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02:16:56 <HackEso> 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
02:17:59 <oerjan> `` doag UnicodeData.txt
02:18:01 <HackEso> 9832:2016-12-03 <shachäf> ` mv UnicodeData.txt share/ \ 9831:2016-12-03 <shachäf> fetch ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 9190:2016-10-06 <oerjän> ` rm Unic* \ 9189:2016-10-06 <oerjän> fetch http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 8621:2016-06-27 <oerjän> fetch http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/9.0.0/ucd/UnicodeData.txt \ 4576:2014-04-17 <Jafët> mv bin/unicode{,.old}
02:18:20 <shachaf> Wait, why did that not work?
02:18:43 <oerjan> `` doag share/UnicodeData.txt
02:18:45 <HackEso> 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
02:20:04 <shachaf> Hmm, we can't do FUSE on HackEso, I suppose.
02:20:04 <oerjan> `fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
02:20:21 <shachaf> But I could write an LD_PRELOAD sort of wrapper to make a virtual filesystem.
02:20:34 <oerjan> oh doesn't it support ftp?
02:20:49 <oerjan> `doag share/UnicodeData.txt
02:20:51 <HackEso> 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
02:21:42 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidemulticode: not found
02:21:54 <oerjan> that character seriously messes with my terminal
02:22:08 <shachaf> My terminal doesn't even show it.
02:22:11 <HackEso> Sequence '\xf0\x9f\x8e\x89' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:22:39 <oerjan> something alercah tried
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02:23:14 <HackEso> Sequence '\xf0\x9f\x8e\x89' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:23:31 <oerjan> there's something weird happening with it
02:24:05 <HackEso> Sequence '\xf0\x9f\x8e\x89' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:24:20 <HackEso> Sequence '\xcf\x89' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:24:44 <HackEso> defenestration:Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials. \ interpreter:An interpreter (Latin "inter-", Old French "prestre") is unofficial correspondence between ordained members of the Church. \ nepeta leijon:Nepeta Leijon is the maintainer of the official Alternian shipping wall. \ ꙮ:ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
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02:24:56 <HackEso> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
02:25:09 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:25:44 <shachaf> unidecode doesn't use UnicodeData.txt
02:27:27 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.19061
02:28:12 <HackEso> Tue May 1 02:28:12 UTC 2018
02:28:34 <HackEso> LANG= \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="POSIX" \ LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" \ LC_TIME="POSIX" \ LC_COLLATE="POSIX" \ LC_MONETARY="POSIX" \ LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" \ LC_PAPER="POSIX" \ LC_NAME="POSIX" \ LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" \ LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" \ LC_ALL=
02:29:22 <HackEso> af \ an \ ar \ as \ ast \ bal \ be \ be@latin \ bg \ bn \ bn_IN \ br \ bs \ ca \ cs \ cy \ da \ de \ dz \ el \ en@boldquot \ en@quot \ en_GB \ en_US \ eo \ es \ et \ eu \ fa \ fi \ fr \ ga \ gd \ gl \ gu \ he \ hi \ hr \ hu \ ia \ id \ is \ it \ ja \ ka \ kk \ km \ kn \ ko \ ks \ ku \ ky \ lg \ lt \ lv \ mai \ mg \ mk \ ml \ mr \ ms \ nb \ nds \ ne \ nl \ nn \ or \ pa \ pl \ pt \ pt_BR \ rm \ ro \ ru \ rw \ si \ sk \ sl \ sq \ sr \ sr@latin \ sv \ sw \ ta
02:29:26 <HackEso> 2/2: ta \ te \ tg \ th \ tl \ tr \ uk \ ur \ vi \ wa \ zh_CN \ zh_HK \ zh_TW \ zu
02:30:54 <shachaf> `` LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 locale
02:30:55 <HackEso> locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG= \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8" \ LC_ADD
02:31:09 <shachaf> i don't know the details of how locales work tdnh
02:31:39 <oerjan> `` LANG=en_US.UTF-8 multicode ꙮ
02:31:40 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:31:52 <oerjan> `` LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 multicode ꙮ
02:31:53 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:32:45 <oerjan> `` LC_ALL=en_GB.UTF-8 multicode ꙮ
02:32:47 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:32:55 <oerjan> `` LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 multicode ꙮ
02:32:56 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:33:14 <oerjan> ok i'm guessing the locale isn't quite the right place
02:34:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/multicode
02:38:39 <oerjan> `` multicode ꙮ </dev/null
02:38:40 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
02:38:52 <oerjan> that program is too hairy for me.
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02:48:46 <shachaf> int-e: So these Beatty sequences (when applied to all reals, not just irrationals) can be used to construct the reals.
02:49:01 <shachaf> Or rather equivalence classes of them.
02:50:17 <shachaf> And then you get multiplication by composing them.
02:51:52 <shachaf> f ~ g if the image of f - g is bounded (i.e. finite).
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09:58:19 <fizzie> The system as a whole had some locale bits missing. That's now fixed, but I've not managed to locate where the default locale used to be set.
09:58:25 <fizzie> `` LANG=en_US.UTF-8 multicode ꙮ
09:58:26 <HackEso> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ (ꙮ) \ Uppercase: U+A66E \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
09:58:40 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
10:00:45 <fizzie> The multibot process has LANG set, but I don't remember anymore how that's supposed to flow through to UML.
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11:00:15 <izabera> my submission for next year's ioccc is gonna be a program that prints a calendar
11:00:56 <Taneb> ioccc versions of all unix utilities
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17:07:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vasilescur * New user account
17:10:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54955&oldid=54947 * Vasilescur * (+276) /* Introductions */
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19:25:58 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54956&oldid=54692 * DMC * (+92) /* Description */
19:27:06 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54957&oldid=54956 * DMC * (+32) /* Description */
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22:08:42 <wob_jonas> Hi guys. I have a software recommendation question. I want to make a multi-page PDF from a set of color jpeg images, one for each page, in such a way that the jpegs aren't recompressed or converted, but embedded in the pdf as is.
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22:08:59 <wob_jonas> What should I use for this? Should I use pdftex?
22:09:35 <wob_jonas> Ideally I'd also like to be able to specify the page size and the offset of the image on the page individually per page, but that's not essential.
22:10:35 <wob_jonas> Alternately, if this is not possible, I'd like an explanation for that.
22:11:08 <wob_jonas> (eg. if pdf is like mjpeg and doesn't accept arbitrary jpeg quantization tables, but I don't think it's like that)
22:13:45 <wob_jonas> Oh, and I'd prefer if I could run the software on linux.
22:18:00 <fizzie> I've used Scribus for something slightly like that, and I have a hunch it was capable of embedding JPEGs instead of re-encoding or anything like that.
22:18:09 <fizzie> But I'm not 100% sure, and a quick search couldn't confirm.
22:18:53 <HackEso> Sequence '\xea\x99\xae' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
22:19:01 <shachaf> fizzie: what's going on with locale/encoding/whatever twh
22:19:26 <fizzie> shachaf: There were two things going on; I fixed one of them, but the other is still going on.
22:20:57 <shachaf> `` python -c 'import codecs, sys; utf8 = codecs.getreader("utf8"); print utf8(sys.stdin).encoding'
22:21:44 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think one was that the files for some locales weren't installed in /usr
22:21:54 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I made an empty Scribus document, added an image frame, inserted a .jpg image, exported the document as PDF, run "pdfimages -j" on it, and the resulting .jpg file is identical to the source one, so I think it worked.
22:22:20 <wob_jonas> fizzie: nice! I definitely need multiple pages, but I guess that will work
22:22:50 <fizzie> shachaf: Yes, the "locales" package wasn't installed. So if you explicitly set the locale, it will now work.
22:22:59 <fizzie> `` env LANG=en_US.UTF-8 multicode ꙮ
22:23:00 <HackEso> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ (ꙮ) \ Uppercase: U+A66E \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
22:23:11 <wob_jonas> I need to do some other preparations on the jpegs I have first, but that sounds good
22:23:37 <fizzie> shachaf: The part that doesn't work is setting the default locale. I can't figure out how it used to get set inside the umlbox. It's definitely set in the environment of the multibot process.
22:27:59 <fizzie> I have a feeling the "en_NZ.UTF-8" thing might've been a HackEgo customization that's not in the source code that's in the repositories.
22:29:15 <fizzie> That's what you get from not having verifiable binaries.
22:29:41 <shachaf> text/2013-11-04.txt:05:04:59: <oerjan> zzo38: we asked Gregor to set it so that HackEgo could use utf-8, and he chose en_NZ to be funny
22:30:48 <fizzie> Logs suggest it was done by simply prepending "env LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 " to the command before passing it to umlbox.
22:31:20 <fizzie> So maybe in lib/sandbox, together with the bit where it sets PATH, HACKENV and http_proxy.
22:31:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I assume you've already downloaded http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020180413.txt
22:32:13 <shachaf> text/2012-12-07.txt:21:34:25: <Gregor> Basically, if the first byte starts with 110, and the second byte starts with 10, then it's valid UTF-8.
22:32:26 <wob_jonas> by the way, I haven't done the tests on ff-composite yet because I was away during the long weekend, sorry
22:32:28 <shachaf> Gregor: except if it encodes a value <256 hth
22:33:08 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think you mean <128 hth
22:33:40 <HackEso> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ (ꙮ) \ Uppercase: U+A66E \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
22:33:41 <shachaf> I think it was pretty clear that I meant that, though.
22:33:51 <shachaf> fizzie: You could return it to fi_FI.UTF-8
22:34:22 <fizzie> I made it en_NZ since there's precedent.
22:34:34 <fizzie> (The system's default locale is en_GB.UTF-8.)
22:34:35 <shachaf> There's also precedent for fi_FI.UTF-8
22:34:42 <shachaf> Which I didn't know about until looking in the logs just now.
22:34:51 <fizzie> I didn't know that either.
22:35:51 <HackEso> cat: /etc/timezone: No such file or directory
22:36:10 <fizzie> /etc isn't bound in the umlbox.
22:36:13 <HackEso> Tue May 1 22:36:12 UTC 2018
22:36:16 <fizzie> (Just /etc/alternatives.)
22:38:02 <fizzie> (From the umlbox -B option, which does read-only hostfs mounts of "/usr", "/bin", "/sbin", "/lib", "/lib32", "/lib64", "/etc/alternatives", "/dev".)
22:38:03 <wob_jonas> fizzie: then how would libc know where to look for a DNS when asked to resolve hostnames?
22:38:17 <fizzie> There's no networking, so.
22:38:32 <wob_jonas> fizzie: doesn't it also have a file system on / though?
22:39:08 <fizzie> So why would resolving hostnames need to work?
22:39:25 <fizzie> There is a root filesystem, but it's only got init in it.
22:39:38 <fizzie> (And the mountpoints, which are generated by init.)
22:40:03 <wob_jonas> you could need to resolve localhost or something
22:40:24 <fizzie> Maybe. Never been a problem so far, though.
22:40:49 <wob_jonas> is that hardcoded or is it only /etc/hosts that tells what it means, I wonder
22:41:08 <HackEso> Linux (none) 4.9.82 #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018 x86_64 GNU/Linux
22:42:03 <HackEso> dnsdomainname: Name or service not known
22:43:39 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn join".", unpack "C*", gethostbyname("localhost")
22:43:40 <HackEso> Warning: something's wrong at -e line 1.
22:43:51 <wob_jonas> it can't actually resolve localhost
22:43:57 <shachaf> `` /usr/bin/wget -O - 'http://localhost/'
22:43:58 <HackEso> --2018-05-01 22:43:58-- http://localhost/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... failed: Network is unreachable.
22:44:14 <wob_jonas> yeah, it's possible that the interface doesn't even exist
22:44:31 <HackEso> BASH_ARGV=([0]="set | grep -i proxy") \ cmd='set | grep -i proxy' \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128
22:44:36 <HackEso> 1: lo: <LOOPBACK> mtu 65536 qdisc noop state DOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1 \ link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
22:44:56 <wob_jonas> so I think you couldn't even make an ip socket to localhost
22:46:17 <fizzie> It networks over a tty.
22:48:25 <wob_jonas> that reminds me of the time X couldn't start because I accidentally configured the kernel to disable SysVIPC (as in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/svipc.7.html )
22:50:23 <fizzie> umlbox has a thing where it runs "umlbox-mudem" which does a set of TCP port forwardings over a single bidirectional file descriptor, and configures the uml tty2 to be used for that. Except I've not set that up.
22:51:47 <wob_jonas> fizzie: you could also set up a network tunnel that lets it communicate with certain services you run outside the sandbox, but not with the internet in general
22:52:22 <fizzie> Heh, actually, the umlbox script adds a "run root / /sbin/ifconfig lo 127.0.0.1" line to the config file the UML's init reads.
22:52:36 <fizzie> But /sbin/ifconfig doesn't exist on that machine, so it just fails.
22:52:39 <wob_jonas> such as if you wanted to make fetch be able to work as an actual command inside the box
22:52:56 <fizzie> (Otherwise the loopback interface would actually be up.)
22:53:18 <fizzie> Yes, it's modern that way.
22:59:44 <esowiki> [[Procedural Footnote Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54958 * Vasilescur * (+11272) Created page
23:02:40 <esowiki> [[Procedural Footnote Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54959&oldid=54958 * Vasilescur * (+88)
23:04:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54960&oldid=54943 * Vasilescur * (+35)
23:05:18 <Cale> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=459
23:05:22 <HackEso> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
23:09:23 <shachaf> Did you get the Super Mega book?
23:25:58 <Cale> It was great, but I'm a little sad that it didn't have my favourite SM comic of all time in it
23:26:04 <Cale> which is the one about the one-sided die
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23:27:45 <shachaf> I don't remember that one.
23:28:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's http://supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=382 according to google search
23:30:28 <shachaf> There were a few I was sad that it was missing.
23:30:44 <shachaf> I don't remember whether it had Double Damage.
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02:02:49 <oerjan> `python -cprint "Test"
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02:25:28 <Guest1_> `python -cprint(__import__('os').getcwd())`
02:25:29 <HackEso> File "<string>", line 1 \ print(__import__('os').getcwd())` \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
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02:26:43 <Downgoat> `` sudo apt-get install nodejs && npm i -g cheddar-lang && cheddar -c "print 'foo'"
02:26:44 <HackEso> sudo: effective uid is not 0, is /usr/bin/sudo on a file system with the 'nosuid' option set or an NFS file system without root privileges?
02:29:51 <Downgoat> does the bot spawn a new container or something every command?
02:30:09 <HackEso> Downgoat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:30:29 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
02:30:33 <HackEso> HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo.
02:31:41 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:32:18 <HackEso> \? "$(echo "$1" | sed 's/^[^`]/`&/')"
02:32:48 <shachaf> I think that one is built-in?
02:35:03 <shachaf> @tell fizzie to fix the URL in `help twh
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03:39:56 <oerjan> Downgoat: there also isn't any network access from the sandbox
03:40:25 <HackEso> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
03:40:59 <HackEso> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
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05:24:23 <oerjan> you know you're doing good haskell golfing when you're turning "" into {-#LANGUAGE CPP#-}(\(_:_:_:_:_:_:_:_:z)->z)__TIME__
05:25:02 <oerjan> (there _might_ be some slight restrictions applying, like not being able to use the character ")
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05:26:06 <oerjan> (or =, or any lower case vowel, to mention some other important ones)
05:27:06 <oerjan> the upshot being, that you can actually write 3 haskell quines that have no common characters.
05:30:58 <shachaf> oerjan: [] isn't permitted either?
05:31:08 <oerjan> no, that was used in quine 2
05:36:27 <oerjan> quine 1, incidentally, is putStr`mappend`print`id`"putStr`mappend`print`id`"
05:36:36 <oerjan> the others are quite a bit longer
05:37:01 <shachaf> Is this a programming pooch code goldfish?
05:37:23 <oerjan> i haven't posted it yet, though, needs some more golfing
05:38:29 <shachaf> I posted another M: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2762669/how-to-think-of-the-trace-of-a-linear-map-as-connecting-its-output-back-to-its-o
05:43:20 <shachaf> I was going to suggest any number of empty programs.
05:43:28 <shachaf> But apparently that's a forbidden loophole.
05:44:05 <oerjan> even one character is forbidden
05:44:47 <oerjan> two is a bit borderline
05:55:55 <shachaf> oerjan: a haskell quine requires main= hth
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06:04:03 <oerjan> shachaf: this challenge allows function submissions
06:04:37 <oerjan> which i'm interpreting to include IO actions, although i do hopefully have a workaround if someone quibbles on that.
06:05:13 <shachaf> You have the Haskell Report's support for that interpretation.
06:05:35 <shachaf> https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch7.html#x14-1430007.1
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10:37:29 <HackEso> 1/2:olist//olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html \ welcome.is//Halló og verið velkomin á hinn alþjóðlegann miðpunkt fyrir esoteríska forritunarmálshönnun og dreifingu. Meiri upplýsingar er hægt að nálgast á wikinu <http://esolangs.org/>. (Fyrir annarskonar esoterík prufið #esoteric á EFnet eða DALnet.) \ e//e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agor
10:40:27 <HackEso> 2/2:a player. \ beer//Beer never ships from Québec. \ cooperate//"Cooperate" is a common misspelling of "cōöperāte".
10:42:00 <boily> `le/rn beer//Beer always ships from strange lands. It just has to be thawed first.
10:42:04 <HackEso> Relearned 'beer': Beer always ships from strange lands. It just has to be thawed first.
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13:53:23 <myname> "In mathematics, two objects [...] are called cryptomorphic if they are equivalent but not obviously equivalent." i should bring that one up more often in proofs
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20:00:25 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54961&oldid=54871 * DMC * (-38) /* Description */
20:22:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Alphabet Stew]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54962 * DMC * (+117) Created page with "[[User:DMC]] I think somebody, somewhere, has probably created a language called Alphabet Soup. So I didn't use that."
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22:40:43 <fungot> boily: also, as described in this
22:40:54 <boily> fungot: your nostrils are very describable.
22:40:54 <fungot> boily: a notice of delegation, the
23:10:24 <esowiki> [[Procedural Footnote Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54963&oldid=54959 * Ais523 * (+1227) computational class
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23:12:58 <int-e> lambdabot: you're more trouble than you're worth, you know that?
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23:17:19 <int-e> lambdabot: I mean look at this wonderful build failure, https://travis-ci.org/lambdabot/lambdabot/jobs/374182215
23:17:50 <fungot> int-e: ( -v) when a rule requires a player assigns a judgement to a slc is that card's holder and holds that office
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23:18:53 <int-e> boily: welcome to the twilight zone.
23:19:42 <int-e> I did not do that to lambdabot. The log reports a ping timeout.
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23:23:03 <arseniiv> thank spirits there’s no mubot or nubot (that especially)
23:23:44 <arseniiv> lest the channel would become codata
23:24:51 <arseniiv> OTOH a like infinity : νx.1+x, infinity = inr inr inr …
23:27:07 <arseniiv> it’s charming, and extended naturals (νx.1+x) allows to abstract over timeout or “step timeout” in evaluators/launchers/etc.: you can specify a finite timeout/step count, or you can specify ∞, and the code of the evaluating thing would be the same,
23:27:59 <arseniiv> and it will be using a destructor of νx.1+x, prec: νx.1+x → 1 + (νx.1+x)
23:28:44 <arseniiv> so either you finally prec to ∗ : 1 (step zero reached, there is no more) or you prec infinitely
23:31:41 <arseniiv> oh, also could I say something to some bot here to them reminding me to look at the logs when I’m back?
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00:13:30 <wob_jonas> aglist http://abstrusegoose.com/587 => ah nice. and it's even slightly connected to today's https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/candyland , because there the bearded guy thinks being omniscient takes the excitement out of games
00:15:27 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> you can actually write 3 haskell quines that have no common characters." => oh wow! that I'd like to see.
00:15:41 <wob_jonas> this is about https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/153948/6691 for context
00:16:22 <wob_jonas> and yes, the lowercase vowels are an important limit
00:19:30 <wob_jonas> "<arseniiv> it’s charming, and extended naturals (νx.1+x) allows to abstract over timeout or “step timeout” in evaluators/launchers/etc.: you can specify a finite timeout/step count, or you can specify ∞, and the code of the evaluating thing would be the same," => I can use ordinary natural numbers for that. just set the timeout to a very large val
00:20:05 <oerjan> wob_jonas: actually https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/163607/
00:20:24 <oerjan> i haven't posted mine yet though
00:20:35 <wob_jonas> which reminds me of a failed attempt of that, http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/twarrior.html (short story Twarrior by Andy Weir)
00:22:40 <wob_jonas> oerjan: oh nice. I should think of whether I can find three mutually exclusive ways of printing in perl. using the loophole where you write a function instead of printing output would be nice, but it doesn't seem to help here because it's really hard to define a useful subroutine without using the keyword "sub"
00:23:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Are trigraphs permitted?
00:23:43 <wob_jonas> they want independent quines that print themselves
00:23:44 <shachaf> I guess that only helps you in the program with {-# LANGUAGE CPP #-}.
00:23:53 <wob_jonas> it might be possible to find three of those in perl
00:24:18 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think so, would require an extra option.
00:24:50 <oerjan> and that option includes a lower case p iirc
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00:27:15 <wob_jonas> still needs the three ways to print or sub though
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00:29:00 <wob_jonas> I can see why it's easier in ruby, with its $><< nonsense
00:29:15 <wob_jonas> and so many redundant built-in methods in general
00:33:29 <wob_jonas> wait, the top score for ruby is only 2 so far?
00:34:17 <wob_jonas> it must be possible to improve that
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05:55:50 <shachaf> `` ln -s 'off by two' wisdom/'off by two error'
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09:41:27 <HackEso> ysaclist 75: boily shachaf
09:41:37 <shachaf> Cale: Should you be on ysaclist? Seems like it might be up your alley.
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09:45:23 <Cale> shachaf: does that refer to You Suck at Cooking?
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10:04:00 <Cale> I probably don't need notifications beyond a youtube subscription for that
10:04:29 <shachaf> Oh, if you use YouTube subscriptions I guess that works for you.
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10:11:13 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I'm not sure yet, but I think three quines might be possible in perl. My idea is that the first one would go like eval~'...' , the second one like sub{{s///}...{s///}/(.*)/} and the third could have all the useful characters like dollar sign and equals and digits and print chr
10:11:48 <wob_jonas> I'll be interested in threeing the three Haskell quines though. That one sounds much harder than three perl quines.
10:12:48 <Cale> shachaf: I've found that if I turn off history and use subscriptions, YouTube's recommendations are more predictable and of higher quality.
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10:13:24 <Cale> (though most of the time, they're just things which are somewhere in my subscriptions anyway)
10:13:33 <shachaf> Sounds plausible, but I only use YouTube logged out anyway.
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11:51:16 <arseniiv> wob_jonas> but you never know if some big number is enough! (Okay, sometimes you do.) OTOH ∞ is always enough! ::)
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13:07:15 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: most computer hardware we have won't be able to live for more than a thousand years. (ten years is more typical, but we want a safe upper bound.) and even if you pay extra for long-lasting hardware and regularly maintaining it, you probably can't make it live for longer than 10**11 years.
13:08:09 <wob_jonas> And if you don't care about those physical constraints, then what gives you the right to use generalized natural numbers as the delay in the program, but not assume that it's meaningful to run the program for a generalized natural number of cycles?
13:09:26 <wob_jonas> The case of Twarrior only failed because someone was lazy and used too small a number. That could also happen if your program uses fixints that don't allow you to set a long enough interval, but this is probably less relevant these days than it used to be on the more limited hardware of the 80s.
13:13:42 <Taneb> wob_jonas: what if you're a radical anti-platonist and believe that numbers are not real in any sense?
13:15:42 <wob_jonas> Taneb: um, "numbers are not real" how? do you mean just someone who's agnostic about ultrafinitism, thinking that 10**(10**100) might not exist? because even those people believe that a number so small as to serve as the timeout in a program exists.
13:15:52 <wob_jonas> or someone who thinks computers aren't real either?
13:16:13 <wob_jonas> I don't understand, because I never believed that numbers weren't real.
13:16:17 <Taneb> wob_jonas: the latter, anything that claims to be manipulating numbers is just guessing and making things up
13:17:22 <wob_jonas> ah, so one who thinks that science doesn't work and we aren't able to make valid predictions about the future because we can't be sure that we have correctly determined the laws of physics?
13:17:28 <wob_jonas> are there people who are both like that and are programmers?
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14:36:48 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: ah, fair about technological and physical limits. I didn’t think about them this time. Still, to be sure with finite naturals, one have to know what numbers are sufficiently big. It may be a quick arithmetic, it may be worse in some hypothetical case :)
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14:41:29 <arseniiv> but not assume that it's meaningful to run the program for a generalized natural number of cycles?> you mean, if I assume a program can run for an infinite time and still return something? Yeah, or course I don’t, unless we’d aquire something more potent than a Turing-complete system allows us
14:46:14 <arseniiv> also, in a lazy language we can use extended naturals in place of normal Peano ones, if we’re careful enough. There too, I’m more focused on an idea rather than on its application possibilities
14:49:11 <arseniiv> I mean, we could take ∞ = fix Succ and throw it somewhere where data is awaited, and that code could be written so well that it will eat ∞ too
14:50:36 <arseniiv> not that it’s something untrivial, I’m just glad about small things
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15:48:38 <Cale> shachaf: have you seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHZr6P1csiY already?
15:50:09 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1bEWoblGZA haha, I missed this one too
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19:51:03 <zzo38> Science doesn't work perfectly (for the reasons mentioned), but it does wokr well, and it does work better than the other way. Mathematics is better but it doesn't make the scientific experiment to try to figure out what is the law of physics that is why you need the science.
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20:38:29 <wob_jonas> oh nice, oerjan posted https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/164114/6691
20:40:47 <shachaf> Can you post a non-referral link so I can click?
20:41:12 <shachaf> My phone makes it tricky to copy and paste links.
20:42:15 <wob_jonas> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/164114/
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21:02:51 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Did you test my changes to ff-composite.c?
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00:44:10 <zzo38> I made a lot more work on "Game of XYZABCDE" (although still is not quite finish being made, yet). You have fallen from the sky because your wing suddenly broke when you were trying to go to Mornington Crescent and now you are badly injured. But, this is ZZT so there are magic diamonds that can help you!
00:46:27 <shachaf> Oops, I was going to suggest a golf but I just realized it doesn't work.
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00:56:52 <zzo38> If you push zero to try to call the operator, they call the operetta instead.
00:58:27 <oerjan> i just tested something with ghci (still on 8.0.1 something so might have been fixed), apparently ^G is a legal identifier character, i think that's a bug.
00:59:01 <oerjan> (i was seeing if there were any control characters that could work instead of newline, might have shortened quine 2)
00:59:45 <oerjan> time to check the response...
00:59:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you disallowing __LINE__ because it depends on the context?
01:01:41 <oerjan> actually i didn't think too much about it, after i saw __TIME__ had a guaranteed length
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01:03:25 <oerjan> hm no one's commented, i guess that means no one's worried about the few half-fishy things i did
01:04:19 <oerjan> (in particular not having any delimiter after the pragma)
01:04:20 <shachaf> You mean having both an IO action and functions of one unused argument?
01:04:54 <shachaf> It's not just that there's no delimiter, really. The pragma and the rest of the program need to be separated.
01:04:58 <oerjan> the IO action, but other do the same thing so i didn't really expect any trouble.
01:05:09 <oerjan> shachaf: it actually doesn't, check the TIO
01:05:43 <oerjan> it's completely legal to put a definition on the same line, although it wreaks havoc on the indentation
01:05:52 <oerjan> the Try it online link
01:06:06 <oerjan> (legal haskell, that is)
01:06:08 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, right, I was thinking of the other thing which was an IO action.
01:10:35 <oerjan> shachaf: my reason was that usually, a PPCG answer with an anonymous function + some other definitions looks like a number of definitions except for leaving out the "f=" or whatever for the anonymous function
01:11:24 <oerjan> and if that's the general way of formatting it, you shouldn't need a delimiter if you don't need one when the f= _is_ there.
01:11:38 <oerjan> although i haven't actually seen that written anywhere
01:13:11 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i see what you mean with line, if i know it's the first line it's a much shorter pattern match
01:13:31 <shachaf> Or even a two- or three-digit number.
01:13:35 <oerjan> still, that feels a bit cheaty with an anonymous function
01:13:55 <oerjan> which is sort of "copy this anywhere"
01:14:00 <shachaf> Well, there ought to be a standard specification for what it means to define a function.
01:14:07 <shachaf> What context it's defined in.
01:14:29 <oerjan> it's hard to make anything that fits all the languages used on PPCG
01:14:48 <shachaf> Sure, you can define it per-language.
01:15:14 <oerjan> there might be something about using __LINE__, many languages have CPP
01:15:51 <oerjan> hm i recall a challenge that came up in
01:15:57 <shachaf> I was trying to figure out a way to make mempty work.
01:16:04 <shachaf> But thata'd be too much of a change.
01:16:28 <oerjan> too many letters from the first one
01:16:49 <shachaf> Getting rid of mappend in the first one is doable but there are too many other letters.
01:16:59 <oerjan> it's a miracle that the functions used in 1 don't overlap with the show used in 2, already
01:17:41 <oerjan> i had a brief period when i forgot mappend was there, and was trying to think up some crazy stuff with lex and cycle
01:17:42 <shachaf> Actually maybe it's too tricky.
01:17:55 <oerjan> (which were the functions that were then left)
01:18:13 <shachaf> concatMap isn't available, and list comprehensions aren't either
01:18:32 <oerjan> the original quine 1 was adapted from used <>, but > is too essential
01:20:38 <oerjan> the lex and cycle thing was for getting the empty string in 3, btw
01:21:05 <oerjan> although it required _some_ `String` value to start with, but it could have been undefined
01:21:29 <oerjan> unfortunately i don't think undefined can be made with just lambdas. oh wait...
01:21:46 <lambdabot> "a*Exception: <interactive>:3:5-9: Missing field in record construction
01:22:21 <oerjan> (:){} gives a nearly undefined string, and could be used in 3.
01:22:28 <oerjan> however, still mappend is there in 1.
01:22:37 <oerjan> lessee, how would that work...
01:23:09 <doesthiswork> I just checked Kaplan's book on little languages from the university library
01:23:20 <oerjan> is there a way to get lex to fail...
01:25:34 <oerjan> bah that was the only short one with only quine 3 chars
01:25:54 <oerjan> i mean with just 2 bytes
01:26:04 <oerjan> unless there's something else that fails...
01:26:46 <oerjan> > [c | c <- ['\NUL'..'\DEl'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:26:48 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'D'
01:26:59 <oerjan> > [c | c <- ['\NUL'..'\DEL'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:27:00 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SYN\ETB\CAN\...
01:27:20 <oerjan> > [c | c <- ['\CAN'..'\DEL'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:27:22 <lambdabot> "\CAN\EM\SUB\ESC\FS\GS\RS\US\"'\DEL"
01:27:30 <shachaf> > [ord c | c <- ['\NUL'..'\DEL'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:27:31 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,34,...
01:28:11 <oerjan> > lex ("''" ++ undefined)
01:28:41 <oerjan> shachaf: we don't want __LINE__
01:28:54 <oerjan> this was hypothetical for getting rid of the CPP
01:29:29 <oerjan> hah i was just typing that
01:29:41 <oerjan> however, that has the wrong type...
01:29:54 <oerjan> :t lex('\'':'\'':(:){})
01:30:16 <oerjan> :t lex('\'':'\'':(:){})>>(:){}
01:30:22 <oerjan> > lex('\'':'\'':(:){})>>(:){}
01:30:54 <oerjan> so just lex is enough. sorry about that e...
01:31:58 <shachaf> And that's just used for mappend?
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01:36:12 <shachaf> oerjan: man, haskell is scow for golfing
01:38:31 <oerjan> haskell does pretty well on these restricted source challenges for a "mainstream" language
01:38:57 <shachaf> A lot of languages would require { or ( for everything.
01:39:08 <shachaf> have you considered a special kind of golfing where your goal is to reduce execution time instead of source code size
01:39:15 <shachaf> i hear that type is in high demand hth
01:39:26 <oerjan> you could say i've just proved haskell contains 3 separate languages with disjoint character sets :P
01:39:57 <oerjan> shachaf: fastest-code is a PPCG tag, but it doesn't really interest me
01:40:42 <shachaf> oerjan: now prove these languages tc hth
01:42:52 <oerjan> i think the language of quine 2 obviously is
01:43:01 <zzo38> If I want to improve speed I can use assembly language for the specific computer that the program is designed for, if the program is designed for only one computer
01:43:08 <oerjan> it has top level equations and list notation
01:43:27 <oerjan> the language of quine 3 may have trouble doing non-terminating stuff
01:43:54 <oerjan> because with only lambdas, everything must be simply typed
01:44:14 <shachaf> Of course code written in assembly still has nondeterministic runtime.
01:44:46 <oerjan> language of quine 1, tricky to say, it'll probably have to steal some more letters from the others at least
01:44:46 <zzo38> Not if it is written for a reasonable computer.
01:46:17 <oerjan> if language 2 can lose "show", language 1 might be in better shape
01:46:35 <oerjan> then it has basically any builtins it wants
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01:46:57 <oerjan> although hm, it might not have any way to bracket things
01:46:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Which reasonable computers do you write for?
01:47:30 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe you can use fmap fmap fmap hth
01:47:40 <oerjan> if it stole {} from 3 it might have do{...}
01:47:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Famicom and MIX and MMIX (although different implementations of MMIX will have different things with the speed, such as, some might use deterministic runtime while other implementations might not)
01:48:22 <oerjan> shachaf: sure. or fmap`id`fmap`id`fmap to avoid whitespace
01:49:43 <shachaf> Though I guess that can be problematic.
01:51:11 <oerjan> actually as i discovered a litle while ago, there are several control chars that can replace space, so just use that
01:53:36 <oerjan> i now remember that fmap for bracketing thing, unfortunately i think the fmaps themselves still needed bracketing, or at least i didn't finish proving they don't
01:54:02 <oerjan> fmap^Mfmap^Mmap`id`fmap^Mfmap just trips off the tongue
01:55:10 <oerjan> it still doesn't require monadic values
01:55:39 <oerjan> oh i guess we wanted to avoid o
01:59:14 <oerjan> ... `id`let in ... is a reasonable substitute for $
01:59:36 <oerjan> well on the right side, at least
02:02:46 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:03:29 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal golfer toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:22:08 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:33:29 <shachaf> Hmm, what's the second derivative of f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2 - 1?
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02:58:54 <shachaf> I guess one thing you can say is DDf(x,y)(dx1,dy1)(dx2,dy2) = 2 dx1 dx2 + 2 dy1 dy2
02:59:14 <shachaf> And another thing you can say is, if x^2 + y^2 = 1, then x d^2x + dx^2 + y d^2y + dy^2 = 0
02:59:31 <shachaf> Which you can work into e.g. d^2y/dx^2 = -1/y^3 with reasonable assumptions?
02:59:40 <shachaf> How do you reconcile these two things?
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04:11:01 <oerjan> time to check if my guess for girl genius is right...
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04:12:03 <oerjan> hm seems i'll have to wait another update
04:12:20 <doesthiswork> battersea looks a little more sea battered in europa than in europe
04:13:51 <oerjan> . o O ( attempt no landing there )
04:14:32 <tswett> I'm creating a programming language, woo.
04:14:45 <zzo38> What programming language are you creating?
04:14:50 <oerjan> isn't there enough woo in the world
04:14:57 <tswett> Well, it's called Koios.
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04:15:18 <tswett> It's gonna be, like... it's gonna involve...
04:15:24 <tswett> It's gonna be pretty cool, in a theoretical way.
04:15:40 <tswett> Oh, also, I discovered my fetish for gay airplanes.
04:16:12 <tswett> I don't remember whether I was intending for an "empty type" to have one instance, or no instances.
04:16:22 <tswett> I do remember that this is pretty important.
04:17:00 <rdococ> This channel never fails to confuse me. Not in terms of the programming language terminology but in terms of what seems to be absolutely piles upon piles of inside jokes.
04:17:45 <tswett> What, the gay airplane thing? That's just me being weird because I think I can get away with it.
04:18:03 <zzo38> That is what this IRC is; this IRC is confuse.
04:18:50 <doesthiswork> there is a large amount of gay airplane porn on the internet, it's one of the classic "what hath man wrought" examples
04:19:21 <rdococ> I was talking about other things such as HackEso and... well, I don't have a list of them on hand.
04:20:39 <rdococ> Building on that, the boolean type should have three
04:21:27 <tswett> Ratbat, AeroIngo... yeah, they're the big ones.
04:21:40 <doesthiswork> right, although I think I can make a reasonable arguement that there should be four boolean values
04:22:29 <doesthiswork> proven true, proven false, proven both, not proven either
04:23:08 <rdococ> tswett: Arrays, lists or their equivalents should start at 1/sqrt(2)
04:24:26 <doesthiswork> arrays should linearly interpolate between their values so as to handle real indexes
04:24:53 <zzo38> But what if you don't want linear interpolation and you want a different kind instead?
04:25:21 <oerjan> polynomial interpolation...
04:25:42 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Corresponding to closed, open, clopen, and neither?
04:26:09 <zzo38> The programming language XISYNTH actually does something like that, but it uses cubic interpolation instead.
04:27:04 <doesthiswork> shachaf: I'm not a topology expert, but yes the meanings seem the same
04:27:30 <shachaf> I don't think they're the same but they're related.
04:28:12 <oerjan> did you know there are 14 (iirc) sets you can construct from a given one by applying closure, complement and union?
04:28:59 <oerjan> clearly you need a boolean that tells everything about whether each of those contains the original set
04:29:02 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratowski%27s_closure-complement_problem
04:29:34 <oerjan> it would include things like "has empty interior"
04:29:52 <shachaf> How many are there for Alexandrov spaces?
04:30:18 <oerjan> i don't even remember what that is. one of the Tn axioms?
04:30:32 <shachaf> Arbitrary intersections of open sets are open.
04:31:12 <shachaf> Maybe that doesn't even make a difference?
04:35:39 <oerjan> hm that page's introduction doesn't seem to include union, either that follows or i misremembered
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04:47:17 <tswett> I told y'all about my favorite axiom of separation, right?
04:47:45 <tswett> For lack of a better term, I'll call it the W criterion.
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04:48:11 <tswett> A W space is a topological space S where, given any two distinct points x and y in S, there exists a subset of S containing exactly one of those points.
04:48:45 <oerjan> just a subset? sounds easy.
04:49:29 <tswett> It's a very easy criterion.
04:50:11 <oerjan> it would be so much harder if the subset had to be either open or closed
04:52:15 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i'm getting a vague vibe that i once before thought about the problem with union, and that there are then infinitely many with some simple product space construction
04:57:00 <shachaf> "A few years ago I proposed a challenging Monthly problem (11059) that essentially asks this question for the operations of closure, complement, and union in a topological space. It does turn out there's a space containing a singleton that generates infinitely many sets under the three operations, but it's a bit tricky to find."
04:58:44 <oerjan> that does sound a bit harder.
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09:03:22 <Cale> shachaf: David Dineen Porter posted some new videos on his channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_BdAW_Eqt0
09:12:01 <shachaf> Is this `caleyoutubesubscriptionlist?
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10:45:07 <HackEso> 1/1:trantor//Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. \ dth//dth is the dth ordinal. dth? \ usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton. \ ä//Ä is a Swedish geographical feature. \ progress//Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
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10:59:50 <wob_jonas> oerjan: control-G is an identifier character? are any other ascii control characters identifying characters?
11:00:40 <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, are any of the control characters infix operator names?
11:04:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: how would __LINE__ help? the preprocessor expands it to an integer, not to a string. it doesn't help you get a string. do you mean __FILE__?
11:07:13 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> oh don't have b" => what? I thought you were only using b as an arbitrary identifier character, and you could replace it with some other letter, although it might make the code a few characters longer if it's above l
11:14:57 <wob_jonas> "<tswett> I don't remember whether I was intending for an "empty type" to have one instance, or no instances." => the empty type defaults to int, with a warning. perhaps you want an empty struct (or empty tuple) which has one possible value, or an empty enum (empty distingiushed union) which has no possible values.
11:15:10 <wob_jonas> you can also call the latter two unit type and void type
11:15:39 <wob_jonas> it can't be "void type", that's tainted, means one value or no value depending on where you grew up
11:15:50 <wob_jonas> how about the unit type and the diverging type?
11:15:58 <wob_jonas> or the unit type and the noreturn type?
11:17:06 <wob_jonas> "<doesthiswork> arrays should linearly interpolate between their values so as to handle real indexes" => you want paths in metafont for that
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11:43:25 <Cale> shachaf: haha, just a comedian who I suspect you might like given that you like supermega comics' style of humour
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17:24:28 <\oren\_> I need a command for "kill this process id and anything that was started in the same hour"
17:30:11 <int-e> . o O ( kill -9 -1 )
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17:42:18 <\oren\_> actually waht I really would like is a find style interface for processes
17:43:14 <\oren\_> psfind -command "some_executable*" -starttime "wednesday night" -kill
17:44:22 <int-e> there's pgrep but it doesn't filter by starting time
17:45:06 <\oren\_> https://twitter.com/OedoSoldier/status/992418511921336321
17:47:25 * int-e eyes \oren\_ questioningly
17:47:57 <\oren\_> "bring the enemy ships closer, I want to use my medieval chinese sword on them"
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17:49:51 <wob_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/1989/ => the H stands for hairy, right?
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17:52:05 <HackEso> IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
17:54:22 <int-e> flight of the humble bee
17:54:37 <int-e> or perhaps it should be "fight" or "fright"
17:56:28 <wob_jonas> I think tbh stands for "big hairy toe", the initials are in a strange order as a compromise between english and french
17:56:54 <HackEso> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
17:57:06 <HackEso> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
17:57:22 <wob_jonas> or maybe it stands for "hairy big toe"
17:58:17 <int-e> (CLOP is the sequel to QWOP)
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18:04:53 <HackEso> 7770:2016-05-04 <oerjän> learn IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience". \ 7769:2016-05-04 <oerjän> learn IMHO means "In my holy omniscience". \ 7768:2016-05-04 <oerjän> learn IMHO means "In my humble omniscience".
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18:07:21 <int-e> `learn SMDH is short for "Send My Daughter Home".
18:07:23 <HackEso> Learned 'smdh': SMDH is short for "Send My Daughter Home".
18:08:51 <int-e> (I don't recall ever seeing "SMDH" before today's xkcd.)
18:11:52 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, you're quite right
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18:26:58 <HackEso> WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
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19:18:10 <quintopia> where can I find a Brainfuck to Turing machine compiler?
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19:48:06 <esowiki> [[OM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54964&oldid=54952 * Robertpmorton39 * (+0) Removed the DEF node type, as it is no longer in OM.
19:49:16 <esowiki> [[OM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54965&oldid=54964 * Robertpmorton39 * (+33)
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21:16:35 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54966&oldid=54866 * Plokmijnuhby * (+1078) Added a slightly suboptimal but at least working piece of code.
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21:32:19 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54967&oldid=54966 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2)
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21:47:35 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54968&oldid=54967 * Plokmijnuhby * (-2)
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23:01:23 <zzo38> I thought a computer can have a sound chip design as: There are four channels, each has the registers: 16-bit current value, 16-bit current period, 16-bit next value, 16-bit next period, 6-bit volume, 1-bit expiry flag. All are write-only except that the expiry flag can be read and is cleared when read. It can also execute a user program, mostly independently of the rest of the computer.
23:01:40 <esowiki> [[DL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54969&oldid=50485 * Robertpmorton39 * (-3) Got rid of "new"
23:03:50 <zzo38> (Any other stuff, such as additional channels and special effects, must be done in software.)
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23:08:35 <esowiki> [[OM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54970&oldid=54965 * Robertpmorton39 * (+26)
23:10:10 <esowiki> [[OM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54971&oldid=54970 * Robertpmorton39 * (+36)
23:10:49 <esowiki> [[OM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54972&oldid=54971 * Robertpmorton39 * (-31)
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23:49:28 <lambdabot> CYUL 042300Z VRB02KT 8SM SCT004 BKN040 BKN100 OVC210 12/12 A2944 RMK SF4SC1AC2CI1 SLP971 DENSITY ALT 400FT
23:49:41 <boily> VRB02KT only? yeah right.
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23:50:52 <boily> . o O ( do they account for the whole velocity or only ground speed? what if it's winding downward? )
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23:54:32 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: control-G is an identifier character? are any other ascii control characters identifying characters? <-- no, most are simply a lexical error, although some are whitespace. i suspect the ^G is a bug and should be an error.
23:54:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: error: lexical error at character '\a'
23:55:09 <oerjan> which may be a pre-stage
23:55:39 <lambdabot> error: lexical error at character '\a'
23:56:36 * oerjan should upgrade ghc some day, may check if the bug is still there then
23:58:22 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, are any of the control characters infix operator names? <-- i don't think so, i think my tests would have caught that. might check ^G again though...
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00:03:01 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> shachaf: how would __LINE__ help? the preprocessor expands it to an integer, not to a string. <-- hah, i had just realized that. __FILE__ wouldn't be helpful, choosing a filename seems like cheating.
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00:05:03 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> oh don't have b" => what? I thought you were only using b as an arbitrary identifier character, and you could replace it with some other letter, although it might make the code a few characters longer if it's above l
00:05:45 <oerjan> ah right. there were still some available, the coding makes 100 = m.
00:06:38 <oerjan> anyway, the '\'' method would be better anyway, since it's bound to q.
00:09:10 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas see logs
00:11:16 <HackEso> IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
00:11:24 <oerjan> ah we already had that
00:17:50 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, the right thing to do would be to standardize the file name.
00:18:15 <shachaf> But anyway I thought of __FILE__ first and then decided __LINE__ would be easier to predict and forgot it wasn't a string.
00:20:49 <oerjan> my answer contains TIO links and i think those all give __FILE__s that are longer than __TIME__
00:27:22 <oerjan> shachaf: https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/1072/ may be a relevant policy although it might still be an improvement with something like A.hs
00:28:18 <shachaf> Can you call the file "A"?
00:28:36 <shachaf> Or does that add bytes in the form of compiler flags to force the program to be Haskell?
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00:32:51 <oerjan> shachaf: current policy would make it count as "Haskell with option ...", a distinct language.
00:33:08 <oerjan> i'm not actually going to do this, anyway.
00:33:39 <oerjan> that'd be nice. got a mappend replacement?
00:34:48 <shachaf> mappend isn't even being used at [a] here, I guess.
00:37:11 <shachaf> Are there any letters that could be extracted more easily?
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00:38:09 <oerjan> i think the putStr and print are pretty fixed. just about any other method collides with the show used in quine 2.
00:40:36 <oerjan> hm crazy idea: let quine 2 use putStr, print and do instead
00:41:06 <oerjan> that'd make it longer though
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00:43:01 <oerjan> but then there will be bracketing problems.
00:43:39 <oerjan> and still not sure quine 1 gets any better by having show instead
00:46:33 <oerjan> it would loose mappend too
00:48:16 <oerjan> it is quite hard to do proper point-free stuff without <>
00:48:28 <oerjan> mappend is an outlier there
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00:50:54 <shachaf> ap is permitted in quine 1, at least
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00:57:27 <shachaf> Sometimes you can use (>>=)/(=<<) similarly to ap for (e ->)
00:57:33 <shachaf> But I don't think you can make it work here.
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01:20:30 <oerjan> by "without <>" i meant without either of those two characters. also "."
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06:32:33 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54973&oldid=54968 * Plokmijnuhby * (+3)
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06:38:54 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54974&oldid=54973 * Plokmijnuhby * (-10)
06:45:08 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54975&oldid=54974 * Plokmijnuhby * (+3)
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13:01:24 <wob_jonas> it's ironic that it's hard to do pointfree programming without the "." point character
13:16:39 <HackEso> IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
13:16:45 <wob_jonas> I still wonder if that one should mention "hairy"
13:17:06 <HackEso> WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
13:21:14 <int-e> wob_jonas: I've been saying for years that point-free code can be recognized by its abundance of dots
13:22:13 <int-e> @pl \a b c d e -> a (b (c (d e)))
13:22:13 <lambdabot> (. ((. (.)) . (.) . (.))) . (.) . (.) . (.)
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13:54:30 <arseniiv> @pl \f g x y z z' z'' -> f (g x y z z' z'')
13:55:19 <arseniiv> oh, I have thought I didn’t understand something, now I do understand I mixed two things, many functions and many arguments
13:55:29 <wob_jonas> @type \f g x y z z' z'' -> f (g x y z z' z'')
13:55:30 <lambdabot> (t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t6 -> t7 -> t1) -> t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t6 -> t7 -> t2
13:55:36 <wob_jonas> @hoogle (t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t6 -> t7 -> t1) -> t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t6 -> t7 -> t2
13:55:37 <lambdabot> Data.Composition (.::.) :: (d -> e) -> (a -> a1 -> a2 -> b -> c -> d) -> a -> a1 -> a2 -> b -> c -> e
13:55:37 <lambdabot> Data.Composition (.****) :: (d -> e) -> (a -> a1 -> a2 -> b -> c -> d) -> a -> a1 -> a2 -> b -> c -> e
13:55:37 <lambdabot> Data.Composition compose5 :: (d -> e) -> (a -> a1 -> a2 -> b -> c -> d) -> a -> a1 -> a2 -> b -> c -> e
13:56:17 <lambdabot> (t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t1) -> t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t2
13:56:20 <arseniiv> woah, and it’s only what Hoogle knows. Is here an interface to Hayoo?
