←2019-12 2020-01 2020-02→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:00:00 <b_jonas> Happy New Year to the +00:00 timezone offset! Happy New Year HackEso.
00:00:19 <oerjan> `botsnack with cognac chocolate
00:00:24 <HackEso> ​>:-D
00:00:53 <b_jonas> do any of the other bots have a well-defined timezone?
00:00:54 <b_jonas> @time
00:00:58 <lambdabot> Local time for b_jonas is Wed Jan 1 01:00:54 2020
00:01:04 <b_jonas> @time lambdabot
00:01:04 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
00:01:09 <b_jonas> ugh
00:01:35 <b_jonas> ^time
00:01:39 <b_jonas> =time
00:01:42 <oerjan> lambdabot used to be even more snarky back when @vixen worked
00:01:49 <kmc> @vixen
00:01:49 <lambdabot> You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore, because, gentlemen, this is my last press conference.
00:01:57 <kmc> i find it hilarious
00:02:03 <kmc> that @vixen was removed for being offensive
00:02:07 <kmc> so now it auto-corrects to @nixon
00:02:13 <kmc> which is more offensive
00:02:15 <kmc> @nixon
00:02:15 <lambdabot> I can take it. The tougher it gets, the cooler I get.
00:02:17 <kmc> @nixon
00:02:17 <lambdabot> In a flat choice between smoke and jobs, we're for jobs...But just keep me out of trouble on environmental issues.
00:02:48 <oerjan> kmc: yeah but @nixon is just politically offensive, while @vixen was occasionlly nsfw
00:02:55 <kmc> perhaps
00:03:05 <oerjan> not that i actually consider nsfw more than an american obsession
00:03:19 <kmc> there are some choice quotes about the blacks and the jews in there
00:03:40 <b_jonas> when's the next new year? do we have anyone to the east of the big -05:00 timezone?
00:03:41 <oerjan> i suppose those could be nsfw as well
00:03:53 <b_jonas> `? canaima
00:03:54 <HackEso> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
00:04:06 <oerjan> b_jonas: i dunno
00:04:19 <kmc> `? cannabis
00:04:21 <HackEso> cannabis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:04:38 <oerjan> are you implying venezuelans would be?
00:04:59 <oerjan> although i banned canaima users so there are a lot fewer than there used to
00:05:19 <oerjan> (they were pretty much entirely lost people)
00:05:50 <kmc> 23:20 < kmc> though i'm sure if you went through the logs you could find loads of embarrassing things i've said
00:05:52 <oerjan> occasionally someone gets through who has changed the default username
00:05:53 <kmc> 23:20 < kmc> @nixon
00:05:55 <b_jonas> oerjan: they would be, they're in -04:00 timezone offset, but I was more like asking HackEso because I don't remember what geographical place canaima was associated with
00:05:56 <kmc> 23:20 < lambdabot> I'm glad I'm not Brezhnev. Being the Russian leader in the Kremlin. You never know if someone's tape recording what you say.
00:08:28 <oerjan> quote of the century, that
00:08:46 <b_jonas> but even apart from that, there could be someone from the -03 or -04 timezones just randomly here. I know there are some south americans on the internet who speak English.
00:09:26 <b_jonas> I wonder why this channel has nobody from australia or new zealand by the way. maybe those countries are too sane and #esoteric attracts us crazy ones only.
00:09:38 <bunnyocto19> hm.
00:09:40 <bunnyocto19> good point.
00:09:47 <b_jonas> I mean in general, not during the current fires in particular.
00:09:48 <oerjan> b_jonas: itidus was australian, though not particularly sane
00:09:48 <bunnyocto19> let me check SMIR from those contries
00:10:15 <b_jonas> like, some of them don't have internet access right now, or are evacuated and have bigger problems than chatting on #esoteric
00:10:22 <b_jonas> oerjan: I see
00:10:42 <b_jonas> and HackEgo used New Zealand locale but UTC timezone I believe
00:10:59 <bunnyocto19> hm nah australia seems to have pretty high insanity rates
00:10:59 <oerjan> i suspect it may be just time zone making it awkward for them?
00:10:59 <bunnyocto19> so
00:11:01 <bunnyocto19> that ain't it
00:11:29 <bunnyocto19> maybe it's just the wrong kind of insanity
00:11:30 <bunnyocto19> like
00:11:35 <bunnyocto19> killing koalas insanity
00:11:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh come on, we have people with the weirdest circadian rhythms here, like Europeans active during american times
00:11:40 <bunnyocto19> instead of using python insanity
00:12:05 <bunnyocto19> people who use python are logically insane
00:12:15 <bunnyocto19> not legally insane, just logically insane
00:12:43 <oerjan> bunnyocto19: hm wait are you mroman in very slight disguise
00:12:53 <bunnyocto19> pretty much
00:13:08 <bunnyocto19> Am I famous for hating on python?
00:13:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: it took me a long time to realize that as well
00:13:35 <oerjan> no, for blsq, but you spoke about the author in third person so i first thought it was _not_ you
00:13:53 <bunnyocto19> might have been a dramatic reference :D
00:13:55 <bunnyocto19> but yeah
00:13:56 <bunnyocto19> I'm mroman
00:14:00 <oerjan> but just now that australian thing got me to check your whois
00:14:18 <b_jonas> nickserv info bunnyocto19
00:14:37 <bunnyocto19> and what's my whois say?
00:14:39 <oerjan> (irc whois + unix whois, in combination)
00:14:54 <oerjan> bunnyocto19: it gives an ip which the other whois tells is swiss
00:15:04 <bunnyocto19> well
00:15:07 <b_jonas> bunnyocto19: it says you're using webchat
00:15:09 <bunnyocto19> that could be any swiss
00:15:37 <bunnyocto19> but yes, I got a new temporary nick
00:15:57 <bunnyocto19> in case they're watching me
00:15:59 <oerjan> sure, but a swiss who does burlesque? seemed more likely it was the same person.
00:16:00 <bunnyocto19> but now I guess it's over so..
00:16:02 -!- bunnyocto19 has changed nick to mroman.
00:16:45 <mroman> and by them I mean my insurance provider.
00:16:59 <kmc> `date
00:17:00 <HackEso> Wed Jan 1 00:16:59 UTC 2020
00:17:06 <kmc> `ddate
00:17:08 <HackEso> Today is Sweetmorn, the 1st day of Chaos in the YOLD 3186
00:17:17 <fizzie> Happy 3186 everyone.
00:17:22 <kmc> happy 3186
00:17:40 <mroman> oerjan: burlesque is getting maintained again at least
00:17:43 <kmc> what sets the year 0 of the discordian calendar, again?
00:18:37 <mroman> i'm on work disability
00:18:40 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: oh come on, we have people with the weirdest circadian rhythms here, like Europeans active during american times <-- yeah but it still stacks the probabilities against them
00:18:47 <mroman> not sure they would count chatting as work or something.
00:19:16 <fizzie> kmc: Hmm, I don't know. The calendar page just says "[1970 = 3136]".
00:19:26 <kmc> okay
00:19:43 <mroman> and legally the gov is allowed to spy on people on disability
00:19:43 <mroman> so
00:19:50 <b_jonas> mroman: oh, only that? so it's not, like, you're inpatient in a hospital and banned from using the internet at certain times but smuggled in a device (come on, that's a serious possibility, people on #esoteric reported that)
00:20:10 <mroman> I used to be banned from the internet
00:20:19 <mroman> for a couple of days
00:20:32 <fizzie> kmc: Oh, apparently it's because the Curse of Greyface happened in the year 1166 B.C.
00:20:38 <mroman> that's part of the abuse story
00:20:40 <kmc> b_jonas: hm, I have a guess who that would have been
00:20:48 <fizzie> > 1970 - 3136
00:20:50 <lambdabot> -1166
00:20:55 <mroman> which i'm legally not going to tell any details until the case is settled
00:21:11 <fizzie> "In the year 1166 B.C., a malcontented hunchbrain by the name of Greyface, got it into his head that the universe was as humorless as he, and he began to teach that play was sinful because it contradicted the ways of Serious Order."
00:21:23 <kmc> story checks out
00:22:09 <mroman> i mean most hospitals allow you to use your phones and laptopts
00:22:11 <mroman> at least here
00:22:16 <mroman> heard different things about the US
00:22:17 <b_jonas> mroman: makes sense to not want that on a channel that is publicly logged forever
00:22:35 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, but I specifically said banned during part of the day
00:22:53 <mroman> oh. that.
00:22:56 <mroman> no.
00:23:01 <mroman> that's very unusual
00:23:04 <b_jonas> and it's during the night in switzerland
00:23:07 <b_jonas> is it now? hmm
00:23:08 <mroman> they only do that for punishments
00:23:13 <mroman> but not as a general rule
00:23:42 <mroman> basically if you're a 25y old adult who behaves like a 14 crappy teenager they'll do the "give me your phone" stuff with certain patients
00:23:59 <mroman> but adult patients know the rules: "during sessions don't use your phone. inbetween sessions use it"
00:24:11 <mroman> those who don't get that will get their phones confiscated
00:24:29 <mroman> so it's only really a problem for adults who aren't really adults
00:24:57 <mroman> there's a no TV until 4pm rule
00:25:02 <b_jonas> ok, this doesn't quite match my evidence, but it could differ between countries or between hospitals or between parts of a hospital I guess
00:25:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lebster * New user account
00:25:21 <mroman> you're just not allowed to take pictures of other people
00:25:49 <oerjan> i'd be surprised if these rules were at all standardized across countries
00:25:56 <mroman> yeah I heard stories about the US where having your smartphone taken away is common procedure
00:26:04 <oerjan> beyond things bad enough to be human rights violations
00:26:12 <mroman> doesn't really happen here unless you have to go to isolation
00:26:27 <mroman> but even then... only under extreme circumstances
00:27:12 <mroman> if you're an immediate suicide risk you'll be put into isolation with all your clothes taken away and replaced through hospital clothes
00:27:15 <b_jonas> mroman: I'm European
00:27:18 <mroman> there'll be one mattress on the floor.
00:27:31 <mroman> all other items are taken away
00:27:37 <mroman> (the smartphone too)
00:27:46 <mroman> but that's about it.
00:27:48 <b_jonas> no pictures, sure, that applies to basically the whole hospital, because there are other people there
00:28:14 <mroman> that's usually just for one night or something and then you're transfered to a regular room
00:29:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68515&oldid=68487 * Lebster * (+234) /* Introductions */
00:29:08 <mroman> there was just one patient who had a smartphone ban but they used it for disciplinary stuff because that patient was a cranky teenager at 25 or something.
00:29:27 <mroman> well you can take pictures of the rooms here
00:29:31 <mroman> as long as they're empty
00:29:41 <mroman> some hospitals don't even allow you that
00:29:48 <mroman> which is weird
00:29:51 <mroman> I mean
00:29:58 <mroman> what do you have to hide?
00:30:04 <mroman> or maybe it's a security issue
00:30:39 <b_jonas> mroman: even if the room doesn't have doctors or patients in it, it probably has stuff of other patients, because you're not getting a private room
00:30:59 <mroman> well
00:31:09 <mroman> you just have to be crazy enough and you'll get a private room
00:31:11 <mroman> hurhur
00:31:21 <b_jonas> also it's easier to just ban pictures during the whole hospital without trying to discriminate the finer points
00:31:27 <b_jonas> no, you have to be rich enough for a private room
00:31:32 <mroman> or that
00:31:41 <mroman> luckily I could fake the first and I am the second
00:32:22 <mroman> but I don't use premium privileges from my insurance
00:32:46 <mroman> don't want special treatment even though it would be covered
00:33:15 <mroman> on the other hand you could argue that a 110CHF wasted a month
00:33:34 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68516 * Lebster * (+106) Created page with "I'm '''Lebster''', and I like EsoLangs! == Created Languages == * StupidStackLanguage (work-in-progress)"
00:33:49 <mroman> I just use ear plugs at night and sleep is fine
00:34:11 <mroman> don't care if there are three other people in the room. As long as I can sleep who cares
00:34:16 <mroman> unless they're violent
00:34:19 <mroman> then yeah
00:34:22 <mroman> that's an issue
00:34:46 <b_jonas> mroman: would the special treatment include beds that aren't so terribly uncomfortable to sleep on that I have to put my mattress on the floor and even then can barely sleep, put it back on the bed at dawn before a nurse sees it, all while the doctors explain how important it is for my health to get a good long sleep?
00:34:54 <mroman> 8 Months hospitalisation is definitely my record though.
00:35:11 <mroman> I don't know. Our beds were decent.
00:35:13 <b_jonas> and proper chairs or benches in a place with lighting on which I can read a book?
00:35:18 <mroman> and sometimes I literally slept on the floor anyways
00:35:35 <mroman> but I can sense that hungary isn't as luxurious as switzerland probably
00:36:01 <b_jonas> well the public hospitals really suck
00:36:31 <mroman> mental hospitals generally suck
00:36:31 <b_jonas> though I admit I hate soft mattresses and soft springy bed frames, I've slept on the floor in a hotel for that reason too
00:36:36 <mroman> except for the nice private ones
00:36:39 <mroman> they're great
00:36:49 <mroman> indeed
00:36:59 <b_jonas> yes, mental hospitals generally suck too
00:37:08 <b_jonas> because of the other patients
00:37:09 <mroman> but private ones don't take all the patients
00:37:17 <mroman> just the patients with little ailments
00:37:20 <b_jonas> and because of all the rules that they have to enforce because of the other patients
00:37:20 <mroman> it's a money maker
00:37:22 <mroman> like really
00:37:34 <mroman> insurances pay crazy amounts of money to them due to patients.
00:38:09 <mroman> you can't put a violent patient who routinely trashes the room into a fancy 5 star private clinic with 5k in furniture per room
00:38:19 <mroman> not unless you wanna loose 5k
00:38:41 <mroman> the public ones need to be equipped to deal with the worst of the worst
00:38:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:Lebster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68517 * Lebster * (+0) Created blank page
00:38:57 <mroman> so they treat everybody as the worst of the worst :D
00:38:58 <b_jonas> mroman: which side did you fall on when you got out of the hospital? are you eating all sorts of food with just a spoon, without a fork and knife, because you learned how to do it and are used to, or, on contrary, eating every food with a knife and fork, because you're allowed to?
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00:39:30 <mroman> well... we had knifes
00:39:31 <mroman> so
00:39:37 <mroman> I can't answer that
00:39:48 <b_jonas> that's a weird mental hospital then
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00:39:54 <mroman> there are open wards and closed wards
00:40:03 <mroman> but even on the closed wards you have knifes
00:40:08 <b_jonas> ok
00:40:19 <mroman> see... the trick is that if somebody were to use a knife
00:40:25 <mroman> you just isolate him from other patients
00:40:28 <mroman> problem solved.
00:40:49 <mroman> that's how it's done here
00:41:05 <mroman> if they have any reason to believe you'd use a knife to injure somebody you'll be locked up in isolation
00:41:46 <b_jonas> I don't see how that works, because (1) they can use a knife on themselves, (2) they aren't rich enough to have private isolation rooms for many patients, and (3) it may be too late after they use a knife.
00:42:08 <mroman> you don't let it come to 3.
00:42:25 <mroman> 1) not when in isolation no
00:42:36 <mroman> 2) depends I guess
00:42:43 <mroman> the closed ward here has 3 isolation units.
00:43:02 <b_jonas> maybe I just didn't meet the isolated patients, by definition
00:43:03 <mroman> I mean...
00:43:09 <mroman> violent patients are really rare
00:43:15 <mroman> in the sense of "murderers"
00:43:18 <b_jonas> actually violent ones are rare, sure
00:43:20 <mroman> violent patients aren't rare
00:43:34 <mroman> but "i'm gonna stab you" violent is rather rare
00:43:55 <mroman> so you isolate them or transfer them to a better suited clinic
00:44:03 <b_jonas> yeah
00:44:18 <b_jonas> that's true, they're in a different clinic
00:44:27 <b_jonas> a worse one
00:44:30 <b_jonas> and heavily sedated
00:44:54 <mroman> there are also huge cultural differences
00:44:59 <mroman> some cultures violence is accepted more
00:45:05 <mroman> such as violence to defend your honor or whatever
00:45:15 <mroman> so naturally those countries will have more issues with violent patients
00:45:20 <mroman> swiss are inherently anti-violent.
00:45:50 <b_jonas> hmm
00:46:24 <mroman> I mean
00:46:28 <mroman> no offense to americans
00:46:35 <mroman> but I'd say that americans are more violent than swiss
00:46:41 <mroman> like
00:46:45 <mroman> just the concept of bar fights
00:46:49 <mroman> doesn't exist here
00:47:00 <mroman> there's zero tolerance for that shit
00:47:16 <mroman> if you slap another person in the face
00:47:20 <mroman> you'll get sued
00:47:54 <mroman> unless it's a psychiatrist
00:47:58 <mroman> they can legally slap patients
00:48:03 <kmc> what
00:48:06 <mroman> psychiatrists can do pretty much anything.
00:48:25 <mroman> with the exception of sexual violence and causing death
00:48:34 <mroman> and amputations.
00:48:43 <mroman> those are the three things they are legally not allowed to do
00:49:10 <mroman> other than that they're specifically allowed to do anything.
00:49:49 <mroman> yeah... few people know this...
00:50:00 <mroman> also... psychiatrists generally don't use all the stuff they could do
00:50:11 <mroman> that's probably partly the reason why most people think that they can't do that
00:50:19 <mroman> but they can.
00:50:24 <mroman> they just usually really, really don't.
00:50:40 <mroman> but they have the legal right to.
00:51:11 <mroman> my guess is one of the reasons they don't is because if they would then more people would start reading the law and the law will be changed within a month
00:51:45 <mroman> for as long as they don't do it then people have no reason to read the law and except for a few laywers and whatnot complaining about it
00:51:53 <mroman> the public sees no immediate need to change the laws
00:52:23 <mroman> people are very biased.
00:53:05 <mroman> "You know they could legally slap you?" "That can't be right?" "They can!" "Well, I was never slapped and none of my other inpatients were slapped so I don't think there's a problem"
00:54:37 <mroman> or like "so maybe they could. They never do it." Well, until they do it and you learn that it's legal and that you're fucked.
00:55:05 <mroman> people don't want to bother with problems unless it personally impacted their own lifes.
00:55:55 <mroman> anyway the takehome message is: pretty much all countrie's mental health laws are crap. we need to revise them. Have a good night.
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00:56:25 <b_jonas> good night, mroman
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01:13:16 <zzo38> Now I set up a Fossil repository for TeXnicard: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/ I also set up a NNTP for TeXnicard, described on that web page.
01:13:42 <kmc> one thing i've been learning, while the American healthcare system is fucked up in many ways, every country has some fucked up stuff
01:16:33 <zzo38> Do you like TeXnicard?
01:17:33 <kmc> I have no opinion of TeXnicard
01:17:55 <zzo38> Do you have a opinion of Magic Set Editor?
01:18:55 <zzo38> (Magic Set Editor doesn't support CMYK, I think.)
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02:18:51 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is only if lambda is a macro
02:18:55 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is only if lambda is a macro
02:19:18 <oerjan> fungot: i defer to you as the expert hth
02:19:18 <fungot> oerjan: love this song reminds me of stepbrothers... dang! many props!!!! i love this song is that so good
02:20:05 <oerjan> ^style
02:20:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube*
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02:26:36 <oerjan> hm if i'd read the logs earlier i'd not have needed to ask
02:31:24 <oerjan> `slwd `fetch//s,Ego,Eso,
02:31:28 <HackEso> ​`fetch//`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEso. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
02:45:10 <oerjan> <arseniiv> and this is very inconvenient and it lasts hours <-- have you looked at this remarkable new invention called a "towel" hth
02:45:31 <oerjan> just as well e's not here
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02:58:08 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68519&oldid=68509 * Sporeball * (+359) prove naz's computational class
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03:09:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Lebster * uploaded "[[File:Ssl.png]]"
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03:12:21 <esowiki> [[Naz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68522&oldid=68519 * Sporeball * (-409) fixes
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03:24:53 <zzo38> I read that in Magic: the Gathering, "Creatures with power 5 or more have flying" doesn't work, because the layer system first checks for abilities and then power/toughness. However, I am not so sure. I would think that determining characteristics from text and copiable values always applies. Do you know if it does or not?
03:26:49 <zzo38> I would think that "The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card." means it is like I said.
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03:47:05 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68530&oldid=68528 * Lebster * (+1)
03:49:13 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68531&oldid=68530 * Lebster * (+3010)
03:50:06 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68532&oldid=68531 * Lebster * (+44) /* Implementation */
04:18:52 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68533&oldid=68532 * Lebster * (+32)
04:19:18 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68534&oldid=68533 * Lebster * (+0) /* Truth-Machine */
04:19:51 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68535&oldid=68534 * Lebster * (+0) /* Truth Machine */
04:38:29 <zzo38> Does the new C specification require that 'xy'=='x'*'\1\0'+'y'*'\0\1' for any character "x" and "y"? (Some people said that it is not a valid C syntax, but I don't believe them.)
04:43:00 -!- FreeFull has quit.
04:56:34 <zzo38> (And, if it doesn't, they should fix it so that it does, and furthermore that 'xy' is nonzero and '\0\0' is zero.)
05:13:14 * oerjan concludes from the logs that the channel has _two_ hungarians. the humanity!
05:20:15 <esowiki> [[Convergaptor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68536 * Hakerh400 * (+10446) +[[Convergaptor]]
05:21:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68537&oldid=68504 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Convergaptor]]
05:22:10 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68538&oldid=68014 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Convergaptor]]
05:26:47 <esowiki> [[Convergaptor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68539&oldid=68536 * Hakerh400 * (+47)
05:33:40 <esowiki> [[Convergaptor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68540&oldid=68539 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
05:46:59 <esowiki> [[Category:2020]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68541 * Hakerh400 * (+11) Category for the new year
05:50:26 <esowiki> [[Convergaptor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68542&oldid=68540 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
06:24:50 <esowiki> [[Template:Yearcats]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68543&oldid=58960 * Oerjan * (+59) *Poof*
06:29:28 <zzo38> Why on NMOS 6502 the instructions that seem like they should write to an immediate (according to the pattern of the opcodes) instead read it, causing mainly doing nothing important?
06:41:20 <int-e> . o O ( morning )
06:42:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68544&oldid=68537 * Lebster * (+26) /* S */
06:47:08 <oerjan> mornint-e
06:47:58 <int-e> `? password
06:48:00 <HackEso> The password of the month is only if lambda is a macro
06:48:23 <oerjan> i wonder if the lost submarine gang is about to find out what trogulus was really hiding
06:48:29 <int-e> Ah, good job, fungot.
06:48:29 <fungot> int-e: i've been waiting for one of them i say more to the pilot wanted to say about her career on a&e's new music and film show private sessions. it looks good.
06:48:45 <int-e> oerjan: spoilers.
06:48:59 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68545&oldid=68535 * JonoCode9374 * (+61) /* Examples */
06:49:18 <oerjan> i was wondering after last comic too, although maybe not quite as strongly.
06:50:59 <oerjan> or maybe they'll find out why england is sinking. or both.
06:51:18 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68546&oldid=68545 * JonoCode9374 * (+277) /* Find the Factorial of a Number */
06:58:41 <oerjan> int-e: the spoilers are all in your head. you are feeling sleepy...
07:00:29 <int-e> oerjan: One of these days you'll spoil something significant ;)
07:00:36 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68547&oldid=68546 * Lebster * (+58) Added comment support
07:00:59 <int-e> Rather than merely reminding me how early (timely) GG updates these days.
07:01:31 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68548&oldid=68547 * Lebster * (+14) /* Find the Factorial of a Number */
07:14:52 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68549&oldid=68529 * Lebster * (+37)
07:23:17 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68550&oldid=68548 * Lebster * (+157) Added categories
07:23:32 <int-e> Hmm, did mroman explain his cgi problem further? I guess not... will have to wait for him to turn up again.
07:25:12 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68551&oldid=68549 * Lebster * (+22) /* Languages I like */
07:25:19 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68552&oldid=68551 * Lebster * (+1) /* Languages I like */
07:25:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
07:27:19 <int-e> Oh, I see what the problem is... hmm.
07:36:45 <zzo38> Recently I saw a telephone that you have to wind up. I think what I heard is that the winding causes electricity on the line. Is it possible to get it to work by fixing it so that it will just interrupt the line instead rapidly, or is there other problems such as impedance mismatch or otherwise?
07:38:20 <int-e> @tell mroman The burlesque.cgi should work again... lighthttpd added URL normalization which, if enabled, seems to normalize %2B -> '+' -> ' ' even in query strings. I didn't expect that.
07:38:20 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:41:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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07:42:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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07:57:48 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68553&oldid=68550 * Lebster * (-21) /* Find the Factorial of a Number */
08:06:21 -!- blsqbot has joined.
08:06:51 -!- bunnyocto has joined.
08:32:32 <bunnyocto> !blsq {1 2 3.14159}"Hi: `,009`! `,103`! `;009`1d"bf
08:32:32 <blsqbot> | "Hi: 000000001 112 3.1000000"
08:33:16 <bunnyocto> !blsq {10 '-' 5}"Hi: `R`!"bf
08:33:16 <blsqbot> | "Hi: `R10"
08:33:24 <imode-ruby> happy new year.
08:33:41 <bunnyocto> !blsq {'-' 10 5}"Hi: `R`!"bf
08:33:41 <blsqbot> | "Hi: `R'-"
08:33:49 <bunnyocto> at least it has new fmts now
08:34:29 <bunnyocto> !blsq {'- 10 5}"Hi: `R`!"bf
08:34:30 <blsqbot> | "Hi: 5---------"
08:40:45 <int-e> bunnyocto: I think I fixed the cgi issue (mroman has a message about that)
08:41:32 <int-e> (Maybe if I was hosting more than one cgi... but I'm not.)
08:45:52 <int-e> Ah, it's great to have some fixtures in life. Schlock Mercenary starts the new year with a pun.
08:46:32 <int-e> With lampshading.
08:52:23 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68554&oldid=68553 * Lebster * (+58) added notes & comments
08:54:27 <bunnyocto> !blsq {"Hi"}"`^`s or `s"bf
08:54:27 <blsqbot> | "Hi or Hi"
08:55:57 <bunnyocto> !blsq {3 4}"`! + `! is `m+;`!"bf
08:55:57 <blsqbot> | That line gave me an error
08:56:16 <bunnyocto> !blsq {3 4}"`$`! + `! is `m+;`!"bf
08:56:16 <blsqbot> | "3 + 4 is 7"
08:56:32 <bunnyocto> ok. so I need your help
08:56:41 <bunnyocto> any crazy Ideas you ever had for sprintf or something
08:56:42 <bunnyocto> hit me
08:57:15 <bunnyocto> crazy or useful
08:58:55 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_string_attack comes to mind
08:59:23 <bunnyocto> !blsq {4 0 1}"Smallest three numbers are `<`!, `! and `!"bf
08:59:24 <blsqbot> | "Smallest three numbers are 0, 1 and 4"
08:59:24 <b_jonas> Happy New Year to everyone, including those who use american timezones
08:59:42 <bunnyocto> !blsq {5 4 0 1 6}"Smallest three numbers are `<`!, `! and `!"bf
08:59:43 <blsqbot> | "Smallest three numbers are 0, 1 and 4"
09:01:37 <b_jonas> "<kmc> every country has some fucked up stuff" => welcome to the Real World that's not a perfect utopia
09:01:40 <esowiki> [[ArrowFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68555&oldid=65805 * Lebster * (+0) Corrected typo in table
09:03:39 <b_jonas> int-e: ouch
09:03:45 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68556&oldid=68554 * Lebster * (+0) Moved to 2020 as > 80% of work on implementation and design of language was completed in 2020
09:04:22 <b_jonas> `? password
09:04:24 <HackEso> The password of the month is only if lambda is a macro
09:06:42 <bunnyocto> !blsq {{1 4 -2 3 -10 99}}"Smallest number in `^`B is `m2;`!!"bf
09:06:42 <blsqbot> | "Smallest number in [1, 4, -2, 3, -10, 99] is -10!"
09:09:35 <b_jonas> also happy third year of the Brexit, may it not be the last
09:10:27 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(min([float(v) for v in "1 4 -2 3 -10 99".split()]))
09:10:28 <HackEso> ​-10.0
09:12:20 <bunnyocto> hm. can I circumvent circular imports by adding a third module?
09:12:59 <bunnyocto> probably not .
09:13:49 <kmc> happy New Year
09:24:44 <blsqbot> | Happy New Year
09:24:53 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68557&oldid=68556 * Lebster * (-1) /* Implementation */
09:27:30 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68558&oldid=68557 * Lebster * (+0) /* Implementation */
09:28:23 <bunnyocto> hm
09:28:52 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me
09:28:53 <b_jonas> `prefixes
09:28:54 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
09:28:55 <fungot> HackEso: the flesh of fallen angels thing.anyways i dont think i just can't get over it no one on board
09:28:55 <b_jonas> ^prefixes
09:28:55 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
09:28:58 <b_jonas> `? prefixes
09:28:59 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
09:29:00 <fungot> HackEso: he's the dj
09:29:49 <b_jonas> ^echo hi
09:29:50 <fungot> hi hi
09:30:08 <b_jonas> ^echo `hello
09:30:08 <fungot> `hello `hello
09:30:12 <HackEso> hello, world
09:30:15 <b_jonas> um
09:30:17 <b_jonas> that's alarming
09:30:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: it looks as if fungot and HackEso are listening to each other
09:30:33 <fungot> b_jonas: how can u say ppl died plz
09:33:24 <b_jonas> are we starting the new year with a hearty bot loop?
09:33:43 <b_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/STOP; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\nrm -v /hackenv/bin/botloop'
09:33:45 <HackEso> No output.
09:34:22 <b_jonas> ^def botloop ul (no)S
09:34:22 <fungot> Defined.
09:34:24 <b_jonas> ^botloop
09:34:24 <fungot> no
09:34:31 <b_jonas> ^def botloop ul (`botloop)S
09:34:31 <fungot> Defined.
09:34:36 <b_jonas> ^botloop
09:34:36 <fungot> `botloop
09:34:37 <HackEso> botloop? No such file or directory
09:34:54 <b_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/STOP; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\nrm -v /hackenv/bin/botloop'; chmod -c a+x "$f"
09:34:57 <HackEso> mode of '/hackenv/bin/STOP' changed from 0644 (rw-r--r--) to 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:35:02 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
09:35:27 <b_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/botloop; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\necho no'; chmod -c a+x "$f"
09:35:29 <HackEso> mode of '/hackenv/bin/botloop' changed from 0644 (rw-r--r--) to 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:35:32 <b_jonas> `botloop
09:35:33 <HackEso> no
09:35:35 <b_jonas> `STOP
09:35:37 <HackEso> removed '/hackenv/bin/botloop'
09:35:39 <b_jonas> `botloop
09:35:40 <HackEso> botloop? No such file or directory
09:35:54 <b_jonas> ^def botloop ul (no)S
09:35:54 <fungot> Defined.
09:36:02 <b_jonas> ^botloop
09:36:02 <fungot> no
09:36:19 <b_jonas> ^def botloop ul (`botloop)S
09:36:19 <fungot> Defined.
09:36:36 <b_jonas> everyone, to stop the loop, say: ^def botloop ul (no)S
09:36:40 <b_jonas> everyone, to stop the loop, say: `STOP
09:36:52 <b_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/botloop; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\necho "^botloop"'; chmod -c a+x "$f"
09:36:54 <HackEso> mode of '/hackenv/bin/botloop' changed from 0644 (rw-r--r--) to 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:37:01 <b_jonas> ^botloop
09:37:01 <fungot> `botloop
09:37:04 <HackEso> ​^botloop
09:37:22 <b_jonas> fungot, you can listen to HackEso more than once
09:37:23 <fungot> b_jonas: ahahahahahahha im pretty sure there will be released soon ( yeah i am a hillary clinton looks more like a biker doing ballet, except for gay flight attendants...)
09:37:29 <b_jonas> ^botloop
09:37:29 <fungot> `botloop
09:37:30 <HackEso> ​^botloop
09:37:44 <b_jonas> hmm
09:37:46 <b_jonas> `botloop
09:37:47 <HackEso> ​^botloop
09:38:01 <b_jonas> ah
09:38:13 <int-e> Hah, https://esolangs.org/logs/ looks weird.
09:38:14 <b_jonas> right, HackEso puts a prefix to it
09:38:17 <b_jonas> `STOP
09:38:19 <HackEso> removed '/hackenv/bin/botloop'
09:38:30 <b_jonas> ^def botloop ul (no)S
09:38:30 <fungot> Defined.
09:38:56 <b_jonas> int-e: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-12-31.html#l6b
09:39:03 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:39:19 <b_jonas> check out https://esolangs.org/logs/2020.html as well
09:40:14 <int-e> Did you mean 2021...
