00:00:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't know what the indigestion refers to
00:00:21 <b_jonas> is that some befunge thing?
00:02:29 <fizzie> I believe it's also an C-INTERCAL error message.
00:03:05 <fizzie> https://github.com/calvinmetcalf/intercal/blob/8a65e8b/doc/ick.txi#L1916
00:03:09 <b_jonas> so two references to intercal? ok
00:04:07 <fizzie> Well, it's well-known.
00:04:34 <b_jonas> yes, because we haven't featured befunge on the wiki yet
00:04:55 <HackEso> 2019-12-01 00:04:54.766 +0000 UTC December 1 Sunday 2019-W48-7
00:04:59 <HackEso> The password of the month is mostly irrelevant.
00:05:16 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{date|shortdate} " password
00:05:24 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{date|shortdate} " /hackenv/wisdom/password
00:05:26 <HackEso> 2019-11-04 2019-11-04 2019-10-01 2019-09-01 2019-08-01 2019-07-01 2019-06-02 2019-05-01 2019-04-09 2019-03-30 2019-02-04 2019-02-03 2019-01-01 2018-12-01 2018-11-01 2018-10-02 2018-09-05 2018-08-03 2018-07-20 2018-06-03 2018-05-05 2018-04-14 2018-04-14 2018-03-07 2018-02-15 2017-12-31 2017-12-01 2017-12-01 2017-11-04 2017-10-01 2017-09-02 2017-08-22 2017-08-16 2017-07-11 2017-06-02 2017-06-02 2017-06-02 201
00:06:30 <fizzie> Every time the topic of featured languages comes up, my first thoughts are "we should feature Befunge" and "but the article should be made better first".
00:10:22 <zzo38> Then, make the article better first please.
00:11:07 <fizzie> I agree that would be great.
00:12:00 <b_jonas> the Befunge article isn't good enough?
00:12:25 <b_jonas> I thought it was good enough, it just wasn't featured yet because the previous feature was too recent
00:14:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's useful info though, because if you think that we should feature befunge then I can revoke my suggestion and suggest featuring a different language
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00:34:47 <kingoffrance> some reason befunge always reminds me of doom cacodemon floating around; its the < > look like thorns i think
00:35:51 <kingoffrance> combine with ff6 mr. chupon says "fungahhhh!" or similar
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00:50:31 <HackEso> 1/2:dc//dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[') \ canaima//Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here. \ middle worse//Mïðal VVőrszü vvoràði nyëlv spöket af magyar inva̋ðereknek leszármazottai Herefördshirben äppröxima̋tely 1250. \ invention//Invention is the daughter of necessity. \ morphism//A morphism is just a natu
00:50:33 <HackEso> 2/2:ral transformation between two diagrams of shape 1.
00:52:07 <HackEso> shachäf tsweẗt oerjän shachäf ellioẗt oerjän fizzïe GreyKnigḧt GreyKnigḧt GreyKnigḧt
00:52:46 <fizzie> `` dc -e '[' # no core dump
00:53:37 <fizzie> I was pretty sure I contributed to that in no way, but apparently I just added the word "just" in it.
00:53:39 <HackEso> 11998:2019-11-04 <ais523̈_> le//rn password//The password of the month is mostly irrelevant. \ 11997:2019-11-04 <ais523̈_> le//rn password//The password of the month is mostly irrelvant. \ 11958:2019-10-01 <arseniïv> learn The password of the month is not what it seems \ 11925:2019-09-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is ninjaed. \ 11890:2019-08-01 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is surprising. \ 11843:2019-07-01 <sha
00:54:27 <HackEso> The password of the month is mostly irrelevant.
00:54:37 <fizzie> December is fair game now.
00:54:49 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sat Nov 30 16:54:46 2019
00:55:08 <int-e> Did we agree on UTC?
00:55:16 <fizzie> We never agree on anything.
00:58:13 <int-e> . o O ( `learn The password of the month will be revealed on December 25th. )
00:58:15 <b_jonas> ``` TZ=Pacific/Auckland datei # New Zealand is even more ahead
00:58:16 <HackEso> 2019-12-01 13:58:15.829 +1300 NZDT December 1 Sunday 2019-W48-7
00:58:36 <b_jonas> int-e: on 2019-12-19, in the cinemas for Star Wars
00:59:16 <int-e> I was thinking advent calendar.
01:02:10 <int-e> But maybe something simpler is in order.
01:04:20 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is naughty.
01:04:22 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is naughty.
01:08:44 <esowiki> [[Forth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67547&oldid=65396 * IFcoltransG * (+13) Added {{serious}} template
01:12:09 <esowiki> [[Perl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67548&oldid=39786 * IFcoltransG * (+13) Added {{Serious}} template
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01:54:13 <zzo38> Fire Goats Mountain {-} Legendary Land - Mountain ;; ~ enters the battlefield tapped. ;; When ~ enters the battlefield, create a 0/1 white and red Goat creature token. ;; {1}, {T}: Target creature gains "{R}: Destroy all equipment attached to this creature. This creature deals 1 damage to each creature blocking or blocked by this creature." until end of turn.
01:56:54 <zzo38> Black Crystal Star {4} Artifact ;; As ~ enters the battlefield, create a 1/1 Golem artifact creature token. ;; {2}, {T}: That token becomes a copy of target creature until that creature's copiable values change, or ~ or that creature leaves the battlefield, or the token becomes a copy of something else due to ~.
02:00:16 <zzo38> Threshold of Death {1BB} Artifact Enchantment ;; As an additional cost to cast ~, sacrifice four creatures. ;; Whenever a nonartifact permanent that you do not control attacks you or deals damage to you, destroy that permanent. ;; At the beginning of your upkeep, pay 1 life or sacrifice ~.
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02:09:23 <oerjan> @tell kspalaiologos by your wrethed polish name i'm not referring to your nick here but to the one on CGCC, which i assumed _was_ your real name
02:11:25 <oerjan> @tell kspalaiologos which you're also saying on the wiki
02:12:54 <oerjan> @tell kspalaiologos your nick here is mostly greek, not polish, anyway
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02:15:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BrainDamage * New user account
02:16:13 <fizzie> So should it be κσπαλαιολόγος then?
02:17:17 <zzo38> Do you like Magic: the Gathering cards?
02:17:31 <int-e> fizzie: that would be another invalid IRC character
02:18:15 <zzo38> Yes, since the names should be ASCII or ISO-646 only, I think.
02:18:34 <zzo38> (and also some other restrictions too, I think)
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02:25:24 <oerjan> <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: oerjan found a bug in your bot <-- i don't recall being involved with the := bug, and until now not a single message of mine has triggered it
02:25:24 <bfbot> <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: oerjan found a bug in your bot <-- i don't recall being involved with the :No such command. Try =help.
02:29:32 <oerjan> fizzie: ξπαλαιολόγος hth
02:33:07 <HackEso> ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ ørjan:Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. \ xenon:Xenon is a noble gas element. It has been banned in most countries due to xenophobia.
02:35:03 <oerjan> `learn ξπαλαιολόγος is kspalaiologos's Ancient Greek twin. He was banned from the theater for making up invalid characters.
02:35:07 <HackEso> Learned 'ξπαλαιολόγος': ξπαλαιολόγος is kspalaiologos's Ancient Greek twin. He was banned from the theater for making up invalid characters.
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02:39:14 <HackEso> zzo38//zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
02:40:00 <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/b: No such file or directory
02:41:49 <esowiki> [[Template:Serious]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67549&oldid=8403 * IFcoltransG * (+10) Added a URL parameter to the template for redirecting url away from disambig pages
02:44:00 <esowiki> [[Template:Serious]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67550&oldid=67549 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Made parameter not replace "Wikipedia:" in link
02:45:05 <esowiki> [[Forth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67551&oldid=67547 * IFcoltransG * (+33) Add URL parameter to {{Serious}} template, so it doesn't go to disambiguation page
02:53:17 <HackEso> 10877:2017-05-10 <shachäf> slwd morphism//s.1.shape 1. \ 9325:2016-10-18 <tsweẗt> slwd morphism//s/functors on/diagrams of/ \ 5251:2015-02-03 <oerjän> learn A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1. \ 5138:2014-11-16 <shachäf> revert 5134 \ 5135:2014-11-16 <ellioẗt> find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El \'(is|are) just\' | xargs rm \ 1294:2013-01-07 <oerjän> echo "Morphisms are just elements o
02:53:35 <oerjan> fizzie: i think it already had the word "just" hth
02:54:07 * oerjan somehow misinterpreted the first "just" as "just now"
02:54:38 <HackEso> 1256:2013-01-04 <GreyKnigḧt> echo "A morphism is just an abstraction derived from structure-preserving mappings between two mathematical structures." > wisdom/morphism \ 1257:2013-01-04 <GreyKnigḧt> echo "A morphism is just an abstraction derived from structure-preserving mappings between two categories." > wisdom/morphism \ 1259:2013-01-04 <GreyKnigḧt> echo "A morphism is a map between two objects in an abstract category." > wisdom/morp
02:54:47 <oerjan> hm you seem to be in the gap
02:54:53 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/morphism
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02:59:04 <oerjan> apparently we've had the serious template for ages but it wasn't used for anything
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04:07:01 <esowiki> [[Non-specific assignment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67552&oldid=44558 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Added concepts category
04:40:06 <esowiki> [[Sillycon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67553&oldid=40977 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Fixed typo
04:41:53 <esowiki> [[Sillycon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67554&oldid=67553 * IFcoltransG * (-1) More typos
04:59:48 <esowiki> [[Grr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67555&oldid=60476 * IFcoltransG * (+61) Cleaned up grammar
05:02:14 <esowiki> [[CT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67556 * IFcoltransG * (+31) Redirect to cyclic tag
05:04:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Classical CT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67557 * IFcoltransG * (+180) Created page with "I'm assuming "CT" means Cyclic Tag, rather than, say, Con-Text. Linked to Cyclic Tag. ~~~~"
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05:08:15 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67558&oldid=45098 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Add Concepts category
05:08:52 <esowiki> [[Prefix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67559&oldid=22127 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Add Concepts category
05:09:18 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67560&oldid=58625 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Add Concepts category
05:09:46 <esowiki> [[Anyfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67561&oldid=52179 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Add Concepts category
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05:13:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67562&oldid=47252 * IFcoltransG * (+250) /* American vs British English */
05:13:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67563&oldid=67562 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* American vs British English */ Formatting
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05:45:26 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67564&oldid=66417 * IFcoltransG * (+4) /* Vafix in comparision with a normal infix */ Remove "Edit:"
05:48:16 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67565&oldid=67564 * IFcoltransG * (+19) /* Implementations */ Shebang in code example for disambiguation of language
05:53:10 <esowiki> [[IRP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67566&oldid=58172 * IFcoltransG * (+0) /* Accidental Implementation */ Typo
06:18:49 <imode> building an if/else statement without a conditional break is suddenly difficult.
06:20:05 <zzo38> Building with what?
06:22:32 <imode> really should build a page for this thing.
06:23:52 <zzo38> Yes, make a document so that we can see what it is
06:24:01 <imode> I do have a document. just not posted anywhere live.
06:31:17 <zzo38> Maybe you should post it
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10:28:52 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67567&oldid=52194 * A * (+60)
10:29:22 <esowiki> [[Anyfix notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67568&oldid=67561 * A * (+29)
10:30:14 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67569&oldid=67567 * A * (+138) Add those deleted links back
10:33:12 <esowiki> [[Prefix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67570&oldid=67559 * A * (+108)
10:34:18 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67571&oldid=67560 * A * (+92)
10:34:42 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67572&oldid=67571 * A * (+7)
10:37:16 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67573&oldid=67572 * A * (+176) The person named "Que Asd" is "OVER 9000!!!" years old? That's totally nonsense.
10:38:59 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67574&oldid=67573 * A * (+103) /* Examples */
10:40:14 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67575&oldid=67574 * A * (+127) /* Examples */
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10:43:05 <esowiki> [[Prefix notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67576&oldid=67570 * A * (-3) A single prepended space interferes with code selection.
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11:16:51 <arseniiv> I think bfbot intercepts any post with equals inside? 2 + 2 = 2
11:35:55 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it intercepts any post with colon-equals inside
11:37:19 <bfbot> =help :No such command. Try =help.
11:42:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: re Fire Goats Mountain => heck no, that's likely to be overpowered in some formats.
11:44:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: Threshold of Death seems a bit in danger of being overpowered too. I don't recommend these.
12:50:18 <int-e> By the power of the Black Lotus...
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13:37:54 <esowiki> [[MindReadingFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67577 * Dart * (+1384) Created page with "[[MindReadingFuck]] is a joke esoteric language created by [[User:Dart]] in 2019. It is loosely a [[brainfuck]] derivative. ==Description== MindReadingFuck is very easy to pr..."
13:39:43 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67578&oldid=67109 * Dart * (+22) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ Added my language
13:46:11 <b_jonas> int-e: this may be a good time to advertise our play-by-post Magic: the Gathering game, in which players submit three-card decks. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601011
13:48:53 <int-e> I remember that link. I'm not actively interested in M:tG though.
13:50:23 <b_jonas> yes, I advertised it once already
14:06:03 <arseniiv> not too much interested, I mean
14:08:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67579&oldid=66483 * A * (-313) Try to make a compression algorithm by analyzing the number of every character in a large file
14:09:01 <b_jonas> arseniiv: or you are playing under different names that I don't recognize
14:11:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67580&oldid=67579 * A * (+211) /* Sandbox */
14:11:51 <arseniiv> b_jonas: mmmaybe but why would I, I’m not so many-layered
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14:12:43 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't mean just you specifically, but the "We" that you mentioned
14:12:53 <b_jonas> plus, you might already have an account on that forum and it'd be hard to rename it
14:13:21 <b_jonas> I'm "jonas" in several corners of the internet because it's better to keep a nick that is already known there
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14:38:23 <b_jonas> fungot, how many continents are there on Earth, and how many oceans are there on Earth?
14:38:23 <fungot> b_jonas: the intermediate language for my game
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14:41:28 <LKoen> "how many continents are there?" was a very frustrating question when I was in middle school
14:41:39 <LKoen> I haven't had two geography teachers who agreed on the number
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14:41:53 <LKoen> and of course they made us learn by heart paragraphs that stated that number and other things
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14:43:14 <b_jonas> I was told that there are five. But that's because we only had one geography teacher.
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14:45:39 <LKoen> Oceania / Africa / America / Eurasia / Antarctica?
14:45:51 <int-e> LKoen: how many different answers are there? 3, splitting Eurasia up into Europe, Asia, and optionally India?
14:46:18 <LKoen> well, counting Antarctica or not, separating Europe and Asia or not, separating North and South America or not
14:46:28 <b_jonas> int-e: America can be one or two continents, and the Antarctics may or may not count as a continent
14:46:48 <int-e> Ah. I wasn't sure about America.
14:46:54 <LKoen> of course some of the combinations result in the same number, but agreeing on the number while disagreeing on the actual continents is not very helpful
14:47:00 <int-e> I sucked at goegraphy anyway.
14:47:07 <kingoffrance> all i know is atlas is usually holding a globe up, and atlases are named after him, and he has his own atlantic ocean, but apparently sometimes he shrugs. i suppose one such shrug fractured pangea
14:47:09 <int-e> I always counted Antarctica though.
14:47:37 <int-e> But I learned very late that India's on its own plate.
14:47:53 <LKoen> yeah I never had a teacher tell us to count India as its own continent
14:48:09 <kingoffrance> also, apparently sometimes atlas is really a sequence of turtles
14:48:38 <int-e> Well, we all know it's turtles all the way down.
14:49:00 <LKoen> also they were never very clear about the definition of a continent? I don't think it was related to plates, except for Oceania
14:50:42 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=116759 parodies a certain type of question that perlmonks received at that time (this was before I was on that site), and it has the phrase "It need to do something with states and an alphabet, but I'm not good with geography so really need help!" which always makes me laugh
14:53:18 <kingoffrance> the problem with atlas and a globe is im not sure how the "here be dragons" and other creatures would feel about being wiped out; i theorize at some point atlas beat all the dragons so thats why he gets to hold the globe
14:53:44 <int-e> LKoen: As I recall it, the split of Eurasia was motivated by a historic collision of continental plates in school.
14:54:22 <int-e> But meh, in retrospect it's completely arbitrary.
14:54:50 <b_jonas> int-e: no way. Europe and Asia are separated by cultural history, not by any natural geographic stuff
14:55:15 <int-e> There are the Ural mountains.
14:56:05 <LKoen> b_jonas: everyone knows Europe and Asia are distinct continents because they are separated by the biggest mountains in the world, the Ural
14:56:09 <int-e> Which I guess are less of an obstacle than the huge bodies of water commonly called oceans.
14:56:32 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, we have to draw a boundary somewhere, and since it's hard to cross mountains or seas, Ural and Caucasus are good places to draw a boundary at
15:13:23 <b_jonas> hmm... Ural is the biggest mountain of the world, according to the BBC.
15:13:41 <HackEso> A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
15:13:56 <b_jonas> Ural is the biggest mountain of the world. The BBC invented them.
15:14:08 <HackEso> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
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15:24:08 <b_jonas> wow, the input is indeed /dev/null now
15:24:52 <HackEso> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with webcomics. They invented Taneb.
15:25:50 <int-e> `readlink /proc/self/fd/0
15:26:16 <int-e> (harmless, but curious)
15:30:29 <HackEso> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with webcomics. They invented Taneb. Shamus Young invented them.
15:33:54 <int-e> CI is a key operation in functional analysis.
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16:20:57 <esowiki> [[HackEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67581&oldid=67480 * Fizzie * (+1332) /* Implementation details */ More details on init.
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16:47:32 <arseniiv> there are too many metallic elements, don’t you think?
16:48:18 <arseniiv> though at least many of them do have interesting chemistry despite that
16:58:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no, you only think there are too many of them because many of them are too expensive for you to be familiar with
16:59:48 <arseniiv> b_jonas: many of nonmetals aren’t available to me too, but nonetheless they are minority
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17:05:33 <b_jonas> arseniiv: since many of those metalic elements are useful for alchemy or allomancy or other forms of magic, the Dark Lord collected them and hogged them, and they're now buried underground in dungeons mostly unaccessible to us.
17:07:40 <b_jonas> rhenium turned out to be the most magical, and the One Ring was forged from it.
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17:09:16 <arseniiv> it should be the one, as it’s right at the border
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17:10:41 <arseniiv> and also it has nice oxidative colours
17:10:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the ring is made of a metal that is harder to forge than mithril, for Gandalf says that even the dwarven forges that work with mithril couldn't melt it. only the demonic fire of Mount Doom could melt it, and even that probably only when the Dark Lord's servants fueled it.
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17:11:07 <b_jonas> Bismuth isn't harder to forget than mithril.
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17:13:36 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> Bismuth isn't harder to forget than mithril. => this is a strong argument against it, unfortunately
17:14:07 <arseniiv> though we need to be sure rhenium isn’t filtered out too!
17:19:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: and there's proof other than Gandalf's words. all the other rings of power have a gemstone. the One Ring is unadorned, because you can't embed a gem if you have to forge the ring at such a high temperature that gemstones would burn at, and it would be ugly to add a different metal on it as the gemstone frame.
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17:43:56 <b_jonas> what kind of mustard sauce do you prefer, fungot?
17:43:56 <fungot> b_jonas: more generally, that fnord. fnord sin fnord fnord fnord.
17:44:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NieDzejkob * New user account
17:45:37 <zzo38> Maybe the upkeep cost for Threshold of Death can be changed to cumulative upkeep
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17:48:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67582&oldid=67534 * NieDzejkob * (+158)
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17:52:46 <fungot> kritixilithos: it rains here. :) i don't understand it. but the quality of my tools. you have to
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18:07:27 <fizzie> Some of the models have been trained using a form of smoothing where rare words are assigned to a special <UNK> token; when fungot's generating data from the model, it has to put something there, and it uses "fnord" for that.
18:07:27 <fungot> fizzie: when do you determine which permutation you want to do
18:09:04 <esowiki> [[Initialization]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67583 * NieDzejkob * (+368) IT'S ALIVE!
18:09:49 <esowiki> [[Initialization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67584&oldid=67583 * NieDzejkob * (-1) Improper keyboarding results in links of uncomforable color
18:13:23 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67585&oldid=67578 * NieDzejkob * (+55)
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18:34:57 <esowiki> [[Initialization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67586&oldid=67584 * NieDzejkob * (+273)
19:02:25 <esowiki> [[Initialization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67587&oldid=67586 * NieDzejkob * (-35) Simplify the interpreter
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19:42:14 <HackEso> 1/2:furryscript//FurryScript is the hairiest of all esoteric languages. \ wo//wo is the rarely seen word which "won't" is the opposite of. \ welcome.es//¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Para el otro tipo de esoteri
19:42:19 <HackEso> 2/2:smo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.) \ xml//XML stands for "X-treme Mega Language (of Awesomeness)" \ categorical product//categorical product is like when you have two category elements A and B then their product is element C iff there are two morphisms p:C->A and q:C->B such that for every element X and morphisms u:X->A and v:X->B there is a unique morphism w:X->C such that u=wp and v=wq.
19:43:33 <shachaf> `forget categorical product
19:43:40 <shachaf> HackEso: categorical product
20:04:07 <fungot> b_jonas: so the minimal point is ( fnord 5), etc
20:04:11 <HackEso> 1/1:fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. \ fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. \ fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. \ fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. \ fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
20:04:13 <fungot> b_jonas: how old are you? :) ( aren't i lazy :p) or fnord k 1
20:04:16 <HackEso> 1/166:10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of
20:07:36 <HackEso> /dev/stdin? Permission denied
20:07:50 <HackEso> /nonexistantfile? No such file or directory
20:09:10 <b_jonas> `5 quote fungot | perl -e'@s=<>;print $s[rand@s]'
20:09:10 <fungot> b_jonas: yay for hello bf cookie world where more people wanted to be doing this wall drilling thing for an idiot like me is to say, right?
20:09:12 <HackEso> 1/2:538) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the loathesome lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of our lord jesus christ into your life. \ 632) <fungot> fizzie: is a 98% reduction in the waterpark intensity, right, so i'd ima
20:09:50 <HackEso> 2/2:gine! \ 768) <fungot> olsner: over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax \ 689) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord \ 930) <esomimic> fungot: begrudging pat
20:10:14 <HackEso> 1/2:538) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the loathesome lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of our lord jesus christ into your life. \ 632) <fungot> fizzie: is a 98% reduction in the waterpark intensity, right, so i'd ima
20:10:41 <b_jonas> and it's nonexistent, with an e, darn it!
20:10:54 <HackEso> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance,
20:14:12 <kmc> `` egrep '^[adehijlnorst]{3}$' /usr/share/dict/words
20:14:14 <HackEso> add \ ado \ ads \ aha \ aid \ ail \ air \ ale \ all \ and \ ani \ ant \ are \ art \ ash \ ass \ ate \ dad \ den \ did \ die \ din \ dis \ doe \ don \ dos \ dot \ ear \ eat \ eel \ ell \ end \ eon \ era \ ere \ err \ eta \ had \ hah \ has \ hat \ hen \ her \ hes \ hid \ hie \ his \ hit \ hod \ hoe \ hos \ hot \ ids \ ill \ inn \ ins \ ion \ ire \ its \ jar \ jet \ jot \ lad \ lea \ led \ lee \ lei \ let \ lid \ lie \ lit \ lot \ net \ nil \ nit
20:14:22 <kmc> these are the words my new alphanumeric mechanical padlock can make
20:14:29 <kmc> (counting 0 as O and 1 as I)
20:14:59 <kmc> i wonder how they arrived at that set
20:15:14 <kmc> it has the vowels except U and Y and W
20:15:19 <kmc> (and do Y and W even count)
20:17:45 <kmc> and it has the 5 most common vowels -- shdrl
20:18:00 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne'print "$_ " for /(?<![\-.\x27A-Za-z])([adehijlnorst]{3})(?![\-.\x27A-Za-z])/g' /hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Le*/2+2+3frq.txt
20:18:01 <HackEso> are the and did had has not his she her all her one see its too end let lot old ran set add air art die hit led lie lit sit sat son dad eat ate hid hot oil red ten aah aid ear nod nor sad sea sir tea tie era hah hat ill jet net odd ooh rid til and ash ass dot inn jar lid rat rod shh sin toe ton aha ant den don lad rot tad tan tee tin ail ale hen ion nah oat ore sis sod tar din eel err she her his her hoe jot nil oar tit tot ado eon ere ire loo
20:18:07 <kmc> what the hecking heck
20:18:20 <b_jonas> kmc: ^ use a more respectible dictionary, not /usr/share/dict
20:18:22 <kmc> that is quite a regex
20:19:28 <kmc> are perl regexes turing complete
20:19:30 <kmc> pretty sure they are
20:19:37 <b_jonas> the "j" in that list is weird
20:19:55 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne'print "$_ " for /(?<![\-.\x27A-Za-z])([adehilmnorst]{3})(?![\-.\x27A-Za-z])/g' /hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Le*/2+2+3frq.txt
20:19:55 <HackEso> are the and did had has him not his she her all her one see its man men too end let lot old ran set add air arm art die hit led lie lit met mom mam sit sat son dad eat ate hid hot oil red ten aah aid aim ear hmm mad nod nor sad sea sir tea tie mhm era hah hat ill net odd ooh rid til and ash ass dam dim dot inn lid ram rat rod shh sin toe ton aha ant den don ham lad mat mid rim rot tad tan tee tin ail ale hem hen ion mar nah oat ore sis sod tar
20:19:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is that that your regex you mentioned a month or two ago?
20:20:07 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think so
20:20:45 <b_jonas> it's just your regex with some stuff around it to make sure it's a complete lowercase word
20:21:45 <b_jonas> isn't this one of those padlocks where you press a set of buttons, so words with double letters shouldn't count, and different permutations of letters should count only once?
20:22:31 <kmc> it has a single spinning dial
20:22:38 <kmc> like a standard 'school locker padlock'
20:22:42 <kmc> (at least in America)
20:22:55 <kmc> the only difference is that it's labeled with digits and some letters rather than consecutive integers up to 40 or whatever
20:23:00 <kmc> well and it also has detents for each
20:23:04 <kmc> standard padlocks spin smoothly
20:23:17 <kmc> I have one of those too but I forgot the combo and my attempt to crack it using some online guide failed
20:23:34 <kmc> you can take it to a shop and get the combo from a serial number but that sounded like effort when I could get a new one for $10 in 2 minutes
20:23:39 <kmc> but then i didn't need it anyway, oops
20:26:24 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne'for (/(?<![\-.\x27A-Za-z])([adehijlnorst]{3,})(?![\-.\x27A-Za-z])/g) { %k=(); $k{$_}++ for sort split//,$_; @k=keys%k; if (3 == @k && !$k{join"",@k}++) { print "$_ " } }' /hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Le*/2+2+3frq.txt
20:26:25 <HackEso> are the and that had has hath not his she her her one seen here its need needed tell end let lot old ran set added air area art die door else hit led less lie lit sell sense sit sat son soon test data dead eat ate hell hid hot loss oil red roll ten tree aid ear hall hill nine nod none nor onto rare root sad sea sir tall tea tie tool assess ease era error hat jet net onion rear rid seed seeded till til tooth teeth toss and ash deer doll dot hee
20:26:48 <b_jonas> kmc: ah, so you don't depress 3 out of 12 buttons with the order irrelevant. sorry
20:27:47 <b_jonas> oh, you want to find out the code, which need not even be a word?
20:28:03 <kmc> that one is a standard numeric lock
20:28:21 <kmc> the code is 3 integers between 0 and 39 inclusive, order dependent
20:28:31 <kmc> though I'm not sure you can use the same number twice in a row
20:28:35 <b_jonas> that command isn't right, it doesn't filter duplicates
20:28:56 <kmc> all american kids use this in high school
20:28:59 <kmc> or did back in my day
20:29:26 <fizzie> kmc: Yeah, I've seen those on TV, but never in real life.
20:29:30 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne'for (/(?<![\-.\x27A-Za-z])([adehijlnorst]{3,})(?![\-.\x27A-Za-z])/g) { %k=(); $k{$_}++ for split//,$_; @k=sort keys%k; if (3 == @k && !$r{join"",@k}++) { print "$_ " } }' /hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Le*/2+2+3frq.txt
20:29:31 <HackEso> are the and that had has not his she her one seen its need tell lot old ran set added air art die door else hit led lie lit sat son data eat hell hid hot loss oil red roll ten tree aid hall hill nine nod nor root sad sea sir tall tie error jet onion rid seed toss dot horror jar lid odds roar sin toe ant hood lad radar reel tattoo tin ail alas ale eerie heed hen nah anal din hoe jot nil sill ado jeer loon ode seer shoo dis nth anon jell jinn hi
20:29:36 <b_jonas> this. no more "need needed"
20:29:48 <fizzie> We just had physical Abloy keys for any place there's lockers.
20:29:49 <kmc> now they probably have some unnecessarily smart bluetooth lock with a backdoor so the school admin can break in to see if you're hiding ~dangerous items~
20:30:33 <kmc> the venue I bought my combo lock for turned out to have RFID locks instead
20:30:40 <kmc> so they give you a wristband with a chip in it, which unlocks the locker
20:31:05 <kmc> in college we had an interesting style of door locks
20:31:07 <kmc> forgot the brand
20:31:12 <fizzie> kmc: Does the starting number matter for those locks? That is, is 0-20-10 a different code from 1-21-11?
20:31:17 <b_jonas> `python3 -cimport secrets; print("".join([secrets.choice("adehijlnorst") for k in range(3)]))
20:31:46 <kmc> it has 5 buttons, and each code unit is a cluster of one or more buttons (pressed simultaneously), but you can only use each button once in the whole code
20:31:55 <kmc> so e.g. 15-2-3 is different from 1-5-23
20:32:02 <zzo38> If you do not want them to break in to your stuff then install a safe inside of the locker and put all of the stuff in there.
20:32:39 <kmc> people practiced "power punching" which was the technique of trying all combos in some maximum-likelihood order
20:34:17 <zzo38> I think I have read about those locks with 5 buttons, from a 2600 article I think. They mention how it isn't so secure as a key, you can easily try them, and there are also "half step" codes.
20:36:42 <kmc> if you practiced you could do it in like 15 minutes
20:36:46 <kmc> all the combos i mean
20:36:54 <kmc> and your expected time would be half that, even without the likelihood ordering
20:37:10 <kmc> one of the houses there was known for heavy drinking and they set their door code to "2" so that it could be remembered in a state of inebriation
20:37:41 <kmc> I was glad to be in a house (actually, two) that had a more varied culture including more interesting intoxicants as well as other fun stuff
20:42:53 <kmc> first year housemates were really into lockpicking, making master keys, tunnel exploration and that kind of fun stuff
20:43:11 <kmc> zzo38: the combo locks also have an override key you can use
20:43:16 <kmc> and I made one of those
20:43:21 <kmc> so technically i could break into anyone's room
20:43:27 <kmc> we had a game called Alley Assassins
20:45:19 <kmc> people signed up as targets and others would try to get them with a 'bomb', which is any device that makes a noise or flashing light etc. in direct response to the target's actions (no remote-controlled bombs)
20:45:40 <kmc> I got someone by planting a cellphone in their room and then setting up a trigger on my computer which would text the phone when they logged onto AIM
20:46:08 <kmc> the judges decided this was a bit ambiguous under the rules but decided I deserved the kill anyway on style points
20:47:27 <kmc> it was remote-controlled but in a way that didn't require any action by anyone besides the target
20:48:00 <kmc> in those days you could text a phone by emailing a numeric address @ the phone company's domain
20:48:03 <kmc> i don't know if that's still true
20:50:42 <kmc> I use twilio API for that
20:50:56 <imode> everybody seems to use that.
20:51:16 <kmc> it's pretty easy
20:51:18 <imode> it makes sense because there's no reasonable way to decide which number belongs to which carrier, I think.
20:51:22 <kmc> you can do it from a shell script with curl
20:51:30 <kmc> I've ported my number between at least 3 carriers
20:51:37 <imode> is there a number -> carrier mapping somewhere?
20:51:39 <kmc> I bet phone companies can do it, because they need to know who to bill
20:51:44 <kmc> but I don't think random people can do it
20:54:04 <imode> https://www.carrierlookup.com/
21:56:30 <fizzie> I used the trial thing of https://www.datasoap.co.uk/data-quality-services/hlr-lookup once to look up the operator a number was on.
21:56:54 <fizzie> There's a really flaky SMS delivery situation between our UK operator (Three) and some (but not all) Finnish operators.
21:57:14 <fizzie> Also between my Finnish bank and Three, and nobody's taking any responsibility of it.
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21:59:01 <fizzie> (For "security" reasons the bank's getting ever more strict on mandating SMS-based verification on top of the existing one-time passcode lists.)
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22:02:38 <kmc> got some pills today
22:02:40 <kmc> girl pills
22:02:43 <kmc> `quote 1097
22:02:43 <HackEso> 1097) <kmc> BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills' <kmc> oh, they mean for your health
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00:09:58 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67588&oldid=67575 * IFcoltransG * (+372) /* Uses of surround notation */ Replaced placeholder
00:15:05 <esowiki> [[LISP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67589 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Redirects to Lisp (which doesn't exist yet)
00:19:24 <esowiki> [[Prefix notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67590&oldid=67576 * IFcoltransG * (+112) /* Examples */ Mentions that last line is M-exprs
00:21:56 <esowiki> [[Anyfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67591&oldid=67568 * IFcoltransG * (+51) Links to other notations
00:25:25 <esowiki> [[Infix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67592&oldid=22125 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Added Concepts category
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01:30:46 <fizzie> Hm, I wonder if it would be in the spirit of HackEso to implement networking support using UML's "daemon" mode (writes Ethernet packets to a Unix domain datagram socket, intended to be used with uml_switch to connect several UMLs together), except connect it to a custom process that'd fake the basics (ARP, DNS) and then act as a transparent HTTP proxy for whitelisted requests + with some resource limits.
01:30:49 <esowiki> [[Nary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67593&oldid=44905 * IFcoltransG * (+0) /* Syntax */ Typo
01:31:03 <fizzie> Thing is, it'd need a userland IP and TCP implementations for that. The much easier way would be just use the "tuntap" mode and let the kernel handle the IP and TCP, but then it needs special privileges to set up. One of the cool bits about umlbox is that it doesn't need any of that.
01:31:30 <fizzie> (Of course the existing umlbox-mudem approach is always a possiblity; that provides TCP port forwarding muxed over a fake serial line. But then all apps need to connect to localhost:N; with the other approaches the thing can be entirely transparent, which is cool.)
01:37:15 <esowiki> [[Arity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67594 * IFcoltransG * (+3811) Created page with "'''Arity''' refers to the number of parameters that can be passed to a function, procedure or other operation. The most common arities are 0, 1, 2 and a variable arity. == Exa..."
01:37:49 <esowiki> [[Arity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67595&oldid=67594 * IFcoltransG * (+2) /* = In esolangs */ Forgot a formatting `=` sign
01:42:56 <zzo38> I don't know if you might want to also whitelist some non-HTTP stuff too
01:45:06 <zzo38> And even for HTTP(S), decide which white lists to include
01:47:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: you don't have to fake a normal TCP/IP implementation. You can just have custom commands that ask the demon outside to do whatever restricted request you want, whcih could be HTTP requests or anything else, even more complicated combinations.
01:48:19 <b_jonas> Oh, you want a transparent proxy? Yes, that could be harder.
01:48:44 <b_jonas> Whether it's in spirit or not, I don't know.
01:51:02 <esowiki> [[Church-Turing thesis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67596&oldid=46006 * IFcoltransG * (+294) Expanded by a sentence, and replaced last paragraph with more rigorous one
01:51:04 <fizzie> It's a matter of style, really. I'd prefer if the "business logic" stayed inside the HackEso (and was editable by everyone), and the thing outside was pretty dumb, except for the practical requirement of needing enough smarts to restrict what can be done.
01:51:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Church-Turing thesis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67597&oldid=23584 * IFcoltransG * (+136)
02:05:37 <esowiki> [[Imperial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67598&oldid=67542 * IFcoltransG * (+9) + {{stub}}
02:07:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Imperial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67599 * IFcoltransG * (+381) Created page with "I'm going to be honest, I don't know when I'll get around to finishing this. If you're here because you wanted to check if the name Imperial was taken, and this is 2021 or som..."
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02:14:22 <esowiki> [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67600&oldid=65108 * IFcoltransG * (-22) Doesn't really belong in Category:Concepts. Excised from it.
02:17:21 <esowiki> [[Swissen Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67601&oldid=65011 * IFcoltransG * (-1) /* Language Implementation */ Typo
02:22:47 <oerjan> @tell arseniiv <arseniiv> b_jonas: why? <-- probably because it wants to match on = at the beginning of an irc message text, and := is what that looks like in the irc line, it just fails to adapt for when there is := elsewhere
02:22:47 <bfbot> @tell arseniiv <arseniiv> b_jonas: why? <-- probably because it wants to match on = at the beginning of an irc message text, and := is what that looks like in the irc line, it just fails to adapt for when there is :No such command. Try =help.
02:23:06 <oerjan> still not fixed, i see :P
02:24:12 <oerjan> @tell arseniiv *irc protocol line
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02:29:13 <oerjan> the way ufu is acting overconfident, he better hope the schlock mercenary universe isn't big on cosmic irony. (it might not, given petey seems to get away with such stuff most of the time.)
02:31:11 <oerjan> then again, there's that other oafan who keeps being wrong
02:32:57 <bfbot> testing ho :No such command. Try =help.
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02:33:10 <bfbot> No such command. Try =help.
02:33:39 <oerjan> testing ho := hum hi := mwa ha
02:33:39 <bfbot> testing ho := hum hi :No such command. Try =help.
02:34:06 <fizzie> Some sort of greedy match comes to mind.
02:34:08 <oerjan> it's unclear to me why it prints the part in between
02:34:59 <oerjan> maybe it's interpreting what's before as part of the channel name and therefore prints it
02:35:41 <oerjan> well channel name and following " :"
02:36:11 <oerjan> i suppose it might be including the PRIVMSG part too
02:38:27 <fizzie> Bots should be open-sourced by default to avoid the guesswork. Although I guess that'd be spoilers.
02:40:17 <oerjan> what about := this then
02:40:27 <oerjan> hm it doesn't react to notice
02:40:36 <oerjan> it's not quite _that_ stupid :P
02:42:11 <fizzie> =echo <CTCP>ACTION knows CTCP<CTCP>
02:42:11 <bfbot> .ACTION knows CTCP.
02:44:57 <fizzie> I guess we've got that +C mode anyway.
02:46:06 <bfbot> <CTCP>ACTION does :No such command. Try =help.
02:46:31 <oerjan> huh that wasn't censored
02:46:56 <oerjan> the extra part printed before : doesn't go through the dotting
02:47:48 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, if I say :a!b@c PRIVMSG #esoteric := does it copy the whole thing or just the end thing?
02:47:49 <bfbot> No such command. Try =help.
02:48:14 <fizzie> How about if I say :a!b@c PRIVMSG fizzie := instead.
02:49:26 <fizzie> How about if I say :a!b@c PRIVMSG #esoteric-blah := then?
02:49:44 <oerjan> darn i was just about to try
02:49:48 <fizzie> But just because the bot's already on that channel, and most channels are +n.
02:51:00 <fizzie> What about :a!b@c PRIVMSG #gnjksdfgsdfg := which is a non-+n channel the bot isn't on?
02:51:29 <fizzie> So it's not specifically the channels it's on, but it's specifically channels.
02:52:37 <fizzie> Maybe it's using something like (PRIVMSG #.*):=(.*) to match, and then some equivalent of $1:$(eval $2) to reply.
02:52:37 <bfbot> No such command. Try =help.
02:52:58 <fizzie> Uh, I'm not sure what happened there though.
02:54:14 <oerjan> testing #ho hum:= maybe
02:54:15 <bfbot> No such command. Try =help.
02:54:55 <oerjan> testing #ho hum:= maybe := so
02:55:13 <oerjan> that got no answer. maybe it sent something to #ho
02:55:35 <fizzie> You should test with #esoteric-blah hum:= maybe := so or some-such.
02:55:42 <fizzie> (Nothing on #esoteric-blah though.)
02:56:13 <oerjan> what about #esoteric := like this
02:56:13 <bfbot> what about #esoteric :No such command. Try =help.
02:56:31 <oerjan> ok it needs the PRIVMSG
03:04:48 <j-bot> oerjan: testing := echo hi
03:04:48 <bfbot> :oerjan: testing hi
03:05:38 <oerjan> huh suddenly spouting extra :
03:05:48 <oerjan> oerjan: testing := echo hi
03:05:48 <bfbot> :oerjan: testing hi
03:07:15 <oerjan> and oerjan: testing := echo hi
03:07:16 <bfbot> :and oerjan: testing hi
03:07:26 <oerjan> and oerjan testing := echo hi
03:07:26 <bfbot> :and oerjan testing hi
03:07:44 <oerjan> oerjan: testing :=echo hi
03:07:45 <bfbot> :oerjan: testing hi
03:08:11 <oerjan> did it do that yesterday
03:08:38 <oerjan> maybe kspalaiologos did some change that didn't fix it
03:31:40 <oerjan> testing more :=echo hi
03:59:14 <zzo38> I don't know much of how UML is working, although I think some time ago I read about some program called Subterfugue which you can override any system calls how you want it to, but I have been unable to find it recently.
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04:56:06 <oerjan> PRIVMSG testing more :=echo hi
04:56:20 <oerjan> wow i got a private message out of that
04:57:02 <oerjan> PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo hi
04:57:09 <oerjan> [ PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo hi
04:57:10 <j-bot> oerjan: PRIVMSG # esoteric := echo hi
04:57:27 <oerjan> [ "PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo hi"
04:57:28 <j-bot> oerjan: |syntax error
04:57:28 <j-bot> oerjan: | "PRIVMSG#esoteric :=echo hi"
04:57:28 <bfbot> :oerjan: | "PRIVMSG#esoteric hi"
04:57:37 <oerjan> [ 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo hi'
04:57:37 <j-bot> oerjan: PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo hi
04:59:42 <oerjan> this is the point where i should actually have known J
04:59:47 <j-bot> oerjan: |domain error
05:00:52 <j-bot> oerjan: |syntax error
05:01:02 <j-bot> oerjan: |domain error
05:01:02 <j-bot> oerjan: | 'a' +'b'
05:02:30 <oerjan> [ 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo [ 1'
05:02:31 <j-bot> oerjan: PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo [ 1
05:02:31 <j-bot> bfbot: |open quote
05:02:53 <oerjan> oh i c it has flood protection
05:03:15 <oerjan> just as well i found out before constructing the whole thing
05:05:18 <oerjan> i guess there are no obvious unprotected botloops, then
05:07:50 <oerjan> HackEso could trigger it, but not respond
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05:10:10 <oerjan> =echo lambdabot: @run 1
05:10:43 <oerjan> ...i suppose someone already tested that
05:16:54 <zzo38> If it can be programmed to detect a possible bot loop then it could use NOTICE rather than PRIVMSG in the case where a bot loop is suspected, since that would prevent it, I think. (Assuming the bot is correctly programmed; if it isn't then it won't work but then maybe the improperly programmed bot should be kicked; once the programmer corrects it then they will rejoin)
05:23:55 <zzo38> Is the organization ID 36#UUID (1439221) for PostScript XUID in use?
05:24:56 <oerjan> zzo38: bfbot is improperly programmed but all the other bots seem to be immune to it
05:25:22 <oerjan> so we're letting it be while waiting for kspalaiologos to fix it.
05:25:50 <oerjan> ( HackEso wasn't immune until yesterday. )
05:32:47 <zzo38> (I would guess that the numbers which are in use are much smaller than that, but I don't know. I do know that registration is no longer possible, because they no longer recommend using XUID.)
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07:35:16 <oerjan> dr. rakethorn should know better than uttering the words "No trouble at all."
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08:28:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: you could put a sleep into the J statement so it doesn't get flooded
08:32:59 <b_jonas> [ 'please sleep 10 seconds then print this string'[6!:3]10
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08:33:15 <b_jonas> [ 'please sleep 6 seconds then print this string'[6!:3]6
08:33:25 <b_jonas> [ 'please sleep 4 seconds then print this string'[6!:3]4
08:33:38 <b_jonas> [ 'please sleep 2 seconds then print this string'[6!:3]2
08:33:41 <j-bot> b_jonas: please sleep 2 seconds then print this string
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08:41:42 <zzo38> I don't know if maybe some of the filters in my Farbfeld Utilities which I have not seen in other programs, might be included in Mathematica, such as the tensor product of two pictures.
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08:55:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh i didn't think that J might have a sleep function
08:56:33 <oerjan> zzo38: girl genius character
08:58:10 <fungot> oerjan: subtract ze two and ye have daylight hours? those people are nerds!
08:58:47 <oerjan> j-bot's insistence on putting the nick means it can only trigger bfbot
08:59:41 <oerjan> maybe bfbot could do the sleep
08:59:54 <bfbot> bfbot is a bot executing brainfuck natively. You may add your very own commands to the bot.
08:59:54 <bfbot> Commands: =str =def =undef =list =plist =doc. More help at https://esolangs.org/wiki/bfbot
09:00:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: even if there's no sleep function, you can just make a busy loop
09:00:07 <bfbot> bfbot is a bot executing brainfuck natively. You may add your very own commands to the bot.
09:00:07 <bfbot> Commands: =str =def =undef =list =plist =doc. More help at https://esolangs.org/wiki/bfbot
09:01:12 <oerjan> yeah but bfbot might work too
09:02:28 <b_jonas> it might, I don't know how brainfuck it's willing to run a brainfuck loop
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09:13:01 <FireFly> fun li'l bug with the raw PRIVMSGs
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10:24:39 <wib_jonas> =def 1str ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:24:39 <bfbot> Error: Name can contain only lowercase letters and digits.
10:24:48 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:24:53 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:27:07 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]>>>>>>>>>> ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:27:12 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:27:34 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:27:37 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:27:49 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:27:52 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:28:05 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:28:45 <wib_jonas> how do you write a proper delay loop in brainfuck?
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10:30:46 <myname> what do you mean by a delay loop
10:31:22 <wib_jonas> just want to get close to bfbot timing out the program and see how long it takes in real time
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10:48:41 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:48:57 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:49:05 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++[->++[->++[->++[->++.<]<]<]<]
10:49:07 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:49:21 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++[->++[->++[->++[->++[->++.<]<]<]<]<]
10:49:24 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:49:26 <bfbot> .............. "$&(*,.02468:<>@
10:50:05 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++[->++++[->++++[->++++[->++++[->++++.<]<]<]<]<]
10:50:07 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:50:09 <bfbot> ....... $(,048<@DHLPTX\`dhlptx|.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
10:50:22 <wib_jonas> then this should work, and either I made a typo or it was too short
10:51:57 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:52:03 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:52:29 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:52:32 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:52:47 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:52:50 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:53:16 <oerjan> ^bf >->->>>>-->-[--<<[-<]+>++[-->++]-->++],[.,]!test
10:53:23 <oerjan> ^bf >->->>>>>>>>-->-[--<<[-<]+>++[-->++]-->++],[.,]!test
10:53:30 <oerjan> ^bf >->->>>>>>>>>>>>-->-[--<<[-<]+>++[-->++]-->++],[.,]!test
10:53:35 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:53:36 <oerjan> ^bf >->->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-->-[--<<[-<]+>++[-->++]-->++],[.,]!test
10:53:39 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:53:43 <oerjan> ^bf >->->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-->-[--<<[-<]+>++[-->++]-->++],[.,]!test
10:53:51 <oerjan> there you go, a binary counter
10:54:08 <wib_jonas> =str 1s+++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:54:10 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:55:05 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:55:08 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:55:27 <wib_jonas> =str 1s++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++.[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:55:29 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:55:36 <Lykaina> spamming the channel with brainfuck?
10:56:21 <wib_jonas> =str 1s+[->++++++++[->++++++++.[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
10:56:24 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
10:56:35 <fizzie> Maybe #esoteric-blah for the intermediate stages and #esoteric for the final results?
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11:17:05 <wib_jonas> bfbot sources: https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/bfbot-repository
11:18:29 <oerjan> ^bf >->>>>>>>>>>>>-->-[<<[-<]+>++[-->++]-->],[.,]!test
11:18:57 <oerjan> simplified the binary idle loop a bit. alas the timeout of bfbot seems to be too small to work for this
11:18:58 <bfbot> a:oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :simplified the binary idle loop a bit. alas the timeout of bfbot seems to be too small to work for this
11:19:49 <wib_jonas> nope, apparently that's not the sources, just the user-defined commands
11:19:50 <bfbot> :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, apparently that's not the sources, just the user-defined commands
11:20:14 <oerjan> kritixilithos: i suspect one of your experiments in #esoteric-blah --- yeah
11:20:15 <bfbot> :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: i suspect one of your experiments in #esoteric-blah --- yeah
11:20:48 <bfbot> :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a cr and an lf
11:21:02 <oerjan> (to demonstrate it here)
11:21:26 <oerjan> wib_jonas: we already knew it didn't treat backslashes right
11:21:49 <oerjan> @tell kspalaiologos Your bot has even more trouble, try =echo \
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11:46:05 <wib_jonas> =str 0s++++++++[->+++++++++<]>+.+.+.
11:46:09 <bfbot> ok, defined 'quine'
11:46:33 <wib_jonas> if the following loops, please stop it with: =def 0quine
11:46:41 <wib_jonas> =str 1s ++++++++++++++++[->+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<<<<] >>>++++++++++.>>.++.<+++++++++.>++++.<++++.>---.<------.<<.+++.>>>>+++++.>+++.<++++++++++.>+.<----------.>--.<++++.------.<<<<+++++++++.>>>>-.++++.----.+++++++++++++.>++.<<<<<------------.>.+++.>>>>---.++++.<------.+++++.---------.
11:47:09 <bfbot> ok, defined 'quine'
11:47:15 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:25 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:27 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:28 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:29 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:32 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:32 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:34 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:35 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:37 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:39 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:40 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:42 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:44 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:44 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:46 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:47 <bfbot> :PRIVMSG #esoteric,bfbot :=quine
11:47:48 <bfbot> ok, defined 'quine'
12:42:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: it's a new bug. apparently bfbot matches not only the latest := in the line, but also the latest :PRIVMSG , so you can make it think that the channel is #esoteric,bfbot and then it sends its reply there
12:42:53 <wib_jonas> there's also a different bug in bfbot about messages that end with a backslash, but that's not used here
12:47:57 <wib_jonas> https://adventofcode.com/2019/about simple programming puzzles in case you want to solve something
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13:30:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Komikaabi * New user account
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13:34:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67602&oldid=67582 * Komikaabi * (+192)
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13:57:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Initialization]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67603 * A * (+582) Created page with "== Inconsistencies in the description and sample programs == Based on the second example, I can see that there is parameter passing for a (probably-is) function: <pre> factori..."
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14:41:05 <wib_jonas> did kspalaiologos just get scared of us?
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15:16:42 <ais523> somehow I'd expect bfbot to have fewer bugs if it were actually written in BF
15:17:09 <ais523> that unescaped-backslash thing is really worrying, it makes me think that there may be a security exploit in there somewhere
15:17:21 <ais523> OK, at least it isn't a shell-escaping issue
15:17:33 <bfbot> $(hostname) :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
15:17:44 <ais523> what sort of escaping is that?
15:18:36 <ais523> it doesn't seem to escape anything but newlines and itself?
15:19:21 <bfbot> test \:ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :test
15:19:42 <ais523> I can't offhand think of an escaping mechanism that works like that
15:19:53 <ais523> or, hmm, do Makefiles escape like that?
15:19:56 <HackEso> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
15:20:50 <ais523> `` printf 'all:\n\techo a b \\a \\b c d\\\n\te f' > Makefile
15:20:54 <HackEso> echo a b \a \b c d\ \ e f \ a b a b c de f
15:21:16 <HackEso> all: \ echo a b \a \b c d\ \ e f
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15:21:54 <ais523> OK, so Makefiles don't quite escape like that because they don't swallow the backslashes
15:22:12 <ais523> (the backslashes mid-line, that is)
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15:26:16 <wib_jonas> ais523: q strings in perl, sort of
15:32:27 <kmc> make love not files
15:33:10 <FireFly> it certainly exhibits some fascinatng behaviour, between those two bugs
15:34:40 <ais523> was the :=echo bug fixed yet?
15:34:41 <bfbot> :was the bug fixed yet?
15:34:42 <wib_jonas> FireFly: three bugs, the way I count
15:34:58 <ais523> actually I don't get where the leading : comes from when that bug is used
15:35:02 <wib_jonas> FireFly: finds := anywhere in the line, finds :PRIVMSG anywhere in the line, and mangles backslashes in the input
15:35:03 <bfbot> FireFly: finds := anywhere in the line, finds :No such command. Try =help.
15:35:36 <wib_jonas> ais523: the part before the " :=echo" is taken as a channel name
15:35:36 <bfbot> ais523: the part before the " :No such command. Try =help.
15:35:57 <wib_jonas> =def +++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
15:35:58 <bfbot> Error: Expected a number.
15:36:01 <wib_jonas> =str 1s+++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+.+.
15:36:05 <bfbot> ok, defined 'msg1'
15:36:59 <wib_jonas> but then how does :PRIVMSG #esoteric-blah,#esoteric :=echo foo work?
15:37:45 <FireFly> I think it's because it expects "PRIVMSG foo :=echo bar", strips the :=echo and prepends a new : for the PRIVMSG reply
15:38:01 <wib_jonas> prefix :PRIVMSG #esoteric-blah,#esoteric extra arguments that the irc will ignore :this will be part of the reply message :=msg1 argument
15:38:49 <wib_jonas> FireFly: yes, that part is correct, that's because if you send a PRIVMSG to bfbot, it has to PRIVMSG you back
15:39:43 <FireFly> ye, but it expects that it's replacing the :=echo with :, but really it's removing another :=echo and the prepending with : thus leads to a double :
15:39:43 <bfbot> :ye, but it expects that it's replacing the :=echo with :, but really it's removing another :=echo and the prepending with : thus leads to a double and the prepending with : thus leads to a double :
15:39:51 <FireFly> which is why it echoes back, I think
15:40:12 <wib_jonas> prefix :PRIVMSG #esoteric-blah,#esoteric nonsense :prefix :=eecchhoo argument
15:40:12 <bfbot> nnoonnsseennssee ::pprreeffiixx aarrgguummeenntt
15:40:41 <wib_jonas> it looks like the part between the channel and the command is part of the input
15:41:13 <FireFly> oh is eecchhoo an actual command?
15:41:28 <wib_jonas> I defined it to print each character twice
15:41:31 <FireFly> I was very confused for a moment
15:41:50 <bfbot> ok, defined 'edcbhgon'
15:42:04 <bfbot> ok, defined 'edcbhgon'
15:42:19 <wib_jonas> prefix :PRIVMSG #esoteric-blah,#esoteric nonsense :prefix :=edcbhon argument
15:42:59 <bfbot> No such command. Try =help.
15:43:10 <bfbot> ok, defined 'edcbhgon'
15:43:26 <bfbot> ok, defined 'efcdhiop'
15:43:33 <wib_jonas> prefix :PRIVMSG #esoteric-blah,#esoteric nonsense :prefix :=efcdhiop argument
15:43:34 <bfbot> noopnostefnostef !:;pqrseffgijxy !abrsghuvmnefnotu.
15:44:12 <bfbot> ok, defined 'edcbhgon'
15:44:26 <wib_jonas> prefix :PRIVMSG #esoteric-blah,#esoteric nonsense :prefix :=edcbhgon argument
15:44:27 <bfbot> nmonnmsrednmsred .:9porqedfeihxw .a`rqgfutmlednmts.
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15:51:19 <bfbot> Error: Expected a number.
15:51:40 <FireFly> can I do a define in a single line?
15:52:51 <FireFly> do we know of the str slots are namespaced per user? or would I mess with others' expeirments if I play with it?
15:53:45 <wib_jonas> I suspect they aren't namespaced, but there are ten of them so you can just choose two numbers that we aren't using
15:54:01 <wib_jonas> and the str slots are temporary, they only matter until you define a command from them
15:54:52 <wib_jonas> the str slots are just there so you can define commands whose brainfuck source doesn't fit in a single irc message
15:55:37 <FireFly> I wonder if any of these bugs (like the backspace one) interact in any way with the persisting of commands
15:55:42 <wib_jonas> apparently the bot is optimized for commands more interesting than echo, in which case the source is likely almost always large
15:56:14 <wib_jonas> I don't know, you'll have to check https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/bfbot-repository/tree/master/BRAINFUCKBOT_COMMANDS for that
15:56:44 <FireFly> not messing too much atm from phone, but it'd be interesting to try
15:57:20 <FireFly> also with the doc command as well
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16:02:16 <bfbot> Error: Invalid entry name.
16:03:19 <wib_jonas> fungot, the Giant promised an OotS strip for today, please post it
16:03:19 <fungot> wib_jonas: unless it's some crazy thick ethernet and/ or xscheme.el. kill the `*scheme*' buffer? i mea, the 10 items limit is annoying, though
16:03:51 <wib_jonas> FireFly: apparently fungot agrees with you about the 10 slots
16:03:51 <fungot> wib_jonas: or someone did use ga for icfp? :) htmlprag?
16:04:27 <HackEso> olist 1188: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:04:35 <fungot> wib_jonas: i've got this lego-based language sorted, i think i've seen it, but i
16:05:01 <ais523> wib_jonas: that's an old OOTS comic
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16:05:13 <ais523> as in, I saw it a few days ago
16:05:17 <ais523> did we really forget to olist it?
16:06:03 <wib_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-11.html#liEd
16:06:27 <ais523> the next one is due today, IIRC (it's a rare situation in which the date is listed in advance)
16:06:56 <wib_jonas> yes, that's what I said above to fungоt
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16:22:40 <Sgeo> I bought a Switch. I kind of hate how closed off it is. I think I'll only use it for exclusive and/or non-PC games.
16:22:54 <Sgeo> Which Pokemon game would be good for someone who hasn't played the main series before?
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16:40:13 <HackEso> olist 1189: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:42:10 <FireFly> It's a pity the ecosystem is closed and stuff, yeah
16:43:02 <FireFly> I like the hardware/controls and portability
16:43:35 <Sgeo> I sort of like the portability in that if my living situation changes, I might not bother to buy a TV, but for now the portability isn't so needed
16:47:35 <kmc> I really like having a projector and this is one of the reasons
16:47:47 <kmc> it's a nice, small, bright, LED-lit, full HD one
16:57:05 <Sgeo> Nintendo seems a bit... evil in some ways, regarding how strictly they enforce copyright, incl. takedowns of videos (just saw Andi's tweets)
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18:59:24 <FireFly> kmc: yeah, I was thinking the other night how I'm likely to opt for a decent projector over a TV.. being able to use the projected-at surface for other things is a nice feature too
19:00:34 <FireFly> tbh with the Switch I like playing in portable mode anyhow, I don't really use the dock so far
19:01:17 <kmc> FireFly: yeah
19:01:25 <kmc> I don't like having a huge TV in my living room staring at me
19:01:29 <kmc> a void in the room
19:01:41 <kmc> the projector sits on a bookshelf and is barely noticable when off
19:01:52 <kmc> we have one wall that's good for projection
19:02:09 <kmc> and my projector is bright enugh (plus surface close enough) that it's usable during the day with the regular blinds drawn, no blackout curtains needed
19:02:17 <kmc> it was pretty spendy but very worth it
19:02:22 <kmc> aside from that the home theater setup is cheap
19:02:32 <kmc> a pair of computer speakers on the projection wall
19:02:42 <kmc> I don't need super high fidelity sound or surround sound
19:02:50 <kmc> and a small form factor windows computer
19:04:38 <j4cbo> that’s what I did in college
19:05:20 <j4cbo> but we didn’t project on a wall, we got a super cheap 4x8 whiteboard thing
19:06:37 <kmc> was that shiny?
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20:03:05 <esowiki> [[$]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67604&oldid=66011 * Dart * (-912)
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20:14:13 <shachaf> kmc: I got a second bookcase and ordered a couch. It's going to be great.
20:14:40 <shachaf> I had so many books on the floor and table that as soon as I got the second bookcase together I filled it completely.
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20:42:14 <zzo38> I would want a 4:3 TV set with the full controls on the panel on the right, like many old TV set. But also some stuff of new TV set, and some which I have not seen anywhere, too.
20:55:05 <kmc> shachaf: ceiling projector sounds like too much effort
20:55:22 <kmc> putting ours in a little Ikea book cubby has been really effective
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21:08:30 <b_jonas> PRIVMSG #esoteric,#esoteric-blah :=echo Goodbye, cruel world
21:08:30 <bfbot> Goodbye, cruel world
21:08:37 -!- bfbot has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:09:42 <b_jonas> @tell kspalaiologos I am holding the irc nick bfbot ransommed. Fix the serious bugs in your bot and you're getting it back.
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21:55:13 <fizzie> Why is it that escalators often have that green glow under the steps? Is it because of the eldritch energies powering them?
21:59:11 <zzo38> They put Christmas lights, because it is Christmas.
22:13:59 <kingoffrance> no, i take inanimate computer code hostage all the time
22:15:14 <kingoffrance> i call it a "prize"; on land it is called "booty"; you might have a better term
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23:48:08 <imode-ruby> b_jonas: wtf, does his bot actually just accept commands from anybody?
23:50:53 <fizzie> That's what bots typically do. It's just that there's a bug that can make it send arbitrary messages to arbitrary destinations, not just reply on the channel the command was posted on.
23:52:48 <arseniiv_> raindrops on kittens and whiskers on roses…
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23:56:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: that, and also it accepts too many things as commands, and so can get into loops too easily
23:58:06 <b_jonas> imode-ruby: yes, like fizzie says, HackEso, lambdabot and fungоt also accept commands from basically anybody
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00:05:23 <imode-ruby> sorry, should've clarified what I meant by "commands". bot commands are fine. controlling the bot via PRIVMSG is.. not fine.
00:08:54 <fizzie> AIUI, it wasn't really a matter of controlling the bot through any sort of intended control commands, more tricking it into messaging things to NickServ.
00:09:23 <imode-ruby> mhm. if you can PRIVMSG anything, you can hijack it.
00:17:59 <b_jonas> FireFly: sorry, you said you wanted to experiment with the bot later, but now you can't
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00:36:34 <fizzie> BT has this thing called "InLinkUK", it's like a digital advertising sign they've installed on sidewalks + free wifi access point + some sort of tablet you can use in kiosk mode for "information". Except it had crashed, and the advertising screen was saying "Ubuntu 15.04 adl-uk-002661 tty1" and "adl-uk-002661 login: _"
00:39:03 <fizzie> I like it when screens like this are showing things they shouldn't be showing.
00:49:28 <kmc> https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/e4so9b/for_all_you_programmers_bart_at_least_the_station/
00:49:40 <kmc> the farecard readers on the new MUNI trains run embedded Windows
00:49:54 <kmc> I saw one of them crashed to the desktop screen once, start menu and all
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02:04:56 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67605&oldid=62538 * DMC * (+98)
02:05:13 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67606&oldid=67605 * DMC * (-7)
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02:10:54 <oerjan> <wib_jonas> oerjan: I found a loop <-- wait, it sees its own messages? i thought that didn't happen no matter who it sends to
02:11:56 <fizzie> You do if you send to yourself.
02:12:23 <HackEso> u? No such file or directory
02:12:56 <oerjan> (i renamed it for keyboard pressing shortness)
02:13:18 <HackEso> 1/2:necessity//If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it. \ prooftechnique//prooftechnique né NihilistDandy: He was there some time ago. Maybe he'll come back. Maybe he's a nihilist, too. (Note from the Editor: He came back, and is a nihilist.) He is inevitably on a mathematical descent. \ double dactyl//Curious spurious juvenile poetry that is supposedly tricky to write, but its obsession with sesquipedal
02:13:21 <HackEso> 2/2:ity makes double dactyls quite gaudy and trite. \ cut elimination//The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator. \ nvd//nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
02:14:03 <oerjan> (of course my muscle memory for how to use ` pretty much means i don't make use of the simpler typing, but there you go)
02:14:16 <fizzie> Do you actually need `t for 5 w?
02:15:05 <oerjan> shachaf: it's shorter if ` is a dead key, because then `u = ù but `t isn't a special combination (at least on my keyboard)
02:15:47 <oerjan> ProofTechnique: hey you're here!
02:16:38 * oerjan ups the ante for duplicate responding by not even reading until the end of the line
02:16:39 <shachaf> oerjan: Aha. But deadkeys are scow.
02:16:48 <fizzie> IMO, with a compose key, compose-`-? should compose ` onto absolutely anything, using a COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT. But it doesn't, here.
02:17:09 <shachaf> fizzie: Can Compose enter multiple code points?
02:17:30 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't think so
02:18:11 <fizzie> I don't really know. Though I can type a t̀ by starting with a t, then holding down ctrl-shift and typing 0300. But that's the urxvt code point entry feature.
02:18:39 <HackEso> 1/1:hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi
02:18:58 <oerjan> hum i guess that proves nothing
02:18:59 <fizzie> `` 5 'echo ho' # it's christmas
02:19:01 <HackEso> 1/1:ho \ ho \ ho \ ho \ ho
02:19:06 <HackEso> 1/1:bleen//Bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees. \ i//I SIGNIFICAT NVMERVM VNVM \ burma//Burma: Ask Bike \ nth//nth is not that helpful \ nooooodle//Noooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
02:19:53 <oerjan> Bike is not here though. at least by that nick.
02:20:52 <fizzie> Where did I see a Burma-Shave thing recently? Maybe a random xkcd.
02:21:21 <fizzie> There's one in https://xkcd.com/491 but I think it was something else instead maybe.
02:25:58 <ProofTechnique> I wonder if anyone's ever done a whale-themed cover of Jolene.
02:32:17 <oerjan> Jooooowoooowwooooowwooo...
02:39:48 <oerjan> ProofTechnique: feel free to implement the obvious /hackenv/bin/whale command hth
02:40:19 * oerjan won't due to a sudden attack of good taste
02:40:41 <int-e> The question "Are you whales from Scotland?" pops into your mind for no discernably reason.
02:42:39 * oerjan googles and learns new horrible joke, balancing out his good taste
02:46:23 <int-e> The good thing about terrible jokes is that they're easy to remember ;)
03:01:08 * oerjan saw b_jonas misspell one of his awkwardly named commands and wanted to check if the misspelled version existed
03:02:12 <oerjan> because if not, i think there was another "fascinating effect" involved in bfbot's response to that
03:03:36 <oerjan> oh there was a logic to the naming
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03:29:40 <esowiki> [[IBC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67607&oldid=67112 * Quadril-Is * (+99)
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04:02:19 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Is this too evil? <-- really really bad judgement at the very least.
04:05:27 <oerjan> and a horrible precedent for this channel.
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04:06:48 <oerjan> and don't ask me if it's even legal.
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04:10:58 <oerjan> admittedly the bot probably needs to be kept off until fixed.
04:12:26 <oerjan> b_jonas: you could have phrased that a lot less confrontational, though.
04:12:32 <zzo38> If you do not try to register it, I do not have a problem with it since if they want to register it themself then they can do so and use NS GHOST to force a disconnect
04:12:50 <oerjan> zzo38: except that's exactly what he did
04:13:30 <zzo38> Yes, but I think that isn't what should be done. Instead just use a persistent connection, I think, is better
04:14:20 <oerjan> zzo38: i am confused what problem you are thinking that solves
04:14:47 <oerjan> the problem is that bfbot was online, completely abusable, and its owner wasn't.
04:15:35 <oerjan> and b_jonas used its abusability to get it disconnected.
04:15:57 <oerjan> by a method which required him registering it. i'm not sure whether another would have worked.