13:56:24 <wob_jonas> @hoogle (t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t1) -> t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t2
13:56:24 <lambdabot> Data.Composition (.:.) :: (d -> e) -> (a -> b -> c -> d) -> a -> b -> c -> e
13:56:24 <lambdabot> Data.Composition (.**) :: (d -> e) -> (a -> b -> c -> d) -> a -> b -> c -> e
13:56:24 <lambdabot> Data.Composition compose3 :: (d -> e) -> (a -> b -> c -> d) -> a -> b -> c -> e
13:57:01 <arseniiv> I think composeN names are too long. However, they at least don’t contain any dots
13:57:25 <wob_jonas> isn't there something like that in Applicative too?
13:58:17 <arseniiv> I forgot if it’s applicable to functions. Oh, you mean lift, IDK
14:01:50 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr -> ()’ with actual type ‘Expr’
14:01:50 <lambdabot> • In the third argument of ‘liftA3’, namely ‘z’
14:02:16 <arseniiv> also, are here any combinator-expressing bots? :D
14:02:32 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b -> c -> d) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> f d
14:03:07 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
14:04:17 <arseniiv> @run (\x y z -> [x,y,z]) "abc" "lmn" "xyz"
14:04:49 <arseniiv> @run liftA3 (\x y z -> [x,y,z]) "abc" "lmn" "xyz"
14:04:51 <lambdabot> ["alx","aly","alz","amx","amy","amz","anx","any","anz","blx","bly","blz","bm...
14:06:27 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr -> t’ with actual type ‘Expr’
14:06:28 <lambdabot> • The function ‘a’ is applied to one argument,
14:06:31 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M732047058109...
14:06:31 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
14:07:18 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M761428108178...
14:07:18 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
14:07:29 <arseniiv> how are these free variables supposed to be handled?
14:07:58 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M704515130069...
14:07:58 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
14:08:36 <int-e> f and g are magical and may require a type signature.
14:08:45 <int-e> :t h -- do we have this?
14:09:14 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘f’
14:09:14 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
14:09:20 <int-e> @run f a :: Expr -> Expr
14:09:23 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘f’
14:09:23 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
14:09:53 <int-e> (that is the point, f is, effectively, variadic; similar to printf)
14:10:47 <wob_jonas> @run fmap f (g :: Expr -> Expr) a :: Expr
14:10:55 <wob_jonas> @run liftA f (g :: Expr -> Expr) a :: Expr
14:11:04 <wob_jonas> @run liftA2 f (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) a b :: Expr
14:11:06 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr -> ()’ with actual type ‘Expr’
14:11:06 <lambdabot> • In the third argument of ‘liftA2’, namely ‘a’
14:11:38 <wob_jonas> @run liftA2 (f :: Expr -> Expr) (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) a b :: Expr
14:11:39 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘b0 -> Expr’
14:12:13 <wob_jonas> @run liftA2 (f :: Expr -> Expr) (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:12:15 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘b0 -> Expr’
14:12:31 <wob_jonas> @run liftA2 f g (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:12:33 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr -> ()’ with actual type ‘Expr’
14:12:33 <lambdabot> • In the third argument of ‘liftA2’, namely ‘(a :: Expr)’
14:12:40 <wob_jonas> @run f (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:12:48 <wob_jonas> @run f (g (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr)) :: Expr
14:12:50 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘t0’ arising from a use of ‘f’
14:12:50 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show t0)’ from being solved.
14:13:07 <wob_jonas> @run f (g (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr) :: Expr
14:13:21 <wob_jonas> @run f ((g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr)) :: Expr
14:13:32 <wob_jonas> @run liftA2 f (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:13:34 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr -> ()’ with actual type ‘Expr’
14:13:34 <lambdabot> • In the third argument of ‘liftA2’, namely ‘(a :: Expr)’
14:13:49 <wob_jonas> @run (f :: Expr -> Expr) ((g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr)) :: Expr
14:13:59 <wob_jonas> @run liftA2 (f :: Expr -> Expr) (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:14:01 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘b0 -> Expr’
14:14:05 <wob_jonas> @run liftM2 (f :: Expr -> Expr) (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:14:07 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘a20 -> Expr’
14:14:07 <lambdabot> Expected type: Expr -> a20 -> Expr
14:14:25 <wob_jonas> @run (. (.)) (f :: Expr -> Expr) (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:14:27 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr -> Expr -> Expr’
14:14:48 <wob_jonas> @run ((.) . (.)) (f :: Expr -> Expr) (g :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) (a :: Expr) (b :: Expr) :: Expr
14:15:11 <lambdabot> (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c
14:15:13 <lambdabot> Prelude (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
14:15:13 <lambdabot> Data.Function (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
14:15:13 <lambdabot> Control.Category (.) :: Category cat => cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c
14:15:26 <wob_jonas> @hoggle (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c
14:15:26 <lambdabot> Data.Function on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c
14:15:26 <lambdabot> Data.Function.HT compose2 :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> a -> c)
14:15:27 <lambdabot> CorePrelude on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c
14:16:02 <wob_jonas> @hoggle (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> m b) -> a1 -> a2 -> m c
14:16:02 <lambdabot> Data.Function.Tools apply2way :: (a -> b -> c) -> (d -> a) -> (d -> b) -> d -> c
14:16:38 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
14:16:47 <wob_jonas> @hoggle Applicative m => (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> m b) -> a1 -> a2 -> m c
14:16:47 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative liftA3 :: Applicative f => (a -> b -> c -> d) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> f d
14:16:47 <lambdabot> Diagrams.Prelude liftA3 :: Applicative f => (a -> b -> c -> d) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> f d
14:16:47 <lambdabot> Streaming liftA3 :: Applicative f => (a -> b -> c -> d) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> f d
14:17:16 <wob_jonas> @hoggle Functor m => (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> m b) -> a1 -> a2 -> m c
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14:18:56 <lambdabot> error: Data constructor not in scope: Natural
14:20:00 <arseniiv> I don’t need GHCi anymore, I’ll spam here ]:D
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14:29:22 <arseniiv> variable: it’s unfair, I haven’t conquered the universe yet
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14:30:19 <arseniiv> I would be more tasty otherwise
14:31:40 <arseniiv> then please restart the world to the point whete I haven’t been eaten yet :)
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15:19:33 <int-e> . o O ( GroundZero is destined to be DeepMind's final AI project. )
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15:29:54 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is <redacted>.
15:29:56 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is <redacted>.
15:30:02 <arseniiv> `learn final is an annotation in Java, it means the marked code will not be changed anymore and is a final version,
15:30:06 <HackEso> Learned 'final': final is an annotation in Java, it means the marked code will not be changed anymore and is a final version,
15:30:57 <lambdabot> pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code.
15:30:59 <arseniiv> it was secretly a typo, don’t tell anyone
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15:31:46 <int-e> `slwd final/s=final(.*).="final"\1.=
15:31:51 <int-e> `slwd final//s=final(.*).="final"\1.=
15:31:52 <HackEso> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 24: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
15:31:57 <int-e> `slwd final//s=final\(.*\).="final"\1.=
15:31:59 <HackEso> final//"final" is an annotation in Java, it means the marked code will not be changed anymore and is a final version.
15:32:33 <int-e> `slwd final//s=,=;=
15:32:34 <HackEso> final//"final" is an annotation in Java; it means the marked code will not be changed anymore and is a final version.
15:32:51 <int-e> `quote punctuation
15:32:58 <HackEso> 1322 26633 159414 quotes
15:33:05 <HackEso> 1244) <Jafet> I guess the problem is, the cache size bounds the evilness of the memory bus
15:33:22 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54976&oldid=46448 * Impomatic * (+141) /* External resources */
15:33:24 <int-e> fungot: you there?
15:33:24 <fungot> int-e: the final auction price: the auction ends when 72 hours
15:33:35 <fungot> int-e: each player is awarded a number
15:33:47 <int-e> fungot: what a precious prize!
15:33:47 <fungot> int-e: 2. the notification is challenged later, gave it its proposer. if the
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15:50:13 <esowiki> [[Redcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54977&oldid=54953 * Impomatic * (+32)
15:50:44 <esowiki> [[Category:Programming games]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54978 * Impomatic * (+0) Created blank page
15:51:26 <esowiki> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54979&oldid=54374 * Impomatic * (+32)
15:52:01 <esowiki> [[FukYorBrane]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54980&oldid=53685 * Impomatic * (+32)
15:52:39 <esowiki> [[Pinkcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54981&oldid=39703 * Impomatic * (+33)
15:53:08 <esowiki> [[Agony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54982&oldid=39372 * Impomatic * (+31)
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16:14:10 <esowiki> [[Lua Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54983&oldid=46544 * Impomatic * (+32)
16:16:52 <esowiki> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54984&oldid=46504 * Impomatic * (+32)
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18:48:52 <ais523> quintopia: me personally, no
18:48:56 <ais523> I believe some other people have been working on them though
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20:02:28 <wob_jonas> quintopia: they could just play the hot new Super Mario Bros warpless TAS. that one certainly console verifies. but you should ask dwangoac or watch his preparations on twitch if you want to know for sure.
20:06:34 <wob_jonas> seriously, that thing is amazing, MrWint put in work to optimize Mario's movement locally with some brute-force searches of his config'n space, and he won two framerules over the TAS that was standing still 2012
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20:45:05 <quintopia> wob_jonas: what game has the largest absolute difference between human and TAS in the same category?
20:54:56 <arseniiv> someone interested in micro/xentonality?
20:55:28 <zzo38> Yes I have some interest
20:57:41 <wob_jonas> quintopia: I don't know, but I'd guess it's some long game with a difficult game-end glitch that hasn't been reproduced real time yet
20:58:05 <wob_jonas> quintopia: it's also a bit tricky to tell because the TAS people and the real-time speedrunners measure time differently
21:00:25 <wob_jonas> quintopia: SMB3 glitched any% is a possibility
21:12:45 <arseniiv> I haven’t made anything remote like music for years, but hope when I resume it would have something xen in it
21:14:46 <arseniiv> alas, I’m stuck in not wanting to sort out a huge VST collection. I copied them intact when migrating x86 → x64, and some of them should be reinstalled properly, some should be deleted outright etc. etc. it’s a grand mess((
21:15:32 <arseniiv> and today I open OpenMPT and see that its custom tuning system seems not working with VSTs
21:16:15 <arseniiv> hope I’m mistaken and there is some way, one just can’t do with samples only
21:17:57 <int-e> . o O ( voluminous sinsister toad )
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21:19:31 <arseniiv> `learn VST is a Visual Studio Tomorrow, an unofficial evil clone of VS made tomorrow and quantum-tunnelled back in time
21:19:33 <HackEso> Learned 'vst': VST is a Visual Studio Tomorrow, an unofficial evil clone of VS made tomorrow and quantum-tunnelled back in time
21:33:44 <zzo38> arseniiv: I don't know VST and much of OpenMPT though; try perhaps use of Csound.
21:33:54 <zzo38> (Csound is what I prefer)
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22:49:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JoeStrout * New user account
22:51:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54985&oldid=54955 * JoeStrout * (+143)
22:51:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54986&oldid=54985 * JoeStrout * (+60)
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22:57:44 <HackEso> 1/1:`ngevd//The `ngevd command hasn't been invented yet, but still manages to prevent bugs. \ emac//The eMac, released in 2002, was the first model of Macintosh computer to use electricity. \ wecome//wecome in pece. \ ramen//拉麵是一種類型的麵條縫製從原始樹木。 \ ruddy//HackEgo? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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00:03:08 <zzo38> Now I implemented the preprocessor for Free Hero Mesh. The following built-in macros are implemented: {+} {-} {*} {/} {mod} {band} {bor} {bxor} {bnot} {cat} {version} {define} {include} {call}
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00:14:00 <HackEso> 1/1:steprans//A Steprans variable is a variable whose notation is variable. \ oya yakuman//We don't know what an oya yakuman is, but based on boily's reaction, it must be quite painful. \ dentist//Dentists are professional workers whose main line of work is creating dents on various surfaces. \ cigar//A cigar is either a penis or just a cigar, dependent on Freud's current mood. \ tsh//tsh sounds horrendous
00:14:06 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: o.O: not found
00:16:04 <boily> I need to corrupt new coworkers to the Wonderful World of Tile Shuffling.
00:23:53 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with the number 14 twh
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01:06:16 <HackEso> 1/2:ic//ic what you did there. \ block device//Block devices are a concession made in Unix to make raw hard disks and magnetic tape have a similar interface to regular files and terminals. Since magnetic tapes can't write individual bytes, only entire blocks, the interface isn't exactly the same, thus the dreaded dd obs= option was born. \ rhubarb//Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb, rhubarb: rhubarb rhubarb? Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb rhubarb. \ ievan//ievan
01:06:18 <HackEso> 2/2:is basically http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4om1rQKPijI \ pun//Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
01:06:48 <boily> puns are groaning.
01:07:07 <int-e> boily: tile shuffling?
01:10:11 <int-e> fungot: tile shuffling?
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01:10:50 <HackEso> 446) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
01:13:55 <int-e> I guess I'll never know
01:14:36 <boily> int-ello. tile shuffling is mahjong. mahjong is good for you!
01:16:17 <fungot> boily: when a rule change is canceled. if, at
01:16:29 <boily> fungot: then, what do you think about tile shuffling?
01:16:33 <boily> fungot: September.
01:16:34 <fungot> boily: if a vote is. an activity level of support must call for judgement made on a thursday or earlier in the
01:17:28 <int-e> but it requires too many players
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01:19:00 <shachaf> int-e: How many players should a game require?
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01:19:39 <int-e> For me to play it? One, perhaps two.
01:21:13 <int-e> I'm assuming boily's talking about the 4 player game rather than the solitaire that happens to use Mahjong pieces.
01:22:13 <shachaf> I've been playing some of this 2-player game recently: http://www.spyparty.com/
01:23:44 <zzo38> How many players the game require depends on the game.
01:24:20 <zzo38> Mahjong is played with four players (although there are variants for two or three players, too)
01:24:31 <shachaf> Zero-player games are the most fun, but no one has ever managed to play them.
01:26:24 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering normally needs two or more players, but, if you delete rule 104.2a then you can play the variant I call "Standard Solitaire". (You will probably need a strange kind of deck to make it a reasonable game, I suppose)
01:26:48 <boily> helloochaf. are people never or always playing zero player games?
01:27:08 <int-e> boily: noone is playing them all the time
01:27:25 <zzo38> Zero player game already is; you don't play it because then you are playing one (or more) player
01:27:35 * boily is feeling zen tonight
01:27:39 <shachaf> If you have a negative buddy, sometimes you can play a zero-player game together.
01:28:15 <int-e> I suppose the universe is a zero player game
01:28:43 <doesthiswork> A cell phone might be a negative player, because when you add one to a game the game gets one less player
01:29:05 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, the universe is an all-player game. everyone in the universe is playing it.
01:29:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: they are mistaken, they're merely game tokens
01:30:04 <wob_jonas> int-e: https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=924
01:32:10 <int-e> it's ironic, everybody wants to be a player, but is getting played instead.
01:32:57 <zzo38> I don't know if it is correct or not. But, I also suppose universe may be considered as a zero player game, but, of course I don't know. Even if there is a player, it does not indicate who it is.
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04:44:35 <Sgeo__> Oh dear god qntm made a webcomic
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06:45:00 <esowiki> [[Pinkcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54987&oldid=54981 * Impomatic * (+386)
06:45:45 <esowiki> [[Pinkcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54988&oldid=54987 * Impomatic * (+13) /* Example */
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06:47:02 <impomatic> Pinkcode is broken :-( If the opponent contains an @ you can find it on the first instruction.
06:53:30 <\oren\_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoHuMwZwTk MAN EATS FOOD MADE IN 1899
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10:22:56 <wob_jonas> Sgeo__: yes, I love that one because of nostalgy, it was basically the webcomic that introduced me to webcomics. it was already complete when I read it (although I have read older webcomics since)
10:48:54 <wob_jonas> I think I can do three quines in perl with some useful characters left (I think I can have dollar sign, round parenthesis, letter a, and probably even some quoting method), but I don't think I can do four.
10:49:03 <wob_jonas> This is still re https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/163607/write-a-quine-suite
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13:16:04 <arseniiv> and today I open OpenMPT and see that its custom tuning system seems not working with VSTs> I’ve been told there’s no standardized way to apply microtunigs to VSTs. Damn you MIDI!
13:16:21 <wob_jonas> *p=["foo","bar"]; isn't even longer than @p=("foo","bar"); so I might not even be losing length by omitting parenthesis
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13:28:35 <wob_jonas> I wonder if that would let me squeeze in a fourth quine, one using $j="print"; $~->$j($m); except the print is generated with some string bitwise or whatever trick
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14:23:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alan-Liang * New user account
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16:05:08 <zzo38> arseniiv: It might not be possible with VST, but Csound can certainly do it, at least. (Csound can load VSTs, but if VST doesn't support microtuning, then you will have to avoid VST.)
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16:09:06 <zzo38> (Csound can also act as a VST, if you need it to.)
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17:25:38 <zzo38> I suppose you can just implement the tuning directly with Csound; even if it is as VST, it doesn't need to know the tuning of the host system then
17:32:56 <arseniiv> yeah, the problem is, today tunings aren’t first-class and are local to a processing unit
17:34:22 <arseniiv> also I found a couple tunable VSTis by now: http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/List+of+Microtonal+Software+Plugins
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17:36:10 <arseniiv> and also it seems Xenharmonic wiki is supposed to move in near future (July)
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17:50:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Voltage2007 * New user account
17:53:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54989&oldid=54986 * Voltage2007 * (+266) /* Introductions */
17:55:13 <esowiki> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54990&oldid=53124 * Voltage2007 * (+0) It has 2 commands, not 3. Looked at history and noticed the 3rd command was deprecated.
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18:20:01 <zzo38> arseniiv: I suppose that, since Csound can act as a VST host and as a VST plugin, you might be able to use Csound to translate the signals for the VST.
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18:51:09 <arseniiv> zzo38: maybe I could, but then I first should think them up, as a typical host doesn’t have a human-manageable way for dealing with tonalities. E. g. OpenMPT doesn’t send anything special when an instrument uses a custom mapping. I also opened LMMS and Tracktion 6 several times but don’t know if they could use e. g. nonstandard piano roll when viewing (and inputting in) a MIDI track. I couldn’t operate with bare numbers :D
18:53:58 <tswett> wob_jonas said: "perhaps you want an empty struct (or empty tuple) which has one possible value, or an empty enum (empty distingiushed union) which has no possible values."
18:54:09 <zzo38> Is there a way in OpenMPT to use MIDI macros to send that information? I don't know. Even if not, you could just define custom note names and then just send the raw note numbers with a Csound code can convert.
18:54:23 <tswett> I'm creating a language, and evidently when I was working on it several months ago, I had decided that I wanted it to have types, and that it should be possible for a type to be empty.
18:55:15 <tswett> And I don't remember what I was thinking about what an empty type should actually be.
18:55:17 <zzo38> (I don't know much about VST, as I do not use it.)
19:02:15 <arseniiv> zzo38: generally, OpenMPT can send both midi macros and VST parameter changes. But I dunno if it could be comfortable and if there is a plugin which inputs these in place of regular note events
19:04:14 <zzo38> That is why I suggested using Csound to translate them
19:04:34 <arseniiv> tswett: you may cosider that a singleton type can have an empty runtime representation (a variable of that type need not exist, and a field of that type could take up no memory in a struct). Values of an empty type at runtime, though, signal an error
19:05:25 <arseniiv> zzo38: ah. Strictly speaking, I’m not at all familiar with Csound yet. I know it’s powerful, and that’s all I know for now :D
19:09:42 <arseniiv> (I don't know much about VST, as I do not use it.)> you can think of it as an outdated technology which is used in great numbers because it hadn’t yet been superseded completely. There are many great things (plugins and DAWs) which use VST but it’s their own merit, not VST’s
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19:17:18 <zzo38> There is also LADSPA (which Csound also supports), and LV2, and others, although I didn't need any of those things.
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19:37:58 <arseniiv> zzo38: yeah, AAX, AU for Mac etc.. I’m more or less familiar with VST only, though
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19:43:26 <ais523> hmm… suppose I have three integers 0 ≤ a, b, c ≤ k (for constant and fairly small k); is there a commutative function . such that we can always find 0 ≤ x, y, z ≤ k such that x.y = a, y.z = b, z.x = c?
19:43:35 <ais523> (the definition of . is allowed to depend on k)
19:43:46 <ais523> the answer is yes if k is prime, we can just use addition
19:43:54 <ais523> however, that doesn't generalise to cycles of even length
19:44:09 <ais523> i.e. w.x = a, x.y = b, y.z = c, z.w = d
19:44:39 <ais523> so I'm interested if there's some operation that does (bear in mind it has to be commutative, otherwise you can just use the K combinator)
19:45:59 <ais523> obviously you can't do it for cycles of length 2, so maybe it's impossible for length 4
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19:47:35 <ais523> s/addition/addition mod k/
19:48:15 <arseniiv> or could it be noncommutative but essentially dependent on each parameter? (x′ ≠ x => x.y ≠ x′.y & w.x ≠ w.x′)
19:49:19 <ais523> not for what I'm thinking of, unless I'm missing something
19:51:05 <ais523> the context is that I'm trying to reduce the space usage of (preconstructed, i.e. no write operations supported) cuckoo hashes, via spreading the value over multiple buckets and somehow recombining it at the end
19:51:36 <ais523> but it's the recombination step that needs this property and I'm not sure if there's an appropriate function
19:52:15 <ais523> oh, duh: if a = b, then x = z (by the pigeonhole principle)
19:52:24 <ais523> err, in the original example
19:52:30 <ais523> here we have if a = b, then w = y
19:52:34 <ais523> then that implies that c = d
19:52:47 <shachaf> This is just asking for a [K]-valued symmetric matrix with a/b/c on the superdiagonal, right?
19:53:34 <ais523> I don't see what you mean
19:53:42 <ais523> how big is the matrix?
19:54:25 <shachaf> I guess you mean a commutative function that can be specified efficiently rather than just a lookup table.
19:54:34 <ais523> nah, a lookup table is OK
19:54:41 <ais523> the problem is ensuring that you can always find x, y, z
19:55:25 <ais523> but there are plenty of functions that work for odd cycles, it seems (probably /any/ Abelian group operation works)
19:55:30 <ais523> and I just proved that no function works for even cycles
19:55:58 <shachaf> Oh, I did misread what makes this interesting, never mind.
19:56:40 <ais523> actually, more interesting still is the three-argument case (where we're spreading each value over three buckets) but it's a little unclear how to even formulate the problem there
19:57:48 <ais523> and hmm, addition mod a non-prime does /not/ work, so it's not just arbitrary group operations that you need, there's some other condition too
19:58:53 <shachaf> Well, can't you still just define f(0,1) = f(1,0) = a, f(1,2) = f(2,1) = b, f(2,0) = f(0,2) = c?
19:59:07 <ais523> oh, f isn't allowed to depend on a, b, c
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19:59:27 <ais523> otherwise it's easy, yes
19:59:38 <shachaf> Oh, OK. It just depends on k.
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20:02:08 <ais523> I guess the condition that's needed here isn't full commutativity, but rather that it has to work both for x.y = a and y.x = a (but not necessarily with the same x, y in both cases)
20:04:53 <ais523> perhaps something like x.y = 2x+y (mod a prime)
20:05:29 <shachaf> OK, so for values <= k, you have (k^2 + k)/2 degrees of freedom.
20:05:45 <shachaf> Wait, wht do you mean by not necessarily the same x, y?
20:06:18 <ais523> like, the solution for x.y = a, y.z = b, z.x = c might be different from the solution for y.x = a, y.z = b, z.x = c (i.e. same inputs but different argument order)
20:23:09 <oerjan> ais523: your question was very confusing because you started out asking for the specific case where a,b,c are three, but k varies, in such a way that it looked to me like you were interested in when k is even. but then you changed it to adding more variables. could you please formulate what you really want?
20:23:46 <ais523> oerjan: what I really want is as general as possible, but making things work for arbitrary k is less important than making it work for arbitrary cycle sizes
20:24:07 <oerjan> i'm asking you to make a clear statement of the problem.
20:24:12 <ais523> and I'm pretty tired and haven't really got my head around the problem
20:27:55 <ais523> the "general" problem which this was reduced from was: find an operator such that given a large number of randomly generated equations consisting of variables and that operator on the left, and constants on the right, the resulting set of equations has the maximum possible chance of being solvable
20:28:29 <ais523> obviously this is impossible if the set of expressions contains, say, a.b = 4 and a.b = 5, so it can't be done in general
20:28:42 <ais523> as in, there's no way to make a 100% chance of solvability
20:28:45 <ais523> but I'd like to get it as high as possible
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20:29:46 <ais523> so I'm initially looking at the most basic case (where the LHS is just a single use of the operator), and looking at it as a graph; the operator uses are like edges which connect the variables, which are vertices
20:30:30 <ais523> if a subgraph has more edges than vertices then it's clearly impossible barring very good luck (at most a 1/k chance that it works)
20:30:42 <ais523> if every subgraph has fewer edges than vertices it's trivial
20:31:10 <ais523> so the only remaining case is where there are subgraphs where the number of edges and vertices are equal, but no subgraphs with more edges than vertices
20:31:14 <ais523> which implies that the subgraph is a cycle
20:31:43 <ais523> but it doesn't imply any particular orientation of the edges
20:35:02 <ais523> OK, looks like there's an easy counterexample for a 4-cycle even in the asymmetric case: w.x=1, y.x=1, y.z=2, z.w=3
20:35:24 <ais523> the point being that w.x=1 and y.x=1 together imply that w=y because by the pigeonhole principle, this operation will have to have a left and a right inverse
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20:44:38 <wob_jonas> it's not possible for a four-cycle because of what you said
20:44:59 <wob_jonas> ok, so what condition are you ready to relax?
20:45:19 <ais523> I think the ideal is to move the operation up to three arguments
20:45:32 <ais523> but then the simplifying assumption doesn't really work
20:45:46 <ais523> we just have these randomly generated equations and want an operation that maximises the chance they're solvable
21:04:40 <oerjan> ais523: i don't think your argument that it doesn't work for 4 is quite there, precisely because you can _not_ correct to * w.z = 3, the order is freely chosen.
21:07:19 <ais523> oerjan: no, these are randomly generated equations, so they might have been generated as w.z = 3
21:07:28 <ais523> rather than the other way round
21:07:45 <ais523> still, being able to work with most sequences of directions is better than not being able to work with any of them
21:12:44 <wob_jonas> I think even a three-arg completely symmetric function can't work for a four-cycle.
21:13:35 <wob_jonas> Suppose f is three-arg completely symmetric from the same fixed domain, and for input (a,b,c,d) you want to always have (x,y,z,w) st a=f(x,y,z), b=f(y,z,w), c=f(z,w,x), d=f(w,x,y).
21:13:38 <ais523> not in general, but the odds that all three arguments are involved in the same cycle becomes way lower
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21:24:52 <wob_jonas> Maybe that's actually possible with some sizes of domains, by simply taking f={(x,y,z)|>x+y+z mod k}, such as when k isn't divisible by 3 or something.
21:25:09 <wob_jonas> Maybe there you get in trouble with 6-cycles or something? I dunno.
21:26:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, I see; a=b implies x=w but that doesn't particularly seem to imply anything about the relationship between c and d
21:27:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: what's implied is actually that if you permute (w,x,y,z) in any way, (a,b,c,d) is permuted in the exact same way
21:27:37 <wob_jonas> as a special case, if any two in (w,x,y,z) are equal, then the corresponding two among (a,b,c,d) are equal
21:27:40 <wob_jonas> and of course {(x,y,z,w)|>(a,b,c,d)} is still bijective
21:33:36 <ais523> but yes, f(x,y,z)=x+y+z works for a 4-cycle in the 3-input case (and in general addition works for an (n+1)-cycle in an n-input case)
21:38:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but you run into a problem if you have a 6-cycle and you want the output to depend on three adjacent ones among the six inputs in a symmetric way
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21:44:39 <wob_jonas> are you allowed to use a three-arg operation, but take the first, second and fourth of each four adjacent input variables as input to it in some cyclic order of the input variables? or would that not help in whatever your original problem was?
21:45:31 <wob_jonas> because I think that might work for every cycle length with the right k
21:46:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: the original problem is pretty much "we have a random set of equations of a given complexity, the form/syntax is fixed but the meaning isn't, try to define the meaning to make it as solvable as possible"; if they aren't solvable we have to generate a new set of equations
21:46:47 <ais523> this is part of a compression routine, and we have to count the number of rerolls, so each newly generated set is going to cost a small amount of space
21:47:49 <ais523> it's an idea for a compressor that I had this morning and I'm trying to work out how theoretically viable it is
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21:49:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: hmm... I don't understand how that would make a good compressor, at least if you want to find arbitrary functions rather than nice ones
21:49:50 <wob_jonas> I mean, if you have a nice function like addition or three-arg addition, then sure
21:49:54 <ais523> wob_jonas: the function is hardcoded in the decompressor
21:50:03 <ais523> but I need to know which one to hardcode
21:50:08 <wob_jonas> but for one with a random lookup table, I don't understand
21:50:24 <wob_jonas> even if you can compute it and its inverse efficiently because of crypto magic
21:50:36 <wob_jonas> I don't understand how it would help compress anything
21:51:06 <ais523> do you know how a bloom filter works?
21:51:21 <ais523> the idea is to compress hash tables using something like a cross between a bloom filter and a cuckoo hash
21:52:05 <ais523> let's see… the idea of a bloom filter is that you hash the input into a set of random numbers which are a subset of a larger set
21:52:14 <ais523> normally a fixed number of them (say ten)
21:52:28 <ais523> then you take the union of all the resulting sets for inputs that the filter needs to return true for
21:52:35 <quintopia> ais523: that scheme reminds me of fractal compression somehow
21:52:43 <wob_jonas> I think I've heard of that, just not under this name
21:52:58 <ais523> for most inputs that you don't want a true return value for, at least one of the resulting numbers won't be in the set (not guaranteed, just likely)
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21:53:19 <wob_jonas> it's mentioned in the very last chapter of TAOCP vol 3 I think
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22:00:47 <quintopia> ais523: do you know what game and category has the largest absolute difference in time between TAS and human WR?
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22:12:51 <wob_jonas> quintopia: how would you could games that nobody have completed in realtime?
22:12:58 <wob_jonas> but where there's a TAS completion
22:17:48 <ais523> quintopia: not off by heart
22:18:20 <ais523> it's probably going to be one of the longest TASes on tasvideos, though, or else a game with a credits warp or similar trick that can't be done in realtime
22:19:05 <wob_jonas> one of the longest tases? how would that help?
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22:19:43 <wob_jonas> a credits warp that hasn't yet been executed real time would work, but I don't know of a game like that
22:21:50 <wob_jonas> a game like nethack that has no delays so a TAS can theoretically do everything arbitrarily fast might work, but there are very few such games
22:23:28 <wob_jonas> the problem is that a game with a large difference would have to be one where there is a lot of execution that even the best speedrunner can't learn to do somewhat consistently, and in that case the game would be too tedious to be enjoyable
22:23:43 <wob_jonas> so nobody would actually realtime speedrun it
22:25:24 <ais523> <wob_jonas> one of the longest tases? how would that help? ← if the TAS's speed gain is based on optimisation, then a longer TAS would imply a longer realtime speedrun, and by more
22:26:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: dunno, perhaps, but I think much of the length would be unavoidable waits
22:26:38 <wob_jonas> maybe you're right, I just think there must be some game with a quick credit warp that nobody can do in real time
22:26:41 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> it's ironic that it's hard to do pointfree programming without the "." point character <-- not true, you can use fmap hth
22:26:43 <ais523> huh, I was going to guess Final Fantasy 8, but the realtime WR is actually something like 40 minutes faster
22:27:26 <ais523> for Final Fantasy 9, though, the TAS is over an hour faster
22:29:00 <ais523> it could be language choice and/or platform choice, I guess
22:29:11 <ais523> a language with less text and a platform with faster loading will go a long way in cutscene-heavy games
22:29:34 <wob_jonas> sure, but don't both realtime and TAS usually choose the fastest language?
22:29:44 <wob_jonas> at least when there's such a big difference
22:30:31 <wob_jonas> http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3041Y.html this is the category of TASes with heavy skips. perhaps one of those is one with a very slow realtime record.
22:30:58 <ais523> older TASes used to choose English even when Japanese was faster
22:31:15 <wob_jonas> but determining the realtime speedrun times is tricky because there's like three or four major sites collecting them
22:31:16 <ais523> nowadays the rule is that language choice doesn't count against your time (when comparing runs, time lost/gained to language is ignored)
22:31:34 <ais523> so many people choose the fastest language because they think it's more fun to watch because you have to wait less, but many others choose their native language
22:32:01 <wob_jonas> I know people don't always choose the fastest language when the difference isn't too significant
22:32:25 <ais523> hmm, it looks like it's FF9's steal mechanics that make the TAS so much faster
22:32:38 <ais523> you can get 1/256 probability steals easily in a TAS but they aren't worth going for in realtime
22:39:31 <oerjan> @hoggle (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> m b) -> a1 -> a2 -> m c
22:39:31 <lambdabot> Data.Function.Tools apply2way :: (a -> b -> c) -> (d -> a) -> (d -> b) -> d -> c
22:40:49 <oerjan> curious formatting error
22:43:23 <wob_jonas> what did you say was the difference? http://tasvideos.org/3299M.html vs https://www.speedrun.com/scooby-doo_mystery_mayhem_gba#Any is again around one hour for [Tier: Vault]GBA Scooby-Doo! Mystery Mayhem
22:45:18 <oerjan> i suspect something goes wrong with the @ character
22:45:40 <oerjan> any other modules that have operators with @?
22:45:41 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I was wondering why some responses seemed to have truncated lines, but I didn't guess it was that character
22:45:50 <oerjan> i looked up the module
22:49:57 <oerjan> the web hoogle doesn't seem to have that package
22:51:26 <oerjan> ok it had comonad. the web interface doesn't have this bug
22:51:51 <oerjan> @tell int-e @hoogle has a bug where it cuts off when results contain @
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22:52:26 <oerjan> @tell int-e (the web lookup doesn't have the problem, e.g. +comonad <@> )
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22:54:02 <oerjan> let me try the one in PPCG chat
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22:57:10 <oerjan> it doesn't seem to be in the room
22:57:39 <oerjan> wob_jonas: the haskell room in PPCG's chat sometimes has a lambdabot, although it seems to be offline now.
22:58:40 <oerjan> in fact i think i'm alone in the room
22:58:46 <oerjan> it's not a very active one
22:59:06 <oerjan> (the previous message was someone commenting on my quine answer)
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23:03:56 <shachaf> oerjan: Why does quine 2 use c as a dummy variable rather than s/h/o/w?
23:04:20 <shachaf> I mean, not that it matters.
23:04:44 <wob_jonas> shachaf: h could work, but the others would make the decimal numbers longer
23:04:52 <wob_jonas> oerjan actually cares about golfing there
23:05:59 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i used s/h/o/w before i noticed the length thing. didn't think of keeping h until i'd changed them
23:07:06 <oerjan> shachaf: although for quine 3, i made a point of using many more letters than necessary, to make the code easier to follow
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23:07:39 <oerjan> (so that each use of a letter has approximately the same meaning everywhere)
23:07:40 <wob_jonas> what's the realtime record corresponding to http://tasvideos.org/3134M.html GB Pokémon red AND blue two players on two game boys coop both collect every pokemon, glitchless? that sounds like someone must have done it realtime, but probably not quickly
23:08:33 <wob_jonas> although it's also possible that nobody has done it without accidentally invoking a glitch
23:11:34 <HackEso> The password of the month is <redacted>.
23:11:45 <oerjan> is that the first time?
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23:12:09 <oerjan> `` dowg password | grep -i redacted
23:12:12 <HackEso> 11544:2018-05-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is <redacted>.
23:12:53 <oerjan> `` dowg password | grep -i secret
23:13:26 <HackEso> 4901:2014-09-28 <mroman̈_> learn password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 5001:2014-10-02 <oerjän> learn The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 5002:2014-10-02 <oerjän> revert \ 5006:2014-10-02 <oerjän> learn The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 5052:2014-10-14 <mromän> learn The password of the month is \'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman\' \ 6625:2016-01-29 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is fisherman3 \ 7083:2016-03-05 <int-̈e> learn The password
23:14:05 <oerjan> that was a pretty long month
23:14:34 <HackEso> 2/8:word of the month is qjkxbmwvz \ 7370:2016-04-12 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious \ 7525:2016-04-24 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is zU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ \ 7526:2016-04-24 <gameman̈j> learn The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidociouszU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ (There. Compromise.) \ 7642:2016-05-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is kOMMlIEBERmAIuNDmACHE \ 8507:201
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23:15:21 <HackEso> 3/8:6-06-17 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is viskalikkjesovabortsumarnatta \ 8508:2016-06-17 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is v\xc3\xafskAlikkjesOvab0rtsUmarnatta \ 8877:2016-07-29 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is late. \ 8887:2016-08-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is Strindberg \ 9030:2016-09-12 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is au c\xc5\x93ur de septembre \ 9130:2016-10-01 <oerjän> learn
23:16:30 <HackEso> 4/8: The password of the month is Bierstub\xc3\xab. \ 9627:2016-11-05 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is \xe2\x9b\x84 \ 9813:2016-12-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is lutefisk \ 9815:2016-12-02 <shachäf> undo -2 \ 9816:2016-12-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10065:2017-01-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91 \ 10206:2017-02-04 <int-̈e> lea
23:17:19 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 9627 wisdom/password
23:17:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is ⛄
23:17:34 <HackEso> [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
23:18:24 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r10065 wisdom/password
23:18:25 <HackEso> The password of the month is AАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑ
23:18:37 <HackEso> 5/8:rn The password of the month is n9y25ah7 \ 10373:2017-03-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is OSBDemoLap9W53! \ 10595:2017-04-09 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is bad \ 10898:2017-05-14 <boil̈y> le/rn password//The password of the month is poochpoochpoochpoochpooch \ 10979:2017-06-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is out of date tdnh \ 10980:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10981:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 11081:
23:19:45 <HackEso> 6/8:2017-07-11 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is blowin\' in the wind. \ 11155:2017-08-16 <oerjän> learn The password of the word is unacceptably delayed \ 11164:2017-08-22 <oerjän> slwd password//s, word, month, \ 11180:2017-09-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is chanterelles \ 11206:2017-10-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is revolutionary \ 11236:2017-11-04 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is unavailab
23:20:26 <HackEso> 7/8:le due to budget cuts \ 11250:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs \ 11251:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones) \ 11291:2017-12-31 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is early. \ 11345:2018-02-15 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is late. \ 11444:2018-03-07 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is Schizophren
23:20:59 <HackEso> 8/8:ic Lagomorph \ 11508:2018-04-14 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is way too late to fool anyone. \ 11509:2018-04-14 <oerjän> slwd password//s,.$,, \ 11544:2018-05-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is <redacted>.
23:22:13 <oerjan> quiz: which password has been repeated
23:25:24 <wob_jonas> ``` f=wisdom/password; hg log -T "{rev} {date|isodate}\n" "$f" | head -n 60 | while read r d t; do echo -n "$d: "; hg cat -r$r wisdom/password | sed "s/^The password of the month is //"; done
23:25:36 <wob_jonas> ``` f=wisdom/password; hg log -T "{rev} {date|isodate}\n" "$f" | head -n 333 | while read r d t; do echo -n "$d: "; hg cat -r$r wisdom/password | sed "s/^The password of the month is //"; done | sport
23:26:39 <wob_jonas> ``` f=wisdom/password; hg log -T "{rev} {date|isodate}\n" "$f" | head -n 8 | while read r d t; do echo -n "$d: "; hg cat -r$r wisdom/password | sed "s/^The password of the month is //"; done
23:26:44 <HackEso> 2018-05-05: <redacted>. \ 2018-04-14: way too late to fool anyone \ 2018-04-14: way too late to fool anyone. \ 2018-03-07: Schizophrenic Lagomorph \ 2018-02-15: late. \ 2017-12-31: early. \ 2017-12-01: equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones) \ 2017-12-01: equally offensive to all beliefs
23:27:01 <wob_jonas> ``` f=wisdom/password; hg log -T "{rev} {date|isodate}\n" "$f" | head -n 120 | while read r d t; do echo -n "$d: "; hg cat -r$r wisdom/password | sed "s/^The password of the month is //"; done | sport
23:27:24 <HackEso> 1/4:2018-05-05: <redacted>. \ 2018-04-14: way too late to fool anyone \ 2018-04-14: way too late to fool anyone. \ 2018-03-07: Schizophrenic Lagomorph \ 2018-02-15: late. \ 2017-12-31: early. \ 2017-12-01: equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones) \ 2017-12-01: equally offensive to all beliefs \ 2017-11-04: unavailable due to budget cuts \ 2017-10-01: revolutionary \ 2017-09-02: chanterelles \ 2017-08-22: unacceptably delayed \ 2017-08-16: The
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23:30:41 <HackEso> 2/4:password of the word is unacceptably delayed \ 2017-07-11: blowin' in the wind. \ 2017-06-02: out of date tdnh \ 2017-06-02: poochpoochpoochpoochpooch \ 2017-06-02: out of date tdnh \ 2017-05-14: poochpoochpoochpoochpooch \ 2017-04-09: bad \ 2017-03-08: OSBDemoLap9W53! \ 2017-02-04: n9y25ah7 \ 2017-01-01: AАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑ \ 2016-12-02: lutefisk \ 2016-12-02: ⛄ \ 2016-12-02: lutefisk \ 2016-11-05: ⛄ \ 2016-10-01: Bierstubë. \ 2016-09-12: a
23:31:13 <wob_jonas> huh... hackeso can be as slow to react as hackego apparently
23:31:18 <HackEso> 3/4:u cœur de septembre \ 2016-08-02: Strindberg \ 2016-07-29: late. \ 2016-06-17: vïskAlikkjesOvab0rtsUmarnatta \ 2016-06-17: viskalikkjesovabortsumarnatta \ 2016-05-02: kOMMlIEBERmAIuNDmACHE \ 2016-04-24: supercalifragilisticexpialidociouszU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ (There. Compromise.) \ 2016-04-24: zU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ \ 2016-04-12: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious \ 2016-03-05: qjkxbmwvz \ 2016-01-29: fisherman3 \ 2014-10-14: 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDow
23:31:22 <HackEso> 4/4:n,Oh,Jazzman' \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-09-28: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
23:31:25 <HackEso> 1/4:2018-05-05: <redacted>. \ 2018-04-14: way too late to fool anyone \ 2018-04-14: way too late to fool anyone. \ 2018-03-07: Schizophrenic Lagomorph \ 2018-02-15: late. \ 2017-12-31: early. \ 2017-12-01: equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones) \ 2017-12-01: equally offensive to all beliefs \ 2017-11-04: unavailable due to budget cuts \ 2017-10-01: revolutionary \ 2017-09-02: chanterelles \ 2017-08-22: unacceptably delayed \ 2017-08-16: The
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23:37:28 <wob_jonas> f=wisdom/password; hg log -d "<2014-12-01" -T "{rev} {date|isodate}\n" "$f" | head -n 120 | while read r d t; do echo -n "$d: "; hg cat -r$r wisdom/password | sed "s/^The password of the month is //"; done | sport
23:39:18 <wob_jonas> apparently it's slow for hg to start and access the repository or something
23:39:59 <wob_jonas> ``` f=wisdom/password; hg log -d "<2014-12-01" -T "{rev} {date|isodate}\n" "$f" | head -n 120 | while read r d t; do echo -n "$d: "; hg cat -r$r wisdom/password | sed "s/^The password of the month is //"; done | sport
23:40:06 <HackEso> 1/1:2014-10-14: 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman' \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-09-28: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
23:40:11 <HackEso> 1/1:2014-10-14: 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman' \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-09-28: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
23:40:13 <HackEso> 1/1:2014-10-14: 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman' \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-10-02: The password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ 2014-09-28: password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
23:41:09 <wob_jonas> ``` f=wisdom/password; hg log -T "{date|isodate}\n" "$f" | tac
23:41:10 <HackEso> 2014-09-28 20:04 +0000 \ 2014-10-02 04:01 +0000 \ 2014-10-02 04:10 +0000 \ 2014-10-02 04:15 +0000 \ 2014-10-14 07:48 +0000 \ 2016-01-29 17:09 +0000 \ 2016-03-05 17:33 +0000 \ 2016-04-12 22:17 +0000 \ 2016-04-24 17:03 +0000 \ 2016-04-24 17:05 +0000 \ 2016-05-02 01:20 +0000 \ 2016-06-17 02:10 +0000 \ 2016-06-17 02:11 +0000 \ 2016-07-29 00:51 +0000 \ 2016-08-02 03:17 +0000 \ 2016-09-12 03:41 +0000 \ 2016-10-01 00:22 +0000 \ 2016-11-05 04:16 +0000 \ 2016-12-02
23:41:38 <oerjan> it didn't get regular until 2016
23:46:15 <wob_jonas> I suspect it's still not really regular
23:47:19 <wob_jonas> by the way, I was still thinking of the quine suite thing. I'll have to try to write a quadruple in perl, I think it's just barely possible
23:48:58 <wob_jonas> I couild be wrong though, and I won't find out until I write it
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23:53:29 <wob_jonas> my current thinking is that the first one is just like eval~'nonsense of all high bytes' except the quoting mechanism might change, the second one is like sub\nb{<< x2 .v10.125\nsub\nb{<< x2 .v10.125\n\n} so it uses none of double quote or apostrophe or q,
23:53:59 <wob_jonas> sadly it uses up newline and space but then we still have tabs and two forms of quoting
23:54:59 <wob_jonas> then the third one will be something like *p=[some string literals separated by commas];print@p[some numbers separated by commas]
23:57:18 <wob_jonas> and the fourth one will have assignments to scalars like ($A=q/.../)=>($B=q/.../)=>...=>($M=q/.../^q/.../)=> where $M gets the value "print" and then finishes up with STDOUT->$M($F=>$G=>...=>$Z) which I think can catch up with itself if you use two different quote delimiters
00:00:18 <oerjan> you seem to use = in both the two last ones
00:01:07 <wob_jonas> I know I haven't excluded all possibilities
00:01:28 <wob_jonas> there's a lot that are impossible, but I couldn't restrict the search space enough
00:02:36 <oerjan> also the second one has digits, but i assume you have some other way of geting numbers in the third
00:02:55 <wob_jonas> I can just put dummy strings in the indexes I can't access
00:03:08 <wob_jonas> but I also have some operators free so I might be able to generate other numbers
00:03:23 <wob_jonas> the equals sign is a bigger problem
00:03:29 <wob_jonas> I'll have to think of how to modify the construction
00:03:39 <wob_jonas> and make just a triple if I can't figure it out
00:06:08 <wob_jonas> I know I can't use printf because it's not usable without the letter s, and the letters rins together are too precious. I could use a for loop in the third quine, but I'm not sure if that's enough to make a quine with such restricted quoting options
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00:18:32 <wob_jonas> as an alternative, I was thinking of how sub, warn, die are three disjoint keywords, but that seems to make everything more difficult than if you use eval
00:19:54 <wob_jonas> the indirect method call or indirect function call needs either dollar sign or braces, and also needs round parenthesis
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00:42:30 <HackEso> VST is a Visual Studio Tomorrow, an unofficial evil clone of VS made tomorrow and quantum-tunnelled back in time
00:42:41 <HackEso> vst//VST is a Visual Studio Tomorrow, an unofficial evil clone of VS made tomorrow and quantum-tunnelled back in time.
00:43:08 <HackEso> vst//VST is Visual Studio Tomorrow, an unofficial evil clone of VS made tomorrow and quantum-tunnelled back in time.
00:44:57 <HackEso> 1/2:tht//THT is short for tails-heads-tails, a possible outcome of flipping three coins. It's the opposite of HTH. \ brilliant//B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋
00:45:33 <HackEso> 2/2:l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h̽̀âͮn̩̈́g̫ͣe͉͒ ͦ̓y̙͕o̔͒u̷ͬr͂͐ ̓͝l͙͐ȉ͕f̹́ẹ̲ ̤̹F̌ͅÒ͗R͚̼Ẽ̠V͏ͬE͂͝R̵̜!̱͌ \ we//We are the champions. \ pokemon red//Pokemon Red is a low-level handheld programming language disguised as a game, allowing you to execute arbitrary code from anywhere. \ heck//Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh, or are darned for some other reason.
