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02:02:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131865&oldid=130080 * TwilightSparkle * (+229) /* About Scratch */
02:29:57 <salpynx> I would have never guessed before trying to implement it that the most arcane part of the Conedy spec is: "For each uppercase letter, there must be a corresponding lowercase letter (for which both letters case-fold to the same codepoint), and vice versa"
02:32:04 <HackEso> U+0138 LATIN SMALL LETTER KRA \ UTF-8: c4 b8 UTF-16BE: 0138 Decimal: ĸ \ ĸ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
02:32:58 <salpynx> `run python3 -c "print('ĸ'.upper() == 'ĸ'.lower())"
02:39:59 <salpynx> this might be a Python3 bug, but it's not especially clear what the meaningful result should be, other than upper() ever returning a result in the Ll category seems wrong.
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02:45:50 <salpynx> https://codepoints.net/U+0138?lang=en shows it is lowercase, but explicitly maps its uppercase to itself :shrug: Are there other examples of this?
02:47:36 <salpynx> Sharing because Unicode is a frequent topic of discussion / complaint here. HackEso's `unicode cmd is also very convenient
02:55:49 <ais523> <salpynx> I would have never guessed before trying to implement it that the most arcane part of the Conedy spec is: "For each uppercase letter, there must be a corresponding lowercase letter (for which both letters case-fold to the same codepoint), and vice versa" ← I knew at the time it was difficult, and worded that sentence specifically to at least be unambiguous
02:56:57 <ais523> some languages have a casefold function/method that folds any letter to either its uppercase or lowercase version, consistently for each uppercase/lowercase pair, in a way that makes "same letter with different case" comparisons work – neither uppercase nor lowercase does that consistently IIRC
02:58:06 <ais523> if there's an "equals-ignoring-case" method, that would work too – some regex engines can do that
03:24:03 <b_jonas> yes, python has str.casefold for that
03:59:42 <zzo38> I had made a character code which makes case-folding much more consistent regardless of the languages; no complicated tables are needed, and the I which is normal, with a dot, and without a dot, are three different characters, so it does not have that problem.
04:00:10 <zzo38> However, whether or not this is suitable depends on your application; different character codes are suitable for different applications, anyways.
04:01:31 <salpynx> I happened to star with lowercase Unicode, then tried to find the uppercase other-half of the pair. Starting with Uppercase and using casefold seems like it will have less issues. ty
04:02:52 <salpynx> I'm now thinking upper and lower case are very context dependent, and not always consistently meaningful
04:06:42 <salpynx> Unicode category Ll has 2,155 entries, Lu has 1,791, so that's the limit for pair, and I should have started with Lu!
04:07:34 <ais523> <salpynx> I'm now thinking upper and lower case are very context dependent, and not always consistently meaningful ← indeed!
04:10:18 <zzo38> Yes, it is very context dependent and not always consistently meaningful, I agree with that.
04:10:50 <JAA> A common example for this is the letter i in Turkish. Its uppercase is İ, and the lowercase of I is ı.
04:12:10 <JAA> There are also some fun examples where you have two lowercase letters corresponding to one uppercase, e.g. σ and ς for Σ.
04:12:18 <ais523> that's one example that Unicode libraries don't normally handle by default – you have to request Turkic casefolding with separate methods, if it's even supported
04:12:44 <ais523> JAA: a good one is that the uppercase of ß is SS which is two letters rather than one
04:13:03 <JAA> ais523: Except not anymore! There is ẞ now!
04:13:05 <ais523> …and although ẞ exists it isn't generally used, but its lowercase version is definitely ß
04:13:28 <ais523> `` perl -E 'say uc "ß"'
04:13:42 <ais523> hmm, need to turn on Unicode
04:13:51 <JAA> Related to that, IDNA 2003 vs 2008.
04:14:07 <HackEso> U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S \ UTF-8: e1 ba 9e UTF-16BE: 1e9e Decimal: ẞ \ ẞ (ß) \ Lowercase: U+00DF \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
04:14:32 <ais523> `` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say uc "ß"'
04:15:07 <ais523> `` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say lc uc lc "ẞ"'
04:15:23 <JAA> IDNA 2003 normalises ß to ss, so no domain names with ß are possible in it. IDNA 2008 fixed that, but it leads to incompatibilities in some fun places. Python still only supports 2003, and trying to do TLS certificate validation on a domain containing an ß leads to surprise fireworks.
04:15:23 <ais523> `` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say fc "ẞ"'
04:15:35 <ais523> huh, that's an interesting casefold normalization
04:15:39 <ais523> but I guess it makes sense, considering
04:17:15 <salpynx> ah, that's how to get perl to do that, I was missing -Mutf8 and switched to python to get HackEso to respond correctly
04:17:19 <zzo38> Yes, those cases where there are multiple ways to case-fold.
04:17:20 <JAA> But yeah, also a very good example for this kind of nonsense. :-)
04:17:38 <ais523> salpynx: -C is for reading/writing files and argv, -Mutf8 is for the program itself
04:18:41 <zzo38> But I think that the working of international domain names is no good; I had idea how to make a better way. It would involve a code to select a language (a domain component has only one language), which has its own character set that does not distinguish uppercase/lowercase, instead of using Unicode. And then, TLS certificates and most other file formats would use only the ASCII format of the domain name.
04:19:01 <zzo38> (Since the ASCII format is most portable and will be consistent, so it won't cause the problem.)
04:20:13 <zzo38> And then, each of these small character sets will have mapping to Extended TRON Code, althogh they would also be possible to use as stand-alone character sets, so a program can use them directly if desired (and in most cases would use them directly)
04:21:47 <salpynx> JAA: Thanks for the Greek and Turkish examples, sigma should have been obvious when I was trying to think of one. Intuitively Σ -> σ, and ς is a context dependent version of σ. I hope casefold agrees.
04:24:54 <ais523> `` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say fc "Σσς"'
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04:33:01 <esolangs> [[Chef]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131867&oldid=131866 * Indigo * (+38)
04:40:31 <salpynx> My Conedy "Hello, World!" sketch uses 104 letter pairs (one for each output bit), that's 5% of the available pairs.
04:40:31 <salpynx> I thought re-using nets for output would be impractical because every net has only one beacon to head for afterwards.
04:40:31 <salpynx> But there might be up to 3 distinct exit paths depending on the angle of incidence?
04:40:42 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131868&oldid=131758 * Ractangle * (+25)
04:41:08 <ais523> it would be amazing if the outcome of this were "Conedy is almost TC, but there aren't enough letters in Unicode to make it work"
04:41:12 <salpynx> I'm not totally convinced by that output convention. The input form makes more sense though. Encoding data in decimal places of rationals is what makes the language interesting.
04:41:54 <salpynx> It'd expand as Unicode does, so it'lll be Unicode version dependent
04:49:05 <salpynx> A more satisfying Hello World would be something that aimed and exited the playing field at, say x or y coord
04:49:07 <salpynx> `` python -c "print('10.' + ''.join([str(ord(c)).zfill(3) for c in 'Hello, World!']))"
04:49:09 <HackEso> 10.072101108108111044032087111114108100033
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05:02:05 <zzo38> About the Turkish alphabets, that is why I put a separate code for them: 0x702149 for dotless uppercase I but the 0x702249 for the ordinary uppercase I whose lowercase does have a dot but uppercase doesn't. And then, 0x709149 will mean the uppercase I including a dot. (This is not always useful in all applications, but for some applications this will help significantly.)
05:04:01 <zzo38> New versions of a character set ought to not cause programs to change, anyways.
05:14:53 <zzo38> These are reasons why I write software to not use Unicode, as much as possible. Other people do not think about the consideration properly, and will say, O, we will put Unicode; that way you can write international text and now the program is international. Well, that won't work, and it might also just get in the way, depending on what exactly your program is doing (it is not same for all programs, though).
05:23:08 <salpynx> Now if I understand correctly, a Conedy source file could contain either a Ii pair OR a İi pair unambiguously, and the spec is clear.
05:23:16 <salpynx> I was generating a list of valid pairs to compose scripts from. It never occurred to me that some valid pairs would be mutually exclusive.
05:24:16 <salpynx> Σσ και Σς are other examples of mutually exclusive pairs.
05:25:13 <zzo38> Maybe, if they should make a non-Unicode variant which can be better. For example, each cell contains an integer; each positive must have a corresponding negative and vice-versa; nonzero integers must be unique within the program; and the sum of all of the numbers in the program must add up to zero.
05:26:57 <salpynx> that is a lot more clear cut. I think the problem (which I run into frequently with eso-langs) is you want a distinct 1 character symbol for each numeric value
05:28:46 <salpynx> .. an idea I am working on involves extending utf8 to enable infinite codepoints to work with an alphabet with one symbol for every natural number
05:29:20 <zzo38> There is extensions like that of UTF-8, I think.
05:30:04 <salpynx> Instead of positive / negative pairs, would adjacent odd/even codepoints work? They wouldn't neccesarily look related, which is the advantage case has
05:30:25 <zzo38> However, UTF-8 is not the only character encoding (nor is Unicode the only character set, although an extension of UTF-8 beyond U+10FFFF is already not Unicode anyways)
05:30:48 <zzo38> Yes, odd/even like that would work, and is sometimes the way of converting integers into natural numbers by a 1:1 correspondence.
05:31:01 <salpynx> I would be super interested in knowing of a UTF-8 extension like that, the encoding to extend it is pretty obvious, the question is why anyone would bother :)
05:33:26 <salpynx> I did look, but there's enough confusion around UTF-8, I don't know what terms to search for to find a hypothetical infinite alphabet solution.
05:33:33 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think it is unnecessary and not helpful in this case anyways. Anyways, even without such an extension, UTF-8 can encode any unsigned 31-bit number. (This technically allows encoding TRON characters (up to 128 volumes) in UTF-8 without ambiguity, but it isn't a very good way of doing it anyways.)
05:33:58 <zzo38> I have seen the infinite variant of UTF-8 called "UTF-8-infinity", although I could not find it recently.
05:35:08 <salpynx> it's possible it's something I wrote on the esolangs wiki, that would be funny. I have at least two works in progress of the idea (but I keep getting sidetracked)
05:38:47 <salpynx> recently I realised that not only do I need to write the codec, I need to rewrite 'String' to work with it too, which is actually the more complex part, and figure out some intermediate representations that don't clash with existing ones
05:42:06 <salpynx> Just looking at TRON now. I have always liked Unicode, but suspected that if I had more experience or requirement for Chinese I'd change my mind pretty quickly. It seems a weak point, and TBH I avoid looking into the details, as some sort of cognitive dissonance avoidance.
05:43:58 <salpynx> zz038: when you say "0x702149 for dotless uppercase " is that TRON, or a custom encoding?
05:44:58 <zzo38> It is an unofficial "Extended TRON Code". So, it can be used with TRON code (it is a different plane number, so it does not overlap the existing codes)
05:45:52 <salpynx> Does TRON have an upper limit?
05:45:54 <zzo38> (Officially, you can use 0x212349 for the JIS character English uppercase I, though, which still is available in the Extended TRON Code, too)
05:47:05 <zzo38> TRON does not have an upper limit, although some encodings may have limits, and computer programs may have practical limits. There is a limit of 10648000 characters per volume, although the number of volumes is unlimited. TRON-32 encoding supports up to 256 volumes; TRON-8 and TRON-16 are theoretically unlimited.)
05:48:21 <zzo38> (The names "TRON-8", "TRON-16", and "TRON-32" are my own names for the encodings; as far as I know there are no official names for them, although the Ruby programming language uses "TADTextBE" for what I call "TRON-16BE", and "stateless-TADTextBE" for what I call "TRON-32BE". As far as I can tell, usually "TRON code" refers to the TRON-16 encoding (like how in the past, "Unicode" often referred to UTF-16).)
05:49:32 <zzo38> I wrote a article on Just Solve The File Format Problem Wiki about TRON character code, although there is a lot of stuff I could not figure out, so I could not include.
05:51:03 <zzo38> (My use of the word "volume" here is also my own; I don't know what (if any) official terminology exists for the concept that I am refering to, since most of the information is in Japanese and even that is difficult to find.)
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05:57:46 <salpynx> Thanks, this is interesting, I'll have to read more. I have not encountered TRON before, but it seems like it's been around for a while. Knowing there is Ruby support is good, and makes sense.
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06:03:02 <zzo38> I have made a bitmap font for the first TRON plane, which is based on combining several other fonts, and then I added the braille by myself. (Actually, the list of fonts in esolang wiki (the article called "Font") does list this font.) Later, I would hope that bitmap fonts for the other planes can also be made up, including the unofficial Extended planes.
06:06:23 <zzo38> (I had also found TrueType fonts for the second and third TRON planes; however, they are split across fourteen fonts, with Unicode mappings that have no relation to TRON code nor Unicode, with PDF files describing the mappings. It seems difficult to actually make them useful; I have tried to parse data from the PDF automatically but could not get it to work, so it would have to be entered manually.)
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07:31:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the complications of the turkish i, the vietnamese i, and the russian vs serbian i/p and š/t force tradeoffs on us, they mean there's no single way to deal with letter case differences that's the best for all applications, sadly.
07:32:32 <b_jonas> "Unicode category Ll has 2,155 entries, Lu has 1,791" => that's mostly because of letters that are used only in various IPA-like phonetic transcriptions though
07:34:16 <b_jonas> "trying to do TLS certificate validation on a domain containing an ß leads to surprise fireworks" => hehe
07:39:01 <b_jonas> salpynx: "extension of UTF-8 beyond U+10FFFF" => https://ucsx.org/
07:46:33 <b_jonas> salpynx, ais523: if you're running low on letter for a Conedy program, you could use characters composed from multiple code points as a cell, like и́И́, and hope that the interpreter handles them properly
07:49:36 <b_jonas> ``` datei # we need a new password, right?
07:49:38 <HackEso> 2024-07-01 07:49:37.558 +0000 UTC July 1 Monday 2024-W27-1
07:56:54 <b_jonas> also this years ICFP contest names its associated esoteric language ICFP, which will result in an even weirder entry on the esowiki than the languages called GCC and GHC did
08:06:46 <riv> i started icfp
08:06:52 <riv> but i didn't understand how strings are not terminated
08:08:11 <b_jonas> riv: in the source code, every token is terminated by a space
08:09:34 <b_jonas> riv: note that the source code character set differs from the character set in which you read the strings, so this is ASCII space terminator, while space in the string is represented by ascii right bracket or something like that
08:09:54 <riv> oh that explains it haha
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08:12:23 <salpynx> b_jonas: UCS-∞ is perfect, thank you! The encoding seems... more thoughtful than what I came up with, they have thought about practical performance issues for very large code points.
08:17:43 <salpynx> b_jonas: "use characters composed from multiple code points as a cell, like и́И́" Good idea, that does seem an intuitive extension. I'll consider adding it, it probably won't happen by default.
08:28:17 <salpynx> Heh, I totally overlooked "Yet another useful property of one-to-six-byte UTF-8 is that the leading byte indicates the length of a code."
08:30:40 <b_jonas> I'm not saying that this is necessary, it's quite possible that the few thousand available upper-lower case pairs are sufficient for TCness
08:37:09 <b_jonas> this is kind of like the M:tG creature types thing
08:38:51 <salpynx> I was about to agree, but limiting the pairs in Conedy is like limiting the length of the source code. I that same same role M:tG creatures play?
08:40:59 <salpynx> Like how the number of waterclocks in The Waterfall Model are not the same as number of registers in a Minsky machine
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08:43:27 <b_jonas> salpynx: the creature types thing comes up when we examine the eso-question of how we can do universal computations in M:tG. (there are multiple variants of what question you want answered.) the constructions that we have use creature types as a resource, so we compile from some intermediate language and how much of something the source program uses turns into how many creature types there are. the
08:43:33 <b_jonas> number of creature types is around 279, but this number increases at most rules changes, because the new expansion set has cards that are of new creature types or mention new creature types (usually because they have rules for creating a token of that type, but there are exceptions like Coward). except I think the number of creature types decreased at the Lorwyn update.
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08:44:59 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could design a programming language that deliberately uses some such list as a resource, and such that the limit is near some computational power jump. like a language where the source code is a list of countries, and it's TC iff Kosovo is a country
08:45:52 <b_jonas> or maybe it depends on the scrabble word list, and whether QI and ZA are words changes the power
08:48:07 <salpynx> lol, that could probably be contrived somehow, by forcing elements to have to work together. Aren't most TC limits 1,2, or 3 (2-reg Minsky) (3 cell bf)
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08:51:21 <salpynx> I see creatures are explicitly equivalent to waterclocks in the flooding waterfall model. They represent source code and data, Conedy letter pairs just represent source code... they seem similar though
08:52:52 <b_jonas> an efghij-style language where you need smartphones with different brands of operating systems for loops, so whether you can find two non-Android non-Apple phones decides if you can be TC
08:54:09 <salpynx> if the basic construction could be TC (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) it probably has the same kind of leeway that future specs could have more letters (/ creatures) ... so it's potentially unlimited
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08:57:28 <b_jonas> a language where parts of the source code are read from the internet in such a way that you need to have access to domain names under different top-level domains to be able to write a program
08:59:05 <salpynx> having it conditional on useful discoveries (drugs, planets, mathematical proofs), maybe a Minsky machine with registers addressable by the names of planetary bodies which have independently evolved life?
09:00:21 <salpynx> I'd like to try running an Earth, Enceladus pair to see if that compiles...
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09:20:53 <salpynx> Could someone please produce a chart showing the number of M:tG creatures vs. number of Conedy compliant Unicode character pairs over time, to indicate likely future trends? <== isn't there an esolang where asking in IRC is valid code? (trying my luck)
09:24:16 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP is a thing, yes.
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09:51:34 <wib_jonas> an esolang where the source code is a person or team, and the program is ran by transforming this person's or teams achievements in some sport to source code for a simpler esolang. if you want the program whose source code you are to do something interesting, then you have to bat/throw/swim/climb specific sequences in multiple ranked matches.
10:06:52 <esolangs> [[ICFP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131878 * B jonas * (+363) Created page with "'''IFCP''' is an esoteric programming language involved in the tasks for [[:Category:ICFP contest|]] 2024. (No description given here yet because the contest is still ongoing for a few hours.) == External links == * [https://icfpcontest2024.github.io/ ICFP 2024 contest
10:08:31 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131879&oldid=128843 * B jonas * (+33) /* Todo */
10:20:47 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131880&oldid=131195 * Gilbert189 * (+7951) It's an esolang! It's a conlang! No, it's... whatever this is.
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11:05:48 <esolangs> [[ICFP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131887&oldid=131878 * None1 * (+0) ICFP or IFCP?
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12:41:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131898&oldid=131897 * Tommyaweosme * (+8) t o c
12:57:34 <esolangs> [[Galveston]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131899&oldid=101437 * Salpynx * (+145) /* External resources */ Link to UCS- Specification
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12:59:02 <esolangs> [[GHost CPU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131900 * B jonas * (+2255) Created page with "'''GHost CPU''' (GHC) is one of the languages used in the [[:Category:ICFP contest|]] 2014. GHC is designed to resemble an 1980s 8-bit microcontroller. It has a read-only code memory made of 256 instructions, a read-write data memory made of 256 bytes, 8 general-p
12:59:26 <esolangs> [[GHC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131901 * B jonas * (+23) Redirected page to [[GHost CPU]]
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13:45:18 <wib_jonas> so the C standard says that in struct tm, the normal range of the tm_mon field is 0 to 11 inclusive, and, in the docs of the asctime function, even specifies the abbreviated names of the 12 months in normative text. This means the standard library could use the Julian calendar, the Gregorian calendar, a combination of the two with the transition
13:45:19 <wib_jonas> date dependent on the local timezone, or even a different 12-month calendar with the same month names; but it can't use a lunisolar calendar, since that would need 13 different month indexes in some years. that's a pity. if we do a calendar reform, gmtime/localtime/mktime might have to return the broken down date in the old Gregorian calendar for
13:45:19 <wib_jonas> compatibility with the C standard.
13:52:25 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131902&oldid=131894 * Yayimhere * (+79)
13:56:11 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131903&oldid=131902 * Yayimhere * (+116) /* examples */
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13:58:56 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131904&oldid=131903 * Yayimhere * (+111)
14:00:49 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131905&oldid=131904 * Yayimhere * (+41)
14:01:08 <wib_jonas> that's a land type, not a creature type.
14:08:15 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131906&oldid=131905 * Yayimhere * (+173) /* A OR B */
14:08:30 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131907&oldid=131906 * Yayimhere * (+6) /* A NOR B */
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14:12:54 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131908&oldid=131907 * Yayimhere * (+127) /* examples */
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14:21:28 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131909&oldid=131908 * Yayimhere * (+77) /* A AND B */
14:28:10 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131910&oldid=131909 * Yayimhere * (+295) /* examples */
14:28:23 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131911&oldid=131910 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* A > B */
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16:11:32 <esolangs> [[General Compute Coprocessor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131912 * B jonas * (+1482) Created page with "'''General Compute Coprocessor''' (GCC) is one of the languages used in the [[:Category:ICFP contest|ICFP contest]] 2014. GCC is a virtual machine intended for running a lisp-like untyped functional language compiled to it. There are built-in ins
16:11:56 <esolangs> [[GCC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131913 * B jonas * (+41) Redirected page to [[General Compute Coprocessor]]
16:14:14 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131914&oldid=131879 * B jonas * (-45) /* Todo */
16:24:07 <ais523> b_jonas: re: C restricting its time functions to 12 months: Java actually has constants for 13 months in order to work around that problem (the constants are normatively named JANUARY, FEBRUARY, etc., with the 13th being UNDECIMBER)
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17:18:59 <fizzie> Looks like that's the case for the old java.util.Calendar, but not for the new java.time.Month enumeration, which just has the usual 12 constants.
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17:59:14 <zzo38> In operating system designs I had considered the calendar also with i18n, as well as text and other stuff. A calendar does not even necessarily have months/weeks/etc; so strftime and that stuff is not used mainly but for international calendars you will have a different function, and won't use the locales like C and POSIX are using.
17:59:52 <zzo38> For general timekeeping, there are four kind of timestamps: SI relative, SI absolute, UTC relative, UTC absolute. These can be converted into whatever kind of calendars you want to use, but these four kind are independent of the calendars in use.
18:01:51 <zzo38> (Distinguishing SI and UTC is necessary in order to deal with leap seconds. Furthermore, they use the number of seconds and nanoseconds; UTC timestamps may have a number of nanoseconds exceeding one billion in some cases. Furthermore, arithmetic on such timestamps may sometimes result in missing fields, which is just something that you will have to deal with.)
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18:04:01 <zzo38> This way would also avoid the confusion involving Julian vs Gregorian calendar, hopefully.
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18:12:04 <zzo38> Also, neither Unicode nor TRON code nor any other character set solves all of the problems. Some people expect to solve it by just putting in Unicode, but that won't help and neither will TRON code. TRON code has many advantages over Unicode in my opinion, but what a program or file format should need is not something that is solved merely by putting in some kind of universal character set.
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18:14:01 <zzo38> What I had consider with operating system design though, is it can handle "long character sets" and "short character sets". The long character set is Extended TRON Code. Short character sets always use 8-bit codse. (Individual programs can do what they need to do, although these are the general uses by what is handled and interchanged by most things in the operating system that need to deal with text.)
18:14:11 <zzo38> (Not everything does need to deal with text, of course.)
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18:24:03 <zzo38> UCS-G is something that would make sense for some programs to support, if they deal with Unicode-based encodings such as UTF-8 and UTF-32 (although perhaps not UTF-16, since that is more complicated and is not the simple obvious thing to do which can be done directly and easily).
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18:48:10 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131915&oldid=131911 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* XOR */
18:49:06 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131916&oldid=131915 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* A OR B */
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19:35:56 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131917&oldid=131864 * Ractangle * (+2)
19:36:47 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131918&oldid=131917 * Ractangle * (-29) /* Python3 */
19:37:10 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131919&oldid=131918 * Ractangle * (-101)
19:45:36 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131920&oldid=131919 * Ractangle * (+120) /* Implementations */
19:56:56 <b_jonas> `learn The password of the month is making the garbage collector hard to implement with its unpredictable lifetime.
19:57:00 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is making the garbage collector hard to implement with its unpredictable lifetime.
20:02:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131921&oldid=130126 * Ractangle * (+43) /* Looping counter */
20:02:41 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131922&oldid=131921 * Ractangle * (+43) /* Looping counter */
20:35:57 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131923&oldid=131853 * Ractangle * (-82) /* Commands */
20:38:23 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131924&oldid=129200 * Ractangle * (+39) /* Spin */
20:39:01 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131925&oldid=130114 * Ractangle * (-217) /* */
20:39:40 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131926&oldid=131925 * Ractangle * (-105) /* */
20:40:03 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131927&oldid=131926 * Ractangle * (+104) /* */
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21:21:03 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131928&oldid=131920 * Salpynx * (+121) /* Implementations */ I don't quite understand what this is, but here's an interactive graph.
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21:33:17 <fizzie> Bah, `apt full-upgrade` (from Debian 11 to 12) wants to install apache2 for some reason.
21:36:15 <fizzie> Can't really tell why. As it stands, `aptitude why apache2` just says certbot (installed) suggests python3-certbot-apache, which depends on apache2, but that's just a 'suggests', and it's not planning to install python3-certbot-apache, I think `aptitude why` just tries to explain why it might currently be needed, not what might eventually need it after the upgrade.
21:37:38 <fizzie> It is planning to install libapache2-mod-php8.2, which might be the reason why it's planning to install apache2, so maybe it's something to do with the PHP upgrade.
21:37:39 <JAA> Yeah, it's a bit of a pain to debug that kind of thing.
21:37:55 <JAA> You could do `apt-cache rdepends apache2` and then compare that to what is being installed.
21:38:45 <JAA> Another thing to try would be to disable recommended packages, but that might not be desirable in all cases.
21:40:07 <fizzie> It is going to install php8.2, which depends on "libapache2-mod-php8.2 | php8.2-fpm | php8.2-cgi, php8.2-common", but it's installing php8.2-fpm so it shouldn't also need to install libapache2-mod-php8.2 too. But I'm still guessing it's a PHP thing.
21:41:05 <fizzie> It's also going to use "986 MB of additional disk space" which is _slightly_ concerning because the wiki-machine is already using 66% (17G) of the available 25G of disk.
21:42:26 <fizzie> `apt full-upgrade --no-install-recommends` doesn't want apache2, so I guess it is a recommended package somewhere indeed. Maybe I'll diff what it's planning, and if nothing important seems to be left out I'll go with that.
21:58:12 <b_jonas> why is php installed in first... never mind, it's for MediaWiki obviously
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22:18:52 <fizzie> I just went with the default full-upgrade and then uninstalled apache2 after the fact.
22:19:15 <fizzie> The nginx metrics powering my fancy dashboard were broken by the upgrade though.
22:22:22 <fizzie> Just one more reboot, hopefully.
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22:30:12 <fizzie> I really should have some sort of a staging environment set up for this thing.
22:30:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131929&oldid=130462 * Rdococ * (+196) /* Fix the name */ new section
22:37:07 <fizzie> Things seem to be mostly working, except the HackEso container doesn't.
22:38:16 <fizzie> It's set up in a systemd-nspawn thing, in which the UML stuff runs, but now `machinectl shell ...` just immediately exits.
22:39:48 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131930&oldid=131602 * Zzo38 * (+286) Super ZZ Zero (assembly)
22:43:09 <fizzie> Wonder what's wrong with that. `machinectl login ...` does give me a getty "in" it (well, the hostname looks right and so on), but I can't log in because there are no users with passwords in there.
22:45:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:One Time Cat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131931 * EvyLah * (+212) /* How does the program actually work? */ new section
22:46:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131932&oldid=131931 * EvyLah * (+90) forgot signature
22:46:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131933&oldid=131932 * EvyLah * (+0)
22:59:05 <fizzie> Hmm. `systemd-run -M ... -P` seems to work for running things in the container. I think it must be some sort of pty and/or permissions problem.
23:03:05 <fizzie> Managed to dig down the error for the bot, which seems to be something networking-related.
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23:18:51 <Sgeo> Would a computer architecture that performs addition using a lookup table in memory be considered esoteric?
23:18:52 <esolangs> [[General Compute Coprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131934&oldid=131912 * B jonas * (+301)
23:21:01 <b_jonas> Sgeo: likely, and I think there's such a machine somewhere though I don't remember the name
23:21:23 <fizzie> "The 1620 was announced in 1959 and targetted at the small scientific market. Its internal code name CADET was jokingly said to mean "Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try", referring to the use of addition tables in memory rather than dedicated addition circuitry."
23:22:35 <Sgeo> I haven't found documentation for how the tables are meant to be loaded in memory. One reference to maybe loading the tables being part of the programs?
23:22:36 <b_jonas> Sgeo: https://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher
23:37:16 <Sgeo> Oh god now I want to add audio to that JS implementation
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00:21:28 <salpynx> The wiki needs a page for BQN, it seems to be a popular current APL-like, and is referenced a few times from some articles already. https://mlochbaum.github.io/BQN/
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01:29:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:ImTooLazyToMakeAnActuallyGoodEsolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131935 * EvyLah * (+194) Created page with "it would be really funny if I changed <code>,</code> to <code>/</code> so you could create "morse code". ~~~~"
01:31:21 <esolangs> [[BQN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131936 * Salpynx * (+221) I know nothing about this, just found a series of 'inspired by BQN' references and was surprised there was no article yet
01:34:52 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131937&oldid=131670 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+268) /* Programs */
01:35:41 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131938&oldid=131937 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8) /* Calculator */
01:35:50 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131939&oldid=106986 * Salpynx * (+4) /* External links */ link to BQN
01:36:12 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131940&oldid=131938 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* 99 bottles of beer */
01:38:16 <esolangs> [[Quiner]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131941&oldid=124422 * Salpynx * (+4) /* Interpreters */ link to BQN
02:04:52 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131942 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1601) Created page with "''' 'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.''' is made by ~~~~ ===
02:05:19 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131943&oldid=131942 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+17)
02:06:05 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131944&oldid=131943 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+29)
02:06:15 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131945&oldid=131944 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* truthmachine */
02:07:19 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131946&oldid=131945 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* truth-machine */
02:12:08 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131947&oldid=131946 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+59)
02:12:33 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131948&oldid=131947 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-157)
02:12:50 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131949&oldid=131543 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+100)
02:13:27 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131950&oldid=131948 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+29)
02:14:38 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131951&oldid=131950 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2) /* quine= = */
02:14:54 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131952&oldid=131951 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8) /* program */
02:15:51 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131953&oldid=131952 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+114) /* program */
02:16:36 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131954&oldid=131953 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+62) /* commands */
02:17:20 <Sgeo> Is there a reference for what "Audio Test" is supposed to sound like? My attempt to make a reference doesn't quite sound like what I've heard
02:19:20 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131955&oldid=131954 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+113) /* program */
02:21:47 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131956&oldid=131955 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+62)
02:22:08 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131957&oldid=131956 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+9) /* /// program */
02:23:26 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131958&oldid=131957 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-36) /* Slashes program */
02:23:45 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131959&oldid=131958 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* \ */
02:25:10 <esolangs> [[Maybe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131960&oldid=126816 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2)
02:44:31 <Sgeo> I have no intuition for how ByteByteJump can do calculations
02:58:11 <zzo38> I think you would have to use lookup tables to make calculation
03:01:41 <Sgeo> Hmm, do the addresses have to be larger than a byte? That... makes it make more sense, you could.. modify a part of a destination address?
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03:53:02 <Sgeo> "Well, since we have no ALU, arithmetic/logic operations have to be performed by way of table lookups, which requires X to be ≥ 2 for the machine to function at all."
04:38:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131961&oldid=88581 * Sgeo * (+338) /* Audio from "Audio Test" */ new section
04:59:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131962&oldid=131961 * Sgeo * (+2) Fix typo in repo name
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05:58:46 <esolangs> [[Conedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131963&oldid=57016 * Salpynx * (+160) It's a little hard to confirm this interpreter is totally correct, it might need tuning. Bug reports more than welcome!
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08:30:55 <b_jonas> Sgeo: so BytePusher uses 3-byte long addresses and copies one byte at a time. The easy way to do calculations would be to have full 64k sized lookup tables for an arithmetic operation, which you may be able to afford if you have lots of RAM or ROM, or cheat by simulating ROM with hardware or software that computes the result from the lookup table on the fly. But it turns out you don't actually need full
08:31:01 <b_jonas> 64k lookup tables, you can get away with just some 4k sized ones. Eg. have a 4k sized lookup table with hex address FE0uxy with value uy to get the low nybble of a byte xy, then one at hex address FE1uxy with value ux to isolate the high nybble, then a 4k sized table at FE2yzw with value zw+0y to add the a nybble, and a 4k sized table at FE3xzw with value zw+x0 to add a high nybble, and then to do the
08:31:07 <b_jonas> addition zw+xy you first use the first table at FE02xy to get 2y and then you use that 2y to look up FE2yzw to get the intermediate result zw+0y, let's call that st, then look up FE13xy to get 3x, then use that to look up FE3xst to get the final result st+x0 of the addition. You can do subtraction and bitwise ops in a similar way, and even multiplication with an extra addition step using a table to
08:31:13 <b_jonas> multiply with low nybble and another table to multiply with high nybble. Then you can use a few more helper tables to get comparisons and the carry of addition so that you can build multi-byte integer arithmetic too.
08:31:17 <b_jonas> I admit I don't like this model of computation, but it is workable.
09:04:13 <b_jonas> and of course since basic arithmetic is such a common need, you'd put a bunch of tables and common subroutines like this into your ROM or KERNAL or operating system or standard library to share them among most programs ran on the computer
09:13:18 <salpynx> `mediatype:texts AND language:(ukr OR Ukrainian) AND scanningcenter:*` is what I used with the ia client tool. Yes, I was hoping for more too :(
09:13:20 <HackEso> mediatype:texts? No such file or directory
09:56:50 <esolangs> [[Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131964&oldid=114186 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Example */
09:57:04 <esolangs> [[Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131965&oldid=131964 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Quine */
09:58:20 <esolangs> [[Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131966&oldid=131965 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Quine */
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10:45:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/Inded]] to [[User:Ractangle/None,]]
10:53:33 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131969&oldid=131967 * Ractangle * (+300)
10:53:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/None,]] to [[Ractangle/None,]]
10:54:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Ractangle/None,]] to [[User:Ractangle/None,]] over redirect
10:54:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[User:Ractangle/None,]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Ractangle/None,]]"
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10:57:36 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131974&oldid=131972 * Ractangle * (+135)
11:01:02 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131975&oldid=131974 * Ractangle * (+13) /* Commands */
11:01:33 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131976&oldid=131975 * Ractangle * (+148) /* Hello, world! */
11:03:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131977&oldid=131976 * Ractangle * (+45) /* Commands */
11:04:36 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131978&oldid=131977 * Ractangle * (+37) /* Commands */
11:06:08 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131979&oldid=131978 * Ractangle * (+67) /* Commands */
11:09:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131980&oldid=131979 * Ractangle * (+245) /* Examples */
11:09:55 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131981&oldid=131980 * Ractangle * (-11) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:10:04 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131982&oldid=131981 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:10:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/None,]] to [[None,]]
11:10:53 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131985&oldid=131787 * Ractangle * (+36)
11:11:03 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131986&oldid=131985 * Ractangle * (+4)
11:12:21 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131987&oldid=127051 * Ractangle * (+1) prints Nopf. for somereason
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12:01:47 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131988&oldid=131916 * Yayimhere * (-5)
12:03:08 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131989&oldid=131988 * Yayimhere * (-67) /* A AND B */
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12:27:53 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131990&oldid=131922 * Ractangle * (+304) /* Truth-machine (kinda) */
12:32:22 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131991&oldid=131990 * Ractangle * (+89) /* Truth-machine (kinda) */
12:36:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131992&oldid=131991 * Ractangle * (+44) /* Truth-machine (kinda) */
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12:45:47 <wib_jonas> ``` thank fizzie # I see HackEso is working again.
12:45:48 <HackEso> bash: thank: command not found
12:53:28 <Raoof> Hello all, I have a very simple idea about a language inspired by Z3 and Blindfolded Arithmetic, that I conjecture to be total and turing complete, anybody interested ? should I create a page myself ? would you create one for me ? I conjecture that composition of these four function (the syntax is in javascript)
12:53:29 <Raoof> sub = (a,b) => { if(a.v) return a; if(b.v) return b; return a-b-0n; }
12:53:29 <Raoof> mul = (a,b) => { if(a.v) return a; if(b.v) return b; return a*b*1n; }
12:53:30 <Raoof> div = (a,b) => { try{ if(a.v) return a; if(b.v) return b; return a/b*1n; }catch(e){ if(e.name==="RangeError") return {v:a,toString(){return this.v.toString();},[util.inspect.custom](){return this.v;}}; else throw e; } }
12:53:30 <Raoof> inc = (a) => { if(a.v) return a; return a+1n; }
12:53:31 <Raoof> are turing complete
12:53:53 <wib_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tarski => isn't this just underload without S and with the primitives renamed?
12:54:35 <Raoof> I don't know, let me read it
12:56:42 <wib_jonas> Raoof: I don't understand, how would you get any loop from that? it looks like all those functions just finish quickly. also there's no nullary function so I'm not sure how you start building anything, or how this language is supposed to work.
12:56:43 <fizzie> Yeah, it was just a network configuration problem as far as the bot was concerned. Although I may still need to figure out why an interactive shell with a terminal in the container isn't working, since sometimes having one of those might be convenient.
12:58:38 <Raoof> wib_jonas that is my conjecture, it does not have any loops, it is a non-recursive language
12:59:42 <wib_jonas> Raoof: if there are no loops then how can it be Turing-complete?
13:02:06 <Raoof> wib_jonas my conjecture is that there is a non-recursive universal function for all functions in this language
13:02:30 <wib_jonas> I don't understand your statement then
13:03:44 <Raoof> here are a few example how to program with it, you can see that all function from integer to integer are computable in the limit (meaning unbounded program length)
13:03:45 <Raoof> zero = (a) => sub(a,a)
13:03:45 <Raoof> one = (a) => inc(zero(a))
13:03:46 <Raoof> two = (a) => inc(one(a))
13:03:46 <Raoof> three = (a) => inc(two(a))
13:03:47 <Raoof> negate = (a) => sub(zero(a),a)
13:03:47 <Raoof> add = (a,b) => sub(a,negate(b))
13:03:48 <Raoof> rem = (a,b) => sub(a,mul(b,div(a,b)))
13:03:48 <Raoof> square = (a) => mul(a,a)
13:03:49 <Raoof> isNonZero = (a) => div(square(sub(square(a),one(a))),square(add(square(a),one(a))))
13:03:49 <Raoof> isZero = (a) => isNonZero(isNonZero(a))
13:03:50 <Raoof> not = (a) => isNonZero(a)
13:03:50 <Raoof> and = (a,b) => isZero(add(isZero(a),isZero(b)))
13:03:51 <Raoof> or = (a,b) => isZero(mul(a,b))
13:03:51 <Raoof> eq = (a,b) => isZero(sub(a,b))
13:03:52 <Raoof> notEq = (a,b) => not(eq(a,b))
13:03:52 <Raoof> divz = (a,b) => div(a,add(b,isNonZero(b)))
13:03:53 <Raoof> If = (a,b,c) => add(mul(isNonZero(a),b),mul(isZero(a),c))
13:05:16 <Raoof> now if you can find a non-recursive universal function then it shows that the language is turing complete
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13:06:23 <wib_jonas> but these building block functions and their compositions are computable. if you can't make an infinite loop from them then they can't be turing-complete, right?
13:09:10 <Raoof> no it is logically possible that there is a non-recursive universal function but to find it I need a breakthrough in my understanding
13:09:10 <wib_jonas> or more concretely, it looks as if whatever you compose from these building blocks will be a function that can't grow faster than a polynomial in its outputs
13:09:44 <wib_jonas> but something like that probably is
13:10:50 <Raoof> when you program a turing machine you have to encode the input similarly if you want to compute 2^n for example you have to encode the input as a unary number for example 2^11 = 4
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13:17:33 <sbak> Raoof: I saw what you were saying in the logs. I don't think it works that way. Your functions are always-terminating, and turing completeness requires non-terminating programs
13:20:29 <Raoof> sbak I'm not convinced, can you explain why we need non-terminating programs ?
13:22:46 <wib_jonas> Raoof: I still don't understand what you start with, like what domain of values at least; and if if's just integers, then how do you get a function that grows faster than a polynomial
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13:24:58 <sbak> Raoof: simple argument is that any Turing complete language needs to be able to simulate arbitrary Turing machines. An always-terminating Turing complete language would therefore solve the Halting Problem
13:25:14 <sbak> which is proven to be impossible
13:27:14 <sbak> that said, Turing completeness is not the be all end all of what makes a language useful or powerful. In practice, most programs don't really need it
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13:30:26 <Raoof> I've got disconnect for a few minutes, did I missed any messages ?
13:30:54 <sbak> possibly. Let me copy them for you
13:31:08 <sbak> <sbak> Raoof: simple argument is that any Turing complete language needs to be able to simulate arbitrary Turing machines. An always-terminating Turing complete language would therefore solve the Halting Problem
13:31:13 <sbak> <sbak> which is proven to be impossible
13:31:17 <sbak> <sbak> that said, Turing completeness is not the be all end all of what makes a language useful or powerful. In practice, most programs don't really need it
13:34:06 <Raoof> sbak thanks. halting function is non-computable (because Turing-Machine is a non-computable language) even if this language turn out to be turing complete
13:34:55 <Raoof> sbak in my understanding non-recursive is different than non-computable
13:35:32 <sbak> by the definition of Turing-completeness, a Turing-complete language needs to be able to simulate _any_ Turing machine. Including non-terminating ones.
13:35:44 <sbak> therefore a Turing-complete language has non-terminating programs
13:37:31 <Raoof> I thought that Turing-completeness means to be able to compute all total computable function, I change my conjecture this language can compute all total computable functions
13:37:58 <wib_jonas> Raoof: how do you get a power function, like a function f such that for any nonnegative integer x, f(x) is equal to 2 to the power of x ?
13:41:01 <Raoof> wib_jonas if you want to compute an exponential function you have to encode the input as a unary number for example 4 in unary is 1111 or we can use 9 as the unary symbol and use 9999 so f(9999) = 16
13:43:01 <wib_jonas> Raoof: er no, now you're inputting in unary but outputting in binary, that's cheating. or if you insist then compute a double exponential with that encoding.
13:49:17 <Raoof> wib_jonas I don't understand why that is cheating, can you explain ? I don't think double exponential makes a difference but I have to think about that
13:51:32 <wib_jonas> Raoof: you're using a different encoding for the input than for the output, and since the input is encoded in a way that's exponentially larger then sure, then you can get one exponential. but if you want to implement all total functions from integers to integers then you need to implement arbitrarily fast growing functions, just one or two or
13:51:32 <wib_jonas> three exponential doesn't cut it, you need to be able to implement ackermann too. but these building blocks look like they can't grow any faster than just a polynomial, which is why I asked for an exponential.
14:04:05 <Raoof> wib_jonas if you have a universal function then you can define ack(m,n) = u(g(m,n),m,n) , where g(m,n) is a substitution function for ack
14:06:22 <Raoof> wib_jonas do you think that doesn't work ?
14:06:43 <wib_jonas> Raoof: I don't understand what you're saying or how this is related to what you were saying earlier about those sub and mul and div and inc functions
14:08:19 <Raoof> if you defined g and u then you can define ack
14:09:22 <wib_jonas> what is g and u and how do you get them from composing those earlier functions?
14:12:47 <Raoof> wib_jonas that is the breakthrough that I need in my understanding, it is not obvious to me that they don't exist
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14:22:21 <wib_jonas> ok, then either you'll need to prove that any multi-variate function that you compose from those building blocks is bound in magnitude by a polynomial of the magnitudes of its inputs; or, if you get past that by modifying the building blocks to avoid that problem, then I'd need to figure out how the diagonal argument works to prove why this kind of
14:22:22 <wib_jonas> thing with just total functions as building blocks, and I'm not ready for that right now
14:36:51 <wib_jonas> basically, consider a reasonable numbering of all the compositions of your building blocks. consider S, a function such that S(p) is one plus the result of the composition numbered p called on the integer p. Since your building blocks are total and computable, S is also computable and total. you claim that you can get any computable total function
14:36:51 <wib_jonas> as a composition of your building blocks. so let s be the numbering of the composition that computes S. then you get S(s) = 1 + S(s) a contradiction. normally you avoid this problem because you use at least one non-total building block, and S(s) will just be an infinite loop or other error.
14:38:40 <Raoof> wib_jonas you can't use diagonal argument, diagonal argument is blocked by div operation
14:39:09 <wib_jonas> Raoof: what do you mean by blocked? didn't you define div as a total function too?
14:39:52 <Raoof> wib_jonas yes n/0 = gapped n
14:40:44 <wib_jonas> then what do you mean by "blocked"?
14:42:52 <Raoof> because n/0 returns a gapped value you can't define a diagonal function
15:08:06 <Raoof> wib_jonas if you send a message in the pass 25 minutes I didn't get it
15:19:56 <wib_jonas> Raoof: if it's the "one plus" in the definition of S above that is your problem, because it's not defined for the kind of value that div(1, 0) returns, then let's just say S(p) gives 500 instead if calling the composition numbered p on the integer p returns a non-integer value.
15:24:44 <Raoof> wib_jonas not you can define S but you can NOT diagonalize it, because S(s) returns s+1 but there is no contradiction because s+1 is a gapped value
15:26:10 <Raoof> the definition of S is such that when you give it the input s it divide by zero and returns s+1
15:28:55 <Raoof> I mean it could returns any gapped value
15:32:39 <Raoof> I must have said "gap value" instead of "gapped value" I don't know why I wrote "gapped"
15:34:14 <wib_jonas> I still don't understand what you're saying about why the diagonal argument wouldn't work.
15:43:27 <Raoof> wib_jonas you defined S as S(p) = 1+u(p,p) and you get a contradiction by calling S on s but that does not work because u(p,p) returns a gap value
15:45:11 <Raoof> 1+a gap value = a gap value so no contradiction
15:49:18 <Raoof> you defined S(p) = 1 + u(p,p) to get a contradiction but S(s) = u(s,s) because u(s,s) is a gap value
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15:52:45 <wib_jonas> Not about the above, https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8088 about the 2 symbol 5 state Turing machine busy beaver
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16:06:09 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
16:39:48 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131993&oldid=131884 * Gggfr * (+50) /* Looks Like */
16:44:06 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131994&oldid=131993 * Gggfr * (+122) /* General Ideas */
16:45:11 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131995&oldid=131994 * Gggfr * (+0) /* General Ideas */
16:58:04 <esolangs> [[Billiards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131996&oldid=74319 * Gggfr * (-9)
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17:53:52 <ais523> Raoof: there is a computational class called ELEMENTARY, which has inspired various esolangs that don't seem to be documented on the wiki
17:53:52 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELEMENTARY#Basis_for_ELEMENTARY
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17:54:17 <ais523> Raoof: I suspect your language is ELEMENTARY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELEMENTARY
17:54:58 <ais523> although, hmm, ELEMENTARY requires some sort of exponentiation to exist (even if it's just 2**x)
17:56:08 <ais523> I've been meaning to write up (some concrete version of) ELEMENTARY on the wiki for a while, it's a fun language
17:56:15 <ais523> sub-TC but can do things like primality checking
17:56:47 <Raoof> ais523 does it have a universal function ?
17:57:55 <ais523> not within itself – because it's computable, there are universal functions for it but you have to define them in some other language
17:58:23 <ais523> or, hmm, I am not 100% certain that it doesn't have a self-interpreter – more like 90%
17:59:45 <ais523> ELEMENTARY cannot do a tetration, that might be enough to be able to prove it unable to self-interpret given reasonable program encodings
18:01:12 <ais523> right, given a reasonable program encoding, you can start with x and y and use ELEMENTARY to generate an encoding of x**(x**(x**(x**…))) with y xs – that's just producing a repeating string which is pretty easy with this level of power
18:01:42 <ais523> so a self-interpreter can't exist because it wouldn't be able to evaluate that string – if it could, it would let you do a tetration in ELEMENTARY which is known to be impossible
18:02:45 <ais523> that said, I am not sure your language is even as powerful as ELEMENTARY – it can't obviously do an exponentiation
18:03:11 <b_jonas> ais523: so this is a smaaler class than primitive recursive functions?
18:04:29 <ais523> I think of the power of primitive recursive as "this actually can't do all total programs – but if you think of a total program off the top of your head rather than trying to construct it as a counterexample, it can probably implement it"
18:04:55 <ais523> and ELEMENTARY is like that too, people thinking of an arbitrary total function probably aren't going to think of the Ackermann function or a tetration
18:06:47 <ais523> ELEMENTARY contains EXPTIME, so it can solve any problem that doesn't need more than exponential time to solve (thus it also contains PSPACE and NP)
18:08:22 <b_jonas> and it can also solve any problem that needs double exponential time, right? because that does come up often
18:09:50 <Raoof> ais523 in this language (let's call it Ar) all function from Z to Z including non-computable functions are computable in the limit, that's makes it special I think, I also not convince that it can't compute the ackermann function because Ar blocks digonalization argument I don't know how to convince myself that it does not have a universal function
18:10:10 <ais523> b_jonas: I would expect it to, but don't have a reference/proof to hand
18:11:00 <ais523> Raoof: assuming a finitely long program (i.e. not in the limit), it can't compute the Ackermann function because it can be implemented using a primitive recursive interpreter
18:11:54 <ais523> the "in the limit" argument is interesting, if you are taking an infinitely long sequence of finite programs and then taking the limit of the results they evaluate to, you are effectively adding loops to the language
18:13:21 <ais523> and I would definitely expect it to be TC then, assuming a reasonable definition of the way in which programs are allowed to grow from one sequeence element to the next
18:13:31 <ais523> but, it's probably unnecessarily complicated for that purpose
18:14:49 <ais523> ah right, multiplication + division + modulo + an infinite loop is enough to implement https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip (and modulo is trivial to implement in terms of the operations you already have)
18:15:57 <Raoof> ais523 why do you think it's complicated ? you can easily define "if then else" "not" == < > <= >=
18:16:46 <ais523> Raoof: that's why the language is unnecessarily complicated – it's too easy to define things in it
18:16:53 <ais523> it could probably be simpler whilst still being TC
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18:17:33 <ais523> for example, you have special handling for division by zero that needs special-casing in all your primitives – but it's TC even if division by zero is considered undefined behaviour
18:18:01 <ais523> there's a tradeoff between "language is complicated but allows simple programs" and "language is simple, so the programs have to be complicated"
18:18:52 <ais523> so if the programs are too simple, it leaves me concerned that the language might be too complicated
18:19:43 <Raoof> ais523 I still don't understand why do you think it's complicated, my idea with Ar is that it is just arithmetic
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18:22:31 <Raoof> ais523 I have special-casing in my primitive in order to block the diagonalization argument so to leave it an open question whether the language has a universal function or not
18:26:11 <Raoof> ais523 you can remove all special-casing and return the empty string when division by zero occur that does not change the fact that it is in the limit super-TC
18:34:15 <Raoof> ais523 in your idea of primitive recursive interpreter, is the input in unary base or is it an integer ?
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18:35:26 <esolangs> [[ADxc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131997&oldid=72962 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+156) Introduced an examples section which embraces as its incipial member a partial geometric series generator.
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18:36:12 <esolangs> [[ADxc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131998&oldid=131997 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+185) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ADxc programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag.
18:37:24 <ais523> Raoof: I think the normal definition of primitive recursive can only take integers as input, but it doesn't really matter – primitive recursive is enough power to change between bases, including unary
18:40:21 <b_jonas> "multiplication + division + modulo + an infinite loop is enough to implement https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip" => you also need some kind of conditional to dispatch on the IP, but you can make that from multiply and divide if you also have an add constant operation, right? then you can simulate Tip or Fractran.
18:40:52 <esolangs> [[ADxc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131999&oldid=131998 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+254) Improved the code fragments' formatting and reformatted the example steps in a tabular form.
18:41:09 <ais523> b_jonas: you don't need a conditional, what you do is use a modulo chain to reduce the number to 0 or 1 and then multiply by it
18:41:24 <ais523> oh, but that needs addition
18:41:32 <ais523> maybe I am missing an operation
18:42:13 <esolangs> [[ADxc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132000&oldid=131999 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-13) Removed the duplicate Examples header erroneously introduced by myself.
18:42:39 <Raoof> ais523 assuming the input and ouput are integer and you write a function assuming that the input is in unary form, does that make the interpreter more powerful ?
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18:59:02 <sbak> huh, the idea of the limit of a sequence of finite programs is a very neat idea for an esolang actually
18:59:07 <sbak> sounds like a pain to implement though
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19:00:52 <b_jonas> sbak: maybe look at the https://esolangs.org/wiki/(0) family of languages then
19:00:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:02:32 <ais523> Raoof: it can depend on the language, but usually no for languages that aren't very restricted in terms of space or time
19:08:19 <Raoof> ais523 I have a hunch that it makes a difference because a universal function is a meta program ( it takes source code as input )
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19:19:15 <Raoof> ais523 if you have a magical universal function u(f) := f(0) and a magical substitution function g(f,n) := "substitute n in f" then you can define f(n) := u(g(f,n))
19:28:31 <ais523> Raoof: I don't think g is well defined
19:28:47 <ais523> and even if it were, it wouldn't work – there might be a different 0 somewhere that gets substituted by mistake
19:30:46 <Raoof> ais523 g is well defined I just don't know how to make it non-recursive
19:34:28 <int-e> b_jonas: Did you know that the throughput of tunnels in Shapez (if "super-charged") depends on their length? https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-tunnel-throughput-x8.png
19:35:45 <Raoof> ais523 did you noticed that Ar is just your language Blindfold-Arithmetic just unrolled ?
19:37:38 <sbak> int-e: that's cursed
19:38:21 <int-e> shikhin: note that the nominal speed here is 16/s, and the readings are divided by 2, so it's above that.
19:38:44 <b_jonas> int-e: what the heck? is that a true long-term throughput, or just some starting artifact possibly combined with imprecision of those meters?:w
19:38:46 <int-e> no idea why irssi decided to complete to that.
19:38:56 <int-e> b_jonas: it's long term at 8x speedup
19:39:53 <b_jonas> I thought they'd all limit the throughput to 16
19:40:15 <int-e> Also this is with 60 ticks per second, which undoubtedly is also relevant.
19:40:34 <b_jonas> can this be used to send high throughput to the core?
19:40:50 <int-e> I thought the same; in fact I thought that the tunnels are belts under the hood, and belts are the one thing in this game that tries to be accurate when it comes to throughput.
19:41:04 <sbak> it's wacky that miner -> splitter gives 10/s in each output of the splitter, while simply a belt is 16/s
19:41:04 <b_jonas> I agree with sbak that this is cursed
19:41:18 <int-e> yes, the hub accepts items at any rate
19:41:56 <sbak> I've been thinking about making a factory game for fun, I will definitely endeavor to make it more consistent than this
19:42:37 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but I'm not sure you can feed the tunnels fast enough. here you're feeding them from extractors, but that's very specialized, you won't have the right shapes extractable close to the hub.
19:42:40 <int-e> sbak: Right, but it's fairly well-known that balancers (what you called a splitter) are faster than there nominal speed.
19:43:22 <int-e> b_jonas: right but you can feed them with a balancer that takes one belt and a bit extra.
19:43:38 <Raoof> sbak have you played opus magnum ? are you interested in creating something like that using something like Ar as the base mechanic ?
19:43:58 <sbak> not interested in collaborations
19:44:08 <int-e> b_jonas: I have not done the pertinent experiment... namely what happens if you chain several short tunnels
19:44:09 <sbak> but yes opus magnum is good
19:45:05 <Raoof> sbak no collaborations just I give you feedback you give me the game :D
19:45:16 <sbak> nope that just sounds like doing work for free
19:46:34 <Raoof> sbak you can monetize it as your own game, I think Ar is a theory of everything so it would be cool if somebody make a game around it
19:46:50 <sbak> it's a hard no
19:47:03 <int-e> b_jonas: but (as I would expect) that works fine: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-tunnel-throughput-chained.png
19:47:31 <int-e> (I took the screenshot a bit too soon so the numbers are a bit lower than they should be)
19:48:32 <b_jonas> so how much throughput into the core can you get from this? do you get more than the 20 belts throughput that the balancer setup has (though I haven't been able to reproduce that supposed throughput myself)
19:49:16 <int-e> b_jonas: you get the usual up to 25%
19:49:40 <int-e> "usual" - the same number people get from using balancers for that purpose
19:50:23 <int-e> Well, I think. I have not actually understood how belts work internally.
19:50:29 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132001&oldid=131914 * B jonas * (+15)
19:54:33 <int-e> At the root of all this is that some parts of the game effectively have a discrete throughput (an integer number of ticks per item). At 8x speedup, that number is 6 ticks per item. It stays at that value all the way to 11.93 (IIRC) speedup.
19:55:29 <sbak> Raoof: sorry for being rude there. what I meant is, I'm not a game developer and I'm not super interested in Ar. I want to make a game for myself to learn some new skills, but I don't think I'd be able to make what you're envisioning in a reasonable amount of time and I am not invested.
19:55:29 <int-e> Which incidentally means that between 10 and ~11.93, you can only feed belts 20 items per second.
19:55:57 <int-e> Even though the nominal throughput ranges from 20 to ~23.86.
19:56:47 <b_jonas> shapez.io continues to be such an odd game
19:57:11 <sbak> b_jonas: it's written in an esolang though so I appreciate that about it
19:57:12 <Raoof> @sbak that's okay, no hard feelings.
19:57:41 <int-e> I still like the game though... but yeah it has quite a few implementation quirks. Not sure whether this is because the developer(s?) didn't try to be more precise or because they consciously traded precision for performance.
19:58:04 <sbak> Shapez 2 is shaping up to be pretty nice
19:58:11 <sbak> pun not intended actually
19:58:32 <int-e> Anyway, let me try to get a handle on the real odditity I was trying to look into. https://old.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/1dto2zq/why_does_this_cause_gaps/ can be minimized to https://int-e.eu/~bf3/r/shapez-quarterbelt-speed.png
19:59:23 <int-e> (where the top part "leaks" items at speedups between 8 and 9, and 9 and 10 (excluding the bounds)).
20:02:33 <int-e> So it looks like there's some artifact in handling that one extremely short belt.
20:03:50 <sbak> corner belts and throughput issues makes me think of the corner belt throughput issue factorio used to have
20:04:02 <sbak> where the items had hitboxes and collision was wacky in corners
20:33:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132002&oldid=131992 * Ractangle * (+108) /* Python interpreters */
20:36:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Opening square bracket]] to [[User:Ractangle/Opening square bracket]]
20:39:01 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132005&oldid=131928 * Ractangle * (+18)
20:40:34 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132006&oldid=132005 * Ractangle * (+45) /* > */
20:40:49 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132007&oldid=132006 * Ractangle * (-100) /* > */
20:43:29 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132008&oldid=132007 * Ractangle * (+31)
20:44:41 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132009&oldid=132008 * Ractangle * (+27)
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21:39:34 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132010&oldid=131149 * Salpynx * (+398) /* TODO: Esolang projects I'd like to finish or start (not necessarily complete, or in order) */
21:40:32 <ais523> salpynx: fwiw I think Countercall was proven sub-TC at some point, but I forget the details, and it wasn't me who proved it
21:42:48 <salpynx> oh ok, I saw Keymaker had looked into it and developed Vein, but there seemed to be no final conclusion about Countercall.
21:43:58 <salpynx> I feel like a similar thing happened with Footsteps -- I know I was looking to it, then got other ideas and parked it.
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21:47:09 <ais523> I might be misremembering though
21:47:14 <salpynx> I have what seems to be a working Conedy interpreter, it can output and accepts input (clumsily atm). I now need to figure out how to do basic things with it.
21:48:08 <salpynx> A truth machine would be a good first step, and I notice Trajedy has a lot of helpful guidance. I don't know how much will apply to Conedy though.
21:49:25 <salpynx> In comparison, Countercall looks more straightforward and was tempting for that reason :)
21:50:07 <ais523> Countercall starts out looking easy and then gets amazingly confusing to think about
21:50:33 <ais523> because when you try to store things on the call stack you end up stuck in a lot of nested loops with various iteration counts that you can't control very well
21:51:08 <salpynx> I had a feeling there would be a trick... my first first thought was it did look very easy... but suspiciously so
21:57:03 <sbak> interesting, is it actually more powerful than a pushdown automaton?
21:58:01 <salpynx> A bracket matching algorithm in Conedy would be satisfying. It wouldn't prove anything (other than confirm PDA), but it'd be a nice illustration of something practical. I can't yet think how to begin, but it should be an 'easy' example.
21:59:45 <salpynx> I thought I coudl squeeze bracket matching out of the Doors language recently, but that is only FSA-equivalent, despite having an infinte counter.
22:00:09 <ais523> "language that has an infinite counter but you can't use it" is possibly an esolang genre
22:00:46 <ais523> e.g. you can count up infinitely in BuzzFizz, but can only read the value of the counters modulo constants so there are only finitely many distinguishable states
22:01:09 <ais523> and this same general principle is the reason why Three Star Programmer needs three stars rather than two
22:02:41 <salpynx> I did get quite interested in that aspect, I wasn't sure if that fits the computational class + a bit extra. I concluded that it was 'extensionally equal' to a FSA, so it's not really extra power.
22:03:06 <salpynx> and, yes, it seems FSA + infinte counter is common
22:05:11 <sbak> actually thinking about it, are there systems that are more powerful than PDAs but less powerful than Turing machines? (without using silly contrivances like "it's a PDA but it has one specific program that accepts the language of squares")
22:07:00 <ais523> sbak: LBAs are semi-common
22:07:28 <sbak> oh yes I see, I forgot about those
22:08:19 <salpynx> sbak: That's the current claim about Conedy on the article
22:09:40 <ais523> it's a PDA, plus a few things that PDAs clearly can't do but aren't obviously useful for climbing up into higher computational classes
22:15:07 <salpynx> This discussion has me thinking there is value in clearly demonstrating basic FSA, then PDA equivalence for tarpit languages that are hard to reason about, before tackling TCness.
22:15:09 <sbak> so in Conedy, if there are two adjacent nets "pointing" toward each other, does the IP just get stuck in an infinite loop? like in the case aBcbCA
22:16:08 <salpynx> even if the FSA proof is trivial, just having a concrete touch point will help ground further work
22:16:26 <ais523> sbak: aBc bCa is an infinite loop, yes
22:16:56 <salpynx> also "Hitting the boundary of two nets simultaneously is undefined behaviour."
22:16:59 <ais523> without the space, it's UB because there's a point at which the IP is in two nets simultaneously
22:18:38 <sbak> oh yes I see. that didn't register to me because I was envisioning "hitting the boundary of two nets simultaneously" as _entering_ two nets simultaneously
22:18:42 <sbak> not exiting one and entering the other
22:19:11 <salpynx> I didn't code anything specific for that to shortcut calculations, or validate that nets are separated. If practical problems arise from running examples, I'll perhaps add something
22:19:27 <sbak> it is undefined behavior after all
22:25:36 <salpynx> I do wonder how many 'implemented' esolangs on the wiki have fundamentally broken interpreters which will never be noticed. Confirming I haven't just written one is going to be quite hard :)
22:26:07 <sbak> it's quite easy to make such a mistake
22:26:10 <sbak> so probably a lot
22:27:08 <ais523> I think Underload gets a special reward for this – there is part of the spec that nobody implements, not even the original interpreter
22:27:16 -!- fungot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:16 <ais523> and so it's arguably whether it's actually part of the spec or not at this point
22:27:40 <fizzie> (Rebooting the fungot box after finally going to Debian 12.)
22:28:05 <sbak> ais523: what part of the spec is that?
22:28:27 <ais523> sbak: " as an escape character to escape itself and <>[], which can't be used unescaped
22:28:51 <ais523> it's kind-of pointless because a) none of those characters are special-cased otherwise and b) it can't escape () which are the characters you'd really care about
22:29:21 <sbak> it's not a particularly hard thing to implement, I was expecting something more silly :p
22:29:26 <ais523> I also discovered that some people have written Underload interpreters to ignore (rather than crash on) unrecognised characters
22:29:45 <ais523> sbak: if you want something silly, HOMESPRING defines the character strings " . " and ". ." to cause temporal paradoxes
22:30:07 -!- fungot has joined.
22:30:21 <fungot> ais523: food is for mortals... oh wait... i think that's great, too. pity that's the following week. i'm not really sure whether i will yet.
22:31:46 <ais523> huh, in my client, everyone who's spoken recently has a nick in the cyan-purple range, except lambdabot who is gray and still fits within the range, and fungot, whose green nick came as a bit of a surprise because it disturbed the color-coordination
22:31:46 <fungot> ais523: taking a stack-based approach. let me find the list of his children
22:31:48 <sbak> fungot has realized its own mortality it seems
22:31:49 <fungot> sbak: " always prefer the probable impossible to the the bytecoded implementations?'
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22:33:37 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/colors.png <- also all pretty similar, hue-wise.
22:33:49 <sbak> I've been working on a funge-98 interpreter actually. planning to implement TRDS next, that's gonna be fun
22:34:19 <ais523> how does it do on Mycology?
22:34:42 <sbak> passes everything except BADs on the >128 ASCII character because I haven't fiddled with character encodings yet
22:35:10 <sbak> it's supposed to be 0xDE but ends up as 0xFFDE
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22:37:17 <sbak> I've done all the fingerprints defined in the official spec too, except for TURT and PERL which I don't know if I'm even gonna do
22:37:25 <fizzie> Looks like there've been a handful of cfunge commits since the version 'got is running on, too.
22:37:27 <sbak> some of the fingerprints seem, dare I say, "too serious"
22:39:16 <sbak> though I noticed FPSP and FPDP don't have any greater-than comparison, making comparison absolutely silly for floating point numbers. wonder if that's on purpose to make them more silly
22:40:12 <ais523> it was possibly an oversight
22:40:27 <ais523> esoteric libraries are commonly designed and implemented without actually being used much
22:40:41 <ais523> so obvious oversights can exist without people noticing for a while
22:41:26 <sbak> I've been thinking about defining an FPCP fingerprint (floating point comparison) just to fix that lol
22:42:07 <ais523> you could have options for how to handle NaN and negative zero in the comparisons
22:42:27 <ais523> and whether infinities are equal to themselves
22:42:44 <sbak> hmm it would be kind of funny if it had an absurd amount of instructions just so it's inconvenient to use in conjunction with FP(S/D)P
22:43:45 <sbak> actually, not an absurd amount, just enough to cover the same letters as FP(S/D)P's basic arithmetic
22:43:47 <ais523> "this fingerprint might be badly designed, but it's badly designed for a reason!"
22:44:04 <sbak> and that reason is being funny
22:44:17 <fizzie> fungot uses the STRN, FILE, FING, SOCK, REXP, TOYS and SUBR fingerprints (with the last two only used for ^reload and ^code, respectively).
22:44:18 <fungot> fizzie: you may pick one of two function pointers. :)
22:44:30 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, I'll pick the second one.
22:44:31 <fungot> fizzie: however, it tends not to be the same for scheme48 as for anything else than stand up.
22:46:07 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:46:18 <fizzie> It's an admin-only command that runs the line using SUBR as Funge-98 code.
22:46:31 <fizzie> The idea being that I could use it to fix issues without having to restart.
22:46:40 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever managed to fix anything without breaking it more.
22:48:21 <sbak> but yeah my implementation is decently fast I think but probably takes more memory than necessary and isn't really optimized for performance either
22:48:58 <sbak> but hey at least I gave some thought to the time complexity of my funge-space :p
22:49:05 <sbak> it's not an n-D array!
22:51:31 <salpynx> which bot here can evaluate funge-98 code in IRC msgs? I'm sure there is one, but I can't remember the command
22:52:19 <salpynx> bf != BeFunge obviously, but I don't know how to abbreviate funge-98
22:52:41 <fizzie> HackEso/HackEgo has inherited the functionality of EgoBot, which included a bunch of interpreters, but they're quite hard to use.
22:53:20 <Sgeo> bytepusher.wat:3:6: error: only one memory block allowed
22:53:20 <Sgeo> (memory $video 4) ;; Video data in ImageData format
22:53:38 <Sgeo> Need to update the tools I guess? argh
22:53:45 <fizzie> `! befunge98 "dlrow ,olleh">:#,_@
22:54:00 <fizzie> It used some sort of pretty obscure interpreter, as I recall.
22:54:12 <fizzie> Also the repository browser is apparently borked.
22:54:27 <HackEso> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url /hackenv/ibin/ for a list.
22:54:39 <fizzie> The recommended `url command gives a 502.
22:54:56 <HackEso> 1l \ 2l \ 7 \ adjust \ asm \ asmbf \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ brachylog \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
22:55:13 <fizzie> Anyway, those would be the things you can use with `! except I'm sure some of them won't work.
22:55:53 <ais523> `! cintercal DO :1 <- #123$#456 DO READ OUT :1 PLEASE GIVE UP
22:55:56 <HackEso> /usr/bin/ld: /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/../lib/libick.a(cesspool.o): relocation R_X86_64_PC32 against symbol `strcmp@@GLIBC_2.2.5' can not be used when making a PIE object; recompile with -fPIC \ /usr/bin/ld: /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/../lib/libick.a(ick_lose.o): relocation R_X86_64_PC32 against symbol `fflush@@GLIBC_2.2.5' can not be used when making a PIE object; recompile with -fPIC \ /usr/bin/ld: /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst
22:56:40 <ais523> forced PIE has caused problems for me in the past in other contexts
22:57:39 <ais523> I'm not particularly annoyed with OSes forcing it on, but I am annoyed with there not being enough care to prevent bad side effects
22:58:11 <ais523> in this case, the problem is just that libick.a was built non-PIC and can't be linked into a PIE
22:58:20 <ais523> or, well, I think that's what it is
22:59:42 <fizzie> I have absolutely no recollection how the repo browser is configured, it's using hgweb and there's uWSGI involved but that's about it.
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23:00:33 <fizzie> Looks like it's trying to load /usr/lib/uwsgi/plugins/python_plugin.so and there's only a python3_plugin.so in there, so I guess it's that.
23:01:41 <sbak> hey btw I've come across mentions of some elusive Funge-108 or Funge-109
23:01:45 <sbak> it seems to not quite really exist
23:02:52 <fizzie> I feel like that was an effort from the cfunge author that sort of died off.
23:03:27 <ais523> there was definitely work on it but I'm not sure if that work ever finished
23:03:36 <fizzie> Around 2008/2009, as you might guess from the name.
23:03:50 <sbak> I see, makes sense
23:10:18 <fizzie> Huh, there's a pretty heavy traffic to /repo paths from all kinds of crawlers, wouldn't have expected that.
23:10:22 <salpynx> that's Seed, I added that ages ago, but the output is funge-98. There is a way to pipe it back into HackEso, but it's kinda horrible
23:11:07 <fizzie> Anthropic's ClaudeBot/1.0 was interested in /repo/rev/02ea44c6f666?revcount=7 and Amazonbot/0.1 wanted to see /repo/file/1281dde9cef7/paste/paste.29626, for example.
23:11:13 <sbak> fizzie: the linalg boxes want their training data
23:14:57 <HackEso> /hackenv/ibin/lazyk: 28: /hackenv/ibin/lazyk: /hackenv/interps/lazyk/lazy.bin: not found
23:15:14 <ais523> fungot is possibly not good training data for anything other than Befunge programs (and I don't think generative AI would do very well with Befunge)
23:15:15 <fungot> ais523: http://schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ r5rs-z-h-9.html%_idx_438 or something with black bg and a dark green grid
23:15:54 <sbak> github copilot tried to help me implement Funge operations when I started writing my interpreter
23:16:03 <sbak> it wasn't very good at it though
23:16:32 <sbak> it seemed vaguely aware of what Funge is though
23:17:34 <fizzie> Ah, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/ibin works again.
23:17:44 <fizzie> And seems like I misremembered and `befunge98` just uses cfunge.
23:18:07 <fizzie> `` /hackenv/interps/cfunge/cfunge -v
23:18:08 <HackEso> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds -ncurses p:64 c:32] \ \ Platform: x86_64 \ OS: Linux \ Compiler path: /usr/bin/gcc \ Compiler: GCC 4.7.2 (or compatible) \ Build type: Release \ Compiled on: Linux 3.1-5.slh.2-aptosid-amd64 (x86_64) \ \ CFLAGS=" -O3 -DNDEBUG" \ LDFLAGS=" "
23:18:22 <fizzie> Not even an incredibly old one.
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23:24:25 <salpynx> fungot, write a program in bf that outputs your name
23:24:26 <fungot> salpynx: thanks all. :) ( even if you used a 4-ary operator in prefix but a binary operator in infix. all expressions appear in between parenthesis. if you want
23:25:20 <sbak> the main thing I optimized for in writing my funge implementation is making it as easy as possible for me to write new instructions for fingerprints, which was a fun little puzzle
23:25:24 <salpynx> generative ai will be about as successful as that, but a bit more convincing at first glance
23:25:46 <sbak> it looks a bit like this https://i.postimg.cc/SKXrRTxs/image.png
23:27:09 <sbak> salpynx: "not very good, but convincing at first glance" describes generative AI perfectly honestly
23:33:57 -!- sbak has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:37:19 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
23:38:19 <fizzie> Per ChatGPT, that was supposed to output "ChatGPT". It even explained how: https://chatgpt.com/share/d8df2bc6-2d6f-46c7-b54c-2699dd64fc04
23:38:51 <salpynx> lol, I was about to joke that's a best case scenario of how an ai would respond to that prompt!
23:39:15 <salpynx> I thought you were just testing f_ngot's bf ability!
23:40:48 <fizzie> Also asked for a Befunge program -- updated at the same link.
23:41:15 <fizzie> It wrote one with a rolled-out print loop and for some reason it outputs "ChaTGPt", which is an interesting capitalization.
23:41:24 <salpynx> I had similar interactions with chatGPT quite some time ago, if you were lucky it'd copy and paste exact working code from somewhere, unlucking it would modify it with totall incorrect symbols or layout
23:42:32 <fizzie> Asked it to use a loop instead, and now it prints "Hello, World!" again. Heh.
23:43:01 <fizzie> Except the loop's misaligned by one column so it actually just immediately exits after pushing the string to stack.
23:43:58 <fizzie> Besides, even a junior Befunge programmer should know the linear >:#,_ print loop is superior.
23:44:23 <ais523> I like using k for print loops
23:44:46 <ais523> I think it's because I've basically only used Befunge in cod golfing competitions and k is shortest
23:45:49 <ais523> anyway, I somehow suspect that there are so many BF hello worlds around that it finds it hard to write other things
23:46:00 <salpynx> I had a funny one with quantum circuits, it was surprisingly convincing, but it was getting something wrong. I simplified it down to two non-interacting qubits
23:46:20 <salpynx> turns out the ai could not imagine a 2 qubit cicuit where entanglement wasn't invloved
23:47:28 <salpynx> it could explain how the qubits did not interact, but them would go into detail about the resulting superposition. Apparently no one posts non-interacting qubit examples online
23:48:17 <ais523> hmm, an interesting BF-string-printing-related problem: suppose you can initialise the tape arbitrarily, then need to print a given string in the fewest characters possible, but don't know what the string is when you're initialising the tape
23:48:44 <ais523> so you're trying to initialise it to make arbitrary strings as tersely printable as possible
23:49:04 <ais523> there are almost certainly initialisations that are much better than all-zeroes
23:49:25 <ais523> (this isn't a precisely defined problem, just a general area of thought)
23:50:05 <salpynx> some kind of QWERTY cell layout (but for letter frequency not typewriter concerns)?
23:50:34 <ais523> BF string printing generally eventually comes down to adjusting multiple counters
23:50:56 <ais523> although there was one hello world program, that was the record holder for length at the time, which had a [>.] to print four characters
23:51:59 <salpynx> you'd want to just use ><. mainly, hmmm. I think I've done this before and sometimes for uncommon characters +- _is_ quicker than moving cells
23:52:41 <ais523> I have the impression that they use quite a lot of +-, <> are also used but to a lesser extent
23:53:05 <ais523> maybe the perfect tape initialisation would lead to programs where the <> were balanced with the +-
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23:55:25 <salpynx> I remember now, I was using bf to generate bf symbols, and had to optimise for this on a limited alphabet +-.,[]<>
23:56:13 <salpynx> ... that's the same problem, but with a reduced alphabet
23:56:27 <HackEso> 85 +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>++.>.-------.>-.<<++++.+++++++++.++++. [268]
23:56:32 <fizzie> `! bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>++.>.-------.>-.<<++++.+++++++++.++++.
23:56:57 <salpynx> wow, did you just add that, or was it always there?
23:57:00 <ais523> bf_txtgen has a very rigid template that it wants to fit all its programs into
23:57:04 <ais523> it's been there for a very long time
23:57:18 <ais523> I think it dates back to the HackEgo days?
