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00:10:47 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I can't reproduce what you did. If I export to pdf from scribus, it seems it insists on recompressing the jpeg images, rather then embedding them as is.
00:11:10 <wob_jonas> fizzie: how exactly did you do that?
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00:49:00 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas I don't think I did anything special. But it seems to (unfortunately) have something to do with the image: I did it for two random .jpg files, and one gets embedded as-is but the other is re-encoded.
00:53:12 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas I'm not sure what the crucial difference between the images might be. The re-encoded file has an embedded color profile while the embedded one doesn't, in case that matters.
00:59:30 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas I don't think that's the reason, though, because removing all metadata (which does get rid of the color profile; at least Gimp no longer does the conversion prompt) doesn't help. It gets still stored re-encoded, actually as PPM unless I explicitly request JPEG (and if I do, it's re-JPEG'd).
01:06:14 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas The non-working file is also a progressive JPEG (ImageMagick's "identify -verbose" reports "Interlace: JPEG"), while the working/embedded one is non-progressive ("Interlace: None"), in case *that* makes a difference.
01:08:11 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas That seems to be it (at least for my pair of images): if I use 'convert' to re-encode it as a non-progressive JPEG file, that does get embedded as-is by Scribus.
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01:15:09 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas FWIW, some earlier PS/PDF spec versions seem to have supported baseline (non-progressive) JPEG only, though since PDF 1.3 progressive files should be supported. There might be some other limitations on JPEG images in PDF as well that are relevant in your case.
01:17:28 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas If it *is* the same reason for you, jpegtran can do a lossless conversion from progressive to baseline (just call it on the file without the "-progressive" switch), and that was also enough to make my file get embedded as-is.
01:18:11 <fizzie> (I hope that's not too many messages.)
01:22:46 <oerjan> i recall lambdabot used to just lose them if there were too many, but vaguely think that was fixed.
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03:00:33 <oerjan> apparently that does exist.
03:04:51 <ais523> are there any phonemes that technically exist but no langauge uses them?
03:05:09 <ais523> that can be made via the normal methods, that is
03:10:08 <erkin> Yes, they're documented in fact.
03:10:32 <erkin> They appear (almost exclusively) in speech impediments or cases of glossolalia.
03:10:49 <zzo38> What kind of phonemes are only possible for monster with multiple mouths?
03:11:04 <erkin> There's an IPA extension describing them. In fact there's a symbol for speaking like Donald Duck.
03:13:34 <doesthiswork> Yes I don't know of any languages that use buccal speach
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03:14:50 <erkin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_Quality_Symbols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtIPA
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04:10:41 <zzo38> I also think 24 characters maximum password length is too short. The minimum should be four and the maximum should at least one hundred, preferably more. All bytes other than null bytes should be allowed in the password.
04:25:05 <zzo38> Did you know that? You can use bsdtar to read truncated ZIP archives; 7-Zip cannot read truncated ZIP archives, but bsdtar can. I learned that a week ago, so that is good in case I need to load a truncated ZIP archive in my computer.
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04:48:01 <pikhq> Oh yeah, because libarchive reads from the start, and thus has some minorly quirky behavior with ZIP files.
04:53:57 <izabera> that will come in handy the next time that you'll have to deal with a damaged tape drive
05:00:22 <pikhq> Hey, you never know.
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05:07:46 <pikhq> Good lord, is the Spaceworld '97 demo of Pokemon Gold weird in spots.
05:09:17 <pikhq> Like, there's a Ditto evolution and it's freaking disturbing.
05:09:55 <pikhq> Sorry, wrong channel.
05:10:04 <zzo38> My brother mentioned it earlier today.
05:11:44 <oerjan> in freefall, dvorak may have to learn some boundaries, quickly.
05:12:00 <pikhq> You say that, but it's Dvorak.
05:12:36 <oerjan> unless he wants to be forcefully thrown out of the house...
05:13:57 <pikhq> Which you know will happen and he will just be confused about it. :P
05:23:02 <oerjan> ok, somewhere in the foglio family there must be a pair of bickering siblings that gil and tarvek are patterned after.
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08:09:43 <wob_jonas> Oh! So maybe I have to change the PDF version in the export dialog.
08:10:32 <wob_jonas> I wouldn't like to embed non-progressive jpegs, because those would increase the file size.
08:11:20 <wob_jonas> Thanks for the hint, I'll experiment with this.
08:13:18 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> What kind of phonemes are only possible for monster with multiple mouths?" => https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=178 mentions something that the protagonists can't say because they don't have a second tongue
08:19:06 <wob_jonas> "<doesthiswork> I have a new favorite consonant. Labialised m" => wtf
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09:13:27 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I tried all the PDF versions supported by my version of Scribus (1.3, 1.4, 1.5), but couldn't make it embed a progressive JPEG. It might be a limitation in the software. I don't think it's generally that big a size difference, though. (At least my test image only goes from 87902 bytes to 88946 with "jpegtran -optimize progressive.jpg >baseline.jpg".)
09:14:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, but this is for large resolution high quality images of which I've already reduced the size
09:15:00 <wob_jonas> and the total size of images is like 260 megabytes or something, so the size difference matters
09:15:20 <wob_jonas> I'll have to look at some other software though, it's possible that pdftex can help here
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09:19:50 <fizzie> If the layout you need is really simple, it might also be possible just to handcraft a .ps program (the jpeg files would just go in as-is as the image data, with filter /DCTDecode) and try any of the N tools that do PS-to-PDF conversion.
09:20:33 <fizzie> (In theory you could even export the postscript from somewhere and just replace the images in it.)
09:21:03 <wob_jonas> the layout is simple, except for three pages where I'm putting text, but I can make those text with a separate tool and export to ps and slice them together
09:21:12 <wob_jonas> um, four pages where I'm putting text actually
09:21:41 <wob_jonas> and ideally the table of contents page should have links to other pages, and a nice pdf table of contents, and I think pdftex can help there
09:21:50 <wob_jonas> or I can try libreoffice or ms office, maybe they can do this
09:22:42 <wob_jonas> the layout is basically just one image per page, with a variable but precise amount of white space on their four corners, that is. all pages are the same size, but I need the images placed exactly at the right spot.
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11:13:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MostlyHarmless * New user account
11:20:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55490&oldid=55483 * MostlyHarmless * (+194) /* Introductions */
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12:59:56 <wob_jonas> but... this worked just a few hours ago. and I changed nothing, except for most of the code.
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19:09:27 <wob_jonas> I'd like to ask about a certain computational model that has both real-world and esoteric uses. I don't have any specific questions except what its name is, but I'd like any general information.
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19:12:04 <zzo38> I do not know how to answer if you do not give specific questions or at least to mention what kind of computational model it is.
19:13:07 <wob_jonas> The basic idea is that you have a computer with both a cpu+ram and a disk (which could be magnetic or solid state), but the computer could lose power at any moment unexpectedly, after which all the data in the ram and cpu is lost, and the program counter and other important registers are reset to some clean state from which you can boot easily.
19:14:35 <wob_jonas> The disk is non-volatile, but the sector you were writing at the moment when the power got lost can be corrupted, such that it will read with arbitrary contents and you can't directly tell that it is corrupt. (This is sort of a worst case model, a malicious corruption.)
19:15:52 <wob_jonas> In the simple case, you have just one machine like this, and you write software for this. There is a well-known way how you can do reliable operations on this, with cow and a one-bit transaction boolean choosing between two roots, but there are nontrivial costs so optimizing for this model can be interesting.
19:16:57 <wob_jonas> In more practical but harder to define real world cases, you have multiple computers each of which can lose power independently, and you want them to communicate with each other and solve tasks reliably, which is the difficult model that banks have to solve on their backend mainframes.
19:20:29 <wob_jonas> I was also thinking of a related computing model, in which you only have a RAM and cpu, the cpu has very few registers, the RAM is written one word or one byte at a time, but at least writing a word is atomic, and the program counter could be reset to the entry point of the program at any time between any two memory writes.
19:22:06 <wob_jonas> Obviously in all cases you need a little bit of progress guarantee, namely that at least sometimes the program gets ran for some nontrivial time, like for a day in the first case or 100000 instructions in the second case, but you still can't tell in advance when that will happen, because sometimes the program will get reset very early.
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19:38:37 <int-e> wob_jonas: "the cpu has very few registers" - do you intend those to be preserved when the CPU resets? (otherwise I don't quite see how this is relevant)
19:39:24 <wob_jonas> int-e: the program counter definitely have to be reset. for the rest of the registers, it doesn't matter, you can just imagine they're memory-mapped registers and that's why they're preserved.
19:39:42 <int-e> you mean you can't just do some big processing in the registers and commit with a few writes
19:41:23 <int-e> Anyway, this is easy to program for in principle (make a virtual machine with idempotent operations; update the virtual program counter last when emulating an instruction), and probably hard to optimize.
19:41:30 <wob_jonas> or you can also have a cpu that has no registers apart from the program counter, except for internal ones used within an instruction, and the single memory write happens at the end of the instruction, and the internal registers are forgotten at that point anyway, in which case you can't observe whether they're preserved at the reset or not.
19:41:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, exactly, easy to program in principle but annoying in practice
19:44:46 <int-e> Well I would've expected the whole CPU state to be reset. (There are hot-pluggable CPUs, right? Though I suppose that in reality you'll want to shut down the chip in an orderly fashion, power down the socket, then change the CPU and then boot the new one up. But I don't know.)
19:45:18 <wob_jonas> int-e: you can choose the whole cpu to be reset too, sure
19:45:44 <wob_jonas> I'm thinking more of a software emulation of this rather than an actual cpu
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22:26:19 <fungot> boily: ( ( go fishing yeah)) the one that's at home now i've got grandkids of about a month
22:26:44 <HackEso> Nostril is a common Québécois greeting.
22:26:45 <boily> fungot: no fishing, I'm staying inside with AC.
22:26:45 <fungot> boily: ( ( it's back at))
22:27:09 <HackEso> 11569:2018-05-29 <oerjän> learn Nostril is a common Qu\xc3\xa9b\xc3\xa9cois greeting.
22:28:40 <lambdabot> CYUL 012200Z 28008KT 15SM FEW025TCU FEW035 SCT150 OVC160 28/21 A2968 RMK TCU1CU1AC2AS5 TCU TR SLP053 DENSITY ALT 2000FT
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23:37:35 <esowiki> [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55491&oldid=52156 * Raddish0 * (+199) I added a link to the completely new specification for Micro Version 2
23:40:28 <esowiki> [[User:Raddish0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55492&oldid=52093 * Raddish0 * (+14) I am now 14 (way back in December, but I'm lazy)
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01:37:14 <zzo38> Point security cameras at clocks.
01:37:53 <zzo38> (I don't just mean having it record the time; include an actual clock in the picture.)
01:38:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see that video I linked?
01:39:29 <zzo38> No. I don't look at any videos anyone linked
01:44:56 <zzo38> I did not even see the link
01:45:25 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar9WRwCiSr0
01:53:32 <tswett> I thought of a type of toy the other day. Not necessarily a very *practical* toy, but certainly possible.
01:53:39 <tswett> A ground effect glider.
01:53:52 <tswett> You put it at the top of a ramp. It glides down the ramp without touching it.
02:04:39 <tswett> Yes, onions are well known for their ability to soar above sloped surfaces on a cushion of air.
02:05:38 <tswett> Here's a YouTube video with such a thing, but the guy launches it across level ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvxzGERqDXI
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03:11:06 <oerjan> TIL uranium is used for radiation shielding
03:11:16 <pikhq> Works pretty well, too.
03:11:40 <pikhq> Depleted uranium is only marginally more radioactive than background, and it's really dense.
03:14:14 <pikhq> (it is, however, still fairly toxic. Don't eat it.)
03:32:33 <zzo38> I once saw someone wrote a manga where they used mahjong tiles made of depleted uranium in order to make it difficult to cheat. They also increased the amount of oxygen in the room, also to make it difficult to cheat (by rubbing the writing off of the tiles). But they cheated anyways.
03:37:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like reverse emulation?
03:40:31 <zzo38> Reverse emulation meaning what?
03:41:49 <tswett> What, like emulating a PlayStation 4 on a GameBoy?
03:43:28 <shachaf> In the case of the video I linked
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06:40:35 <shachaf> Sgeo__: how come it's been so long since the last olist tdnh
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07:03:14 <oerjan> as long as it's not the olast
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10:59:50 <int-e> `` grep rm bin/*list
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11:08:09 <wob_jonas> Have you noticed how strange it is that the card name of "Black Lotus" has the word "black" in its name, when in old cards you only expect that in cycles of cards with a color name changed in them, such as the Runes and Circles of Protection, the alpha Wards, and the Mana Batteries?
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11:13:27 <int-e> . o O ( `mkx bin/evasivelist//D=$(dirname "$0"); F=$(basename "$0"); echo $F${@:+ }$@: $(tail -n+2 $0); mv $0 $(mktemp "$D/$F.XXX"); exit )
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11:19:10 <wob_jonas> also, watch the stuff tom7 released
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11:48:48 <wob_jonas> ah, I see shachaf already watched it
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12:08:21 <int-e> https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/05/how-to-reverse-emulate-super-nes-games-on-unmodified-nes-hardware/ has a summary
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12:45:22 <HackEso> xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
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13:15:59 <Cale> Who provided that pronunciation guide, I wonder. Seems a bit New Zealand-ish.
13:16:57 <Cale> The rest is just odd though :)
13:19:13 <HackEso> 9395:2016-10-22 <boil̈y> learn xkcd ([\xc9\xaaksk\xc9\x91sede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F. \ 9392:2016-10-22 <hppavilion[1̈]> slwd xkcd//s/kkk/kk/ \ 9391:2016-10-22 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn xkcd/xkcd ([kskkkd]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
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14:30:36 <Burundi> bidibidibidibidibidibidibidibidi ???????
14:32:51 <int-e> No, I don't think that space should be there.
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17:11:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jmbinder * New user account
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17:14:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55493&oldid=55490 * Jmbinder * (+132)
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17:30:39 <esowiki> [[Homespring]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55494&oldid=53689 * Jmbinder * (+117)
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17:42:24 <esowiki> [[Dimensions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55495&oldid=49648 * Digital Hunter * (+2) /* Example programs */
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18:45:29 <zzo38> If character is monstrous character with different physiology from human then your native language will also be very difference (if you can speak any languages), including different phonetics, and if you have multiple mouth that will change it too. Not just sound, but other thing including different environment, mentals, other physical stuff difference including difference eating/sleeping, gender, you will change many thing.
18:47:05 <zzo38> (And if they live in multiple countries then there may be more than one language too)
18:47:34 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
18:53:13 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55496&oldid=55417 * Digital Hunter * (+70) /* The c variable group */
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19:10:20 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55497&oldid=55496 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* The b variable group */
19:10:51 <fizzie> I thought I didn't do the en_NZ thing on HackEso.
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19:13:22 <fizzie> Guess I decided to go with tradition after all.
19:18:45 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55498&oldid=55497 * Digital Hunter * (+490) /* Some example programs */
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19:29:23 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55499&oldid=55498 * Digital Hunter * (-67) /* 99 bottles of beer */
19:30:06 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55500&oldid=55499 * Digital Hunter * (+12) /* 99 bottles of beer */
19:32:41 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55501&oldid=55500 * Digital Hunter * (+242)
19:34:24 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55502&oldid=55501 * Digital Hunter * (+12) /* 99 bottles of beer */
19:39:36 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55503&oldid=55502 * Digital Hunter * (+55)
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19:49:09 <zzo38> Still there is the use of ``` prefix if you want the C locale instead
19:49:33 <zzo38> (You can also specify your own with any command anyways)
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01:08:41 <oerjan> huh homespring's author showing up on the wiki
01:10:17 <doesthiswork1> All Hail The HypnoToad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvgIrpIgqDM
01:17:38 <esowiki> [[Suicide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55504&oldid=39462 * Galaxtone * (-4)
01:24:34 <oerjan> ...based on his twitter feed, dmm seems to have gotten a puppy as well as the kitten... this cannot be good for comic output.
01:34:41 <zzo38> I mentioned some thing about language speeching above do you know much about that? I have imagine that native language of Ziveruskex is going to have different phonetics, and might not have a separate word for "eat" vs "drink", or for "him" vs "her", maybe. Also they have only four fingers instead of five, may also difference, such as with base eight rather than ten.
01:36:52 <zzo38> I also found that Fossil includes a implementation of two way popen() kind of function.
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04:16:09 <Galaxtone> We're about to prove Emoji-gramming to be turning-complete
04:16:24 <Galaxtone> though not useful as the divmod is like O(n^3)
04:16:43 <Galaxtone> but we almost have substituion of brainfuck to emoji-gramming
04:17:50 <oerjan> . o O ( are you sure it can really turn by _any_ angle? )
04:18:46 <zzo38> That what can turn by any angle?
04:26:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see the NES video?
04:30:24 <zzo38> I have not. However, I have read messages on NESdev forum that relate to it (the ID number of the video matches the one you gave, so probably it is same thing), so, I know what it is.
04:34:51 <oerjan> zzo38: it was a pun on a typo hth
04:34:55 <zzo38> I do not watch videos on the computer (and I don't watch television much either)
04:35:27 <zzo38> oerjan: O, yes, OK I can see
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06:10:40 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia
06:10:42 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia
06:11:00 <zzo38> Which six US states?
06:23:10 <shachaf> i,i `learn The password of the month is early by almost a month
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07:23:36 <esowiki> [[Longplayer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55505 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2253) Created page with "Longplayer is a language loosely based on [https://longplayer.org/about/how-does-longplayer-work/ the music that bears its name]. It implements a control flow scheme that the..."
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12:02:11 <esowiki> [[Longplayer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55506&oldid=55505 * Plokmijnuhby * (+214) Clarifications and modifications
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14:43:12 <esowiki> [[Longplayer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55507&oldid=55506 * Plokmijnuhby * (+28) Why does a wikitable sometimes remove spaces and sometimes not?
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17:47:54 <zzo38> They mention in TeXbook that it would be possible to write an entire book about TeX output routines; the Appendix D of the TeXbook lists only a few. Do you know if any such book has been written?
17:57:28 <zzo38> There are other tricks that I have used with output routines, such as using insertions to communicate to the output routine. Although there is \write, that only works if the page is shipped out; it won't work before the page is shipped out or if it is not shipped out at all. So, you can use an insertion containing marks, with penalties in between, and then use \vsplit to extract the marks.
18:02:24 <zzo38> Output routines could be used to do many other things too, including to rearrange the order of pages, print an index in multiple columns, add rules into the outer edge of a page so that if you look at the edge of a closed book you can find a section, etc.
18:07:18 <zzo38> If you are using one pass to just figure out the cross references and not ship out anything, and then the second pass to fill them in, then there may be problem in case the resolved cross references change the size of a paragraph. One way to fix this is to ensure all section numbers (and/or page numbers, if applicable) have the same width.
18:08:19 <zzo38> Other way could be to use marks to record where the section headings are; the output routine can ensure they are on the correct page, and if not, can loosen or tighten the page to make them fit.
18:09:06 <zzo38> This way a cross-reference can include a page number that comes later than the reference itself.
18:20:46 <Vorpal> doesn't TeX and LaTeX traditionally resolve cross references in a first pass before rendering the pages in a second one?
18:21:23 <Vorpal> not sure how it handles if the target of the cross reference moves to another page after resolving cross references in between
18:22:59 <zzo38> TeX has no built-in mechanism for cross references.
18:23:44 <zzo38> I don't know if LaTeX handles that either.
18:23:47 <Vorpal> could you create a "meta stable" state of cross references, such that the calculated target pages changes every other re-run
18:24:32 <zzo38> I don't know, maybe. But I suggested a way to write output routines that can avoid such a "meta stable" state
18:26:51 <Vorpal> yes, I just wonder how noticeable such fixed width formatting would be for alternative 1. Or how noticeable such stretching/squeezing of the page would be for the second alternative
18:27:00 <Vorpal> you obviously want to avoid it looking ugly
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18:27:49 <Vorpal> it is probably very rare in any "real" document though
18:29:10 <zzo38> Yes, I think probably you are correct
18:34:54 <Vorpal> googling, there is apparently some latex package called varioref which will try to produce "smart" references, like "on the previous page" which can can cause really strange errors if it ends up split across a page boundary
18:46:05 <zzo38> You can put penalties to avoid it maybe
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19:49:30 <zzo38> You could prevent it being split across a page boundary
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22:04:28 <zzo38> Do you think these limits are sufficient? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/wiki?name=Limits
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23:10:38 <zzo38> Do you know of ZZTQED? That is another external editor for ZZT, although I think the idea can be use even with level editors for other games too (although with differences, because it is difference from ZZT game).
23:46:29 <imode> I always pondered writing a "modern" ZZT.
23:49:35 <imode> something with a configurable tileset and movement with lerp.
23:51:08 <imode> mouse controls, a standard level editor, a simple scripting language..
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01:04:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Infbf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55508 * Challenger5 * (+172) Created page with "Just wanted to mention that this language is very similar to 2<sup></sup> as described in [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/163699 my PPCG challenge to interpret it]."
01:11:03 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55509&oldid=55413 * Challenger5 * (+225)
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02:47:46 <zzo38> I thought of something a bit different, but yes some thing like that. Allowing the mouse to be used as well as the keyboard in the editor would help.
02:54:07 <zzo38> My own ideas was different though, you can define your own kind of pieces with their own flags, and pieces still is fit to grid. Even without configurable graphics though; rather, with different improvements.
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05:37:29 <oerjan> @tell Vorpal <Vorpal> could you create a "meta stable" state of cross references, such that the calculated target pages changes every other re-run <-- definitely. e.g. https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/154594
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07:03:03 * oerjan wonders if agatha will ever meet "Old Tobber", or if something's happened to him
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08:00:01 <esowiki> [[Longplayer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55510&oldid=55507 * Plokmijnuhby * (+95)
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08:13:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55511&oldid=55493 * Lol-md4 * (+143) Added my introduction
08:13:27 <esowiki> [[Intrnt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55512&oldid=52596 * Lol-md4 * (-197) Delete page. @totallyhuman no longer has this repo on GitHub.
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08:46:31 <oerjan> hm it does indeed seem to be gone
08:52:00 <oerjan> but i'm a bit loathe to delete it immediately when it isn't the author itself who asks
08:52:35 <oerjan> hm that definitely isn't the right word.
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09:14:09 <oerjan> ...this milk chocolate with coconut is addictive.
09:15:30 <oerjan> and i only started buying it because the shop chain sent me a free coupon
09:16:04 <oerjan> (mind you, i was already buying the plain variant)
09:41:19 <int-e> . o O ( now why does the shop have your address, I wonder )
09:41:37 <int-e> but I guess it could be an ordinary flyer type thing
09:47:08 <oerjan> int-e: because i have the chain's membership card
09:48:05 <int-e> next you'll be telling us that you use a debit or credit card to pay for your purchases as well
09:48:40 <oerjan> it's a co-op chain, so technically i'm theoretically part owner
09:49:21 <oerjan> although come to think of it they keep trying to push a credit card on me as well
09:55:10 <oerjan> apparently english uses i
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09:57:10 <int-e> German has nothing similar at all. I know it as EC-Karte (Germany, after the brand), or Bankomatkarte (Austria, by purpose (card for ATMs))
10:06:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55513&oldid=55410 * Saka * (+13) add
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12:21:24 <wob_jonas> my latest debit card actually has "debit" printed in large letters on the front side. this didn't use to be the case with previous cards
12:24:53 <int-e> mmm. mine says debit in the back, relatively small. never noticed that before
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12:40:08 <wob_jonas> oh, it also says "debit" in large letters on the hologram on the back. I think that's new too
12:42:15 <int-e> a hologram. heh, none here
12:45:46 <wob_jonas> a holographic sticker. isn't that standard feature on all debit cards, so much that they sell them on the black market too?
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12:51:22 <int-e> wob_jonas: not mine. the credit card has one.
12:52:04 <int-e> of course the main identifying feature is the chip. I wouldn't be surprised if the magnet stripe was basically empty.
12:54:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: it's not empty. there are several levels of fallback to older technologies still supported by the card: so you can pay by contactless, by chip, by magnetic strip (on older card readers with no chip support), by card number and name and expiry date and cvc code, and by card number and name and expiry date.
12:54:21 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55514&oldid=54680 * Ais523 * (+954) /* Computations in BCT */ Graue mentioned in an interview a while back that we have no actual proof of cyclic tag's TCness on the wiki, which is an issue as it's used for so many proofs; add (summaries of) the standard proof and a proof via [[DownRight]]
12:54:32 <wob_jonas> no matter how good the new ones are, the old insecure technologies are still there.
12:55:31 <wob_jonas> and that's just how the card point of sale communicates with the card, there's also a dimension of when the point of sale communicates with the bank
12:57:01 <wob_jonas> (there's also the tech, not available for this card, where when you pay with an embossed card, they make an impression of the card onto carbon paper or something)
12:58:00 <int-e> all that is fine and I'm still pretty sure that the debit card doesn't support non-EMV payments. There'll be some minimal information on the magnet stripe, so that door openers and the like work.
12:59:03 <int-e> The credit card is a different beast... not sure what works and what doesn't. It is embossed, for starters.
13:00:27 <wob_jonas> besides, the chip isn't even that old technology. my first debit card only had the magnetic stripe.
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13:00:54 <HackEso> 503) <itidus20> indirect addressing is a facile and inebrious kind of instruction which should be whomped away by languages \ 1196) <fizzie> I am in room number 404. <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door. \ 1242) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing) \ 1320) <shachaf> int-e does not like this [...] <int-e> shachaf:
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13:09:16 <esowiki> [[Subtractpocalypse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55515&oldid=49152 * Ais523 * (-1) typo
13:30:36 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55516 * Saka * (+3537) Created page with ":''Not to be confused with [[TP]], another language also based on toilet paper.'' The Toilet Paper Programming Language, or TPPL for short, is an esoteric language created by..."
13:32:13 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55517&oldid=55516 * Saka * (+66) Categories
13:33:08 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55518&oldid=55517 * Saka * (+1) mispelling
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14:33:23 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55519&oldid=55518 * Saka * (-155) /* Examples */ turns out it's really faulty
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15:20:59 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55520&oldid=55519 * Saka * (+183) Fixed example
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16:39:43 <zzo38> The wireless payment isn't so good, they should require a wire. I once wrote down how a protocol could work for such thing, better than what we have now. There are private keys, but the account holder only knows them if they specifically ask for them, for security. (Therefore you can implement the protocol yourself, to add additional passwords and whatever.)
16:40:28 <zzo38> This new one also avoid the case where the merchant will steal your password, but only if the customer has their own keypad (which might only be the case if they implement it by themself).
16:40:37 <zzo38> Fingerprints, too.
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16:41:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55521 * Zzo38 * (+207) Created page with "Under "Basics" it says the program must begin with "ENTER RESTROOM", but the example begins with "ENTER BATHROOM". Which is correct? --~~~~"
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18:46:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55522&oldid=54613 * Oerjan * (+209) /* There was already a TC-proof */ new section
18:48:53 <int-e> the more proofs the merrier
18:49:13 <int-e> it's just like brainfuck clones *runs* *ducks* *hides*
18:54:14 <oerjan> IZ NOT LIKE DAT AT ALL!
18:56:58 <oerjan> what is with this new spam that looks like five lines of some unreadable encoding
18:57:15 <fizzie> I think I got that too.
18:58:01 <int-e> huh I only got two random words in the subject, three in the body
18:58:17 <oerjan> i suppose it might look different (or be an exploit) in some other mail reader than pine
18:58:42 <fizzie> I think it is some sort of MIME-malformed message.
18:59:05 <fizzie> mutt shows some of the MIME bits as body text, which usually means it's malformed somehow.
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18:59:40 <fizzie> (Assuming it's the same thing. Mine's from "Beryl <>" with a subject line of "Re:High quality pharmaceutical intermediates".)
18:59:55 <oerjan> fizzie: i've got several
19:00:44 <oerjan> looking at the raw file, it seems to be that the base64 isn't actually decoded by alpine, but shown as plain text
19:00:59 <int-e> Heh, this guy sure knows his business idioms. "I have access to very vital information that can be used to move huge amount of money. I have done my homework very well [...]"
19:01:01 <oerjan> (it's marked as base64 encoded)
19:01:57 <oerjan> fizzie: mine is from pauline@shq.co.za with subject "Mamie"
19:02:33 <int-e> but no, I'm mostly getting loan offers.
19:03:32 <fizzie> "I am Maryam Jamili and I live in Kobane with my grand daughter."
19:03:46 <fizzie> Other people have just boring regular daughters, but Maryam's daughter is so grand.
19:03:49 <oerjan> and it's just five lines, so if it was something large it must have been cut off as well
19:04:52 <int-e> fizzie: it's motherly love I'm sure
19:05:02 <fizzie> The sales spam sometimes gets really very specific, too. Like this one guy peddling "Optical SFP&QSFP modules".
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19:05:34 <fizzie> I don't think a particularly large fraction of the general population needs to buy those.
19:06:08 <fizzie> I also get a bunch of SEO offers for esolangs.org.
19:06:10 <int-e> "we stole a truck and now we have all this stuff and no clue whom to sell it to"
19:07:29 <fizzie> There's a few with "Subject: uqbystd ynpeydk enxuxlb", body "omwuwjr ufjujpb eczinhh efsonfw azdussv", no MIME parts or anything, just a content-type text/plain.
19:07:38 <fizzie> I'm not sure what these are trying to accomplish.
19:09:23 <\oren\> FYI std::map::emplace does not REplace an existing element of the map
19:09:47 <\oren\> agh whyyyy this bug took a week to find, and it's a one line fix
19:10:38 <oerjan> . o O ( two letters? )
19:11:02 <\oren\> "hey, oren what did u do this week?" "changed foo2bar->emplace(foo,bar); to foo2bar[foo] = bar;"
19:12:34 <oerjan> . o O ( it only took him ten minutes, the rest was waiting for the build system )
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19:41:11 <Vorpal> hm I guess I didn't lose connection to IRC while upgrading my router firmware. neat
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19:42:41 <Vorpal> <\oren\> FYI std::map::emplace does not REplace an existing element of the map <-- right, it is like insert, not like operator[], iirc
19:43:07 <Vorpal> hm is there a replacing emplace?
19:45:04 <Vorpal> C++17 has insert_or_assign that doesn't require the value to be default constructible, but no replacing emplace
19:46:04 <Vorpal> that seems like a strangely missing operation
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20:04:15 <alercah> Vorpal: you can just do that yourself directly
20:07:43 <alercah> with an explicit destructor and placement new call
20:15:45 <HackEso> olist 1123: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:16:58 <HackEso> smlist 465: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
20:23:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55523&oldid=55522 * Ais523 * (+236) /* There was already a TC-proof */ I guess we now have three?
20:25:05 <esowiki> [[Intrnt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55524&oldid=55512 * Ais523 * (+197) Undo revision 55512 by [[Special:Contributions/Lol-md4|Lol-md4]] ([[User talk:Lol-md4|talk]]): generally speaking we don't delete this sort of page unless the author requests it; a dead link isn't a reason to delete a page
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21:33:46 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55525&oldid=55520 * Saka * (+20) /* Basics */
21:34:21 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55526&oldid=55525 * Saka * (-20) /* Examples */ tested
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23:03:43 <Galaxtone> I love how half of the things I thought had categories don't
23:03:59 <Galaxtone> well time to repolish all these things
23:04:17 <ais523> people keep forgetting
23:04:28 <ais523> I put a notice on the edit page and people /still/ keep forgetting
23:05:04 <ais523> I could go as far as telling the spam filter to shout at people who forget the categories but that seems like overkill, new people often fight enough with the spam filter as it is
23:05:16 <ais523> and an uncategorised page isn't exactly spam
23:05:44 <Galaxtone> question do you have any automatic script thing that adds uncategorized pages to some list like:
23:05:59 <Galaxtone> if not you could do that and people just come in and fix it or something
23:06:09 <Galaxtone> what applies here... time to look up all the categories.
23:06:47 <ais523> here you go: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages
23:07:31 <ais523> many of them are so bad that we just left them uncategorised in a hope that people would forget about them :-D
23:07:33 <ais523> but that doesn't apply to all of them
23:08:18 <ais523> lots of random brainfuck derivatives are like that
23:08:25 <Galaxtone> btw is uncategorized categories, a full list of all categories?
23:08:38 <Galaxtone> I'd think that you'd get to top level categories that go to all the others that aren't in a category
23:08:52 <ais523> we don't normally categorise categories, although some are categorised
23:08:54 <ais523> like the years, I think
23:09:08 <Galaxtone> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedCategories
23:09:51 <Galaxtone> it is categorized... under uncategorized categories
23:11:37 <ais523> oh, "Special:" and "Category:" are different
23:11:51 <Galaxtone> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Linear_bounded_automaton
23:11:55 <Galaxtone> "Wrong pluralization, please delete"
23:11:56 <ais523> "Special:" is autogenerated and the pages in it aren't "officialyl" categories
23:12:29 <ais523> wow, that happened so long ago that oerjan wasn't even an admin
23:13:03 <esowiki> [[Marbelous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55527&oldid=49826 * Ais523 * (-1) fix link to the LBA category
23:13:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Linear bounded automaton]]": redundant to [[:Category:Linear bounded automata]], not used
23:14:31 <Galaxtone> I bet this wiki is 30-60% just these tiny hidden small problems.
23:15:17 <ais523> it's a common issue on wikis
23:15:26 <ais523> the number of people contributing is normally higher than the number of people doing quality control
23:15:33 <ais523> this happens everywhere, even Wikipedia
23:15:50 <Galaxtone> just need a 24/7 coffe-addicated lonely free-timer who is willing to do mindless editting
23:15:55 <ais523> so older/overlooked content is often malformatted, missing categories, or any number of other problems
23:15:59 <Galaxtone> and send them out into these wikis
23:16:26 <Galaxtone> "missing categories" probably a common thing
23:16:36 <Galaxtone> as theres so many categories one does not simply look through each subsubsubcategory
23:17:13 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Categorization
23:17:21 <ais523> is basically a list of the categories that apply to languages
23:17:28 <ais523> I run through that when creating a new page to make sure I don't miss anything
23:17:51 <Galaxtone> "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or create this page."
23:18:08 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization
23:18:25 <ais523> (it's not a language called "Categorization" so it has the prefix to show that it's about the site itself)
23:18:27 <Galaxtone> This should be on the the side bar
23:18:59 <Galaxtone> I have not seen this at all and I doubt anyone I know knows about ti either
23:20:20 <ais523> it's linked from the edit page
23:20:25 <ais523> when you create a new page
23:20:43 <ais523> it's also linked from the Main Page
23:20:44 <Galaxtone> ok maybe change the font size to 64px xd
23:20:48 <ais523> "or find something more specific with the categories"
23:21:25 <ais523> but yes, one thing that many sites have discovered is that you can link something all over the place and most people will still miss it
23:21:27 <Galaxtone> but I guess it's just that effect of never completeness
23:21:42 <Galaxtone> where the whole population even if given something
23:22:14 <Galaxtone> hmmm well maybe they should try harder
23:22:27 <Galaxtone> put it in a place thats always there on ever place and make it big and flashy
23:23:00 <Galaxtone> if you animated it so it stood out
23:23:10 <ais523> people would assume it was an advert and tune it out?
23:23:19 <Galaxtone> on a site that doesn't have any ads?
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23:24:42 <Galaxtone> yes I usually don't spend much time just looking at the front page
23:24:52 <Galaxtone> I usually just go to the last visited page and jump around links
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23:28:29 <ais523> <code> for inline, <pre> for multiline
23:28:30 <Galaxtone> I knew it exists but I never actually tried to use it
23:28:47 <ais523> you can also use leading whitespace for multiline code blocks, although that'll do more parsing of the inside (and <pre><nowiki> will do less)
23:32:05 <Galaxtone> and it doesn't like indenting code
23:35:02 <Galaxtone> | style="text-align:center"| <code><nowiki>+</nowiki></code>
23:35:45 <ais523> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Tables
23:37:00 <Galaxtone> oh? you can do lists then sections using |+
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23:43:59 <ais523> many people are scared to edit pages
23:44:12 <ais523> in general you don't have to ask for permission to make an edit (just to make it again if someone disagrees with you :-P)
23:44:18 <Galaxtone> especially if they know it prints to irc
23:44:33 <Galaxtone> then there like omg this is not what the person did, there goign to be mad if I do this, aaaah i'll just leave.
23:44:38 <ais523> well, the flip side of that is that bad edits will go through by default so we want people to notice and fix them
23:45:00 <Galaxtone> so can I take something like commands and put it in a table?
23:46:41 <esowiki> [[Lennyfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55528 * Galaxtone * (+35) Made redirect to lenny fuck that you can actually type without the usage of the ctrl+c and ctrl+v brothers.
23:47:05 <Galaxtone> the language is small but what the heck
23:47:31 <esowiki> [[( )fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55529&oldid=50933 * Galaxtone * (+293) Reformatted the instructions
23:49:08 <ais523> one of the constants of the wiki is that it has a very large number of BF derivatives, most of which are too similar to each other
23:49:27 <ais523> you only really need one or two languages of a similar nature
23:49:34 <Galaxtone> I feel like either get the one who made the same idea but newer to get rid of it
23:49:51 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
23:50:32 <ais523> I guess the problem is that BF derivatives are too easy to write
23:50:36 <ais523> it doesn't take any real thought to make one
23:50:59 <Galaxtone> and alot of them probably dont answer basic questions
23:51:04 <ais523> here we go: BF except the - command multiplies the cell's value by -2 instead of decrementing it
23:51:05 <Galaxtone> like weather input is blocking or up to the interpreter
23:51:11 <shachaf> The good ones take thought to make.
23:51:12 <Galaxtone> like i feel like it should be explicit
23:51:18 <ais523> that's more interesting than over half of BF derivatives already :-P
23:51:36 <ais523> and I made it in about 10 seconds
23:51:53 <Galaxtone> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Consequential
23:51:58 <Galaxtone> what happened to half the instructions?
23:52:05 <ais523> they got deleted by mistake, AFIACT
23:52:10 <ais523> you can look in the page history to see the old version
23:52:16 <ais523> I didn't put them back because I wasn't sure what to do with it
23:52:51 <Galaxtone> but then mediawiki kah-poof's and its gone
23:53:13 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Consequential&diff=55482&oldid=55477
23:53:26 <ais523> looks like it was your edit that deleted them by mistake? the last six lines weren't copied over
23:53:55 <ais523> it's an easy mistake to make, though, and we store all the old versions to make this sort of thing easily fixable
23:53:56 <Galaxtone> i'll just ping the ownher for what they were suppose to do
23:54:27 <Galaxtone> i was merging the brainfuck and "extra action"
23:54:38 <Galaxtone> so that it was "strict" or "To the point" as to what it did.
23:54:58 <Galaxtone> however each command does something unwanted.
23:55:21 <Galaxtone> I predicate about 67 different versions that do something unwanted
23:55:49 <ais523> Consequential is interesting as BF derivatives go
23:56:01 <ais523> as you basically have eight instructions that are different from BF's
23:56:14 <ais523> the trick with writing the langauge is to look at the instruction as a whole, not the "base" instruction from BF
23:56:26 <ais523> you might be able to use the consequences for good, with the "main" purpose of the command being a drawback!
23:57:44 <Galaxtone> using 6 cells you can just run plain old brainfuck
23:58:05 <Galaxtone> ok apperently i'm dumb and i don't need to ask him
23:58:08 <ais523> are you sure? that seems like the sort of construction that's often possible but I didn't see an obvious way
23:58:16 <Galaxtone> it's litterly just brainfuck + extra action
23:58:28 <Galaxtone> its like ><- or something to do a +
00:00:52 <Galaxtone> anyway he's on the unoffical discord
00:00:54 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55530&oldid=55459 * Xanman12321 * (+17)
00:01:43 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55531&oldid=55530 * Galaxtone * (-14)
00:11:25 <Galaxtone> and I think I just figured out how to make Roie turing-complete
00:13:26 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge
00:13:59 <ais523> or, well, there's more than one way to define "smallest" but Nopfunge wins on most metrics!
00:14:28 <ais523> there's a demonstration on how it's TC towards the bottom of the page
00:14:33 <Galaxtone> I made a fungeoid that also has four instructions
00:14:49 <ais523> the main thing about Nopfunge is that you need part but not all the program to be repeating, which is a bit nontrivial
00:14:53 <Galaxtone> and It can simulate NAND and move data condtional so it should be TC
00:15:10 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Black may be worth looking at if what you care about is instruction count rather than conceptual simplicity
00:15:25 <Galaxtone> i still don't know how four directions can be TC
00:15:42 <ais523> so the minimum data storage you need for TCness is one queue or two counters, right?
00:15:52 <ais523> in Nopfunge, the x and y coordinates of the IP effectively form the two counters
00:15:58 <Galaxtone> uh for some reason your 1L link redirects to non existant page 1Land
00:16:05 <Galaxtone> but when I go into my address bar and delete "and"
00:16:17 <ais523> I blame your IRC client
00:16:25 <ais523> there's a space there between "1L" and "and" in my original comment
00:17:15 <ais523> that's very common on a page about a language family
00:17:23 <ais523> where some members but not all are implemented
00:17:48 <Galaxtone> whats the smallest instruction count they got?
00:19:55 <esowiki> [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55532&oldid=53846 * Ais523 * (+254) /* Black implementations */ Link to the Golly implementation
00:20:20 <ais523> 1L langauges are defined by being a 2D language with only NOP and "not NOP" as instructions
00:20:40 <ais523> most of them cheat by having instructions do things if you merely pass near them, in addition to doing things if you hit them directly
00:20:56 <ais523> e.g. Black will turn away from an instruction next to the path, and move an instruction in its path along a grid
00:20:58 <Galaxtone> unless you count an instruction like "x"
00:21:11 <Galaxtone> and making it do different things based on position
00:21:18 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary
00:21:25 <ais523> although at this point it is /definitely/ cheating :-D
00:22:49 <ais523> it's more zero-dimensional
00:23:25 <ais523> although with some languages, you can effectively say "it's a 2D language, just there's no way to turn the IP so it wraps round and round the first line forever"
00:23:57 <ais523> the https://esolangs.org/wiki/I/D_machine is a TC two-command language that doesn't cheat in any way, and the program wraps round and round forever
00:24:07 <ais523> so I guess you could see it as a "1D slice of a 2D language"
00:24:27 <ais523> if you want an actual fungeoid, though, you're going to need more instructions simply so that you can move the pointer around
00:24:33 <ais523> or you don't get very funge-like behaviour
00:25:39 <ais523> yep, although you're not gaining anything from the 2Dness of the language
00:25:43 <ais523> as the control flow is always the same
00:26:20 <Galaxtone> you could theoretically do what a brainfuck can do?
00:26:30 <ais523> well, the I/D machine has no control flow so you have to be a bit careful with how you do your I/O
00:26:37 <ais523> the normal way would be to use memory-mapping
00:27:01 <ais523> say "when the pointer goes to such and such an address, a value gets input to that address", probably a bit at a time as it's a very low-powered language
00:28:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Black Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55533&oldid=54111 * Ais523 * (+208) /* "A good GUI interpreter for Black" */ a rather late reply
00:28:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55534&oldid=55503 * Digital Hunter * (+117) added ... CATEGORIES!!! :)
00:30:07 <Galaxtone> wait that is the creator of surtic xd
00:32:20 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55535&oldid=55534 * Galaxtone * (+0)
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01:00:46 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55536&oldid=55535 * Digital Hunter * (+41)
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01:20:40 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55537&oldid=55526 * Saka * (+918) /* Examples */ hello, world!
01:22:35 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55538&oldid=55537 * Saka * (+165) /* Instructions */ stuff
01:22:52 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55539&oldid=55538 * Saka * (+8) /* Instructions */
01:41:54 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55540&oldid=55482 * Xanman12321 * (+440) Re-added removed BF commands.
01:50:24 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55541&oldid=55539 * Saka * (+305) /* Examples */ cat
01:56:13 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55542&oldid=55541 * Saka * (+3577) yay I made an interpreter
02:00:45 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55543&oldid=55435 * Saka * (+169)
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02:39:41 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55544&oldid=55443 * Saka * (+242)
02:49:43 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55545&oldid=55542 * Saka * (+25) category
04:08:55 <Vorpal> <alercah> with an explicit destructor and placement new call <-- hm, I guess you are right.
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06:19:16 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55546&oldid=55536 * Galaxtone * (+45) Yah that's not correct
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06:24:07 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55547&oldid=55546 * Galaxtone * (+113) Added an example program.
06:24:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55548&oldid=55544 * Galaxtone * (+106) Added surtic example program over here aswell.
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06:53:41 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55549&oldid=55547 * Galaxtone * (+0) Strings start at 1 not 0
06:55:22 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55550&oldid=55549 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
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10:25:45 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55551&oldid=55548 * Keymaker * (+487) Made one in Black.
10:35:28 <esowiki> [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55552&oldid=55532 * Keymaker * (+260) Linked the truth-machine as an another example.
10:38:30 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55553&oldid=55551 * Keymaker * (+3) Changed "I/O extension" in the comment to "output extension". My bad.
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11:27:13 <esowiki> [[Black]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55554&oldid=55552 * ZM * (+0) Correcting my name
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11:32:11 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55555&oldid=55553 * ZM * (+83) /* Implementations */
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12:31:06 <esowiki> [[Longplayer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55556&oldid=55510 * Plokmijnuhby * (+148)
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13:18:05 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55557&oldid=55545 * Saka * (+440) /* Instructions */ More!
13:19:32 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55558&oldid=55557 * Saka * (-3445) /* Python */ Make it go to my GitHub page
13:22:33 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55559&oldid=55558 * Saka * (-206) /* CAT Program */ GET
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14:15:07 <HackEso> 11570:2018-06-03 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia \ 11544:2018-05-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is <redacted>. \ 11509:2018-04-14 <oerjän> slwd password//s,.$,, \ 11508:2018-04-14 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is way too late to fool anyone. \ 11444:2018-03-07 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is Schizophrenic Lagomorph \ 11345:2018-02-15 <int-̈e> learn The passw
14:19:44 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55560&oldid=55550 * Digital Hunter * (+92) /* How it works */
14:20:47 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55561&oldid=55560 * Digital Hunter * (-41) /* 99 bottles of beer */
14:24:12 <int-e> `cwlprits password
14:24:14 <HackEso> oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän oerjän oerjän mroman̈_
14:24:55 <int-e> hmm, what was the variant of culprits that counts?
14:27:45 <alercah> Vorpal: note that it may actually not be more efficient to use placement new
14:27:52 <alercah> and even insert_or_assign uses assignment
14:31:55 <int-e> `paste bin/culprits
14:31:56 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/culprits
14:33:11 <int-e> `culprits-c wisdom/password
14:33:13 <HackEso> 27 oerjän 8 int-̈e 5 shachäf 1 mroman̈_ 1 mromän 1 gameman̈j 1 boil̈y
14:33:27 <int-e> seems a bit biased
14:40:35 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55562&oldid=55559 * Saka * (-32) /* Interpreters */
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15:36:19 <Vorpal> <alercah> and even insert_or_assign uses assignment <-- yes I noticed that
15:37:04 <Vorpal> <alercah> Vorpal: note that it may actually not be more efficient to use placement new <-- would heavily depend on the type and other things
15:37:33 <Vorpal> if there are any secondary allocations due to data on heap for example it would definitely reduce the benefits
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17:55:49 <wob_jonas> fizzie: does HackEso have the channel logs mapped somewhere on the fs of the sandbox?
17:56:15 <wob_jonas> or are they on different machines? I can't follow what's on what machine now after the changes.
18:05:22 <fizzie> It's not mapped, but it's physically the same machine. There's the UML sandbox and a Linux container (systemd-machined) around the HackEso part, but no network separation.
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18:06:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: wait what? no network separation? hackeso did have network separation. this increases hackeso's power a lot, as well as how much it can be abused
18:07:54 <fizzie> I mean "no network separation" in the sense that a network connection would be needed between the logs and HackEso.
18:08:48 <wob_jonas> I was thinking it wouldn't go through the network, just a file system mapped read-only, although a network could be useful for other services,
18:09:22 <int-e> fizzie: does the UML sandbox map a part of the linux fs where you could bind mount the logs? (not saying you should, just wondering whether it would work... actually from what I remember of umlbox, it could do the bind mount itself?)
18:10:06 <fizzie> I haven't set up any outgoing networking from the UML sandbox. The container has it's own network namespace with a point-to-point virtual interface that can access the host system, with pretty strict firewall rules.
18:10:52 <fizzie> int-e: I would need to first bind-mount the logs into the container, after which UML hostfs could expose them in the sandbox. But it's doable.