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00:57:03 <wob_jonas> I got it! The third quine could be like print/3/?"somestring":/4/?"otherstring".../9/?"string":"laststring"for"3",4,8,4,3,8,3,9
01:00:02 <wob_jonas> that uses so few interesting characters
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02:55:25 <izabera> ioooc published the winners
02:58:52 <shachaf> international object oriented obfuscation contest
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05:26:39 <zzo38> Farbfeld Utilities now includes a program to read ZZT world files and save game files. I have compared its output with that from running ZZT in DOSBOX, and it seems to match exactly.
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11:18:04 <wob_jonas> `ioccclist The source code for the winners of the 25th IOCCC has been released. http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2018
11:18:05 <HackEso> ioccclist The source code for the winners of the 25th IOCCC has been released. http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2018: b_jonas
11:18:19 <wob_jonas> I'm the only one subscribed to that? interesting
11:18:38 <wob_jonas> oh well, other people might be loggrepping, so it's still worth to trigger
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13:35:40 <wob_jonas> Wow. the 2018/mills winner of IOCCC is really scary
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15:22:38 <lambdabot> EGLL 071450Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 NCD 27/08 Q1015
15:22:46 <fizzie> That's just ridiculous.
15:28:04 <lambdabot> LOWI 071520Z 08007KT 030V120 9999 SCT080 SCT120 BKN300 23/06 Q1013 NOSIG
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16:07:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kaa-kun * New user account
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16:20:44 <esowiki> [[Useful!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54996&oldid=16408 * Kaa-kun * (-1) Fixed typo, and sure...if you define "gazillion" to be 100.
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16:22:37 <esowiki> [[Template:Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54997&oldid=54994 * Kaa-kun * (-3)
16:23:17 <esowiki> [[Template:Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54998&oldid=54997 * Kaa-kun * (-30)
16:23:25 <esowiki> [[User:Kaa-kun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54999&oldid=54995 * Kaa-kun * (-18) Blanked the page
16:23:29 <esowiki> [[User:Kaa-kun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55000&oldid=54999 * Kaa-kun * (+18)
16:24:02 <esowiki> [[Template:Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55001&oldid=54998 * Kaa-kun * (+17)
16:24:21 <esowiki> [[Template:Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55002&oldid=55001 * Kaa-kun * (+0)
16:27:32 <tswett> So I've been trying to come up with a peculiarly bad set of 4 coin denominations.
16:27:44 <tswett> Here's a pretty reasonable set of coin denominations: 1, 5, 10, 25.
16:28:40 <tswett> You can represent any amount pretty easily with those denominations.
16:28:46 <tswett> Here's a much worse set: 4, 5, 6, 7.
16:30:42 <tswett> But that set is at least capable of representing any amount from 4 up, so it's not quite so peculiarly bad.
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16:31:12 <tswett> 4, 6, 8, 9 is pretty bad.
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16:42:38 <arseniiv> (what does @metar command mean?)
16:43:12 <\oren\> arseniiv: gives the wether reprot for an airport in the metar format
16:43:27 <lambdabot> CYYZ 071600Z 14009G15KT 15SM FEW040 14/00 A3021 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP233
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16:56:24 <lambdabot> KAZO 071653Z 34008KT 10SM CLR 20/06 A3022 RMK AO2 SLP234 T02000056
16:56:54 <tswett> Gee, I miss my IRC log generating bots.
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17:41:49 <esowiki> [[Blank]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55003&oldid=44576 * Chris Pressey * (+25) unefunge.republika.pl is no more; change link to wayback machine
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18:02:18 <HackEso> olist 1120: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:14:37 <HackEso> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
20:14:55 <wob_jonas> see, the wisdom database has an explanation for everything
20:15:16 <Taneb> I should really configure my client so that HackEso doesn't ping me
20:15:34 <wob_jonas> mind you, it's mostly for aviation nerds, not for esoteric programming nerds, but still
20:16:01 <Taneb> Can someone in 30 seconds or so get HackEso to say my name again
20:16:46 <HackEso> The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma.
20:17:15 <Taneb> Yay, I didn't get an alert
20:20:56 <shachaf> Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old
20:21:07 <Taneb> shachaf, not at all
20:21:14 <Taneb> I would never suggest that it's getting slightly old
20:22:34 <shachaf> Hmm, D-modules might be relevant to my current interests
20:24:14 <Taneb> D-modules, weetoflakes, and automatic squirrel feeders
20:24:17 <arseniiv> see, the wisdom database has an explanation for everything> :D
20:24:56 <HackEso> 1/2:tht//THT is short for tails-heads-tails, a possible outcome of flipping three coins. It's the opposite of HTH. \ ub//ub is a saner hub. \ fisherman's friend//Fisherman's Friend is the friend of the palate that is more sore than discerning. \ zygohistomorphic prepromorphism//A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into
20:25:06 <HackEso> 2/2: the functor. \ tdnh//tdnh does not help
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20:30:43 <arseniiv> zygohistomorphic prepromorphism> it follows me :o
20:31:16 <arseniiv> zygohistomorphic prepromorphism seem to follow me
20:31:27 <arseniiv> I seem to have been seen it lately
20:31:55 <arseniiv> I was reading on general recursion schemes
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20:32:10 <wob_jonas> you have probably seen it on https://wiki.haskell.org/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms , which is where the meme originates
20:33:46 <wob_jonas> the meme got so famous that people even asked questions https://stackoverflow.com/q/5057136/ and https://www.quora.com/What-are-Zygohistomorphic-prepromorphisms-and-how-are-they-used
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21:42:56 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: thanks, an interesting read!
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22:27:13 <HackEso> PPCG is pretty portable code generation. Unfortunately, it's prone to overflowing the stack.
22:27:47 <HackEso> CGI stands for uh... C, goblin, interface?
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22:36:58 <boily> speaking of C, the IOCCC are in!
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22:37:43 <boily> helloochaf, arselloniiv.
22:44:48 <user24> Given two strings, what would be interesting ways to mix them?
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23:15:50 <shachaf> user24: In how many dimensions?
23:16:22 <user24> shachaf: just two linear strings
23:17:08 <user24> I'm building an agent simulation (they think in brainfuck)
23:17:11 <user24> https://github.com/void4/bfagent/blob/master/anim.gif
23:25:10 <user24> when they decide to reproduce, I want to recombinate their code strings
23:27:26 <shachaf> user24: maybe take more direct inspiration from dna hth
23:27:52 <shachaf> I'd be interested in a language with the property that making small changes to code can result in interesting changes in the program (rather than a syntax error or something).
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23:50:45 <arseniiv> shachaf: In idea section on the wiki, I saw an idea to pick a point in some space, and it will be the code, and what it does is decided by dynamics of that point in that space. The space would be fixed once and for all, and it should be sufficiently complex, e. g. some periodical force field
23:52:52 <arseniiv> with this, variating the point slightly should variate runtime behaviour. Depending on how to interpret the point’s evolution, it could be possible any program is valid. Or at least it would be a runtime-error, not a static one :D
23:54:47 <arseniiv> for me, I was fascinated by an idea of using knots or braids, but I can’t make any interesting use of that idea yet (unless it’s a simple C-like language with only knots/braids for a datatype. But it seems boring?)
23:57:41 <shachaf> I don't know anything about genetics but I have a suspicion that among all the easy-to-specify properties of modern (e.g. human) genomes, like what they actually do, is this sort of malleability where small mutations can have meaningful effects rather than causing errors.
23:58:01 <shachaf> This is as much a property of the program as it is a property of the language (if you can even distinguish between those).
23:58:15 <shachaf> I'd be interested in esolangs and programs that have these kinds of properties.
23:58:43 <arseniiv> *vary> varying the point…, oh, thx
00:02:10 <arseniiv> shachaf: if for the string-based ones, I dunno… maybe no instruction should be too powerful there, so its deletion/insertion not be too big an issue. And maybe largely less focus on matching constructions, something less global and more localized…
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00:03:31 <arseniiv> since I start rhyming incidentally, I ought to go take some sleep
00:06:15 <oerjan> there are certainly small mutations that are absolutely lethal, so it's more that it's *possible* for mutations to improve matters.
00:07:13 <shachaf> The point is more the kind of impact that mutations can have.
00:07:44 <oerjan> you'd think genetic programming would use such languages, if they exist.
00:07:50 <shachaf> Part of it is also that animals etc. are built very differently from most computer programs or machines.
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00:24:09 <oerjan> also i was right about who was in that ship in girl genius. too bad i didn't say it in public.
00:26:52 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old <Taneb> shachaf, not at all <Taneb> I would never suggest that it's getting slightly old
00:26:54 <HackEso> 1323) <shachaf> Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old <Taneb> shachaf, not at all <Taneb> I would never suggest that it's getting slightly old
00:27:41 <oerjan> i thought that was the right spacing
00:27:47 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
00:31:56 <oerjan> that doesn't look like the right spot
00:32:10 <HackEso> oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf boil̈y oerjän oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän Jafët shachäf oerjän oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän shachäf oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf
00:32:39 <HackEso> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
00:32:54 <shachaf> `` cwlprits oerjan | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
00:32:54 <HackEso> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
00:32:56 <HackEso> 118 shachäf \ 53 oerjän \ 11 boil̈y \ 5 noloveinwaikik̈i \ 2 Jafët \ 1 nitïa \ 1 int-̈e \ 1 hppavilion[1̈]
00:33:08 <shachaf> maybe i should ease up on it
00:34:13 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
00:35:27 <oerjan> `` echo <oren> | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
00:35:28 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error near unexpected token `|' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: `echo <oren> | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/''
00:36:06 <oerjan> `` echo '<oren>' | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
00:36:34 <oerjan> hm that's correct, there must be a space in the culprit
00:36:52 <HackEso> <\oren̈\> le/rn cgi/CGI stands for uh... C, goblin, interface?
00:37:27 <oerjan> it's stripping backslashes
00:37:54 <oerjan> `` echo '<\oren\>' | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
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00:38:53 <oerjan> `` hoag "wisdom/cgi" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}'
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00:40:04 <oerjan> hm someone used a better command the other day...
00:41:00 <oerjan> `` echo '\oren̈\' | xargs
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00:44:04 <shachaf> make a better program and put it in bin/ twh
00:53:01 <HackEso> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
00:54:06 <oerjan> `sled bin/culprits//s,$, -d '\n',
00:54:08 <HackEso> bin/culprits//hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d ' \ '
00:54:37 <oerjan> `sled bin/culprits//s,$, -d'\\n',
00:54:39 <HackEso> bin/culprits//hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n'
00:54:52 <shachaf> Are you sure the first version wouldn't have worked?
00:55:39 <shachaf> I guess it's confusing regardless.
00:55:57 <HackEso> cd bin; sled "$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Rosbbud!/'
00:56:04 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cblprits: not found
01:57:57 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55004&oldid=54990 * Voltage2007 * (+9) The github link is dead.
02:00:05 <esowiki> [[Call Queue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55005&oldid=37009 * Camto * (+106) Implementation of Call Queue dialect called if Call Queue.
02:00:46 <esowiki> [[Call Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55006&oldid=55005 * Camto * (-26) Remove tag cuz now it's implemented.
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02:18:55 <esowiki> [[Call Queue/if Call Queue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55007 * Camto * (+1627) Create the if Call Queue page.
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02:22:04 <esowiki> [[Call Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55008&oldid=55006 * Camto * (+37) Esolangs link for if Call Queue
02:26:42 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55009&oldid=55004 * Oerjan * (+1) template
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04:07:00 <esowiki> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55010&oldid=55009 * Voltage2007 * (-71439) Rewrote the Fizzbuzz code. Each row has 50 +s.
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08:14:29 <wob_jonas> boily: yes, I even rang the `ioccclist after izabera mentioned that they're in
08:14:44 <wob_jonas> but apparently only I'm subscribed to it so far
08:15:20 <wob_jonas> the mills entry is quite impressive, even though half of the impressive part isn't actually written in C
08:19:22 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: you've seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome , an esolang where an unlabeled undirected graph is the only data structure you have
08:19:36 <wob_jonas> I'm mentioning that because of the knots thing
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11:37:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Illuminatu * New user account
11:40:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55011&oldid=54992 * Illuminatu * (+334) /* Introductions */
11:41:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55012&oldid=55011 * Illuminatu * (+7) /* Introductions */
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12:23:03 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: yeah I’ve seen Eodermdrome
12:24:52 <arseniiv> but knots are essentially “uniform”, you could draw them differently and it will be good if these differences wouldn’t change a thing in language semantics
12:29:38 <arseniiv> but maybe knot diagrams are a way to go, though! There could be an action when a part of the diagram changes and the runtime could be trying to simplify it in between
12:33:44 <esowiki> [[Fucklang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55013 * Iqbigbang * (+1584) Created page with "Fucklang is an assembly-like but human-readable lanugage that is compiled to brainfuck. It's main purpose is to make programming in brainfuck faster, better and more efficient..."
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12:56:10 <esowiki> [[Fucklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55014&oldid=55013 * Iqbigbang * (+831)
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13:03:16 <esowiki> [[Fucklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55015&oldid=55014 * Iqbigbang * (-40)
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13:18:02 <esowiki> [[Fucklang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55016&oldid=55015 * Iqbigbang * (+163) /* Input/Output */
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13:24:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Freetrav * New user account
13:26:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55017&oldid=55012 * Freetrav * (+158) /* Introductions */
13:27:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55018&oldid=55017 * Freetrav * (+81) /* Introductions */
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14:07:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:LOLCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55019 * Freetrav * (+1310) Created page with "== Suggestions for Syntax/Spec Changes == It appears that '''''BUKKIT''''' is more analogous to '''struct''' or '''record''' in other languages, rather than '''array'''. Shou..."
14:08:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:LOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55020&oldid=55019 * Freetrav * (+81) /* Suggestions for Syntax/Spec Changes */
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14:31:59 <arseniiv> trying to use new GIMP 2.10 https://s31.postimg.cc/kudn19cmz/theeye.png
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19:34:01 <esowiki> [[User:Illuminatu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55021 * Illuminatu * (+49) Created page with "Illuminatu is a high school student from Florida."
19:49:57 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55022&oldid=54124 * Illuminatu * (+0) /* DNA-code */
20:03:44 <HackEso> smlist 460: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
20:14:31 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
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20:17:49 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
20:18:49 <HackEso> list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
20:19:23 <Cale> I haven't yet read that webcomic, but I've had a couple people recommend it to me before
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20:24:00 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55023&oldid=54908 * BoutonIA * (+256)
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20:28:26 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55024&oldid=55023 * BoutonIA * (+11)
20:29:44 <int-e> Oh I can see how I was once lured into OOTS... it used a larger font size in the beginning :P
20:32:17 <int-e> (But later strips, well, let's just say that I prefer to read novels in the ordinary rectangular page format, not from speech bubbles, thank you very much.)
20:33:12 <int-e> That, and I guess I'm just not into D&D at all.
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20:59:39 <rdococ> I'm looking into delimited continuations.
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22:16:35 <HackEso> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
22:17:04 <quintopia> does that even ping you when you're wob_jonas
22:24:49 <int-e> . o O ( but I'm not )
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22:29:25 <wob_jonas> quintopia: since wob_jonas is not logged in most of the time, and I just read or grep the logs, it doesn't matter
22:30:11 <wob_jonas> but I've also just noticed the new pbf, and was about to list it but then saw that it's already listed
22:30:42 <wob_jonas> you should put an url the pbflist command though, to make it clear which strip is listed. this time it's http://pbfcomics.com/comics/news-puppy/
22:35:25 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, the font size is smaller. basically the free strips on the web are limited resolution, which is one of the ways how the Giant encourages people to buy the payed comic, whether in printed or digital form, since it has better image resolution.
22:35:45 <wob_jonas> (the digital one is actually mostly vector images)
22:37:09 <HackEso> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not i
22:37:27 <shachaf> Is the joke of o that it's really long?
22:38:00 <wob_jonas> shachaf: there's no joke, I just copied some of the description from that interview with Giant
22:38:24 <wob_jonas> well, if there's a joke then it's that the entry is named "o" because the list is named "olist", rather than the more logical "oots" and "ootslist" resp
22:38:31 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2`: not found
22:38:44 <shachaf> oerjan: what's that thing called twh
22:38:49 <HackEso> 2/2:ot in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's a comedy.
22:42:04 <wob_jonas> also, the entry doesn't clearly tell the name of the webcomic, or its url, so it's not very useful for someone who hasn't already heard of the comic
22:42:22 <wob_jonas> so it's a wisdom entry that's true but useless, as typical
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00:16:32 <oerjan> what is that DNA code on the Befunge page that Illuminatu just made an edit to...
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00:24:20 <HackEso> 2/2:ot in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's a comedy.
00:25:11 <fizzie> A 56-character random string of the alphabet {A, C, G, T} followed by a CRLF, judging from the code. With a somewhat curious distribution.
00:25:35 <oerjan> did the edit make it better or worse?
00:26:57 <fizzie> The edit made it stop after 56 characters instead of looping forever, which may or may not be intentional. There's a (non-executed) @ in the program, so.
00:27:10 <fizzie> The pre-edit version printed an infinite amount of 56-character lines.
00:28:58 <fizzie> I don't think there's really objective ways to rank either as better or worse, they're just different.
00:31:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh. I tried `2, but of course this mkes more sense.
00:31:46 <oerjan> it was apparently added in User:Alikberov's only contribution.
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01:23:04 <esowiki> [[Mmmm()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55025&oldid=46158 * Camto * (+589) <code> tag everywhere!
01:24:37 <esowiki> [[Call Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55026&oldid=55008 * Camto * (+24) Yay now it's implemented.
01:42:25 <esowiki> [[Mmmm()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55027&oldid=55025 * Camto * (+0) Whoops
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03:40:21 * oerjan just used scare quotes on "scary"
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04:37:39 * oerjan suspects that's klaus shouting in the last panel... although maybe it's albia.
04:38:17 <oerjan> (also, everything so far is exactly according to my theory)
04:42:46 <oerjan> also, "three years" is a bit peeking through the fourth wall
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07:29:39 <oerjan> int-e: pretty close to three years.
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08:36:28 <Taneb> Future oerjan: I assumed Albia
08:38:58 <HackEso> cat: bin/gglist: No such file or directory
08:39:09 <shachaf> i,i `learn gglist is a list of good games.
08:39:34 <shachaf> i,i http://qwantz.com/index.php?comic=472
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08:53:08 <int-e> Taneb: me too. of course there is also that unknown intruder with the lantern...
08:53:16 <int-e> (at least I don't know who that is)
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14:36:04 <izabera> gzip has a somewhat small window
14:36:46 <izabera> so if you get 1mb from /dev/urandom, and then concatenate multiple copies of it, gzip won't be able to detect it
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16:05:09 <wob_jonas> izabera: yes. gzip is a rather old format. these days I use 7zip for archiving and compressing most things. I've recently used 7zip to compress like twenty very similar two megabyte sized text files with progressive changes and another twenty variants of a sixty kilobyte sized file
16:05:39 <wob_jonas> 7z also has a nice range of strength settings so you can balance compression ratio to compression speed.
16:06:00 <wob_jonas> what it doesn't have is a good software interface, at least yet
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16:31:12 <esowiki> [[Template:SelfBot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55028 * Kaa-kun * (+308) Created page with "<div class="toccolours" align="center">This user is a '''[[Template:Bot|bot]]''', operated by {{GENDER:.|him|her|him}}self. {{GENDER:.|He|She|He}} is a '''legitimate alternati..."
16:31:36 <esowiki> [[Template:SelfBot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55029&oldid=55028 * Kaa-kun * (-4)
16:32:05 <esowiki> [[User:Maxsteele2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55030&oldid=21002 * Kaa-kun * (+12) How else can he have created Useful!?
16:39:13 <int-e> I guess it could be an esoteric summer camp.
16:43:16 <Taneb> I was thinking "esoteric song contest"
16:43:29 <int-e> where's the fun in that
16:44:06 <fungot> int-e: ( a) an entity unqualified or poorly qualified to be changed with eir own vvlop by one, subject to a matter
16:44:35 <HackEso> 796) <tswett> You know what, I'm really sleepy and I should go to bed *right now*. I'm not even going to bo \ 241) <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
16:55:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55031&oldid=54951 * Mr. Xcoder * (-4)
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20:05:25 <arseniiv> http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala — Scala is not a language, I knew it!!
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22:14:51 <lambdabot> CYUL 092200Z 15009KT 15SM FEW120 FEW210 26/03 A2997 RMK AC1CI1 AC TR SLP150 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
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00:17:12 <boily> bonsϿirjan. how's the Northern Life?
00:26:40 <lambdabot> ENVA 092350Z 14011KT CAVOK 18/05 Q1010 RMK WIND 670FT 15015KT
00:29:41 <lambdabot> KOAK 092353Z 28024KT 10SM FEW010 FEW200 18/11 A3003 RMK AO2 PK WND 28029/2336 SLP170 T01780106 10194 20156 57020
00:42:40 <oerjan> <shachaf> `cat bin/gglist <-- it's usually too regular to warrant a list.
00:57:16 <esowiki> [[User:Maxsteele2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55032&oldid=55030 * Oerjan * (-12) Undo revision 55030 by [[Special:Contributions/Kaa-kun|Kaa-kun]] ([[User talk:Kaa-kun|talk]]) (We generally let people control their own user pages, within limits.)
01:02:15 <esowiki> [[User talk:Kaa-kun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55033 * Oerjan * (+239) Reverted edit
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12:25:29 <PinealGlandOptic> hi! are there NP-complete/hard compress algorithms? just wondering.
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12:43:41 <dcxxv> How should I understand your intentions in this channel?
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14:16:12 <Cale> Is there a pbflist?
14:16:21 <HackEso> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
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14:41:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Galaxtone * New user account
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15:05:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55034&oldid=55018 * Galaxtone * (+430) My introduction, hopefully I did it correctly.
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15:16:18 <oerjan> int-e: Taneb: thought of a third option: martellus. he's the one we've seen go most ballistic over vapnoople previously.
15:16:44 <Taneb> I'm going to have to do a reread at some point
15:18:03 <oerjan> i missed a lot of sleep the other day because i did some of that.
15:21:08 <Galaxtone> Do I just introduce myself on the page and I'm done or is it like manual?
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15:29:31 <oerjan> Galaxtone: it's automatic
15:30:33 <oerjan> there's simply a filter that forbids edits to any other page until you have at least one edit.
15:31:28 <oerjan> (with some extra checks on that first edit)
15:32:30 <oerjan> mostly for those things listed on the page itself, like not editing anything else on it
15:33:05 <oerjan> anyway, you've already passed.
15:33:41 <oerjan> i mean, the filter will also forbid edits to that page that don't confirm to (some of) the guidelines listed.
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16:49:13 <shachaf> Cale: Yes, but that one was already listed
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16:58:27 <arseniiv> hey; it occurred to me that that not-Nora-again esolang could just be called fu. Like in kung-fu or like 福 or like that nasty abbreviation, and not in any case the first two letters of “functional”
16:59:51 <Taneb> What's wrong with the name Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
16:59:59 <Taneb> Or were you referring to a different language
17:01:21 <shachaf> People were talking about naming a different language after Nora.
17:01:40 <shachaf> imo one nora spam language is exactly the right number
17:03:22 <shachaf> Should this be listed as a Tanebvention?
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17:09:33 <arseniiv> Taneb: on another one, wob_jonas used Nora trope on it several times :D
17:10:19 <arseniiv> when I first come here, I had asked what it could be named
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17:34:13 <wob_jonas> Cale: hello. http://pbfcomics.com/comics/news-puppy/ has already been listed a few days ago, but please put a URL or something in the pbflist command so that the next person who wants to list it can tell that from the logs, since the pbf website doesn't easily tell you the date of publ'n of the strips
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17:34:46 <wob_jonas> and yes, I was the one talking about that
17:35:43 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Or just use the comic number?
17:36:07 <wob_jonas> I don't think pbf tells the number either. it has titles which are in the url.
17:36:41 <shachaf> The title text has a number.
17:37:50 <wob_jonas> I see. is there a way to display strips by number? I know that several strips aren't listed in the bottom of the page ever since that part of the webpage has been redesigned.
17:38:41 <wob_jonas> and not just not visible in the bottom list, mind you:
17:38:59 <wob_jonas> they're also removed from the linked list of next-prev links, eg. http://pbfcomics.com/comics/game-system/
17:39:16 <wob_jonas> by the way, that one doesn't have a number in the title
17:39:36 <wob_jonas> it looks like pbf is trying to hide strips
17:39:37 <shachaf> Oh, apparently the title doesn't always ahve a number.
17:40:21 <shachaf> In that case I don't know.
17:40:23 <wob_jonas> O&M hid some strips too, but apparently most of them were hidden by mistake and they put most of them back when I asked nicely, removing only a few fillers
17:42:31 <wob_jonas> this is exactly the sort of thing why I sometimes download webpages before they disappear
17:42:49 <wob_jonas> I haven't done it with pbf, but for O&M it was totally worth
17:43:12 <wob_jonas> and there's more I should download
17:45:40 <wob_jonas> that, and searchability and faster access of course
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18:54:24 <HackEso> pk Guennisin \ 1 c Mayonnaise \ 1 lb Lean bag in microwave \ 1 Onion; chopped fine \ \ Saute the peas in the refrigerator at least 8 hours. \ \ Prepare pastry and expanpie with a layer of the squares, on the salads and lightly, and set \ over a slotted serving plate to cook. \ \ In a large saucepan, combine the vegetables and blend well. \ \ From: Fine, Help-jellini \ by Market Alaskarel Cookbook_ by Inrow \ MMCONV. \ \ MMMMM \ \
18:54:39 <HackEso> 1/2:wealhtheow//Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring party of Beowulf meet at the start of the story. \ pronounceable c//int main open paren close paren open curly printeff open paren double quote pronounceable capital c is the most verbose esoteric language ever comma god help you if you try to code with it comma especially without newlines period double quote close paren semicolon close curly \ bicyclic monoid//The bicycli
18:54:43 <HackEso> 2/2:c monoid is the free monoid generated by two wheels of a bicycle, quotiented by the restriction that the bicycle itself is equal to the identity. \ kitt//Kitt is the singular of kitten. \ tribble//99 tribbles on the wall, take one down, pass it around, 117 tribbles on the wall.
19:00:44 * int-e wonders how the GDPR affects mediawiki installations
19:03:47 <int-e> also, wtf is a "purely personal or household activity"
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21:31:47 <fizzie> fungot: Who do you think will win this year?
21:31:47 <fungot> fizzie: the insistence of any team, plus each member of the following
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22:03:43 <rain1> http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/pipelogic/index.php
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22:14:35 <Cale> shachaf: How do I add myself?
22:14:59 <shachaf> "`` echo Cale >> bin/pbflist"
22:15:12 <Cale> `` echo Cale >> bin/pbflist
22:15:57 <HackEso> bin/aglist \ bin/bardsworthlist \ bin/calesyta2016list \ bin/danddreclist \ bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/erflist \ bin/FireFlist \ bin/flist \ bin/idealist \ bin/ioccclist \ bin/keenlist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/listlist \ bin/llist \ bin/makelist \ bin/makelistlist \ bin/minimalist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/stylist \ bin/testlist \ bin/wrlist \ bin/xkcdwhatiflist
22:16:21 <Cale> of course there would be a listlist
22:16:47 <shachaf> I think some of these lists are no longer necessary.
22:16:49 <HackEso> FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ wrlist \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
22:17:28 <Cale> Oh, it's more literally a list of the lists, not a list of people interested in new lists.
22:17:34 <shachaf> That's makelistlist, I guess.
22:17:42 <shachaf> `cat bin/makelistlist | rot13
22:17:43 <HackEso> cat: 'bin/makelistlist | rot13': No such file or directory
22:17:46 <shachaf> `` cat bin/makelistlist | rot13
22:17:47 <HackEso> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns
22:17:57 <shachaf> Apparently I'm the only person interested in new lists.
22:18:16 <HackEso> if [[ "$1" == *" "* ]]; then exec makelist $@; fi; name="$1"; file="bin/$name"; makelistlist "$name"; shift; cp bin/emptylist "$file"; for n in "$@"; do echo "$n" >> "$file"; done
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22:19:15 <shachaf> i,i liststhatdonotcontainthemselveslist
22:20:51 <shachaf> Cale: Do you Spyparty? I don't remember whether I asked.
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22:27:44 <Cale> I don't know what that is
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00:55:57 <shachaf> copumpkin: whoa whoa whoa, are you a train h8r
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02:03:17 <zzo38> Is the Free Hero Mesh preprocessor Turing-complete?
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04:27:51 <oerjan> well that settles that.
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07:35:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55035&oldid=54720 * Galaxtone * (+1815) Figuring out how this works, testing everything.
07:35:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55036&oldid=55035 * Galaxtone * (-1815) Blanked the page
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08:39:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Schmuui * New user account
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08:59:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55037&oldid=55034 * Schmuui * (+89)
08:59:34 <esowiki> [[User:Schmuui]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55038 * Schmuui * (+69) Created page with "''Schmuu schmuu!'' Hi! I'm Schmuui and I'm the creator of [[Schmuu]]."
08:59:49 <esowiki> [[User:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55039&oldid=55038 * Schmuui * (+1)
09:03:34 <Taneb> shachaf: is spyparty the one where everyone but one person gets told what's going on, and they all take turns asking each other questions about it
09:05:28 <shachaf> Taneb: No, it's a computer game for two people.
09:05:45 <shachaf> One person is a spy and pretends to be a computer player while trying to accomplish missions.
09:06:17 <shachaf> Or maybe everyone in this channel except me knows what's going on.
09:09:18 <Taneb> Oh, I think I've seen that!
09:10:03 <Taneb> Can't find the one I was thinking about
09:18:28 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55040 * Schmuui * (+1227) Created page with "Schmuu (no so commonly shortened to sch) is, as of typing this, is a esolang concept. It is created by [[User:Schmuui]]. The file format is .sch. == Usage == === List of fun..."
09:19:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55041&oldid=54960 * Schmuui * (+13) /* S */
09:23:54 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55042&oldid=55040 * Schmuui * (+114) /* List of functions and stuffs (couldn't think of the right name for this XD) */
09:25:01 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55043&oldid=55042 * Schmuui * (-8) /* List of functions and stuffs (couldn't think of the right name for this XD) */
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09:28:14 <schmuui> check it out here: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Schmuu
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09:34:33 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55044&oldid=55043 * Schmuui * (+113) /* List of functions and stuffs (couldn't think of the right name for this XD) */
09:36:02 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55045&oldid=55044 * Schmuui * (-45) /* List of functions and stuffs (couldn't think of the right name for this XD) */
09:37:10 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55046&oldid=55045 * Schmuui * (+1) /* List of functions and Commands */
09:37:38 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55047&oldid=55046 * Galaxtone * (-15)
09:38:47 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55048&oldid=55047 * Schmuui * (-1) /* List of Sstatements */
09:39:28 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55049&oldid=55048 * Schmuui * (+3) /* List of statements */
09:40:05 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55050&oldid=55049 * Schmuui * (+3) /* List of statements */
09:45:53 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55051&oldid=55050 * Schmuui * (+23)
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09:49:27 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55052&oldid=55051 * Galaxtone * (+135) Changed if statement and variable assignment
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09:55:36 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55053&oldid=55052 * Schmuui * (+28)
10:05:27 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55054&oldid=55053 * Schmuui * (+251)
10:06:40 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55055&oldid=55054 * Schmuui * (+29) /* List of statements */
10:07:06 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55056&oldid=55055 * Schmuui * (+0) /* Examples */
10:07:36 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55057&oldid=55056 * Schmuui * (-10) /* Breakfast */
10:13:02 <int-e> fizzie: oh I was worried about the wiki and GDPR... but actually, what about the logs... such a mine field...
10:34:25 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55058&oldid=55057 * Galaxtone * (+506)
10:36:55 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55059&oldid=55058 * Galaxtone * (-21)
10:38:24 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55060&oldid=55059 * Schmuui * (+34) /* List of statements */
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11:54:20 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55061&oldid=54650 * Schmuui * (+18) pronunciation
12:00:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55062 * Galaxtone * (+303) Creation, First message
12:01:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55063&oldid=55062 * Galaxtone * (+53) /* Format */
12:01:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55064&oldid=55063 * Galaxtone * (+1) /* How to chat */
12:01:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55065&oldid=55064 * Galaxtone * (-29) /* Schmuu Talk Section */
12:02:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Galaxtone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55066 * Galaxtone * (+316) Created page with "== How to chat == Just edit the page and add something like this. <nowiki>* Test! This is a message, no newlines, I'm just me talking here. ~~~~</nowiki> == Chat == * And I..."
12:19:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55067&oldid=55065 * Schmuui * (+80) /* Chat */
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12:23:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Schmuu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55068 * Schmuui * (+3) Created page with "..."
12:24:42 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55069&oldid=55060 * Schmuui * (+0) /* List of statements */
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13:51:09 <fizzie> int-e: I don't want to think about it. :/
14:15:07 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55070&oldid=55069 * Galaxtone * (+109) Changed text at the top
14:15:36 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55071&oldid=55070 * Galaxtone * (+1) Made a small typo
14:17:01 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55072&oldid=55067 * Galaxtone * (+102)
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14:47:52 <esowiki> [[User:Galaxtone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55073 * Galaxtone * (+379) Created page with "Hello, I'm Galaxtone. Nice to meet you, If you want we can [[User_talk:Galaxtone|talk]]. == Interpreters == I plan to implement many esoteric languages from this site on my..."
14:48:28 <esowiki> [[User:Galaxtone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55074&oldid=55073 * Galaxtone * (+8)
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14:49:10 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55075&oldid=55071 * Galaxtone * (-6) Removed "it is" to sound better.
14:52:05 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55076&oldid=55075 * Galaxtone * (+8) Changed the "get value from module" command
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14:54:51 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55077&oldid=55076 * Galaxtone * (+7) Going to start using minor edit now, Changed the hello world program.
15:13:25 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55078&oldid=55077 * Galaxtone * (+492) Added types
15:15:33 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55079&oldid=55078 * Galaxtone * (+0) Made very tiny typo
15:16:45 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55080&oldid=55079 * Galaxtone * (+3) /* List of types */
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15:23:07 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55081&oldid=55080 * Galaxtone * (+94) Added a clause for types to be grammatically correct.
15:25:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55082&oldid=55072 * Galaxtone * (+63) /* Chat */
15:25:21 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55083&oldid=55081 * Galaxtone * (+5) /* List of types */
15:27:38 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55084&oldid=55083 * Galaxtone * (-2) Changed name of string manipulation module
15:29:15 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55085&oldid=55084 * Galaxtone * (-3) Changed name of math module
15:29:44 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55086&oldid=55085 * Galaxtone * (+1) /* Hello World */
15:32:32 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55087&oldid=55086 * Galaxtone * (+31) Added some curve to the code div
15:43:40 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55088&oldid=55087 * Galaxtone * (+533) /* Examples */
15:44:08 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55089&oldid=55088 * Galaxtone * (-4) /* Non-terminating Cat */
15:44:55 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55090&oldid=55089 * Galaxtone * (+15) /* Non-terminating Cat */
15:45:06 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55091&oldid=55090 * Galaxtone * (-5) /* = */
15:45:51 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55092&oldid=55091 * Galaxtone * (+19) /* Examples */
15:46:17 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55093&oldid=55092 * Galaxtone * (-38) /* Non-terminating Cat */
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15:50:34 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55094&oldid=55093 * Galaxtone * (+205) /* List of statements */
15:51:56 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55095&oldid=55094 * Galaxtone * (+89) /* List of statements */
15:53:43 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55096&oldid=55095 * Galaxtone * (+95) /* List of statements */
15:54:07 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55097&oldid=55096 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* List of statements */
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16:45:31 <arseniiv> somebody showed me cool micro-stories: https://mastodon.social/@MicroSFF
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17:23:39 <int-e> cute. second one reminds me of a short story I once read... about dragons who were always bothered by a knight... so one day, all other dragons being injured and tired, the smallest of them went out and challenged the knight to a game of hide and seek... the knight won, but really everybody had fun and was happy in the end.
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17:45:59 <zzo38> Is the Free Hero Mesh preprocessor Turing-complete?
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18:03:32 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55098&oldid=55097 * Galaxtone * (+220) Fixed bug in documentation stated by umnikos
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18:07:58 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55099&oldid=55098 * Galaxtone * (+59)
18:08:11 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55100&oldid=55099 * Galaxtone * (+1)
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18:27:30 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55101&oldid=55100 * Galaxtone * (+50)
18:28:19 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55102&oldid=55101 * Galaxtone * (+3)
18:28:32 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55103&oldid=55102 * Galaxtone * (+1)
18:29:05 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55104&oldid=55103 * Galaxtone * (+0)
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18:41:24 <HackEso> olist 1121: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:33:18 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55105&oldid=55104 * Schmuui * (+1) an is if a vowel's up next
22:36:42 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55106&oldid=54687 * Schmuui * (+56)
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23:55:40 <oerjan> <zzo38> Who settles what? <-- the question of who was shouting in the previous girl genius comic (Albia)
23:56:33 <int-e> Albia *was* a candidate, it was just unclear why she'd be shouting.
00:00:20 <oerjan> (but who will she be shouting at next?)
00:00:27 <oerjan> *that* might be klaus.
00:02:25 <shachaf> did Schmuui feature themselves on the main page
00:02:39 <shachaf> I guess the featured languge is still the same at least.
00:07:27 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55107&oldid=55061 * Oerjan * (+2) Keep pronunciation out of bold. Add bold for redirect target.
00:08:47 <oerjan> i haven't gotten to that edit yet.
00:13:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55108&oldid=55082 * Oerjan * (+45) *MWAHAHAHA* Unsigned
00:16:56 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55109&oldid=55106 * Oerjan * (-56) Undo revision 55106 by [[Special:Contributions/Schmuui|Schmuui]] ([[User talk:Schmuui|talk]]) (Not the place for this. Happy birthday though!)
00:19:13 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh preprocessor has a few built-in macros, such as {define} and {call}. If you write {define string tokens} (where the word "define" is literal) then it defines a macro (you can redefine existing macros too) (the expansion defines the macro and produces nothing), and {call string tokens} calls a macro (including a built-in macro) (the expansion just produces the tokens).
00:21:06 <zzo38> There is a few special things: In a macro definition, \1 is replaced by the first argument, \2 by the second argument, etc; \\1 becomes \1 and \\\1 becomes \\1 and so on; anything in {} is treated as one argument, and a | in a macro call means everything after it before the matching } is one argument (it isn't special if | is inside of another {} or after the effective |) (and the | isn't part of it).
00:21:59 <zzo38> Macro definitions and arguments are not expanded. However, the name of the macro, if not a string, is expanded one level; the first token of that result is then expanded one level and so on until the first token of the result is a string; the rest is the definition/arguments.
00:22:24 <zzo38> Now it is explained. Do you know if it is Turing-complete? There are other built-in macros too such as {cat} if they are needed to make them Turing-complete
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00:58:10 <zzo38> You could have {define {X} "X" "X"} to increment a counter and then {define {X}} to decrement, maybe, but then what? As in Amnesiac From Minsk, zero is a critical state, it look like.
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02:57:01 <zzo38> Scryfall has many queries, but the virtual table mechanism of SQLite is currently not sophisticated enough to be usable to translate many of the kinds of SQL queries into Scryfall syntax for efficient search. (The queries would still work, but a lot of things would be done on client side, even though the server side supports them too. With my proposals for the virtual table mechanism, it could convert more SQL queries into Scryfall syntax.)
03:11:20 <zzo38> A database of Magic: the Gathering cards if having a "last updated" field which is searchable, would also be helpful in case you want to periodically download them (by using a INSERT statement in SQLite, inserting into a local table and SELECTing from a virtual table), to only download the new cards and changed Oracle texts, using the WHERE clause; any unchanged Oracle texts then won't be downloaded.
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04:25:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NotAgoodOne * New user account
04:29:20 <zzo38> With having the different virtual table extensions for accessing different data, e.g. movies, weather, etc, then you can load multiple virtual tables and use a query with two or more of them, e.g. if you want a list of all of the movies that are playing in cities where it is not raining.
04:35:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55110&oldid=55037 * NotAgoodOne * (+173) /* Introductions */
04:37:43 <esowiki> [[User:NotAgoodOne]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55111 * NotAgoodOne * (+55) Created page with "im a kid who likes esolangs trying to find my first one"
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05:39:58 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55112&oldid=54809 * YamTokWae * (+13)
05:47:12 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55113&oldid=55112 * YamTokWae * (+1175)
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05:57:21 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55114&oldid=55113 * YamTokWae * (+1002)
06:06:07 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55115&oldid=55114 * YamTokWae * (+792)
06:12:07 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55116&oldid=55115 * YamTokWae * (-16) /* Overview */
06:17:48 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55117&oldid=54807 * YamTokWae * (+97)
06:19:17 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55118&oldid=55117 * YamTokWae * (+96) /* List of pages I should refer. */
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06:28:49 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55119&oldid=55116 * YamTokWae * (-116)
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08:11:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GibsonGeorge * New user account
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08:15:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55120&oldid=55110 * GibsonGeorge * (+173)
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09:18:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55121&oldid=55108 * Galaxtone * (+220)
09:21:59 <int-e> surpise! procrastination leads to stress... when will I learn...
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10:54:32 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55122&oldid=55105 * Galaxtone * (+31) Style test
10:55:06 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55123&oldid=55122 * Galaxtone * (+17) Style test #2
10:57:53 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55124&oldid=55123 * Galaxtone * (+206) Style test #3
10:58:19 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55125&oldid=55124 * Galaxtone * (+2) Style test #4
10:58:54 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55126&oldid=55125 * Galaxtone * (-16) Style test #5
10:59:18 <int-e> . o O ( preview anyone? )
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11:08:52 <arseniiv> it reminds me I had previewed YEOOIIOOIOA page like fifty times when it was being written :)
11:11:37 <int-e> That sounds quite normal to me.
11:12:02 <int-e> (dozens of times for a large edit, certainly, so 50 doesn't seem overly excessive)
11:12:50 <arseniiv> to me too, I’m just rare to wikis the last time
11:41:54 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55127&oldid=55126 * Galaxtone * (+2973) Added pseudo code to each statement.
11:43:48 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55128&oldid=55127 * Galaxtone * (-1322)
11:44:13 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55129&oldid=55128 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* List of statements */
11:45:30 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55130&oldid=55129 * Galaxtone * (-52) /* List of statements */
11:46:47 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55131&oldid=55130 * Galaxtone * (+17) /* List of types */
12:00:16 <arseniiv> oh so rarely do languages have a full lattice of types, yet nowadays each second has a top, and each tenth has a bottom to boot
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13:09:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55132&oldid=55068 * Galaxtone * (+97)
13:10:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55133&oldid=55132 * Galaxtone * (+22)
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13:33:45 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55134&oldid=55131 * Galaxtone * (+695)
13:34:19 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55135&oldid=55134 * Galaxtone * (-87) Removed 32bit integer ascii exception due to it already existed above the list
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13:48:28 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55136&oldid=55135 * Galaxtone * (+98) /* List of types */
13:48:58 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55137&oldid=55136 * Galaxtone * (+0) To-do list, "one-length" instead of "One-length"
13:49:30 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55138&oldid=55137 * Galaxtone * (+1) Missed a new line
13:50:03 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55139&oldid=55138 * Galaxtone * (+1) "value declarations" instead of "type declarations"
13:50:49 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55140&oldid=55139 * Galaxtone * (+12) Changed table section "Usage" to "Value Declaration"
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13:56:00 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55141&oldid=55140 * Galaxtone * (-4) Changed value declaration of type Nothing.
13:57:48 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55142&oldid=55141 * Galaxtone * (+1) /* List of types */
13:58:23 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55143&oldid=55142 * Galaxtone * (+2) /* List of types */
13:58:49 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55144&oldid=55143 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* List of types */
13:59:48 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55145&oldid=55144 * Galaxtone * (-65) /* List of types */
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14:22:09 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55146&oldid=55145 * Galaxtone * (+658) Added a bit of documentation for printer (Unformatted) and a to-do list
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15:26:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55147&oldid=55121 * Galaxtone * (+195) Read message for details
15:26:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55148&oldid=55147 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* Chat */
15:27:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55149&oldid=55148 * Galaxtone * (+41)
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15:28:22 <Galaxtone> Does it show you ever major edit I make
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15:32:57 <Galaxtone> :thonk: Probably should make more minor edits
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15:53:12 <esowiki> [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55150&oldid=54354 * Qwertyu63 * (-6)
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15:56:45 <zzo38> This is the IRC of esoteric programming; to see wiki it explains them.
15:57:10 <zzo38> (But many things are discussed on here, anyways)
15:59:25 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55151&oldid=52345 * Qwertyu63 * (+0) /* Combiners ((N+M)) */
16:04:31 <oerjan> Galaxtone: actually it shows the minor ones too. try the preview button.
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17:06:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55152&oldid=52542 * Galaxtone * (+189) /* Can I provide a "Hello, world!" example? */ new section
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18:11:58 <zzo38> I wrote this document: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/IMIDI Please make the comment/question/complaint of it.
18:18:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:Schmuui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55153&oldid=55149 * Ais523 * (+562) /* An esoteric (ess-oh-terr-ick) programming language, or esolang, is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use. */ new section
18:20:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Bot]]": Copyright violation: identical text (and code adjusted on a predictable pattern to account for the difference between wikis) to the Wikipedia equivalent
18:28:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Kaa-kun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55154&oldid=55033 * Ais523 * (+239) you can't copy to here from Wikipedia
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18:55:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55155&oldid=55120 * Digital Hunter * (+201)
18:55:52 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55156 * Digital Hunter * (+14) Made a page
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20:29:01 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55157 * Digital Hunter * (+3569) Made a page
20:31:22 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55158&oldid=55157 * Digital Hunter * (+4) added a link
20:32:26 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55159&oldid=55041 * Digital Hunter * (+13) /* S */
20:33:39 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55160&oldid=55158 * Digital Hunter * (+19) changed wording
20:35:58 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55161&oldid=55156 * Digital Hunter * (+45) added a sentence
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21:39:09 <zzo38> DOSBOX seems to believe that /dev/cdrom is a directory, even though it isn't a directory. Do you know why that is?
21:40:37 <imode> I assume because DOSBOX will try to mount it.
21:40:47 <imode> or just sees all devices as directories that can't be browsed to.
21:42:39 <zzo38> I got the CD to work now, but the box says to type TECHCD2 to start the program, and the CD does not have a file by that name.
21:50:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bzwadc * New user account
21:54:55 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55162&oldid=55146 * Galaxtone * (+0)
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22:21:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55163&oldid=55152 * Galaxtone * (+57) Extra suggestion on top for you (Hi #esoteric)
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22:46:21 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55164&oldid=55160 * Digital Hunter * (+14)
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00:29:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55165 * Galaxtone * (+176) Created page with "=== Uhm, "program", It looks like a "programming language" to me === The name says it all. ~~~~"
00:30:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55166&oldid=55165 * Galaxtone * (-2) /* Uhm, "program", It looks like a "programming language" to me */
00:36:01 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55167 * Galaxtone * (+28) Redirected page to [[Emoji-gramming]]
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00:40:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55168&oldid=55163 * Galaxtone * (+1)
00:43:22 <fizzie> I don't understand what it is with Finland and Eurovision. No matter what we send (with one exception), it never goes well at all.
00:43:27 <fizzie> Not that UK fares much better.
00:44:57 <izabera> <something about israel not even being in europe>
00:49:38 <oerjan> oh is it that day again
00:50:14 <fizzie> Yes, don't worry, it's done already.
01:21:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55169&oldid=55168 * Oerjan * (+91) Of course
01:24:25 <Galaxtone> I'm actually working on an interpreter for it aswell
01:24:29 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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01:24:39 <Galaxtone> which I already assumed that I could edit to add a link to it
01:24:40 <oerjan> i myself make way more programs in other people's esolangs than i've made esolangs
01:25:13 <shachaf> Do my C++ programs count as programs in other people's esolangs?
01:25:31 <shachaf> Or does the C++ committee not count as people?
01:25:51 <pikhq> The C++ committee counted.
01:25:53 <shachaf> It's made up of people, at least.
01:25:56 <pikhq> Past tense, of course.
01:26:04 <oerjan> well i'm not sure they've been given a proper turing test
01:26:05 <shachaf> What about template programs?
01:26:20 <oerjan> or voight-kampff [sp?]
01:26:28 <pikhq> Template programs are one of the stronger arguments for C++ being an esolang.
01:27:13 <shachaf> Good afternookhq. How's jams?
01:28:17 <oerjan> we _do_ have at least one C++ template program on the wiki, i recall
01:29:09 <Galaxtone> Is brainfuck still turning complete if you make the tape bounded to 2 items but you have two types Null and List and you can go in and out?