04:16:11 <zzo38> Would it work to only temporarily register it?
04:16:18 <zzo38> If so, then that is what should be done.
04:16:47 <oerjan> oh he also set nick protection to prevent it from reconnecting, i think.
04:17:27 <oerjan> which is the thing that cannot be done temporarily, i guess.
04:18:18 <zzo38> If it automatically reconnects, that isn't your fault. If it tries to rejoin the channel, then you can add a ban and then remove it later. If it does a wrong thing by a private message, filter them out on your client. Other than that, I think just leave it.
04:19:02 <oerjan> zzo38: the thing is that it was so abusable that a person could use it against a third party
04:19:23 <zzo38> That isn't up to you, though. Just let it; the third party can filter it out themself if they do not want it.
04:19:57 <zzo38> But if you are really concerned, I suppose notify the server operator they can decide whether or not to do anything about it.
04:19:58 <oerjan> also, it was on #esoteric-blah which has no ops
04:20:15 <zzo38> If it is a channel with no ops then just it be on there.
04:20:22 <oerjan> (well, it has staff so we could ask FireFly i guess)
04:21:40 <oerjan> oh wait it's freenode-staff which isn't the same thing.
04:22:34 <oerjan> (just a dummy account to hold channels i think)
04:24:34 <zzo38> I think you should not interfere other people's channel if it can be use on a channel that has no ops then it should just let be on there, and if you do not want to receive their messages then you can filter in the client side. If it causes problems with the server, then the server operator should learn about it in order to remove it.
04:24:55 <oerjan> @tell kspalaiologos I see b_jonas may have gone a bit too far to quit your bot. it was _really_ unsecure though (which is how he could).
04:25:59 <oerjan> trying some de-escalation
04:30:49 <zzo38> If they do not want any channel operators then should not have any; unfortunately Freenode doesn't have the channel with + prefix to indicate this explicitly. They should, in order that it can easily be indicated if you want + or #
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05:25:27 <zzo38> I think is strange that the /proc/*/fd/* pretend to be symlinks but don't really work like symlinks. It seem like it would be like a "special link" instead?
05:27:55 <kmc> in what way don't they act like symlinks?
05:28:27 <zzo38> I think they can refer to deleted files and to anonymous stuff, and symlinks can't
05:28:32 <kmc> is it because they may refer to anonymous things?
05:29:10 <kmc> keegan@localhost:~$ ls -l /proc/self/fd | grep pipe
05:29:10 <kmc> l-wx------ 1 keegan keegan 64 Dec 2 21:29 1 -> pipe:[6737388]
05:29:15 <kmc> wonder what that number means
05:29:17 <shachaf> Can you distinguish between a deleted file and a link to a file ending in ' (deleted)'?
05:29:32 <kmc> you mean without a race condition?
05:30:03 <kmc> well you could try to readlink then open
05:30:04 <shachaf> If you have a program that opens /foo, and you delete foo, /proc/pid/fd/n will be a link to '/foo (deleted)'
05:30:10 <kmc> but I guess you may have both files
05:30:17 <kmc> both '/foo' and '/foo (deleted)'
05:30:23 <shachaf> But how can you tell whether a program just opened a file with that name?
05:30:35 <shachaf> Ugh, I hate how much of UNIX is stringly typed.
05:30:42 <shachaf> The whole /proc thing is a mess.
05:30:57 <kmc> does stat /proc/$PID/fd/$N tell you anything useful?
05:31:05 <kmc> /proc isn't even UNIX
05:31:19 <kmc> it's a linux thing intended for quick hacks in kernel development that just grew and grew
05:31:25 <shachaf> How did ps work back in the day?
05:31:32 <kmc> BSD also has /proc but there's not like a standard for what's in these things
05:31:40 <kmc> i think it even has a linux-emulating procfs as well
05:31:48 <shachaf> There isn't a POSIX-style standard, but that's not what I care about.
05:31:50 <kmc> i think by parsing /dev/mem
05:32:03 <kmc> and so ps was setuid
05:32:26 <shachaf> The annoying thing is that even if I port my program specifically to Linux, I have this terrible ABI.
05:32:41 <shachaf> The system call ABI is pretty good. Things like ioctls are OK? And /proc is a mess.
05:32:46 <zzo38> There are problems with /proc, although I think it is because they treat the files in it as files and symlinks and so on even though it isn't like that. Add a new type for "special entries" and then you can avoid such problem.
05:32:59 <shachaf> And that's not to mention the userspace ABI, which involves parsing things like /etc/passwd and /etc/resolv.conf which are sort of specified.
05:33:16 <kmc> ioctls are not okay
05:33:34 <kmc> ioctls are like syscalls only with minimal oversight on whether they are at all well-designed
05:34:05 <shachaf> Sure, but at least they have an ABI at all, generally.
05:34:20 <shachaf> Instead of parsing text which was mostly meant for debugging.
05:34:44 <shachaf> kmc: Do you like io_uring?
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05:36:38 <kmc> what's that
05:36:46 <shachaf> I don't see anything different from stat.
05:37:05 <shachaf> Maybe you can open the file and fstat it and compare the inodes or something.
05:37:20 <shachaf> It's the new Linux asynchronous I/O API.
05:37:28 <shachaf> and maybe asynchronous everything API??
05:37:38 <shachaf> https://lwn.net/Articles/776703/
05:37:59 <shachaf> You have a request and response ring buffer, and you send the kernel requests and get responses.
05:38:21 <shachaf> If you can send it requests fast enough, you might never have transitions to ring 0 at all.
05:38:35 <shachaf> You write to your buffer in your thread and it reads in its thread on another core.
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05:45:02 <kmc> but you can also call into the kernel to block on it?
05:45:19 <kmc> this is how high performance network drivers have worked forever
05:45:33 <kmc> if you're doing low latency infiniband or something on linux then you don't go through the kernel at all
05:45:42 <kmc> you write into a ring buffer in the card's address space
05:46:29 <shachaf> You can also call into the kernel, yep.
05:46:52 <shachaf> This is the reasonable way for things to work, obviously.
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07:05:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Initialization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67608&oldid=67603 * Zzo38 * (+372)
07:08:10 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67609&oldid=67382 * Zzo38 * (+220) It is the old version of TeXnicard; make clear that it is different from the new version.
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07:39:28 <shachaf> why does c++ have copy constructors given that copy constructors are scow
07:40:25 <shachaf> is there any use of the std::vector copy constructor that isn't a mistake, anyway
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07:54:34 <kmc> shachaf: historical reasons
07:54:55 <kmc> the language was designed around value types / unboxed objects / whatever you want to call them
07:55:10 <kmc> but they hadn't worked out that move semantics are the way to make that work nicely
07:55:42 <kmc> moves + an explicit clone() method seems much nicer to me
07:55:50 <kmc> though this depends on a certain return-value optimization
07:55:57 <kmc> but everything in C++ depends on optimization for good performance
07:56:47 <kmc> there are probably some cases where the copy constructor performs better
07:56:52 <kmc> at least, i think there are some cases for operator=
07:57:00 <kmc> which is a closely related concept
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07:57:15 <kmc> but operator= has an old object to (partially) dispose of, and Foo(const Foo&) doesn't
07:57:39 <kmc> all this is setting aside the question of whether overloadable *move* constructors are also a mistake
07:57:48 <kmc> which I think is much more debatable
07:58:05 <shachaf> Man, everything about the STL is scow.
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07:58:16 <shachaf> Every time I try to understand what's going on there I'm miserable.
07:58:46 <kmc> Rust has no operator= overloading, if you assign into a variable whose type has a destructor, then the whole thing is destroyed before the new value is moved in
07:58:47 <shachaf> And the specification requires things to be low-performance. And the implemetations aren't predictable or fast.
07:58:52 <kmc> which is plausibly less efficient in some cases, I guess
07:59:05 <kmc> but I'm not sure how often anyone writes an operator= which does such things
07:59:33 <shachaf> That sounds pretty plausible. Maybe an even more plausible thing would be to do away with destructors entirely.
08:00:00 <kmc> then how will I have RAII?
08:00:05 <kmc> RAII is tg
08:00:52 <HackEso> RAII means you deallocate in the destructor. There is no 'initializer' involved.
08:01:08 <kmc> that is a profoundly useless definition
08:01:25 <shachaf> RAII means you have destructors, I think?
08:01:27 <HackEso> 10903:2017-05-18 <shachäf> slwd raii//s,allocate in the constructor and ,, \ 5854:2015-07-21 <orën> learn RAII means you allocate in the constructor and deallocate in the destructor. There is no \'initializer\' involved. \ 5853:2015-07-21 <orën> le/rn RAII/RAII is Resource Allocation in the constructor... wait wait uh... Is uh, Initialization
08:03:30 <kmc> I think the important *concept* is that resources of all sorts can be modeled by objects in the language, in such a way that having a value of that object type guarantees that the resource is available with a certain set of operations on it
08:04:27 <kmc> basically the idea that constructors and destructors make sense to manage not just memory but stuff like open files, mutex acquisitions, etc
08:04:39 <kmc> and this is a good fit for affine types because of course a lot of non-memory resources cannot be copied arbitrarily
08:04:50 <kmc> as well as a lot of memory-related resources such as uniquely-owned objects
08:05:20 <shachaf> But constructors aren't the important part, it's destructors. A constructor is just a function that returns a value, but destructors have special language support.
08:05:41 <kmc> in C++ there are some other reasons to have constructors as a language feature
08:05:45 <kmc> but Rust doesn't need them
08:06:05 <shachaf> But also is this actually a good idea?
08:06:12 <shachaf> A mutex is pretty different from memory.
08:06:27 <shachaf> And RAII isn't even particularly good at managing memory, I think?
08:06:27 <kmc> *shrug*, it makes for a very convenient and safe API
08:06:49 <shachaf> In particular RAII helps you write a program with zillions of balanced mallocs and frees.
08:07:03 <shachaf> But I'm not sure that's a particularly good way to write a program?
08:07:49 <shachaf> If you do something like arena allocation, then destructors don't even make that much sense. You don't want to loop over the arena and run all the destructors of all the objects.
08:08:47 <kmc> usually not, no
08:08:53 <kmc> so don't use arenas with types that have destructors?
08:08:58 <kmc> but if you do, the right thing will still happen
08:09:21 <shachaf> Only if you loop over the arena, which presumably isn't even part of the arena API.
08:09:44 <shachaf> Since arenas are all about freeing a bunch of things all at once.
08:10:57 <shachaf> How much does RAII give you over something like Python's "with locking_lock_thingy(mutex): ..."?
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08:11:34 <shachaf> It gives you the ability to move a lock_holder_object_type_t to a function, which is a way of telling it that you're holding the lock and it's responsible for freeing it.
08:11:55 <shachaf> Maybe that's good? But it seems pretty niche at best, and possibly makes for harder to follow control flow.
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08:14:03 <kmc> i think passing off responsibility for a resource through moves seems pretty useful
08:14:26 <kmc> but i'm kind of tired and not putting a lot of thought into coming up with compelling examples
08:14:40 <kmc> i have a lot of different things on my mind today :/
08:16:38 <shachaf> I think you give up on something meaningful by having invisible control flow happen in what seems like an assignment or value passing.
08:18:54 <shachaf> A "lock_holder_type_t holder{lock};" isn't really much of a value, it's control flow, and it's not clear that treating it as a value makes programs clearer. Maybe?
08:19:46 <shachaf> Anyway that makes sense too.
08:21:14 <olsner> RAII as a concept has always annoyed me, it's weird to reuse something that is otherwise "setting things to their initial value" to mean "acquiring resources"
08:22:08 <shachaf> RAII isn't really about constructors, and is a bad name.
08:22:25 <shachaf> "RAII" is also a bad name.
08:24:14 <olsner> yes, it's more about destructors anyway - a hack where you can use destructors for timing release of "other" resources (except e.g. memory that is more naturally part of an object or its value)
08:24:15 <b_jonas> oerjan re sees its own messages: it doesn't see its own messages on a channel, but does see them if it explicitly sends to itself by nick
08:25:06 <kmc> shachaf: the fungus fair is on sunday
08:26:35 <kmc> fungot: the fungot fair is on sunday
08:26:35 <fungot> kmc: do you have the parens the important part for me.
08:27:20 <b_jonas> ooh nice, they extended the cold weather for three more days
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08:28:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: ok, thanks for the feedback
08:28:33 <b_jonas> oerjan re "even legal" => more like, may get me banned from freenode
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08:29:57 <b_jonas> zzo38 re add a ban => doesn't help at all, you can still abuse the bot without it joining anywhere
08:30:13 <b_jonas> I abused it in private message and made it send to a -n channel
08:30:46 <shachaf> Wasn't RAII invented for exception handling anyway?
08:32:16 <b_jonas> kmc /proc/*/fd/* not symlinks => if you open them, you get an actual dup of the same file description, with a shared seek pointer
08:33:16 <shachaf> I like how everything on Linux relies on /proc and /dev and /sys being mounted in particular places but that's only a convention.
08:33:20 <b_jonas> that it refers to a deleted file is just slightly weird compared to that
08:33:29 <kmc> b_jonas: ah
08:33:37 <kmc> i was wondering whether it might do something like that, as well
08:34:11 <shachaf> It's not even particularly useful in the Plan 9 way where you can run a program with a fake /proc that you proxy calls to, which no one does.
08:36:12 <b_jonas> zzo38 special entries => even if the type in lstat/fstat doesn't distinguish them, you can call statfs/fstatfs to tell whether a file is on /proc . There's even a command line interface in coreutils now,
08:36:34 <b_jonas> ``` stat -fc "%T %n" /hackenv /proc
08:36:35 <HackEso> hostfs /hackenv \ proc /proc
08:36:52 <shachaf> At least Linux is getting pidfd soon, I think.
08:37:35 <b_jonas> shachaf re parsing text which was mostly meant for debugging => everything ps prints was meant for debugging. normal programs shouldn't invoke ps and find something out automatically to do normal operations.
08:38:02 <shachaf> b_jonas: I'm talking about parsing text in /proc.
08:39:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, sometimes I want to make a copy of a whole vector. it typically happens with trivial copy constructors, but can happen even with nontrivial ones.
08:40:10 <b_jonas> and it's not like copying short vectors is slow.
08:40:24 <shachaf> b_jonas: Sometimes you want to make a copy of a whole vector, but you could instead do that by calling a function to copy it.
08:40:33 <shachaf> Having it as an implicit thing when you call a function or whatever is ridiculous.
08:40:58 <shachaf> It requires a malloc call so it's not like it's fast.
08:43:14 <b_jonas> shachaf re zillions of balanced mallocs not a particularly good way to write a program => yes, and C++ lets you have objects with trivial constructors, and it can optimize those constructor calls away to a memcpy or nothing everywhere.
08:44:50 <shachaf> The point is that the argument for RAII is that it helps you balance your mallocs and frees etc., and if that was what you wanted to do anyway, it might be pretty good, but if it's not such a good strategy in the first place, then RAII is less helpful.
08:46:29 <b_jonas> "At least Linux is getting pidfd soon, I think." => it already has pidfd I believe, but maybe I'm desynced with reality a bit
08:51:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: what do you want to do implicitly each time you call a function with your vector? do you want a compile time error? that's fine, that's what unique_ptr is for. do you want a pointer plus length without refcounting or any other mechanism to make sure it points to a valid vector? that's bad, it's a thing that's perfectly possible in the core language, but the C++ standard library messed up and
08:51:13 <b_jonas> only has std::string_view and the horribly overengineered std::span for now.
08:52:25 <shachaf> A copy of the struct seems OK? I guess C++ people wouldn't like that so they can ban it.
08:52:37 <shachaf> A copy of the data is ridiculous.
08:52:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: on the other hand, sometimes you don't need top performance, but just want to write a program easily without making stupid mistakes or thinking too much about allocation, in which case the refcounting and automatic frees are useful, and you may still want to write your program in C rather than in a language that can't detect type errors in compile time or in a lazy language like Haskell
08:52:56 <shachaf> Reference counting is obviously ridiculous.
08:53:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: there can be different types for each of those
08:53:37 <b_jonas> no, reference counting is not obviously ridiculous. it's an overkill for MOST things that you do, needed for very few things, that I admit, but it also doesn't hurt too much in many applications
08:54:06 <shachaf> Instead of reference counting you can just manage the lifetime in some reasonable way.
08:54:14 <b_jonas> I write a lot of throwaway short programs these days, and given that they take five seconds or even more to run, finding type errors early can help
08:54:35 <shachaf> For example, allocate at the beginning of the program and never free.
08:55:08 <b_jonas> allocate at the beginning and never free => that's the easiest thing, you can do that in C++ or basically any language
08:55:42 <b_jonas> you don't have to use a std::vector for everything
08:55:57 <shachaf> In fact I don't want to use it for anything.
08:56:10 <b_jonas> you don't have to use it for anything in your code either
08:56:12 <shachaf> Every time I look in /usr/include/c++/ I decide that the STL is scow.
08:56:36 <shachaf> It's all incomprehensible.
08:57:24 <shachaf> Anyway, you can make types for all these things, but the language and library shouldn't be working against you by implicitly doing the wrong thing.
08:58:01 <shachaf> If your program runs for five seconds, exit_group is certainly one of the best memory management strategies.
08:59:49 <zzo38> I have read about pidfd in Linux. I had a similar idea, although mine was a bit different; you can add the constant PIDFD to a file descriptor of the process's directory in /proc and use the resulting number wherever a process ID is expected.
09:01:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: the point of pidfd is that there's a flag on fork to give you an open file descriptor to the pidfd handler, so there's no file system muckery at all
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09:01:59 <b_jonas> no messing around in /proc for something that doesn't need it
09:02:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: file seconds or longer. at file seconds already I want the type errors early.
09:03:02 <b_jonas> but yes, there's a point in that
09:03:16 <b_jonas> I don't need to release memory during those programs
09:03:45 <shachaf> At least if you fork you don't need to worry about race conditions since you're the parent.
09:03:47 <b_jonas> though I do want to destroy a few resource-holding objects that hold something other than memory, such as file handles
09:03:51 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is good too (although I think it is for clone() and not fork(); fork() has no flags), but I think what I read is that it is the same as the directory in /proc though, so you can use that to get a file descriptor for another process.
09:04:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: while you're the parent, yes. but how do you tell to some other processes which process that is?
09:05:04 <b_jonas> those other processes may want to send signals or whatever, even after your process (the parent) exits
09:05:36 <shachaf> Sure, but you can open /proc/pid and send them the fd.
09:05:45 <zzo38> Other than the process ID, if you have a file descriptor then could you use a SCM_RIGHTS message to transmit it to other processes?
09:07:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, or have other children inherit it
09:07:32 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, if you are spawning them yourself
09:08:32 <zzo38> Anyways, what the difference is in what I read they were doing in Linux and what my own idea was, is that my own way doesn't have a separate system call for sending a signal to or otherwise deal with other processes by the file descriptor instead of process ID; you just add together PIDFD and the file descriptor, to make a number usable where a process ID is expected.
09:09:10 <b_jonas> definitely SCM_RIGHTS, unless you're golfing for IOCCC, in which case passing file descriptors with sprintf(name, "/proc/%d/self/%d", parentpid, parent_pidfd); pidfd = open(name, 2, 0); is easier.
09:10:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh yeah, you mentioned that. but I find that a somewhat dangerous idea, putting the flag in the process id argument itself rather than into separate flags
09:10:39 <b_jonas> I don't have a definite example for why that's a bad idea, I just have the feeling that it could cause weird bugs, including possibly security bugs, in some programs
09:11:37 <zzo38> I thought of that, and that is why the largest valid process ID has to be less than PIDFD-1.
09:12:17 <zzo38> (Although there might be other things I have not thought of, but as far as I know, I cannot think of them)
09:12:40 <shachaf> Ugh. Can all y'all just scrap half of Unix and make a good system call API?
09:14:24 <zzo38> shachaf: I had idea of Plan10 which is sort of like that, although you have to scrap less than half of Unix because some things required for compatibility with Unix; the rest can be implemented in user libraries so need not being system calls (some of them would use new Plan10 system calls which are not Unix system calls, in order to emulate them).
09:14:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What if I don't want compatibility with Unix?
09:14:53 <shachaf> Or at best I want it only for an emulation layer like WSL.
09:15:26 <ais523> shachaf: have you seen WASI? you probably need more system calls than that for a full OS, but it seems to have the general right attitude
09:15:55 <shachaf> ais523: Well, I want it to be the actual OS interface, for actual native code, and without a web browser or some ridiculous thing running in between.
09:16:05 <zzo38> Some things would only be compatible if things are set up to do such thing anyways; if your program exports a function called "plan10main" then those things are not automatically set up.
09:16:11 <shachaf> The goal is simplifying things, not adding layer and layers of wrappers.
09:16:16 <shachaf> But maybe the API itself is good?
09:16:51 <zzo38> (If your program doesn't include "plan10main", then the one in the library is used, which sets up Unix compatibility and then calls main.)
09:17:24 <zzo38> Use a library without Unix compatibility if you do not want it though, I suppose, is also possible.
09:17:28 <shachaf> It seems likely that all syscalls should go through something like io_uring, since how often do you want to do a ring transition for each one separately?
09:19:51 <shachaf> The actual WASI API might be reasonable? What's better about it than Linux?
09:20:49 <zzo38> I don't know what is io_uring
09:21:12 <shachaf> zzo38: https://kernel.dk/io_uring.pdf
09:21:28 <b_jonas> and I want compatibility with a lot of existing programs that I use and I don't want to rewrite, so I use Linux. (and Windows at work.)
09:21:33 <shachaf> That article maybe isn't the best introduction.
09:22:43 <b_jonas> but sure, experiment with research OSes if you want, someone has to do it so that 30 years from now, we have an infrastructure that's only 30 years obsolete, not 50 years obsolete
09:23:13 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is why my idea of Plan10 has the compatibility mode (much of it is implemented in user libraries, but some stuff would be part of the kernel).
09:24:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: will you want a new main OS interface every 15 years, and will you have three different compatibility layers 30 years from now when you add the fourth one?
09:24:58 <b_jonas> with existing large programs using all of them mixed and matched through libraries obviously
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09:25:17 <shachaf> b_jonas: Permit programs to use only one of the interfaces.
09:25:33 <shachaf> Just like Windows supported either Win32 or POSIX, but not both at once.
09:27:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: If the author of a program wishes to use multiple libraries that is up to the author of those programs. I should think the kernel itself would not have three different compatibility layers and new main OS interfaces, if it is designed properly.
09:31:12 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think WASI has a mandatory dependency on WebAssembly, although obviously it was designed for that use
09:31:35 <ais523> also, WebAssembly doesn't require a browser, it's just a bytecode language that can have small non-browser-dependent interpreters written for it (and a few of those exist already)
09:33:06 <zzo38> (Of course, Unix programs which export a symbol called "plan10main" will not work when compiled for Plan10, but that is unavoidable. If you install an emulator then you might even be able to run the programs directly though (rather than recompiling them for Plan10), which would work; however, the emulators are not part of the core system, but just a feature of the core system to allow the possibility to install emulators.)
09:33:38 <ais523> zzo38: why not use a character in the symbol name that isn't valid in a UNIX program?
09:33:40 <zzo38> ais523: I know of that, and I wanted to see if there is a library to execute WebAssembly programs from a native C program.
09:34:05 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not sure whether any of the existing interpreters work as a library, even if none do it should be easy to adapt them though
09:34:42 <zzo38> ais523: Because the C compiler will not accept it. Anyways, it is the C library which causes the program to call main() when it starts anyways, I think?
09:35:01 <zzo38> (So the kernel doesn't need to care what it is called.)
09:35:32 <ais523> won't the C compiler need to be modified anyway to produce programs for a new OS?
09:36:06 <ais523> but yes, in most implementations, main is called by an object file in the standard library, normally called something like crt0.o
09:36:14 <ais523> IIRC it isn't in libc itself, but a separate standard library
09:36:52 <zzo38> Probably, but you will not need to modify the files which change how the program is parsed, I should think.
09:39:13 <ais523> out of interest, why do you want a different main method? so you can give it different parameters?
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09:39:37 <ais523> …now I'm wondering whether C++ object files mangle the name of "main" or not
09:40:15 <zzo38> That is one of it, yes (there are a few additional parameters), but also for compatibility with UNIX.
09:41:08 <ais523> well, most C implementations let you give a function too many parameters without issue
09:41:26 <ais523> that's one of the reasons why caller-cleans is a more common calling convention than callee-cleans
09:41:33 <ais523> (IMO callee-cleans is much better for a number of reasons)
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09:42:26 <ais523> so why not use the same entry point for plan10 programs and posix programs?
09:42:54 <zzo38> Because the default settings for Plan10 are not compatible with POSIX.
09:43:54 <zzo38> (The default implementation of plan10main sets up some stuff required for POSIX compatibility and then calls main.)
09:43:59 <ais523> what sort of settings are these? things like locale?
09:45:18 <zzo38> No; stuff such as that in POSIX, you will receive a SIGPIPE signal which will terminate the process for writing to any broken pipe, and so on
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09:46:51 <zzo38> (Sometimes that behaviour with SIGPIPE is wanted, but often only for file descriptor 1. So if you are not using the POSIX compatibility then your program can enable SIGPIPE for file descriptor 1 only, in that case.)
09:47:35 <ais523> oh, I see, for file descriptors inherited from the parent process there's no easy chance to configure that
09:47:49 <ais523> (for file descriptors opened by the program itself, it would make sense for the API that opens it to specify how you wanted signals to be configured)
09:47:57 <shachaf> Are file descriptors a good system?
09:48:00 <ais523> I can see an argument for file descriptors 1 and 2
09:48:30 <shachaf> It's kind of nice how you can have something like a perf_event_open fd, and either read() or mmap() it, just like anything else.
09:48:36 <ais523> shachaf: you need /something/ to be able to refer to an open file, and having an "open/closed" status in files rather than being stateless seems to be the right option because it makes it much easier to reason about potential race conditions
09:48:38 <shachaf> Rather than a bunch of special-case system calls.
09:48:40 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that makes sense. The POSIX compatibility API (which is a user library function) would call the system call and tell it to enable SIGPIPE.
09:48:50 <shachaf> But sometimes people try too hard to fit things into that API.
09:48:51 <ais523> WASI came up with an improvement, though, where file descriptors are random numbers rather than being sequential
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09:55:18 <zzo38> (possibly some setting in the C library which the default plan10main would set up, or that somehow checks whether or not plan10main has been overridden if that is possible)
09:59:10 <shachaf> Sequential file descriptors are clearly scow.
09:59:37 <shachaf> Windows has HANDLEs, which I guess are pretty similar.
10:00:37 <shachaf> I guess they're not the same for various reasons.
10:03:31 <olsner> I consider HANDLEs and file descriptors both just handles for kernel objects
10:03:50 <olsner> (windows has some unrelated things that are typed HANDLE but aren't actually kernel objects though)
10:05:48 <olsner> e.g. GDI handles are in a different namespace, and some are just pointers for things that pretend to be or once were kernel features but are implemented in user space
10:06:59 <shachaf> It probably makes sense to be able to have "system calls" implemented in userspace, as Windows does.
10:07:14 <shachaf> (Though maybe that's not really compatible with the ring buffer thing I was talking about before?)
10:07:29 <olsner> it's a good way to give you freedom on the kernel side to change your system calls
10:07:42 <zzo38> If the ABI and ISA fields in the ELF header are incorrect, then the kernel should see if an emulator for the specified ABI/ISA is loaded (the emulator is just a kernel module, and the core system does not include any emulators), and if there isn't one then trying to execute that file is an error.
10:08:35 <shachaf> I'm a little skeptical that things like POSIX are particularly good.
10:09:13 <shachaf> I'd rather have minimal and stable OS ABIs and then maybe a library on top that things can link to if they want to be portable.
10:10:09 <zzo38> I do think there are some problems with POSIX, and also some problems with Windows, and also other systems.
10:11:45 <zzo38> Wikipedia says that the ABI field in the ELF header "is often set to 0 regardless of the target platform". Unless the program is for System V, such files will have to be corrected in order to run on Plan10.
10:12:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Is Plan10 some sort of banana pun?
10:12:32 <zzo38> (This correction can be made without recompiling the program; you only have to change one byte in the executable file.)
10:12:50 <zzo38> shachaf: That is not the intention; the name is similar to Plan9 but is different.
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10:26:18 <wib_jonas> shachaf: programs only use one interfaces => then all large programs will stick to the older interface because that's what the libraries use. just like everyone still uses gtk+ version 2 rather than the incompatible version 3, but in a larger scale.
10:26:36 <wib_jonas> I'd prefer to keep most of the unix api, because most of it is sane, and just improve the few parts that are bad.
10:26:47 <wib_jonas> but I admit I was a bit too sarcastic about compatibility
10:27:27 <wib_jonas> and you can mix windows API with POSIX all the time on windows, although it's ugly because the POSIX API really doesn't match how windows works, and you need some conversion functions, but I still do it sometimes
10:28:19 <shachaf> wib_jonas: You can port programs to new interfaces just like you can port them to new OSes.
10:29:13 <shachaf> If programs are just using the OS ABI via libraries, it's even easier to port, because you can just port the libraries (like libc and SDL).
10:29:26 <wib_jonas> ais523: main isn't mangled, but the C++ compiler treats in somewhat special way at compile time, and then the linker treats it specially at link time
10:31:20 <wib_jonas> in particular, on most platforms the compiler emits main as an extern "C" function, even if you didn't explicitly define it as such, and it has an implicit return 0, and IIRC there was one or two more things special about it, plus the linker inserts constructors and destructors to it somehow
10:31:52 <wib_jonas> or so I believe, but I'm not quite sure about this
10:34:06 <wib_jonas> shachaf: no, windows HANDLEs are mostly sequential numbers too. they're not guaranteed to be sequential, unlike on unix, but they mostly are.
10:34:35 <wib_jonas> or so I believe, but again, I'm not sure in this
10:35:04 <shachaf> Aren't HANDLEs generally opaque?
10:36:04 <wib_jonas> shachaf: opaque, yes. opaque numbers that are typically sequential, but the OS gets to decide that, and may give you any numbers it if it feels like.
10:36:13 <shachaf> I thought they were sometimes pointers or other things.
10:41:30 <ais523> wib_jonas: IIRC in C++ main isn't allowed to be recursive (although in C it is)
10:41:52 <ais523> this is a weird limitation because it should be easy just to imply a wrapper around it in the compiler if the compiler couldn't handle a recursive main
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11:32:35 <HackEso> dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[')
11:33:07 <shachaf> I want a program to SEGV, any options?
11:35:53 <HackEso> bash: line 1: 54 Segmentation fault perl '-ekill 11,$$' \ 139
11:39:56 <ais523> `! c return *(int *)0;
11:39:59 <HackEso> /hackenv/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 68 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
11:40:12 <ais523> can't get much more real SEGV than that
11:40:48 <ais523> also, that "$$" is interesting, looks like there was an attempt to swap in the PID, but it still works anyway due to the nature of /tmp
11:41:31 <shachaf> I wanted to test the program "catchsegv" that I just found out about.
11:41:49 <shachaf> But now I know how it works so I'm less curious.
11:43:13 <shachaf> (It uses LD_PRELOAD to set up a signal handler.)
11:44:04 <wib_jonas> ``` rm -v /hackenv/bin/culprits-ng
11:44:12 <HackEso> removed '/hackenv/bin/culprits-ng'
11:44:19 <wib_jonas> I created that long ago, but I don't use it
11:44:29 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/culprits-ng//#!/bin/sh \ exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "'
11:46:39 <wib_jonas> I almost never want to look up just the users who modified a file, without other parts of the revision log
11:50:50 <fizzie> `culprits ../bin/culprits-ng
11:50:52 <HackEso> wib_jonäs oerjän oerjän b_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs b_jonäs
11:53:16 <fizzie> Not 100% sure how culprits-ng differed from the regular one, other than the limit, no scowrevs, and no no-ping.
11:56:01 <shachaf> `` hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- ../bin/culprits-ng | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "'
11:56:07 <HackEso> fizzie b_jonas b_jonas b_jonas b_jonas
11:56:23 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- ../bin/culprits-ng | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "'
11:56:25 <HackEso> wib_jonas oerjan oerjan fizzie jeffl35 fizzie evilipse b_jonas b_jonas b_jonas b_jonas b_jonas
11:56:25 <HackEso> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n'
11:56:50 <wib_jonas> fizzie: no noping, no scowrevs, and different implementation.
11:58:01 <shachaf> What does it have to do with sanity?
11:58:11 <shachaf> It looks like a golfed Perl implementation.
11:58:36 <wib_jonas> FireFly: scowrevs is a list of revisions in our repository that most of the fancy commands hide by default, though you still see them with an explicit hg
11:58:48 <wib_jonas> and I mean they hide their diffs, so you don't see the same change in the next revision either
11:59:28 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
11:59:37 <HackEso> 121:122 \ 194:196 \ 770:771 \ 1000:1001 \ 1493:1497 \ 2112:2114 \ 3342:3343 \ 4530:4531 \ 5136:5137 \ 5642:5643 \ 5894:5897 \ 8669:8678 \ 9070:9071 \ 9074:9075
12:00:12 <shachaf> Not named by me, I have to say.
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12:02:53 <wib_jonas> shachaf: sorry, it's not a saner implementation anymore, but it was back then:
12:02:54 <wib_jonas> ``` hg cat -r 7010 /hackenv/bin/culprits
12:02:55 <HackEso> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
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14:56:13 <wib_jonas> fungot, how do you pronounce the "g" in "Malbolge"? like "G" in "GIF", or like "g" in "gauge"?
14:56:13 <fungot> wib_jonas: no without using variables? like, mail me the .dbm and .log are 1.7m by now *8) 2)
15:01:29 <int-e> wib_jonas: Those are both terrible examples.
15:01:56 <int-e> wib_jonas: (I pronounced "GIF" wrong for a long time. And "gauge" has two different 'g's.)
15:02:19 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpfaCiBtmOc one hundo
15:02:55 <int-e> wib_jonas: "It's pronounced JIF, not GIF."
15:03:20 <int-e> wib_jonas: Anyway, personally I'm going with 'rage', not 'game'. But I don't know.
15:03:54 <int-e> wib_jonas: Oh maybe that was intentional. Hmm mm. If so, sorry.
15:04:37 <int-e> (Though, honestly, no *very* sorry.)
15:05:00 <int-e> fungot: Do you like contrition?
15:05:01 <fungot> int-e: dlobron annotated 16311 with " walk-case-exp" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord for all primitive operations doesn't seem like a call/ ret pair would be really nice to have
15:05:33 <int-e> I'll take that as a "no".
15:05:58 <wib_jonas> fungot, how do you pronounce "Chesapeake"?
15:05:58 <fungot> wib_jonas: what's the matter with kawa? no tco? total cost whatwhat? that's too bad
15:11:36 <wib_jonas> fungot: total cost? NB "Chesapeake", not "cheapsake".\
15:11:37 <fungot> wib_jonas: was cale any help last night? all isps seemed to be
15:14:30 <myname> there are two ways to pronounce gif: a sane one and a smartass one
15:17:27 <shachaf> Cale: one hundo seems p. low for an undo
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15:26:54 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67610 * DmilkaSTD * (+148) Created page with "This language is inspired on the game "Baba is you". It is not finished, im making it. I made this page to be the first in make a language like this"
15:33:09 <myname> also, how is the g in fungot pronounced? depending on whether you interpret it as part of "got" or es "funge", it would be different
15:33:10 <fungot> myname: i've just written a version of all of the ten thousand pastes up there. what else can i set the escape proc to a global variable
15:37:51 <ais523> myname: I pronounce the g in "fungot" like the g in "fungi"
15:37:51 <fungot> ais523: all right. my wife got her masters at tyler school of art, too? :d hehe no :) i was wondering whether sxpath could be used, how type errors would be annoying with forced fnord.
15:38:04 <ais523> I'm guessing this is ^style irc?
15:38:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
15:38:53 <myname> ais523: i do that too, but you could make a point of it coming from befunge
15:39:15 <myname> I suppose, if you pronounce gif as jif, you should pronounce fungot as funjot
15:39:15 <fungot> myname: http://youtube.com/ fnord richard dawkins " what if you're reading this
15:39:46 <ais523> myname: don't most Befunge impls have names which are a pun on "fungi"?
15:40:09 <ais523> (even though the back-derived etymology is based on "fungible", and the actual etymology was based purely on spelling)
15:40:38 <fizzie> "(UK, US) enPR: fŭnʹjī, fŭngʹgī, IPA(key): /ˈfʌn.dʒaɪ/, /ˈfʌŋ.ɡaɪ/, /ˈfʌŋ.ɡiː/, /ˈfʌn.dʒiː/" that's a lotta pronunciations.
15:41:54 <ais523> I didn't even realise that "fungi" allowed "g"=/dʒ/
15:42:09 <ais523> I don't think I've ever heard that pronunciation
15:44:32 <myname> pronounciation in english is a mess
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15:56:08 <Soni> is this esoteric? https://bpaste.net/show/6E66I
15:57:44 <ais523> it's a DSL, and I don't think we have a consensus on whether DSLs are esoteric
15:57:51 <ais523> they're probably esoteric if used for an unintended purpose
15:57:57 <ais523> is that thing TC when operating on fixed input, for example?
16:10:45 <Soni> I did think about making it so, but, no
16:28:56 <Soni> int-e: "bone"s are structural components of humans
16:29:31 <Soni> originally this was meant to have no validation features, i.e. it wasn't supposed to support use-cases best served by a schema
16:29:43 <Soni> but I guess I ended up adding those in anyway
16:30:05 <Soni> and schemas are basically structural definitions
16:41:36 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67611&oldid=66926 * Dart * (-236) Formatting and terminology
16:42:04 <wib_jonas> wait, fungi and fungot are pronounced differently?
16:42:04 <fungot> wib_jonas: but any reasonably complex caching system that doesn't act dumbly prolly is too stupid to load them when fnord tcpdump, and only insane people are allowed to participate.
16:42:15 <wib_jonas> I mean, fungi and befunge are pronounced differently?
16:43:39 <fizzie> "fungi" and "fungible" are (potentially) pronounced differently, and I think "Befunge" follows the latter usually.
16:43:48 <wib_jonas> apparently "fungi" is pronounced both ways
16:44:52 <int-e> "The Betty compiler, for example, treats every possible straight line of instructions as a subprogram, and if a 'p' instruction alters that subprogram, that subprogram is recompiled." -- hence the name "straight-line code"
16:45:54 <fizzie> Four ways (according to wiktionary), though only two relate to the kind of 'g'. /ɡ/ vs. /dʒ/ and /aɪ/ vs. /iː/.
16:49:30 <int-e> (I looked at the Befunge page in hopes of a pronunciation guide but there doesn't seem to be one.)
16:51:48 <int-e> Oh great, "fungi" has two pronunciations?
16:53:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esomachine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67612 * Dart * (+619) Created page with "==Inconsistencies== Here's the example of truth machine: INDEX_STATE[1, false] HANDS_EXPECT[] INDEX_SET[1, HANDS] OUTPUT[1] HANDS_JUMP[48, 7] HANDS_JUMP[49, 2] INDEX_ST..."
16:53:24 <myname> no, 4, only 2 regarding the g
16:53:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67613&oldid=67612 * Dart * (+17) /* Inconsistencies */
16:54:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67614&oldid=67613 * Dart * (+77) /* Inconsistencies */
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18:33:32 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sorry, it may have been a bit rude to take over your bot
18:33:51 <b_jonas> bfbot. it's your bot, isn't it?
18:34:47 <kspalaiologos> but if it had a few "holes" it wouldn't be bad if it was left anyway
18:35:05 <kspalaiologos> because I knew there is going to be a severe security hole in this bot
18:35:08 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: the bot parses irc lines wrong. it looks like if you say "PRIVMSG" inside a message, even if it's not the second word of the irc line, it thinks that that's the command word and the next word is the target nick/channel
18:35:31 <b_jonas> and if you say ":=" inside a message, it thinks that's the start of the message, even if it's not at the start of the fourth word of the irc line
18:35:38 <b_jonas> both of those are serious security bugs
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18:36:09 <b_jonas> I asked it to send a message to register his nickname bfbot for my account
18:36:27 <b_jonas> then I told nickserv that bfbot is my nick and the bot isn't allowed to use it
18:36:54 <b_jonas> there's a third bug in the bot which I didn't use for this, and which is less important, but it's still nasty enough that you should fix:
18:37:16 <b_jonas> if the message ends in a backslash, it seems like the bot thinks that the next irc line is a continuation of that message
18:38:20 <kspalaiologos> I may send you the source code for further review as I fix the bugs
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18:38:37 <b_jonas> to make it clear, an irc message that the bot reads from the server looks like this: "b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-58.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo hello\r\n"
18:38:50 <b_jonas> looks like this: ":b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-58.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :=echo hello\r\n"
18:39:03 <kritixilithos> kspalaiologos: I thought the bot was written in seed :/
18:39:09 <b_jonas> it has words separated by colons. the first word is always the source, the second is the command
18:39:25 <b_jonas> after that, there can be any number of arguments, and the last argument will start with a colon and can contain spaces inside
18:39:51 <b_jonas> note that the channel name may contain colons, it's only colons at the start of a word that mark the final argument
18:40:17 <b_jonas> so you have to find the first that starts with a colon, not counting the very first word, which always starts with a colon in a message from a server
18:40:44 <b_jonas> for PRIVMSG in a message the server sends you, that will always be the fourth word
18:41:18 <kspalaiologos> the "thing" matching the regex is actually not matching a newline at the end
18:41:33 <kspalaiologos> I just need to add [\r\n]+ at the end of regex and I'm done with this bug
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18:42:38 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: the server always sends you \r\n , which are the bytes 0xD then 0xA
18:42:46 <b_jonas> if you send a message to the server, then \n is enough
18:43:33 <b_jonas> the server is nice, there are a lot of things that it allows clients to send but that it will never send to clients
18:43:58 <b_jonas> such as PRIVMSG or NOTICE with multiple channel/nick targets, or KICK with multiple nick targets, or MODE with more than four modes
18:44:21 <b_jonas> or a line feed without a carriage return, or an empty line, or an invalid command, or a command or nick or channel in a case that isn't the canonical one
18:44:40 <b_jonas> this makes it easy to write a client, but harder to write a good irc server
18:44:56 <b_jonas> well, that's only part of the reason, the other reason is that the server has to manage multiple connections, including with other irc servers
18:45:14 <b_jonas> how do you bring the bot back => no idea, kill then restart your program or something
18:47:50 <b_jonas> it seems that freenode irc interprets a cr as a line break too if you send one, but I wouldn't rely on this, and I haven't tested any other networks
18:48:47 <esowiki> [[Fpulse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67615&oldid=49958 * Dart * (+0) Changed redirect target from [[Fpulse/]] to [[F-PULSE]]
18:49:30 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: anyway, before I took the bot down, I made it loop by sending a message that it misparsed
18:50:00 <b_jonas> it was after that that I decided it was buggy enough that I can just have the irc server eject it
18:50:41 <kspalaiologos> and burn the code printouts to get rid of it for real
18:52:41 <b_jonas> I'd like to defend bash though. some people use bash and write less buggy programs in it. I'm not advertising that, there are better programming languages than bash, just saying.
18:53:08 <b_jonas> and some people write worse programs in perl or php, ones that open huge holes of sql injections for no reasons
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18:54:17 <b_jonas> also, publishing the source code of the bot may help, because it may let the regulars find or debug bugs more quickly. without them, it took days until someone (perhaps kritixilithos) to find the bug with the backslash at the end of the line
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19:21:32 <ais523> <shachaf> is there any use of the std::vector copy constructor that isn't a mistake, anyway ← I don't know what it actually does, but I'm guessing from the discussion that it actually moves the vector contents and leaves the original vector empty?
19:22:26 <b_jonas> the copy contructor of std::vector (in C++) copies the contents of the vector, which implies copying each element of the vector
19:22:39 <ais523> OK, that's what I'd expect it to do
19:22:48 <b_jonas> the move constructor moves the vector contents by updating pointers in the headers, and leaves the original one empty
19:23:13 <ais523> oh right, because in C++ a moved-out-of object can still be referenced
19:23:24 <ais523> (C++ "move" corresponds to Rust "take" rather than Rust "move")
19:23:57 <ais523> re the RAII discussion, I think the name comes from the fact that there's no user-observable time during which the object is allocated but uninitialised
19:24:12 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but in case of most types like an std::vector it's easy, because the moved out one will just have a 0 size and a null pointer in the header. the hard case is std::list, which has to heap allocate to move out of itself with the move constructor.
19:24:13 <ais523> in C you often deal with a four-state transition, allocate/initialise/deinitialise/deallocate
19:24:20 <ais523> and RAII says you merge the first two and last two
19:24:56 <ais523> OK, now I have to ask what the difference between a list and a vector is
19:25:01 <ais523> is the list linked? because that's ridiculous
19:25:06 <b_jonas> C++ std::list is a doubly linked list
19:25:58 <ais523> my current belief about linked lists is "it doesn't make sense to have an abstraction for linked lists, in all the cases where they're actually useful you need to be doing something horrifically low-level with their internals"
19:26:03 <b_jonas> it's something you very rarely need, and it's a pity that it's in the C++ standard library with such a simple name, because it gets lots of clueless people use it when they shouldn't
19:26:16 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's close to true
19:26:50 <b_jonas> however, even if you don't have the general std::list, you can meet one of those low-level things where you define a more specialized object whose copy constructor has to heap-allocate
19:27:21 <b_jonas> which is why they want to solve the general problem, not really for what std::list should do, but how to handle objects like that
19:30:03 <b_jonas> the more important tricky case is that of std::string (and cv::Vector from the Opencv library), which have pointers to themselves, and so have to do something nontrivial when they're swapped or move-assigned or move-constructed, though the move construction can't raise an exception unlike with std::list
19:32:05 <ais523> Rust's solution to that apparently has corner cases where it's unsound, I hope they come up with a good fix soon
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19:49:11 <b_jonas> oh, right. if I want set -e in an interactive shell, as opposed to a HackEso command, I should do it in a parenthisized subshell.
19:49:51 <b_jonas> or in a shell script running in a subshell obviously
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02:22:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> "RAII" is also a bad name. <-- Ra II would be a pretty badass name for an egyptian-style villain, though
02:23:54 <oerjan> hm Ra II is also the name of one of heyerdahl's boats iirc
02:25:31 <HackEso> [U+0049 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I] [U+0049 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0049 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I] [U+0049 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I]
02:26:39 <int-e> Ra II = Ra ⅠⅠ = Ra Ⅱ <-- better?
02:27:13 <oerjan> oh wait it's the guillemets which norwegian wikipedia uses for some reason https://no.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ra_II&redirect=no
02:27:31 <HackEso> [U+2160 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE] [U+2160 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2161 ROMAN NUMERAL TWO] [U+0020 SPACE]
02:29:43 <oerjan> unlike the english wikipedia, the norwegian one seems to include things like plurals more often
02:30:10 <oerjan> e.g. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svaler is plural, corresponding to en:swallow
02:30:57 <oerjan> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stortinget corresponding to en:Storting, except with the definite article suffix
02:31:39 <int-e> Oh the bird, not the verb.
02:33:22 <oerjan> the article also considers the entire family of birds, so it makes some sense
02:33:25 <int-e> the de. version tops this and makes the plural version the main page, while the singular is a disambiguation page.
02:33:47 <int-e> (cf. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwalbe)
02:34:50 <oerjan> ah. the norwegian singular (Svale) is just a redirect to the plural.
02:35:34 <oerjan> ufu is definitely setting things up for an ironic disaster
02:36:17 <oerjan> in some sense, has done so ever since he was introduced
02:44:02 <shachaf> let this = perf_event_open in
02:45:20 <shachaf> I was previously worried it would be a scow API but it seems pretty reasonable.
02:47:12 <shachaf> Also, did you know the syscall() wrapper in libc returns errors via errno rather than actually just wrapping the syscall?
02:47:32 <shachaf> I previously knew this but I keep forgetting it because when I write a syscall wrapper it's reasonable.
02:47:59 <oerjan> . o O ( just say no to errno )
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02:50:17 <int-e> oerjan: err... no?!
02:50:41 <shachaf> `! c syscall(1, 1, "hi\n", 3);
02:50:44 <int-e> That is a terrible pun. I salute you.
02:51:07 <shachaf> Aha. It seems int-e likes that, but not this.
02:51:36 <int-e> I'm not sure "like" is the correct term.
02:52:16 <int-e> fungot: Nobody's like this.
02:52:53 <shachaf> `! c syscall(1, 1, "1", 1);
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02:59:49 <int-e> shachaf: How do you ensure that you got that WRITE?
03:02:17 <kingoffrance> . o O ( i dont know what scow means, but i imagine from context it refers to the cowtalk cow writing an API )
03:04:11 <int-e> `` \? scow # really helpful as always
03:04:13 <HackEso> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
03:06:08 <oerjan> i think cows are generally female, Cows with Guns notwithstanding.
03:06:59 <int-e> I can't wait for the Chickens with Choppers.
03:07:52 <oerjan> wind to the end then hth
03:08:15 <int-e> Though more on topic, the high steaks pun was terrific.
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03:09:52 <oerjan> `slwd scow//s,.$, and an extra half-spin./
03:09:53 <HackEso> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 30: unterminated `s' command
03:10:00 <oerjan> `slwd scow//s,.$, and an extra half-spin.,
03:10:12 <HackEso> scow//Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp and an extra half-spin.
03:10:15 <kingoffrance> "terrific" is strange at first glance, but terror bringing joy is perfectly natural, so i see how the modern definition still has it
03:10:19 <HackEso> scow//Scow (S-cow) is canned join made from cows with a lisp and an extra half-spin.
03:11:41 <oerjan> now with math _and_ physics.
03:11:58 <shachaf> It's not a good pun but it doesn't make me sad like the other one.
03:12:48 <int-e> Wait, who brought the lettuce to the S-cow?
03:13:28 <int-e> Now for the physics angle, hmm.
03:13:50 <int-e> Is it connected to quarks and interlingual?
03:15:18 <oerjan> quarks yes, interlingual not sure
03:15:21 <int-e> If so that's bad enough to make milk curdle.
03:16:08 <int-e> I don't think english really has "quark" in that sense. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curd
03:16:41 <int-e> Hence "interlingual".
03:16:52 <oerjan> oh i didn't think of that at all
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03:17:30 <int-e> Though, hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_(dairy_product)
03:17:32 <oerjan> it's just about the s-, not the -cow, so to speak
03:17:36 <int-e> Maybe I'm just wrong.
03:17:40 <kingoffrance> i imagine degrees from kevin of bacin is like layers of interlingual
03:18:08 <int-e> oerjan: Oh well, maybe I've taken it to a full spin now.
03:18:52 <int-e> Kevin Bacon is an excellent name for a pig.
03:24:02 <oerjan> maybe it should be spinned down instead of up
03:24:03 <zzo38> Freeze Artifact {1UU} Snow Instant ;; Target artifact loses all abilities and has base power 0 until end of turn. Counter all triggered abilities of that artifact, and tap that artifact. ;; Flashback {4UU} ;; Affinity for snow lands
03:28:33 <HackEso> sport <n> divides its input into irc-sized pieces and displays the nth (default first). The pipe version of `1. See also spore.
03:28:59 <int-e> (Port is not a dairy product, fortunately.)
03:30:19 <oerjan> int-e: logically sport is a swine product though.
03:32:49 <int-e> oerjan: I guess "steak" is also interesting in this context.
03:33:21 <oerjan> `slwd scow//s,an .*,spun down by half to remove the scream.,
03:33:24 <HackEso> scow//Scow (S-cow) is canned join made from cows with a lisp and spun down by half to remove the scream.
03:35:15 <oerjan> i am afraid that edit may have done the opposite, alas.
03:35:31 <lambdabot> *** "teak" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:35:32 <lambdabot> n 1: hard strong durable yellowish-brown wood of teak trees;
03:35:32 <lambdabot> resistant to insects and to warping; used for furniture and
03:35:32 <lambdabot> in shipbuilding [syn: {teak}, {teakwood}]
03:36:23 <oerjan> the tense change was obvious when i saw it hth
03:36:47 <oerjan> or well, noun -> verb change
03:41:33 <kingoffrance> this channel is answering all my questions in life today
03:41:34 <oerjan> . o O ( ETHEYJUSTKEEPPILINGON )
03:41:34 <oerjan> int-e: i think a steak pun in this context might be hard to chew and we should table it for later.
03:41:34 <int-e> are you sure you don't want to stable it instead
03:41:51 <kingoffrance> it is common phenomenon restaurants e.g. have a pig with a fork, to advertise bacon; so yes, kevin bacon is his name
03:42:37 <kingoffrance> its supposed to be "umm, im so tasty i could eat myself, dont you want some?"
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03:43:21 <int-e> oerjan: the steak may fall to slumber
03:45:15 <int-e> I'm still looking for a use of "scrying".
03:45:43 <int-e> (By this point I'm cheating, and employing stool support.)
03:46:17 <int-e> `` comm -12 /usr/share/dict/words <(grep ^s /usr/share/dict/words | sed 's=.==' | sort) | wc -c
03:46:18 <HackEso> comm: file 1 is not in sorted order \ 0
03:46:33 <int-e> `` comm -12 <(sort /usr/share/dict/words) <(grep ^s /usr/share/dict/words | sed 's=.==' | sort) | wc -c
03:47:11 <int-e> `` echo $(comm -12 <(sort /usr/share/dict/words) <(grep ^s /usr/share/dict/words | sed 's=.==' | sort) | shuf)
03:47:12 <HackEso> patters lightness's miles hatters hot cores hare ow trident lab wine lop age nagged purred cowl have pins tout's ell's park's allies ledge's cams late lump's tall kidding cram lob's loped lick horn tumble's molders ail wished crawling hoot tumbler's tow potty tuck melt's weeping he'll handy crews evens wears mocking ampler wagging pawned pout's hod crew parring tared paces wig hale lap table top's mocked trapped lump unless cone's molder's ton
03:47:13 <oerjan> just keep swiping the data
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03:48:33 <int-e> actually for a random selection that contains an amazing number of candidates we've already covered.
03:51:36 <oerjan> now find a sentence that makes sense both with and without prepending s to every word :P
03:52:50 <oerjan> i suppose there might not be enough connective words starting in s to make it work for long
03:54:51 <shachaf> Hmm, say I have struct { T *p; int len, cap; } arr; defined locally.
03:55:01 <shachaf> I pass &arr.p to some other function.
03:55:07 <shachaf> Can it get at len and cap without UB?
03:59:01 <kingoffrance> its difficult to answer that since i may hold things hostage, but when i do it its not called piracy
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04:20:41 <oerjan> `! c return *(int *)0;
04:20:43 <HackEso> /hackenv/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 68 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
04:21:02 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/%21
04:23:59 <oerjan> `../hackenv/ibin/c return *(int *)0;
04:24:00 <HackEso> ../hackenv/ibin/c? No such file or directory
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04:24:10 <oerjan> `/hackenv/ibin/c return *(int *)0;
04:24:14 <HackEso> /hackenv/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 62 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
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04:28:10 <oerjan> `slwd lib/interp//6iecho $ARGFILE
04:28:19 <oerjan> `t sled lib/interp//6iecho $ARGFILE
04:28:21 <HackEso> lib/interp//#!/bin/sh \ \ export I_CMD="$0" \ export I_ARG="$1" \ export ARG_FILE="/tmp/input.$$" \ echo $ARGFILE \ \ get_arg() { \ #if expr "$I_ARG" : "http://" > /dev/null \ #then \ # wget $WGET_OPTIONS "$I_ARG" -O "$ARG_FILE" \ #else \ printf '%s' "$I_ARG" > "$ARG_FILE" \ #fi \ } \ \ clean_arg() { \ rm -f "$ARG_FILE" \ } \ \ interp_stdin() { \ get_arg \ $1 < "$ARG_FILE" 2>&1 \ clean_arg \ }
04:28:36 <oerjan> `/hackenv/ibin/c return *(int *)0;
04:28:38 <HackEso> \ /hackenv/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 62 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
04:29:27 <oerjan> `` /hackenv/ibin/c 'return *(int *)0;' 2>/dev/null
04:29:29 <HackEso> \ /hackenv/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 66 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
04:32:57 <HackEso> /hackenv/lib/interp//#!/bin/sh \ \ export I_CMD="$0" \ export I_ARG="$1" \ export ARG_FILE="/tmp/input.$$" \ echo $ARGFILE \ \ get_arg() { \ #if expr "$I_ARG" : "http://" > /dev/null \ #then \ # wget $WGET_OPTIONS "$I_ARG" -O "$ARG_FILE" \ #else \ printf '%s' "$I_ARG" > "$ARG_FILE" \ #fi \ } \ \ clean_arg() { \ rm -f "$ARG_FILE" \ } \ \ interp_stdin() { \ get_arg \ $1 < "$ARG_FILE" 2>&1 \ c
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05:02:16 <esowiki> [[IBC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67616&oldid=67607 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /* Cat program */
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06:13:05 <oerjan> <FireFly> wib_jonas: ah <-- scowrevs is generally stupid revisions that affected a lot of files and then got reverted, so it doesn't really tell you anything useful but clutters up what you're really looking for
06:13:35 <oerjan> nearly all of the time
06:15:06 <oerjan> if there are any ranges in there that _didn't_ end up changing nothing, that may be considered an error
06:18:29 <oerjan> `le/rn scowrevs///hackenv/share/scowrevs is a list of repository revision ranges that affected a lot of files but in the end changed nothing (usually because of a revert at the end). Most of our custom repository lookup commands ignore these to reduce noise.
06:18:32 <HackEso> Learned 'scowrevs': /hackenv/share/scowrevs is a list of repository revision ranges that affected a lot of files but in the end changed nothing (usually because of a revert at the end). Most of our custom repository lookup commands ignore these to reduce noise.
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08:35:51 <timofonic> zzo38: Hello. Where's Aimfiz and Fweep source code? I cant f8nd it on GitLab, GitHub or similar. Do you know about dreammaster's ScummGlk in the ScummVM project? There's #scummvm IRC channel. Disclaimer: I'm not part of the ScummVM project, just a mere user and fan of IF and Point & Click Adventure Games.
08:38:06 <timofonic> I tried to use a Gopher proxy to look at your site, no success at all. You made lots of nntp links on it
08:54:49 <oerjan> <myname> I suppose, if you pronounce gif as jif, you should pronounce fungot as funjot <-- i don't think that's orthographically plausible, g before "o" is never soft.
08:54:50 <fungot> oerjan: could you juse for fun _only_ switch the backend to accomodate the fnord of a
08:55:18 <oerjan> it would have to be spelled fungeot for that.
08:59:46 <oerjan> also, g before "a" shouldn't be, but someone had to invent "gaol".
09:00:29 * oerjan waits for the avalanche of counterexamples
09:01:10 <oerjan> well, unless o or a are part of diphthong, that could mess things up.
09:03:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: for "ga", Alan's pronunciation dictionary says "mortgagor" but I've no idea what that means
09:04:41 <b_jonas> and for "ga", it says "algae, baggage,
09:05:31 <b_jonas> gaol, gaolbird, gaolbreak, gaoler, margarine"
09:06:45 <b_jonas> nowait, the baggage is one of the many false positives too, where the other g is pronounced soft
09:07:19 <b_jonas> in that case, the counterexamples are "mortgagor" for "go" and "algae, gaol, gaolbird, gaolbreak, gaoler, margarine" for "ga"
09:08:58 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#lnEc for meta-info on Alan's pronunciation dictionary
09:11:41 <oerjan> algae has a dipthong, but margarine seems right
09:12:09 <b_jonas> it doesn't seem right to me, English is just pronouncing it wrong
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09:13:14 <oerjan> i know, but it seems like a counterexample
09:14:47 <oerjan> mortgagor is illogical, although Agoran
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09:35:14 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67617&oldid=67034 * Quadril-Is * (+241) /* Hello, world! */
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10:26:03 <esowiki> [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67618&oldid=53676 * Quadril-Is * (+53) /* Cat program */
10:31:25 <esowiki> [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67619&oldid=67618 * Quadril-Is * (-53) nope doesn
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11:58:55 <timofonic> zzo38: If you are interested, dreammaster is usually there (depending on each timezone, of course). I also read the IRC logs of both channels, ScummVM developers also usually read the #scummvm channel IRC logs too. What do you think? :)
12:02:05 <timofonic> Why do you people care about pronunciation? Do you find geeks in person to be able to talk about this stuff in person and not only text?
12:03:07 <kingoffrance> although i am not in that group discussing, pronunciation is everything for certain things
12:04:07 <kingoffrance> you have to say magic words correctly or they do strange things
12:04:28 <kingoffrance> and you have to purposely say them strangely if you want correct things
12:06:06 <timofonic> Most personally important stuff for me is in written form, anyway
12:17:54 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ /ha
12:18:17 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/nur: line 2: : command not found \ /hackenv/bin/nur: line 2: : command not found \ /hackenv/bin/nur: line 2: : command not found \ /hackenv/bin/nur: line 2: : command not found \ /hackenv/bin/nur: line 2: : command not found \ 1/0:
12:18:30 <HackEso> 1/1:gamemanj//gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here. He will overthink everything, except whether overthinking is wrong. \ apt-get//apt-get installs whatever you wanted, plus whatever Mark Shuttleworth wanted. \ tswett//tswett is livin' it up with the penguins. He's a title under the cruxite in the lathe. \ baba//BABA IS ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ hug//hug? ¯\_/¯\(°_o)/¯\_/¯
12:18:41 <shachaf> Right. 5 is a run, not a nur.
12:20:17 <kingoffrance> re: pronunciation, also, to correctly satirize something you have to know it well enough
12:20:55 <kingoffrance> so the people so concerned may be in agreement on the worthlessness of pronunciation
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15:36:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hex96 * New user account
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15:42:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67620&oldid=67602 * Hex96 * (+148) /* Introductions */
15:42:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67621&oldid=60871 * Hex96 * (+272) /* I think I got the main parts down */ new section
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16:16:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67622&oldid=67621 * Hex96 * (+65) /* I think I got the main parts down */
16:22:39 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67623&oldid=67610 * DmilkaSTD * (+320)
16:22:58 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67624&oldid=67623 * DmilkaSTD * (+1)
16:25:15 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67625&oldid=67624 * DmilkaSTD * (+15)
16:29:26 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67626&oldid=67625 * DmilkaSTD * (+2)
16:35:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67627&oldid=67622 * Hex96 * (+477) /* Attempted programs */ new section
16:36:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67628&oldid=67627 * Hex96 * (+5) /* Attempted programs */
16:37:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67629&oldid=67628 * Hex96 * (+25) /* Attempted programs */
16:56:08 <cpressey> arseniiv: From what I understood from reading about HOAS, the powerful thing about full-blown HOAS is that it treats two terms as equivalent if one can be α-, β-, or η- converted to the other. Unification modulo αβη-conversion, in other words.
16:57:10 <cpressey> And that's what makes it need higher-order unification to work.
16:58:24 <cpressey> But I think that's probably far more powerfully expressive than I'd ever need or want!
17:01:08 <arseniiv> cpressey: hmm wait, how is equivalence defined there?
17:02:27 <cpressey> I think you could say, if, by the rules of lambda calculus, you could reduce some term X to some other term Y, then HOAS treats them as effectively the same term.
17:03:25 <cpressey> I mean, that was my understanding of it, anyway.
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17:13:25 <arseniiv> cpressey: do you mean, computationally? then it should be a broader equivalence, I think…
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17:18:52 <cpressey> arseniiv: It may be that I fail to see all the implications, but I can't see how it could be anything other than computational, in this sense: there's nothing else in the lambda calculus besides α-, β-, and η- conversion, so if you permit all of those to happen when considering if two terms are equivalent, then... well, you allow arbitrary computations.
17:21:42 <arseniiv> cpressey: I think I have seen two non-αβη-convertible combinators with the same behavior. Hm maybe two divergent ones, let’s say Ω and maybe YI?
17:22:51 <zzo38> timofonic: What is the context of that? What is it about?
17:23:31 <zzo38> O, I found your previous message too now
17:23:42 <cpressey> arseniiv: That seems likely. (It seems like it should be the implication of some famouse theorem maybe) But even when they are αβη-convertible, the problem of actually converting one into the other is undecidable in general.
17:23:58 <zzo38> The answer is I have lost the source code for Fweep and Aimfiz
17:24:54 <zzo38> Does the gopher proxy break when there are NNTP links? If not, then the stuff other than the NNTP link should still work isn't it?
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17:28:26 <zzo38> The NNTP links are listed under the "ZZ Zero" menu; are you interested in ZZ Zero?
17:28:55 <zzo38> (I should perhaps add some additional information there too; that menu does not describe much of what ZZ Zero is.)
17:30:46 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67630 * Hex96 * (+106) Created page with "I have a challenge for you, I call it the r challenge, get input and print it backwards. Thats it"
17:35:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67631&oldid=67629 * Dart * (+42)
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17:49:50 <zzo38> (ZZ Zero is a ZZT-like game creation system. If you have used ZZT or MegaZeux or ZIG or other ZZT-likes then maybe you can understand what I mean by this)
17:51:32 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67632&oldid=67630 * Palaiologos * (+150)
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18:23:03 <int-e> "higher order abstract syntax"
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18:32:31 <arseniiv> I thought that was an acronym of HOAS Often Are Serious
18:33:01 <arseniiv> or maybe sentimental or serialized
18:35:14 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67633&oldid=67632 * Hex96 * (+26)
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18:41:07 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67634&oldid=67633 * Hex96 * (+104)
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18:43:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67635 * Hex96 * (+77) Created page with "Hiya, I make "burn" theories. I also have a challenge. It is in my user page."
18:48:34 <esowiki> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67636&oldid=31184 * Hex96 * (+53)
18:52:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67637&oldid=67631 * Hex96 * (+137) /* Attempted programs */
18:52:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67638&oldid=67637 * Hex96 * (+5)
18:52:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67639&oldid=67638 * Hex96 * (+0)
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18:58:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67640&oldid=67639 * Hex96 * (-6) /* Attempted programs */
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19:46:44 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67641&oldid=67634 * Hex96 * (+39)
19:48:18 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67642&oldid=67641 * Hex96 * (+481)
19:49:11 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67643&oldid=67642 * Hex96 * (+13)
19:49:44 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67644&oldid=67643 * Hex96 * (+0)
19:51:07 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67645&oldid=67644 * Palaiologos * (+138)
19:51:19 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67646&oldid=67645 * Palaiologos * (+104) Forgot to sign :p
19:57:42 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67647&oldid=67646 * Hex96 * (+65)
19:59:01 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67648&oldid=67647 * Hex96 * (+24)
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20:23:17 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: how was the incineration? I hope you payed attention to safety.
20:24:39 <kspalaiologos> I've made a few decisions regarding the bot already so I might be able to rewrite it pretty quickly as I get to doing it lol
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20:32:52 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67649&oldid=67648 * JonoCode9374 * (+219)
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23:12:38 <fizzie> ...whoop, keyboards are hard.
23:12:52 <HackEso> 1/1:>:-D \ >:-D \ >:-D \ >:-D \ >:-D
23:13:08 <HackEso> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
23:13:12 <HackEso> `1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4.
23:13:20 <HackEso> `2 <cmd> is equivalent to `1 <cmd>, except that it starts displaying the _second_ output piece. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `1.
23:13:24 <HackEso> `4 <cmd> is equivalent to `5 <cmd>, except that it only repeats 4 times. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `5.
23:13:30 <HackEso> `5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2.
23:13:42 <HackEso> `3 is the obvious generalization of `2 or `4, trying too hard to confuse everyone.
23:14:47 <fizzie> Anyway, what I was going to do was comment on that thing from -blah.
23:14:59 <fizzie> Which is an odd error.
23:15:07 <fizzie> Presumably it's trying to execute the empty string.
23:15:08 <shachaf> Is it trying to execute a directory?