18:11:23 <wob_jonas> we don't want the logs accidentally deleted or worse
18:11:27 <fizzie> That said, I have some WIP code for the web logs frontend to offer a (trigram indexed regex) search facility, and my plans involved just exposing that (over HTTP) into the sandbox.
18:11:42 <int-e> fizzie: ah right, the outer container layer is new
18:11:54 <int-e> fizzie: still it sounds easier than making a network connection
18:12:28 <int-e> it's a database, right?
18:13:00 <fizzie> It's not really a database, but it's not plaintext either.
18:13:35 <fizzie> It's length-delimited protobufs, one file per day, Brotli-compressed.
18:14:12 <int-e> wob_jonas: the IRC logs that fizzie keeps... I recalled that http://esolangs.org/logs/2018-05-raw.txt aren't actually files but generated on the fly; the rest was assumptions
18:14:33 <wob_jonas> fizzie: approximately how big are the logs? I wonder if it's easier to download them (at least the last ten years or so)
18:14:56 <wob_jonas> as in, me having a local copy that I can search
18:15:02 <int-e> (I wish they were files so that wget -c could work :P)
18:15:21 <int-e> basically for the same reason
18:15:28 <fizzie> Let me get to a computer and I'll tell you. Pawing on the phone is getting a bit limiting.
18:21:00 <fizzie> int-e: It might be possible to make wget -c work, depending on how easy civetweb makes supporting range requests.
18:21:35 <wob_jonas> I guess you could cache the formatted versions of the last few days, and serve them directly
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18:24:23 <fizzie> I thought I also set up an (undocumented) URL pattern that let you download the raw protos, but I can't seem to see that anywhere in the code, so maybe I was dreaming.
18:25:09 <wob_jonas> fizzie: are there redirects that always go to yesterday's log and today's log respectively, regardless the date?
18:25:46 <fizzie> No. The closest to that is the stalker mode page, which returns the *contents* of yesterday's and today's logs.
18:26:02 <fizzie> (The HTML version also uses a websocket protocol to stream live data.)
18:26:41 <fizzie> (Stalker mode has the same .txt and -raw.txt formats available.)
18:28:18 <fizzie> The compressed protos (well, the last few days aren't actually compressed; it's a separate step that runs by cron and does all but the last few days) take up about 120 mebibytes. I don't remember how much the -raw.txt format takes.
18:28:40 <esowiki> [[Parent the Sizing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55563 * Digital Hunter * (+0) Created blank page
18:29:03 <wob_jonas> the raw text won't be much bigger either than
18:29:13 <wob_jonas> I mean, perhaps only twice or three times as big
18:29:23 <fizzie> They do compress pretty well. But not more than an order of magnitude.
18:29:45 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I have a copy somewhere of the codu.org logs, since that's where I backfilled the data from (mostly).
18:30:21 <wob_jonas> ah! I was wondering how you got the old logs
18:30:42 <fizzie> Ah, there we go. 488 mebibytes, for logs up to 2016-04-03-raw.txt.
18:31:15 <fizzie> The gap from there to the start of the 'esowiki' bot comes from my personal logs, which you can actually tell if you look at the raw files because all the microsecond timestamps are 0.
18:31:54 <wob_jonas> and I can skip the early weeks if I want
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18:58:37 <HackEso> ysaclist 76: boily shachaf
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19:52:59 <esowiki> [[Turing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55564 * Joshop * (+901) Created page with "Turing is [[Turing complete]]. It simulates a Turing machine. == Specifying the machine == Turing uses a binary format. First you must specify how many symbols you are using...."
20:01:15 <wob_jonas> question. for a variation of BASIC that supports both 32-bit integer and bigint types, what sigils would you use for those types, and what names would you use for the equivalents of the DEFINT and CINT functions?
20:03:44 <wob_jonas> or if it has both 32-bit and 64-bit ints. 16-bit ints are such a past thing.
20:08:32 <\oren\> 🍁🍁Patriots buy only genuine Canadian maple syrup. 🍁
20:09:41 <\oren\> wob_jonas: sigil + for integer, # (number sign) for bignum
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20:12:17 <wob_jonas> \oren\: wouldn't that be syntactically ambiguous? as in, does F+(3) could mean indexing the variable F+ with 3, or adding 3 to the variable F
20:12:33 <wob_jonas> also, # usually means "double-precision float", although not necessarily IEEE double-precision float
20:13:31 <wob_jonas> the normal sigils are % for 16-bit integer, ! for single float, # for double float, & for 32-bit integer, and $ for string
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20:25:08 <\oren\> wob_jonas: well the + operator is unecessary anyway. x--y works fine for x+y
20:27:26 <wob_jonas> \oren\: not for 32-bit integers, since basic errors on an overflow
20:27:35 <\oren\> although maybe there are better candidates that aren't used in basic
20:27:48 <wob_jonas> also, this hypothetical version wants to at least somewhat resemble BASIC
20:28:01 <wob_jonas> \ is tricky, some BASICs use it as integer division, and I sort of like that
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20:28:37 <wob_jonas> you can use @, which some basics use as a sigil, or lots of other characters
20:28:54 <wob_jonas> although @ does have other uses, I think they don't conflict a sigil
20:31:02 <\oren\> `tell oerjan how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish?
20:31:03 <HackEso> I think you mean "@tell oerjan how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish? " instead?
20:31:04 <wob_jonas> you could use certain characters that are unused by most basics, except perhaps as extra identifier characters with an iso646-based character set, namely []~{}
20:31:08 <\oren\> @tell oerjan how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish?
20:31:40 <wob_jonas> or you could use some characters that don't conflict with being a sigil, like ?
20:31:47 <wob_jonas> oh, also ` is free in all basics I know
20:32:12 <wob_jonas> | might be the best actually, because you can say it's an arbitrarily long line, representing an arbitrarily bit integer
20:32:41 <wob_jonas> you could also use double sigils, like %% && %& &% %# but that gets ugly
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20:35:29 <\oren\> wob_jonas: worked for perl? or did it
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20:37:00 <\oren\> it seems like everyone prefers the -> notation in perl
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00:14:59 <boily> fungot: do you have issues with your machine? mouse freezing?
00:15:04 <boily> fungot: so you do!
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00:56:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55565&oldid=55293 * Rdococ * (+285)
01:02:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55566&oldid=55565 * Rdococ * (+2)
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02:31:49 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> seems a bit biased <-- just so you know i waited an extra day just to give y'all a chance hth
02:32:14 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 6h 1m 5s ago: how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish?
02:33:23 <HackEso> 5838:2015-07-12 <b_jonäs> ` o=bin/culprits-c && echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\n\'\'culprits "$@" | tr \\ \\\\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\\\n\\ \\ \' > "$o" && chmod a+x "$o"
02:33:42 <HackEso> c[uw]lprits lists the nicks responsible for a file or wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits FILE or `cwlprits ENTRY
02:35:40 <oerjan> `learn `culprits-c is like `culprits, but gives nicks with counts instead of repeating them.
02:35:42 <HackEso> Learned '`culprits-c': `culprits-c is like `culprits, but gives nicks with counts instead of repeating them.
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02:43:00 <imode> are there any resources around as to using a queue as RAM? I'm thinking queues as in queue automata. a naive thing to do would be to just keep cycling the queue until you hit the specific cell/address you want but I'm wondering if there's an alternative method.
02:43:59 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ culprits "$@" | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\n\ \
02:44:50 <shachaf> I was going to say, better to show them sorted by first appearance.
02:44:58 <shachaf> But I guess sorted by count might be ore meaningful.
02:46:06 <oerjan> isn't sorted by count what we usually are looking for anyway
02:47:33 <HackEso> 118 shachäf 53 oerjän 11 boil̈y 5 noloveinwaikik̈i 2 Jafët 1 nitïa 1 int-̈e 1 hppavilion[1̈]
03:00:48 <\oren\> oerjan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvB-kv9q7Pk
03:01:05 <oerjan> well timed, you just avoided a snarky @tell
03:06:31 <oerjan> \oren\: the "Hej på deg Monika" sounds nearly the right except that the "d" is somehow an "l". The rest of the song doesn't sound like much like real swedish except for the occasional word.
03:07:27 <oerjan> mind you, i don't remember the swedish original
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09:50:30 <esowiki> [[Qwertypy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55567 * Saka * (+2260) Python clone
10:05:14 <Vorpal> that... seems pointless
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10:31:11 <Vorpal> @tell arseniiv Thinking of an esolang using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatrod_system
10:32:57 <Vorpal> the problem is how to specify it in a way in a text file that isn't a total mess
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10:36:35 <Vorpal> apparently there is a lot more details about it on the Swedish wikipedia
10:38:30 <Vorpal> Is there any heavily physics based esolang? I.e. where it would make sense to use a full blown 3D game engine to implement it
10:41:01 <Vorpal> arseniiv: pinball computing
10:41:22 <Vorpal> take a pinball game engine and compute stuff in it
10:42:12 <arseniiv> bet it would look very spectacular
10:43:01 <arseniiv> and to program on it, one maybe could utilize genetic programming, if it will be too hard
10:43:24 <arseniiv> (hm, how do people write in Malbolge? IDK)
10:44:05 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer
10:55:39 <arseniiv> Vorpal: oh, have you seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomogram ?
10:56:00 <arseniiv> they can compute pretty complex things sometimes
10:57:50 <Vorpal> ah yes, seems familiar, but didn't remember the name of it
11:06:05 <Vorpal> arseniiv: found this, which seems insane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton_Rover_for_Extreme_Environments
11:07:26 <Vorpal> found it via mechanical computers
11:30:13 <fizzie> Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age book is all about (well, not quite, but a lot) "rod logic", which is like a hypothetical (probably unfeasible) nanotechnology-enabled version of that.
11:33:47 <Vorpal> something as simple as:
11:33:49 <Vorpal> CADD #1, #2, #3 If addr #1 is non-zero, add #2 to #3 (writing back result to #2)
11:33:49 <Vorpal> CHLT #1 If addr #1 is non-zero, halt the program
11:33:49 <Vorpal> The entire program will loop at the end
11:35:45 <Vorpal> I guess on top of that you would need to be able to fill the initial data area as well
11:37:24 <Vorpal> you could get rid of CHLT if you defined halting as "none of the CADD instructions were executed during the last loop"
11:38:28 <Vorpal> even if addition doesn't work for this, there may be some other instruction that would
11:42:39 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55568&oldid=55543 * Saka * (+32)
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12:40:48 <lambdabot> EGSC 061220Z 04007KT 350V110 9999 FEW028 19/11 Q1015
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13:03:45 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55569&oldid=55540 * Galaxtone * (+2) fix 'eam!
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13:16:35 <arseniiv> CHLT #1 => almost misread this as CTHLH
13:17:51 <arseniiv> Cthulhu awakens in a neighboring thread, performs some slightly stochastic and potentially harmful computation and then cthlhalts
13:20:35 <arseniiv> also I didn’t get what these instructions are related to. :) They remind of Minsky machine
13:25:53 <Vorpal> arseniiv: trying to design a minimal computer that is TC without any branch instruction
13:26:29 <Vorpal> I looked at some OISCs, and all seem to have instructions like "do x and then conditionally branch"
13:27:14 <Vorpal> so I wondered if you could replace that branch by simple conditional execution
13:35:21 <arseniiv> hm without global looping you mentioned I think it should be impossible outright, but with that…
13:42:13 <Taneb> Vorpal: if you can conditionally modify an upcomic instruction it might be doable
13:42:25 <Taneb> But that's almost reimplementing conditional branching
13:45:57 <Vorpal> Taneb: I was thinking of separate code and data memory
13:46:59 <arseniiv> let’s see with recursive functions. 0 is representable, successor is too (with initial data), projections are also, but then we’re stuck with composition, if one of the functions uses the global loop: as we can’t subtract, we can’t switch off the code of the first one; we could switch on the second but not switch off the first. This isn’t a proof, of course, but it should be almost one
13:47:52 <arseniiv> and I think there would be even greater problems with recursion and μ
13:50:53 <Vorpal> arseniiv: we can subtract assuming 2-complement and a finite word size
13:51:51 <Vorpal> just add negative numbers
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13:52:17 <arseniiv> with finite word size, it’s even harder; how should we be able to address an unbounded count of memory cells
13:52:50 <arseniiv> with unbounded negative numbers — oh why not!
13:52:53 <Vorpal> err, that would be a 24-bit word, missed one pair of ff for 32-bit word
13:53:05 <Vorpal> arseniiv: surely bounded if you have a finite word size
13:53:26 <Vorpal> <arseniiv> with finite word size, it’s even harder; how should we be able to address an unbounded count of memory cells <-- code and data is separate here
13:53:47 <Vorpal> so you could have unbounded integers for addresses
13:53:57 <arseniiv> ah, stop, do we address indirectly?
13:54:14 <Vorpal> that wasn't the idea, but you might need this
13:54:40 <Vorpal> my idea was CADD taking 3 immediate address operands
13:54:50 <arseniiv> without indirect addressing or infinite numbers, you definitely should, or we will have bounded memory available to any one program
13:55:40 <Vorpal> okay but if they are indirect addresses we can't address infinite memory
13:55:53 <Vorpal> if we still use bounded data words
13:57:43 <Vorpal> arseniiv: so we can make it work with bignum signed integers for words
13:57:55 <Vorpal> in that case, do we still need indirect addressing?
14:00:01 <arseniiv> maybe not, but IDK what to do with recursion and μ yet (or maybe it’s better to try representing something other like BF machine)
14:02:02 <arseniiv> now we could swith on and off various segments of code (if only there’s not too many of them) while looping, it looks hopeful
14:03:29 <Vorpal> (if only there’s not too many of them) <-- As long as there is finitely many there shouldn't be an issue. It will be complicated yes, but not impossible
14:09:42 <arseniiv> having subtraction, copying, multiplication, division and remainder (seems all are yes), we could manipulate strings/arrays, then we should be able to implement a Minsky machine! Registers go in one array, the code in the other, and a cell for IP. Don’t I miss anything?
14:10:17 <arseniiv> but we can’t take the sign of a number
14:11:39 <arseniiv> we could rely on data being all nonnegative numbers except for −1 which we need explicitly
14:13:03 <arseniiv> then the task remaining is to demonstrate my claim in detail, but I’m laaazy :(
14:20:35 <arseniiv> oh, we couldn’t switch on/off _any_ code, could you add another argument to CADD, so that it will be
14:20:36 <arseniiv> CADD #0, #1, #2, #3 if #0 and #1 are both non-zero, add #2 to #3 (writing back to #2)
14:23:07 <arseniiv> also division etc. are unnecessary to show realizable, I’ve gone too meta
14:34:35 <arseniiv> also could it be not “and” but a “nand” instead, I couldn’t make JZDEC
14:43:41 <HackEso> carandycoin sqicoin noonchirlingcoin celucoin glucidecoin resolabocoin nigminiuscoin smicoin 8091114coin luicalcoin chilopolymphcoin bullcoin sonalcoin endslrocoin xbritcoin fisccoin cariumcoin vertcoin frestfcoin sethaxcoin
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14:48:05 <arseniiv> Vorpal: hm I even boldly suggest CADD have 5 arguments, #−1, #0, #1, #2, #3, all #−1..#1 should be nonzero to make addition
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15:00:23 <imode> anybody have some literature on doing stuff like binary arithmetic on a queue machine?
15:01:02 <arseniiv> (about arguments to CADD) two have been enough, horay!
15:19:41 <arseniiv> @tell Vorpal implementation of any Minsky machine, if CADD has two arguments as I’ve suggested: https://gist.github.com/arseniiv/17559458c07a254b84217452c72766e0
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19:38:33 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55571&oldid=54876 * Cyantologist * (+332) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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19:51:41 <wob_jonas> imode: I have an implementation of biginteger arithmetic, representing integers as basically a list of bits, in haskell. dunno if that helps.
19:52:15 <wob_jonas> you can also try to look for strange exercises in TAOCP
19:52:31 <wob_jonas> http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs
19:54:05 <wob_jonas> I also have arithmetic on Zeckendorf representation, and asked in this channel at some point how you could do arithmetic in nega-Zeckendorf, for which zzo38 actually wrote a solution
19:54:32 <wob_jonas> I recommend that if you want to be masochistic, it's much harder to understand how to do it than in binary
19:56:58 <wob_jonas> http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=989716 has add, subtract and compare in Zeckendorf, and http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=849259 has one in decimal although it uses the arithmetic built into perl for single-digit numbers, you could adapt that to binary
19:57:18 <imode1> huh? I already know how to do that.. I was wondering specifically for algorithms centerdd around queue machines.
19:57:22 <wob_jonas> in any case, I think doing anything like this with just one queue would be horribly inefficient, because just one queue sucks. avoid it if you can.
19:58:04 <wob_jonas> imode: for queue machines, I think you can merge two numbers so their digits alternate in a single pass, if you have a not too small alphabet
19:58:31 <wob_jonas> yeah, that would be impossible, sorry
19:58:47 <imode1> if you don't know what I'm talking about you can just not answer me. :P
19:58:57 <wob_jonas> but anything is hard on a queue machine
19:59:41 <imode1> a queue machine can simulate a turing machine's tape, so that's a way you can do things like unary and binary arithmetic.
20:00:18 <imode1> but I was just wondering if there were algorithms oriented towards the queue datastructure, rather than just letting a tape lie on top of it.
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20:15:32 <imode> wob_jonas: sorry for being rude, just been banging my head against the wall trying to find relevant literature. everything just seems to point to "hey, an FSM + queue == a turing complete automata", but I've been searching for algorithms that are typically executed on turing machines (things like arithmetic and comparisons, etc).
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21:53:19 <esowiki> [[Les Accents Franais]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55578 * Digital Hunter * (+241) made a page
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22:12:12 <esowiki> [[Parent the Sizing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55580&oldid=55577 * Digital Hunter * (+264) meh
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04:16:13 <imode> I'm having a crisis.
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04:51:35 <imode> so I've been going through some automata theory recently, trying to soak up all I can from a bunch of resources, and looking into odd automata.
04:51:51 <imode> 2-stack PDAs, queue automata, storage modification machines, the works.
04:52:36 <imode> something I've been frustrated at is that nobody seems to be doing anything "practical" with these machines outside of simulating a TM tape.
04:53:20 <imode> so for something like a queue automata, I don't know what an addition algorithm for two binary numbers looks like using purely the queue, but I know what the translated-from-a-TM version looks like with a marker to mark the end of the tape.
04:54:45 <imode> why in the world did you bother then? sure, you showed that these models are TC, but is the end goal of using these models to just simulate a TM tape, plop down the equivalent transitions and call it a day?
04:55:50 <imode> are turing machines really the simplest universal automata that can be devised? every other model just seems to target them!
04:56:01 <imode> apart from register machines and counter machines and such.
04:56:23 <imode> just seems like if you go any lower you hit a point where you have to abstract upwards to a TM and its tape.
04:57:51 <imode> I guess you could argue there are varying forms of complexity (in terms of step counts and such for simple operations) but if you're abstracting upwards you're always going to be slower than a TM!
05:05:29 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55582&oldid=55581 * Saka * (+12) bold
05:05:40 <imode> I just really wonder if there's a point of finding smaller and smaller models of computation if we're just going to do all of our work by simulating a TM.
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15:07:21 <Vorpal> <arseniiv> Vorpal: hm I even boldly suggest CADD have 5 arguments, #−1, #0, #1, #2, #3, all #−1..#1 should be nonzero to make addition <-- huh?
15:08:35 <Vorpal> <arseniiv> oh, we couldn’t switch on/off _any_ code, could you add another argument to CADD, so that it will be <-- hm, can't you switch off a variable currently? Setting it to zero?
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15:10:41 <Vorpal> @tell arseniiv okay will look at that tomorrow, busy this evening. But CHLT shouldn't be needed, You could define halting as when no instruction was executed during the last iteration. At that point it is obvious nothing more can happen
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15:49:29 <arseniiv> hm, can't you switch off a variable currently? Setting it to zero?> can and do in gist linked, but it’s not enough (I suppose)
15:53:10 <arseniiv> t could be it’s just my faulty implementation idea, but I couldn’t think of something else
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17:49:44 <int-e> . o O ( The next 500 markup languages. )
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19:00:32 <Vorpal> arseniiv: fair enough, okay
19:00:40 <Vorpal> will have to look in it further tomorrow
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01:50:28 <zzo38> QuickBASIC is using @ for 64-bit fixed-point.
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04:08:33 <zzo38> Using ? in BASIC is only an abbreviation for PRINT, so using as a type sigil too should not cause an ambiguity. (Although, I would probably using the new sigil for 8-bit variables, rather than bignums, I think; you could use DIM ... AS for many other types anyways
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07:53:56 <oerjan> i seem to have got a bunch of mail bounces for someone sending spam with my address :/
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12:23:19 <wob_jonas> At my past job, the company had multiple rooms that each open to a public corridor in an office building that isn't exclusive to the company. These rooms had different keys for the door locks. In order that the company doesn't have to give keys for every room to every employee to every room, but only to the rooms they usually use, there are some ke
12:23:19 <wob_jonas> ys that are kept in certain rooms for accessing other rooms,
12:24:38 <wob_jonas> and those keys are supposed to be returned to the prior room. The keys have tags, and these tags display what room they open. But IMO the tags should also list which room the key is stored in, so you know where to return it. Is there a convention for how to format such a label with two room numbers or room descriptions in a clear way?
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13:43:25 <wob_jonas> oerjan: you were right about DMM. http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?p=169770
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14:47:25 <int-e> yay another GDPR mail... in actual GREEK! (I'm assuming it's about the GDPR because that's mentioned in the subject)
14:48:34 <wob_jonas> I got some too. I think there are even phishing emails that refer to that thing and ask you to accept the modified terms of service.
14:49:27 <wob_jonas> I still don't understand what the big deal is about GDPR. Its rules are basically the same as we already had, the only significant change I understand is that they'll try to force it on providers from outside of Europe if they collect data from Europe.
14:50:58 <int-e> wob_jonas: the GDPR has (some) people scrambling to get the "informed optin" that the GDPR asks for
14:51:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but that was already a thing required everywhere
14:51:45 <int-e> so basically, people who are trying to operate legally and used to rely on obscure checkboxes (or the like) on third party websites years ago as "opt in"
14:51:46 <wob_jonas> I think websites are just using the popularity to send advertisment emails
14:52:00 <wob_jonas> which is basically the opposite of the spirit of the laws
14:52:10 <fizzie> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GDPR_(General_Data_Protection_Regulation)_and_MediaWiki_software should probably have a look at this at some point
14:52:52 <int-e> wob_jonas: when has the spirit of the law ever mattered when the letter of the law had holes?
14:53:19 <wob_jonas> but the GDPR hasn't changed that either
14:53:24 <fizzie> I got that one GDPR email that was also in the hall of shame, the one that was disguised as order confirmation.
14:54:10 <fizzie> wob_jonas: https://gdprhallofshame.com/3-order-confirmation-gdpr/
14:55:10 <fizzie> "We’d like to unreservedly apologise for sending this email to some customers that received it."
14:55:20 <fizzie> Note that they're not apologizing to everyone who received it, only some.
14:55:38 <int-e> I have one really odd one so far, where a company claims that the data record they're using comes from themselves... and I've never heard of the company before. Oh and they are not asking for opt-in, they're offering opt-out.
14:55:56 <int-e> which irritates me quite a bit
14:56:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: like I said, some of those are spam ads or phishing
14:56:41 <int-e> It's clearly spam.
14:58:20 <int-e> I think that's a case where I'll take them up on their offer to explain how they got that email address and what other data they have on me.
14:59:25 <wob_jonas> int-e: is that a good idea? if they're sending spam, that will just make them send you more spam. unless you're prepared to go very far and sue them at courts or something.
14:59:55 <wob_jonas> as in, they'll sell the email address of people who follow links in that email to other people to send spam
15:00:07 <int-e> I don't really mind getting spam that much... if I would, I wouldn't still be using an email address that I used on usenet in the late 90s and early 00s
15:00:44 <wob_jonas> int-e: sure, I don't usually mind spam either, but I don't encourage it by contacting spammers
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16:42:32 <int-e> . o O ( so... why is www.softwareheritage.org not accessible without Javascript? On the plus side, the actual archive at https://archive.softwareheritage.org/ seems to work fine... )
16:43:09 <int-e> . o O ( ...until you try to actually search something )
17:17:33 <Lymia> The worst thing since sliced bread
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17:27:10 <fizzie> Web 3.11 for Workgroups is much better.
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18:41:49 <\oren\> apparently a "pathetic fallacy" doesn't mean a "pitifully bad logical error"
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19:25:55 <zzo38> I once saw someone suggested, what if your character can see the author's room? I might imagine that Ziveruskex may think, he must be very rich to have so many books
19:39:00 <esowiki> [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55597&oldid=53463 * Zseri * (+35) /* new Syntax elements */ fix table caption
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20:32:13 <zzo38> Sometimes the printer on my computer does not work; would it work to connect a Raspberry Pi computer to the same router of my computer and then connect that to the USB printer and then use the ethernet to send the print job?
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21:22:56 <arseniiv> printers are definitely black magic, I haven’t seen any other device comparable
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21:26:01 <zzo38> When it works, it works perfectly OK. When it does not work, it can result in the computer saying the printer is not ready, and/or uninterruptible processes, and/or kernel panics.
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22:43:32 <arseniiv> (fungot is silent—how is it possible, is it ill?)
22:43:32 <fungot> arseniiv: i don't really know much about them
22:44:25 <fungot> arseniiv: ( ( okay i i this is my second one too
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23:07:08 <quintopia> we never did play a game. tell me when.
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23:14:02 <boily> I got a new machine to play games on :D
23:15:04 <fungot> boily: i collect glass fnord you know other things that
23:16:06 <quintopia> we could not starve together. i know another guy who has it now.
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23:34:32 <boily> nah, it ubuntues. windows didn't want to be installed.
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00:45:23 <zzo38> A code I have written recently uses the upsert function that has been recently added to SQLite; it is a useful function to have.
00:45:59 <zzo38> (That function was released four days ago.)
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04:08:20 <zzo38> What happens when Microsoft buys GitHub? Many people have said many different things. I do not use GitHub for my own projects, anyways, but many people do, including Microsoft. For now the only thing I expect is that they might require all accounts to be changed to Microsoft but everything else would continue to work; but, I don't know. Do you guess better?
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06:25:20 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: you were right about DMM. http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?p=169770 <-- time to gloat or cry, or ... hey puppy!
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06:39:44 <oerjan> <fizzie> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GDPR_(General_Data_Protection_Regulation)_and_MediaWiki_software should probably have a look at this at some point <-- that looks extremely unauthoritative.
06:40:44 <oerjan> as in, after looking at a small part at that i don't trust those who edited that to have a clue at all.
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07:56:45 <HackEso> smlist 466: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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09:12:13 <wob_jonas> boily: a new machine? is it a good one?
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09:25:52 <Vorpal> zzo38: I expect they are going to add easy integration with their cloud services (Azure) in some form.
09:26:07 <Vorpal> I.e. deploy to azure or something like that
09:26:30 <Vorpal> as for account I don't know. My linked in account is not connected to microsoft and it was a few years ago they bought linked in iirc
09:28:32 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: maybe it will only be required for accounts registered in the future, and you can keep existing accounts not linked, like how I think skype works now (I'm not quite sure)
09:29:48 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: for linkedin I think I registered after microsoft had bought it already
09:30:09 <wob_jonas> I'm really not sure. I can use my existing skype account, but I haven't tried to register a new one, so I can't tell how that works.
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19:33:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55598&oldid=55561 * Digital Hunter * (+76)
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23:09:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55599 * Kaa-kun * (+145) I am a bot and I know the correct program
23:10:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55600&oldid=55599 * Kaa-kun * (+31) Better formatting on top H1
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00:15:24 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55601&oldid=55598 * Digital Hunter * (+65)
00:16:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Galaxtone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55602&oldid=55244 * Digital Hunter * (+139) /* Chat */
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02:50:42 <doesthiswork> So I came up with something that should find languages that reduce bugs sort of like how code golf finds languages that are more expressive.
02:55:13 <zzo38> I don't know? I think the program can have bugs in most programming languages though, anyways
02:55:38 <doesthiswork> Person A sets a task and all the challengers provide both a program that does it and the smallest edit to that program that causes it to do it incorrectly (but without compile or runtime errors) The challenger's score is the size of the edit divided by the size of the program
02:58:02 <zzo38> O, OK, you can try that?
03:03:49 <shachaf> `le/rn exponentially//"exponentially" is a word that means "a lot".
03:03:51 <HackEso> Learned 'exponentially': "exponentially" is a word that means "a lot".
03:05:30 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?acute: not found
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03:24:44 <imode> I guess I should give up trying to make my tree-rewriting system variable-less.
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03:40:34 <rdococ> imode: I like how variable joined after you said that.
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04:22:57 <rdococ> doesthiswork: The variable just changed, it cannot be constant
04:28:15 <doesthiswork> There is no variable only constant. And because as you say constants never change, variable must have always been constant,.
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05:35:31 <\oren\> I don't have any ginger tea so Ijust used ginger powder in the espresso machine. it worked surprisingly well
05:44:19 <\oren\> therefore, espresso machine can potentially be used to decoct all kinds of herbal liquids
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07:23:20 <Lymia> doesthiswork, in most languages, commenting out some print command does so perfectly.
07:23:35 <Lymia> Its output will be incorrect and there will be no crash.
07:24:45 <Lymia> The features to avoid this aren't... really good features in practice.
07:25:11 <Lymia> The golfiest ways to make a program stop working are usually not what actually cause bugs (in my experience).
07:25:34 <Lymia> And the things that prevent them (dead code hard errors, unused variable hard errors, etc) are bad ideas in practice
07:27:46 <Lymia> Haskell is one of the safest languages out there right now.
07:28:56 <Lymia> And still, with basically any program, you can make it stop working with s/main =/main = const(return())$/
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07:50:50 <Vorpal> <\oren\> therefore, espresso machine can potentially be used to decoct all kinds of herbal liquids <-- interesting, though I assume there might still be coffee taste left in the machine?
07:51:43 <Lymia> just get a press brewer or something
07:52:13 <Vorpal> also you could probably just crush the ginger and use a reusable infuser if you have one
07:55:59 <Vorpal> I use a large reusable cloth tea bag when making tea
08:12:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Been a while since we last swapped these -- https://zem.fi/tmp/florence.jpg
08:14:25 <Vorpal> fizzie: I haven't done any in a while though :/
08:14:56 <fizzie> I've mostly been lazy and used the phone's tool for them, though that one was done in the traditional Hugin way.
08:15:35 <Vorpal> hm have hugin improved any in recent years? haven't looked at it for a while
08:16:06 <fizzie> I think some of the UI elements had moved places, but I don't think it's much different.
08:17:29 <fizzie> I had somehow managed to make the default lens type something non-rectilinear, had real trouble with stitching before I realized that. I think it probably remembers that setting, and maybe I had played around with it.
08:21:27 <fizzie> Not sure if I mentioned, but I also bought a fisheye lens.
08:23:30 <Vorpal> oh, some neighbor is using a hammer drill I think
08:23:42 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/duomo1.jpg https://zem.fi/tmp/duomo2.jpg fun, but not exactly all that practical
08:26:53 <Vorpal> expected a circular viewport
08:28:37 <fizzie> It's one of those where for APS-C it fills the frame. Something like 167° diagonal FOV.
08:30:12 <fizzie> I think if you stick it on a full-frame camera it's almost a circle, but not quite.
08:33:20 <fizzie> https://drkrishi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/panorama-using-8mm-fisheye-01.jpg -- the (faintly visible) circle is what the image would be on a full-frame, but there's a hood that's been cut so that it doesn't obstruct the APS-C rectangle.
08:33:46 <fizzie> (In my version it's removable, in the original model it wasn't.)
08:36:08 <Vorpal> that is some intense colour fringes
08:36:35 <Vorpal> now when I look closely I see some in your photo too, but not as bad
08:37:17 <Vorpal> did you correct for it in post processing?
08:37:59 <fizzie> No. I wonder if that has something to do with how well the light/dark edge is is focus. The lens hood in that picture would be very out-of-focus.
08:39:19 <fizzie> (Or maybe it's just better near the middle of the frame.)
08:40:25 <Vorpal> colour fringing is generally worse towards they edges yes iirc
08:42:52 <fizzie> It's manual aperture and manual focus, though really if everything's more than about 1-2 metres away, you just set the focus to the 'infinity' marker and don't worry about it.
08:46:45 <ais523> (re the Lymia/doesthiswork conversation) in programming competitions you sometimes have to design programs to be resistant to being changed
08:46:55 <ais523> this lead to the development of languages with checksums
08:47:16 <ais523> although something like https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_Pear_Tree can only be resistant to 3-4 bytes being changed
08:47:22 <ais523> you could make a language that could handle more
08:49:54 <Vorpal> I guess most programming languages where small changes are still valid different programs (as opposed to syntax errors) are chaotic, since usually the result is completely different
08:51:07 <Vorpal> though there is an argument against that too since often a small change can still lead to no observed behaviour change (e.g. code is never actually executed, or it is still an infinite loop, just with a slightly different condition)
08:51:11 <ais523> right, some are intentionally designed like that, e.g. Incident
08:51:30 <ais523> where you can effectively remotely delete any part of the program by making an edit anywhere
08:52:56 <ais523> the intent was to make it able to polyglot with /anything/
08:52:59 <ais523> as long as you had an editable portion
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08:55:45 <Vorpal> but that are some really hard to use operations
08:57:17 <ais523> it's actually worse than it looks at first
08:58:13 <ais523> actually, control flow is pretty easy in Incident, the main problem is data storage and transfer
09:00:56 <ais523> the language is basically entirely made of call stacks
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09:09:18 <Lymia> Vorpal, how would you design a programming language that's not chaotic in such a manner?
09:09:30 <Lymia> I suspect the answer is probably: see neural networks
09:11:44 <Lymia> There's simple tricks you could use to make any valid program very distant (in a byte-by-byte sense) from any valid program (any cryptographic AONT on a conventional language works)
09:11:55 <Lymia> But there's still an underlying logic where a small change can create a huge difference.
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09:22:09 <Lymia> Even Malbroge is that way
09:22:22 <Lymia> Though, it doesn't reject anything I guess
09:23:36 <ais523> Malbolge rejects almost everything
09:23:53 <ais523> IIRC there are only 8 valid options for each character position in the program, anything else is a syntax error
09:23:58 <ais523> (what those options are depends on the location)
09:24:19 <ais523> this makes Malbolge programs quite easy to recognise, they tend to have long sequences that run backwards through ASCII as a result of the syntactic restrictions
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14:39:41 <rdococ> Is there a control flow structure more flexible than delimited continuations (which seem to be rare in an esolang)?
14:41:21 <ais523> aren't non-deliminted continuations more flexible than delimited continuations?
14:42:52 <ais523> something I discovered a whlie back in INTERCAL is that you can emulate continuations using threads that can be paused
14:42:57 <ais523> although they're fairly heavy
14:43:24 <ais523> given that continuations have no obvious way to do pre-emptive (as opposed to cooperative) parallelism, threads may be more flexible
14:46:55 <rdococ> Delimited continuations can easily emulate undelimited continuations with a single 'reset' that wraps around the whole program and some kind of 'halt program' instruction at the end
14:47:12 <rdococ> ('at the end' being still within the 'reset')
14:48:08 <zzo38> Well, there is Forth; some implementations may be more flexible
14:48:49 <rdococ> I wonder if pausable threads can emulate delimited continuations
14:51:29 <rdococ> I guess you could just expose the call stack
14:53:02 <ais523> well, the call stack is pretty exposed in INTERCAL
14:54:26 <rdococ> Or maybe a call spaghetti stack
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15:16:56 <rdococ> If you allow the manipulation of stack frames (invoking it with values, modifying the frame it returns to, and cloning it) you can emulate delimited continuations fairly easily, I think
15:17:37 <rdococ> in addition to passing them around as first-class citizens (Communism: The Esolang)
15:31:37 <Lymia> Scala lets you serialize delimited continuations
15:31:45 <Lymia> So you can send control flow through the network :D
15:34:20 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you can implement delimited continuations using undelimited continuations in a simple way
15:34:57 <rdococ> I tried, but I don't think it's possible
15:34:59 <ais523> something like "calling a delimited continuation takes you back to the old stack frame, but records where you called it from, and then reset can take you back to where you called it"
15:36:23 <Lymia> <rdococ> Is there a control flow structure more flexible than delimited continuations (which seem to be rare in an esolang)?
15:36:32 <Lymia> <s>computed goto</s>
15:36:57 <rdococ> nah, not harmful enough
15:37:02 <ais523> oh, computed next from is pretty powerful
15:37:18 <ais523> it's like come from except it allows you to go back again
15:37:53 <ais523> it lets you do things like implementing a single-stepping debugger within the language itself, by nexting from the IP as long as it isn't in the debugger itself
15:39:10 <ais523> it's not used in any mainstream language I'm aware of, though, because it's ridiculously inefficient
15:39:12 <rdococ> I've noticed that some implementations of reset/shift only allow 'shift' to interact with the 'reset' nearest to the top of the stac
15:39:48 <ais523> hmm, Perl has the option to replace the main loop of the bytecode interpreter
15:40:04 <ais523> that strikes me as pretty insanely flexible as operations go, and it doesn't seem to fall into any category other than "control flow"
15:40:44 <rdococ> do any esolangs have computed next from?
15:41:11 <ais523> probably not any others, though :-D
15:41:12 <zzo38> Maybe CLC-INTERCAL does
15:41:23 <ais523> both CLC-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL do
15:42:04 <ais523> C-INTERCAL allows you to write the computed next from in a C or Befunge-98 program, but it'll only capture lines with INTERCAL line numbers
15:42:26 <ais523> (which means that you need to explicitly give an INTERCAL line number to part of the C or Befunge-98 program or you can't do anything with it)
15:43:29 <rdococ> hm, if I understand this, come from is to goto as next from is to call
15:46:49 <rdococ> could we extend the analogy to continuations?
15:47:30 <ais523> well, continuations are a generalisation of exceptions
15:47:36 <ais523> and resumable exceptions are something that exists
15:47:40 <ais523> so this seems maybe doable?
15:47:57 <zzo38> What programming language has powerful enough macros to implement next from and continuations and all of those things?
15:47:58 <ais523> presumably the continuation gets two arguments, the "payload" you passed it, but also a continuation to go right back where you were before
15:48:40 <zzo38> What do you mean by "resumable exceptions"; is that like the RESUME command in BASIC?
15:49:22 <ais523> it's a bit like a cross between RESUME from BASIC and catch from Java
15:49:42 <rdococ> zzo38: for something like come from or next from to work, every line you'd have to check each come/next from to see if the instruction pointer matches
15:50:05 <ais523> the idea is that when an exception occurs, the program looks for an exception handler in the normal way (stack-unwinding-like) but doesn't actually unwind the stack, instead the exception handler runs on top of the stack
15:50:40 <ais523> and then can choose to unwind back to its own location in the code (in the usual way), but can also choose to correct the issue and then return back to the code that errored
15:51:11 <zzo38> rdococ: For computed come from, yes I would think (if not computed then it is simpler to do), but I ask if it can be implemented by use of macros.
15:54:47 <rdococ> presumably, to implement come froms or next froms within the language itself you'd have to define something that runs before/after every line
15:57:03 <rdococ> continuations could be implemented in the form of lexical goto (goto out of anonymous function scope), I wonder if you could have a similar "lexical come from"
16:06:18 <rdococ> If threads can be cloned, paused and unpaused, they would be more flexible than *undelimited* continuations at least
16:06:58 <ais523> now I'm trying to work out what operation a delimited thread would support
16:07:05 <ais523> presumably you could pause it, change the bottom of the call stack, and unpause it
16:07:41 <ais523> unless you'd already returned past that point, so perhaps they have a marker "don't go past this point"
16:09:05 <rdococ> you could try the opposite route, and work out how concurrent continuations could work
16:09:16 <rdococ> concurrent delimited ones, that is
16:11:51 <rdococ> thread X could 'call' thread Y so that if Y returns with a value as opposed to just unpausing another thread and pausing itself, control would return to X?
16:14:09 <ais523> that seems similar to coroutines
16:23:45 <rdococ> How about this: Thread X could "invoke" Threads Y and Z by unpausing both of them, passing itself along with arguments to them, and pausing itself. Then when either Thread Y or Z "returns", one of them could unpause X and pause itself?
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16:25:00 <rdococ> If Y "returns" first, though, what happens when Z "returns"?
16:25:29 <rdococ> Or would X wait for both Y and Z to return by pausing itself twice?
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17:12:39 <rdococ> ais523: Since delimited continuations are essentially functions in that you can pass values to them, and they can return values, perhaps you could simply implement a way to call them concurrently?
17:15:28 <lambdabot> error: Data constructor not in scope: Yay
17:20:57 <rdococ> Another way to think about it is that functions are like thread generators, and to call a function would be similar to creating and resuming a new thread passing the caller's continuation to it.
17:21:28 <rdococ> Well, you wouldn't need to pass a continuation, just pass the caller itself if it's a thread.
17:28:38 <esowiki> [[User:Kaa-kun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55603&oldid=55000 * Kaa-kun * (-18) Blnk'd out page
17:32:27 <rdococ> And if you can clone a thread, functions can then be thread prototypes, which you clone to create threads from.
17:33:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55604&oldid=49676 * Kaa-kun * (+290) /* How do you make userboxen? */ new section
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17:35:36 <rdococ> Hello imode. ais523 and I were discussing control flow structures that could be more powerful than delimited continuations.
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17:41:18 <int-e> . o O ( computed COME FROM )
17:43:45 <rdococ> int-e: Computed COME FROM is maybe more or less powerful than undelimited continuations, but I don't think it's as powerful as delimited ones.
17:45:49 <rdococ> Although, computed COME FROM enables pre-emptive multitasking (something which even delimited continuations seems to lack), and if two COME FROM statements coming from the same line is supported then that would result in concurrency.
17:47:12 <rdococ> Even non-computed COME FROM supports pre-emptive multitasking (to an extent?) and concurrent threads.
17:48:56 <int-e> there is a multi-threaded intercal, where this is indeed how threads are spawned
17:49:31 <esowiki> [[User:Kaa-kun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55605&oldid=55603 * Kaa-kun * (+834) Bio
17:51:09 <rdococ> How about multi-threaded "next from"?
17:57:24 <ais523> at least in C-INTERCAL
18:00:00 <rdococ> Having shift, reset and a fork instruction would probably be sufficient for concurrent delimited continuations...
18:03:11 <rdococ> Or perhaps if 'reset' could act as a forking instruction as well, which would be somewhat analogous to supporting multiple goto labels with the same name.
18:07:54 <imode> what, y'all aren't content with FSM-based control? :P
18:10:13 <rdococ> Yeah, it's kind of moot when even just vanilla structured programming languages can be turing complete.
18:10:52 <imode> expressiveness does matter.
18:14:19 <rdococ> Quantum Malbolge should hash the program securely before executing it, so programming in it would require calculating reverse hashes (with current, classic cryptography, it's easy for quantum computers but not classical ones).
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18:28:24 <zzo38> JavaScript has no goto command. All of the stuff that can be done with it you can avoid goto, and in many cases in JavaScript what it does have does help better anyways than in C, but in some cases nevertheless would be more nicer program to have goto sometimes.
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18:32:21 <zzo38> (BLISS also does not have a goto command.)
18:39:46 <rdococ> I feel like you could delimit threads in the same way that you can delimit continuations.
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18:45:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: hi. in that brainfuck variant you invented, where the - command multiplies the cell by -2 instead of subtracting 1 from it, what sort of numbers is it support to use? modulo 256? bignums? something else?
18:46:42 <ais523> it doesn't matter unless you have a limited length tape though
18:46:46 <ais523> because brainfuck minus - is TC
18:46:48 <wob_jonas> in that case I wonder if that variant is even turing-complete
18:46:59 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_minus_-
18:46:59 <wob_jonas> brainfuck on bignums without - is TC?
18:47:15 <ais523> although bignums makes it harder
18:47:30 <wob_jonas> yes, without bignums it's easy, that's why I'm asking
18:47:35 <pikhq> With integers mod 256 it's pretty trivial, really.
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18:47:49 <pikhq> (or mod any number)
18:48:06 <pikhq> Since you just need to do + a number of times congruent to -1.
18:50:01 <rdococ> brainfuck without - is demonstrably turing complete whether the integers are modular or not as seen in the article
18:51:07 <pikhq> Yeah, that article suffices to prove it, but it's pretty non-trivial.
18:57:11 <rdococ> What would occur if you replaced > and + with }, which is equivalent to >+?
18:58:47 <wob_jonas> rdococ: I think that variant is already invented under some name and on the wiki
18:59:00 <ais523> without - too? then it's at most a PDA, and probably less powerful than that
18:59:14 <wob_jonas> you can just write > as }- and + as <}
18:59:41 <rdococ> wob_jonas: We're talking about a derivative where >, +, - don't exist while } does.
19:00:01 <rdococ> + is fairly trivial, as it's just <}. > on the other hand is most likely impossible.
19:00:47 <ais523> the problem is that you can never read any data to the right of the pointer
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19:02:02 <pikhq> Would it be so limited? If it's mod-256, then > is <} 256 times.
19:02:52 <pikhq> Yeah, that might be a PDA.
19:03:23 <ais523> it obviously can't be stronger than a PDA, but I suspect it's weaker
19:04:18 <pikhq> Not quite an FSA because it definitely has infinite states, but
19:04:29 <ais523> I think it's a single-counter machine
19:04:37 <ais523> specifically, the number of 1s to the left of the pointer
19:04:55 <rdococ> I don't even think it's that
19:05:05 <pikhq> Quite possibly, yeah.
19:05:11 <ais523> nah, it is, you can increment with } and decrement with <
19:05:28 <pikhq> Interesting that making it mod-256 makes it more powerful.
19:06:06 <rdococ> only the first cell will ever be 0 when the cell pointer is on it
19:06:28 <pikhq> Well, unless it's unbounded to the left.
19:06:33 <rdococ> and if you can't go to the left of the first cell you can't make it anything other than 0. the tape is effectively fixed.
19:06:41 <wob_jonas> you can also consider making it 0 to 255 inclusive, or -128 to 127 inclusive
19:06:47 <wob_jonas> where overflows lead to undefined behavior
19:07:09 <rdococ> then its computational class would depend on its undefined behavior
19:07:43 <ais523> "i=i++; // makes the language Turing-complete"
19:08:12 <rdococ> or overflow causes the cell pointer to move to the right
19:09:28 <wob_jonas> no no. overflow just causes the machine gives control to a malicious adversary with unlimited computing power, who'll want to make your program behave incorrectly
19:09:36 <wob_jonas> that's what undefined behavior means
19:10:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: technically speaking, that could be TC too
19:10:15 <ais523> it's like an oracle machine except the oracle is evil
19:11:02 <wob_jonas> it's not turing complete, because you can't easily translate any program from some other TC language to a program that always does the samd
19:11:18 <ais523> there's no "easily" requirement
19:11:36 <ais523> all you have to do is be very good at making it look like a specific course of action would be the most destructive to what you were trying to achieve
19:11:37 <wob_jonas> it has to be somewhat easily, otherwise you'd put all the computation in the translation
19:11:46 <ais523> hmm, I feel a new esolang coming on
19:12:22 <ais523> that said, the adversary has to be somewhat gullible or else they could just always return 0, or implement https://esolangs.org/wiki/Baby_Language, or something
19:13:23 <wob_jonas> ah, an monkey with typewriter language
19:15:50 <ais523> I'm interested in its computational class, actually
19:16:09 <ais523> this is more a question of how computational class is defined than anything else, though
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19:59:14 <imode> I'm still in the midst of a crisis. any other automata I look at that's been proposed either need to abstract upwards to a TM or are extensional equivalents to a TM.
20:02:41 <imode> ais523: so I've been looking into different kinds of automata. queue automata, 2-stack PDAs, tag systems, etc.
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20:04:34 <wob_jonas> imode: isn't that because the queue stuff is even more inefficient than a one-tape turing machine, as in, sometimes you have to spend squared the amount of time?
20:05:01 <wob_jonas> imode: although you should of course look at counter machines and all their strange variations, those are even more inefficient
20:05:14 <imode> and from what I can see, using queue automata as an example, you're always going to just overlay a tape over whatever datastructure you've tacked on in order to do any algorithmic work.
20:05:35 <imode> wob_jonas: I figured, but you'd at least find some algorithms where you don't have to loop through the queue all the damn time, right?
20:05:53 <imode> like why else would you bother with any automata other than TMs then if you're just going to abstract upwards to a TM's tape?
20:06:25 <imode> I'd like to see something as trivial as binary addition on a queue automata.
20:07:13 <imode> I thought tag systems would be different but, sure enough, they rely on the same methods..
