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00:08:48 <b_jonas> ``` if date +%Y-%m | grep -x 2024-08; then learn 'The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870'; else echo 'not yet'; fi
00:08:52 <HackEso> 2024-08 \ Relearned 'password': The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870
00:29:58 <salpynx> I didn't know BB in detail, and have just been catching up. I was going to ask here if there is a TL;DR (non-Coq) explanation of the recent proof. The answer is: "We aim to have this paper published in the next two years both on arxiv and in recognised computer science venues."
00:37:08 <salpynx> my understanding of the proof is that the entire problem space of 5 state Turing machines was divided into classes of 1 or more machines, and each class was proven by whatever method was required (some considerably harder than others).
00:50:50 <salpynx> Now that all problems that can be represented by 5 state 2 symbol Turing machines are now decided, is there still work to be done to figure out if any of those TMs represent something interesting?
00:55:09 <korvo> Almost by definition, none of them can tell us anything about other maths problems. Indeed, one way of looking at it is that we are out of easy BB numbers.
00:57:34 <salpynx> i was just thinking there is probably a TC language interpreter in 5 state 2 symbol machines (because BB is for a 0 tape), is there a known say cyclic tag interpreter in there?
01:02:17 <salpynx> ... just thinking through knowing how all programs behave on 0 input doesn't really tell us much about how they would behave on non-zero input.
01:03:19 <korvo> Oh, perhaps. I suppose that those programs would still be interesting beyond "not halting".
01:04:02 <korvo> Or, like you say, perhaps it's a matter of inputs. BB only cares about inputs in terms of how many states are required to prepare them.
01:10:01 <salpynx> asking how many of those machines are interpreters for Turning complete languages (where the source is written on the init tape) seems like a valid question. Expecting an answer greater than 1 doesn't see too far fetched?
01:10:41 <salpynx> it wouldn't prove anything to find one, but it's slightly interesting
01:11:30 <salpynx> it'd be a fun way to 'discover' an esolang
01:12:36 <salpynx> Perhaps I am overestimating how much can be done with 5 states?
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01:18:27 <ais523> salpynx: there's a rule 110 interpreter but I think it's 5 symbol 2 state rather than 5 state 2 symbol, not 100% sure though
01:19:13 <ais523> (although it needs to start with a tape that has periodic sections at both ends)
01:19:47 <ais523> finitely initialized tapes are perhaps more interesting
01:21:20 <ais523> I remember seeing an article with TCness records for periodically initialized tapes, but forget where it is
01:21:33 <ais523> IIRC it had a 3 state 3 symbol UTM, though
01:28:42 <salpynx> interesting, I had thought I'd heard of low n-state m-symbol machines too. That article sounds interesting. I imagined this sort of thing would have been explored already
01:40:03 <ais523> found it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397508007287 (there's a "view PDF" link at the top)
01:40:19 <ais523> although it's quite old by now
01:41:57 <ais523> fwiw, I constructed a 2-state 14-symbol strongly universal (i.e. finitely initialized, with an explicit halt state) Turing machine: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag
01:44:53 <ais523> my link above might be relevant for korvo, too (although it might also be too old)
01:46:13 <ais523> I thought the "cited by" might be a good way to find new TCness results, but unfortunately it seems to be broken
01:46:33 <korvo> I should probably have a table of UTMs in the BB gauge, simply because I'd like to know the Pareto frontier over symbols and states.
01:46:48 <korvo> Er, that is, how adding +1 symbol changes the number of needed states, and vice versa.
01:48:09 * ais523 bookmarks the page so that it doens't take 20 minutes to find next time
01:48:10 <salpynx> i'm guessing there's no reliable way to just convert symbol/states to equivalents without analyzing the specific machine
01:50:05 <korvo> There do exist compilers that re-encode machines, and those compilers usually have a fixed number of output symbols/states. Other than that, not really.
01:53:59 <salpynx> fig 1 in that paper is exactly what I was wondering about, nice! There's a gap at 5 state 2 symbol, and finding one would be a discovery for 2 symbol machines.