23:15:19 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin? Permission denied
23:15:21 <fizzie> Yes, I think that would follow.
23:15:54 <shachaf> `! c execve("", (char *[]){}, 0);
23:16:06 <fizzie> Please don't make /hackenv/bin a file just to test that.
23:16:19 <shachaf> `! c execve("", (char *[]){}, 0); printf("error: %s\n", strerror(errno));
23:16:30 <shachaf> `! c execve("", (char *[]){}, 0); printf("error: %d\n", errno);
23:16:42 <fizzie> `! c printf("test\n");
23:17:02 <fizzie> I remember at least one of these turned the \n into a newline even when inside a string literal.
23:17:41 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ . ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/interp \ interp_file "${HACKENV-/hackenv}/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp c"
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23:17:54 <fizzie> `! c execve("", (char *[]){}, 0); perror("execve");
23:17:56 <HackEso> execve: No such file or directory
23:18:04 <shachaf> `cat /hackenv/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
23:18:07 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ LANG="$1" \ echo >>"$2" \ \ case "$LANG" in \ c) \ HEAD='#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\n#include <string.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) {' \ TAIL='; return 0; }' \ EXT='c' \ GCC='gcc' \ FLAGS='-lm -std=gnu99' \ ;; \ \ c++) \ HEAD='#include <iostream>\n#include <cstdio>\n#include <cstdlib>\n#include <cstring
23:18:20 <fizzie> Anyway, thanks to the path search ` is not a straightforward execve.
23:18:52 <shachaf> `! c execlo("", 0); perror("exec");
23:18:56 <shachaf> `! c execlp("", 0); perror("exec");
23:18:57 <HackEso> exec: No such file or directory
23:19:01 <fizzie> Since "" does not contain a '/', it would try to execute "/hackenv/bin/", "/bin/" and "/usr/bin/" in order.
23:19:08 <fizzie> I guess that's technically a bug.
23:19:10 <shachaf> `! c execlp("/hackenv", 0); perror("exec");
23:19:23 <shachaf> It must be doing a different path search from execlp, if that's what's going's on's.
23:19:36 <fizzie> Yes, it does a manual path search.
23:20:02 <fizzie> Because exec*p is hardcoded to use /bin/sh for files that are executable but not #!something.
23:20:17 <fizzie> And longstanding tradition has those must be executed with /bin/bash.
23:20:25 <shachaf> A manual path search? Does that mean it's searching in /usr/share/man/?
23:21:52 <shachaf> `! c execve("/hackenv/bin/run", (char *[]){0}, 0); perror("that does not compute");
23:21:54 <HackEso> that does not compute: Exec format error
23:22:36 <fizzie> "p - execlp(), execvp(), execvpe() -- In addition, certain errors are treated specially. If the header of a file isn't recognized (the attempted execve(2) failed with the error ENOEXEC), these functions will execute the shell (/bin/sh) with the path of the file as its first argument."
23:24:00 <fizzie> It's all in https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/init.c#L248
23:24:51 <shachaf> Golly. So many malloc calls.
23:25:23 <shachaf> It's kind of funny to use malloc to allocate arguments to exec.
23:25:46 <fizzie> I did in fact consider using a VLA there.
23:26:09 <shachaf> Well, that could cause a stack overflow or something.
23:26:36 <fizzie> In a general case. For HackEso specifically, there's the limit from the length of an IRC message.
23:26:59 <shachaf> But of course you could use a stack other than the %rsp one.
23:27:46 <fizzie> There is in fact a VLA in there, `char target[sizeof "/host/" + strlen(mnt->target)];`
23:28:27 <shachaf> I wish the idiom of allocating your own arena was more common.
23:28:40 <shachaf> I guess glibc has obstack.
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01:17:42 <HackEso> 1/2:monads//Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras. \ tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. \ lie group//Lie groups are groups that try b
01:17:45 <HackEso> 2/2:eing too smooth for their own good. \ gamemanj//gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here. He will overthink everything, except whether overthinking is wrong. \ vanila//In a cruel twist of fate, vanila has come to #esoteric in search of wisdom.
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03:11:41 <shachaf> int-e: So I fixed my thing to do what I think is correct FirstUIP.
03:11:52 <shachaf> It still takes much longer when doing clause learning.
03:13:04 <shachaf> On the same instance, MiniSat says it deleted only <25% of its conflict literals (I think?), so I'm not sure deletion is the big missing thing here.
03:13:33 <shachaf> But also it's not learning as many clauses as I am so maybe it's something along those lines.
03:13:48 <esowiki> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67650&oldid=67636 * Oerjan * (-53) Undo revision 67636 by [[Special:Contributions/Hex96|Hex96]] ([[User talk:Hex96|talk]]) (Wild speculation doesn't belong in the official information sections.)
03:16:19 <oerjan> apparently there weren't any sections, blame my brain
03:17:55 <shachaf> There were no sections, so you're issuing a retraction?
03:17:57 <oerjan> what is it with people making up theories without first understanding what's already known?
03:18:07 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
03:34:26 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, hmm, I'm learning duplicate clauses, that's not good.
03:34:31 <shachaf> Probably everything I said is nonsense.
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04:24:11 <kingoffrance> i dunno, same reason noone pays much attention to atlas holding the earth up. what if he has to scratch his nose? kablooie
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04:44:25 <oerjan> kingoffrance: i'm pretty sure in ancient greek mythology atlas held the _heavens_ up.
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05:04:24 <elliemae> Would anyone here mind looking over my javagony code and see about obtimising?
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09:05:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67651&oldid=67640 * Dart * (+363)
09:13:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67652&oldid=67651 * Dart * (+40) I also moved a section if that's okay
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11:36:56 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67653&oldid=67626 * DmilkaSTD * (+397)
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12:10:09 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67654&oldid=67653 * DmilkaSTD * (+9)
12:10:15 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67655&oldid=67649 * A * (+209) Shouldn't it be harder?
12:11:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67656&oldid=67655 * A * (+149)
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12:14:04 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67657&oldid=67656 * A * (+85) Add a link to this challenge
12:25:25 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67658&oldid=67657 * A * (+52)
12:34:49 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67659&oldid=67658 * A * (+490)
12:35:10 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67660&oldid=67659 * A * (+149) /* Python, 185 bytes */
12:36:24 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67661&oldid=67660 * A * (-15) /* Python, 185 bytes */
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13:03:11 <ais523> `` cd /tmp; printf "#if u'\\0'-1<0\n#
13:03:13 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
13:04:37 <ais523> `` cd /tmp; printf "#include <assert.h>\n#if u'\\0'-1<0\n#error assertion failure\n#endif\nint main(void)\n{\nassert(u'\\0'-1<0);\n}" > t.c; gcc -std=c11 -pedantic t.c; ./a.out;
13:04:39 <HackEso> t.c:2:5: warning: null character(s) preserved in literal \ #if u' '-1<0 \ ^ \ t.c: In function ‘main’: \ t.c:7:8: warning: null character(s) preserved in literal \ assert(u' '-1<0); \ ^
13:04:58 <ais523> `` cd /tmp; printf "#include <assert.h>\n#if u'\\\\0'-1<0\n#error assertion failure\n#endif\nint main(void)\n{\nassert(u'\\\\0'-1<0);\n}" > t.c; gcc -std=c11 -pedantic t.c; ./a.out;
13:07:04 <wib_jonas> yeah, I should make a proper wrapper for testing C snippets
13:08:57 <shachaf> Is there a thing like `! c that supports #include?
13:10:54 <wib_jonas> shachaf: no, that's the wrapper that I should write
13:11:18 <wib_jonas> except for the part where Eelis says that geordi will never support compiling C, only C++
13:12:18 <wib_jonas> I'll have to review the tokenizer rules of C and C++ for that though, to figure out when exactly an apostrophe is part of a numeric literal versus when it's a separator for a character literal
13:18:40 <ais523> wib_jonas: more readable: https://tio.run/##VYy7CgIxEEX7@YqBLXa3iGxqV3/DxmaYJOtATCQPEcRfNwa0sbkcOIfLamNubZDAvhqLK@VsU9ldjjCIwzqelxEValxxgcGmFBN@E4kBHYmvyXYRjDgACQWvJGG6RzEzPAF/8fR3NO/h1dqbnactN3Ui7/vaR0nUlMrFHFjrTjdrKBThDw
13:19:20 <ais523> (this example comes from a defect report against C11, the committee decided it was intended behaviour, but it looks really weird)
13:19:22 <wib_jonas> ais523: ok, but it's not specifically this C program that I care about
13:43:17 <fizzie> `cc #include <assert.h> \n #if u'\0' - 1 < 0 \n #error assertion failure \n #endif \n int main(void) { assert(u'\0' - 1 < 0); }
13:43:43 <fizzie> There's already that one, if you just want gcc -std=c11 with a hard newline support, no automatic nothing.
13:44:20 <wib_jonas> that does look useful, though I may still try to make a custom version
13:44:39 <fizzie> Granted, it's a bit problematic if there's a \n inside a string literal. But you can always work around that, e.g. by making it \x0a or \012 instead.
13:45:02 <fizzie> (I did like ##c's candide, which had a lot of DWIM.)
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13:56:51 <myname> idea: compiler from a defined tikz-subset to funciton
13:59:40 <wib_jonas> hmm, C++ tokenization is nasty. maybe ais was right about recognizing only the backslash-space
14:01:53 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67662&oldid=67654 * DmilkaSTD * (+334)
14:03:30 <wib_jonas> I don't think I could implement C++ tokenization correctly. it looks too complicated.
14:05:21 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67663&oldid=67611 * DmilkaSTD * (+24)
14:06:02 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67664 * DmilkaSTD * (+43) Created page with "My esolangs: [[Esomachine]] [[Code is eso]]"
14:06:13 <fizzie> The "add main wrapper but only if it doesn't exist" and "add default include files if no #include directives" features are convenient. candide also did the "add main wrapper around top-level code while still allowing function definitions", but that's more complicated.
14:06:26 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67665&oldid=67664 * DmilkaSTD * (+8)
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14:21:14 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67666&oldid=67665 * DmilkaSTD * (+107)
14:21:50 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67667&oldid=67662 * DmilkaSTD * (+41)
14:22:50 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67668&oldid=67663 * DmilkaSTD * (-24)
14:27:19 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67669&oldid=67667 * DmilkaSTD * (+38)
14:29:59 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67670&oldid=67666 * DmilkaSTD * (+56)
14:39:29 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67671&oldid=67668 * DmilkaSTD * (+62)
14:40:33 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67672&oldid=67671 * DmilkaSTD * (-2)
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15:29:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67673&oldid=67652 * Hex96 * (+91) /* I think I got the main parts down */
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17:03:29 <esowiki> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67674&oldid=67461 * Dart * (+114)
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18:18:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67675&oldid=67673 * Dart * (+1241) /* Random Observations and Guesses */
18:20:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67676&oldid=67675 * Hex96 * (+2)
18:22:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67677&oldid=67676 * Hex96 * (-4) /* Attempted programs */
18:22:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67678&oldid=67677 * Hex96 * (+11)
18:22:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67679&oldid=67678 * Dart * (+0)
18:22:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67680&oldid=67679 * Hex96 * (-96) /* Attempted programs */
18:27:59 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67681&oldid=67661 * Hex96 * (+30) /* Python, 175 bytes */
18:29:19 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67682&oldid=67681 * Hex96 * (+36)
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18:47:22 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67683 * Hex96 * (+737) Created page with "==Intro== ===what is Tttt?== Tttt is a programming language that is so simple that it has 7 characters: 1.) a 2.) b 3.) c All the way to g. ===the data=== The data is kind of..."
18:47:40 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67684&oldid=67683 * Hex96 * (-1) /* =what is Tttt? */
18:48:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67685 * Hex96 * (+26) Created page with "Ttttt will bee coded soon."
18:49:03 <int-e> fungot: Do you bee code or do you bee funge?
18:49:03 <fungot> int-e: who needs fictive horror stories when we have medicine... http://216.239.59.104/ search?q=cache:ifrvmgi6qmkj:www.cfwf.ca/ farmj/ fnord)
18:49:16 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67686&oldid=67684 * Hex96 * (+2)
18:50:23 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67687&oldid=67682 * Hex96 * (+9)
18:50:34 <int-e> fungot: That's a deeply unsettling observation.
18:50:34 <fungot> int-e: ( define tolerance 0.000000001) 4
18:54:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: I just checked, if I use the web edit interface on a file in /hackenv/tmp , then when I fetch, it mangles the non-ascii characters in the sense of reencoding it to iso-8859-1 to utf-8, which makes the file longer on each save
18:54:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: this isn't urgent, but could you please fix that?
18:59:50 <HackEso> [U+1D4F MODIFIER LETTER SMALL K]
19:03:59 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that means it's primarily for IPA-like pronunciation systems, where you suffix random superscripts to a letter to modify it
19:04:36 <b_jonas> or put crazy accents above or below it, including accents that aren't userd for anything but those pronunciation systems
19:04:45 <int-e> So I see. It came up on ##math :-/
19:04:58 <int-e> (used as an exponent)
19:05:19 <int-e> And of course it's rendered as a box here :)
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19:21:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67688&oldid=67685 * Hex96 * (+555)
19:21:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67689&oldid=67688 * Hex96 * (+0)
19:22:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67690&oldid=67689 * Hex96 * (+46)
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19:25:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67691&oldid=67690 * Hex96 * (+78)
19:25:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67692&oldid=67691 * Hex96 * (-1)
19:35:10 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67693&oldid=67585 * Hex96 * (+59) /* General languages */
19:36:05 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67694&oldid=67687 * Int-e * (+323) nitfuck brainpicking
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19:49:24 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67695&oldid=67686 * Hex96 * (+309)
19:49:57 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67696&oldid=67695 * Hex96 * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
19:50:19 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67697&oldid=67696 * Hex96 * (+31) /* Hello, World! */
20:01:59 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67698&oldid=66699 * Dart * (+1330)
20:05:27 <b_jonas> `fetch /hackenv/bin/whatis https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whatis
20:05:28 <HackEso> 2019-12-05 20:05:28 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whatis [1160/1160] -> "/hackenv/bin/whatis" [1]
20:05:40 <HackEso> WELCOME(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel, if they can't read lowercase letters \ WeLcOmE(1hackeso) - WeLcOmE NeW UsEr tO IrC ChAnNeL \ Welcome(1hackeso) - no description \ wElCoMe(1hackeso) - wElCoMe nEw uSeR To iRc cHaNnEl \ welcome(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel
20:05:44 <HackEso> sed(1) - stream editor for filtering and transforming text \ sed(1p) - stream editor \ sed(1hackeso) - no description
20:05:49 <HackEso> sed(1hackeso) - no description
20:05:52 <HackEso> sed(1) - stream editor for filtering and transforming text
20:05:55 <HackEso> printf(1) - format and print data \ printf(1p) - write formatted output \ printf(3) - formatted output conversion \ printf(3p) - print formatted output \ printf(3glibc) - Formatted Output Functions
20:06:05 <HackEso> printf(1) - format and print data \ printf(3) - formatted output conversion
20:06:10 <HackEso> printf(1p) - write formatted output \ printf(3p) - print formatted output
20:06:12 <HackEso> printf(1) - format and print data
20:06:15 <HackEso> printf(1p) - write formatted output
20:06:26 <HackEso> welcome(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel
20:06:54 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67699&oldid=67698 * Dart * (+59)
20:06:54 <HackEso> PRIVMSG: nothing appropriate.
20:07:01 <b_jonas> whatis now takes a suffix or number category plus suffix in parenthesis after a word, in which case the lookup is restricted to that suffix or category plus suffix, and the search is case sensitive
20:07:16 <b_jonas> int-e: the next step is that I'll make an addwhatis command to add whatis entries
20:07:28 <b_jonas> because we're missing some and don't have a convenient way to add them or edit them
20:07:41 <b_jonas> in particular, we need an entry for whatis(1hackeso)
20:07:54 <HackEso> ?(1hackeso) - print wisdom by name \ ?(8lambdabot) - compose tree of lambdabot commands
20:07:58 <HackEso> ?(1hackeso) - print wisdom by name
20:09:38 <b_jonas> it will also need a switch to remove a whatis entry
20:10:52 <HackEso> WELCOME(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel, if they can't read lowercase letters \ WeLcOmE(1hackeso) - WeLcOmE NeW UsEr tO IrC ChAnNeL \ Welcome(1hackeso) - no description \ wElCoMe(1hackeso) - wElCoMe nEw uSeR To iRc cHaNnEl \ welcome(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel
20:10:56 <HackEso> welcome(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel
20:27:13 <b_jonas> what should be the option letter to delete entries rather than add?
20:28:51 <b_jonas> or should that be an entirely separate executable?
20:31:53 <b_jonas> oh, I could just make it delete a whatis if you only give the name and category with no (space hyphen space body) after
21:01:28 <b_jonas> `fetch /hackenv/bin/addwhatis https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/addwhatis
21:01:29 <HackEso> 2019-12-05 21:01:29 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/addwhatis [1814/1814] -> "/hackenv/bin/addwhatis" [1]
21:01:34 <HackEso> whatis(1) - display one-line manual page descriptions
21:02:07 <b_jonas> `addwhatis whatis(1hackeso) - display one-line manual page descriptions
21:02:09 <HackEso> addwhatis? Permission denied
21:02:23 <b_jonas> ``` chmod -c a+x /hackenv/bin/addwhatis
21:02:25 <HackEso> mode of '/hackenv/bin/addwhatis' changed from 0644 (rw-r--r--) to 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
21:02:29 <b_jonas> `addwhatis whatis(1hackeso) - display one-line manual page descriptions
21:02:31 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'whatis(1hackeso)'
21:02:35 <HackEso> whatis(1) - display one-line manual page descriptions \ whatis(1hackeso) - display one-line manual page descriptions
21:02:41 <HackEso> whatis(1hackeso) - display one-line manual page descriptions
21:03:13 <b_jonas> `addwhatis addwhatis(1hackeso) - modify the database of one-line manual page descriptions
21:03:16 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'addwhatis(1hackeso)'
21:03:22 <HackEso> @(1hackeso) - no description \ @(8lambdabot) - compose tree of lambdabot commands
21:03:59 <b_jonas> `addwhatis @(1hackeso) - run a command but address an irc user with the output
21:04:03 <HackEso> addwhatis: replaced '@(1hackeso)'
21:04:13 <HackEso> @wib_jonas? No such file or directory
21:04:16 <HackEso> wib_jonas: @(1hackeso) - run a command but address an irc user with the output \ @(8lambdabot) - compose tree of lambdabot commands
21:05:58 <HackEso> Welcome To The International Hub For Esoteric Programming Language Design And Deployment! For More Information, Check Out Our Wiki: <Https://Esolangs.Org/>. (For The Other Kind Of Esoterica, Try #Esoteric On EFnet Or DALnet.)
21:06:04 <HackEso> WELCOME(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel, if they can't read lowercase letters \ WeLcOmE(1hackeso) - WeLcOmE NeW UsEr tO IrC ChAnNeL \ Welcome(1hackeso) - no description \ wElCoMe(1hackeso) - wElCoMe nEw uSeR To iRc cHaNnEl \ welcome(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel
21:06:22 <b_jonas> `addwhatis Welcome(1hackeso) - Welcome New User To Irc Channel
21:06:24 <HackEso> addwhatis: replaced 'Welcome(1hackeso)'
21:06:34 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:06:55 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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21:06:59 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf quine fdip
21:11:08 <b_jonas> TODO: add non-builtin fungot commands to whatis
21:11:08 <fungot> b_jonas: i rather think ruby succeeds at those and is quite incoherent. with a hard drive a lot. that's why there are so many...?
21:47:31 <HackEso> Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
21:47:52 <b_jonas> Should that mention that ruby is quite incoherent?
21:51:17 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67700 * JonoCode9374 * (+3065) Created page with "'''Intcode''' is an esoteric programming language created purely to annoy programmers competing in the [https://adventofcode.com/ Advent of Code 2019]. It was featured on days..."
21:52:20 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67701&oldid=67700 * JonoCode9374 * (-2)
22:46:03 <b_jonas> `addwhatis asmbf(1hackeso) - no description
22:46:10 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'asmbf(1hackeso)'
22:46:12 <b_jonas> `addwhatis asmbfx(1hackeso) - no description
22:46:15 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'asmbfx(1hackeso)'
22:46:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Technical Limitations * New user account
22:46:21 <b_jonas> `addwhatis bfasm(1hackeso) - no description
22:46:23 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'bfasm(1hackeso)'
22:46:50 <b_jonas> `addwhatis bfi(1hackeso) - no description
22:46:52 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'bfi(1hackeso)'
23:05:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67702&oldid=67620 * Technical Limitations * (+247)
23:06:38 <esowiki> [[LISP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67703&oldid=67589 * Technical Limitations * (+2) Changed redirect target from [[Lisp]] to [[Lisp2d]]
23:19:05 <esowiki> [[Aargh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67704 * Technical Limitations * (+19) Redirected page to [[Argh!]]
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23:36:32 <fizzie> b_jonas: That's probably fixable, I'm guessing it's just a wrong content-type thing somewhere. I did also look at whether it could be made properly binary-safe, and that seemed harder. Unless I define some sort of encoding for what gets presented in the form form.
23:38:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: for more binary safe, you could an option between utf-8 and iso-8859-1 encoding
23:38:52 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if it would be entirely binary safe, a browser will likely still mangle some things
23:39:52 <b_jonas> in any case, we no longer need to `edit /share/whatis because I added a command for that
23:40:16 <b_jonas> but that's an easy case, because whatises are supposed to be all short lines
23:40:28 <b_jonas> `addwhatis wisdom(5hackeso) - no description
23:40:31 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'wisdom(5hackeso)'
23:40:33 <b_jonas> `addwhatis tmflry(5hackeso) - no description
23:40:35 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'tmflry(5hackeso)'
23:40:37 <b_jonas> `addwhatis quotes(5hackeso) - no description
23:40:39 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'quotes(5hackeso)'
23:40:40 <b_jonas> `addwhatis whatis(5hackeso) - no description
23:40:42 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'whatis(5hackeso)'
23:43:12 <HackEso> c(1egobot) - no description
23:43:16 <HackEso> brachylog: nothing appropriate.
23:44:32 <b_jonas> `addwhatis brachylog(1egobot) - Brachylog, a Prolog-like golf language
23:44:34 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'brachylog(1egobot)'
23:46:48 <HackEso> cc(1hackeso) - no description
23:47:27 <b_jonas> that is a rather ugly name, shadowing another standard utility
23:48:51 <b_jonas> `addwhatis t(1hackeso) - run a command with the working directory set to /hackenv
23:48:53 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 't(1hackeso)'
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00:48:23 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67705&oldid=67609 * JonoCode9374 * (+501) /* Java */
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02:02:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[LISP]]": Broken redirect: Lisp is not generally considered esoteric. No useful place to point this redirect currently exists on this wiki, so just delete.
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02:17:27 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67706&oldid=67693 * Oerjan * (+3) Orst and fix name
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02:29:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67707&oldid=67635 * Oerjan * (+2192) Editing of other people's user pages is generally discouraged, so I'm moving stuff to the talk page (yeah it's a paradox).
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02:30:38 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67708&oldid=67694 * Oerjan * (-2066) Editing of other people's user pages is generally discouraged, so I'm moving stuff to the talk page (yeah it's a paradox).
02:33:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67709&oldid=67707 * Oerjan * (+2) Move signatures to end of contributions
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02:45:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67710&oldid=67709 * Oerjan * (+138) Add unsigned for the moved content that was made by talk page owner, indent for threading
03:00:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67711&oldid=67680 * Oerjan * (+289) /* One-eyed representations */ Colors?
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03:07:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67712&oldid=67711 * Oerjan * (+133) Fix indents and lost section title, and add unsigned
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04:41:05 <HackEso> patching file karma \ Hunk #1 FAILED at 1. \ 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file karma.rej
04:42:11 <HackEso> 12123:2019-11-17 <fizzïe> slbd karma//s|lib/|${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/| \ 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
04:42:25 <HackEso> 12126:2019-11-17 <fizzïe> ` for d in + -; do sed -i -e \'s|tee karma|tee ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/karma|\' /hackenv/bin/karma$d; done \ 12124:2019-11-17 <fizzïe> slbd karma+//s|lib/|${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/| \ 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
04:43:14 <oerjan> hum how long ago is that...
04:45:50 <oerjan> it's always been broken
04:47:49 <oerjan> hum why does karma show up for karma+ in dobg
04:49:07 <oerjan> 12124 is not in the browser list
04:50:06 <oerjan> never mind i was on an old revision and didn't realize file log restricted to that
04:54:02 <HackEso> hppavilion[1] has 0 karma.
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06:33:26 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67713&oldid=67697 * Hex96 * (+9) /* Hello, World! */
06:44:11 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 has $(${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/karma "$1") karma."
06:44:41 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '<[^]]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
06:45:48 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 now has $(($(${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/karma "$1")+1)) karma." | tee ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/karma
06:45:51 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ touch karma \ echo "$1 now has $(($(${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/karma "$1")-1)) karma."
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07:33:20 <esowiki> [[User:Flux3on]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67714 * Flux3on * (+12) Created page with "I'm here now"
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07:42:18 <oerjan> hm i doubt karma- works
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07:49:20 <oerjan> `slbd karma-//2d;$s,$, | tee ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/karma,
07:49:22 <HackEso> karma-//#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 now has $(($(${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/karma "$1")-1)) karma." \ | tee ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/karma
07:50:14 <oerjan> `slbd karma-//2d;3s,$, | tee ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/karma,
07:50:25 <HackEso> karma-//#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 now has $(($(${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/karma "$1")-1)) karma." | tee ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/karma
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07:53:20 <oerjan> `t sled lib/karma//s/egrep.*>/egrep -x '<[^>]*>/
07:53:22 <HackEso> lib/karma//#!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep -x '<[^>]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
08:04:59 <oerjan> `t sled lib/karma//s/egrep.*>/egrep '^<[^>]*>/
08:05:05 <HackEso> lib/karma//#!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '^<[^>]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
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08:47:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67715&oldid=67692 * Hex96 * (-374)
09:18:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67716&oldid=67712 * Dart * (+505)
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10:11:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67717&oldid=67716 * Hex96 * (+71) /* Attempted programs */
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10:43:50 <esowiki> [[User:Noner Kao/TaiDoku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67718&oldid=53923 * Dart * (-15) Changed redirect target from [[User:Noner Kao/TaiDoKu]] to [[TaiDoKu]]
10:45:22 <esowiki> [[User:Sgeo/Trustfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67719&oldid=35429 * Dart * (+1) Changed redirect target from [[Trustfuck]] to [[Braintrust]]
10:51:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67720&oldid=67501 * Dart * (+10) /* A */
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11:02:30 <esowiki> [[TaiDoKu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67721&oldid=54087 * Oerjan * (-22) fix unnecessary redirect
11:03:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:Noner Kao/TaiDoKu]]": Unnecessary redirect after move from userspace
11:06:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:Noner Kao/TaiDoku]]": No incoming links and page has been moved from user space, content was: "#REDIRECT [[TaiDoKu]]"
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12:13:39 <myname> is there an actual esolang called dart or is somebody just mentioning the real dart?
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13:20:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Emi * New user account
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13:25:37 <YamTokTpaFa> well, whatever. Today I am here to bring a topic again.
13:25:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67722&oldid=67702 * Emi * (+200) /* Introductions */
13:25:57 <YamTokTpaFa> First of all I'd like you to see these... wait what?
13:26:18 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67723&oldid=67701 * Emi * (+36) Add opcode 99 to opcode table
13:26:32 <YamTokTpaFa> Back on the topic, I see two articles: Y and Y (programming language).
13:27:01 <YamTokTpaFa> <<https://esolangs.org/wiki/Y>> and <<https://esolangs.org/wiki/Y_(programming_language)>>. Aren't they confusing?
13:27:51 <YamTokTpaFa> Though I put {{Distinguish/Confused}} on both pages, but I think we should discuss how we gotta rename the two pages.
13:29:32 <YamTokTpaFa> ...should I bring the topic on talk page, not here?
13:34:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Y (programming language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67724 * YamTokTpaFa * (+526) Created page with "== Renaming [[Y]] and [[Y (programming language)]]? == The issue is that they share one name and their article names may confuse readers. My suggestion is: former one should b..."
13:36:22 <YamTokTpaFa> also sorry if I were to have messed this place.
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18:10:44 <esowiki> [[Ttttt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67725 * Hex96 * (+218) Created page with "Now if you want to know how Ttttt works, go to [[Tttt]], because who doesnt like go to statements. The only difference between [[Tttt]] and [[Ttttt]] is that [[Tttt]] has t..."
18:12:42 <esowiki> [[Ttttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67726&oldid=67725 * Hex96 * (+378)
18:13:37 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67727&oldid=67708 * Hex96 * (+53)
18:14:16 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67728&oldid=67727 * Hex96 * (+2)
18:14:46 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67729&oldid=67728 * Hex96 * (-51)
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19:34:19 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67730&oldid=67670 * DmilkaSTD * (+506)
19:36:43 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67731&oldid=67669 * DmilkaSTD * (-1)
19:38:16 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67732&oldid=67672 * DmilkaSTD * (-51)
19:39:00 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67733&oldid=67730 * DmilkaSTD * (-1)
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21:22:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67734&oldid=67614 * Dart * (+177)
21:23:07 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67735&oldid=67732 * Dart * (-48)
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23:14:42 <esowiki> [[Bubbles]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67736 * IFcoltransG * (+2888) Created page with "'''Bubbles''' (not to be confused with [[Bubble]]) has only one datatype: the unordered collection, which are called bubbles. However, it does not have a Wikipedia: Choice f..."
23:15:48 <esowiki> [[Bubbles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67737&oldid=67736 * IFcoltransG * (+0)
23:17:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bubbles]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67738 * IFcoltransG * (+214) Created page with "This language was designed by the unofficial Esolangs Discord, but we don't own it. Feel free to contribute your ideas. ~~~~"
23:19:46 <esowiki> [[Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67739&oldid=67737 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Fixed conditional.
23:39:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67740&oldid=67720 * IFcoltransG * (+14) /* B */ + Bubbles
23:41:24 <esowiki> [[Bubbles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67741&oldid=67739 * IFcoltransG * (+116) Added categories
23:46:28 <fizzie> "The Northumberland market town of Hexham has been crowned the happiest place to live in Great Britain, topping Rightmove’s 2019 Happy at Home Index"
23:49:22 <HackEso> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico.
23:49:49 <HackEso> english channel:If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland. \ fentimans:fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack. \ ham:Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places. \ helsinki:Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Its main suburb is Hexham, Northumberland. \ hexchat:Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexh
23:53:11 <b_jonas> ``` grep -REi hexham /hackenv/wisdom
23:53:12 <HackEso> /hackenv/wisdom/hexchat:Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham. \ /hackenv/wisdom/wegian:A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). There's also the hypothetical Gal, which hasn't been observed yet so we're not sure where it's from. \ /hackenv/wisdom/ham:Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places. \ /hackenv/wisd
23:53:28 <b_jonas> ``` grep -REi hexham /hackenv/wisdom | tail -n+3
23:53:29 <HackEso> /hackenv/wisdom/ham:Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places. \ /hackenv/wisdom/fentimans:fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack. \ /hackenv/wisdom/english channel:If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland. \ /hackenv/wisdom/hexham:Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico. \ /hackenv
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00:31:47 <esowiki> [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67742&oldid=64483 * IFcoltransG * (-3) /* How It Works */ Typos
00:39:59 <esowiki> [[Treeng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67743&oldid=66191 * IFcoltransG * (+10) Fixed category
00:41:07 <esowiki> [[Treeng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67744&oldid=67743 * IFcoltransG * (-1) Fixed typo
00:42:05 <esowiki> [[Arch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67745&oldid=67364 * IFcoltransG * (+17) Shifted from Concepts to Data Types and Structures category
00:51:43 <esowiki> [[Church numeral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67746&oldid=13147 * IFcoltransG * (+214) Reorganised slightly, + added some info
00:52:08 <esowiki> [[Church numeral]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67747&oldid=67746 * IFcoltransG * (-2) Fixed my category addition
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01:13:55 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67748&oldid=63903 * IFcoltransG * (+2) Fixed word conflation
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01:15:17 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67749&oldid=67748 * IFcoltransG * (-2) Undo revision 67748 by [[Special:Contributions/IFcoltransG|IFcoltransG]] ([[User talk:IFcoltransG|talk]]) I just realised it's a pun
01:19:46 <esowiki> [[Bubble]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67750&oldid=65420 * IFcoltransG * (+38) Added "not to be confused with Bubbles"
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01:47:54 <HackEso> 1/2:nvg//NVG is a student computer club in Trondheim, whose servers are frequently infiltrated by oerjan. Not to be confused with nvd. \ rholypoly//A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic! \ sgdq//SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity every summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/ \ icbm//ICBMs are Crumbl
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01:48:04 <HackEso> 2/2:ing Building Missiles. The I is currently classified. \ cream//Cream is what milk turns into once you beat it into submission.
01:48:09 <HackEso> nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
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03:26:16 <zzo38> I played Scrabble and once accidentally put "A" where I meant to put "N", forming an invalid word (WIZEA instead of WIZEN). However, the error was not noticed until it was too late, so we didn't correct it, and the only word crossing it was AA (instead of AN; both words are valid), and I was left at the end with only my N unplayed, so the score comes out the same way anyways!
03:26:55 <zzo38> (I also won anyways, and would have done even if I had deducted the score for my error.)
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04:34:49 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, I see why I was getting duplicate clauses.
04:35:03 <shachaf> I was generating a new clause without verifying that both of its watched literals are actually unassigned.
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04:38:30 <shachaf> Oh, and I don't even handle unit clauses at all (since I never add them to watchlists), so there's no reason to expect learned unit clauses to work?
04:38:36 <shachaf> Man, this is completely broken.
05:07:06 <shachaf> Clause learning is trickier than I thought!
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05:30:50 <shachaf> When you learn a unit clause, do people just backtrack all the way to the beginning, or what?
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07:50:47 <kritixilithos> now is it possible without both s and y? you can only have newlines, so the data-string can be stored in unary representing a base-3 number that encodes the data-string (0=>nothing,1=>0,2=>1), and then you'd have to consider the endianness
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07:54:09 <kritixilithos> if it was first-bit = most-significant digit of base-3 number, then it can easily be multiplied by 3 and can be appended with the appropriate bits, but checking for the most-significant-bit is not possible (I think) using posix regexp
07:56:05 <kritixilithos> if the endianness was reversed, the first-bit can be checked by checking the residue of the number mod 3, trivial, but now appending bits requires you to find the smallest power of 3 larger than the number, which might not be possible with only the pattern and hold space
08:04:32 <kritixilithos> actually in the base-3 encoding, you need some way of storing the current production, so maybe it should be base-n, with n depending on the number of productions
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08:34:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rigidity * New user account
08:43:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67751&oldid=67722 * Rigidity * (+257) /* Introductions */
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09:19:46 <esowiki> [[Zed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67752 * Rigidity * (+1959) Created page with "== Zed Language == Zed is a language consisting of a total of 32 distinct symbols. A program consists of commands, as well as nested loops, scopes, threads, variables, and fun..."
09:20:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67753&oldid=67740 * Rigidity * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
09:21:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67754&oldid=67753 * Rigidity * (+10) /* Z */
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10:18:46 <HackEso> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
10:20:15 <wib_jonas> TC is technically correct, it is the best kind of correct (ISBKC)
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11:37:02 <esowiki> [[Zed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67755&oldid=67752 * IFcoltransG * (+6) Replaced "VERTICAL BAR" with actual properly escaped "|"
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11:53:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67756&oldid=67754 * IFcoltransG * (-10) /* Non-alphabetic */ "Zed" is alphabetic. Very alphabetic, in fact. Removed the duplicate.
11:56:49 <esowiki> [[Zed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67757&oldid=67755 * IFcoltransG * (+41) Added two appropriate categories.
12:02:29 <esowiki> [[LogOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67758&oldid=67543 * IFcoltransG * (+27) Tentatively added Pseudonatural category
12:05:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67759&oldid=64873 * IFcoltransG * (+111) /* Source format */ Added reference to the Pseudonatural category (which already exists)
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13:43:04 <esowiki> [[Ttttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67760&oldid=67726 * Hex96 * (+317) /* Hello, world */
13:44:15 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67761&oldid=67713 * Hex96 * (+301) /* Hello, World! */
13:44:48 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67762&oldid=67761 * Hex96 * (+4)
13:45:40 <wib_jonas> there's probably a few bugs in this long-running program that I made. fungot, can you give a clue about where the bug is?
13:45:40 <fungot> wib_jonas: i don't follow
13:46:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67763&oldid=67717 * Hex96 * (+96) /* One-eyed representations */
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14:39:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67764&oldid=67710 * Palaiologos * (+54)
14:39:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67765&oldid=67764 * Palaiologos * (+104)
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15:11:01 <arseniiv> fungot: in P vs. NP rap battle, who wins?
15:11:01 <fungot> arseniiv: i think almost whole darkhive is 300m. a car is-a vehicle, a vehicle, such things
15:11:42 <arseniiv> I get it you don’t want to give spoilers
15:44:42 <esowiki> [[Zed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67766&oldid=67757 * Rigidity * (+52) /* Zed Language */
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17:01:28 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67767&oldid=67762 * Hex96 * (+104)
17:02:38 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67768&oldid=67767 * Hex96 * (+9)
17:12:52 <esowiki> [[User:Dart]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67769 * Dart * (+1025) Created page with "<div style="background-image:linear-gradient(to top right,#294,#AB7);height:200px;text-align:center;"><div style="-webkit-text-stroke:1px #000;color:#FFF;text-shadow:3px 3px 0..."
17:43:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67770&oldid=67715 * Hex96 * (+6)
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17:51:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67771&oldid=67770 * Hex96 * (+13)
17:52:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67772&oldid=67771 * Hex96 * (+7)
17:54:22 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67773&oldid=67768 * Hex96 * (+128)
17:55:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67774&oldid=67729 * Hex96 * (+65)
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19:05:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67775&oldid=67772 * Dart * (+127) /* Other Programs */
19:14:19 <imode> what small, resource-constrained portable devices can we run esolangs on.
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19:17:01 <kmc> i'm sure you could run brainfuck on an 8-bit microcontroller
19:17:26 <kmc> add 8 buttons, 8 LEDs, use those for the input and output commands
19:17:39 <kmc> and for programming it
19:17:40 <kmc> could fit on a keychain
19:17:42 <kmc> would be cute
19:18:21 <kmc> I know there are Schemes that run on micros as well
19:18:48 <kmc> not eso-, but gives you an idea of what's possible
19:19:11 <kmc> I always thought it would be cute to make a machine where the clock is a hand crank
19:19:22 <kmc> static micros can be clocked as low as you want
19:24:08 <imode> been looking at the arduboy for that dev fix. wanna run mode on something stupid small to make that reward loop more satisfying than "your program worked on a machine infinitely more powerful than the apollo guidance computer".
19:39:12 <fizzie> There's a pretty good Befunge-93 (with a few extensions, like a-f) interpreter for the TI-86.
19:39:27 <fizzie> With a single-stepping debugger and all that.
19:40:19 <fizzie> (I think that counts as "resource-constrained portable devices", though "small" is a little bit debatable.)
19:44:45 <arseniiv> I never had a programmable calculator when it was feasible *sniffs*
19:45:56 <arseniiv> it would be so nice. Now it’s pretty pointless (for me) to aquire. Though if it falls from the sky, I should use this idea of implemeting some small esolang in it
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19:47:12 <arseniiv> as I agree this idea is very very cool. It would be a warm feeling. Pun intended
20:00:37 <imode> get an arduboy! they're cheap, use avrdude and avr-gcc (or whatever analogue for clang there is) and have a minimalist screen and speaker.
20:12:13 <zzo38> I have a TI-92 calculator. I use it; it has a full keyboard and is programmable, so it is good.
20:12:20 <fizzie> We also played quite a lot of the TI-86 two-player link-cable-enabled Tetris port.
20:13:15 <fizzie> The "problem" with TI-92 is that it's too good: it's got enough CAS-style features that you weren't allowed to use it in the Finnish math exams. The TI-86 was pretty much the fanciest thing you could.
20:13:49 <zzo38> That is true although I wasn't concerned about exams I just use it for my own use.
20:14:22 <fizzie> I got my TI-86 for... well, not for cheap, but with a good discount, as part of the school's big group-buy program.
20:34:45 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67776&oldid=67504 * JonoCode9374 * (+0) /* Command Glossary */
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21:03:41 <Sgeo_> I keep giving my esolang stuff cool unique names and then get pressured into a rename, and the rename is more ambiguous
21:04:06 <Sgeo_> PESOX -> PSOX and Trustfuck -> Braintrust
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22:56:26 <aji> 1915 kmc | I always thought it would be cute to make a machine where the clock is a hand crank
22:56:31 <aji> haha that'd be neat!
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23:22:16 <HackEso> 62) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED. \ 947) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
23:23:49 <int-e> fungot: got any fun?
23:23:49 <fungot> int-e: nite nite nites
23:24:41 <int-e> ^8ball does this work?
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23:30:32 <tswett[m]> That thing I said wasn't very funny. I'm going to request another one.
23:30:40 <HackEso> 860) <GreyKnight> Taneb: The other day on the channel I came up with BRAINLISPCODE, a LOLCODE-style LISP with an embedded bf derivative. I thought you should know. :-I \ 935) <groily> I stand by the argument that fungot is the one making the most sense in this channel.
23:31:26 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/%22
23:39:33 <int-e> `mkx ../bin/"//\`^ 2 quote "$@"
23:39:42 <HackEso> 1/1:120) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. \ 802) <kmc> colemak is for people who think dvorak is too mainstream
23:39:49 <HackEso> Usage: /hackenv/bin/`^ n cmd
23:54:27 <int-e> `mkx ../bin/"//\`^ 2 "quote${1:+ }$1"
23:54:33 <HackEso> 1/1:905) <Sgeo> If that sexy_goats had some sort of namespace, so other things could add their own sexy_goats method to Object or whatever to do something different, I would have no complaint \ 343) <Sgeo> I used to be more irritated by alcohol <olsner> Sgeo: you're not supposed to put it in your eyes
23:54:37 <HackEso> 1/11:163) <tswett> That is the mark of Gregor right there. <ais523> tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that <tswett> It's still the mark of Gregor. \ 167) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle. \ 240) <tswett> There are white Africans out there, but, you know. A black swan in the hand doe
23:55:07 <int-e> Oh, that's why we don't support this, hmm
23:58:58 <int-e> `mkx ../bin/"//allquotes | grep -P -i -- "$1" | shuff -random-source=/dev/urandom -n 2 | sport
23:59:06 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/": line 1: shuff: command not found \ 1/0:
23:59:30 <int-e> `sled ../bin/"//s=shuff=shuf=
23:59:32 <HackEso> ../bin/"//allquotes | grep -P -i -- "$1" | shuf -random-source=/dev/urandom -n 2 | sport
23:59:39 <HackEso> shuf: invalid option -- 'a' \ Try 'shuf --help' for more information. \ 1/0:
23:59:51 <b_jonas> fizzie fixed /dev/random by the way
00:00:44 <int-e> `sled ../bin/"//s=-r=--r=
00:00:47 <HackEso> ../bin/"//allquotes | grep -P -i -- "$1" | shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n 2 | sport
00:00:52 <HackEso> 1/1:325) <oklopol> but touchscreens should feel like poking a boob \ 622) <oklopol> i don't lie, i tell stories <oklopol> there's no difference <oklopol> *a
00:00:59 <HackEso> 1/1:1020) <elliott> beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone \ 995) <elliott> that is better than any made up story i was about to tell
00:03:36 <fizzie> Do you actually need that shuf option?
00:03:53 <fizzie> I mean, I don't mind, just wondering if it's insufficiently random by default.
00:04:40 <int-e> `` echo $(seq 10 | shuf)
00:04:43 <int-e> `` echo $(seq 10 | shuf)
00:05:23 <fizzie> "By default these commands use an internal pseudo-random generator initialized by a small amount of entropy, but can be directed to use an external source with the --random-source=file option. An error is reported if file does not contain enough bytes." https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Random-sources.html
00:06:17 <fizzie> It doesn't specify where that initialization is coming from, though.
00:06:46 <int-e> context, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/rev/3e54f8d1843f ... let's see the logs
00:10:24 <int-e> fizzie: I guess it's not needed.
00:10:53 <int-e> I copied it from `wisdom without thinking too much about it. Except that I retyped it and messed it up in the process, rather than mechanically copying it.
00:11:07 <int-e> And by `wisdom I mean `quote
00:13:02 <fizzie> Looks like we used the highly rigorous statistical test of oerjan having a feeling in order to prove that the default was insufficiently random.
00:13:12 <HackEso> '(1hackeso) - search quote database or print random quote
00:13:13 <HackEso> "(1hackeso) - show two random quotes
00:13:16 <HackEso> q(1hackeso) - search quote database or print random quote
00:13:20 <HackEso> quote(1hackeso) - search quote database or print random quote \ quote(8lambdabot) - no description
00:13:26 <HackEso> 163) <tswett> That is the mark of Gregor right there. <ais523> tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that <tswett> It's still the mark of Gregor. \ 167) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle. \ 240) <tswett> There are white Africans out there, but, you know. A black swan in the hand does not
00:13:29 <HackEso> 163) <tswett> That is the mark of Gregor right there. <ais523> tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that <tswett> It's still the mark of Gregor. \ 167) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle. \ 240) <tswett> There are white Africans out there, but, you know. A black swan in the hand does not
00:13:31 <HackEso> 163) <tswett> That is the mark of Gregor right there. <ais523> tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that <tswett> It's still the mark of Gregor. \ 167) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle. \ 240) <tswett> There are white Africans out there, but, you know. A black swan in the hand does not
00:13:56 <b_jonas> so none of these prints one random matching quote when you search?
00:14:36 <int-e> no, they print all quotes for some reason, in file order
00:14:51 <int-e> ' is a symlink to quote
00:14:57 <int-e> I suspect q is as well?
00:15:08 <fizzie> No, but it calls quote.
00:15:22 <fizzie> What's the right word for that? Should we call it a bashlink?
00:17:05 <b_jonas> ``` ls -dlF /hackenv/bin/{q,quote,\'}
00:17:07 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 5 Jul 8 2017 /hackenv/bin/' -> quote* \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 11 Apr 7 2018 /hackenv/bin/q* \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 194 Apr 7 2018 /hackenv/bin/quote*
00:17:47 <esowiki> [[BIX Queue Subset]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67777&oldid=67238 * Ais523 * (+161) external resources
00:25:32 <b_jonas> ``` python3 '-cimport sys,os,random,re; open(1,"wb",closefd=0).write(random.choice([l for l in open(os.environ.get("HACKENV","/hackenv")+"/quotes", "rb") if re.search(os.fsencode(sys.argv[1]), l)]))' llio
00:25:33 <HackEso> <ZOMGMODULES> I can trust elliott_ to have an opinion on anything and everything <elliott_> Yes. <elliott_> And the best thing is: it is the correct opinion.
00:25:45 <b_jonas> prints one random quote that matches the regex "llio"
00:27:05 <b_jonas> ``` python3 '-cimport sys,os,random,re; open(1,"wb",closefd=0).write(b"".join(random.sample([l for l in open(os.environ.get("HACKENV","/hackenv")+"/quotes", "rb") if re.search(os.fsencode(sys.argv[1]), l)], 2)))' fun.ot
00:27:06 <HackEso> <fungot> boily: i'll probably stop programming the day i will hit the end of the program. \ <fungot> elliott_: it's a machine that looks like you!
00:27:28 <fizzie> I assume the fact that quote prints all the matching ones is intentional -- the reasoning being that you might be looking for a specific one that you faintly remember.
00:27:51 <b_jonas> I generally use grep for those things, but it makes sense that quote can do that too
00:27:57 <b_jonas> but sometimes I want to read a random fungot quote
00:27:57 <fungot> b_jonas: fnord has a factorial opcode, and you will be teh positively fnord.
00:28:10 <b_jonas> because there are so many bad ones that you want to do the list five quotes delete one routine on just them
00:28:29 <fungot> fizzie: he was gushing about the power of the first
00:28:30 <HackEso> 807) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
00:28:41 <HackEso> 431) <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
00:29:47 <b_jonas> ``` python3 '-cimport sys,os,random,re; open(1,"wb",closefd=0).write(b"".join(random.sample([b"%d) %s"%(1+n,l) for n,l in enumerate(open(os.environ.get("HACKENV","/hackenv")+"/quotes", "rb")) if re.search(os.fsencode(sys.argv[1]), l)], 2)))' fun.ot
00:29:48 <HackEso> 768) <fungot> olsner: over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax \ 668) <fungot> elliott: but, there are imps around, the pad. it's hard to remember though your cross-hairs would never settle on an innocent little girl. chokes up now imagine she's white.
00:29:55 <b_jonas> ^ in case you want line numbers
00:30:16 <int-e> `` allquotes | shuf -n 1
00:30:18 <HackEso> 1194) <olsner> fungot: what do you do to get rid of information you no longer need? <fungot> olsner: emacs lisp for a while
00:30:28 <int-e> (is basically what `quote does)
00:30:32 <HackEso> randquote(1hackeso) - no description
00:30:34 <int-e> (without arguments)
00:31:27 <b_jonas> `addwhatis randquote(1hackeso) - print a random quote matching a regular expression
00:31:29 <HackEso> addwhatis: replaced 'randquote(1hackeso)'
00:31:32 <esowiki> [[BIX Queue Subset]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67778&oldid=67777 * Ais523 * (-2) cat
00:43:06 <b_jonas> What's the simplest infinite loop in /// ? The wiki article doesn't seem to say.
00:43:26 <b_jonas> what is the simplest loop that reads infinitely many patterns then?
00:44:31 <shachaf> My learned clauses are so scow.
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01:53:53 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67779&oldid=67776 * JonoCode9374 * (+0) Undo revision 67776 by [[Special:Contributions/JonoCode9374|JonoCode9374]] ([[User talk:JonoCode9374|talk]])
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02:44:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ggtylerr * New user account
02:48:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67780&oldid=67751 * Ggtylerr * (+290) /* Introductions */
02:54:18 <esowiki> [[User:Ggtylerr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67781 * Ggtylerr * (+401) Created page with " ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. GitHub: https://github.com/ggtylerr Twitch: https://www.twit..."
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03:19:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ggtylerr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67782 * Ggtylerr * (+145) Created page with "why do you want to discuss here ok well since you're here here's some ascii copypasta but made in brainfuck [https://pastebin.com/NUPRMEUR 1]"
03:32:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OpenMPT * New user account
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03:43:23 <esowiki> [[Baba is program]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67783 * Ggtylerr * (+3001) Started page
03:44:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67784&oldid=67756 * Ggtylerr * (+22) Added "Baba is program"
03:46:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67785&oldid=67780 * OpenMPT * (+215) /* Introductions */
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04:16:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:OpenMPT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67786 * OpenMPT * (+166) Created page with "I want to create an esolang base on topologic... Because of my bad English, I can't explain about it more. However,I will paste the code of the virtual machine later."
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05:49:11 <ggtylerr> Heyo, is there anyway I can reset my password without having to wait for 24 hours? I accidentally put in the wrong email address (I have to primary ones) and now I can't send another one...
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07:50:38 <esowiki> [[Loop2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67788 * Quadril-Is * (+19) Redirected page to [[Loop1]]
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07:51:32 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is/Loop2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67790 * Quadril-Is * (+30) Redirected page to [[Quadril-Is/Loop1]]
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07:52:48 <esowiki> [[Loop2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67792&oldid=67788 * Quadril-Is * (-19) oops
07:53:26 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is/Empty]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67793 * Quadril-Is * (+0) Created blank page
07:54:51 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67794&oldid=67294 * Quadril-Is * (+95) /* Some random stuff */
07:55:10 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67795&oldid=67794 * Quadril-Is * (+5) /* Some random stuff */
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07:58:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:Quadril-Is/Loop1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67797 * Quadril-Is * (+45) Created page with "Secret second loop: [[User:Quadril-Is/Loop3]]"
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08:28:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67800&oldid=67775 * Hex96 * (+91) /* Other Programs */
08:42:57 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67801&oldid=67765 * Hex96 * (+6) /* Tttt in Python, 175 bytes */
08:44:32 <esowiki> [[Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67802&oldid=67783 * Hakerh400 * (-45) Added an interpreter
08:48:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Baba is program]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67803 * Hakerh400 * (+255) Created page with "== Interpreter == Hello, I added an interpreter for your language. If you think any part of the implementation is not compliant with your specification, let me know. ~~~~"
08:50:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67804&oldid=67800 * Hex96 * (+95)
08:51:11 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67805&oldid=67773 * Hex96 * (+9) /* the symbols */
08:55:18 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67806&oldid=67805 * Hex96 * (+66) /* the symbols */
09:09:35 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67807&oldid=67801 * Hex96 * (+109) /* Challenge answers */
09:22:08 <ggtylerr> Hakerh400, if you can see this message, tysm! can't login rn since I forgot my pw and it takes 24 hours to reset it, but I'll definitely check it out
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10:10:05 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67808&oldid=67012 * Quadril-Is * (+59) /* Infinite loop */
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11:02:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67809&oldid=67803 * Ggtylerr * (+689) replied
11:09:22 <esowiki> [[Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67810&oldid=67802 * Ggtylerr * (+702) Added fibonacci example + a WIP interpreter in python
11:10:49 <esowiki> [[Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67811&oldid=67810 * Ggtylerr * (-1) (typo)
11:12:22 <ggtylerr> ^^^ found out reset emails get sent anyways despite a wrong email address inputted
11:12:44 <ggtylerr> so i got back my account w/o waiting for a full day \o/
11:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67812&oldid=67804 * Dart * (+243)
11:19:40 <esowiki> [[User:Ggtylerr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67813&oldid=67781 * Ggtylerr * (+129)
11:22:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67814&oldid=67812 * Hex96 * (+6) /* Other Programs */
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15:31:23 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67815 * CMinusMinus * (+1011) Created page with "'''Monolog''' ('''MONOLOG''') is a programming language created by [[User:CMinusMinus]]. Every thing you do, is to define a variable. You can call functions, do simple maths..."
15:31:46 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67816&oldid=67815 * CMinusMinus * (+3)
15:33:29 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67817&oldid=67816 * CMinusMinus * (+117)
15:37:52 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67818&oldid=67817 * CMinusMinus * (+478)
15:44:43 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67819&oldid=67818 * CMinusMinus * (+344)
15:45:04 <b_jonas> fungot, in pokémon, which move is it that copies a move from the opponent? I don't mean Ditto, who copies the form of a pokémon, just copy the move.
15:45:04 <fungot> b_jonas: doing is infectious, i tell ya. do i get out of vi. i use latex.
15:45:11 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67820&oldid=67061 * CMinusMinus * (+13)
15:46:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67821&oldid=67784 * CMinusMinus * (+14)
15:55:01 <fizzie> There's at least Mirror Move and Copycat.
16:05:33 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67822&oldid=67819 * CMinusMinus * (+64)
16:05:45 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67823&oldid=67822 * CMinusMinus * (+1)
16:06:26 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67824&oldid=67823 * CMinusMinus * (-2)
16:06:41 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67825&oldid=67824 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
16:09:18 <kingoffrance> pokemon, pshaw, us sun kings do final fantasy reflects and such :/
16:17:23 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: not even the collectible card game where you have to be rich to get the best cards?
16:19:29 <int-e> . o O ( should use sleeves )
16:22:36 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67826&oldid=67820 * CMinusMinus * (-17)
16:23:43 <b_jonas> I like the april fool announcement https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/announcing-vault-vaults-2009-04-01 which mentions "the safe that contains Richard Garfield's personal Black Lotus collection, and the underground bunker that contains Richard Garfield's personal black Lotus collection", and "black Lotus" is linked to a webpage about a car of brand Lotus. The difference is that the
16:23:49 <b_jonas> former kind of Lotus is never shiny but the latter kind usually is.
16:26:12 <b_jonas> you want to run that on bfbot?
16:26:25 <b_jonas> ^ this should say something about the bot being on vacation
16:27:49 <b_jonas> I don't play chess, so I don't think I'll use such a bot much
16:29:16 <b_jonas> oh by the way, prerequisite before you write an esoteric chess engine: http://www.nanochess.org/chess.html Oscar Toledo's golfed chess programs;
16:29:39 <kingoffrance> they say the knights templars brought it back from crusades (chess == shah, persianish for "king") and the pope or somebody demanded a "bishop" character; its basically a "how to overthrow a gov." game
16:29:49 <b_jonas> you may also want to check the one chess-related IOCCC winner that isn't by Oscar Toledo, and Tom7's silly chess strategies
16:29:59 <kingoffrance> (i cant remember what the "bishop" was before the rebrand)
16:30:44 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67827&oldid=67070 * CMinusMinus * (+7)
16:31:04 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67828&oldid=67827 * CMinusMinus * (-5)
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18:09:20 <imode> https://community.arduboy.com/t/brainf-ck-interpreter/7481
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19:19:33 <zzo38> The bishop was a elephant at first. What I read is that they called it a bishop because they did not know what is a elephant
19:21:10 <zzo38> (The queen also was not originally called that; also the bishop and queen's movement were different before they made the modern rules.)
19:22:20 <kmc> ah, is this because the game was imported from India?
19:22:47 <kmc> what were the old rules?
19:24:32 <zzo38> The elephant moves exactly two spaces diagonally and can jump; the advisor (now the queen) moves exactly one space diagonally and can't go orthogonally; promotion is always to queens; no pawns double step; no castling; once per game the king can go like a knight.
19:29:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: that sounds unlikely. everyone knew elephants form Pilnius, didn't they?
19:31:26 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know.
19:33:07 <zzo38> Maybe that is true; I don't know.
19:35:02 <kingoffrance> im saying surely they knew what an elephant was, they purposely wanted a religious figure to defend the kingdom or whatever
19:37:30 <zzo38> Maybe it is; I don't know about that history so well
19:39:36 <b_jonas> I think it's not an elephant because you can't turn an elephant figurine on a lathe.
19:39:55 <b_jonas> So an elephant would work as long as you only sell very expensive board, but not for a board game developed for mass market.
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20:37:03 <kspalaiologos> should it display board on multiple lines or a single line?
20:37:19 <zzo38> On just one line, I think, you can use FEN, I think
20:38:00 <kspalaiologos> imagine only thing you see is fen and you want to play
20:38:42 <zzo38> Although FEN is only needed for the initial position. After that just use the algebraic notation for each move.
20:38:50 <zzo38> You do not need to repeat the board after each move.
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20:41:44 <int-e> I suspect ♔♕♖♗♘♙♚♛♜♝♞♟ are your friends in this case
20:44:40 <zzo38> I think you can just write 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 and so on.
20:50:05 <int-e> It's not about having complete information, it's about not having to visualize a full board.
20:52:34 <b_jonas> [ 'rnbqkbnr',(8$'p'),(4 8$'.'),(8$'P'),:'RNBQKBNR'
20:55:29 <zzo38> You can place the pieces on your own board if you want to
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21:22:00 <b_jonas> [ 'rnbqkbnr',(8$'p'),(4 8$'.'),(8$'P'),:'RNBQKBNR'
21:22:38 <arseniiv> bishop is still, and I think forever, called elephant in Russian chess terminology, officially. There’s also an unofficial name translated as “officer”. I don’t understand why that one perseveres, as elephant is just four letters long and it’s not a taboo word or what
21:23:21 <int-e> arseniiv: What about knights?
21:24:47 <arseniiv> also queen is ferz, that one borrowed word having no non-chess meaning at all, and yes, knights are just (male) horses
21:25:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:KeyVM Process Capability Graph.jpg]]"
21:25:14 <arseniiv> I should check what’s a non-chess meaning of rook to elaborate further
21:25:57 <int-e> German also has its own term for bishop (Läufer=runner), knight (Springer=jumper, colloquially Pferd=horse), and rook (Turm=tower).
21:26:57 <fizzie> Finnish bishops are messengers/couriers ("lähetti").
21:27:32 <fizzie> And knights are a the generic word for any riding animal ("ratsu").
21:27:38 <int-e> That would agree with the runner idea.
21:28:38 <int-e> Anyway, "rook" is pretty mysterious to me.
21:29:00 <fizzie> Rooks are towers, but to be fair, they *are* towers.
21:29:24 <arseniiv> “rook” as a chesspiece seems not having a non-chess meaning, as a bird rook is not a partially synonymous castle. Russian rook name is an archaic word for boat, and an unofficial word (I think it should be much rare than an officer bishop vs. elephant bishop case) is a French borrowing or something, for a castle
21:30:26 <int-e> Oh it's a transcription of the arabic/persian terms
21:30:44 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67830&oldid=64781 * Void * (+727) Add self replicating process example
21:31:13 <int-e> Well, loaned from there anyway... "Middle English rok, from Anglo-French roc, from Arabic rukhkh, from Persian rukh"
21:31:23 <arseniiv> now, at last pawn here is again a chess-exclusive word (plus its metaphorical usage, exactly as in English) derived analogously from a footsoldier
21:31:53 <int-e> (it's too old for scripture to play any significant role in the process)
21:33:53 <arseniiv> <int-e> Springer=jumper => oh! now I suddenly understand something about some publisher
21:34:20 <fizzie> Oh, that's why they've got that logo.
21:35:41 <int-e> Always nice to spread some knowledge :-?
21:37:22 <arseniiv> I wonder is there a page collecting these names and connotations between different languages
21:37:59 <fizzie> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Chess_pieces for the first part.
21:38:09 <fizzie> For just the list, I mean.
21:38:23 <fizzie> You'd have to click on the individual words for the meanings, unfortunately.
21:40:15 <arseniiv> fizzie: oh, that’s useful! though I don’t know for what
21:40:53 <int-e> arseniiv: if you can't find any other use, it's good for https://www.xkcd.com/609/
21:42:06 <arseniiv> yes, I forgot that queen is occasionally a queen to, but not officially, as that table mentions too, if one to suppose the first name is always an official one if it has sense for that language’s chess authority
21:43:54 <int-e> Oh it should be noted that "Springen" exists as a particular kind of horse riding. And in a military context, I suspect it's a kind of reserve that you can use to fill gaps in the front.
21:43:59 <arseniiv> wait, didn’t Munroe had another one about that effect and called it Wikipedia effect or something?
21:44:20 <zzo38> The queen was originally called ferz before they called it queen. The rook is called that because it was a corruption of a Indian word for a chariot (in Chinese game the piece with the same movement as a rook is called a chariot or car).
21:45:51 <int-e> arseniiv: you're right: https://www.xkcd.com/214/
21:47:16 <int-e> arseniiv: explainxkcd further points to the image title in https://www.xkcd.com/1501/
21:47:46 <zzo38> Wiktionary says "rook" is from a Arabic, from Persian (in both Arabic and Persian it means that chess piece), in turn from Sanskrit word meaning a chariot or car.
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22:07:14 <int-e> arseniiv: I suspect Munroe has a hard time *not* doing one of those comics every month.
22:07:57 <int-e> I mean he must be ending up in those spirals constantly, while looking for comic ideas and otherwise entertaining himself
22:08:37 <arseniiv> the former hadn’t occurred to me
22:09:01 <arseniiv> the latter is not that mysterious as he says too :D
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22:59:03 <kmc> fungot: have you ever been to the fungus fair
22:59:03 <fungot> kmc: in my experience, fnord type constructors would be defined by the angles the lines of what you call ' objects?'
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23:14:47 <b_jonas> fungot: no, that's not how type constructors work
23:14:48 <fungot> b_jonas: the fnord seems a less stable ( historical) state than -as-behaviour.)
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00:25:35 <imode> hm.. what if you modified `]` to mean the opposite of `[`. i.e "dequeue an item, if it's true, loop to the beginning of the loop, otherwise move on to the next instruction."
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03:00:17 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/RunnyDistinctDeclaration it's a start.
03:05:37 <imode> one thing I do like about this implementation is that it guards against spinning processes. if all of your processes are dead or blocking, it just stops.
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04:11:43 <HackEso> 1/1:hth//hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. \ nø//nø means 'Char', apparently. Maybe like when you burn a lot? \ lifthrasiir//lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends. \ #esoteric-blah//#esoteric-blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah! \ vegemite//Vegemite is genericized marmite for intellectual property reasons.
04:54:22 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Phoney Burn 01]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67831 * Salpynx * (+5473) Puns intended. I started with a serious attempt, but then this happened...
05:42:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67832&oldid=67763 * Salpynx * (+1429) /* Random Observations and Guesses */ colour theory
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05:53:47 <kingoffrance> in atlas and/or reverse atlas news; theres totally a card with dude holding up "the world" on google right now
06:04:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67833&oldid=67832 * Salpynx * (+13) /* Colours */
07:17:41 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67834&oldid=66273 * Flux3on * (+5) /* Cat */
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07:39:22 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Phoney Burn 01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67835&oldid=67831 * Salpynx * (+381) /* Phoney Burn walkthrough */ modify the final data string to produce a more interesting rule 110 result
08:27:19 <zzo38> There is a Magic: the Gathering mystery card called "Corrupted Key". If it is tapped, your creatures have menace and deathtouch. Do you have the card database with the mystery cards in this IRC?
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08:31:00 <shachaf> `card-by-name corrupted key
08:31:05 <HackEso> Corrupted Conscience \ 3UU \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ You control enchanted creature. \ Enchanted creature has infect. (It deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters and to players in the form of poison counters.) \ MBS-U \ \ Corrupted Crossroads \ Land \ {T}: Add {C}. ({C} represents colorless mana.) \ {T}, Pay 1 life: Add one mana of any color. Spend this mana only to cast a spell with devoid. \ OGW-R \ \ Corru
08:31:30 <shachaf> I don't remember what Menace is. Was there a rules lookup command?
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08:31:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: we don't have one
08:31:45 <kingoffrance> well, i have reverse corrupted keys zzo38 , but that explanation makes total sense zzo38
08:31:47 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67836&oldid=67834 * Flux3on * (+253) /* Example Programs */ It can be replaced with something (anything, please) better. I just wanted there to be a Hello World program there in the least ~~~~
08:32:42 <b_jonas> ``` grep -i menace /hackenv/share/mtg/rules.txt | tail -n+2
08:32:43 <HackEso> 702.110. Menace \ 702.110a Menace is an evasion ability. \ 702.110b A creature with menace can’t be blocked except by two or more creatures. (See rule 509, “Declare Blockers Step.”) \ 702.110c Multiple instances of menace on the same creature are redundant. \ Menace \ An evasion ability that makes creatures unblockable by a single creature. See rule 702.110, “Menace.”
08:33:57 <kingoffrance> douthtouch is lifetouch just depends on which "bible" people go by
08:35:17 <zzo38> Deathtouch means damage this object deals to a creature will cause state based actions to destroy that creature even if the damage doesn't equal or exceed its toughness. There is no "lifetouch" in Magic: the Gathering, and I don't know what "douthtouch" means (is it like "deathtouch"?)
08:36:33 <zzo38> I fail to see what the Bible has to do with it.
08:40:13 <zzo38> I do not understand.
08:41:32 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: card with dude holding up "the world" => do you mean https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bembo-Visconti-tarot-arcanum-21-world.jpg or other https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/?curid=11291208 ?
08:44:13 <kingoffrance> theres a first coming set of catholic keys, and theres 2nd coming protestant keys basically
08:44:42 <zzo38> I thought a card holding up the world might refer to one of the trumps in the tarot cards, but "on google right now", it is unclear
08:44:56 <zzo38> (Although I don't use Google much, so I don't know.)
08:45:26 <zzo38> kingoffrance: OK, although I was discussing Magic: the Gathering cards, rather than Catholic and Protestant religions
08:46:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: "on google right now" means that he's looking at the image of such a card through the internet, potentially the very image that I linked
08:48:14 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK, but then he didn't say very clearly, at least to me
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08:54:04 <kingoffrance> how they shapeshift the google logo on www.google.com might be gone now depending on your timezone
08:54:38 <zzo38> O, OK, now I looked. Yes it is still there.