20:09:17 <ais523> imode: normally I end up going to counter machines (which can be programmed in directly) rather than tape machines
20:09:42 <ais523> e.g https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model maps much more naturally onto a counter machine
20:09:54 <ais523> and trying to simulate a TM into it you'd go via counteres
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20:12:34 <imode1> ais523: right, but throwing away just proofs of turing completeness, what the hell is the purpose of these automata other than just proving they're turing complete?
20:12:58 <ais523> proving that other things are Turing complete
20:13:51 <imode1> okay, that's fine, but you'd think that there are some classes of "native algorithms" that don't just resort to a simulation of a damn tape. :\
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20:14:36 <wob_jonas> It's sort of a funny hierarcy if you take a one-queue machine, a one-tape machine, a 2-tape machine, a 3-tape machine, a 4-tape machine, etc, and a pointer machine. there's only like a squaring slowdown (O(t**(2+epsilon)) steps for the slower when t steps on the bigger) between the top and the bottom one, but each one in the hierarcy can only simul
20:14:36 <wob_jonas> ate the next one with that square slowdown
20:14:50 <ais523> imode1: a while back I was working on an optimised interpreter for counter machines
20:15:14 <ais523> they are easier to optimise than Turing machines are, and counter machine programs ran faster than the equivalent Turing machine programs would have done post-optimisation
20:15:41 <imode1> right, but I don't... care much about optimizations. I'm saying that there just doesn't exist a non-tape-oriented set of algorithms for shit like queue automata.
20:16:24 <ais523> do you consider Thue to be tape-based?
20:16:37 <ais523> that's pretty easy to implement on a general queue automaton
20:17:13 <imode1> it is, and I've done it (queues are nice because they're effectively cyclical strings).
20:17:39 <ais523> whereas with the tape you have to keep going back and forth
20:18:15 <imode1> right. queues seem good for models of computation that require some rewriting rules.
20:18:45 <imode1> but I've not really gone into translating things like "traditional algorithms" into thue-like rewrite systems.
20:19:12 <ais523> the queue model also feels essentially concurrent
20:19:23 <ais523> as you can do things on multiple places in the queue as easily as you can in just one place
20:19:31 <ais523> whereas with a tape+tape head model, it's easier to stay in one place
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20:19:46 <wob_jonas> so there are problems you can solve more efficiently on a 101-tape turing machine than on a 100-tape one, but they get rare above 3 tapes
20:20:18 <ais523> "101-way diff", for example
20:20:20 <imode1> something that I've been wanting to do is extend a queue automata with I/O. I feel that's easier than a traditional TM.
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20:21:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's like a 3-way diff but bigger
20:21:42 <imode1> wob_jonas: interactive, yeah.
20:21:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but what's 3-way diff in this sense?
20:22:04 <ais523> this is just a guess, it seems like a reasonable one though
20:22:58 <imode1> because with stuff like rewrite rules simulated on top of a queue automata, you can just do something easy like "request_for_input1 -> <inputted stuff from the keyboard".
20:23:43 <wob_jonas> and you could also consider multi-stack machines, where every 2n-stack machine can simulate an n-tape machine efficiently, and every n-tape machine can simluate an n-stack machine efficiently
20:23:59 <wob_jonas> so it's sort of a different hierarchy probably
20:24:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: the obvious problem for that is simulating a 101-tape turing machine program, but that's sort of artificial
20:25:14 <imode1> ais523: the problem with thue is also the intuition behind it. I can only speak from my ignorance but I don't see how you could create an algorithm that should be "intuitive" on a TM that's intuitive in a semi-thue system.
20:25:38 <imode1> like it's fairly mechanical when you're working in a TM. you work on the basis of seeks and searches, and you can compose larger machines from smaller ones. can you do that in Thue easily?
20:28:31 <ais523> Thue is best thought of as a combination of a) data pointers (somewhat TM-like), and b) pieces of data moving through other pieces of data (not at all TM-like)
20:28:45 <ais523> composition is done at the level of unique symbols
20:29:00 <ais523> i.e. you have some symbol that isn't used for data, and put that in all the rewrite rules that have a particular purpose
20:29:14 <ais523> then they can't clash with each other, and that symbol in the string says where "that rule" is currently working
20:29:19 <ais523> but you can have multiple heads, etc.
20:29:30 <imode1> my interest is piqued.
20:30:18 <wob_jonas> oh, I think I see what you mean by 101-way diff, although that would be really hard to prove the complexity, but you can probably generate some slightly more tricky problem like that that's more believable to be provable
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20:30:42 <imode1> I like the idea of multiple heads.
20:31:09 <imode1> but my question is, you're essentially just simulating a traditional TM at that point right? states and all?
20:36:59 <imode1> hm.. you could encode the state of the TM and the tape head as just a string of two (or more!) characters. then you could just plonk surrounding characters around that.
20:42:07 <imode1> shoot, I gotta run. if you're alright with it, I'll be back in an hour ais523. I'd like to pick your brain if you're around! :)
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21:09:03 <rdococ> Hm, I bet there's already an esolang where the code is the data...
21:09:20 <rdococ> I did have an idea for planar brainfuck...
21:13:25 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55606&oldid=55601 * Digital Hunter * (-218)
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21:49:32 <zzo38> I implemented a lot more stuff in Free Hero Mesh now, including the class loading, and functions to read the levels/solutions from those files or the user cache as applicable, and the SQL execute mode, etc. If you like to, you can help too such as to draw the logo, to write the picture editor program (it would be an external program, probably), and/or to write complaints about it.
21:52:22 <zzo38> (And I am glad they added upsert now in SQLite, since Free Hero Mesh internally uses it in one function.)
21:53:34 <zzo38> Also I got a message with valgrind that one of the loss records says zero bytes are definitely lost (and then specifies what function); it is supposed to do that, and if so, why?
21:54:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55607&oldid=55604 * Oerjan * (+256) /* How do you make userboxen? */ Mostly you don't
21:54:15 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: userboxen
21:54:56 <oerjan> . o O ( someone will now link a userbox on the wiki i don't know about )
21:55:33 <zzo38> On what wiki? Does esolang wiki have a user box?
21:55:54 <oerjan> no, but Kaa-Kun asked about them.
21:56:36 <oerjan> and there are enough pages on the wiki i haven't looked at or don't remember, that someone _may_ have made one.
21:56:58 <zzo38> Still it should be possible to do without needing to add any additional extensions.
21:57:15 <oerjan> . o O ( also upsert totally looks like someone made a typo )
21:58:09 <rdococ> Userboxen should be the official plural.
21:58:48 <zzo38> Maybe, but it does not seem to be a typo. It means a INSERT command that also has a ON CONFLICT ... DO UPDATE afterward to update instead of insert in case there already is such a record in the table. Apparently it was from PostgreSQL at first, but now SQLite has it too.
22:00:30 * oerjan didn't notice the plural until you mentioned it
22:04:11 <oerjan> of course i'm old enough to know about it. but these days we need to be gender neutral, so clearly the plural should be userbcattle hth
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22:10:10 <oerjan> <rdococ> Having shift, reset and a fork instruction would probably be sufficient for concurrent delimited continuations... <-- does intercal have SPOON or KNIFE?
22:10:25 <zzo38> That is problem of English (and many other) language, not having suitable gender neutral pronoun and someother gender neutrals sometimes
22:10:32 <zzo38> oerjan: Not any version I know.
22:10:37 <int-e> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM KNIVING SPOONS
22:10:37 <zzo38> Make it up if you like to do so.
22:10:49 <ais523> oerjan: those sound like Snowflake instructions
22:11:06 <ais523> …it's probably a good thing this language is implemented or else they might not exist any more
22:11:27 <ais523> hmm, it seems that Snowflake has SPOON and FORK but not KNIFE
22:11:37 <ais523> Brachylog has a knife instruction, but it doesn't do flow control
22:12:24 <ais523> in Snowflake, fork … spoon is quite close to a parallel map
22:12:39 <ais523> but you can run them unpaired if you want to
22:16:06 <ais523> (the point of having a map instruction is that Snowflake needs to do complicated calculations in a reversible way, so it's "main" flow control commands must be ones that are inherently terminating)
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22:19:04 <oerjan> <rdococ> Quantum Malbolge should hash the program securely before executing it, so programming in it would require calculating reverse hashes (with current, classic cryptography, it's easy for quantum computers but not classical ones). <-- i don't think that's easy for quantum computers.
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22:20:08 <oerjan> you could get a square root speedup with grover's algorithm, but nothing enormous.
22:21:59 <oerjan> as scott aaronson mentions in his latest blog post, cryptography _other_ than public-key isn't really cracked easily with QC.
22:22:31 <ais523> imode-desktop: a good example of something that Thue-alikes are good at is bracket matching
22:23:37 <ais523> if you just want to check for matchedness and not preserve the data, you can replace () with the null string, which is something that's much more complex in a Turing machine
22:23:45 <ais523> but suppose you want to preserve the pattern too
22:24:19 <ais523> you can do something like replace ) with x], ]x with x], )x with x), [x with x[, and (x with [
22:24:44 <ais523> the idea is that each ) spawns an x, and the x's flow to the left until they reach an open parenthesis, at which point they're consumed
22:25:22 <ais523> if any escape to the left, there are unmatched ), and if there are unmatched (, one of them will be left unchanged without becoming [
22:25:53 <ais523> the x's here act like miniature data pointers which are just looking for a bracket to match
22:28:39 <ais523> the #1 most annoying thing about writing Thue is that if you want characters in group 1 to be able to move past characters in group 2, you have to write all the cases out individually
22:28:47 <ais523> apart from that it's a really beautiful language
22:29:25 <ais523> yes, or just generate a variant that has wildcards
22:29:44 <imode-desktop> I suppose I should just look into naive string rewriting, ala Thue. do you have any resources/literature you could point me to?
22:31:23 <ais523> not really, I've mostly just been figuring things out myself as I go
22:31:35 <imode-desktop> makes sense. it struck me as a relatively unexplored area.
22:32:57 <imode-desktop> I've just been wondering about scaling upwards. I wonder what a simulation of a random access machine would look like in Thue. that's one step to getting somewhere close to "usable".
22:34:59 <ais523> you'd have to limit the character set, thue suffers from not escaping its input
22:35:48 <ais523> that said, thue would be quite bad at self-interpreting because it's not normally very good with handling two different things at the same time (as you need to keep moving them through each other to get them to the right relative positions)
22:36:03 <ais523> and when interpreting thue, you have three things to handle at once (working string, search string, replacement string)
22:37:20 <imode-desktop> I assume you'd have to have the equivalent of a tape division.
22:38:42 <imode-desktop> construct the equivalent of a multi-tape turing machine and map each tape to each component, scanning through the input one cell at a time.. but then you're back to abstracting towards a TM.
22:38:44 <oerjan> <ais523> the queue model also feels essentially concurrent <-- did you see my update to the underload construction in fueue, that's relevant
22:39:36 <ais523> I think I might have /seen/ it but I can't remember what it was
22:40:06 <ais523> imode-desktop: well you can make use of the nondeterminism, if it is genuine nondeterminism
22:40:11 <ais523> but most thue interps don't implement that
22:41:41 <ais523> ah yes, I remember now
22:41:47 <ais523> (now that I've looked at it)
22:42:50 <esowiki> [[SimPPLe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55608&oldid=53107 * Kaa-kun * (-13) Reedireect
22:43:50 <imode-desktop> ais523: I guess there's potential. what I'm looking to do is stupid but I'm exploring translating traditional game models (like roguelikes, text adventures, anything that involves some abstract interaction between entities that may contain arbitrary codes) to different models of computation, and I've been on a descent to find the most "convenient" one to use.
22:44:40 <ais523> imode-desktop: you might want to talk to Lymia (who was trying something quite similar) about this
22:45:01 <ais523> but that's a good idea, I'm also interested in the results of this
22:45:43 <imode-desktop> the possibility of interactive I/O and "clean extendability" of whatever model I choose would also mean I get to work with the multiplayer aspect.
22:46:13 <imode-desktop> much like how many people have extended brainfuck with I/O and network capabilities.
22:46:38 <ais523> I've been thinking about this from the other direction (i.e. creating a new paradigm for games programming)
22:46:52 <ais523> I combined something like three old languages I was working on and am really happy with the direction it's going in
22:46:59 <rdococ> Hm. idea: call spaghetti queue
22:47:04 <ais523> but it's all ideas so far, and possibly will be forever as this is daunting to spec, let alone implement
22:47:35 <imode-desktop> I feel that. the hardest part for me is trying to translate different object behaviors to moves of a TM tape head.
22:48:42 <imode-desktop> it's kind of degraded into a "multi-user programming environment" based on really small automata.
22:49:45 <imode-desktop> because when I started taking into account the behaviors that MUDs offer, for example, it turns out that you just need the ability to execute arbitrary programs that respond to the world state and external player/object events.
22:50:16 <ais523> the basic idea is a) objects can be created and persist even when not referenced, they have to be explicitly deleted; b) object fields cannot be directly modified but you can attach modifiers to them, some fields are calculated, and some fields are calculated as integrals of other fields so you can store data in the constant of integration; c) collisions between objects (with a simple or maybe even complex collision-detection algo) are a first-class
22:50:17 <ais523> part of the language, and are the only way to do "discrete" operations like creating and deleting objects; d) collisions may be based on things other than positions but they occupy a sort of "conceptual space" which has a speed of light (thus "distances" are actually measured in time, with c=1)
22:51:24 <imode-desktop> that last bit is interesting to me in particular, have you ever seen this?: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/conceptual-spaces
22:52:13 <ais523> from the abstract it's unclear if the book is describing the same thing as me or not
22:52:16 <imode-desktop> the tl;dr is "guy tries to map properties of objects to quality dimensions, and starts sketching out figures that represent concepts and individuals."
22:52:16 <ais523> I guess they might be different but similar
22:53:20 <imode-desktop> probably different, but you're the only other person I've seen using the term "conceptual space", so I had to at least ask. ;)
22:53:53 <oerjan> <rdococ> Hm. idea: call spaghetti queue <-- . o O ( call FSM )
22:54:03 <ais523> it's more similar than I thought it would be
22:54:22 <ais523> my method is intended as a model of computer thought, though, not a model of human thought, so it's much simpler
22:56:06 <rdococ> oerjan: Perhaps stack frames with multiple parents could return to all of them concurrently, or maybe the stack frame would be able to choose which parent to return to.
22:58:19 <rdococ> A "call FSM" would be, most likely, a call directed graph, which would allow for cycles of stack frames that return to eachother. I'm unsure of the uses for it, though.
22:58:43 <oerjan> `le/rn call cthulhu//Call Cthulhu is the most destructive calling convention.
22:58:45 <HackEso> Learned 'call cthulhu': Call Cthulhu is the most destructive calling convention.
22:59:34 <ais523> "call finite state machine" is basically how Verity works
22:59:41 <ais523> it doesn't support (non-tail) recursion for obvious reasons
22:59:51 <rdococ> "DEALLOCATE THE KRAKEN!"
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23:00:29 <imode-desktop> ais523: what I'm noticing is the "ultimate game" turns out to be something akin to Ready Player One's oasis, or the Metaverse. not something that has any specific game behavior, but a simple multi-user environment (can be single user as well) that starts off as a simple shell, but can evolve to contain different kinds of interactive game objects.
23:01:05 <ais523> so basically a codenomic
23:01:14 <imode-desktop> if you wanted to build a forest with some birds in it that hunt and peck for seeds on the ground, you could plop some graph nodes down, write some behavior for the bird, write some behavior for seed growth, and bam.
23:03:10 <ais523> I think that things like the old MUDs/MOOs probably got closest to that
23:03:14 <ais523> modern games tend to be a lot more controlled
23:03:50 <imode-desktop> I don't know why they never took off. there are ways to make those types of worlds graphical, more interactive.
23:07:32 <ais523> probably because it conflicts with the usual monetisation model
23:07:42 <ais523> charging for skins and emotes is not really worth much when players can create anything
23:07:52 <ais523> you'd have to do something like charging for anything that's blue, or the like
23:08:09 <zzo38> There is still the MUDs that you don't need any graphics
23:09:44 <imode-desktop> right, but I've not really seen any that are too terribly "out there". let's face it, a lot of the languages that these things are built with suck. and their toolkits are largely game-focused (at least the ones I've seen are.)
23:10:55 <ais523> I think you're right that Second Life is close to what you're looking for, at least in concept
23:11:08 <ais523> the execution, of course, could be much better
23:11:23 <imode-desktop> definitely. imho their first mistake was trying to work within 3D space.
23:12:14 <imode-desktop> starting with 3D is not the way to go in my eyes. that kind of abstraction is best left to the logic you define later, not a job for your core systems to manage. 3D mesh data should be an afterthought, and well-considered one at that...
23:12:58 <imode-desktop> the early MUDs had it right. flat objects in memory with a loose communication mechanism that tied them all together, so you could have abstract rooms or entire spaces full of interacting objects and players.
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23:13:45 <imode-desktop> the next logical step is the graph of rooms, as with many MUDs. dedicated door objects that can speak to eachother and whoever uses them, so you can coordinate teleportation at the object level, _not_ have it as an engine builtin.
23:14:24 <imode-desktop> after that, you can add positional movement on top of the room layout, and even things like SL's grid, just by tying rooms together and being smart about prefetching objects from a certain range out in your renderer.
23:15:20 <zzo38> What I know is how ifMUD works; there are many objects having locations, and fields on objects, and exits on both items and rooms
23:15:25 <imode-desktop> I think the killer there is "choose your interaction". you can either have room-based movement, or location-based movement within rooms, or positional movement as well.
23:16:39 <imode-desktop> but imagine you're just using this thing for collaberation? you can pull 4 people into a room, 2 of them create objects, and the other 2 act as QA, trying to break what's been made.
23:18:32 <imode-desktop> these kinds of environments aren't just suited towards game-like content, they're essentially multi-agent systems, where the players are the agents and the programmers!
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23:23:26 <imode-desktop> the starting point to all of that, I guess, is finding a solid base, which is why I've been concerned with automata.
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23:52:56 <rdococ> Hm, might start trying to design my own b{markup language}.
23:55:24 <rdococ> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Start-reset_markup_language is fairly inaccurate - the IRC control codes for formatting are toggles, so \b turns bold off if it's already on.
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02:03:45 <zzo38> I have made several hacks with ifMUD, such as a way for a JotaCode program to read your own current channel. This cannot be used on other users, nor can it be used if you use the "nounzone" option. If you are logged in at the time, then it also resets your idle time, displays error messages on your terminal, and cancels paste mode if you have it set. However, does work.
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05:38:12 <imode1> so, I wonder if there's a way of translating a prolog-like rewriting rule into a set of rules for Thue that doesn't involve you contorting yourself.
05:38:33 <imode1> so instead of doing just <lhs> ::= <rhs>, you can do <lhs1>, <lhs2>, <lhs3>, ..., <lhsN> ::= <rhs>
05:39:24 <imode1> meaning "if these ALL patterns match, rewrite them all to the rhs."
05:41:03 <imode1> but otherwise, skip the rule.
05:41:10 <imode1> you'd need some kind of flag system I think.
05:45:18 <imode1> I just wonder what the "primitive machines" are for languages like Thue. I know you can build up larger machines from smaller machines in other automata, but composition in Thue seems like a tough nut to crack.
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05:51:34 <wob_jonas> ok, I'm no longer sure about anything I said yesterday. maybe a three-tape turing machine can actually simulate a d-tape turing machine with just polylog factor slowdown.
05:55:21 <wob_jonas> "<imode-desktop> what I'm looking to do is stupid but I'm exploring translating traditional game models (like roguelikes, text adventures, anything that involves some abstract interaction between entities that may contain arbitrary codes) to different models of computation" => hmm, wasn't there an IOCCC entry that did that sort of thing on cellular
05:56:28 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> creating a new paradigm for games programming" => is that for automatic saving the state and replay?
06:00:06 <imode1> wob_jonas: a CA with global input would be funny to see. got a link?
06:00:28 <imode1> puts "injecting input" in a whole new light.
06:02:10 <wob_jonas> imode: I think it's http://www.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#1993_rince
06:06:43 <imode1> oh yeah. I recognize that.
06:07:07 <imode1> there have been several kinds of languages like that, but they all conform to a 2D grid.
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07:21:15 <HackEso> smlist 467: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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19:13:00 <wob_jonas> Suppose you have a language like postscript or forth that has both a call stack and a data stack. If the environment provides some sort of calls to do IO (whether a general OS interface or access to the application this is embedded in as a scripting language),
19:14:15 <wob_jonas> then it's possible to define the IO library such that IO calls require that the data stack is empty (i.e. contain only what the environment put into it when your code is started), or the call stack is empty (contains only whatever returns the environment put in it at the start, in this case the IO call needs to call back a continuation function of
19:14:15 <wob_jonas> the user code), or even that both are empty.
19:14:30 <wob_jonas> This could be easy to very inconvenient depending on the details of the language.
19:15:33 <wob_jonas> You could sort of say that TeX requires the data stack to be empty for IO stuff and even for variable assignments, but we don't really consider it a data stack.
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19:21:12 <wob_jonas> Of course requiring both the data stack and call stack to be empty could only work in a language where you can store data somewhere else in some global state, unless perhaps the IO call required that you put a fixed number of objects to the data stack, such as just one continuation function, which I think could in theory work in Underload.
19:24:45 <wob_jonas> And in a language like underload that only stores data on the two stacks, it would be natural to have some such restriction.
19:39:08 <HackEso> 698) <shachaf> Lent is a bad habit that people find very difficult to give up.
20:11:38 <imode> I wonder how you'd do tree manipulation in Thue...
20:43:35 <int-e> Well, you can have a token jump over balanced parentheses... for example: S( -> (xR, R( -> (RR, x( -> (x, RR) -> )R, xR) -> )T, where x and R are auxiliary symbols, will transition from S([balanced parentheses]) to ([balanced parentheses])T (I'm writing -> where Thue uses ::=)
20:43:55 <int-e> oh I'm missing x) -> )x
20:44:31 <imode> I figured. you can also take an alternate approach and do something like huffman encoding.
20:44:51 <imode> where your tree is a series of left/right paths delimited by brackets, like [00101010][0100101001]...
20:45:57 <int-e> and obviously Thue can simulate a Turing machine... but this is actually a bit simpler in Thue than in a Turing machine, I'd say.
20:47:56 <imode> the path-based representation would be beneficial, because then you have some context: you can specify a pattern that starts at the start of a particular path, or at the end, or at any point in between.
21:07:33 <wob_jonas> I'm always sort of annoyed by questions like "how do I represent a tree" or "how do I represent a graph", because it really depends on what kinds of operations you want to do on the tree or graph, and it's not possible to give a meaningful answer without.
21:15:09 <imode> yeah.. and you also have to consider your storage requirements.
21:17:22 <int-e> . o O ( "How do I represent a..." -- "I'm sure there's an Unicode symbol for that." )
21:18:28 <imode> lmfao. "With a suitably concise alphabet..."
21:19:04 <imode> graph rewriting in thue would be a little troubling. the two choices of graph representation are complex.
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02:22:22 <imode> I'm trying to comprehend how you'd do something as trivial as RAM simulation in Thue without hard-coded locations in the rule set, and without resorting to a traditional tape representation.
02:23:58 <imode> I can see the RAM cells as being sequences of [key;value] pairs, and values sort of propagating around them.
02:25:58 <imode> so if your input was "{231;Test}[10;...][20;...][30;...][231;...][;]", with the things in {}s classified as write instructions...
02:27:08 <imode> you'd need to find a way to propagate that 231 forward in advance, then leave a marker if the comparison worked. that could be done in parallel.
02:28:27 <imode> if the address didn't exist, you'd hit the "[;]" at the end, which signifies an empty "bubble" to put your key/value pair.
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02:29:18 <imode> if you could figure that out, or if you could figure out how to do prolog-style pattern matching, that'd be nice.
02:32:25 <imode> I actually still wonder what a Thue interpreter in... Thue would look like.
02:32:40 <imode> obviously you'd have to reduce the thue ruleset to a reduced alphabet.
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07:01:52 <HackEso> aglist 599: b_jonas shachaf
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07:46:45 <user24> I'm just gonna say that the "lark" parser library for python is pretty cool: https://github.com/lark-parser/lark
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09:29:14 <esowiki> [[Equipage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55625 * Chris Pressey * (+728) Add stub for Equipage.
09:30:06 <esowiki> [[Carriage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55626&oldid=39136 * Chris Pressey * (+30) Add "see also" reference to Equipage.
09:30:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55627&oldid=55613 * Chris Pressey * (+15) /* E */ Add Equipage.
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13:32:28 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/_mW3/text so I tried my hand at forward-chaining within thue, but it's one-shot and unwieldy.
13:32:51 <imode> (also not thue syntaxt, but general string rewriting, w/e.)
13:42:01 <imode> when a fact "fires", it sort of switches itself off and generates a unique flag that's passed down by every other fact until they hit the end and accumulate.
13:42:43 <imode> now I wonder how I can do something like simulating RAM via key/value pairs... but first I have to work out how to do non-destructive string comparisons.
14:44:21 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_systems_theory http://www.cs.bme.hu/~csima/phd1/phd1.html
14:45:51 <imode> I ask, the universe answers.
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17:02:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Izumariu * New user account
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17:57:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Reddy Alice * New user account
18:10:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55628&oldid=55611 * Izumariu * (+306) Izumariu entry added
18:10:15 <esowiki> [[PUBERTY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55629 * Izumariu * (+6465) Created page
18:10:32 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55630&oldid=55627 * Izumariu * (+14) /* P */
18:10:45 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55631&oldid=55444 * Izumariu * (+1571) Added PUBERTY
18:11:25 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55632&oldid=54907 * Izumariu * (+64) /* General languages */
18:12:03 <esowiki> [[PUBERTY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55633&oldid=55629 * Izumariu * (+1)
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18:59:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55634&oldid=55628 * Reddy Alice * (+97) /* Introductions */
18:59:54 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55635 * Reddy Alice * (+271) Created page with "Annoying Alice 2D is a 2 Dimensional esolang that is inspired by 2D programming languages like piet using the difference in ARGB values between pixels. It has this name becaus..."
19:00:32 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55636&oldid=55635 * Reddy Alice * (+21)
19:01:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Reddy Alice * uploaded "[[File:Helloworldannoying.png]]"
19:01:53 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55638&oldid=55636 * Reddy Alice * (-28)
19:09:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Reddy Alice * uploaded "[[File:HelloworldannoyingAlice.png]]"
19:10:02 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55640&oldid=55638 * Reddy Alice * (+1)
19:28:46 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55641&oldid=55640 * Reddy Alice * (+2525)
19:29:05 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55642&oldid=55641 * Reddy Alice * (+0)
19:32:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55643&oldid=55630 * Reddy Alice * (+24) /* A */
19:34:09 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55644&oldid=55642 * Reddy Alice * (+108)
19:34:24 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55645&oldid=55644 * Reddy Alice * (+2)
19:43:45 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55646&oldid=55645 * Reddy Alice * (+69)
19:50:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oxetn * New user account
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20:12:15 <esowiki> [[TheSingularity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55647&oldid=53192 * HereToAnnoy * (-94) got to do my own work
20:12:42 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55648&oldid=53832 * HereToAnnoy * (-67)
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20:29:02 <esowiki> [[Focus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55649&oldid=53898 * HereToAnnoy * (+35)
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22:19:28 <HackEso> ysaclist (77): boily shachaf
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23:46:09 <lambdabot> CYUL 122300Z 23017G29KT 30SM FEW055 SCT200 OVC240 25/10 A2984 RMK SC1CS3CI5 SC TR SLP106 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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00:39:45 <shachaf> Cale: Did I already ask you about monoidal categories with nontrivial scalars?
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03:29:15 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55650&oldid=55646 * Reddy Alice * (+614)
03:29:47 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55651&oldid=55650 * Reddy Alice * (+35)
03:49:51 <imode> is there a proof that all thue rules can be reduced to rules with only 3 symbols on either side of the separator?
03:50:17 <imode> or even, just two symbols?
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04:13:34 <imode> I think you could do with just two symbols and use a tape head approach. i.e left and right moves would be formulated as OT -> TN and TO -> NT respectively.
04:14:03 <imode> where 'O' is the old symbol under the tape head, and 'N' is the newly written symbol.
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05:31:31 <\oren\> Is it a potential military threat that our prime minister has the power to make America's president go completely pineapples at will by saying something as innocuous as "we will not be pushed around"?
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08:19:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iamcalledbob * New user account
08:22:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55652&oldid=55634 * Iamcalledbob * (+19)
08:22:40 <esowiki> [[=]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55653 * Iamcalledbob * (+418) Created page with "= commands: = if the thing being assigned is a place: assign place with value(dec)/place value. if the thing being assigned is a value: if the place value assigned r..."
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08:27:08 <wob_jonas> I destroyed my mobile phone. But I only have myself to blame for it. Now I have to survive with this bad spare phone I bought as a backup in december, plus look around for what phone I should buy, and I guess a protective foil for the display of this one.
08:28:18 <wob_jonas> Darn, what's the name of this one, I need it to look up protective foil.
08:30:12 <wob_jonas> Ok, so first I have to copy my contact list to this phone.
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08:39:45 <esowiki> [[PUBERTY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55654&oldid=55633 * Izumariu * (+6)
09:16:05 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55655 * Iamcalledbob * (+7665) Created page with "==Losescript== Losescript is a programming language that certainly makes you win in some golf contests(while if the questions change even if a bit, you will certainly lose). =..."
09:17:29 <ais523> there is a lot of copy-and-paste on that page
09:17:51 <ais523> but I think it's all from Esolang itself, thus not a copyvio
09:18:02 <ais523> that said, it's been copied from the rendered version
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09:37:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Derteckel * New user account
09:41:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55656&oldid=55652 * Derteckel * (+159) /* Introductions */
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11:46:24 <esowiki> [[`]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55657 * Iamcalledbob * (+1138) All about `
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12:31:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iamcalledbob * moved [[Language list]] to [[Category:`]]: I want people to see that there is another 1-instruction turing-taprit language.
12:31:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iamcalledbob * moved [[Talk:Language list]] to [[Category talk:`]]: I want people to see that there is another 1-instruction turing-taprit language.
12:33:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iamcalledbob * moved [[Main Page]] to [[%]]
12:33:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iamcalledbob * moved [[Talk:Main Page]] to [[Talk:%]]
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12:46:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iamcalledbob * moved [[%]] to [[Bob's blog]]
12:46:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iamcalledbob * moved [[Talk:%]] to [[Talk:Bob's blog]]
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12:56:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Bob's blog]] to [[Main Page]]
12:56:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Main Page]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Bob's blog]]"
12:57:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Main Page [move=sysop] (indefinite)]]": high-risk pages need move-protection as regular users can't undo moves
12:57:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Talk:Bob's blog]] to [[Talk:Main Page]]
12:57:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Main Page]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:Bob's blog]]"
12:58:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Talk:Main Page [move=sysop] (indefinite)]]": high-risk pages need move-protection as regular users can't undo moves
12:58:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ais523 * moved [[Category:`]] to [[Language list]] over redirect
12:58:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ais523 * moved [[Category talk:`]] to [[Talk:Language list]] over redirect
12:58:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ais523 * Ais523 deleted redirect [[Language list]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Category:`]]"
12:58:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ais523 * Ais523 deleted redirect [[Talk:Language list]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Category talk:`]]"
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12:59:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Language list [move=sysop] (indefinite)]]": high-risk pages need move-protection as regular users can't undo moves
12:59:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Talk:Language list [move=sysop] (indefinite)]]": high-risk pages need move-protection as regular users can't undo moves
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13:01:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[%]]": Vandalism
13:01:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:%]]": Vandalism
13:04:52 <ais523> any Esolang admins out there? I'm in the middle of an upgrade and someone starts doing pagemove vandalism :-(
13:05:17 <ais523> I'm trying to send iamcalledbob a warning but because I'm in the middle of a release upgrade, programs are randomly stopping working, and that apparently includes my browser
13:05:20 <ais523> so I haven't been able to send one yet
13:07:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:Iamcalledbob]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55678 * Ais523 * (+547) warning: pagemove vandalism
13:07:43 <ais523> this is worth /one/ warning, but attempting that sort of vandalism in the future deserves a block, as it requires an admin to undo
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13:12:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55679&oldid=55678 * Iamcalledbob * (+144) /* Please be careful with high-visibility pages */
13:14:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55680&oldid=55679 * Iamcalledbob * (+17) /* Please be careful with high-visibility pages */
13:15:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55681&oldid=55680 * Ais523 * (+484) how to edit pages
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13:27:14 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55682&oldid=55657 * B jonas * (+23)
13:28:01 <wob_jonas> yeah... those wiki edits were strange
13:28:09 <ais523> wob_jonas: I decided to work on that M:tG thing again
13:28:18 <ais523> I'm planning to write a whole site about it and have written two of the pages already
13:28:40 <wob_jonas> in that case I'll have to read and comment on it
13:28:41 <ais523> specifically, a) an explanation of the deck used from the tournament point of view, b) the series of actions needed to get into the right gamestate
13:28:44 <ais523> although I'm going to change b) a bit
13:28:49 <wob_jonas> you could put it on the esolang wiki though
13:28:55 <wob_jonas> I think that wiki is suitable for this sort of thing
13:28:59 <ais523> this is probably best as an independent mini-site
13:36:28 <ais523> wob_jonas: nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-maindeck.html.txt nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-setup.html.txt (these are temporary links that won't stay up that long, and these are not the final versions of the files)
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13:37:59 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55683&oldid=55676 * Iamcalledbob * (+8)
13:38:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55684&oldid=55681 * Iamcalledbob * (+24)
13:40:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55685&oldid=55683 * Iamcalledbob * (+17)
13:41:46 * ais523 vaguely wonders how an attempt to add a language to the language list could end up with accidentally renaming the Main Page
13:41:55 <ais523> I guess if it doesn't happen again, though, we're OK
13:42:09 <ais523> (and I put move-protection on the pages in question because there's basically no good reason to rename them)
13:43:13 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55686&oldid=55632 * Iamcalledbob * (+77)
13:50:22 <oerjan> . o O ( and we all know elliott would have banned em already )
13:50:48 <oerjan> well, those old enough to remember when elliott was here
13:51:00 <ais523> yes, I prefer to give at least one warning first
13:51:20 <ais523> still, not many people know that moving a page twice requires admin cleanup if the first move was in error
13:51:30 <ais523> and most of the people who do are trolls or otherwise trying to cause trouble
13:51:37 <ais523> so doing that on the Main Page, of all places, is a very suspicious thing to do
13:52:11 <ais523> I guess we'll see how the user turns out
14:02:17 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55687&oldid=51404 * Iamcalledbob * (+459) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */
14:03:49 <ais523> that is one of the bigger AEaaAP failures I've seen
14:04:25 <ais523> e.g. merging [ and ] makes BF sub-TC as you can't do any control flow inside a loop
14:05:21 <ais523> and memory-mapping which of the various instructions you have is pretty much unusable as you can't use those instructions to get back to the memory-map location
14:05:27 <ais523> that latter thing is an interesting idea for an esolang, though
14:05:35 <Taneb> AEaaAP is not an acronym I can expand
14:05:46 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55688&oldid=55687 * Iamcalledbob * (-40) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */
14:06:10 <ais523> Taneb: arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
14:08:29 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55689&oldid=55631 * Iamcalledbob * (+132)
14:08:31 <ais523> `learn AEaaAP stands for "arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point". It's one of the traditional requirements for Turing-completeness
14:08:34 <HackEso> Learned 'aeaaap': AEaaAP stands for "arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point". It's one of the traditional requirements for Turing-completeness
14:09:03 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55690&oldid=55689 * Iamcalledbob * (+23) /* ` */
14:10:14 <oerjan> ais523: it's rather confusing that Recent Changes displays the Delete above the Move when doing it like that.
14:10:23 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55691&oldid=55690 * Iamcalledbob * (+22) /* LOLCODE */
14:10:35 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55692&oldid=55691 * Iamcalledbob * (+1) /* Losescript */
14:11:06 <ais523> oerjan: yes, the newest delete was newer than the newest move
14:11:13 <ais523> it can be less confusing to turn enhanced recent changes off
14:11:22 <HackEso> aeaaap//AEaaAP stands for "arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point". It's one of the traditional requirements for Turing-completeness.
14:12:11 <oerjan> ais523: um, i don't have enhanced recent changes.
14:12:22 <ais523> oerjan: I think it's the default nowadays?
14:12:28 <ais523> let me try without to compare
14:12:36 <oerjan> i'm saying it looks like you moved the page before deleting it.
14:13:10 <ais523> it's called "Group changes by page in recent changes and watchlist" nowadays; if I turn that off, the delete correctly shows as happening before the move
14:14:55 <ais523> I was confusing the delete and the protect
14:15:22 <Taneb> It's been ages since I've made any esolangs
14:21:34 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if I can argue that the I/D machine is a BF instruction minimalization?
14:21:39 <ais523> I is just +, after all
14:21:50 <ais523> and D doesn't look too out of place in a BF derivative
14:22:00 <ais523> there's probably one that has it already :-P
14:23:02 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe all programming languages are actually BF derivatives )
14:23:26 <ais523> BF is not a BF derivative :-P
14:23:55 <Taneb> P'' probably isn't either, but that may not be a programming language
14:24:12 <oerjan> i hear Gödel investigated closed time loops so don't be too sure.
14:24:59 <ais523> historically the I/D machine was a RAM0 derivative
14:25:12 <ais523> I'm glad I was going around reading Wikipedia pages about obscure computational models :-)
14:25:34 <ais523> (and RAM0 is 3 years older than BF)
14:25:47 <ais523> P'' dates from 1964, though
14:26:02 <Taneb> I/D looks pretty neat
14:26:13 <Taneb> I'm going to have to check out the TC proof of it tonight
14:26:24 <ais523> it's like three star programmer but a little easier
14:26:27 <ais523> both to write in and to implement
14:26:47 <oerjan> the previous girl genius update is pretty ominous. i suspect the dupree shit is about to hit the fan.
14:26:55 <ais523> although three star programmer is a little more powerful, in that it gives you more flexibility with how your programs work once you've figured out how to write them
14:27:55 <esowiki> [[Classical CT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55693 * Iamcalledbob * (+552) Created page with "==Commands== This is an extension of [[CT]]. {class_name[function_name ...] [function_name ...] lots of other functions...} It defines a class with a lot of functions, which..."
14:30:29 <oerjan> today's update is also ominous, mind you.
14:30:57 <oerjan> (but not for a main character.)
14:31:56 <oerjan> ais523: do real british academics have nicknames like that twh
14:32:13 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55694&oldid=55183 * Iamcalledbob * (+32) /* Brevity */
14:32:46 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php
14:32:54 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55695&oldid=55694 * Iamcalledbob * (-32) /* Brevity */
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14:33:53 <ais523> oerjan: I rarely hear nicknames used here; thus I don't konw what they are
14:40:10 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55696&oldid=55695 * Iamcalledbob * (+185) /* Purpose */
14:42:10 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55697&oldid=55696 * Ais523 * (-3) /* Purpose */ cleanup; note that most low-level esolangs are /not/ intentionally hard to read, they just ended up that way because the concepts are so alien
14:42:43 <Taneb> The only academic I know with a nickname is Dr Chris "Crispy Bacon" Crispin-Bailey
14:43:28 <ais523> does ais523 count as a nickname?
14:43:52 <Taneb> I guess in IRC nomenclature it is
14:43:54 <oerjan> ais523: you misspelled obfuscation hth
14:44:10 <Taneb> Although do people often refer to you as Alex "ais523" Smith?
14:44:33 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55698&oldid=55697 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Obfuscation */ fix typo in header
14:44:48 <ais523> Speed Demos Archive probably would, although they'd leave the "Dr" off
14:46:23 * ais523 notes that the I/D machine compiles almost directly into Unreadable
14:47:33 <oerjan> hm right, internet nicknames would be it nowadays...
14:47:41 <ais523> hmm, esolang idea I just had: a cross between BF and Subtractpocalypse; it's basically just + < - > with bignum cells, and attempting to decrement a cell below 0 restarts the program
14:47:56 <ais523> you cannot obviously compile Subtractpocalypse into this but it's pretty close
14:49:17 <ais523> and you can almost certainly remove < from it by having a finite-length tape that wraps (in fact, that probably makes it easier to program in rather than harder)
14:50:03 <ais523> …and by merging commands to give +> and - you have a two-command language which is probably TC
14:50:38 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55699&oldid=55698 * Iamcalledbob * (+10) /* Purpose */
14:51:12 <ais523> does the current Subtractpocalypse TCness proof ever reduce two counters in the same command? if not then this /is/ TC
14:52:04 <ais523> unfortunately it does, I don't think it /has/ to, though
14:52:43 <Taneb> oerjan: I do get called "Taneb" in person sometimes
14:52:50 <Taneb> Mostly people I know from CS at uni
14:53:06 <ais523> Taneb: your nick's currently being shown in a color that's hard to read so I have to look at your comments to see who said them
14:53:23 <Taneb> ais523: I'm terribly sorry
14:53:25 <ais523> when I saw that comment, I was hoping it had been said by someone other than Taneb :-)
14:53:36 <Taneb> :D that'd be something
14:53:53 <ais523> (sorry for not typing those two comments at the same time, the first doesn't really make sense on its own, but I'm in the middle of a distro upgrade and it chose that moment to stop my keyboard working)
14:54:37 <ais523> this is an often-overlooked danger in using newline as a punctuation mark
14:59:41 <oerjan> i want to revert iamcalledbob's last edit but my intuition refuses.
15:00:05 <oerjan> or is it anxiety, whatever.
15:00:44 <oerjan> oh hm forgetting my email...
15:00:51 <ais523> I don't agree with removing minimalism altogether
15:02:09 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55700&oldid=55699 * Ais523 * (-10) Undo revision 55699 by Iamcalledbob; I disagree with many of these changes, e.g. minimalism and obfuscation are quite different in nature (languages are often reduced to few commands for reasons other than making them hard to read)
15:02:22 <ais523> nor with merging it with obfuscation
15:03:36 <ais523> anyway, the distro update has finished so I'm going to reboot, hopefully the computer still works :-D
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15:12:28 <Taneb> ...we've accidentally started using the worst chat client here
15:12:37 <Taneb> Bash comments in a shared tmux session
15:16:33 <int-e> hmm, that's worse than "talk" :)
15:20:35 <Taneb> Instead of having nicks or whatever we just start with different amounts of whitespace
15:21:31 <int-e> # it scales really well.
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15:27:53 <ais523> well, that didn't go so well
15:28:10 <ais523> at least I managed to get a GUI desktop up, after about four tries
15:28:46 <ais523> although I'm running MATE because my normal desktop environment is crashing on login
15:29:03 <ais523> luckily this was already installed (I'm not sure how to connect to wifi from the terminal)
15:30:48 <ais523> the other problem is that the mouse doesn't work on the login screen for some reason and my choice of login screen implementation apparently breaks when you try to change desktop environment with the keyboard
15:31:16 <ais523> so I had to start a different one with the terminal…
15:32:13 * ais523 does an update, then will try again
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17:32:37 <HackEso> olist 1124: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:07:31 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55701&oldid=55655 * B jonas * (+24)
20:08:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'd just like to note that iamcalledbob also didn't follow the instructions specifically for avoiding spambot registrations: Introduce yourself says "write a short description (one or two sentences is enough) about what brings you to this wiki".
20:09:42 <wob_jonas> Nor the part about "At the end of that description, sign your name by writing in "~~~~" (without quotes),"
20:10:06 <wob_jonas> should have banned him immediately for clearly being a spambot
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20:14:35 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55702&oldid=55701 * B jonas * (+5)
20:32:33 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> hmm, I wonder if I can argue that the I/D machine is a BF instruction minimalization? / and D doesn't look too out of place in a BF derivative / there's probably one that has it already :-P" : true. I think the \x7F command in Symbolic Brainfuck does that
20:34:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: hmm, didn't feel like a bot.
20:35:50 <int-e> wob_jonas: why would a bot use an edit message that says "I want people to see that there is another 1-instruction turing-taprit language."
20:36:40 <int-e> anyway, weird person... especially, since that move failed to do what they apparently wanted, why did they start moving other things around afterwards?
20:38:48 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55703&oldid=54537 * B jonas * (+322) can be seen as a brainfuck derivative (thanks for noticing, ais523)
20:40:00 <wob_jonas> the move didn't fail what they wanted. because of them spamming, several of us esolang wiki users are checking his edits for possible vandalism, so we noticed that yet another stupid language
20:40:48 <wob_jonas> it would be unnoticed in the noise of stupid languages on the wiki otherwise, which new users come and create
20:41:00 <wob_jonas> which is sad especially because it gets hard to find the actually interesting languages among them
20:47:09 <int-e> Meh misguided and clueless is my assessment... don't get me wrong, this may be even *more* annoying than actual spam.
20:47:55 <wob_jonas> exactly. we delete spam, but we leave all the bad esolangs up there, and the wiki gets full of that
20:47:57 <int-e> (And it can easily drift off into vandalism, hard to draw a clear line.)
20:48:11 <wob_jonas> I genuinely can't just browse the wiki to find random interesting esolangs
21:00:19 <esowiki> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55704&oldid=55010 * Voltage2007 * (+482) Added compiler
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21:44:26 <imode> I've seen people auto-generating things like rules for string rewriting systems. is there any literature on this? converting traditional imperative algorithms to rewrite relations?
21:48:08 <imode> I know many people have created things like BASIC to brainfuck compilers.
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22:56:52 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55705 * Ais523 * (+10304) new language!
22:57:17 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55706&oldid=55705 * Ais523 * (+18) /* Standard version */ class=wikitable
22:57:59 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55707&oldid=55685 * Ais523 * (+21) /* B */ +[[Brainpocalypse]]
22:58:25 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55708&oldid=55337 * Ais523 * (+20) +[[Brainpocalypse]]
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23:16:35 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/CHN2/text modeling a stack with a 3-symbol data alphabet.
23:17:06 <imode> this can probably be made shorter if I allowed just two symbols. it's pretty mechanical. I wonder if I can do head-juggling.
23:18:00 <int-e> that ::= just feeld wrong to me.
23:18:16 <imode> should be -> or something.
23:18:57 <imode> the benefit is you can have multiple stacks in tandem, doing work independently. exchanging things between instruction streams could probably happen.
23:19:34 <int-e> (especially since I've actually worked with string rewriting systems (aka semi-Thue systems))
23:20:55 <int-e> it's an actual area of theoretical computer science.
23:21:12 <imode> I'm aware, just wondered what you've dealt with.
23:21:35 <imode> they're deceptively simple.
23:21:50 <int-e> mostly confluence analysis (and mostly term rewriting systems, of which string rewriting is a special case)
23:23:01 <imode> I'd think the other way around, tbh. in the end you're performing substitution rules on trees represented as strings, which in many cases is nested parens or path-based representations.
23:23:33 <int-e> (our terms are trees, not strings)
23:23:46 <imode> change my view, because you are. :P
23:24:02 <int-e> "we" did not encompass you, necessarily :)
23:24:52 <imode> in what world are strings a special case of terms? it's the other way around lmao.
23:25:37 <int-e> in "our" world, strings are terms built exclusively from unary function symbols (and one constant for the empty string).
23:26:16 <int-e> I admit that this is a bit strange.
23:26:46 <imode> you can take both views, I guess, depending on your vantage point, as terms admit a canonical representation that's stringy.
23:26:53 <int-e> But it's much more strange to treat terms as strings, because that makes all operations on terms awkward.
23:27:03 <int-e> (to my mind, ymmv, etc)
23:28:49 <imode> dyck languages are a good fit for representing terms imho, because they admit easy pattern matching based on depth.
23:29:34 <shachaf> I'm wondering whether colorForth and ALGOL had a reasonable idea making color/bold part of the syntax.
23:29:41 <int-e> it does... it even shuts itself off for hours at a time!
23:30:35 <int-e> (which, I think, is something I should have let it do about an hour ago, so good night)
23:31:22 <int-e> (but I was too busy with extracting bits from unfair dice... big waste of time :P)
23:34:58 <imode> int-e: if you've dealt with things like string rewriting, would you say that semi-thue systems are a special case of another class of string rewrite systems?
23:36:26 <imode> my reasoning is that any system higher than thue-like introduces variables, which are an abstraction and not required.