23:57:38 <fizzie> Yeah, that's why it's under `! like that.
23:58:19 <fizzie> There's an option to set the number of cells used in the initialization, but it has to be set /a priori/, so to say.
00:00:51 <fizzie> `` cd /hackenv/interps/bf_txtgen; java textgen -g 1000 -t 3 -i <(echo -n ChatGPT) | tail -n 2 | head -n 1
00:00:57 <HackEso> 83 +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++++<<<-]>++.>.-------.>-.<<++++.+++++++++.++++. [136]
00:01:30 <fizzie> And it's still the same structure, just changes how many >s there are in the one single loop.
00:07:17 <salpynx> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++>+++++>+++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>---.<<.-.>>++.++++.<<.+++++++++++...>------------..<.......>.>-----------.-----------------------------.-------------------...<...>.<.>>----.<<<...>...>.<..+++++++++++++++++++..--....<++.>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<++.<..>>+++.<.<+.-..>>-.....<<+.>--.<---.>>+.<++.<.>>.---.<<.>>.<<..>>+++.
00:07:17 <fungot> `! bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.-------.<+.>+.+++++.
00:08:48 <salpynx> well, that went further than I expected, but fungot missed having the last word
00:08:48 <fungot> salpynx: otherwise i'll either explain more or stop in case of error.
00:09:02 <ais523> salpynx: so much effort was put into preventing bot loops in this channel
00:09:20 <ais523> basically because a lot of effort was put into finding them, but when someone was successful, it needed one of the bot operators or one of the ops to clean it up
00:09:30 <ais523> different bots use different anti-looping mechanisms though
00:09:37 <ais523> I think fungot just has a list of bots it refuses to listen to
00:09:37 <fungot> ais523: won't the pointers be updated upon copy? ( forgive my naivete)
00:09:52 <ais523> I can't remember how it works though
00:09:58 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:10:19 <ais523> maybe even showing the list is admin-only
00:10:48 <fungot> ^(HackEso|lambdabot|metasepia|idris-bot|blsqbot|j-bot|esolangs|velik|perlbot|m0ther)!
00:11:21 <fizzie> It's a regexp (hence the REXP fingerprint) applied to the nick!user@host prefix of the message.
00:11:43 <ais523> oh, I see, the ! at the end is part of the nick
00:11:53 <ais523> I initially interpreted it as an Underload comment
00:12:00 <ais523> (not the nick itself, but what IRC sends when a nick is involved)
00:14:18 <fizzie> I think HackEso's botloop avoidance, on the other hand, is just a zero-width space added at the beginning of the message when it's non-alphanumeric, or something along those lines.
00:15:40 <salpynx> ^bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++>+++++++>++>++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>++++.>-----.<.+++++++++++++++++.+++.>+++++..-.<.>++
00:16:28 <salpynx> oops, didn't copy the final . :(
00:16:40 <ais523> fizzie: right, and that's why HackEgo can see fungot's comments – fungot's prevention is on receiving and HackEgo's on sending, so there's no prevention on messages going the other way
00:16:40 <fungot> ais523: and you need a site map... just for quick program development, where you can find a couple of years
00:17:33 <fizzie> If/when I add the LLM to the esolangs bot, that's going to be a novel new botloop vector. The way it's written currently, it only reacts to messages with an "esolangs[:;,]" prefix, and adds a "nick: " prefix in its reply, which could easily get it stuck in a conversation loop with fungot for example.
00:17:33 <fungot> fizzie: these records are called /continuations/. a continuation is
00:18:29 <fizzie> But fungot has that "only up to 3 replies in a row to the same person" rule, and it seems to take at least a minute for the LLM to generate a response (the way I'm using it), so at least it'll be a very slow loop.
00:18:29 <fungot> fizzie: if i quoted something to you, either one of the paragraphs
00:19:16 <ais523> a very slow and non-infinite loop, so probably not a problem
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00:26:56 <ais523> one of my biggest annoyances with IRC is that backspace and return are right next to each other on typical keyboards, so silly things can happen when trying to correct a typo
00:35:37 <int-e> Yay I figured out the quarter turn belt thing. It's too short :-) https://old.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/1dto2zq/why_does_this_cause_gaps/ has a relatively lengthy reply with some details.
00:40:08 <int-e> (b_jonas might care)
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01:14:15 <b_jonas> "<ais523> [...] nick in the cyan-purple range" => I changed my other nick from wob_jonas to wib_jonas specifically to make it green instead of being in that range
01:14:31 <b_jonas> on https://logs.esolangs.org/ that is
01:17:44 <b_jonas> "<ais523> [...] Underload interpreters to ignore unrecognised characters" => is that https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tarski ? it says "All other characters are Nops."
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01:31:33 <fizzie> Remember those Google Search Console stats I shared of the wiki the other day? Turns out they were probably mostly nonsensical, because I'd originally (back in 2016) added it as an "URL prefix" of `http://esolangs.org/`, which excludes HTTPS pages, as opposed to a "Domain" (which includes both HTTP and HTTPS, and all subdomains). And most wiki traffic is HTTPS.
01:32:20 <fizzie> I've now verified it as a domain, though it says it'll take a day to start showing any numbers.
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01:41:48 <b_jonas> "so much effort was put into preventing bot loops in this channel" => so much that I even chased away a promising newbie when they put a bot online but I found that it allows me to send any IRC command so I did so.
01:42:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: http only? that's good to know
01:42:48 <b_jonas> I'll be interested in the better stats then
01:46:28 <fizzie> Only realized that because I noticed for the site registered as an URL prefix, 95% of pages were listed as "not indexed", most of them with the reason "Alternative page with proper canonical tag", which AFAICT is because MediaWiki generates a <link rel="canonical" href="https://esolangs.org/wiki/Foo"/> on the page, so Google considers the HTTPS version the "default" one and marks the others as
01:47:27 <fizzie> (Not sure why that doesn't apply to _all_ the pages, but who knows.)
01:48:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132011&oldid=131898 * B jonas * (-166)
01:49:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe because the logs pages don't have such a link tag
01:50:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132012&oldid=132011 * Ais523 * (+255) restore sandbox header
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02:40:15 <salpynx> I see the Seed page has a TC demonstration program beginning with 112 1500594...
02:40:52 <salpynx> it outputs a funge-98 program which uses = for a system-execute, which calls to perl
02:41:36 <salpynx> `! befunge98 "'e}5$||2$:/))5$4$()5$3$((/qq?3${})\))2?(())\))2?(()\))2?((S(\(\|)\))\*)2?((\|](^[(K(\|I((\{s elihw1'ep- lrep"=@
02:43:06 <salpynx> so I know that had no input, but I can only get (IK) -> K to work. I can't tell is there a bug in the perl, befunge-98 implementation details around =, or OS dependent issues
02:44:23 <salpynx> I think this is either a befunge98 or perl question, but I'm trying to figure out the syntax to demonstrate that K and S work in that code
02:46:50 <b_jonas> ``` rev <<<"'e}5$||2$:/))5$4$()5$3$((/qq?3${})\))2?(())\))2?(()\))2?((S(\(\|)\))\*)2?((\|](^[(K(\|I((\{s elihw1'ep- lrep"
02:46:51 <HackEso> bash: command substitution: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `\)' \ bash: command substitution: line 0: `(/qq?3${})\)' \ perl -pe'1while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?255))/:$2||$5}e'
02:47:32 <b_jonas> ``` rev <<<\''e}5$||2$:/))5$4$()5$3$((/qq?3${})\))2?(())\))2?(()\))2?((S(\(\|)\))\*)2?((\|](^[(K(\|I((\{s elihw1'\''ep- lrep'
02:47:33 <HackEso> perl -pe'1while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?2))\)}{$3?qq/(($3$5)($4$5))/:$2||$5}e'
02:53:29 <salpynx> `` perl -pe'1while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?2))\)}{$3?qq/(($3$5)($4$5))/:$2||$5}e' <<< "(IK)"
02:54:27 <salpynx> thanks, the backslash escaping is one level, I _think_ that's done correctly, but was worried it might be very environment dependent
02:58:03 <salpynx> maybe the perl is wrong, this makes no sense to me:
02:58:06 <salpynx> `` perl -pe'1while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?2))\)}{$3?qq/(($3$5)($4$5))/:$2||$5}e' <<< "(K(I)(I))
02:58:07 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
02:58:30 <salpynx> `` perl -pe'1while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?2))\)}{$3?qq/(($3$5)($4$5))/:$2||$5}e' <<< "(K(I)(I))"
02:59:57 <salpynx> well, at least I know I in perl territory now, unless there's another escaping issue in addition to backslashes
03:02:20 <ais523> the Perl would be a lot easier to use if it used some other character for bracketing purposes rather than ()
03:02:28 <ais523> <> don't need escaping in regexes, for example
03:06:20 <ais523> `` perl -pe'1while s{<(I|<K([^<]|<(?2)*>)>|\<<S((?2))>((?2))>)((?2))>}{$3?qq/<<$3$5><$4$5>>/:$2||$5}e # the same program with <> not ()' <<< "<K<I><I>>"
03:07:00 <ais523> `` perl -pe'1while s{<(I|<K([^<]|<(?2)*>)>|\<<S((?2))>((?2))>)((?2))>}{$3?qq/<<$3$5><$4$5>>/:$2||$5}e # the same program with <> not ()' <<< "<<KI>I>"
03:07:10 <ais523> program is right but input is wrong :-)
03:07:43 <ais523> `` perl -pe'1while s{<(I|<K([^<]|<(?2)*>)>|\<<S((?2))>((?2))>)((?2))>}{$3?qq/<<$3$5><$4$5>>/:$2||$5}e # the same program with <> not ()' <<< "<K<II>>"
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03:23:18 <salpynx> ais523: thank you! that makes the code much clearer, and now I can see it working with ().
03:24:27 <salpynx> It's quite hard to group combinators properly when you *have* to. The unlambda ``kii style is much easier to work with
03:26:28 <salpynx> `` perl -pe'1while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?2))\)}{$3?qq/(($3$5)($4$5))/:$2||$5}e' <<< "(((((SK)K)K)(IK))S)"
03:26:50 <salpynx> demonstrates I K and S all behaving correctly
03:26:58 <ais523> `` perl -pE'say while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?2))\)}{$3?qq/(($3$5)($4$5))/:$2||$5}e' <<< "(((((SK)K)K)(IK))S)"
03:27:00 <HackEso> ((((KK)(KK))(IK))S) \ \ ((K(IK))S) \ \ (IK) \ \ K \ \ K
03:27:15 <ais523> `` perl -lpE'say while s{\((I|\(K([^(]|\((?2)*\))\)|\(\(S((?2))\)((?2))\))((?2))\)}{$3?qq/(($3$5)($4$5))/:$2||$5}e' <<< "(((((SK)K)K)(IK))S)"
03:27:16 <HackEso> ((((KK)(KK))(IK))S) \ ((K(IK))S) \ (IK) \ K \ K
03:29:35 <salpynx> that's neat, it's showing the intermediate steps as the expression is reduced. That's not as magic as I first thought it was, but it seemed impressive!
03:38:05 <salpynx> and it reduces correctly on the tio.run Seed interpreter, which is what I was wanting to see. The URL is to long to post. It's super impressive that the seed was found and it works.
03:41:02 <salpynx> ... biggest problem is between keyboard and chair in formatting the input correctly. The documentation is lacking tho, I might document the example on the article, or a a link to tio
04:22:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132013&oldid=131962 * Sgeo * (+156) /* Langton Ant missing */ new section
04:27:34 <Sgeo> zzo38, is your Munching Squares BytePusher program supposed to have audio? Because if it isn't, I have a bug
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04:43:40 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132014&oldid=131746 * None1 * (+24) /* Python 3 */ fix
04:44:39 <esolangs> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132015&oldid=129746 * Sgeo * (+171) New implementation
04:45:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132016&oldid=131933 * None1 * (+156) /* How does the program actually work? */
04:48:40 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132017&oldid=131959 * None1 * (+2)
04:49:59 <Raoof> ais523 have you studied cellular automatas or Tilings ? did you know any CA or Tiles set that I can map Ar into it ?
04:53:04 <Sgeo> https://github.com/Sgeo/BytePusherWASM/blob/main/bytepusher.wat really thinking I should have used folded instructions. This... is going to confuse me in the future
04:53:43 <ais523> Raoof: cellular automata are bad at arithmetic
04:54:26 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do not remember for sure, but I think it does have audio.
04:54:32 <ais523> you could probably compile from a Turing machine into a very complex automaton, but there's no real reason to do so
04:56:15 <Sgeo> So, if I write WebAssembly by hand, but use a tool to make said WebAssembly more readable than the janky way I wrote it... well, I don't really have a question beyond losing bragging rights >.>
04:58:02 <zzo38> However, I think the only reason it has audio is because I did not deliberately get rid of it; I did not deliberately add audio.
05:03:37 <Raoof> ais523 I have an idea about turning the four operations in Ar into a single universal operation like a non-periodic monotile, do you know any language like this ?
05:06:26 <ais523> Raoof: some combinator-based languages can do it, e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Iota
05:12:23 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132018&oldid=132014 * None1 * (+41) /* Examples */
05:13:29 <Raoof> ais523 thanks for the link, I've seen iota before but I haven't figure out how to make the connection between lambda expressions and arithmetic expressions
05:14:41 <ais523> well it's quite indirect – lambda calculus can simulate arithmetic on nonnegative integers using Church numerals, but normally there are better ways to write things
05:15:08 <ais523> (and you can use arithmetic on nonnegative integers as primitives to do arithmetic on other sorts of computable number)
05:21:41 <Raoof> ais523 church numerals for example 1 = \f.\x.f x looks like a universal function in disguise but I don't know how to get rid of non-terminating lambda expression
05:26:06 <ais523> well, with many evaluation strategies, it's the identity function
05:26:34 <ais523> the identity function isn't normally considered a universal function, because you need another universal function to encode the input
05:27:09 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132019&oldid=132018 * None1 * (+241) /* Examples */
05:29:21 <esolangs> [[ORK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132020&oldid=124375 * None1 * (+250) /* Examples */
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05:42:48 <Raoof> ais523 it looks as if that there is single universal operation and all function application are secretly using it, for example you can think of Y = \f. (\x. f (x x)) (\x. f (x x)) as Y(f) = u(\x.u(f,u(x,x)),\x.u(f,u(x,x))) but it seems like you can't get ride of non-terminating expression
05:50:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tables]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132021 * EvyLah * (+246) Created page with "{| class="wikitable" |- ! Useless number !! Message |- | 0 || {| class="wikitable" |- ! actual message !! sign |- | what a wild page about tables. || ~~~~ |} |}"
06:10:53 <esolangs> [[+Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132022&oldid=129291 * EvyLah * (+85) /* Examples */ fixed repeating output
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07:27:32 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132023&oldid=132009 * Ractangle * (-5)
07:28:02 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132024&oldid=132023 * Ractangle * (+25)
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08:51:15 <b_jonas> ais523: as for those conditionals from integer arithmetic operations, (3*x)/(3*x-1) results in 1 if x is positive or 0 otherwise, and (3*x*x)/(3*x*x-1) results in 1 if x is nonzero or 0 otherwise. if you can add any nonzero integer constant m as an operation besides multiplication and divison, you can use that to add 1 by writing (x*m+m)/m instead of x+1, and similarly to subtract 1 you write
08:51:21 <b_jonas> (x*(-m)+m)/m, basically multiplication and division by anything is powerful. only then you need a somewhat unusual way to do a conditional if you can only add constants: if you have a condition c that's either 0 or 1, such as from those comparisons before, then you need to write (c*(x-1)+1)*((1-c)*(y-1)+1) to get x when c is 1 or y when c is 0. this gets ugly quickly.
08:53:13 <ais523> so +-*/ by constants is enough
08:53:51 <ais523> need to be able to copy values and combine, e.g. the / above isn't by a constant
08:54:06 <ais523> I should go to bed, too tired to reason about this
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09:28:20 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132025 * Yayimhere * (+77) Created page with "i want to make a esolang where code looks somewhat like this: 1|2x"
09:30:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132026&oldid=132025 * Yayimhere * (+80)
09:36:18 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132027&oldid=131584 * None1 * (+78) /* */
09:38:53 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132028&oldid=130374 * Yayimhere * (+77)
09:39:05 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132029&oldid=132028 * Yayimhere * (+0)
09:39:59 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132030&oldid=132029 * Yayimhere * (-77)
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09:43:22 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132031&oldid=132026 * Yayimhere * (+4)
09:45:26 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132032&oldid=132031 * Yayimhere * (+27)
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10:17:24 <wib_jonas> yes, I'm doing multiplication and integer division with non-constants as both arguments. also I forgot to mention it, but the above formulas work no matter whether those divisions round the quotient towards zero (truncating division) or round towards negative infinity (floor division)
10:18:54 <wib_jonas> if you have a language like this, it may be worth to specify division as allowing either implementation-defined, since which one is more convenient can depend on how you're implementing it. those formulas don't work in *all* flavors of integer division out there, but these are two common ones.
10:20:57 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132033&oldid=132032 * Yayimhere * (+273)
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10:46:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132034&oldid=132033 * Yayimhere * (+72)
10:47:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132035&oldid=132030 * Yayimhere * (+56)
10:48:47 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132036&oldid=132034 * Yayimhere * (+57)
10:49:03 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132037&oldid=132036 * Yayimhere * (+6)
10:50:42 <esolangs> [[ThreadFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132038&oldid=122135 * None1 * (-1) /* Lock 2 */
10:51:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132039&oldid=132037 * Yayimhere * (-3)
10:51:51 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132040&oldid=132039 * Yayimhere * (-2)
10:52:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132041&oldid=132040 * Yayimhere * (+2)
10:54:42 <cpressey> Computer programming is where algebraic properties go to die.
11:01:40 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132042&oldid=132041 * Yayimhere * (+1083)
11:02:57 <wib_jonas> on the esowiki, where do you post reports when an administrator has to deal with something, such as a copyright violation where an admin is needed to hide revisions? I'm looking for something like an administrators' noticeboard page. I understand that in practice I can ask here on IRC, or ping a specific admin on the wiki, but there should be a
11:02:57 <wib_jonas> mechanism that doesn't rely on the IRC channel working nor singles out a specific admin.
11:03:47 <wib_jonas> (nor commits a bigger obvious violation to summon the admins, such as replacing the main page with your request, obviously)
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11:14:34 <wib_jonas> Also I wonder if the esowiki frontpage should have a more prominent thank you notice about the hosting sponsor Bytemark. There's an "About Esolang" link in the bottom and if you follow that you get the info, but something more obvious on just the frontpage might be appropriate.
11:14:43 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132043&oldid=132042 * Yayimhere * (+85) /* idea 2 */
11:14:53 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132044&oldid=132043 * Yayimhere * (-1)
11:16:03 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132045&oldid=132044 * Yayimhere * (-13)
11:16:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132046&oldid=132045 * Yayimhere * (-3)
11:21:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132047&oldid=131669 * B jonas * (+85)
11:22:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132048&oldid=132047 * B jonas * (+16)
11:27:40 <cpressey> Humanity has devised a multitude of ingenious ways of confirming that a computer program meets its specification. None of these ways accounts for the fundamental truth that people don't know what they want.
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11:38:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132049&oldid=132012 * Froginstarch * (+43)
11:44:44 <fizzie> wib_jonas: There's a ":BYTEMARK" logo at the bottom-right of every page, next to the CC0 thing and the "Powered by MediaWiki" one.
11:45:17 <fizzie> Although the URL appears to now go to a 404 page; I guess they've changed their website (maybe as part of the iomart semi-re-branding).
11:45:59 <fizzie> The person who originally negotiated the sponsorship thing is no longer with the company, so I'm a little worried eventually they'll realize they don't want to pay for our nonsense.
11:46:17 <fizzie> (Not that it's a large drain on their resources.)
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12:17:04 <fizzie> On the earlier topic, it's not being used that way, but [[Esolang_talk:Administrators]] could be a plausible place to ask (publicly visible, but that's the general standard on the wiki) questions from "administrators" in general. Whether anyone would notice an edit there is a different question.
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12:29:29 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132050&oldid=132046 * Yayimhere * (+218)
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12:43:40 <wib_jonas> yeah, I mean requests that you can make publicly visible
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13:03:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132051&oldid=132049 * Tommyaweosme * (+307)
13:05:04 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132052&oldid=132050 * Yayimhere * (+14)
13:38:54 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132053&oldid=131989 * Yayimhere * (+150)
13:40:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132054&oldid=132048 * Tommyaweosme * (-10) baleeted
13:40:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132055&oldid=132051 * None1 * (+27) /* Tests */
13:43:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132056&oldid=132055 * None1 * (+85) /* what */
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14:03:39 <esolangs> [[Gate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132057&oldid=132053 * Yayimhere * (+36)
14:14:00 <esolangs> [[CW@ 3 cell brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132058&oldid=131782 * Yayimhere * (-368) /* programs */
14:15:06 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132059&oldid=131440 * Yayimhere * (+13)
14:16:23 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132060&oldid=132059 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
14:16:46 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132061&oldid=132060 * Yayimhere * (+0)
14:17:32 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132062&oldid=132061 * Yayimhere * (-16) /* examples */
14:20:14 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132063&oldid=132062 * Yayimhere * (+16)
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14:30:23 <esolangs> [[GreenBerry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132064&oldid=118712 * 1hals * (+0) fixed external links
15:03:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132065&oldid=132056 * Int-e * (+1) cute but let's not do that to the one part of the page that's actually informative
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15:07:29 <int-e> hmm has the wiki always asked for confirmation when logging out?
15:17:28 <fizzie> I don't know if I've ever managed to log out, it always seems to forget I'm logged in very quickly.
15:18:15 <fizzie> Also it didn't prompt when I logged out as a test just now. :shrug:
15:21:59 <int-e> It's not a preference; it's different with Javascript enabled.
15:49:13 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132066 * Yayimhere * (+1907) Created page with "'''''' pronounced '''up to down'''(can be shortened to UTD as ill be writing it on this page) is a esolang invented by [[User:Yayimhere]](and kinda [[User:gttfr]]) thats a abstract machine where you create states of 3 different simulated computers who can send their states t
15:50:20 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132067&oldid=132066 * Yayimhere * (+130)
15:51:51 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132068&oldid=132067 * Yayimhere * (+50)
15:56:34 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132069&oldid=132068 * Yayimhere * (+171)
16:07:10 <fizzie> Heh. Needed to make some test requests with Unix timestamps, so did date +%s at two separate points, and both times got something made out of just the characters [0127]; 1720022177 and 1720022722. What are the odds? (You don't need to calculate the odds.)
16:09:55 <wib_jonas> fizzie: then you need more testing. datetime libraries can be capricious when used carelessly, there are bugs that you can't reproduce if you only test them in afternoons because they only come up with timestamps in the morning, and lots of such crazy cases.
16:12:39 <int-e> fizzie: well it depends on when you run those tests :P
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16:19:53 <wib_jonas> also dyk that (date -d -d) prints the date for yesterday? The second -d is parsed as an abbreviation for now -1day. I ran into this because I have multiple versions of the aliases called datei and dateu which print the date in a specific format, and they were inconsistent in how they handle an argument: some implicitly interpret an argument as a
16:19:54 <wib_jonas> date so they prepend a -d argument, eg. I was expecting to write (datei 2024-07-10) which calls (date +someformat -d 2024-07-10) so I can tell what the week number and day of week for that date is, or similarly (datei @1720022177) to find what that atomic epoch seconds number means, while other variants just passed any arguments through to date
16:19:54 <wib_jonas> (the program from coreutils) unchanged.
16:20:59 <wib_jonas> HackEso apparently has a variant that does prepend -d implicitly, and worse, ignores a second argument
16:21:17 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 04:00:00.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:21:29 <fizzie> Apparently the https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:DarkVector skin (that I think we added per request for a dark mode) is no longer maintained.
16:21:32 <wib_jonas> it actually means today -1day apparently, not now -1day
16:22:01 <wib_jonas> I should fix that to at least give an error for ``` datei -d @1720022177
16:22:10 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 04:00:00.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:23:07 <wib_jonas> I guess at this point I may have to invent a pair of new names instead of datei and dateu to eliminate the confusion
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16:30:33 <wib_jonas> fizzie: it's a known bug that https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/ doesn't work, isn't it? I mean doesn't work more than usual, it doesn't even load the page just gives a HTTP error.
16:31:09 <wib_jonas> not a big problem, I can edit files through IRC or through fetch, just want to make sure you know about this
16:31:37 -!- shikhin has changed hostmask to ~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian.
16:36:54 <fizzie> It was a known bug, though I thought I "fixed" it (as far as 502 bad gateway is concerned) at the same time as fixing /repo. But I didn't test the fix since it's such a clunky thing anyway.
16:43:30 <fizzie> They've bundled five new extensions as part of MediaWiki 1.40: DiscussionTools ("a forum-like editing experience for wikitext-based discussion pages"), Echo ("a system of user notifications"), Linter ("warns about use of deprecated wikitext"), LoginNotify ("warns users about failed attempted logins") and Thanks ("lets users thank editors for edits").
16:43:35 <fizzie> I usually don't enable bundled extensions by default, but if people feel some of those could be useful, let me know, since it's moderately easier to enable them now that they're bundled with the release.
16:53:16 <wib_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/datei; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\nset -e\nif [[ 1 < $# ]]; then echo "datei error: too many command-line arguments. Usage: datei datetimestring"; exit 2; fi\nexec date ${1:+-d "$1"} "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%3N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod a+x "$f"
16:53:20 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/datei: 3: /hackenv/bin/datei: cannot open 0: No such file \ /hackenv/bin/datei: 3: /hackenv/bin/datei: [[: not found \ 2024-07-03 16:53:20.511 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:53:40 <wib_jonas> oh go to heck sh compatibility mode
16:55:20 <wib_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/datei; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\nset -e\nif let "1<$#"; then echo "datei error: too many command-line arguments. Usage: datei datetimestring"; exit 2; fi\nexec date ${1:+-d "$1"} "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%3N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod a+x "$f"
16:55:30 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/datei: 3: /hackenv/bin/datei: let: not found \ 2024-07-03 16:55:29.997 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:55:34 <int-e> `` ls -la `which sh`
16:55:35 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 4 Jan 17 2019 /bin/sh -> dash
16:55:56 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/datei: 3: /hackenv/bin/datei: let: not found \ 2024-07-03 15:56:17.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:56:10 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/datei: 3: /hackenv/bin/datei: let: not found \ 2024-07-03 14:18:41.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:56:18 <wib_jonas> what the heck do you mean let not found?
16:57:18 <int-e> why don't you change the shebang line
16:57:20 <esolangs> [[The chan-esoteric stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132070&oldid=108764 * Gggfr * (+48)
16:57:34 <HackEso> GNU bash, version 5.0.3(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) \ Copyright (C) 2019 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> \ \ This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
16:58:05 <esolangs> [[The chan-esoteric stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132071&oldid=132070 * Gggfr * (+32)
16:58:18 <wib_jonas> ` hg revert -r 11945 /hackenv/bin/datei
16:58:24 <wib_jonas> ``` hg revert -r 11945 /hackenv/bin/datei
16:58:26 <HackEso> abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system
16:58:33 <HackEso> Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff repository (or selected files) \ export dump the header and diffs for one or more changesets \ forget forget the specifi
16:58:53 <int-e> (it has to be a bot command; it won't work from within the VM)
16:59:03 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; f=/hackenv/bin/datei; hg cat -r 11945 >"$f"; chmod a+x "$f"
16:59:12 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; f=/hackenv/bin/datei; hg cat -r 11945 "$f" >"$f"; chmod a+x "$f"
16:59:18 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 16:59:18.253 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:59:38 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 14:18:41.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
16:59:51 <int-e> I guess that works if you have read-only access
17:00:08 <wib_jonas> but revert should change only the working copy, not the repo
17:00:43 <wib_jonas> though maybe we don't have write access to the working copy metadata either?
17:00:50 <HackEso> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime) \ tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,relatime) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib64/) \ none on
17:01:10 <HackEso> none on /hackenv type hostfs (rw,nosuid,relatime,/srv/hackeso-data/env/) \ none on /hackenv/.hg type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/srv/hackeso-data/env/.hg/) \ none on /etc/alternatives type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/etc/alternatives/)
17:01:27 <wib_jonas> yeah, that says /hackenv/.hg is read-only
17:02:33 <wib_jonas> well, I'll have to think about which behavior I want, the one that prepends -d or the one that doesn't, and whether I need a new name to solve this and deprecate the name -d
17:02:46 <int-e> "could not lock" - ah that's the issue, the lock file goes inside the repo dir
17:07:14 <wib_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/datei; >$f echo $'#!/bin/bash\nset -e\nif (( 1 < $# )); then echo "datei error: too many command-line arguments. Usage: datei datetimestring"; exit 2; fi\nexec date ${1:+-d "$1"} "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%3N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod a+x "$f"
17:07:27 <wib_jonas> keeping it compatible for now by keeping the implicit -d
17:07:34 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 17:07:33.563 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
17:07:55 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 14:18:41.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
17:08:17 <wib_jonas> `datei 2024-07-03T19:07:35+0200 CEDT
17:08:19 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘2024-07-03T19:07:35+0200 CEDT’
17:08:25 <wib_jonas> `datei 2024-07-03 19:07:35+0200 CEDT
17:08:27 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘2024-07-03 19:07:35+0200 CEDT’
17:08:33 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 17:07:35.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
17:08:46 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 19:07:35.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
17:09:01 <HackEso> datei error: too many command-line arguments. Usage: datei datetimestring
17:09:07 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 04:00:00.000 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
17:09:19 <HackEso> datei error: too many command-line arguments. Usage: datei datetimestring
17:09:30 <HackEso> 2024-07-05 17:09:29.440 +0000 UTC July 5 Friday 2024-W27-5
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17:15:17 <wib_jonas> ``` f=/hackenv/bin/dateu; >$f echo $'#!/bin/bash\nset -e\nif (( 1 < $# )); then echo "dateu error: too many command-line arguments. Usage: dateu datetimestring"; exit 2; fi\nexec date -u ${1:+-d "$1"} "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%3N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod a+x "$f"
17:15:30 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 17:15:29.536 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
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17:18:28 <wib_jonas> ``` export TZ=Pacific/Auckland; datei # the traditional location for HackEso is New Zealand
17:18:31 <HackEso> 2024-07-04 05:18:30.517 +1200 NZST July 4 Thursday 2024-W27-4
17:18:33 <wib_jonas> ``` export TZ=Pacific/Auckland; dateu
17:18:36 <HackEso> 2024-07-03 17:18:35.270 +0000 UTC July 3 Wednesday 2024-W27-3
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17:25:48 <fizzie> Uh-oh, the MediaWiki database update script crashed ("Wikimedia\Rdbms\InsertQueryBuilder::execute can't have empty $rows value").
17:25:52 <fizzie> Probably not a good sign.
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17:30:37 <fizzie> I think I got it patched, looks like that used to be a warning and now is an error, and it gets called from updateRestrictions.php with an empty list if there's no protected pages in a 1000-page batch. Or something. At any rate, it's going forward now.
17:30:47 <fizzie> This is why I should have that staging environment.
17:31:03 <fizzie> Maybe I can set one up locally or something.
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17:50:40 <esolangs> [[User:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132072&oldid=104486 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.42.1. Sorry for the longer downtime this time.
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17:56:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132073&oldid=132065 * PaxtonPenguin * (+32)
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18:08:22 <fizzie> Hmm. Styling of the "View history" pages appears kinda borked when logged out.
18:11:38 <fizzie> Main page looks about the same -- https://zem.fi/tmp/page1.png -- for both, but revision history -- https://zem.fi/tmp/page2.png -- doesn't. Logged out, title is missing and some margins look off; logged-in, the "Filter revisions" box is missing the UI affordances to open it.
18:11:58 <fizzie> I guess it could be some kind of a stylesheet caching issue though.
18:17:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:17:54 <fizzie> And tabs don't work under "Preferences". :/
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18:20:51 <fizzie> Looks like it's trying to load https://esolangs.org/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&raw=1&safemode=1&skin=vector but that returns a 500 with the text `Fatal exception of type "Error"`.
18:21:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
18:23:21 <fizzie> "Class ResourceLoaderSkinModule" not found". Hmm.
18:27:29 <int-e> (at least the page history looks fine now for me while not logged in)
18:28:03 <ais523> fizzie: I think some piece of JavaScript is not loading
18:28:36 <ais523> e.g. on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges the options at the top of the page don't load
18:28:46 <ais523> it may be that JavaScript files generally aren't loading, with only inline JavaScript working
18:28:47 <int-e> I tested without JS.
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18:29:09 <int-e> And I saw a CSS issue which seems to be fixed now.
18:29:18 <ais523> ah yes, "https://esolangs.org/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&raw=1&skin=vector"
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18:29:35 <int-e> Whether through fizzie's efforts or because a cache expired, I don't know.
18:29:36 <fizzie> Yeah. But it's odd. That "ResourceLoaderSkinModule" class was a backwards compatibility alias that was dropped in 1.42, but it's only referred to from the DarkVector skin. Maybe just having the skin available causes that to throw an exception.
18:29:47 <ais523> not quite the same URL as yours but close enough
18:29:53 <fizzie> I'll just try dropping it for now. Sorry for any dark mode users.
18:30:28 <fizzie> That seems to have fixed at least my JS URL.
18:31:30 <fizzie> And reloading made the `v` appear in revision history, and the Recent changes filters seem working again.
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18:41:57 <b_jonas> "the MediaWiki database update script crashed" => oh no
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18:42:56 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132074&oldid=131312 * Ais523 * (-141) the Sandbox probably shouldn't be linked on the Main Page it's a place for test edits, which isn't something that most editors will care about, and the link may have been contributing to the Sandbox getting out of hand
18:43:27 <b_jonas> ok, so what I should do is to keep datei and dateu accept a freeform date (as if passed to the -d option of coreutils date) as a plain argument, but only if it doesn't start with a hyphen, and make datei and dateu do proper getopt-style argument parsing, so anything that starts with a hyphen is a switch (most of them just reserved for the future)
18:44:50 <b_jonas> the full product would of course be if I also wrote a new free-form date parsing library whose set of accepted date formats is incompatible with every existing library, because you just can't have enough of these, and make datei and dateu parse dates with those, but for now I should just concentrate on the short-term solution where they're still based on gnu's date parsing
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18:46:28 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132075&oldid=132074 * Ais523 * (-84) get rid of the other link to the Sandbox, too it is not intended for having fun, but for test edits
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19:17:51 <esolangs> [[None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132076&oldid=131983 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Commands */
19:19:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132077&oldid=132073 * Tommyaweosme * (+24)
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19:37:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132078&oldid=132077 * Ais523 * (-707) clean sandbox / remove personal attacks this isn't a good place for arguments to happen
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19:48:14 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132079&oldid=131180 * EvyLah * (+131) theme update?
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19:55:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Geometry Dash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132080&oldid=130220 * EvyLah * (+147) .gmd2 files
19:59:20 <esolangs> [[Geometry Dash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132081&oldid=127073 * EvyLah * (+76) /* Example programs */ added my own program
20:02:40 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132082&oldid=132075 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-23) Padding
20:02:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132083&oldid=132078 * Tommyaweosme * (+61)
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20:14:55 <esolangs> [[Geometry Dash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132084&oldid=132081 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Category
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20:18:36 <esolangs> [[Agony]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132085&oldid=66823 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) Categories
20:22:47 <esolangs> [[Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132086&oldid=125861 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) Categories
20:38:15 <Sgeo> Speculative execution for smoother audio in BytePusher VMs?
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20:49:27 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132087&oldid=129720 * Quito0567 * (+64)
20:50:00 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132088&oldid=132087 * Quito0567 * (-2)
20:51:23 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132089&oldid=132088 * Quito0567 * (+8)
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21:03:36 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132090&oldid=119860 * Quito0567 * (+1295)
21:06:30 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132091&oldid=127890 * Brain Boy 53 * (-7)
21:06:41 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132092&oldid=132079 * Fizzie * (+690) /* Stuff noticed */ Stuff.
21:09:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132093&oldid=132083 * Ais523 * (-61) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/132083|132083]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) the instructions aren't very useful if nobody can read them
21:17:04 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132094&oldid=132091 * Brain Boy 53 * (+245)
21:23:44 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132095&oldid=132094 * Brain Boy 53 * (+254)
21:27:13 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132096&oldid=132095 * Brain Boy 53 * (+29)
21:30:18 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132097&oldid=131986 * Ractangle * (+80)
21:31:37 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132098&oldid=132096 * Brain Boy 53 * (+78)
21:34:49 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132099&oldid=132098 * Brain Boy 53 * (+74)
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21:58:57 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132100&oldid=132099 * Brain Boy 53 * (+246)
22:03:35 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132101&oldid=132100 * Brain Boy 53 * (+17)
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22:12:03 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132102&oldid=132101 * Brain Boy 53 * (+338)
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22:28:01 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132103&oldid=132102 * Brain Boy 53 * (+587)
22:31:26 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132104&oldid=132103 * Brain Boy 53 * (+29)
22:34:50 <fizzie> On the rationale that whoever asked me to install the 'DarkVector' to get a dark mode must've appreciated its author's opinions, and said author having switched to the 'Citizen' skin, added that to the wiki, since it seemed like a decently popular and well-supported way to get a skin that can follow the system light/dark settings.
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22:42:20 <esolangs> [[Template:Layout box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132105&oldid=32061 * Fizzie * (+30) Since the box hardcodes the title cell background, also do so for the foreground, to avoid breaking entirely in a dark theme.
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22:49:47 <salpynx> fizzie: re. MediaWiki extensions, I have on a handful of occasions in the past wanted to thank ppl for wiki edits, but never enough to actively ask for the feature. I'd weakly vote for Thanks, but am ambivalent about the others. They could add more noise, I don't know.
22:51:49 <salpynx> The Math notation extension is super-useful, and I'm glad that one is present.
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22:56:53 <ais523> AbuseFilter seems slightly broken at the moment (you can't add new filters), but it was also broken before the upgrade
23:10:02 <fizzie> It took us ages to get the Math extension in, because it always seemed like a huge hassle to get installed locally, and it was very badly documented whether you could "legally" just point it at Wikipedia's API (which is what we ended up doing).
23:10:19 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132106&oldid=132104 * Brain Boy 53 * (+44)
23:11:10 <fizzie> How does AbuseFilter currently break if you try to add new filters?
23:11:37 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132107&oldid=132106 * Brain Boy 53 * (+158)
23:13:02 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132108&oldid=132107 * Brain Boy 53 * (+34)
23:13:18 <esolangs> [[NoError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132109&oldid=132108 * Brain Boy 53 * (+0)
23:14:26 <fizzie> It's one of those bundled extensions, so at least there should be no version incompatibility issues.
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23:43:05 <ais523> fizzie: there's a database error
23:45:07 <ais523> maybe the fix for the JS error fixed this too
23:47:15 <ais523> it didn't work when I tested it immediately post-upgrade, but I just added a new rule and it worked
23:47:38 <Sgeo> Except for keyboard input, I could pretend a BytePusher program is basically a video and render ahead of time
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00:22:28 <esolangs> [[Poololoop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132110&oldid=126017 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Category
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01:05:26 <Sgeo> Is ~1ms per BytePusher frame a lot or a little?
01:33:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Exotic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132111 * Joe * (+26) Created page with "Discussion page for Exotic"
01:34:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Exotic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132112&oldid=132111 * Joe * (+240) /* Proof of the turing completeness for Exotic? */ new section
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02:20:13 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132113 * Aadenboy * (+14482) woohoo! new esolang!
02:22:53 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132114&oldid=129171 * Aadenboy * (+3) update esolangs list
02:23:14 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132115&oldid=132114 * Aadenboy * (-18) /* my esolangs */ why am I using an em space
03:12:03 <Sgeo> Does anyone with a Chrome browser and non-QWERTY keyboard layout want to test https://sgeo.github.io/BytePusherWASM/ to see if my keyboard map illustration works?
03:20:53 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132116&oldid=132054 * Aadenboy * (+17) added language
03:21:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132117&oldid=132116 * Aadenboy * (+0) /* M */ TWO E'S
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03:52:01 <esolangs> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132118&oldid=132015 * Sgeo * (-38) Keyboard support implemented
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03:59:10 <ais523> Sgeo_: normal aim with sound/graphics code is 60 frames per second, = approx 16 ms per frame
03:59:24 <ais523> if you are faster than that you are doing well
04:00:12 <Sgeo_> Hmm, except I'm starting each frame in a requestAnimationFrame. Maybe I need to... not do that
04:01:23 <ais523> bear in mind that most programs will need to be slowed down to 60fps, or animation will run too fast
04:02:07 <Sgeo_> Wait for repaint + 2ms to calculate may be too slow on a 60Hz monitor, right?
04:04:06 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132119&oldid=131491 * None1 * (+519) Add Computational class section
04:04:13 <ais523> no, what you do is you do the calculation before waiting for the repaint
04:04:26 <ais523> so as long as the calculation is done before the next repaint it doesn't slow you down
04:06:08 <ais523> I think requestAnimationFrame does that already
04:06:27 <ais523> i.e. the wait time is shortened to account for time spent calculating
04:15:44 <Sgeo_> ...how does that work? The browser can't know how much time before the repaint I'll need?
04:21:22 <esolangs> [[MiniChicken]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132120 * None1 * (+33) Redirected page to [[Chicken#MiniChicken]]
04:29:13 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132121&oldid=132119 * None1 * (+519) Infobox
04:30:39 <zzo38> I had idea of binary format of ICFP 2014. Each instruction needs four bytes. The opcode is four bits, so there can be up to sixteen opcodes, although two of them are unused. However, since the addressing modes are not used for HLT and INT, those could also be made into the same opcode, and using the addressing mode bits to distinguish them. (Also, "MOV PC" is its own opcode.)
04:32:10 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132122&oldid=132121 * None1 * (+3)
04:32:36 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132123&oldid=132122 * None1 * (+0)
04:33:33 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132124&oldid=132123 * None1 * (-30)
04:37:28 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132125&oldid=132124 * None1 * (+27)
04:38:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132126&oldid=132117 * None1 * (+18) /* M */
04:39:11 <Sgeo_> Maybe nested setTimeouts. One setTimeout for 10ms, then one for 6.6666...
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04:40:06 <Sgeo_> I should really schedule the audio in advance
04:42:34 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132127&oldid=132125 * None1 * (+22) /* Instructions */
04:43:23 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132128&oldid=132113 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Category
04:44:09 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132129&oldid=132127 * None1 * (+45) /* External resources */
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04:46:52 <esolangs> [[BFasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132130&oldid=127083 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) Categories
04:48:07 <esolangs> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132131&oldid=112426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Distinguish confusion
04:49:43 <esolangs> [[Category:Compilers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132132&oldid=112435 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) Link, .
04:50:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132133&oldid=131342 * None1 * (+216) /* Categories for type systems */ new section
04:52:58 <esolangs> [[AEAV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132134&oldid=120908 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Categories
04:57:37 <esolangs> [[Parity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132135&oldid=103911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+113) Categories
05:36:48 <ais523> <Sgeo_> ...how does that work? The browser can't know how much time before the repaint I'll need? ← it can just run your code immediately after rendering the previous frame, so the new frame will be ready by the time the next frame needs to be rendered
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06:01:00 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132136&oldid=132128 * Aadenboy * (-36) /* Brainfuck Interpreter */
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06:46:44 <esolangs> [[User:Gggfr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132137 * Gggfr * (+40) Created page with "This is a alt acc for [[User:yayimhere]]"
06:52:47 <esolangs> [[Stack of hash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132138 * Gggfr * (+521) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=Stack of #@*&*364*/&;@;%cnbbjsjwyrb;ht&@*^(#6&/&)]6;#8&)&KYt*5[$]_>~<\|]$]_}} title=Stack of #@*&*364*/&;@;%cnbbjsjwyrb;ht&@*^(#6&/&)]6;#8&)&KYt*5[$]_>~<\|]$]_ Is a stack where anybody can add any program, set, string, or number they want onto it!
06:53:27 <esolangs> [[Stack of hash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132139&oldid=132138 * Gggfr * (+76)
06:54:37 <esolangs> [[Stack of hash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132140&oldid=132139 * Gggfr * (-6)
06:59:22 <esolangs> [[Stack of hash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132141&oldid=132140 * Gggfr * (+51)
07:25:12 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132142&oldid=132052 * Gggfr * (+15) /* idea 2 */
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08:16:03 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132143&oldid=132142 * Gggfr * (+1003) /* idea 3 */
08:23:02 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132144&oldid=132143 * Gggfr * (+36)
08:23:20 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132145&oldid=132144 * Gggfr * (-4)
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08:26:19 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132146&oldid=132069 * Gggfr * (+0)
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08:27:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132147&oldid=132146 * Gggfr * (-55)
08:28:13 <fizzie> Search Console now has one day of data. The `http://esolangs.org/` property was getting a median of 0 clicks/day, maybe once a week there was a day with 1 click, and in the last 3 months there was one day with 2 clicks. The `esolangs.org` domain property had 378 clicks on Saturday, 29 Jun.
08:28:27 <fizzie> I mean, it's still not a lot in absolute terms, but it's more.
08:29:41 <fizzie> Also the top queries are kind of... more predictable. For example "esolang" is the one that most commonly leads to the wiki.
08:31:39 <fizzie> Before (with full 3 months of data): https://zem.fi/tmp/wikiq.png / After (with just one day): https://zem.fi/tmp/wikiq2.png
08:46:44 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132148&oldid=132147 * Gggfr * (+13)
08:47:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:ABPLWNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132149&oldid=103324 * Ractangle * (+179)
08:47:51 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132150&oldid=131987 * Gggfr * (+104) /* Implementations */
08:53:59 <esolangs> [[ABPLWNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132151&oldid=107929 * Ractangle * (+19)
08:55:24 <esolangs> [[ABPLWNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132152&oldid=132151 * Ractangle * (-28) /* Commands */
08:57:36 <esolangs> [[ABPLWNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132153&oldid=132152 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Hello World program */
09:06:08 <esolangs> [[ABPLWNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132154&oldid=132153 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello World program */
09:09:32 <esolangs> [[ABPLWNL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132155&oldid=132154 * None1 * (+8)
09:16:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132156 * None1 * (+161) Created page with "Nothing in Wikipedia is public domain, so you can't copy the color table to this wiki. --~~~~"
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09:27:58 <esolangs> [[Brainf ck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132157&oldid=122383 * None1 * (+16)
09:28:25 <esolangs> [[Brainf ck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132158&oldid=132157 * None1 * (+0)
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09:49:41 <wib_jonas> fizzie: the odd part then is why some search queries led to plain http instead of https.
09:51:29 <wib_jonas> oh well, we'll have to return and look at these results like two months from now
09:53:23 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132159&oldid=132063 * Yayimhere * (+12)
09:53:35 <esolangs> [[Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132160&oldid=131966 * None1 * (-19) /* Quine */ That's not a quine
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09:54:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132161&oldid=132159 * Yayimhere * (-53)
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10:16:37 <fizzie> Yeah, not sure what's up with that. If I search for "uniquode" myself, the wiki result (at #7) is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Uniquode
10:17:43 <fizzie> And if I use Search Console to inspect http://esolangs.org/wiki/Uniquode it says "Page is not indexed: Alternative page with proper canonical tag", with a "User-declared canonical" of the https:// equivalent, and a "Google-selected canonical" of "Same as user-declared canonical", which is what I'd expect.
10:18:15 <fizzie> Maybe it just shows up on the http:// "property" if it exists, even as a duplicate.
10:19:46 <fizzie> It also says the pages that referred to it were http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-10-16.txt and http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.10.16 -- both of which no longer work. But there's indeed a http:// link at https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2011-10-16.html#lYu so fair enough.
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11:18:15 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132162 * None1 * (+1874) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{Distinguish/Confusion|B}} {{lang|n=b|a=User:None1}} It is a [[bf]] derivative. bf has 8 commands, but b has only 4. ==Commands== b has these 4 commands {{cd|+}} {{cd|.}} {{cd|>}} and {{cd|[}} they work like in brainfuck. ==Examples== ===[[Hello, World
11:18:40 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132163&oldid=132162 * None1 * (+2) /* Hello, World */
11:18:50 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132164&oldid=132163 * None1 * (-1)
11:19:09 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132165&oldid=132164 * None1 * (+1)
11:19:34 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132166&oldid=132165 * None1 * (+17) /* Python */
11:21:45 <esolangs> [[F (None1)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132167 * None1 * (+648) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{Distinguish/Confusion|F}} {{lang|n=f|a=User:None1}} It is a [[bf]] derivative. bf has 8 commands, but f has only 4. ==Commands== b has these 4 commands {{cd|-}} {{cd|,}} {{cd|<}} and {{cd|]}}. They work like in brainfuck. ==Examples== ===Input a byte===
11:22:32 <esolangs> [[F (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132168&oldid=132167 * None1 * (+69)
11:23:14 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132169&oldid=132166 * None1 * (+69) /* Interpreters */
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11:25:31 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132170&oldid=131392 * None1 * (+74) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
11:25:56 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132171&oldid=132169 * None1 * (+35) /* See also */
11:26:35 <esolangs> [[F (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132172&oldid=132168 * None1 * (+35) /* See also */
11:27:24 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132173&oldid=131396 * None1 * (+59) /* My Esolangs */
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11:39:49 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132174&oldid=132145 * Yayimhere * (+198)
11:45:13 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132175&oldid=132174 * Gggfr * (+3)
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12:18:12 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132176&oldid=132161 * Yayimhere * (+81)
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13:05:46 <esolangs> [[Rainbow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132177 * None1 * (+2914) Created page with "{{DISPLAYTITLE:<font color="red">r</font><font color="orange">a</font><font color="yellow">i</font><font color="green">n</font><font color="cyan">b</font><font color="blue">o</font><font color="purple">w</font>}} '''<font color="red">r</font><font color="orange">a</font>
13:06:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132178&oldid=132126 * None1 * (+210) /* R */
13:06:57 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132179&oldid=132173 * None1 * (+259) /* My Esolangs */
13:08:33 <esolangs> [[Rainbow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132180&oldid=132177 * None1 * (+27)
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13:55:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * None1 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:2repeat nice.jpg]]": Blue not purple
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14:06:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Nice cat program.png]]": Cat program (not sure if this is correct)
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15:29:35 <esolangs> [[-1 bytes :/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132183&oldid=127079 * Ractangle * (-355) /* Interpreter */
15:40:05 <esolangs> [[CGOLOE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132184 * Yayimhere * (+3218) Created page with "'''CGOLOE''' is a esolang made by [[User:yayimhere]]. its name os short for Conways Game Of Life Oriented Esolang. its a esolang made to compute conways game of life and is therefore also turing complete(since it can compute conways game of life and conways game of lif
15:54:43 <esolangs> [[(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132185&oldid=96926 * Yayimhere * (+2)
15:59:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132186&oldid=100962 * Yayimhere * (+137)
15:59:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132187&oldid=132186 * Yayimhere * (+6)
16:06:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132188&oldid=132187 * Yayimhere * (+9)
16:10:02 <esolangs> [[Chafa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132189&oldid=94815 * Yayimhere * (+5)
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16:32:45 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132190&oldid=131995 * Yayimhere * (+48) /* Looks Like */
16:37:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132191&oldid=132178 * Yayimhere * (+16) /* Non-alphabetic */
16:38:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132192&oldid=132191 * Yayimhere * (+11) /* G */
16:38:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132193&oldid=132192 * Yayimhere * (+18) /* C */
16:40:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132194&oldid=132193 * Yayimhere * (+26) /* R */
16:40:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Exotic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132195&oldid=132112 * Hakerh400 * (+529)
16:41:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132196&oldid=132194 * Yayimhere * (+18) /* S */
16:42:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132197&oldid=132196 * Yayimhere * (+20) /* Non-alphabetic */
16:43:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132198&oldid=132197 * Yayimhere * (+15) /* O */
16:46:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132199&oldid=132198 * Yayimhere * (+11) /* N */
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17:36:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pug * New user account
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17:42:51 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132200&oldid=132097 * Ractangle * (-1)
17:42:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132201&oldid=131513 * Pug * (+89)
17:43:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[GPLANGUAGE]] to [[4ME]]
17:48:33 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132204&oldid=132202 * Ractangle * (+69)
17:49:16 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132205&oldid=132200 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Esolangs */
17:50:13 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132206&oldid=132205 * Ractangle * (+97) /* Other things */
17:50:29 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132207&oldid=132206 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Other things */
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18:01:31 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132208&oldid=132207 * Ractangle * (+63) /* Other things */
18:02:58 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132209&oldid=132204 * Ractangle * (+53)
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18:31:41 <esolangs> [[CGOLOE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132210&oldid=132184 * Yayimhere * (+62) /* programs */
18:42:01 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132211 * Joe * (+363) beginning
18:45:59 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132212&oldid=132209 * Ractangle * (+96) /* Commands */
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18:50:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Squareroot12621 * New user account
18:50:12 <esolangs> [[Comun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132213&oldid=121566 * Tastyfish * (+45) Mention date of self-hosting
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18:54:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132214&oldid=132201 * Squareroot12621 * (+241)
18:57:49 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132215&oldid=132212 * Ractangle * (+214)
18:58:26 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132216&oldid=132215 * Ractangle * (-75) yeah nvm
18:59:40 <esolangs> [[User:Squareroot12621]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132217 * Squareroot12621 * (+144) Created user page.
19:08:04 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132218 * Squareroot12621 * (+840) Created page.
19:08:36 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132219&oldid=132216 * Ractangle * (+47) /* Errors */
19:10:17 <esolangs> [[Messenger/Python interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132220 * Squareroot12621 * (+23033) Created interpreter.
19:10:33 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132221&oldid=132219 * Ractangle * (-37) /* Commands */
19:11:13 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132222&oldid=132211 * Joe * (+962)
19:20:36 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132223&oldid=132222 * Joe * (+660)
19:24:36 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132224&oldid=132218 * Squareroot12621 * (+1149) Finished functions.
19:33:14 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132225&oldid=132221 * Ractangle * (+105) /* Examples */
19:37:58 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132226&oldid=132225 * Ractangle * (+162) /* Commands */
19:45:14 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132227&oldid=132226 * Ractangle * (+40)
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19:47:23 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132228&oldid=132227 * Ractangle * (+67) /* Examples */
19:49:11 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132229&oldid=132228 * Ractangle * (+33) /* See Also */
19:49:23 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132230&oldid=132229 * Ractangle * (-9) /* See Also */
19:54:17 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132231&oldid=132230 * Ractangle * (+24) /* See Also */
19:58:30 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132232&oldid=132208 * Ractangle * (-24) /* Other things */
20:02:53 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132233&oldid=132224 * Squareroot12621 * (+370) Added some stuff.
20:07:04 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132234&oldid=132231 * Ractangle * (+158) /* Examples */
20:07:51 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132235&oldid=131719 * Ractangle * (+149) /* Adj */
20:09:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132236&oldid=132199 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-26) Sort, remove duplicates
20:11:41 <esolangs> [[(())]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132237&oldid=132185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Binary Increment */ Scroll overflow
20:14:34 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132238&oldid=132233 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Categories
20:14:48 <esolangs> [[Messenger/Python interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132239&oldid=132220 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) Category
20:14:52 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132240&oldid=132234 * Ractangle * (+76) /* Commands */
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20:23:04 <esolangs> [[Rotary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132241&oldid=117534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-88) /* Example programs */ Remove outdated notice
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22:16:15 <fizzie> Migrated a thing (AoC solutions, as it happens) from using an incredibly ugly iterator API to Go 1.23's shiny new iterators that it has a special loop syntax for, and it got 50-60% slower. :/
22:21:36 <fizzie> For a specific benchmark of the generic graph utility, that is. For the actual solutions, only 6 used the iterators in the first place, and the speed impacts for those were 0%, +10%, 0%, +3%, +6% and 0%, respectively. So maybe I'll just let it go, it looks a lot nicer.
22:24:00 <fizzie> Entirely unintentional there.
22:24:27 <int-e> I blame Google for picking such a common word as the name of their language.
22:24:44 <int-e> It's worse than Swift.
22:25:28 <fizzie> "Golang" has sort of settled in as a de-facto name when referring to the programming language, which annoys some of the people on the Go channel very much.
22:27:00 <int-e> Hmm I should check how good Rust is at turning its functional style loops into imperative loops. I seem to recall making code faster by using for loops instead.
22:34:36 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, what was the old and new API? Seems surprising that it's that different!
22:39:33 <fizzie> The old API was just what I had come up with, which used custom iterator types, and you wrote a `for it := g.Succ(u); it.Valid(); it = g.Next(it) { v := it.Head(); ... }` style loops. The new one uses https://tip.golang.org/wiki/RangefuncExperiment which allows it to be `for v := range g.Succ(u) { ... }`.
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22:40:03 <fizzie> Okay, it's not _that_ bad to begin with.
22:41:34 <shachaf> Oh, right, the syntax takes a function that it calls on every element.
22:44:12 <fizzie> Oh, the old API for my graph thing also had `g.ForSucc(u, func (v int) bool { ...; return true })` which is even closer to the new range-over-func thing, except without the special syntax it made it quite awkward if you wanted to return early from the containing function.
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00:25:32 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132242&oldid=132223 * Joe * (+38)
00:44:37 <esolangs> [[User:Null byte/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132243 * Null byte * (+6) Created page with ""
00:55:36 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132244&oldid=132017 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+24) /* program */
00:59:14 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132245&oldid=132244 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+42) /* commands */
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01:00:09 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132246&oldid=132245 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+9) /* commands */
01:03:34 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132247&oldid=132246 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) /* narcissist */
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01:04:29 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132248&oldid=132247 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3) /* narcissist */
01:04:43 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132249&oldid=132248 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* narcissist */
01:06:17 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132250&oldid=132249 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+22) /* program */
01:09:02 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132251&oldid=132250 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+35) /* palindrome */
01:15:10 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132252&oldid=132251 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* palindromes */
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01:17:22 <esolangs> [[DO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132253 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+332) Created page with "'''DO''' is a programming language that is based off of recursion made by ~~~~"
01:17:36 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132254&oldid=132253 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-157)
01:36:07 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132255&oldid=132254 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1209)
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01:55:35 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132256&oldid=132255 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+641)
01:57:53 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132257&oldid=132256 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+56) /* programs */
02:01:48 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132258&oldid=132257 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-30)
02:02:05 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132259&oldid=131949 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8)
02:54:11 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck extended]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132260&oldid=125954 * BestCoder * (+88)
02:54:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck extended]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132261&oldid=132260 * BestCoder * (-88)
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03:43:41 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132262&oldid=132136 * Aadenboy * (+71)
03:48:50 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132263&oldid=132252 * MihaiEso * (+26) /* hello world */ Added a example!
04:31:40 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132264&oldid=130111 * None1 * (-107) /* Commands */ No, it won't, it requires infinite time to output all the digits of pi
04:42:18 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132265&oldid=132264 * None1 * (+105)
04:50:16 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132266&oldid=132265 * None1 * (+4) Deal with duplicate characters and the use of letters (in latin alphabet?)
04:54:20 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132267&oldid=132266 * None1 * (+106) /* Commands */ New command
04:54:44 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132268&oldid=132267 * None1 * (+12) /* Commands */
04:54:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132269&oldid=132175 * Yayimhere * (-2349)
04:55:55 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132270&oldid=132268 * None1 * (+16) /* Examples */
05:02:32 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132271&oldid=132270 * None1 * (+173) /* Commands */
05:16:27 <zzo38> With the binary ICFP 2014 GHC forat, I suppose also a separate opcode is not needed for JLT either. Therefore, four opcodes are unused (so may be assigned for a nonstandard extension such as bit shifting and bit rotation, I suppose)
05:20:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132272&oldid=131500 * None1 * (+98) /* Commands */
05:23:43 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132273&oldid=132240 * Ractangle * (-18) /* Commands */
05:24:18 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132274&oldid=132273 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Commands */
05:24:42 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132275&oldid=132274 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Commands */
05:25:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132276&oldid=132156 * Gggfr * (+62)
05:26:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132277&oldid=132276 * Gggfr * (+1)
05:27:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132278&oldid=132277 * Gggfr * (+17)
05:29:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132279&oldid=132278 * Gggfr * (-19)
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05:43:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Ibar2.png]]": Remake if command
05:44:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Inicememe.jpg]]": Oops!
05:47:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132282&oldid=131850 * PrySigneToFry * (+492) /* */ new section
05:47:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * None1 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Ibar2.png]]": fix
05:52:05 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132284&oldid=132242 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Example Programs */
05:52:14 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132285&oldid=132284 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
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05:52:39 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132286&oldid=132285 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello, world! */
06:00:25 <esolangs> [[Rainbow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132287&oldid=132180 * None1 * (+192)
06:02:51 <esolangs> [[Rainbow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132288&oldid=132287 * None1 * (+164)
06:11:43 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132289&oldid=132129 * None1 * (+72) /* External resources */ chickenpy doesn't work for some examples, so add another interpreter (not by me)
06:16:09 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132290&oldid=132271 * Gggfr * (+211) /* Commands */
06:50:23 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132291&oldid=132235 * Ractangle * (-15) /* 4ME */
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07:02:03 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132292&oldid=132275 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Cat program */
07:02:18 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132293&oldid=132292 * Ractangle * (-6) /* A+B Problem */
07:02:38 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132294&oldid=132291 * Ractangle * (-6) /* 4ME */
07:02:53 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132295&oldid=132293 * Ractangle * (-16) /* A+B Problem */
07:30:45 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132296&oldid=131855 * Yayimhere * (+6)
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07:41:36 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132297&oldid=132295 * Ractangle * (+58) /* Commands */
07:59:39 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132298&oldid=129483 * Yayimhere * (+218) /* Examples */
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08:07:33 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132299&oldid=132286 * Pro465 * (+0) /* Commands */ typo fiix
08:53:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: if they don't like golang we could call it Baduk instead
08:54:45 <b_jonas> bad names for programming languages is kind of a long tradition since the dawn of computers
08:58:32 <int-e> Naming programming languages is as simple as A, B, C.
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09:26:53 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132300&oldid=132290 * None1 * (+1) /* Commands */ fix
09:43:00 <b_jonas> and of course here on the esolang wiki, esolang makers continue that tradition by giving stupid names to languages, like (0) or 1.1
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09:50:40 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132301&oldid=132269 * Yayimhere * (+481)
09:50:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132302&oldid=132279 * Yayimhere * (+5)
09:52:45 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132303&oldid=132301 * Yayimhere * (+17) /* idea 3 */
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10:02:46 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132304&oldid=132303 * Yayimhere * (+560) /* idea 3 */
10:06:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132305&oldid=132304 * Yayimhere * (+56)
10:07:23 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132306&oldid=132305 * Yayimhere * (+51)
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10:12:37 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132307&oldid=132306 * Yayimhere * (+239)
10:13:56 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132308&oldid=132307 * Yayimhere * (+153)
10:19:24 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132309&oldid=132297 * Ractangle * (+195) /* Commands */
10:35:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132310&oldid=132272 * None1 * (+283) /* Commands */
10:36:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132311&oldid=132310 * None1 * (+1)
10:43:19 <esolangs> [[Blablafuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132312&oldid=74206 * None1 * (+0)
11:21:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfudge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132313&oldid=104815 * None1 * (+100)
11:22:04 <esolangs> [[ELang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132314 * PrySigneToFry * (+824) Created page with "{{Stub}} Elang is an Esolang developed by Wu Tao. == Intro == Elang is a programming language that supports programming based on Chinese, fully visualized, and cross-mainstream operating system platforms, and supports programming tools that support full use of API,
11:23:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132315&oldid=132236 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
11:23:32 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132316&oldid=132308 * Yayimhere * (+164) /* idea 3 */
11:24:12 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132317&oldid=132316 * Yayimhere * (-387)
11:25:45 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132318&oldid=127327 * None1 * (+13) /* Competitive hills */
11:33:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132319&oldid=132311 * PrySigneToFry * (+379)
11:38:42 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132320&oldid=132318 * None1 * (+39) /* External resources */
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11:47:13 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132321&oldid=132317 * Yayimhere * (+48)
11:49:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132322&oldid=132321 * Yayimhere * (+139)
11:50:24 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132323 * PrySigneToFry * (+392) Created page with "== fi6r 7iYz! == fi6r 7iYz lY FLH wo de iv8 te7 fLH mi2H! Fnu8 kie NiT zY HV sVz 5L hua iv8! == hua iv8 kVH De == wE liL Fnu8 de xzT rL bA piLu f3H ju3, iq8 zzu8 F8z NiT xa kVH De: # bA n8H hua iv8 zwiV kVH rV r3. # Fnu8 kie NiT hua iv8 de rV
11:51:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132324&oldid=131665 * PrySigneToFry * (+95) /* Talking page is moved. */ new section
12:00:27 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132325&oldid=132322 * Yayimhere * (+1)
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12:02:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132326&oldid=132325 * Yayimhere * (-13)
12:04:21 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132327&oldid=132296 * Yayimhere * (+127)
12:26:07 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132328&oldid=132298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* looping counter(with newlines) */
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12:40:13 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132329&oldid=131756 * Yayimhere * (+6)
12:54:12 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132330&oldid=132329 * Yayimhere * (+192)
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12:56:52 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132331&oldid=132330 * Yayimhere * (+86)
12:58:06 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132332&oldid=132238 * Squareroot12621 * (+407) Expanded Functions and All functions.
13:00:18 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132333&oldid=132331 * Yayimhere * (+256)
13:03:57 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132334&oldid=132333 * Yayimhere * (-1425) Replaced content with "scrapped"
13:07:35 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132335&oldid=132334 * Yayimhere * (+964) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/132334|132334]] by [[Special:Contributions/Yayimhere|Yayimhere]] ([[User talk:Yayimhere|talk]])
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13:11:40 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132336&oldid=132335 * Yayimhere * (+326)
13:40:42 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132337&oldid=132336 * Yayimhere * (+80)
13:48:15 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132338&oldid=132337 * Yayimhere * (+53)
14:05:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132339&oldid=131593 * PrySigneToFry * (+306)
14:09:05 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132340&oldid=132338 * Yayimhere * (+266)
14:10:22 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132341&oldid=132340 * Yayimhere * (-2)
14:12:39 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132342&oldid=132341 * Yayimhere * (-312)
14:14:41 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132343&oldid=132342 * Yayimhere * (+114)
14:15:36 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132344&oldid=132343 * Yayimhere * (+39)
14:16:28 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132345&oldid=132344 * Yayimhere * (+68)
14:18:19 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132346&oldid=132345 * Yayimhere * (+143)
14:18:28 <fowl> how can I profit off of the LLM crazy and integrate AI into an esolang
14:19:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132347&oldid=132339 * PrySigneToFry * (+362) /* There are two "Elang" now. */ new section
14:33:33 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132348&oldid=132332 * Squareroot12621 * (+433) Moved All functions to inside Functions, added more stuff.
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14:48:30 <wib_jonas> fowl: study LLMs, put it on your CV, get a job wrangling them, that's how you profit. esolangs are irrelevant, you can't plan to profit from them by definition.
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15:02:54 <esolangs> [[Messenger/Python interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132349&oldid=132239 * Squareroot12621 * (+85) Fixed INT throwing an error when printed as a byte.
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15:12:41 <fowl> I know I'll never make money off of esolangs, maybe profit was the wrong word
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15:16:09 <int-e> You can try to teach an LLM how to write Malbolge programs and /maybe/ get one academic paper out of it ;-)
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15:22:02 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132350&oldid=132346 * Yayimhere * (+94)
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15:24:13 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132351&oldid=132232 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Other things */
15:27:01 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132352&oldid=131880 * Gilbert189 * (+986) /* An esolang as an engelang */ My Firefox can't take input so here's an intermediate
15:29:29 <fizzie> I was considering feeding all the wiki articles to do LoRA tuning or something on one of the pre-trained open LLMs to make it generate an esolangs.org article given a title. Sadly, many of the articles aren't... great. And I feel like for a lot of them, it's very hard to have any sort of meaningful connection between the title and content. So it probably wouldn't be all that impressive.
15:30:18 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132353&oldid=132309 * Ractangle * (+247) /* Commands */
15:30:48 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132354&oldid=132353 * Ractangle * (+0) /* A+B Problem */
15:31:00 <fizzie> There's a lot of "unreliable" esolangs (ones where a given operation only succeeds with some probability), and genAI is notoriously unreliable as well, so maybe you can combine those two ideas and do a language where the main source of frustration is having an LLM between you and execution to screw things up.
15:58:15 <esolangs> [[Messenger/Python interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132355&oldid=132349 * Squareroot12621 * (+240) Fixed various bugs.
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16:18:17 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132356&oldid=132350 * Yayimhere * (+10)
16:19:05 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132357&oldid=132348 * Squareroot12621 * (+258) Added Hello, World! program.
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16:24:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132358&oldid=132326 * Yayimhere * (+202)
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16:26:57 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132359&oldid=132351 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Esolangs = */
16:32:31 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132360&oldid=132357 * Squareroot12621 * (-4) Golfed Hello, World! program.
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16:44:02 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132361&oldid=132356 * Yayimhere * (+53)
16:46:05 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132362&oldid=132358 * Yayimhere * (+43)
16:47:52 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132363&oldid=132362 * Yayimhere * (+48)
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17:10:24 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132364&oldid=132361 * Yayimhere * (+1)
17:15:58 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132365&oldid=132364 * Yayimhere * (+201)
17:19:26 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132366&oldid=132365 * Yayimhere * (+27)
17:20:23 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132367&oldid=132366 * Yayimhere * (+39)
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17:22:13 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132368&oldid=132367 * Yayimhere * (+33)
17:22:37 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132369&oldid=132368 * Yayimhere * (+26)
17:24:10 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132370&oldid=132369 * Yayimhere * (+86)
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17:24:24 <sbak> fizzie: https://github.com/TodePond/DreamBerd
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17:29:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132371&oldid=132282 * Tommyaweosme * (+200)
17:30:10 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132372&oldid=132370 * Yayimhere * (+34)
17:31:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132373&oldid=132319 * Tommyaweosme * (+40)
17:33:27 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132374&oldid=132372 * Yayimhere * (+331)
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17:45:20 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132375&oldid=132374 * Yayimhere * (+72)
17:46:09 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132376&oldid=132375 * Yayimhere * (+13)
17:49:38 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132377&oldid=132376 * Yayimhere * (-35)
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17:50:30 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132378&oldid=132377 * Yayimhere * (+39)
17:58:01 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132379&oldid=132378 * Yayimhere * (+5)
18:08:40 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132380&oldid=132379 * Yayimhere * (-1)
18:17:07 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132381&oldid=132380 * Yayimhere * (+305)
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18:19:25 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132382&oldid=132381 * Yayimhere * (+1)
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18:27:26 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132383&oldid=132382 * Yayimhere * (+323)
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18:55:15 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132384&oldid=132383 * Yayimhere * (-322)
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19:12:33 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132385&oldid=132354 * Ractangle * (+49) /* Commands */
19:14:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[ELang]] to [[E-Language]]: move requested by author
19:15:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[E-Language]] to [[E-language]]: correct move
19:17:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132388&oldid=132347 * Ais523 * (+344) /* There are two "Elang" now. */ done, but it doesn't need admin help
19:26:31 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132389&oldid=132384 * Yayimhere * (+36)
19:29:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Brainstoremax ascii loop.png]]"
19:29:26 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132391&oldid=132385 * Ractangle * (-589) /* Commands */
19:38:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Brainstoremax hello world.png]]"
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19:38:40 <esolangs> [[Brainstoremax]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132393 * Tommyaweosme * (+455) Created page with "Brainfuck has 8 commands. > < + - [ ] . , 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Convert to base 8. A single byte can store 4 commands. Convert to base 16. A single pixel can store 12 commands. Convert to hexcode. Add to image. You now have brainfuck script in small amount of pi
19:49:02 <esolangs> [[COPIED!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132394&oldid=130380 * Yayimhere * (+37)
19:49:08 <zzo38> Should you mention that the ICFP 2014 is similar than the SECD machine? There seems some similarities as well as some differences.
20:25:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SquirrelCorn * New user account
20:33:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132395&oldid=132214 * SquirrelCorn * (+182) did verification thing
20:34:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132396&oldid=132395 * SquirrelCorn * (+1) fixed minor typo
20:38:08 <esolangs> [[Squick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132397 * SquirrelCorn * (+291) Created page with "Squick is a furry themed esolang designed to be as hard to program in as possible. == Entomology: == Squick is a furry slang term refering to do/wear/say something unexpected with the intention of perplexing outsiders by advertising in an obvious manner one's affili
20:40:06 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132398&oldid=132397 * SquirrelCorn * (-85)
20:41:40 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132399&oldid=132398 * SquirrelCorn * (+221) /* Coding Interface: */
20:42:12 <esolangs> [[Squick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132400&oldid=132399 * SquirrelCorn * (+56)
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21:47:10 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132401&oldid=132360 * Squareroot12621 * (+145) Added primality detector.
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22:46:46 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132402&oldid=132401 * Squareroot12621 * (+33) Fixed primality detector for inputs below 2.
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23:04:02 <zzo38> I also had many idea of adding instruction into the General Compute Coprocessor, e.g. unsigned arithmetic, bitwise, and other extensions.
23:05:00 <zzo38> A security extension adds three instructions: LDP (loads a program and makes a closure whose environment has no parent frame, and the instruction address points to beginning of the loaded program), HIDE (like AP but adds a stop to the data stack and return stack), THIDE (like TAP but discards everything from the data stack up to but not including the nearest stop).
23:25:38 <zzo38> And then, if RTN encounters a stop, the stop is removed, everything above the nearest stop in the data stack is removed and put into a list and the stop itself is also removed, and then the RTN operation continues. STOP will do something similar, but gets rid of everything above the stop in the returns tack. Any other instruction encountering a stop in the data stack is an error (even if it does nothing with it).
23:42:23 <zzo38> Do you think it is good enough?
