00:04:34 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57094 * BMO * (+4686) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=6 |paradigms=[[:Category:Functional_paradigm|functional]] |author=[https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:BMO BMO] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |typesys= |..."
00:16:20 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57095&oldid=57094 * BMO * (+249)
00:22:06 <esowiki> [[User:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57096&oldid=53961 * BMO * (+57)
00:22:19 <esowiki> [[User:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57097&oldid=57096 * BMO * (+1)
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01:20:54 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57098&oldid=56486 * Challenger5 * (+148)
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01:43:20 <Syfer> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
01:43:23 <Syfer> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
01:43:27 <Syfer> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
01:43:29 <Syfer> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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01:59:16 <okdas> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
01:59:20 <okdas> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
01:59:23 <okdas> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
01:59:26 <okdas> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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02:01:21 <Humbedooh24> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
02:01:24 <Humbedooh24> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
02:01:28 <Humbedooh24> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
02:01:31 <Humbedooh24> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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02:21:06 <manish13> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
02:21:09 <manish13> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
02:21:12 <manish13> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
02:21:15 <manish13> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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02:34:31 <mentifis10> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
02:34:34 <mentifis10> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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03:06:44 <quintopia> can we plox set this channel +s for a while
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03:13:59 <Welcome> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
03:14:02 <Welcome> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
03:14:06 <Welcome> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
03:14:09 <Welcome> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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03:16:17 <Adran15> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
03:16:21 <Adran15> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
03:16:24 <Adran15> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
03:16:28 <Adran15> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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03:43:10 <webpigeon22> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
03:43:13 <webpigeon22> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
03:43:16 <webpigeon22> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
03:43:20 <webpigeon22> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:31:09 <eth212> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
04:31:12 <eth212> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
04:31:16 <eth212> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
04:31:19 <eth212> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:33:01 <kl420017> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
04:33:05 <kl420017> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
04:33:05 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57099&oldid=57098 * Ais523 * (-2) /* Implementations */ cat ("unimplemented" needs to be changed to "implemented" when an implementation is added)
04:33:08 <kl420017> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
04:33:11 <kl420017> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:34:46 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57100&oldid=57099 * Ais523 * (+18) /* Commands */ fix the discussion of the error condition
04:40:51 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57101&oldid=56239 * A * (+493) /* HTML / Javascript */
04:45:42 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57102&oldid=57101 * A * (-16) Modifying to make it shorter.
04:46:36 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57103&oldid=57102 * A * (+0) T_T a mess
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04:53:22 <fwilson> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
04:53:26 <fwilson> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
04:53:28 <fwilson> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:57:05 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57104&oldid=57103 * A * (+51) /* HTML / Javascript */
05:00:34 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57105&oldid=57104 * A * (+5) /* HTML / Javascript */
05:17:11 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57106&oldid=54216 * Challenger5 * (+18)
05:19:26 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57107&oldid=57105 * Oerjan * (+1) /* HTML / Javascript */ Fix common bug
05:20:10 <esowiki> [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57108&oldid=53132 * Challenger5 * (+18)
05:24:45 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57109&oldid=57106 * Challenger5 * (+23)
05:25:40 <esowiki> [[MiniPig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57110&oldid=54217 * Challenger5 * (+18)
05:27:19 <esowiki> [[Minscode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57111&oldid=50530 * Challenger5 * (+110)
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05:29:03 <mcintosh16> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:29:07 <mcintosh16> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:29:10 <mcintosh16> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:29:13 <mcintosh16> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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05:31:18 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57112&oldid=57092 * Challenger5 * (+42)
05:32:19 <esowiki> [[Betaload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57113&oldid=54162 * Challenger5 * (+96)
05:33:41 <esowiki> [[Minipy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57114&oldid=50376 * Challenger5 * (+97)
05:35:06 <esowiki> [[Minipy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57115&oldid=57114 * Challenger5 * (+29)
05:35:18 <esowiki> [[Check]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57116&oldid=52019 * Challenger5 * (+96)
05:36:33 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57117&oldid=54508 * Challenger5 * (+92)
05:37:01 <esowiki> [[Betaload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57118&oldid=57113 * Challenger5 * (+25)
05:37:43 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57119&oldid=57117 * Challenger5 * (+29)
05:38:48 <esowiki> [[Momema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57120&oldid=54163 * Challenger5 * (+25)
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05:41:44 <jorik1> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:41:47 <jorik1> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:41:51 <jorik1> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:41:54 <jorik1> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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05:49:58 <radiofree27> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:50:02 <radiofree27> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:50:05 <radiofree27> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:50:08 <radiofree27> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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05:55:40 <guest3546> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:55:43 <guest3546> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:55:47 <guest3546> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:55:50 <guest3546> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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06:38:52 <esowiki> [[Momema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57121&oldid=57120 * Challenger5 * (+2590)
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07:03:09 <red-00123> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:03:12 <red-00123> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:03:16 <red-00123> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:03:20 <red-00123> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:07:29 <beaver6> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:07:33 <beaver6> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:07:36 <beaver6> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:07:40 <beaver6> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
07:09:40 <int-e> fizzie: if you're around, could you consider something like +q $~a or +r? This spam is getting a bit out of hand right now, and the spammers aren't even caught by Sigyn anymore because, either because they're staying away from the big channels now or because all those channels are blocking these messages so Sigyn can't see them (I don't know which it is).
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07:17:42 <guntbert24> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:17:45 <guntbert24> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:17:49 <guntbert24> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:17:52 <guntbert24> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:21:25 <janus29> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:21:29 <janus29> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:21:32 <janus29> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:21:35 <janus29> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:22:54 <dwC--> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:22:54 <dwC--> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:22:54 <dwC--> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:22:58 <dwC--> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:25:34 <int-e> FireFly: mniip: grumble: oh you have power here as well
07:26:29 <int-e> (I think? Or is adding freenode-staff to the access list cosmetic?)
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07:27:42 <Yoda6> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:27:46 <Yoda6> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:27:49 <Yoda6> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:27:52 <Yoda6> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:34:58 <mniip> int-e, "freenode-staff" is cosmetic
07:36:09 <int-e> but yeah I guess it should be *!*@freenode/staff/* to be effective
07:46:28 * Taneb still ill but less so
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07:47:38 <SakiiR17> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:47:42 <SakiiR17> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:47:45 <SakiiR17> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:47:48 <SakiiR17> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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08:03:00 <matze16> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
08:03:00 <matze16> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
08:03:04 <matze16> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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08:20:20 <wob_jonas> oh great, our channel is hit by those spambots freenode warned about
08:20:29 <wob_jonas> https://freenode.net/news/spambot-attack
08:21:53 <wob_jonas> This is why I should make a custom IRC client, which facilitates retroactively hiding those spam messages from the history
08:23:32 <wob_jonas> They're probably using a nice botnet of computers they easily infected with malware
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08:49:25 <Turska-13> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
08:49:28 <Turska-13> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
08:49:31 <Turska-13> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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09:19:09 <VM_21> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
09:19:12 <VM_21> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
09:19:15 <VM_21> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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09:51:57 <siso_> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
09:52:00 <siso_> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
09:52:04 <siso_> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
09:52:07 <siso_> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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10:42:00 <NvpkD1y7Ez> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
10:42:03 <NvpkD1y7Ez> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
10:42:08 <NvpkD1y7Ez> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
10:42:10 <NvpkD1y7Ez> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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10:51:29 <kg13> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
10:51:33 <kg13> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
10:51:36 <kg13> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
10:51:39 <kg13> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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11:07:06 <rud0lf16> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
11:07:10 <rud0lf16> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
11:07:13 <rud0lf16> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
11:07:16 <rud0lf16> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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11:11:57 <kl420025> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
11:12:01 <kl420025> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
11:12:05 <kl420025> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
11:12:08 <kl420025> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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11:14:41 <ByronJohnson4> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
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11:18:52 <lino> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
11:18:52 <lino> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
11:18:52 <lino> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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11:26:31 <fizzie> Ooh, we're big enough to get spam.
11:27:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +r.
11:28:14 <fizzie> Let's maybe do that for now?
11:30:58 <fizzie> If you know +s would be enough to stop them from coming, LMK.
11:32:51 <int-e> yeah, +r or +q $~a are the recommended ways, I think (the latter lets people join but not speak)
11:33:16 <int-e> (people without nameserv registration that is)
11:34:03 <int-e> fizzie: do you think we should have *!*@freenode/staff/* on the access list, maybe?
11:34:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q $~a.
11:34:36 <fizzie> I guess the quiet is nicer.
11:34:54 <int-e> fizzie: don't forget the -r or it will make no difference
11:35:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
11:35:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -r.
11:35:27 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
11:36:12 <fizzie> I set it via mlock originally, but I guess just removing the mlock doesn't actually make ChanServ do anything, and I wasn't sure we want -r enforced like that.
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11:38:14 <fizzie> Now we'll assume every new person joining is a spammer, though. :/
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11:39:18 <int-e> yeah there's no good solution
11:39:54 <int-e> (but at least that traffic shouldn't highlight the channel)
11:42:41 <fizzie> Added *!*@freenode/staff/* to the access list as well, with the flags +voAti per some random recommendation.
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12:10:58 <FireFly> I think just +o would enough (or I guess +vo would be more common maybe)
12:11:25 <FireFly> I forget what the other ones do offhand :D
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12:15:27 <int-e> FireFly: +i may be helpful to get in (if some rogue op makes the channel invite only or password protected)... +t is probably useless; +A makes no difference for a channel with publicly visible access list. but +o should typically be enough.
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12:22:07 <wob_jonas> I wish IRC added a good way to uniquely identify client connections to other client connections even while you don't see them on a channel. This could be done as an opt-in extension, of which the server already supports a few.
12:22:51 <wob_jonas> Then the freenode staff and their bots could mark connections as spam after the fact even if they quit first, or other moderators you trust could do that too, and you could have your IRC client hide their messages even after they're alredy received.
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12:23:20 <wob_jonas> If I make an irc client, I'll at least hide the messages from users who were too slow and I see the K-line for spam message.
12:23:50 <wob_jonas> The quit messages are formatted specially by the server so the K-line messages or similar can't be faked by normal users.
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13:35:29 <esowiki> [[User:Kamish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57122&oldid=54890 * Kamish * (+0)
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13:40:11 <arseniiv> neat quote: “If you make a comment here, it had better be either true and necessary, true and kind, or kind and necessary.”
13:43:32 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I recognize that. That's from the policy http://slatestarcodex.com/comments/
13:48:18 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57123&oldid=56962 * Kamish * (+557)
13:49:14 <shachaf> Isn't necessary sufficient?
13:50:25 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57124&oldid=57123 * Kamish * (+28)
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13:51:07 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, see the details in that policy I linked
13:52:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's a private forum where posting is a privilage, not a right you own, so you can never claim that it's necessary for you to participate. they can just ban you if you don't keep the rules.
13:53:11 <shachaf> "Necessary in that it’s on topic, and not only contributes something to the discussion but contributes more to the discussion than it’s likely to take away through starting a fight."
13:53:12 <wob_jonas> Privately owned and moderated forum that is, not private for participation or reading.
13:53:25 <shachaf> That sounds like it has nothing to do with necessity?
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14:53:06 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57125&oldid=57095 * BMO * (+2388)
14:54:25 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57126&oldid=57125 * BMO * (+33)
14:55:19 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57127&oldid=57126 * BMO * (+3)
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16:31:08 <quintopia> fizzie: +s is enough. it works for other channels.
16:35:54 <quintopia> they've started caching the channel list nowl
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18:01:15 <esowiki> [[FlogScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57128&oldid=44535 * BradensEsolangs * (+26)
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18:54:18 <izabera> figalli won the fields medal!
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18:59:40 <esowiki> [[VogLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57129 * BradensEsolangs * (+574) Created page with "VogLang is an esolang conceived by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden/Ikura]]. The programs are Vogon poems, and the nonsense words are changed via a set of rules into a few instru..."
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21:54:21 <wob_jonas> Youtube now has video ads, overlay picture ads, and these little picture ads that show up in the bottom right outside the video area, and the latter are getting terrible,
21:54:49 <wob_jonas> perhaps because everyone who actually has sense uses one of the first two possibilities, and because there's a smaller choice for Hungary.
21:55:20 <wob_jonas> They've even ran an ad for what looked very much like a take your money scam, with no obvious way to report ads.
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22:03:38 <fizzie`> wob_jonas: You might try the left sidebar "Send feedback" option and then highlighting the ad in the attached screenshot. I've no idea where that feedback goes, though. It would be better if there was a more direct reporting link. It's a shame there's not a reporting option in the small "Why this ad?" infobox.
22:04:08 <wob_jonas> fizzie`: there used to be one, I think
22:04:27 <wob_jonas> there used to be two little buttons on that ad
22:04:34 <wob_jonas> and I think the other one might have led to a reporting interface
22:04:46 <fizzie`> Right. I don't remember seeing it in YouTube, but I'm sure I've seen it in some other surface.
22:04:49 <wob_jonas> there might still be a hidden option, but I think that ad no longer runs
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22:06:17 <fizzie> There's still two buttons (the AdChoices triangle-i and an X that has a "Report this ad" button) on a regular Google ad banner on a random third-party site.
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23:27:37 <Sgeo> Factor 0.98 released
23:27:52 <Sgeo> I haven't thought about Factor in a long time
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23:48:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[VogLang]]": Copyright violation: content was: "VogLang is an esolang conceived by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden/Ikura]]. The programs are Vogon poems, and th...", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/BradensEsolangs|BradensEsolangs]]" ([[User talk:BradensEsolangs|talk]])
23:50:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:BradensEsolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57130 * Ais523 * (+545) /* VogLang */ new section
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02:36:22 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57131&oldid=57124 * Oerjan * (-585) That's just evil formatting. Also order.
02:36:32 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57132&oldid=57131 * Oerjan * (+583) /* Radixal!!!! */ Fix (assuming the code itself works)
02:38:08 <oerjan> re latest oots, i'm worried about the vampire that got away.
02:40:17 <oerjan> assuming she knows what to do
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02:40:59 <lambdabot> ENVA 020220Z 13007KT CAVOK 12/10 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 16008KT
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04:39:53 <oerjan> hellopia. temperatures are starting to sink down to normal
04:42:39 <oerjan> however, there must be heat stored in the building because the apartment goes up to uncomfortable again once i close the door.
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11:24:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57133&oldid=52865 * Wastl * (+775) /* DEF instruction parameter order */ new section
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11:42:40 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57134&oldid=57112 * Wastl * (+971) added interpreter link and proof of Turing-completeness
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12:09:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VOID * New user account
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12:24:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dngnogu * New user account
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12:43:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57135&oldid=57087 * Dngnogu * (+271) /* Introductions */
12:44:06 <esowiki> [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57136&oldid=49990 * Dngnogu * (+1) /* Implemented */
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13:43:18 <wob_jonas> the Stylish plugin for Mozilla is great because it lets me make ugly sites more readable on a somewhat permanent basis, but its new built-in warnings are very annoying.
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13:44:22 <wob_jonas> it warns about selectors I use being apparently overspecified. but I'm deliberately use such selectors because I'm overriding the crazy overly specific selectors and overly redundant rules of the site's CSS.
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13:55:43 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57137 * A * (+2059) Created page with "==Syntax== ===Conditions=== The if-else directives if, ifdef, ifndef, else, elif and end can be used for conditional compilation. if VERBOSE >= 2 print("trace message");..."
13:56:09 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57138&oldid=57137 * A * (+5) /* Syntax */
13:56:28 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57139&oldid=57138 * A * (+2) /* Identifiers */
13:56:39 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57140&oldid=57139 * A * (-42) /* Identifiers */
13:59:00 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57141&oldid=57140 * A * (-294)
13:59:27 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57142&oldid=57141 * A * (-15)
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20:41:15 <tswett> Allow me to introduce...
20:41:19 <tswett> Oversized digit notation!
20:41:34 <tswett> A number within brackets indicates a single digit whose value is that number.
20:42:05 <tswett> So, for example, 1[12]6 is a three-digit number where the digit in the 100s place is 1, the digit in the 10s place is 12, and the digit in the 1s place is 6.
20:43:07 <tswett> You can use this notation to represent intermediate results in arithmetic before carrying has been performed.
20:43:15 <tswett> 14 * 14 = 18[16] = 196
20:43:30 <tswett> 15 * 15 = 1[10][25] = 225
20:45:02 <imode> huh, now that is interesting.
20:45:17 <arseniiv> (but why calling it oversized, is it more like overflown?)
20:46:15 <tswett> You can nest it to make weird stuff like 1[1[10]].
20:47:28 <tswett> Sometimes oversized digit notation corresponds to non-standard English words...
20:47:38 <tswett> 19 = nineteen, 1[10] = tenteen, 1[11] = eleventeen
20:47:51 <tswett> 1[1[10]] = tenteenteen, of course.
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20:51:32 <myname> tswett: that's basically what an abacus does
20:53:22 <myname> depending on the version you have, only up to 14, though
20:54:28 <arseniiv> (btw there’s a notation my friend had suggested a while ago, "" = 1, "[]" = nthprime("") = 2, "[[]]" = nthprime("[]") = 3, "[][]" = "[]" × "[]" = 4, "[[[]]]" = 5, "[][[]]" = 6 etc.)
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20:56:36 <tswett> arseniiv: hmmm, I have an idea similar to that one.
20:56:47 <tswett> Same thing, except that it's the successor function instead of nthprime.
20:56:58 <tswett> Concatenation is multiplication and parentheses indicate adding 1.
20:57:14 <myname> which is like oe of the basic definitions of natural numbers based on sets
20:57:17 <tswett> So () is 2, (()) is 3, ()() is 4, (()()) is 5.
21:02:17 <arseniiv> there are many representations for the same number, though: ()() = ((())). In the previous thing, there are also many representations, but the only one modulo swapping balanced bracked groups. It’s why I didn’t forget :D
21:03:34 <tswett> ()()()() = ()()((())) = ()((((((())))))) = ((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))
21:04:04 <arseniiv> I love balanced bracket strings
21:04:43 <imode> there's something beautiful about them.
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21:17:10 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57143&oldid=57142 * A * (+68)
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21:35:09 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57144&oldid=57143 * A * (-727)
21:36:35 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57145&oldid=57144 * A * (-69)
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21:46:59 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57146&oldid=57145 * A * (+317)
21:47:21 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57147&oldid=57146 * A * (+3)
21:55:12 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57148&oldid=57147 * A * (+522)
22:01:56 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57149&oldid=57148 * A * (+160)
22:03:01 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57150&oldid=57149 * A * (+37) /* Computational Class */
22:06:21 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57151&oldid=56998 * A * (+33)
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22:24:00 <esowiki> [[Recursoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57152 * A * (+1173) Created page with "'''Recursoin''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]]. Variables are defined like: var = bar {| |- | valign="top" | <code>+<br>-</code> | valign="top" | do ma..."
22:26:00 <esowiki> [[Recursoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57153&oldid=57152 * A * (-176)
22:34:15 <esowiki> [[Recursoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57154&oldid=57153 * A * (+339)
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22:40:24 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57155&oldid=57012 * A * (+0) Your C example has a flaw:you should use "and".
22:43:38 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57156&oldid=57155 * A * (-32) :( I found another: it is unnecessary to print"number=".
22:47:08 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57157&oldid=57156 * A * (-18) Hmm...Just directly print "Fizz", "Buzz", or "FizzBuzz". No need to output the number.
22:53:31 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57158&oldid=57157 * A * (+22) Some small improvements:I evaluated the expression"(i%3)&&(i%5)" into "(i%15)", making it more readable.
22:57:09 <fizzie> I'm sure on some channel we used to have a bot that made sure there's always as many (s as there are of )s.
22:57:12 <fizzie> It's important, a channel might tip over if the balance isn't maintained.
22:58:47 <shachaf> What happens if you write ) before (?
22:59:03 <shachaf> Also what happened to HackEso?
22:59:28 <boily> )))))))))))))))))))))
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23:46:10 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57159&oldid=56984 * A * (+27)
23:47:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57160&oldid=57075 * A * (+19) I don't know how to place chinese here.
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23:53:02 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57161&oldid=57151 * A * (+261)
23:54:43 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57162&oldid=57161 * A * (+19)
23:55:21 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57163&oldid=57162 * A * (+0) Mistake
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00:11:14 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57164&oldid=56736 * A * (-8) My description is too complicated.
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00:42:23 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57165&oldid=57164 * A * (+196) Include more understandable Brainfuck implementation
00:48:29 <Sgeo> I should totally try to design my own Tcl OO system
00:49:12 <Sgeo> Someone on Twitter reminded me Tcl existed, and I have it stuck in my head now
00:49:30 <Sgeo> The model of objects where they're just strings that know what to do via {*} fascinates me
00:49:48 <Sgeo> e.g. {*}$someObject somemethod
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00:50:05 <Sgeo> $someObject could just be a lambda that switches on the somemethod argument
00:50:26 <shachaf> Why not make an OO system for Ada?
00:50:39 <Sgeo> No need to worry about garbage collection in this model, unlike other models where each object is a command, and Tcl can't just clean up commands
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00:50:53 <shachaf> Also I'm thinking lambdas are a little bit scow for control flow.
00:51:00 <shachaf> In most languages, at least.
00:51:10 <shachaf> This is mostly unrelated to what you're saying.
00:51:37 * oerjan sics GL Steele on shachaf
00:51:38 <shachaf> Ruby has a special case to make things like this work: def f(a); a.each {|x| return true if x == 5 }; return false; end
00:52:13 <shachaf> Where that's a lambda that can return from the scope it was created in. If you return a lambda like that, it fails at runtime.
00:52:24 <shachaf> (You could also make it use continuations, but...)
00:52:37 <Sgeo> Tcl control flow is string and eval based.
00:53:21 <shachaf> Is there anything that uses lambdas for control flow for this sort of thing? How does it work?
00:54:53 <imode> I should learn Tcl. seems the interpreters for it are pretty complicated though.
00:56:18 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57166&oldid=57165 * A * (-4) /* Examples */
00:56:43 <Sgeo> I suggest learning it properly via tutorials or other documentation, rather than via osmosis of real life examples. It's the sort of language where things one might not expect to make a difference can
00:57:17 <imode> how would it compare with something like forth, which is similarly untyped.
00:57:35 <imode> mainly interested in the implementation of the language. can I write a Tcl in a weekend?
00:58:10 <Sgeo> I'm not an implement a language person. I think it would be simple to implement the syntax rules, at least.
01:00:44 <imode> iamcalledbob and A should be banned from the wiki, they've created a lot of junk articles. cmv.
01:05:55 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57167&oldid=57166 * A * (+122) /* Examples */
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01:08:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57168&oldid=57160 * Oerjan * (+0) ginorst + cdeeginnors
01:08:36 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57169&oldid=57167 * A * (-122)
01:08:47 <oerjan> hm esowiki isn't ... oh
01:09:25 <oerjan> HackEso isn't responding, though.
01:09:34 <imode> like there's literally a language called "String rewriting paradigm".
01:09:48 <imode> that qualifies as a stub. someone's trolling.
01:09:54 <oerjan> oh wait that's caught by my pribate +R
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01:10:22 <shachaf> It seems that the spam has stopped for now.
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01:11:25 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57170&oldid=57169 * A * (-5) /* Examples */
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01:13:45 <oerjan> `echo hi are you there
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01:14:23 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, approximately that is what a yard is. More precisely, it is three feet.
01:14:26 <oerjan> > "is lambdabot registered?"
01:14:31 <shachaf> Since lambdas don't seem work very well for control constructs without hacks or continuations, how should user-defined control constructs work?
01:14:46 <oerjan> fizzie: it might be a good idea to register them, just in case.
01:15:06 <shachaf> One answer is to scrap early return etc. and make people use Either or something if they want it. Which is almost back to using (delimited) continuations.
01:15:20 <shachaf> Another answer is lisp-style macros, I guess.
01:15:22 <zzo38> To check if someone is registered with NickServ you can use the NS INFO command.
01:15:32 <shachaf> Are there more standard answers?
01:15:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i think i'm not going to open the floodgates without some information that there's a more network-wide solution.
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01:16:17 <imode> has this channel been hit by the spambots as well?
01:16:21 <imode> haven't been around.
01:16:29 <zzo38> (The cloak I suppose also reveals being registered with NickServ, although it is possible to be registered and not cloaked.)
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01:20:42 <oerjan> hm fungot isn't even here to test
01:21:05 <oerjan> although i guess it would also be on zem.fi
01:22:38 <oerjan> imode: so it's now set +q $~a which also gives some of the bots problems
01:23:59 <oerjan> and also we all seem to have been set +R which means the bots cannot reach us in private either
01:24:23 <imode> that's good, I suppose.
01:24:33 <imode> you have to wonder what the dude's motives are...
01:24:47 <zzo38> You can unset the +R mode on yourself if you want to receive the message, or use ACCEPT command
01:24:51 <oerjan> oh i wasn't thinking about the spam bots when i said "bots", but our trusty channel ones
01:25:13 <imode> not so good then. :P
01:26:10 <oerjan> so i added an exception for fizzie's domain, although he might want to register them too (i guess that adds extra hassle when logging in)
01:26:35 <Sgeo> https://wiki.tcl.tk/10225 is the sort of thing that scares me about Tcl
01:31:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57171&oldid=56365 * A * (+122) /* swap x, y */
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01:37:40 <oerjan> that Preprocessor proof is so obviously wrong, sigh
01:38:11 <oerjan> (he also misunderstood my proof that he's trying to base it on, although i guess the comment about 8 fixes that.)
01:41:20 <oerjan> ok maybe that's sane if e can actually mutate variables, but then it's not much of a CPP derivative...
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01:44:40 <oerjan> the way in which mediawiki's diffs can completely fail to match identical parts because of slight spacing differences is really annoying.
01:44:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57172&oldid=57171 * A * (+28) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
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01:45:25 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57173&oldid=57172 * A * (+41) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
01:46:12 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57174&oldid=57134 * Oerjan * (-1) rm newline that breaks the stupid diff
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01:50:01 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57175&oldid=57173 * A * (+1) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
01:50:45 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57176&oldid=57174 * Oerjan * (+12) wikify sections
01:51:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57177&oldid=57175 * A * (+65) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
01:52:12 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57178&oldid=57177 * A * (+5) /* Wrapping */
01:52:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57179&oldid=57178 * A * (-3) /* swap x, y */
01:55:03 <oerjan> well in obvious hindsight...
01:57:21 <oerjan> hm why are there esowiki announcements in the logs...
01:57:32 <oerjan> perhaps it's actually supposed to be registered.
01:57:47 <oerjan> or maybe it doesn't get quieted unless it rejoins...
02:00:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57180&oldid=57179 * A * (+90) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */
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02:08:45 <oerjan> hm this is weird. there's a message from esowiki in the logs from several minutes after i joined that i haven't seen.
02:09:16 <oerjan> it's also the logging bot isn't it?
02:09:29 <oerjan> so it's been faking it :P
02:11:18 <oerjan> indeed, the logs have my own edit that got me wondering what was up
02:11:48 <mahaa> A good affair, Bravo!
02:15:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57181&oldid=57180 * A * (+30) /* x = x - y */
02:16:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57182&oldid=57181 * A * (-30) /* Non-wrapping */
02:17:17 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57183&oldid=57182 * A * (+29) /* Wrapping */
02:17:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57184&oldid=57183 * A * (-19) /* x = x + y */
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02:59:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57185&oldid=57184 * A * (+77) /* Input a decimal number */
03:10:03 <shachaf> Go and C++17 support initializers for if, as in "if (int x = f(); x > 0) { ... }". Is there any language that supports initializers for while, as in "while (int c = getchar(); c != EOF) { ... }"?
03:11:17 <izabera> surely you can do that with c macros
03:12:40 <shachaf> I mean, y'know, sort of. With all the usual caveats about C macros.
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03:13:48 <pikhq> I don't know. I mean, you can get the same effect with for loops, but...
03:14:03 <shachaf> Can you, without writing "getchar()" twice?
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03:23:41 <Sgeo> proc lambda {arguments body args} {
03:23:41 <Sgeo> return [list ::apply [list $arguments $body] {*}$args]
03:23:54 <Sgeo> https://github.com/tcltk/tcllib/blob/master/modules/lambda/lambda.tcl
03:28:15 <pikhq> Oh, right, I forgot about Tcl.
03:28:29 <pikhq> Tcl is, uh, decidedly odd.
03:29:19 <pikhq> Though I can't remember, doesn't while in Tcl execute the condition in the calling stack frame?
03:29:51 <pikhq> i.e. basically like it did an uplevel expr $cond
03:30:55 <Sgeo> uplevel 1 I think
03:31:23 <Sgeo> I think I remember you talking about liking Tcl? I liked it for a while until I found myself incapable of writing programs that don't memory leak.
03:31:32 <Sgeo> Mutable locations don't get garbage collected.
03:31:52 <Sgeo> (Since every mutable thing has to have a name)
03:31:56 <pikhq> Just because I like Tcl doesn't mean I can't admit it's decidedly odd.
03:32:03 <pikhq> In fact, its oddness is part of why I like it. :)
03:33:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57186&oldid=57185 * A * (+108) /* Summing 1~n */
03:53:43 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57187&oldid=57158 * A * (+161) Add Python implementation
03:57:40 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57188&oldid=57187 * A * (+1) Shorten My Code
04:00:52 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57189&oldid=57188 * A * (-2) /* Examples */
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06:12:31 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57190&oldid=57150 * A * (-8) Well, since there is no changing, it is turing-complete.
06:15:37 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57191&oldid=57190 * A * (+28) Only 2 commands, it is a Turing-tarpit.
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06:27:44 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57192&oldid=57191 * A * (-1) Uh, operation is wrong
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06:28:35 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57193&oldid=57192 * A * (+45)
06:31:42 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57194&oldid=57193 * A * (-7)
06:33:23 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57195&oldid=57194 * A * (-6)
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06:38:03 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57196&oldid=57195 * A * (+7)
06:40:51 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57197&oldid=57196 * A * (-94)
06:49:23 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57198&oldid=57197 * A * (-26)
06:58:23 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57199&oldid=57189 * Zzo38 * (+155) TeX
07:00:06 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57200 * A * (+1964) Copy my text first...
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07:32:36 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57201&oldid=57200 * A * (-1964) Blanked the page
07:33:23 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57202&oldid=57198 * A * (-144) Examples are useless
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07:37:50 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57203&oldid=57202 * A * (+22) Else can be represented by if
07:46:45 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57204&oldid=57201 * A * (+1842)
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07:54:14 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57205&oldid=57204 * A * (-125)
07:54:33 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57206&oldid=57205 * A * (+9)
07:56:59 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57207&oldid=57206 * A * (-2)
07:57:27 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57208&oldid=57163 * A * (+26)
07:59:16 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57209&oldid=57207 * A * (+9) /* Syntax */
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08:02:57 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57210&oldid=57209 * A * (-19)
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08:28:57 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57211&oldid=57210 * A * (+75)
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08:29:30 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Good point, I didn't even consider them bots.
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08:42:04 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57212&oldid=57211 * A * (+1107)
08:46:01 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57213&oldid=57212 * A * (-600)
08:46:47 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57214&oldid=57203 * A * (-85)
08:48:04 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57215&oldid=57214 * A * (+0)
08:48:28 <int-e> Can I say that I prefer quality over quantity when it comes to esolangs?
09:26:52 <fizzie> Huh, what's happened to fungot?
09:26:59 <fizzie> Oh, right, I restarted the machine.
09:29:06 <fizzie> I have a bouncer in front it now, so when it joins, it's not going to actually be responsive yet. Just thought I'd warn you.
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09:30:41 <fizzie> fungot: Feeling all normal again?
09:30:42 <fungot> fizzie: and we can multiply quantum states with numbers.)
09:30:55 <fizzie> Subsystems nominal, I guess.
09:31:23 <shachaf> fungot: what kinds of numbers twh
09:31:24 <fungot> shachaf: like international paper sizes?' thread. one of his friends to build an entire scheme program and a scheme list is kind of weird. even though that " should" visit espoo today, since i don't notice any fault with the gui
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10:00:33 <fizzie> Later it turns out the secret to solving noise issues in quantum computing was multiplying quantum states with international paper sizes.
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10:07:46 <Taneb> If you could get an A3-sized qubit I think a lot of things would work differently
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10:15:29 <Phantom_Hoover> hey they finally found an elementary knightship in the game of life
10:18:05 <Taneb> I know what some of those words mean! That sounds neat
10:18:22 <Taneb> (what's a knightship? what does it mean for one to be elementary?)
10:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> knightship = travels along a vector other than (1,0) and (1,1) (modulo rotation/reflection ofc.)
10:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elementary = not a giant million cell machine engineered to build a copy of itself along a certain vector then take itself apart
10:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> it's predictably very weird looking http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Sir_Robin
10:22:24 <esowiki> [[Obcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57216 * Wastl * (+20) make redirect to ObCode
10:28:43 <esowiki> [[Functoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57217 * A * (+695) Created page with "It is inspired by [[Post-preprocessor]]. ==Syntax(= command)== f(x)=1/x`function` f(a)=`Put your code here`,f() (a!=0) `nothing here` (a==0)`if statement` a=0`variabl..."
10:29:27 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57218&oldid=57208 * A * (+14)
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12:20:08 <int-e> `paste wisdom/limerick
12:20:09 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/wisdom/limerick
12:21:07 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is alphanumer1c.
12:21:09 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is alphanumer1c.
12:24:46 <HackEso> 1133) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
12:24:56 <int-e> So that's where it is.
12:25:17 <HackEso> wc: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'wc --help' for more information.
12:25:35 <HackEso> <zzo38> Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. \ <Aearnus> i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft
12:37:05 <fizzie> int-e: https://zem.fi/tmp/quotes.png
12:38:03 <fizzie> Source: hg log -T "{rev} {node|short}\n" quotes | tac | while read rev hash; do printf "%s\t%s\n" $rev $(hg cat -r $rev quotes | wc -l); done | tee ~/tmp/quotes.csv
12:39:14 <fizzie> A time axis might be nice as well.
12:41:44 <fizzie> ...huh, I didn't actually use the commit hash, and didn't notice because -r accepted the revision number as well.
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12:50:37 <fizzie> By date: https://zem.fi/tmp/quotes2.png
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13:03:43 <int-e> Well I still think that the limit should be 1336. :P
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16:21:58 <HackEso> olist 1132: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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16:49:56 <Sgeo> *slaps roof of HackEgo* this bad boy can fit so much olist in it
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16:55:08 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
17:07:56 <int-e> I sure hope so; computers get even more irritable in the rain than most people.
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20:48:29 <zzo38> I made this computer game recently: http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/MEGAPANE.ZIP
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21:01:05 <int-e> hmm it's not entirely terrible :P
21:07:32 <int-e> What's that real number though? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/mp.png
21:09:12 <zzo38> The ratio of score to rows.
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21:31:43 <shachaf> zzo38: I can't figure out how to make dosbox work well with my high-DPI screen.
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21:50:24 <int-e> shachaf: I have something like this in my .dosbox/dosbox-0.74.conf: http://paste.debian.net/1036624/ (those are the settings that I modified)
21:52:46 <shachaf> Oh, I tried similar settings before but not quite those ones.
21:53:02 <int-e> (this may still be rather small for you but you can adjust the window size accordingly; keeping it 4:3 and multiples of 640x480 are probably a good idea)
21:54:54 <shachaf> Is there a language similar to C or C++ that has every function taking one argument, which might be a struct/tuple containing multiple values?
21:57:06 <zzo38> I don't know of any.
21:59:03 <shachaf> I'm wondering how to make it work with various things, like named arguments and varargs (and default arguments?).
21:59:44 <shachaf> Of course you can have a calling convention that turns this into the regular C ABI.
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00:52:07 <lambdabot> fizzie said 16h 22m 37s ago: Good point, I didn't even consider them bots.
00:53:57 <HackEso> 11585:2018-07-21 <oerjän> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580:2018-07-01 <alercäh> addquote <zzo38> Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. \ 11551:2018-05-08 <oerjän> addquote <shachaf> Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old <Taneb> shachaf, not at all <Taneb> I would never suggest that i
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01:17:48 <oerjan> the last panel of the last oots isn't entirely reassuring.
01:32:14 <oerjan> oh thank god, there was a preference setting to hide the left navigation bar on PPCG again
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05:03:09 <zzo38> If you want to make a total of floating numbers without losing precision must you put them in order, or accumulate them by log2 or whatever? (You might also have to consider the positive and negative numbers separately?)
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09:01:10 <int-e> `learn Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi!
09:01:12 <HackEso> Learned 'hodl': Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi!
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11:48:04 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: wow. that is something. (re Sir Robin in game of life)
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12:07:20 <esowiki> [[RANDo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57219&oldid=54869 * Kamish * (+54)
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13:23:12 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57220&oldid=53097 * B jonas * (+147) clarify that this is not an esoteric language
13:23:41 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57221&oldid=30898 * B jonas * (+410) credit Conway with Turing-completeness; add like ten categories; link LifeWiki
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13:38:03 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57222&oldid=57221 * B jonas * (+187) mention still active research
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13:47:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:RAM0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57223 * B jonas * (+612) a mistaken statement
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14:05:40 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57224&oldid=57222 * B jonas * (+1346) explicit definition; program size
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14:18:27 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57225&oldid=57224 * B jonas * (-4) consistent spelling of neighbor and behavior
14:21:12 <esowiki> [[Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57226 * B jonas * (+1478) Created page with "'''Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton''' is a [[Cellular automaton]] published in 1966. The state of the automaton is a square grid filling the whole plane, in which..."
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14:28:07 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57227&oldid=45557 * B jonas * (+482) history
14:29:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57228&oldid=57168 * B jonas * (+48)
14:34:51 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57229&oldid=57227 * B jonas * (+454) /* Relation to esoteric programming */ clarify that every CA is an esolang
14:37:05 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57230&oldid=57229 * B jonas * (+2) /* Relation to esoteric programming */
14:39:47 <esowiki> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57231&oldid=49933 * B jonas * (+406) add cellular automata
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14:50:09 <wob_jonas> I was wondering what the oldest esolang with still active research is. Game of Life is definitely old and has a large active research community, and dc might qualify and might just predate it. But then I realized that lambda calculus, or lambda calculus with some specific evaluation order, probably trumps anything else.
14:51:52 <wob_jonas> Them and Turing-machines. They were both first published in 1936.
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15:31:31 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57232&oldid=57091 * Plokmijnuhby * (+327)
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15:42:26 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57233&oldid=57232 * Plokmijnuhby * (+1)
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16:13:27 <zzo38> 2HI have implemented a SQLite extension to download files from the internet by using libcurl, but it involves a rather klugy way to detect if sqlite3_interrupt() has been called.
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17:47:55 <zzo38> I think someone ask about SQLite extension to use Swiss Ephemeris (to see the example code), and I have posted it now (although some features are not currently implemented, including sunrise/sunset times, and some other stuff)
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19:12:47 <wob_jonas> You've all heard the tale of Scheherazade, in which an evil sultan vows that every evening he would marry a beautiful maiden and every morning he would get that maiden executed?
19:13:28 <wob_jonas> Apparently in at least some variants, the sultan actually vowed that every evening he'd marry the *most* beautiful maiden of his empire.
19:14:37 <wob_jonas> But in reality, wouldn't that cause one of those unending arms races, when eventually every remaining maiden tries to deliberately make themselves more and more ugly, to avoid this fate?
19:17:10 <wob_jonas> I mean, maybe it would, and the sultan was stupid to make such a vow no matter what and the simplest solution would have been to get him assasinated as soon as possible after people find that he is willing to follow through his vow, but still, I haven't heard of that arms race part in any retelling of the story.
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19:55:25 <zzo38> What if his opinion who is most beautiful may differ somewhat from one of those maiden? Or if it is about equal and is difficult to know?
19:56:48 <int-e> they should just ask the mirror from Snow White.
19:57:03 <Taneb> wob_jonas, what if it was an environment with commonplace arranged marriages and the status gained from having a daughter marry the sultan is worth the high chance of her execution
19:57:25 <wob_jonas> I imagine that if beauty is subjective and its measure used by the oath is not easy to predict, that would just speed up the arms race because every maiden will want to make herself so obviously ugly that by no matter what measure she isn't among the top ten thousand most beautiful ones.
19:57:31 <int-e> Taneb: worth to whome though...
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19:57:51 <Taneb> int-e, the people arranging the marriage (probably the poor girl's father)
19:58:28 <wob_jonas> Right, but the maidens themselves would probably find a way to become ugly without the permission of their fater. The surviving girls at least, soon.
19:58:38 <int-e> Taneb: So unfair. Almost like real life.
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20:51:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:RAM0
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20:52:00 <ais523> oh, yes, I was kind-of assuming you couldn't put an oracle there
20:52:20 <ais523> (also there's not much point linking me to talk pages of my own languages, I'm likely to notice anything put there anyway)
20:52:50 <wob_jonas> but since you asked lambdabot for @messages, I corrected him when he said no messages today
20:52:56 <ais523> what I meant was that the language is still TC if it's initialised randomly
20:53:21 <esowiki> [[RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57234&oldid=54505 * Ais523 * (+16) /* Data storage */ clarify ambiguous sentence
20:53:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57235&oldid=57223 * Ais523 * (+247) clarified
20:53:55 <wob_jonas> what? then it has a randomness source... hmm wait, that doesn't increase the power of R. right.
20:54:19 <wob_jonas> although it's not obvious what "initialize randomly" means in a machine with bigints in each cell
20:54:43 <int-e> wob_jonas: it's not a source of randomness if you can make no assumptions about the memory... it might be initialized.
20:55:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: oh wait. sorry, what ais523 wrote here and on the page are different things
20:55:42 <ais523> yes, I wrote it a bit more clearly on the page
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20:56:15 <int-e> yeah, the page looks fine to me
20:59:37 <ais523> @tell tswett re your oversized digit notation, have you seen hyperbinary? it's basically binary except you're allowed to use 2 as a digit as well, and is mostly relevant as a method of defining the stern-brocot sequence
21:02:38 <ais523> @tell Phantom_Hoover I think "elementary" in cellular automata means that it isn't a collection of smaller components; there were already known Game of Life knightships that didn't rely on universal constructors, e.g. the half-baked knightship, which relied on multiple knightship-ish components that sent beams of generalised-gliders out to stabilise each other
21:04:21 <wob_jonas> That exclamation by Phantom_Hoover made me make some improvements to the Game of Life article on our wiki, although of course it still doesn't contain much of the vast knowledge mathematicians now have of Game of Life.
21:04:49 <wob_jonas> Or more like, inspired me to make some improvements, seeing that such a popular esolang has such a bad article.
21:05:06 <ais523> there's an entire wiki for the game of life
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21:05:15 <ais523> so there's not much point duplicating it here
21:05:24 <wob_jonas> yes, I linked it. two wikis at least, I think.
21:05:52 <wob_jonas> It was still worth to increase the article from stub length, and may still be worth to grow it a bit, just because it's such an important language.
21:06:06 <ais523> <Phantom_Hoover> elementary = not a giant million cell machine engineered to build a copy of itself along a certain vector then take itself apart
21:06:12 <wob_jonas> There are entire books on the Lambda calculus too, but it deserves a good article on our wiki still.
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21:07:05 <wob_jonas> And the Sir Robin article that PH linked to has the word "elementary" linked to a page where that concept is clearly described, and it is what ais says it means.
21:07:23 <Phantom_Hoover> tbqh the game of life isn't that interesting from an esolang perspective because a very small subset of what's known about it suffices for TCness
21:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the 'microscale' engineering needed to e.g. build a replicator is the real meat of it
21:08:50 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I don't see how this speaks against it being an esolang
21:08:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: then I was wondering if Game of Life, born in 1970, was the *oldest* esolang with still active research. I looked at dc, since people still occasionally write new obfus in it, which sort of counts as "active research", but I can't determine for sure whether dc is older or newer than Game of Life.
21:09:11 <int-e> hmm. or perhaps you just find the fiddling boring
21:09:14 <ais523> I think the game of life is interesting because instead of an explicit list of commands, it provides a number of components which feel a bit like they're randomly generated
21:09:32 <ais523> most of which are useless, some of which happen to have functionality that can be pieced together into a TC language
21:09:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: Then I decided that the question is stupid, because both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are so fucking old they probably trump everything, both having been published in 1936.
21:10:15 <ais523> what about the analytical engine's language?
21:10:17 <wob_jonas> And both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are still languages that people research.
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21:10:39 <int-e> yeah I almost wrote earlier that neither lambda calculus not Turing machines are esolangs.
21:10:42 <ais523> also, basic untyped lambda calculus is unlikely to have much research left, people mostly just make derivatives of it
21:11:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: I think they are esolangs, only without a fixed syntax, but that doesn't make them less of esolangs. the execution model is complete enough.
21:12:15 <int-e> Hmm, perhaps. You prove subject reduction, so the Church-Rosser proof carries over to whatever typed system you really study.
21:12:24 <wob_jonas> if we accept languages with no fixed definition of how they do IO or even deliver a yes-no result and they never halt, then why wouldn't we allow no fixed syntax?
21:12:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm trying to say that they're not esoteric enough.
21:12:56 <wob_jonas> plus, ais523 has submitted some articles of his new esolangs that have no fixed syntax, and do you want to go against ais523's claim that those are esolangs?
21:13:27 <int-e> Well, the ambiguity isn't your fault. :)
21:13:43 <wob_jonas> I think they're esoteric in the sense that they're Turing-tarpits, being Turing-complete but its full ruleset being very small
21:13:45 <int-e> And I can hardly blame you for not reading my mind.
21:14:08 <wob_jonas> And few people use them for actual practical programming
21:14:56 <wob_jonas> and not because it's unpopular, but because they're not very suitable, because just like most other tarpits, they're not rich enough
21:15:25 <int-e> And I would probably say that Turing machines are more esoteric than the lambda calculus, because the latter is an actual viable target language for functional programming.
21:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, i didn't say it didn't have a place on the esolang wiki just that the most interesting stuff about it involves more than computation
21:16:12 <int-e> (so clearly we disagree on the richness of lambda calculus)
21:16:51 <wob_jonas> oh, I certainly agree that Turing-machines are more esoteric
21:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> like i haven't actually researched the history involved but it seems to me that the lambda calculus is clearly the richer, more useful computational system; but turing machines were of more scientific interest because they're very clearly physically realisable
21:18:30 <wob_jonas> PH: I think they were of more scientific interest exactly because they're esoteric. they have a strange execution time so asking how fast you can compute something on a Turing-machine is nontrivial and different from the execution time on normal machines;
21:20:01 <wob_jonas> finding the smallest universal Turing-machine or the largest number a small Turing-machine can compute gets nontrivial quickly (although there are similarly simple golf questions about finding the smallest universal combinator or something)
21:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i've often wondered why turing is the Big Name in the field of early formal computation when church was slightly earlier, he proved essentially the same thing and his formalism has gone on to be vastly more influential in modern computing
21:20:56 <wob_jonas> PH: so you're saying that we have to measure the esotericness of a language compared to its age, and there's not many other languages in their age to compare to?
21:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> but anyway, especially early on when 'what will physical computers be able to do' was presumably an important new question, the fact that turing's formal machine could clearly be mapped to the operation of an (idealised) physical computer would have made results like universality far more important than they were for the lambda calculus
21:23:21 <wob_jonas> I mean, that's true, but there's still, I guess, arithmetic notations, which existed back then and could count as very limited programming languages,
21:23:26 <int-e> looking at the Z3... "Data memory: 64 words with a length of 22 bits" "Program memory: Punched celluloid tape"
21:23:43 <wob_jonas> and in particular in 1980 Hilbert considered the set of Diophantine equations, which you could consider an early esolang actually, so there are other languages to compare
21:24:00 <wob_jonas> heck, Diophantine equations might be the earliest esolang that still have active research
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21:26:23 <wob_jonas> PH: yes, but didn't people seriously start to consider building physical computers later than lambda-calculus was published, unless the legends about Babbage are true (they sound as exaggerated as the Da Vinci ones)?
21:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't know that much about the actual history! i think they were seriously considering it well before they actually built any
21:28:05 <Phantom_Hoover> like i've always kind of assumed turing had physical realisation in mind when he came up with the turing machine because, well, why else would you come up with anything so painfully awkward
21:28:22 <wob_jonas> PH: but how much before? only two decades, or five decades?
21:29:36 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: maybe the point was to have something that could obviously be built in principle (modulo the infinite tape length) :)
21:29:41 <wob_jonas> it seems like some of those legends about Babbage are true, because he built a pretty good mechanical calculator, perhaps better than any before.
21:30:04 <imode> mechanical computers were in wide use prior to LC.
21:30:18 <imode> mechanical calculating hardware was in wide use prior to LC.
21:30:19 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: how does one build a random access memory, really? I mean, imagine you didn't know how it was done...
21:30:41 <imode> hell the earliest programmable hardware was looms.
21:31:45 <wob_jonas> imode: that's true, I have a photo of one in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-khm-kunstkammer-calculator.jpg
21:31:57 <imode> beautiful hardware.
21:32:44 <wob_jonas> and that one is clearly a decorative one, probably not much used in reality, but was probably also working (for some value of working), so at that point mechanical calculators must have been "cheap" enough that you would consider giving one as a useless gift to a king
21:33:11 <wob_jonas> although the description said something about how it was used by court astronomers or something
21:33:13 <imode> definitely. just look at the history of cash registers.
21:33:17 <wob_jonas> so maybe it wasn't purely decorative
21:34:05 <wob_jonas> maybe it was somewhat practical, but also beautifully decorative, like many other items in that exhibition, including utensils and grooming tools
21:34:20 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WLANL_-_jpa2003_-_Jaquardweefgetouw_03.jpg looks impressive
21:34:26 <wob_jonas> though some of them did look so richly decorated that I can hardly imagine they're practical to use
21:35:02 <imode> hell, mechanical computers were used to calculate ballistic trajectories in the navies around the world well up through the early 1900's.
21:35:19 <wob_jonas> and the Antikythera mechanism is claimed to be the oldest mechanical computer we know of, and it's from the *antiquities*, and it's one specialized for astronomical calculations
21:36:05 <imode> I just plopped into this discussion, what's it about?
21:36:07 <wob_jonas> perhaps there were actually languages of that age to compare to, even if I know close to nil about them
21:36:43 <wob_jonas> imode: I started by asking if Game of Life is the oldest esolang with still active research in it, then wondered if Turing-machines fit the bill,
21:36:59 <imode> oh yeah turing machines fit the bill lol.
21:37:05 <wob_jonas> imode: then it followed up by a discussion of whether Turing-machines are an esoteric language, and how you even define esoteric language,
21:37:07 <imode> persistent TMs are even more obscure.
21:37:51 <wob_jonas> and then about old physically built computers
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21:39:13 <imode> I actually wonder if an abacus counts.
21:39:19 <wob_jonas> My favourite item from that exhibition, though, is a purely decorative one: a statuette https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Gefesselter_Prometheus_(Hagenauer) of which I didn't manage to make good enough quality photos
21:40:29 <wob_jonas> because there were big difficulties making photos in a dark room with ugly uneven directional lighting and lots of reflective glass cabinets with all four doors open arranged through a large room and other visitors and no tripods allowed and
21:41:13 <wob_jonas> me having only a compact camera that isn't really ideal for that sort of challenge, even though I definitely really like that camera and think it was really worth its price and have served me well so far.
21:41:46 <imode> as the "oldest computer".
21:42:42 <int-e> imode: an abacus counts, adds, and with some care, multiplies as well
21:43:22 <wob_jonas> int-e: but didn't the babylonian scribes also add and multiply on clay tablets too?
21:43:23 <imode> int-e: ayyyy there's the pun. :P
21:44:15 <int-e> wob_jonas: we're quickly approaching snakes and log tables, I see.
21:44:17 <wob_jonas> perhaps such a scribe or group of scribes could count as a computer, and programmable too if their liege orders them to do a specific calculation
21:44:46 <int-e> (beware of adders, they are venomous)
21:45:03 <wob_jonas> and yeah, some people make the case that the universe is a giant computer, and it's clearly older than anything invented by humans
21:45:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i think you basically need to discount anything that relies on the human mind as a computer
21:45:21 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah, I heard that pun already
21:45:41 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer
21:46:04 <wob_jonas> PH: relies in what sense? all computers built so far rely on the human mind to repair and work for more than a few decades continuously
21:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i refuse to believe you can be confused on what i mean by this except for the sake of pedantry
21:46:56 <wob_jonas> there have been plans for computers that last for longer, but I don't think any have been built yet
21:48:31 <wob_jonas> not that I'm not impressed by how well some computers launched in space manage to work for decades under physically very limiting conditions, mind you
21:51:53 <wob_jonas> That the Voyager 1 has had a working computer and able to contact us still ever since 1977 is definitely one of the crowning jewels of human-built technology so far.
21:51:55 <int-e> Well, we *can* build computer hardware to last, and be fault-tolerant and redundant, especially when it doesn't need to be fast.
21:52:29 <wob_jonas> int-e: theoretically yes, but I don't think anyone put together the money for it yet
21:52:32 <imode> what's the longest-lasting computer we can build?
21:53:14 <ais523> wob_jonas: I thought it was sufficiently distant that its bandwidth had dropped below the rate required to accomplish anything useful with the communications?
21:53:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm hard pressed to think of a market for it, beyond space crafts (and some other hardware that is hard to access. industrial, perhaps. or things we put inside undersea cables.).
21:53:39 <ais523> also, some of the computers from the early days of transistors may still be working
21:53:41 <wob_jonas> imode: there is some research on that. some people proposed ones that would work for ten thousand years unrepaired or something and is earthbound, and is just a clock (barely counts as a computer), but it's probably unrealistic.
21:53:56 <ais523> thermionic valves are really unreliable, and when people started replacing them by transistors it took a while for them to revise the computer designs
21:53:56 <imode> yeah a clock wouldn't count imho.
21:54:05 <int-e> wob_jonas: anyway, putting some random keywords together: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-28/issue-6/technology-focus/radiation-hardened-space-electronics-enter-the-multi-core-era.html
21:54:10 <imode> turing completeness is what matters.
21:54:20 <imode> smallest, longest-lasting turing complete piece of hardware.
21:54:22 <ais523> we don't have any Turing complete computers though
21:54:34 <imode> yeah yeah mr. pedant.
21:54:44 <ais523> that makes it quite hard to define a computer in real life
21:54:54 <ais523> I guess some sort of informal "usable for programming" is what we care about
21:55:16 <imode> construct me the longest-lasting linear bounded automaton you have.
21:55:46 <int-e> wob_jonas: oh and a nice closing sentence: 'Aircraft flying at altitude, at about 30,000 feet and above, also are starting to experience radiation-induced effects. "There are 500 times more neutrons at 30,000 feet than there are on the ground," points out Aitech's Romaniuk.'
21:55:48 <ais523> hmm, a physically realisable LBA would require some sort of rewritable physical medium to supply the input
21:55:58 <int-e> (near closing, if you want to be technical)
21:56:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: it doesn't look like that, if I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_1 correctly
21:56:11 <imode> I wouldn't rely on any electronic or MEMs shit.
21:56:28 <imode> I guess we're also going to talk size.
21:56:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's the two Pioneer probes, both of which were launched prior to the two Voyagers, that can no longer communicate with us
21:56:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: ah right, apparently we can still tell it to steer and get back information telling us it's changed course
21:57:28 <ais523> that wouldn't need a lot of bandwidth
21:58:03 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, there's no market for computers that work for a long time, because nobody cares for such long term investments financially, which is probably why none have been built in practice
21:58:40 <ais523> especially because computer technology improves all the time, and so a computer is likely to become obsolete fairly quickly
21:59:10 <imode> I wouldn't even care about the speed or size of it, I just want the most durable and longest-lasting piece of hardware, in whatever form it may take.
21:59:13 <ais523> although a working computer from, say, the year 2000 would still be useful nowadays, even though it's much less powerful than modern computers are
21:59:25 <imode> you may be able to make a fluidic TM out of some of the hardest material on the planet.
21:59:32 <ais523> imode: I can imagine that some microcontrollers would be very durable
21:59:53 <imode> ais523: I wouldn't rely on anything electrical or explicitly mechanical. wear and tear.
22:00:04 <imode> fluidics sound like a good option.
22:00:11 <ais523> applications like computerised sensors might legitimately want to work for a long time
22:00:39 <imode> 10,000 years in space?
22:00:40 <ais523> imode: I've been thinking of a physical implementation of The Waterfall Model using actual flowing water, but it'd likely accumulate tolerance errors over time unless you had some sort of quantisation involved
22:00:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, and part of that is because better radio wave receivers and transmitters have been built than were possible when it (Voyager 10) was launched, although people probably anticipated back than that such will be built
22:01:07 <imode> ais523: I'm thinking of fluidic logic gates in an enclosed block of some kind of material.
22:01:12 <imode> we don't care about getting output from it.
22:01:20 <ais523> imode: fluid scour would be a huge issue with something like that
22:01:48 <ais523> I think electrical or optical computation would be the right way to go, having no moving parts is likely to increase durability considerably
22:02:10 <ais523> with electrical computation, you'd want to use some really simple, hardwearing components like BJTs
22:02:57 <imode> I dunno, I don't think any of it would last. thermals, etc.
22:03:39 <wob_jonas> further, I believe Voyager 10 has a *programmable* computer because when it was launched, its creators anticipated that future research on Earth would let them decide how to change its program for the better, and communication bandwidth limits wouldn't allow the program to just be executed on Earth
22:03:40 <ais523> I just looked it up, as long as the current stays low enough the only known failure mode of BJTs within their normal operating envelope is due to ionizing radiation
22:04:28 <imode> I still think it should be something more passively mechanical like fluidics. either using gasses or actual fluids.
22:06:42 <wob_jonas> imode: some science writer whose name eludes me did propose that a Turing-complete computer that lives forever may be physically built, but only with capabilities of civilizations much more advanced than ours
22:07:18 <wob_jonas> its purpose would be to run a mind, so that they thus gain immortality
22:07:57 <imode> asimov's the last question?
22:09:30 <wob_jonas> imode: it actually details the physics part
22:09:53 <wob_jonas> and was intended as non-fiction, although "futurology" bounds on fiction
22:10:33 <zzo38> If you play GURPS, what TL number would you have such thing of that?
22:10:46 <imode> nothing like that's coming to mind immediately...
22:10:52 <wob_jonas> I guess the Voyager 10 might count as one of the oldest computers that is still used for practical purposes today
22:13:32 <wob_jonas> As for fluidic computers, there was a supposed one exhibited in the Technisches Museum Wien that I've seen in 2006,
22:14:21 <wob_jonas> namely it was a machine made of glass and water and air but with the glass never moving, powered by a water pump and its inputs controlled by some modern computer,
22:15:36 <ais523> fluid scour is a major source of mechanical damage to things, though
22:15:42 <ais523> presumably it would be less bad with a gas than a liquid
22:16:04 <wob_jonas> that they claimed was a four-bit adder, and with a display of the inputs and outputs in binary also made of those same components with the bits drawn in water (the water was dyed for better visibility),
22:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover> yes i don't see why you'd expect fluidics to be particularly long-lasting
22:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean how would overbuilt silicon microchips compare? ais523?
22:17:07 <wob_jonas> the controlling computer had an input terminal where you would input two arbitrary four-bit numbers, and the input display did seem to work correctly,
22:17:38 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: there are a few failure modes for silicon chips, some of which are to do with temperature, others of which are to do with buildup of electrons or holes in the wrong place
22:18:04 <ais523> and some of which are mechanical and even weird, e.g. fusible link PROMs sometimes suffer from the copper in them growing crystals and linking up to other bit of copper
22:18:15 <wob_jonas> however, the controlling computer also forced to reset the inputs to all zeros after like ten seconds of feeding your input and forced to keep it at all zeros for some time, and during those approx ten seconds,
22:18:50 <wob_jonas> for a significant ratio of inputs I tried the state of the adder didn't stabilize (the gates didn't propagate fast enough or something),
22:19:24 <wob_jonas> so I actually suspect that they never managed to debug the water computer, and just exhibited the buggy one with a workaround that makes the bug plausibly deniable
22:19:41 <wob_jonas> or at least, makes them plausibly claim that it had worked at some point
22:20:50 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it's possible to build a magnetic computer
22:20:57 <wob_jonas> it didn't seem like it had some theoretical design bug, the mechanism seemed like it could work in theory, but I think the glassware was difficult and slow to repair, and so they just couldn't get it right in enough tries and had to exhibit it to get a government grant or something.
22:20:59 <ais523> but it's unclear what the power supply would be and if any sorts of gate exist
22:21:32 <wob_jonas> I think besides the glass it also had a non-moving metal frame to support the weight of the glass.
22:22:26 <wob_jonas> How many times have I told this story of the supposed fluidic computer on this channel yet?
22:22:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: what would a magnetic computer mean?
22:23:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: something that used magnetism to send data rather than electricity
22:24:10 <wob_jonas> yep, a metal frame and also some sort of plastic valve-thingies, but the water was the only moving part, supposedly, unless they also cheated on that
22:24:27 <wob_jonas> I think the valve thingies were for maintenance and tuning
22:25:53 <ais523> I find it hard to see how you could do logic with only water as moving parts
22:26:27 <Phantom_Hoover> well, nobody understands fluid mechanics so it must be possible
22:27:24 <imode> fluidic logic gates!
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22:30:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: the water had to be flowing continuously, bits represented by either water flowing fast or barely any water flowing and the tube filled with mostly air, the trick was some syphons:
22:31:25 <wob_jonas> the gate had a part where if water entered on both inputs, then the water would be continuously syphoned out from a container through a higher overflow output pipe, and barely any exited the lower output pipe, but if water came only on one input, then the syphon would never start.
22:31:54 <wob_jonas> I imagine the difficulty is that the water pressure has to be regulated very well, and that's hard to keep through multiple depths of gates.
22:32:43 <wob_jonas> And this is also why it's so plausibly deniable: it is possible that the mechanism was designed to only give correct output if it was actually "flushed" to all zero inputs on every gate between any two inputs.
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22:33:12 <wob_jonas> So the electronic reset needn't have been arbitrary, it might have been a necessary requirement to use the computer, enforced to visitors.
22:33:14 <ais523> you can probably write a TC language with that restriction, though
22:34:09 <wob_jonas> But because of the instability of the mechanism, I can't really be sure that this is the case. It just makes the plausible cover story so much more believable.
22:34:48 <wob_jonas> I think it must have been a private grant, not a government grant. You don't need such a good cover story for a government grant.
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22:35:08 <wob_jonas> A grant from a private company that is.
22:36:14 <wob_jonas> Either that, or a machine built by a single eso-computer builder glassblower who donated it to the museum when he gave up on making it work.
22:37:11 <ais523> hmm, is it possible to build an amplifier with this sort of logic?
22:37:28 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics#Amplifiers
22:37:29 <ais523> something which converts a slow flow to a fast flow but a zero flow to a zero flow
22:38:20 <ais523> normally, if you have an amplifier, you can make arbitrary circuits, without one you can't
22:38:25 <wob_jonas> at least if you had a reliable flow rate on inputs and power.
22:38:49 <imode> looks like fluid amplifiers exist.
22:39:15 <ais523> it looks like the logic relies on deflection, i.e. you can point a stream of water at another stream of water and it pushes it into a different location
22:39:40 <imode> yeah, kind of like a billiard ball model.
22:39:58 <imode> only with many many more particles. :P
22:40:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: the adder is a non-monotonous circuit, so it needs non-monotonous gates. aren't those practically required to contain an amplifier, in the sense that a transistor used as a unit gate in modern digital computers is an amplifier and has a power input?
22:40:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it can't be exactly what I said, because that would only make an xor gate
22:40:54 <wob_jonas> but perhaps it has an or gate as well as those
22:40:55 <imode> y'all should look at the article lol.