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09:00:21 <b_jonas> so apparently the hoster of the Everyday Heroes and The Inexplicable Adventures of Bob webcomics has changed to one of those horrible hosts where you need to overload your computer with javascript ads before it is willing to show the webcomic, and even then you need one click to hide an ad and another to view the comic in full resolution. gocomics.com has already been such a webcomic host for a while,
09:00:27 <b_jonas> but now there's another one.
09:00:52 <b_jonas> either that, or their website is just plain broken. I haven't tried to get through their javascript yet, so I don't know if the comic behind it is actually accessible.
09:01:07 <b_jonas> I'll try some day when I feel more adventurous.
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09:46:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Phoney-burn-r110-spaceship.png]]"
09:50:54 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Phoney Burn 01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67838&oldid=67835 * Salpynx * (+90) /* Phoney Burn walkthrough */
10:08:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67839&oldid=67833 * Salpynx * (+476) /* Reverse engineering attempts */ phoney solution to the reverse engineering challenge
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15:09:28 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67840&oldid=67733 * DmilkaSTD * (-407)
15:11:30 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67841&oldid=67840 * DmilkaSTD * (-69)
15:29:58 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67842&oldid=67841 * DmilkaSTD * (+54)
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15:51:04 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67843&oldid=67842 * DmilkaSTD * (+455)
15:51:24 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67844&oldid=67843 * DmilkaSTD * (+5)
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18:36:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yay * New user account
18:38:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67845&oldid=67785 * Yay * (+76) /* Introductions */
18:40:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67846&oldid=67845 * Yay * (+190) /* Introductions */
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18:42:11 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67847&oldid=67723 * Yay * (+4)
18:45:46 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67848&oldid=67847 * Yay * (+439) /* Parameter Modes */
18:46:24 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67849&oldid=67848 * Yay * (+0) /* Parameter Modes */
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18:47:56 <int-e> fungot: Can you do multivariate optimization?
18:47:56 <fungot> int-e: it's finland! :) i'm stealing their hidden stash of alcohol. for some reason. it could spend n ticks to mark a certain spot, just to show that
18:49:43 <b_jonas> int-e: not anymore. training the markov models isn't built into fungot, he gets the models already precompiled, and nobody knows how fizzie created those models lots of years ago
18:49:43 <fungot> b_jonas: i was about to mention that
18:49:43 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67850&oldid=67849 * Yay * (-36) /* Parameter Modes */ fix everything I broke
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18:51:34 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm tackling Ponder This, and I'm doing stupid random hillclimbing instead of finding a proper tool for the job.
18:52:07 <int-e> I'm successful, mind you. But it feels wrong.
18:52:11 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67851&oldid=67850 * Yay * (+1) /* Opcodes */
18:53:17 <b_jonas> int-e: what's Ponder This? it's not Advent of Code, right?
18:53:32 <int-e> http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/December2019.html
18:54:18 <int-e> A monthly puzzle by some IBM Research fault, has been going for over 20 years.
18:55:40 <b_jonas> interesting. I didn't know about that puzzle set
18:57:57 <b_jonas> anyway, as for your original question, GSL https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/ has multivariate numerical optimization with machine doubles, and has a C interface, including that you give it a C callback that computes the function you want to optimize and possibly its derivatives
18:58:18 <b_jonas> it calls it "Multidimensional Minimization"
18:58:50 <b_jonas> and there was a link, let me try to find it, about more software for multidimensional minimization,
18:59:07 <b_jonas> plus you can find such libraries distributed with various computer algebra software
19:00:06 <b_jonas> the webpage that gives those links might be somewhere in the channel logs too
19:13:31 <b_jonas> found it. int-e: http://plato.asu.edu/sub/pns.html list of numeric optimization software
19:18:25 <fizzie> In fact, I do know how I created them. In fact, most of them were created almost exactly following the steps at https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/varikn/readme.txt
19:18:25 <fungot> fizzie: so it *is* long, and how a distributed system needs to be a really slow aircraft, though,
19:18:33 <fizzie> I do not have a copy of the exact parameter values I used, so I can't quite recreate the same results from scratch, but it should be close enough.
19:18:46 <fizzie> Some of the older (better?) models were trained with a super-crummy C++ program, which I still have -- though I'm not sure if buildlm.cc, buildlm-old.cc or buildlm-old2.cc is the relevant version for each of them. I have no excuse for why it's not in version control, either.
19:20:44 <esowiki> [[Fungot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67852&oldid=67237 * B jonas * (+153) link to dDescription of the software that was used to generate most of the markov models of fungot
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19:47:27 <int-e> Oh well I tweaked my code to the point where it finally seems to be approaching a local minimum.
19:49:05 <b_jonas> int-e: good. nevertheless I recommend that list page, in case you meet a more complicated numeric optimization problem in the future
20:02:02 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah it does look useful, thanks.
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21:07:31 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67853&oldid=67825 * CMinusMinus * (+210)
21:08:06 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67854&oldid=67853 * CMinusMinus * (+26)
21:13:16 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67855&oldid=67854 * CMinusMinus * (+562)
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21:16:45 <esowiki> [[Monolog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67858&oldid=67857 * CMinusMinus * (+4) /* cat */
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07:41:11 <esowiki> [[Ttttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67860&oldid=67760 * Hex96 * (+49)
08:02:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67861&oldid=67814 * Hex96 * (+12)
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11:58:53 <izabera> i have a graph with 142k nodes and 2.5mil edges
11:59:23 <izabera> and i want to compute the diameter
12:07:37 <izabera> how do i make this problem tractable?
12:08:14 <Taneb> Solve the problem of making yourself not want that?
12:08:32 <izabera> and cloud computing is cheap
12:09:16 <izabera> so i need a way to distrubute the floyd warshall algorithm across different machines
12:09:50 <izabera> in a smart way so that machines try to do as much as they can locally and don't always compete for shared resources
12:10:41 <Taneb> https://www3.nd.edu/~tweninge/pubs/PW_HPGM.pdf here is a paper
12:10:49 <Taneb> It might even be helpful
12:16:34 <myname> I don't know if I'd use floyd warshall to compute the diameter in this case at all
12:16:58 <myname> like, given the graph is simple, you can already calculate an upper bound of the diameter
12:21:10 <myname> that's a tough one I maybe think about later, but I just assumed that you can make assertions about cycle lengths which in turn will reduce the diameter
12:22:33 <myname> like, if you have at leas as much edges as you have nodes, you will have a cycle of at least length 3 reducing the diameter from a maximum of n to a maximum of n-1
12:26:13 <izabera> i think i can do dijkstra from each node to every other node
12:26:36 <izabera> it's trivially parallelisable by just having a local copy of the adjacency matrix on each machine
12:30:20 <myname> is this really an advantage over a normal floyd warshall?
12:31:27 <izabera> i don't know how to split it across machines
12:31:59 <myname> you will need to have at least n^3/(n log n) processes for that to be faster
12:32:39 <izabera> with floyd warshall you'd need to write to the shared cache all the time
12:32:46 <izabera> how do you parallelise that?
12:35:04 <myname> not sure, that's why I wouldn't use that :D
12:35:26 <izabera> i just want an algorithm that's reasonably fast and that can be split
12:40:19 <myname> yeah, but I would assume there exists a reasonably parallelizable algorithm to calculate the diameter of a graph that does not rely on calculating each distance and finding the maximum in those
12:41:42 <myname> like, if you can give an upper bound on the diameter (which I believe you can), you may be able to parallelise the search based on clusters of size g(max diameter)
12:45:04 <izabera> i have a strong feeling that the diameter is like 7
12:46:37 <izabera> altho i'm not sure i understand how your idea works
12:48:12 <myname> I am thinking about generating a transitive hull and check for completeness of the resulting graph
13:02:04 <fizzie> Here's another paper: https://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/arijit.khan/Papers/vertex_centric_edbt17.pdf
13:03:01 <fizzie> I don't know if it's any good, but it's got a "vertex-centric" algorithm for a diameter, and there are things to parallelize algorithms like that, like our "Pregel".
13:03:53 <fizzie> (TBH, it doesn't look particularly efficient, more a toy example.)
13:11:15 <izabera> fizzie: https://pregel.it/en/
13:12:34 <izabera> https://blog.acolyer.org/2015/05/26/pregel-a-system-for-large-scale-graph-processing/
13:12:43 <izabera> didn't know that you're at google
13:36:20 <Taneb> izabera: did you look at the PDF I linked
13:39:53 <fizzie> I don't go around advertising it, though it's not a secret either.
13:42:22 <izabera> Taneb: i'm dumb and it's complicated
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15:25:58 <wib_jonas> izabera: re computing diameter, that looks borderline. do you have enough RAM to allocate a square matrix whose width and height is the number of points, or at least a triangular half of it? the elements themselves can be small, probably single bytes, possibly two bytes if the diameter is large.
15:26:16 <wib_jonas> if you do have enough RAM for that, then use Floyd's algorithm to compute the pairwise distances
15:27:28 <wib_jonas> that's not an impossibly large amount of memory these days, you can probably borrow some time on a machine with that much RAM
15:30:21 <myname> is computing a single transitivity step for a graph in matrix form that hard?
15:32:11 <wib_jonas> if you suspect that the diameter is small, then you can optimize it well, you don't need a full Floyd
15:32:30 <wib_jonas> it still won't be fast, but it will be much faster and easier than trying to figure out some distributed solution
15:34:19 <wib_jonas> if you don't have enough RAM, then yes, run an individual BFS from each node, to make sure that you can reach all nodes of the graph in few steps
15:34:48 <wib_jonas> in fact, that's probably faster than anything with a full matrix, because your graph is sparse enough
15:35:02 <wib_jonas> so ignore my previous idea about a large matrix and floyd's algorithm
15:35:26 <wib_jonas> you said your graph is very sparse, so just do a BFS from each individual node to find the distance of the farthest node from there
15:37:18 <wib_jonas> I suggest that you implement the DFS using two arrays with one bit each for each node, to know which one you've visited in the previous step and the current step, and passes of reading through the edge list in sequence
15:37:55 <wib_jonas> I suggest sorting the edge list for some speedup
15:39:10 <wib_jonas> izabera: ^ that would work reasonably fast for a graph of small diameter, because you're reading the edge list sequentially, and you only need to access 284000 bits i.e. 35 kilobytes random access
15:40:39 <wib_jonas> if you double the edge list, making it an arc list (storing each edge in both directions) and sort it by destination node, the you only need random access to one of the bit arrays and sequential access to the other bit array, so the array with random access just fits in the L1 cache
15:42:53 <wib_jonas> this is assuming that the graph is confidental or you want to solve it yourself; otherwise just publish the graph and offer money to people for computing the diameter
15:45:20 <wib_jonas> require solvers to give not only the diameter, but the indexes of two nodes that are that far apart, so you can verify easily
15:47:00 <FireFly> ah yes, the O(incentive) approach
15:49:36 <myname> wib_jonas: that would not suffice
15:50:06 <myname> i can easily claim the diameter being 1 and give you two nodes with a distance of 1
15:53:08 <myname> you would need to have at least one honest participant
15:53:24 <wib_jonas> myname: it doesn't suffice, but your solution doesn't work, because izabera can find the submission that claims the highest diameter, and run a single breadth-first search from one of the nodes that it claims to find the distance of the two nodes that it claims, and if that's 7 then that proves your submission incorrect
15:53:54 <wib_jonas> the failure case is that everyone claims a diameter that is lower than the actual one
15:54:08 <wib_jonas> or that izabera is DOSed by too many incorrect submissions
15:55:35 <wib_jonas> myname: also the spec said "i have a graph with 142k nodes and 2.5mil edges", that's not a complete graph so the diameter can't be 1
15:56:13 <myname> well yeah, but i should be able to find some nodes with distance 3 pretty easily
15:57:09 <myname> oh, couldn't you just contract parts of the graph?
15:58:36 <myname> like, if you have a path of length n > 1, you could just make that into a path of length 1 with a weight of n
15:59:08 <myname> if you do end on a complete graph, you just need to find the biggest weight
16:00:00 <myname> or you could just split the graph in half, substitute the missing half with a new node and try some clever merging of paths, that run through that
16:01:20 <myname> (paths meaning longest distance travels between two nodes in the later case)
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16:37:10 <esowiki> [[Dd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67862&oldid=56366 * Dart * (+4206) Stretching the essay to the 500 word requirement like:
16:49:23 <int-e> wtf is this "The download cannot be saved because an unknown error occurred."
16:51:17 <int-e> Oh, it's me, more specifically umatrix interfering in a way I have not identified before--it categorizes the request as "other" and blocks it. Fine.
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17:35:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67863&oldid=67519 * Hex96 * (+54)
17:38:57 <esowiki> [[Dd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67864&oldid=67862 * Dart * (+4)
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18:27:41 <mroman> huh. long time no see I guess
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18:29:41 <mroman> https://pastebin.com/EcuX91Hk <- and I'm already back at doing useless things.
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18:36:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67865&oldid=67861 * Hex96 * (+174) /* Other Programs */
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19:59:15 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67866&oldid=67774 * Hex96 * (+41)
19:59:40 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67867&oldid=67866 * Hex96 * (+4) /* List of esolangs */
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20:02:40 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67868&oldid=65112 * Hex96 * (+151) /* Hello, World! */
20:03:15 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67869&oldid=67868 * Hex96 * (-23) /* Hello, World! */
20:04:11 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67870&oldid=67869 * Hex96 * (+80) /* Cat program */
20:05:29 <HackEso> `4 <cmd> is equivalent to `5 <cmd>, except that it only repeats 4 times. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `5.
20:12:25 <b_jonas> can't people invent normal names for these brainfuck-equivalents?
20:13:07 <b_jonas> ok, I'm not sure I'm allowed to complain, given how I name things
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22:31:12 <int-e> b_jonas: I've solved the AoC problems so far over the past 6 hours.
22:31:53 <shachaf> Today's AoC challenge: Prove that every vector space has a basis.
22:32:04 <int-e> KISS is such a powerful principle.
22:32:23 <fizzie> I have no idea how long I've spent, because the timing starts from what's 5am here.
22:32:59 <fizzie> Guess I could extrapolate from the delta between part 1 and part 2 though.
22:33:07 <int-e> You can still keep track of the time *you* spend.
22:33:15 <fizzie> Yes, but not retroactively. :)
22:33:21 <fizzie> Well, maybe from file timestamps.
22:33:41 <int-e> I'm extrapolating from part 1 of the 1st day ;)
22:34:00 <int-e> I'll lose track if I continue doing this.
22:34:10 <int-e> The leaderboard scoring is atrocious, btw.
22:34:44 <fizzie> I'm kind of happy it is, because otherwise I'd probably start caring about it.
22:35:00 <fizzie> (In fact I did today's right when it opened, because happened to be awake.)
22:35:58 <fizzie> Fortunately it's fun enough to just write those things.
22:39:43 <int-e> for the later problems I could reconstruct things reasonably well by the file stamps of the inputs
22:40:34 <int-e> Hmm, or maybe not. I have not been consistent about downloading the input when I start.
22:40:47 <int-e> Oh well, who really cares.
22:42:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: https://www.xkcd.com/804/ I told you not to take the axiom of choice
22:45:54 <int-e> meh, perhaps somebody cares: wc counts of what I've produced: http://paste.debian.net/1120577/
22:50:10 <fizzie> I think my Python's been more verbose.
22:51:10 <fizzie> Well, same order of magnitude.
22:53:11 <fizzie> (Flatter directory structure though.)
22:53:53 <int-e> I expected slightly harder problem (so more exploration)
22:54:21 <int-e> It's still nice not having to rename the 'input' files, but it's a minor thing.
22:54:37 <int-e> Also I broke the Intcode API once so having copies is actually healthy.
22:55:10 <fizzie> I'm sharing, that's why I have test.py (which runs all the day*.py and compares their outputs to a golden copy).
22:55:23 <fizzie> Although from the "your Intcode computer is now complete", maybe there won't be any more.
22:56:12 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I was doing these some previous year as well, but no idea where I've stashed the solutions.
22:56:37 <int-e> yeah, the 2019 is a bit silly :)
22:57:38 <fizzie> To be fair, 'aoc2019' is the only thing in my '~/src/puzzles'. Not because there haven't been any puzzles, I just think I've used ~/tmp, ~/src/misc, or whatever.
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23:27:38 <arseniiv> https://www.xkcd.com/2235 haha
23:54:31 <arseniiv> luckily AoC can be googled by “aoc of code”; just "AoC" in quotes gives bizarre results, apparently lacking respect for mixed case in queries
23:56:21 <int-e> quick, we need an axiom of code
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00:58:31 <int-e> fungot: do you plundervolt?
00:58:31 <fungot> int-e: not the nth? i didn't vote for either of these been used for any significant sites?
01:11:28 <arseniiv> fungot: what is your nth-child?
01:11:28 <fungot> arseniiv: not if you stopped working on it, or lump it.' many compilers will optimize them to the site and got the most interesting code is in
01:12:46 <arseniiv> int-e: I’d prefer an axiom of chocolate!
01:13:42 <int-e> axiom of chocolate: the darker the better
01:14:29 <int-e> (Though honestly I'm not sure about the 90%+ area.)
01:14:49 <fizzie> Someone had left some super-bitter "98%" or whatever chocolate at the snack area, I think that was kind of overdoing it.
01:15:01 <fizzie> There were like six or eight different kinds, and they were all like that.
01:15:07 <fizzie> I'm sure it's healthty, but still.
01:15:44 <int-e> heh, I don't eat chocolate because it's healthy (or not)
01:16:50 <int-e> But I just realized that I have some 85% chocolate around.
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01:17:18 <int-e> And that's quite good :)
01:20:25 <fizzie> That sounds reasonable enough.
01:21:09 <int-e> I had some super high % chocolate and found that it was ... dry, almost dusty.
01:21:42 <shachaf> I don't like dark chocolate.
01:21:50 <int-e> So yeah, I share some super dark chocolate skepticism.
01:22:18 <int-e> shachaf: What's the difference between B+ and B* trees?
01:22:57 <shachaf> I think there are a lot of different points in B-tree design space, and people named a few of those points, but mostly not the ones I actually want to use.
01:23:35 <shachaf> B+ trees store values only in the leaves (reasonable), and also have links between leaf nodes (is that that important?).
01:23:59 <shachaf> B* trees will share keys with both left and right siblings, I think, so nodes can be 2/3 full?
01:24:28 <shachaf> The point is: I thought B-trees were annoying and complicated until recently, when I thought about them. Now I think they're simple.
01:24:45 <int-e> Hmm, is that that important --> for external storage, I imagine it may help for linear scans?
01:25:25 <shachaf> Sure. I mean, it seems like a reasonable optimization for some uses, but you make lots of those when you implement things in practice.
01:25:28 <int-e> (But I didn't really expect any answers.)
01:29:55 <int-e> fungot: do you like side-stepping questions?
01:29:55 <fungot> int-e: that wraps functions... and just eval it in some ways
01:30:07 <shachaf> Wait, which question did I side-step?
01:30:19 <int-e> shachaf: that wasn't about you
01:30:37 <int-e> I've realized that I've identified a thing that *I* like.
01:30:39 <shachaf> But everything is about me.
01:31:31 <int-e> shachaf: Fine. You were the muse, the catalyst.
01:31:59 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
01:32:18 <shachaf> `learn shachaf sprø som selleri and is the muse, the catalyst.
01:32:54 <int-e> No more passion fruits?
01:33:41 <shachaf> Unicode has two code points with the same name?
01:36:13 <int-e> No bell pepper? Only 🌶...
01:36:39 <lambdabot> http://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.dailykos.com/story/2019/4/19/1849291/-PWB-Freidai-Follies-and-Foolishness
01:36:39 <lambdabot> Title: Уведомление о переадресации
01:37:47 <int-e> Weird page. Oh well, I don't know what I was trying to find there anyway.
01:38:43 <int-e> ``unidecode 🗭 # not for Democrats?
01:38:44 <HackEso> `unidecode? No such file or directory
01:38:48 <int-e> `` unidecode 🗭 # not for Democrats?
01:38:50 <HackEso> [U+1F5ED RIGHT THOUGHT BUBBLE]
01:39:22 <int-e> `` unidecode 🗬 # this one also exists, of course
01:39:24 <HackEso> [U+1F5EC LEFT THOUGHT BUBBLE]
01:40:04 <int-e> `` unidecode 🗯 # haha!
01:40:11 <HackEso> [U+1F5EF RIGHT ANGER BUBBLE]
01:40:23 <shachaf> Where's my RIGHTEOUS ANGER BUBBLE?
01:41:54 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
01:42:08 * int-e is missing something
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03:52:45 <int-e> fungot: hh and cc or hpp and cpp?
03:52:45 <fungot> int-e: someone is either up very late, which can be checked
04:01:20 <int-e> shachaf: But I like a language strictly between C and C++... basically C++ without dynamic methods (and consequently, very limited inheritance).
04:01:39 <int-e> dynamic -> virtual
04:02:49 <shachaf> What's the benefit of inheritance at all?
04:04:28 <int-e> You can still have some limited aggregation going on.
04:05:09 <int-e> Only extending interfaces and functionality... no overloading of methods or things will quickly become insane.
04:06:06 <int-e> (virtual methods are what keep this sane)
04:06:55 <shachaf> Wait, are you for or against virtual methods?
04:06:59 <int-e> The main thing I want is that every (struct/class) type has an associated namespace.
04:07:42 <int-e> shachaf: It depends? They are essential for OO. I don't want to do OO though.
04:07:45 <shachaf> I've been wondering how important that is for a while.
04:08:12 <shachaf> Is there a big advantage to x.f() over foo(x)?
04:08:49 <shachaf> I meant x.foo(), of course.
04:08:52 <int-e> Little, if you can overload foo().
04:10:05 <int-e> But C can't overload functions either.
04:10:46 <int-e> I think there's an advantage over having x.foo() or foo(x) vs. having to write type_foo(x) where 'type' happens to be the type of x.
04:11:44 <int-e> I'm not a very fast typist, so that kind of redundancy really hurts.
04:14:11 <int-e> I also find chaining of operations attractive... if you have struct T { T &set_foo(); T &set_bar(); }; T t; and do t.set_foo().set_bar().
04:15:40 <shachaf> I like (T){.foo = x, .bar = y};
04:15:53 <shachaf> Which C has had for 20 years and maybe C++ is finally getting?
04:17:19 <int-e> Anyway, if you were to add methods to structs in C I might consider using it again ;) )
04:17:42 <shachaf> type_foo has the benefit that you can search for it.
04:18:30 <int-e> Yes, we all rationalize our own choices.
04:18:54 <shachaf> I said a few lines ago that I've been wondering about it for a while.
04:19:09 <shachaf> In particular I mean that I'm not sure whether it's a good idea or not.
04:21:41 <int-e> It doesn't help C's case that it's largely a subset of C++. (The field initialisers are a good point, of course.)
04:22:20 <int-e> So basically the moment a person (like me) finds /anything/ they like in C++, they are tempted to switch.
04:23:31 <shachaf> whoa, I just realized how my own program worked.
04:23:38 <int-e> Btw I also find the iostream and iomanip stuff cute.
04:23:40 <shachaf> I had a bug which turned out to be a clever trick.
04:23:57 <shachaf> It did exactly the right thing. I'm going to document it and pretend it was what I meant to do all along.
04:24:28 <int-e> Been a while since I've done that, but yeah... those are interesting experiences.
04:25:09 <int-e> Well, the last time was actually code that I /knew/ couldn't work, that turned out to work /most/ of the time (much more often than it reasonably should), but not always :)
04:25:39 <int-e> I was really glad when I finally discovered that it did, in fact, break.
04:26:20 <int-e> (This was with last month's Ponder This, in code updating determinants which worked with insufficient precision... and still produced exact results most of the time.)
04:26:37 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/b-trees.txt
04:28:20 <int-e> The time before that was an overzealous (by my understanding at the time of writing it) check in a combinatorial search procedure which I could later justify to actually be valid (for quite subtle reasons).
04:28:58 <int-e> "overzealous check" -- this was for pruning a search tree, so I pruned more than I thought I could.
04:30:57 <int-e> shachaf: funny, I always think of B+-trees as 2-3-4-trees, only wider.
04:31:22 <int-e> And 2-3-4-trees are 2-3-trees with lazier splitting.
04:31:39 <shachaf> I always think of red-black trees as 2-3-4 trees.
04:32:12 <int-e> (Are B- -trees those that can have between n and 2n-1 children at each node?)
04:32:42 <int-e> I usually don't think of red-black trees at all.
04:33:08 <shachaf> Did you know they just encode 2-3-4 trees?
04:33:55 <shachaf> Anyway, I like this array perspective.
04:34:01 <int-e> but yeah, if I have to, I collapse it to a 2-3-4 tree.
04:34:22 <shachaf> I think just about all the operations are obvious from this viewpoint.
04:34:36 <int-e> AVL trees make so much more sense to me.
04:37:08 <int-e> shachaf: I think the array perspective is one of many possible views and it's impossible to say which view clicks for any particular person.
04:39:00 <int-e> Obviously /some/ sort of array is inherent in any Bx-tree because a flat array is what you get for very small data sets.
04:39:28 <shachaf> I mean, I've written a bunch of B-tree code in the past, I was already familiar with the data structure.
04:39:42 <int-e> And observing some sort of chunking at the leafs when you flatten the tree is also inevitable.
04:40:33 <int-e> But whether you view the thing top-down, emphasizing the tree structure, or bottom-up, empahsizing the (chunked) flattened array... is up to you.
04:42:12 <int-e> If you do it bottom-up, you get intermediate forests as you group consecutive chunks under a common ancestor node.
04:42:38 <int-e> So it's arrays all the way up. ;)
04:42:46 <int-e> But trees all the way down.
04:43:29 <shachaf> It's plausibly reasonable to use different kinds of indexing for blocks and for values.
04:43:42 <shachaf> Since they're very different sizes.
04:46:10 <int-e> Btw, I don't know if anything of what I just wrote made any sense. But I'm very happy with the last two lines.
04:50:10 <shachaf> C++'s std::map is usually a red-black tree.
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06:53:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Quadril-Is * uploaded "[[File:Burn program.png]]"
06:55:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Quadril-Is * uploaded "[[File:Burn program resized.png]]"
06:58:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67873&oldid=67839 * Quadril-Is * (+324) /* PNG of the program */ new section
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08:32:46 <esowiki> [[User:Dart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67874&oldid=67769 * Dart * (+233)
09:00:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: C++ std::map interface is defined such that when you modify the tree, the address of the contained items doesn't change (unless you erase that specific item), nor can the iterator to items. that negates some of the advantages of better B-trees. it could still use a B-tree with the items accessible through an extra pointer or index, but it's easier to just put every item in a separate node that
09:00:27 <b_jonas> never moves like a B-tree does.
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09:04:26 <shachaf> OK, that's a good reason not to use std::map.
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09:13:10 <Taneb> izabera: did you figure out graphs?
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10:16:49 <cpressey> Good morning. Here's a kooky juxtaposition for y'all: The Löwenheim-Skolem theorem says that if a logic has an infinite model, it has a countable one. Meanwhile there's this folk theorem in programming: if a program requires a loop, then it can be written with a single loop.
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10:39:24 <wib_jonas> cpressey: I think that latter is Dijkstra's "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" theorem, though it was probably known before Dijkstra, because people had cpus with a single loop that fetches instructions then executes them
10:43:03 <wib_jonas> cpressey: "https://esolangs.org/wiki/(0)" may be relevant for some infinite versions
10:52:33 <shachaf> Why is deletion so complicated?
10:53:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oklomsy * New user account
10:54:25 <wib_jonas> shachaf: that's the tradeoff about AVL trees versus B-trees or related. AVL trees have more complicated algorithms in general, but fast and simple deletion; B-trees and red-black trees have simple algorithms, but deletion can take O(log(n)) time.
10:55:58 <shachaf> I don't care about about it being slow, right now, just complicated.
10:56:22 <shachaf> Surely AVL tree deletion takes logarithmic time, anyway.
10:57:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67875&oldid=67846 * Oklomsy * (+251) /* Introductions */
10:59:24 <wib_jonas> shachaf: hmm, I might be misremembering, let me check the Knuth book
11:00:28 <wib_jonas> shachaf: you should look at the Okasaki book's description of red-black trees if you want a simple one
11:00:33 <shachaf> Maybe I shouldn't be doing B+ trees?
11:00:43 <shachaf> I'm not interested in red-black trees.
11:00:48 <wib_jonas> red-black trees look very complicated to me at first, but when Okasaki explains them, they're simpler
11:01:27 <wib_jonas> shachaf: well, what data structure you want depends on what you want it for. for storing on a disk that you read in sectors/clusters/blocks, some sort of B-tree with high degree is usually better
11:01:58 <wib_jonas> shachaf: also you could try to use a library written by someone else, such as that B-tree library from the future that ais523 will write
11:05:42 <wib_jonas> ok sorry, I was wrong. AVL tree deletion may require you to modify O(height) nodes
11:05:59 <wib_jonas> its insertion of a single node into AVL trees that is faster, because it requires you to adjust only O(1) nodes
11:06:12 <wib_jonas> whereas with a B-tree, an insertion may require you to adjust O(log n) nodes
11:06:47 <wib_jonas> shachaf: because if someone else already wrote a good and well-tested library, it's less likely to be buggy than if you write one
11:07:03 <wib_jonas> and there are a lot of balanced search tree libraries out there
11:10:13 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67876 * Oklomsy * (+36) Created page with "Furcode [[Category:Joke_languages]]"
11:10:51 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67877&oldid=67876 * Oklomsy * (-36) Blanked the page
11:12:40 <esowiki> [[Dd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67878&oldid=67864 * Dart * (+275) Added a shorter implementation
11:20:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67879&oldid=67276 * Oklomsy * (+621)
11:21:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67880&oldid=67879 * Oklomsy * (-584)
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11:35:21 <esowiki> [[Dd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67881&oldid=67878 * Dart * (-3)
11:38:54 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67882&oldid=67877 * Oklomsy * (+2023)
11:42:45 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67883&oldid=67882 * Oklomsy * (+653)
11:43:19 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67884&oldid=67883 * Oklomsy * (+6) /* Bash interpreter */
11:50:22 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67885&oldid=67884 * Dart * (-1486) There is no point copying the code to the page if there's already a link
11:57:37 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67886&oldid=67706 * Oklomsy * (+71)
12:00:10 <esowiki> [[Dd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67887&oldid=67881 * Dart * (-20)
12:00:12 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67888 * Oklomsy * (+148) Created page with "Hello! Welcome to my page, I am [[User:Oklomsy|Oklomsy]] I am the creator of [[Furcode]] I live in Denmark, and my life isn't interesting at all..."
12:09:07 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67889&oldid=67885 * Oklomsy * (+10) /* Interpreters */
12:10:04 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67890&oldid=67889 * Oklomsy * (-1) Marked the broken intrepeter
12:15:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Oklomsy * uploaded "[[File:Krazykat.png]]": A picture of a crazy cat!
12:16:22 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67892&oldid=67888 * Oklomsy * (+77)
12:21:27 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67893&oldid=67892 * Oklomsy * (+325)
12:21:40 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67894&oldid=67893 * Oklomsy * (+1)
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16:54:34 <esowiki> [[Long]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67895 * Hex96 * (+368) Created page with "Long is an esolang that really should not exist. The HELLO world program is this: <pre> Dwhhwxjwxgxshsxuxsysxhhaxhdhsxhsxhsxh print(string101010100101111001010101010101010101..."
16:55:05 <esowiki> [[Long]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67896&oldid=67895 * Hex96 * (+1)
16:55:31 <esowiki> [[Long]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67897&oldid=67896 * Hex96 * (-1)
16:56:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67898&oldid=67867 * Hex96 * (+11) /* List of esolangs */
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17:03:31 <int-e> ... so wrong, so nice: pl = read . ("[" ++) . (++ "]")
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18:00:21 <int-e> Oh yay, another variation on the intcode interpreter.
18:01:29 <int-e> (Purity means that synchronizing input and output takes extra effort... and as it turns out, that was not really required.)
18:03:25 <int-e> (while the description says that the hull painting robot can use input instructions all the time, the actual program nicely follows the patter of reading one input, then producing two outputs)
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18:06:52 <int-e> I've also started to abuse pattern guards a lot...
18:07:12 <int-e> > let f x | x <- x+1, x <- x*2 = x in f 4
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18:12:01 <fizzie> Yeah, my prediction that we'd've seen all of Intcode got obsolete in record time.
18:17:51 <fizzie> The one I have now has four I/O mechanisms. One to stdin/out with prompts for interactive use, one that's reads from / writes to a list for earlier problems, one which uses Python's thread-safe queues because I made that feedback loop actually run technically in parallel (I'm sure it's always 4/5 blocking for input though) and now one with just a pair of generic callback functions that do the robot.
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18:21:10 <int-e> evolution: http://paste.debian.net/1120691/
18:21:17 <int-e> (very minor spoiler)
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18:24:32 <int-e> Oh the day 2 one didn't have a type signature, but it would've been Int -> [Int] -> [Int].
18:25:19 <int-e> Maybe we'll see Intcode every second day? :)
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18:26:00 <int-e> fungot: do you like Langton's ant?
18:26:00 <fungot> int-e: ( and t f)) if you prefer; the effect is unspecified.
18:27:10 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67899&oldid=67844 * DmilkaSTD * (+119)
18:28:37 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67900&oldid=67899 * DmilkaSTD * (-8)
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18:53:38 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67901&oldid=67851 * Int-e * (+244) /* Example Programs */ Langton's ant
18:58:43 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67902&oldid=67901 * Int-e * (+3) days
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20:02:02 <b_jonas> fungot, are raspberries better than strawberries?
20:02:02 <fungot> b_jonas: i am using the fluid-let syntax ( very similar to fnord
20:05:01 <b_jonas> oh, that Intcode stuff, is that also about the Advent of Code? good for you. I'm busy doing ugly real-world stuff for work so I didn't bother with that now
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20:38:45 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67903&oldid=67902 * Int-e * (-78) /* Hello, World! */ a working hello world (the previous version executed undefined opcodes, apparently assuming they would be skipped)
21:31:45 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67904&oldid=67903 * Int-e * (+158) Restructure, improve consistency, reduce direct quotes from AoC site, and use less emphasis.
21:33:31 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67905&oldid=67904 * Int-e * (+3) missed a spot, as usual...
21:42:53 <int-e> Hrm, what are the alternatives to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Usability_unknown ?
21:49:38 <b_jonas> int-e: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Unusable_for_programming
21:52:57 <b_jonas> int-e: the Categorization page seems to say to me that there's no special category for languages that are usable for programming, I assume because most esolangs should be usable for programming, notwithstanding the large amounts of "brainfuck with some extra instructions but the loops can't nest" nonsense that some users post
21:52:59 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67906&oldid=67905 * Int-e * (+501) Computational class, sort categories.
21:54:20 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67907&oldid=67906 * Int-e * (-31) I believe Intcode (as of now) is eminently usable for programming
21:55:05 <b_jonas> but, as always, I may just be inventing things, don't trust me when I talk about esolang community traditions
21:56:29 <int-e> I take responsibility for the edit, obviously. It's no big deal, it's a wiki, people can overrule things.
21:57:11 <int-e> . o O ( let's rename it to int-code )
22:08:34 <int-e> shachaf: How's your SAT learning experience going?
22:09:18 <int-e> shachaf: I was asleep the last few times you talked about it.
22:25:28 <shachaf> int-e: Haven't touched it since the last time I talked about it here, I think.
22:41:40 <b_jonas> for a change, I'm listening to such pop music where the lyrics is pronounced clearly so I can understand every word without refering to a transcript of the lyrics
22:43:34 <b_jonas> though it also slightly helps that these ones are in Hungarian
22:43:55 <int-e> That's actually a remarkably awful google search term...
22:44:06 <int-e> Or at least duckduckgo search term.
22:44:59 <int-e> The thing in quotes.
22:45:54 <int-e> "awful" in the sense that none of the hits look in any way interesting... rather they look like actual reviews of singers and speakers of no significance.
22:46:22 <int-e> Not "awful" in the goatse sense.
22:47:23 <b_jonas> well, it's not particularly specific
22:47:31 <b_jonas> there are lots of things you could enunciate well or badly
22:50:55 <b_jonas> some other times I like to Youtube binge for multiple performances of the same piece of music or poem. it can be interesting to compare them
22:51:26 <b_jonas> I mean multiple good performances by different bands or performers
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23:13:29 <b_jonas> the songs on this album vary a lot in how well the lyrics matches the rhythm of the music
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04:37:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Grime MC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67908 * IFcoltransG * (+319) Created page with "Is this the sort of language where an interpreter would be impossible because it's subjective what a lyric means, or does it have a finite set of possible commands? If the lat..."
04:56:16 <esowiki> [[StackBeat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67909&oldid=37539 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* Other notes */ Typo
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11:00:54 <bunnyocto> or maybe it was /nick and not /rename
11:04:59 <bunnyocto> aight. let me check out the newest bf derivatives.
11:13:18 <bunnyocto> verify register bunnyocto azdixccwwmkk
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11:26:59 <int-e> `relcome bunnyocto
11:27:03 <HackEso> bunnyocto: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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11:30:07 <fungot> bunnyocto: ah well... thanks to intel addressing modes and variable-length opcodes it's not that
11:33:01 <bunnyocto> github workflows has a weird directory structure
11:51:54 <bunnyocto> Like require pull requests to have passing tests.
12:08:05 <bunnyocto> lel I can't review my own pull requests.
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12:18:10 <int-e> Oops, I believe I accidently got some AoC points.
12:39:46 <shachaf> int-e: Do you think surjections have right inverses?
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12:59:04 <int-e> Oh there are actually two issues here.
13:00:00 <int-e> One of convention, and one of choice.
13:00:02 <fizzie> int-e: I got some for the one time I was awake at 5am, and now I have to fight the urge to try again. :/
13:00:27 <int-e> fizzie: I was awake. I deliberately didn't look.
13:01:36 <shachaf> What's the axiom of convention?
13:01:41 <int-e> And now I was worried that today's second part was really hard so I might have earned points for it, but only because I momentarily misread the statistics page.
13:02:03 <int-e> shachaf: The conventional issue is which way function composition composes.
13:05:06 <int-e> shachaf: Also I had trouble connecting dots... while I typed "AoC" I thought and read the whole "Advent of Code".
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13:07:29 <shachaf> What should I call f and g such that f.g = id?
13:09:51 <int-e> f is a left inverse of g; g is a right inverse of f
13:10:38 <int-e> It's pretty uncontroversial this far.
13:10:50 <shachaf> I think those are pretty confusing terms.
13:11:07 <shachaf> But if you say that's uncontroversial, where's the controvery?
13:11:28 <int-e> doe (f.g)(x) = f(g(x)) or (f.g)(x) = g(f(x))?
13:11:44 <int-e> that's the confusion.
13:12:20 <myname> how so? it's clearly the first
13:12:30 <int-e> The latter happens in some category theory texts.
13:12:53 <int-e> Because they want (.) : (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> c)
13:13:00 <bunnyocto> also it's the haskell way thus muh
13:13:07 <int-e> and the inner -> are abstract anyway.
13:13:27 <int-e> As much as I like Haskell, it's not defining the world.
13:13:36 <myname> also, there are people that are using \subset for implication
13:13:59 <int-e> not \subset... \supset
13:14:23 <bunnyocto> no, but (f.g) x = f ( g ( x ) ) is more intuitive imo
13:14:36 <bunnyocto> but that may just be because I'm accustomed to it
13:15:04 <myname> that's the definition I am used to from math classes
13:15:10 <int-e> You'll be surprised how little people value other's opinion in general.
13:15:16 <myname> coincidentally, haskell does it that way
13:15:21 <bunnyocto> yep. And thus I don't value their opinions.
13:15:47 <int-e> Also some people really like >>>
13:16:13 <int-e> And I believe we've had at least one proposal to flip the order of arguments of (.).
13:16:20 <lambdabot> forall k (cat :: k -> k -> *) (a :: k) (b :: k) (c :: k). Category cat => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
13:17:02 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
13:17:17 <int-e> bunnyocto: The thing is, if you want to read math texts, you better keep an open mind about notation.
13:17:45 <int-e> And unfortunately that includes basic things like the order of arguments of function composition.
13:19:13 <int-e> That said, I /prefer/ (f.g)(x) = f(g(x)).
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13:42:09 <FireFly> I though the Haskell thing was to use (&) for the g(f(x)) case
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13:42:33 <FireFly> no need to pollute established notation with confusion..
13:43:17 <FireFly> I mean I like the forward-direction composition just fine, but under a differet notation
13:44:58 <Taneb> (&) is normally flip ($), not flip (.)
13:45:36 <Taneb> I've seen (f;g)(x) = g(f(x)) but that doesn't work as a Haskell operator
13:46:36 <FireFly> Clojure calls it (->>) IIRC, but that's more in a prefix, s-expr setting
13:46:56 <FireFly> but thee's he (>>>) from Category as mentioned, etc
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14:22:04 <wib_jonas> the order of arguments for function composition is simple. if you write the evaluation of the function f at input value x as f(x) or fx then the function composition is (f o g)(x) = f(g(x)) or (f o g)x = f (g x); but if you write it as x f or x^f, then the function composition is x (f o g) = (x f) g or x^(f o g) = (x^f)^g
14:22:51 <wib_jonas> and int-e, they're functions, so the left inverse and the right inverse are the same, we can just call it the inverse or inverse function
14:32:03 <int-e> wib_jonas: you might want to think that through
14:38:14 <int-e> wib_jonas: what is true is that if a function has both a left inverse and a right inverse then they're equal (and that implies the inverse is unique in that case).
14:39:08 <int-e> But existence is a bit of an issue.
14:54:33 <bunnyocto> f being left inverse of g and g being right inverse of f doesn't imply that f . g = g . f
14:55:32 <bunnyocto> wait so if f . g = id and h . f = id then g = h?
15:01:08 <myname> especially if the signatures differ
15:01:56 <bunnyocto> f .g = id -> h . f . g -> h . id -> h
15:02:48 <bunnyocto> since h . f = id -> h . f . g -> id . g -> g
15:05:12 <bunnyocto> h . f .g = id . g but also h . f .g = h . id thus id .g = h . id and id . g = g and h . id = h thus h = g = h
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15:06:46 <bunnyocto> now the question is whether there are functions (a,b) and (c,d) such that a . f = id and f . b = id and c . f = id and f . d = id but a /= c and b /= d
15:07:45 <bunnyocto> so that leaves us with a . f = id and c . f = id where a /= c
15:08:13 <bunnyocto> which trivially if a . f = id and c . f = id then a . f = c. f
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15:25:06 <myname> if you define equality of functions as the same mappings from input to output, id is unique
15:27:02 <bunnyocto> it's a function that isn't defined forall X
15:36:04 <bunnyocto> wouldn chr(0)+x work to convert to hex
15:37:40 <bunnyocto> I mean my current version (https://pastebin.com/C3kHSXMb) is probably awfully complicated and requires mem lookups
15:37:55 <bunnyocto> I could just add 0x30 to the nibbles
15:44:22 <bunnyocto> the guys making ASCII clearly didn't design for this.
15:44:45 <bunnyocto> on the other hand it would work if I wouldn't use ASCII
15:47:53 <bunnyocto> also I hate it when people say a byte is a number from 0-255
15:48:01 <bunnyocto> it's not accurate. bytes are typeless.
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18:00:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67910&oldid=67875 * Nirex0 * (+314) My First Edit as required by esolangs.org
18:00:34 <kingoffrance> bunnyocto, re: bytes (last i checked anyways) well more than that, eg. rfcs say "octet"; "byte" is totally arbitrary and IIRC basically IBM started doing it (engineers wanted 24-bits, so it was flexible for integer and some floating thing; but they found it was either no machine or compromise on this) and then everyone copied IBM
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18:01:00 <kingoffrance> i found that buried in an interview with a designer of that particular IBM CPU :) 8 bits is totally arbitrary from what i found; everyone just wanted to be "compatible" basically
18:01:31 <kingoffrance> and IIRC IBM might have even been trying to be "compatible" with some competitor in the first place! totally arbitrary from what i found
18:01:53 <kingoffrance> (the interviewed person didnt say this, but it was implied)
18:02:48 <kingoffrance> and e.g. knuth IIRC claims trinary would be more efficient (assuming everyone switched, economy of scale, etc.)
18:03:19 <kingoffrance> more efficient pricewise versus performance i mean, but only if everyone switched
18:04:18 <kingoffrance> i dont trust people who say "bytes" if you mean 8 bits "octet"
18:10:41 <arseniiv> [23:03] <kingoffrance> more efficient pricewise versus performance i mean, but only if everyone switched => is it that one argument about e-ary system? Because there it’s assumed that each state of each bit/trit/etc. is equally costly to make, which isn’t that true in reality — AFAIR bits are cheaper to make work reliably than trits, statewise
18:11:00 <arseniiv> sorry about timestamp, wasn’t mean to paste that :D
18:12:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67911&oldid=67821 * Nirex0 * (+10) Add: oof programming language (not to be confused with oof!)
18:12:30 <kingoffrance> i dunno, i think knuth says it in aocp so youd have to dig 3 volumes and whatever else i dunno if he ever finished them :)
18:12:44 <kingoffrance> if you google around you might find more detail
18:13:19 <kingoffrance> somehow he claimed either trinary or some other non-binary base would be cheaper for equal performance (paraphrase on my part)
18:14:44 <kingoffrance> apologies if i sound vague, not really "trained" in that kinda stuff
18:15:10 <kingoffrance> (and doesnt come up in real life programming for me, however interesting it might be)
18:15:55 <kingoffrance> (plus its been like 20 years since i skimmed that stuff)
18:20:21 <esowiki> [[Oof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67912 * Nirex0 * (+1351) Add: oof programming language (not to be confused with oof!)
18:22:54 <bunnyocto> but then presumably it's memcpied somewhere into the callee stack
18:23:01 <bunnyocto> I mean.. later pushes might destroy the struct on the stack
18:24:42 <esowiki> [[Oof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67913&oldid=67912 * Nirex0 * (+1)
18:26:20 <bunnyocto> oh well... who needs to return structs :(
18:26:48 <bunnyocto> just pass a pointer to the struct as the callee and let the caller fill that one in
18:30:48 <esowiki> [[Oof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67914&oldid=67913 * Nirex0 * (+6) Better Documentation
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18:32:03 <Jefe> Hi, my friend told me about a language where only the white space is significant, so all visible characters constitute comments. Anybody happen to know the name?
18:33:28 <Jefe> Well that would just make too much sense, wouldn't it?
18:33:32 <esowiki> [[Oof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67915&oldid=67914 * Nirex0 * (+30)
18:34:08 * kingoffrance cries himself to sleep that slashdot moderation is actually something missing from a gazillion other sites; at least slashdot's perl forum you could browse the -5 flamebait if you wanted; the modern web stuff just vanishes
18:34:44 <kingoffrance> murphy's law: someone can always do worse implementation of something you don't particularly like
18:35:39 <Jefe> That's kind of like "every bad idea will eventually be implemented in JavaScript."
18:36:34 <kingoffrance> we called it jabbascript or jabbadabbascript in ##programming about 24 hours ago ; as in node.js is modular like slicing a chunk of lard off jabba the hut and moving it somewhere else
18:37:29 <kingoffrance> (referring to node having 5000 dependencies i suppose)
18:39:00 <Jefe> The Signal desktop client is apparently written in Node. I ran it for a week, my load average wouldn't drop below 3.0, and frequently shot over 15.
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18:42:19 <kingoffrance> thats good, i dont feel bad for being cruel now
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18:51:52 <bunnyocto> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22593259/check-if-string-is-int-golang
18:52:48 <bunnyocto> I mean... the unicode.isDigit is bullshit.
18:58:08 <esowiki> [[Oof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67916&oldid=67915 * Dart * (-94)
19:01:25 <bunnyocto> oof has on OLen of 2 so 2 / 8 = 0 so it's executed zero number times
19:01:41 <bunnyocto> probably should be (OLen / 8 ) + 1 as well
19:02:04 <bunnyocto> means you can't express >>>> with this mechanism
19:07:59 <ais523> <bunnyocto> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22593259/check-if-string-is-int-golang ← the question is poorly defined; many of the answers produce different results in specific cases
19:08:20 <ais523> for example, is "123456789012345678901234567890" a string representing an integer?
19:08:46 <ais523> the answer depends on your use case; you can't convert it to an integer but in many cases you'd want to recognise it as one
19:09:06 <kmc> i've so far avoided starting an argument with my girlfriend about golang.
19:09:10 <kmc> she seems to be a fan
19:09:35 <ais523> in languages with compiled regexes, the regex solution is actually one of the most efficient ways of doing that, because it's basically a domain-specific language for generating string validators, and the compiler will have a lot of rules to optimise it
19:09:48 <ais523> but I suspect golang doesn't actually compile regexes at compile time
19:09:57 <bunnyocto> I don't know any language that does?
19:11:01 <bunnyocto> I don't think there are any reasonably good bindings to do GUI stuff with golang yet.
19:14:05 <kmc> I mean I'm not sure I'd say "rust does"
19:14:11 <kmc> i'm sure someone has a library that does it with a procedural macro
19:14:40 <kmc> i don't think the 'regex' crate does
19:14:52 <kmc> it suggests using lazy_static so that each regex is compiled once, but that still happens at runtime
19:15:10 <ais523> looking it up, it seems regex! isn't the recommended way of doing things that the moment
19:15:13 <kmc> I'm also sure someone has written a Lisp or Scheme regex library that does it at compile time
19:15:25 <ais523> so it's more like it could be done in Rust but isn't the default
19:15:32 <ais523> (that's disappointing, I thought it would be)
19:15:57 <ais523> I think Perl compiles regexes on first use rather than compile time, too
19:15:59 <bunnyocto> static memory safety is a neat concept.
19:16:05 <ais523> not sure though, its optimiser does weird things sometimes
19:16:30 <bunnyocto> it's just that most oldschool programmers are too scared of it yet so few use it
19:17:10 <bunnyocto> we had "tech discovery" meetings back at the place I worked
19:18:07 <bunnyocto> I don't know. People just aren't really fond of learning new concepts I guess.
19:18:45 <ais523> hmm, I suspect that most compilers will not generate the fastest asm for verifying that a string consists only of digits on any input, short of outright writing the asm
19:18:55 <bunnyocto> so we used golang. Which is awesome... better than python, C or Java
19:20:35 <kmc> Rust has a steep learning curve
19:20:42 <kmc> because it tries to provide all of safety, convenience, and performance
19:20:48 <kmc> this means it's nearly as complex as C++
19:20:55 <kmc> but the complexity is more necessary and less historical/accidental
19:21:22 <kmc> Rust is largely an attempt to take modern C++ concepts and build a similar language without the historical baggage
19:21:27 <kmc> and in fact those concepts are getting backported into C++
19:21:33 <kmc> (which will make it even more complicated, but that's life)
19:22:44 <kmc> Rust is a cool language with an annoying community and dickish leadership
19:22:50 <kmc> that is also life
19:23:03 <kmc> computers suck, people suck too but in a different way
19:24:24 <kmc> the Rust community is like the Haskell community, a bunch of really excited beginners who think Rust will solve every problem under the sun, plus they're full of themselves for being 'friendly and welcoming' but they don't want to hear about it if your experience is to the contrary
19:25:27 <kmc> 11:18 < ais523> hmm, I suspect that most compilers will not generate the fastest asm for verifying that a string consists only of digits on any input, short of outright writing the asm
19:25:33 <kmc> i've seen LLVM do some clever things in that direction
19:26:08 <kmc> if you have a switch-case with two branches over a set with less than 64 elements it will make a bitmask and use that as an immediate operand
19:27:56 <kmc> https://gcc.godbolt.org/z/Ce-LBo
19:28:35 <ais523> hmm: https://godbolt.org/z/n3PKGD
19:28:44 <kmc> ok gotta go
19:29:00 <bunnyocto> https://pastebin.com/WYsqm4aj is how I'd probably go about it if we're talking about no signs involved :D
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19:33:44 <ais523> I suspect the correct option is probably to use the asm instruction VPCMPISTRI, but good luck getting a compiler to generate it
19:34:37 <ais523> (I put in the check to make sure that the string's starting address was divisible by 32 to make sure that any resulting overread wouldn't cause issues with page faults, in case the compiler was scared to do an overread and that was suppressing the optimisation)
19:36:00 <ais523> this would be particularly good on long strings or if you were checking lots of different strings in a loop (because you can loop-invariant-code-motion the loading of the list of permitted character ranges)
19:38:51 <bunnyocto> so the string has to be <=128 bytes for pcmpistri?
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19:39:03 <ais523> bunnyocto: <= 128 bits for each call to pcmpistri (16 bytes)
19:39:11 <ais523> however it lets you know if the whole segment of the string you're looking at matches
19:39:22 <ais523> if it does you can just look at the next 16 bytes, and so on
19:39:34 <ais523> the length limit makes sense because this is using a hardware string-tesing circuit
19:39:43 <ais523> pcmpistri handles \0 itself
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19:39:58 <ais523> it has a friend pcmpestri for length-prefixed strings
19:41:33 <ais523> the basic idea is to use pcmpistri in a similar way to strspn to check how many bytes at the start of the string are digits
19:41:39 <ais523> then you look for the byte just beyond those and see if it's \0
19:41:49 <ais523> if it is, the string's entirely digits
19:42:01 <ais523> (you can then adjust for ensuring the string's nonempty, checking for +/-, etc., if you want to)
19:42:24 <ais523> if pcmpistri tells you that the 16-byte section of string you're looking at has 16 digits in it, you have to move onto the next section, otherwise you're done
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19:44:18 <ais523> (16 digits consecutively at the start, that is)
19:44:55 <ais523> unfortunately it wouldn't work for UTF-8 (you could make it work for UTF-16 though, at least if you confined yourself to ASCII digits)
19:45:11 <ais523> actually it does work for UTF-8 if you confine yourself to ASCII digits
19:45:25 <ais523> because you don't actually have to parse it
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19:53:57 <bunnyocto> my neighbour is singing since like 3 hours
19:54:43 <bunnyocto> ais523: thx for your explanations.
19:58:32 <b_jonas> "I suspect that most compilers will not generate the fastest asm for verifying that a string consists only of digits on any input, short of outright writing the asm" => the problem with that stuff is that "fastest" depends on whether you are allowed to assume 31 readable bytes after the end of the string or not, and we still don't have interfaces to malloc that even let you allocate vectors that way, or
19:58:38 <b_jonas> reference types or containers or any high-level abtstractions to track that info
19:59:30 <b_jonas> "I put in the check to make sure that the string's starting address was divisible by 32" => yes, that
19:59:48 <ais523> oddly enough, C doesn't allow aligned pointers as function arguments
20:00:07 <ais523> it supports aligned pointers but there's an explicit rule that prevents you putting an _Alignas on a function argument, or sneaking one in via a typedef
20:00:34 <ais523> (16 would actually be enough alignment, but I put 32 just in case the compiler could think of something clever to do with the 256-bit vector units)
20:00:40 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but you can put those things in a struct
20:00:48 <bunnyocto> why does it care whether a char* is aligned?
20:00:55 <ais523> bunnyocto: it lets you overread safely
20:01:14 <ais523> on basically all modern processors, there's a limit to the memory protection's granularity
20:01:28 <ais523> so, say, memory can only go from readable to unreadable at a multiple of 512, or a multiple of 2048
20:01:46 <ais523> so if you know the address is divisible by 16, either the first byte is unreadable or the whole thing is readable
20:01:58 <b_jonas> on a multiple of 4096 bytes on x86 actually
20:02:07 <ais523> I forgot the modern number
20:02:17 <b_jonas> and I think 8192 in linux userspace, but I'm not sure of that
20:02:17 <bunnyocto> yeh yeh page sizes and what not.... but how does this matter for this purpose?
20:02:18 <ais523> it keeps changing, wasting 4K of memory isn't really a big deal nowadays
20:02:38 <ais523> because if you have a string like "12", it might be right at the end of a page
20:02:45 <bunnyocto> if I make like uhm void bar() { char* __align(16) blubb = "blubberlutsch"; foo(blubb); }?
20:02:47 <ais523> so you can't read the first 16 bytes in case there's unreadable memory just after it
20:03:10 <ais523> bunnyocto: that works but the function isn't allowed to know that it was given a pointer that's 16-byte aligned, it just gets a char*
20:03:31 <b_jonas> and, I know I ranted about this a lot, I wish we could eventually transition to larger pages required system-wise, because there's a hard limit that the L1 data cache can be at most 8 pages large, and that's very often the bottleneck
20:04:17 <ais523> b_jonas: huh, why the limit?
20:04:18 <b_jonas> did izabera return after she asked that question about graph algorithm to which I first gave a stupid answer?
20:04:40 <ais523> like, it doesn't seem significantly harder to make the L1 cache bigger by doubling the page size, and by doubling the number of pages it supports
20:05:08 <ais523> in either case the main cost is going to be the silicon that actually stores the values in the cache, rather than the control circuitry
20:05:21 <ais523> and if the control circuitry is the issue, you might want to make cache lines longer instead
20:05:34 <b_jonas> ais523: the L1 cache has to have a very low latency, so it needs to find which cache line to return when it only knows the linear address, and then verify if that's correct after the physical address is computed.
20:05:34 <ais523> is the issue actually the TLB rather than the L1 cache? that would be more believable
20:05:57 <b_jonas> ok wait, I'm explaining that wrong
20:06:01 <izabera> b_jonas: i ended up running bfs from each node
20:06:14 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, the L1 cache works on virtual addresses? I'd have expected it to work on physical addresses (as the TLB that caches virtual addresses)
20:06:23 <b_jonas> the L1 cache needs to have a very low latency, so it has to do most of the computation when only the linear address is available, the physical isn't
20:06:52 <b_jonas> so how it works is that it finds the bunch of 8 cache lines whose address matches the linear address modulo the page size, then when the physical address arrives, it chooses one of those
20:07:00 <b_jonas> it has to be able to do this on two reads in parallel by the way
20:07:26 <b_jonas> in order to keep the latency low, it can't have more than 8 cache lines with the same address modulo page size
20:07:48 <ais523> that's not actually a limit of 8 pages, though; it's just a limit of 8 addresses that are on the same place within the page
20:07:58 <b_jonas> the size of the individual cache lines, which happens to be 64 bytes on x86, doesn't influence this
20:08:00 <ais523> there are a huge number of caching effects that have limitations like that
20:08:08 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, 8 page sizes of total data
20:08:38 <b_jonas> 32 kilobytes, divided to 64 bytes sized cache lines, such that each address modulo 4 kilobyte has at most 8 cache lines
20:09:13 <ais523> you could have more while retaining the virtual address lookup behaviour, though
20:09:56 <b_jonas> "it doesn't seem significantly harder to make the L1 cache bigger by doubling the page size" => you can do that only if the OS guarantees that there can't be small pages anywhere, not even in other processes, because processes can share memory, and even then the cpu would need extra circuitry to handle the compatibility node for old OSes that can't guarantee that, so it's a bit messy
20:11:29 <ais523> b_jonas: no, if you end up with more than 8 addresses in cache that would clash with each other, you just evict one to avoid hte problem
20:11:46 <ais523> but if the addresses happen to not clash, you can go with it
20:12:09 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it's definitely the L1 cache, not the TLB cache. the TLB cache is improved by making most pages large pages (2 megabyte in x86_64), while the OS can still allocate some normal 4 kilobyte sized pages, the TLB can handle the mixing reasonably efficiently
20:13:14 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you evict one if you have more than 8 addresses that clash, which means that the total L1 data cache (on a single cpu core) can be no larger than 32 kilobytes total, or 512 cache lines of 64 bytes if you wish.
20:13:59 <b_jonas> and 32 kilobytes is rather small, it would be nice to be able to increase that for some applications, because the L1 data cache is often the bottleneck
20:14:05 <b_jonas> it isn't always for all computations, obviously
20:14:31 <b_jonas> these cache lines could be from 512 different pages possibly
20:14:38 <bunnyocto> back in the old day we had 333mhz something
20:14:48 <b_jonas> or they could contain the entirety of 8 pages
20:16:40 <bunnyocto> also excel 2019 probably has still the same set of features as good old lotus
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20:22:57 <b_jonas> izabera: good, that's what I figured too eventually. you may have read my answer in the logs.
20:26:12 <bunnyocto> I don't think that current basic software is any more advanced than like 15y ago
20:26:27 <bunnyocto> sure... it looks less pixely but other than that
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22:39:21 <b_jonas> so the UK general election was today?
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22:40:09 <fizzie> Yes, the polling places just closed 40 minutes ago.
22:40:51 <fizzie> My phone tried to keep telling me how to vote, I don't think it realizes I'm not enfranchised.
22:44:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: you lied to websites that you're older than your real age because they don't allow you to use the website or buy drugs otherwise, and now your lie bites back in the form of election ads?
22:45:44 <fizzie> I don't think it's that.
22:46:46 <fizzie> I did want to share a picture of one of the most misleading infographics from the ads in our mailbox, but I threw it away already.
22:47:29 <b_jonas> you may be able to find a copy online
22:47:29 <fizzie> It had a bar chart for Tories, Labour and Lib Dems, and the bar heights were not to scale.
22:47:59 <b_jonas> was it one of these plots that show bars in 3D with exaggerated perspective for no reason?
22:48:49 <fizzie> It was flat, but the height difference indicating a 5 percentage-point difference was more or less the same as that for 9.
22:50:09 <int-e> well the glyphs are similar too so what's your complaint...
22:50:33 <fizzie> They had also drawn an up-pointing triangle on top of their own bar, but it didn't make any more sense even treating the top of the triangle as their bar height.
22:51:06 <b_jonas> what if you consider the areas of the bars, with the triangle included?
22:51:30 <fizzie> Hmmm, well. Too late now.
22:51:43 <b_jonas> search the web, there's probably a copy online
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22:54:13 <fizzie> I did find an article about generally misleading leaflets -- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50375532 -- though this is mostly about dodgy data and other misrepresentation, rather than graphical tricks.
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22:57:15 <fizzie> IMO they should just stop with this FPTP stuff.
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22:58:12 <b_jonas> another of those stupid power outages that they do some nights, when electricity goes down in the whole block for two minutes, then stays up for 10 to 15 minutes, then goes down for 2 minutes again
22:58:24 <b_jonas> I don't know why they do this so often
22:58:38 <b_jonas> so expect me to disconnect again within 10 minutes
23:00:23 <b_jonas> the internet takes two more minutes to come back after the power of course, and even mobile phone disconnects for half a minute at the start of the power outage before the aggregator for the cell tower starts up
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23:10:18 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe they're skipping the second outage this time?
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23:40:31 <esowiki> [[Oof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67917&oldid=67916 * IFcoltransG * (+94) Shamelessly plagiarised some categories from Ook!
23:45:15 <esowiki> [[Oof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67918&oldid=67917 * IFcoltransG * (+5) Moved to joke langs cat (w/ permission of author)
23:47:03 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67919&oldid=67886 * IFcoltransG * (+10) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ + Oof (from serious lang list)
23:48:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67920&oldid=67911 * IFcoltransG * (-10) /* O */ Move Oof to joke langs list
23:49:30 <esowiki> [[Oof!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67921&oldid=8487 * IFcoltransG * (+34) Added hint for disambiguation w/ Oof
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06:38:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67923&oldid=67873 * Quadril-Is * (+95) /* PNG of the program */
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08:08:39 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67924&oldid=67870 * Hex96 * (+52) /* External resources */
08:08:53 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67925&oldid=67924 * Hex96 * (+1) /* External resources */
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12:48:16 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67926&oldid=67900 * DmilkaSTD * (+1)
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15:11:33 <Soni> flags register is hot
15:11:52 <Soni> wish everyone used it
15:12:05 <Soni> most programming language don't have flags register
15:12:16 <Soni> most esolang don't have flags register
15:12:46 <myname> what do you mean by flags register? like the one that is used in conditional jumps?
15:13:56 <Soni> or for shifting carry
15:13:59 <myname> why should any high-level programming language explicitly use that?
15:14:33 <Soni> well, bash does have a flags register, sort of
15:14:42 <Soni> it has the success flag and that's it I guess
15:15:02 <myname> a return value is not really a flags register
15:15:11 <Soni> it gets stored tho
15:15:16 <myname> also, perl has way more magic variables than bash
15:15:36 <myname> i don't consider that good in any language i would want to seriously use, though
15:15:47 <Soni> anyway, my point is basically it'd be fun, in a painful way, to have a flags register
15:15:49 <myname> but i can see the appeal for an esolang
15:16:29 <Soni> and basically make every opcode use it somehow, either conditionally or using some value from it in computations
15:17:28 <Soni> also always change it, even if the change keeps it the same
15:53:11 <FireFly> I think most mainstream languages try to minimise pain rather than bolster it
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18:13:57 <HackEso> 2019-12-13 18:13:56.648 +0000 UTC December 13 Friday 2019-W50-5
18:18:30 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67927&oldid=67926 * DmilkaSTD * (+79)
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18:39:36 <HackEso> =@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143786977730804 .
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19:55:52 <fizzie> int-e: I think you may have been right about that "every other day" thing.
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21:28:12 <esowiki> [[The Temporary Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67928&oldid=67505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* Hello, World! */ because it was a space, cant do that. now with ! you can.
21:29:36 <esowiki> [[The Temporary Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67929&oldid=67928 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) /* Instructions */
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22:46:07 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67930&oldid=67907 * Fizzie * (+9) One more day.
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01:05:10 <b_jonas> ok, so Intcode is a language where the source code is written as integers in decimal separated by commas, it puts multiple fields of an instruction into a single integer, the fields are decimal, and the numbers aren't too large. does that remind you of anything?
01:05:23 <b_jonas> Santa Claus is trying to make a better BANCStar
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02:05:48 <zzo38> Is there a way to determine how much space a BASIC module needs in a code segment without creating a assembly listing file? Can the .OBJ file be parsed somehow to determine this?
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03:03:35 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67931&oldid=67927 * DmilkaSTD * (-3)
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03:46:32 <zzo38> I found information about the .OBJ file format, so I can write a program to parse it. (I looked at the hex dump to confirm that it is the correct format.)
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03:54:01 <kmc> is it like MZ format?