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00:29:16 <esolangs> [[Squick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132403&oldid=132400 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) Categories
00:50:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainstoremax]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132404 * None1 * (+109) Created page with "A pixel can only store 8 commands. --~~~~"
01:17:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * None1 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Pocketfuck tm.png]]": Shorter Truth Machine
01:19:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * None1 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Pocketfuck xkcdrn.png]]": Shorter XKCD Random Number
01:21:51 <esolangs> [[PocketFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132407&oldid=129909 * None1 * (+8) /* Example Programs */
01:22:36 <esolangs> [[PocketFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132408&oldid=132407 * None1 * (+130) /* Example Programs */
01:25:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * None1 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Pocketfuck hello.png]]": Shorter
01:27:36 <esolangs> [[Brainstoremax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132410&oldid=132393 * None1 * (+144) /* Hello world */
01:31:36 <esolangs> [[PocketFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132411&oldid=132408 * None1 * (+102) /* Interpreters */
02:15:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Pocketfuck bf.png]]": [[dbfi]] based brainfuck interpreter in [[PocketFuck]]
02:17:47 <esolangs> [[ELang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132413 * PrySigneToFry * (+24) Redirected page to [[E-language]]
02:24:33 <esolangs> [[PocketFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132414&oldid=132411 * None1 * (+115) /* Example Programs */
02:24:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132415&oldid=132373 * PrySigneToFry * (+370)
02:28:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132416&oldid=132415 * PrySigneToFry * (+580)
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03:58:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132417&oldid=132371 * PrySigneToFry * (+333)
03:59:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132418&oldid=132417 * PrySigneToFry * (+197)
04:09:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132419&oldid=132418 * None1 * (+213) /* */
04:17:31 <esolangs> [[PocketFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132420&oldid=132414 * None1 * (+87) /* How to write Programs */
04:17:42 <esolangs> [[PocketFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132421&oldid=132420 * None1 * (+0) /* How to write Programs */
04:42:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132422&oldid=33374 * None1 * (+142) /* Dead links */ new section
04:59:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132423&oldid=132419 * PrySigneToFry * (+429)
05:35:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * New user account
05:39:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132424&oldid=132396 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+109) Added an introduction
05:43:16 <esolangs> [[LOLCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132425&oldid=128737 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+419) Added code for a truth-machine
05:43:57 <esolangs> [[LOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132426&oldid=132425 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+6) /* Truth-Machine */
06:05:23 <esolangs> [[(*)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132427 * Gggfr * (+834) Created page with "'''(*)''' is a esolang invented by [[User:Yayimhere]] thats about recursion == Memory == Memory is stored in a tape with 3 cells. Each cell is a stack. a maximum of 5 things on each stack == Syntax == The syntax of '''(*)''' {| class="wikitable" |+ Syntax |- ! Symbol !! Meanin
06:06:36 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132428&oldid=131275 * Gggfr * (+19) /* Real Quines */
06:12:14 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132429&oldid=132427 * Gggfr * (+91)
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07:20:10 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132430&oldid=132403 * SquirrelCorn * (+391) /* Coding Interface: */
07:24:45 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132431&oldid=132430 * SquirrelCorn * (+130)
07:48:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LilGalaxy * New user account
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09:42:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * SquirrelCorn * moved [[Squick]] to [[Confuzzle]]
09:46:42 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132434&oldid=132432 * SquirrelCorn * (-950)
09:49:26 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132435&oldid=132434 * SquirrelCorn * (+127)
09:50:32 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132436&oldid=132435 * SquirrelCorn * (-2)
09:50:58 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132437&oldid=132436 * SquirrelCorn * (+17)
09:54:21 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132438&oldid=132391 * Ractangle * (+540)
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09:56:05 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132439&oldid=132437 * SquirrelCorn * (+95)
09:56:31 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132440&oldid=132439 * SquirrelCorn * (+4)
09:59:37 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132441&oldid=132440 * SquirrelCorn * (+187)
10:04:46 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132442&oldid=132438 * Ractangle * (+135)
10:05:34 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132443&oldid=132442 * Ractangle * (+44) /* Computational Class */
10:05:51 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132444&oldid=132443 * Ractangle * (+13) /* Computational Class */
10:07:04 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132445&oldid=132444 * Ractangle * (+54) /* Computational Class */
10:08:42 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132446&oldid=132445 * Ractangle * (+37) /* Computational Class */
10:09:26 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132447&oldid=132446 * Ractangle * (+66) /* See Also */
10:16:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132448&oldid=132423 * None1 * (+109)
10:32:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:0x29A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132449&oldid=74295 * None1 * (+216)
10:36:07 <esolangs> [[Confuzzle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132450&oldid=132441 * SquirrelCorn * (+93)
10:48:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132451&oldid=130197 * PrySigneToFry * (+305)
10:53:17 <esolangs> [[B (None1)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132452&oldid=132171 * None1 * (+16) /* See also */
10:58:09 <esolangs> [[Pocketfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132453 * None1 * (+25) Created page with "# REDIRECT [[PocketFuck]]"
10:58:20 <esolangs> [[Pocketfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132454&oldid=132453 * None1 * (-1) Redirected page to [[PocketFuck]]
11:04:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132455&oldid=131865 * PrySigneToFry * (+1012) /* Timezone */ new section
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11:16:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132456&oldid=132455 * None1 * (+108) /* Timezone */
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11:38:26 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132457&oldid=130007 * None1 * (+8) /* x = x ^ y */ Using ^ is confusing (may mean xor or pow)
11:49:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132458&oldid=32793 * None1 * (+163) /* Dead links */ new section
11:54:35 <esolangs> [[Bundle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132459&oldid=111144 * OllyTheFoldy * (-4) Redirect links from replit to GitHub Pages
11:59:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132460&oldid=132456 * PrySigneToFry * (+381)
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13:09:48 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132461&oldid=132429 * Gggfr * (+240)
13:10:17 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132462&oldid=132461 * Gggfr * (+0)
13:10:35 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132463&oldid=132462 * Gggfr * (-2)
13:18:38 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132464&oldid=132463 * Gggfr * (+105)
13:24:59 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132465&oldid=132428 * Gggfr * (-19)
13:26:37 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132466&oldid=132465 * Gggfr * (+19) /* Cheating Quines */
13:34:02 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132467&oldid=132464 * Gggfr * (+90)
13:34:16 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132468&oldid=132467 * Gggfr * (+0)
13:35:53 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132469&oldid=132468 * Gggfr * (+1)
13:37:14 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132470&oldid=132469 * Gggfr * (+13)
13:41:20 <fizzie> I just don't get why there's like a steady ~7qps of traffic specifically to hack.esolangs.org destinations per https://zem.fi/tmp/qps.png -- there's nothing particularly interesting in there.
13:42:57 <fizzie> Per the logs it's mostly just Anthropic's ClaudeBot crawling things like /repo/annotate/d06d884477a4/wisdom/overworld and /repo/comparison/a4ee9fefe8d7/paste/paste.22681 and /repo/diff/34f2c0d8a6e8/bin/karma%2B and whatnot.
13:43:19 <fizzie> Guess there's a lot of technically unique URLs in the hgweb if you take all the possible diffs and revisions into account.
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14:00:45 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132471 * PrySigneToFry * (+3288) Created page with " is designed by PSTF. == Command table == {| class="wikitable" |+ Table |- ! This !! BF |- | || <nowiki>></nowiki> |- | || <nowiki><</nowiki> |- | || <nowiki>+</nowiki> |- | || <nowiki>-</nowiki> |- | || <nowiki>.</nowiki> |- | || <nowiki>,</nowiki> |- | || <nowi
14:01:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132472&oldid=132315 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
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14:21:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132473&oldid=70612 * PrySigneToFry * (+304) /* This maybe like my . */ new section
14:47:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132474&oldid=132416 * PrySigneToFry * (+273)
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15:02:11 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132475&oldid=132447 * Ractangle * (+124) /* Commands */
15:02:48 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132476&oldid=132475 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Commands */
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18:47:20 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132477&oldid=132470 * Gggfr * (+10) /* examples */
18:57:38 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132478 * Gggfr * (+482) Created page with "''',(*+)''' is a esolang made by [[User:yayimhere]] with only recursion. The only three commands are: * () enqueue whats on tha brackets including the brackets themselves. The inside * [] dequeue the front value and replace the brackets and whats in them with that * = dequeu
19:16:30 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132479&oldid=109704 * Ilikecreepers * (+1)
19:28:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132480&oldid=132363 * Gggfr * (+21)
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20:09:34 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132481&oldid=132476 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Commands */
20:16:15 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132482&oldid=132481 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Commands */
20:18:32 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132483&oldid=132482 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Commands */
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21:42:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132484&oldid=132448 * Tommyaweosme * (+235)
21:42:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132485&oldid=132484 * Tommyaweosme * (+2)
21:44:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainstoremax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132486&oldid=132404 * Tommyaweosme * (+132)
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21:55:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132487&oldid=132451 * Tommyaweosme * (+461)
22:03:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132488&oldid=132424 * LilGalaxy * (+149)
22:05:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132489&oldid=132488 * LilGalaxy * (+59)
22:05:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132490&oldid=132489 * LilGalaxy * (+12)
22:06:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132491&oldid=132490 * LilGalaxy * (+12)
22:10:30 <esolangs> [[PROGRAMCODEYOU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132492 * Tommyaweosme * (+1009) Created page with "PROGRAMCODEYOU is a version of [[SovietCode]] by [[User:Tommyaweosme]] == Commands == IN AMERICA, - optional. backwards version of script where everything is like it should be IN SOVIET RUSSIA, - starts scripts MEMORY CELL MOVE YOU!!! - moves memory point
22:10:43 <esolangs> [[PROGRAMCODEYOU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132493&oldid=132492 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) switch.
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22:53:40 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132494&oldid=131465 * Timwi * (+117) add function
00:09:04 <esolangs> [[Jail system is Turing-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132495 * Tommyaweosme * (+757) Created page with "Let's assume there are infinite people (there aren't really, but that doesn't matter), and there is one judge. The judge can go from interviewing different people at a time, so <code>></code> and <code><</code> are down. Since [[Brainfuck]]'
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00:11:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jail system makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132496&oldid=116142 * Tommyaweosme * (+250)
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01:17:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Duoquadragesimal * New user account
01:22:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132497&oldid=132491 * Duoquadragesimal * (+187) /* Introductions */
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02:23:56 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132498&oldid=131568 * Tommyaweosme * (+170)
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02:44:13 <esolangs> [[Eafish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132499 * Tommyaweosme * (+459) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''eafish''' is [[Deadfish]] without the d command. It also doesn't follow the tradition of 256=0, so theres no going back if you accidentally square or increment the counter. == UI == There is 3 buttons. Increment, square, and output. Output prints the
02:44:19 <esolangs> [[Eafish/HTML Interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132500 * Tommyaweosme * (+372) Created page with "<h1>eafish interpeter</h1> <p id="o"></p> <button onclick="incr()">increment</button> <button onclick="squa()">square</button> <button onclick="outp()">output</button> <script> whar=0 function incr(){ whar+=1 } function squa(
03:02:36 <esolangs> [[Roko]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132501 * Duoquadragesimal * (+1078) Created page
03:05:13 <esolangs> [[Roko]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132502&oldid=132501 * Duoquadragesimal * (+5) dont confuse
03:06:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132503&oldid=132472 * Duoquadragesimal * (+11) Added Roko
03:21:54 <esolangs> [[Roko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132504&oldid=132502 * Duoquadragesimal * (+647) Added categories, added a section
03:27:35 <esolangs> [[Roko]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132505&oldid=132504 * Duoquadragesimal * (+66) add more categories
04:27:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132506&oldid=132474 * PrySigneToFry * (+186)
04:34:15 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132507&oldid=131677 * PrySigneToFry * (+429)
04:37:37 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132508&oldid=132507 * PrySigneToFry * (+164)
04:42:45 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132509&oldid=129724 * PrySigneToFry * (-24)
04:47:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132510&oldid=132485 * PrySigneToFry * (+397)
04:50:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132511&oldid=132460 * PrySigneToFry * (+265)
04:56:25 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132512&oldid=132323 * PrySigneToFry * (+362)
04:58:16 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132513&oldid=132512 * PrySigneToFry * (+57)
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07:11:20 <esolangs> [[Incremental Model]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132514 * Salpynx * (+3687) I think this works as a computational model, it may need adjustment as a working clicker game...
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08:59:11 <esolangs> [[Incremental Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132515&oldid=132514 * Salpynx * (+59) /* External resources */ Incremental game on Wikipedia
09:51:11 <esolangs> [[Esolangs.org]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132516 * Aadenboy * (+3402) possibly
09:52:26 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132517&oldid=132115 * Aadenboy * (+38) /* my esolangs */ updated
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12:20:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132518&oldid=132503 * Aadenboy * (+19) /* E */ added lang
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13:10:34 <esolangs> [[EmojiLang in Chinese]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132519 * PrySigneToFry * (+2854) Created page with "In order to make it easier for some programmers to program, I designed this programming language. (That's what I've always done!) EmojiLang in Chinese (Elic(<nowiki>[elk]</nowiki>) for short) is based on Mihai Popa's Emojilang. == Command Table == {
13:12:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132520&oldid=132518 * PrySigneToFry * (+85)
13:14:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132521&oldid=132506 * PrySigneToFry * (+124)
13:51:55 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132522&oldid=132513 * PrySigneToFry * (+57)
14:17:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132523&oldid=132388 * PrySigneToFry * (+284)
14:25:06 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132524&oldid=132483 * Ractangle * (-67) /* Cat program */
14:25:18 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132525&oldid=132524 * Ractangle * (-141) /* Errors */
14:25:28 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132526&oldid=132525 * Ractangle * (-96) /* A+B Problem */
14:25:53 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132527&oldid=132294 * Ractangle * (-97) /* 4ME */
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15:05:37 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132528&oldid=132526 * Ractangle * (-64) /* Commands */
15:28:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:My github profile read me.png]]"
15:49:33 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132530&oldid=132528 * MihaiEso * (+31) /* Errors */
15:50:19 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Opening square bracket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132531&oldid=132003 * Ractangle * (+204)
15:51:42 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132532&oldid=132530 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* See Also */
16:00:37 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132533&oldid=132532 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Commands */
16:05:32 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132534&oldid=132533 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Commands */
16:06:22 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132535&oldid=132534 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Commands */
16:15:18 <esolangs> [[None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132536&oldid=132076 * MihaiEso * (-1)
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17:05:21 <esolangs> [[SynDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132537&oldid=20968 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) Category
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17:17:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132538&oldid=132480 * Gggfr * (-12)
17:17:46 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132539&oldid=132478 * Gggfr * (-12)
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17:30:51 <esolangs> [[Backway]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132540&oldid=129544 * Gggfr * (-131)
17:32:02 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132541&oldid=132535 * Ractangle * (-37) /* Commands */
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17:52:27 <esolangs> [[@ complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132542 * Gggfr * (+230) Created page with "'''@ completeness''' is a concept made by [[User:yayimhere]]. === Meaning === A esolang thats @ complete must be able to do two things # replace the code with something in memory # put code into memory A example of this is [[(*)]]"
17:52:53 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132543&oldid=132541 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Commands */
17:53:01 <esolangs> [[@ complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132544&oldid=132542 * Gggfr * (+22)
17:54:05 <esolangs> [[@ complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132545&oldid=132544 * Gggfr * (+0)
17:56:29 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132546&oldid=132543 * Ractangle * (+41)
17:56:45 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132547&oldid=132546 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Cat program */
17:57:29 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132548&oldid=132477 * Gggfr * (+28)
17:58:15 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132549&oldid=132548 * Gggfr * (-9)
17:58:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Byte]] to [[User:U]]
17:58:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:U]] to [[User:Ractangle/U]]
17:59:26 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132554&oldid=132552 * Ractangle * (-1950) Replaced content with "{{Stub}} '''U''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[Ractangle]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Non-textual]][[Category:2024]]"
18:09:37 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132555&oldid=132547 * Ractangle * (+48) /* Commands */
18:10:39 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132556&oldid=132555 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Computational Class */
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18:35:40 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132557&oldid=132498 * Tommyaweosme * (-1948) Replaced content with "AHHHHHHHHHHH ROBLOX ONE DAY BANNED ME FOR HARRASSING BUY I DIDNT MEAN IT"
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18:45:19 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132558&oldid=132538 * Gggfr * (+99)
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18:59:01 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132559&oldid=132558 * Gggfr * (+6)
19:53:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * SquirrelCorn * moved [[Confuzzle]] to [[Squick]] over redirect
19:53:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * SquirrelCorn * SquirrelCorn deleted redirect [[Squick]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Confuzzle]]"
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20:08:30 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132562&oldid=132560 * SquirrelCorn * (+428)
20:23:47 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132563&oldid=132527 * Ractangle * (+2) (mostly) fixed the alignment
20:24:42 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132564&oldid=132563 * Ractangle * (-24) /* SPIKE */
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20:43:23 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132565&oldid=132556 * Ractangle * (-23)
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20:55:12 <esolangs> [[Sesos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132566 * Ais523 * (+6546) documenting someone else's language from 2016
20:55:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132567&oldid=132520 * Ais523 * (+12) /* S */ +[[Sesos]]
20:56:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainstoremax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132568&oldid=132486 * Ais523 * (+601) the problem is in the number of commands per byte, not the number of bytes per pixel
21:02:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jail system makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132569&oldid=132496 * Ais523 * (+233) suggesting deletion
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21:43:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jail system makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132570&oldid=132569 * Tommyaweosme * (+277) /* Deletion? */
21:45:27 <esolangs> [[Brainstoremax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132571&oldid=132410 * Tommyaweosme * (+3)
21:50:13 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132572&oldid=120120 * .yazic * (+166)
21:59:55 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132573&oldid=132150 * Tommyaweosme * (+343)
22:00:13 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132574&oldid=132573 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* Poetic */ oops
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22:05:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Rc ascii loop.png]]"
22:11:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Rc letter A.png]]"
22:21:31 <esolangs> [[Rubik's Cube]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132577 * Tommyaweosme * (+887) Created page with "Rubik's cube is an esolang by [[User:Tommyaweosme]] where every rubik's cube algorithm is a valid program. (It adds on missing brackets at start and end) == Commands == L < R > F + B - U [ D ] U2 . D2 , == Ascii loop == F U U2 F D This leaves the Rubik
22:24:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132578&oldid=132521 * Tommyaweosme * (+139)
22:43:52 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132579 * Tommyaweosme * (+638) Created page with "Infinite commands??? is a programming language with (almost) infinite commands. Anyone can add commands. == Commands == print - prints a string (the string is next command) ask - asks the user a question say - prints the answer to the last question
22:45:24 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132580&oldid=132579 * Tommyaweosme * (+57)
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00:05:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132581&oldid=132578 * PrySigneToFry * (+323)
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01:54:26 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132582&oldid=132299 * Joe * (+236)
02:12:48 <esolangs> [[AnyGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132583&oldid=126508 * Tommyaweosme * (+66) /* Commands */
04:04:12 <esolangs> [[Cheat (Gilbert189)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132584&oldid=131445 * Gilbert189 * (+299) Adds asking
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06:30:40 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132585&oldid=132565 * Ractangle * (-7) /* Errors */
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06:56:01 <esolangs> [[TF2LANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132586&oldid=126472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
06:56:11 <esolangs> [[TF2LANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132587&oldid=132586 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
06:58:07 <esolangs> [[Calculator fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132588&oldid=105824 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) /* Interpreter */ Categories
07:00:15 <esolangs> [[Calculator fuck/HTML Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132589&oldid=109090 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) Category
07:03:12 <esolangs> [[NIAGOAVR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132590&oldid=110679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Stub, categories
07:12:10 <esolangs> [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132591&oldid=131510 * Ractangle * (+10) /* + */
07:12:39 <esolangs> [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132592&oldid=132591 * Ractangle * (+0) /* +- */
07:13:01 <esolangs> [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132593&oldid=132592 * Ractangle * (+1) /* +-= */
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09:56:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:4ME logo.png.png]]"
09:56:49 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132596&oldid=132585 * Ractangle * (+46)
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12:25:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:DoubleFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132597&oldid=37807 * Smjg * (+757) /* Overlapping [] and {} loops */ new section
12:26:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:DoubleFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132598&oldid=132597 * Smjg * (+100) /* Overlapping [] and {} loops */
12:29:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:DoubleFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132599&oldid=132598 * Smjg * (-38) change my comment to a continuation of the earlier discussion
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13:19:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Unname4798 * New user account
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13:56:31 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132600&oldid=132580 * Tommyaweosme * (+1082)
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14:02:27 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132602&oldid=132601 * Tommyaweosme * (+10) /* Interpreter */ added input markers
14:03:21 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132603&oldid=132602 * Tommyaweosme * (-1) /* Interpreter */ stupidest bug in the world XD
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14:08:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132604&oldid=132497 * Unname4798 * (+241)
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14:14:22 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132605&oldid=132603 * Tommyaweosme * (+1021) added more commands
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15:41:25 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132608&oldid=132607 * Tommyaweosme * (-1562) fixing interpreter
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17:43:48 <esolangs> [[Q47]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132609 * Europe2048 * (+967) Created page with "'''Q47''' is a speedlang made by [[User:Europe2048|Europe2048]]. Unlike the others, it isn't a statue - I ''can'' update this language, so stay tuned for them! == Commands == === v1.0 === {| class="wikitable" ! Command !! Description |- | <code>0-9</code> || Pushes the c
17:46:25 <esolangs> [[Q47]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132610&oldid=132609 * Europe2048 * (+24) fixed formatting
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18:45:06 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132611&oldid=132557 * Ractangle * (+1948) well if you got banned from roblos for one day. YOU DON'T NEED TO VANDILISE YOUR OWN PAGE LIKE THAT
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19:51:42 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132612&oldid=132402 * Squareroot12621 * (+18) Added Category:2024.
19:53:52 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132613&oldid=132567 * Squareroot12621 * (+16)
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20:33:42 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132614&oldid=132258 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* Commands */
20:34:00 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132615&oldid=132614 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2) /* Commands */
20:36:53 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132616&oldid=132608 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
20:39:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132617&oldid=132133 * Ractangle * (+115) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */ new section
20:40:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132618&oldid=132617 * Ractangle * (+25) /* Categories for type systems */
20:40:11 <esolangs> [[Stisp/Lisp interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132619&oldid=102556 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Category
20:40:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132620&oldid=132618 * Ractangle * (+117) /* Categories for type systems */
20:40:48 <esolangs> [[Stisp/Lisp interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132621&oldid=132619 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) Category
20:41:04 <esolangs> [[Stisp/Lisp interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132622&oldid=132621 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
20:41:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132623&oldid=132620 * Ractangle * (+117) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */
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22:25:07 <esolangs> [[MIRROR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132624&oldid=131459 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Programs */
22:29:03 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132625&oldid=132263 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2) /* truth-machine */
22:29:18 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132626&oldid=132625 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* truth-machine */
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00:03:37 <esolangs> [[Satarcrimp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132627&oldid=125355 * PrySigneToFry * (+274)
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00:34:12 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132628&oldid=132616 * Tommyaweosme * (+44)
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00:39:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132629 * Tommyaweosme * (+170) Created page with "yoy you made an account on the esowiki! !! ! !:D ~~~~"
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02:47:42 <esolangs> [[Txet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132630 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3348) Created page with "'''Txet''' is a programming language that was made by [[Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] and has 2 forms of memory, a 1d tape where each cell has a one-character name, and an a
02:47:56 <esolangs> [[Txet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132631&oldid=132630 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+5)
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03:55:37 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132632 * Unname4798 * (+74) Created page with "== My esolangs == [[Deadfsh]] - [[Deadfish]] without the increment command"
04:00:18 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132633 * Unname4798 * (+392) Created page with "Deadfsh is an esolang like [[Deadfish]], but there is no increment command. == Commands == d - decrement s - square o - output == Interpreter == var input = "ddso"; var number = 0; for (var i = 0; i < input.length; i++) { if (input[i] = d) { number -= 1;
04:01:17 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132634&oldid=132633 * Unname4798 * (+38) author
04:02:04 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132635&oldid=132634 * Unname4798 * (+46) examples
04:02:18 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132636&oldid=132635 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:02:35 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132637&oldid=132636 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:05:47 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132638&oldid=132637 * Unname4798 * (+81) categories
04:07:55 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132639&oldid=132638 * Unname4798 * (+4)
04:09:03 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132640&oldid=131772 * Unname4798 * (+26) /* Deadfish */
04:17:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132641&oldid=132629 * Unname4798 * (+15) sorted by grade
04:27:11 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132642&oldid=132639 * Unname4798 * (+163) variants
04:27:42 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132643&oldid=132642 * Unname4798 * (+5)
04:28:21 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132644&oldid=132643 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:31:07 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132645&oldid=132644 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:32:16 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132646&oldid=132645 * Unname4798 * (+6)
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06:49:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132647&oldid=132623 * Ais523 * (+1217) /* Categories for type systems */ my views
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06:55:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132648&oldid=132647 * Ais523 * (+1503) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */ why this is so hard to define
07:01:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CadenC * New user account
07:07:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132649&oldid=132604 * CadenC * (+208) /* Introductions */
07:28:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132650&oldid=132613 * LilGalaxy * (+10)
07:32:37 <esolangs> [[Da0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132651 * LilGalaxy * (+2525) Created page with "== Da0 == Da0 is an advanced computational framework designed for parallel processing, data management, and complex algorithmic operations. It integrates classical computing elements with parallel processing capabilities, utilizing a unique syntax and structure. === Fun
07:40:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * LilGalaxy * uploaded "[[File:Da0 Terminal.png]]"
07:42:16 <esolangs> [[Da0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132653&oldid=132651 * LilGalaxy * (+3485)
07:46:08 <esolangs> [[Da0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132654&oldid=132653 * LilGalaxy * (+1328)
07:49:31 <esolangs> [[Da0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132655&oldid=132654 * LilGalaxy * (+10723)
07:50:21 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132656 * CadenC * (+3509) Created page with "== EHTML == EHTML is a programming language that is very syntactically similar to HTML. It was created because HTML is not a programming language, despite what people unfamiliar with programming languages might think. === Language overview === The language's statements ar
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07:59:22 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132657&oldid=132656 * CadenC * (+3681)
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08:00:37 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132658&oldid=132657 * CadenC * (+37)
08:03:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132659&oldid=132650 * CadenC * (+12) /* E */
08:08:52 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132660&oldid=132658 * CadenC * (+60)
08:09:57 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132661&oldid=132660 * CadenC * (-12)
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09:39:02 <cpressey> Hello. Suppose I have a leftmost-innermost term rewriting system, and I have implemented it thusly: 1. from the root term, find the leftmost, innermost subterm that can be rewritten (call it s). 2. if s exists, rewrite it and go to step 1; otherwise, terminate.
09:39:50 <cpressey> Now, it feels like there should be a more efficient way to do this, where we do not need to return all the way back to the root term on every iteration.
09:41:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132662&oldid=132511 * None1 * (+0) /* I'm really going to die by laughing */
09:44:18 <cpressey> Actually, I'm sure there is, I think it's more a matter of, (a) I can't clearly see how you would go about proving it, (b) in the grand scheme of things it's probably not an optimization worth doing.
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10:04:17 <cpressey> "An optimization worth doing" would be automatically deriving an equivalent imperative program (or even a functional one) from the rewrite rules. But if that were easy to do, the world would look very different, I reckon
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10:31:57 <wib_jonas> cpressey: is this the ICFP 2024 language, and if so, do you want to support the mutable bindings?
10:32:33 <cpressey> To the best of my knowledge this is not the ICFP 2024 language
10:33:32 <wib_jonas> That one is lazy lambda calculus with some weird variant where if a lambda uses a variable multiple times then it will evaluate whatever was passed to the argument multiple times.
10:34:46 <wib_jonas> Anyway, as for your question. When you rewrite a term, can that have a side effect that changes which parts can be evaluated even far from that term, or does it only affect evaluatable terms near itself because it gets replaced?
10:35:13 <int-e> Doesn't sound weird though... that's what you get with left-most outermost reduction in the term model.
10:35:13 <wib_jonas> int-e: yeah, my problem is that I'm not sure if you can even do proper calculations in this ICFP 2024 thing without the runtime blowing up
10:35:21 <int-e> I haven't looked at the contest.
10:35:42 <wib_jonas> int-e: as a mathematical model, sure, but for actual computation it sounds strange. why not just evaluate every term only once?
10:36:10 <wib_jonas> also it doesn't actually have a mutable binding extension, I confused it with the earlier GCC language (from an earlier ICFP contest) which does have such an extension
10:37:40 <wib_jonas> cpressey: I have never really thought about this in general. I considered some languages as term-rewriting, like J or Underload or Unlambda or Consumer Society, but in those cases I know enough about special properties of the language that I know how to evaluate it using those
10:38:12 <wib_jonas> A lot of the term rewriting languages have special rules for what order they evaluate everything
10:45:30 <int-e> wib_jonas: I'd imagine that a driving factor here is ease of specification.
10:45:43 <wib_jonas> Of course some esoteric languages might deliberately be harder to evaluate because you have to search for some very general pattern, as opposed to practical languages
10:46:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132663&oldid=132648 * None1 * (+133) /* Categories for type systems */
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10:47:12 <wib_jonas> "The most prevalent ICFP messaging software, Macroware Insight, evaluates ICFP messages using a call-by-name strategy. This means that the binary application operator is non-strict; the second argument is substituted in the place of the binding variable (using capture-avoiding substitution). If an argument is not used in the body of the lambda
10:47:12 <wib_jonas> abstraction, such as v3 in the above example, it is never evaluated. When a variable is used several times, the expression is evaluated multiple times."
10:47:53 <int-e> Hmm and maybe it leaves more room for fruitful optimization on the submission side?
10:48:04 <wib_jonas> "As communication with Earth is complicated, the Cult seems to have put some restrictions on their Macroware Insight software. Specifically, message processing is aborted when exceeding 10_000_000 beta reductions. Built-in operators are strict (except for B$, of course) and do not count towards the limit of beta reductions. Contestants' messages
10:48:04 <wib_jonas> therefore must stay within these limits."
10:48:17 <int-e> Yeah I found that.
10:48:18 <wib_jonas> int-e: ^ evaluating multiple times batters because of that limit on beta reduction
10:48:21 <wib_jonas> https://icfpcontest2024.github.io/icfp.html
10:48:45 <int-e> b... matters I guess
10:48:47 <wib_jonas> yes, I think if you're evaluating terms then you can evaluate arguments only once
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10:49:45 <int-e> it's a choice *shrugs*
10:50:18 <int-e> it also says "beta reduction" so does arithmetic even count?
10:51:10 <wib_jonas> no: Built-in operators are strict (except for B$, of course) and do not count towards the limit of beta reductions.
10:51:58 <wib_jonas> I wonder if there's a reasonable way to compile any program efficiently to this weird repeated argument evaluation thing
10:52:53 <int-e> just do all your computation on strings
10:53:18 <wib_jonas> Maybe... I don't know if you can make that work
10:53:40 <wib_jonas> because even then you'll have to access the same string multiple times
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10:54:10 <int-e> it should give you something close enough to a RAM model
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11:01:39 <cpressey> In my thing, rewriting a subterm is referentially transparent. The contest thing sounds like it's some kind of cache design problem, where you want to memoize the reductions to prevent redundant recomputations, but also throw out the memo when its dependencies change
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11:24:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jail system makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132664&oldid=132570 * None1 * (+174) /* Deletion? */
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11:37:05 <esolangs> [[Violation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132666&oldid=114918 * None1 * (+29) /* See also */ missed one
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11:54:32 <cpressey> For my thing, I didn't even mean to end up at term rewriting again. The paths just kind of led there.
11:56:29 <esolangs> [[ReadArticle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132669&oldid=116572 * Unname4798 * (+38) self interpreter
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12:08:18 <b_jonas> int-e: I think if you have a string that you compute somehow, and you want to use it twice, there's no other way than to pass it to a lambda as argument (possibly indirectly, wrapped in other lambdas), and then use that argument twice. and then whatever you passed as argument will be evaluated twice. and since this is a pure functional language, that argument has to repeat the whole computation when
12:08:24 <b_jonas> evaluated, it can't just load from a slot because the only slots are function arguments. maybe there's a way around this, but I don't see what. I don't think you can do anything useful if you don't use the string twice.
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12:12:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132670&oldid=132663 * Ais523 * (+186) /* Categories for type systems */ most esolangs don't have variables in the traditional sense
12:22:58 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132671&oldid=132082 * Ais523 * (+5) apparently we got sufficiently good at stopping spam that "most" not longer accurately describes the proportion of users that are spambots
12:28:41 <esolangs> [[BIX Queue Subset]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132672&oldid=117112 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Core BIX Queue Subset */ fix typo
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12:37:48 <int-e> b_jonas: but as long as your arguments are free of beta-redexes reusing them does not incur any cost
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13:09:28 <int-e> b_jonas: so for example, (\f. f f) (\f a b n. if n == 0 then a else f f b (a+b) (n-1)) 0 1 40 will evaluate to 102334155 in just 161 beta steps.
13:11:04 <int-e> And sure, it's millions of additions if you evaluate it naively but those are free in the cost model. Also, you can reasonably avoid that by evaluating beta-redex free values eagerly, without changing cost or semantics
13:14:12 <esolangs> [[(*)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132673&oldid=132549 * Gggfr * (+0)
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14:54:57 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132674&oldid=132190 * Hakerh400 * (-63) Actually, it is not known whether RSA cryptanalysis is in P or NP
15:24:10 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132675&oldid=132582 * Joe * (+136)
15:27:31 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132676&oldid=132675 * Joe * (+88)
16:08:58 <cpressey> Sufficiently-abstract-notion-of-term sufficiently-abstraction-notion-of-rewriting sufficiently-abstract-notion-of-system
16:09:55 <int-e> speaking-in-riddles
16:19:06 <cpressey> I should probably just go and write the code instead of being obtuse as a substitute for articulating my thoughts in English
16:26:17 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132677&oldid=132661 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
16:33:56 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132678 * Ractangle * (+1184) Created page with "{{Stub}} '''Fortuludmium''' is a esolang where it uses Fortuludmium syntax ('''Fortuludmium langauge''' (or '''Fortuludmium syntax''') is a type of esolangs where there are two structures. Line numbers in code and mostly small instruction set) ==Commands== {| cla
16:33:59 <esolangs> [[Da0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132679&oldid=132655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) Categories
16:34:20 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132680&oldid=132678 * Ractangle * (+23)
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16:37:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132681&oldid=132670 * Ractangle * (+57) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */
16:37:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132682&oldid=132681 * Ractangle * (+117) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */
16:39:06 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132683&oldid=132680 * Ractangle * (+19)
16:39:23 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132684&oldid=132683 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Commands */
17:06:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheCanon2 * New user account
17:10:16 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132685&oldid=132677 * Ractangle * (+136)
17:20:07 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132686&oldid=130850 * Zip * (+111) Corrected I/O section
17:23:27 <b_jonas> int-e: I see. So you have to set up your loop in such a way that you have an if dispatch outside and the tail recursive calls inside, and then the parameters that you pass recursively have no function applications and so no cost in the cost model. You have to avoid passing the function calls themselves in the argument. Interesting. That might indeed work with the strings too.
17:24:20 <b_jonas> It does seem to me like an interesting restriction on how you have to write the program, and is new to me.
17:24:23 <int-e> b_jonas: it's a bit sad of course because you abandon all functional programming
17:24:54 <int-e> this fragment is essentially a single while loop with finite control inside
17:24:56 <b_jonas> I wonder if such a restriction is known from somewhere before this ICFP.
17:26:08 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132687&oldid=131586 * CadenC * (+122) Added EHTML
17:26:20 <b_jonas> I think you can use either bignum integers or strings this way.
17:27:23 <b_jonas> Also that this is possible explains why they say "there seem to also be some (unknown) limits on memory usage and total runtime": since you can write programs this way, you can make an exponentially long string or bignum with just a linear number of beta-reductions.
17:27:54 <esolangs> [[User:CadenC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132688 * CadenC * (+82) Created page with "Hey, I'm Caden, and I enjoy programming things for fun. == Esolangs == [[EHTML]]"
17:29:02 <b_jonas> I wonder if they have an esoteric bignum library that does arithmetic on base 94 integers just so that the string-to-int and int-to-string conversions are efficient.
17:29:07 <int-e> you can square 3 a million times anbd get 3^(2^1000000) which will blow up any contemporary hardware :P
17:29:10 <b_jonas> You could probably modify a decimal bigint library to do that.
17:29:55 <b_jonas> But it would be much simpler to just use an ordinary binary bigint library and use its (less efficient) radix conversion routines.
17:30:42 <b_jonas> They published the source code of their server very soon when the contest ended, which is nice, but I haven't looked at it yet.
17:31:35 <b_jonas> I should write something about this to https://esolangs.org/wiki/ICFP later but I'm lazy right now.
17:33:57 <int-e> > ord '/' * 94 + ord '6' - 33*95
17:39:13 <int-e> `` tr '!-~' 'a-zA-Z0-9!-/:-@[-`|~ \n' <<<'B%,,/}Q/2,$_'
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19:17:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132689&oldid=132649 * TheCanon2 * (+276) New addition.
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19:21:48 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132690 * TheCanon2 * (+2889) This is an article for my new programming language Sakana.
19:26:04 <cpressey> "Sufficiently-abstract-notion-of-rewriting": instead of concrete rewrite rules ((Term, Term)) we have "rewriter functions" (Term -> Maybe Term), and of course a function that, given a concrete rewrite rule, returns a rewriter function.
19:26:52 <cpressey> This opens up having rewriter functions that are more powerful than what you can define with a concrete rewrite rule.
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19:29:02 <cpressey> "Sufficiently-abstract-notion-of-term" turns out to be less useful I think, but instead of concretely defined Terms, you have Term be a typeclass, and expose an interface for doing the things you need to do with terms, in term rewriting.
19:31:05 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132691&oldid=131923 * Ractangle * (-83) /* > errors in SPIKE */
19:31:54 <int-e> . o O ( https://github.com/haskell-rewriting/term-rewriting/blob/master/src/Data/Rewriting/Rules/Rewrite.hs#L41 )
19:33:51 <int-e> cpressey: rewriting people study "abstract rewriting systems" which are simply relations
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19:37:02 <cpressey> int-e: yes, but ARS'es are far more abstract than I want or need here
19:39:44 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132692&oldid=132685 * CadenC * (+27) Gave myself credit
19:46:06 <cpressey> My present need for a "rewriter function" is for a rewrite rule that implements beta-reduction, with the capture-avoiding substitution and all that. I gather than even this is fairly old-hat.
19:50:09 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132693&oldid=132690 * TheCanon2 * (+448) Added more information about how certain functions work, and described the Deadfish interpreter.
19:52:05 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132694&oldid=132693 * TheCanon2 * (+1) Fixed a formatting issue.
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20:19:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Copyright makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132696&oldid=110099 * Tommyaweosme * (+270)
20:19:36 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132697&oldid=132611 * Tommyaweosme * (+103)
20:27:11 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132698&oldid=132692 * CadenC * (+1737) Added FizzBuzz example
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20:35:05 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132700&oldid=132684 * Ractangle * (+62)
20:36:06 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132701&oldid=132700 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Hello, world! */
20:49:13 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132702&oldid=132697 * Tommyaweosme * (+43)
20:50:29 <esolangs> [[Tol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132703&oldid=131438 * Tommyaweosme * (+29)
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21:02:01 <esolangs> [[MinusGreater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132705&oldid=132704 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+279)
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21:07:01 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132710&oldid=132709 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1)
21:07:11 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132711&oldid=132710 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0)
21:07:18 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132712&oldid=132711 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1)
21:12:23 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132713 * TheCanon2 * (+193) Creating my user page.
21:17:14 <esolangs> [[Txet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132714&oldid=132631 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+85)
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21:49:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132715&oldid=132659 * TheCanon2 * (+13) /* S */ Added Sakana to the list.
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22:29:35 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132716&oldid=132694 * TheCanon2 * (+139) Added a few more reference programs.
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22:32:43 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132717&oldid=132716 * TheCanon2 * (+3) /* Kon'nichiwa sekai */ (Hopefully) fixed a punctuation error.
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22:46:30 <esolangs> [[Brainword]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132718 * Timothytomato * (+2113) created a stupid esolang
22:49:08 <esolangs> [[Brainword]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132719&oldid=132718 * Timothytomato * (+147) added stuff
22:49:24 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132720&oldid=132698 * CadenC * (+91) Described type-of
22:51:58 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132721&oldid=132170 * Timothytomato * (+16) added brainword (made by me)
23:04:58 <esolangs> [[Brainword]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132722&oldid=132719 * Timothytomato * (+136) added ZE BOX
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23:25:42 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132723&oldid=132717 * TheCanon2 * (+461) Added two more example programs
23:26:25 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132724&oldid=132723 * TheCanon2 * (+3) /* Print all* natural numbers */ Fixed a capitalisation error.
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23:42:45 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132725&oldid=131930 * TheCanon2 * (+70)
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00:51:34 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132726&oldid=132721 * Tommyaweosme * (+21)
00:56:51 <Sgeo> I know about one's complement and two's complement. But is there a term for every word of memory having a special dedicated sign bit?
00:57:26 <Sgeo> On a related note, General Mills, the cereal company, designed a computer. NASA used a computer designed by General Mills, the cereal company. https://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalMills/GeneralMillsComputerBrochure_1961.pdf
01:00:27 <Sgeo> The CPU's instruction set is intended to be easily modified
01:03:41 <Sgeo> https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-g.html#GENERAL-MILLS-AD/ECS
01:05:16 <b_jonas> Sgeo: yes, sign-magnitude. Some older computers use that.
01:09:35 <b_jonas> These were old computers where the RAM and CPU ran at slow speeds and the CPU was very simple so it could execute even simple instructions very slowly, but had dedicated hardware for multiplication and possibly division, because then you need fewer instructions to do double or triple width multiplication, and they were used for numerical computations where that came up often. The drawback is that you're
01:09:41 <b_jonas> wasting one bit in every word except the highest one in a double or triple width number.
01:10:14 <b_jonas> But it's also possible that it didn't make sense even back then but the designers didn't realize that. I don't know.
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02:02:11 <esolangs> [[ReadArticle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132727&oldid=132669 * None1 * (+2) /* Execution */
02:07:09 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132728&oldid=132724 * TheCanon2 * (+139) Re-formatted the page
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03:37:37 <esolangs> [[Brainword]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132730&oldid=132722 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) Infobox, categories
03:53:26 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132731&oldid=132720 * CadenC * (+796) String testing functions and string case conversions
03:55:27 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132732&oldid=132092 * EvyLah * (+215)
03:56:29 <esolangs> [[Txet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132733&oldid=132714 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) Distinguish confusion, add categories
03:57:45 <esolangs> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132734&oldid=131212 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Distinguish confusion
04:02:45 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132735&oldid=132676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+95) Categories
04:06:02 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132736&oldid=131654 * PkmnQ * (+30) /* Deadfish */ fix this link
04:11:59 <esolangs> [[What!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132737&oldid=58956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Categories
04:13:25 <zzo38> Is there information about how the instruction cards are working?
04:18:31 <esolangs> [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132738&oldid=75469 * Ais523 * (-3) /* Specification */ fix reversed sentence
04:38:58 <Sgeo> zzo38, the ed-thelen.org link is the most detailed thing I found. So, other than "diode logic", not much.
04:39:10 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to try emailing General Mills. Or NASA.
04:39:25 <Sgeo> (NASA was a customer according to the brochure)
04:40:10 <Sgeo> It seems like, the way computers have expansion boards, this CPU uses expansion boards for individual instructions
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04:49:40 <esolangs> [[Kalgarn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132739 * PrySigneToFry * (+1430) Created page with "It is also made to simplify the programming language. == Variables == There are 28 normal variables. They are . All of them are infinity, signed, integer and initialized to 0. == Commands == === Assignment and initialization === <pre> </pre> === Constant
04:51:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132740&oldid=132715 * PrySigneToFry * (+14)
04:53:14 <zzo38> Yes, I had read that much. But I don't know all of the details.
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04:59:04 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132741&oldid=132728 * TheCanon2 * (+27) Added Sakana to the Unimplemented category.
05:05:44 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132742&oldid=132713 * TheCanon2 * (+67) Adding information about my esolangs
05:06:24 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132743&oldid=132742 * TheCanon2 * (+4) fixed formatting
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05:13:19 <Sgeo> I wonder how an emulator would work. Probably not every possible instruction card implemented, but a set... but it would need to be possible to tell the emulator which card is which instruction
05:13:46 <Sgeo> I don't know if there was a "default" set or if each institution that used one needed to write their own software or what
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06:12:44 <zzo38> Possibly when compiling the emulator, you can add your own instruction cards into the emulator; at run time you will tell it which of those instruction cards you want to use.
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07:13:00 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132744&oldid=129251 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Loops */
07:29:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132745&oldid=126851 * Ractangle * (+28)
07:30:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132746&oldid=132745 * Ractangle * (+15)
07:31:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132747&oldid=132746 * Ractangle * (+30)
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07:35:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132748&oldid=131179 * Ractangle * (+193) /* It whould be cool if trutle1 made an another esolang */ new section
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07:44:54 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132749&oldid=132632 * Unname4798 * (+63)
07:45:00 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132750&oldid=132749 * Unname4798 * (+1)
07:45:17 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132751&oldid=132750 * Unname4798 * (+0)
07:45:32 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132752&oldid=132751 * Unname4798 * (+0)
07:47:41 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132753 * Unname4798 * (+229) Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{WIP}} Brainnumber is an [[esolang]] like [[Brainword]], but there are no words, only numbers. ==Commands== 0 - increment the selected accumulator 1 - decrement the selected accumulator 2 - switch the accumulator"
07:48:32 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132754&oldid=132753 * Unname4798 * (+74)
07:49:50 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132755&oldid=132754 * Unname4798 * (+92)
07:50:13 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132756&oldid=132755 * Unname4798 * (+21)
07:50:33 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132757&oldid=132756 * Unname4798 * (+21)
07:50:50 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132758&oldid=132757 * Unname4798 * (+7)
07:53:15 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132759&oldid=132758 * Unname4798 * (+67)
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07:53:38 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132760&oldid=132759 * Unname4798 * (+16) categories
07:54:18 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132761&oldid=132760 * Unname4798 * (+57)
07:54:30 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132762&oldid=132761 * Unname4798 * (-1)
07:55:05 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132763&oldid=132762 * Unname4798 * (+37)
07:56:24 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132764&oldid=132763 * Unname4798 * (+71)
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08:09:48 <esolangs> [[Q47]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132765&oldid=132699 * Europe2048 * (+635)
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08:43:29 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132766&oldid=132764 * Unname4798 * (+24)
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10:57:21 <cpressey> The "rewriter functions" are useful for me not only because they are an abstract representation of rewrite rules (whereas making the entire rewrite system abstract is a bit too much), but also because they can be an abstract representation of abstract data types. (OK, the rewrite rules are *too*, because a rewrite theory implies an equational theory, and that's another way of looking at an
10:57:23 <cpressey> algebra, which is more or less the same thing as an ADT. But.. the rewriter is more abstract.)
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10:59:50 <cpressey> One twist is that rewrite rules are purely syntactic. In one sense this is appealing. In another sense this is unappealing. Do abstract rewriter functions hold out some potential to operate non-syntactically? That's one thing I'd like to try to understand.
11:02:45 <riv> i imagine rewriting is turing complete
11:02:49 <riv> in many ways
11:02:55 <riv> we can consider string rewrite systems
11:03:02 <riv> operating on adjacent bytes
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11:03:07 <riv> or operating on regular patterns
11:03:14 <riv> and we can consider tree structured rewriting
11:03:16 <riv> term systems
11:03:26 <riv> evaluators and arithmetic are natural in that context
11:03:47 <riv> keeping things very syntactic and first order
11:03:56 <riv> but then you have lambda, GLORIOUS lambda...
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12:01:25 <cpressey> Yeah I used to be really interested in term rewriting, a long time ago, and then kind of lost interest in it. And then the paths led back to it kind of unexpectedly. A big thing was just understanding that every rewriting system implies an equational theory. Which seems obvious in hindsight. If you say that 2+2 rewrites to 4, you are also saying 2+2=4. With all that implies.
12:03:23 <int-e> . o O ( you've been converted )
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12:09:42 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132771&oldid=124662 * PrySigneToFry * (-16)
12:13:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132772&oldid=113080 * PrySigneToFry * (+391) /* I have a C++ Interpreter, which can only interprets 1 line of program. */ new section
12:14:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132773&oldid=132772 * PrySigneToFry * (+255)
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12:34:32 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132774 * PrySigneToFry * (+11983) Created page with " is an Esolang made by PSTF. It has only 1 command(maybe the longest) which prints all lyrics to . Shown as below: <pre> ..."
12:35:04 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132775&oldid=132729 * PrySigneToFry * (+184)
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12:54:29 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132776 * PrySigneToFry * (+1914) Created page with "Even true ultra fictional imaginary reality f*cking vunda xonna yotte exa peta giga tera mega hyper super terminusly f*cking absolutely SCARE!!!!!! Remember that is MY version. Here is version MHPP(Mihai Popa's version): [[Translated ORK/Mihai Popa]
12:56:08 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Popa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132777&oldid=129204 * PrySigneToFry * (+275)
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13:04:06 <esolangs> [[Brainletter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132778 * Tommyaweosme * (+560) Created page with "Brainletter is [[brainword]] with characters instead of commands. == Commands == + increments selected accumulator - decrement selected accumulator | switches accumulator ^ repeats the commands after it selected accumulator times . outputs ascii if it is va
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13:10:14 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132779&oldid=132774 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
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13:51:37 <esolangs> [[Template:PSTF's Version]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132780 * PrySigneToFry * (+87) Created page with "'''PrySigneToFry{{{1}}}{{{2}}}'''"
13:52:20 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132781&oldid=129341 * PrySigneToFry * (+49)
13:53:13 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132782&oldid=132781 * PrySigneToFry * (+75)
13:59:10 <esolangs> [[Oh, fuck!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132783&oldid=125660 * PrySigneToFry * (+4)
14:11:20 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132784 * TheCanon2 * (+784) Created a (somewhat incomplete) article for my esolang.
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14:49:31 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132785&oldid=132300 * PrySigneToFry * (+976)
14:50:45 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132786&oldid=132785 * PrySigneToFry * (+22)
14:52:29 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132787&oldid=132786 * PrySigneToFry * (-737)
15:00:59 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132788&oldid=132784 * TheCanon2 * (+800) Added a Python implementation.
15:03:27 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132789&oldid=132788 * TheCanon2 * (+76) Added categories.
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15:27:38 <esolangs> [[Brainnumber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132790&oldid=132770 * Unname4798 * (-131)
15:29:08 <esolangs> [[Brainletter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132791&oldid=132778 * Unname4798 * (-143)
15:33:00 <esolangs> [[Brainletter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132792&oldid=132791 * Unname4798 * (-26)
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16:54:19 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132793&oldid=132789 * TheCanon2 * (+107) Made modifications to the Python script
16:59:48 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132794&oldid=132793 * TheCanon2 * (+3) Added a space
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17:32:46 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132795&oldid=132794 * TheCanon2 * (+403) Added example programs.
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17:44:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132796&oldid=132747 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) Convert to unsigned
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17:46:04 <cpressey> So when a rewriter function represents an ADT, it rewrites a term like `top(push(x,s))` to `x`, or similar. To go "beyond the syntactic", it needs to rewrite `top(*)` to, uh, the top of the stack object `*` which isn't representable as a term. This sounds plausible?
18:09:06 <cpressey> Pity the poor rewriting rules from other ADTs that can't process *. But that's the point of opacity, they're not supposed to be able to process it.
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18:16:41 <cpressey> Hm, in that light, concrete rewriting rules aren't that great for ADTs, because they don't actually hide the representation. They can specify an equational theory, but it's not opaque.
18:17:10 <cpressey> Right, when they use algebras to define ADTs, they slap a signature on them, don't they.
18:17:49 <cpressey> But could you still confuse two ADTs if they used terms with the same function name internally?
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18:49:57 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1304.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
18:50:41 <HackEso> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
18:53:20 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
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19:41:59 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132797&oldid=132743 * TheCanon2 * (+94) Added more information about my esolangs.
19:43:34 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132798&oldid=132795 * TheCanon2 * (+6) Bolded the title.
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20:36:25 <esolangs> [[Shinda Sakana]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132799 * TheCanon2 * (+2744) This is an article documenting the older version of my esolang.
20:37:17 <esolangs> [[Shinda Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132800&oldid=132799 * TheCanon2 * (+26) Fixed the categories
20:38:52 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132801&oldid=132741 * TheCanon2 * (+62) Mentioned Shinda Sakana.
20:39:24 <esolangs> [[Shinda Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132802&oldid=132800 * TheCanon2 * (+4) Forgot to properly link my username.
20:46:26 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132803&oldid=132691 * Ractangle * (+148) /* Commands */
20:46:53 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132804&oldid=132803 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Commands */
20:47:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132805&oldid=132740 * TheCanon2 * (+42) /* S */ Added more of my esolangs
20:54:58 <esolangs> [[Shinda Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132806&oldid=132802 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) Categories
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21:34:15 <cpressey> Silly me, actually this has hardly anything to do with term rewriting systems at all. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Ha.
21:35:41 <cpressey> No one ever goes back to the same drawing board twice.
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22:43:53 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132807&oldid=132797 * TheCanon2 * (+21) added esolang
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23:46:37 <esolangs> [[Nulla]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132808 * TheCanon2 * (+1672) Created the page Nulla.
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23:55:38 <esolangs> [[Shinda Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132809&oldid=132806 * TheCanon2 * (+0) Capitalisation.
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00:20:24 <Soni> not entirely an esolang but... there is such thing as a jsonfs. this kinda begs the question of, can you make a bootable json
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00:29:53 <esolangs> [[Brainletter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132810&oldid=132792 * Tommyaweosme * (+66) keep all programs
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00:36:25 <esolangs> [[Brainword/constants]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132811 * Tommyaweosme * (+555) Created page with "1: heck 2: heck heck 3: heck heck heck 4: heck heck hell heck 5: heck heck hell heck heck 6: heck heck heck hell heck 7: heck heck heck hell heck heck 8: heck heck hell heck hell heck 9: heck heck hell heck hell heck heck 10: heck heck hell hec
00:47:05 <esolangs> [[Nulla]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132812&oldid=132808 * TheCanon2 * (+161) Added another program
00:54:46 <esolangs> [[AroundEnglish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132813 * Tommyaweosme * (+2466) Created page with "AroundEnglish is an attempt to make a programming language as close to English as possible. == Structure == Same as english. This makes interpreters hard to make (that arent human) == Commands == i (program) say(ing) "" (print) and (string concatenation)
00:57:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132814&oldid=132702 * Tommyaweosme * (+34)
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01:00:32 <esolangs> [[Rchdcgmfxrnhejwk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132815 * Tommyaweosme * (+533) Created page with "Rchdcgmfxrnhejwk is a speedrunned language by [[User:Tommyaweosme]] == Commands == pewjfg "" - prints string bottles 99 - 99 bottles of beer on hte wall kiwi - [[kiwiscript]] [ and ] - brackest from brainfuck plus - + minus - - left - < rihgt - > i
01:02:16 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132816&oldid=132814 * Tommyaweosme * (+221)
01:06:13 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132817 * Tommyaweosme * (+284) Created page with "We all know three things: 1. befunge is turing complete 2. brainfuck is 1d 3. befunge is 2d befunge=F brainfuck=B F=2D turing-complete=T F=T F=2D=T 2D=T B=1D 1D2D 1DT BT Join me as we prove things that are wrong right, and dest
01:06:26 <esolangs> [[Nulla]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132818&oldid=132812 * TheCanon2 * (+33) Fixed an error in the Flip Input program
01:09:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132819&oldid=132817 * Tommyaweosme * (+160) tommyaweosme makes stupid comments on pages
01:11:00 <esolangs> [[Category:2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132820&oldid=68541 * Tommyaweosme * (+44) tommyaweosme makes stupid comments on pages
01:12:18 <esolangs> [[420]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132821&oldid=42997 * Tommyaweosme * (+21) tommyaweosme makes stupid comments on pages
01:13:13 <esolangs> [[Jail system makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132822&oldid=110098 * Tommyaweosme * (+55) tommyaweosme makes stupid comments on pages
01:18:37 <esolangs> [[THCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132823&oldid=66917 * Tommyaweosme * (+98)
01:22:50 <esolangs> [[THCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132824&oldid=132823 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) fixing
01:23:53 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132825&oldid=132798 * TheCanon2 * (+0) Fixing capitalisation.
01:24:11 <esolangs> [[TASCII]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132826 * Tommyaweosme * (+154) Created page with "TASCII is ASCII in a trybble instead of a byte. The first 15 except newline are gone. == Table == ASCIIvalue-14=TASCIIvalue There, now you can convert."
01:25:53 <esolangs> [[Jail system makes no sense]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132827&oldid=132822 * None1 * (-55) No, it isn't
01:27:50 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132828&oldid=132801 * TheCanon2 * (-4) Fixed capitalisation.
01:27:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132829 * None1 * (+144) Created page with "This proof is ridiculously wrong and should get deleted immediately. --~~~~"
01:31:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132830&oldid=132662 * None1 * (+161) /* Timezone */
01:32:19 <esolangs> [[2 Trits, 1 Trybble]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132831 * Tommyaweosme * (+431) Created page with "2 Trits, 1 Trybble is like [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] for trinary. == Commands == 00 NOP do nothing 01 ACT does the same in 2 bits 1 byte 02 SWI changes 0 to 1, 1 to 2, 2 to 0 10 JMP jumps to position specified 11 PRN prints 12 ACT doese the same in 2 bits
01:34:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132832&oldid=132773 * None1 * (+119) /* Creator */
01:35:08 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132833&oldid=132787 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
01:35:42 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132834&oldid=132771 * None1 * (+16) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/132771|132771]] by [[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|PrySigneToFry]] ([[User talk:PrySigneToFry|talk]])
01:47:42 <esolangs> [[Translated Julia/PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132835&oldid=128103 * PrySigneToFry * (-38)
01:49:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:^English/MORE PROGRAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132836&oldid=128654 * PrySigneToFry * (+285)
01:54:14 <esolangs> [[^English/MORE PROGRAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132837&oldid=128678 * PrySigneToFry * (+738)
01:57:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132838 * PrySigneToFry * (+809) Created page with "<nowiki> ? $3DHt+H$(L+tC?ftfA?HIuI? HIE?MtHIIE?H$E3EtCsDAADA D;??` C??A& ??A?fAIL;?I? ..."
02:04:07 <esolangs> [[3 bits, unshackled]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132839 * Tommyaweosme * (+1371) Created page with "3 bits, unshackled is a language kinda like the previous ones before it. == Commands == 000 - don 001 - act (done on first 2 bits only) 010 - jmp 011 - prt (print) 100 - inc (increment) 101 - dec (decrement) 110 - flp (flip) 111 - end (and print)
02:04:50 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132840&oldid=132816 * Tommyaweosme * (+68)
02:05:24 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132841&oldid=132840 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* esolangs i made */
02:05:36 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132842&oldid=132841 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) /* esolangs i made */ 27
02:07:52 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132843 * None1 * (+1265) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF]] is crazy, but it is not crazy enough, so let's do more translations! 1. Again we take the semi-product. <pre> One of them is singing. Life is sick from time to time. It was there. <<<om_om Li < 50 tails, < 50 tails, It's too muc
02:08:31 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132844&oldid=132843 * None1 * (+179)
02:29:38 <esolangs> [[Semiconkfalos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132845&oldid=132825 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+668) Add converter to brainfuck, add categories
02:30:50 <esolangs> [[Translated NeverGonna]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132846 * None1 * (+1871) Created page with "'''Translated ORK''' is an esolang made by [[User:None1]]. It is [[NeverGonna]] but horribly translated by Baidu & Microsoft. (however you can add more or choose a another pair of translators for an even more horrible translation!) Note that unlike most lang
02:32:02 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132847&oldid=132775 * None1 * (+76) /* Horribly translated variants */
02:33:25 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132848&oldid=132179 * None1 * (+90) /* My Esolangs */ Add an esolang
02:34:35 <esolangs> [[3 bits, unshackled]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132849&oldid=132839 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) Categories
02:36:11 <esolangs> [[2 Trits, 1 Trybble]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132850&oldid=132831 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) Categories
02:39:58 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132851&oldid=132844 * None1 * (-2)
02:40:17 <esolangs> [[NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132852&oldid=121355 * None1 * (+40) /* Interpreter */
02:40:50 <esolangs> [[Translated NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132853&oldid=132846 * None1 * (-6)
02:42:37 <esolangs> [[TASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132854&oldid=132826 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) Stub, link, category
02:44:35 <esolangs> [[Rchdcgmfxrnhejwk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132855&oldid=132815 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Categories
02:44:56 <esolangs> [[Rchdcgmfxrnhejwk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132856&oldid=132855 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Category
02:47:39 <esolangs> [[Translated Wenyan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132857 * None1 * (+1288) Created page with "There have been tons of translations of English based languages, this time let's translate one that isn't. 1. Take this program (as an example): <pre> ..."
02:48:08 <esolangs> [[Translated Wenyan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132858&oldid=132857 * None1 * (+473)
02:48:14 <esolangs> [[Translated NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132859&oldid=132853 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) Fix name, convert to list
02:49:33 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132860&oldid=132847 * None1 * (+64) /* Horribly translated variants */
02:50:05 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132861&oldid=132848 * None1 * (+50) /* My Esolangs */
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02:51:16 <esolangs> [[Dreadow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132862&oldid=130357 * BoundedBeans * (+93) Clarified branch table else cases (cornflower blue lupine)
02:52:04 <esolangs> [[Dreadow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132863&oldid=132862 * BoundedBeans * (+72) Added what happens when no branch table entries match
02:54:42 <esolangs> [[Slashist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132864&oldid=45806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Categories
02:56:53 <esolangs> [[lang without Quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132865 * PrySigneToFry * (+1973) Created page with "lang without Quine is an Esolang designed by PSTF. If your source code is <code></code>, then output these: <pre> 1956 --..."
02:57:46 <esolangs> [[Dreadow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132866&oldid=132863 * BoundedBeans * (+325) Clarified aspects of Wiki Syntax
02:58:15 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132867&oldid=132508 * PrySigneToFry * (+41)
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03:27:36 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132868&oldid=125230 * None1 * (+297) /* Truth Machine */ Added a grammatically correct form
03:36:29 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132869&oldid=132868 * None1 * (+43) /* Truth Machine */
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03:46:51 <esolangs> [[User:Timothytomato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132870&oldid=125172 * Timothytomato * (+123) un hi
03:48:21 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem/Hash dictionary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132871 * None1 * (+34057) Created page with "This page shows meaningful words of length 2-5 classified by [[HashedPoem]] hash to help HashedPoem programmers write HashedPoem programs. They are in JSON form. ==2 letters== <pre class="rectwrap">{"0": ["ad", "ar", "bi", "bp", "cg", "cu", "de", "dz",
03:49:00 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132872&oldid=132869 * None1 * (+45) /* Computational class */
03:50:41 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132873&oldid=132674 * Timothytomato * (+68)
03:53:16 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132874&oldid=132873 * Timothytomato * (+44) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
03:55:06 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132875 * PrySigneToFry * (+4025) Created page with "Translated ZhongWen is designed by PSTF. It is the but Translated by Baidu and Microsoft. 1. Take this program as an example: <pre> SRC SRC > < ^ v ? _ ..."
03:56:38 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132876&oldid=132860 * PrySigneToFry * (+73)
04:49:21 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132877&oldid=132731 * CadenC * (+105) /* String */ Added distinction between "is-number" and "is-numeric".
04:50:01 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132878&oldid=132877 * CadenC * (-67) /* If statements */ Removed "if-else".
04:52:33 <esolangs> [[GRUBBY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132879 * BoundedBeans * (+6944) Created page with "GRUBBY is a name given to an underutilized graphical "programming language" by [[User:BoundedBeans]]. ==Description== To run a GRUBBY program, start up some sort of x86 virtual machine booting off of some sort of medium or disk containing only the [https://www.gnu.
04:52:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132880&oldid=132805 * BoundedBeans * (+13)
04:53:44 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132881&oldid=131157 * BoundedBeans * (+114)
05:00:24 <esolangs> [[GRUBBY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132882&oldid=132879 * BoundedBeans * (-18) timeout is a consistent environment variable, it probably can go anywhere as long as it gets executed
05:29:20 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132883&oldid=132874 * OllyTheFoldy * (+99) /* Game */
05:30:29 <esolangs> [[GRUBBY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132884&oldid=132882 * BoundedBeans * (+930) Added examples
05:42:35 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132885 * Zzo38 * (+5461) (INCOMPLETE)
06:31:05 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132886&oldid=132885 * Zzo38 * (+1865)
06:32:27 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132887&oldid=132886 * Zzo38 * (+7)
06:41:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LuminanceMartlet * New user account
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06:59:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132888&oldid=132689 * LuminanceMartlet * (+121) shittyass
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06:59:33 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132889 * LuminanceMartlet * (+6870) about my programming shit called HQ9 Tilde
07:00:24 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132890&oldid=118106 * LuminanceMartlet * (+74)
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07:10:17 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132891&oldid=132594 * OllyTheFoldy * (+4543)
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08:39:03 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132892&oldid=132889 * None1 * (+7) It's wikitext not markdown
08:39:30 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132893&oldid=132892 * None1 * (+4) /* Default Jokes */
08:41:10 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132894&oldid=132893 * None1 * (+77) /* Default Jokes */
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09:42:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132895&oldid=132830 * PrySigneToFry * (+510) /* Some suggestions */ new section
09:44:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132896&oldid=132895 * PrySigneToFry * (+92)
09:50:19 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132897&oldid=132833 * PrySigneToFry * (+829)
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10:29:53 <esolangs> [[Shape-Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132898&oldid=132024 * Ractangle * (-5)
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10:41:47 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132899&oldid=132776 * PrySigneToFry * (-61)
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10:50:08 <esolangs> [[Bad command or file name/No Quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132900 * PrySigneToFry * (+617) Created page with "This is the No_Quine variant of [[Bad command or file name]]. It is designed by PSTF. If the source code is <code>Bad command or file name</code>, then output <code>Hello, world!</code>, otherwise output <code>Bad command or file name</co
10:51:07 <esolangs> [[Bad command or file name]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132901&oldid=118786 * PrySigneToFry * (+40)
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10:53:34 <esolangs> [[ErrorLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132902&oldid=118099 * PrySigneToFry * (+13)
10:55:12 <esolangs> [[Error]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132903&oldid=115855 * PrySigneToFry * (+205)
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11:42:09 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132904&oldid=132320 * None1 * (+132) /* External resources */
11:46:18 <breck> i'm thinking of making a fork of esolang from mediawiki to plain text files backed by git. is this a bad idea or a terrible idea? which esolang should i write my migration script in?
11:47:25 <fizzie> Answer to the first question may depend on the answer to the second.
11:50:41 <breck> im guessing mediawiki uses a database like mysql or postgres. so preferably id like an esolang with a sql library. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Structure-free_Query_Language looks promising
11:51:47 <breck> with SFQL i bet in less than a day i could have the esolang database floating around aimilessly
11:54:35 <fizzie> You can't access the database behind the wiki, for reasons such as that it has everyone's user information in it.
11:55:00 <fizzie> There's an XML dump of all articles in MediaWiki's standard XML export format, however; details at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_dumps
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12:00:12 <breck> mahalo fizzie. got it, that is interesting
12:01:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Wiki dumps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132905&oldid=58296 * Fizzie * (+93) Update the numbers, the wiki is a lot bigger these days.
12:04:01 <fizzie> Well, "wiki is a lot bigger" may not be entirely true, the dump contains all the page revisions and I think even uploaded files, so it can literally only grow monotonically (barring article deletions and such).
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12:11:01 <wib_jonas> I don't think the dump contains uploaded files, but I'm not sure
12:12:18 <fizzie> I didn't *expect* them to do that either, but someone had written "all the content (including page history and files)" on the wiki page about the dump.
12:12:34 <fizzie> Possibly irrelevant for a plain-text copy in any case.
12:16:40 <fizzie> There's an odd "every two hours or so" CPU usage spike on the wiki machine where it goes from its usual 20% to about 80% or so, wonder what that is about. It's only been happening for the last four days or so.
12:17:45 <fizzie> For context, went to look at the graphs to see how long preparing the dump takes these days. (Seems to be about 15 minutes.)
12:18:03 <breck> progress! https://x.com/breckyunits/status/1811374363914170714
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12:39:38 <breck> too much info was lost in my first LLM authored implementation, so ive fallen back to a human authored one. i found a mediawiki to markdown script, but it confronted me with a tough choice: php or docker. i chose php and booted up a digital ocean droplet. the script has failed so far hitting memory limits. im now trying on a 32GB droplet. god help
12:42:06 <breck> 32GB wasnt enough. i dont know what in the world that script is doing, but ive got a new idea. gonna give chatgpt that old php script and tell it to bring all the good stuff into my nodejs script, and leave out the bad
12:56:52 <breck> okay. im going to go refresh the coffee. maybe a walk will turn my brain back on. im very close. i should have it working in about 30 more minutes. though i totally cheated in every way possible
13:07:11 <wib_jonas> breck: if you don't want the whole dump, there are ways to download just some of the content from the esowiki
13:07:40 <wib_jonas> I can point to the details if you know how much you want to download
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13:23:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132906&oldid=132888 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+100) I forgot to remove the nowiki tags
13:48:05 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132907 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+856) Created page with "== Introduction == '''RizzLang''' is an esolang, based off Gen Alpha Slang. Unlike other esolangs that have the same central idea, like [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gen_Alpha/ Gen Alpha] and [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gen_Alpha_Brainrot/ Gen Alpha Brainrot],
13:50:11 <fizzie> Looks like the every-two-hours CPU spike also corresponds to an every-two-hours traffic and latency spikes, which doesn't really tell what it is but at least suggests it has an external source. https://zem.fi/tmp/spiky.png
13:50:40 <fizzie> Sadly I don't really have good tooling for looking at the request logs.
14:03:39 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132908&oldid=132907 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+529)
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14:34:28 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132909&oldid=132876 * TheCanon2 * (+12) Added Nulla to the list.
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14:51:44 <breck> Thanks @wib_jonas. I've almost got it working now though with the whole dump
15:21:44 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132910&oldid=132878 * CadenC * (-10) /* FizzBuzz */
15:28:50 <esolangs> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132911&oldid=91628 * TheCanon2 * (+309) Added a Python interpreter
15:37:39 <korvo> breck: Fun times. Is this part of your PLDB project?
15:40:17 <breck> korvo, not part of pldb. i want to add esolangs as one of the first sites in the World Wide Scroll (https://wws.scroll.pub/). specifically, i have a flight back to hawaii in a few hours and I want to have it working by then so I can read through esolangs on my own machine offline
15:40:43 <breck> it's either that or watch an in flight movie
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16:05:34 <wib_jonas> breck: once you downloaded the dump, you can get the rest working during the flight off-line
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16:09:13 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132912&oldid=132908 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+289)
16:11:47 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132913&oldid=132912 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+117)
16:13:21 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132914&oldid=132913 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+238)
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16:22:43 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132915&oldid=132914 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+201)
16:26:33 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132916&oldid=132915 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+132)
16:26:50 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132917&oldid=132916 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+7)
16:27:42 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132918&oldid=132917 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+59)
16:34:50 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132919&oldid=132918 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+349)
16:39:58 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132920&oldid=132919 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+440)
16:43:07 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132921&oldid=132920 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+145)
16:43:44 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132922&oldid=132921 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+0)
16:44:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/guh]] to [[User:Ractangle/]]
16:44:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/]] to [[User:Ractangle/ -]]
16:48:55 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132927&oldid=132922 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+52)
16:49:44 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/ -]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132928&oldid=132925 * Ractangle * (-841) Replaced content with "''' - ''' is an esolang created by [[Ractangle]]"
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17:36:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132929&oldid=132829 * Tommyaweosme * (+145)
17:36:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132930&oldid=132929 * Tommyaweosme * (+123) signature
17:39:18 <esolangs> [[Jail system makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132931&oldid=132827 * Tommyaweosme * (+55) its a joke
17:45:28 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132932 * Tommyaweosme * (+396) Created page with "{{lowercase}} you can do anything in hjhjhj. it just takes one program... hjhjhj this simple program splits your universe into infinitely many copies... and picks a random one for you to go in. in each copy, the program does a different thing
17:46:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132933&oldid=132932 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) [v] This is a minor edit [v] Watch this page Please note that all contributions to Esolang are considered to be released under the CC0 public domain dedication (see Esolang:Copyrights for details). If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and
17:48:16 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132934&oldid=132842 * Tommyaweosme * (+25)
17:56:25 <korvo> Maybe we need Category:Joke proofs, to accompany Category:Joke languages and Category:Joke examples.
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18:14:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Breck * New user account
18:19:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132935&oldid=132906 * Breck * (+428) /* Introductions */
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18:23:22 <esolangs> [[Simoji]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132936 * Breck * (+257) Simoji Stub
18:24:12 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132937&oldid=132880 * Breck * (+13) Add simoji
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18:42:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semiconkfalos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132938 * TheCanon2 * (+57) Created page with "The programs were all corrupted by the wiki's formatting."
18:43:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semiconkfalos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132939&oldid=132938 * TheCanon2 * (+28)
18:46:21 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132940&oldid=132887 * Zzo38 * (+3866)
18:47:02 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132941&oldid=132891 * Gilbert189 * (+3401) /* An esolang as an engelang */ Words, words, words!
18:50:19 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132942&oldid=132940 * Zzo38 * (+5)
18:57:21 <esolangs> [[User:Breck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132943 * Breck * (+270) Created page with "Aloha! I'm Breck. My esolangs are: [[Simoji]] My langs are Scroll and Parsers. https://scroll.pub/ https://sdk.scroll.pub/langs/parsers/index.html My blog is here: https://breckyunits.com/ I'm also the creator (and still current maintainer) of PLDB https://pldb.io/
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19:06:29 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132944&oldid=132942 * Zzo38 * (+204)
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20:27:54 <esolangs> [[Nulla]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132945&oldid=132818 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+105) Categories
20:34:08 <esolangs> [[Simoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132946&oldid=132936 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Categories
20:39:35 <b_jonas> question. on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization where should I mention https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:ICFP_contest ?
20:42:01 <b_jonas> other question, https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~plclub/contest/ants.html doesn't give a name for the programming language used in that contest. what should I call that language for the purpose of a wiki page? Ant brain? Ant state machine? Ambiant? Dinner with Ambiants? Ambiant brain?
20:43:32 <b_jonas> "2.7 Neurology. The brain of each species of ant consists of a simple finite state machine." so at least "brain" isn't random
20:44:53 <int-e> . o O ( Ambiantlang )
20:46:19 <zzo38> My guess is "Miscellaneous" for ICFP contest, although I am not sure it fits with those either, since the "Miscellaneous" section seems to be stuff other than programming languages; perhaps another section will be needed instead, then.
20:46:19 <int-e> It's funny how the Ambi-ant only appears in the title.
20:49:20 <zzo38> About the ants, I think "Ambiants" might do since it appears in the title, or "ICFP 2004" is another idea
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21:28:16 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132947&oldid=132910 * CadenC * (+182) /* Function */ Changed print function
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22:05:07 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132948&oldid=132934 * Tommyaweosme * (+25)
22:06:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132949&oldid=131847 * Tommyaweosme * (-35)
22:06:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Tommyaweosme * moved [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] to [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives/june 22 to july 11]]: archive
22:08:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132952&oldid=132951 * Tommyaweosme * (+113) Removed redirect to [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives/june 22 to july 11]]
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22:49:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OmegaOmicron * New user account
22:52:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132953&oldid=132935 * OmegaOmicron * (+154)
22:58:50 <esolangs> [[Quid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132954 * OmegaOmicron * (+3286) Added base info about Quid
23:00:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:OmegaOmicron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132955 * OmegaOmicron * (+29) Created page with "Languages I have made: -Quid"
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00:01:37 <esolangs> [[Quid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132956&oldid=132954 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) Categories
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00:11:35 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132957&oldid=132894 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) Categories
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00:31:26 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132958&oldid=132944 * Zzo38 * (+4314)
00:39:14 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132959&oldid=132958 * Zzo38 * (-52)
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00:43:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132960&oldid=132523 * None1 * (+280) /* Delete pages */ new section
01:46:16 <esolangs> [[Translated Befunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132961 * None1 * (+916) Created page with "'''Translated Befunge''' is an esolang made by [[User:None1]]. It is [[Befunge]] but horribly translated by Baidu & Microsoft. (however you can add more or choose a another pair of translators for an even more horrible translation!) Note that Befunge programs ar
01:48:27 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132962&oldid=132909 * None1 * (+70) /* Horribly translated variants */
01:51:52 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132963&oldid=132861 * None1 * (+71) /* My Esolangs */
01:52:21 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132964&oldid=132963 * None1 * (+16) /* My Esolangs */
01:57:57 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132965&oldid=132947 * CadenC * (+93) /* Type */ Directly making types.
02:19:32 <esolangs> [[IndentationError: unexpected indent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=132966 * None1 * (+1479) Created page with "IndentationError: unexpected indent is an esolang created by [[User:None1]] and inspired by [[foo : The term 'foo' is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or operable program. Check the spelling of the name, or if a pa
02:20:25 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132967&oldid=132962 * None1 * (+62) /* Error simulators */
02:20:50 <esolangs> [[IndentationError: unexpected indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132968&oldid=132966 * None1 * (+53)
02:21:55 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132969&oldid=132964 * None1 * (+73) /* My Esolangs */
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02:53:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132970&oldid=132960 * Tommyaweosme * (+214) /* Delete pages */
02:53:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132971&oldid=132970 * Tommyaweosme * (+162) /* Delete pages */
02:57:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132972&oldid=132930 * Tommyaweosme * (+669)
03:13:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * CadenC * uploaded "[[File:EHTML-logo.png]]"
03:14:36 <esolangs> [[EHTML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132974&oldid=132965 * CadenC * (+253) Added infobox
03:14:37 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132975&oldid=132828 * TheCanon2 * (+100) I, the creator of Sakana, formally create the new function .
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04:00:51 <esolangs> [[Unmatched (]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132976&oldid=119820 * PrySigneToFry * (+69)
04:03:46 <esolangs> [[NameError]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132977&oldid=125531 * PrySigneToFry * (+153)
04:08:23 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132978&oldid=132779 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
04:10:32 <zzo38> About adding a "joke proofs" category, I agree that the "Brainfuck is not turing complete" should be changed from "proofs" to "joke proofs" category; it might also be moved to user namespace (in which case it might not need any category at all, but the "proofs" category is wrong for this article regardless of the namespace)
04:30:53 <salpynx> Agree with the proofs category being wrong. But the content is not really recognisable as a joke. Delete or userspace it. It's _below_ "not even wrong"
04:32:39 <salpynx> The copyright 'joke proof' that inspired, I can at least see what the joke is supposed to be, but axiom 3 is trivially wrong or unclear in meaning, which spoils the humour
04:34:12 <salpynx> 3 "If you have some book and there is a reliable way that you can reconstruct a copyrighted book from it, then that book is copyrighted too."
04:40:54 <salpynx> .. not sure what that means exactly, but "My First ABC" (if it goes all the way to Z) allows you to reconstruct all other (English) books... Which is basically the joke, comparing to ℕ
04:42:31 <salpynx> Maybe the copyright article is funny, but the wording of 3 is a weak point
04:46:45 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132979&oldid=132927 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (-78)
04:47:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132980&oldid=132972 * Unname4798 * (+58)
04:50:28 <salpynx> The recent non-language wiki-articles that translate source code badly through ai were bothering me. I want to argue they do not even define a language and totally miss landing a joke because they probably _could_ be made funny by describing it in terms of formal languages and algorithms, but don't.
04:50:49 <salpynx> In making the argument clearly I worry it'd complete the joke, then the argument against would be the one thing that justified them.