22:41:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: I can show the photos if you want to reverse engineer, but they're bad quality so hard to use for that
22:41:52 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't think a half-adder (and thus a full-adder) actually needs amplification; the truth table is 00→00, 01→01, 10→01, 11→10, and in each case the output has no more 1s than the input
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22:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it is honestly kind of crazy how much stuff in the game of life comes down to the r pentomino
22:43:13 <wob_jonas> and the mechanism looks like each gate is very simple physically, and seems to have only two inputs and two outputs
22:43:27 <wob_jonas> they have two inputs and three outputs
22:43:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you can think of it as a game of life version of an amplifier: small (easily constructed) input, really big and complex output
22:44:26 <wob_jonas> I think it's only two outputs, but hard to tell from my photo
22:44:26 <ais523> there aren't many useful components with two inputs and three outputs; if it does have that structure it's probably a demultiplexer, which is the only reasonable component I can think of that works like that
22:44:49 <ais523> additionally, a demultiplexer can be made into a half-adder via an OR on outputs 1 and 3
22:45:00 <ais523> (which would just involve connecting them together, fluidically)
22:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> conway has said that he should've invented b36/s23 instead b/c it has the nice easy replicator
22:45:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, if there are three outputs, then the extra output must be drainage of extra water
22:45:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: the machine is visibly built of seven gates, clearly arranged in the configuration you'd need for a four-bit adder
22:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> but the r pentomino dies out almost instantly in that, so it would never have supported all the immense variety of r-pentomino/herschel based technology that's used in life
22:45:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: hmm, so the "fluid demultiplexer"'s truth table would be 00→000, 01→001, 10→100, 11→020
22:46:15 <ais523> presumably there's some component that reshapes a 2 into a 1
22:47:26 <wob_jonas> if the water flows only down, then it's actually the wrong configuration for a full adder. it has two gates next to each other on the top, but one in the bottom. wtf.
22:48:25 <ais523> the reversible counter machine I'm working on effectively has flows made out of different numbers, and 1→2 amplifiers / 2→1 deamplifiers are basic components
22:48:43 <ais523> although it also allows 0s to move around with meaningful semantics
22:48:51 <wob_jonas> and both input pipes from the two top level gates seem to be connected to the second level gates
22:50:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: is that a TC-proof you're making over some already published reversible counter machine, or a new esolang? because that doesn't sound like a "counter machine"
22:50:52 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's a new esolang that's intended to be high-level enough to TC-prove it but low-level enough to implement in lower-level esolangs
22:51:11 <wob_jonas> although it looks like the left hand side gates differ slightly from the right hand side gates
22:51:19 <ais523> it's a counter machine in the sense that there's a direct representation of its state in finitely many counters
22:51:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: is the representation with "flows made out of different numbers" a different one?
22:52:20 <ais523> not really, the numbers effectively just move from one counter to another
22:52:43 <ais523> (which in a lower-level counter machine would involve a copy loop, but in the high-level representation it's conceptually a single step)
22:52:56 <wob_jonas> but... are there a bounded number of counters for the whole life of the supposed universal program
22:53:41 <wob_jonas> you mean some numbers close to zero are special, just like in many counter machines, and that's where you're using 1->2 amplifiers?
22:55:07 <wob_jonas> or is that not what the 1->2 amplifier means?
22:55:13 <ais523> nah, the way it works is that you have a graph which is effectively a graph of control flow, and an instruction pointer which is on a particular graph node
22:55:33 <ais523> data and control flow move in opposite directions; the instruction pointer moves around by swapping with data in adjacent graph nodes
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22:56:09 <ais523> and a 1→2 amplifier would produce 2s behind where the control flow entered, but expect 1s ahead of where the control flow exited
22:56:29 <ais523> it's quite hard to get your head around the data and control flowing in opposite directions, incidentally, it keeps confusing me when I work on the language
22:57:15 <wob_jonas> and is 1 input and 2 output the only possible state of that amplifier, or is there another valid input?
22:57:52 <wob_jonas> I assumed it would take 0 input and 0 output, because that's what I thought "amplifier" means
22:58:00 <wob_jonas> but at this point I'm no longer sure because this is a crazy esolang
22:58:50 <wob_jonas> "data and control flowing in opposite directions" => isn't that also how any circular queue esolang works by the way?
22:59:05 <wob_jonas> I guess it can be easier if there's only one circular queue, not a more complex graph
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00:19:48 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57236&oldid=57008 * Galaxtone * (+21) Fixed small errors with "a" and "an" and modified description of the String Concatenate statement.
00:21:01 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57237&oldid=57236 * Galaxtone * (-8) Redudent doubling of greater
00:21:37 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57238&oldid=57237 * Galaxtone * (+8) Undoing previous commit, mis-click of enter key. >:(
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00:26:47 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57239&oldid=57238 * Galaxtone * (-9) Removed redundant doubling of greater than and less than operations symbols.
00:29:11 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57240&oldid=57239 * Galaxtone * (+0) *cough* Woops, My finger hit the enter key, I guess the syntax for String Put has changed.
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03:07:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 050250Z 15003KT 7000 RA FEW002 SCT018 BKN062 12/11 Q1012 RESHRA RMK WIND 670FT 21008KT
03:07:37 <lambdabot> KOAK 050253Z 27011KT 10SM CLR 17/12 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP127 T01720122 55003
03:07:43 <lambdabot> KJFK 050251Z 28009KT 10SM FEW065 FEW250 28/22 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP189 T02780222 51008
03:07:56 <shachaf> i was in nyc last week and the weather was scow
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03:09:00 <oerjan> indeed, i'm glad it's no longer hot here, although somehow the inside of my apartment hasn't cooled down.
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03:09:29 <oerjan> i suspect it is not time to remove the +q yet.
03:10:36 * oerjan has the big door to whatchamacallit open
03:11:14 <shachaf> is this the real world i keep hearing about twh
03:11:30 <oerjan> it's a room outside of my apartment, but still somewhat enclosed.
03:12:13 <oerjan> i tried looking up the correct word in english, guessing it was veranda or something, but none of the options on wikipedia seemed to fit.
03:13:03 <oerjan> because it's _not_ protuding from the wall.
03:16:17 <oerjan> perhaps screened porch is closest.
03:16:33 <oerjan> although my apartment is on the second floor...
03:24:22 <oerjan> hm i'm forgetting to eat the food i already put on the table :P
03:24:49 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
03:25:02 <shachaf> Maybe we should put eating in that, for your convenience.
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04:30:08 <shachaf> Sgeo: will there be an olist on monday twh
04:30:52 <Sgeo> shachaf, give me a bit to figure that out. I'll get back to you on Tuesday.
04:31:53 <shachaf> please make sure the cat does not get hurt twh
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05:21:17 <zzo38> libcurl has a CURLOPT_DEFAULT_PROTOCOL option, although it does not have the option to treat a URL without the scheme as relative to a specified URL or to the current directory.
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06:21:33 <oerjan> . o O ( probably not a lovable rogue )
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08:59:18 <int-e> <shachaf> Maybe we should put eating in that, for your convenience. <-- so s/toe-obsessed/toe-gnawing/ ?
09:02:41 <shachaf> i'd watch out with making gratuitous nonsensical edits to that wisdom entry hth
09:06:06 <int-e> I think it would hardly stand out.
09:06:17 <int-e> But perhaps I missed the implicit irony tag.
09:06:44 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
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20:26:35 <Taneb> Horsepower-hour-hour-hour per acre
20:27:00 <Taneb> It's about 8.6 teragrams
20:30:00 <shachaf> what happened to measuring mass in metres like everything else hth
20:31:15 <Taneb> shachaf, you can't measure everything with the same scale
20:31:42 <shachaf> my book says the mass of the sun is ~1.5km
20:33:05 <Taneb> That's about 231 zetta horsepower hour hour hours per acre
20:33:47 <Taneb> Meters seem a lot more weildly for this, it has to be said
20:34:10 <shachaf> just measure everything in microseconds
20:34:16 <wob_jonas> shachaf: is this because a few days ago I said that a yard is approximately two pound meters per kilogram, and you want to top it?
20:34:48 <Taneb> I didn't see that either
20:35:11 <Taneb> Clearly people in this channel just like using unconventional units
20:35:35 <Taneb> I presume the conversion here is the speed of lite
20:35:45 <Taneb> (I think phonetically...)
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20:36:30 <shachaf> You also need the gravitational constant to convert mass.
20:36:41 <wob_jonas> look, my electric bill is measured in kilowatt hours, the speed limits are in kilometers per hour, the particle physicists measure energy in electron volts (which I think is actually -1 times what you get if you multiply an electron with a volt),
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20:37:10 <shachaf> whoa, G is only known to four significant digits?
20:37:45 <wob_jonas> the astronomers cosmologists use like five different units of measure for distances alone, my digital blood pressure meter and my doctor gives my blood pressure in millimeters of mercury, and let's not even talk about the chemists,
20:38:20 <wob_jonas> and when I fly on a plane the height is given in either meters or feet, so don't tell me that we're using metric in Europe.
20:38:26 <shachaf> a least it's not inches of mercury hth
20:38:44 <wob_jonas> I am trying, but there's only so much I can do.
20:39:08 <shachaf> The metric system is scow anyway. Everyone should use natural units.
20:40:00 <wob_jonas> I am giving lengths in meters when my co-workers want to variously use micrometers, millimeters, centimeters, or meters, depending on what they measure.
20:42:40 <wob_jonas> I'm watching the great videos of the youtubing woodworker Matthias Wandel, who randomly uses meters, centimeters, decimeters, millimeters, thousands of inches, inches, sixteenths of inches, and feet for lengths of parts of the objects he builds, and he's Canadian, where they're supposedly using metric too.
20:44:42 <shachaf> Is using seconds for mass meaningful?
20:45:10 <shachaf> Using metres for mass indicates the Schwarzschild radius or something.
20:45:19 <wob_jonas> And as I work with cameras, I have to know that the reciprocial of the tangent of the half of the angle of view or whatever that is of a camera is given as "35 mm equivalent focal distance", which means
20:46:23 <wob_jonas> that it's measured in multiplies of the width or height or diagonal of the "35 millimeter film", which is 36 millimeter high and 24 millimeter tall, depending on whether it's for a horizontal or vertical or diagonal angle of view.
20:46:45 <wob_jonas> And I've read how this works several times but I still can't remember it.
20:47:05 <int-e> Oh I guess astronomy is useless for measuring G... so we have to measure miniscule forces instead. Fun.
20:47:29 <wob_jonas> And to make it worse, descriptions use "focal distance" to mean either the real focal distance, the 35 millimeter equivalent focal distance in horizontal, in vertical, or in diagonal.
20:47:33 <int-e> (Astronomy uses G to infer masses.)
20:48:12 <int-e> "This inherent difficulty has caused big G to become the only fundamental constant of physics for which the uncertainty of the standard value has risen over time as more and more measurements are made." -- fun :)
20:48:43 * int-e is looking at https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/puzzling-measurement-of-big-g-gravitational-constant-ignites-debate-slide-show/
20:54:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf, int-e: yes, and the other problem is that nobody can yet make an object whose mass is more stable for decades than a relative 10**-8, so we don't have a definition for kilogram compared across different times that is more accurate than that, and it will probably get worse if you want to compare accurate scientific measurements a century fr
20:55:06 <wob_jonas> and experimental physicists are trying to figure out a way to improve that with some riddiculous arrangement involving counting atoms in a ball of silicon that sounds like it could never work but the physicists swear that it actually will.
20:56:49 <wob_jonas> On the other hand, they can measure distances and time and the Planck constant unimaginably precisely, which seems amazing and impossible.
20:58:08 <wob_jonas> And that is how GPSes work, in the sense that that's why GPS satellites itself know their time and place very accurately,
21:00:28 <wob_jonas> plus there's the additional trick that sounds crazy at first but works when you think about it, that inside the satellite there's a test mass freely floating in vacuum never touched by anything heavier than a few photons, heavily shielded from the various radiations of space, and the GPS measures where that test mass is and corrects its own positio
21:00:29 <wob_jonas> n with thrusters according to it, so that it doesn't drift because of solar wind or other particles.
21:00:52 <wob_jonas> The fucking test mass is effectively in a better vacuum than space, which is saying something.
21:01:13 <wob_jonas> But it actually works, because in space, you can make such a perfect vacuum. On earth, it's impossible even in the best laboratories.
21:02:30 <wob_jonas> So we actually need satellites in space for GPS, anything in the atmosphere or on earth wouldn't work precisely enough, regardless of how it couldn't communicate with GPS receivers, because it can't maintain and measure its own position accurately enough.
21:02:46 <wob_jonas> Or at least, this is my naive understanding from what I've read.
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21:04:05 <wob_jonas> And on top of that, the GPS satellites still have to be corrected for the irregular gravitational field of Earth and relativistic effects.
21:06:02 <wob_jonas> The GPS receivers themselves are quite a technological achievement and have a lot of fiddly parts to get right too, by the way.
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21:10:35 <zzo38> Swiss Ephemeris and SQLite are both using Julian day numbers for date/time, so the program to use them together can use this too.
21:18:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: are they the Julian number measured in exactly the same way?
21:18:50 <wob_jonas> I mean, to second accuracy, because you were asking about leap seconds.
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21:27:26 <zzo38> It would seem so; a query such as SELECT DATETIME(JULIANDAY()),DATETIME(JULIANDAY_UT1()); gives the same date/time in each case. However, I do not know what SQLite does with leap seconds, although Swiss Ephemeris does handle leap seconds (even if the operating system doesn't, which means that using these functions with no arguments may give an incorrect answer during a leap second).
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23:13:37 <fungot> boily: after evaluating ( g x ( f y t)) ( apply foo x)
23:36:05 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57241&oldid=57240 * Galaxtone * (+0) Syntax Confliction Resolved.
23:36:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57242&oldid=57241 * Galaxtone * (-143) /* Instruction Syntax */
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00:34:17 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57243&oldid=57242 * Galaxtone * (-59) Boop.
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01:51:05 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas it doesn't count as a balcony because it's not protruding.
01:52:51 <oerjan> also i stopped gnawing my toes some time during childhood. never completely managed to stop gnawing on my fingers, alas.
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04:16:09 <esowiki> [[Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57244&oldid=50650 * A * (+72) Don't forget that there's an online simulator.
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04:16:44 <zzo38> How to determine with Xlib if a window was created using this client?
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04:44:42 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57245&oldid=57218 * A * (+433)
04:45:44 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57246&oldid=57245 * A * (+0) Spelling..
05:05:24 <esowiki> [[Metafractran]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57247 * Challenger5 * (+839) Created page with "'''Metafractran''' is a derivative of [[Fractran]] created by [[User:Challenger5]] in which all program files are irrelevant. Rather than being specified by a program file, co..."
05:07:31 <esowiki> [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57248&oldid=54233 * Challenger5 * (+128)
05:08:40 <esowiki> [[Metafractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57249&oldid=57247 * Challenger5 * (+42)
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07:00:14 <zzo38> Now I made up a SQLite extension for displaying pictures on a X server.
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07:17:28 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57250&oldid=57243 * Galaxtone * (-72) /* Instruction Syntax */ Fixed a little error.
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08:01:23 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57251&oldid=57250 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* S */ Update to String Get to match String Put.
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08:54:21 <zzo38> Are you going to write the specification of Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton in esolang wiki?
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09:07:12 <esowiki> [[ZZT-Flip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57252&oldid=57061 * Zzo38 * (+32)
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09:59:39 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57253&oldid=56631 * A * (+188) My attempt of interpreting a 3-state Busy-Beaver(on wikipedia)(maybe that will prove it Turing-complete?)
10:00:14 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57254&oldid=57253 * A * (-32)
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10:08:12 <int-e> Hrm, what's this... a 3 state TM over a binary alphabet?
10:11:10 * int-e is not happy with states being called "conditions".
10:13:12 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57255&oldid=57254 * A * (+1)
10:13:49 <Taneb> int-e: I think it is appropriate to say that A is in a condition of willful ignorance
10:13:54 <Taneb> (or perhaps a state)
10:16:56 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/utm.png seems relevant
10:19:10 <int-e> (but I have not checked they count states)
10:19:18 <int-e> err, *how* they count states
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12:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57256 * Int-e * (+397) Created page with "== Computational class == According to [https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2230 T. Neary and D. Woods], it was shown by L. Pavlotskaya that the halting problem is decidable for all Tu..."
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15:46:31 <wob_jonas> Apparently "does" is another of those English words like "are", which both have a really common meaning and a rare one, so the rare one is completely impossible to search, because in an English you don't even have any hope to automatically parse the sentence and guess whether it's a noun or verb.
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15:52:56 <Taneb> As in, plural of "doe"?
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15:58:16 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes. but you can check a dictionary.
15:58:56 <Taneb> I'm also a native speaker, which affords some advantages
15:59:10 <wob_jonas> (and don't tell me you don't have one. I said a rare word, not a whatever rarity is below mythic rare word that you only find in the OED.)
15:59:31 <wob_jonas> (there are free English dictionaries on the internet.)
15:59:34 <Taneb> (I genuinely don't have a physical dictionary)
16:00:01 <Taneb> (although I did know both the noun definition of "does" and "are", the latter I learnt only yesterday)
16:00:02 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, but you have an internet connection, and you don't need the OED, you only need one of those dictionaries you can access freely
16:00:39 <wob_jonas> rare words are in most of those, mythic rare words are in the best of those. there's a rarity below that, but I almost never meet such words, and if I saw one, I'd think it's an error.
16:01:51 <wob_jonas> Taneb: there's also a verb definition for "art", and it's a form of "be", which also causes some problems in searching, but in this case the noun is more common than the verb
16:02:23 <wob_jonas> and then there's "Ares" and "ares", which are two different words, the latter is the plural of the noun "are"
16:11:55 <zzo38> I do have a dictionary, and I know those stuff
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16:24:22 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a better way of making working interrupting downloads in my "sqlext_curl" SQLite extension?
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16:27:33 <wob_jonas> once you count words so rare that you only find them in the OED, it gets stupid, because there's at least one super-mythic rare meaning for any reasonable combination of letters you care for, and possibly several super-mythic rare meanings for any very common word.
16:28:29 <wob_jonas> do you have a documentation of your extension somewhere, or something?
16:29:05 <wob_jonas> and are you asking about the curl side, the sqlite interface side, or both?
16:30:02 <zzo38> A list of my SQLite extensions are at http://zzo38computer.org/sql/sqlite.txt and sqlext.zip in the same directory contains the source codes and further documentation. I am asking about the SQLite side, although there may be stuff in libcurl too.
16:31:04 <zzo38> What I am currently doing is to prepare the statement "WITH X AS (SELECT 0 UNION ALL SELECT * FROM X) SELECT * FROM X;" and then pass it as the first argument to the progress callback, which then does: return sqlite3_step(usr)!=SQLITE_ROW;
16:31:27 <zzo38> However, that looks like klugy to me.
16:34:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: Sorry, I have to leave for a few hours now, but may read that later.
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17:47:03 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57257&oldid=57251 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* If Statements */ \_()_/
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18:32:17 <zzo38> Will Pope Francis I do Vatican III?
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18:45:41 <zzo38> Will Pope Francis M do Vatican III?
18:49:24 <zzo38> Actually, what is the highest number that any pope has had? Probably not as high as M, I should think?
18:49:48 <shachaf> Isn't M the mobile version?
18:50:18 <zzo38> M is the roman numbers for one thousand
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19:38:05 <arseniiv> btw hexadecimal roman: i ii iv v vi vii viv vv vvi vvii vviv (≡ivx) vx vxi vxii vxiv (≡ix) x xi xii xiv xv … xlvxiv (≡il) l … (i = 1, v = 4, x = 16, l = 64, c = 256 etc)
19:39:14 <arseniiv> unparenthesized variants correspond to usual quatenary numeric system with digits 0, 1, 2, 3, and parenthesized ones correspond to the one with digits −1, 0, 1, 2
19:40:59 <arseniiv> it could be prefixed or postfixed e. g. by H as in some asms to distinguish from the usual romans
19:41:36 <arseniiv> also this pre/postfixation allows one to represent zero: H in the last case
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19:52:40 <zzo38> Someone said tabs should appear in your history when you closed them, not when you opened them. But my opinion is you should be allowed to define your own SQL queries for the history menus.
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20:03:10 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: look, I'd like a new representation of hexadecimal numbers, but I hate roman numbers so please don't base this on them. please invent something that is at least sort of positional and can represent large numbers too.
20:04:10 <wob_jonas> And ideally, one that can represent hexadecimal floating point numbers, so there's a way to mark the sign and the exponent and the exponent of the sign, though the exponent itself can be in decimal, describe the full syntax.
20:04:28 <ais523> wob_jonas: wouldn't it not be hexadecimal if you changed it to anything but place-value notation?
20:04:29 <wob_jonas> oh, and a decimal point. I forgot that part.
20:04:51 <zzo38> I did see something else where the digits 7 to 1 are written upside down to make the stuff after 8, was someone's idea too I think
20:05:20 <zzo38> (This was on a clock; hexadecimal timekeeping was invented by many people independently, some from before computer machines were invented.)
20:05:20 <ais523> also it isn't a decimal point unless you're using decimal
20:06:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: mostly, but if you, say, optionally insert a cat's scratch mark between every four digits, then I'm willing to still call that hexadecimal
20:07:26 <wob_jonas> and perhaps if there are two separate sets of glyphs for digits, either used alternately, or one set used when you want non-grid digits like when you'd use old style numerals in decimal, that's still fine.
20:07:39 <wob_jonas> But it's hard enough to find *one* good set of digits that doesn't clash with something else.
20:07:57 <wob_jonas> obviously it depends on what you want to use it for
20:08:27 <wob_jonas> I'd like one that's human-readable and human-writable and machine-readable and machine-writable
20:09:53 <wob_jonas> And reasonably easy to learn, not requiring months of training in the basics of arabic or eastern calligraphy, and then differences in stroke order of one digit depending on whether it's in chinese or japanese text.
20:10:28 <wob_jonas> That reminds me, I have a question.
20:11:27 <zzo38> Did you read what I wrote before you were off a while ago today?
20:11:32 <wob_jonas> Where can I find, ideally for free on the internet, a description with detailed illustrations on how to handwrite Russian,
20:12:20 <wob_jonas> not in one of those fancy archaic ways that people used three decades ago or would use on a diploma a dentist puts on his wall, but in a way that I can quickly use for jotting down a few names for reference,
20:12:37 <zzo38> I don't know, but I might would try looking in Wikipedia first to see if they have any
20:13:10 <wob_jonas> and it should include the entire modern Russian alphabet in both upper and lower case, and all variants required if I want to write entire words in lower case, and ideally stress accents and basic punctuation too.
20:14:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I did look. I found only an image showing what looks like older fancy handwriting, with like a single sample for each letter or perhaps two sets of samples, each isolated rather than connected despite that it looks like these are letters designed for connecting the lowercase ones.
20:15:49 <wob_jonas> One possibility is that I should just pay a private Russian language tutor that I visit in person for a short course or something. But that might cost a ton of money.
20:16:27 <zzo38> If you do then you can write a book.
20:16:28 <wob_jonas> zzo: oh, I'll get back to that in a moment, thanks for reminding
20:17:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: or at least a short few-page guide. not a full-length book from what I learn.
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20:17:37 <wob_jonas> it would cost a ton because it would probably be one-on-one lessons, and those cost a lot, because a language teacher can realistically ask for 17000 HUF per 45 minutes or even more
20:18:12 <wob_jonas> and this would take more than 90 minutes, I think.
20:19:00 <wob_jonas> My current workaround is to write the ISO 9 transcripted equivalent, because I know how to handwrite latin letters with diacritics
20:27:26 <wob_jonas> But before I forget, another question.
20:27:35 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: And ideally, one that can represent hexadecimal floating point numbers, so there's a way to mark the sign and the exponent and the exponent of the sign, though the exponent itself can be in decimal, describe the full syntax. => in that case, what’s wrong with the usual hexadecimal? :P
20:28:41 <wob_jonas> Oh, for bonus, I'd also like a pronunciation for the hexadecimal numbers, although there are already at least two reasonable systems for that. And if possible, also a long pronunciation system, for noisy environments.
20:31:03 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what the two most differentiable sounds are? you could use them to spell out the nybbles in binary
20:31:29 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: there are multiple things wrong. some of them can't be fixed by another standard: nobody can agree if the digits A-Z should be uppercase or lowercase, some programs only accept uppercase (TeX and bc and dc; and you definitely can't change those), but many programs emit lowercase (including some /proc interfaces in the kernel), and I think
20:31:29 <wob_jonas> I've even seen programs that only accept lowercase.
20:32:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: I believe that uppercase is standard; the issue is that in many libraries it's customizable
20:32:32 <ais523> e.g. C *printf uses %X or %x for hex according to the case of letters you want
20:32:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: that would be hard for the mind of both the listener and the speaker, and also the most differentiable ones are very long and varied, to make sure it works for different background noises and loud noises blotting out different moments entirely.
20:32:50 <ais523> the problem there is that most printf specifiers are lowercase
20:32:55 <ais523> so people tend to use %x out of consistency
20:33:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: you want pronouncable ones, right? if not, probably a fucking loud air raid siren and silence.
20:33:29 <ais523> hmm, I guess they need to be self-delimiting too
20:33:48 <ais523> "upwards chirp" and "downwards chirp" might work, it's very rare to misinterpret one as the other
20:33:55 <ais523> you might be unsure which you've heard but then you can ask for a resend
20:33:55 <shachaf> What is a C struct/union type?
20:34:00 <wob_jonas> or perhaps a jet engine and silence, because I'm not sure air raid siren sounds are actually well designed for some hard-on-hearing people who only hear low frequency sounds
20:34:10 <ais523> shachaf: what level of abstraction are you asking at?
20:34:18 <shachaf> It seems to involve a bunch of different properties.
20:34:50 <shachaf> I guess what it includes is, at least: A sizeof; a namespace of members; for each member, an offset.
20:34:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: there are solutions for sounds that aren't self-delimiting if the two sounds are of equal length: what serial lines does works
20:35:20 <shachaf> But also something like a calling convention which lets you pass a struct type in registers etc.
20:35:22 <ais523> in very early versions of C, members weren't namespaced, and were just constants describing the offset
20:35:23 <wob_jonas> as in, wrapping them so they're now delimited
20:35:34 <ais523> but that's changed since
20:35:46 <zzo38> TeX uses lowercase hex for ^^ and uppercase hex for "
20:36:12 <ais523> I'm not sure if the calling convention is part of the struct type itself, normally ABIs will have a clause about "here's how you give a structure that's six bytes long as a parameter", or the like
20:36:21 <shachaf> It's not strictly the calling convention.
20:36:25 <ais523> that said, more complex ABIs may care about whether the struct contains ints or floats…
20:36:33 <shachaf> What I mean is that it says "if you specify a value for each member, you've specified the entire struct"
20:36:44 <shachaf> Even if there's some extra memory for alignment or something.
20:36:49 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no no, the calling conventions are all defined on each architecture deterministically from the definition of the C struct, which contains the order and type and name (and field width if you're masochistic) of each member plus the alignas specifier and attributes on the struct itself.
20:37:03 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and the sizeof is part of the calling conventions
20:37:07 <shachaf> Yes, the struct itself doesn't include the calling convention, but you see what I'm getting at.
20:37:30 <ais523> I don't think == works on structs, does it?
20:37:31 <shachaf> A struct isn't just a thing in memory with offsets, it can have different representations.
20:37:42 <ais523> and I don't think memcmp does either because it compares padding bytes
20:38:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Where can I find, ideally for free on the internet, a description with detailed illustrations on how to handwrite Russian, // not in one of those fancy archaic ways that people used three decades ago or would use on a diploma a dentist puts on his wall, but in a way that I can quickly use for jotting down a few names for reference => oh neat one! I am native and I didn’t search too much, but after that little search I think
20:38:28 <arseniiv> it’s still described in full only in paper textbooks for children :\
20:38:29 <arseniiv> AFAIR letter connections are fairly simple, only several letters have two forms (в, о, ю, ь, ъ — all because of circles at the right, but I can’t remember about ф in this regard). If there wouldn’t be any better findings, I’ll try to fix something (I don’t use this style in my handwritting, it’s a mishmash of styles, but this one is too slow to use consistently
20:38:58 <shachaf> If you pass a struct with two members to a function, it's permitted to just pass the two values in registers, without passing the padding in, right?
20:38:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you want to know the rules of calling conventions for C and C++ structs on linux-x86_32 and linux-x86_64 and win32-x86_32 and win32-x86_64? I have link to both the ELF specs defining the linux C special case, and Agner's writeup which describes them in a readable way.
20:39:31 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I'm not so much asking about any particular architecture but about what the language construct is.
20:40:04 <wob_jonas> you can also look up in a C/C++ compiler source code, or a debugger source code, or even most of the C calling conventions in a haskell compiler or rust compiler source code, although a few crazy pieces like bitfields and atomics may be missing from the latter
20:40:07 <shachaf> Is struct assignment with = required to copy padding? I would imagine not?
20:40:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, do you mean the semantics of structs guaranteed by the language for all architecture?
20:41:02 <shachaf> I'm not really thinking about C here, I'm trying to figure out how you might define structs in another language.
20:41:09 <wob_jonas> that's a bit complicated. I can point you to the respective standards, but it's likely better to ask on the ##c and ##c++ channels on freenode
20:41:10 <shachaf> Can you make structs/unions a user-defined thing?
20:41:36 <shachaf> If so what information would they need?
20:41:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you mean you want to know about structs in rust or D or some other specific language?
20:41:52 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Oh, for bonus, I'd also like a pronunciation for the hexadecimal numbers, although there are already at least two reasonable systems for that. And if possible, also a long pronunciation system, for noisy environments. => I pass then :D
20:42:04 <shachaf> wob_jonas: No, a hypothetical language.
20:42:33 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC parameter passing is defined as initialisation, which wouldn't copy padding as it's conceptually field-by-field
20:42:39 <wob_jonas> shachaf: a hypothetical language can define its rules however you want, but you might want to find out about the rules in existing similar languages first
20:43:10 <shachaf> wob_jonas: OK, is there any language that supports something like user-defined struct data types?
20:43:34 <wob_jonas> but I think there's some magic in the standard that actually lets it overwrite the padding bits and bytes if the compiler chooses to, because in practice that's often faster
20:43:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, we're talking about C
20:43:52 <ais523> I don't think initialisation puts any requirement on what the padding bits are
20:44:03 <ais523> so a memcpy would be allowed by the as-if rule
20:44:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: C, C++, rust, D, probably more but I don't really know any by heart
20:44:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm saying because the C++ rules are much more complicated
20:44:55 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I mean user-defined as in "struct isn't a fundamental notion in the language"
20:45:20 <shachaf> But instead you define a type and say that this is the sizeof and there are values at these offsets and so on.
20:45:36 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, sometimes I feel better if I pretend C++ doesn't exist
20:45:48 <wob_jonas> shachaf: are algebraic types, ML-like, or rust enums, a fundamental concept?
20:45:57 <ais523> it's something like three languages at this point
20:46:07 <shachaf> In Go, the "namespace" aspect is a bit more explicit: You can write "type A struct { x int; y int; }; type B struct { A; ... }", and then refer to "b.x"
20:46:08 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, you want one where you define the memory representation and perhaps even the calling convention?
20:46:13 <arseniiv> ais523: hmm, I wonder what the two most differentiable sounds are? you could use them to spell out the nybbles in binary => maybe something noisy, a fricative like [ʃ] or [ç] or something, and something sonorant like a vowel, maybe a closed one like [i] or [u] or [y] will do better (IDK)
20:46:19 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think some assemblers let you define structs like that
20:46:45 <wob_jonas> but then you have to write all the code that reads and write the struct, you can only refer to the offset values conveniently
20:46:57 <wob_jonas> since, you know, that's the whole point of assemblers
20:46:57 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I don't know about defining the calling convention explicitly so much as specifying the information in the struct to the point that the compiler can figure out a convention.
20:47:00 <ais523> that's a common extension to C
20:47:09 <zzo38> shachaf: It is possible in some C compilers as well
20:47:21 <ais523> in the OCaml method you have to give namespaces explicitly for struct field access
20:47:30 <ais523> i.e. say which struct it belongs to
20:47:33 <arseniiv> ah, self-delimited fails for thoswe
20:48:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you can usually just do that by adding specific dummy fields so there's no automatically inserted padding, plus an alignas marking for the struct, and making all fields the right type
20:48:13 <shachaf> I think something like (in C++) "struct B { A base; using namespace base; ... };" could be nice.
20:48:35 <wob_jonas> but if you want something exotic like overlapping fields, then you're out of luck unless perhaps you can do it in fortran
20:48:41 <wob_jonas> I mean, partially overlapping fields
20:48:42 <shachaf> Unions are "just" structs where all the members have offset 0.
20:49:07 <wob_jonas> no, I mean, two fields where the upper part of one overlaps the lower part of the other
20:49:12 <shachaf> Kind of? I guess the calling convention can get tricky.
20:49:24 <zzo38> Yes, you can use unions, and with GNU C you can also have zero length arrays
20:49:30 <shachaf> I don't care about overlapping fields very much, I think in a case like that you might be better off doing it manually.
20:49:52 <wob_jonas> although I think you can do even that with unnamed unions, which C and rust now have, and unions in C++ at the cost of it being slightly more difficult to reference the fields
20:49:58 <shachaf> zzo38: C99 has something similar to zero-length arrays.
20:50:25 <zzo38> Yes, the GCC documentation mentions that, but it isn't as good as real zero-length arrays, I think
20:50:33 <wob_jonas> C++ and rust both have improved support for unions now, although rust's isn't perfect yet, but people always want to improve everything in rust, so duh
20:51:12 <ais523> Rust has tagged unions, I expect?
20:51:19 <ais523> the untagged kind is rather ridiculously unsafe
20:51:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh, you want zero-length arrays? then write it with rust structs and rust unions, each #[repr(C)] and possibly whatever the new syntax of alignof is
20:51:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: rust fully supports zero-length anything, and even has special language rules to make them work really well
20:52:12 <wob_jonas> only problem is, no anonymous inner structs/unions yet, but there's a proposal, and it will go through because it's needed for wrapping some C interfaces
20:52:25 <ais523> gcc supports zero-length arrays, which is annoying when you're trying to cause an error during type checking
20:52:36 <zzo38> You can use negative lengths to cause an error during type checking.
20:52:39 <wob_jonas> and yes, the untagged is unsafe, but sometimes you want that to control representation exactly
20:52:44 <ais523> my static_assert implementation has to use a negative-sized array, right
20:53:06 <shachaf> In addition to C structs/unions I want to figure out whether C++-style (non-virtual) methods are a good idea or not. They're also an odd mix of several things.
20:53:12 <ais523> a tagged union is really a cross between an enum and a union
20:53:21 <wob_jonas> and #[repr(C)] enum even have a definite representation now, or will soon have iirc
20:53:38 <wob_jonas> as in, a representation promised by the language in all future compilers
20:53:53 <ais523> that's kind-of weird, C compilers aren't stable as to how to represent enums
20:53:57 <zzo38> (I have also seen using a enum with a division by zero to cause conditional compiler errors)
20:53:59 <wob_jonas> although I think only if you add a #[repr(u32)] or similar to tell what type the tag is
20:54:01 <shachaf> They give you namespacing, so you can write "v.push(x)" instead of "vector_push(v, x)"
20:54:13 <shachaf> The namespacing is nice because you don't have to type the type name everywhere.
20:54:33 <shachaf> But they also give you an implicit "this" argument, which seems kind of pointless?
20:54:44 <ais523> shachaf: some languages use "unified call syntax" where a.f(b) and f(a,b) are syntactic sugar for each other
20:54:58 <shachaf> ais523: I guess that can work if you have overloaded functions.
20:55:06 <shachaf> But it's kind of ugly to put f in global namespace.
20:55:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: in rust, if you add #[repr(C)] #[repr(u32)] or similar for almost any integer type, then the repr is defined, at least in not too old versions, as a struct whose first element is the tag and the second is a union of the variants or of structs of the variants or something.
20:55:15 <ais523> yes, it presumably only makes sense with overloading
20:55:31 <ais523> although, I can envisage a language where the options are a.f(b) and n.f(a,b) where n is a namespace
20:55:34 <shachaf> I think the idea of methods is, an object is a "dynamic" namespace which is created at runtime.
20:55:35 <ais523> i.e. a has a "default" namespace
20:55:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: in most other cases, it's implementation-defined, because the compiler does some optimizations on the representation that they don't want to promise to be the same in the future, and are a bit long to describe,
20:56:13 <ais523> wob_jonas: like Option<Box<T>> using a null pointer for the Nothing case?
20:56:28 <ais523> and thus not needing a separate tag at all?
20:56:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, although it's more general than that, and complicated
20:57:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know the full rules, and don't want to know
20:57:33 <ais523> right, I was just giving an example of the sort of optimisation you'd expect
20:58:07 * ais523 vaguely wonders if, in the case that you have an enum where all the payloads are pointers with alignment > 1, it's efficient to put the tag in the low-order bits of the pointers
20:58:08 <wob_jonas> basically, usually you let the compiler do its thing, but if you want a specific representation for either passing to or from non-rust code or optimization, then you use structs and unions and enums with specific #[repr] tags to achieve exactly the representation you want, like you can do in C too
20:59:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: it depends on what you want to optimize for, low memory usage like in the heap of a prolog or scheme compiler, or fast computation like in a struct you just filled and pass to a function?
20:59:25 <shachaf> wob_jonas: That also seems like something I'd rather specify in user code instead of as a compiler rule.
20:59:59 <wob_jonas> this is why the compiler has to be conservative with what optimizations it will do, at least when it has to fix the representation for external crates, rather than when it can get away with anything by the as-if rule
21:00:14 <shachaf> If you have enum<T> { One, Two, Three(Box<T>) }, will it use two invalid pointer values (e.g. 0 and 1) for the first two tags?
21:00:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I was mostly just curious as to what the performance was like speed-wise (the memory savings are obvious)
21:00:57 <ais523> 1 is not an invalid pointer value on all platforms; in fact, 0 is not invalid on all platforms either
21:01:09 <ais523> a pointer to 0 might be fairly useful on the 6502
21:01:27 <ais523> (this sort of thing is why C gives flexibility for NULL to be something other than all-bits-zero)
21:01:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: but besides the optimization for when you tell the compiler that the contents of one branch is a nonzero pointer or integer (wrapped in any abstractions) and there's only two branches, there is an optimization for nested enums, and for enums with only one branch where the arm type isn't void, and I think more
21:01:38 <shachaf> But surely on most platforms there are some pointer values that can be considered invalid.
21:01:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: one thing that's not obvious is when you want to put the tag at the start and when at the end
21:01:52 <ais523> at the time there would normally be unmapped bytes in the middle of the memory space, maybe 0xA000 would make for a good NULL
21:01:59 <shachaf> C++ null pointers-to-members are often represented as -1, because 0 is a reasonable offset.
21:02:27 <ais523> what is a pointer-to-member? is it effectively a "function pointer for a getter" but optimised?
21:02:56 <shachaf> It's an offset into a struct, more or less.
21:03:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, if this is "repr(C)" you'd put the tag at the start, because of the guarantees C gives about struct layout
21:03:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: some people say that future rust compilers should reorder fields in structs if that avoids padding fields. it is clear that the current docs allow rust to do this, at least for structs without a #[repr(...)] that excludes that, but I for one don't think it's a good idea to actually do that ever
21:03:39 <shachaf> struct A { int x, y; }; A a; int A::*p = &A::y;
21:04:03 <shachaf> In this case you can use a.*p to get the y from an A
21:04:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: if all the fields in a struct are power-of-2 size they should be stored in reverse size order; perhaps that should be done in the source, though, rather than by the compiler
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21:06:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and there's actually another guaranteed representation case: a "C-like enum" with #[repr(i32)] or almost any other integer type, which is basically one with all arms empty, what get from #[repr(i32)] enum { X, Y, Z } or from #[repr(i32)] enum { X=2, Y=4, Z=3 }
21:07:47 <wob_jonas> I have a totally different OT question, I want to ask it before I forget
21:08:54 <wob_jonas> today's bonus comic https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/laws-and-sausages says that Zach (the creator of SMBC) is launching a new popularized nonfiction webcomic. He teams up with an expert in the nonfiction topic the webcomic popularizes, and with an "artist".
21:09:24 <wob_jonas> My question is, who draws the comics and what does the "artist" do and what the heck Zach does if the artist draws the comics and the expert gives the content?
21:09:48 <ais523> some comics work by assembly from components
21:09:57 <ais523> like, they'll have stock images of their characters, locations, etc.
21:10:07 <ais523> and then to make the comic someone will copy-and-paste the images and add words
21:10:17 <ais523> that tends to be a good way to save time if you have a lot of recurring characters
21:10:21 <wob_jonas> And why do they need an artist if Zach could handle all the art just fine so far.
21:10:25 <ais523> normally you'll have some new art in a comic (but not always!)
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21:11:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: I had heard of a separate letterer or a separate colorist or a separate writer. separate writer might be a good guess for Zach actually, in which case the artist would do all the drawing.
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21:12:52 <wob_jonas> oh. http://lawsandsausagescomic.com/about says "Laws and Sausages is co-written by brothers Greg Weiner and Zach Weinersmith, and drawn by Dennis Culver."
21:13:14 <wob_jonas> so both the expert and zach writes, or so they claim, and the artist draws.
21:15:14 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: on cursive: this https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/comments/69mcom/пиши_русские_буквы_правильно shows some connections (maybe not all form variations but it’s a good start nonetheless); as one can guess, in a connection the letter to the right decides form of the left letter, and it’s a simple rule: whether the right letter starts from down or up. On stroke order I’d approve https://i.pinimg.com/
21:15:14 <arseniiv> originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg
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21:15:34 <arseniiv> oh the link should concatenate to https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg
21:17:15 <arseniiv> also I could make a screencast on writing various things. Can’t say it would be 100% canonical, but all the same, people write differently
21:18:02 <arseniiv> and it would be mouse-writing with all the consequences :D
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21:20:01 <wob_jonas> How is the left stroke of the en written? is that one you're supposed to write after the entire word, like accents and t's stroke, according to teachers, although I never do that?
21:20:23 <wob_jonas> Or is the whole en written in one long unbroken line?
21:21:14 <wob_jonas> Oh, this looks like a version that's designed for writing almost everything in one unbroken line, except the j
21:22:02 <wob_jonas> or perhaps not, because the o with a low connection after looks hard that way
21:24:10 <wob_jonas> and similarly to the en, I wonder how you write the left side of the ju
21:25:54 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Or is the whole en written in one long unbroken line? => this one. I’ll show tomorrow I swear
21:26:27 <wob_jonas> I can try to practice based on this. I'd probably have to write much slower than I usually write latin letter text for myself, but the latin letter text is barely readable (even for me) then
21:27:08 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: well, now I have to remind you. and if you do it, please publish it to somewhere that anyone can watch, like youtube.
21:27:36 <arseniiv> yeah if I write quite fast, the result is a mess. I was doing that at uni
21:27:41 <wob_jonas> and make sure you aren't writing so fast that the video doesn't actually show all the details of the stroke order
21:27:52 <wob_jonas> sure, the uni is where I learned too
21:28:19 <wob_jonas> also some math notation besides latin letter text, and lots of abbreviations
21:28:37 <wob_jonas> in the first few years of university that is
21:28:49 <wob_jonas> it gets less heavy on writing later
21:29:09 <wob_jonas> except on a few exams and competitions
21:29:18 <arseniiv> hm I don’t know if there a difference in math beside digits in cursive
21:29:57 <arseniiv> and punctuation, but I’m unsure about quote marks
21:30:21 <wob_jonas> there was an oral exam where I wrote ten pages, then the teacher, who thought I was good at that subject, told me that if I write even one more line he'll kick me out, but then I placated him by saying that the first five pages are actually not even needed for the part I'm supposed to say so he can just ignore those
21:30:44 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I won't write math in russian
21:31:10 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: you can still do it for other people if you want, but I already know how to write math in Hungarian or English, and don't need it in russian
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21:31:56 <arseniiv> yeah then just digits. The rest is no doubt the same
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21:37:04 <zzo38> Did you see my SQLite extensions by now?
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22:31:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, I won't be able to look at it this evening, it's too late and I found more interesting things
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00:42:03 <esowiki> [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57258&oldid=57248 * Challenger5 * (+2)
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00:57:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57259&oldid=57255 * A * (+0) :(
00:59:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57260&oldid=57259 * A * (+66) Oh no! I have to paste it on the pastebin. :(
01:01:02 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57261&oldid=57260 * A * (+1)
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01:30:15 <oerjan> . o O ( some does, some deer, some female deer )
01:33:02 <oerjan> regarding dictionaries, i am finally getting around to italian songs and am somewhat annoyed that wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented (barring actual IPA, necessary to know stress and vowel quality)
01:34:42 <oerjan> the russian ones are, presumably because it would be insane not to. and greek has mandatory accents so its spelling -> pronunciation correspondence is actually better than italian (but much worse in the opposite direction)
01:35:42 <oerjan> (also the russian entries use a great automatic IPA module)
01:35:48 <alercah> they're not properly accented? blah
01:35:57 <alercah> unless the accents are optional that should be fixed
01:36:09 <oerjan> alercah: they are optional, but you need them in dictionaries
01:36:20 <alercah> that should probably be fixed though
01:36:23 <oerjan> (except at the very last syllable, where they're mandatory)
01:36:29 <alercah> maybe with like "unaccented form of <word>" as a redirect
01:36:42 <alercah> I have search for several languages in english wiktionary as search keywords
01:36:52 <alercah> (by which I mean main wiktionary search, but with #Language at the end
01:37:34 <oerjan> alercah: the russian entries use the unaccented form as the article name but still include accents on the entry itself
01:42:13 <alercah> Irish entries use accents in the page name
01:42:21 <alercah> this is for English wiktionary though
01:44:09 <oerjan> for russian you pretty much have to do it that way because no one uses the accents outside dictionaries and textbooks. they cannot even get the new letter Ё to stick.
01:44:49 <oerjan> (people use Е instead)
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01:48:58 <oerjan> this entry has audio which sounds to me like the accented version would be mèttere, which is wrong https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mettere#Italian
01:49:11 <oerjan> (as i found by checking the italian wiktionary)
01:49:45 <oerjan> the distinction between è and é isn't easy for a norwegian, we pretty much have them as allophones :P
01:51:03 <alercah> things that are allophones in your native language are always difficult to handle
01:51:22 <alercah> I can't really manage palatized/velarized distinction
01:51:23 <oerjan> and ó and ò are similar but perhaps not quite as bad
01:51:46 <oerjan> my dialect has palatal consonants so i got a bit of a head start.
01:51:57 <oerjan> (not all norwegian dialects do)
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01:55:15 <oerjan> although we don't have any velarization, the dark english l helped there.
01:55:51 <oerjan> i think. assuming i actually do it right.
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03:11:09 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> there was an oral exam where I wrote ten pages [...] <-- i think you've got oral exams wrong hth
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03:12:45 <alercah> unless wob_jonas is the doctor
03:17:45 <zzo38> Do you play Scrabble with memoryless wildcards?
03:25:29 <zzo38> Is wob_jonas a doctor?
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03:38:20 <oerjan> i think he may have a doctorate?
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04:14:37 <zzo38> They should add into bsdtar a command to specify the format when reading a archive, to override the autodetection. (It says there is a --format option but it can be used only when writing and not when reading.)
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04:15:49 <Sgeo_> I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures?
04:15:59 <Sgeo_> Factor is not a Lisp but I think qualifies for the latter part
04:18:24 <zzo38> (I originally installed bsdtar because it could read truncated ZIP archives, while 7-Zip and Info-Zip do not.)
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05:00:33 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57262&oldid=56450 * A * (+6)
05:01:32 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57263&oldid=57262 * A * (-156) /* Tutorial */
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09:06:33 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented", "the russian ones are" => in which language Wiktionary? you can check in both the french, the english, and the native one. maybe one of them has the accents or pronunciation.
09:06:45 <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, how about the Lithuanian entries?
09:07:51 <wob_jonas> oerjan: mind you, in the English wiktionary, pronunciation is missing for most English words, and you know how bad the correspondance is there
09:08:32 <wob_jonas> if I'm at home, I can use my paper dictionaries to look up the pronunciation of many words
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09:10:22 <wob_jonas> "maybe with like "unaccented form of <word>" as a redirect" => no no. the unaccented form is the normal form, so it's the page title. but the accents are shown in the bold header of each separate unrelated etimology under the language and possibly etimology headings
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09:11:19 <wob_jonas> you find the unaccented form in normal text, so that's what has to be the page title, and in the rare case when you're reading a children's text, either you remove the accents or there's some bot that creates redirects from the accented form
09:12:06 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's like for English dictionaries that show hyphenation in the headwords. wiktionary could do that, but doesn't for some reason, and the page title would not include the hyphenation dots
09:28:21 <wob_jonas> or Hungarian dictionaries that mark compound words written without the hyphen with a vertical bar in the headword, because that is a concise way to tell the etymology for most of them, and for some compound words you would get the wrong hyphenation otherwise
09:50:03 <wob_jonas> think he may have a doctorate?" => I don't. I started a PhD studies, but stopped, I didn't write a thesis and didn't take the final exams either
09:50:15 <wob_jonas> I also didn't defend a thesis, obviously
09:50:41 <wob_jonas> I did defend the MsC-equivalent thesis and got the MsC-equivalent degree
09:51:22 <wob_jonas> "I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures?" => scheme does, together with a builtin if control structure
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12:55:50 <esowiki> [[Noida]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57265 * Saka * (+3007) Created page with "Noida is an esolang created by [[User:Saka]]. It is designed to be simple and easy to write an interpreter for. Noida is short for "No idea" because I didn't know what to nam..."
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14:42:15 <HackEso> olist 1133: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:42:39 <wob_jonas> Who was the one who guessed there'd be an olist yesterday? You were wrong. But there is one today.
14:43:13 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh hey I’m almost done
14:43:40 <wob_jonas> and getting back to work in a moment
14:43:43 <arseniiv> people mess my concentration however
14:44:16 <arseniiv> no problem, I still will be editing the video after it’s recorded
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15:52:47 <imode> carl hewitt is a crank, change my view.
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16:11:12 <xkapastel> the initial stuff on actors was okay but now he's in to this weird DirectLogic stuff where he posts cryptic ms word documents on arxiv and responds to questions like a fortune cookie
16:11:34 <xkapastel> "Types are fundamental to computation. Lucky numbers 7, 11, 23."
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16:12:46 <imode> oh he went way overboard with actors. his original paper reads like a seriously unhinged person's monologue, nothing of substance, and what's more he's now claiming that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines.
16:13:09 <xkapastel> yeah the real number stuff, due to unbounded nondeterminism i think?
16:13:54 <imode> yeah but he fails to even produce a proof...
16:14:50 <xkapastel> i'm not even a fan of actors these days, they are basically a form of callbacks
16:15:20 <xkapastel> there was at least one person who claimed to understand hewitt's posts on lambda the ultimate but he hasn't been around in a while
16:15:46 <imode> I'd like them to sit down and explain to me what the fuck he's on about to be honest.
16:15:52 <xkapastel> i just want to see a simple directlogic interpreter
16:16:05 <imode> I read the original paper, in all its scanned-in low-res glory, and it was a mess.
16:16:09 <imode> no actual formalisms.
16:16:21 <imode> I haven't seen DirectLogic, I'll look that up.
16:16:52 <xkapastel> it's connected to his new ActorScript stuff, supposedly some kind of "inconsistency robust" logic
16:17:13 <imode> how in the world is he going to handle that.
16:17:14 <xkapastel> ActorScript itself is not very well defined
16:17:28 <xkapastel> and he seems to introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up
16:17:34 <xkapastel> based on what you can see in the arxiv docs
16:17:58 <xkapastel> if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it
16:18:02 <xkapastel> but all he does is write ms word docs
16:18:16 <imode> we have "inconsistency robust" logic, it's called computation.
16:18:39 <imode> the hell is he on about..
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16:19:07 <imode> http://www.subjectcentric.com/posts/carl_hewitt_s_direct_logic__inconsistency_tolerant_reasoning_and_subject-centric_computing/ I found this on Direct Logic.
16:20:28 <imode> "it means we have arguments for both P and ~P" okay, while that says nothing about the truth value of the proposition, what in the world can you say with that formula.
16:21:00 <xkapastel> well, paraconsistent logic is a thing
16:21:21 <xkapastel> there are ways of dealing with knowledge bases that contain both `P` and `not P`
16:21:31 <xkapastel> the thing is, hewitt doesn't really describe how his works
16:21:33 <imode> right, but is that really all direct logic is.
16:21:46 <xkapastel> it's not clear what direct logic is, because it makes all sorts of grandiose claims
16:21:56 <xkapastel> for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems
16:22:05 <xkapastel> he claims the second one is actually incorrect
16:22:09 <imode> now that would be a fuckin' sight.
16:22:44 <xkapastel> iirc he claims direct logic is both sound and complete and capable of expressing properties of real numbers
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16:22:55 <imode> got any links to some of the more "focused" papers he's published?
16:22:59 <imode> or, should I say, uploaded.
16:23:20 <xkapastel> none of the stuff is focused, that's what i've been getting at
16:23:29 <xkapastel> if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting, even if he's wrong
16:23:38 <xkapastel> people have made grandiose claims and been wrong before, i don't hold that against them
16:23:45 <xkapastel> what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process
16:24:15 <xkapastel> it's just a tease, he claims to have this great idea which is almost certainly wrong but still interesting, but he'll never actually describe it to you
16:24:18 <imode> it's an attempt to delay the discovery that he's full of shit.
16:24:33 <imode> he apparently has quite the cult of personality.
16:25:32 <imode> https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I'm going in.
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16:28:27 <imode> well, he's stated the abstract 4 times.
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16:29:04 <imode> my god there's more quotes than self-authored material.
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16:29:50 <imode> dave ackley has more coherence than this guy.
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16:36:49 <imode> okay, so he walked through how to derive inconsistency using a catch-22. he then shows the same derivations in almost exactly the same notation (only THIS TIME he's writing `catch-22` on everything) with little to no changes, other than he doesn't discard the contradiction.
16:37:34 <imode> he's restated the abstract another 10 times.
16:42:58 <imode> 35 pages down, and I wish I was kidding but these pages are so short.
16:44:05 <imode> there is a god damn quote on every page.
16:45:29 <imode> okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper, and now we're at the appendix. "Details of Direct Logic".
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16:47:30 <imode> "you can't parse real numbers." thank you, carl, I didn't know that.
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16:49:00 <imode> he appears to be constructing some kind of meta-logic that actually differentiates between different kinds of logical objects. you can reason over types, booleans, natural numbers, propositions, proofs, and theories.. okay, that's higher-order logic.
16:49:29 <imode> I forgot sentences in there.
16:50:29 <imode> meaning you can reason about the actual formulas, the string forms of said formulas, and some indirect references to other formulas.
16:50:48 <imode> this man likes his unicode.
16:51:17 <imode> there are seperate inference rules for the different types.
16:54:10 <imode> and a few pages later, there's nothing actually addressing the concept of inconsistency.
16:56:20 <imode> he strikes me as a sort of George Spencer Brown figure.
16:57:45 <imode> xkapastel: you were right, that was incredibly... unhinged. I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao) but I never expected it to come from a "well-cited" source like Hewitt.
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17:26:31 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c
17:27:12 <arseniiv> an imperfection-rich thing about cursive
17:27:33 <arseniiv> hope it’s more useful than harmful :D
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19:07:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57267&oldid=57093 * DMC * (+35)
19:16:14 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57268&oldid=54961 * DMC * (+36) /* Examples */
19:20:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cmax521 * New user account
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19:22:54 <wob_jonas> imode: "that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines." => I hope it's not just a cheap marketing shot where he later proves that they're actually equivalent to turing machines with a random source
19:23:23 <wob_jonas> becuse these days we tend to think those are probably equivalent
19:25:08 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up" => ugly
19:25:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57269&oldid=57135 * Cmax521 * (+142) /* Introductions */
19:25:54 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it / but all he does is write ms word docs" => so there's no interpreter, not even a partial one?
19:26:32 <imode> yeah there's nothing of substance in anything he writes.
19:26:57 <imode> wob_jonas: his argument is "unbounded determinism" yields hypercomputation.
19:27:01 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems / he claims the second one is actually incorrect" => ah, it's getting worse
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19:27:37 <wob_jonas> imode: doesn't that mean that it's impossible to interpret on a turing-machine or subset then?
19:27:51 <imode> which is total bullshit.
19:27:53 <wob_jonas> so that's why he doesn't have an interpreter
19:28:26 <imode> just because our machines are LBMs doesn't stop us from simulating TMs.
19:28:34 <imode> so that should be easy for him...
19:28:51 <wob_jonas> "if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting" => I have a better idea, we could just tell him some good references to read first instead, in his free time
19:29:06 <wob_jonas> maybe he can be educated if he gets good books
19:29:36 <imode> he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image.
19:30:23 <wob_jonas> "what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process" => yes, so let's just ignore what he says and send him to read books
19:31:01 <wob_jonas> "he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image." => does he just make an autobiography page with no references, or does he also add reasonable references, like articles accepted by respected journals or something?
19:31:14 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACarl_Hewitt%2FArchive_2
19:31:21 <wob_jonas> also, I'd ask which language of wikipedia, but if he only reads English, then it's sort of obvious
19:31:34 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carl_Hewitt
19:32:23 <imode> he's such a crank..
19:32:41 <wob_jonas> then it's not worth worrying about, at least as an esolanger, since the wikipedians already see the problem and delete his autobio article. I don't care if he writes some angry messages, people are good enough to ignore those.
19:33:04 <imode> he's uploaded to arxiv too.
19:33:08 <wob_jonas> you'd only have to worry if he managed to get his autobiography page contain the inflated claims and remain there.
19:33:10 <imode> if you read back I went over his paper.
19:33:34 <imode> I'd like to say it was a brief cursory reading but there wasn't much in there. the bibliography was half of it.
19:33:52 <imode> the real challenge for carl hewitt is to find a page that doesn't have a quote from somebody else on it.
19:33:58 <wob_jonas> imode: meh, so what. everyone knows arxiv can contain preprints, and that you can change the metadata later to indicate which journal has accepted the article, with a full reference, that people can then check in the journal
19:34:35 <imode> https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I want you to read this.
19:34:40 <wob_jonas> if he uploads some nonsense to arxiv, I wouldn't worry about. if he spams arxiv, arxiv probably has a way to deal with it
19:34:46 <wob_jonas> imode: I really don't have the time, sorry
19:35:11 <imode> ohoho, if you can find the time, read it. it's worth your while.
19:35:14 <wob_jonas> jesus, that's not an abstract for an article. what's this, a full book?
19:35:25 <imode> it's 104 pages of pure unadulterated bullshit.
19:35:37 <wob_jonas> imode: certainly not today for the 104 pages. and I don't think I will ever find the time for that, sorry.
19:35:46 <imode> it's okay. half of them are the bibliography.
19:35:46 <int-e> wow, 102 revisions so far
19:36:21 <imode> (in reality, a third of them are. the other third are the actual paper, which is mostly quotes, and the appendices, which are also mostly quotes.)
19:37:52 <imode> int-e: I'd love to get a friggin' diff because I can't imagine anything of substance was changed.
19:37:59 <wob_jonas> imode: great, the abstract really seems to say that his model is uncomputable
19:38:59 <wob_jonas> imode: it's PDF-only, so diffing will almost certainly be difficult
19:39:07 <wob_jonas> he doesn't upload whatever was the source of the PDF
19:39:43 <wob_jonas> "my god there's more quotes than self-authored material." => wow
19:40:44 <wob_jonas> "okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper" => that happens, but for a 104 page long paper it's unusual. but he has to source all those quotes he has, right?
19:41:07 <imode> yeah, that's my point.
19:41:19 <imode> the number of quotes is equal to the number of bibliography entries...
19:42:17 <wob_jonas> my record, out of a total of 4 scientific articles, not counting conference procedings and conference slides (for they usually don't have a full bibliography) is
19:43:27 <wob_jonas> an article with 53 references on 4 pages, plus 11 pages of body, plus a page for abstract and a title page. this is in the preprint, the journal's version has less whitespace around the title I think.
19:44:35 <wob_jonas> I'm too lazy to check the journal final version, but I think it also has close to 53 bibliographic references
19:44:56 <wob_jonas> it's formatted differently so the page numbers are entirely different
19:45:37 <wob_jonas> but it's a journal that I think exists printed, or at least is formatted as if it existed printed, so the formatting is compact with a small page and narrow margins and all that stuff
19:46:40 <wob_jonas> I don't recall, but I think they even do that age old nonsense where they forcibly put the paper author names as initial plus surname format, because THAT would take up too much space in a mathematical paper
19:47:00 <wob_jonas> (this isn't a physics/biology journal with 100+ member teams sending in articles)
19:47:10 <wob_jonas> and might reformat the bibliography too, I dunno
19:47:18 <int-e> The argument that actors are more powerful than non-deterministic Turing machines is quite ridiculous to me. (I see no useful difference between a machine that is guaranteed to terminate but can take an arbitrary long time for that, and a machine that terminates with probability 1)
19:47:35 <wob_jonas> I might be mixing it up with another journal
19:48:34 <wob_jonas> int-e: there is probably no computational difference for decision problems (but not for problems that require a random output obviously), except possibly a polynomial overhead, but maths is very far from being able to prove that,
19:49:00 <wob_jonas> it's like a major result that might take quarter as much time or twice as much time as P!=NP from now
19:50:08 <int-e> "Mathematics self proves its own consistency." -- assuming completeness.
19:50:36 <imode> it's like hilbert, but on meth.
19:50:45 <wob_jonas> "I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao)" => wait what?
19:51:03 <imode> what do you take issue with with that statement.
19:51:11 <wob_jonas> Hofstadter barely wrote any crank mathematics, most of his book is fiction, and the maths part is not perfect but not crank either;
19:51:32 <imode> I regard him as a crank because like Hewitt he fails to produce anything of actual value.
19:51:43 <wob_jonas> and the time cube guy is a crank but I don't think he has any mathematics on his page, though I haven't read the whole page I admit;
19:51:58 <int-e> imode: you should give some credit to being substantially correct
19:51:59 <imode> a post on HN summarized my feelings on the book.
19:52:09 <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
19:52:20 <imode> https://blog.infinitenegativeutility.com/2018/7/why-i-dont-love-godel-escher-bach
19:52:38 <wob_jonas> imode: I'm not saying you should love the book. you can hate it. but it's not crank mathematics.
19:52:43 <wob_jonas> you can hate it for lots of other reasons
19:52:55 <imode> I suggest reading that if you want a synonymous opinion.
19:53:24 <wob_jonas> he might have crank philosophy, and most useless but mostly correct mathematics, and fiction, in the same book
19:53:57 <imode> I classify him as a crank because he doesn't bring anything of merit to the table, and what explanations he tries to give fall short of actually conveying anything useful.
19:54:16 <wob_jonas> if you want crank mathematics, I can give better examples. t'Hooft's physics stuff, Wolfram's physics stuff, both based on bad mathematics and physics
19:54:25 <imode> ohoho I count physics.
19:54:32 <wob_jonas> imode: yes, he might be a crank, but not crank mathematics
19:54:44 <wob_jonas> imode: he has crank stuff and useless mathematics in the same book
19:54:58 <wob_jonas> and fiction that some of us actually find enjoyable
19:55:20 <imode> I'm surprised you take such offense.
19:55:52 <wob_jonas> in some universities, a small amount of people graduate but the university people knows that he's dangerous if he gets out in the outer world. this happens most often in medical university, but can happen in maths too.