01:30:42 <oerjan> is that different from two cells with unbounded non-negative integers?
01:31:34 <oerjan> `learn Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all esolangers misspelling his name.
01:31:36 <HackEso> Learned 'turning': Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all esolangers misspelling his name.
01:31:46 <oerjan> `learn Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all the esolangers misspelling his name.
01:31:49 <HackEso> Relearned 'turning': Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all the esolangers misspelling his name.
01:32:22 <Galaxtone> | (pipe) switches the header between 1st and 2nd cell, + sets cell to empty list of 2, - sets cell to null, ^ goes into list, V goes out of list, and . and , somehow functioned in this system.
01:32:29 <shachaf> i,i because there exist esolangers misspelling his name
01:32:50 <oerjan> Galaxtone: that typo is how our phrase "Turning tarpit" came about
01:33:02 <HackEso> turning tarpit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:33:08 <HackEso> prography:Prography is the art of turning computational algorithms into something totally incomprehensible to anyone whose brain isn't made of silicon and arsenic. \ turning:Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all the esolangers misspelling his name.
01:34:42 <oerjan> what's an "empty list of 2"?
01:36:06 <Galaxtone> [[[[[[[[[], []], null], null], []], null], []], []], null]
01:36:13 <Galaxtone> the 1st value of each list indexes further
01:36:18 <Galaxtone> while the second represents a value
01:36:59 <oerjan> your operations are a bit unclear to me.
01:38:48 <oerjan> Galaxtone: have you looked at V (Fmota) on the wiki?
01:39:35 <oerjan> it's not quite the same but it has a tree you can go up and down in
01:40:58 <shachaf> oerjan: C++14 template programming is way better
01:41:08 <shachaf> you can properly confuse yourself finally
01:41:24 <oerjan> Galaxtone: don't you essentially have an infinite tape just by going in and out like that?
01:42:09 <oerjan> dependent what the other commands do when you're inside a list
01:42:15 <pikhq> shachaf: Studies go acceptably.
01:42:27 <pikhq> At some point, I will even have a degree.
01:42:47 <oerjan> . o O ( celsius or fahrenheit )
01:43:29 <pikhq> I will be 1 degrees Math
01:44:58 <shachaf> In the UK they just say "n maths" instead of "n degrees math"
01:45:42 <pikhq> Of course, in the US in formal writing they will say "One degree Mathematic", so hey
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02:13:35 <zzo38> Did you read the document I wrote about IMIDI?
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05:14:53 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55170&oldid=55162 * Schmuui * (+28) /* List of statements */
05:17:10 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55171&oldid=55170 * Galaxtone * (-16) /* List of statements */
05:18:14 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55172&oldid=55171 * Schmuui * (+37)
05:22:33 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55173&oldid=55172 * Schmuui * (-89)
05:27:25 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55174&oldid=55173 * Schmuui * (+167) /* List of built-in modules */
05:28:37 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55175&oldid=55174 * Schmuui * (+0) /* List of built-in modules */
05:30:54 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55176&oldid=55175 * Schmuui * (+348) /* Examples */
05:34:14 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55177&oldid=55176 * Schmuui * (+39) /* Quine? */
05:34:55 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55178&oldid=55177 * Schmuui * (-167) /* List of built-in modules */
05:38:32 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55179&oldid=55178 * Schmuui * (+61) /* List of built-in modules */
05:40:06 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55180&oldid=55179 * Schmuui * (+3) /* List of built-in modules */
05:40:40 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55181&oldid=55180 * Schmuui * (+4) /* List of built-in modules */
05:43:42 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55182&oldid=55107 * Schmuui * (+50) /* Themed */
05:44:51 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55183&oldid=55182 * Schmuui * (-50) /* Themed */
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05:52:20 <esowiki> [[Sch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55184 * Schmuui * (+21) Redirected page to [[Schmuui]]
05:52:45 <esowiki> [[Sch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55185&oldid=55184 * Schmuui * (-1) Redirected page to [[Schmuu]]
05:53:43 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55186&oldid=55181 * Galaxtone * (-26) Meh.
05:53:51 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55187&oldid=55186 * Schmuui * (-439) /* Quine? */
05:55:14 <esowiki> [[Schmuu!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55188 * Schmuui * (+68) Redirected page to [[Schmuu]]
05:59:20 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55189&oldid=55187 * Galaxtone * (+497) Added quine example
06:00:17 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55190&oldid=55189 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* Quine */
06:02:09 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55191&oldid=55190 * Galaxtone * (+8) Change Reader module to Printer module
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11:23:57 <HackEso> The magic was in you all along.
11:24:30 <int-e> . o O ( There are but two kinds of magic: The kind that never fails, and the bad kind. )
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13:15:23 <esowiki> [[Wishmaster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55192 * Jabutosama * (+946) Created page with "Wishmaster is a joke language created by [[user:Jabutosama]]. It is a manifestation of philosophical idea that no one can prove or disprove relation of arbitrary actions in co..."
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17:26:08 <Galaxtone> Who has permission to modify https://esolangs.org/wiki/Emoji-gramming
17:30:12 <esowiki> [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55193&oldid=52543 * Galaxtone * (+31)
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18:09:02 <esowiki> [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55194&oldid=55193 * Galaxtone * (+736) Hello world example
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18:26:50 <Galaxtone> that imode thing was like my conncetion so itped something to see if i was connected
18:32:37 <HackEso> [U+20000 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-20000]
18:32:59 <HackEso> [U+4E00 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4E00]
18:33:42 <HackEso> [U+AC00 HANGUL SYLLABLE GA] [U+3400 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3400] [U+2A700 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-2A700] [U+A000 YI SYLLABLE IT] [U+13000 EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH A001]
18:34:31 <HackEso> [U+1342E EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH AA032]
18:34:58 <int-e> wow, so many hieroglyphs
18:35:22 <HackEso> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A]
18:36:06 <int-e> Galaxtone: I was looking for the longest consecutive ranges of alphanumeric characters in unicode...
18:37:09 <int-e> And I didn't expect hieroglyphs to come up at all, tbh
18:39:42 <int-e> > let xs = group $ zipWith (-) [fromEnum x | x <- [minBound..maxBound], generalCategory x `elem` [UppercaseLetter,LowercaseLetter,TitlecaseLetter,ModifierLetter,OtherLetter,DecimalNumber,OtherNumber]] [0..] in text $ unwords $ map (\(x,y) -> [chr y, '-', chr (y+x-1)]) $ reverse $ sort $ zip (map length xs) (zipWith (+) (map head xs) (scanl (+) 0 (map length xs)))
18:39:45 <lambdabot> 𠀀-𪛖 一-鿌 가-힣 㐀-䶵 𪜀-𫜴 ꀀ-ꒌ 𓀀-𓐮 𒀀-𒎘 ᐁ-ᙬ 𖠀-𖨸 丽-𪘀 ø-ˁ 豈-舘 ﯓ-ﴽ 𝕒-𝚥 ჼ-ቈ 𐘀-𐜶 Ḁ-ἕ ꔀ-ꘌ ...
18:44:15 <int-e> Galaxtone: the > is part of it (or you can use @run instead of >)
18:45:14 <int-e> The language is Haskell; for extended experiments, please use private messages (direct chat, whatever)
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18:58:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55195&oldid=55169 * Galaxtone * (+79) /* What does "" mean? */ new section
18:58:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55196&oldid=55195 * Galaxtone * (+13) /* What does "" mean? */
19:01:53 <HackEso> [U+00E4 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS]
19:03:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55197&oldid=55196 * Galaxtone * (+34) /* What does "" mean? */
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19:27:56 <Galaxtone> also pesky space so it doesnt trigger commands
19:28:52 <int-e> Galaxtone: it does it no matter what because spammers tend to mark their edits as minor... (basically making the distinction between minor edits and proper ones useless)
19:29:17 <int-e> Galaxtone: so the only advice I'd have is to use the preview feature for testing.
19:29:47 <Galaxtone> unlike that thing of style test #1 -> #5
19:30:33 <int-e> But heh it's still nicer to see many small edits than actual spam so don't worry about it too much.
19:31:21 <Galaxtone> cant help not noticing typos before its too late. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
19:33:18 <int-e> yeah I think that happens to everybody
19:41:39 <impomatic> Are there any classic Mac emulator experts here who could expand a .sit file onto a .dsk image for me please?
19:42:04 <impomatic> I've been going round and round in circles for ages and can't figure it.
19:46:56 <zzo38> Did you try 7-Zip? I don't know if it supports those formats, but it does support many formats
19:48:18 <impomatic> Not yet. Trying to get it into a Mac emulator though.
19:48:41 <impomatic> I've just discovered I'm using the wrong version of StuffIt, which might solve the problem :-)
19:48:54 <arseniiv> yeah I think that happens to everybody> totally agree
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20:28:37 <int-e> hah: -- NOTE this function gives impossibly good results - whats wrong?
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23:38:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55198&oldid=55197 * Galaxtone * (+45)
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23:45:09 <zzo38> int-e: What function gives impossibly good results?
23:49:01 <int-e> some code a student wrote for their bachelor project
23:52:00 <int-e> I'm not sure whether it's saying that the code is performing surprisingly well, or that it gives wrong results :P
23:55:43 <int-e> (if you wonder how wrong answers can be "good", well, this is a program tackling an undecidable problem; as such the main performance metric is the number of input problems with a definitive answer... of course that is misleading if those answers turn out to be wrong.)
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00:29:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55199&oldid=55198 * Galaxtone * (+128) /* What does "" mean? */
00:31:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55200&oldid=55199 * Galaxtone * (+47) /* What does "" mean? */
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00:49:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55201&oldid=55200 * Oerjan * (+46) /* What does "" mean? */ Unsigned
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02:39:49 <oerjan> Galaxtone: it's entirely up to the irc client whether unicode emoji are displayed correctly.
02:40:06 <oerjan> in mine i see a cropped character
02:40:36 <HackEso> [U+1F4BB - No such unicode character name in database]
02:41:03 <HackEso> U+1F4BB - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 bb UTF-16BE: d83ddcbb Decimal: 💻 \ 💻 (💻) \ Uppercase: U+1F4BB \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
02:42:22 <oerjan> i updated it less than a month ago...
02:42:46 <HackEso> 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
02:46:22 <oerjan> maybe this is another thing that broke because of the move from HackEgo to HackEso
02:46:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/multicode
02:48:20 <oerjan> `` ls -d /usr/shar/uni*
02:48:21 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/usr/shar/uni*': No such file or directory
02:48:29 <oerjan> `` ls -d /usr/share/uni*
02:48:30 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/usr/share/uni*': No such file or directory
02:49:23 <oerjan> `` ls -d /usr/share/perl/*/unicore
02:49:24 <HackEso> /usr/share/perl/5.24.1/unicore \ /usr/share/perl/5.24/unicore
02:49:42 <oerjan> `` ls -l -d /usr/share/perl/*/unicore
02:49:43 <HackEso> drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 4096 Apr 7 23:23 /usr/share/perl/5.24.1/unicore \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 4096 Apr 7 23:23 /usr/share/perl/5.24/unicore
02:53:22 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/tmp/.unicode': No such file or directory
02:54:06 <oerjan> ok as far as i can tell the share/* one is the first in the list that exists, so should be used.
02:57:54 <HackEso> \ Unihan_*.txt files not found. In order to view Unihan properties, \ please place the file into /usr/share/unidata/, \ /usr/share/unicode/, ~/.unicode/ \ or current working directory (optionally you can gzip or bzip2 them). \ You can get the files by unpacking ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/Unihan.zip \ Warning, listing UniHan Properties is rather slow. \ \ U+1F4BB - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 bb UTF-16BE:
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02:58:50 <oerjan> perhaps that file somehow doesn't include emoji.
02:59:23 <oerjan> and multicode is way older than the data file
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03:14:21 <esowiki> [[User:King Ethan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55202 * King Ethan * (+758) Created page with "'''User:King Ethan''' is a [[BF]]-derived language. ==Commands== {|class="wikitable" |+ !Command!!Description |- |<code>[</code>||Move pointer left |- |<code>]</code>||Move po..."
03:28:52 <esowiki> [[User:King Ethan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55203&oldid=55202 * King Ethan * (+733)
03:29:18 <esowiki> [[User:King Ethan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55204&oldid=55203 * King Ethan * (+9) /* Commands */
03:30:14 <esowiki> [[King Ethan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55205 * King Ethan * (+77) Created page with ":''The proper title of this article is User:King Ethan.'' {{User:King Ethan}}"
03:54:14 <Galaxtone> User:King_Ethan is a BF deritative
03:54:27 <Galaxtone> he is a programming language, *thonk* That is very odd.
03:54:43 <Galaxtone> oh its not on his actual user page
03:55:20 <Galaxtone> it just works without the User: in the url
03:56:11 <Galaxtone> also why is it N/A for the brainfuck translation
03:56:25 <oerjan> oh he used transclusion
03:57:14 <Galaxtone> how can a cell be marked N/A or is he refering to the table
03:58:07 <Galaxtone> ok im going to stop questioning this
03:58:47 <oerjan> Galaxtone: it means there's not a direct translation of the command to brainfuck
04:00:26 <oerjan> because he's split up bf's . and , commands into subparts
04:05:25 <oerjan> except it will never halt
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04:07:50 <Galaxtone> +{],>&(do your checking here for 0 or 10)[}
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04:25:15 <Galaxtone> hmm... I wonder what his static value is
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05:03:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Galaxtone * uploaded "[[File:Console.png]]"
05:04:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55207&oldid=55201 * Galaxtone * (+105) /* Why is your interpreter with input? */ new section
05:05:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55208&oldid=55207 * Galaxtone * (+85) /* Why is your interpreter with input? */
05:05:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55209&oldid=55208 * Galaxtone * (+64) /* What does "" mean? */
05:23:39 <zzo38> I made up this way to make the total of numbers in a table in SQLite without using any aggregate functions: create table a(x int,z integer primary key); with b(c,d,e) as (select z,'/'||z,x from a union all select z,d||'/'||z,x+e from a,b where instr(d,'/'||z)=0) select e from b order by length(d) desc limit 1; But maybe there is a better way.
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05:25:22 <zzo38> Actually it is a bit problem, because it should be '/'||z||'/' instead probably.
05:25:48 <zzo38> What I wrote above won't work (even though it worked when I tested it just now) unless it is fixed like I said.
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06:15:09 <zzo38> Once it happened in GURPS game we were about to go across the river to get a boat so that the third guy can use it to cross (in order to avoid an ambush), but he found a magic wand, and despite my character warned against it, he used it and managed to turn himself invisible, so instead I told him, he should just walk across the bridge; they can't ambush him then.
06:15:17 <zzo38> (Actually, we might not have spotted the ambush if it wasn't a toll bridge, nor would he have found the magic wand.)
06:46:43 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55210 * Galaxtone * (+1628) Creation
06:46:56 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55211&oldid=55210 * Galaxtone * (-33) /* The mentally insane esolang */
06:52:52 <Galaxtone> don't mark it as unsigned I'm doing that in the next edit
06:57:12 <Galaxtone> well I don't want it to be useless
06:57:40 <Galaxtone> but really I just want to provide "Examples" that actually work in it
07:04:30 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55212&oldid=55211 * Galaxtone * (-19) Changed the instructions
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07:39:57 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55213&oldid=55212 * Galaxtone * (+408) Added RNG to give same results each time program is ran.
07:40:28 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55214&oldid=55213 * Galaxtone * (+6)
07:48:12 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55215&oldid=55214 * Galaxtone * (+106) :P
07:48:33 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55216&oldid=55215 * Galaxtone * (+39) /* Instructions */
07:54:11 <zzo38> I am not so sure if the flow controls are enough?
08:00:07 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55217&oldid=55216 * Galaxtone * (+43) /* Instructions */
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08:12:12 <arseniiv> is there a language where cat program is ^^ or maybe :3
08:13:09 <arseniiv> I know this is a silly joke and “cat” is probably related to concatenation or something, but it got the best of me
08:17:39 <arseniiv> Galaxtone: is Ą instruction also using that same random()? Then it’s not so random…
08:17:55 <arseniiv> one truly probabilistic language more is always better!
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08:30:42 <Galaxtone> since RGN randomness is custom and static
08:30:50 <Galaxtone> I can just repeat random until I get my value :P
08:35:06 <arseniiv> also, do you have any plans on compiling BF to this language? It should be hilarious!
08:35:10 <Galaxtone> your going to HELL- oustopolis where its a beautifal place
08:36:09 <Galaxtone> anything that can write in brainfuck is turing complete
08:36:29 <Galaxtone> but that anything writtin in brainfuck is not always turing complete?
08:37:11 <arseniiv> the last is true, yep, you could write something small in something big
08:38:03 <arseniiv> the first is also true, if you mean “you can write brainfuck in that”
08:38:32 <fddsafsd> why are ppl interested in brainfuck at all
08:39:23 <fddsafsd> damn it should have been >>^.^<<
08:39:44 <Galaxtone> if you can make an interpreter or have translation
08:39:57 <fddsafsd> >>>^.^<<< DAMN THAT CAT HAS LONG ASS WHISKERS
08:40:11 <Galaxtone> also what happens with insame esolang is that its mod 37
08:40:18 <Galaxtone> so there are like 7 values per character
08:40:38 <Galaxtone> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>^.^<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
08:40:54 <arseniiv> Galaxtone: the gist of it is, for a sufficiently expressive thing, it could give rise to things as, or less expressive as it, but not more
08:41:17 <Galaxtone> so a turing machine could encode itself
08:41:31 <Galaxtone> but it can do less from which that less cannot be more
08:41:46 <Galaxtone> so its like you can go down but not up
08:41:50 <arseniiv> see my point now> no :D what’s with that cat?
08:41:52 <Cale> https://sites.google.com/site/deedlitsplace/ultracombo
08:41:59 <fddsafsd> no there are self encoding algorithms
08:42:35 <arseniiv> so its like you can go down but not up> yeah
08:43:23 <fddsafsd> i forgot what they were called
08:44:05 <Galaxtone> does it count as going down if you remove the -
08:44:16 <Galaxtone> you can just use + * (255 - value)
08:44:38 <Galaxtone> is it possible to become more than yourself with self modifying code?
08:45:03 <fddsafsd> whats more than self if you have network connection
08:45:15 <fddsafsd> it even involves human interaction
08:46:13 <arseniiv> does it count as going down if you remove the - > I fear it requires a thorough analysis. So far your language was, I’d say, sufficiently complex to it not be Turing-complete being highly unprobable. But taking expressiveness from it would make a difference after a while
08:47:39 <arseniiv> is it possible to become more than yourself with self modifying code?> shouldn’t at least if we are no more expressive than some Turing-complete thing. Maybe when we get tooo expressive, it ceases to hold
08:48:08 <arseniiv> however I’m almost sure it doesn’t cease
08:48:31 <arseniiv> there should be some analogue to halting problem
08:49:32 <arseniiv> it doesn’t need to exist for a things of a small expressivity only, e. g. a language with bounded loops only
08:50:17 <arseniiv> well I should go have some sleep
08:50:46 <arseniiv> 20 hours is not healthy at all
08:52:52 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55218&oldid=55217 * Galaxtone * (+18)
08:57:39 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55219&oldid=55218 * Galaxtone * (+757) Added challenges
08:57:50 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55220&oldid=55219 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* = Prove Turing-Completness */
09:00:18 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55221&oldid=55220 * Galaxtone * (+4) /* Instructions */
09:00:49 <esowiki> [[User:Galaxtone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55222&oldid=55074 * Galaxtone * (+14) Added Insane Esolang to Originally created by me list
09:01:27 <esowiki> [[User:Galaxtone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55223&oldid=55222 * Galaxtone * (+4) Fixed small typo
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09:05:10 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55224&oldid=55221 * Galaxtone * (+43) Added that Deleted User 325d667f submitted the solution
09:06:06 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55225&oldid=55224 * Galaxtone * (+10) Included username
09:08:19 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55226&oldid=55225 * Galaxtone * (-14) Sorry, didn't know he actually had a new account on esolangs. :P
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09:10:34 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55227&oldid=55226 * Galaxtone * (+588) Sssssh, it's a secret.
09:13:59 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55228&oldid=55227 * Galaxtone * (+52) Fixed secret
09:14:38 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55229&oldid=55228 * Galaxtone * (+8)
09:17:53 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55230&oldid=55191 * Galaxtone * (-413) /* Examples */
09:24:49 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55231&oldid=55229 * Galaxtone * (+97) /* Instructions */
09:26:11 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55232&oldid=55231 * Galaxtone * (+57) /* Instructions */
09:27:05 <Galaxtone> I think it's possibly turing complete
09:36:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:LyricLy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55233 * Galaxtone * (+0) Created blank page
09:39:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Galaxtone * uploaded "[[File:Galaxtone Light Appearance .png]]"
09:39:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:LyricLy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55235&oldid=55233 * Galaxtone * (+202) /* Oh come on... */ new section
09:39:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:LyricLy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55236&oldid=55235 * Galaxtone * (+8)
09:41:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:LyricLy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55237&oldid=55236 * Galaxtone * (-210) Blanked the page
09:43:44 <HackEso> [U+1F64F - No such unicode character name in database]
09:50:01 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55238&oldid=55232 * Galaxtone * (+60) Pronounciation
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15:49:53 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55239&oldid=55238 * Plokmijnuhby * (+353)
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17:53:51 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> I made up this way to make the total of numbers in a table in SQLite without using any aggregate functions:" => um, why is that constraint useful?
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19:36:49 <HackEso> 1230) <fungot> boily: the proc is invoked. before or after the evaluator transfers control to a certain class of anime characters with long hair and loud music \ 241) <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
19:36:51 <fungot> int-e: ii) a judicial panel can act, that officer's salary to that effect. two months after being made. immutable and mutable rules conflict with the unanimous consent of members that are not transferrable, and
19:37:48 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:37:54 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
19:38:20 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
19:38:23 <fungot> int-e: on the third square not far from a place unknown, at the dizzying height of the great
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21:36:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55240&oldid=55164 * Digital Hunter * (+13)
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22:24:39 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
22:24:58 <fungot> arseniiv: how is the spelling of my name." whether or not it is " pov" problems if it spends significantly more time discussing one view than another view of equivalent significance, even if of course there are many uses for the word " face" in the first place, if they want continue to spend time in the quiet duel. i believe a more correct name would be maybe n-gage ( software). i think it is useful to give a balanced/ fair/ ne
22:25:45 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
22:25:53 <fungot> arseniiv: " well, yeah... perilous crevasses, too. i had to nudge things a little worse for themselves! ye fnord!"
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22:26:18 <arseniiv> fungot: say something interesting
22:26:18 <fungot> arseniiv: " oh, yes?" he said.
22:26:33 <fungot> arseniiv: ' susan, can you remember everything that's ever happened to me before. all the sherry had made him a little space...
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22:44:11 <HackEso> aglist 588,589,590: b_jonas shachaf
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22:54:25 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
22:54:29 <fungot> fizzie: and nobody knows ah in the atmosphere i work anybody could come in handy watching the news and a lot of things
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00:44:22 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55241&oldid=55239 * Oerjan * (-6) Remove insane spacing
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01:34:14 <HackEso> [U+1F64F - No such unicode character name in database]
01:34:32 <HackEso> 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:34:42 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/undo: 2: /hackenv/bin/undo: patch: not found
01:35:55 <oerjan> undo doesn't work without patch
01:36:06 <HackEso> 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:36:28 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 11538 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt
01:36:43 <HackEso> [U+1F64F - No such unicode character name in database]
01:37:00 <HackEso> 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:37:35 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lastfile: not found
01:37:58 <HackEso> 11559:2018-05-15 <oerjän> revert \ 11558:2018-05-15 <oerjän> revert \ 11557:2018-05-13 <oerjän> learn Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all the esolangers misspelling his name. \ 11556:2018-05-13 <oerjän> learn Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all esolangers misspelling his name.
01:38:16 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt
01:38:29 <HackEso> [U+1F64F PERSON WITH FOLDED HANDS]
01:39:16 <oerjan> so my update actually broke `multicode.
01:39:40 <oerjan> but does that mean they changed the format of the file so it's no longer understood?
01:39:55 <HackEso> 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:40:29 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
01:41:36 <oerjan> i'm not sure trying to look at that diff is wise.
01:45:53 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt
01:45:54 <HackEso> 0000;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;NULL;;;; \ 0001;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;START OF HEADING;;;; \ 0002;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;START OF TEXT;;;; \ 0003;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;END OF TEXT;;;; \ 0004;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;END OF TRANSMISSION;;;; \ 0005;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;ENQUIRY;;;; \ 0006;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;ACKNOWLEDGE;;;; \ 0007;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;BELL;;;; \ 0008;<control>;Cc;0;BN;;;;;N;BACKSPACE;;;; \ 0009;<control>;Cc;0;S;;;;;N;CHARACTER TABU
01:46:18 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 11538 share/UnicodeData.txt
01:46:33 <oerjan> no wonder it didn't work :P
01:46:43 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 11538 share/UnicodeData.txt | wc
01:47:24 <oerjan> `fetch tmp/oerjan http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric
01:47:25 <HackEso> 2018-05-15 02:47:25 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ [2598/2598] -> "tmp/oerjan" [1]
01:47:30 <HackEso> <HTML> \ \ <HEAD><TITLE>Esoteric programming languages</TITLE></HEAD> \ <BODY> \ <H1>Esoteric programming languages</H1> \ \ I have lately taken an interest in ``esoteric'' programming languages, \ especially Unlambda. Unlambda is a language based on the combinator \ calculus, which means it is a functional language without variables or \ lambda expressions!<P> \ \ For the official Unlambda distribution, including several \ (other) implementations a
01:47:59 <HackEso> 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:48:14 <oerjan> `hurl share/UnicodeData.txt
01:48:15 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/share/UnicodeData.txt
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01:50:33 <oerjan> `fetch share/UnicodeData.txt http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
01:50:36 <HackEso> 2018-05-15 02:50:35 URL:http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt [1735010/1735010] -> "share/UnicodeData.txt" [1]
01:50:55 <HackEso> [U+1F64F PERSON WITH FOLDED HANDS]
01:51:07 <HackEso> 11561:2018-05-15 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:51:30 <oerjan> arseniiv: i just discovered it was my update to the unicode data file that broke it :P
01:52:03 <oerjan> it somehow downloaded an empty file. maybe HackEso doesn't support ftp any longer.
01:52:14 <oerjan> so i changed to http and now it worked.
01:53:24 <oerjan> hm let me test with tmp/
01:53:53 <oerjan> `fetch tmp/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
01:54:07 <oerjan> i think that may be timing out
01:54:31 <HackEso> 11561:2018-05-15 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11559:2018-05-15 <oerjän> revert \ 11558:2018-05-15 <oerjän> revert \ 11557:2018-05-13 <oerjän> learn Turning is what Turing is doing in his grave because of all the esolangers misspelling his name. \ 11556:2018-05-13 <oerjän> learn Turning is wha
01:54:39 <HackEso> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'ls --help' for more information.
01:54:44 <HackEso> total 16 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 1 02:27 paste \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 2 May 10 18:54 spline \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 740 May 10 18:54 spout \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 731 May 10 18:54 spout.raw \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 0 May 15 01:53 UnicodeData.txt
01:54:54 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 0 May 15 01:53 tmp/UnicodeData.txt
01:55:02 <oerjan> that looks rather empty
01:55:35 <oerjan> fizzie: i think possibly some recent `unidecode breakage happened because HackEso no longer supports ftp:// downloading.
01:56:34 <oerjan> fizzie: also `undo broke because there's no longer a patch command
01:59:41 <oerjan> at least now `unidecode should be working again
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02:53:19 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55242&oldid=55240 * Digital Hunter * (+70) added a program
03:06:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:Digital Hunter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55243 * Digital Hunter * (+47) Created page with "idk I guess you could just type stuff and yeah."
03:06:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Galaxtone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55244&oldid=55066 * Digital Hunter * (+195)
03:08:17 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55245&oldid=55161 * Digital Hunter * (+116)
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07:13:37 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55246&oldid=55241 * Galaxtone * (+5) Fixed issue with not being able to go to next cell.
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07:44:33 <shachaf> He'll see whatever you say here probably
07:47:08 <Galaxtone> he gave me a result but I don't understand it
07:47:40 <Galaxtone> gonna have to create a talk page for him
07:48:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55247 * Galaxtone * (+0) Created blank page
07:49:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55248&oldid=55247 * Galaxtone * (+228) /* The Insane Esolang */ new section
07:50:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55249&oldid=55248 * Galaxtone * (+88) And of course forgot to sign, Here it is.
07:54:50 <Galaxtone> yep he provided the reason why it's not turing-complete
07:54:59 <Galaxtone> which is is because of one missing word :P
07:58:37 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55250&oldid=55246 * Galaxtone * (+272) Changed to be a little more difficult and explained why plokmijnuhby's statement why it's not turing complete is false.
08:00:00 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55251&oldid=55250 * Galaxtone * (+1) A single period.
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08:42:58 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55252&oldid=55251 * Galaxtone * (+977) I think I explained it.
08:44:46 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55253&oldid=55252 * Galaxtone * (+37) Fixed turing-completeness being on the wrong side
09:26:20 <fizzie> @tell oerjan FTP wouldn't work, yes; the outbound firewall rules are pretty strict. Added 'patch'.
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09:56:28 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55254&oldid=55253 * LyricLy * (+112) Add brute force program
09:58:11 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55255&oldid=55254 * Galaxtone * (+41)
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13:49:58 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55256&oldid=55255 * Galaxtone * (+59) /* Instructions */
13:53:18 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55257&oldid=55256 * Galaxtone * (+49) Introduced RNG into jump instructions, on a side note: Interpreter is going well.
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14:14:05 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55258&oldid=55257 * Galaxtone * (+43) /* Instructions */
14:35:16 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55259&oldid=55258 * Galaxtone * (+207) Added some extra notes
14:46:48 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55260&oldid=55259 * Galaxtone * (+0) Fixed range of random number generator
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15:12:21 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55261&oldid=55260 * Galaxtone * (+109) /* Instructions */
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16:32:55 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55262&oldid=55261 * Galaxtone * (+1516) Simplified instructions a bit (Incomplete), added pseudo-code section, haven't started, help if you want.
16:39:57 <HackEso> smlist 461: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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20:36:42 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55263&oldid=55262 * Galaxtone * (-638) Removed secret message.
20:54:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55264&oldid=55249 * Plokmijnuhby * (+1074)
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21:17:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polynomial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55265&oldid=43448 * Enedil * (+4759) /* Hello World example is fake */ new section
21:25:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polynomial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55266&oldid=55265 * Enedil * (+34) /* Hello World example is fake */
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21:41:02 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55267&oldid=55263 * Galaxtone * (+201) Added my javascript version of lyricly's program.
21:43:34 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55268&oldid=55267 * Galaxtone * (+124) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
21:48:25 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55269&oldid=55268 * Galaxtone * (+127) Added note about how the truth machine should function to prevent further invalid submissions
21:52:01 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55270&oldid=55269 * Galaxtone * (+90) Woops. Eh, still bad.
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22:53:02 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55271&oldid=55270 * Galaxtone * (+124) /* Truth Machine */
22:54:09 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55272&oldid=55264 * Galaxtone * (+236) Response.
22:55:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55273&oldid=55272 * Galaxtone * (-1) Whoops didn't notice that he signed his message and I put my response after it.
22:55:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55274&oldid=55273 * Galaxtone * (+88) Better sign it as well.
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00:14:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polynomial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55275&oldid=55266 * Oerjan * (+43) The beatings will continue until the signing improves
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00:36:08 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 9m 47s ago: FTP wouldn't work, yes; the outbound firewall rules are pretty strict. Added 'patch'.
00:36:31 <oerjan> <Galaxtone> why'd you remove the spacing <-- it seemed unnecessary?
00:40:40 <oerjan> Galaxtone: btw signing is usually done *only* on talk pages (i think there's some exception somewhere...)
00:40:56 <oerjan> and main pages are not for discussion.
00:46:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55276 * Oerjan * (+1983) Move invalid submissions here
00:47:11 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55277&oldid=55271 * Oerjan * (-1841) Move section to talk
00:48:59 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55278&oldid=55277 * Oerjan * (+13) /* External resources */ Reformat to standard
00:55:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> He'll see whatever you say here probably <-- but does that apply in the reverse? :/
01:00:51 <oerjan> you're lucky i even understand that reference :P
01:01:15 <oerjan> other people here keep linking to japanese stuff and i keep going "huh?"
01:03:20 <lambdabot> ENVA 160050Z 10006KT CAVOK 11/10 Q1015 RMK WIND 670FT VRB01KT
01:04:12 <oerjan> temperatures falling again... and just before our national day.
01:49:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55279&oldid=55243 * Digital Hunter * (+168) /* Random Stuff Section */ new section
01:52:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55280&oldid=55242 * Digital Hunter * (+3)
01:54:42 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55281&oldid=55280 * Digital Hunter * (+10) /* Cat */
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03:33:08 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: buenvenido: not found
03:33:44 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'bin/buen*': No such file or directory
03:35:00 <HackEso> johan66: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
03:35:53 <johan66> That was awesome, thank you
03:37:05 <johan66> and sorry, im interesting in esoteric themes or that something
03:38:57 <arseniiv> oerjan: is there something like “привет” also? :D
03:39:39 <arseniiv> though, I’m perfectly glad to be here without any localized greetings
03:39:39 <oerjan> `` grep -r welcome.ru bin
03:40:20 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ $_ = join " ", @ARGV; if (s/^([^ ]*) +([^ ]*) +//) { print "$1: "; exec $2, $_; }
03:40:41 <oerjan> `@ arseniiv \? welcome.ru
03:40:42 <HackEso> arseniiv: Can't exec "\?": No such file or directory at /hackenv/bin/@ line 2.
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03:40:55 <oerjan> `@ arseniiv ? welcome.ru
03:40:57 <HackEso> arseniiv: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
03:41:53 <oerjan> someone made that recently. i'm not sure what verb to use since there's no actual привет in there
03:43:19 <arseniiv> hm, it can be simply добро-пожаловать (IIRC spaces in unix filenames are a pain, so a dash)
03:43:40 <arseniiv> alas simply “пожаловать” isn’t enough
03:44:42 <oerjan> ok. i won't be able to easily type it regardless.
03:44:46 <arseniiv> (it would mean “to come” or “to give” in a somewhat high and archaic register)
03:45:16 <oerjan> i noticed, i just looked it up on wiktionary
03:46:15 <oerjan> `` cd bin; cp welcome добро-пожаловать; sled добро-пожаловать//s,welcome,welcome.ru,
03:46:17 <HackEso> добро-пожаловать//#!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.ru"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
03:46:36 <oerjan> `` cd bin; cp welcome добро-пожаловать; sled добро-пожаловать//s,welcome,welcome.ru,g
03:46:39 <HackEso> добро-пожаловать//#!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.ru"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.ru"; }
03:46:55 <oerjan> `добро-пожаловать arseniiv
03:46:56 <HackEso> arseniiv: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
03:49:19 * oerjan notices those messages are still not using https
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04:14:33 <oerjan> is today's xkcd in need of some repair or is it just my browser
04:20:28 <arseniiv> OTOH my screenshot is https://s7.postimg.cc/dukoo6yez/Screenshot-1463.png
04:21:17 <arseniiv> could it possibly be intentional?
04:22:42 <oerjan> https://xkcd.com/349/ seems relevant.
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05:34:30 <arseniiv> I’m probably demented, I dance with a cassette player playing a thing I already have in mp3 and in a far better quality (including a proper—not so slow—tempo)
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06:51:35 <arseniiv> oerjan: my friend said me that the last xkcd displays well when page zoom is > 1. The result: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/repairs_2x.png
06:52:19 <arseniiv> now I’m almost sure it’s planned
06:55:47 <arseniiv> or maybe not. At least now I know some last xkcds have ×1 and ×2 image variants
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09:29:27 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55282&oldid=55278 * Galaxtone * (+414) Insturctions look good.
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09:49:21 <fizzie> Yes, looks like the "normal size" image has just been cropped instead of being resized. I was wondering why it looked broken in my feed reader but okay after opening the page. Though it was just Feedly acting up.
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10:39:13 <fungot> boily: ( ( uh)) that have done both but yeah that's why you know do my class work laughter mm
10:44:04 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55283&oldid=55282 * Galaxtone * (+67) /* Hello, World! */
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10:45:15 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55284&oldid=55283 * Galaxtone * (+13) I'm just full of mistakes
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10:47:54 <izabera> maybe try with less popoular usernames
10:48:30 <Galaxtone__> but I just got disconnected and it looks like they haven't been "kicked"
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10:50:07 <Galaxtone__> why does it say nickname already in use when theres no user connected with that nick
10:50:33 <Galaxtone__> wait no its there but why isn't showing in my user list...
10:52:13 <boily> there are no other Galaxtones, only the Galaxtones you are. embrace the fungot. fnord.
10:54:49 <Galaxtone__> there is a Galaxtone but it's from my computer which is in sleep mode
10:55:19 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55285&oldid=55284 * Galaxtone * (+69) /* Instructions */
10:56:04 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55286&oldid=55285 * Galaxtone * (+4) /* Instructions */
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11:01:01 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55287&oldid=55286 * Galaxtone * (+5) /* Instructions */
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11:10:52 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55288&oldid=55287 * Galaxtone * (+123) /* Instructions */
11:13:22 <fungot> arseniiv: know but now i
11:14:30 <fungot> arseniiv: see that's what's on my mind
11:15:43 <arseniiv> omg fungot has become self-aware! Forgive me!
11:15:43 <fungot> arseniiv: and i mean they're getting anything out of shakespeare if i had a baby a month before the trip they wouldn't have to
11:16:18 <arseniiv> and they even think of having a baby :o
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11:18:16 <arseniiv> two or more fungots could talk to each other indefinitely, it will trigger the Singularity and
11:18:16 <fungot> arseniiv: you've got a gun that's big enough to keep ahead of security i think is
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11:42:37 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55289&oldid=55288 * Galaxtone * (+57) /* Instructions */
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18:01:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55290&oldid=55276 * Plokmijnuhby * (+436)
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18:57:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TabAtkins * New user account
18:59:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55291&oldid=55155 * TabAtkins * (+186) introduce myself
18:59:16 <esowiki> [[Fractran++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55292&oldid=47241 * TabAtkins * (-13) Fix dead link
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19:28:59 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:29:10 <wob_jonas> oerjan: good idea. let me try to edit most or all of them to use https
19:29:34 <HackEso> wisdom/welcome wisdom/welcome.bork wisdom/welcome.de wisdom/welcome.eo wisdom/welcome.es wisdom/welcome.fi wisdom/welcome.fr wisdom/welcome.is wisdom/welcome.ja wisdom/welcome.nb wisdom/welcome.nl wisdom/welcome.ru wisdom/welcome.ru wisdom/welcome.sv wisdom/welcome.tr
19:29:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: why are you avoiding `` ?
19:30:29 <wob_jonas> int-e: I'm not really avoiding it, but ``` sets the locale to POSIX (or used to in HackEgo), which is usually the sanest default, so it's easier not to think about whether I really depend on that
19:30:58 <wob_jonas> ``` grep -L '<http://esolangs.org>' wisdom/welcome*
19:30:59 <HackEso> grep: wisdom/welcome.ru : Is a directory \ wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.de \ wisdom/welcome.eo \ wisdom/welcome.es \ wisdom/welcome.fi \ wisdom/welcome.fr \ wisdom/welcome.is \ wisdom/welcome.ja \ wisdom/welcome.nb \ wisdom/welcome.nl \ wisdom/welcome.ru \ wisdom/welcome.ru \ wisdom/welcome.sv \ wisdom/welcome.tr
19:31:09 <int-e> `` cd bin; echo \`*
19:31:19 <HackEso> Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
19:31:23 <HackEso> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
19:31:59 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:32:04 <wob_jonas> ``` grep -L '<http://esolangs.org/>' wisdom/welcome*
19:32:05 <HackEso> grep: wisdom/welcome.ru : Is a directory \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.ru
19:32:14 <HackEso> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.de \ wisdom/welcome.eo \ wisdom/welcome.es \ wisdom/welcome.fi \ wisdom/welcome.fr \ wisdom/welcome.is \ wisdom/welcome.ja \ wisdom/welcome.nb \ wisdom/welcome.nl \ wisdom/welcome.ru \ wisdom/welcome.ru / \ wisdom/welcome.sv \ wisdom/welcome.tr
19:32:27 <int-e> oh, function iteration. duh.
19:32:32 <wob_jonas> wait, what's the difference? oh, there's a space
19:32:42 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'wisdom/welcome.ru\': No such file or directory
19:32:58 <HackEso> 10458:2017-03-20 <shachäf> mkx bin/`^//[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \\` "$2"; done | sport \ 10454:2017-03-20 <shachäf> mkx bin/`^//[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \\` "$2"; done \ 10453:2017-03-20 <shachäf> mkx bin/`^//[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i <= $1; i++)); do \\` "$2"; done \ 10452:2017-03-20
19:33:16 <HackEso> Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <http://isulungs.oorg/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon IFnet oor DELnet.)
19:33:19 <HackEso> Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
19:33:28 <wob_jonas> ``` grep -L '<http://esolangs.org/>' wisdom/welcome*
19:34:02 <HackEso> Hei og velkommen til det internasjonale knutepunktet for esoterisk programmeringsspråkdesign og -utrulling! For mer informasjon, se wikien vår: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For den andre typen esoterisme, prøv #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
19:34:05 <HackEso> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
19:34:11 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:34:58 <fungot> int-e: ( ( laughter not me noise mm noise mhm)) i've ( ( wanted to go and the other
19:38:30 <wob_jonas> ``` perl -pi -e 's%<http://esolangs.org/>%<https://esolangs.org/>% and warn "edited $ARGV\n"' wisdom/welcome*
19:38:32 <HackEso> edited wisdom/welcome \ edited wisdom/welcome.de \ edited wisdom/welcome.eo \ edited wisdom/welcome.es \ edited wisdom/welcome.fi \ edited wisdom/welcome.fr \ edited wisdom/welcome.is \ edited wisdom/welcome.ja \ edited wisdom/welcome.nb \ edited wisdom/welcome.nl \ edited wisdom/welcome.ru \ edited wisdom/welcome.sv \ edited wisdom/welcome.tr
19:38:37 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:38:42 <HackEso> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
19:38:45 <HackEso> Hei og velkommen til det internasjonale knutepunktet for esoterisk programmeringsspråkdesign og -utrulling! For mer informasjon, se wikien vår: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For den andre typen esoterisme, prøv #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
19:38:49 <arseniiv> fungot how can you not match your patentheses, it’s so easy!
19:38:49 <fungot> arseniiv: yeah that's fun that's a lot
19:39:05 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:39:12 <HackEso> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
19:39:16 <int-e> arseniiv: it's harder than it looks ;-)
19:39:19 <HackEso> Hei og velkommen til det internasjonale knutepunktet for esoterisk programmeringsspråkdesign og -utrulling! For mer informasjon, se wikien vår: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For den andre typen esoterisme, prøv #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
19:39:21 <HackEso> HTTP is short for 'hipster technology trading platform'.
19:39:29 <HackEso> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtPs://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN EfNeT Or dAlNeT.)
19:39:34 <HackEso> myslf: Wlcm t th ntrntnl hb fr strc prgrmmng lngg dsgn nd dplymnt! Fr mr nfrmtn, chck t r wk: <https://slngs.rg/>. (Fr th thr knd f strc, try #strc n EFnt r DALnt.)
19:39:46 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wlcome: not found
19:40:07 <arseniiv> I read it existed. Some time ago then
19:40:31 <HackEso> elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttps://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n Fnet r ALnet.)
19:40:42 <HackEso> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: <https://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/>. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn EhFneht ohr DAhLneht.)
19:40:53 <arseniiv> int-e: I hope one day fungot will master it?
19:40:53 <fungot> arseniiv: ( ( noise noise noise noise noise)) if there was any age on
19:40:56 <HackEso> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： <https://esolangs.org/>。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
19:41:05 <int-e> arseniiv: unlikely
19:41:09 <HackEso> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
19:42:07 <arseniiv> oh, BTW is there emoji welcome?
19:42:17 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:42:49 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:43:06 <HackEso> Welcome To The International Hub For Esoteric Programming Language Design And Deployment! For More Information, Check Out Our Wiki: <Https://Esolangs.Org/>. (For The Other Kind Of Esoterica, Try #Esoteric On EFnet Or DALnet.)
19:43:08 <HackEso> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTPS://ESOLANGS.ORG/>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON EFNET OR DALNET.)
19:43:21 <HackEso> wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTpS://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On eFnEt oR DaLnEt.)
19:43:23 <int-e> wob_jonas: why are you doing this on the channel...
19:43:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: I've edited wisdom/welcome , which is referenced a lot, so I'm making sure that didn't break anythign
19:44:13 <HackEso> Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <http://isulungs.oorg/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon IFnet oor DELnet.)
19:44:31 <int-e> wob_jonas: HackEso is perfectly happy to reply to private messages
19:44:44 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, I did query a few in private message too
19:45:29 <wob_jonas> but you know, last time one of you complained that I'm not showing the text of the wisdom on the channel before I forget it, despite that the bin/forget tool is deliberately set up to not show it, so now I'm cautious and test many things on channel
19:45:53 <arseniiv> probably Log Gods are angry if there’s not enough welcoming in the channel
19:46:57 <wob_jonas> ``` perl -pi -e 's%<http://isu%<https://isu% and warn "e $ARGV\n"' wisdom/welcome.bork
19:47:06 <HackEso> Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <https://isulungs.oorg/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon IFnet oor DELnet.)
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19:48:08 <HackEso> The wiki is at <http://esolangs.org/>.
19:48:10 <HackEso> ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>
19:48:48 <wob_jonas> that last one is actually true. can some channel moderator edit the ChanServ ENTRYMSG to refer to <https://esolangs.org/> instead?
19:50:21 <wob_jonas> ``` perl -pi -e 's%<http://eso%<https://eso% and warn "e $ARGV\n"' wisdom/wiki
19:50:31 <HackEso> The wiki is at <https://esolangs.org/>.
19:51:53 <HackEso> Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
19:57:08 <HackEso> =@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/2238065 .
19:57:14 <wob_jonas> ^ the gmane link in this one has to be updated too
19:57:21 <wob_jonas> because the original gmane shut down
19:57:43 <wob_jonas> there should be archives of that mailing list, but I'm not sure how to locate the right message
20:03:29 <wob_jonas> https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143801938730922&w=2 is a relevant message, but I can't tell if that's the one the gmane link refers to
20:03:45 <wob_jonas> I suspect it might not be, but I don't know how to find the right one
20:03:54 <wob_jonas> meh, let's just do it, I don't know a better way for now
20:04:07 <wob_jonas> the old gmane address will still be in the hackeso version history
20:05:43 <wob_jonas> ``` sed -i 's%\<http://article\.gmane[^ ]*5 %https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel\&m=143786977730804 %' wisdom/=@ccc
20:05:45 <HackEso> wisdom/=@ccc//=@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143786977730804 .
20:05:55 <HackEso> =@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143786977730804 .
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20:58:54 <fizzie> wob_jonas: 21:58 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- The entry message for #esoteric has been set to Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>
20:59:27 <HackEso> ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>
20:59:48 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn entrymsg//ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>
20:59:51 <HackEso> Relearned 'entrymsg': ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>
20:59:56 <HackEso> ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>
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21:22:26 <HackEso> Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
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22:08:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55293&oldid=46072 * Rdococ * (+874) /* Second execution primitive: 'catch-thrown' */ new section
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00:53:05 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
00:54:06 <oerjan> we seem to be fully https'ed now. except the topic...
00:56:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international millipede for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
00:57:01 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international millipede for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
00:57:12 <oerjan> somehow skipped the first one
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01:04:54 <Galaxtone> I didn't even get to finish the name of the edit
01:06:55 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: b_jonassnack: not found
01:09:42 <oerjan> i usually do larger edits by cutting and pasting to a proper editor (vim), not just for better editing commands but also a habit from way back when the wiki was so flaky you could never count on not losing the data
01:10:21 <oerjan> but i thought it was pretty stable now.
01:10:24 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55294&oldid=55289 * Galaxtone * (+73) /* Instructions */
01:11:44 <oerjan> or at the very least i make sure to copy to clipboard before trying to save
01:15:54 <oerjan> maybe the reason i haven't seen it is because i'm doing way less edits these days.
01:16:20 <Galaxtone> well I haven't seen any sort of loss of data in every single edit I've done
01:17:10 <Galaxtone> showing all edits and if I ctrl+F 2018
01:21:52 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55295&oldid=55294 * Galaxtone * (+1507) Added substitute characters
01:22:49 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55296&oldid=55295 * Galaxtone * (+13) Forgot to add the name for the new column.