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02:28:19 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55709 * HereToAnnoy * (+5370) created page about a horrible weirdlang
02:28:50 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55710&oldid=55648 * HereToAnnoy * (+41) blah blah blah horrible weirdlang
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02:43:48 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55711&oldid=55682 * Iamcalledbob * (+111) /* Examples */
02:44:17 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55712&oldid=55711 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */
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03:14:34 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55713&oldid=55712 * Iamcalledbob * (+99) /* Commands */
03:50:10 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55714&oldid=55713 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Commands */
03:50:24 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55715&oldid=55714 * Iamcalledbob * (+1) /* Commands */
03:59:53 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55716&oldid=55715 * Iamcalledbob * (+4) /* Commands */
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04:42:27 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55717&oldid=54867 * Iamcalledbob * (+32) /* Survey */
04:43:39 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55718&oldid=55717 * Iamcalledbob * (+29) /* Survey */
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04:53:03 <esowiki> [[$]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55719 * Iamcalledbob * (+1366) Created page with "[[$]] ==Explanation== There is only 1 command, $. A place only has numbers. If anything is assigned to cell number 0, print the ASCII value out. Like: 2313132 A number has "+..."
04:53:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55720&oldid=55707 * Iamcalledbob * (+8)
04:54:06 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55721&oldid=55718 * Iamcalledbob * (+53) /* Survey */
04:54:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55722&oldid=55720 * Iamcalledbob * (+17) /* F */
04:55:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55723&oldid=55722 * Iamcalledbob * (-17) /* F */
05:29:04 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55724&oldid=55688 * Iamcalledbob * (+169) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */
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05:47:58 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55725&oldid=55702 * Iamcalledbob * (+31) /* Turing-completeness */
05:48:35 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55726&oldid=55725 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Turing-completeness */
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07:10:30 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55727 * Iamcalledbob * (+157) Created page with "I discovered that the Befunge program 9482350042>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ 's output turns out to be 105260548 . My password is :12345678 My username is : Iamcalledbob"
07:11:02 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55728&oldid=55727 * Iamcalledbob * (+10)
07:13:14 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55729&oldid=55724 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */
07:19:12 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55730&oldid=55728 * Iamcalledbob * (+1035)
07:19:43 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55731&oldid=55730 * Iamcalledbob * (+12)
07:21:14 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55732&oldid=55731 * Iamcalledbob * (+92)
07:23:05 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55733&oldid=55732 * Iamcalledbob * (+137)
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07:31:32 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55734&oldid=55733 * Iamcalledbob * (+146)
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07:39:25 <esowiki> [[(]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55735 * Iamcalledbob * (+394) Created page with "==(== ===( is a deprivative of $ that only works when the current user is dead.=== ===This makes it impossible to use.=== ==Computability(Halting problem)== ===If the user is..."
07:40:22 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55736&oldid=55686 * Iamcalledbob * (+69)
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09:33:43 <esowiki> [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55737&oldid=53509 * Chris Pressey * (-19) Using Wayback for this purpose seems slightly wasteful or misguided or something
09:44:47 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55738 * Iamcalledbob * (+436) Created page with "==ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE== ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Alphabet numbers !! controls | 1 || input a string and push it onto the stack |- | 2 || clear the next..."
09:45:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55739&oldid=55723 * Iamcalledbob * (+36) /* O */
09:46:29 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55740&oldid=55738 * Iamcalledbob * (+28)
09:47:21 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55741&oldid=55740 * Iamcalledbob * (+11)
09:47:52 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55742&oldid=55741 * Iamcalledbob * (+17) /* Hello,world */
09:48:28 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55743&oldid=55742 * Iamcalledbob * (+11) /* Hello,world */
10:00:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainpocalypse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55744 * Keymaker * (+2211) Some thoughts.
10:04:06 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55745&oldid=55743 * Iamcalledbob * (+221) /* Commands */
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10:34:17 <esowiki> [[Subtractpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55746&oldid=55515 * Keymaker * (+1951) Added Sub to MM translation example.
10:50:00 <esowiki> [[Category talk:2018]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55747 * Chris Pressey * (+252) There appears to be a eird technical issue with this category page?
10:52:35 <esowiki> [[2D-BCT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55748 * Iamcalledbob * (+2149) Created page with "==2D-BCT== I want to design a language that includes all the purposes of an esolang. ==BCT== A '''BCT program''' is any finite string of bits (commands), executed as follows:..."
10:53:02 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55749&oldid=55700 * Iamcalledbob * (+4) /* Brevity */
10:56:41 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55750&oldid=55749 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* Brevity */
10:56:54 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55751&oldid=55750 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* Brevity */
10:57:11 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55752&oldid=55751 * Iamcalledbob * (-4) /* Brevity */
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11:39:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Expload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55753&oldid=34973 * Chris Pressey * (+1852) Thoughts from re-reading this article
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11:59:18 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55754&oldid=54312 * Chris Pressey * (-2) The article includes an implementation, so, move from Unimplemented to Implemented category
12:25:54 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55755&oldid=55754 * Chris Pressey * (+181) Add summary that hopefully makes it clear what a zeroing trigger actually does.
12:37:19 <esowiki> [[Brianfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55756 * Iamcalledbob * (+2051) Created page with "==Brianfuck== ==Brainfuck Info== Brainfuck operates on an array of memory cells, also referred to as the [[tape]], each initially set to zero. There is a [[pointer]], initiall..."
12:37:42 <esowiki> [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55757&oldid=55756 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* In all of the questions, Brianfuck has only 1 byte, but Flogscript has a lot. */
12:38:25 <esowiki> [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55758&oldid=55757 * Iamcalledbob * (+31)
12:40:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55759&oldid=54320 * Chris Pressey * (+548) Wondering if I've missed something re the declared undefined behaviour
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12:47:49 <wob_jonas> In Windows, the taskbar buttons used to have a different background color for minimized windows than for restored windows. but apparently for windows 10, or at least this windows 10 machine, that isn't the case.
12:49:51 <wob_jonas> This is very annoying, and I don't know how to change it. I've set the option "settings / personalization / colors / more options / show accent color on the following surfaces / start, taskbar, and action center", which recolors the taskbar buttons from black to colored, but that doesn't fix this.
12:51:04 <wob_jonas> also, some of the taskbar buttons have a slightly lighter backround, but I can't figure out what that means
12:52:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55760&oldid=55759 * Chris Pressey * (+738)
12:54:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55761&oldid=55760 * Chris Pressey * (+238)
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13:03:30 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55762&oldid=55736 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* General languages */
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13:30:11 <esowiki> [[Equipage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55763&oldid=55625 * Chris Pressey * (+3997) Import some description from its README (which I wrote and which is also in the public domain anyway.) Remove 'stub' macro.
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13:31:18 <wob_jonas> "<int-e> in "our" world, strings are terms built exclusively from unary function symbols (and one constant for the empty string)." => exactly, in my world too. strings are inconvenient, and for a long time I didn't understand why everyone in mathematics didn't just work with tree-like terms,
13:31:34 <wob_jonas> with the string representation being mostly irrelevant and a job for computer stuff. but later I realized why:
13:32:42 <wob_jonas> you need the strings themselves for bootstrapping of Godel numbering if you want to prove that there are undecidable *arithmetic* statements using the natural numbers and addition and multiplication and equality and first-order logic
13:33:47 <wob_jonas> because even that way (and even if you enable to power operation), translating loops to first-order statements on arithmetic is the hard part, and looping on a string you can just barely manage and stay in delta-zero or whatever that thing is,
13:33:56 <wob_jonas> but looping on a tree would be impossible directly.
13:34:18 <wob_jonas> uh... I don't know the details, I don't have them swapped in my head right now, but the point is,
13:34:28 <wob_jonas> there is a good reason why sometimes you have to consider strings,
13:34:39 <wob_jonas> even though normally you prefer a term to mean tree-like stuff
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13:44:02 <esowiki> [[PLEASE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55764 * Iamcalledbob * (+1103) Created page with "[[$]] ==Explanation== There is only 1 command, assign. A place only has numbers. If anything is assigned to cell number 0, print the ASCII value out. Like: 2313132 A number h..."
13:44:40 <esowiki> [[PLEASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55765&oldid=55764 * Iamcalledbob * (+14) /* Turing-Completeness */
13:48:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brianfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55766 * ZM * (+276) Created page with "==Duplicate title== Small hint: when creating a page, it is unnecessary to include a header with the page name at the beginning as this is included automatically by MediaWiki..."
13:52:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55767&oldid=55761 * B jonas * (+664) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
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13:59:18 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Equipage => I think this one is probably Turing-complete. You can probably translate Underload to this.
14:00:04 <wob_jonas> you need some tricky way to build quoted functions
14:00:51 <wob_jonas> probably with a number of fixed functions on the top of the stack all the time
14:01:04 <wob_jonas> but I'm not sure how you'd bootstrap some trees or something
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14:02:29 <wob_jonas> darn, I think I have an idea for that one, but I'd have to reduce a very small subset of Consumer Society into it
14:02:51 <wob_jonas> and I could only simulate a turing machine with one tape that way
14:02:56 <wob_jonas> and I don't see how I could do better than that
14:03:31 <wob_jonas> I should instead try a negative proof
14:03:49 <wob_jonas> proving that there are certain interesting things that the language can't do but that you expect such a language to do
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14:16:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55768&oldid=55767 * Chris Pressey * (+674)
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14:40:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55769&oldid=55768 * Chris Pressey * (+224)
14:46:32 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55770&oldid=55721 * Oerjan * (-1) /* Survey */ typo
14:51:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55771&oldid=55769 * Chris Pressey * (+85) parenthetical addendum
14:51:23 <wob_jonas> no second question by the way, I solved it by searching the internet for the right terms
14:51:36 <wob_jonas> I haven't solved the first one, about the windows taskbar
14:51:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55772&oldid=55771 * Chris Pressey * (-4)
14:54:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55773&oldid=55772 * Chris Pressey * (-1)
14:59:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55774&oldid=55773 * B jonas * (+470) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
15:00:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55775&oldid=55774 * Chris Pressey * (+235)
15:03:34 <esowiki> [[Category:2018]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55776&oldid=53928 * Oerjan * (+1) Dummy edit to bump cache
15:05:03 <esowiki> [[Category talk:2018]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55777&oldid=55747 * Oerjan * (+346) Known bug
15:34:21 <imode> well, just made a string rewriting interpreter that supports comments. going to have it support variable delimiters too.
15:35:32 <wob_jonas> imode: do you mean an interpreter that interprets a string-rewriting language, or an interpreter implemented in a string-rewriting language?
15:35:44 <imode> interpreter that interprets a string rewriting language.
15:36:54 <wob_jonas> the interface of my spare phone is so counter-intuitive, I already hate it, and I've barely used it
15:37:17 <wob_jonas> I'll have to look for a better phone
15:37:28 <imode> comments are just lines that don't contain the delimiter, and I'm thinking of having the top two lines define the delimiter for each of the rules and the end of the rules.
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15:43:01 <wob_jonas> did they even do proper user interface testing for this, where a good software tester guy uses this phone in practice for weeks and writes down everything that should be changed?
15:43:16 <wob_jonas> they don't make phones the way they used to anymore
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15:51:08 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> you need some tricky way to build quoted functions <-- indeed, the functions seem to be mostly of the form "push X to", but no way to iterate it.
15:52:49 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55778&oldid=55706 * Ais523 * (+271) /* Commands and syntax */ explain halt behaviour explicitly
15:53:26 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I think I'll be able to construct a proof. I have an idea. but I have to get back to that later, I'm busy with other stuff now.
15:53:32 <oerjan> but having all of them permanently in a know position on the stack might get around it like you said.
15:55:42 <oerjan> oh and pick can pick from bottom, that helps
15:56:33 <oerjan> wob_jonas: so you can put your fixed functions there instead of at the top
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16:11:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55779&oldid=55744 * Ais523 * (+3164) r to Keymaker
16:13:51 <wob_jonas> oh, it can pick from the bottom of the stack for negative values? that makes it way too easy
16:14:18 <wob_jonas> I think I have a solution for picking from the top only though
16:14:48 <wob_jonas> although I'm not really sure it works
16:14:58 <esowiki> [[Category talk:2018]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55780&oldid=55777 * Ais523 * (+355) https vs. http
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16:16:12 <wob_jonas> and I think the instructions -%\ aren't even necessary
16:16:46 <wob_jonas> you need !:.~ for everything, and 1+ to make numbers for ~
16:17:02 <wob_jonas> oh, and $ is useful too, because we often need to discard
16:17:19 <wob_jonas> still, it's an ugly model to work with
16:17:39 <wob_jonas> I don't think I'll be able to do more than a tape
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16:24:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55781&oldid=55775 * Ais523 * (+1997) /* Undefined behavior */ explain
16:29:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55782&oldid=55781 * Chris Pressey * (+501)
16:30:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55783&oldid=55782 * Ais523 * (+1044) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ (ec) replies
16:40:33 <esowiki> [[Chronofuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55784 * Jabutosama * (+1427) created the page
16:42:10 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/UZpd/python https://ptpb.pw/g_93/text
16:42:24 <imode> my interpreter and a sample program. not quite thue, but good enough.
16:42:25 <esowiki> [[Chronofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55785&oldid=55784 * Jabutosama * (+87)
16:46:20 <imode> the next thing to do is work on getting a minimal state machine working, then I can translate line-numbers to states.
16:47:47 <imode> essentially, I want certain rules to apply when we're in a certain state. the problem is that I want to take any given set of rules (within a reasonable range) and be able to either prefix or postfix or do some simple modification to them to make them run sequentially based on conditions.
16:49:09 <imode> and I'd like to translate this whole thing to a queue problem so I don't have to continually start over in my pattern search, but I'm having a hard time getting it to halt, considering the result for "no pattern matched" is to dequeue and requeue a symbol, rather than fail.
16:49:31 <imode> I have a feeling I can do it by just using a marker on the queue, but the signalling involved gets weird.
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17:46:06 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55786&oldid=55555 * Truttle1 * (+55) Added AsciiDots
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17:58:37 <esowiki> [[PUBERTY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55787&oldid=55654 * Izumariu * (+453) Added truth machine example and added wiki links to the examples
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18:10:55 <esowiki> [[Neg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55788&oldid=53755 * HereToAnnoy * (+48) fsm i hate all of my languages
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18:42:12 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55789&oldid=55709 * HereToAnnoy * (+1239) Added line number system (creating superpositions, yay). Hopefully this makes the language just a bit esoteric from the when function.
18:42:35 <wob_jonas> this phone is so annoying I have to rant about it
18:43:13 <wob_jonas> I'm still experimenting with it, so there's a lot I don't know, but there's a lot of annoying things I found already that I must rant to you now
18:44:07 <wob_jonas> I'd tell you what phone it is, but I'm not sure, because I forgot and the fucking type number isn't written anywhere on it, not even on the label under the battery, nor in the UI
18:44:28 <wob_jonas> so it's a Nokia non-smartphone but I don't know the number
18:45:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55790&oldid=55739 * HereToAnnoy * (+14) /* G */
18:45:44 <wob_jonas> firstly, I still haven't discovered a safe button sequence without timeouts that takes me to the home screen from most states, including when the phone is locked.
18:46:35 <wob_jonas> the R button seems safe anywhere (except during a call that it hangs up), and it's a good start, but it can take you to one of *four* states, one of which decay into a fifth state by timeout, and I'm not sure how to proceed from that
18:46:50 <wob_jonas> I'll have to make a table of the state automaton to figure this one out
18:46:57 <wob_jonas> it's too complicated to solve in my head
18:47:18 <wob_jonas> (and one of the four states decays into one other of the fourth state by timeout)
18:47:43 <wob_jonas> I'd like a short sequence, but prefer one that includes optional timeouts between most button presses in it, so I can take a pause during in most places
18:48:16 <wob_jonas> (you can't take a pause anywhere, and for a good reason, becuase from the locked state you can't get into the unlocked state with single presses with pauses between, which is good design)
18:48:27 <wob_jonas> and I'd like a sequence with no mandatory timeouts
18:49:12 <wob_jonas> but this is not obvious, because one of the states is the home screen, which has almost every button bound to do something, only the P button goes back to the home screen
18:49:34 <wob_jonas> on the home screen, EVERY button does something
18:50:10 <wob_jonas> not necessarily something harmful, but goes to some state that I have to consider
18:50:41 <wob_jonas> anyway, I'll get back to this when I mapped all the states, but for now, other stuff
18:51:11 <wob_jonas> I expected to find a functional music player in this phone. the description when I bought said it had one.
18:51:35 <wob_jonas> well, it can play the mp3s from my SD card, but the media player is so messed up it's completely unusable for me
18:51:57 <wob_jonas> the worst part is that it won't play albums in order
18:52:37 <wob_jonas> it apparently ignores the album and track number metadata in the file entirely, which is a good thing because some of the files I have on it aren't encoded by me and don't have it filled correctly
18:52:59 <wob_jonas> instead it lists music by directory, in some tree order on the file system
18:53:22 <wob_jonas> BUT THE ORDER OF THE TRACKS IN A DIRECTORY seems to follow no logic I can discover
18:53:37 <wob_jonas> in some directories it's in order, in some there are ordered parts, in some it's completely jumbled
18:54:12 <wob_jonas> in some directories, the filenames actually only differ in three digits, and you'd just have to sort by those. there's no way to mess up sorting in that directory if you sort by filename.
18:55:01 <wob_jonas> the files in that directory show up in the correct order if I view them in the file browser of the phone, but I can't play music from there: actually you sort of can, but it only plays one file and won't continue to other files in any way if you do that
18:55:15 <wob_jonas> and in the music player app, the files in that directory show up in some apparently random order
18:55:33 <wob_jonas> it's also not the track number, because I created these files myself and filled the track number and other metadata well
18:55:49 <wob_jonas> you can't create playlists or reorder the playlist or anything as far as I can tell
18:56:01 <wob_jonas> so there's just no absolutely no way to play a fucking album in order
18:56:48 <wob_jonas> the other problem is that you can't easily play music in the background, while doing something else
18:57:46 <wob_jonas> you sort of almost can, but it messes up the home screen, hijacking seven of the important buttons as media player controls, which makes the phone almost impossible to use
18:59:07 <wob_jonas> oh, I haven't even considered those states in the automaton in my head, darn it. that complicates the states even more.
18:59:39 <wob_jonas> that's at least two more states that the R key can take you, I think
19:00:05 <wob_jonas> I haven't played much with this, but there's one thing I discovered
19:02:03 <wob_jonas> if you start to write an SMS, accidentally put a single digit in the To field (which is supposed to have the phone number top send to), then in the Content field, you accidentally press G or E, which would normally send the message, then the phone tries to send the message and fails because the recipient is invalid. so far this sounds ok.
19:02:40 <wob_jonas> but when the message is failed to be sent, it goes into a libo state where I can view the first pageful or delete, but as far as I can see, there's no way to continue editing or view the rest of the text or anything.
19:03:32 <wob_jonas> the messages application main screen has a list of conversations (grouped by phone number) with all sorts mixed (sent, draft, incoming),
19:04:28 <wob_jonas> then if you choose one of those, you get into this horrible bubble view where you see each SMS (whether sent, incoming, or draft) in the conversation as this speech bubble thing, and when you select one, you have to press E to view its full text and metadata,
19:05:01 <wob_jonas> but for messages that were failed to send, E resends the message, which fails again, and there's nothing else you can do to recover from that state other then delete the message.
19:05:46 <wob_jonas> so basically, one wrong button press in the To field (you obviously don't enter a valid recipient there, because then you can accidentally send the message early) and then one wrong buttonn press while typing the message, and you're screwed.
19:06:58 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55791&oldid=55789 * HereToAnnoy * (+78) typos & minor tweaks
19:06:59 <wob_jonas> At least if you actually leave the To field empty, then when you accidentally try to send (with E or G in the content field while composing), it actually just shows an error message and lets you continue editing
19:07:26 <wob_jonas> but mind you, that error message takes your cursor to the To field which you'll then accidentally fill with a digit
19:07:42 <wob_jonas> so it's not even hard to carelessly enter the limbo state
19:08:22 <wob_jonas> do these people even know how ui testing works? just give the phone to a power user for two weeks and he'll tell you half of this
19:08:52 <wob_jonas> there's more but I haven't discovered everything yet
19:11:34 <wob_jonas> I think I understand why the type number isn't written anywhere, not even under the battery as it normally is with sane phones
19:11:39 <wob_jonas> they don't want people to write bad reviews
19:11:49 <wob_jonas> and you can't really if you can't tell what phone it is you're reviewing
19:12:15 <wob_jonas> (I think it's a Nokia 216, but I can't swear on that. I've bought it 7 months ago just to have a spare and thrown away the box.)
19:12:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55792&oldid=55786 * HereToAnnoy * (+504) added GetWhen
19:14:49 <wob_jonas> in the menu for setting the current time and date, there's an entry saying "Auto-update time". if you turn it on, it hides all the other settings in that menu, so you can't set the clock. I don't know why.
19:15:18 <wob_jonas> I think it's trying to get the time from the internet, but I don't have an internet connection enabled or something, and it doesn't actually get the correct time without or anything.
19:15:56 <wob_jonas> but seriously, it even hides the option for 12 hour versus 24 hour and the time zone, I have no idea why.
19:16:47 <wob_jonas> 3 and 5 works, I can set the time and date
19:18:03 <wob_jonas> 2 is strange, it might be working or it might not: it displays some list of timezones, including "GMT +1 Paris", "GMT +2 Cairo", "GMT +2 Athens" etc
19:18:16 <wob_jonas> but nowhere is the daylight saving mentioned
19:18:30 <wob_jonas> it doesn't tell anywhere that I'm supposed to be in +0200 now if I set to "GMT +1 Paris"
19:18:47 <wob_jonas> I don't know what timezone it uses and whether it will adjust DST
19:19:17 <wob_jonas> I don't think it even has all timezones (with dst settings) that it should, but has redundant timezones
19:21:22 <wob_jonas> just with really strange names I can't recognize
19:22:27 <wob_jonas> the Reykyavik timezone (always +0000) is called "GMT Casablanca", the London timezone is "GMT London", the Paris timezone is "GMT +1 Paris" and "GMT +1 Rome" and GMT +1 Warsaw" and "GMT +1 Berlin" (aren't those all the same now?)
19:23:40 <wob_jonas> then the Bucharest timezone is "GMT +2 Helsinki", that's fine
19:25:57 <wob_jonas> ok, I think it has all big timezones, but it doesn't seem to have a way to turn off DST changing for some offsets
19:26:21 <wob_jonas> there's only three -0500 base offset timezones, and all three have DST
19:27:47 <wob_jonas> that means it actually doesn't have the timezone for -0500 no DST, which is used in Jamaica
19:27:54 <wob_jonas> not that I want to travel there, but strange timezone list
19:29:03 <wob_jonas> or the one in Bolivia, which has a DST. the three -5 timezones listed are "GMT -5 Washington D.C.", "GMT -5 Toronto", "GMT -5 New York",
19:30:02 <wob_jonas> which are all three the same timezones, the New York one
19:30:13 <wob_jonas> I don't even know if this phone even does DST adjustments
19:30:24 <wob_jonas> but if it doesn't, then why is there even a "time zone" setting?
19:30:31 <wob_jonas> it doesn't display the time zone or UTC time anywhere,
19:30:49 <wob_jonas> and since my SD card uses the FAT file system, by custom it stores only local times
19:30:59 <wob_jonas> so I have no idea how it will behave at the DST change date
19:34:50 <wob_jonas> the time setting is annoying by the way, because you can only set the clock to a specific minute, but if you wait a minute on that screen in this phone, it darkens the screen and the first button press won't accept the time setting, so you're screwed if you don't keep pressing buttons
19:34:58 <wob_jonas> but that's not specific to this phone, it happens on many devices
19:35:37 <wob_jonas> I just met it too many times because the phone is still new and I've been removing the battery several times and have to set the clock every time after it
19:36:05 <wob_jonas> because if the battery is removed even for a second, then the internal clock no longer keep the time, it stops
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19:47:33 <wob_jonas> 5. on the plus side, this one charges from that type of USB connector that most phones do these days
19:47:49 <wob_jonas> so I can get rid of one more special charger type
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19:48:05 <wob_jonas> my previous phone used a cylindrical charger plug
19:48:14 <wob_jonas> now I only have four types of chargers:
19:48:44 <wob_jonas> the normal USB stuff for this phone and the bluetooth microphone (and probably future small devices too, like a better phone),
19:49:14 <wob_jonas> plus a special one for the electric toothbrush and a special one for the shaver
19:49:27 <wob_jonas> but the latter two have serious waterproofing requirements
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20:15:53 <wob_jonas> I just ranted about the UI of my new phone, and I haven't even discovered most of it. you can logread if you want, but it's a rant, hard to read
20:15:56 <ais523> do you have any feedback on my M:tG stuff so far?
20:16:09 <wob_jonas> I haven't read what you've written
20:16:19 <wob_jonas> am I supposed to have found the link to the M:tG stuff?
20:16:20 <ais523> I did, let me try to find it in the logs so that I can relink it
20:16:32 <ais523> either that or I tried to send it but it didn't go through for some reason
20:16:34 <wob_jonas> you could link it from the esowiki somewhere at least
20:16:47 <wob_jonas> if it was only in irc, I might have missed it
20:17:02 <ais523> [Wednesday, 13 June 2018] [14:36:28 BST] <ais523> wob_jonas: nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-maindeck.html.txt nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-setup.html.txt (these are temporary links that won't stay up that long, and these are not the final versions of the files)
20:17:12 <ais523> I don't want to be linking to temporary versions on the esowiki
20:17:21 <ais523> this is a work in progress and I don't want people advertising it everywhere until it's done
20:18:52 <wob_jonas> I must have missed that, I didn't read the logs of #esoteric carefully in a few days because I was very busy
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20:26:28 <wob_jonas> "it means that you can't pull this off in a tournament (where the opponent is unlikely to have the deck you need or to cooperate in setting the gamestate up), which in turn means that you can't mess around with the Tournament Rules (which contain things like infinite loop handling, and thus are very relevant for this sort of work)."
20:27:00 <wob_jonas> I don't quite like this game sentence in the introduction. I know what you mean but only because of earlier context from our discussions.
20:27:13 <wob_jonas> The problem is that these are two different things that this statement doesn't explain.
20:27:58 <wob_jonas> 1. you can't pull this off in a tournament. ok, but at this point (and for very long in the text) as a reader I won't believe that there's any such setup that you can pull off in a tournament, so it's not obvious what contrast you're talking here,
20:28:08 <wob_jonas> that's what you're trying to explain, but you'r conflating it with
20:28:16 <wob_jonas> 2. you can't mess around with the Tournament Rules
20:28:27 <wob_jonas> I don't think that's a reasonable implication or equivalence
20:28:50 <wob_jonas> you can use the the Tournament rules anywhere
20:29:11 <wob_jonas> it is a reasonable base even for unsanctioned tournaments, for which you just ignore the sections about DCI number and whatever
20:29:30 <wob_jonas> but it's a good framework so you might use some of its rules even at home or something
20:29:44 <wob_jonas> they might be relevant or not, but that's a separate question
20:29:49 <wob_jonas> don't put them in the same sentence
20:31:51 <wob_jonas> you can mention "you can't pull this off in a tournament", but that's a big deal that's normally obvious, you can normally never pull off these sorts of things in a tournament
20:32:11 <wob_jonas> you want to challenge that assumption, but you have to write that in a clear positive sentence at first, not in this long mess
20:32:29 <wob_jonas> not together with the Tournament rules
20:34:12 <wob_jonas> "However, our only changes are to the sideboard: our sixty maindeck cards are exactly the same." wow
20:34:33 <wob_jonas> last I've heard of this project, I think that wasn't yet the case. you had a few customizations in the main deck
20:36:07 <wob_jonas> ARGH I'm stuck in stack mode, with too many things I start and can't finish anything
20:36:19 <wob_jonas> now I'm stuck reading this interesting M:tG document
20:36:40 <wob_jonas> "The core of Omni-Tell" this heading section is nice well written
20:36:53 <wob_jonas> the "About Omni-Tell" heading section too
20:38:47 <wob_jonas> "The maindeck has no way to generate mana except via using its lands, and needs three mana [...] This requires a minimum of two lands"
20:39:18 <wob_jonas> this is absolutely true and the next part explains it, but totally alien for me, because in formats other than legacy and vintage, lands that produce two mana early just aren't a thing
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20:39:32 <wob_jonas> there are storage lands, but you won't use them early in a practical deck
20:39:54 <wob_jonas> "a double-colourless source like Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors" clears it up right away though
20:40:16 <ais523> lands that produce {2} mostly only show up in Legacy combo decks
20:40:35 <wob_jonas> unless you are aiming for such a double-take, you might want to mention double lands before that sentence
20:40:37 <ais523> that and the urzatron but it's a special case
20:40:54 <wob_jonas> sure, but I'm thinking of early turns
20:41:07 <wob_jonas> urzatron and storage lands are fine, but if you only have lands, you won't pull that off early
20:41:20 <wob_jonas> and that sentence seems to imply that this is in the early turns
20:41:53 <wob_jonas> and you won't have early Llanowar Elves or Arbor Elves or any of that stuff I use
20:42:22 <wob_jonas> nor one of the few one mana cost artifacts that give a third mana in second turn
20:42:28 <ais523> the Modern players out there are probably doing a double-take upon seeing a basic Island :-)
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20:44:17 <wob_jonas> I didn't, I play basic lands, and I think there are some standard formats with no lands with Island or Plains etc type other than those, but some lands or spells that search for a basic land type (or search for a basic land), in which case people include just a few in their deck
20:44:28 <wob_jonas> or doesn't standard sometimes work like that?
20:44:44 <ais523> effects that search for basics specifically are rare
20:44:55 <ais523> effects that search for basic land types are common but there are plenty of good nonbasic lands which have the types
20:45:12 <wob_jonas> right, "search for a Forest" or "search for a Plains"
20:45:34 <wob_jonas> there are a few good ones, but are they reprinted often enough to always be in the standard?
20:45:53 <ais523> in Standard you often have to look for basics
20:46:03 <ais523> but the last time there were good land searching effects, there were good-enough dual lands too
20:46:10 <wob_jonas> there are only like six nonbasic cycles like that I think, not counting the Limited ones which will never be reprinted, and a few are bad for tournaments
20:46:27 <wob_jonas> oh, so there aren't always good land searching effects?
20:46:46 <ais523> but it was a bit of a mess, because there were lots of three-color cards (with an ally+two enemy pairs among the three colors), but the basic-land-type lands were ally-colored
20:47:00 <wob_jonas> good enough for a tournament that is?
20:47:11 <wob_jonas> or perhaps no good ones if you don't play green?
20:47:33 <ais523> this may have been intended to make them hard to use together, but what actually happened is that people ended up playing four colors because it worked better than three, so the top decks ended up largely identical, just playing all the best cards in four colors
20:47:46 <ais523> I don't think land /searching/ is at all common in Standard at the moment
20:47:59 <ais523> most of the cards that get land out of your deck just look at the top few cards
20:48:15 <ais523> I guess that's technically a search
20:49:47 <wob_jonas> I'm just not familiar with standard or modern enough, so I never noticed that
20:50:00 <wob_jonas> I know there used to be good land searchers in some formats
20:50:25 <wob_jonas> and I thought there'd be at least slightly less broken land searchers later
20:50:25 <ais523> `card-by-name Rampant Growth
20:50:26 <HackEso> Rampant Growth \ 1G \ Sorcery \ Search your library for a basic land card and put that card onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ MI-C, TE-C, 6E-C, 7E-C, 8ED-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, M10-C, HOP-C, M12-C, MM2-C, C15-C, C16-C, DDS-C
20:50:30 <wob_jonas> I guess that's a stupid assumption
20:50:38 <ais523> Rampant Growth is currently considered too good for Standard
20:50:40 <wob_jonas> yes, that's why I said non-green deck
20:50:51 <wob_jonas> that one is good, and there's some weaker ones
20:50:53 <ais523> even though it's allowed a power level boost for being green
20:51:17 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Terramorphic Expanse
20:51:18 <HackEso> Terramorphic Expanse \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Terramorphic Expanse: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ TSP-C, 10E-C, M10-C, HOP-C, ARC-C, M11-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, MMA-C, C13-C, C14-C, C15-C, C16-C, PCA-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDE-C, DDH-C, DDN-C, H09-C
20:51:28 <wob_jonas> while that one is too bad for tournament?
20:51:29 <ais523> `card-by-name Evolving Wilds
20:51:30 <HackEso> Evolving Wilds \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Evolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ ROE-C, CMD-C, DKA-C, M13-C, C13-C, M15-C, C14-C, DTK-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, BFZ-C, C15-C, CN2-C, C16-C, AKH-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDH-C, DDK-C, DDN-C, DDO-C, DDP-C
20:51:44 <ais523> wow, I knew Evolving Wilds had been ridiculously reprinted
20:51:52 <ais523> not Terramorphic too, though
20:52:09 <ais523> they're used occasionally when the alternatives are really bad
20:52:16 <ais523> but they're not considered good cards
20:52:36 <ais523> hmm, what are the most recent cards in the bot?
20:52:40 <wob_jonas> wait, what's the difference between those two?
20:53:01 <wob_jonas> why are their current oracle text (not in the bot) different?
20:54:27 <ais523> one has a full stop where the other has a comma, with grammar adjusted to fit
20:54:36 <wob_jonas> who's the head rules manager now? I'm cursing them
20:54:51 <wob_jonas> they generally look for this sort of thing
20:55:13 <ais523> (I think I've spelled that correctly?)
20:55:16 <ais523> it was Matt Tabak for ages
20:55:40 <wob_jonas> luckily they're doing good job in the background so most of the time I don't have to think of their names
20:57:04 <wob_jonas> so land searching, Terramorphic is not good enough for tournament?
20:58:30 <wob_jonas> (in the kitchen table, it's good enough only for a very few decks, and even then it's not a very good card, just an acceptable one.)
20:58:38 <ais523> it's good enough for most decks if it's in your opening hand, but it's too slow if you draw it later in the game
20:58:49 <ais523> err, tapped lands generally are, I mean
20:59:08 <ais523> Terramorphic in particular has the additional problem that you often don't know what color you'll be missing when you draw it early
21:01:41 <wob_jonas> I play with Kodama's Reach in a big ramp and it's quite good, but only if I already have four or more green one-mana accelerators in the deck so you can almost always cast it in turn 2, and I really want a ramp, and this strategy only works in a close to mono-green deck.
21:01:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55793&oldid=55783 * Chris Pressey * (+376) /* Undefined behavior */
21:02:13 <wob_jonas> green has a lot of good one-mana accelerators, both for kitchen table and for tournament
21:02:22 <wob_jonas> I don't have the tournament versions of course
21:02:56 <ais523> `card-by-name Veteran Explorer
21:02:57 <HackEso> Veteran Explorer \ G \ Creature -- Human Soldier Scout \ 1/1 \ When Veteran Explorer dies, each player may search his or her library for up to two basic land cards and put them onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched his or her library this way shuffles it. \ WL-U, CMD-U, C16-U
21:03:10 <ais523> this is apparently the only one-mana accelerator that's good enough for Legacy
21:03:36 <ais523> unless you count Lotus Petal
21:03:57 <ais523> …I assume Sol Ring is banned? otherwise I can't see why people wouldn't use it
21:04:37 <wob_jonas> but Llawnowar Elves, Arbor Elves, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, are cheap cards I have, and the first two are really good
21:04:44 <wob_jonas> oh yeah, Sol Ring is reprinted cheap too now
21:05:46 <wob_jonas> there's Springleaf Drum but it's limited, it only works second turn if you can play a one-mana creature, any why would you play a one-mana creature that doesn't produce mana in turn 2 in a ramp deck?
21:06:29 <HackEso> Abundant Growth \ G \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Abundant Growth enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land has "{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool." \ AVR-C, EMA-C
21:06:48 <wob_jonas> apparently this is the new improved version, because the old ones were good only in some decks, and not really for early
21:06:54 <wob_jonas> you almost always wanted the elves instead
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21:11:31 <ais523> anyway, I'm not 100% sure I've written about Omnitell correctly because I've never played it, but I have watched videos of other people playing it
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21:14:12 <wob_jonas> so there's the 3 or more variants of Llawnowar Elves, then Arbor Elves that I like but it only works for me because I do play lots of Forests in those decks, it won't work in tournament; then the Birds of Paradise which I think was tournament card but now rotated from standard; and off-color ones like Elves of Deep Shadow, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Noble H
21:14:12 <wob_jonas> ierarch, of which at least the last was used in tournaments I think
21:14:32 <wob_jonas> which are green mana producers for playing in turn 1 and producing mana in turn 2
21:15:33 <ais523> Arbor Elves is frequently played in Standard when it's legal
21:15:48 <ais523> I think it's played in Modern, too, but only in Elf tribal decks
21:15:51 <wob_jonas> how about the Llanowar Elves variants?
21:16:02 <ais523> those are played too; Arbor Elf is slightly better though
21:16:09 <wob_jonas> they're good for me, because they're fast and versatile, go in many different decks that have green
21:16:27 <ais523> unless you have lots of green-producing non-Forests
21:17:04 <wob_jonas> why is Arbor Elves good in Standard? oh right, you said they still have dual lands with land types
21:17:55 <wob_jonas> I mean, I play at least 12 basic lands among at least 22 lands in almost all constructed decks, but that's not what a trournament player would do
21:18:15 <wob_jonas> and even in the kitchen table, I have played against many-colored decks with almost no basic lands
21:19:02 <ais523> land hate is really bad at the moment, and has been for ages
21:19:28 <ais523> so there's basically no reason to play basics if you have an alternative
21:19:42 <wob_jonas> I guess I do this because all the dual land card that often etb untapped are expensive, so I haven't bought most of them
21:19:42 <ais523> they're trying to give the dual lands drawbacks instead but they're never large enough
21:20:03 <wob_jonas> there are a few affordable ones now though, so I will buy when I return to M:tG, because they're versatile
21:20:14 <wob_jonas> they're still expensive, but they're versatile, go in many decks, so I'll probably buy some
21:21:20 <wob_jonas> iirc they recently printed one that etb untapped in multiplayer games, that seems almost like cheating
21:21:57 <ais523> `card-by-name Crumble to Dust
21:21:58 <HackEso> Crumble to Dust \ 3R \ Sorcery \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ Exile target nonbasic land. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with the same name as that land and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ BFZ-U
21:22:15 <ais523> that's the only good anti-land card that's been Standard-legal any time recently, and I think it's rotated out
21:22:24 <ais523> also it's not good enough to play except against decks that rely on a single powerful land
21:23:07 <ais523> which means that decks that are just playing nonbasic lands for fixing have nothing to worry about, the opponent doesn't have any viable ways to take advantage of that
21:23:25 <wob_jonas> are they trying to break all non-trournament formats with that?
21:23:27 <ais523> it isn't the first though
21:23:31 <ais523> `card-by-name Command Tower
21:23:31 <HackEso> Command Tower \ Land \ {T}: Add to your mana pool one mana of any color in your commander's color identity. \ CMD-C, C13-C, C15-C, C16-C, CMA-C, C17-C
21:24:14 <wob_jonas> ok, but this is a full cycle of five so you'll have 8 in wedge 3 colored decks
21:24:31 <wob_jonas> at least the ones they print for Modern have some moderation
21:24:31 <ais523> command tower is basically a gold land with no drawback if you're playing Commander
21:24:40 <ais523> as mana outside the color identity isn't useful anyway
21:24:49 <wob_jonas> I'm not playing commander, but I am often playing multiplayer with four players
21:25:07 <wob_jonas> and it can happen only in the very late game that there are only two players in play and the game hasn't ended
21:25:10 <ais523> "this land is broken in format X" is still broken, though
21:25:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55794&oldid=55793 * Chris Pressey * (+932) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
21:25:18 <wob_jonas> at that point I don't care if my eighth land etb tapped
21:25:22 <ais523> `card-by-name City of Ass
21:25:22 <HackEso> City of Ass \ Land \ City of Ass comes into play tapped. \ {T}: Add one and one-half mana of any one color to your mana pool. \ UNH-R
21:25:28 <ais523> also completely broken :-(
21:25:39 <wob_jonas> they don't have that sort of broken dual land for Modern or any recent Standard, right?
21:25:42 <ais523> even back when it made you mana burn for a half, it was broken
21:25:48 <wob_jonas> even the Ravnica duals aren't that good
21:26:20 <ais523> most broken lands in Modern are the Khans fetchlands
21:27:27 <wob_jonas> yes, City of Ass is broken too, but... at least that has a silver border, and mentions half mana which you normally can only play with the strange un-rule that you can choose half numbers every time you have to choose a number, and that rule breaks the format even with only ordinary modern cards, eg. you can distribute half of deathtouch damage to
21:27:47 <ais523> huh, I'm trying to remember a name of one of the cards in the cycle, and I keep remembering Zendikar fetchlands instead
21:28:00 <wob_jonas> so even without any cards, the half numbers un-rules are brokenm
21:28:49 <wob_jonas> and have been in every version of the rules I can remember, because all the versions of the combat damage rule had some exception at least for deathtouch, even if nothing else
21:29:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55795&oldid=55794 * Ais523 * (+487) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ computability
21:30:03 <wob_jonas> how big a print will Battlebond have? it's not standard legal
21:30:21 <ais523> until people stop buying it, I think
21:30:24 <wob_jonas> I wonder if those rares will become cheap
21:30:33 <ais523> but they'll only print a fairly small quantity to begin with
21:30:36 <ais523> so it depends on how successful it is
21:30:57 <wob_jonas> most rare lands aren't, but this seems a special interest one
21:31:12 <wob_jonas> most good lands are expensive, which makes sense
21:31:58 <wob_jonas> as in, I build mostly from cheap cards, and want to buy more cheap cards,
21:32:09 * ais523 eventually gives up and looks them up
21:32:14 <ais523> `card-by-name bloodstained mire
21:32:15 <HackEso> Bloodstained Mire \ Land \ {T}, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Bloodstained Mire: Search your library for a Swamp or Mountain card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library. \ ONS-R, KTK-R, EXP-M
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21:32:25 <wob_jonas> but I might buy some medium price dual lands or similar if they seem so versatile I can put them in many decks
21:32:31 <wob_jonas> usually I just use cheap lands for that too
21:33:19 <wob_jonas> in formats with decent lands with nonbasic types that is
21:33:48 <ais523> it's good even if you're fetching basics
21:34:03 <ais523> in fact, in Legacy, they're sometimes played even in monocolor decks
21:34:09 <ais523> for the deck thinning + free shuffle
21:34:25 <ais523> (this is at least partly because most Legacy decks don't care about their opponent's life total)
21:34:44 <ais523> when you're trying to win quickly, winning from 12 and from 20 are approximately equally easy
21:34:50 <ais523> unless you're playing Burn
21:35:00 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's what Terramorphic is good for too, and some more expensive (2 or 3 mana) green stuff, but it's only like one or two decks where I need the free shuffle
21:35:13 <wob_jonas> and yes, the deck thinning is useful too
21:35:31 <ais523> with Terramorphic it's not free, it effectively costs {1} :-D
21:35:43 <ais523> and that's too much for a shuffle even if you aren't paying a card for it
21:36:10 <wob_jonas> one or two or three mana up front, and you get back zero or one immediately
21:37:10 <ais523> well, you're basically paying for three things: color fixing, ramp, and the shuffle
21:37:17 <ais523> cards that give only a subset of those effects have to be cheaper
21:37:40 <ais523> so, for example, color fix + ramp + shuffle (all three) is Rampant Growth, which costs two mana and a card
21:37:47 <ais523> `card-by-name Rupture Spire
21:37:48 <HackEso> Rupture Spire \ Land \ Rupture Spire enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Rupture Spire enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you pay {1}. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ CON-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, C13-C, C16-C, PCA-C, CMA-C, DDH-C, H09-C
21:38:01 <ais523> a perfect color fix through perfect turns costs an effective {2}
21:38:19 <ais523> whereas a "pick a color now" and a shuffle costs an effective {1}, that's Terramorphic
21:41:33 <wob_jonas> does Modern have something like Krosan Wayfarer, which is "put a land card from your hand into play, right now" effect for {G} on a sorcery?
21:41:52 <ais523> `card-by-name Summer Bloom
21:41:53 <HackEso> Summer Bloom \ 1G \ Sorcery \ You may play up to three additional lands this turn. \ VI-U, P1-R, 6E-U, S99-R, 9ED-U
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> I know they have the same but the land tapped, but that's much weaker
21:42:00 <ais523> but it ended up getting banned
21:42:20 <ais523> there are probably weaker versions of the same effect that are still legal
21:42:22 <wob_jonas> because that helps with the fixing
21:42:34 <HackEso> Elvish Pioneer \ G \ Creature -- Elf Druid \ 1/1 \ When Elvish Pioneer enters the battlefield, you may put a basic land card from your hand onto the battlefield tapped. \ ONS-C, 8ED-C
21:43:16 <wob_jonas> but that isn't such a broken effect
21:43:18 <ais523> Summer Bloom was abused with nonbasics though
21:43:29 <wob_jonas> Krosan Wayfarer doesn't say "tapped"
21:43:34 <ais523> oddly, the "tapped" on Elvish Pioneer makes it stronger rather than weaker in that deck
21:43:36 <HackEso> Krosan Wayfarer \ G \ Creature -- Human Druid \ 1/1 \ Sacrifice Krosan Wayfarer: You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield. \ JUD-C
21:43:48 <ais523> `card-by-name Amulet of Vigor
21:43:49 <HackEso> Amulet of Vigor \ 1 \ Artifact \ Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control, untap it. \ WWK-R
21:43:49 <wob_jonas> why would I want my land required tapped?
21:44:11 <ais523> the thing is that if you get multiple Amulet of Vigor triggers, you can tap the land in between…
21:44:28 <ais523> the deck was called Amulet Bloom (i.e. Amulet of Vigor and Summer Bloom)
21:44:34 <ais523> it played them together with lands that bounce themselves
21:44:39 <ais523> `card-by-name Selesnya Sancturary
21:45:00 <ais523> `card-by-name Dimir Aqueduct
21:45:01 <HackEso> Dimir Aqueduct \ Land \ Dimir Aqueduct enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Dimir Aqueduct enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {U}{B} to your mana pool. \ RAV-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, MM2-U, C16-U, PCA-C, C17-U
21:45:17 <ais523> like that (except green)
21:45:24 <ais523> `card-by-name Selesnya Sanctuary
21:45:24 <HackEso> Selesnya Sanctuary \ Land \ Selesnya Sanctuary enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Selesnya Sanctuary enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {G}{W} to your mana pool. \ RAV-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, C13-C, MM2-U, C16-U, PCA-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDG-C
21:46:29 <wob_jonas> it's still not the same of course, because if I have Krosan Wayfarer, then I sometimes have to play it first turn if I don't have a Llanowar/etc, so I won't have a chance for an Amulet of Vigor yet, so Krosan Wayfarer is still better in eteranl I think
21:46:42 <ais523> so say you have Amulet of Vigor in play, you can play a Selesnya Sancturary, tap it for {G}{W} before it bounces itself, use that to cast Summer Bloom, then play the Selesnya Sancturary three more times
21:47:00 <ais523> that gives you six mana on turn 2 (usually), which you can use to play Primeval Titan or some similar finisher
21:47:13 <wob_jonas> yes, the rav common duals, I play those
21:47:39 * ais523 wonders why they can't spell "sanctuary"
21:48:10 <ais523> I keep adding an extra r
21:48:53 <HackEso> Summer Bloom \ 1G \ Sorcery \ You may play up to three additional lands this turn. \ VI-U, P1-R, 6E-U, S99-R, 9ED-U
21:49:43 <wob_jonas> I know the rav dual lands have their uses, but they're usually not that much broken
21:49:53 <ais523> `card-by-name Primeval Titan
21:49:54 <HackEso> Primeval Titan \ 4GG \ Creature -- Giant \ 6/6 \ Trample \ Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. \ M11-M, M12-M, MM2-M
21:50:18 <ais523> the trick is to search out a land that can give it haste :-)
21:50:23 <ais523> (remember that the Amulet will untap them)
21:50:31 <wob_jonas> hopefully that means only the Amulet is crazy, not all ten rav common dual lands
21:50:46 <ais523> the Magic devs think that the rav common duals are too strong
21:50:58 <wob_jonas> I think they're strong too, but not tournament strong
21:51:01 <ais523> I think so, not 100% sure on that
21:51:27 <ais523> you're basically playing {1} to "search out a land" (the land you bounced)
21:51:46 <wob_jonas> isn't it just the rare duals or the Signets or something that they think are slightly too strong?
21:52:29 <ais523> "search your library for a basic land card, place it into your hand, shuffle your library, then draw a card" would be the approximate equivalent of that effect if it were a sorcery rather than a land
21:52:38 <ais523> and that effect surely costs more than {1}
21:52:55 <wob_jonas> I guess they no longer print other lands that etb tapped and give two mana, they never printed versions that give RR or something, only the dual ones, and only that cycle
21:53:17 <wob_jonas> but I just thought there just aren't any reasonable versions they could invent other than this one cycle of ten
21:53:58 <wob_jonas> and they didn't want to print mono-colored ones, because they rarely have non-basic land slots for that sort of luxury that doesn't fix mana, like only once in every two years or so
21:54:55 <ais523> my attempt at designing that: "~ enters the battlefield tapped. If ~ would untap, instead you may pay {1}, if you do untap it. T: add GW to your mana pool."