19:56:03 <imode> it's not going to really change my view on hofstader.
19:56:29 <wob_jonas> in those cases, a good solution is to convince the guy to remain as a professor or researcher in the university or some other uni or research place, and pay him for not doing real world work.
19:56:39 <imode> and yes, I know of the "my supervisor's keeper" clause. ;)
19:57:05 <wob_jonas> the students and professors in the university quickly recognize that he's a crank professor, and take his lectures as a joke.
19:57:09 <Hooloovo0> the time cube guy does lots of math
19:57:24 <Hooloovo0> none of it is logical or makes any sense, but apparently he thought there was a proof in there?
19:57:32 <wob_jonas> that's not dangerous, because the students in the university aren't harmed much by having a useless class the don't attend and get an easy A
19:57:35 <imode> listen, you're just not living in 5D.
19:57:55 <int-e> I think "crank" is the wrong term, which I would like to reserve for people who invent their own crazy theories.
19:58:05 <imode> starting to think so too.
19:58:14 <wob_jonas> on the other hand, if the same person got out in the real world to patients, he would damage the health of many of his patients before the patient catches on that he's a bad doctor. some patient catches on, but some don't, or not quickly enough.
19:58:18 <imode> but it just feels like the right term.
19:58:46 <wob_jonas> this system doesn't catch everyone, and there are still bad doctors out there for various reasons, but some doctors are stopped this way.
19:59:01 <wob_jonas> they're paid from state tuition, like the crank doctor would be payed, so it's all the same.
19:59:26 <imode> so what's the overarching point tho.
19:59:28 <wob_jonas> imode: what's the 5D about? time cube?
19:59:37 <imode> was in response to Hooloovo0.
19:59:51 <wob_jonas> yeah, but I also claimed that he doesn't do maths
19:59:53 <Hooloovo0> http://web.archive.org/web/20070927220333/http://www.lib.hcu.edu.tw/journal/files/CAS/CAS0206.pdf
20:00:13 <wob_jonas> I didn't recognize any of what he did as maths, but maybe I'm not imaginative or haven't read enough crank math
20:00:25 <wob_jonas> it didn't seem to be intended as math to my eyes
20:00:44 <int-e> imode: And just to be clear and can totally understand hating his book(s)... I'm not sure I could read GEB these days. I liked it as a late teenager.
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20:01:37 <imode> I guess Hofstader shouldn't be classified as a crank.
20:01:44 <wob_jonas> I think I just saw it as all meaningless statements that are trying to motivate people to do something, that is, politics, although a rather bad attempt at that
20:01:51 <imode> just somebody who really shouldn't be that notable.
20:01:52 <imode> fake celebrity, I guess?
20:02:24 <wob_jonas> when a politician talks about global warming and what he wants to do about it, I don't think he's talking physics. I take it as talking politics, with physics jargon because that's what politicians do if it helps them.
20:03:14 <wob_jonas> my default is that politics talk is mostly meaningless, and I have to leave it to politologists to read everything and figure out what the guy will actually do,
20:04:01 <wob_jonas> and then either blog about that in a meaningful way, without the political talk nonsense, like saying that he believes if this politician is elected, he'll build more nuclear power plants, or whatever
20:04:48 <wob_jonas> and then he blogs about it, or publishes in politology journals if he feels like he needs grants, and tells it to journalists who generally distort the whole thing and tell it on news websites
20:05:06 <wob_jonas> and of course he can be factually wrong about his predictions, even consistently if he's a bad politologist
20:05:33 <imode> I'm gonna be honest, I've only skimmed the time cube guy's page.
20:05:36 <wob_jonas> but so what? my aim isn't to become a better politologist than the ones I can read if I really want to know who to elect or when to leave the country
20:05:58 <wob_jonas> imode: some years ago I read a few pages (it's text with huge font, mind you)
20:06:06 <wob_jonas> (I think I actually zoomed it out, rare with a webpage)
20:06:21 <wob_jonas> there's still a copy linked from wikipedia if you want
20:06:32 <imode> lmao, I've had my fill of crank shit today.
20:06:33 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
20:06:56 <wob_jonas> admittedly, I wrote that, so it could be biased to what I want to imply about him
20:06:59 <imode> I want a shirt that says "Educated Stupid".
20:07:29 <wob_jonas> anyway, he's very bad even as a politician, and I don't think he managed to achieve anything other than making a meme
20:07:33 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
20:08:02 <wob_jonas> I don't think he got any of what he actually asks people to do in that, like killing your teachers or whatever it was
20:08:13 <imode> like I said, you just need to step back into the fifth dimension.
20:08:22 <imode> all will make sense when things stop making sense.
20:09:17 <wob_jonas> uh, there are science fantasy films about the fifth dimension. there's even a really good one: the Phineas and Ferb movie (I'm not sure about its title)
20:09:25 <wob_jonas> I can look up the title if you care
20:09:35 <wob_jonas> I know, but since it's a good film
20:09:54 <wob_jonas> it's a better film if you watch enough of the show first to know the general setting and characters
20:10:06 <wob_jonas> so it's not a film I recommend watching first if you haven't yet watched the show
20:10:21 <wob_jonas> but if you have watched the show, even just like half a season of it, any random half a season, then it's good
20:11:04 <wob_jonas> like, you have to know who all the main characters are and their basic relationships, because in the film there isn't enough introduction and everything changes because of a catastrophe they have to fix
20:11:14 <wob_jonas> and it works MUCH better if you already know the original situation
20:11:31 <int-e> Dear Carl, just adding the modifier "Inconsistency-robust" to the names of the elements of a more or less standard sequent calculus does not make it paraconsistent. In particular, you have enough rules to prove p /\ -p |- q /\ -q.
20:11:33 <wob_jonas> but the TV series is good too, although not everyone is a target audience
20:11:49 <imode> int-e: that's exactly the conclusion I came to.
20:12:02 <imode> there's nothing of substance..
20:12:45 <wob_jonas> it's a show that doesn't take itself seriously, with not much logical consistency and much more emphasis on the character's motivations, and then just not caring if what they do makes sense even in a fantasy world,
20:13:28 <wob_jonas> sort of like Harry Potter or Star Wars, but much less serious time and much more jokes and whole episodes played for fun, while the character motivations are still consistent (except when they're mind-controlled etc)
20:14:03 <wob_jonas> but if you like those types of media, then I recommen Phineas & Ferb
20:14:32 <wob_jonas> I'm saying this in the wrong place
20:14:46 <wob_jonas> let me quickly copy-paste it to another forum where more people listen
20:15:22 <wob_jonas> actually, I should only copy it and make a blog post from it to its blog
20:18:16 <int-e> imode: Actually I might still enjoy GEB. I just have to skip the formal parts :P
20:18:52 <int-e> The perfect record player plot was cute.
20:19:04 <imode> int-e: the problem is I have an implicit assumption going in: that all the romance talk is going to lead up to an eventual climax: some actual fucking.
20:19:23 <int-e> shachaf: it ... resonated with me.
20:19:26 <shachaf> What about a record player that has two disassembly components, where each one can disassemble the other one?
20:19:38 <wob_jonas> I don't think I'll read the GEB review, sorry. I've read it, I like it, and since I'm a mathematician I think I did realize that the mathematics part doesn't add anything I didn't know from better sources, and the DNA stuff was pure useless nonsense.
20:19:40 <shachaf> I felt like there were all sorts of reasonable objections that weren't raised.
20:19:54 <imode> hofstader just kinda tells you the shit he's gonna do you, and then dines-and-dashes.
20:20:29 <wob_jonas> imode: there is a climax. it's not fucking, and it's not anything you learn about science. it's a climax in the fiction parts, and a decent one at that.
20:20:38 <imode> shachaf: thank you. the point of an analogy is to draw direct comparisons as a gateway to knowledge.
20:20:48 <wob_jonas> not, like, what you get from your favourite fiction author, but still a decent one.
20:21:02 <HackEso> 102) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 409) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace \ 494) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...
20:21:06 <imode> wob_jonas: if I wanted fiction I'd read fiction, not something masking itself as nonfiction.
20:21:44 <wob_jonas> if you read it with the expectation that it will be like Smullyan's books, that teach you some actual mathematics in the climax, then it's a flop
20:21:49 <wob_jonas> but that shouldn't be your expectation
20:22:06 <imode> what should be my expectation of a book that tells me it's about the real world.
20:22:11 <wob_jonas> he's not Smullyan, he's just a long-time friend
20:22:25 <int-e> imode: well, obviously it depends
20:22:26 <wob_jonas> by the way RIP Smullyan, I'll be missing you
20:22:48 <imode> like, you can defend this all you want, it's not going to change the fact that it shouldn't be held up on a pedestal like it currently is.
20:23:00 <wob_jonas> imode: come on, half of it was dialogs that are obviously fantastic fiction. why'd you read it as non-fiction? was it the Smullyan expectation?
20:23:17 <wob_jonas> did you seriously expect that there's anyone else who's as good as Smullyan in the exact same genre?
20:23:31 <wob_jonas> didn't Smullyan's, you know, reputation get to you?
20:23:34 <imode> no, it's that dialogues are intended to expound on something.
20:23:40 <wob_jonas> if you read it with that expectation, I'm sorry
20:23:47 <wob_jonas> then I can understand you didn't like it
20:24:05 <imode> they're used as an investigative tool. and I don't feel Hofstader gave me any sort of conclusion.
20:24:10 <wob_jonas> imode: no, they were fun. that's how I read most fiction books too. it's rare that I can learn something from them.
20:24:12 <imode> other than talking lavishly about... a lot of nothing.
20:24:23 <imode> listen, you're trying to defend a book you like, I get that.
20:24:38 <imode> you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao.
20:24:51 <imode> sorry if you took offense to what I've been saying.
20:25:06 <wob_jonas> there's even clearly fiction books that do have a message (or Aesop if you want) but the message is one I don't like, yet I read the fiction book and actually enjoyed it, because I enjoyed the style and characters and decent writing, and ignored the message
20:26:39 <imode> my final thoughts are that you can't take a book parading itself as nonfiction and judge it as a work of fiction in order to praise what you think are good aspects about it in order to avoid negative judgements.
20:27:00 <wob_jonas> the specific book that was most like that is Julie Bertagna, <i>Exodus</i>
20:28:02 <wob_jonas> "you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao" => ok, if you don't want to talk about it, I can stop. but sometimes, when I talk on the internet with people I actually know about works that one of us enjoyed more than the other,
20:28:36 <wob_jonas> and we tell what we liked and what we didn't, the end result is that I get to enjoy the work better, especially if I then re-read or rewatch the same work with the conversation in mind.
20:28:51 <wob_jonas> it doesn't always work, because sometimes the work still doesn't work for me (sorry for the pun)
20:29:16 <wob_jonas> I do this a lot for TV series episodes of My Little Pony: FIM, but I think it works for other fiction too, which is why I'm trying
20:29:22 <wob_jonas> if you don't want to listen, then I can stop
20:30:32 <wob_jonas> and I think it paraded itself as pop nonfiction at worst, and I already knew not to expect much from pop nonfiction by then,
20:31:18 <wob_jonas> because when I was young, I read a lot of children's pop nonfiction books, and I liked them, but when I grew up and learned about the world, I realized that most of those pop nonfiction books were actually really bad, if you take them at face value
20:31:36 <wob_jonas> most primary school textbooks also are, by the way
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21:08:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh you’ve watched P & F too
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21:09:12 <wob_jonas> I'm missing some mostly from the later seasons
21:09:30 <wob_jonas> but there are a lot of good episodes I've watched three or more times
21:10:15 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: what does "too" mean? have you watched P & F? or is it that I watched practically all MLP and most of P & F too?
21:16:36 <arseniiv> BTW have anybody watched my vid?
21:18:47 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: have you watched P & F? => this one
21:22:40 <wob_jonas> can you please post the link again?
21:22:44 <arseniiv> also on ways of treating art: I had gained much when I started not to skip parts that seem boring. With good authors, it really pays later, I’d come to thing
21:23:05 <wob_jonas> I appreciate you training handwriting by the way. we need more online lectures on that.
21:23:10 <arseniiv> absoutely can, here it is: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c
21:23:37 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I know. I love typography and calligraphy, both restricted to the recent European subset
21:23:44 <arseniiv> thank you, but you better watch it first, I’m afraid it’s too messy
21:24:19 <wob_jonas> sure, I'm thanking the attempt in first place. if you fail, it might still push others to make a better video if I tell them that this is the best you could get.
21:25:28 <wob_jonas> let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Illustrations_to_J%C3%A1nos_Arany%27s_ballads_by_Mih%C3%A1ly_Zichy
21:25:55 <wob_jonas> (you can also buy it on dead tree if you're in Hungary)
21:26:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh, I have a friend who for some time does calligraphy as a hobby, it’s interesting, and he even promised to write a page of text from Summa Logicae somewhere in the future :)
21:26:55 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end?
21:27:19 <wob_jonas> Summa Logicae => in what language is that?
21:28:06 <wob_jonas> I am not interested in learning calligraphy myself anymore, I am more interested in doing typography myself, it's just that I appreciate both
21:28:20 <wob_jonas> I just want to learn the basics of handwriting in Russian for the reasons I had told you
21:28:42 <wob_jonas> I know the basics of Hungarian handwriting
21:29:27 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály => ah, thanks! Really appeals to the eyes, and I haven’t seen this style before. I’ll show these to my friend
21:29:45 <arseniiv> I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end? => as you wish
21:30:31 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online
21:30:48 <wob_jonas> I don't know of any other pieces of calligraphy he's done available online though.
21:30:50 <arseniiv> in what language is that? => latin, it’s by William [of] Ockham
21:33:23 <wob_jonas> I'd really have liked if he added "A hamis tanú" and "A kép-mutogató" to that series, but alas, he didn't, and he's dead since 1906.
21:33:35 <arseniiv> is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online => I didn’t concentrated on drawings yet, but yes they at least match the handwriting
21:34:50 <wob_jonas> The best we could get is to commission a really good painter-forger and a really good calligrapher-forger to make those imitating his style, but such a comission would cost more than a car in my estimate, and I don't think there'd be enough backers on a crowdforging site and I don't have the money myself, so I haven't even tried to ask a price quot
21:36:10 <wob_jonas> they at least match the handwriting => yes, it's by the same hand, and from the same volumes composed together. I think he actually drew the letters overlapping the images on the original.
21:37:26 <wob_jonas> and I think the original 1989 volume wasn't even made with the easy modern photographic technique that can copy basically any drawing in high fidelity, he had to do it the hard way, with whatever the one of the other two methods were for this than etching back then (it's not etching)
21:38:35 <wob_jonas> the modern reprint, of course, uses digital photography and digital printing, but since it's in a high enough quality (you can see the printed dot pattern if you zoom in, I scanned in 600 dpi to avoid most of the Moiré), I don't mind
21:39:59 <wob_jonas> I could get on-site access to the original edition in libraries, and in fact had seen two of the four volumes earlier, but it would be hard and expensive to get them to photograph it (it's an old book so libraries won't scan, they'll only photograph),
21:41:04 <wob_jonas> I chose the cheap solution and bought a throwaway copy of the reprint, I destroyed it with my heart bleading on destroying a copy of such a beautiful book while I cut open the binding and actually cut into many pages during.
21:41:31 <arseniiv> (the last couple of minutes I think I think shallowly. You tell interesting things and I can’t properly respond to them)
21:41:37 <wob_jonas> In retrospect, most of that wouldn't have been necessary, I would only have had to remove the outer hard cover to be able to scan, but I didn't realize that back then.
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> Would have destroyed the book anyway, so it doesn't matter much in the end.
21:42:45 <wob_jonas> It's not entirely destroyed, since that would have made scanning impossible, all the single pages are still intact, so I can read it carefully at home.
21:43:07 <wob_jonas> And if that weren't so, I could buy a new copy. The reprint is cheap (around 6000 HUF) for what it's worth.
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21:43:45 <wob_jonas> But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise.
21:43:54 <arseniiv> (I can’t write properly, sorry)
21:44:06 <arseniiv> But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise. => totally agree
21:44:23 <wob_jonas> I hope some of them will buy a copy of the reprint so they have a print copy, thus supporting the publisher to whom I owe a big thanks for reprinting this.
21:44:52 <arseniiv> maybe I should scan something thin and softcover if I find out it’s rare and interesting
21:45:05 <wob_jonas> The reprint is from 2016, so they actually did the expensive digitizing process in a much more professional way then I could have payed for. I would not have done that.
21:45:47 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I have suggestions. Where do you live?
21:46:56 <wob_jonas> There are two Jules Verne books with beautiful illustrations by Jules-Descartes Férat (1829–1906) engraved by Charles Barbant (1844—1922)
21:47:37 <wob_jonas> They're in public domain and there are reprint version available, at least in Hungary, usually together with the bad old public domain translations.
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21:48:13 <wob_jonas> There are low resolution scans of them online already, but no good high res ones.
21:48:23 <wob_jonas> I'm working on it, but if you want to speed it up, I'd appreciate it.
21:48:46 <wob_jonas> The books aren't technically thin, but if you only scan the etchings, not the text, then it's not many pages.
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21:49:08 <wob_jonas> You'll need a decent scanner. I used a copy shop one, which isn't perfect, but is cheap.
21:49:41 <wob_jonas> There's a professional service for this, but I don't want to cough the money up for that yet, except for a few very valuable family photos that they can scan better than I could.
21:50:07 <wob_jonas> (I'm also scanning family photos for my family, not for publishing. Different project, but can do with same trip sometimes.)
21:51:11 <wob_jonas> There's no need to scan the text of any Verne, most public domain translations and all originals are already not only scanned but digitized to text and proofread and published.
21:51:29 <wob_jonas> The exception were if any happened to go out of copyright around now, but I don't know of any such translation.
21:52:09 <arseniiv> hm, I didn’t think that far. I’m in Russia in a more or less big city, and for these books it’s possible to be in the library somewhere near (though I doubt it, maybe in Moscow or St. Petersburg, I’m far from these), but I can’t say I’m into libraries and I had never scanned a book
21:52:39 <wob_jonas> If you make anything publishable and in public domain, please either publish to Wikimedia Commons, or ping me or them after you publish so I can upload it to there.
21:52:53 <wob_jonas> I can help in the uploading and metadata on Commons if you want.
21:53:16 <wob_jonas> Also, if you can, ping me in advance if you do it with this specific case, so we don't do redundant work.
21:53:53 <wob_jonas> But only do this if it actually causes you pleasure. Nobody will compensate you by money for this, unless you somehow solve that yourself.
21:54:04 <wob_jonas> And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it.
21:54:36 <wob_jonas> This one is just my favourite etcher.
21:55:19 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: okay! I doubt I could help with this case, but thanks for both offers
21:55:32 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it. => agree
21:56:27 <wob_jonas> Commons already has a copy of all the low res scans by http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , a site that honors Jules Verne's books *original* illustrations (rather than the crap some publishers put in in 2050 to 2000, when the photographing tech wasn't yet cheap or possible at all, or the original drawing wasn't yet out of copyright, and they couldn't
21:56:27 <wob_jonas> get their hands on the original etch master plates.
21:56:57 <wob_jonas> I think the old translations around 1900 actually borrowed the original plates of etching, which is real impressive.
21:57:20 <wob_jonas> By the way, some of them, including the one I already published, uses the original plates but messed up the printing process, so the drawings come out too dark and some details are invisible.
21:58:00 <wob_jonas> I have scans of half of the drawings of this same book (Indes Noires) from another edition (the Szegő György translation) waiting on my hard drive to edit and publish.
21:58:38 <wob_jonas> Also, I should really make more backups of my hard disk, although I think I have a single backup of those scans.
21:59:02 <wob_jonas> Ok, I should finish ranting and watch that video like I promised.
21:59:56 <wob_jonas> But really, look at http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , you might find an illustrator and etcher whose style you prefer over Jules-Descartes Férat and Charles Barbant
22:00:05 <wob_jonas> I can't claim that they're objectively the best
22:00:19 <arseniiv> it’s very nice to read your “ranting”, I should say
22:00:43 <wob_jonas> Yes, but I never get to watch the video. It's already past midnight and I should work tomorrow and I'm already on like -4 hours sleep.
22:01:02 <arseniiv> maybe you expect too much of silly me, though :D
22:01:05 <wob_jonas> And I wanted to do other things today too, but don't we always?
22:01:17 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I want to give feedback.
22:01:42 <wob_jonas> I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end?
22:02:16 <wob_jonas> Is there supposed to be any sound?
22:03:25 <arseniiv> also, it’s almost half a hour, and I’m personally going to sleep, so you could technically watch it tomorrow, I absolutely don’t mind
22:04:55 <wob_jonas> "privet!" I think. I'm not sure that's a p, but a p would make sense.
22:05:42 <wob_jonas> (I have to learn to read this too, if I want to write it for myself.)
22:08:26 <wob_jonas> "Aplê..." let me get those drawings from yesterday
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22:09:59 <wob_jonas> that looks more like a "p" though. what's the deal with the "p" in "privet!"?
22:11:58 <int-e> what do you mean by "what's the deal" with the "п" in "привет!"?
22:12:41 <wob_jonas> int-e: in the video, it looks strange. and this is a video demonstrating a consistent form of handwriting, so if it were strange, ar' would have edited it out
22:12:51 <wob_jonas> so I think there's something I don't understand there.
22:13:00 <wob_jonas> It doesn't look like a "P" either.
22:13:13 <int-e> (I would think it's derived from π not p)
22:13:27 <wob_jonas> sorry for using the ISO-9 transcription by the way, I don't have an easy way to type the russian characters, but I can type these easily
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22:13:57 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but there's a normal shaped p right in "Aplêičau" on the next slide
22:13:58 <int-e> same for the russian Р vs grrek Ρ.
22:14:22 * int-e isn't going to watch any video now.
22:14:25 <wob_jonas> yes yes, I know. The russian r looks somewhat like the latin p. I know that.
22:15:32 <wob_jonas> The context is, I know the russian alphabet, I just want to learn how to handwrite it, because it annoys me that I can't jot down russian names in notes, and I'm using ISO-9 transcription handwritten instead, which works but hurts me inside.
22:16:02 <wob_jonas> And arseniiv volunteered to teach the handwriting he learned, because he agreed there are no good enough tutorials on the internet.
22:16:24 <wob_jonas> I don't expect his video to be perfect, but he won't just leave a bad letter in there.
22:16:44 <wob_jonas> He said he edits the video, so he would have replaced any obviously bad parts, so I refuse that explanation.
22:17:21 <wob_jonas> Ah no, it's "Aplêjčau", you write the brevis after the rest, I paused too soon. That even sounds more like a word.
22:18:31 <int-e> the "cursive" column from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_alphabet matches what I remember.\
22:18:47 <int-e> I have no clue what "Aplêjčau" is.
22:19:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: ar' gave better links yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/comments/69mcom/%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B2%D1%8B_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE/ https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg
22:19:43 <wob_jonas> my guess is Appalachian mountains, in America
22:19:52 <wob_jonas> but that's just a guess, I didn't check a dictionary
22:20:01 <int-e> STUPID Firefox... when I make a selection in my terminal, please follow X standards and forget your own selection so that I can actually paste what I marked?!?!
22:20:39 <wob_jonas> (Referencing the drawings for the "B" word too.)
22:22:31 <wob_jonas> nice mousewriting, I couldn't draw such a continuous line with a mouse
22:22:51 <wob_jonas> or very nice video editing to hide the jumps
22:26:14 <wob_jonas> "Gimalai" more mountains, although this one has a strange spelling, ending in "ai"
22:28:26 <wob_jonas> "Enisej" the river in Russia, right?
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22:30:20 <Sgeo_> shachaf, there will be no olist this past Monday, but there will be one earlier today.
22:31:22 <wob_jonas> "Ëtunžejt" and you write the diaresis and the brevis in the Right^{TM} order, not the French order. good. they haven't infected your education with that nonsense yet.
22:33:07 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ap_Lei_Chau is Аплєйчау
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22:34:50 <wob_jonas> "Zanzibar", we're at the capital letters that are hard to write now.
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22:35:43 <wob_jonas> (I don't mean "I" of course. that's an easy one.)
22:37:01 <wob_jonas> (well, for me that is, because it's the same as a latin "U" would be in this style)
22:40:28 <wob_jonas> but I could be confusing letters of course
22:43:24 <wob_jonas> another hard one (it looks easy, but I'm sure it's hard to write in a way that I can read it unambiguously too) "Labraziâ" wait, you lifted your pen during that "r" I think
22:43:44 <wob_jonas> we'll see later in the video if that's how "r" is supposed to work, I guess
22:45:56 <wob_jonas> "Merkurij" and I think this time you didn't lift your pen during either "r", but you did during "k", which looks more reasonable. Also, that's a scary example name to me.
22:46:44 <wob_jonas> ah yes. the lower case "n" does look hard, good thing you wrote it three times here.
22:47:17 <wob_jonas> "Nil" three letters? I feel shortcharged for my no money :-)
22:48:07 <wob_jonas> Is the first lowercase "o" the final form?
22:49:18 <wob_jonas> if so, that's interesting, in Hungarian if I write proper cursive, I always use the second form for a top connection or final, and an entirely different form of "o" for the low connection
22:49:47 <wob_jonas> so not even "o" is the same in russian and latin? no, I can't believe that. it's probably just different in different styles of cursive.
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22:51:41 <wob_jonas> well, easy because your mousewriting is really good
22:52:31 <wob_jonas> I won't be able to read a word of my own handwriting at first, I think, so there's a cost for the ideal
22:53:01 <wob_jonas> I might have to do multiple tries of the same word each time and an ISO-9 transcription too so I can read it back
22:53:20 <wob_jonas> which is ugly, but a step towards the goal I'll never reach
22:53:43 <wob_jonas> since I intend to spend my practice time on cubing, not russian writing
22:55:06 <wob_jonas> "Rodiniâ" but I'm not sure in this one
22:56:25 <wob_jonas> Ok, I'll stop the video here and continue to watch the rest some other time
22:57:02 <wob_jonas> I'll probably have to rewatch it too after I watch the whole thing, to notice more stuff about the letters
22:57:52 <wob_jonas> thank you very much so far, aarseniv (and I hope you can figure out which comments are for you and which for int-e)
22:58:57 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rodinia_reconstruction.jpg
22:59:46 <wob_jonas> in case you can't read ISO-9, which is quite possible since you need that stuff to find books or get information about books in library catalogs in Hungary and many other countries where library catalogs use latin letter transcriptions for literally everything
23:00:48 <wob_jonas> it's a bit strange, because in Hungary, probably more people could read the printed cyrillic than the ISO-9 transcription, but perhaps it's a tradition from when they don't have russian typewriters for library catalog slips
23:01:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: not sure whether this is directed at me, but the ISO-9 is really confusing to me
23:01:24 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, that's directed at aarseniv mostly
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23:02:59 <wob_jonas> so, aarseniv (but int-e too if you care), if you can't read ISO-9, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9 has a full table comprising the cyrillic letters in most languages that use them, and
23:04:35 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian#Transliteration_table has a table for Russian alphabet only (plus obsolate letters in bottom rows), look at the column with heading "ISO9:1995; GOST 2002(A)"
23:04:47 <wob_jonas> you want this second one for the Russian I type
23:05:45 <wob_jonas> note that if "Я" is transliterated anything but "Â" then you're looking at the wrong column. That one is very important for the library catalogs, and appears in my transcripts too obviously
23:07:11 <wob_jonas> It is good that libraries use this sane system, because the ones that use "Ja" for that and "j" and "a" for other letters are a bit annoying to say the least, and so are the ones that use "ya" and "y" and "a" respectively
23:08:20 <wob_jonas> Except obviously there have to be standards for printing these passports that always have your name in ascii letters, but that's not what a library catalog transcription aims for
23:12:40 <wob_jonas> Stupid anecdote: there are also cyrillization systems, to transcribe latin to a local alphabet. When I was in Macedonia, back before they were full EU members so they had a bit stricter rules for visitors, I changed cash from I don't know what currency to the local currency.
23:14:27 <wob_jonas> The cash converting agent was required to give me a printed receipt that includes my name as it appears in the passport. My name has a Hungarian "zs", which he transcribed to macedonian as "ЗС", which was probably by the transcription rules he used, but looked riddiculous to me.
23:14:48 <wob_jonas> It obviously doesn't matter what he writes to the receipt, which is why I said it was a stupid anecdote.
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23:15:31 <wob_jonas> ISO-9 is Russian-centric, so Russian transcribed with it actually looks relatively good, but most other languages transcribed with ISO-9 look horrible.
23:16:25 <wob_jonas> Luckily in library book catalogs in *Hungary*, it is much more common to find Russian names or titles than names or titles from other languages, because of the effects of the Soviet Union suppressing a lot of local languages,
23:17:57 <wob_jonas> Very rarely you can find books in Ukranian or Croatian or Belarussian, with title presumably in those languages, but I don't look at the title much so it doesn't matter. I have yet to see a Macedonian one.
23:18:46 <wob_jonas> I think I've also seen ones marked as Serbo-Croatian.
23:19:16 <wob_jonas> I think Serbian is usually not transcribed by ISO-9, but by serbian latin, which happen to coincide in all except one letter the serbian "j"
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23:19:44 <wob_jonas> um no, they don't coincide of course
23:19:55 <wob_jonas> but they never clash other than at the serbian "j"
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23:20:43 <wob_jonas> but the clash is only a theoretical problem, and not being able to automatically decide which words are transcriptions from what language is a much more serious theoretical problem
23:21:27 <wob_jonas> (or, technically, from which group of languages using the same transcription system, including identity for all latin letter languages as the transcription system)
23:22:14 <wob_jonas> And if Chinese or Japanese transcription is involved, you're in even more trouble
23:22:32 <wob_jonas> You can't even automatically untranscribe that, although there are pretty good approximation algorithms now
23:24:23 <wob_jonas> Apart from transcribing between different countries of kanji, I have heard of only two transcription systems that promise to transcribe most Japanese texts to a limited alphabet,
23:25:34 <wob_jonas> and both are systems for extended Japanese braille methods for transcribing kanji, and one I've only seen as vague descriptions, for the other I've seen somewhat extended descriptions (I never sought a full list) and it seems nicely done except that it's REALLY fucking crowded with practically zero redundancy
23:26:36 <wob_jonas> It translates to backwards 8-point braille, where the two extra dots are *above* the normal six dots, which I don't think is used anywhere other than this one system, and doesn't even have a Unicode encoding.
23:27:19 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braille_kanji by the way
23:27:53 <wob_jonas> Uses the extra upper two dots only to mark kanji, with the upper left set at the first cell that encodes a kanji and the upper right set for the last cell.
23:28:48 <wob_jonas> Each kanji has at most one encoding (luckily) which can be one cell, two cells, three cells, I don't know the upper limit, tries to be somewhat mnemonic, but the one and two cell spaces are REALLY crowded, giving no redundancy in kanji
23:31:46 <wob_jonas> and normal braille kanji is already so crowded that literally all 64 possible six-point cells are used to mean something, and even this way it needs extra cells to mark dakuten and switches to and from katakana and to arabic digits and to romaji
23:32:08 <wob_jonas> and there's some even more horrible hacks that I think I erased from my memory
23:32:47 <wob_jonas> yet this system, if it actually lives up to its promises, would be a very good base for a faithful transcription system of Japanese to latin script (with punctuations)
23:33:06 <wob_jonas> but as far as I know, there is no such transcription system
23:33:53 <wob_jonas> it could also be used as base for a transcription system from Japanese to a funny script that's made of kana-only plus overbars for indicating kana that stand for kanji, plus some punctuation
23:34:55 <wob_jonas> the kana part and simple japanese punctuation would be identity-transformed, and the kanji transcription could be typed on a keyboard or transmitted through morse code or signal flags or teletype or
23:36:00 <wob_jonas> with an automatic transcription, make it easier for European people to read digital Japanese texts with kanji or handwrite them without having to learn the calligraphy, although that one is probably so taboo that nobody would attempt to popularize it
23:36:07 <wob_jonas> well, not in this century at least
23:37:15 <wob_jonas> I mean, transcribing kanji for the blind is a noble goal, but for all the rest they would never use such a system now
23:37:38 <wob_jonas> perhaps in a steampunk level technology fantasy world they would have developped such a system
23:38:36 <wob_jonas> because no teletypes could handle kanji directly, but the teletype operator can look up kanji in a table (that he eventually learns by heart since it's mnemonic) and transmit text with kanji faithfully, which is better than writing all telex messages with kana only
23:39:00 <wob_jonas> oh well, I said good night like a long time ago
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00:07:13 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57270 * A * (+81) Created page with "''Register Automaton'' is a simple esolang which only has 1 instruction: @x=y?Lx"
00:12:16 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57271&oldid=57270 * A * (+387)
00:12:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57272&oldid=57246 * A * (+25)
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00:30:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 080000Z 24007KT 15SM FEW040 FEW075 BKN250 26/20 A2986 RMK CF1AC1CI5 CF TR AC TR SLP113 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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03:51:00 <Sgeo> "If you never use a UNIX system, why should you care? The answer is because ActiveX is intended to be cross-platform, which means that someone running a Web browser under the Sun Solaris system (a UNIX variant) might be browsing pages you have designed.
03:53:44 <Sgeo> "If you want to use ActiveX extensively (and who wouldn't?), you need to use an ActiveX-enabled browser, and you need to know that your users will have ActiveX-enabled browsers. At the moment, your chioces are either Microsft Internet Explorer 3.x (Explorer 2.x has limited support for more advanced ActiveX components) or Netscape Navigator plus the ActiveX plug-in from NCompass Labs. Power Mac users need a similar plug-in which is available
03:53:45 <Sgeo> from the the beta of the ActiveX SDK."
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04:17:23 <shachaf> Sgeo: But what about the rest of the week?
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04:49:58 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> [...] in which language Wiktionary? you can check in both the french, the english, and the native one. maybe one of them has the accents or pronunciation. <-- i'm complaining about the english. i do check the native ones when that isn't good enough. i'm not usually on the french, since i'm not fluent in it.
04:51:00 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, how about the Lithuanian entries? <-- i'm not sure if i've ever looked up a lithuanian word.
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05:05:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57273&oldid=23179 * A * (+143)
05:05:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57274&oldid=57273 * A * (+1)
05:27:59 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57275&oldid=57271 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational Class */ no it's not
05:37:16 <oerjan> `addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
05:37:17 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
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05:49:30 <oerjan> <int-e> Dear Carl [...] <-- i was momentarily confused at seeing this just after the phineas and ferb mention...
05:52:25 <Hooloovo0> you read the whole thing? impressive
05:53:13 <oerjan> i'm only halfway through the logs AAAAAAAAA
05:53:39 <oerjan> it's not MtG discussion so my instinct to skip it doesn't trigger enough
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05:58:45 <shachaf> oerjan skips MtG discussions?!
05:58:58 <shachaf> but that's what this channel is all about
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06:49:59 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57276&oldid=57267 * DMC * (-4) /* Grawlix */
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09:51:29 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
09:51:55 <shachaf> `swrjan s/loud hero/evil grinch/
09:51:57 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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09:52:29 <shachaf> now we can ask: what is grinch mean time?
09:52:53 <Taneb> shachaf: grinch mean time is any time when the grinch is mean, i.e. all the time, especially around Christmas
09:54:11 <shachaf> what about after the grinch's heart grows
09:55:17 <shachaf> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140108170556.htm
09:55:38 <shachaf> perhaps the grinch was mean because of an improper heart transplant?
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12:46:25 <esowiki> [[Noida]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57277&oldid=57265 * Saka * (+15)
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12:51:19 <arseniiv> I’ve accidentally permanently deleted all notes from phone’s unsynced Google Keep :′(
12:54:59 <int-e> . o O ( It's an opportunity: lots of room for personal growth. )
13:08:33 <esowiki> [[OFC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57278 * A * (+320) Created page with "''One Function Code'' is a one-instruction turing-tarpit. Its only command is: [x]=content of register x if(r,a,b) If[#r]==0,goto line a.Else,flip[#r] and goto line b. ==Co..."
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13:29:35 <arseniiv> I want to hope I’ll remember all worthy things that were there when it will be needed
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13:29:43 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "i'm complaining about the english [wiktionary]. i do check the native ones when that isn't good enough. i'm not usually on the french, since i'm not fluent in it." => yes, but your problem was the find the stress accenting for eg. russian or italian words. you don't need to read the meanings. french wiktionary is worth a check because it
13:30:32 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
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13:31:29 <HackEso> 600) <twice11> Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. <twice11> You measure a third point if you need an error estimate.
13:31:39 <HackEso> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
13:31:43 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: hackeso scripts to query or add or delete quotes, inherited from hackeso. backed in a simple text file
13:31:55 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 20) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! \ 30) <lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary \ 34) <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? \ 40) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about eh
13:32:03 <wob_jonas> just `quote gives you a random quote
13:32:18 <arseniiv> ah so they are added manually after all
13:32:20 <wob_jonas> otherwise it gives a random searching the term you give as argument to `quote
13:32:36 <wob_jonas> they are also transferred to that wisdom PDF file I think, occasionally
13:32:43 <HackEso> PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
13:33:19 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: oerjan today. you can see from channel log or the mercurial log of the quote file in hackeso
13:33:54 <HackEso> 788) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
13:33:56 <HackEso> 434) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. \ 747) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse.
13:33:58 <HackEso> 448) <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with Cardassians, they're all really nice and then they hit you with a rock.
13:34:06 <wob_jonas> the double quote gives you two quotes
13:34:12 <int-e> . o O ( A "portable" device is one that weighs 50kg or less, and fits into a suitcase. )
13:34:28 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, portable computers were originally like that.
13:35:04 <arseniiv> the double quote gives you two quotes => surprisingly logical
13:35:46 <wob_jonas> int-e: except for dictionaries, where a dictionary under a kilogram is a portable one, a dictionary that fits in your pocket is a pocket one, a dictionary that weighs between a kilogram and five and has at most two volumes is a home dictionary, and a multi-volume one is a comprehensive dictionary
13:36:10 <wob_jonas> there are dictionaries which exist in pocket, portable, and home editions, the smaller ones containing a selection of words from the larger ones
13:36:40 <wob_jonas> there are very few comprehensive dictionaries per language, including the OED and the "A magyar nyelv értelmező szótára"
13:37:32 <wob_jonas> I was just writing about this in comments at http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2005-08.html%23d.2005-08-07.1066
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13:44:46 <arseniiv> in the video, it looks strange. and this is a video demonstrating a consistent form of handwriting, so if it were strange, ar' would have edited it out => yes, I had actually cut many fragments out, but I haven’t thought of doing a double take for this one for some reason
13:46:23 <arseniiv> that I had meant yesterday as “messy” — I wasn’t perfectionist enough
13:47:24 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: sorry for using the ISO-9 transcription by the way, I don't have an easy way to type the russian characters, but I can type these easily => np, it’s readable
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13:49:51 <arseniiv> I wasn’t perfectionist enough => sorry for that :)
13:54:07 <HackEso> <oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter
13:54:08 <fizzie> (Unfortunately it won't work for any quote that got added before the most recent mass-`revert.)
13:54:34 <HackEso> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
13:57:46 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: "Ëtunžejt" => actually I meant Ётунхейм Jötunheimr
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13:59:26 <arseniiv> or very nice video editing to hide the jumps => there’s actually only a few cuts overall where I had written something horribly wrong
13:59:41 <Taneb> arseniiv: what are you making?
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13:59:59 <arseniiv> but if my hand wasn’t sticking to the desk, the writing would be even better
14:01:03 <arseniiv> Taneb: I had made a screencast on Russian cursive as it is taught to children in my time and (for all I see) now
14:01:42 <arseniiv> ( https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c )
14:02:12 <Taneb> Right! Not something I'm particularly interested in myself, I'm afraid, but good for you for making it!
14:02:29 <Taneb> I might check it out when I get home this evening
14:03:40 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: "Labraziâ" => в should be here (Лавразия, Laurasia)
14:04:32 <arseniiv> Also, that's a scary example name to me. => why Mercury is scary?
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14:05:47 <arseniiv> Is the first lowercase "o" the final form? => AFAIR yes, the final form is a truncated low-connection form
14:07:53 <arseniiv> your mousewriting is really good => I wish it would be better, but it’s probably a work for a tablet
14:08:54 <arseniiv> "Rodiniâ" but I'm not sure in this one => this is correct, the second and the last former continent here
14:09:49 <arseniiv> "Salnce" I think. => with о instead of а it will be right (Солнце, Sun)
14:10:29 <arseniiv> and I hope you can figure out which comments are for you and which for int-e => yes, it’s pretty easy
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14:12:57 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: also thank you for ISO-9 link. I was trying to read it intuitively and I hope in a right fashion
14:15:21 <wob_jonas> Mercury => well, it sounds like the planet and the roman god, which wouldn't be scary in itself,
14:16:06 <wob_jonas> but back in the communist regime, the same word "Merkúr" was also the name of the single institution in Hungary that was selling new cars to people, and people often had to wait years on a queue to get a new car because there weren't enough of them, even if they had the money to pay the price of the car
14:16:38 <wob_jonas> they sold Trabants, Ladas, Polskis, Dacias, and others
14:17:31 <wob_jonas> and some people just wouldn't ever get a car, for no fault of their own
14:18:11 <wob_jonas> and everyone had to be satisfied with the one car that became assigned for them, or else reject it and wait another probably infinite time
14:18:20 <Taneb> It's also a pretty dangerous metal
14:19:00 <wob_jonas> Taneb: nah, they only call that in English
14:19:39 <wob_jonas> and it wasn't yet dangerous until like fifteen years ago, when they started to ban all mercury thermometers and lead soldering
14:20:16 <wob_jonas> mind you, there are pretty good medical reasons for banning these
14:20:43 <wob_jonas> but there are still no body thermometers better than the treasured old mercury ones that you can no longer buy in Hungary
14:21:20 <Taneb> (English and most other western european languages)
14:21:43 <wob_jonas> so hospitals and private individuals treasure the remaining pieces alike, or perhaps try to get one from Ukraine
14:22:26 <wob_jonas> you can still hand them in to pharmacies for free for safe waste destruction, but you pretty much only want to do that if it no longer works or it broke
14:22:46 <wob_jonas> they're all made of glass so they break easily if you drop them, and cause a dangerous mercury leak
14:23:07 <wob_jonas> and you usually drop them when you're measuring your or your child's temperature, and the mercury can spill on the person
14:23:07 <arseniiv> about Mercury: yeah, it’s probably an alchemy influence
14:23:17 <Taneb> arseniiv: yeah, just looked it up
14:23:27 <Taneb> Only metal whose alchemical name became the common name
14:23:29 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, definitely, the seven classical metals are assoc'd with the seven classical planets
14:23:53 <wob_jonas> gold = sun, silver = moon, iron = mars, mercury = mercury,
14:23:57 <Taneb> I guess Mercury because at the time it wasn't used much outside Alcehmy
14:24:19 <Taneb> Unlike gold, silver, copper, tin, iron, lead
14:24:25 <wob_jonas> and I think lead = saturn, tin = jupiter or backwards, I always forget, and, um
14:24:47 <arseniiv> I have a mercury thermometer :) these days they are rare (or nonexistent, IDK) there too
14:25:06 <wob_jonas> zinc was discovered too late so only these seven count as the classical alchemical metals
14:25:31 <wob_jonas> some doctors also use mercury blood pressure meters
14:25:33 <Taneb> I don't have any medical thermometer
14:26:20 <Taneb> I have a sugar thermometer but I don't know what's inside it
14:26:24 <Taneb> Probably not sugar
14:26:51 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I have fever occasionally, so I need a body thermometer of some sort to be able to tell precisely how to take countermeasures like various NSAIDs, cooling shower, and go to the doctor
14:27:38 <wob_jonas> Taneb: what is the sugar thermometer's purpose? cooking?
14:28:23 <Taneb> wob_jonas: yeah, stuff like toffee and jam where you have to boil sugar at a specific temperature
14:28:34 <Taneb> (I use it to make marshmallows occasionally)
14:29:44 <wob_jonas> like a meat thermometer with those long needles to check the inside of whole cooked meat in the oven
14:30:02 <wob_jonas> I don't have any of those because I don't cook anything such difficult
14:30:17 <arseniiv> almost fried it in the process
14:30:17 <Taneb> I don't cook anything easy, which is terrible because I don't eat enough
14:30:59 <wob_jonas> Taneb: that's not a big problem if you can get acceptible food from another source
14:31:19 <wob_jonas> I also rarely cook. and even less in this summer heat.
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14:34:36 <HackEso> smlist 476: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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16:27:24 <arseniiv> does somebody read webserials in languages other than English?
16:30:18 <arseniiv> it seems unfair that webcomics are written in a variety of languages for quite a long time, and it seems webserials don’t compare in that regard
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17:13:03 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57279&oldid=57276 * DMC * (+35)
17:14:17 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57280&oldid=54957 * DMC * (+42) /* Examples */
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17:30:59 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57281&oldid=54798 * DMC * (+93) /* The Instruction set */
17:31:57 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57282&oldid=57281 * DMC * (-44) /* The Instruction set */
17:32:45 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57283&oldid=57282 * DMC * (+4) /* The Instruction set */
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19:54:14 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57284&oldid=57283 * DMC * (+55) /* The Instruction set */
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23:32:01 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAH!
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00:00:50 <boily> alercah: hellorcahellorcah.
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00:28:26 <boily> tournament! subscription! riichimontreal.org!
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01:40:59 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas french wiktionary is worth a check because it's the best maintained. <-- ah ok i was assuming the english was
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01:50:14 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
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01:56:13 <HackEso> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n'
01:56:21 <HackEso> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
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01:56:27 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
01:59:27 <oerjan> hg blame quotes | paste
01:59:31 <oerjan> `` hg blame quotes | paste
01:59:34 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.17862
02:00:54 <shachaf> Yay, paste doesn't write to hg
02:06:39 <oerjan> wait what's that paste -sd'|' thing...
02:07:21 <oerjan> `` hg blame --skip "$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)" quotes | paste
02:07:22 <HackEso> hg annotate: option --skip not recognized \ https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.1675
02:07:52 <oerjan> (also marked as experimental)
02:12:40 <oerjan> hm blaming an earlier revision won't work because lines may have been deleted.
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02:33:43 <imode> ffs, there was a language that was a cross between finite state machines and string rewriting. it was on github. I cannot find it. it was an esolang.
02:46:04 <esowiki> [[OFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57285&oldid=57278 * Ais523 * (+265) /* Computational Class */ unusable, not TC
02:46:35 <esowiki> [[OFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57286&oldid=57285 * Ais523 * (+10) clarify in the introduction that this isn't TC
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03:09:37 <imode> what would y'all consider to be the most fundamental control structure.
03:09:52 <imode> or set of control structures.
03:11:04 <Sgeo> Any ActiveX experts here?
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03:22:36 <oerjan> imode: the reverse jump with continuation pirouette hth
03:27:13 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57287&oldid=57280 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Alphabet Stew */ Fix header
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04:40:40 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas ok that doesn't go to well. e.g. i found https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Conjugaison_en_italien/parlare and the information there is clearly _wrong_ on the pronunciation of parlerò.
04:41:48 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas (i am trying to find an example with pronunciations not just of the lemma forms, but also the inflections.)
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04:52:09 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas and the saddest thing - none of the other wiktionaries even attempt to give pronunciations for parlerò or parleremo (checking the latter because it has no accent mark so you cannot deduce it)
04:53:14 * oerjan maybe should assume wob_jonas logreads?
04:54:10 <oerjan> so i still don't know whether the e in -emo is open or closed. (i assume it's most likely stressed.)
04:54:53 <oerjan> hm i could google for an accented version
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05:03:07 <oerjan> é according to a google book hit, it seems.
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09:38:44 <wob_jonas> "does somebody read webserials in languages other than English?" => yes, but only one.
09:39:54 <wob_jonas> David Madore's weblog at http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/ , who is native bilingual in French and English, and a striving polyglot, and is blogging in both English and French. The best of his entries are the mathematics ones, most of which are in French. (These days, most of his entries overall are French, it used to be more English.)
09:40:11 <wob_jonas> I reply to his French maths entries in English comments, then he replies to me in English.
09:40:41 <wob_jonas> webcomics => well, David did link to a few French webcomics, but I'm not interested.
09:41:10 <wob_jonas> I know only enough French to struggle through most of his entries slowly, and he writes in a very clear prose, and maths is easy to read anyway.
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09:42:08 <wob_jonas> He also has a few articles about amateur linguistics
09:43:13 <wob_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/lang.html for the latter, and about his experiences in learning foreign languages incl russian and arabic
09:45:30 <wob_jonas> Wait, you asked "webserials"? Then no.
09:45:40 <wob_jonas> His blog doesn't count as a "webserial" I think.
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10:14:13 <wob_jonas> oerjan: so you're saying you checked a paper dictionary, and wiktionary is definitely wrong about a common italian word? it happens, I've seen such cases on a wiki. I just found two Hungarian words that supposedly mean circus in English, but I very much doubt it, unless it's an obscure meaning of "circus".
10:15:04 <wob_jonas> oerjan: doesn't Italian have some default convention for omitting the stress accent even in dictionaries if it matches a simple default rule?
10:15:27 <wob_jonas> Of course that doesn't work for a wiki where people might just not add the stress mark, but still.
10:16:16 <wob_jonas> oerjan: French wiktionary at least gives pronunciation for almost all French words, including almost all inflections.
10:17:13 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's almost stupid to ask, but you have considered that you're just wrong about Italian and wiktionary is correct, right?
10:18:15 <wob_jonas> you could also try to ask on #wiktionary on freenode, per https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Channels .
10:20:06 <wob_jonas> and the editors of the French wiktionary are helpful if you ask. they might not start to add stress marks for all italian words all the sudden, but at least they might figure out what's the deal with them. You can ask in https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionnaire:Ambassade , Yann is pretty active and a volunteer there and is fluent in English
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12:04:10 <wob_jonas> Following up the other popular webcomic authors each publishing the book is qwantz with a book to be published later in 2018: http://www.howtoinventeverything.com/
12:05:01 <wob_jonas> previous webcomics like that include xkcd and SMBC. And that's just the ones that aren't mainly the same webcomic in print form, like Irregular's and Questionable Comic and OOTS.
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12:43:00 <Taneb> izabera: just timed my cubing and I got an average of 2:19. Lots of room to improve :)
12:43:23 <izabera> did you see the xiaomi rubik's cube?
12:43:55 <FireFly> I'm probably roughly the same speed I think
12:44:20 <FireFly> not really great either :p
12:44:20 <Taneb> I just timed 5 and took the middle 3 (I believe that's what they do in tournaments)
12:44:35 <FireFly> I could do that when I get home
12:46:05 <FireFly> the only approach I know is very slow and step-by-step, really
12:46:22 <izabera> yeah you must get rid of the steps, steps are bad
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12:50:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WhyAreWeHereJustToSuffer * New user account
12:52:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57288&oldid=57269 * WhyAreWeHereJustToSuffer * (+156) /* Introductions */
12:54:11 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57289&oldid=57230 * Ais523 * (+121) /* Relation to esoteric programming */ two more examples
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13:05:26 <wob_jonas> Taneb: usually middle 8 of 10, but people sometimes do just middle 3 of 5.
13:06:25 <wob_jonas> Also there's #rubik which taught me a bit, but mostly I just need to practice a lot and occasionally think about which parts to concentrate on and which parts to relearn to do differently (confusing at first but eventually worth).
13:07:10 <wob_jonas> #rubik is about as off-topic as this channel, the regulars talk about rust and the vim editor.
13:08:02 <wob_jonas> and they have a bot to give a random cube scramble, and they sometimes talk about cubing, so it's not off-topic all the time
13:08:11 <wob_jonas> you know that sort of thing if you're here a lot
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13:11:58 <Taneb> My next plan is to get better at planning my first moves
13:18:49 <Taneb> I really need to get my own cube
13:19:02 <Taneb> I've got one at my parents' house and I've otherwise been borrowing one of my coworker's
13:22:42 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I bought two, and I'm now using the one that I like better.
13:23:10 <wob_jonas> It's the one named TheValk, but what cube you want is sort of a matter of personal choice.
13:23:55 <wob_jonas> I should still buy a good silver mirror some day, as a secondary thing to learn better, solving it blindfolded. (I can already solve the silver mirror, obviously, but too slowly.)
13:24:16 <wob_jonas> But the primary will be the 3x3x3 cube two-handed normal solve, as is the most popular.
13:24:31 <wob_jonas> I'm also bad at it, but every little practice helps.
13:25:16 <FireFly> Taneb: just buy a cheap speedcube for a tenner or something
13:28:02 <FireFly> https://www.cuboss.se/shop/yuxin-little-magic-3x3/ I think it was this one that I got
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13:39:14 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Wait, you asked "webserials"? Then no. => :D
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14:35:01 <wob_jonas> aarseniv: I'll rewatch the parts of the video that I recognized wrong. "Ë" => yes, that's definitely a "h", not a "ž", because it doesn't have the middle part. The cursive "ž" is longer, with lots of space for the middle.
14:36:21 <izabera> Taneb: want to split the shipping costs?
14:37:07 <wob_jonas> and yes, it's also an "m" in the end at the "Ë" word, with two tent-tops and angle joint at the left bottom to separate it
14:37:13 <Taneb> izabera: ...honestly I was just planning on going to Sainsburys and buying an official, non-speed cube
14:38:02 <Taneb> Because learning the algorithms would be better for me than just having a slicker cube
14:38:11 <Taneb> Or learning better algorithms
14:38:21 <wob_jonas> Taneb: you need a speed cube, even if a cheap one.
14:38:47 <wob_jonas> don't buy the Rubik brand if that's what you mean by "official"
14:39:01 <wob_jonas> ask on #rubik if you need help choosing
14:39:10 <wob_jonas> you can order good cubes for cheap from ebay, like I did
14:39:28 <wob_jonas> cheaper than I can buy the official nice-looking ones in the local game stores
14:39:57 <HackEso> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
14:40:55 <wob_jonas> unless you're in a country where the post and customs offices open every fucking cheap ebay order from the east and makes you pay double its price as import tariff
14:41:09 <wob_jonas> like Sweden starting last year, but hopefully it won't stick
14:41:32 <wob_jonas> I don't know the situation in Norway or the UK or wherever you guys are
14:41:49 <wob_jonas> UK I think, so quick order it before Brexit
14:42:36 <FireFly> Er, specifically 75 or 125 SEK, I think, depending on value of the thing you order
14:42:38 <Taneb> Yeah, we're both in the UK
14:43:15 <wob_jonas> Yes, it's a "v" in "Lavraziâ", because it looks like a latin b
14:43:21 <FireFly> Taneb: the non-speedcube cubes are horrible though, so I don't see any reason to get that :p
14:43:42 <FireFly> like a decent speedcube would probably be both significantly smoother and cheaper
14:43:58 <Taneb> FireFly: honestly, I find the stiffness relaxing
14:44:24 <Taneb> It helps calm me down sometimes to do something that has some resistance with my hands
14:45:30 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, so get a stiffer speedcube. That's why I chose TheValk. The other one I bought turns too easily, plus its corners are so loose I have multiple times accidentally twisted a corner in place without meaning to.
14:45:31 <Taneb> Getting better at solving them is mostly a pleasant side effect
14:46:12 <wob_jonas> But I'm still very glad I bought a speedcube this year.
14:46:35 <wob_jonas> I'd have bought one earlier if I knew they were this good
14:46:40 <FireFly> There's a nice boardgames-and-stuff store in Prague, I wonder if they have speedcubes too
14:47:01 <wob_jonas> they're on ebay from east asia with often free shipping
14:47:12 <Taneb> So, what's the advantage of speedcubes?
14:47:48 <wob_jonas> they're more pleasant to work with. won't lock up when you try to turn it, which breaks your concentration a lot
14:48:08 <FireFly> They havea different construction, so that you can rotate a layer without the others being exactly completely in the right position, I think
14:48:23 <wob_jonas> go talk to #rubik, they'll explain it better
14:48:28 <FireFly> I'm not sure what the construction of a traditional cube looks like, but the speedcubes have like a sphere with spokes in the middle
14:48:49 <wob_jonas> there are various constructions, including magnetic ones (mine isn't magnetic)
14:49:04 <Taneb> FireFly: traditional is a sphere with grooves, I think
14:49:43 <wob_jonas> Buy a non-speed cube for your small child above three years who won't swallow the pieces if he takes it off with his tiny fingers, and be prepared that when he does so, his hand will get dirty.
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14:50:24 <wob_jonas> But he'll enjoy disassembling and daddy putting it back together, and if he's six year old, then he'll also enjoy assembling and turning it. maybe. every child is different.
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14:57:26 <wob_jonas> I don't think you have a small child
14:57:46 <wob_jonas> I'm just saying, a toy store cube is a worthless children's toy
15:07:51 <wob_jonas> By the way, the way how the top line of the B and P are disconnected from the vertical parts looks so unusual to me. I don't write any latin letters like that. The only thing it resembles is a greek capital Xi
15:08:21 <wob_jonas> yet without the hole, if you extended the vertical lines to reach the top, they'd look entirely normal
15:11:27 <wob_jonas> aarseniv: "Solnce" => indeed. it's a bottom-joined "o", the one I mentioned was strange to me, but with a very short join on o's side, then the required tiny angle join on the "l" for a low connection
15:12:24 <wob_jonas> Now let me watch the rest of the letters. And I hope near the end you manage to work in words with examples of the rarer letters with different connections, which will be tricky
15:13:11 <wob_jonas> "T" => standalone top is still the only really strange part
15:14:29 <wob_jonas> damn, you're getting impatient here and writing more quickly
15:14:57 <wob_jonas> also, the top is not just not touching the stiles, but also written afterwards, like an accent? I'll never do that
15:17:05 <wob_jonas> "Tenočt..." ... "Tenočtitlan" is that from one of the pre-Columbus south american civilizations?
15:18:28 <wob_jonas> Or perhaps it's normal, and the way we write capital J and Y in cursive is what's strange
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15:28:41 <wob_jonas> "Hinlopenbrin" I think? it's a bit squashed on the right ... and then you cross out "lop" and write "lop" again
15:28:50 <wob_jonas> yeah, at this point you were getting tired
15:31:20 <wob_jonas> Ok, now here it's getting ugly and harder to read. "Cicik..." "Cicikar" and the first i is squashed
15:44:53 <wob_jonas> I have to leave, dunno when I can actually watch this video
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16:22:13 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas calling me with the other vowel doubled doesn’t give me notifications(
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16:33:16 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas By the way, the way how the top line of the B and P are disconnected from the vertical parts looks so unusual to me. I don't write any latin letters like that. The only thing it resembles is a greek capital Xi => it could be connected, I think. If you want, definitely do connect. It’s a fancy, and I don’t remember getting bad grades in middle school about not following it strictly, as with many other details
16:33:56 <arseniiv> oh I fear that message has been split in half, but I haven’t yet read to the bottom
16:35:30 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas damn, you're getting impatient here and writing more quickly => oops I have been afraid it could be so
16:38:30 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas also, the top is not just not touching the stiles, but also written afterwards, like an accent? I'll never do that => I was unsure there. A friend have said me after he watched that they’ve been taught to write kratka in й (and maybe dots in ё) just after the “base” is written, not after all the “bases” in the word are written
16:39:10 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas "Tenočtitlan" is that from one of the pre-Columbus south american civilizations? => yeah
16:40:44 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas That capital "U" is strange => if you mean it needs a hook I’d agree. When I write it nearly cursively, I often add a hook, it looks pleasant
16:43:24 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas "Uran" is that another celestial? => yes, Uranus (and also uranium, but it’s of course not a place; also curiously uranium is simply уран, but neptunium and plutonium are suddenly нептуний and плутоний, with an -ий suffix homological with -ium)
16:45:07 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas "Hinlopenbrin" I think? it's a bit squashed on the right ... and then you cross out "lop" and write "lop" again => the name is read right, it’s a glacier somewhere, also I had decided the first ло is written incorrectly and showed a more correct version, п there for completeness of о form
16:50:52 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas also an addition to a previous one: <= Or perhaps it's normal, and the way we write capital J and Y in cursive is what's strange => no, actually there’s evidence Russian cursive was based on Latin one and it almost hadn’t evolve organically as Latin had
16:51:57 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas Цицикар is also right. Sorry it goes harder to the end
16:52:48 <arseniiv> also forgive me #esoteric I’ll make a test of lambdabot memory here, too
16:53:18 <arseniiv> @tell aarseniv please don’t try to impersonate me, it’s too evident
16:53:54 <arseniiv> …and I hoped they wouldn’t save a message for an unregistered nickname user
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17:47:18 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57290&oldid=57284 * DMC * (+32) /* The Instruction set */
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17:50:45 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57291&oldid=57290 * DMC * (+102) /* added Truth machine code */
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18:17:12 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57292&oldid=54870 * DMC * (+158) /* Examples */
18:17:45 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57293&oldid=57292 * DMC * (-1) /* Truth Machine */
18:19:53 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57294&oldid=57279 * DMC * (+1) /* Alphabet Stew */
18:21:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57295&oldid=57294 * DMC * (+46) /* Implementations */
18:24:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57296&oldid=57295 * DMC * (+4) /* Implementations */
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18:51:36 <xkapastel> anyone here familiar with the Jelly golfing language?
18:59:40 <arseniiv> someone definitely was, though I don’t remember who. Try searching the logs
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19:03:37 <arseniiv> for example => 08:22:46 <wob_jonas> I know about jelly because ais523 programs in it
19:10:52 <arseniiv> it’s November 2017 and still he’s the only one telling useful things about it. ATMunn tried to program in Jelly and failed (in December, 17, the same year)
19:11:59 <xkapastel> mm, i'll try and ambush him when he shows up again then
19:21:07 <arseniiv> no prob; ftr I’ve decided to search all 2017 months, and there was only ais523
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20:13:54 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: the reason this russian cursive is so unintuitive to me is that the connection between the letters work completely differently. firstly, it's backwards from the simple way I model latin cursive.
20:15:25 <wob_jonas> the way I model it, most letters end near the bottom and some end near the top, and all letters can start at the top so for normal letters the connection is an upwards slanting straight line, and for letters ending up, the connection is a little smiling line dipping down whose top is on the line that separates the small size letters from the ascend
20:16:01 <wob_jonas> some letters need uglier variant forms after a letter that ends on the top, and they get squashed, because they'd rather have a connection on the bottom
20:18:14 <wob_jonas> b, o, r, v, w end on the top, a, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, p, q, s, t, u, y, z end on the bottom, and how x is supposed to be written in normal cursive is a complete
20:19:00 <wob_jonas> e gets a smaller loop after an upper connection, with the top smiley being lengthened so it smoothly forms to bottom of the loop, but a nice large loop for a lower connection.
20:20:10 <wob_jonas> f and l get a nice large loop for a bottom connection, and since it has an ascender, they still have a large enough loop for an upper connection, but look slightly stranger, especially f where the loop doesn't intersect the cross then
20:21:23 <wob_jonas> r gets hard to write for a top connection because it's supposed to start with a top frown, so normally after an upper connection you're supposed to make a tilde from the top frown and the bottom frown, but this is only in the style I learned, most people use a completely different looking alternate form
20:23:14 <wob_jonas> i, m, n, u, v, w, y start with a vertical line from top to bottom at full length of a normal length character, and the smiley or upwards slant meet at a sharp angle at the top of that line, so there's always a sharp angle connection at top for those
20:24:02 <wob_jonas> t is sort of similar, but you connect in the middle of the even longer vertical line, write the ascender of the same line up and a 180 degree turn at top, then straight down to almost the baseline
20:25:16 <wob_jonas> f, h, k, l start with a looped ascender where you connect to the intersection of the loop, smoothly continuing either the upwards slant or the smiley into the start of the right side of the loop, and then the loop ends like a normal downwards line
20:27:10 <wob_jonas> after the downwards line, in b, i, t, u, v, w the downwards line doesn't quite reach the baseline, but curve out in a bottom smiley instead; in h, k, m, n, and r the vertical line reaches the baseline vertical and makes a 180 degree turm; f and p go even further and the vertical line reaches the bottom of the descender
20:28:01 <wob_jonas> whereas in this russian alphabet you're showing me, the connection is decided backwards, it depends on the next letter, not the previous letter, and the connecting lines or angles are different too
20:29:08 <wob_jonas> oerjan: English vs French wiktionary is sort of a tie, they're different in different ways
20:30:41 <wob_jonas> I also have no idea how to write uppercase letters in cursive properly, they're weird
20:30:56 <wob_jonas> I think they do have these parts that are supposed to be written later in some styles too
20:32:02 <wob_jonas> the way I was taught, the cross of the t and the dot of the i and the acute accents and diaresis and double acute are supposed to be added after the whole word, because it breaks the connection, but I never do that. I write a full letter, it's easier even if it's uglier.