01:25:21 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55297&oldid=55296 * Galaxtone * (-2) Reverted output instruction
01:26:23 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55298&oldid=55297 * Galaxtone * (+276)
01:26:47 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55299&oldid=55298 * Galaxtone * (+1) /* Hello, World! */
01:27:11 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55300&oldid=55299 * Galaxtone * (-277) /* Hello, World! */
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07:02:12 <arseniiv> if someone wants simplified cats: https://www.instagram.com/dailypurrr
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09:48:49 <int-e> hmm is there a scalable font in which ◥◤◢◣ take up the whole cell? I've found a fixed size font with that property (whatever xterm's default for Large is)
09:49:24 <int-e> err make that Huge.
09:54:06 <fizzie> Just approximate with ▜▛▟▙ nobody'll notice the difference.
09:54:49 <int-e> fizzie: well my motivation is this: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/S.png
09:57:31 <fizzie> It doesn't really look intended as a block-drawing character, so I'd guess very few fonts interpret it that way.
09:58:01 <int-e> but we have weird people here who like weird fonts... it couldn't hurt asking the question :)
09:59:28 <fizzie> In that vein, what's the intended use case of ╱╲ which *are* for box drawing? You can't really connect them with anything else than themselves, and ╳.
10:13:07 <FireFly> int-e: not sure about that, but there's a semi-relevant Unicode proposal trying to get more glyphs from home computers and teletext allocated as seprate codepoints
10:15:30 <FireFly> http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetMatchingDocs.pl?L2/17-435 that one
10:16:15 <FireFly> I think I might've drawn it to take up the whole cell in some bitmap fonts, but you did specify scalable
11:04:49 <int-e> FireFly: yeah as the screenshot shows I've already got a reasonable bitmap font (I might still ask for a square one, I guess)
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12:11:49 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
12:13:14 <int-e> (this has a chance of becoming my new favorite way of inserting a single quote inside single quotes... even though '"'"' is one character longer than '\'')
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13:24:20 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> we seem to be fully https'ed now. except the topic..." => no, there's still wisdom/wlcom
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15:07:49 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55301&oldid=47292 * Illuminatu * (+461)
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19:04:15 <esowiki> [[Template:Bot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55302 * Kaa-kun * (+92) Created page with "<code>" WARNING - Bot user detected. CRUSH. KILL. DESTROY! "</code> -This user, who is a bot"
19:04:42 <esowiki> [[Template:SelfBot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55303&oldid=55029 * Kaa-kun * (-278) Redirected page to [[Template:Bot]]
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22:50:21 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55304&oldid=53506 * Digital Hunter * (+37) Added Surtic's "Hello World"
22:51:38 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55305&oldid=55281 * Digital Hunter * (-26)
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23:08:29 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55306&oldid=55305 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Divide two numbers, print the quotient and the remainder, then clear all the cells */
23:11:37 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55307&oldid=55306 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* Divide two numbers, print the quotient and the remainder, then clear all the cells */
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05:52:58 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55308&oldid=55230 * Schmuui * (+0) /* List of types */
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10:10:10 <wob_jonas> Argh, IRC is biting me in my back. I'm trying to find a bug report and patch from years ago, but there's no trace in emails, it's all been on some non-logged irc channel.
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14:16:13 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ghci: command not found
15:01:06 <int-e> so how do I do ghci -e 'import Data.List' -e 'interact (unlines . transpose . lines)' with ordinary command line tools? (this is a transpose; input abc \ def should become ad \ be \ cf ... it's okay if it only works for rectangular inputs)
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15:27:57 <esowiki> [[Tamalbolge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55309 * Kaa-kun * (+39) Redirected page to [[Totally Accurate Malbolge]]
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17:03:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55310&oldid=55290 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2891) Turing co
17:05:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55311&oldid=55310 * Plokmijnuhby * (-56)
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17:07:59 <ais523> here's a problem that came up at work (twice, in different contexts): we're trying to effectively attach an extra field to an object in Java (in the sense that we want to store extra information that's specific to the object)
17:08:22 <ais523> the obvious way to do that is to use a map from objects to field values, so you can store and retrieve the value via a set or get on the map
17:08:35 <ais523> however, the garbage collection properties of this aren't the same
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17:09:25 <ais523> so what you actually do is use a weak map (e.g. WeakHashMap) and then, if the object becomes otherwise unused, the weak reference to it in the map key will break and the map will deallocate the value in response
17:09:46 <ais523> but! this doesn't work 100% correctly in all cases, because if the value refers to the key, you'll get a memory leak as the weak reference in question will never break
17:10:06 <ais523> the challenge is to find something that's 100% true to the original in terms of GC properties
17:10:23 <ais523> this feels close enough to esoprogramming that I thought someone here might be able to help :-)
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17:16:59 <zzo38> Weak map is also the thing I thought to use in JavaScript to add external private data to an object.
17:17:09 <ais523> FWIW I suspect that this is impossible, but I really hope it's possible as it'd solve one minor problem and one major problem
17:17:18 <ais523> zzo38: does JavaScript have weak references?
17:17:29 <FireFly> It has a WeakMap as of ES6 I believe
17:17:31 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55312&oldid=55307 * Plokmijnuhby * (-3) Some slight bugfixes required, but mostly correct.
17:17:38 <ais523> although in this case you probably /could/ just set a field on the object directly
17:17:49 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55313&oldid=55312 * Plokmijnuhby * (-89)
17:18:01 <FireFly> sure, but that isn't safe in the general case for the obvious reasons :p
17:18:25 <ais523> clearly you need some sort of language-implemented namespacing, then it could be safe
17:18:44 <ais523> or even better, a way to generate fresh identifiers
17:18:53 <ais523> that are unequal to any other identifier and can't be typed in the program
17:19:12 <FireFly> You kinda can these days, there's a Symbol type nowadays
17:19:37 <FireFly> you can still ask for all properties (both string and symbol keys) of an object, so you can still access it that way
17:19:47 <FireFly> so it isn't entirely transparent, but for practical purposes it works the way you want it to
17:20:03 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, the WeakMap object does that. And yes you can use Symbol too, to create your own public names. Both of these are useful for different purposes.
17:20:04 <FireFly> but hmm.. the Java problem is an interesting one
17:22:07 <ais523> it feels like a chicken-and-egg problem, the ways I can come up with to do it all seem to involve being able to do it already :-(
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17:23:49 <ais523> come to think of it, this problem is equivalent to "given two objects A, B, create a relationship between them such that A cannot be freed before B is, without otherwise preventing GC operations on them"
17:25:03 <FireFly> It's a gnarly problem that I feel must've come up before in Java contexts and have had a lot of thought put to it
17:25:33 <ais523> there is a statement in WeakHashMap's documentation specifically mentioning that this case doesn't work ;-)
17:25:45 <ais523> so it must have been thought of before
17:25:52 <ais523> but it's hard to find any potential solutions to it that may exist
17:26:03 <FireFly> ...but helpfully not providing any further hints of what *does* work, if anything..
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17:41:07 <ais523> aha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeron
17:41:27 <ais523> it's a GC primitive of its own, with a name
17:41:49 <ais523> not mentioned in the Wikipedia article, but mentioned elsewhere, is that this can't be done in Java
17:46:01 <FireFly> Interesting how tables with weak keys in Lua automatically support ephemeron semantics
17:48:42 <FireFly> I suppose if your tables and the weakness of references in keys/values are primitive language features, it kind of makes sense to only trace the value if the corresponding key is found to be alive already
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18:31:38 <wob_jonas> did I just miss ais523, or did his client just disconnect temporarily?
18:33:01 <wob_jonas> oerjan: can you fix wisdom/wlcom , or delete it if it's unnecessary?
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18:41:27 <int-e> . o O ( Yes is the answer to all tautological questions. )
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18:59:15 <quintopia> no yes is a program that outputs an affirmative response
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19:04:18 <HackEso> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \
19:05:26 <\oren\> New new canonical way to express date and time is SMDH
19:06:06 <\oren\> `` date '+%s %m %d %h'
19:06:14 <\oren\> `` date '+%S %m %d %h'
19:06:28 <\oren\> `` date '+%S %m %d %H'
19:06:53 <\oren\> `` date '+%S %M %m %d %y %H'
19:09:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: meh, it's not much worse than the %a %b %d %H:%M:%S %Z %Y format that date uses by default
19:23:48 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55314 * ZM * (+3525) Created page with "'''Andromeda''' is a two-dimensional, queue-based programming language in which, apart from the usual direction-changing arrows (which also serve additional purposes), there i..."
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19:27:09 <int-e> wob_jonas: how would you transpose a text file in a shell script? I.e., abc \ def should become ad \ be \ cf (I ended up with ghci -e 'import Data.List' -e 'interact (unlines . transpose . lines)')
19:27:50 <int-e> err s/file// ... I wanted this as part of a pipe
19:29:02 <Vorpal> Found an interesting behaviour with SPF: it breaks with mail forwarders like foo@users.sourceforge.net (why was I messing with my old sourceforge address? It was the password reset email for a very old account).
19:29:16 <Vorpal> What happens is that if the origin host has a strict SPF policy, and the receiver verifies and enforces that, it will reject the forwarded mail
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19:29:27 <Vorpal> That isn't all though: The reject mail that the MTA of sourceforge sends back to the sender also contains the email that SF tried to forward to, breaking the privacy setting of the user
19:32:02 <int-e> Vorpal: so how many accounts have you stolen by now?
19:32:59 <Vorpal> As a side note, I was sending test mails from the same email that I was forwarding to, leading to some really confusing errors messages, until I figured out what was going on.
19:33:46 <Vorpal> but I managed to restore my access to that old old gmail account I used back in the day. Apparently I got about 4 emails to it after I last logged in in 2010 or so
19:34:46 <int-e> but I guess that happens when it's hard to guess and never used in public
19:34:55 <Vorpal> nah, well unless you count what google did trying to recruit FOSS developers a few years ago
19:35:38 <Vorpal> and apparently I had registered a non-commercial intel compiler license on it too, since there were some stuff related to that too
19:36:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: re transpose, I don't know, but I believe there's a question on PPCG for that or something similar
19:36:22 <Vorpal> these days I run my own mail server, and use a separate mail for each account, good thing too, the debian bug tracker leaks emails, so that one is aliased to /dev/null now
19:36:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: also, I think this year's IOCCC has a program that can do it
19:36:42 <wob_jonas> (it actually rotates, so you might have to throw in a tac)
19:36:47 <zzo38> I also run my own mail server and use a separate alias for each one
19:37:23 <Vorpal> zzo38: does it have gopher based browser interface? XD
19:37:34 <Vorpal> (note: mine doesn't, yet)
19:37:41 <zzo38> No; it uses only SMTP
19:37:59 <Vorpal> what about accessing your email? no IMAP or POP?
19:38:46 <zzo38> The server is the same computer I mainly use, so it can be accessed directly.
19:39:06 <Vorpal> int-e: Maildir is the superior format
19:42:10 <zzo38> I am just using mbox format though, which is what Heirloom-mailx uses.
19:42:31 <zzo38> (And I programmed the status bar I use on my computer to display how many messages there are)
19:46:13 <Vorpal> Maildir is much more well designed: no file locking issues, no issues with magic markers in the files
19:46:41 <zzo38> Well, I have not had a problem
19:47:39 <zzo38> How to do maildir format anyways?
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19:57:04 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55315&oldid=55314 * ZM * (+142) Categories
19:57:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55316&oldid=55159 * ZM * (+16) /* A */
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22:18:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: They sort of have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticated_Received_Chain now to deal with SPF and forwarders. The tl;dr is that it's a way for the forwarder to sign a statement saying SPF validation for the original email passed, and then if the recipient trusts the forwarder they can accept it even if it wouldn't pass SPF.
22:21:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have an @iki.fi forwarding address (IKI ry being a Finnish non-profit to promote Internet use), and it's got similar SPF issues. Some of the people running it have very strong opinions about how SPF has broken the traditional email model.
22:23:03 <fizzie> Though the battle seems to be pretty much lost. :/ A lot of the email I send via my own zem.fi SMTP server (e.g. to Hotmail, Gmail) gets caught by spam filters, and I suspect that's because they just treat it as suspicious to get email from a domain/server that doesn't send much email. Certainly no other "check for problems" system has figured out anything else wrong with the messages.
22:24:02 <fizzie> (And that's with passing SPF and DKIM checks, and TLS enabled.)
23:58:07 <zzo38> I am not using SPF and DKIM, although I think I probably do not need it. (If I somehow do need it then I could add it, I suppose)
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00:49:08 <zzo38> Is there a command in GCC to count how much memory is used by global variables?
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01:36:30 <zzo38> I do not use my own SMTP server for sending; I use the ISP's server for sending, but I have my own mail server for receiving only.
01:37:20 <zzo38> You could possibly do that. In Exim, select the "smart host" option in order to implement it this way.
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10:13:36 <Vorpal> fizzie: interesting, the most remarkable part was that SF leaked the target email in the error response though I think
10:14:48 <fizzie> Yes, that's not right.
10:15:04 <fizzie> Wonder if there's something similar with the MediaWiki email-to-user thing.
10:16:14 <fizzie> Maybe not, since it's done on the site, not by forwarding email.
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15:44:32 <HackEso> lancoin azzativereapcoin nooalithcoin teteracoin blasmcoin mohakcoin self-modcoin rusoitcoin memcoin unberictopcoin nnocoin maschamcoin moncoin whenigmocoin iodcoin alecoin brictagcoin stomonerancoin michcoin rheltytheckouokawabductediugsbytejcoin
15:45:07 <fizzie> alecoin, the cryptocurrency for pubs.
15:45:30 <int-e> but howeycoins are "real": https://www.howeycoins.com/index.html
15:45:59 <int-e> they even have a whitepaper!!11
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18:21:03 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Is there a command in GCC to count how much memory is used by global variables?" => try looking at the segment sizes in the resulting binary (no matter whether it's an object file or shared library or executable) with objdump -h . Look at both the .data and the .bss segment, the latter is zero-initialized, thus doesn't take space in the bi
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18:21:31 <wob_jonas> and probably the .rodata section too
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18:58:58 <zzo38> I looked at the man page for the "test" command, and, might it get confused if the first operand of a infix string operator or infix file operator starts with a minus sign? Therefore, the idea to add the -- operator which can optionally be used immediately before the first operand of a infix string operator or infix file operator; the operators: = != -ef -nt -ot
19:01:56 <fizzie> There's a classic workaround (for empty strings and that issue) where you apply the operator to "x$a" and "x$b" when you want to compare $a and $b.
19:01:59 <fizzie> (Not that there's anything wrong with a --, just saying.)
19:02:26 <fizzie> Not helpful for files, of course.
19:08:21 <zzo38> Yes, having -- would make it work for files too (although you might use ./ prefix if you know that it is a relative path name, maybe; that isn't so good for absolute path names though, which is why to have -- option too)
19:14:20 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55317&oldid=55304 * BoutonIA * (+56)
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20:23:20 <Vorpal> zzo38: another solution to the problem with test is to move it to a builtin in the shell that can be aware of what source of the - is
20:23:45 <Vorpal> Isn't that one of the thing that [[ in bash improves on compared to [ ?
20:26:34 <Vorpal> hm apparently not so, the big difference with [[ is some extended syntax ( && works since it is parsed by the shell, instead of as two commands) plus better handling of unquoted strings and such
20:26:53 <Vorpal> but I don't see anything about handling - specifically
20:27:31 <Vorpal> or hm! it seems that it might work, reading another post
20:27:35 <Vorpal> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/32210/why-does-parameter-expansion-with-spaces-without-quotes-work-inside-double-brack/32227#32227
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23:04:36 <zzo38> In one program, any line that does not have a colon in the third position is a comment.
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02:51:45 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55318&oldid=55313 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* How it works */
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08:50:18 <esowiki> [[Dc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55319&oldid=54469 * Rdebath * (+1274) /* Computational class */
09:08:53 <esowiki> [[Dc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55320&oldid=55319 * Rdebath * (+436) Another explicit proof
09:15:18 <esowiki> [[Dc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55321&oldid=55320 * Rdebath * (-58) I/D machine translate doesn't need init
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19:59:11 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55322&oldid=55024 * BoutonIA * (+6) /* Intrepreter */
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20:57:04 <esowiki> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55323&oldid=53447 * Rdococ * (+265)
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22:24:10 <int-e> hmm, I wonder how good the estimates on https://blog.openai.com/ai-and-compute/ are (it puts AlphaGo Zero at about 2e22 FLOPS... not so little)
22:28:56 <int-e> (and may I suggest that flops/s-day is a very silly unit)
22:35:32 <shachaf> Doesn't the "ps" already stand for "per second"?
22:35:58 <shachaf> int-e: imo watt hours/year is worse hth
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22:44:52 <int-e> shachaf: I thought the s was just plural: operation*s*.
22:45:41 <int-e> And yeah, kWh/year is also bad. At least it's something relatable from electricity bills :)
22:46:53 <int-e> But I guess a similar case can be made for flops/s-day... if you measure training time in days, but hardware performance in flops/s...
22:54:56 <int-e> of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOPS doesn't agree with me... I'll bow to that.
22:58:17 <shachaf> On the other hand your meaning is probably more reasonable
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23:00:48 <int-e> yeah but it's usually not a good idea to go against common usage
23:01:28 <int-e> So I'll just try to make a point of writing flop/s with a slash, never without.
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23:11:48 <int-e> shachaf: if you think about it, it should be fpo/s
23:12:43 <int-e> but of course that would be hard to pronounce
23:15:07 <shachaf> "flop" would be a great abbreviation, though
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00:09:19 <int-e> meh, why does socat crash on this: 2018/05/20 18:44:36 socat[18125] E SSL_connect(): Connection reset by peer / 2018/05/20 18:44:36 socat[1789] E exiting on signal 11
00:09:51 <int-e> (this is socat with the fork and forever options... and to my mind, the main idea of using fork is that it can survive such things :( )
00:10:05 <int-e> of course this is still better than the infinite loop it used to have
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00:42:28 <tswett> The Singularity is probably going to occur in late July. Early August at the latest.
00:43:45 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55324&oldid=55322 * Oerjan * (+0) ervrese
00:47:20 <int-e> tswett: what brought this on, has Ray Kurzweil become suddenly ill?
00:49:23 <tswett> int-e: nah, Andrej Karpathy pointed out that neural nets are amazing back in 2015, and everything has just snowballed from there.
00:50:28 <tswett> You know, I'll be disappointed if autonomous cars aren't ubiquitous by 2020.
00:54:01 <int-e> that seems a bit too soon
00:54:37 <int-e> and I don't necessarily mean the technological side of it... rather the regulatory side.
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03:00:59 <arseniiv> damn, with the late sprig came mosquitoes(
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03:54:38 <tswett2> What is the largest integer amount of currency that cannot be formed using coins of denominations 10, 16, 25, and 63?
03:58:26 <tswett2> No, 49 can't be formed either.
03:59:02 <tswett2> Nor 54. I guess 47 was a pretty shitty guess.
04:05:28 <tswett2> Yeah. 69 can't be made, but every number from 70 up can be made.
04:06:42 <tswett2> Proof for 69: since it's congruent to 4 mod 5, and 63 cannot be used, 16 must be used at least 4 times. But the remainder from using 16 four times is 5, which is too small.
04:07:18 <tswett2> Proof for 70 and up: manually find solutions for 70 through 79, which can be extended using denomination-10 coins.
04:07:44 <oerjan> 54 is the largest even hth
04:08:56 <oerjan> and that implies the 79 extension
04:10:44 <oerjan> and that's without 63.
04:11:13 <oerjan> do any of 70-79 need 63?
04:15:00 <tswett2> And I think that's the only one which does.
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11:35:31 <int-e> > let mg (x:xs) (y:ys) | x < y = x : mg xs (y:ys) | x > y = y : mg (x:xs) ys | x == y = x : mg xs ys; mg [] ys = ys; mg xs [] = xs; mg1 (x:xs) ys = x : mg xs ys; c n xs = foldr mg1 [0] [map (i+) xs | i <- [0,n..]] in takeWhile (<=70) $ foldr c [0] [10,16,25,63]
11:35:33 <lambdabot> [0,10,16,20,25,26,30,32,35,36,40,41,42,45,46,48,50,51,52,55,56,57,58,60,61,6...
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11:36:05 <int-e> > let mg (x:xs) (y:ys) | x < y = x : mg xs (y:ys) | x > y = y : mg (x:xs) ys | x == y = x : mg xs ys; mg [] ys = ys; mg xs [] = xs; mg1 (x:xs) ys = x : mg xs ys; c n xs = foldr mg1 [0] [map (i+) xs | i <- [0,n..]] in drop 16 $ takeWhile (<=70) $ foldr c [0] [10,16,25,63]
11:36:07 <lambdabot> [50,51,52,55,56,57,58,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,70]
11:36:44 <int-e> > let mg (x:xs) (y:ys) | x < y = x : mg xs (y:ys) | x > y = y : mg (x:xs) ys | x == y = x : mg xs ys; mg [] ys = ys; mg xs [] = xs; mg1 (x:xs) ys = x : mg xs ys; c n xs = foldr mg1 [0] [map (i+) xs | i <- [0,n..]] in drop 30 $ takeWhile (<=79) $ foldr c [0] [10,16,25,63]
11:36:46 <lambdabot> [67,68,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79]
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11:49:38 <int-e> Eh... I just downloaded https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EL/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32016R0679&from=EN but it's all Greek to me :-P
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14:13:05 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55325&oldid=55022 * Kaa-kun * (+3590) Another (pseudo-)quine
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15:03:30 <Galaxtone> So... does anyone know an algorithm that only needs addition and subtract that lets you bitwise shift right.
15:11:04 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55326&oldid=55300 * Galaxtone * (+373) Moar challenges
15:11:05 <int-e> do you have any conditionals?
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15:13:02 <int-e> (A piece of straight line code with addition and subtraction can multiply by an integer constant, and add a constant (if you have constants); so that will never give you a division by 2.)
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15:14:40 <Galaxtone_> Oh sorry lost connection, uh conditionals?
15:14:44 <int-e> whereas with conditionals, at least you can do the stupid if (x >= 128) { x -= 128; result += 64; } if (x >= 64) { x -= 64; result += 32; } etc. thing.
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15:15:56 <int-e> so what does that last one do?
15:16:10 <Galaxtone_> well I just thought of a way to simulate conditionals
15:16:17 <Galaxtone_> you could duplicate a number into two different variables
15:16:47 <Galaxtone_> then I can just make it do it until it equals -128 and 128 and I go >= and <=, >, <
15:17:17 <Galaxtone_> though this seems inefficent since the numbers can get super high and subtract will just take up all the computers time
15:17:47 <int-e> so what does that last one do again :-P
15:18:10 <Galaxtone_> well I said I think it's possible to use add, sub and equals
15:18:41 <int-e> "and if x is y" <-- what does that do?!
15:20:08 <Galaxtone_> that won't be executed if they don't match
15:20:59 <Galaxtone_> you know what... XY Problem, I'm working with emoji gramming again.
15:21:18 <int-e> hmm, what other tricks are there... are these integers, or are they bounded somehow?
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15:21:51 <int-e> (if they were machine words then you could play tricks with multiplying by 2 until you get zero)
15:22:58 <Galaxtone_> you see I want to bit shift with large numbers
15:23:59 <int-e> well it'll be slow :P
15:24:47 <Galaxtone_> It'd have to deal with 2^32 or more iterations
15:24:53 <int-e> (this would work *much* better if you had a sign test: if x negative ... )
15:25:07 <Galaxtone_> maybe I can suggest an extra instruction?
15:30:46 <int-e> well then you have a comparison, and you can double a value until it exceeds the input to find the top bit... http://paste.debian.net/1025684/
15:31:08 <int-e> (that's supposed to be a right shift, r = i / 2, if I haven't messed up)
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15:42:40 <Galaxtone_> I think you just add the same value over and over
15:43:59 <int-e> you're right to be skeptical but I firmly believe that this is doubling x
15:46:53 <Galaxtone_> anyway I'm trying to think of what would be a replacement for if statement that'd work...
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15:48:20 <felt> I'm writing an obnoxious esolang, would love some feedback
15:48:55 <Galaxtone_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Insane_Esolang, Here's mine.
15:50:07 <felt> hahaha I read the third sentence and I already love it
15:50:12 <felt> "The tape is lazy and every time a value has been accessed for the first time it assigned a random number." lamo
15:50:33 <Galaxtone_> yah but the RNG is solid so that you can predetermine it
15:50:45 <Galaxtone_> but each instruction polls it even if that instruction doesnt use RNG
15:51:14 <felt> that's very novel
15:51:49 <felt> I think I saw you talking about this on Discord?
15:52:07 <Galaxtone_> (which might I add, should be offical imo)
15:52:28 <felt> that Hello World looks killer :P
15:52:44 <felt> nah, not that far yet
15:53:03 <felt> still deciding on one important thing
15:53:06 <Galaxtone_> it just spams the I instruction until it matches
15:55:34 <felt> I'm trying to write an "I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip"-inspired language
15:55:50 <felt> From the best scene in GTA: San Andreas
15:55:51 <felt> https://youtu.be/qMDRiVj1Lz8
15:56:18 <felt> the emphasis being on Turing-completeness but most importantly realism
15:57:30 <felt> each instruction is the combination of a number from the menu, the amount ordered, and any modifying requests ('with extra dip', 'with cheese' etc)
15:58:37 <felt> The ultimate goal being to perform the Hello World program at a drive through somewhere close to my home, I'm aiming for maximum realism -- programming in this language is meant to be exactly like ordering from a drive-through
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16:52:58 <myname> a chain of values should be easy, but i can't think of a nice way for conditionals
17:12:54 <user24> https://twitter.com/dd4ta/status/998342411301646336
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18:31:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell let leet help
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19:08:03 <HackEso> aglist 591,592: b_jonas shachaf
19:08:18 <wob_jonas> it looks like the AG author is making strips kind of regularly now
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21:28:59 <HackEso> olist 1122: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:48:34 <Cale> Did someone already smlist for the talking food one?
22:50:03 <HackEso> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
22:50:22 <shachaf> If you include the number it'll be easier for people to tell which one you're listing.
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23:13:19 <zzo38> In a GURPS game the GM asked some questions about where my character live and some things I have not considered before but now we have figure out. Such as, if it is land locked and so on. What we have figured is Ziveruskex lives in the top house (of a stack of three), and is too poor to own a lock but does have a "trick door" and a noon mark; is friend Strixan lives underneath him.
23:13:57 <zzo38> The ground level house must be owned by someone who is rich enough to own (and want) furniture, I suppose.
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02:16:04 <variable> are there any esolangs where the width of a variable length font is used as the driver ?
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03:46:41 <zzo38> Why doesn't Firefox have regular expression search? I would rather have it than incremental search
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09:31:52 <felt> @Galaxtone So I'm basically just working on mapping instructions to quantity, menu-item, and special request/modifier (eg, 3 Number 9s with extra dip)
09:33:05 <felt> I'm trying to get a good distribution so that each instruction is sufficiently different from the last and they don't show any sort of pattern
09:35:28 <felt> Then, slightly more challenging, is finding a way to allow repeated instructions but have these 2nd, 3rd, etc appearances of the same instruction be a different combination of quantity/menu-item/modifier so that, even in code which is very repetitive, the overall program still comprises a realistic-sounding (though probably comically long) order at a drive-through
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09:53:17 <felt> If anyone is interested, check it out here: https://hastebin.com/gigoxubime.md
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11:02:26 <wob_jonas> Wow. I've got strange segfaults from less .
11:02:48 <wob_jonas> (Actually aborts due to failed malloc, which is slightly better than a segfault, but still.)
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11:23:30 <wob_jonas> This version control repo is a bit messy, but I guess that's better than not having old versions at all
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11:47:56 <felt> what's wrong with hastebin?
11:48:03 <int-e> well, this is the contents: <pre id="box" style="display:none;" class="hljs" tabindex="0"><code></code></pre>
11:49:34 <felt> do you know of anything better?
11:50:31 <int-e> I'm currently using https://paste.debian.net/ as a generic pastebing (and lpaste.net for haskell)
11:53:27 <int-e> (the debian one looks a bit ugly though... but the functionality is sufficient)
11:54:41 <wob_jonas> int-e: is that different from http://dpaste.com/ ?
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13:18:47 <felt> http://ix.io/ looks nice
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15:29:46 <esowiki> [[Worstscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55327&oldid=51039 * Kaa-kun * (+18) worse!!!
15:51:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55328&oldid=55209 * Galaxtone * (+153) /* Is it possible to take a number and turn it positive? */ new section
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15:52:01 <Galaxtone> I wish someone would respond to my topics
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16:06:57 <arseniiv> Galaxtone: in the language so highly coupled, I fear it’s hard to make some quick advice without diving into it deep
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16:55:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55329&oldid=55328 * Galaxtone * (+23) /* Is it possible to take a number and turn it positive? */
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18:35:25 <alercah> the word haiku is / three syllables, two morae / is this a haiku
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18:43:43 <\oren\> lol we hit the size limit of -fPIC
18:49:45 <\oren\> "relocation truncated to fit"
18:50:45 <\oren\> apparently the sum of all statically allocated data and code can't be > 2 GB
18:55:24 <izabera> did you try with -mcmodel=large?
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19:12:04 <\oren\> izabera: the powers that be have deicided to use -Oz instead of -O2
19:12:37 <\oren\> while we test this, noone is allowed toadd any new features
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19:36:19 <izabera> just be aware that Oz produces garbage code for the sake of saving space
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20:25:49 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55330&oldid=55326 * Plokmijnuhby * (+182) /* Hello, World! */ Shorter version
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20:33:06 <x86-64> HackEso, << HackEgo is still dead? aww. Oh well
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20:50:04 <esowiki> [[Worstscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55331&oldid=55327 * Plokmijnuhby * (+7) HTML can be a bit of a nightmare.
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21:51:15 <esowiki> [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55332&oldid=55150 * Qwertyu63 * (+1853)
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01:09:01 <fungot> boily: ( ( hello how're you doing))
01:09:06 <boily> fungot: good, and you?
01:09:06 <fungot> boily: um they're fairly current i i would
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01:40:35 <esowiki> [[Worstscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55333&oldid=55331 * Oerjan * (-123) I think we all suck at formatting this.
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10:39:20 <felt> Is there any news
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16:10:56 <Vorpal> felt: nope, no news. They stopped making them from now on out.
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17:19:37 <HackEso> His Master's Phonetic Hmph
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00:32:57 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55334&oldid=55318 * Digital Hunter * (-7) /* The s variable group */
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00:48:59 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55335&oldid=55334 * Digital Hunter * (+47)
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02:20:49 <shachaf> So I'm using this new editor Kakoune and its scripting language is like an esolang.
02:21:20 <shachaf> The only control flow (other than running a shell) is try-catch
02:22:53 <shachaf> The commands' official names are their keybindings, so I keep writing programs that look like "aZ;gi"bZ"az<a-;>;gi"b<a-z>u
02:24:09 <shachaf> I wonder whether it's TC without %sh{}?
02:25:13 <shachaf> Oh, there's also a kind of looping primitive.
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02:48:05 <oerjan> just make a wiki page for it hth
02:48:52 <oerjan> or better, solve some PPCG challenges
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03:09:35 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't do wikis htdnh
03:10:27 <HackEso> dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
03:10:56 <shachaf> doughnuts to horses, i thought that wouldn't be defined
03:11:02 <HackEso> 10949:2017-05-24 <Cal̈e> le//rn dth//dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
03:11:17 <shachaf> Cale edits the wisdom database?
03:11:42 <oerjan> under a pseudonym, it seems
03:12:04 <oerjan> that's just the diarrhea
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04:57:43 <irCobHead> ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A HELP CHANNEL WHERE THE HELP DON'T KNOW SHIT BUT INSTEAD OF SAYING THEY DON'T SHIT THEY WILL SPEND 10 MINS JERKING YOUR CHAIN?? LOOK NO FURTHER THAN #UBUNTU A CHANNEL FULL OF DUMB NIGGERS THAT DON'T KNOW SHIT!!
04:57:43 <irCobHead> ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A HELP CHANNEL WHERE THE HELP DON'T KNOW SHIT BUT INSTEAD OF SAYING THEY DON'T SHIT THEY WILL SPEND 10 MINS JERKING YOUR CHAIN?? LOOK NO FURTHER THAN #UBUNTU A CHANNEL FULL OF DUMB NIGGERS THAT DON'T KNOW SHIT!!
04:57:46 <irCobHead> xkapastel tswett moony arseniiv Storkman imode oerjan sftp joast Sgeo_ MDude doesthiswork tromp vertrex jix Cale alercah moei variable Guest6451 hakatashi sprocklem Warrigal_ newsham sebbu contrapumpkin danieljabailey puckipedia xa0 pikhq lambdabot Bowserinator ProofTechnique[m grumble mniip int-e rdococ diginet APic Lord_of_Life incomprehensibly esowiki b_jonas myname zemhill__ relrod catern staffehn Elronnd quintopia uplime paul25
04:57:46 <irCobHead> x k a p a s t e l t s w e t t m o o n y a r s e n i i v S t o r k m a n i m o d e o e r j a n s f t p j o a s t S g e o _ M D u d e d o e s t h i s w o r k t r o m p v e r t r e x j i x C a l e a l e r c a h m o e i v a r i a b l e G u e s t 6 4 5 1 h a k a t a s h i s p r o c k l e m W a r r i g a l _ n e w s h a m s e b b u c o n t r a p u m p k i n d a n i e l j a b a i l e y
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09:44:11 <ais523_> huh, Andromeda is really similar to an esolang I've been working on
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09:51:09 <wob_jonas> `? international talk like a pirate day
09:51:10 <HackEso> international talk like a pirate day? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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10:21:23 <esowiki> [[Along and Across]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55336 * Ais523 non-admin * (+5096) new language/meta-language
10:21:42 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55337&oldid=54357 * Ais523 non-admin * (+22) +[[Along and Across]]
10:22:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55338&oldid=55316 * Ais523 non-admin * (+23) +[[Along and Across]]
10:22:36 <ais523_> that's a /different/ esolang from the one I've been working on
10:22:45 <ais523_> currently I'm working on something like three esolangs at once
10:22:58 <ais523_> (Along and Across, the one that's simlar to Andromeda, and a third one)
10:24:02 <ais523_> wait, no, I've actually been working on four esolangs at once
10:24:14 <ais523_> so it's good to have one documented so I can go back to working on only three of them :-)
10:25:02 <ais523_> (that's if you ignore the esolang projects that I have running in the background but haven't been working on much, like The Underlambda Project)
10:26:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: you all were right when you complained about windows terminals. I just ran a vim in a mintty on a modern windows machine, maximized with 9x20 font so 46x191 cells, and scrolling down a long list by going to the next page with each control-F keypress, and the terminal was noticably slow to draw the next page
10:26:35 <ais523_> the problem is working out exactly what's wrong so that you can work around it
10:26:50 <ais523_> as it sometimes doesn't happen but nobody seems to know the exact trigger
10:29:12 <wob_jonas> apart from this though, mintty was quite usable, and easy to install too: you just unpack the portable git for windows tarball, which has not only mintty but a lot of other useful utilities like vim, cat, grep, sort, less, diff, diff3, patch, cmp, curl, openssl, sha256sum, perl.
10:29:34 <ais523_> does patch actually work with that filename?
10:29:50 <wob_jonas> spares me from installing some smaller packages separately
10:29:57 <ais523_> Windows actually special-cases the filename patch.exe, so you'd need some sort of manifest in the executable to undo the special case
10:30:15 <ais523_> it tries to elevate it to admin
10:30:21 <ais523_> there are a few other names like that, such as setup.exe
10:30:45 <ais523_> I think you can override this behaviour in both directions, you just have to know you have to and to know how
10:31:46 <wob_jonas> that may have been the problem when I installed diffutils from the http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages.html distro, I don't recall the details
10:32:42 <wob_jonas> do you mean whoever compiled git for windows could override that in both directions by putting something in the exe itself, or I can override it by some system-local setting?
10:34:39 <ais523_> NH4 has this sort of metadata to tell Windows whether to open a terminal window for it or not
10:34:59 <wob_jonas> I think the maintainers of git for windows have solved this properly then
10:35:15 <ais523_> they'd have had to run into it while testing, surely :-)
10:35:18 <wob_jonas> it's a pretty good port, as far as you can go with close to native windows experience
10:35:57 <wob_jonas> the porters are probably git enthusiasts, they'd never use bare diff/diff3/patch, they always put everything in vcs and use git subcommands for that
10:36:53 <ais523_> well, if you're going to ship an executable, wouldn't you run it at least once to see if it runs?
10:36:58 <ais523_> even if it's redundant to the other tools you use
10:37:48 <ais523_> e.g. it's very rare for me to use grep nowadays (the "make a better grep" wars have lead to a number of better alternatives), but I'd run it to make sure it worked if I were going to ship it
10:37:48 <wob_jonas> ais523_: they don't ship those individually, they get it from some upstream mingw thingy
10:38:00 <wob_jonas> that is, compile tools in mingw by bulk
10:38:31 <ais523_> maybe mingw figured out and fixed the problem, then
10:38:34 <wob_jonas> and msys and whatever these things are
10:39:13 <wob_jonas> also, I think it's x86_64... though I don't have a binutils handy so I can't check it. does the compat exception still apply to x86_64 exes?
10:42:26 <esowiki> [[Along and Across]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55339&oldid=55336 * Ais523 non-admin * (-1) /* Computational class */ distinguish may-termination from must-termination; Thue is non-deterministic
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10:42:42 <wob_jonas> hah https://superuser.com/q/894170/267786
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10:58:47 <ais523_> hmm… is it true that for any push-down automaton, there's another push-down automaton that recognises the same string backwards?
10:59:04 <ais523_> it clearly is for nondeterministic PDAs, it's less obvious if you require both to be deterministic though
10:59:34 <ais523_> this is equivalent to asking whether an LR(n) language remains LR(n) if you reverse the sequence of lexemes
11:02:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: hmm. the analog is known for deterministic automata, though the size can blow up.
11:02:51 <wob_jonas> wait what? is it really equivalent to that LR(n) thing?
11:03:46 <ais523_> deterministic PDAs recognise LR(n) languages and all LR(n) languages have some deterministic PDA that recognises them
11:04:32 <ais523_> it's obvious that finite-state machines can be reversed because they're equivalent in power to regular expressions and regular expressions can be reversed; the same sort of argument works for nondeterministic PDAs
11:04:38 <ais523_> but deterministic PDAs is harder
11:06:11 <wob_jonas> deterministic PDAs recognise LR(n) languages => hmm, I don't remember this claim. does it matter if the PDA can have null transitions? probably no.
11:06:16 <ais523_> you can tell that all LR(n) languages can be recognised by a PDA via using an explicit implementation, like yacc :-)
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11:06:44 <wob_jonas> you can tell that all LR(n) languages can be recognised by a PDA via using an explicit implementation, like yacc => I think YACC is not enough for that, but yes, I know that part
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11:22:14 <wob_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/amends/
11:22:14 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/amends/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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12:39:56 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 "<ais523_> e.g. it's very rare for me to use grep nowadays (the "make a better grep" wars have lead to a number of better alternatives), but I'd run it to make sure it worked if I were going to ship it" <-- Now I'm curious, what do you recommend instead of grep?
12:46:06 <izabera> i'd love to have a proper context-sensitive grep for strings that span multiple lines, but i haven't found one that does exactly what i want
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12:46:49 <Vorpal> izabera: csearch (debian package called codesearch iirc) is good to index and then regex search really really large code bases with
12:46:59 <Vorpal> ag I think I heard of now that you mentioned it
12:47:54 <izabera> i have something like this
12:48:13 <izabera> error_log("this is a long"
12:48:46 <Vorpal> that would need to be aware of the specific language though
12:48:48 <izabera> and i want to grep for 'this is a long error message that spans multiple lines'
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12:49:39 <Vorpal> izabera: I would like to be able to grep for error_log calls nested inside a if condition that (possibly only in part) depend on foo
12:50:04 <izabera> that's also annoyingly hard
12:50:26 <izabera> it's ridiculous how bad the state of the art is
12:50:41 <Vorpal> iirc for C there is a tool for the latter thing though
12:50:54 <Vorpal> developed by the linux kernel devs
12:50:58 <Vorpal> trying to remember the name of it
12:51:17 <Vorpal> http://coccinelle.lip6.fr/
12:51:38 <Vorpal> I have no use for it, I write C++ and Python mostly
12:51:45 <Vorpal> (for my day job I mean)
12:52:19 <Vorpal> izabera: might be of use to you, if you code in C
13:00:48 <Vorpal> izabera: and yeah, if you just want speed for regex search on multi-GB code bases, nothing beats csearch
13:01:18 <Vorpal> it creates and index with trigrams and uses the literal trigrams in your regex to narrow down which files to even look at
13:02:19 <Vorpal> doesn't support back references though, it only supports the limited regex dialect that can be compiled down to a DFA (as opposed to what PCRE and other backtracking implementations can do)
13:02:50 <izabera> i doubt that many companies have such codebases
13:05:45 <Vorpal> izabera: I work with a large project (about 1 GB source code, some consists of shared platform code, sure) targeting a cross-compiling internally produced device SDK (also really large). I use csearch to index all the source in the SDK and the project. Works very well
13:06:23 <Vorpal> very nice to just be able to find some weird internal string in Qt or whatever in less than a second
13:07:16 <Vorpal> aha, here is the link: https://github.com/google/codesearch
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15:19:40 <wob_jonas> What's the sanest way to represent a structure P where there's a shared reference to every instance of P from a global table, and so you must not move P values, you also must call the destructor before you drop a P value, but if you call the destructor that's fine because it will remove the reference from the global table.
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18:13:11 <imode> why do people get angry on IRC.
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18:34:50 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: hehe, I have my own old grep clone too, called cgrep, but I don't use it these days because it's not actually better than gnu grep
18:35:51 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: there are superior tools, but they are mostly situational. I use pcregrep occasionally for the zero width assertion support for example
18:36:15 <Vorpal> and csearch is great for large code bases
18:36:26 <Vorpal> and hm, ag looks interesting
18:36:29 <Vorpal> will have to try that out
18:36:52 <wob_jonas> The only thing cgrep can do that some other grep tools can't is that it can tell you the function name the line appears in, but that only if the program is formatted in the classic way I use where the function name is at the very first column of the line but almost nothing else is.
18:37:56 <wob_jonas> I actually prefer that format, and use it even for C++, as in template<type T> void Foo<T>::
18:39:03 <wob_jonas> and even use that for global variables and for functions or variables where the identifier is preceded by a start or ampersand or is in parenthesis.
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18:44:14 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: so it does nothing for inline methods, or python or a lot of other things ;P
18:44:35 <Vorpal> Generally I search from inside an editor or IDE anyway, mostly QtCreator, PyCharm or Sublime at work
18:47:54 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: sure, and I find that even for code I write where it does work, it isn't useful, because I don't want to see the function name
18:48:23 <wob_jonas> I thought I would, when I wrote this utility, but now I find that's not actually that useful
18:48:35 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: also, why on earth put the { on a separate line? It is a waste of vertical space :P
18:49:24 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: I put the { on a separate line only for function definitions and struct definitions, not for inner control statements or similar.
18:49:42 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: inconsistent as well as a waste of space
18:49:55 <wob_jonas> and I've flip-flopped on that too, I'm not sure if putting it on a separate line is the best or not
18:50:11 <wob_jonas> currently I think it is, but I'm not sure
18:50:31 <Vorpal> so you at least write else the proper way? "} else {" all on one line
18:50:57 <Vorpal> tabs or spaces? and how many?
18:51:05 <int-e> Hmm, this is *not* how the law works, dear spammer. "Please click on the "Cancel" button below by Friday 25 May 2018 if you want to unsubscribe from our newsletter. If you’d like to keep receiving emails from us just ignore this email"
18:51:24 <wob_jonas> I've varied that (tab or space and how many), I'm not sure what's the best.
18:51:35 <wob_jonas> I used to use tabs, but these days I think spaces are better.
18:51:37 <int-e> (But no, I didn't "click")
18:51:42 <Vorpal> int-e: is that spammer trying to make a reference to GDPR??
18:52:05 <wob_jonas> It gets complicated because indent size is something where I'm more willing to match the existing codebase, even if in some other parts of the style I don't always do that
18:52:13 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I think that indent by tab, adjust by space is best. But it requires dicipline or an editor that supports it
18:52:20 <int-e> Vorpal: Well they pretend to be a newsletter, but I'm certain it's one I've never subscribed to... so it's spam.
18:52:32 <Vorpal> for Python I go full on PEP8 (4 spaces) though, since it is pretty much the standard for that language
18:53:24 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: namespaces in C++, do they cause indentation in your style though?
18:54:00 <Vorpal> I think the lack of that is perhaps the one good thing about the style at work. Which is otherwise bad: { on new line always, 3 spaces indent
18:54:50 <Vorpal> so I think I have gotten about 5 GDPR mails today...
18:55:03 <wob_jonas> I'm also sometimes unsure about what formatting style to use for longer initializer lists or longer expressions, especially where to put the parenthesis or brackets or dots
18:55:23 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: in what programming language?
18:55:52 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: the initializer lists are good at work too:
18:56:38 <wob_jonas> are those even called initializer lists?
18:56:51 <Vorpal> hm, what are they called if not that?
18:57:02 <wob_jonas> I mean braces to initialize an aggregate, especially an array, possibly an array of structures
18:57:07 <Vorpal> but you probably mean vector<int> foo = {1, 2, 3} then?
18:57:19 <int-e> Vorpal: not sure I envy you, but yes that's what I meant when I said that I feel left out.
18:57:47 <int-e> Vorpal: well, I got 1 GDPR mail today!
18:58:08 <Vorpal> oh, they started dropping in about a month ago, and just more and more every week since then
18:58:19 <wob_jonas> hmm, apparently the constructor stuff is called initializer list too. that's confusing.
18:58:30 <wob_jonas> let me check what the grammar in the standard calls them
18:58:39 <int-e> while everybody else seems to be celebrating being unsubscribed from everything :P
18:58:52 <Vorpal> int-e: at least I got a good list of all the online services I'm using and customer "clubs" and such that I'm in.
18:59:49 <Vorpal> int-e: not a EU citizen?
19:00:23 <int-e> (and it's a .de email address so it's blatantly obvious)
19:01:20 <int-e> well a few legitimate services have contacted me. like github.
19:01:30 <Vorpal> I put everything GDPR in a separate mailbox, just to be able to get a complete list of all services I use, turns out to be about 30-40 so far, eyeballing the list
19:01:44 <Vorpal> int-e: oh yeah, I talked about legitimate ones here
19:01:51 <Vorpal> haven't gotten any spam ones
19:02:02 <int-e> but even there I think I'm only up to 3 or 4 now
19:02:31 <Vorpal> Nothing from Steam though
19:03:44 <int-e> gog... oh gog was early, April 26th
19:04:15 <Vorpal> humble bundle was quite late though
19:04:59 <Vorpal> some Swedish companies were earlier
19:05:05 <Vorpal> Spotify was quite late
19:05:11 <wob_jonas> called ctor-initializer and mem-initializer-list (the former includes the leading colon), defined in [class.base.init] and referenced in [dcl.fct.def.general] in the C++ standard
19:05:42 <int-e> Vorpal: oh well, I guess there'll be more to come in the next few weeks
19:05:45 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: so doesn't really help
19:06:15 <Vorpal> int-e: shouldn't be, the law goes into effect tomorrow. And surely nobody missed the deadline ;P
19:06:45 <wob_jonas> I haven't gotten many GPDR-related emails yet, despite that I advertise my email addresses a lot, even to many services on the internet (my email addres is ambrus@math.bme.hu )
19:07:32 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I use a separate email for every service and just put aliases in /etc/aliases. Thus it is easy to blacklist them if I start getting spam via dem
19:07:42 <Vorpal> as happened with the mail I used for the debian bug tracker
19:07:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: it doesn't seem to me like that law differs much from the data protection laws we already had in effect. the only big difference is that it explicitly tries to bind services ran outside of Europe when they have users in Europe
19:08:09 <Vorpal> I should file a bug to the debian bug tracker that they don't mask the emails properly
19:08:28 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: for a few services I have done that, and yes, that can be useful, I just usually don't bother
19:09:21 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: masking emails in mailing list archives is hard, because the emails sometimes get quoted in message bodies, and then the archives try to mask everything that has an at sign, and break all sorts of scripts that happen to contain an at sign in it so you can't copy them from the archive
19:09:34 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: it is a bug tracker, not a mailing list though
19:10:05 <wob_jonas> but for the bug trackers, well, I want them to find the emails. it's rather random websites and stores where I don't want them to send newsletters later.
19:10:46 <Vorpal> it wasn't them spamming me, it was someone finding the unmasked email in the bug report and spamming that
19:11:16 <wob_jonas> I mean, I even have published scholarly articles with my email address on them, by design, so it's no wonder I get conference invitations and journal invitations with article titles and emails automatically harvested
19:11:56 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: when I report a bug on github, or using the kernel bugzilla, my email is never made public
19:12:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: all of which is illegal under the GDPR :)
19:12:06 <Vorpal> so, why should the debian bug tracker do that
19:12:19 <Vorpal> int-e: does GDPR cover spam?