04:58:31 <salpynx> parody jokelang: Find a picture of a cat on the internet. Scribble all over it until it is not recognisable as a cat. wow it's a "programming language". Default is a cat program. If the original cat looked like it was waving, it's Hello World.
04:58:45 <salpynx> This is formal-language funny because the language includes all images of scribbled on cats, but excludes all scribbled on dogs.
04:58:59 <salpynx> It's algorithm funny because there's a spec for the behaviour of each 'word' in the language for common program forms.
04:59:21 <salpynx> (the silly named A+B problem is pic of 2 cats, which is basically cat, with unary output)
05:00:32 <salpynx> two cats just walked towards me as I typed that..
05:00:51 <salpynx> ... maybe this is not funny
05:16:57 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132981&oldid=132904 * None1 * (+64) /* External resources */
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06:01:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132982&oldid=129575 * None1 * (+113) /* (idea)Introducing SyntaxHighlight? */
06:24:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rico040 * New user account
06:32:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132983&oldid=132953 * Rico040 * (+200)
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09:21:12 <wib_jonas> fizzie: https://logs.esolangs.org/ says "We have recently migrated from freenode to the Libera.Chat network". Does that still count as recent?
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09:26:22 <int-e> depends on the time scale... if you measure time by messages to this channel... I imagine the ration before/after move is 10:1
09:26:32 <int-e> it couldn't hurt to change that to "in 2021" though :)
09:27:00 <int-e> The note is dated (as in, annotated with a date) though.
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09:32:52 <wib_jonas> ah, so it's not recently compared to now, but recently compared to the date of that blog entry
09:42:11 <fizzie> I think I had the same thought that the message is probably not really necessary any more.
09:46:13 <wib_jonas> fizzie: no, I think there should be some message indefinitely to explain why there's logs from freenode and libera
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09:56:02 <fizzie> Fair, but it probably doesn't need to be a dated note with a red banner, I can just add a second paragraph under `about`. When I get around to it some day.
10:02:12 <fizzie> Regarding https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#(idea)Introducing_SyntaxHighlight? (just noticed the new comment in it) I think I thought about SyntaxHighlight before (it comes with the MediaWiki distribution nowadays), but after browsing about a little bit, it seemed like it wouldn't be all that useful, since it wouldn't support (most of) the actual esolangs, and there's no
10:02:14 <fizzie> viable mechanism to enable user-defined languages (it's a separate binary).
10:02:16 <fizzie> Still, it would be easy to add, and there's certainly _some_ amount of "normal code" on the wiki that could benefit from it. And Pygments does support Brainfuck and Befunge (not sure how well). It would just put the unsupported languages at a disadvantage.
10:25:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MRX * New user account
10:36:25 <wib_jonas> I don't generally use syntax highlighting even for normally programming, but I wonder whether the people who do like syntax highlighting would think it's still useful for highlighting brainfuck or befunge
10:38:04 <wib_jonas> funnily for *Intercal*, where people often hide "do" or "do not" in longer words, syntax highlighting showing that might actually be useful
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11:45:23 <wib_jonas> in general, syntax highlighting (if done well) can be more useful for obfuscated programming or esoteric languages, because when the code is misleading, the highlighter can notice that and warn you. I just don't think it's very useful for brainfuck or befunge in particular.
11:46:35 <wib_jonas> although finding where a v or ^ arrow points to in befunge could be useful, in the same way as finding the matching parenthesis can be useful in more traditional programming
11:47:17 <wib_jonas> as in when control flow goes through a big blank space (or a big area with a jumble of digits, say) in the befunge program and it's hard to follow what lines up with what
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14:28:31 <esolangs> [[Random]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132984&oldid=113398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Categories
14:28:40 <esolangs> [[Random]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132985&oldid=132984 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* External resources */ fix
14:42:38 <esolangs> [[H]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132986&oldid=121133 * Rico040 * (+86) Implementations
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16:21:00 <cpressey> What I thought I learned was that the "WaveFunction Collapse" algorithm relies on there being at least some 0% probabilities for adjacency in the input. It's "wrong" for a road to lead right into a wall, so there are 0 of these adjacencies in the input, so you see 0 of these adjacencies in the output.
16:21:29 <cpressey> If there are "no wrong adjancencies" I wonder if it even works.
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16:51:22 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132987&oldid=131620 * TheCanon2 * (+241) Added the Sakana and Ixqus variants, but I have no idea if they are notable enough to be on this page.
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18:00:15 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132988&oldid=132941 * Gilbert189 * (+0) /* Example text code */
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19:30:42 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132989&oldid=132359 * Ractangle * (+20) new programing language learned
19:32:26 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132990&oldid=132989 * Ractangle * (-29) /* Esolangs */
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19:35:08 <esolangs> [[Shell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132991&oldid=131797 * Ractangle * (-31) /* Cat */
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19:59:17 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132992&oldid=131768 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Cat Program */
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20:30:06 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132993&oldid=125146 * Gggfr * (+47)
20:30:23 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132994&oldid=132993 * Gggfr * (+0) /* REG.TYPE = str TRUE */
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20:49:34 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132995&oldid=132994 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+106) Make sections for /// and Black, alphabetise
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20:55:27 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132996&oldid=132959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) Categories
21:02:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132997&oldid=132980 * Aadenboy * (+339)
21:04:03 <esolangs> [[Brainword/constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132998&oldid=132811 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) Lowercase, back, category
21:06:47 <esolangs> [[Eafish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132999&oldid=132499 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) Categories
21:07:34 <esolangs> [[Eafish/HTML Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133000&oldid=132500 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) Lowercase, back, formatting, category
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21:10:22 <esolangs> [[Rubik's Cube]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133001&oldid=132577 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+198) Categories
21:12:40 <esolangs> [[Hummingmusic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133002&oldid=130588 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128) Categories
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21:38:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133003&oldid=132997 * Tommyaweosme * (+320)
21:39:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133004&oldid=133003 * Tommyaweosme * (+6)
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22:25:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133005&oldid=133004 * Corbin * (+342) Drop hint from IRC.
22:40:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133006&oldid=133005 * Tommyaweosme * (+101)
22:45:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133007&oldid=133006 * Aadenboy * (-109) removing the "you can ... signatures" thing since I didn't realize that ~~~~ is replaced by the user's signature when saving
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22:51:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133008&oldid=133007 * Tommyaweosme * (+162) time to sign
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23:05:43 <esolangs> [[Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133009 * BestCoder * (+198) Created page with "this uses long words: hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia(n) #prints n supercalifragilisticexpialidocious(n) #evalulates n pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis(n) #simulates n in brainf"
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23:21:10 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133010&oldid=132735 * Joe * (+63)
23:23:58 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133011&oldid=133010 * Joe * (+42)
23:30:16 <esolangs> [[MinusGreater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133012&oldid=132708 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* number program: */
23:32:03 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133013&oldid=133011 * Joe * (+152)
23:40:24 <esolangs> [[Fractaler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133014 * BestCoder * (+322) Created page with "fractaler is a thing that uses fractals to code == instructions == X -> A, B... [condition] - X splits into A and B... only if condition X -< A - X has a value A - X - count number of X > X (A,B,C...) places X, with maybe the values being ABC... == fixed cat ==
23:44:46 <esolangs> [[Fractaler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133015&oldid=133014 * BestCoder * (+139)
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00:16:58 <Sgeo> If you were looking at assembly code for a machine you were unfamiliar with, what might "BRG" mean?
00:17:38 <Sgeo> In context it seems like it puts the value from memory into a register, but I don't see where the register is specified
00:18:32 <b_jonas> does it seem to have a branch target label as operand?
00:18:52 <Sgeo> It has a label as operand
00:19:17 <Sgeo> BRG SAVERP Restore A
00:19:23 <b_jonas> if it starts with B then it's always a branch, but I'm not sure about the greater part
00:19:32 <Sgeo> BRG SAVEAR and R Registers
00:19:52 <b_jonas> hmm, I wonder if RG stands for "registers"
00:20:22 <Sgeo> NJP is some sort of conditional procedure call, NZJ is a conditional jump
00:20:35 <Sgeo> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19680001402/downloads/19680001402.pdf page 55 of the PDF. Assembly for a General Mills computer.
00:20:41 <Sgeo> Because General Mills made computers for NASA.
00:21:58 <b_jonas> dunno, old instruction mnemonics are sometimes weird, like in one of those PDP-? machines the load instruction is called clear and accumulate
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00:30:21 <Sgeo> My confusion is mainly about the same op being called and doing different things
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00:38:57 <Sgeo> FWIW here's some details: 37-bit words, instructions are always 6 bits op code and 12 bits address
00:41:44 <fizzie> Vaguely think I've seen "bring" used as the opposite of "store" somewhere.
00:43:46 <fizzie> The "STA SAVEAP / STR SAVERP" ... "BRG SAVERP / BRG SAVEAR" pair with comments "Save A and R Registers" and "Restore A and R Registers" suggests that sort of thing, except if so then it's odd there isn't an A/R indication in the latter, the same way there is in the former.
00:55:21 <fizzie> Just ask Eugene? ;) https://www.linkedin.com/in/geneprocknow says he "co-developed a machine language for a General Mills AD/ECS-37A computer system" in the 70s.
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01:02:57 <Sgeo> fizzie, I emailed earlier today
01:03:05 <fizzie> Also, "BRG COUNT / ADD ONE / STA COUNT2 is used to "Increment Count" on PDF-page 58, so I do think it's some sort of a load instruction, though still odd that it doesn't seem to say where to put the loaded value.
01:04:58 <fizzie> Is it possible that STA/STR store not only the value but also the register identity at the label they target? Do you know how big those registers are?
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01:19:12 <Sgeo> "Each bit had a foot square card and 37 cards for each register (accumulator, etc.)" -- from Eugene Procknow's reply to me
01:27:36 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133016&oldid=133013 * Joe * (+153)
01:28:43 <Sgeo> Could BRG move A->R and mem->A?
01:29:21 <zzo38> It is what I thought at first, too.
01:29:29 <zzo38> But, it says SAVEAP for the save but SAVEAR is used for restoring, so it is different but the "SAVERP" is the same in both.
01:30:15 <Sgeo> I didn't notice that
01:37:02 <Sgeo> Oh, the brochure would be helpful, derp
01:37:06 <Sgeo> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/generalMills/GeneralMillsComputerBrochure_1961.pdf
01:37:38 <Sgeo> "Bring (m) to register A" is an instruction
01:38:40 <Sgeo> What's the difference between m and M. And I don't see how to load R with anything
01:42:12 <Sgeo> Unless R is the I/O connected register?
01:45:04 <zzo38> I don't know if "M" is a printing error, or if the program shown in there itself has printing errors (although it says "it is not intended as an operational program")
01:50:33 <fizzie> Nice to have a dedicated "Ring Bell" instruction, don't see that sort of thing in modern computers.
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02:10:24 <Sgeo> What is a "computational mode"?
02:10:49 <shachaf> I suppose it means the most common computation.
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05:24:18 <zzo38> Is there a simple short way to use Windows Powershell to send a binary file using a raw TCP socket?
05:24:51 <zzo38> (that I can then receive on this computer using netcat)
05:32:56 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133017&oldid=132979 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+318)
05:33:28 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133018&oldid=133017 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+3)
05:44:26 <shachaf> There must be, since I think Powershell can call Windows APIs.
06:17:07 <Sgeo> AD/ECS-37 has a "B" buffer that it can use for output.
06:17:45 <Sgeo> And a "BI" buffer for input
06:20:57 <Sgeo> The NASA document has a reference to "SDS- 9 30 and AD/ ECS Interface
06:21:05 <Sgeo> But I don't think I can find that document
06:22:07 <Sgeo> "Command Next PCM/DHE to RA Transfer " so R+A might be a combined register?
06:27:21 <Sgeo> EXM = 0o61 (in the configuration NASA was using)
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08:38:48 <cpressey> "Where's Waldo?", except it's an audiobook
08:44:44 <ais523> I guess you'd need a definition for what Waldo sounds like?
08:45:05 <ais523> and try to pick him out among a conversation
08:46:22 <ais523> hmm, maybe Haskell is missing a combinator there
08:55:00 <ais523> anyway, I had a conceptual issue with Turing-completeness: suppose we have a language that would otherwise be Turing-complete, but it defines a) provable infinite loops or b) any infinite loop to be undefined behaviour
08:55:24 <ais523> does this negate the Turing-completeness?
08:55:38 <ais523> (where "provable" means that the interpreter can prove that an infinite loop exists)
08:55:45 <ais523> (but you don't know the interpreter's proof ability)
08:57:59 <cpressey> Unless the interpreter has an oracle for halting, there will be infinite loops that the interpreter can't prove are infinite. So I guess the interesting case is, the interpreter does have such an oracle.
08:58:36 <ais523> well, if you can observably trigger the oracle, then the language is then super-Turing, isn't it? but the problem is that undefined behaviour isn't observable
08:58:43 <ais523> because it might just do whatever you were expecting
09:01:32 <ais523> hmm, if you know the logic that the interpreter is using for proving loops to be infinite, then you can write a program that simultaneously a) runs a program and b) searches for a proof that it will halt
09:01:42 <cpressey> If you can observably trigger the oracle then I guess the language is super-Turing, but that doesn't seem too surprising, since we said it had access to that oracle and we know the oracle can do something Turing machines can't
09:01:45 <ais523> if you succed in either, then you halt, so there's no infinite loop
09:02:03 <ais523> and if neither is possible, then the program runs forever but the interpreter can't prove that it does
09:02:17 <ais523> as such, it's only the oracle case that matters
09:02:41 <ais523> or the case where you don't know how the interpreter is proving things, but that isn't obviously different from an oracle
09:03:29 <cpressey> If it has an oracle but goes out of its way to hide it and act (as far as anyone can observe) like a TM, then it's not exhibiting super-Turing behaviour - it's indistinguishable from a TM without such an oracle.
09:04:45 <ais523> well, I'm partly thinking of languages like C++, which defines an infinite loop to be undefined behaviour unless it has some observable side effect
09:04:58 <ais523> although you can easily work around that one simply by writing to a volatile variable
09:05:40 <ais523> that problem is easily fixable, but the implications are still pretty amazing
09:08:43 <cpressey> So the TM has an oracle. The oracle says "This will loop forever." So the TM just spins instead of running the program. If you can detect that the TM is spinning instead of running teh program, then yes. You've caught it out, you can tell it must have an oracle.
09:11:06 <cpressey> If the TM does something other than "just spin", e.g. maybe it runs some *other* program that it knows will never halt... that becomes harder to detect
09:11:29 <ais523> I have an interpreter for The Waterfall Model which detects certain infinite loops and deadlocks rather than running at 100% CPU power, that's easily detectable
09:11:34 <ais523> although, of course it isn't a full oracle
09:12:06 <ais523> ooh, what about this: you design the program to, when it halts, print the number of execution steps it took it to halt
09:12:27 <ais523> then, you run the program – if it halts, you run it again with a step limit that's higher than the number it printed
09:12:38 <ais523> if the program halts, then both runs halt, and the second run finishes in time
09:13:06 <ais523> if the program doesn't halt, then regardless of what the first run does, you discover in the second run that the first run didn't halt properly, so the halt must have been due to UB
09:13:52 <ais523> as long as you can bound the UB to some extent (i.e. have a reliable way to get the interpreter back to a sane state, and don't get killed by the demons that come out of your nose), I think this makes it possible to build a TC system out of the UB-on-infinite-loop interpreter
09:14:10 <ais523> but, because UB prevents you reasoning about the program's behaviour at all, you need a manual restarting step to clear the UB
09:19:42 <cpressey> Which sounds awfully close to giving a definition for undefined behaviour in your language :)
09:24:47 <ais523> I think bounded UB is quite common in esolang implementations, though – along the lines of "the program could loop forever or hold, and could produce arbitrary output of the form it normally produces, but won't do anything else"
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09:26:40 <cpressey> *poorly* defined behaviour is quite common :) "Not fully defined behaviour" is common too, it's basically what abstraction is.
09:27:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133019&oldid=132971 * Ais523 * (-4) /* Delete pages */ fix formatting
09:28:01 <cpressey> You Are Reading the Name of this Esolang also requires an interpreter to be able to detect *some* infinite loops. But not all of them. So it doesn't strictly require an oracle.
09:28:55 <cpressey> What you're calling UB I guess I'm now trying to think of as an abstraction
09:29:58 <ais523> John Regehr has done a lot of research on the mathematical basis behind compiler optimizations, and UB is formalized as part of that, along the lines of "a program has a set of legal behaviours, an optimization must transform it to a program that has a subset of its original behaviours"
09:30:18 <ais523> so UB gives the optimizer license to do anything in a situation where UB would occur
09:33:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133020&oldid=133019 * Ais523 * (+772) /* Delete pages */ some thoughts
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09:47:07 <cpressey> In conventional mathematics, the result of dividing by zero is undefined. But this is not usually taken as meaning that after I've divided by zero, I can submit any answer I want and carry on :) It's usually more like, we shan't go down that path as we won't get any sensible answers there.
09:48:04 <ais523> right – programming language specification designers possibly went too far with that one
09:48:54 <ais523> interestingly, in declarative languages, division by zero can have a sensible definition that's consistent with the rest of the language: Y is X / 0 produces an assertion that X is 0, but no assertions on Y
09:49:03 <ais523> although, generally they don't seem to use that definition in practice
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10:32:58 <int-e> many theorem provers agree that x/0 = 0 :P
10:34:04 <int-e> And quite a few people take great issue with that.
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10:42:18 <int-e> Oh there's some pushback about some of the more egregious cases of undefined behavior, nice! https://isocpp.org/files/papers/P2809R3.html
10:47:22 <int-e> TC-ness is an annoyingly informal concept. Which /may/ be unavoidable because you want to leave so many aspects of models of computation open.
10:50:56 <int-e> Hmm... what if you run the machine only once? You could output a trace of the execution and then an LBA can verify that (that's almost cheating since the trace by its nature will be padded sufficiently). Can we go below that for verification?
10:53:16 <ais523> you can verify an appropriately encoded execution trace with two PDAs
10:53:38 <ais523> i.e. if they both accept the trace it's valid
10:53:46 <int-e> I was headed for co-NPDA
10:54:43 <ais523> where co-nondeterministic means that every possible execution has to accept, not just one?
10:55:04 <ais523> yes I think that works
10:55:13 <int-e> Intersection of just two CFGs, I have to think about that.
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10:57:37 <int-e> (The encoding I have in mind is for a single tape TM and records symbols written, symbols read, and moving left and right. Is there more useful information that one can add?)
10:58:17 <int-e> Oh you can target a two-counter machine I guess? So one PDA checks one counter and the other checks the second one.
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11:00:17 <int-e> that makes a nice puzzle actually
11:00:49 <cpressey> Intersection of two CFGs is undecidable, there's a famous proof of that one
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11:00:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:!aoQ):]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133021 * Gggfr * (+231) Created page with "Thos os turing complete right? Like the bf loop is there there is ^ and V which is the same as < and > on a stack {1}+ is + in bf {1}- is - in bf right?? Idk ~~~~"
11:01:08 <int-e> Ah, you can do the same thing with a tape because it's two stacks.
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11:01:27 <int-e> That... could've been quicker :)
11:02:47 <cpressey> I'm sorry, I'm not following that closely
11:03:33 <int-e> (also the execution trace could record states too for convenience, but the PDAs can keep track of that with ease)
11:03:56 <int-e> cpressey: I think I went off a tangent anyway.
11:06:24 <ais523> the encoding I had in mind is Thue-like: a PDA can check one step of Thue evaluation, if one of the "before" or "after" states is written backwards (but then it forgets what the string is)
11:06:51 <ais523> so with two PDAs, one can check the odd steps and the other the even steps
11:07:12 <ais523> if every second step is written backwards
11:07:20 <int-e> my two PDAs are deterministic now :)
11:07:39 <int-e> though you can do that for Thue if you leave a few extra markers
11:08:30 <ais523> this is my favourite way to show "try to prove this grammar ambiguous" to be an interpreter for a TC language
11:09:15 <cpressey> I've not quite followed what we're trying to achieve here, but the relevant thing about the intersection-of-CFGs-proof is (quoting WP here) "the language of non-accepting computation histories of a Turing machine M on input w is a context-free language recognizable by a non-deterministic pushdown automaton."
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11:09:54 <int-e> that was the co-NPDA, more or less
11:10:11 <int-e> (but without consulting wikipedia)
11:10:12 <cpressey> doesn't help that my connection keeps hiccupping
11:10:36 <int-e> cpressey: yeah, but we do have logs, as I'm sure you're aware
11:10:47 <cpressey> Per the Computation histories article on WP, "the language of non-accepting computation histories of a Turing machine M on input w is a context-free language recognizable by a non-deterministic pushdown automaton."
11:11:10 <int-e> Yes that message made it through.
11:11:12 <cpressey> that's the nub of the intersection-of-CFLs-is-undecidable proof
11:11:43 <cpressey> How it relates to ais523's idea, I'm less certain
11:13:11 <cpressey> I didn't intend to consult Wikipedia btw, it was just easier to cite than my original reference, which is a textbook
11:13:23 <int-e> ais523: Oh do you make one language for even steps, and one for odd steps, add checks for initial and final strings s and t and then the grammar is ambiguous only iff s ->* t in the underlying Thue system?
11:14:01 <int-e> or semi-thue system
11:14:35 <int-e> maybe I should say SRS since that's the terminology I'm actually familiar with :P
11:15:48 <int-e> cpressey: At the moment I'm basically taking ais523's statements and treating them as puzzles. My computability theory brain is a bit rusty.
11:16:13 <int-e> Though nmaybe not as rusty as I thought.
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11:18:30 <cpressey> "Things with undefined behaviour" and "things with oracles" are two different categories in my mind, so I find this pretty difficult to think about.
11:18:57 <int-e> . o O ( things with undefined oracles )
11:20:28 <int-e> AIUI the oracle was an implementation detail of the infinite-loops-are-undefined-behavior machine.
11:20:45 <int-e> So not something you have to worry about to understand the setting.
11:22:21 <cpressey> I'm not so sure about that (or I don't understand the setting).
11:23:05 <cpressey> "Undefined behaviour" is something that occurs in a specification. What is the specification of this machine?
11:23:23 <cpressey> "If the program goes into a loop, the behaviour of the machine is undefined"?
11:23:40 <int-e> Whenever the behavior on an input is an infinite loop (non-termination) the machine can substitute any other behavior it wants (including maintaining that infinite loop).
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11:25:04 <cpressey> OK. I think the question was whether this is "super-Turing behaviour"? I think my answer is the same, it's only super-Turing if it has an oracle that can divine halting, and in that case, it's not surprising
11:25:31 <cpressey> Otherwise, you have a machine that analyses its program, determines that it's an infinite loop, does whatever it likes if so
11:25:44 <int-e> It's not necessarily super-Turing because the machine can just maintain the ordinary Turing machine (or another model of computation) behavior.
11:26:10 <cpressey> But if you can't tell that it's doing that, it's not observably super-Turing
11:26:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:!aoQ):]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133022&oldid=133021 * Gggfr * (+1)
11:26:34 <ais523> <int-e> ais523: Oh do you make one language for even steps, and one for odd steps, add checks for initial and final strings s and t and then the grammar is ambiguous only iff s ->* t in the underlying Thue system? ← right, and have a grammar that can act as either language
11:27:43 <ais523> and (on the original topic) I was more interested in if this is sub-Turing due to no infinite loops, but maybe it isn't
11:29:02 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133023&oldid=132494 * Timwi * (-286) I wish to move away from including pseudocode representations of the function declarations and instead have the comments describe just what the functions do
11:29:59 <int-e> Maybe you could ask whether (total) recursive functions are less powerful than partial recursve ones... and the answer is, I think, no, because that would imply that would make recursively enumerable sets recursive.
11:31:30 <int-e> (It's a different question.)
11:33:15 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133024&oldid=133023 * Timwi * (-18) Fix link to Hello world program in esoteric languages
11:33:44 <cpressey> Different, but also interesting. Is the set of Turing machines that do not have halt states, equivalent to the set of Turing machines that sometimes halt? I would say no.
11:36:25 <int-e> Well you can always tweak the acceptance condition in your model of computation.
11:37:03 <int-e> You need /some/ discernable observation of course.
11:38:35 <ais523> I think it depends on the definition of "equivalent"
11:39:03 <ais523> it is under the "tight loop = halt" model that is sometimes used
11:39:30 <ais523> (where a tight loop repeats the entire state of the interpreter exactly)
11:40:44 <esolangs> [[Funciton/Digital root calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133025&oldid=108709 * Timwi * (+132) I wish to move away from including pseudocode representations of the function declarations and instead have the comments describe just what the functions do
11:42:21 <int-e> Along with "accept if it ever writes $" "accept if it ever moves to the left of the starting point" and many others. There's a vague connection to Rice' theorem here.
11:44:34 <ais523> I like the "left of the start" rule because it's even somewhat justifiable
11:46:55 <int-e> You should be able to do silly things like "accept when all states have been entered an odd number of times".
11:47:49 <int-e> (that one could be tedious, especially if you work with only two symbols)
11:48:42 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133026&oldid=131165 * MihaiEso * (+132) /* Some bonus stuff */
11:56:36 <int-e> ais523: Oh this is also related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computably_inseparable ...if you make a TM that accepts all provable theorems and rejects all disprovable theorems, and leave the other cases undefined but terminating, that will be super-TC.
11:57:11 <int-e> (That concept also connects to Rice' theorem, of course.)
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12:00:06 <int-e> And now for something entirely different... do you think that YT's new "stable volume" feature (aka Dynamic Range Compression) increases the average length of auto-play chains that people subject themselves to?
12:01:18 <int-e> (for me it's yet another thing to routinely disable when using YT)
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12:06:51 <cpressey> int-e: I would imagine that was their goal in implementing it, yes
12:11:40 <cpressey> So the way I see Rice's theorem is, it's based on a defined condition, right? "Reaching a certain state that we call a halt state" is one such condition. Many models of computation define such a condition. But there are also models of computation that do not, by themselves, define any such condition.
12:14:46 <cpressey> If we think up a condition and impose it on such a model, is it the same model? I would say no, you've defined a new model by adding your condition.
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12:16:39 <int-e> Well the connection is loose. The thing about Rice is that it's extensional... you look at languages accepted by a machine rather than what it does internally.
12:17:56 <int-e> So to apply Rice directly you'll have to define languages that include a description of a Turing machine or other type of program.
12:17:57 <cpressey> To even say "this machine accepts a language" you need to refer to defined conditions, like a halt state
12:18:15 <int-e> But of course you *can* define such languages.
12:19:49 <int-e> Hah this literally says "extensional". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice's_theorem#Formal_statement
12:20:31 <int-e> (I'm more familiar with the index set formulation - which correspond to formal languages.)
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12:59:49 <b_jonas> ais523 "when it halts, print the number of execution steps it took […] then, you run the program – if it halts, you run it again with a step limit that's higher than the number it printed" => that works if the UB of the first program is sandboxed so it can't do anything worse than print the wrong result. David Madore had a few puzzles related to this recently, let me find them. In practice, that UB
12:59:55 <b_jonas> can do worse things, like loop infinitely, explode the reactor, give you cancer, or modify what the second run will do.
13:00:17 <b_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2023-12-24.2774.dragon-riddle.html is the puzzle
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13:02:14 <b_jonas> sometimes it's useful to define something such that it doesn't give full UB, just, say, puts an arbitrary integer into the output register
13:03:32 <b_jonas> but UB is necessary in practice simply because our computer architectures are such that if your code accesses memory through stray pointers it can usually run arbitrary code
13:03:44 <b_jonas> so if you don't want full UB, you need memory safety
13:05:04 <b_jonas> "many theorem provers agree that x/0 = 0" => yes, I think that's a practical way to define division in many cases, and I wish more libraries or languges defined it that way
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13:07:25 <b_jonas> push-down automata reading the same trace for verifying it => that's an interesting idea
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14:09:25 <ais523> b_jonas: right, I mentioned that the UB has to be bounded somewhat
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14:10:03 <ais523> a concept of "bounded UB" is useful in many languages, I think – it doesn't really work in C where the consequence of UB can be "runs arbitrary code", which might do anything within the power of the computer it's running on
14:10:16 <ais523> but lots of languages will be able to bound the UB to at least some extent
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14:21:57 <ais523> (reading int-e's link from earlier) huh, C11 also has a forward progress guarantee
14:22:08 <ais523> although it's not quite the same as C++'s
14:23:26 <b_jonas> oh nice, spam email in czech. I don't get that often somehow.
14:26:43 <ais523> I've had quite a few foreign-language spam emails but I don't remember any in Czech specifically
14:27:42 <ais523> Chinese/Japanese and Arabic seem to be the most common (although I can normally distinguish Chinese from Japanese given sufficient amounts of text and staring at it for a while, I don't generally go to that much effort with spam emails)
14:30:00 <ais523> I cleared out my spam recently, and currently have 15 spam emails that got far in enough in the sending process to not be rejected before they were fully sent (although most were caught by a statistical spam filter that runs afterwards); 11 are in English, two in Arabic, one in Polish, and one in German (but that claims to have been sent from Chile)
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14:30:54 <ais523> I guess maybe the Chinese/Japanese aren't that common, but I see them more often than most spam because they sort to the end in Unicode order
14:35:33 <b_jonas> English seems to be the most common for me
14:35:53 <b_jonas> but maybe I just notice it more because it takes more time to recognize it's spam
14:36:51 <ais523> admittedly, I haven't tried translating most of the foreign-language emails in languages I don't know in order to ensure they're not spam
14:37:28 <b_jonas> for some of the Hungarian ones it's even harder to tell if they're spam, but I get fewer of those.
14:37:30 <ais523> I know at least a small amount (and in some cases almost a medium amount) of most Western European languages, which is normally enough to verify that emails in those are spam
14:38:21 <ais523> I would expect English to be more common than Hungarian for spam, even sent to a Hungarian address, due to substantially more spammers knowing it and that outweighing the influence of language-based spam targeting
14:40:20 <b_jonas> there's a lot of Hungarian spam that are sent from shops or websites that I've actually interacted with, either "newsletters" or personalized reminders to recommend buying the products for which I've opened the description page
14:40:34 <b_jonas> but those are not the ones where it's hard to tell it's spam
14:41:14 <b_jonas> where it can be hard to tell is email pretending to come from the few banks or telephone companies or similar
14:43:00 <ais523> b_jonas: IMO, spam from people you've interacted with should be categorized differently from randomly targeted spam (although I can see reasons to make both illegal, the arguments are likely different in the two cases)
14:45:33 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133027&oldid=132389 * Gggfr * (+312)
14:48:01 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133028&oldid=133027 * Gggfr * (+49)
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15:05:45 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133029&oldid=133028 * Gggfr * (+52)
15:08:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:!aoQ):]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133030&oldid=133022 * Ais523 * (+831) r to [[User:Gggfr]]
15:15:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[]]": Copyright violation: contains a substantial quote from a Chinese song that will not be public domain until 2045 (and I am annoyed that I had to try to figure this one out)
15:18:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133031&oldid=132324 * Ais523 * (+374) /* Copyright violations */ new section
15:18:49 <korvo> ais523: I think you know this, but quick double-check: there's also a power *ceiling* on approaching TC via proofs about program properties.
15:19:25 <ais523> korvo: I'm not fully clear on what you mean
15:19:28 <korvo> The most potent version of this is from Conway, who gave FRACTRAN as constructive proof that Collatz-style and Goldbach-style problems are as hard as TC problems to humans.
15:20:19 <ais523> although, what Fractran, Tip, etc. prove is just that some generalized Collatz programs are hard – it doesn't necessarily prove that the original Collatz problem is one of them
15:20:22 <korvo> I can sit anybody down and convince them that the original Collatz is true. We have the numeric evidence. But we don't have *proof*, and so we could very well be hilariously horribly wrong because we were blinded by the hope for beautiful maths.
15:21:14 <ais523> I remember a post on one of the mathematics stack exchanges where the author asked whether there were any numbers with a particular property, and if not, why not
15:21:52 <korvo> Yeah. What's interesting is the nature of the evidence. For *any* given nat, I can show you that it can't possibly be part of a cycle using a templated proof search. So, does that template constitute a proof? Gödel said nope.
15:22:00 <ais523> where the property in question was satisfying two other properties simultaneously
15:22:55 <ais523> and they said, effectively, "if you take random properties with the same density in the integers of a given size and check to see whether they're true simultaneously, the expected number of counterexamples is «some small number, IIRC less than 1» so it's possible that your conjecture is true for no reason"
15:22:57 <ais523> and that really stuck with me#
15:23:58 <korvo> Hah, yeah. The nats are weird that way because they're *the* nats, and so facts about them don't really have a basis.
15:24:14 <ais523> korvo: do you know about omega-inconsistency? the idea is that a formal system might be able to simultaneously prove the statements "X is true for at least one integer", and, for each specific integer n, "X is false for n"
15:24:45 <korvo> All I really had wanted to point out was that if you had a way to transform TC problems so that we *could* decide Goldbach-style problems, then that would suggest that Goldbach was easy and we were holding it upside-down all along.
15:24:50 <ais523> and yet, if the proofs aren't constructive, this might not necessarily be an inconsistency in the system because you haven't actually proved both a statement and its negation
15:25:13 <korvo> Which, from what we know of NP-completeness, is just not very likely. It's more likely that TC is a hard-edged ceiling with nothing dangling down from it.
15:25:48 <ais523> NP-completeness is weird because it applies to so many problems, *but* there are higher complexity classes
15:25:59 <korvo> ais523: Yes! Exactly. That's the Gödelian machinery I was thinking of. Same situation. We have a proof of Collatz but no omega-proof.
15:26:03 <ais523> Turing-completeness being the highest practically realisable computability class at least makes some sort of sense
15:27:20 <korvo> NPC and TC make a lot of sense as *categories* with poly- and computable reductions respectively as their arrows. From that perspective P=NP is ridiculous; the entirety of PH should manifest.
15:28:12 <ais523> oh no – I know a lot of category theory, I have used it at work –but I find it so hard to reason about in my head because there are so many different relevant levels of abstraction
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15:28:35 <ais523> it is very easy to get multiple levels of abstraction confused, and having something new to put on the arrows makes it so much harder
15:29:31 <ais523> there is a good intuition for this sort of puzzle/game – if it is possible to do a move, and later to do the inverse of the same move, and accomplish something in the process, it is probably PSPACE-complete; otherwise, it is probably NP-complete
15:29:58 <ais523> in cases where it isn't, it normally isn't too hard to find a fast general solution
15:30:12 <korvo> Whoa, that's a big statement. Sounds kind of like finding a group.
15:30:23 <ais523> I think there was one which turned out to be EXPSPACE-complete but that was a bit of an anomaly
15:30:32 <FreeFull> On the other hand, integer factorisation might be easier than NP, we don't know
15:30:56 <ais523> I remember when primality testing was discovered to be possible in polynomial time
15:31:06 <korvo> Think of factorizing as in BQP, and think of BQP vs NP as the open question.
15:32:21 <ais523> although, interestingly we don't actually know the order of polynomial for certain even for some of the existing algorithms
15:32:31 <korvo> ais523: So, with all this out there, one thought I've had about both NPC and TC is: what if Rice's logic only applies to uniform encodings?
15:32:49 <ais523> it's along the lines of "best case O(n^6), worst case O(n^12), but we don't know whether any values actually hit the worst case"
15:33:13 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133032&oldid=132559 * Gggfr * (+617) /* Idea 3 */
15:33:18 <korvo> My running example is Traveling Salesman in NPC. There's a really nice heuristic approach that runs fairly fast, and it's what actual logistics firms use around the world.
15:34:15 <korvo> On one hand, this heuristic fails as Salesman approaches the limiting cases of Hamiltonian cycles, and that's the standard way of showing it's NPC. On the other hand, some other problems might be well-optimized by the Salesman heuristic.
15:35:14 <ais523> for Travelling Salesman, IIRC there's an algorithm that's guaranteed to be within 150% of optimal
15:35:24 <korvo> Maybe this applies to TC too. Like, sure, we can't prove Collatz in The Waterfall Model directly because the matrix will just grow without bound, but maybe we can prove it in some other TC language.
15:35:26 <ais523> or, well, I know the algorithm is correct but forget whether the 150% is the correct factor
15:35:37 <FreeFull> Is there a name for problems that can be solved in faster than linear time?
15:35:46 <ais523> probably just "sublinear"?
15:36:18 <ais523> such problems are rare because you don't actually get to read the entire input, you have to skip parts of it
15:36:24 <FreeFull> What about "faster than any non-constant polynomial"?
15:36:30 <korvo> Our current techniques for migrating within TC are all compiler-oriented. We add a bunch of interpretative overhead ("managed runtime") to the compiler outputs, and so we end up emulating the original Rice logic.
15:37:11 <korvo> So we'd need some new way of transforming within TC which genuinely exposes the underlying objects of a computation. I have no idea how to think about this.
15:37:33 <ais523> it's not quite the same thing, but one of my favourite computer performance results is based on the hashing algorithm MD4 – it is faster to find a collision in MD4 than it is to actually calculate the hash of a given string
15:38:12 <ais523> it is not surprising that some hashing algorithms are broken, but it is surprising that some hashing algorithms that were used seriously are *that* broken
15:38:20 <korvo> FreeFull: Like ais523 says, we usually care about log space, rather than log time. That class is often called L in literature.
15:39:05 <korvo> Well, we haven't even proven that one-way functions exist. We're still guessing what a hash looks like.
15:39:42 <FreeFull> Right, proving that one-way functions exist would be a huge result
15:40:02 <ais523> that mostly doesn't matter – what's practically relevant is not whether the inverse function exists but whether anyone find sit
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15:41:48 <FreeFull> If you prove it doesn't exist, then you don't have to worry about people finding it, assuming you can actually construct the one-way function
15:42:52 <ais523> well, the problem there is that most practically defined hashing algorithms produce finite-length output
15:43:28 <ais523> so we *know* that the inverse function exists (assuming that "no inverse" is a possible output), if only as an arbitrary list of cases that would take impossibly long to find
15:47:01 <ais523> I assume the "one-way functions exist" conjecture has some way to define them precisely in a way that avoids the attack, perhaps by using an infinite domain and codomain
15:48:19 <b_jonas> ais"I remember when primality testing was discovered to be possible in polynomial time" => I remember I heard of this when it was still kind of a new result, you know, with the internet not spreading every news instantly, and math papers not becoming obsolete in half a year like biology papers do, so it still counted as new a few years later. but the result was from 2002, so I don't think I ever knew
15:48:25 <b_jonas> this as an open question, wuth deterministic composite testing and proven good random prime testing available.
15:49:53 <b_jonas> kind of like the strong perfect graph theorem
15:51:36 <b_jonas> "faster than any non-constant polynomial" => you mean like sorting variable-length strings?
15:51:40 <korvo> ais523: The modern definition is in terms of the smallest circuit that computes the inverse.
15:52:12 <korvo> Or, non-uniformly, the family of circuits, one for each size of input and output.
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15:53:25 <ais523> korvo: ah, I see – the inverse is allowed to exist, it just has to be "much" more complicated
15:53:51 <b_jonas> "it is faster to find a collision in MD4 than it is to actually calculate the hash of a given string" => oh, is that why https://valerieaurora.org/hash.html has a "Collisions generated by hand / Expert reaction: Memorize as fun party trick for next faculty mixer" as a status for cryptgraphgic hash functions?
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15:55:04 <korvo> ais523: Right. It also doesn't say too much about interactive approaches, like the family of WEP-cracking algorithms.
15:58:14 <korvo> b_jonas: Yeah, although at this level of detail, we start to need definitions of randomness. IIRC the current definition of one-way uses pseudorandomness in terms of Kolmogorov complexity?
16:03:14 <ais523> I strongly suspect that calculating Kolmogorov complexity precisely is uncomputable
16:03:24 <ais523> (although it is trivial to get an upper and lower bound)
16:03:38 <ais523> I guess that probably doesn't matter for the conjecture, though
16:04:32 <ais523> hmm, it's interesting that I can't trivially *prove* it's uncomputable
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16:05:14 <ais523> there are lots of programs for which we can't compute/prove whether they produce a specific output or not – but are there any such programs for which there isn't a shorter program that also produces that output?
16:05:55 <FreeFull> To prove that a shorter program doesn't produce the same output, you have to prove that it halts
16:05:59 <ais523> intuitively, it feels like "do something of unprovable halting status + produce this output" should lead to a longer program than just printing the output
16:06:33 <ais523> FreeFull: no, the conjecture is "program X halts and produces Y, and no shorter program halts and produces Y" – you can disprove that by finding a shorter program that halts and produces Y even if you can't prove that X halts
16:07:19 <FreeFull> I'm not talking about X but about the shorter program
16:07:38 <ais523> ah right, there might be a shorter program that we also can't prove whether that one halts
16:07:45 <ais523> but then the same argument can be applied recursively
16:08:08 <ais523> that said, suppose there's an odd perfect number – a program that brute-forces the smallest odd perfect number probably is the shortest way to represent it
16:08:35 <ais523> because we know that any odd perfect numbers must be incredibly large, and it'd be very surprising if there were a shorter way to encode it
16:08:51 <FreeFull> The busy beaver numbers are related
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16:10:50 <ais523> ah right, because for busy beaver candidates there might be some that do in fact halt, and the numbers those programs output are going to be extremely large and those programs are going to be the shortest way to encode them, but also hard to prove they halt
16:12:16 <ais523> oh wow! the busy beaver number for 2-color 5-state Turing machines has been discovered (on July 2, so very recently)
16:12:38 <ais523> https://discuss.bbchallenge.org/t/july-2nd-2024-we-have-proved-bb-5-47-176-870/237 (requires JavaScript)
16:16:02 <b_jonas> "we know that any odd perfect numbers must be incredibly large" => wait, do we know that? how large?
16:16:49 <int-e> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8088 ...hmm somehow it didn't register with me how recent that was when I saw it
16:17:11 <b_jonas> yeah, I did mention that in the channel when I saw it at https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8088
16:17:30 <b_jonas> I'm considering to use it as the next month's password
16:17:41 <int-e> b_jonas: Wikipedia mentions N > 10^1500 as a lower bound.
16:18:06 <int-e> which may or may not be "incredibly large" by your standards :)
16:19:04 <b_jonas> yeah, that's large but not really incredibly large
16:19:17 <ais523> I agree – I misremembered
16:19:21 <ais523> it is not up to googology levels
16:19:39 <int-e> Well, googol is 10^100.
16:19:41 <ais523> I thought the known bound was larger, but apparently not
16:19:45 <int-e> It's not googol-plexy
16:20:24 <int-e> that bound is from 2012, people may have pushed it further
16:21:30 <Thelie> Nockiro, versuch mal ssh bei 2a03:9b40:237e:e600:82d:451e:f104:833e
16:21:45 -!- X-Scale has joined.
16:21:57 <Thelie> whoops wrong channel, sorry 😬
16:21:58 <ais523> Thelie: wrong channel? there isn't a Nockiro in this channel
16:22:12 <b_jonas> compare this to the next Fermat prime, which must be at least 2**(2**33)
16:22:16 <int-e> and now that IP is permanently logged, yay
16:22:42 <ais523> also I love the use of "bei" with an IP address – it makes sense now that I've seen it but it was a little surprising
16:22:57 <b_jonas> still not googology large, but at least significantly larger
16:23:03 <ais523> b_jonas: isn't that cheating, because it's fairly early in the *sequence* of Fermat primes
16:23:04 <Thelie> Eh not that bad it's a public server anyways
16:23:09 <ais523> or, well, Fermat numbers
16:23:13 <Thelie> but still a bit of a fuckup
16:23:29 <Thelie> Anyways, sorry for the interruption!
16:23:30 <int-e> eh it's amusing to us :)
16:23:34 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but that's kind of the point, if there's a next Fermat prime, I expect it to have the form 2**(2**k) where k is small, so the smallest program generating it will likely just hard-code k
16:23:40 <int-e> (pretty sure it's not just me)
16:23:52 <b_jonas> well, not certain, because a slow trial division algorithm might be faster
16:24:06 <b_jonas> but still, the one that hard-codes k might be competitive
16:24:34 <b_jonas> whereas the odd perfect numbers don't have such a restricted form, so you might have to search for some random ass-pull combination to find it for all we know
16:24:46 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess the problem there is that the 2**(2**…) bit is likely to be hardcoded in both the search program and the hardcode-the-value program
16:24:46 <b_jonas> but then maybe it does have a nice special form, we just can't prove that
16:24:57 <ais523> so the real question is whether the k is smaller than the search algorithm
16:25:36 <b_jonas> not really, if you write the general search program then hard-coding 2**k+1 is enough
16:25:52 <ais523> I guess there's also the separate problem of "if we are given an odd perfect number / a large Fermat prime and tasked with discovering the shortest program to find it, we would probably notice that it has the required unusual form"
16:26:19 <ais523> like, determining whether a program that finds the smallest N ever halts is much easier if you have an example of an N
16:27:01 <int-e> I guess the project that pushed this bound is defunct https://web.archive.org/web/20181106015226/http://oddperfect.org/ ... they got from 10^300 to 10^1500 which feels substantial to me.
16:29:25 <b_jonas> the reason why the existence of odd perfect numbers is such a famous open question is mostly because of how old it is. the others postdate year 1600, but this one is from before year 1
16:30:34 <b_jonas> it must be one of the oldest open problems in mathematics
16:31:33 <int-e> It's old, and it's elementary (you can explain the problem in full to a highschool student.)
16:32:25 <int-e> Plus there's some nice theory for the even number case... so there's something you can teach along with it :)
16:32:28 <ais523> and it's particularly infuriating because the even perfect numbers are so easy to characterize
16:32:40 <b_jonas> yeah. we have lots of elementary open problems, but not many that are so old.
16:34:13 <ais523> that said, we don't even know that there are infinitely many even perfect numbers, right?
16:36:33 <int-e> Well it's tied to Mersenne primes.
16:38:19 <b_jonas> apparently there are 51 Mersenne primes known at the moment
16:38:35 <ais523> yes, each even perfect number as a corresponding Mersenne prime and vice versa
16:39:47 <korvo> ais523: Oh! Okay, I thought you'd heard this news already. Sorry! Let me start again. Determining BB(6) will require solving a Collatz-style problem and BB(7) a Goldbach variant that the community calls "Bigfoot".
16:40:05 <korvo> https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Cryptids is the full list. The BB(6) machine is "Antihydra". I've had a go at it and it is much tougher than it looks.
16:40:09 <ais523> korvo: it's recent and I don't check busy-beaver-related news that often
16:40:22 <ais523> I already opened the Cryptids page in a browser, but have not read it yet
16:41:07 <korvo> So yes, your intuition is spot-on, *and* it turns out that we just reached the last stair-step before the ceiling.
16:41:49 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe it isn't actually that old
16:42:38 <b_jonas> the definition of perfect numbers is that old, but I don't think they asked whether there were odd perfect numbers until like some time between 1400 and 1800
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16:46:35 <ais523> hmm, Bigfoot reminds me a lot of the sort of things Conedy can calculate
16:47:23 <ais523> it isn't a Collatz function in the traditional sense because b clearly and obviously grows forever – it just causes a to change along the way, and the question is whether that ever gets down to 0
16:48:46 <korvo> Oh dang, they have a page for Conway's approach: https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Probviously
16:49:11 <korvo> Which I guess we might call "omega-obviously" from earlier.
16:50:16 <korvo> Yeah, Bigfoot's weird. One approach from Collatz which helps a little is to consider *when* Bigfoot could have a lot of decreasing alpha.
16:51:10 <korvo> We can see that -- probviously -- any Bigfoot position which tends towards zero is going to be wound up like a capacitor.
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16:51:34 <korvo> And trivially, such capacitors are always finite by construction. If only it were that easy~
16:55:26 <ais523> one thing that interests me in the cryptids is that the small ones also seem easy to implement on counter machines
16:56:40 <ais523> I can directly implement Hydra in The Waterfall Model on seven clocks, I think (not completely sure as I haven't tried to do it yet), and it wouldn't surprise me if fewer are possible
16:56:56 <ais523> (that said, seven clocks is sufficient to implement a TC language, so…)
16:57:40 <korvo> Wait, Waterfall's not TC with fewer than seven? This is new to me.
16:58:13 <ais523> just, it gets hard to write UTMs in very few clocks
16:58:32 <korvo> Oh, it's still open. Okay. Sorry, I was ready to be excited for progress on mortal-matrix. Matrices are really hard.
16:59:11 <ais523> seven is the smallest number that's probably been proven ("probably" in that a proof exists but hasn't yet been thoroughly checked for mistakes)
17:00:07 <ais523> any Spiral Rise program compiles both into a 7-clock Waterfall Model program (thus a 7-fraction FRACTRAN program), and a 5-symbol tag system
17:00:31 <ais523> (which in turn implies that there's a 5-symbol universal tag system, although the production rules with that construction are exceedingly long)
17:02:39 <ais523> although, hmm, did I get the Waterfall→FRACTRAN compilation upside-down?
17:02:44 <ais523> will have to think more about this
17:02:48 <b_jonas> for the tag system, do you get to choose some large variable starting state besides the 5 symbols?
17:03:06 <ais523> oh, just put the steady decrement at the start :-)
17:03:45 <korvo> I wish I had a proper database for these sorts of facts. Like, I want a database that stores a poset and labels the ways that we can reduce one language to another. Maybe a graph DB?
17:03:47 <ais523> with the universality coming from an "any program maps to some starting state" (with the map being calculable primitive-recursively in order to prevent cheating with a complex map)
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17:04:27 <ais523> korvo: there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters but it isn't very well updated
17:05:49 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. There's also a couple one-off diagrams drawn for Complexity Zoo and nLab by that one guy. They're fine, but they're also bespoke DOT.
17:06:32 <ais523> I have a really long-standing goal that I haven't had much time to work on, of choosing a "central" esolang and writing interpreters between it and lots of other interesting esolangs both ways
17:06:51 <ais523> to make it possible to generate an interpreter for any of them in any other, or a compiler from any of them to any other
17:06:53 <korvo> I've made two attempts at this, klesi and zaha, and neither is good. zaha can represent functors between posets, but can't label arrows.
17:07:34 <korvo> I mean, there's always BLC, but I think that instead of centrality, we should have a central esolang-building system. Like a Nix flake or something else, like a Nix flake.
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17:07:45 <ais523> my plan for a long time was to use an Underload variant, although more recently I decided that I'd prefer a bespoke language and came up with https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esimpl
17:08:08 <korvo> That'd make it easier to study stuff like Busy Beaver or your earlier semi-halting stuff.
17:08:13 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133033&oldid=133018 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (-318)
17:08:27 <ais523> although Esimpl is primarily designed to allow efficient implementations of other languages whilst being very easy to interpret and compile
17:08:37 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133034&oldid=133033 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (-1)
17:11:15 <ais523> I wrote a BF interpreter in Esimpl already
17:11:26 <ais523> (it's in the same tarball as the interpreter linked from the article)
17:12:14 <ais523> although I haven't written Esimpl impls in any esolangs yet (including itself)
17:15:09 <ais523> one of the big early goals would be a self-interpreter, because that makes it possible to use compilers as interpreters (by compiling into Esimpl and then self-interpreting it) – after that point it would be possible to work entirely with compilers
17:15:27 <ais523> (which would make the BF interpreter redundant, but it was mostly there as a test of the language anyway rather than something to practically use)
17:15:35 <korvo> Ah, like a Futamura specializer?
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17:23:57 <ais523> I think a minimal set of inputs required to be able to write a compiler from esolang A to esolang B in esolang C for any A, B, C is to have compilers to and from each esolang we care about to a common esolang, and one self-interpreter for that common esolang
17:24:37 <ais523> where the compilers themselves are written in the common esolang
17:24:44 <ais523> or, I guess they don't all have to be – just enough to bootstrap
17:26:03 <korvo> Aha. And that's the other part: they have to have a uniform sense of I/O, then.
17:26:58 <korvo> Like, a Waterfall Model program is a matrix of nats, right? But Brainfuck can't emit that directly. So there's also gotta be some sense of common encoding.
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17:28:10 <ais523> right, or at least a decided convention for each language to represent a common encoding (but the way in which each language interprets the encoding doesn't have to match the other languages)
17:28:34 <ais523> in practice almost all esolangs have a defined way to represent programs as a sequence of bytes
17:29:24 <ais523> there are a few that intentionally leave the details open or consider them to be irrelevant, and have ended up with more than one commonly used encoding (e.g. FRACTRAN), but there are various solutions to that (e.g. by considering different encodings to be different variants of the language)
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17:39:44 <korvo> That works. What do we do for binary lambda calculi or other bitwise encodings? I figure we just define another convention for padding.
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17:43:39 <ais523> right, or even just use a series of '0' and '1' characters
17:52:24 * korvo quietly chuckling to death
17:52:47 <korvo> Yeah, I guess. Whatever works.
17:53:22 <ais523> I was amused the first time I saw that, too (this is not the first time the problem has come up…)
17:54:44 <esolangs> [[User:Xff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133035 * Xff * (+36) Created page with "this is a alt for [[User:Yayimhere]]"
17:55:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133036&oldid=133032 * Xff * (+17)
17:55:41 <b_jonas> the "convention for padding" could be as simple as a single 1 bit followed by any number of 0 bits at the end, once you define bit order of course
17:56:49 <korvo> Well, I'm gonna stick to what I originally wanted to do, which is to contextualize the various BB results by automatically computing them and putting them up on a ruler.
17:57:23 <korvo> Compiling all the esolangs into each other can wait for another day. It's a fun thought, but sounds like a lot of work involving a lot of uninterested stakeholders.
18:00:31 <ais523> right, I think that's why it hasn't happened yet
18:01:07 <ais523> few people are interested, and most (probably all) of them have enough higher-priority things to do that they can't spent much time on it
18:01:16 <ais523> * spend much time on it
18:02:31 <ais523> b_jonas: sometimes a better padding convention can be created, depending on the language, e.g. binary lambda calculus is self-delimiting, and 7 pads with trailing 1 bits (because a 111 at the end of the program is a no-op and 11 and 1 are incomplete commands that can be ignored at the end of the program)
18:04:44 <esolangs> [[Titled]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133037&oldid=122556 * EvyLah * (+6) minor changes
18:05:52 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133038&oldid=126003 * EvyLah * (+48) you should see these too
18:06:05 <esolangs> [[Fun 2 code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133039 * Tommyaweosme * (+508) Created page with "Fun 2 code is a modification of [[Python]] where its like Fun 2 rhyme, a trendy song by Howard Moody. == How it works == First, you think up a swear word the first letter of the python command. Then, you write down 3 words that rhyme with it, seperated by new lin
18:07:44 <esolangs> [[Code your own instructions, lazyass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133040&oldid=124226 * EvyLah * (-428) /* Categories */ why is this here?
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18:08:43 <korvo> Yeah. I guess we should call that Tromp BLC? And then there's e.g. Iota and Jot, which both need padding.
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18:10:49 <esolangs> [[Anything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133042&oldid=123134 * Tommyaweosme * (+25)
18:11:16 <esolangs> [[Burgercamp+/burgercamp+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133043&oldid=130681 * Tommyaweosme * (+23)
18:11:45 <esolangs> [[Wikipedia is stupid and dumb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133044&oldid=130086 * Tommyaweosme * (+23)
18:16:19 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133045&oldid=133041 * Xff * (+218) /* hexadecimal triangle */
18:16:19 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/ESOLANG TOURNAMENT!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133046 * Tommyaweosme * (+341) Created page with "PARTICIPANTS!!!: [[brainfuck]] - 01 [[befunge]] - 02 [[slashes]] - 03 [[thue]] - 04 [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] - 05 [[3 Bits, 3 Bytes]] - 06 [[5 Bits, 20 Bytes]] - 07 [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] - 08 [[malbolge]] - 09 [[FIFTH]] - 10 [[HQ9+
18:17:14 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/ESOLANG TOURNAMENT!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133047&oldid=133046 * Tommyaweosme * (-2)
18:20:12 <esolangs> [[Vague]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133048&oldid=90571 * Tommyaweosme * (+9) more info please
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18:24:43 <b_jonas> for brainfuck you can just pad with > at the start or end
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18:26:45 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133050&oldid=133049 * Xff * (+92)
18:29:16 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133051&oldid=133050 * Xff * (+127) /* CPU computer idea thing */
18:30:50 <ais523> b_jonas: I hate that those are equivalent
18:30:54 <ais523> they conceptually feel so different
18:32:20 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133052&oldid=133051 * Xff * (+66) /* CPU computer idea thing */
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18:33:38 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133053&oldid=133052 * Xff * (+41)
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19:07:04 <fizzie> Random stat: looking at last full week, out of the 3670822 HTTP requests to the wiki server, 1432542 (39.0%) were by Claudebot, 554884 (15.1%) by Bytespider, 151555 (4.1%) by Amazonbot, 85642 (2.3%) by GPTBot and 49429 (1.3%) by FriendlyCrawler; together those 5 AI trainers made up 2274052 (61.9%) requests.
19:07:21 <fizzie> Didn't count the 59635 (1.6%) and 25233 (0.7%) requests from Bingbot and Googlebot, respectively, since it's harder to split out AI and "traditional" crawling from those.
19:08:06 <fizzie> (Trying to ingest nginx logs into Loki, for graphing, to figure out that once-every-two-hours traffic spike, but got distracted.)
19:14:24 <fizzie> There's also an interesting user agent of "NotLoggedIn/MediaWiki::Butt", which is apparently a Ruby framework for MediaWiki API access, which -- once per day, exactly at UTC midnight -- does ~190 requests to /w/api.php from a random Yandex Cloud IP.
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19:24:46 <ais523> I have a suspicion that training from the Esolang wiki may end up decreasing the quality of AIs rather than increasing it :-D
19:30:17 <fizzie> Actually, out of the 2269646 AI training requests with easily classifiable URLs (I didn't used to record the vhost), 2161186 (95.2%) were from hack.esolangs.org/repo aka the HackEso repository; 98237 (4.3%) were from the wiki, and the remaining 10223 (0.5%) from this channel's logs.
19:30:32 <fizzie> Not that training on the HackEso repository is going to help any more than training on the wiki would.
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19:53:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133054&oldid=132682 * Ais523 * (+298) /* Tacit programming */ concatenative?
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20:25:10 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133055&oldid=133038 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* External Resources */ Remove s
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20:31:03 <esolangs> [[Eod]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133056&oldid=116048 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) Lowercase, grammar, categories
20:32:50 <esolangs> [[FakeScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133057&oldid=108076 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) Categories
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20:33:24 <esolangs> [[FakeScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133058&oldid=133057 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) See also
20:34:00 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133059&oldid=132996 * Zzo38 * (+1864)
20:35:16 <esolangs> [[Extension]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133060&oldid=119875 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
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22:03:21 <fizzie> Now that's just real bizarre... got one of those hack.esolangs.org traffic spikes again, but it didn't get attributed to any known bot. So went to check the logs by manual inspection, and the user agents are like just a collection of "normal" browser except they're 100% lowercase, unlike what actual browsers do.
22:09:40 <fizzie> And the traffic is from 175 different addresses, belonging to random hosting companies (EGIHosting, Neptune-Networks-LLC, SpdNet, Bite Lietuva, 20 Point Networks, Intelligence Network Online), and the pages are just random /repo/file, /repo/comparison, /repo/shortlog, /repo/annotate paths.
22:12:48 <fizzie> Doesn't really feel like a DOS attempt because it's still pretty modest traffic (~10 qps). I guess it could be an AI scraper that just doesn't want to advertise what they're doing. But pretty weird.
22:15:41 <fizzie> Besides if they _really_ didn't want to look obvious, presumably they wouldn't do that all-lowercase weirdness.
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23:48:15 <esolangs> [[XGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133061&oldid=133059 * Zzo38 * (+749)
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00:44:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133062&oldid=133031 * PrySigneToFry * (+267)
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01:02:52 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133063&oldid=132975 * TheCanon2 * (+484) Added a Parity calculator
01:05:53 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133064&oldid=133063 * TheCanon2 * (+39) Added detail
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01:28:38 <esolangs> [[ALWCIDFEC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133065&oldid=128968 * Timothytomato * (+7) link to disambugation page is no good
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01:42:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:ALWCIDFEC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133066&oldid=105970 * Timothytomato * (+300) is it really turing complete bro?
01:42:49 <esolangs> [[ALWCIDFEC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133067&oldid=133065 * Timothytomato * (-29)
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01:58:06 <salpynx> recent comment on ALWCIDFEC about TCness got me thinking about 3 cell bf. I think that's been conclusively proven TC, but maybe that proof is not obviously linked?
01:58:23 <salpynx> Just looking at the specs, it seems like it's almost trivially TC when compared to 3 register Portable Minsky Machine Notation, which can directly implement a 2 reg Minsky machine.
01:58:34 <salpynx> A while back I wanted to prove the 2 register PMMN _wasn't_ TC, but came up with a sketch proof that is was, and then stalled because that didn't seem very interesting.... but wouldn't that be equivalent to proving 2 cell bf Turing complete, which _is_ interesting?
02:00:21 <salpynx> ... what is the current state of knowledge about 2 cell bf TCness?
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02:10:55 <salpynx> the complicated bit was that with only two registers and while loops you wouldn't neccesarily be able to exit all loops, but there seems to be a way to rearrange things so that you keep going deeoer into loops, and can just hang there once all computation is complete, with that kind of halt-on-tight-loop convention mentioned here recently
02:21:49 <salpynx> clarification: you can't necessarily exit the current loop without losing current data, but you can still enter loops, so different halt conditions can be distinguished by different tight inner loops
02:26:58 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133068&oldid=132883 * Timothytomato * (+62) BCT is basically godel numbering
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03:02:53 <korvo> I proved that the stationary distribution of Hydra and Antihydra is not just 50/50 even/odd, but evenly distributed mod 4, mod 8, etc. This makes it even more probvious to me that they don't halt.
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09:35:14 <tromp> BF can be made prefix-free by adding an unmatched ] to end the program
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11:55:20 <jjrubes> oh hey, i'm looking for an admin for esolangs.org
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12:22:23 <int-e> Is it about the wiki or something else?
12:24:22 <int-e> (I'm not an admin, but I'm trying to figure out whom to possibly ping :) )
12:24:49 <jjrubes> it's about getting something removed from a wiki page and its history
12:25:28 <int-e> Okay ais523 helps the most with that. And has a tendency to pop in here if his name is mentioned, so maybe that works this time too.
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12:30:09 <b_jonas> tromp: yes, that works too
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12:31:01 <tromp> what else makes it prefix free?
12:31:47 <tromp> i think only ] can serve as endmarker
12:32:30 <int-e> you can add a dedicated end symbol... which is of course more expensive if you count bits
12:34:57 <int-e> That extra ] is the simplest choice.
12:36:29 <int-e> I think I've written at least one BF interpreter that used that trick for terminating the program; it had a recursive function that executed everything from right after a [ to the matching ] once.
12:37:24 <int-e> (It's that, or I saw it in somebody else's interpreter. Quite possibly both.)
12:38:35 <int-e> But for making things prefix-free there's always the generic encoded length + string apprach with its many different encodings of natural numbers.
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17:07:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133070&oldid=132093 * Ais523 * (+6) /* Tests */ just making sure the wiki is still working, we haven't had any edits for a while
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18:03:32 <wryl> Anybody have any literature revolving around encoding labeled, directed graphs in unlabeled, undirected graphs?
18:04:48 <b_jonas> wryl: are the former vertex-labeled?
18:05:17 <wryl> Can either be vertex or edge labeled.
18:05:32 <wryl> But I'm working with vertex labeled.
18:06:08 <b_jonas> Hajnal Péter's book explains encoding unlabelled digraphs into labelled digraphs, for the purpose of showing that graph isomorphism is equally hard for them, but I don't think it has labelled
18:06:28 <b_jonas> perhaps the esowiki's article on Eodermdrone gives a hint?
18:07:13 <wryl> I've been rolling it around in my head for a bit. The criteria is that it needs to be able to be pattern-matched on.
18:08:16 <wryl> So I give you a list of variables, like `a b, b c, c d, d a`, and that defines a pattern that detects rings of 4 vertices.
18:09:16 <wryl> I imagine you could form vertex labels via taking complete graphs and using them in place of a labeled vertex.
18:10:49 <wryl> So `a b, a c, a d, b c, b d, c d`.
18:11:10 <wryl> Would match a complete graph of 4.
18:11:14 <b_jonas> what I would recommend is to turn each vertex of the old graph into a wheel, and each arc to a 3-path from an outer node of the wheel to an outer node of the second, plus an extra edge dangling from the middle node of that 3-path going to a 1-degree node, and with no outer node of the wheels reused. to decode, you find all the triangles in the new graph, these can only occurr inside the wheels, and get
18:11:20 <b_jonas> the connected components of these triangles which give the wheels. to encode the vertex labeling, make the wheel have more nodes than necessary.
18:13:10 <b_jonas> this should let you pattern-match on the new graph locally, since any two triangles that share a node must be in the same wheel and there's always two of these connecting any two outer nodes of the wheel, and also any node with degree 2 must be part of what an arc got turned to
18:14:53 <wryl> Need to chew on that.. thanks! That's certainly different than what I was thinking, trying to visualize it.
18:15:40 <b_jonas> it's not the only possible metho
18:16:14 <b_jonas> you can devise different ones depending on your requirements
18:17:05 <wryl> Yours is pretty interesting, though.
18:17:51 <ais523> oh, jjrubes isn't here
18:17:59 <ais523> I can help with that, but not if I don't know what the requested action is
18:23:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:ALWCIDFEC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133071&oldid=133066 * Ais523 * (+343) proved TC via 3-cell brainfuck
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18:23:35 <esolangs> [[3-cell brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133072 * Ais523 * (+60) Redirected page to [[Collatz function#Reduction to 3-cell brainfuck]]
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18:27:43 <esolangs> [[ALWCIDFEC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133073&oldid=133067 * Ais523 * (+429) TCness proof, because one was requested in chat
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19:53:23 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133074&oldid=132990 * Ractangle * (+42) /* Programlangs that i know how to program in them */
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20:12:03 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133075&oldid=133064 * TheCanon2 * (-6) Found shorter way to write XKCD Random Number
20:13:08 <esolangs> [[Fun 2 code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133076&oldid=133069 * Tommyaweosme * (+666)
20:13:52 <esolangs> [[Fun 2 code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133077&oldid=133076 * Tommyaweosme * (-33) /* Python interpreter */ tiny fixes
20:14:08 <esolangs> [[Fun 2 code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133078&oldid=133077 * Tommyaweosme * (-2) it was implemented thank you
20:16:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133079&oldid=133070 * Tommyaweosme * (+42) not related to esolangs
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21:14:31 <salpynx> Is 2 cell bf known to be TC or not?
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21:21:05 <int-e> b_jonas: I've picked up this project again... it kind of works (it can make arbitrary shapes, but it still produces some garbage after switching between them... probably need to redo some of the synchronization logic): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/true-mam-wip.png https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/true-mam-wip-wire.png (proportioned a bit like an iceberg)
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21:24:22 <int-e> "arbitrary shapes" -- I have not tested this exhaustively. I made a rocket and two other tricky shapes, along with some simple ones. I mostly rely on the fact that the data in the huge ROM is machine generated.
21:26:26 <b_jonas> int-e: you want this true MAM to be strictly synchronized too? that'll be hard
21:27:08 <b_jonas> at what nominal and effective fps does it run?
21:27:49 <int-e> 60 for both, it's still below 10ms per tick for me
21:30:43 <int-e> b_jonas: It's not as bad as you may think; the recipes are fairly uniform
21:32:21 <wryl> int-e: What is this?
21:32:27 <int-e> I was surprised to find all the resources nearby
21:33:05 <int-e> wryl: a shapez.io factory, more or less automated to produce any possible shape that can be made in the game.
21:34:03 <wryl> salpynx: 2-counter automata are TC provided the counters are unbounded, so if your cells are unbounded, then most likely.
21:34:09 <int-e> something I've been thinking about off and on for a year now I guess... it's tedious to finish these things.
21:36:11 <int-e> 2 cell brainfuck is certainly not TC, as it effectively has only one counter because a cell need to be zero to exit a loop.
21:36:51 <wryl> Ah, I forgot about that, you'd need 3 cells..
21:37:20 <int-e> IIRC oerjan actually proved 3 cell BF to be TC? I may be misremembering.
21:40:12 <int-e> It only becomes easy at 4 cells I think, since then you have a cell that can be zero, another cell that can manage a program state for control flow, plus two counters.
21:41:52 <wryl> "We gave you a rock hammer instead of a toothpick."
21:42:12 <int-e> here's a brain to perform surgery on
21:46:32 <ais523> there's a TCness proof for 3 cell brainfuck on the wiki, although it's in the article about Collatz functions
21:48:24 <ais523> I added a redirect to it at https://esolangs.org/wiki/3_cell_brainfuck recently to make it easier to find
21:48:37 <ais523> [[e:3-cell brainfuck]]
21:48:43 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/3-cell_brainfuck
21:49:10 <int-e> Heh does "e:" work on the wiki?
21:49:26 <ais523> I don't think so, it's something I set up for my IRC client
21:49:42 <ais523> I link to Esolang often enough that I've had it set up for ages
21:49:47 <int-e> that would've been my second guess.
21:50:24 <ais523> but I don't use it often enough to motivate me to fix the bug where it doesn't work if you type space rather than underscore :-)
21:51:32 <int-e> And... that reduction was added by oerjan in 2011. :)
21:51:37 <ais523> proving that 2-cell BF is nontrivial – Minsky machines can be written to exit loops only when the cell is zero – but the problem is that to read the remainder of a divmod instruction you need multiple places where the loop can end
21:51:49 <ais523> * proving that 2-cell BF is Turing-incomplete
21:52:11 <ais523> it'd work if the loops terminated if the cell was less than some fixed integer, for fairly small integers (I think 3 might work)
21:52:21 <ais523> even if the cells weren't allowed to go negative
21:57:18 <int-e> I can believe 3, yeah. Possibly even 2, just enough to maintain 2 counters n, m, as 4^n 3^m and enable division by 2 and by 3 (noting that 4^n = 1 (mod 3)), but I'm not too sure about the control flow afterwards.
21:57:38 <ais523> oh, I meant 3 as in loop halts on 0, 1, 2
21:57:54 <ais523> thus letting you divide by 2 and 3 and still remember the remainder
21:57:56 <salpynx> thanks ais523 for adding that link, I knew 3cell bf was TC, but the proof was hard to find. I now see it _is_ linked from the bf article, but it's a big article
21:58:13 <ais523> but you're right, there are tricks to ensure the remainder is always 0 or 1
21:58:15 <int-e> ais523: what I'm saying is that you don't necessarily need all the remainders
21:58:43 <ais523> I know I've thought about that for TCness proofs before, but can't remember the last time I used it
21:58:50 <ais523> was it in the Netrunner TCness proof? or did that not need it?
21:59:09 <salpynx> I was thinking that you don't neccesarily need to exit all your loops to perform arbitrary computation, so 2 cell bf could be TC, with that caveat.
21:59:41 <salpynx> I was trying to show that 2 register PMMN wasn't TC back in 2022, but decided it was TC, with that trick
21:59:59 <ais523> a loop either gets exited eventually or only affects a finite portion of the program at the start
22:00:30 <ais523> so in a language that can initialize itself to an arbitrary state without loops (like BF can), a loop either gets exited or it doesn't contribute to the program's TCness
22:00:43 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Portable_Minsky_Machine_Notation
22:00:57 <ais523> it's Minsky machines but with while rather than goto
22:01:03 <salpynx> if all possible end states are some internal loop you can have some finite number of end state classes, and one register can be unbounded at the 'end'
22:02:18 <int-e> PMMN has richer control flow than brainfuck
22:02:19 <ais523> I guess 2-cell BF might be TC if you allowed an infinite program
22:02:28 <salpynx> ais523, My hypothesis is either 2 reg PMMN is not TC, or 2 cell bf is TC. One of those is true. And I think they are both TC, with a trick.
22:02:30 <ais523> the ({})%-1 notation from BF Joust might be interesting
22:03:53 <ais523> salpynx: so the fundamental problem in proving 2-cell BF TC is that if you have a division loop, you need to know the remainder in advance, otherwise you can go past 0 by mistake if you get the remainder wrong
22:04:21 <ais523> that doesn't quite disprove the TCness of the language but it makes it seem unlikely
22:05:14 <ais523> (this is assuming that you need to record the result of the division somewhere, so you can't use the other cell as a way to escape an inner loop)
22:07:03 <salpynx> I have some code that decrements virtual prime encoded registers in one of the two registers, which I think works correctly, IIRC the only problem was exiting loops (as int-e mentioned)
22:07:51 <salpynx> I'll have to dust the code off and check whether it handles that division loop problem
22:07:55 <int-e> Well, 2-reg PMMN is TC, it can simulate a 2-reg Minsky machine with arbitrary state transitions.
22:08:33 <ais523> PMMN has if statements, which I think help in this situation?
22:09:27 <int-e> They allow you to structure your program as one while loop with a big switch() inside.
22:09:31 <salpynx> The point I wanted to make was that n reg PMMN can simulate n-1 Minsky Machines trivially,
22:10:15 <salpynx> One PMMN reg is needed to basically convert the while loops to arbitrary jumps. The if/else doesn't really help
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22:10:56 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe I'm missing something, let me think.
22:11:03 <salpynx> hmm.. int-e we seem to be disagreeing on that.
22:12:38 <salpynx> It was a while ago that I was working on this, I'm just picking it back up, so I could be mistaken also. Maybe I do need to formalise my idea
22:13:03 <ais523> oh! I think 2-register PMMN can do Spiral Rise
22:13:44 <ais523> because you can, when dividing one counter, conditionally add to the other
22:13:55 <ais523> although, maybe it can't because Spiral Rise needs to track two pieces of information between states
22:14:00 <ais523> err, between times things go zero
22:14:36 <wryl> I think I remember you working on this, salpynx.
22:14:59 <ais523> I don't think it does Spiral Rise, exactly – but it can do the "add the remainder of x onto y" trick
22:15:27 <int-e> Oh you have to add another level of the same trick. A single register can store both the counters and the state as well, say 2^a * 3^b * N + s, a and b being the counters and s being the state. Then your main loop can divide by N with remainder (tracked in control flow), then inside you can divide the counter by 2 or 3 if you're decrementing, and then you can make another look to multiply by N...
22:15:33 <int-e> ...and add the next state, and still exit the division loop. And then copy the new register back and repeat from the start.
22:16:53 <ais523> so my problem is that I can see how you can track the state in the remainder, and I can see how you can track the state in the control flow, but I can't easily see a way to take a state that's encoded in the remainder and use it to affect the control flow (rather than the remainder)
22:17:38 <int-e> you can nest the conditionals
22:17:46 <ais523> because, at the point where you leave a while loop, the tested counter is 0 and the control flow is always in the same place, so the only place you have to store data is the remainder of the other counter
22:17:59 <ais523> (and the counter itself, obviously)
22:18:24 <ais523> oh right, you just get the inner conditional to multiply/divide the other counter
22:21:06 <salpynx> I have this comment in my code: The only way to break out of the outer while() which contains inner while()s acting as v.reg if()s is to have both physical registers zeroed. One register must be 0 to break out of the last inner while (testing a v.reg), and the other must be zero to break out of the main program loop, indicating a HALT condition has been reached.
22:22:05 <ais523> I suspect the pattern that makes PMMN work is along the lines of an outer while that contains if/else statements, and all the inner whiles are inside else blocks
22:22:32 <salpynx> The not being able to break out of the outher while seemed like a problem, but it seems like you can just branch inwards, and never leave the other loops, but still complete useful computation
22:23:25 <ais523> if the program is finitely long there's a limit to how much you can branch inwards
22:25:21 <salpynx> ais523, I was worried about that, there are only finite many of these internal looped end states that can be in the source... I thought the saving aspect would be the remaining required state could be encoded in virtual registers, which is unbounded.
22:26:26 <ais523> ah, so the idea is that you branch inwards to some extent and encode state into the other register while you're doing it
22:27:08 <ais523> I think the problem there is the control flow while registers have large valeus
22:27:09 <salpynx> Well this has convinced that I should probably keep going and clarify things, at least make my ideas clear, or show I've missed something
22:27:41 <ais523> like, in any TC calculation there will be a point where both registers have values much larger than the length of your program
22:28:23 <ais523> and once such a point is reached, you end up funneling into an innermost loop and getting stuck there until one register has entirely drained into the other – which usually means knowing what the remainders are at that point
22:28:55 <ais523> so I guess the innermost loop has to be a simple "add (an integer multiple of) one register to the other, without dividing"?
22:28:55 <salpynx> I was using prime encoded virtual registers, so you get a finite number of those that you encode into your program, and each is unbounded.