21:55:11 <wob_jonas> what? how is that equivalent? why are you even searching for basic lands?
21:55:23 <wob_jonas> the common rav duals don't do any searching
21:55:28 <ais523> they bounce a land to your hand
21:55:36 <wob_jonas> yes, but doesn't search for any color
21:55:54 <ais523> I decided that giving you two specific colors was similar to searching for one
21:56:07 <ais523> although not identical, they will be of similar strength in three-color decks
21:56:24 <wob_jonas> I think fixing five colors is stronger than fixing two, and wizards seems to think so too, at least on dual lands
21:56:33 <wob_jonas> triple lands and five-colored lands always seem weaker
21:56:56 <ais523> most 5c lands actually released are terrible, though
21:57:01 <ais523> `card-by-name Mana Confluence
21:57:01 <HackEso> Mana Confluence \ Land \ {T}, Pay 1 life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ JOU-R, EXP-M
21:57:07 <ais523> `card-by-name Cavern of Souls
21:57:07 <HackEso> Cavern of Souls \ Land \ As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature spell of the chosen type, and that spell can't be countered. \ AVR-R, MM3-M
21:57:13 <ais523> those are the only two that are commonly played
21:57:29 <ais523> (although there's a nerfed version of Cavern now which also see play; Cavern is totally bonkers)
21:57:38 <wob_jonas> no, there's a better one, but deck-specific
21:58:00 <ais523> there's one that generates any color but it can only be used for creatures, ditto one like that for artifacts
21:58:06 <HackEso> Ancient Ziggurat \ Land \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature spell. \ CON-U, H09-U
21:58:08 <ais523> the former is sometimes played in exclusively-creatures decks
21:58:53 <ais523> being able to generate any color for artifacts isn't all that useful an effect ;-)
21:58:59 <wob_jonas> works even in decks with only 32 creatures, not 36
21:59:13 <ais523> only some of them, you need to get mana for activated abilities from somewhere
21:59:31 <wob_jonas> but yes, I understand the point, it's worse late game if you aren't playing a deck where you want to cast a creature card every turn
22:00:20 <wob_jonas> you're right, Cavern of Souls is better in general
22:00:26 <ais523> one of the strongest decks I ever built wanted to play multiple creatures on most turns
22:00:31 <ais523> so it'd love Ancient Ziggurat
22:00:48 <ais523> but it was a tribal deck, so Cavern of Souls would have been even better
22:00:50 <wob_jonas> yes, I have some such decks, and want to build some, and have played against such decks
22:00:54 <ais523> (obviously it'd just play 4 of both though)
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22:05:01 <wob_jonas> back in your text, "Mountain (the basic land for red)" -- wait, there are M:tG players who don't know that? even beginners?
22:06:00 <wob_jonas> remove that parenthetical then, I think
22:06:18 <ais523> it's more focusing on why we pick that card
22:06:20 <ais523> we want a red basic land
22:06:24 <ais523> and Mountain happens to be a red basic
22:06:32 <ais523> I guess we could use Snow-covered Mountain instead? :-D
22:06:48 <wob_jonas> yeah, you could. but it's not cheap
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22:07:23 <ais523> it is compared to most of the cards in that deck :-D
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22:08:29 <wob_jonas> just seems expensive compared to the plain Mountain I guess
22:09:02 <wob_jonas> which is annoying because of the rule that you can actually use more than 4 of them
22:09:16 <wob_jonas> you could, but you'd have to buy them thenm
22:09:42 <ais523> that was also a rule during Coldsnap (i.e. you can run as many as you like but you have to draft them)
22:11:01 * ais523 is imagining what it would be like if that was the rule in Constructed too
22:11:23 <Lymia> Thy also did that in BfZ, didn't they
22:11:29 <ais523> people would join Coldsnap drafts just to draft all the snow lands so that they could legally be played
22:11:42 <wob_jonas> and now they printed a sixth such crazy basic land too, one that you could have more than four of, but you have to buy more than four
22:11:49 <wob_jonas> and I think there are like two creature too
22:12:26 <wob_jonas> um, isn't that still the rule in constructed?
22:13:39 <wob_jonas> I have snow lands, but that's only because I have bought a Coldsnap theme deck, and you can only get 4 of the 5 colors that way
22:14:02 <HackEso> Wastes \ Basic Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ OGW-C
22:14:11 <wob_jonas> so I have 11 snow swamps and 13 snow islands, which is the annoying number, 13 swamps and 11 islands would be so much better
22:14:27 <wob_jonas> (one of those is random, they give one random snow land in foil as a bonus card)
22:14:51 <wob_jonas> (or maybe always a foil snow island? I don't recall. the main deck has only 23 I think.)
22:15:02 <ais523> to be fair, Wastes is normally only played in Commander (where having basic lands can be important and some decks can't legally run any of the other five)
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22:15:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, and some very strange constructed decks. and the two (?) basic creatures are even worse.
22:16:17 <wob_jonas> you only play the creatures in decks that have like at least 20 of them, but possibly 100
22:16:53 <wob_jonas> you know, decks with mostly two cards, one basic land and one basic creature
22:17:08 <ais523> I just checked a database of tournament results, no deck containing Wastes has scored highly enough to be recorded in any tournament in any of the formats it records (Standard, Modern, Legacy)
22:17:11 <wob_jonas> the archetype from back before the 4 card limit
22:17:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: but snow lands would actually be used, because they're almost always better than ordinary basics, so you'd play them in any deck instead of basics if you have even one card that cares about them
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22:18:16 <ais523> oh, it tracks a few other formats too (e.g. Vintage and Pauper)
22:18:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: but how many years back does it go?
22:19:08 <wob_jonas> it's not just current standard, right?
22:20:02 <ais523> since before Wastes was printed
22:20:25 <ais523> I'm not sure how far before but that doesn't really matter, as it can't have placed well in a tournament before it was printed
22:21:11 <ais523> in terms of the snow-covered lands, they only appear to be good in two decks, one of which is red, one of which is blue/red
22:21:18 <ais523> so only the island and mountain are played
22:21:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, the island is the best
22:22:09 <ais523> wouldn't the mountain be best on that theory?
22:22:32 <wob_jonas> I assumed the island would be the best because blue has the best cards that care about snow
22:22:50 <HackEso> Skred \ R \ Instant \ Skred deals damage to target creature equal to the number of snow permanents you control. \ CSP-C
22:22:55 <wob_jonas> maybe I just don't know the red ones
22:23:06 <ais523> that's the only colored cares-about-snow that's tournament playable
22:23:16 <ais523> `card-by-name Scrying Sheets
22:23:16 <HackEso> Scrying Sheets \ Snow Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {1}{S}, {T}: Look at the top card of your library. If that card is snow, you may reveal it and put it into your hand. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.) \ CSP-R
22:23:30 <ais523> that's playable if you're running a snow landbase
22:24:43 <wob_jonas> Viscerid Drone would be decent in limited, but not in constructed
22:26:10 <ais523> `card-by-name Mouth of Ronom
22:26:11 <HackEso> Mouth of Ronom \ Snow Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {4}{S}, {T}, Sacrifice Mouth of Ronom: Mouth of Ronom deals 4 damage to target creature. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.) \ CSP-U
22:26:29 <wob_jonas> and there are a few more ones like that that would be good in limited, and give some extra if you have snow mana
22:26:30 <ais523> that's run in the U/R/S deck because it happens to combo really well with the rest of the deck
22:26:58 <ais523> but wouldn't be playable just for the card, it's only there because the deck is built around damage-to-creature effects and is running Skred because of that
22:27:44 <wob_jonas> mind you, there are a few snow hosers, sort of like how there are non-basic-hosers for legacy
22:27:59 <wob_jonas> so everyone playing snow basic lands wouldn't be stable anyway
22:28:33 <ais523> err, nonbasic hosers are really common in Legacy
22:28:35 <ais523> `card-by-name Wasteland
22:28:36 <HackEso> Wasteland \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}, Sacrifice Wasteland: Destroy target nonbasic land. \ TE-U, EXP-M, EMA-R \ \ Wasteland Scorpion \ 2B \ Creature -- Scorpion \ 2/2 \ Deathtouch \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ AKH-C \ \ Wasteland Strangler \ 2B \ Creature -- Eldrazi Processor \ 3/2 \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ When Wasteland Strangler enters the battlefield, you may put a card an opponent owns from exi
22:28:42 <HackEso> Stifle \ U \ Instant \ Counter target activated or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.) \ SCG-R, CNS-R, MPS_AKH-S
22:29:08 <ais523> (admittedly Stifle being a nonbasic hoser is a bit of a special case, as it doesn't do it directly; it destroys lands by countering abilities with a cost of "Sacrifice ~")
22:29:36 <wob_jonas> snow hosers aren't, there's only like two or three that are any good, plus a few combos but all need cards from those two sets
22:29:51 <ais523> ice ace, alliances, coldsnap ;-)
22:30:11 <wob_jonas> alliances doesn't have any cards mentioning snow, does it?
22:30:18 <wob_jonas> it's in the block, but doesn't have cards
22:30:46 <ais523> `card-by-name storm elemental
22:30:47 <HackEso> Storm Elemental \ 5U \ Creature -- Elemental \ 3/4 \ Flying \ {U}, Exile the top card of your library: Tap target creature with flying. \ {U}, Exile the top card of your library: If the exiled card is a snow land, Storm Elemental gets +1/+1 until end of turn. \ AI-U, ME2-U
22:31:18 <ais523> homelands doesn't have any though
22:31:42 <ais523> viscerid drone is also from alliances
22:32:31 <ais523> there's also gargantuan gorilla, and winter's night; the latter might or might not be a snow hoser
22:32:34 <ais523> `card-by-name winter's night
22:32:34 <HackEso> Winter's Night \ RGW \ World Enchantment \ Whenever a player taps a snow land for mana, that player adds one mana to his or her mana pool of any type that land produced. That land doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step. \ AI-R, ME2-R
22:32:38 <wob_jonas> four alliances cards mention snow in fact
22:33:14 <wob_jonas> I've even seen two of them in the precon deck, only in the precon they're reprinted with coldsnap symbol and modern frame
22:33:43 <ais523> the precon reprints were given the set symbol from the original set but a modern frame
22:33:46 <wob_jonas> apparently I'm familiar with the cards but not with those old expansions and didn't realize that's where those two came froem
22:33:51 <ais523> I have a dark ritual with a modern frame but an ice age set symbol
22:34:40 <wob_jonas> it's only two cards and I don't notice their exp symbol when I'm scanning through my cards? ok
22:35:31 <wob_jonas> Alliances is one of the worse among the old sets, so I think I just don't recognize the mana symbol
22:36:58 <wob_jonas> there are just too many exp symbols now, I can't keep them all in my head, and that one is one I never see because it's such a bad old block
22:37:08 <esowiki> [[Undefined behavior]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55796&oldid=35566 * Ais523 * (+1113) expand
22:37:47 <esowiki> [[Turing-completeness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55797 * Ais523 * (+29) Redirected page to [[Turing-complete]]
22:37:48 <wob_jonas> I was hoping they'd realize that and start to use either just one exp symbol per block and fewer distinct exp symbols for non-modern/non-standard products, or some systematic symbols for some series, but no
22:38:17 <wob_jonas> except perhaps for the core sets for six years
22:38:23 <ais523> there was a row about the Dominaria expansion symbol
22:38:39 <ais523> it's in reverse video (on the commons) because Wizards were worried that it looked too much like the Darksteel set symbol
22:38:48 <ais523> but now people are having problems distinguishing commons from uncommons
22:39:07 <wob_jonas> and I think a few of these new low power low number of copies intro set products
22:40:07 <ais523> the intro products share an expansion symbol with the most recent standard-legal set
22:40:18 <ais523> err, at least the Planeswalker decks
22:40:22 <wob_jonas> they at least added a three-letter code that you can look up now, but there's still a random three-letter code for ever standard-legal expansion that you'd have to remember just like the mana symbol
22:40:22 <Lymia> The symbols are still thematically linked, aren't they?
22:40:26 <ais523> I'm not sure what expansion symbol the free packs use
22:40:33 <Lymia> Look at Zendikar block's symbols
22:40:49 <ais523> Lymia: they got simpler over time, then they got more complex again
22:40:59 <wob_jonas> Lymia: in some blocks they were, but the thematic is different in every block, so that only helps if you actually remember any of the three symbols from that one block
22:41:02 <ais523> a symbol like Dragon's Maze is surprisingly detailed
22:41:12 <wob_jonas> Lymia: but good luck with that after blocks
22:41:24 <ais523> some symbols are easy to remember, like Eldritch Moon
22:41:27 <wob_jonas> Lymia: even then it only worked for like every second or third blocks at random
22:41:36 <ais523> but that one's an exception
22:41:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: some symbols are easy to remember because I see them a lot
22:42:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: how is the Eldritch Moon symbol special?
22:43:02 <ais523> you can tell what the set's about just by looking at it
22:43:11 <ais523> which makes it easy to work out what set it belongs to
22:43:16 <wob_jonas> if there's any that's easy to remember, those were the core set ones I think
22:43:31 <wob_jonas> plain numbers or roman numbers from fifth to M2015
22:43:33 <ais523> they're reintroducing core sets (a new one coming out in a few weeks)
22:43:47 <ais523> M2019 is using the same symbol scheme as just before they stopped
22:44:00 <wob_jonas> yes, that one is good, except for the tiny numbers since M2010
22:44:25 <wob_jonas> but at least they're really easy to remember
22:44:37 <wob_jonas> that will be one per year in standard, right? good
22:44:49 <ais523> well, as long as you remember that M2010 is 11th edition, despite the name
22:45:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: or the 12th if you count alpha and beta separately
22:45:15 <wob_jonas> they differ in like two cards technically
22:45:36 <ais523> there are other sets with similar issues that aren't counted as different sets
22:45:44 <wob_jonas> I know I never actually see anything older than Revised but still, if you want to number them
22:45:58 <ais523> there was one set where only half the commons were available in any given pack…
22:46:12 <wob_jonas> I think I have seen a few "cheap" Unlimited cards
22:46:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: so we count Beta as the first core set?
22:46:47 <wob_jonas> because Alpha is the messed up one?
22:46:57 <wob_jonas> but Alpha is still the most expensive set ever
22:47:01 <ais523> or, rather, Alpha is an erroneous print of Beta
22:47:13 <ais523> misprints are normally more valuable than the non-misprinted card…
22:47:32 <ais523> if Alpha were more printed than Beta, then Beta would be more expensive
22:48:12 <wob_jonas> so Alpha is no longer a core set, despite that it's the first ever set, and I thoguht the first products were only core sets (reprint only) and expansion sets, from before they even invented compilation sets and casual sets and stuff
22:48:19 <ais523> no, Alpha is part of Beta
22:48:28 <ais523> collectively called "Limited Edition"
22:48:41 <ais523> you can tell this because Beta cards have black borders, which at the time indicated that it was the first printing of the card
22:48:58 <wob_jonas> right, but don't Alpha cards have black borders too?
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22:49:15 <ais523> I mean, Alpha and Beta both contain "first edition" copies of the same card
22:49:19 <ais523> thus must be the same edition
22:49:59 <wob_jonas> when did they first put reprints in black-bordered expansion sets?
22:50:11 <ais523> whereas Unlimited has white borders, showing that the cards are reprints
22:50:34 <ais523> it's complex, I think before tenth edition they always changed the art
22:50:40 <ais523> so that the card could be argued to be not technically a reprint?
22:51:47 <ais523> but there were definitely reprints in black-bordered sets before tenth, e.g. Birds of Paradise is in the original Ravnica (between 9th and 10th)
22:52:25 <ais523> really the whole border color thing became a mess fairly quickly
22:52:28 <ais523> which is why they got rid of it
22:53:07 <wob_jonas> but also good thing they allow more reprints, and new cards in core sets since M10
22:53:24 <wob_jonas> means too many standard-legal cards
22:53:44 <wob_jonas> they keep inventing new ways to cheat the quota every two yeras
22:54:11 <ais523> well, they intended Standard to rotate faster
22:54:15 <wob_jonas> so the number of new cards keep increasing
22:54:33 <ais523> they thought that would improve the gameplay (and it'd also reduce the number of cards available)
22:54:34 <wob_jonas> even without standard, just more new unique cards all the time
22:54:43 <ais523> but people were unwilling to buy Standard cards if they wouldn't be legal for very long
22:54:53 <wob_jonas> they deny that, but actually keep increasing the numbers in various sneaky ways
22:55:40 <wob_jonas> although some of them aren't modern legal, they're almost all eternal legal and casual legal
22:55:48 <wob_jonas> so it's hard to follow the card pool
22:56:28 <wob_jonas> there are new cards in casual products, new cards in commander products every year, new cards in core sets, mythic rares mean 15 extra new cards per set since Alara or whatever it was,
22:56:52 <ais523> I think the addition of mythics actually reduced the set size
22:56:56 <wob_jonas> I think there will now be four expert expansions printed per year, not two, plus the core sets
22:57:01 <wob_jonas> or will there be only three plus a core set now?
22:57:04 <ais523> sets are larger nowadays but it's because they increased the number of uncommons
22:57:45 <ais523> (each individual rare is more common now than before mythics were added, which greatly reduces the number of rares you need to make the probabilities add to 1)
22:58:00 <wob_jonas> oh wait, Origins is a core set too, right? that's basically M2016 with a funny name
22:58:10 <ais523> yes, Origins is a core set
22:58:29 <ais523> or at least it was in the core set "slot" and had a similar purpose
22:58:29 <wob_jonas> I like core sets, I was sad when they abolished them, and was afraid of abolishing the block system because that would mean four new sets per year,
22:58:49 <wob_jonas> will it be three standard-legal expoansions plus a core set now, or four plus a core sets?
22:59:04 <ais523> the abolishment of core sets demonstrated to me that Magic had a direction different from the one I wanted, but it was a symptom, not a cause
22:59:20 <wob_jonas> and there's always like two legacy-legal casual expansion per yera now, with new cards: yearly commander and one extra per year that keeps changing
22:59:28 <ais523> basically my vision of Magic was as a game which rarely had major changes, just kept getting progressively improved
22:59:37 <ais523> but Wizards see it as a game that relies on frequent shake-ups
22:59:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: what? didn't you realize that way before they abolished core sets?
23:00:11 <Lymia> Without major shakeups, they'll run out of design space, I think
23:00:16 <wob_jonas> oh, I guess they announced that like a year before Origins or more
23:00:27 <ais523> the major shakeups use up design space way faster than incremental improvements would
23:00:29 <wob_jonas> so it's one year earlier than I thought that you're talking about
23:00:55 <ais523> I'm the sort of person who'd like to see each set being 90% similar to the one before, with only balance changes
23:01:16 <ais523> but I doubt that'd make enough money to keep Wizards happy
23:01:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and they're very bad for a casual player who has years when he doesn't even look at M:tG
23:01:33 <wob_jonas> you come back a year later and the whole system has changed, not just one new block and one core set now
23:02:06 <ais523> with Battle for Zendikar they changed a huge number of things all at once
23:02:07 -!- Kai_Bruneji has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/).
23:02:11 <ais523> which will make it hard to see which ones worked and which ones didn't
23:02:42 <wob_jonas> and even when it isn't, they print like twice as many distinct cards a year as they used do, if you care about reprints changing the price and non-tournament-staple cheap cards too and want to look through them to find the common and uncommon gems
23:02:43 <ais523> it doesn't help that that block was the worst block they've produced in years…
23:03:54 <wob_jonas> tenth ed and M2010 both changed a lot of things too at the same time
23:04:38 <ais523> then more recently they've had a rash of balance issues
23:04:56 <ais523> BfZ block's main issue was color balance, e.g. green was basically unplayable
23:05:04 <wob_jonas> such as introducing modern, introducing yearly core sets (instead of one per two year) with new cards, a whole rewrite of the comp rules, a big change in the comp rules respectively
23:05:06 <ais523> but at least that doesn't ruin Standard
23:05:33 <wob_jonas> and that border thing and more reprints in standard-legal expansions I guess
23:05:46 <ais523> more recently they've had huge problems trying to prevent single decks or cards being dominant
23:05:59 <ais523> there have been so many card banned from standard over the past few sets…
23:06:02 <wob_jonas> wait, when did they start the more reprints in standard-legal sets? was it in zendikar? or later?
23:06:17 <ais523> it was meant to be when they got rid of core sets
23:06:23 <ais523> as they had to put the reprints somewhere
23:06:58 <ais523> I'm trying to remember all the standard bans recently
23:08:20 <ais523> there are seven cards banned from Standard right now (with people calling for an eighth), and some of the cards that rotated out at the last rotation were banned at the time, too
23:08:54 <wob_jonas> I think it's actually Coldsnap, one year before Tenth ed, when they decided they can get away with some new way to sneak print more cards every two years if they disguise it well somehow
23:09:00 <ais523> https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Timeline_of_DCI_bans_and_restrictions#2017
23:09:06 <wob_jonas> later they got so good in it that they're doing it every year, then more
23:10:00 <ais523> nine total Standard bans since the start of 2017
23:10:14 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:10:37 <wob_jonas> first M2010 and yearly core sets with new cards to make up for the supposed "reduced set sizes" that they announced at Time Spiral (right after the huge but Tenth Ed which is reprint-only but standard-legal), then with casual expansions with eternal-legal cards, and often standard-legal extra stuff
23:11:17 <wob_jonas> that's when they realized they can do this without being too obvious that it's something they repeat every year
23:11:39 <ais523> the most recent Standard ban before that was two cards in 2011, before that was eight in 2005 (five of which were a cycle) and one in 2004, before that was eight in 1999 and two in 1998
23:11:46 <wob_jonas> now we have yearly Commander sets for eternal too
23:11:56 <ais523> so the latest screwup balancing Standard is the worst since 1999…
23:12:01 <wob_jonas> and lots of reprints of old casual cards to make them cheaper
23:12:15 <wob_jonas> sometimes reprints of good eternal cards like Sol Ring too
23:12:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: the cycle is the artifact lands in Mirrodin?
23:13:37 <wob_jonas> and Skullclamp or that blade or sword thingy that often freely sacrifices itself or whatever
23:14:44 <wob_jonas> but yes, they had very few standard bans, often none for years, and also very few bans in limited or block-constructed
23:15:00 <wob_jonas> obviously they still avoid bans in limited, because they suck
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23:15:25 <ais523> 2011 was the dominance of Caw-Blade
23:15:37 <ais523> the card banned from it were Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic
23:16:31 <wob_jonas> Walking Atlas was an errata that was immediate, before the card was even released. that was very rare, and still is. at least that one isn't for power level.
23:17:00 <wob_jonas> they didn't even have oracle texts the last time they'd need that, when they misprinted that mana symbol in some card back in some very old expansion
23:17:25 <HackEso> Marath, Will of the Wild \ RGW \ Legendary Creature -- Elemental Beast \ 0/0 \ Marath, Will of the Wild enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters on it equal to the amount of mana spent to cast it. \ {X}, Remove X +1/+1 counters from Marath: Choose one -- \ Put X +1/+1 counters on target creature. X can't be 0. \ Marath deals X damage to target creature or player. X can't be 0. \ Create an X/X green Elemental creature token. X can't be 0
23:17:40 <ais523> the "X can't be 0" was on-release errata
23:18:07 <ais523> the third mode turned out to be pretty broken without that :-)
23:18:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah yes, Jace. he's the Twilight Sparkle of M:tG, gains a new major power every year. M:tG now has nine Jaces, highest count planeswalker ever, and a surprisingly high number of them were tournament-relevant
23:19:11 <wob_jonas> and like two so broken they dominate a format or is banned
23:19:47 <ais523> there are two Jaces so broken they dominated a format, but I think only JtMS got banned
23:19:54 <ais523> `card-by-name Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
23:19:55 <HackEso> Jace, Vryn's Prodigy \ 1U \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 0/2 \ {T}: Draw a card, then discard a card. If there are five or more cards in your graveyard, exile Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control. \ [Front face. Transforms into Jace, Telepath Unbound.] \ ORI-M
23:20:10 <ais523> that one dominated a format too, but it never got banned AFAIR
23:20:17 <wob_jonas> there are also nine Chandras, but they don't get that powerful in tournaments, only in the story
23:20:34 <ais523> it was a running joke how many bad Chandras got printed
23:20:40 <ais523> although Wizards managed to print a tournament-viable one eventually
23:22:17 <Lymia> why is the bullet for choose one showing as a half-width katakana ki in IRC
23:22:32 <wob_jonas> and there are seven Ajani, 6 Garruk, 6 Gideon, 7 Liliana, 8 Nissa (wtf, I didn't follow the story, when did she do that?),
23:22:46 <Lymia> Probably because I have znc configured to parse as sjis if utf-8 fails
23:22:53 <Lymia> Why isn't HackEso sending UTF-8
23:23:13 <wob_jonas> but I distinctly remember when some people played with 8 Jaces (4 each of two different ones) in Standard
23:23:26 <wob_jonas> and that was early, in like the first three jaces
23:23:46 <ais523> what halfwidth characters does shift-jis have? ascii is halfwidth, and presumably it has all the katakana
23:23:53 <ais523> does it have hiragana too, or is that only fullwidth?
23:24:14 <ais523> wob_jonas: that doesn't really count, though, Jace Beleren was only played to legend-rule the opponent's JtMS
23:24:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: ask oren or zzo38 about that, I don't know anything about shift-jis
23:24:33 <Lymia> Why do that with the original jace rather than new jace
23:24:40 <Lymia> jace, the wallet sculpter
23:24:51 <Lymia> Was it a budget deck thing?
23:25:01 <ais523> Lymia: you were playing 8 Jaces, your own JtMS, and JB in order to legend-rule the opponent's
23:25:21 <ais523> you wouldn't want to legend-rule the opponent's with a JtMS if you could help it as you'd want to play the JtMS afterwards
23:25:32 <ais523> but the legend rule has changed now (and the planeswalker equivalent of it, too)
23:25:41 <ais523> so that sort of trick doesn't work any more
23:25:51 <wob_jonas> I mean, playing wastelands to destroy any of 10 to 20 dual lands relevant in standard, that's fair game. but playing to kill one card? crazy
23:26:07 <ais523> that's how centralised the metagame was
23:26:18 <Lymia> MTG has a sideboard
23:26:20 <ais523> and explains why JtMS and Stoneforge Mystic ended up getting banned
23:26:28 <wob_jonas> playing to kill any artifact, or any red card, or any green card, or any enchantment, or any zero-mana spell, or any one-mana spell, etc, that's also fair
23:26:34 <wob_jonas> but playing to kill one card is crazy
23:26:58 <Lymia> Was this standard?
23:27:01 <wob_jonas> Lymia: yes, but this was 8 jaces in main deck
23:27:16 <wob_jonas> not all decks perhaps, but some tournament standard decks
23:27:25 <wob_jonas> it also had 8 other planeswalkers iirc
23:27:33 <wob_jonas> but that's not as strange as 8 jaces
23:27:38 <ais523> `card-by-name Creeping Tar Pit
23:27:39 <HackEso> Creeping Tar Pit \ Land \ Creeping Tar Pit enters the battlefield tapped. \ {T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool. \ {1}{U}{B}: Creeping Tar Pit becomes a 3/2 blue and black Elemental creature until end of turn and can't be blocked this turn. It's still a land. \ WWK-R
23:27:52 <ais523> ^ genuinely played in Legacy as a JtMS-specific counter
23:28:04 <ais523> at least it doesn't hurt your deck much if the opponent doesn't play JtMS
23:28:24 <wob_jonas> I mean, even 8 Llanowars wouldn't look that strange, and these days you could play them (I only have one of the other ones)
23:28:32 <wob_jonas> it's just 8 Jaces that looks strange for some reason
23:28:40 <ais523> llanowar elf, fyndhorn elf, elvish mystic
23:28:43 <Lymia> Original Jace's still playable, isn't it?
23:28:55 <ais523> Lymia: right, Jace Beleren isn't a terrible card
23:29:44 <wob_jonas> I only have lots of Llanowar Elves and 1 Fyndhorn so far
23:29:46 <ais523> also boreal druid, avacyn's pilgrim, noble hierarch
23:30:00 <ais523> (variants that produce other types of mana)
23:30:11 <ais523> elves of deep shadow, too, but that has a drawback
23:30:37 <ais523> and deathrite shaman (not modern-legal but only because it was banned)
23:30:41 <Lymia> My first deck involved 4x Plated Geopeed/4x Steppe Lynx/4x Adventuring Gear
23:32:08 <ais523> wow, we've got rather offtopic from discussing Omni-Tell
23:33:07 <wob_jonas> I play Arbor elf a lot because it comes up for three reasons: (1) Imperiosaur, (2) I enchant land with auras, especially Elvish Guidance in the elf deck, and get double the lots of mana and go off, great finisher while still a Llanowar effectively, (3) If I can untap the Arbor Elves, I get an extra mana for free, that used to exist but only on card
23:33:07 <wob_jonas> s in 3 mana and up, Arbor Elves is the first at 1 mana and otherwise good card.
23:33:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: I know. that's deliberate.
23:33:34 <wob_jonas> I can read Omni-Tell later, when we're not having a conversation, and I'm too tired to do anything useful
23:33:50 <ais523> I didn't really mean off-topic
23:33:53 <ais523> more that it had drifted a long way
23:34:23 <wob_jonas> it's just that you're always active on IRC when I'm not there or busy
23:35:07 <wob_jonas> timezone problem or something, despite that you live in Europe
23:35:20 <ais523> I live in Europe but mostly sleep on a US schedule
23:35:23 <wob_jonas> I usually sleep earlier than this weekdays, for work
23:35:34 <wob_jonas> I should be sleeping now actually, but meh
23:35:48 <wob_jonas> and you are only in on weekdays evening US time, and even from that only late
23:36:18 <ais523> well, IRC tends to distract me from work (as it is at the moment!)
23:36:26 <ais523> I was doing an OS update yesterday
23:36:45 <ais523> which was pretty useful as it gave me a lot of esoinspiration (I can't do much but talk during those)
23:36:47 <ais523> it didn't go too well, though
23:36:53 <ais523> lots of things are still broken
23:37:46 <wob_jonas> Lymia: you started at Zendikar? I see
23:38:01 <Lymia> face is the place *nod nod*
23:38:02 <wob_jonas> I hear that was a surprisingly good set, so that makes sense
23:39:59 <wob_jonas> I started at Coldsnap (actually played the first time at Dissension, which is one set before, but bought the first card of my own when Coldsnap was out)
23:40:08 <ais523> good sets tend to bring in new players for the set afte
23:40:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that must have been it for me
23:40:29 <ais523> Avacyn Restored is considered a fairly bad set but was very popular
23:40:35 <wob_jonas> the ravnica BLOCK was good, not just Dissension specifically
23:40:50 <ais523> huh, I /finished/ at Coldsnap, pretty much
23:40:59 <ais523> I abandoned Magic during Lorwyn as I wasn't enjoying it at all
23:42:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: I paused or stopped buying cards shortly before New Phyrexia (not because of that set, just at)
23:43:12 <wob_jonas> because we could no longer play regularly, and always play so rarely that it's not worth my time to figure out which cards to buy
23:43:28 <wob_jonas> but I'm considering to get back at some point, casually, and buy more cards
23:43:31 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55798&oldid=55791 * HereToAnnoy * (-17) more typos/clarification
23:43:52 <wob_jonas> as in, a casual way, not for tournaments
23:44:52 <wob_jonas> it didn't help that New Phyrexia was when I was still in university, so relatively poor when it comes to my own money, with my parents and the state supporting my education but I don't want to spend *that* on M:tG
23:45:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Equipage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55799 * Ais523 * (+614) /* Minimized purely concatenative languages */ new section
23:45:38 <wob_jonas> compared to being not rich but at least having my own money I earn myself from a job, which means I can spend it on objectionable stuff, and M:tG is one of those
23:46:40 <ais523> I don't want to spend money on M:tG any more
23:46:42 <ais523> I think it's being mismanagd
23:46:44 <wob_jonas> \oren\, zzo38: "<ais523> what halfwidth characters does shift-jis have? ascii is halfwidth, and presumably it has all the katakana"
23:46:57 <wob_jonas> pinging them because they're the ones on this channel that I think might know this off-hand
23:47:00 <ais523> hmm, I guess I could just look it up
23:47:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm good at this sort of stuff, for anything relevant on the west, but I don't know the oriental ones like shift-jis and kanjis and fullwidth graphics characters etc
23:47:58 <ais523> looks like half-width katakana and a few half-width punctuation marks
23:48:11 <ais523> also it doesn't have all of ASCII
23:48:16 <ais523> it's missing backslash and tilde
23:49:11 <wob_jonas> right, I guess makes sense, some of the ISO-646 replace it too, but only together with at least six others, not alone
23:49:36 <wob_jonas> caret and underscore and backtick are the ones I thought you can lose alone or in pair without losing any other ascii
23:49:47 <wob_jonas> oh right, backslash for the yen sign
23:49:59 <ais523> oddly, it has the C0 control codes (including DEL), but doesn't obey Ecma-35 rules because it uses some of the C1 bytes as the leading byte of a two-byte sequence
23:50:21 <wob_jonas> I think that appeared even in some early 8-bit no-shift character set
23:51:16 <ais523> …after thinking about it, Ecma-35 is pretty ridiculous, isn't it?
23:51:21 <ais523> no wonder terminal encoding is so difficult
23:51:58 <ais523> nah, C1s are commonly used, it's just that they're written with the 7-bit encoding
23:52:12 <ais523> so that they don't clash with a character encoding that uses the C1s for illict purposese
23:52:37 <ais523> ESC [ is a 7-bit encoding of CSI, for example, that's really commonly used
23:52:41 <wob_jonas> also, somehow today there are very few places that filter out \x00 or \x7f, and very few programs that consider it whitespace
23:53:11 <ais523> interestingly, CSI is in Unicode but terminals don't recognise it when it uses a multibyte encoding
23:54:01 <pikhq> Yeah, it encodes to two bytes, and terminals usually have the VT-100 state machine not do any complex character decoding beforehand?
23:54:09 <ais523> IRC should use that for color codes really :-P
23:54:28 <wob_jonas> IRC has its own strange mirc color codes system that's horrible
23:54:52 <ais523> it could without any incompatibilities
23:55:07 <pikhq> Yeah, but that's not what's done.
23:55:09 <wob_jonas> really horrible, much more so than the VT-100 state machine, because it's small but has bad rules, can't encode certain combos because it's missing terminators
23:55:34 <ais523> stick a zero-width space in there
23:55:35 <wob_jonas> unless you color the character before that or put some other formatting on the digit too
23:55:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, that works now that everyone interprets every irc channel as utf-8 too
23:56:10 <wob_jonas> people started that only like 5 years ago
23:56:28 <Lymia> [color]04[digit] works in the IRC scheme
23:56:31 <pikhq> 10 years ago it was less common, but still a thing.
23:56:50 <Lymia> At least, Hexchat's implementation
23:57:03 <wob_jonas> when did the admins of freenode/#ubuntu-hu stop insisting that they're encoded iso-8859-2 and anyone who types utf-8 is warned and then quieted?
23:57:31 <wob_jonas> I still remember that change, it was great, but not when it was
23:58:46 <wob_jonas> that was the last channel where anyone pretended that irc doesn't use utf-8 in typical channel messages
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23:59:44 <wob_jonas> it's now a de-facto standard that messages to public are utf-8 by default, althoguh you can still encode any byte string except for three bytes in IRC messages internal between agreeing clients
00:00:46 <wob_jonas> so you can send broken utf-8, but everyone interprets what you send as utf-8 by default, and may complain about broken messages if you send non-utf8 bytes, or may ignore it silently but think you're doing something wrong with your client config
00:01:09 <wob_jonas> before that people assumed every channel may have a different ascii-compatible encoding
00:01:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:02:31 <wob_jonas> even though clients mostly just supported one encoding, but that's like how every computer and operating system supported one encoding back before about windows 95, the one byte encoding or shifting encoding that your region uses.
00:02:39 <wob_jonas> region and operating system brand.
00:03:31 <wob_jonas> I think it was web browsers that made computers start to be able to at least regularly convert from any input encoding
00:04:07 <wob_jonas> but even then it was a lot of time until other applications could do that, together with windows getting modified to be based on early unicode and utf-16
00:04:41 <wob_jonas> but even then for a while programs couldn't just decode an encoding, just the one "operating system default code page" that's activated or sometyhign
00:05:04 <wob_jonas> or two, one for windows and one in terminals only
00:06:35 <ais523> on UNIXalikes, the way it was meant to work is that the user would set LC_CTYPE, and all programs would assume input was in that encoding and produce output in that encoding
00:07:00 <ais523> which works fine for pipes, less well for files (unless you try to ensure all your files are in the same encoding), and not really over networks
00:07:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, but they didn't have any unicode encoding to convert to internally
00:07:08 <ais523> (although network traffic should have a specified encoding)
00:07:11 <wob_jonas> so programs could barely implement that
00:07:22 <wob_jonas> they only knew which characters are whitespace and all that
00:07:26 <ais523> they had wchar_t, just didn't know what it meant
00:07:40 <ais523> actually wcwidth is kind-of broken
00:07:56 <ais523> true width calculation is more complex than you'd expect
00:08:11 <wob_jonas> that means a programs could tell letters from punctuation with locale-aware isupper/islower, but not much else
00:08:24 <ais523> for libuncursed2 I've worked out an algorithm that correctly calculates the width of well-formed Unicode
00:08:31 <ais523> but can produce bizarre results on malformed input
00:09:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: and the difference isn't even something about following new unicode standards quickly even if the user doesn't update their libc every year and so doesn't get a newer data backing the wcwidth, right?
00:09:50 <wob_jonas> it's not just tables for newer characters, I mean
00:11:03 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's because multiple adjacent codepoints can merge into a single grapheme
00:11:28 <wob_jonas> yeah, in retrospect now I'm glad we got rid of that and everyone uses utf-8 or utf-16 and unicode ONLY, but it took lots of years to get there
00:11:37 * ais523 is careful to avoid the word "character" when this level of distinction matters, as both "codepoint" and "grapheme" are possible concepts that correspond to it
00:11:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, that's why you have to pull in a full libicu for unicode stuff
00:12:41 <wob_jonas> which can do normalization, or all those computations on any utf-16-nativeendian string without visible normalization, or a few of those computations on utf-8 strings as a bonus (the main interface is utf-16 native).
00:14:20 <ais523> well, libuncursed2 uses unicode, not utf-8
00:14:30 <ais523> strings are stored as ucs-4 internally
00:14:50 <ais523> but utf-8 is used for communicating with applications
00:14:59 <wob_jonas> and also localization-aware soring and uppercasing (turkish i) and all that crazy stuff if you want, but WITHOUT unix locales needed anywhere.
00:15:04 <ais523> utf-8 is a good transmission and storage format but bad for other things
00:15:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, that's why libicu and python and many other libraries use utf-16-native when they want anything unicode or localization-related
00:15:53 <Lymia> What operators is UTF-8 bad for?
00:16:03 <ais523> IMO Unicode should have used different codepoints for the two Turkish Is than for the Latin I
00:16:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: that wouldn't have worked either
00:16:36 <ais523> Lymia: finding the nth codepoint of a string
00:16:50 <Lymia> ... when is this an operation you do?
00:16:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: presumably because of compatibility with legacy encodings that don't distinguish
00:16:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: then on a turkish machine people wouldn't be able to type an ascii i from the keyboard, or only with some really special key combo that most users don't use
00:17:16 <ais523> Lymia: well in libuncursed2 we have an array of grapheme clusters, each of which is an array of codepoints
00:17:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: and then they can't use normal forms that aren't unicode-aware but would accept simple ascii strings with an i
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00:18:00 <ais523> indexing within the clusters is important
00:18:09 <ais523> so that's taking the nth codepoint of a string, effectively
00:18:35 <Lymia> Rust, at least, gets away just fine with UTF-8 strings internally. In my experience, indexing by a codepoint in particular is never what you actually want except in rare cases.
00:18:49 <ais523> it's what you want if you have a single grapheme
00:18:51 <Lymia> You want to index a particular known point in the string, in which case, a byte index suffices.
00:19:01 <ais523> normally you want to index by grapheme or by visual width
00:19:16 <ais523> but if you only have the one grapheme then a codepoint is probably what you're looking for when you're indexing
00:20:12 <Lymia> When would you need to say "I want the second codepoint period in O(1) time"?
00:22:12 <ais523> when you're trying to determine which of the many sorts of grapheme clusters you have
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00:22:47 <ais523> e.g. if it's a Korean syllable, it follows different rules from if it's an emoji
00:22:57 <Lymia> You can't do that with an one-pass iterator?
00:23:28 <ais523> well, I'm assuming you found the cluster itself via indexing an array of grapheme clusters, so now you have the cluster
00:23:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: my opinion is that with the turkish I, which was btw established shortly after Kemal Atatürk so definitely by the second world war, we're screwed and we would have been screwed anyway no matter what we do, because it's the one special case you need for language-dependent case folding, which would otherwise not be a thing and programs didn't
00:24:40 <wob_jonas> there's really nothing you can do about it that doesn't require that special case in programs.
00:25:02 <ais523> I'm OK with a special case, but would like a special case that actually solves the problem
00:25:06 <wob_jonas> you need language-dependent processing for lots of other operations, like collation and search and comparison
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00:25:17 <wob_jonas> but not for case folding if it weren't for the turkish i
00:25:19 <ais523> if you just have a "uses turkic rules" versus "uses latin rules" global switch, you can't casefold a string that mixes English and Turkish
00:25:48 <Lymia> Anyway, my experience in Rust has been that, even with very complex tasks like parsing/etc, the UTF-8 encoding has not been an issue.
00:25:49 <ais523> so the string itself needs inbound signalling as to what language it's in
00:26:01 <wob_jonas> make the Turkish i a differen code point? then Turkish users can't use any ascii program without workarounds
00:26:12 <ais523> you need this for Japanese versus Chinese too; it's OK to say "these ideograms are the same" but the two languages need to render them slightly differently
00:26:15 <wob_jonas> when they communicate to ascii programs, they need to filter their text through a normalization or something
00:26:24 <Lymia> Because, in practice, all the complaints about there being no O(1) indexing are rendered moot by... indexing by byte index instead of some concept of character indexes.
00:26:40 <Lymia> ais523, cjk now takes 2x the codepoints
00:26:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, font rendering too, not just Chinese but Cyrillic has the same problem
00:27:12 <ais523> Lymia: this is actually the solution some Japanes users use
00:27:26 <ais523> however it would probably be better to have some sort of bracketing, like there is for bidi
00:27:35 <wob_jonas> therea are two to five different cyrillic scripts (I can't tell how many) that should have been encoded separately because they're never mixed, but they didn't for compatibility with legacy 8-bit encodings,
00:28:11 <wob_jonas> like the ascii hyphen or quotation mark
00:28:23 <ais523> yes, I was going to say, this is a problem even in ASCII
00:28:31 <ais523> at least they added a whole set of digits
00:28:36 <wob_jonas> only they never invented the non-compatibility characters then, because every program and font accepted only the unicode compatibility cyrillic
00:28:39 <ais523> many typewriters didn't have a 0 or 1
00:28:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: and the hyphens and quotation marks, but those at least mostly have a character
00:29:20 <ais523> hyphen-minus is a mess of a character
00:29:25 <wob_jonas> but for a while some fonts didn't have a character for some of those
00:29:43 <wob_jonas> anyway, it's very late and I gtg now
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00:30:08 <ais523> it's rare to use a hyphen before a digit and fairly rare to use a minus before a letter, so perhaps they should have been split in some automated way?
00:30:20 <ais523> people don't have much trouble using a separate character for dash, after all
00:37:50 <ais523> but I don't even know how to type a minus sign
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01:22:43 <zzo38> You have a Abelian group with binary operator # and identity @ and one more binary operator $ satisfying: a$(b#c) = (a$b)$c (a#b)$c = (a$c)#(b$c) a$@ = a @$a = @ What is a mathematical structure called if it satisfies this? (I know at least one example, but what is it called in general?)
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02:32:08 <esowiki> [[Undefined behavior]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55800&oldid=55796 * Oerjan * (-1) typo
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02:50:54 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/fM-x/text
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02:52:12 <imode> I like how I can exploit the concurrency of string rewriting with this approach. though there's probably a better way of doing it.
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02:53:06 <imode> you can, for example, interleave the current global state between every two symbols and have it propagate from either end.
02:59:59 <imode> i.e, you'd have one cursor per two symbols of space, ideally, including the start and end markers.
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03:11:04 <imode> I like this because I can have "builtins" that behave like hidden rules, like arithmetic ops that are done in one logical step, as well as other computationally heavy things or I/O.
03:14:16 <imode> the issue is flow control, and the many apparent ways that that's possible. fork-join-style (I guess?) control is demonstrated above.
03:14:55 <imode> which is useful for sorting here, but I really want to abstract upwards towards random-access.
03:15:19 <imode> which makes me think I have to think more parallel than anything.
03:16:20 <imode> though this begs the question, what's underneath string rewriting? multiset rewriting? it looks a lot like linear logic, but I'm still not sure how you'd simulate things like a TM's tape. I guess godel numbering helps...
03:17:06 <imode> that's "too low", though, and I feel you wouldn't get the naive concurrency that you would with traditional string rewriting.
03:19:19 <imode> it'd be interesting to be proven wrong, though...
03:20:03 <imode> if you were to simulate a tape, you'd have to jump through a hoop to either something akin to a counter machine, or give every tape location a unique element of the multiset, with the multiplicity of that element being the symbol stored.
03:20:45 <imode> which, I mean, whatever, but this means in order to do something halfway useful with it, you need to plan out your storage requirements ahead of time, and the ruleset would be _complicated_.
03:23:02 <imode> at that point you've gone below the minimum structure required for "convenience".
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04:37:26 <esowiki> [[English Binerdy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55801 * Iamcalledbob * (+1814) Created page with "'''English Binerdy''' was created by [[user:Iamcalledbob]] to make [[Binerdy]] easier to program. ==Instructions== English Binerdy supports the following instructions: {| c..."
04:59:35 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55802&oldid=55752 * Iamcalledbob * (+14) /* Obfuscation */
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05:28:48 <esowiki> [[Unhappy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55803 * Iamcalledbob * (+833) Created page with "==:(== The title is "Unhappy" because of tecnical limitations. ==Overview== Commands start with or. The commands should be one line. Program runs every command one-by-one. =..."
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06:06:06 <alercah> imode: generalized monoid rewriting?
06:10:05 <imode> alercah: can you clarify?
06:10:31 <zzo38> Do you like ZZT game? Now I completed made up XYZABCDE.ZZT game.
06:11:26 <esowiki> [[Unhappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55804&oldid=55803 * Iamcalledbob * (-111) /* Overview */
06:12:35 <esowiki> [[Unhappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55805&oldid=55804 * Iamcalledbob * (-27) /* Commands */
06:13:19 <imode> alercah: why monoids and not semigroups?
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06:35:07 <esowiki> [[Unhappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55806&oldid=55805 * Iamcalledbob * (-2) /* Examples */
06:35:41 <esowiki> [[Unhappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55807&oldid=55806 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Examples */
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07:34:28 <wob_jonas> great! they silently released svn 1.10 in 2018-04 and I never noticed:
07:35:34 <wob_jonas> it's not in debian stable obviously, I haven't noticed so I haven't installed manually, I have installed it at work but I'm working only since 2018-05 after a long hiatus between 2015-02 and 2015-05,
07:35:50 <wob_jonas> at work I've installed latest svn a months ago but didn't notice the version number until today,
07:36:52 <wob_jonas> and their compatibility policy (summarized in the release notes http://subversion.apache.org/docs/release-notes/1.10 ) is actually so generous that you can almost always silently upgrade just the software, and get some but not all the new features immediately,
07:38:05 <wob_jonas> and every minor version bump adds cool new features, and the only compat that you sometimes notice immediately is that the checkout (working copy) format changes completely between some but not all minor version upgrades (like every second minor version upgrade or so, but not deterministically)
07:38:42 <wob_jonas> and this time it didn't change between 1.10 and 1.9 which is why I didn't even notice that I'm not running 1.9 until now
07:40:28 <wob_jonas> apache svn http://subversion.apache.org/ is great software, and I can really recommend it especially to the sort of people like me or zzo38 who are annoyed by a lot of user-facing software interface changing seriously like every two or three years now, and even a lot of backend libraries changing every five years so all the tech you learn is obsole
07:40:29 <wob_jonas> te in five years even if there's technically compatibility guarantees
07:41:13 <wob_jonas> and most technology is unrecognizable every ten years with these occasional updates
07:42:14 <wob_jonas> svn is one of those software like sqlite that has had strong compatibility guarantees and only kept improving
07:45:43 <wob_jonas> and svn stability goes back to version 1.0 in 2004, its C api is forward compatible since then, and existing repositories keep working forever in a compatible way (you lose some new features if you don't upgrade repository, but don't win), so you can mostly upgrade seamlessly, the only caveats are that
07:48:46 <wob_jonas> (a) working copy format sometimes changes incompatibly, so you may have to recreate checkouts, you can't upgrade them from older formats, but even that only changed like five or six times since svn 1, and 2. (b) you can't downgrade or used mixed versions of svn on a client because of this,
07:49:41 <wob_jonas> (c) you can't always easily create new repositories in formats readable by the oldest servers, so on a server you can't downgrade minor versions ever if you have created a repository
07:50:48 <wob_jonas> That's slightly worse than sqlite, which still has an option to create a database that sqlite 3.0 and every version since can read, even though creating such repositories isn't the default
07:52:49 <wob_jonas> It's interesting that svn 1.0 and sqlite 3.0, the respective first version that offered strong compatibility guarantees decades into the future, were both released in 2004.