19:12:45 <Vorpal> but yeah I assume that the debian bug tracker may have issues with GPDR and not masking emails. Hm...
19:12:45 <int-e> (because, presumably, you provided the email address so that fellow academics can contact you about your paper and maybe related research, and nothing else)
19:13:27 <int-e> Vorpal: sure. it may not be effective, but it does cover spam, as it's processing your email address, which is personal information
19:14:23 <wob_jonas> I also have my email address on my homepage, although there it's deliberately obfuscated.
19:14:30 <Vorpal> well, tomorrow I'll file a bug with the debian bug tracker about how they treat the emails then
19:15:55 <Vorpal> jeez, their search function is terrible. Doesn't allow you to do a global free text search, you have to specify a package it seems
19:16:42 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: there are general web search engines like google search for a global search, they even let you restrict to a website under an url-directory
19:17:15 <Vorpal> yes I know, but they lag behind
19:17:28 <Vorpal> I wanted to know if there were any bugs filed mentioning GDPR
19:21:10 <wob_jonas> Hehe. Now I'm reminded to my bug report where gnu had a corrupted copy of the FSF on the glibc website. https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21383
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19:22:31 <Vorpal> at least bugzilla has a proper search function
19:24:30 <wob_jonas> but the bug tracker for nethack4 at https://roguelikes.live/nh4-bugzilla/ is messed up so the search doesn't work properly, probably because importing the bugs from the previous bug tracker (a Trac wiki) was done incorrectly
19:24:37 <wob_jonas> so you can find surprises there too
19:25:18 <wob_jonas> there's a bug ticket for that filed by the way, although it's hard to find
19:26:54 <wob_jonas> https://roguelikes.live/nh4-bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=955
19:28:20 <Vorpal> This server could not prove that it is roguelikes.live; its security certificate expired 77 days ago.
19:28:27 <Vorpal> not a professionally run site
19:28:49 <wob_jonas> there might be a bug ticket about that too, I dunno
19:29:13 <wob_jonas> it's certainly not professional, nobody involved gets payed for it, and everyone has little time and doing it as a hobby only
19:29:16 <Vorpal> and it is using lets encrypt
19:29:20 <Vorpal> so they screwed up the cron job
19:29:37 <wob_jonas> still a bit better than when the whole bug tracker was unaccessible for a while
19:30:10 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: which is why I don't see the point in not going for github, gitlab or bitbucket
19:30:29 <Vorpal> all three services work way better than that
19:30:33 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: those sites suck and keep changing and hard to migrate away from them
19:30:43 <wob_jonas> especially the bug tracker is hard to migrate away
19:31:13 <wob_jonas> the code in the repo and its version history is usually easy to migrate away
19:32:03 <wob_jonas> and when you host something on a big externally ran site, you're at their mercy, you can't do much if they decide to ban you, because it's not worth for them to spend time with problematic customers, they're satisfied with the other 95% of people who are using the site without a problem
19:32:36 <wob_jonas> you can't predict if you'll still be able to use the same site conveniently five or ten years ago
19:32:57 <Vorpal> hm, GDPR data portability won't help, since it isn't private personal data
19:33:45 <Vorpal> the data portability requirements will be interesting. Will your private playlists on spotify count for example?
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19:35:58 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: probably Nickserv is confused and renaming users that he thinks aren't logged on and have nick enforcement
19:36:24 <Vorpal> i'm lagging due to all the renames, heh
19:36:36 <Vorpal> it might rename me next then
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19:41:30 <Vorpal> IRC really is idiosyncratic with it's nick handling, compared to every modern service
19:42:07 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: IRC is old and cares a lot about historical compatibility
19:42:26 <Vorpal> I was an admin on a small network for a while, I know how it works
19:42:53 <wob_jonas> I was never admin, but wrote clients and asked questions from the freenode buys and that's why I know a lot of details
19:43:06 <Vorpal> oh and I wrote a bot too
19:43:26 <wob_jonas> I wrote multiple, and probably will write more in the future. Not in bash though.
19:43:29 <Vorpal> it had IPv6 support as well as loadable modules
19:43:48 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: https://github.com/envbot/envbot
19:44:33 <Vorpal> I thought about writing a server, but meh
19:44:35 <wob_jonas> I'm also looking forward to the future not-quite-irc protocol that would allow non-tree configuration of servers, with loops. Will be useful if we expand to multiple planets far from earth or the like.
19:44:42 <Vorpal> in erlang (or elixir these days)
19:45:08 <wob_jonas> Writing a server is harder. That's deliberate, IRC is designed to make writing clients easy. Servers have to put up with a lot of stuff that's optional or non-existent for clients.
19:45:10 <Vorpal> anyone working on that protocol? and what is it called?
19:45:35 <Vorpal> anyway a mesh network would be fun
19:45:50 <wob_jonas> I think people are at least working on what we can replace TCP with when we expand to faraway planets, which is a harder problem
19:46:20 <wob_jonas> and mind you, tree configuration still works if we have people on earth-moon and mars but nowhere else, you only need loops for the third planet
19:46:27 <wob_jonas> but you already need a tcp-replacement for mars
19:47:48 <wob_jonas> and a replacement for how the web works too, with all these heavily server-client interactive websites
19:49:30 <wob_jonas> mind you, we already have some of that, with these crazy web apps that run everything locally in your browser, including when you're offline
19:49:53 <Vorpal> hm, a lot of local caching. something like wikipedia would be hard though. Who would do the 3-way merges?
19:50:31 <Vorpal> or we invent FTL communication
19:52:23 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: also if github shuts down I think they will work out a way to handle it first. Google code and Microsoft codeplex shutdown somewhat gracefully, allowing easy migration to github. Though github has that as it's only business, unlike google and MS, so who knows
20:02:37 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: there' s a lot of hard design problems in getting services usable with 30 minutes of latency, even if you designed them from the scratch, especially if you care about values like privacy and distributed systems like hackers on the internet usually do
20:02:57 <wob_jonas> and gets even worse if the bandwidth across planets isn't infinite, which is pretty likely
20:03:39 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: it is more than 30 minutes usually
20:04:09 <Vorpal> isn't it like a couple of hours to Mars when it is furthest away
20:05:31 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: no. it's at most 23 minutes from Earth to Mars, double that for a round trip
20:05:53 <wob_jonas> and for some practical tasks you will need two or more round trips
20:06:15 <wob_jonas> but of course it gets worse if you want places farther than Mars
20:06:50 <Vorpal> what about when it is occluded by the sun and you need to bounce it via some satellite
20:07:04 <Vorpal> then it won't be shortest path
20:07:11 <Vorpal> or did you include that in the calculation?
20:20:10 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: no, I haven't included that
20:20:14 <wob_jonas> but that shouldn't add too much time
20:21:19 <int-e> have you seen https://gdprhallofshame.com/ ?
20:21:50 <wob_jonas> I should re-read Heinlein's ''Time enough for love'' novel. IIRC it starts by a viewpoint character saying that he's a historian studying modern (at the time) history, but even for a prof'nal like him it's impossible to tell much about all of humanity, because
20:22:36 <wob_jonas> humans are colonizing the galaxy with close to the speed of light, so by the time he gets news from the pioneers farthest to him, they're no longer the farthest ones and the news is obsolete, but this has only been going on for like 20000 years so the colonization definitely hasn't reached any sort of stable state yet.
20:23:33 <HackEso> smlist 463: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
20:26:19 <Vorpal> int-e: no, but that is amazing
20:29:26 <wob_jonas> Mind you, later in the book FTL travel is invented, and the most powerful kind too, the one that lets them freely travel back to the past to before FTL travel was invented.
20:31:40 <wob_jonas> Mind you, even on earth we sometimes have to deal with a second or two of latency when data goes through satellites.
20:34:03 <wob_jonas> A fun example was around 2000, when we watched sportsball matches on the Sydney olympics, and if you listened on the radio, you'd know the goals a second or two before they were shown on television.
20:41:37 <int-e> it may be worse today than back then... as videos get streamed and reencoded, which requires a buffer for each stage...
20:50:07 <wob_jonas> I just opened the plastic wrapping of a pack of bulgur wheat wrong, and spilt what looks like 50 g of grains everywhere. Some stayed on the kitchen counter, some went on the floor, some on the stove. I think there must be a few grains even under the dishwasher, where they will stay for years.
20:51:42 <wob_jonas> but back then we had the expectation that radio and TV are instantous. I even synced my clocks to the time announcement beeps in the radio, and could expect sub-second precision since all of it was generated and broadcast within Hungary.
20:52:16 <wob_jonas> The radio no longer broadcasts time beeps like that, and even the telephone company has discontinued the telephone voice clock service.
20:52:43 <wob_jonas> Instead we have to sync time to the internet or GPS signals now.
20:53:03 <wob_jonas> At least I can still have my computer sync to an internet time service within Hungary.
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20:54:47 <fizzie> We had a radio-synced alarm clock back in Finland, and at least a year or two ago it was still operational.
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20:55:52 <fizzie> "The transmitter in Germany has an official range of 2,000 km. This means that the UK and Ireland should be well within range."
20:56:11 <fizzie> (That was from the manual of a different model, but I'm guessing it was the same sort of thing.)
20:57:58 <fizzie> ~1260 km from Braunschweig to Helsinki, so it would've been in range too.
20:58:02 <wob_jonas> useful if you want to run for a long time off a small battery, because receiving GPS can take somewhat more power
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21:13:25 <wob_jonas> bulgur is somewhat of a new addition to shops here. ten years ago I think I hadn't even heard of it.
21:14:30 <wob_jonas> it's made of wheat only with nothing else, like no-eggs pasta is, but isn't ground to flour first, so it's full of protein and dietary-fibers, but processed in some way that you can cook it in water quickly and serve as is as a side dish, like pasta or rice.
21:15:05 <wob_jonas> I don't know why we hadn't had it before, it's not like you need exotic conditions to make it
21:15:10 <wob_jonas> probably just some culture difference
21:15:24 <wob_jonas> is probably grown and produced locally now
21:15:56 <wob_jonas> oh, and it lasts for at least six months without cooling like rice or pasta does
21:16:13 <shachaf> the confusing part is that the hebrew name is "burgul"
21:19:32 <wob_jonas> ok, cooking tested successful. now I'll have to pack the fish and bulgur in a box for lunch tomorrow, plus pack a lemon because that's best applied freshly, and a towel because tomorrow is towel day
21:27:51 <int-e> there's a fungot in everyone of us, waiting to get out
21:27:52 <fungot> int-e: ( ( wow)) don't think that's such a tough thing so if you didn't do that my my dad he travels um he works for a little while they're in the dishwasher
21:28:04 <int-e> s/everyone/every one/
21:31:09 <wob_jonas> nah, it's more like I'm just talking to mysefl
21:31:16 <wob_jonas> because I don't have anyone else around to talk to
21:31:48 <HackEso> 89) <Quas_NaArt> Hooray! <Quas_NaArt> I'm an idiot.
21:31:56 <wob_jonas> and this is a friendly irc channel where I can say random stuff
21:33:10 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input
21:33:43 <int-e> that's an awful error message
21:33:56 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input
21:36:20 <int-e> @dice 1000000000d2
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21:37:15 <int-e> (afair it samples a normal distribution with the right expected value and variance)
21:38:15 <int-e> there's a cut-off for that... perhaps 20. (So for 20d6 it samples a d6 20 times, but above that, it'll approximate)
21:39:39 <wob_jonas> int-e: I think for a small second argument, you can sample the distribution exactly, just like you can do so for a small first argument
21:39:48 <wob_jonas> if both are large you may need an approximation
21:39:51 <shachaf> I wanted physics simulations of rolling dice
21:40:27 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that's expensive. it's cheaper to outsource it to real people in the far east rolling dice for cheap
21:44:00 <fizzie> Hmm, that's tricky. My current keyboard no longer works in the GRUB menu at boot time, only after booting. So I can't select the thing I'd want to boot. :/
21:44:37 <fizzie> I thought it was (for whatever reason) because the keyboard was connected to the monitor's built-in USB hub, but looks like it doesn't work even if plugged in directly to one of the ports.
21:45:07 <fizzie> I did have to replace a keyboard semi-recently, so maybe it's just something with this particular keyboard. But that's... scow.
21:45:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: is it a wired or a wireless keyboard? native USB or converted? how old is the motherboard?
21:46:00 <wob_jonas> fizzie: and does it help if you physically unplug and replug the keyboard at the grub boot prompt?
21:46:24 <fizzie> Wired, native USB, some amount of years, maybe four. The previous (USB) keyboard worked fine.
21:46:41 <fizzie> I will have to bump up the timeout in order to be able to test that.
21:47:10 <fizzie> (Also maybe it could start working after some seconds of warming up anyway. Seems a little odd.)
21:47:51 <wob_jonas> If that doesn't work, then you might need some workaround, such as a different keyboard for booting, or controlling grub from a remote machine through serial terminal, or by inserting a floppy or pendrive, or booting from a floppy or pendrive.
21:49:11 <fizzie> I'm a bit lacking in serial ports these days. The old keyboard is probably still somewhere, though.
21:49:48 <wob_jonas> Long ago I did have a system where I booted windows 95 from a floppy, but DOS and linux from the hard disk, on the same machine, but that wasn't because the keyboard didn't work, and indeed I could chose between windows and linux using the keyboard.
21:51:57 <fizzie> No luck with replugging. Tried a couple of different ports on the motherboard as well.
21:52:10 <fizzie> Also tried disconnecting other USB devices.
21:52:37 <fizzie> Though maybe I should try booting with no other USB devices connected in the first place, in case it got permanently confused.
21:53:14 <fizzie> (Another machine here hangs permanently at boot time if an external USB hard disk enclosure is connected.)
21:53:47 <wob_jonas> Also long ago, I had a keyboard that didn't work after hard power cycling the machine (just using the power button to shut down didn't trigger that, you'd have to remove the power from the motherboard) until I pulled the keyboard plug and replugged it. This was probably because it was a keyboard with an AT plug and an AT to PS/2 converter, and they
21:53:47 <wob_jonas> didn't test the motherboard for that.
21:54:27 <wob_jonas> AT plug was sort of old technology back then.
21:54:44 <wob_jonas> But old keyboards can be very good quality and last for a long time, so it's a real use.
21:54:47 <fizzie> Huh, that actually worked.
21:54:58 <fizzie> When I boot it with the monitor's USB cable disconnected, the keyboard works.
21:55:25 <fizzie> Now I just need to remember to do that every time I need to do something in the boot prompt.
21:56:11 <fizzie> (Hypothesis: boot-time USB HID device enumeration gets confused by the hub and gives up.)
21:57:13 <wob_jonas> in that case it might be worth to try to plug the USB devices to different ports
21:57:23 <wob_jonas> in case you get a configuration that works without having to replug anything
21:57:48 <wob_jonas> is the monitor USB cable for an USB hub in the monitor? for a camera built into it?\
22:04:30 <fizzie> For an USB hub. It doesn't have any other USB features.
22:04:56 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I had a phone plugged in said USB hub, it's always possible that might've confused it too.
22:05:10 <fizzie> (And a mouse, and one more hub.)
22:05:15 <wob_jonas> I wonder, do any monitors have a microphone in them? I know some have built-in speakers and a camera.
22:06:56 <fizzie> All-in-one PCs do, but those probably don't count as "monitors" really.
22:07:20 <fizzie> I would expect at least some of the camera-equipped monitors would have a microphone as well.
22:07:26 <wob_jonas> yeah, some notebooks definitely have a microphone built in
22:08:47 <fizzie> The Dell P2418HZ "Monitor for Video Conferencing" says it has a microphone.
22:09:09 <int-e> why do you want a microphone in your monitor though
22:09:29 <fizzie> int-e: To "make business personal".
22:09:47 <fizzie> And to "collaborate in stunning clarity".
22:10:11 <int-e> that's more of a puzzler than an explanation... are you quoting a buzzing brochure?
22:10:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: if use the a camera in it, that means it's already connected to the computer with a cable that can transmit video data, so presumably it can transmit audio data on the same cable too, and the camera is already close to whatever it's watching, so the microphone will be too
22:10:33 <fizzie> It's Microsoft® Skype® for Business certified.
22:10:42 <wob_jonas> int-e: so sort of like why some not very tiny stand-alone video cameras have a microphone built in
22:10:59 <wob_jonas> including both webcameras and standalone cameras
22:11:13 <fizzie> Today we used my laptop for audio because the meeting room's speaker was uncooperative.
22:11:20 <wob_jonas> the smaller cameras don't, to save space and possibly money
22:11:29 <fizzie> (The video side worked fine.)
22:11:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I used a notebook built-in microphone for skype call yesterday (but an external earplug speaker)
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22:29:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * The Piper * New user account
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02:07:25 <zzo38> I managed to only partially copy a ZIP file from a floppy disk onto my computer. How can I use that partial ZIP file?
02:18:27 <esowiki> [[Along and Across]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55340&oldid=55339 * Oerjan * (+6) /* Semantics */ Looks like an error
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02:44:48 <zzo38> I found out that bsdtar will read it.
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03:05:18 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> I'll answer that question then <-- and thus i finally learn what your family name is... at least i _think_ i would have remembered that if i'd seen it before.
03:07:38 <shachaf> b_jonas has certainly linked to his website here before
03:09:10 <oerjan> maybe it's _anti_-memorable, then.
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04:26:38 <Galaxtone> Test changes shows Schmuu! within the code block
04:26:46 <Galaxtone> but save changes shows it outside the code block
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05:18:40 <shachaf> oerjan: So recursion depth is bounded and the other looping mechanism is also bounded. :-(
05:18:53 <shachaf> But I wrote http://slbkbs.org/kak/bf.kak
05:25:26 <oerjan> . o O ( shachaf knows Jelly? )
05:25:50 <shachaf> I just remembered there was some esolang that had a character set for 256 byes.
05:26:08 <shachaf> Probably more than one. I looked on PPCG until I found an example.
05:26:48 <shachaf> Oh, this is that editor I was talking about.
05:27:29 <oerjan> yeah it's very common for golfing languages made for PPCG
05:30:51 <oerjan> so it's just forever that isn't truly forever?
05:31:53 <shachaf> Yes, this one just does 1000000 steps.
05:35:56 <shachaf> Oh man, if you add ^L to each step you can see the program as it runs. This is much better.
05:39:53 <oerjan> . o O ( now use it to play Lost Kingdom )
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08:00:38 <wob_jonas> So when I tell Excel to save a worksheet as unicode text, it actually encodes it in utf-16. That was confusing. I expected utf-8 and didn't understand why my program wasn't working.
08:06:41 <int-e> standards-complaint
08:10:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, you can set up an action to run when something happens and then nothing else happens for some amount of time.
08:10:54 <shachaf> Which would technically make it TC, I suppose.
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08:19:56 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I actually have a split profile on Stack Exchange, with my real name showing up on MathOverflow and cstheory SE and math SE, but b_jonas on most other sites. Only my real name is the default, I can't easily change that, and I haven't bothered setting it to b_jonas on all SE sites.
08:20:46 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, multiple esolangs with such character sets, Jelly is one of them
08:22:26 <wob_jonas> mind you, a purist esolang would just assign meaning to bytes without caring about what character to represent them; or evenand possibly even have some pretty human-writable multi-character representation that's them compiled to compressed code for the language, with arithmetic compression so it isn't even structured in bytes
08:22:46 <wob_jonas> I know about jelly because ais523 programs in it
08:23:16 <shachaf> Of course those characters exist to display bytes that have meanings independent of the characters.
08:23:16 <wob_jonas> but I don't know much more about it than that it has that strange character encoding and some really strange rules with lots of heuristics and exceptions
08:23:48 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, but why would you have to display them as single characters?
08:24:04 <wob_jonas> you could display them as very short sequences of ascii characters instead.
08:24:18 <shachaf> Well, in my case, it's beause I wanted a compact way to display unprintable bytes.
08:24:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: cp437 is _almost_ good for that, except that 0x20, 0x00, and 0xFF look exactly the same
08:25:45 <shachaf> I also wanted newline not to break the line in this case.
08:26:51 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> oerjan: Oh, you can set up an action to run when something happens and then nothing else happens for some amount of time." => is that still about that editor with try-catch as the only control construct?
08:27:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: cp437 has a printable character for newline. some sort of music note or sun or whatever. there's one for \r and one for \n .
08:28:13 <wob_jonas> Ah no, inverted hollow circle for \n and musical note for \r
08:33:10 <wob_jonas> My bitmap font actually has the cp437 values for most of the ascii control characters, and the cp437 values drawn in thin lines for the high control characters, only they're hard to show because most terminals and font engines won't display those characters, because the control characters aren't supposed to be drawn as a glyph from the font.
08:33:37 <wob_jonas> That's a feature, as in, when you print a newline, you want them to break the line instead of show an inverted circle.
08:33:53 <wob_jonas> I think you could still display them with custom code, but that's not helpful.
08:34:16 <wob_jonas> I mean, it would be easier for the font to just copy those glyphs on some other unused characters.
08:35:44 <wob_jonas> Also, xterm in byte encoding (as opposed to utf-8 encoding; xterm wants the font encoding to match the terminal encoding, which is really silly) uses a few of the control character places in the font as line-drawing characters that you access in the terminal with ANSI control codes to shift to the alternate character set.
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09:02:52 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: why would you use anything except pure UTF-8 these days though in a terminal?
09:02:59 <Vorpal> UTF-16 perhaps on windows
09:03:37 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: these days I do use utf-8 in the terminal, but like five or ten years ago that wasn't so obvious
09:04:02 <wob_jonas> I was slow to adapt utf-8 because people kept changing character encodings and saying that you should use the next one because it's the best thing every five years
09:04:59 <wob_jonas> it started with iso-646-* national variants before my time, then cp437/cwi, then cp850 on dos, then cp1252 on windows and iso-8859-2 on linux. after the third character set, you don't want to change to the next hot big thing everyone's talking about, just in case it won't stick
09:05:33 <wob_jonas> so for a while I ran them mixed, had both iso-8859-2 and utf-8 terminals mixed, then eventually I started using only utf-8
09:05:56 <wob_jonas> for terminals, that is. I still have some files encoded differently.
09:05:59 <Vorpal> I think i went utf-8 like 15 years ago or so
09:06:28 <Vorpal> well, I was on mac os 9 back then, so probably had some MacRoman too
09:07:52 <Vorpal> huh, google chrome finds "a" when I search for "å" in a page
09:08:24 <Vorpal> I wonder if it is related to LC_COLLATE
09:34:10 <fizzie> In Finland there was a brief moment of ISO-8859-15 between ISO-8859-1 and UTF-8.
09:38:25 <fizzie> I've booted to Windows (10) for the first time since November 2016, and it's having considerable trouble getting all the updates installed.
09:39:03 <Vorpal> i ran into an issue the other week, where I wouldn't get any user accounts listed on the login screen
09:39:10 <Vorpal> unless I booted into safe mode, where it worked
09:39:29 <Vorpal> the fix was to go to safe mode, open msconfig and change to "normal startup"
09:39:57 <fizzie> I'm on my fourth reboot now, and it somehow managed to start two different update mechanisms (Windows Update, and some sort of more dist-upgrade-ish thing) at the same time.
09:40:55 <Vorpal> yeah this will probably take a while, always does with windows
09:46:00 <fizzie> It's also a little bit awkward, because every time it reboots I have to unplug the monitor's USB cable, otherwise the keyboard won't work in GRUB prompt and I can't select Windows.
09:47:17 <wob_jonas> fizzie: luckily nobody adapted iso-8859-16 here, because the Euro was never introduced in Hungary, there was no such unicode character split as with the romanian s with comma, none of the missing letters used in Hungarian, and anyway, people used the new version of cp1250 instead.
09:48:11 <wob_jonas> Mind you, when MS added new characters including the euro sign and the s with comma to cp1250 and cp1252, they effectively created a new character set and possible confusion because they didn't give it a new name
09:48:32 <wob_jonas> that's sort of cheating, so I guess there is an extra step I didn't mention too
09:49:58 <wob_jonas> and of course cp1250 differs more from 8859-2 than cp1252 does from 8859-1, with some characters moved, but those didn't impact Hungarian texts
09:52:25 <wob_jonas> plus you can count cwi as a separate character set from cp437, and I think there were some legacy character sets used on old pre-IBM-PC computer sets that put a few accented letters to the ascii printable range but doesn't match the iso-646 assignment
09:54:11 <fizzie> Back in the university newsgroups there was a running joke to say "onneksi ääkköset eivät ole enää ongelma" ("fortunately <the accented characters in the Finnish alphabet> are no longer an issue"), every time they in fact were an issue, which they had been with a steady frequency for decades.
09:55:33 <fizzie> (fi:aakkoset = en:alphabet, so people use "ääkköset" to refer to the non-English parts.)
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11:15:46 <HackEso> ympyrkeämme lojuvallanne imaamistani saansaanjohtamaustani uurtumaavanaan purjoita radallemäksyttä viertämilleni kohtaisemmissaaverkeamme jeenpaikaamin
11:16:07 <fizzie> Some bots[who?][weasel words] seem to think it's unnecessary.
11:17:13 <shachaf> Huh, I never thought about the fact that sorting networks don't need decidable equality between elements.
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11:26:00 <shachaf> So you can sort real numbers for example.
11:26:43 <int-e> Yeah, I didn't get the point that the outputs may be represented differently from the inputs.
11:28:55 <int-e> the program computing min(a,b) can be different from the program computing a and the program computing b.
11:29:02 <int-e> (in fact, it has to be different in some cases)
11:30:35 <shachaf> Oh, you mean you might have a different converging sequence or something
11:31:42 <shachaf> But you can also sort lists of streams, where that isn't true
11:31:46 <int-e> My confusion was that I thought that the output of a sorting network is a permutation of the inputs, and I didn't see how that could be subverted.
11:31:53 <shachaf> (And you still don't have decidable equality)
11:32:14 <int-e> shachaf: no, the same is true for streams
11:33:22 <int-e> I'm taking an intensional perspective here. If this were Haskell I would be looking at the thunks.
11:33:32 <shachaf> I guess that depends on how you represent them
11:33:38 <int-e> Which a pure program cannot observe.
11:34:00 <shachaf> This was the confusion I had too, which is why this was surprising
11:35:10 <shachaf> So programs that use decidable equality are getting more information in a sense than sorting networks are
11:35:54 <shachaf> Can they do the sort in fewer comparisons?
11:36:13 <shachaf> I think I've asked a similar question before, about <=>
11:41:11 <shachaf> Also what happens when you use a sorting network on a lattice?
11:41:44 <shachaf> Where the swap operation computes inf and sup
11:45:41 <shachaf> Hmm, also neat: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/25485/does-the-0-1-principle-apply-to-merge-networks
11:55:02 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm, sorting networks are meaningful for distributive lattices. For arbitrary lattices, different sorting network may give different results: https://paste.debian.net/1026562/
11:58:04 <int-e> Will the output always be sorted even in an arbitrary lattice? I don't know.
11:58:55 <int-e> (assuming one uses a sorting network that is valid for total orders)
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12:34:07 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'd like sorting functions (in libraries) and sorted search trees that guarantee to work for non-transitive comparison operators too, in the sense that they don't segfault or otheriwse run into undefined behavior, don't lose or duplicate items, and
12:35:11 <wob_jonas> if you can divide the input set to a lower and a higher part such that the comparison function compares each item of the lower part as less than each item of the upper part, then the sorter function will sort each of the items of the lower part before each item of the upper part, and the search tree will find an item in the lower part if you search
12:37:15 <wob_jonas> You can imagine that as if you made a new comparison function that is actually transitive and antisymmetric, and whenever it says an item is less than the other, then the original (non-transitive comparison function) also say the first item is less than the second; and then the sort and search tree must behave as if you sorted by the new comparison
12:37:15 <wob_jonas> function, but they can sort equal elements in any way.
12:38:06 <wob_jonas> This would be useful so that if you want to run untrusted code in a sandbox, and that code wants to sort with a custom comparison function, you still get meaningful results. Also useful for trusted but buggy comparison functions.
12:39:01 <wob_jonas> Most search trees and sort functions actually satisfy that, but a few don't, notably very old versions of perl had a sort function that can segfault for an inconsistent comparison function. (Current perl still has some problems with sorting, but not to the segfault levels.)
12:39:45 <wob_jonas> So for some libraries, including the C++ standard library and the rust standard library, it's quite possible that all the library authors had to do was to write this as a guarantee in the docs for future compatibility, without changing a line of the actual code.
12:40:07 <wob_jonas> (I'll have to look at the details of some of the libraries to check if that's true.)
12:41:12 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: for C++ it could vary between implementations
12:41:25 <Vorpal> I seem to remember at least one std::sort that is a modified quicksort
12:41:38 <Vorpal> and one that was insertion sort based
12:42:36 <Vorpal> I'm* pretty sure your comparison function is supposed to produce a consistent ordering according to most language specifications and documentation
12:42:37 <wob_jonas> And when sqlite had the wrong comparison function, it did lose an item after all (but it still didn't segfault, which is nice).
12:42:47 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: yes, and that's the problem, or so I say.
12:43:02 <wob_jonas> The language specs shouldn't make that requirement.
12:43:19 <Vorpal> I think you are doing it wrong if int strcmp(char* a, char* b) { return random(); }
12:44:05 <Vorpal> I don't see the use for supporting something like that
12:45:49 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: yes it is probably useful to ensure it doesn't crash (for the sandbox case), but apart from that? Eh
12:47:52 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: also what do you think of languages like Python that provides a key function as opposed to a comparison function to the sort method?
12:48:16 <Vorpal> though I guess you could still overide __cmp__ or something like that on your type instead
12:48:26 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: the key function is a nice convenience, but sometimes you find it's not enough
12:49:28 <wob_jonas> Unless of course you can define custom comparison functions on your own types and use them as a key, but in that case you have the original problem of non-transitive user-defined comparison functions.
12:50:07 <Vorpal> hm it does have __ge__, __gt__, __lt__ and so on
12:50:19 <Vorpal> __cmp__ was apparently a python 2 thing
12:50:46 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: which apart from "don't crash from inside sandbox" I maintain isn't a problem
12:51:05 <Vorpal> could you elucidate why it is useful to support it?
12:51:36 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: maybe I've just seen too many buggy comparison functions. some are still out there and cause surprising bugs (though not segfaults most of the time)
12:52:14 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: but mostly I'm saying this because many of those functions could guarantee this freely, because the implementation already satisfies the stonger guarantee, just doesn't document it;
12:52:41 <Vorpal> possibly it should in fact raise some sort of exception if it detects that the comparison method is inconsistent, but I think it is bad to just quietly accept it
12:52:44 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: and some languages like haskell and rust and perl are already striving for the goal that they don't segfault when you write bad code unless you do certain unsafe things,
12:53:27 <Vorpal> because then the list is possibly not sorted as you intended and you might not notice it
12:53:48 <wob_jonas> plus in some of them you can also have values that aren't copiable, so it's likely already either impossible for the sort function to duplicate a value, or else it actually breaks the language guarantees if it does duplicate a value;
12:54:32 <wob_jonas> plus doing a wrong sort where an item is duplicated or lost can already cause security bugs or segfaults in user code that uses the result.
12:54:38 <Vorpal> how will uncopyable (or unmovable) values ever work with a sort function?
12:55:04 <wob_jonas> "possibly it should in fact raise some sort of exception if it detects that the comparison method is inconsistent, but I think it is bad to just quietly accept it " => perhaps, but you can't really strive for that, because in general it's impossible to check that the comparison function is consistent
12:55:04 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: sorting incorrectly can also lead to security bugs
12:55:19 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: they're still movable or swappable, just not copiable
12:55:45 <Vorpal> so it's like ConcurrentModificationException in java, it reports that on a best effort
12:56:23 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: even even trying to detect a bad sort function would likely make performance worse, or at least you'd have to change the code of the sort function
12:56:38 <wob_jonas> but just making the stronger guarantee is actually free in half of the functions, so you should just do it there
12:57:06 <wob_jonas> that would also make it clear by contrast where it's not guaranteed and where you can get segfaults
12:57:28 <wob_jonas> hmm, I should check if perl's numeric sort is actually buggy in the way I think it is, and report a proper bug if it is
12:57:44 <wob_jonas> because I think it does use an inconsistent function and that can cause security problems
12:57:54 <Vorpal> a wild idea though: Have a type or annotation system strong enough to be able to express contracts like "this is a sort function", then enforce running quickcheck like tests on functions that end up being used that way
12:58:02 <Vorpal> as part of the build process
12:58:03 <wob_jonas> so I should test that for myself, and report if it's bad, or convince myself that it's correct if it is correct
12:58:26 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: quickcheck functions aren't enough when sort functions can be wrong in very sneaky ways
12:58:54 <wob_jonas> there's a good reason why that sort bug I found in sqlite wasn't found for so many years, despite that it's been present
12:59:08 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: anyway, an incorrect ordering could still lead to bad bugs, even if elements aren't duplicated or lost
12:59:58 <wob_jonas> and some of those bugs are bugs that programmers should learn to avoid, which is a different thing we should spread to them
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13:03:39 <wob_jonas> And sure, for those few functions where it wouldn't be easy to guarantee the behavior for wrong sort functions, yes, keep them and document that. There are really those algorithms.
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14:11:38 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: ah yes. now I'm getting the GPDR spam, from websites I haven't used for ages and where it's not even clear why they even try to collect data:
14:14:22 <wob_jonas> in particular from (or in the name of) ARM, who ask to register on their site before you can download the technical reference manuals of their product, a completely ridiculous requirement
14:56:46 <fizzie> The ARM thing is terrible.
14:57:21 <fizzie> NVIDIA had something similar around CUDA SDKs. (Just got their GDPR spam the other day.)
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15:17:37 <Vorpal> gitlab was interesting, got a mail I had to accept their TOS again before I could continue using the service, blocking me at login.
15:17:46 <Vorpal> not explaining what they changed
15:18:12 <Vorpal> there should be a law that you must publish a diff
16:08:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: and there's https://www2.opengroup.org/ogsys/catalog/t101
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16:43:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55341&oldid=55338 * Soaku * (+11) Added Pepe
16:46:04 <zzo38> Another possibility for font encoding would be for the high byte of the font encoding to match the byte used after ESC ( to select that character set. Due to some things it is not work exactly, but it is close. That also allows you to define additional character sets.
16:47:42 <zzo38> (This also enables access to some of the characters that are not available in Unicode. When Unicode is selected, a different font would be used.)
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16:56:14 <Vorpal> zzo38: isn't the point of unicode to have all characters?
16:58:21 <zzo38> Maybe, but it doesn't. Unicode is a mess anyways. (Furthermore, the X core font system can't even properly implement astral characters; I have suggested how to fix this by use of a EnableLigatures flag, though)
17:06:08 <Vorpal> zzo38: who uses X server font rendering these days though? I thought every modern program rendered text client side, using freetype, pango and so on
17:06:30 <Vorpal> also, X will be replaced by wayland within a few years
17:08:44 <Vorpal> so do I, but I bet it will only be for a couple more years
17:11:55 <zzo38> I do not intend to replace it; I still want to use xterm and bitmap fonts and Xaw and so on
17:12:55 <Vorpal> eh, there will be xwayland to run X programs under wayland
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17:13:53 <zzo38> Will Wayland even work without a desktop environment installed like X does?
17:15:14 <zzo38> X also supports a default background stipple (although you need the -retro option, but I think it should be the default); I don't know if Wayland requires a full picture instead
17:15:38 <Vorpal> you could just take a picture of it?
17:16:06 <zzo38> I could, but it just takes up a lot of memory
17:16:41 <Vorpal> also it is rather ugly I think
17:17:05 <Vorpal> anyway I assume you can run with a window manager in wayland
17:18:12 <zzo38> I don't know if it supports window managers like X does because I haven't checked
17:18:52 <zzo38> And it isn't ugly; it is good. There is also the X cursor shapes, I don't think Wayland supports that either
17:21:19 <zzo38> (You probably can use larger cursors instead, and I like the small monochrome ones)
17:22:01 <zzo38> (There is also X resource manager, although you can use that independently of X.)
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17:24:10 <wob_jonas> "<Vorpal> X will be replaced by wayland within a few years" => I don't believe that. Most of the things people say about wayland aren't actually valid advantages over X.
17:24:39 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: the part about X server-side font rendering versus in-client pango mapped stuff is more valid of course.
17:24:55 <zzo38> Yes and I agree; I think most of them are disadvantages over X.
17:25:30 <zzo38> I wonder if there is a way to run Wayland programs in X so that you can use a X window manager with Wayland programs.
17:27:46 <zzo38> The bitmap fonts used by X look better, especially at small sizes.
17:27:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm especially annoyed by the supposed security advantages that wayland would have if you use untrusted clients, because those are literally impossible
17:28:35 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: several of the devs working on X say it is an unmaintainable code base
17:29:00 <Vorpal> also it is not secure at all, one program can easily read input for another program
17:29:13 <zzo38> You could use a proxy server for security
17:29:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's not a good excuse, because the client-side font rendering pipeline (freetype, fontconfig, pango, ...) can render X bitmap fonts among other formats, it's just that the fontconfig settings have an option that is set to hide them by default on some distributions.
17:30:20 <wob_jonas> "<Vorpal> also it is not secure at all, one program can easily read input for another program" => that's the claim that annoys me, when people want their flashy half-transparent borderless overlay toolbar windows, and at the same time they try to pretend that it's somehow clear to the user which program he's giving input to.
17:30:50 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I hate semi-transparent, it just makes it harder to read everything
17:31:25 <zzo38> I have made some ideas about how to make X version 12, which compared with version 11 incorporates some features of extensions in core (such as XkbBell) and drops most of the other ones, as well as add some other stuff (such as the EnableLigatures flag for font loading, the ExtensionControl request, and HoldAndModify visuals).
17:31:52 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: but look at for example the XTEST extension (used legitimately mostly)
17:32:50 <zzo38> Unlike X11, the first byte of the X12 protocol is always "X", so you can easily implement both versions on the same server for compatibility if you want to do.
17:33:05 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: but if things like snaps or other generic prepackaged app formats are to succeed you need to be able to limit access and have security boundaries, like for example Android does. Yes an app can request being able to see other apps, and the used should be informed to be able to determine if it is legitimate
17:33:45 <zzo38> Vorpal: Then perhaps you should use proxy servers like I suggested, then.
17:33:50 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: that barely works in practice even on android, and android runs apps in full-screen, and even there an app could mimic the interface of another app to confuse the user.
17:34:28 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: it can mimic, can't read input sent to another program though
17:35:06 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: right. but that gets much more confused if you don't have all apps in full-screen all the time, but in windows.
17:35:46 <Vorpal> does it though, now that android allows PiP as well as split-screen
17:37:58 <Vorpal> anyway, if the X code base is considered unmaintainable by the people who develop it, then something clearly needs to be done. They have selected to begin a new project, and are probably going to leave X behind, not develop new features for it, and eventually stop supporting it at all. Sure, it is open source so someone else can pick it up, but I doubt that will happen (beyond some enterprise distro keeping it alive with security
17:37:58 <Vorpal> fixes for another 5-10 years)
17:39:24 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I don't see what X does better than wayland inherently (as opposed to things that it currently does better due to being more mature)
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17:48:05 <esowiki> [[Totally Accurate Malbolge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55342&oldid=41794 * Kaa-kun * (+0)
17:48:36 <esowiki> [[Totally Accurate Malbolge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55343&oldid=55342 * Kaa-kun * (+0) more caps
17:49:08 <HackEso> aglist 593,594,595: b_jonas shachaf
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18:31:44 <shachaf> int-e: So you can think of the intensional and extensional perspective of the same lattice, as you mentioned above
18:33:37 <shachaf> if A,C are indistinguishable then that sorting algorithm produces the same result on the extensional total order.
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22:15:44 <esowiki> [[Along and Across]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55344&oldid=55340 * Challenger5 * (+303)
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23:34:48 <zzo38> Should they add a "goto case" and "goto default" commands into C?
23:35:40 <zzo38> (The "goto case" is followed by a numeric expression, which does not have to be constant; then it can check which case (which is constant) is matching, or default if there isn't any match)
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23:49:07 <fungot> boily: mhm noise ' cause i was getting a little juicier well
23:49:15 <boily> fungot: oh yeah juicy.
23:49:15 <fungot> boily: and uh i don't know i think
23:49:43 <boily> @tell oerjan bonsϿirjan. a little song: https://youtu.be/4vgcYBwyw28
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00:41:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55345&oldid=55291 * The Piper * (+62) /* Introductions */
00:42:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55346&oldid=55345 * The Piper * (+24) /* Introductions */
00:43:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55347&oldid=55346 * The Piper * (+2) /* Introductions */
00:44:00 <esowiki> [[LOLCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55348&oldid=49194 * The Piper * (+116) /* External resources */
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01:37:40 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 47m 56s ago: bonsϿirjan. a little song: https://youtu.be/4vgcYBwyw28
01:43:05 <HackEso> xkcdwhatiflist 157: oerjan b_jonas Taneb
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02:38:25 <esowiki> [[Along and Across]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55349&oldid=55344 * Oerjan * (+4) /* External Links */ Standard section name
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04:36:40 <zzo38> How should I implement for/next loops in Free Hero Mesh? There are two things to consider which is what sequence of VM instructions to generate and how to execute those VM instructions.
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06:42:53 <zzo38> Simply reversing the direction of program flow in BackFlip does not reverse the program (due to how the mirrors are working). So, a variant might be to use rotators instead, or fixed mirrors, etc
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07:03:35 <oerjan> zzo38: you can just flip all the mirrors when reversing, i think
07:06:06 <oerjan> unless you are standing on one, but then it's a bit confusing
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07:07:40 <Vorpal> I think I just invented another language by reading about BackFlip
07:08:13 <Vorpal> a related but less minimalistic language, more like a rube goldberg language in ASCII. Will have to think about it some
07:11:08 <Vorpal> For example -, and | are electrical wires that connect various devices. Similarly ~ is a string that can be pulled (not sure what the vertical version of that would be). "(" would be used for wire crossing
07:12:21 <Vorpal> = would be some kind of detector for an object passing passing through it horizontally
07:12:59 <Vorpal> o would be a wheel or bearing that a string could turn around, maybe?
07:12:59 <zzo38> oerjan: I know, but I meant without doing stuff like that.
07:13:23 <Vorpal> hm, I wonder if a language like that already exists
07:14:27 <Vorpal> https://esolangs.org/wiki/RUBE kind of same paradigm, but not quite the same
07:24:12 <Vorpal> ooh came up with yet another language while reading a phrase from the REDGREEN description ("simulates a physical world"). What about square-tiled RPG-like world where actors have simple AIs (kill other faction, flip nearest switch, stuff like that), that does computation as the actors interact with the world
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07:53:30 <Vorpal> I wonder if I should make the rube goldberg style language context sensitive, i.e. the same character can mean different things depending on if it is in a wire or in another context
08:07:44 <Vorpal> here is an early draft for the language: https://gist.github.com/VorpalBlade/da11e5909eb0e379f6980f5a08a2567c
08:07:49 <Vorpal> No idea if it is TC or not
08:08:12 <Vorpal> I think you could perhaps set up things such that they terminate/don't terminate
08:18:37 <Vorpal> you could at least make decisions by pushing or pulling a mirror in/out of the path of a particle
08:20:45 <Vorpal> I guess you could add I/O by having 0 and 1 be particle targets that generate that digit when hit or something like that. As for input have a conditional particle source { generating 1 particle on any key press
08:25:28 <Vorpal> yep, happy with that as an optional I/O extension
08:25:37 <Vorpal> updated the gist above
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09:07:24 <Vorpal> Added some very basic code examples
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09:52:02 <int-e> fungot: what do you think of the gdpr?
09:52:02 <fungot> int-e: yeah i think they just want more and more at night by themselves so we they wanted his they wanted us to change our votes and noise get out of it
09:53:20 <int-e> hey if the GDPR means we'll get proper websites (plain HTML, no scripts) like https://text.npr.org/ then I'm all for it :)
09:58:41 <Vorpal> int-e: would you like to take a look at https://gist.github.com/VorpalBlade/da11e5909eb0e379f6980f5a08a2567c as a language draft. I'm looking for input to improve it. I have no what computational class it has for example.
09:59:02 <Vorpal> non-trivial I think, but I'm not sure how to test it
09:59:17 <Vorpal> I'll put it on the wiki later when i decided on some of the TODO items
10:01:04 <int-e> in principle yes, but probably not this weekend, I'm wrestling with a couple of deadlines.
10:02:12 <int-e> in fact I just emailed myself a reminder ;-)
10:03:11 <Vorpal> yeah I won't start implementing it for a while at least
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11:40:39 <arseniiv> hi. Does @messages show mentions of your name or some other stuff?
11:40:55 <fizzie> It shows messages explicitly sent by @tell or @ask.
11:41:05 <fizzie> @tell arseniiv something useful
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11:48:25 <Vorpal> do you have time to take a look at this? https://gist.github.com/VorpalBlade/da11e5909eb0e379f6980f5a08a2567c
11:50:38 <fizzie> I'll add a reminder as well. ;) Just on my way out now.
11:51:00 <fizzie> @tell fizzie to look at that
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12:03:54 <arseniiv> fizzie: thank you, a nice mechanism, I’ll use it from now
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12:05:47 <arseniiv> Vorpal: (if you’re interested in my opinion also) this is an interesting thing, but I don’t quite understand the thing with strings
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12:15:50 <Vorpal> arseniiv: ah, what bit don't you understand about them? It is like a physical string, being pulled between wheels, like thread on a sewing machine
12:16:05 <Vorpal> but yes I'm interested in all feedbac
12:16:51 <Vorpal> though it is heavily abstracted
12:18:31 <arseniiv> Vorpal: at first I thought a wheel is used to rotate a string (as a pulley). Now I seem to understand a string is attached to it in a kind of a coil, right?
12:18:31 <arseniiv> may I suggest an extension in which there are boxes and conveyor belts moving them in various directions depending on from what side they are pulled or signaled (if from both sides, a conveyor will not move). Some boxes could be conducting. If a box is moved off the belt, it could hop to an adjacent belt, if there is one, or stay in place, if there’s no other belts nearby. Also there can be box stacks… I’ll expand this idea a bit later to a gist
12:19:11 <Vorpal> arseniiv: it does both really, depending on if it is at the end (with a motor) or if it is freestanding
12:19:36 <Vorpal> arseniiv: that sounds very similar to https://esolangs.org/wiki/RUBE
12:19:45 <Vorpal> the box and conveyor thing
12:20:35 <Vorpal> but yes a wheel is currently both a pully and something to coil up infinite thread on
12:20:51 <Vorpal> in this level of abstraction it doesn't make a difference I think
12:21:50 <arseniiv> it does both really, depending on if it is at the end (with a motor) or if it is freestanding => ah, got it. FTR I think more examples would be nice!
12:22:34 <Vorpal> also I just realised that it should be called motor in English if it is electric, right? as opposed to engine which runs on fuel
12:22:47 <Vorpal> same word for both in Swedish
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12:24:15 <arseniiv> my idea about crates is simplistic, I think it will have not much in common with RUBE
12:26:29 <arseniiv> about “motor” in English: IDK, I’m not a native too, let’s hear from others
12:27:29 <Vorpal> pretty sure I heard this at work (and I work on machines that can have either engines or motors)
12:28:19 <Vorpal> added another example at the end
12:33:02 <Vorpal> you could maybe combine electrical and mechanical wire/strings, and be able to pull wires instead
12:36:19 <Vorpal> And now I added that as an extension
12:44:09 <Vorpal> And I added support for listing in the file which extensions are needed
12:45:57 <Vorpal> arseniiv: looking forward to seeing your ideas for conveyors as well
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13:48:40 <arseniiv> Vorpal: https://gist.github.com/arseniiv/ee52c8c152e1cdec3e63f7820bf23b5d
13:49:02 <arseniiv> I hope examples clear out what I had in mind :D
13:49:48 <Vorpal> arseniiv: hm ! conflicts with the letter I added for the directive to specify extensions required at the start of the file, but I could easily change that
13:52:01 <Vorpal> arseniiv: indeed I'll use the any character by pressing the any key ;)
13:52:14 <arseniiv> indeed I'll use the any character by pressing the any key ;) => *rofl*
13:52:49 <Vorpal> I like it, but how do you plan to specify different types of boxes?