20:32:13 <wob_jonas> and there are variants on many letters
20:33:21 <wob_jonas> like, in some, f is supposed to have a pen lift after the end of the downwards line and start the cross in a new line, but the cross isn't written after the word because it's what connects smoothly to the upwards slant for the next letter.
20:33:37 <wob_jonas> the cross is also a smiley by the way, whereas the cross of the t is a straight line
20:33:41 <wob_jonas> I should try to make images or something
20:34:11 <wob_jonas> but sane people don't lift the pen for f, they connect the bottom straight to the hook because that doesn't make it more similar to any letter
20:34:29 <wob_jonas> but you have to write a proper descender, or else it would look like a b
20:34:46 <wob_jonas> I write very ugly though in practice, breaking all the rules and using my own crazy stule
20:36:37 <wob_jonas> I'll get back and actually watch the video to the end. I'll be interested in the rarer latters and if you manage to show how they connec5t
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21:20:03 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I should try to make images or something => definitely :)
21:20:29 <arseniiv> I’ve seen some Latin cursive here and there, but I lack a more systematic knowledge
21:26:44 <HackEso> smlist 477: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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02:26:18 <Sgeo_> I can't believe I dismissed Julia language just because I thought it was just for science work
02:33:00 <imode> the lambda calculus is an inefficient model for computing w.r.t physical implementations, change my view.
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02:46:59 <xkapastel> imode: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.90.2386&rep=rep1&type=pdf
02:48:15 <imode> brief summary? a skim shows this as improving beta reduction.
02:48:39 <xkapastel> it's a massively parallel lambda evaluator
02:48:59 <xkapastel> this technique can run on a gpu and make e.g. pure lambda calculus arithmetic feasible
02:49:09 <imode> great. that doesn't change the fact that lambda calculus is an inefficient model for computing w.r.t physical implementations.
02:49:26 <imode> not really, no. imagine you were to design a lambda calculus processor.
02:49:44 <imode> LC works over lambda terms, which are term trees.
02:50:01 <imode> how are LC terms not trees.
02:50:22 <xkapastel> because you make them graphs as in the paper i linked to, in order to do very fast parallel reductionm
02:50:47 <imode> that doesn't change the fact that term trees are LC's native representation.
02:50:56 <xkapastel> the difference is significant because things like e.g. variable capture, de bruijin indices, shifting all go away
02:51:03 <xkapastel> what does "native representation" mean?
02:51:28 <xkapastel> the native representation of `\x. x+1` is a list of characters that you can parse in to whatever
02:51:38 <xkapastel> just because you like parsing it in to a tree doesn't mean it is a tree
02:51:41 <imode> it means that you don't use a graph, you use term trees. nested LC terms.
02:51:52 <xkapastel> in fact, the trouble with manipulating lambda terms points to the fact that they are not trees
02:51:52 <imode> regardless, show me some graph structured memory.
02:52:22 <xkapastel> look at the problems that de bruijin indices were made to solve, and the things you have to do wit shifting and unshifting in order to avoid variable capture
02:52:30 <imode> when I say "physical implementation" I mean the entire processor needs to do one thing and one thing only: reduce lambda expressions.
02:52:34 <xkapastel> with a graph representation, a lambda binder connects directly to the usage sites of the variable
02:52:52 <xkapastel> imode: the big picture here is that lambda reduction looks very different from your current mental model
02:52:55 <imode> in order to do that, one needs some kind of tree or graph-structured memory for evaluation.
02:53:11 <xkapastel> no, you can do it on a cellular automata-like processor
02:54:23 <imode> the thing that I find attractive about TMs is that their state is almost entirely linear, sans the state tables.
02:54:51 <imode> which can be represented as 2D tables. with LC I find that you need tree or graph structured memory, regardless of whether you're doing naive or optimized reductions.
02:55:12 <xkapastel> the paper i linked to discusses a formalism called interaction nets
02:55:29 <imode> right, which requires, first and foremost, graph structured memory to reduce arbitrary lambda expressions.
02:55:36 <xkapastel> it's a graph rewriting model of computation where rewrites are purely local, and so a large graph can be processed in parallel since portions of the graph are owned independently
02:56:12 <xkapastel> portions of the array are rewritten in parallel, like a pixel shader
02:56:37 <imode> so you've now just reduced it to a random access machine with a particular program.
02:56:55 <xkapastel> imagine a big array divided in to say, 5 chunks
02:57:01 <xkapastel> it's not random access, causality stays inside each chunk
02:57:51 <imode> so your process is... convert a lambda expression into an interaction net, reduce said interaction net with this giant parallel local rewriting thing.
02:57:54 <xkapastel> information propagates across the graph in a wave like a game of life glider for example
02:58:29 <imode> seems like an awful long way to go just for LC.
02:58:52 <xkapastel> https://github.com/MaiaVictor/parallel_lambda_computer_tests has a small prototype of this scheme
02:59:07 <xkapastel> not mine, but he's also working on something similar
02:59:29 <imode> lol I was gonna say.
03:00:03 <imode> so, what exactly goes into the process of translating LC into interaction nets, per se.
03:00:33 <imode> because I guess my point is you're not really reducing LC expressions, you're reducing some compiled form of LC expressions.
03:00:49 <imode> whereas I can actually go out and build an LBA.
03:01:10 <imode> and build the state tables and so on and so forth. without any compilation steps. if I really had the mindfulness to.
03:01:39 <imode> at what point does building an optimizing evaluator turn the thing you're evaluating into an entirely different model of computation.
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03:02:49 <xkapastel> i guess you can say interaction nets are the real model of computation here
03:03:16 <xkapastel> but if lambda calculus has a thin translation to it, like C does to x86, does it matter?
03:03:44 <imode> well yeah, it does, because this is a model of computation we're talking about. x86 is pretty far away from a TM.
03:04:11 <xkapastel> C isn't a TM, it's another machine model
03:04:29 <imode> if I had built something like Laconic and called it a model of computation, but really it needs to be compiled down to a TM in order to actually carry out the computation, the model of computation isn't Laconic, it's the TM.
03:04:43 <xkapastel> the point is you can give a straightforward cost semantics for lambda calculus and realize it on a physical machine
03:04:44 <imode> no, I was making a mismatch between x86 and a TM.
03:05:17 <xkapastel> well, models of computation are often abstract
03:05:19 <imode> right, but that's not.. my point. you're not really evaluating the lambda calculus. you're evaluating instances of interaction nets.
03:05:39 <imode> so the claim "LC is an efficient model of computation w.r.t physical implementation" is pretty bogus.
03:05:45 <xkapastel> if we're going to use the word model here, it doesn't matter what it really runs on, what matters is whether you're able to give a cost semantics for expressions
03:06:16 <imode> I'd argue the opposite, as actually implementing models does help.
03:06:45 <imode> it's kind of why I hate the name "lisp machine", too.
03:06:59 <imode> like, it's not really a lisp machine. it's a random access machine with a lisp interface.
03:07:17 <imode> have you found the JS snippet yet? really curious because that CUDA looked interesting.
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03:09:09 <imode> wish it was a little more well commented but I doubt this is for documentation purposes.
03:09:26 <xkapastel> you can check the github issues thread linked for a back and forth discussing it
03:09:56 <imode> oh boy it links to chorasimilarity.
03:10:08 <xkapastel> once you get the idea you don't really need the js, and anyway he does it naively so you'd need to change it to realize the parallelism
03:10:54 <xkapastel> one thing to keep in mind is that this is using the good version of cellular automata, not the kind that's popular
03:11:22 <xkapastel> the usual cellular automata are too hard to build anything with because the rules are like [A B C] -> B
03:11:37 <xkapastel> the kind used here is a block cellular automata where rules are like [A B C] -> [A B C]
03:11:47 <imode> so what're the rules for reducing interaction nets, and how do LC expressions compile to them?
03:12:05 <imode> still looking through this, but picking the concept apart from a github issue is...
03:12:11 <imode> not really all that fun.
03:12:42 <xkapastel> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e24d/ad59709fef715e512a9caebd781d0b029075.pdf the first few sections of this are good to explain it
03:13:01 <xkapastel> i can do it in the chat but it's a bit involved and i can't draw diagrams
03:13:31 <imode> sigh. why not just a concise explanation.
03:13:35 <xkapastel> imagine a node in a graph as a big ball with little pegs on it
03:13:56 <xkapastel> when two nodes touch on this port they interact
03:14:13 <xkapastel> this keeps all interaction local, meaning you can divide up memory among independent processors
03:14:19 <imode> okay, define interact.
03:14:25 <xkapastel> you know that node can't be interacting with anyone else at the same time
03:14:31 <xkapastel> so, two nodes are touching on their "principal" port
03:14:36 <xkapastel> they have other ports, say two others
03:14:42 <xkapastel> those ports are also connected to nodes
03:14:46 <imode> do these ports represent bound variables.
03:14:59 <xkapastel> during an "interaction", you can take ownership of all of those ports and rewire them as you please
03:15:21 <xkapastel> and you can make new nodes with new connections, as long as the total "interface" of connections remains the same
03:15:52 <imode> okay.. can you show me some computations? maybe something as simple as adding two numbers?
03:16:07 <xkapastel> one way to do it is to have a node representing a lambda, with a principal port for interaction, another port that connects to each usage of the variable, and another port connecting to the lambda's body
03:16:25 <xkapastel> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.112.2822&rep=rep1&type=pdf
03:16:39 <xkapastel> that does cons-lists, basic arithmetic etc
03:17:12 <imode> I see. so are nodes typed?
03:17:29 <xkapastel> it's like lambda calculus, you can develop typed and untyped formalisms
03:17:31 <imode> they "kind of are" by their shape, it looks.
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03:17:51 <imode> okay, I'll take a look at this and get back to you.
03:18:12 <imode> seems like an interesting formalism, I'd like to pick your brain about how you'd do it in a flat memory space.
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03:44:59 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: so you're saying you checked a paper dictionary, and wiktionary is definitely wrong about a common italian word? <-- technically i knew parlerò was wrong from wikipedia's phonology article (ò is always open), but the scanned paper one in google books had other examples like parlerèbbe (where the accent is _not_ usually written, and means it's open so wiktionary gets that too wrong)
03:46:09 <oerjan> although parlerebbe is a bit fishy, there are more google hits for parlerébbe...
03:46:34 <oerjan> (only a handful of each though.)
03:46:53 <oerjan> (although it might include OCR errors, seeing as there are google books hits.)
03:48:06 <oerjan> this book btw https://books.google.no/books?id=Oox0b3OPJIwC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=parler%C3%A9mo&source=bl&ots=RQmfWUInLy&sig=zTvv_OpILl6_vCc5z3DqEEAYo6w&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs5Y7Ex-HcAhXR0aYKHcLvA8IQ6AEwBnoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=parler%C3%A9mo&f=true
03:48:52 <oerjan> (i searched for parlerémo first, which wiktionary actually gets right)
03:50:09 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: doesn't Italian have some default convention for omitting the stress accent even in dictionaries if it matches a simple default rule? <-- plausible, it would probably be when it's the second last syllable and not e or o.
03:50:49 <oerjan> however, i think that would be a bad idea for wiktionary because then you wouldn't know if the editor has forgotten to add the info or not
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04:03:24 <imode> xkapastel: okay. starting to see the applications of this. now how exactly would I implement these rewriting rules. would I just have an array of nodes with a set of ports linked to other nodes?
04:05:22 <xkapastel> a node has a tag and let's say 3 ports max
04:05:39 <xkapastel> for each port, you need to know what node it's connected to, and also what port on that node
04:06:02 <xkapastel> if two nodes are connected on their principal ports (let's say port 0), they interact
04:06:16 <xkapastel> now, the trick about doing this in parallel
04:06:31 <xkapastel> is to make nodes only interact with adjacent nodes in this array
04:06:45 <imode> okay.. so that involves some shuffling, I assume.
04:06:50 <xkapastel> if you're familiar with like, a convolution, or an IR filter, you can scan down the array in blocks in parallel
04:07:05 <xkapastel> so you'd tile up the whole array evenly in to independent chunks
04:07:23 <xkapastel> if two nodes are adjacent and connected by principal ports, you do the rewrite rule given by their tags
04:07:34 <xkapastel> like you saw wit e.g. append and cons
04:07:48 <imode> right. but, okay, let's step back and not assume I want parallel evaluation.
04:07:50 <xkapastel> if they're not connected, then they need to move around and find the thing they are connected to
04:08:16 <xkapastel> well, you can just have a big array of nodes
04:08:17 <imode> so I have an array of nodes. each node has a finite number of ports at max.
04:08:32 <xkapastel> struct Node { tag int, fstId int, fstPort int, sndId int, sndPort int, auxId int, auxPort int }
04:08:41 <imode> let's say I have a rule that if two X tagged nodes are connecd to eachother, they get erased.
04:08:57 <xkapastel> so what happens is, you have an array of pairs of node IDs
04:09:09 <xkapastel> which represent the nodes you have found that are connected by their principal ports
04:09:18 <xkapastel> you have an API that connects two nodes
04:09:26 <xkapastel> like connect(fstId, fstPort, sndId, sndPort)
04:09:33 <xkapastel> if fstPort == 0 and sndPort == 0, then they go in that array
04:09:59 <xkapastel> at each "tick", you have however many pairs in that array
04:10:13 <xkapastel> the size of that array is the "available parallelism" which is an interesting metric that lets you measure cost
04:10:26 <xkapastel> anyway you go through the array and do the rule for each pair
04:10:28 <imode> right, "here's how many things are going to interact at this step."
04:10:34 <xkapastel> and the rule will involve more calls to `connect()`
04:10:41 <xkapastel> which will probably put more things in the array
04:11:34 <imode> so, let's say I have the cons/append example.
04:11:46 <imode> all I'd have to say is "take these two nodes, they're connected by their principal ports."
04:12:22 <xkapastel> append's first port is the principal, second is i guess v, then w
04:12:33 <xkapastel> cons have a principal, and x and u
04:12:39 <imode> "rewrite it such that append's port 1 (the top port) is now linked to cons's port 2."
04:12:47 <xkapastel> so when they connect by principal, you own all of those places in the array
04:12:47 <imode> so on and so on for all ports in that rule.
04:13:05 <xkapastel> "you", i mean the independent process responsible for rewriting that pair
04:13:26 <imode> I'm trying to focus on how you'd just step by step rewrite this. what your lhs and rhs of a given rule looks like in memory.
04:13:58 <xkapastel> cons' u port is a member of that node struct
04:14:04 <xkapastel> the id it's connect to is append's id
04:14:14 <xkapastel> the port it's connected to is the number of append's w port
04:14:22 <imode> so, adding and removing nodes.
04:14:44 <xkapastel> the really simple way is to just have a free list of IDs
04:15:35 <xkapastel> and you'd have some kind of node like "drop" or "erase" in that pdf, where part of the rule is returning the id of the node you interact with to the free list
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04:22:28 <imode> xkapastel: back. so, adding and removing nodes. if I said you could only specify a rule using structure initialization syntax in C, what would you give me for cons/append's rule.
04:23:37 <xkapastel> well the rules are mutating integers in an array
04:24:07 <xkapastel> it's just a bunch of stuff like `graph.node[fst].ports[2][1] = graph.node[snd].ports[0][2]` or whatever
04:24:11 <imode> right. but you need to store your lhs and rhs in some kind of format.
04:24:23 <imode> so what would that look like.
04:24:26 <xkapastel> imagine 5 assignments like that one stacked on top of each other
04:24:42 <esowiki> [[Hash function]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57297 * A * (+237) I can't explain that...
04:24:46 <xkapastel> you could have a 2d matrix where row and columns are node tags
04:24:56 <xkapastel> and the element inside the matrix is a function pointer implementing the rewrite rule
04:25:03 <esowiki> [[Hash function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57298&oldid=57297 * A * (+132)
04:25:06 <xkapastel> and the body is a bunch of assignments like the one i just wrote
04:25:17 <esowiki> [[Hash function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57299&oldid=57298 * A * (-132)
04:25:47 <imode> okay, new plan. how would your rewrite rules look textually.
04:26:00 <xkapastel> was that description not clear? :S
04:26:38 <xkapastel> the matrix lets you map a pair of ints to a function pointer, the body is just assignments that shuffle around the node ports like the one i wrote
04:26:39 <imode> no, it really wasn't. your rules are your code that manipulates this graph structure, yeah? so you need a rule format to load into your interpreter, so you can use those rules to rewrite the interaction net.
04:26:50 <xkapastel> no you don't need to load any rules
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04:27:08 <xkapastel> why would you "load" anything in to it?
04:27:22 <imode> ...how else would I write what it means to append something to a list.
04:27:23 <xkapastel> does python "load" the python bytecode format, as if it could run anything else?
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04:27:43 <imode> what is the in-memory representation of that append rule? can you give me a straight answer?
04:27:52 <imode> you wrote some C code.
04:28:05 <xkapastel> a bunch of those, shuffling the correct ports from the diagram
04:28:54 <imode> so the premise that I'm getting from that document I linked is that I can write rules, lhs and rhs, to rewrite portions of an interaction net. you follow?
04:29:01 <imode> s/I linked/you linked
04:29:21 <imode> no, just follow me here.
04:29:35 <imode> I can write rules like that, yeah? they aren't hard-coded.
04:29:52 <xkapastel> does python load rules for other languages very often
04:29:56 <imode> this isn't python.
04:30:07 <xkapastel> think about what you're trying to do
04:30:15 <xkapastel> you want to write some kind of meta-interpreter for ANY set of rules
04:30:16 <imode> lmao, so you just hard code the rules you want.
04:30:26 <imode> uh, because interaction nets are supposed to be general.
04:30:27 <xkapastel> you make the rules that correspond to your language
04:30:34 <xkapastel> it's like writing a bytecode interpreter for one lang
04:30:45 <xkapastel> would you ever want to make a "general" bytecode vm framework
04:30:49 <imode> okay, have fun with your interaction nets.
04:31:04 <imode> see it's not hard to write a rule-based interpreter.
04:31:15 <imode> you load some rules, those rules mutate state.
04:31:37 <imode> you hard-code your rules. I'm asking you to show me what it might look like if you didn't.
04:31:58 <xkapastel> you could use a dynamic language and just load more code whenever
04:32:31 <xkapastel> that's going to lead to a lot of nasty code for parsing some sad little rule format
04:32:32 <imode> how is that the hard way when the document you linked pretty much goes over writing rules for rewriting interaction nets.
04:32:45 <xkapastel> because you write the rules, in whatever implementation lang you've chosen
04:33:09 <xkapastel> okay, imagine the paper wasn't about interaction nets
04:33:20 <xkapastel> ONE of the examples would be this weird thing called "the lambda calculus"
04:33:25 <imode> do I hard-code state tables for TMs when writing a TM interpreter? no, because that'd be fucking dumb.
04:33:27 <xkapastel> the lambda calculus is one particular term rewriting system
04:33:34 <imode> I load state tables from a file so I can simulate any arbitrary TM.
04:33:46 <imode> if nobody's done that for interaction nets then I'd ask why.
04:33:50 <xkapastel> you can also just write other state tables in your lang and use things like high order functions to swap them out
04:34:15 <xkapastel> the thing i was describing was not going in that direction at all, is where the confusion came from i guess
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04:34:35 <imode> right, I see where you were headed, but if I was just going to hard-code rules I might as well go write a lisp interpreter.
04:34:58 <imode> I'd like to see what the more general form would look like, where you could specify "here's what appending looks like."
04:35:09 <imode> instead of "here's this nice little language that rides on top of interaction nets but really doesn't need to."
04:35:59 <xkapastel> a notation for writing general rewrite rules
04:36:04 <xkapastel> > We write the rule for an active pair between nodes alpha and beta as alpha(x_1, ..., x_n) >< beta(y_1, ..., y_m) => [N],
04:36:06 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:84: error: parse error on input ‘,’
04:36:23 <xkapastel> you have a file with a bunch of expressions like that and then load it
04:36:45 <xkapastel> they do natural numbers and lists later in that readme
04:37:06 <imode> see that's what I was kind of looking for. you'd need variable matching and binding to actually do that.
04:37:23 <xkapastel> it all compiles down to what i was talking about earlier though
04:37:34 <xkapastel> you would have a universal interaction net that runs this stuff
04:37:40 <imode> right, but it still uses things like variables to link up arbitrary ports.
04:38:11 <xkapastel> you can have an interaction net as a compilation target for those rule expressions
04:38:34 <oerjan> <xkapastel> anyone here familiar with the Jelly golfing language? <-- i've not learned it, but there's a jelly channel on stackexchange chat
04:38:58 <imode> how exactly do you construct append's rule, then. just explicitly refer to certain ports?
04:39:04 <xkapastel> someone mentioned the "jelly chat" on their github issues but i didn't know where it was
04:39:27 <xkapastel> imode: let's say we have a minimal interaction net called the "inteaction combinators"
04:39:40 <xkapastel> we're gonna...gasp...hardcode those rules
04:39:48 <xkapastel> then read those expressions and compile them to it
04:40:39 <xkapastel> as a fan of turing machines, you know you can have one that simulates any other
04:40:56 <imode> (not a fan of TMs per se.. maybe string rewriting systems.)
04:41:18 <imode> mainly due to movement of large regions of symbols.
04:46:29 <oerjan> https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/32533/jelly although you need some SE rep to get on there
04:47:16 <oerjan> and it's not extremely active
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04:58:30 <u0_a101> "just answer some questions and you'll have enough rep in no time!"
05:25:00 <oerjan> it may have to be PPCG rep specifically, i'm not sure
05:28:29 <u0_a101> opps, i meant "just answer some questions on our low traffic site, where nobody votes, and you'll have enough rep eventually"
05:28:47 <u0_a101> tbf, PCG is not really low traffic
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06:50:44 <oerjan> from the faq i suspect it's not actually just PPCG rep, it's either total SE rep or the highest rep on any SE site.
06:54:29 <oerjan> basically you need two upvotes.
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07:51:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57300&oldid=57257 * Galaxtone * (+0) Fixed error in syntax for Truth Machine
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07:55:00 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57301&oldid=57300 * Galaxtone * (-1) Actually fixed syntax, Confused it for a while loop.
07:56:03 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57302&oldid=57296 * Galaxtone * (-2) /* Surtic */ Updated version with proper syntax.
08:01:26 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57303&oldid=57301 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ Ok seriously I triple-checked, This is perfect.
08:02:20 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57304&oldid=57302 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Surtic */ Triple-Checked, Definitely no syntax errors in this.
08:52:16 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57305&oldid=57303 * Galaxtone * (+18) Added a limit for sake of limitations.
08:57:18 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57306&oldid=57305 * Galaxtone * (-18) /* C */ Nevermind on the limitation
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09:14:16 <shachaf> Sgeo_: will we be getting an olist today twh
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09:36:48 <int-e> The mercurial ui is so terrible :P (seriously though, why does hg pull -u not do an update when nothing was pulled?)
09:38:14 <int-e> (This comes up fairly frequently in my usage... I hg pull -u and it refuses to update because some local file is modified ... so I fix that and then I rerun the failing command.)
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13:16:06 <HackEso> olist 1134: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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14:28:15 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57307&oldid=57021 * Wright * (-237) Deleted irrelevant example (also the sentence structure in general was just bugging me)
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16:21:41 <arseniiv> a lot of lol stuff in the recent ones there
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18:17:44 <zzo38> Is there a such thing as tsumeshogi-FEN?
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18:38:05 <rain2> yes seesm to be SFEN
19:13:19 <xkapastel> ais523: can i ask you a few questions about the jelly golfing language? specifically about the chain rules
19:13:49 <ais523> xkapastel: you can try, but I'm not that comfortable with the chain rules
19:14:04 <ais523> I normally have to reread the tutorial to try to figure it out, in complex cases
19:14:14 <xkapastel> the first chain pattern for monadic chains, `+ × 1 ... (v+ω)×1*`
19:14:29 <xkapastel> doesn't this follow from the rules for `+` and `+ 1`?
19:14:50 <xkapastel> if you didn't have it, you would chop off `+`, then chop off `x 1` and it would be the same (v+w)*1
19:15:13 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if some of the rules were redundant
19:15:54 <xkapastel> also i'm wondering why dyadic chains don't have a rule for `+ F`, is that just because dennis didn't think it was used or becuase it messes something up?
19:16:24 <xkapastel> for dyadic chains i see why that first rule would lead to a different value than applying rules for `+` and `+ 1`
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19:17:20 <ais523> xkapastel: dyad chains tend to be awkward to use, I think the original intention was to do it APL-style and use patterns with { and } to do complex things
19:17:25 <ais523> but that uses so many bytes :-(
19:18:45 <xkapastel> i do really like this design though, and i appreciate how it's explained so clearly, as opposed to APL/K which seem to pride themselves on being cryptic
19:19:18 <ais523> in general I find any working with dyad chains in Jelly is painful, and prefer to use monadic chains for basically everything
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20:09:54 <esowiki> [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57308&oldid=53838 * HereToAnnoy * (-4) Fixed spacing (I think; I really need a monospace font for this) + Ideas cat
20:44:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57309&oldid=57058 * Wright * (+625) Added entries
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23:39:51 <fungot> boily: what's good about it, but i don't really have much to do
23:41:35 <boily> fungot: nostrils are good, but you can still eat pizza.
23:41:35 <fungot> boily: and i don't have to.
23:41:43 <boily> fungot: but you can.
23:41:43 <fungot> boily: so there are no answers anywhere, i guess. bummer
23:41:59 * boily is more than frightened about fungot's sentience
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00:10:08 <fungot> arseniiv: where? i only see 5
00:10:33 <fungot> arseniiv: ok then... seems udage is turing tarpit. power and expressiveness are independent.
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00:55:33 <zzo38> How would I implement seeking for a specific ecliptic longitude of a body (or of a Arabic Part)?
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01:07:47 <zzo38> (Arabic parts have three parameters (called the "personal-point", "significator", and "trigger"). Some use rulers, lords, houses, constants, dispositors, and other Arabic parts, as their parameters. I do not intend to implement any other than the bodies that swe_calc() can calculate, as well as the Asc, MC, and constants 0 Aries and 0 Libra. Note that if the "personal-point" is held constant, you are effectively seeking an aspect.)
01:09:44 <zzo38> (Also, many use reversals, and some use stranger things such as "Lord of New or Full Moon Prior to Birth", "Cusp of House Uranus Occupies", "Use Jupiter if Saturn is combust", "Asc + Moon - (Sun + 144 + Pi)", etc. I don't know what most of these mean, and I also don't care and do not intend to implement any of these things.)
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02:08:24 <zzo38> I don't like W3C's "Secure Contexts". I read a definition it is one of the four: * An origin using an authenticated scheme (https: or wss:) * An origin on the local computer using IP addresses in 127/8 (IPv4) or ::1/128 (IPv6) * An origin on the local computer using a scheme that the browser considers authenticated (file: and possibly packaged browser extensions) * An origin that the user has "configured as a trustworthy origin", through a us
02:08:48 <zzo38> My own opinion is that only the last one should be considered as a trustworthy origin and the others should not be.
02:27:14 <esowiki> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57310&oldid=57308 * HereToAnnoy * (+1338) Langauge update (also, is there a grid table or do I have to make really long wikitables every time a program is written in this?)
02:27:42 <esowiki> [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57311&oldid=57310 * HereToAnnoy * (+13) everytime i finish something
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06:43:13 <u0_a101> any thoughts on baseline syntax needed for a relatively useful out-of-the-box language? I'm thinking var declaration/assignment, arithmetic ops, conditional evaluation, some kind of collection, functions, parens for eval order...
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06:43:43 <u0_a101> braces for block scope, function bodies, loops, conditional eval
06:45:10 <u0_a101> datatypes maybe bool, number, string, collection, function
06:46:38 <u0_a101> any of that unneccessary? anything important missing?
06:49:02 <u0_a101> i'm shooting for something reasonably expressive and multi-paradigm, pleasant to use, not something crazy like bf
06:54:05 <u0_a101> ...but at the same time as minimal as it can be, for example one kind of loop should be enough (probably a while loop), and one kind of collection (maybe like lua's table?)
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07:48:36 <zzo38> I think you should need macros and byte arrays. And then is probably good enough I suppose
07:48:59 <zzo38> You might not need boolean type though, but perhaps can help to have null
08:13:31 <u0_a101> zzo38: are you thinking preprocessor macros, or something else?
08:14:18 <u0_a101> null is a good idea, can probably do away with booleans, null will be falsey and everything else truthy
08:18:33 <zzo38> Yes, that can work. Null is false and everything else can be true. About macros, I thought they could be either preprocessor macros or perhaps dynamic macros (depending on how the rest of the programming language is working); you don't need both
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08:25:24 <zzo38> I believe you though that one kind of loop will be enough (probably a while loop), and one kind of collection. Possibly the suitable flow-controls can be: if/else, while, goto, and return; nothing else is needed I think. I don't know what is you think though; you can figure out what you like to do it.
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08:58:32 <u0_a101> zzo38: i think you're right... not sure if goto is needed, but probably either goto or break/continue
08:58:56 <u0_a101> should be a way to break out of loops without return
09:00:00 <u0_a101> it makes me wonder if loops are really necessary, maybe something like a self-recursive function instead
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09:05:13 <zzo38> Perhaps, but while and goto (and if/else and return) can make it convenient to program, even though they are not strictly needed.
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12:00:41 <wob_jonas> u0_a101: you can try to look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mouse or ... uh, there was some low-level language intended to be used as an embedded language that can directly access the memory space of the parent process and with like five types of registers and three-letter commands.
12:01:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what was that latter language and wasn't it one of yours?
12:10:54 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/CLCLC-INTERCAL WTF, a dialect of Intercal without the unary bitwise operators? that's so strange
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13:03:20 <myname> how would you make that
13:03:49 <myname> unary would be easy but stupid, but utf-0?
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15:17:23 <fizzie> There was an UTF-1, but it wasn't 1 as in "one bit", it was 1 as in "first". It's an appendix in the original (1993) ISO-10646, it's a multibyte encoding somewhat similar to UTF-8 except worse.
15:19:57 <HackEso> 350) <coppro> elliott: actually, it's worse right now, I'm in the USA <coppro> where the solution to counterfeiting problems is "add more ink" <coppro> eventually all US bills will just be solid green \ 385) <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse. \ 524) <Gregor> You know how the arrow pierces your skin, rearranging and randomizing vital internal structure? <Gregor> Monads are like that, only
15:20:31 <HackEso> 524) <Gregor> You know how the arrow pierces your skin, rearranging and randomizing vital internal structure? <Gregor> Monads are like that, only worse.
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15:30:47 <Taneb> Burritos and monads are both quite nice
15:31:07 <int-e> I wouldn't want to confuse the two.
15:31:08 <Taneb> Although I tend to overfill them
15:31:17 <Taneb> And that just ends up messy
15:33:17 <Taneb> You should try to not have too many at the same time, too, to avoid bloat
15:39:10 <int-e> So to paraphrase, monads are like burritos; if you stack them too high, the result is inevitably a mess?
15:39:46 <Taneb> Also a burrito inside a burrito is sometimes but generally not a burrito itself!
15:59:15 <arseniiv> is there a ListT burrito which wasn’t done right until some time in the past?
16:12:10 <int-e> Cale knows all about that I believe
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16:46:34 <Cale> Yeah, the ListT in MTL was (and is) incorrect.
16:48:00 <Cale> Yeah, the things it produces are not law-abiding monads unless the monad you give it is commutative, which few monads are.
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17:05:31 <quintopia> how common is it for someone to make a monad named Nock for the lulz?
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17:08:38 <zzo38> What is such monad meaning?
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17:14:18 <int-e> @google "you could have invented hylomorphisms"
17:28:29 <quintopia> zzo38: its up to you to decide that. sometimes, there are names in want of things.
17:35:44 <HackEso> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
17:35:53 <fungot> int-e: i tried /topic in a .c file and see what happens :) they are probably talking more like 100 lines here, and then ' fnord' :p. but that doesn't help
17:36:30 <int-e> (I have not "chatted" with fungot in a while)
17:36:31 <fungot> int-e: where is the acid? where is it? bye!
17:36:45 <int-e> fungot: why are you leaving so soon?
17:36:46 <fungot> int-e: where is lisppaste? i've posted this before i do, be lazy and not check for the extent of your mathematical background. the 1st chapter of sicp.
17:51:19 <arseniiv> fungot: I know where the acid is but I won’t tell you :P
17:51:19 <fungot> arseniiv: are *all* concatenative languages functional? ( no, i'm sure)
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17:52:17 <int-e> it's so surreal when fungot almost makes sense
17:52:18 <fungot> int-e: well the exercise does describe named let adequately i think?) for the ' most jewish' towns in the red river valley, austin, and state indices could be stored
17:53:22 <arseniiv> fungot: btw have you gained conscience already
17:53:23 <fungot> arseniiv: well i could find about it online. but for people who are technically freelancers, but always doubted they really exist in simple examples. :(
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18:06:52 <arseniiv> fungot: как ты относишься к кириллице?
18:06:53 <fungot> arseniiv: i've heard minion is perpetually disgruntled." i have quite a nice learning environment...
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18:14:19 <int-e> arseniiv: it might be if fungot actually took context into account
18:14:19 <fungot> int-e: was that a question in " the call/ cc's
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18:53:02 <zzo38> Are you good at the computer game I put on here a while ago?
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19:16:40 <int-e> high score 80 in the default mode... I don't think that's good
19:20:33 <int-e> http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/MEGAPANE.ZIP
19:33:17 <zzo38> I will add some more options later
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19:57:53 <int-e> arseniiv: are you complaining because it's not esoteric enough? :P
19:59:18 <arseniiv> I haven’t seen a classical (Q?)Basic code in, let me think… forever
20:00:30 <arseniiv> ah, non-classic, no line numbers
20:01:07 <arseniiv> my first real programs were in VB6((
20:01:13 <zzo38> Yes, it is written in BASIC. The source codes are public domain so you can do what you want with it (although the executable file may be copyright by Microsoft). That is what I use when writing programs on DOS (for native programs on Linux I use C). While there are some free BASIC compilers, they should be enhanced to support some of the commands they currently don't and support real mode
20:01:55 <arseniiv> zzo38: also interesting game idea
20:02:34 <int-e> uh I accidently reached 311
20:03:20 <int-e> (and I mean that... I felt out of control the whole time)
20:04:12 <arseniiv> I think it’s pointless for me to continue :D
20:04:57 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/mph.png
20:06:19 <int-e> (this is not a random file name: mph = mega pane highscore)
20:06:42 <int-e> arseniiv: 44 is a more normal score :)
20:07:29 <arseniiv> I feel a bit too slow for this game still
20:08:24 <int-e> I like the solitaire mode that you get if you press "T" once
20:08:51 <int-e> (where the board moves up every 8 moves you make)
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20:12:51 <int-e> actually this part of the game is quite advanced... you can select a preset (0-9), change the settings, save it, and then it'll start recording highscores for that setting
20:13:29 <int-e> reminds me remotely of the good old blockout game
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20:52:42 <int-e> > let act i j = lift (tell [i]) `mplus` lift (tell [j]); x = snd . runWriter . runListT in (x (act 1 2 >> (act 3 4 >> act 5 6)), x ((act 1 2 >> act 3 4) >> act 5 6))
20:52:43 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: runListT :: a1 -> Writer c a0
20:52:56 <int-e> @let import Control.Monad.List
20:52:59 <int-e> > let act i j = lift (tell [i]) `mplus` lift (tell [j]); x = snd . runWriter . runListT in (x (act 1 2 >> (act 3 4 >> act 5 6)), x ((act 1 2 >> act 3 4) >> act 5 6))
20:53:01 <lambdabot> ([1,2,3,4,5,6,5,6,3,4,5,6,5,6],[1,2,3,4,3,4,5,6,5,6,5,6,5,6])
20:54:16 <arseniiv> no messages today my love is gone away, the λ-bot stands forlorn a symbol of the dawn
20:55:41 <arseniiv> int-e: is @let global to all lambdabot?
20:56:31 <u0_a101> zzo38: something you said earlier had me briefly playing with the idea of a super-goto that could also pass values, and be returned to, receiving a value... but i gave up on that after about 30 minutes
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20:56:56 <zzo38> That seem would be difficult to implement, it seem to me.
20:57:18 <u0_a101> yeah, i think you'd have to keep a stack of them to return
20:57:37 <arseniiv> int-e: what one does when some imports are interfering with something, is there a way to un-import?
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20:58:22 <u0_a101> actually goto seems hard to implement in general... how do you handle skipping past a var declaration, etc
20:59:05 <int-e> arseniiv: @undef resets all @let commands
20:59:17 <lambdabot> what lambdabot has in scope is at http://silicon.int-e.eu/lambdabot/State/Pristine.hs
20:59:42 <zzo38> Yes, I do know of difficulties of implementing goto, but one way is to just disallow jumping past a variable declaration. Some programming language expect variable declarations at the beginning of a block, and if you cannot jump into a block then that is automatically the case.
20:59:54 <int-e> arseniiv: @let adds stuff to a file L.hs; @undef copies Pristine.hs to L.hs, overwriting all @let changes
21:00:17 <int-e> it's all very well designed and userfriendly. :P
21:00:18 <arseniiv> u0_a101: all declarations within a block could be treated as its inseparable traits, occurring in the same code with runnable instructions only because of a, let’s say, “bad” design
21:00:57 <arseniiv> int-e: it's all very well designed and userfriendly. :P => I see ::::
21:01:14 <int-e> @let import qualified Control.Monad.List as CML
21:01:30 <int-e> > let t = lift . tell . (:[]); a i j = t i `mplus` t j; x = snd . runWriter . CML.runListT in (x (a 1 2 >> (t 3 >> t 4)), x ((a 1 2 >> t 3) >> t 4))
21:01:32 <lambdabot> ([1,2,3,4,3,4],[1,2,3,3,4,4])
21:02:31 <arseniiv> there could be an interesting er… game when someone privately sends @undef to lambdabot in the heat of someone else building a complex machiery in the chat
21:02:59 <int-e> Anyway this is how ListT is broken: The order of effects of the base monad may change with the bracketing of >> (or >=>), breaking the corresponding associative law.
21:03:36 <int-e> arseniiv: it has caused surprisingly few problems so far... people cope.
21:03:43 <zzo38> Yes, so it only transforms some monads and not all of them.
21:03:58 <zzo38> So it is not a real monad transfomer and only is partial
21:04:36 <arseniiv> int-e: seems reasonable. Also I was half-joking :D
21:04:55 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope: IO :: s -> m (a, s)
21:04:55 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
21:05:12 <u0_a101> arseniiv: so, hoisting var declarations to top of block basically? i'f im understanding you right?
21:05:13 <lambdabot> • Expecting one more argument to ‘IO’
21:05:13 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘IO’ has kind ‘* -> *’
21:05:20 <lambdabot> • Expecting one more argument to ‘IO’
21:05:21 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘IO’ has kind ‘* -> *’
21:05:25 <ais523> :k StateT (IO Integer)
21:06:13 <arseniiv> u0_a101: yep, or think of declarations inside a runnable block like a nops
21:06:38 <int-e> arseniiv: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/logict is "ListT done properly" borrowing from Cont (Codensity, Yoneda, yada-yada).
21:07:14 <int-e> It also gets rid of the lists.
21:07:43 <u0_a101> arseniiv: hmm, interesting idea :)
21:07:57 <ais523> I've been having my own thoughts about things like error handling, backtracking, select(2), and the like
21:08:10 <ais523> I think that there's a way to do it correctly, from a programmer's point of view
21:08:20 <zzo38> You could also disallow jumping to a label if there is a variable declaration between the goto and label
21:08:21 <arseniiv> they are “runned” before all explicit runnable statements do, notwithstanding goto jumps, like a finalizer in try…finally statements is run after something almost always, even if something was thrown
21:08:21 <ais523> and monads are heavily involved, but it's not quite the same
21:08:44 <ais523> I think what you need is to collapse the whole mess of monads and monad transformers into a single universal monad that does everything
21:09:36 <zzo38> (unless the declaration in inside of a block that you are jumping out of.)
21:10:07 <arseniiv> u0_a101: also it combines well with freedom to declare things precisely where you need them, and with lexical scoping too
21:10:52 <u0_a101> zzo38: i think this is what lua does
21:11:07 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know much about what Lua does.
21:11:09 <u0_a101> can't jump past var declaration
21:11:10 <ais523> one big inspiration is that ? from Rust is basically just do-notation, but nicer
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21:11:24 <ais523> <ais523> Rust's x = a? is equivalent to Haskell's x <- a
21:11:34 <u0_a101> also label must be visible to goto, lexically
21:11:39 <ais523> or, well, except that Rust ? only supports Option and Either, making it easier to implement
21:12:07 <arseniiv> int-e: seems I heard of it. Ah I wish I used Haskell more frequently
21:12:09 <FireFly> I guess ? is a postfix operator here?
21:12:30 <zzo38> Well, you should be allowed to jump past a variable declaration as long as you are jumping outside of the block where that variable declaration is. And, yes, of course the label must be visible to goto, too.
21:12:41 <FireFly> or is that, including the assignment, a single syntactic form?
21:13:21 <ais523> FireFly: yes, it's a postfix operator
21:14:43 <ais523> in Rust, it's results in x if its argument is Ok(x), x if its argument is Just(x), and if neither of those is the case, it exits the entire function, returning its argument unchanged
21:14:53 <ais523> (assuming I got the syntax right there, I don't really know Rust)
21:15:16 <alercah> the semantics are not quite right
21:15:20 <ais523> but I personally see ? as more of a "convert the rest of the function into a lambda" operator
21:16:03 <ais523> like, { f; a?; g } ends up being converted to { f; a.map(|| g) }
21:16:28 <ais523> { f; x = a?; g } ends up being converted to { f; a.map(|x| g) }
21:16:43 <ais523> where |x| is "lambda x."
21:16:53 <ais523> this is exactly the same thing Haskell do-notation does
21:17:11 <ais523> or, well, it's not /quite/ the same; do-notation is flatMap (i.e. >>=), not regular map
21:18:00 <int-e> (I believe that's where the || notation comes from.)
21:18:25 <FireFly> ah interesting, I associate it with Ruby
21:18:55 <ais523> anyway, it strikes me that most existing languages/APIs are very bad at common tasks like waiting for one of two unrelated events to happen
21:19:23 <ais523> "wait until someone clicks the mouse or a particular socket receives a network packet" is very difficult with most programming frameworks
21:19:27 <int-e> ais523: erlang should be good at that
21:19:48 <ais523> well, the general solution involves a multiple threads and a blocking queu
21:20:12 <zzo38> Yes, and SDL is also bad at that since not all events are SDL events and SDL can't give you a file descriptor for its events (although Xlib can).
21:20:14 <ais523> I think this is the main reason threading became popular
21:20:23 <FireFly> The most recent case of "that sounds like monadic bind" for me is JS and "await" I think (well, I guess promises in general)
21:20:37 <ais523> FireFly: yes, promises are a special case of this pattern too
21:21:46 <zzo38> JavaScript also has generator functions too
21:21:57 <ais523> I think a well-designed language would use promises for all input, and have an any() operator/function that returned the value of whichever promise completed first, and blocked until one of them did
21:22:00 <ais523> with appropriate error handling
21:22:20 <ais523> what we get instead is a lot of ad-hoc select/poll/epoll calls
21:22:45 <ais523> the UNIX way is to make everything a file descriptor; that's workable, but as zzo38 says, most libraries abstract things away from that model and have no way to abstract-invert them back into it
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21:23:08 <int-e> haskell isn't terrible for this either... depending on your taste, using STM or using its light-weight threads (possibly hidden behind an abstraction like the 'parallel' package)
21:23:37 <FireFly> JS has a Promise.all which is a [Promise a] -> Promise [a] function that waits for all of them to complete; a buncha libraries had a Promise.race but I don't think it ended up being a standard thing ("wait until any settles, then settle with its value")
21:23:47 <FireFly> But you could implement it as a library function of course
21:24:12 <ais523> FireFly: well, this is what an event loop is, effectively
21:24:14 <FireFly> in that case you could do like, const thing = await Promise.race([thing1, thing2]) which is kinda decent?
21:24:15 <int-e> It's the OS interface that tends to be awful. (select, epoll... OS threads are usually too expensive)
21:24:27 <ais523> you'd want the other, unfinished promises to continue though
21:24:38 <ais523> this is what LogicT calls msplit
21:24:42 <shachaf> ais523: This sounds similar to the language I was talking about recently with things that affect the rest of the scope.
21:25:02 <ais523> I guess "head" would be a good name, because list terminology seems to be what people have settled on for monads
21:25:02 <zzo38> JSZM uses generator functions for all I/O (it does not implement I/O itself; the application program must handle it; JSZM is only a library)
21:25:28 <shachaf> Which ended up being pretty SSAy, which is similar to CPS/monads.
21:25:39 <zzo38> Not all monads are list monads, although some have features like list monads, so in that case I suppose "head" seem good
21:25:52 <ais523> zzo38: right, this is just about naming
21:26:19 <zzo38> Yes, for monads that are like list monads you can use the names for those features like those for lists.
21:26:21 <ais523> people find "map" quite intuitive on general monads, for example
21:27:11 <zzo38> Yes, that applies to all monads.
21:28:00 <ais523> naming things makes them easier to learn; I think most people have more of an intuitive idea of "flatMap" (i.e. map then flatten) than they do of ">>=", even though they're the same operation
21:28:11 <ais523> (btw, is there a standard name for monad flattening?)
21:28:54 <ais523> @hoogle Monad m => m (m x) -> m x
21:28:55 <lambdabot> Control.Monad join :: (Monad m) => m (m a) -> m a
21:28:55 <lambdabot> Streaming join :: Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
21:28:55 <lambdabot> Haxl.Prelude join :: Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
21:29:25 <FireFly> I mean, "flatten" would make sense to me if you call flatMap that?
21:29:41 <ais523> I guess "join" sort-of makes sense on lists but it seems misleading for other things
21:30:05 <shachaf> But there's this spawn :: IO a -> IO (IO a) thing
21:30:07 <ais523> @source Control.Monad.join
21:30:13 <ais523> @src Control.Monad.join
21:30:13 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
21:30:14 <int-e> :t (runIdentity .) . traverse . (Identity .)
21:30:14 <shachaf> Which spawns a thing in a thread and gives you and IO value you can use to wait for the result.
21:30:15 <lambdabot> Traversable t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b
21:30:16 <ais523> @src Control.Monad join
21:30:16 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
21:30:25 <shachaf> There the name "join" matches the use of "join" in multithreading.
21:30:26 <zzo38> Still "join" is one of those operation of all monads, not only lists
21:30:56 <ais523> shachaf: the thread "join" is bizarrely named too, though; it's more like "wait for termination and take the value"
21:31:22 <shachaf> But it's funny that it ends up working in that context.
21:31:22 <ais523> I personally think of monads as being formed of map, join, return
21:31:31 <int-e> (not part of the class)
21:31:53 <ais523> haha, because Haskell treats >>= as the primitive, join is implemented by flatMap id
21:31:55 <FireFly> ais523: I mean, it kind of makes sense as a name, since you have two threads of execution, and it joins them into one, by waiting for one of them to terminate?
21:31:56 <shachaf> Yes, that's the standard definition.
21:32:08 <FireFly> well "joins" in the sense of a drawn graph
21:32:17 <ais523> yes, it's the opposite of "fork"
21:32:45 <int-e> so join xs = xs >>= id = concatMap id xs = concat (map id xs) = concat xs
21:33:53 <ais523> hmm, I assume Haskell doesn't have a Lazy monad because it's lazy anyway?
21:34:03 <ais523> laziness is a monad too, though
21:34:31 <ais523> actually I guess it's just the identity monad in Haskell
21:34:36 <shachaf> Agda has a partiality monad.
21:34:48 <shachaf> I guess that's pretty different.
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21:53:15 <zzo38> I think someone mention that a new feature in GHC can be made to treat both >>= and join as primitive and whichever one you do not define will be defined automatically by other one.
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00:01:17 <zzo38> I think that, instead of HPKP, can be TLS-PKP, which is not specific to HTTP(S) and can be used with any protocol. Additionally there is no sending reporting (although a program may display the report to the user if implemented, it doesn't automatically send it anywhere and the protocol has no specification as to where to send it anyways. There is also no mandatory backup pinning, and the user MUST have the ability to configure/disable/override TL
00:08:28 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57312&oldid=57264 * Hakerh400 * (+16) Added link to cat program
00:11:30 <zzo38> (Specifically, the "includeSubDomains" and "report-uri" fields in HPKP would not be available for TLS-PKP, although the key and duration are included, and that is all.)
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00:27:58 <HackEso> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
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01:13:21 <shachaf> Did I mention that I figured out what "break" and "continue" really are?
01:13:39 <shachaf> outer: { while(p) { inner: { ... } } }
01:13:48 <shachaf> "break" means "break outer", and "continue" means "break inner"
01:19:48 <fizzie> shachaf: You might have +R on? I think Freenode auto-set that to everyone because of the spam.
01:20:01 <fizzie> I haven't had the chance to make HackEso register itself to services.
01:20:13 <fizzie> Maybe when I get back from here.
01:20:58 <shachaf> That explains why I haven't been getting /msg spam anymore.
01:21:14 <fizzie> I un-R'd myself, and there's been spam every now and then.
01:21:21 <fizzie> Though for the last few hours it's been quiet.
01:22:39 <oerjan> whoops, i missed a wikipedia day
01:22:53 <oerjan> i thought i'd opened the tab before going to bed.
01:24:30 <fizzie> There was someone biking a gBike through downtown Mountain View in broad daylight. :/
01:25:18 <boily> bonsϿirjan, helloochaf, fiziello.
01:26:36 <fizzie> boily: A usermode you can set to not receive private messages from unregistered users.
01:30:18 <shachaf> are you wishing boily a bad day tdnh
01:30:37 <shachaf> What do you think "the full set" means?
01:30:48 <shachaf> John Baez thinks its the one-element set but that seems fishy to me.
01:31:01 <shachaf> It seems more likely to be the universe.
01:33:22 <fizzie> The half-empty set may actually be the half-full set if you're an optimist.
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04:33:43 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=80
04:33:48 <shachaf> so many good super megas i forgot about
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04:55:13 <zzo38> How can you get a hair cut if you do not have any hair (whether due to your species or due to your baldness)? That is what happened in a GURPS game I played.
04:55:27 <shachaf> you can get someone else's hair cut
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08:28:09 <esowiki> [[Reversible Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57313&oldid=45694 * Oerjan * (+3778) Algorithms for building up to a stack with unbounded cells
08:28:38 <oerjan> now time to either eat or shave
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08:32:49 * oerjan should probably get that code tested at some point.
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10:03:25 <APic> Celebrate Zaraday
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12:47:58 <arseniiv> hello; does somebody know a study on defining a space of possible human voice timbres (with any assumptions and restrictions)? Particularly some analysis of formant values that make a timbre human-ish, or some measure of “humanness” of an arbitrary timbre
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12:49:10 <arseniiv> I know acoustic part of phonetics relies on formant values so the question shouldn’t be at all unresearched
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18:13:41 <int-e> still got it: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/4096.png
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22:03:38 <xkapastel> does anyone have any tricks on creating a binary encoding for an AST where every bitstring is valid?
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22:03:48 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: sorry, I'm rather busy with new stuff that came up just this weekend, as well as the usual old stuff, but I will at some point watch the whole video (russian cursive), even the parts where you start writing more impatiently.
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22:04:21 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: it doesn't bother me too much that the writing is getting ugly. my writing is ugly as hell anyway. as long as it doesn't get as bad as a doctor's, it's fine.
22:05:21 <wob_jonas> I probably won't learn to write exactly that sort of cursive, but at least will figure out some variant I can write for myself that I can read, probably with the letters often disjoint (which is how I write Hungarian too if I want to make it readable for people other than me, and even then it's not very readable, but native speakers can divine a lo
22:05:50 <wob_jonas> I'm still glad that your video seems to make the underlying logic clear, and how it works totally backwards from the hungarian cursive
22:06:42 <zzo38> xkapastel: I have thought of thing like that before, but do not remember.
22:10:09 <wob_jonas> shachaf:`outer: { while(p) { inner: { ... } } } / "break" means "break outer", and "continue" means "break inner"` => it is something like that, but your labels are in the wrong place
22:11:43 <wob_jonas> "How can you get a hair cut if you do not have any hair (whether due to your species or due to your baldness)?" => some video games have haircut salons that change your hair graphics to your choice among the available styles. it can grow your hair.
22:12:06 <wob_jonas> it's an acceptible break from realism since due to limitations of the game, your hair won't just naturally grow. the hairstyles are fixed and small in number.
22:12:26 <wob_jonas> And yes, people often have their kid's hair cut.
22:12:33 <zzo38> OK, although this is not a computer game
22:13:47 <zzo38> Yes, it is, although it may not be applicable here.
22:17:18 <shachaf> wob_jonas: C doesn't have labeled break, so there's no canonical place for the label to go in this syntax
22:17:26 <arseniiv> xkapastel: oh god nice problem. I see only a boring ineffective solution (order bitstrings in some way and the same for trees, and map corresponding ones)
22:17:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but where you put it is definitely wrong
22:17:53 <xkapastel> arseniiv: bonus if every bitstring is a unique AST
22:18:02 <shachaf> In my syntax I'd put it in a different place
22:18:10 <xkapastel> i think this is the setup i want for program synthesis
22:18:14 <shachaf> But where would you put it?
22:18:16 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: okay. I can assure it won’t devolve to doctor’s :D
22:18:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh wait, you say "break outer" and "break inner", not "goto outer" and "goto inner"
22:18:49 <shachaf> Yes, those are meant to be labeling the blocks
22:19:50 <wob_jonas> I'd explain it the way it's defined, like while(p) { loop body; inner: } outer:; and then "break;" means "goto outer;" and "continue;" means "goto inner;" but of course it can bind to other control structures than while
22:20:22 <wob_jonas> I guess the way you told it works too
22:20:32 <wob_jonas> I'm just tired and didn't notice that you translated them to labeled break
22:20:37 <shachaf> Well, C doesn't even support break from arbitrary blocks
22:20:47 <wob_jonas> goto are the natural control structures in my mind, not break
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22:21:15 <zzo38> I agree, goto are the natural control structures rather than break
22:21:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: perl sort of does, and now rust does too, at least arbitrary labeled blocks, at least if it goes outwards, and doesn't go through the boundary of a function body or lambda body
22:21:53 <shachaf> Rust has it for arbitrary blocks?
22:21:59 <wob_jonas> but break are nice control structures too in practice, and rust now encourages them
22:22:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: or will have it soon, I'm not sure
22:22:12 <arseniiv> xkapastel: yeah, my dull solution gives that (if one understands “order” as I did here—mathematically, so in increasing sequence any element would be met once at max)
22:22:12 <wob_jonas> it might not be implemented yet, but I think it's accepted
22:22:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'm a bit tired and unsure, ask on mozilla #rust if you want to know
22:23:19 <wob_jonas> in any case you could have already used a `'label loop{body; break returnvalue}` instead of a bare block
22:23:38 <wob_jonas> which is why the rust guys could determine that breaks on bare loops aren't too dangerous
22:23:50 <arseniiv> there could be even useful optimizations (order strings lexicographically, it’s quite computable in both directions; order trees in some way lexicographically too, and inverting *this* is then a challenge, but in some cases it could be easy)
22:24:22 <wob_jonas> they still had to make sure not to change the behavior of existing unlabeled break, so you can only use a _labeled_ break for a bare block
22:25:41 <wob_jonas> and it's of course possible that they'll only implement this for the rewritten liveness checker (whatever that thing is called) in rustc, so you might have to wait a tad bit more, I dunno
22:26:27 <arseniiv> (any datatypes occuring in nodes should be, of course, also ordered for the latter to work, and a lexicographic order, recursively, is a natural choice then)
22:27:25 <wob_jonas> so I don't know about the status, but the rust guys figured that allowing labeled break from bare blocks is the Right Thing To Do, and will do so eventually if they haven't done it yet
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22:51:11 <zzo38> In this GURPS game someone said the king insisted we all get our hair cut at a specific barber, even though two of us have no hair.
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23:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cool, someone implemented brainfuck as a cellular automaton: http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3277
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23:59:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well, sometimes kings can afford to give you orders that might waste some of your time. at least it doesn't sound too dangerous to go to the barber and tell him to get the haircut on the king's order, or at least not more dangerous because you don't have any hair.
00:00:32 <wob_jonas> If it's a code for the barber to kill you, you're screwed. If it's just an unnecessary order because the king won't micromanage you, the barber will just skip that part.
00:01:18 <shachaf> zzo38: You can certainly have all your hair cut if you have no hair.
00:01:24 <wob_jonas> It could be worse. You could be a soldier under a commanding officer that gives you stupid orders all the time.
00:01:25 <shachaf> Maybe that's the implication.
00:01:44 <shachaf> You can only have some of your hair cut if you have some hair, though.
00:03:23 <zzo38> Ah, of course, I suppose so, that can be sense
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00:16:57 <xkapastel> evolve a brainfuck program to put the largest number possible on a tape with bignums
00:17:31 <xkapastel> a program synthesis benchmark due to chaitin: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7370/00d9e2ea2a1ae9829b681b402831d5f0e3a3.pdf
00:18:46 <xkapastel> if i'm understanding this correctly, that's a good "hard problem" to compare synthesis methods since it requires you to evolve modularity
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00:24:08 <ais523> re: control structures, I find a very commonly used control structure is "attempt to do X, if it succeeds, continue, if it fails, do some cleanup and try again"
00:24:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: "or, well, except that Rust ? only supports Option and Either" => it will be a bit more general than that technically, applying to more types, but not really more expressive. still just allows to write early exits like you can do with an Either, but with more general types
00:24:17 <ais523> this is hard to express in terms of the usual control structures
00:24:54 <shachaf> ais523: If you support general monads, do you impose an order of execution on expressions?
00:25:39 <ais523> either that or declare it unspecified
00:26:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, I write stuff like that with loops. like, for example, when my cbstream bot fails to retrieve the answer from perlmonks, it logs the error, sometimes switches to another webserver (there's three of them), and sleeps for a while, then retries. but the whole thing about querying the server is in a loop anyway, it's just different actions
00:26:20 <wob_jonas> after when it succeeds and when it fails.
00:27:03 <shachaf> I was wondering whether to do that.
00:27:42 <ais523> wob_jonas: what specific sort of loop?
00:27:54 <ais523> in particular, what's the control condition?
00:28:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: an infinite one, mostly. let me check. there's some fatal errors that break out of the whole thing.
00:28:43 <wob_jonas> it's not really a good example of coding. the whole thing is over ten years old and very obsolete and ripe for a rewrite.
00:28:46 <ais523> right, my current idiom for this is while (true) { try; if (success) break; cleanup; }
00:28:56 <ais523> but that doesn't seem like a good fit for a while loop at all
00:29:04 <ais523> I think it's some new control structure that hasn't been named yet
00:29:06 <wob_jonas> and I will have to rewrite because "for over ten years with over twenty users" sounds good on my CV
00:30:25 <wob_jonas> or at least work a lot on it so it works
00:30:35 <wob_jonas> (it would still be obsolete, mind you)
00:31:14 <wob_jonas> it's horribly unsecure from the user's point of view, at least I think, although I never really wrote a proof of concept exploit
00:31:38 <wob_jonas> but it would need some major fixes too and the perlmonks gods are too busy to do that too
00:32:49 <wob_jonas> So, the loop I'm talking about is a loop do; ... end which is an infinite loop
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00:35:19 <wob_jonas> so, "http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/cbstream/#can_i_get_the_source_of_cbstream" ,
00:35:50 <wob_jonas> this loop is just one ruby thread by the way. the body starts with timed condition variable wait loop, which in normal operation amounts to a sleep 30, but the sleep amount varies if there are errors, and it can be woken up early if someone sends a message from irc to perlmonks,
00:36:28 <wob_jonas> then it checks for the emergency stop button (for which some perlmonks operators have a password),
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00:36:35 <wob_jonas> then it does the http query to perlmonks,
00:37:34 <wob_jonas> then it parses the reply (which could also cause a retriable error, but this shouldn't normally happen; it used to because of a misunderstanding between what format perlmonks thought it sends and what I received but I'd cleaned that up, so it should only happen in the very rare case if the reply gets truncated),
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00:38:03 <wob_jonas> errors during the http query itself do happen sometimes though, and are retriable.
00:38:33 <wob_jonas> most of them, anyway. there's some that are fatal, on purpose, so the perlmonks admins can use that to kill cbstream too.
00:39:13 <wob_jonas> anyway, then the success or error and the time the query took and the current time is logged, then on success if any messages were found they're sent to the other thread through a queue so it can print them on irc,
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00:39:36 <wob_jonas> and that's the whole loop in the retreive from perlmonks thread.
00:41:46 <wob_jonas> there are three other threads, one to send messages to perlmonks when someone writes the message on irc, one to read from irc, and one to write from irc.
00:41:50 <wob_jonas> these are ruby threads, not OS threads.
00:42:10 <wob_jonas> and there's some initialization code before the four threads start.
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00:45:49 <wob_jonas> As for those event abstraction libraries, I'm partial to schmorp's libev, at least if you're not targeting win32, but any unix. It handles a lot of details about the better kernel interfaces each unix comes up to replace select/poll, of which there are several in various brands in unix.
00:46:08 <wob_jonas> It can't hide all the details, so you have to read the manual carefully, but it's still a pretty well done library.
00:46:34 <wob_jonas> At least if you are willing to read a well-written manual.
00:46:51 <wob_jonas> Since you write esolang specs, you probably are willing.
00:47:13 <wob_jonas> For win32, I do not recommend it. There's some win32 compatibility, but frankly, win32 is just so different and that's not what libev was made for.
00:48:46 <wob_jonas> Only difficulty is, its interface is a really C-like one, optimized for the case when you want to write a high-performance server watching many file descriptors at the same time, and you can write code that doesn't corrupt memory or cause undefined behavior by calling C libraries wrong.
00:49:12 <ais523> win32 has WaitForMultipleObjects which is a really good idea but it's incompatible with a decent proportion of what you'd want to use it for
00:49:15 <wob_jonas> But if that's what you want, the interface is well designed, and the manual is well written, the implementation is good, and schmorp reacts to sane questions.
00:50:14 <wob_jonas> I can't really tell much about win32. I do a fair share of work on win32, but not the part where I have to write programs that have to deal with the unique ... difficulties of win32.
00:51:02 <wob_jonas> And schmorp doesn't program on win32 either, he writes programs for unices, so he doesn't write libraries that help win32 much.
00:52:09 <wob_jonas> Frankly, avoiding having to deal with the unique parts of win32 is a good life choice.