09:45:32 <b_jonas> | "hello"Q
09:45:57 <b_jonas> !blsq "hello"Q
09:45:58 <blsqbot> | hello
09:46:28 <b_jonas> !blsq "`hello d"Q
09:46:29 <blsqbot> | `hello d
09:47:49 <b_jonas> `ehco !blsq "hello"Q
09:47:49 <HackEso> ehco? No such file or directory
09:47:54 <b_jonas> `echo !blsq "hello"Q
09:47:55 <HackEso> ​!blsq "hello"Q
09:48:15 <b_jonas> ^ul (!blsq "hello"Q)
09:52:46 <esowiki> [[!!Fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68559 * Lebster * (+1055) Created page with "'''!!Fuck''' is a clone of [[Brainfuck]] that uses varying amounts of !'s to indicate commands. It is a member of the [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] family of programming la..."
09:55:37 <esowiki> [[!!Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68560&oldid=68559 * Lebster * (+672) /* Hello World */
09:57:00 <bunnyocto> I think I broke parsec
09:57:01 <bunnyocto> argh.
09:58:41 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68561&oldid=68552 * Lebster * (+63) /* Created Languages */
10:15:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:17:03 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
10:28:13 <b_jonas> ^ul (!blsq "hello"Q)
10:28:17 <b_jonas> hmm
10:43:47 <esowiki> [[OREO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68562 * Kamish * (+2090) Created page with "<P><b>OREO</b> - esoteric language created by [[User:Kamish|Kamish]]</P> <P>This language is useless as and all my languages lol ;)</P> <P>All programs it is as you cook cooki..."
10:47:32 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68563&oldid=67919 * Kamish * (+33)
10:48:42 <esowiki> [[OREO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68564&oldid=68562 * Kamish * (+0)
10:48:46 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68565&oldid=65881 * YamTokTpaFa * (+147)
10:51:13 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
10:51:22 <b_jonas> break!
10:52:00 <kspalaiologos> greets
10:52:02 <kspalaiologos> I'm back
10:52:09 <b_jonas> hi kspalaiologos
10:52:31 <kspalaiologos> did you take some sleep :p?
10:52:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Kamish * uploaded "[[File:Oreo.jpg]]"
10:53:14 -!- blsqbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:53:18 <kspalaiologos> I thought my bot died
10:53:25 <kspalaiologos> exactly at 00:00
10:53:35 <kspalaiologos> because it stopped logging, but it seems like it's there
10:54:32 <b_jonas> yes, I slept
10:54:45 <b_jonas> then I woke for the Wiener Philharmoniker Neujahrskonzert
10:55:03 -!- bunnyocto has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:55:12 <kspalaiologos> I understand German a bit
10:55:24 <b_jonas> the log bot seems to be there
10:55:28 <kspalaiologos> yeah
10:55:29 <kspalaiologos> weird
10:57:09 <esowiki> [[OREO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68567&oldid=68564 * Kamish * (+35)
10:58:14 <esowiki> [[User:Kamish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68568&oldid=59908 * Kamish * (+13)
10:59:03 <esowiki> [[A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68569&oldid=66824 * Voltage2007 * (-3)
10:59:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:00:00 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68570&oldid=66995 * YamTokTpaFa * (+224) /* Implementations */
11:00:18 <esowiki> [[OREO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68571&oldid=68567 * Kamish * (+0)
11:00:48 <kingoffrance> burning canine related philharmonic new year concert
11:00:59 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68572&oldid=68570 * YamTokTpaFa * (-19) /* External Links */ Link renewed.
11:01:38 -!- mroman has joined.
11:03:26 <esowiki> [[Ases]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68573&oldid=58537 * YamTokTpaFa * (+80) +CATs PLEASE!!!!1!!!!
11:04:20 <esowiki> [[ALPACA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68574&oldid=54705 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) +CAT Languages
11:08:07 -!- subleq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:08:16 <esowiki> [[RELATIONS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68575&oldid=59903 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT Languages ...TBH I need more specifications....
11:11:07 <esowiki> [[BF busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68576&oldid=12053 * YamTokTpaFa * (+96) +WIP, commented your header.
11:11:29 <esowiki> [[BF busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68577&oldid=68576 * YamTokTpaFa * (+89)
11:11:46 <esowiki> [[BF busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68578&oldid=68577 * YamTokTpaFa * (-13)
11:12:15 <esowiki> [[@text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68579&oldid=55383 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23)
11:13:05 <esowiki> [[What a mess!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68580&oldid=57000 * YamTokTpaFa * (+25) STOP MISSING Category:Languages!!!! Gonna be hard to manage your articles!
11:14:29 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68581&oldid=68484 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) WTF! NO CATS!
11:15:29 <esowiki> [[LOLZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68582&oldid=58173 * YamTokTpaFa * (+49) WTF! NO CATS!? HOW DARE YOU!!!!1111111
11:16:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esoteric algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68583 * YamTokTpaFa * (+168) Created page with "== Categorization of this page == How should we categorize this article? --~~~~"
11:16:13 <b_jonas> the break is ending
11:16:40 <esowiki> [[WARP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68584&oldid=45423 * YamTokTpaFa * (+62)
11:17:30 <esowiki> [[SASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68585&oldid=55930 * YamTokTpaFa * (+45)
11:18:27 <esowiki> [[Cappuccino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68586&oldid=57889 * YamTokTpaFa * (+28)
11:18:28 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68587&oldid=68388 * Lebster * (+39) added SSL
11:19:46 <esowiki> [[Aeon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68588&oldid=65365 * YamTokTpaFa * (+2) /* External links */
11:21:08 <esowiki> [[Esoteric Processor/GPU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68589&oldid=44414 * YamTokTpaFa * (+10) +Stub
11:21:42 <esowiki> [[Onov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68590&oldid=47352 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) At least +CAT Languages please!!!!!!!!!!!11
11:22:52 <esowiki> [[GreenBerry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68591&oldid=55412 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23)
11:29:11 <mroman> at least he's not adding links to porn sites
11:29:22 <mroman> and at least he's not spamming this channel with !blsq commands like some other moron
11:29:45 <mroman> int-e: hu @lighthttpd
11:29:49 <mroman> but thx
11:30:05 <mroman> but that does indeed seem very odd like why would it have to manipulate query parameters like that?
11:30:15 <mroman> that sounds illegal.
11:34:07 <int-e> Yeah it's definitely wrong.
11:35:17 <mroman> btw you gave me ssh access to it right?
11:38:40 <mroman> int-e: can you replace the key with https://mroman.ch/PUB.TXT
11:39:44 <kspalaiologos> what's up with the Eso OS project
11:39:46 <kspalaiologos> or Eso Shell
11:40:30 <int-e> mroman: fun comment.
11:40:45 <int-e> mroman: I think I've added it.
11:41:01 <mroman> puttygen created the comment
11:43:12 <mroman> hm.
11:43:20 <mroman> "Server refused our key"
11:51:15 <int-e> mroman: the user name is burlesque
11:52:43 <b_jonas> nice!
11:53:16 <int-e> Oh, the fun of looking at auth.log.
11:54:04 <int-e> "Disconnected from invalid user rpm"
11:55:31 <int-e> But also some puzzling ones... drenthe, misiek, arnfrid, minami, vismara...
11:55:57 <int-e> (the list goes on, obviously)
11:58:41 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
12:00:30 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:00:55 <b_jonas> int-e: do you make ssh claim to allow plain text password login just to collect passwords?
12:01:27 <b_jonas> especially claim to allow plain text password for the user "root" but not actually accept anything?
12:03:03 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
12:04:13 <int-e> b_jonas: No, that's not why.
12:06:55 <int-e> b_jonas: password authentication is enabled because I've used it for non-privileged users. root has a long random password that I don't know.
12:10:30 <b_jonas> yay
12:12:13 <b_jonas> this was a decent one
12:12:19 <b_jonas> now for the three encores
12:12:33 <b_jonas> no wait, not yet
12:12:38 <b_jonas> there's one more before the encores
12:16:58 <int-e> ?
12:19:46 <b_jonas> int-e: Wiener Philharmoniker Neujahrskonzert, live on TV
12:20:01 <b_jonas> it's a New Year tradition to watch it live
12:23:12 <int-e> Ah.
12:23:54 <b_jonas> now it's also an encore
12:24:35 <b_jonas> um
12:24:40 <b_jonas> I mean, now it's actually the encores
12:26:28 <b_jonas> now for the waltz
12:27:49 <b_jonas> Happy New Year, they say
12:30:39 <mroman> oh
12:34:25 <mroman> int-e: I guess it's not longer needed anyway. TIO has Burlesque too
12:34:44 <mroman> so if you don't want to maintain the shell I can just link to TIO
12:37:08 <b_jonas> mroman: in blsq, what is the function that takes a block and an integer index and gets the element from the block at that index?
12:37:24 <mroman> !!
12:37:24 <b_jonas> I have difficulty reading the docs again
12:37:33 <b_jonas> thanks
12:37:51 -!- blsqbot has joined.
12:38:04 <mroman> !blsq "hi there"4!!
12:38:05 <blsqbot> | 'h
12:38:22 <b_jonas> !blsq {"2HBT" "wgJ5" "aB0S" "5v1v"}0!!
12:38:23 <blsqbot> | "2HBT"
12:38:25 <b_jonas> !blsq {"2HBT" "wgJ5" "aB0S" "5v1v"}1!!
12:38:26 <blsqbot> | "wgJ5"
12:38:30 <b_jonas> !blsq {"2HBT" "wgJ5" "aB0S" "5v1v"}0!!
12:38:31 <blsqbot> | "2HBT"
12:38:33 <b_jonas> that works
12:38:51 <b_jonas> and now for the grand finale, the best part
12:39:22 <blsqbot> | "5v1v"
12:39:51 <int-e> mroman: I don't really care either way.
12:39:53 <blsqbot> | wait, blsqbot answers on the channel even if I send the command in a private message?
12:41:35 <b_jonas> mroman: perhaps you want to change that so that it's easier to experiment with the bot without spamming the channel
12:41:52 <blsqbot> | That line gave me an error
12:42:15 <blsqbot> | That line gave me an error
12:42:25 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68592&oldid=68475 * Palaiologos * (+1061) bitop
12:42:42 <kspalaiologos> I've implemented bitops shim in asm2bf
12:42:49 <kspalaiologos> it's terrible but I kinda like it anyways
12:43:09 <b_jonas> is there also a function that indexes the array backwards?
12:43:30 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68593&oldid=68592 * Palaiologos * (+10) hotfix, lol
12:43:39 <mroman> hm.
12:43:44 <mroman> backwards you say
12:44:06 <mroman> you mean like negative indices?
12:44:12 <mroman> -1 being the last element?
12:44:15 <mroman> -2 the second last?
12:44:30 <b_jonas> no, more like (\l i -> l !! (length l - 1 - i))
12:44:42 <b_jonas> so 0 is the index for the last element, 1 for the last but one
12:44:47 <b_jonas> as if you indexed the reverse of the list
12:44:49 <mroman> I mean you can always just reverse it
12:45:03 <mroman> but I don't think there's a builtin for that no
12:45:07 <b_jonas> ok
12:45:21 <b_jonas> !blsq "\""Q
12:45:22 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
12:45:22 <blsqbot> | unexpected end of input
12:45:22 <blsqbot> | expecting "\""
12:45:25 <b_jonas> !blsq """"Q
12:45:26 <blsqbot> |
12:45:26 <blsqbot> | ""
12:45:39 <b_jonas> !blsq `""`Q
12:45:40 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
12:45:40 <blsqbot> | unexpected end of input
12:45:40 <blsqbot> | expecting "\""
12:45:48 <mroman> !blsq "\'"Q
12:45:48 <blsqbot> | "
12:46:01 <mroman> " is \'
12:46:38 <b_jonas> ah
12:46:45 <b_jonas> !blsq "\'"Q
12:46:45 <blsqbot> | "
12:47:23 <b_jonas> !blsq "A\\B\'C'D"
12:47:24 <blsqbot> | "A\\B\"C'D"
12:47:27 <b_jonas> !blsq "A\\B\'C'D"Q
12:47:28 <blsqbot> | A\B"C'D
12:47:38 <mroman> no need to escape \
12:47:42 <mroman> I think
12:47:50 <mroman> !blsq "a\b\c\n"Q
12:47:51 <blsqbot> | a\b\c
12:47:51 <blsqbot> |
12:47:53 <b_jonas> !blsq "A\B\'C'D"Q
12:47:54 <blsqbot> | A\B"C'D
12:47:55 <b_jonas> ok
12:48:00 <b_jonas> !blsq "\"Q
12:48:01 <blsqbot> | \
12:48:22 <b_jonas> !blsq {"A""B"}0!!
12:48:23 <blsqbot> | "A"
12:48:24 <b_jonas> !blsq {"A""B"}1!!
12:48:25 <blsqbot> | "B"
12:48:32 <b_jonas> !blsq {"A""BC"}1!!
12:48:33 <blsqbot> | "BC"
12:48:37 <b_jonas> ok, so I don't need spaces
12:48:41 <mroman> no
12:48:57 <b_jonas> !blsq "\\'"Q
12:48:58 <blsqbot> | \'
12:49:01 <mroman> (You need to escape \ when it's ambigous)
12:49:22 <b_jonas> !blsq2
12:49:26 <b_jonas> !blsq 3
12:49:27 <blsqbot> | 3
12:50:50 <mroman> and a char has no closing '
12:50:59 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 ... 4}si"}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si
12:51:00 <blsqbot> | {"!blsq {" "\"" "\\" "'" "\"" "\"" "\\" "\"" "\"" "'" "\"" "\"" "!blsq {" "\"" "\"" "}{3 0 ... 4}si" "\"" "}{3 0 ... 4}si"}
12:51:15 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 ... 4}siQ"}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}siQ
12:51:16 <blsqbot> | ["!blsq {", "\"", "\\", "'", "\"", "\"", "\\", "\"", "\"", "'", "\"", "\"", "!blsq {", "\"", "\"", "}{3 0 ... 4}siQ", "\"", "}{3 0 ... 4}siQ"]
12:51:24 <b_jonas> no wait, I need a concat there
12:51:55 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 ... 4}si\[Q"}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q
12:51:56 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 ... 4}si\[Q"}{3 0 ... 4}si\[Q
12:51:59 <b_jonas> better
12:52:32 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q"}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q
12:52:33 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q"}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q
12:53:13 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q"}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q
12:53:14 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q"}{3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}si\[Q
12:54:17 <mroman> looks like a quine
12:56:02 <b_jonas> yeah. it's a type of quine that I like to write because it's easy to write in most languages
12:57:11 <b_jonas> !blsq "2 2.+"pe
12:57:12 <blsqbot> | 4
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13:04:29 <mroman> !blsq 3ro1SH
13:04:30 <blsqbot> | "[1,2,3]"
13:05:26 <mroman> !blsq "o3L["ps
13:05:27 <blsqbot> | {__INTERNAL__:BlsqAutoBlock [BlsqIdent "L[",BlsqIdent "L[",BlsqIdent "L["]}
13:05:51 <mroman> such a mess but ok.
13:08:31 <mroman> also
13:08:35 <mroman> !blsq 5hdCl
13:08:36 <blsqbot> | {}
13:08:41 <mroman> !blsq 5hdClL[
13:08:42 <blsqbot> | 1
13:08:46 <mroman> This always confuses the noobs.
13:13:26 <b_jonas> you're saying that like a lot of people learn blsq
13:13:40 <b_jonas> or try to learn, at least
13:13:47 <mroman> sometimes somebody has a look at it
13:13:49 <mroman> but usually...
13:13:52 <mroman> :D
13:14:44 <int-e> mroman: Oh well. https://redmine.lighttpd.net/issues/2999
13:15:01 <mroman> but pretty much nobody
13:15:17 <mroman> I think clock and Hendrik are still golfing in it
13:15:20 <mroman> but that's about it
13:15:26 <mroman> don't know of anybody else using it
13:15:55 <mroman> and almost never need hidden state for golfing.
13:16:41 <mroman> (it's usually more convenient to use the secondary stack I guess)
13:19:10 <mroman> b_jonas: but yeah. having achieved nothing in life. blsq is pretty much my only achievment so I may go overboard a bit with it.
13:20:37 <mroman> so blsq is pretty much my way to leave something in this world people will remember me for, even if it's just very few people.
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14:16:41 <fizzie> b_jonas: Thanks. fungot's manual ignore list doesn't persist automatically and I forgot to set it after restarting it the other day.
14:16:42 <fungot> fizzie: actually i have seen in a few other things probably
14:19:37 <b_jonas> !blsq "3141592")pe
14:19:38 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
14:20:29 <b_jonas> !blsq "3141592"{pe}m[
14:20:31 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
14:21:02 <mroman> you can't call pe on chars
14:21:11 <mroman> I think
14:21:19 <b_jonas> ok
14:21:39 <mroman> ps is not defined for chars
14:21:46 <b_jonas> how do I make a one-element list from a value?
14:21:53 <b_jonas> one-element block I mean
14:21:59 <mroman> !blsq "3141592"XX
14:22:00 <blsqbot> | {'3 '1 '4 '1 '5 '9 '2}
14:22:03 <mroman> like that?
14:22:14 <mroman> !blsq "3141592"XXri
14:22:15 <blsqbot> | {1 1 1 1 1 1 1}
14:22:31 <mroman> or
14:22:52 <mroman> !blsq "3141592"peXX
14:22:53 <blsqbot> | {3 1 4 1 5 9 2}
14:23:52 <mroman> depends on your exact use case
14:24:10 <mroman> !blsq "3141592"riXX
14:24:11 <blsqbot> | {3 1 4 1 5 9 2}
14:25:05 <mroman> !blsq "a48cd"XX)Sh
14:25:06 <blsqbot> | {"a" "4" "8" "c" "d"}
14:29:13 <b_jonas> !blsq "3141592"1co{pe}m[
14:29:14 <blsqbot> | {3 1 4 1 5 9 2}
14:29:50 <b_jonas> oh, that's even better
14:29:54 <b_jonas> 3141592XX
14:29:57 <b_jonas> !blsq 3141592XX
14:29:58 <blsqbot> | {3 1 4 1 5 9 2}
14:30:37 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XX}si\[Q"}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q
14:30:38 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XX}si\[Q"}301200100200300404XX}si\[Q
14:30:46 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XX}si\[Q"}301200100200300404XX}si\[Q
14:30:47 <blsqbot> | {3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}
14:30:47 <blsqbot> | {"\"" "\\" "'" "!blsq {" "}301200100200300404XX}si\\[Q"}
14:31:18 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q"}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q
14:31:19 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q"}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q
14:31:28 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q"}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q
14:31:29 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q"}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q
14:31:42 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q"}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q
14:31:43 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q"}301200100200300404XXsi\[Q
14:31:46 <b_jonas> ok, that's a shorter quine
14:33:22 <b_jonas> [ 5#.3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4
14:33:23 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2331592587604
14:33:38 <b_jonas> !blsq 2331592587604 5dg
14:33:39 <blsqbot> | {3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}
14:33:51 <b_jonas> !blsq 301200100200300404XX
14:33:51 <blsqbot> | {3 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 4}
14:34:49 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q"}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q
14:34:49 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q"}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q
14:34:56 <b_jonas> !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q"}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q
14:34:56 <blsqbot> | !blsq {"\'""\""'""!blsq {""}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q"}2331592587604 5dgsi\[Q
14:36:10 <mroman> !blsq q""
14:36:11 <blsqbot> | {""}
14:36:16 <mroman> not sure if this helps you though
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14:37:23 <b_jonas> !blsq 42 {}j[+
14:37:23 <blsqbot> | {42}
14:37:40 <b_jonas> mroman: is there a shorter way to write {}j[+ ?
14:38:08 <mroman> !blsq 42bx
14:38:09 <blsqbot> | {42}
14:38:10 <b_jonas> a way that works for any type of input value, not just for an integer
14:38:20 <b_jonas> bx thanks
14:38:28 <mroman> if you want to make a block out of a single element then bx
14:38:40 <mroman> !blsq "hi"bx
14:38:40 <blsqbot> | {"hi"}
14:38:46 <b_jonas> yes, that
14:39:38 <b_jonas> and is there one that pops two elements from the stack and puts them in a block of length 2 as well?
14:40:49 <b_jonas> !blsq 30 11 bx+]
14:40:50 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (+]) Invalid arguments!
14:40:50 <blsqbot> | {11}
14:40:50 <blsqbot> | 30
14:40:57 <b_jonas> !blsq 30 11 bxj+]
14:40:58 <blsqbot> | {30 11}
14:41:10 <mroman> I don't think so.
14:42:35 <mroman> !blsq |[5 2 .+ 3 4 .+]|
14:42:36 <blsqbot> | {7 7}
14:42:54 <mroman> maybe this way could be shorter depending on what you're exactly doing
14:43:29 <mroman> unless you only have two numbers on the stack
14:43:32 <mroman> !blsq 30 11Cl
14:43:33 <blsqbot> | {30 11}
14:43:39 <mroman> then you can do this
14:43:47 <b_jonas> um, what are |[ and ]| are they like the postscript [ and ] ?
14:44:26 <mroman> well... compare
14:44:30 <mroman> !blsq {"hi"<-}
14:44:31 <blsqbot> | {"hi" <-}
14:44:32 <mroman> with
14:44:39 <mroman> !blsq |["hi"<-]|
14:44:40 <blsqbot> | {"ih"}
14:44:50 <mroman> {} doesn't evaluate inbetween
14:44:53 <mroman> |[ ]| does
14:44:57 <b_jonas> they look like the postscript [ and ] then
14:45:35 <mroman> technically speaking |[ pushes a marker to the stack and |] collects everything up to that marker
14:45:39 <b_jonas> yes
14:45:39 <mroman> !blsq |[Cl
14:45:40 <blsqbot> | {|[}
14:45:44 <mroman> as you can see here.
14:46:00 <mroman> (the marker that |[ pushes is |[ itself)
14:46:02 <b_jonas> but those can be hard to use in a stack language because you may need annoying temporary variables
14:47:40 <mroman> !blsq 10{q?iq?d}M-
14:47:41 <blsqbot> | {11 9}
14:48:37 <mroman> !blsq 10q?irs
14:48:37 <blsqbot> | That line gave me an error
14:49:17 <mroman> yeh. blsq has many ways to deal with "i need this data later" or "don't destroy this during temporary calculations"
14:49:26 <mroman> most obvious one would be using variables
14:49:39 <mroman> but there's also stuff like M-, rs and C! etc.
14:49:59 <mroman> or secondary stack, hidden state (usable but not recommended)
14:50:27 <b_jonas> what is rs ? it doesn't seem to be in the reference
14:51:20 <b_jonas> is there an index to the reference that is sorted by command name (or name of the token for things that aren't commands)?
14:51:49 <mroman> ah probably not
14:52:04 <mroman> currently the "best" documentation is the moonpage+the language reference combined
14:52:12 <mroman> I'm working towards documenting everything in the moonpage
14:52:26 <mroman> https://mroman.ch/burlesque/docs/BLSQ.html#blockaccess
14:53:34 <b_jonas> !blsq 10q?
14:53:35 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 5):
14:53:35 <blsqbot> | unexpected end of input
14:53:38 <b_jonas> !blsq 10q
14:53:38 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:53:38 <blsqbot> | unexpected end of input
14:53:38 <blsqbot> | expecting white space, "o", "begin asm", "begin lisp", "fancy", "%", "set", "g", "get", "s", "S", "call", "proc", "m{", "f{", "r{", "q", "{", "\"", "-", digit, "'", "(", "y", "k", "`" or "``"
14:53:46 <mroman> q is a prefix
14:54:56 <mroman> a syntax prefix to be precise
14:55:00 <mroman> it's neither a special nor a modifier
14:55:07 <b_jonas> but aren't the prefixes ) and : and @
14:55:48 <mroman> Those are in BLSQ-Terminology called specials
14:56:29 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}")"ps(?i)[+e!
14:56:29 <blsqbot> | {2 3 4 5}
14:56:35 <mroman> so ) is not a syntax prefix
14:56:38 <mroman> q is a syntax prefix
14:56:39 <b_jonas> this language is confusing
14:56:52 <mroman> ) is a special and a runtime prefix
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14:58:19 <mroman> !blsq ")?i"ps
14:58:20 <blsqbot> | {) ?i}
14:58:27 <b_jonas> !blsq 7rz
14:58:28 <blsqbot> | {0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7}
14:58:48 <b_jonas> !blsq 7rz{}m[
14:58:49 <blsqbot> | {0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7}
14:59:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:00:45 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
15:01:21 <mroman> !blsq {1 2}{.+}rs
15:01:21 <blsqbot> | {3}
15:01:35 <mroman> runstack is basically an eval with a predefined stack
15:01:39 <mroman> unlike e!
15:01:59 <mroman> !blsq 1 2{Cl}e!
15:02:00 <blsqbot> | {1 2}
15:02:05 <mroman> vs
15:02:13 <mroman> !blsq 1 2{3 4}{Cl}rs
15:02:15 <blsqbot> | {{4 3}}
15:02:15 <blsqbot> | 2
15:02:15 <blsqbot> | 1
15:02:52 <mroman> hm
15:02:59 <mroman> !blsq 1 2{3 4}{it}rs
15:03:00 <blsqbot> | {3}
15:03:00 <blsqbot> | 2
15:03:00 <blsqbot> | 1
15:03:14 <mroman> the top of the stack for rs is on the left apparentely
15:04:33 <mroman> there's also
15:04:44 <mroman> !blsq 5{2?*}GZ
15:04:45 <blsqbot> | {0 2 4 6 8 10}
15:04:59 <mroman> rz{...}m[ is basically GZ
15:05:03 <b_jonas> !blsq 31415XX
15:05:04 <blsqbot> | {3 1 4 1 5}
15:05:15 <b_jonas> !blsq 31415XX {J}m[
15:05:15 <blsqbot> | {3 3 1 1 4 4 1 1 5 5}
15:06:59 <b_jonas> !blsq 31415XXe!
15:06:59 <blsqbot> | 5
15:06:59 <blsqbot> | 1
15:06:59 <blsqbot> | 4
15:07:10 <b_jonas> !blsq 2
15:07:11 <blsqbot> | 2
15:07:13 <b_jonas> !blsq 3vv
15:07:13 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
15:08:19 <b_jonas> mroman: what's the foreach function, which takes a list block and a code block, and for each element of the list block, pushes it to the stack then runs the code block?
15:08:58 <mroman> you mean like uhm
15:09:07 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3})?ip^
15:09:08 <blsqbot> | 2
15:09:08 <blsqbot> | 3
15:09:08 <blsqbot> | 4
15:09:42 <mroman> but basically this is just a map followed by "push elements to stack"
15:10:05 <mroman> but what's exactly the difference between map and foreach?
15:10:06 <b_jonas> ok
15:10:24 <mroman> so that you have access to past results?
15:10:29 <b_jonas> mroman: map collects the results from the stack into an array
15:11:01 <mroman> ah. there's no foreach. But you can do m[ followed by p^ or ^p depending on what order you want
15:11:06 <b_jonas> ok
15:11:09 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{++}pa
15:11:10 <blsqbot> | {1 3 6 10}
15:11:19 <mroman> and maybe use pa in some cases I don't know
15:11:33 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3 4}{?i}pa
15:11:34 <blsqbot> | {{2} {2 3} {2 3 4} {2 3 4 5}}
15:11:50 <b_jonas> !blsq 17 50 #a #b `a
15:11:50 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Can't load non hidden state! Sorry.
15:11:50 <blsqbot> | 50
15:12:28 <b_jonas> what is the syntax to store to a named variable and load from it?
15:12:52 <mroman> !blsq %foobar=5 %foobar?
15:12:53 <blsqbot> | 5
15:13:01 <mroman> if it's a constant
15:13:06 <mroman> otherwise:
15:13:16 <b_jonas> I want to pop the value from the stack
15:13:20 <mroman> !blsq 5?i"foobar"sv %foobar?
15:13:21 <blsqbot> | 6
15:13:28 <mroman> sv is "setvar"
15:13:44 <b_jonas> !blsq 17 50 "a"sv "b"sv %a? %a?
15:13:45 <blsqbot> | 50
15:13:45 <blsqbot> | 50
15:13:54 <b_jonas> and are there shortcuts for a few short variables?
15:14:03 <b_jonas> !blsq 17 50 "a"sv "a"sv %a? %a?
15:14:04 <blsqbot> | 17
15:14:04 <blsqbot> | 17
15:14:08 <mroman> yep there are
15:14:20 <mroman> !blsq 5?is0"haha"g0
15:14:21 <blsqbot> | 6
15:14:21 <blsqbot> | "haha"
15:14:42 <b_jonas> !blsq 17 50 s0 s1 g0 g0
15:14:43 <blsqbot> | 50
15:14:43 <blsqbot> | 50
15:14:44 <b_jonas> !blsq 17 50 s0 s0 g0 g0
15:14:45 <blsqbot> | 17
15:14:45 <blsqbot> | 17
15:14:47 <b_jonas> where is the documented?
15:15:14 <mroman> there are s0 up to s9 for set and g0 to g9 for get.
15:15:25 <mroman> I don't think they were documented.
15:15:29 <mroman> or maybe they were
15:15:35 <mroman> but lref.html is a recovered old version
15:15:44 <b_jonas> !blsq %a={10.*} |[ 4 %a! 2 %a! ]|
15:15:45 <blsqbot> | {40 20}
15:16:01 <b_jonas> are there shortcuts for running a named variable too?
15:16:13 <b_jonas> !blsq {10.*}s0 |[ 4 e0 2 e0 ]|
15:16:14 <blsqbot> | {4 ERROR: Unknown command: (e0)! 2 ERROR: Unknown command: (e0)!}
15:16:16 <b_jonas> !blsq {10.*}s0 |[ 4 c0 2 c0 ]|
15:16:17 <blsqbot> | {4 ERROR: Unknown command: (c0)! 2 ERROR: Unknown command: (c0)!}
15:16:19 <b_jonas> !blsq {10.*}s0 |[ 4 r0 2 r0 ]|
15:16:20 <blsqbot> | {4 {0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 8
15:16:23 <mroman> !blsq {10.*}so 3G0
15:16:24 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (G0)!
15:16:24 <blsqbot> | 3
15:16:24 <blsqbot> | 1
15:16:36 <b_jonas> !blsq {10.*}s0 |[ 4 G0 2 G0 ]|
15:16:37 <blsqbot> | {4 ERROR: Unknown command: (G0)! 2 ERROR: Unknown command: (G0)!}
15:16:49 <mroman> hm.
15:16:59 <mroman> !blsq {10.*}S0 3g0
15:17:00 <blsqbot> | {10 .*}
15:17:00 <blsqbot> | 3
15:17:00 <blsqbot> | {10 .*}
15:17:07 <mroman> nope I don't think so
15:17:17 <b_jonas> hmm
15:19:17 <b_jonas> are there builtins to load or store a single value deep in the stack, by depth?
15:19:46 <b_jonas> pick and pock
15:21:05 <mroman> not that I know
15:21:17 <mroman> except using Cl<index>!!
15:21:25 <mroman> or something like that
15:21:51 <b_jonas> I see
15:22:01 <mroman> but that's a trivially addable one :D
15:22:11 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if those are what I want anyway
15:22:22 <b_jonas> I don't know what I want, it's a strange language, works in strange ways
15:22:27 <mroman> oh wait
15:22:30 <mroman> there's mv
15:22:43 <mroman> or MV
15:22:46 <mroman> or something like that
15:23:10 <mroman> yep. it's in the lref.html under MV with the name "Move"
15:23:13 <mroman> but it moves the element
15:23:23 <b_jonas> !blsq |[ 'a'b'c'd'e'f 4MV ]|
15:23:24 <blsqbot> | {'a 'c 'd 'e 'f 'b}
15:23:39 <b_jonas> is there an unmove that hides the element back?
15:25:35 <mroman> Can't remember one and I can't find something that would look like that in the source code
15:25:59 <mroman> you're free to request one through the github issues tho
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15:26:31 <b_jonas> ok
15:27:34 <mroman> there's an XSwap for some cases
15:27:39 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3x/
15:27:40 <blsqbot> | 1
15:27:40 <blsqbot> | 3
15:27:40 <blsqbot> | 2
15:27:44 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3x/x/
15:27:44 <blsqbot> | 2
15:27:44 <blsqbot> | 1
15:27:44 <blsqbot> | 3
15:27:48 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3x/x/x/
15:27:48 <blsqbot> | 3
15:27:48 <blsqbot> | 2
15:27:48 <blsqbot> | 1
15:28:04 <mroman> hm. nope. not even that.
15:28:17 <mroman> !blsq 1 2 3o4x/
15:28:18 <blsqbot> | 1
15:28:18 <blsqbot> | 3
15:28:18 <blsqbot> | 2
15:28:31 <b_jonas> is there a way to set an element of a block by index, whether in place or by getting a copy of the block?
15:28:42 <mroman> there's a setat builtin
15:28:53 <mroman> "sa"
15:29:15 <b_jonas> !bldq "hello"XX
15:29:23 <b_jonas> !blsq "hello"XX
15:29:23 <blsqbot> | {'h 'e 'l 'l 'o}
15:29:29 <b_jonas> !blsq "hello"XX 'a1sa
15:29:29 <blsqbot> | {'h 'a 'l 'l 'o}
15:29:52 <b_jonas> !blsq "hello"XX 9 2.+bx1sa
15:29:53 <blsqbot> | {'h {11} 'l 'l 'o}
15:29:56 <b_jonas> ok, that works
15:30:54 <mroman> there's also d! and D! for nested blocks
15:31:24 <mroman> !blsq {"abc""def"}{1 0}d!