01:55:26 <salpynx> oh, I see that there's a "universal" line, below which things are "weakly universal", which seems to refer to the R110 construction?
02:02:43 <esolangs> [[Remove Line Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134363&oldid=114783 * PrySigneToFry * (+1063)
02:16:10 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134364&oldid=133783 * PrySigneToFry * (+120)
02:18:25 <esolangs> [[Deadfih]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134365&oldid=131400 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+955) Added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp.
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02:33:38 <esolangs> [[X bottles of beers, take y down, x and y are in Real Numbers Set]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134366 * PrySigneToFry * (+2693) Created page with "<i>x bottles of beers, take y down, x and y are in Real Numbers Set</i> is a program designed and implemented by PSTF. This is the ADVANCED version of [[99 bottles of beer]]. It receives two real number as
02:34:10 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134367&oldid=134364 * PrySigneToFry * (+71)
02:36:36 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134368&oldid=128178 * PrySigneToFry * (+111)
02:37:25 <salpynx> I like the terms: "semi-weakly universal" for allowing infinite repeated initialisations in one direction, and "weakly universal" for allowing infinite repetitions in both directions (what "R110 is TC" requires). I have wanted the words for this for some time.
02:38:21 <salpynx> ... they are arguably not great word choices, but I like the fact they are well defined, and exist.
02:41:28 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134369&oldid=134368 * PrySigneToFry * (+832)
02:48:02 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134370&oldid=134369 * PrySigneToFry * (+3579)
02:55:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Never Gonna Fuck You Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134371&oldid=122609 * PrySigneToFry * (+459) /* */ new section
02:59:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Olympus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134372 * PrySigneToFry * (+1822) /* Commands */ new section
03:09:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134373&oldid=133501 * PrySigneToFry * (+231)
03:14:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134374&oldid=133942 * PrySigneToFry * (+136)
03:19:21 <salpynx> A 5,2 direct UTM seems highly unlikely to impossible (same with 5,2 semi-weakly universal), but a weakly-universal one seems possible, just, a proof either way would be interesting. I wonder if there are other R110 like weakly-universal constructs? Based on that paper, R110 is the only method that'd likely work.
03:19:32 <salpynx> Neary and Woods have already explored this in their (6,2), (3,3) and (2,4) machines, so maybe there's a reason they couldn't make (5,2). Their paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/0707.4489 doesn't directly say anything that indicates whether (5,2) weakly-universal is likely or not.
03:21:30 <salpynx> if it exists, it's already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised
03:27:18 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134375 * PrySigneToFry * (+1251) Created page with " is an Esolang designed by PSTF. It is 3018ad-themed. == Example program == <pre> </pre> That outputs: <pre> ..."
03:27:49 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134376&oldid=134375 * PrySigneToFry * (+6)
03:28:41 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134377&oldid=134052 * PrySigneToFry * (+41)
03:32:05 <salpynx> the other thing about these weakly-universal machines is they don't necessarily halt, they enter some behavior pattern than can be recognised from outside as halt, the papers talk of a particular kind of r110 glider that will not exist in non-halt states
03:32:15 <salpynx> Non-halting 'halt' states is something we have discussed here before.
03:32:48 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/old userpage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134378&oldid=134349 * Unname4798 * (+117) fix links
03:33:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134379&oldid=112102 * PrySigneToFry * (+3675) /* Quine by Wenyan */ new section
03:37:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:DWIM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134380 * PrySigneToFry * (+280) /* Even more programs */ new section
03:39:42 <esolangs> [[/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134381&oldid=134038 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
03:46:00 <esolangs> [[Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134382 * Unname4798 * (+219) Unname4798 can't modify the instructions of [[Esolang:Sandbox]], so I created a new sandboz.
03:46:42 <esolangs> [[Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134383&oldid=134382 * Unname4798 * (+23)
03:48:02 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134384&oldid=134030 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
04:02:05 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134385&oldid=134384 * PrySigneToFry * (+76)
04:02:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Sandbox]]": a) not an esolang; b) we already have a sandbox, we don't need another; c) please do not try to help people circumvent bans, those are placed for a reason
04:30:47 <Sgeo> What is the computational class of only using logic gates with no memory? Just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vitpEzNgaHU which showed building logic gates in Pokemon, but not memory
04:56:43 <korvo> It depends on your definition; it could be NC⁰ or AC⁰ depending on which gates you allow. There are more exotic possibilities too.