00:52:25 <ais523> I pretty much gave up on Windows when win16 became obsolete
00:52:50 <ais523> Windows prides itself on its backwards compatibility, but it isn't actually as compatible as all that
00:53:03 <wob_jonas> well, it did become a bit better since the older
00:53:06 <ais523> despite Microsoft's best efforts, things break, and trying to develop new programs to old APIs is really hard
00:53:22 <ais523> shachaf: old win16 functionality started breakinh around win95-win98
00:53:27 <ais523> although it was /meant/ to work
00:53:37 <shachaf> As I remember it Windows XP could still run Windows 2.0 programs.
00:53:55 <ais523> in windows 2 you could play sound through the system speaker
00:53:59 <ais523> in windows 98 that just doesn't work
00:54:05 <ais523> the API exists but does nothing
00:54:28 <wob_jonas> I did run _some_ win16 programs on windows 95 osr2 and they worked fine, but those were programs by MS itself
00:54:45 <wob_jonas> the same old versions of programs, not updated
00:55:46 <ais523> one thing that really annoyed me was that there was no standard program for transferring data between Windows 95 and Windows XP, which is something I really needed
00:55:49 <ais523> (I had an appropriate cable)
00:55:52 <ais523> in the end I ended up writing one
00:56:01 <ais523> that just shoved the data down the serial port
00:56:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, you mean like copying files?
00:56:25 <ais523> right, but more like cat as it didn't send the filenames
00:56:29 <wob_jonas> because on the same computer you could just mount the same fat32 disk
00:56:50 <ais523> basically the equivalent of piping a file into netcat on one computer and out of netcat on another
00:57:02 <ais523> (which is a method I've actually used to send people files before now)
00:57:54 <wob_jonas> well, between two DOS computers, I used norton commander for dos to send files through serial port cable or parallel port cable. was easy to set up.
00:58:30 <wob_jonas> and you could use an old small hard disk if you had the time to open the cases and power down the computer and all that.
00:58:35 <ais523> more recent DOS had a built-in command for that, I think
00:58:38 <ais523> I forget what it was named though
00:59:03 <ais523> I remember it ran at 115200 baud, though, which was surprising for me as I didn't realise speeds above 9600 existed
00:59:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: `mode com ...` to set up serial port, then `copy con1 filename` on destination and `copy filename con1` on source?
01:00:05 <wob_jonas> plus there were some other programs that didn't come with dos
01:00:14 <wob_jonas> but norton commander worked fine for me
01:00:46 <wob_jonas> and I you can still use it on windows 95 osr2, and likely windows 98 too. I don't know about windows xp, but it should probably work.
01:00:47 <ais523> (although using VGA text mode)
01:00:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: norton commander's link has a pretty good gui
01:01:57 <wob_jonas> I also used floppies. they work well when the two computers are too far for a cable and you don't want to move them. just cycle three floppies around, split the file with zip or other programs.
01:02:11 <ais523> I'm pretty sure this isn't a separate downloaded/purchased program I was using (unless it was a DOS program that came with Windows?)
01:02:27 <ais523> I guess it could have been installed by the manufacturer, but in the days of Windows 95 people probably weren't preinstalling DOS programs
01:02:33 <wob_jonas> there could be other programs I just don't know about
01:02:54 <wob_jonas> I did install custom programs to my machine
01:03:14 <wob_jonas> I still have an image with many of those useful programs (some are lost)
01:03:48 <wob_jonas> (and a decent one-floppy compressed rescue disk, and that annoying bot that connects a DOS machine to an irc channel)
01:04:22 <ais523> aha, some searching found it: "interlink" (or "interlnk" because filenames were 8.3 back then)
01:05:02 <ais523> nah, I remembered it as soon as I saw the name
01:05:15 <ais523> part of ms-dos 6, apparently
01:05:29 <wob_jonas> I probably just don't remember it much because norton commander worked well, I used it for transfer on cable many times
01:09:27 <wob_jonas> but these days I barely even run DOS. I'm keeping it around because there are some old games that are worth to revisit and the DOS port is good.
01:09:51 <wob_jonas> some are native DOS only, specifically the Commander Keen series
01:10:20 <wob_jonas> I don't play them these days, but will probably eventually get to it "when I have time"
01:10:40 <ais523> I think most people use DOSbox for that nowadays
01:11:02 <wob_jonas> yeah. I use bochs, or at least used it the last time. dosbox is better for some newer dos games.
01:11:24 <wob_jonas> mostly due to differences in video card and sound card capabilities.
01:11:41 <wob_jonas> might have changed in later versions of bochs and qemu and dosbox of course.
01:12:49 <wob_jonas> back when I used it, bochs had ... interesting bugs. so I disabled the coprocessor, which would in theory slow things down if I weren't on a machine that was from the future compared to what those DOS programs were made for.
01:14:30 <wob_jonas> and doesn't matter for the games anyway
01:16:29 <zzo38> I also use DOSBOX to run LHA, since sometimes I want to copy a file from this computer to another computer with DOS that cannot load ZIP files created from this computer.
01:16:34 <wob_jonas> by coprocessor I mean the 80387 interface of course
01:17:23 <ais523> now I'm wondering when separate 387s died out
01:17:26 <wob_jonas> cannot load zip files? can't you just install some software on it to load those zip files?
01:17:42 <ais523> they're all emulated in hardware nowadays
01:17:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: between 486 and 586. some 486s have the coprocessor built in, and all 586s do.
01:17:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: I assume djgpp has a working unzip program
01:18:02 <wob_jonas> the codenames were 486 DX versus 486 SX.
01:18:20 <ais523> well, nowadays of course, the 387 isn't even a separate part of the chip (apart from its registers), it's all done in microcode
01:18:23 <wob_jonas> but I don't know which one is which .
01:18:27 <zzo38> There is the program to load ZIP files, but it is an old version and is not compatible with the ZIP files created by 7-Zip.
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01:19:29 <wob_jonas> 7-zip maintains a DOS version of 7-zip. it's not as complete as the windows version, but it should work.
01:19:58 <wob_jonas> but there are lots of other dos programs that can read zip files.
01:20:32 <ais523> actually, I think DJGPP has its own zip program that's distributed as a .exe file to avoid the chicken-and-egg issue (it distributes most of its files as .zip files)
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02:38:10 <zzo38> Is this file format for Free Hero Mesh levels does it looks like good to you? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/wiki?name=Level+file+format
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04:15:33 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57314&oldid=57306 * Galaxtone * (-14) /* C */ Removed "ASCII"
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04:23:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57316&oldid=57315 * Galaxtone * (+97) /* S */ Fixed TYPO, removed undefined behaviour of string put, changed default value of string get for differentiation between NULL and end of string.
04:52:34 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57317&oldid=57316 * Galaxtone * (+6) /* S */ Added "UTF-8"
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05:01:10 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57318&oldid=57317 * Galaxtone * (+28) /* C */ Added "UTF-8"
05:02:08 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57319&oldid=57318 * Galaxtone * (-92) /* Instruction Syntax */ Removed force of UTF-8 to ascii, sorry for all the edits :P
05:08:29 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57320&oldid=57319 * Galaxtone * (+67) /* S */
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06:32:18 <zzo38> Natural numbers are found a lot in mathematics, for example in category theory, the finite discrete categories are natural numbers, and addition, multiplication, exponentiation of those categories is like the addition, multiplication, exponentiation of those numbers. Isn't it?
06:38:08 <xkapastel> if you mean there are product, sum, and exponential types in common programming languages, then the analogy to numbers can be extended as far as you like
06:38:20 <xkapastel> you can have negative and fractional types for instance
06:38:33 <xkapastel> so you're dealing with rational numbers instead of natural numbers
06:39:10 <xkapastel> you just need to find computational interpretations that obey the algebraic laws
06:39:54 <xkapastel> https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf
06:41:33 <zzo38> I meant the product, sum, exponential of categories, although what you mention is something too. I do not expect categories to have fractions, although you could perhaps have a program language with negative and fractional types. Can you have the types corresponding to irrational and complex numbers though?
06:42:05 <zzo38> I suppose that with exponents and fractions the result can be irrational.
06:43:24 <oerjan> xkapastel: i think i read that pdf once, and it doesn't actually work if you think about it.
06:43:48 <xkapastel> well it executes, but there is a problem in the denotational semantics
06:44:03 <xkapastel> and there are some problems with e.g. binding a fractional value to itself
06:44:25 <xkapastel> you can also "divide by zero" at the type level
06:44:42 <zzo38> I did think you could have factorials if you have a bijective function type, some time before, I don't know quite though exactly
06:44:46 <oerjan> yeah you get contradictions if you try to take it literally.
06:44:50 <xkapastel> one of the authors of the paper discussed this stuff on reddit
06:44:59 <oerjan> i don't recall exactly which ones i thought of.
06:45:02 <zzo38> I think I read that document too, but do not remember and do not know how to work it either
06:45:10 <xkapastel> but it's still interesting, and can probably be fixewd
06:45:26 <xkapastel> you can also keep going with the analogy and do things like radical types, imaginary types, although i'm not sure how
06:53:23 <esowiki> [[User:SlackerSnail]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57321 * SlackerSnail * (+29) Created page with "[https://ajc2.xyz My website]"
06:53:31 <zzo38> Yes, it is still interesting
07:02:21 <zzo38> I had a article in esolang wiki titled "Gentzen"; how can the variant with linear logic be done, though?
07:05:56 <zzo38> That PDF document does say that these negative and fraction types are used with reversible program language, which seem a less problem to me than something that isn't reversible
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10:56:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Entfedern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57322&oldid=51827 * Zseri * (+339) cat variation
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11:29:08 <esowiki> [[Unfedern]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57323 * Zseri * (+1262) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Unfedern |paradigms=procedural, declarative, object-oriented |author=[[User:zseri]] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |typesys=static |memsys=variable-bas..."
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14:13:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sinthorion * New user account
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16:10:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57324&oldid=57288 * Sinthorion * (+128) Introduction
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16:32:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57325&oldid=57186 * Sinthorion * (+443) more input algorithms
16:33:17 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57326&oldid=57325 * Sinthorion * (-7)
17:16:15 <xkapastel> anyone here interested in a new brainfuck based game?
17:17:19 <bradcomp> that sounds interesting. It's been so long since I wrote bf though
17:17:36 <xkapastel> don't worry, you're not writing bf in this one
17:19:33 <int-e> huh, is the synthesizer supposed to be written in bf?
17:19:46 <xkapastel> int-e: no, it's written in whatever you want
17:19:55 <int-e> then you'll be dividing by 0 a lot.
17:19:56 <xkapastel> it must execute BF at some point though, don't you think?
17:20:27 <xkapastel> i would love to see how you solve this with a denominator of 0
17:20:48 <xkapastel> i'm not even sure what that would imply. are you secretly an agi?
17:21:14 <int-e> because the likeliest candidate for the best program is just 57+ signs followed by . (if the output is in ASCII decimal)
17:21:14 <bradcomp> Interesting that it's based on a BF variant instead of actual BF. I was expecting the number to be a string representation
17:21:45 <xkapastel> int-e: i'm not sure i follow, you're saying the largest number you can output is 57?
17:21:59 <int-e> xkapastel: 57 is the ASCII code for '9'.
17:22:31 <xkapastel> that's not even a large number by the way
17:22:45 <int-e> xkapastel: even easier than; it's all plusses followed by a single .
17:22:53 <xkapastel> so i doubt it would even do well, although you're the second person to try that
17:23:11 <xkapastel> int-e: okay imagine this, the time limit is 4096 steps
17:23:18 <xkapastel> you're saying the largest number you can output is like 4095?
17:23:39 <xkapastel> are you sure you don't wanna think about it
17:23:42 <int-e> in order for a cell to reach n, it has to be incremented n times
17:23:51 <int-e> brainfuck is too limited.
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17:24:23 <xkapastel> hm, maybe i've put the rules the wrong way round, and it shouldn't be limited by time, but it's an adaptation of another game
17:24:35 <xkapastel> i'm not sure that's true though, you should be able to do better
17:25:08 <int-e> xkapastel: you're welcome to find a flaw in my reasoning
17:25:16 <bradcomp> I agree. The only way to increase the value of a cell is by incrementing it. Addition and multiplication are all derived from inc
17:25:47 <int-e> xkapastel: you can make this more interesting with a size limit
17:25:54 <bradcomp> Program size might be a better indicator
17:26:12 <xkapastel> yeah, maybe the real limit is size and not time
17:26:23 <bradcomp> Or just switch to actual BF and look for the decimal representation of the largest number
17:26:29 <int-e> (you'll *also* want to have a time limit; otherwise you'll be in busy beaver territroy where you'll have trouble scoring things at all)
17:26:37 <xkapastel> bradcomp: that one is not too interesting i think
17:27:07 <int-e> (btw I should have used '1' instead of '9' earlier, printing 8 more digtits is worth far more than that meager factor of 9)
17:27:33 <Hooloovo0> to me it looked like it was looking for bf BBs
17:27:42 <Hooloovo0> which does sound kind of boring and impossibly difficult
17:27:53 <Hooloovo0> maybe you have a target number to reach, in the shortest bf program?
17:29:25 <int-e> But regardless, the notion of "total number of BF operations executed in the search for the target program." is impossible to pinpoint and shouldn't be part of the rules.
17:30:07 <xkapastel> i would think you need to execute bf at some point to evaluate candidate programs
17:31:20 <int-e> xkapastel: I might be generating code like [->++<], but the search program would just do x[i+1] = 2*x[i]; x[i] = 0. And possibly never have an explicit tape at all.
17:31:21 <myname> my program would just poll the wiki entry for braiinfuck numbers
17:32:09 <int-e> xkapastel: at which point I would argue that no brainfuck instructions are executed because what the search does isn't expressed in terms of increments, decrements and moving left or right.
17:32:14 <xkapastel> int-e: yeah, changing representations like that is hard to pin down besides saying "don't do that", but i'm not sure how else to measure work
17:32:27 <xkapastel> it's important to know how much effort was put in to finding a program
17:32:50 <xkapastel> the program itself is not interesting
17:32:55 <xkapastel> what's interesting is the method you used to create it
17:33:14 <int-e> xkapastel: So measure actual work. CPU time. Fix a bytecode based programming language like Python and look for a way to count the number of bytecode instructions executed...
17:33:45 <int-e> It should be objective and not depend on how a judge happens to read a particular program.
17:33:48 <xkapastel> i suppose it could be based on webassembly
17:34:28 <bradcomp> What about number of 'candidate programs' generated. I can imagine there might be synthesizers that don't generate candidate programs though
17:35:13 <int-e> bradcomp: Yeah I don't see a need for candidate programs as such, at least not written in Brainfuck.
17:36:10 <bradcomp> I wasn't restricting it to BF. You'll need some sort of Intermediate representation at least though
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17:38:05 <int-e> xkapastel: because I think that working with a higher level language that can be translated to brainfuck but can also be executed efficiently will be much more effective than trying to generate Brainfuck directly, unless you have very stringent size constraints on the code.
17:38:49 <xkapastel> i guess that just needs to be banned
17:38:57 <int-e> good luck with that
17:39:31 <xkapastel> yeah, the best way to do it is to count synthesizer steps i guess
17:39:42 <xkapastel> of course translating to avoid the work count is cheating
17:40:58 <xkapastel> the only feedback is provided by some kind of api harness
17:41:08 <xkapastel> but this still requires standardizing some sort of environment for synthesis
17:41:17 <xkapastel> so i guess webassembly or something like it is needed
17:46:24 <xkapastel> maybe: the programming language is undefined (but happens to be the same one very time), so you can't just write an "equivalent" evaluator
17:46:56 <xkapastel> in the end i don't mind using the honor system, it's just a game
17:47:00 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57327&oldid=57320 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Infinite Cat */
17:47:49 <xkapastel> there's also the approach they used in that Sonic-based deep learning game recently
17:48:00 <xkapastel> https://blog.openai.com/retro-contest/
17:48:06 <xkapastel> there were many different sonic games involved
17:48:28 <xkapastel> the semantics of instructions could be changed slightly somehow so you can't know them ahead of time
17:48:58 <xkapastel> also https://blog.openai.com/learning-dexterity/
17:50:12 <xkapastel> e.g. increment and decrement could have different values, move left/right could have different values
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18:26:22 <xkapastel> that thing about just doing `+` over and over and then `.` is not true in general, there's a kind of constant factor slowdown involved in being limited to brainfuck which is going to be overwhelmed at some point by the algorithm you used to make big numbers
18:29:14 <xkapastel> it couldn't be true otherwise bf wouldn't be turing complete
18:29:49 <xkapastel> if the size of the number you can express with a program is linear in the length of the program how could you be turing complete?
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18:35:05 <bradcomp> bf is turing complete because it has nested loops. So the source code necessary to express a bignum can be much smaller than the number, but it will end up with more operations than a straight incrementation program
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18:38:21 <xkapastel> okay, i guess i was wrong it's actually always a constant number of operations more than the number you can express
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18:42:56 <xkapastel> hm it's not constant, i was way off :<
18:43:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <bradcomp> bf is turing complete because it has nested loops.
18:43:31 <int-e> loop programs = primitive recursive functions
18:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> clearly you don't need unbounded nesting because a program that implements a UTM has only bounded loop nesting
18:44:37 <int-e> yeah, one loop is enough
18:44:50 <int-e> but it has to be unbounded
18:45:05 <bradcomp> I'm not suggesting that _all_ TC languages need nested loops. I am just saying that's what does it for BF
18:45:50 <xkapastel> what is the other BF feature that would give it completeness?
18:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> proof: cap loop length at the max. used by some brainfuck self-interpreter that runs a program encoded on the tape
18:46:27 <int-e> Well, it's true that you need nesting (2 levels should suffice) to make BF Turing-complete.
18:46:58 <Phantom_Hoover> you can write any finite data without using a loop so you can translate any brainfuck program into this
18:48:17 <Phantom_Hoover> my gut feeling is that brainfuck without any loop nesting at all is TC
18:49:04 <xkapastel> what does a BF program like that look like?
18:49:08 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: without nesting, the loop body adds a fixed vector at the current pointer position and shifts the pointer by a fixed amount. so you can solve the halting problem (I'm assuming the tape has only finitely many non-zero cells at each point in time)
18:49:24 <bradcomp> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_minus_-#Depth_two_nesting
18:50:19 <bradcomp> While not a proof that it can't be done without nesting, I think that article counts as some evidence
18:51:05 <bradcomp> i.e. it's been proven to be TC with limited nesting, but not without nesting
18:51:42 <int-e> absence of proof is not proof of absence
18:52:18 <bradcomp> I know that, and explicitly said it isn't a proof
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20:14:03 <esowiki> [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57328&oldid=53311 * Osmarks * (-49)
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23:23:43 <shachaf> Sgeo_: olist tomorrow, right?
23:25:32 <Sgeo_> There either will be an olist tomorrow or not, so 50-50 chance.
23:27:31 <Sgeo_> I just googled for that hoping to find the Daily Show clip, instead I find people who are actually confused.
23:29:09 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/3wsj3a/my_chances_are_always_50_for_everything_am_i_wrong/ ISN'T actually that confused, apparently this person just thinks "50-50" is an appropriate name for "may or may not happen"
23:29:38 <Sgeo_> (I only skimmed the comments)
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02:13:24 <oerjan> @tell Phantom_Hoover <Phantom_Hoover> gah fuck now i'm not sure again <-- looks solid to me. if a loop gets too far into the zeroed area the value at loop exit test becomes constant.
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04:34:44 <esowiki> [[Reversible Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57329&oldid=57313 * Oerjan * (+3596) Clarifications; Unbounded cells, bounded tape TC
04:35:25 <oerjan> (i may have taken ais523's job, somewhat)
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04:48:03 <int-e> Sgeo: without reading I'd assume it's this: https://xkcd.com/1132/
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20:49:43 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57330&oldid=57293 * DMC * (-5) /* Truth Machine */
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02:18:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57331&oldid=57066 * Oerjan * (+339) /* Ideas for TC proof */ RBF done
02:19:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57332&oldid=57331 * Oerjan * (+51) /* Ideas for TC proof */ Make that a section link
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07:35:29 <shachaf> Sgeo: the chances of an olist yesterday are actually 0% hth
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11:30:44 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57333&oldid=57327 * Galaxtone * (+9) /* Infinite Cat */
11:32:23 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57334&oldid=57333 * Galaxtone * (+2) /* Hello, world! */
11:35:48 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57335&oldid=57334 * Galaxtone * (+2) /* Truth-machine */
11:36:02 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57336&oldid=57304 * Galaxtone * (+2) /* Surtic */
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00:18:13 <esowiki> [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57337&oldid=57311 * HereToAnnoy * (-224) Minor changes
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00:19:29 <tswett> I've got a Big Ol' Problem (in the sense of a "math problem").
00:19:52 <tswett> Given an undecidable decision problem, turn it into a programming language with I/O.
00:20:33 <tswett> Interactive I/O, even.
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00:23:31 <tswett> Here's the particular decision problem I have in mind today.
00:23:43 <tswett> Given a finite presentation of a group, is the group finite?
00:24:11 <tswett> You can turn that into a programming language pretty trivially.
00:24:24 <tswett> A program is a finite presentation of a group. The program halts if and only if the generated group is finite.
00:24:55 <tswett> But there's no I/O there.
00:25:55 <tswett> So how do you extend this programming language, keeping within its spirit, in order to give it I/O?
00:27:16 <tswett> Here's an initial idea for some output. You can mark some of the generators, and when your program halts, it outputs the orders of the marked generators.
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03:38:54 <Sgeo> Netscape 4 on Windows 3.1, when it sends applets keyUp, seems to fill the upper bytes of the key code with garbage
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05:11:07 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57338&oldid=57335 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Found one small error (fixed) using the interpreter
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08:50:37 <wob_jonas> tswett: re undecidable program to programming language, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%3F which is a perfect example for that sort of thing IMO
08:52:28 <wob_jonas> tom7's new what? darn, I can't recover lambdabot's message and didn't read it before I closed the window. shachaf, oerjan: who said that and what was it?
08:53:23 <wob_jonas> I don't even know who sent the message
08:53:29 <wob_jonas> and I didn't see tom7's new anything
08:54:12 <wob_jonas> it's not mentioned on his radar or his youtube
08:56:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: Do you mean ZM~~ # Printy# C with ABC!? because I have seen it in 2017 and talked with you about it and even wrote messages to tom7 a short writeup on the esowiki. so you must be meaning something newer
08:58:49 <wob_jonas> and I have seen "Reverse emulating the NES" too of course, and it's great. I'm not really satisfied with the name "reverse emulating", but tom7 always gives such whimsical names, like the unibycle
08:59:52 <shachaf> wob_jonas: He made a 48-hour game thing
09:00:20 <wob_jonas> no blog post yet, but he must be tired after the 48 hours
09:00:38 <shachaf> http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/
09:01:09 <wob_jonas> I've played his wire connector games, and wikiplia (which doesn't really count), and the nested falling squares, but not any of the others IIRC
09:01:19 <wob_jonas> oh, and a bit of the original Escape
09:01:34 <wob_jonas> but only the wire connector and the falling squares are 48 hour or 24 hour ones
09:02:10 <wob_jonas> do you happen to know what the prompt of the ludum dare was? tom7 always forgets to say
09:03:36 <shachaf> Apparently the theme was "running out of space"
09:04:05 <shachaf> Which is also the name of the game, and gur znva zrpunavp bs gur tnzr?
09:04:52 <wob_jonas> so he made an inventory management game with too few inventory space? after the wire connecting game had a softlock bug where you ran out of space to place the item you picked up? nice
09:05:31 <shachaf> Knowing that that's the name of the game puts it in a slightly different light.
09:06:07 <wob_jonas> oh, the four words at the bottom are clickable too!
09:06:50 <wob_jonas> that doesn't look like the standard galactic alphabet, but there's a chance it's a simple substitution cipher, knowing tom7
09:06:55 <shachaf> s/name of the game/theme of the competition/, I mean. I already knew the other thing.
09:07:03 <shachaf> It's a simple substitution cipher.
09:07:09 <wob_jonas> doesn't everyone in the galaxy use standard galactic alphabet though?
09:07:14 <wob_jonas> why is this particular alien different
09:07:42 <shachaf> What's standard galactic alphabet?
09:08:10 <wob_jonas> it's a simple substitution cipher for the 26 ascii letters plus one or two extra from the Commander Keen series
09:08:35 <wob_jonas> http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Standard_Galactic_Alphabet tells more than I could
09:09:03 <wob_jonas> the Commander Keen games have labels of it everywhere, including "EXIT" signs at the ends of the level
09:09:28 <wob_jonas> also gives the full alphabet in some hidden place in case you can't figure out
09:11:15 <wob_jonas> and the Keen 5 ending sequence shows a letter from the big bad of game 3 and Keen's arch-enemy that reveals that Keen did not kill him at the end-boss of game 3 as you thought, only his "android dummy", so he's still alive and plotting
09:11:18 <shachaf> http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/spacefont.png
09:12:31 <wob_jonas> I already figured out what three of the four bottom labels should mean
09:12:46 <wob_jonas> tom7's nice consistent style of giving easy clues in such a game helps a lot
09:13:15 <wob_jonas> leftmost and rightmost are obvious
09:13:25 <wob_jonas> but the third one doesn't look like it can be "inventory"
09:13:49 <wob_jonas> but I have my trusty frequency dictionary grepping with backreferences for these cases
09:14:57 <wob_jonas> the English frequency dict compiled by http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts/ of course
09:15:47 <wob_jonas> I recommend it for all English word problems
09:21:05 <wob_jonas> hopefully if I restart, the hover text of the fire extinguisher helps
09:21:22 <wob_jonas> I'll have to get back to this later, but I'm busy and really have to work and rest instead
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09:25:42 <wob_jonas> It's not linked from the Ludum Dare section from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/ yet, so I don't know how you figured out it even exists. You must be subscribed to some secret news source I don't know of.
09:25:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do we need a tom7list? we have like four people who care about his projects
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10:04:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mhmdyasr * New user account
10:20:34 <esowiki> [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57339&oldid=56735 * A * (+154) List all 3 possibilities for creating an infinite loop.
10:24:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57340&oldid=57324 * Mhmdyasr * (+144) /* Introductions */
10:27:44 <wob_jonas> oerjan: shachaf pointes out http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/ , a new Tom 7 Ludum Dare game
10:28:02 <wob_jonas> who else is there I should notify?
10:30:30 <wob_jonas> Taneb: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/ , guy with some amazing projects, some related to computers or mathematics (he has a PhD in maths), some to marathon running
10:32:28 <wob_jonas> has ran a marathon with a birthday cake once, and once completed a marathon in a full hockey player costume with skates http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/comment/1/1100
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10:32:48 <wob_jonas> also writes articles for sigbovik, a joke conference
10:33:40 <esowiki> [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57341&oldid=57339 * A * (+82)
10:33:41 <wob_jonas> ok, that one wasn't a marathon, only 10 kilometers
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10:34:36 <wob_jonas> and ran in a shark costume once and in an escaped convict costume once. that's the four running in costumes project that he did.
10:35:19 <wob_jonas> you can find all five from the hockey link
10:35:28 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57342&oldid=57272 * A * (-1096) Blanked the page
10:35:57 <wob_jonas> also keeps up posting "every month" to her blog since 2000, which is quite an accomplishment
10:36:25 <wob_jonas> had to backdate some entries by as much as two days lately to make it work, but sticks to the at least one post for every month
10:38:27 <wob_jonas> I think most of the running projects were 10 kilometers
10:41:36 <wob_jonas> there was a cake costume (not running with a cake, but running as a cake) too somewhere
10:43:20 <wob_jonas> http://radar.spacebar.org/?month=10&year=2015 is the cake costume
10:44:38 <Taneb> Sounds like an interesting fellow
10:45:12 <wob_jonas> so at least seven costume running. wow, I didn't realize there were so many
10:46:22 <wob_jonas> there's a balloon one and a slippers + bathroom cloak one too
10:46:41 <wob_jonas> http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/category/1/races
10:49:26 <wob_jonas> ^ that should show all the costume running, if he categorizes well
11:03:23 <int-e> hmm cute little game
11:07:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: who else do we ping on the tom7list? I think I forgot someone
11:09:25 <int-e> how many typos are there? it's kind of embarrassing that there's one in one of the commands :)
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11:14:31 <int-e> // XXX remove "cheat" keys
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11:16:22 <wob_jonas> int-e: he has those in other games too. so what. they're useful for debugging. if you play you can abstain from using them if you want.
11:17:24 <int-e> I guess it's the only typo. There really isn't all that much text :)
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11:20:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: isn't there hover text for all items?
11:21:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: if there really is a typo, email tom7 because maybe he hasn't noticed it yet
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17:30:26 <HackEso> Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
17:30:56 <HackEso> grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
17:32:42 <wob_jonas> the entry for angband should mention the first dungeon
18:05:31 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth in the first dungeon Utumno, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:05:33 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth in the first dungeon Utumno, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:06:03 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:06:05 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:06:43 <wob_jonas> Although I think it's deliberately confusing or something
18:10:08 <wob_jonas> it wasn't the humans alone. Beren the human and Galadriel the elf took part in that fight with the valar, and they defeated Morgoth there but didn't utterly destroyed him, so his final defeat was the miracle in Numenor.
18:10:30 <wob_jonas> you don't put all that in a wisdom, but it shouldn't say just the valar
18:10:57 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
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18:10:59 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:11:31 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and was the final boss in Numenor.
18:11:34 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and was the final boss in Numenor.
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18:12:00 <wob_jonas> not really the final boss, more like the big bad
18:12:14 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor.
18:12:16 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor.
18:12:25 <wob_jonas> just that it wasn't a final defeat
18:12:41 <wob_jonas> the other evil spirits include Sauron of course
18:13:48 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
18:28:26 <arseniiv> https://s22.postimg.cc/5atvbynox/Screenshot-1533.png strange, I’ve seen that face before
18:30:40 <HackEso> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
18:31:04 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
18:31:31 <arseniiv> ah I’ve already read that, it seems
18:33:54 <wob_jonas> yes, örjan is the name of the hypothetic third twin, but he probably doesn't exist
18:36:32 <HackEso> [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+030A COMBINING RING ABOVE]
18:37:52 <arseniiv> there should be also ɵrjan, œrjan, ɶrjan(?) and maybe an aliens named ǫrjan and ᴔrjɐn
18:38:56 <arseniiv> int-e: maybe there is a precombined one, I just don’t see it in ol’ Charmap with DejaVu Sans
18:38:58 <wob_jonas> I don't think anyone uses that, not even those crazy conlangers that make conlangs with like nine vowel tones that must be distinguished and diacritics used to write them.
18:39:54 <\oren\_> wait that's not a latin character
18:40:21 <int-e> nobody cared to make that entry
18:40:22 <wob_jonas> I'm very hazy here, but I think think I've seen are two of those crazy conlangs, one with like nine and one with only eight, but the former uses tones for grammar and the latter for vocabulary and the former has only like five vowel values but the latter has as a larger inventory of crazy diphtong vowels than mandarin.
18:40:40 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: there's the volapuk version, Ꞝ
18:41:26 <arseniiv> at least for a lazy native of a non-tonal language
18:41:31 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: conlangers used to not care so much about technical limitations
18:41:34 <wob_jonas> yes, natural languages probably don't distinguish more than six
18:41:53 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think they *know* about the technical limitations and deliberately want to exceed them
18:43:11 <wob_jonas> wait, ᴔ? is that only IPA or one of those used for writing systems constructed for africian languages?
18:45:07 <arseniiv> there also are conlangs for a nonhuman speech apparati (uh I think this form is totally wrong), e. g. with many more places of articulation or “nassalities” or something multitonal…
18:46:09 <arseniiv> probably neither => yeah AFAIK it’s in no version of IPA yet and is not planned to be there
18:46:13 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, like https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=178 although Sam never made a real conlang for it, only gave translations
18:46:52 <wob_jonas> mind you, (WARNING DON'T READ IF YOU'RE SQUEAMISH) a few humans have a split tongue as deliberate body modification
18:47:37 <arseniiv> hm does a split tongue open new phonetic possibilities?..
18:47:45 <wob_jonas> no, he deliberately left something for his fans
18:48:41 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I've no clue. I also don't understand the phonetic possibilities for just ordinary humans, and already have problems with things like French and English
18:48:48 <arseniiv> btw I read his Ra sequence and some other things
18:49:14 <arseniiv> but Fine Structure was too much complicated
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18:49:38 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I enjoyed his early fiction more, but probably mostly because of nostalgia. stickmanstickman introduced me to webcomics.
18:49:49 <wob_jonas> and it was already completed when I first read it
18:50:33 <wob_jonas> in retrospect, after reading lots of other webcomics, it's not a very good one, but I still love it
18:50:58 <arseniiv> (I haven’t known of it before it was mentioned here)
18:51:52 <wob_jonas> mind you, he posted a new strip every day (except one he missed for technical reasons and inserted later), and his filler material was consistently better than the filler material some other webcomic artists like Jeph used to "post a strip every day"
18:52:17 <arseniiv> it has some charm, as of those episodes I saw
18:52:29 <wob_jonas> kept it up for exactly 1000 strips, which idea he got from Tailsteak's first webcomic. Tailsteak has since completed a second webcomic at exactly 1000 strips, but it's less enjoyable than the first one.
18:52:55 <wob_jonas> admittedly Jeph kept at the daily posting for longer, and he actually draws good art
18:53:33 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: find the links on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn , search for Tailsteak
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18:54:13 <arseniiv> (btw does someone know an English interjection dictionary? In critical moments, I lack in descriptions)
18:56:32 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: thanks for the link
18:59:17 <arseniiv> how do you people think, does an illustrated serial written in a conlang not described prior, has a chance?
19:01:19 <\oren\_> arseniiv: certainly could be a cool way of creating and demonstrating a conlang
19:01:54 <\oren\_> arseniiv: actually I think there was a webcomic with a conlang in it
19:02:25 <wob_jonas> aarseniv: tailsteak's 0/1 and sam's stickmanstickman, like many other webcomics, started as disjoint and a coherent plot got invented later. tailsteak then experimented with a number of smaller webcomics, but took neither very far and didn't complete any but very short ones.
19:03:09 <wob_jonas> when he eventually started Leftover Soup, he planned it, the comic starts with a plot from strip 1 and takes it to a resolution. also still posted daily, but with a larger buffer, and the buffer was public for some reason.
19:03:31 <wob_jonas> at least the comic images of the buffer was, not the annotation and transcript
19:04:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: you’re very knowledgeable :)
19:04:46 <wob_jonas> nah, more like obsessed and had more free time back then
19:05:14 <wob_jonas> I'm not knowledgable in the plot details of Fine Structure or Ra, but I remember most of StickManStickMan
19:05:49 <\oren\_> arseniiv: yeah, it was this one http://unicornjelly.com/
19:06:12 <\oren\_> arseniiv: guy invented an alien language with its own logographic writing system
19:06:17 <wob_jonas> not enough to quickly find strips I want to reference though, so sometimes I think I should take the time to make a transcript or at least keywords per script at least for the random sequences of interlude (filler, non-plot, plot is waiting, joke a day) strips
19:08:17 <wob_jonas> in one of these countries like Switzerland or Belgium or possibly Finland, where the culture actually embraces that the country uses two or three languages and people put bilingual signs in their private property not because of a law but because they genuinely enjoy it
19:08:42 <wob_jonas> (unlike, you know, Québec, where there are a lot of radicals saying that there should be only one language used there, French)
19:08:59 <wob_jonas> especially in countries where the two languages use the same script and same digits
19:09:49 <wob_jonas> does it ever happen that people write price tags with the same price in the same currency listed twice, because both of the languages has an idea of the only one right way to write an amount of currency,
19:10:14 <wob_jonas> but they differ in the value or placement of the currency sign(s), how decimal fractions are denoted, or even the thousands separator?
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19:10:28 <wob_jonas> If not, can we somehow engineer such a situation in one of those countries?
19:12:41 <wob_jonas> The friendly bilingual situation very rarely occurs in some of these programming libraries so they have a C++ and a Python API of all important functions, both developped and released together by the main developers, rather than a Python API (or C++ API for a C library) written later,
19:13:07 <wob_jonas> but it's not exactly analog, because the library itself is implemented all in C++, you don't need a python interpreter to use the C++ API in full
19:14:18 <wob_jonas> Also, is imagining such a price tag an esoteric thing in the sense this channel uses it?
19:16:06 <wob_jonas> The orthography rulebook of Hungarian by the National Academy of Sciences (MTA) is very particular that the abbreviation for forint is written as Ft without a period, which makes it a double exception from normal rules of abbreviations, but makes sense if you think of it as similar to physics units notation
19:16:46 <wob_jonas> that way it would be still not italic and without the dot, but the upper case is not explained by anything other than the historical point of distinguishing it from fillér more clearly
19:22:57 <quintopia> @tell boily polygod comes out of beta tomorrow. they say multiplayer actually works now.
19:36:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57343&oldid=57340 * Asu` * (+115) /* Introductions */
19:36:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57344&oldid=57309 * Asu` * (+90) /* Implementations including Hardware */
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19:39:04 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57345&oldid=57344 * Asu` * (+5) /* Optimizing implementations */
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21:27:22 <HackEso> olist 1135: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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00:16:38 <tswett> Well, since I'm spewing the link everywhere else...
00:16:47 <tswett> I created this Discord server for speaking in/about Interlingua. https://discord.gg/bHk4V4N
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01:49:12 <zzo38> I have added many new options into Megapane game
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04:47:59 <zzo38> When will the next version of SQLite be released? I want the version with window functions (and some bug fixes, one of which I reported, and it has been fixed now but not released yet)
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09:48:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: be patient. window functions are a major new functionality, not trivial to implement correctly without compromising the usual reliability of sqlite, they need some time to iron out the bugs.
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12:07:52 <wob_jonas> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/intelligence => "Original"? dude, that's basically the plot of the *Phineas and Ferb* special episode "Night of the Living Pharmacists" upside down. It's not original. Very few of SMBC is.
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14:14:33 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: your comment reminded me one of details I loved in P&F: that evil scientists there are _always_ thought of as pharmacists by laymen :D
14:50:37 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: one of the many running gags, yes
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16:09:42 <wob_jonas> The SD cards I ordered on ebay have arrived in the mail today from Hong Kong. Hopefully they're genuine Kingston, not fakes.
16:10:46 <wob_jonas> But the surprise is: the envelope has postage stamps. There's someone who still uses postage stamps today, and sells consumer electronics. At least the address is on adhesive paper printed with a laser printer, not typewritten.
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16:20:42 <wob_jonas> I'll be able to test the write speed of course. If the write speed isn't what they promised, then it's a fake.
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16:55:30 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I think you are correct about window functions, but I have not seen any recent coding about window functions (although at the time there was, there was many changes due to fixes due to bugs and that stuff)
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17:00:32 <zzo38> Would you want window functions in UPDATE statements?
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17:05:06 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2657949/when-it-all-lands-right-in-your-lab/
17:05:07 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
17:05:26 <wob_jonas> Everyday Heroes continues, with a new artist
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17:18:41 <zzo38> Do you know how to write in Latin? http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+9 If you know then the mention of the Latin inscriptions, we can mention in there, their writing in Latin as well as English; currently I only have English. (Near the beginning of that there is the mention of the Latin inscriptions in the box)
17:19:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't know how to write in latin
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17:36:28 <arseniiv> zzo38: I’ll ask my calligraphic friend
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17:44:52 <zzo38> OK, hopefully they know
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17:46:28 <arseniiv> zzo38: now just asked, let’s wait for an answer
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18:03:34 <arseniiv> he somewhat struggles to translate “really” in these cases, maybe he’ll translate it later after consulting dictionaries, if it’s not urgent
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18:07:09 <wob_jonas> We just had a short (few minute long) power outage affecting more than this house. It was immediately obvious, because I heard a generator spin up, and I was in a mobile phone call (2G) and the call broke and then the cell tower coverage restarted 20 second later. The cell tower is on a taller house on the other side of the street.
18:09:12 <zzo38> arseniiv: It isn't urgent, so that is OK.
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18:15:50 <wob_jonas> And a second power outage, but only for like 30 seconds this time. Cueing house alarms immediately. I guess the electricity grid was switching back from some backup connection to the normal one.
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18:20:58 <HackEso> infrastructure? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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18:21:45 <int-e> . o O ( Infrastructure is what you don't notice or care about unless it's failing. )
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18:41:57 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'm playing Running out. while I think an alien that doesn't speak in the standard galactic alphabet is unrealistic, obviously other parts of game design override that.
18:42:50 <zzo38> Speech in alphabets? I thought is the alphabet to use for writing.
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18:43:33 <wob_jonas> The game is very helpful with giving a lot of labels: even before I get past the first obstacle (which I could do even without reading anything) I could decode so many labels that I have the transcription of 22 out of 26 ASCII letters, and since most of them appear in multiple uses, I can even confirm which one is the typo you were talking about
18:43:57 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well, the game shows the alien's speech as writing in the user interface
18:44:19 <wob_jonas> or telepathic communications, if he's doing that. I don't know which.
18:44:48 <zzo38> Still maybe some telepathic communications are difficult to understand
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18:53:42 <wob_jonas> basically, most letters except for the rare ones
18:58:52 <int-e> Yeah you can dig into the resources for the remaining 4-5 letters.
19:00:06 <wob_jonas> I don't need them until they appear in some label, and they'll probably be unambiguous the first time I meet them
19:00:39 <int-e> wob_jonas: you won't encounter them :P
19:02:35 <wob_jonas> oh! the inventory typo makes even more sense now
19:03:06 <int-e> hmm, maybe there are two typos
19:03:46 <wob_jonas> what I don't like is how quickly some text replies disappear
19:03:55 <arseniiv> two wrongs^W^W two typos in the same place don’t make an untypo
19:05:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: I made screenshots and then copied new letters in The Gimp :P
19:06:13 <int-e> so yes, I agree, they are too fast
19:06:13 <wob_jonas> and sometimes error messages appear partly outside the screen
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19:11:40 <arseniiv> one En-Ru dictionary tells me that “typo” is a typographical jargon for “typographer” first. Is it outdated or is it really in use by some outdated^W typographers? I mostly use En-En dictionaries these times, but sometimes I want to translate a word or other, and this dictionary then often confuses me by its strange articles or by lacking a translation for a vital, common phrase (mostly going Ru→En for this one)
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19:13:13 <int-e> everyone is a typographer these days
19:13:57 <int-e> (more seriously I thought it stood for "typographical error" and has found a new life simply meaning "spelling error" perhaps even "typing error")
19:14:19 <int-e> In any case typos certainly aren't what they used to be.
19:17:11 <wob_jonas> I'm at the first hard puzzle part after the introduction
19:18:21 <arseniiv> I agree nowadays “typo” is not anything typographical but is specifically a typographical error, and by transfer, a spelling or typing mistake, but so blarantly write it means “typographer” nowadays without even tagging it properly…
19:21:16 <arseniiv> just can’t believe were they (that dictionary’s compilers) that inconsiderate?
19:22:01 <arseniiv> they totally could have been, though
19:22:25 <int-e> how many entries are there, when was the entry added, and when was it last revised? (the latter information would be a useful addition to dictionaries (am I sounding like zzo38?)))
19:23:43 <wob_jonas> int-e: if it doesn't tell when it was last revised, then either it's an old dictionary or a cheap bad one.
19:23:57 <int-e> wob_jonas: I meant on each individual entry
19:25:58 <wob_jonas> I think that would only make sense in a digital dictionary online that is refreshed continuously
19:26:03 <int-e> So, perhaps this would be meaningful information: how big is the market for en-ru dictionaries? This correlates with how much effort publishers can put into creating, verifying, and updating those entries.
19:26:16 <wob_jonas> now I'm trying random commands by the way, in case one of them works
19:30:54 <wob_jonas> And yes, my first guess from the game title and the Diablo inventory window was right
19:31:46 <int-e> damn I missed that
19:32:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: have you played the wire game, also by tom7? wire connector
19:32:24 <wob_jonas> it had a softlock bug, which tom7 knew about but didn't have time to fix
19:32:36 <wob_jonas> and my guess was that he turned that bug into a game feature now
19:33:36 <int-e> if so, he subverted it
19:34:27 <arseniiv> I think that would only make sense in a digital dictionary online that is refreshed continuously => yeah, it’s a digital one but not a web one, it was originally shipped on CDs with its shell app
19:35:16 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: is it updated in any way after the CDs?
19:35:22 <wob_jonas> also, can you tell what dictionary it is?
19:35:49 <wob_jonas> if it's based on a paper dict, it's possible that for most entries they simply don't have the info of when it was last modified recorded
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19:37:03 <arseniiv> the developer came to be famous for OCR software, but they also worked with various digital+linguistic stuff, so some dictionaries for various language pairs, mostly Ru↔other
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19:39:03 <wob_jonas> and sometimes messages are buffered so you have to wait until the old irrelevant ones scroll past before you see the newest message
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19:40:27 <wob_jonas> I'm at the second or third puzzle and the obvious things I tried don't work
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19:42:16 <arseniiv> 2008, 100k articles, 37 references to dictionaries, British National Corpus and a specialized forum, hm
19:42:58 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: is this a ru<->en dictionary?
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19:43:47 <wob_jonas> not typo, just message showing in inappropriate case
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19:44:36 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I think there are newer versions of it, but I think these “archaic mentions” here and there are there almost from the start, so maybe they remain further, too (let me search something…)
19:44:50 <arseniiv> also I think they’ve taken too much
19:45:23 <arseniiv> if it's based on a paper dict, it's possible that for most entries they simply don't have the info of when it was last modified recorded => yeah there are references to many paper dictionaries
19:45:25 <esowiki> [[Your Minsky May Vary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57346&oldid=46037 * Zseri * (+5)
19:48:02 <int-e> and a blatant physics violation
19:50:38 <wob_jonas> and now I'm solving the inventory puzzle
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19:52:52 <wob_jonas> do I have to restart from a soft-lock? but even then I don't quite see
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19:56:24 <wob_jonas> but totally characteristic of tom7
19:57:34 <zzo38> Is it possible in DOSBOX to set the date/time only for one DOS session?
19:59:44 <wob_jonas> the end. I don't know if there's a true ending I missed.
19:59:56 <wob_jonas> but it faded to dark and took me back to title screen
20:00:24 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: is this a ru<->en dictionary? => yeah, to and from
20:00:45 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: is it a good one? or are you still trying to decide that?
20:01:40 <int-e> wob_jonas: congrats, and thanks for getting rid of those pesky aliens :)
20:02:16 <wob_jonas> Kirk says "Please make yourself". I don't know if I've made myself.
20:03:46 <zseri> I tried to fetch the dump from esolangs.org via zsync, which fails. But it succeeds if I manually download the zsync file to use http instead of https. Maybe http should be the default when the zsync file is fetched via http; and via https if the zsync file was fetched via https?
20:03:49 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I use it rarely these times. A while ago, I used an earlier version of it more often and I haven’t mistranslate anything AFAIR
20:04:20 <arseniiv> mostly it sucks when I search for an interjection or a common phrase, to find it missing
20:04:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: it's "Please make yourself at home!"
20:04:49 <int-e> (which is a strange phrase)
20:04:49 <arseniiv> but it’s simply because it’s not that big
20:04:53 <wob_jonas> I thought it was "Please make yourself comfortable"
20:05:09 <quintopia> my answer to that is usually "aw, but home's an hour away and i just got here!"
20:05:13 <wob_jonas> If there's a true ending, then either it's connected to Kirk, or to that one item I couldn't find out what to use for
20:06:22 <wob_jonas> quintopia: tom7's new game, http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/
20:06:30 <int-e> wob_jonas: there's no other ending.
20:06:42 <wob_jonas> int-e: have you read all the code?
20:06:51 <int-e> and I found this one perfectly satisfactory.
20:07:11 <wob_jonas> what? the one I got just faded black and went back to the opening title screen
20:07:12 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, huh, you never did use that one item, did you
20:07:24 <shachaf> Opening title screen? It didn't go to a music-playing screen?
20:07:41 <wob_jonas> music-playing, but the opening title is also a music-playing
20:07:55 <int-e> wob_jonas: I got a black screen, rather than the opening screen
20:08:03 <shachaf> As far as I know the game ends when you bibcbfvg gur pncgnva'f obql
20:09:17 <wob_jonas> I wonder if someone's already submitted a real-time speedrun somewhere
20:12:27 <int-e> anyway, typo; the third letter of the third command is wrong... or perhaps it's just alien terminology.
20:12:33 <zseri> fizzie: zsync dump sync fails often if https is used in Z-URL in the .zsync file, but it doesn't, if http is used (my local installed zsync doesn't seem to work well with https); is it possible to let the zsync file use https in Z-URL if ..xml.zsync if downloaded via https; and http otherwise?
20:12:46 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, that's what I thought at first, but no:
20:13:16 <wob_jonas> that might be alien terminology, yes
20:13:36 <wob_jonas> don't forget that tom7 invents words like "unibycle" and "anaglyph"
20:13:47 <wob_jonas> I think it's the last letter of the second command that's wrong
20:13:49 <int-e> "alient terminology" is certainly the excuse I would use if I were tom7 :)
20:14:12 <shachaf> int-e: The third command is the one I wrote above in rot13?
20:14:12 <wob_jonas> it is at least consistently used that way in messages
20:14:42 <wob_jonas> it's not only typoed in the command, also in messages
20:15:08 <int-e> wob_jonas: and the file names for the animation
20:17:23 <wob_jonas> hehe, kirk has directional hearing. if you stand in front of him, he doesn't reply.
20:21:02 <quintopia> oh cool. tom7 is a cool guy. i'll check it out later.
20:21:52 <wob_jonas> quintopia: this is a game he made for a game creation marathon, where he composes original graphics, music, gameplay and game implementation to a short deadline
20:22:08 <wob_jonas> he has made several such games in the past, linked from his internet
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20:26:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Wiki dumps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57347&oldid=30649 * Zseri * (+552) /* Troubleshooting */ new section
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20:47:41 <zzo38> There is Tom7's "Escape" game, possibly after Free Hero Mesh is made, it can be ported to Free Hero Mesh.
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20:49:16 <int-e> wob_jonas: connector world is so brutal
20:59:32 <wob_jonas> It looks like there will likely be no rain or wind on Saturday or Sunday. I might risk not taking a jacket.
21:01:16 <wob_jonas> I have to leave. Goodbye, everyone.
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21:02:22 <zzo38> I got a message from valgrind that says "Warning: set address range perms: large range [0x395a5040, 0x74f51a40) (undefined)" do you know what this message is?
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21:04:53 <zzo38> Actually I think I figured out why; the difference of those two numbers is the same as the SQLite maximum length of a SQL statement, and I had a allocation of that size even though it should be smaller, but I fixed it now
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21:49:23 <zzo38> Despite that I still do not know why it says "(undefined)" afterward and those stuff, although I found out the mistake in my program that caused that message
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22:24:39 <zzo38> Do you know if DOSBOX can emulate PC joysticks?
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23:38:40 <esowiki> [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57348&oldid=55332 * Qwertyu63 * (-1853)
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23:52:25 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57349&oldid=56030 * YamTokWae * (+75) /* Commands */
00:04:57 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57350&oldid=57349 * YamTokWae * (+748) /* Commands */
00:13:00 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57351&oldid=57350 * YamTokWae * (+4)
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02:32:09 <zzo38> I don't know if there are similar ideas from other philosophers like my ideas of dual free will and transcendental deterministic free will.
02:33:39 <rain1> what is that idea?
02:33:41 <rain1> i never heard that
02:35:50 <zzo38> My ideas are: Dual free will assumes a nondeterministic universe, and there are two kind of free will, being classical free will and quantum free will; quantum free will is more free but is also less effective than classical free will. Transcendental deterministic free will means a deterministic universe that uses transcendental numbers in the initial state in order to make a kind of free will.
02:36:27 <zzo38> (This argument does not prove the existence of free will, but it allows it to be possible.)
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03:43:17 <MDude> I still don't see how the Greeks thought it was a good idea to have free will be in opposition to determinism, what with determinism meaning your actions are determined by your own traits?
03:43:52 <Sgeo> pikhq, halp I seem to be mentally designing yet another Tcl OO system
03:44:12 <shachaf> can you design my language instead
03:44:17 <Sgeo> {*}$foo somemethod to call a non-mutating method, mut foo somemethod to call a mutating method
03:44:34 <Sgeo> Mutation requires a variable name just like incr does
03:46:01 <zzo38> Is that what determinism means? Wikipedia says: "Determinism is the philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do. The theory holds that the universe is utterly rational [...]"
03:46:49 <zzo38> O, there is also a list of the varieties
03:48:20 <zzo38> (Of course then you have to define free will too, I suppose.)
03:55:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: Friends don't let friends do yet another Tcl object system.
03:56:01 <Sgeo> I think the one I'm imagining sort of takes inspiration from both that transparent one + a bit of Rust (distinction between mutation and not)
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03:59:55 <Sgeo> Incidentally, is there a way to pass a variable name to a proc without forcing the proc to use upvar?
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04:00:07 <MDude> I mean, "previously existing causes" could be taken to invlude personal traits.
04:00:39 <zzo38> Yes, that is part of it. But even in case of nondeterminism, there is partial determinism.
04:01:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Don't think so honestly
04:01:50 <Sgeo> Suppose I could make my own proc-like that does it automatically, for convenience sake
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04:28:56 <Sgeo> Although Tcl has too many ways to represent anonymous functions, command prefixes remind me of currying which is nice
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06:19:41 <zzo38> The Free Hero Mesh file format, although it splits the puzzle set into four files rather than only one, the class definitions are stored in text format rather than binary, and the additional headers needed for each level and picture as well as the extra copy of the class and user message list required in the level file, it is still less than a third of the original file size.
06:22:29 <zzo38> I have now documented the format of the .xclass .level .solution files, although the .class file still is not yet documented.
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15:02:35 <zseri> https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/error-chain/pull/252
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15:43:00 <esowiki> [[Unfedern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57352&oldid=57323 * Zseri * (+23) 2018
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17:46:08 <rain1> there was a new BLC paper
17:46:16 <rain1> https://tromp.github.io/cl/LC.pdf
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17:53:15 <int-e> Ah, nice, though technically there's nothing really new in there...
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18:16:21 <int-e> rain1: also I'm wondering whether there's anything new in that paper since 2014 :)
18:20:42 <int-e> And at a glance (scrolling through two PDFs) the answer is "no".
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18:27:22 <arseniiv> zzo38: they finally settled on “rēvērā id nōn vīs” and “jam tibi dīxī tē id nōlle” resp.; wait a second and I tell you in how many ways it could be written
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18:31:26 <arseniiv> macrons (ā) here aren’t a classical diacritic to indicate vowel length, so you would possibly want one of the following things:
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18:34:17 <arseniiv> (a) to omit it altogether, (b) to replace it with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_(diacritic) (in that article, it’s also said that Í is written as a so-called long I, but you could write an apex anyway, as I am unsure if this form of I is in Unicode)
18:36:45 <arseniiv> also, with apices you could use a small caps lettering and J → I, U → V. If you don’t want to mark vowel lengths, it’s probably better to leave all as it is, only to capitalize first letters of phrases if you wish
18:38:12 <arseniiv> in these cases it should look AFAIR more like a classical inscription (apices, small caps, no JU) or a medieval/renaissance one (no apices)
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18:53:32 <zzo38> OK, but what are the meaning of those? I don't know Latin so well. Then I can add them into the proper places
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18:58:01 <zzo38> Thank you to figure it out though
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19:15:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unassignable-ABCDXYZ equivalency proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57353&oldid=11581 * Zseri * (+375)
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19:20:34 <arseniiv> zzo38: the first for the first in the text and the second for the second
19:21:01 <arseniiv> first on the outside of the box and second inside
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19:53:38 * oerjan sort of thought latin used fewer pronouns than that
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19:59:17 <zzo38> I don't know if it is or not, using fewer pronouns than that.
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20:01:30 <ais523> it's rare to use pronouns in Latin except for emphasis, as verbs have "implied" pronouns along with them
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20:01:37 <ais523> which they default to if no subject is reasonable
20:01:44 <ais523> I think you can use pronouns for the object reasonably enough
20:01:51 <ais523> *if no subject is given
20:05:39 <zzo38> What is the case in the Latin inscriptions mentioned in my story?
20:06:30 <oerjan> i suppose the only actual finite verb there is dixi, whose pronoun _is_ missing.
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20:08:08 <oerjan> the first sentence seems to have dropped the verb for to be instead of the pronoun (which may also be common)
20:08:48 <oerjan> oh well i'm no expert.
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20:23:43 <zzo38> Is there variant of OpenID which can be used without a HTML document or stuff like that, making it independent of the user interface? (How exactly you then identify will depend on the server working. Of course there can still be protocols, e.g. HTTP(S) or FTP or Gopher can be used to automatically download an information file.)
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22:56:39 <\oren\> https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/954088127500733730/34060460FB95C746608C9E2C3930A1CAA668E9D7/
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01:06:48 <zzo38> I think that the Dawkins scale is fail to consider the difference kind of ideas how is meant by "God" (and what is meant "exists" in this context, too) (including, that you can't know what it means).
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01:32:57 <arseniiv> I think general public definitely in average doesn’t know what it means by “exists”, and I see only two ways to define this word more or less unambiguously and usefully, both of which define existing relatively:
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01:36:31 <arseniiv> one is for “A exists in mathematical/physical theory B” (any modern physical theory contains some mathematical theory and “bindings” of it with experimentally checkable)
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01:47:27 <arseniiv> or not a physical one — any scientific theory admitting a precise definition (i. e. a mathematical one) somewhere inside in its workings;
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01:54:36 <arseniiv> another IIRC is for “(A exists in sc. theory B) upto accuracy C”, in this case it’s not atomic (and thus I think I have thought of something else originally) as it boils down to the first and “sc. theory is valid upto accuracy C”
01:57:57 <arseniiv> so we can say “electrons exist”, and behind the scenes it means we pick any theory which defines them (classical electrodynamics, quantum electrodynamics etc.) and mean such an accuracy level that that theory holds — in everyday life it’s usually a very low level (and a pure mathematical theory always holds if we’re all think it’s sound)
01:58:30 <arseniiv> or we can say “2 exists”, and it admits even more contexts where it’s true
01:59:59 <arseniiv> there could be contexts where it’s meaningless or indeterminate or false (e. g. if we define 2 ≡ 1 + 1, and the theory knows about 1 and +, then 2 exists; if we also want 2 > 1, then in some cases 2 doesn’t exist)
02:00:48 <arseniiv> these definitions are very useful IMO and they capture that we usually speak inside a vast context
02:02:11 <arseniiv> but I’m still unsure abouth the second. When I find my notes, I’ll write if it’s laid out right
02:03:10 <arseniiv> but, as about e. g. Dawkins, there are also useful existential _presumptions_
02:07:55 <arseniiv> they could be thought of as a propositions (maybe axioms) of some very general theories which is hard to place exactly in what domain of knowledge they are, but philosophers these days say they have figured this out. This metatheoretical stuff is a dim part and it’s not that essential to workings of science or everyday scientific worldview
02:10:26 <arseniiv> it’s not IMO that interesting as an existence. Also several formalizations of logic treat existence differently in details, so that underlying logic must be included in a mentioned theory, if one to be boring enough
02:13:27 <arseniiv> also these are cases when “is valid” for a theories is not enough, then there comes “is useful (to a consensus, or to someone like me)”
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02:18:15 <arseniiv> oops I’ve completely missed. I was defining what is truth, not existence. It’s more general
02:21:49 <arseniiv> so we have a mathematical truth (depending on a logic and a theory in it) or an experimental truth (depending on a precision). “Electron exists” will be the first, many experiments on this or that electrodynamics would give us tons of the second ones. Then we could combine truths of both kinds and say electrons exist with this accuracy
02:23:16 <arseniiv> of course it’s a first approximation, but it’s about right for everything ontological an average man like me will need
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02:26:26 <arseniiv> an important corollary to this definition of truth is that absolute truth is a non-entity. Any truth is relative, but of course not in a sense it is usually used by politicians or journalists
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03:05:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57354&oldid=57343 * Stasoid * (+155) /* Introductions */
03:06:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57355&oldid=8279 * Stasoid * (+141) /* Exit command in string mode */ new section
03:09:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57356&oldid=57355 * Stasoid * (+121) /* Name capitalization */ new section
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04:57:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SelfMod * New user account
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05:02:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57357&oldid=57354 * SelfMod * (+173) /* Introductions */ hi
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10:26:59 <esowiki> [[Puzzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57358&oldid=40488 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational Class */ Link TC
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19:29:24 <zzo38> Many C programs are designed to return a null pointer in case of error and something else if it is OK, but how common is it to return a null pointer if it is OK and not null if it is an error? Sometimes I have done that in some cases.
19:30:45 <shachaf> Go functions often do that with the second return value.
19:31:18 <shachaf> x, err := f(); if err != nil { ... }
19:31:46 <shachaf> It's not a pointer, but some glibc functions have an annoying idiom with errno that works similarly.
19:32:05 <shachaf> (errno = 0; x = f(); if (errno != 0) { ... })
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19:35:40 <zzo38> Some functions in Free Hero Mesh return null if OK or a constant error message if it is an error (although some errors are fatal and will cause the program to terminate instead).
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19:38:48 <oerjan> jix: you have some questions for you on Talk:Axo
19:39:25 * oerjan cannot recall em talking in years...
19:40:48 <zzo38> I don't know of any program language other than C and LLVM which has setjmp/longjmp, even though sometimes it can be good. Also many APIs of many programs can't be longjmp through since it might do something that it doesn't expect
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19:44:10 <oerjan> hasn't edited the wiki since 2006, yet is still here in the channel :P
19:44:27 <oerjan> i guess i can answer one of the questions.
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19:49:19 <esowiki> [[Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57359&oldid=42647 * Oerjan * (+14) Standardize capitalization to the (mostly) original
20:06:30 <oerjan> hm i think the other question was due to an edit error
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20:21:05 <esowiki> [[Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57360&oldid=57359 * Oerjan * (+35) grm, fix ancient rewriting error
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20:22:29 <zzo38> Why does SQLite have a sqlite3_result_blob64() function but no corresponding sqlite3_value_bytes64() function (at least according to the documentation)?
20:22:39 <oerjan> jix: never mind, i found the answers
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20:26:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57361&oldid=57356 * Oerjan * (+554) Fixed errors
20:27:20 <zzo38> Presumably the reason is due to the limit which is limited to 32-bits (having interfaces with 64-bit numbers can be useful in case you do not want to implement that by yourself), but it should probably be mentioned in the documentation of sqlite3_result_blob64() and so on that it is limited otherwise you might think the limit is longer if you do not check elsewhere.
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20:29:25 <zzo38> (Since it is already limited to one billion anyways.)
20:29:43 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57362&oldid=57080 * GDavid * (+569) /* Mathematics */
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20:32:43 <zzo38> (If a sqlite3_limit64() function is ever added, then a sqlite3_value_bytes64() function may be necessary.)
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20:48:03 <int-e> <3 null pointer dereferences.
20:49:29 <zzo38> Null pointer dereferences?
20:51:03 <int-e> or near enough: SEGV on unknown address 0x000000000008
20:52:14 <zzo38> What program is that?
20:55:14 <int-e> Ar maybe address sanitizer is playing tricks on me. It's my own program but the error is thrown in a library.
20:55:46 <esowiki> [[Puzzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57363&oldid=57358 * Oerjan * (+52) /* Overview */ Use horizontal space instead of vertical
20:56:11 * oerjan vaguely wonders if someone changed it the opposite way before
20:56:58 <zzo38> Sometimes that happens if you pass improper arguments to the library.
20:57:43 <int-e> zzo38: well I found my real mistake and address santizer is still complaining. so I guess that interacts badly with the library (it's an OpenCL thing)
20:58:34 <zzo38> Sometimes the mistake is actually in the library; it is not always your own mistake.