15:31:25 <blsqbot> | 'd
15:31:44 <mroman> !blsq {{'a'b'c}{'d'e'f}}{1 0}d!
15:31:45 <blsqbot> | 'd
15:31:49 <mroman> bla
15:32:11 <b_jonas> what other methods are there that you can do on named variables, besides "v"vs %v= %v? %v!
15:32:23 <b_jonas> I mean "v"sv %v= %v? %v!
15:32:46 <b_jonas> are there other suffixes for %v
15:33:22 <b_jonas> !blsq 41 10 'asv 'bsv 'agv 'agv
15:33:23 <blsqbot> | 10
15:33:23 <blsqbot> | 10
15:33:36 <b_jonas> oh, that can work
15:33:38 <mroman> uhm... that depends on what mode
15:33:46 <mroman> in fancy mode there's also "set X to Y"
15:33:52 <mroman> stuff like that
15:33:57 <mroman> there's also scoping rules btw
15:34:30 <b_jonas> sv and gv don't seem to be in the reference or the moon
15:34:57 <mroman> yeah
15:35:00 <mroman> the reference is OLD
15:35:11 <mroman> and the moonpage i started from scratch but I haven't come too far yet
15:35:29 <mroman> there are also many more map shortcuts and stuff
15:35:31 <mroman> and things like
15:35:39 <b_jonas> is there one that appends to a variable (when that variable contains a block)?
15:35:48 <mroman> !blsq {1 2 3}m{3?*}
15:35:48 <blsqbot> | {3 6 9}
15:36:01 <mroman> no
15:36:04 <b_jonas> scoping rules?
15:36:05 <mroman> nothing directly works on variables
15:36:10 <mroman> you'll have to get and set
15:36:15 <mroman> blsq has scopes yes.
15:36:25 <mroman> blsq has function scopes to be specific
15:37:55 <b_jonas> why am I trying to figure all this out again?
15:37:59 <b_jonas> I don't know
15:38:06 <mroman> !blsq %____FILE?
15:38:06 <blsqbot> | "/dev/irc"
15:38:15 <mroman> !blsq nmPp%___FILE?
15:38:15 <blsqbot> | _|_
15:38:36 <mroman> !blsq nmPp%___FILE?P_%__FILE?
15:38:37 <blsqbot> | _|_
15:38:37 <blsqbot> | _|_
15:38:41 <mroman> !blsq nmPp%___FILE?P_%___FILE?
15:38:42 <blsqbot> | _|_
15:38:42 <blsqbot> | _|_
15:38:45 <mroman> hm.
15:40:14 <mroman> !blsq 9s0nmPp8s0g0P_g0
15:40:15 <blsqbot> | 9
15:40:15 <blsqbot> | 8
15:40:44 <mroman> in one scope 0 is bound to 9 and in the other it is bound to 8
15:41:07 <mroman> i.e. when you call an actual function you enter a new scope
15:45:19 <mroman> !blsq fancy def hi: \set X to {9} bar() \get X end def bar: \set X to {10} \get X end end %hi!
15:45:19 <blsqbot> | 9
15:45:19 <blsqbot> | 10
15:45:22 <mroman> there you go
15:45:41 <mroman> in the scope of bar X is 10 in the scope of hi it's 9
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15:46:12 <mroman> unless you cheat
15:52:50 <mroman> !blsq fancy def hi: \set X to {9} bar() \get X end def bar: \P_ \set X to {10} \nm \Pp end end %hi!
15:52:51 <blsqbot> | 10
15:53:02 <mroman> like that. Now you've altered X in the scope of bar to 10
15:53:29 <mroman> it's not recommended to alter to callee's scope but you can
15:53:48 <mroman> huge code smell
15:53:51 <mroman> if this were serious programming
15:54:04 <mroman> but this is interesting
15:54:08 <mroman> !blsq set 0 to 5
15:54:09 <blsqbot> | 5
15:54:09 <blsqbot> | "Int"
15:54:09 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (t )!
15:54:17 <mroman> !blsq set 0 to {5}
15:54:18 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
15:54:24 <mroman> !blsq set 0 to {5} g0
15:54:25 <blsqbot> | 5
15:54:36 <mroman> hm.
15:54:53 <mroman> fuck blsq grammar
15:54:54 <mroman> insane
15:58:23 <mroman> b_jonas: you can actually use call to call functions
15:58:31 <mroman> !blsq %f={?i} 5 call f
15:58:32 <blsqbot> | 6
16:06:29 <mroman> !blsq (%=5)
16:06:30 <blsqbot> | __INTERNAL__:BlsqAssign "" (BlsqInt 5) False False
16:07:04 <mroman> using () is a good way to inspect what's going on behind the scenes
16:07:09 <mroman> !blsq (%f^)
16:07:10 <blsqbot> | __INTERNAL__:BlsqCall "f" True
16:07:11 <mroman> vs
16:07:16 <mroman> !blsq (%f?)
16:07:17 <blsqbot> | __INTERNAL__:BlsqGet "f"
16:07:18 <mroman> vs.
16:07:23 <mroman> !blsq (%f!)
16:07:24 <blsqbot> | __INTERNAL__:BlsqCall "f" False
16:10:51 <mroman> the boolean for call determines whether a new scope should be created
16:12:20 <mroman> and command of the year since 7 years is ^/ (DupSwap)
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17:16:06 <esowiki> [[Marz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68594 * SoundOfScripting * (+4264) Began specification (still a bit unorganized)
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19:49:13 <esowiki> [[Marz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68595&oldid=68594 * SoundOfScripting * (+6159)
19:49:59 <esowiki> [[Marz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68596&oldid=68595 * SoundOfScripting * (+3) Moved "//Adding more later. Need a break." out of wikitable
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20:38:44 <zzo38> I would thought a better way to implement pictures in HTML would have been <a href="..." inline="2"> where the "inline" attribute is a hint (not a requirement) to make it inline, depending on the user settings, where 0 is the default and means not inline, 1 or 2 means inline depending on the threshold specified by the user (at least 1, at least 2, or never).
20:39:50 <esowiki> [[User:SoundOfScripting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68597&oldid=65760 * SoundOfScripting * (+82) Added [[Marz]]
20:40:10 <zzo38> For icons, a different way would be used, which is a "icon" attribute on a <a> or <input> element. If the browser is willing and able to display the icon and the user has enabled it, then the icon is displayed instead of the text that it contains (for <a> or <input type="submit"> or <input type="reset">).
20:40:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68598&oldid=68544 * SoundOfScripting * (+11) /* M */ Added [[Marz]]
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21:10:14 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68599&oldid=68558 * Lebster * (+4) changed wording
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21:47:44 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68600&oldid=68599 * Lebster * (+169) /* Examples */
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22:14:36 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68601&oldid=68600 * Lebster * (+567) Added calculator script
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22:25:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BN * New user account
22:34:36 <int-e> Oh, my lighttpd bug report got a reaction and a proposed patch :)
22:37:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68602&oldid=68515 * BN * (+349)
22:40:24 <zzo38> What bug report is that?
22:42:19 <int-e> zzo38: https://redmine.lighttpd.net/issues/2999 ...
22:45:34 <zzo38> OK
22:51:07 <zzo38> My character in the GURPS has five eyes, sharp beak, antennas, scales, feathers to fly, four fingers instead of five, spit poison, and eat blood. What will such monstrous creature be called and how to make up the language based on such physiology? Maybe the former question can be answered by first figuring out the latter question and then making the words into Old English and then into modern English from that.
22:56:58 <kingoffrance> it seems a chimerical hippogriffin sphinx-ish with some "five eyes" intelligence agencies thrown in
22:57:13 <kingoffrance> beak is perhaps horus IIRC
22:57:17 <kingoffrance> the rest i dunno
22:57:45 <kingoffrance> i dunno, i think if you just merge other things, the end result is monstrous
22:58:13 <kingoffrance> or at least, to the medieval mind, such multi-part things are either freak animals and/or gods
22:58:52 <kingoffrance> i mean find creatures with each individual characteristic, or nethack some creatures use "scientific names" (or pseudo-sounding anyways)
22:59:08 <kingoffrance> arguably anything in latin probably sounds more serious
22:59:30 <zzo38> I am not a biologist and do not know how to make up these "scientific names"
23:00:14 <zzo38> But, that can be a possibility, I suppose. (I don't know so much Latin either)
23:00:30 <kingoffrance> that is a problem i had with introduction to biology class in school: i thought the categories were arbitrary, why memorize them, why not learn the scientific names? they did finally almost admit as such
23:00:54 <kingoffrance> i.e. that things sometimes get "moved" when a better "fit", or when most of a prior group is gone, then it makes less sense to have only a few things still around, etc.
23:01:19 <kingoffrance> so ive always been in favor of enumerating all the characteristics and then working out "groupings" afterwards
23:01:25 <kingoffrance> rather than trying to shove into a group first
23:02:04 <kingoffrance> i dont, but looking up english in dictionaries should provide pointers
23:02:08 <kingoffrance> s/i dont/i dont either/
23:03:34 <kingoffrance> i should say, i thought the specie names made more sense to learn; the other hierarchy names is also somewhat "scientific" so "scientific names" probably applies to them all
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01:46:14 <zzo38> They can speak English too, although perhaps not as well as human speeching English, since English is a human speech. (Also humans speeching their language won't as well either)
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02:19:12 <oerjan> huh HackEso fell off fungot's ignore list?
02:19:12 <fungot> oerjan: yea. i was talking about here, habsheim air show
02:20:03 <oerjan> oh well it seems the ZWSP stops it
02:20:13 <oerjan> `echo fungot
02:20:14 <fungot> oerjan: smoz, you still you don't feature charlie in your videos more, and several others convicted of man slaughter
02:20:18 <HackEso> fungot
02:20:27 <oerjan> apparently has been fixed
02:20:58 <oerjan> ^style ct
02:20:58 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
02:41:56 <oerjan> <b_jonas> it's a New Year tradition to watch it live <-- he's probably exempt from being austrian
02:42:45 <oerjan> i'm exempt from not watching tv and being asleep
02:44:20 <oerjan> although i do remember it. as well as the ski jumps in garmish-partenkirchen, do they still do that?
02:44:35 <oerjan> *+c
02:44:56 <oerjan> apparently.
02:49:57 <kmc> fungot: happy new year
02:49:57 <fungot> kmc: but, we are far outnumbered! okay! no...! help!
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03:06:33 <oerjan> <kingoffrance> arguably anything in latin probably sounds more serious <-- itym "QVIDQVID LATINE DICTVM SIT, ALTVM VIDETVR" hth
03:15:04 <kmc> ++
03:17:27 <esowiki> [[Tier]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68603 * BN * (+10377) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:BN]] |name=Tier |year=[[:Category:2020]] |typesys= |memsys=stack-based |class=:Category:Turing complete|Turing comple..."
03:19:22 <zzo38> I think it should be Latin if you are writing in Latin, and if you are making up new words in English then probably it should be English instead (unless there are no suitable word, perhaps)
03:23:44 <zzo38> Of course, there are a lot of Latin words in English anyways, but English has its own words, too.
03:24:57 <esowiki> [[User:BN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68604 * BN * (+96) Created page with "Hello there. Hi my name is Brian, and I created the [[Tier]] programming language, check it out!"
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03:29:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68605&oldid=68598 * BN * (+11)
03:29:51 <esowiki> [[Tier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68606&oldid=68603 * BN * (+5)
03:30:35 <zzo38> (There are words from many language used in English. And it seems much more rarely, some people just make up a word from nothing, perhaps "cromulent" is such thing)
03:30:42 <zzo38> (and it is listed in Wiktionary)
03:32:32 <kmc> yes, it was made up to sound like a real word but is "intentionally morphologically opaque"
03:33:13 <kmc> unlike "embiggen" which is a humorous example of a standard construction
03:34:48 <esowiki> [[Tier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68607&oldid=68606 * BN * (+18)
03:35:08 <kmc> there are various attempts to keep Latin up to date and usable in the modern world
03:35:23 <kmc> and even a Vicipaedia: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicipaedia:Pagina_prima
03:35:52 <zzo38> Yes, I think it is not so bad that you can continue to read/write Latin.
03:36:44 * kmc clicks "Pagina fortuita" a few times
03:37:02 <kmc> zzo38: it seems good to me, and definitely esoteric
03:38:40 <kmc> I am interested in mycology, which involves learning a lot of species names
03:38:48 <kmc> so it is nice to know a few latin words
03:39:12 <zzo38> Yes, it is good to learn many things, Latin and otherwise.
03:39:37 <kmc> one complication is that they keep moving the fungi around to different genera
03:39:50 <kmc> as DNA testing reveals that two things thought to be closely related aren't really, or vice versa
03:39:59 <kmc> so a lot of mushrooms have got many different historical names
03:41:24 <zzo38> Yes, I think I read about that
03:42:02 <kmc> it's only recently that DNA sequencing has become cheap enough to sequence lots of obscure mushrooms that aren't of direct importance to humanity
03:42:12 <kmc> zzo38: do you like mushrooms? looking for them can be fun
03:42:41 <zzo38> I don't like to eat mushrooms, but otherwise neutral
03:42:52 <kmc> I have been looking around the city for mushrooms every day
03:43:00 <kmc> i always find plenty of different kinds
03:43:09 <kmc> although rarely ones which are worth eating
03:43:22 <kmc> my wife made some yellow dye for wool and silk out of mushrooms
03:47:51 <zzo38> Do you know much of linguistics of non-human physiology?
03:53:09 <oerjan> . o O ( it's on the tip of my tongues )
03:59:47 <kingoffrance> i know nothing of mushrooms, but i chop them up and put in soup, on sandwiches, etc. i am pro-mushroom despite being a noob
04:00:26 <kingoffrance> i of course just purchase at store, i dont go hunting
04:01:08 <kingoffrance> i dont think i would eat them alone though
04:15:48 <kingoffrance> pizza of course
04:16:06 <kmc> zzo38: no
04:16:26 <zzo38> OK
04:16:29 <kmc> mushrooms are good on pizza
04:16:32 <kmc> or pasta
04:16:35 <kmc> or lots of other things
04:16:43 <kmc> i had an amazing mushroom risotto last weekend
04:16:50 <kmc> at a fancy french place my girlfriend took me to
04:18:33 <kmc> i don't eat mushrooms raw though
04:18:35 <kmc> it's not safe
04:19:01 <kmc> even for common button mushrooms from the store it's said to cause increased risk of cancer (but what isn't)
04:19:11 <kmc> more to the point though the taste and texture is nasty when they are not cooked
04:19:29 <kmc> a good way to cook mushrooms is to slice them, heat them in a dry pan to get rid of some of the water, then sautee them in butter
04:34:13 <imode-ruby> I see you saw the same video I did today lmao.
04:34:25 <imode-ruby> use water to sautee them.
04:36:32 <kmc> did I?
04:36:41 <kmc> i learned that from Mushrooms Demystified
04:36:46 <kmc> a book by David Arora
04:37:08 <kmc> and i'm not sure that sauteeing things in water is possible
04:37:08 <imode-ruby> america's test kitchen has a video about cooking mushrooms.
04:37:16 <kmc> cool
04:37:28 <imode-ruby> got recommended to me.
04:37:45 <imode-ruby> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLPLCmwBLBY this one.
05:16:22 <kmc> here's another word which sounds like a Simpsons joke, but it's actually from the title of an ancient Roman political satire https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pumpkinification
05:19:18 <int-e> fungot: Do you think 13 barrels are possible?
05:19:18 <fungot> int-e: you! take! we find!
05:19:27 <int-e> ^style
05:19:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
05:19:38 <int-e> ^style ct
05:19:38 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
05:20:56 <int-e> (context is http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/January2020.html )
07:00:56 <zzo38> I have heard of a computer with speech once misinterpreted someone's middle initial as a number. Their middle initial was M; do any kings or popes or someone else using numbers in this way have that many?
07:03:05 <kingoffrance> fungot: why cant i play ct as spekkio? what kind of open-ended multiple endings gameplay is that?
07:03:05 <fungot> kingoffrance: i must ponder this turn of events, it can have a powerful effect on time. ask the one to bring back lost loved ones... it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes. no.
07:04:08 <int-e> https://twitter.com/OtherDanOBrien/status/1210741711313354752 is cool
07:07:29 <kingoffrance> well, he's considering it
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07:50:08 <esowiki> [[If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68608&oldid=63873 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24)
07:51:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68609&oldid=39434 * YamTokTpaFa * (+42) +Unsigned
07:52:38 <esowiki> [[AmBored]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68610&oldid=54826 * YamTokTpaFa * (+59) WHY THE HELL DON'T YOU CATEGORIZE AT ALL!
07:53:03 <esowiki> [[Warp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68611&oldid=42552 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24)
07:54:36 <esowiki> [[BitP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68612&oldid=52503 * YamTokTpaFa * (+49)
07:55:03 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68613&oldid=44804 * YamTokTpaFa * (+55)
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08:39:08 <zzo38> All The Tropes says the official motto of Hells Angels is "When we do right, nobody remembers. When we do wrong, nobody forgets." However, I could not find that on Wikipedia or elsewhere. Do you know if it is true or not?
08:44:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
08:51:43 <myname> maybe they did right
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11:38:26 <esowiki> [[Comp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68614 * Hex96 * (+1334) Created page with "comp is an esolang by [[User:Hex96|Hex]]. it is stack based. ==commands== <pre> # print the top value on the stack in ascii. print the top value on the stack as a number...."
11:38:49 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68615&oldid=68503 * Hex96 * (+11) /* List of esolangs */
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12:16:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68616&oldid=68605 * Hex96 * (+11) /* C */
12:19:42 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68617&oldid=68581 * Hex96 * (+105) /* Examples */
12:20:18 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68618&oldid=68617 * Hex96 * (+18)
12:20:41 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68619&oldid=68618 * Hex96 * (+7)
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14:03:08 <esowiki> [[Comp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68620&oldid=68614 * A * (+89) WHY THE HELL DON'T YOU CATEGORIZE AT ALL!
14:11:19 <kspalaiologos> he's back
14:11:21 <kspalaiologos> lmao
14:11:45 <myname> he always will be, i guess
14:12:04 <myname> i don't understand why he's so destructive
14:20:05 <int-e> I'm imagining a grumpy old man of 13 years of age... :)
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14:26:33 <wib_jonas> int-e: he's a BBC Norvegian village
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15:18:51 <wib_jonas> fizzie: in HackEso, can you please install the packages {unzip, zip, p7zip} so we can extract compressed archives more easily? this caused us some difficulty at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-07.html#lVmb , so those utils would help. and they're not big.
15:19:42 <wib_jonas> `? interps
15:19:43 <wib_jonas> `? ibin
15:19:43 <HackEso> interps? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:19:45 <HackEso> ibin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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15:20:49 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: /hackenv/interps also has some directories in which interpreter stuff are installed, so you can create a directory there too rather than lib if you prefer
15:21:28 <kspalaiologos> mkay
15:21:30 <kspalaiologos> wait
15:21:36 <kspalaiologos> ``` ls /hackenv/lib/kps
15:21:38 <HackEso> bconv \ bfasm \ bfi \ bfi-rle \ bfintd \ bfmake \ bfpp \ derle.pl \ labels.pl \ strip.pl
15:21:48 <wib_jonas> I didn't remember this a few days ago when you asked for a directory, because lib and share are the more standard unixy thing, whereas interps was some old style HackEgo EgoBot emulation thing
15:22:03 <kspalaiologos> ``` cp /hackenv/lib/kps/bfi /hackenv/interps/
15:22:12 <kspalaiologos> now
15:22:14 <HackEso> No output.
15:22:17 <kspalaiologos> how do you use it
15:22:19 <kspalaiologos> `bfi
15:22:20 <HackEso> Usage: bfi src.b
15:22:28 <kspalaiologos> not surprised
15:22:36 <kspalaiologos> `ls
15:22:36 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
15:22:39 <kspalaiologos> `bfi output.b
15:22:40 <HackEso> Hello World!
15:22:43 <kspalaiologos> c00l
15:23:22 <fizzie> `` which zip; which unzip; which p7zip
15:23:23 <HackEso> ​/usr/bin/zip \ /usr/bin/unzip \ /usr/bin/p7zip
15:23:24 <fizzie> wib_jonas: Done.
15:23:33 <wib_jonas> thanks
15:25:33 <wib_jonas> fizzie: oops, it seems the 7z utility is in the p7zip-full package. debian is confusing with its nice fine-grained packages.
15:26:09 <wib_jonas> I thought p7zip-full was the GUI component -- nope
15:26:22 <fizzie> Right. It was on the recommended list. Added that as well.
15:26:28 <wib_jonas> thanks
15:26:30 <wib_jonas> ``` 7z
15:26:31 <HackEso> ​ \ 7-Zip [64] 16.02 : Copyright (c) 1999-2016 Igor Pavlov : 2016-05-21 \ p7zip Version 16.02 (locale=C,Utf16=off,HugeFiles=on,64 bits,1 CPU QEMU Virtual CPU version 2.1.3 (623),ASM) \ \ Usage: 7z <command> [<switches>...] <archive_name> [<file_names>...] \ [<@listfiles...>] \ \ <Commands> \ a : Add files to archive \ b : Benchmark \ d : Delete files from archive \ e : Extract files from archive (without using directory name
15:26:39 <wib_jonas> unzip is the most important, but this can help
15:26:56 <wib_jonas> ``` 7z l asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz
15:26:57 <HackEso> ​ \ 7-Zip [64] 16.02 : Copyright (c) 1999-2016 Igor Pavlov : 2016-05-21 \ p7zip Version 16.02 (locale=C,Utf16=off,HugeFiles=on,64 bits,1 CPU QEMU Virtual CPU version 2.1.3 (623),ASM) \ \ Scanning the drive for archives: \ 1 file, 41301 bytes (41 KiB) \ \ Listing archive: asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ \ -- \ Path = asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ Type = gzip \ Headers Size = 10 \ \ Date Time Attr Size Compressed Name \ -----------------
15:27:11 <wib_jonas> ``` 7z l asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz | paste
15:27:12 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.4903
15:27:34 <wib_jonas> ``` rm -v /hackenv/tmp/paste/paste.4903
15:27:35 <HackEso> removed '/hackenv/tmp/paste/paste.4903'
15:27:54 <fizzie> As for interps, it's kind of related to the whole `! / ibin thing, though of course in the end it's just a directory like any other. The short version of that story is, /hackenv/bin/! runs commands from /hackenv/ibin/*, which typically (but not always) use binaries stored in directories under /hackenv/interps/*.
15:28:16 <wib_jonas> `? !
15:28:18 <HackEso> ​! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
15:28:20 <wib_jonas> `? `!
15:28:21 <HackEso> ​`! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
15:28:46 <fizzie> Not sure how expected it would be for new language interpreters to integrate with `!.
15:29:21 <fizzie> `` ls ../ibin
15:29:22 <HackEso> 1l \ 2l \ 7 \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ brachylog \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
15:29:49 <fizzie> Chances are not all of those even work.
15:29:51 <wib_jonas> fizzie: after I suggested that to kspalaiologos, someone explained that it wouldn't be appropriate because bfasm isn't an interpreter, it compiles a language to brainfuck and gives brainfuck source code as output
15:30:14 <wib_jonas> so only that wrapper that executes the resulting bf code should be integrated there
15:30:40 <kspalaiologos> yes.
15:30:43 <kspalaiologos> that's right.
15:30:55 <kspalaiologos> but one could wire them up so assembly code is directly ran
15:31:16 <kspalaiologos> gimme a moment
15:31:19 <fizzie> Well, that wrapper would be in ibin, but all the underlying machinery can well be under interps. If you wanted to integrate with `!, anyway. Whether that makes sense is subjective.
15:31:39 <kspalaiologos> I don't seem to get what you're sying
15:31:42 <kspalaiologos> what's `!?
15:31:53 <kspalaiologos> `! bfi
15:31:54 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/bfi: No such file or directory
15:31:59 <kspalaiologos> ok I know
15:32:59 <wib_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso#Interpreters explains it... nope, it doesn't
15:33:08 <kspalaiologos> ``` cat <<<"asmbf && bfi /hackenv/tmp/output.b && rm -f /hackenv/tmp/output.b" > /hackenv/ibin/asmbf
15:33:10 <HackEso> No output.
15:33:21 <kspalaiologos> `! asmbf out .0
15:33:22 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/asmbf: Permission denied \ /hackenv/bin/!: line 4: exec: /hackenv/ibin/asmbf: cannot execute: Permission denied
15:33:27 <kspalaiologos> bruh
15:33:38 <kspalaiologos> ``` chmod +x /hackenv/ibin/asmbf
15:33:41 <HackEso> No output.
15:33:42 <kspalaiologos> `! asmbf out .0
15:33:44 <HackEso> Usage: bfi src.b
15:33:49 <kspalaiologos> doesn
15:33:51 <kspalaiologos> 't seem to work
15:34:03 <wib_jonas> it's all ancient history, `! started as emulating EgoBot's interpreters when HackEgo was introduced, but all that was before I came here
15:36:53 <kspalaiologos> why ain't it working
15:36:55 <kspalaiologos> `ls
15:36:56 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
15:37:01 <kspalaiologos> there clearly is output.b
15:37:04 <kspalaiologos> `cwd
15:37:06 <HackEso> cwd? No such file or directory
15:37:07 <kspalaiologos> `cd
15:37:08 <HackEso> cd? No such file or directory
15:37:21 <kspalaiologos> `pwd
15:37:22 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/tmp
15:37:26 <kspalaiologos> yep
15:37:42 <kspalaiologos> ``` cat <<<"asmbf && bfi output.b && rm -f output.b" > /hackenv/ibin/asmbf
15:37:45 <HackEso> No output.
15:37:48 <kspalaiologos> (ugly shit but should work)
15:37:53 <kspalaiologos> `! asmbf out .0
15:37:55 <HackEso> No output.
15:37:58 <kspalaiologos> ?
15:38:03 <kspalaiologos> ``` ls
15:38:09 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
15:38:19 <kspalaiologos> ``` cat <<<"asmbf && bfi output.b" > /hackenv/ibin/asmbf
15:38:21 <HackEso> No output.
15:38:23 <kspalaiologos> `! asmbf out .0
15:38:24 <HackEso> No output.
15:38:51 <kspalaiologos> `bfi output.b
15:38:52 <HackEso> No output.
15:38:55 <kspalaiologos> now i'm confused
15:38:58 <kspalaiologos> `cat output.b
15:38:59 <HackEso> ​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
15:39:05 <kspalaiologos> whoa, what
15:39:21 <kspalaiologos> `! asmbf "out .0"
15:39:22 <HackEso> No output.
15:39:30 <kspalaiologos> how do you use this `!?
15:39:32 <kspalaiologos> `?!
15:39:33 <HackEso> ​?!? No such file or directory
15:39:35 <kspalaiologos> `? !
15:39:36 <HackEso> ​! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
15:40:08 <fizzie> `! befunge 0"siht ekil">:#,_@
15:40:14 <HackEso> like this
15:41:39 <fizzie> I mean, `! itself literally just runs a binary from ibin. But mostly the assumption is for that to interpret the contents of its argument in some language or another.
15:41:54 <kspalaiologos> I
15:41:56 <kspalaiologos> don't get it
15:41:56 <fizzie> You don't *need* to integrate with `!, as the help text mentions, it's kind of stale now.
15:42:12 <kspalaiologos> why doesnt it work though
15:42:13 <kspalaiologos> look
15:42:21 <fizzie> What you put in ibin/asmbf should work as far as the wrapper goes.
15:42:21 <kspalaiologos> ``` asmbf out .0
15:42:23 <HackEso> No output.
15:42:26 <kspalaiologos> ``` bfi output.b
15:42:27 <HackEso> 0
15:42:29 <kspalaiologos> it should work
15:42:30 <kspalaiologos> but it doesnt
15:43:40 <fizzie> `` asmbf 'out .0'; cat output.b
15:43:42 <HackEso> ​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>>[-]>++++++[<++++++++>-]<.[-]<<<<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
15:43:45 <fizzie> `` \! 'asmbf out .0'; cat output.b
15:43:47 <HackEso> ​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
15:43:53 <wib_jonas> `? `!
15:43:54 <fizzie> Hm, well, that's kind of odd.
15:43:55 <HackEso> ​`! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
15:44:08 <fizzie> Oh, your wrapper just executes "asmbf" with no arguments.
15:44:17 <fizzie> That's why it doesn't work.
15:44:32 <fizzie> There's nothing in ibin/asmbf to use its command line for anything.
15:44:52 <fizzie> `sled /hackenv/ibin/asmbf//s|asmbf|asmbf "$@"|
15:44:55 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/ibin/asmbf//asmbf "$@" && bfi output.b
15:45:01 <fizzie> `` \! 'asmbf out .0'; cat output.b
15:45:04 <HackEso> 0+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>>[-]>++++++[<++++++++>-]<.[-]<<<<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
15:45:11 <fizzie> `! asmbf out .0
15:45:12 <HackEso> 0
15:45:15 <fizzie> There you go.
15:46:12 <kspalaiologos> ah
15:46:15 <kspalaiologos> so it takes input from args
15:46:19 <kspalaiologos> not stdin as I expected
15:46:19 <kspalaiologos> fine
15:47:05 <wib_jonas> there's some sort of wrapper invoked by many of the interpreters in ibin that bridge that
15:47:13 <wib_jonas> it's a set of arcane shell scripts
15:47:35 <kspalaiologos> which one
15:47:43 <fizzie> Yes, there's a canonical set of helper shell functions in /hackenv/lib/interp that many ibin/* interpreters use to turn the arguments into either stdin or a file.
15:47:46 <kspalaiologos> I want to see the arcane
15:47:51 <fizzie> Depending on what the underlying interpreter wants.
15:48:01 <kspalaiologos> ``` ls /hackenv/lib/interp
15:48:04 <fizzie> But of course in your case bin/asmbf wants command-line arguments too, so those aren't useful.
15:48:08 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/lib/interp
15:48:14 <kspalaiologos> helpful as heck
15:48:16 <fizzie> It's just one file they all source, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/lib/interp
15:48:20 <kspalaiologos> hackeso pls
15:48:32 <wib_jonas> ``` /bin/ls -abF /hackenv/ibin
15:48:33 <HackEso> ​./ \ ../ \ 1l* \ 2l* \ 7* \ adjust* \ asm* \ asmbf* \ axo* \ bch* \ befunge* \ befunge98* \ bf* \ bf16@ \ bf32@ \ bf8@ \ bf_txtgen* \ boolfuck* \ brachylog* \ c* \ cintercal* \ clcintercal* \ cxx* \ dimensifuck* \ forth* \ glass* \ glypho* \ haskell* \ help* \ java* \ k* \ kipple* \ lambda* \ lazyk* \ linguine* \ lua* \ malbolge* \ pbrain* \ perl* \ qbf* \ rail* \ rhotor* \ sadol* \ sceql* \ sh* \ slashes* \ trigger* \ udage01* \ underload*
15:48:40 <wib_jonas> choose one of those
15:48:50 <kspalaiologos> ah!
15:48:54 <kspalaiologos> hm so maybe malbolge
15:49:07 <kspalaiologos> ``` at /hackenv/ibin/malbolge
15:49:07 <wib_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/ibin/malbolge
15:49:08 <HackEso> bash: at: command not found
15:49:08 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ . ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/interp \ interp_file ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/interps/malbolge/malbolge.bin
15:49:16 <kspalaiologos> .bin?
15:49:25 <kspalaiologos> who would give an elf binary this extension
15:49:38 <kspalaiologos> but it's interesting nonetheless
15:49:39 <fizzie> Why not? It's a binary.
15:49:51 <kspalaiologos> .bin or .hex is usually a flat binary
15:50:05 <kspalaiologos> while elf isn't quite a flat executable
15:50:14 <fizzie> It's all a matter of convention.
15:50:19 <kspalaiologos> possibly
15:50:30 <fizzie> `` ls /hackenv/interps/befunge # as well
15:50:31 <HackEso> bef.bin \ bef.c \ USED_VERSION
15:50:47 <wib_jonas> no, a flat binary uses the extension .com
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15:51:38 <kspalaiologos> I would disagree
15:51:46 <kspalaiologos> not only the .com extension
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17:47:23 <kspalaiologos> can we change the featured language?
17:47:37 <kspalaiologos> maybe pick another one randomly from given pool
17:47:44 <kspalaiologos> of submissions/candidates
17:47:45 <esowiki> [[Animosian]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68621 * Star651 * (+4182) Created page with "<pre> Animosian is a scripting language invented by [[User:Star651]] on January 2, 2020, after receiving a high-tech vision in a dream in 2004 or 2005, realizing that such a l..."
17:48:14 <esowiki> [[Animosian]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68622&oldid=68621 * Star651 * (+41)
17:49:29 <fizzie> That's already how it works. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates documents the process.
17:50:12 <fizzie> (The "Every so often" is measured in years, though.)