22:29:19 <ais523> I am not convinced the registers are readable
22:30:37 <salpynx> This is some of my old code which tests vreg incs and decs using 2 reg PMMN: https://github.com/hornc/py_program_machine/blob/master/tests/test_2register.py
22:32:11 <salpynx> I'm going to go through and create some more usable vreg helpers... I thought implementing the Ackermann function would force me to make sure everything works. (That might be stupidly ambitious)
22:33:39 <ais523> OK, so the idea is that you are purely doing inc and dec, not inc and dec-and-test, so you do know the remainder because you know you aren't decrementing 0
22:34:39 <ais523> but I cannot see a way to run this conditionally
22:34:51 <salpynx> .. I'm hoping there is a way to do dec-and-test, looking at it a fresh I noticed that wasn't demonstrated clearly, so I need to do that
22:35:07 <ais523> based on the value of a vreg
22:35:53 <ais523> the test is the hard part
22:36:30 <ais523> I suspect that if it's possible at all, it will involve a loop that swaps the value between the two counters on every iteration
22:36:42 <salpynx> I think L243 is supposed to show a virtual test occurring... but I agree it's not clear, so I need to double check it
22:37:10 <ais523> oh, you are using if statements
22:37:33 <ais523> I was thinking about 2-cell BF rather than PMMN in the discussion above
22:37:47 <ais523> with if statements (and particularly else statements) it's much easier
22:38:47 <ais523> oh, the loop that swaps the value between two counters doesn't work because it would have nowhere to store the quotient
22:39:10 <salpynx> Maybe I am mixing my 2 cell bf and PMMN now, I wasn't when I wrote this code originally. The similarity between 2 cell bf and PMMN only just struck me recently.
22:44:32 <salpynx> Thanks all for the comments, it's given me the inspiration to think on this more and I'll try to clarify my work with some examples
22:48:09 <salpynx> My summary: Conventional take is that 2 reg PMMN is TC, and that 2 cell bf is not (primarily because it can't do if/else?).
22:49:25 <salpynx> if I think it's more complicated than that, I need to be clear about what I'm saying, and an explicit 2 reg PMMN TC proof wouldn't hurt regardless.
23:03:01 <int-e> Here's a prototype; it simulates a simple loop that moves one register to another, and you can see that it successfully converts 2^7 (7 in first register) to 3^7 (7 in second register): https://paste.debian.net/1323292/
23:04:29 <ais523> ooh, postdecrement operator
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23:12:09 <int-e> It's relatively easy to modify this such that it can actually terminate; just move the final inc(a) to where the new a is computed. It's not obvious to me whether you can exfiltrate more than finitely many values from such a computation.
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23:44:32 <int-e> Anyway that PMMN construction makes heavy use of if-then-else, and 2-cell BF doesn't give you an `else`; it hardly even gives you an 'if' (since you can only exit blocks when the current cell is 0)
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05:08:47 <esolangs> [[Burgercamp+/burgercamp+-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133087&oldid=133043 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+132) See also, categories
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20:05:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:My github profile read me.png]]"
20:06:07 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133125&oldid=133094 * Ractangle * (+40) /* See Also */
20:06:46 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133126&oldid=133125 * Ractangle * (+0) /* See Also */
20:07:58 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133127&oldid=133126 * Ractangle * (+22) /* See Also */
20:23:29 <esolangs> [[2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133128&oldid=133123 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) Template, categories
20:24:11 <esolangs> [[2d]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133129&oldid=130814 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Distinguish confusion
20:26:25 <esolangs> [[Pass a symbol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133130&oldid=133102 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) Lowercase, category
20:30:00 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133131&oldid=129563 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) Categories
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23:52:37 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133134&oldid=133075 * TheCanon2 * (+477) Added more information and detail about how function definitions work, added a program to demonstrate the logic, and removed the Self-interpreter for no longer being compliant.
23:53:41 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133135&oldid=133134 * TheCanon2 * (+3) Forgot to add the actual function that executes.
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00:02:18 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133136&oldid=133135 * TheCanon2 * (+66) Program has a mistake and I dont care to actually fix it
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00:27:21 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133137&oldid=132851 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
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01:00:15 <esolangs> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133140&oldid=132911 * TheCanon2 * (+221) Added another interpreter.
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02:28:22 <esolangs> [[H]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133141 * TheCanon2 * (+1759) Created a new esolang H
02:34:00 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133142&oldid=133141 * TheCanon2 * (+11) Fixed formatting error
02:35:52 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133143&oldid=132807 * TheCanon2 * (+20) Added H to my page
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03:14:53 <b_jonas> in M:tG, can you bound the amount of hidden information revealed to a player at any point of the game, and the amount of hidden information that the player makes in their decisions, with a bound that any other player can compute? ideally a small enough bound? eg. if I look at a card, I learn only as many bits as needed to describe what printing it is, and there are only a few ten thousand available in
03:14:59 <b_jonas> any format. if I search my deck with a Tutor then I learn the order of much more cards, but other players will still know how many cards there are in my deck, so the can bound how much information I learn, and then my decision for which card I pick is a choice from one plus as many possibilities as there are cards in the deck. I'm asking this as a simplified theoretical model for when I play M:tG on
03:15:05 <b_jonas> computer through a trusted third party simulating the game state and rules, can this be designed such that the sizes of (encrypted) messages sent between me and the third party don't leak information in theory.
03:20:55 <b_jonas> there are some tricky cases like
03:21:01 <b_jonas> `card-by-name choice of damnations
03:21:04 <HackEso> Choice of Damnations \ 5B \ Sorcery -- Arcane \ Target opponent chooses a number. You may have that player lose that much life. If you don't, that player sacrifices all but that many permanents. \ SOK-R
03:23:26 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Squee's Revenge
03:23:28 <HackEso> Squee's Revenge \ 1UR \ Sorcery \ Choose a number. Flip a coin that many times or until you lose a flip, whichever comes first. If you win all the flips, draw two cards for each flip. \ AP-U
03:24:45 <b_jonas> Wheel of Misfortune is another one
03:26:11 <b_jonas> ok, I'm not sure if this is possible in theory then. the practical question is if you can give a small enough upper bound that works in almost all cases except it may fail for some weird ones like these cards when a player makes an unusual choice, rather than in theory having a bound but it requiring messages longer than the size of the universe
03:27:08 <zzo38> Some information is going to be known by both players anyways (you could have a separate part of the message, perhaps with a HMAC, in this case), although other than that I don't know.
03:27:53 <zzo38> When searching your library, most effects you will shuffle the library afterward anyways, but the card you pick is just one in however many cards there are; this is also true if you have to select a card from your hand without showing your opponent, etc.
03:29:13 <b_jonas> or at least, is there a reasonable bound in cases before the simulation breaks down anyway because you've created a huge game state that's hard to track, like an amount of tokens larger than the size of the universe
03:32:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: shuffle after search => yes, but there are cases like Spin into Myth when the opponent may have rearranged your library in an order that they know but you don't, and then you learn that order when you search, before you shuffle
03:34:06 <b_jonas> and IIRC there were even some weird cases when you do something with your library while there are tokens or copies of spells in it before those tokens evaporate
03:38:16 <b_jonas> ok, in fact I should ask, is that possible?
03:39:19 <b_jonas> you can have the cost of a mana ability sacrifice a token copy of Darksteel Colossus to get a token into your library while you pay for something, but that's not enough
03:41:56 <b_jonas> you can also use Deranged Assistant to mill a card as the cost of a mana ability, and that can mill such a token.
03:42:32 <b_jonas> but was there some way to shuffle or reorder your library while there are still tokens in it?
03:42:54 <zzo38> Does "draw a card" skip over anything that isn't a card, or will you draw whatever object is in the top of your library even if it is not a card? Similar with mill; it specifically says cards, but does not specifically say that objects other than cards do not count, so it is unclear
03:44:01 <b_jonas> I guess there probably wasn't, because most of the time it would run into the limit that you would have to learn hidden info while the game is in a state that may need to be reverted because a spell can't be cast
03:44:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it still acts on anything in your library that isn't a card
03:47:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: 608.2j would be the relevant rule, but I'm not sure it covers this
03:48:35 <b_jonas> hmm no, that rule probably doesn't apply, it only mentions "changed characteristics", being a card or not isn't a characteristics, and it doesn't change here
03:48:58 <b_jonas> I don't know the answer then
03:49:08 <b_jonas> `card-by-name darksteel colossus
03:49:10 <HackEso> Darksteel Colossus \ 11 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 11/11 \ Trample, indestructible \ If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead. \ DST-R, M10-M
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04:07:49 <b_jonas> this is annoying, apparently rule 121.8, which hides cards while you're in a revertable state trying to cast a spell, is too narrowly worded and doesn't cover Deranged Assistant, so you reveal the milled card. why didn't they amend that rule?
04:09:54 <b_jonas> it gets worse if that spell is Disentomb which might or might not be possible to cast depending on what you milled
04:14:29 <b_jonas> what I wanted to ask is, if during casting a spell you pay for it by saccing a token copy of Darksteel Colossus to Phyrexian Tower so it immediately goes into your library, then is it public information what position in the library the token is, but it appears this might not cause an observable difference, because Deranged Assistant reveals the card you milled anyway, and in most other cases the
04:14:35 <b_jonas> position of the token doesn't matter before it evaporates
04:25:38 <b_jonas> 601.2 says that during casting a spell, you pay costs late enough, after choosing targets and other choices, that what the mill reveals won't be able to influence your choices, you can't target a card in the graveyard that Phy Tower moved there. and I think, but I'm not sure, that if you sac a permanent to Phy Tower that's a target of the spell, you can still finish casting the spell, that the target is
04:25:44 <b_jonas> invalid isn't checked again until the spell resolved
04:25:49 <b_jonas> heck, I'm confused by all these rules and I'm probably getting a lot wrong.
04:49:55 <esolangs> [[H]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133144&oldid=133142 * TheCanon2 * (+354) Added a Hello World program
04:50:47 <b_jonas> hmm no that's probably not true and I just confused myself
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05:14:08 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133145&oldid=133117 * Unname4798 * (+18)
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05:16:26 <esolangs> [[Translated JS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133147 * Unname4798 * (+2153) Created page with "1. Take [[Arithmetic]] interpreter in JS: <pre> function interpret(a){const e=a.split`\n`;let o="",st=x=p=c=P=C=+o,r,v;for(const n of e){if((!++C)||n==[])continue;if(st==0&&n=="==Begin Exam "+ ++x+"=="&&++st&&!(v={},p=c=P=+!v))continue;if(st==1&&(m=n.match(/^([
05:16:28 <b_jonas> I'll have to read 601.2 carefully to see how this works
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10:28:51 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133148&oldid=133146 * Unname4798 * (+18)
10:33:08 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133149&oldid=133148 * Unname4798 * (-18)
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11:16:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Laptop-Salad * New user account
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12:07:41 <wib_jonas> oh this is great! in Windows 10, I have a batch file where one line says `>a.txt .\animal.exe` . the batch file executes the right thing and redirects to the right place, but it echoes the command as `.\animal.exe1>a.txt` which is not actually valid cmd syntax
12:18:36 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133150&oldid=133120 * Xff * (+155) /* operations/ISA */
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13:25:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:H]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133152&oldid=113660 * Rico040 * (+168) /* Whether this esolang is case sensitive or not */
13:30:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Xff * uploaded "[[File:Ascii table-chart.png]]"
13:33:04 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133154&oldid=133151 * Xff * (+729)
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13:50:28 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133155&oldid=133154 * Xff * (+326)
13:52:09 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133156&oldid=133155 * Xff * (+7) /* idea 3 */
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14:13:33 <ais523> b_jonas: there are people working on a deck that can do busy beaver amounts of damage, but not infinite damage – and Wheel of Fortune can be comboed with Pact of Intervention to gain an arbitrary amount of life
14:13:44 <ais523> which means that, theoretically, if you're doing that combo it's optimal to name a busy beaver number
14:14:29 <ais523> (also that ping of me was pointless, I don't get pinged in the logs so I will notice the conversation before I notice the ping)
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14:15:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133157&oldid=133121 * Ais523 * (-256) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133121|133121]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) please don't confuse new users
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14:18:53 <int-e> ais523: I didn't think it would ping you... but my impression is that it sometimes catches your eyes when reading logs
14:20:47 <ais523> I more commonly read the content of the messages than the pings
14:21:19 <ais523> b_jonas: I think there is one way to make an arbitrary amount of secret information in Magic: make arbitrarily many token copies of A Killer Among Us
14:22:56 <ais523> that card was printed pretty recently, so there may have been a limit on secret information until this year (I don't know the exact release date offhand but the card is copyright 2024)
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14:31:56 <wib_jonas> ais523: interesting, but that isn't a counterexample to what I was asking. it will be public information how many of those tokens I create, so from just public information you can compute an upper bound on the amount of secret information.
14:32:11 <wib_jonas> also... when did they rename tribal to kindred?
14:32:23 <ais523> MH3, the most recently printed set
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14:32:38 <wib_jonas> that's unrelated to this question, I'm just wondering. I had heard that battle is now a card type, but this is new
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14:33:05 <ais523> totem armor was also renamed to umbra armor at the same time
14:38:42 <ais523> it is still very awkward that "tribal" (formerly) / "kindred" (nowadays) is technically a noun in M:tG grammar despite being an adjective in English
14:41:26 <wib_jonas> meanwhile, I'm writing a program to count how many different polyminos there are. for ordinary polyminos, depending on what rotations or mirrorings you distinguish, you have https://oeis.org/A000105 https://oeis.org/A000988 https://oeis.org/A056780 https://oeis.org/A056783 https://oeis.org/A151522 https://oeis.org/A151525 https://oeis.org/A182645 .
14:41:26 <wib_jonas> confusingly the listings in OEIS for first two show the number of polyminos made of 0 cells, the listings for the rest don't, or something like that.
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14:43:50 <esolangs> [[2dL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133158 * Xff * (+3033) Created page with "'''2dL''' is a 2d representation of lambda calculus.its no exactly lambda calculus but.. also it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]] == overview == memory is stored in two stacks. on stack holds functions(the '''function stack''') and another holds the input of these function(the
14:44:43 <wib_jonas> ais523: I think M:tG uses those words (and most other words meaning a characteristic) as both noun and adjective in rules text: "creature" as noun when it means a permanent, or "creature card" or "creature spell" as noun phrase (so "creature" in that is an adjective) when it's an object in another zone
14:45:08 <wib_jonas> ok, not most other words meaning a characteristic, "red" isn't used as a noun to mean red permanents
14:48:10 <wib_jonas> but many subtypes are used as both: https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/8/benalish-commander "number of Soldiers you control" vs https://scryfall.com/card/apc/9/enlistment-officer "all Soldier cards revealed this way"
14:49:12 <wib_jonas> and they do this even when the word for the type name is usually an adjective in ordinary English, see Boldwyr Imitator
14:53:40 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133159&oldid=133158 * Gggfr * (+46)
14:55:32 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133160&oldid=133159 * Gggfr * (+0)
14:55:48 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133161 * Tommyaweosme * (+676) Created page with "{{stub}} A '''markov algorithm''' (or markov chain) is a form of artificial intelligence used in various fields of science, including programming. == How it works == One term has a chance to go to other terms, but the chances are different, and the path it
14:56:48 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133162&oldid=133161 * Tommyaweosme * (+6) listify
14:57:25 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133163&oldid=132948 * Tommyaweosme * (+90)
15:01:41 <ais523> wib_jonas: I am not 100% sure on the name that people who study grammar give to it, but a noun can be used like an adjective in some circumstances and I think that's one of them
15:01:58 <ais523> as in "Soldier creature" / "Soldier card"
15:03:33 <ais523> or indeed "Magic card", when referring to the game of Magic: the Gathering (which is a noun) – it doesn't mean "a card that is magic" but "a card that is part of the game Magic"
15:16:08 <APic> Or like the Soldier Ant inside the epic NetHack4 ♥
15:22:36 <ais523> there is a surprising amount of overlap between NetHack players and esoprogrammers
15:22:46 <ais523> (to the extent that I am mildly upset that NetHack isn't, AFAICT, Turing-complete)
15:23:08 <ais523> I would probably make it TC if I could think of a way to do it without arousing suspicions
15:26:35 <APic> ais523: As a DevTeam-Member, You could easily make it so. 😌
15:27:47 <ais523> it would have to make sense with the rest of the game
15:30:07 <APic> Then You could at least add a small Toering-Branch 😉
15:30:59 <ais523> I wonder if the Sokoban branch counts as being enough to make it PSPACE-complete – my guess is no, the PSPACE-completeness is the complexity for a Sokoban *solver*, not the program that enforces the ruels
15:31:32 <esolangs> [[IBC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133164&oldid=77563 * TheCanon2 * (+250) Added a Hello, World! program
15:32:08 * APic would really, really like a Sokoban-Solver inside the Game 😉
15:32:16 <APic> Maybe as a Reward for killing Vlad or something
15:32:32 <APic> Without the Wiki-Spoiler, i totally suck at Sokoban
15:34:50 <ais523> well, vanilla NetHack has only 8 Sokoban levels
15:35:03 <ais523> so it isn't too bad to just memorize all of them
15:35:37 <ais523> I'm actually fairly good at Sokoban – about 10 years ago I was seriously ill and took a few months to recover, and one of the things I did to pass the time was to play Sokoban levels
15:35:53 <ais523> but they still quite frequently stumped me for ages
15:37:31 * APic has almost no Brain-Memory left
15:37:54 <APic> But i have my electronic Devices with me almost all the Time, so i can live with that very fine.
15:42:31 <korvo> Something's very quirky about Sokoban. I think it's the necessary backwards reasoning; one has to maintain a list of partial goals at all times. Rush Hour's got the same issue.
15:43:23 <korvo> Makes me wonder if there's a lesson about PSPACE-complete puzzles. Chess also comes apart this way, with "endgame" analysis.
15:54:22 <cpressey> A program that takes a Sokoban configuration, and a list of moves, as input, and outputs T if the moves solve the puzzle, or F otherwise.
15:56:15 <int-e> Sokoban solvability is in PSPACE though.
15:56:23 <int-e> Err PSPACE-complete.
15:56:44 <int-e> The game logic itself is firmly in P.
15:58:17 * int-e probably has more hours in Sokoban than in any other game. Though most of that was spent optimizing known solutions instead of solving new puzzles.
16:01:21 <int-e> (This means that optimal solutions can have exponential length. Which changes the meaning of P between verifier (input includes a solution) and solver)
16:06:56 <wib_jonas> you believe nethack is not yet Turing-complete, and would make it Turing-complete if it made sense in the game. that's reasonable, yes.
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16:09:23 <int-e> I guess I could get back into Sokoban too if I tried... managed to untangle this one first try: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/soko.png
16:10:11 * cpressey tries to imagine a Sokoban board where the optimal solution has length exponential in the size of the board
16:11:15 <cpressey> I can't see it but I'm not immediately skeptical of it either
16:11:53 <cpressey> I used to have a Sokoban game on a candybar phone. I solved all the levels except one. I've been meaning to find that phone (or that level), write a Sokoban solver, have it tell me what the solution is
16:25:40 <esolangs> [[Theoretica]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133165&oldid=52549 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) Categories
16:28:56 <esolangs> [[Braingolf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133166&oldid=51911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) Categories
16:30:30 <APic> The mazzoo once suggested me to install Pixel Dungeon on my Phone.
16:30:41 <APic> But i still liked and like NetHack4 much, much better.
16:30:49 <APic> Pixel Dungeon even has multiple different Keys.
16:30:59 <APic> We really, really do not need moar Keys than Skeleton Keys.
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17:12:46 <b_jonas> APic: you could play Spelunky 2, it only has three kinds of keys (ordinary key, gold key, skeleton key).
17:15:03 <APic> In NetHack, we have Credit Cards, Skeleton Keys and Lockpicks.
17:18:54 <b_jonas> APic: and the MKOT, and you STILL can't reliably disarm chest traps unless you're a rogue with the MKOT because the formula is stupid, even though this could be fixed with a one-line patch
17:19:36 <b_jonas> I'm still really annoyed about that
17:19:50 * APic loved always getting blasted when i used it. 😉
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17:58:16 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133167&oldid=132001 * B jonas * (+10) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */ ais523 has a point
18:10:40 <int-e> Okay this was fun to reconstruct (I have read the Sokoban is PSPACE paper but that was ages ago.) IIRC they bootstrapped everything from 2, (maybe 3) simple gadgets. 2 are enough to do binary counting: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sokoban-1-bit-counter.png
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18:12:22 <int-e> (the point here is that you have to use the entry (where the agent is) twice in order to exit below once; the first time you have to use the left path instead to prepare the right path to become usable)
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18:13:47 <int-e> So you can stack several of those and force an exponential solution length
18:15:59 <int-e> The two basic gadgets here are the usual one-way gadget (this has four of those) and a weird back-and-forth gadget (that can be used in one direction and reset by going back; but you can also add extra reset paths if you protect that by its own back-and-forth gadget)
18:17:37 <b_jonas> ok, so back to polyminos. for ordinary polyminos, depending on what rotations and mirrorings count as the same polymino: none => https://oeis.org/A001168 (2,6,19,63), central => https://oeis.org/A151522 (2,4,13,35,120), horz => https://oeis.org/A151525 (2,4,12,35,116), diag => https://oeis.org/A182645 (1,4,10,34), rect => https://oeis.org/A056780 (2,3,9,21), diamond => https://oeis.org/A056783
18:17:43 <b_jonas> (1,3,7,20), rotate => https://oeis.org/A000988 (1,2,7,18), square => https://oeis.org/A000105 (1,2,5,12,35,108).
18:17:55 <b_jonas> 35 shows up in three of these sequences, but that's probably just a co-incidence
18:22:54 <int-e> why have I done that relatively recently (without considering symmetries)... oh because of https://research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/June2022.html
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18:25:43 <b_jonas> now weighted polyminos aka polyminos with multiplicity, that is, the same square can be used multiple times. none => https://oeis.org/A113174 (3,11,44,184), central => (3,7,28,98,422,1768,7912,35489,162809,751789), horz => (3,8,29,106,433,1821,7998,35818,163398,753770), diag => (2,7,24,98,405,1768,7837,35488,162468,751776), rect => (3,6,21,63,248,963,4158,18190,82522,378409,1759438), diamond =>
18:25:50 <b_jonas> (2,5,16,55,220,910,3997,17860,81592,376415,1754071), rotate => (2,4,15,50,212,885,3959,17747,81407,375897,1753218), square => https://oeis.org/A331621 (2,4,12,35).
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18:25:59 <b_jonas> interestingly most of these aren't in OEIS
18:28:14 <b_jonas> next I want to do polykings, which is an easy modification of the current program, as well as polyminos with the squares coming in two or three distinct colors. then polyamonds, polyhexes, 3-d polyminos, and perhaps 4-d polyminos: these are harder both because the shapes are not so easy to show in a dumb terminal for debugging, and also I need to find all the symmetry groups.
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18:34:58 <b_jonas> I'll also compute a few more terms of these, though not as many as there are already in the OEIS
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18:38:58 <b_jonas> I might also want to compute the polyshapes on the 4D densest sphere packing grid, you know the one
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18:49:01 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133168&oldid=133162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Capitalisation, external resources, category
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19:29:42 <esolangs> [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133169&oldid=100705 * Int-e * (+2646) /* Computational class */
19:30:43 <int-e> esolangs: whoops, forgot the message; it's about the 2 counter case
19:33:17 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133170&oldid=133160 * Xff * (+84)
19:37:21 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133171&oldid=133170 * Xff * (+89)
19:37:21 <ais523> does Smalltalk have a comment syntax?
19:37:45 <ais523> most examples I've seen have no comments – and one example I just looked at is setting properties on objects that are never read, to have somewhere to put comments
19:39:05 <int-e> https://riptutorial.com/smalltalk/example/19305/literals-and-comments "Comments are enclosed in double quotes. BEWARE: This is NOT a string!"
19:41:44 <b_jonas> I guess they're kind of related so that makes sense
19:44:08 <cpressey> ( This is a comment in Forth. )
19:44:58 <cpressey> (and yes, you do need the spaces)
19:45:20 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133172&oldid=133171 * Xff * (+338)
19:45:53 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133173&oldid=133172 * Xff * (+0)
19:45:58 <ais523> parentheses for comments makes sense if your syntax is more inspired by English than maths
19:46:05 <ais523> although I guess square brackets might work even better
19:46:15 <ais523> needing the spaces intuitively makes sense to me, at least
19:46:22 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133174&oldid=133173 * Xff * (+4) /* examples */
19:46:57 <cpressey> Forth has a pretty primitive concept of "word" and if you want to start a word with a parenthesis Forth is totally fine with that
19:47:22 <int-e> I never understood Forth... it just felt arcane and annoyingly low level and that's basically where I lost interest since it was supposedly high level.
19:48:26 <int-e> I also think that it's fair to say that it never really caught on.
19:48:37 <b_jonas> Forth is supposed to be high level?
19:50:43 <int-e> it's possible that this claim was just one article from an enthusiast in some computer magazine
19:51:23 <cpressey> Compared to assembly language, which is what Chuck Moore was trying to do better than, Forth is high level.
19:51:58 <b_jonas> there's some amount of churn where the high-level language of today is the low-level language of one or two decades from now, but I don't understand why Forth would have counted as high-level even back then. Smalltalk is high-level, that I can understand.
19:52:34 <cpressey> There's some kind of quote about how he "wanted to write more than 5 programs in his life", or something, but it's possibly aprocyphal.
19:52:56 <int-e> cpressey: oh you returned, you may find https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-16.html#lee ff. interesting. maybe.
19:53:38 <cpressey> Sorry https://www.forth.com/resources/forth-programming-language/ says "My original goal was to write more than 40 programs in my life." But anyway.
19:57:29 <cpressey> int-e: yes, it's interesting, thanks. PSPACE is always interesting to me.
20:00:59 <cpressey> RPN is great but I agree that Forth-per-se-Forth has some weird snags in it that I have never cottoned to. They always drag things down to the implementation level. Threaded code, the dictionary, ...
20:08:03 <b_jonas> sure, but "40 programs in my life" made more sense in the 1970s, when people didn't have a computer or even terminal at home, but just had occasional access to it at the university, and wrote their programs on paper and possibly a card punching typewriter
20:08:55 <b_jonas> (typing your own program on a card punching typewriter would make it 1970s; in the 1960s typing from the gridded paper on the keyboard was a low-payed female secretary's job, not the programmer's)
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20:16:34 <cpressey> To be fair, I've never cottoned to Smalltalk either. For some reason it fails to have any appeal to me.
20:19:07 <b_jonas> I understand that, I'm just saying that while they are similar in some other ways, Smalltalk is high-level in a way that Forth isn't, eg. heap-allocated instances of classes
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20:25:22 <cpressey> I don't see Forth and Smalltalk as very similar at all, fwiw. My distates for both of them seem largely unrelated.
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20:27:43 <cpressey> Not a word I usually find myself pluralizing
20:28:33 <cpressey> Once, I had access to a university library, and I remember borrowing a Forth book and a book on the Mouse programming language, for weekend reading.
20:31:02 <b_jonas> I borrowed a Java book from my university library once, very long ago. It was only available in French, but since it was all programming reference documentation there was not much perceptible difference from it being in English.
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20:43:25 <fizzie> Arguably Forth gets less inconvenient to use if you use one of the locals syntaxes -- for example, mirroring the way you usually put in a stack effect comment in `: foo ( a b -- x ) ... ;`, in Gforth (I think it's an ANS Forth feature?) you can do `: foo { a b -- x } ... ;` and then while the `-- x` bit remains a comment, the first bit will actually pop a and b off the stack and allow you to
20:43:27 <fizzie> refer to them by name.
20:43:29 <fizzie> But I've been informed that's "doing it wrong", and instead you're supposed to just write so short word definitions that there's no inconvenience to just using the data stack without such modern embellishments.
20:43:42 <fizzie> But it never seems to work out that way in practice.
20:45:19 <fizzie> I do think it's a little charming how Open Firmware / OpenBoot is a Forth environment.
20:46:35 <b_jonas> I've got more terms for these sequences. I wonder where I should put them on the internet.
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20:50:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: I like GML's method. you can use real named local variables, they aren't on the data stack, but the compiler could put them onto the C stack together with return addresses.
20:51:46 <b_jonas> I don't necessarily like how GML handles arrays, mind you, just how it handles the data stack, local variables, and true closure lambdas
20:52:28 <b_jonas> it's a nice mixture between a stack-based language (like postscript) and a lambda-based language (like Haskell)
20:53:54 <esolangs> [[The Code of the Seven]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133175&oldid=107278 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+842) Introduced an examples section which embraces as its two incipial members a repeating cat program and a Hello, World! printer.
20:56:04 <esolangs> [[The Code of the Seven]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133176&oldid=133175 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+245) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the The Code of the Seven programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
21:15:35 <ais523> I dislike the way that Smalltalk programs don't have a traditional notion of source code – in particular, the program and the data it's operating on tend to get mixed together
21:16:02 <ais523> also I dislike the way the names work for methods that take 2+ arguments – I don't mind the named arguments but I dislike the way the method name and first argument name get mixed together
21:17:20 <ais523> as for Forth, I never really understood it well enough to develop a dislike of it
21:18:04 <b_jonas> I guess I can just put the numbers onto the esowiki for now, they're not creative expression anyway so they're not protectable by copyright
21:18:17 <b_jonas> even though this is technically off-topic because it's not esoteric enough
21:18:45 <b_jonas> but maybe if I later compute a weird enough variant they do become esoteric
21:18:52 <ais523> you could design an esolang where it matters (fundamentally enough that it isn't just "I have a builtin that prints this long text so I'll post the text on the wiki" – that's one of my more common copyright-related deletions)
21:19:41 <b_jonas> sure, but I'm deliberately trying to compute natural sequences here, natural enough that I expect many of them will be on the OEIS
21:20:09 <ais523> who knows, maybe they'll end up TC :-D
21:20:32 <ais523> I have been thinking about Antihydra and friends a bit recently – they can be seen as defining a programming language, and it is not completely obvious that the language is sub-TC
21:20:47 <ais523> (although it probably is)
21:21:40 <b_jonas> I can imagine PSPACE-complete or some such smaller class more easily than Turing-complete
21:22:09 <ais523> it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as the Conedy computational class, although they seem pretty related
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21:39:44 <cpressey> It is of course possible to imagine some combination of Forth and Smalltalk where (oh I don't know) words are sent messages consisting of the stack, and they return a new stack, and etc. Working this out is left as an exercise for the reader.
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21:49:50 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133177&oldid=133144 * TheCanon2 * (+28) Disambiguated.
21:53:46 <salpynx> int-e: Thanks for the PMMN article update re. 2 reg PMMN. For Halt, are you saying the program can halt with one of a finite range of (non zero) values in one register?
21:55:24 <int-e> You can insert a bunch of if (dec(0)) { inc(1); } at the end of the main loop to accomplish that, and adjust the operations to add an extra constant correspondingly.
21:55:44 <salpynx> TC on decision problems only is interesting. ... that seems like what I was trying to say but I hadn't clarified it my own head.
22:00:55 <int-e> Turing-completeness is usually defined for decision problems. But computing functions is useful and something Minsky machines can do but this simulation can't, so I thought it should be mentioned.
22:01:13 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133178 * B jonas * (+4846) Created page with "This page records the result of enumerating polyminoes (polyminos) and various similar animals, modulo different symmetries. The first types of animals live on the square grid. A polymino is a set of points on the square grid that is connected throug
22:02:06 <int-e> b_jonas: it's usually spelled poly*o*mino.
22:02:28 <b_jonas> oh... that makes no sense, but I'll include that spelling then
22:02:56 <salpynx> I wanted to tackle this because I thought there were too many 'because 2 reg MM is TC' statements that overlooked the range of 2 reg MMs and how the construction was quite particular.
22:04:10 <salpynx> I'm glad it is mentioned now on the article.
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22:04:39 <int-e> b_jonas: I've never really questioned the grammar of that... it is a weird term. But it's standard :/
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22:08:11 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133179&oldid=133178 * B jonas * (+82)
22:09:25 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133180&oldid=133179 * B jonas * (+15)
22:10:14 <salpynx> I think I need to fix the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_Swap article, I had a 'proof' that corrected a mistake in the spec. I think the spec needs to be corrected to match, since it it's meant to be a proper MM, given the title.
22:11:01 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133181&oldid=127208 * TheCanon2 * (+396) Added interpreters in two languages.
22:13:25 <b_jonas> int-e: if we wanted to know the canonical spelling, we'd probably have to check either Martin Gardner's writings or the Blue book (Nomenclature of Organic Chemistry, IUPAC Recommendations and Preferred Names, by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry Division VIII Chemical Nomenclature and Structure Representation Division)
22:14:16 <b_jonas> Gardner presumably writes about polyminos, while the IUPAC gives rules about when to drop vowels from their various numeric prefixes
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22:20:58 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133182&oldid=133181 * TheCanon2 * (+100) Added a note
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22:33:33 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/markovfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133183 * Tommyaweosme * (+636) Created page with "markov chain when trained on brainfuck article: CONFUSED WITH 8BITS NEWLINES THE COMMON IMPLEMENTATIONS OF CORE WAR BRAINFUCK TINYBF AND SO STANDARD SCORING WOULD GIVE IT TO SEPARATE CODE R S BRAINFUCKPC RELAY COMPUTER THE GOAL OF CELL BASED OP
22:37:24 <b_jonas> oh... I guess enumerating the multi versions isn't too interesting because you can get the sequence of counts from the orignal sequence with some linear transformation
22:38:07 <b_jonas> and some of the other variants that was thinking of with labels on the point are like that too
22:39:20 <b_jonas> but I should probably compute the numbers for 3-d polyminos that fit in a distinguished two block thick plane
22:40:35 <b_jonas> probably just polyhexes and polyamonds first though
22:49:43 <b_jonas> here are the small polykings by the way: https://dpaste.com/7FXTBD6JD.txt
22:52:40 <b_jonas> and here are all the small polyminos: https://dpaste.com/5GBXKHMNJ.txt
22:56:12 <b_jonas> btw, Erich Friedman spells it "polyomino", that's at least kind of authoritive
23:05:18 <b_jonas> oh, and I should count the animials made of *edges* of the square grid. don't know off hand what fancy name those have.
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02:36:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133186&oldid=133122 * PrySigneToFry * (+200)
02:37:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133187&oldid=133186 * PrySigneToFry * (+88)
02:56:03 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133188&oldid=133133 * Joe * (+29)
02:56:44 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133189&oldid=133188 * Joe * (+1) inifnite loop example
02:56:55 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133190&oldid=133189 * Joe * (+0) fixed page
02:57:09 <esolangs> [[User:Joe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133191&oldid=127917 * Joe * (+13)
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04:32:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Alphabet letters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133192&oldid=100854 * TheCanon2 * (+148) /* The links are dead. */ new section
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05:30:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133193&oldid=133062 * PrySigneToFry * (+346)
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05:30:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133194&oldid=133193 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
05:35:50 <b_jonas> I should also try polyaboloes, which are made of tans (equilateral right triangles) that are half of a grid square on the square grid, such that you can only halve each grid square one way, but if you have both halves of a grid square then you can't distinguish which way it's halved, and for connectivity two tans are neighbors if they share an edge. these at least have the same possible symmetries as
05:35:56 <b_jonas> polyominoes and polykings, but are complicated and kind of esoteric in other ways, so I can develop the enumeration and a visualization routine without having to pay attention to the symmetry groups part.
05:54:13 <zzo38> I noticed list of games on b_jonas's user page; I also like Hero Hearts (and wrote my own implementation of So Broken in the Free Hero Mesh programming language), and I and some other people like to play Pokemon which is different from the Pokemon card game. Also, "Netrunner is Turing-complete" is linked from somewhere, specifically, that Todo list (I don't know where else to put it though).
05:55:02 <zzo38> And, although ICFP 2014 GCC and GHC there are articles, they do not include any documentations, examples, etc; maybe it is worth to be added some
05:57:20 <zzo38> (I think my "XGCC" article describes a superset, so you could copy parts of that article and change some of it to ignore the irrelevant parts (e.g. the way the stops are working))
05:59:07 <zzo38> Also, I don't know if a category should be added for IOCCC. And, the link for the OpenTTD is not working correctly; it says error
06:00:18 <zzo38> "Possibly some other computers in http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/ringhome.html" also is not working (if you have another copy of that or remember what was written, then I will hope that you can write that)
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06:44:46 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133195&oldid=133180 * B jonas * (+2)
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07:32:44 <esolangs> [[H+Q9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133196&oldid=118848 * PrySigneToFry * (+52)
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07:59:09 <wib_jonas> zzo38: http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/ringhome.html is or was a list of homepages about esoteric computer hardware, including at least http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ (on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Magic-1 ), see notes on the bottom of http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
08:00:23 <wib_jonas> games on b_jonas's user page => I try to put mostly games where I have evidence that at least two channel regulars are playing the same game, because those are the ones where we have the most useful discussions
08:01:10 <wib_jonas> "Netrunner is Turing-complete" is linked from somewhere => yes, that TODO item was because I'd like it linked from the main namespace so that https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=netrunner doesn't come up empty
08:02:45 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133197&oldid=133167 * B jonas * (-6) /* Todo */ fix link to OpenTTD
08:03:58 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133198&oldid=133197 * B jonas * (-226) /* Todo */
08:06:35 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133199&oldid=133198 * B jonas * (+83)
08:07:30 <esolangs> [[Trilime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133200&oldid=119405 * B jonas * (-9) Marking as not a stub because there isn't much more you can write about this topic.
08:09:37 <esolangs> [[XRay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133201 * PrySigneToFry * (+1533) Created page with "{{WIP}} XRay is designed by PSTF. It is for expanding HQ9+. == Requirements == # No uncomputable command. # No joke command. # No command longer than 100 character. # If your program includes the arguments, then they must marked with bold or italic. == Command Tabl
08:11:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133202&oldid=132937 * PrySigneToFry * (+11)
08:12:58 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133203&oldid=133185 * Gggfr * (+15)
08:15:36 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133204&oldid=133199 * B jonas * (+207) /* Todo */ CPUs by BMOW
08:19:35 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133205&oldid=133204 * B jonas * (+122) /* Todo */ Mark 1 FORTH
08:20:37 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133206&oldid=133203 * Gggfr * (-2)
08:22:25 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133207&oldid=133205 * B jonas * (+56) /* Todo */ D16/M
08:36:35 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133208&oldid=132834 * PrySigneToFry * (+102)
08:38:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:SyntaxError: invalid syntax]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133209 * PrySigneToFry * (+67) /* An abbreviation for this Esolang */ new section
08:40:23 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133210&oldid=133206 * Gggfr * (+203)
08:43:28 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133211&oldid=132027 * Gggfr * (+109) /* Implementations */
08:43:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:No.pe.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133212 * PrySigneToFry * (+296) /* I have a Cheating Quine. */ new section
08:44:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:No.pe.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133213&oldid=133212 * PrySigneToFry * (+91)
08:45:05 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133214&oldid=132176 * Gggfr * (+11) /* examples */
08:45:06 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133215&oldid=133086 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
08:46:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133216&oldid=133214 * Gggfr * (+61) /* normal commands */
08:47:36 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133217&oldid=133216 * Gggfr * (-17)
08:57:42 <esolangs> [[Division]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133218&oldid=113413 * PrySigneToFry * (+429)
08:58:12 <esolangs> [[Division]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133219&oldid=133218 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
09:06:18 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133220&oldid=131667 * Gggfr * (+2) /* Programs */
09:10:03 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133221&oldid=133220 * Gggfr * (+75)
09:16:52 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133222&oldid=133217 * Gggfr * (+25)
09:21:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133223 * Gggfr * (+126) Created page with "Is is turing complete. Like you can simulate bf in it! Like this(3 cell): * start program with rR * > is > * and < is < * , is"
09:21:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133224&oldid=133223 * Gggfr * (+5)
09:23:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133225&oldid=133224 * Gggfr * (+11)
09:27:32 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133226&oldid=133222 * Gggfr * (+71) /* register commands */
09:43:04 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133227&oldid=133226 * Gggfr * (-70)
09:47:45 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133228&oldid=133227 * Gggfr * (-2)
09:50:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133229&oldid=133225 * Gggfr * (+70)
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10:57:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanzifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133230&oldid=125824 * PrySigneToFry * (+328)
10:58:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanzifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133231&oldid=133230 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
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11:12:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:Cat 01.png]]"
11:15:07 <esolangs> [[Chordfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133233 * PrySigneToFry * (+842) Created page with "Chordfuck is based on music and brainfuck. == Command Table == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Table |- ! Chordfuck !! Brainfuck |- | Major || <nowiki>></nowiki> |- | Minor || <nowiki><</nowiki> |- | Augmented || <nowiki>+</nowiki> |- | Diminished || <nowiki>-</
11:15:24 <esolangs> [[Chordfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133234&oldid=133233 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
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12:35:29 <wib_jonas> ``` objdump -T /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/{libc.so.6,libncurses.so.6.1,libm-2.28.so} | perl -ne 'if ("*UND*" ne substr($_,25,5)) { $s = substr($_,47)=~s/\A\h*\S+\h+(?=\S)//r; if ($s=~/\A(\S{1,3})\s/) {print "$1 ";} } END{print" ;\n"}';
12:35:30 <HackEso> div ffs tee brk err dup ftw abs nl box tan y0 y1 pow sin yn cos fma erf nan j0 j1 exp j0f j0l jnf jnl j1f jn j1l y0f y0l ynf ynl y1f y1l log ;
12:35:48 <wib_jonas> ``` objdump -T /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/{libc.so.6,libncurses.so.6.1} | perl -ne 'if ("*UND*" ne substr($_,25,5)) { $s = substr($_,47)=~s/\A\h*\S+\h+(?=\S)//r; if ($s=~/\A(\S{4})\s/) {print "$1 ";} } END{print" ;\n"}';
12:35:49 <HackEso> getc l64a gets a64l getw acct exit wait pipe verr putc _res puts fork putw gtty time step kill sbrk mmap feof ldiv swab send warn glob glob fcvt bind read dup2 dup3 poll ftok recv rand ffsl modf nice rcmd sstk atof atoi atol stty open iopl ecvt labs link errx loc1 loc2 sync bcmp nftw nftw gcvt locs free echo bkgd nonl scrl inch move beep ;
12:36:03 <wib_jonas> ``` objdump -T /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm-2.28.so | perl -ne 'if ("*UND*" ne substr($_,25,5)) { $s = substr($_,47)=~s/\A\h*\S+\h+(?=\S)//r; if ($s=~/\A(\S{4})\s/) {print "$1 ";} } END{print" ;\n"}';
12:36:05 <HackEso> fadd acos fmin cexp cabs modf fmod clog ctan fdim fdiv fmul conj sqrt cpow rint csin ceil tanf tanh carg tanl cosf cosh cosl ccos powf powf powl drem cbrt exp2 expf expf expl atan nanf fmaf nanl fmal fmax sinf fsub sinh sinl log2 logb logf logf logl asin erfc fabs erff erfl ;
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12:37:29 <wib_jonas> short symbol names. very long ago I tried to define one of the very short ones (probably j0 or y0) as a global in a C program and the program failed to work. that's when I found out about these.
12:37:50 <wib_jonas> of course this doesn't help if you collide with macros or language keywords.
12:45:05 <fizzie> I think I've been bitten by j0/j1 before. They're relatively obscure.
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13:02:29 <wib_jonas> As for libncurses, besides its short symbols (nl box echo bkgd nonl scrl inch move beep), I'd like to shout out erase and clear. Libc of course has remove, which is a C standard function. All three (erase remove clear) have additional completely different meanings in the C++ standard library, but there it appears only in mangled C++ symbols.
13:02:29 <wib_jonas> However, "clean" somehow seems to be not yet squatted, at least by these libraries.
13:05:20 <wib_jonas> oh wow, "Clean" is somehow not yet used in M:tG too. why is that not in the list on https://scryfall.com/card/unh/10/erase-(not-the-urzas-legacy-one) then?
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13:07:59 <wib_jonas> so (clean delete flush purge) are *ahem* free
13:10:03 <wib_jonas> In M:tG, Delete got recently used up, while Clean and Free are still free.
13:15:32 <HackEso> CLEAR(1) - clear the terminal screen \ clear(1) - clear the terminal screen \ clear(3x) - clear all or part of a curses window \ clear(8jevalbot) - delete a persistent session \ clean(8jevalbot) - change to the default persistent session and delete it
13:15:40 <HackEso> free(1) - Display amount of free and used memory in the system \ free(3) - allocate and free dynamic memory \ free(3p) - free allocated memory \ free(8lambdabot) - no description \ free(3glibc) - Freeing after Malloc
13:15:51 <HackEso> erase(3x) - clear all or part of a curses window \ remove(3) - remove a file or directory \ remove(3p) - remove a file \ remove(3glibc) - Deleting Files \ delete: nothing appropriate.
13:16:01 <wib_jonas> ``` whatis flush purge wipe scrub rub ablate abrade chafe fray frazzle scuff
13:16:03 <HackEso> flush: nothing appropriate. \ purge: nothing appropriate. \ wipe: nothing appropriate. \ scrub: nothing appropriate. \ rub: nothing appropriate. \ ablate: nothing appropriate. \ abrade: nothing appropriate. \ chafe: nothing appropriate. \ fray: nothing appropriate. \ frazzle: nothing appropriate. \ scuff: nothing appropriate.
13:20:54 <wib_jonas> hmm, I should add cmd builtins and DOS commands to the whatisdb
13:22:32 <wib_jonas> (because erase is both of those, to be clear)
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13:42:37 <wib_jonas> ``` </hackenv/tmp/cmd.whatis tr -d \\r | grep cmd | cat -v >> /hackenv/share/whatis
13:42:47 <HackEso> erase(3x) - clear all or part of a curses window \ ERASE(1cmd) - Deletes one or more files.
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13:49:05 <esolangs> [[HackEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133235&oldid=95414 * B jonas * (+433) /* The wisdom and quote databases */
13:52:44 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133236&oldid=133143 * TheCanon2 * (+18)
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13:57:10 <wib_jonas> oh right, I could have just piped that into addwhatis instead of appending to the file. though I still needed the grep, for some reason addwhatis warns about empty lines.
14:04:55 <esolangs> [[$!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133237 * TheCanon2 * (+371) Added $!
14:07:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133238&oldid=133187 * Tommyaweosme * (+109)
14:25:21 <Sgeo> Would it make any sense to put the core BytePusher processing inside an audio worklet?
14:36:38 <riv> I have something incredibly cursed to share with you
15:10:05 <ais523> wib_jonas: huh, "delete" wasn't even in the flavor text of "Erase (Not the Urza's Legacy One)" in the first place
15:10:09 <ais523> was checking to see if it had been crossed off
15:10:15 <ais523> maybe it wasn't funny enough
15:11:38 <ais523> I guess it doesn't make sense as a synonym for "remove artwork", even though it is a synonym for "erase"
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15:19:35 <fowl> https://arxiv.org/pdf/2406.19108 is there a better esolang to use for this than brainfuck?
15:20:47 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, it seems they mostly listed obscure synonyms there
15:21:41 <int-e> . o O ( https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.19108 )
15:26:49 <ais523> fowl: a) almost certainly yes, but b) I can't think of a specific example offhand
15:27:08 <ais523> I think this sort of experiment would work best with languages where slightly modifying a program gave you slightly modified behaviour
15:27:11 <ais523> but most languages don't work like that
15:27:13 <wib_jonas> or maybe that flavor text counts "used" in a more general sense, eg. "cleanse" is not listed because there's a "Cleansing", "wipe" and "clean" is not listed because there's a "Wipe Clean". though that doesn't explain why "delete" is missing. maybe they wanted to leave some ambiguity so the flavor text reads better in the future and/or doesn't spoil
15:27:51 <ais523> well, Unhinged was quite a while ago by this point – it's back when I was actually playing, which is not at all recent
15:27:55 <ais523> (I stopped playing during Lorwyn)
15:28:54 <ais523> I am a bit surprised that the word "Brainfuck" [sic] was used in an apparently serious mathematical paper without censoring it
15:29:17 <ais523> although, wow, every use is at the start of a sentence or in a title
15:29:21 <ais523> so maybe it isn't misspelled after all
15:30:01 <wib_jonas> ais523: mathematics papers already use terms that you can't take on an airplane, "Brainfuck" is mild compared to those
15:38:57 <wib_jonas> as for ohter M:tG card names, there are cards named Annihilate, Reap, Assassinate, Murder, Slay, "Kill! Destroy!", Killer, Death. The first two are old, the last two are split cards. The split cards are a bit of a pity, Death would be a nice name for an Incarnation creature. There is no card yet called just "Kill" or "Destroy" or "Die".
15:39:48 <wib_jonas> There is no "Pass away" or "Decease" either.
15:41:04 <esolangs> [[$!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133239&oldid=133237 * TheCanon2 * (+700) Finished the article.
15:46:32 <esolangs> [[$!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133240&oldid=133239 * TheCanon2 * (-4) Fixed an arguably stupid mistake I made.
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16:18:05 <korvo> ais523: How's the Hydra research going? Are you still on it?
16:19:08 <korvo> I wasn't sure whether you saw my note the other day. I proved that Hydra's sequence is highly patterned *and* that the pattern is evenly distributed (mod 2**k), not just (mod 2).
16:23:11 <korvo> https://imgur.com/a/hydra-diagram-Mw5UbX2 shows the basic idea for the (mod 4) case. Each of the (mod 2) transitions comes apart into two (mod 4) transitions.
16:24:19 <korvo> The extreme symmetry continues all the way up (verified (mod 8) by hand) because 3 is always coprime to 2**k. This is sufficient to fully explain Hydra's behavior IMO; it probviously tends towards these diagrams after some initial segment.
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16:29:06 <korvo> Also note that indeed "maths is not ready for such problems" as Erdös said. The issue here is that the induction is permanently fenceposted; in order to justify the (mod 2) case, we need to already have the (mod 4) case partially done, and so on. The induction is just not there.
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16:45:01 <ais523> <korvo> ais523: How's the Hydra research going? Are you still on it? ← I've been thinking about it a bit but haven't really started
16:45:55 <esolangs> [[XRay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133241&oldid=133201 * Unname4798 * (+91)
16:45:56 <ais523> I was mostly thinking about implementing it efficiently – the Collatz function in question can be pretty efficiently implemented by a cellular automaton that stores the numbers in octal (allowing 8, 9, and 10 as digits in addition to the usual ones), which means that hashlife-style implementations may be able to speed itu p
16:50:56 <korvo> Oh, that's an interesting approach. The idea is to turn powers of two into powers of three?
16:52:49 <ais523> doing a multiplication by 3 in octal is fairly simple, you just do long multiplication, but to save having to propagate the carry you just add the carry from the digit below to the least significant digit of the result
16:53:42 <ais523> e.g. 15A (octal) × 3 = 0300 + 150 + 36 = 0486
16:54:16 <ais523> e.g. 15A (octal) × 3 = 0300 + 170 + 36 = 04A6
16:54:37 <ais523> sorry, did the eights digit in decimal by mistake
16:55:17 <ais523> this makes it possible to use local reasoning to do the multiplications, and the odd/even collatz stuff is also easy to implement in a cellular automaton
16:56:32 <ais523> (and of course, dividing by 2 in octal is trivial)
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17:01:13 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133242&oldid=133156 * Gggfr * (-723) /* Idea 4(done) */
17:09:52 <korvo> Nice. This starts to really connect the dots WRT Erdös' conjecture that 2**k can't be written as a sum of powers of three for k>8. That one also can be phrased with a base change, using trinary.
17:19:49 <ais523> my plan was to not do the divisions by 2 in the automaton itself and instead just have the LSB gradually move to the left – if you do implement the divisions you probably have to add B/11 as a digit in addition to the other ten
17:20:36 <ais523> but, implementing the division is probably more efficient as it means that many fewer colors are needed to handle the least-significant digit
17:20:50 <ais523> so I think this conversation has changed the plan :-)
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17:38:44 <korvo> Counterintuitive but understandable. Good luck.
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17:42:51 <b_jonas> hmm... I could try to make an eso-captcha system from the polyforms enumeration later: I'd show an image of one of these classes of polyforms with their positions and orientations randomized, and you have to point at the one duplicate pair or enter the missing one into a grid
17:46:09 <ais523> "enter the missing one" would be hard for humans – finding duplicates is a bit easier
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17:46:54 <ais523> (and would also give a better UI)
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17:56:15 <b_jonas> not only is it "polyomino" with an extra vowel, it's also "polyiamond" rather than "polyamond".
17:56:52 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/Polyminoes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133243&oldid=133195 * B jonas * (+1) spelling is "polyiamonds"
17:59:12 <ais523> I think, when English adds a prefix ending in a vowel to a word starting with a vowel, it's more common to drop the vowel from the prefix than the vowel from the stem
18:00:04 <ais523> "monomial" is a weird case (compared to "polynomial" there are two letters overlapping between the prefix and stem), although in that one the letters are the same so you can't tell which were kept
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18:33:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133244&oldid=133202 * TheCanon2 * (+12) /* N */ Added Nulla
18:35:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133245&oldid=133244 * TheCanon2 * (+10) /* H */ Added H
18:35:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133246&oldid=133245 * TheCanon2 * (+9) /* Non-alphabetic */ Added $!
18:38:28 <b_jonas> hmm, so is there a table or rulebook somewhere that gives all these words (polyform, polyomino, polyabolo, polyiamond, polyhex) and their versions when prefixed with specific small numbers eg. tetromino, hexiamond, plus the plurals for all of these?
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19:56:57 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133247&oldid=133207 * B jonas * (-43) /* Todo */
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20:28:42 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133248&oldid=133211 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implementations */ Sort
20:32:45 <esolangs> [[Alphabet letters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133249&oldid=101153 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Interpretter */ Dead links
20:56:53 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133250&oldid=133221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Categories
20:57:13 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133251&oldid=133250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lowercase
20:59:16 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133252&oldid=133034 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-70) Fix links, add categories
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21:02:42 <esolangs> [[GEMROOTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133253&oldid=35196 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155) Categories
21:03:21 <esolangs> [[Gemooy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133254&oldid=122673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ Category
21:05:38 <esolangs> [[Zame]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133255&oldid=36681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Categories
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21:09:06 <esolangs> [[Gen Alpha]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133256&oldid=127985 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) Distinguish confusion, add category
21:09:24 <esolangs> [[Gen Alpha]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133257&oldid=133256 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
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21:09:56 <esolangs> [[Gen Alpha Brainrot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133258&oldid=125372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) Distinguish confusion
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21:24:12 <b_jonas> my home computer crashed again, and this reminds me of a question.
21:29:23 <b_jonas> so you know how in the 90s, computer hardware was simpler, so there usually wasn't any way to detect and configure hardware automatically. as a user, you had to explicitly pick the right drivers, and give each of them a few pieces of configuration settings. the type, port numbers, and IRQ numbers for PCI cards; allowed ranges of vsync and hsync rates plus length of the sync signal and the padding before
21:29:29 <b_jonas> and after sync signal for monitors, available clocks for a video card, the number of physical heads and cylinders and sectors for a hard disk, baud rate and number of value bits and parity bits and start bits and stop bits for a serial connection, etc.
21:30:17 <b_jonas> but then later more complex semiconductors got cheap enough that today I don't need to configure anything, just plug stuff together, the software automatically detects everything.
21:32:36 <b_jonas> and you know how in those simpler 1990 hardware, the earliest CD writers had the annoying property that if the software was too slow to refill its small write buffer while burning, then when the buffer emptied the burner would just keep burning unwanted data and ruined the disk. but then when the more complex chips got cheap, CD writers fixed this so if the buffer runs out they just stop burning and you
21:32:42 <b_jonas> can eventually continue, at most you waste a few sectors and seconds.
21:33:14 <b_jonas> so my question is, when a modern computer hangs, why does the sound card keep playing the same one-second sample forever on repeat rather than failing to silence?
21:34:18 <b_jonas> I can understand why the video card keeps showing the same image, since that can sometimes contain useful log entries or other clues for the reason why the computer hung, but the repeated sound is just so annoying.
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21:47:58 <korvo> I want to say that it's because of latency-first engineering principles in sound hardware, but I think that that's not a real answer.
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21:48:57 <korvo> Like, I think a real answer would include that decade or so where Sound Blaster® hardware was well-known for literally destroying the host board if programmed wrong.
21:50:17 <korvo> Because your example, CD writers, if they don't automatically stop burning then something will be damaged. And their manufacturers recognize that those little laser-jewel assemblies are expensive and easy to damage.
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21:58:10 <esolangs> [[$!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133259&oldid=133240 * TheCanon2 * (+263) Added a Hello, World! program
22:00:32 <zzo38> I don't know why. Some kind of sounds, according to the way they are programmed (e.g. with hardware ADSR, or with a programmable timer to tell it to expire) should be able to stop autmoatically. I don't know why the other kind doesn't stop automatically; I would think it should be designed to stop once the sound is finish playing.
22:06:14 <fizzie> I assume the "repeat a buffer if it underruns" is a thing in the first place because it's less jarring than silence would be if it's just one "missed frame" here and there; and then just letting that do its thing is the lazy choice, because do you really need to optimize for the case of a crashed computer? It might be annoying, but it's not going to ruin a CD.
22:06:24 <int-e> I think it's easier and less timing critical to have a buffer that's played continuously (looping) and, say, trigger an interrupt at the end and at the half-way point so that the software can refill it. If you stop playing the software would have to restart it and getting the timing correct is tricky.
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22:09:20 <fizzie> "Repeat the last frame" is I think also what simple VoIPy things do to mask lost packets. (Complex VoIPy things may in fact interpolate and extrapolate.)
22:10:38 <int-e> Anyway, I don't know.
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22:12:25 <fizzie> I only listen to my computer these days using an USB DAC, and I kinda suspect if the computer crashed terminally it'd just go silent, because it relies on USB continuing to do its complicated dance.
22:15:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't the complicated USB dance also done by a controller that runs independently, so that it can, you know, DRM transfer in the background, since USB is often used to transfer data very fast for extended periods these days
22:16:45 <b_jonas> unrelated: some of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_kinship sounds like esolangers invented parts of it
22:17:22 <fizzie> Maybe, but I guess _eventually_ those buffers would run dry rather than repeating forever. (Just a guess.)
22:20:44 <zzo38> I saw the mention of Australian Aboriginal kinship in a book once
22:20:50 <int-e> Hmm https://www.edn.com/fundamentals-of-usb-audio/ is interesting. So first of all, the device obviously has to speak USB, receiving and sending frames of data. But the article suggests that the required buffer is actually rather small... and you don't want a 8kHz beep just because the computer stopped sending data.
22:21:51 <korvo> Fundamental USB issue. The desired property is called "isochrony" and USB just doesn't have it. Compare to FireWire, which is both isochronous and has innate DMA security issues.
22:21:53 <int-e> (dealing with USB is a huge complication)
22:23:14 <korvo> You need isochrony to shove a pile of pixels or audio samples (auxels?) over a digital link with low latency anyway, because you need to put next frame's pixels on the wire before last frame is ack'd.
22:24:00 <korvo> ...I wanted to write "before last frame is cleared from the receiving buffer", and indeed that's where the DMA security problems are.
22:24:03 <int-e> Well apparently there *are* isochronous transfers in USB.
22:24:39 <int-e> I'm sure it's flawed in many ways.
22:25:06 <korvo> In USB 3 maybe? I haven't kept up. I know it was a big argument around the USB 1.2 and 2.0 era, because of the three different hardware abstractions (ECHI, UCHI, ACHI?)
22:26:01 <b_jonas> korvo: isn't the first one OHCI, while I think AHCI doesn't exist?
22:26:35 <korvo> b_jonas: I genuinely don't remember. I don't even remember who made them; I think two of the vendors were Intel and VIA.
22:28:29 <korvo> A friend's spouse was involved in the USB 3 implementation in Linux. It sounded like the worst fucking headache.
22:30:36 <int-e> korvo: hmm. https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/344639/isochronous-and-interrupt-transfers-for-usb-where-to-learn-about-it says that it's no longer used
22:31:15 <int-e> and the modern approach is to paint it over with excess bandwidth.
22:31:35 <int-e> (for USB sound devices)
22:32:11 <korvo> Yep, USB 2.0 bandwidth is fairly insane even at Full Speed, and if you divide it up, you get pretty good latency with reasonably-sized packets of samples.
22:32:49 <korvo> Of course, folks immediately went and spent Moore's Dividend (or the radio equivalent) on Bluetooth audio. Utterly ridiculous. But yeah, now USB audio is fast enough for pro work.
22:37:19 <b_jonas> sure, I even use a webcamera through USB 2 for video chatting with relatives. admittedly it's just 1280×720 pixels times 30/s; for the higher quality cameras that I worked with in my previous job you need either USB 3 or ethernet
22:40:02 <b_jonas> I figured it was better to buy two cheap webcameras rather than one high quality one for multiple times the price. 60/s frame rate bumps the price by like a 10× factor.
22:41:03 <b_jonas> the mobile phones on the other end are on fast wifi half of the time, so I could transfer higher quality video through the rest of the stack by the way
22:45:57 <fizzie> Think I've told this story before, but I had an external DVB-T box back in... 2005-ish, which was USB 1.2 rather than 2.0, and while the proprietary Windows drivers knew how to program the box to extract a single program out of the MPEG-TS multiplex, the Linux drivers could only program it into the mode where it tries to dump the entire stream, which made it unusable (at least in Finland in
22:45:58 <fizzie> Linux) because the multiplexes required more than the 12 Mbps of Full Speed bandwidth.
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22:58:26 <zzo38> If you wanted to use IEEE 1394 instead of USB, how would it be done? My computer, and the cable box for the TV, both have IEEE 1394, although they are not in the same room. Can EIA 608 and EIA 708 be used with IEEE 1394, or is the composite video capture required for this?
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01:02:39 <esolangs> [[Chordfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133260&oldid=133234 * PrySigneToFry * (+24)
01:05:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133261&oldid=132838 * PrySigneToFry * (+2155)
01:10:57 <korvo> zzo38: IEEE 1394 is FireWire, right? The main issue IIRC is that the signal drops off *very* fast and you can't have a cable longer than like maybe 5m without some sort of repeater.
01:15:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:.png]]"
01:16:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133263&oldid=133020 * PrySigneToFry * (+314) /* You're going too far */ new section
01:22:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133264&oldid=133238 * PrySigneToFry * (+362)
01:22:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133265&oldid=133264 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
01:26:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133266&oldid=133008 * PrySigneToFry * (+49)
01:31:07 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133267&oldid=133190 * Joe * (+156)
01:31:12 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133268&oldid=129333 * PrySigneToFry * (+92)
01:31:19 <esolangs> [[Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133269&oldid=133267 * Joe * (-2)
01:32:27 <korvo> Stupid question: The page [[Brainfuck]] links several TMs in BF. Is there a (popular, well-known) compiler/interpreter of BF in TMs?
01:32:53 <korvo> I'm sure I've seen it before and I'm looking right past it.
01:33:26 <esolangs> [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133270&oldid=128957 * PrySigneToFry * (+59)
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02:46:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mugh brains]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133271 * PrySigneToFry * (+382) /* About the Example Program */ new section
02:47:22 <esolangs> [[Mugh brains]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133272&oldid=97014 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
02:48:11 <esolangs> [[Mugh brains]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133273&oldid=133272 * PrySigneToFry * (-8)
02:58:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133274&oldid=86905 * PrySigneToFry * (+100) /* = */ new section
03:00:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133275&oldid=133274 * PrySigneToFry * (+258)
03:16:56 <esolangs> [[Translated C++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133276 * PrySigneToFry * (+2631) Created page with "Translated C++ is [[C++]] but horribly translated with Microsoft and Baidu. It is designed by PSTF. 1. Take this program <pre> #include <cstdio> #include <cmath> #include <cstring> #include <string> #include <iostream> using namespace std; const int maxn =
03:17:49 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133277&oldid=132967 * PrySigneToFry * (+62) /* Horribly translated variants */
03:24:25 <esolangs> [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133278&oldid=117238 * PrySigneToFry * (+190)
04:09:57 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133279&oldid=133116 * Unname4798 * (+12)
04:11:57 <esolangs> [[Ixth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133280&oldid=101649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) Categories
04:15:53 <esolangs> [[STBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133281&oldid=112430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Categories
04:16:38 <esolangs> [[STBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133282&oldid=133281 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Remove blank line
04:24:46 <esolangs> [[YNTDAE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133283 * Unname4798 * (+529) Created page with "Work In Progress. YNTDAE (You Need To Describe An Esolang) is an esoteric programming language. == Syntax == ''a'': ''b b b b b b b b'' -> ''c c c c c c c c'', ''d d d d d d d d'' -> ''e e e e e e e e'' ''f'': ''g g g g g g g g'' -> ''f f f f f f f f''; Wildcards ar
04:25:05 <esolangs> [[YNTDAE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133284&oldid=133283 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:25:31 <esolangs> [[YNTDAE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133285&oldid=133284 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:25:50 <esolangs> [[YNTDAE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133286&oldid=133285 * Unname4798 * (+1)
04:37:35 <esolangs> [[YNTDAE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133287&oldid=133286 * Unname4798 * (+0)
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07:10:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133288&oldid=96071 * Gggfr * (+175) /* Interpreter */
07:11:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133289&oldid=133288 * Gggfr * (+12)
07:14:16 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133290&oldid=133029 * Gggfr * (+192)
07:14:47 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133291&oldid=133290 * Gggfr * (+0)
07:22:26 <wib_jonas> Another quirk of 90s computer hardware was when people had 64 MB of RAM in their desktop computer and 128 MB of RAM in the laser printers for the Postscript renderer. You can see the effect of this in the Adobe PostScript Language Document Structuring Conventions Specifications (DSC), which defines the magic comments in postscript files that
07:22:26 <wib_jonas> delimit pages and tell the page size. Today the main use of these comments is to make large postscript files seekable in postscript viewers, because the postscript core was designed to be read in sequence once by the printer and printed immediately, and the interpreter is stateful so you can't freely seek. But where the intro of the DSC explains
07:22:27 <wib_jonas> the motivation of the DSC, it doesn't even mention postscript viewers. It says the DSC is for programs that transform a postscript document, such as splitting a document to parts for printing on multiple printers in parallel (this is seriously one of their examples). It seems the idea is that you wouldn't use a postscript viewer on the computer,
07:22:27 <wib_jonas> because the computer might not even have enough resources to run one efficiently, rather you'd preview the document with the original document editor like MS Word or Wordperfect, since those have separate display drivers and sometimes separate fonts optimized for showing on a low resolution monitor using a cheap CPU and not much RAM.
07:23:30 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133292&oldid=133291 * Gggfr * (+56)
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07:26:52 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133294&oldid=128380 * Gggfr * (+10)
07:27:01 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133295&oldid=133294 * Gggfr * (-9)
07:27:56 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133296&oldid=133295 * Gggfr * (+7)
07:29:22 <wib_jonas> Also those printers were also assumed to not have automatic configuration, so you have to tell the computer what size of paper you put into it and the printer can't check that, so the postscript program itself doesn't tell what paper is needed, only the DSC magic comments do. That was true back when I used a dot matrix printer, but no longer when I
07:29:22 <wib_jonas> met our family's first laser printer, a HP LaserJet II P. The laser printer knew quite well what size of paper it got, which is how the error message "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_LOAD_LETTER" became infamous.
07:38:01 <wib_jonas> So in effect, all but very early postscript interpreters, both in printers and elsewhere, usually have to read the DSC comments anyway to find out the paper size, and they're effectively part of the language.
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07:40:13 <wib_jonas> I guess it's kind of like the <!--[if IE7]> magic comments in HTML that all modern browsers have to interpret anyway
07:41:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:SymbolLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133297&oldid=122923 * Gggfr * (+135)
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08:21:22 <wib_jonas> The DSC specification is from 1992 by the way.
08:23:05 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133298&oldid=133242 * Gggfr * (+501)
08:23:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Europe2048 * uploaded "[[File:Truthmacineniceprogram.png]]"
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08:26:52 <wib_jonas> Admittedly it does also mention a more current use case, which is when you store a figure in a postscript file, then include that file into a text document like a research article.
08:27:12 <wib_jonas> (those are my words, the spec uses much more general and vague descriptions)
08:28:19 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133300&oldid=133298 * Gggfr * (+82)
08:33:48 <wib_jonas> oh nice, the DSC has a magic comment to specify hole punching or stapling if the printer supports automatically doing that.
08:34:48 <wib_jonas> then there's a different magic comment that tells the printer a password that the user should enter at the printer's UI before it starts printing, for documents with sensitive contents printed on shared printers
08:36:44 <wib_jonas> well, this version (3.0) of the DSC specification is from 1992, I don't know when the earlier versions are from
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08:47:56 <wib_jonas> The occasion, by the way, is that for graphically visualizing the small polyominos and other polyforms, I'm thinking of emitting a simple postscript document.
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09:16:58 <esolangs> [[(*U]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133301 * Gggfr * (+1493) Created page with "'''(*U''' is a esolang (made by [[User:yaymhere]]) inspired by [[BackFlip]], [[Black]], and conways game of life. Its 2d and is meant to be [[turing complete]] like black. Also its name comes from random typing and is pronounced opening star U(OSU) == how it works == OSU is k
09:17:24 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133302&oldid=133301 * Gggfr * (+11)
09:18:11 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133303&oldid=133302 * Gggfr * (+4)
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09:30:11 <esolangs> [[Nebulang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133304 * PrySigneToFry * (+3145) Created page with "Nebulang is designed by PSTF and his ChatGPT. == Features == === Variable === In Nebulang, variables are represented as quantum states. Each variable can exist in a superposition of states, allowing for parallel computation and non-deterministic behavior. === L
09:30:29 <esolangs> [[Nebulang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133305&oldid=133304 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
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09:31:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133306&oldid=133246 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
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09:33:41 <esolangs> [[Nebulang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133307&oldid=133305 * PrySigneToFry * (+55)
09:34:21 <wib_jonas> I was wrong above. Postscript core does have a function to request specific paper size. It's a complicated general mechanism accessed through the setpagedevice builtin. So the printer doesn't need to read the magic comments afterall.
09:42:09 <esolangs> [[USO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133308 * Gggfr * (+17) Redirected page to [[(*U]]
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09:53:14 <esolangs> [[USO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133309&oldid=133308 * Gggfr * (-17) Blanked the page
09:53:52 <esolangs> [[OSU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133310 * Gggfr * (+17) Redirected page to [[(*U]]
09:54:44 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133311&oldid=133303 * Gggfr * (+0)
09:55:48 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133312&oldid=133311 * Gggfr * (-2)
10:01:03 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133313&oldid=133312 * Gggfr * (+40)
10:02:12 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133314&oldid=133313 * Gggfr * (+34)
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10:22:05 <fizzie> It's (presumably) not using PostScript file comments to do it, but work has pretty much switched to "follow-me" printing, where you don't specify the printer when printing the file (though in our case you do pick one of three vaguely continent-level print queues, AMER, EMEA or APAC), you just walk to the printer, badge in, and release the print job.
10:22:15 <fizzie> Slightly less efficient in that it can't start printing before you reach the printer, but OTOH it automatically handles that privacy use case, plus you don't send things to print in the wrong building any more.
10:23:36 <fizzie> Wonder how much the printers get used anyway. Personally I think my primary use case is to print out boarding passes just in case the phone decides to give up the ghost during a trip.
10:24:04 <fizzie> But I'm sure there's other roles that involve more printing maybe.
10:34:14 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133315&oldid=132562 * SquirrelCorn * (+337)
10:34:35 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I personally don't use them much, so I don't even have a printer at home, and go to photocopy stores when I occasionally want to print something. But my work does use printers a lot, for printing various administrative and technical documentation and also technical drawings, including in color and up to I think A2 size
10:37:57 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133316&oldid=133314 * Gggfr * (+124)
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10:38:38 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/w/talk/user/talk/language/language/sandbox/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133317&oldid=126521 * PrySigneToFry * (+461)
10:38:45 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133318&oldid=133215 * PrySigneToFry * (+53)
10:38:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/w/talk/user/talk/language/language/sandbox/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133319&oldid=133317 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
10:39:14 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133320&oldid=133316 * Gggfr * (+38)
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10:39:42 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133321&oldid=133320 * Gggfr * (-6) /* examples */
10:39:51 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133322&oldid=133315 * SquirrelCorn * (+396)
10:40:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133323&oldid=133263 * PrySigneToFry * (+90)
10:41:07 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133324&oldid=133321 * Gggfr * (+55)
10:41:26 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133325&oldid=133324 * Gggfr * (+2)
10:42:12 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133326&oldid=133325 * Gggfr * (+5)
10:42:56 <fizzie> I've seen some of those big plotters at the office, I guess design people use them sometimes.
10:45:39 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133327&oldid=133326 * Gggfr * (+261)
10:48:00 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133328&oldid=133277 * PkmnQ * (-184) /* General languages */
10:48:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133329&oldid=132487 * PrySigneToFry * (+532)
10:48:36 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133330&oldid=133327 * Gggfr * (+62)
10:49:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133331&oldid=133329 * PrySigneToFry * (+29)
10:51:08 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133332&oldid=133322 * SquirrelCorn * (+468)
10:55:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ting Vit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133333&oldid=110781 * PrySigneToFry * (+376)
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11:03:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133334&oldid=133289 * PkmnQ * (+144) sure
11:07:00 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133335&oldid=133330 * Gggfr * (+74)
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11:44:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133336&oldid=133157 * Unicodes * (+29) /* edited test for no reason */
12:03:35 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133337&oldid=133335 * Gggfr * (-401)
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12:05:33 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133338&oldid=133337 * Gggfr * (+48)
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12:10:43 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133339 * Unicodes * (+695) Created page with " is an Esolang similar to C, but every character is different. == Syntax / Limitations == If the interpreter finds any alphabetic character it will throw an error The interpreter replaces: * with a * with b * with c * with d * with e * with f * with g * with h * wi
12:11:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133340&oldid=133306 * Unicodes * (+9)
12:11:38 <esolangs> [[User:Unicodes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133341&oldid=130137 * Unicodes * (+9)
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12:28:56 <esolangs> [[Not]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133342 * Gggfr * (+571) Created page with "'''Not''' is a esolang made for one task. It only has a few rules == the whole thing == Typing out a 1 will push a 1 onto the stack. A + will combine the top to elements on the stack and a = will duplicate it. And # will pop the top of the stack off and print it. Then [] will
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12:33:25 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133343&oldid=133342 * Gggfr * (+91)
12:34:25 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133344&oldid=133343 * Gggfr * (+17)
12:41:02 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133345&oldid=133338 * Gggfr * (+143)
12:44:53 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133346&oldid=133345 * Gggfr * (+85) /* examples */
12:47:38 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133347&oldid=133346 * Gggfr * (-3) /* examples */
12:48:10 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133348&oldid=133347 * Gggfr * (-31)
12:48:44 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133349&oldid=133348 * Gggfr * (+44)
13:14:05 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133350&oldid=133349 * Gggfr * (+39)
13:20:58 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133351&oldid=133350 * Gggfr * (+28)
13:32:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cantor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133352 * Gggfr * (+141) Created page with "Is this turing complete? Is it even close to being turing complete? ~~~~"
13:41:17 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133353&oldid=133210 * Gggfr * (+6)
13:45:17 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133354&oldid=133353 * Gggfr * (+60)
13:47:02 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133355&oldid=133354 * Gggfr * (+3) /* examples */
13:48:13 <esolangs> [[2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133356&oldid=133355 * Gggfr * (+3) /* other syntax */
13:49:15 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133357&oldid=133332 * SquirrelCorn * (-3)
13:52:28 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133358&oldid=133357 * SquirrelCorn * (+93)
13:52:49 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133359&oldid=133358 * SquirrelCorn * (+9)
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14:25:45 <esolangs> [[Sclipting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133360&oldid=72777 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
14:26:57 <esolangs> [[Shinda Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133361&oldid=132809 * TheCanon2 * (+31) Added new category
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15:27:24 <esolangs> [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133362&oldid=131390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) Categories
15:32:34 <esolangs> [[Not]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133363&oldid=133344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Categories
15:34:08 <esolangs> [[$!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133364&oldid=133259 * TheCanon2 * (+61) Added it to more categories.
15:34:11 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133365&oldid=133339 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) Categories
15:36:54 <esolangs> [[None,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133366&oldid=132536 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) Categories
15:42:12 <esolangs> [[Gate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133367&oldid=132057 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) Categories
15:43:26 <esolangs> [[(*U]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133368&oldid=133351 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Categories
15:44:16 <esolangs> [[YNTDAE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133369&oldid=133287 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Fix category
15:47:46 <esolangs> [[ArrayFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133370&oldid=100427 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+103) Categories
15:51:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133371&oldid=133266 * Tommyaweosme * (+249)
15:53:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133372&oldid=133336 * Tommyaweosme * (+46)
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16:01:40 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133373&oldid=133368 * Xff * (-8)
16:02:05 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133374&oldid=133373 * Xff * (+5) /* examples */
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16:11:02 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133375&oldid=132327 * Xff * (-6) /* examples */
16:15:04 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133376&oldid=133293 * Xff * (-3)
16:15:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:(,!)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133377 * Xff * (+0) Created blank page
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17:08:27 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133378&oldid=133363 * Xff * (+18)
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17:34:30 <esolangs> [[Logig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133379 * Xff * (+1668) Created page with "'''logig''' is a esolang made by [[User:Yayimhere|Yayimhere]] when he realized that <code>+</code> and <code>-</code> can be used as <code>1</code> and <code>0</code> in logic gates. the name comes from a misspelling of logic when searching == memory == memory is stored in a
17:34:40 <esolangs> [[Logig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133380&oldid=133379 * Xff * (+1)
17:40:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133381&oldid=133323 * Ais523 * (+605) /* You're going too far */ an explanation
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18:14:01 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133382&oldid=132987 * ApisNecros * (+71) /* Variants of deadfish */ Add dead_fish language as a variant of deadfish
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18:23:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133383&oldid=133372 * Unicodes * (+51)
18:30:16 <fizzie> Hmm. Tried to re-enable stalker mode since I updated the HTTP server library version, but now it just fails with a "code 1006" ("no reason") in the browser, and "unexpected websocket protocol: (none)" on the server.