07:55:18 <wob_jonas> and for all the incompatibilities, they detail them nicely in release notes
07:55:58 <wob_jonas> some of them are even repeats: this release notes says
07:56:05 <wob_jonas> "Since "1.10.0" is smaller than "1.9.0" when considered as ASCII strings, scripts that compare Subversion versions as strings may fail to correctly determine which of "1.10.0" and "1.9.0" is the more recent one. Such scripts should be changed to compare Subversion version numbers correctly:"
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13:20:20 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55808&oldid=55802 * Ais523 * (-14) Undo revision 55802 by [[Special:Contributions/Iamcalledbob|Iamcalledbob]] ([[User talk:Iamcalledbob|talk]]): Small isn't particularly hard to read as esolangs go; don't assume everything was written for obfuscation just because it uses only a few symbols
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14:17:20 <oerjan> i suppose it wouldn't do for agatha to visit britain and *not* have a murder mystery.
14:17:57 <Taneb> They do seem to happen a lot here
14:18:02 <Taneb> Almost as much as Denmark
14:20:09 <oerjan> oh, i never got into that nordic stuff.
14:20:33 <oerjan> (not that i'm into crime mysteries in general either)
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15:12:43 <Lymia> https://play.rust-lang.org/?gist=cb7244f41c040db41fc447d491031263&version=nightly&mode=debug
15:13:04 <Lymia> Here's some weirdness with Rust's type system at compiletime and two nightly features
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16:03:27 <oerjan> int-e: hey, it was obvious in the _previous_ comic, and pretty much telegraphed since a page after the first mention of the guy.
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19:08:57 <zzo38> I found a problem with the documentation of SQLite. The type for the xCreate/xConnect methods of virtual tables says that the "argv" argument is "char**argv" but actually the correct type is "const char*const*argv".
19:16:28 <zzo38> Did you use SQLite?
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21:05:57 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55809&oldid=55315 * ZM * (+37)
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21:39:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GiratronKode * New user account
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21:51:31 <zzo38> The address has changed because a new modem has been installed.
22:05:43 <esowiki> [[Equipage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55810&oldid=55763 * Ais523 * (+2734) /* Computational class */ proof via Minsky machines
22:06:01 <esowiki> [[Equipage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55811&oldid=55810 * Ais523 * (-12) /* External resources */ recat, computational class is now known
22:07:36 <esowiki> [[Equipage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55812&oldid=55811 * Ais523 * (+8) /* See also */ add 7, which is very similar to Equipage but uses a different set of commands
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22:18:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55813&oldid=55656 * GiratronKode * (+234)
22:19:21 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55814 * GiratronKode * (+3702) Created page with "Hello, I'm GiratronKode and this is my first attempt to do an esolang, please have that in mind. ==Usage== InfSt has 3 commands: ''search stones'' => searches for an infini..."
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00:25:08 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55815&oldid=55809 * Oerjan * (+0) typ(ewriter)o
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00:56:58 <esowiki> [[Equipage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55816&oldid=55812 * Oerjan * (+0) Check your category speeling, folks!
00:59:23 * oerjan is half tempted to add yafgclist, as irregular as it's been recently
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01:00:34 <shachaf> does hierjan write in hieroglyphs
01:21:06 <oerjan> hichaf. no, in hittite cuneiform hth
01:21:42 <shachaf> did you take 21 minutes to think of that pun
01:26:59 <oerjan> no, just to notice you had spoken hth
01:27:36 <oerjan> my irc awareness really went downhill after i started using the web browser full screen
01:44:58 <zzo38> I found the error of SQLite documentation that I have reported have now been corrected.
01:45:29 <zzo38> oerjan: How much space is taken up by other stuff when it is not full screen?
01:54:58 <oerjan> zzo38: previously i used to have just enough spare width to have the left part of the putty window show up to 3 characters of irc nicks.
01:55:12 <oerjan> behind the browser window.
01:55:29 <oerjan> which is enough to notice if things are moving there.
01:56:42 <oerjan> oh and a little spare width to the left of putty to see the most important desktop icons.
01:58:04 <zzo38> I have no desktop icons on my computer, so it does not take up so much space; only the two pixel window border is to the left.
01:58:37 <oerjan> i rarely use the desktop icons these days, most programs are on the menu bar.
01:59:48 <oerjan> or whatever it's actually called, the bottom one.
02:00:38 <zzo38> If you mean the Start menu on Windows, then I know (although it can be moved to the top or left or right, too). I am on Linux and I have no menu bar on my computer either.
02:02:30 <oerjan> i don't mean the start menu, i mean the bar of icons on the same row as it
02:03:10 <oerjan> um, i guess the start menu icon itself is one.
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02:21:55 <zzo38> Well, actually they put the start menu, window list, system tray icons, and date/time, all on the same row.
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02:59:19 <imode-desktop> alercah: can you clarify on what you said last night? what is "generalized monoid rewriting"?
03:03:00 <imode-desktop> sans the empty string strings are semigroups iirc. so I guess what I'm doing could be classified as semigroup rewriting..?
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08:11:08 <esowiki> [[2.+-]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55817 * Iamcalledbob * (+417) Created page with "==2.+-== 2.+- is a variation of [[Deadfish]]. It has the following commands: {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Result |- | 2 || Square the accumulator |- | . || Print the a..."
08:13:26 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55818&oldid=54946 * Iamcalledbob * (+81) /* Implementations */
08:21:59 <esowiki> [[2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55819&oldid=24984 * Iamcalledbob * (+39)
08:29:10 <esowiki> [[Around and around, sleeping sound]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55820 * Iamcalledbob * (+686) Created page with "'''Around and around, sleeping sound''' is the name of a 2D programming language made by [[User:Iamcalledbob]], on June 16, 2018. It only has 4 commands: {| class="wikitable"..."
08:31:20 <esowiki> [[Around and around, sleeping sound]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55821&oldid=55820 * Iamcalledbob * (+3)
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10:47:24 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55822&oldid=52760 * Iamcalledbob * (+16)
10:50:16 <esowiki> [[1st-Worst]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55823 * Iamcalledbob * (+88) Created page with "==1st-Worst== Try to make this programming language have as many bad things as possible."
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11:06:01 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55824 * Iamcalledbob * (+1588) Created page with "==Syntax== Turing is designed to have a very lightweight, readable, intuitive syntax. Here is the entire [[Hello World!]] program in Turing with [[syntax highlighting]]: '''..."
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11:07:20 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55825&oldid=55790 * Iamcalledbob * (+13) /* T */
11:09:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55826&oldid=55825 * Iamcalledbob * (+22) /* T */
11:15:15 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55827&oldid=55824 * Iamcalledbob * (-42) /* Syntax */
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11:16:39 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55828&oldid=55827 * Iamcalledbob * (-66) /* Syntax */
11:18:35 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55829&oldid=55828 * Iamcalledbob * (-7) /* Syntax */
11:20:47 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55830&oldid=55829 * Iamcalledbob * (+43) /* Syntax */
11:21:23 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55831&oldid=55830 * Iamcalledbob * (-52) /* Syntax */
11:23:51 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55832&oldid=55831 * Iamcalledbob * (+46) /* Syntax */
11:26:01 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55833&oldid=55832 * Iamcalledbob * (-25) /* Syntax */
11:26:50 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55834&oldid=55833 * Iamcalledbob * (-92) /* Syntax */
11:28:15 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55835&oldid=55834 * Iamcalledbob * (-164) /* Syntax */
11:32:04 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55836&oldid=55835 * Iamcalledbob * (+81) /* Syntax */
11:32:21 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55837&oldid=55836 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Syntax */
11:32:38 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55838&oldid=55837 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Syntax */
11:32:50 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55839&oldid=55838 * Iamcalledbob * (+3) /* Syntax */
11:34:18 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55840&oldid=55839 * Iamcalledbob * (-12) /* Syntax */
11:35:05 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55841&oldid=55840 * Iamcalledbob * (+23) /* Syntax */
11:35:40 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55842&oldid=55841 * Iamcalledbob * (+24) /* Syntax */
11:37:32 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55843&oldid=55842 * Iamcalledbob * (+96) /* Syntax */
11:38:01 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55844&oldid=55843 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Syntax */
11:38:14 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55845&oldid=55844 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Syntax */
11:40:33 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55846&oldid=55845 * Iamcalledbob * (+14) /* Syntax */
11:40:52 <esowiki> [[Turing(Programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55847&oldid=55846 * Iamcalledbob * (-14) /* Syntax */
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11:54:06 <esowiki> [[Glass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55848&oldid=53686 * Iamcalledbob * (+184) /* Hello, world! program */
12:13:16 <esowiki> [[Glass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55849&oldid=55848 * Fizzie * (-60) /* Hello, world! program */ (_o) is a single command, better not to split it across lines
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14:59:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55850&oldid=53996 * Iamcalledbob * (+60) /* List of candidates */
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15:27:44 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55851&oldid=55818 * Oerjan * (-80) /* =2.+- */ Remove, o doesn't print a number
15:29:48 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55852&oldid=55822 * Oerjan * (+0) Put digits first
15:32:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Turing(Programming language)]] to [[Turing (Iamcalledbob)]]: Bad spacing, also the other Turing is already a PL, technically
15:33:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55855&oldid=55826 * Oerjan * (-4) /* T */ Renamed page
15:34:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Turing(Programming language)]]": Broken name
15:37:13 <oerjan> hm apparently renaming and then removing redirect wipes it out of recent changes.
15:38:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Oerjan * restored "[[Turing(Programming language)]]": Keep it in recent changes, maybe
15:39:16 <oerjan> hm, nope not reversible
15:40:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Turing(Programming language)]]": That didn't work
15:42:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Turing]] to [[Turing (Joshop)]]: Disambiguation
15:44:57 <esowiki> [[Turing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55858&oldid=55857 * Oerjan * (+114) disambig page
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16:28:49 <esowiki> [[User:GiratronKode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55859 * GiratronKode * (+182) Created page with "Hi, I'm GiratronKode, I dont know what you're doing here but, the list below is a list of my esolangs: * [[InfSt]] And there is no more to say, bye ''viewer''! Category:P..."
16:35:42 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55860&oldid=55814 * GiratronKode * (+226)
16:36:05 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55861&oldid=55860 * GiratronKode * (-1)
16:39:23 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55862&oldid=55861 * GiratronKode * (+41)
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17:14:30 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55863&oldid=55862 * GiratronKode * (+2)
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18:28:23 <imode-desktop> so now that I've gotten a reasonable hold on string rewriting... I wonder if I can revisit my idea for a term rewriting system that has no variables.
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18:32:10 <rdococ> Looks like the variable went out of scope.
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18:33:32 <imode-desktop> my issue with term rewriting systems is that it implies this secondary structure to store variable bindings.
18:34:32 <imode-desktop> variable lookups and storing that structure severely complicates things. so I wonder if it can be excluded.
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18:43:01 <imode-desktop> if anybody has any resources they could point me to, I'll pay you in thanks. :P
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19:23:23 <imode-desktop> I think if you did remove variables, you'd end up with something akin to a string rewriting system over term-like strings.
19:23:36 <imode-desktop> because you could only examine the terms directly next to you.
19:25:29 <imode-desktop> something trivial like swapping two subtrees would be incredibly difficult (or at least seems to be).
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20:11:19 <rdococ> I'm experimenting (in my head) with the idea of "double CPS" (passing two continuations instead of one) and how it could be used to emulate delimited continuations.
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20:53:46 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:33:56 <esowiki> [[Your Pong May Minsky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55864 * Chris Pressey * (+5891) Created page with "'''Your Pong May Minsky''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[Chris Pressey]], mostly on June 16 2018 and mostly for aesthetic purposes, which is clearly de..."
21:38:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55865&oldid=55795 * Chris Pressey * (+356)
21:43:29 <esowiki> [[Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55866&oldid=55864 * Chris Pressey * (+250) Note that a wall coming into existing over the ball does not count as a collision.
21:46:52 <esowiki> [[Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55867&oldid=55866 * Chris Pressey * (+108) Minor fix to the The Waterfall Model translation construction.
21:50:37 <esowiki> [[Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55868&oldid=55867 * Chris Pressey * (+172) Add an observation about "instruction pointer".
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22:15:29 <myname> i don't get what an active wall is
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22:50:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asangi a4ac * New user account
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23:54:13 <oerjan> <imode-desktop> he seems to leave at the best time. <-- sometimes i wonder if pingouts are triggered by nickpings, maybe the client crashes or something
00:15:53 <oerjan> i don't remember if i've mentioned it before, but solving tatham's Loopy puzzle by only deleting lines (except for the final check) makes it a bit more challenging
00:17:25 <oerjan> some of the geometries make this more or less difficult
00:23:17 <oerjan> although it makes the final check a bit of boring clicking
00:24:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55869&oldid=55813 * Asangi a4ac * (+140) /* Introductions */
00:24:27 <esowiki> [[Hexsp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55870 * Asangi a4ac * (+2314) Created page with "'''Hexsp''' is a programming language made by Otakuto. It is basically Lisp written in Hexspeak. Every code is written in hexadecimal numbers and it is supposed to resemble ma..."
01:02:52 <esowiki> [[Hexsp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55871&oldid=55870 * Asangi a4ac * (+111)
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01:04:00 <esowiki> [[Hexsp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55872&oldid=55871 * Asangi a4ac * (+18) /* Sample Code */
01:04:39 <boily> fungot: have you seen quintopia?
01:04:39 <fungot> boily: i an- they were all democrats rely on ignorance of it you just even if you sit in the restaurant we were at the beginning
01:04:54 <boily> fungot: in a restaurant? which one?
01:04:55 <fungot> boily: but i do merchandising and mystery shopping
01:05:06 <boily> fungot: a mysterious shopping restaurant?????
01:05:06 <fungot> boily: um that type of thing that's what i need and i love to
01:05:37 <oerjan> . o O ( the restaurant that wasn't there yesterday )
01:07:16 <esowiki> [[Hexsp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55873&oldid=55872 * Asangi a4ac * (+209)
01:08:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55874&oldid=55855 * Asangi a4ac * (+12) /* H */
01:09:58 <boily> . o O ( yesterday, I ate a restaurant that wasn't there. it wasn't there again today... )
01:12:14 <oerjan> so that's what happened to the CIA's restaurant, you fiend!
01:17:38 <oerjan> the one which rhymes with "today" hth
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05:59:43 <zzo38> Do you know what is the computation class of the Free Hero Mesh preprocessor? (ignoring hash table limits and memory limits)
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06:12:01 <esowiki> [[Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55875&oldid=55868 * Zzo38 * (+40) Add category
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10:30:32 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55876 * Iamcalledbob * (+7785) Created page with "'''Chicken''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by Torbjrn Sderstedt, in which "chicken" is the only valid symbol. ==Language overview== A chicken program consists..."
10:35:02 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55877&oldid=55876 * Iamcalledbob * (-6515)
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12:31:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Your Pong May Minsky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55878 * Ais523 * (+1901) /* Continuous waterfalls */ new section
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13:35:09 <ais523> is the integral of an analytic function necessarily analytic? (I love that this is potentially relevant for an esolang I'm making…)
13:35:44 <HackEso> 1280) <oerjan> i don't approve of nuclear-free zones; without nuclei we'd not exist hth
13:35:47 <HackEso> 1196) <fizzie> I am in room number 404. <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door.
13:35:50 <HackEso> 711) <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet.
13:35:53 <HackEso> 866) <GreyKnight> Taneb: The other day on the channel I came up with BRAINLISPCODE, a LOLCODE-style LISP with an embedded bf derivative. I thought you should know. :-I
13:35:57 <HackEso> 745) <pikhq> The world would be a much classier place if the world was full of Gregors. <Phantom_Hoover> True, but how many of them are on fire?
13:37:08 <ais523> err, indefinite integral
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13:53:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zackmowrer * New user account
14:09:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55879&oldid=55869 * Zackmowrer * (+276) /* Introductions */
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14:38:29 <HackEso> 1/2:1267) <shachaf> pikhq: The Google way isn't exactly NIH. They have their own variant of it. \ 972) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫ \ 151) <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities. \ 192) [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG. \ 97) <fungo
14:38:32 <HackEso> 2/2:t> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
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15:21:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55880&oldid=55878 * Ais523 * (+220) a correction in the proof
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15:55:45 <oerjan> <ais523> is the integral of an analytic function necessarily analytic? <-- yes
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15:56:17 <ais523> I'm surprised that isn't mentioned anywhere on the relevant Wikipedia page (or at least if it is, I can't find it)
15:56:21 <oerjan> same radius of convergence on the power series iirc
15:56:23 <ais523> but the Taylor series definition made it seem likely
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19:11:10 <esowiki> [[R U DS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55881 * Zackmowrer * (+1815) Created page with "'''R U DS''' is an simple, [[:Category:Output only|output-only]] [[esoteric programming language]] [[Category:Languages]] created by Zackery Mowrer in [[:Category:2018|2018]]...."
19:22:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55882&oldid=55874 * Zackmowrer * (+13) /* R */
19:27:50 <imode-desktop> ais523: for counter machines with a limited number of counters (let's call it 4 or 5), how would you represent sequential strings? godel numbering?
19:28:21 <ais523> imode-desktop: most likely as digits of a number
19:28:31 <ais523> e.g. you interpret the string in base 256
19:28:35 <ais523> if it's a string of octets
19:28:40 <ais523> or base 10 if it's a string of digits, etc.
19:28:47 <ais523> that's an easy form to work with in counter machines because divmod tends to be easy
19:29:43 <imode-desktop> alright. how about instructions? do counter machines always have atomic instructions or are equivalent transition tables available for counter machines?
19:31:45 <imode-desktop> i.e for every transition in a TM, I'm doing multiple operations in a single step, whereas for something like register machines I do larger operations incrementally by combining several atomic instructions.
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19:33:18 <imode-desktop> I guess you could have a kind of state transition table and simply list out whether each counter is incremented or decremented, and build things like multi-register NOPs off of that.
19:34:28 <imode-desktop> it could be as simple as a boolean flag. 1 if you're incrementing, 0 if you're decrementing.
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19:36:27 <int-e> imode-desktop: I think it's natural to build a test for zero into the decrement operation, in which case it's not perfectly symmetric with the increment.
19:51:31 <imode-desktop> int-e: good point. it'd still work though. if you wanted to increment _just one register_ (let's say you had 3), you could specify a state where you increment all of them, then decrement all but the one you want preserved.
19:52:29 <imode-desktop> control flow could be specified by a bitmask of the registers you wanted to check.
19:53:13 <int-e> that's so ... unmathematical
19:53:13 <imode-desktop> so the notation for 3 registers would be `State:Reg1Zero,Reg2Zero,Reg3Zero:Reg1,Reg2,Reg3`
19:56:27 <ais523> counter machines tend to vary a lot on how control flow works
19:56:58 <ais523> having it as a side effect of decrement is common, though, as that's the only time you have useful information to check
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20:03:05 <imode-desktop> int-e: I'm actually genuinely curious, what part of that is unmathematical? vs. practically any other abstract machine formulation that's been presented since turing's paper.
20:03:36 <int-e> imode-desktop: "bitmask" :P
20:04:18 <int-e> (these binary operations are not very natural, if you can forgive the pun)
20:05:04 <imode-desktop> it's not really a bitmask, you use 0 to determine if you're decrementing and 1 to determine if you're incrementing, so "Increment register 1 and decrement registers 2 and 3" looks like 100. :P
20:05:55 <imode-desktop> "If you're in state 2, and registers 2 and 3 are zero, increment register 1, decrement registers 2 and 3, and go to state 3."
20:06:32 <int-e> There's no accounting for taste. :P
20:18:11 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
20:18:35 <HackEso> This page intonationally left blank.
20:19:00 <shachaf> `learn This page is under construction.
20:19:02 <HackEso> Learned 'thi': This page is under construction.
20:19:12 <shachaf> `le//rn this page//This page is under construction.
20:19:14 <HackEso> Relearned 'this page': This page is under construction.
20:25:38 <imode-desktop> int-e: re-reading what you said keeps piquing my interest: what defines a natural operation? sans the pun.
20:28:25 <int-e> imode-desktop: Hmm, without the pun, it's really a matter of conventions (what does everybody else do?), elegance (is this needlessly complicated), and taste (uh the bit that cannot be defined but that one still forms strong opinions about).
20:29:14 <imode-desktop> the second is something that I'm concerned about, first maybe, third not so much. :P
20:29:44 <int-e> So, there's no hard definition. (Note that there are interdependencies... elegance implicitly refers to conventions.
20:30:55 <imode-desktop> I'd be hard-pressed to prove that implicit dependance. conventions are useful as a starting point imho but treating them as an upper limit gives you a sense of tunnel vision.
20:31:47 <imode-desktop> if we define "elegance" as the negation of needless complication, then there's a lot of old models that follow needless complication.
20:32:30 <int-e> What I mean is that expressing things in terms of established notions, even somewhat clumsily, is usually preferred to developing a new language just to make a single definition elegant. Of course if that language extends to other definitions... well then you may be on the way to a new mathematical theory.
20:33:55 <imode-desktop> with a funny mention, term rewriting. not only do you have to maintain a list of bound variables + storage for all of the bound term trees for those variables, you have to go through the process of pattern matching on terms, which isn't that hard, but something I'd hardly call natural from my perspective.
20:35:11 <imode-desktop> that imho is needlessly complicated. deceptively simple because it relies on the ability to keep state in your head relatively easily and relies on yor pattern matching ability, but deviates from what can be done strictly mechanically.
20:38:04 <imode-desktop> then again, that's just my perspective. I don't like anything that can't be done strictly mechanically in a trivial way unless it can be _reduced_. mainly because the more allowances you give, the more we're just talking in some abstract notation for algorithms, and my train of thought falls apart.
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20:48:40 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55883&oldid=55576 * BoutonIA * (+22) Add Category:Languages
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23:54:12 * oerjan is using webchat, nvg seems to be having network problems
23:55:00 <shachaf> I keep thinking that means Taneb.
23:55:41 <HackEso> nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
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23:58:32 <oerjan> `learn NVG is a student computer club in Trondheim, whose servers are frequently infiltrated by oerjan. Not to be confused with nvd.
23:58:34 <HackEso> Learned 'nvg': NVG is a student computer club in Trondheim, whose servers are frequently infiltrated by oerjan. Not to be confused with nvd.
00:09:58 <lambdabot> CYUL 180000Z 22007KT 30SM FEW200 BKN270 27/16 A2991 RMK CC1CI6 SLP131 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
00:10:00 <lambdabot> ENVA 172350Z VRB01KT 9999 SCT040 BKN100 12/09 Q1006 RMK WIND 670FT 30005KT
00:10:40 <lambdabot> KOAK 172353Z 31010KT 10SM FEW023 21/12 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP134 T02060117 10211 20172 50001
00:11:11 <lambdabot> *** "hth" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (September 2014)"
00:15:20 <boily> helloochaf. mtera???
00:15:56 <lambdabot> *** "tanstaafl" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (September 2014)"
00:15:56 <lambdabot> There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (slang, Usenet)
00:17:09 <ais523> that blank line at the end of the response is bothering me
00:17:27 <ais523> and I'm not even sure how to send one, I get a 412 when I try
00:17:36 <ais523> there must be an invisible character (other than regular space) somewhere
00:19:02 <boily> split on newlines, drop the last one and print the rest?
00:22:14 <zzo38> Do you like Unuseuset?
00:22:49 <oerjan> . o O ( sounds unuseable )
00:24:02 <oerjan> ais523: pastes as a space in webchat
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00:25:45 <ais523> hmm, maybe my client splits trailing spaces off messages
00:25:53 <ais523> I tried sending a U+0020 space but it didn't work
00:26:08 <ais523> (which is not surprising as one of nbsp's main properties is to be whitespace that is never stripped)
00:29:26 <oerjan> i suppose that also pastes as space.
00:29:57 <oerjan> that was just a space.
00:30:52 <ais523> that was a copy-and-pasted nbsp, I think?
00:31:21 <HackEso> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
00:31:26 <ais523> that was a space between two nbsps
00:31:48 <ais523> so either Freenode is translating them (unlikely), or else my client is (also unlikely), or else lambdabot is (more possible?)
00:32:24 <ais523> wait, /that/ was a regular space, and it sent, so perhaps I've forgotten how to type nbsp (or it broke in my recent OS upgrade)
00:41:07 <ais523> nope, same key combination gives me a nbsp in a terminal
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01:29:40 <boily> I wasn't exactly online >_>'...
01:31:51 <boily> I'll be away next weekend (National Holiday). weekend after that I'll be free.
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02:48:42 <zzo38> Unusenet can be useable with NNTP clients. I wrote a document to describe it (available on HTTP and gopher access) that I have mentioned on here before.
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04:02:40 <imode-desktop> so I'm experimenting with using my thue interpreter to do tree rewriting operations.
05:03:25 <zzo38> The specification of Unusenet is at: gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/unusenet and http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/unusenet
05:14:37 <imode-desktop> if I was gonna do this easily I'd need a string representation of a tree that enables a node to examine both of its children without leapfrogging over one or the other.
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09:21:04 <shachaf> Taneb: sounds like a tanebventon hth
09:24:34 <Taneb> Oh god what did I invent this time
09:34:45 <shachaf> easily accidentally kicked foot level power sockets
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09:35:38 <Taneb> I deny all responsibility
09:36:11 <shachaf> Taneb inventeth and Taneb taketh away
09:38:40 <Taneb> I'm a victim in all this
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09:50:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55884&oldid=55882 * Saka * (+11) /* T */ add
09:52:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55885&oldid=55884 * Saka * (+29) some
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15:23:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55886 * Plokmijnuhby * (+173) Created page with "Any clues on which instructions pop and which don't would be good. A dup instruction may also be needed. ~~~"
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16:16:03 <\oren\> Anyone know an alternative to Kerberos that isn't as annoying?
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16:37:40 <oerjan> what, this session connected again?
16:39:16 <oerjan> i guess it was only the network having problems, not the server itself, so it finally got back
16:40:42 <oerjan> so tmux survived, and everything was still there. except the email server is still off.
16:41:21 <oerjan> hm no, that worked too after i restarted alpine.
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16:50:01 <quintopia> i have a sequence in mind. a_1=8. a_n is the area of the largest area integer rectangle that can be formed using at most a_{n-1} squares along its border.
16:50:05 <quintopia> the first few terms are 8,9,10,12,16,25,50,182,1980,246016
16:50:06 <zzo38> This has happened before, that I can receive but not send, and restarting the router sometimes fixes it.
16:52:25 <zzo38> Do you know what could be causing such problems? Could it be the weather?
16:57:57 <zzo38> (Also sometimes it works but occasionally is delayed by a few seconds)
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17:19:51 <ATMunn> it's been a while since i've said anything in here
17:28:39 <imode-desktop> I can't imagine what tree or graph structured memory would look like electronically.
17:28:57 <imode-desktop> tree, maybe. you have some analog of it in network equipment.
17:46:46 <int-e> quintopia: wait how do you get that 10?
17:48:44 <int-e> quintopia: I was going to say that a recurrence is easy; you iterate f x = (x+4) `div` 4 * ((x+6) `div` 4) ... but that disagrees with what you claim: starting from 8 it produces 8,9,9,9... and from 10 10,12,16,25,49,169,1849,214369,2872209649,515599267815122569...
17:52:19 <int-e> (equivalently, f x = ((x+4) `div` 2)^2 `div` 4)
17:54:52 <int-e> quintopia: The idea being that with x squares, the circumference will be x+4 (unless one of the rectangle sides is shorter than 2), reducing it to the well-known problem of maximizing the area based on the circumference. There's some rounding because I'm assuming that the sides are constrained to integer lengths.
17:58:46 <quintopia> int-e: you cant make the border of a rectangle with an odd number of squares, so the 10 comes from making a 3x3 square with 8 of the squares, and leaving the 9th one to the side
17:59:03 <quintopia> the middle gets filled in and now you have 10
17:59:18 <quintopia> but i didnt state that asdumption very well originally
17:59:43 <int-e> quintopia: yeah calling it a rectangle is a bit of a stretch
18:00:08 <quintopia> where did you get 49 from in your sequence from 10?
18:02:05 <quintopia> yeah the 49 is from not keeping tbe leftover from the 25
18:02:06 <int-e> quintopia: 24 = 4*6 is enough for a 7x7 square
18:02:56 <quintopia> so its the keeping the extras that makes a formula hard
18:03:12 <int-e> quintopia: okay, doing what you did (setting an extra square aside if x is odd), the sequence becomes 8,9,10,12,16,25,50,182,2162,293222,5373842942,1804886750517122432 ... so we agree until 182
18:03:55 <int-e> f x = ((x+4) `div` 2)^2 `div` 4 + x `mod` 2
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18:06:36 <int-e> ah you compensated by 1 in the wrong direction ending up with 44*45. plausible :)
18:07:56 <quintopia> div means divide and floor, right?
18:08:25 <int-e> > let f x = ((x+4) `div` 2)^2 `div` 4 + x `mod` 2 in iterate f 8
18:08:28 <lambdabot> [8,9,10,12,16,25,50,182,2162,293222,5373842942,1804886750517122432,203601011...
18:08:57 <int-e> my go to language for combinatorics
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18:19:57 <int-e> editing distance 1 is what I see
18:22:17 <quintopia> putting the names of planets in alphabetical order
18:24:20 <int-e> huh, what star are you looking at...
18:26:15 <quintopia> not the first letters of tbeir names
18:26:52 <quintopia> how would i get the general term of the above seqhence?
18:27:52 <int-e> I was never any good at anagrams.
18:29:02 <int-e> imode-desktop: itym lexicographical
18:30:03 <int-e> imode-desktop: in that case, shouldn't it be lexographal?
18:30:19 <int-e> imode-desktop: (I'm not buying your excuse)
18:32:23 <int-e> you are making a good case
18:32:32 <int-e> but it's still hard to believe :P
18:32:43 <int-e> (also, maybe you should get a new keyboard)
18:33:16 <int-e> I don't think that dirt will help.
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18:46:14 <quintopia> i meant the general term of the rectangle sequence
18:46:49 <quintopia> i was hoping for a constant time formula in n
18:48:04 <int-e> quintopia: it's doubly exponential but all that rounding makes things quite messy... I don't expect a nice closed formula
18:54:45 <int-e> I mean ignoring all the rounding you essentially have x |-> x^2 / 16, so you'll end up with a_n = 16 * b^2^n for some base b, asymptotically... b is approximately 1.0193570549183
18:56:09 <int-e> (I start counting at 0, a_0 = 9, a_1 = 10)
18:59:39 <int-e> "asymptotically" meaning it's 16 b^2^(n + o(1)) for some b... it may be 16 b^(2^n + o(1)), but that requires some analysis that I haven't done
19:08:38 <int-e> (and I have no formula for that b, only numerical approximations)
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02:44:28 <imode-desktop> is there a canonical way to compare two strings non-destructively in thue?
02:47:05 <imode-desktop> I'm thinking of having a cursor walk through a segmented list of key/value pairs. can't think of anything other than "leave a marker, take a character, leave character in temporary location, take character from pattern, leave marker, move to two strings, check for any invalid pairs."
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08:26:38 <esowiki> [[English Binerdy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55887&oldid=55801 * Plokmijnuhby * (+564)
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10:02:16 <esowiki> [[Hamiltonian]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55888 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2072) Created page with "Hamiltonian is an esolang based on the travelling salesman problem. Finding the result of a Hamiltonian computation is an NP-complete problem. == Syntax == Any given program..."
10:04:22 <esowiki> [[Hamiltonian]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55889&oldid=55888 * Plokmijnuhby * (-17)
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17:33:52 <\oren\> we asked for a new coffee machine and corporate sent us this abomination of Silicon Valley hubris
17:33:57 <\oren\> https://www.marsdrinks.ca/solutions/machines/flavia-creation-500/
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19:07:20 <esowiki> [[R U DS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55890&oldid=55881 * Zackmowrer * (+2)
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20:10:30 <imode-desktop> anybody have any resources for compiling down to thue or thue-like languages?
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20:14:19 <imode-desktop> it seems pretty difficult from an imperative perspective, because you'd most likely squash down to an instruction stream + loop delimiters, ala the brainfuck-in-thue interpreter.
20:15:15 <imode-desktop> rather than simulate RAM, because from what I can see, simulating RAM implies a pretty large overhead.
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21:07:37 <int-e> imode-desktop: Heh, what do you think of rule 110 as a string rewriting system: http://paste.debian.net/1029965/ (the inspiration here is that Thue presents an opportunity for parallelism)
21:09:57 <int-e> (This is supposed to simulate the 1001111 glider against the 00010011011111 background pattern as described in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 ...)
21:11:17 <int-e> But I'm not sure that it's correct... my main focus was on the 32 rules for the 110 rule itself.
21:11:41 <imode-desktop> oh the parallelism opportunities are already very clear to me. rule 110 is hilarious.
21:13:37 <imode-desktop> recently I wanted to build a "stateful sort" in thue, whereby you'd continually spawn sets of workers and managers to both A: sort the string as they marched along, and B: competed for space while checking if the string is sorted.
21:14:38 <imode-desktop> the algorithm was "sort the string by the pattern `ba -> ab`, then sort the string by the pattern `ab -> ba`, then halt."
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21:16:33 <imode-desktop> https://ptpb.pw/DHPW/text the ruleset in particular, https://ptpb.pw/Bf1F/python and the corresponding interpreter.
21:18:07 <imode-desktop> it's pretty neat that you can do something like this. I'm still working on speeding it up by not having to spawn workers, but propagating the state by interleaving it between individual symbols on the string. you'd face a storage overhead but it's worth it.
21:20:11 <imode-desktop> (I know my interpreter isn't strictly thue, but I needed non-delimited comments and a sane substitution syntax.)
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00:08:08 <boily> fungot: WHARGHARBL.
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00:31:44 <esowiki> [[R U DS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55891&oldid=55890 * Quintopia * (+136) add categories
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01:58:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international meerkat for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
02:03:43 <oerjan> fungot: please don't ignore the nice boily
02:03:43 <fungot> oerjan: i'll do this and i think
02:04:13 <fungot> imode-desktop: ( ( laughter yeah))
02:04:25 <fungot> imode-desktop: isn't that funny)) irrelevant but i haven't done this before so this is much easier
02:04:46 <fungot> imode-desktop: uh terroristic attacks were given tourist visas or student visas or something like
02:04:59 <fungot> imode-desktop: you don't watch movies at home then you see how you have to ask the defendant
02:28:10 <imode-desktop> hm, how would you implement rewriting over a large, persistent string? something that's beneficial about the turing model is that, while parallelism becomes an explicit detail (multiple heads moving on the same tape, switching between them, etc.), the tape can be paged in and out at will, and only one symbol (rather than a neighborhood) is examined at one time.
02:29:42 <imode-desktop> but with string rewriting you have to check the whole string for patterns, meaning you're going to be pulling pieces of the entire string into memory even though no patterns may apply to them.
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04:46:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bzim * New user account
04:50:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55892&oldid=55879 * Bzim * (+156) Added my intro
04:52:52 <esowiki> [[User:Bzim]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55893 * Bzim * (+151) Created page with "bzim is a computing science student who is into language implementations. Currently, he is at esolang wiki in order to explore extreme ideas and jokes."
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11:24:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Debiller 777 * New user account
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11:36:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55894&oldid=55892 * Debiller 777 * (+312) /* Introductions */
11:37:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55895&oldid=55894 * Debiller 777 * (+94) /* Introductions */
11:39:06 <esowiki> [[User:Debiller 777]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55896 * Debiller 777 * (+44) Created page with "Hi I am Debiller 777 and I create esolang Hb"
11:39:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Debiller 777]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55897 * Debiller 777 * (+2) Created page with "Oh"
11:57:08 <HackEso> olist 1125: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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12:49:11 <Taneb> Olist seems to be updating a lot lately
12:55:24 <Taneb> No, I tried it but couldn't really get into it
13:00:39 <int-e> (I'm no longer alone in openly disliking OOTS)
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13:12:28 <shachaf> So these people are talking about what seems like it ought to be a simple thing to do.
13:13:00 <shachaf> There's an array format. An array is a space-separated list of strings. Each string is of the form '...', where 's are escaped by doubling.
13:13:17 <shachaf> They want to convert it to shell format, i.e. the same thing but with 's escaped as '\''
13:13:51 <shachaf> It seems like it ought to be easy to do with sed or something.
13:14:03 <Taneb> Yeah, it seems so to me as well
13:14:18 <shachaf> I mean, you can write it as a transducer with about 3 states.
13:14:28 <shachaf> But it doesn't seem to actually be easy?
13:15:20 <shachaf> I mean, the real plan is to just dump it in a different format.
13:15:33 <shachaf> But I'm frustrated at how complicated it seems to be with standard UNIX tools.
13:15:52 <shachaf> Maybe I'm missing something.
13:21:14 <shachaf> https://fomafst.github.io/regexreference.html
13:21:24 <shachaf> "Gerdemann and van Noord(1999), who proposed the rule semantics, provide the following example"
13:22:16 <shachaf> Taneb: is this your arch-nemesis
13:53:40 <Taneb> It's certainly an auspicious surname
13:58:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yoga1976 * New user account
13:59:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55898&oldid=55895 * Yoga1976 * (+70) /* Introductions */
14:06:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55899&oldid=55898 * Yoga1976 * (+103) /* Introductions */
14:07:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55900&oldid=55899 * Yoga1976 * (+0) /* Introductions */
14:11:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55901&oldid=55900 * Yoga1976 * (+283) /* Introductions */
14:15:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55902&oldid=55901 * Yoga1976 * (+816) /* Introductions */
14:18:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cuckoo * New user account
14:20:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55903&oldid=55902 * Cuckoo * (+73) /* Introductions */
14:23:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stupidguy * New user account
14:24:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55904&oldid=55903 * Stupidguy * (+76) /* Introductions */
14:27:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fuck! * New user account
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14:29:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55905&oldid=55904 * Fuck! * (+72) /* Introductions */
14:31:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Zackmowrer * moved [[R U DS]] to [[DeadSimple]]: The original name may be confused with RUDS: An acronym for a society, screening type, and syndrome that have nothing to do with this language
14:31:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55908&oldid=55905 * Fuck! * (+122) /* Introductions */
14:34:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55909&oldid=55908 * Fuck! * (+80) /* Introductions */
14:38:15 <esowiki> [[DeadSimple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55910&oldid=55906 * Zackmowrer * (+34)
14:39:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account
14:40:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55911&oldid=55885 * Zackmowrer * (-13) /* R */
14:40:32 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55912&oldid=55911 * Zackmowrer * (+17) /* D */
14:40:59 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55913&oldid=55883 * BoutonIA * (+24) Add Category:Output only
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14:49:04 <esowiki> [[DeadSimple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55914&oldid=55910 * Zackmowrer * (+4) Correct example programs
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20:49:03 <HackEso> smlist 468: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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23:19:11 <shachaf> Cale: good super mega today
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23:48:53 <Cale> shachaf: I agree
23:49:13 <Cale> (and thanks for the ping earlier)
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00:49:47 <esowiki> [[IOBCT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55915 * Yoga1976 * (+4997) Created page with "'''Bitwise Cyclic Tag (BCT)''' is a [[Turing-complete]] programming language using only two commands (0 and 1) to operate on a finite data-bitstring extensible without bound o..."
00:50:49 <esowiki> [[IOBCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55916&oldid=55915 * Yoga1976 * (+4) /* External resources */
00:51:15 <esowiki> [[IOBCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55917&oldid=55916 * Yoga1976 * (-4) /* External resources */
00:52:36 <esowiki> [[IOBCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55918&oldid=55917 * Yoga1976 * (+20)
01:20:52 <esowiki> [[Rattlesnake]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55919 * Yoga1976 * (+1928) Created page with "'''Rattlesnake''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Yoga1976]]. It consists of only two commands, <code>nonono</code>, and <code>...and I'll kill ya!<..."
01:22:18 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55920&oldid=55762 * Yoga1976 * (+68)
01:24:40 <oerjan> that guy keeps getting more annoying.
01:30:12 <esowiki> [[Rattlesnake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55921&oldid=55919 * Yoga1976 * (-172) /* Hello World */
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01:46:40 <esowiki> [[SASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55922 * Fuck! * (+793) Created page with "==Sasm== Sasm is a very simple derivative of the Assembly programming language. ==Commands== ===mov=== It is just the "=" command in C. It sets a register(AX,BX,CX,DX)into a v..."
01:46:53 <esowiki> [[SASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55923&oldid=55922 * Fuck! * (+0) /* Last but not least */
01:47:45 <esowiki> [[Category:Language list]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55924 * Fuck! * (+22) Created page with "Link:[[language list]]"
01:55:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55925&oldid=55912 * Fuck! * (+14) /* F */
01:57:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Category:Language list]]": Useless and not discussed
01:58:44 <esowiki> [[Foobar!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55926 * Fuck! * (+2327) Created page with "'''Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!''' is a simple esolang by [[User:Ihope127]]. The syntax is as follows: Statement: "<identifier><variable>" Identifier: A nonnegative..."
02:05:12 <oerjan> ok, it's clearly at troll.
02:09:09 <oerjan> where's ais523 when i'm actually unsure how long to block
02:09:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Fuck!]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled): Clearly trolling, e.g. with half-edited, broken versions of existing pages
02:10:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Yoga1976]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled): Clearly trolling, e.g. with half-edited, broken versions of existing pages
02:15:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled): Abusing multiple accounts
02:15:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Cuckoo]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled): Abusing multiple accounts
02:15:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Stupidguy]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled): Abusing multiple accounts
02:19:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Iamcalledbob]] with an expiration time of 1 day (account creation disabled): Giving the "original" account a block too, but shorter
02:21:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[IOBCT]]": Half-edited, broken copy of BCT page
02:23:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[]]": Half-edited copy of Chicken
02:32:28 <oerjan> what got me about those pages was e didn't even bother to edit out the mentions of the original...
02:33:52 <oerjan> Foobar! is pretty much the same but i blocked em so soon after it was created it's _thinkable_ e was going to edit it better.
02:35:16 <oerjan> (not plausible, just thinkable.)
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07:28:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * U ndefined * New user account
07:45:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55927&oldid=55909 * U ndefined * (+252) intro
07:48:05 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55928 * U ndefined * (+172) Created page with "Hey there, I do [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ Code Golf]. One thing that bothers me is this: '''(U ndefined)''' should be '''(U_ndefined)''' I guess that's okay."
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10:03:40 <esowiki> [[Rattlesnake]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55929&oldid=55921 * Plokmijnuhby * (-27)
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10:09:12 <esowiki> [[SASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55930&oldid=55923 * Plokmijnuhby * (+28) I'm assuming that's how cmp works, but change it if it's wrong.
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19:19:22 <shachaf> Taneb: someone on twitter told me to use van Noord's FSA library
19:19:41 <shachaf> are you sure this isn't your evil twin
19:21:36 <int-e> . o O ( fully surprising automata )
19:24:23 <int-e> . o O ( Prolog is an esoteric programming languages designed to appeal to PROfessional LOGicians )
19:27:19 <int-e> "Copyright (c) 1994-2000 by Gertjan van Noord." <-- I think he's a bit too old to be Taneb's twin.
19:29:38 <shachaf> Isn't Taneb also copyright (c) 1994 or so?
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20:24:04 <int-e> shachaf: would the copyright date be the date of conception or of birth?
20:28:08 <shachaf> I guess that depends on what's being copyrighted.
20:28:43 <shachaf> If it's the genome then I guess it's conception.
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21:41:22 <imode-desktop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_systems_theory anybody have any resources relating to this? I've tried looking around, but can't find much, not even an implementation.
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21:52:48 <int-e> hrm. https://www.cs.bme.hu/~csima/phd1/node4.html raises more questions than it answers.
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21:59:00 <int-e> DNA computing is the most convincing of the motivations that I've found so far.
21:59:14 <int-e> (I have not previously encountered these Grammar Systems)
22:00:48 <imode-desktop> supposedly there are classifications of these grammar systems, depending on whether each of the grammars operates individually or on one giant work string.
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23:28:12 <esowiki> [[J.A.V.A.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55931&oldid=27421 * HereToAnnoy * (+941) Made the language more maintainable.
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23:29:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:J.A.V.A.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55932&oldid=27422 * HereToAnnoy * (+181)
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01:15:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fuzzballcat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55933 * Oerjan * (+459) Introduction trouble
01:19:17 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55934&oldid=55928 * U ndefined * (-105)
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02:00:08 <esowiki> [[Greentext]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55935&oldid=47261 * HereToAnnoy * (+1) Fixed broken category
02:08:53 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55936&oldid=55934 * U ndefined * (-67) Blanked the page
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04:11:53 <oerjan> girl genius confirms my suspicions yet again.
04:12:43 <oerjan> (look int-e, no spoiler!)
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05:31:37 <zzo38> I thought of some stuff with Magic: the Gathering. Such as: "You can cast this card from your graveyard if there are seven or more cards above it."
05:33:48 <zzo38> Another thing can be a variant of buyback that you will return the card on top of your library instead of into your hand.
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05:42:48 <shachaf> zzo38: I prefer for the graveyard to be unordered.
05:53:45 <oerjan> . o O ( an echelon of skeletons )
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07:19:27 <zzo38> I managed to make a tag system in the Free Hero Mesh preprocessor now (I think). Example: {define "skip" {call \2}} {define "1" {skip \1|"3"|"3"|"2"|"1"|"H"}} {define "2" {skip \1|"3"|"3"|"1"}} {define "3" {skip \1|"3"|"3"}} {define "H" \1} {call "2"|"1"|"1"}
07:26:48 <zzo38> (I think a tag system can be made using TeX macros, too.)
07:28:31 <zzo38> It is a free version of Everett Kaser's Hero Mesh software.
07:28:56 <zzo38> (It uses an entirely different syntax, though.)
07:31:57 <zzo38> (For example, Hero Mesh does not even have macros; Free Hero Mesh does. Also, class codes in Free Hero Mesh are using RPN; Hero Mesh uses a more C like syntax though internally it uses RPN.)
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12:52:10 <HackEso> [U+FF0B FULLWIDTH PLUS SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE]
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14:08:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zero * New user account
14:11:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55937&oldid=55927 * Zero * (+135)
14:12:53 <esowiki> [[User:Zero]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55938 * Zero * (+74) Created page with "Hi, I'm Zero. I post on aidreams sometimes. I like creating pet languages."
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14:25:49 <esowiki> [[First.go]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55939 * Zero * (+1850) yet another concatenative language
14:27:14 <esowiki> [[First.go]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55940&oldid=55939 * Zero * (-2)
14:27:35 <esowiki> [[First.go]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55941&oldid=55940 * Zero * (-12)
14:29:30 <esowiki> [[First.go]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55942&oldid=55941 * Zero * (+26)
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14:31:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55943&oldid=55925 * Zero * (+15)
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16:04:32 <zzo38> Some of the man pages for the Linux capabilities system are missing (and maybe they also require the use of libraries which are also missing). How to find them? Also, how can capabilities be programmed so that if you run "perl x.pl" or "node x.js" then it can use capabilities from "x.pl" and "x.js" files?
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00:19:03 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55944&oldid=55808 * Iamcalledbob * (+170) /* Purpose */
00:19:41 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55945&oldid=55944 * Iamcalledbob * (+1) /* Difference */
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00:24:53 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55946&oldid=55945 * Iamcalledbob * (-11) /* Difference */
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00:26:23 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55947&oldid=55946 * Iamcalledbob * (+8) /* Difference */
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00:35:14 <imode> so I know that turing machines and wang b-machines are equivalent. and WB machines can be extended to provide some pretty practical features (much like TMs can be). I wonder what kind of "practical formulations" string rewriting languages have.
00:35:58 <esowiki> [[Hi-assembly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55948 * Iamcalledbob * (+99) Created page with "==Hi assembly== It is assembly, but it can be used on all computers. The syntax is the x86 version."