17:50:24 <kspalaiologos> https://esolangs.org/wiki/GolfSpace
17:50:29 <kspalaiologos> A leftover?
17:55:27 <fizzie> I only cleaned up the recently created ones, that didn't even attempt to make a joke. There's a lot of A contributions left.
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17:59:12 <kspalaiologos> can we end the regin of Thue?
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18:00:30 <fizzie> I don't know, it's been featured for such a short time so far.
18:01:15 <fizzie> We featured brainfuck from 2013 to 2019.
18:04:20 <fizzie> My personal preference is still to go through the Befunge article with a fine-toothed comb and then feature that, but I never seem to get around to it. (Though the article wasn't as unpolished as I remembered it being, last I checked.)
18:08:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68623&oldid=66676 * B jonas * (+61) /* List of candidates */ unpropose Befunge, propose Nopfunge
18:08:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: ah yes, good thing you mention it
18:09:17 <b_jonas> there
18:09:42 <b_jonas> the Underload article is in a good state, so that might be the most solid candidate
18:11:32 <fizzie> Huh, I thought we had already featured Underload, but apparently not.
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18:15:30 <fizzie> It's a solid choice, and maybe a new decade is a good excuse for a new featured language.
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18:17:30 <b_jonas> nah, we should probably wait until Thue has been featured for a year
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18:25:21 <b_jonas> I wonder if I should leave Befunge on the candidates page, but without my endorsement, just for the feature paragraph
18:27:45 <b_jonas> I think I will, and if you don't like it, you can just revert the page
18:27:54 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68624&oldid=68491 * BN * (+40)
18:28:30 <kspalaiologos> nopfunge is interesting
18:29:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68625&oldid=68623 * B jonas * (+823)
18:29:35 <b_jonas> yeah
18:29:59 <b_jonas> there are also some interesting ais523 languages that I can propose next, but there's a limit of one proposal per person
18:30:26 <kspalaiologos> so if it's turing complete
18:30:29 <kspalaiologos> can one translate brainfuck to it?
18:30:37 <kspalaiologos> doesn't seem doable though
18:30:50 <b_jonas> technically you can, except for the IO
18:31:05 <kspalaiologos> what about the "infinite" memory
18:31:08 <kspalaiologos> and branching
18:31:15 <kspalaiologos> especially conditional one
18:31:31 <kspalaiologos> maybe my mind is constr
18:31:33 <kspalaiologos> ained
18:31:35 <LKoen> "unconditional branching" sounds like an alien concept
18:31:49 <kspalaiologos> ^ jmp %somewhere
18:32:08 <kspalaiologos> it's quite simple in nopfunge I believe
18:32:35 <kspalaiologos> also, as the minsky machine has just two registers
18:32:36 <b_jonas> the infinite memory is encoded in the two coordinates of the program counter of Nopfunge. there's a double-exponential blowup, so if you need n bytes of memory in brainfuck, the program counter coordinates will have 2**O(n) bits and will be of size 2**2**O(n)
18:32:48 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68626&oldid=68587 * BN * (+29)
18:32:57 <kspalaiologos> ** is exponentation?
18:32:59 <b_jonas> yes
18:33:17 <b_jonas> brainfuck is deterministic, the decisions corresponding to these deterministic branches will happen in the translated program
18:33:17 <kspalaiologos> it's interesting though
18:33:20 <b_jonas> again, no IO
18:33:27 <b_jonas> so it's brainfuck without the . or , statements
18:33:35 <kspalaiologos> 20 brainfuck cells, the minimum to run asm2bf
18:33:42 <kspalaiologos> will result in 2**2**20 bytes required
18:33:54 <b_jonas> no
18:33:58 <b_jonas> there's a big O in it
18:34:07 <b_jonas> and it's not 2**2**20 bytes
18:34:12 <kspalaiologos> how much is it?
18:34:20 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68627&oldid=68626 * BN * (+7) /* Tier */
18:34:25 <b_jonas> you never explicitly store the periodic code space, because it's periodic
18:34:34 <b_jonas> 2**2**O(n) is how large the program counter will grow
18:34:40 <b_jonas> that's not how large the source code is
18:34:48 <kspalaiologos> grow or reach?
18:34:58 <b_jonas> what's the difference?
18:35:17 <kspalaiologos> if the pointer will reach at most 2**2**O(n) the size is equal to square of it obviously
18:35:27 <kspalaiologos> (implying that it'll be a square)
18:35:29 <b_jonas> and of course you can set n to 20 only if it's fixed size brainfuck cells
18:35:41 <LKoen> oh my god
18:35:47 <b_jonas> the size of the imaginary playfield, yes, but you don't have to store that anywhere
18:35:48 <LKoen> "2**2**O(n)" o___O
18:35:51 <b_jonas> because it's a periodic playfield
18:35:58 <kspalaiologos> fine
18:36:02 <b_jonas> you only store one period, or two if you wish
18:36:15 <b_jonas> and the two coordniates of the program counter, which each have 2**O(n) bits
18:36:28 <kspalaiologos> ah ok
18:36:34 <kspalaiologos> I understand (a bit) now
18:36:40 <b_jonas> of course if your brainfuck program is one that runs forever and requires unbounded memory, then the translation will require unbounded memory too
18:37:34 <kspalaiologos> it's way more than 64 bits can hold
18:37:36 <kspalaiologos> not even trhing
18:37:43 <kspalaiologos> but a very nice concept isn't it
18:38:31 <kspalaiologos> maybe we should improve the minsky machine article
18:38:34 <kspalaiologos> because it's not helpful at all
18:38:41 <kspalaiologos> I seem to understand the topic so I may take on it later
18:39:12 <b_jonas> hmm yes, that's a good point
18:39:24 <kspalaiologos> because in practice it serves no information
18:39:54 <b_jonas> neither it nor the Fractran article gives a proof of Turing-completeness
18:39:58 <b_jonas> not even for many counters
18:40:07 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: it does give some information. it links to useful books.
18:40:28 <b_jonas> I put one of those books there, one where I read that proof
18:41:21 <kspalaiologos> wait
18:41:25 <kspalaiologos> actually minsky machine is really interesting
18:41:48 <kspalaiologos> and does it mean that two celled brainfuck is also turing complete?
18:42:04 <kspalaiologos> it's mindblowing
18:42:29 <kspalaiologos> how for example do you calculate modulus of a number on this two register machine or two cells brainfuck
18:43:01 <b_jonas> no, I don't think so
18:43:34 <b_jonas> but brainfuck with a fixed constant number of bigint cells is Turing-complete
18:43:58 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class says that 3 cells are enough
18:43:59 <kspalaiologos> two bigint cells
18:44:05 <kspalaiologos> duh!
18:44:06 <kspalaiologos> three
18:44:08 <kspalaiologos> not two
18:44:23 <b_jonas> three for Brainfuck
18:44:51 <kspalaiologos> but
18:44:52 <int-e> you need one extra for conditionals
18:45:03 <b_jonas> two integers is enough for Turing-completeness for a Minsky machine, but requires double-exponential slowdown; three counters or more for a Minsky machine requires only an exponential slowdown
18:45:05 <kspalaiologos> if brainfuck had a digit near instruction
18:45:07 <kspalaiologos> a fixed digit
18:45:11 <kspalaiologos> and no pointer movement'
18:45:16 <kspalaiologos> (it seems like more constraining)
18:45:25 <kspalaiologos> it would be turing complete aswell with two cells
18:45:38 <b_jonas> what is a "digit near instruction"?
18:46:02 <kspalaiologos> 3+4- => will increment cell 3 and decrement cell 4
18:47:05 <b_jonas> but what control flow do you have? the control flow instructions are the real difference. you can just use < and > to choose cells
18:47:16 <int-e> Hmm? Why can't you translate that to >>>+>-<<<<?
18:47:48 <int-e> The problem isn't the arithmetic, it is testing a register for 0 and taking different paths in the program based on that
18:48:45 <int-e> ("register" being one of the simulated Minsky machine counters.)
18:49:06 <kspalaiologos> alright
18:49:17 <kspalaiologos> so how can you implement modulus on a three register brainfuck machine with bigint cells
18:49:24 <kspalaiologos> I'm intrested like never before
18:49:36 <kspalaiologos> *three cell brainfuck, sorry
18:49:41 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I don't know, look at that article I linked, maybe it gives a link
18:49:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68628&oldid=68616 * Star651 * (+16) /* A */
18:50:13 <kspalaiologos> what I'm thinking about
18:50:17 <kspalaiologos> we could use these as stacks
18:50:44 <kspalaiologos> >> and << are implementable just using */ so it may be possible to have two "stacks" on this brainfuck variant
18:51:49 <kspalaiologos> so it's actually a PDA
18:51:51 <kspalaiologos> but it has two stacks
18:51:54 <kspalaiologos> so it's a turing machine
18:51:56 <kspalaiologos> but it makes no sense
18:52:03 <kspalaiologos> to extract a value off the stack one needs modulus
18:52:17 <kspalaiologos> and it's impossible to extract it using just three cells
18:54:00 <kspalaiologos> the proof has been made using collatz function
18:54:04 <kspalaiologos> interesting
18:56:21 <arseniiv> (unrelated) how do you represent cell complexes of arbitrary dimension? I’d use a dictionary from cells to their default orientations (in terms of default orientations of their boundary cells, downto points which are oriented unconditionally as e. g. positive) and then some dictionaries to represent the incidence, like boundaries and coboundaries, or just a plain dump of all incident cells for each of them, but which of these choices h
18:56:21 <arseniiv> ave a chance to be the most practical?..
18:56:58 <arseniiv> default orientations would be useful to supplement the incidence info
18:57:15 <arseniiv> then one would be able to represent oriented paths etc.
18:59:06 <arseniiv> also there should be a quirk distinguishing internal orientations (the usual ones) and external ones (like in pseudovectors vs. vectors), as one can’t orient the Moebius strip complex in the internal way but can in external one
18:59:42 <arseniiv> I don’t see where the changes would be in the representation description above
19:00:56 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: anyway, you're right, we should probably add a proof to the Minsky machine article about how they're turing-complete by simulating a multi-stack machine
19:01:05 <b_jonas> and ideally also the crazy proof for the two-counter machine
19:01:22 <b_jonas> because Nopfunge can only directly simulate the two-counter machine
19:02:00 <kspalaiologos> "crazy proof for the two-counter machine"
19:02:05 <kspalaiologos> that's what I'll spend my time on
19:02:07 <kspalaiologos> perfect
19:02:20 <kspalaiologos> at least I'll learn some about CS
19:04:10 <b_jonas> though I'll have to check the pages for ais's languages, one of them might already have a proof, since many of them are Minsky-based
19:04:16 <b_jonas> including The Waterfall Model
19:05:41 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: "crazy" is only my opinion, I think ais or oerjan don't find it crazy
19:06:02 <b_jonas> but it's crazy in essentials, that is, the simulation must be crazy in that it needs the double-exponential slowdown as far as I understand
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19:15:22 <kspalaiologos> I have to think for a while about it
19:15:26 <kspalaiologos> and top it off with asm2bf backend
19:15:33 <kspalaiologos> if my lifespan is long enough
19:15:48 <kspalaiologos> it's essentially subleq
19:15:54 <kspalaiologos> but better and worse in a couple of cases
19:16:12 <kspalaiologos> incdecne seems like a good name
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19:25:30 <int-e> That collatz construction is pretty tricky.
19:26:57 <int-e> (I was around when oerjan came up with that one, but I don't recall looking at it in detail before just now.)
19:38:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Amitbashan * New user account
19:44:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68629&oldid=68602 * Amitbashan * (+281) /* Introductions */
19:46:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68630&oldid=68629 * Amitbashan * (+20) /* Introductions */
19:47:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68631&oldid=68630 * Amitbashan * (+11) /* Introductions */
19:47:28 <esowiki> [[User:Amitbashan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68632 * Amitbashan * (+12) Created page with "Hello there."
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19:57:51 <b_jonas> there's an easy construction though, to translate a Minsky machine to brainfuck with bigint cells, where you assign a cell for each state of the Minsky, you set it to 1 if that's the current state and 0 otherwise, and the brainfuck program tests each of those state cells and performs its actions if it's set. this leads to a brainfuck program that uses bounded size tape, but the tape size depends on the
19:57:57 <b_jonas> size of the Minsky program.
20:33:36 <int-e> Oh sure, it all gets pretty simple if you add more cells.
20:49:44 <esowiki> [[User:Amitbashan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68633&oldid=68632 * Hex96 * (+32)
20:52:29 <esowiki> [[Category:Joke, kinda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68634 * Hex96 * (+47) Created page with "The Joke, kinda category contains jokes, kinda."
20:53:24 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68635&oldid=68615 * Hex96 * (+44) /* List of esolangs */
20:54:12 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68636&oldid=68635 * Hex96 * (-5) /* List of esolangs */
20:55:20 <esowiki> [[Category:Joke, kinda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68637&oldid=68634 * Hex96 * (+32)
20:59:41 <esowiki> [[WCDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68638&oldid=65723 * Hex96 * (+92)
21:00:21 <esowiki> [[WCDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68639&oldid=68638 * Hex96 * (+13) /* Hello, World! (21 bytes) */
21:00:39 <esowiki> [[WCDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68640&oldid=68639 * Hex96 * (-10) /* Hello, World! (21 bytes) */
21:00:48 <esowiki> [[WCDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68641&oldid=68640 * Hex96 * (-1) /* Hello, World! (21 bytes) */
21:01:45 <esowiki> [[WCDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68642&oldid=68641 * Hex96 * (-13) /* Hello, World! (21 bytes) */
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21:42:05 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68643&oldid=68624 * Lebster * (+193) added SSL
22:12:32 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, I have to do this
22:12:37 <b_jonas> ``` date +%Y
22:12:38 <HackEso> 2020
22:12:42 <b_jonas> ^ looks wrong
22:12:50 <b_jonas> we're in the future
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22:23:12 <LBPHacker> ``` date +%G
22:23:13 <HackEso> 2020
22:25:41 <b_jonas> ``` date +%C%C
22:25:42 <HackEso> 2020
22:26:42 <zzo38> I added some more tropes for the story of GURPS game I play. But see if you agree/disagree
22:27:20 <b_jonas> ``` date +%S%S
22:27:21 <HackEso> 2121
22:27:23 <fizzie> `` date +%d%d | tac # if we're being silly
22:27:24 <HackEso> 0202
22:27:38 <fizzie> Whoops, I forgot what tac actually does.
22:27:43 <b_jonas> rev
22:27:52 <fizzie> `` date +%d%d | rev # then
22:27:53 <HackEso> 2020
22:28:12 <zzo38> Yes, now you are silly, I suppose, and at this time, it works.
22:28:52 <b_jonas> `datei
22:28:52 <HackEso> 2020-01-02 22:28:52.455 +0000 UTC January 2 Thursday 2020-W01-4
22:29:07 <b_jonas> ``` date 2019
22:29:08 <HackEso> date: invalid date '2019'
22:29:10 <b_jonas> ``` date +2019
22:29:11 <HackEso> 2019
22:29:13 <b_jonas> much better
22:39:40 <esowiki> [[User:Amitbashan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68644&oldid=68633 * JonoCode9374 * (+134)
22:44:27 <esowiki> [[Comp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68645&oldid=68620 * JonoCode9374 * (+4) /* Calculator */
22:54:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Comp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68646 * JonoCode9374 * (+323) /* The Ampersand */ new section
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22:59:15 <esowiki> [[Comp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68647&oldid=68645 * JonoCode9374 * (+323)
23:00:18 <esowiki> [[Comp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68648&oldid=68647 * JonoCode9374 * (-2)
23:06:33 <esowiki> [[Comp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68649&oldid=68648 * JonoCode9374 * (+683)
23:15:43 <esowiki> [[Ekg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68650&oldid=68514 * JonoCode9374 * (+193) Uncat the page. \_( )_/
23:17:48 <esowiki> [[Ekg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68651&oldid=68650 * JonoCode9374 * (+316) \_( )_/
00:03:01 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68652&oldid=68601 * Lebster * (-79) Updated factorial program to more efficient variant (-9 characters)
00:03:12 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68653&oldid=68652 * Lebster * (-1) /* Find the Factorial of a Number */
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01:30:21 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage:Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68654 * Lebster * (+1146) Created page with "===[[Hello World]]=== aviiiaiglbmfavdaiiiglbmlblbgifviiffiiifavdaviiimfaiiimwwifbbbbbfiiifwdfwdddfbvfbb ===[[Cat]]=== aitjfu ===[[Truth-machine]]=== htxux === Factoria..."
01:30:27 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68655&oldid=68653 * Lebster * (-1117) /* Examples */
01:30:44 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68656&oldid=68655 * Lebster * (+37) /* Examples */
02:12:48 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68657&oldid=68656 * Lebster * (-12)
02:13:29 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68658&oldid=68657 * Lebster * (+0) Categories
02:16:58 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68659&oldid=68658 * Lebster * (+0)
02:17:59 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68660&oldid=68561 * Lebster * (+13) /* Languages I like */
02:28:45 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68661&oldid=68659 * Lebster * (+590) added computational class (thx Comp)
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03:23:10 <moony> hm
03:23:19 <moony> i wonder just how many of the esolangs users are young programmers
03:23:22 <moony> probably most of them
03:23:27 <moony> (I know I am :P)
03:23:51 <fizzie> What's the technical definition of "young programmer"?
03:23:57 <moony> under 18
03:24:00 <moony> :P
03:28:10 <fizzie> I guess we'd need Google Analytics or some other such thing to answer that.
03:29:15 <fizzie> Except I think it only reports age demographics from 18 upwards.
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04:42:54 <kingoffrance> pshaw users what about devs
04:42:57 <kingoffrance> pshaw
04:43:04 <kingoffrance> "users" :/
05:15:46 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68662&oldid=66150 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1) article
06:13:59 <zzo38> I don't like the "Flow" system for talk pages on some MediaWiki based wikis, but some wikis use it, so I have written some JavaScript and CSS codes to improve it.
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06:28:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:2/9 of an esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68663 * YamTokTpaFa * (+334) Created page with "== What should the interpreter/compiler do with non-command characters? == I finally get it that Hello, world! program begins with non-printable character, but what does it do..."
06:37:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68664&oldid=68663 * YamTokTpaFa * (+141) /* What should the interpreter/compiler do with non-command characters? */
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06:51:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Mornington Crescent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68665 * JonoCode9374 * (+308) /* Add Dollis Hill as a Command */ new section
06:53:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Mornington Crescent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68666&oldid=68665 * JonoCode9374 * (+332) /* A Game of Mornington Crescent */ new section
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10:22:39 <mroman> !blsq "MP"?x
10:22:39 <blsqbot> | "MapPush"
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10:50:42 <wib_jonas> I wonder if there's a fan-made Pokemon game that is entirely text-based so you can play it on IRC for example.
10:53:34 <myname> huh
10:54:05 <myname> if i'd make a text-based pokemon game, i'd probably use ncurses or something similar
10:54:09 <myname> so still no irc
10:54:36 <myname> i don't see irc as a good target for games. i made some for telegram and even that is pretty limited
10:54:50 <wib_jonas> well, you could have multiple interfaces for essentially the same game
10:56:01 <wib_jonas> as for IRC and games, I think the Niagara board game could be played through IRC.
10:56:26 <wib_jonas> if someone wrote a bot that implements it that is
10:58:14 <myname> well, of course you could, but i cannot imagine it being fun to write stuff like "go 5 steps north, go 3 steps left, go 5 step north, list attacks, attack with tackle, attack with tackle, attack with tackle"
10:58:46 <wib_jonas> no, I don't think you'd have a grid-based map in such a game
10:59:15 <wib_jonas> and you'd just write some shorter commands instead of "attack with tackle", which is feasable because your pokemon has at most four moves
11:00:25 <myname> but exploration is a key component in these games
11:01:52 <wib_jonas> sure, so you'd have a graph-based map. the game lists the four houses in the town and tells that you can also enter the forest or the mountains, and if you choose the forest, you'll probably get random encounters, and in the forest, you can go on or turn back, but you don't micromanage the steps
11:02:17 <wib_jonas> of course then you might not be able to use the strats where you sneak past a trainer when they're looking at the opposite direction
11:03:58 <wib_jonas> and I guess you'd lose more inside buildings that have items hidden in sneaky places
11:04:16 <wib_jonas> so yes, it would lose some of the nice parts of a typical pokemon game
11:04:25 <wib_jonas> but I think it might still be worth, there's enough left for a good game,
11:04:53 <wib_jonas> and the game could balance that out with new mechanics specifically helping what it lacks from the medium
11:05:37 <myname> i am interested in a pokemon programming game
11:06:20 <wib_jonas> what would that be like?
11:09:07 <myname> your game wish except with an api that you can call automatically and after the elite 4 matching with another programs result
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12:54:53 <wib_jonas> fungot, when is AGDQ?
12:54:53 <fungot> wib_jonas: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
12:55:12 <wib_jonas> not betraying your friends? ok
13:07:51 <fizzie> fungot: Are you running something this year?
13:07:52 <fungot> fizzie: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
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13:29:09 <esowiki> [[DubDubMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68667&oldid=63852 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+0) changed userName
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14:26:34 <arseniiv> fungot: how do you find your new state of mind?
14:26:34 <fungot> arseniiv: but cyrus! are you leaving!
14:27:08 <arseniiv> fungot: don’t worry, I’m here to stay for a while
14:27:09 <fungot> arseniiv: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
14:27:21 <kspalaiologos> ^mode
14:27:28 <kspalaiologos> ^mode youtubecomments
14:27:36 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: ^style
14:27:38 <arseniiv> no no no no no
14:27:38 <kspalaiologos> c'mon fungot
14:27:38 <fungot> kspalaiologos: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now... you've changed! marle looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
14:27:39 <kspalaiologos> yeah
14:27:41 <kspalaiologos> alright
14:27:45 <kspalaiologos> ^style
14:27:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
14:27:53 <kspalaiologos> ^style youtube
14:27:53 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
14:27:55 <kspalaiologos> gotta try them all
14:27:59 <kspalaiologos> fungot, tell me something
14:27:59 <fungot> kspalaiologos: if you are the waste of space and i kept checking for updates weekly but always seeing the " when bruce willis play him...
14:28:09 <kspalaiologos> very nice
14:28:26 <kspalaiologos> ^style irc
14:28:26 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
14:28:30 <kspalaiologos> this one's gonna be interesting
14:28:44 <kspalaiologos> fungot, what do you think about reducing 3-cell brainfuck to 2-counter minsky machine?
14:28:44 <fungot> kspalaiologos: how do you plan to sink a bit more careful about punctuation, capitalization, spelling and grammar gives you more credibility in written communications.)
14:28:58 <arseniiv> isn’t that one what was selected upto a day or so prior?
14:29:12 <arseniiv> fungot: how eso is a Minsky machine?
14:29:12 <fungot> arseniiv: cool. i know it
14:29:13 <kspalaiologos> fungot, tell me a joke
14:29:13 <fungot> kspalaiologos: sarahbot how old is your mom., so they expect the school has horrible atmosphere and that guy is a nice shorthand for constructing sexps with some variable parts
14:29:30 <arseniiv> fungot: and how eso is a generalized Minsky machine?
14:29:30 <fungot> arseniiv: got it. thanks for the code
14:29:35 <arseniiv> hm
14:29:36 <fizzie> It defaults to the 'irc' style, yes.
14:29:45 <kspalaiologos> ah
14:29:48 <kspalaiologos> ^style
14:29:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
14:29:54 <kspalaiologos> can you make another styles?
14:30:02 <kspalaiologos> ^style alice
14:30:02 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
14:30:11 <kspalaiologos> fungot, tell me a joke
14:30:11 <fungot> kspalaiologos: " serpent!" cried alice, dropping the ball of worsted alice had been trying to wind up the rabbit!"
14:30:36 <kspalaiologos> ^style sms
14:30:36 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
14:30:40 <fizzie> Yes, though for whatever reason most of the things I've tried haven't been as successful as the early ones.
14:30:56 <arseniiv> fungot: r u ok
14:30:57 <fungot> arseniiv: ya i also i since 1pm lo even worse. he's not around or just still asleep. i thought my dad wouldwake me up up high upon me? but that one shorter. th tuesday is difficultfor us. would watch it tonight bah
14:31:08 <fizzie> 'europarl' is pretty good at being a politician.
14:31:08 <kspalaiologos> fungot, lmao
14:31:08 <fungot> kspalaiologos: later i finish my psychology lol. i was asking wats up.? wat was ur grade u got for 1 moviebefore april. cant wait to eat xlb first arbo y ask u ma!i always anythin one.if u dun want can cancel it for umah
14:31:15 <kspalaiologos> let's try ot
14:31:20 <kspalaiologos> ^style europarl
14:31:20 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
14:31:48 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of the whole Brexit mess?
14:31:49 <fungot> fizzie: the aim of guaranteeing and seeking a higher standard of living, the deteriorating state of the stocks would still not have been possible if there are spaces in the press, there may have been deluding ourselves in thinking we were stupid. and they secure this by paying commissions to doctors to refer patients to them for having presented and prepared these reports within such a very short period during which it can give
14:32:01 <kspalaiologos> lmao
14:32:06 <fizzie> Well, not a great example this time.
14:32:24 <fizzie> `quote end to all
14:32:25 <HackEso> 429) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
14:32:33 <kspalaiologos> fungot, what do you think about judiciary in Poland?
14:32:33 <fungot> kspalaiologos: mrs fraga, i do not support. i am thinking above all of the cost of the committee on constitutional affairs itself will carefully reconsider this suggestion, which opens up an appalling prospect, not least on article 23, the so-called d'amato legislation. that will be happening. the existing guidelines on the highly important cooperation with ngos in former communist countries, such as fnord, chewing gum and ice
14:32:48 <kspalaiologos> lol
14:32:58 <fizzie> NGOs such as fnord.
14:33:49 <kspalaiologos> he seems more logical than the EU parlament itself
14:34:58 <fizzie> `quote human rights
14:34:59 <HackEso> 499) <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want.
14:35:57 <myname> sounds like loriot's "bundestagsrede"
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14:40:51 <fizzie> ^style nethack
14:40:52 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
14:40:53 <fizzie> fungot: Don't let the grid bugs bite.
14:40:53 <fungot> fizzie: touch*stone: " mirror, here i stand. who are you kay's brother. immediately after your birth, merlin the wise brought you to the incautious adventurer who can cause the traveller to feel the runes on a map next time you're not going to win at nethack.
14:41:31 <fizzie> fungot: You can ascend, but do you really ever "win at nethack"?
14:41:31 <fungot> fizzie: they say that a gypsy could tell your fortune for a heavy man, but guided by her image reflected in the dungeon breaking a mirror.
14:42:00 <fizzie> Deep.
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15:45:30 <esowiki> [[Comp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68668&oldid=68649 * Hex96 * (+33)
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17:37:51 <imode> wonder if there's any way to parallelize string search/replacement.
17:38:06 <imode> search, probably. replacement, probably not..?
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17:52:11 <zzo38> I also thought that a text-based Pokemon game should be made up; the players could telnet to the server and enter the commands there, which would be shorten such as one character to indicate the attack, or indicating what other command you want such as to shift to another pokemon
17:54:02 <imode> zzo38: but then you miss all the fun of having unique pokemon graphics. :P
17:55:17 <zzo38> Yes, although I have thought of that too actually; some signal could indicate that you want to use JSON communication instead, so in that way, specialized clients would also be possible.
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18:04:02 <zzo38> Someone else also mentioned Spinda. I thought, in the text-based game if your pokemon is Spinda then your opponent can see the personality value (although I am not sure how useful this is).
18:05:54 <zzo38> I suppose gender, ability, and nature might be applicable
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18:36:57 <myname> imode: replacement should be fine in a roe, it may lead to non-deterministic results on overlapping search or search-replace patterns, though
18:37:05 <myname> *rope
18:42:38 <imode> nondeterministic is fine.
18:47:23 <myname> go for a rope
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19:16:10 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68669&oldid=67944 * CarlosLuna * (+1243) Addind UnaryToDecimal, RomanToUnary and UnaryToRoman examples. Improving Thue-Morse and Fibonacci Examples
19:38:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Goldos24 * New user account
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19:56:48 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68670&oldid=68669 * CarlosLuna * (+852) Adding a compact interpreter in Python and reorganizing the whole section
20:28:01 <kspalaiologos> I've picked up on a project of writing an url shortener in brainfuck
20:28:13 <kspalaiologos> currently I've done some extending work on the brainfuck interpreter to support basic file I/P
20:28:16 <kspalaiologos> *I/O
20:28:36 <kspalaiologos> and some code to write an entry from key-value dictionary to the database
20:28:47 <kspalaiologos> it's getting ridiculous even before I run it
20:29:38 <kspalaiologos> http://prntscr.com/qj1j9u
20:32:32 <kspalaiologos> I should probably write unit tests for my code
20:32:44 <kspalaiologos> I didn't invent this for asm2bf yet so not today
20:49:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68671&oldid=51098 * CarlosLuna * (+875) Perl implementation simplification proposal
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21:24:39 <zzo38> If you are playing in Constructed mode, then the player would have to define their pokemons ahead of time and then send it. One way to do this would be to create a text file containing what you want, and then to connect and send the file to the server; you will receive a response with any error messages (if any), or else to tell it is OK.
21:24:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68672&oldid=68631 * Goldos24 * (+219) /* Introductions */
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21:38:42 <zzo38> Is there URL shortening service based on compression and not storing the URL in the database?
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21:52:27 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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23:11:52 <zzo38> Are there C programs other than my own that ever do such things as multiplication by '\1\0' or '\0\1'? On which C compilers does this work and which ones it doesn't work?
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01:31:29 <oerjan> https://xkcd.com/2250/ OKAY
01:33:40 <fizzie> Acknowledged.
01:37:02 <ArthurStrong> Hi all.
01:38:44 <oerjan> i find this edit a bit disturbing https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/rev/df528347dad2
01:39:21 <oerjan> `t doag interps/bfi
01:39:24 <HackEso> 12288:2020-01-02 <kspalaiologös> `` cp /hackenv/lib/kps/bfi /hackenv/interps/
01:39:33 <oerjan> oh
01:40:02 <oerjan> wait a minute, did it exist before, or not?
01:40:25 <fizzie> I don't think it did, actually.
01:40:25 <oerjan> apparently not. i guess it's ok then.
01:40:48 <oerjan> the repo browser is misleading
01:41:16 <fizzie> It does kind of break the interps structure a little.
01:41:35 <fizzie> Though it's not the first thing that does.
01:42:45 <fizzie> Arguably the "right" way to integrate with ! would be to put the sources in interps/subdir and, if it needs building, add to interps/Makefile. But nobody cares.
01:44:07 <fizzie> `` ls -l /hackenv/{bin/bfi,interps/bfi,lib/kps/bfi} # I mean, this is a little silly
01:44:12 <HackEso> ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 13424 Nov 15 14:11 /hackenv/bin/bfi \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 19048 Jan 2 15:22 /hackenv/interps/bfi \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 19048 Dec 31 17:47 /hackenv/lib/kps/bfi
01:44:39 <fizzie> The last two are the same, I think the first one might be a much earlier version, and/or a different BF interpreter altogether.
01:45:37 <fizzie> (And then there's interps/egobf/src/egobfiNN, with different genetics.)
01:47:54 <oerjan> `t doat interps
01:47:56 <HackEso> 996:2012-12-09 <Gregör> tar xf egobot.tar.xz \ 1073:2012-12-14 <FireFl̈y> glass \ 4791:2014-09-07 <oerjän> interp glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]} \ 4909:2014-09-29 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/ulimit/#ulimit/\' interps/gcccomp/gcccomp \ 4916:2014-09-29 <oerjän> sed -i \'47iecho "$GCC" -x "$LANG" "$2" $FLAGS -o /tmp/compiled.$$ 2> /dev/null\' interps/gcccomp/gcccomp \ 4917:2014-09-29 <oerjän> revert \ 4918:2014-09-29 <oerjän> sed -i
01:48:24 <oerjan> hm it was fairly early
01:49:44 <oerjan> `dowt zzo38
01:49:46 <HackEso> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
01:51:13 <oerjan> b_jonas: the EgoBot import weren't quite from the start of HackEgo
01:51:18 <oerjan> *+s
01:51:56 <oerjan> (and even the Initial import wasn't quite the start, there was some history squashing at that point.)
01:52:54 <fizzie> My fallible recollection suggests HackEgo and EgoBot coincided for some time, which would mean there wouldn't've been a need for an EgoBot import, because the real thing was around.
01:55:14 <oerjan> yeah
01:55:51 <oerjan> i think EgoBot stayed around somewhat after the import too.
01:56:01 <oerjan> on and off
02:19:32 <zzo38> Is some people on like to make Magic: the Gathering cards or cards for other kind of card game?
02:24:57 <zzo38> I looked now they added a new function flag SQLITE_INNOCUOUS into SQLite, indicating a function with no side effects and few resources and that it is safe for use in a trigger or view.
02:27:38 <kmc> SQLite: the Gathering
02:29:30 <zzo38> My two messages are independent.
02:30:18 <kmc> but what if they weren't?
02:31:11 <zzo38> Maybe you can make up such a thing anyways; I don't know.