18:30:31 <fizzie> Maybe the API has changed subtly enough to not fail the build but still make it not work.
18:37:22 <fizzie> Looks like maybe you need to now pre-register the subprotocols used when setting up a handler.
18:44:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133384&oldid=133383 * Unname4798 * (+160)
18:46:13 <fizzie> Now it just segfaults on a connection attempt, which is hardly an improvement.
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19:02:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: on the plus side, while https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/ gives an 502 error, the temporary file viewer https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/cmd.whatis and the repo browser https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip are working, and `fetch is working too
19:02:35 <b_jonas> so most of the functionality for HackEso is there
19:02:45 <b_jonas> I personally don't care much about stalker mode
19:03:16 <b_jonas> (except in as much that it shouldn't crash the whole channel logs webserver making the logs unavailable)
19:09:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cantor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133385&oldid=133352 * PkmnQ * (+842) I think this works as a Turing-completeness proof
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19:19:40 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133386 * Xff * (+787) Created page with "'''the shift machine''' a form of imaginary machine invented by [[User:Yayimhere|Yayimhere]] to translate into [[OSU]](also known as [[(*U]]). the shift machine runs in two diffrent modes (the "loop" mode and the normal mode) and uses a tape to store data. there ar
19:22:41 <esolangs> [[Shift machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133387 * Xff * (+31) Redirected page to [[The shift machine]]
19:23:44 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133388&oldid=133386 * Xff * (+32)
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19:28:26 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133389&oldid=133388 * Xff * (+44)
19:32:09 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133390&oldid=133389 * Xff * (+26)
19:36:31 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133391&oldid=133390 * Xff * (+160)
19:39:26 <korvo> I'm trying to get a sense of when people have used BF for BB. I found these two Code Golf pages https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/4813/123693 and https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/103684/123693 which call it "Busy Brain Beaver". Any other good collections of these?
19:51:20 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133392&oldid=133391 * Gggfr * (+130)
19:54:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gggfr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133393 * Gggfr * (+0) Created blank page
19:55:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133394 * Gggfr * (+0) Created blank page
19:55:53 <b_jonas> "Busy Brain Beaver" makes sense, you don't want your site to mention bestiality or incest porn explicitly
19:57:06 <fizzie> Looks like someone's started a wiki page at https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_busy_beaver (with a different definition: runs the most `.` instructions, rather than for the most steps), but not really done much there.
19:58:00 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133395&oldid=133392 * Xff * (+194)
20:00:14 <korvo> Ooh, those would be Beeping Busy Brains. The Beeping BB problem is quite interesting because it turns out to be second-order; it's uncomputable even if you have an oracle for BB.
20:02:11 <esolangs> [[The shift machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133396&oldid=133395 * Xff * (+472)
20:06:08 <b_jonas> korvo: in "oracle for BB", do you mean the version of BB that asks for the highest number of execution steps that a program can run, or the one that asks for the farthest the head can be when the program halts, or something else?
20:06:43 <b_jonas> the first sounds unlikely in context
20:08:29 <korvo> It's the former. Fix the number of states, and let BB be the maximum number of steps for halting TMs. We'll let BBB be the maximum number of steps before a TM enters a designated "beep" state for the last time.
20:08:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanabi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133397 * Xff * (+135) Created page with "on turing completeness do you think it is? im not really sure myself~~~~"
20:08:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133398&oldid=133397 * Xff * (+3)
20:09:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Xff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133399 * Xff * (+0) Created blank page
20:09:26 <korvo> Then BBB is uncomputable even with oracle for BB. For note that some machines may beep after BB's number of steps, but yet not halt; they beep and then enter an infinite loop.
20:10:18 <korvo> We can define the variant of BBB which counds how many times a machine beeps, just like how BB can be defined in terms of the number of non-zero symbols on tape.
20:12:51 <b_jonas> ok, so the beeping has a definition that's really different from all the variants I've met
20:13:04 <korvo> But note that conversely BBB bounds BB; every Busy Beaver must halt before the final beep. Suppose not; then such a Beaver could have its final state designated as the beep, contradicting the value of BBB.
20:14:11 <korvo> No worries; I literally didn't grok this nuance until earlier this year, foolishly thinking that beeping was yet another Rice-complete property. But no, Turing degrees are real and we can manipulate them in real-world computers.
20:15:35 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133400&oldid=133300 * Xff * (+295) /* APL x BASIC x MM */
20:26:54 <fizzie> Testing, testing, 1, 2, 3. (Think I got it fixed now.)
20:27:15 <fizzie> Seems to work. If it still hangs up the log server every few days I'll just disable it again.
20:30:14 <fizzie> Turns out the problem was, CivetWeb needs the `struct mg_websocket_subprotocols *` value that specifies the accepted protocols to remain valid forever. This was "documented" by a "must be static data" comment in the websocket *example* code, but of course not mentioned in the headers that serve as documentation for the API.
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00:02:46 <esolangs> [[Minimized BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133401&oldid=117756 * TheCanon2 * (+23) Fixed a typo and added a category.
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01:26:52 <esolangs> [[Schacalic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133402&oldid=131668 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
01:27:51 <esolangs> [[fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133403&oldid=126667 * PrySigneToFry * (+736)
01:28:04 <esolangs> [[fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133404&oldid=133403 * PrySigneToFry * (+6)
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01:46:13 <esolangs> [[BallisticScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133405&oldid=120556 * Microbyte * (-39)
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02:04:10 <esolangs> [[Schrodinger's fish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133406 * BestCoder * (+412) Created page with "this is combination of deadfish and alivefish == commands == s, square S, square root, also works for negative numbers i, increment I, integral the previous values and the thing will be that d, decrement D, double the thing o, output O, input == test
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02:24:11 <esolangs> [[Tictactoe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133407 * BestCoder * (+385) Created page with "tictactoe uses tictactoe moves are reperesented as a number: 123 456 789 and you can never place a thing where something is there so you should try to do something else == rules == if you win, 1 if you lose, 0 if you tie, 0.5 base 3 == how to do stuff == b
02:26:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133408&oldid=133384 * Tommyaweosme * (-52) removed test to prevent servers lagging up or whatever it is they think will happen if they leave stuff on the sandbox
02:39:39 <esolangs> [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133409&oldid=131310 * PrySigneToFry * (+92)
02:42:13 <esolangs> [[16 bytes :P]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133410&oldid=128432 * PrySigneToFry * (+52)
04:15:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133411&oldid=133265 * PrySigneToFry * (+17)
04:16:31 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133412&oldid=132897 * PrySigneToFry * (+99)
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05:45:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133413&oldid=133408 * Unname4798 * (+141)
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07:58:02 <cpressey> I love the smell of worldwide IT outage in the morning.
08:04:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133414&oldid=133413 * Unicodes * (+2)
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08:11:31 <esolangs> [[User:Unicodes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133415&oldid=133341 * Unicodes * (+490)
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08:14:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133416&oldid=133411 * Unicodes * (+53) /* Commands */
08:16:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133417&oldid=133416 * Unicodes * (+83)
08:18:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133418&oldid=133417 * Unicodes * (+58)
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08:20:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133419&oldid=133418 * Unicodes * (+75)
08:24:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133420&oldid=133419 * Unicodes * (+116)
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08:28:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133421&oldid=133420 * Unicodes * (+160)
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08:37:25 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133422&oldid=132988 * Gilbert189 * (-41604)
08:40:24 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133423&oldid=133422 * Gilbert189 * (+41604) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133422|133422]] by [[Special:Contributions/Gilbert189|Gilbert189]] ([[User talk:Gilbert189|talk]]) goofed up
08:40:43 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133424&oldid=133423 * Gilbert189 * (+9453) /* Agent-based esolangs */ oops
08:41:33 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133425&oldid=133424 * Gilbert189 * (-4560) /* Agent-based esolangs */ oops 2
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09:01:20 <esolangs> [[Pass a symbol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133426&oldid=133130 * Gggfr * (+60) /* examples */
09:14:14 <esolangs> [[Pass a symbol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133427&oldid=133426 * Gggfr * (+558)
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09:16:04 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133428&oldid=133248 * Gggfr * (+76)
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09:24:55 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133429&oldid=133428 * Gggfr * (+1) /* Buffalo! */
09:25:21 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133430&oldid=133429 * Gggfr * (-1) /* Buffalo! */
09:37:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133431&oldid=133414 * Unicodes * (+228)
09:39:35 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133432&oldid=130924 * Unicodes * (+65) /* Examples */
09:42:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133433&oldid=133421 * Unicodes * (+37)
09:42:47 <esolangs> [[Pass a symbol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133434&oldid=133427 * Gggfr * (+130) /* How It Works */
09:43:43 <esolangs> [[Pass a symbol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133435&oldid=133434 * Gggfr * (+0) /* How It Works */
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09:50:14 <esolangs> [[Self-repeat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133436 * Unicodes * (+402) Created page with "Program by [[User:Unicodes|Unicodes]] = Overview = This program gets a number from the user, let's say X, and prints X, X times {| class="wikitable" |+ I/O |- ! Input !! Output |- | 0 || "" |- | 1 || "1" |- | 2 || "22" |- | 5 || "55555" |- | 10 || "10101010101010
09:50:48 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133437&oldid=133432 * Unicodes * (-13) /* self-repeat */
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09:54:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133438&oldid=133433 * Unicodes * (+43)
09:54:41 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133439&oldid=133400 * Gggfr * (-294) /* function machine thing */
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09:58:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133440&oldid=133438 * Unicodes * (+55)
09:58:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133441&oldid=133440 * Unicodes * (+1)
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10:03:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133442&oldid=133441 * Unicodes * (+50)
10:05:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133443&oldid=133442 * PrySigneToFry * (+202)
10:11:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133444&oldid=133443 * PrySigneToFry * (+457)
10:12:34 <esolangs> [[Func()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133445 * Gggfr * (+1532) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=Func[]}} Func[] is a esolang inspired by [[lambda calculus]]. Idk. Oh also [[User:Yayimhere]] made it == syntax == Func[] has a single thing it can do: F[x y] This creates a function f that takes input as x and will output y. So if we pass f the letter
10:12:51 <esolangs> [[Func()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133446&oldid=133445 * Gggfr * (+6)
10:16:55 <esolangs> [[(*U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133447&oldid=133374 * Gggfr * (-61) /* examples */
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10:19:39 <esolangs> [[Func()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133448&oldid=133446 * Gggfr * (+87)
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10:22:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133449&oldid=133334 * Gggfr * (-3) /* Interpreter */
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10:29:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133450&oldid=127881 * PrySigneToFry * (+447)
10:33:37 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133451&oldid=133318 * PrySigneToFry * (+247)
10:35:37 <esolangs> [[Func()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133452&oldid=133448 * Gggfr * (+593)
10:35:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133453&oldid=133331 * PrySigneToFry * (+22)
10:36:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133454&oldid=133431 * PrySigneToFry * (-570) When you completed your test, you should delete them immediately.
10:37:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133455&oldid=133454 * PrySigneToFry * (-36)
10:46:27 <esolangs> [[Func()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133456&oldid=133452 * Gggfr * (+375)
10:58:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133457&oldid=133381 * PrySigneToFry * (+477) /* About BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX WAR */ new section
11:02:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:AqTsshytdjyjdfgfhgdftftvftvcftvhfhvfhycyfhbfthvfthxtgxdgdx.png]]"
11:11:05 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133459 * Gggfr * (+1323) Created page with "'''()NEST()''' is a very simple to command esolang made by [[User:Yayimhere|yayimhere]] when he was bored == how it works == There are two commands: ( and ) These commands well do stuff. If a <code>(</code> Has a <code>)</code> To the right of it, it will copy itself li
11:12:25 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133460&oldid=117794 * PrySigneToFry * (+335)
11:13:52 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133461&oldid=133459 * Gggfr * (+102)
11:14:17 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133462&oldid=133461 * Gggfr * (+23)
11:15:40 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133463&oldid=133462 * Gggfr * (+45)
11:16:20 <esolangs> [[-25 bytes (O o)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133464&oldid=126982 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
11:17:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133465 * PrySigneToFry * (+364) /* I think this can add even more commands, not only , , , and . */ new section
11:20:33 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133466&oldid=133463 * Gggfr * (+244)
11:23:33 <esolangs> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133467&oldid=119786 * Gggfr * (+26) /* Relation to esoteric programming */
11:29:05 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133468&oldid=133466 * Gggfr * (+180)
11:30:12 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133469&oldid=133468 * Gggfr * (+65) /* examples */
11:36:47 <esolangs> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133470&oldid=133467 * Gggfr * (-26)
11:37:22 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133471&oldid=133469 * Gggfr * (+208)
11:39:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Gggfr * uploaded "[[File:()NEST() logo.png]]"
11:40:32 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133473&oldid=133471 * Gggfr * (+54)
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12:18:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133474&oldid=133455 * Unname4798 * (+43)
12:18:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133475&oldid=133474 * Unname4798 * (-6)
12:19:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133476&oldid=133475 * Unname4798 * (+1)
12:20:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133477&oldid=133476 * Unname4798 * (-2)
12:20:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133478&oldid=133477 * Unname4798 * (-2)
12:21:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133479&oldid=133478 * Unname4798 * (+6)
12:28:35 <fizzie> How can such a simple thing as the sandbox generate this much friction?
12:30:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133480&oldid=133479 * Fizzie * (-16) Make instructions visible again.
12:31:15 <wib_jonas> fizzie: no no, the friction is there regardless, the sandbox is just successfully pulling it in so that more valuable pages are affected less often
12:33:15 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133481&oldid=133473 * Gggfr * (+4) /* examples */
12:37:57 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133482&oldid=133481 * Gggfr * (+81) /* how it works */
12:42:12 <esolangs> [[Bring to another]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133483 * Gggfr * (+357) Created page with "'''Bring to another''' is a esolang made by [[User:Yayimhere]] that he forgot about and is know with another person trying to reverse engineer it. There is both hello world, rule 110(triangle), a [[Truth-machine]] and more. == external resources == A md document
12:48:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133484&oldid=133444 * Tommyaweosme * (+425)
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12:51:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133485&oldid=133453 * Tommyaweosme * (+67)
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13:12:10 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133486&oldid=133439 * Gggfr * (+28)
13:15:58 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133487&oldid=133486 * Gggfr * (+290) /* math in ()NEST() */
13:16:46 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133488&oldid=133487 * Gggfr * (-8) /* math in ()NEST() */
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13:32:40 <fizzie> I guess that's probably true.
13:37:11 <ais523> the reason I have become so adamant about cleaning the sandbox is that if you leave things there, eventually people become attached to them (?) and edit-war to keep them in
13:37:46 <ais523> so in theory, this is my/our fault for not setting expectations for how the sandbox should be used – but I don't think failing to anticipate that is too unreasonable a mistake
13:38:02 <ais523> Wikipedia has a sandbox-cleaning bot, maybe this is the reason
13:39:02 <ais523> also I am not used to stalker mode working again
13:39:32 <ais523> (I have been using the stalker mode *page* for ages as an easy way to go to the most recent part of the logs)
13:43:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133489&oldid=133398 * Ais523 * (+702) it's pretty easily TC
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13:44:26 <ais523> the Crowdstrike-induced Windows outage has been major enough to not just make the front page of BBC News, but to be given a big headline that pushes all other stories below the fold
13:44:42 <ais523> this is normally only done for extremely big news stories
13:47:35 <impomatic> It's pretty big :-) I work for a pretty large international, and everything was down worldwide for us for 6 hours this morning!
13:48:22 <ais523> needing to reboot every computer in a large organisation manually can potentially be hugely difficult
13:48:49 <ais523> IIRC, Facebook once had an IT outage which needed physical access to fix but also locked employees out of the building, which wasn't a great combination
13:49:43 <ais523> I can't remember the exact date, but that seems like approximately the right timeframe
13:49:45 <cpressey> Well at least "Crowdstrike" is finally living up to its name. The crowd has been soundly dtruck.
13:50:13 <int-e> The company name did strike me as odd indeed.
13:50:27 <ais523> it is a strange name, it sounds more like the sort of thing an author would give to a villainous organisation in a film than a name a company would choose for itself
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13:50:51 <impomatic> Sounds like the name of ransomware, not a antivirus company.
13:52:49 <impomatic> Did anyone download a copy of Esowar while it was available? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esowar (I ask every so often, maybe someone has a copy!)
13:53:28 <ais523> I remember the last time you asked, but sadly I had a copy neither then nor now
13:54:52 <int-e> Crowdstrike did threaten that "62 minutes could bring your business down"
13:55:24 <int-e> e.g. here https://www.crowdstrike.com/en-au/
13:55:32 <impomatic> Someone should archive this stuff. (Yes, I know I'm someone, but I've already taken on more archiving than I can handle!)
13:55:59 <ais523> the wiki was created at the same time as an archive, originally both run by the same person
13:56:09 <int-e> "When your data, reputation, and revenue are at stake, trust the pioneer in adversary intelligence." . o O ( s/adversary/adversarial/ )
13:56:13 <ais523> the archive was subsequently moved to Github, which is likely more stable
13:56:22 <ais523> you might be able to request push access (or just fork it)
13:56:37 <ais523> https://github.com/graue/esofiles
13:57:36 <impomatic> A some point I need to learn how to use git / github properly!
13:58:14 <ais523> git and github are actually mostly unrelated (apart from github being primarily based around using git)
13:58:34 <ais523> you can use git without github, and this is probably a useful skill to have in modern-day development as most companies/projects have standardised on using it
13:59:17 <ais523> I generally try to avoid using github, although that isn't always possible because, e.g., many projects use it to host their bug tracker
14:02:29 <impomatic> I also need to read up on how to use CVS properly. Loads of Sourceforge projects have the latest code hidden away in CVS which they've deprecated.
14:06:02 <ais523> git is a bit unintuitive to learn – what seems to have happened is that it was designed as a sort of low-level language for constructing version control systems, but then people started using it directly
14:06:15 <ais523> a similar story to BANCStar, although the underlying language isn't quite as bad
14:06:35 <esolangs> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133490&oldid=125170 * PrySigneToFry * (+72)
14:07:50 <impomatic> I've got one of those Milk-V Risc-V single-board computers arriving tomorrow to play with.
14:08:06 <impomatic> Not sure what I'm going to do with it yet.
14:13:06 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133491&oldid=133236 * TheCanon2 * (+23)
14:17:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated Julia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133492&oldid=123998 * PrySigneToFry * (+377)
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14:19:47 <esolangs> [[Translated C++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133493&oldid=133276 * PrySigneToFry * (+31)
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14:27:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated ORK/PSTF Again]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133494 * PrySigneToFry * (+311) /* Why don't "Translated ORK/MihaiEso Again"? */ new section
14:28:35 <wib_jonas> front page of BBC news => probably because the news editors' and journalist's workflow was disrupted by the outage too
14:29:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133495&oldid=130510 * PrySigneToFry * (+341) /* Every program languages that been horribly translated: */ new section
14:31:42 <wib_jonas> ais523: that's just half of the problem with git. the other half is that since it trusts sha-1 hashes, you can't use it to safely index files with untrusted contents, but many companies do in fact use it that way. git was originally designed to store linux kernel source code or similar, where this isn't a problem.
14:32:02 <esolangs> [['xxx' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133496&oldid=118917 * PrySigneToFry * (+18)
14:33:40 <ais523> wib_jonas: I vaguely remember some major Git user (either kernel.org or Github) saying that the SHA-1 collisions aren't so much of a problem because if a file with that hash already exists in the repo, git will assume that it's the correct file for the hash and not look at a newer one
14:33:52 <ais523> there's almost certainly still some possible attack there, but it makes attacks more difficult
14:34:10 <wib_jonas> the third half is that git doesn't conveniently support using a repo without downloading the whole thing, you can't easily select just some files or some revisions and dynamically change the selection.
14:34:37 <ais523> also places like Github are rejecting commits that contain files that seem to have been constructed as an SHA-1 collision (apparently it's possible to figure out even if you can't see the file it collides with)
14:35:20 <wib_jonas> this means you can't use it well to store large amounts of data in a git repo, but many companies do use git repos to store large amounts of data
14:35:28 <wib_jonas> ais523: that doesn't sound very reassuring
14:36:40 <wib_jonas> in fact it sounds like a false reassurance, because then if you learn the contents of a file (that someone made but hasn't yet pushed) before it's pushed to a repo, then you can construct a hash collision, push it to the repo, and nobody will get any error message that the files differ, the push will just silently work but the actual contents
14:36:43 <ais523> it is only slightly reassuring, I still have concerns
14:36:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:BF+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133497&oldid=117635 * PrySigneToFry * (+451) /* Suggested command
14:37:36 <ais523> wib_jonas: that attack doesn't work, you need a second preimage rather than a collision
14:38:28 <wib_jonas> sure, but you can probably construct second preimages by now, or will be able to in a few years
14:39:18 <wib_jonas> and even if you can only construct collisions there are trickier attacks that you can do
14:40:02 <wib_jonas> I hope git manages to finalize their fix for this
14:41:24 <esolangs> [[XRay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133498&oldid=133241 * PrySigneToFry * (+127)
14:47:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133499&oldid=132796 * PrySigneToFry * (+41) /* AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH: wdnmd */ new section
14:47:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133500&oldid=133499 * PrySigneToFry * (+254)
14:49:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133501&oldid=133500 * PrySigneToFry * (+146)
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14:53:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esolangsdotorg * New user account
14:54:17 <ais523> hmm, I may have to block that one for an unacceptable username
14:55:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Esolangsdotorg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133502 * Ais523 * (+329) please change your username
14:56:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Esolangsdotorg]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): Unacceptable username: looks like an official account when it isn't feel free to create a new account with a less official-looking username
14:57:25 <ais523> always a bit worrying doing that – I need to make sure I change the settings from the default in such a way as to allow the user to create another account to get around the block (normally blocked users aren't allowed to do that for obvious reasons)
14:59:33 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133503 * TheCanon2 * (+1016) Created page $+-?
15:05:48 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133504&oldid=128633 * PrySigneToFry * (+433)
15:06:01 <ais523> hmm, that one would be interesting without the goto instructions (and with an implicit loop instead), although it might need to test the other register rather than the current one in that case
15:09:03 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133505&oldid=133504 * PrySigneToFry * (+259)
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15:42:42 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133506&oldid=133503 * TheCanon2 * (+1068) Completed the article
15:44:38 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133507&oldid=133506 * TheCanon2 * (+34) Added a Cat
15:52:05 <cpressey> ais523: Am I misremembering, or did you invent a memory allocation algorithm recently? I ask because I invented a memory allocation algorithm recently, but I think I was half-asleep, so I think it doesn't make sense (I'm not sure I even remember it now - perhaps I should try)
15:56:29 <cpressey> My idea was basically to bisect memory. So it's basically a binary tree, but we don't have to store pointers to children. If the client asks for n bytes of memory, you walk down the tree until you find a node sized at least 2*n, and you split it in 2 and return the pointer to the so-far-unused-half of that node.
15:56:47 <ais523> cpressey: I told this channel about one a while ago, I don't think it's "recent" by this point
15:57:11 <ais523> I think that bisection algorithm has been used before, it's one I've been thinking about
15:57:28 <ais523> it can suffer from fragmentation if the code allocates a lot of objects of the same size, then deallocates every second object
15:57:33 <ais523> (which is not a totally implausible allocation pattern)
15:58:00 <cpressey> What I was wondering was if fragmentation can be mitigated by rotating the nodes in the tree somehow
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15:59:32 <cpressey> You would need to memcpy the individual nodes, but you could set some sort of "mirror flag" on the header of the container node, so that existing addresses still work (assuming "addresses" are paths down the binary tree)
15:59:38 <ais523> after they've been allocated? or allocating them differently?
15:59:49 <ais523> ah, I see, moving them in memory
16:00:15 <cpressey> Walking the tree every time you want to get at a node is not very appealing though
16:00:19 <ais523> I think there has been some experimentation into this sort of thing, but would consider it to be fairly esoteric (except in the case of stop-and-copy garbage collection which does it naturally)
16:01:22 <ais523> you can do things like alternating between allocating forwards and backwards on successive pages, then mapping them over each other if they become fragmented in a way that there are no clashing addresses (the alternating directions increases the chance that that fragmentation pattern will occur)
16:02:20 <cpressey> As long as it wasn't a subconscious ripoff of your "recent" (by which I guess I do mean, months or more ago) idea, I'm happy
16:03:24 <ais523> the allocation strategy is entirely different
16:03:30 <ais523> so unlikely to be an accidental copy
16:03:52 <ais523> it is maybe possible that someone else other than me invented an allocator more recently, and I missed it?
16:04:27 <ais523> I think some of my interest has been in "can we write an async-signal-safe allocator" because that has practical uses for some programs I'd like to write
16:04:46 <ais523> I attempted to do that a while back but got it wrong, AS-safety is really unintuitive
16:09:26 <cpressey> "async-signal-safe code" sounds like "lockfree algorithm except even worse"
16:10:51 <cpressey> Although (after a quick web search) maybe not
16:20:44 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133508&oldid=133507 * TheCanon2 * (+4) fixed grammatical error
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16:40:39 <b_jonas> ais523: if only the username is the problem then you can rename the user instead of block, that won't stop them from creating another user
16:44:43 <b_jonas> cpressey: it sounds like you want TAOCP 2.5.C which describes the allocation and freeing algorithms for the buddy-block memory allocation
16:44:53 <ais523> b_jonas: it wouldn't prevent them from creating the same user again, though
16:45:00 <ais523> it's much better to just set the block settings correctly
16:54:03 <ais523> also, renaming someone's account without their permission is just confusing, e.g. they will probably use the old name when trying to log in, so they won't see messages directed at them as those will be under the new name, and might be told that their account doesn't exist
16:57:13 <fizzie> ais523: By the way, there's an https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Esolang as well.
16:59:22 <ais523> that can be interpreted (and the user page seems to suggest) that it's named after the concept of an esoteric programming language, rather than about the site itself
16:59:40 <ais523> I would block if it were being used in a way that seemed official, but it isn't
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17:05:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:-5 bytes ;)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133509 * PkmnQ * (+197) Created page with "If I made an interpreter in [[90]] that overwrites specifically 5 bytes of another program, would that count as -5 bytes? --~~~~"
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17:12:34 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133510&oldid=133488 * Gggfr * (+34) /* math in ()NEST() */
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17:25:22 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133511&oldid=133482 * Gggfr * (-145)
17:26:01 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133512&oldid=133511 * Gggfr * (+4) /* examples */
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17:27:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:()NEST()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133513 * Gggfr * (+144) Created page with "Im working on a esolang that could maybe be translated into ()NEST() --~~~~"
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19:18:25 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133514&oldid=133510 * Gggfr * (-196) /* math in ()NEST() */
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19:37:35 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133515&oldid=133512 * Gggfr * (+88)
19:39:15 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133516&oldid=133515 * Gggfr * (+4) /* how it works */
19:40:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133517&oldid=133514 * Gggfr * (+7) /* math in ()NEST() */
19:40:32 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133518&oldid=133517 * Gggfr * (+4) /* math in ()NEST() */
19:42:23 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133519&oldid=133518 * Gggfr * (+29) /* math in ()NEST() */
19:45:57 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133520&oldid=133519 * Gggfr * (+28) /* math in ()NEST() */
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19:54:25 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133521&oldid=133520 * Gggfr * (+392) /* math in ()NEST() */
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20:23:57 <esolangs> [[Ns2dL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133522 * Gggfr * (+1392) Created page with "'''Ns2dL''' is a esolang made for the sake of making a 2d land that does NOT use a stack. Ns2dL usus a a list because yes. Oh also its made by [[User:Yayimhere|Yayimhere]] ==memory == Jmemory is stored in a list. There is also a buffer that stores indexes for the list. ==
20:57:39 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133523&oldid=133430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Alphabetise
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21:08:02 <esolangs> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133524&oldid=84321 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Fix formatting
21:11:30 <esolangs> [[Ns2dL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133525&oldid=133522 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) Categories
21:12:47 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133526&oldid=133516 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Categories
21:16:41 <esolangs> [[BF+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133527&oldid=110686 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Categories
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22:23:28 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133528&oldid=132732 * EvyLah * (+62) idea page
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22:28:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133529&oldid=133340 * TheCanon2 * (+11) Added $+-?
22:41:00 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133530&oldid=133508 * TheCanon2 * (+43)
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22:54:27 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/ideas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133531 * EvyLah * (+3525) page creation, added a start to a potential language
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23:01:13 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1305.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
23:01:54 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133532&oldid=133531 * EvyLah * (+178) fluid list
23:15:54 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133533&oldid=133530 * TheCanon2 * (+230) added addition
23:24:22 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133534&oldid=133533 * TheCanon2 * (+88) added subtraction program
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23:40:40 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133535&oldid=133534 * TheCanon2 * (-118) Wrote a far shorter addition program by removing unnecessary code
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00:44:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Metatape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133536 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) Created page with "cool"
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02:24:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:UTC+8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133537&oldid=119296 * PrySigneToFry * (+322)
02:30:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133538&oldid=133484 * PrySigneToFry * (+772)
02:35:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133539&oldid=133538 * PrySigneToFry * (+320)
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02:57:22 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133540&oldid=133535 * TheCanon2 * (+310) info
03:47:45 <esolangs> [[Tau-Alpha-Upsilon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133541 * PrySigneToFry * (+1010) Created page with "{{AKA|title=}} {{WIP}} Tau-Alpha-Upsilon, or simply TAU(pronounces <nowiki>[tay]</nowiki>), is designed by PSTF and it is to expand Deadfish. == Commands == This didn't uses accumulator, but a memory. {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Table in 1.0 versi
03:49:28 <zzo38> Note that "Pokemon TCG" is a different game from "Pokemon", and I think there are enough people (myself being one of them) who can play "Pokemon". It is two players, and instead of taking turns, both players select their commands simultaneously secretly and then after both players do then they are executed in the order by speed and priority. You win if all of opponent's pokemons have 0 HP before all of yours have 0 HP.
03:50:01 <zzo38> Also, I think it would be worth to add some descriptions (or links to descriptions) of rules of some of the games mentioned there; this way more people will be able to discuss them.
03:51:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133542&oldid=133529 * PrySigneToFry * (+67)
03:51:45 <zzo38> (This might be possible even if the game does not work on your computer; you can also make up your own. Some might be able to be made in uxn/varvara or Free Hero Mesh or something else. Specifically, uxn/varvara is more portable and should work on any computer. However, I had tried to implement some of these game by myself based on what I known about them, "So Broken" game in Free Hero Mesh is one)
03:53:52 <zzo38> (However, I think someone mentioned a problem with my implementation, that the player is not supposed to move if there is a box in the same grid cell as the player is at?)
03:58:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133543&oldid=133539 * PrySigneToFry * (+186)
04:00:08 <korvo> Trying to decide whether FRACTRAN is an interesting Busy Beaver target or a distraction. Anybody worked with it before?
04:02:00 <zzo38> (For example, I don't know how is Portal Snake game working, either)
04:07:48 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Game rules]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133544 * Zzo38 * (+1794) Created page with "__FORCETOC__ Any program code in this article (in any programming language) is public domain; in most cases I am the author of this code, even if I had not invented the games listed here. == Sokoban variants == === So Broken === This is a sokoban variant a
04:07:54 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133545&oldid=88061 * Zzo38 * (+28)
04:09:25 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133546&oldid=133545 * Zzo38 * (+19)
04:11:55 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133547&oldid=133546 * Zzo38 * (+18)
04:19:51 <zzo38> Also, I noticed now that the [[Spiral Rise]] article links to the nonexistent article called [[Waterfall Construction Kit]]
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04:34:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133548&oldid=96083 * Salpynx * (+49) /* Input extension */ sign unsigned post
04:36:01 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133549&oldid=87589 * Salpynx * (+34) /* External resources */ cat
04:50:09 <zzo38> Another game I know some people had before (although I don't know if there are any now) is mahjong (although I also know how to play Japanese mahjong, too)
04:52:28 <zzo38> ("oya yakuman" is also relating to mahjong)
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06:11:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck: Free Version]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133550&oldid=127257 * PrySigneToFry * (-15)
06:31:24 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133551&oldid=133412 * PrySigneToFry * (+409)
06:40:03 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck: Free Version]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133552&oldid=133550 * Unname4798 * (+15) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133550|133550]] by [[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|PrySigneToFry]] ([[User talk:PrySigneToFry|talk]])
06:42:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133553&oldid=126855 * Gggfr * (+91) /* my thought */
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06:53:01 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133554&oldid=133521 * Gggfr * (+200)
06:59:29 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133555&oldid=133554 * Gggfr * (+159)
07:09:48 <esolangs> [[PokArena]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133556&oldid=102246 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+287)
07:10:22 <esolangs> [[User:ZachChecksOutEsolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133557 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+54) Created page with "Hello. I check out (and occasionally create) esolangs!"
07:11:32 <esolangs> [[PokArena]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133558&oldid=133556 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+1)
07:21:12 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133559&oldid=107691 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+165)
07:26:48 <esolangs> [[Memescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133560&oldid=74250 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+122)
07:27:46 <esolangs> [[Memescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133561&oldid=133560 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+20)
07:28:05 <esolangs> [[Memescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133562&oldid=133561 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+10)
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07:41:00 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133563&oldid=133555 * Gggfr * (+1935)
07:43:40 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133564&oldid=133563 * Gggfr * (+0) /* backflip x sets */
07:45:29 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133565&oldid=133564 * Gggfr * (+104) /* backflip x sets */
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09:34:51 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133566&oldid=133565 * Gggfr * (+56) /* backflip x sets */
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10:09:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133567&oldid=133566 * Xff * (+4) /* backflip x sets */
10:09:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133568&oldid=133567 * Xff * (+0) /* backflip x sets */
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11:18:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133569&oldid=133553 * PkmnQ * (+2873) /* Some ideas */ new section
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11:32:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133570&oldid=133569 * PkmnQ * (+159) /* Some ideas */
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12:32:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HammyHammerhead * New user account
12:39:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133571&oldid=132983 * HammyHammerhead * (+265) Introductions
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12:48:13 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133572 * HammyHammerhead * (+177) Made the page
12:49:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133573 * HammyHammerhead * (+56) Made the page
12:52:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:HammyHammerhead]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133574 * HammyHammerhead * (+59) Made the page
12:54:17 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133575 * HammyHammerhead * (+124) Made the page
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13:26:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133576&oldid=133570 * PkmnQ * (+278) /* Some ideas */
13:27:34 <esolangs> [[BMOW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133577 * B jonas * (+499) Created page with "'''BMOW''' standing for '''Big Mess o' Wires''' aka Steve Chamberlin is a retrocomputer hardware enthusiast. He created at least three custom CPUs in 1980s hardware. He is also making disk emulators for Apple II and other old Apple computers. Languages: * https://www.big
13:27:52 <esolangs> [[BMOW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133578&oldid=133577 * B jonas * (+8)
13:35:31 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133579&oldid=133131 * Ractangle * (-119) /* Branjunk outputed to the terminal */
13:36:35 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133580&oldid=133579 * Ractangle * (+34) /* See also */
13:37:51 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133581&oldid=133580 * Ractangle * (+15) /* Commands */
13:38:31 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133582&oldid=133581 * Ractangle * (-97) /* Commands */
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14:31:14 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133583&oldid=133279 * Unname4798 * (+14)
14:42:29 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133584&oldid=133540 * TheCanon2 * (+189) Added truth machine
14:50:36 <esolangs> [[RLEflakes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133585 * Unname4798 * (+725) Created page with "RLEflakes is RLE-compressed version of [[branflakes]] == Compression method == 1. Convert branflakes according to this table: <pre> branflakes|RLEflakes + |000 - |001 > |010 < |011 . |100 , |101 [ |110 ]
14:50:53 <esolangs> [[RLEflakes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133586&oldid=133585 * Unname4798 * (+13)
14:51:21 <esolangs> [[RLEflakes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133587&oldid=133586 * Unname4798 * (+1)
14:51:54 <esolangs> [[RLEflakes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133588&oldid=133587 * Unname4798 * (+11)
14:52:11 <esolangs> [[RLEflakes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133589&oldid=133588 * Unname4798 * (+5)
15:06:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sakana]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133590 * TheCanon2 * (+261) Created page with "I, the creator of Sakana, created this page in the hopes that someone will attempt to write an interpreter since no implementation currently exists. I hope that the explanation and example programs are enough. In the meantime, I will post some Python snippets."
15:09:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133591&oldid=133590 * TheCanon2 * (+68)
15:19:08 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133592&oldid=133139 * TheCanon2 * (+93) clarified
15:58:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sakana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133593&oldid=133591 * TheCanon2 * (+676) /* Python snippets */ new section
16:09:18 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133594&oldid=133568 * Xff * (-2) /* BackFlip x sets */
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16:50:34 <esolangs> [[XUS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133595 * Xff * (+906) Created page with "'''XUS''' is a set esolang made by [[User:Yayimhere]] to modify some sets == data == data is stored in sets. a set CAN have copies inside in XUS. a set can be stored as a variable like this: = A {} this will set A to the set <code>{}</code>. this set cannot contain anything el
16:53:24 <esolangs> [[BMOW 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133596 * B jonas * (+10490) probably has lots of errors
16:53:40 <esolangs> [[BMOW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133597&oldid=133578 * B jonas * (+9)
16:54:41 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133598&oldid=133247 * B jonas * (+9) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
16:55:04 <esolangs> [[BMOW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133599&oldid=133597 * B jonas * (-37)
16:57:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133600&oldid=133513 * Xff * (+123)
16:57:46 <esolangs> [[BMOW 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133601&oldid=133596 * B jonas * (+16)
16:58:27 <esolangs> [[BMOW 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133602&oldid=133601 * B jonas * (-1)
17:03:49 <esolangs> [[Bring to another]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133603&oldid=133483 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Stub, categories
17:05:03 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133604&oldid=133559 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Programs */ Fix header
17:05:25 <esolangs> [[Memescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133605&oldid=133562 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Truth Machine */ Close pre
17:07:42 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133606&oldid=133572 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+227) Stub, categories
17:13:18 <esolangs> [[RLEflakes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133607&oldid=133589 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+256) Categories
17:26:30 <esolangs> [[BMOW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133608&oldid=133599 * B jonas * (-2)
17:26:57 <esolangs> [[BMOW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133609&oldid=133608 * B jonas * (+2)
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17:42:08 <esolangs> [[Big Mess o' Wires]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133610 * B jonas * (+18) Redirected page to [[BMOW]]
17:53:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133611&oldid=133542 * Xff * (+15) /* Non-alphabetic */
17:54:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133612&oldid=133611 * Xff * (+10) /* X */
17:56:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133613&oldid=133612 * Xff * (+12) /* L */
17:57:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133614&oldid=133613 * Xff * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
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17:58:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133615&oldid=133614 * Xff * (+20) /* P */
18:00:05 <esolangs> [[Ns2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133616&oldid=133525 * Xff * (-1)
18:00:25 <esolangs> [[Tictactoe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133617&oldid=133407 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) Stub, categories
18:00:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133618&oldid=133615 * Xff * (+12) /* N */
18:01:12 <esolangs> [[BMOW 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133619&oldid=133602 * B jonas * (+28)
18:03:15 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133620&oldid=133618 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
18:06:29 <esolangs> [[Logig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133621&oldid=133380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Lowercase, stub, category
18:06:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133622&oldid=133620 * Xff * (+13) /* C */
18:07:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133623&oldid=133622 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* C */
18:08:58 <esolangs> [[CGOLOE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133624&oldid=132210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) Categories
18:10:06 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133625&oldid=133526 * Xff * (+149)
18:14:21 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133626&oldid=133625 * Xff * (+78)
18:17:13 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133627&oldid=133626 * Xff * (+2)
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18:18:09 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133628&oldid=133627 * Xff * (+0)
18:18:15 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133629&oldid=133623 * B jonas * (+13)
18:19:04 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133630&oldid=132995 * Xff * (+31) /* Examples */
18:19:17 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133631&oldid=133630 * Xff * (+1) /* ()NEST() */
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18:19:41 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133632&oldid=133631 * Xff * (+84) /* ()NEST() */
18:23:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133633&oldid=122628 * Xff * (+202)
18:35:57 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133634&oldid=132035 * Xff * (+283)
18:36:56 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133635&oldid=133634 * Xff * (+38)
18:37:24 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133636&oldid=133635 * Xff * (+1)
18:43:46 <b_jonas> hmm, BMOW's "Tiny CPU" has a confusing name since he later built another CPU "Nibbler" that's even tinier
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18:51:36 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133637&oldid=133584 * TheCanon2 * (+278) Added notes about $+-?s Turing-completeness
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19:12:37 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133638&oldid=133637 * TheCanon2 * (+32) Fixed style
19:13:02 <esolangs> [[!()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133639 * Xff * (+2184) Created page with "'''!()''' is a esolang where what a command does changes based on the cell its on. it was made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == memory == memory is stored in a 5 cell tape with unbounded integers. its circular and one cell(the middle cell) holds a symbol instead of a number that can be
19:13:29 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133640&oldid=133592 * TheCanon2 * (+0) Style
19:13:56 <esolangs> [[Nulla]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133641&oldid=132945 * TheCanon2 * (+3) Style
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19:26:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Robotic smiley face]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133642&oldid=109953 * Xff * (+119)
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19:31:15 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133643&oldid=133628 * Xff * (+46)
19:32:49 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133644&oldid=133643 * Xff * (+6)
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19:33:16 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133645&oldid=133644 * Xff * (-4) /* examples */
19:33:31 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133646&oldid=133632 * Xff * (-79)
19:36:13 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133647&oldid=133375 * Xff * (+10)
19:36:34 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133648&oldid=133646 * Xff * (+11)
19:37:59 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133649&oldid=133645 * Xff * (+104)
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20:27:18 <esolangs> [[Rockstar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133650&oldid=104695 * TheCanon2 * (-31) Cleaned up the article. Marked it as a stub since the article contains little to no information about its syntax.
20:28:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133651&oldid=133371 * Tommyaweosme * (+37)
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21:01:36 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133652&oldid=133648 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Sort
21:05:05 <esolangs> [[!()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133653&oldid=133639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) Categories
21:06:12 <esolangs> [[COPIED!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133654&oldid=132394 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Stub, categories
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21:30:28 <int-e> b_jonas: Yay finally almost done: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/true-mam-wip-wire.png https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/true-mam-wip.png (I overwrote the previous screenshots). Now I just need better central control, which I can mostly copy from my MAM. And then I can think about maybe writing about it... Anyway, it's *mostly* synchronized; there's a part that gets out of sync in the final stages but the...
21:30:34 <int-e> ...desynchronization is bounded by a constant (less than 50, but I haven't worked it out). I could fix that but I believe that would make it produce less during warmup because it increases the path length and thus latency... A fun feature is that it can produce simple shapes (including everything the hub will ever request) at twice the rate. Since I duplicated the assembly part it's a 2 belt...
21:30:40 <int-e> ...TMAM, so it can act as a 4 belt MAM once I have the central control logic done :-) Oh and ticks are around 10ms, haven't seen them go above 12ms, so that's working out great too.
21:30:58 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133655&oldid=133638 * TheCanon2 * (+238) added hello world program
21:32:31 <int-e> I wasted so much time trying to figure out the source of that desynchronization though... I should've found that days ago.
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22:16:25 <esolangs> [[Kvikkalkul]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133656&oldid=113008 * Smjg * (+0) tpyo
22:29:07 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133657&oldid=132640 * TheCanon2 * (+242) Added several of my esolangs to the list
22:35:58 <esolangs> [[Nulla]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133658&oldid=133641 * TheCanon2 * (+207) Added XKCD Random Number
22:37:10 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133659&oldid=133657 * TheCanon2 * (+198) Added Nulla to the list
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23:42:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:User]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133660&oldid=68273 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+285)
23:57:00 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133661 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1057) Created page with "'''''' is a programming language based off of [[Lambda Calculus]] made by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]]. All functions must be named after whole numbers, and functions ca
23:57:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133662&oldid=133661 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+16)
23:57:55 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133663&oldid=133662 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0)
23:58:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133664&oldid=133663 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* computation cals */
23:58:36 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133665&oldid=133664 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* computation cals */
23:59:38 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133666&oldid=133665 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* computation cals */
23:59:50 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133667&oldid=133666 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* computation cals */
00:01:00 <b_jonas> int-e: nice. make sure you test it well when you have the logic.
00:01:14 <b_jonas> how much of the logic do you have already? you say "central" is missing
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00:04:36 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133668&oldid=133667 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+105)
00:04:50 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133669&oldid=133668 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* quirks */
00:05:04 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133670&oldid=133669 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* quirks */
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00:34:58 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133671&oldid=133425 * Gilbert189 * (+1883) /* Smalltalk-like version 2 */
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00:46:36 <ais523> <korvo> Trying to decide whether FRACTRAN is an interesting Busy Beaver target or a distraction. Anybody worked with it before? ← it's basically a counter machine and I've worked with those a lot
00:47:07 <ais523> but, Fractran programs generally only behave sensibly when written in factorized form (e.g. instead of 20/9, you would write 2²×5/3²)
00:47:40 <ais523> I suspect The Waterfall Model is a bit more fundamental (because it compiles trivially into Fractran but not vice versa)
00:48:36 <ais523> both languages become TC off pretty small numbers of fractions/waterclocks (7), but at the expense of using large numbers in the triggers
00:49:52 <ais523> <zzo38> Also, I noticed now that the Spiral Rise article links to the nonexistent article called Waterfall Construction Kit ← Waterfall Construction Kit is an esolang I designed to write one program – I then compiled the program by hand, and because I had written the program I needed, the language itself had neither a specification nor an implementation
00:50:02 <korvo> ais523: That makes sense. Well, my followup question applies to Waterfall just as well. What are the sizes of a Waterfall program? Is it the maximum starting clock and the width/height of the matrix?
00:50:04 <ais523> I only designed just enough of the language to make the porgram work
00:50:22 <ais523> korvo: starting clock, trigger entry, matrix size (the matrix is always square)
00:51:06 <ais523> same thing happens with Fractran: starting value, numerator/denominator size, number of fractions (these directly correspond to the Waterfall concepts in my previous line)
00:53:02 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, excellent. Between the two, it sounds like Waterfall would be the better pick for my Busy Beaver doc; I like nats more than rats, I guess.
00:54:31 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133672&oldid=133655 * TheCanon2 * (+197) Added Disan count
01:00:11 <korvo> ...I'm gonna have to write more than a few programs if I want this project to work. I indexed a lot of Brainfuck programs and did not find any that correspond to open maths problems in the right way.
01:00:41 <korvo> I did find a lot of Collatz implementations, which is good, but they're all cycle detectors for a single input. If I want it, I'll probably have to hack it myself.
01:02:30 <korvo> ais523: As long as you're nearby, I know you know tag systems well. It looks like their signature is (nat, set, set), so their size is presumably 3D and using the set cardinalities?
01:04:29 <ais523> so tag systems are based around a skip distance, and a map from symbols to strings: the main relevant "size of the tag system" is based around the number of symbols and the lengths of the strings they map to
01:04:58 <ais523> the skip distance doesn't seem to be a relevant indicator of complexity, in that you need longer strings to make a higher skip distance useful
01:05:26 <ais523> it is probably easiest to fix it at 2; normally I write in 2-tag anyway
01:10:24 <korvo> Hm. So where would complexity be smuggled? Is it string lengths or symbol count?
01:11:23 <ais523> there are TC constructions for both low symbol count (5) and short strings (4)
01:11:56 <ais523> but the strings are incredibly long when the symbol count is 5 (probably in the double- or triple-exponential range), and the short-string construction has 19 symbols
01:13:36 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133673&oldid=133672 * TheCanon2 * (+51) added info about the disan count
01:25:09 <korvo> Okay, thanks. I'll have to think about this more, but it sounds like tag systems could offer another good gauge.
01:35:13 <ais523> korvo: so I haven't managed to implement the halting behaviour yet, but I managed to create the Hydra sequence in The Waterfall Model with 3 waterclocks: [[16,3, 3,3], [ 3,3, 0,6], [ 2,6, 3,0], [ 1,0,15,6]]
01:36:07 <ais523> the values of the first waterclock whenever the third becomes 2 for the first time in a while are 25 46 88 151 235 361 550 844 1285 …
01:36:36 <ais523> for each of those, add 38, divide by 21, and you get 3 4 6 9 13 19 28 42 63 …
01:37:51 <ais523> getting it to halt correctly could be awkward, thogh
01:39:46 <korvo> ais523: Oh wow, that's smaller than I would have expected. Very cool.
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01:49:07 <ais523> this has also made me realise that many simple variations on the Hydra rule (like changing the amount added to 3x when the input is of the form 2x+1) lead to the same sequence of parities, because you can use one rule ro simulate the other via appropriate translation and scaling
01:56:27 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133674&oldid=131924 * TheCanon2 * (+821) Added Shinda Sakan
01:58:00 <ais523> a useful reference here is https://oeis.org/A061418 which has links to known results about the sequence in question – in particular it seems to have a closed form
01:59:03 <ais523> or, hmm, there's a constant factor which appears hard to calculate
02:00:50 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133675&oldid=133674 * TheCanon2 * (+41) moved Shinda Sakana
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02:06:04 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133676&oldid=131514 * TheCanon2 * (+345) Added H
02:10:45 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133677&oldid=131927 * TheCanon2 * (+359) Added $! and $+-?
02:10:52 <ais523> apparently Stephen Wolfram did an exhaustive search for nontrivial behaviour in small Minsky machines a while back, and found one that produces the Hydra sequence (although it never halts): https://www.wolframscience.com/nks/p100--register-machines/
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03:10:35 <zzo38> I don't like the new "gift" rule in Magic: the Gathering. I think better would be like "gift--draw a card", "gift--create a Food token", etc, instead. Also, I think it would be better to fix the rules that spell abilities can be used on permanent spells, instead of working differently for permanent spells and other spells.
03:17:36 <ais523> storm works the same way on permanent and non-permanent spells, doesn't it?
03:17:40 <ais523> (although the copies resolve differently)
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03:45:24 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133678&oldid=133491 * TheCanon2 * (+22) had a new idea
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04:13:18 <esolangs> [[W.W.E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133679 * TheCanon2 * (+1152) Created page with "'''W.W.E''' (World's Worst Esolang) is a programming language created by [[User:TheCanon2]] that can only do [[Popular problem|popular problems]]. ==Commands== W.W.E programs are read in nibbles. W.W.E has 15 commands. {|class="wikitable" ! Opcode !! Symbol !! Action |
04:37:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133680&oldid=133651 * None1 * (+178)
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06:49:02 <int-e> b_jonas: "central" is just responsible for controlling the requested shape and the release of items after the shape and color select stage, and delivery to the hub. I've done that with a few buttons for testing.
06:51:20 <int-e> So essentially this https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tree-mam/#hub
06:55:34 <int-e> . o O ( The only air-gapped cloud devices I recognize are balloons, helicopters, and airplances. )
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07:23:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133681&oldid=114192 * HammyHammerhead * (+51) /* Chicken. */ new section
07:23:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133682&oldid=133576 * Gggfr * (+341) /* Random Observations and Guesses */
07:25:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Not a brainfuck derivative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133683&oldid=89057 * HammyHammerhead * (+87) /* Note */ new section
07:25:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133684&oldid=133682 * Gggfr * (+23) /* a tape */
07:30:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bring to another]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133685 * Gggfr * (+0) Created blank page
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07:45:36 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133686&oldid=133649 * Gggfr * (+8)
07:46:02 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133687&oldid=133686 * Gggfr * (+2) /* examples */
07:46:32 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133688&oldid=133652 * Gggfr * (+12) /* ()NEST() */
07:47:24 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133689&oldid=133688 * Gggfr * (-1) /* REG.TYPE = STR TRUE */
07:47:59 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133690&oldid=133647 * Gggfr * (-1)
07:52:00 <esolangs> [[MetaGlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133691&oldid=72959 * Gggfr * (+0)
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08:05:27 <esolangs> [[XUS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133692&oldid=133595 * Gggfr * (+18) /* examples */
08:06:09 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133693&oldid=133689 * Gggfr * (+107)
08:11:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Galvandi * New user account
08:28:02 <esolangs> [[Signle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133694 * Gggfr * (+900) Created page with "'''Signle''' is a esolang with only one function made by [[User:Yayimhere]]. The name comes from a typo of the word single cuz its a single function. == the function == There os a single function. The <code>!</code> function. It tales input as a string. Lets say we pass it
08:29:45 <esolangs> [[Signle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133695&oldid=133694 * Gggfr * (+73)
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09:19:23 <esolangs> [[Signle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133696&oldid=133695 * Gggfr * (+2) /* examples */
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11:11:37 <APic> cpressey: The Sky
11:11:40 <APic> Aaaand the Ceiling
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11:54:24 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133697&oldid=133575 * HammyHammerhead * (+33) Do I really have to put something here?
11:54:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133698&oldid=133573 * HammyHammerhead * (+49) /* hi */ new section
11:55:50 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133699&oldid=133606 * HammyHammerhead * (+4) User link
11:56:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Assembly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133700 * PrySigneToFry * (+425) /* WIP */ new section
12:01:51 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133701&oldid=133697 * HammyHammerhead * (+2) /* My esolangs */ Added a bullet point
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13:05:16 <esolangs> [[Category talk:2024]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133702 * HammyHammerhead * (+0) Created blank page
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14:49:29 <esolangs> [[W.W.E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133703&oldid=133679 * TheCanon2 * (+2891) Completed the article
15:11:52 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133704&oldid=133673 * TheCanon2 * (+58) redid disan count
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16:51:40 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133705&oldid=133693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* XUS */ Link
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17:14:50 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133706&oldid=133701 * HammyHammerhead * (+13) Added section
17:15:03 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133707&oldid=133706 * HammyHammerhead * (+3) Fixed error
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17:32:06 <esolangs> [[XUS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133708&oldid=133692 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:33:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133709&oldid=133480 * Unicodes * (+27)
17:35:36 <esolangs> [[User:Unicodes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133710&oldid=133415 * Unicodes * (-354) /* self-repeat */
17:38:53 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133711&oldid=133687 * Gggfr * (+24)
17:39:45 <esolangs> [[DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133712&oldid=127953 * Gggfr * (-5) /* esolang overview */
17:40:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:DQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133713 * Gggfr * (+144) Created page with "This begins to look like a [[Minsky machine]] the more i look at it -x-~~~~"
17:42:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133714&oldid=133713 * Gggfr * (+49)
17:42:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133715&oldid=133543 * Unicodes * (+103)
17:43:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133716&oldid=133715 * Unicodes * (+22)
17:45:19 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133717&oldid=133437 * Unicodes * (+55) /* self-repeat */
17:51:38 <esolangs> [[DQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133718 * Gggfr * (+537) Created page with "'''DQ''' or NDQ is a extension of [[DQ]] that can simulate a [[minsky machine]]. Its also created by [[User:yayimhere]] === memory === memory is now stored in 2(!) stacks. These works like the registers === additions === These commands has been added {| class="wikitable" |+ Add
17:52:15 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133719&oldid=133670 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+19) /* quirks */
17:52:21 <esolangs> [[DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133720&oldid=133718 * Gggfr * (+9)
17:55:36 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133721&oldid=132712 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+33)
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17:59:08 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133722&oldid=133704 * TheCanon2 * (+105) print the latin alphabet
18:05:36 <cpressey> It's a trivial observation but if the only way to create a lambda term in your language is from an AST for a lambda term, then the lambda terms can be assumed to have their variables bound correctly, because your AST->lambda term translation phase is responsible for doing that correctly.
18:10:21 <cpressey> Now, I don't really know how that insight helps me, right now, but there it is. I suppose I need to be more concerned with whether the variable references in the AST make sense. Need to use something like Abstract Binding Trees instead.
18:13:10 <ais523> it's not immediately clear to me what incorrectly bound variables would be
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18:19:37 <korvo> Yeah, this really just raises the binding problem up to the ABT. One still needs a way to designate where the new lambda's variable would go when filled in.
18:20:01 <korvo> So the lambda constructor must take *open* lambda terms and return *closed* terms.
18:20:41 <korvo> And this means that you end up with two flavors of terms, open and closed, all through the AST. The ABT organizes all of this and provides a clean semantics for the substitution that the lambda constructor must perform.
18:21:27 <korvo> Another way of putting this is that we can get UTT with, um, I guess a trivial open term, application of terms, and the standard ABT machinery.
18:21:50 <korvo> *ULC, sheesh. Spending too much time in ##dependent.
18:25:20 <korvo> ...Oh, since ABTs aren't easy to search for: an Abstract Binding Tree is like an AST, but it can have named open holes where other ASTs would go. It can be typed. It's kind of like lambda calculus on AST fragments.
18:25:59 <korvo> A closed ABT is just an AST. An open ABT, plus a map from its open names to ASTs, is also just an AST.
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20:31:24 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133723&oldid=96946 * TheCanon2 * (+715) Added an implementation section since the implementation page doesn't exist
20:35:49 <esolangs> [[PTSL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133724&oldid=66874 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) Categories
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20:46:09 <esolangs> [[7 bottles of tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133725&oldid=129775 * TheCanon2 * (+363) Added Python implementation
20:54:09 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133726&oldid=129770 * TheCanon2 * (+257) Added a section for implementations
21:00:38 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133727&oldid=133726 * TheCanon2 * (+198) Added other implementation
21:05:50 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/constant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133728&oldid=129772 * TheCanon2 * (+196) Added an Implementations section
21:07:40 <esolangs> [[Aweosme-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133729&oldid=130284 * TheCanon2 * (+69) info
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22:03:24 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133730&oldid=133523 * TheCanon2 * (+165) Added Sakana and $+-? to the list
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22:20:23 <esolangs> [[Aweosme-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133731&oldid=133729 * Tommyaweosme * (-69) brainfuck, javascript, every turing-complete language with print capabilities, c++, conways game of life, befunge, and way way more. just python is a very wrong assumption
22:29:20 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133732&oldid=132819 * Tommyaweosme * (+35) now its not misleading. what do you want next?
22:29:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133733&oldid=133732 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) newline spacing
23:15:28 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133734&oldid=133730 * TheCanon2 * (+30) /* wsad */ Added W.W.E to the list in an unconventional way
23:19:34 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133735&oldid=133640 * TheCanon2 * (+72) Added categories
23:39:17 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133736&oldid=132564 * TheCanon2 * (+87) /* 1 */ Added $+-? to the list in an unconventional manner
23:41:09 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133737&oldid=133736 * TheCanon2 * (+78) /* Headache (lang that compiles to brainfuck) */ Added H with Line Below to the list in an unconventional manner (for my poor internet connection)
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01:05:48 <esolangs> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133738&oldid=129823 * PrySigneToFry * (+265)
01:11:40 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133739&oldid=133085 * PrySigneToFry * (+23)
01:15:33 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133740&oldid=133163 * PrySigneToFry * (+164)
01:23:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133741&oldid=133716 * PrySigneToFry * (+133)
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01:32:56 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133742&oldid=133328 * TheCanon2 * (+12) /* Example-based languages */ Added Worlds Worst Esolang to the list
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01:46:49 <Sgeo> Finally have *very* smooth audio
01:47:09 <Sgeo> Didn't realize that an argument to Float32Array was a byte offset
01:57:40 <b_jonas> smooth audio? what are you making?
01:58:01 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133743&oldid=133678 * TheCanon2 * (+340) Added more info about myself
01:59:44 <Sgeo> b_jonas, (yet another) BytePusher web implementation
02:20:39 <Sgeo> It's partially written in WebAssembly text, which I thought was the main interesting thing, but running the VM in an audio worklet gives me a guaranteed framerate and better audio than I've heard in the other web impls
02:23:32 <b_jonas> do you have enough interesting programs to run on it?
02:30:09 <Sgeo> Only what's on the esolang page for BytePusher. Best one is the Audio Test
02:30:23 <Sgeo> Currently trying to figure out why it's failing on my phone
02:39:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanzifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133744&oldid=133231 * PrySigneToFry * (+358)
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02:45:17 <Sgeo> https://sgeo.github.io/BytePusherWASM/
02:46:40 <Sgeo> I have no idea how it works on lower performance devices. And Android's supposed to support audio worklet, don't know why it doesn't work on my phone
02:47:27 <Sgeo> Maybe a secure context thing? Works fine on GitHub Pages, I was testing via IP address
02:47:44 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133745&oldid=133451 * PrySigneToFry * (+241)
02:48:22 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133746&oldid=133745 * PrySigneToFry * (-65)
02:49:11 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133747&oldid=133746 * PrySigneToFry * (+65)
02:49:43 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133748&oldid=133747 * PrySigneToFry * (+242)
02:51:43 <Sgeo> Just saw it glitch a bit on my phone. Video glitched at the same time, which I think is arguably desirable?
02:54:37 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133749&oldid=133748 * PrySigneToFry * (+18)
02:57:00 <esolangs> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133750&oldid=132118 * Sgeo * (+27) /* Machines */
02:57:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:TmSkfuSEGkuehESOisySEFjs.jpg]]"
02:58:11 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133752&oldid=133749 * PrySigneToFry * (+69)
03:15:54 <esolangs> [[Programs that are not text-based]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133753 * PrySigneToFry * (+4123) Created page with "The text-based program is most basic program. However, we always uses the graphic-based program, and text-based program is not too useful(sometimes useless). Here are some example for these program which is non-text-based. == Python TicT
03:17:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133754&oldid=133752 * PrySigneToFry * (+89)
03:21:25 <esolangs> [[Empty Program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133755&oldid=125320 * PrySigneToFry * (+40)
03:25:25 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133756&oldid=133754 * PrySigneToFry * (+180)
03:29:54 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/There are some User are most contributions in this wiki.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133757 * PrySigneToFry * (+199) Created page with "There are some User are most contributions in this wiki. Four titans in this Wiki: # [[User:ais523|ais523]] # [[User:None1|None-One]] # [[User:MihaiEso|Mihai Popa]] # [[User:PrySigneToFr
03:30:37 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133758&oldid=131597 * PrySigneToFry * (+148)
03:35:47 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/TEST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133759&oldid=131595 * PrySigneToFry * (+536)
04:07:16 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133760&oldid=133168 * Corbin * (+1944) Unstub and rewrite the first two sections. This is 100% off the top of my head and not copied from elsewhere.
04:08:12 <korvo> ^^^ I've hopefully made it clear that this page isn't a WP ripoff. Let me know if more work is needed, but for now I'm hoping that this wows our eager teenage contributor.
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04:33:22 <Sgeo> I suppose I'm not entirely sure if AudioWorkletProcessor.process is really called just-in-time. postMessaging the video kind of makes that assumption, and I don't know if that's appropriate
04:53:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133761&oldid=133465 * None1 * (+130) /* I think this can add even more commands, not only , , , and . */
04:58:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133762&oldid=133449 * None1 * (+67)
05:01:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133763&oldid=133762 * None1 * (+109)
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05:07:03 <esolangs> [[SPARCs Fly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133764&oldid=129411 * BoundedBeans * (+1618) Added "/{F}[Release]@[Architecture]///no/a/There is no such thing as a FREE lunch" variation
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05:25:30 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133765&oldid=133532 * EvyLah * (+278) small stuff
05:27:45 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133766&oldid=133765 * EvyLah * (+172) implementation ideas idk
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07:31:47 <esolangs> [[Programs that are not text-based]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133767&oldid=133753 * PrySigneToFry * (+32)
07:34:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133768&oldid=133709 * PrySigneToFry * (-27)
07:42:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133769&oldid=133485 * PrySigneToFry * (+805)
07:44:06 <esolangs> [[User:Example]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133770 * PrySigneToFry * (+66) Created page with "This is an Example User. (Note that he/she is not registered yet.)"
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08:27:39 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133771 * HammyHammerhead * (+446) Made the page
08:43:55 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133772&oldid=133594 * Gggfr * (+1210)
08:46:31 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133773&oldid=133772 * Gggfr * (+57) /* other */
08:47:09 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133774&oldid=133773 * Gggfr * (+1) /* other */
08:48:03 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133775&oldid=133774 * Gggfr * (+25) /* other */
08:58:44 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133776&oldid=133775 * Gggfr * (+127) /* useful functions */
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09:57:20 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133777&oldid=101917 * Tromp * (+49) add minimal basis
10:32:47 <HackEso> select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and more.
10:38:42 <int-e> (sadly too long to mention PEXT as well)
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11:14:34 <fizzie> Heh. Either someone's shared each individual wiki page in a Facebook post, or Meta is using their "facebookexternalhit/1.1" UA for generalized crawling of the web (despite the documentation about how it is used only for user-shared links; they've got a different UA they're supposed to use "for use cases such as training AI models or improving products by indexing content directly").
11:17:16 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133778&oldid=133756 * PrySigneToFry * (+381)
11:17:54 <int-e> hmm or a third party is using their user agent identifier
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11:32:49 <wib_jonas> int-e re "select": that's a condensed version of the list I have on https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=295576 , and that latter does have the INTERCAL sheep and goat operator
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11:40:45 <int-e> wib_jonas: it's just that the lookup "select" -> "pext" is a bit hard... I found the latter here in the end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_instruction_listings#Bit_manipulation_extensions
11:41:23 <int-e> it's not a thing I really need frequently :P
11:42:15 <fizzie> int-e: It was all from Meta's IP address ranges, though.
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11:42:37 <fizzie> After setting up all those graphs I can't help but look at every little blip.
11:43:08 <fizzie> "If you don't measure it, it won't get better", people say at work, but the forget the corollary of "if you measure it, you won't stop obsessing about it".
11:43:58 <wib_jonas> int-e: is this somehow motivated by shapez?
11:45:37 <int-e> wib_jonas: It can be used to implement collapsing (delete empty layers) and stacking on bitmasks. Though somehow my program did not become faster.
11:49:22 <int-e> Oh I did finish the central control part of the true MAM and tested it for a few levels. It survived some fancy recipe changes so I think it's all working as intended :)
11:50:16 <wib_jonas> nice. did you test it for non-freeplay shapes too?
11:50:50 <wib_jonas> also is this one where you have to delete all shapes every time you load the saved game?
11:51:40 <int-e> well I have once again added a "stop" button that you can press, and then wait out, before saving
11:52:01 <int-e> (and I'm playing the game without autosave)
11:52:16 <int-e> but yeah it's possible to mess things up and then you'll have some manual cleaning to do
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12:02:16 <int-e> wib_jonas: In this context, all the freeplay shapes are effectively the same recipe; they're assembled from two vertical halves. And making halves is basically the same as half an ordinary MAM, which I took from my MAM design. There's an extra stacker stage to make a support beam in the other half, and a final cutting stage. But nothing truly interesting is going on there...
12:02:51 <int-e> So yes, I did test non-freeplay shapes.
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14:34:15 <esolangs> [[6 bits, 12 bytes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133779&oldid=131250 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
14:52:55 <esolangs> [[ bits, 0 Bytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133780 * PrySigneToFry * (+6558) Created page with "{{WIP}} bits, 0 Bytes is designed by PSTF. == Concept == To "InHeRiTaNcE" Concept of [[6 bits, 12 bytes]], I created this Esolang. == Commands == === Command Character Table === <pre> 0123456789ABCDEF 00 01 02 !"#$%&'()*+,-./ 03 01234
14:54:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133781&oldid=133629 * PrySigneToFry * (+68)
14:56:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133782&oldid=132952 * PrySigneToFry * (+512) /* Do you see my edit on your user page(I encoded it in GBK) */ new section
14:58:35 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133783&oldid=133778 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
15:00:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133784&oldid=133457 * PrySigneToFry * (+540) /* I think I did something which you did. */ new section
15:01:22 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133785&oldid=133743 * TheCanon2 * (+20) Added Amtu to the list
15:10:11 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133786 * TheCanon2 * (+209) created Amtu article
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16:10:39 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133787&oldid=133786 * TheCanon2 * (+1325) Completed the article
16:26:03 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133788&oldid=133787 * TheCanon2 * (+60) added info about alphabet
16:33:18 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133789&oldid=133788 * TheCanon2 * (+60) Added info about memory
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17:41:00 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133790&oldid=133789 * TheCanon2 * (+124)
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17:51:04 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133791&oldid=133790 * TheCanon2 * (+451) Added Rule 110
17:53:52 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133792&oldid=133791 * TheCanon2 * (+0) fixed rule 110
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18:01:15 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133793&oldid=133792 * TheCanon2 * (+167) Added XKCD random number
18:03:29 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133794&oldid=133659 * TheCanon2 * (+85) Added Amtu to the list
18:36:46 <b_jonas> I still find these names from https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-04.html#lKE funny: "Cthulhuquagdonic Mothraquagdonic Narwhalicorn", "Darth Spongeicorn Moon". I hope Taneb invented them or will invent them soon.
18:58:17 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133795&oldid=133794 * PkmnQ * (+231) Add 5 esolangs selected through Random page
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19:21:07 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDnW0WiCqNc => hey look, I was just talking about this chess notation thing in https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-09.html#lP , before that video released
19:23:08 <b_jonas> also apparently the syzygy-tables website has changed since I posted that, it now uses the shorter disambiguation for that move
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19:45:37 <coat> does anyone know who runs esolangs wiki?
19:45:41 <int-e> b_jonas: silly rocket recipe: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-rocket.png (true MAM related)
19:46:30 <int-e> . o O ( fizzie knows )
19:46:53 <coat> hey int-e! nice to see you here. I know you from ##math
19:54:24 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133796&oldid=133793 * TheCanon2 * (+0) fixed display error
19:59:52 <fizzie> I "run" it only in the sense of doing the bare minimum, but sure.
20:02:02 <coat> fizzie: thanks for running this great resource!
20:06:55 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133797&oldid=133796 * TheCanon2 * (+260) Added another program
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20:09:10 <fizzie> You're certainly welcome, though it doesn't involve all that much from my part, either financially (the hosting is donated by a UK webhost, thanks to one of their ex-employees being an esolang enthusiast; the total costs to me are one .org domain) or temporally (a roughly once-a-year session to upgrade MediaWiki).
20:09:32 <HackEso> coat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:09:57 <b_jonas> HackEso: yeah, I think they already know about the wiki\
20:10:27 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
20:10:36 <coat> I'm guessing you guys are all very well versed with Theory of Computation! for a beginner like me, is there a good set of resources I can use to get started?
20:12:13 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133798 * Xff * (+1330) Created page with "'''Turtle just want to dig''' or '''TuJuWaToDi''' is a esolang based on how when [[User:Yayimhere|Yayimhere]](the creator of the esolang) was sitting with his turtle and it just began digging. == how it works == the program is a grid set up like this: ===
20:12:22 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133799&oldid=133785 * TheCanon2 * (+62) Added Rule 108
20:13:02 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133800&oldid=133798 * Xff * (+81)
20:13:37 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133801&oldid=133800 * Xff * (+34)
20:15:46 <esolangs> [[LAMBDA Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133802 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+41) Redirected page to [[]]
20:16:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133803&oldid=133719 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* counter */
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20:23:48 <b_jonas> coat: sorry, I don't have pointers for those resources, but your question is kind of general, so you can try to ask for resources something more specific
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20:35:59 <esolangs> [[Beefydie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133804&oldid=131604 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) /* Other languages */
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20:39:37 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133805&oldid=132615 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+61) /* infinite loop */
20:40:13 <esolangs> [[DO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133806&oldid=133805 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-23) /* category */
20:41:09 <esolangs> [[MinusGreater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133807&oldid=133012 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+53)
20:41:24 <esolangs> [[MinusGreater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133808&oldid=133807 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+9) /* truth-machine */
20:41:43 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133809&oldid=133803 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) /* quirks */
20:43:24 <esolangs> [[Prefix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133810&oldid=77699 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Examples */
20:44:26 <korvo> coat: I usually want to point folks at something like https://www.logicmatters.net/resources/pdfs/godelbook/GodelBookLM.pdf but this is usually an unfair request because Gödelian concepts are difficult for neophytes.
20:45:59 <korvo> Also, computability theory today is different from what it used to be. More Gödel, less Kleene. It would be rude to show you the Parameter Theorem as the first important theorem, even if it used to be important.
20:47:54 <esolangs> [[Rule 108]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133811 * TheCanon2 * (+2024) Created page for Rule 108
20:50:09 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133812&oldid=133797 * TheCanon2 * (+206) Added Rule 108
20:55:37 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133813&oldid=133771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) Categories
20:57:23 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133814&oldid=133809 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) Categories
20:59:33 <coat> korvo: that's a very good link. thanks! does this channel have a page or something with a list of similarly spectacular resources?
21:01:14 <esolangs> [[DO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133815&oldid=133806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) Categories
21:06:41 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133816&oldid=133801 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) Formatting, categories
21:09:09 <esolangs> [[DQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133817&oldid=133712 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) See also, categories
21:10:30 <esolangs> [[DQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133818&oldid=133720 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+172) Categories
21:19:11 <esolangs> [[DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133819&oldid=133817 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+678) Add interpreter
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21:45:15 <korvo> coat: Not that I know of.