03:54:04 <kmc> what is the format
03:54:30 <zzo38> It is described at https://pierrelib.pagesperso-orange.fr/exec_formats/OMF_v1.1.pdf
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03:55:23 <ais523> Soni: the condition code / flags register isn't used in high-level languages (and eventually turned out to be a mistake in low-level languages) because it's hard to optimise well
03:55:56 <ais523> it takes a fairly complex static analysis to determine whether a value stored in a flag was placed there intentionally and needs preserving, or whether it's just an unwanted side effect
03:56:21 <kmc> this is why RISC-V doesn't have condition codes
03:56:32 <Soni> ais523: that's why it'd be perfect for an esolang
03:56:55 <Soni> ais523: also, you run something, then 20 opcodes later you use the result
03:57:11 <kmc> instead the result of a comparison instruction goes into an ordinary register of the programmer's / compiler's choice
03:57:13 <ais523> golfing languages are probably the genre that would most benefit from them
03:57:17 <zzo38> Not everyone uses high-level languages; some people use assembly language
03:57:19 <Soni> ais523: but you make the esolang so that stuff like that is required if you wanna be able to do anything with it
03:57:23 <ais523> but maybe designed syntactically rather than in execution order
03:57:44 <zzo38> (Still, many assembly languages work fine without condition codes)
03:58:02 <ais523> zzo38: right, but, e.g., the condition codes on x86 turned out to be a problem because they reduce the information available to the optimiser
03:58:05 <kmc> so a < b or a == b are handled the same way as a + b
03:58:31 <ais523> kmc: I thought of an improvement to this: add 1 more bit in registers than in memory addresses
03:58:40 <Soni> (in other words, make the programmer have to suffer)
03:58:46 <ais523> so, e.g., your 64-bit processor has a 65-bit ALU
03:59:09 <ais523> then instead of condition-code-dependent instructions like Jcc, you just look at specific bits of a number
03:59:26 <kmc> not sure i follow
04:00:01 <ais523> say you add two 64-bit numbers using a 65-bit register (and they were sign-extended or zero-extended as necessary)
04:00:31 <ais523> carry flag is bit 64 of the result, sign flag is bit 63 of the result, overflow flag is the xor of those two
04:01:14 <ais523> for zero flag you have to check that the result is 0, but it's easy enough to imagine a dedicated zero-testing circuit, your ALU needs one of those anyway
04:01:46 <zzo38> ZZ Zero does have a single condition flag (called "pflag"); many instructions use it as a result code since instructions have only two operands, for example LESS and GRTR and EQ all use it for the result of comparisons, and MOVE checks if a move is successful; you can then use JT and JF (or TLET and FLET) to conditionally jump or let. (There is also JZ and JNZ too, though)
04:01:48 <ais523> parity flag can be implemented like zero flag if you care about it, most people don't
04:02:22 <ais523> the nice thing about this model is that the same register that stores the comparison result also stores the addition/subtraction result
04:02:33 <ais523> reducing register pressure when both are relevant
04:03:15 <ais523> oh, hmm, I'm not convinced you can implement auxiliary carry in this model
04:03:33 <ais523> but that's a silly idea for a flag anyway, it's ridiculously specific and doesn't generalise well to most instructions
04:03:59 <zzo38> Still I don't like that Glulx doesn't have a carry flag, since then it is difficult to deal with numbers longer than 32-bits
04:04:14 <ais523> (it also needs a bit of tweaking to handle overflowing multiplies, unless you produce a double-width result)
04:07:29 <zzo38> (There are other ways it could be implemented also though, rather than using a carry flag; other way is to add a "add64" instruction)
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04:57:55 <shachaf> I'm getting in so much trouble lately, it's great.
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05:15:16 <moony> me and a few others are working on a computeri n MMindustry, which should be a fun proof of turing completeness. https://i.imgur.com/rwnvawO.png (pictured: 4 bit addder/subtracter)
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07:16:28 <zzo38> 6502 has PHP and PLP instructions to save the flags in case you need them for later.
07:25:45 <zzo38> And I think auxiliary carry is possible, if you have a special register to store the carry out (similar to how MMIX has a special register to store the remainder of a division, and other special registers for other purposes). (It is only for addition and subtraction of course, but there are some uses of it. The same register might also be used for shifted out bits of a shift operation.)
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07:55:09 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67932&oldid=67546 * YamTokTpaFa * (+540) /* I'd like to learn about AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! more. */
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09:45:28 <zzo38> Someone told me this week that cannibalism means eating parts of a human body which does not regrow (e.g. finger nails and hair will regrow so it doesn't count). But I cannot find that in the dictionary.
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13:56:34 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67933&oldid=67617 * Hex96 * (+72) /* Examples */
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15:01:26 <esowiki> [[Deutsch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67934 * CMinusMinus * (+387) Created page with "'''Deutsch''' is a language created by the germans at ~750 years A.d. ==Versions== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Name !! Year |- | Althochdeutsch || 750 |- | Mittelhochdeutsch ||..."
15:01:57 <esowiki> [[Deutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67935&oldid=67934 * CMinusMinus * (+12)
15:03:21 <esowiki> [[Deutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67936&oldid=67935 * CMinusMinus * (+52)
15:03:38 <esowiki> [[Deutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67937&oldid=67936 * CMinusMinus * (-2)
15:05:54 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67938&oldid=67826 * CMinusMinus * (+39)
15:05:58 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67939&oldid=67938 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
15:07:17 <esowiki> [[Deutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67940&oldid=67937 * CMinusMinus * (+7)
15:15:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67941&oldid=67920 * CMinusMinus * (+14)
16:06:34 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67942&oldid=58597 * Dart * (+0) Pretty sure No-op isn't required for turing-completeness
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19:33:13 <myname> how comes nobody maintains any ihaskell binary package in aur? :(
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20:09:30 <int-e> Somehow AoC is great for writing terrible code...
20:11:53 <int-e> (E.g., today's problem, done properly, would involve topological sorting. But a stupid fixed point construction works, too, it's slower, but as it turns out, plenty fast enough.)
20:23:55 <b_jonas> my job is also great for writing terrible code
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20:47:08 <int-e> fungot: is your code better than average?
20:47:08 <fungot> int-e: it was called ' afx'. i'm still just sipping at the scheme workshop in here?
20:47:34 <int-e> mmm ' afx', could be a fingerprint?
20:59:37 <fizzie> int-e: I did a topological sort because I was worried the straightforward approach wouldn't be fast enough. :)
20:59:50 <fizzie> The code's still terrible though.
21:00:03 <fizzie> But maybe not algorithmically terrible.
21:00:04 <int-e> I decided to worry later.
21:00:26 <int-e> And never got to the point where it mattered, not even for part 2, for which I reused part 1.
21:01:07 <int-e> (Which, I suspect, is the intended approach, because working things out backward is really messy due to all the rounding.)
21:01:38 <fizzie> Could be. I did a binary search using the part 1 solution.
21:02:03 <fizzie> I also wrote a small thing to convert the puzzle input (and examples) to dot format, to render them as graphs, just because graphs are pretty.
21:03:07 <int-e> fizzie: actually, in case I ran into performance problems, I was going to do something between the naive iteration and topological sorting: keep a working list of products that were affected in the last iteration...
21:03:33 <int-e> And I fully expected that to be fast enough.
21:03:52 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/day14-ex1.png to https://zem.fi/tmp/day14-ex5.png are the common examples, though the customized puzzle input was the prettiest (tangle-iest) one.
21:03:59 <int-e> Even though it's still quadratic in the worst case.
21:04:35 <int-e> looks like they're more wide than deep anyway
21:05:47 <fizzie> There's 16 levels in my puzzle input, though I don't think dot's levels are necessary a meaningful theoretical concept.
21:06:58 <fizzie> In particular, one of the levels just has one node in it, and that node has no edges from level L-1 or to level L+1. I'm guessing it's just some sort of heuristics.
21:06:59 <int-e> Hmm, what matters for me... number of iterations is bounded by the longest path from source (ore) to target (fuel).
21:09:01 <int-e> I guess I could count the actual iterations...
21:09:17 <int-e> (plus 1, because there's one extra iteration to detect the fixed point)
21:09:59 <int-e> 17 for me. So same depth as yours.
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21:11:40 <int-e> It's just 63 productions, 137 inputs anyway, not terribly large.
21:11:56 <int-e> < input tr -dc ',=' | wc -c
21:12:54 <fizzie> That gives 122 here, so at least it's not exactly the same structure.
21:14:07 <int-e> or maybe unlucky because topological sorting is even more of an overkill then
21:15:00 <int-e> Annoyingly though it still took me 35 minutes to get it right. Though I was tired...
21:15:26 <int-e> ...which may explain that I got zillions of type errors and struggled to pinpoint them.
21:16:22 <fizzie> It took annoyingly long for me too. Though the day leaderboard says 00:42:18 for rank 100, so maybe that's reasonable.
21:17:58 <int-e> part 2 took 6 minutes on top of that which is more like it
21:19:00 <int-e> I should probably stop looking at those times :)
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21:19:49 <fizzie> Heh, clicking at some of the people on the leaderboard landed me on someone's GitHub repo where they write golfed solutions to the puzzles using their own golf language.
21:20:48 <int-e> But FWIW, first star #100 was at 27:35 minutes
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21:57:25 <HackEso> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
21:57:41 <oerjan> i agree that this wisdom is technically correct hth
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23:21:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67943&oldid=67910 * Oerjan * (-81) Remove some redundancies
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23:24:52 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67944&oldid=67933 * Oerjan * (-72) Undo revision 67933 by [[Special:Contributions/Hex96|Hex96]] ([[User talk:Hex96|talk]]) (Not a truth-machine as it never prints anything.)
23:34:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67945&oldid=67923 * Oerjan * (+90) Unsigned
23:50:25 <int-e> "this" is complicated. -- Maybe this(!) is more appropriate for here than for ##math :)
00:23:11 <zzo38> Now I added fifteen new opcodes into ZZ Zero.
00:23:54 <zzo38> And also a new board flag, a new mode of an existing opcode, the ability to append rather than overwrite when printing to a file, and other stuff.
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00:53:47 <oerjan> <kingoffrance> we only do alchemy metaphorical riches <-- better than homeopathy ones hth
01:21:41 <int-e> Oh homeopathic riches?
01:25:02 <int-e> This makes me want to gauge the market for potentiated gold.
01:26:29 <int-e> fungot: how do you pronounce "gauge"?
01:26:29 <fungot> int-e: society of invasive cardiovascular professionals. we're on surgery here, ight?
01:26:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
01:27:48 <oerjan> fungot: that's a bit long for a pronunciation
01:27:48 <fungot> oerjan: consider the set of symbols though... yeah... you're the guy who came in here not yesterday he spammed up the channel
01:28:37 <oerjan> i have _never_ spammed the channel and my `sleds don't count
01:29:13 <int-e> countless sleds, how seasonally appropriate
01:29:58 <HackEso> The password of the month is naughty.
01:30:14 <int-e> Ah, right. (I honestly forgot what I picked.)
01:30:27 <int-e> I guess the password of the month is not very memorable.
01:30:45 <int-e> Which is something you want in a password, but for different reasons.
01:33:11 <int-e> If I were to pick one now I might go with "is going out with a bang."
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01:46:50 <int-e> fungot: will there be a next year?
01:46:50 <fungot> int-e: have i confused them? escape the space?
01:54:25 <oerjan> fungot: it's more of a time issue, i think.
01:54:25 <fungot> oerjan: everybody makes one, seveninchbread tells us what the interpreters can or can't do unless 1 is defined as () is a syntactic transformer?
01:55:09 <oerjan> seveninchbread hasn't been seen in a while, unless e morphed into a nick i didn't manage to track.
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01:57:24 <oerjan> 27 weeks says nickserv
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02:02:57 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling all right? You're being unusually coherent.
02:02:57 <fungot> fizzie: it implements a few features such as highlighting where exceptions were thrown, incredibly powerful syntax colouring system, and an output port
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02:06:54 <oerjan> uh oh i hope lota has a backup
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02:07:31 <oerjan> because it seems about time for the pa'anuri to start shooting back
02:10:11 <int-e> How about 4, to keep with the Apocalypse theme.
02:10:57 <int-e> oerjan: Hmmm, have we seen the design in the top-right?
02:11:03 <int-e> Where right is left.
02:11:17 <int-e> So the thing with spheres and rings.
02:12:20 <oerjan> i only remember the zeus thing that got blown up
02:12:28 <int-e> Hmm, scale. The Pa'anuri don't mess around... they might just open a gate and push a star through. Wouldn't that be fun?
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02:13:55 <int-e> But it looks like the gate is smaller than their gas giant planet sized (IIRC) healing ships.
02:56:59 <oerjan> depends on perspective
03:11:45 <int-e> True, I'm making big assumptions, but I can't be sure that they're big enough.
03:24:21 <oerjan> bah i spent an hour to find that zeus thing and it doesn't look the same at all https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2018-09-09
03:25:08 <oerjan> (partly because i misjudged which chapter it was in)
03:25:48 <oerjan> or well, _some_ similarities, but not the whole structure
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04:49:19 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67946&oldid=65703 * Hakerh400 * (+5327) Add quine program
04:54:23 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67947&oldid=67946 * Hakerh400 * (-55)
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05:58:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67948&oldid=67941 * Salpynx * (+12) /* M */ add MUSYS
06:00:53 <esowiki> [[Grime MC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67949&oldid=58571 * Salpynx * (+23) category
06:09:38 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67950&oldid=66465 * A * (-151)
06:13:59 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67951&oldid=67950 * A * (+471) /* Challenge: loop over a few values */
06:17:05 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67952&oldid=67951 * A * (+434) /* Challenge: loop over a few values */
06:18:18 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67953&oldid=67952 * A * (+194) /* Quick reference */
06:48:51 <esowiki> [[Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67954&oldid=67114 * A * (+56)
06:50:25 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67955&oldid=66426 * A * (-256) /* Volatile instruction minimalization */
06:53:17 <esowiki> [[Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67956&oldid=67954 * A * (+103) /* Usage in esolangs */
06:58:14 <esowiki> [[Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67957&oldid=67956 * A * (+36) Possible different mnemonics
07:13:12 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67958&oldid=67558 * A * (+480) /* Concrete Implementations */
07:16:28 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67959&oldid=67958 * A * (+25) /* Concrete Implementations */
07:24:16 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67960&oldid=67959 * A * (-9) /* Concrete Implementations */ Clean the program up
07:24:35 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67961&oldid=67960 * A * (+40) /* Concrete Implementations */
07:29:24 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67962&oldid=67961 * A * (+58) /* Concrete Implementations */ Make it easier for beginners to understand
07:31:41 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67963&oldid=67962 * A * (-92) /* Concrete Implementations */ Remove some dead code
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07:44:37 <esowiki> [[Arity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67964&oldid=67595 * A * (+140) /* In esolangs */ Add APL
08:07:09 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67965&oldid=67963 * A * (+405) /* Implementation */
08:07:47 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67966&oldid=67965 * A * (+56) /* Concrete Implementations */
08:12:54 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67967&oldid=67898 * Hex96 * (-11)
08:23:31 <zzo38> I know there is dual port RAM, but is there a variant that has random access write-only on one side and sequential read-only on other side (or vice-versa), and is there a variant that has random-access write-only on one side, and the other side is sequential read-only that clears the memory being read (so not strictly read-only)?
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11:00:46 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67968&oldid=67955 * JonoCode9374 * (+226)
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12:31:51 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67969 * Hex96 * (+48) Created page with "Muppp is an esolang made by [[User:Hex96|Hex96]]"
12:34:55 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67970&oldid=67969 * Hex96 * (+191)
12:40:05 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67971&oldid=67970 * Hex96 * (+260) /* Tokens */
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12:50:43 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
12:50:45 <HackEso> A Lie algebra is what you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size.
12:51:02 <b_jonas> Do the four simultaneous rotations of Earth for a lie algebra of four dimensions?
12:55:19 <HackEso> Lie groups are groups that try being too smooth for their own good.
12:55:32 <HackEso> rotations of earth? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:06:32 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67972&oldid=67967 * Hex96 * (+12)
13:08:21 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67973&oldid=67971 * Hex96 * (+108) /* Tokens */
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13:13:22 <kingoffrance> the funny thing about time cube guy: http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=gcide&Query=Civil+day The Babylonians and
13:13:22 <kingoffrance> Hindoos began their day at sunrise, the Athenians and Jews
13:13:22 <kingoffrance> at sunset, the ancient Egyptians and Romans at midnight. ; methinks his problem wasnt "science" it was bumping into "religions" who arent going to drop everything and switch
13:13:44 <kingoffrance> looks like he was trying to "integrate" all the (or at least the seemingly 4 major) systems :/
13:14:11 <kingoffrance> its not surprising the "bible" did away with the other systems :/
13:15:54 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67974&oldid=67973 * Hex96 * (+543) /* Tokens */
13:17:00 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67975&oldid=67974 * Hex96 * (+75) /* Tokens */
13:17:59 <kingoffrance> i only know that cuz i was researching lunar months once, and when you mentioned the time cube thing, it sounded familliar :/
13:18:55 <Lykaina> called my parents to wish them a good saturday morning
13:21:29 <Lykaina> hint: it's sunday morning where i am
13:24:16 <Lykaina> kingoffrance: astronemers begin their day at noon
13:25:02 <arseniiv> kingoffrance: oh, Babylonians and Hindu seem the most reasonable of all. Why start the day when you’re supposed to be sleeping, or going to sleep soon, when the actual blank slate is the morning
13:25:25 <arseniiv> oh so blank, it often needs coffee or tea to even become writable
13:27:20 <Lykaina> healthier and cheaper than coffee or tea
13:28:05 <Lykaina> (if you are already addicted to caffeine)
13:31:27 <Lykaina> had a dream i was a muggle in hogwarts
13:31:28 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: also there are current maps that face north, old maps that face east, Australian maps that face south, and Middle-Earth maps that face west
13:32:34 <kingoffrance> well i thought if i ever get far enough for my os i would allow such things, if someone bothers to set up all the tables, why not ?
13:32:35 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think starting the day during the night is the most reasonable, because then usually each period when you're awake is completely within one day
13:32:49 <b_jonas> starting in the morning wouldn't work well because not everyone wakes at the same time in the morning
13:32:51 <kingoffrance> not so much for esoteric value, just i dont like to hardcode things
13:33:36 <kingoffrance> i think i read once nasa had to do mars time, but they wrote a custom java app, didnt feel trying to make any OS do it was feasible :/
13:33:52 <kingoffrance> since reading that i always thought the OS was the proper place for such things
13:34:35 <b_jonas> Lykaina: re dream where you were a muggle in Mogwarts => were you reading too much fanfiction?
13:34:47 <kingoffrance> of course you likely have lots of hardware stuff that youd have to translate back and forth
13:35:34 <b_jonas> Lykaina: Pottermore nonsense about that one historical Muggle that got into Hogwarts as far as the Sorting then?
13:35:49 <Lykaina> and i woke before i could have sex with hermione
13:37:52 <Lykaina> who's the lesbian in hogwarts again?
13:38:44 <b_jonas> everyone if you look through enough fanfics probably
13:40:11 <b_jonas> including boys who change gender using magic such as the Polymorph potion
13:43:21 <Lykaina> didn't harry marry his best friend's sister?
13:44:18 <kingoffrance> Lykaina, Lykaina Lykaina what kind of dream is that? cant you just convert her?
13:44:55 <Lykaina> i was a muggle! i couldn't make hermione lesbian
13:47:47 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67976&oldid=67968 * A * (+71) /* More Interpreters */
13:51:11 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67977&oldid=67953 * A * (+46) /* More operators */ I give up on the confusing language
13:51:25 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67978&oldid=67977 * A * (-250) /* Lists */
13:55:55 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67979&oldid=67978 * A * (+382) /* Add two numbers */
13:56:23 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67980&oldid=67979 * A * (-117) /* More operators */
13:56:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: mmayybe; at least starting the day at six or four feels better than at twelve
13:57:48 <b_jonas> doesn't feel better to me. sunrise varies a lot, solar midnight varies only by half an hour, so starting at midnight is less arbitrary and follows the sun more closely
13:58:08 <b_jonas> (unless you live close to the equator, in which case sunrise time doesn't vary a lot, obviously)
13:58:10 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67981&oldid=67980 * A * (+148) /* Compare two letters */
13:58:41 <arseniiv> b_jonas: you shatter my dreams :P
13:59:02 <arseniiv> not that they are actual things I want
14:00:11 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67982&oldid=67975 * Hex96 * (+59) /* Tokens */
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14:01:18 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67983&oldid=67982 * Hex96 * (+50)
14:02:22 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67984&oldid=67983 * Hex96 * (+28) /* 1 character cat */
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14:05:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Muppp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67985 * Hex96 * (+38) Created page with "More programs here: ==More programs=="
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14:35:45 <b_jonas> fungot, do you watch airplanes?
14:35:45 <fungot> b_jonas: i'm thinking stdio, fnord and fnord
14:36:50 <Lykaina> i've seen Airplane!, does that count?
14:37:29 <Lykaina> oh, you were asking someone else
14:40:04 <arseniiv> Lykaina: ah I think it’s totally okay anyway
14:40:32 <arseniiv> . o O ( stdio, fnord and fnord => are stderr and stdout in the channel’s banlist? )
14:42:54 <b_jonas> yes, seeing Airplane counts
14:45:36 <b_jonas> fungot, is there a skeleton inside you?
14:45:36 <fungot> b_jonas: that's a fnord fnord
14:45:42 <fizzie> In fact, the following two words were originally "stdmath" and "stdctrl".
14:46:04 <fizzie> Which are sufficiently rare to not have occurred more than whatever times the cutoff was.
15:23:30 <HackEso> fnord? No such file or directory
15:24:44 <arseniiv> fizzie: oh, so it’s even a thing :o I thought fungot said that accidentally
15:24:45 <fungot> arseniiv: the problem is this: is a s/// joke of a fnord array /dev/ md0 consists of two hard drive partitions: /dev/ hda3 and /dev/ zero...
15:30:23 <b_jonas> ``` grep -c '<fungot>.*\<fnord\>' /hackenv/quotes # arseniiv: fungot says fnord a lot
15:30:23 <fungot> b_jonas: no processes. for opening files i would've used an hp in the beginning of the other
15:33:11 <arseniiv> fungot: what a fun day we got here, don’t you agree?
15:33:11 <fungot> arseniiv: the only scheme i know, i'm not sure what
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15:55:25 <b_jonas> fungot, which species of penguin is the cutest?
15:55:26 <fungot> b_jonas: you can use a simple translator from some other box look like it's published on paper too. i can't fix that right now. :)
15:56:41 <b_jonas> fungot: it's not urgent, you can fix it after New Year
15:56:41 <fungot> b_jonas: next will be a zone between the red and the blue whale. feels like goedel numbering somehow.
16:03:14 <rain1> can you recommend any recent science fiction?
16:04:22 <b_jonas> rain1: what media would you like? anime, live action movie, comic strip, novel?
16:05:24 <b_jonas> try Terry Pratchett, it's still recent enough
16:05:49 <b_jonas> or Andrzej Sapkowski's series, whatever it's called
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17:00:52 <b_jonas> fungot, why do lawyers and doctors invent crazy words for their jargon, rather than using good terminology like us in mathematics or computer science?
17:00:53 <fungot> b_jonas: that's not very helpful. rarely used, scope declaration... " global" clause first.)
17:04:28 <fungot> kritixilithos: nothing against sisc specifically,
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17:35:22 <b_jonas> is the IOCCC website down?
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18:23:21 <b_jonas> fungot, at what age do human babies start toothing?
18:23:22 <fungot> b_jonas: i guess so. do you want the oo docs for the rc. :p
18:28:09 <imode> how small can a single process' state be in any given process calculus.
18:28:34 <imode> I'm wondering if you can get away with storing two values, `left` and `right`.
18:40:26 <imode> the sparking idea is that I have a concurrent subset of my language, Mode, that uses only a few operations: spawn a process giving you back that process' ID, send a value to a process, and receive a value (from anywhere).
18:45:52 <esowiki> [[Klein]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67986&oldid=53624 * Salpynx * (+108) Add implementation link
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19:52:56 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67987&oldid=67930 * Fizzie * (+4) It keeps happening.
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20:42:33 <zzo38> I wrote a program to parse the .OBJ files for DOS program compiling (although the program that parses it does not itself run in DOS). I wrote it mainly because I wanted to see how much space a module takes up in the code segment. So, now I can see a line such as: 1 = PARA PUBLIC <0A129> "GAME_CODE" C="BC_CODE" It will tell me that the code segment is 0xA129 bytes long.
20:43:59 <zzo38> And then also that it uses 0x17A bytes of a data segment.
20:46:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: does gnu binutils do that?
20:49:21 <zzo38> As far as I can tell it doesn't support the DOS format.
20:50:08 <kmc> some NASM tool might?
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20:50:45 <zzo38> Maybe it does, although I do not have NASM
20:53:40 <zzo38> Have someone tried to make something with ZZ Zero? Then you can make your actual questions/complaints about it, including suggestions.
20:54:30 <zzo38> (Including if there is something unclear in the documentation)
20:57:12 <zzo38> ZZT does not have a print to file option, but ZZ Zero does include such an option.
20:57:55 <zzo38> Do you know how to improve the keyboard handling? Currently sometimes if you try to change direction quickly it doesn't work very well.
21:00:34 <b_jonas> buy a better keyboard? that's what helped me at work after I tried three different keyboards they could offer me
21:01:38 <b_jonas> the main problem was the strange habit I have that I press left control with the edge of my palm rather than with a finger, and some of these modern keyboards don't allow that
21:03:11 <zzo38> I mean in the software, in ZZ Zero, it is a DOS program written in BASIC
21:03:27 <zzo38> You can examine the code to see how it is doing currently
21:12:09 <zzo38> How many ZZT-likes are there now?
21:16:47 <zzo38> I wrote the file FUTURE.DOC now included with ZZ Zero mentions some possible ideas to implement in future, such as: joystick, ESC/P, FM music, ability to enable/disable rotations at runtime, eight dot mode, high score menu, etc
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21:56:10 <HackEso> fnord? No such file or directory
21:57:07 <oerjan> `t mkx bin/fnord//echo '? No such file or directory'
21:57:13 <HackEso> ? No such file or directory
21:58:03 <esowiki> [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67988&oldid=51821 * Kaynato * (-777)
21:58:42 <esowiki> [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67989&oldid=67988 * Kaynato * (-1) Updated description of link to implementation
21:58:56 <Kaynato> Whoops, didn't check "minor edit"
21:59:32 <oerjan> we'll have to ban you now.
22:00:40 <Kaynato> In other news, now that DOALC doesn't actually double the allocated memory for a Daoyu program, I feel it's much more possible to try my hand at demonstrably determining Daoyu's computational class
22:04:57 <int-e> I'm starting to regret sticking to a purely functional Intcode interpreter, it took me way too long to unravel the knot from output to input this time.
22:05:31 <int-e> A monadic interface would probably help ;)
22:08:00 <Kaynato> A monadic interface for Daoyu?
22:08:46 <int-e> Yes, for Intcode, or rather the interpreter I have.
22:11:23 <oerjan> <b_jonas> fungot, which species of penguin is the cutest? <-- i read that question and a crested one immediately popped up in my mind, but then i learned they're a whole genus
22:11:23 <fungot> oerjan: where are you now? someplace warm? has no behaviour defined on numbers; it may behave however it pleases, as long as i'm alive."
22:11:56 <oerjan> fungot: in my apartment, which is warm yes
22:11:56 <fungot> oerjan: programs aren't even copyrightable" to " not even snot".
22:12:17 <oerjan> fungot: i think the courts may disagree?
22:12:18 <fungot> oerjan: last time i did it in awk, befunge, whitespace, is replaced with one backslash and the remaining instructions may deal with crouching and standing up
22:13:14 <fizzie> int-e: I managed to land on something incredibly slow (a runtime of ~one minute) this time around. The first part asked for the least amount of moves, so I wrote a BFS with a (for simplicity) return-to-origin after each visit, which was kind of pessimal given what the map turned out to look like.
22:15:29 <fizzie> Switching to DFS for exploring the map and BFS for computing both the distances yielded about a 100x speedup.
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22:16:06 <int-e> I explored the map first, and realized that DFS will compute the right distance...
22:16:14 <int-e> ...so I took the lazy approach.
22:17:05 <int-e> But my enemy this time was <<loop>>
22:17:51 <arseniiv> may deal with crouching and standing up ==> I watch too many minecraft videos these times I immediately associate that phrase with it
22:18:25 <fizzie> I just added a "run to next output instruction" method on the side of the "run to halt" one.
22:18:42 <int-e> (the loops happen because I have a function that maps the output of the program to its input... can't consume the output before the corresponding input is produced)
22:18:59 <int-e> and this time, the interleaving is somewhat intricate.
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22:20:33 <int-e> So in the end, I took almost 80 minutes for part 1 and 8 more for part 2.
22:20:44 <int-e> And it annoys me a lot.
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23:09:59 <zzo38> I found a article about "ZZT Cliches", and I am not so sure of all of them. Anyways, XYZABCDE.ZZT has some things differences. It says "The most annoying songs are often repeated over and over again during gameplay, forcing you to turn off the music" but in XYZABCDE.ZZT it only plays the music once.
23:10:45 <zzo38> It also says "Gems usually represent currency in ZZT games, even if they're called dollars." but I think in many games they do not call them dollars.
23:10:55 <b_jonas> Is there also an option to mute music that you can toggle during runtime?
23:21:42 <zzo38> Yes. You can push B to toggle sounds/musics
23:32:59 <Kaynato> If it's fine to ask, are there any immediate tree-based computational models for which proving TC is sensible?
23:40:19 <Kaynato> Assuming that I can't contract edges either, hmmm
23:40:30 <Kaynato> Maybe I should still view daoyu as a bitstring-based language
23:45:28 <Kaynato> I'm quickly remembering just how obtuse and frustrating daoyu was
00:30:31 <oerjan> . o O ( next freefall better have a fan picture of florence eating soup )
00:32:02 <oerjan> possibly during a previous date
00:33:05 <oerjan> oh i missed the previous one
00:37:57 * kmc reads about ZZT-OOP
00:38:01 <kmc> seems pretty esoteric
00:39:27 <kmc> > ZZT-OOP is restrictive, but in a fun way. Because the language was only meant for simple adventure games, code that would be easy in other languages becomes a challenge in ZZT-OOP. However, some of us live for such challenges, and although it won't get you a date or a job, being able to code complex things - a fractal generation program, for example - using only an archaic game creation system is rather
00:39:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’
00:39:33 <kmc> impressive.
00:39:37 <kmc> i think under the right circumstances one could get a date or a job this way
00:47:03 <kmc> the ability to zap/restore labels, even in another object's program is interesting
00:49:25 <kmc> do all objects execute in lockstep?
00:58:32 <zzo38> Yes, ZZT-OOP is working like that. Have you used ZZT-OOP?
00:59:23 <int-e> oerjan: spoilers... but this doesn't sound like Florence will be eating soup any time soon
00:59:53 <int-e> oerjan: I believe we've seen her lap water from a bowl though?
01:00:02 <int-e> oerjan: I expect soup would be the same.
01:00:34 <zzo38> Although making stuff in ZZT involves more than just ZZT-OOP; there is also programming the stats and board configuration, including many things not possible using the built-in editor (you will have to use external editors, such as KevEdit or ZZTQED, for some things)
01:03:13 <kmc> zzo38: I haven't used ZZT or ZZT-OOP yet
01:03:32 <kmc> what sort of things are not possible using the built-in editor?
01:06:20 <zzo38> Preset laser beams, abnormal directions, abnormal speeds, statless pieces that are normally stat or vice versa, preset bullets/stars/beams, putting arbitrary elements under stats, setting the starting health/ammo/gems/torches/keys, and many other things.
01:09:38 <oerjan> int-e: you're just not using your imagination tdnh
01:11:42 <int-e> oerjan: there won't be another noodle incident.
01:12:13 <oerjan> also i said fan picture
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01:42:56 <Lykaina> ever hear of something called toki pona?
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01:48:40 <kmc> Lykaina: looks interesting
01:53:09 <b_jonas> Lykaina: yes, and I decided it's a really bad idea
01:54:00 <b_jonas> (or at least it's not an idea that I like)
01:54:17 <b_jonas> (could be worth as an esoteric experiment for other people, just to see why it doesn't work)
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02:08:59 <Kaynato> Is there any good way to prove something *isn't* TC? Hmm
02:12:50 <b_jonas> Kaynato: the most common way is to prove that you can translate the program of the language to finite state pushdown automata
02:13:18 <b_jonas> plus there are some more trivial special cases that are easier to prove
02:13:26 <oerjan> prove that you can predict its equivalent of the halting problem
02:14:54 <b_jonas> in Slashes, what is the simplest way to write an infinite loop that fetches a new pattern infinitely many times?
02:15:21 <b_jonas> not necessarily a different pattern, just a new pattern, it doesn't loop within a single substitution, such as a substitution with empty pattern
02:16:19 <oerjan> as far as i know you need a quine-like construction once you have more than one substitution involved
02:17:01 <b_jonas> Kaynato: oh, and there are programming languages that can only do primitive recursive loops, but that comes up less often
02:17:02 <oerjan> but maybe you could do a special case just for an infinite loop
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02:17:30 <Kaynato> Ahh... I'm not entirely sure if that's the case for this one
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02:21:30 <Kaynato> I'd look more at treating daoyu as a FSPA but the self-modification and obtuse data structure make it ... problematic to wrap my head around
02:24:16 <b_jonas> oh, I should check Rosetta Code, maybe it has such a program
02:24:35 <b_jonas> Kaynato: the usual abbreviate is PDA for some reason
02:25:11 <b_jonas> note though that that can refer to both the deterministic version and the nondeterministic version, which are different
02:26:06 <b_jonas> nope, can't find anything about /// on Rosetta Code
02:26:36 <oerjan> it may be hard to search for
02:26:58 <b_jonas> but they usually have an index page for every language
02:28:59 <b_jonas> I'd like to note that such an infinite loop in Fuun DNA is much simpler because, even though it only does one substitution for each pattern-replacement that it reads, the pattern can wildcard match and the replacement can copy matched parts, so it can just duplicate whatever is ahead if it, leading to a simple print<< x2 style quine
02:30:29 <b_jonas> hmm, I wonder if anyone ever made a quine in Fuun DNA+RNA, one that outputs its DNA code graphically
02:38:00 <fizzie> int-e: For fun, bolted a quick disassembler to the Intcode interpreter and added labels and comments to my day 15 input. Was actually relatively straightforward.
02:38:34 <int-e> fizzie: try it on my hello world program (on the wiki) :)
02:38:57 <int-e> (it's actually tame)
02:39:42 <int-e> (there is self-modification, but only on immediate parameters)
02:44:11 <fizzie> It outputs http://ix.io/24zb and then barfs on 29 being an "illegal opcode".
02:44:53 <int-e> which is fine because that's all data
02:45:02 <int-e> > ord 'e' - ord 'H'
02:45:59 <fizzie> Oh, the 0 between 'l' and the other 'l' is also the 0 for the jump target?
02:46:02 <int-e> though I guess it could start outputing 'db <nnn>' stuff.
02:46:20 <fizzie> Yes, that's probably what it would do if it was a real disassembler.
02:46:59 <fizzie> FWIW, there was exactly one instance of self-modification in the puzzle input, and it was on "setlt <...> #N VAR" instruction, where it was used to do indirect addressing of memory.
02:47:04 <Kaynato> Is it dishonorable to respecify an esolang to make it TC on the grounds that otherwise, proving or disproving TC is a nightmare? :(
02:47:08 <fizzie> (To update the <...> part.)
02:48:14 <Kaynato> after reimplementing daoyu with lazy data structures, SIFTS from before turned out to be hideous and a total horror
02:48:23 <int-e> Kaynato: However, if the TC status is uncertain it will probably attract more attention.
02:48:46 <Kaynato> daoyu doesn't attract much attention, ahh
02:49:23 <Kaynato> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Daoyu
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02:52:01 <Kaynato> I'm probably just wasting my time and energy trying to do things with it :s
02:55:15 <esowiki> [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67990&oldid=67989 * Kaynato * (+427) Annotate the running example
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03:06:39 <imode> never assume that.
03:10:37 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67991&oldid=64201 * Salpynx * (+616) /* Examples */ Hello World
03:11:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Minecraft Pistons Hello World.png]]"
03:13:53 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67993&oldid=67991 * Salpynx * (+118) /* Hello World */ Implemented in Minecraft pistons
03:15:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Pnp-xx.png]]"
03:20:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Pnp-split.png]]"
03:22:13 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67996&oldid=67993 * Salpynx * (+162) /* Infinite Loop */ Minecraft implementations of other simple examples
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06:14:32 <esowiki> [[User:12Me21]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67997&oldid=60102 * 12Me21 * (-761) Replaced content with "wish I had a BANCStar interpreter :("
07:07:24 <zzo38> How can you write zero with roman numbers?
07:12:29 <zzo38> It is what I thought
07:12:49 <zzo38> (I do know how to write fractions with roman numbers, though.)
07:20:05 <kingoffrance> i see an "N" "NULLA" but you'd have to google to see where i saw that
07:20:57 <kingoffrance> (i might have done the "N" myself and it was specified some other way and i thought "N" was easier e.g. for ascii)
07:21:48 <kingoffrance> theres also ( vinculum that look like C and horizontally-reversed C, but i dont recall what those are used for; there are some variants from what i recall, whether nulla and vinculum's are used or not
07:22:29 <kingoffrance> i just used '(' and ')' for vinculums to specify in e.g. ascii
07:26:14 <kingoffrance> also, observe my local dialect "variant" use of apostrophe in vinculum's
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08:03:47 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67998&oldid=67984 * Hex96 * (+38) /* Tokens */
08:08:54 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67999&oldid=67998 * Hex96 * (+182) /* Example Programs */
08:18:59 <kingoffrance> im not sure, i vageuly recall nulla might be it is supposoed to look like O with / through it, aka "empty set" symbol; i could be way off
09:07:53 <b_jonas> this isn't a particularly robust script
09:08:06 <b_jonas> my excuse is that I basically lifted it off from a golf solution
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09:20:56 <zzo38> Yes, you can see it is not work with some stuff. (TeX will produce no output if you try to convert any zero or negative number into a roman number, and multiples of one thousand will always use M for each thousand.)
09:22:18 <zzo38> The "Game of XYZABCDE" series is numbered by roman numbers, so I try to figure how to name a prequel; I have Part I, and then the sequel is Part II, and after that is Part III and then Part IV. But, then you would have "part zero", although I suppose Part S (meaning half) can still be possible
09:25:38 <zzo38> (Same can be true of any other series of something that will be named by roman numbers.)
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09:26:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: does TeX do that with or without an error/warning message?
09:27:01 <zzo38> There is no error/warning message.
09:28:46 <zzo38> You can use \romannumeral-` to absorb the next character without interpreting it, which is sometimes useful in macros if the next character would be { or }
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09:45:36 <zzo38> There are many kind of "tricks" that can be made with TeX.
09:49:29 <zzo38> That is one of them (I forget where I read it). Another, that I think I made up by myself, is to use an insertion with alternating marks and penalties and then use \vsplit to extract the marks in the output routine; since \write will only work if a page is shipped out and will not preserve tokens exactly, using this other way can sometimes be helpful.
09:51:38 <zzo38> (Insertions are normally used for such things as footnotes, but can also be used for many other purposes, such as this.)
09:57:17 <zzo38> Appendix D of the TeXbook lists many kind of tricks possible with TeX, too.
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11:23:14 <kingoffrance> https://familypedia.wikia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals theres a little info about "N" for "NULLA"
11:28:26 <kingoffrance> that page says the ( ) are called apostrophus, and vinculum are overlines or |, so whatever i read long ago was either confused, or they are somewhat interchangeable and i perhaps settled on input using ( ) for simplicity, but the number could be displayed as either ( ) or overlines, |, etc.
11:29:09 <kingoffrance> (i.e. i may have just chosen ( ) for simplicity of input, and called it "vinculum" on the theory i could output/display the overlines and/or | stuff )
11:31:14 <kingoffrance> (i.e. i probably wanted a standard ascii-like input format, user could pick their "output style")
12:03:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:12Me21]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68000 * A * (+71) Created page with "[https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar There is a BANCStar interpreter.]"
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13:03:38 <cpressey> > let a = 3 in let b = a in let a = b + 3 in a
13:05:18 <cpressey> > let a = 3 in let a = a + 3 in a
13:31:09 <Taneb> > let a = 3 in do a <- pure (a + 3); pure a
13:31:13 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘m0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M336512966164...
13:31:13 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show (m0 Integer))’ from being solved.
13:31:24 <Taneb> > let a = 3 in runIdentity $ do a <- pure (a + 3); pure a
13:31:37 <Taneb> The worst possible workaround!
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14:40:46 <rain1> terry tao is working on collatz problem
14:40:51 <rain1> https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2019/09/10/almost-all-collatz-orbits-attain-almost-bounded-values/
14:51:10 <rain1> i found a story to read: ted chiang short stories book
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16:20:17 <HackEso> f2c? No such file or directory
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17:43:46 <HackEso> -123456789.00°C = -222222188.20°F
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18:15:25 <bunnyocto> aight. how many attempts do I need to write memcpy and memcmp correctly in assembly :D
18:16:18 <kmc> ah a nice exercise
18:16:21 <kmc> which architecture
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18:27:24 <bunnyocto> but apparentely my assembler has a bug with address calculation
18:29:28 <bunnyocto> or the assembler is ignoring the origin directive
18:37:46 <rain1> what books are you reading?
18:55:54 <arseniiv> rain1: reading Egan stuff lately, mostly stories now, but several years ago I read novels like Schild’s ladder (that was actually a first book of his I read, and because of an acquaintance’s advice)
18:56:42 <arseniiv> though I think this one dive is almost completed now, I’ll resume then with webserials’ updates
18:57:47 <bunnyocto> the assembler produces wrong code :(
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19:04:04 <bunnyocto> http://codepad.org/zBkxEUhC <_ yeah all right no wonder
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19:26:36 <bunnyocto> kmc: http://codepad.org/53TtacHM <- there you go
19:37:24 <bunnyocto> (.l is a label, .x is an exported label)
19:37:33 <bunnyocto> (.adrN is "load address into register N")
19:37:45 <bunnyocto> (.xadrN is the same thing but for exported labels)
19:38:14 <bunnyocto> (push and pop require an explicit stack pointer register)
19:38:59 <bunnyocto> (comparison jumps implicitly use rc for the target address)
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19:53:53 <bunnyocto> I guess one downside is that you can only load 32bit constants into ra,rb and rc.
19:54:01 <bunnyocto> otherwise you need a load plus a mov
19:57:46 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: re memcpy and memcmp, if it's for x86_64 or x86_32, get a well-written one from https://www.agner.org/optimize/#asmlib ; for other archs get them from gnu libc or libgcc, I don't know which one has it these days
19:58:18 <b_jonas> for an esoteric architecture
19:58:27 <b_jonas> yeah, then you might be out of luck, unless it's some well-known one
19:58:43 <b_jonas> rain1: Umberto Eco books right now
19:59:42 <rain1> i think i read one about the pendulum
20:01:46 <b_jonas> I also have a Sapkowski book here, lined up for read later
20:07:28 <bunnyocto> well you could use ldw (load word) instead of ldb (load byte) and copy 4 bytes at a time
20:07:54 <bunnyocto> but as of now speed is not my concern :)
20:08:04 <bunnyocto> gotta get functionality running, optimization is for later
20:09:22 <bunnyocto> you could even use the push instruction for that I guess.
20:09:45 <bunnyocto> push x y is basically memory[x] = y; x += 4;
20:09:55 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: maybe make your compiler optimize copies of compile time known short length specifically, because that's the most common case. just make sure it works if you copy with the source and destination pointers being exactly equal.
20:17:50 <bunnyocto> I'm working on a project I call bootstrap.
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20:19:08 <bunnyocto> It has the parts: create and implement a CPU. Implement an assembler, linker, disassembler. Implement an OS. Create and implement a "high level" language in assembly. Then create and implement it in said "high level language"
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20:22:24 <rain1> i ssthat nand to tetris?
20:25:11 <bunnyocto> I've just always wanted to do this.
20:25:23 <bunnyocto> Maybe i'll go further and do some VHDL maybe
20:25:33 <bunnyocto> so that I can load it onto a nano FPGA or someting.
20:27:51 <bunnyocto> I have nothing better to do might I say
20:28:26 <rain1> its a cool project
20:32:09 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: look at Magic-1 at least, to learn from other people's failures in such a project, and look at other projects he links to
20:42:33 <rain1> does anyone know tensor products of modules?
20:42:35 <rain1> how do I work out Q[x]/(x-1) (x)_Q Q[x]/(x+1) ?
20:43:08 <rain1> nvm i just realized its = Q[x]/((x-1) + (x+1))
21:07:56 <zzo38> I know some instruction sets have memcpy and/or memcmp are built in operations.
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21:13:17 <zzo38> Although some only have built-in memcmp to compare if it matches or not and not to determine the sort order.
21:14:46 <zzo38> Glulx has mcopy to copy a memory block (which may be overlapping), and it is possible to use the linearsearch opcode to check for matching or not matching memory blocks.
21:17:59 <zzo38> For example, you can write "linearsearch X,Length,Y,0,1,0,5,$" to check if the memory blocks at X and Y with the specified length are matching or not. (You can also use the linearsearch opcode to implement strlen, too.)
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21:36:09 <b_jonas> fungot, in English, what do you call it when a men's suit jacket has buttons in two parallel columns?
21:36:09 <fungot> b_jonas: hey... :) so gimp, emacs, java, assembler
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22:30:55 <b_jonas> fungot: apparently they're called "double-breasted jacket"
22:30:55 <fungot> b_jonas: someone once said the jungle is at http://stream1.jungletrain.net:8000 do
22:31:12 <int-e> Oh, first hard AoC task.
22:32:35 <int-e> Also somewhat nasty...
22:34:51 <fizzie> I liked it, but it is kind of a trick.
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22:35:54 <fizzie> Predicting a lower-than-usual 2-star : 1-star ratio.
22:37:04 <b_jonas> I am a zero-star programmer, since I live in a city that's so bright even during the nights that I can't see any stars on the sky
22:37:18 <b_jonas> only the Moon, the Venus, and clouds
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22:37:25 <b_jonas> and lots of reflected city lights
22:37:56 <b_jonas> yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit
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22:38:12 <b_jonas> I can walk a few hundred meters to get to places where I can see the brighter stars
22:38:26 <b_jonas> but zero-star programmer sounds nicer
22:42:33 <int-e> fizzie: Now I'm wondering whether the periodicity of the input can be exploited. (I'm only exploiting a property of the offset, and I suspect that's kind of essential.)
22:45:45 <fizzie> I thought about that before coming up with the trick, but it seemed like (at least for an arbitrary digit) the least common multiple of the periodicity of the signal and the pattern (which I'm calling W for 'wavelet' in my commentary, incidentally) would be a pretty large number. So it wasn't at least an obvious speedup.
22:46:10 <fizzie> (I don't think all the example and the input offsets would have had the property if it wasn't intended to be done that way.)
22:47:27 <int-e> fizzie: Hmm. Maybe we have different approaches.
22:49:07 <HackEso> advent of code? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:49:43 <b_jonas> `slashlearn aoc/Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:49:45 <HackEso> Learned 'aoc/advent of code (aoc) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https:': adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:50:58 <b_jonas> sorry, I'd have fixed it too
22:51:10 <HackEso> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
22:51:36 <int-e> Oh I thought it said something about preventing accidents...
22:53:39 <b_jonas> `slashlearn aoc//Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:53:42 <HackEso> Learned 'aoc': Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:53:47 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
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23:02:50 <b_jonas> `slashlearn euclid//Euclid is a short geeky game in which the goal is to do Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions in as few steps as possible. It runs in the browser, found at "http://www.euclidthegame.com/". It was popular among #esoteric regulars in 2016-07.
23:02:52 <HackEso> Learned 'euclid': Euclid is a short geeky game in which the goal is to do Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions in as few steps as possible. It runs in the browser, found at "http://www.euclidthegame.com/". It was popular among #esoteric regulars in 2016-07.
23:04:26 <b_jonas> we should document these community fads
23:04:52 <shachaf> They're called "Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions" because they're constructions similar to the game Euclid?
23:05:44 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68001&oldid=59060 * Challenger5 * (-10) Simplify Turing machine
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23:09:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, or at least not the browser-based game. I have on my bookshelf Hajós's great reference book to elementary geometry, and in chapter 22 it introduces Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions. The book was published in 1960, so it definitely predates any browser-based games.
23:09:30 <b_jonas> Though of course the browser-based game could be just a modern implementation of an older game, just like how there are browser-based chess games.
23:12:41 <b_jonas> Ok, now I'm imagining children born in the 21st century who meet chess as a browser-based video game first, and are later astonished to find out that it's centuries old and used to be played with carved wooden pieces or steps sent in snail mail.
23:13:31 <b_jonas> Actually I think I even read an anecdote of that sort somewhere on the internet about Go.
23:15:09 <b_jonas> And unlike chess, compass and straightedge constructions make much more sense as a video game than on paper, because on paper your constructions get imprecise very quickly. You can get somewhat better if you're careful what steps you take, and if you know how to handle the tools like rulers as well as an architect, but then it's no longer the simple abstract system of compass and straightedge
23:17:25 <b_jonas> Obviously you could also say that typing is more convenient on a computerized word processors on a computer and printer than on electromechanical typewriters where you can edit text by cutting ticker tape, and that even that makes more sense than typing documents on a mechanical typewriter where you can make at most three or four copies at a time with carbon paper, and you have to retype the whole thing
23:17:31 <b_jonas> if you need more than that many copies.
23:20:56 <arseniiv> I used a mechanical typewriter for fun for a time, I never made anything neat enough
23:21:14 <arseniiv> and there were oh so many typos
23:21:43 <arseniiv> and I beaten all my fingers off
23:21:48 <b_jonas> I played with two mechanical typewriters when I was young, just for playing: a normal one and one of those toy ones that you buy for children and aren't suitable for real applications because IT DOESN'T HAVE LOWERCASE LETTERS;
23:22:37 <fizzie> Suitable only for angry applications.
23:22:52 <zzo38> I would sometimes use a typewriter for typing an address on an envelope.
23:22:53 <b_jonas> and then, much later, I used a more modern electronic typewriter with hundreds of bytes of RAM buffer so you can set it up to not immediately type a line so you can backspace errors without any physical remains, to learn typing
23:23:05 <arseniiv> now you remind me what traditions there were for typing roman numerals on cyrillic-only typewriters (almost all of them here)
23:23:08 <b_jonas> though of course that wasn't when I really learned to type, it's IRC that did that
23:24:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: cheaper typewriters in Hungary traditionally omitted three letters: íúű. you can find older manuscripts written without those letters.
23:25:23 <b_jonas> and of course those typewriters also don't have the digits 0 and 1, so o and l were used instead
23:26:18 <b_jonas> and even the better typewriters don't have all the symbols that mathematicians use for formulas, so mathematical manuscripts use handwritten greek letters, and you use underlining and double underlining to mark bold and italic variables when you want to be clear
23:26:52 <arseniiv> 1 often looked as I already, and for V one used У (and Х for X, and what for L, I don’t remember at all, but surely that should have occurred sufficiently rarer), but that’s not all: for economy or what, I’ve usually seen II typed as П and III as Ш. Now that’s really eclectic: 1, П, Ш, 1У, У, У1, УП, УШ, 1Х…
23:28:15 <b_jonas> arseniiv: is that used in legal texts, which often number sections or lists in roman numerals, sometimes in lowercase?
23:28:17 <kingoffrance> chess was also occasionally played with real people as the pieces: https://archive.org/details/TheSeventhSealAFilm/
23:28:25 <arseniiv> this looks more in context printed in the a typewritery font, though. In a sans serif it doesn’t invoke too many associations for me here in my IRC client
23:28:45 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: yes, there were performances of live chess
23:29:52 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: also chess sets that are more decorated than the ordinary carved ones, ranging in price from the ordinary tourist souvenier ones up to ones you find in museums that inherited royal collections
23:30:25 <kingoffrance> that makes total sense; billiards was supposedly for royalty at first, now in bars
23:30:27 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well sure, we're programmers, we use fonts where 1 and l look different
23:30:38 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: is that used in legal texts, which often number sections or lists in roman numerals, sometimes in lowercase? => this is an interesting question. I haven’t been in time to see many such typed documents, but I think here lower-case romans should have been a rare occasion. Hopefully someone wrote about that, but it wasn’t occurred to me to find out until now
23:31:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I haven't seen typewritten legal texts either, admittedly, only printed and online ones
23:31:17 <b_jonas> but they do sometimes have lowercase roman sequences
23:32:02 <b_jonas> plus the weird § sign that's used only in legal texts
23:32:22 <b_jonas> admittedly mathematical texts have much more unique weird signs
23:32:44 <kingoffrance> oh im almost certain my mother's electronic typewriter had that :/ not on my computer keyboard
23:32:50 <zzo38> A section sign is sometimes used in documents other than legal texts
23:33:40 <arseniiv> here we are also accustomed to that § sign, it’s often used in school textbooks and I think many non-school ones still
23:33:59 <b_jonas> dunno, I only see them in legal texts
23:34:56 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> admittedly mathematical texts have much more unique weird signs => I like there are plethora of signs for [beginning and] ending proofs
23:35:29 <zzo38> Section sign is included in the PC character set (for whatever reason they decided which characters to put, I don't know), so like everything else in the PC character set they are sometimes used in computer games for PC
23:39:17 <b_jonas> that sign has the shortcut \S in plain TeX, and a place in one of the base fonts of plain TeX, so it can't be too rare
23:39:48 <zzo38> Yes, it is also included in Plain TeX
23:40:22 <b_jonas> yes, it's also included in iso-8859-1 and CP437, but that makes more sense if it's used in legal texts, because they wanted to sell those PCs and printers to people who work with legal texts
23:41:38 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that is something they may wish to do
23:45:33 <b_jonas> about today's http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/love-5 , I think that the solution in https://pbfcomics.com/comics/nice-shirt/ may work better
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06:17:31 <zzo38> Empathic Healer {2WB} Creature - Cleric Horror (2/2) ;; Lifelink ;; First strike ;; {T}, Pay X life: Prevent the next X damage to target damageable this turn.
06:21:31 <zzo38> Hymn to Aurora {1WG} Legendary Enchantment ;; +1: Add one mana of any color. ;; +1: Change all manas in your mana pool into a single color of your choice. ;; -X: Target player gains X life.
06:24:32 <zzo38> Discordant Crossroads {?} World Enchantment ;; Nonworld permanents enter the battlefield tapped.
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08:55:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: the mana cost for that last one is {3}, it's called Orb of Dreams
08:57:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: Empathic Healer looks interesting
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09:21:33 <bunnyocto> yay. all asm tests finally pass for memcmp and memcpy
09:23:46 <bunnyocto> but writing asm is way too painful.
09:23:50 <bunnyocto> gotta start working on the compiler :)
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09:32:25 <zzo38> Except the type and supertype.
09:34:28 <zzo38> bunnyocto: Assembly language of what computer?
09:34:47 <bunnyocto> or at least introduce some macros for the assembler :)
09:35:03 <bunnyocto> see https://github.com/bunnyocto/bootstrap
09:35:43 <zzo38> Yes, allowing macros in assembler is good
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10:26:00 <bunnyocto> this way you don't have to remember to pop saved registers, .ret will take care of it. Just use .save to save them.
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10:39:02 <bunnyocto> Could not compile assembly file "stdlib_test.S": "Invalid line: \".m\\txcallc\\tstd::test::memcpy\"! Unknown op \".m\"!"!
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10:53:55 <bunnyocto> now I could add .whilenz or something. Hm.
10:54:10 <bunnyocto> the problem is it's gonna produce slow code.
10:54:37 <bunnyocto> because jumps don't take immediate addresses
10:55:07 <bunnyocto> so if you're nesting whiles or ifs then you'll have to juggle registers
10:55:37 <bunnyocto> or constantly reload the address at every jump
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11:12:45 <bunnyocto> technically the assembler can calculate which registers need to be saved and where
11:13:03 <bunnyocto> if the user declares which registers he/she wants to use
11:17:45 <bunnyocto> based on var and args I can determine which registers are in use and which need to be saved before a call
11:19:04 <bunnyocto> also I can determine which need to be saved within the function
11:19:10 <bunnyocto> so no need for .save directives either :)
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12:52:35 <A__> Is there a way to make a TC proof more complicated?
12:53:55 <rain1> you could explain it badly
12:54:00 <rain1> or do needless extra work
12:54:12 <rain1> or do a much more difficult reduction than necessary
12:54:26 <myname> explain everything obvious as detailed as possible and skip the parts that are actually necessary to proof as obvious
12:54:31 <kingoffrance> just take a black sharpie and "classify" random portions
12:55:23 <FireFly> what prompted the question?
12:55:58 <kingoffrance> everything should be made as simple as possible, and no simpler; less is more; i posit that confusion via ambiguity can be accomplished by selective omissions
12:55:59 <A__> FireFly: I need to analyze a long text in order to get a character frequency.
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13:02:18 <A-ee> Did I just see "trimp"?
13:04:24 <A-ee> No I didn't. (I feel that I am always thinking of the trim function.)
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13:28:54 <A__> https://github.com/A-ee/w I only need 1 commit for a final golfing language. (Golfscript seems to have 8)
13:29:16 <A__> Wait... what's happening?
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14:17:46 <rain1> i find tensor products very hard to learn
14:37:03 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68002&oldid=67987 * Yay * (+4)
14:37:05 <arseniiv> rain1: those products of modules you mentioned?
14:38:48 <arseniiv> I don’t know almost anything about modules in general, I read mostly about linear spaces, and of course these are much less complex
14:47:22 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68003&oldid=68002 * Yay * (+396) added section "Advent Of Code"
14:49:55 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68004&oldid=68003 * Yay * (+55) /* Advent of Code */ test
14:53:09 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68005&oldid=68004 * Yay * (+337) /* Advent of Code */
14:53:51 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68006&oldid=68005 * Yay * (+0) /* Advent of Code */ add caps
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15:14:18 <bunnyocto> it won't produce the most efficient code but whatever works
15:16:01 <rain1> arseniiv_: yeah it's an algebra thing im trying to pick up
15:16:18 <rain1> I think linear spaces are the prototypical example
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15:22:38 <arseniiv> rain1: ah, are you considering tensor products of arbitrary algebraic structures?
15:23:18 <arseniiv> hm I think I don’t know if that’s defined somewhere
15:23:42 <rain1> i found a definition i like today
15:23:59 <rain1> https://imgur.com/a/dOoZFKQ
15:24:25 <rain1> it has a defining universal property like usual in category theory
15:26:30 <arseniiv> ah, I think that definition is very close to the one for vector spaces; (i), …, (iii) and quotienting are certainly familiar
16:02:37 <kingoffrance> well i am no mathematician, but to backwards segueway to yesterday, re: roman numerals in papers, lower and upper case, is something i would do for nesting/multiple levels, e.g. Section I subsection i subsubsection A subsubsubsection a subsubsubsubsection 1 i.e. it was useful for me simply as another layer of sections
16:03:24 <kingoffrance> so i would totally use them in that manner for any kind of paper, merely to differentiate layers
16:07:19 <arseniiv> someone knows how hard it is to build some kind of a one-pass automaton equivalent to a bunch of sequential string replacements? Tried to google but yet to find something
16:31:24 <rain1> sequential string replacements, like thue
16:41:30 <bunnyocto> are there non-sequential string replacements
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18:11:47 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah, just without looping back after the last replacement, and each replacement is made as many times as possible during the single pass, so for example ab → b applied to abaabaaab will give babaab
18:12:47 <arseniiv> <bunnyocto> are there non-sequential string replacements => yeah, it’s possible to make certain replacements in parallel, like "abc"[a → b, b → c, c → a] = "bca"
18:14:43 <arseniiv> when the substring to replace are all disjoints, this is natural, and when not, one could handle conflicts in a not too unnatural way too, e. g. picking the longest replaceable substring LTR
18:14:54 <arseniiv> s/the substring/the substrings
18:17:08 <arseniiv> I think my case could be answered by an algorithm to compose two string-replacing DFAs, I think it shouldn’t be hard to reinvent one, given that I use certain prefixes of a yet-to-be-replaced suffix of the string as states of such a DFA; I think that would work
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18:29:51 <bunnyocto> If I'm blind and using OCR to solve captchas
18:30:49 <kmc> we've already evolved into machines in our minds
18:31:22 <bunnyocto> also... wouldn't it be against antidiscrimination laws to exclude robots?
18:31:47 <kmc> robots aren't a protected class, yet
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18:37:25 <arseniiv> <kmc> we've already evolved into machines in our minds => oh, Röyksopp!
18:37:44 <kmc> glad someone got the reference!!
18:37:53 <arseniiv> there are many nice songs in that album
18:37:59 <kmc> it's a personal favorite
18:38:11 <kmc> in fact i think i'll listen to it while i drive home
18:39:22 <kmc> i've heard one of the better ways to crack captchas is to set up a porn site and make people solve a captcha to get in, which is actually a captcha presented from the site you're trying to get into
18:39:54 <kmc> either that or you pay someone in bangladesh $0.001 per captcha
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18:50:57 * bunnyocto worked in research for security for 4 years
18:51:12 <bunnyocto> (security & privacy to be specific)
19:00:11 <arseniiv> :′( hopefully it got better? (uh I don’t even know how to talk properly about such matters, sorry if I’m impolite)
19:10:18 <myname> i also like that there's a browser plugin that just solves recaptcha via the audio challenge
19:11:25 <myname> is it related to your work?
19:18:12 <kmc> security seems like a field that would both attract and encourage paranoia
19:30:28 <esowiki> [[User]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68007 * Hex96 * (+174) Created page with "User is an esolang by [[user:hex96|hex]] which requires an esolangs account. This is basicly chicken but you say your username instead of chicken, the commands are the same."
19:30:53 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68008&oldid=67972 * Hex96 * (+11) /* List of esolangs */
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19:57:17 <bunnyocto> so one thing's bothering me about medeival movies
19:58:17 <bunnyocto> an arrow to the head is portraied as lethal
19:58:42 <bunnyocto> but it just penetrates the tip so maybe an inch or two
19:58:51 <bunnyocto> that'll probably just result in damage to the frontal lobe
19:59:58 <bunnyocto> I think generally the lethality of wounds is drastically exagerrated in movies.
20:00:18 <kingoffrance> i generally think the people tend to look too clean-shaven, nice haircut, etc.
20:13:20 <zzo38> I want to figure out how to make better rules for injury in Scientific Role Playing System (SciRPS)
20:13:59 <zzo38> I never got struck by an arrow, nor ever shot anyone else with an arrow, so I don't know
20:14:54 <bunnyocto> well.. a lobotomy is basically destroying someones frontal lobe... which is sometimes lethal, sometimes the patients left severely disabled, other times it "worked" (for some fucked up definition of worked)
20:15:20 <bunnyocto> so I'd presume that a shot to the head that doesn't penetrate deeply is probably non lethal... maybe infection
20:15:32 <bunnyocto> but you might want to discuss your ideas with a pathologist.
20:15:43 <bunnyocto> they oughta know what is lethal on how soon
20:18:33 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't know a pathologist
20:18:52 <zzo38> I would hope that real scientists and real martial artists will help me to design SciRPS
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21:01:54 <b_jonas> fungot, what do you want for Christmas?
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23:18:43 <fizzie> Grumble, Inkscape's doing a really weird thing: when I have an object that has any clones selected (not sure if the clones are relevant), the UI widgets (other than the drawing canvas) stop responding, or even updating.
23:28:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: it's not a very old version of Inkscape, right?
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23:29:42 <fizzie> Not a terribly old. "Inkscape 0.92.4 (5da689c313, 2019-01-14)"
23:30:37 <fizzie> I managed to make it start working again after a bit, but then I opened the "Fill and Stroke..." sidebar and it started bugging out again.
23:31:52 <fizzie> It also uses 100% of CPU (of one core) as long as the object is selected.
23:32:53 <fizzie> Selecting one of the clones doesn't cause it to bug out, nor does selecting an object that doesn't have clones.
23:33:07 <fizzie> (Thing is, I wanted to copy the color of the object that has clones.)
23:34:50 <fizzie> Hm, well. Using the "pick color from image" thing worked as a workaround. But it's still a bug.
23:36:00 <fizzie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1462051 apparently.
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06:04:33 <zzo38> Is the Ghostscript interpreter API reentrant?
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08:34:48 <int-e> 'Unless Ghostscript has been compiled with the GS_THREADSAFE define, only one instance at a time is supported.' -- So it depends.
08:36:08 <int-e> Actually... https://ghostscript.com/doc/current/API.htm#new_instance suggests that the answer is "no, but we're working on it" for practical purposes,
08:37:43 <zzo38> OK, but is a single instance reentrant? (For example, can the I/O implementations execute PostScript code?) (I am making it so that it doesn't, and if it does need to, the PostScript code that calls it uses "(%stdin) run".)
08:38:24 <int-e> I don't know. I expect not.
08:41:43 <zzo38> I also expect not, which is acceptable even if it is capable.
09:22:35 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68009&oldid=66679 * TwilightSparkle * (+15) /* External resources */
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11:03:08 <shachaf> My uint64_t->uint64_t B-tree map is faster than Rust's BTreeMap<u64, u64> and Google's absl::btree_map<uint64_t, uint64_t>
11:04:04 <Taneb> Does it provide the same or an equivalent API?
11:04:28 <shachaf> It proved sets, gets, deletes, and iterators that can be used for range queries.
11:05:51 <shachaf> For the most part it's a pretty naive implementation, just the first thing I wrote down that worked.
11:05:58 <shachaf> It does linear search through nodes and so on.
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12:25:17 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68010&oldid=68006 * Int-e * (+3) /* Program Structure */ fix&tweak grammar
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13:58:49 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68011&oldid=68009 * A * (+2) /* External resources */ Internal link
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17:09:58 <esowiki> [[Referencement]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68012 * Hakerh400 * (+18328) + [[Referencement]]
17:10:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68013&oldid=67948 * Hakerh400 * (+20) + [[Referencement]]
17:11:15 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68014&oldid=67007 * Hakerh400 * (+20) + [[Referencement]]
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19:28:41 <esowiki> [[Stackish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68015&oldid=50348 * CMinusMinus * (+12) /* External resources */
19:30:09 <esowiki> [[TP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68016&oldid=50344 * CMinusMinus * (+12) /* External resources */
19:33:25 <esowiki> [[Referencement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68017&oldid=68012 * Hakerh400 * (+13)
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20:19:55 <kspalaiologos> If someone's interested in helping me with the chess engine I said here about the other day
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21:04:47 <zzo38> O, it is the variant without bishops.
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22:53:08 <int-e> fizzie: your guess for day 16 is working out
23:11:10 <imode-ruby> I've been thinking a lot about context recently, and why people shy away from things like Forth and my language Mode. I'm trying to understand where the middleground is between positional and random access for data you pass around.
23:12:05 <imode-ruby> focusing on the context of an operation is important. I find myself looking around for context whenever I'm presented with some new code.
23:12:40 <imode-ruby> forth and similar languages have an implicit context: you don't have neat points in time where you can save something that came from somewhere, only to recall it again.
23:13:05 <imode-ruby> you instead have to rely on "juggling": placing elements in an active area and then performing operations on them.
23:13:25 <imode-ruby> forth is like baking a cake with only two hands instead of the support of a countertop.
23:14:16 <imode-ruby> you juggle things around until they're in the right position for one step, then you juggle things around for the next step, and so on. likewise for Mode, but you _really feel it_ because there's no load and store ops.
23:17:16 <imode-ruby> figuring out how to do things like building and using objects is difficult, for example, because of the way the juggling works: in Mode, you need the ID of the process at the head of the queue, and then the thing you want to send to it up next. this results in you enqueueing a value, swapping it, duplicating it, saving it for later, doing the send, then recalling it.
23:18:39 <imode-ruby> but with the right macros... this happens: https://hatebin.com/qhbjgbsysn
23:20:43 <imode-ruby> I have a theory that with the right series of primitives, there will be a point where you stop seeing the queue.
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00:14:39 <arseniiv> <imode-ruby> forth is like baking a cake with only two hands instead of the support of a countertop. ==> ooh a good metaphor. I do sometimes think two hands is not enough
00:50:03 <imode-ruby> yeah, now I have to figure out how to give a user N number of hands. :)
00:53:09 <imode-ruby> or give the _illusion_ that they have an N number of hands...
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01:11:04 <arseniiv> imode-ruby: illusion may be as hard
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01:16:34 <imode-ruby> another problem Mode has is the idea of code duplication. everything's done via inline macros so if you have a chunk of code _you're going to plop a new copy down everywhere you use it_.
01:17:29 <imode-ruby> this is both good and bad... compression takes care of that in some way. still working on a compile and runtime solution to that.
01:20:37 <imode-ruby> it's almost the inverse of the inlining problem. everything you define is inlined by default. not very much of a problem but it does matter when the resulting code size is giant.