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21:02:23 <int-e> It's somewhat interesting... the Intel OpenCL runtime reads from the zero page, and the nvidia one doesn't even show up to the party, if I enable the address sanitizer.
21:04:48 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1038537/
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21:12:00 <int-e> cute, intel's vendor id is 0x8086
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21:30:09 <zzo38> How common is programs that use SQLite databases also allowing the user to use SQL to write extensions for the program?
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21:53:30 <Sgeo> shachaf, did you real latest OOTS book?
22:12:38 <shachaf> I'm waiting to order the The Complete Olist of the Stick book
22:12:46 <shachaf> Which is a shame because it'll probably never be released?
22:18:54 <int-e> . o O ( just put $1 into a bank account so you'll be able to pay for it when it is released )
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22:29:30 <int-e> zzo38: if you care, https://github.com/google/sanitizers/issues/629 has some information relevant to why the nvidia platform "disappears" with address sanitizer.
22:30:28 <int-e> (and indeed it doesn't do that if I use ASAN_OPTIONS=protect_shadow_gap=0)
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22:59:43 <esowiki> [[TRAVEL 33]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57364 * GDavid * (+3624) Created page with "TRAVEL 33 is an esolang invented by [[User:GDavid]]. It's capable of sending information in time, even backwards therefore it's uncomputable.<br /> It got it's name from the f..."
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23:08:02 <zzo38> Is anyone on here willing to help to write the picture editor program for use with Free Hero Mesh? It should not use any libraries other than those used by Free Hero Mesh itself, ideally, but maybe there is other idea
23:15:08 <zzo38> Here is a wiki and source repository: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/wcontent The file format for the pictures is documented, and you can also look at the source codes. You can also add feature requests, bug reports, add more documentation if you want to, etc. So far I wrote all of it by myself, and expect I will continue to write most of it, but I also accept contributions if there are any.
23:19:42 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh is a program to make puzzle games.
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23:26:36 <zzo38> Are all of the documentation of the file formats sense or is something difficult to understand?
23:30:07 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh is designed for puzzle games played on a rectangular grid (no larger than 64x64), without any randomness or any timing; it is purely turn-based. Hidden information is partially supported for classes with the CF_QUIZ flag set, although it is recommended not to hide information.
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23:42:32 <int-e> @google "bio-integrity metadata"
23:42:33 <lambdabot> https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9497271/
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00:48:59 <rain1> this heromesh thing sounds awesome
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01:03:31 <zzo38> rain1: Did you look at the documents/source-codes?
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01:04:41 <rain1> no just ruod your description here
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03:39:43 <esowiki> [[User:Jix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57365&oldid=8002 * Jix * (-30)
03:41:39 <esowiki> [[Jannis Harder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57366&oldid=53682 * Jix * (-269) Remove seriously outdated information, update homepage link
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06:21:24 <esowiki> [[Surface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57367&oldid=32526 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken dropbox link
06:21:52 <esowiki> [[M-code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57368&oldid=23532 * Madk * (+20)
06:22:32 <esowiki> [[Grin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57369&oldid=44990 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link
06:23:04 <esowiki> [[Tri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57370&oldid=23607 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link
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06:26:00 <esowiki> [[Cardinal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57371&oldid=54016 * Madk * (+102) Add mirror for original file
06:26:35 <esowiki> [[Fit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57372&oldid=23552 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken download link
06:27:18 <esowiki> [[Fit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57373&oldid=57372 * Madk * (+0)
06:27:29 <esowiki> [[Staq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57374&oldid=39382 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken download link
06:28:05 <esowiki> [[PoGo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57375&oldid=37520 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken download link
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06:29:00 <esowiki> [[D1ffe7e45e]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57376&oldid=23528 * Madk * (+5) Fx broken download link
06:34:05 <esowiki> [[Minimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57377&oldid=54603 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link
06:35:19 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57378&oldid=49753 * Madk * (+22) Fix broken download link
06:35:49 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57379&oldid=57378 * Madk * (-15)
06:36:47 <esowiki> [[BrainCursion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57380&oldid=40331 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link
06:37:27 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57381&oldid=18185 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link
06:38:04 <esowiki> [[BF-PDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57382&oldid=46405 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link
06:38:29 <esowiki> [[BF-PDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57383&oldid=57382 * Madk * (-13) Remove {{deadlink}}
06:40:46 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57384&oldid=57379 * Madk * (+13) Explain difference between download links
06:47:36 <esowiki> [[User:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57385&oldid=32519 * Madk * (+141)
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11:16:48 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57386&oldid=57312 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Updated the header
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11:29:00 <Taneb> I wonder if the structure "monoid that isn't a submonoid of any group" has any interesting properties
11:29:13 <Taneb> (e.g. booleans with the operation "or" and identity false)
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15:55:05 <int-e> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancellative_semigroup#Embeddability_in_groups
15:55:15 <oerjan> <Taneb> I wonder if the structure "monoid that isn't a submonoid of any group" has any interesting properties <-- apparently it's complicated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancellative_semigroup#Embeddability_in_groups
15:55:32 <Taneb> You two are very synchronized today
15:55:58 <oerjan> Taneb: well the sample size is a bit low
15:58:23 <oerjan> also, GG: things could get really ugly if wooster catches on...
15:58:48 <Taneb> I think we're going to find some interesting things about Higgs in this arc
15:58:51 <oerjan> so far he's been pretty oblivious for a top agent
15:59:02 <Taneb> oerjan: it's possible he already knows
15:59:29 <oerjan> that seems like the safest option.
15:59:30 <Taneb> They were both with Klaus Wulfenbach for a decent while
15:59:53 <oerjan> yes, although i have not seen them canonically in the same spot, i looked
16:00:32 <Taneb> Where was Wooster during the Castle Heterodyne mega-arc?
16:00:33 <oerjan> wooster never entered castle heterodyne, i think he left the city before they got out.
16:00:49 <Taneb> Higgs was introduced quite late in that arc
16:00:55 <oerjan> he went to reveal things to the jäger generals
16:01:39 <oerjan> although they were both interacting with the jägers during the years agatha was trapped
16:01:56 <oerjan> but they may still never have actually met.
16:02:36 <oerjan> (higgs obviously visited zeetha who lived with the jägers, and wooster was assigned to them)
16:04:06 <oerjan> i don't think they were with klaus/gil at the same time.
16:05:12 <oerjan> higgs only showed up when klaus got hurt and hospitalized, and gil had sent wooster away just before that
16:05:22 <Taneb> How long would it take for a fresh recruit to become Airman, Third Class?
16:09:37 <oerjan> well he wouldn't be really noticeable during that time, and he may not have been much on castle wulfenbach
16:12:11 <jix> oerjan: not active here or on the wiki anymore, but I still see highlights (if I'm not asleep)
16:13:37 <Taneb> oerjan: one mystery is, was Higgs an entity before Mechanicsburg, or was he talent-scouted (by Albia?) afterwards?
16:15:37 <jix> Taneb: an interesting class of semigroups (or monoids) that cannot be embeded in a group should be semilattices (or bounded semilattices)
16:19:59 <jix> if you assume idempotency (as in semilattices) and cancellation (as needed to embed in a group) you get that every element is the identity element, so you cannot have both (apart from the trivial group)
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16:42:05 <oerjan> Taneb: it does seem to stretch logic a bit that higgs could stay close to gil _and_ keep a british navy job at the same time...
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16:52:12 <wob_jonas> shachaf, int-e: tom7 posted a blog post on his radar about his new game, and I replied there with my experiences.
17:02:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re SQLITE "sqlite3_result_blob64() function but but no corresponding sqlite3_value_bytes64() function", there's no sqlite3_value_bytes function either.
17:02:36 <shachaf> wob_jonas: whoa whoa whoa, you're mentioning me by name many times
17:03:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: see https://sqlite.org/c3ref/result_blob.html
17:03:33 <wob_jonas> those and https://sqlite.org/c3ref/result_subtype.html are the only documented functions starting with sqlite3_result_
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17:03:57 <wob_jonas> shachaf: is that a problem? tom7 already knows your infamy
17:05:13 <wob_jonas> but if it's a problem, I can write to tom7 and ask to redact your name
17:09:15 <shachaf> I guess everything is logged anyway.
17:09:36 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57387&oldid=57362 * GDavid * (+502) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
17:09:48 <wob_jonas> shachaf: infamy in that you care about esoteric languages and tom7's esoteric projects
17:11:42 <shachaf> I don't think I've made it onto the Tom 7 radar before
17:14:06 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57388&oldid=57387 * GDavid * (+73) /* Derivative Ideas */
17:17:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: perhaps no, but https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-04-02.html "<shachaf> I made a small comment on the implementation of |, which apparently some other people made as well."
17:18:53 <shachaf> Oh, that's true, I sent a twit once.
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18:06:11 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57389&oldid=57388 * GDavid * (+379) /* Based on dimensions */
18:12:42 <int-e> did it become a character trait?
18:19:16 <int-e> wob_jonas: shachaf talked about twits
18:20:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, by the way. Given how much the title screen helped, I only grepped the English frequency word list once, for decoding "cylinder" from "c..in.er"
18:21:33 <wob_jonas> The only other words that caused any trouble were "ovoposit" and "tale", but I didn't grep for them.
18:23:39 <wob_jonas> "tale" because I assumed for a short time that it was a typo for "take", since you told me there's a typo, but testing its behavior made it clear that it had to be "talk"
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18:25:00 <\oren\> In france, 80 is the weed number
18:38:22 <int-e> @tell wob_jonas oh did you miss the difference between 'e' and 'k' in "running out of space"? it's subtle, but it's there.
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19:41:51 <wob_jonas> int-e: wtf, it's "talk" not "tale" even in the compo version. but I transcribed it wrong on my sheet of paper, and only looked at that after.
19:41:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: I knew there was a difference, because "look" has the "k", and "look" was one of the earliest words I saw
19:42:01 <wob_jonas> int-e: but then I checked and double checked my paper, and my paper had the alien symbol for "e"
19:42:52 <wob_jonas> int-e: it must be that, because I trust tom7's integrity in this particular case and I don't think he fixed that annoying typo in the compo version of the game
19:43:58 <wob_jonas> and I was trying to see a typo because shachaf told me there was a typo in that line and I didn't know the third word was a typo
19:44:45 <int-e> "Some day when I have a solid week to spare, I'd like to make a complete game in this style."
19:47:25 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah, that's not an enforcable promise, but tom7 might even be crazy enough to do it.
19:49:40 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I didn't tell you that.
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19:51:15 <wob_jonas> int-e: and it's because of the shape of "e" and "k" that the closing credits says "tom 7" instead of "tom7", because "tom7" could be confused with "tome".
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19:55:31 <wob_jonas> oh sorry. that was int-e. he told me there was a typo.
19:55:31 <wob_jonas> "how many typos are there? it's kind of embarrassing that there's one in one of the commands :)" => well, there was "please make yourself", but none other I think
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20:01:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: that one wasn't a typo, it just got cut off
20:02:05 <int-e> (and it didn't get cut off for me, somehow...)
20:08:59 <wob_jonas> int-e: let me re-check that in the compo version
20:08:59 <wob_jonas> Now the compo says "Please make yourself at home!" too. Strange.
20:08:59 <wob_jonas> But I checked that multiple times!
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20:12:38 <wob_jonas> if you talk to Kirk once you already have the energy weapon, the screen scrolls differently, and it does get cut off and say "Please make yourself"
20:12:58 <wob_jonas> Or maybe it's not the energy weapon that matters but just how you scroll the screen
20:13:45 <wob_jonas> Depending on how you scroll it, you can make it say "Please make yourself at" too
20:14:23 <wob_jonas> and "Please make yourself at ho" with a single column from the m visible
20:15:07 <wob_jonas> It's just like other cases when a message appears in the wrong place
20:17:51 <esowiki> [[Nestplate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57390 * GDavid * (+1543) Created page with "Nestplate (from the combination of the words nest and template) is a language invented by [[User:GDavid]] to solve the problem that C++ templates are sometimes too readable. I..."
20:18:27 <esowiki> [[User:GDavid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57391&oldid=57042 * GDavid * (+33)
20:19:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57392&oldid=57228 * GDavid * (+16) /* T */
20:20:22 <wob_jonas> oh! There's a second solution for the tetris puzzle that I hadn't noticed before
20:20:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57393&oldid=57392 * GDavid * (+16) /* N */
20:20:43 <wob_jonas> The tool is in different columns in them
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20:48:52 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57394&oldid=57389 * GDavid * (+312) /* Looks Like */
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04:45:07 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57395&oldid=56583 * Jabutosama * (+145) /* General languages */ added wismaster
05:11:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xylochoron * New user account
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05:43:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57396&oldid=57357 * Xylochoron * (+116) /* Introductions */
05:46:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57397&oldid=57396 * Xylochoron * (+153) /* Introductions */
05:47:11 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57398&oldid=57393 * Xylochoron * (+11) /* D */
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06:27:19 <esowiki> [[D'ni]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57399 * Xylochoron * (+3252) Created page
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08:26:15 <wob_jonas> Can we dispell the +R channel flag now perhaps?
08:27:04 <wob_jonas> ``` echo "$[$(fromroman XCVIII) + 1]"
08:27:21 <Taneb> wob_jonas: still getting spam in another channel
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09:21:28 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57400&oldid=57394 * GDavid * (+62) /* Derivative Ideas */
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10:04:03 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57401&oldid=57400 * GDavid * (+1174) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
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10:46:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international tarpaulin for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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10:48:45 * oerjan was going to point out the channel isn't technically +R
10:49:20 <Taneb> I wonder if any server uses the HTTP 418 status code as "intended"
10:58:26 <oerjan> that doesn't seem quite right.
10:58:36 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/
10:59:50 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/
11:00:32 <oerjan> `sled bin/toroman//s,.XLCDM,DM/XLCDMEE,
11:00:35 <HackEso> bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/
11:02:47 <int-e> `toroman --clockface 4
11:03:17 <oerjan> `sled bin/toroman//s,print,$_="Number too large" if /E/;,
11:03:18 <HackEso> bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];$_="Number too large" if /E/; k,$/
11:03:34 <oerjan> `sled bin/toroman//s,print,$_="Number too large" if /E/;print,
11:03:35 <HackEso> bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];$_="Number too large" if /E/;print k,$/
11:04:56 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/
11:08:07 <oerjan> ok i don't understand how that works.
11:08:35 <oerjan> so for now it'll just print E for too large numbers.
11:21:20 <oerjan> `sled bin/toroman//s,g;,g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large;/,
11:21:21 <HackEso> bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large;/$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/
11:21:46 <oerjan> `sled bin/toroman//s,g;,g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;,
11:21:47 <HackEso> bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/
11:21:53 <HackEso> syntax error at /hackenv/bin/toroman line 2, near "$t~" \ No comma allowed after filehandle at /hackenv/bin/toroman line 2.
11:23:21 <oerjan> `sled bin/toroman//s,g;,g;$t=~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;,
11:23:22 <HackEso> bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t=~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/
11:24:54 <oerjan> . o O ( note to self: don't say "stop spamming" just before starting HackEso coding )
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11:36:05 <int-e> I still find the =~ very confusing... my first instinct is to use ~=.
11:36:30 <HackEso> 910) <RodgerTheGreat> an ieee-754 double does not have enough granular precision to express how little I care \ 643) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can't design a reliable Monopoly machine out of chocolate doesn't mean nobody else can.
11:37:30 <int-e> @google "monopoly machine"
11:37:30 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9-NIN6Fpls
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11:57:04 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57402 * A * (+701) New idea.
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12:11:55 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57403&oldid=57402 * A * (+338) comments
12:12:40 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57404&oldid=57403 * A * (+23)
12:23:47 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57405&oldid=57404 * A * (+378)
12:28:57 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57406&oldid=57405 * A * (+288)
12:33:16 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57407&oldid=57406 * A * (+176)
12:38:42 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57408&oldid=57407 * A * (+221) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */
12:40:16 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57409&oldid=57408 * A * (+0) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */
12:43:57 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57410&oldid=57409 * A * (+196) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */
12:51:39 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57411&oldid=57410 * A * (+8) I think I sound too rude.
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14:37:50 <esowiki> [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57412&oldid=53269 * Kaa-kun * (+17)
14:46:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57413&oldid=46851 * Kaa-kun * (+528) Quick before I merge with the other bots!
14:47:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57414&oldid=57413 * Kaa-kun * (-2) What the heck happened?
14:49:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57415&oldid=57414 * Kaa-kun * (-53) /* Last HalfOr Is It? */
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15:45:16 <wob_jonas> oerjan: toroman is based on my old golf code. it is only guaranteed to work for valid input, that is, integers in 1..3999 inclusive. on other integers, it might give a stupid result, but it won't have bad side effects
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15:59:20 <HackEso> olist 1136: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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16:39:33 <Shragazord> got any recommendations esolang for a first time? one which is interesting and wont make me want to kill myself?
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16:49:02 <Taneb> Shragazord: I quite like Piet, personally
16:49:31 <Taneb> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
16:52:11 <Taneb> It was actually the first programming language full stop I ever learnt!
16:55:07 <Taneb> I was... eleven or twelve, I think
16:55:51 <Taneb> And now I work for a company that does Haskell, circuit design, and neural networks, all at once, so go figure
16:56:40 <shachaf> Is it artificial neural networks or the real thing?
16:57:00 <Taneb> The former, I'm afraid
17:06:14 <HackEso> olist 0: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:07:39 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
17:11:32 <HackEso> olist 1137: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:13:24 <HackEso> Me is a proud member of the tEaM.
17:13:47 <HackEso> `help [<command>] gives HackEgo's default help message, or help for a specific command. Or currently possibly some other wisdom.
17:18:11 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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17:43:35 <Taneb> So, I've got a ridiculous project in mind
17:43:56 <Taneb> I've just ordered a receipt printer
17:44:28 <Taneb> I'm going to try to use it as a computer terminal
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19:51:46 <wob_jonas> zseri_: I think you mean o strip number 1136.
19:52:35 <wob_jonas> I know some people can see tomorrow's qwantz strip, but I'm quite sure it's literally impossible in the case of o. The Giant has said that he doesn't use a buffer, it wouldn't work for him, he posts any strip when it's complete.
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19:53:54 <int-e> there might be telepaths
19:54:10 <int-e> precogs, I guess, is the next one
19:54:15 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but they shouldn't ring the obell early
19:54:36 <HackEso> 682) <elliott> @more <elliott> @more <elliott> @more <elliott> @more <elliott> @more <elliott> @more <elliott> @more <elliott> :(
19:54:50 <wob_jonas> the obell is what you ring with the `olist command
19:55:05 <int-e> wob_jonas: yeah I did get that
19:55:13 <wob_jonas> go and help the Giant instead by downloading all the strips from the future and sending them to him so he can draw them more easily.
19:55:29 <wob_jonas> I think I had a wisdom for it, but deleted it when I deleted my most silly wisdoms
19:55:44 <int-e> I just don't care about oots.
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20:07:49 <HackEso> 59) <oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program
20:08:14 <int-e> that's... pretty good
20:08:53 <myname> you could make a language out of that
20:09:43 <myname> the more you execute a lie of code, the more it needs to be indented
20:10:19 <wob_jonas> we'd automate that with profile-guided indentation
20:10:56 <wob_jonas> and you can put short loops in one line to inline them
20:11:19 <wob_jonas> would be heaven for those people who keep asking "how can I do ... in one line?" on perl forums
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20:11:50 <myname> just don't allow more than one command per line
20:12:18 <wob_jonas> oh, like the good old 60's and 70's?
20:12:42 <int-e> . o O ( style rule 0) always indent newlines all the way to the end of the line )
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00:15:58 <shachaf> "This is perhaps not the answer you are looking for, but it is indeed a programming language (it is Turing complete)"
00:16:24 <shachaf> I think Turing completeness is neither sufficient or necessary for something to be a programming language.
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02:32:37 <Sgeo_> Are .sid files turing complete? I think they may be turing complete
02:40:29 <Sgeo_> They do contain 6502 machine code. I should totally make an infinite length one
02:41:32 <shachaf> Machine code is usually not TC.
02:46:21 <pikhq> Though, by the same line of reasoning nor is C.
02:46:53 <pikhq> Just an FSM with a fairly large state.
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02:51:53 <pikhq> Not that it helps you much. Sufficiently large state makes things like a halting predicate practically infeasible even if they are theoretically permissible.
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02:55:53 <shachaf> I was wondering recently how much of the algorithmic reasoning people do doesn't really make sense in the presence of even a large upper bound.
03:19:57 <Sgeo_> I wonder if 6510 machine code could be considered turing complete if you put assumptions on what address 0 and 1 do (e.g. maybe you could send a signal to switch RAM out in a tape-like fashion)
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03:20:32 <Sgeo_> Or 6502 + special address in memory for shenanigans like that
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03:58:30 <Hooloovo0> it's not too difficult to extend the 6502 to arbitrary bit-lengths, I think
03:58:51 <Hooloovo0> well, might get silly after a bit, but I've worked with a 24-bit version a bit
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06:22:04 <Sgeo> Minima.sid by Wyndex seems to play forever
06:22:31 <Sgeo> STIL gives a shorter duration though. If someone were to make a song that infinitely varies.. hmm
06:23:58 <Sgeo> (STIL = text file describing all the music in HVSC (High Voltage SID Collection))
06:28:24 <Sgeo> Oh huh STIL isnt where players get song lenght, there's a Songlengths.txt
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12:45:36 <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm going to try to use it as a computer terminal <-- now you're reminding me of when _i_ was about twelve...
12:46:03 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57416&oldid=57351 * YamTokWae * (+56)
12:46:16 <Taneb> oerjan: the difference, I expect, is I have a full time job
12:46:22 <oerjan> and my dad brought home a printer with modem and phoned a mainframe
12:46:43 <Taneb> So I can afford all the receipt printer rolls I want
12:46:56 <Taneb> Anyway continue your story
12:47:24 <Taneb> I thought you were going to go somewhere different when I started writing my result
12:47:29 <oerjan> hm my father used to bring home used scrolls of printing paper for me to write on
12:48:44 <oerjan> this was a printer normally used for logging events at the telecom building
12:48:55 <oerjan> well they had several of them, iirc
12:49:27 <oerjan> anyway, he phoned it up and we tried out Sintran BASIC
12:50:12 <oerjan> and this was only about the second time i'd used a computer, the first time was when on holiday and someone had an Apple something.
12:50:28 <oerjan> back in approximately 1982
12:51:04 <oerjan> i'd already learned BASIC from reading a book
12:52:46 <oerjan> i think i wrote some programs on that scratch paper, without a computer :)
12:53:04 <oerjan> complex arithmetic iirc
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12:54:37 <rain1> he got 7000 stars for implementing certificate delivery in BASH https://github.com/Neilpang/acme.sh
13:04:25 * int-e is still appalled by that repo
13:04:39 <rain1> i think it counts as esoprogramming
13:05:45 <int-e> full of gems like... if [ -f "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" ]; then . "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" fi
13:05:58 <int-e> (aka configuration file parsing in bash)
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13:32:09 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57417&oldid=57416 * YamTokWae * (+1883) Finally done!
13:34:35 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+6245) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Pxem |paradigms= |author= |year=[[:Category:2008|2008]] |typesys= |memsys= |dimensions= |class= |refimpl= |majorimpl= |dialects= |influence= |in..."
13:35:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57419&oldid=57398 * YamTokWae * (+11) /* P */ Pxem added!
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13:44:15 <wob_jonas> Asimov, or whoever was the editor of the short story "Mother Earth", has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian": "https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v43n03_1949-05_cape1736#page/n58/mode/1up" . Don't you just love the English language and its uniformity?
13:45:35 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57420&oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+496)
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13:59:55 <arseniiv> someone reads Tom Siddel’s GC here?
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14:05:11 <arseniiv> has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian"> interesting. Could it be the case it was pronounced as a[nɪ]storian by him? I seem to hear [h] elides here and there in some cases
14:06:55 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: there's a very varied amount of initial h-dropping in various English dialect. I've asked about it previously in #esoteric, and some people pronounce initial h in every word, some drop it in lot of words.
14:11:57 <wob_jonas> I only drop English initial h in "hour, honest, honesty, honored, honorable" and possibly in "herb, heir, heirloom" (I'm undecided about those rare words)
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14:21:37 <Taneb> I pronounce the h in herb but not in heir or heirloom
14:21:43 <Taneb> But then again I pronounce the b in debt
14:25:50 <wob_jonas> Taneb: how about all the other h words? "have, he, his, her, here, how, hand, happen, head, hear, hear, help, high, hold, home, house, half, happy, hard, health, heart, hey, himself, history, hit, hope, hour, however, human, hair, handle, hang, hate, heat, heavy, hell, herself, hi, hide, hospital, hot, hotel, huge, hundred, hurt, husband",
14:27:02 <FireFly> is that an exhaustive list of h words?
14:27:21 <wob_jonas> "hall, hardly, healthy, hello, hill, hire, historical, hole, holyday, honest, honey, honor, horse, host, housing, huh, hunt", and most importantly, the original example "historian"
14:27:30 <Taneb> wob_jonas: hour is the only one in that first list
14:27:46 <Taneb> honest, honor in the second list
14:27:53 <Taneb> I pronouce the h in historian
14:28:09 <Taneb> (In particular I would say "she is a historian", not "she is an historian")
14:29:01 <Taneb> But it used to be the rule at "an" went before a word beginning with "h" in all cases
14:29:52 <wob_jonas> further, "ha, habit, harm, hat, heal, heaven, height, helping, hero, highlight, highway, hip, historic, holy, hook, horrible, household, hug, hungry",
14:29:58 <Taneb> (for reference I'm a native speaker from the north-east of England with one Australian parent)
14:30:15 <Taneb> wob_jonas: none of those do I drop the h
14:31:31 <wob_jonas> and now we're getting the uncommon ones: "habitat, halfway, hallway, halt, hammer, handsome, harbor, hardware, harmony, harsh, harvest, haul, haunt, headache, headline, headquarter, healthcare, heel, helicopter, helmet, hence, herb, herd, heritage, hesitate, hike, hint, Hispanic, holder, homeland, homework, hop, horizon, hormone, horn, horror, host
14:31:31 <wob_jonas> age, hostile, humanity, humor, hunter, hurricane, hypothesis"
14:32:45 <wob_jonas> I'm actually unsure about "heritage" too
14:33:48 <wob_jonas> Taneb: right. much of my pronunciation comes from the times when outside of English-speaking countries, language courses teached received pronunciation.
14:34:16 <Taneb> I pronounce the h in all of that last list as well
14:34:40 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I don't think of myself having much of a dialect and then I realise that I really do
14:35:08 <Taneb> I just hear enough not-English people that a lot of English accents sound quite similar to me
14:35:20 <wob_jonas> Taneb: with which vowel do you pronounce "can't dance"?
14:36:52 <Taneb> I don't know the IPA, but a long a, almost "ar" for "can't", and a short a for "dance"
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14:38:13 <Taneb> If you remind me about nine tonight BST, I'll send you a recording
14:38:19 <Taneb> (going to the cinema after work)
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14:39:26 <wob_jonas> Taneb: do you pronounce them with the first vowel of "father", or the vowl of "cat", or neither?
14:40:17 <Taneb> can't and father are similar
14:40:29 <Taneb> cat and dance are very slightly different?
14:40:32 <wob_jonas> recording doesn't help much alone, because it's only all the vowels in relation that are important, not the individual realziations
14:41:03 <HackEso> can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast
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14:41:10 <Taneb> I think I kind of cut the vowel short in dance but not in cat?
14:42:04 <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English
14:42:17 <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
14:44:11 <wob_jonas> (Sorry, I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's popsci book, and he makes it like God created the earliest particles, then someone else who sounds like Morgoth created the Higgs-boson in an attempt to ruin the perfect symmetry of God's creation,
14:45:25 <wob_jonas> but then when God asked Morgoth why he did that, Morgoth lied that he only did it to make the world richer, and God knew that while Morgoth thinks it's a lie, it's actually true, because Morgoth could do nothing that He didn't already anticipate, and the Higgs boson actually makes the world complicated but beautiful in a way that nobody but God him
14:45:39 <wob_jonas> and that's how the stars and physicists were born.)
14:47:32 <wob_jonas> (So now if the physicists are working hard enough to defeat the Higgs-boson, then they will see it, and God lets them see it and the original simple beauty behind it too and how the two together allowed to make nucleuses and stars and physicists to get created.)
14:53:29 <wob_jonas> (Some of that is what I'm imagining into the book though, not what Lenderman actually wrote.)
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15:29:17 <arseniiv> is that an exhaustive list of h words? => lol
15:30:19 <wob_jonas> it's actually a representative list from a reputable source
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15:34:10 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English // must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism => IMO it should go to the quotes :D
15:34:28 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
15:35:33 <ep100> have any of you used the Java/Scala parsing library Parboiled? any thoughts?
15:35:47 <HackEso> Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
15:36:02 <HackEso> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat
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15:38:43 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
15:39:28 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I'm not here, and I can't be trusted with HackEso anyway, but if you're still here and could guide arseniiv in using HackEso, that would be great
15:39:57 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: basically you can just say `addquote <nick> message <nick> message
15:40:16 <wob_jonas> but make sure the quote is worthy to keep without context, or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context
15:40:44 <wob_jonas> it's an art rather than a science, and I'm not very good at it, although there are some quotes I added, and some I said
15:40:50 <arseniiv> `addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
15:40:52 <HackEso> 1327) <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
15:41:06 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I hope I made it right and worthy :)
15:41:27 <arseniiv> I do believe quoting is an art, too, yeah
15:43:22 <wob_jonas> oerjan: hackeso doesn't reply to my private messages. is this deliberate?
15:43:27 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes
15:44:14 <arseniiv> or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context => totally agree. I have seen many quotes in the wild, which were concluded by an author’s reaction. It’s weird and uncomfortable
15:45:43 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: ftr HackEso responds me to "`quote"
15:45:56 <HackEso> desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.
15:46:18 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\000" quotes
15:46:19 <HackEso> 11610 <arseniiv> addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism.11589 <oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter.11585 <oerjan> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft.11580 <alercah> addquote
15:46:36 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | perl -we ""
15:46:41 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes
15:46:42 <HackEso> 11610 <arseniiv> addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism \ 11589 <oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 <oerjan> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580 <alercah> ad
15:47:22 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>"
15:47:43 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*erjan[^>]*>"
15:47:58 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*erjan[^>]*>"
15:47:59 <HackEso> 11589 <oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 <oerjan> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11551 <oerjan> addquote <shachaf> Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old <Taneb> shachaf, not at all <Taneb> I would never suggest that it\'s getting slightly old \ 11346
15:48:06 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>"
15:48:08 <HackEso> 11439 <wob_jonas> addquote <ais523> oh, we also need a Donate effect <ais523> Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we\'ll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes \ 10204 <b_jonas> addquote <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI \ 9620 <b_jonas> addquote <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually u
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15:48:42 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+3
15:48:43 <HackEso> 9620 <b_jonas> addquote <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L\xe2\x88\x9e metric (they can go eight ways) \ 9236 <b_jonas> addquote <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps \ 9234 <b_jonas> addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
15:49:12 <wob_jonas> HackEso not trusting me enough to respond in private message is probably a feature, not a bug
15:49:58 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+5
15:49:59 <HackEso> 9234 <b_jonas> addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
15:50:11 <wob_jonas> after that was when they taught me about `? quoteformat
15:50:32 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -c 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes
15:50:33 <HackEso> hg log: option -c not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options ([+] can be repeated): \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies show copied files \ -k --keyword TEXT [+] do case-insensitive search for a given text
15:50:57 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -r 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes
15:50:58 <HackEso> 9235 <ais523> delquote 1291
15:51:07 <wob_jonas> sorry, -c would be the correct option for svn
15:53:38 <HackEso> 1295) <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways)
15:53:52 <HackEso> 1200) <b_jonas> oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original \ 1221) <b_jonas> fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? <fungot> b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) <b_jonas> shachaf: different notation. -o
15:54:19 <HackEso> 1221) <b_jonas> fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? <fungot> b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) <b_jonas> shachaf: different notation. -o is logical or in find, but it's linear implication in linear logic \ 1269) <b_jonas> (make is an esoteric language) <prooftechnique> b_jonas: Most esolangs I've seen have more comprehensive docs than make \ 1273) <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping
15:55:03 <HackEso> 1273) <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. \ 1318) <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth \ 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \
15:55:17 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 1327) <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
15:56:02 <wob_jonas> I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad?
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15:58:25 <arseniiv> I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? => maybe not
16:02:44 <arseniiv> (I mean it could be incomparable to both)
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17:08:22 <ais523> suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts (I'm thinking of making a conlang-inspired esolang and there are good reasons for it to need an alphabet of its own)
17:08:54 <ais523> what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays
17:09:24 <ais523> presumably the characters would be in a private-use area somewher?
17:16:32 <bradcomp> Can you maybe just fork an Open Source font to get a template, and then just completely rework the typeface to be what you want?
17:17:30 <ais523> the characters in this are intentionally very simple and line-segmenty, though
17:17:34 <ais523> so I think I'd want something much simpler than most fonts
17:17:53 <ais523> a simple vector font would likely be enough, no hinting (perhaps it'd benefit from some kerning)
17:19:03 <arseniiv> ais523: for font creation I suppose you could use something like glyphr studio, last time I seen it was JS-based HTML thingie and it was able to export to some of usual font formats
17:19:22 <arseniiv> I have it installed but I haven’t played with it
17:19:37 <arseniiv> it uses Unicode as an encoding
17:19:55 <ais523> hmm, "JS-based HTML thingie" seems fairly discouraging, but I guess it might be usable
17:19:59 <bradcomp> arseniiv that looks really cool!
17:20:16 <arseniiv> ais523: bradcomp: it should be able to do kerning AFAIR
17:20:50 <arseniiv> also Inkscape can create SVG fonts but I think its UI for it is way messier
17:22:17 <ais523> "up to U+FFFF", ugh, that could be a bit of a problem; the private use area is getting fairly crowded already
17:22:55 <ais523> I don't even know which bits won't clash with other peoples' little-used languages
17:25:03 <arseniiv> why not make a standard latinization of your conlang and use characters from that to represent characters of an actual conscript in the font? Ligatures should make for conscript’s interesting traits like custom diactiric behavior, vowel carriers and like
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17:26:18 <arseniiv> then if one uses this special font, it looks nice, and if one uses an unaware font, it is magically a transcription
17:27:13 <ais523> arseniiv: well one feature of this is that it doesn't really correspond to English in any real way
17:27:26 <ais523> it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet, come to think of it, although it's not quite the same as that either
17:27:54 <ais523> I guess I could replace characters from an /actual/ syllabary, assuming it was large enough
17:32:45 <arseniiv> you could use font ligatures to make e. g. gu gi ga gen ger tu ti ta correspond to separate glyphs than glyphs for g, t, u, i etc.
17:33:18 <arseniiv> I hope ligaturing in fonts is advanced enough
17:34:52 <ais523> I can't work on it right now
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17:35:05 <ais523> I wasn't considering a pronunciation for it up to this point
17:35:09 <ais523> although I guess having one might be useful
17:35:20 <ais523> the original concept was entirely as a written language
17:35:24 <ais523> you might as well try to pronounce brainfuck
17:35:46 <ais523> hmm, there surely must be a brainfuck derivative intended to be pronounceable, there's a brainfuck derivative for basically everything
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17:45:43 <arseniiv> ais523: the original concept was entirely as a written language => ah I see. If there would be less than ~30 glyphs, it could have been passed for a consonantal alphabet, but as you’ve said it’s meant to be a syllabary, then it probably has much more
17:46:01 <ais523> well, it's a sort of compositional syllabary
17:46:23 <ais523> each character has two components that are orthogonal to each other
17:46:33 <ais523> treating it as a spoken language, I guess you'd interpret that as consonant/vowel
17:47:19 <arseniiv> something like abugida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida then
17:47:47 <ais523> yes, I think an abugida is the right term
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20:53:31 <oren> why is freenode so buggy lately
20:54:29 <oren> int-e: today SASL was timing out every time for several hours
20:54:43 <ais523> they're probably making a lot of code changes while trying to fend off the spambot attack
20:54:48 <int-e> "We are experiencing issues with services and SASL. If you can't connect, try to temporarily disable SASL"
20:55:00 <int-e> oren: that's from the topic in #freenode *shrugs*
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20:56:59 <\oren\> int-e: you can't connect from AWS to freenode without SASL tho
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21:53:59 <wob_jonas> good to see you. let me read the log
21:54:48 <wob_jonas> guess what, arseniiv added me into the hackeso quotesdb. he's growing up to become a full #esoteric regular, and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be.
21:54:57 <HackEso> 2018-08-22 21:54:56.893904170+00:00
21:55:49 <wob_jonas> oh good. in the afternoon, for some reason hackeso wouldn't reply to my private messages. I decided it was a feature, because I can't be trusted. but now he does answer private messages
21:57:07 <wob_jonas> "suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts" => you should look at http://www.omniglot.com/ , and the "Constructed scripts" heading in particular. admittedly, that's a rather biased personal selection by the omniglot website maintainer, but still.
21:57:50 <wob_jonas> I have two completely undocumented alphabets I have created, and some attempts to map writing Hungarian or English into them.
21:58:20 <wob_jonas> "what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays" => paper and pencil at first. the font part is difficult indeed.
22:01:06 <wob_jonas> "it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet" => oh yes, there are a few of those too. like the set of 306 syllable symbols in https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1986 , with no writing system for any language mapping to it yet.
22:03:09 <wob_jonas> the constructed alphabets are created are more intended to be used as traditional alphabets, not sylabillaries, although one of them also has an extended version that could be used for some APL-like notation with over 256 possible symbols combined from a somewhat simple traditional system of backspacing and overprinting one of the few modifiers ont
22:05:10 <wob_jonas> Basically I have a set of 30 base letters, with a canon assignment of 26 of them to the 26 ascii letters for when you want a strict transliteration, but you don't have to do that, you can use other writing systems more suitable for specific languages,
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22:06:36 <wob_jonas> then 6 additional modifiers (diacritics: dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, long horizontal bar in the middle, vertical bar) that you each can overprint to each base letter, although to make it look nice you have to shift them a bit depending on which letter you put them onto;
22:08:11 <wob_jonas> then I also have 16 digits, with a canonical assignment to the hexadecimal digits, but which you can also combine with one of the five allowed modifiers (dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, vertical bar; but NOT horizontal bar) to get extra symbols for maths or programming or even writing;
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22:09:56 <wob_jonas> plus also space (which is just the ascii "halfwidth" space used in latin script); plus 16 punctuation symbols, each of which you can combine with one of the six modifiers, but some combinations are banned because they'd either look ambiguous or very ugly; and possibly a few extra symbols that I've been experimenting with to perturb the system but t
22:11:30 <wob_jonas> The 16 punctuation symbols are: period, comma, left round parenthesis, right round parenthesis, less than, greater than, vee, wedge, minus, vertical bar, slash, backslash, equals, plus, cross, eight-pointed star (a plus and a cross overlaid with their centers exactly at the same place).
22:12:20 <wob_jonas> vertical bar with the vertical bar modifier is one of the banned combinations, dot with the dot above modifier is an allowed combination and is basically a colon, comma with dot above is basically a semicolon,
22:12:58 <wob_jonas> one of dot with middle bar modifier and minus with dot under must be a banned combination, but I haven't completely fixed the list of banned combinations, although I do have some draft versions of it.
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22:16:41 <wob_jonas> This is one of the two scripts I'm trying to invent. The other is much simpler, with only 32 symbols of which 16 are base letters and 16 have variable use, plus some modifiers that are used only as shorthand, plus a writing system for Hungarian.
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22:17:05 <wob_jonas> The big one actually stole the set of digits from the 16 base letters of the other.
22:17:51 <wob_jonas> I haven't fixed a canonical alphabetic order for any of them yet, except obviously for the 16 digits in the bigger script.
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22:43:53 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be => nope, it’s too complex :o
22:44:32 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: that's not why I can't be trusted
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23:11:17 <arseniiv> well anyway I’m not going to dive in its self-editing capabilities
23:11:54 <arseniiv> or hopefully there’s a backup somewhere
23:13:26 <fizzie> It's on top of a (D)VCS, it's easy to revert to a previous state.
23:13:42 <fizzie> (Except for the /hackenv/tmp directory.)
23:14:26 <fizzie> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
23:14:42 <wob_jonas> yeah, generally. there are some practical difficulties, but they rarely come up.
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23:33:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: here's a quickly scribbled explanation of the conscripts I'm trying to create: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Tv6YC.png
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23:35:14 <ais523> I guess what I'm doing is basically what APL did
23:35:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, have you read my previous messages on the channel by the way?
23:35:59 <wob_jonas> I mean, during while you were apparently joined
23:36:09 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, just didn't have much to say
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23:36:30 <ais523> I guess you created the alphabet first and then tried to find a use for it
23:37:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I created the 5-segment display and digits first, then extended it to hex digits, and drew it in the parenthesis style I used in the bottom, then created the Hungarian writing system for it;
23:38:29 <wob_jonas> then later I tried to create some other conscript that failed, and then I tried to create the alphabet that would eventually become the base alphabet on the top, only it was larger and more complicated,
23:39:26 <wob_jonas> and then I added the digits and the punctuation, but because of the parens in the punctutation, I decided to change the shape of the 1 and C digits to C-shaped, and some time in the meanwhile I experimented with systems of diacritics and eventually came up with this one,
23:39:53 <wob_jonas> and decided that since it's more than 256 symbols, and has lots of modified letters and modified punctuation, it's usable enough for an APL
23:40:47 <ais523> well, for an APL you really want the symbols to match what the command does more or less exactly
23:41:04 <ais523> that's why you need to create new ones if you're adding new commands
23:41:11 <wob_jonas> J uses two common diacritics on both lower and uppercase ascii letters and ascii punctuation and ascii digits, but since I don't have uppercase digits and have half the number of punctuation, but have it balanced by more diacritics, the symbol set looks APL-like enough for me
23:41:34 <shachaf> Should macros be syntactically distinct from regular function calls?
23:41:49 <shachaf> What's a good way to make the distinction? Rust uses ! but that seems too noisy to me.
23:41:55 <wob_jonas> sort of... but after a while the symbol set for APL more or less froze, and
23:41:59 <ais523> shachaf: IMO it depends on whether the macro can do things a regular function call can't
23:42:13 <shachaf> Well, that's why it's a macro, right?
23:42:28 <ais523> C uses allcaps for macros (as a convention), which brings the point across quite well… /except/ that it uses lowercase, as with regular functions, if the macro isn't doing anything weird that you need to pay attention to
23:42:45 <shachaf> Allcaps also seems too noisy to me.
23:42:51 <ais523> a macro should look like a control flow construct, really
23:42:52 <shachaf> Imagine IF, WHILE, etc. as macros.
23:43:22 <ais523> if you have a Perl-like syntax, something like barewords (no sigil) for macros, leading & for functions, would be consistent with the rest of the language
23:43:31 <ais523> but Perl dropped that, despite the inconsistency, probably because it was too noisy
23:43:55 <ais523> perhaps the rule should be something like "macros use parens around their arguments, functions don't"
23:44:04 <shachaf> Another question: Is there a language that distinguishes lvalues from rvalues explicitly rather than automatically allowing lvalues in rvalue context?
23:44:33 <ais523> shachaf: most mathematical formalisations of language do, and the syntax has leaked into some of them, such as OCaml
23:44:40 <ais523> usual syntax is ! for lvalue-to-rvalue conversion
23:44:49 <shachaf> Right, SML or OCaml or something has refs which are similar.
23:44:54 <ais523> so to increment x in OCaml, you write «x := !x + 1»
23:45:02 <shachaf> But I'm imagining a C-like language where I think it would be noisier in general?
23:45:12 <ais523> only because you mutate more in general
23:45:34 <wob_jonas> well... ruby has a strange idea of lvalues. it mostly doesn't have them, instead it has indexed-assignment and method-assignment as ordinary methods with funny names, and like ten special case syntaxes that assign to different variables
23:45:40 <ais523> Algol's weird in that it has a very fixed distinction between lvalues and rvalues but conversions like lvalue-to-rvalue and pointer dereferencing are implicit, guided by the type system
23:45:47 <shachaf> Maybe C's * operator is already similar to this.
23:46:03 <wob_jonas> compared to perl, which has real lvalues.
23:46:12 <wob_jonas> or C++, which also has real lvalues
23:46:13 <ais523> C's & operator is an abberation caused by the fact that * is normally implicit
23:46:21 <ais523> except on the LHS of an assignment
23:46:27 <ais523> so you need an & to turn it off
23:46:31 <shachaf> I'm undecided about references in C++.
23:46:37 <shachaf> "int &x = y;" doesn't seem that great.
23:46:52 <shachaf> But "int &operator[](...)" seems OK?
23:47:15 <shachaf> Maybe I'm OK with functions returning references but not taking them as arguments.
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23:47:57 <ais523> shachaf: in Algol, /all/ "variable names" are constants; thus "int ref x = y" would create a constant integer reference x pointing to the same thing as the constant integer reference y
23:48:05 <wob_jonas> sorry, it's too late and I have to sleep, but we can discuss that some time later. I like C++, including the references part, but it's complicated to explain why.
23:48:32 <wob_jonas> but I also don't think that every language necessarily needs lvalues.
23:48:39 <wob_jonas> you can have a fine language without lvalues.
23:48:59 <ais523> whereas "int x := y" is shorthand for "int ref x = «whatever the syntax for allocating memory is in Algol; I've forgotten»; x := y", which creates a constant integer reference x pointing to new memory, then copies the value pointed to by y into it
23:49:24 <shachaf> Is that stack-allocated memory or something similar?
23:50:30 <ais523> shachaf: I think there's different syntax for stack and heap allocation
23:50:50 <ais523> oh, it's "loc int" for allocating int-sized memory on the stack, I just remembered the syntax
23:53:09 <ais523> anyway, the shorthand is very convenient (and probably inspired C's declaration syntax), but unlike the rest of the language, really hides what's going on
23:54:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: you mean auto declarations in C?
23:54:17 <shachaf> The kinds of macros I'm talking about take not just their "arguments" but also the rest of the block.
23:54:38 <ais523> shachaf: like the ? we were discussing earlier?
23:54:44 <wob_jonas> as opposed to global variable declarations or definitions
23:55:06 <shachaf> I think what I have in mind is a bit more syntactic but I'm actually not sure.
23:55:19 <shachaf> I'd like to make it less macro-y but I don't know how doable that is.
23:55:37 <shachaf> You remember, this is for the language idea where all the control flow constructs work like this.
23:56:01 <ais523> there definitely seems to be a connection between control flow constructs and macros
23:56:12 <shachaf> I'd like these to be as expression-like as possible, though.
23:56:26 <shachaf> Maybe something like { x := for(for(a)); ... } can make sense for a nested loop.
23:56:42 <shachaf> (Which would mean { y := for(a); x := for(y); ... }
23:56:57 <shachaf> In this sense what they really take as an argument is more like a continuation.
23:57:21 <ais523> maybe what we want is syntax for making a continuation out of the rest of the block
23:57:39 <shachaf> { x := f(for(a), for(b)); ... }?
23:57:48 <ais523> which probably implies a parens-not-required syntax for function calls
23:57:56 <shachaf> This would impose an evaluation order probably. Which monads etc. need to do anyway.
23:58:03 <ais523> and "rest of the block" would be defined in terms of evaluation orders, so your for(a), for(b) would work just fine
23:58:15 <ais523> you do need an explicit evaluation order, as your last example shows
23:58:26 <ais523> (which could be "unspecified" but probably shouldn't be)
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23:59:27 <ais523> aren't continuations just the control flow version of SSA?
23:59:34 <shachaf> They're very similar at least.
23:59:49 <ais523> well yes, my last statement is probably an overstatement but there seems to be something of a connection
23:59:59 <shachaf> Yes, there's clearly a connection.
00:00:25 <ais523> { x:= f(for(a)?, for(b)?); … } unifies your syntax and mine
00:00:29 <shachaf> By the way, is there a reason many languages support multiple arguments rather than just supporting tuple arguments?
00:00:40 <shachaf> ais523: What is for() in this context?
00:00:59 <ais523> shachaf: it returns a List monad action
00:01:14 <ais523> then ? will convert that into a map operation over the rest of the block on the returned list
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00:01:34 <shachaf> Hmm, can you guarantee that that compiles to efficient code?
00:01:48 <shachaf> I don't want heap allocations or laziness or anything like that.
00:02:15 <ais523> well, a List monad action doesn't need to be an actual list
00:02:31 <shachaf> Sure. I guess I don't know how your monads are represented.
00:02:36 <ais523> as the only things you can /do/ with it are flatten and map, both of which can be implemented in compressed form
00:02:53 <ais523> in general, a monad action is basically just a <flatten, map> tuple
00:02:58 <ais523> where flatten and map are functions
00:03:15 <ais523> although it probably has extra metadata so that it knows how to flatten other instances of itself
00:03:38 <ais523> I guess this is easier with rust definitions, it's something which has a trait that allows it to be flattened and mapped
00:04:09 <shachaf> What about { while(p); ... }?
00:04:10 <ais523> flatten for iterators is basically just "do the first iterator, then the second, then the third…"
00:04:14 <ais523> map for iterators is obvious
00:04:16 <shachaf> Here p needs to be re-evaluated on each iteration.
00:04:31 <ais523> that doesn't work where p is eager, so it would need to be lazy
00:04:45 <shachaf> Well, it works if you can do a goto to the beginning.
00:05:24 <shachaf> { while(p); ... } --> { @loop; if(p); { ... }; repeat @loop; }
00:05:42 <ais523> laziness is a monad too, so I guess you could just say "while takes an action as argument", but { while(lazy {p}) } is pretty ugly syntax
00:05:48 <shachaf> Where @ is a syntax for naming a block, or a label. And repeat is just a restricted goto.
00:06:04 <ais523> if goto only goes backwards then it's more like a break
00:06:30 <ais523> but if we're using an evaluation order model, p gets evaluated before while, so while can't place a label before the evaulation of p
00:06:43 <ais523> unless we use a different evaluation order in which the function is evaluated before its arguments, I guess
00:06:56 <ais523> but then it'd look like while()(p) unless we were using unusual syntax
00:07:01 <shachaf> Well, I think this was just one of the things I was allowing these constructs to do?
00:07:26 <shachaf> They get a label pointing to the block they're at the beginning of.
00:07:41 <ais523> actually, thinking about it, break can't be implemented like this because we can't escape from blocks other than the nested block we're in
00:07:52 <ais523> so your idea is a bit more general, mostly because it has continuations
00:08:02 <shachaf> So the other thing I have is break from any block.
00:08:24 <shachaf> break-with-value from any block, even. Which is such a useful feature I'm surprised no language has it.
00:08:52 <shachaf> This kind of early exit means that you can't really use lambdas.
00:09:40 <shachaf> return is also just a special case of this.
00:10:36 <shachaf> I mentioned the other day that I figured out what break and continue are.
00:10:39 <ais523> break-with-value from any block is basically what you get when each block does an implicit call/cc (as you can use the continuation to send the value back)
00:10:52 <ais523> also, "no language has it" is wrong, you can do it just fine in INTERCAL
00:10:55 <shachaf> Well, it's not arbitrary continuations.
00:11:14 <ais523> although this is because return values in INTERCAL are just global variables, so you can write to them, and then do a RESUME #10 or whatever
00:11:19 <shachaf> There's effectively a static stack of blocks at any point.
00:11:28 <ais523> stack-allocated continuations
00:11:33 <shachaf> And you can break from any of them, up to the outermost block (which is going to be a function call frame).
00:12:15 <shachaf> If you have "cleanup" like RAII destructors or defer, early exit can know to run them, as well.
00:12:16 <ais523> why don't you break out of that into the black lagoon?
00:12:37 <shachaf> I think I'm missing a reference.
00:12:56 <ais523> http://catb.org/esr/intercal/ick.htm#E123
00:13:05 <ais523> oh, that's the wrong direction, stack overflow not underflow
00:13:16 <ais523> this one's underflow: http://catb.org/esr/intercal/ick.htm#E632
00:14:38 <shachaf> Anyway, when you have a loop, { @outer; loop; @inner; ... }, "break" means "end @outer" and "continue" means "end @inner"
00:14:58 <ais523> I guess "continuations on the stack" is a good model for this
00:15:12 <ais523> come to think of it, that's how function calls work too
00:15:34 <ais523> I was about to say "is it possible to construct a model in which loops and function calls are the same thing" and then realised it was just tail-recursion
00:15:35 <shachaf> Python's "for x in xs: A else: B" means: { @outer { x := for(xs); @inner; A; } B; }
00:15:57 <ais523> wouldn't that run B regardless?
00:16:11 <ais523> ah no, if you break out of outer
00:16:31 <ais523> "else" is a bizarre keyword for that, though; "if you don't break" is not what I think of as "else"
00:16:38 <shachaf> Right, it seems backwards to me.
00:17:24 <ais523> oddly, it would fit the meaning of the English word "finally" quite well, but the "finally" control flow operation is /also/ different from that!
00:17:49 <ais523> perhaps "then" would work best, but it likely isn't a keyword in Python
00:19:13 <ais523> ooh, completely unrelated question related to an esointerpreter I'm writing: is it possible/sane to use a single SQL-relational-database index for both "return all X with a specific Y" and "return all X with a specific Y and specific Z", where Z is a boolean?
00:19:14 <shachaf> I think the implication is that you break in the successful case.
00:19:37 <shachaf> E.g. "for x in xs: if x == y: break else: ..."
00:19:45 <shachaf> (Where the else is associated with the for, not the if.)
00:19:53 <ais523> my understanding of how SQL indexes work is that an index (X, Z, Y) would work only if, in the first case, we used a range query on the boolean specifying that it must be between false and true
00:20:10 <ais523> but that seems ridiculous, so I suspect there's a flaw in my understanding somehow
00:21:02 <ais523> err, I mean (Y, Z, X), and now I think about it, an SQL engine will get that right for both queries
00:21:15 <ais523> because I got the question wrong
00:21:34 <ais523> never mind, I'm too tired to phrase the question correctly right now
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00:36:36 <ais523> anyway, I found the answer for SQLite in the SQLite docs, there's something called "skip-scan" that can do this sort of conversion automatically, but it only does so if it knows that the column contains lots of booleans
00:36:41 <ais523> err, lots of duplicates
00:37:09 <ais523> which it really should for a boolean coulmn, but SQLite's handling of types is utterly insane, so it can't do that automatically without an ANALYZE run to prove it
00:39:28 <ais523> so I guess my conclusion for the question I meant to ask, even though I haven't figured out what it is yet, is "doing the optimization manually makes sense because it informs the engine that our booleans will only be false or true"
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01:01:39 <Sgeo> Currently in a C64 compatible MMO
01:02:01 <Sgeo> (Well, the only existent client is for C64, so I guess more than just compatible)
01:02:50 <ais523> can a game count as "massively multiplayer" if it only runs on a platform that a non-massive number of people own?
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01:11:59 <shachaf> this is a p. good indentation style.
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01:21:47 <Sgeo> It does run in C64 emulators. I wonder if that makes my statement "Well, the only existent client is for C64" technically inaccurate
01:22:02 <Sgeo> If you consider emulator+C64 client to itself be a client
01:22:50 <ais523> shachaf: I'd expect that style to have the } at the end of the previous line
01:23:14 <ais523> hmm, now I'm reminded of an indentation style I used for Lua once
01:23:27 <ais523> it used four-space indentation, but multiple consecutive "end"s were placed on the same line
01:23:40 <ais523> this helped readability when you have 8-10 nested for loops
01:27:21 <shachaf> Well, the inspiration for this is the style
01:27:51 <shachaf> Which is meant to be similar to the same thing but with "if(p) {" on the first line.
01:28:10 <shachaf> But I kind of like having the first statement of a block on the same line as the {
01:29:02 <shachaf> This depends on two-space indentation to be very natural, though.
01:29:12 <ais523> I guess you'd at least want to stack } because that style would naturally stack nested {
01:29:33 <ais523> not that there's much purpose to nesting bare blocks in most languages, but…
01:30:12 <ais523> (it can be occasionally useful in Perl; do{{}} is not equivalent to do{} because the latter doesn't generate break/continue points and the former does)
01:30:29 <shachaf> So it's generally true in languages with blocks that { a; b; c; } means the same thing as { a; { b; { c; } } }, right?
01:30:51 <ais523> in most but not quite all, I think the latter is different in Perl 6 even without break/continue
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01:38:05 <callforjudgement> shachaf: in Perl 6, { my $c = $^a; $^b + $c } takes two arguments, whereas { my $c = $^a; {$^b + $c} } takes one argument and appears to cause a type error if you call it
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01:38:20 <ais523> that said, I'm cheating by using implicit argument syntax here
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01:40:02 <shachaf> Does Perl 6 have a notion of block arguments?
01:41:50 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/perl6: not found
01:41:55 <ais523> bleh, was hoping I could use HackEso for this
01:42:00 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: perl6: command not found
01:42:52 <ais523> although I think blocks have to be run explicitly to get at their values; if you try to use them in expression context they turn lazy
01:43:17 <ais523> $ perl6 -e '-> $a {$a+1}.(3).say'
01:43:25 <ais523> actually, the more I use Perl 6 the less I like it
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08:47:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: about that {if(x);stmt} thing, I know it's not very relevant, but I had pointed you to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo right? it has some similar syntax for conditionals and loops.
08:47:35 <wob_jonas> ideally it should have ordinary functions
08:50:54 <shachaf> It looks pretty different?
08:50:58 <shachaf> I don't remember seeing it before.
08:51:08 <wob_jonas> and perhaps it should be extended to support labelled loops and labelled breaks
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08:53:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it has a syntax that allows you to have statements that conditionally break out of the innermost block, returning a value from that block, since every block can be used as an expression and can have value the value. the condition and return value themselves can be blocks if you want.
08:53:44 <wob_jonas> and blocks can be normal or infinitely looping.
08:53:54 <shachaf> You should invent + implement my language for me.
08:54:08 <shachaf> Since I thought of it I constantly see places where I wish I had these constructs.
08:54:11 <wob_jonas> so if(x); would translate to x!; in geo
08:54:41 <shachaf> Hmm, your blocks are explicit, it looks like?
08:54:56 <shachaf> So (a; b; c) is different from (a; (b; c))
08:54:58 <wob_jonas> {if(x);stmt1;stmt2;} is written like (x!;stmt1;stmt2;) in geo
08:55:19 <shachaf> How is {stmt1; if(x); stmt2;} written?
08:55:25 <wob_jonas> {while(x);stmt1;stmt2;} is written like (x!;stmt1;stmt2;*)
08:55:41 <wob_jonas> {stmt1;if(x);stmt2;} is written as (stmt1;x!;stmt2;)
08:55:47 <wob_jonas> the ! is just a negated ? by the way
08:56:11 <wob_jonas> so {if(!x);stmt1;} translates to (x?;stmt1;)
08:56:22 <wob_jonas> provided that ! negates a boolean in your language
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08:56:53 <wob_jonas> and C's do{stmt1;stmt2;}while(x) translates to (stmt1;stmt1;x!;*) in geo
08:58:56 <wob_jonas> there would be a straightforward translation from geo to rust control structures: (stmt1;stmt2;expr) translates to {stmt1;stmt2;expr} , (stmt1;stmt2;*) trnaslates to loop{stmt1;stmt2;} , cond?expr translates to if !cond {break expr} , and cond!expr translates to if cond {break expr}
08:59:30 <wob_jonas> only geo is dynamically typed and rust is strongly typed, so the builtin array manipulation and arithmetic in geo might be a bit tricky to translate
08:59:51 <shachaf> To be clear, in my language, {stmt1;if(x);stmt2;} means { stmt1; if(x) { stmt2; } } in C
09:00:02 <wob_jonas> (stmt1;stmt2;expr) would have to be translated to loop{stmt1;stmt2;break expr} in rust
09:00:25 <wob_jonas> I was wrong above about its rust translation
09:00:27 <fizzie> shachaf: If you allow any control flow (goto, or setjmp/longjmp) to get back to an earlier statement, { a; b; c; } isn't strictly equivalent to { a; { b; { c; } } } in C either, because the lifetimes of objects with automatic storage duration (and non-VLA type) start from the entry into the associated block, not from the declaration.
09:00:54 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes. C's { stmt1; if(x) { stmt2; } } translates to geo's (stmt1; x!; stmt2;)
09:01:12 <wob_jonas> I also didn't mention that you can declare variables that are local to a block, just like in C
09:03:18 <wob_jonas> and also C's {if(x) stmt1; else { stmt2; stmt3; }} translates to (x?stmt1;stmt2;stmt3;); #note semicolon
09:04:00 <wob_jonas> and C's { if(x) { stmt1; stmt2; } else { stmt3; stmt4; } } translates to geo's (x?(stmt1;stmt2;);stmt3;stmt4;)
09:04:12 <shachaf> fizzie: Is that also true in C++?
09:04:14 <wob_jonas> and then stmt1 and stmt3 could be a local variable declaration and the translation still works
09:05:23 <shachaf> wob_jonas: OK, inferred too much from "(stmt0; ...; stmtN; cond!; *)"
09:05:38 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it would be possible to extend geo with rust-like label blocks and labeled breaks, and with functions that have an argument list and return value, but I have never tried to implement that, and frankly back then I didn't even think of labeled blocks much.
09:06:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo page gives a rather concise but probably precise description. it doesn't give all details of the arithmetic operators' behavior, but that part is easy to modify in the source code anyway.
09:10:26 <wob_jonas> it also doesn't tell that [] returns a new array allocated on the heap, whose size you can later expand on the right with indexing, and [expr0,expr1,expr2] returns a newly allocated array pre-filled with three elements
09:10:38 <wob_jonas> I should mention something about this
09:12:29 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Hmm, conditional exit was the main primitive I was thinking of defining things in terms of.
09:12:59 <shachaf> I'm not sure what primitives are best.
09:13:15 <shachaf> Conditional exit and repeat?
09:14:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: geo is turing-complete, but not very convenient, because it doesn't have user-defined functions.
09:14:41 <shachaf> I didn't figure out a great way to handle if-else, either.
09:15:48 <shachaf> I mean if (p) { ... } else { ... }
09:16:19 <shachaf> Though I figured out some variants of switch-case etc. that were pretty neat.
09:17:14 <shachaf> So for C's (p ? x : y), you use something like { endif(p, x); end y; }
09:17:22 <shachaf> Of course it's nicer with your syntax.
09:17:53 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know, but probably not. Non-trivial initialization and all that. In C11 it's 6.2.4p6.
09:18:52 <shachaf> fizzie: Should it work that way or is it just that it does work that way?
09:28:49 <wob_jonas> I'm extending the geo page on the wiki now, but the control structures are already explained.
09:37:51 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Do you have a good answer for if-else?
09:38:06 <shachaf> The nice thing about C if-else is that you only have one level of {}
09:42:21 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what's wrong with what I said above?
09:42:36 <wob_jonas> C's {if(x) stmt1; else { stmt2; stmt3; }} translates to geo (x?stmt1;stmt2;stmt3;); #note semicolon
09:42:43 <wob_jonas> and C's { if(x) { stmt1; stmt2; } else { stmt3; stmt4; } } translates to geo's (x?(stmt1;stmt2;);stmt3;stmt4;)
09:42:54 <wob_jonas> and then in the latter, stmt1 and stmt3 could be a local variable declaration and the translation still works
09:44:04 <shachaf> The trouble is double nesting.
09:44:16 <shachaf> Worse, the if and else aren't even at the same level of nesting.
09:44:24 <wob_jonas> what double nesting? can you give an example?
09:44:37 <shachaf> There are two levels of parentheses there.
09:44:49 <wob_jonas> if you want symmetry, you can write (x?(stmt1;stmt2;);(stmt3;stmt4;))
09:45:01 <shachaf> Yes, but you still have two layers of parentheses.