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03:00:39 <oerjan> reading the iwc forum is so much faster after the upgrade now that i found the "unread posts" menu
03:00:48 <oerjan> *menu item
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03:01:00 <oerjan> which may or may not have always been there
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03:12:16 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68673&oldid=58153 * Gamer * (+2) /* Control Flow Commands */
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03:30:53 <zzo38> How does the printing work for the printing cards of such card game as Magic: the Gathering and so on?
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04:00:49 <zzo38> I made a list of some of the differences of TeXnicard and MSE: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/wiki?name=Differences+between+TeXnicard+and+MSE
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07:28:25 <zzo38> I saw someone made up this Magic: the Gathering card: {0} Instant ;; Split second I think I had the same idea too. Someone commented "There are many more dignified ways to raise your storm count." but I think storm count is not the point.
07:29:15 <zzo38> There are ways to use split second to your advantage even if the spell has no other effect.
07:31:40 <zzo38> Do you think it is?
08:41:03 <esowiki> [[Ekg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68674&oldid=68651 * JonoCode9374 * (+1580) /* Very WIP Reference List */
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09:35:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * JonoCode9374 * moved [[Ekg]] to [[Keta]]: I decided upon a better name
09:36:33 <esowiki> [[Keta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68677&oldid=68675 * JonoCode9374 * (+3)
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09:49:55 <kspalaiologos> fizzie, the /hackenv/bin interpreter is outdated (v1.1.1 -> v1.2.6)
09:50:05 <kspalaiologos> I should have removed it, but I forgot.
09:50:16 <kspalaiologos> ``` rm -f /hackenv/bin/bfi
09:50:24 <HackEso> No output.
09:50:30 <kspalaiologos> ``` whereis bfi
09:50:31 <HackEso> bfi:
09:50:52 <kspalaiologos> ``` cp /hackenv/lib/kps/bfi /hackenv/bin/
09:50:54 <HackEso> No output.
09:51:00 <kspalaiologos> ``` whereis bfi
09:51:01 <HackEso> bfi: /hackenv/bin/bfi
09:51:28 <kspalaiologos> lag?
09:51:37 <kspalaiologos> hackenv/bin -> this is in the path, so asmbf script can work
09:52:13 <kspalaiologos> hackenv/lib/kps -> there are all the binaries, including bfasm, bfpp, bfmake, ...
09:52:29 <kspalaiologos> hackenv/[...]/interps -> you suggested me to put it here :p
09:53:23 <kspalaiologos> so in the end it has a couple of intergrations
09:53:30 <kspalaiologos> `! asmbf mov r1, .0/out r1
09:53:32 <HackEso> 0
09:53:42 <kspalaiologos> ``` asmbf mov r1, .0/out r1
09:53:43 <HackEso> No output.
09:53:52 <kspalaiologos> ``` asmbf mov r1, .0/out r1 && bfi output.b
09:53:53 <HackEso> 0
09:54:05 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf mov r1, .0/out r1
09:54:11 <HackEso> No output.
09:54:14 <kspalaiologos> ^this should display the code
09:54:16 <kspalaiologos> but it doesn'
09:54:20 <kspalaiologos> t for some reason, but it
09:54:22 <kspalaiologos> 's ok
10:02:43 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage:Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68678&oldid=68654 * Lebster * (-1132) deleted page
10:03:02 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68679&oldid=68661 * Lebster * (+1077) merged seperate page
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10:20:15 <Lykaina> hi
10:23:00 <Lykaina> i play nylea as my commander
10:24:33 <Lykaina> i think this is the wrong chatroom for mtg
10:29:14 <Lykaina> "nylea, god of the hunt", to be specific
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10:51:15 <zoobab> hi
10:51:38 <Lykaina> hi
10:51:45 <zoobab> what is the easiest BF fork to modify, I want to make my own language
10:54:25 <b_jonas> zoobab: if you want to make your own language, do not base it on anything BF-related.
10:55:13 <zoobab> which one do you recommend?
10:55:44 <zoobab> it is more of a joke language
10:56:18 <zoobab> taking the 8 instructions of BF and replacing them with 8 words
10:56:21 <zoobab> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
10:57:22 <zoobab> a bit like Babylang: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Babylang
11:07:11 <myname> zoobab: there should be an entry about "trivial bf replacements" in the wiki
11:07:33 <myname> just do something cooler
11:08:11 <esowiki> [[Keta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68680&oldid=68677 * JonoCode9374 * (+1) /* DDoouubbllee SSppeeaakk */
11:08:47 <esowiki> [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68681&oldid=68680 * JonoCode9374 * (+1) /* N(e(s(t))) a string */
11:10:13 <myname> b_jonas: you _can_ do interesting bf-based languages, though. i like bf2d
11:10:40 <myname> or some of these self modifying variants
11:11:28 <myname> but simply replacing symbols with other symbols is the laest way to do something
11:11:38 <zoobab> url for bf2d?
11:12:22 <zoobab> no hits for bf2d on the wiki
11:13:19 <myname> http://think-strange.de/stuff/projects/brainfuck2d/
11:13:24 <b_jonas> myname: it's possible, but not recommended
11:14:29 <myname> yeah, if you can come up with something like that, you can probably do better
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11:55:31 <esowiki> [[User:Goldos24]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68682 * Hex96 * (+85) Created page with "Hi there ~~~~."
13:07:50 <esowiki> [[Keta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68683&oldid=68681 * A * (+149)
13:08:30 <esowiki> [[Keta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68684&oldid=68683 * A * (-9) Pretend that I'm the author as this is how the article is written
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13:28:34 <fizzie> `` rm /hackenv/bin/bfi; ln -s /hackenv/lib/kps/bfi /hackenv/bin/bfi # no need for actual copies that you can forget to delete though
13:28:36 <HackEso> No output.
13:28:50 <fizzie> s/delete/update/
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13:39:21 <fizzie> And really the interps integration is an alternative, not really an addition. I don't think anything actually uses that copy of 'bfi', since even ibin/asmbf just uses the one in the path.
13:39:35 <fizzie> `` rm /hackenv/interps/bfi
13:39:37 <HackEso> No output.
14:01:11 <esowiki> [[User:Goldos24]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68685&oldid=68682 * A * (-85) Editing a userpage seems inappropriate. Please put the message in the talk page instead.
14:05:46 <esowiki> [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68686&oldid=68684 * A * (-1) /* Very WIP Reference List */
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16:46:39 <esowiki> [[EE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68687 * Goldos24 * (+6705) Created page with "EE is an [[Esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Goldos24]] and '''MisterJaJo''' in 2019. It is just another fully backwards compatible one-dimensional brainfuck..."
17:23:39 <int-e> fungot: Do you think 3 minutes is a long time?
17:23:40 <fungot> int-e: ptah: known under various names ( nu, neph, cenubis, amen-kneph, khery-bakef), the lord rose and went forth halting; but there were nothing but two areas of blank skin.
17:46:34 <arseniiv_> ^style
17:46:34 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
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17:47:41 <arseniiv> how do you find pineapples, dear fungot?
17:47:41 <fungot> arseniiv: a wand of, *wand: ' i would do it; and a mighty figure with four arms. he is an abundance of food but, trusting his own excavations. ( don quixote of la mancha by miquel de cervantes saavedra)
17:48:14 <arseniiv> hm surreal enough
17:49:04 <arseniiv> today I found out about “session types” from this: https://github.com/dmbarbour/glas-lang/wiki/Why-Session-Types
17:49:27 <arseniiv> don’t know it they’re researched that well?
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18:17:22 <kmc> arseniiv: oh, Rust had that in its very early versions
18:17:42 <arseniiv> kmc: how did it go?
18:17:46 <kmc> I think
18:17:49 <kmc> or was that something else
18:17:50 <kmc> not sure
18:18:05 <arseniiv> ah
18:18:32 <kmc> maybe i'm confusing it with something else
18:18:34 <kmc> typestate
18:18:35 <kmc> that's it
18:18:42 <kmc> I think session types are just a bit unwieldy to use
18:19:05 <kmc> also there are libraries for various langs
18:19:09 <kmc> which obviates the need for a language feature
18:19:11 <kmc> http://munksgaard.me/papers/laumann-munksgaard-larsen.pdf
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19:11:46 <arseniiv> I’m recently quite into reading articles on extensible variants and records, though do I read them so slow because all other distractions…
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22:48:45 <b_jonas> `? mroman
22:48:47 <HackEso> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
22:48:47 <b_jonas> `? blsq
22:48:49 <HackEso> See: Burlesque
22:48:51 <b_jonas> `? burlesque
22:48:52 <HackEso> Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
22:50:07 <b_jonas> `learn Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. mroman created it for finance analysis because the traditionally used K and Dyalog APL are unreadable. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque )
22:50:21 <HackEso> Relearned 'burlesque': Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. mroman created it for finance analysis because the traditionally used K and Dyalog APL are unreadable. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque )
23:24:19 <zzo38> I may need some help to make the templates and so on for TeXnicard, so anyone who is interested in such thing should please to do so.
23:51:45 <zzo38> I remember some time ago someone on here mentioned a data format that you will just store in memory and then read it directly, without having to parse it to make a tree first, and that there is the requirement that it does not start with a valid UTF-8 character. I think the PostScript binary format satisfies this; I made a set of C macros to deal with it.
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00:56:53 <b_jonas> `? spood
00:56:55 <HackEso> spood? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:03:43 <zzo38> What is that?
01:03:46 <Lykaina> `? spoon
01:03:48 <HackEso> spoon? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:04:04 <b_jonas> `? ladle
01:04:12 <HackEso> ladle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:14:00 <imode> zzo38: I'd love to know what that is.
01:14:11 <imode> unless I was the one that said it..
01:16:46 <b_jonas> a spood is like a snoot but faster
01:16:57 <b_jonas> and less blue
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01:20:09 <b_jonas> `? lonk
01:20:18 <HackEso> lonk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:27:44 <b_jonas> `? lound
01:27:45 <HackEso> lound? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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02:02:33 <esowiki> [[Keta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68688&oldid=68686 * JonoCode9374 * (+67) Changed A's blurb about why Keta exists fo
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04:10:47 <oerjan> `? spood
04:10:50 <HackEso> spood? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:05:57 <moony> `? oerjan
05:05:59 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
05:06:14 <moony> `? HackEso
05:06:16 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
05:06:30 <moony> `? moony
05:06:32 <HackEso> moony is often named the following: moonythedwarf moonythehuman moonheart08 moon moon__ noomy computing and luxon, making porthellos and @tells a real pain.
05:07:10 <moony> `? moonythedwarf
05:07:11 <HackEso> moonythedwarf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:33:04 <oerjan> `dowg moonythedwarf
05:33:06 <HackEso> No output.
05:33:13 <oerjan> no such thing
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05:50:47 <zzo38> How to disable CSS transitions in Firefox?
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06:04:39 <kingoffrance> more css? (override)?
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06:16:13 <zzo38> Yes, I can do that, but I want to do it globally
06:42:25 <zzo38> Now I implemented the "fillspecial" command in TeXnicard, which can be used to draw translucent shapes on the card. (Other effects may be possible in future, but so far the only implemented effect is the /Opacity effect.)
06:45:09 <zzo38> What is the best way in a C program to send data to an external program and then read the result? I know a few ways, but what is a good way?
06:45:21 <zzo38> (Specifically, a C program on Linux)
06:48:04 <zzo38> What newsgroups/IRC can I see if someone else will be interested in my TeXnicard program?
06:50:49 <zzo38> Why in rogue you cannot strike an opponent standing in a doorway by a diagonal move?
07:16:16 <kingoffrance> i suppose in theory the door would be in the way, but that could go either way
07:16:30 <kingoffrance> and there is no way to query "which way is the door swinging" to my knowledge
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09:22:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: write data to a regular file, popen program for reading and pass the regular file to it as an argument or redirect
09:23:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think the doorway is implicitly in a narrow corridor that you can only exit straight because it doesn't extend to the corner of its square
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10:52:45 <esowiki> [[User:CarlosLuna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68689&oldid=66112 * CarlosLuna * (+5499) Adding my /// contributions
11:27:40 <Lykaina> hi
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13:35:26 <b_jonas> fungot, here are some arrows: ←↑→↓↔↕↤↥↦↧↨⇐⇒⇔
13:35:26 <fungot> b_jonas: trolls are described as rubbery: they keep bouncing back.
13:35:53 <fizzie> fungot: I'm pretty sure you just quoted that verbatim. Try to mix it up, will you?
13:35:53 <fungot> fizzie: eyes of the days of morgoth elves and men usurped the sunlight. then with a wand of polymorph. jackal's heart must never be eaten, for the service he had fled the responsibilities of ruling all that was about all they were, i was going to happen to you, don't step on a diet of metals. they are friendly. ( the immortals, by edith hamilton)
13:36:22 <fizzie> Sounds like a weird book.
13:37:06 <int-e> b_jonas: shoot!
13:37:24 <int-e> does unicode have darts?
13:37:45 <int-e> `unidecode 𐃘
13:37:46 <HackEso> ​[U+100D8 LINEAR B IDEOGRAM B254 DART]
13:38:01 <fizzie> `unicode BOW AND ARROW
13:38:07 <HackEso> U+1F3F9 BOW AND ARROW \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8f b9 UTF-16BE: d83cdff9 Decimal: &#127993; \ 🏹 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
13:38:08 <b_jonas> int-e: it has so many arrows (a lot, seriously) that some of them are probably darts
13:38:24 <int-e> b_jonas: But that's the only "dart" I found.
13:38:51 <fizzie> I don't have a bow-and-arrow character, apparently. :/
13:39:35 <b_jonas> int-e: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10-22.html#lX
13:39:44 <int-e> Works in firefox... it's one of the abominable colored glyphs.
13:40:15 <int-e> b_jonas: Still no dart.
13:40:27 <fizzie> Looking at gucharmap, I have a really spotty coverage of Miscellaneous Symbols and Pictographs.
13:41:09 <int-e> `unidecode 䈶鏢镖
13:41:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: do you have oren's font loaded?
13:41:40 <fizzie> Nno.
13:41:45 <b_jonas> `? font
13:41:46 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
13:41:47 <int-e> Somehow, gucharmap's "match whole word" thinks "dart," is a word.
13:42:36 <fizzie> "TWO SPEECH BUBBLES = chat" "THREE SPEECH BUBBLES = conference"
13:42:48 <int-e> (so "dart" does not find those CJK symbols that have "dart," in their description.)
13:43:03 <int-e> FOUR SPEECH BUBBLES = tower of babel?
13:43:31 <int-e> FIVE SPEECH BUBBLES = social media
13:43:54 <fizzie> 📈🗠📉, 📊
13:44:05 <int-e> `unidecode 📈🗠📉📊
13:44:20 <fizzie> Heh, "U+1F573 HOLE = portable hole".
13:44:30 <fizzie> I guess it's the character rather than the hole that's portable.
13:44:41 <int-e> fizzie: Bonus points if it's black.
13:45:14 <int-e> Or otherwise bottomless.
13:46:56 <int-e> Is there a Linear B brainfuck clone? I'd imagine that could look kind of cute, especially if you assign several symbols to each operation.
13:47:26 <b_jonas> int-e: do you mean a Learn B trivial brainfuck substitution?
13:47:42 <int-e> b_jonas: Obviously.
13:47:58 <b_jonas> there's probably a generic one that assigns a brainfuck command to a lot of unicode characters
13:48:31 <int-e> Hmm, right, there could be something close to a union-of-all-brainfuck-substitutions.
13:48:39 <int-e> ("close" because there's bound to be overlap)
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15:31:41 <b_jonas> `unidecode 
15:31:42 <HackEso> ​[U+F51F - No such unicode character name in database]
15:33:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I missed that you rendered "Linear" as "Learn" earlier... was that an accident?
15:34:03 <b_jonas> int-e: oh... that was an accident
15:34:08 <b_jonas> I don't know why I typed that
15:34:17 <b_jonas> probably "Learn" is more in my hands than "Linear"
15:34:20 <b_jonas> more common word
15:35:17 <b_jonas> like, yesterday I couldn't type "spiny" first try like ten times, because I kept typing it as "spony" and having to backspace
15:35:27 <b_jonas> because "pony" is a word but "piny" is not
15:38:34 <int-e> Well, brains are weird.
15:43:14 <esowiki> [[Burlesque]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68690&oldid=45225 * B jonas * (+30) https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-12-31.html#lyg "also I used it at work [...] my supervisor was shocked"
15:44:16 <b_jonas> fungot, when does GDQ start?
15:44:16 <fungot> b_jonas: they say that some shopkeepers recognize gems but they are quite difficult to grasp. blood-drinking bestiality, voracious appetites, hunger in search of prey, but, instead of teeth; it is saint peter's holy day. if that event takes place, perhaps it was only a humanoid creature can be a now dry little watercourse. bilbo was a time xans would never scratch your boots.
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16:18:31 <fizzie> Handy, they've added a "detected as X" note to the "all times are converted to your local time" message in the schedule page.
16:19:10 <fizzie> Now if they could only this time around shade the blocks in the past, highlight the currently running one, put a red line where we're now, or *something* like that.
16:27:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that about the GDQ schedule?
16:32:16 <fizzie> Yes.
16:34:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: but GDQ is sponsored by twitch, so they must go for webpages that are so heavy with client-side scripts that they're impossible to load in anything but a modern computer, even though other pages can show better quality videos easily on the same computer
16:35:01 <b_jonas> it wouldn't be twitch-like otherwise
16:35:18 <b_jonas> a simple server-side addition of a red line marking the current time wouldn't cut it
16:35:28 <b_jonas> it has to load a huge javascript library
16:36:51 <b_jonas> also, why don't the bash builtins pushd and popd have a single-letter switch to quiet their normal output?
16:38:04 <kspalaiologos> https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/51423495#51423495
16:38:05 <fizzie> The client-side local time conversion is pretty light. I mean, discounting jQuery.
16:38:21 <kspalaiologos> looks like our evil villain was there all the time :p
16:39:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: they have to add more stuff to that schedule page then
16:39:50 <b_jonas> dunno, mouseover popups to show the donation choices
16:40:25 <b_jonas> a sort widget
16:40:51 <b_jonas> or just no functionality, just loading and constructing the page content in javascript
16:41:47 <fizzie> Oh, is Twitch owned by Amazon? I didn't know that.
16:41:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: dunno but that seems likely
16:42:38 <fizzie> I was seeing all these "Subscribed with Twitch Prime" things, and thought they'd just copied the name, but apparently it's actually an Amazon subsidiary.
16:43:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: the Twitch Prime thing means that if you subscribe for Amazon Prime and pair your Amazon account with the Twitch account, you get some "free" stuff on Twitch
16:43:49 <b_jonas> twitch advertises that very agressively
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17:10:13 <b_jonas> `8-ball I can't find my gloves. Should I unpack the mess from the shelf where they're supposed to be?
17:10:17 <HackEso> It is certain.
17:10:24 <b_jonas> well ok
17:10:58 <kspalaiologos> `8ball should I get bfbot up and running?
17:10:59 <HackEso> Very doubtful.
17:11:13 <kspalaiologos> `8ball should I rewrite it in Java
17:11:14 <HackEso> Yes definitely.
17:11:20 <kspalaiologos> my lovely bot
17:11:35 <kspalaiologos> he knows what's good
17:12:37 <kspalaiologos> `8ball what about elixir?
17:12:38 <HackEso> Yes definitely.
17:17:38 <b_jonas> 8-ball: you're right, they were there. I found three and a half pairs
17:17:50 <b_jonas> in Java? why?
17:18:22 <b_jonas> well sure, if you want, implement it in Java
17:29:46 <kspalaiologos> I like JAva
17:29:51 <kspalaiologos> why shouldn't implement it in Java
17:30:12 <b_jonas> if you like Java then sure, it's probably fine for this purpose
17:30:19 <kspalaiologos> or Elixir
17:30:22 <kspalaiologos> a hard decision
17:30:37 <b_jonas> I guess it's better than implementing an URL shortener in brainfuck
17:30:41 <kspalaiologos> `8ball Java (-) or Elixir (+)?
17:30:41 <HackEso> Concentrate and ask again.
17:30:46 <kspalaiologos> oh c'mon
17:31:00 <b_jonas> Java is a much better choice than brainfuck for this
17:31:07 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, I'll do it on other occasion
17:31:11 <kspalaiologos> lmao, sure it is
17:31:15 <b_jonas> and we have a bot implemented in befunge
17:31:42 <kspalaiologos> `8ball Java (-) or Elixir (+)?
17:31:43 <HackEso> Cannot predict now.
17:31:46 <kspalaiologos> `8ball Java (-) or Elixir (+)?
17:31:47 <HackEso> It is certain.
17:31:47 <b_jonas> and mroman mentioned that he should implement blsqbot in blsq
17:32:05 <kspalaiologos> gah
17:32:09 <kspalaiologos> I need to modify my todolist
17:32:11 <b_jonas> and NotJack implemented a J evaluator bot in J
17:32:37 <kspalaiologos> . o O (soon: and kspalaiologos implemented a Brainfuck bot in Brainfuck)
17:32:47 <b_jonas> heck, I implemented my IRC bots in ruby 1.8, that's actually a worse choice than Java too
17:33:39 <b_jonas> it seemed like a good idea at the time
17:34:21 <kspalaiologos> I guess for this approach with brainfuck bot
17:34:22 <b_jonas> (actually back then they were started in ruby 1.6, but I ported them to 1.8 later)
17:34:44 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: the problem with a brainfuck bot in brainfuck is that a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck might be slow
17:34:54 <kspalaiologos> depends
17:35:00 <kspalaiologos> last time I used the Tritium interpreter
17:35:03 <kspalaiologos> and it was quite fast if you ask me
17:35:10 <b_jonas> you don't need much performance for just the IRC part
17:35:10 <kspalaiologos> and if it's too slow I can compile the brainfuck to optimized C
17:36:00 <fizzie> The zemhill of the underscores is done in Ruby too.
17:36:27 <b_jonas> but for the brainfuck part, your goal was that it should be able to run programs that take more time than what fungоt is willing to run
17:37:09 <b_jonas> and FireFly eventually ported jevalbot to ruby 2.something
17:37:22 <kspalaiologos> nice evasion
17:37:31 <kspalaiologos> of activating fungóts markov chains
17:38:36 <FireFly> fsvo 'ported'
17:38:52 <FireFly> I don't know ruby, and changed a handful of things it complained about to get it running (like 3-4 places or so)
17:39:20 <kspalaiologos> J seems like an intritiguing language
17:39:33 <FireFly> [ 'hi'
17:39:34 <j-bot> FireFly: hi
17:39:37 <FireFly> ok, it's still alive
17:39:44 <kspalaiologos> but why would anyone write in such an language
17:39:47 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: it used to be a decent language, but it's old and maintained in the wrong way just like perl is
17:39:51 <kspalaiologos> it literally looks like Malbolge but scarier
17:39:55 <b_jonas> what? no
17:39:58 <kspalaiologos> Perl is awesome
17:40:02 <b_jonas> malbolge? no way
17:40:09 <kspalaiologos> quicksort=: (($:@(<#[), (=#[), $:@(>#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1<#)
17:40:13 <FireFly> APLs are very handy as ridiculously owerful calculators
17:40:14 <kspalaiologos> It literally looks like hell on earth
17:40:42 <kingoffrance> nah, that aint nothing kspalaiologos
17:40:44 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I think that expression is not something that people seriously write, it's just something people write to show off how ugly J is. there's a builtin sort operation.
17:41:10 <kspalaiologos> kingoffrance, let me show you my 50 entry PPCG Malbolge repo
17:41:11 <FireFly> well, it's a combination of being used to read it, of formatting/clarity, and of choosing a reasonable example
17:41:36 <kspalaiologos> I mean
17:41:37 <FireFly> I mean you can point at IOCCC and complain that C is a ridiculous language (which, well, wouldn't be the wrong conclusion, but...)
17:41:38 <FireFly> :p
17:41:47 <kspalaiologos> it was example given on Wikipedia
17:41:53 <FireFly> Honestly, I mostly use J as a ridiculously powerful calculator
17:41:54 <kspalaiologos> I didn't think that they are ranting J
17:41:56 <FireFly> fair
17:42:21 <kspalaiologos> 1:`($:@-&2+$:@<:)@.(>&2)
17:42:22 <kspalaiologos> fibonacci
17:42:26 <kspalaiologos> C'mon man
17:42:30 <kspalaiologos> it's literally write only
17:42:31 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: have you written quicksort in other languages, and doesn't it also look bad?
17:42:44 <kspalaiologos> it looks decent
17:42:49 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: that's also not something that people would write
17:42:57 <FireFly> There's many ways to implement fibonacci, and that one is one of the less natural ones in J
17:43:04 <b_jonas> it's one of the worst ones
17:43:13 <b_jonas> just try running it with 100 as the argument
17:43:17 <FireFly> it's a bit like insisting on writing an imperative solution in Haskell, instead of a functional one
17:43:28 <kspalaiologos> I don't understand a single character
17:43:29 <kspalaiologos> of this code
17:43:44 <FireFly> have you seen the Dyalog APL video on Game of Life?
17:43:50 <kspalaiologos> but it looks seductively
17:43:52 <FireFly> it's pretty neat
17:43:58 <FireFly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4
17:44:03 <b_jonas> it's like fibo 1 = 1; fibo 2 = 1; fibo k = fibo (k - 1) + fibo (k - 2); would you actually write that in Haskell?
17:44:07 <FireFly> (APL and J are similar enough that the concepts translate
17:44:30 <kspalaiologos> I don't know haskell
17:44:36 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: what? not even the 2 in the middle, which is used to subtract 2 from the index?
17:44:37 <kspalaiologos> not a FP guy
17:44:47 <b_jonas> or the - which is used to do that subtraction?
17:44:52 <FireFly> [ 1 2 3 4
17:44:53 <j-bot> FireFly: 1 2 3 4
17:44:57 <FireFly> [ 1+2+3+4
17:44:57 <j-bot> FireFly: 10
17:45:00 <FireFly> [ +/ 1 2 3 4
17:45:01 <kspalaiologos> so it essentially subtracts & from @, right?
17:45:01 <j-bot> FireFly: 10
17:45:14 <b_jonas> well no
17:45:44 <b_jonas> oh right, a better analog in Haskell would be a stupid pointfree one
17:46:06 <b_jonas> with Applicative <*> and whatnot inside, so you can claim that it subtracts <&> from <*> or however that works
17:46:54 <b_jonas> but I'm not fluent in Haskell to write that
17:47:16 <kingoffrance> kspalaiologos, its not the bottle of poison labelled poison you have to worry about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar19vwtxEKs youd have to convince me your code comes dressed as a goddess and then morphs into death; malbolge i dont think makes any illusions about rescuing people :)
17:47:43 <kingoffrance> its called "malbolge" we know it cant be good
17:47:43 <kspalaiologos> lmao
17:48:08 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: "Python" is labeled as poisonous too
17:48:27 <kingoffrance> lol
17:48:35 <kspalaiologos> <s> it's called JavaScript we know it can't be good </s>
17:49:41 <b_jonas> yes, I know it's a stupid example because pythons are actually constricting, not venomous
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19:11:51 <kspalaiologos> https://pastebin.com/nSFkfczB
19:11:59 <kspalaiologos> malbolge interpreter in prefix-RLE'd Brainfuck
19:12:07 <kspalaiologos> it looks amazing
19:12:25 <kspalaiologos> and it's just 10KB
19:12:48 <kspalaiologos> the drawback being, it requires 16bit-cells
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19:13:02 <kspalaiologos> and requires minimum of 700 bytes of memory
19:13:11 <kspalaiologos> with a simple hello world loaded
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19:24:46 <int-e> I'm confused; 700 bytes is small.
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19:28:16 <zzo38> Yes, but it is a lot for Hello World
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19:36:35 <kspalaiologos> 300 bytes for xlat's, 100 bytes for crazyop table and 9 powers,
19:36:58 <kspalaiologos> yet the xlat's are stored in rcl/sto memory region
19:37:13 <kspalaiologos> and due to my stupidness, it's size is multiplied by two
19:37:29 <kspalaiologos> so it could be done in 400 bytes without doubt
19:37:38 <kspalaiologos> but the +300 overhead is constant for all the programs
19:42:30 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68691&oldid=68079 * OsmineYT * (+19)
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20:57:31 <zzo38> Now TeXnicard is able to use a code such as: 100 100 setpagesize /Courier 10 selectfont 20 30 moveto (Hello) show << /Opacity 0.5 >> seteffect 1 0 0 setrgbcolor newpath 20 20 moveto 20 40 lineto 40 30 lineto fillspecial In interactive mode, you must put . at the beginning to indicate that it is a PostScript code, and then the next line you can write ^0 to make a preview.
20:58:07 <zzo38> The quality of the text rendering isn't very good, but I would later add the ability to use TeX fonts, and then it will be good.
20:58:26 <zzo38> Also, are there any other effects other than opacity that you think would be useful to implement in here?
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21:04:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sholus * New user account
21:12:39 <b_jonas> ooh! Super Monkey Ball is finally back to GDQ! And this time it's warpless
21:16:56 <b_jonas> nice! Super Mario World one mind 11 exit coop. that will be worth to see.
21:21:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68692&oldid=68672 * Sholus * (+169) /* Introductions */
21:34:09 <b_jonas> someone pointed out how the D&D rules imply that it's practically impossible to see the Sun and the Moon, because the bonus you get to see large objects is logarithmic in their size, but the penalty for seeing distant objects is linear in the distant
21:35:48 <zzo38> O, then better rules should be written, I suppose.
21:41:51 <b_jonas> the penalty is -1 point per 10 feet of distance, so it's too high even if you choose to apply only the -3333 points for the 10 kilometers of the atmosphere
21:46:43 <zzo38> GURPS rules is different; there is adjustments for both distance and for size; 3 yards is 1, 100 yards is 10, 100 miles is 30, etc; you add for size and subtract for distance. (If it is smaller than 2 yards then there is also a penalty for size.)
21:47:21 <zzo38> These same numbers are used for ranged attacks (such as arrows, guns, spit poison, etc)
21:49:10 <zzo38> These seem to be better than D&D, but I don't know if better rules could be made. I think what they did wrong with the GURPS is they have a table but failed to mention the equation which generates the table.
21:55:07 <b_jonas> how much is the penalty for 8 miles?
21:55:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: -24
22:01:43 <b_jonas> that doesn't seem bad. and how much bonus do you add to that for an object of 116 meters diameter, which is about how large the moon looks like at that distance
22:02:06 <b_jonas> (or 380 feet diameter)
22:03:08 <zzo38> Eleven
22:04:39 <b_jonas> in D&D, you get +4 bonus for every power of two that the object is larger than a human
22:04:41 <zzo38> But probably the full size should be used and not only the apparent size
22:04:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: possibly
22:05:24 <b_jonas> the diameter of the Moon is 3.5 megameters
22:05:26 <zzo38> GURPS also has penalties for darkness, from -1 to -9, or no penalty if it is bright.
22:06:08 <b_jonas> that makes sense, and it might matter for the Sun
22:06:48 <zzo38> It also says there is a bonus of +10 to spot something in plain sight (such as seeing a car is coming toward you on the road).
22:07:46 <b_jonas> that may apply if there are no clouds
22:07:58 <b_jonas> or no clouds covering the Moon or Sun at least
22:08:19 <b_jonas> and you're outdoors
22:09:37 <b_jonas> and the Sun or Moon is above the horizon
22:12:30 <zzo38> Yes, I think that makes sense.
22:41:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mikadio * New user account
22:52:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68693&oldid=68692 * Mikadio * (+263)
22:55:04 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68694&oldid=67306 * Mikadio * (+145)
23:32:59 <b_jonas> `? calesyta
23:33:01 <HackEso> calesyta? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:37:46 <zzo38> Would it be work to use pipe() to create a pipe and then use popen() and pass the other end of the pipe using /proc/.../fd/ files?
23:47:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's usually a bad idea, because you can deadlock yourself when both your program and the other program are blocked on a write with a full pipe
23:47:53 <b_jonas> so it only works if you use an event loop or something to check for when the read pipe is readable and when the write pipe is writable
23:47:59 <b_jonas> and read or write respectively
23:48:09 <b_jonas> it can be done, but in most cases it's not worth, unless you really need interactivity
23:48:40 <zzo38> O, yes, that is right. Is there some other way that you need not make a disk file?
23:49:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: make a file in a tmp file system and have no swap?
23:49:50 <b_jonas> usually I don't think it's worth to avoid creating files
23:49:57 <b_jonas> unless you tell why you really need that
23:50:26 <zzo38> I don't want to prevent swap, only to not add a file into the system.