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22:10:54 <esolangs> [[C@++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133820&oldid=128076 * BoundedBeans * (+26) Clarified @ command
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00:19:53 <esolangs> [[Tile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133821&oldid=122883 * Dtp09 * (+8) changed replit links to the new interpreter
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01:08:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category talk:2024]]": blank page, has never had content making the link blue for no reason may confuse people into thinking there is content there
01:09:19 <esolangs> [[Tile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133822&oldid=133821 * Dtp09 * (-305) rewrote a lot of the page
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01:35:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133823&oldid=133769 * PrySigneToFry * (+645)
01:35:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133824&oldid=133823 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
01:36:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133825&oldid=133782 * PrySigneToFry * (-45)
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02:25:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133826&oldid=133741 * PrySigneToFry * (+865)
02:40:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck, but every + is replaced with the bee movie script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133827&oldid=107303 * PrySigneToFry * (+12168) /* I have another better idea. */ new section
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02:51:16 <esolangs> [[ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133828 * PrySigneToFry * (+1659) Created page with "''ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0'' is designed by PSTF and inspired by [[SyntaxError: invalid syntax]] which is inspired by [[foo : The term 'foo' is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or operable program. Che
02:53:03 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133829&oldid=133742 * PrySigneToFry * (+59)
02:57:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133830&oldid=133825 * Tommyaweosme * (+168)
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04:50:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:ISEW2C]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133831 * PkmnQ * (+122) Created page with "Is there a proof that this is Turing-complete? --~~~~"
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05:26:28 <esolangs> [[ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133832&oldid=133828 * None1 * (-18) /* Batch */ fix
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05:42:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated Julia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133833&oldid=133492 * None1 * (+110)
05:43:27 <esolangs> [[Ruck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133834&oldid=117755 * None1 * (+0)
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05:59:09 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133835&oldid=133776 * Gggfr * (+49) /* functions */
06:06:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133836&oldid=133835 * Gggfr * (+13) /* useful functions */
06:09:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133837&oldid=133836 * Gggfr * (+11) /* oxck */
06:10:02 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133838&oldid=133837 * Gggfr * (+1) /* oxck */
06:23:10 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133839&oldid=133838 * Gggfr * (+163) /* useful functions */
06:26:05 <esolangs> [[oxck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133840 * Gggfr * (+1636) Created page with "'''oxck''' is a esolang based on boolean modification using Functions with the only logic gate XNOR written using unicode box drawing. === booleans === To create a boolean: is 1 and is 0 Booleans are sent through wires(the box drawing) like this: To
06:30:19 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133841&oldid=133840 * Gggfr * (+125) /* booleans */
06:31:17 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133842&oldid=133841 * Gggfr * (+10) /* functions */
06:43:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133843&oldid=133839 * Gggfr * (-1657)
06:47:59 <esolangs> [[Boxfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133844 * Gggfr * (+27) Redirected page to [[oxck]]
07:20:50 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133845&oldid=133842 * Gggfr * (+412) /* useful functions */
07:40:34 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133846&oldid=133845 * Gggfr * (+6) /* useful functions */
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08:12:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133847&oldid=133830 * PrySigneToFry * (+450)
08:34:24 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133848&oldid=133551 * PrySigneToFry * (+732)
08:36:25 <esolangs> [[Infinite loop (esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133849&oldid=114547 * PrySigneToFry * (+279)
08:41:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133850&oldid=122044 * PrySigneToFry * (+444)
08:43:42 <esolangs> [[Kalgarn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133851&oldid=132739 * PrySigneToFry * (+154)
08:55:56 <esolangs> [[Nebulang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133852&oldid=133307 * PrySigneToFry * (+88)
08:57:58 <esolangs> [[WhimsiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133853&oldid=128835 * PrySigneToFry * (+99)
09:12:03 <esolangs> [[Infinite loop (esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133854&oldid=133849 * Unname4798 * (+63)
09:17:09 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133855&oldid=133846 * Gggfr * (+379) /* useful functions */
09:18:21 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133856&oldid=133855 * Gggfr * (+9) /* useful functions */
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09:21:40 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133857 * PrySigneToFry * (+2564) Created page with " is designed by PSTF and his CharGPT. == Commands == The language operates on a tape of cells, each containing an integer. The program consists of a series of Chinese characters, each representing a different operation. Instructions: # (Y) - Move the data pointer to
09:22:06 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133858&oldid=133857 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
09:22:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133859&oldid=133781 * PrySigneToFry * (+13)
09:25:52 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133860&oldid=133707 * HammyHammerhead * (+14) Added a esolang to the list
09:26:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Collabi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133861 * HammyHammerhead * (+0) Created blank page
09:27:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133862&oldid=133861 * HammyHammerhead * (+98) /* SOMEBODY NOTICED THIS */ new section
09:43:50 <esolangs> [[Textile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133863&oldid=122884 * Dtp09 * (+629) rewrote hte page
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09:49:18 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133864&oldid=133856 * Gggfr * (+33) /* other */
09:53:59 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133865&oldid=133864 * Gggfr * (+24) /* other */
10:00:59 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133866&oldid=133865 * Gggfr * (-14) /* other */
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12:05:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[Textile]] to [[Texttile]]
12:06:49 <esolangs> [[Texttile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133869&oldid=133867 * Unname4798 * (-121)
12:46:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133870&oldid=133847 * Tommyaweosme * (+233) /* Do you see my edit on your user page */
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13:16:37 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133871&oldid=133813 * HammyHammerhead * (+78)
13:18:39 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133872&oldid=133871 * HammyHammerhead * (+64)
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16:10:36 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133873&oldid=133812 * TheCanon2 * (+15) Fixed the Rule 108 machine
16:13:59 <esolangs> [[Rule 108]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133874&oldid=133811 * TheCanon2 * (+14) Corrected the error in the Amtu script
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16:44:42 <esolangs> [[Rule 108]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133875&oldid=133874 * TheCanon2 * (-18) Renamed this to Canon
16:45:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheCanon2 * moved [[Rule 108]] to [[Canon]]: I learned about the actual Rule 108 after I made the page
16:46:02 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133878&oldid=133799 * TheCanon2 * (-3) Renamed Rule 108 to Canon
16:48:39 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133879&oldid=133873 * TheCanon2 * (-6) Renamed Rule 108 to Canon
16:50:41 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133880&oldid=133816 * Xff * (-375) /* how it works */
16:50:50 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133881&oldid=133880 * Xff * (-1) /* how it works */
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18:39:22 <esolangs> [[1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133882&oldid=124050 * TheCanon2 * (-2) There is clearly an implementation
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20:01:47 <esolangs> [[Texttile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133883&oldid=133869 * Dtp09 * (+69) /* Brainfuck */
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20:38:33 <esolangs> [[oxck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133884&oldid=133866 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) Categories
20:41:38 <esolangs> [[Canon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133885&oldid=133876 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Categories
20:44:00 <esolangs> [[Canon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133886&oldid=133885 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+124) Redirects here
20:50:37 <esolangs> [[.not required]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133887&oldid=128468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) Categories
20:53:10 <esolangs> [[RIfP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133888&oldid=122247 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+4) Rectified the Cyclic Tag which contained instances of an erroneous spelling interpet in lieu of the interpret label name.
20:54:27 <esolangs> [[Signle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133889&oldid=133696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) Stub, categories
20:54:46 <esolangs> [[RIfP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133890&oldid=133888 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+204) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the RIfP programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
20:56:08 <esolangs> [[Nesting lines on big complicated trees and definitely not inspired by a conlang i made sometime]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133891&oldid=128090 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) Lowercase, stub, category
20:56:50 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133892&oldid=133879 * TheCanon2 * (+1495) Added implementation
20:57:16 <esolangs> [[Pi(e)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133893&oldid=61605 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
20:59:59 <esolangs> [[!!!Batch/Interpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133894&oldid=127330 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) Category
21:06:25 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133895&oldid=133892 * TheCanon2 * (-74) Canon works fine
21:13:00 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133896&oldid=133895 * TheCanon2 * (+72) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133895|133895]] by [[Special:Contributions/TheCanon2|TheCanon2]] ([[User talk:TheCanon2|talk]])
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00:15:01 <Sgeo> Tempted to use JsBP's really, really nice GUI in front of my VM
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00:52:28 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133897&oldid=133896 * TheCanon2 * (+77) corrected stuff
00:54:38 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133898&oldid=133897 * TheCanon2 * (+120) added notes
00:56:33 <esolangs> [[Yee]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133899 * Tommyaweosme * (+578) Created page with "Yee is an esoteric programming language based off of the yee dinasour meme. == Commands == bah - cell 1 bah bah - cell 2 bah bah bah - cell 3 ... baah - before "Ye..." (if no "bah"s are before it, use cell of last command) B(a=0,h=1) - replaces "baah" and sets cur
01:06:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133900&oldid=132933 * Tommyaweosme * (+816) added more lore
01:06:55 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133901&oldid=133740 * Tommyaweosme * (+10)
01:14:17 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133902&oldid=133208 * PrySigneToFry * (+428)
01:18:10 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133903&oldid=133902 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
01:21:09 <esolangs> [[fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133904&oldid=133404 * PrySigneToFry * (+114)
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04:31:39 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133905&oldid=133903 * None1 * (-60) /* C++ */ If you don't make it have no copyright you cannot post it here
04:40:59 <esolangs> [[BrainSplited]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133906 * PrySigneToFry * (+6515) Created page with "{{WIP}} {{AKA|title=AsciiTape}} {{AKA|title=Extended Brainfuck Programming Language(EBPL for short)}} BrainSplited is designed by PSTF and his ChatGPT. It is extended Brainfuck. == My question and ChatGPT's answer == Q1: Can you invent an esoteric program
04:50:14 <esolangs> [[BrainSplited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133907&oldid=133906 * Unname4798 * (+14)
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08:15:21 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133908&oldid=133884 * Gggfr * (+0) /* other */
09:28:56 <esolangs> [[Moaiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133909&oldid=130879 * Dtp09 * (+251) rewrote the page
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10:16:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:ISEW2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133910&oldid=133831 * PkmnQ * (+231)
10:23:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133911&oldid=133859 * PrySigneToFry * (+19)
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10:28:54 <wib_jonas> does anyone happen to understand why https://www.bigmessowires.com/cpu-in-a-cpld/ says there's an STA imm instruction?
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10:29:58 <wib_jonas> ah wait, https://www.bigmessowires.com/cpu-in-a-cpld/#comment-108669 asks that already and there's a reply
10:32:56 <wib_jonas> apparently it was a mistake. now I wonder if any esoteric language has an STA imm instruction deliberately.
10:34:16 <int-e> hnn it would be funny if it modified the immediate field of the instruction...
10:38:03 <int-e> I'm trying to remember whether box-256 actually did that. I don't think so though... (I do remember writing code with instructions that stored into the same instruction's source immediate values though)
10:43:02 <wib_jonas> int-e: um, what's this? so you had an instruction that had like an absolute target and an immediate source operand, and you directed it to write into the immediate? I think most old CPUs don't have such instructions, while in newer CPUs it's not worth because that would mess up the code cache, but maybe the 386 is right on the boundary, where there
10:43:03 <wib_jonas> are such instructions but no code cache other than a small prefetch queue.
10:44:42 <int-e> yeah this isn't exactly a CPU. http://box-256.com/manual/ ...it has three addressing modes, immediate, address, and indirect address.
10:44:56 <int-e> and also three operand instructions
10:45:50 <int-e> and axtually the opcode table answers my question; there's no encoding for destination immediates
10:47:10 <esolangs> [[ISEW2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133912&oldid=99488 * PkmnQ * (-57) Not Turing-complete
10:49:52 <int-e> But the thing that makes this a non-CPU are the threads, which are deterministically interleaved. You can have up to about 60 of them so that's up to 360 memory accesses per cycle. And yes, one thread can poke into an instruction of another thread just before that thread gets its turn and the next thread will execute that modified instruction.
10:50:29 <int-e> It did feel nicely esoteric because of that though.
11:06:42 <wib_jonas> you should make a wiki entry for it
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11:17:21 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133913&oldid=133881 * Gggfr * (+345)
11:22:14 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133914&oldid=133913 * Gggfr * (+93)
11:24:01 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133915&oldid=133914 * Gggfr * (-20)
11:24:49 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133916&oldid=133915 * Gggfr * (-26)
11:56:57 <int-e> oh I failed to account for memory accesses for maintaining each thread's PC (which is stored in memroy)
11:57:31 <int-e> so with that it's up to 540 memory accesses per cycle
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12:02:59 <int-e> 480. arithmetic is hard
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12:08:02 <wib_jonas> int-e: the description says that the MOV instruction can copy more than one byte, it has an argument for the count of bytes
12:08:44 <int-e> yeah that'll bump it up further
12:09:23 <int-e> two orders of magnitude, so it's becoming even more silly
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12:23:32 <fizzie> Redcode (as in Core War) might allow a destination immediate operand, which would change the value of that immediate field in the same instruction? Not sure if it does, but it feels like the kind of thing it would do. And you do modify a lot of instructions in it.
12:24:22 <wib_jonas> I wonder what it does when the source and destination are overlapping
12:27:45 <fizzie> It had those modifiers as well (.a, .b, .ab, .ba, .f, .x, .i) that I can never really keep straight.
12:29:19 <fizzie> https://corewar.co.uk/karonen/guide.htm#deep_imm seems to imply an "immediate" address is just treated as making the effective address 0 (relative to the instruction), plus of course the number specifying the initial contents of that field.
12:58:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133917&oldid=133911 * Gggfr * (+30) /* T */
13:04:43 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133918&oldid=133916 * Gggfr * (-10)
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14:26:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133920&oldid=132641 * PrySigneToFry * (+559) /* A+B Problem in BrainSplited */ new section
14:27:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133921&oldid=133920 * PrySigneToFry * (+27)
14:28:39 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133922&oldid=132646 * PrySigneToFry * (+97)
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15:57:06 <korvo> Hm, attribution is tricky.
15:58:15 <korvo> While documenting Turing machines, I deanonymized int-e, and I didn't realize I'd done it until later. Do we have community guidelines for keeping that sort of thing straight?
15:59:24 <korvo> I figure it's not a big deal at the moment, but also I'm fairly certain I know identities of folks here who *do* want their names obscured, and I'm not sure how to ask "Do you want me to withhold your name?" without embarrassing folks or making them worry that I'm going to dox them.
15:59:29 <int-e> In my case I haven't tried too hard to keep those identities separate. I mean, I don't go out of my way to link them. That's it.
16:00:08 <korvo> int-e: Okay, thank you. Let me know if you change your mind.
16:00:16 <int-e> (Go to @int-e on github and you'll find all you need because the real name is, to my knowledge, unique.)
16:04:36 <int-e> It's kind of the cost of using the same nick in many contexts for soon 3 decades.
16:16:37 <korvo> For sure. I worry because I know one regular here is deliberately anonymous and I may have accidentally learned their identity years ago, and while I want to give credit for maths discoveries, they hide their name *because* of the maths community.
16:17:45 <korvo> I want to be more respectful than e.g. Aaronson and company, who repeatedly slander "code golf addict" by insulting their decision to not add their real name to Aaronson et al's Busy Beaver papers.
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16:18:46 <korvo> (If I were Aaronson, I guess I'd be embarrassed too. Aaronson & Yedida gave a BB(1919) result and code golf addidct improved it to something like BB(20).)
16:21:24 <ais523> wib_jonas: I think lots of CPUs have circuitry that would decode an instruction as STA, imm – but the instruction simply isn't documented because it wouldn't be useful
16:21:29 <korvo> ...At any rate, if anybody has any problems with what I've put in https://mostawesomedude.github.io/bb-gauge/ so far, just DM me and I'll redact or pseudonymize you appropriately.
16:21:40 <ais523> that said, I do not know of any concrete examples, so I might be wrong in this suspicion
16:23:10 <ais523> on another topic, something I realised recently is that the operation "take the limit of the behaviour of a program as some parameter that parametrises its behaviour tends to 0/∞" a) is capable of increasing a language's computational class, and b) appears to do so in a well-defined way for various classes
16:23:43 <ais523> e.g. if you do it on TC programs you get a halting oracle (because you can use it to evaluate the result of a beeping computation, and those can be halting oracles), and you don't seem to get anything more than a halting oracle
16:23:58 <ais523> and I am wondering what other computational classes become under the same operation
16:24:28 <ais523> primitive-recursive trivially becomes Turing-hard; is it necessarily going to stay computable?
16:24:29 <int-e> korvo: Hmm tracing that... not really the same thing, though related; the thing that Aaronsen co-authored diagonalized proofs in ZFC. The 27 state TM looks for counterexamples to Goldbach's conjecture.
16:24:57 <int-e> korvo: And the 1919 state number is by Stefan O'Rear.
16:25:43 <korvo> int-e: Yeah, that sounds right. As you can see, my memory sucks.
16:26:10 <int-e> . o O ( things with holes in them )
16:26:19 <int-e> . o O ( for $100 )
16:27:23 <ais523> oh wow, talk about small worlds – I collaborated with Stefan O'Rear on a NetHack-related project
16:27:26 <int-e> korvo: The fact that the 1919 number was accurate helped.
16:27:45 <int-e> (I searched that article for the string "1919")
16:28:05 <wib_jonas> ais523: sure, but in https://www.bigmessowires.com/cpu-in-a-cpld/ it's the documentation that specifically shows STA imm in the opcode table, and note that the part of the table with bit 2 and 5 are unset goes {SUB abs; SUB imm; ADD abs; ADD imm; CMP abs; CMP imm; LDA abs; LDA imm; STA abs; STA imm; LDX abs; LDX imm; STX abs; undocumented} so it
16:28:05 <wib_jonas> looks like STX imm deliberately doesn't exist
16:28:39 <ais523> and the same person worked on an INTERCAL-related project (a syntax highlighter, maybe?) which allowed whitespace in the middle of keywords, which is an interesting and possibly correct interpretation of the specification
16:28:47 <korvo> int-e: Yeah. So, checking my notes, I think that there's a lot of headroom beneath Laconic not yet accessed.
16:30:02 <korvo> Aaronson & Matiyasevich give RH a test with BB(734) and O'Rear gives BB(916). However, it's well-known folklore that Turing did RH tests by hand using some sort of discrete procedure; it was one of his favorite toy problems for computers.
16:31:04 <korvo> So there must be some BB(n,k) where n and k are small enough for humans to work through the machine. I don't have any well-vouched RH for k≠2 yet, so I can't guess Turing's k.
16:31:10 <ais523> <korvo> While documenting Turing machines, I deanonymized int-e, and I didn't realize I'd done it until later. Do we have community guidelines for keeping that sort of thing straight? ← my rule is "if someone has posted the work online under a given name, use that name – otherwise, ask – although if you're writing a serious paper for a journal or the like, it's often good to ask which name you should use in case someone pseudonymous wants to use their
16:31:18 <int-e> wib_jonas: I did wonder about the absence of STX abs,X ... maybe accessing the X register for both reading and writing is too hard?
16:31:50 <wib_jonas> ais523: limit to 0 can increase computational class => that's believable, because the physicists are saying that quantum mechanism limits how much information you can store in a given volume of space and how much computation you can do with a given amount of energy, while in classical physics the information and computation are unlimited
16:32:16 <korvo> ais523: That makes sense. I've tried to only use the names that each author has attached to their work. For example, I think I could go look up who LittlePeng9 is, but I want to reuse their handle so that future searchers will find Googology.
16:33:04 <ais523> I gave two different names for my Netrunner Turing-completeness proof, because I normally use different usernames in the Netrunner and Turing-completeness communities
16:33:11 <ais523> so that I would be recognised either way
16:33:28 <wib_jonas> int-e: the absence of STX abs,X => I assume that's just not very useful, it's not in BMOW 1 either, I think this might be inherited from 6502 which inspired both. either that, or the CPX instructions make it so the opcode wouldn't be decoded correctly.
16:34:57 <wib_jonas> "allowed whitespace in the middle of keywords" => I always assumed INTERCAL allowed that, since the FORTRANs and BASICs of the period did too
16:35:36 <ais523> what, really? I thought the BASICs of the era didn't really have source code, the editor stored an AST directly
16:35:49 <ais523> although I guess then it's a question about whether the editor allowed whitespace inside keywords
16:36:30 <int-e> wib_jonas: Oh, here: http://www.bigmessowires.com/2010/04/18/tiny-cpu-architecture/ ...there's no feedback from X to itself without increment or decreement.
16:38:37 <int-e> But it /could/ do post-increment and post-decrement addressing with abs,X if instruction decoding supported it.
16:38:53 <ais523> korvo: re: your Busy Beaver Gauge, I think this is relevant (although not directly relevant): https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/97004/does-the-code-terminate/
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16:41:03 <korvo> ais523: Yes, exactly. I had to gather a few examples before I could even sketch the point, but I think you see it now.
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16:41:32 <korvo> It will be quite funny if it turns out that everything fits into BB(8,2). But even in that case, I think they'll still be smeared out in BLC or BF.
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16:58:03 <wib_jonas> ais523: afaiu the editors store the text of each source line, except for the line number, close to verbatim, except they replace keywords with abbreviated versions, though there are also older basics where you even have to input the keywords in a different way than from a sequence of letters, they just show up as the pretty letter name on screen as
16:58:04 <wib_jonas> you edit. I don't think they store an AST that's reordered compared to the source code.
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17:05:32 <esolangs> [[4Head/AuthorImplementation.c]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133924&oldid=117447 * 1hals * (-43) use standard isdigit
17:18:35 <esolangs> [[Minimized BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133925&oldid=133401 * TheCanon2 * (+1029) Added an interpreter
17:21:33 <ais523> apparently fungot is not here
17:27:27 <int-e> I wanted input on making a zero-gravity guillotine. I didn't want to bother a human about it ;-)
17:30:44 <ais523> the guillotines used for cutting paper are normally manually operated, I think (i.e. a human rather than gravity pushes down on the blade)
17:31:08 <esolangs> [[Ruck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133926&oldid=133834 * TheCanon2 * (+1168) Added implementation
17:33:39 <esolangs> [[Ruck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133927&oldid=133926 * TheCanon2 * (-7) rewrote
17:35:34 <int-e> beheading paper sounds a bit weird... but I guess it'll work for letter heads
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18:50:45 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, someone mentioned recently that they have built a guillotine (not necessarily zero gravity) as some hobby thing. I'd direct you to them but I don't recall who it was. the internet is a strange place.
19:03:51 <int-e> Hmm I saw guillotines mentioned here: https://aus.social/@Unixbigot/112832456291732131
19:04:07 <int-e> But that's fictional.
19:07:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133928&oldid=133917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* T */ Alphabetise
19:13:07 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133929&oldid=133878 * TheCanon2 * (+25) Added Ruckfish
19:17:35 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133930&oldid=133376 * Gggfr * (+28)
19:18:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133931&oldid=133826 * HammyHammerhead * (+81) /* Commands */
19:40:24 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133932 * TheCanon2 * (+1742) Created the article
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20:12:53 <zzo38> I think 6502 has a "store immediate" instruction that does not actually work; the opcode that should mean "store immediate" instead reads its operand and ignores it
20:41:33 <fizzie> Ugh. This time fungot had reconnected, but now it doesn't obey me because my username does *not* have the ~ in it.
20:41:45 <fizzie> I added it in the configuration when there was that identd problem again.
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20:58:14 <esolangs> [[Pylongolf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133933&oldid=50185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+138) Waybacks, categories
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21:22:08 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133934&oldid=133932 * TheCanon2 * (+1797) Completed the article.
21:23:00 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133935&oldid=133929 * TheCanon2 * (-1) changed the number
21:30:56 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133936&oldid=133934 * TheCanon2 * (+131) added details
21:31:38 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133937&oldid=133936 * TheCanon2 * (+1) moved a detail
21:58:56 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133938&oldid=133937 * TheCanon2 * (+384) Articlised my name and added a truth machine
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23:01:46 <esolangs> [[Scratcholang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133939&oldid=123187 * TheCanon2 * (-263) Cleaned the article and added XKCD random number
23:09:19 <esolangs> [[IBC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133940&oldid=133164 * TheCanon2 * (+123) added NNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
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00:20:02 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133941&oldid=133722 * TheCanon2 * (+279) Added a Parity calculator
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01:51:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133942&oldid=133931 * PrySigneToFry * (+89)
01:59:21 <esolangs> [[XRay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133943&oldid=133498 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
02:00:41 <esolangs> [[AsciiDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133944&oldid=93340 * TheCanon2 * (-14) Replaced the dead link
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02:02:19 <esolangs> [[AsciiDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133945&oldid=133944 * TheCanon2 * (+10) added the name
02:02:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133946&oldid=133870 * PrySigneToFry * (+846)
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02:26:23 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133947 * PrySigneToFry * (+1500) Created page with "{{WIP}} is designed by PSTF. It is Brainfuck deriative. == Command Table == You must let the command to be an strange CJKV unified ideograms. {| class="wikitable" |+ Original Command |- ! !! Meaning |- | || Moves pointer to right |- | || Moves pointer to left |- |
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02:27:15 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133948&oldid=133928 * PrySigneToFry * (+10)
02:42:34 <esolangs> [[/A+B Problem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133949 * PrySigneToFry * (+9248) Created page with "== 8-bit integer addition == <pre> ..."
02:44:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133950&oldid=126128 * PrySigneToFry * (+44)
03:01:47 <esolangs> [[BrainSplited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133951&oldid=133919 * PrySigneToFry * (+29)
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03:10:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133952&oldid=133275 * PrySigneToFry * (+185) /* A new idea */ new section
03:11:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133953&oldid=133952 * PrySigneToFry * (+413)
03:27:44 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133954 * PrySigneToFry * (+2808) Created page with "PSTF == Syntax == All program must start with <code></code> and end with <code></code> == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command List |- ! Command !! Meaning !! Equivalence (in C++) |- | || Clears the screen || sysnem("cls"); |- | (x(ElemType)) || Makes a new var
03:41:36 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133955&oldid=133829 * PrySigneToFry * (+107)
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05:45:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133956&oldid=133948 * TheCanon2 * (+11) /* A */ Added Amtu
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06:51:18 <esolangs> [[When statement]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133957 * RainbowDash * (+400) Created page with "Inside by the COMEFROM instruction. A When statement is an idea thought of by ~~~ on 2024 July 25th. The idea is that the When statement executes all of the code inside of it the moment the statement is true. To code this you could check every When statement
06:55:39 <esolangs> [[When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133958&oldid=133957 * RainbowDash * (+291)
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07:01:46 <esolangs> [[When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133959&oldid=133958 * RainbowDash * (+187)
07:03:02 <esolangs> [[When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133960&oldid=133959 * RainbowDash * (-2) Code fix
07:14:47 <esolangs> [[When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133961&oldid=133960 * RainbowDash * (+0) Psuedocode smoothing
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09:47:56 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133962&oldid=133922 * Unname4798 * (+12)
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09:49:23 <esolangs> [[Tile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133963&oldid=133822 * Dtp09 * (+88) rewrote some f it again
09:56:55 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133964&oldid=133860 * HammyHammerhead * (+11) idk
09:57:34 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133965&oldid=133964 * HammyHammerhead * (+6)
10:31:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133966&oldid=133571 * Dungatoro * (+176) /* Introductions */
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12:32:48 <esolangs> [[When statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133967&oldid=133961 * Ais523 * (-45) don't hide the User: on links to userspace in general signatures are only intended for talk pages and should not be used on articles, which are written from a third-person point of view
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13:17:25 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133968&oldid=132574 * Dtp09 * (-75) fixed a dead link
13:22:33 <esolangs> [[Tile/Update Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133969&oldid=108681 * Dtp09 * (+136)
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14:30:02 <esolangs> [[DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133970&oldid=133818 * Gggfr * (-34)
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15:05:51 <esolangs> [[When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133971&oldid=133967 * RainbowDash * (+76) Third Person
15:06:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:When statement]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133972 * Corbin * (+788) Your idea is good! It's also not original.
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15:09:02 <esolangs> [[When statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133973&oldid=133971 * RainbowDash * (-197) Note takes up too much space
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15:11:48 <esolangs> [[When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133974&oldid=133973 * RainbowDash * (-9) Minor touch ups
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15:32:13 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133975&oldid=133872 * HammyHammerhead * (+61) Added command
15:35:51 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133976&oldid=131940 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+37)
15:36:16 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133977&oldid=133976 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+11)
15:37:30 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133978&oldid=133977 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) /* Robots */
15:38:36 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133979&oldid=133975 * HammyHammerhead * (-16)
15:39:25 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133980&oldid=133978 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-45) /* 99 bottles of beer */
15:40:01 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133981&oldid=133980 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-4) /* Calculator */
15:41:53 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133982&oldid=133981 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Modulo */
15:42:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Scratch is dumb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133983 * HammyHammerhead * (+0) Created blank page
15:43:41 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133984&oldid=133814 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+44)
15:44:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133985&oldid=133054 * Tommyaweosme * (+213) /* category:joke proofs */ new section
15:44:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133986&oldid=133985 * Tommyaweosme * (+162) /* category:joke proofs */
15:44:31 <esolangs> [[MinusGreater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133987&oldid=133808 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+27) /* truth-machine */
15:45:11 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133988&oldid=132626 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+27) /* CATEGORIES */
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15:48:42 <esolangs> [[MIRROR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133989&oldid=132624 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+40) /* Commands */
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16:24:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dtp09 * uploaded "[[File:Xkcd 221 tile.png]]": fair
16:28:30 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133991&oldid=133795 * Dtp09 * (+53) added Tile
16:29:03 <esolangs> [[AsciiDots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133992&oldid=133945 * TheCanon2 * (-237) Cleaned up the article
16:33:14 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133993&oldid=133734 * Dtp09 * (+58) added Tile
16:39:50 <esolangs> [[MIRROR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133994&oldid=133989 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-14) /* Truth Machine */
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17:53:18 <esolangs> [[When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133995&oldid=133974 * RainbowDash * (-146)
17:56:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Dtp09 * moved [[Texttile]] to [[Textile]] over redirect: the language is called textile
17:56:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Dtp09 * Dtp09 deleted redirect [[Textile]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Texttile]]"
17:57:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:When statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133998&oldid=133972 * RainbowDash * (+266) Response
17:59:22 <esolangs> [[Textile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133999&oldid=133996 * Dtp09 * (+57)
18:00:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:When statement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134000&oldid=133998 * RainbowDash * (-26) Fixed response
18:03:00 <esolangs> [[Textile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134001&oldid=133999 * Dtp09 * (+58)
18:07:02 <esolangs> [[7 bottles of tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134002&oldid=133725 * TheCanon2 * (+0) Shortened the Python script slightly
18:20:46 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134003&oldid=132019 * TheCanon2 * (+61) Added $+-? and Sakana
18:20:52 <fowl> can i call my new programming language brainfuck or is that considered a faux pas
18:31:52 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134004&oldid=133941 * TheCanon2 * (-66) Improved the truth machine
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19:03:55 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134005&oldid=133690 * Gggfr * (+12) /* syntax */
19:18:48 <esolangs> [[HeacunQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134006&oldid=117679 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+205) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the HeacunQ9+ programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag.
19:27:56 <esolangs> [[HeacunQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134007&oldid=134006 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+715) Reformatted the instruction listing as a table.
20:02:28 <korvo> I think I've sketched a Turing-machine-compatible way to search for counterexamples to the original Collatz problem and not just any weaker variants.
20:02:58 <korvo> I'll have to actually implement it before I can be confident that it works, but I whiteboarded the first few thousand steps and it seems plausible.
20:06:08 <korvo> The idea is to interleave two cycle detectors, one which is algorithmic and one which is structural. We'll pre-mark 1, 2, and 4, and start from 3. If a number isn't marked, Collatz-iterate it with a cycle-detector symbol until the pre-mark is found, then Collatz-iterate *again* to pre-mark the iteratees.
20:06:58 <korvo> If a cycle-detector symbol is found during the first iteration, then it's a new cycle which isn't part of the 1-2-4 graph: a counterexample! We can halt. Otherwise, loop forever, skipping pre-marked numbers.
20:07:18 <korvo> Not hard to sketch in Python, but definitely requires some data structures that we don't think of as being available in TM/BF.
20:09:58 <korvo> Oh, also we need side lemmas. (1) every vertex in the graph of a function has at least one outgoing edge (designating the function's output at that vertex) and, building on that, (2) every cycle in a function's graph has its own strongly-connected component.
20:10:59 <korvo> If you squint, you can see my algorithm as a variant of Tarjan's SCC finder. Pre-marking 1-2-4 ensures that we start on that SCC, and any other SCC is a counterexample.
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22:12:10 <fizzie> Rassum frassum crawlers, getting 4 req/s and median 50% CPU use and this time it's even just regular (fake) user agents, and doesn't obey robots.txt, and just keeps reading all the possible article diffs and also repeatedly fetching Special:CreateAccount because there's a link to it from every page with different URL parameters (because there's a `returnto=...` thing pointing where you came
22:12:44 <fizzie> Exclusively Chinese IP addresses, too.
22:14:29 <fizzie> I guess it's not _really_ causing any trouble, just annoying.
22:16:28 <fizzie> I've robots.txt-disallowlisted /w/ because you can read all the real content under /wiki/ URLs, and there's really no need for a crawler to try to read all the possible diffs.
22:20:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: is there a <link rel="canonical">?
22:20:19 <b_jonas> on the CreateAccount page I mean
22:20:42 <b_jonas> also is there a noindex thingy on the link to CreateAccount from every page?
22:21:19 <fizzie> There is a <link rel="canonical"> on Special:CreateAccount, but it includes the &returnto=X part, which is pretty silly.
22:23:06 <fizzie> There's no noindex/nofollow stuff in the "Create Account" link.
22:23:23 <fizzie> (It's of course all up to MediaWiki what it decides to do.)
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00:06:08 <esolangs> [[CW@ 3 cell brainfuck substitution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134008&oldid=132058 * RainbowDash * (-16) Caption text removal.
00:06:53 <esolangs> [[Trumf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134009&oldid=104603 * RainbowDash * (-16) Caption text removal.
00:07:07 <esolangs> [[D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134010&oldid=109112 * RainbowDash * (-16) Caption text removal.
00:07:43 <esolangs> [[Ribosome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134011&oldid=120134 * RainbowDash * (-16) Caption text removal.
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00:30:00 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134012 * RainbowDash * (+1363) Created page with "'''WORK IN PROGRESS DO NOT EDIT PLEASE ''' Neoff is an esolang created by [[User:RainbowDash]], There is 3 types of variables:</br> Number - 8 bit constant </br> Address - 8 bit </br> Text - No Bit Restriction. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Instructi
00:50:58 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134013&oldid=134012 * RainbowDash * (+712)
00:55:36 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134014&oldid=134013 * RainbowDash * (+22)
00:56:28 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134015&oldid=134014 * RainbowDash * (+0)
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01:31:46 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134016&oldid=133947 * PrySigneToFry * (+65)
01:36:04 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134017&oldid=128815 * PrySigneToFry * (+1174)
01:36:59 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134018&oldid=134015 * RainbowDash * (+915) Added Programs
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01:44:11 <esolangs> [[.Z.6.S.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134020 * PrySigneToFry * (+401) Created page with ".Z.6.S.(if you remove the points and then you read it in Shidinn, you will get <nowiki>[zs]</nowiki>) is designed by PSTF. It is completely use Greek to program. == Syntax == Just speak Greek. == Programs == They're in [[.Z.6.S.|Programs]]. == Categories == [[Ca
01:44:21 <esolangs> [[.Z.6.S.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134021&oldid=134020 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
01:47:32 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134022&oldid=134019 * RainbowDash * (+212)
01:49:50 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134023&oldid=134022 * RainbowDash * (-6) Table fixing
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01:54:28 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134024&oldid=134023 * RainbowDash * (-102) Extra set instruction
01:55:45 <esolangs> [[.Z.6.S./Programs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134025 * PrySigneToFry * (+9139) Created page with "Main Page: [[.Z.6.S.]] == Hello, world! == " !" , . == A+B Problem == , , . == FizzBuzz == <pre> 1 1000. n, :..."
01:56:44 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134026&oldid=134024 * RainbowDash * (+29) Categories
01:57:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134027&oldid=133956 * PrySigneToFry * (+14)
01:58:36 <esolangs> [[.Z.6.S./Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134028&oldid=134025 * PrySigneToFry * (-56)
02:05:07 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134029&oldid=133968 * PrySigneToFry * (+783)
02:09:22 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134030&oldid=134029 * PrySigneToFry * (+517)
02:11:16 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134031&oldid=130578 * RainbowDash * (+200)
04:41:40 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134032&oldid=133898 * TheCanon2 * (+132) Mentioned how Amtu is an OISC
04:52:54 <korvo> TIL there's a proposed proof of the weak Goldbach conjecture: https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.7748 It uses fairly fancy techniques.
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05:08:26 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134033&oldid=134032 * TheCanon2 * (+277) Clarified the actual nature of Amtu scripts
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05:55:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134034&oldid=133636 * Gggfr * (+47)
06:01:35 <zzo38> I had read about a variant of Wigner's friend, where they suggested using a AI running on a quantum computer, instead of a live person. Since it is a quantum computer this makes it reversible, and the live person will toss a coin (after making a measurement, which is presumably independent of the coin) to decide whether or not to reverse the computer.
06:04:59 <zzo38> They had made three assumptions, which they say, that, together with the experiment, cannot all be true: (1) Freedom of choice how to make the measurement. (2) Locality (things in a part of spacetime does not affect others faster than the speed of light). (3) The observers will agree on the result of the measurement.
06:06:36 <zzo38> (I actually think there are problems with all three of these assumptions. However, I think that this "locality" should not require an interaction to only go one way in time; maybe there are ways to go two ways at once, which, at least to me, seems relevant for some kinds of experiments involving quantum entanglement.)
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06:53:26 <b_jonas> great. VLC is crashing unless I disable hardware-accelerated decoding.
06:55:44 <korvo> zzo38: That combination of assumptions reminds me of Bell-Kochen-Specker, or more pointedly Conway's Free Will theorem.
06:56:00 <korvo> Wigner's friend is always a tricky setup. There's so many hidden assumptions.
06:57:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: that doesn't sound like it makes sense. a quantum computer specifically isn't reversible after making a measurement.
07:04:59 <korvo> You can e.g. add a human to a delayed-choice quantum eraser. You just have to assume the worst; Wigner's friend has to become entangled with the system.
07:05:14 <korvo> Revenge of the Everettians, I suppose.
07:05:17 <zzo38> I may have made some details wrong, and also had written it wrong.
07:09:27 <zzo38> And, about the delayed-choice quantum eraser, that is what I thought too, about becoming entangled with the system in that way.
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09:40:54 <esolangs> [[/99 bottles of beer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134035 * PrySigneToFry * (+3194) Created page with "'Cause it is too long, so I can only use Shortened to write it. <pre> ..."
09:45:21 <esolangs> [[/99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134036&oldid=134035 * PrySigneToFry * (-2934) Replaced content with "'Cause it is too long, so I can only use Shortened to write it. But it is still too long, so I encoded it with SHA512. <pre> 77365e15eaa816809633df375a7403999747cfb370085d1ef5114c0ffcedc89b35c3c6521700a0d67fa1864589c0cfc7bba30289c058c0
09:46:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134037&oldid=133950 * PrySigneToFry * (+84)
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10:08:08 <esolangs> [[/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134038&oldid=128757 * PrySigneToFry * (+815)
10:11:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134039&oldid=133495 * PrySigneToFry * (+579) /* */ new section
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11:45:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sclipting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134040&oldid=50545 * PrySigneToFry * (+551) /* Question for Sclipting */ new section
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13:08:28 <esolangs> [[LOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134041&oldid=132426 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (-15)
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13:44:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * L4.m2 * New user account
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14:04:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134042&oldid=133966 * L4.m2 * (+150) /* Introductions */
14:04:30 <esolangs> [[Reciprocal Lenguage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134043 * L4.m2 * (+764) Create page
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14:31:55 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134044&oldid=133935 * TheCanon2 * (+26) Added Divmeq to the list
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14:42:14 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1306.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
14:42:23 <Sgeo> (And also Snips Snails and Dragon Tails available for purchase)
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15:23:25 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134045 * TheCanon2 * (+1338) Created the Divmeq article
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15:56:02 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134046&oldid=134045 * TheCanon2 * (+811) Added an interpreter
16:01:28 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134047&oldid=134046 * TheCanon2 * (+81) added detail about interpreter
16:10:43 <int-e> So close yet so far... so the DOM has a Path2D API that goes together with 2d contexts for canvases (and a few other things). You can use these to either draw immediately (stroke(), fill()), or as a part of a bigger path (addPath()). The latter lets you transform the path while you're using it... thr former doesn't. Why? (Note that if you adjust the transformation matrix on a 2d context then...
16:10:49 <int-e> ...that'll affect the stroke width...)
16:23:16 <cpressey> int-e: The path/canvas API has always felt to me like it is hiding a few hysterical raisins, but, if you feel that functionality is missing, can't you work around it somewhat by doing something like, addPath to an empty path just before calling stroke/fill?
16:23:56 <int-e> Yes but then I have an extra temporary object that feels... wrong.
16:24:06 <int-e> I mean I'll cope :P
16:24:20 <int-e> But I'm mildy saddened by this. Hence the complaint :)
16:26:02 <int-e> My feeling is that 2d contexts should have their own addPath()
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16:26:39 <int-e> (you /can/ change the transformation matrix between creating a path and stroke())
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16:29:23 <int-e> I do like the fact that I can construct a Path2D object from an SVG path description.
16:29:56 <cpressey> Real Graphics Programmers eschew this nonsense, and write only pixel shaders.
16:31:24 <int-e> I might render to an offscreen buffer of sorts and blit it later
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16:33:03 <int-e> But I'm not in the mood of writing a hundred lines of code to render a few basic geometric shapes with outlines.
16:35:08 <int-e> Not when I can write a dozen lines around this instead and be fast enough anyway :P https://paste.debian.net/1324443/ (it's once again about shapez.io)
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16:42:10 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134048&oldid=134047 * TheCanon2 * (+69) Modified the interpreter to fix float-related problems, at the expense of some TC-ness
16:52:33 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134049&oldid=134048 * TheCanon2 * (+1) flipped signs
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17:00:37 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134050&oldid=134049 * TheCanon2 * (+0) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134049|134049]] by [[Special:Contributions/TheCanon2|TheCanon2]] ([[User talk:TheCanon2|talk]])
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17:41:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IntCodeFan * New user account
17:48:23 <esolangs> [[*&&^Jj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134051&oldid=131759 * Gggfr * (+0)
17:52:11 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134052&oldid=133955 * L4.m2 * (+26)
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18:48:57 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134053&oldid=134026 * RainbowDash * (-26) Pronunciation + WIP removal
18:50:24 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134054&oldid=134053 * RainbowDash * (+15) Average human readable pronouncation
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18:52:26 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134055 * Matronator * (+7462) Create PIKOlang (Product In Kilos Only) page
18:55:44 <ais523> <cpressey> Real Graphics Programmers eschew this nonsense, and write only pixel shaders. ← I suspect a Real Graphics Programmer would use all the hardware available on the graphics card to produce graphics as quickly as possible, and that might involve substantial subsets of it not being used for their intended purpose
18:55:58 <ais523> but I think at least the vertex shader units would be involved somehow
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19:00:10 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134056&oldid=134055 * Matronator * (+318) /* Online playground */
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19:02:45 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134057&oldid=134056 * Matronator * (-271) /* Syntax */
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19:05:54 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134058&oldid=134057 * Matronator * (+17) /* Memory */
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19:17:30 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134059&oldid=134058 * Matronator * (+177) add code examples
19:32:04 <esolangs> [[Angry people outside my house]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134060 * Tommyaweosme * (+671) based on a true events
19:52:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[PIKOlang]]": Copyright violation: the page appears to contain a licensing requirement, which would make it not public domain
19:55:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Matronator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134061 * Ais523 * (+489) warning for submitting content that requires a license
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20:18:35 <esolangs> [[oxck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134062&oldid=133908 * Ais523 * (+32) see also
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20:48:02 <esolangs> [[Reciprocal Lenguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134063&oldid=134043 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) Categories
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21:43:10 <esolangs> [[Turnip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134064 * Dungatoro * (+1495) Created page with "= Turnip = Turnip is a programming language for the 2D terminal-based Turing machine sim, [https://github.com/dungatoro/turnip Turnip]. Turnip code defines the starting configuration of a machine, possible states and operations performed before switching states. Many o
21:46:05 <esolangs> [[Turnip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134065&oldid=134064 * Dungatoro * (-11)
21:47:01 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134066&oldid=134027 * Dungatoro * (+13)
21:56:10 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Game rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134067&oldid=133544 * Zzo38 * (+11025)
21:58:03 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Game rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134068&oldid=134067 * Zzo38 * (+180)
22:03:46 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134069&oldid=134050 * TheCanon2 * (+517) I formally add a new case for A == 0
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22:18:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Matronator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134070&oldid=134061 * Matronator * (+168) /* Copyright policy violation */
22:21:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Matronator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134071&oldid=134070 * Matronator * (+349) /* Copyright policy violation */
22:22:15 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134072&oldid=134069 * TheCanon2 * (+102) added increment
22:23:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134073&oldid=133784 * Matronator * (+484) /* Deleted PIKOLang page */ new section
22:25:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * undeleted "[[PIKOlang]]": author says they will fix the licensing situation
22:26:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134074&oldid=134073 * Ais523 * (+189) /* Deleted PIKOLang page */ undeleted, but please don't apply license restrictions to it.
22:29:53 <fizzie> Didn't really want to do it, but had to rate-limit (very approximately) China to 1 req/s, it was getting kinda ridiculous, peaking at 15 req/s and driving wiki median latency to like 10s at times.
22:30:04 <fizzie> (Which also implies the wiki serving infrastructure isn't really up to it if it ever were to become popular, but hopefully the subject matter will sufficiently discourage that.)
22:30:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:Matronator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134075&oldid=134071 * Ais523 * (+181) undeleted, please fix the license
22:31:55 <ais523> well, it's much more popular than when it started
22:32:00 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134076&oldid=134072 * TheCanon2 * (+57) added decrement example
22:32:08 <ais523> I used to be able to read every edit easily, I can't really do that nowadays
22:35:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Matronator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134077&oldid=134075 * Matronator * (+148) /* Copyright policy violation */
22:38:23 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134078&oldid=134059 * Matronator * (-857) fix trademark usage, change link to playground to https
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22:50:39 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134079&oldid=134078 * Matronator * (+134) /* PIKOlang (Praise Innovative Kubernetes Operators) */
23:16:34 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134080&oldid=134076 * TheCanon2 * (-601) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134069|134069]] by [[Special:Contributions/TheCanon2|TheCanon2]] ([[User talk:TheCanon2|talk]]) I formally remove the 0 case
23:51:13 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134081&oldid=134080 * TheCanon2 * (+4) Formatting
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00:21:10 <esolangs> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134082&oldid=125724 * TheCanon2 * (+107) Added Divmeq to the list, info may be incorrect
00:29:11 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134083&oldid=134081 * TheCanon2 * (+26) reworded
00:37:16 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134084&oldid=134054 * RainbowDash * (+65) Syntax fixes
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00:49:49 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134085&oldid=134084 * RainbowDash * (+0) OCD sorting
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01:46:41 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134086&oldid=134083 * TheCanon2 * (+229) Added A+B and A-B problems
03:00:11 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134087&oldid=134086 * TheCanon2 * (+90) added explanation about the a+b program
03:07:23 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134088&oldid=132628 * TheCanon2 * (+509) added a ton of commands
04:11:36 <zzo38> I had made brief descriptions of some of the games that b_jonas listed (as well as an implementation of one of them) as well as a few that b_jonas did not do. Possibly you are able to write some things that I had missed. For example, some games (especially Magic: the Gathering) have been used with some esolangs and it might be worth to mention that.
04:15:40 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Game rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134089&oldid=134068 * Zzo38 * (+176)
04:39:00 <esolangs> [[Jeb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134090 * Infinitehexagon * (+2027) Created page with "'''Jeb''', pronounced /ev/ is an esolang created by [[User:Infinitehexagon]]. This is his first esolang in months. ==Syntax== Almost all instructions require at least one or two arguments. je a ej a b Only one instruction uses three arguments, and that's <code>
04:39:21 <esolangs> [[User:Infinitehexagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134091&oldid=125004 * Infinitehexagon * (+12) /* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
04:40:07 <esolangs> [[Jeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134092&oldid=134090 * Infinitehexagon * (-3) /* Hello World program */
04:40:26 <esolangs> [[Jeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134093&oldid=134092 * Infinitehexagon * (+2) /* Hello World program */
04:42:57 <esolangs> [[Jeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134094&oldid=134093 * Infinitehexagon * (+65)
05:05:26 <esolangs> [[Jeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134095&oldid=134094 * Infinitehexagon * (+565)
05:08:32 <esolangs> [[Jeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134096&oldid=134095 * Infinitehexagon * (+21)
05:15:19 <esolangs> [[Jeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134097&oldid=134096 * Infinitehexagon * (+4)
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07:26:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:End]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134098&oldid=131378 * Gggfr * (+115)
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09:28:32 <esolangs> [[J]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134099 * Gggfr * (+706) Created page with "'''J''' is a very simple esolang my for no reason at all. It was invented by [[User:Yayimhere]] === Syntax === J stores memory in variables. Variables are created like this: * A B Where A is the name and B is the string. There are 4 operators: * <code>J</code> Will take the inp
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10:10:57 <esolangs> [[J]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134100&oldid=134099 * Gggfr * (+864)
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10:54:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Gggfr * uploaded "[[File:J logo.png]]"
10:55:02 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134102&oldid=134085 * RainbowDash * (+62)
11:04:28 <esolangs> [[Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134103&oldid=126475 * Tromp * (-7) fix correspondence between bits and booleans
11:33:43 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134104&oldid=133848 * HammyHammerhead * (+129) /* Commands */
11:39:40 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134105&oldid=134104 * HammyHammerhead * (+50) /* Examples */
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14:09:50 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134106&oldid=134088 * Tommyaweosme * (+43)
14:10:00 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134107&oldid=134106 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* = Unimplemented commands (unofficial) */
14:28:26 <esolangs> [[J]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134108&oldid=134100 * Gggfr * (+46)
14:45:04 <esolangs> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134109&oldid=134082 * Ais523 * (-21) /* List of OISCs */ fix Divmeq
14:47:41 <esolangs> [[Brainpocalypse II]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134110&oldid=128040 * Ais523 * (-42) /* Minimized version */ clarify
14:52:43 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134111&oldid=134031 * RainbowDash * (-175) /* Esolangs I've made. */
15:01:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:!aoQ):]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134112&oldid=133030 * Gggfr * (+79)
15:02:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:!aoQ):]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134113&oldid=134112 * Gggfr * (+3)
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15:15:15 <esolangs> [[J]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134114&oldid=134108 * Gggfr * (-63) /* examples */
15:15:29 <esolangs> [[J]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134115&oldid=134114 * Gggfr * (+5)
15:22:55 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134116&oldid=134087 * TheCanon2 * (-7) wrote a shorter subtraction program
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15:55:26 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134117 * Gggfr * (+1033) Created page with "'''()()(())''' is another bracket esolang. YAAY. It was created by [[User:Yayimhere]] 3 === memory === memory is stored in a unbounded binary accumulator === definitions backend : the first byte in the accumulator front end : the last byte in the accumulator nesting : th
15:55:40 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134118&oldid=134117 * Gggfr * (+4)
15:58:25 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134119&oldid=134118 * Gggfr * (+13)
16:01:15 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134120&oldid=134119 * Gggfr * (+174)
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16:12:44 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134121 * Leomok2009 * (+1435) Created page with "I am User:LEOMOK, here to make Python trash. ==How I made it trash== This programming language is exactly the same as normal Python, but: # The underscore <code>_</code> is not allowed, even in strings. Same for expressions and escape codes that produce
16:17:32 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134122&oldid=134121 * Leomok2009 * (+292)
16:18:59 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134123&oldid=134122 * Leomok2009 * (+14)
16:20:36 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134124&oldid=134120 * Gggfr * (+370)
16:21:39 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134125&oldid=134116 * TheCanon2 * (+4) In the interpreter, switched float to eval to allow fractions in the programs
16:24:27 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134126&oldid=134124 * Gggfr * (+7) /* examples */
16:24:48 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134127&oldid=134123 * Leomok2009 * (+35)
16:29:39 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134128&oldid=134044 * TheCanon2 * (+103) reworded the eso-section
16:32:40 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134129&oldid=134126 * Gggfr * (-41) /* examples */
16:34:17 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134130&oldid=133705 * Gggfr * (+31) /* XUS */
16:42:06 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134131&oldid=134129 * Gggfr * (-2)
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17:16:15 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134132&oldid=134130 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Examples */
17:17:11 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134133&oldid=134131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Categories
17:18:14 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134134&oldid=134125 * TheCanon2 * (+258) explained why I made divmeq
17:22:50 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134135&oldid=134127 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) Categories
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17:25:49 <esolangs> [[J]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134136&oldid=134115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) Distinguish confusion, add categories
17:34:07 <esolangs> [[Angry people outside my house]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134137&oldid=134060 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) Categories
17:36:00 <esolangs> [[Yee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134138&oldid=133899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) Categories
17:41:25 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134139&oldid=134133 * Gggfr * (+22) /* examples */
17:41:55 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134140&oldid=134139 * Gggfr * (+1) /* syntax */
17:43:30 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134141&oldid=134079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Categories
17:49:47 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134142&oldid=134140 * Gggfr * (+0) /* examples */
17:51:42 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134143&oldid=134142 * Gggfr * (+65)
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18:29:54 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134144&oldid=134143 * Gggfr * (+27)
18:32:09 <esolangs> [[Turnip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134145&oldid=134065 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+341) Convert to wikitext, add categories
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19:25:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134146&oldid=133633 * Dungatoro * (+168)
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19:31:20 <esolangs> [[The ()lang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134147 * Gggfr * (+654) Created page with "'''the ()lang''' is any esolang that follows these rules: * ()() evaluates to (()) * every logic gates takes up only 5 lines * the $ will take a input x and produce a function that will always return x unless the funtion input is x then it will output something else suc
19:31:49 <esolangs> [[The ()lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134148&oldid=134147 * Gggfr * (+54)
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20:06:56 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134149&oldid=134141 * Matronator * (+124) /* Online playground */
20:07:47 <esolangs> [[PIKOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134150&oldid=134149 * Matronator * (+84) /* Download interpreter */
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21:02:15 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134151&oldid=132612 * Squareroot12621 * (+273) Added <code>s to the Character column.
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21:13:14 <esolangs> [[User:Squareroot12621]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134152&oldid=132217 * Squareroot12621 * (+210) {{lowercase}}, split esolangs into years, added descriptions.
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00:20:17 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134153&oldid=128034 * TheCanon2 * (+108) Added a link to the one-register Minsky machine variant
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00:45:29 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134154&oldid=134153 * TheCanon2 * (+568) Explained how the 14.2 variant is Turing complete, since it is not immediately obvious
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02:32:37 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134155&oldid=134135 * Leomok2009 * (-126) Removed underscores
02:32:55 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134156&oldid=134155 * Leomok2009 * (-1)
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03:35:24 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134157&oldid=134156 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) Categories
03:39:00 <esolangs> [[Greguov-Korec universal Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134158&oldid=128033 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) Categories
03:41:45 <esolangs> [[NGGYU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134159&oldid=127289 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) Category
03:47:00 <esolangs> [[The ()lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134160&oldid=134148 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) Lowercase, category
03:52:35 <esolangs> [[When]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134161&oldid=30807 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) Distinguish confusion
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05:33:28 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134162&oldid=134134 * TheCanon2 * (+61)
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09:40:34 <esolangs> [[EVM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134163&oldid=117623 * Gggfr * (+0)
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12:57:03 <esolangs> [[Do my esolangs even have meaning anymore or am i just part of an infinite factory making brainfuck clones until the end of eternity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134164 * Tommyaweosme * (+1419) Created page with "Do my esolangs even have meaning anymore or am i just part of an infinite factory making brainfuck clones until the end of eternity is an [[e
12:57:50 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134165&oldid=133901 * Tommyaweosme * (+138)
13:01:39 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134166&oldid=131077 * Tommyaweosme * (+7) sorry, i had to correct this
13:04:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck speed test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134167&oldid=115626 * Tommyaweosme * (+284)
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13:13:03 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134168&oldid=134154 * B jonas * (+14) /* The section 14.2 Minsky machine */
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13:33:25 <b_jonas> fungot, what's your birthday?
13:33:25 <fungot> b_jonas: such is the beauty of languages for me). it's in r5rs
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15:02:14 <fizzie> fungot: How did you get your birthday recorded in the Scheme standard? And doesn't R5RS predate you?
15:02:15 <fungot> fizzie: you might have meant
15:03:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:10D Deadfish 7 with Time Travel and a Multiverse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134169 * HammyHammerhead * (+0) Created blank page
15:04:14 <int-e> fungot: so where is that time machine?
15:04:15 <fungot> int-e: xxx x x x x x x) is syntax groups, is sets, and using cont
15:04:49 <fizzie> As part of the neverending quest to improve the wiki infrastructure, planning to set up MariaDB replication so that the backups are no longer just weekly affairs but effectively real-time. Since these days there's so many edits a week.
15:04:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
15:05:00 <int-e> too manyt prefixes...
15:05:07 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
15:05:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:10D Deadfish 7 with Time Travel and a Multiverse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134170&oldid=134169 * HammyHammerhead * (+107) /* Command discussion */ new section
15:05:17 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
15:06:10 <int-e> fizzie: tbf I was pretty sure that my second guess was correct :)
15:09:38 <fizzie> Heh, this piece of "you have a delivery and need to pay some fees" spam has been translated to Finnish reasonably well, except the message is signed by "Kuninkaallinen Posti", or in other words "Royal Mail".
15:09:55 <fizzie> Of course it's always possible they've crowned a King or a Queen of Finland while we've been gone.
15:12:46 <int-e> Spam can be weird. I recently had one allegedly by a finnish(!) immigrant to the UK who wanted to hire a full-time tutor to ensure a proper education for his kids. I didn't quite understand what the scam would be. I imagine it would be an advance fee scam but how do you pull that off when you're presenting as somebody who has a 4 digit amount of pounds to spare per month?
15:13:43 <int-e> Oh I made a terrible blunder, it was Sweden. My apologies.
15:16:37 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
15:17:30 <int-e> Oh right, that's one more reason to detonate the Sun.
15:17:54 <perlbot> b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
15:18:11 <int-e> I don't know what the third sentence means.
15:18:12 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
15:18:50 <HackEso> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg . He understands how it actually works.
15:19:14 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
15:19:54 <int-e> Is that Go the game, or Go the language, or both?
15:19:58 <b_jonas> Cthulhuquagdonic Mothraquagdonic Narwhalicorn better be one of those lists
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16:06:33 <fizzie> I don't think Swedish "står för sig själv" means anything else than the literal English translation of "stands for itself", as in, "requires no supporting evidence / further explanation" or other things of that nature.
16:09:49 <int-e> fizzie: I miscounted, it's the fourth sentence that I don't understand.
16:10:09 <int-e> (something about dissonance)
16:10:55 <int-e> the trouble with small numbers is that there are so many of them
16:36:14 <fizzie> "He/she doesn't like colours, but he does like dissonance" is what I assumed it means. Not sure why it switches from gender-neutral to male halfway through.
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16:53:40 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134171&oldid=134162 * TheCanon2 * (+115) Wrote golfed versions of the addition and subtraction programs
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17:23:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134172&oldid=133593 * TheCanon2 * (+53) Acknowledged the issue of finding Sakanas computational class
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19:49:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134173 * TheCanon2 * (+215) Created the talk page
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20:12:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134174&oldid=134173 * TheCanon2 * (+656) /* Programming tutorial */ new section
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20:51:13 <int-e> b_jonas: I made an almost useless thing: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/shapez-oracle/
20:59:23 <esolangs> [[ScriptJava]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134175&oldid=88799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
21:01:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134176&oldid=134174 * TheCanon2 * (+1130) Added sections for single-values and brainfuck-style loops
21:05:21 <b_jonas> int-e: this seems to indicate that RuRuRuRu:--------:CuCuCuCu is possible
21:06:03 <b_jonas> it would also be better if it provided proof for possible shapes by showing a method of construction somehow, like a tree with simple inputs in their leaves
21:06:53 <int-e> Huh! Okay, I'll have to debug that...
21:07:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134177&oldid=134176 * TheCanon2 * (+10) /* Programming tutorial */ fixed grammar
21:25:48 <int-e> Oh no, I aliased two memory regions while optimizing the code.
21:25:54 <salpynx> is there a standard (information theoretic) term for a unary "bit" equivalent? base3 = trit, base2 = bit, base1 = ???
21:27:47 <b_jonas> salpynx: uh, a tally mark?
21:30:02 <salpynx> that was the best I could think of too, tally / mark / symbol, but it sounds a bit informal. I thought I'd seen something like "uit" somewhere, but maybe that's too silly
21:36:40 <int-e> b_jonas: Okay, fixed that.
21:37:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I can't easily extract a recipe from this though :P
21:40:56 <int-e> If I did it would look very silly too.
21:41:50 <int-e> Anyway, the lack of recipes is why I wrote "almost useless".
21:54:54 <int-e> b_jonas: that was a good catch; only 443 templates were corrupted in the resulting table.
22:03:04 <int-e> oh god there's another bug
22:07:39 <b_jonas> wait, "optimizing the code"? isn't this just a single table less than 64 kilobits in size that you compute once and do a single lookup in, since you aren't getting a recipe, only a bool for whether the shape is possible?
22:08:24 <int-e> anyway the other bug was on the javascript side
22:08:30 <int-e> so easier to fix, done
22:09:04 <int-e> b_jonas: the table compressed into a 447 bytes .wasm file :P
22:10:20 <b_jonas> did any of the bugs get into your machine in the shapez save?
22:11:14 <int-e> It was all in the part where I started to manually optimize web assembly that I got from Rust.
22:11:45 <b_jonas> well that makes more sense
22:12:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134178&oldid=134177 * TheCanon2 * (+817) Created and documented an assembly notation for Divmeq
22:13:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134179&oldid=134178 * TheCanon2 * (+4) made a mistake
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22:18:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134180&oldid=134179 * TheCanon2 * (+4) ctm
22:22:09 <int-e> b_jonas: before that manual optimization it was 1060 bytes and allocated 1M of memory instead of just the table
22:23:06 <int-e> so... while it's not exactly sane to mess around at the web assembly level, it did pay off
22:30:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134181&oldid=134180 * TheCanon2 * (+229)
22:34:32 <int-e> b_jonas: It turns out you can get everything by stacking zigzag shapes like Cu------:--Cu----:Cu------:--Cu---- from below (or prefixes thereof, or rotations or mirror images, so 28 shapes in total), or rotations of Cu------:--Cu---- from above (no mirrored versions required, somehow). Which is a lot cheaper than stacking every pair of possible templates. But the only way to verify this is to...
22:34:38 <int-e> ...check that you still get all the templates.
22:36:45 <int-e> which condenses to this... uh... beautiful? code. https://paste.debian.net/1324668/
22:40:36 <b_jonas> int-e: only now https://int-e.eu/~bf3/shapez-oracle/ says that -------- is possible, which is wrong
22:42:15 <b_jonas> and also says that RuRu----:-------- is possible
22:43:01 <int-e> Yeah I know, the former is a quirk of the enumeration and the latter is an incomplete validity check for *encodings* of shapes
22:43:31 <int-e> I'll fix the former; not sure whether I want to fix the latter.
22:44:03 <int-e> (the way I wrote the code, RuRu----:-------- is an alternative encoding of RuRu----)
23:02:23 <int-e> 456 bytes now. Oh well.
23:11:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134182&oldid=134181 * TheCanon2 * (+396) added section for for loops
23:13:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134183&oldid=134182 * TheCanon2 * (+56) fixed typo
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00:57:43 <int-e> This looks cute, I think: https://viewer.shapez.io/?--Wb----:Cg--Cg--:--Sr--Cc:Rw--Rw--
01:25:57 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134184&oldid=134128 * TheCanon2 * (+25) Added Ichi
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01:44:52 <Sgeo> Would online multiplayer games be a usecase for reversible computing? If a client mispredicts, just reverse the computation a bit?
01:47:07 <int-e> In principle, perhaps; in practice I suspect they maintain more than one game state (one definitive and one with tentative changes).
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01:51:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134185&oldid=70794 * BoundedBeans * (+389)
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02:11:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134186&oldid=134185 * BoundedBeans * (+293)
02:19:59 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134187 * TheCanon2 * (+1088) Added ichi
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02:43:09 <esolangs> [[Fractran]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134188&oldid=118705 * Salpynx * (+25) /* External resources */ pre-1993, (papers and articles from the 80s exist on Fractran)
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02:44:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134189&oldid=132982 * Ais523 * (+547) /* Clarification for "Unusable for programming" category */ some thoughts
02:55:43 <esolangs> [[SLet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134190 * ZCX islptng * (+713) Created page with "This esolangs has 5 data types: 1.Set: e.g. {1,2,3} 2.Instruction: e.g. Print "Hello, world!" 3.List: e.g. [{1},{2},{3}] 4.Boolean: True or False 5.Nil: just like lua's A program is written in 1 line. Comments are written between parentheses. Commands are only l
03:14:06 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134191&oldid=134187 * TheCanon2 * (+1156) Completed the article
03:16:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134192&oldid=134186 * BoundedBeans * (+1)
03:21:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134193&oldid=134066 * TheCanon2 * (+39) Added Ruckfish, Divmeq, and Ichi
03:35:11 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134194&oldid=134191 * TheCanon2 * (+69) Added truth machine and a category
03:51:48 <esolangs> [[Simpler Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134195&oldid=79061 * Ais523 * (+1) /* I/O */ O has to be positive, not just nonzero (but I can be negative)
03:54:58 <esolangs> [[Simpler Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134196&oldid=134195 * Ais523 * (-11) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/79061|79061]] by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) complexity class and computational class are different concepts, and this section is primarily talking about t
04:42:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134197&oldid=134074 * BoundedBeans * (+1468) Funge98 C-INTERCAL encoding bug while linking
05:05:27 <HackEso> U+1DFF4 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9d bf b4 UTF-16BE: d837dff4 Decimal: 𝿴 \ () \ Uppercase: U+1DFF4 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
05:07:49 <salpynx> the Unicode character I want was provisionally assigned a code point 5 days ago MODIFIER LETTER SMALL GREEK OMEGA
05:09:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134198&oldid=134197 * Ais523 * (+1033) /* C-INTERCAL with Funge-98 bug */ some ideas
05:13:10 <salpynx> the proposal is for IPA usage, I want a superscript to denote an infinite string: a<sup>ω</sup> infintely many repetitions of a
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05:32:18 <esolangs> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134199&oldid=134109 * TheCanon2 * (+148) Added Ichi, but the info may be wrong
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05:35:35 <zzo38> Another alternative would be to use a different character set, although that will not be applicable if it is a document that does not use that character set, of course. Another another alternative would be to use HTML (or other rich formats) like you had described so t hat the character is not needed, I suppose.
05:39:58 <esolangs> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134200&oldid=134199 * TheCanon2 * (-16) cleaned up
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07:16:12 <esolangs> [[Xx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134201 * Gggfr * (+1155) Created page with "'''Xx''' is a minimalist esolang inspired by [[underload]] === memory === memory is stored in a tape starting with only one cell containing the letter <code>A</code>. the tape is circular so going to the end of the tape will bring you back to the start === syntax === Command
07:17:02 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134202&oldid=134201 * Gggfr * (+14)
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07:38:08 <esolangs> [[Genera Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134203&oldid=125981 * PkmnQ * (+2) /* Semantics */ Probably better wording
07:45:15 <esolangs> [[Python but it's trash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134204&oldid=134157 * PkmnQ * (-141) No need for factorials
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11:55:17 <Raoof> hello all, I came up with Ar2 (if you remember Ar from a few weeks ago) that only has one operation, one python function from Z* to Z that I conjecture you can use to define any other python function from Z^k to Z. anybody here interested to compute ackermann function with this function or show that it is not possible to compute ackermann function
11:55:17 <Raoof> using this function
11:58:15 <Raoof> you can find the source code of Ar2 [here](https://github.com/raoofha/Ar/blob/main/Ar2.py)
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14:24:15 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134205&oldid=134202 * Gggfr * (+70) /* syntax */
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15:06:21 <Raoof> ais523 have you looked at Ar2 ?
15:08:52 <ais523> that general approach is usually capable of creating a TC language
15:09:31 <ais523> although I can't immediately see a way to create a control structure capable of looping
15:11:03 <ais523> it's also a lot less tarpitty than I'd normally expect for something like that – generally such languages are defined to be just powerful enough to be TC, rather than having a range of operators like that
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15:11:56 <ais523> but, if you're looking for counterexamples, pick a function that requires TCness to calculate, such as a Spiral Rise interpreter
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15:17:38 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134206&oldid=134184 * TheCanon2 * (+12) Subleq
15:18:26 <wib_jonas> (see https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-02.html#lDb for previous discussion)
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15:22:07 <Raoof> ais523 since I'm looking for a total model of computation as far as I know it's not possible to interpret a partial language
15:28:18 <wib_jonas> Say you have a language with class inheritence, like python or C++. You have a library L that implements an interface/trait I, and a class P that implements I. There can be a third-party library M which uses L, and defines Q a subclass of P, and Q overrides the implementation of I's methods to something that differs from the original (but may call
15:28:19 <wib_jonas> its methods). Later you realize that you want an interface J that is similar to I but better, perhaps you can even implement I's methods from J's methods generically but this isn't required for my problem. If a class implements J then its implementation of I should behave consistently with its implementation of I. (Imagine Monad and Functor, or
15:28:19 <wib_jonas> less-than compare and three-way compare.) Now if you just modify L so P implements J then Q will suddenly be broken, because it will inherit an implementation of J that is inconsistent with the implementation of I. Is there a sane way to make sure this can't happen?
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15:49:50 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134207&oldid=134194 * TheCanon2 * (+158) noted that divmeq is still better for tcness despite ichi being simpler
15:55:36 <wib_jonas> I guess this is why inheritance sucks
15:59:02 <ais523> Raoof: ah – it is impossible in general to create a computable language that implements all total functions but is total itself
15:59:11 <ais523> because that would let you solve the halting problem
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16:04:28 <Raoof> ais523 how do you prove that such a language let you solve the halting problem ? because I think that Ar2 or Ar3 (with hyperoperation as one of the basis) does not solve the halting problem it is just a total language on it's own
16:05:59 <Raoof> I also think that Ar1 aka Ar has a good chance of being a total model of computation
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16:12:43 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134208&oldid=134004 * TheCanon2 * (-3) Register, not accumulator
16:15:25 <Raoof> ais523 notice that an anti-diagonal function is definable in Ar,Ar2 and Ar3
16:26:30 <ais523> it doesn't matter – you cannot write an interpreter, in a computable language, for a total language that is capable of implementing all total functions
16:27:19 <ais523> because, it is known that there are total functions for which it is impossible to prove that they're total (using a proof language for which a computable language is capable of verifying tge proof)
16:27:59 <ais523> a language that's constructed to be total is, in effect, a method of proving that the programs written in it are total – and as such, there will always be total programs it can't implement
16:28:34 <ais523> actually, hmm, I think I have that backwards
16:29:20 <ais523> I'm sorry it is possible to construct a total language which can run all total programs – you simply make an execution trace (that demonstrates halting) part of the program
16:29:33 <ais523> it would not be useful, because you would have to run the programs already to construct the trace
16:30:05 <ais523> as for total *functions*, though, I think it's still impossible
16:30:12 <ais523> because the same workaround doesn't wrk
16:30:29 <ais523> please don't pressure me into doing this sort of complicated computational class proof when I'm not fully awake :-)
16:32:46 <wib_jonas> what is this unholy abomination https://raw.githubusercontent.com/raoofha/Ar/main/Ar2.py ? do you really have a string-eval with some string created in some complicated way with zero comments or documentation, and then expect me to tell how it behaves or even if it's total?
16:33:13 <ais523> here's a simple example of the sort of thing that's very hard to implement in a computable total language: "given an even integer n>4, return a prime number p such that n-p is also a prime number"
16:33:38 <ais523> this is total if and only if the Goldbach conjecture is true – thus, any proof that it was total would have to prove the Goldbach conjecture
16:34:10 <ais523> this general technique can be generalised to a wide range of possible conjectures, eventually you reach one which is impossible to prove in the proof system you're using
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16:35:59 <wib_jonas> Raoof: please write proper documentation of some sort to explain how you're supposed to use this, what kind of arguments it expects and what it does, because I'm not going to try to disentangle what the source code is trying to do.
16:36:19 <ais523> OK, I found the diagonalisation: say you are using a proof system P to prove the language total, the total function you want to implement is "given a claimed demonstration that P is inconsistent, report the first fallacy in it"
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16:36:52 <ais523> if P is consistent then this function is total – but proving it total would prove P consistent, and a consistent proof system cannot prove itself to be consistent (this is one of Gödel's theorems)
16:38:56 <wib_jonas> (and ideally write it without string-eval)
16:40:39 <ais523> incidentally, this sort of argument doesn't rule out the possibility that there may be a computable language that happens to be total, can compute all total computable functions, but you can't prove that it's total
16:41:03 <int-e> AFAICS that particular thing can't even do primitive recursion.
16:42:57 <Raoof> ais523 isn't the program itself the proof that it is total ?
16:43:59 <ais523> Raoof: my point is that because you have proved the program total, it can't possibly implement all total functions – if it could, you wouldn't have been able to prove it
16:46:04 <wib_jonas> as far as I can see, this u function is trying to enumerate nested expressions in some fixed order, and then select one depending on its fixed argument, but then later in your example functions and tests you never try to use that functionality, so it's assumed untested and broken by default. I don't see why I should waste my time with this
16:46:05 <Raoof> wib_jonas I didn't think anybody wants to read that I add some documentation later
16:46:19 <ais523> an example of a function you can't implement in it is "given an Agda program, return 0 if the program does not prove False, otherwise return the line number of the first error in the program"
16:46:31 <ais523> (this works because Agda is powerful enough to prove that your program is total)
16:46:59 <ais523> (and the function itself is total if Agda is consistent)
16:48:40 <wib_jonas> sorry, I shouldn't discourage you, please do experiment with trying to enumerate nested expressions or whatnot, but if you want other people to read it you'd better make it more understandable
16:54:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134209&oldid=134183 * TheCanon2 * (+679) Added a section for algorithms
16:54:28 <Raoof> ais523 I see that as a challenge because I don't understand why you think a total and turing complete language is not possible so challenge accepted
16:55:04 <ais523> because this was already proved ages ago, it's a standard result in computability theory
16:55:17 <ais523> there are lots of total functions that can be proved total, but (for any given proof language) some that can't be
16:55:49 <ais523> assuming that the proof language is consistent, i.e. doesn't prove false statements – one that can prove false statements can prove all total functions total, but it is likely to prove some non-total functions total too
16:56:32 <ais523> (I should clarify – inconsistent languages prove false statements, but some consistent languages prove false statements too)
16:56:52 <ais523> let's say "consistent and correct"
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16:57:37 <ais523> but, the reason you can't do it is that even if diagonal arguments don't work directly against the language you are implementing, they will still work against the proof language you use to prove the language total
16:58:32 <Raoof> ais523 how do you prove the proof language to be total ?
16:59:49 <ais523> you need to use a different proof language – if you keep going back through languages like that, eventually you reach a point where you can't
17:00:23 <ais523> this is a well-known issue with the foundations of mathematics, it's known that there is eventually a point where you can't put mathematics on a sound mathematical basis any more
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17:01:35 <ais523> btw, if you get to use uncomputable functions, it is much easier to show that no language can compute all total functions
17:01:55 <ais523> e.g. the busy beaver function is uncomputable and obviously total, but because it's uncomputable you can't implement it in any programming langauge at all
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17:02:53 <ais523> the value of BB(5) was only calculated pretty recently – and it's quite possible that the value of BB(6) will never be known
17:04:00 <Raoof> ais523 why not think of Ar as a proof language ? you have to start somewhere
17:04:18 <ais523> Raoof: because the thing you are trying to accomplish is known to be impossible
17:04:39 <ais523> if you try to write, say, the busy beaver function in Ar or Ar2, you will probably not even figure out how to start
17:04:53 <ais523> it's just a totally different level of abstraction
17:05:23 <Raoof> ais523 can you write busy beaver in agda or peano arithmetic ?
17:05:43 <ais523> you can't even write it in C or Python or lambda calculus
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17:07:06 <Raoof> I don't get your point then I'm claiming that there is a total language that can compute all total computable function and does not solve the halting problem
17:07:26 <ais523> oh, you need a different example if you want to compute all total computable functions
17:07:41 <ais523> such as the function that typechecks agda programs and enters an infinite loop if they prove false without containing type errors
17:08:32 <ais523> that one *should* be total if agda is consistent, because the situation that enters an infinite loop would require an inconsistency
17:08:35 <ais523> and it's clearly computable
17:08:40 <ais523> but how do you prove it?
17:09:41 <ais523> the point is that there are some total computable functions that can't be proven to be total – but if you can't prove them to be total, you can't implement them in your total language, because that *would* prove them to be total
17:12:26 <Raoof> how can a function that enters an infinite loop be total ?
17:13:14 <ais523> because the situation where it enters the infinte loop cannot occur
17:15:17 <ais523> the problem basically reduces to dead code analysis: "given this program, prove that this particular line of the program never runs"
17:15:25 <ais523> and in general you can't do that, even if it does in fact never run
17:17:45 <Raoof> but that is a non-computable function
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17:18:43 <ais523> well, you can have computable functions that work similarly
17:18:53 <ais523> you're confusing two levels, I think
17:19:18 <ais523> I have function A(x) that does "if x has a particular property, return 0, otherwise enter an infinite loop", and function B that checks whether or not A is total
17:19:31 <ais523> function A can be trivially computable, if the property can be checked by brute force
17:19:40 <ais523> function B is usually uncomputable
17:20:13 <ais523> now, your language implementation is function B, but it's computable, which means there are some function As it can't handle
17:21:02 <ais523> because the property in question could be anything that's checkable by brute force
17:27:42 <Raoof> let me ask you a different question what is the set of functions that are computable using Ar3 meaning a single function that accept a composition number of hyperoperation,sub and div and a list of their argument and return the value of the composition u(f,...) := f(...)
17:29:45 <korvo> Raoof: Let's back up for a moment. Do you see how your Ar approach is similar to Kleene's definition of primitive recursion?
17:29:54 <Raoof> let me add that u() == 0 and u(x) == x+1 so you can define all integer using u alone
17:31:11 <korvo> We can answer your question by adding higher-order functions to primitive recursion. This lets us talk about functions that take not just one number, but many numbers as an argument, like your Ar2.
17:32:27 <korvo> Sadly, the literature on this sort of construction is not great. The magic search phrase is "primitive recursive functional".
17:35:18 <korvo> Anyway, yes, it's known that we can do "double recursion" with functionals; it's just a matter of taking two inputs instead of one. This lets us implement Ackermann's function.
17:35:18 <ais523> Raoof: I have a specific function that is probably total, but I don't think you can implement in Ar2: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/62.txt
17:35:20 <int-e> it shouldn't be too hard to show that all the u (of each arity) are primitive recursive, or u itself if you pick an encoding Z^* -> Z
17:35:49 <korvo> (Also I'm going to say "PRF" for these functionals and consider them on N* → N instead of Z* → Z for simplicity.)
17:36:00 <ais523> part of the problem is that this hasn't been proven to be total yet, although it's widely believed to be – implementing it in a total language would require completing the proof
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17:37:14 <korvo> Heh. ais523's example is of a class of "anamorphisms" or "apomorphisms", which are operations that "unfold" or "build" indefinitely-large structures. Anamorphisms *cannot* be given by PRFs; you need a workaround, like bounding them with a maximum height/depth.
17:37:42 <korvo> Raoof: Okay, let's take a breath. How does all of this sound so far?
17:38:52 <ais523> korvo: the funny thing is, we don't know for certain that that *isn't* primitive recursive – there might well be a primitive recursive bound on the result, we just don't know what it is
17:40:24 <Raoof> korvo all I know about primitive recursive functions is that they don't have a universal function and ack is not primitive recursive, and I guess higher order functions introduce non-termination
17:40:44 <korvo> ais523: For sure! The curious fun of PRFs is that we can't even *express* an unbounded anamorphism, so we can't even express the search for a counterexample.