01:29:41 <oerjan> . o O ( wouldn't that be the outlining problem )
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03:11:14 <fungot> oerjan: somewhere between 2 and 5 years was a bit confused about the distiction because of code-as-data. see you
03:11:33 <oerjan> thanks, that explains it
03:13:53 <lambdabot> KOAK 190253Z 19007KT 10SM SCT015 BKN022 BKN028 13/11 A3005 RMK AO2 RAB0157E08 SLP176 P0000 60000 T01280111 51019
03:14:10 <shachaf> Should I put parent pointers in my tree nodes?
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03:25:16 <int-e> maybe, but not if you want a persistent data structure
03:26:34 <shachaf> The alternative (which I'm using now) is to have "cursors" into the tree contain a stack rather than just a node pointer.
03:27:54 <int-e> next you'll be inventing zippers
03:30:01 <int-e> fungot: can you solve a megaminx?
03:30:02 <fungot> int-e: and not backspace... can be translated
03:31:41 <shachaf> int-e: Is that like a megamix?
03:32:19 <int-e> It's a Rubik's cube, but dodecahedrical.
03:32:27 <shachaf> Persistent data structures are kind of a scam, I think.
03:32:33 <shachaf> You rarely need them and they're very expensive.
03:47:19 <lambdabot> ENVA 190250Z 09005KT 9999 OVC042 M00/M01 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 21012KT
03:48:52 <HackEso> moo:Moo is the sound made by a cow as it freezes.
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06:11:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Felixcesar15 * New user account
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06:44:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68018&oldid=67943 * Felixcesar15 * (+272) /* Introductions */
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07:32:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68019&oldid=67880 * Felixcesar15 * (+948)
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08:07:47 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68020 * Felixcesar15 * (+1240) Creation of this page - Felixcesar15
08:13:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68021&oldid=68013 * Felixcesar15 * (+16) /* L */
08:15:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68022&oldid=68019 * Felixcesar15 * (-948)
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09:59:08 <FireFly> uh, didn't know that works with a dot
10:10:16 <FireFly> bunnyocto: you're applying them monadically, not as a train
10:10:51 <FireFly> asuming you meant product over length
10:13:15 <FireFly> monadic % is reciprocal, so that' a bit different :p
10:35:55 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68023&oldid=68020 * Felixcesar15 * (+1887)
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10:40:11 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68024&oldid=68023 * Felixcesar15 * (+0) Some mistake fixes
11:06:55 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68025&oldid=68024 * Felixcesar15 * (+62)
11:17:05 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68026&oldid=68025 * Felixcesar15 * (+199) Added examples and some edits
11:18:11 <esowiki> [[User:Felixcesar15]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68027 * Felixcesar15 * (+131) Created page with "Welcome to void of nothingness - ~~~~"
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12:36:00 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68028&oldid=68010 * Yay * (+91) added another day
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14:40:28 <esowiki> [[Referencement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68029&oldid=68017 * Hakerh400 * (-90)
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16:40:26 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68030 * DmilkaSTD * (+233) Created page with "Bigspace is a esolang inspired in Whitespace with stacks, tapes, heaps and turing machines simulations (Turing complete!). Bigspace was made to use only a command and be the..."
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16:57:47 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68031&oldid=68030 * DmilkaSTD * (+619)
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17:59:49 <esowiki> [[Glitch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68032 * IFcoltransG * (+1201) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Glitch''' is a [http://canonical.org/~kragen/bytebeat/ bytebeat] language, used in the [https://naivesound.com/glitch Glitch algorithmic synthesizer], for generati..."
18:00:10 <esowiki> [[Glitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68033&oldid=68032 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Category capitalisation
18:00:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68034&oldid=68021 * IFcoltransG * (+13) /* G */ + Glitch
19:04:29 <b_jonas> fungot, when is the U.S. senate eating the peaches?
19:04:29 <fungot> b_jonas: the syntax is much nicer than oko-in-c amirite) that was written in sicp?
19:05:45 <b_jonas> fungot, is Elon Musk secretly Satoshi?
19:05:45 <fungot> b_jonas: and butt-ugly :d :d :d), i configured my irc client.) in our example
19:06:08 <b_jonas> yes, I configured my irc client too
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19:14:03 <j-bot> bunnyocto: 4 3 2 1
19:14:19 <j-bot> bunnyocto: |syntax error
19:14:19 <j-bot> bunnyocto: | //1 2 3 4
19:14:30 <j-bot> bunnyocto: |syntax error
19:14:30 <j-bot> bunnyocto: | /*1 2 3 4
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19:32:36 <FireFly> (because all verb application is right-to-left)
19:35:10 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘a -> a -> a’
19:37:06 <FireFly> I don't know of a super concise way
19:37:49 <FireFly> b_jonas might have some idea
19:40:07 <bunnyocto> > let (-/) = foldl1 (-) in (-/) [1,2,3,4]
19:40:24 <bunnyocto> who needs J. You can just define weird operators in Haskell.
19:40:39 <kmc> weird scenes inside the gold mine
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19:50:39 <b_jonas> what do you want to solve?
19:52:57 <b_jonas> ``` python3 '-cimport sys, numpy; v = numpy.float_(sys.argv[1].split()); print(v[0]-v[1:].sum())' '1 2 3 4'
19:53:45 <b_jonas> ``` python3 '-cimport sys; v = list(map(float, sys.argv[1].split())); print(v[0]-sum(v[1:]))' '1 2 3 4'
20:01:07 <fizzie> Who needs Haskell when you've got Scheme.
20:01:49 <b_jonas> oh yeah, that's a good one
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20:06:34 <fizzie> -~/|. looks like one of those animated spinners except the backspace isn't working and someone's tried to make it a little more lively than the standard spinny -/|\ thing.
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20:35:51 <esowiki> [[User:Felixcesar15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68035&oldid=68027 * Hex96 * (+4)
20:36:22 <esowiki> [[User:Felixcesar15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68036&oldid=68035 * Hex96 * (+16)
20:36:40 <esowiki> [[User:Felixcesar15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68037&oldid=68036 * Hex96 * (+5)
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21:04:19 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68038&oldid=67779 * JonoCode9374 * (+109) /* External Resources / Reference Implementation */ -> 100 little Keg exercises link
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00:42:47 <fizzie> int-e: Heh, my Go-based Intcode interpreter (was bored) has kind of a funny (but arguably logical) undefined behavior: if you attempt to write to a parameter in immediate mode, you will actually write to the corresponding field of the instruction (and the previous value is ignored).
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02:02:51 <fizzie> Also, huh, I've been assuming that day 9's comment on how the interpreter "should have support for large numbers" meant arbitrary-precision integers, but is that actually the case? The two examples are just 50-ish bit values.
02:03:45 <kingoffrance> 50-ish bits is considered arbitrary-precision some places :)
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02:09:22 <fizzie> I don't think it's necessarily a coincidence that double-precision floats can represent all integers exactly between -2^53 and +2^53.
02:09:39 <fizzie> This might've been just a concession to make life easier for JS people and suchlike.
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02:44:09 <zzo38> fizzie: I think I read VAX does that too. Also it is defined to do that in a "video instruction set" I have invented. However, 6502 doesn't; the instructions that would write to immediates (all unofficial) instead read from (and ignore) the value.
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03:21:27 <tswett[m]> fizzie: What's the potentially-a-coincidence that that isn't?
03:21:32 <tswett[m]> Like... what does that coincide with?
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04:12:32 <int-e> fizzie: Re: Intcode, that seems to be the most reasonable behavior to me, if one were to define it.
04:14:54 <int-e> Oh and I have not really thought about how big the numbers are supposed to be. The specification said "large" which I interpreted as "unbounded" as well, but which is woefully imprecise.
04:15:49 <int-e> (The esowiki page reflects my interpretation... because I wrote that part.)
04:19:22 <int-e> Maybe the page should have a disclaimer that it's not an official specification ;)
04:48:28 <zzo38> In Glulx, writing to any nonzero immediate is illegal.
04:49:21 <zzo38> (If you try to write to an immediate zero operand, then the value is discarded.)
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05:27:15 <zzo38> Perhaps I should add support for separations into TeXnicard, in order to implement such thing as the shiny mark on Magic: the Gathering cards. The next consideration is then how to do the output format with such thing.
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10:21:25 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68039 * DmilkaSTD * (+270) Created page with "(HA)pple waITING is like a [[Turing machine]] but with new features. (So, it's turing complete) New features * Input and Output (I don't like using a tape like output method)..."
10:22:41 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68040&oldid=68039 * DmilkaSTD * (+4)
10:23:36 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68041&oldid=68040 * DmilkaSTD * (+2)
10:25:48 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68042&oldid=68041 * DmilkaSTD * (+95)
10:25:58 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68043&oldid=68042 * DmilkaSTD * (-2)
10:26:36 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68044&oldid=68043 * DmilkaSTD * (-4)
10:27:06 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68045&oldid=68044 * DmilkaSTD * (+15)
10:28:39 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68046&oldid=68045 * DmilkaSTD * (+17)
10:30:53 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68047&oldid=68046 * DmilkaSTD * (+178)
10:31:03 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68048&oldid=68047 * DmilkaSTD * (-3)
10:31:15 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68049&oldid=68048 * DmilkaSTD * (+0)
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10:36:41 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68050&oldid=68049 * DmilkaSTD * (+6)
10:36:59 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68051&oldid=68050 * DmilkaSTD * (+2)
10:39:59 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68052&oldid=68051 * DmilkaSTD * (+177)
10:40:29 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68053&oldid=68052 * DmilkaSTD * (+0)
10:43:03 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68054&oldid=68053 * DmilkaSTD * (+134)
10:43:28 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68055&oldid=68054 * DmilkaSTD * (-41)
10:45:37 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68056&oldid=68055 * DmilkaSTD * (+47)
10:46:03 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68057&oldid=68056 * DmilkaSTD * (+0)
10:46:49 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68058&oldid=68057 * DmilkaSTD * (-12)
10:49:13 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68059&oldid=68058 * DmilkaSTD * (+119)
10:50:44 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68060&oldid=68059 * DmilkaSTD * (+36)
10:55:06 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68061&oldid=68060 * DmilkaSTD * (+135)
10:55:30 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68062&oldid=68061 * DmilkaSTD * (-19)
10:57:23 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68063&oldid=68062 * DmilkaSTD * (+108)
11:05:32 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68064&oldid=68063 * DmilkaSTD * (+441)
11:08:27 <HackEso> 1/1:newline//Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness. \ modal logic//"modal logic" means "the most common logic" (that is, classical logic). \ this sentence//This sentence is just. Taneb invented it. \ tdnh//tdnh does not help \ sgeolang//Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
11:08:30 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68065&oldid=68064 * DmilkaSTD * (+78)
11:08:57 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/nur: line 2: xxd: command not found
11:09:03 <HackEso> 000000 4e 65 77 6c 69 6e 65 73 20 61 72 65 20 6c 65 2f >Newlines are le/< \ 000010 72 6e 27 73 20 5c 20 62 69 67 67 65 73 74 20 77 >rn's \ biggest w< \ 000020 65 61 6b 6e 65 73 73 2e 0a >eakness..< \ 000029
11:10:19 <shachaf> Wait, is Sgeolang still Rust? No way.
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11:13:00 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68066&oldid=68065 * DmilkaSTD * (+2)
11:13:25 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68067&oldid=68066 * DmilkaSTD * (-1)
11:13:38 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68068&oldid=68067 * DmilkaSTD * (-2)
11:26:58 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68069&oldid=68068 * DmilkaSTD * (+971)
11:27:24 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68070&oldid=68069 * DmilkaSTD * (+3)
11:27:53 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68071&oldid=68070 * DmilkaSTD * (+3)
11:28:07 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68072&oldid=68071 * DmilkaSTD * (-3)
11:29:51 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68073&oldid=68072 * DmilkaSTD * (-2)
11:33:29 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68074&oldid=68073 * DmilkaSTD * (+53)
11:33:48 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68075&oldid=68074 * DmilkaSTD * (-11)
11:53:15 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68076&oldid=68075 * DmilkaSTD * (+408)
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12:28:21 <fizzie> tswett[m]: The not-a-coincidence was the fact that the two examples of "large numbers" in Intcode-related AoC problem statements (2^50, and approximately 1.083*2^50) are quite close but still under the limit of representable integers in IEEE 754 binary64 format (2^53), which I speculate is to make it easier to build Intcode implementations on top of languages that only have access to numbers like that.
14:30:08 <int-e> Phew, breadth first search did not explode for part 2 :)
14:31:13 <int-e> (Today, 20th of December. Yesterday was relatively easy, I thought.)
14:32:28 <int-e> Which is borne out by the statistics, I guess... yesterday had twice as many solvers as the day before that.
14:37:06 <wib_jonas> you know how sometimes people use their children as excuse to buy toys or other items for themselves, saying that it's for their children?
14:37:32 <wib_jonas> I think I succeeded to buy a Christmas present for my brother's kids that the parents won't be able to use
14:37:53 <wib_jonas> it's a children size headphone, and it's built in such a way that it's really impossible to use with an adult size head
14:38:15 <wib_jonas> I can't even tell what it sounds like, because I can't put it close to my ears without breaking it
14:38:28 <wib_jonas> I can at least hear sounds coming out of it when I turn up the volume
14:38:45 <wib_jonas> I realize that this may be a feature from the vendor's perspective
14:39:09 <wib_jonas> since if it sounds really cheap, the customers won't be able to tell
14:39:48 <wib_jonas> on the minus side, I bought two, and one of them is broken. I'll have to return that one.
14:40:01 <wib_jonas> on the plus side, the other one is not broken
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14:43:27 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> you know how sometimes people use their children as excuse to buy toys or other items for themselves, saying that it's for their children? => haha I hoped that’s more of a joke when read it somewhere, but on the other hand it seems pretty natural, for better or for worse. I mean, no person uses all their belongings all the time, children included, so there may be valid cases of such er… abuse, if the parent doesn’t mon
14:43:27 <arseniiv> opolize. Though I think that’s too ideal a scenario
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14:44:30 <wib_jonas> I also bought a portable music player, which I'm now testing -- using different earbuds
14:45:24 <wib_jonas> this one has the same bug as my mobile phone
14:45:59 <wib_jonas> it's not willing to sort the tracks in any way, neither by filename nor by track number, so I have to make sure that the directory is sorted, which is difficult because typical file system interfaces don't care about that
14:48:13 <wib_jonas> seriously, people, if you have a processor that can decode mp3s, please put in a fucking routine that can sort filenames
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15:14:19 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> seriously, people, if you have a processor that can decode mp3s, please put in a fucking routine that can sort filenames => unfortunate :( I have almost the same complaint: often there are no shuffle mode, and everything plays in the exact same order each time you switch the thing on. Makes very boring searching for something appropriate for this or that moment
15:16:01 <fizzie> int-e: I agree that 19th was surprisingly easy. Maybe it was just checking that people's Intcode interpreters were functional. I had a look at the program, and while I didn't bother to trace it fully, it uses the relative mode heavily. Although I guess Intcode is so simple, it's hard to make bugs that wouldn't have failed the earlier tests.
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15:48:45 <kspalaiologos> for no reason really, and I suppose unintentionally
16:02:33 <int-e> kspalaiologos: could it just be a reboot?
16:03:10 <int-e> Ah. What about OOM, hmm. Ah, not my problem.
16:03:40 <kspalaiologos> 2019-12-17 08:57:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: Empathic Healer looks interesting
16:07:33 <int-e> There was a netsplit. Maybe the server closed the connection? Does it reconnect?
16:10:32 <kspalaiologos> I wouldn't expect it to be able to recover off a netsplit really
16:10:59 <FireFly> is that the bot with fascinating escaping issues?
16:11:20 <int-e> FireFly: no, this is the logging bot. https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-12-17.html#leb is where it left
16:11:44 <int-e> FireFly: and the github link in the topic is where it logs to
16:11:50 <int-e> (when it's around)
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20:31:14 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: did you burn the source code yet?
20:32:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: could it be that rather than the VPS killing it, the IRC server closed the connection to your bot? it sometimes does that
20:33:21 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
20:34:23 <b_jonas> I suspect it was the server
20:40:15 <zzo38> Tomorrow is Yule (if you are in the northern hemisphere), and then two days later is Hanukkah, and then two more days later is Christmas. Happy Yule/Hanukkah/Christmas
20:40:23 <kmc> zzo38: same to you!
20:40:54 <kmc> zzo38: some friends of mine celebrate the Solstice, or Isaac Newton's birthday on Dec 25
20:41:45 <zzo38> Well, yes it is Isaac Newton's birthday on Dec 25 too (I think Stallman refers to this as "Gravmas")
20:41:57 <kmc> celebrating Newton's birthday as a secular/atheist holiday is somewhat ironic because Newton was an occult Christian and alchemist
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20:42:56 <zzo38> Yes, but it is still his birthday. (It wasn't Jesus's birthday on Dec 25, even though Jesus's birthday is still celebrated on that day.)
20:43:27 <kmc> it's a repurposed pagan holiday
20:44:51 <b_jonas> I'll be celebrating pine holiday with my family. I'm traveling the day after tomorrow.
20:49:43 <kmc> i don't have plans for christmas as such
20:50:17 <kmc> on sunday (the 22nd) I'm celebrating a personal milestone (2 years on HRT!) with my girlfriend and wife
20:50:25 <kmc> there will be chinese food and cake.
20:50:35 <kmc> on the 24th I'm going to gf's friend's birthday party
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20:51:22 <b_jonas> this is my plan for a whole week, so it's longer than christmas
20:55:52 <b_jonas> fungot, what is the ranking of swords in SNES Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past from worst to best?
20:55:52 <fungot> b_jonas: oh right, those would be _that_ surprising as murder suspects: theo is certainly freaky enough as it is
21:15:52 <kingoffrance> coincidentally, i believe you can beat it without getting the greatest armor, because i thought blue was more stylish
21:17:26 <kingoffrance> well blue armor + gold shield anyways, without gold shield i may have chosen otherwise
21:19:39 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: I asked about swords, not armor
21:22:30 <kingoffrance> arms are arms :/ i dont think player has a fashionable choice with swords :/
21:23:15 <kingoffrance> the best you can do is color coordinate around the sword
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21:27:09 <zzo38> I don't know much of that games, how the rules for the attacks work. What I know with GURPS, different swords (and other types of unpowered melee weapons) have differnt amount of damage, type of damage, reach, price, mass, defense, options, etc. Also some require two hands (although if your character has four hands, then maybe you can use two such two-handed weapons)
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04:57:17 <zzo38> What I would want to have is setjmp/longjmp with the possibility to define a cleanup step which is executed if you longjmp past there. This would make a possibility of many kind of libraries better, I think.
04:57:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see Per Vognsen's ideas about that?
04:58:36 <zzo38> No, I did not see that.
04:59:32 <shachaf> I wonder whether I can find it.
05:02:30 <zzo38> Do you remember what some of the ideas are? Is it like what I wrote?
05:02:33 <shachaf> zzo38: I think he mostly discusses it in video form unfortunately.
05:02:37 <shachaf> I think it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2G2wbOQQjU&t=3940
05:05:19 <shachaf> I think the code is also online.
05:08:38 <shachaf> Hmm, more preamble than I remembered.
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07:00:11 <shachaf> I think there's a small example here: https://github.com/pervognsen/bitwise/blob/master/ion/test1/test1.ion#L1241
07:09:29 <zzo38> That isn't quite an explanation of it
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07:11:36 <zzo38> Is there a document?
07:14:12 <shachaf> No, I think there's only a video.
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07:30:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68077&oldid=67507 * OsmineYT * (+91)
07:30:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68078&oldid=68077 * OsmineYT * (+30)
07:34:30 <int-e> fungot: can you count unrooted, unordered trees?
07:34:31 <fungot> int-e: maybe you should
07:34:44 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68079&oldid=67490 * OsmineYT * (+16)
07:36:56 <esowiki> [[Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68080&oldid=67506 * OsmineYT * (+198)
07:38:01 <esowiki> [[Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68081&oldid=68080 * OsmineYT * (+56)
07:38:23 <esowiki> [[Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68082&oldid=68081 * OsmineYT * (+4)
07:38:38 <esowiki> [[Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68083&oldid=68082 * OsmineYT * (+2)
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08:35:49 <int-e> fungot: turns out I actually can count those after all... but it's slightly tricky to get right
08:35:49 <fungot> int-e: i'm not getting it. they're building o(n4) solutions and wondering why the hell is relative addressing of the call sites, the calls are trapped and if they do work......
09:00:34 <esowiki> [[Salary program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68084&oldid=66262 * YamTokTpaFa * (-23) pls be kind to the wiki syntax more
09:10:27 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68085&oldid=67863 * YamTokTpaFa * (+56) /* Pxem */
09:15:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:ASCII art/mandelbrot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68086 * YamTokTpaFa * (+271) Created page with "== So, what is the article supposed to explain? == Thought this article has no contents other than the ascii art. I have no ideas what the original editor wanted to tell us. -..."
09:15:29 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68087&oldid=67512 * A * (+35) /* Project Euler 1 */
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11:55:30 <int-e> Sometimes the wiki makes me sad. https://esolangs.org/wiki/ASCII_art-
11:59:17 <int-e> innov... nah I can't make myself type that.
12:00:17 <shachaf> You know what's innovative? My completely standard B+ tree mapping uint64_t keys to uint64_t values.
12:00:31 <shachaf> It's faster than every ordered data structure I've found.
12:01:39 <shachaf> Where can I find reasonable ones?
12:05:34 <int-e> whatever happened to Judy arrays?
12:07:21 <int-e> I remember a short hype, then nothing. And apparently that's how it played out. But I don't know why.
12:07:49 <int-e> http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=153 was an interesting (though probably outdated) read at least
12:08:44 <shachaf> Oh, Judy isn't ordered, is it?
12:08:55 <olsner> sounds good to optimize for cache line usage, but B+ trees can do that too and Judy arrays seem to be a lot more complicated
12:12:52 <shachaf> I was going to add Judy to my benchmark but the API looks way too complicated.
12:12:59 <int-e> shachaf: my understanding was that it is ordered (it's supposed to be a radix tree with various specializations for nodes of different sizes, and radix trees are ordered; they tend to not store full keys in internal nodes though). maybe I understood wrong.
12:13:32 <shachaf> I saw something about hashing that confused me.
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12:17:37 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68088&oldid=68087 * A * (-13) /* An Incompatible implementation */
12:18:17 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68089&oldid=68088 * A * (+54) /* Project Euler 1 */
12:18:36 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68090&oldid=68089 * A * (+0) /* Project Euler 1 */
12:19:59 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68091&oldid=68090 * A * (+127) /* An example */
12:22:55 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68092&oldid=68091 * A * (+9) /* Quine */
12:32:11 <shachaf> OK, I haven't figured out the range API, but it's already slower on point lookups.
12:35:10 <shachaf> I added range queries and it's really slow at them.
12:46:02 <shachaf> I measured wrong. It's OK on point lookups, though a lot slower than a regular hash table.
12:47:36 <olsner> how big is the data set here?
12:48:58 <shachaf> I'm testing with https://github.com/petersn/btreetests
12:53:32 <olsner> looks like that only goes up to 1 million entries? that would probably fit in L2 (but at least it's not small enough to fit in L1)
12:54:33 <shachaf> I think it was shortened from 10M.
12:56:36 <olsner> maybe Judy starts helping when you no longer fit in cache (it could of course never be faster, but since the point to the extra complexity is doing more work to read fewer cache lines...)
13:00:07 <fizzie> int-e: The Intcode part of these every-odd-day puzzles is getting less and less relevant. I guess it's just a handy way to obfuscate the answer, to offload the actual solution validation from the puzzle site to the user.
13:03:55 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68093&oldid=68028 * Fizzie * (+95) Add day 21.
13:06:58 <shachaf> Good call on the bigger test. I'm doing even better than all competitors on this one.
13:07:16 <shachaf> Of course maybe it's not that realistic.
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13:16:26 <int-e> fizzie: Yeah (though I have not looked at today's task(s))
13:17:19 <int-e> fizzie: I wonder how many people have solved problems by reverse engineering some code rather than interacting with it.
13:17:42 <int-e> (So far interaction has always seemed easier. Though I was tempted for a moment with the breakout task.)
13:19:16 <int-e> In fact I've only solved one task manually so far, namely the compression from day 17, part two.
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13:34:40 <fizzie> I wondered about that too. Even counting today, it's still been easier to solve it the presumably-intended way. Actually, today is a little bit similar to day 17 part 2 (though not that much).
13:35:48 <int-e> vaguely relatedly, I found https://projecteuler.net/problem=689 quite annoying.
13:37:03 <int-e> (I just don't like numerical stuff very much. Though somehow I managed to get it right on the first try.)
13:38:11 <int-e> (First *submitted* try that is. Not the first attempt to get a value.)
13:45:26 <fizzie> Hmm, I was doing Project Euler for a bit, in sequential order, but I think I stopped way before 689.
13:45:55 <fizzie> Yes, looks like I did just the first 100.
13:52:53 <int-e> haha: 1.hs: Prelude.chr: bad argument: <nnnnnn>
13:54:29 <int-e> (the program accidently printed the answer in an error message)
13:56:50 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, you can do that deliberately:
13:57:01 <HackEso> Useless use of a constant ("40*18") in void context at -e line 1.
13:57:06 <b_jonas> yeah, the w switch is essential for that
13:57:22 <b_jonas> it doesn't print the answer? they changed that
13:57:40 <b_jonas> perl 5.24 printed the product in the warning message
13:58:05 <b_jonas> darn, this is lost functionality
13:59:48 <int-e> fizzie: hmm that was surprisingly easy.
14:00:53 <int-e> And that adds two more manually solved tasks.
14:03:11 <int-e> I wonder how big the luck factor is.
14:11:33 <b_jonas> fungot, how big is the luck factor?
14:11:34 <fungot> b_jonas: not sure how to loop? ( i mean fnord' as... well, except for the nice model, eh?), here is a nice way for a long time
14:14:17 <b_jonas> int-e: so intcode is used sort of like UM-32?
14:21:58 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68094&oldid=67538 * B jonas * (+82)
14:22:02 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68095&oldid=68093 * B jonas * (+149)
14:22:38 <esowiki> [[UM-32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68096&oldid=39232 * B jonas * (+159)
14:22:56 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68097&oldid=68095 * B jonas * (+9) see UM-32
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18:12:05 <imode> came upon an interesting idea yesterday: the use of the tail of the queue to act as long-term scratch memory, with the head being used as short-term scratch memory.
18:12:36 <imode> with the aid of the `last` operator, you can recall an item from the tail of the queue to the head. if this were on a tape, this would be a move left.
18:13:16 <imode> if you move left N times, duplicate and carry your item right N times, that's a load from RAM.
18:13:52 <imode> same for storing, you just carry the item left N times, drop whatever's there, then move right N times.
18:14:11 <imode> allocation of scratch space is just a repeated enqueueing of zeroes.
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18:28:13 <imode> I still wonder if `[]01` is enough for turing completeness. part of me thinks it's possible but the end result is non-recognizable. `[]01$` is a candidate. `[]01<>` is boolfuck with dynamically resizable tape.
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22:50:10 <arseniiv> <imode> part of me thinks it's possible but the end result is non-recognizable. => have you tried to find a counter-example, like how logicians search for a model where A and ¬B are both true to show that one can’t prove B from A? In this case B is something TC and A is this reduced language
22:54:29 <arseniiv> hm I don’t know how to make this analogy rigorous but I believe it can be made and was even used by someone at some time — it seems so natural to try…
23:10:33 <imode> arseniiv: oerjan iirc said it could be used like bitwise cyclic tag.
23:11:15 <arseniiv> b_jonas: – − ‒, all different!
23:12:30 <arseniiv> imode: mmhm… (not that I’m sufficiently familiar with cyclic tag systems, but interesting!)
23:14:05 <imode> I guess I'm okay with the possibility of a `[]01$` or a `[]01<>` instruction set.
23:18:10 <imode> I really need to get Mode up to a git repo lmao.
23:29:04 <imode> it's an ugly mix of C and Python though.
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23:40:04 <arseniiv> imode: oh, do you call C from Python or Python from C or both?
23:40:43 <arseniiv> I’m not yet familiar how to do either. I only ever used Lua bindings for Delphi very very long ago
23:41:32 <arseniiv> (maybe for C# to but probably I just downloaded them and left them lay still)
23:41:43 <imode> there's a Python preprocessor that generates an array of function pointers. this array of function pointers gets inserted via an #include into a barebones interpreter.
23:42:32 <imode> 95 lines of Python..
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23:52:33 <b_jonas> some years ago someone said in the channel that the "ff" in the name of the program "ffmpeg" stands for "fast forward"
23:53:00 <b_jonas> apparently ffmpeg doesn't think so, because if you run it without arguments, it prints this line among others:
23:53:08 <b_jonas> "Hyper fast Audio and Video encoder"
23:53:14 <b_jonas> so "ff" stands for "Hyper fast"
23:53:32 <int-e> I always thought it derived from FFT.
23:53:48 <int-e> But I assumed that, never gave it much thought.
00:04:40 <arseniiv> . . . . . sssso ffffast iiiit hhhas aaaan aaaafterimage
00:04:42 <int-e> That's many f-words.
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00:23:21 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, that would make the first F stand for "fast" rather than the second
00:24:10 <b_jonas> int-e: the complication is that zzo38 has some pixel image processing utilities that are also named "ff", but they're named of "Farbfeld", which is an entirely logical name for processing pixel images
00:24:35 <b_jonas> only ffmpeg also mostly processes pixel images and videos made of them, though it also processes audio
00:24:40 <b_jonas> (I'm encoding audio using it right now)
00:26:22 <int-e> wait that's another Fabrice Bellard child?
00:27:57 <int-e> So https://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-February/010315.html is to be taken as gospel.
00:28:45 <int-e> (And that also kind of make sense... skipping forward in a video stream isn't trivial after all.)
00:42:55 <zzo38> Anyways the names of the Farbfeld Utilities programs do not match those of FFmpeg, I think
00:43:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah. it's not too hard, I think ffmpeg only has three executable names: ffmpeg, ffprobe, ffplay
00:44:04 <b_jonas> (plus there's three shadow copies in the old fork that is IIRC called avutils, but those don't start with ff)
00:44:22 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, so the "fast forward" was right
00:44:33 <b_jonas> I wonder why they changed it to the euphemistic "hyper fast" then
01:09:50 <zzo38> The web page for 3rd Party Applications for Icecast lists some media players that can play back Icecast streams, although Firefox also plays back Icecast streams just fine, and piping curl to SoX also works fine for playing back Icecast streams.
01:21:21 <imode> @tell arseniiv https://git.imode.tech/?p=mode;a=summary
01:50:08 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68098&oldid=68092 * A * (-13)
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05:38:02 <oerjan> @tell imode yes []01 is TC, i explained how to compile a version of BCT that halts if it gets a 0 as data at a particular step in the program. (showing that that is as TC as ordinary BCT is left as an exercise hth)
05:39:21 * oerjan may not have remembered to explain that that was what he was explaining.
05:39:38 <imode> yeah, sorry, I did not understand what you meant. :(
05:39:53 <imode> not that familiar with BCT either.
05:45:21 <oerjan> 0 is a command that deletes from the queue. 10 is a command that appends a 0 if the head of the queue is 1, and 11 appends a 1 similarly.
05:46:18 <oerjan> although for this compilation you really want whole productions i.e. "cyclic tag", without bitwise.
05:48:37 <oerjan> so you have a list of bit strings that you cycle through: pop a data bit from the queue, if it was 1 append the current string.
05:51:53 <oerjan> if CT data bits are reencoded as 0 -> 0, 1 -> 10, then you reencode each string in the cycle in the same way and enclose it in brackets
05:53:06 <oerjan> and then you put brackets around the whole list. this gives a different halting condition from ordinary CT, but one that should be as TC.
05:54:11 <imode> I apologize that my head really isn't in the right spot right now (a little intoxicated)
05:55:44 <imode> that's fascinating, though... can I pick your brain about this later?
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07:59:24 <int-e> Hmm. "The password of the month is present." ... maybe next year.
08:01:29 <int-e> (But it only makes sense for December)
08:08:27 <shachaf> Man, why are my trees so fast?
08:08:55 <shachaf> Are there any good libraries for ordered u64->u64 key-value maps I should be comparing to?
08:09:00 <shachaf> I feel like this should be a standard thing.
08:12:14 <int-e> Oh I'm done counting trees for the time being.
08:13:37 <int-e> in other news, https://twitter.com/WitzigWeil/status/1208441458426044422
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09:01:41 <int-e> wait, today's AoC part 2 was hard?!
09:03:09 <int-e> (For once I sucessfully extrapolated what part 2 would be like from part 1 and wrote my code accordingly.)
09:08:46 <olsner> shachaf: out of curiosity, how bad is std::map in comparison?
09:11:19 <shachaf> Here are some old numbers: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/btree/ordered.txt
09:11:40 <shachaf> My implementation improved since then (unless I've just added a regression).
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09:32:11 <kspalaiologos> because I put around four days in it, without prior testing
09:40:35 <int-e> Imagine working in chemistry, having spent days assembling a complex reactor, and switching it on for the first time.
09:44:00 <int-e> (I don't. I've read a few stories.)
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12:39:00 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68099&oldid=67999 * Hex96 * (-18) /* truth-machine */
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14:18:41 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68100&oldid=68098 * A * (-25) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Impossible...
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16:11:47 <fizzie> int-e: Another day with quite the difference between part 1 and part 2.
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18:06:51 <arseniiv_> how do you think, is unit4 eso? And int4?
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19:44:23 <esowiki> [[KTANExec]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68101 * EnilKoder * (+361) initiation
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21:18:49 <esowiki> [[KTANExec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68102&oldid=68101 * EnilKoder * (+1812)
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23:11:50 <int-e> fizzie: The dramatic difference between the AoC parts surprised me. I mean the top 100 goes up to 2h, that's amazing. Though I wonder how much impact the upcoming holidays have.
23:29:25 <int-e> fizzie: Or maybe not the difference so much as the fact that part 2 seems to stump so many people.
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01:33:09 <fizzie> I assume a lot of people just did the straight-forward solution to part 1 (I know I did), which isn't very useful as a starting point for part 2, unlike on many other days.
01:35:26 <zzo38> How to allow commands given to "at" to play sounds in Linux?
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02:34:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Robolta * New user account
02:39:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68103&oldid=68018 * Robolta * (+383)
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02:45:29 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68104 * Robolta * (+165) Created page with "[[Category:About]] \_()_/ [[Category:Created Esolangs]] Map Script - No interpreter, still early in development [[Category:Used Esolangs]] Befunge Brainfuck"
02:46:16 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68105&oldid=68104 * Robolta * (-21)
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02:46:49 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68106&oldid=68105 * Robolta * (+5)
02:47:00 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68107&oldid=68106 * Robolta * (+51)
03:10:15 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68108&oldid=68107 * Robolta * (-12) /* About */
03:10:29 <esowiki> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68109&oldid=68108 * Robolta * (+2) /* Used Esolangs */
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05:30:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68110&oldid=68103 * Betseg * (+94) /* Introductions */
05:30:53 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68111&oldid=68097 * Betseg * (+5)
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05:34:34 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68112&oldid=68111 * Betseg * (+73) /* Advent of Code */
05:35:12 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68113&oldid=68112 * Betseg * (+22) /* Advent of Code */
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08:26:50 <zzo38> If a VCR has a IMIDI input, then when scheduling a recording from the associated port (e.g. Digi-RGB) then the user should be allowed to specify a MIDI sequence to execute when it is time to start recording. (For example, you can use this to control an external tuner.)
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09:18:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bunnyocto * New user account
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09:23:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68114&oldid=68110 * Bunnyocto * (+192) /* Introductions */
09:23:45 <esowiki> [[PINAPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68115 * Bunnyocto * (+223) Created page with "PINAPL is an abbrevation for '''P'''INAPL '''I'''s '''N'''ot '''A''' '''P'''rogramming '''L'''anguage. PINAPL is pronounced like pineapple. It is an attempt at a collaborativ..."
09:30:39 <esowiki> [[Rotary Quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68116 * Bunnyocto * (+453) Created page with "A rotary quine is a quine that is a quine under all rotations. For example if the program 'ABCD' where a quine in some language X then for it to be a rotary quine the programs..."
09:33:35 <myname> that seems like an odd definition
09:34:15 <myname> like, almost no language will do that, but on the other hand it restricts the possible permutations to only rotationary ones
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09:41:36 <esowiki> [[PINAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68117&oldid=68115 * Bunnyocto * (+524) data types
09:44:46 <esowiki> [[PINAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68118&oldid=68117 * Bunnyocto * (+92) /* Integers */
09:45:44 <bunnyocto> well. trivially some languages which output the number 555 for the code 555
09:45:59 <zzo38> "Programs with only one character don't have rotations and are thus never rotary quines." Is that right? I wouldn't think so.
09:46:35 <myname> bunnyocto: which is also a permutation quine, though
09:46:50 <esowiki> [[Rotary Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68119&oldid=68116 * Bunnyocto * (+187)
09:46:50 <myname> the only thing that comes to my mind are languages wrapping around like befunge
09:47:13 <myname> I would be interested in a language that does not wrap around line ends and has a non-trivial rotary quine
09:47:36 <zzo38> "All of its rotations" is vacuous if it doesn't have rotations (or does it count itself as a rotation? it doesn't matter if it does or not), so "all of its rotations are quines" would be true, I think.
09:49:05 <esowiki> [[Rotary Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68120&oldid=68119 * Bunnyocto * (+50)
09:49:23 <bunnyocto> might not be technically correct language but I guess the meaning behind it should be clear.
09:50:33 <bunnyocto> you could obviosuly trivially create languages that have such quines
09:51:26 <myname> because Q is defined to be a quine in HQ9?
09:51:42 <myname> ah, you mean to explicitly disallow other commands
09:52:04 <bunnyocto> yeah but the program Q would be only one character
09:52:17 <bunnyocto> unless that prints the source code twice
09:52:23 <bunnyocto> in which case it wouldn't be a quine
09:52:27 <myname> well, there is one rotation, id
09:52:29 <zzo38> Yes, although HQ9+ also has a + command, so you can have Q+ or +Q
09:53:18 <bunnyocto> Q+ would be a rotary quine in HQ9+
09:54:14 <myname> bunnyocto: if you don't include id as a rotation than you could have a string that will be a quine in all but one rotation
09:54:23 <myname> I fail to see this being intended
09:55:12 <bunnyocto> a rotary quine is a quine under all rotations
09:55:13 <myname> therefore, Q does have a rotation, namely id
09:58:04 <zzo38> I described why it doesn't matter if you include id as a rotation or not. It already says "A rotary quine is a quine that is a quine under all rotations."
09:58:47 <myname> yeah, any predicate over the elements of an empty set is true
09:59:22 <esowiki> [[Rotary Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68121&oldid=68120 * Bunnyocto * (-306) is this more formal?
09:59:27 <myname> every elephant in this room is pink
09:59:57 <esowiki> [[Rotary Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68122&oldid=68121 * Bunnyocto * (+12)
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10:30:17 <esowiki> [[PINAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68123&oldid=68118 * Bunnyocto * (+2503) /* Data types */
10:39:08 <esowiki> [[PINAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68124&oldid=68123 * Bunnyocto * (+78)
10:39:43 <esowiki> [[PINAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68125&oldid=68124 * Bunnyocto * (-3) /* Example */
10:44:23 <esowiki> [[PINAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68126&oldid=68125 * Bunnyocto * (+1) /* Example */
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15:39:30 <fizzie> int-e: Heh, I wonder if today will be a little unfriendly for your pure Intcode approach.
15:42:39 <int-e> ask me tomorrow :)
15:44:20 <Taneb> Hmm, I haven't touched AoC very much since like the 9th but I wonder if mine'll handle it?
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20:46:47 <zzo38> What do they call the letters of alphabets named in Old English?
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20:57:38 <kingoffrance> if what some people claim is true that "letters" were leaf/plant-based, then saxifrage would be my wild and inaccurate speculation
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01:13:42 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68127&oldid=65433 * Gamer * (-14)
01:16:41 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68128&oldid=62057 * Gamer * (+0) fixed typo ("lanugages" has been changed to "languages")
01:17:22 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68129&oldid=68128 * Gamer * (+0) changed "A Pseudonatural language" to "A pseudonatural language"
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04:05:57 <int-e> fizzie: It turned out to be terribly unfriendly... took me 2 hours to resolve the knot-tying exercise.
04:07:50 <int-e> (It really should be faster. But I made many stupid mistakes. It's all way too subtle.)
04:45:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BrainF99 * New user account
04:57:37 <tswett[m]> Hey, anyone want to hire me? I have five years of professional experience as a software developer, and I'm really, really, really good at math. I'm not interested in software development positions. I'm looking for a salary around $60k.
04:59:17 <imode> what position are you looking for exactly.
04:59:59 <tswett[m]> I don't have an exact position in mind.
05:00:11 <int-e> Yeah, "not interested" will be the only thing anybody reads in there.
05:01:08 <int-e> Unfortunately we live in a world where people expect you to know what you want :-/
05:01:17 <imode> if you don't know what you want apply to a FAANG.
05:02:22 <int-e> Well, what if your ethics aren't flexible enough for that?
05:03:17 <imode> I don't think your average systems engineering job requires ethics that can bend over backwards
05:03:38 <imode> I work at Amazon. you'd be surprised how mundane this job actually is from every standpoint. we just help people buy ebooks.
05:04:00 <kmc> i'm giving up on the software industry
05:04:04 <kmc> i think i'm going to become a mushroom farmer
05:04:56 <int-e> A hacker's dream, build something from wood... simple and sturdy.
05:05:15 <int-e> (That's based on a pun that works much better in german.)
05:05:30 <imode> build your own computing ecosystem.
05:06:54 <imode> are you in desperate need of a job.
05:06:54 <tswett[m]> I think I'm going to dogfood an operating system for the original IBM PC.
05:07:34 <imode> what are your skills and where are you located.
05:09:02 <tswett[m]> Well, I have experience in plenty of programming languages: C#, Perl, SQL, and bits of C++, HTML, JavaScript, Rust, and VBA.
05:09:26 <zzo38> If you will make a operating system for the original IBM PC, then maybe you should use x86 assembly language.
05:09:29 <imode> got any examples of things you've built with these tools.
05:09:40 <imode> any past work experience.
05:09:43 <tswett[m]> I have a degree in math and knowledge of bits and pieces here and there. I like Haskell and category theory.
05:10:03 <tswett[m]> Yeah, here's the flight simulator autopilot I wrote in C#. https://github.com/tswett/WarrigalsAutopilot
05:10:18 <tswett[m]> I have several professional software development positions.
05:11:08 <tswett[m]> Diagnosed and fixed issues with a large variety of production software for Priority Health, the health insurance arm of Spectrum Health.
05:11:27 <tswett[m]> Wrote desktop application software for the “eXact” line of color measurement instruments using both C# and C++.
05:12:24 <imode> neat. do you have any idea of the roles/duties you'd like to take on at your next position.
05:13:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Which assembly syntax should I use?
05:16:07 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know. Depend what assembler software you use, I suppose. Make up your own if you do not like that one.
05:17:59 <tswett[m]> imode: Vaguely. I'd like to be an actuary (for one); I'd like to compile and analyze data in order to make calculations related to financial risk.
05:18:26 <imode> so find actuary positions.
05:20:12 <kmc> there are/were a number of banks that use Haskell for modelling financial contracts
05:20:30 <kmc> so perhaps you could get a job which isn't just programming, but utilizes your programming skills
05:21:06 <kmc> int-e: what's the german pun?
05:25:31 <kmc> thinking about work makes me sad
05:25:38 <int-e> kmc: There's "hacken" meaning to chop wood.
05:26:00 <int-e> Arguably not much of a pun.
05:26:09 <kmc> i used to love programming but 10 years of working in the tech industry while struggling with mental health problems killed that :/
05:26:28 <kmc> i flamed out
05:26:34 <shachaf> I'm kittensitting this week. It's so good.
05:26:36 <kmc> my spouse supports me financially
05:26:52 <imode> what happened, if you don't mind me asking?
05:27:03 <int-e> shachaf: cushions are less messy
05:27:08 <shachaf> I quit my job a longish time ago and haven't mustered up the whatever to get another one.
05:27:18 <shachaf> Maybe I'll do that at one point?
05:27:32 <imode> you must have quite a bit of savings or financial cushion.
05:27:53 <tswett[m]> One option is to, instead of getting another job, just retire now and live off of $90 a month.
05:27:54 <kmc> imode: it's a long story and not one i wish to retell at this moment
05:28:08 <kmc> I had savings, not so much anymore
05:28:12 <kmc> like I said, my spouse supports me
05:28:21 <imode> kmc: that was moreso directed at shachaf, sorry.
05:28:26 <imode> the last message, I mean.
05:28:32 <kmc> i have shachaf on /ignore
05:28:45 <kmc> that is also a long story i don't wish to retell
05:29:13 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
05:29:22 <kmc> int-e: I get the pun now, thanks
05:29:42 <kmc> it works in english, once you know what it's supposed to be
05:30:02 <imode> I've been poor for a very long time now. this job is a miracle despite being not creatively fulfilling. but holy shit is it almost a cake walk.
05:30:09 <HackEso> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins. He's a title under the cruxite in the lathe.
05:30:18 <HackEso> imode is an Innovative Multicomponent Drug Designer, afflicted by a severe case of the UPPERs.
05:30:32 <imode> at least I'm innovative.
05:30:57 <int-e> IMDD -> imode is a bit of a stretch?
05:31:29 <imode> you know, that's true int-e. wonder who made that entry.
05:38:02 <int-e> imode: Ah https://www.project-imode.eu/ is to blame.
05:41:49 <int-e> see also https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-08-03.html#ly ff.
05:42:53 <imode> damn that was a long time ago.
05:43:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68130&oldid=68114 * BrainF99 * (+309)
05:43:30 <kmc> imode: i can't complain though. aside from lacking a sense of purpose, my life is fucking awesome :) I've finally dealt with the major root cause of those mental problems, and I have awesome friends and partners, and new exciting interests :) I've gone mushroom foraging every day since the 8th, which is awesome
05:45:01 <imode> good to hear you're doing well.
05:46:10 <kmc> life's a fucking trip, eh?
05:47:09 <imode> I've had a similar stint in the industry and there have been times (including recently) where I've just wanted to give it all up.
05:47:21 <imode> was homeless at one point.
05:47:34 <kmc> for how long?
05:49:45 <imode> at one point I thought of becoming a writer. or working in retail. I got into programming sort of by accident and never started anything as a career. it's hard when working takes your hobbies and turns them against you.
05:50:25 <kmc> don't do something you love, or you'll come to hate it
05:50:27 <kmc> that's how i feel
05:50:39 <kmc> but it probably depends
05:51:22 <imode> I wanted to stop as early as August of this year, when I left my last position. I was essentially told that I was less than dog shit despite designing the core of the entire business from the ground up.
05:51:50 <imode> drifted for a month. wanted to quit. came close to ending it. then I got a call from an Amazon recruiter.
05:52:05 <kmc> "don't take something you love and try to pursue it within a bullshit corporation where most of your success/failure is not even dependent on how well you can do that something you love"
05:52:20 <kmc> it's probably better if you, like, love carpentry and manage to make a little money selling tables you made in your garage, or something
05:52:29 <imode> I used to think that too.
05:53:12 <imode> but I think I favor rigidity in a lot of ways. nothing says you have to be passionate about your work life. larger corporations (usually) give you the opportunity for work/life balance. I use my spare time to work on what I want.
05:53:13 <kmc> most jobs I worked ended due to mental health problems (whether me quitting or them firing me)
05:53:43 <kmc> sometimes i just got depressed and stopped going in to work
05:54:02 <imode> reward detachment is a real thing.
05:54:02 <esowiki> [[User:BrainF99]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68131 * BrainF99 * (+223) Created page with "== BrainF99 == Hi Everyone! I'm a "simple" programmer. The languages I know contain Python, [[Brainfuck]], [[Unary]], and to some extent BASIC. I '''''Feel''''' like I am the..."
05:54:27 <imode> you aren't hunting food and then feeling a full stomach. you're sitting at a desk or in a meeting to earn tokens to exhange for goods which may or may not be food.
05:54:40 <imode> that's three levels of indirection just to get to a reward.
05:56:07 <kmc> alienation of labor
05:56:42 <kmc> it does enable us to have some nice things, though
05:56:55 <kmc> perhaps it requires a mindset that is unnatural and somewhat hard to come by
05:57:35 <imode> labor is an application of energy. energy is a finite resource with multiple sources and sinks. depending on the job, the distribution of energy into different labors may not be ideal to your working lifestyle. in which case, time to find a new company.
05:57:43 <imode> I used to work 12 hour days, 6 day weeks.
05:57:58 <imode> that's unnatural and unsustainable.
05:59:21 <imode> imo it's useful to not think of as money as a reward, but as a requirement for life. once you've met the requirement, _then_ you can use your remaining energy to do whateeeeever you want.
05:59:41 <imode> people chase cash and then burn out because the cash wasn't a reward enough to them.
05:59:54 <imode> don't know if that was part of your cse.
06:00:55 <kmc> no not really
06:00:59 <kmc> i've never been that motivated by money
06:01:08 <int-e> imode: "necessary evil" comes to mind
06:01:09 <kmc> when I was working I always made more than enough to be comfortable
06:01:27 <imode> we talking east or west coast tech salaries.
06:01:44 <kmc> um, some of each? and also startups that didn't pay that much salary, but still plenty
06:02:08 <imode> I ask because I used to frame "more than enough" around $60k.
06:02:20 <imode> then I was introduced to the concept of $150k+.
06:02:28 <kmc> there was one job where I got way too into it and worked too many hours, but that's because i cared about the thing not because of money or being obliged to
06:02:54 <kmc> $150k of which half immediately goes to your landlord ;P
06:03:07 <imode> where you renting. o_O
06:03:12 <kmc> (not quite that bad, but not too far off)
06:03:55 <kmc> you said west coast tech industry. housing in the san francisco area is insanely expensive
06:04:07 <kmc> you need a household income of $350k to buy a median house
06:04:17 <kmc> Seattle's pretty expensive too
06:04:23 <kmc> but at least they are building housing at an adequate rate
06:04:49 <imode> I live much further up north, you'd be surprised at 1. how affordable things are and 2. how good the public transit is.
06:05:24 <imode> currently we pay around $2k for rent + utils.
06:05:33 <imode> and it's a 4 bedroom house.
06:07:30 <imode> the lack of state taxes is also nice. really wouldn't live in seattle though.
06:28:05 <kmc> yeah that's crazy cheap
06:28:17 <kmc> we pay $3k for rent + utils, for a tiny 1BR
06:28:28 <kmc> it's in a nice, though not central location
06:28:34 <kmc> within san francisco
06:29:22 <kmc> it's a special place. there are reasons why people are willing to pay so much to live here
06:32:08 <imode> I'll take your word for that.
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07:44:41 <zzo38> What sample rate is needed to input or output video using a sound card?
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08:10:57 <zzo38> They say love of money is the root of all evil.
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08:40:59 <bunnyocto> halp. I'm continuing an old haskel project and the last change I made was adding a "lift $"
08:42:09 <bunnyocto> something had to be broken and I had to try to fix it with a lift
08:43:18 <bunnyocto> also I added an unsafeInterleaveIO
08:50:09 <bunnyocto> hm. it seems to not to only build fine it actually seems to work without the lift.
08:50:39 <bunnyocto> so. 1J2q.+C~ produces an infinite fibonacci sequence
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09:13:48 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (rf)!
09:15:31 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (rm) Invalid arguments!
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09:29:08 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (?+ 5 3) end lisp
09:29:54 <myname> wait, blsq has a lisp interpreter built-in?
09:30:09 <myname> or is it just the bot?
09:30:23 <bunnyocto> you know. the author of blsq is mad.
09:32:16 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (rz (?* (?+ 5 3) 3) end lisp
09:32:16 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 16):
09:32:16 <blsqbot> | expecting space, white space or ")"
09:32:26 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (rz (?* (?+ 5 3) 3)) end lisp
09:32:27 <blsqbot> | {0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24}
09:33:21 <myname> that is a weird error message
09:33:29 <bunnyocto> !blsq %squ={J?*} begin lisp (squ 3) end lisp
09:33:57 <bunnyocto> myname: burlesques parsing rules are veeery complicated
09:34:43 <myname> it looks like it loops or something
09:34:53 <myname> or it is parsing from right to left
09:34:57 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (?+ 1 1) (?+ 1 1) end lisp
09:36:02 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv squ {J?*}) (squ 3) end lisp
09:36:03 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 16):
09:36:03 <blsqbot> | expecting space, white space or ")"
09:36:27 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv "squ" {J?*}) (squ 3) end lisp
09:36:28 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (squ)!
09:36:36 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv "squ" {J?*}) (squ 3) (DB) end lisp
09:36:37 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 16):
09:36:37 <blsqbot> | expecting space, white space or ")"
09:36:50 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv "squ" {J?*}) end lisp DB
09:36:50 <blsqbot> | <"____FILE","/dev/irc"><{J ?*},"squ">
09:37:33 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv {J?*} "squ") (squ 3) (DB) end lisp
09:37:33 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 16):
09:37:33 <blsqbot> | expecting space, white space or ")"
09:37:41 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv {J?*} "squ") (squ 3) end lisp
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09:40:21 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv {(J) (?*)} "squ") (squ 3) end lisp
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09:40:49 <bunnyocto> myname: it supports S-expression but not really lisp
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09:51:14 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 5):
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09:52:12 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 5):
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10:21:11 <bunnyocto> ror(1101) should be 1110, and rol(1101) should be (1011)
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10:35:39 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (dg) Invalid arguments!
10:35:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (ug) Invalid arguments!
10:35:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (+]) Invalid arguments!
10:36:01 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (+]) Invalid arguments!
10:36:01 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (l_) Invalid arguments!
10:38:58 <blsqbot> | 19323349832288915105454068722019581055401465761603328550184537628902466746415537000017939429786029354390082329294586119505153509101332940884098040478728639542560550133727399482778062322407372338121043399668242276591791504658985882995272436541441
10:39:06 <blsqbot> | 19323349832288915105454068722019581055401465761603328550184537628902466746415537000017939429786029354390082329294586119505153509101332940884098040478728639542560550133727399482778062322407372338121043399668242276591791504658985882995272436541441
10:45:17 <blsqbot> | {"a" "aa" "aaa" "aaaa" "aaaaa"}
10:46:53 <blsqbot> | {1 ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments! 2 ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments! 3 ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments! 4 ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments! 5}
10:47:29 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
10:48:01 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (r[) Invalid arguments! {++} "a1" ERROR: Burlesque: (r[) Invalid arguments! {++} "a2" ERROR: Burlesque: (r[) Invalid arguments! {++} "a3" ERROR: Burlesque: (r[) Invalid arguments! {++} "a4" ERROR: Burlesque: (r[) Invalid arguments! {++}
10:51:10 <HackEso> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
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11:22:22 <esowiki> [[Pattern]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68132 * A * (+645) Created page with "[[Pattern]] is an esolang that is inspired by English grammar word describers. == Describers == <pre> x after y indicates that the following syntax must be fullfilled: The act..."
11:25:11 <esowiki> [[Pattern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68133&oldid=68132 * A * (+302)
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12:18:26 <A-ee> !blsq "Hello World"
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12:20:09 <A-ee> (How do I add my own bot onto IRC?)
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12:33:57 <myname> by writing a program that listens to irc messages and letting it run?
13:50:50 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68134&oldid=67795 * Quadril-Is * (+31) /* Some random stuff */
13:51:15 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68135&oldid=68134 * Quadril-Is * (-31) /* Some random stuff */
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14:51:21 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68136&oldid=58031 * Galaxtone * (+58) A bit of detail
14:55:41 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68137&oldid=68136 * Galaxtone * (+48) /* Instructions */ Providing "substitute" for a instruction.
15:06:28 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68138&oldid=68137 * Galaxtone * (+154) /* Instructions */ Explicit definition of to confirm turing completeness solution described in talk page.
15:11:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68139&oldid=55311 * Galaxtone * (-3757) /* Removed Submissions */ Moved submission to front page.
15:13:52 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68140&oldid=68138 * Galaxtone * (+3809) /* Prove Turing-Completeness */
15:14:28 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68141&oldid=68140 * Galaxtone * (-885) /* Prove Turing-Completeness */
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19:01:19 <esowiki> [[User:BrainF99]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68142&oldid=68131 * Hex96 * (+11) /* BrainF99 */
19:07:43 <esowiki> [[Your]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68143 * Hex96 * (+303) Created page with "Your is a Turing complete esolang by [[User:Hex96|Hex]]. It contains 2 commands. #Your: depending on the number of yours, it does a different task. #Youre: SCREAMS AT YOU,..."
19:08:20 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68144&oldid=68008 * Hex96 * (+11) /* List of esolangs */
19:08:56 <esowiki> [[Your]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68145&oldid=68143 * Hex96 * (+38) /* Examples */
19:10:10 <esowiki> [[Your]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68146&oldid=68145 * Hex96 * (+70) /* R cat */
19:11:10 <esowiki> [[Your]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68147&oldid=68146 * Hex96 * (+54) /* Examples */
19:11:56 <esowiki> [[Your]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68148&oldid=68147 * Hex96 * (+44) /* R cat */
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19:55:14 <esowiki> [[User:BrainF99]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68149&oldid=68142 * Palaiologos * (+149)
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23:02:11 <HackEso> mspalist? No such file or directory
23:02:16 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
23:02:20 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'bin': No such file or directory
23:02:37 <Sgeo__> Blah what's the Homestuck list?
23:02:56 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ f \ factor \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ karma.orig \ karma.rej \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ stuff \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
23:03:04 <HackEso> \ \ \ ! \ " \ # \ ' \ ( \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ^.^ \ ` \ `^ \ `` \ ¿ \ ؟ \ ⁗ \ `̀ \ welcome \ ,1 \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ ,2 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ acronym \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ addwhatis \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ as86 \ as-encoding \ asm \ asmbf \ asmbfx \ autowelcome \ bardsworthli
23:03:12 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '../bin/*list': No such file or directory
23:06:36 <HackEso> FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
23:07:26 <HackEso> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
23:07:57 <oerjan> then again, it was one of the first, so people could still remember them all
23:08:13 <HackEso> slist 12/24: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:08:38 <HackEso> keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast
23:09:11 <Sgeo__> slist also used to be useful a lot more often
23:09:17 <Sgeo__> Which probably helped.
23:09:27 <Sgeo__> We'll probably have this conversation again in about a month
23:12:22 <oerjan> <myname> that is a weird error message <-- iirc burlesque is parsed with the haskell parsec library, which gives such errors.
23:13:48 <oerjan> although i think it may not be written in the recommended style, or the errors would be more sensible.
23:16:34 <oerjan> it parses left to right, but if you use backtracking in the wrong way it can give an error on a too early token because it forgets what really caused it to give up
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02:16:15 <int-e> fungot: can you obfuscate boolean circuits?
02:16:15 <fungot> int-e: python lets you assign things to variables.
02:17:42 <int-e> that's... almost relevant
02:20:17 <fizzie> fungot: Can you simulate B12/S1V?
02:20:17 <fungot> fizzie: it was before i went to the party. the party. so you reported what he said... never mind. it needs an fnord.
02:23:20 <int-e> Is that an AoC question?
02:24:11 <int-e> I may have seen that notation before.
02:24:38 <int-e> Maybe minus the letters, just 3/23 for GoL?
02:26:31 <int-e> fizzie: I made the mistake of including diagonal neighbours... twice.
02:26:51 <fizzie> I think I had seen B23/S3 for GoL.
02:27:18 <fizzie> The V suffix I hadn't seen anywhere, picked it up from https://conwaylife.com/wiki/Rulestring for my notes though.
02:27:26 <int-e> (Because I had to rewrite everything for part 2. The one bit I copied over turned out to be flawed :) )
02:28:40 <int-e> Because for part 1, I included the cell itself in the "neighbour" count. So the formula for the final cell didn't work anymore in part 2...
02:29:06 <fizzie> I think I managed to make about every single trivial mistake I could possibly have made when writing up part 1.
02:29:20 <fizzie> Maybe because I had just woken up.
02:29:46 <int-e> "This is easy... I'll just breeze through... why doesn't this work?"
02:29:50 <fizzie> Shifting to the wrong direction (in at least three separate occasions), using `i` where `1 << i` was intended, using the wrong variables.
02:29:58 <fizzie> Yes, that's almost exactly what I was thinking.
02:30:12 <fizzie> "I'll just fix this and then we can have breakfast, won't take long."
02:30:19 <int-e> Oh I got the final count correct at least :)
02:30:50 <int-e> But it was less frustrating then the day before (did you see my privmsg?)
02:31:24 <fizzie> Oh, right, I forgot to have a look at that. But yeah, kind of thought it might be.
02:31:58 <int-e> (Which, btw, is all my fault for sticking to an inconvenient interpreter design. Purity is not really the problem, I could have an interpreter that returns continuations for input and output actions.)
02:33:03 <fizzie> Only one more. Although over on Go side, I've only done 1-6, 11, 18, 19, 22. Kind of want to do the complete set for some reason.
02:33:21 <int-e> Rather than having a [Reply] -> [Request] type, it would be data M = M Request (Reply -> M)
02:33:47 <int-e> And I could collect requests, compute the replies, and feed them to the continuation at my leisure.
02:34:18 <int-e> And I should've done that for the labyrinth task.
02:36:37 <fizzie> I think several of them have had labyrinths. The one with the keys, and the one with the donuts.
02:38:03 <int-e> It's the one you missed, the oxygen one.
02:38:29 <int-e> The one where you actually had to do some exploration of the labyrinth.
02:39:37 <int-e> Oh https://conwaylife.com/wiki/Rulestring actually mentioned the variant without letters, but it has survival first: 23/3 for GoL.
02:40:58 <int-e> "has fallen into disuse in recent years"
02:41:04 <fizzie> Oh, right, the one I did super-slow.
02:41:47 <fizzie> AIUI, the Bx/Sy variant is what Golly uses.
02:42:15 <int-e> (TBF, the "in recent years" was written in 2017, so maybe it's still okay)
02:43:22 <int-e> fizzie: I was briefly tempted to stop after day 21 actually, to keep the 42 stars :)
02:45:14 <int-e> Day 22 is shaping up to have the most difficult part 2 (relative to part 1)...
02:46:07 <int-e> I guess programmers don't need to know linear algebra.
02:46:11 <fizzie> By a wide margin, if the stats table is a good metric of that.
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02:47:32 <int-e> But day 16 is holding up pretty well too.
02:48:01 <fizzie> It might just be because part 1 is so eminently solvable without any cleverness, just by following the instructions. In fact, my part 1 solution actually did the motions on the whole deck, instead of just the card it asks about.
02:48:46 <fizzie> For 16 I think it's kind of a what do you call them, a trick question.
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02:50:22 <int-e> It's too bad that the absolute numbers are pretty much meaningless.
02:50:42 <int-e> (though we can see a nice decay from day 1 to now)
02:51:08 <int-e> And, oh, the graph display is flawed.
02:51:19 <int-e> It should carry the remainder from the gold stars into the silver stars.
02:51:48 <int-e> (The bar on day 22 shouldn't be shorter than the ones above and below.)
02:53:24 <fizzie> Some of the top 100 scores are pretty impressive. For 3590, you'd have to average... about 75 points/star.
02:55:42 <int-e> I agree, being consistently fast on these tasks is impressive.
02:56:12 <fizzie> I have a few friends working at one of the sponsors (Reaktor -- kind of a given, they're pretty big employer of software engineers in Finland), though haven't seen them on the lists.
02:58:08 <int-e> Of course you have to approach this differently if you aim for the lists. Have a template ready (odd days: Intcode interpreter, parser, maybe even an invocation of the interpreter), and a command to fetch the input at the right time. May easily shave of 2-3 minutes from the solving time, which seems to be crucial.
03:04:07 <oerjan> today in schlock mercenary: unlearning thermodynamics
03:05:28 <int-e> oerjan: Damn. I didn't even read that part.
03:06:04 <int-e> TBF it's a fiction-inside-fiction thing.
03:06:19 <int-e> Yeah my lack of attention is deplorable.
03:06:54 <int-e> I kind of dozed off at "using" and switched to, what's her name again...
03:07:13 <int-e> (Well, small detached fragment off her.)
03:07:25 <int-e> (Now imagine saying that about a human.)
03:07:53 <int-e> s/off/of/ (My spelling grows worse, tooo (sic!).)
03:10:02 <oerjan> still waiting for the fragments to multiply. all we know about those two imply they _should_ be able to do that. assuming the fabber can handle all the fragsuit parts.
03:12:59 <oerjan> although the pa'anuri are going to be suspicious if they keep nuking the evidence after every raw materical collection
03:15:40 <oerjan> of course if they're any smart they're already suspicious after the first one.
03:16:35 <int-e> I'd be disappointed if they weren't smart.
03:16:47 <int-e> Though not necessarily Pete levels of smart.
03:17:30 <oerjan> blame darths & droids hth
03:17:59 <int-e> (Not all of them. "Ennesby" is easy.)
03:18:17 <oerjan> we're stilling waiting to find out what devious plan the people at the university have uncovered
03:18:24 <int-e> (Because it has a story attached to it.)
03:19:06 <oerjan> this spelling thing is clearly not following normal causality tdnh
03:19:13 <int-e> Well, I just checked... we had not seen Schlock for (just shy) over 4 weeks.
03:20:02 <int-e> There are way too many story threads. Except, somehow, each of them is entertaining in and of itself (to me).
03:20:25 <oerjan> there's some heavy splitting of the party going on
03:20:43 <int-e> Oh right. Poor DM.
03:23:06 <oerjan> now with lota out of commission they can't use their original plan for getting the rest of the teams into that pa'anuri warship
03:24:00 <oerjan> then again maybe petey built a copy. he did say he would.
03:24:11 <int-e> oerjan: Did you notice that LOTA was addressed with puny pronouns and did not object?
03:24:28 <int-e> ( https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2019-12-18 )
03:25:28 <oerjan> ironic because putzho is the one who actually shows he cares
06:18:07 <imode> merry christmas, happy holidays.
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07:07:38 <zzo38> {?} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent ;; Whenever any object with counters moves to another zone, add those counters to enchanted permanent.
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07:30:53 <int-e> That's AoC done. No programming today. Maybe some luck.
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08:01:42 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68150&oldid=68113 * JonoCode9374 * (+127)
08:04:34 <int-e> Well *someone* sounds relieved...
08:32:24 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68151&oldid=43941 * YamTokTpaFa * (+49) /* External resources */ Y U No Categorize!?
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12:40:09 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68152&oldid=67580 * A * (-14431) Replaced content with "~~~~"
12:46:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68153&oldid=68152 * A * (+137)
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12:53:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Your]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68154 * A * (+228) Confused...
12:53:35 <esowiki> [[Pattern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68155&oldid=68133 * A * (+22)
12:58:49 <esowiki> [[Rebmu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68156&oldid=66347 * A * (-1) Move to the morely-used Golfing language category
12:59:23 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68157&oldid=68100 * A * (+53) Make the page visible
13:04:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:User]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68158 * A * (+257) Created page with "If User require an account, how does it know what esolangs.org user is executing the ''executable'' program? ~~~~"
13:06:22 <esowiki> [[Rebmu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68159&oldid=68156 * A * (+80)
13:09:31 <esowiki> [[B sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68160&oldid=67535 * A * (+24) You gotta categorize, even if this is a stub.
13:11:32 <esowiki> [[Phone call]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68161&oldid=60441 * A * (+22)
13:11:57 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68162&oldid=67976 * A * (+23)
13:12:27 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68163&oldid=67981 * A * (+23)
13:13:40 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68164&oldid=56854 * A * (+23)
13:19:13 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68165&oldid=68150 * Fizzie * (+1) copyedit
13:19:56 <fizzie> int-e: I did a mixture of programming and not-programming, in the sense that I explored manually, but then had a computer try all subsets of items.