23:50:39 <zzo38> (It is up to the operating system to decide whether or not to swap out)
23:50:49 <b_jonas> like for ugly privacy requirements where you want to limit what attackers can do if they can get physical access to your computer or root access after your program has finished
23:51:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: then just create a file on a tmpfs
23:52:34 <b_jonas> but if you really want, you can use an event loop and handle both the read and write pipes, buffering everything in memory
23:52:46 <b_jonas> just make sure to read all the data you can from the read pipe, even if you don't yet need it
23:52:57 <zzo38> I don't know much about tmpfs, but perhaps that would work
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23:53:36 <b_jonas> or you can spawn a separate thread or process for one end of the pipe if you want to waste more resources than a file
23:53:58 <b_jonas> but generally, if you don't need interactivity, just use a file
23:54:30 <zzo38> My computer says that /run is tmpfs
23:54:41 <b_jonas> if the input data is really short and the process you're spawning is suitable, you may be able to pass all the data in argv
23:56:20 <zzo38> Wikipedia says that tmpfs is used on /tmp but I do not see that on my computer.
23:57:02 <b_jonas> no, it's usually not on /tmp , though it is in some setups
23:57:12 <b_jonas> but you can mount any number of them
23:57:45 <b_jonas> basically it's just a file system that stores all its data in the file system caches, and never flushes those caches
23:59:11 <b_jonas> plus some extra magic so you can customize how much (virtual) memory it can consume and give ENOSPC when you try to consume more
23:59:25 <b_jonas> the data it uses can be swapped out
23:59:42 <b_jonas> if you have swaps set up, obviously
00:00:09 <b_jonas> it's a "new" thing, in the sense that it became used during the time I've been using linux
00:01:17 <b_jonas> earlier we only had ordinary file systems backed on ramdisks, which are like flat virtual devices that are stored in the (virtual) memory, swappable, but then the kernel has to do most of the work that it would have to do to represent the file system on a (very fast) flat block device
00:01:18 <zzo38> Specifically the data I want the external program to read is a blob in a SQLite database; maybe I should have mentioned that at first.
00:01:29 <b_jonas> so tmpfs is more efficient
00:01:49 <b_jonas> DOS also supports ramdisk
00:02:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: but what does the program that you spawn do with its input and output?
00:03:00 <zzo38> Converts it into a different format.
00:03:33 <b_jonas> are the input and output very large? do you need interactivity, that is, do you want to get part of the output while you're still streaming the input?
00:03:41 <b_jonas> and what do you do with the output?
00:03:51 <zzo38> (And actually it isn't the entire blob; a few bytes at the beginning will be skipped, and this number may vary.)
00:04:51 <zzo38> The input and output are potentially large, because it is a picture of the art in a card (e.g. the art box in a Magic: the Gathering card).
00:04:55 <b_jonas> also is the sql database in a file that is slow to read, and do you want to be able to stop reading early in case of an error?
00:05:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: just small vs large doesn't matter (unless it's so small that you just pass it in the argv), I'm asking if it can be very large
00:05:36 <b_jonas> so it's not too large
00:05:37 <zzo38> It might be very large if you are printing at a high resolution.
00:06:19 <zzo38> The SQL database is already open by the main program (TeXnicard; maybe telling it is TeXnicard is also useful to you I don't know)
00:07:17 <b_jonas> I'd probably just write the input data to a temporary regular file on a fast file system. if you can conveniently pass file descriptors to the program that you spawn, then unlink the file and pass just a file descriptor, that way if something goes wrong it's less likely that you have the temp file file remain on the disk.
00:08:16 <b_jonas> you usually don't even need an actual tmpfs, if you don't have security requirements, because if everything fits in memory and you delete the file soon then the file won't leave the cache, and if it doesn't fit in memory then writing it out to the disk is a feature,
00:08:48 <b_jonas> but if you have a fast swap device and no readily accessible file system on the fast device and no file system cache on the fast device, then you may want a tmpfs anyway
00:08:55 <b_jonas> but that's not a common configuration these days
00:09:56 <b_jonas> linux can now even handle the case when you store the file system on a slower rotating disk but cache it on a large SSD, because this is getting a commonly useful case
00:10:10 <b_jonas> you have to configure it well, and I don't know the details, but I hear it's working well
00:10:19 <zzo38> I didn't know it has that, but I thought of that too.
00:10:52 <b_jonas> that need not be true if you're using old operating system software though, but then you likely won't have a fast SSD
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00:11:36 <b_jonas> I don't really know what happens on Windows, I deliberately avoid all system administration responsibilities for Windows and don't want to learn more than I really need for my job
00:11:57 <b_jonas> i.e. I don't work in system administration, but I need to administer my work desktop a bit to just use it for work
00:12:31 <zzo38> I could write the data from the database to an external file and then pass that to the external program and then read back the output into memory, I suppose, since the output is likely to be larger than the input, but then that requires making a copy of the data
00:12:53 <b_jonas> what will you do with the output?
00:12:59 <b_jonas> will you send it to a printer?
00:13:18 <b_jonas> or show it on the screen?
00:15:14 <zzo38> It will be combined with an in-memory picture
00:15:23 <b_jonas> I think this case hasn't come up for me, because I always just had the compressed image or video data stored in a disk file, and the raw data in memory going through a pipe
00:16:37 <b_jonas> in one case the uncompressed data was also in a disk file, but in a format that I had to decode in my program (not sqlite specifically), but even then the other side, the compressed data went to disk files
00:20:18 <zzo38> In my case the compressed data is in a SQLite database rather than a file by itself, and there should not be any need to store the uncompressed data in any file. The blob starts with a flag byte and then the MIME type (omitting "image/" if it belongs to that category, otherwise the full MIME type) and then the data in the format specified by the MIME type, and the configuration file specifies how to decode it.
00:21:08 <b_jonas> and I presume the same database contains other metadata over just the images
00:21:19 <b_jonas> which is why you don't just store the compressed image in a separate file
00:23:24 <zzo38> Yes, that is true.
00:23:56 <zzo38> And that is why it isn't stored in a separate file.
00:30:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you want to eg. send the uncompressed data to the printer, you can consider trying to not send that data through your process, so that your process only send ths compressed image to the forked process, and then the convereted output from that process is sent to whatever program does the printing
00:31:56 <b_jonas> then you don't need any non-blocking things
00:32:09 <b_jonas> but it's also not too hard to handle the two pipes in a select loop if you really need to
00:32:32 <zzo38> That picture is not the entire card, though, but only a part of it. And there is no guarantee that there will not be other stuff overlapping, or other things done to it before the page is completed.
00:33:21 <zzo38> (This program is meant to render cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering; like MSE but different.)
00:33:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: and you want to process that uncompressed data together with some other data you read from the database, which is why you want it in the same process?
00:33:56 <zzo38> Yes.
00:34:42 <b_jonas> well, then either write something to a temporary file (that you unlink when you no longer need), or use a select loop to read and write the pipe in an unknown order
00:35:04 <b_jonas> if you need both sides from the same process then that's mostly what you can do
00:35:42 <b_jonas> though for some converters, you may be sure that it won't start writing even a header before it completely reads its input, in which case you can just write the input to the pipe and then read the output, without select or nonblocking
00:35:59 <b_jonas> that can depend on the converter and its options
00:36:05 <zzo38> Yes, OK. Probably I will just copy the data from the database to a temporary file when doing it, I suppose; that seems to be easily enough.
00:36:25 <zzo38> Yes, about what you said about the converter is true, but such thing is not known by this program
00:37:18 <b_jonas> of course another possibility is to also put the converter in the same process
00:37:30 <b_jonas> which I could do with ImageMagick in particualr
00:37:50 <b_jonas> because it has some dynamic libraries and documented interfaces
00:37:57 <b_jonas> C and C++ interfaces
00:38:30 <b_jonas> I think those allow reading compressed image streams from in memory, though I haven't actually tried that
00:38:46 <zzo38> Yes, although I am not even knowing if it is a format supported by ImageMagick or not, for one thing.
00:39:08 <b_jonas> even for embedding, I read/wrote the compressed image from/to disk files, I just manipulated the uncompressed image data in memory of the same process
00:39:39 <zzo38> (I can easily change how it communicates with the external program later if needed, I suppose.)
00:40:41 <b_jonas> sure, but you can do this with some libraries other than ImageMagick too
00:41:23 <b_jonas> there are good reasons for that, beacuse ImageMagick doesn't natively support everything
00:42:57 <zzo38> The way I have though, the user can install only the ones they need, rather than needing to add all of the dependencies that you don't use
00:42:59 <b_jonas> though you can also do conversion to a more convenient image format when you're importing to the database, and later read that convenient (but still compressed) input format with ImageMagick
00:44:19 <b_jonas> this can happen if you scan or photograph the card, but then preprocess the image and store the cleaned up image in the database as a jpeg
00:46:31 <b_jonas> that's when you can also rotate and crop and color correct the scan/photo, not just convert formats
00:46:40 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that can also work, although then I wouldn't need to support more than one format inside the process (since conversion from any other format can be done before importing into the database), but JPEG is probably not a good choice in this case because JPEG is lossy.
00:47:29 <zzo38> (Also, the picture is not necessarily RGB and it might be CMYK instead.)
00:47:35 <b_jonas> you can still have more than one formats, since ImageMagick handles multiple formats with a natively built in decoder
00:48:00 <b_jonas> ImageMagick abstracts away some of those format differences
00:49:27 <zzo38> Probably only the artwork of the card would be stored in the database; the border pictures would be in external files.
00:49:33 <b_jonas> sure
00:49:47 <b_jonas> that doesn't change much of what I said
00:50:04 <b_jonas> mind you, these days there are too many cards with art extending outside the borders that you might not want to do that
00:50:18 <b_jonas> for the inner and middle borders that is
00:50:36 <b_jonas> you can do it with the outer black (or white) border, except for Un-sets
00:51:37 <b_jonas> but if you're assembling your own cards from art that you have, then you might store different elements of the card separately
00:51:38 <zzo38> Whether or not the art extends outside of the border wouldn't be built into the program anyways, since that stuff can be controlled by templates.
00:52:03 <zzo38> Have you used Magic Set Editor?
00:52:22 <b_jonas> one image for the art box, one image for the inner and middle border and text box, one for the text box watermark, and some for mana symbols
00:52:26 <b_jonas> no, I haven't used it
00:53:11 <b_jonas> I haven't created physical custom Magic cards, except simple proxies by putting a handwritten slip of paper next to the card inside the sleeve
00:54:39 <zzo38> Different elements of the card would be stored separately, some stuff (specific to these individual cards and the set) in the database, and other stuff (applicable to any cards) in the template.
00:57:36 <zzo38> If you are interested in TeXnicard then you should probably join the newsgroups of it. Also, for mana symbols I would probably want to use fonts instead (MSE uses pictures for the mana symbols, but I think to use fonts for the mana symbols will be better).
00:58:23 <b_jonas> sure, if you have a font that contains all forty-something mana symbols, then that can work
00:58:43 <b_jonas> plus the tap and untap symbol
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01:02:10 <zzo38> Yes.
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01:12:26 <zzo38> Do you think some special effects other than opacity might be needed?
01:32:02 <Lykaina> hi
01:32:15 <zzo38> Hello
01:32:27 <Lykaina> do we discuss magic the gathering in here?
01:33:36 <Lykaina> my usual irc channel for it is inactive atm
01:36:04 <zzo38> This channel isn't mainly for Magic: the Gathering, but sometimes we will discuss anything including Magic: the Gathering if there isn't the esoteric programming to discuss at the time, I suppose.
01:36:22 <zzo38> Do you like to make up custom Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:36:26 <zzo38> Or puzzles?
01:37:12 <Lykaina> https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nylea-based-mono-g/
01:37:23 <Lykaina> look good?
01:37:40 <Lykaina> that was the question i asked
01:39:00 <zzo38> I don't know much about looking if a deck is good or not.
01:41:02 <Lykaina> oh shit...i have more than 1 of a card and the format is edh
01:43:20 <zzo38> Oops, yes you are correct, you have 2x Ripjaw Raptor
01:43:31 <zzo38> That won't do, so you will have to change it
01:47:05 <zzo38> I also invented a file format for deck lists
01:51:41 <Lykaina> cool
01:51:50 <Lykaina> anyone use it?
01:52:29 <zzo38> I don't know.
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01:55:03 <zzo38> Here is a file using that format: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/decks/making_enemies.deck
01:55:31 <zzo38> For the commander, use a [COMMAND] block.
01:55:45 <zzo38> (The <DECK1> and <DECK2> are not needed if it is a single deck.)
01:56:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68695&oldid=68694 * Mikadio * (-28) /* Code that actually works as required */
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02:10:53 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68696&oldid=68695 * Mikadio * (-3) /* Code that actually works as required */
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04:02:03 <imode> if you build a tool, and it has no purpose, what's the point of the tool?
04:03:35 <zzo38> I don't know.
04:06:09 <\oren\> should I rewrite my font editor in Rust?
04:08:18 <imode> what's the purpose?
04:37:42 <\oren\> it has a memory leak and I can't find it
04:38:05 <\oren\> if I rewrite it in rust, that is supposed to mean it can't have memory leaks
04:38:11 <zzo38> What font formats does it use?
04:38:15 <\oren\> CDF
04:38:19 <\oren\> BDF
04:38:28 <zzo38> OK
04:38:34 <zzo38> What is it written in now?
04:38:37 <\oren\> C
04:38:49 <zzo38> OK. Did you publish it?
04:43:59 <zzo38> I have read of use of farbfeld compressed with bzip2 for picture compression. However, if a picture is in JPEG format then it seem JPEG is a better compression, but farbfeld compressed with bzip2 will be a better compression than PNG in some cases.
04:44:29 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters_tools.tar
04:44:47 <zzo38> OK
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04:56:02 <zzo38> What transformations can be done to improve JPEG compression without being more lossy?
04:56:16 <zzo38> (Assuming the file that you are trying to transform is already JPEG)
05:09:36 <imode> \oren\: valgrind?
05:10:15 <imode> how do I build this?
05:11:20 <imode> and do you have a sample file?
05:11:39 <imode> built it, now I need a sample file.
05:16:50 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters.bdf
05:17:39 <zzo38> You could also try pcf2bdf
05:18:37 <\oren\> oh and it also need s UnicodeData.txt from the unicode foundation
05:18:52 <imode> mind linking me that?
05:19:18 <imode> nvm.
05:19:35 <\oren\> (this is how it displays the names) https://www.unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/UnicodeData.txt
05:19:58 <imode> interesting..
05:20:04 <imode> how do I exit the editor?
05:20:12 <\oren\> ctrl-Q
05:20:24 <\oren\> or ctrl-X to exit without saving
05:21:32 <imode> interesting, yeah that's quite the memory leak. let's see if you clean up your allocated space.
05:21:46 <zzo38> What if you want to make a non-Unicode font though? Then the Unicode data is not applicable.
05:21:55 <imode> it looks like you never clean up the file judging by the size of the leak. the input BDF was ~3mb.
05:22:02 <\oren\> oh
05:22:04 <\oren\> hmmm
05:22:43 <imode> 4,347,372 bytes allocated and in-use at exit, but no double frees.
05:23:15 <\oren\> ok I'
05:23:30 <\oren\> fix that and then see if it still has a leak
05:24:24 <imode> I'm not that far in but I don't see any buffer cleanup, yeah.
05:26:26 <imode> when you load the font, you `malloc` quite a bit of stuff and attach it to the passed-in bdfinfo, but I don't see you freeing it.
05:26:42 <\oren\> I guess I kinda forgot that valgrind can't tell the difference between things still accessable at exit and things that have "actually" leaked
05:26:45 <imode> that plus a calloc and no free.
05:27:04 <imode> yeah you haven't lost the references to anything, you just haven't cleaned up the stuff you have references to.
05:27:44 <imode> you `calloc` a big ol' hunk of space for some glyphs but you never free them.
05:29:48 <imode> this is if you just load a font file, save and close. I imagine if you open another, you'll do the same allocations and lose the previous references.
05:29:57 <zzo38> I think valgrind can tell you which one is "lost", though.
05:30:27 <imode> it can and will.
05:30:55 <\oren\> yeah apparently I'm bad at know what valgrind is saying
05:33:01 <\oren\> I thought it meant I actually lost reference to that much
05:33:11 <imode> nah, just means it's in use at exit.
05:33:22 <imode> you'll see that with SDL and a couple of other libs.
05:36:32 <\oren\> I'm going to work on making these tools more flexible and possible to work on fonts with different dimensions
05:37:06 <imode> I dig the editing aesthetic. a lot of the glyphs are broken for me though.
05:37:52 <\oren\> Well it relies on my fon't particular method of displaying braille to look good
05:38:02 <imode> oh no the braile works great.
05:38:17 <imode> this is garbage on my screen, though: "𝔅𝔇𝔉𝕖𝕕𝕚𝕥"
05:38:42 <imode> too compressed I guess.
05:41:56 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/GKQKGJG
05:42:37 <imode> ah yeah, I can kinda see the edit part. capitals are just totally gone, though. my terminal is trying lmao.
05:42:38 <\oren\> it says BDF in fraktur and edit in blackboard bold
05:43:41 <\oren\> In my font, bold fraktur I gave up on and I made it uncial instead
05:43:50 <imode> looks solid on that screen.
05:45:39 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/yCgc3Kv I like how the unicode consortium added all these but then was like, full superscript and subscript alphabets? that's too far
05:46:23 <imode> unicode doesn't have those? wtf.
05:47:49 <\oren\> superscript small q, large C, Q, S, X, Y, Z are all that is missing for superscript
05:48:29 <zzo38> I made up a better character set for the specific use of being used on a fix pitch text grid, such as on a terminal emulator.
05:48:29 <\oren\> ᵃᵇᶜᵈᵉᶠᵍʰⁱʲᵏˡᵐⁿᵒᵖ ʳˢᵗᵘᵛʷˣʸᶻ
05:48:46 <imode> why the hell are they missing?!
05:49:06 <imode> what do they have against q, C, Q, S, X, Y and Z?
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05:49:24 <\oren\> there was a big argument on the Unicode mailing list about it
05:49:47 <\oren\> and basically the rasoning was, unicode isn't supposed to be used for formatting
05:49:54 <imode> bullshit.
05:50:01 <imode> that reasoning is bullshit.
05:50:02 <\oren\> it is bullshit
05:50:22 <imode> isn't there a character reversal glyph.
05:50:41 <imode> U+202E?
05:50:42 <zzo38> Unicode is very messy, and is equally bad for all uses.
05:51:42 <zzo38> However, it does have the advantage of being compatible with ASCII, at least.
05:51:46 <imode> yeah, bullshit, there's many, many, _many_ cases where unicode makes explicit statements about how a thing should be formatted. if that was a disagreement, the super and subscript forms shouldn't even be included, not this half measure.
05:54:23 <zzo38> Do you like my terminal character coding? (It is not meant to be used for other purposes, though; but there may be other character sets useful for the other purposes.)
05:54:38 <imode> I don't know your terminal character coding.
05:54:41 <\oren\> I have it on my todo list to add all the missing ones in hthe PUA in my font
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05:57:11 <zzo38> This is so far: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce Some stuff may be changed if needed
05:57:42 <zzo38> Some of these characters are also in Unicode but also many isn't.
05:58:20 <zzo38> (And in some cases, it does correspond to a Unicode character but the width may differ or the way different characters are distinguished may differ from Unicode.)
06:00:03 <\oren\> yeah width is really messy in unicode and one of the goals of my font is to be the only large font that actually has correct width as defined in Unicode Standard Annex #11 East Asian Width
06:00:56 <\oren\> becuase no other font maker seems to care, and in particular, GNU unifont has wide devanagari which is stupid
06:01:44 <\oren\> GNU unifont totally ignores the fact that nearly all terminals use the annex #11 for width data
06:03:02 <zzo38> I think what I did is better though.
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06:04:11 <zzo38> (I also think that each program should do one thing well, which is the UNIX philosophy; in this case though it is the character set/coding rather than a program, but still that is what it is. This one does specifically terminal character coding. For other purposes, use something else.)
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06:06:04 <\oren\> the main goal of my font is to display unicode correctly and more-or-less biguously in a terminal
06:06:49 <zzo38> O, OK. Well, then you have it good for that. But I think that Unicode is the wrong character set for this purpose.
06:07:19 <zzo38> Also, the word "biguously" is not in Wiktionary (nor is "biguous").
06:10:36 <\oren\> I use biguous because unambiguous seems like a double negative
06:16:16 <zzo38> OK
06:34:24 <kingoffrance> well, that makes my charset madness sound less insane, so good work zzo38 i agree
06:34:50 <kingoffrance> re: UNIX philosophy
07:11:28 <zzo38> Ghostscript includes a file viewjpeg.ps to print a JPEG file. In the comments where it says the author's address, I found a quine in PostScript.
07:14:06 <zzo38> (Also, it doesn't take the JPEG file name as a command line argument, even though Ghostscripts supports that. It is easily enough to fix it so that it does, though.)
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07:52:18 <esowiki> [[Backhand]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68697&oldid=68472 * Jo King * (+141) added links to interpreter
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08:07:54 <ArthurStrong> Hi all
08:22:06 <zzo38> Hello
08:29:39 <ArthurStrong> zzo38:
08:29:48 <ArthurStrong> Interestingly, can simulated annealing be used for PCB routing?
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08:35:03 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know.
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10:33:05 <int-e> http://apt.cs.manchester.ac.uk/projects/tools/mucs-pcb/ explicitly mentions simulated annealing.
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10:45:34 <wib_jonas> Lykaina: sometimes this channel talk about esoteric aspects of Magic: the Gathering. In particular, ais523 presented two attempts at proving M:tG Turing complete, in the sense that you can transform any computation to a game that terminates iff the computation terminates.
10:47:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68698&oldid=68512 * JonoCode9374 * (+206) /* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */
10:47:36 <wib_jonas> See https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:StackFlow , there's one attempt to proof based on the StackFlow language, which has a bug that we couldn't fix;
10:48:07 <wib_jonas> then there's a later attempt of proof based on a simpler computation model, The Waterfall Model, where the problem hinges on compiling universal computation to a small enough Waterfall Model program
10:51:02 <wib_jonas> This latter one is believed to prove at least Turing completeness, and ais523 details it in an article linked from there.
10:52:00 <wib_jonas> I wonder if you can get more than Turing completeness if you take the rules for breaking infinite loops literally.
10:55:11 <int-e> wtf. '721.1a The rules for taking shortcuts are largely informal. As long as each player in the game understands the intent of each other player, any shortcut system they use is acceptable.'
10:55:59 <int-e> That gives you a lot of leeway when it comes to TC-ness... by choosing sufficiently well-informed players.
10:57:10 <int-e> Oh. 712.1c says tournaments are different :/
10:57:27 <wib_jonas> Actually the article is based on a different construction
10:57:35 <wib_jonas> one that doesn't use Hungary Lynx and Noxious Ghoul
11:04:22 <int-e> The tournament version of shortcuts is sufficiently fun.
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11:18:07 <int-e> Ah, spoilsports: "Non-deterministic loops (loops that rely on decision trees, probability or mathematical convergence) may not be shortcut."
11:34:04 <kspalaiologos> I (possibly) made a Malbolge interpreter in Malbolge
11:35:26 <kspalaiologos> gah
11:35:30 <kspalaiologos> 10GB of ram eatenm
11:35:43 <kspalaiologos> and it was swapping
11:45:16 <kspalaiologos> is there any busy beaver competition?
11:46:15 <Taneb> As in, to find ever-busier beavers?
11:46:18 <Taneb> Not to my knowlege
11:48:20 <kspalaiologos> yep
11:48:25 <kspalaiologos> because I've got a nice one
11:48:35 <kspalaiologos> that requires more gigabytes of memory than there are atoms in universe
11:48:45 <kspalaiologos> and I *know* it will finish, eventually
11:49:15 <Taneb> How many states?
11:51:15 <kspalaiologos> it's hard to tell
11:51:28 <kspalaiologos> really
11:51:36 <kspalaiologos> the program is around 40MB big
11:52:09 <Taneb> Then that's not very interesting
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12:17:57 <int-e> http://www.logique.jussieu.fr/~michel/bbc.html has some pertinent numbers
12:22:26 <Taneb> It looks like you can require more memory than there are atms in the universe with 2 symbols and 7 states
12:25:06 <int-e> Or 6 states, unless you compress the tape (assuming the tape is compressible... which seems likely since we do have a termination proof)
12:27:26 <int-e> (going by the 10^78 to 10^82 estimate for the number of atoms in the universe, with a very generous margin for error.)
12:29:46 <int-e> Of course the tape is very compressible if you accept a description of the form "tape after executing the TM M for n steps, starting from an empty tape".
13:04:25 <kspalaiologos> interesting
13:16:26 <kspalaiologos> << In Haskell, we don't talk about immutability. We talk about cytoendohygrobimorphisms in the category of endobiditricomanifolds and other elementary constructs. >>
13:16:37 <kspalaiologos> /r/shittyprogramming gold
13:17:35 <wib_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/wisdom/zygo*
13:17:35 <HackEso> A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor.
13:18:16 <kspalaiologos> wha
13:18:32 <kspalaiologos> ``` ls /hackenv/wisdom/zygo*
13:18:33 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/wisdom/zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
13:18:47 <kspalaiologos> interesting
13:18:54 <kspalaiologos> what is a monad anyway
13:19:17 <kspalaiologos> the definition in our Polish wiki used to look like verses summoning satan
13:19:17 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: https://wiki.haskell.org/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms
13:19:32 <kspalaiologos> gosh it really exists
13:20:23 <wib_jonas> Unfortunately, no one can explain what a monad is. You have to see it for yourself.
13:21:09 <kspalaiologos> can one make a monad in C?
13:21:18 <kspalaiologos> or other language I'm at least barely familliar with
13:22:00 <int-e> kspalaiologos: https://willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html seems somewhat relevant.
13:22:25 <wib_jonas> ^ ah yes, that too
13:22:56 <wib_jonas> I have my own factorial definition at http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs
13:22:57 <kspalaiologos> interesting
13:23:01 <kspalaiologos> I like scheme
13:26:24 <int-e> Monads in C... I suppose you can come up with some programming patterns, in a similar spirit as OO in C. But I wouldn't expect any benefit from going that route, just obfuscation.
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13:27:09 <kspalaiologos> OO
13:27:12 <kspalaiologos> who would like OO
13:27:24 <kspalaiologos> all you need is procedural programming
13:27:40 <int-e> OO gives you associated namespaces for your types.
13:27:43 <int-e> I like that.
13:27:54 <kspalaiologos> the main principle of OO is encapsulation
13:28:13 <kspalaiologos> so you don't have a global state, but rather it's simplified down to object instances
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13:28:43 <int-e> ("OO gives you namespaces for types" of course is the one benefit that you lose instantly when encoding it in C)
13:29:07 <kspalaiologos> if two objects instances mutate (send a message) to certain single object, you lose the benefit of encapsulation
13:29:21 <kspalaiologos> and there is something that resembles the state
13:29:32 <kspalaiologos> Namespace for types?
13:29:39 <int-e> I really liked OO for MUD programming.
13:30:04 <kspalaiologos> alright?
13:30:17 <kspalaiologos> I thought about extending C a bit
13:30:20 <int-e> So you have monsters as objects, players as objects, things you carry around as objects, rooms as objects... it's mostly very tangible.
13:30:27 <kspalaiologos> yeah
13:30:33 <kspalaiologos> but you could do this in C
13:30:43 <kspalaiologos> look at linux source code and how the drivers are implemented
13:30:51 <int-e> "you can do this in C" is not a valid argument
13:31:18 <kspalaiologos> it would be as comfortable when done procedurally as the example you're giving
13:31:35 <int-e> It's basically a tautology. (You can program it in C, or you can't program it at all.)
13:33:22 <int-e> I'm quite happy with the fragment of C++ that has structs and classes, no inheritance, and a small amount of templates. I prefer it to doing the same thing in C because of the namespace thing, and well, because templates offer some amount of code generation when you need it.
13:34:12 <int-e> (Oh and exceptions see the occasional use as well... as non-local returns.)
13:44:14 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, but with or without implicitly called user-defined destructors (and implicitly called copy/move constructors/initializers)? because that is, I think, what most clearly distinguishes C++ from C.
13:45:38 <kspalaiologos> one could employ boehm GC
13:45:41 <int-e> wib_jonas: I really try to stick to pod-types.
13:45:45 <kspalaiologos> all your low level stuff is gone
13:51:34 <int-e> kspalaiologos: I do use Haskell too. :P
13:52:02 <kspalaiologos> any ideas on brainfuck <=> SQLite interop?
13:52:09 <kspalaiologos> especially the callbacks
13:52:12 <kspalaiologos> how to get over 'em
13:52:54 <int-e> I'll go out on a limb and say I have better things to think about.
13:53:31 <kspalaiologos> it's already an amazing thing to think about
13:53:44 <kspalaiologos> also, as you use haskell you're probably experienced in CS theory
13:54:03 <kspalaiologos> would you tell me how the f*ck can 3-celled brainfuck be Turing complete
13:54:07 <int-e> I mean I admire your efforts to deprive "Brainfuck" of its esolang status, but I don't want to be part of it.
13:54:16 <kspalaiologos> I know about collatz function
13:54:21 <kspalaiologos> and I know it proves turing completness
13:54:34 <kspalaiologos> but it makes no sense to me that you can for example do modulus operation on it
13:54:35 <fizzie> There was that one brainfuck system call library thingamajick, what was it called? Wasn't really anything very surprising, though -- just a specific protocol for the input/output instructions.
13:54:36 <kritixilithos> kspalaiologos: oh you're extending bf and making it a proper language?
13:54:43 <int-e> kspalaiologos: Just work through oerjan's construction.
13:54:55 <int-e> It's only slightly tricky!!!1
13:55:06 <kspalaiologos> kritixilithos, wiring up SQLite to write an URL shortener in brainfuck
13:55:19 <kspalaiologos> int-e, I mean, possibly
13:55:21 <kritixilithos> what have you added so far?
13:55:33 <kspalaiologos> interop between brainfuck and sqlite
13:55:41 <kspalaiologos> currently you can just INSERT to the database
13:55:50 <kspalaiologos> SELECT is being worked on because I can't get over the callback mechanism
13:56:32 <kspalaiologos> I thought that if I had 3 bignum cells and a brainfuck like language
13:56:40 <kspalaiologos> to prove it's turing complete I'd simulate a stack machine
13:56:47 <kspalaiologos> that has two stacks and in result is turing complete
13:56:52 <kspalaiologos> so the proof is more practical
13:57:20 <kspalaiologos> to push something on a stack I'd just *= 255 & += n;
13:57:27 <kspalaiologos> but to pop something out of the stack I need modulus
13:57:40 <fizzie> There was https://esolangs.org/wiki/Systemf but that's not the one I was thinking of, it was more abstract and didn't introduce any new commands.
13:57:59 <kspalaiologos> there was ESOAPI for ESOOS
13:58:04 <kspalaiologos> but it's garbage for userland programming
13:58:12 <kspalaiologos> that used something along ANSI escapes but better
13:58:37 <int-e> kspalaiologos: pushing isn't the problem... popping is.
13:58:41 <fizzie> Right, and https://esolangs.org/wiki/PESOIX
13:58:42 <kspalaiologos> sure
13:58:51 <kspalaiologos> thats what I just said
13:58:52 <int-e> You'd need a division by a constant with remainder using only two cells.
13:58:57 <kspalaiologos> yes
13:59:07 <int-e> The fun thing about Collatz machines is that you get 3 cells for that task, effectively.
13:59:17 <int-e> s/machines/functions/
13:59:49 <kspalaiologos> but it would be possible to translate 3-cell brainfuck to 2-register MM
14:00:04 <int-e> Not necessarily.
14:00:10 <kspalaiologos> why
14:00:24 <kspalaiologos> 2-register MM is turing complete
14:00:32 <kspalaiologos> it should be able to simulate any turing machine
14:00:43 <int-e> Fair enough.
14:00:54 <int-e> However then it won't be complexity preserving.
14:01:01 <kspalaiologos> yeah
14:01:07 <kspalaiologos> and the translation process may never finish
14:01:20 <int-e> A direcy, complexity preserving translation will almost certainly need 3 cells.
14:01:23 <int-e> *direct
14:01:26 <int-e> s/cells/counters/
14:01:33 <kspalaiologos> or yeah
14:01:46 <kspalaiologos> nut the thing that bothers me the most in this case are unbalanced loops
14:02:16 <kspalaiologos> because one can't refer to variable register using MM
14:02:27 <int-e> Because a 3-cell Brainfuck program can divide a counter that is known to be even by 2 in two cells, while keeping another counter around. A Minsky machine cannot divide a counter in place.
14:02:51 <int-e> The reference to a variable register isn't a problem... just make the tape position part of the MM state.
14:03:01 <kspalaiologos> ?
14:03:03 <kspalaiologos> how
14:03:21 <kspalaiologos> we can have just two registers, adding another variable to the state makes it very cheaty
14:03:25 <arseniiv> hi hi hi
14:03:39 <int-e> Make the MM state a pair of program position (in the brainfuck program) and current tape position (0,1,2)
14:04:11 <kspalaiologos> in the runtime the state is constant?
14:04:12 <int-e> That way a 3-cell Brainfuck program of length l becomes a MM with 3 registers and 3*l states.
14:04:20 <kspalaiologos> no no no
14:04:24 <kspalaiologos> I'm not interested in 3 registers
14:04:26 <kspalaiologos> I want 2
14:04:33 <int-e> And that preserves complexity.
14:04:43 <int-e> *I*'m interested in preserving complexity here.