09:45:22 <shachaf> In C, you can write "if (p) { ... }" and it's fine.
09:45:31 <wob_jonas> yes. but only if you have more than one statement for the then-branch. you need braces in C for that case.
09:45:36 <shachaf> And later if you want to do something in the other case, you can extend it to "if (p) { ... } else { ... }"
09:45:49 <wob_jonas> you can write elseif cascades easily:
09:47:13 <shachaf> So I have something like { cond; { when(p); ... }; { when(q); ... } }
09:47:27 <shachaf> Where "when(p)" implicitly breaks out of the surrounding "cond".
09:48:09 <shachaf> One nice thing is that you can write { cond; { when(p); ... }; { c := for(cs); when(x == c); ... } }
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10:40:48 <wob_jonas> I in fact now have no clue how arrays and localization work in geo, and I've read some of the code
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10:59:53 <fizzie> shachaf: If you're asking for a personal opinion, it's a little odd that there's a difference between VLAs and non-VLAs, and I can't think of any particularly reasonable use cases for using an automatic storage duration object before the declaration, so I wouldn't mind if the lifetime started from the declaration for all types.
11:01:38 <HackEso> 1327 26733 160077 quotes
11:02:01 <oerjan> . o O ( just 10 more till int-e gets annoyed )
11:02:34 <oerjan> if i remember the right person
11:02:42 <fizzie> Surely he'll be delighted after 10, and annoyed after 11?
11:03:32 <oerjan> hm i interpreted him that 10 was bad too
11:04:18 <fizzie> There's still time for someone to update `addquote to drop the least important quote when it would exceed whatever the comfortable number was. (Determining the least important quote left as an exercise.)
11:04:47 <HackEso> 961) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
11:05:07 <oerjan> we do have the 5 quote tradition, it just doesn't get used much, as there aren't that many bad quotes left
11:05:17 <arseniiv> HaskEso had given me the same quote two times in a row
11:05:39 <oerjan> arseniiv: did you use a parameter with `quote ?
11:05:50 <oerjan> then it's actually deterministic and lists all hits
11:06:32 <oerjan> i think there's `randquote for when you want to get around that
11:06:37 <HackEso> 356) <olsner> as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over
11:06:52 <HackEso> 1253) <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's sort of like the principal, as far as I know. <hppavilion[1]> Except It only prints "<N> BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL!" Counting down from 99 to 0. With no line breaks.
11:07:42 <oerjan> fizzie: personally i want to get to 1400 to ease my triskaidekaphobia
11:09:43 <HackEso> 356) <olsner> as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over \ 650) <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) \ 662) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <
11:10:09 <HackEso> 662) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
11:10:20 <HackEso> 662) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
11:10:31 <HackEso> 894) <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary?
11:10:58 <HackEso> 831) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
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11:12:48 <oerjan> hm wob_jonas complained that HackEso wasn't answering his private messages, then later said it does, and indeed it now does, but still isn't registered?
11:14:44 <oerjan> and i'm still +R. must be some automatic excepting after i message it, or something.
11:16:15 <oerjan> perhaps wob_jonas changed client from one which doesn't have that feature...
11:28:27 <oerjan> oh maybe fizzie took off the +R for HackEso
11:29:29 <fizzie> I haven't done anything special.
11:30:02 <fizzie> But it's working for me, which is odd.
11:30:18 <oerjan> oh or maybe wob_jonas wasn't registered himself
11:30:53 <oerjan> fizzie: perhaps freenode have done something to reduce the effect of +R
11:31:25 <fizzie> Yeah, maybe they implicitly allow replies now or something.
11:32:09 <fizzie> HackEso itself probably still has +R on, so it wouldn't get the initial message from a non-registered sender.
11:35:40 <fizzie> Yep, that's it: https://github.com/freenode/ircd-seven/pull/135
11:36:12 <oerjan> ah indeed, i just found that HackEso is on my /accept list
11:43:07 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> oerjan: hackeso doesn't reply to my private messages. is this deliberate? <-- Freenode has default set all users +R because of the spammers, but also https://github.com/freenode/ircd-seven/pull/135 so it's transparent when a registered user messages a non-registered one (e.g. HackEso) first.
11:44:32 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas HackEso itself hasn't changed.
11:46:45 <oerjan> hm the underlying github issue isn't public
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11:48:33 <oerjan> . o O ( wob_jonas _really_ doesn
11:48:47 <oerjan> 't want to learn HackEso's convenience commands... )
11:49:04 <oerjan> also, apostrophes are evilly placed on this keyboard.
11:51:04 <HackEso> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import. \ 10027:2016-12-25 <oerjän> ` cp bin/quote{,s} # add rng improv
11:51:47 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas also, please learn to use the `doag etc. commands for HackEso log search, they are designed not to ping users.
11:52:19 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas well, the committers, anyway.
11:53:16 <oerjan> that's not very helpful i guess.
11:53:26 <HackEso> `[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds revision numbers and dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first.
11:54:04 <oerjan> `learn `doag: See `hoag
11:54:09 <HackEso> Learned '`doag': `doag: See `hoag
11:54:40 <oerjan> `learn `doat: See `hoag
11:54:42 <HackEso> Learned '`doat': `doat: See `hoag
11:54:59 <oerjan> `learn `dowt: See `hoag
11:55:01 <HackEso> Learned '`dowt': `dowt: See `hoag
11:55:20 <oerjan> `learn `dowg: See `hoag
11:55:22 <HackEso> Learned '`dowg': `dowg: See `hoag
11:55:55 <oerjan> does anyone use the h versions any longer
12:00:08 <oerjan> `` for i in hoat howg howt; do learn "$i"': See `hoag'; done
12:00:14 <HackEso> Learned 'hoat': hoat: See `hoag \ Learned 'howg': howg: See `hoag \ Learned 'howt': howt: See `hoag
12:00:39 <oerjan> `` for i in hoat howg howt; do learn \`"$i"': See `hoag'; done
12:00:42 <HackEso> Learned '`hoat': `hoat: See `hoag \ Learned '`howg': `howg: See `hoag \ Learned '`howt': `howt: See `hoag
12:01:40 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
12:05:12 <HackEso> 10027:2016-12-25 <oerjän> ` cp bin/quote{,s} # add rng improv \ 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
12:05:52 <HackEso> 11610:2018-08-22 <arseniïv> addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism \ 11589:2018-08-08 <oerjän> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585:2018-07-21 <oerjän> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a com
12:06:05 <oerjan> hm indeed only the committers
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12:44:36 <HackEso> disflagrate//disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
12:44:57 <HackEso> alg. ii//Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such.
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12:57:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andrew3335 * New user account
13:00:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57421&oldid=57397 * Andrew3335 * (+230)
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13:06:19 <esowiki> [[User:Andrew3335]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57422 * Andrew3335 * (+2) Created page with "I."
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13:26:19 <arseniiv> so do you think we (and I mean myself ;) need to describe that functional-combinatorian tarpit?
13:37:06 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57423&oldid=54934 * Arseniiv * (+127) !
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13:57:14 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I haven't registered the wob_jonas nick, but I'm logged in to my b_jonas account (as you can see if you whois or whox me) to be able to speak here
13:58:08 <wob_jonas> oerjan: sorry, you're right. I tried to use private messages to not ping users
13:59:36 <wob_jonas> but you're right, I shouldn't have pinged them
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15:50:44 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57424 * Arseniiv * (+2477) unctional!
15:52:18 <arseniiv> oh, my IRC client/font doesn’t display an article name
16:00:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57425&oldid=57419 * Arseniiv * (+10) added
16:03:51 <arseniiv> so it’s maybe a bug in esowiki bot, as you should be able to see Ⅎ when it’s written in this post, and in that one too
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16:23:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cheesepizza2 * New user account
16:26:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57426&oldid=57421 * Cheesepizza2 * (+328) /* Introductions */
16:27:23 <esowiki> [[GHOST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57427&oldid=45105 * Cheesepizza2 * (-85) /* WARNING */
16:33:57 <esowiki> [[F-PULSE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57428&oldid=49971 * Cheesepizza2 * (+27) /* Operands */
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16:53:39 <esowiki> [[GHOST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57429&oldid=57427 * Cheesepizza2 * (+9)
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17:24:07 <arseniiv> is there a page on wiki which lists useful templates?
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20:59:20 <arseniiv> someone interested in a numeric computation puzzle about optimizing generation of special random vectors?
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22:18:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sharpjaws * New user account
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22:45:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57430&oldid=57426 * Sharpjaws * (+202)
22:47:59 <shachaf> Sgeo: Have you considered that ALGOL 68 should be the new Sgeolang?
22:48:07 <shachaf> Ada might not be the ticket.
22:48:23 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
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23:19:20 <arseniiv> Xperia wallpapers took their toll on me: https://s22.postimg.cc/8g3zzxz8h/anim-24082018_T041317.gif
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00:55:17 <zzo38> I think they should add a DATE and TIME command into DOSBOX to set the clock skew amount for the current DOS session.
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00:56:35 <zzo38> What do you think?
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06:35:37 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57431&oldid=57411 * A * (+106) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */
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06:40:54 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57432&oldid=57431 * A * (+104)
06:51:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57433&oldid=57307 * A * (+138) I have another attempt.
06:52:48 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57434&oldid=57432 * A * (+80)
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07:49:43 <esowiki> [[Ackermann function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57435&oldid=8525 * A * (+263) And another implementation that exactly obeys the explanation on Wikipedia
07:52:12 <esowiki> [[Ackermann function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57436&oldid=57435 * A * (-23)
07:55:42 <esowiki> [[Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57437&oldid=11533 * A * (+71) On Wikipedia
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13:16:14 <esowiki> [[Printf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57438 * A * (+503) Created page with "printf is a simple programming language. ==Syntax== It is really VERY simple. It is a version of C in which you can't use any of the keywords and there is only a function cal..."
13:16:24 <esowiki> [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57439&oldid=57438 * A * (+1)
13:17:06 <esowiki> [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57440&oldid=57439 * A * (+0)
13:17:37 <esowiki> [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57441&oldid=57440 * A * (+4)
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13:33:30 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57442&oldid=57076 * Fogity * (+285) /* Example programs */ Added Ackermann function
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14:21:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57444&oldid=56687 * Arseniiv * (+396) /* Categorization */ new section
14:22:44 <arseniiv> hope it wasn’t too sarcastic :D
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17:58:45 <zzo38> It isn't just window functions in the next version of SQLite, but also a few bug fixes including one having to do with upsert.
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18:01:28 <ais523> has it been proven that Ⅎ requires parentheses to be Turing-complete?
18:04:14 <ais523> oh, hmm, maybe it's a PDA without them?
18:07:02 <ais523> yep, without parens a program always expands into a list of funtions that exist within the original program, evaluating consists of popping the first so many list entries and pushing the definition
18:07:06 <ais523> which can only see a finite depth into the stack
18:07:42 <ais523> and parens allow multiple functions to be grouped, Underload-style, so that list elements can become arbitrarily complex and thus break through the PDA barrier
18:16:27 <zzo38> This document https://sqlite.org/appfileformat.html mentions four kind of application file formats (fully custom, pile-of-files, wrapped-pile-of-files, SQLite), but also, a SQLite database can be used like wrapped-pile-of-files, and also you can have pile-of-wrapped-pile-of-files, and Microsoft Word format is a wrapped-pile-of-files too actually.
18:17:47 <zzo38> What kind os best depend on the use.
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18:25:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think Ⅎ requires one level of parenthesis, but not more, to be TC, but I'm not quite sure.
18:26:34 <wob_jonas> I've been thinking somewhat of a different language with the same goal (the minimal essence of functional programming), which has a somewhat similar goal, but is clearly not the same language.
18:27:30 <wob_jonas> That language is more complicated to define, because it needs more primitives, but might be slightly easier to implement.
18:28:09 <wob_jonas> Especially easier to implement if you want non-conservative garbage collection for it.
18:29:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: one is enough, yes
18:29:43 <ais523> you can define s with that
18:29:45 <ais523> and k doesn't need any
18:30:38 <wob_jonas> I don't have a finalized canon version of my language though, only vague ideas.
18:31:14 <wob_jonas> My goal was more a compromise towards being very easy to implement, rather than "the essence".
18:32:00 <wob_jonas> Also more compromise to being somewhat easy to use and somewhat efficient, although still not a production language.
18:32:38 <wob_jonas> More like a toy language to illustrate language design and implementing an interpreter and programs in it.
18:33:26 <ais523> come to think of it, this implies that Ⅎ is TC with exactly one pair of parentheses in the whole program
18:34:10 <wob_jonas> I guess Consumer Society would replace its goals in parts, although that one is more esoteric in design and less easy to implement and less easy to use.
18:34:14 <shachaf> ais523: I finally got around to reading about ALGOL 68.
18:34:28 <shachaf> Seems like a good language.
18:34:34 <wob_jonas> that's surprising, but sounds true
18:34:35 <shachaf> What have PL people done anything in the past 50 years?
18:34:57 <ais523> Algol 68 has some really interesting ideas, but is possibly somewhat impractical
18:35:05 <ais523> I think it was a failure at the time because nobody could figure out how to implement it
18:35:12 <ais523> with reasonable efficiency
18:35:59 <ais523> but yes, it still looks more advanced in a way than "mainstream" imperative languages, we've spent the last 50 years just catching back up to it
18:36:37 <wob_jonas> shachaf: C (which was a low level language better aligned to the computers of that era), modern C++ (more powerful and expressive than C), and rust (tries to redo stupid historical problems in C++ while having somewhat the same goals, it's a bit young yet and not fully mature, but otoh C++ is now overmature)
18:36:44 <ais523> and the cutting-edge research has mostly been in different paradigms
18:37:04 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Algol 68 had all sorts of great features that C and C++ don't have.
18:37:24 <wob_jonas> shachaf: all three of these have similar paradigms and goals as algol and fortran I think, but are updated with what can be done on more modern machines
18:37:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: can you be more specific? I don't know algol 68
18:37:37 <shachaf> It was admittedly garbage collected, which is pretty odd for 50 years ago (and maybe odd for today).
18:37:52 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ALGOL_68_and_C%2B%2B talks about some of it.
18:38:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't think it was odd 50 years ago. wasn't that already when lisp machines with gc were established?
18:38:15 <wob_jonas> mind you, some of them only had gc for fixed-size conses
18:38:50 <shachaf> I mean, odd for a language that might be in competition with C.
18:39:07 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Also thanks for mentioning Geo, it's more similar to the things I was looking for than I though.
18:39:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't think C was meant to be in direct competition with algol
18:39:48 <wob_jonas> it was certainly inspired, but then most programming languages are inspired by the other popular programming languages that already existed
18:39:49 <shachaf> I figured out what "break", "continue", "return" etc. mean, I don't remember whether I mentioned.
18:39:52 <ais523> C is a B derivative that adds a type system
18:40:02 <ais523> and B was focused on being as easy to implement as possible
18:40:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: break, continue, return in what? I admit geo's documentation isn't really complete, and in particular I have no idea what the precise semantics of "var" declarations are.
18:40:57 <shachaf> When you have labeled exit, break/continue/return all just mean exit to a particular label.
18:41:10 <wob_jonas> Also, it's a weird toy language that I made long ago and frozen, it's not a good language, I don't stand by the decisions I made for it anymore.
18:41:21 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, we talked aboutr that
18:41:31 <shachaf> OK, I didn't remember whether I put it that way.
18:41:42 <shachaf> So "return x;" just means "exit @return_label x;"
18:42:24 <shachaf> Algol 68 had nonlocal goto. So strange.
18:42:38 <shachaf> ais523: Was it Algol 68 that you mentioned call-by-name semantics for not long ago?
18:42:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think I mentioned that the C standard and IIRC the C++ standard *define* them that way. the full definition is tricky because they act on both while/do-while/for loops and switches, but
18:43:22 <wob_jonas> gotos are certainly the easiest way to define them in those languages, because they match how they affect the lexical scope and runtime scope of variables.
18:44:04 <wob_jonas> And the construction and deconstruction of variables and temporaries too in C++.
18:45:55 <wob_jonas> I'm saying this for C and C++ in particular, it's slightly less true in perl, and even less true in ruby and rust.
18:46:10 <shachaf> Anyway the reason I ended up reading about Algol 68 was that I was trying to figure out what lvalues are.
18:46:25 <shachaf> C has the notion of lvalues and also of pointers, and they're pretty similar.
18:46:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: what do you mean by "call-by-name"? do you mean just passing function arguments by a pointer/reference to them? because I think fortran has that.
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18:47:07 <shachaf> I remember the example ais523 gave was pretty surprising but I don't remember the details now.
18:47:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that's tricky because every language treats lvalues differently.
18:47:44 <shachaf> In Algol 68, as far as I can tell, you don't don't ever declare mutable variables exactly.
18:47:48 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what do you mean by nonlocal goto? goto across function boundaries?
18:48:12 <shachaf> You can pass a goto label as an argument to a function, and it looks to it like a function pointer.
18:48:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, computed/indirect goto. wow.
18:48:53 <shachaf> So the equivalent of "int x = 5;" is something like "int *const x = stack_allocate; *x = 5;"
18:48:58 <shachaf> (With a shorthand syntax.)b
18:49:43 <wob_jonas> no direct mutable variables is surprising for that age, but I'm not sure if it's a feature over C and C++, because you can use one-element arrays in C and references in C++ in a somewhat similar way.
18:50:14 <shachaf> C++ references are something weird and suspicious.
18:50:29 <wob_jonas> in fact there's a trick in C where a library header defines an opaque type as a one-element array if such values are to be passed to library functions by reference but can be allocated on the stack.
18:51:01 <wob_jonas> shachaf: they're weird, but part of the weirdness is that it took a long time to figure out the right semantics, so there are some historical mistakes on them
18:51:44 <shachaf> I'm not so sure they've figured out the right semantics anyway.
18:51:48 <wob_jonas> done right I think references are a good tool, although one that is prone to overusing
18:51:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: they're working on it, and some of it is too late to fix
18:52:10 <wob_jonas> some of it they're still trying to add to future versions
18:52:21 <wob_jonas> there are multiple problems to be solved
18:52:57 <wob_jonas> mostly connected with efficient handling of refs to data structures that are not trivial to copy or move or initialize empty or destroy
18:53:19 <wob_jonas> but also with just the current syntax and library support not being good enough
18:53:37 <shachaf> I like the Algol system because it seems simpler than the C system.
18:53:55 <wob_jonas> and how they combine with more questionable features, such as the new initializer-list-arguments and variadic templates
18:54:06 <shachaf> Though the implicit coercions between ref int and int and so on are suspicious.
18:54:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: but does the algol system has any inefficiencies, like things you can't do efficiently because of them or that are hard to do efficiently?
18:55:18 <wob_jonas> especially in low-level programs that want to be efficient at runtime
18:55:57 <wob_jonas> I don't know algol, that's why I'm asking
18:58:10 <wob_jonas> Rust references are very different, they're less powerful than the C++ ones (at least currently, they're working on some of that), and have very different kinds of magic from the C++ references (and I hate some of the rust magic, but some of it is about traits, and that magic would be already there without references, references just make it worse)
18:59:15 <shachaf> I thought they just have different kinds of pointers.
19:00:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sort of. there's something they call references, which differ from the pointers it also has (and the pointers differ from C pointers, but that's a different question), they have very different goals from C++ references, but some of the goals are shared.
19:03:03 <ais523> wob_jonas: here's an example of call-by-name (pseudocode C-like syntax): int x = 3; int f(int y) {x = 5; return y+1;} print(f(x+4));
19:03:09 <wob_jonas> mind you, C pointers are easy to almost simulate with rust pointers, so rust is strictly more powerful in them, with the exception that rust doesn't have an offsetof
19:03:25 <ais523> well, Rust has C pointers too
19:03:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it has rust pointers, which are similar to C pointers but differ in two ways
19:04:06 <wob_jonas> well, two ways not counting the lack of offsetof
19:04:12 <ais523> wob_jonas: you can think of call-by-name as effectively passing the concept of "x+4" as an argument, as opposed to 7 (i.e. the value of x+4)
19:04:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: wow, that is strange to have in such an old language, especially if it has that by default. that means making automatic closures.
19:05:22 <wob_jonas> languages took a lot of time until they started to support even explicit closures, except for lisp, most of which had it from the start
19:05:34 <wob_jonas> maybe lisp didn't have them from the start
19:05:57 <ais523> I don't think it requires closures? it requires some sort of lightweight functional thing, but I don't think it's a closure
19:06:02 <ais523> because it doesn't capture anything
19:06:42 <ais523> err, unless you allow recursion, in which case it captures the current stack depth so that it can disambiguate which version of a local variable you mean
19:06:43 <wob_jonas> both scheme and common lisp has them now, but in scheme and haskell and standard ml, function references and named functions have close to the same syntax and behavior, whereas in common lisp they have different syntax, and in prolog they have different syntax and behavior
19:08:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: it captures at least a pointer to stack. some C++ closures and gcc C closures are implemented that way, although C++ doesn't strictly speaking guarantees this,
19:08:22 <ais523> yes, I think "captures a pointer to stack" is the right way to think about this
19:08:41 <ais523> so it's the same concept as a gcc nested function
19:08:53 <ais523> which is also suffering from the lack of a good name
19:09:01 <wob_jonas> although C++/rust closures have a code size hit because they're specialized for each closure body, whereas gcc C closures have a runtime hit, because they're implemented in a way that that their calling convention is compatible with plain C functions
19:10:56 <shachaf> ais523: Are you sure Algol 68 does that?
19:10:59 <wob_jonas> there's also the part where gcc C functions require an executable stack, which people hate these days, but that wasn't yet the case when gcc C closures were invented, because back then most CPU MMUs didn't support non-executable readable memory areas on a flat address arch
19:11:16 <ais523> shachaf: Algol 68 doesn't do that, call-by-name is an Algol 60 thing
19:11:33 <ais523> Algol 68 changed to call-by-value because people found call-by-name too confusing and too hard to implement
19:11:36 <wob_jonas> and I think gcc's primary target were flat address CPUs even back then
19:12:18 <wob_jonas> as opposed to segmented ones, which did support non-executable readable segments, which in fact was easy to implement in 286 since they already had to support at least three differently executable segments, if not four
19:12:44 <wob_jonas> 16 bit versus 32 bit, and normal executable segments vs interrupt gates vs system call gates, and I think that's partly orthogonal
19:13:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: I believe fortran has had call by reference from the start, which is easier. it just involves passing a transparent-syntax pointer to the argument, even if the argument is a temporary
19:14:35 <ais523> "call-by-reference" is basically just call-by-lvalue (whereas "call-by-value" is call-by-rvalue)
19:14:43 <wob_jonas> programming languages stopped that when functions got cheap enough that people started to make a lot of them, and call by ref became a severe runtime performance hit, especially because cross-compilation-unit it can't be optimized away
19:14:54 <ais523> by-reference and by-value are basically identical, just differ in whether it's an lvalue or rvalue you're passing
19:15:18 <shachaf> I'm a bit skeptical of lvalues, I think.
19:15:22 <ais523> I think Perl is a good example of an actually call-by-reference language
19:15:29 <ais523> although it's also capable of return-by-reference, which is just bizarre
19:15:39 <wob_jonas> yes, but exclusive call-by-reference is not a good idea if you want efficient low-level programming, which was a goal of C from the start
19:15:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: ... perl is strange though, also for historical reasons
19:16:02 <ais523> the only use for return-by-reference I've discovered so far is the array syntax in A Pear Tree
19:16:51 <shachaf> What is return-by-reference?
19:16:56 <ais523> Perl parses "x[3]" as a call to the function x whose argument is an anonymous array reference to an array containing only the element 3
19:16:57 <zzo38> BASIC does call by reference normally but you can specify BYVAL if you want by values instead
19:17:08 <shachaf> C++ operator[] returns references which seems like one of the only justifications for having references maybe.
19:17:19 <ais523> but it's actually possible to write this function such that you can make it return the array element as an lvalue, so you can still assign to it
19:17:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's even more strange that perl has had builtins returning magical references, namely vec and substr, before it had user-definable magic scalars
19:17:27 <arseniiv> ais523: come to think of it, this implies that Ⅎ is TC with exactly one pair of parentheses in the whole program => great and neat, I’ll include it in the article with the now obvious s-k proof
19:17:55 <wob_jonas> I think they added that syntax for substr because BASIC had it (at least most dialects, some BASICs don't even have strings)
19:18:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: @_ is magical too, stealing the magic from @_ is a fun way to do programming puzzles
19:19:15 <zzo38> (BYVAL is only valid for numbers though; it cannot be used with strings, structures, or arrays)
19:21:32 <shachaf> So a pointer is a thing whose value is a memory location; an lvalue is a memory location. Is that right?
19:23:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=302287 question 1 and 3, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=376362 exercise 6 IIRC
19:23:26 <shachaf> Or maybe an lvalue is a thing that has a memory location, instead.
19:24:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: in that case, for C pointers to objects and C lvalues, yes, for pointers to functions, usually but not necessarily
19:25:50 <wob_jonas> and the type of the pointer may restrict what memory locations are allowed, but a void * can point to any data or function (except bitfields) and you can losslessly use it that way
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19:26:25 <wob_jonas> and a struct {} * can point to any structure or union (which may be a bit more restrictive on crazy architectures)
19:27:08 <wob_jonas> shachaf: C technically has lvalues to bitfields, and you can't have pointers to them
19:27:59 <wob_jonas> (I hate bitfields, and they'd be basically unusable without lvalues.)
19:28:59 <wob_jonas> obviously, "a memory location" is quite general, because C is defined in such a way that you can store practically anything in a memory location, possibly with some indirection involved
19:29:07 <wob_jonas> because you can allocate new memory locations and put anything in them
19:29:37 <\oren\> char * is actually the most general pointer
19:30:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: I already know how Perl @_ magic works
19:30:04 <ais523> it's possibly more insane than you'd think
19:30:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, I'm just showing some examples of its insane uses
19:30:20 <\oren\> specifically, functions like memcpy take char * not void *
19:30:21 <shachaf> \oren\: did you solve your build system
19:30:24 <ais523> incidentally, the internal implementation of Perl arrays is sufficiently general to allow them to contain other arrays, and even hashes
19:30:30 <ais523> (not references to them, the array/hash itself)
19:30:39 <ais523> but I'm not sure you can make that happen without XS
19:30:42 <wob_jonas> I might not know how insane it is, I know recent perl has specific optimizations to avoid the slowdown with @_'s crazyness in many cases when that's not needed
19:30:51 <\oren\> shachaf: in fact it takes >12 hours now
19:32:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think that would break invariants badly, but otoh arbitrary aliasing of scalars usually doesn't, it only breaks some optimizations, and there are some types of aliasing you can only do with XS or non-core modules.
19:32:16 <ais523> wob_jonas: with that first link, an "intended solution" to question 5 actually got added to the language, presumably after that question was asked
19:33:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: haha, I like the solution to exercise 1 that sets $[
19:33:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: even its implementation? this question allows you to use undocumented features or bugs, and refers to a specific version of perl
19:33:58 <ais523> wob_jonas: it'd be in a later version
19:34:30 <ais523> presumably this was as a replacement for the "my $x if 0;" bug
19:35:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: how do you know what the intended solutions were? I'm not sure xmath ever said explicitly, he only gave hints, and he admitted that people found better solutions for some of the exercises
19:36:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: you're misreading my comment
19:36:18 <ais523> I mean that Perl now has an intentional way to create a static variable lexically scoped to a single subroutine
19:36:28 <wob_jonas> "an" intended solution, not "the" intended solution
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19:44:25 <oerjan> wob_jonas: hm i don't know why HackEso didn't respond to you, then.
19:44:29 <wob_jonas> those crazy old perl puzzles were fun, xmath even credits me with finding an alternate solution he didn't know of
19:45:02 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it might have been an error on my part, like typoing his name (although I think I checked) or messaging him before I identified to freenode
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19:45:30 <wob_jonas> since it did reply to me later in similar conditions, it's probably solved
19:46:14 <wob_jonas> doesn't take twenty seconds to get swapped in like hackeso did
19:47:02 <wob_jonas> I should try to install 7za to it so I can extract compressed files downloaded with `fetch more easily
19:47:19 <wob_jonas> maybe it will work if I tried again
19:47:41 <wob_jonas> but I think there was some incompatibility with system libraries
19:50:08 <wob_jonas> I still can't tell if I should be proud or ashamed of having gotten two consecutive quotes in the hackeso quotedb
19:50:36 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57445&oldid=57424 * Arseniiv * (+269) more about power
19:51:38 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57446&oldid=57445 * Arseniiv * (+6) a single word is worth more than a thousand dollars (no)
19:54:38 <ais523> why is that think "usability unknown"?
19:54:43 <wob_jonas> Totally different topic. I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's pop science book.
19:54:52 <ais523> esoprogrammers are good at using things, if it's TC it's almost certainly usable
19:55:13 <ais523> I guess exceptions could be languages which were inherently very slow, or the like
19:55:14 <arseniiv> why then there is that category?
19:55:28 <ais523> arseniiv: it's for languages where we don't know if you can produce usable programs in them at all
19:55:51 <wob_jonas> For much of the book, he talks about his carreer as the director of a particle accelerator, including being responsible for keeping its budget, and then about convincing president Reagan to fund a more expensive future particle accelerator from state funds.
19:55:55 <ais523> there are some languages which are sub-TC but obviously usable, like finite-tape brainfuck
19:56:12 <ais523> but there are some languages which we're not sure whether they approach any sort of meaningful computational class
19:56:30 <arseniiv> then I’ll delete that category from both Ⅎ and YE…A
19:57:22 <wob_jonas> Then a bit later, he gives the simulee that the Big Bang is a "particle-accelerator without a budget constraint", and explains that astrophisicists are examining its consequences with space-based telescopes and making a model about it and that the physics research for astrophysics and particle physics connects.
19:57:35 <esowiki> [[YEOOIIOOIOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57447&oldid=54939 * Arseniiv * (-31) usability known!
19:58:11 <wob_jonas> Am I the only one who finds the "without budget constraints" part strange? Those space-based telescopes cost a ton of money, and Lenderman must have been familiar with that.
19:58:17 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57448&oldid=57446 * Arseniiv * (-31) it is completely usable when or if implemented
19:58:52 <arseniiv> btw https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Usability_unknown is vague on the topic
19:59:26 <arseniiv> someone should write something clearer, then
19:59:31 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: try https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization , it often gives better desc of the categories
20:00:39 <arseniiv> I remember I’ve read all that thoroughly when writing YE…A article :)
20:01:24 <wob_jonas> I keep reading that page just to remember what categories we use. I've made a page that has nine categories.
20:01:38 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Game_of_Life
20:02:01 <wob_jonas> well, not made, but extended seriously
20:02:42 <wob_jonas> it's still short, but it was even shorter
20:02:53 <wob_jonas> and it's an important language because of its popularity
20:02:58 <arseniiv> btw doesn’t “Turing tarpits” imply “Turing-complete” (categorizationally speaking)?
20:03:28 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, but we still add both categories to most lang pages apparently
20:03:35 <ais523> arseniiv: it does, but I think we decided to put both categories on
20:03:38 <ais523> there was a discussion about it a while back
20:03:50 <wob_jonas> there are a few pages that only have the tarpit, but they might be mistakes
20:03:59 <wob_jonas> like, there are language pages still missing [[Category:Languages]]
20:04:30 <esowiki> [[IPVL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57449&oldid=56995 * Oerjan * (-27) Eviscerate non-category
20:04:42 <wob_jonas> I wish the main namespace was reserved for languages (plus redirects), but we don't want to change that now
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20:05:21 <arseniiv> though they say when Conway got to know High life, he said that in a fair world it should be named the life instead of the usual one
20:05:57 <arseniiv> there are a few pages that only have the tarpit, but they might be mistakes => oh then I’ll add this one too
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> just like how the main namespace of Wiktionary is reserved for headword entries (so much that [[Main Page]] is a redirect IIRC), the one for Wikimedia Commons is reserved for galleries, and the one for wikidata is reserved for entries that aren't even in wikitext format
20:06:28 <arseniiv> and the one for wikidata is reserved for entries that aren't even in wikitext format => :D hehe
20:06:32 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57450&oldid=57159 * Oerjan * (-27) Eviscerate non-category
20:06:48 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: don't believe that to me btw, believe that to ais523 or other trusted people
20:07:56 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: well, it's fair, because that's the main purpose and the largest amount of entries in wikidata, and those entries are still "wiki" in the sense that they're easy to edit by anyone and have full dated version history unfalsifiable by non-admis readable to everyone
20:08:10 <esowiki> [[Printf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57451&oldid=57443 * Oerjan * (-27) No such thing
20:08:48 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: believe that to ais523 or other trusted people => reasonable precaution (however I don’t think you’re that far from the consensus)
20:09:16 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: Commons should probably have had media as its main namespace, but they'd have to modify the mediawiki software for that, which probably wasn't worth the trouble, since media files in their own separate namespace was already supported by default in mediawiki (although commons has some enchancements since)
20:10:51 <wob_jonas> also, Commons isn't as strange as Wikidata: the media still all come with a description page in wikitext format, which can be edited and read and version historied and dump downloaded and categorized independently from the media content, and I believe you can even create a page in the namespace with zero versions of the media content uploaded, only
20:12:38 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: ais and the other wiki admins work hard to enforce the conventions
20:13:04 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: by the way, I wanted to ask, where is your nick from, is there a canon pronunciation, and does the "iiv" part want to be a roman numeral?
20:14:38 <wob_jonas> I'd note that tom7 also calls himself Tom Murphy VII, and explains why on his homepage
20:14:49 <wob_jonas> but iiv isn't a real roman numeral
20:15:38 <wob_jonas> people often ask these questions about nicks of various people online, so it's not too surprising
20:15:58 <esowiki> [[Ackermann function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57452&oldid=57436 * Oerjan * (-213) There's no real difference other than for negatives, so instead change the shorter one to use unsigned.
20:17:46 <wob_jonas> I usually get asked if I named myself of the band called "Jonas Brothers" (no, no relation, I hadn't even heard of them until I started using this nick) or
20:18:07 <wob_jonas> what the "b_" means (nothing much, I just wanted a distinguishing prefix because I previously used "jonas" and still use it on some forums (in the broad sense), but I like the letter "b", it's not too common, and it is the only letter to appear twice in my real world name)
20:18:39 <wob_jonas> They rarely ask how I pronounce it or why "jonas", but sometimes I volunteer to tell the latter anyway.
20:18:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57453&oldid=57433 * Oerjan * (-138) This section is for proofs, let's not add unfinished stuff.
20:19:16 <wob_jonas> Although some forums have a general thread addressing every user in general for what their nick origin is, so that could count.
20:20:21 <wob_jonas> On perlmonks the respective thread was for a while called "the node that must not be linked" because it was too long and so put a large demand on the server when many people clicked on a link to it at the same time
20:20:53 <ais523> hmm, now I wonder how easy it would be to make forum software which worked by editing a static HTML page whenever a comment was posted, incrementally
20:20:57 <wob_jonas> since threads in that forum are hierarchical, but don't have a paging system, so they show every reply up to a certain depth when you load a thread in the default view
20:22:21 * oerjan assumed arseniiv was a russian surname
20:22:33 <wob_jonas> I hate interfaces that have a stupid paging system that shows too few entries of a list and are hard to navigate, in general, not just for forum threads. I understand why you need restrictions on how much you of a list show to conserve server and client resources, but many software are overdoing it.
20:22:36 <arseniiv> originally, it came from my first name Arseni[i] and a letter from a patronymic (IDK why I did that, it was long ago), *but* it’s completely normal to read it as arseni⋅iv, as when it’s a Roman numeral (but what would it mean? It could mean anything or just itself, I don’t mean)
20:22:36 <arseniiv> and for the pronunciation part, I myself use something like /arsʲenʲiˈiv/ (whch is somewhat strange as my name is stressed on the second syllable)
20:23:36 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: besides tom7, ais523 and sam512 use numerals in their nick. (sam512 has changed his nick to qntm since). it's sort of common to use numerals in nicks.
20:24:01 <arseniiv> oerjan: haha maybe there is one like this
20:24:09 <wob_jonas> Arsenii is a given name? interesting
20:24:42 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: he doesn't, and he's not related to esolangs
20:25:26 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: he's mostly known as a sci-fi writer who publishes short story series online, and has an old webcomic, his homepage is http://qntm.org/
20:25:46 <wob_jonas> but he has a presence on the internet and reacts to emails and comments and messages
20:25:58 <oerjan> wob_jonas: well it looks russian, and he is.
20:26:26 <arseniiv> I wrote him a email once, but I fear it was considered spam, as he hadn’t replied
20:28:30 <wob_jonas> ok, maybe he only _used to_ react to emails, but he still gives his email address on https://qntm.org/contact and reacts to comments on his webpage. What he has redacted is (what I presume is) his real name.
20:28:45 <wob_jonas> And also the old alias "sam523" from qntm now.
20:28:57 <wob_jonas> you can still find traces to it in some links, but they're better hidden.
20:29:29 <arseniiv> yes he seemed to write it was his name
20:30:02 <wob_jonas> I dunno why he does that, since people know him under both of those, and this makes it harder to use a web search to find his webpage based on them (though probably still not too hard)
20:30:38 <wob_jonas> I know them under those names from back when he used both and haven't started using qntm as a nick
20:31:09 <wob_jonas> on the other hand, David Madore uses three names too, but is pretty public about all three of them
20:31:14 <arseniiv> IIRC he was posting Ed stories somewhere as if it was a diary, so a reader doesn’t suspect it’s a story (unles she have read other ones) and then woah! is it real?
20:31:40 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: um... what do you mean it is real? I'm quite sure they're fictional
20:32:01 <wob_jonas> and I don't think he ever claimed they weren't, out of universe
20:32:39 <arseniiv> I mean he used a trope when eh I don’t know how it’s descripted in a small count of words
20:32:52 <wob_jonas> he posted them on everything2 originally, and I think he still uses the nick sam512 there, plus he has a story about a robot called "sam512", and mentions his real name in his webcomic among others
20:33:27 <arseniiv> the one about robot was after all that, wasn’t it?
20:34:20 <arseniiv> btw I don’t get hyperlinking in everything2
20:36:26 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: it's an odd system, yes. but then consider how mandatory automatic hyperlinks to CamelCase words and recommended CamelCase page titles was quite popular back then, eg. the c3 wiki, tiki wiki, and IIRC Wikipedia at its start did that too, and it's a pretty stupid idea, and tiki wiki's stupid formatter rules make it even worse
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20:38:31 <wob_jonas> in particular, tiki wiki has several automatic formatting features that come up too often in normal text where you don't want them, but it's hard to escape them, because you have to use a bang prefix to escape them, and you have to know the precise formatter rules because if you add a bang prefix to anything that wouldn't be special formatting, it
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20:38:55 <arseniiv> I was to say, last time I’ve seen it, there were links to common words, and what they mean is a mystery until you follow them
20:39:02 <wob_jonas> these features being at least automatic CamelCase links, superscript formatting of text between carets, and some bracketed stuff
20:39:46 <arseniiv> although CamelCase links are definitely not a great idea, agree
20:40:16 <wob_jonas> mediawiki has much fewer of these stupid formatting features that stand in your way, and much better ways to escape them, although formatting everything indented with spaces as pre blocks is probably a mistake in mediawiki
20:40:44 <arseniiv> bang bang my wiki shot me down
20:40:47 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: they wouldn't be such a bad idea if they were easier to escape, or if they only showed up when the page exists and when you're previewing a page you're editing.
20:41:23 <wob_jonas> the problem is that no wiki is perfect, and most of them are very hard on the system administrators that have to run them, harder than on useres
20:41:51 <arseniiv> (btw how good do you think is Markdown (with common extras) for wikis?)
20:42:55 <wob_jonas> and I've seen many different types of wikis, including two different ones I used as an internal wiki at my previous job, although only from the user and a bit from the moderator side, not from the system administrator side
20:43:54 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I don't much like Markdown, and I specifically dislike the StackExchange formatter, which is based on it but changed a lot, but it's better than some other wikis, and still better than tiki wiki
20:45:00 <wob_jonas> I especially hate the variants of the formatter that StackExchange uses for chat lines and for comments resp (as opposed to questions and answers)
20:46:30 <zzo38> I don't like Markdown much either; I like the MediaWiki format
20:47:27 <wob_jonas> What I particularly like in MediaWiki is that it allows you to fall back to a large subset of HTML syntax for when its other syntax are hard to use for the formatting you want. I think zzo38 doesn't like this part.
20:48:09 <wob_jonas> This is convenient because the HTML syntax is sometimes more general, and many people already know enough of it to be able to use some of it on mediawiki without having to read that part of mediawiki manual.
20:48:36 <ais523> wob_jonas: this is also the intended way to do anything nontrivial in Markdown
20:48:37 <wob_jonas> StackExchange's Markdown supports only a smaller subset of HTML, although that is partly deliberate, to restrict what formatting you're allowed to use.
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20:48:43 <ais523> which defeats one of the main points of Markdown
20:49:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know. I think it's a good idea for a wiki formatting language in general, it's just that Markdown's goals are stupid.
20:49:25 <ais523> IMO there are three major goals in a markup syntax: a) be easy/fast to write, b) be readable in the raw markup without rendering it (ideally the markup should look very like the end result), c) be fully general
20:49:45 <ais523> markdown fails somewhat at all three
20:49:59 <ais523> although its main high point is a) as long as you're doing simple things
20:50:22 <ais523> I think it might be interesting to create one that goes all-in on b) and c), perhaps even using things like trailing whitespace to disambiguate
20:50:36 <wob_jonas> If (or when) I design a wiki syntax, then I'll make it mostly based on HTML, with some convenient shorthands like in mediawiki, but even more than mediawiki, because I'll add fewer convenience shortcuts, and I'll make the syntax of custom additions be similar in syntax to HTML.
20:51:06 <wob_jonas> The Everything2/Perlmonks formatters (one is derived from the other) are aligned to that goal, but the execution isn't perfect.
20:51:34 <ais523> come to think of it, POD does very well at a), and better at b) and c) than Markdown does
20:51:48 <wob_jonas> In particular, perlmonks has bracket links, which is good, and convenient custom syntax for both inline code and block code, which is good on a site that discusses a programming language,
20:51:50 <zzo38> Fossil wiki format doesn't support HTML comments or macros; MediaWiki does both, and I think such thing should be added into Fossil as well
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20:52:39 <zzo38> (The system administrator could define macros by use of SQL codes and TH1 codes; if other users define macros then more restrictive SQL codes can be used.)
20:53:56 <wob_jonas> but the bracket links trigger too easily, which is bad, and the format was made before unicode was introduced, so its source can only contain cp1252, of which the gravest consequence is that you can't put non-cp1252 characters in code (inline or block).
20:54:26 <oerjan> <arseniiv> oh no it’s actually unlogged! <-- yeah esowiki or Mediawiki strips out most unicode from the announcements for some reason
20:55:00 <wob_jonas> In perlmonks, bracket links, special tags "c" and "code" and "spoiler" and "readmore", that aren't just a subset of HTML with restrictions for technical and policy reasons.
20:55:28 <wob_jonas> s/that aren't/are the only formatter features that aren't/
20:56:46 <wob_jonas> And bracket links almost always trigger if you use a shortest sequence of left square bracket then square bracket.
20:57:23 <wob_jonas> This causes problems especially in chat, because you have to escape indexes like [0] or [$x], which are common in perl code.
20:57:35 <wob_jonas> you can use the convenient c and code tags for them, but still
20:58:48 <zzo38> Fossil wiki has the same problem, although you can use the <verbatim> command and you can also use HTML character entity codes.
20:59:25 <zzo38> (The <verbatim> command in Fossil wiki also can use numbers such as <verbatim-1> so that it can work even if the text contains </verbatim> or </verbatim-1> or whatever)
20:59:39 <wob_jonas> There's also the popular bbcode, which is mostly popularized by phpbb now, and which has various different variants, which I think is also worse than mediawiki syntax but better than tikiwiki.
20:59:48 <zzo38> I think that feature is good and should be added into MediaWiki and bbcode too.
20:59:54 <wob_jonas> I use multiple phpbb-based forums regularly, so I meet that a lot.
21:01:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: nice. TikiWiki has a sort of nice solution for code by the way: surround it with triple brackets. perlmonks's is similar: surround it with <c>...</c> or <code>...</code>, case insensitive but whitespace sensitive, and is automatically a code block if it has newlines in it, inline code otherwise.
21:02:17 <zzo38> Then what if the code contains triple brackets?
21:02:30 <zzo38> (For example, if you are showing a example of a TikiWiki code)
21:03:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think it has more tricky formatting mechanisms too, but I'm not sure. perhaps not in TikiWiki, but there would be in a well-designed wiki, and I think the triple braces aren't exclusive to tiki
21:03:15 <zzo38> Fossil wiki also allows you to disable all wiki formatting for a wiki page, in case you want to use text only.
21:03:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's useful for importing large amounts of data that is not wiki-formatted
21:04:24 <wob_jonas> it would be even nicer if there was some automatic way to upgrade such a page to wiki-formatted so you can add formatted parts
21:04:45 <wob_jonas> I mean, automatically creating a wiki-format text that is mostly equivalent with the plain text
21:05:01 <wob_jonas> but that might need some tricky heuristics if you want to use it nicely
21:05:24 <wob_jonas> because you don't just want to escape the whole text usually, that makes it hard to add formatting
21:05:25 <zzo38> You could perhaps use an external program to do that, I suppose; the Fossil command-line interface can then be used together with it in order to post the changed file.
21:07:00 <wob_jonas> I hope ais523 will eventually write a vcs that's better than the existing ones.
21:07:17 <wob_jonas> But both designing and implementing one are very hard tasks.
21:07:28 <ais523> I've got some distance with the designing
21:07:33 <wob_jonas> Even if you don't do it from scratch, but use existing vcses.
21:07:40 <ais523> but haven't started implementing and it'd take way too long
21:07:49 <wob_jonas> but I also know that both parts are difficult
21:08:59 <wob_jonas> I have multiple requirements that interact in ways that I don't even know how to define a combined semantics that satisfies all of them.
21:09:55 <wob_jonas> Oh by the way, I'd like to add one more request to the vcs, and this one I think is easy to implement regardless everything else:
21:11:26 <wob_jonas> make the official reference documentation available in some collected form such as a manpage or directory of html page like mercurial does, but unlike svn, which only provides it as the outputs of various svn --help commands and unlike hg it's not even easy to discover which such outputs exist.
21:12:14 <wob_jonas> I want to collect all the svn help outputs in the future, it seems feasable but haven't yet done it. I already know you need at least two depths of recursion from the root.
21:12:47 <wob_jonas> hg help lists all the help pages right in the top-level hg help message, and collects all of it in the manpage. that's the Right Thing to do
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21:14:01 <wob_jonas> even worse examples are ImageMagick and ffmpeg, but they partly do that because of a lot of pluggable parts developed partly independently (although distributed together) and not enough resources to document them properly
21:15:06 <wob_jonas> On the plus side, svn has a C api that is documented and is even more stable on the long therm than the command-line, plus lots of other features I like in it.
21:15:13 <ais523> wob_jonas: one thing I realised is that the name "scapegoat" is awkward as "sg" already exists
21:15:19 <wob_jonas> I like svn (Apache Subversion is the official name) in general
21:15:28 <ais523> and the obvious solution is a separate executable per command, "sg-commit" or whatever
21:15:42 <ais523> (or just symlinks to a single executable)
21:15:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: or you can use that as the developer codename, and give it a different official name
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21:15:53 <wob_jonas> what is the sg that already exists?
21:15:54 <ais523> that'd also have the advantage of man pages working in a really simple way
21:15:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: like su but for groups
21:16:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: as long as you have a single-level index manpage, that's fine
21:16:43 <ais523> nowadays very few people have permission setups complex enough for sg to be useful, although it is necessary in those cases where you need it
21:16:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, if possible, ALSO make the docs available as an online webpage, which is useful for windows users, because it's hard to find a working man reader for win32
21:17:19 <ais523> aimake will generate man pages on UNIX and HTML files on Windows from the same sources
21:17:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's fine if you have a 1-depth index for them too in both formats
21:18:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: git in theory has its manpages online as HTML, but they messed it up, and some automatically generated parts of the manpages are missing from it. perl has made the same mistake with the perl core and cpan, but there's now a separate http://perldoc.perl.org/ webpage associated with them
21:20:36 <wob_jonas> also, a lot of software, including perl and svn, has some docs that they claim are only for developers of the project itself and so are only distributed in the source code and not collected together with the main docs, but some of which would actually be useful for non-devs and would be easy to add to the normal set of docs
21:21:06 <wob_jonas> I mean, that's partly unavoidable, because sometimes you want developer docs and there's a lot of unmaintained junk in it
21:21:18 <wob_jonas> but still, you have to be careful with it
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21:22:35 <wob_jonas> at least since svn is a version control system, it's also self-hosting now, and they run a web service for reading its official version control repository, and you can see the developer docs there
21:24:16 <zzo38> SQLite does put the developer documents that are also useful for other uses too are also made available outside of the source codes, such as the document of the SQLite file format and the document of the VDBE opcodes.
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21:24:44 <wob_jonas> also, I've said this already, and I don't have an immediate need for this, but it would be nice if you put a clear declaration into your official version of ayacc that it is distributed under some free software license, just like you did with uncursed and aimake
21:24:53 <ais523> the file format isn't just internals, though, it's also important for interoperability
21:25:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm not sure if the license on ayacc is decided yet? I'm trying to remember
21:25:29 <ais523> there's no logical reason I can think of not to make it GPLv3 though
21:25:41 <wob_jonas> that, plus the file format is important to estimate some things about how much disk space and disk access and cpu certain workloads use
21:25:44 <ais523> still, I have a job right now (for complicated technical reasons I only work on ayacc while unemployed)
21:26:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: last I've seen, it wasn't, but I think you have made a declaration that's somewhere in the #esoteric logs, which could sort of work in a pinch
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21:26:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: ayacc declares that all code snippets that go into the generated output are under public domain,
21:27:03 <wob_jonas> but doesn't declare a license for the rest of the code
21:27:07 <ais523> yes, that's obviously necessary, unless it's implicit
21:27:14 <ais523> so I would have written it out of habit
21:27:36 <wob_jonas> yes, and that declaration still helps
21:27:47 <wob_jonas> since it lets me more easily distribute a program that uses vanilla ayacc
21:28:04 <wob_jonas> I can distribute the ayacc output with it so people don't have to run it
21:28:29 <wob_jonas> not that I have such a program yet, but still
21:28:44 <wob_jonas> even for what I want to write, I could probably use bison
21:31:02 <ais523> a bison/ayacc polyglot is fairly easy
21:31:13 <ais523> although ayacc has some non-bison features you might want to use
21:32:03 <wob_jonas> yes, and ayacc generates nicer code output, and ayacc is easier to modify in certain ways that I might want to change, such as adding a new output language or language variant, or adding an extension to its syntax
21:32:19 <wob_jonas> but only in vague plans that I might not ever do
21:32:27 <ais523> the output isn't as nice as I'd like yet
21:32:32 <ais523> it's also probably slower than bison noutput
21:32:48 <wob_jonas> candidates for language variants are rust and stackless C
21:33:23 <wob_jonas> as for the extensions, I'll probably have to talk to you about what's feasable and what isn't already possible in ayacc before I try
21:35:41 <wob_jonas> I'm sort of thinking an extension where I have a language where some production rules are such that they cause shift-reduce conflicts, and I want to be able to write a proof whose checking is assisted by ayacc that despite this, you can express "any valid parse tree" in the language with some easy automatable transformations of the input, turning i
21:35:41 <wob_jonas> t to a subset of the language that has no shift-reduce conflicts but can still express anything.
21:36:03 <wob_jonas> Such production rules would be ones that allow eliding parenthesis and similar markers to disambiguate precedence.
21:36:37 <wob_jonas> I think something like that is possible, but I don't have the details completely thought out.
21:37:44 <ais523> that seems like an interesting goal but one that's quite different from ayacc's, so if you added it to ayacc you'd essentially just have two different programs bolted together
21:37:46 <wob_jonas> In particular, it's easy to remove the production rules I mark and test if the remaining language has no shift-reduce conflicts, but you also need a way to annotate why you believe it can express any parse tree and check its proof,
21:38:01 <ais523> although unlike bison, ayacc does have the concept of a production being a no-op, e.g. "(a)" and "a" being equivalent
21:38:02 <wob_jonas> and ideally also generate a program that does the transformation on any input.
21:39:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think it's that different from ayacc, since ayacc already must be able to verify that a language has no shift-reduce conflicts (with false positives, but here too I want to support only proofs of specific form), and it can already parse the description of a grammar to some form it can manipulate, so automatically removing some marke
21:39:34 <wob_jonas> d productions would be easy if you extended the syntax.
21:39:48 <wob_jonas> That's the easy part. The hard part might still be difficult to design and implement.
21:40:26 <ais523> well, I think what would probably be most usable for this would be that, when a conflict is automatically resolved, ayacc could determine whether there was always a way to force the conflict into the other resolution
21:40:30 <wob_jonas> It might not be ayacc's goal, but since ayacc has readable code for these tasks, it would help implementing this.
21:40:36 <ais523> although that'd be useful even with manually resolved conflicts, I guess
21:40:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm thinking of various manual annotations in the grammar for this.
21:40:57 <wob_jonas> It doesn't have to be full automatic.
21:41:18 <wob_jonas> It could also have escape hatches for ambiguities that you can't prove with the annotation language, but prove manually.
21:42:50 <wob_jonas> Like, an annotation would be that I claim that a particular production like {expr -> expr '+' expr} can always be disambiguated by putting parenthesis around it.
21:43:13 <ais523> perhaps the report could say something like "'expr PLUS expr . TIMES': shift/reduce ambiguity resolved as SHIFT, alternative available as '( expr PLUS expr ) . TIMES'"
21:43:14 <wob_jonas> Where in the annotation I tell which "parenthesis" that is.
21:44:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: well, in very simple cases it might be possible to annotate, but I want it on grammars more trivial than just infix operators with different precedence and parenthesis, for in such simple languages, a proof by hand is also easy
21:44:29 <wob_jonas> s/possible to annotate/possible to automate/
21:44:41 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm thinking about this idea: look for a no-op rule that can be placed on the LHS in order to make it reduce rather than shift
21:45:17 <ais523> doing it the other way round (i.e. to make it shift rather than reduce) is harder because ayacc thinks left to right, so it doesn't have any concept of the place where the closing paren would have to go
21:45:34 <wob_jonas> I need it for cases where from the grammar it's not even obvious that a certain construct means the same as another construct, because it's not implemented by a pass-through rule, either because it's not a primitive construct but a consequence of multiple rules, or because we add debug information that shouldn't change semantics.
21:46:04 <ais523> yes, I think automation would have to rely on pass-through rules
21:46:10 <wob_jonas> Because of debug information, you can write a no-op rule in a way that ayacc doesn't know is a no-op rule
21:46:12 <ais523> I'm not getting ayacc to parse and understand arbitrary semantic actions ;-)
21:46:43 <wob_jonas> The other case comes up for uglier things like some C++ ambiguities, although C++ might be too ugly to produce such an annotated proof.
21:47:14 <wob_jonas> C++ has reduce/reduce ambiguities and other things that are hard to handle with an LR parser.
21:47:34 <wob_jonas> C++ syntax is terribly complicated to even parse correctly these days.
21:47:41 <wob_jonas> even compilers don't always agree on how it works
21:47:54 <zzo38> Is it a full LR parser or a LALR parser? (I don't like C++ syntax; it is too messy)
21:47:59 <HackEso> olist 1137: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
21:48:17 <wob_jonas> I still don't understand how a certain template syntax construct is supposed to be parsed, although I think the new versions of the standard clarify it, the standard is just too complicated.
21:48:35 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57454&oldid=57448 * Ais523 * (+248) /* Power */ PDA without parens
21:49:18 <wob_jonas> hmm... why don't I see the page title in the esowiki bot's change announcement
21:50:05 <ais523> esowiki isn't very good at Unicode
21:50:42 <zzo38> If it does not support Unicode, then use the percent encoding of the URL.
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21:51:40 <wob_jonas> you can make an URL to a mediawiki page without even mentioning any escaped form of its name, in at least two ways: by its unique page ID and the change ID of any version of it
21:52:36 <wob_jonas> this is handy for pages of whose escaped title would be too long
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21:54:10 <wob_jonas> and those two IDs are mentioned in the mediawiki dumps and the api.php output and you can refer to them in the api.php interface, so there's a high chance that they can be preserved or at least tracked to a fork or dump of a wiki
21:54:23 <wob_jonas> mediawiki does a lot of things well
21:54:49 <wob_jonas> it's a pity it's implemented in php :-)
21:55:09 <wob_jonas> it was implemented in php before php even became a sane programming language
21:55:36 <wob_jonas> dunno why anyone would do that, I guess they didn't know that mediawiki will be so popular and have so many plugins
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21:58:07 <zzo38> I would want a SQLite virtual table extension to access remote MediaWiki files. (You can then make a copy of the wiki by the use of INSERT INTO ... SELECT command.)
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21:58:51 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you could write such an extension, at least for mediawiki instances where the api.php is enabled for at least read use
21:59:01 <wob_jonas> (not all mediawikis have it enabled)
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21:59:44 <wob_jonas> obviously you couldn't access data that's hidden by administrators, such as user passwords and deleted versions, but that's on purpose
21:59:46 <zzo38> I would want to support incremental updates, but I don't know if the MediaWiki API supports that.
22:00:10 <zzo38> I know of course there is no need copying user passwords (or any other user data other than user pages, since your own copy will have its own users).
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22:00:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: otoh I believe there are already tools for MediaWiki that allow you to copy a remote wiki, and even output it into a new MediaWiki
22:00:50 <ais523> zzo38: the MediaWiki API basically just does queries against the database, but from a predefined subset of queries (those which won't cause excess database load)
22:01:06 <ais523> "batch" operations are supposed to be done on downloadable database dumps
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22:01:15 <wob_jonas> besides api.php, there's also the older [[special:export]] and [[special:import]] , but they can do somewhat less
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22:02:55 <ais523> those are still widely used for moving pages between wikis
22:03:00 <ais523> say if they got created in the wrong place
22:03:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and now some of the bigger wikimedia projects also have incremental dumps to preserve server resources (although you could already simulate them on client side with api.php); plus a so-called "tool server", which are servers that have a frequently updated decompressed copy of the projects and where they give shell access to people they
22:03:26 <zzo38> Sometimes you only want a few files, so using API can be used too
22:03:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and they're also useful for simple batch downloading of some pages for analysis or conversion
22:04:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: but the api.php can do much more, and has a reasonably well documented and usable interface, at least for the read-only part
22:04:08 <wob_jonas> I haven't yet used the write part I think
22:05:28 <wob_jonas> I don't like how it's called "the API", since there's nothing really exclusive in it, it's just a very good coherent subset of API that exists, so I call it the "api.php interface"
22:05:49 <ais523> wob_jonas: well it's the API because it's the official public endpoint for automated queries
22:05:50 <wob_jonas> but naming something "the API" is a fault some other projects commit too
22:05:53 <ais523> which is what an API is
22:06:16 <zzo38> It can be called "remote API" maybe is better
22:06:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: the dumps are also an official public endpoint for automated queries
22:07:22 <wob_jonas> in fact index.php and its CGI parameters are well-documented, and it puts a lot of extra info in invisible HTML stuff, so it's also an official public endpoint
22:07:27 <ais523> but not interactive, which I guess is part of a requirement for an API and I simply didn't realise it until writing this sentence
22:07:42 <wob_jonas> plus there's the printable format which also helps and is quite official
22:08:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: perhaps the interactive part is reasonable, it's hard to call it "application" otherwise
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22:32:58 <HackEso> aglist 611: b_jonas shachaf
22:33:13 <shachaf> I don't think listing on every update is necessary, but maybe when there hasn't been one in a while.
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22:48:24 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I don't think the semantics of "continue" in the C standard is correct.
22:49:14 <shachaf> wob_jonas: It says that in "while (/* ... */) { /* ... */ continue; /* ... */ contin: ; }", "continue" is equivalent to "goto contin".
22:49:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what do you mean by not correct?
22:49:35 <shachaf> But if the /* ... */ after "continue" declares a variable-length array, that's invalid.
22:49:53 <shachaf> I mean it's not what they're intending, and what everyone implements.
22:49:54 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and isn't continue also invalid then?
22:50:29 <shachaf> I guess it is according to the standard.
22:51:06 <shachaf> Never mind what I said about correctness.
22:51:31 <wob_jonas> C really doesn't like to have implicit destructors when a variable or temporary goes out of scope, and that's one of the main differences from C++, and exiting from the scope of a variable length array would require calling an implicit destructor in the implementation
22:52:13 <wob_jonas> especially if expect to repeatedly enter that scope in a loop, so the variable length array has to be recreated an arbitrary number of times with different sizes
22:52:41 <wob_jonas> normally at the end of a function, you can free the space for all vararg arrays as easily as you free temp stack space for ordinary variables
22:52:47 <wob_jonas> obviously this depends on the target arch
22:55:10 <wob_jonas> of course, a compiled function might still need to explicitly save and restore some registers, but most cpus that C target are built around that concept and many give convenient ways to do that
22:56:00 <wob_jonas> well, it has implementation optimizations for saving registers to the stack in some ways
22:56:22 <wob_jonas> and addressing modes to access the stack easily
22:56:27 <shachaf> I think the actual meaning most people imagine and most compilers implement for "continue" would be closer to "while (/* ... */) { { /* ... */ continue; /* ... */ } contin: ; }
22:57:12 <shachaf> The extra block around the body.
22:57:19 <wob_jonas> yes, but what's the semantic difference
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22:57:44 <shachaf> If it declares a variable-length then its lifetime is the inner block
22:58:04 <wob_jonas> yes, but wouldn't the lifetime end immediately after the goto anyway?
22:58:17 <shachaf> goto after the declaration of a variable-length array isn't permitted.
22:59:05 <wob_jonas> I think there's a good reason for that, but I don't really like C VLAs in first place
22:59:45 <wob_jonas> many people don't like VLAs in C, so I think the people who insisted on adding it had to make some reasonable compromises for how much they can do
23:00:05 <zzo38> I don't like it either
23:00:24 <zzo38> GNU C has zero-length arrays though, which are sometimes helpful.
23:01:11 <wob_jonas> I especially don't like stack-allocated VLAs, and only somewhat don't like VLA function parameters
23:01:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: zero-length arrays are nice in theory, and it's good that rust supports them and other zero-length objects specially, but I don't think they're a good idea in C,
23:02:34 <wob_jonas> because allowing them causes incompatibilities in existing programs that use the nonexistance of zero-length arrays as a replacement for the newer static_assert, such as in macros
23:03:12 <wob_jonas> you can still use negative length arrays for that, and some other portable tricks, but old programs don't know that they have to
23:03:28 <wob_jonas> programs targeting only newer compilers should use static_assert of course
23:03:35 <zzo38> You can tell GCC to compile in the old mode if you want to though
23:03:37 <wob_jonas> but C wants to preserve compatibility hard
23:03:43 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's true, but still
23:03:49 <wob_jonas> it's an error that's easy to make accidentally
23:04:30 <wob_jonas> it's not even easy to put a warning that catches it, even in a smart compiler, with it mostly coming from macros
23:05:53 <wob_jonas> a lesser problem is that it also breaks some invariants that some macros might try to rely on, such as that every object has a sizeof at least 1.
23:07:10 <wob_jonas> that's also why maxint_t is a bad design: it has to be fixed in an abi, and can't be increased when the language or abi adds a larger integer type, which is why even though gnu cc has 128-bit integers, maxint_t is 64-bit.