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13:21:11 <A-ee> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Dd&direction=next&oldid=67881 That means fungot's 'or' language can also be extended to a 500-word requirement.
13:21:11 <fungot> A-ee: it's the builtin language on my calculator once. got distracted by other projects?
13:22:42 <A-ee> Link to the language: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Or
13:28:58 <kspalaiologos> can we merge ALL the trivial brainfuck derivatives into one site with multiple pages?
13:29:15 <kspalaiologos> it would greatly increase quality of the wiki overall
13:29:48 <A-ee> Idea: make a separate wiki for brainfuck derivatives.
13:31:42 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68166&oldid=66752 * A * (+3830)
13:32:08 <kspalaiologos> because expecting to find a cool language I can work a bit on
13:32:14 <kspalaiologos> most times I see another useless brainfuck derivative.
13:33:46 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68167&oldid=68166 * A * (+148) /* Implementations */
13:34:57 <esowiki> [[Solo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68168&oldid=56399 * A * (+31)
13:35:32 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68169&oldid=61486 * A * (+36)
13:36:12 <esowiki> [[OOOOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68170&oldid=56452 * A * (+30)
13:36:43 <esowiki> [[Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68171&oldid=65497 * A * (+26)
13:37:26 <esowiki> [[Code pointer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68172&oldid=56525 * A * (+36)
13:41:47 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68173&oldid=61563 * A * (+40)
13:42:03 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68174&oldid=57261 * A * (+41)
13:42:25 <esowiki> [[Braine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68175&oldid=56591 * A * (+34)
13:42:37 <esowiki> [[Stop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68176&oldid=56851 * A * (+32)
13:44:24 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68177&oldid=61564 * A * (+704)
13:44:55 <esowiki> [[StubScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68178&oldid=56737 * A * (+23)
13:45:30 <esowiki> [[Parenthesisfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68179&oldid=56703 * A * (+43)
13:48:53 <esowiki> [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68180&oldid=66441 * A * (+23)
13:49:06 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68181&oldid=58142 * A * (+23)
13:49:16 <esowiki> [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68182&oldid=56959 * A * (+23)
13:51:00 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68183&oldid=56951 * A * (+34)
13:51:12 <esowiki> [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68184&oldid=56934 * A * (+23)
13:52:16 <esowiki> [[IPVL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68185&oldid=57449 * A * (+23)
13:52:39 <esowiki> [[SequenceScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68186&oldid=56990 * A * (+42)
13:55:01 <esowiki> [[Functoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68187&oldid=57217 * A * (+31)
13:55:27 <A-ee> I'm #16 in the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:MostLinkedPages!
13:56:03 <A-ee> Whoops https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:MostLinkedPages
13:56:21 <int-e> fizzie: If the solution is unique then I got lucky in my manual up&down endeavour.
13:57:04 <esowiki> [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68188&oldid=57486 * A * (+23)
13:57:34 <int-e> fizzie: The only programming I did was to add abbreviations (n = north and so forth)
13:57:39 <esowiki> [[OFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68189&oldid=57286 * A * (+23)
13:57:56 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68190&oldid=57275 * A * (+23)
13:58:44 <esowiki> [[Marker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68191&oldid=57986 * A * (+23)
13:59:04 <fizzie> int-e: The solution does seem to be unique, at least for me.
13:59:48 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68192&oldid=59653 * A * (+23)
14:00:10 <esowiki> [[TCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68193&oldid=58078 * A * (+31)
14:00:36 <fizzie> Then again, there's only 256 possibilities, and with the hot/cold hints, you probably don't need to be *that* lucky to hit it manually.
14:01:00 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68194&oldid=59654 * A * (+41)
14:01:27 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68195&oldid=59655 * A * (+41)
14:01:43 <int-e> I found the non-pickable items cute btw
14:02:17 <fizzie> I drew a map using Google Keep's drawing feature, and then it turns out the "download" option produces incredibly poor-quality low-resolution PNG exports of whatever the internal vector drawing format is.
14:02:25 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68196&oldid=59442 * A * (+40)
14:02:31 <fizzie> (Really need to find a better drawing program for my ChromeOS thing-with-a-pen.)
14:02:45 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68197&oldid=59656 * A * (+43)
14:03:03 <int-e> There's an evil e,n,w,s non-loop in mine (and I'm assuming the map doesn't change).
14:03:50 <esowiki> [[Golfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68198&oldid=61560 * A * (+23)
14:03:58 <fizzie> It seemed stable for me, but yeah, it's not physically feasible if all the steps have the same length.
14:04:09 <fizzie> Fortunately the drawing is at least editable while still in Keep. ;)
14:04:16 <int-e> stable, yes, indeed.
14:05:06 <esowiki> [[Assembly language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68199&oldid=60067 * A * (+23)
14:05:19 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/kqFQJlypd0Aoxhld.png if you want to check whether the map's the same for everyone, and only the password differs.
14:06:05 <esowiki> [[Multiply]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68200&oldid=60246 * A * (+10)
14:07:00 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68201&oldid=65440 * A * (+23)
14:08:26 <esowiki> [[String rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68202&oldid=60523 * A * (+23)
14:08:38 <fizzie> (Well, maybe the password and the item set.)
14:08:42 <esowiki> [[Define]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68203&oldid=60572 * A * (+23)
14:11:51 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68204&oldid=65632 * A * (+23)
14:12:06 <esowiki> [[Top-based turning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68205&oldid=60764 * A * (+23)
14:12:22 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68206&oldid=60968 * A * (+23)
14:12:27 <int-e> heh, that's completely different
14:14:11 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68207&oldid=61569 * A * (+31)
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14:15:23 <esowiki> [[JCLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68208&oldid=61479 * A * (+23)
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14:19:36 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68209&oldid=64371 * A * (+23)
14:22:21 <esowiki> [[Ephemeral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68210&oldid=62238 * A * (+23)
14:22:59 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68211&oldid=62287 * A * (+23)
14:23:43 <int-e> fizzie: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/map.txt is mine
14:23:47 <esowiki> [[Cut]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68212&oldid=62276 * A * (+23)
14:25:25 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68213&oldid=62666 * A * (+23)
14:26:45 <int-e> Fun, there's a list of powers of 2 up to 2^50 in the code :)
14:28:44 <esowiki> [[Steps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68214&oldid=62771 * A * (+23)
14:29:06 <esowiki> [[Got a match?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68215&oldid=65348 * A * (+23)
14:29:31 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68216&oldid=63110 * A * (+23)
14:29:47 <esowiki> [[InterNet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68217&oldid=62983 * A * (+23)
14:30:59 <esowiki> [[Collide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68218&oldid=63088 * A * (+23)
14:32:01 <esowiki> [[Union]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68219&oldid=64580 * A * (+23)
14:32:38 <esowiki> [[NullScript 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68220&oldid=63375 * A * (+23)
14:33:21 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68221&oldid=63542 * A * (+23)
14:34:28 <esowiki> [[Tab]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68222&oldid=63512 * A * (+9)
14:34:41 <esowiki> [[Skim machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68223&oldid=63508 * A * (+23)
14:34:54 <esowiki> [[TISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68224&oldid=63574 * A * (+23)
14:35:21 <esowiki> [[Usage:Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68225&oldid=63552 * A * (+23)
14:36:14 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68226&oldid=63615 * A * (+23)
14:36:33 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68227&oldid=63892 * A * (+23)
14:36:57 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68228&oldid=63689 * A * (+23)
14:37:51 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68229&oldid=65968 * A * (+23)
14:38:11 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68230&oldid=63687 * A * (+23)
14:39:25 <esowiki> [[EML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68231&oldid=63782 * A * (+32)
14:39:34 <esowiki> [[Cyclic Amplification System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68232&oldid=63747 * A * (+23)
14:39:49 <esowiki> [[Sign]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68233&oldid=63806 * A * (+23)
14:41:15 <fizzie> int-e: Looks like the map is different, and some of the items too. The instant-death (well, end-of-game) ones are the same though.
14:41:18 <esowiki> [[DerpScrp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68234&oldid=63888 * A * (+31)
14:41:39 <esowiki> [[SLOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68235&oldid=63881 * A * (+30)
14:42:23 <esowiki> [[Cal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68236&oldid=64199 * A * (+23)
14:42:35 <esowiki> [[Forks & Forks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68237&oldid=63949 * A * (+23)
14:43:26 <esowiki> [[Playlist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68238&oldid=64241 * A * (+23)
14:43:37 <int-e> Which makes sense since they each have custom code.
14:45:57 <esowiki> [[Sidex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68239&oldid=64765 * A * (+23)
14:46:10 <esowiki> [[An arch is simply a curve.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68240&oldid=64660 * A * (+25)
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14:47:26 <esowiki> [[Deadfish Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68241&oldid=64934 * A * (+22)
14:47:59 <esowiki> [[Your Pillows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68242&oldid=64940 * A * (+24)
14:48:45 <esowiki> [[Smalllang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68243&oldid=64923 * A * (+23)
14:49:22 <esowiki> [[Afz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68244&oldid=65070 * A * (+32)
14:50:18 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68245&oldid=65315 * A * (+24)
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14:50:48 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68246&oldid=65310 * A * (+6)
14:51:48 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68247&oldid=65237 * A * (+23)
14:52:47 <esowiki> [[AutoColdKey]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68248&oldid=65407 * A * (+23)
14:53:34 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68249&oldid=65764 * A * (+23)
14:53:48 <esowiki> [[ROT-13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68250&oldid=65591 * A * (+23)
14:54:06 <esowiki> [[Osis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68251&oldid=65518 * A * (+23)
14:54:36 <esowiki> [[Edition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68252&oldid=65545 * A * (+50)
14:54:58 <esowiki> [[ADxc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68253&oldid=65559 * A * (+32)
14:55:47 <esowiki> [[Salt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68254&oldid=65847 * A * (+23)
14:56:42 <esowiki> [[Pth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68255&oldid=65914 * A * (+23)
14:57:04 <esowiki> [[Trash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68256&oldid=65971 * A * (+23)
14:57:18 <esowiki> [[GolfSpace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68257&oldid=66007 * A * (+23)
14:57:42 <esowiki> [[Slindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68258&oldid=66013 * A * (+23)
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15:00:15 <esowiki> [[Inc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68259&oldid=66133 * A * (+23)
15:00:48 <A-ee> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:MostLinkedPages Got a rank of 7. (Let your Christmas present be the edit-spam)
15:01:05 <A-ee> But zzo38 is going to be hard to beat.
15:02:04 <esowiki> [[Kov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68260&oldid=66129 * A * (+23)
15:02:51 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68261&oldid=66437 * A * (+23)
15:03:04 <esowiki> [[4004]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68262&oldid=66308 * A * (+23)
15:03:16 <esowiki> [[Imperative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68263&oldid=66288 * A * (+23)
15:03:31 <esowiki> [[Trate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68264&oldid=66169 * A * (+25)
15:03:49 <esowiki> [[B automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68265&oldid=66167 * A * (+23)
15:04:57 <esowiki> [[Dilemma]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68266&oldid=66805 * A * (+35)
15:05:10 <esowiki> [[Anarcheat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68267&oldid=66820 * A * (+23)
15:05:19 <esowiki> [[It Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68268&oldid=66779 * A * (+23)
15:05:28 <esowiki> [[UserScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68269&oldid=66737 * A * (+23)
15:06:24 <esowiki> [[Pass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68270&oldid=67377 * A * (+23)
15:06:38 <esowiki> [[Basis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68271&oldid=66999 * A * (+23)
15:07:36 <A-ee> There's nothing more to do and I still didn't beat that user...
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16:23:45 <arseniiv> <A-ee> (Let your Christmas present be the edit-spam) => this is funny because there are people who don’t celebrate it at this date
16:24:06 <arseniiv> and there is a week still before the new year
16:26:15 <arseniiv> @tell imode oh! Haven’t seen that three days ago
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18:38:05 <int-e> fizzie: I can decode strings but the final check is pretty funky... haven't penetrated it yet. The table of powers of 2 is associated with a division routine.
18:40:06 <int-e> > let d (x:xs) = map chr $ zipWith (+) [x..] (take x xs) in d [6,4,3,2,52,51,21]
18:41:07 <int-e> Oh and the base register is used as a stack pointer. And there's quite a bit of self-modifying code (for indirect addressing)
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18:42:15 <int-e> Ah and the map and items are hard-coded in the input, not generated from a seed.
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19:08:03 <zzo38> For vector format, I don't know what Google Keep uses, but I know of some other formats. There is DRAWX vector format, but very few programs support it (only two, as far as I know), and coordinates are integers limited to one thousand only.
19:08:33 <zzo38> I don't know if you can try to figure out the Google Keep's format if it has a internal vector format
19:17:09 <fizzie> Well, I'm just guessing it has one, because you can select individual parts of the drawing and move/scale them around. But even if there is one, there's no officially sanctioned way to access it that I know of.
19:17:17 <fizzie> I don't know what software would be good for drawing things freehand with a pen while keeping them editable. I've used Inkscape for vector stuff before, but it might not be that good for that particular purpose.
19:17:56 <kmc> illustrator?
19:18:38 <fizzie> Hmm, well, it also needs to work on ChromeOS, because that's my only device that has a pen.
19:19:33 <kspalaiologos> fizzie, what do you think about moving all trivial brainfuck derivatives into one page
19:19:52 <kspalaiologos> we possibly could run a script to move all pages tagged with this tag into one page and create sections with each
19:20:05 <kspalaiologos> this amount of them is just making the wiki boring and low-quality
19:20:18 <fizzie> (Apparently there's an "Adobe Illustrator Draw" for Android though.)
19:20:26 <fizzie> I don't know if that would really help that much.
19:21:17 <fizzie> It's not like the number of pages in the wiki matters. But maybe they should be all moved to one section, like how there's the separate joke language list. Not sure if that's so helpful either, though.
19:26:15 <zzo38> I don't know how to work a program on ChromeOS
19:26:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to write a drawing program on ChromeOS?
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19:37:30 <fizzie> Sort of. I mean, not in detail. Although these days it can run both Android applications and Linux software in a VM.
20:28:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:User]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68272&oldid=68158 * Hex96 * (+24)
20:30:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:User]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68273&oldid=68272 * Hex96 * (+26)
20:35:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68274&oldid=68144 * Hex96 * (+125)
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20:36:16 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68275&oldid=68274 * Hex96 * (+19)
20:37:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68276&oldid=68275 * Hex96 * (+73)
20:38:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68277&oldid=67807 * Hex96 * (+63)
20:38:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68278&oldid=68277 * Hex96 * (+70) /* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */
20:39:15 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68279&oldid=68278 * Hex96 * (+39)
20:42:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68280&oldid=68279 * Hex96 * (+38) /* Challenge answers */
20:44:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68281&oldid=68280 * Hex96 * (+11) /* Challenge answers */
20:47:02 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68282&oldid=66425 * Hex96 * (+36) /* Real Quines */
20:49:07 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68283&oldid=68282 * Hex96 * (+13) /* Your */
20:49:30 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68284&oldid=68283 * Hex96 * (+0) /* Your */
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21:27:10 <zzo38> Someone told me they would make up a web interface for sqlnetnews. My requirement is that the NNTP link is always available even if CSS and JavaScript is disabled. Do you have any other feature suggestions?
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21:30:30 <imode> poll: are text inputs and displays a "universal" input method?
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21:32:27 <imode> s/input method/IO method
21:44:22 <imode> I'm on the fence about it. I think symbol streams are interesting and somewhat medium-agnostic.
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22:06:22 <esowiki> [[String rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68285&oldid=68202 * Salpynx * (-61) Page should be renamed to distinguish from proper string rewriting (Shameful?)
22:21:29 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68286&oldid=68167 * JonoCode9374 * (+221) /* Implementations */
22:21:52 <esowiki> [[Or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68287&oldid=68286 * JonoCode9374 * (+12) /* RegExr Regex Expression */
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22:23:14 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68288&oldid=68165 * JonoCode9374 * (+5285) /* Interpreters */
22:30:28 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68289&oldid=65679 * JonoCode9374 * (+3660) /* About the Languages I've Made */
22:31:02 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68290&oldid=68289 * JonoCode9374 * (+3) /* Languages I'm working on */
22:41:12 * oerjan belatedly eats the season's first nutella ball
23:02:48 <fizzie> We bought some Ferreros Rocher (is that the right plural?), because apparently they're a big thing here.
23:03:10 <fizzie> (Also watched the Queen's Christmas message.)
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00:28:12 <paranick> does some languaes have ratio?
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03:21:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lingdong * New user account
03:45:45 <esowiki> [[User talk:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68291&oldid=65470 * A * (+387)
03:50:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68292&oldid=68291 * A * (+385)
03:54:41 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68293&oldid=68290 * A * (+12) /* Languages I've Inspired (feel free to add anything I've missed) */ W is inspired by Keg's spirit
03:56:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68294&oldid=68292 * A * (+255) /* Please don't recover the examples on Keg (yet) */
03:58:12 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68295&oldid=68157 * A * (+410)
03:59:46 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68296&oldid=68295 * A * (+204)
04:01:25 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68297&oldid=68296 * A * (+342)
04:03:57 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68298&oldid=68297 * A * (+394)
04:06:45 <esowiki> [[Wenyan-lang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68299 * Ts * (+1206) Created page with "'''Wenyan-lang''' ('''''') is a language created by [https://github.com/LingDong-/ LingDong-] in 2019. The language is Turing Complete. Wenyan-lang use classical Chinese..."
04:09:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68300 * A * (+253) Created page with "The language is a practical lang, not an esoteric programming language. I don't think it belongs here. --~~~~"
04:09:26 <esowiki> [[Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68301&oldid=68299 * Ts * (+114)
04:10:00 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68302&oldid=68298 * A * (+0)
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05:17:22 <esowiki> [[Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68303&oldid=59961 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /* Hello, world! in Chef */ The person who made the page stated that it should be Liquefy for some reason.
05:24:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68304&oldid=68300 * Ts * (+389)
05:25:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68305&oldid=68304 * Ts * (+45)
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06:07:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68306&oldid=68294 * JonoCode9374 * (+155)
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06:23:32 <int-e> fizzie: So the weight check turns out to be a lexicographic comparison, though obfuscated. So it's always the case that there's either an item that makes you too heavy all by itself, or an item such that all the other items together make you too light... which is basically what I did in my manual approach. So I wasn't all that lucky.
06:50:05 <int-e> fizzie: Oh and the key is simply the bitmask corresponding to the items selected.
07:30:43 <imode> is your doggo okay?
07:31:31 <Lykaina> not exactly gonna call my parents to see if i had a premonition
07:32:17 <imode> fwiw I think so too.
07:32:23 <imode> hate those dreams. are you okay?
07:34:11 <imode> I'm sure your dog is alright. dreams are projections rather than predictions.
07:38:58 <Lykaina> i always consider her my dog...even though i moved away a year ago
07:41:08 <Lykaina> she is technically their dog, i was just living with them at the time
07:41:55 <imode> doesn't stop you from caring about her.
07:46:29 <Lykaina> my parents will be pissed if i call at 2:45am
07:47:09 <int-e> and you might scare the dog too
07:47:25 <zzo38> Then wait until the morning if you want to call
08:07:02 <zzo38> Some people have suggested Omnath, Locus of Mana to substitute for mana burn if you need it. However, it doesn't quite work, but something similar can probably be made up in some circumstances.
08:07:49 <kmc> merry christmas all
08:07:49 <Lykaina> i thought mana burn was long gone from the ruleset?
08:08:03 <kmc> well it's boxing day in most of the world. but happy boxing day, or something
08:08:09 <zzo38> Yes, mana burn is gone from the rules.
08:08:09 * kmc has no idea what boxing day is about
08:09:59 <kmc> regifting should be encouraged
08:10:05 <kmc> but it goes against the consumerist aspect of christmas
08:10:28 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think regifting is good, and I think reusing is good
08:10:38 <kmc> i'm preparing a gift for my girlfriend, it's an emergency kit containing a mixture of new items, things i already had but want to get rid of, and things I got from other people on a "buy nothing" group
08:11:17 <zzo38> That would be good, then
08:14:18 <kmc> I have given away many items on the buy-nothing group, and got some good stuff myself (e.g. a nice messenger bag, several hundred USD worth of camping equipment)
08:17:08 <kmc> increasing aggregate utility through pareto improvements!
08:17:25 <kmc> I also like to take things others are throwing away and repair them
08:17:57 <kmc> for example my friend was getting rid of an electric toothbrush because she broke the plug on the charger base
08:18:23 <kmc> (in a rather spectacular accident involving a well known design flaw of American outlets, namely that a piece of metal can fall across the prongs while they are plugged in)
08:18:36 <kmc> anyway, it was simple enough to cut off the plug and solder on a new one
08:18:55 <kmc> i don't actually want an electric toothbrush for my teeth, but I have used it to clean jewelry
08:20:48 <kmc> but then I also accumulate a bunch of things I never get around to fixing, which are eventually thrown away
08:22:50 <int-e> fizzie: If you're interested, here's an annotated (and abridged, when it comes to string data) disassembly of the whole thing I got, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/aoc25_dis.txt
08:24:49 <int-e> (mnemonics should be self-explanatory except maybe "IBR" for "increment base register)
08:25:10 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68307&oldid=68288 * Betseg * (+34) /* Interpreters */
08:27:07 <zzo38> If you have Omnath with a -1/-1 counter and you have a lot of green manas in your mana pool, then you can get rid of Omnath if you can spend all of the green mana. (It may also be a different color, if Sleight of Mind or a similar effect is used.)
08:27:19 <zzo38> Can you make a puzzle out of that?
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08:40:53 <int-e> zzo38: arguably you've just done exactly that
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08:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68308&oldid=68276 * Hex96 * (+2)
08:46:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68309&oldid=68305 * A * (+441)
08:48:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68310&oldid=68309 * A * (+166)
08:49:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68311&oldid=68310 * A * (+14)
08:50:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68312&oldid=68311 * A * (+444)
08:52:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68313&oldid=68312 * A * (+43)
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10:14:26 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/issues/31
10:14:48 <kspalaiologos> please @tell me on any chances on making it at least tiny bit usable
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10:32:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68314&oldid=68281 * A * (+295) /* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */
10:33:50 <esowiki> [[Circ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68315 * A * (+208) Created page with "[[Circ]] is an esolang inspired by numbers on the clock. == Syntax == Basically this tries to group a list into equal (or almost-equal) values. Therefore [1, ... 12] gets grou..."
10:35:22 <esowiki> [[Backw]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68316 * A * (+238) I gotta make more so that the random click will result in my language.
10:35:45 <esowiki> [[Circ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68317&oldid=68315 * A * (+23)
10:36:49 <esowiki> [[Flas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68318 * A * (+201) Created page with "[[Flas]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]] that is theoretically inspired by flashing keyboards. == What it does == For every iteration this language a random bit in the in..."
10:37:53 <esowiki> [[Ref]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68319 * A * (+200) Created page with "[[Ref]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]] that is inspired by the reflection of light on a flat surface. == What it does == * <code>|</code> changes the direction of the co..."
10:38:48 <esowiki> [[Pens]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68320 * A * (+172) Created page with "[[Pens]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]] that is based on the behavior of pen-clicking. == Syntax == * <code>Click x,y</code> click all of the pens in the given range."
10:40:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68321&oldid=68314 * A * (+151) /* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */
10:42:49 <esowiki> [[Help me!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68322 * A * (+180) Created page with "[[Help me!]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]] that outputs a specific help string for every language. == Syntax == * <code>Help(language)</code>: Display help for the lang..."
10:44:15 <esowiki> [[Walk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68323 * A * (+266) Created page with "[[Walk]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]] that deals with how many paths there are in a specific maze. ==Syntax== * <code>#</code>: Defines a walkable area. So this maze:..."
10:45:12 <myname> how is that a language?
10:45:16 <esowiki> [[Invoke]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68324 * A * (+184) Created page with "[[Invoke]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]] that consists of invoking non-existing objects that have nothing in them. == Syntax == * <code>I</code>: Invoke the non-existen..."
10:45:56 <esowiki> [[Quack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68325 * A * (+74) Created page with "'''Quack''' is a '''qu'''eue/st'''ack''' language by [[User:A]]. {{stub}}"
10:46:30 <myname> ugh, A is being even worse than before
10:47:41 <esowiki> [[EmojiForth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68326 * A * (+143) Created page with "[[EmojiForth]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]]. It ''is'' Forth, the only difference is that all of the commands are replaced with emojis."
10:48:17 <int-e> 'Start making at least 100 esolangs (like me), where each esolang involves just a printing to stdout function (those languages are the easiest to make).'
10:48:51 <esowiki> [[2dq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68327 * A * (+174) Created page with "[[2dq]] is a two-dimensional queue-based langauge invented by [[User:A]]. == Commands == * <code>1</code>: Push 1 onto the queue. * <code>^v<></code>: Direction instructions."
10:49:09 <myname> most of these entries aren't even languages
10:49:54 <esowiki> [[Esoteric coder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68328 * A * (+138) Created page with "{{stub}} An '''esoteric coder''' would be anyone who codes in an [[esoteric programming language]]. == See also == * [[:Category:People]]"
10:52:18 <esowiki> [[DASW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68329 * A * (+241) Created page with "[[DASW]] is a [[Brainfuck]] replacement invented by [[User:A]]. == Instructions == * <code>a</code>: Start a while loop all the way to the end of the program. * <code>w</code>..."
10:52:40 <esowiki> [[DASW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68330&oldid=68329 * A * (+61)
10:53:52 <int-e> Once again I'm happy with my decision to filter A-related edits from esowiki's messages. It's still happening, of course, but I don't have to watch it unfolding in real time.
10:54:29 <myname> well, I am more annoyed by the wiki entries themself
10:54:42 <esowiki> [[Typeless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68331 * A * (+183) Created page with "[[Typeless]] is an esolang invented by [[User:A]]. Since it has absolutely no usable types, and the only possible data storage/instruction is variables, Typeless is a useless..."
10:56:35 <esowiki> [[ROT-0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68332 * A * (+114) Created page with "[[ROT-0]] is an "encryption" algorithm. [[User:A]] decides that this language just copies its input to its output."
10:58:11 <esowiki> [[TxeT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68333 * A * (+337) Created page with "[[txeT]] is a language created by [[User:A]] which constantly output its reversed source code. This language seems in the same computational class as [[Text]]. Btw, a program..."
10:59:57 <esowiki> [[REPILF Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68334 * A * (+183) Created page with "The REPILF Computer is a computational model made by [[User:A]] with -6 commands. == Instructions == -6 means that you already know all of the instructions in the computationa..."
11:02:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Morsefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68335&oldid=51685 * A * (+278)
11:03:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Letters++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68336 * A * (+216) Created page with "Maybe incrementing a symbol can be increment its ASCII codepoint? --~~~~"
11:05:15 <myname> is this even somehow moderated?
11:05:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Prelude]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68337&oldid=37077 * A * (+206)
11:06:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:D1ffe7e45e]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68338&oldid=45915 * A * (+193)
11:08:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Runespells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68339&oldid=45183 * A * (+211)
11:10:06 <int-e> We have wiki admins, but not around the clock.
11:26:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68340&oldid=68313 * Ts * (+407)
11:37:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68341&oldid=68022 * A * (+13)
11:39:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68342&oldid=68341 * A * (-1)
11:43:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68343&oldid=68342 * A * (+17)
11:44:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68344&oldid=68343 * A * (+2)
11:44:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68345&oldid=68344 * A * (+11)
11:45:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68346&oldid=68345 * A * (+10)
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11:50:09 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68347&oldid=62785 * A * (-82) 3var: latest commit = 2015 Zahlen: the author stopped expanding it at a useless subset.
11:53:00 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68348&oldid=68347 * A * (-109) Gotta continue removing some very old (or development-complete) languages
11:55:07 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68349&oldid=68348 * A * (-62) By this I mean if the latest commit of the wiki page is before (or is at) 2015, it is abandoned.
12:00:16 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68350&oldid=68349 * A * (-339)
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12:00:53 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68351&oldid=68350 * A * (-24)
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12:07:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68352&oldid=68153 * A * (+151)
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12:40:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68353&oldid=68352 * Fizzie * (+12942) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
12:40:51 <fizzie> And that was a misclick.
12:41:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68354&oldid=68353 * Fizzie * (-12942) Undo revision 68353 by [[Special:Contributions/Fizzie|Fizzie]] ([[User talk:Fizzie|talk]]) -- sorry, MediaWiki UI is confusing.
12:42:03 <fizzie> Fortunately I don't think it really matters what's on that specific page.
12:42:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure what to call those "languages". It's unfortunate they got so obsessed about having the most-linked userpage.
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13:01:33 <int-e> Oh is that their goal... meh.
13:01:56 <fizzie> Well, that, and getting the random page to land on one of theirs. At least that's my impression.
13:02:36 <int-e> Yeah, I got that. I even quited something to that effect earlier (from a comment they left on another User's page)
13:04:10 <int-e> See here, https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68321&oldid=68281
13:06:06 <fizzie> (Something else I find odd is, their signatures seem to have the "this comment by A; please sign your comments" bit, even though it looks like they're signing them as usual.)
13:06:25 <int-e> They've been signing like that for a while now.
13:06:46 <int-e> I think it's just another way of causing irritation.
13:07:31 <fizzie> Yes, it's just that from the edit summaries -- https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68336 for example -- it sure sounded like it was just a normal --~~~~ that they did.
13:08:18 <int-e> I don't want to think about it.
13:08:41 <fizzie> Anyway, I think I removed createpage and createtalk rights from them. Maybe. MediaWiki is hard. Going to have to make some comments about it now, I guess.
13:09:42 <int-e> Does that cover moving pages? (Or maybe they lost those rights earlier... hmm.)
13:17:33 <fizzie> I don't know. Removed "move" as well. I'm not too hopeful this approach to administration will actually work, though.
13:19:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68355&oldid=68354 * Fizzie * (+470) /* Spam pages */ New section.
13:23:33 <fizzie> Sorry in advance for the upcoming spam, I'm pretty sure Extension:Nuke will still report edits individually in here.
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[REPILF Computer]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[TxeT]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[ROT-0]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Typeless]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[DASW]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[2dq]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[EmojiForth]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Quack]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
13:25:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Invoke]]": Cleaning up recent no-content stubs from [[Special:Contributions/A|A]].
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13:26:35 <fizzie> Weren't that many of them after all.
13:27:56 <fizzie> (Those were just the recent super-spammy ones. I know there's many many more from earlier, but at least they look a little bit more like content.0
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13:33:33 <fizzie> In related news, I'm not sure it's great to have that Intcode interpreter right there on the page.
13:33:58 <int-e> I don't like it there either.
13:35:24 <int-e> But I don't want to simply remove it... I guess we could have an Intcode/Interpreters page?
13:36:03 <fizzie> I guess the problem is, there isn't really an obvious place to host code that you just want to share for esolangs.org purposes but don't want to have a, say, GitHub repo for under your own account.
13:36:20 <fizzie> That might work. MediaWiki still isn't the best thing for code, but at least it's not in the middle of the article that way.
13:36:40 <int-e> Okay, let's see if I can move this content without accident :)
13:37:17 <fizzie> Do we have subpages enabled for main namespace in the first place?
13:37:41 <fizzie> (Although I guess it doesn't really matter all that much whether it's an official subpage or not.)
13:38:37 <int-e> I don't think they act as subpages, no.
13:39:24 <fizzie> Well, probably none of the subpage features are that critical anyway.
13:39:42 <esowiki> [[Intcode/Interpreters]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68356 * Int-e * (+5381) Moving Python interpreter from main language page.
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13:43:24 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68357&oldid=68307 * Int-e * (-5338) [snip]
13:45:53 <int-e> fizzie: How do you feel about mnemonics for Intcode? Maybe if we can agree on a set... I was using ADD, MUL, IN, OUT, JNZ, JZ, SLT, SEQ, IBR, and STOP. Also #nnn for mode 1, and B+nnn and B-nnn for mode 2...
13:47:11 <int-e> (Which clearly shows my Intel assembly background. With Motorola I'd be using B instead of J)
13:49:18 <fizzie> I was using add, mul, in, out, jnz, jz, setlt, seteq, setb and halt.
13:49:56 <int-e> I guess AT&T would use b(nnn) for the base register use?
13:50:11 <int-e> I'm actually not sure.
13:50:43 <int-e> Hmm, "setb" is not logical.
13:51:10 <fizzie> For the opcodes, I think I prefer 'halt' over 'stop'; I find 'setb' illogical as well; and I don't have an opinion for slt/setlt, seq/seteq.
13:51:48 <int-e> I've thought about "addb", "incb", "advb" before going for the three-letter (but obscure) "IBR".
13:52:00 <fizzie> For operands, I was also first using #nnn for immediate and B+nnn and B-nnn for base-relative, but when I started considering labels, thought the "B" in something that looks like an expression but is actually special might be a little confusing. So I switched to nnn for immediate, *nnn for position mode, and @nnn for relative mode.
13:53:17 <int-e> Oh and I'm not sure how "relative base" became "base register" (and hence BR rather than RB) in my mind.
13:55:19 <fizzie> Also, I imagined having a syntax like: "foo: add [bar:X], *[baz:Y], @[zuul:Z]" for what'd essentially be the instruction "add X, *Y, @Z" but with labels for all the four locations.
13:56:26 <fizzie> Thought it'd be nicer than "foo: add X, *Y, @Z" and manually using foo+1, foo+2, foo+3.
13:58:56 <fizzie> In fact, wrote up http://ix.io/25xa as a potential syntax but then got sidetracked reading about parser generators.
13:59:30 <fizzie> (Looks like I was thinking of using mov, j, jlt and jeq as pseudo-ops as well.)
14:03:44 <int-e> The AoC code is funny in that regard.
14:04:28 <fizzie> The only one I disassembled properly seemed to be using "add x, 0, y" and "mul x, 1, y" about equally often.
14:04:37 <int-e> j uses one of jz #0 or jnz #1, seemingly at random, and for mov it uses both add src, #0, dst and mul src, #1, dst
14:04:54 <fizzie> Yes, I was thinking the pseudo-ops would pseudorandomly select one of the possible expansions.
14:05:10 <fizzie> "That's why they're called pseudo-ops!"
14:06:13 <int-e> I suspect the author actually has a higher level language implemented... maybe a minimal C dialect (in particular I suspect whatever language it is has a ternary conditional operator on the expression level.)
14:06:37 <int-e> This is my impression from the adventure game.
14:07:02 <fizzie> FWIW, I do like # for immediate, just thought it'd be better to have a sigil for (pos, rel) instead of (imm, rel), after abandoing the B+ / B- approach.
14:09:06 <int-e> (I'm still trying to remember the AT&T vaersion)
14:09:35 <fizzie> Yes, I think it'd be that.
14:11:52 <int-e> I guess @ is fine after a short period of adapting to it.
14:13:46 <fizzie> Incidentally, while I still haven't redone all of these in Go, for the set I do have (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 18 19 22), it takes the Python side 14 seconds to run through all of them, but 0.4s for the Go bunch.
14:14:25 <int-e> I'm changing my IBR to INCB and STOP to HALT. I like having short mnemonics so I'm sticking with SLT and SEQ.
14:14:38 <int-e> We agreed on the rest :)
14:16:47 <fizzie> I think that's perfectly reasonable.
14:18:25 <fizzie> Probably the only reason I went with SETLT/SETEQ is because of Intel's SETcc, but those would be SETL and SETE instead of SETLT and SETEQ anyway.
14:19:01 <fizzie> (Maybe there should be a "Proposed assembly syntax" section on the Intcode page, though.)
14:19:45 <int-e> Yeah that was the idea.
14:43:36 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68358&oldid=68357 * Int-e * (+1014) /* Proposed Assembly Syntax */ new section.
14:46:18 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68359&oldid=68358 * Int-e * (+15) /* Proposed Assembly Syntax */ oh, EBNF wants semicolons
14:47:20 <int-e> fizzie: ^^ it's a start
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15:31:01 <esowiki> [[End]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68360 * Hex96 * (+309) Created page with "End is an esolang by [[User:Hex96|Hex]]. They forgot how it works and lost the interpreter. They made a hello world program and a truth machine Hello world <pre> 101001010011..."
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15:35:05 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68363&oldid=68308 * Hex96 * (+21) /* List of esolangs */
16:05:04 <esowiki> [[Long]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68364&oldid=67897 * Hex96 * (+9726)
16:05:41 <esowiki> [[Long]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68365&oldid=68364 * Hex96 * (+26)
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16:28:28 <kspalaiologos> and the brainfuck -> this transpiler I fancy writing
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18:54:14 <bunnyocto> puh. how do I explain what a zip is?
19:02:18 <imode-ruby> stitching files together with a note saying what file is what.
19:06:04 <imode-ruby> oh. explain to them how a zipper works.
19:06:41 <imode-ruby> you have list A, and list B, and something that interleaves the two, such that elements of A and elements of B become interleaved, with elements of A coming first, then elements of B, etc.
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20:19:09 <FireFly> "take two arrays of the same length, and return an array of pairs with each pair containing each successive element of the input arrays" perhaps?
20:19:57 <FireFly> could use "producing an association list" as a motivating example
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20:46:39 <esowiki> [[End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68366&oldid=68362 * JonoCode9374 * (+0) Tiring complete sounds exhausting! :P
20:46:58 <myname> i woul probably explain zipWith first and zip as a kind of "i don't have a function so here are just you values" version of it
20:51:23 <FireFly> that sounds reasonable too, yeah
20:51:38 <FireFly> and zipWith is probably quite easy to explain by analogy to map
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21:37:17 <zzo38> Now they invented "Naive Image Format", although I think that Farbfeld is better. Their own comment is: "Configurability is admittedly a trade-off: one person's configuration parameter is another person's unnecessary bloat. We're not saying that Farbfeld is a bad design, just a different design that has chosen different trade-offs."
21:37:59 <zzo38> My own opinion of that is that this configurability is unsuitable for some purposes, and is insufficient for other purposes, so that doesn't make so much sense to me.
22:10:43 <zzo38> There may be sometimes the case where you will want to use premultiplied and sometimes not, but in a format such as this it is probably not useful since that would complicate the implementation, and instead is better that sometimes you may want to reinterpret existing data as premultiplied or not, or something more generalized. That is independent of the file format, and of most filters, too.
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22:54:44 <zzo38> The "K" in "CMYK" stands for "key" or "black". Either way works, but which usage is older?
22:56:31 <Frater_EST> Without looking at outside information, I would state that self-evidently K is a sign for Key primarily.
23:02:33 <zzo38> Wikipedia says the K is "key[citation needed]", while in PostScript the name /Black is used to refer to the K component of CMYK colours.
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23:18:06 <Frater_EST> zzo38 I think you are asking the wrong question, why is the K used, and not B? Black IS "Key" because that is its function, K is Key because the K is the first letter of the word.
23:18:41 <Frater_EST> So when you ask "Which usage is older" - the question has an embedded category error because neither usage is older. The K has always been Key has always been Black?
23:20:39 <zzo38> I mean whether whoever made the name "CMYK" intended the "K" to stand for "key" or "black".
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23:35:58 <Frater_EST> zzo38 What I am getting at is your framing for inquiry is likely incorrect: K stands for Key, this is directly self-evident that the letter "K" is used and not "B".
23:36:07 <Frater_EST> Black ALSO - IS Key, they are the same thing. And are meant to be the same thing from the get-go.
23:36:13 <Frater_EST> Nor is it arbitrary, such that for example, Green could be "K".
23:36:21 <Frater_EST> The context for choice is based on the qualitative relationships of color and the relevant field is "Color Theory".
23:36:27 <Frater_EST> To simplify: Black is the "Key" for an analogous reason that 0 is the start of a number line and not "Infinity".
23:36:57 <Frater_EST> Black is the perceptual phenomenon resulting from the "Lack" of colors, subtracting other color qualities.
23:39:22 <Frater_EST> So you have "White" which is the background, and "All Colors" perceptually imposing such that none are individually distinguishable. Then the sign has to be a contrast. Black as opposite is the "Key" color from which you can gain orientation on a scale, then you pick a set of colors (CYM) as choices between this binary.
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23:59:59 <zzo38> How to display subtitles on Raspberry Pi? It says there are two subtitles, but when I try to display them, the subtitles are not visible (although the message that says which subtitles are selected is visible)
00:02:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EthanPixelate * New user account
00:04:54 <zzo38> Also how to configure the skip amount by pushing the arrows?
00:10:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68367&oldid=68130 * EthanPixelate * (+468)
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00:43:52 <zzo38> Should there be a "languages with unknown working" category? There are some on esolang wiki.
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01:13:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68368&oldid=68340 * Ts * (+71)
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02:33:37 <imode> if you restrict thue's rule space to 3 symbols on the LHS and RHS, is it still turing complete?
02:34:47 <imode> this is also assuming a binary alphabet.
02:35:17 <imode> I guess yes, because you can construct rule 110 from that...?
02:39:34 <kmc> I think black is K because B was already blue, as in RGB
02:39:40 <kmc> i'm not sure there's anything more to it
02:39:52 <kmc> never heard of it meaning "key"
02:40:17 <kmc> but i'm not an expert in the field
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03:16:27 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a X server in PostScript?
03:17:09 <zzo38> That would allow you to print vector graphics from any X client.
03:18:03 <zzo38> A book I got mentions using PostScript for printing, although they just describe their program generating a PostScript code and then telling the system to print; they also say they could instead generate vector graphics and generate those PostScript codes instead.
03:18:22 <imode> zzo38: you should look at NeWS.
03:18:35 <imode> display postscript and all that.
03:19:20 <zzo38> But other ways would be to write a PostScript program to parse the file format used, or to use a PostScript-based X server.
03:20:00 <zzo38> imode: I saw NeWS, but I think that PostScript is not a very good document format or protocol, but PostScript is OK as a programming language.
03:20:39 <zzo38> And anyways it seem that NeWS is not X.
03:24:47 <zzo38> (I don't really like the pie menus either)
03:45:47 <imode> I can only see a 3-length binary string rewriting system as being TC if it's used to implement Rule 110. can't see any other way.
03:50:40 <int-e> Can you even do that? I mean you can implement the rules just fine, but you lose all the synchronicity.
03:51:34 <int-e> In fact, since the transitions overlap... it's not obvious how to make a CA.
03:51:35 <imode> if you assume a priority order, sure.
03:51:57 <imode> at least I think..
03:52:54 <int-e> It's also noteworthy that you operate on an infinite (to both sides) string here, so you're outside the string rewriting formalism anyway.
03:54:51 <int-e> (but that can be worked around; things like termination can still be undecidable for length-preserving string rewriting systems)
03:56:30 <imode> I guess my real question is: given Thue, limit the string length for the LHS and RHS to some constant value, and limit the alphabet to binary. what's the smallest length that still makes the resulting variant turing complete.
03:59:52 <int-e> hmm. probably too hard to answer ;)
04:00:13 <imode> it's an interesting idea, though.
04:00:49 <int-e> 65536 systems for length 2; 2^2^(2n) for length n.
04:01:15 <int-e> And then you have to decide on a question for "TC".
04:02:07 <int-e> (FWIW, I don't really accept the notion that rule 110 is TC. It embeds too much information in the starting configuration for my taste.)
04:02:33 <int-e> At least with the proof we have.
04:02:59 <imode> yeah... I'm kind of in the same boat.
04:04:09 <int-e> The (related) problem with length-preserving SRSs is that if you fix a starting string then it has only finitely many successors, and that makes pretty much every question you might ask about that (termination, reachability of a particular string, even stuff like confluence, weak normalization, and so forth) decidable.
04:04:29 <int-e> So the question you ask somehow has to allow strings of unbounded length.
04:04:55 <imode> I don't have any reservations about that.
04:05:03 <int-e> like "is there a string that doesn't terminate"
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05:14:04 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68369 * EthanPixelate * (+2950) Created page with "'''Human Resource Code''' is an esolang based off a game called [https://tomorrowcorporation.com/humanresourcemachine Human Resource Machine]. The only commands used are those..."
05:30:41 <oerjan> xkcd updating early, what is this magic
05:31:27 <oerjan> . o O ( it's always possible i just missed the previous one. )
05:32:37 <int-e> seems a bit off season... unless Randall's gone Australian.
05:32:45 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68370&oldid=68369 * EthanPixelate * (+1518)
05:33:56 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68371&oldid=68370 * EthanPixelate * (+3) /* Carpet Manipulation */
05:40:14 <oerjan> int-e: not enough fires to be australian hth
05:40:43 <oerjan> although dmm seems to have stopped twittering about it, so maybe they stopped
05:42:32 <int-e> from what I'm reading they haven't. they have slowed down a little thanks to a bit of rain and less wind.
05:45:05 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68372&oldid=68371 * EthanPixelate * (+381)
05:48:34 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68373&oldid=68372 * EthanPixelate * (+2) /* Jumping and Controlled Flow */
06:01:19 <esowiki> [[User:EthanPixelate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68374 * EthanPixelate * (+38) Created page with "I am potato :D ,---. \___/ ^ | potato"
06:02:43 <esowiki> [[User:EthanPixelate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68375&oldid=68374 * EthanPixelate * (-20)
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06:15:49 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68377&oldid=68376 * EthanPixelate * (+0) /* Jumping and Controlled Flow */
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06:53:07 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68378&oldid=68377 * EthanPixelate * (+85) /* Basic IO */
06:58:34 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68379&oldid=68378 * EthanPixelate * (+0) /* Introduction */
07:18:12 <Lykaina> i had a realy scary nightmare last night and i think i'm afraid to fall asleep
07:19:08 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68380&oldid=68379 * EthanPixelate * (+335)
07:19:31 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68381&oldid=68380 * EthanPixelate * (-1) /* Example Programs */
07:19:33 <Lykaina> i moved bedding to my sofa
07:20:23 <Lykaina> guess i'm trying to sabotage sleeping
07:21:02 <kmc> you could try sleeping on the sofa
07:21:19 <Lykaina> too late at night to move it back to my bed
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07:43:15 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68382&oldid=68381 * EthanPixelate * (+1270) /* Example Programs */
07:49:09 <int-e> Oh we seem to have lost shachaf.
08:01:36 <int-e> `learn GOTO is just one step removed from going to hell.
08:01:39 <HackEso> Learned 'goto': GOTO is just one step removed from going to hell.
08:06:35 <kingoffrance> zzo38, there was some display postscript extension for x on sourceforge long ago, i dunno if it ever was completed or any real programs really used it; i think proprietary unices might have shipped a real thing by default (sun? hpux? vms? irix? i dunno) ... i assume it was meant to be "compatible" to display such clients on a "free" x server (i.e. on a non-proprietary unix) but i could be way off
08:06:51 <kingoffrance> AFAIK it died and was never really used, so you might to google and archive.org to find it
08:07:25 <kingoffrance> i vaguely recall it was related to the xprint extension, but also could be way off
08:07:34 <kingoffrance> which im not sure anyone really uses/used that either
08:09:09 <kingoffrance> i dont think it was meant to be compatible with nextstep/openstep non-x stuff, but there was some speculation e.g. gnustep might be curious too use it; i assume they are/were somewhat use to aim with source-compatible with such apps, but how that manifested/manifests re: display servers i have no idea
08:09:30 <int-e> Display Postscript is ancient (oh but I didn't remember that it originated with NeXT)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript
08:09:49 <kingoffrance> (ns/os display postscript i mean); ns/os you could run x servers too, but i dont believe there was really a "bridge" to/from the DPS stuff, although you could run "rootless" somewhat
08:10:45 <kingoffrance> cube x window x server for nextstep/openstep is free license nowadays :) iso download i believe
08:11:10 <int-e> To my mind it's one of those "next big things" that never materialized.
08:11:51 <int-e> Probably killed by 3D graphics.
08:12:14 <kingoffrance> tru64 or dgux also might have been the thing that had display postscript x extension :/
08:12:23 <kingoffrance> i dunno, maybe for same cad program or something :/
08:12:38 <zzo38> I think 3D graphics (and other fancy graphics) are overused
08:12:43 <kingoffrance> so this x extension i think was meant to be compatible with that, and not the nextstep/openstep stuff
08:13:27 <zzo38> You can still use external PostScript interpreter, such as Ghostscript so you can still use Ghostscript to display PostScript graphics on a X window
08:14:35 <zzo38> But as far as I know, Ghostscript does not provide any way to read X events, nor can the X drawing functions be used in PostScript
08:16:52 <kingoffrance> ns/os is one of the things i dont think ive ever seen a vnc server for; client, but not server; i believe there are "drivers" for e.g. vmware, but im not sure of any good remote display (although qemu vnc server might suffice)
08:16:52 <int-e> It's only appropriate. Ghosts generally have trouble interacting with their environment.
08:18:05 <zzo38> Standard I/O still works, but it doesn't have X events.
08:18:24 <kingoffrance> well, some forum at least one person was trying to hack a darwin kernel to "backport", and i think they got this frankenstein booting at least, so maybe there will slowly be some up to date "ports", lack of proper posix is a killer
08:18:44 <zzo38> (Even so, PostScript graphics are best for printing rather than on screen, since PostScript uses printer fonts rather than screen fonts)
08:18:48 <kingoffrance> i believe its all legal, not stolen source or anything..... just very.....frankensteinish
08:19:23 <kingoffrance> and theres a next emulator or two now too, to emulate the next hardware, so there are sort of some people still doing stuff
08:21:03 <zzo38> It is also possible to write programs that embed Ghostscript; such as, TeXnicard embeds Ghostscript and SQLite, but uses the TeX fonts rather than PostScript fonts. It isn't very clear how to work separations when using the Ghostscript "display" device though; do you know how?
08:21:55 <kingoffrance> i hope you arent asking me, i play with oses; programming is another story :/
08:22:34 <zzo38> O, OK. Which oses you play with?
08:23:10 <kingoffrance> anything i can get my grubby hands on; i dont have much hardware nowadays, just cheap x86 stuff; the one thing i cant find an emualtor for is beos ppc, no powerpc emulator that i have found will run it
08:23:32 <zzo38> (TeXnicard is written half in C, half in SQL, and half in PostScript. It does not embed TeX but does use its font formats and some of its algorithms.)
08:24:35 <kingoffrance> someone in ##electronics said they are writing an sgi indy emulator, qemu is too slow
08:24:44 <zzo38> kindoffrance: I have not used many operating systems, but have used emulation of some systems, including 6502
08:25:01 <kingoffrance> so that perhaps is i used to have real hw, but never had time to play with
08:25:09 <kingoffrance> so he is doing penance for my sins of losing that hw
08:25:26 <zzo38> (Well, TeXnicard includes PCRE as well)
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08:26:22 <kingoffrance> i guess alpha emulators dont like windows nt, but that doesnt particularly interest me
08:26:52 <zzo38> Once I worked it enough would you or someone to try to make templates to render Magic: the Gathering cards and other card games with TeXnicard?
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08:30:06 <zzo38> I think TeX is a good typesetting system (for when you want text, rather than graphics; for graphics, PostScript is better), and wrote my own DVI driver that reads the DVI and PK fonts and converts it into the rasterized format.
08:30:54 <zzo38> However, TeXnicard does not actually use TeX (it implements some of its algorithms and file formats itself) (although METAFONT is recommended, but not technically strictly required); it uses SQL and PostScript.
08:31:20 <zzo38> So you do not need to know how to program in TeX to use TeXnicard.
08:31:30 <zzo38> Do you make up your own Magic: the Gathering cards?
08:32:09 <kingoffrance> i was never part of such things, other than rpg video games vaguely reminescent/relate
08:32:23 <kingoffrance> e.g. some of the final fantasy games added cards eventually
08:33:11 <zzo38> (You might wonder why it is called TeXnicard if it does not use TeX. I suppose the relation of TeXnicard to TeX is about as much as TeXmacs is to TeX; TeXmacs doesn't use TeX either.)
08:33:16 <kingoffrance> i dunno about modern stuff if they kept such things as a "side game" type thing
08:37:48 <kingoffrance> i think if you are making your own cards that is probably more in the spirit of such things
08:38:18 <kingoffrance> "purists" probably hate people who do such, but so long as they are not blatant ripoffs, it probably shows you understand the "mechanics" or "substance" of things
08:38:43 <kingoffrance> you have to have some understanding to do such things i mean, or at least well
08:39:42 <kingoffrance> lots of people hated many f.f. and square "3d remakes" and re-scores (music), but really, that to me is kind of what they wouldve done had they better hardware than e.g. snes
08:40:41 <kingoffrance> some people just dont like anyone touching their favorite thing, even the same company who made it, but as long as it is in the spirit of things, it doesnt bother me
08:43:43 <kingoffrance> its totally different if e.g. you are selling stuff commercially, then i would say stay far away from such things
08:45:31 <kingoffrance> thats the beauty of my nick; so long as there is no competition i am scot free
08:45:50 <kingoffrance> you dont want to mess with people who have not abandoned their throne
08:56:11 <kingoffrance> the other beauty is i will probably never go to france, so in exile i am safer
08:56:58 <zzo38> Of course if I make up the card, is unofficial. It is not meant to be used in official tournament. Many other people also make up such unofficial card
08:57:28 <zzo38> (These unofficial cards is not meant to be sold commercially either)
09:23:03 <myname> I never got the populatory of mtg tbh. I know it has been around for quite a while, but imo there are better competitive card games
09:23:58 <myname> yu-gi-oh ruined some of those, though
09:54:19 <zzo38> Sometimes you might want to construct puzzles out of nonstandard cards (like how sometimes they construct puzzles out of nonstandard chess pieces), so in such cases you might use names such as #1 and #2 and so on, and then list the text of the nonstandard cards with the puzzle.
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12:19:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Herman-L * New user account
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12:26:22 <kspalaiologos> how were the brainfuck constants on wiki generatede?
12:29:06 <int-e> I imagine brute force? enumerate all programs up to a certain length and run them to conclusion (up to some number of steps), then check the tape for numbers?
12:29:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68383&oldid=68367 * Herman-L * (+320) /* Introductions */
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13:22:52 <esowiki> [[Ral]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68384 * Herman-L * (+2892) Created page with "Ral is a stack-based random-access esoteric language created by Code Golf and Coding Challenges user [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/70894/ Herman-L]. == Descriptio..."
13:30:39 <esowiki> [[Ral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68385&oldid=68384 * Herman-L * (+408) Add sample code
13:33:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68386&oldid=68034 * Herman-L * (+10) Add Ral
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14:18:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aliu0130 * New user account
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14:21:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68387&oldid=68383 * Aliu0130 * (+280) /* Introductions */
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15:45:09 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68388&oldid=68085 * Hex96 * (+49)
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16:00:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68389 * Hex96 * (+75) Created page with "hey truttle, can your next vid be about one of my esolangs, [[Muppp]]? Thx."
16:12:21 <esowiki> [[A very long language name that is very weird and yeah, this is your but its this]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68390 * Hex96 * (+204) Created page with "A very long language name that is very weird and yeah, this is your but its this is [[Your]] but every Your is replaced by A very long language name that is very weird and yea..."
16:12:46 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68391&oldid=68363 * Hex96 * (+87)
16:16:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68392&oldid=68386 * Hex96 * (+87)
16:17:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68393&oldid=68392 * Hex96 * (+23) /* T */
16:18:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68394&oldid=68393 * Hex96 * (+12) /* M */
16:27:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68395&oldid=68394 * Hex96 * (+11) /* U */
16:42:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pppery * New user account
16:43:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68396&oldid=68387 * Pppery * (+159) /* Introductions */
16:45:11 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68397&oldid=68359 * Pppery * (+0) /* Evolution */ Relative mode wasn't actually introduced until Day 9
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17:22:53 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68398&oldid=68382 * EthanPixelate * (+5)
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17:54:11 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68399&oldid=68397 * Fizzie * (+82) /* Proposed Assembly Syntax */ Just a thought.
18:08:23 <rain1> recommend any new nonfiction books?
18:11:27 <kmc> on what subject
18:18:00 <zzo38> I have question relating to quantum entanglement. Will the "backward in time" model work? If two experimenters far away from each other make the same measurement and have the opposite answer, then they are, from the point of view from each other, backward in time to the source and then forward to the other one, in the other direction.
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18:32:12 <rain1> zzo38: is this a way of asking does quantum information travel faster than light? i think the answer is no
18:32:26 <rain1> you can produce correlated results but not send any information
18:33:36 <zzo38> No it is not a way of asking about information. I know it does not send any information.
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18:40:03 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68400&oldid=68398 * EthanPixelate * (+5344)
18:40:37 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68401&oldid=68400 * EthanPixelate * (+1) /* Lua */
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19:19:56 <kspalaiologos> and someone protected his user page from creating for unknown to me reason
19:19:59 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that if the German word "Deutsch" were made English, then it would be "Theech". Do you know if it is or not?
19:22:08 <zzo38> Do you know German so well? Then maybe you might know better than I would know
19:24:40 <kspalaiologos> "Theedish" or "Theech" is an adaptation of Old English þéodisc, meaning "national" (from þéod, "nation"). It's of the same origin as the German word Deutsch (which goes back to Old German diot, also meaning "nation"), hence why it's used as an English equivalent. A lot of national names come from words meaning simply "nation" in the native tongues.
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19:36:05 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> what did the person nicknamed A do => a mess. Though what specifically in the last several days, I hadn’t watched
19:37:59 <arseniiv> there are some people which unfortunately type faster than they should have been considering doing :(
19:39:04 <arseniiv> technically A usually edited mainly pages created by them, and pages like language property lists. If it had progressed beyond that, well, shame
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21:23:02 <kspalaiologos> Is there any eaisly portable compiler for any language?
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22:37:58 <arseniiv> my favorite question I hadn’t asked anybody, ever: how do you solve the expression problem?
22:38:27 <arseniiv> (in a statically-typed language)
22:38:37 <imode> expression problem?
22:42:49 <arseniiv> imode: there are several types of data, several types of operations applicable to all of them, and you need to be able to add both data and operations without modifying the existing code (e. g. it’s partially third-party or you don’t want to break API or something). Also it’s desirable that when a (data, operation) case isn’t defined for some existing data and operation, the compiler would complain even when that case isn’t u
22:42:49 <arseniiv> sed anywhere. Though the last part is my invention I think. Also I’ll find a link about this thing
22:44:34 <arseniiv> https://koerbitz.me/posts/Solving-the-Expression-Problem-in-Haskell-and-Java.html maybe here is a bearable description with some additional context too
22:50:09 <arseniiv> btw about that in Haskell, there are finally tagless interpreters but they aren’t very cool when you need to inspect the data structure?.. I hadn’t read much on that yet, though I’m partially interested in the topic. Maybe I would make a language and wish there were no e. p.
22:50:43 <arseniiv> also, extensible records and ext. variants are nice for that part
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23:44:03 <imode> I have 3 days worth of free time and I'm doing nothing with it.
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01:57:44 <oerjan> <kspalaiologos> what did the person nicknamed A do <-- most recently, deciding that e wanted to get higher on the "most linked" special page rankings and also in total number of pages created, and deciding to do so by creating a lot of even more trivial language pages than e previously had
01:58:19 <oerjan> in general, a severe lack of self control and judgement.
01:59:02 <oerjan> but not quite enough to get permanently banned. yet.
01:59:34 <oerjan> (the user page ban was the result of one eir previous noisy experiments)
02:01:13 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68402&oldid=68401 * EthanPixelate * (-1) /* Jumping and Controlled Flow */
02:01:53 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68403&oldid=68402 * EthanPixelate * (+18) /* Trying HRC */
02:02:30 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68404&oldid=68403 * EthanPixelate * (+63)
02:03:47 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68405&oldid=68404 * EthanPixelate * (+0)
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02:55:49 <zzo38> Is there a command in Firefox to save a partially (or fully) filled form?
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04:52:51 <esowiki> [[10Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68406 * BrainF99 * (+695) Created page with "==10Brainfuck== 10Brainfuck is going to be my first contribution as far as esolangs are concerned. First of all programs are actually going to be written in octal. The octal c..."
04:56:58 <esowiki> [[10Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68407&oldid=68406 * BrainF99 * (+40)
05:02:32 <zzo38> A variant of the Magic: the Gathering "Commander" format would be to allow your commander to be any card (regardless of type and supertype), rather than only a legendary creature.
05:03:17 <esowiki> [[10Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68408&oldid=68407 * BrainF99 * (+4)
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05:12:29 <zzo38> Another variant would allow cards with the wrong color identity but to have some sort of restriction and/or penalty involved for such thing.
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06:07:42 <zzo38> I remember mentioned on here before about a prism that is red or blue when activated, and communicates with an alternative universe with a different colour. I think you mentioned to try to use monads to make it up in the computer?
06:08:49 <zzo38> This is what I have: data Prism :: * -> * -> *; data Channel :: * -> * -> *; instance Eq (Channel a b); instance Monad (Prism a); runPrism :: forall a. (forall b. Prism b a) -> a; new :: forall a b. Prism b (Bool, Channel b a); send :: forall a b. a -> Channel b a -> Prism b (); receive :: forall a b. Channel b a -> Prism b a; I don't know what the definitions would be though, or even if those types will work
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06:17:55 <int-e> https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2019/Fahrplan/events/10703.html is promising :)
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07:18:01 <int-e> FireFly: well I liked it
07:18:57 <int-e> (We can argue about the title. I picked it for contents. https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2019/Fahrplan/events/10703.html )
07:19:10 <int-e> oops(I should've linked to that
07:20:12 <int-e> I meant to link to the video: https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10703-the_ultimate_acorn_archimedes_talk
07:23:46 <FireFly> I saw the Intel ME talk yesterday, haven't really looked closely at the others yet
07:23:55 <FireFly> I'll catch the recordings later
07:32:42 <int-e> hmm I guess the Plundervolt talk would be more interesting if I had not read the paper.
07:35:23 <int-e> But the (cleaned up) uploads are lagging behind the schedule. I'll check again later.
07:38:18 <int-e> (That's *not* a complaint. The CCC media team is amazing.)
09:08:19 <kspalaiologos> imode, I've got something if you want to somehow spend these three days
09:15:18 <esowiki> [[User:Pppery]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68409 * Hex96 * (+27) Created page with "Welcome to esolangs Pppery!"
09:16:36 <imode> kspalaiologos: what would that be
09:17:24 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68410&oldid=68391 * Hex96 * (+86)
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10:21:58 <kspalaiologos> imode, well, I'm looking for someone to help me with finding a reasonable compiler to tweak it so it targets my asm2bf
10:22:18 <kspalaiologos> I don't feel like writing my own language, but I could take on creating yet another C compiler
10:23:19 <kspalaiologos> @tell imode please check the logs if you feel like it
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11:32:51 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68411&oldid=67298 * Palaiologos * (+265) amp & sm, r5
11:34:28 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68412&oldid=68411 * Palaiologos * (+0) four GPR's -> five GPR's
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12:15:07 <kspalaiologos> anyone willing to read the article, give some feedback on the assembler
12:24:19 <int-e> zzo38: Oh, this reminds me of you: https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10701-select_code_execution_from_using_sqlite
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13:52:21 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68413&oldid=68412 * Palaiologos * (+976) Programming techniques / Portability
13:52:44 <kspalaiologos> I believe asm2bf article may be the longest one currently on wiki
14:07:09 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68414&oldid=68413 * Palaiologos * (+576) Programming techniques / Compact loops
14:20:28 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68415&oldid=68038 * Hex96 * (+20) /* Cat program */
14:30:34 <fizzie> Hmm, the wiki XML dump has started failing with a "LocalFileLockError". :/
14:31:12 <fizzie> On an apparently-random directory (archive/d/d9/) which looks just like all the other directories as far as permissions are concerned.
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15:05:01 <fizzie> Bah. This error message is just useless.
15:10:18 <fizzie> It does seem to fail for the third revision of https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Plus1b.PNG which doesn't have a thumbnail either. I think it's missing the file name (for whatever reason), and consequently attempting to lock the directory instead of a file in it.
15:11:44 <fizzie> There is a file in the directory, it's just somehow lost track of it I guess.
15:22:18 <fizzie> Well, some careful direct database manipulation seems to have resolved it. Couldn't even delete it from the web interface; because the archive name was missing, the delete link was pointing to the "delete all versions" action.
15:26:55 <fizzie> What I was *going* to say before all that, in terms of lines of raw wikitext, the Asm2bf article is #19 in the main namespace (but it's not a size competition). It might be the longest in terms of content; most of the longer ones are just long lists of implementations and/or examples.
15:28:12 <fizzie> (Top-20 at http://ix.io/25Im .)
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16:24:36 <zzo38> int-e: What I saw so far, it is clearly enough, and is even intended behaviour. But I suppose that is why they added SQLITE_DBCONFIG_ENABLE_VIEW, since some programs will not want that.
16:34:58 <zzo38> (The bugs with shadow tables clearly is not intended, but I think they start to correct that and have also added a defensive mode to mitigate that a bit.)
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16:52:11 <zzo38> What they mention now seems to be FTS3 anyways; there are newer versions of FTS, with a better way to pass pointers to SQL codes. (The pointers can only come from a C code, and if passed to any SQL function or INSERT statement or whatever that is not expecting it, you will just get null instead and will not be able to use the pointer.)
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17:08:04 <zzo38> Some stuff in that video is just badly written. (Did they not proof read it?)
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17:19:39 <zzo38> Their exploit depends on FTS3 being available, so won't work without that.
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19:13:12 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68416&oldid=68405 * EthanPixelate * (+145)
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20:23:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WilliamRagstad * New user account
21:04:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68417&oldid=68396 * WilliamRagstad * (+360) Added an introduction about me (William Rgstad)
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21:18:54 <esowiki> [[User:Herman-L]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68418 * Herman-L * (+99) Created page with "Hello! I am the Code Golf Stack Exchange user with the same name. I am also the creator of [[Ral]]."
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21:28:27 <esowiki> [[Ral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68419&oldid=68385 * Herman-L * (+196) Add categories
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21:44:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * WilliamRagstad * uploaded "[[File:Sweden-Flag-icon.png]]"
21:50:39 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68421 * WilliamRagstad * (+1243) My personal page
21:52:17 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68422&oldid=68421 * WilliamRagstad * (+31) Split some text
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22:52:23 <kspalaiologos> Someone's got a decent Brainfuck implementation or I have to roll my own?
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22:55:27 <imode> if you wanna do it naively, shifting, ANDing and such should be doable in terms of multiplication division by 2.
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22:55:46 <imode> ANDing though I'm not really sure..
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23:09:21 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68423&oldid=68422 * WilliamRagstad * (+0)
23:44:01 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68424 * WilliamRagstad * (+458) Started writing about WordLang
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23:59:25 <fizzie> "You will need to configure a better logger to collect the extra fields, for example Monolog."
23:59:30 <HackEso> Thanks, MediaWiki. ThediaWiki.
00:15:05 <fizzie> Looks like it's just broken. The response is successful (and looks to have all the content it needs), but has a 'code' of 0 (instead of the expected 200), so is treated as an error.
00:21:28 <fizzie> ...because it runs curl and tries to do a regex match on /^(HTTP\/1\.[01]) (\d{3}) (.*)/ to parse the protocol, code, and reason, and the response from this particular server is "HTTP/2 200". No, it can't seriously be that stupid...
00:26:17 <fizzie> https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki/commit/b05b69d -- yes, it is that stupid.
00:26:31 <fizzie> At least they've fixed it... 27 days ago, in a version I haven't installed.
00:47:20 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68425&oldid=68424 * WilliamRagstad * (+76) Added more categories
00:52:42 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68426&oldid=68425 * WilliamRagstad * (+90)
00:53:10 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68427&oldid=68426 * WilliamRagstad * (-1)
00:55:57 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68428&oldid=68427 * WilliamRagstad * (+54)
01:22:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68429&oldid=68395 * WilliamRagstad * (+15) Added WordLang
01:24:35 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68430&oldid=68428 * WilliamRagstad * (+657)
01:33:18 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68431&oldid=68430 * WilliamRagstad * (+196) Wrote about the etymology
01:36:01 <esowiki> [[Cryptoleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68432&oldid=54297 * Fizzie * (+316) Put some math in it. Not sure about that last paragraph...