14:04:43 <kspalaiologos> complexity doesn't bother me
14:04:51 <kspalaiologos> well
14:05:08 <int-e> You can do the usual m to 2 counters reduction afterwards.
14:05:23 <int-e> At an exponential cost in runtime.
14:05:44 <kspalaiologos> how
14:05:45 <kspalaiologos> can I do that
14:07:46 <int-e> You encode counters a,b,...,z as 2^a 3^b ... 101^z. You can do division with remainder using one more counter... so you can check whether any of the original registers is 0 (--> not divisible by the corresponding prime), and increment and decrement counters as well.
14:08:02 <int-e> (did you know that 101 is the 26th prime...)
14:08:27 <kspalaiologos> umm, not
14:08:32 <kspalaiologos> *no
14:08:45 <kspalaiologos> but I still don't understand it
14:09:42 <int-e> increment b --> multiply the counter by 3. decrement b -> divide the counter by 3; if the remainder is 0, the decrement succeeds. Otherwise multiply by 3 and add the remainder back, and branch somewhere else.
14:10:33 <int-e> (You can keep track of the remainder in the finite state of the Minsky machine, and of the quotient in the other counter.)
14:11:00 <kspalaiologos> well
14:11:00 <kspalaiologos> yes
14:11:17 <kspalaiologos> but you need modulus
14:11:29 <kspalaiologos> and there is NO way to implement it on a 2 register MM
14:11:30 <int-e> that's what I just called remainder.
14:11:38 <kspalaiologos> yes
14:11:40 <kspalaiologos> I do realise
14:11:44 <int-e> You're wrong.
14:11:58 <kspalaiologos> how to do this
14:11:59 <int-e> You just need many states.
14:12:09 <int-e> Meh.
14:14:12 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1124843/
14:14:48 <int-e> It's important that we only ever divide by known constants.
14:16:46 <kspalaiologos> interesting
14:25:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mister14 * New user account
14:29:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68699&oldid=68693 * Mister14 * (+245) /* Introductions */
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15:02:41 <wib_jonas> [ (^~,!)5
15:02:42 <j-bot> wib_jonas: 3125 120
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15:30:53 <Taneb> I should try to learn J again
15:32:24 <kspalaiologos> https://www.jsoftware.com/help/learning/contents.htm
15:32:28 <Taneb> Never quite got the hooks and stuff last time
15:32:29 <kspalaiologos> I'll probably read this one
15:33:49 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cimport math; v = 5; print(v**v, math.factorial(v))
15:33:50 <HackEso> 3125 120
15:35:19 <kspalaiologos> a ha!
15:35:22 <kspalaiologos> I understand that J code above
15:35:38 <kspalaiologos> but not quite the tilde
15:36:26 <Taneb> [ ^~ 0 1 2 3 4 5
15:36:27 <j-bot> Taneb: 1 1 4 27 256 3125
15:36:49 <Taneb> ^~ is a monad (in the J sense, not the Haskell sense) which computes x^x
15:37:24 <kspalaiologos> << The symbol for division is % (percent). >>
15:37:25 <kspalaiologos> gosh why
15:37:42 <kspalaiologos> every single language uses slash for division
15:37:50 <kritixilithos> it looks closer to the apl ÷
15:38:09 <kspalaiologos> it has to be a joke
15:38:19 <kspalaiologos> also, why is - turned into a floor (_)?
15:38:30 <kritixilithos> `/` is used instead for reduce (and other stuff)
15:38:31 <HackEso> ​/`? No such file or directory
15:38:41 <wib_jonas> division should not get a precious single character symbol in any language, it's such a rare operation, it should just get named functions
15:38:43 <kspalaiologos> interestinb
15:39:54 <kritixilithos> kspalaiologos: because `-` is a function that can also be monadic, in which case it negates the right argument
15:40:00 <FireFly> kspalaiologos: - is used for subtraction and unary negation, but _ is used in a negative number literal
15:40:12 <kspalaiologos> so
15:40:14 <kspalaiologos> [ _2
15:40:15 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _2
15:40:18 <kspalaiologos> well
15:40:23 <kritixilithos> look into apl if you don't like j's symbols
15:40:24 <kspalaiologos> it makes a tiny bit of sense
15:40:41 <kspalaiologos> what does it mean that it's monadsic
15:40:43 <kspalaiologos> *monadic
15:40:43 <wib_jonas> > let { f x = 10 * x; } in fmap f (3, 6, -2)
15:40:46 <lambdabot> error:
15:40:46 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Functor ((,,) Integer Integer))
15:40:46 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘e_110362’
15:40:46 <FireFly> unary
15:40:49 <wib_jonas> > let { f x = 10 * x; } in fmap f (3, 6)
15:40:51 <lambdabot> (3,60)
15:40:56 <wib_jonas> ^ this is why
15:41:16 <wib_jonas> and it's also why standard ML uses a different character for unary negation, though their specific choice is objectionable
15:41:24 <FireFly> I think most languages only let you express positive number literals, and simply have you apply negation on a positive literal
15:41:34 <kspalaiologos> yup
15:41:35 <kspalaiologos> that's right
15:41:36 <FireFly> [ -5
15:41:36 <j-bot> FireFly: _5
15:41:49 <kritixilithos> [ -2 3
15:41:50 <kspalaiologos> [ * 2 3
15:41:50 <j-bot> kritixilithos: _2 _3
15:41:50 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 1 1
15:41:53 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cprint([10 * x for x in [3, 6, -2])
15:41:53 <HackEso> ​ File "<string>", line 1 \ print([10 * x for x in [3, 6, -2]) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
15:41:54 <kspalaiologos> [ *: 2 3
15:41:55 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 4 9
15:41:58 <kritixilithos> [ _2 3
15:41:59 <j-bot> kritixilithos: _2 3
15:42:00 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cprint([10 * x for x in [3, 6, -2]])
15:42:01 <HackEso> ​[30, 60, -20]
15:42:05 <kspalaiologos> it treats a single star like an empty variable?
15:42:06 <kspalaiologos> or what
15:42:11 <FireFly> what?
15:42:14 <kspalaiologos> (single -> without a colon)
15:42:16 <FireFly> no, *: is square
15:42:20 <kritixilithos> https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm
15:42:37 <FireFly> I don't know what "treats like an empty variable" would mean here
15:42:48 <kritixilithos> it also is a function
15:42:50 <kspalaiologos> a ha
15:42:55 <kspalaiologos> so it returns the sign
15:43:01 <kspalaiologos> [ * _2
15:43:02 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1
15:43:04 <kspalaiologos> [ * 2
15:43:05 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 1
15:43:06 <kspalaiologos> [ * -
15:43:07 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: * -
15:43:15 <kspalaiologos> interesting
15:43:21 <kspalaiologos> I see some obfuscation potential
15:43:27 <kritixilithos> [ (* -) 10
15:43:28 <j-bot> kritixilithos: _100
15:43:30 <wib_jonas> [ * 2j1
15:43:31 <j-bot> wib_jonas: 0.894427j0.447214
15:43:39 <kspalaiologos> what does j do
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15:43:45 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> every single language uses slash for division => Haskell uses / for division but also % to construct rationals from integer, e. g. 2 % 3 for the number 2/3, and they are stringified accordingly, though you can also write (2 :: Rational) / 3
15:43:48 <kspalaiologos> ah
15:43:53 <kspalaiologos> its imaginary/complex
15:43:53 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: a complex number literal
15:44:03 <arseniiv> > (2 :: Rational) / 3
15:44:05 <lambdabot> 2 % 3
15:44:27 <kspalaiologos> I'm an idiot when it comes to FP, I didn't use any FP language really
15:44:47 <kspalaiologos> but I spent a fair amount of time on low level programming
15:44:52 <arseniiv> this doesn’t change that J is a write-only esolang
15:44:54 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cprint(2+1j)
15:44:55 <HackEso> ​(2+1j)
15:44:56 <kspalaiologos> I wanted to learn FP but it seems too weird
15:44:59 <FireFly> what does 'low level' mean in this context?
15:45:01 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cprint(abs(2+1j))
15:45:02 <HackEso> 2.23606797749979
15:45:07 <wib_jonas> what
15:45:12 <kspalaiologos> FireFly, I've been writing kernels
15:45:13 <wib_jonas> oh, I want the sign
15:45:34 <kspalaiologos> I managed to write a simple java powered kernel lately
15:45:59 <kspalaiologos> it's based around stupid implementation of SE 1.5
15:45:59 <kritixilithos> "this doesn’t change that J is a write-only esolang" apl OTOH isn't write-only, because the glyphs are easier to read
15:46:11 <kspalaiologos> but hard to write
15:46:12 <kspalaiologos> so it'
15:46:14 <kspalaiologos> s read only
15:46:34 <kritixilithos> no, get an apl keybaord layout and it becomes easy to write
15:46:38 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cv = 2+1j; print(v / abs(v))
15:46:38 <HackEso> ​(0.8944271909999159+0.4472135954999579j)
15:46:51 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: equational FP languages (like Haskell or my F-turned thing) are more readable than J, I assure you
15:46:58 <kspalaiologos> can't they use I instead of J to signify irrational unit?
15:47:07 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> s read only => rofl :D
15:47:31 <kspalaiologos> possibly
15:47:41 <kspalaiologos> I tried to get a taste of Elixir but currently it's 0-1 for me
15:48:30 <kspalaiologos> going so hard after the state seems peculiar to me
15:48:52 <kritixilithos> what about lisp
15:49:09 <kspalaiologos> I'll talk about lisp-likes: Used them, liked them
15:49:25 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cv = complex(2,1); s = v / abs(v); print("%f+%fI" % (s.real, s.imag)) # kspalaiologos: there, it uses I
15:49:26 <HackEso> 0.894427+0.447214I
15:49:53 <kspalaiologos> but my constrained mind seems to take lisp easier than languages camouflaging to be something really useful
15:50:24 <arseniiv> any lisp?
15:50:34 <arseniiv> your lisp may vary :D
15:50:42 <kspalaiologos> CL for me please
15:51:09 <arseniiv> bet Clojure, Racket, Scheme and CL have a ton of differences between each other
15:51:34 <arseniiv> ah, CL is secretly an imperative language if that tag is still useful
15:51:36 <kspalaiologos> JVM garbage
15:51:45 <arseniiv> from what I’ve seen
15:51:46 <kspalaiologos> is the difference in some cases
15:51:59 <kspalaiologos> I'm just an ordinary procedural programming fan
15:52:21 <kspalaiologos> willing to run a startup using Algol 68
15:54:12 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: how about using fortran 2019?
15:54:44 <kspalaiologos> Have you seen Cobol on Wheelchair (or Cogs)?
15:55:09 <kspalaiologos> /* it was Wheelchair: https://github.com/azac/cobol-on-wheelchair */
15:55:29 <kspalaiologos> it's actively developed (since I looked at it last time)
15:55:39 <arseniiv> :o
15:56:06 <kspalaiologos> "(c) <DATE OVERFLOW>" love it
15:56:13 <arseniiv> anyway I often like a clean piece of imperative code
15:56:52 <kspalaiologos> look on this clean piece of imperative code: https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/blob/master/bfasm.c
15:57:13 <arseniiv> but this is C!
15:57:23 <kspalaiologos> it's beautiful nonetheless
15:57:36 <kspalaiologos> and in fact
15:57:39 <kspalaiologos> it's very imperative
15:57:45 <arseniiv> and the piece is too long and is for an orchestra I think
15:58:05 <kspalaiologos> the only state is global
15:58:16 <kspalaiologos> and it's 2000 element int array
15:58:29 <kspalaiologos> gosh, 2k10 me was a stupid person
15:58:33 <arseniiv> risky, risky
15:58:34 <kspalaiologos> why didn't I rewrite it sooner
15:58:44 <kspalaiologos> why didn't I rewrite it to this day
15:59:04 <arseniiv> I often think that about myself too
15:59:10 <kspalaiologos> everyone does
15:59:40 <wib_jonas> my very old code has assignments with no space before the equals sign, only after. it's horrible.
16:00:01 <kspalaiologos> I've seen code that has spaces before and after every paren
16:00:02 <kspalaiologos> going like
16:00:16 <kspalaiologos> while ( ( c = getchar () ) != EOF )
16:00:20 <wib_jonas> yeah
16:00:27 <wib_jonas> hey, that doesn't have space before and after every paren
16:00:41 <kspalaiologos> ()
16:00:55 <arseniiv> once I thought that the language should have a rational implicit conversion for any occasion, between any two types, and a special syntax (instead of plain method/function names) for most operations on standard types
16:00:58 <kspalaiologos> didn't copy it, because the code is long lost
16:01:17 <wib_jonas> oh yeah, my old code has space between the function name and the call parenthesis too. also horrible
16:01:37 <arseniiv> agree
16:01:51 <arseniiv> I almost never wrote like that at least
16:02:34 <arseniiv> maybe because I almost started with VB6 where the IDE formats your line as you leave it
16:02:34 <kspalaiologos> http://prntscr.com/qk1xun
16:02:46 <kspalaiologos> this is horrible too
16:02:53 <kspalaiologos> taken out of NT kernel's inet driver
16:02:56 <kspalaiologos> in the original form
16:03:54 <kspalaiologos> return( Err );
16:03:56 <kspalaiologos> and brackets around return
16:04:02 <kspalaiologos> it's the final boss of garbage code
16:07:40 <kspalaiologos> [ 5 * 4 + 3
16:07:41 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 35
16:07:59 <kspalaiologos> are the expressions evaluated right to left, really?
16:08:05 <kspalaiologos> without caring about operator precendence?
16:08:20 <kspalaiologos> interesting
16:08:52 <FireFly> well, the operator precedence is "all verbs are equal precedence", and verb evaluation is right to left, yes
16:09:21 <FireFly> Iverson explained quite clearly why in one of his old papers on APL, I think it was in notation as a tool for thought
16:09:38 <FireFly> https://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm
16:10:19 <FireFly> in general, APL was developed as an alternate maths notation originally, designed to be more consistent than the conventional notation
16:10:37 <FireFly> it also amongst other things introduced the notation for floor and ceiling that we use today
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16:11:38 <kspalaiologos> interesting
16:12:26 <kspalaiologos> "A function taking a single argument on the right is called a monadic function, or a monad for short. "
16:12:38 <kspalaiologos> so monad is just an unary function?
16:13:06 <kspalaiologos> that's the real meaning of this buzzword which definition feels like reading Malbolge?
16:13:56 <kspalaiologos> [ % 4
16:13:57 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 0.25
16:14:00 <kspalaiologos> this is cool though
16:14:09 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: no, Haskell monads are the other sort :)
16:14:29 <kspalaiologos> so monad's definition varies by language?
16:14:46 <FireFly> kspalaiologos: compare "variadic", or the use of "monad", "dyad" in music
16:14:51 <fizzie> The definitive definition is whatever's in our wisdom, of course.
16:14:52 <fizzie> `? monad
16:14:53 <FireFly> (yes, it refers to the number of arguments)
16:14:54 <HackEso> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
16:14:56 <fizzie> `? endofunctor
16:14:58 <HackEso> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
16:15:00 <FireFly> see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arity#Terminology
16:15:02 <fizzie> `? endomorphism
16:15:05 <HackEso> Endomorphisms are just final morphisms.
16:15:08 <fizzie> `? morphism
16:15:09 <HackEso> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1.
16:15:13 <fizzie> See, so useful.
16:15:21 <Taneb> `? final
16:15:23 <HackEso> ​"final" is an annotation in Java; it means the marked code will not be changed anymore and is a final version.
16:15:40 <fizzie> You have to pick words quite carefully to stay in the same domain of things.
16:15:42 <fizzie> `? category
16:15:43 <HackEso> A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes.
16:15:56 <Taneb> `? class
16:15:58 <HackEso> class? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:16:15 <FireFly> a lot of J's terminology is borrowed from linguistics, I'm not sure if the use of monadic/dyadic (which also existed back in APL) are derived from the musical terms..
16:16:18 <arseniiv> so monad's definition varies by language? => I think these times “monadic” is far more often about category theory monads, not arity-one functions
16:16:26 <kspalaiologos> > Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. <
16:16:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:25: error: parse error on input ‘in’
16:16:31 <kspalaiologos> thats like the wikipedia article looked like
16:16:35 <kspalaiologos> I swear it was this
16:16:37 <fizzie> `? kittegory
16:16:38 <HackEso> A kittegory is just a small category.
16:16:39 <kmc> yes, sometimes "monadic" just means "1-adic"
16:16:48 <kmc> or arity 1
16:16:54 <kmc> oh it also has a meaning in philosophy
16:17:02 <kmc> from kant i think
16:17:19 <arseniiv> <HackEso> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1. => rofl
16:17:20 <int-e> . o O ( Classes were a concept in pre-anonymous internet that have since been replaced by finely meshed masks. )
16:18:15 <arseniiv> <kmc> from kant i think => wasn’t it Leibnitz?
16:18:31 <arseniiv> though they could be both making their own monads
16:18:42 <arseniiv> too many monads
16:18:59 <kspalaiologos> [ * + 4 3 2
16:19:00 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 1 1 1
16:19:12 <kspalaiologos> [ + / 2 3 4
16:19:13 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 9
16:19:18 <kspalaiologos> what the heck
16:19:18 <kspalaiologos> why
16:19:28 <FireFly> Hm?
16:19:29 <Taneb> What were you expecting?
16:19:44 <kspalaiologos> I just switched operators
16:19:46 <FireFly> in +/ 2 3 4 you have the adverb / modifying the verb + to produce "sum"
16:19:50 <kspalaiologos> its the same mathematical operation
16:19:53 <Taneb> op / x y z is equalivalent to x op y op z
16:19:56 <kspalaiologos> Ah I thought / is division
16:20:07 <kspalaiologos> I can't switch my mind to %
16:20:18 <arseniiv> [ % 0 0
16:20:19 <j-bot> arseniiv: _ _
16:20:24 <arseniiv> [ % 0 1
16:20:25 <j-bot> arseniiv: _ 1
16:20:27 <kspalaiologos> interesting
16:20:29 <arseniiv> [ % 1 0
16:20:30 <j-bot> arseniiv: 1 _
16:20:32 <arseniiv> hm
16:20:38 <kspalaiologos> [ % 1 1
16:20:38 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 1 1
16:20:43 <arseniiv> I don’t comprehend
16:20:44 <kspalaiologos> no no no
16:20:47 <kspalaiologos> you need to place it like
16:20:50 <kspalaiologos> [ 0 % 0
16:20:51 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 0
16:20:55 <kspalaiologos> there we go
16:21:00 <FireFly> arseniiv: unary % is reciprocal, so you're taking reciprocal of 0 or 1
16:21:04 <arseniiv> what, 0 / 0 = 0?..
16:21:08 <kspalaiologos> yes
16:21:10 <kspalaiologos> it's logical
16:21:22 <Taneb> It's just as true as any other answer you can give
16:21:27 * arseniiv cries in horror
16:21:35 * FireFly pats arseniiv
16:21:42 <kspalaiologos> A ha
16:21:44 <arseniiv> ah wait I thought about 0^0 maybe
16:21:46 <kspalaiologos> wait
16:21:50 <kspalaiologos> _ is Infinity
16:21:54 <Taneb> ] 0 ^ 0
16:21:56 <arseniiv> [ 2 ^ 3
16:21:57 <j-bot> arseniiv: 8
16:22:04 <arseniiv> [ 0 ^ 0
16:22:04 <j-bot> arseniiv: 1
16:22:09 <kspalaiologos> wait
16:22:09 <int-e> arseniiv: a/0 is a sane choice *if* you have to make / total.
16:22:11 <kspalaiologos> what was ^ for
16:22:19 <FireFly> expotential
16:22:21 <int-e> arseniiv: a/0 = 0 I mean.
16:22:23 <FireFly> or well, power
16:22:25 <kspalaiologos> so ^ == *:?
16:22:29 <int-e> 0^0 is 1 of course.
16:22:30 <FireFly> no, *: is square
16:22:34 <kspalaiologos> ah ok
16:22:36 <FireFly> *: is the same as ^&2
16:22:39 <FireFly> I suppose
16:22:41 <FireFly> at least for reals
16:22:57 <arseniiv> 1 => phew [I was trying to remember how’s that word written]
16:23:46 <kspalaiologos> / means reduce?
16:23:54 <arseniiv> int-e: maybe, but why not 1 for example. / is related to multiplication, 1 is too. 0 is less related
16:24:11 <FireFly> kspalaiologos: pretty much
16:25:07 <kspalaiologos> I think we should continue working on EsoOS
16:25:14 <int-e> arseniiv: Picking 0 makes (a+b)/c = a/c + b/c and (ab)/c = a(b/c) true unconditionally. So... the choice is pragmatic.
16:25:14 <kspalaiologos> and feature J as one of languages available there
16:25:57 <kspalaiologos> why does NB. denote a comment
16:26:06 <kspalaiologos> what's the acronym behind it
16:26:11 <FireFly> nota bene
16:26:15 <kspalaiologos> ah!
16:26:16 <arseniiv> int-e: is it because 0 is absorbing with regard to × just like ∞
16:26:24 <FireFly> it's been a sort of comment marker for 300 years
16:26:34 <int-e> arseniiv: People do not agree on this universally, of course. (There are some vocal people who think that x/0 should be left as unspecified as possible... it has a value, but you don't know what it is. But then you'll still have theorems like x/0 - x/0 = 0 that will annoy the purists that you were trying to please...)
16:26:54 <kspalaiologos> FireFly, yeah
16:26:56 <kspalaiologos> you're right
16:27:00 <kspalaiologos> I used to learn a tiny bit of Latin
16:27:13 <int-e> arseniiv: So given the choice between not satisfying the purists, and a little more convenience in proving things, I'd pick convenience every time out of 10 :)
16:27:13 <arseniiv> I like to imagine 0 in context of nonnegative integers or rationals as 2^∞ 3^∞ 5^∞ 7^∞ …
16:27:48 <kspalaiologos> [ >. 1
16:27:48 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 1
16:27:48 <Taneb> [ 2 (*+*) 3
16:27:49 <j-bot> Taneb: 12
16:27:53 <kspalaiologos> [ >. 21.37
16:27:54 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 22
16:27:59 <kspalaiologos> [ +\
16:28:00 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: +\
16:28:01 <kspalaiologos> [ +
16:28:02 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: +
16:28:13 <arseniiv> int-e: But then you'll still have theorems like x/0 - x/0 = 0 that will annoy the purists that you were trying to please... => yeah, I’ll be annoyed for sure
16:28:23 <int-e> arseniiv: Of course, in the end you still get plenty of theorems that divide by some d and require that d != 0.
16:28:25 <kspalaiologos> this was a great opportunity to make some brainfuck code
16:28:32 <arseniiv> [ ∞
16:28:33 <j-bot> arseniiv: |spelling error
16:28:33 <j-bot> arseniiv: | ∞
16:28:33 <j-bot> arseniiv: | ^
16:28:33 <kspalaiologos> [ >.
16:28:34 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: >.
16:28:42 <kspalaiologos> shouldn't 1 be assumed here?
16:28:45 <kspalaiologos> like it is with %?
16:28:47 <kspalaiologos> [ % 10
16:28:48 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 0.1
16:29:07 <FireFly> I'm not sure what you mean
16:29:25 <FireFly> unary % is reciprocal, but in general the unary and binary case of a verb doesn't have to be related
16:29:33 <kspalaiologos> yes
16:29:38 <FireFly> unary >. is ceiling, binary >. is maximum I believe
16:29:42 <kspalaiologos> ah, so there is actually a monad
16:29:49 <kspalaiologos> for %
16:29:52 <FireFly> yes
16:29:53 <kspalaiologos> right
16:29:58 <FireFly> it's all in the vocabulary
16:30:02 <wib_jonas> dear webpage of manufacturer, if I want to download the manual for your device, I'd like to tell you which device it is first and then choose from the languages in which a manual is available, rather than choose a language first then search for devices with a manual in that language. thank yuo.
16:30:07 <FireFly> https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm is quite handy
16:30:09 <arseniiv> btw one great thing about lisps is that their + − × / are often variadic
16:30:23 <kspalaiologos> yep
16:30:41 <kspalaiologos> otherwise you'd need to reduce
16:30:46 <kspalaiologos> not a great deal but saves time
16:31:12 <arseniiv> though now I seem to think (− 1 2 3) should be treated as (1 + 2) − 3 as we drop a left operand when writing (− 2)
16:32:00 <Taneb> That gives _1 _2 _3, right?
16:32:42 <kspalaiologos> [ - 1 2 3
16:32:42 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3
16:32:45 <kspalaiologos> ye
16:32:53 -!- imode has joined.
16:32:55 <kspalaiologos> [ + - 1 2 3
16:32:56 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3
16:33:07 <Taneb> Well, it does in J. In Lisp I don't know
16:33:11 <kspalaiologos> [ - \ 1 2 3
16:33:12 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 0 0
16:33:12 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 0
16:33:12 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3
16:33:16 <kspalaiologos> whoa
16:33:17 <kspalaiologos> wait
16:33:22 <kspalaiologos> why did it print out 3 messages
16:33:24 <Taneb> \ is not /
16:33:28 <FireFly> because you produced a 3x3 array
16:33:29 <kspalaiologos> k
16:33:34 <kspalaiologos> lmao
16:33:40 <arseniiv> J is jarring :P
16:33:54 <Taneb> APL is aplarring?
16:34:03 <arseniiv> (making jars)
16:34:13 <FireFly> it's a handy tool, and moreso I think it's handy to reason about programs in array-programming terms in my head sometimes
16:34:16 <kspalaiologos> wait a second
16:34:18 <arseniiv> hm what would alparring then mean
16:34:22 <kspalaiologos> does this bot have some kind of protection
16:34:25 <FireFly> another tool in the toolbox for reasoning about problems
16:34:27 <kspalaiologos> so it doesn't spam out the chat?
16:34:29 <arseniiv> parring with aluminium?
16:34:45 <arseniiv> [ - - - - 1 2 3
16:34:46 <j-bot> arseniiv: 1 2 3
16:34:51 <arseniiv> whyy
16:35:01 <arseniiv> [ \ \ \ 1 2 3
16:35:01 <j-bot> arseniiv: |syntax error
16:35:01 <j-bot> arseniiv: | \\\1 2 3
16:35:11 <arseniiv> yes it’s quite protected
16:35:12 <FireFly> kspalaiologos: not entirely sure; I'd appreciate if you wouldn't try to get it to quit due to flooding
16:35:27 <kspalaiologos> I'll just check with 6 elements
16:35:29 <arseniiv> oh okay I won’t too
16:35:30 <kspalaiologos> if it prints out then it's flawed
16:35:38 <FireFly> I mean it's limited to three lines at a time
16:35:45 <kspalaiologos> [ - \ 1 2 4
16:35:46 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 0 0
16:35:46 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 0
16:35:46 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _4
16:35:47 <FireFly> but in principle that means you could spam lines and have it be amplified 1:3
16:35:48 <kspalaiologos> [ - \ 1 2 3 4
16:35:49 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 0 0 0
16:35:49 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 0 0
16:35:49 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3 0
16:35:49 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3 _4
16:35:52 <kspalaiologos> well
16:35:53 <FireFly> ok maybe not 3
16:35:55 <FireFly> but some limit :P
16:36:01 <kspalaiologos> I'll try it on pm
16:36:01 <FireFly> [ i.10 10
16:36:02 <j-bot> FireFly: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
16:36:02 <j-bot> FireFly: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
16:36:02 <j-bot> FireFly: 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
16:36:02 <j-bot> FireFly: 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39
16:36:02 <j-bot> FireFly: 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
16:36:02 <j-bot> FireFly: 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59
16:36:02 <j-bot> FireFly: 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69
16:36:03 <j-bot> FireFly: 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79
16:36:03 <j-bot> FireFly: ...
16:36:03 <kspalaiologos> will it kick the bot?
16:36:07 <FireFly> ok that's the limit
16:36:20 <kspalaiologos> what's i.
16:36:34 * FireFly sighs
16:36:37 <kspalaiologos> ah
16:36:39 <kspalaiologos> it's seq
16:36:44 <kspalaiologos> but like
16:36:44 <kspalaiologos> worse
16:36:45 <FireFly> it'd be easiest if you reference the vocabulary for looking up verbs
16:36:55 <kspalaiologos> interesting
16:36:56 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: i. is ι :D
16:36:59 <kspalaiologos> can I make it enumerate alphabet?
16:37:03 <kspalaiologos> or something else?
16:37:22 <FireFly> Well not per se
16:37:28 <kspalaiologos> there aren't really many operators here
16:37:50 <arseniiv> bet I have seen `atoi` in some language, related to ι but don’t remember in what a way
16:38:05 <kspalaiologos> but using this language already feels like driving a truck on thin ice
16:38:07 <FireFly> isn't that just "string to integer"
16:38:13 <kspalaiologos> yep it is
16:38:13 <FireFly> kspalaiologos: how so?
16:38:26 <kspalaiologos> seems illogical to me a bit
16:38:31 <kspalaiologos> but probably because I'm not used to APL
16:38:48 <kspalaiologos> is barely anyone using APL these days?
16:39:20 <FireFly> Not sure, I'm told it's still used a bit in financial stuffs
16:39:24 <FireFly> along with k
16:39:48 <Taneb> Didn't Phantom_Hoover get a job working with K?
16:39:49 <kspalaiologos> K is crazy too
16:40:10 <kspalaiologos> 2_&{&/x!/:2_!x}'!R
16:40:33 <kspalaiologos> FireFly, < K is the foundation for a family of financial products > -> you're right
16:41:15 <FireFly> I think that K is kind of the theoretically beautiful, minimalistic language in the family.. although it's also fairly different from APL and J in terms of how its arrays work
16:41:30 <FireFly> or well, it's more oriented around nested lists (a la lisps) than APL-style rectangular arrays
16:41:40 <FireFly> J is much more "batteries included"
16:42:27 <kspalaiologos> [ average=:+/ %
16:42:27 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: |ok
16:42:37 <kspalaiologos> [ average 4 5
16:42:38 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 4.25 4.2
16:42:38 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: 5.25 5.2
16:42:48 <kspalaiologos> what have I done
16:44:06 * FireFly thinks
16:44:09 <int-e> beating the averages
16:44:44 <FireFly> created a hook that uh.. creates a table of the original input and the reciprocal?
16:44:46 <FireFly> I guess
16:44:53 <FireFly> I think you meant +/ % #
16:45:00 <int-e> Ah.
16:45:01 <FireFly> (a fork that divides the sum by the length)
16:45:15 <int-e> > [1/a + b | a <- [4,5], b <- [4,5]]
16:45:18 <lambdabot> [4.25,5.25,4.2,5.2]
16:45:27 <int-e> (wrong order, right numbers)
16:45:29 <FireFly> [ (;/ %) 1 2 3
16:45:30 <j-bot> FireFly: ┌─────┬──────────────┐
16:45:30 <j-bot> FireFly: │1 2 3│1 0.5 0.333333│
16:45:30 <j-bot> FireFly: └─────┴──────────────┘
16:45:36 <FireFly> well okay, not a great example
16:45:46 <kspalaiologos> how did you make that fancy table
16:45:47 <FireFly> but anyway
16:46:06 <FireFly> I used ; link, which boxes its left and right arguments before concatenating
16:46:13 <kspalaiologos> alright
16:46:13 <FireFly> [ <'hello' NB. we have boxes
16:46:14 <j-bot> FireFly: ┌─────┐
16:46:14 <j-bot> FireFly: │hello│
16:46:14 <j-bot> FireFly: └─────┘
16:46:26 <FireFly> cats love J
16:46:26 <kspalaiologos> but this box seems a tiny bit off
16:46:28 <kspalaiologos> doesn't it
16:46:28 * FireFly nods
16:46:37 <int-e> [ <<'hello'
16:46:37 <j-bot> int-e: ┌───────┐
16:46:37 <j-bot> int-e: │┌─────┐│
16:46:37 <j-bot> int-e: ││hello││
16:46:37 <j-bot> int-e: │└─────┘│
16:46:37 <j-bot> int-e: └───────┘
16:46:40 <int-e> ...
16:46:46 <Taneb> int-e: what did you expect?
16:46:52 <kspalaiologos> wait
16:46:58 <kspalaiologos> thats actually very interesting
16:47:02 <kspalaiologos> [ <<<"bruh"
16:47:03 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: (< < <"_ _ _)"
16:47:07 <FireFly> lol
16:47:09 <kspalaiologos> [ <<<'bruh'
16:47:10 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: ┌────────┐
16:47:10 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: │┌──────┐│
16:47:10 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: ││┌────┐││
16:47:10 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: │││bruh│││
16:47:10 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: ││└────┘││
16:47:10 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: │└──────┘│
16:47:10 <j-bot> kspalaiologos: └────────┘
16:47:15 <int-e> Taneb: It did what I expected. But it's potentially very noisy.
16:47:33 <Taneb> int-e: I think that's true of a lot of things involving J
16:47:35 <FireFly> yeah, I wonder if the default output ought to be changed to the more consise way
16:47:42 <FireFly> I forget the foreign for it..