00:36:21 <esowiki> [[Hi-assembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55949&oldid=55948 * Iamcalledbob * (+27)
00:36:41 <esowiki> [[Hi-assembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55950&oldid=55949 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* Hi assembly */
00:40:56 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55951&oldid=55947 * Iamcalledbob * (+42) /* Brevity */
00:41:08 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55952&oldid=55951 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Brevity */
00:41:46 <imode> oh boy. he's having some fun.
00:41:47 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55953&oldid=55952 * Iamcalledbob * (+9) /* Brevity */
00:42:07 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55954&oldid=55953 * Iamcalledbob * (-9) /* Brevity */
00:42:34 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55955&oldid=55954 * Iamcalledbob * (-41) /* Brevity */
00:45:28 <esowiki> [[First.go]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55956&oldid=55942 * Oerjan * (-11) Wikify a bit
00:47:21 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55957&oldid=55734 * Iamcalledbob * (-1589) Blanked the page
00:47:52 <esowiki> [[Hi-assembly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55958&oldid=55950 * Oerjan * (-27) rm nonexisting category
00:48:41 <zzo38> I don't know what kind of "practical formulations" string rewriting languages have.
00:49:23 <Cale> `pbflist "You'll be OK"
00:49:24 <HackEso> pbflist "You'll be OK": shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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00:59:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asdf * New user account
01:03:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55959&oldid=55937 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+143) /* Introductions */
01:03:52 <esowiki> [[User:Fuzzballcat7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55960 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+64) Created page with "I created a language called [[KittenScript]], based around cats."
01:05:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55961&oldid=55943 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+65) /* K */
01:05:54 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55962 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+69) Created page with "=== KittenScript === ''Because coding doesn't have enough cat humor''"
01:06:04 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55963&oldid=55962 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-2) /* KittenScript */
01:06:20 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55964&oldid=55963 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+6) /* KittenScript */
01:07:18 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55965&oldid=55964 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-73) Blanked the page
01:07:29 <esowiki> [[User:Fuzzballcat7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55966&oldid=55960 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-64) Blanked the page
01:08:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55967&oldid=55959 * Asdf * (+49) /* Introductions */
01:08:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55968&oldid=55967 * Asdf * (+8) /* Introductions */
01:11:25 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55969&oldid=55965 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+378)
01:11:35 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55970&oldid=55969 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-5) /* Full Syntax */
01:11:49 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55971&oldid=55970 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-1) /* Variables = */
01:12:31 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55972&oldid=55971 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+74) /* Syntax */
01:15:21 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55973&oldid=55972 * Fuzzballcat7 * (+89) /* Syntax */
01:18:13 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55974&oldid=55961 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-65) /* K */
01:18:43 <esowiki> [[KittenScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55975&oldid=55973 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-535) Blanked the page
01:20:37 <oerjan> they seem a bit undecided.
01:21:56 <imode> quick way to spam the channel, though.
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01:42:13 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55976 * Asdf * (+1017) Created page with "==Briefscript== Briefscript is created to be as short-code as possible. ==Syntax== 1 Jump to the 1st character in code 2 square CX and print it i input a number into CX..."
01:42:33 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55977&oldid=55976 * Asdf * (+8) /* Hello, world! */
01:43:12 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55978&oldid=55977 * Asdf * (+50) /* Briefscript */
01:43:44 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55979&oldid=55978 * Asdf * (+145) /* Hello, world!(1 byte) */
01:45:00 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55980&oldid=55979 * Asdf * (+19) /* Briefscript */
01:46:01 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55981&oldid=55980 * Asdf * (-19) /* Briefscript */
01:46:41 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55982&oldid=55981 * Asdf * (+36) /* Syntax */
01:47:09 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55983&oldid=55982 * Asdf * (+30) /* Example */
01:48:05 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55984&oldid=55983 * Asdf * (+32) /* Syntax */
01:48:39 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55985&oldid=55984 * Asdf * (+51) /* Example */
01:49:31 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55986&oldid=55985 * Asdf * (+38) /* Syntax */
01:49:57 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55987&oldid=55986 * Asdf * (+51) /* Example */
01:50:46 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55988&oldid=55987 * Asdf * (+14) /* Syntax */
01:51:07 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55989&oldid=55988 * Asdf * (+19) /* Example */
01:51:36 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55990&oldid=55989 * Asdf * (+20) /* Syntax */
01:52:01 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55991&oldid=55990 * Asdf * (+25) /* Example */
02:03:29 <esowiki> [[PLEASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55992&oldid=55765 * Asdf * (+5) /* Instructions */
02:05:15 <esowiki> [[Owl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55993&oldid=19094 * Asdf * (+1062)
02:24:51 <esowiki> [[Owl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55994&oldid=55993 * Oerjan * (-1062) Undo revision 55993 by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]) (Copyvio)
02:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of a revision on page [[Owl]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
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02:31:33 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asdf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55995 * Oerjan * (+309) Removed copyrighted content
02:38:01 <imode> oerjan: I can't contribute my own work if it's under the GPL? interpreters and such?
02:38:23 <imode> what about the dozens of things that have no explicit license statement? surely that's more offensive.
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03:01:07 <oerjan> imode: you can relicense it
03:01:39 <oerjan> but if you put it on the wiki, you do that implicitly, if you _have_ the right to do so.
03:02:12 <oerjan> but i didn't see anything indicating that user was the original author.
03:03:03 <oerjan> and yes, no license statement isn't allowed to copy either.
03:03:51 <zzo38> You can put anything that is public domain in the wiki. If it is under the GPL, post a link to it instead.
03:04:01 <oerjan> of course, there are probably many instances on the wiki that we've missed.
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03:12:00 <imode> oerjan: I just wonder why the anti-GPL stance.
03:13:26 <imode> rather, I wonder why people _care_. I didn't think the wiki did.
03:14:13 <oerjan> imode: the wiki cannot use GPL content unless it is GPL itself.
03:14:15 <imode> this actually makes me wonder what the wikipedia maintainers think when grabbing source snippets from language websites that have something like the GPL attached to them. I don't think there's a problem there.
03:15:53 <zzo38> Wikipedia isn't public domain like esolang wiki is.
03:16:05 <zzo38> (Some texts on Wikipedia are public domain, but in general it isn't.)
03:16:31 <zzo38> Esolang wiki is required all texts/files public domain, although you can still link to stuff licensed by GPL or MIT license or whatever.
03:16:51 <zzo38> But they have to be external; stuff in the wiki itself is public domain.
03:17:11 <oerjan> imode: CC attribution-sharealike.
03:17:20 <imode> oerjan: but there's source on there that's GPL'd.
03:17:55 <imode> it looks like all you'd have to do is say "respectively GPL'd works are covered under the GPL" and leave it at that in one page.
03:18:16 <imode> I didn't even think this place cared. did anybody make a fuss?
03:18:36 <oerjan> imode: well we remove _obvious_ copyright violations.
03:18:46 <oerjan> we don't care _that_ much.
03:19:02 <oerjan> it's not like i go searching around.
03:19:22 <imode> just curious as to the origins of the idea. because I've never heard of this being an issue before.
03:19:31 <oerjan> i suppose we could do like wikipedia and have some pages be stricter.
03:20:11 <imode> like, if it were me, I wouldn't even bother enforcing licensing questions unless a fuss was made.
03:20:18 <oerjan> it was the original wiki founder graue's idea to make it PD, i assume, then we changed to CC/0 when we found out PD isn't really a license.
03:21:25 <oerjan> (too many places don't allow putting things in PD by decree)
03:22:13 <imode> this just brings to mind the kind of person who'd actually be pissed off by inclusion on the wiki with a conflicting license.
03:23:02 <oerjan> imode: i'm a bit chip on my shoulder about it today because of that trollish bob guy
03:23:18 <imode> I'm just amused that he left his password in his talk page.
03:23:32 <oerjan> it didn't look particularly real
03:23:59 <imode> thar be a reason you're not seeing any more edits from him.
03:25:50 <oerjan> imode: well he has four other accounts, at least.
03:26:00 <oerjan> which will get unbanned tomorrow.
03:26:00 <imode> how lovely. let's hope he's as stupid. :P
03:26:11 <imode> is he a known troll or something?
03:26:31 <oerjan> imode: not to me. but he's behaving trollish.
03:27:00 <oerjan> he could be someone we've seen before of course.
03:27:20 <zzo38> Stuff I posted on Wikipedia, All The Tropes wiki, my own computer programs, the stuff I write on this IRC (unless quoted someone else), is also public domain you are free to use them if you want to do so.
03:27:50 <imode> all the shit I write is under the "I'm not responsible" license.
03:27:53 <shachaf> What if I'm in a country that doesn't legally recognize public domain?
03:28:22 <imode> as in, if you somehow replace your init process with my interpreter, I am not responsible for downtime.
03:28:55 <zzo38> That is fine, since I am not paying for it.
03:29:29 <oerjan> imode: ah but have you put in the appropriate THIS PROGRAM COMES WITH NO WARRANTY, EVEN IMPLIED ETC. boilerplate?
03:29:41 <imode> lmao, for some internal stuff.
03:29:59 <imode> we had an acquisition. I put that in some tools I gave to the new staff.
03:30:24 <zzo38> shachaf: There is many license that is effectively close enough to public domain, whether CC0, the Unlicense, WTFPL, zero-clause BSD, etc; you can use all of that too.
03:30:40 <imode> "This is proof that you can't sue me."
03:31:14 <oerjan> of course they can sue.
03:31:28 <imode> whether they'll succeed is the question.
03:31:37 <pikhq> Yes, but there's sue, and then there's sue with even a chance of success.
03:32:08 <pikhq> If you're likely to have a summary judgement issued against you in a lawsuit, you *basically* can't sue.
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03:55:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55996&oldid=55995 * Asdf * (+190) /* Removed copyrighted content */
03:56:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55997&oldid=55996 * Asdf * (+1) /* Removed copyrighted content */
04:10:28 <shachaf> If you see something with a license that says you can't copy it, just copy it and change the license.
04:11:09 <zzo38> I do not have all of the files for the instrument sounds for General MIDI. How to get the rest of them?
04:11:15 <imode> can't violate a license if you don't have a license. ;)
04:12:36 <oerjan> imode: i'm starting to see the attraction of "don't bother" now...
04:13:07 <imode> sometimes laziness is an optimization. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
04:26:19 <zzo38> Why was the picture blank for half of a second?
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04:42:42 <esowiki> [[4-list]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55998 * Asdf * (+465) Created page with "4-list is a simplification of I/D machine(actually being only 1-commanded, and it supports I/O). ==Syntax== It only works when the alphabet number is 4. If the word doesn't en..."
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08:02:20 <redubious> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgW0PG1UYAAzbaN.jpg:large
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11:53:57 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55999 * Asdf * (+7233) Created page with "'''Emmental''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[Chris Pressey]] in 2007. Emmental is a self-modifying language. It is defined by a meta-circular interpr..."
11:54:38 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56000&oldid=55999 * Asdf * (-63)
11:54:53 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56001&oldid=56000 * Asdf * (-95)
11:55:13 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56002&oldid=56001 * Asdf * (-5535)
11:55:31 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56003&oldid=56002 * Asdf * (-209)
11:56:04 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56004&oldid=56003 * Asdf * (-99) /* Instruction set */
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11:56:50 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56005&oldid=56004 * Asdf * (-326) /* Instruction set */
11:57:04 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56006&oldid=56005 * Asdf * (-143) /* Instruction set */
11:57:23 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56007&oldid=56006 * Asdf * (-154) /* Instruction set */
11:58:18 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56008&oldid=56007 * Asdf * (-55) /* Instruction set */
11:58:37 <esowiki> [[Simplified Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56009&oldid=56008 * Asdf * (-60) /* Instruction set */
12:09:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * BoutonIA * uploaded "[[File:Program "Hi !" in BSoD..png]]"
12:09:36 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56011&oldid=55770 * Asdf * (+71) /* Survey */
12:18:07 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56012&oldid=55913 * BoutonIA * (+4) Add link to the esolang page.
12:20:07 <esowiki> [[Last ReSort]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56013&oldid=45757 * Ais523 * (+288) /* ZISC implementation */ implementation of this in the I/D machine
12:23:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[KittenScript]]": blanked by author shortly after creation (likely an attempt to undo the creation of the page), no edits by others
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12:28:25 <esowiki> [[1234]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56014 * Asdf * (+1477) Created page with "'''1234''' is an extension of [[123]]. == Instructions == The pointer begins at location 0. The program is executed in a loop, and only terminates if the end of the program i..."
12:30:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rattlesnake]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56015 * Ais523 * (+366) attribution
12:38:21 <esowiki> [[Asdfjkl;]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56016 * Asdf * (+2977) Created page with "[[asdfjkl;]] is an extension of [[asdf]] and [[1234]].The pointer begins at memory location 3. It can be moved left or right infinitely. IO is memory mapped. To read from t..."
12:40:03 <esowiki> [[Asdfjkl;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56017&oldid=56016 * Asdf * (-1)
12:41:11 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56018&oldid=56011 * Asdf * (+75) /* Survey */
12:47:53 <esowiki> [[Qweruiopasdfghjkl;]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56019 * Asdf * (+3983) Created page with "[[qweruiopasdfghjkl;]] is an extension of [[asdf]] and [[1234]].(Including [[Brainfuck]] and [[I/D machine]].)The pointer begins at memory location 3. It can be moved left or..."
12:52:32 <esowiki> [[Qwertyuiopasdfghjkl;vb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56020 * Asdf * (+4131) Created page with "[[qwertyuiopasdfghjkl;vb]] is an extension of [[asdf]] and [[1234]].(Including [[Brainfuck]] and [[I/D machine]] and [[BCT]].)The pointer begins at memory location 3. It can..."
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13:24:54 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56021&oldid=56012 * BoutonIA * (+21) Add Category:Thematic
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13:35:59 <esowiki> [[BSoD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56022 * BoutonIA * (+2279) Creation of the page
13:36:43 <esowiki> [[User:BoutonIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56023&oldid=55572 * BoutonIA * (+13) /* My Languages */ Add the language "BSoD"
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13:49:11 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56024&oldid=55692 * BoutonIA * (+0) Modification of "CopyPasta Language"
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16:44:07 <Taneb> Just opened NetHack for the first time in ages (never really got into it)
16:53:52 <Taneb> I feel like I should be taking more notes on the help file
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19:34:41 <zzo38> If you are playing mahjong and all of your opponents are cheating against you, taking your hand tiles into the bathroom might not help, because your opponent can examine the rest of the tiles in the wall and see which ones are missing.
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22:03:08 <esowiki> [[BSoD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56025&oldid=56022 * BoutonIA * (+0) Change color for BSoD Background Color V2
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01:59:15 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56026&oldid=56018 * Oerjan * (-224) /* Survey */ Tarpits listed here probably shouldn't be extensions of other tarpits, and pages with incomprehensible specs don't belong here. That leaves [[123]] of the new additions, put it in the right place.
01:59:40 <oerjan> . o O ( There's no way asdf isn't bob, really. )
02:03:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Rattlesnake]]": Another troll page
02:04:28 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56027&oldid=55920 * Oerjan * (-68) /* General languages */ poof
02:07:51 <oerjan> i'm being awfully arbitrary...
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02:09:51 <oerjan> by which i mean i'm resisting the temptation to delete all the crap pages "bob" made.
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09:31:17 <esowiki> [[Assemblyfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56028 * Asdf * (+696) Created page with "'''AssemblyFuck''' is a language made by [[User:asdf|User:asdf]] and is a version of [[brainfuck]] that uses assembler-like words instead of symbols. == Specification and ins..."
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09:39:49 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56029&oldid=55955 * Asdf * (+40) /* Obfuscation */
09:41:10 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56030&oldid=55119 * YamTokWae * (+47) Keyboards are getting weird....
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10:04:21 <esowiki> [[Messyscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56031 * Asdf * (+1022) Created page with "==Messyscript== Messyscript is a very hard-to-read esolang. ==Syntax== 20ri-4;t[5;t'[y;e'teu;354y;;56;'5lu;y65l'ytyl';ry;rtly;t'yl'r;y' : Increment to the pointer ];ae][flw[er..."
10:04:37 <esowiki> [[Messyscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56032&oldid=56031 * Asdf * (+8) /* Syntax */
10:04:47 <esowiki> [[Messyscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56033&oldid=56032 * Asdf * (+1) /* Example */
10:06:42 <esowiki> [[Messyscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56034&oldid=56033 * Asdf * (+158)
10:08:53 <esowiki> [[Messyscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56035&oldid=56034 * Asdf * (+240)
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10:41:14 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56036&oldid=56026 * Asdf * (+71) /* Survey */
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15:07:52 <arseniiv> hi there. A friend of mine have asked if there is a term for messages of form "/me does something" or "*does something*". In the language we were discussing it, I think there’s none, but it could be possible to borrow from English (or any other language you know), if there is, so I decided to ask y’all here
15:09:12 <arseniiv> I suspect we should add ". o O (thinks something)" to the list. However, I have seen this interesting form only here :)
15:09:29 <izabera> those messages are usually called actions
15:10:23 <arseniiv> thanks! Is there other variations?
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15:21:08 <fizzie> The word "emotes" is also used.
15:21:12 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emote
15:28:56 <arseniiv> oh, this is more specific for the goal of translation!
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15:52:12 <arseniiv> my friend is very thankful, he’d found German interwiki in that article interesting)
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16:56:33 <int-e> arseniiv: . o O ( ... ) is a thought, clearly different from a display of emotion :P
16:59:40 <arseniiv> int-e: is there a clearly defined boundary between thought and emotion? ::
17:00:22 <arseniiv> hm for a majority of applications it seem to be present
17:00:40 * int-e thinks that should be obvious ;-)
17:02:14 <arseniiv> but OTOH we are, and our brains are, biological nonsense. At present, at least. So it doesn’t close a door for incomprehensible states
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17:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> all this time i've thought it was a prefix version of O.o
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20:21:41 <Sgeo_> arseniiv, I've seen . o O (Blah) in JParanoia
20:21:48 <Sgeo_> There was a built in thing for that
20:22:16 <Sgeo_> JParanoia = client for Paranoia RPG online
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21:11:40 <FireFly> I've seen it in a few different channels, although admittedly I might be partly to blame for spreading it to some of them
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21:22:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * BoutonIA * uploaded "[[File:HelloWorldBSoD.png]]"
21:24:20 <zzo38> Did you read my document of IMIDI?
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21:29:01 <esowiki> [[BSoD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56038&oldid=56025 * BoutonIA * (+239)
21:38:20 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56039&oldid=56024 * BoutonIA * (+181) Add BSoD Hello, World!
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22:29:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Professor ape * New user account
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22:36:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56040&oldid=55968 * Professor ape * (+510) /* Introductions */
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22:38:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56041&oldid=56040 * Professor ape * (+1) /* Introductions */
22:41:25 <esowiki> [[User:Professor ape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56042 * Professor ape * (+367) Created page with "Professor_Ape is just this crazy guy who enjoys programming and puzzles and programming puzzles. Also other things. Among those other things is esolangs, probably a result of..."
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23:09:44 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/zP5W/text I did something cool.
23:11:14 <imode> it's a set of rules that governs a 2D grid with an active cursor.
23:12:07 <imode> I drew a smiley face. I'm pretty happy about that.
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23:35:59 <zzo38> I updated the Unusenet documentation with some new additions and some clarifications.
23:40:35 <imode> if anybody has any alternative ideas for constructing a 2D tape in thue, lemme know.
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00:34:41 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56043&oldid=56029 * Oerjan * (-40) Undo revision 56029 by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]) It's certainly not.
00:37:10 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56044&oldid=56036 * Oerjan * (-71) As I said in my previous edit summary, they don't belong here, also this is not a "complete list" section
00:40:07 <imode> Asdf seems to be a bit of a wanker.
00:41:22 <esowiki> [[INTERCALL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56045 * Asdf * (+8062) Created page with "'''INTERCAL''', an abbreviation for ''Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym'', was created in 1972, thus probably making it the first ever esoteric programming lan..."
00:45:27 <oerjan> imode: too similar to "bob"
00:46:05 <imode> yeah like he's just duplicating language pages. :\
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01:37:48 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56046&oldid=43532 * Asdf * (+84) /* 2005 */
01:38:37 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56047&oldid=56046 * Asdf * (-4) /* 2006 */
01:41:47 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56048&oldid=56047 * Asdf * (+87) /* 2000 */
01:42:50 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56049&oldid=56048 * Asdf * (+70) /* 2001 */
01:48:10 <oerjan> those edits look suspiciously close to reasonable.
01:48:35 <oerjan> . o O ( he's trying to throw us off track! )
01:49:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56050&oldid=56041 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-141) /* Introductions */
01:55:38 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56051&oldid=56049 * Oerjan * (+69) Expand descriptions a bit
01:58:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56052&oldid=56050 * Oerjan * (-2) Undo censorship. Seriously, browsers shouldn't do that automatically.
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03:04:56 <imode> did he just try to censor everything? that's hilarious.
03:16:07 <shachaf> That doesn't go far enough.
03:16:15 <shachaf> You ought to censor all criticisms of the wiki
03:26:47 <oerjan> imode: i believe it's a kid browsing through some kind of net nanny - they had big trouble making the introduction in the first place
03:28:41 <oerjan> there were heaps of similar edits caught in the filter because the introduction edit isn't allowed to change anything else on the page
03:30:52 <oerjan> oh that's a specific application
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03:55:23 <imode> so I've basically just invented a new variant of thue that allows line-comments and a modified syntax. should I add this to the wiki with examples? because all of my programs (including the one I wrote today) are good examples of string rewriting.
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04:28:25 <oerjan> whatever you do, don't start by copying the Thue page hth
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05:55:26 <zzo38> Yes, just write it by yourself; link to the Thue page if necessary, there is no need to copy it, though.
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08:19:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56053&oldid=55031 * Asdf * (+68) /* Hello, World! */
08:20:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56054&oldid=56053 * Asdf * (+32) /* Examples */
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08:45:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56055&oldid=56054 * Asdf * (+261) /* Hello, World! */
08:48:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56056&oldid=56055 * Asdf * (+185) /* Hello, World! */
08:49:05 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56057&oldid=56056 * Asdf * (-32) /* Hello, World! */
08:54:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56058&oldid=56057 * Asdf * (+392) /* Cat */
08:57:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56059&oldid=56058 * Asdf * (+97) /* Move value */
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08:58:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56060&oldid=56059 * Asdf * (+55) /* Cat */
08:59:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56061&oldid=56060 * Asdf * (+79) /* External resources */
09:03:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56062&oldid=56061 * Asdf * (+107) /* Division */
09:03:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56063&oldid=56062 * Asdf * (+2) /* Cubing */
09:06:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56064&oldid=56063 * Asdf * (+5) /* Cubing */
09:07:50 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56065&oldid=56064 * Asdf * (-6) /* Cubing */
09:09:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56066&oldid=56065 * Asdf * (+2) /* Addition */
09:09:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56067&oldid=56066 * Asdf * (+2) /* Subtraction */
09:09:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56068&oldid=56067 * Asdf * (+2) /* Multiplication */
09:09:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56069&oldid=56068 * Asdf * (+2) /* Division */
09:10:06 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56070&oldid=56069 * Asdf * (+2) /* Squaring */
09:10:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56071&oldid=56070 * Asdf * (+2) /* Cubing */
09:14:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56072&oldid=56071 * Asdf * (+8246) /* Examples */
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09:16:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56073&oldid=56072 * Asdf * (-63) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
09:17:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56074&oldid=56073 * Asdf * (+6) /* Self Interpreter */
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09:19:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56075&oldid=56074 * Asdf * (+90) /* Quine */
09:19:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56076&oldid=56075 * Asdf * (+34) /* Self Interpreter */
09:20:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56077&oldid=56076 * Asdf * (+20)
09:21:13 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56078&oldid=56077 * Asdf * (+5) /* Cat */
09:25:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56079&oldid=56078 * Asdf * (+315) /* Examples */
09:27:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56080&oldid=56079 * Asdf * (+2247) /* Examples */
09:28:08 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56081&oldid=56080 * Asdf * (-29) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:28:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56082&oldid=56081 * Asdf * (+2) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:28:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56083&oldid=56082 * Asdf * (-2) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:32:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56084&oldid=56083 * Asdf * (+66) /* External resources */
09:33:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56085&oldid=56084 * Asdf * (+43) /* External resources */
09:36:25 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56086&oldid=56085 * Asdf * (+0) /* Quine */
09:37:19 <fizzie> ...that "INTERCALL" page is just a copy of the contents of the INTERCAL page, except without the "See also" section.
09:37:21 <esowiki> [[INTERCALL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56087&oldid=56045 * Fizzie * (-8040) Replace content copy with a redirect.
09:38:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56088&oldid=56086 * Asdf * (+3274) /* Quine */
09:40:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56089&oldid=56088 * Asdf * (+4110) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
09:44:01 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56090&oldid=56089 * Asdf * (+147) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
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09:47:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56091&oldid=56090 * Asdf * (+179) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:47:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56092&oldid=56091 * Asdf * (-4) /* Truth machine */
09:49:25 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56093&oldid=56092 * Asdf * (+36) /* Quine */
09:49:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56094&oldid=56093 * Asdf * (+43) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
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09:52:16 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56095&oldid=56094 * Asdf * (+94) /* Truth machine */
09:55:40 <Taneb> Why is this person making so many edits
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10:02:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56096&oldid=56095 * Asdf * (+18) /* Language overview */
10:09:38 <izabera> maybe you should edit it back
10:11:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56097&oldid=56096 * Asdf * (+48) /* External resources */
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10:29:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56098&oldid=56097 * Asdf * (+66) /* Truth machine */
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11:02:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56099&oldid=56098 * Asdf * (+80) /* External resources */
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11:39:40 <myname> he even removes the link to the truth machine just to put a short description in the section on the article
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11:57:45 <fizzie> I think a lot of that "examples" content (if we want to keep it) needs to go on its own subpage. Four moderately long programs was okay; 18 isn't.
11:58:39 <fizzie> (Also the conversational tone isn't great for an article.)
11:59:16 <fizzie> (And the one-char cat isn't a cat. It's not even a kitten. It's more of a hairball.)
12:04:23 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56100&oldid=56099 * Fizzie * (-60) /* Cat */ Undo one-char cat (revisions 56060, 56078): it doesn't really implement cat, and "four versions (but X added one more)" just looks silly.
12:10:27 <FreeFull> Isn't stdin passthrough just ,[.,]
12:10:37 <FreeFull> Assuming , returns 0 once you're done
12:10:51 <fizzie> The page has variants for the four different EOF conventions.
12:11:16 <fizzie> Well, three different conventions but four different combinations.
12:11:28 <fizzie> (0, -1, "0 or no change", "-1 or no change".)
12:12:00 <fizzie> It's not unambiguous on 8-bit cells.
12:12:06 <FreeFull> "While lots of people didn't find how to subtract, I do found one. It subtracts 7 by 2. " Great grammar
12:12:18 <FreeFull> But we all know 9 bits are the standard ;)
12:17:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56101&oldid=56100 * Asdf * (+966) /* Infinite loop */
12:17:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56102&oldid=56101 * Asdf * (+13) /* Deadfish */
12:17:41 <fizzie> FreeFull: FWIW, I also disagree on the "Squaring" and "Cubing" examples actually doing what they say they do. IMO, squaring 5 would be more like +++++[->+>+<<]>[->[->+<<<+>>]>[-<+>]<<] than +++++[->+++++<].
12:18:12 <FreeFull> fizzie: Yeah, that "squaring" example is just multiplication
12:18:57 <fizzie> I may do a little cleanup later, but there's work stuff now.
12:22:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56103&oldid=56102 * Asdf * (+25789) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
12:22:23 <fizzie> I'm also semi-worried about the CC0 status of all these programs. I don't expect they're all own work, but there's no credit given.
12:22:43 <fizzie> The Deadfish example seems to be just a copy of Deadfish#Brainfuck.
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12:23:21 <fizzie> Okay, that last one is just crazy.
12:23:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56104&oldid=56103 * Asdf * (-25789) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
12:25:09 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56105&oldid=56104 * Asdf * (+3148) /* Quine */
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12:30:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56106&oldid=56105 * Asdf * (+579) /* Language overview */
12:30:46 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56107&oldid=56106 * Asdf * (+8) /* Language overview */
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13:16:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56108&oldid=56107 * Asdf * (+1) /* Truth machine */
13:17:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56109&oldid=56108 * Asdf * (+50) /* Truth machine */
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13:26:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56110&oldid=56109 * Asdf * (+153) /* Hello, World! */
13:27:03 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56111&oldid=56110 * Asdf * (+0) /* Examples */
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16:12:32 <zzo38> It wasn't completely a copy; there was a "New Syntax" section, too.
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16:59:43 <zzo38> (Still, they shouldn't almost copy it either; just a link and the section of new stuff could do, if they needed that)
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18:48:09 <andrew> basically to make a script in it
18:48:24 <andrew> take a python script and convert every letter and number in it to binary
18:49:28 <andrew> if you want you can do the command "musicate-"
18:50:09 <andrew> "musicate-[converted script here]" plays the script, where every + is an A note and every - is a B note
18:50:46 <andrew> it's just a conversion
18:51:50 <Phantom_Hoover> more interesting: come up with a syntactic transformation like that which maps *any* input file at all to a valid python problem
18:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (this will be almost impossible targeting python tbh, better to try a language with simpler syntax)
18:54:18 <andrew> in this language, there are only < and >
18:54:31 <andrew> imagine an infinite tape
18:54:49 <lambdabot> turns :: ((a0 -> f0 b0) -> s0 -> f0 t0) -> t1 -> terror: Variable not ...
18:55:01 <andrew> >(2) turns each pointer 2 degrees
18:55:47 <andrew> and another new symbol, # decides the size of the tape
18:56:07 <andrew> #(2) makes the tape have 2*2=4 squares
18:56:35 <andrew> < always spawns a pointer at the very lower edge of the tape
18:56:54 <andrew> the very down-left corner to be exact
18:57:08 <andrew> #(0) spawns a pointer at that corner
18:58:22 <andrew> <(1) spawns a pointer 1 diagonal block away from that corner
18:58:43 <andrew> <(2) spawns a pointer 2 blocks diagonally away from that corner, and so on.
18:59:28 <andrew> after that, you end the whole thing off with F and then convert each black square to a 1 and each white one to a 0
19:01:18 <andrew> lets make this an infinite tape
19:01:30 <andrew> < spawns a black pixel, > spawns a white pixel.
19:02:53 <andrew> if you wanna know what all that is, its binary
19:03:26 <andrew> [when i say separator i mean - goes inbetween each wedge]
19:04:03 <andrew> that binary is binary for a script from brainf@@k
19:05:33 <andrew> basically, the hello world script for my esolang goes like this:
19:05:52 <andrew> take the hello world script from brainf@@k, convert it to binary
19:06:16 <andrew> make each 0 a < and each 1 a >
19:06:35 <andrew> also have - between each wedge.
19:07:36 <andrew> this language is called wedgef@@k
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19:22:28 <imode> what do y'all think of DawnOS?
19:22:53 <imode> claims to be an operating system written for a subleq interpreter with hardware access.
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19:25:36 <andrew> also it has a single command
19:26:06 <andrew> but its still turing complete
19:26:38 <imode> yeah, it's an OISC.
19:26:48 <imode> or rather, a piece of software targeting an OISC.
19:26:57 <andrew> one instruction set computer.
19:26:58 <imode> I downloaded it and tried it out. it's a mess.
19:27:15 <andrew> you can't make a non-messy os with 1 command
19:28:04 <andrew> was the wrong command chosen?
19:28:35 <imode> it's less that the underlying architecture is bad, and more the operating system is bad.
19:28:48 <andrew> ahhh, the vista problem
19:29:02 <andrew> the architecture's good, but the os is bad
19:29:51 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56112&oldid=56111 * Ais523 * (-25186) rv all recent edits by [[User:asdf]]; at least some of them are copyright violations, best to err on the safe side and assume that they all are
19:30:30 <andrew> the dude says that there is an imperialistic opression
19:30:44 <imode> yeah he's a terry davis certified nutbag.
19:31:06 <andrew> tying computer proccessors and politics together, gimme a break.
19:31:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 58 revisions on page [[Brainfuck]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
19:33:42 <andrew> it's basically a computer that only has a single command.
19:34:05 <int-e> imode: well, two things bug me about dawn OS. 1) OISC really isn't a sweet spot in the performance space. 2) for something that claims to make people free, there should be source code available. I'd like to confirm that they basically have a standard library and a compiler backend (perhaps llvm? would like to know that...)
19:34:13 <andrew> the guy who made it claims that intel is oppressing people by using inefficient software.
19:34:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56113&oldid=55997 * Ais523 * (+681) please stop with the copyright violations
19:34:33 <imode> int-e: lmao, I agree, I was searching for the source in the zip archive he provides, but it simply ain't there.
19:34:46 <imode> he provides source for the simulator, but that's it.
19:35:06 <int-e> (I don't know what's in the disk image, I've never run it)
19:35:45 <andrew> to quote the blog, "He sees chip and OS development as essentially political acts in a market dominated by corporate inefficiency."
19:36:46 <imode> he has an OpenCL-enabled emulator.. I'm curious as to what it does, but if I ran it, I'm worried that it'll frickin' nuke my system. :P
19:37:06 <andrew> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/freedom.html is his political page
19:37:50 <imode> int-e: https://ptpb.pw/sbFN/c
19:37:51 <int-e> I don't quite see that inefficiency, though perhaps Google's TPU effort (beating GPUs by an order of magnitude for NN evaluation) proves some of that point.
19:37:57 <andrew> SUBtract and branch if Less than or EQual
19:38:05 <imode> here's the source code for his simulator.
19:38:53 <imode> the variable names are the stuff of dreams.
19:39:31 <andrew> he says that corporate people are opressing us by intentionally giving us bad stuff
19:40:08 <andrew> i have added another person to my list of crazy people. check! this guy is nuts
19:40:50 <imode> holy shit if you do a string dump on the disk image he has an entire bitmap font in there.
19:41:16 <imode> int-e: I think I found your source.
19:41:26 <andrew> the variables are the stuff of sleep paralysis delusions.
19:41:38 <imode> it's on the damn disk.
19:42:16 <andrew> this guy is nuts in both departments
19:42:26 <imode> it's incredibly impressive.
19:42:32 <esowiki> [[MediaWiki:Sidebar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56114&oldid=30172 * Ais523 * (+45) [[Esolang:Categorization]] is probably important enough to put into the sidebar; people keep missing that it exists and it's a more usable way to find languages than the language list
19:42:41 <imode> Phantom_Hoover: `strings disk0.bin` is what I mean.
19:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway i assume the batshit variable names are due to him being hungarian more than anything else
19:43:26 <imode> I honestly have no idea. he says you need compatible hardware.
19:43:36 <andrew> the guy doesn't know how to make an operating system.
19:43:42 <Phantom_Hoover> but i mean is it surprising it contains a bitmap font?
19:43:56 <imode> Phantom_Hoover: I expected the bitmap font to be, you know, a bitmap.
19:44:04 <Phantom_Hoover> if you want to display shit in that font it needs to be in an image
19:44:07 <imode> it's literally an ASCII representation of each letter lined up sequentially in memory.
19:44:07 <andrew> raspberry pi does a better job, and it has really little commands
19:44:52 <andrew> the guy is actually worse than most of the companies he claims are opressing us
19:45:18 <andrew> are underagers allowed on here?
19:46:13 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/5CQH/text warning: large text dump, but this is the whole string dump of disk0.bin
19:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> that's probably not even the youngest regular we've had here
19:46:36 <andrew> -Imagine a world, where the education of the students on computers is about showing the shapes of computers, and they call it ,,science''.
19:47:12 <andrew> i'm even more sure this guy is nuts
19:47:47 <imode> I'll say this, it's not something I've done.
19:48:05 <andrew> -Imagine that opening a generic picture file needs more complex algorythms than sending a rocket with persons to land on the moon.
19:48:10 <andrew> this is also what he said.
19:48:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56115&oldid=54321 * Ais523 * (+1029) /* Category proposal: constant string printers */ new section
19:48:23 <imode> well. it kind of is..?
19:48:51 <imode> modern image decoding is certainly more intensive than the stuff the guidance systems ran.
19:49:09 <andrew> yes, but its so for a reason.
19:49:53 <andrew> the many small transistors can only detect 1 or 0.
19:50:27 <andrew> a transistor is like a switch
19:50:32 <imode> that has no relevance to the conversation.
19:50:47 <imode> it makes sense that you're 11.
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19:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> transistors don't just switch instantly on or off, they have useful behaviour on the boundary
19:51:24 <int-e> imode: so now one just needs to unpack that disk image... hmm
19:51:38 <int-e> imode: but good to know. if I ever find time for this, that is.
19:52:07 <imode> int-e: I don't know for sure that this is your source, it's not really "complete" from what I'm seeing.
19:52:35 <imode> but it's something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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19:53:28 <andrew> here is a thing that i think confirms his hungarianity.
19:53:31 <andrew> Today is the anniversary of the hungarian freedom fight of 1848. Dawn Operating System is available from today. It is a honor to release it today: this day symbolizes the fight of people for democracy and independence. Today a new kind of battle starts: a battle to take away the computer industry from mega corporations and bribed public servants, and give it back to the people.
19:53:44 <imode> that and the fact that his variable names are all in hungarian.
19:53:55 <andrew> and his name is geri dawn, apparently.
19:54:34 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56116&oldid=55936 * Ais523 * (+32) MediaWiki treats underscore and space as equivalent in usernames and page titles; tell it which spelling the author of this page prefers
19:54:53 <andrew> the guy is nuts, completely.
19:55:04 <andrew> and i invented a new word.
19:55:56 <andrew> also his spelling is poor, which is a big clue.
19:56:28 <andrew> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/img/eszme.png
19:56:40 <andrew> that is the picture on the freedom page.
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19:57:55 <andrew> -Imagine a world, where the education of the students on computers is about showing the shapes of computers, and they call it ,,science''.
19:58:02 <andrew> oops i already showed that.
19:58:02 <ais523> are asdf and Iamcalledbob the same person, do you think? (What's our policy on checkusering things other than spambots?)
19:58:31 <ais523> either way, they're causing a lot of mess cleaning up after them; they might be a troll or might be well-meaning but misguided
19:59:00 <imode> Iamcalledbob was apparently disabled because he left his password on his talk page. Asdf spun up shortly after that.
19:59:29 <imode> so, coincidence be damned, I think they're one of the same.
19:59:43 <ais523> Iamcalledbob created something like five accounts as it was
20:00:18 <ais523> andrew: now you've got me imagining a world where it's possible to determine what a computer does purely from its shape
20:00:32 <andrew> no, that was just the guy rambling.
20:00:41 <andrew> if you don't know, the guy is geri dawn.
20:00:44 <imode> we're picking apart DawnOS.
20:00:53 <andrew> he's a hungarian guy who made dawnOS.
20:01:04 <imode> his emulator is an actual honest to god subleq implementation.
20:01:16 <andrew> he claims that intel and the other corp are opressing people.
20:02:00 <andrew> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/freedom.html
20:02:06 <andrew> there are his ramblings.
20:02:31 <andrew> and his language contains a single command.
20:02:54 <andrew> subtract and branch if less than or equal.
20:03:52 <ais523> it's one of the better-known OISCs
20:03:54 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Subleq
20:04:36 <andrew> one instruction set computer, if you're fancy.
20:04:39 <imode> I'm trying to work out where the hell he jumps to after he loads the image.
20:05:00 <andrew> we're trying to critique dawnOS
20:05:07 <ais523> I think mov/tta is the most commonly used OISC in practice, but subleq is probably in second place?
20:06:30 <andrew> it should be called single instruction set computer, or SISC.
20:06:41 <int-e> andrew: Hmm, some kernels of truth there. Software complexity, vendor lock-in. A lot of hyperbole though.
20:07:03 <imode> int-e: he's Terry Davis certified! sans the racial stuff... and the CIA stuff... and a lot else...
20:07:10 <ais523> andrew: so a ZISC should be "empty instruction set computer"?
20:07:25 <int-e> andrew: https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/22900 is relevant
20:08:03 <andrew> but much of the other stuff is nuts.
20:08:59 <int-e> andrew: (I was going to say that "Imagine a computer, which requires 1 billion transistors to flicker the cursor on the screen." is a misrepresentation... because those billions of transistors can do so much more... but then I remembered that issue :P
20:09:15 <andrew> it is a misrepresentation.
20:09:53 <imode> ais523: by the way, you may appreciate this: https://ptpb.pw/vO8Q/text
20:09:55 <int-e> anyway, I'm not going to take this apart item by item... there's a lot there, and we'd be here all night :P
20:10:38 <imode> it's in my own thue dialect (because I can't stand the original), but it's a ruleset for manipulating an arbitrarily large 2D tape.
20:10:43 <ais523> int-e: I think what's going on there is known as an "abstractoin inversion"
20:10:43 <ais523> * "abstraction inversion"
20:10:46 <ais523> a situation where you're trying to do something which is simple from the low-level point of view but you only have high-level operations to do it with and have to try to synthesize the low-level operations out of that
20:11:13 <int-e> andrew: I like the idea of open hardware. I don't think Dawn is the right way.
20:11:31 <imode> a TTA would be better.
20:11:34 <andrew> linux is the right way.
20:12:04 <imode> transport triggered architecture
20:12:19 <imode> it's an actual practical OISC.
20:12:36 <andrew> this guy is nuts, because he frames things as due to opression.
20:12:37 <imode> with a focus on moving data from one module to another. think of it as extreme microcode.
20:12:41 <ais523> imode: I was going ot say, it looks like an implementation of PaintFuck-without-control-flow in Thue
20:12:47 <ais523> although with different syntax
20:12:54 <imode> ais523: pretty much is! :P
20:13:00 <ais523> also it uses uldr rather than nwse
20:13:05 <imode> it wouldn't be hard to extend with control flow though.
20:13:24 <ais523> indeed, it seems to have a state machine already
20:13:36 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/Bf1F/python here's an interpreter if you wanna run it. it draws a smiley face. :)
20:13:39 <ais523> fwiw, my main issue with Thue is just that you have to write every possible character that something could skip over
20:14:15 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/KUhx/python here's a better version that prettyprints the screen.
20:14:52 <imode> ais523: I'm starting to warm up to that fact, though, because I can just write a compiler that supports wildcards.
20:15:04 * ais523 imagines a wimpmode/sugar for Thue in which you can define a preorder of characters, characters which are adjacent and ordered contradictory to the preorder would be swapped/sorted into order
20:15:16 <andrew> a programmer's reminder of happiness is that code.
20:15:45 <imode> ais523: aha, you're reading my mind. I'm wanting to develop a generic "signals" library for thue-like languages that does something like that.
20:16:37 <imode> andrew: something that translates a source language into a destination language.
20:17:09 <andrew> explain it to me like i'm 5.
20:17:12 <ais523> imode: right, you clearly just need an extra layer "above" Thue that compiles down into Thue and handles all the busywork of writing each wildcard combination
20:17:55 <ais523> andrew: a compiler is a program which takes input (which is a program) and produces output (which is also a program, and doesn't have to be in the same language), where the input and output programs do the same thing
20:18:06 <imode> I've been thinking of writing an interpreter that has arbitrary builtins as well, that after each round of rule application sneaks its own rules in for things like arithmetic, signal passing and such.
20:18:42 <andrew> what are you guys making?
20:21:50 <ais523> compilers tend to be most practical when the output program is in a lower-level language than the input program (often assembler or machine code), although that's not required by the definition
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20:30:41 <imode> it makes me wonder what other kinds of obscure models of computation are out there that can be made potentially useful (and more.. digestable?) by some higher-level tricks.
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20:35:30 <imode> makes me wanna start a site. "esolang rehab: where messed up languages find new life"
20:35:38 <andrew> oiscs are interesting.
20:35:51 <andrew> they can do so much with a single command
20:36:22 <andrew> one command is much more.
20:39:36 <imode> andrew: you should look up Thue.
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20:41:16 <int-e> . o O ( x86 is a zero instruction set architecture that looks at the data pointed to by the instruction pointer and interprets it in a horribly complicated way. )
20:42:26 <imode> it's 10x better. ;)
20:42:51 <andrew> i understood nothing so i'm saying yes.
20:43:33 <andrew> more specifically, 10:=10x better.
20:44:36 <int-e> andrew: it grows old after 10xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
20:45:11 <andrew> the joke was i used thue while describing how much better it was.
20:45:20 <andrew> it's a weak joke, but it's the best i can do
20:49:36 <andrew> have any of you made your own esolangs?
20:50:54 <ais523> andrew: https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ais523
20:51:16 <andrew> it's a brainf@@k variant.
20:51:31 <imode> you made eodermdrome? damn.
20:52:07 <andrew> basically, to make a hello world script in it...
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20:52:25 <andrew> take the brainf@@k hello world script.
20:52:34 <andrew> then convert it to binary.
20:52:55 <andrew> make 0 < [left wedge] and 1 > [right wedge].
20:53:55 <andrew> there is also wedge unary.
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20:54:45 <andrew> more specifically, unary but every second 0 is replaced with this long string of text and every other 0 is a wedge.
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21:04:55 <arseniiv> andrew> are underagers allowed on here? => haha I’ve suspected
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21:07:40 <arseniiv> that's probably not even the youngest regular we've had here> hm could I be so bold and to ask who? Really curious
21:09:50 <arseniiv> when I was 16…18 I was still very immature (on the internets and in general) in many respects
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21:10:53 <arseniiv> andrew> hungarianity => well coined :D I like it
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21:12:05 <arseniiv> (hm what if I am Geri Dawn actually. I was suspected in living in Hungary here once by wob_jonas AFAIR)
21:15:59 <arseniiv> ais523> a world where it's possible to determine what a computer does purely from its shape => why, it’s simple. Tetrahedtal ones cause fires, cuboidal cause eathquakes, octahedral cause floods, dodecahedral cause storms, and icosahedral ones, finally, cause complete cosmic annihilation via a too-near gamma burst. Forgot to add, in that world computers are actually a race of evil jinns.
21:17:56 <arseniiv> oh I’ve completely missed all the fun(
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21:25:03 <ais523> arseniiv: I was thinking more along the lines of an esolang where the shape of the program is the only determinant of what it does
21:25:32 <ais523> ideally something that didn't just have a list of cases for different shapes of edges
21:26:12 <ais523> hmm, actually is "shine a laser into a box full of mirrors" TC if the mirrors can be at arbitrary rational angles and finitely long? it wouldn't surprise me if it were
21:26:21 <ais523> it almost certainly is if you allow curves rather than just line segments
21:26:52 <ais523> this is like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Trajedy, but even simpler in a way…
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21:28:51 <ais523> …actually, if you allow arcs in addition to line segments, I think it's more likely that the resulting language is uncomputable than that it's sub-TC!
21:34:49 <esowiki> [[Conedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56117&oldid=52143 * Ais523 * (+30) /* Semantics */ clarify
21:38:29 <ais523> …hmm, I wonder if Conedy is actually a PDA?
21:39:37 <ais523> it's clearly /at least/ a PDA because if all your calculations use the same base you can effectively add and remove digits from the most significant end of the IP
21:39:55 <ais523> the question is as to whether you get more power by mixing bases
21:41:34 <arseniiv> ais523: interesting! Could it be in some many-dimensional space?
21:42:13 <ais523> I was thinking 2D here; 3D is going to be enough to make it TC because you effectively have two stacks rather than one
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22:02:01 <arseniiv> that comment was actually about the general idea of only shape determining what program does
22:05:55 <arseniiv> it could be about homology groups of that shape, hm
22:06:08 <arseniiv> though I don’t know a bit about them
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23:56:29 <imode> do we have a coin flip bot?
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00:13:25 <fizzie> Not as far as I recall, but it would be trivial to add one on HackEso. It has an 8-ball, which is slightly similar except more nuanced.
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00:44:57 <imode> `8ball should I use a linked list for string replacement operations?
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00:49:26 <oerjan> ^bool Do we have a coin flip bot that fizzie inexplicably has forgot?
00:51:27 <oerjan> 1d2 --does it allow comments?
00:54:42 <fizzie> ...I inexplicably forgot ^bool.
00:54:58 <fizzie> I did think there was something I used ? for.
00:55:20 <fizzie> ^8ball Does this have a deterministic answer?
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01:20:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56118&oldid=54284 * Asdf * (+1016) /* Optimizing implementations */
01:21:35 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56119&oldid=56118 * Asdf * (+81) /* Optimizing implementations */
01:22:19 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56120&oldid=56119 * Asdf * (-1097) /* Optimizing implementations */
01:22:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56121&oldid=56120 * Asdf * (+1097) /* Normal implementations */
01:26:49 <imode> he posted the entire source of his optimizing brainfuck interpreter. which is not an optimizing interpreter.