01:36:39 <fizzie> oerjan: zzo38: I've provisionally installed the Math extension, and it seems to work at least a little bit. No guarantees it will always continue to work, if MediaWiki makes it too hard to keep working.
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01:49:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[User:Pppery]] to [[User talk:Pppery]]: Generally, discussion should go on talk pages, and you should normally not edit another users main page
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03:12:43 <oerjan> and there's a scene change, i guess we'll have to wait to see if cindy's plan is a gooey one
03:14:02 <oerjan> sorlie should have a talk with the freefall police chief
03:47:01 <imode> is there any insane mechanics to sed other than find/replace.
04:19:01 <oerjan> imode: i think the hold space stuff can get pretty hairy?
04:20:27 <oerjan> anything where you try to do things across lines requires that
04:22:30 <imode> interesting. I don't know how hold space works.
04:33:39 <kingoffrance> there used to be sourceforge page something or other with a bunch of sed scripts
04:33:54 <kingoffrance> i dont know if they are "quality" but only time ive seen a collection of them assembled in one spot
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05:12:08 <imode> I have to wonder if a tool/"language" like `sed` has been adopted as an actual practical, general purpose programming language. it isn't hard to build control flow in it.
05:47:47 <kingoffrance> well i think it was like to solve/sort the towers of discs thing i forget what its called; i.e. not necessarily useful, but to prove it can be done in pure sed
05:53:27 <kingoffrance> i dont really have a cs background so my closest frame of reference is i just imagine: https://cuphead.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Chips_Bettigan/@comment-34432156-20180122112550 "In Japan the toy is called 'Daruma Otoshi'"
05:54:16 <imode> the puzzles are nice, but I can't shake that there might be some actual practical elements of working with a parallel rule processing engine.
05:54:25 <imode> (or parallelizable, anyway...)
05:55:10 <kingoffrance> i learned something googling that: "This traditional Japanese game requires a good eye and fast reflexes. The purpose of the game is to knock the center pieces out with the hammer without causing the doll on top to fall over"
05:55:25 <kingoffrance> took me a while to find a screenshot :/ i didnt know that was based on a real thing
05:57:04 <kingoffrance> that seems a lot like the table cloth thing in movies where they try to yank it out without breaking/moving plates
05:58:30 <kingoffrance> coding-wise, it seems to be a "refactoring/maintenance" metaphor
05:58:48 <kingoffrance> and better than zuckerburg's (IIRC) "trying to change a tire on a moving car"
06:01:39 <kingoffrance> lotmn is almost nethack-esque in that you can throw coins/money at enemies
06:01:52 <kingoffrance> if you need a long-range projectile (it will cost you of course)
06:04:10 <imode> there was a time when I actually had plans for a practical string rewriting language. it was based on the idea of communicating components: segments of the string were mapped to things like queues, stacks, arrays, program memory, etc. they communicated by sending signals back and forth through the string.
06:04:37 <imode> guess it was less of a language and more of an implementation layer. almost like an FPGA.
06:09:39 <kingoffrance> i suppose roguelikes "anything is possible" and bruce less/ninja "anything can be a weapon" such a similarity is not surprising
06:12:44 <kingoffrance> in my mind nethack i suppose is a "typeless items" game, ideally you can "cast" many things and they will do *something* at least, depending on how they are used
06:15:25 <kingoffrance> (or at least, items should allow more than one use/"type")
06:17:38 <oerjan> ais523 has said similar things on reddit
06:25:37 <oerjan> "For example, the reason NetHack's UI is so clunky is that it has to allow players to attempt to do anything they might think of; most of the possible combinations won't be useful, but we have to try to make the game react sensibly to anything you might think of, whereas Pathos is typically happy to prevent you trying something that couldn't possibly help."
06:26:06 <oerjan> (comparing with a different game)
06:26:46 <kingoffrance> "we" sounds like ais523 is/was a dev or otherwise involved
06:28:35 <oerjan> he was developing the nethack 4 variant, and then got induced into the devteam for original nethack when they expanded a few years ago
06:37:35 <kingoffrance> imode, that sounds like it would keep "state" contained in a human-accessible form all the time, so long as they are kept relatively "small" you have an easy representation of "the world [of the program]" you can pass around, copy, change, spin up a new "instance" or "clone", "snapshots", "rewind" etc.
06:38:37 <kingoffrance> almost like everything is kept "serialized" all the time
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07:17:31 <imode> kingoffrance: pretty much, yeah.
07:17:56 <imode> that's a really nice side effect of it. it's literally just a giant string.
07:18:38 <imode> it's basically "what if we made Thue not shit".
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07:54:09 <int-e> ...then we would end up with a terrible case of congestion...
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09:31:26 <esowiki> [[Nuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68434&oldid=67020 * YamTokTpaFa * (+122)
09:51:49 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68435&oldid=68431 * WilliamRagstad * (+1)
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10:54:03 <int-e> https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10601-how_not_to_build_autonomous_robots is good
11:20:07 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68436&oldid=68435 * WilliamRagstad * (-2)
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11:36:11 <Gollypot> fungot: have fun with what you got
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11:53:37 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68437&oldid=68436 * WilliamRagstad * (+789)
11:55:02 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68438&oldid=68437 * WilliamRagstad * (+4)
11:55:33 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68439&oldid=68438 * WilliamRagstad * (-4)
11:56:40 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68440&oldid=68439 * WilliamRagstad * (+22)
11:58:01 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68441&oldid=68440 * WilliamRagstad * (+4)
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12:06:05 <fizzie> Oh, right, we had that power outage.
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12:07:15 <fizzie> fungot: Sorry about that.
12:07:16 <fungot> fizzie: the acute observer may have noticed that at times a new comer i'd remove it. i just tried
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12:10:43 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68442&oldid=68441 * WilliamRagstad * (+233)
12:10:52 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68443&oldid=68099 * Hex96 * (+15)
12:11:02 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68444&oldid=68443 * Hex96 * (-15)
12:11:34 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68445&oldid=68444 * Hex96 * (+15)
12:11:49 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68446&oldid=68445 * Hex96 * (-15)
12:17:56 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68447&oldid=68446 * Hex96 * (+1435)
12:18:05 <esowiki> [[()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68448&oldid=66180 * Fizzie * (+3) /* Instructions */ Adjust the odd alignment for the math part.
12:18:28 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68449&oldid=68447 * Hex96 * (+36) /* Hello, World! */
12:18:59 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68450&oldid=68442 * WilliamRagstad * (+4)
12:19:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68451&oldid=67985 * Palaiologos * (+276)
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13:36:14 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68452&oldid=67939 * CMinusMinus * (+74)
13:38:20 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68453&oldid=68452 * CMinusMinus * (-22)
14:34:41 <esowiki> [[Your]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68454&oldid=68148 * Hex96 * (+143) /* Examples */
14:41:43 <int-e> Some wiki spring cleaning would be nice.
14:42:32 <int-e> Pages like that are still preferable to spam.
14:46:17 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68455&oldid=68423 * WilliamRagstad * (+232) Added SSPS
14:51:36 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68456&oldid=68455 * WilliamRagstad * (+6)
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15:53:12 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68457&oldid=68414 * Palaiologos * (+1878) error troubleshooting with error reporting system pulled out of nightmares.
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17:29:46 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68458&oldid=68457 * Palaiologos * (+541)
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19:44:29 <imode> has anybody ever written a roguelike in `sed`, I wonder?
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20:46:47 <imode> better write one in thue.
20:46:54 <kspalaiologos> can you point me to another codebase though, because I can't come up with creative idea
20:48:43 <myname> idea: roguelike in befunge where you can manipulate the code
20:49:20 <imode> it's entirely possible.
20:49:28 <imode> you just need to build your way out of the tarpit.
20:50:25 <myname> it would be hard to make this in a way that's not completely broken, though
20:50:40 <myname> more like a baba is you, but with real code
20:51:13 <myname> that reminds me, i shuld continue playing rogue bit
20:57:05 <imode> kspalaiologos: https://git.imode.tech/?p=python/prime;a=blob;f=examples/picture.t;hb=HEAD
20:57:11 <imode> an example of 2D movement.
20:57:57 <kspalaiologos> possibly a more optimizing one towards the asm2bf patterns
21:04:21 <imode> been exploring string rewriting as a backend for Mode. don't know why I'm attracted to it.
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21:16:14 <imode> something about rule-based programming is attractive. very unlike structured programming.
21:17:06 <imode> it's hard to know where to start, though.
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21:26:30 <kspalaiologos> I'm planning to write a lisp compiler targeting my certain platform
21:26:57 <kspalaiologos> If you'd like to help me just a bit I would be thankful
21:27:04 <imode> what can I help with.
21:27:34 <kspalaiologos> Well I can get it up to the point of generating AST
21:43:00 <imode> hahaha, hell yeah. just wrote something that compares 2 binary strings.
21:43:30 <imode> https://hatebin.com/gemgrlrnry
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21:53:38 <imode> I am honestly surprised I was able to write that in one shot.
21:59:07 <imode> I swear this could be reduced to lesser states.
22:02:58 <imode> you trade runtime though.
22:09:55 <imode> kspalaiologos: sorry, not interested in doing codegen for your project.
22:10:00 <imode> too complicated for my tastes.
22:10:37 <kspalaiologos> I think I may be capable of doing it (like the most things) alone.
22:10:51 <imode> my philosophy about projects like this are that they're for an individual.
22:11:33 <imode> just that you'd know better about where you want to take your code than I would.
22:11:54 <kspalaiologos> I recently helped in developing a programming language, coincidentally a lisp like
22:12:44 <kspalaiologos> it really depends on what are you trying to do in the project
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22:13:51 <kspalaiologos> The reason I'm looking for help is because I don't feel confident in IR generation and optimizations on it
22:14:16 <imode> so don't optimize. what IR are you targeting? LLVM?
22:16:28 <imode> or is it your own IR that you're designing.
22:22:02 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68459&oldid=68450 * WilliamRagstad * (+305)
22:23:47 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68460&oldid=68459 * WilliamRagstad * (-60)
22:37:14 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68461&oldid=68460 * WilliamRagstad * (+133)
22:37:45 <esowiki> [[WordLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68462&oldid=68461 * WilliamRagstad * (+6)
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22:51:18 <kspalaiologos> @tell imode I want to target asm2bf, but I need some form of IR to switch the targets back and forth
23:02:23 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68463&oldid=68456 * WilliamRagstad * (+101) Swearsult
23:02:55 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68464&oldid=68463 * WilliamRagstad * (+55)
23:14:14 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68465&oldid=68458 * Palaiologos * (+353)
23:14:47 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68466&oldid=68465 * Palaiologos * (+0) Real publication/refurbishment date
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23:42:09 <kspalaiologos> imode: I want to target asm2bf, but I need some form of IR to switch the targets back and forth
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01:40:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sporeball * New user account
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01:59:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68467&oldid=68417 * Sporeball * (+313) added my introduction
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03:20:13 <oerjan> i wonder if sorlie will be pointing out that they cannot be so sure that what iafa did was _wrong_
03:43:51 <imode> kspalaiologos: not that familiar with asm2bf but if it's an assembly language built on top of BF, just do the stupidest possible thing first and worry about optimizations later.
03:43:55 <lambdabot> kspalaiologos said 4h 52m 37s ago: I want to target asm2bf, but I need some form of IR to switch the targets back and forth
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05:54:12 <oerjan> dimo is easy to please
06:00:12 <int-e> Did you know that the following problem is NP-complete: Given a candidate permutation network (like a sorting network, but rather than sorting, each building block is a conditional swap), and a target permutation, can the network produce that permutation?
06:03:52 <int-e> And I'm also lagging behind on comics. How did that happen...
06:04:22 <int-e> (I know how. A) I found some other things to tackle, including the above. B) I've been watching 36C3 videos.)
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07:24:53 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck, but every + is replaced with the bee movie script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68468&oldid=57881 * YamTokTpaFa * (+87)
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07:54:05 <FireFly> int-e: have you pondered attending congress? :p
07:56:56 <int-e> FireFly: Pondered, yes. But I'm too lazy.
07:57:21 <FireFly> mm... I wouldn't say to come for the talks, because you can watch the recordings (and everyone does that)... but the atmosphere and all is amazing in general
07:57:27 <FireFly> and conversations with people and stuff
07:59:33 <int-e> I've been to 28C3 and 27C3. It was exhilarating, but I didn't talk to people so it was also a bit of a waste.
08:00:49 <int-e> I did get an Arduino soldered and running at 28C3 though. So that's something.
08:01:17 * kmc wonders how many people in this channel have a ham radio license
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09:34:42 <\oren\> the suffix -hotic refers to the sound some letter makes in a language
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09:35:31 <\oren\> So one can say that the Spanish chotic is /θ/ in mainland spain but /s/ in much of latin america
09:36:34 <\oren\> while english chotics include /k/, /s/, /x/ and /tʃ/
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09:45:33 <Taneb> chotic being the sound a c makes in the given language?
10:23:33 <\oren\> by analogy with rhotic
10:25:02 <Taneb> "Castille" sounds a bit odd if you pronounce it with a θ
10:33:21 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68469&oldid=68466 * Palaiologos * (+2)
10:33:47 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68470&oldid=68469 * Palaiologos * (-10) Not an category.
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10:35:40 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68471&oldid=68470 * Palaiologos * (+168) Categories bar
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10:50:27 <esowiki> [[Backhand]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68472 * Jo King * (+8534) Created page
10:53:48 <esowiki> [[It Online]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68473&oldid=68268 * Jo King * (-36) replaced external link with internal one
10:59:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68474&oldid=68429 * Jo King * (+15) added Backhand
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11:29:48 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68475&oldid=68471 * Palaiologos * (+3108)
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13:03:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backhand]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68476 * Hex96 * (+38) Created page with "is there an interpeter on tio.run yet?"
13:04:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backhand]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68477&oldid=68476 * Hex96 * (+21)
13:10:07 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68478 * Hex96 * (+528) Created page with "langlang is an esolang which just does what you tell it to do. note that there are alot of ways to do the same thing. ==Examples== ===Hello World=== <pre> say "Hello, World!..."
13:10:32 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68479&oldid=68410 * Hex96 * (+15) /* List of esolangs */
13:10:57 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68480&oldid=68321 * Hex96 * (+76) /* Challenge answers */
13:46:39 <b_jonas> how was your christmas, fungot?
13:46:40 <fungot> b_jonas: especially if you wait to be taught to talk anymore
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14:15:50 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68481&oldid=68478 * A * (+24)
14:22:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backhand]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68482&oldid=68477 * A * (+201)
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14:26:07 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68483&oldid=68481 * A * (+66)
14:26:23 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68484&oldid=68483 * A * (+12) /* Truth-Machine */
14:27:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68485&oldid=36177 * A * (+255)
14:32:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68486&oldid=68485 * A * (-255) Umm, this is the same page...
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15:47:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MadisonSilver * New user account
15:52:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68487&oldid=68467 * MadisonSilver * (+387) Adding my introduction.
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19:58:37 <int-e> . o O ( I expect one is a bot, one is genuinely interested, and one is a person everybody despises, like A. )
20:19:53 <fizzie> Three people have starred fungot too; at least one's an #esoteric-er, no idea what's up with the other two.
20:19:53 <fungot> fizzie: retrieving body 61 of 61 from fnord, his race, his language, his homeland and origin, his faith or his religious or political opinions.
20:20:19 <fizzie> fungot: Those sort of details don't really show up in GitHub profiles.
20:20:20 <fungot> fizzie: some fnord use source port 0 are true
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20:34:21 <fizzie> Don't expect a lot of updates
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20:43:19 <esowiki> [[Naz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68488 * Sporeball * (+4870) create naz page
20:52:08 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68489&oldid=68488 * Sporeball * (+108) add category tags
20:55:26 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68490&oldid=68474 * Sporeball * (+10) add naz to the language list
21:15:45 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68491&oldid=67522 * Sporeball * (+194) add naz's hello world program
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21:23:36 <HackEso> 1279) <ais523> (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO)
21:23:37 <HackEso> il//An il is a cohelix of pper wire.
21:24:10 <HackEso> A w is everything a cow isn't.
21:24:17 <HackEso> A w is everything a cow isn't.
21:24:23 <HackEso> A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees Celsius.
21:24:40 <esowiki> [[User:Sporeball]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68492 * Sporeball * (+106) create my user page
21:24:42 <HackEso> boring//Boring means of little interest, unless it is done to pigs.
21:28:38 <b_jonas> @run fmap (\x -> shift (x * (x + 1)) (-1)) [0 .. 34]
21:28:40 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,2...
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21:29:26 <b_jonas> @run fmap (\x -> shiftR (x * (x + 1)) 1) [0 .. 34]
21:29:28 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,2...
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22:23:35 <b_jonas> fungot, how many hearts do you need to obtain the Master Sword?
22:23:35 <fungot> b_jonas: i don't know how debian handles it, sorry :))
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23:06:27 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68493&oldid=68415 * JonoCode9374 * (+346)
23:24:20 <zzo38> I played GURPS game yesterday (twice). I connected a Raspberry Pi computer to a television set at a hotel, but when it is connected, the remote control doesn't work. Do you know why? Is it related to HDMI-CEC somehow?
23:28:40 <b_jonas> did the remote control work while the computer isn't connected to the television? was there a clear line of sight between the led of the remote control and the IR sensor on the television?
23:31:30 <zzo38> Yes, If the computer is not connected, the remote control worked, and there is a clear line of sight either way (even, there is a light on the TV set that flashed so clearly the signal was received, but failed to do anything about it). There is also one switch on the TV set itself, but it doesn't work, regardless of what is connected on the back.
23:40:09 <b_jonas> fungot, have you ever tried to encode a hidden message in your replies, like via steganography or acrosticon?
23:40:09 <fungot> b_jonas: ( box-set! a-box " hi")
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00:14:42 <esowiki> [[User:BrainF99]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68494&oldid=68149 * BrainF99 * (-159)
00:19:25 <esowiki> [[10Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68495&oldid=68408 * BrainF99 * (+140)
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00:23:49 <fizzie> I think that reply had the hidden message "hi" cleverly concealed within it.
00:35:40 <zzo38> We were trying to go into the wizard's tower, but there was no friction on the roof so we keep falling down, and the windows have some kind of magical force field. But we were able to break the force field with arrows, and then go in and not only the magic orb we needed, but there are also books in there, which was helpful since we can use that information to disable most of the clay golems even though we are not near them.
00:35:57 <zzo38> Here is I wrote it in the computer: http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+26 Do you like this?
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03:17:18 <zzo38> Even though people have said that targets in a cost in Magic: the Gathering will not work, and it is certainly not designed to do this, I think it does work (if it is a spell or a activated ability other than a mana ability); for example if it says "{T}, Destroy target creature: You gain 2 life." then you won't gain 2 life if the target creature is successfully destroyed. Since the targets are chosen before the cost is paid, it might work.
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05:57:34 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68496&oldid=68480 * JonoCode9374 * (+169) /* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */
06:02:46 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68497&oldid=68293 * JonoCode9374 * (+206)
06:09:42 <esowiki> [[Ekg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68498 * JonoCode9374 * (+2878) A little something I'm working on
06:10:08 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68499&oldid=68497 * JonoCode9374 * (+0) /* Languages I'm working on */
06:11:13 <zzo38> If a map or dictionary contains a false entry for a copyright trap, then what will happen if the other people who read it then make it true? Such as, if there is a nonexistent street, build that street; if a dictionary contains a made up word, start using that word a lot.
06:11:16 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68500&oldid=68493 * JonoCode9374 * (+102)
06:21:06 <zzo38> Wiktionary also lists the word "malamorous", which doesn't mention anything about a copyright trap, but says that the word is not used anywhere, only being listed in a book titled "1000 Words You Should Use More Often".
06:34:45 <kingoffrance> there's an obi wan street; i suppose they like advertising
06:36:22 <zzo38> Maybe, but that isn't what I meant. I meant when they put false streets in a map to detect those who make copies of the map and violate their copyright. If the street actually exists, then the map will be correct that such excuse might not count.
06:38:31 <zzo38> (Or in the case of a dictionary, the case for including it in other dictionaries if it is commonly in use may be even stronger, so it is a real fact and they might not be able to sue them for copyright violation if the word is in use since a fact in a dictionary is presumably uncopyrightable.)
06:39:51 <kingoffrance> i was wondering what you meant by "coyright trap" yeah i have heard of such
06:40:44 <kingoffrance> some mayor sees it, decides they will call somewhere "new malamorous city" not knowing the original doesn't actually exist :)
06:44:10 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose something like that can happen, although that isn't what I meant either, unless the new city is built in the same place where the original presumably (but actually isn't) was.
07:13:38 <kingoffrance> surely you will invent a word for such an occasion
07:47:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: then the word will no longer work as a copyright trap after that
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07:51:20 <kingoffrance> malamorous if it means what i suppose, sounds to me like glamorous i.e. deception; although modern connotations is perhaps reversed, i.e. shining star to follow rather than "blinding light gypsy trickery"
07:51:45 <kingoffrance> i was thinking "mal" + "amorous" but glamorous actually makes sense to me, if that is what it is getting at
07:51:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: there was a different case for copyright trap that I was considering. some bus companies here publish their official bus timetable in a format that is hard to use,
07:52:23 <kingoffrance> i would be curious who/how they made up "malamorous"
07:53:09 <b_jonas> so there's a market for more usable digital timetables on the internet. in such a timetable, you can put a copyright trap by nudging the stop time of a single bus in a small station forward by a minute. that's easy to detect when someone copies your presentation, and won't affect users much.
07:55:09 <kingoffrance> (i.e. even if malamorous was a bogus word, how did they come up with its meaning, etc.)
07:55:25 <kingoffrance> cuz they had to somewhat make it sound real, unless it was just in a list without any def.
07:57:10 <zzo38> I don't know if maybe the author of the book just made it up because they hoped someone might use it.
07:59:29 <b_jonas> in the case of a database where the individual items are under public domain but your compilation is protected by database right (a dictionary is a stronger example than that, you could consider artefacts in a museum, or works of art of a famous musician, or books in a library), another way to add a copyright trap is to omit the entry for an item that definitely exists
08:01:22 <zzo38> Yes; and if they do that then you can complain to them about an item is missing.
08:03:37 <kingoffrance> thats good, because you just add it and remove something else
08:04:53 <zzo38> If they do just add it and remove something else, and then repeat the complaint about the new missing item, and so on, then eventually they will have a bad reputation, I think.
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08:39:14 <b_jonas> suppose I have a photo that I want to publish on a website in jpeg format. the website is a proper one that lets me publish the jpeg file byte to byte without changes, not eg. facebook or twitter. before publishing, I want to put a metadata field into the file that contains the website url where the published image and its description will be found when I publish, so that if someone downloads the file,
08:39:20 <b_jonas> they have a backlink. what metadata field should I use for that? I was trying to look at descriptions of IPTC but they're so arcane I couldn't find the right field. I don't insist on IPTC in particular, but I do insist on JPEG as the container.
08:49:17 <b_jonas> this is for when I can predict a direct url on the website, such as on Mediawiki wikis, as opposed to websites that only allow urls with a random id (or a crypto checksum) in them
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08:52:29 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know
09:07:29 <Taneb> Does anyone ever use those suggested repo names that GitHub gives you
09:08:14 <Taneb> I don't know if I count bots in "anyone"
09:08:20 <int-e> I didn't even know github did that.
09:08:59 <Taneb> "Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about psychic-octo-robot?"
09:09:34 <int-e> When I create a repo on github I always have a name in mind already.
09:10:27 <int-e> So as long as it's not obnoxious about making suggestions I will not notice that they're even there.
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09:43:01 <kingoffrance> but devs hopefully it will taste like disgust/trying too hard/etc. :/
09:43:28 <kingoffrance> i dunno, maybe they think that is what it takes :/
09:44:39 <kingoffrance> if they used hyphens instead of underscores, that makes compatibility with dns/hostnames slightly better, ill give them that
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09:45:26 <wib_jonas> argh! someone broke a foot of my office keyboard
09:50:57 <int-e> . o O ( Feet of Clay )
09:51:07 <Taneb> kingoffrance: these predate MS buying GitHub by a long time
09:53:27 <kingoffrance> it could be a "just code, dont worry about name, you can change later" thing, meant to inspire in that manner
09:54:00 <kingoffrance> but names keep things focussed IMO, so are important too
09:56:22 <Taneb> kingoffrance: on another note, for important reasons I will leave unexplained, I will ask, do you have hair?
09:58:16 <int-e> . o O ( Is the h silent? )
10:00:46 <Taneb> . o O ( Would you like it to be? That power is yours, int-e )
10:09:48 <int-e> Ugh, but I don't want all that responsibility.
10:10:01 <int-e> I suppose I'd rather run out of hair than air.
10:10:38 <int-e> But I'm not french.
10:11:25 <int-e> wib_jonas: No, in "hair".
10:12:03 <int-e> 'oo cares about git'ub?
10:13:36 <Taneb> GitHub: it's like PornHub but with gits instead of porn
10:19:03 <int-e> Has xkcd ever done an xkcd on how there's an xkcd on everything, except on xkcd?
10:23:35 <wib_jonas> I don't think so. There's https://www.xkcd.com/1000/ on how there are a lot of xkcd comics, and https://www.xkcd.com/442/ and https://www.xkcd.com/207/ are other strips about xkcd, but I don't think either of those matches what you ask
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10:34:02 <wib_jonas> fungot, what is a "gravity cell", and is it a sci-fi thing?
10:34:03 <fungot> wib_jonas: tc as fnord describe it is " the incredible slowness". it is kind of mind bending so it's always square just at the scheme workshop.
10:35:07 <int-e> burn, scheme, burn
10:37:32 <kingoffrance> that sounds like a squidbillies reference Taneb
10:39:34 <Taneb> kingoffrance: it was not directly a squidbillies reference, as I don't know what squidbillies is
10:55:06 <Taneb> As I said, my reasons will remain unexplained
10:55:11 <Taneb> Can you answer the question?
10:56:26 <wib_jonas> I think it's one of those robot test captcha things like https://www.xkcd.com/233/ , because mammals have hairs but robots don't.
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12:18:56 <kingoffrance> i can answer it yes, but "where" and "whose" seem pertinent
12:19:07 <kingoffrance> i dont collect hair or anything :/ im not a freak
12:22:20 <kingoffrance> captchas will fail because they assume people cant be programmed
12:23:43 <kingoffrance> its a question "which programming do people have" seems more pertinent IMO
12:24:09 <kingoffrance> and "where did they get it" and "is that the programming they want" :/
13:28:39 <wib_jonas> UTC New Year is an hour after New Year. We should celebrate it and watch https://esolangs.org/logs/ change
13:33:28 <HackEso> The password of the month is naughty.
13:35:57 <int-e> I have priorities ;)
13:36:27 <int-e> (Though honestly... I expect to be in bed.)
13:45:01 <wib_jonas> will you change the password to "choking insurgent dogsled penetrate" at midnight?
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13:48:05 <int-e> most assuredly not
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13:49:03 <wib_jonas> fungot, what will the password for next month be?
13:49:03 <fungot> wib_jonas: only if lambda is a macro
13:55:01 <int-e> wib_jonas: it may be better if somebody else picks the POTM, honestly. I'll just end up with something like "The password of the month is resolute."
13:56:00 <fungot> wib_jonas: like number42 said. and still have it
14:10:19 <wib_jonas> Australia east coast is already in the new year
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15:37:30 <HackEso> Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
15:38:29 <bunnyocto> blsq ) %foo={{{{1 2 3} {9?*}}{{1 2 4}{8?*}}}/_} 1 2 4 %foo! 1 2 3 %foo!Cl{1 2 32 1 2 27}
15:38:36 <bunnyocto> blsq ) %foo={{{{1 2 3} {9?*}}{{1 2 4}{8?*}}}/_} 1 2 4 %foo! 1 2 3 %foo!Cl{1 2 32 1 2 27}
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15:40:03 <kspalaiologos> or maybe an article online, have you got any of these?
15:40:07 <bunnyocto> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque
15:42:47 <esowiki> [[Blsq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68501 * B jonas * (+23) Redirected page to [[Burlesque]]
15:43:48 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: it's a golf language built in Haskell with a large standard library
15:44:03 <bunnyocto> it's a piece of shit built in haskell
15:44:06 <wib_jonas> and a documentation that is somewhat vague
15:44:25 <bunnyocto> like it can do chisquaretests and shit
15:44:32 <wib_jonas> its syntax is made of mostly two-character builtins
15:44:41 <bunnyocto> basically the stuff that I needed to do during my studies 8 years ago or something
15:44:42 <wib_jonas> but it has a few one-character keywords too
15:45:55 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: there are examples in the channel logs
15:46:17 <bunnyocto> No but there's a link to the golf site which has more examples.
15:46:47 <bunnyocto> kspalaiologos: http://golf.shinh.org/l.rb?blsq
15:47:42 <bunnyocto> also you're talking to the madlad inventing it so any questions you have I can answer :D
15:47:56 <bunnyocto> there's not a single person on the planet who knows more about blsq than me :D
15:48:17 <bunnyocto> it also has support for concurrency/multithreading
15:48:36 <kspalaiologos> why would you add mysql support to an esoteric language
15:48:51 <bunnyocto> so you can plug it up to your mysql database and do your data analysis in BLSQ like a manic pro
15:49:00 <kspalaiologos> . O ( bruh, this json formatter in brainfuck is haunting me )
15:49:32 <bunnyocto> I spent years in mental institutions
15:50:15 <bunnyocto> I can also tell you lot of stuff about psychiatry
15:51:04 <kspalaiologos> that might be the most random thing I heard by the end of this decade
15:51:16 <bunnyocto> lots of free time in the asylum so
15:51:49 <bunnyocto> can't have a job in an asylum now can you
15:52:05 <bunnyocto> also used to be homeless for a while
15:52:15 <bunnyocto> i was living on park benches for a while
15:53:03 <wib_jonas> bunnyocto: wait, so you're the same esolanger as the one who created blsq, but under a different nick?
15:54:05 <bunnyocto> that one has all I/O commands disabled of course.
15:56:27 <HackEso> 1280) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
15:56:43 <bunnyocto> !blsq fancy def double: \2 \?* end end 8 %double!
15:57:20 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
15:57:34 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
15:57:57 <HackEso> `fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
15:57:58 <bunnyocto> !blsq fancy def double: 2 \?* end def main: double(8) end end %main!
15:58:06 <kspalaiologos> `fetch asmbf-1.2.6 https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/master.zip
15:58:11 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.6’ (File too large).
15:58:16 <bunnyocto> that basically defines a function double and main and invokes double(8)
15:58:46 <kspalaiologos> `fetch asmbf-1.2.6.zip https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/master.zip
15:58:48 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.6.zip’ (File too large).
15:59:02 <kspalaiologos> `fetch /hackenv/asmbf-1.2.6.zip https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/master.zip
15:59:04 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/asmbf-1.2.6.zip’ (File too large).
15:59:17 <wib_jonas> funnyocto: (1) that doesn't look like blsq syntax, because blsq keywords are two characters long, those are longer; (2) you can't call a function "double", that's a keyword.
15:59:32 <HackEso> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on \ none 24733776 14622324 8841948 63% /bin \ none 1026028 0 1026028 0% /dev \ none 24733776 14622324 8841948 63% /lib \ tmpfs 126192 0 126192 0% /tmp \ none 24733776 14622324 8841948 63% /usr \ none 24733776 14622324 8841948 63% /sbin \ none 24733776 14622324 8841948 63%
15:59:33 <bunnyocto> http://codepad.org/2Ui5N9Ve wib_jonas
15:59:54 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cimport numpy; print(numpy.double([1]))
16:00:05 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
16:00:27 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:01:56 <HackEso> 52./asmbf-1.1.1/doc \ 28./asmbf-1.1.1/examples \ 12./asmbf-1.1.1/test \ 8./asmbf-1.1.1/.github/workflows \ 12./asmbf-1.1.1/.github \ 84./asmbf-1.1.1/bin \ 548./asmbf-1.1.1 \ 1012./paste \ 1648.
16:01:58 <bunnyocto> !blsq fancy def double: \begin lisp (?* 2) end lisp end def main: \begin lisp (double 8) end lisp end end %main!
16:02:09 <HackEso> 4040../lib/p7zip-16.02 \ 10732../lib \ 24../interps/dimensifuck \ 60../interps/adjust \ 72../interps/egobf/src/.deps \ 40../interps/egobf/src/c2m/tests \ 16../interps/egobf/src/c2m/i386 \ 60../interps/egobf/src/c2m \ 824../interps/egobf/src \ 48../interps/egobf/scripts \ 1248../interps/egobf \ 44../interps/bf_txtgen \ 12../interps/whirl \ 252../interps/clc-intercal/CLC-INTERCAL-Docs-1.-94.-2/doc/html \ 96../interps/clc-intercal/
16:02:56 <bunnyocto> http://codepad.org/gDpNNn3P <- also perfectly valid blsq code
16:03:39 <kspalaiologos> `fetch asmbf-1.2.6.zip http://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/master.zip
16:03:41 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.6.zip’ (File too large).
16:04:41 <kspalaiologos> `fetch asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.2.7.tar.gz
16:04:44 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz’ (File too large).
16:05:09 <HackEso> `fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
16:05:21 <esowiki> [[Tplntivhtpaavwtpi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68502 * Hex96 * (+212) Created page with "This is an esolang by [[User:Hex96|Hex]] which you write <code>1</code> and gets the amount of 1s, converts it to decimal and converts to binary which is the code. The code..."
16:05:28 <kspalaiologos> `fetch https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.2.7.tar.gz
16:05:30 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘v1.2.7.tar.gz’ (File too large).
16:05:47 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68503&oldid=68479 * Hex96 * (+24) /* List of esolangs */
16:06:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68504&oldid=68490 * Hex96 * (+24) /* T */
16:06:34 <HackEso> 2019-12-31 16:06:33 URL:http://example.com/index.html [1256/1256] -> "index.html" [1]
16:06:43 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin lisp (sv {_+} "cnat") (sv {0!!} "fst") (fst (cnat {1 2} {3 4})) end lisp
16:06:49 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ index.html \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ v1.2.7.tar.gz
16:06:55 <HackEso> sudo: effective uid is not 0, is /usr/bin/sudo on a file system with the 'nosuid' option set or an NFS file system without root privileges?
16:07:11 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ v1.2.7.tar.gz
16:07:12 <bunnyocto> you probably don't want to know about begin asm do you?
16:07:52 <kspalaiologos> ` fetch https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.2.7.tar.gz
16:08:17 <bunnyocto> in addition to the lisp and fancy modes
16:08:50 -!- FreeFull has joined.
16:08:55 <kspalaiologos> `fetch /tmp/what.tar.gz https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.2.7.tar.gz
16:08:56 <HackEso> In another world: /tmp/what.tar.gz
16:09:08 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:09:11 <kspalaiologos> `fetch /hackenv/tmp/what.tar.gz https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.2.7.tar.gz
16:09:13 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/what.tar.gz’ (File too large).
16:09:21 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ f \ factor \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ karma.orig \ karma.rej \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ stuff \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
16:09:32 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ v1.2.7.tar.gz \ what.tar.gz
16:09:46 <kspalaiologos> why does it show this message if it's actually there
16:09:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68505&oldid=68496 * Hex96 * (+129)
16:10:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68506&oldid=68505 * Hex96 * (+78) /* Other Chat and questions */
16:10:21 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ v1.2.7.tar.gz \ what.tar.gz
16:10:24 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ v1.2.7.tar.gz \ what.tar.gz
16:10:38 <HackEso> tar (child): what.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ tar: Child returned status 2 \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
16:11:07 <HackEso> tar (child): v1.2.7.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ tar: Child returned status 2 \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
16:11:31 <HackEso> tar (child): /hackenv/tmp/v1.2.7.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ tar: Child returned status 2 \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
16:11:38 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ v1.2.7.tar.gz \ what.tar.gz
16:11:53 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ f \ factor \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ karma.orig \ karma.rej \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ stuff \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
16:12:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Your]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68507&oldid=68154 * Hex96 * (+142)
16:14:11 <esowiki> [[Your]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68508&oldid=68454 * Hex96 * (+128)
16:17:42 <bunnyocto> !blsq begin asm clr r0 end asm %r0?
16:17:58 -!- blsqbot has quit (Quit: Exiting).
16:19:11 <bunnyocto> so we can all enjoy doing our mov r0, r1; inc r0; mul r2, r3;
16:19:19 <bunnyocto> forwhatever reason you'd ever need to do that in blsq but
16:19:53 <bunnyocto> I want it to be a language where people look at it and say "What the FUCKING FUCK is this FUCKING shit"
16:21:35 <bunnyocto> that's the reason it has MySQL support
16:23:21 <bunnyocto> 1 1{?i}C~ is a generator that produces 1..infinity
16:25:09 <bunnyocto> 0 1{3?+}C~[-1+] is a generator for multiples of 3, to infinity
16:27:27 <bunnyocto> I'm seriously going to write an IRC bot in burlesque
16:29:28 <bunnyocto> it has the concept of chans and async events and shit
16:29:57 <bunnyocto> it's grown up, it's a fully fledged language.
16:30:24 -!- bunnyocto has quit (Quit: see you in blsq town).
16:30:50 -!- heroux has joined.
16:40:51 -!- stux|away has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:42:55 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:50:05 -!- stux|away has joined.
16:51:34 <int-e> fungot: can you do symbolic integration, twh
16:51:34 <fungot> int-e: maybe i'll search for files named like ubuntu's already existing layouts. and then the rest comes naturally. no one
16:56:10 -!- imode has joined.
16:58:41 -!- b_jonas has joined.
16:59:36 <b_jonas> arseniiv_: as our channel somehow doesn't seem to have australian regulars, you're probably in the easternmost known timezone, so I'll have to ask you to open the #esoteric new year celebrations at your new year
16:59:53 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
17:00:37 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks :) This will be two houes later
17:01:08 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, I just want to warn you early
17:01:27 <b_jonas> imode-ruby: who? the nonexistant australian?
17:03:46 <arseniiv> imode-ruby: actually I’m quite wet, I can’t do anything with wet hands issue every time after I washed them too much in something like a shampoo e. g. being in a bath
17:04:50 <arseniiv> and this is very inconvenient and it lasts hours
17:06:16 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: people use Dyalog APL and Arthur Whitney's K APL-like, together with databases, for work in finance. and tswett just said that he wants to start working in finance, maybe you can talk to them and tell them why that's a bad idea.
17:09:53 <fizzie> kspalaiologos: Re your question about tar, when you use ` you're passing just one command-line argument, so your filenames have an extra space in them.
17:10:17 <fizzie> You can see that in the error message: "tar (child): what.tar.gz: Cannot open" -- see the double space there?
17:10:42 <HackEso> \ gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file \ tar: Unexpected EOF in archive \ tar: Unexpected EOF in archive \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
17:10:53 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.6.zip \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ v1.2.7.tar.gz \ what.tar.gz
17:11:15 <HackEso> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ f \ factor \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ karma.orig \ karma.rej \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ stuff \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
17:11:34 <fizzie> There's a 10-megabyte size limit as well, just in general for everything running on it. Is this file larger than that?
17:11:55 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
17:12:38 <fizzie> (Apparently not. Hmm, weird.)
17:13:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: could it be a confusion about tmp and writing the version-controlled parts?
17:14:31 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you don't need the -z option for tar extraction these days by the way, unless you're reading a non-seekable archive
17:15:07 <fizzie> I don't know if wget might be doing something odd for the case where the webserver doesn't specify a Content-Length. Sounds unlikely though.
17:15:36 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, that's how one of my older friends teached me
17:15:38 <b_jonas> ``` zcat /hackenv/tmp/v1.2.7.tar.gz | wc -c
17:15:39 <fizzie> (GitHub's archive download doesn't specify one, maybe because they might end up making it on the fly.)
17:15:40 <HackEso> gzip: /hackenv/tmp/v1.2.7.tar.gz: No such file or directory \ 0
17:16:06 <fizzie> Let's try downloading that one more time.
17:16:07 <fizzie> `fetch asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.2.7.tar.gz
17:16:12 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz’ (File too large).
17:16:16 <fizzie> `` ls -l asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz
17:16:17 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 10240 Dec 31 17:16 asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz
17:16:42 <fizzie> I think I maybe accidentally made the 10240 kilobytes 10240 bytes instead.
17:17:24 <fizzie> I did tweak the way those resource limits are set, maybe the units are different for setrlimit(2) vs. bash ulimit command.
17:17:29 <fizzie> I'll fix that in a bit, lunchtime now.
17:17:45 <fizzie> Well, or is it dinner? Some kind of food anyway.
17:17:54 <b_jonas> anyway, after that we may have some regulars in Finland, which is the +2 timezone, then a lot of regulars in Germany and Norway and me in the +1 timezone, then a lot of regulars in England plus HackEso and possibly someone in Iceland in the +0 timezone, and then of course the east coast Americans in the -5 timezone
17:18:36 <int-e> There's "brunch", there should be something for this as well. Though I suppose you just call it a late lunch.
17:18:46 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'print "a"x10241' > /hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd
17:18:58 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'print "a"x10241 or die "write $!"' > /hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd
17:19:03 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'print "a"x102400 or die "write $!"' > /hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd
17:19:38 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; s=/hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd; perl -e 'print "a"x1026000 or die "write $!"' >$s; ls -l "$s"
17:19:39 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 1026000 Dec 31 17:19 /hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd
17:19:52 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; s=/hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd; perl -e 'print "a"x1_200_000 or die "write $!"' >$s; ls -l "$s"
17:19:53 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 1200000 Dec 31 17:19 /hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd
17:20:01 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; s=/hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd; perl -e 'print "a"x12_000_000 or die "write $!"' >$s; ls -l "$s"
17:20:05 <fizzie> There's a restaurant called "Drunch" (a pizza/kebab kind of place) back in Helsinki.
17:20:14 <HackEso> bash: line 1: 54 File size limit exceededperl -e 'print "a"x12_000_000 or die "write $!"' > $s
17:20:20 <fizzie> b_jonas: `fetch is different though.
17:20:33 <fizzie> So looks like I've got the limits right in the sandbox, but not for fetch.
17:20:39 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; s=/hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd; ls -l "$s"
17:20:41 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 10485760 Dec 31 17:20 /hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd
17:20:43 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; s=/hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd; rm -v "$s"
17:20:44 <HackEso> removed '/hackenv/tmp/kVfyUkJd'
17:20:55 <fizzie> Apparently there's many restaurants called Drunch.
17:25:56 <int-e> I'm afraid the r comes from "brunch". :)
17:31:26 <b_jonas> the "Dr" comes from "drink" because you can order drinks in the restaurant
17:32:05 <b_jonas> oh heck, the "drun" comes from "drunk" because you can order so many drinks you end up getting drunk, and the "ch" comes from "cheap" because you can order those drinks cheap
17:37:56 <fizzie> `fetch asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/archive/v1.2.7.tar.gz
17:37:58 <HackEso> 2019-12-31 17:37:57 URL:https://codeload.github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/tar.gz/v1.2.7 [41301] -> "/hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz" [1]
17:38:01 <fizzie> `` ls -l asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz
17:38:09 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 41301 Dec 31 17:37 asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz
17:38:47 <HackEso> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
17:40:27 <fizzie> `fetch too-big-file http://ftp.funet.fi/pub/linux/kernel/v5.x/linux-5.4.tar.xz
17:40:29 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/too-big-file’ (File too large).
17:40:32 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 10485760 Dec 31 17:40 too-big-file
17:41:00 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: fizzie fixed fetch
17:41:19 <HackEso> asmbf-1.1.1 \ asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
17:41:28 <HackEso> cd? No such file or directory
17:42:00 <HackEso> tar (child): asmbf-1.2.7: Cannot read: Is a directory \ tar (child): At beginning of tape, quitting now \ tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ \ gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file \ tar: Child returned status 2 \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
17:42:14 <HackEso> AUTHORS \ INSTALL \ LICENSE \ Makefile \ NEWS \ README \ VERSIONING \ bconv.c \ bfasm.asm \ bfasm.b
17:42:30 <HackEso> make: *** No rule to make target 'bfasm', needed by 'all'. Stop.
17:42:35 <fizzie> That might be an incomplete thing.
17:42:48 <fizzie> I only fixed `fetch, I didn't re-uncompress the thing.
17:42:50 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'bfasm.c': No such file or directory
17:43:19 <HackEso> ``ls? No such file or directory
17:43:22 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
17:43:36 <HackEso> bfintd.c: In function 'main': \ bfintd.c:111:51: warning: format '%d' expects argument of type 'int', but argument 2 has type 'long int' [-Wformat=] \ printf("Access Violation, ip=%d", ip); \ ~^ ~~ \ %ld \ bfintd.c:166:27: warning: format '%X' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 3 has type 'long int' [-Wf
17:44:00 <HackEso> bconv \ bfasm \ bfi \ bfi-rle \ bfintd \ bfmake \ bfpp \ derle.pl \ labels.pl \ strip.pl
17:44:42 <HackEso> welcome \ welcome \ \ \ \ echo \ ! \ " \ # \ ' \ ( \ ,1 \ ,2 \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ <command> \ ? \ ?? \ ?h \ ?hh \ @ \ CaT \ CoInS \ Eternity \ FireFlist \ No \ ReLcOmE \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ Welcome \ ^.^ \ ` \ `^ \ `` \ `̀ \ aaaaaaaaa \ acronym \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ addwhatis \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ al
17:45:03 <kspalaiologos> can I make another directory for all that my garbage?
17:45:12 <b_jonas> especially in lib or share
17:45:18 <HackEso> mkdir: cannot create directory '/hackenv/bin/bfasm': File exists
17:45:35 <HackEso> ./ \ ../ \ c++decl* \ cdecl@ \ frink* \ frink.jar \ interp \ karma* \ morse-decode* \ p7zip-16.02/
17:45:37 <b_jonas> ``` ls -abF /hackenv/share
17:45:38 <HackEso> ./ \ ../ \ 8ballreplies \ Complaints.mp3 \ UnicodeData.txt \ WordData/ \ airports.dat \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ ballreplies \ candide* \ cat \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl* \ delvs-master/ \ dict/ \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ headers \ headers.gch \ hello* \ lua/ \ maimer \ maimery \ maze* \ mtg/ \ nothp \ recipe/ \ scapegoats \ scowrevs \ sedtest \ unic.txt \ units.dat \ usercmds \ whatis \ wisdom@
17:45:40 <b_jonas> ``` ls -abF /hackenv/libexec
17:45:41 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/hackenv/libexec': No such file or directory
17:46:13 <kspalaiologos> ``` cp -rf /hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.7/bin/* /hackenv/bin/bfasm/*
17:46:15 <HackEso> cp: target '/hackenv/bin/bfasm/*' is not a directory
17:46:20 <fizzie> A directory as /hackenv/bin/bfasm will prevent you from having a command `bfasm though.
17:46:48 <b_jonas> I recommend creating it under /hackenv/lib instead
17:47:07 <HackEso> mkdir: invalid option -- 'f' \ Try 'mkdir --help' for more information.
17:47:23 <kspalaiologos> ``` cp -rf /hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.7/bin/* /hackenv/lib/kps/*
17:47:24 <HackEso> cp: target '/hackenv/lib/kps/*' is not a directory
17:47:27 <kspalaiologos> ``` cp -rf /hackenv/tmp/asmbf-1.2.7/bin/* /hackenv/lib/kps/
17:48:10 <HackEso> bash: cls: command not found
17:48:13 <HackEso> bconv \ bfasm \ bfi \ bfi-rle \ bfintd \ bfmake \ bfpp \ derle.pl \ labels.pl \ strip.pl
17:48:30 <HackEso> bash: kps/bfasm: No such file or directory
17:48:39 <HackEso> bash: kpsbfasm: command not found
17:49:00 <kspalaiologos> seems like the path doesn't work like I expected it to
17:49:15 <fizzie> It's not really all that feasible to have foo/bar commands, because of the way path lookups work.
17:49:28 <HackEso> print_args_or_input "$@" |tr / \\n | labels.pl | bfasm
17:49:41 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
17:50:00 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/
17:50:14 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/bin/asmbf
17:50:17 <fizzie> Just FYI, I don't think I've fixed the `fetch commands output by `edit.
17:54:19 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you can put symlinks or wrappers in bin, even if the bulk of the stuff is installed under libexec or elsewhere
17:54:26 <b_jonas> (yes, I know we don't yet have a libexec)
17:58:47 <fizzie> Okay, fixed `edit, at least provisionally.
17:59:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: the encoding problem or the url problem of `edit ?
17:59:14 <fizzie> No, just the `fetch command samples.
17:59:24 <fizzie> So I guess the url problem, right.
18:00:17 <fizzie> The encoding problem probably involves a little more understanding than the filename problem.
18:03:43 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
18:13:49 <arseniiv> they say Betelgeuse dimmed to a degree
18:14:44 <b_jonas> arseniiv: because of the collapsing Hrung disaster?
18:21:59 <b_jonas> prepare the noisemakers and the new year sausage and lentils
18:25:56 <kspalaiologos> `fetch /hackenv/bin/asmbf https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/asmbf
18:25:58 <HackEso> 2019-12-31 18:25:57 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/asmbf [250/250] -> "/hackenv/bin/asmbf" [1]
18:27:01 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf "STK 2/ORG 0/TXT "Hello World!"/DB_ 0/@LOOP/RCL R2, R1/JZ_ R2, 0/OUT R2/INC R1/JMP %LOOP"
18:27:02 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 2: /hackenv/lib/kps/bfpp: Permission denied \ /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 3: /tmp/no-toucha-prgm.p: No such file or directory \ /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 3: /hackenv/lib/kps/strip.pl: Permission denied
18:27:54 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf "STK 2/ORG 0/TXT "Hello World!"/DB_ 0/@LOOP/RCL R2, R1/JZ_ R2, 0/OUT R2/INC R1/JMP %LOOP"
18:27:56 <HackEso> <stdin>:4:1: warning: missing terminating " character \ <stdin>:13:10: warning: missing terminating " character \ /hackenv/lib/kps/bfpp: line 6: /bin/labels.pl: No such file or directory \ /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 3: /tmp/no-toucha-prgm.p: No such file or directory
18:28:13 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf "STK 2/ORG 0/TXT \"Hello World!\"/DB_ 0/@LOOP/RCL R2, R1/JZ_ R2, 0/OUT R2/INC R1/JMP %LOOP"
18:28:15 <HackEso> <stdin>:4:1: warning: missing terminating " character \ <stdin>:6:6: warning: missing terminating " character \ <stdin>:13:10: warning: missing terminating " character \ /hackenv/lib/kps/bfpp: line 6: /bin/labels.pl: No such file or directory \ /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 3: /tmp/no-toucha-prgm.p: No such file or directory
18:28:38 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf STK 2/ORG 0/TXT "Hello World!"/DB_ 0/@LOOP/RCL R2, R1/JZ_ R2, 0/OUT R2/INC R1/JMP %LOOP
18:28:40 <HackEso> /hackenv/lib/kps/bfpp: line 6: /bin/labels.pl: No such file or directory \ /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 3: /tmp/no-toucha-prgm.p: No such file or directory
18:29:19 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
18:29:38 <kspalaiologos> `fetch /hackenv/lib/kps/bfpp https://hack.esolangs.org/get/lib/kps/bfpp
18:29:39 <HackEso> 2019-12-31 18:29:38 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/lib/kps/bfpp [305/305] -> "/hackenv/lib/kps/bfpp" [1]
18:29:41 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf STK 2/ORG 0/TXT "Hello World!"/DB_ 0/@LOOP/RCL R2, R1/JZ_ R2, 0/OUT R2/INC R1/JMP %LOOP
18:29:43 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 3: /tmp/no-toucha-prgm.p: No such file or directory
18:30:04 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
18:31:08 <kspalaiologos> `fetch /hackenv/bin/asmbf https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/asmbf
18:31:10 <HackEso> 2019-12-31 18:31:09 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/asmbf [298/298] -> "/hackenv/bin/asmbf" [1]
18:31:12 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf STK 2/ORG 0/TXT "Hello World!"/DB_ 0/@LOOP/RCL R2, R1/JZ_ R2, 0/OUT R2/INC R1/JMP %LOOP
18:31:13 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/asmbf: line 3: /hackenv/tmp/no-toucha-prgm.p: No such file or directory
18:33:04 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ just \ karma \ le \ no-toucha-prgm.asm.p \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.asm \ test.asm.p \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
18:33:41 <kspalaiologos> `fetch /hackenv/bin/asmbf https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/asmbf
18:33:42 <HackEso> 2019-12-31 18:33:41 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/asmbf [306/306] -> "/hackenv/bin/asmbf" [1]
18:33:45 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf STK 2/ORG 0/TXT "Hello World!"/DB_ 0/@LOOP/RCL R2, R1/JZ_ R2, 0/OUT R2/INC R1/JMP %LOOP
18:33:53 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[-]>++++++++[<+++++++++>-]>[-]>++++[<+++++>-]<[>+++++<-]>+[-<+>]>[-]>+++[<++++++>-]<[>++++++<-]>[-<+>]>[-]>+++[<++++++>-]<[>++++++<-]>[-<+>]>[-]>++++[<+++++>-]<++[>+++++<-]>+[-<+>]>[-]>+++++[<++++++>-]<++>>[-]>+++[<+++++>-]<++[>+++++<-]>++[-<+>]>[-]>++++[<+++++>-]<++[>+++++<-]>+[-<+>]>[-]>+++[<++++++>-]<+[>++++++<-]>[-<+>]>[-]>+++[<++++++>-]<[>++++++<-]>[-<+>]>[-]>++++[<+++++>-]<[>+++++<-]
18:51:39 <arseniiv> well I think I should start the celebration relay now as at 0:00 I would be occupied :D Happy NY, let our wishes fulfill themselves in as direct and unassisted manner as possible!
18:52:07 <b_jonas> launch the fireworks! cut the ribbons!
18:52:37 -!- ArthurStrong has left.
18:52:49 <int-e> I'd like to keep the fireworks imaginary... but no... people are not cooperative today.
18:54:11 <arseniiv> (let there be less celebratory injuries also as a separate thing, as they unfortunately are pretty common)
19:00:48 <b_jonas> Happy New Year to the +5 timezone
19:13:14 <zzo38> OK; I am in -8 timezone
19:13:53 <int-e> Hah. I might be awake again when you cross over.
19:20:30 <arseniiv> I find a lime-flavored Skittles in a cup of green tea appealing. I’ll try other flavors the other day
19:21:54 <arseniiv> maybe a real lemon slice would accompany them even better, though that won’t mix well with milk or ice cream
19:53:39 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> cut the ribbons! => done! https://i.postimg.cc/3xt7Bg3M/Screenshot-2100.png
20:02:20 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: we don't know, but we know which timezon
20:03:47 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: hehehe I won’t say while I’m sober :P
20:05:49 <arseniiv> btw timezones here are partly an irregular mess. At the start of twentieth century they were much more regular but then various regions conglomerated with one another for shady reasons
20:07:48 <arseniiv> yeah at least I’m glad I’m not too far from the “capital area”, due to centralization it’s way better to live nearer than somewhere near e. g. Pacific ocean. There are several large centers but they aren’t enough
20:12:28 -!- bunnyocto has joined.
20:12:46 <bunnyocto> also as an addendum to whatever somebody said sometime ago: blsq has variable length commands
20:12:51 <bunnyocto> there's no limit on the length of a command
20:13:02 <bunnyocto> there's a lower limit of 1 character though.
20:13:34 <bunnyocto> the empty string is a perfectly valid builtin
20:14:31 -!- blsqbot has joined.
20:15:02 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
20:15:27 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 12):
20:17:26 <bunnyocto> this way we bind create a userdefined command and bind it to the empty string
20:17:50 <bunnyocto> so trivially commands can have 0 or more characters.
20:19:52 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (abcdefgh)!
20:22:08 <b_jonas> welcome back, bunnyocto. in which timezone are you celebrating New Year?
20:22:57 <b_jonas> variable length commands. ok.
20:24:58 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: does blsq have mutable cells (things where you can copy the reference to the cell, assign values to it, and retrieve the value)? does it have logic programming style backtracking, and retractable and preserved assignments to cells (whether to the same kind of cell or different kinds doesn't matter)?
20:25:10 <b_jonas> I mean, that would make a multiparadigm language
20:28:29 <b_jonas> it can also be hard to implement
20:33:13 -!- moony has changed nick to notmoony.
20:34:24 <zzo38> But they don't use coffee in medieval English, I think.
20:40:07 -!- notmoony has changed nick to moony.
20:49:46 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: sure, if you have threading you could use those too, but I was thinking plain not too threadsafe variables at first, without threads
20:50:01 <b_jonas> haskell IO actually has those too under some name
20:50:15 <int-e> Hmm, MKun and MChan
20:50:17 <b_jonas> mostliy because they have the invariant of being always full
20:51:31 -!- bunnyocto19 has joined.
20:51:45 <bunnyocto19> well there's mcJ{}j+]{rc}fk2wc for example
20:51:59 <bunnyocto19> which creates a thread waiting for something to be written to the chan
20:52:42 -!- blsqbot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:52:57 -!- blsqbot has joined.
20:53:11 -!- bunnyocto has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:53:41 <b_jonas> bunnyocto19: are there cells (not just named variables) that you can read multiple times? ones you can assign multiple times as well?
20:55:01 <b_jonas> bunnyocto19: I want a function that allocates a new cell each time you call it, and returns a reference to it, and then you can pass around that reference like an ordinary value, and get the value or assign the value through that reference, and if you assign the value it doesn't affect other cells
20:55:47 <bunnyocto19> isn't an IORef just a chan with one value in it?
20:56:00 <b_jonas> with a chan, you can only retrieve the value once
20:56:10 <b_jonas> with an IORef, you can retreive the same value as many times as you want,
20:56:33 <b_jonas> or not retrieve it at all, but assign a new value and the next time you retrieve it you get the new value
20:56:38 <b_jonas> but I might not understand what chan you mean
21:03:18 <blsqbot> | --file <path> Read code from file (incl. STDIN)
21:03:18 <blsqbot> | --file-no-stdin <path> Read code from file (excl. STDIN)
21:03:42 <blsqbot> | __INTERNAL__:BlsqCell _CELL_
21:05:05 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:06:28 <bunnyocto19> but you mean more like an auto cell I guess
21:14:01 <esowiki> [[Naz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68509&oldid=68489 * Sporeball * (+16) /* Overview */
21:18:54 <b_jonas> bunnyocto19: if they're IORefs, that's fine
21:19:15 <zzo38> Now I wrote the second part (27)
21:22:05 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:22:12 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:22:57 <bunnyocto19> hm okay so the timeout here is less than 1 second
21:23:10 <bunnyocto19> but 5s_ was supposed to simulate a heavy computation
21:23:37 <bunnyocto19> so you can have a heavy computation and have it write the result to a chan while you do some other heavy computation in parallel
21:23:57 <bunnyocto19> what ever you can do in golang you can do in blsq I dare say
21:24:46 <bunnyocto19> not sure what I'll be needing them for but
21:25:46 <bunnyocto19> but haven't figured out a clever burlesque-ish way of doing it
21:27:07 <bunnyocto19> I was thinking of adding a wraparound datatype
21:27:18 <bunnyocto19> such that you can construct integers that wrap around at arbitrary numbers
21:30:55 <b_jonas> no it's not, because you have to implement like a hundred builtins that do arithmetic on them
21:31:07 <b_jonas> and many of them have two or three arguments, each of which can be various types
21:31:47 <b_jonas> plus you're committing to support it in future operations too
21:32:29 <b_jonas> nevertheless, this is burlesque, it has lots of features, so if you think it's useful, do implement it
21:34:31 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:35:22 <blsqbot> | __INTERNAL__:BlsqModInt 264 360
21:37:13 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:39:32 <bunnyocto19> but yeah... probably only supports +-/ and *
21:44:49 <bunnyocto19> of course not all built-ins will take this sort of integer
21:45:55 <bunnyocto19> b_jonas: you do know nobody is using this crap anyway right?
21:47:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (mc)!
21:49:30 -!- rodgort has joined.
21:51:19 <b_jonas> prepare for the New Year for the +02:00 timezone (Finland, Romania, Greece, Israel) in less than 10 minutes
21:51:45 <bunnyocto19> I'm reading this as blsq needs timezone types
21:58:07 <b_jonas> less than 2 minutes until New Year in the +02:00 timezone (Finland, Romania, Greece, Israel)
22:00:02 <b_jonas> Happy New Year for the +02:00 timezone (Finland, Romania, Greece, Israel)
22:01:53 <b_jonas> I don't remember who is in what timezone though
22:13:55 <bunnyocto19> wit OpenGL.blsq you can create pong in blsq
22:20:12 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:30:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
22:40:01 <b_jonas> prepare for New Year in the +01:00 timezone (Norway, Germany, France) in 20 minutes
22:40:17 <zzo38> The rules in GURPS for flying are similar to those for walking/running, but with double speed, and there is a minimum speed as well as maximum. But I should think the rules could be improved? Do you know how to make it better?
22:42:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: how is holding or lifting or dragging heavy items
22:42:36 <b_jonas> handled for flying that is
22:43:24 <zzo38> Same as for walking, although I think that isn't very good, and should be improved. I should think you cannot carry as much stuff while flying as walking is what I would expect, but that isn't how the rules is written.
22:43:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68510&oldid=68506 * JonoCode9374 * (+676) /* Other Chat and questions */
22:43:59 <zzo38> I wanted inventing SciRPS to do it better. (I set up a NNTP to discuss making up SciRPS, and also a Fossil repository with wiki)
22:45:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68511&oldid=68510 * JonoCode9374 * (+264) /* Other Chat and questions */
22:46:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68512&oldid=68511 * JonoCode9374 * (+223) /* Other Chat and questions */
22:49:08 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
22:49:19 <b_jonas> New Year for +01:00 timezone offset is coming up in 11 minutes. prepare the champange bottle and glasses, and the television or radio to watch the countdown, anthem, and the president's speech.
22:50:19 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, not today, I'll drink champagne with mirror and go to sleep minutes in
22:50:25 <esowiki> [[Ekg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68513&oldid=68498 * JonoCode9374 * (+1484)
22:50:55 <esowiki> [[Ekg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68514&oldid=68513 * JonoCode9374 * (+13) /* Very WIP Reference List */
22:51:34 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you're in the +01:00 timezone offset too?
23:01:07 <bunnyocto19> (I know the new year won't be happy but at least I'm gonna tell the old year to fuck off)
23:01:48 <bunnyocto19> probably going to have to go through benzowithdrawal from the PTSD I got from being abused in a mental hospital
23:05:27 <bunnyocto19> And I don't mean "security guard touched me. Abuse!" kind of abuse
23:06:41 <bunnyocto19> (there are always inpatients who threaten to sue hospital stuff for searching them because it's sexual abuse and what not)
23:06:56 <bunnyocto19> (some threaten to call the police and actually call the police but the police ain't showing up dude)
23:07:32 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:08:33 <bunnyocto19> the thing is this: procedure X on patients with Y is ok for as long as they actually have Y.
23:08:53 <bunnyocto19> procedure X on patients that really don't have Y is abuse.
23:09:18 <bunnyocto19> (kinda like amupating an arm isn't abuse if the arm needs to be amputated)
23:09:27 <bunnyocto19> (but it sorta is abuse if there's no medical reason to do so)
23:11:33 <bunnyocto19> (so suppose a doctor knows you don't have a certain disorder but derliberately schedules you for surgery for that disorder and you're being operated on... that's the sort of abuse I'm talking about)
23:12:45 <bunnyocto19> not sexual abuse, but pretty much physical abuse.
23:13:39 <bunnyocto19> and sure, "no harm done physically", just a scar from the op and stuff that comes with surgery
23:14:27 <b_jonas> president Áder wished Happy New Year after like the worst cheesy New Year speech I ever heard, and ended his speech. the New Year is officially open.
23:15:54 <b_jonas> in Denmark they call her a Queen, not a President
23:16:39 <bunnyocto19> I'm honstely not really a fan of royaldom.
23:16:51 <bunnyocto19> I get it - it's for tourism and tradition.
23:17:04 <bunnyocto19> But the principle behind it still is disgusting to me.
23:17:11 <bunnyocto19> But I'm way too much leaning leftwards so...
23:17:41 <bunnyocto19> I don't glorify remnants of human rights abuses.
23:18:39 <b_jonas> a mark? interesting question. well if you grep the list http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/telep.txt , you find a few town names starting with Mark or Márk, so yes.
23:19:21 <b_jonas> Kázsmárk, Markaz, Márkháza, Márkó, Markóc, Markotabödöge
23:20:02 <fungot> bunnyocto19: i should say. :p they even give you the top of the stack and explains them in terms of the separate branches.))
23:20:39 <fungot> bunnyocto19: that sounds pretty sexp to me
23:21:04 <LBPHacker> I look away for a moment and suddenly > Jászfelsőszentgyörgy
23:21:56 <LBPHacker> nah, but I'm a native so it stands out
23:21:56 <b_jonas> I think most queens could make better New Year speeches than *ahem* our two most recent presidents
23:22:59 <bunnyocto19> It has been a great year. Really great year. Was the greatest year. Just so great. We had some big things going, terrific, such big things.
23:22:59 <b_jonas> Trump could do too but he has the drawback of being a President in the wide sense, that is, he's also effectively a prime minister
23:23:13 <fungot> bunnyocto19: did you receive it, go ahead.
23:24:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
23:24:28 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
23:24:30 <b_jonas> bunnyocto19: I don't know, but there are already Trump speech generators on the web I believe
23:24:35 <fungot> bunnyocto19: dude its a shame. can't wait to buy any of this fucking crash....
23:25:35 <b_jonas> also, the stupidest town name on that list is probably Rábaszentmiklós
23:26:53 <b_jonas> also, the Wiener Philharmoniker new year concert is starting in about 11 hours. I'll have to switch before I watch that one live.
23:27:03 <b_jonas> s/switch/sleep/ sorry qwertyal aphasia
23:32:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:36:44 <bunnyocto19> int-e: is there something fishy with url params for blsq.cgi?
23:38:31 <b_jonas> New Year for +00:00 timezone offset (UK, UTC, Iceland) will be in 22 minutes
23:40:34 <bunnyocto19> 1%2B seems to be convertet to "1 " instead of "1+"
23:46:33 <oerjan> <Taneb> "Castille" sounds a bit odd if you pronounce it with a θ <-- i think \oren\'s analysis may be a tad off
23:46:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (B!) Invalid arguments!
23:47:01 <fizzie> I think we'll watch the BBC fireworks show, I think that's the British thing to do, and it's important to integrate well when you're an immigrant I hear.
23:47:11 <HackEso> Thanks, Castille. Thastille.
23:48:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: ooh! do you also watch the Queen's speech?
23:49:31 <fizzie> Yes, we did, though this time not live.
23:49:45 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it's never live, but not at the time it was being broadcast.
23:49:46 <b_jonas> what? but it's not midnight yet
23:50:04 <fizzie> The Queen's speech is 3pm at Christmas Day.
23:50:07 <b_jonas> it'll be midnight in 10 minutes
23:50:18 <b_jonas> but doesn't she do a New Year speech too?
23:50:39 <fizzie> Not as far as I know. But I'm not an expert here.
23:53:45 -!- mkzzz has joined.
23:53:49 <fizzie> Since I'll be busy at midnight -- happy new year of misspelling the date in forms.
23:54:07 <fizzie> I think 2020's going to be a particularly bad one for that.
23:54:38 -!- mkzzz has quit (Client Quit).
23:56:04 <b_jonas> New Year for +00:00 timezone offset in 4 minutes
23:56:21 <oerjan> in norway, at least back when i watched tv, there were two new year's speeches, one by the king and one by the prime minister.
23:57:02 <oerjan> i think one was on new year's eve and one on new year's day
23:58:33 <oerjan> both still going strong, apparently