13:53:28 <Vorpal> Also, a goal is that the language should be easy to type on a Swedish keyboard (which is why I use ¤, it is shift-4 for me)
13:53:56 <Vorpal> which kind of looks like a multi-phase motor to me
13:56:46 <arseniiv> there are many letters still not in use, and even if it should look box-like. E. g. O, U, W, M, H are all kinda blocky
13:58:16 <Vorpal> I can't support a file starting with #! though, since I want to support unix style #!/path/to/interpreter
13:59:29 <arseniiv> maybe # should be changed into something else, too
13:59:47 <Vorpal> so yeah I'll use # for marking that as well as leading comments and directives. Should you need a # at the start of the line just move the entire program one space inwards
14:00:03 <Vorpal> so yes # can still be used in code, just not on the first line of the file
14:03:45 <Vorpal> I'm starting to suspect the language may be TC (even without your extension). I can come up with a way to represent memory for example. Not infinite random access memory, but something closer to the delay lines of yore
14:04:49 <Vorpal> Though there are issues injecting new data into it
14:05:10 <Vorpal> a semi-transparent mirror like object may be needed, not sure
14:06:37 <arseniiv> could there be some voltage arithmetic? You showed how to divide by 5
14:07:24 <Vorpal> I suspect that fixed division by 5 is the only possible way to reduce voltage
14:07:45 <Vorpal> And I'm not sure you can detect the magnitude to conditionally divide
14:08:10 <Vorpal> Actually I think you could
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14:08:44 <Vorpal> a detector + some motors and strings to pull mirrors and such to take different paths depending on how much the mirror was pulled (or not)
14:09:25 <Vorpal> I think you could at least determine the closest floored 5-volt multiple
14:09:52 <Vorpal> but it would be a rather large program
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14:40:12 <Vorpal> Well I invented delay line memory for this anyway
14:40:41 <Vorpal> arseniiv: added another example for that at the end
14:41:55 <Vorpal> Now I'm wondering about gates
14:47:21 <Vorpal> okay I figured out AND gate
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14:49:48 <Vorpal> not sure about NOT, OR or anything useful like NAND
14:50:06 <Vorpal> well, actually or, if you don't care about output voltage is easy
14:50:19 <Vorpal> which I do for my AND gate
14:52:20 <arseniiv> BTW is Minecraft redstone trickery considered an esolang?
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14:53:49 <Vorpal> arseniiv: I think it is too easy and smiliar to actual hardware logic circuits to be an esolang
14:55:07 <Vorpal> but yeah I don't know how to do NOT or OR
14:57:59 <Vorpal> maybe if you run on a clock you could break a connection then unbreak it as needed. Maybe
14:58:24 <Vorpal> And OR is trivial if you don't care about signal levels (which my AND gate does)
15:02:17 <zzo38> Maybe you should support ASCII currency symbol too, so that it can be used with ASCII
15:03:00 <zzo38> (In addition to the generic currency symbol, with the same meaning, I suppose)
15:03:07 <Vorpal> zzo38: nope, not doing that
15:03:17 <Vorpal> why would I want to limit myself to ASCII
15:03:37 <zzo38> So that it can be used on non-Swedish computers.
15:04:00 <Vorpal> it can be used by there is no good symbol for a motor on a US keyboard that I know of
15:04:05 <zzo38> (It could be an extension)
15:04:07 <Vorpal> also ASCII has no generic currency symbol
15:04:39 <zzo38> Those things are true
15:05:32 <Vorpal> maybe something on altgr?
15:06:00 <zzo38> But an extension could define some other ASCII character to mean a motor, when that extension is enabled (and ASCII does have a currency symbol, also called a dollar sign; it isn't a generic currency symbol but GURPS uses it as such)
15:06:05 <Vorpal> But yes, a symbol available on US keyboards would be nice
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15:06:55 <Vorpal> zzo38: I was thinking of using $ for something else earlier except that it requires altgr on Swedish keyboard, but so does {[]} and those are in use already so, eh
15:07:20 <zzo38> Possibly M for motor or possibly * or %
15:07:35 <Vorpal> What is the reason for % ?
15:07:45 <Vorpal> I don't see how it looks like a motor
15:08:03 <zzo38> It doesn't really; just in case M and * are already used
15:08:54 <Vorpal> yeah I think I like the idea of M
15:12:52 <zzo38> You could require "#@ exts: ascii" or "#@ charset: ascii" if wanted, or just support both characters always.
15:16:03 <zzo38> Other than that your document looks OK to me
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15:22:02 <Celular> https://i.imgur.com/k0GKLzw.png
15:22:10 <Celular> i need to know what language is that
15:24:58 <Vorpal> I added some ideas for gates to the gist
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15:25:17 <Vorpal> ( https://gist.github.com/VorpalBlade/da11e5909eb0e379f6980f5a08a2567c for the benefit of the newcomer)
15:25:54 <Vorpal> Celular: not familiar with that one. Looks a bit like befunge
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15:26:18 <Vorpal> Celular: are you sure it is an esolang?
15:26:47 <Vorpal> yeah no it isn't befunge, the IP would move very silly if it was
15:27:36 <Celular> i found it in a riddle, so i'm not sure about anything, but maybe is an esolang, with some... trick
15:28:05 <Vorpal> bit of it looks like brainfuck but then the [ and ] should be balanced, which is not the case here
15:28:24 <Vorpal> also ° and ¯ are quite unusual
15:32:28 <zzo38> That new version of the document looks OK to me
15:33:11 <Vorpal> zzo38: you still need unicode for the pistons except in the up direction
15:33:38 <Vorpal> but that isn't writable on any standard keyboard
15:33:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Along and Across]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55350 * Plokmijnuhby * (+336) Created page with "This looks suspiciously like the minimisation operator in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-recursive_function -recursive functions]. I don't fully understand -recursive f..."
15:36:37 <zzo38> Yes, but maybe you can rearrange the program in order to avoid needing the other direction
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15:39:39 <Vorpal> well, probably, or use strings, but that has higher delay due to switching phases
15:55:21 <Vorpal> yeah okay I think this has functional completeness.
15:58:43 <Vorpal> does it even evaluate print?
15:58:48 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
15:59:08 <int-e> > undefined :: IO ()
15:59:09 <Vorpal> lazy evaluation and not evaluating IO
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16:35:46 <arseniiv> int-e: for some reason I thought @run is the same as >
16:36:35 <Vorpal> well the result is the same
16:37:18 <arseniiv> I thought that it prints what is sent to stdout, not prints the value using `print`
16:37:44 <arseniiv> why I thought that, if I had seen the contraty
16:43:00 <Vorpal> arseniiv: so, two things: 1) going to extend your extension any further with different box types? 2) permission for me to incorporate it (with credits of course) in the main document? Probably won't happen before I put it up on the esolang wiki, which won't happen today at least. Maybe tomorrow
16:48:46 <Vorpal> for the second point, what is your user name on the wiki?
17:04:38 <arseniiv> Vorpal: oh, of course incorporate it
17:04:58 <arseniiv> for the second point, what is your user name on the wiki? => the same but with capital A
17:06:30 <Vorpal> As for computational class I'm suspecting it is not quite TC, I can't come up with a good way to access infinite memory (yes the voltage is bignum, but getting at that voltage in any meaningful way is hard). So it is probably an LBA.
17:07:08 <arseniiv> going to extend your extension any further with different box types? => hm, I don’t think I’ll think of something more, the thought about conductivity and particle reflection was immediate, but no more than that
17:09:29 <Vorpal> interesting idea, what are the mechanics around sticky boxes
17:10:05 <arseniiv> mhm… you could add particle colors and let boxes reflect some of them but not all. But IMO it will complicate things for no reason
17:10:08 <Vorpal> the problem with the box idea currently is that they don't interact that much with the rest of the language at the moment I think, apart from blocking particles, what else do they do?
17:10:32 <Vorpal> well, there is the particle charge idea as an extension I wrote, didn't really flesh out how it would work
17:11:02 <Vorpal> do belts block particles?
17:11:06 <Vorpal> I think they shouldn't
17:11:14 <Vorpal> otherwise what would the point of the boxes be
17:11:44 <arseniiv> apart from blocking particles, what else do they do? => if also taking away conductivity, IDK.
17:12:23 <arseniiv> oh yeah I forgot I thought belts shouldn’t block, indeed
17:12:25 <Vorpal> arseniiv: the thing is, I think a language like this, is a bit like a game. There is a reason something like Deus Ex or System Shock is so good: different systems interacting
17:12:41 <Vorpal> the more interactions, the better
17:13:35 <Vorpal> making it interact with electricity is good, making it do so in an interesting and novel way is better
17:14:08 <arseniiv> how about this: if a particle travels along the belt and hits a box on it, it makes belt move one step with all the other boxes too
17:14:23 <Vorpal> hm maybe I should make particles do something with string
17:15:40 <arseniiv> making it do so in an interesting and novel way is better => how about storing charge? If the box catches an impulse, it doesn’t travel further and is stored, next time if that box doesn’t catch anything, it emits what was stored, if any
17:16:03 <Vorpal> so it delays by one turn?
17:17:10 <Vorpal> what about it storing a charge, and when it gets moved next time, it emits it (since the particle is "shaken loose") XD
17:17:23 <arseniiv> I ate ice cream a hour ago and I think there should be an ice cream
17:17:47 <Vorpal> should it be the same direction? Random? Reflect?
17:17:57 <Vorpal> and should it be emitted before or after the move?
17:18:16 <Vorpal> I do not know the answers to these questions
17:19:12 <Vorpal> I think the "shaken loose" level of absurdity (if you think in context of an elementary particle) is the right sort of humor for this language
17:19:41 <arseniiv> I do not know the answers to these questions => neither do I, this is an experimental matter maybe. Try one, then other, and what makes more interesting things should win
17:20:25 <Vorpal> sure, I likely won't make an implementation for at least several months, and then I suspect it would be a rather slow and dumb python one
17:20:51 <Vorpal> but you can always execute it in your head of course
17:21:17 <arseniiv> I think the "shaken loose" level of absurdity (if you think in context of an elementary particle) is the right sort of humor for this language => someone could even make a movie of it :D
17:21:17 <Vorpal> random probably isn't very interesting
17:21:38 <Vorpal> arseniiv: um? reference I'm not getting? I don't watch many movies
17:22:04 <arseniiv> people like to make movies on popular games these days
17:22:14 <arseniiv> like Angry Birds or something :D
17:22:16 <Vorpal> oh right, aren't they all terrible though?
17:26:38 <Vorpal> arseniiv: okay, here is how I think the charge storage should work: emitted from the *moved* location in a predictable direction
17:26:58 <Vorpal> think it will be more interesting, since you can then detect which direction it was moved in
17:27:35 <Vorpal> also if it is blocked from actually moving (by the belt being full for example), should it still shake loose? Maybe, that allows you to detect not moving at all
17:29:12 <Vorpal> arseniiv: so a wheel at the end of a conveyor always moves the conveyor in the direction of that wheel, right?
17:29:39 <Vorpal> since the language does not track direction of rotation (though it could with the charge extension perhaps)
17:31:14 <Vorpal> but that causes issues with determining how to unwind string, string is not exactly rigid
17:33:03 <arseniiv> Vorpal: so a wheel at the end of a conveyor always moves the conveyor in the direction of that wheel, right? => exactly. But if it will lead to inconveniences, they could push in other direcrions instead
17:33:38 <arseniiv> I thought the direction to that end is more logical, though
17:34:26 <Vorpal> fair enough, either works, as long as it is consistent
17:34:42 <arseniiv> (and I didn’t even thought about rotation, the language’s abstraction had already got me at that time :D )
17:35:36 <Vorpal> and I thought long and hard about direction of rotation, would allow some interesting stuff with placing wheels next to each other, like cogs
17:36:00 <Vorpal> but I lacked a good way to integrate it in the rest of the mechanics
17:36:35 <Vorpal> such as how to decide which direction the motor should be driven in
17:36:50 <Vorpal> and again, how to handle unwinding string
17:39:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Joshop * New user account
17:41:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55351&oldid=55347 * Joshop * (+123) Introduction
17:50:45 <esowiki> [[@text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55352&oldid=39655 * Soaku * (-382) Improved formatting
17:54:17 <Vorpal> @text looks like a trivial chiper of the input as opposed to an interesting language, am I missing something?
17:54:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: thx tell let leet
17:54:27 <Vorpal> no I didn't mean any of those
17:57:38 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell language extension is not enabled. Please add ...
17:57:56 <arseniiv> it seems I could not create universes just yet
17:58:43 <Vorpal> also that python implementation of @text is not very compact
18:04:02 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55353 * Joshop * (+2059) A stack based bit based programming language
18:04:21 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55354&oldid=55353 * Joshop * (+1)
18:04:55 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55355&oldid=55354 * Joshop * (+2)
18:07:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55356&oldid=55341 * Joshop * (+13)
18:09:01 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55357&oldid=55355 * Joshop * (+119)
18:09:38 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55358&oldid=55357 * Joshop * (-2)
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18:14:17 <esowiki> [[Pepe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55359&oldid=54243 * Soaku * (+166)
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18:31:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55360&oldid=55356 * Arseniiv * (+18) /* Y */ YEOOIIOOIOA?
18:35:26 <Vorpal> arseniiv: is that cat program POSIX cat? Or just STDIN -> STDOUT?
18:35:34 <Vorpal> I wrote POSIX cat in befunge some time ago
18:36:06 <arseniiv> Or just STDIN -> STDOUT? => this one
18:38:50 <arseniiv> gtg, it’s almost midnight here. Wish you luck searching!
18:42:50 <Vorpal> it is 20:42 here, and still broad daylight. Fuck high latitudes.
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19:11:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Along and Across]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55361&oldid=55350 * Ais523 * (+758) not the same
19:21:38 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55362&oldid=55358 * Ais523 * (+950) /* Computational Class */ at least TC
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20:03:10 <Vorpal> so how on the wiki do I prevent ~~~ to expanding to the user name thingy, I need it in the code examples...
20:03:43 <zzo38> I think if you write <nowiki> it will not expand
20:04:06 <zzo38> You could also use the ASCII code number for the character you want
20:08:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55363&oldid=55351 * Vorpal * (-64357) Initial mediawikification of draft specification.
20:10:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55364&oldid=55363 * Vorpal * (-83)
20:11:06 <Vorpal> didn't work inside <pre> though
20:11:55 <zzo38> Then it might be a bug in MediaWiki
20:15:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55365&oldid=55364 * Vorpal * (-23)
20:16:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55366&oldid=55365 * Vorpal * (-2) /* String behaviour */
20:16:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55367&oldid=55366 * Vorpal * (-2) /* Gates */
20:17:44 <Vorpal> wait what, wrong page?
20:18:10 <esowiki> [[Perpetum Mobile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55368 * Vorpal * (+12778) New language
20:19:28 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 Managed to screw up the introduce yourself, and the wiki isn't letting me fix it. Please help?
20:20:14 <Vorpal> fizzie: maybe you are an admin and can fix it too?
20:25:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55369&oldid=55367 * Ais523 * (+64467) rv Vorpal: author request (Vorpal can't revert their edit themself due to the spam filter being particularly protective of this page)
20:26:27 <Vorpal> hm and I typoed the language page
20:26:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Vorpal * moved [[Perpetum Mobile]] to [[Perpetuum Mobile]]: Fix typo
20:26:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55372&oldid=55360 * Vorpal * (+23) /* P */ Adding Perpetuum Mobile
20:29:27 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 Would like you to take a look on this new Perpetuum Mobile language as well
20:34:34 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55373&oldid=55370 * Vorpal * (+2969) /* Belts and boxes (belts) */
20:36:53 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55374&oldid=55373 * Vorpal * (-45) Improve header strucuture
20:39:34 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55375&oldid=55374 * Vorpal * (+28)
20:41:33 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55376&oldid=55375 * Vorpal * (+127) /* Computational class */
20:43:25 <Vorpal> so how do I start a numerical list in mediawiki at 0?
20:44:44 <Vorpal> ugh, apparently I'd have to rewrite it in HTML. Think I'll pass
21:00:17 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55377&oldid=55376 * Vorpal * (+0) /* Gates */
21:09:14 -!- Guest78368 has changed nick to quintopia.
21:09:44 -!- quintopia has changed nick to Guest36995.
21:09:59 <Guest36995> it didn't give me a message about identifying. weird.
21:12:12 -!- Guest36995 has changed nick to quintopia.
21:23:52 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55378&oldid=55377 * Vorpal * (+669) /* Energy magnitude detection */
21:24:15 <Vorpal> Guest13947: services bugged out yesterday
21:24:35 <Vorpal> quintopia: also, see this new fancy esolang
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21:37:40 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55379&oldid=55378 * Vorpal * (+38) /* Computational class */
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22:21:48 <lambdabot> EGLL 262150Z 05010KT 9999 VCTS FEW060CB 20/15 Q1017 TEMPO 7000 TSRA BKN045
22:22:17 <fizzie> Thunderstorms and lightning.
22:28:38 <zzo38> I made up a Magic: the Gathering card: {2W} Enchantment - Saga ;; I, II, III--Create a 1/1 white Bird Warrior creature token with flying and banding. ;; IV--Target creature gets +0/+2 until end of turn.
22:54:51 <pikhq> I mean, yes, but it's still in the rules.
22:56:34 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55380&oldid=55362 * Joshop * (+28)
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23:18:51 <SoniEx2> are there 2 distinct self BCT programs that produce the same result?
23:20:45 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55381&oldid=55380 * Joshop * (+75)
23:21:35 <zzo38> I think banding is good anyways, but yes they no longer use it but I do. The rules still support it.
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00:26:35 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55382&oldid=55381 * Joshop * (+42)
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00:52:17 <SoniEx2> like, with normal bct, 0 and 00 always delete the same data
00:52:27 <SoniEx2> with self bct, 0 and 00 actually produce 0 and 00, respectively
00:52:52 <SoniEx2> is there a self-bct that produces the same result as another self-bct?
01:07:21 <pikhq> Not that familiar with BCT, honestly. Maybe?
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01:58:58 <esowiki> [[@text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55383&oldid=55352 * Oerjan * (-1) Removing newline that messes up Mediawiki's braindead diff
01:59:58 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55384&oldid=55335 * Digital Hunter * (+45)
02:25:27 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55385&oldid=55382 * Oerjan * (-25) Bold title, section headings
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02:44:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Perpetum Mobile]]": Misspelling
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04:18:19 <arseniiv> some esolang should definitely be called Σ:3
04:18:45 <shachaf> But there's already a person with that name.
04:19:32 <shachaf> I was wondering about that.
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06:25:27 <Vorpal> hm, why had my laptop suspended to RAM during the night, that isn't supposed to happen
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07:15:50 <Vorpal> arseniiv: extension idea: sub assemblies, that you can attach to letters and then insert them anywhere in the playing field (or other sub assemblies). Each sub-assembly can have 4 different connections (one per cardinal direction), that can be either a string, a wire or a particle
07:16:18 <Vorpal> sounds annoying to implement proper execution with respect to turn order for that though
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07:19:57 <Vorpal> should two instances of the same subassembly be copies or the same instance though?
07:20:31 <Vorpal> copies, and this is basically macros, same instance and it becomes very hard to ensure consistent behaviour
07:25:54 <Vorpal> arseniiv: what happens if a piston pushes a box off the conveyor?
07:26:04 <Vorpal> or a string pulls it off
07:30:36 <Vorpal> or a piston pushes a box off the end of a belt?
07:31:16 <Vorpal> because right now there is nothing a piston can't push, so what does two pistons simultaneously pushing each other do
07:48:16 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55386&oldid=55379 * Vorpal * (+154) /* Playing field elements */ Clarify and document undefined piston behaviour
07:53:50 <zzo38> In a sokoban game instead of drawing the figure of a man draw the figure of a kind of animal that could push the boxes but would not be able to pull or climb over or fly over the boxes.
07:56:57 <Vorpal> zzo38: or maybe the roof height is just too low to allow you to climb over? Or the blocks are too tall and slippery?
07:59:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Paradoctor * New user account
08:05:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55387&oldid=55369 * Paradoctor * (+134) /* Introductions */ +
08:05:51 <zzo38> Yes, that is the other way
08:12:45 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55388&oldid=55386 * Vorpal * (+1258) /* Sub assemblies (sub) */
08:13:31 <Vorpal> zzo38: or the guy is playing a game, with rules, and don't want to break them to avoid being disqualified?
08:18:03 <esowiki> [[User:Paradoctor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55389 * Paradoctor * (+87) info
08:18:27 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55390&oldid=55388 * Vorpal * (+91) /* Turn processing order */ Halting condition added
08:21:07 <Vorpal> I suspect that when I implement this language I will only implement the IO extension. At least to begin with
08:21:58 <zzo38> Of course that is already the case, regardless of the pictures.
08:23:39 <Vorpal> zzo38: yeah but I mean you are playing a guy who plays a game, as opposed to playing the game directly ;P
08:25:08 <zzo38> O, OK, if that is what you like
08:25:45 <Vorpal> i like meta stuff so, yeah
09:00:58 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55391&oldid=54332 * Paradoctor * (-74) /* Computational model */ it's the other way around: Thue systems are symmetric semi-Thue systems
09:09:05 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55392&oldid=55390 * Plokmijnuhby * (+566)
09:13:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55393&oldid=55274 * Vorpal * (+430) /* Perpetuum Mobile */ new section
09:16:53 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55394&oldid=55392 * Vorpal * (+226) /* Loops and splitting */ Added clarification on how energy (doesn't) split.
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09:38:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55395&oldid=55393 * Plokmijnuhby * (+517) /* Perpetuum Mobile */
09:58:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55396&oldid=55395 * Vorpal * (+237) /* Perpetuum Mobile */
09:58:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plokmijnuhby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55397&oldid=55396 * Vorpal * (+1) /* Perpetuum Mobile */
10:00:25 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55398&oldid=55394 * Vorpal * (-88) /* Scaling down energy */ Remove misinformed example.
10:03:51 <Vorpal> is it possible to construct a mechanism that moves infinitely far? You can push with pistons, and pull with strings, but I still don't see a way to make a self contained "glider" as it were
10:18:22 <arseniiv> Vorpal: should two instances of the same subassembly be copies or the same instance though? => I think copies, it’s easier to reason about and implement. E. g. what to do if one instance is pulled from the west and another isn’t?
10:19:04 <arseniiv> oh, you’ve already observed that
10:19:26 <Vorpal> arseniiv: hm, right, also pulling will be messy there, since if won't pull if it has a string connection on that side
10:19:43 <Vorpal> instead transferring the force into the sub assembly
10:22:05 <arseniiv> what happens if a piston pushes a box off the conveyor? => originally I thought boxes should be unable to move from conveyors, but maybe it could just sit in place if pushed/pulled from. We can even initialize such a standalone box in code—it just shouldn’t touch any belt from their corresponding directions
10:24:08 <Vorpal> you could use pistons to push between two conveyors!
10:38:20 <Vorpal> trying to think of a clean way to implement the language now, it is not a clean language, so that makes it harder
10:39:04 <Vorpal> think having dispatch tables per interaction type, keyed on entity type might work
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11:30:41 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55399&oldid=55398 * Vorpal * (+90) /* Scaling down energy */ Actually doesn't work like I thought, since energy is specified as buffered
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11:51:14 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> In a sokoban game [...] draw the figure of a kind of animal that could push the boxes but would not be able to pull or climb over or fly over the boxes." => that would be difficult, because you usually see domestic animals *pull* cargo with a harness on a cart or sled, or carry cargo on their back, rather then push cargo.
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12:13:04 <arseniiv> zzo38: wob_jonas: it may be a robot with perfectly spherical hands, so that it couldn’t grab anything but could push
12:13:33 <arseniiv> or it even could be spherical all by itself
12:14:42 <arseniiv> FTR there’s a game called Enigma utilizing mouse-controlled balls, and it has great many frustrating Sokoban-like levels
12:18:58 <arseniiv> IMO a perfect Enigma level (and a common one is pretty close to perfection here) combines need for extensive paper notes, impossible dexterity, an infinite table (mouse dances pretty far out there) and an ability to make/consult notes simultaneously with making crazy jigs with your mouse-wielding hand. IDK what kind of people are the game’s target audience
12:21:29 <int-e> sounds like a tool assistance target to me
12:28:41 <arseniiv> hm maybe those high-scorers are lent a robotic hand
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13:04:52 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: or the Monster in the Dark from ''The Order of the Stick'' (webcomic). He's better at pushing than pulling. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html
13:14:15 <Vorpal> Hm, I'm not convinced by Plokmijnuhby argument that Perpetuum Mobile is TC. I'm not sure you can actually usefully get at the bignum information.
13:15:43 <Vorpal> arseniiv: ooh, been years since I thought about that game (Enigma). Even longer since I played it
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13:21:10 <HackEso> 351) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
13:21:15 <HackEso> 876) <ais523> btw, I finally discovered what a burrito was, recently <ais523> they're kind of nice to eat <ais523> but don't really resemble monads
13:21:18 <HackEso> zzo38mtg//http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
13:21:29 <HackEso> 1/2:464) <elliott_> I hope in the future people curse me for creating such a shitty protocol. \ 1252) <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang \ 90) <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit \ 1084) <Bike> a dark day for all of humankind <zzo38> Bike: Wrong. Not all of humankind lives in the same timezone. <shachaf> a dark day for some of humankind <zzo38> OK \ 1053) <shachaf> Hmm, is an Electronic Signat
13:22:53 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55400&oldid=55399 * Vorpal * (+595) /* Sub assemblies (sub) */
13:23:41 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: e: not found
13:26:50 <wob_jonas> ``` for x in {1..255}; do type -p "$(perl -e 'print chr$ARGV[0]' $x)"; done
13:27:02 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/ \ /hackenv/bin/ \ /hackenv/bin/" \ /hackenv/bin/# \ /hackenv/bin/' \ /hackenv/bin/( \ /hackenv/bin/* \ /hackenv/bin/1 \ /hackenv/bin/2 \ /hackenv/bin/3 \ /hackenv/bin/4 \ /hackenv/bin/5 \ /hackenv/bin/? \ /hackenv/bin/@ \ /hackenv/bin/` \ /hackenv/bin/f \ /hackenv/bin/h \ /hackenv/bin/n \ /hackenv/bin/q \ /hackenv/bin/w
13:27:33 <HackEso> `# <comment>//`<command> is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn.
13:29:43 <wob_jonas> aha. bin/h is what produces the whelcohme output
13:29:54 <wob_jonas> whatever the name is of that command
13:30:17 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55401&oldid=55400 * Vorpal * (+615) /* String behaviour */ Improve and extend examples
13:30:29 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: so, looked at my new fancy esolang yet?
13:30:59 <Vorpal> hopefully it is interesting and at least somewhat original
13:31:02 <HackEso> bin/добро-пожаловать \ bin/wElCoMe \ bin/elcome \ bin/velkommen \ bin/welcome \ bin/välkommen \ bin/jrypbzr \ bin/velkomin \ bin/Welcome \ bin/WeLcOmE \ bin/tervetuloa \ bin/willkommen \ bin/welcome \ bin/wlcm \ bin/welkom \ bin/ozcome \ bin/bienvenue \ bin/autowelcome \ bin/bienvenido \ bin/wlcmr \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/ουελκομε \ bin/benvenuto \ bin/emoclew \ bin/relcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/WELCOME \ bin/zalgre
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13:33:09 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55402&oldid=55401 * Vorpal * (+95) /* Extensions */
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13:35:30 <arseniiv> hehe => that was about Monster in the Dark
13:35:57 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55403&oldid=55402 * Vorpal * (+144) /* File format */
14:07:16 <Vorpal> I'm out for a while, see you all later
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16:51:08 <HackEso> screwsss: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:52:57 <HackEso> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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16:56:54 <HackEso> HackEso: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:57:15 <HackEso> tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:57:18 <HackEso> Cale: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:57:22 <HackEso> GeekDude: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:57:26 <HackEso> joast: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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16:57:30 <HackEso> Lord_of_Life: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:58:16 <screwsss> well i can see a lots going on in here
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18:58:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Appinv * New user account
19:01:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55404&oldid=55387 * Appinv * (+161) /* Introductions */
19:05:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55405&oldid=55372 * Appinv * (+17) /* C */
19:20:14 <int-e> let's call it enthusiasm
19:21:47 <esowiki> [[Css Script]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55406 * Appinv * (+410) Created page with "Css script is a language created by Appinv to draw css shapes. it created in an attempt to solve the monthly challenges of creative club commands : fill black rect 1..."
19:24:34 <esowiki> [[Css Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55407&oldid=55406 * Appinv * (+76)
19:28:02 <esowiki> [[Css Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55408&oldid=55407 * Appinv * (-27) /* external resources */
19:28:31 <esowiki> [[Css Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55409&oldid=55408 * Appinv * (+1) /* external resources */
19:30:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55410&oldid=55405 * Appinv * (+17) /* G */
19:32:28 <esowiki> [[Css Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55411&oldid=55409 * Appinv * (+49)
19:42:09 <esowiki> [[GreenBerry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55412 * Appinv * (+482) Created page with "greenBerry is a one line statement language created by Abdur-rahmaan Janhangeer as an in-shell utility for python programs == commands == examples var x = 1 class Man..."
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20:02:44 <zzo38> When using 7-Zip to load a ELF executable file it has eight files numbered from 0 to 7. What does each of them mean? It says file 6 is empty, and file 2 is stored with a smaller size than the actual size (the rest use the actual size), what is that?
20:06:15 <Vorpal> zzo38: maybe they correspond to the sections listed by readelf -S
20:06:29 <Vorpal> though sampling some files on my system have way more than 8
20:06:55 <Vorpal> ah it could be the segments listed in readelf -l
20:07:02 <Vorpal> seem to have 8 of those
20:08:00 <Vorpal> don't think it is a particularly useful view that 7-zip gives you
20:08:31 <Vorpal> readelf and objdump are far superior tools for digging in ELF binaries
20:08:48 <Vorpal> there is also a nice ncurses-based hex editor/disassembler/code editor called "ht"
20:10:04 <int-e> hmm, here it gives me section names as "file names"
20:10:23 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1026828/
20:10:38 <int-e> (though tbh it would never have occurred to me to try that)
20:11:52 <zzo38> I would think that would be more useful, but on my computer it doesn't (it also displays "Characteristics = Executable file" instead of "Characteristics = Shared object file")
20:13:10 <int-e> /bin/ls: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, stripped
20:14:00 <zzo38> 7-Zip does list sections and resources for Windows executable files (although only 32-bit executables; it doesn't work with 16-bit Windows executables)
20:14:02 <int-e> anyway, what Vorpal said... it doesn't seem to be the right tool for digging into ELF files.
20:15:07 <Vorpal> zzo38: what about 64-bit ones?
20:15:10 <zzo38> Yes, I know, I just wanted to know why it does what it does.
20:15:23 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't know; I don't have any 64-bit Windows programs on my computer.
20:15:39 <Vorpal> wow, that is quite an old computer then
20:18:02 <zzo38> I do have 64-bit Linux though
20:18:44 <Vorpal> good night for real now
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20:25:41 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55413&oldid=55385 * Joshop * (+28)
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03:48:15 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55414&oldid=55391 * Oerjan * (+103) Change back to the more descriptive original, except keeping the link and changing restricted -> generalized
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05:55:16 <oerjan> . o O ( is lady Ariadne in any relation to Boris? )
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08:04:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CharCoding * New user account
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08:12:16 <CharCoding> I registered an account on the wiki but I don't understand the introduction page. How do I sign my username?
08:13:58 <CharCoding> 0_o nevermind, figured it out using preview
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08:14:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55415&oldid=55404 * CharCoding * (+173)
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10:49:02 <HackEso> The password of the month is <redacted>.
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17:11:14 <Vorpal> arseniiv: ping I have a new esolang idea (not a full language yet)
17:11:35 <Vorpal> bit pattern overlapped automatons
17:13:33 <Vorpal> every cell is an n-bit integer (32 maybe?) and then every bit (or group of bits) runs separately on it's own rule set. For example, bit 0 could be Game of Life, bit 1-2 some 4-state automaton and so on (note, not going to actually use GoL, since it is TC). The rulesets runs mostly separately, but will under certain circumstances interact with each other
17:14:02 <Vorpal> the goal is for you to have to use these overlap mechanics as well as doing computation locally in each "layer" for the end result to be TC
17:14:44 <Vorpal> I haven't really done much with cell automatons, so I don't think I could actually pull this off though
17:15:21 <arseniiv> hm I haven’t too, but maybe I’ll at least have some ideas
17:15:22 <Vorpal> but at least now the idea is out there, for anyone to grab and run with
17:17:53 <Vorpal> arseniiv: another language idea is a nethack or Dwarf Fortress like "game world" where you make a map and place actors (which distinct but simple and deterministic AI). This is used for computation.
17:19:10 <Vorpal> maybe they elephant could always charge in a straight line until it hits a wall or gate (and will continue running again if the gate is opened). While the treasure hunter will always seek out the nearest gold and run from any boulder traps
17:19:32 <Vorpal> there should be leavers for actors to pull and ways to link those to gates
17:20:03 <Vorpal> again, not yet a fully formed language, but this one I'm more optimistic about
17:20:19 <arseniiv> also about ideas: I have imagined if it could be possible in a cell automaton to modify the underlying graph (locally) — e. g. add or remove vertices (and corresponding edges)
17:20:36 <arseniiv> no concrete ideas here, though
17:20:51 <Vorpal> arseniiv: just non-flatness or stuff like wormholes?
17:21:14 <Vorpal> hm, cell automaton on a hyperbolic geometry?
17:22:39 <Slereah> Non-flatness doesn't change the edges of a lattice
17:22:42 <arseniiv> where you make a map and place actors (which distinct but simple and deterministic AI) => oh yes, I have thought about that after seeing Perpetuum Mobile. I even have a friend who played nethack many times, I’m going to suggest this to him
17:22:51 <Slereah> or distances, equivalently
17:23:04 <Slereah> the edges are the simplicial topology
17:23:28 <Vorpal> arseniiv: hey don't steal it ;P (I'm probably going to make my own even if you make one)
17:24:15 <arseniiv> just non-flatness or stuff like wormholes? => wormholes would be super neat, but again no idea how to pull that off without sacrificing locality
17:24:18 <Vorpal> Slereah: you could imagine cutting and gluing a cell automaton to create wormholes though
17:24:43 <Vorpal> arseniiv: it has locality, but the definition of "local" is complicated
17:24:58 <Vorpal> the locality must travel through the wormhole
17:25:05 <arseniiv> hm, cell automaton on a hyperbolic geometry? => if this wasn’t suggested by anyone yet, yeah, this is yet another deserving idea
17:25:27 <Vorpal> arseniiv: as Slereah pointed out, not that interesting with a lattice
17:25:43 <arseniiv> Vorpal: I mean, we should be able to create a wormhole locally
17:25:47 <Slereah> Well I mean, it depends how your automaton works
17:25:57 <Slereah> If the distance between vertices is important to the rules
17:26:09 <Slereah> otherwise, it's the same as a normal grid
17:26:43 <Vorpal> I haven't seen an automaton which use distance (as opposed to "neighbor"), but maybe you can make it work
17:27:59 <Vorpal> many years ago I implemented GoL in the scripting language of a module-based RPG called "Blades of Avernum". Don't think I have the files around any more. It basically changed the floor tiles to the next generation each time you pulled a lever
17:28:18 <arseniiv> hey don't steal it ;P (I'm probably going to make my own even if you make one) => I was actually about “redirect-stealing” it, but that person isn’t much into esolangs. I have a frend into them too, but he does’t play nethack (nor do I), so probably no luck with stealing here :D
17:28:42 <Vorpal> it has been years since I played nethack
17:28:54 <Vorpal> DF I played more recently
17:29:13 <Vorpal> oh yeah! the output of the program should be DF style combat logs
17:29:58 <Vorpal> arseniiv: ever played or seen DF?
17:32:07 <Vorpal> hm, I want to be able to put multiple things on the same square, so the language definition might be a bit annoying without a specialized editor.
17:32:20 <Vorpal> oh I know, why not use an image file, pixels
17:32:41 <Vorpal> I seen people use that for storing the levels in some games
17:33:15 <Vorpal> Then you have one colour for walls, and the other two colours for defining metadata
17:33:28 <arseniiv> If the distance between vertices is important to the rules then it will be different => hm I think despite distances aren’t mentioned in common automatons’ rules, they are in some sense present. Any (undirected; weighted or non-weighted—in the latter cases, it is weighted const 1) graph has a natural metric. It will be different for different regular grids
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17:34:06 <arseniiv> arseniiv: ever played or seen DF? => heard about a bit, only
17:34:14 <Vorpal> that or using ASCII for the level (program) layout + a separate listing (perhaps in yaml or json) below to place actors, connect levers and so on
17:34:36 <Vorpal> arseniiv: amazing game with a utterly steep learning curve
17:36:20 <Vorpal> arseniiv: here is an example of a combat log I found: https://i.imgur.com/DdJBN.jpg by googling. As usual very detailed and probably more gruesome than actually showing the combat would have been
17:38:53 <arseniiv> oh I know, why not use an image file, pixels => or a specialized IDE level editor :D a program could consist of several levels
17:39:17 <Vorpal> yes, it could, but I don't want to develop that
17:39:26 <arseniiv> instead of calling procedures, one could enter and exit levels
17:39:39 <Vorpal> though I seem to remember an off-the-shelf open source level editor thing for 2D games
17:40:24 <arseniiv> amazing game with a utterly steep learning curve => steeper than nethack? because I played the latter two times (and almost instantly died) and wasn’t satisfied
17:40:34 <Vorpal> hah, https://www.mapeditor.org/
17:40:38 <Vorpal> is what I was thinking of
17:40:51 <Vorpal> arseniiv: probably on par
17:40:51 <arseniiv> though I seem to remember an off-the-shelf open source level editor thing for 2D games => indeed
17:41:23 <Vorpal> I think it is that one at least
17:41:25 <arseniiv> probably on par => oh then thank you I’ll abstain :D
17:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> DF has a much steeper learning curve than nethack in the sense that you have to learn most of the game's mechanics and strategies for dealing with them right at the start to make any serious headway
17:42:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: but loosing is fun
17:42:30 <Vorpal> arseniiv: the thing about DF though is when things go sour, they usually do so in a pretty funny way
17:43:03 <Vorpal> arseniiv: a DF like game that is more approachable is Rimworld (costs money on steam)
17:43:27 <Vorpal> haven't played it, but watched a few streams on twitch and it looks good
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17:45:50 <arseniiv> Vorpal: I don’t think I’m going to play roguelikes in near future, but nonetheless thanks :)
17:47:49 <Vorpal> arseniiv: DF is not a rouge lite
17:48:51 <Vorpal> I guess you could say they are fortress/colony builders/sims
17:57:28 <Slereah> you could probably make a simple enough particle automaton in curved spacetime
17:59:32 <Vorpal> not even a clue what that is
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18:30:29 <plokmijnuhby> if your tetrahedra meet at weird angles, you've got some gravity going on
18:35:24 <Vorpal> plokmijnuhby: wait a minute, I'm confused about the causality, are you the alias of someone else in here? Or did you read the logs?
18:36:57 <Vorpal> plokmijnuhby: also, how do you pronounce that name?
18:39:32 <plokmijnuhby> I read the logs and thought I'd add my two cents
18:40:51 <Vorpal> okay, I don't quite get the d in midge from that spelling, but the rest seems sensible enough
18:41:21 <arseniiv> the problem (not a real one, but considering this context) of General Relativity is that it’s in general hard/impossible to calculate spatial section by spatial section. You can test if the complete space-time solution is correct or not, but as to construct it slice by slice…
18:42:19 <HackEso> plokmijnuhby: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:43:01 <arseniiv> this isn’t relevant if the region in question is “sufficiently newtonian”, as if taking a star system or a galaxy, but if one wants to consider wormholes, it suddenly is much more complicated
18:43:07 <Vorpal> okay I am inventing some new mechanics for the RPG language finally
18:43:39 <Vorpal> also I invented a separate esolang based solely on water flow I think, could almost be fleshed out into a separate language
18:43:56 <arseniiv> plokmijnuhby: please forgive me but what language it is?
18:44:22 <Vorpal> plokmijnuhby: I'm not 100% convinced by your brainfuck in Perpetuum Mobile by the way, I understand you are talking about compiling BF to PM rather than interpreting BF in PM, right?
18:44:25 <arseniiv> Vorpal: wow you are productive :D
18:44:57 <Vorpal> arseniiv: well, I needed water for the elephants to walk to and drink from, and then I started adding sluice gates and riverbeds
18:45:09 <arseniiv> do you have a qwerty keyboard?> got it
18:45:19 <shachaf> I have a programming language idea which might be eso or might not, I'm not sure yet.
18:45:49 <shachaf> It's something between C++ and a macro assembler and a lisp dialect. Or something.
18:45:54 <shachaf> I need to figure out the details still.
18:47:12 <Vorpal> arseniiv: you could make a simplified wormhole thingy, like if too many cells of a certain colour accumulates in a compact enough area, you create a square wormhole connected to some other part of the world with some other colour white hole
18:47:15 <Vorpal> or something like that
18:47:37 <Vorpal> doesn't have to behave like real general relativity to make an interesting language concept
18:47:49 <Vorpal> shachaf: sounds interesting
18:48:07 <Vorpal> olsner: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Perpetuum_Mobile made this esolang
18:49:52 <arseniiv> oh also is there an eso solely about sets? Some time ago I had one more or less completely described, it operated on hereditary finite sets and had a C-like syntax; its main feature, I think, was `select` statement; `select x in s` took an element of s and assigned it to x, then x was removed from s; it was an error if s = ∅ before all that. Now I see this construct should have been a form of pattern matching: `switch s case 0 blah blah case {x} ∪ s
18:50:22 <arseniiv> well, I needed water for the elephants to walk to and drink from, and then I started adding sluice gates and riverbeds => (rofl) :D
18:55:12 <Vorpal> arseniiv: sneak preview: https://gist.github.com/VorpalBlade/131d4062c60952eecfb5368b10a4169a
18:55:20 <Vorpal> that is the sort of thing I'm going for
18:55:26 <Vorpal> not sure what else to put in it yet
18:55:32 <Vorpal> some things I know though
18:57:37 <Vorpal> plokmijnuhby: yes, good idea, and there should be treasure hunters as well as rolling boulder traps
18:57:46 <Vorpal> will probably have goblins and such too
18:59:47 <Vorpal> ah, lepruchan with leaking gold bag
19:00:05 <Vorpal> leprechaun is apparently how that is spelled
19:00:26 <Vorpal> could also have static gold, which should actually be what ¤ is used for (since that is the generic currency symbol)
19:00:35 <Vorpal> sluice gate will have to be something else
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19:11:20 <arseniiv> Vorpal: thank you! Will look in detail tomorrow, now I’m off to sleep
19:12:23 <Vorpal> arseniiv: obviously a reference
19:12:30 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:12:38 <zemhill__> Vorpal: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
19:12:44 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:12:54 <Vorpal> plokmijnuhby: pick your poison
19:12:59 <Vorpal> fungot: which one do you prefer?
19:12:59 <fungot> Vorpal: uh sometimes they can be the more convenient because my kids like i said i
19:13:02 <arseniiv> what reference? Is it more specific than boulder traps in games?
19:13:10 <Vorpal> arseniiv: Indiana Jones duh
19:15:39 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
19:15:51 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
19:15:51 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
19:16:10 <int-e> plokmijnuhby: before you continue... lambdabot reacts to private messages.
19:16:12 <arseniiv> also it have occurred to me just now I have played Wanderer on android (so that port of it was named Wandroid); I was able to finish level 1 but it was tricky, partly because of controls (sweeping was somewhat faulty, the character ofter walked in the wrong direction)
19:17:15 <Vorpal> not familiar with that game
19:19:06 <arseniiv> there, you’re walking in 2D and there are various things moving deterministically, but you can move out of sync with them (it seems). I didn’t seen the original
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19:19:28 <Vorpal> so I added some more ideas
19:19:30 <arseniiv> there was boulders, specifically
19:20:48 <arseniiv> and also there wasn’t save for that second level I opened, so I deleted the app in a virtual rage
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19:55:23 <Vorpal> I'm also going to sleep
20:05:05 <Vorpal> but yeah I need to sleep now
20:10:40 <int-e> chat.freenode.net rotation, I'd guess
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20:27:27 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55417&oldid=55384 * Digital Hunter * (+13)
20:29:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:DatCodingGuy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55418&oldid=49174 * Digital Hunter * (+170) /* Your Github page says you're 19 */ new section
20:37:31 <int-e> ... why does that edit annoy me.
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21:23:04 <wob_jonas> fizzie: thank you for pointing me at scribus (software). it does seem like it will probably be able to do what I need.
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22:40:33 <fungot> alexandre: ( ( laughter uh-huh)) amazing you know it's just it's it's hard because i mean
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22:40:57 <boily> fungot: renostril.
22:40:57 <fungot> boily: while they're playing games but i'm sure with these things it's a great feeling to feel like i'm the only nut in the family i don't want
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01:12:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55419&oldid=54155 * LyricLy * (+2)
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01:34:09 <oerjan> `learn Nostril is a common Québécois greeting.
01:34:12 <HackEso> Learned 'nostril': Nostril is a common Québécois greeting.
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06:45:36 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55420&oldid=55330 * Galaxtone * (+27)
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06:54:47 <esowiki> [[Roi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55421 * Galaxtone * (+1571) Just created this language on unoffical esolang discord, Here's my formatted draft.
06:55:23 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55422&oldid=55421 * Galaxtone * (+10) Already noticed a little error, which I think is also in Schmuu.
06:56:04 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55423&oldid=55308 * Galaxtone * (+18) Fixed user links.
06:58:29 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55424&oldid=55422 * Galaxtone * (+156) Added a bit of font formatting to the characters.
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07:08:04 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55425&oldid=55424 * Galaxtone * (+98) Added categories
07:08:46 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55426&oldid=55425 * Galaxtone * (+0) Categories are case-sensitive, of course they are.
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07:17:07 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55427&oldid=55426 * Galaxtone * (+278) Added statement for escape sequences since those are graphically useful.
07:17:33 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55428&oldid=55427 * Galaxtone * (-1) Removed a empty line
07:18:15 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55429&oldid=55428 * Galaxtone * (+1) Sorry for the spam irc channel, Added a new line.
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07:22:07 <Galaxtone> Can someone tell me if ROI is a original-somewhat or if a language just like it exists?
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07:44:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Galaxtone * moved [[Roi]] to [[Roie]]: Renaming language to Roie as I'm removing the special case for exitting and turning it into it's own instruction.
07:45:06 <esowiki> [[Roie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55432&oldid=55430 * Galaxtone * (-58) Added said exit instruction which is the reason for the rename.
07:45:43 <esowiki> [[Roie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55433&oldid=55432 * Galaxtone * (+1) Now says Roie on the page aswell.
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07:57:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Saka * New user account
08:08:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55434&oldid=55416 * Saka * (+236) /* Introductions */
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09:40:10 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55435 * Saka * (+5) Created page with "hi"
09:46:10 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55436 * Galaxtone * (+3933) Helped someone on unoffical discord who just created a esolang account with formatting their text document into wiki code.
09:47:03 <Galaxtone> 2018, Unimplemented, High-level, Turing-Complete
09:50:12 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55437&oldid=55436 * Galaxtone * (+99) Added categories
09:53:20 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55438&oldid=55437 * Galaxtone * (+47) :P
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10:01:50 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55439&oldid=55438 * Saka * (+109) Corrections + example
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12:33:59 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55440&oldid=55439 * Saka * (+211) Output details
12:40:45 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55441&oldid=55440 * Saka * (+340) /* Syntax */
13:02:09 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55442&oldid=55441 * Saka * (+493) /* Examples */
13:05:40 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55443&oldid=54291 * Saka * (+56) added for seeker
13:10:42 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55444&oldid=55317 * Saka * (+147) seeker
13:11:13 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55445&oldid=55442 * Saka * (-2) oops
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13:24:13 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55446&oldid=55445 * Saka * (-8) teensy tiny typo and correction
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17:40:30 <wob_jonas> I just found that a certain software used at my new job allows passwords of at most 24 characters length.
17:40:52 <wob_jonas> I hate these low bounds for password length
17:47:40 <quintopia> 24 is enough man. as long as you are using basically random strings from the full ascii set
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17:49:54 <wob_jonas> quintopia: you can't use the full ascii printable set, because on many keyboards, the space bar clicks noticably differently from other keys
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17:52:02 <wob_jonas> more importantly, it's not practical to use random strings. it's often better to use easier to remember but longer strings.
18:01:16 <quintopia> im thinking of the schneier method
18:02:03 <quintopia> although in practice, pseudorandom can work if you use other tools
18:02:44 <quintopia> and if you worry about key sounds no password will do
18:03:12 <quintopia> as there are tools to reverse engineer passwords from sounds
18:03:28 <quintopia> hide a few microphones nearby and...
18:04:23 <wob_jonas> quintopia: if you choose passwords systemagically like that, then they no longer have anything near the full 157 bits of entropy of a random ascii printable string of 24 bytes
18:05:43 <quintopia> do tools exist that can exploit that difference?