17:41:27 <ais523> actually, this conversation has got me thinking a lot about function equivalence – we have a function written in form X, and don't know whether it can be expressed some other way in computational class Y – writing it in form X clearly doesn't help, but maybe there's an alternative way to write it that maps the same inputs to the same outputs
17:41:58 <korvo> Raoof: No worries. So, I'll tell you that all PRFs terminate, which makes them interesting for programming. Indeed they don't have universality or Turing-completeness; you can express a *single step* of a machine, but not an *infinite loop* of steps.
17:42:40 <korvo> I'll also give the punchline: the PRFs are precisely the arrows in a Cartesian-closed category with a natural-numbers object. This is an arcane definition, but it leads directly to a nice point-free language: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy
17:43:10 <ais523> e.g. "if (Agda is inconsistent) { enter infinite loop; } else { return 0; }", if it happens to be total, is trivial to implement (just implement "return 0;") – but proving the equivalence is hard
17:43:39 <korvo> Raoof: There's nothing wrong with your approach, but I think you should look at how Kleene did it. He used the same idea that you had: the first number can *choose* which operation to apply, like an index or code.
17:44:17 <korvo> Maybe you can take some inspiration or proofs from his work.
17:45:15 <korvo> ais523: Yes. We can't prove the equivalence of PRFs in general, say PRFs with signatures like N → 2 (Cantor space) or N → N (Baire space), which were Kleene's Type I and Type II respectively. But for simpler signatures it can often be done.
17:46:03 <korvo> e.g. there's only one function with signature X × Y → X up to unique isomorphism, and it's easy to encode the search as a unification.
17:46:56 <ais523> oh, I see, examples like the Goldbach Conjecture can be expressed as a PRF equivalence problem
17:46:57 <Raoof> korvo thanks I sure do
17:47:43 <korvo> ais523: Bingo. Jaw-dropping, right? It's like realizing that Gödel sentences are undetectable because they're all equivalent to fairly vacuous truthhoods.
17:47:45 <ais523> because "is number X a counterexample?" can be checked by a PRF
17:48:22 <ais523> now I'm wondering how low computational class can become before equivalence becomes decidable
17:48:40 <ais523> FSAs have decidable equivalence, for example
17:49:17 <korvo> I want to say it's an open question, but it can't be *that* open. CFGs have undecidable equivalence.
17:49:43 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134210&oldid=132289 * TheCanon2 * (+11) /* See also */ H
17:49:48 <korvo> (Because CFGs can encode Turing-machine traces as productions, kind of like Post correspondence machines.)
17:51:19 <ais523> yep – CFG equivalence is one of my favourite Turing-complete (i.e. semi-decidable) problems
17:51:48 <ais523> but, I don't think that necessarily implies that DPDA equivalence is undecidable; does it immediately imply that NPDA equivalence is undecidable?
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17:53:41 <ais523> actually my favourite related problem is CFG intersection, rather than CFG equivalence
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17:58:58 <korvo> I'm not sure about PDAs. I only know the CFG stuff offhand from writing so many parsers.
17:59:55 <korvo> Raoof: Sorry, I just realized we didn't quite get to your second question. Do you want more intuition for totality vs computability? I know it's a hard topic.
18:02:10 <Raoof> korvo I meant to say of course I need more intution
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18:04:15 <korvo> Raoof: The usual thing we imagine, following Turing, is what ought to happen if we use a Turing-complete machine to emulate some other machine. Any state that we can reach inside the emulator is also a state that we can reach in our outer machine.
18:05:03 <korvo> This is part of what makes Turing's proof work: we can build a funky program that doesn't do what we want when emulated by relating the funky program's inner states to the outer states. And then what happens if the funky program is an emulator?
18:05:52 <korvo> The program doesn't reference itself. The outer program references the inner program. But the inner and outer programs are two copies of the same program.
18:06:47 <korvo> Or, paraphrasing Lawvere, the problem isn't that you have a fancy program x. The problem is that it's legal to write f(x) = x(x) which applies x to itself.
18:14:35 <ais523> on an unrelated topic, I feel like I should report a combinator-related discovery I made recently
18:15:02 <ais523> BCKW combinator calculus is Turing-complete: its combinators are (in Haskell notation) flip, (.), const, and \f \x -> f x x
18:15:13 <ais523> but I have been experimenting with replacing flip by (flip id)
18:15:42 <Raoof> korvo I didn't get your point about totality vs computability
18:16:11 <ais523> it turns out that this not only makes it possible to replace flip, but also makes it possible to replace const – you implement const recursively as \a b c -> const (a c) b
18:16:25 <ais523> and the remaining combinators have enough power to both construct that expression, and do the recursion
18:17:00 <ais523> so, you end up with (flip id), (.), and \f \x -> f x x as your three combinators
18:17:15 <ais523> this probably doesn't have any or many advantages over SK combinator calculus but I thought it was interesting
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18:18:09 <korvo> ais523: That's...actually a really big deal IMO. Congratulations. What do we call (flip id)? Is it a bird?
18:18:09 <ais523> err, I mean \f x -> f x x, sorry for the notational errors
18:18:52 <ais523> korvo: I have been calling it V, initially for "inverse" or "reverse"
18:18:54 <korvo> Raoof: Well, you wanted to know why a total Turing-complete language is impossible. It's because there's a tension between totality and computability; a computer wants to be able to run forever but a total program must halt.
18:19:04 <ais523> it is \x y -> y x which is an intuitively simple combinator
18:20:17 * korvo fetches their Smullyan
18:20:51 <ais523> with (.) named A and (flip id) named V, then flip is ((A (V ((A A) V))) ((A A) V)) and id is ((A (V V)) ((A A) V))
18:21:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134211&oldid=134209 * TheCanon2 * (+427) Added OR
18:21:40 <korvo> ais523: Smullyan calls it "Thrush", T for short, Txy = yx, in my copy of Mockingbird. I think that's the right one even with his conventions?
18:22:10 <ais523> korvo: I was considering trying to find a copy of To Mock a Mockingbird just to see if it had been named alreayd
18:22:18 <ais523> I've never actually read the book, although of course I know of it
18:23:02 <esolangs> [[MIRROR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134212&oldid=133994 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+32)
18:23:06 <b_jonas> if I read this correctly then this u function grows single exponentially, but not faster than that, but the code is written in a way that's hard to understand so it might be doing something completely different from what I expect, and also it's only exponential in the first argument of u and you never call u with anything but a very small first argument in the examples so it might not even work at all
18:23:12 <b_jonas> (also the implementation is very slow).
18:23:50 <b_jonas> ais523: I have a translation of Smullyan's To Mock a Mockingbird on my shelf, what did you want to know?
18:24:34 <esolangs> [[MIRROR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134213&oldid=134212 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3) /* Compiler */
18:24:41 <korvo> ais523: You might find it interesting reading. They build up bindings from scratch. One tough part for me was that the calling convention is backwards from what I'm used to, so a lot of equations are reversed.
18:25:11 <korvo> He does that so that the SKI notation works correctly; it's not just for play.
18:25:21 <ais523> b_jonas: so I have been looking into abstraction elimination using combinators, and there are nine (but actually seven) basic combinators that you would want to use (all of which can be made inefficiently using S, K, and I)
18:25:40 <ais523> the two degenerate cases are \x.(A B) and \x.(A x), where x is not free in A or B
18:25:56 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a list of most of the named birds at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bird_sociology#Non-primitives
18:26:07 <ais523> ah, this will probably do
18:26:33 <ais523> although the notation is going to be a pain to read because I am used to lambda-calculus definitions of combinators
18:26:52 <b_jonas> let me see who put that list there
18:27:06 <lambdabot> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> (b -> c) -> a1 -> a2 -> c
18:27:27 <ais523> that one seems to come up often enough that I was wondering if it had a name, too
18:27:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion1 added the list
18:27:45 <ais523> it seems to map the result of a 2-argument function
18:28:50 <ais523> anyway, S seems to me to be a little flawed as a combinator, because unlike most other combinators it has more than one plausible evaluation order (and in fact it conceptually feels like it does two evaluations in parallel)
18:31:03 <ais523> it is also interesting how non-primitive flip seems – (flip id) feels like more of a sensible primitive; it has quite a bit of trouble implementing flip (although it can, with the help of (.)), but then so does SK combinator calculus
18:31:22 <b_jonas> ais523: the table in the back of Mockingbird does define the named birds in a haskel-style way, as in "Bxyz = x(yz)" and "Exyzwv = zy(zwv)" and "Jxyzw = xy(xwz)", which is close to lambda calculus
18:31:38 <b_jonas> but of course it's possible that some birds are mentioned in the main text but not in that table
18:32:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134214&oldid=134211 * TheCanon2 * (+885) added two inequalities
18:33:00 <b_jonas> but also that table gives fewer names than the one on the wiki
18:33:16 <ais523> anyway, the other big realisation I had was that you can implement a stack-like object with elements a0 (top), a1, a2, etc. as \f.f(a0)(a1)(a2) in untyped lambda calculus, and then almost all the operations of Underload can be implemented very easily on this kind of stack
18:33:24 <b_jonas> which is strange because the wiki specifically says these are the named birds from the book
18:33:35 <Raoof> b_jonas as I wrote earlier u is defined as u(f,...) := f(...) and u() := 0 and u(x) := x+1 where f is the composition id of mul/hyerpoperation,sub and total div . I defined u such that you you can define a function using only u for example g(x) := u(u(),x) . now the question is what is the set of functions computable using only u ?
18:34:55 <ais523> but you need to write it in continuation-passing-style to make it work
18:35:27 <ais523> e.g. if you have a "stack action" f, you apply it to a stack as call/cc \c.((f c) stack)
18:37:20 <ais523> then, Underload's ~ is flip, ^ is (flip id), : is the W combinator, (x) is (flip id x), ! is const, I think – there are several layers of abstraction so it is hard to reason about
18:37:25 <ais523> a and * don't implement as neatly, though
18:37:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134215&oldid=134214 * TheCanon2 * (+1) /* X == Y */ typo
18:37:53 <ais523> it is possible I have some of these wrong because I tried to calculate it entirely in my head, but I suspect it's correctable to produce a small functional implementation of Underload-without-S
18:38:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134216&oldid=134215 * TheCanon2 * (+1) /* X != Y */ capitalisation
18:38:58 <b_jonas> Raoof: wait, I don't understand, you're asking about something called Ar3, but https://github.com/raoofha/Ar/tree/main only has an Ar2.py that defines a function u, so what is Ar3?
18:39:53 <Raoof> b_jonas Ar3 is just Ar2 where mul function replaced by hyperoperation function as one of the basis
18:45:37 <b_jonas> Raoof: what does "hyperoperation" mean there?
18:46:30 <Raoof> b_jonas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoperation
18:46:43 <int-e> tetration I'd think
18:46:50 <korvo> It's the standard tower: addition, multiplication, exponentiation, tetration, pentation, etc.
18:49:57 <b_jonas> Raoof: ok, but that's not really enough of a definition, as that's a three-argument function, while your u calls two-argument functions in a way that has odd restrictions (basically one read-write register and any number of read-only registers)
18:51:30 <korvo> Oh, that's a really good point. Like, tetration would require one more RW register, either to hold an intermediate sum or a secondary counter.
18:53:02 <Raoof> I don't get your points, are you saying that u(f,...) := f(...) is not computable or I poorly described it ?
18:53:39 <int-e> you haven't said how exactly your scheme extends to a three-argument function
18:56:05 <b_jonas> Raoof: if I understand your implementation of u right then it is a computable total function on any number of integers, and it does at least grow exponentially so if you compose a bunch of it you might get some interesting behavior, or you might not, I can't tell. however, since u doesn't grow faster than exponential, int-e is right that you can't compute every primitive recursive function as a finite
18:56:13 <int-e> Anyway, whatever this is it's not more powerful than primitive recursion with the Ackermann function thrown in as a base function. So not TC, but potentially close enough for all practical purposes. That's totally unclear because you have to build meaningful expressions somehow to simulate control flow.
18:56:53 <int-e> b_jonas: that was before we threw in a relatively fast growing base function
18:57:16 <korvo> Raoof: The reasonable objections from b_jonas and int-e are why I recommend following Kleene. Your approach can work for representing PRFs, if you're careful about the details.
18:57:34 <b_jonas> if you throw in a fast-growing base function then it gets complicated enough that I won't be able to analyze what you can get from a finite composition
18:58:15 <korvo> But yeah, those who don't assume the Parameter Theorem (the Smn Theorem) are doomed to reimplement it. You might notice I skipped over all of this in Cammy, because I don't have the patience for it.
18:59:55 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134217&oldid=133918 * Gggfr * (-54)
19:00:05 <Raoof> int-e when you call the python function u you have access to the number of it's arguments so u define an infinite set of function u(), u(x), u(f,x), u(f,x,y), u(f,x,y,z) , ... for each number of arguments you define a list of variables x(0), x(1), x(2), ... and you copy the list into a list of expression and you define a three nested loop for each
19:00:06 <Raoof> argument of hyperoperation
19:01:19 <Raoof> b_jonas it is relatively simple when your mind is free but if you have to sleep or have a lot in your minds like it gets complicated
19:01:21 <korvo> Sure. That's using Python's implementation of Parameters. It turns out that PRFs have the responsibility of doing it themselves.
19:01:53 <int-e> Raoof: u/n is notation for an n-ary function from Prolog, so I did model the variadic part
19:02:43 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134218&oldid=134217 * Gggfr * (-62)
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19:12:07 <esolangs> [[$]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134220&oldid=134219 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-4)
19:14:09 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134221&oldid=134218 * Gggfr * (+173) /* how it works */
19:16:57 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134222&oldid=134221 * Gggfr * (-4)
19:17:25 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134223&oldid=134222 * Gggfr * (+22)
19:24:00 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134224&oldid=134223 * Gggfr * (+43) /* examples */
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21:02:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134226&oldid=134216 * TheCanon2 * (+0) typo
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21:17:32 <fizzie> Today's pick from the charts: someone must've shared a link to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering on the fediverse, because (mostly within a 5-minute interval) 1683 different Mastodon instances fetched that same page.
21:18:16 <korvo> fizzie: I think it's because it was posted to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41101068 Several aggregators would have scraped it from there.
21:26:18 <fizzie> Page popularity over time, in what I think are requests/second: https://zem.fi/tmp/lambda.png (mostly programs rather than people).
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21:33:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: I was actually thinking of Lambda: the Gathering. IIUC this u function from Raoof's code is designed to have compose its built-in functions in a way where it has just one writable register, and you have to apply one of its four builtin functions to that one register in place either from the left or right or both, and if it's from the left or right then the other argument is one of the extra
21:33:18 <b_jonas> arguments of the u function. LTG has a similarly annoying restriction on how you compose functions.
21:33:44 <ais523> b_jonas: that reminds me of how BuzzFizz requires a constant on one side or the other of the \ operator, you can't use two variables
21:33:49 <ais523> (which is an intentional restriction to stop it being TC)
21:34:53 <b_jonas> ais523: Raoof's function can use the *same* argument, as in the one writable register, on both sides of a built-in operation, and one of those builtins is multiply, which is the only reason why it grows exponentially.
21:37:08 <korvo> fizzie: I did a little more digging. The top HN bot on Mastodon, @HackerNewsBot@m.einverne.info, did *not* reshare that link. It only publishes hot discussions and highly-upvoted links.
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21:53:04 <b_jonas> "1683 different Mastodon instances fetched that same page." => ah, clients that automatically preview links, so great, especially when the previewer has vulnerabilities
22:03:56 <fizzie> "Within option names, dash (-) and underscore (_) may be used interchangeably in most cases, [..]. For example, `--skip-grant-tables` and `--skip_grant_tables` are equivalent. [..] except where underscores are significant. This is the case with, for example, `--log-bin` and `--log_bin`, which are different options."
22:04:02 <fizzie> Thanks, MySQL, that's not confusing at all.
22:09:07 <ais523> isn't it fairly well established that mysql is a disaster? :-D
22:09:10 <b_jonas> I have heard of programs where minus and underscore are interchangable in long option names, ffmpeg does that, but I haven't heard of one where there are exceptions
22:12:44 <fizzie> Technically this is MariaDB (though that quote was from the MySQL manual), but I think they've had to inherit a lot of the disaster for compatibility reasons.
22:13:34 <b_jonas> there are programs that take long options and let you abbreviate them by an arbitrary unambiguous prefix, which is a rather bad idea because it breaks existing scripts when they add more options to the program
22:13:47 <b_jonas> gnu coreutils does that in particular
22:15:25 <ais523> Rust sometimes has - and _ as interchangeable in package names, sometimes it doesn't, depending on context
22:15:36 <ais523> I think they should probably have banned - in all contexts to avoid the confusion
22:20:46 <b_jonas> ais523: both perl and python can both give you very confusing errors if you store a module on a case-insensitive file system and import it using the wrong case
22:21:25 <b_jonas> so that's also one of those things where the case difference sometimes matters and sometimes doesn't
22:24:15 <ais523> part of the problem is that case-insensitivity only really makes sense relative to a given language, which means that case-sensitivity normally makes more sense for programming languages that might have to deal with identifiers in a range of natural languages
22:24:38 <ais523> but case-insensitive file systems can mess that up in cases where the filename is important, especially if the program and filesystem are written in different natural languages
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22:26:26 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, is that still a thing? I know that on DOS a filename can be valid or not depending on what codepage you loaded using MODE, and that affects casefolding too, but I'm hoping that on windows the file system itself determines what casefolding rules to use for filenames on it, it won't depend on random OS settings like the encoding
22:27:04 <b_jonas> of course that can cause problems if you copy the source code elsewhere
22:27:09 <ais523> b_jonas: I would expect that at least in Turkey, Windows would use Turkic casefolding for its case-insensitive file systems
22:27:33 <b_jonas> IIRC the Java compiler cares or used to use the charset of your current locale when compiling to know what encoding the source code is written in
22:28:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, and the names of certain user groups as well as the names of some directories depend on what language you chose when you installed windows
22:30:20 <salpynx> not sure I understand the Ar claims about TCness from inc sub mul div. It looks like that is from the Z3 page which makes similar claims, and apparently I already doubted this 5 years ago based on my comment on the Z3 article discussion page
22:31:18 <ais523> it isn't that rare for people to make false claims of TCness on the wiki
22:31:40 <ais523> although, it also isn't that rare for people to doubt correct TCness proofs
22:31:51 <salpynx> .. my 2019 comment doesn't really make anything clearer to me either. I think I'm just expressing doubt then also, rather than clarifying anything.
22:32:33 <b_jonas> that reminds me of https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-07-18.html#lkb
22:34:40 <ais523> b_jonas: I selected .... as the file extension for Incident fully in the knowledge that it would probably break something
22:34:44 <ais523> but I didn't expect it to be this recent
22:34:59 * ais523 is tempted to make a language whose file extension is a period followed by a newline
22:36:48 <ais523> files are traditionally supposed to end with newlines, right? :-)
22:36:52 <b_jonas> .pl extension having three common meanings is the one that I find annoying. I even gave .pm as the extension of a few of my perl scripts just to avoid it.
22:37:04 <ais523> b_jonas: Perl, Prolog, and?
22:37:32 <ais523> I often use .pro for Prolog due to this clash (and writing more Perl than Prolog, although I write both), although that also runs into collisions
22:38:10 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134227&oldid=134102 * RainbowDash * (+83)
22:38:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134228&oldid=61228 * Salpynx * (+293) /* instruction set with load, store, increment, zero and unconditional branching */
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22:45:01 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134229&oldid=134227 * RainbowDash * (+15)
22:45:10 <salpynx> From the linked Raul Rojas paper on Z3: "The Z3 is therefore no universal computer in the sense of Turing". p.5
22:50:57 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134230 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+971) Created page with "~~~~ made it ==commands== q: tape head := random(0,9) //also different from the current cell {: if tape head < 1 skip to matching "}" }: tape head decrement; if non-negative skip to matching "{" r: move tape
22:51:18 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134231&oldid=134230 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-183)
22:51:34 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134232&oldid=134231 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-3) /* Actual Random Number */
22:52:08 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134233&oldid=134232 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) /* programs */
22:52:21 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134234&oldid=134233 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Random number generator */
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23:13:43 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134235&oldid=134234 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+147)
23:14:31 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134236&oldid=134235 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+38) /* polyglot */
23:15:24 <esolangs> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134237&oldid=96084 * Salpynx * (+170) attempt to clarify the conditions under which Z3 can be made TC, and link to relevant papers
23:20:02 <salpynx> I've linked to the relevant papers and have a better idea of what Z3 is about now. Not 100% satisfied with my cite style, but I don't think this wiki has a standard?
23:21:18 <salpynx> Raoof: re. Ar, I think your statement "did you know that you don't need loop or recursion to program ?! you only need these four functions" is incorrect, and may have been based on incorrect or misleading info from that Z3 article
23:26:11 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134238&oldid=134236 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+30) /* polyglot */
23:27:22 <esolangs> [[Neoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134239&oldid=134229 * RainbowDash * (+106) Points added
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23:33:55 <salpynx> hi Raoof, not sure if you saw the logs of my msg above about Ar?
23:35:10 <Raoof> salpynx hi, do you also doubt that Blindfolded arithmetic is not TC ? I'm looking for a way to workaround diagonalization and div,sub,mul,inc is a good candidate because as programs length goes to infinity Ar becomes TC and even super-TC
23:35:12 <zzo38> Using the same file name extensions for multiple purposes is not so uncommon anyways though.
23:38:28 <salpynx> Without having read much on Blindfolded Arithmetic, I think that's safely TC, mainly because it says "you can use arbitrary control flow"
23:38:40 <b_jonas> sorry what? Blindfolded arithmetic is definitely turing-complete if you have enough registers. enough is like two or three, but four or five is easy enough to prove.
23:39:03 <b_jonas> salpynx: no, Blindfolded arithmetic specifically cannot use arbitrary control flow
23:39:14 <b_jonas> its main restriction is the no control flow
23:40:26 <korvo> Raoof: You can't get around diagonalization. Consider: For a small number n, 2 ** n is much bigger than n; there's no way to count to 2 ** n using only n items.
23:41:03 <korvo> Diagonalization merely says that making n infinite isn't a solution; 2 ** n is still bigger than n even if n is an unlimited number of items.
23:42:43 <salpynx> oh, ok, I was reading the converting a state machine with arbitrary control flow part of the article... but that can be translated into control flow equivalents by placing code in an outer loop
23:43:40 <salpynx> which is what the Z3 TC conversion uses, and presumably what infinite length code simulates, which sounds like what Raoof wants to do with Ar?
23:45:34 <salpynx> I haven't thought much about infinite program length, but it seems pretty trivially equivalent to a potential loop. If you don;t want to just call it a loop, i'd be thinking of infinite non-repeating programs, which become hard to specify
23:50:43 <salpynx> maybe it's a terminology problem, but conditionally doing or not doing things in a single loop based on some state value is a way to "simulate" or do control flow, right?
23:51:11 <Raoof> korvo do you this that there is a simple algorithm that computes 2**n for a practically finite number using only Ar or Ar2
23:53:25 <korvo> Raoof: Probably, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Cantor's theorem holds in the finite case, not just the infinite case.
23:54:08 <Raoof> salpynx I have a hunch against conventional wisdom that there is a single universal function that you can use to compute all other total computable functions Ar, Ar2 and Ar3 and I have an idea for Ar4 are an attempt to make my hunch a reality
23:54:40 <korvo> Raoof: Like, diagonalization is usually done with an infinite table, right? Each row is a string of bits and we're assuming that there are infinitely many rows.
23:55:34 <salpynx> What is the main difference between Blindfold Arithmetic and Ar? I accept BA is TC (while not being sure of the exact details- the loop and access to registers, however simulated, is enouhg for me to believe it)
23:55:57 <korvo> We can type-theoretically describe that table as a function from N to N → 2; it's a function from natural numbers to strings of bits. (We're saying a string of bits is a function from nats to bits.)
23:56:39 <korvo> And then Cantor's theorem is that there isn't a surjection from N to N → 2. A surjection is a function which covers every possible output; here, it would be a function that has a natural number for every possible string of bits.
23:57:33 <salpynx> also, I think a Total language cannot be TC, basically by definition. I think there's a terminology overlap with 'total' though, applying to functions vs. languages?
23:58:37 <korvo> Now, pretend that the table is finite and square. Like, suppose it's a table with four rows. Then we're talking about surjections from 4 to 4 → 2. But by type arithmetic, 4 → 2 has 2 ** 4 elements, which is more than 4. And if X has fewer elements than Y then there aren't any surjections X → Y.
23:59:21 <korvo> Raoof: So, let's start at the beginning again: *why* do you want to work around diagonalization?
23:59:23 <int-e> salpynx: Well a priori it's conceivable that any partial recursive function has a corresponding total recursive function that encodes non-termination by an extra value.
00:00:08 <int-e> salpynx: And that would potentially allow total languages to be TC. Of course we know that this doesn't actually work, but it requires some theory.
00:00:23 <int-e> Not just definitions.
00:00:40 <korvo> int-e: Indeed, without any further constraints, Set + 1 ≈ Pfn. This is because Pfn is defined over *all* partial functions, not just some computable universe.
00:01:29 <Raoof> korvo the main reason is that I'm bored and as I said I have a hunch that it is possible not in the finite case but in the infinite case
00:02:02 <korvo> Raoof: Understandable. I'm afraid your hunch is wrong but it certainly is for an interesting reason.
00:02:35 <Raoof> salpynx you can think of Ar as unrolled BA
00:03:07 <korvo> Like, if nothing else, I think http://tac.mta.ca/tac/reprints/articles/15/tr15.pdf is quite interesting. If you have a category-theory allergy, https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0305282 is delightful and has many more examples.
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00:05:46 <salpynx> Raoof: well, if you are simulating BA's main loop with an infinite repetition of the code, and all other operations and abilities are equal, I'd consider that equivalent, and therefore TC (based on trust of BA)
00:06:12 <Raoof> korvo I've looked at those links before they all comes down to d(n) = 1+u(n,n) and that is just not a problem in Ar or Ar2 or Ar3
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00:08:35 <korvo> Raoof: That's not the issue; the issue is the transformations without fixed points. For example, Ar2 features negation, and negation has no fixed point.
00:09:15 <korvo> Like, looking again at n and 2 ** n, the problem is not n at all! The problem is 2, and specifically the transformation 2 → 2 which has no fixed point because it sends true to false and vice versa.
00:09:23 <salpynx> int-e: I guess "basically" was doing some extra work in my "by definition" claim :) The proofs and wisdom we have make Total and TC languages safely mutually exclusive, I can't imagine someone finding some example that is both.
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00:17:16 <Raoof> korvo I didn't get what you mean and maybe you didn't get what I mean
00:18:47 <salpynx> i;m not following some of the function and diagolisation arguments, I'm just trying to get TC claims straight
00:20:27 <Raoof> salpynx it's just a claim I don't have any proof [yet]
00:23:41 <Raoof> korvo can you explain your understanding of diagoanlization and fixed point a little more ? maybe it will resolve my confusion
00:29:16 <b_jonas> Raoof: the diagonalization argument is similar to last time near https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-02.html#lRc , it's just more complicated here because you are composing functions with an unlimited number of arguments
00:30:46 <Raoof> salpynx my goal with Ar and Ar2 and ... is to use it as a practical language and a total model of computation so if I can show that you can program very easily using it then I can confidently say it is TC
00:32:58 <korvo> Raoof: I'm basically with Lawvere. In a Cartesian-closed category (a simply-typed lambda calculus), we can write a combinator that looks like (lambda (f x) (f x x)).
00:33:08 <Raoof> b_jonas you weren't convinced then that diagonalization does not work for Ar ? Ar is just unrolled BC
00:38:30 <salpynx> As I understand things, Ar is either total or TC, it can't be both (maybe I need proofs here). If it is TC, it's not because of inc, sub, mul, div, rather it's the ability to simulate a loop with infintely repeated code (which I don't see in the spec but if it is part of the construction it should work), and having enough locations to store and manipulate data to make decisions.
00:38:43 <salpynx> 'unbounded program length' is a pretty big advantage, and I think that uncontroversially gives you a loop equivalent, which could make something otherwise not TC, TC (this is literally the Z3 glue-the-program-tape-together trick). I don't think that's too controversial, if we're allowing that sort of thing.
00:40:13 <Raoof> korvo I'm with https://kar.kent.ac.uk/88974/1/turner.pdf_nocoversheet : "A non-recursive function is logically possible—because Church’s Thesis might be false
00:40:29 <salpynx> I'm inclined to believe that if Ar really is unrolled BC, then it's TC, but that's not a controversial result at all.
00:42:11 <korvo> Raoof: Lawvere's setup is constructive. Choose the category and an object O which will play the role of 2, and we can look at the arrows O → O to see whether all of them have no fixed points.
00:42:59 <korvo> Yes, there *might* be ways which go around it, but you
00:43:06 <korvo> *you're using Z, which obeys these rules.
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00:47:16 <Guest15> i want to change my username on the wiki, is there anyway to do so?
00:47:40 <Guest15> if this is not the correct place.person to ask anyone know the correct palce/person?
00:48:14 <esolangs> [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134240&oldid=124660 * TheCanon2 * (+91) /* External resources */ All of Mazonka's links are dead
00:49:11 <Raoof> korvo I'm not super familiar with category theory, can you explain diagonalization like I'm five :D ?
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00:51:18 <Raoof> salpynx people will argue that because all Ar programs are bounded by a polynomial function no Ar program can compute 2**n or ack function
00:53:34 <salpynx> Raoof: BA has 6 registers, does Ar have registers or equivalent data storage?
00:55:10 <Raoof> korvo of course I can learn category theory and read the papers with a lot more attention myself but I want to read your explanation
00:56:29 <Raoof> salpynx you can think of function arguments as input registers and functions values as output registers
00:56:38 <korvo> Raoof: The second paper I linked, Yanofsky 2005, avoids category theory and explains it using sets. If you're already doubting Cantor's theorem, though, then that's not going to help.
00:58:00 <korvo> The thing is that, right now, you don't have *evidence* against these classic theorems, just a hunch. And so Newton's flaming laser sword, or even Hitch's razor, says that your position is bogus.
00:58:39 <korvo> So I could explain all day and night using every metaphor I've ever heard, and it still might not help you.
01:07:10 <Raoof> korvo I think theorem 2 of the second paper is true but that does not contradict my claim that there is a total and turing complete language
01:07:53 <salpynx> Raoof: in Ar2.py I think you're missing a i(a, b) def
01:10:24 <Sgeo> Is there a changelog for uxn?
01:11:05 <salpynx> yeah, I'm willing to believe that maybe Ar is TC with some infinite program trick, but then it's not going to be Total, so I also doubt your overall claim. I see it as either TC or not, and either way no existing theorems or proofs are shattered.
01:15:33 <korvo> Raoof: I agree. So, let's focus on that claim, because it does fall between the cracks, definitionally, and it doesn't appear related to diagonalization. So, first, what *is* a total language or a TC language? I could guess, but I can't think of any guesses which satisfy both.
01:15:59 <korvo> We're not talking about the language, but the *programs* written in the language, yes? The language just gives us codes for those programs.
01:16:02 <salpynx> sgeo: i think this is the official repo for uxn: https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/uxn (it was a little hard to find)
01:16:46 <salpynx> commit log: https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/uxn/log
01:16:58 <Raoof> salpynx that is not important I created Ar2.py online and I didn't copy that function from my computer
01:17:31 <korvo> So, "total" means that every program has a well-defined mapping from inputs to outputs, and "TC" means that there is a program which implements e.g. a universal TM.
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01:18:41 <Raoof> korvo by TC I meant that it can compute all total computable functions
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01:19:51 <Sgeo> salpynx, I don't see the spec in there. I'm interested because I saw some old stuff talking about instructions that trap, but the current spec never traps
01:19:55 <Sgeo> except brk maybe
01:19:57 <korvo> Raoof: Okay. Then this is very easy: Halting is not computable, so the total function TM → 2 which tells us whether each TM halts is not computable either.
01:21:00 <Raoof> korvo yes we are talking about the set of programs that you can write using only 4 or 1 or any other number of total functions
01:21:25 <korvo> It's not really possible to run away from this because of what I mentioned earlier: your TC language must have a program which universally interprets TMs, and we can feed never-halting TMs into that program to make it run forever.
01:22:06 <Raoof> korvo halting is not a total computable function
01:22:36 <korvo> Raoof: Okay, so "total" means something more limited too.
01:22:42 <salpynx> Sgeo: you've probably found https://100r.co/site/uxn.html and https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxntal_reference.html .. I don't really know uxn, but it has been on my radar for a long time
01:24:13 <Raoof> korvo why do you mean by "more limited" ?
01:24:45 <korvo> Raoof: I mean that there are plenty of total non-computable functions, so "total language" must mean something that is much more limited.
01:26:04 <zzo38> I do know uxn, and I had written an implementation
01:26:22 <korvo> "Turing-complete" means "complete for TMs"; it means that any task a TM can do, your language can do. But that means that, like a TM, your language must be able to run forever, so it can't be total.
01:26:36 <korvo> The only way around this is to automatically detect the TMs that run forever, which is Halting.
01:26:44 <zzo38> There is also a IRC channel #uxn on Libera for discussing uxn, too.
01:27:49 <salpynx> korvo: I think you are saying what I was trying to say, but better. I'll stay silent on this and just listen for now.
01:28:40 <korvo> salpynx: Honestly, I feel like you and ais523 already put it best, and I worry that I'm like Mojo Jojo, repeating myself endlessly and unhelpfully.
01:29:23 <zzo38> I do not know of any change log for the official specification of uxn/varvara, although I wrote my own documentation which I intended to match the official specifications, and those documents are in a version control so it might be possible to look at that for some idea of a change log of the specification, although I cannot guarantee its accuracy or completeness, and it does not go all the way back.
01:29:52 <Raoof> korvo if you have a total and turing complete language then you don't need to worry about the halting problem because everything you write always halt so I don't understand why you are interested in non-computable functions ?
01:31:36 <korvo> Raoof: What does "Turing-complete" mean here?
01:32:11 <Raoof> korvo being able to compute all total computable functions
01:33:27 <korvo> Raoof: Okay. Without loss of generality, those computations are going to be given to you as Turing machines. (You can pick *any other* Turing-complete language, of course. That's why TC is such a powerful concept.)
01:35:32 <Raoof> korvo why do you want to speak TM/gibberish when you can speak Ar/English
01:35:44 <korvo> Raoof: You haven't proven that Ar is Turing-complete, so you can't pick it.
01:36:37 <korvo> Computer scientists usually use this in the other direction: build a language, implement an emulator for something Turing-complete, *then* claim that the language is also Turing-complete because the emulator is faithful.
01:43:26 <korvo> Raoof: There *is* a natural Turing-complete problem which is adjacent to Ar, but it can't be used to save your hope of a total-and-TC language. Ar implements Diophantine equations for *one* parameter, the inputs. Searching for *all* parameters is TC.
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01:58:59 <salpynx> Not sure how helpful this is, but this is my attempt at a infinte loop counter in Ar (as I understand it), with notation to specify a left and right infinte string: "inc("<sup>ω</sup> . "0" . ")"<sup>ω</sup>
02:01:02 <salpynx> I think that's a trivial example of non-Totalness.
02:03:26 <Raoof> salpynx what do you mean by "example of non-Totalness" Ar is a total language. and I didn't get your infinite loop counter can you clarify?
02:03:26 <salpynx> Like I mentioned the other day, I'm using <sup>ω</sup> to mean repetions of the string by the first infinite ordinal number.
02:04:37 <salpynx> it's a program that doesn't terminate. It's infinte copies of "inc(" followed by a "0", then terminated by infinite copies of ")"
02:06:20 <salpynx> that will increment for ever. At first I thought you were unrolling BA by allowing "<contents of loop program" x infinitely repeated, but it looks like there is no external storage, so everything has to be nested
02:07:44 <salpynx> Raoof: from the Ar readme "you can see that in the limit (unbounded program length) these four functions are turing complete", this is what I think I'm allowed to do with it
02:09:50 <Raoof> salpynx I meant that if you allow unbounded program length then obviously any total computable function is easily computable in Ar you just write the definition of the function in semi-English
02:11:04 <salpynx> is that what you meant by "unbounded program length"? I think allowing left infinite strings is weirder than just right infinite strings, but it's all a bit weird. I'm exploring infitem omega-words in other projects, so I'm kinda interested in infinite strings.
02:14:23 <salpynx> It's possible I have misunderstood you, but I took 'unrolled BA' and this "unbounded program length" mean program input could be a infinitely long string of source code.
02:15:07 <Raoof> salpynx my goal with Ar,Ar2,Ar3,... is to came up with a total model of computation that is also a practical language for programming and teaching not as an esoteric language I thought this community maybe interested in a total and TC language.
02:15:49 <Raoof> salpynx program length can be infinitely long but that turn Ar into an esoteric language not a practical language
02:17:14 <salpynx> Well, I think the _only_ way to make Ar TC, in the absence of loops is by allowing infinite source. I thought that is the argument you were making in comparing it to BA.
02:18:46 <salpynx> BA has a handful of registers, and a loop (implicit or specific? there is a loop at any rate), those are quite important for its TCness. I don't think the 4 functions are that relevant to TCness.
02:19:29 <salpynx> There was some very misleading stuff in the Z3 article which I think I've tidied a bit (that was my main concern)
02:24:26 <salpynx> "total model of computation that is also a practical language for programming and teaching" seems like a worthwile goal, but I think you'll have trouble demonstrating a language that is really both total and TC. I think you'll find it is one or the other.
02:26:47 <Raoof> salpynx I haven't studied BA that much but at first glance it's like a "while True: f(n)" where f is a total function using only add,sub,mul,div that can crash when division by zero occurs. if you unroll the loop you get iterations of f(n) using only four operation. now comes the question: is there an UNrollable function ?
02:28:18 <Raoof> salpynx *is there an UNrollable but computable function ?
02:42:32 <salpynx> Not sure i understand the question sorry. The only way I can think of 'unrolling' the function with the tools you have provided in Ar is by repeating source code infinitely like I did above. That's not going to contradict anything krovo said tho.
02:48:06 <salpynx> my apologies for being too esoteric, I took "it's TC because of infinite source code" at face value, and it made sense to me, I'm laughing now because I wrote infinitely long code, probably based on a misunderstanding (mine)
02:48:59 <Raoof> salpynx what about Ar2 and Ar3 ?
02:53:48 <Raoof> salpynx I meant to say can you write ackermann function with Ar2 or came up with a way to loop or iterate easily in Ar2 or Ar3 ?
02:58:05 <Raoof> salpynx I haven't said that there is no need for apology I didn't thought your comment was too esoteric
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03:25:23 <salpynx> well, ack = lambda m, n: inc(n) if isNonZero(m) else ack(dec(m), 1) if isNonZero(n) else ack(dec(m), ack(m, dec(n))) works, but uses Python `if` and recursion
03:26:26 <salpynx> ack = lambda m, n: If(m, inc(n), If(n, ack(dec(m), 1), ack(dec(m), ack(m, dec(n))))) runs into recursion problems using the current Ar2 If, I haven't tried yet to shotcut the evaluation if it's not needed
03:27:30 <salpynx> .. the logic seems inverted from what I'd expect isNonZero(0) == 1 , but i can work with that
03:30:47 <Raoof> you can think of u in Ar2 as a universal database and function using u as queries of the database, now without using the recursion of python and using only u can you write a query that computes ack ?
03:35:52 <salpynx> yes, but it involves a while loop, which i guess i could simulate by allowing infinite arguments or some other infinite repetition of source code
04:07:40 <salpynx> lol, i was doing well until i came to implementing 2**(n + 3) - 3 , and i think that was mentioned earlier as being hard/impossible. I already used up one infinity for faking a loop. I'm going to stop for the day on this, but i'll probably pick this up later because I already have a partial PMMN ackerman function that's going to need similar effort
04:11:37 <korvo> Raoof: Okay, I'm starting to get a little worried. Please notice that there is no value of e (the first argument to u) such that (lambda x: u(e,x)) computes the following sequence starting at 0: 1, 3, 5, 1, 2, …
04:12:11 <korvo> I generated this in the traditional fashion: [u(x, x) + 1 for x in range(20)]
04:12:42 <korvo> I recognize that you disagreed with this earlier, but we never got to *why*. So, please explain why this isn't a diagonalization.
04:16:11 <Raoof> korvo if you believe that you can compute any total computable function using u then g(x) = 1+u(x,x) = u(u(x,x)) is also a total computable function but u does not have an index for it
04:16:37 <korvo> Raoof: So u isn't a universal database, even if you believe it is.
04:18:36 <Raoof> korvo consider an ordinary mysql database if your tables does not have a summation column does that mean you can not write a query that does summation ?
04:19:35 <korvo> Raoof: Please don't be a Gödel crank. You can just choose to not do it.
04:20:19 <Raoof> korvo I accept any other alternative
04:20:44 <korvo> Raoof: u doesn't have an index for g. Therefore u doesn't have indices for all total computable functions. Done, yes?
04:25:05 <Raoof> korvo yes but do you think u is not a universal operation ?
04:25:09 <korvo> Anyway, sorry for being a jerk about this. You gotta understand that anti-Gödelian folks regularly vandalize wikis and derail philosophy/maths forums on a regular basis. There's one crank who's passed away and we're still finding his sockpuppets.
04:25:57 <korvo> Raoof: It's clearly not a universal operation, no. This is why I'm worried; it seems like you see the evidence and yet aren't accepting it.
04:28:02 <Raoof> korvo can I compute all total computable functions using u even if u does not have an index for all total computable functions ?
04:29:15 <Raoof> korvo I have to say that Ar not Ar2 has an index for g at least there is not proof that it does not have
04:30:05 <korvo> Raoof: No, because there aren't other ways to compose multi-parameter functions besides Kleene's operations. So, if there were some func that u could compute, but u didn't have an index, then it would have to be composed from other funcs that u doesn't have indices for either, and there's no acceptable base case.
04:30:21 <korvo> Raoof: I was using Ar2.py from your repository. I had to remove the tests because they weren't importable.
04:33:47 <korvo> If you pick a code for Ar, then the same construction will go through. Diagonalization is an algorithm.
04:34:30 <Raoof> korvo let me ask an uncontroversial question what is the set of functions that inc,div,mul,sub in Ar and u in Ar2 computes ?
04:35:26 <Raoof> korvo not that div in Ar is different than Ar2. div in Ar has a gap value meaning n/0 = halt and return n
04:35:48 <korvo> Not sure. I think it's a subset of primitive recursive functionals, but I'm not sure exactly what can be computed.
04:36:34 <korvo> It's kind of an awkward basis. The traditional basis is zero, succ, and higher-order primitive recursion (zero, succ, and pr in Cammy) but I suppose that your choice is workable.
04:37:06 <korvo> This channel's got a weakness for silly bases, which is in your favor. I bet somebody would help you work it out.
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04:41:49 <Raoof> korvo does the sentence "Godel's sentence is true and not recursively provable but non-recursively decidable" make sense to you ? if it does you can see that my choice of basis is not that awkward
04:43:08 <korvo> The first two parts make sense. The third part sounds tricky but not important right now.
04:43:54 <korvo> Fix a first-order arithmetic like PA and a Gödel coding. The Gödel sentence G is a true fact about *the* natural numbers, but it's also unprovable in PA, which means that PA doesn't know everything about the natural numbers.
04:46:53 <korvo> I don't see what the choice of basis has to do with it though. If you choose a basis that isn't strong enough for Gödel coding (as suggested by sub and div) then you can't prove a bunch of standard facts about natural numbers, e.g. that there are infinitely many even numbers or infinitely many primes.
04:47:29 <korvo> (This is just because weaker theories tend to ratify modular arithmetic, which has only finitely many natural numbers for any chosen modulus!)
04:56:06 <korvo> Okay, done being ranty on IRC. Have a good night.
04:57:49 <Raoof> korvo I have one more question if you have time
04:59:04 <Raoof> korvo in Ar2 you can define an anti-diagoal function that u does not have an index for it, how does this match in your model ?
05:01:15 <Raoof> korvo and if you let me ask another one, you didn't say anything about the gap value of div in Ar, how does that match in your model ?
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05:02:43 <Sgeo> An esolang is being sold on Steam.
05:02:47 <Sgeo> I... cannot process this.
05:03:07 <Sgeo> I guess it's like a Zachtronics game?
05:04:52 <salpynx> which one? I have seen the various kinds of games that involve effectively coding for exotic machines, yes, Zachtronics is what i've seen
05:06:15 <salpynx> Raoof: I'm running out of steam, but arbitary powers of 2 will be hard. po2 = lambda *a: (mul(a[0], sub(2, isNonZero(a[1]))), If(a[1], 0, dec(a[1]))
05:06:49 <salpynx> and then an infinite run of po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(2, dec(5))))))))))))))))) will let you compute 2**n
05:07:17 <Sgeo> It calls itself a "Zacklike" in its description
05:07:46 <salpynx> ... but i'm being silly with infinities, and i think i'm cheating with mulitple return values, and encoding multiple things in one value is made hard in Ar2
05:10:15 <Raoof> salpynx if you allow infinite length program in Ar or Ar2 you can define all computable and non-computable functions very easily using nested If and eq as condition
05:11:58 <salpynx> Raoof: can you implement a function that returns 2**n without infinities?
05:14:32 <Raoof> salpynx that is the thing that is controversial because to prove that 2**n > n^a for large value of n you have to take the limit so it is not clear who is cheating mathematicians or programmers
05:17:01 <Raoof> correction 2**n > n**a where a is constant
05:17:32 <salpynx> Sgeo: I've just looked at A=B, it looks like the language is Thue / string rewriting
05:25:58 <salpynx> well, i think i created a 2**n function in Ar2, but only by faking loops and recursion out of infinite source code, so it's basically still just loops and recursion. I could return a single value by using fixed width cells of any finite size. To prime encode unbounded registers i'd need to use arbitrary exponentiation, which lack of loops makes hard.
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05:38:31 <Raoof> salpynx infinite length program is a good joke but I don't think it is a fun practice
05:40:38 <salpynx> are you saying there is another way to implement 2**n in Ar2? I'd be interested to see it
05:44:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134241&oldid=134198 * BoundedBeans * (+791) /* C-INTERCAL with Funge-98 bug */
05:44:35 <Raoof> salpynx if you believe in a breakthrough in computing that allows us to transcend space and time then it is possible but it might take an infinite amount of time to figure it out :D
05:50:12 <Raoof> korvo are you still here ? because I have to go too
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05:57:10 <korvo> Raoof: My approach to Ar2 doesn't say anything at all about those properties. It treats u as a black box. Have a good night.
05:59:34 <Raoof> have a good night everybody bye for now
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06:00:55 <salpynx> do we we agree that a TC language can compute 2**n? (i think i've lost track of what we're trying to prove or disprove at this point)
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07:00:40 <b_jonas> int-e: wait a moment, re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-28.html#lTc how do you construct RgRgRgRg:------Sb:------Sc:--Cy---- that way?
07:01:01 <b_jonas> (I haven't written a program to try.)
07:02:37 <b_jonas> I'll probably eventually have to write a program for all this shapez stuff, just because I still have some general questions that I'd like to know the answer for, not just this thing
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07:09:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quantum logic circuit * New user account
07:09:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134253&oldid=134042 * Quantum logic circuit * (+162)
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07:11:44 <esolangs> [[User:Quantum logic circuit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134254 * Quantum logic circuit * (+112) Created page with "'''Quantum logic circuit''' is an important concept used in quantum computing. [[Category:Quantum_computing|?]]"
07:12:32 <esolangs> [[User:Quantum logic circuit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134255&oldid=134254 * Quantum logic circuit * (+19)
07:12:54 <esolangs> [[User:Quantum logic circuit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134256&oldid=134255 * Quantum logic circuit * (+9)
07:14:28 <b_jonas> https://xkcd.com/2965/ => this one would have been funny ten years ago, back when we were making jokes about that tobacco store that burned down here in Budapest. it's less funny now after the 2020 explosion of unclaimed ammonium nitrate in Beirut, and since the parliament forced tobacco products out of ordinary supermarkets so now they're all sold in dedicated tobacco stores that sell almost nothing
07:14:34 <b_jonas> but alcohol and tobacco, so there's now so many tobacco stores that you do expect some to burn down, plus one actually burned down close to where I live a few years ago.
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09:19:20 <wib_jonas> ok, I rescind my objection. RgRgRgRg:------Sb:------Sc:--Cy---- is just impossible, and RgRgRgRg:------Sb:------Sc:----Cy-- can be built by just joining a zigzag on top.
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10:15:37 <int-e> wib_jonas: yeah the quadrant-supporting-opposite-quadrant is a fairly big class of shapes that can't be made
10:16:01 <int-e> So anything like Cc------:----Cc--
10:16:18 <int-e> with optional slices above and below
10:16:47 <int-e> wib_jonas: I can share my code if you like but it's also a fun programming puzzle/exercise.
10:17:26 <int-e> (I like working with bit masks)
10:18:00 <wib_jonas> sure, this is easier if I program myself than if I directly use someone else's code. I may want to compare *results*, to verify that we're computing the same thing, but not the code.
10:18:40 <wib_jonas> anyway, one interesting case is RuRuRuRu:------Sb:------Sc:--CgCy-- , which can be built, but only using a top support layer that disappears
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10:21:12 <int-e> Ru------:------Sb:------Sc:--CwCw-- is slightly more awkward to make
10:27:23 <int-e> wib_jonas: that "parrot" shape is similar in concept too... it requires attaching a floating zig-zag shape with a 5th layer
10:28:22 <int-e> (I mean the --Wb----:Cg--Cg--:--Sr--Cy:Rw--Rw-- shape)
10:30:04 <int-e> wib_jonas: In any case, I find that convincing myself that shapes are impossible really hard.
10:31:02 <int-e> and I'm sure that I've given that question more thought than most
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11:04:36 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'm fine if the impossibility proof is hard since we can brute force it. what I will want to get is two things to prove that the possible shapes are easy: (1) a human-understandable algorithm of how to make any possible shape, even if the proof isn't necessarily easy to understand, further (2) an algorithm of how to make any possible shape
11:04:37 <wib_jonas> that's also not too hard to translate to a shapez factory, as in ideally I don't want a huge ROM, but I don't require that the factory must be synchronized like yours is. In both case I'd like a construction that doesn't use much more joins than necessary for the hardest shapes. For (2) I'd like to have not more actual joiners placed in the factory
11:04:37 <wib_jonas> than necessary (for some reasonable fixed throughput, don't loop everything through one joiner, in fact don't loop anything period). I don't mind if the second makes easy shapes in too many joins. For (1) I'd like one that uses as few tricky joins or cuts as necessary for every shapes, but I don't care if it doesn't optimize the number of
11:04:38 <wib_jonas> non-tricky joins or cuts for easy shapes such as those you can just build layer by layer.
11:06:28 <int-e> wib_jonas: Yeah that's slightly different goal from mine. I wanted a (mechanically) uniform recipe without many special cases. I pay for that with the huge ROM.
11:07:04 <int-e> The synchronization wasn't a goal initially... it's just something I could relatively easily do on top of those requirements.
11:07:27 <int-e> Plus it allowed me to reuse a good chunk of my existing MAM design.
11:08:34 <int-e> The ROM "only" stores ~6k shapes btw.
11:08:35 <wib_jonas> You can reuse a good chunk of an existing MAM design anyway, like at least the shape farms and pigment farms and selecting 16 quadrants with specific shapes and colors.
11:11:20 <wib_jonas> (I get the irony that the MAM that I built can't actually do that, it can only select 12 quadrants with shapes and colors given in the input, not 16.)
11:11:23 <int-e> Anyway. I'll be interested in what you come up with (if anything, no pressure).
11:11:57 <wib_jonas> yeah, when I feel like writing this sort of program I don't know if I'll want to do this or instead continue the polyomino/polyform counting
11:12:47 <int-e> (But can produce 2 belts worth of output for "simple" shapes, so it's not a complete waste.)
11:14:59 <int-e> What's the worst case, hmm. I think the lightest non-simple shape is Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----Rw-- which would only utilize 4 out of the 32 selection outputs.
11:15:56 <wib_jonas> in any case, here my goal won't be to actually build a shapez true MAM factory, nor to figure out how I'd optimize one, I'd just like to understand the tricky parts enough to know how I could build one if I wanted one
11:16:16 <int-e> Though, actually... I think my MAM handles that and produces two belts worth of output for that.
11:17:44 <int-e> Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----RwRw will only utilize 5 out of 32 though.
11:18:15 <int-e> I think that's the actual worst case for that design.
11:18:59 <wib_jonas> int-e: Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----Rw-- => I don't think so. that looks like it's easier to build than the rocket, because you can just build Ru------:--Rb---- from cutting an easy two-layer shape, then --Rc----:----Rw-- by cutting another easy two-layer shape, then joining the two
11:19:46 <int-e> wib_jonas: And yeah, actually building the true MAM is much more daunting than designing a recipe. I mostly had that part done last year.
11:21:00 <int-e> wib_jonas: Sorry. I actually have a *definition* for "simple shape", which is that it consists of two halves that can be stacked together.
11:21:59 <int-e> and here neither left and right half nor north and south half do the trick.
11:22:47 <int-e> But it's still just composed of two half-shapes stacked together, with a tilt. And I detect that and produce two belts of output.
11:23:15 <int-e> Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----RwRw actually requires stacking three parts.
11:23:56 <int-e> And that means I can no longer produce two belts of output.
11:25:19 <int-e> (it also, incidentally I think, requires a 5th layer)
11:32:12 <int-e> Yeah Ru------:--RbRbRb:--Rc---- works for that as well and doesn't require a 5th layer. Still talking about the worst case utilization of my TMAM design.
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12:21:36 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134259&oldid=134249 * Gggfr * (-2) /* the printing extension */
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12:31:57 <wib_jonas> Ru------:--RbRbRb:--Rc---- => yes, that might be the worst case I've seen in three layers
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13:04:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134260&oldid=133768 * Unicodes * (+42) /* Tests */
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14:55:31 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134261&oldid=133979 * Qawtykit * (+388) /* Added commands */
14:57:30 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134262&oldid=134261 * Qawtykit * (+25) added User Edited category
14:58:38 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134263&oldid=134262 * Qawtykit * (+2)
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15:30:03 <esolangs> [[SLet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134264&oldid=134258 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Categories
15:37:43 <esolangs> [[2 bytes B)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134265&oldid=110038 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+103) Categories
15:42:20 <korvo> Well, I'm mortified at my behavior last night. Gentle reminder that anybody can ask me to leave if I'm being disruptive.
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15:53:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134266&oldid=134260 * Tommyaweosme * (-78) typo
16:35:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134267&oldid=134266 * Int-e * (+78) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134266|134266]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) Please stop!
17:18:09 <fizzie> What is it with crawlers these days? Someone (single IP) has been crawling logs.esolangs.org at a not-crazy rate (2-3 req/s, though since some pages are quite chunky that's ~2 Mbps), but it's been going on for 5 hours, and there's not *that* much of them. Apparently they've re-fetched some of the full-month pages >100 times in the last 30 minutes.
17:18:34 <fizzie> You'd think "don't fetch the same page repeatedly" would be like the first thing you implement in a webcrawler.
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18:06:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: so it's not just that they're fetching the daily pages instead of the monthly?
18:11:32 <korvo> It's often up to small site admins like you to choose to teach them this important lesson about crawling. I think you've been very polite about the whole thing so far.
18:14:09 <zzo38> There is a crawling delay command that can be added into the robots.txt file but I think not all programs will recognize that command. And, I don't know if there is a HTTP response header that can be added to tell it that the file will not be changed in future (or for a specific amount of time).
18:14:34 <int-e> fizzie: it's likely stupid but the pages are not recognizable as mostly static; there's no Last-Modified or ETag to send back with If-Modified-With or If-Match
18:16:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: if they're fetching dailies and all three formats then five hours with 2 requests per second is less than twice as much as you have pages
18:17:19 <int-e> err, If-Modified-Since
18:17:43 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134268&oldid=134207 * TheCanon2 * (+768) Added a Hello, World! program
18:24:05 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134269&oldid=134268 * TheCanon2 * (+9) added code to show spaces instead of newlines
18:38:35 <fizzie> They were also fetching the daily pages, but only one format. Besides, 5 hours * 3600 seconds/hour * 2 requests/second = 36000 requests; surely that's more than the number of pages? The logs start from 2002 (barely), and 22 years * 400 dates/year (to round up) * 3 pages/date is only 26400 pages.
18:39:28 <fizzie> Oh, less than twice as much, but still more. Sure.
18:40:22 <fizzie> I feel like I at least thought about adding one of those headers, but maybe didn't actually do it.
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18:41:55 <fizzie> The content of all but the last day/month is technically static, though I guess it'd also need to account for any changes to the formatting.
18:45:04 <fizzie> Maybe I could generate an ETag that's a combination of the raw data file size (since the files are either frozen or append-only) + a format version number I increment for any change.
18:45:49 <int-e> similarly, Last-Modified could be the maximum of the logical page timestamp and the last time you updated the format.
18:47:08 <fizzie> I'll add that to the list of ideas.
18:50:53 <int-e> wow, this is mainstream news? "Website-Betreiber beschweren sich über gierige KI-Bots" -- "Website operators complain about greedy AI bots"
18:51:45 <int-e> One source is https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/25/24205943/anthropic-ai-web-crawler-claudebot-ifixit-scraping-training-data
19:05:10 <int-e> Claude-Web is now known as ClaudeBot. One wonders why (not really, it's absolutely obvious that this subverts robots.txt.)
19:07:12 <fizzie> Wonder if that's the explanation for consistent traffic from "facebookexternalhit/1.1" too.
19:08:19 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134270&oldid=133721 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+12)
19:08:33 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134271&oldid=134238 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) /* commands */
19:08:40 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134272&oldid=134271 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-4) /* commands */
19:08:51 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134273&oldid=134272 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) /* programs */
19:08:57 <fizzie> Meta says at https://developers.facebook.com/docs/sharing/webmasters/web-crawlers/ that "facebookexternalhit/1.1" is when content "was shared on one of Meta’s family of apps, such as Facebook, Instagram, or Messenger", and that they use "meta-externalagent/1.1" for "use cases such as training AI models", but esolangs.org was seeing a constant crawl of all pages using "facebookexternalhit/1.1"
19:08:59 <fizzie> (from Facebook's IP ranges).
19:09:09 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134274&oldid=134273 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-4) /* polyglot */
19:09:30 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134275&oldid=134274 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+240) /* polyglot */
19:09:43 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134276&oldid=134275 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-230) /* polyglot */
19:09:48 <int-e> so maybe the crawler has started sharing its links on some internal Facebook app ;)
19:09:59 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134277&oldid=134276 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-10) /* polyglot */
19:10:13 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134278&oldid=134277 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* commands */
19:10:28 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134279&oldid=134278 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) /* polyglot */
19:13:20 <int-e> . o O ( I guess the Preview button must be hidden or something. )
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19:24:03 <salpynx> huh, the wiki has no article on uxntal or uxn, but there are references to both, and one red link to uxntal. uxntal is the correct name for the language i believe.
19:24:35 <salpynx> the asm looks pretty normal, but the glyphs and hand signs make it more esoteric
19:25:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, but the User-Agent could just be someone else lying
19:27:39 <zzo38> I had suggested before, if maybe someone should add articles about uxn. Note that there is also a nonstandard variant of uxntal (but which can still produce standard binary uxn files).
19:28:57 <zzo38> It is unusual that it has hand signs, which is something I had not seen in other programming languages.
19:33:35 <b_jonas> int-e: if you have a shape that is possible, and you remove its top layer, is the remainder shape always possible or empty?
19:36:09 <salpynx> zzo38: i'll add at least a stub article later today to collect information about the uxn ecosystem, once i get all the terminology straight. I'll focus on the language uxntal. Haven't seen the variant yet, but will add variant details if I find them
19:36:15 <b_jonas> ah no, you already mentioned the parrot, and that's a counterexample
19:36:30 <int-e> Also that 3 layer example from earlier.
19:36:59 <int-e> generally the top layer may contain quadrants that support lower layers while stacking.
19:37:10 <zzo38> If you have questions about uxn then I can try to answer them.
19:38:33 <int-e> b_jonas: Ru------:Rb--Rb--:RcRcRcRc may be the most convincing example
19:39:05 <zzo38> (Note that the code and documentation of uxn38 (except uxnasm.c) is public domain, in case you need a copy of any of that; the official code and documentation is not public domain.)
19:39:40 <int-e> We have to displace the bottom support to make the example work: --Ru----:Rb--Rb--:RcRcRcRc
19:40:50 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish/Implementations_%28M-Z%29#Uxn has the nonstandard syntax, although the hex dump below it should be compatible with standard uxn (although I have not tried it, but I would expect it should work)
19:43:27 <zzo38> (The hex dump is also valid uxntal code)
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19:50:28 <fizzie> You can lie about the user agent, but presumably it's harder to lie about the source IP, and I don't think Facebook runs any general-purpose cloud services so that third parties could perform requests that appear to originate from their network.
19:51:53 <fizzie> Though perhaps "Facebook apps" can do something like that, I don't really know what they are.
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20:31:00 <esolangs> [[Genewrath]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134280 * BoundedBeans * (+10420) Created page with "Genewrath is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] where all data is stored in generic types. ==Reading of code== Carriage returns and line feeds are completely ignored, and they can be used in the code freely. They can be treated as if they are not in the code;
20:31:28 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134281&oldid=134247 * BoundedBeans * (+16)
20:31:44 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134282&oldid=132881 * BoundedBeans * (+15)
21:04:41 <esolangs> [[Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134283&oldid=129869 * TheCanon2 * (-12) If Burn can simulate Rule 110, and Rule 110 is Turing complete, then we must assume Burn is Turing complete until we can prove otherwise.
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21:38:00 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134284&oldid=134171 * TheCanon2 * (+112) Added a note about Divmeq quines
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21:42:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134285&oldid=134267 * Tommyaweosme * (+41) cite error: storm
21:46:44 <salpynx> idle observation: there seem to be frequent "X is Turing complete (under specific conditions or modification Y)" statements, where the parenthesised bit gets lost.
21:50:31 <zzo38> If there are some in esolang wiki that had lost one part, hopefully you can fix it. (That includes my user page and subpages; if you found any problems with them you can fix them since it is the wiki that anyone can improve)
21:52:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Quantum logic circuit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134286 * Tommyaweosme * (+392) Created page with " Welcome to the wiki! -[>+<---]>++.<-[>>++<<-----]>>-.+++++++.---------.++++++++++++.--.--------.>>-[-[-<]>>+<]>-.<<<<+++[<+++++>-]<.-----.>>>>>.<<<<<+++++.------------.---.>+++[<++++++>-]>>>>.<<<<<.>++[<------->-]<.++.--.>>>>>+. ~~~~"
21:55:13 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134287&oldid=132736 * BoundedBeans * (+860) C with only for loops
22:03:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134288&oldid=134285 * Salpynx * (+157) /* Tests */ do we use refs here?
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22:05:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134289&oldid=134288 * Fizzie * (-36) /* Instructions */ Restore sandbox instructions (yes, the section title is part of them)
22:07:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134290&oldid=134289 * Salpynx * (+103) more ref on article tests
22:09:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134291&oldid=134290 * Fizzie * (+66) Test the <references /> tag.
22:12:00 <fizzie> Kinda feel like most of the actual tests people use the sandbox for, they could just do in a preview rather than by editing a page.
22:12:08 <fizzie> (Including what I just did.)
22:13:07 <salpynx> fizze: I was literally just doing that with my recent sandbox edit, I considered not saving, but thought maybe other ppl might want to see what refs looked like.
22:14:08 <salpynx> I'm not convinced the appended refs will always work at the end of current articles, it needs a heading to make sense, and it can only be the last thing in the article.
22:17:36 <salpynx> zzo38: I was more making a general comment about some TC claims, prompted by R110 is TC (I think I understand it, but it still feels complicated). Filling in the correct Y clearly is often _hard_
22:19:29 <salpynx> fizzie: ok, I would use the wiki thanks for that edit :) I couldn't figure out the tag to do what you just did
22:20:11 <salpynx> (I was trying wikipedia templates which reasonably don't exist here)
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22:27:15 <QTpye> hello, anyone know how to contact an admin from the esolang wiki?
22:27:45 <QTpye> it says on the site this is the offical irc channel. i have been unadle to find any refrance on the wiki itself
22:31:25 <salpynx> this is the right place, admins frequent here (and/or read the logs)
22:40:48 <QTpye> im here wondering if i could change the name associated with my wiki account. i could always just make a new account under the new name, and change all the refrances to my new account. but that would be a lot of work, and be messy in terms of keeping tack of what i have done on the wiki.
22:51:47 <fizzie> It's not self-service, but if you put your desired new name somewhere on the wiki (e.g., your own user talk page, or mine) as a way of proving account ownership, I can try to remember how the rename-user function worked.
22:52:26 <fizzie> (And of course only if the new name doesn't exist already.)
22:54:22 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Fizzie has one rename request already, so I must've known how to do it at least back then.
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23:15:35 <esolangs> [[User:Aspwil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134292&oldid=83767 * Aspwil * (+99)
23:16:23 <QTpye> there you go, a request on the user talk page of my account, from the account requesting a name change
23:22:58 <zzo38> I had received many invalid requests on my HTTP server that seems to be TLS as far as I can tell (the first byte of the request is 0x16), although this server is non-TLS (and it is on port 80 only).
23:23:35 <fizzie> QTpye: Do you want redirects left for the old name? (It seems to be the default to do so.)
23:31:56 <fizzie> Well, I'll let it use the defaults, and we can always delete them later.
23:32:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Fizzie * moved [[User:Aspwil]] to [[User:QTpye]]: Automatically moved page while renaming the user "[[User:Aspwil|Aspwil]]" to "[[User:QTpye|QTpye]]"
23:32:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/renameuser]] renameuser * Fizzie * Fizzie renamed user [[User:Aspwil]] (128 edits) to [[User:QTpye]]: By user request
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23:33:01 <fizzie> The new name should work for logging in going forward.
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00:14:09 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134295&oldid=134269 * TheCanon2 * (+175) Added two programs and info about the quine
00:49:04 <esolangs> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134296&oldid=134237 * Salpynx * (-48) use ref tags to make this all serious and academic
00:51:10 <esolangs> [[Z3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134297&oldid=134296 * Salpynx * (+25) cats: pre 1993
01:07:43 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134298&oldid=134295 * TheCanon2 * (+195) I, Ichi's creator, formally add a new case for -1 and modified the interpreter to support it. The programs run the exact same way.
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01:15:40 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/ | Need an admin action done on the wiki? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Ais523.
01:16:06 <ais523> this is the second time recently that someone has joined asking for an admin action on the wiki, then left without giving any contact details or enough details to perform the action, making it impossible for me to help them
01:16:27 <ais523> so maybe giving them a way to contact me in the topic will help
01:16:36 <ais523> (other wiki admins, feel free to change it to your username if you feel like helping out)
01:21:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Tommyaweosme]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): repeated attempts to disturb the use of the Sandbox for testing, e.g. by changing section headers or instructions, or warring to keep edits present and only minimal use of the Sandbox for actual test edits
01:21:29 <ais523> note: this is a block on one page (Esolang:Sandbox), not site-wide
01:22:46 <QTpye> sorry a bit late i had to shower. thanks fizzie.
01:23:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Ais523 non-admin]] with an expiration time of 1 week (autoblock disabled): testing partial blocks to make sure that they work correctly
01:24:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134299&oldid=134291 * Ais523 non-admin * (-373) clean sandbox
01:26:46 <esolangs> [[Mapfuck 2: Turing Boogaloo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134300&oldid=77655 * QTpye * (-1) update user ref
01:27:16 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Blockedtext-partial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134301 * Ais523 * (+452) a better message for a block from a subset of pages
01:27:46 <ais523> QTpye: are you the user who came in here earlier looking for a rename?
01:28:01 <esolangs> [[Mapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134302&oldid=125026 * QTpye * (-3) update user ref
01:28:31 <ais523> if so, I'm glad people managed to sort it out (especially as it saves me some work)
01:28:49 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134303&oldid=94721 * QTpye * (-3)
01:29:57 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-blocked-notice-partial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134304 * Ais523 * (+122) clarify message
01:30:37 <QTpye> yep was me, the anon earlier. but i had to go to sleep so i had to shut down my pc lol.
01:31:10 <ais523> there have been a few frustrating incidents recently where someone joined, asked for help, and then left, without providing enough information for me to actually be able to help (or to contact them to ask for more information)
01:31:26 <ais523> I'm glad that this wasn't one of them
01:31:35 <ais523> (also I'm not the only wiki admin, but I'm usually the most active)
01:31:48 <esolangs> [[Sabdt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134305&oldid=104326 * QTpye * (-6) updated user ref
01:35:00 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134306&oldid=101444 * QTpye * (-4) updated user ref
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01:41:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134307&oldid=134241 * Ais523 * (+831) /* C-INTERCAL with Funge-98 bug */ reply
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01:47:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[G Sharp]]": cross-namespace redirect left over after a page was userfied
01:47:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Colon]]": Broken redirect
01:47:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[]]": Broken redirect
01:48:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134308&oldid=134281 * Ais523 * (-20) /* Non-alphabetic */ remove a language that was moved out of the main namespace by its author, and thus no longer has a page to link to
01:55:17 <esolangs> [[Incrementing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134309&oldid=119793 * TheCanon2 * (+803) Added an interpreter
01:55:32 <esolangs> [[Incrementing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134310&oldid=134309 * TheCanon2 * (-2)
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03:23:37 <esolangs> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134311&oldid=133738 * BoundedBeans * (+262) Added description of how to make decrement.
03:26:14 <esolangs> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134312&oldid=134311 * BoundedBeans * (-73) Removed '15 levels of apply nesting' requirement in Unlambda as there is no way for a combinator to figure that out and thus isn't well defined
03:30:07 <esolangs> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134313&oldid=134312 * BoundedBeans * (+410) Clarified parsing of & command
03:44:42 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134314&oldid=128205 * RainbowDash * (+1923) This is a revision of nope, if you have any problems with this revision you can go to my discussion page or change it yourself.
04:05:23 <esolangs> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134315&oldid=134313 * BoundedBeans * (-7) Fixed grammar in Syntax section
04:09:04 <esolangs> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134316&oldid=134315 * BoundedBeans * (-1) The number of the first line is one. We know this because of the Hello World example that has existed since this page's creation.
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06:14:45 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134317&oldid=134314 * Ractangle * (+6)
06:15:01 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134318&oldid=134317 * Ractangle * (-6)
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07:05:51 <esolangs> [[SLet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134319&oldid=134264 * ZCX islptng * (+200)
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07:20:40 <esolangs> [[6 bits, 12 bytes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134320&oldid=133779 * Europe2048 * (-81)
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08:28:17 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134321&oldid=134205 * Gggfr * (+85) /* examples */
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09:24:21 <esolangs> [[Uxntal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134322 * Salpynx * (+1199) add Uxntal. There's a lot more that could be said about the creators, design, and community around this language
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12:23:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134323&oldid=134146 * Xff * (+55) /* thanks aswell */
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14:02:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134324&oldid=134323 * Xff * (+9) /* thanks aswell */
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14:43:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Itoh Shimon * New user account
14:53:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134325&oldid=134253 * Itoh Shimon * (+170) /* Introductions */
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14:57:17 <esolangs> [[User:Itoh Shimon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134326 * Itoh Shimon * (+80) Created page with "I sometimes make esolangs. normalcalc: https://github.com/simon-i1-h/normalcalc"
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15:27:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134327&oldid=134189 * None1 * (+273) /* 429 Too Many Requests */ new section
15:44:54 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134328 * Itoh Shimon * (+1055) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=normalcalc |paradigms=functional |author=[[User:Itoh Shimon]] |year=31 July 2024 (JST) |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |majorimpl=[https://github.com/simon-i1-h/normalcalc Original] |influence=[[Unlambda
15:48:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134329&oldid=134308 * Itoh Shimon * (+28) /* N */
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16:04:28 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134330&oldid=134328 * Itoh Shimon * (+209)
16:08:38 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134331&oldid=134330 * Itoh Shimon * (+7)
16:11:40 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134332&oldid=134331 * Itoh Shimon * (+30) /* Operators */
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16:26:54 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134333&oldid=134332 * Itoh Shimon * (+106)
16:28:56 <esolangs> [[User:Itoh Shimon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134334&oldid=134326 * Itoh Shimon * (+36)
16:29:04 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/String arithmetic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134335 * Gilbert189 * (+6145) i don't know...
16:30:15 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134336&oldid=134333 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Category
16:31:40 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134337&oldid=134336 * Itoh Shimon * (+35)
16:32:40 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134338&oldid=83491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) Categories
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16:50:57 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134339&oldid=134337 * Itoh Shimon * (+137)
16:59:12 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134340&oldid=134339 * Itoh Shimon * (+16)
17:00:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134341&oldid=134327 * Ais523 * (+846) /* 429 Too Many Requests */ the wiki is under bot attack and sometimes that ends up disrupting the connection for legitimate users with similar IPs
17:13:14 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1307.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
17:19:30 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134342&oldid=134340 * Itoh Shimon * (+271) /* Operators */
17:19:46 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134343&oldid=134342 * Itoh Shimon * (+1) /* Operators */
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17:29:58 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134344&oldid=134343 * Itoh Shimon * (+44) /* Specifications */
17:42:02 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134345&oldid=134344 * Itoh Shimon * (+55) /* Operators */
17:43:45 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134346&oldid=134345 * Itoh Shimon * (-4) /* Specifications */
17:52:26 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134347&oldid=134165 * Tommyaweosme * (+91) taste your own medicine
17:53:11 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/progress on war]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134348&oldid=131064 * Tommyaweosme * (-75)
17:54:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/old userpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134349&oldid=130189 * Tommyaweosme * (+3034) its wartime again
17:57:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134350&oldid=134347 * Tommyaweosme * (-2700)
17:59:09 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134351&oldid=134346 * Itoh Shimon * (+91) /* Operators */
17:59:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134352&oldid=132949 * Tommyaweosme * (-20)
17:59:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives/july 10 to 31]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134353 * Tommyaweosme * (+2341) Created page with "my name is [[User:Tommyaweosme|<span style="color:SkyBlue;">tommy</span>]][[User talk:Tommyaweosme|<span style="color:RoyalBlue;">aweosme</span>]] and you should sign your posts == Do you see my edit on your user page == --
18:00:27 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134354&oldid=134351 * Itoh Shimon * (-2) /* Operators */
18:01:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134355&oldid=133946 * Tommyaweosme * (-2247) Replaced content with "hello. im a soldier, and esolang war 2 just sparked. if youve got any questions, ask em here."
18:02:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134356&oldid=134350 * Tommyaweosme * (+80)
18:15:27 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134357&oldid=134354 * Itoh Shimon * (+44) /* Operators */
19:17:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134358&oldid=134341 * Fizzie * (+2314) /* 429 Too Many Requests */ More detail.
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19:43:48 <b_jonas> what happened to ‾\o/‾ or whatever that thing was that w used to reply with?
19:46:13 <int-e> I do *not* know why those aren't the same.
19:50:08 <HackEso> wisdom is /hackenv/bin/wisdom
19:50:27 <int-e> `` cat /hackenv/bin/wisdom
19:50:28 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ f=$(find $HACKENV/wisdom -ipath "$HACKENV/wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#$HACKENV/wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnoooodl
19:51:26 <int-e> `` hurl /hackenv/bin/wisdom
19:51:27 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/wisdom
19:52:54 <int-e> `` cat /hackenv/bin/widsom
19:52:55 <HackEso> wisdom "$@" | sed 's/\<\([^ ][^ ]\)\([^ ]\)\([^ ]\)/\1\3\2/g'
19:53:13 <int-e> I was looking at this file without realizing the typo
19:54:09 <HackEso> drnoe sex//Drnoe sex has neevr bene obesrved in the widl; in fatc its' raer to see drnoes in thier nautral haibtat beacuse thye are exrtemely sh.y Exepriments wiht drnoes in catpivity haev onyl reuslted in brkoen drnoes, and a rootr stcuk in the celiing. We are stlil lokoing for a biloogical exlpanation for the evre inrceasing drnoe pouplation.
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21:30:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ThePython10110 * New user account
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22:26:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134359&oldid=134358 * Fizzie * (+490) /* 429 Too Many Requests */ A potential workaround.
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22:35:17 <esolangs> [[Nope]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134360&oldid=134318 * RainbowDash * (+52) bug fixes
22:53:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134361&oldid=134329 * Salpynx * (+13) /* U */ add Uxntal
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23:30:56 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134362&oldid=134206 * TheCanon2 * (+18) Added /// to my favourite esolangs
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23:40:41 <b_jonas> ``` if date +%Y-%m | grep -x 2024-08; then learn 'The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870'; else echo 'not yet'; fi # note to self, just repeat this command after midnight