23:07:44 <wob_jonas> mind you, technically neither contradicts the standard, since they can just claim that 128-bit integers aren't an integer type, it's just a type similar to integer types, but still
23:08:43 <shachaf> Oh, the C++ standard has it right, it puts an extra block around the loop body before the label.
23:09:53 <wob_jonas> I have a similar smaller problem with the current proposal for making void a real type in programs: it allows programs to overload the comma operator with void as an argument and a user-defined class as another argument, but existing macros or generic functions can rely on that such overloads can't exist, and using the comma operator with a void va
23:09:53 <wob_jonas> lue (in either order) is useful in generic code.
23:10:04 <wob_jonas> This is also something that you can work around in new code, but it's ugly.
23:10:27 <wob_jonas> Luckily that one could be fixed by changing the proposal slightly to forbid such overloads, but the current proposal doesn't do that.
23:11:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: like I said, that's because there's a genuine goal difference between C and C++ about implicit destructors. C wants to forbid them, C++ wants to allow them as much as it can
23:12:13 <wob_jonas> although I'm still not sure what difference the inner braces make in C++
23:12:53 <wob_jonas> but at least it's plausible to me that C++ may have a difference there that isn't present in C
23:14:00 <shachaf> The difference is that any destructors for variables declared in the inner block will run at the end of that block.
23:14:26 <shachaf> Or, well, that's a bad description.
23:14:29 <wob_jonas> well, scope braces in C++ affect implicit destructors of variables and temporaries, and C doesn't have such implicit destructors, so maybe I'm missing some obscure case in C++ where the braces matter
23:14:36 <shachaf> The difference is that it doesn't goto past any variable declaration.
23:14:51 <wob_jonas> oh, so the problem is _constructors_, not destructors
23:15:16 <shachaf> The destructors get run at the end of the block, so you can't have the variables uninitialized.
23:15:32 <wob_jonas> C also doesn't have variable constructors, other than for variadic-length arrays, and so doesn't forbid gotoing past a variable declaration, whereas C++ forbids that
23:15:59 <wob_jonas> wouldn't destructors already be ran because of the outer close braces?
23:18:44 <shachaf> If you write "{ A a; if (p) goto exit; B b; } exit:", then when p is true, it'll run A(), B(), ~B(), ~A()
23:18:53 <shachaf> And when p is false, it'll run A(), ~A()
23:19:37 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you've already convinced me that it's useful to add the extra brace in C++
23:19:53 <shachaf> Then the same issue exists in C with VLAs.
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23:20:51 <wob_jonas> I just still claim it's not useful in C, because it probably only makes a difference for VLAs and some nonstandard extensions, and there's a good reason to forbid continuing a loop with a VLA declared in it in C because that would need an implicit destructor in practice
23:21:40 <wob_jonas> but I guess you're right that it's already allowed with the inner braces in C
23:21:45 <wob_jonas> so perhaps it could be allowed with continue too
23:22:10 <wob_jonas> you could ask on ##C, they're friendly and good at such questions
23:22:38 <wob_jonas> and doesn't always answer every question you ask
23:22:54 <wob_jonas> but it usually doesn't hate people who are not newbies to IRC for asking questions about the C standard
23:23:16 <wob_jonas> I trust you know the general guidelines about asking a question on IRC
23:23:33 <wob_jonas> they don't like off-topic questions or newbies that don't keep common IRC ethics
23:23:50 <wob_jonas> and they don't answer every question, but that would be hard to expect from even the best channels
23:24:30 <wob_jonas> also, don't ask questions directly about differences between C++ and C in either ##C or ##C++, they don't like each other's language
23:24:56 <wob_jonas> many of the regulars passionately hate the other language
23:25:30 <wob_jonas> so it probably makes sense to ask this question above here in #esoteric
23:25:48 <wob_jonas> but you could phrase it in such a way that it's only about C vlas without mentioning C++, and ask in ##C
23:26:47 <wob_jonas> both channels also don't like questions about nonstandard extensions or libraries that aren't the standard library or system-dependent questions
23:27:11 <wob_jonas> they want to think that the standards exist in a vacuum and don't care about practical work in the language
23:27:31 <wob_jonas> so there are questions you can't easily ask anywhere because it's off-topic between the cracks on every good channel
23:28:16 <wob_jonas> mind you, there are some other channels on freenode that help in some of those questions
23:28:49 <wob_jonas> but some questions are still hard to find a good channel for
23:29:06 <wob_jonas> that's why channels that are geeky but not very on-topic are useful
23:29:53 <wob_jonas> #rubik is better for vim questions than ##vim actually
23:30:40 <wob_jonas> on the flip side, some channels are so off-topic that it's hard to get answers to on-topic questions on them
23:32:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, #esoteric is relatively good for getting answers about esoteric programming languages
23:32:37 <wob_jonas> have you tried #English ? it rarely answers questions about the English language, and keeps talking about world politics and stuff like that instead
23:33:26 <wob_jonas> #esoteric and #rubik are at least 80% off-topic talk, but it still handles on-topic questions well
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23:34:09 <wob_jonas> that's a good thing, it means the channels are useful as a community, not just for answering questions about a topic
23:34:17 <wob_jonas> I always like when internet forums serve such a purpose
23:34:35 <wob_jonas> and many others do, and those are the places I frequent
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01:09:34 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnMEI4aoUfo
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01:47:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57455&oldid=57444 * A * (+41) /* Categorization */
01:49:32 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57456&oldid=57434 * A * (+23)
01:49:50 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57457&oldid=57456 * A * (+0) Mispelling
01:53:32 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57458&oldid=57457 * A * (+37)
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01:54:38 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57459&oldid=57458 * A * (+0)
01:57:14 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57460&oldid=57459 * A * (+200)
01:58:39 <Sgeo_> Oh cool, a Commodore BASIC quine:
01:59:32 <Sgeo_> https://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm calls that one a cheat
02:00:16 <zzo38> Many interactive BASIC interpreters support that, I think?
02:00:42 <Sgeo_> I'm not very familiar with BASIC, I'm mostly learning due to my unexpected interest in Commodore 64
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02:13:47 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57461&oldid=57460 * A * (+448)
02:14:20 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57462&oldid=57461 * A * (-28)
02:15:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57463&oldid=57453 * A * (+138) I am finished now. (Just un-checked)
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02:21:41 <Sgeo_> Someone wrote a virus for an OS for Commodore 64
02:21:49 <Sgeo_> "I have not provided an executable for obvious reasons; it you want to try it out, you'll have to figure out a way to build it yourself."
02:22:40 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57464&oldid=57462 * A * (+80) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */
02:24:18 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57465&oldid=57464 * A * (+86) /* Try Again */
02:27:29 <zzo38> How to add your own commands into the Z: drive in DOSBOX?
02:28:10 <Sgeo_> I thought those were hardcoded?
02:28:21 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57466&oldid=57465 * A * (+19) Check again for bad english
02:28:55 <Sgeo_> Unless you modify DOSBox itself I guess
02:30:44 <Sgeo_> zzo38, here's the area where Z: programs are added
02:30:45 <Sgeo_> https://github.com/Henne/dosbox-svn/blob/ac06986809899ea5f922cb29a194e0770169e1ad/src/dos/dos_programs.cpp#L1634
02:31:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57467&oldid=57463 * A * (+0) And a mispelled word
02:32:00 <zzo38> I want to add my own files; is it possible to add another drive and add into the PATH automatically in all DOS sessions, to add my own commands?
02:32:33 <Sgeo_> Yes, that's much easier
02:32:44 <Sgeo_> dosbox.conf has an autoexec section
02:32:45 <zzo38> I mean the files are external programs rather than being built-in commands
02:34:45 <zzo38> What will DOSBOX do if a DOS program tries to set the date/time?
02:34:45 <Sgeo_> https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=23611 see the third post
02:34:59 <Sgeo_> "Are you sure that you want to? It's easier to just add PATH=Z:\;C:\DOSUTILS to the [autoexec] portion of your DOSBox configuration file, where C:\DOSUTILS refers to a real subfolder on a mounted "c drive." "
02:35:15 <Sgeo_> (And you can add mount commands there as well)
02:36:01 <zzo38> Yes, that can be done, OK
02:37:18 <zzo38> Is printer redirection possible in DOSBOX? Is it possible to connect COM1/LPT1/etc to files and TCP/IP connections?
02:39:08 <zzo38> Also is there any way to perform a video memory dump?
02:39:38 <Sgeo_> DOSBox supports turning some old protocol (IPX) into TCP/IP connections, not sure how.
02:39:48 <Sgeo_> Printing's probably easier
02:43:08 <zzo38> I mean just to write the printer output to a file, and then an external program can be used to convert ESC/P to DVI or whatever is needed.
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03:52:06 <Sgeo_> "It's also not possible to store a GEOS file on a remote internet site because chances are that site knows nothing about how a GEOS file is constructed."
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08:30:49 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57468&oldid=57466 * A * (+194) Some comments
08:34:09 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57469&oldid=57468 * A * (+243)
08:34:50 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57470&oldid=57469 * A * (-8)
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08:41:08 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57471&oldid=57470 * A * (+8) Undo revision 57470 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
08:41:21 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57472&oldid=57471 * A * (-243) Undo revision 57469 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
08:41:43 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57473&oldid=57472 * A * (-194) Undo revision 57468 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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09:06:11 <Sgeo__> I don't think DOSBox is the best way to emulate Commodore DOS
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10:34:04 <int-e> @check \xs -> reverse xs == xs
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16:19:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't really know much about dosbox. I only used it to play some DOS games, for which dosbox is apparently a popular choice.
16:19:17 <wob_jonas> But I used bochs, a whole machine emulator, with MS-DOS, to make termbot, which if you can recall was an IRC bot that connected a DOS machine (with two compilers and a line editor and a few other software) onto an IRC channel, giving users full control (root access) to the DOS machine.
16:19:42 <wob_jonas> I didn't run it much, because I'm afraid people can abuse bugs in the emulator to break out of it.
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16:20:11 <wob_jonas> But that one had the virtual machine's serial port connected to my script, and my script transferred data between that and IRC.
16:20:45 <wob_jonas> I can show you how exactly I did it, including the source code of the connecting script and the configuration for bochs if you want. I won't give the full hard disk contents.
16:22:45 <wob_jonas> Eventually I used two hard disks, a boot hard disk and a data hard disk, so that if you get the computer into a bricked state, which isn't too hard by just writing random stuff to the raw disk image, then you can use a command from IRC to reset the contents of the boot harddisk but preserve the data hard disk. That's not foolproof, because I suspec
16:22:45 <wob_jonas> t it might be possible to mess up the partition table of the data hard disk in such a way that DOS won't boot, but just zeroing it won't work.
16:23:03 <wob_jonas> In any case, I could reset the data hard disk manually if someone manages to do that.
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16:39:47 <zzo38> Is there anything in Linux like a /dev/camera to access a camera that you can do such like: ff-shrink 3 < /dev/camera | ffjpeg > out.jpeg or whatever
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17:07:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, I don't know much about local camera interfaces.
17:17:23 <ais523> zzo38: the relevant device file is /dev/video0 but at least cat doesn't seem to be able to read it, even when running as root
17:18:03 <zzo38> Do you need a special program to access it?
17:19:03 <ais523> reading up on this, apparently dd doesn't work either, but programs like ffmpeg can read it
17:19:18 <ais523> my suspicion is that it only works with very specific buffer sizes, or something like that
17:20:47 <fizzie> If it's a V4L2 device, it works by doing a lot of specific ioctl's.
17:23:25 <ais523> webcams are quite different from many input devices because they continuously capture video while turned on, as opposed to recording input reactively when they receive it
17:40:47 <wob_jonas> webcomes are quite different from other webcams too
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19:11:28 <Sgeo__> I wonder if I could run a Brainfuck interpreter inside a C64's floppy drive
19:12:28 <zzo38> Can a C64's floppy drive be reprogrammed?
19:12:58 <Sgeo__> I don't know, but it does have its own CPU apparently
19:15:48 <ais523> modern hard drives are powerful enough to run fairly complex programs
19:16:06 <ais523> a C64 is much older but should still be able to run BF, almost anything with a CPU can
19:22:05 <Sgeo__> I still can't get over the notion of drives having their own CPUs
19:22:31 <Sgeo__> Or "DOS" being an OS that sits on a floppy drive instead of being a silly name for an OS that's run to operate a full computer system
19:26:48 <Sgeo__> ....I just realized how hypocritical it is to marvel at a computer that's effectively inside a keyboard, while using my laptop.
19:28:51 <ais523> small/low-powered computers are really cheap nowadays
19:29:00 <ais523> for embedded work, I mean
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19:30:31 <ais523> you can get a small microcontroller for less than a dollar
19:30:38 <wob_jonas> right. many webcomes have a powerful computer in them too
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19:35:32 <ais523> Sgeo__: here's an example of a CPU which costs $1 exactly if bought in bulk: https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/PIC32MM0064GPL028
19:36:38 <ais523> 64 kilobytes of flashable ROM to hold the program, 8 kilobytes of RAM, and a range of low-level peripherals built right into it and directly accessible
19:37:18 <fizzie> The CPU in the 1541 disk drive is actually pretty much the same thing as what's in the C64 itself (a 1 MHz 6502; the C64 has a 6510, but that's not too different).
19:37:20 <ais523> and a 25 MHz clock rate when not running in low-power mode
19:38:34 <ais523> apparently if you're running it completely standalone it only has an 8 MHz clock rate because that's how fast the built-in clock runs
19:38:48 <ais523> I like microcontrollers, they're like computers with built-in motherboards and peripherals
19:44:04 <wob_jonas> I don't like them, but they're everywhere. There's one in my debit card, there's several in my cheap mobile phone, there's one or more in the cheap hands-free headset, so that's several right that I carry with me.
19:44:22 <wob_jonas> I only really like big computers with lots of performance.
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19:48:07 <wob_jonas> there's probably one in the battery of the mobile phone too, and the battery of my camera, and several in the camera, including one in the micro-SD card that's in it, and one in the spare micro-SD card I carry with the camera, and there's probably two in my electric toothbrush and one or two in this keyboard I'm typing on and one in the mouse,
19:48:58 <wob_jonas> and there's definitely a few in the mini tower I use as the amplifier between the computer and the speakers,
19:49:49 <wob_jonas> and that's only the ones I know of, because who know, maybe there's tiny ones in the bacteria I drink from my water bottle too
19:50:33 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I only really like big computers with lots of performance. => and who doesn’t!
19:50:58 <wob_jonas> oh, I forgot to mention the TFT display
19:52:29 <wob_jonas> and the remote control for the mini tower, and the three led lighting controllers in my house, and the ratio remote controller for one of the led lightings, and there's a proxy token on my keychain that opens five doors now
19:53:09 <arseniiv> maybe there's tiny ones in the bacteria I drink from my water bottle too => for most bacteria, it should essentially be nano
19:53:27 <wob_jonas> and in the readers for each of those doors, and in the door phone client and the door phone server at the gate,
19:55:13 <rdococ> There are languages where the program's code is on a grid of characters (a square tiling of the Euclidean plane). Theoretically, then, there could be a language where program code is on different tilings, such as a heptagonal tiling of the hyperbolic plane.
19:55:18 <wob_jonas> oh, I have a landline phone too, and the box the ISP gave me to connect doesn't even make it subtle because it emits a lot of heat and has a big transformer
19:55:34 <ais523> rdococ: Martin Ender writes a lot of those sorts of languages
19:55:37 <wob_jonas> and there's probably microcontrollers in each of the four USB chargers I have
19:55:48 <ais523> Hexagony, which uses a hex grid, is probably the best known
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20:00:54 <Sgeo__> I found a bug in the Wikipedia article on Commodore DOS
20:01:01 <Sgeo__> One of the examples isn't rendering properly
20:01:12 <zzo38> Many things they don't need computer; I have once written a schematic for a telephone answering machine that does not use any computer. It does require an external tape recorder, but the tape recorder doesn't require a computer either.
20:03:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but these days they just put microcontrollers in everything because it's easier
20:08:57 <ais523> often the cost of a device will primarily depend on how many components it has
20:09:14 <ais523> as more components means you need a bigger circuit board, a more extensive manufacturing process, etc.
20:09:28 <ais523> so using a single microcontroller can be worthwhile as it can do everything on its own
20:10:51 <Sgeo__> Why does 6502 indirect indexed addressing only allow starting from the 0 page?
20:11:28 <ais523> because that means it only uses 8 bits to store the temporary address
20:11:44 <wob_jonas> Sgeo_: the 6502 has very few real registers, so it effectively uses the first 256 bytes of memory as extra registers
20:11:46 <ais523> it only has limited space for that sort of "microcode temporary"
20:14:16 <wob_jonas> oh right, it only has like one adder, and it uses that for arithmetic, indexing, and incrementing the PC, and it's an 8-bit adder so it uses it twice when there's carry
20:15:34 <zzo38> Using the zero page for indirect indexed addressing seems good enough for most purposes anyways; I know 6502 programming, and it can also be used with NES/Famicom too
20:19:10 <ais523> because the NES uses the same instructions as a 6502
20:19:23 <ais523> (there are a few exceptions with undocumented opcodes and decimal mode)
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20:20:14 <zzo38> NES/Famicom has the decimal mode disabled (by removing one internal connection). Also it has the APU and CPU in the same IC.
20:20:38 <zzo38> Other than that it is a NMOS 6502.
20:21:25 <wob_jonas> what? why does it have the decimal mode disabled?
20:21:41 <pikhq> There was a patent on decimal mode.
20:21:57 <pikhq> Gating it off let them not pay a license fee for it.
20:22:34 <zzo38> The decimal mode flags still exists, but it is not connected to the decimal logic and so decimal mode flag does not do anything.
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20:22:55 <wob_jonas> ok, I was just wondering why they'd do that
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21:52:37 <Sgeo__> Is it normal for BASIC to make me want to claw my eyes out? There are no local variables
22:04:13 <ais523> that's common in older languages
22:07:25 <Sgeo__> Does C64 + SuperCPU support memory protection? I know normal C64 can support pre-emptive multitasking (which seems amazing to me), but no memory protection
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23:32:35 <shachaf> So I was trying to figure out what method calls really are.
23:32:53 <shachaf> I think the idea is that they try to provide a sort of dynamic namespace?
23:34:22 <shachaf> With regular static namespaces, I can define foo() in namespace N, and then I can say N.foo()
23:35:32 <zzo38> Now on SQLite mailing list they ask when is next release, it says 4 or 5 weeks. Now I know.
23:35:57 <shachaf> With methods and dynamic namespaces, I can define, say, a "push" method for arrays, and then I can say a.push(x) and b.push(x), and conceptually a.push and b.push are different functions.
23:36:55 <shachaf> Someone told me that instead of the usual method approach I should look at "multiple dispatch", which as far as I can tell means function overloading (?).
23:37:29 <zzo38> In what programming language?
23:37:52 <shachaf> There you'd write the same thing as push(a, x) or push(b, x), with which push you want being disambiguated by the type of the first argument (and maybe other arguments).
23:38:20 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't have a specific language in mind. Say C++.
23:38:30 <shachaf> This accomplishes a similar goal but it seems to me that it accomplishes it in a very different way!
23:39:10 <shachaf> In a.push(x), I'm looking up the name "push", unambiguously, inside a namespace which is probably small.
23:41:26 <HackEso> smlist 480: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
23:41:38 <shachaf> In the second case there's one global symbol, "push", that everyone adds meanings to, and to find out what push(a, x) means I need to look at all of them to find one that works for me.
23:52:35 <zzo38> One feature only found in the "rtree-geopoly" branch is SQLITE_INDEX_CONSTRAINT_FUNCTION, which may be useful in programs other than rtree-geopoly too.
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00:17:01 <Sgeo__> shachaf, https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldrich/papers/ecoop05pmd.pdf might be interesting?
00:17:12 <Sgeo__> "Prototypes with Multiple Dispatch:
00:17:12 <Sgeo__> An Expressive and Dynamic Object Model"
00:19:17 <shachaf> I want things to be less dynamic, not more dynamic. :-(
00:27:15 <zzo38> If the type is known then it should know how to dispatch at compile time.
00:29:48 <shachaf> Yes, in both cases I mentioned it's known at compile time.
00:30:22 <shachaf> I'd like to understand what's going on there first before worrying about more dynamic things.
00:31:13 <Sgeo__> Multiple dispatch is pretty tied to dynamic dispatch as far as I understand
00:31:50 <shachaf> I probably don't understand it very well, then.
00:32:20 <Sgeo__> I'm not sure, but Lisp and Clojure both support it I believe
00:32:43 <Sgeo__> https://clojure.org/about/runtime_polymorphism
00:33:11 <shachaf> Why couldn't that all be static?
00:34:04 <Sgeo__> The static version would just be overloading I believe
00:34:29 <Sgeo__> Maybe the clojure link isn't really a demonstration, hmm
00:34:49 <Sgeo__> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch#Common_Lisp
00:34:50 <shachaf> So should I prefer push(a, x) or a.push(x)?
00:35:04 <shachaf> They seem pretty different.
00:35:39 <Sgeo__> a.push(x) is better for single-dispatch systems, where that first argument is "special" so to speak, I would say
00:36:08 <Sgeo__> COuld make a language where they mean the same thing
00:36:51 <shachaf> I mean should I prefer single-dispatch or multiple-dispatch, I don't care about the syntax so much.
00:39:05 <Sgeo__> "In WiNGs while some programs may be running fine, you could start up a 3rd or 4th program or more and if any one of them has a major bug, it can crash the whole system."
00:39:15 <Sgeo__> Guess WiNGs doesn't have memory protection then
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03:13:49 <zzo38> Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and have the proper ordering? (And maybe a empty string represents negative infinity, although there is no positive infinity; if you don't use negative numbers then a empty string means zero)
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04:41:23 <Sgeo__> How do READ/DATA work in BASIC? I mean, READ somehow knows all DATA statements in the program and reads from them... but how?
04:42:25 <zzo38> Yes, it reads them in order (use RESTORE command to restart the data reading). Presumably it will find where the DATA statements are before reading them, I suppose.
04:42:36 <pikhq> Being BASIC, I would tend to assume the absolute simplest approach.
04:42:39 <zzo38> I don't know exactly how it is implemented.
04:42:48 <zzo38> But I know what those commands do.
04:43:15 <pikhq> i.e. likely each statement in the program gets put in a linked list or similar sequential data structure, and the READ statement just scans that.
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06:12:13 <Sgeo__> PRINT "{UP}{UP} READY OR NOT, HERE I COME"
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06:57:15 <Sgeo__> Ooh Simons' BASIC has local variables
06:57:41 <shachaf> If you want local variables, maybe consider a language that isn't BASIC.
06:59:36 <Sgeo__> Not sure if Simons' BASIC's local variables are um, reentrant? Or if it's just a single shadow/unshadow thing
07:00:48 <shachaf> Have you considered ALGOL 68 instead of BASIC?
07:02:32 <Sgeo__> There's a language called COMAL
07:02:33 <Sgeo__> "(Offsite link) This is (more or less) what happened when a Danish schoolteacher got fed up with Basic back in the early 1980s. COMAL added procedures and various structured-programming facilities. It was popular in the Commodore-64 community in Europe for a few years. This vesrsion has been heavily extended, but still conveys some of the flavor of what those 1980s micro languages were like. There is a very interesting history of the
07:02:33 <Sgeo__> language (presented as introduction to a bibliography) which puts it in context with BASIC."
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07:04:16 <Sgeo__> Can ALGOL 68 compile to or run on C64?
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08:53:00 <fizzie> @tell zzo38 I don't think you can. No matter which value q you choose to correspond to the first non-empty byte string ("\0"?), q/2 is a smaller rational and should've been chosen instead.
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09:37:32 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57474&oldid=57473 * A * (-34)
09:38:21 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57475&oldid=57467 * A * (-19) /* Computational class */
09:39:29 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57476&oldid=57474 * A * (+20)
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10:37:50 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57477&oldid=57476 * A * (-12)
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11:42:11 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and have the proper ordering? <-- i think not; there are strings with no elements between them, like "" and "\0"
11:45:41 <oerjan> oops, ninjaed (fizzied?)
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12:10:20 <esowiki> [[Esoteric Verilog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57478&oldid=36298 * Jabutosama * (+540) added definition for chemical
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13:11:11 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57479&oldid=56686 * GDavid * (+1310) /* Skip If Zero expansion (4 instructions) */
13:12:31 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57480&oldid=57479 * GDavid * (+0) /* Skip If Zero expansion (4 instructions) */
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14:50:18 <zzo38> Ah, that is the good point
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15:45:36 <zzo38> Now I made up a SQLite extension to load read-only compressed databases.
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17:33:56 <Sgeo__> It's weird, instead of wallowing in my own nostalgia, I'm wallowing in other people's nostalgia
17:48:40 <zzo38> Should P'' be mentioned somewhere in [[BF instruction minimalization]]? I am not sure where, though.
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17:50:40 <Sgeo__> I'm (currently and probably briefly) obsessed with the Commodore 64, even though I never had one, the closest was Weird Al making fun of it and the JavaOnTheBrain guy's interest
17:51:08 <Sgeo__> Also the Monty on the Run music was stolen by I Wanna Be The Guy
17:51:32 <zzo38> I have worked with old computers I never had any of, too
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18:05:10 <arseniiv> Sgeo__: zzo38: I slightly want to create a simple machine with graphical terminal. As it’s completely impractical by itself, I make it more feasible by thinking it would be an alien machine with alien glyphs, input mode, color representation, language etc. etc. but still I don’t want to make it enough, so it remains a rough idea and not much else
18:05:33 <arseniiv> maybe it has same reasons as this nostalgia?
18:06:07 <arseniiv> it’d be nice to wrap your head about something small and nice and OTOH sufficiently usable
18:07:20 <arseniiv> so the scope of activities is both manageable and worthy of interest by at least several people to share things with
18:08:01 <arseniiv> I think brain wants something like this, comfy and warm
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18:10:42 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: what do you mean by graphical terminal? full frame buffer?
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19:01:51 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: yeah, a program can set pixels (or other alien elements) of the screen separately
19:06:13 <arseniiv> (I thought about hexagonal elements, or simple brickwork (header bond), this would be not to hard to use or implement)
19:18:15 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: but then you'd need a fast cpu or something
19:21:24 <arseniiv> I thought that if that alien system is slow it’s because it’s not advanced enough
19:23:16 <wob_jonas> you can do a lot with slow speed but a good design of hardware and software
19:24:17 <arseniiv> so 30 fps or alike is reasonable enough. I tested a random-generated image buffer on 640×480 or alike in Processing³, it was giving stable 60fps. However it was with standard square pixels and no post-processing, and no VM computations
19:25:57 <arseniiv> generally, older systems emulators and other things do work acceptably, so it should be possible maybe without special GPU
19:27:00 <arseniiv> and if such a project is a bigger thing, it’s better to develop an actual OS
19:27:22 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, but how do you paint on it fast enough? you'd need a special blitter gpu that can copy sections shifted by any number of pixels
19:27:38 <arseniiv> (which process I hope I’ll never be in contact with)
19:27:39 <wob_jonas> and hopefully recolor it too through a palette
19:29:45 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: yes, but how do you paint on it fast enough? you'd need a special blitter gpu that can copy sections shifted by any number of pixels => why not copying the entire buffer? And there would be two buffers, of course: one currently being drawn as fast as it’s possible, and the other being fiddled upon by a machine’s instructions
19:30:18 <arseniiv> anyway I’m not going to make that thing in near future
19:31:39 <arseniiv> and hopefully recolor it too through a palette => I thought it would be recolored by VM software, if there’s no more than ~1k palette entries, why not
19:32:08 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: you'd need too fast a cpu for that
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20:14:03 <HackEso> 1251) <fizzie> When life gives you limes, make esolangs.
20:14:14 <HackEso> 376) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that <Sgeo> Or, at least, my toilet looks different \ 689) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
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20:33:45 <zzo38> One possibility for drawing on a display is using a display list; only the display list can draw on the picture.
20:35:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: arseniiv said "a program can set pixels (or other alien elements) of the screen separately" for some reason
20:37:24 <zzo38> Yes, but that would allow to set individla pixels while the program is doing other stuff too
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20:38:18 <Sgeo__> How many music formats require emulating a CPU?
20:38:46 <zzo38> I don't know. NSF does, and probably others too
20:39:00 <zzo38> It is better because custom compression is possible.
20:39:29 <Sgeo__> http://www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Category:Formats_With_Programmatic_Content
20:40:10 <Sgeo__> For SID, I don't think custom compression was used a lot although it's possible. Just various music making tools made their own machine code players to play their data
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20:50:01 <zzo38> Do you like the SQLite extensions I wrote?
20:52:09 <arseniiv> zzo38: what’s a display list? Isn’t it something like double-buffering?
20:53:24 <zzo38> A display list is a separate program to define the picture to display.
20:53:30 <ais523> arseniiv: I think it's like buffering of drawing commands rather than buffereing of the drawn pixels
20:54:45 <ais523> zzo38: do you have a SQLite extension for bignums?
20:55:09 <zzo38> No I do not, but may add it later. Is that something that would be useful to you?
20:55:11 <ais523> that's something I was trying to handle fairly recently, my current plan is to store them as strings once they're out of the int range, and use a custom collation to sort them in numerical order and custom functions for arithmetic
20:55:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: why strings rather than blobs?
20:55:36 <zzo38> I did make a collation to sort strings in numerical order.
20:55:44 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Presumably because collations don't work with blobs
20:55:53 <wob_jonas> yes, that might be easier than a custom format for sorting
20:56:11 <wob_jonas> mind you, the custom format isn't too bad either
20:56:14 <ais523> strings sort after ints in sqlite
20:56:34 <ais523> so as long as you're only using positive bignums, you can store smallnums as integers for efficiency
20:56:57 <ais523> even better, sqlite will convert strings to ints in a column with integer affinity iff the string is the digit pattern of some integer
20:57:09 <ais523> so you get that particular optimisation done automatically without having to code it
20:57:24 <zzo38> My "sqlext_misc" extension includes a "NUMERIC" collation, which can sort numbers in up to base 36, with an optional radix point, leading zeros, trailing zeros, leading/trailing spaces, and an optional sign positive/negative, too.
20:57:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: make sure you're not using too old sqlite versions then, to avoid the bugs
20:58:39 <ais523> zzo38: I assume it handles arbitrarily many digits?
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21:02:04 <ais523> I wrote a collation (in Perl) that sorts longer strings first, otherwise lexicographically
21:02:12 <ais523> I think that works for positive numbers
21:02:31 <wob_jonas> that depends on how you encode them
21:03:08 <ais523> not really, the SQLite/Perl interface sends as Unicode (i.e. a list of codepoints, not in any specific encoding)
21:03:34 <ais523> I believe the actual bits in memory are encoded in UTF-8 but that's an implementation detail and not visible from within the program unless you use very low-level operations
21:03:35 <zzo38> Actually "sqlext_misc" has a collation like that too, called "RIGHT_BINARY" (there is also "RIGHT_NOCASE")
21:04:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's one sqlite/perl interface. you can send any byte string as an utf-8 string to sqlite and it will happily store it verbatim, as long as you don't try to do anything utf16-related or any unicode-dependent stuff
21:04:39 <wob_jonas> this is documented but very well hidden in the documentation
21:04:49 <wob_jonas> it always talks about "utf-8 strings" in the interface
21:05:14 <ais523> I think one of the biggest mistakes in programming was making encodings visible anywhere other than the I/O layer
21:06:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's not really visible in sqlite3 unless you use one of the few functions or collations that care or any of the utf-16 interfaces
21:06:44 <ais523> the utf-16 interfaces are fine, as that /is/ an I/O layer (well, an API, which is much the same thing)
21:07:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but they make the encoding visible
21:07:36 <wob_jonas> if you restrict yourself to the utf-8 interfaces, you don't even have to know that it's utf-8
21:07:41 <wob_jonas> you can just store whatever byte strings you want
21:08:00 <zzo38> In SQLite you can use CAST(? AS BLOB), in case you need the UTF-8 representation as a blob
21:08:31 <wob_jonas> or you can just get the utf-8 representation with the C interface or any SANE wrapper of it
21:09:04 <ais523> hmm, I was planning to use that wrapper
21:09:31 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes you can (as long as the database is set to UTF-8), although you shouldn't because some SQL functions assume that it is Unicode text. (Also some things won't work proper if there is embedded null characters)
21:10:56 <zzo38> So you should use the SQL TEXT type only for valid sequences of nonzero Unicode codepoints (although it does not have to represent Unicode characters).
21:11:46 <zzo38> Of course, it is also good for ASCII text (which is what I mainly use it for anyways, rather than Unicode).
21:13:48 <zzo38> I don't know what is the perl DBI one anyways
21:17:06 <ais523> zzo38: it's the Perl module DBD::SQLite, which allows SQLite to be used through the DBI interface
21:17:25 <ais523> where DBI is another Perl module that abstracts over a large range of databases, giving all the common API functoins consistent names
21:17:29 <shachaf> I can't make up my mind about function overloading.
21:18:08 <ais523> shachaf: I have the feeling that multiple dispatch should be used only as an optimisation
21:18:16 <ais523> or as a method of fulfilling an interface/role
21:18:53 <shachaf> ais523: Did you see what I wrote about methods/multiple dispatch above?
21:19:15 <ais523> I noticed you writing something about it a while back
21:19:43 <ais523> probably yes but I'm not sure if I can remember the details
21:20:11 <shachaf> I was trying to figure out whether single dispatch and multiple dispatch are even similar or very different way of accomplishing the same thing.
21:20:23 <shachaf> What does it mean for it to be used only as an optimization?
21:21:36 <zzo38> Different databases have their own functions, so you cannot use the same things for all databases
21:22:32 <ais523> shachaf: like, you define multiple functions that all do the same thing, so it doesn't matter which is used for correctness purposes
21:22:37 <ais523> but some are specialised for different types
21:22:44 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08-25.html#l3d this thing
21:23:09 <ais523> zzo38: right, DBI aims to take the common functions (e.g. "run this statement", "retrieve a row of results") and give those consistent names and calling conventions between DBs
21:23:26 <ais523> it doesn't do things like translate the SQL statements themselves between SQL dialects
21:23:57 <ais523> shachaf: I believe that method calls should be namespaced independently of which class they belong to
21:24:08 <ais523> so that the same method name (given appropriate namespacing) always refers to the same operation
21:24:14 <wob_jonas> ok good night discussing it, I'd rather not get into this or I'll rant about DBI's stupidity and then I won't get to sleep before I have to work
21:24:20 <ais523> different classes may have to define it differently but it's still meant to do the same thing
21:24:29 <shachaf> That makes some sense, maybe.
21:24:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: night, you can tell me some other time when you don't have to wake up soon after :-)
21:24:44 <shachaf> Though different types mostly have different operations with different meanings.
21:24:48 <ais523> and I can put my DBI projects on hold until then
21:24:53 <zzo38> Still there are functions other than SQL statements too. Such as, SQLite has virtual tables, VFS, online backup, etc
21:25:05 <wob_jonas> meh, you or zzo38 can probably guess what I have to tell about it, or perhaps find it in the logs, I don't recall if I ranted about it yet or not
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21:25:51 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think DBI implements all those
21:27:30 <zzo38> SQLite also supports authorizer hook function, which can be used to disallow some SQL statements from an untrusted source (e.g. from remote users).
21:29:32 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57481&oldid=57046 * DMC * (+4)
21:30:03 <shachaf> ais523: I don't understand how choosing which code to run can be an optimization.
21:30:25 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57482&oldid=57481 * DMC * (+1)
21:30:46 <ais523> shachaf: well some classes will be more restricted versions of the classes they inherit from, so they may be able to do more efficient versions of the same operation
21:31:16 <ais523> anyway, I should try to get some work done
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21:39:09 <shachaf> @tell ais523 I'm trying to understand all this without inheritance first, it seems complicated enough in that case.
21:46:23 <Sgeo__> How drastically can a font change a character's width? Could be cool to make a font that shows tokenized BASIC as readable text
21:46:39 <Sgeo__> e.g. expand the token for GOTO into an appearance of the letters "GOTO"
21:49:20 <zzo38> Probably depends on the font format
21:49:43 <zzo38> With .pcf I believe you can do that.
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22:28:53 <arseniiv> zzo38: A display list is a separate program to define the picture to display. => hm, I don’t follow, then, how is it faster in any way
22:29:49 <zzo38> It may run in a separate display processor that only runs the display list.
22:35:26 <arseniiv> ah. I thoought about multithreaded program, one thread displays what is in the “still” buffer, and the main thread runs VM and, through it, manipulates the other buffer’s contents and changes two of them when appropriate (some command for refreshing the screen)
22:36:02 <arseniiv> it doesn’t need to be physically feasible, as is, realizable as a sane device
22:50:07 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57483&oldid=57420 * YamTokWae * (+142) /* External Links */
22:53:11 <zzo38> I don't really know how to do. You mentioned hexagons display, and alien glyphs, input mode, color representation, language etc. But, what with instruction set?
22:56:02 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57484&oldid=57483 * YamTokWae * (+4) /* Examples */
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23:27:56 <shachaf> What was that little CPU game people were playing in here?
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23:52:44 <zzo38> What does the "comm" field of /proc/$$/stat do if the filename contains parentheses or spaces?
00:00:47 <arseniiv> zzo38: But, what with instruction set? => didn’t think about it, but it would be nice if it somehow anticipated using algebraic datatypes in a language compiled to it
00:02:14 <arseniiv> and it would should have a minimalistic instruction set
00:11:07 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the problem with parentheses and spaces?
00:14:44 <zzo38> The fields in that file are separated by spaces, and there is parentheses around it, but how can you parse it if the filename contains parentheses and spaces?
00:15:25 <shachaf> Oh, I misread that as /proc/$$/comm somehow.
00:24:43 <shachaf> zzo38: I found the answer.
00:24:53 <shachaf> zzo38: First you look for the leftmost (, and then you look for the rightmost )
00:24:59 <shachaf> And the comm is between them.
00:25:08 <shachaf> This is what ps does, at least.
00:25:28 <shachaf> https://github.com/thlorenz/procps/blob/master/deps/procps/proc/readproc.c#L516
00:25:51 <zzo38> Well, I suppose that will work (as long as no other parentheses are possible in that file, which as far as I can tell is the case), although it doesn't seem a very good design.
00:26:15 <shachaf> it's p. scow the amount of ad-hoc parsing unix makes you do to do things
00:28:30 <pikhq> I find myself kinda wishing the "everything is text" thing had motivated fewer data representations, not more.
00:29:25 <shachaf> I don't think it's that great.
00:29:56 <shachaf> Structure is good, throwing it away is a scow move
00:31:40 <pikhq> On the other hand, the period structured file systems were pretty scow.
00:32:03 <arseniiv> Structure is good, throwing it away is a scow move => +1 vive LispOS!
00:32:09 <shachaf> Well, sure, most things are scow.
00:32:20 <shachaf> But why do we gotta be stuck with the 1970s scow?
00:33:07 <pikhq> Because people are afraid of change.
00:33:42 <pikhq> To the point that you live in a country that's using 16th century scow units. :)
00:33:57 <shachaf> I think I'll give up on all computer things and just do it all myself.
00:35:07 <zzo38> UNIX is still much better than Windows though, even though there are some problem
00:36:17 <shachaf> Is it better than Windows?
00:38:22 <pikhq> Depends on where you're looking really.
00:38:24 <shachaf> A lot of the windows system calls seem better to me.
00:39:53 <zzo38> Yes, a few are in fact better, some are same, many are worse.
00:40:23 <shachaf> I haven't used other UNIX systems much.
00:40:37 <shachaf> Which parts of the Linux system call API are much better than Windows?
00:41:20 <pikhq> (Windows does not have a stable system call API at all)
00:41:32 <shachaf> I mean kernel32.dll or whatever the equivalent is.
00:41:39 <zzo38> Yes, that is much of why Windows is worse.
00:41:48 <shachaf> The Windows approach seems p. reasonable?
00:41:58 <shachaf> It's like the VDSO in Linux.
00:42:11 <pikhq> Nah, kernel32.dll is not a thin wrapper.
00:42:39 <shachaf> Right, but is that a bad thing?
00:42:40 <pikhq> kernel32.dll is more analogous to glibc, if glibc was built on top of an unstable system call API.
00:43:01 <shachaf> Better for more of the stable API compatiblity layers to be in userspace rather than in the kernel.
00:43:20 <shachaf> (Then again, they do font rendering in the kernel, so, y'know.)
00:46:07 <shachaf> By the way, I didn't really realize until recently why C89 requires all variable declarations to be at the beginning of a block.
00:46:41 <shachaf> It's really laying out a stack frame, just like a struct etc.
00:47:32 <shachaf> Compilers have been ignoring that completely and doing much fancier allocation for a long time so it didn't really occur to me.
00:47:34 <pikhq> Yeah, and period compilers were generally very simple.
00:51:23 <shachaf> Windows debugging-related system calls seem much nicer than ptrace.
00:51:46 <shachaf> And I hear IOCP is p. good?
00:52:44 <pikhq> IOCP is a mixed bag. When it works it's great, but it requires a client-side buffer for each request, and in some cases *can block anyways*.
00:53:00 <shachaf> That's true for a lot of Linux APIs too. :-(
00:53:11 <pikhq> Yeah, and I'm harsh on them for the same exact reasons!
00:53:28 <shachaf> I don't understand why they don't just give you an API where everything is asynchronous.
00:53:59 <shachaf> Where you can do socket I/O and file I/O and it's guaranteed not to block the OS thread.
00:54:23 <pikhq> Yeah, it makes some things really painful not having that.
00:54:41 <pikhq> Thread pools for async IO should not be a thing that people actually do.
00:54:46 <shachaf> Instead it's a mess of different APIs for different things and they have strange restrictions and some things can block anyway.
00:55:01 <shachaf> So you have to use a thread pool, yep.
00:55:30 <shachaf> And it's just so much effort for so much wasted work! To make the thread pool work it has to be doing lots of extra work I don't want!
00:55:45 <pikhq> You can make it work that way, but it really feels like just reimplementing a part of the kernel because the kernel can't be bothered to expose it to you.
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01:32:53 <zzo38> Will GCC optimize out a code to switch the endian if it is already correct, in any cases?
01:33:16 <shachaf> I'm confused by that question.
01:33:49 <shachaf> Do you mean "if (IS_BIG_ENDIAN) { x = switch_endian(x); }", where IS_BIG_ENDIAN is known to be false at compile-time?
01:34:49 <shachaf> Or do you mean something along the lines of "char *p; uint32_t x = p[0] | p[1] << 8 | p[2] << 16 | p[3] << 24;"?
01:35:10 <zzo38> I mean like that second way.
01:35:30 <shachaf> In the first case, it can certainly remove that dead code. In the second case, I'm pretty sure it'll recognize that and turn it into a simple instruction that reads 4 bytes at a time.
01:35:40 <shachaf> (Assuming there are no alignment issues, I guess.)
02:47:41 <Sgeo__> I wonder if there are any C64-like screen editors for shells for modern OSes
02:50:32 <Sgeo__> zzo38, you mentioned music compression? http://deepsid.chordian.net/?file=MUSICIANS/0-9/4-Mat/Empty_512_bytes.sid
02:51:29 <zzo38> I have no SID player on my computer at this time
02:51:33 <Sgeo__> The file it's playing is ... huh my copy is 630 bytes, I feel cheated
02:51:37 <Sgeo__> That website has a built in SID player
02:51:46 <zzo38> Maybe there is a header?
02:52:16 <Sgeo__> The heck? Windows tells me the size on disk is 0 bytes
02:57:35 <Sgeo__> Huh, so they measure the side of the .prg file (executable C64 can run). .sid does have a header, so yeah maybe
02:57:52 <Sgeo__> Although turning a .sid into a .prg would also involve adding a small amount of code
02:59:00 <Sgeo__> 7zip says the .sid is 618 bytes and the .prg is 510 bytes
03:04:32 <esowiki> [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57485&oldid=57451 * A * (+27) Actually, mispelled word
03:04:42 <esowiki> [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57486&oldid=57485 * A * (-4)
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04:06:03 <Sgeo__> Someone fit the Bad Apple animation onto a single disk for the C64
04:06:13 <Sgeo__> https://csdb.dk/release/?id=131628
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05:43:16 <Sgeo__> ""The (zero) flag is probably misnamed, and should have been called the
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05:51:08 * Sgeo__ is vaguely annoyed that 6502 asm uses "EOR" instead of "XOR"
05:54:39 <Sgeo__> "Coding to test the RUN/STOP key is often removed once testing is complete, on the assumption that no one will want to stop perfect program. Incidentally, if you plan to write nothing but 100 percent perfect programs, you will not need to use this subroutine."
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08:06:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re "comm" field of /proc/$$/stat, see http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/proc.5.html and the source of http://procps.sourceforge.net/ which has utilities like ps and top for linux and parse data from /proc , note that you may need to read /proc/$pid/status instead
08:07:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also, if you only want the arguments (argv or the argument list in execve), you can try /proc/$pid/cmdline
08:08:22 <wob_jonas> the format of /proc/$pid/cmdline is nul-byte-separated and so completely unambiguous
08:21:05 <wob_jonas> zzo38: You can also read the source code of Linux or of any of the open source BSDs that emulates a linux-like /proc interface. I did that to make sure that that counter somewhere in /proc that counts the number of times a new process was created was 64-bit so it can't overflow.
08:24:07 <wob_jonas> The counter is the line with "processes" in /proc/stat
08:31:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: gcc optimize endian: in some cases yes, but it's hard to tell which those cases are, so it's easier to just steal the macro definitions from http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libev.html , which define sane endianness swapping operations calling builtins on many compilers including gcc and msvc, and falling back to portable C on others.
08:33:19 <wob_jonas> I can also point to like five other libraries that give you endianness interface, including https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_68_0/libs/endian/doc/index.html , but I can't vouch for their quality,
08:35:27 <wob_jonas> whereas I have examined libev in detail and have worked with schmorp on some of libev's integer code, and I know its code is excellent.
08:36:01 <wob_jonas> Instead of libev, I mean http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libecb.html
08:36:38 <wob_jonas> You want the functions ecb_bswap16
08:37:06 <wob_jonas> , ecb_bswap32, ecb_bswap64, ecb_big_endian, ecb_little_endian.
08:38:04 <wob_jonas> I also wanted to add macro functions for reading/writing unaligned integers, but eventually schmorp convinced me that malloc is the best solution for that, compilers already optimize it really well and it has exactly correct semantics in C and C++, my solutions were more complicated and not better.
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08:52:29 <wob_jonas> Sgeo: yes, the operation was called EOR and IOR back then, for exclusive and inclusive or. It's not xclusive to 6502.
08:52:54 <wob_jonas> I don't know when "iff" and "ssi" started.
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09:10:32 <int-e> "iff" is nxor; wtf is "ssi"?
09:11:01 <int-e> (Most of my assembly exposure was intel x86, hence 'xor' rather than 'eor')
09:11:29 <shachaf> int-e: You were playing that one assembly game.
09:12:37 <int-e> shachaf: Which one, box-256, tis100, shenzhen I/O? Or the old hugi competitions?
09:13:02 <shachaf> Box-256, I think that was it.
09:17:04 <wob_jonas> and I think "iff" in the bitwise logic version is called "xnor" or "equ" rather than "nxor", but I'm not sure
09:28:57 <int-e> wob_jonas: I think you're right... and it's confusing :P
09:29:53 <int-e> (exclusive neither-nor?)
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09:56:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: "exclusive nor". sounds better than "nexclusive or".
09:57:40 <wob_jonas> wait, let me check what the MMIX bitwise instructions call it... it has all 8 bitwise instructions, not just the 4 ones that are invariant to zeros
09:58:50 <int-e> wob_jonas: I've been trained to think logically... :P
09:59:45 <wob_jonas> the eight are OR ORN NOR XOR AND ANDN NAND NXOR
10:00:03 <wob_jonas> in that case there's good precedent to call it "nxor". sorry.
10:01:09 <wob_jonas> and the text gives the short name "bitwise not-exclusive-or" to that instr
10:02:29 <wob_jonas> the text might have changed in the final version, not likely, but if you want I can check at home where I have the up to date book; the instruction mnemonic can't have changed because that would break compat with MMIXAL programs whose syntax were fixed at that time
10:11:35 <int-e> yeah, seems unlikely
10:11:58 <int-e> (that the text changed from the pre-fascicle to the published fascicle)
10:23:37 <wob_jonas> in any case, "bitwise not-exclusive-or" is definitely not a so silly name that nobody would ever use it
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13:14:31 <lambdabot> You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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13:30:12 <ais523> "don't ask to ask, just ask"
13:30:38 <ais523> it's kind-of pointless to attract someone's attention to say you're going to ask a question, and then not ask it, because there's nothing they can actually do with their attention on the channel
13:30:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: I asked on #nethack4, then noticed you're not joined there. Join there, or should I ask here?
13:31:00 <ais523> just checked #esoteric first
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16:23:58 <zzo38> I am making a graphics extension for SQLite. Currently I have functions GR_BLANK, GR_HCONCAT, GR_HEIGHT, GR_TEXT, GR_VCONCAT, GR_WIDTH, RGB8, RGBA8, RGB16, RGBA16, but I intend eventually will also add functions for making pie charts and other data graphics too (possibly as aggregate functions).
16:24:08 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1d 7h 31m 8s ago: I don't think you can. No matter which value q you choose to correspond to the first non-empty byte string ("\0"?), q/2 is a smaller rational and should've been chosen
16:24:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 4h 41m 57s ago: <zzo38> Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and
16:24:08 <lambdabot> have the proper ordering? <-- i think not; there are strings with no elements between them, like "" and "\0"
16:24:52 <zzo38> Do you like this graphics extension? (Note: The extension to display the graphics on the screen is a separate extension (already released, as "sqlext_xwindows"), since it uses Xlib.)
16:38:21 <zzo38> A function to convert a picture into Sixel format may also be helpful, in case you wish to display the picture inline rather than a separate window.
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17:23:08 <esowiki> [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57487&oldid=53054 * SuperJedi224 * (+141)
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19:32:26 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57488&oldid=57287 * DMC * (+57) /* Description */
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19:52:29 <\oren\> Lol I figured out this bug only because of my memorization of the numberic values of ascii chaacters
19:53:17 <\oren\> I just happen to know that !"#$ are the first 4 ascii
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20:42:51 <\oren\> I still think C++ syntax for pure virtual fucntions is retarded
20:44:30 <tswett> I've always thought that generally, esolangs should be designed with the best and clearest syntax possible.
20:44:37 <tswett> This means, of course, that C++ fails to meet esolang standards.
20:56:42 <tswett> Invent the best esolang based on aviation.
20:57:13 <tswett> The prize is a free ride in a glider, assuming that I have a commercial pilot's license by the time you make it to Richmond Field on a day that I'm flying there.
20:57:19 <int-e> tswett: that will never fly
20:57:31 <Taneb> int-e: let tswett have this flight of fancy
20:57:57 <tswett> I think you guys need to take the ten thousand foot view.
20:58:00 <int-e> Taneb: fair enough but I don't want to be here when it comes crashing down
20:58:17 <tswett> I think this idea could really take off.
20:59:22 <tswett> It's all a matter of having the right attitude.
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21:02:27 <arseniiv> (personally IDK anything about aviation but that dispatching all that is really hard on people doing it and that they do it well, so there’s less incidents than with cars etc.)
21:03:31 <tswett> Now I have a completely different idea.
21:03:45 <tswett> I want to create the fastest video game ever created.
21:04:18 <tswett> You click on "start", and the Big Bang happens, and you guide the entire evolution of the universe until its heat death 20 seconds later.
21:07:34 <arseniiv> is it possible to base an esolang on keyboard cleaning procedures? I’ve cleaned mine and it was as usual full of cat hair and crumbs of something, and I have finally realized how the Enter key is supposed to be fixed correctly (there are staple-like things which allow the key to press more stable)
21:08:24 <arseniiv> tswett: too hard, interesting parts would be unnoticeable
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00:00:00 <Sgeo__> Supposedly BBC Micro BASIC is actually decent
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00:08:47 <impomatic> It's faster and supports more structured programming features than most other 8-bit BASICs.
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00:13:31 <john_metcalf> It's faster and supports more structured programming features than most other 8-bit BASICs.
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05:05:58 <Sgeo__> Someone needs to make a cover of "It's all about the Pentiums" in .sid. It would be a song making fun of C64 runnable on C64
05:20:45 <quintopia> and then put a DRM on the file because "My digital media's rights protected"
05:29:28 <quintopia> i have no idea what's causing this error. time to reboot.
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09:10:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: can you remind me where your sqlite extensions are on the internet?
09:11:16 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also, have you read my replies about linux /proc interface at https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08-27.html#lGb
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19:11:40 <wob_jonas> imode: I remembered what that book was that I mentioned in 2018-08 in this channel https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08.html#lUz . It's Paul Davies, ''The last three minutes''.
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19:42:21 <imode> thanks! I'll go check that out.
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23:15:34 <\oren\> Holy crap now when I load gmail.com it shows a LOADING BAR
23:17:31 <\oren\> WTF is this shit, maybe if you didn't use so much angular.js and react.js and goatse.js bullshit it would load fast like it used to
23:19:26 <\oren\> I should make a web framework called goatse.js
23:21:54 <\oren\> goatse.js: 500 GB of minified javascript that allows you to build any web app you can imagine!
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00:44:25 <Sgeo> I just did poke 0,0 in a C64 emulator in BASIC. Shouldnt that ruin something?
00:44:45 <Sgeo> That should swap out KERNAL and BASIC ROM I believe, why is BASIC still functioning?
00:45:19 <Sgeo> Oh it should be poke 1,0
00:46:12 <Sgeo> poke 0,0 seems to protect against poke 1,0
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00:51:11 <Sgeo> Probably not. Can't say for certain. Day's not over yet
00:59:42 <shachaf> Do you prefer Ada or ALGOL 68?
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01:07:49 <Sgeo> I'll say Ada although I dont really know either. Ada supposedly has nice properties regarding correctness
01:07:51 <Sgeo> And readability
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01:08:15 <pikhq> All I know about Ada is, it has a nice name.
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01:18:58 <boily> @tell oerjan bonsϿirjan. I haven't disturbed your ears in quite a while: https://youtu.be/X99D7lLDfwI
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02:45:48 <xkapastel> http://christianp.github.io/regex-fractals/
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06:57:02 <esowiki> [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57489&oldid=50612 * Qpliu * (+110) /* External resources */
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08:58:23 <esowiki> [[Far]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57490&oldid=56999 * GibsonGeorge * (+178) Add print example
09:24:59 <shachaf> There's something fishy about my mental type checker.
09:25:15 <shachaf> I was having a lot of trouble understanding a type, and then I renamed a type variable from b to r, and then it all made perfect sense.
09:28:15 <Taneb> Which is the type?
09:28:41 <shachaf> newtype D f a = D (forall b. (a -> b) -> b -> f b) from Twitter
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09:29:39 <shachaf> I guess it's not the type checker but the understander, which is admittedly functionality GHC doesn't implement yet.
09:30:54 <shachaf> i,i x : R -> R; x(f) = f^2
09:31:27 <shachaf> Gotta come to terms with your brain being nothing but a big pile o' heuristics
10:00:21 <int-e> shachaf: heh I'm in the same boat, that type is much more familiar with an 'r'.
10:01:23 <int-e> So it becomes f (Maybe a) if f is a functor. Yay.
10:03:31 <int-e> Conventions are powerful.
10:04:02 <int-e> shachaf: Imagine it had been newtype D a b = D (forall c. (b -> c) -> c -> a c)
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10:07:32 <int-e> newtype Duck quack swim = Duck (forall eat. (swim -> eat) -> eat -> quack eat) -- duck typing version
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10:09:22 <shachaf> int-e: It's supposed to be a type derivative.
10:09:33 <shachaf> I think that works if the second argument is linear?
10:11:54 <int-e> Mmm. Linear as in "used exactly once"? Sure, then exactly one of the Maybe (in my mental model) is a hole.
10:12:34 <shachaf> Right. Which I'd wondered how to do before!
10:13:48 <shachaf> I mean, I've thought about representing D f a as (a -o F a), but then you run into parametricity issues or something.
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10:23:06 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57491&oldid=57386 * Hakerh400 * (+55) Added version info
10:23:33 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57492&oldid=57491 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
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10:35:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: When writing my MsC-equivalent thesis in maths, I have spent a very large amount of time renaming variables so that the proof is more pleasant.
10:36:37 <wob_jonas> In that case, there were a lot of different variables, so I had to figure out how to rename them without any two clashing. I ended up without any two clashing in any one chapter, and without any two used in more than one chapter clashing.
10:37:05 <wob_jonas> But I think there are a few that clash between chapter 2 and chapter 3.
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15:53:17 <int-e> huh what's this, https://www.gog.com/game/7_billion_humans ... a successor to the human resource machine, hmm
15:58:37 <\oren\> There's something to be said for Fortran 66's rule for implicit typing based on the variable's name
16:00:22 <\oren\> the variables I J K L M N are implicitly integers, and all others are implicitly real
16:00:51 <\oren\> unless declared otherwise, that is
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16:02:34 <\oren\> lol even modern fortran does this
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17:22:03 <int-e> \oren\: hence: "God is real, unless declared integer."
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18:28:07 <wob_jonas> \oren\: and then older BASIC took the idea, only every variable defaults to single float, and you can override it either based on the starting letter with DEFINT/DEFSNG/DEFDBL/DEFSTR statements (so many programs start with DEFINT A-Z) or use postifx sigils ("%" for int, "!" for single, "#" for double, "$" for string), but not declare the types of i
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20:06:06 <arseniiv> what’s funny VB6 (and at least some versions of VBA IIRC) has these sigils still (and some more like & for Long)
20:07:39 <arseniiv> “still” is I mean they haven’t been dropped in VB5, VB4 etc.
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20:15:20 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, that's where I complained about VBA a few weeks ago
20:16:11 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: specifically I was trying to concatenate strings like "foo"&vbCrlf&"bar" but it turns out that doesn't work, you have to write "foo"&vbCrlf &"bar" or else the second & is parsed as a sigil rather than an operator
20:17:42 <wob_jonas> I didn't even know before that that it had sigils, but it does
20:18:02 <wob_jonas> you can actually write DIM x% and it will be implicitly an integer
20:18:16 <arseniiv> yeah. Although I had luck when I actually used VBA or VB6
20:19:34 <arseniiv> it was unlucky on a whole other level — I was using VB6 because I hadn’t got anything else :D
20:21:00 <arseniiv> “classes” there even have no inheritance(
20:21:51 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: did I mention that VBA has dictionaries, but no convenient way to sort anything?
20:22:04 <wob_jonas> if you have to sort in VBA, you're screwed
20:22:11 <arseniiv> and overall the language is too verbose, and IDEs these times had not much autocompletion of statements
20:22:24 <arseniiv> oh I haven’t needed to sort, so I didn’t know
20:23:34 <arseniiv> there were several revelations those times. One was that with right method names, involving underscores and something, you could add an indexer to the class
20:24:31 <arseniiv> though P/Invoke db didn’t exist then. Or it did but I had no internet anyway :D
20:27:31 <arseniiv> after VB, I was writing strange code in Delphi 7, some occasional C++ in a console IDE for some uni project and then there came enlightenment including Lua, C#, Python, Haskell and something. Now I know I was doing foolish things when I could be doing something more interesting way earlier(
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23:37:47 <HackEso> olist 1138: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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23:45:50 <HackEso> olist 5913: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
23:46:15 <Sgeo> rain1 is clearly a time traveller
23:58:07 <HackEso> olist ω+1?: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
23:59:35 <shachaf> Can y'all stop pinging people needlessly?
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10:24:39 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57493&oldid=57477 * A * (-23) Suddenly discovered that I am not making a new language.
10:28:32 <int-e> . o O ( shachaf: no! )
10:30:25 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57494&oldid=57493 * A * (-269) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */
10:32:16 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57495&oldid=57494 * A * (-50) /* Try Again */
10:32:56 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57496&oldid=57495 * A * (-7)
10:33:36 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57497&oldid=57496 * A * (-6) /* Calling Functions */
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10:34:57 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57498&oldid=57497 * A * (-124) /* Anonymous functions */
10:55:25 <ep100> Hey guys. What are you all working on?
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14:32:30 <oerjan> @tell boily bood afternoily. that was certainly disturbing.
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16:13:23 <HackEso> smlist 481: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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18:36:23 <wob_jonas> You know what I'm worried about, guys?
18:37:23 <wob_jonas> I'm getting lots of different phishing spam, the really bad kind, in the name of the two banks I actually use through their online banking system, and very rarely in the name of any other banks.
18:38:30 <wob_jonas> The phishing itself is worthless, I'm not going to fall for it. But I'm really trying to not make it easy to find out which two banks I use. I have mentioned the name of one of them in this channel, but very rarely, and not in any way that an automated spambot is likely to connect to me.
18:38:56 <wob_jonas> Nobody is likely to target me with phishing spam. It's definitely automated spambots in mass quantities that figured out which two banks I use. How do they know?
18:39:05 <wob_jonas> It's not impossible to find out, but not easy either.
18:39:08 <shachaf> My trick is to have an account with every bank.
18:40:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, it's probably cheap in *most* of the banks, but if you have an account with *every* bank, that's bound to cost you. you're not paying for the median.
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18:42:02 <shachaf> Shouldn't the banks be paying me?
18:42:51 <ep100> they should be paying me honest to god?
18:42:56 <wob_jonas> shachaf: some of them, sure. but not so much that you win in gross total.
18:43:42 <shachaf> OK, I'll only have accounts with 5-10 banks or something.
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18:57:18 <wob_jonas> I can believe that, and so can the spambots.
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18:59:44 <shachaf> Spambots don't send me spam from any of those banks, though, I think.
19:00:03 <shachaf> Unless you count spambots operated by the banks themselves, in which case they often send me spam that I can't opt out of.
19:00:26 <shachaf> For example one of them keeps sending me emails about their mobile app, which I already have installed.
19:00:50 <shachaf> They say it's sent as part of our existing business relationship (and so presumably exempt from CAN-SPAM?).
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19:09:38 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the spam is not *from* any bank. it's just *in the name* of the bank. and it's a very weak pretense.
19:10:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and yes, I also get a few emails from the bank, but those don't bother me, unlike the phishing sent in their name.
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01:09:00 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas That phishing sounds strange, unless you happen to use the two most common banks in hungary, in which case spammers _might_ do so by accident?
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04:34:01 <zzo38> I am not sure what the interface should be in my SQLite graphics extension for making pie charts and stuff like that, considering there are many options that you may wish to set.
04:35:24 <zzo38> Do you know? (I thought they could be aggregate functions, but other than that I don't know how should the options to be put in, and some other stuff)
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06:35:37 <deltab> zzo38: aggregate functions make sense for that. options could be passed as JSON
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13:46:10 <zzo38> deltab: OK, JSON could make sense I suppose
14:00:22 <zzo38> (Of course, then I will need a JSON implementation in the extension)
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14:36:27 <zzo38> It is just the case of having to specify all of the options each time
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14:38:16 <zzo38> (Also I don't know that I need such thing as nested objects, arrays, etc, for the options anyways)
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21:48:27 <arseniiv> esolang ideas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogram
22:07:06 <deltab> zzo38: oh, I was thinking of another dbms with a json type built in (though I see there is a loadable extension for sqlite)
22:08:27 <deltab> alternatively, another string format, or read options from a table
22:09:05 <zzo38> More options may be added later, and it is not convenient to enter all of the options every time even if changing only some, too
22:18:38 <zzo38> What options do you think are needed? I thought of some, such as axis styles, grid lines, picture size, picture boundary, compositing mode (when you are making a scatter plot of pictures), etc
22:22:57 <zzo38> Should adding axis be a separate function?
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