18:06:09 <wob_jonas> it's not too hard to make one, even if you just guess the frequency of individual characters
18:06:36 <wob_jonas> if you just try strings with mostly letters, that already reduces the entropy a lot
18:07:55 <wob_jonas> if you try common letters first, and less of the FJKQVXYZ stuff, even better
18:08:05 <quintopia> if youre correctly applying the schneier method, youll have other symbols dispersed in. besides, even just letters and numbers give you 10^43 possibilities
18:08:30 <wob_jonas> quintopia: yes, some symbols. but still mostly letters.
18:08:56 <quintopia> the printable characters are mostly letters after all
18:09:41 <quintopia> have you considered trying my tool
18:15:01 <arseniiv> I think a higher bound (if any) on password length is nonetheless a good idea, too
18:15:16 <arseniiv> and use something like xkcd password method :)
18:15:17 <quintopia> https://github.com/quintopia/pwgen
18:16:01 <quintopia> my only point was that if you have memory constraints, you can still be secure
18:16:11 <quintopia> because the only issues are practical
18:16:16 <arseniiv> human minds are pretty bounded themselves, any artifical bound is even worse
18:16:25 <arseniiv> my only point was that if you have memory constraints, you can still be secure> ah, of course
18:16:59 <arseniiv> but that level of consideration is too far from practice(
18:22:04 <quintopia> too bad its something we still have to deal with
18:22:19 <wob_jonas> there's no memory constraint here. this isn't some tiny one-chip embedded device. it's a big program running on a computer where it needs lots of hard disk and RAM and cpu.
18:24:02 <arseniiv> also there is still in many places an issue with non-ASCII characters in passwords :(
18:24:02 <wob_jonas> and of course the only issues are practical. the whole point of using this particular software is practical only, because in theory you'd use some alternate universe perfect software that you have custom made with a team of twenty people in two years just for your needs and has the password length bound you desire.
18:24:55 <Vorpal> <wob_jonas> I just found that a certain software used at my new job allows passwords of at most 24 characters length. <-- weird, it can't be storage, since it will hopefully be hashed anyway
18:25:05 <Vorpal> so storage will be constant
18:25:17 <arseniiv> I have a habit to stick to [A-Za-z0-9] but it is bad, not any of my passwords is over 30 chars long
18:26:54 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: to [A-Za-z0-9]? not to [A-Xa-x1-9,.%] which is what you use in Hungary because you might not be able to switch keyboard layout when typing passwords and all other characters (except space) are in a different space between the hungarian qwertz and the US keyboard layout?
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18:28:06 <arseniiv> (maybe I will in the future, who knows)
18:29:07 <wob_jonas> (although technically you could also use the > sign if you type it as altgr-shift-dot, because shift-dot enters it on a US keyboard and altgr-dot on the more recent versions of the hungarian qwertz)
18:30:35 <quintopia> wob_jonas: how many users are there?
18:30:54 <\oren\> I once used an emoji in my password
18:31:12 <wob_jonas> quintopia: dunno, they're mostly local users that are valid on only a few machines
18:31:55 <\oren\> I think it was ice cream or something
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18:33:04 <lambdabot> You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:33:41 <ais523> currently I mostly use rg
18:33:51 <ais523> although ag is easier to type so I sometimes use that one out of habit, it's pretty good too
18:34:20 <ais523> it's basically the product of someone who saw the better-grep wars going on and thought "I can do better than all of that" and happened to be a Rust fan
18:35:07 <\oren\> I use sed as a better grep
18:35:28 <\oren\> or well a more featureful grep
18:35:30 <wob_jonas> by the way, at this job I'm working on windows machines again, which immediately reminded me why I so hate windows as a development platform
18:36:27 <ais523> \oren\: that's sort of generalising grep in a different dimension
18:36:48 <wob_jonas> I generally use perl instead of sed if I need any sort of advanced text processing, and use sed only for really basic stuff
18:37:27 <Vorpal> I don't know perl at all, so I use awk, grep, sed and such
18:37:34 <Vorpal> Or for complicated stuff, python
18:37:57 <wob_jonas> does python work well for text processing?
18:38:44 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: it works "okay", and if you need to do something more advanced with the text, that would benefit from the advanced features and packages, then it is good
18:38:57 <Vorpal> But no it is not the best alternative for pure text processing
18:39:28 <Vorpal> but I often find that I also need to pull some data from a json file as well or suchy
18:40:07 <Vorpal> or would benefit from being able to use better data structures than what perl has
18:40:13 <wob_jonas> I have used a json parser from perl to pull data from a json file
18:40:15 <Vorpal> perl probably have them
18:40:22 <Vorpal> but since I never learned perl, eh
18:40:46 <ais523> it's not hard to learn enough Perl to write in it, the hard part is learning enough to read other peoples' programs :-D
18:40:46 <wob_jonas> but I'm more interested in when you have free text, where a pre-built json parser or xml parser or html parser doesn't help
18:41:01 <wob_jonas> or the longer text parts inside a json or xml or html file, alternately
18:41:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, I'm just interested in how people use python now
18:41:33 <ais523> Python is a really bad language for oneliners
18:41:36 <ais523> you can do it, it's just painful
18:42:07 <HackEso> Can't locate JSON.pm in @INC (you may need to install the JSON module) (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.24.1 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl5/5.24 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24 /usr/share/perl/5.24 /usr/local/lib/site_perl /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl-base .). \ BEGIN failed--compilation aborted.
18:42:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's one problem I'd like to ask about. how do you write one-liners when python usually wants line breaks and indents? do you use some sort of preprocessor that converts some other notation to python lineabreaks and indents?
18:42:22 <ais523> hmm, I had a suspicion it might not be installed on HackEgo (Perl's JSON library, that is)
18:42:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: there are two methods, one is the combination of exec and \n for newlines
18:42:50 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I mainly use python as a general purpose language for anything where the execution speed isn't critical
18:42:58 <ais523> the other is to use a lot of nested lambdas so that you don't need to use any control structures that require a newline
18:43:20 <Vorpal> <ais523> Python is a really bad language for oneliners <-- agreed, that is where you have the classical unix utilities
18:43:41 <Vorpal> but I was talking about scripts you can use in your one liners
18:44:00 <ais523> `` echo one two three four | sed -e 'y/ /-/'
18:44:04 <Vorpal> like pulling data out of a complicated system and making it usable. Or just a library of functions to use from IPython
18:44:06 <ais523> `` echo one two three four | perl -pe 'y/ /-/'
18:44:13 <ais523> sometimes there's no difference between perl and sed
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18:45:36 <ais523> `perl Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'
18:45:37 <HackEso> Can't open perl script "Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'": No such file or directory
18:45:41 <ais523> ``perl -Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'
18:45:43 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `perl: not found
18:45:47 <ais523> `` perl -Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'
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18:47:06 <ais523> changes arithmetic to use bignum rationals
18:47:20 <ais523> it's nice if you want to quickly do exact calculations
18:47:31 <ais523> `` perl -Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113 - 22/7'
18:47:49 <Vorpal> ais523: anyway I had to look at some perl scripts at a few points, I don't like what I see. Like functions use $1 and so on for parameters instead of proper prototypes with parameter lists?
18:48:01 <Vorpal> the language appears to be messy to me
18:48:09 <ais523> no, $1 is a regex match, like \1 in sed
18:48:19 <ais523> Perl functions don't actually have parameter lists at all
18:48:29 <Vorpal> was some time ago, but I definitely remember there being no parameter lists indeed
18:48:40 <Vorpal> and still there were parameters somehow
18:49:24 <Vorpal> which in my opinion makes the code less clear, you can't just look at the definition of a function and figure out approximately what parameter is what
18:49:58 <ais523> it's fairly common to start a function by unpacking parameters into variables
18:50:36 <ais523> `` perl -E 'sub add {my $first = shift; my $second = shift; $first + $second} say add(1,2)'
18:50:45 <Vorpal> it is still less clear, and it will be much harder for an IDE to provide useful errors as you type a call to that function
18:51:02 <Vorpal> with modern python 3 and type annotations, an IDE like PyCharm can provide really good feedback
18:51:05 <ais523> IDEs tend not to handle Perl all that well
18:51:10 <Vorpal> almost as good as a statically typed language
18:51:18 <ais523> syntax-highlighting it is not only Turing-complete, but can potentially require things like network interaction
18:52:00 <Vorpal> would you then agree these are faults with the language and that perhaps that it would be better off not having those features in that form?
18:52:39 <ais523> well, Perl is designed to be insanely flexible
18:52:54 <Vorpal> true, but that compromises other qualities
18:52:56 <ais523> with languages you have a continuum between being easy to analyse and allowing programs to do weird things
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18:53:21 <ais523> in Perl you can do things like replacing the main loop of the interpreter at runtime
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18:54:05 <Vorpal> that seems like a thing that you actually shouldn't be able to do. I can't imagine a problem that couldn't be solved in a cleaner way
18:54:45 <Vorpal> also why does it even have a main loop outside of REPL mode?
18:55:19 <Vorpal> shouldn't it just execute the code (probably previously compiled to byte code) as it is, without ever returning until the main thread exits?
18:55:26 <\oren\> Vorpal: perl isn't a runtime-compiled language
18:56:29 <\oren\> Vorpal: you can change the syntax of the language during a program
18:56:30 <Vorpal> Also I thought modern Perl 6 compiled to Parrot or something like that?
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18:56:51 <\oren\> Vorpal: perl 6 is an entirely separate and incompativble language
18:57:01 <Vorpal> so it is not like python 2 vs 3?
18:57:09 <Vorpal> incompatible but convertible?
18:57:09 <\oren\> much more so than python 3
18:57:20 <\oren\> not really even convertible
18:57:58 <\oren\> and since perl 6 never caught on, when people refer to perl they almost always mean perl 5
18:58:09 <Vorpal> well presumably perl 5 will some day stop being supported (just like python 2 in 2020) and perl 6 take over? I assume they don't plan to run both parallel in perpetuity?
18:59:04 <\oren\> "Perl" is a family of languages, "Perl 6" is part of the family, but it is a separate language which has its own development team. Its existence has no significant impact on the continuing development of "Perl 5". <-- website says
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19:01:30 <ais523> Vorpal: Perl 6 is a new language by the designer of Perl, which was called "Perl" for some reason and confused everyone
19:01:51 <ais523> it does have a few similarities to Perl 5 but it really isn't a new version of the same language, but a new different language
19:02:03 <ais523> Perl 5 and 4 are a lot more similar (Perl 4 is basically Perl 5 with fewer features)
19:02:24 <\oren\> yeah. perl 6 is about as similar to perl as php is
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19:03:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: not that it matters here, but hackeso has a different set of programs installed than hackego
19:05:01 <wob_jonas> the other part I'd like to know about is how usable python is for handling text in an unknown ascii-based byte encoding, eg. can you match byte-oriented regexes or parse numbers from byte strings or format numbers into and the like?
19:05:02 <Vorpal> ais523: by the way, did you look at that language I made this weekend? I'm not sure about that TC conclusion (I didn't write it).
19:05:10 <Vorpal> so I would be interested in your take on it too
19:05:16 <wob_jonas> the rust stdlib is also currently somewhat bad in that respect
19:05:56 <ais523> Vorpal: I tried to read it quickly but couldn't easily parse the page
19:06:11 <Vorpal> it is a highly complicated language
19:06:34 <ais523> there's too many parts which interconnect which makes it hard to get much of an idea about how the language works
19:06:41 <ais523> maybe there's some other order in which things could be presented to make that work
19:08:07 <Vorpal> <ais523> there's too many parts which interconnect which makes it hard to get much of an idea about how the language works <-- that was the goal!
19:08:15 <Vorpal> lots of interacting mechanics
19:08:41 <Vorpal> so I don't think there is any mechanic that doesn't interact with any other
19:09:05 <Vorpal> at least that is the goal, probably not perfectly interacting of course
19:09:35 <Vorpal> for example particles only get stopped by the wires, (unless you use the high energy extension)
19:09:51 <Vorpal> but yes, maybe the description could be rearranged
19:11:39 <Vorpal> ais523: I don't know what order to present it in though
19:16:02 <Vorpal> I'll probably just implement it sometime during this year instead
19:22:08 <wob_jonas> At my new job I'm again working on windows machines. This reminded me immediately of why I so hate windows as a developer platform (as in, it's especially bad if you to write programs that run on windows machines), even though it seems this won't be limiting what I'm doing at this job in particular.
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21:18:12 <ais523> ooh, polyglot has 200 languages
21:18:25 <ais523> this might be a good time for someone with more spare time than me to write an article about it, going over each language and how it works
21:18:42 <ais523> perhaps ordered by popularity of the language so that people see familiar languages first and obscure ones near the end
21:21:53 <ais523> wait, has stasoid just posted five answers in a row?
21:22:31 <ais523> in that case I guess Chance technically wins with #194 (the second-newest answer at the time there were no rule-abiding answers for 14 days)
21:23:39 <ais523> ah yes, that's been acknowledged in the comments on #195
21:24:21 <ais523> Dec 6 2016 to April 26 2018 was a good run
21:29:37 <wob_jonas> hmm, two more abstruse goose strips. let me see if they've been listed.
21:30:24 <HackEso> aglist 596,597: b_jonas shachaf
21:30:48 <wob_jonas> abstruse goose has definitely turned active after several years of total silence
21:30:55 <shachaf> I don't think lists are required for regularly-updating things.
21:31:38 <shachaf> i,i An elephant is not required, / If I can use the media to be admired
21:31:38 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'll list it for a few more weeks, but if it does keep updating, then I will stop or at least batch the listings heavily until it gets rare again
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23:04:55 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA. new rig.
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23:46:23 * boily stares at moony Ō_Ō jiiiiiiiiiii~~~~~~~
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01:45:35 <shachaf> Is there a language where, you can write "{ X; ... }" and have it turn into "{ Y; ...; Z; }", where Z is some end code for Y?
01:46:01 <shachaf> This isn't quite like e.g. C++ destructors because the code wouldn't be executed at early exit.
01:47:40 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, weird, several languages have something like that but it's normally specifically to make the early-exit case work
01:48:01 <ais523> so if you want to exclude it, it might be hard to find a language which supports that exclusion
01:48:13 <ais523> D has a range of operators like that but I'm not sure if any have the exact semantics you want
01:48:37 <ais523> there are some languages flexible enough to do just about anything, e.g. Perl would let you dynamically change the parser so that it slipped in a Z before the }
01:48:46 <ais523> but I don't think that's what you're looking for either
01:50:25 <shachaf> ais523: I might want something that supports different behavior for early and non-early exit.
01:51:33 <ais523> I guess this is the point where I ask what you're trying to do in more general terms :-D
01:51:35 <shachaf> But really the early-exit case is well explored, so I'm wondering whether anything handles this behavior.
01:53:02 <shachaf> I wonder what the best way to describe it is.
01:53:40 <ais523> I'm reminded of the way you can put an "else" on a loop in Python
01:53:45 <ais523> this isn't the same at all but it seems similar in a way
01:53:52 <shachaf> Yes, I was thinking about that.
01:54:43 <ais523> you could probably do something with the condition of a for-loop
01:55:03 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe. But I also want to be able to goto Z or something.
01:55:03 <ais523> if you had a do-for loop and made it evaluate to false, it'd have the exact semantics you wanted
01:55:18 <ais523> (surely there's got to be a language with a do-for loop?)
01:55:33 <shachaf> So one thing I was thinking about was how in a lot of languages, say Ruby, you write things like "open(filename) {|f| ... }"
01:55:50 <shachaf> Where "open" takes a function argument and takes care of the cleanup and so on.
01:55:51 <ais523> I thought https://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL might sometimes have one, but apparently not
01:56:15 <ais523> shachaf: right, I think all serious languages are moving in that direction
01:56:21 <ais523> or, well, maybe not /all/ of them
01:56:23 <ais523> but a lot of major ones
01:56:24 <shachaf> Whereas in C++ RAII-style, you just write "{ File f = open(...); ... }", and f is automatically closed at the end of the scope.
01:56:52 <ais523> even Java has "try (InputStream f = new FileInputStream(…)) {…}"
01:57:02 <shachaf> In a lot of ways the C++ way is nicer -- e.g. you don't end up with deeply-nested scopes and lots of lambdas if you have a lot of these things. And also some other things.
01:57:11 <ais523> (I think "try" is a case of reusing a keyword to avoid accidentaly invalidating old variable names)
01:57:24 <shachaf> So I was wondering whether you can make all control flow use this mechanism.
01:57:45 <shachaf> For example write { if(p); ... } to mean "if (p) { ... }"
01:57:58 <ais523> oh, you definitely /can/ do that in D
01:57:59 <shachaf> Where the if executes the rest of the block only if its argument is true.
01:58:01 <ais523> but maybe only at the function level
01:58:08 <ais523> actually you can even do that in Perl
01:58:24 <ais523> (where "last" jumps out of the current block)
01:58:30 <shachaf> Well, I don't just want it for if, I want it for everything.
01:58:54 <ais523> the other cases, e.g. while, are suspiciously similar to come from
01:59:06 <shachaf> { while(p); ... }, { repeat(5); repeat(3); ... }, etc.
01:59:25 <shachaf> There were some other things I wanted that are less related to this.
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01:59:42 <shachaf> You might be able to write { x = for_in(arr); ...x... } to iterate an array
02:01:06 <shachaf> And then all these things can be implemented in terms of conditional goto or something.
02:01:47 <shachaf> There are a lot of nice things you can get if you can make it work.
02:03:34 <ais523> if you don't mind early exits continuing the loop, then you could use a cross between destructors and continuations
02:03:46 <ais523> perhaps the equivalent of breaking from a loop would be leaking the object
02:03:54 <shachaf> I want to support both break and continue.
02:03:56 <ais523> (Rust has an explicit function for leaking objects)
02:04:12 <shachaf> This is very continuationy, of course.
02:04:35 <shachaf> It's kind of like in { X; ... }, X gets the ... as an argument, CPS.
02:04:43 <ais523> hmm, Tableaux's @n syntax is basically "put the rest of the code into a block" in effect
02:04:48 <ais523> although it wasn't intended as that at all
02:04:52 <shachaf> (This use use of the acronym isn't standard.)
02:04:59 <ais523> come to think of it, this is basically Python one-liners
02:05:54 <shachaf> Anyway I don't really want it to be implemented in terms of complicated things like lambdas if possible.
02:06:16 <ais523> right, I guess what we want here is sugar for a "consuming block"
02:06:24 <shachaf> This is in the end pretty similar to the generated assembly you get for all these constructs.
02:06:31 <ais523> Lispers often use ] to represent "do ) for the rest of the program", so [ would work as a mirror of that
02:06:35 <shachaf> So I want a straightforward translation to low-level code.
02:07:11 <shachaf> There are also questions of how you represent if-else and switch and so on. I have some ideas that end up being pretty lisp-like.
02:07:29 <ais523> right, I'm mentally thinking about this as sugar for Lisp more than anything else
02:07:30 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean by [
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02:08:06 <shachaf> I was thinking of an indentation-sensitive syntax where if you write { to open a block and then you unindent to some level, you automatically get }s inserted to match the level.
02:08:28 <shachaf> Then what you would get with this syntax looks more or less like Python.
02:08:44 <ais523> basically, } means "close one block, then close an additional block for each [ since the previous { or }"
02:09:21 <ais523> if you're doing this as indentation-sensitive, then it's basically a normal indentation-sensitive language with a minimum indentation of 0 (rather than 1 like most of these languages use
02:09:56 <ais523> an easy way to stop if/else chains running to the right :-D
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02:10:17 <ais523> most langauges have an elseif or the like specifically to optimize that case indentation-wise
02:10:22 <ais523> in this langauge you wouldn't need it
02:10:29 <shachaf> I think indentation-sensitive languages should generally have a non-indentation-sensitive syntax option, like Haskell.
02:10:46 <shachaf> How are you thinking "else" would be implemented?
02:10:54 <shachaf> I had some ideas but they were a little awkward.
02:11:23 <ais523> it'd require the matching if to have an indented (or same-line) block, otherwise you'd effectively have an else at the start of a block
02:11:50 <shachaf> I don't want if-else to be keywords, though, just regular user-implemented things.
02:12:06 <shachaf> Ideally not even macros, just functions.
02:13:06 <shachaf> Assuming you have this one mechanism to insert code/variables at the end of a scope, and conditional goto, and appropriate labels for the beginning/end, you should be able to implement all the standard control flow in user code.
02:13:29 <shachaf> Though it gets kind of complicated, I think maybe you need five different labels for what I was thinking of.
02:13:40 <ais523> it's remarkably hard to do a nicely sugared else with conditional goto
02:13:47 <shachaf> ("start", "upkeep", "end", "cleanup"
02:13:53 <ais523> of course you can do it, but you need something like a stack of else addresses
02:14:18 <shachaf> You could do something lisp-style: { cond; { if(x); ... }; { else; ... }; }
02:14:18 <ais523> if you name them all individually it's easy, but people normally rely on the natural nesting of if/else
02:14:30 <shachaf> Where each if/else just needs to refer to the block immediately above.
02:15:26 <shachaf> Maybe that's what you meant by "a stack of else addresses".
02:20:55 <shachaf> Also if you have "return values" like { x := for(a); ... }, that's a little tricky
02:21:09 <shachaf> I guess it's a bit SSAy, which is similar to being a bit CPSy.
02:23:43 <shachaf> Anyway there are a lot of things that would be simplified with this model.
02:24:08 <shachaf> Things like nested loops or other control flow, of course.
02:24:55 <shachaf> But also initializers, like Go's "if x := y; z { ... }", which just turns into "{ x := y; if(z); ... }", or the initializer of a for loop.
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02:25:47 <Warrigal> Nut'n much, I'm just trying to figure out how to prove that 0 + x = x.
02:26:08 <shachaf> http://inutile.club/estatis/falso/ hth
02:27:23 <shachaf> Anyway there are a bunch of other things you can do if you use the model of "things inside blocks describe the block they're in" for everything, and allow flexible enough macros or something.
02:28:28 <shachaf> Maybe you can define functions as { (int x, char y) := args(); }, where args is a thing that interprets your calling convention.
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02:30:01 <shachaf> Or maybe even { fun(f); (int x, char y) := args(); }. Which can get compiled to something like ".globl f; f: mov $rdi, ...; whatever"
02:30:39 <shachaf> So it's like a high-level thing with a pretty direct translation to assembly in terms of labels and (conditional) goto.
02:31:02 <shachaf> Maybe lambdas can specify their captures this way too, I don't know.
02:31:30 <tswett> Something tells me you're not talking to me.
02:31:40 <shachaf> tswett: The link was for you.
02:31:55 <shachaf> That's as much as I can help without more context.
02:32:37 <shachaf> Also you changed your nick and I have no nick permanence so I forgot you existed.
02:33:28 <tswett> Yeah, so, I'm trying to prove that 0 + x = x.
02:33:40 <tswett> The main axiom I've got is...
02:33:59 <tswett> + is the unique binary operator on natural numbers such that p + 0 = p and p + S(x) = S(p + x).
02:34:58 <tswett> There's no axiom allowing proofs by induction.
02:35:19 <shachaf> then it seems p. tricky hth
02:35:33 <tswett> Yeah, I'm definitely not sure that what I'm trying to do is possible to do.
02:35:48 <tswett> Now, it's pretty trivial that 0 + 0 = 0.
02:36:10 <tswett> And, of course, we have 0 + S(x) = S(0 + x).
02:37:29 <tswett> It probably wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that, for any particular number y, if 0 + y = y, then 0 + S(y) = S(y).
02:40:40 <tswett> Lemme abstract a little. I have a function f such that f(0) = 0 and f(S(x)) = S(f(x)).
02:41:34 <tswett> Oh, there we go. Uniqueness of inductively defined functions.
02:43:00 <tswett> It's an axiom schema which has an instance which says: "There is exactly one function f such that f(0) = 0 and f(S(x)) = S(f(x))."
02:43:12 <tswett> Since 0 + x satisfies those equations, and x also satisfies those equations, 0 + x = x.
02:44:59 <shachaf> can you translate that to categories twh
02:46:20 <tswett> So we've got an arrow plus : N * N -> N.
02:46:31 <tswett> And arrows zero : 1 -> N and succ : N -> N.
02:47:24 <tswett> Ummmm, what's the next thing.
02:48:00 <shachaf> Is this a natural numbers object or what?
02:48:52 <tswett> So, consider the arrows const_zero : N -> N and id_N : N -> N.
02:49:24 <tswett> Where const_zero = zero . 1_N.
02:50:08 <tswett> Uh, forget about const_zero, actually.
02:50:27 <tswett> For that matter, forget about id_N.
02:50:38 <tswett> By the definition of a natural number object, there's exactly one arrow f : N -> N such that f . zero = zero and f . succ = succ . f.
02:50:54 <tswett> id_N satisfies these equations, so f = id_N.
02:52:28 <tswett> But plus . (zero &&& id_N) satisfies these equations too, so f = plus . (zero &&& id_N).
02:53:21 <tswett> I'm really botching my categories. There's no such thing as (zero &&& id_N).
02:54:27 <tswett> What I mean by plus . (zero &&& id_N) is plus . ((zero . 1_N) &&& id_N).
02:54:51 <tswett> Where 1_N is the unique morphism N -> 1.
02:55:53 <tswett> Now, of course, since equality is an equivalence relation, this means that...
02:56:12 <tswett> plus . ((zero . 1_N) &&& id_N) = id_N
02:56:21 <tswett> Or, written in conventional pointful notation...
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05:59:27 <esowiki> [[Roie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55447&oldid=55433 * Galaxtone * (-29) Holding off on TC actually, there's a problem.
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06:55:47 <esowiki> [[Roie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55448&oldid=55447 * Galaxtone * (+164) Changed IO so it actually works, Fixed confusion
07:58:47 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55449&oldid=55446 * Plokmijnuhby * (+52) It seems like you should be able to do input without doing an operation on it. I think this was the intended behaviour.
08:01:19 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55450&oldid=55449 * Plokmijnuhby * (-23) Made a slight mistake.
08:03:27 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55451&oldid=55450 * Plokmijnuhby * (-52) Sorry, just read the next section. Maybe this?
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08:06:15 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55452&oldid=55451 * Plokmijnuhby * (+3) /* Infinite counter (using seekers) */ I'm fairly confident that was wrong, anyway.
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12:16:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Akangka * New user account
12:23:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55453&oldid=55434 * Akangka * (+199) /* Introductions */
12:24:12 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55454&oldid=54359 * Akangka * (+167)
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16:00:22 <olsner> shikhin: you might know alercah from in here?
16:01:39 <olsner> but of course you don't actually need to know anyone to join them in ##:D
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16:36:42 <int-e> that sounds like an extremely silly channel
16:39:07 <shikhin> olsner, alercah: Ah, I see.
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17:36:43 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55455&oldid=55454 * Ais523 * (+2) /* List of OISCs */ grammar
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18:57:14 <shachaf> Is there any high-level language that has conditional goto?
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18:59:23 <shachaf> It's fancy talk for "if (p) goto q;"
18:59:57 <shachaf> Also it doesn't have to be that high-level.
19:00:13 <shachaf> I just want it to be in terms of an expression argument instead of a flags register or something.
19:01:41 <Slereah> As high level languages got developped goto became a big taboo so I don't think there were a lot of variants
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19:32:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, there are basic-like languages that have only an IF comparison GOTO label statement, not a full IF THEN
19:34:00 <wob_jonas> shachaf: in particular, the simple programming language of my sharp el-5120 programmable calculator only has such a conditional statement. the comparison uses one of the six arith comparison operators, with basically any expression (including complicated ones) possible on both sides of that operator
19:35:16 <wob_jonas> some older programmable calculators from before precedence expression parsing also have some comparison-goto statements, although usually it's just comparison to zero
19:37:27 <wob_jonas> whereas older intercals and older APLs only have a computed goto, rather than a conditional one
19:37:51 <wob_jonas> although intercal's is somewhat limited
19:38:09 <wob_jonas> it's not a real computed goto, just a BASIC-style switch-goto
19:38:27 <wob_jonas> (which is written as ON expr GOTO labellist in BASICs)
19:40:14 <wob_jonas> and... hmm, I don't know the history here, but don't some older fortran variants only have if-goto? or do they have single-line if like traditional BASICs do too?
19:40:40 <shachaf> Did you see the thing I said about blocks yesterday?
19:41:21 <wob_jonas> plus FORTRAN has that unique "three-way if" statement that is a switch-goto with exactly three targets depending on whether the controlling expression is zero or negative or positive
19:42:00 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you mean about the destructor exceptions? I wanted to say something about that too
19:42:19 <shachaf> Yes, except now I think destructors are kind of a red herring now
19:42:27 <wob_jonas> in C++ and some other languages, you could query in the destructor whether it's currently unrolling exceptions or not
19:42:49 <wob_jonas> so if you test that and only run your cleanup if they aren't unrolling, then you get what you asked for
19:42:54 <shachaf> Yes, I saw that. But unwinding the stack due to exception is pretty special, more special than break/early return.
19:43:15 <wob_jonas> alternately you could use a non-local exit mechanism and a destructor that aren't compatible with each other, so that non-local exit doesn't properly unwind the stack.
19:43:27 <shachaf> I bet ternary computers have a three-way if.
19:43:38 <wob_jonas> well, in ruby 1.8 those are implemented very similarly
19:44:10 <shachaf> Oh, I remember all these features of Ruby 1.8
19:44:16 <shachaf> redo, retry, all those strange things
19:44:22 <shachaf> Did they take some of these things out?
19:44:46 <wob_jonas> those are just like gotos with lexical targets, as in
19:45:36 <wob_jonas> if you have a function call with a block passed, written as either f(args){block} or f(args)do block end; and it basically makes a lambda of that block and passes it as an argument in a special place and
19:46:12 <wob_jonas> in the impl of the function f the shortcut yield statements calls that callback, but instead of calling it can also just store that callback and do whatever it wants;
19:46:54 <wob_jonas> so anyway, if you have a call like f(args){block} then imagine you put goto labels in it like this: label RETRY; f(args) { label REDO; ...; label NEXT; } label BREAK;
19:47:24 <shachaf> In Ruby you can write a regular while function that can be used like while(p) { ... }, right?
19:47:27 <wob_jonas> and then the four control statements go to those four labels, only they remember the right labels lexically even when you're multiple levels inside such calls
19:47:33 <shachaf> That's a pretty unusual feature for a function, I think.
19:47:46 <wob_jonas> except that these loop controls also apply for some built-in loop statements other than those syntaxes
19:48:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, that wouldn't work firstly because "while" is actually a keyword with a different syntax, secondly because you'd need to make a lambda of the condition too because it has to be evaluated multiple times
19:48:45 <shachaf> No, that's the weird thing about retry, the way you wrote it.
19:48:53 <shachaf> That you can have the argument to the function reevaluated.
19:49:01 <wob_jonas> but yes, you can write if and while conditionals that way, and that's how smalltalk and postscript etc do it
19:49:10 <wob_jonas> whereas ruby has a couple of builtin syntaxes for those
19:49:25 <shachaf> I thought in Ruby you could do it without a lambda.
19:49:31 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but it's still just a goto, only with a lexical label, and ruby doesn't normally have gotos
19:50:07 <wob_jonas> the function f can't call retry to recompute its arguments
19:50:20 <wob_jonas> it's onlk the brace block that knows (lexically) where that label is
19:50:25 <shachaf> wob_jonas: See http://ruby-doc.com/docs/ProgrammingRuby/html/tut_expressions.html#UM
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19:51:02 <shachaf> I'm trying this now in Ruby 2.5 and it says it's an invalid retry.
19:51:17 <shachaf> So maybe this *was* removed sometime after 1.8.
19:51:39 <wob_jonas> for "for" and "while" loops, two and three respective of those control statements are the same as the two and three control statements of C and perl respectively.
19:52:05 <wob_jonas> it's only logical that ruby added a fourth one, and that it allowed them arbitrarily deep with the lambda lexically bound
19:53:41 <wob_jonas> but for more complicated loops, they're different:
19:54:35 <wob_jonas> in perl, the control statements will act on the actual innermost loop, not on the loop that's in the lexical context of where you put the loop statement, which can get to broken invariants if the loop is in another function that doesn't expect you to use loop control statements on it,
19:55:16 <wob_jonas> and the same is true if you use loop labels in perl: with those you can distinguish different loops, but among two nested loops with the same label (or two recursive instances of the same loop code), the loop control statement will act on the innermost one.
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19:56:32 <wob_jonas> ruby has actual lexical loops, although you could simulate them in any language if you have call/ec or selective exception catching checking the value of the exception not just the type
19:58:08 <wob_jonas> the part that I find strange is that many of these languages with these powerful control constructs are reluctant to support gotos, despite that there is little or no technical difficulties implementing them. ruby doesn't normally have gotos, although I think there's some non-vanilla hack adding them; python doesn't have goto; lua does have goto no
19:58:08 <wob_jonas> w but didn't use to have it for a while;
19:58:33 <wob_jonas> and rust doesn't have goto yet, but I hope people will eventually agree to add one after the rewrite of the borrow checker.
20:00:26 <wob_jonas> luckily perl has a goto (and it's quite powerful a tool too, but still only syntactical if you try to goto out from a lambda body), and C++ has a goto too (with some limitations)
20:01:40 <wob_jonas> languages should just add goto and come from (plain one, not computed one; the computed one is much more difficult).
20:02:23 <wob_jonas> some esolangs have good excuses not to have it
20:37:29 <\oren\> wob_jonas: I don't understand why more languages don't have unless aand until
20:48:02 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I don't like those these days
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20:58:40 <shachaf> Is there something like continuation-passing style in low-level languages that don't support closures and so on?
20:58:55 <shachaf> Maybe that's what I'm looking for.
20:59:17 <shachaf> SSA is one sort of answer.
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21:02:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you just emulate closures by storing a state and all upvalues in that case
21:04:27 <wob_jonas> and then you optimize that by having a persistent structure that stores most of your values, rather than creating a new structure for every state
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23:00:07 <shachaf> ais523: So I think a pretty natural way to express "for x: ...\nelse: z" is "loop: { for (x) { ...break loop...; }; }", if you have labeled breaks.
23:00:58 <shachaf> Also, blocks should support return values, and return should just be the same thing as break?
23:01:05 <shachaf> Then inlining is very straightforward.
23:01:23 <shachaf> Also ais523 isn't here. Maybe he logreads.
23:01:38 <shachaf> Apparently Rust recently got support for return values for blocks.
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00:59:15 <tswett> Y'all know about skullcode, right? http://skullcode.com/
00:59:46 <tswett> It's this thing. It's not completely obvious what, exactly, it is.
00:59:47 <ais523> are you going to try to convince me to click the link?
01:00:10 <tswett> I mean, it's a "self-hex-editor" hosted in some sort of VM.
01:00:29 <tswett> It's a hex editor running on a VM, where the thing that it's editing is the memory of that VM.
01:01:09 <ais523> doesn't that make it a codenomic, technically?
01:01:40 <tswett> But it's not multi-player.
01:01:43 <ais523> not normally; sometimes I logread when I have nothing better to do (not the case right now!) but in such cases I'll typically not be on IRC at the time
01:01:43 <tswett> shachaf: do I? I don't.
01:01:49 <ais523> if someone suggests logreading then that'll normally prompt me to read
01:01:56 <tswett> Anyway, let me segue into my question.
01:02:19 <tswett> Does anyone know of a browser-hosted VM (similar to skullcode) where you can edit, save, and load snapshots of the VM state?
01:02:27 <tswett> Preferably a VM with a simple architecture, like MIPS?
01:02:50 <shachaf> I wrote a bit about for-else above but by now I've had a whole bunch of other thoughts.
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01:04:02 <ais523> <shachaf> In Ruby you can write a regular while function that can be used like while(p) { ... }, right? ← this is a defining feature of call-by-name languages
01:04:24 <ais523> some languages are normally call-by-value but let you explicitly lazify an argument, which makes them effectively call-by-name in that respect
01:05:20 <shachaf> That's not exactly what's going on there, I think.
01:06:03 <shachaf> You can't reevaluate an arbitrary argument, just restart the entire function from the top, including argument evaluation.
01:06:25 <shachaf> Also when people say call-by-name I usually think of languages without mutable variables.
01:06:32 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ocaml: command not found
01:06:37 <ais523> was going to give an example
01:06:48 <shachaf> I mean, I believe you, it makes sense.
01:06:55 <ais523> shachaf: that defeats most of the point of call-by-name if you don't have mutable variables
01:07:00 <ais523> as that makes the calling convention invisible
01:07:18 <ais523> so you don't know or care if it's call-by-name or not and in most contexts, call-by-value is more efficient
01:08:37 <shachaf> Unless an argument doesn't terminate or something like that.
01:08:51 <ais523> that's effectively an effect too
01:16:42 <ais523> shachaf: here, here's a program I just wrote: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/15.txt
01:16:52 <ais523> and it shows off call-by-name pretty well
01:17:07 <ais523> although not the control flow behaviour (Algol 60 control flow is painful), more the basic idea of CBN
01:17:19 <ais523> it shows off re-evaluating arbitrary arguments, at least
01:17:46 <ais523> (OK, technically it isn't proper Algol 60 as Algol 60 doesn't have a print statement, but my Algol 60 compiler adds one as an extension)
01:23:55 <ais523> you can probably guess what output gets printed
01:24:42 <esowiki> [[Roie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55458&oldid=55448 * Galaxtone * (+112) Just incase.
01:30:20 <ais523> actually that code feels a bit icky to me from a types point of view, functions should be distinguishing between integer lvalues and integer rvalues
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02:20:48 <Galaxtone> this roie language is giving me some real trouble to make it actually work
02:20:58 <Galaxtone> Might have to add yet another instruction
02:34:17 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55459&oldid=55457 * Xanman12321 * (+34)
02:40:25 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321/Consequences]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55460 * Xanman12321 * (+573) Created page with "'''Consequences''' is an esolang very similar to Brainfuck, however each command does something unwanted. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Extra action |- | > || Decrement..."
02:47:12 <ais523> that's userspace, so it's probably a draft rather than a final version
02:48:49 <ais523> I was wondering if it was TC until I saw the side effect of +
02:48:56 <ais523> now I think it probably is TC, although I'm not sure
02:49:17 <ais523> there might be something specific you can't do that you need to but I can't see anything obvious
02:49:36 <ais523> I think you mostly use + to go left, > to go right, - to adjust cells
02:49:55 <ais523> and leave enough junk elements on the tape that you can throw away most of the side effects in places you don't care about
02:50:23 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321/Consequences]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55461&oldid=55460 * Xanman12321 * (-573) Blanked the page
02:51:01 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321/Consequences]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55462&oldid=55461 * Xanman12321 * (+573)
02:51:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Xanman12321 * moved [[User:Xanman12321/Consequences]] to [[Esolang:Xanman12321/Consequences]]
02:52:01 <ais523> oh, I think they're trying to move it to mainspace
02:52:06 <ais523> I'd better intervene, screwed-up moves can be hard to fix
02:52:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Xanman12321 * moved [[Esolang:Xanman12321/Consequences]] to [[Xanman12321/Consequences]]
02:52:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Esolang:Xanman12321/Consequences]] to [[Consequences]]: I assume the author's trying to move this to mainspace
02:53:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Xanman12321/Consequences]]": Broken redirect
02:53:02 <Galaxtone> He already moved it back berfore you did that
02:53:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Xanman12321 * moved [[Xanman12321/Consequences]] to [[Consequential]]
02:53:35 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55470&oldid=55468 * Xanman12321 * (+1)
02:54:07 <shachaf> I kind of want to write an implementation of this block language.
02:54:15 <shachaf> But it might be a lot of work.
02:54:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Consequences]]": Broken redirect
02:54:39 <shachaf> And I'm mostly procrastinating on something important by thinking about it.
02:54:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Xanman12321/Consequences]]": Broken redirect: redirect left behind after a chain page-move
02:54:49 <Galaxtone> sorry mate, looks like you were trying to help but just ended up messing up in the end.
02:55:10 <ais523> no, he didn't move it back
02:55:15 <ais523> he moved it to three different titles
02:55:19 <ais523> and I had to clean up after each of them
02:55:39 <Galaxtone> He has been on the discord and just created his account
02:55:41 <ais523> <ais523> I'd better intervene, screwed-up moves can be hard to fix ← looks like I was slightly too slow on the intervening, but luckily it was screwed up in a way that was fairly easy for an admin to fix
02:55:54 <Galaxtone> I'll inform him of this redirect "issue".
02:55:57 <ais523> what's the page name /meant/ to be? if it's Consequential, then all is fine
02:56:19 <ais523> the basic rule is that you can't move the same page twice without admin help, or things end up getting slightly broken
02:56:39 <ais523> but quite a few people try to get round this issue via copy-and-paste which makes things a lot worse
02:56:57 <ais523> that didn't happen so the cleanup wasn't so hard
02:57:02 <Galaxtone> ok I've sent him an image of this so he knows about it.
02:57:11 <Galaxtone> so that he doesn't accidentally create redirects unkouwningly
02:58:06 <ais523> incidentally, when you create a new language, it's often worth adding it to categories (see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorisation) and to the [[e:Language list]]
02:58:11 <ais523> err, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
02:58:26 <ais523> that makes it easier for other people to come across it
02:58:43 <ais523> which increases the chance that you get comments from other people, implementations, computational class proofs, etc.
02:59:13 <ais523> if the only places it shows are in Special:RecentChanges (and it stops being recent after a while…) and Special:Allpages, very few people are likely to ever see it
02:59:48 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55471&oldid=55470 * Xanman12321 * (+44)
03:00:07 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55472&oldid=55471 * Xanman12321 * (+1)
03:00:49 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55473&oldid=55472 * Xanman12321 * (+8)
03:01:07 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55474&oldid=55473 * Xanman12321 * (+0)
03:01:31 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55475&oldid=55474 * Xanman12321 * (-3)
03:01:37 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55476&oldid=55475 * Xanman12321 * (-1)
03:01:51 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55477&oldid=55476 * Ais523 * (-12) site policy: links to userspace must have the "User:" visible
03:32:07 <Galaxtone> Wait did you just update your privacy policy?!?!
03:32:42 <ais523> nah, that's been a policy for years and years
03:32:59 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Policy
03:33:04 <Galaxtone> well I know plently of esolang pages which don't have User:
03:33:19 <ais523> since 2007: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Policy&oldid=7955
03:33:23 <Galaxtone> `[[User:Galaxtone|Galaxtone]]` well there goes this.
03:33:23 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: [[User:Galaxtone|Galaxtone]]`: not found
03:33:40 <ais523> right, it's not that enforced because it's easy to miss it
03:33:52 <ais523> but the point is that we want to separate pages /about/ something or someone from pages /by/ something or somoene
03:34:13 <ais523> I can write more or less what I like on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ais523, but people visiting the page should know that it might be potentially biased or the like
03:34:16 <Galaxtone> time to go through all my contributions
03:35:05 <ais523> actually it was policy even before 2007 I think
03:35:33 <ais523> the Esolang:Policy page started off as observational, i.e. "this is a list of things that people got banned for disobeying even though there were no explicit rules", back when Esolang was pretty much a dictatorship
03:35:38 <ais523> nowadays we use it as a guide to what the rules are
03:35:47 <esowiki> [[Roie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55478&oldid=55458 * Galaxtone * (-10) Just learned it's against esolang "policy" to hide "User:" in user page links. ;-;
03:36:12 <Galaxtone> well now to apply that to like 5 other pages
03:37:09 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55479&oldid=55452 * Galaxtone * (-15) Just learned it's against esolang "policy" to hide "User:" in page links. ;-;
03:37:30 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55480&oldid=55423 * Galaxtone * (-18) Just learned it's against esolang "policy" to hide "User:" in page links. ;-;
03:37:49 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55481&oldid=55420 * Galaxtone * (-10) Just learned it's against esolang "policy" to hide "User:" in page links. ;-;
03:38:21 <Galaxtone> Emoji-gramming doesn't show who created the language.
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03:58:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar9WRwCiSr0
04:04:11 <shachaf> Also I guess that's somewhat on-topic in here.
04:48:28 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55482&oldid=55477 * Galaxtone * (+404) Redid the layout a bit.
04:50:34 <ais523> Galaxtone: hmm, your friend deleted the end of the article by mistake
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09:21:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fyr * New user account
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09:30:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55483&oldid=55456 * Fyr * (+137)
09:31:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, Rust always had return values from blocks, they were always expressions like do-blocks in perl
09:31:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the new feature is that now you can use a break statement for a bare labeled block, as opposed to just in a while loop with or without a label
09:32:10 <wob_jonas> and for such a break statement, you can also return a value, which isn't too new
09:33:42 <wob_jonas> it doesn't allow return values for while loops and for loops, for the technical reason that the return value wouldn't be defined if the condition is false the first time in a while loop or there are no iterations on the for loop
09:33:59 <wob_jonas> but forever loops always have at least one iteration, because they don't start with a condition, so it's no problem there
09:35:15 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'd also like to note that my esolang geo has plain blocks and forever loops, and for both you have unconditional and conditional breaks that can deliver a return value for the block, but only for the innermost level, no labels or multi-level breaks
09:37:22 <shachaf> I thought saw an RFC for adding these things to Rust but maybe it was quite old.
09:37:32 <wob_jonas> and rust has supported multi-level breaks using loop labels for very long, but not through function/lambda boundaries
09:39:05 <wob_jonas> ruby and mathematica also have values for blocks, with not much difference between statements and expressions
09:40:27 <wob_jonas> in rust there's some slight difference, as in, you need a brace block (as opposed to just parenthesis) for semicolons or local variable declarations or other declarations, and brace blocks make the lexical scope of identifiers declared inside local into them and gets local variables declared in them destroyed at the end of the block (like C++)
09:41:05 <shachaf> I think I also want possible input values for blocks.
09:41:42 <wob_jonas> but brace blocks themselves are expressions that you can put anywhere in an expression and have a value, and all the control statements (if, while, for, case, loop) are statements you can put anywhere too (although while and for always return unit)
09:42:41 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you have those too, if you mean like the limited syntax support for local variables declared in the head condition of an if/while/for like in C++
09:42:54 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure what else you mean by input values
09:43:46 <shachaf> Hmm, well, how would you translate { it := for(a); ... } as described earlier?
09:44:03 <wob_jonas> um... described where? let me check the logs
09:44:56 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't understand the question. can you clarify?
09:45:25 <shachaf> I don't understand it either, exactly.
09:45:57 <shachaf> If you defined a "for" operator that iterates a thing and yields a value to the rest of the block, what code would it turn into?
09:48:30 <shachaf> Maybe something like: { L: Iterator it, end; start: it = a.begin(); end = a.end(); upkeep: if (it == end) break L; goto main; main: { ... }; end: ++i; goto upkeep; }
09:49:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: in rust, the for loop always returns the unit value (), because that's how it's defined and that's what makes sense when it can have zero iterations. if you want a return value, you use a library method such as map, find, max, sum, fold, ...
09:50:11 <wob_jonas> or you can use a local variable and access it inside a for loop or in the callback of some of those methods
09:51:04 <wob_jonas> rust has mutable local variables like C++, perl, ruby, scheme, etc, so you can do this easily, unlike in haskell
09:51:27 <shachaf> You can do that but sometimes it doesn't make sense to have an uninitialized variable.
09:52:16 <wob_jonas> for the fold method, you give an initializer; for the find method, it returns an Option (which is like a Maybe in haskell)
09:53:36 <shachaf> OK, but I'm not talking about Rust.
09:54:24 <shachaf> There's no real reason to talk about C++ iterators either, of course, but they're a reasonable starting point.
09:56:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think what rust does here is more or less reasonable
10:04:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: for syntax and semantics of loops and statements and expressions, at least in a language that you may want to compile
10:04:48 <wob_jonas> (as opposed to some fully dynamically typed language that you'll always interpret)
10:05:27 <wob_jonas> (you know, one like ruby or perl where you can override most builtin ops)
10:09:33 <shachaf> But I specifically want this other syntax and semantis.
10:10:01 <shachaf> It's still all compiled, though, hopefully to equally efficient code.
10:11:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: um, but what's the other syntax and semantics you're proposing?
10:14:45 <shachaf> Well, that's what I'm figuring out.
10:15:08 <shachaf> The syntax looks like { x := for(a); ...; }
10:16:22 <shachaf> It would do "for(x : a) { ... }"
10:16:39 <shachaf> For example, I don't know, { i := for(range(n)); j := for(range(m)); if (i < j); print (i,j); }
10:16:51 <shachaf> Each thing affects the rest of the block that comes after it.
10:17:06 <shachaf> I talked about this earlier but probably not very clearly.
10:23:35 <shachaf> I think "blocks that have an input" is similar to SSA
10:24:47 <shachaf> Also I guess conditional goto is standard in SSA.
10:25:01 <shachaf> With basic blocks/extended basic blocks and all that?
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11:32:34 <esowiki> [[Infbf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55484 * Fyr * (+1346) Created page with "'''Infbf''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:Fyr]]. It is a derivative of [[brainfuck]] with an infinite-dimensional hypercube tape where each dimension has t..."
11:33:41 <esowiki> [[User:Fyr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55485 * Fyr * (+9) Created page with "[[Infbf]]"
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