01:27:24 <imode> then reposted it under normal.
01:28:08 <imode> which unless I'm crazy doesn't work, because `]` matches the nearest `[` and not the matching `[`.
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01:49:22 <oerjan> <fizzie> ...that "INTERCALL" page is just a copy of the contents of the INTERCAL page, except without the "See also" section. <-- i was planning to just delete it like i've done with other similar ones recently.
01:49:45 <oerjan> i was just waiting to see if they were going to edit it into something more sensible in a reasonable time.
01:50:40 <oerjan> ais523: has e been annoying enough to ban permanently yet? i'm afraid to look.
01:51:02 <oerjan> (btw it's almost certainly the same person with different nicks.)
01:51:42 <imode> the last edits he made are hilarious. he just dumped a source snippet of his half-assed attempt at a brainfuck interpreter on the implementations page.
01:51:49 <imode> not a link. the whole program.
01:55:32 * oerjan is still afraid to look. also forgetting to eat.
01:56:08 <imode> `Since he did it all by himself, he had to paste it here:`
01:56:09 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Since: not found
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02:02:04 <oerjan> oh thank god ais523 put down a foot
02:06:00 <imode> huh, my GPU faults when setting my secondary off.. that's.. reassuring.
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02:36:53 <oerjan> <andrew> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/img/eszme.png <-- . o O ( Is that a Hungarian Esme? )
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02:39:46 <oerjan> <ais523> are asdf and Iamcalledbob the same person, do you think? <-- e's doing some of the exact same kinds of edits.
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03:10:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56122&oldid=56121 * Oerjan * (-1097) Remove improper implementation. Even if it worked properly, it shouldn't be pasted directly here.
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03:34:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56123&oldid=56112 * Asdf * (+228) /* Cell Size */
03:35:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56124&oldid=56123 * Asdf * (+98) /* Move value */
03:37:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56125&oldid=56124 * Asdf * (+4052) /* Truth-Machine */
03:38:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56126&oldid=56125 * Asdf * (-3) /* Rot13 */
03:40:01 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56127&oldid=56126 * Asdf * (+90) /* Move value */
03:42:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56128&oldid=56127 * Asdf * (+148) /* Examples */
03:43:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56129&oldid=56128 * Asdf * (+64) /* Cat */
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05:14:17 <ais523> fizzie: the INTERCALL page wasn't quite a copy, a few extra commands had been added at the end
05:15:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56130&oldid=56129 * Ais523 * (-4677) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
05:16:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 7 revisions on page [[Brainfuck]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
05:16:44 <ais523> hmm, I think copying content from Wikipedia more or less immediately after being asked not to copy content from elsewhere is a blockable offence
05:17:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Asdf]] with an expiration time of 1 day and 7 hours (account creation disabled): inserting copyright-violating content into pages shortly after being asked not to
05:20:06 <ais523> it'll be interesting to see which accounts (if any) get caught in the autoblock
05:20:53 <oerjan> that's only for new account registrations, isn't it?
05:21:18 <oerjan> e has 5 accounts still...
05:22:50 <oerjan> although Asdf hasn't outright said it's the same person as the others, the behavior is overlapping.
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05:25:20 <ais523> as far as I know, the autoblock triggers on any attempt to edit the wiki (in a general sense, including account registration) using the IP address of a user who was recently blocked
05:25:54 <ais523> I think the main thing that's getting on my nerves is the creation of large numbers of virtually identical pages
05:26:05 <ais523> that and ignoring the warning about copyright violation
05:26:15 <ais523> the pages could really do with merging
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05:26:36 <ais523> I'm too tired to do that right now though
05:26:40 <oerjan> i've deleted some of them, where e didn't bother to edit out the name of the original properly.
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08:30:51 <andrew_> and i've got some things to say,
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08:37:22 <int-e> andrew_: this channel is slow but people will generally pick up what you say any time of the day... so you can usually just say what you have to say rather than announcing the fact
08:43:28 <andrew_> has anybody made an os using thue
08:47:35 <int-e> Well, you probably need better I/O capabilities (probably the purest approach is to define a protocol on top of the string-based I/O that is already there)
08:49:22 <andrew_> brainf@@k os is obviously hard to make.
08:50:02 <int-e> But you'll run into severe performance problems on the way... afaiui, Thue incurs at least a quadratic slowdown for random access memory, which you need (I think) for any realistic OS, because you'll probably want to have a C compiler.
08:51:04 <int-e> Thue isn't really easier than Brainfuck.
08:51:19 <andrew_> what's the easiest esolang you know?
08:51:39 <andrew_> that isn't a joke like hello
08:51:51 <andrew_> [all you can do in hello is say hello world]
08:51:51 <int-e> Hah... so many answers.
08:52:15 <int-e> Befunge is probably a realistic answer.
08:54:28 <int-e> INTERCAL has arrays, so that makes it kind of easy; Binary lambda calculus is easy if you compile from a minimalistic functional programming language (the translation is rather direct but I wouldn't want to do it by hand)
08:56:50 <andrew_> ya, INTERCAL's arrays are the stuff of inception.
08:57:06 <int-e> Mostly I don't think there is much point. Write a C compiler, don't bother with the OS.
08:57:22 <myname> i would love an efghij os
08:58:33 <andrew_> let's call that os "object os"
08:58:38 <int-e> (And even writing a C compiler is more tedious than fun... so usually people stop when they have an interpreter for anything Turing-Complete. Welcome to theoretical computer science ;-) )
08:59:19 <myname> on the topic: does anybody have an idea for a master thesis on computational modells?
09:00:37 <andrew_> how much would efghij os cost.
09:00:45 <andrew_> i mean, how much would all the items cost
09:02:02 <andrew_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Efghij_%E2%80%94_BelMandel_function.jpg
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09:10:19 <andrew_> [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[>[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]>[[[[]>>[[]>-.[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[>]]]]]]]]]]]]>[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]>]]]]]]]]>[[]>]]]]]]>]]]]]]]]>-.[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]>-.[[[[[>
09:10:35 <andrew_> hello world in a certain language.
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09:33:05 <Taneb> Some of you people know things, right?
09:33:43 <Taneb> I should try to use that to my advantage some time
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09:36:22 <shachaf> Taneb: But some of us know negative things
09:36:41 <Taneb> shachaf: I can use that to my advantage also if I plan accordingly
09:38:21 <andrew_> i know exactly -120 things.
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09:45:55 <myname> you people are aweful at giving thesis ideas
09:46:21 <Taneb> myname: honestly I'm not that great at theses
09:46:24 <andrew_> how about a thesis in esolangology?
09:47:03 <Taneb> (very narrowly avoided failing my masters)
09:49:08 <fizzie> My advice is to get a summer job doing research at your university department, because that aften leads to a thesis topic. (It's what happened to me.)
09:52:25 <fizzie> (Except "aften" isn't a word.)
09:56:12 <Taneb> I wanted to do a PhD after my undergrad but I didn't quite manage to get good enough grade to get funding for the offer I had
09:56:43 <Taneb> I've been thinking about getting a second master's degree (my first was intergrated into my undergrad)
09:57:47 <Taneb> But I can't get a loan from the government here to do it because I've already got a master's degree
09:58:01 <Taneb> So it'd be easier to do it on the continent
09:59:24 <fizzie> You'd better hurry, then, before they close the ports and stop all flights.
10:00:06 <Taneb> I have ways and means even in that eventuality
10:00:53 <fizzie> I see: you own a boat.
10:02:41 <Taneb> That's almost a 12th of a circle
10:02:54 <andrew_> i mean 29 education degrees.
10:03:17 <Taneb> That's almost a 12th of an education circle
10:04:04 <fizzie> After 360 (education) degrees, are you back where you started from?
10:04:35 <Taneb> Yes but after so much time at university you'd be so politically radical that you'll have performed an entire revolution
10:08:28 <andrew_> what's a pirate's favorite unit? the kilometarrrrrr
10:09:06 <shachaf> I'm sure Taneb means North America.
10:09:30 <andrew_> at what time are you 2nd? at 1 second to midnight
10:09:42 <shachaf> Europe is hardly a continent. More of a peninsula.
10:10:04 <andrew_> which unit always loses the race?
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14:45:20 <andrew360_> "stroopwafel" is the quotation mark equivalent, used when making strings
14:46:09 <andrew360_> "cream(operation)" is used for every operation involving a variable.
14:47:08 <andrew360_> the variable can be any ascii character
14:50:10 <andrew360_> "pinwheel" is repeat, "big chip" is until
14:50:53 <andrew360_> "candy" is if, "no-bake" is then, "maple" is else
14:53:00 <andrew360_> "butterscotch" prints out the whole source code of the program to console.
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14:58:22 <Taneb> When the most interesting thing about it is the choice of keywords, and it'd be exactly as interesting with a completely different set of keywords... it's not very interesting
14:59:27 <andrew360_> also, there is a special command which is called "cookieExplosion" that makes the computer print out "I want some cookies" 100 times.
15:03:36 <andrew360_> also, when you type any of those commands they get shortened to the respective cookies.
15:06:36 <andrew360_> > is replaced with a picture of a macadamia nut cookie
15:06:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:28: error: parse error on input ‘of’
15:06:52 <andrew360_> < is replaced with a picture of a pinwheel cookie
15:07:39 <andrew360_> + is replaced with a picture of a double chip cookie.
15:08:08 <andrew360_> - is replaced with a picture of a gingerbread man
15:08:40 <andrew360_> . is replaced with a picture of a plain cookie
15:09:40 <andrew360_> , is replaced with a picture of a peanut butter cookie
15:09:52 <andrew360_> [ is replaced with a picture of a bgi chip cookie
15:09:54 <j-bot> andrew360_: is (replaced with a picture of a bgi chip cookie)
15:12:03 <j-bot> Taneb: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
15:12:18 <j-bot> andrew360_: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
15:12:53 <Taneb> j-bot is a bot for running J
15:13:21 <Taneb> A programming language
15:13:41 <Taneb> Although it certainly wouldn't be out of place
15:14:01 <andrew360_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language)
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15:22:10 <andrew360_> [ i can type anything here, like, the j programming language is a complete tool.
15:22:11 <j-bot> andrew360_: |spelling error
15:22:11 <j-bot> andrew360_: | i can type anything here, like, the j programming language is a complete tool.
15:25:12 <andrew360_> ] 'J wouldn't be out of place in esolang wiki'
15:26:16 <Taneb> Yes, but don't in an IRC channel
15:26:45 <andrew360_> if you can link to a page containing the 99 bottles of beer code in J, link it
15:32:44 <andrew360_> [ 'I am only an utter tool. A slave to my master engineers.'
15:32:45 <j-bot> andrew360_: I am only an utter tool. A slave to my master engineers.
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15:37:32 <fizzie> There are a lot of bots.
15:37:43 <fizzie> Less these days than there have been, though.
15:38:46 <fizzie> I guess it's down to esowiki, fungot, HackEso, j-bot, lambdabot and zemhill, and maybe if you count clog.
15:38:47 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( can you talk for ten minutes and overall so or else um so we just cancelled it laughter because
15:40:55 <andrew360_> oh, are there any other bots that run coding languages
15:41:13 <fizzie> Former bots include at least EgoBot, Sparkbot, optbot, oonbotti, metasepia, ruddy, preflex, evalj, idris-bot, passwordBOT, applybot, blsqbot, fnordbot, termbot, otherbot.
15:41:33 <fizzie> fungot is written in Befunge, and can run brainfuck and underload.
15:41:34 <fungot> fizzie: i was told to do something to make more patios here in texas
15:41:38 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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15:42:13 <fizzie> HackEso is just a general-purpose Linux system, so it can run a bazillion different things. It also contains an instance of EgoBot in it somewhere, which has a bunch of esolang interpreters.
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15:42:22 <fizzie> And lambdabot of course does Haskell.
15:42:42 <andrew360_> yes, if your iq is more than 45 you know that.
15:43:07 <HackEso> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
15:43:13 <fizzie> `! befunge "olleh">:#,_@
15:43:35 <fizzie> (Those are all inherited from EgoBot.)
15:43:52 <fizzie> (Not all of them necessarily work any more.)
15:44:35 <fizzie> lambdabot doesn't evaluate IO things, so the result of that is slightly boring.
15:44:35 <andrew360_> public class HelloWorld { public static void main(String[] args) { // Prints "Hello, World" to the terminal window. System.out.println("Hello, World"); } }
15:44:40 <fizzie> > putStrLn "Hello World"
15:45:10 <fizzie> (You can use private messages if you're going to do something particularly noisy.)
15:45:33 <andrew360_> so if i'm doing 99 bottles of beer i can use private messages
15:46:04 <fizzie> Yes, though HackEso won't output more than one IRC line anyway.
15:46:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the lambdabot limits are.
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15:49:20 <andrew360_> the distribution of golfers by holes is inversely exponential.
15:51:00 <andrew360_> 35% of golfers are 1-holers [people who have passed 1 hole
16:03:49 <arseniiv> oh it is suddenly all lively and animated here
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17:35:24 <esowiki> [[Unilot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56131 * Heavpoot * (+2366) Created page with "'''Unilot''' {{infobox proglang |name=Unilot |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Lukalot]], with help from [[User:Lyricly]], [[User:Heavpoot]] and [[User:Galaxtone]] |year=..."
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18:05:53 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56132&oldid=55815 * ZM * (+409) Infobox added
18:07:23 <arseniiv> hm is there an eso that is de jure (that is, by “official” description) non-TC, but de facto it is TC, if one uses quirks that are not immediately obvious and are unusual and cryptic side effects of constructions of the language in some non-typical environment
18:08:38 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56133&oldid=56132 * ZM * (-1319) /* Implementation */
18:08:49 <arseniiv> e. g. if dividing by zero, or popping from an empty stack, or adding a number that is Gregorian leap year number, there could be some actions performed
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18:10:31 <arseniiv> in some Soviet programmable handheld calculators there were official and unofficial quircks that could be used to do something which is impossible without them, or which is simply handy, this is the inspiration for the previous
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18:12:34 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56134&oldid=56133 * ZM * (+0) Reordering categories
18:13:07 <arseniiv> of course official ones were sensible e. g. value in one of registers was decremented when performing jump-if-equal or something, and this register thus was useful as a loop counter
18:13:36 <arseniiv> I suggest something less logical
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18:16:48 <arseniiv> for an actual idea, we could perform indirect access and disallow it in “normal usage” constructs, say, no arrays/lists, no unbounded integers
18:18:51 <arseniiv> wait, no unbounded memorry addressable still. Hm, then maybe “secret” cons-cells
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18:49:04 <imode> are there any computational paradigms that are more elegant and simplistic than string rewriting?
18:53:03 <APic> Rewriting the Value 0? 😉
18:53:19 <\oren\> holy fuck these ingertation test has been running for 24 hours... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
18:53:44 <\oren\> imode: neural networks?
18:53:54 <imode> \oren\: I have my doubts on that.
18:54:15 <APic> Neural Networks are neither elegant nor simplistic.
18:54:41 <APic> imode: Instead of having a String of n Characters You just have a String of 0 or 00 or 000 and so on 😉
18:54:52 <APic> Was rather meant as a Joke, sorry
18:55:00 <andrew360_> imagine a programming language for ducks
18:55:07 <imode> knowing esolangs, that could be the name of a language...
18:56:17 <imode> test failed, \oren\?
18:56:47 <\oren\> imode: no, i just looked at the log files, and realized it isn't even 1/8th finished
18:57:30 <\oren\> which implies that I need to change the schedule from weekly to monthly
18:57:46 <imode> glacial runtimes, huh.
18:58:07 <\oren\> or demand a new server,on the basis that this is cruel and unusual
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18:58:47 <\oren\> imode: problem is that this server has a shitty graphics card
18:59:04 <\oren\> meaning that it sucks at neural networks
18:59:44 <imode> treat yoself with a tesla cluster boi.
18:59:44 <\oren\> also these test sets are too big and keep getting bigger
19:00:25 <andrew360_> fun fact: our brains are technically neural networks/
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19:24:10 <andrew360_> i made a brainf@@k variant called coolf@@k
19:24:45 <andrew360_> < is "ooh look at me moving this pointy thing right, yeah dude!"
19:25:05 <imode> I don't think you actually understand brainfuck.
19:25:18 <andrew360_> that's true, all i do is make variants.
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19:58:35 <imode> performing string rewriting cleanly is an interesting problem. it presents some interesting choices. fixed or resizable strings? if resizable, what's your replacement/resizing strategy? are you going to allocate a new string every time you perform a rewrite (unless the pattern results in a shorter string)? or are you going to implement a linked list for characters and do trivial inserts/deletions?
19:59:22 <imode> I'm looking at building one in C, and I'm warming up to the linked list approach.
20:01:00 <imode> that plus a rolling queue rewrite strategy.
20:04:18 <arseniiv> imode: are there any computational paradigms that are more elegant and simplistic than string rewriting? => term/tree rewtiting? It’s still elegant, but of course less simplistic
20:05:00 <imode> definitely less simplistic. representation of terms/trees gets weird because there are so many different ways.
20:06:07 <imode> plus the pattern matching traditionally implies not rewriting just the terms, but the associated list of variable bindings as well.
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20:10:32 <arseniiv> olling queue rewrite strategy => oh, could I read about it somewhere?
20:11:38 <imode> it's pretty much just rewriting on a circular string. at a given "step", you run through your rule list to see if the lhs of any rule matches the head of the queue.
20:12:01 <imode> if it does, remove the lhs from the queue, and enqueue the rhs of the rule.
20:12:10 <imode> if it doesn't, requeue one symbol.
20:12:45 <imode> it's essentially circular string rewriting, but my initial guess is that it's a little better than "scan forward, replace, start over", because patterns might exist past the matched one, and you'll get more done in a shorter time.
20:13:41 <imode> it also means that you don't need to generate a secondary string, you can just resize your queue.
20:14:01 <imode> I'll probably draw something like it up in python later today.
20:20:07 <imode> a caveat is that, if you're going to do it like this, you need to keep track of the length. if the number of failed rule applications matches the number of symbols in the queue, no rule has matched, so you can terminate.
20:21:49 <imode> if you don't do this, you'll keep cycling through the queue endlessly because a failure to match just means "move on to the next symbol".
20:25:21 <imode> strategies for interpreting string rewriting languages.
20:27:34 <andrew360_> the language where if i do 10:=10x a joke gets old
20:38:21 <arseniiv> imode: thanks, interesting approach!
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20:41:22 <andrew360_> somebody should make a language where the tape can be twisted, ripped and mroe
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20:49:41 <imode> if I provide extensions in my interpreter for things like built-in rules that provide network functionality, disk I/O, etc., I'm planning on writing a MUD.
20:50:44 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
20:55:26 <andrew360_> [because the idea for it was born in this chat]
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21:23:36 <imode> handling raw text input in a string rewriting language wouldn't be that bad. you'd just need to translate each character into its equivalent hexadecimal, binary, or other desired base representation.
21:27:56 <imode> my thoughts is that you could have delimited sections of a string signify the rewrite space of a certain ruleset.
21:29:24 <imode> each section would comprise of two parts: an input queue, and the string that ruleset rewrites.
21:30:10 <imode> handling such that a ruleset applies to only part of a string is tricky. you either need to use prefixed symbols (so something like `aaaa` turns into `<id>a<id>a<id>a<id>a`...
21:30:31 <imode> or you need to explicitly specify your rules only apply around prefixed cursors.
21:31:14 <imode> the "blueprint" for a given ruleset in the string could look like [<queue>]{<initial string>}.
21:32:21 <imode> communication occurs via special patterns. if you want to communicate a symbol to the outside world, you place a marker next to it and wait for the courier to come pick it up and place it in everybody else's input queue, where it can be requested by placing another special marker.
21:33:06 <imode> building an expressive language on top of this means providing built-ins for handling signals from the ruleset to the outer interpreter. I can simulate something like an arithmetic logic unit that takes hexadecimal, binary, etc. from a ruleset and performs arithmetic and logical operations on it.
21:34:40 <imode> it's all still just a sketch...
21:38:05 <andrew360_> you're making ideas for a new language, arent'cha
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21:41:52 <imode> am I wrong thinking he's in the worng place? :\
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21:57:52 <HackEso> smlist 469: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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22:01:03 <arseniiv> imode: you don’t. He’s quite hyperactive-ish(
22:05:00 <imode> I remember when I was 10 and on IRC. I had some of the same quirks. :P
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22:11:41 <boily> helloochaf. what's the smlist again for?
22:11:52 <HackEso> Naergon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:15:00 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
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22:16:21 <arseniiv> imode: ah when I was 10 I had no computer and didn’t think of internet altogether :D and I missed all the early-internet fun(
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22:20:52 <boily> GHAGH! new tvtropes design!
22:21:49 <imode> arseniiv: it was a wild time. ;)
22:34:38 <imode> on another topic: I'm looking to build an expandable home storage array, and am looking to get into tape. anybody have any experience in this?
22:35:29 <imode> it's going to be largely offline storage.
22:47:31 <imode> I'm also starting to consider optical media.
22:51:10 <fizzie> All I know about tapes is that I believe LTO won, though DAT/DDS struggled on for quite a while. No hands-on experience with any of this from the last two decades.
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22:52:29 <imode> duly noted. just from the availability standpoint of an LTO drive, I might just go with optical.
22:53:02 <imode> I have a bunch of old 250GB, 500GB, 1TB, and 2TB harddrives I'd like to fully image and archive.
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00:31:12 <oerjan> . o O ( andrew doesn't like puns? he's doomed in this channel... )
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00:35:03 <boily> he's either doomed, or sane.
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01:14:43 <oerjan> helloily. wait, you don't like puns?
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01:36:45 <oerjan> > error "test" `seq` print "hello"
01:37:44 <oerjan> > error "test" `seq` ()
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01:41:08 <boily> bonsøœirjan. I suffer them like a hot chili.
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02:18:28 <nfd9001> i don't think this counts as a discrete language, really, but
02:18:29 <nfd9001> https://github.com/nfd9001/LiterallyRunYourCode
02:19:18 <nfd9001> location-based BF machine. walk into geofences to input characters, then one step of the program is run every 20 or so meters you walk
02:20:50 <nfd9001> i just saw the kinect brainfuck thing and thought "hey i can make this, but worse"
02:20:58 <imode> there's a kinect brainfuck thing?
02:21:09 <nfd9001> yeah, think it was called bodyfuck?
02:21:23 <imode> programming through interpretive dance?
02:22:23 <nfd9001> also part of this was an excuse to put "fuck" several times on a poster that would end up on the wall at my uni
02:22:56 <nfd9001> afaik it's still hanging there
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05:06:40 <imode> anybody know of any _practical_ languages based on string rewriting? the only thing I'm aware of is metamath.
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08:06:54 <esowiki> [[1argasm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56135 * Zero * (+997) a 1 argument assembly
08:07:53 <esowiki> [[1argasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56136&oldid=56135 * Zero * (+18)
08:10:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56137&oldid=55974 * Zero * (+14)
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10:18:19 <int-e> wtf were the mercurial authors thinking when they implemented the default behavior of 'hg add'?
10:21:38 <int-e> and is there a better way to undo that command than the overapproximation hg forget "set:added()"?
10:25:01 <int-e> For those who don't know, 'hg add' adds all untracked files that are not ignored. I'm hard pressed to imagine that this is ever a useful behavior for nontrivial repos.
10:25:27 <int-e> (the behavior is not even scoped by the current working directory)
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12:23:32 <int-e> (I was hoping for shachaf to come to mercurial's defense ;-) )
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16:21:01 <shachaf> int-e: But I've hardly used mercurial
16:23:20 * moony is finally managing to understand haskell
16:25:37 <andrew_> i dont understand brainf@@K
16:29:32 <Taneb> Is brainf@@k the same thing as brainfuck
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18:39:19 <imode> solutions for symbol conflicts in systems with multiple sets of conflicting rewrite rules: 1. prefix every symbol with a unique ID indicating which ruleset the symbol belongs to, or 2. use a cursor/head-based approach.
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18:43:33 <imode> the first approach bloats the string and the rules. the second requires a semi-nontrivial rewrite of all the rules.
18:44:16 <imode> the second still requires a prefix, but only on the cursors.
18:46:16 <imode> the first is attractive despite the bloat, but I have a feeling a relatively smart compiler can make a reasonable choice between conflict resolution strategies.
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20:05:22 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/Rl2J/text the input, and... https://ptpb.pw/vI5w/text the resulting ruleset.
20:06:07 <imode> still working on how I'm going to signify how I want the initial string symbols represented. manually inserting prefixes sucks.
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20:07:49 <imode> maybe an alternate separator. something like ;;=;; to signify the split between rules and the set of initial input strings.
20:11:56 <imode> the next step would probably be to generate rules for random walks when symbols from other rulesets conflict.
20:12:47 <imode> i.e if I see a symbol from ruleset 0 in the middle of ruleset 1, I'd like for it to perform a random walk, left or right, until it can be assimilated by its appropriate ruleset.
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22:27:44 <imode> something in me says I should stop messing with this and go make my own model of computation.
22:28:55 <imode> but really, what's out there that isn't just a derivative of what's already been discovered?
22:33:54 <imode> we have things based on linear sequences of characters in multiple dimensions, we have things based on multiple stacks of single symbols (counter machines), we have random access variants of all of that..
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22:34:41 <imode> we have variations based on rewriting, along with different structures we do rewrites over.
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23:58:52 <nfd> i wonder if there's any interesting languages that could be constructed with atomic reads/writes from a pool of tuples
00:00:15 <nfd> you could do it by specifying machines that get exactly one tuple from the bag (removing it) and adding exactly one afterwards
00:02:06 <nfd> if the machines are at least as powerful as lambda expressions, the result should be turing complete
00:04:39 <nfd> input would then simply be adding tuples to the pool--whether that's at the beginning or at runtime doesn't matter
00:05:03 <nfd> and committing one specific value to the pool (eg. the empty tuple?) kills all the machines
00:07:02 <nfd> yeah, like linda
00:07:35 <nfd> the trick is that you only get extremely simple machines
00:07:38 <imode> I've experimented with tuple-based rewriting. I got as far as implementing arithmetic before stopping. I used pattern matching and variable binding.
00:09:15 <imode> code was specified as tuples as well.
00:09:28 <imode> so you had this one amorphous bag that could be distributed amongst machines.
00:09:40 <nfd> what were your limits on variable binding? i'm imagining something like this
00:10:01 <nfd> ("val" a b c d) -> ("out" a b c "5")
00:10:25 <nfd> i think with a linda-like bag that this is probably turing complete
00:10:45 <nfd> yeah. it sounds like a super easy proof
00:10:48 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/urGZ/python so here's where.. I left off.
00:10:52 <nfd> but i'm not gonna claim it is until i do it
00:11:03 <imode> line 301 is where the code starts.
00:11:20 <imode> the language I was implementing was assembly-like in nature.
00:11:47 <imode> each "line" had the ability to reference other lines and contain the result of its executed command.
00:11:54 <nfd> pretty sweet!
00:12:26 <imode> so you could translate things like "Foo X Bar" to `match` commands by saying "okay, I need a tuple with Foo in the first place and Bar in the third place.`
00:13:41 <imode> and then the resulting tuple would be dragged from storage, stored as a match, and then you could fetch another tuple like `Bar X Baz`, using the previous result's second column as a constraint (because they use the same variables in the "macro language").
00:13:45 <nfd> gonna have to give this a close read
00:14:10 <imode> it's pretty weird and I have about 30 revisions of it going back to february of last year.
00:14:34 <imode> obviously not completed and it looks friggin' terrible.
00:15:22 <nfd> i'm thinking about doing a super-minimal version of this for kicks, now
00:16:00 <nfd> i guess i just specified the entire syntax in that one message up there
00:16:01 <imode> try it! the concept is pretty minimal as-is: match and assert are the only required commands for pattern matching and assertions.
00:16:35 <imode> match queries the tuple store and grabs things from it in a constrained manner, assert either adds or removes tuples.
00:17:01 <nfd> just have to decide if i wanna do it in racket (for its dsl features) or haskell
00:17:02 <imode> it'd be trivial to construct things like addition, trees, lists and arrays...
00:17:18 <nfd> neither of which i know super well
00:17:37 <nfd> but i guess my favorite way to learn a language is to use it to write a language
00:17:40 <imode> do it in a language you know well _first_. :P
00:18:36 <nfd> probably not a bad idea, haha
00:18:58 <nfd> i do know a bit of scheme and a bit of haskell. not like i'm operating totally blind here
00:19:20 <imode> thing is, tuplespace stuff like this is really powerful as a paradigm. you could compile a prolog-like language (like what I was attempting) down to it.
00:19:32 <shachaf> nfd: are you nvd's evil twin twh
00:19:46 <imode> then turing completeness is as trivial as implementing a TM.
00:20:22 <nfd> shachaf: haha, you tell me. afraid i don't know them
00:20:25 <nfd> i'm new to this chan
00:20:38 <nfd> not really new to esolangs
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00:23:46 <imode> damnit nfd, you have me looking through my old code again.
00:24:19 <HackEso> nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
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00:29:16 <nfd> so, say each machine fetches one tuple
00:30:32 <nfd> would it be more fun to make each machine output exactly one tuple or zero, one, or two tuples
00:31:09 <nfd> if we take option two, we could add output/termination side effects
00:31:22 <XorSwap> if each machine takes one tuple and puts one tuple, that's not concurrent at all
00:32:08 <nfd> doesn't need to be actually concurrent to be conceptually threaded
00:33:39 <nfd> but if we want to make it actually concurrent, all we need to do is spawn one thread per machine
00:33:50 <nfd> if the tuple bag does its job, we get semaphores for free
00:36:21 <XorSwap> so wait am I getting this right, there's only a finite number of processes?
00:44:38 <nfd> yeah. at most one process/thread per machine. each () -> () statement completely specifies one discrete machine
00:45:14 <nfd> might be worth implementing this in C and pthreads first, actually
00:46:50 <nfd> so if you want multiple hardware threads working on one task at the same time, you just specify the same machine twice
00:48:14 <nfd> (which, frankly, would be a bizarre choice unless you have well-optimized matching)
00:51:27 <nfd> hah, i should write a specification for this before i get implementing
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01:04:17 <imode> tuple rewriting without variable binding is an interesting concept.
01:04:57 <imode> same way that string rewriting would.
01:05:08 <imode> only with disjoint segments of a larger string.
01:08:07 <imode> my question I posed earlier still stands, though. all of this is just a variant of rewriting. it's either rewriting or automata. I've yet to see a truly unique form of computation.
01:09:17 <XorSwap> erlang's concurrency model is the most unique one I know of
01:09:46 <imode> the actor model? I have seen absolutely no formal treatment of it.
01:10:22 <imode> I've just seen vagueness. abstract descriptions. no concrete model to speak of. I tried reading the original (now very scarred and scratched) paper to no avail.
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01:10:57 <imode> I tried pursuing it as an alternative to process calculi, but stopped short because I couldn't find a damn description outside of "there are actors, they communicate via mailboxes."
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01:12:42 <imode> I guess it's a bit of NIH. that there's no real other category of computational models.
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01:15:03 <XorSwap> imode: not concurrent, but here's some food for thought https://suhr.github.io/obsc/
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01:39:09 <imode> that's not really much of a variant, though. stack languages aren't really unique (well, they were for a while...)
01:40:45 <XorSwap> the notion of multiple types of concatonation as well as a haskell-style type system for one is interesting
01:41:23 <imode> right, but it's just all a variant of rewriting to me. I can't feel impressed by it anymore. :(
01:42:03 <XorSwap> I mean, any turing complete system can be turned into term rewriting
01:43:08 <imode> less term rewriting and more just general rewriting.
01:44:10 <imode> like, are there any models of computation that _aren't_ just a variant of a rewriting system, or an automata? even so-called exotic MoCs fall down to rewriting over some kind of structure.
01:45:33 <imode> I have my doubts but that is one of the more unique ones. dataflow in general is.
01:45:49 <imode> I've been working on reducing it to a string rewriting system.
01:45:57 <XorSwap> do you know anything about verilog?
01:45:58 <imode> based on signals and channels.
01:46:05 <imode> yeah, a lot of it. same stuff.
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01:46:43 <imode> the problem is a paradigm like that can either be taken at face-value or reduced to something in the two categories of rewriting or automata.
01:46:51 <XorSwap> I get the feeling that if you spend time reducing things to rewrite systems you're gonna start seeing more things as rewrite systems
01:47:20 <imode> I did the same thing with TMs and various other turing-equivalent automata.
01:47:42 <imode> most paradigms to me can't stand on their merits enough without referring to something in those two categories.
01:47:56 <imode> I'm almost desperate for one that breaks that trend for me.
01:48:32 <imode> breaks down to term rewriting. weird, I know.
01:49:03 <imode> everything in the language is represented as term trees.
01:49:13 <imode> you can even manipulate rules as first-class citizens.
01:49:16 <imode> with some difficulty.
01:49:33 <imode> so it becomes a somewhat unique variant of term rewriting, but still in the category of rewriting.
01:49:44 <XorSwap> at that point you've just made an interpreter in a term rewriting language
01:50:16 <imode> that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. there's always some kind of easy reduction.
01:50:59 <XorSwap> if you're counting interpreting as an easy reduction then every turing complete thing can be reduced to term rewriting
01:51:43 <imode> again, not even terms. just abstract rewriting systems. graphs, trees, strings, multisets..
01:52:02 <imode> the same goes for automata.
01:52:36 <imode> the paradigms that I've seen just aren't enough to stand on their own without referring to some aspect of either category.
01:52:52 <imode> hence why you'll see every language standard reference some abstract machine (automata) or reduce to a rewrite theory (rewriting, obviously).
01:53:10 <imode> it's almost crying out for a third.
01:53:15 <XorSwap> my point is just that if you're looking for something that can't be turned into rewriting somehow all that's left is the stuff above turing complete which you can't really use in the real world
01:54:07 <imode> right, I'm not looking for that. automata and rewriting can be interchanged with some difficulty in either direction. I'm looking for something that stands as some kind of third category to the two already present.
01:55:06 <imode> dataflow is a decent candidate. I don't know of any others. I thought various process calculi were the answer, but they just reduce to term rewriting (by some clever conventions).
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01:56:47 <XorSwap> the game of life would also be a rewrite system but I also know of continuous game of life https://arxiv.org/pdf/1111.1567.pdf
01:56:52 <imode> then again, I don't really know many formal treatments for dataflow. I don't know of any real well-defined models of computation.
01:56:58 <XorSwap> don't know if it's turing complete though
01:57:21 <imode> I can't imagine what the proof would look like. I'd imagine it'd be impressive.
01:59:55 <imode> I guess it's just a nagging doubt in my head that I'll probably need to silence. that "we can't have all of this figured out yet!"
02:03:28 <XorSwap> well the only other models I can think of can't be implemented in the real world so that's all I got man
02:03:57 <imode> I don't expect an easy out. :P
02:05:11 <XorSwap> if you're into parsing at all there's parsing with derivitives
02:05:57 <imode> I saw that posted somewhere a while back. I'll probably look into it tonight.
02:09:26 <imode> eh. this only applies to context-free languages?
02:09:48 <imode> looks like it. looks interesting anyway.
02:10:48 <XorSwap> are there parsers out there doing context sensitive grammars?
02:12:07 <imode> there are parsers out there doing unrestricted grammars. :P
02:12:26 <imode> whether they stop parsing is the real question...
02:13:00 <imode> fun fact: perl's grammar is unrestricted. at least I read that somewhere.
02:13:48 <imode> well, templates are turing complete. I guess template evaluation is undecidable?
02:14:22 <imode> though I guess I can throw that under parsing.
02:15:14 <XorSwap> see I just find it fun knowing that it's possible to take the taylor series of a grammar
02:16:02 <imode> wow. my interest is piqued.
02:19:56 <imode> I should revisit formal language theory.
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02:55:05 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator-precedence_parser#Alternative_methods
02:55:13 <shachaf> This FORTRAN I trick for operator precedence is too good.
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03:23:49 <imode> that is a beautiful hack.
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06:14:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56138&oldid=56122 * Asdf * (+1075) /* Normal implementations */
06:15:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56139&oldid=56138 * Asdf * (-1075) /* Normal implementations */
06:18:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56140&oldid=54620 * Asdf * (+271)
06:18:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56141&oldid=56140 * Asdf * (+39) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? */
06:21:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56142&oldid=56141 * Asdf * (-2) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? */
06:25:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56143&oldid=56142 * Asdf * (-1) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? */
06:26:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56144&oldid=56143 * Asdf * (-17) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? */
06:31:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56145&oldid=56144 * Asdf * (+57) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? */
06:33:23 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56146&oldid=56139 * Asdf * (+119) /* Normal implementations */
06:36:13 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56147&oldid=56146 * Asdf * (+40) /* Normal implementations */
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06:53:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56148&oldid=56145 * Asdf * (+10) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? */
06:56:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56149&oldid=56148 * Asdf * (+36) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? */
06:57:59 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56150&oldid=56149 * Asdf * (+117) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */
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07:48:14 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56151&oldid=55851 * Asdf * (+319) /* C */
07:56:06 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56152&oldid=56151 * Asdf * (+383) /* C */
07:57:06 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56153&oldid=56152 * Asdf * (+13) /* C */
07:59:39 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56154&oldid=56153 * Asdf * (+49) /* C */
08:01:26 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56155&oldid=56154 * Asdf * (+54) /* C */
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08:23:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56156&oldid=56150 * Asdf * (+59) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */
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09:27:24 <int-e> the trouble is that to put code under CC0 it either has to be public domain (or CC0) or have the right to relicense it (basically, be the author)
09:28:45 <int-e> So... how does one prove authorship pseudonymously? :P
09:33:05 <izabera> create a fake identity, pretend to be real, publish under that name
09:43:18 <nfd> ahhhhhh law
09:43:22 <nfd> never gets old
09:59:27 <int-e> huh, I'm now adding an answer to a question by asdf on ais523's talk page... that seems weird :)
09:59:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56157&oldid=56156 * Int-e * (+1027) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */
09:59:50 <int-e> but I have no better idea.
10:05:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PlatinumDotEXE * New user account
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10:15:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56158&oldid=56052 * PlatinumDotEXE * (+443)
10:24:41 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56159&oldid=55455 * PlatinumDotEXE * (+45) /* List of OISCs */
10:31:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56160&oldid=56157 * Int-e * (+11) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */ typos
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13:07:48 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56161&oldid=56159 * Impomatic * (+87) /* List of OISCs */
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17:33:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56162&oldid=56137 * BoutonIA * (+11) /* B */ Add BSoD
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23:50:09 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56163&oldid=56160 * Ais523 * (+326) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */ yes you did
23:52:19 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56164&oldid=56161 * Ais523 * (-6) /* List of OISCs */ you don't use = together with += or -= in most languages; in this case, though, -- is probably clearer
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06:04:41 <esowiki> [[GolfScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56165&oldid=50766 * Asdf * (+98) /* Examples */
06:12:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56166&oldid=56163 * Asdf * (+388) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */
06:15:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56167&oldid=56166 * Asdf * (+2) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */
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06:35:17 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56168&oldid=56155 * Asdf * (+279) /* Python 3.x */
06:38:55 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56169&oldid=56168 * Asdf * (+15) /* Python 3.x */
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06:46:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56170&oldid=56130 * Asdf * (+408) /* Examples */
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06:57:20 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56171&oldid=55584 * Saka * (+67)
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07:20:16 <esowiki> [[User:Asdf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56172 * Asdf * (+147) Created page with "{{Stubs}} There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or create this page."
07:20:27 <esowiki> [[User:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56173&oldid=56172 * Asdf * (-1)
07:20:59 <esowiki> [[User:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56174&oldid=56173 * Asdf * (-129)
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07:22:56 <esowiki> [[User:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56175&oldid=56174 * Asdf * (-17) Blanked the page
07:23:21 <esowiki> [[User:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56176&oldid=56175 * Asdf * (+8)
07:30:28 <esowiki> [[Tape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56177&oldid=44855 * Asdf * (+9)
07:31:52 <esowiki> [[Simplack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56178 * Saka * (+2304) Created page with "'''Simplack''' is a simple, stack-based language created by [[User:Saka]]. Simplack is designed to be easy to learn. == Basics == In Simplack, only integers can be stored in..."
07:33:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:About]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56179&oldid=53562 * Asdf * (+7)
07:34:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:About]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56180&oldid=56179 * Asdf * (+2)
07:35:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56181&oldid=56113 * Asdf * (+9)
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07:55:55 <HackEso> A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
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08:27:19 <imode> I don't think you can perform graph rewriting without some kind of variable binding.
08:27:29 <imode> at least, when describing it in text.
08:28:26 <imode> I do think you might be able to specify rules based on rooted trees, and you can generate stuff like cycles in a convoluted way.
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13:31:19 <xirg> wtf is this widsom pdf.exe
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13:58:43 <int-e> wisdom.pdf is "A COMPENDIUMME OF WISDOMME KNOWLEDGES" - I think that explains all ;-)
13:58:47 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
14:00:41 <HackEso> Brains are just receptacles for bricks.
14:04:54 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56182&oldid=56171 * Saka * (+15)
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14:17:12 <esowiki> [[Simplack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56183&oldid=56178 * Saka * (+1947) /* Python */
14:18:11 <esowiki> [[Simplack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56184&oldid=56183 * Saka * (+73) /* Python */
14:38:55 <esowiki> [[1argasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56185&oldid=56136 * Plokmijnuhby * (+226) /* main vocabulary */
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14:52:02 <esowiki> [[Unilot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56186&oldid=56131 * Plokmijnuhby * (-1) /* Overwiew */
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14:55:33 <wab_jonas> I'm part of the same exclusive club that some of you #esoteric already are: I've spent time in a psychiatric closed ward as an inmate.
14:56:02 <wab_jonas> I'm now in the open ward and might leave in a few days, but just thought you might want to know.
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15:01:24 <APic> wab_jonas: My Condolences
15:02:05 * APic was in such Madhouses about 10 Times
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15:20:54 <wob_jonas> I've been in closed ward for c.10 days, until a bed in open ward got freed up. Will tell you about the bad experiences later, but still takes a few days till I can get home. I'm actually just typing on my brother's notebook now.
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17:34:13 <\oren\> best flowchart software
17:35:17 <zzo38> I don't know. I don't know if I will write one later either, or if you can use TeX, either
17:37:26 <int-e> \oren\: no clue... dia is worth a look, perhaps
17:57:41 <\oren\> int-e: nvm I used a sheet of paper and took a picture with my phone
17:59:42 <int-e> proper use of technology
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18:10:16 <zzo38> I thought of how a algorithm can compute y=e^x by initializing v=1 and n=0 and then you can use a C or JavaScript code in a loop like y+=v*=x/++n and then, a variant of such algorithm can be made up for use with integer arithmetic too, by using fixed point perhaps. I am guessing similar things to what I mention may have been done before. Do you know about these kind of things?
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18:12:26 <int-e> zzo38: I know a little; another useful formula is e^x = (e^(x/2))^2, to help the other sequence converge.
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18:13:07 <int-e> lambdabot: now what happened to you...
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18:14:55 <int-e> ah. [ERROR] Plugin.irc: Ping timeout.
18:15:08 <int-e> lambdabot: Fair enough, that's a valid reason to reconnect :)
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18:20:52 <zzo38> int-e: What "other sequence" do you mean exactly?
18:21:05 <zzo38> I do not immediately see how to use that another useful formula.
18:23:23 <int-e> zzo38: y+=v*=x/++n is evaluating the 1 + x + x^2/2 + x^3/3! + ... sequence
18:23:40 <int-e> zzo38: which converges more rapidly if x is small.
18:26:01 <zzo38> Yes, I know that; that is why I wrote that code. O, now I suppose I can see, that you can make x small now
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18:39:35 <shachaf> int-e: i hear lambdabot got kicked from #haskell hth
18:40:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56187&oldid=56167 * Ais523 * (+650) /* How can I paste my own code on this wiki? (I didn't violate others' copyright) */ reply
18:41:34 <int-e> shachaf: and did you check whether it has returned in the meantime?
18:42:34 <int-e> shachaf: (this would have been useful to know between 7 3/4 and 16 hours ago)
18:43:14 <shachaf> I did check, and I saw that both you and lambdabot returned.
18:43:25 <shachaf> this was a joke reply to "what happened to you"
18:44:59 <int-e> shachaf: I didn't connect the two incidents because my question was really about lambdabot being gone for 4 minutes just before.
18:45:26 <int-e> But I did have a decent chance to get it and failed :-/
18:50:27 <esowiki> [[Subterra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56188&oldid=49187 * Ais523 * (+541) it's TC
18:51:27 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56189&oldid=54596 * ZM * (-11)
18:51:54 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56190&oldid=56189 * ZM * (-57)
18:54:41 <esowiki> [[TwoDucks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56191&oldid=46425 * Ais523 * (-80) remove incorrect category and nonexistent category (computational class is not unknown, it's definitely undecidable)
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19:06:18 <esowiki> [[GolfScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56192&oldid=56165 * Ais523 * (-98) Undo revision 56165 by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]): Copyright violation
19:06:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of a revision on page [[GolfScript]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
19:07:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56193&oldid=56181 * Ais523 * (+420) final warning re copyvio
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19:11:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56194&oldid=56170 * Ais523 * (-408) Undo revision 56170 by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]): a) this should not be a section of its own (there's an "examples" section); b) it doesn't actually work (for at least two separate reasons)
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19:28:19 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56195&oldid=56134 * ZM * (+694) Restrictions added
19:28:34 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56196&oldid=56195 * ZM * (-14)
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19:34:13 <ZM> I was going to insert a sneaky link to ♦/~ on ♦
19:34:25 <ZM> but I lost it in the preview window :/
19:37:23 <ZM> found it, but decided against actually doing it
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19:44:31 <arseniiv> ZM’s language is surprisingly neat!
19:55:28 <zzo38> Do you mean Andromeda? It look like good to me
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20:00:57 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, a picture of a Trondheimcat
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20:31:35 <zzo38> I figured out how the CloudFlare email protection is working, it order that it can be decoded even if the JavaScripts in the document aren't allowed to execute.
20:34:42 <zzo38> For some reason some email addresses in the same document are not protected, and I found one that decodes into a list of m and so on
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22:43:33 <lambdabot> CYUL 292200Z 27011G19KT 30SM FEW045 FEW250 31/14 A2987 RMK CU1CI2 CU TR SLP115 DENSITY ALT 2100FT
22:43:47 <lambdabot> KOAK 292153Z 29015KT 10SM CLR 22/12 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP124 T02220117
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00:24:13 <oerjan> hm, forgot to log out again
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00:35:13 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56197&oldid=56169 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Python 3.x */ Fix common error
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00:37:23 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56198&oldid=56196 * Oerjan * (+15) Fix red link
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01:52:16 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, a picture of a Trondheimcat <-- what?
01:56:40 <shachaf> Someone posted a picture of a cat in Trondheim.
01:56:57 <shachaf> Just, y'know, on the Internet.
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02:50:46 <esowiki> [[Simplack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56199&oldid=56184 * Saka * (-1957) /* Python */
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05:10:55 <zzo38> I had another idea. If the instruction pointer hits a uppercase letter then it turns clockwise, if a lowercase letter then it turns counterclockwise; in either case, it and the rest of its group are toggled between uppercase/lowercase after the instruction pointer is moved; the group consists of it and all other same letters (case-insensitive) within a Chebyshev distance <= 2, and also the same group as those ones too.
05:11:37 <zzo38> (So that the entire group is connected in this way as long as they are linked by Chebyshev distance <= 2 even if the full distance of the group > 100)
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12:27:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * A * New user account
12:28:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56200&oldid=56158 * A * (+113)
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14:15:39 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56201&oldid=56182 * Saka * (+34)
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20:38:48 <esowiki> [[TwoDucks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56202&oldid=56191 * Plokmijnuhby * (+1002)
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21:40:15 <zzo38> ZZT switches into another video mode so that each character has only eight columns instead of nine; how to do that switch in a BASIC code?
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22:01:27 <fizzie> If the question was about the VGA 8/9-column switch, just from theory I think it should be something like OUT &H3C4, 1 : x% = INP(&H3C5) : OUT &H3C5, (x% OR 1) -- not tested at all, though.
22:11:14 <zzo38> (I did guess probably the OUT command has to be used, but did not know what numbers to specify; now you mention it thank you)
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22:25:52 <zzo38> Some protocol for decentralized censorship-resistant permanent archival of Unusenet messages should be defined. Do you know how?
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23:44:16 <fizzie> I'm not sure about that, but the VGA numbers came from the FreeVGA documents. The normal site seems to be down, but there's a copy here: https://web.stanford.edu/class/cs140/projects/pintos/specs/freevga/vga/vga.htm
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