16:47:52 <FireFly> lessee
16:48:00 <Taneb> Maybe it could use double-lined boxes
16:48:10 <int-e> FireFly: "concise" if you're wondering about the spelling
16:48:28 <FireFly> whoops
16:48:32 <kspalaiologos> lessee
16:48:35 <kspalaiologos> what language is it
16:48:43 <kspalaiologos> french?
16:48:47 <int-e> engl-ish
16:49:03 <FireFly> kspalaiologos: "let's see"
16:49:08 <int-e> kspalaiologos: imagine a silent 't' after the first 'e'
16:49:17 <kspalaiologos> ah
16:49:22 <kspalaiologos> alright
16:49:26 <kspalaiologos> I misunderstood the context
16:49:38 <int-e> (engl-ish is a contraction of english-ish, of course)
16:49:54 <kspalaiologos> what
16:49:55 <int-e> `? ish
16:49:56 <HackEso> ish? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:50:02 <kspalaiologos> `? engl-ish
16:50:04 <kspalaiologos> `? english-ish
16:50:12 <kspalaiologos> ?
16:50:18 <kspalaiologos> `? test
16:50:22 <FireFly> [ (9!:2)''
16:50:22 <HackEso> engl-ish? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:50:22 <j-bot> FireFly: 5
16:50:23 <kspalaiologos> what just happened
16:50:24 <HackEso> english-ish? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:50:30 <HackEso> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
16:50:31 <kspalaiologos> ah, a great lag
16:51:55 <int-e> kspalaiologos: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/ish has the right definition.
16:52:02 <int-e> (or right-ish?)
16:52:02 <kspalaiologos> is it possible to make a sleep in J?
16:52:11 <Taneb> Hmm, is "ish" a monad (in the Haskell sense)
16:52:20 <Taneb> If something is red, it's red-ish
16:52:27 <Taneb> If something is red-ish-ish, it's red-ish
16:52:36 <arseniiv> I don’t think the latter is true?
16:52:49 <Taneb> It's true-ish ;)
16:52:56 <int-e> . o O ( What color is horse red-ish? )
16:53:05 <arseniiv> hm maybe then it’s monad-ish
16:54:22 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
16:57:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:58:33 <arseniiv> int-e: reminds me about a partially obtuse riddle mentioning a horse too, which has an usual translation “when one buys a horse, what (=in which state) it is?” and an intended translation like “when one have a horse washed” instead of the first, and the answer is then “it is wet”
17:00:49 <arseniiv> it’s weird even originally
17:01:14 <arseniiv> I had seen it only in a book, not in vivo at all
17:01:29 <arseniiv> quite unmemetic
17:01:47 <int-e> . o O ( weird things are far more common than the word's meaning suggests )
17:02:41 <kspalaiologos> http://kspalaiologos.baselinux.net/doc/happy20.wav or http://kspalaiologos.baselinux.net/doc/unreleased.wav
17:02:43 <kspalaiologos> which one is better
17:03:10 <arseniiv> also one about horses from a book: “do horses go to a ball” with an intended reparse “do [somebody plural] walk on the balcony”
17:03:56 <arseniiv> this one even features quite unnatural world permutation to work
17:04:15 <arseniiv> meaning, that permutation is rare even in convoluted poetry
17:04:18 <kspalaiologos> the 2nd one got cut a bit
17:05:37 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: both yours?
17:05:51 <kspalaiologos> I'm planning to put them somewhere
17:06:31 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: it they are tracked, maybe modarchive or what it’s called
17:06:37 <kspalaiologos> no no
17:06:38 <kspalaiologos> not there
17:06:40 <arseniiv> or e. g. Soundcloud
17:06:45 <kspalaiologos> I'm not an artist
17:07:08 <kspalaiologos> they are indeed tracked
17:07:31 <kspalaiologos> actually, I used the first one
17:08:00 <kspalaiologos> but which one is better?
17:08:05 <arseniiv> I’m not able to review in meaningful way but both look pretty solid and fun
17:08:09 <kspalaiologos> let's pretend 2nd didn't get cut
17:09:15 <kspalaiologos> although there were a few songs from modarchive I liked
17:09:21 <arseniiv> as the first is longer, there is more material to judge on… hm. I can’t say I wouldn’t pick the first
17:09:23 <kspalaiologos> especially 2pi radix or 486
17:09:31 <arseniiv> but the second is good too
17:10:05 <kspalaiologos> and I used in my game a couple of months ago a song named "blinded monarch" from modarchive
17:10:09 <arseniiv> (I myself don’t go to modarchive but I know about it via OpenMPT forum)
17:10:09 <kspalaiologos> forgot the artist though
17:10:27 <kspalaiologos> x86 assembly + SDL1.2 is dope though
17:10:54 <kspalaiologos> https://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=170225
17:10:56 <kspalaiologos> there it is
17:12:03 <arseniiv> I like the alternate beat in the second at 0:30
17:13:09 <kspalaiologos> 2nd one will be looped so it's quite short and the alternate beat was very important because it would feel terribly if the same part was looped over and over
17:16:10 <arseniiv> agree
17:16:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68700&oldid=68698 * Hex96 * (+82) /* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */
17:16:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68701&oldid=68700 * Hex96 * (+1) /* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */
17:16:40 <kspalaiologos> another very entertaining to watch trend?
17:17:00 <kspalaiologos> random button on the wiki is very disappointing
17:17:09 <kspalaiologos> in most cases I land either on trivial brainfuck derivative
17:17:15 <kspalaiologos> or a joke language
17:19:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:19:48 <ais523> perhaps constant-output languages should be split out of [[Category:Languages]] in order to discourage random spamming of trivially simple language ideas in order to discouarge attempts to bias the random-language functionality?
17:20:08 <kspalaiologos> +1 from me
17:20:12 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: yeah, unfortunate :(
17:20:18 <kspalaiologos> also, we really can merge all the brainfuck substitutions
17:20:21 <kspalaiologos> into one article
17:20:26 <arseniiv> ais523: looks interesting
17:20:55 <kspalaiologos> or maybe enhanced random page button ?
17:20:59 <kspalaiologos> (if its doable)
17:21:09 <ais523> something I've been meaning to do for a while but never got around to was to write a metalanguage that generated BF-equivalents (and maybe some almost-equivalents)
17:21:09 <kspalaiologos> that lets to filter out / in categories
17:21:20 <ais523> for the purpose of being able to merge them all into a single page
17:26:15 <kspalaiologos> can't someone run a perl script
17:26:18 <kspalaiologos> on the server
17:26:41 <kspalaiologos> to merge all pages containing the [[:Category:Trivial Brainfuck Substitution]] (or something along these lines)
17:26:56 <kspalaiologos> it could be done even using shell script
17:27:15 <ais523> MediaWiki's DB organisation is kind-of fragile, it's certainly possible to do that but I wouldn't be at all confident the script was touching every table it needed to in the correct way
17:27:38 <kspalaiologos> then maybe use selenium?
17:27:43 <kspalaiologos> to automate the browser
17:28:07 <ais523> fwiw I'd be much more confident doing something like that client-side via a tool like AWB
17:28:28 <kspalaiologos> whats awb
17:28:43 <kspalaiologos> k AutoWikiBrowser
17:29:55 <kspalaiologos> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage#Approved_users
17:29:57 <kspalaiologos> what an idiotism
17:30:10 <kspalaiologos> a power user will just nop out the statements used for the check
17:30:17 <kspalaiologos> if it's open source its even easier
17:31:12 <ais523> kspalaiologos: it's pretty good at keeping out script kiddies
17:31:26 <kspalaiologos> in which way?
17:31:34 <kspalaiologos> there's no source
17:31:37 <ais523> they don't even know how to override the check
17:31:40 <kspalaiologos> so it's easy
17:31:48 <kspalaiologos> just use dotPeek
17:32:07 <kspalaiologos> or a proxy
17:32:27 <kspalaiologos> that will add my username to the wiki page, there must be a programmable tool for that
17:32:31 <ais523> also, the list is enforced two ways: both by the tool itself, and by Wikipedia administrators who can block accounts that are using automated editing illegally
17:32:49 <kspalaiologos> block is delayed
17:32:55 <kspalaiologos> whoever wants to do it will do it
17:32:58 <ais523> it's pretty hard to bypass the check in the tool unknowingly
17:33:13 <kspalaiologos> it seems like a cool thing to do this afternoon
17:33:28 <kspalaiologos> obviously I won't "test it"
17:33:46 <ais523> so using the tool contrary to the checkpage check is pretty strong evidence that someone is intentionally trying to violate policy
17:34:15 <kspalaiologos> protection on the clientside is useless
17:34:55 <kspalaiologos> other approach should be taken
17:34:59 <ais523> the thing is, on Wikipedia anything can be reverted
17:35:07 <kspalaiologos> ratelimits, have they heard of it
17:35:11 <ais523> and someone having bypassed a clientside check is good evidence that it /should/ be reverted
17:35:26 <kspalaiologos> possibly but reverting in batch can be sometimes bad
17:35:43 <kspalaiologos> maybe the user mixed good and bad contributions? maybe someone already touched the page since "change"?
17:35:46 <ais523> yes, that's why it's a good idea to have a system that lets you know whether reverting in batch is likely to be helpful
17:35:46 <kspalaiologos> just add ratelimits
17:36:00 <kspalaiologos> ratelimits on edits, no more than a page per minute
17:36:01 <ais523> also, I'm pretty sure there are systems that check to see if an account is editing too fast
17:36:11 <kspalaiologos> they have to check the list
17:36:14 <kspalaiologos> possibly
17:36:16 <ais523> that's one of the things the "bot flag" on an account is for, it disables the rate limits
17:36:22 <kspalaiologos> so the clientside protection is useless
17:36:25 <kspalaiologos> as the backend will take care
17:36:37 <ais523> but that has to be set manually and there's vetting of the user/bot first
17:36:55 <kspalaiologos> manually?
17:37:10 <kspalaiologos> just get an automated system that trashes account of an user that makes more than two edits a second constantly
17:37:38 <ais523> kspalaiologos: no, I mean permission to bypass rate limits has to be given manually
17:37:48 <kspalaiologos> like the entry on checklist
17:38:01 <ais523> the rate limits themselves are probably automatic, although I don't think I have perms to check atm
17:38:11 <kspalaiologos> you're a wikipedia admin?
17:38:14 <kspalaiologos> interesting
17:38:43 <kspalaiologos> c'mon man
17:38:47 <ais523> not right now, I was at one time though (I resigned due to lack of activity)
17:38:49 <kspalaiologos> they havent even obfuscated the assembly
17:39:37 <ais523> the abuse filter configuration is stored in a non-public database; however, there is a public page listing a subset of it, but it's unclear whether rate limits would be in the public or the private subset
17:40:03 <kspalaiologos> I haven't dug through mediawiki
17:40:18 <ais523> looking at the source code for this would be pointless because it's a configuration setting, not hardcoded
17:42:09 <ais523> OK, I checked the public part of the configuration: it states that a rate limit exists; however, the exact numbers are not public
17:42:46 <kspalaiologos> << This user doesn't have enough privileges to make automatic edits on this wiki. >>
17:42:57 <kspalaiologos> a check and the messagebox below
17:47:49 <fizzie> You just said the client-side protection is useless, now you're complaining about them not spending enough effort on it.
17:49:39 <kspalaiologos> well, you see
17:49:46 <kspalaiologos> when someone makes clientside protection
17:49:50 <kspalaiologos> they either resign before making it
17:49:54 <kspalaiologos> or make it hard to overcome
17:50:10 <ais523> or duplicate it on the server side
17:50:13 <kspalaiologos> there are no inbetweeners, because it has no sense to implement weak protection
17:50:52 <ais523> client-side validation that's duplicated on the server-side is pretty helpful because it saves the server time dealing with known bad values, and saves the user time too because the client-side check is faster when using a slow Internet connection
17:51:02 <kspalaiologos> wait
17:51:06 <kspalaiologos> for a clientside check
17:51:10 <kspalaiologos> they first connect to the wiki
17:51:14 <kspalaiologos> download allowed nicks list
17:51:26 <ais523> I'm talking in general here, rather than about AWB in particular
17:51:27 <kspalaiologos> and then they check whether the client can proceed or not
17:51:39 <kspalaiologos> well AWB uses inet connection for a clientside check
17:51:43 <ais523> in AWB, the server-side duplication is a little less accurate because it isn't always 100% obvious whether someone's using AWB or not
17:51:43 <kspalaiologos> so your argument is invalid
17:52:05 <ais523> which is the reason why the client-side check helps there
17:52:29 <kspalaiologos> it's not effective
17:52:43 <kspalaiologos> it would be a shame if (*cough*) someone, released an unlocked version.
17:52:49 <kspalaiologos> that's why it doesn't work
17:53:13 <ais523> people bypassing the check basically just costs the Wikipedia administrators time in cleaning the issue up, it doesn't do lasting damage
17:53:29 <kspalaiologos> it shouldn't cost anything
17:53:40 <ais523> so having an imperfect check is a good time-saving device, compared to having no client-side check
17:53:46 <kspalaiologos> if ratelimits were optimally implemented
17:54:17 <ais523> there are rate limits, but manual edits can go pretty quickly sometimes
17:54:25 <kspalaiologos> how quickly?
17:54:29 <ais523> I think I managed something like 8/minute manually cleaning up spam
17:54:50 <ais523> so the rate limits, despite not being public, are likely set to something comparable to that
17:54:52 <kspalaiologos> and you think that automatic tool will edit at 8 edits a minute?
17:54:57 <kspalaiologos> it'll go like crazy
17:55:11 <ais523> it can go much faster in full-auto mode, but that would be noticed
17:55:15 <ais523> and blocked very quickly
17:55:25 <kspalaiologos> well that's a point
17:55:46 <ais523> 30-60/minute is common for full-auto bots, with maxlag compensation
17:56:13 <kspalaiologos> anyways I think clientside check is nonsense
17:56:30 <ais523> you think it would be better to not have the check?
17:56:33 <kspalaiologos> my friend used to put anti-scriptkiddie check in his CS1.7 (or whatever it was called) bot
17:56:36 <wib_jonas> are you talking about irc rate limiting and jeval's rate limiter? I can tell you about these
17:56:46 <kspalaiologos> wikimedia
17:56:51 <ais523> there's a statement along the lines of "locks are to keep out honest users", this will prevent anyone honest using it without getting authorisation
17:57:01 <kspalaiologos> ais523, strengthten the check to make it more effective
17:57:06 <kspalaiologos> OR get rid of it completely
17:57:10 <wib_jonas> oh, wiki edits?
17:57:16 <kspalaiologos> just think of power users
17:57:22 <kspalaiologos> even a script kiddie can download a macro program
17:57:25 <kspalaiologos> that will record mouseclocks
17:57:28 <kspalaiologos> *mouseclicks
17:57:29 <kspalaiologos> and keystrokes
17:57:30 <ais523> it's easy to bypass by someone who wants to be an issue, but those people are rare, and the existence of the check makes it clear that such people are being intentionally unconstructive when they get caught (which normally happens quickly)
17:58:07 <wib_jonas> I guess I'll have to read this scrollback later, gtg now
17:58:18 <kspalaiologos> well
17:58:25 <kspalaiologos> I haven't been administrating a large site
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17:58:47 <kspalaiologos> but I believe I'd get that sorted out in a better way it is right now
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17:58:57 <kspalaiologos> obviously it's not terrible, it's just meh
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18:14:38 <kspalaiologos> g2g
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18:27:54 <esowiki> [[Comp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68702&oldid=68668 * Hex96 * (+75) /* commands */
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18:58:36 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68703&oldid=68619 * Hex96 * (+46)
19:00:37 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68704&oldid=68703 * Hex96 * (-2) /* Examples */
19:03:21 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68705&oldid=68704 * Hex96 * (+83) /* Examples */
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19:05:39 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68706&oldid=68705 * Hex96 * (+54)
19:05:58 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68707&oldid=68706 * Hex96 * (+1)
19:11:19 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68708&oldid=68707 * Hex96 * (+55) /* calculator */
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19:25:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68709&oldid=68389 * Hex96 * (+92)
19:26:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68710&oldid=68709 * Hex96 * (+2)
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19:58:34 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: for merging brainfuck equivalents, note that Ook! has some historical significance so I'd prefer it to have its own page
19:59:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos, ais523: the esolangs.org wiki has the api.php interface enabled, at https://esolangs.org/w/api.php , documented at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Main_page ,
20:00:05 <b_jonas> that's the interface that I recommend if you want to make automated changes to lots of pages, or other complex automation
20:00:44 <b_jonas> it's not the only API, eg. there's also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Export , but it's a very general one, and usually it's the most convenient one for automation
20:02:14 <esowiki> [[User:CarlosLuna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68711&oldid=68689 * CarlosLuna * (-196) Improving indentation
20:02:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: yes, of course there are rate limits on the server. why would you think there aren't? the interface even tells you what rate it wants you to edit stuff, because sometimes the Mediawiki servers are overloaded, in which case they ask bots to edit slower
20:03:12 <b_jonas> what the client side does is to just read those rate limits in the replies and wait for the appropriate time
20:03:57 <b_jonas> "<ais523> that's one of the things the "bot flag" on an account is for, it disables the rate limits" => no, not really. the bot flag is more for marking bots that are trusted so that people patrolling RecentChanges or other lists of changes can easily ignore bot edits
20:08:33 <b_jonas> the point of the client-side rate limits is that they can submit your write request slowly enough that the server doesn't ban you for editing more quickly. those client-side rate limits are what let you spam the server. if you remove them, you'll just get your request refused by the server in a busy loop.
20:16:22 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> that's the interface that I recommend if you want to make automated changes to lots of pages, or other complex automation => this is great! (possibly; didn’t read what it allows)
20:17:01 <arseniiv> good that MediaWiki folks had thought about that
20:17:31 <fizzie> Just try not to get carried away.
20:18:03 <fizzie> (I'll be the one who has to restore from backup if you do.)
20:18:36 <fizzie> Also, anything that *requires* "complex automation" is probably sufficiently drastic to have a talk page discussion for a few months before implementing.
20:19:03 <fizzie> (Few months of esolangs.org time is probably equivalent of few days of Wikipedia time, relatively speaking.)
20:22:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: no it's not. en.wikipedia has hundreds of edits per minute, and even the smaller wikipedias have a lot of edits. the esolangs wiki has had less than 100000 edits total.
20:22:30 <fizzie> It doesn't scale that way.
20:22:46 <fizzie> It's a logarithm of edit speed or something.
20:23:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, it's generally a good api. not perfect, but good.
20:24:02 <b_jonas> sometimes it lags a little behind the other latest developments of mediawiki and its extensions, so there can be extension functions that work but not yet accessible through the api,
20:24:47 <b_jonas> or sometimes the permissions are inconsistent, as in there's at least one list that I can query through the default html interface anonymously, but get a permission error if I try to query it through api.php
20:24:59 <b_jonas> or was
20:25:44 <b_jonas> I met that problem a year ago, might be fixed by now
20:27:31 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Just try not to get carried away. => for my part, I’m not going to use it at all :D but glad anyway
20:29:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: discussion before implementing it => only if it has write operations I think. api.php is useful for read-only stuff too, such as watching new changes
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20:34:25 <fizzie> Sure, that's f... well, fine, within reason.
20:36:28 <b_jonas> obviously only if you don't overload the server
20:39:10 <fizzie> Hypothetically, for watching new changes, there's the push-based mechanism that can be used through having a discussion.
20:41:18 <fizzie> And the data dump for local analysis purposes, though there's a link to that on the main page, so it's very discoverable.
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21:41:30 <int-e> This is stupid... https://projecteuler.net/problem=674 is so careful to explain that one should pair "distinct expressions from file <file name here>", and the file contains a duplicate entry... and turns out you are supposed to compare expressions with different line numbers instead, even if they are the same.
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22:34:27 <fizzie> int-e: Have you always been doing PE, or is this just for AoC withdrawal?
22:45:49 <int-e> fizzie: I was clean for almost 10 years, but AoC kind of triggered this relapse
22:46:18 <int-e> (Is that right? Maybe it was only 6 years)
22:46:28 <int-e> A long time anyway.
22:46:29 <b_jonas> int-e: in that case, sorry if I prompted you to this (I mentioned AoC)
22:46:38 <int-e> b_jonas: don't worry about it.
22:49:14 <int-e> I'm kind of proving to myself that I can still do this. The trick will be to stop when I reach the milestone I set out with (solving the 25 most recent problems. I have two to go.)
22:50:27 <b_jonas> int-e: solve 25 recent ones on http://www.spoj.com/ too :-)
22:50:43 <int-e> 10 years is about right. I stopped around https://projecteuler.net/problem=231
22:51:04 <int-e> b_jonas: Yeah probably not.
22:51:34 <int-e> The thing is I kind of like the combinatorial sort of problems that PE does.
22:54:29 <int-e> (PE includes publishing dates with their problems so the link is suitable for dating.)
22:57:47 <fizzie> int-e: I've been toying with the idea of doing p5.js visual illustrations out of my solutions, did two already -- https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc-2019-p5/ -- but not sure if I'll finish, not all of them are as visual. Though many are.
22:58:32 <int-e> I have not touched any AoC or Intcode... this year, I think.
22:59:10 <int-e> We should get kspalaiologos to write tools for that :P
23:02:22 <int-e> fizzie: Oh the CA one is pretty. In the asteroid scan too much is going on.
23:02:52 <fizzie> int-e: Did you let the scan run to part 2? I think that's better.
23:03:28 <fizzie> Part 1 is just a flickery mess, it's true.
23:03:32 <int-e> Hmm, ket me see.
23:03:55 <int-e> Oh I remember what it was... yes, part 2 should work better.
23:04:00 <fizzie> I mean, it's not going to be any prettier, just less messy.
23:04:16 <int-e> But now I missed the fun part.
23:05:13 <int-e> Yeah, part 2 is nicer :)
23:05:42 <fizzie> My target asteroid 200 was in the first sweep, not sure if that's always the case.
23:06:13 <int-e> Mine was too.
23:06:35 <int-e> And it was number 200 as well.
23:09:35 <int-e> Ah, you did the sweep differently :)
23:09:53 <int-e> I actually used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern-Brocot_tree to get the possible directions in clockwise order.
23:11:23 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1124909/
23:12:44 <fizzie> Heh, interesting. Kind of more discrete.
23:14:58 <fizzie> I did consider doing the same thing I did (reuse part 1's 'get visible' function, sort the result) but using a quadrant-and-slope kind of thing for the sort instead of atan2.
23:15:38 <int-e> But yeah, atan2 seems simpler.
23:16:07 <int-e> Unless you worry about rounding errors...
23:16:46 <fizzie> I did, but it gave the right result. :)
23:17:10 <int-e> Oh yes, there is that in these competitions.
23:17:15 <fizzie> I guess the whole "only the visible ones" + the limited size of the grid means you can't really get angles that near each other.
23:19:58 <int-e> But let's see... two subsequent angles span a parallelogram of area 1, so the angle between them is arcsin(1/(ab)) where a and b are the lengths of the vectors... which are less than sqrt(2)*48.
23:20:13 <int-e> > asin (1/(2*48^2))
23:20:17 <lambdabot> 2.170138905922681e-4
23:20:41 <int-e> As you can see, no need to worry about rounding errors :)
23:21:31 <int-e> s/angles/directions/ (and by "direction" I mean an integer vector (p,q) with gcd(p,q) = 1)
23:22:30 <int-e> > atan2 1 1 - atan2 46 47
23:22:33 <lambdabot> 1.0752273791101219e-2
23:23:07 <int-e> > atan2 45 46 - atan2 46 47 -- ah, this is more like it
23:23:09 <lambdabot> -2.362948916323493e-4
23:23:53 <int-e> that should be the actual minumum achievable difference
23:24:06 <int-e> iuiuiu.
23:25:06 <int-e> > atan2 3 3 - atan2 5 5 -- now I'm curious
23:25:09 <lambdabot> 0.0
23:26:06 <int-e> fizzie: wait, your grid is so much smaller than mine!
23:26:26 <int-e> I got a 48x48 one.
23:26:36 <fizzie> Weird. That's what I got as my input file.
23:27:22 <fizzie> This is the one day I did real early (as in, leaderboard early), I guess it's technically possible they might have changed the size? Sounds odd though.
23:27:23 <int-e> 346 asteroids, not many more than yours
23:27:55 <int-e> Yeah, quite possibly.
23:28:36 <int-e> Or maybe they just picked a random value between 20 and 50.
23:28:54 <int-e> It's not like the problem became any simpler or harder because of it.
23:30:50 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1124911/ it looks nicer this way actually
23:32:46 <fizzie> It does, yes.
23:32:53 <fizzie> My grid's so cramped. :/
23:54:47 <int-e> > (atan2 7673 4316 - atan2 7657 4307 :: Double, atan2 7673 4316 - atan2 7657 4307 :: Float) -- single precision is not enough on an 8K display
23:54:50 <lambdabot> (-1.2929723736121446e-8,0.0)
00:01:09 <int-e> > atan2 3817 (-2147) - atan2 3801 (-2138) :: Float -- oops, still too much
00:01:11 <lambdabot> 0.0
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07:13:34 <oerjan> `wisdom saur
07:13:34 <HackEso> sauron//Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
07:13:43 <oerjan> `wisdom saur
07:13:44 <HackEso> sauron//Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
07:16:10 <oerjan> `? lystrosaur
07:16:13 <HackEso> The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
07:16:16 <oerjan> `? lystrosaurus
07:16:18 <HackEso> Lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
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07:17:45 <oerjan> `? ais523
07:17:47 <HackEso> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
07:22:23 <arseniiv> 3rd March is too long to wait
07:24:21 <oerjan> @localtime arseniiv
07:24:22 <lambdabot> Local time for arseniiv is вт янв. 7 12:24:20 2020
07:24:53 <arseniiv> I’m early today!
07:25:18 <oerjan> hm....
07:25:57 <arseniiv> and the yawn already starts taking me
07:26:59 <arseniiv> can’t get used to 2020 in the date
07:28:48 <oerjan> it is a date that can only be corrected in hindsight
07:29:54 <kmc> looking forward to 04:20:04 2020-04-20
07:30:24 <oerjan> what
07:31:54 <oerjan> insufficiently palindromic
07:31:57 <kmc> @localtime kmc
07:32:00 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Mon Jan 6 23:31:58 2020
07:33:11 <oerjan> `? zemhill
07:33:12 <HackEso> zemhill? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:33:38 <oerjan> `learn zemhill is a bot for playing BF Joust, something we cannot underscore enough.
07:33:42 <HackEso> Learned 'zemhill': zemhill is a bot for playing BF Joust, something we cannot underscore enough.
07:33:56 <oerjan> !help
07:33:56 <zemhill_________> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
07:34:35 <oerjan> `learn_append zemhill See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
07:34:36 <HackEso> Usage: le/rn_append keyword//Text you'd like to append.
07:34:50 <oerjan> `learn_append zemhill//See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
07:34:51 <HackEso> Usage: le/rn_append keyword//Text you'd like to append.
07:34:59 <oerjan> wat
07:35:08 <oerjan> `le/rn_append zemhill//See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
07:35:11 <HackEso> Learned 'zemhill': zemhill is a bot for playing BF Joust, something we cannot underscore enough. See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
07:35:21 <oerjan> `? !zjoust
07:35:22 <HackEso> ​!zjoust? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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10:19:04 <rain1> hello
10:28:53 <rain1> https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/gcr-decoding/index.php
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10:53:29 <kspalaiologos> Greets
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13:03:51 <rain1> anyone else watching games done quick
13:08:29 <int-e> rain1: previous GDQ events have been discussed (b_jonas is the biggest fan in my mind... he's not here now though)
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13:33:50 <myname> i usually just watch the mario videos on youtube later
14:23:12 <arseniiv> have someone heard somebody saying “EOF” or “EOS” in place of “period” at the end of a statement?
14:25:23 <arseniiv> it would feel self-ironic, I’d expect someone to have invented that
14:26:59 <myname> i only know of EOD, but that's quite different
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14:44:54 <fizzie> Or EOT, it's the ASCII name for ^d, "end of transmission". (There's also ETX and ETB, for 'end of text' and 'end of transmission block' respectively.)
15:03:26 <arseniiv> bad conlanging ideas (oh sorry it’s the other channel): using US RS GS FS in a natural-language text
15:03:43 <myname> U SRS?
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15:08:21 <kspalaiologos> my phone might have commited suicide
15:08:54 <kspalaiologos> looks like bricked, power button not working
15:09:53 <myname> depending on the phone, thy might react to putting them on a charger
15:10:04 <kspalaiologos> funny?
15:10:15 <kspalaiologos> it was nearly fully charged
15:10:24 <kspalaiologos> also holding the power button should give any feedback
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15:10:58 <kspalaiologos> even when it's battery is depleted (that's how you say it in english?)
15:11:20 <arseniiv> maybe just “is low”
15:12:23 <kspalaiologos> when it's low the phone is still usable
15:12:28 <kspalaiologos> depleted sounds more logical to me
15:12:42 <kspalaiologos> or even drained?
15:12:54 <fizzie> Arguably, if it's literally "depleted", it's not going to provide any feedback, because it's not like the screen actually runs without electricity. But granted, usually there's some feedback from long-press, because it's just low enough to not work, not completely empty.
15:13:26 <kspalaiologos> fizzie, most phones are protected from depleting their battery completely
15:13:53 <kspalaiologos> rather it's better IMO to call them depleted in the logical sense - phone refuses to run
15:14:23 <fizzie> If it's an Android one, it's possible the bootloader is still reachable over USB. I had a Nexus 5X die that way.
15:14:43 <myname> well, it can only respond to holding the power button if you don't have a broken power button
15:15:09 <kspalaiologos> I didn't have issues with it before
15:15:27 <kspalaiologos> can't believe that it broke down completely in my pocket in around 2-3 hours
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15:22:52 <arseniiv> :(
15:25:25 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: ah wait when you open it there should be a small hole somewhere, and pushing inside with a pen or something like that should reset something and maybe the phone would be able to say something the next time you hold the power button
15:26:58 <arseniiv> I think I have made something this way when an SD card in my phone broke and it tried to fix the card and was booting for ages I had no patience to wait if it will boot at all
15:27:43 <arseniiv> though I don’t remember the details what and why I have done, but that reset button was used I think
15:29:03 <int-e> @google color with d
15:29:04 <lambdabot> http://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.spycolor.com/color-index,d
15:29:04 <lambdabot> Title: Уведомление о переадресации
15:29:41 <kspalaiologos> what is this
15:29:46 <kspalaiologos> I can barely read russian but
15:30:34 <int-e> Good question, hmm.
15:30:43 <kspalaiologos> Uvadomeniye o pereadresatsii
15:30:52 <kspalaiologos> I believe it's like
15:31:12 <kspalaiologos> forwarding noticve?
15:31:18 <kspalaiologos> warning?
15:33:06 <int-e> Yeah, that's fine. It's google's doing. What is interesting is that it thinks that lambdabot resides in a russian speaking country.
15:33:33 <kritixilithos> @duckduckgo ts
15:33:34 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
15:34:15 <int-e> (the google plugin should probably stip the google part from the search result anyway)
15:36:13 <int-e> *strip
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16:28:04 <kspalaiologos> @google my timezone
16:28:06 <lambdabot> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/findzone.tzc
16:28:06 <lambdabot> Title: Уведомление о переадресации
16:28:15 <kspalaiologos> bruh
16:28:17 <kspalaiologos> still the same
16:28:21 <int-e> OF COURSE
16:30:32 <fizzie> @google what is my ip
16:30:34 <lambdabot> http://www.google.com/url?q=https://whatismyipaddress.com/
16:30:34 <lambdabot> Title: Уведомление о переадресации
16:30:49 <fizzie> Aw, it doesn't do the answer-answer, it just does the first search result.
16:31:13 <int-e> It's fetching Google's redirect page that would redirect to the actual thing.
16:31:22 <int-e> So... the Title will not change.
16:31:52 <int-e> Also I'm not sure whether https works.
16:33:46 <fizzie> I'm tempted to patch in some easter egg query that'd make lambdabot print something funny, but that'd probably raise some eyebrows at code review time.
16:37:10 <int-e> @google 1 in in cm
16:37:11 <lambdabot> http://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.inches-to-cm.com/
16:37:11 <lambdabot> Title: Уведомление о переадресации
16:37:33 <int-e> Oh that's what you meant, I see. Yeah, that used to work at some point, but Google is very much of a moving target.
16:38:41 <fizzie> Oh yes. Though the answer box is probably a lot easier to scrape than the interactive unit converter widget. Not that I've ever looked at how the HTML looks like for either.
16:40:06 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a lot of user agenting going on to decide what to serve.
16:40:34 <fizzie> (Heh, I wonder how lambdabot queries appear in our browser classification.)
16:44:03 <int-e> I'm wondering what IP it actually uses for this. (IPv4 or IPv6 is the main question here)
16:45:28 <kmc> compromise on IPv5
16:45:45 <fizzie> Hey, the world has just (as in, mid-December) crossed 30% for IPv6: https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html
16:47:39 <int-e> somebody should tell the mobile phone providers
16:48:07 <fizzie> I suspect most of that is likely mobile/
16:48:17 <fizzie> There were a few high-profile mobile providers that went IPv6.