05:00:40 <korvo> salpynx: There are a couple possible combinator bases that could be universal aside from inaccessible garbage which doesn't affect the computation, or at least I've been told of the possibility. IIRC, one example is BCIK, which can't forget without W but otherwise still computes stuff.
05:01:00 <korvo> Wolfram conjectures that S alone also does this, but I don't think there's any good evidence for it.
05:01:57 <korvo> (To be candid, "Wolfram conjectures P" is, to me, evidence against P.)
05:05:10 <salpynx> korvo: funnily enough I was just reading a Wolfram ... related? paper that suggests the bb(5) program itself might be a candidate for being universal, with a conjecture that all all bb(n) (n > 2) are universal
05:07:14 <korvo> salpynx: That would be interesting. It would clash with a conjecture of Ligocki that sufficiently-large BB(n) have arbitrarily-large gaps between the champion machine's step count and the runner-up's step count.
05:07:54 <korvo> Basically, Ligocki conjectures that if we add one more state to a TM, then we don't usually get a +1 action to the corresponding BB. We get something that grows much faster.
05:08:14 <salpynx> I've had thoughts on, and explored the S alone idea, so I know what you are talking about. I felt the bb(n) n>2 conjecture needed a disclaimer, but it was interesting that it pointed to the most likely (5,2) universal machine being bb(5) itself
05:08:59 <korvo> But universal TMs (or any universal emulators) usually don't have spare or degenerate states that could be repurposed for this. So I think that a TM has to either spend its states on being good at BB, or being good at universal, but not both.
05:12:09 <salpynx> what you say sounds reasonable, that's what I'd imagine too. The paper wasn't especially convincing, but it's an interesting idea. If you are interested, its https://doi.org/10.25088/ComplexSystems.20.3.265
05:12:47 <korvo> I do love putting papers onto my reading list.
05:13:26 <salpynx> It's definitely that whole "if it behaves weirdly enough, maybe it's TC" Wolfram approach, which can be a bit exhausting to reason about
05:15:09 * korvo gestures to the Butterfly Effect
05:15:15 <korvo> Is this a Turing machine~
05:19:55 <korvo> Sgeo: Okay, I've watched the video and did some reading. I think the right class is NC⁰, assuming that the game doesn't have some exotic representation for circuits.
05:20:37 <korvo> Like, it's technically possible that the game encodes a solver for the NP-hard problem of circuit minimization, allowing it to represent circuits that wouldn't otherwise fit in the game... But not likely.
05:24:30 <esolangs> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134386&oldid=81299 * Gggfr * (+1) /* Assumptions */
05:24:52 <esolangs> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134387&oldid=134386 * Gggfr * (+2)
05:25:10 <esolangs> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134388&oldid=134387 * Gggfr * (-3)
05:26:27 <Sgeo> Also I'm surprised that Google worked on that
05:26:43 <korvo> Sgeo: No worries! Thanks for sharing the video.
05:28:28 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134389&oldid=134144 * Gggfr * (+14) /* syntax */
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06:06:40 <salpynx> here's a draft conjecture: No (n, m) Turing machine can be a UTM with a null program of bb(n + x) (x > 0) (otherwise bb(n) would equal bb(n + x)) ... but why, for sufficently large state counts, couldn't you make the null program an arbitrary bb(n+x)?
06:09:42 <korvo> Yeah, that's definitely possible.
06:11:29 <salpynx> doesn't that break bb(n) at some point? Some n will allow arbitrary Turing machines that can run bb(higher n) as null programs
06:16:36 <korvo> Oh, I mean, your conjecture sounds good, but also you're right that there could be some BB(n+x) could just happen to be the UTM on empty input.
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06:19:59 <salpynx> at some point, with enough states, you'd get to decide exactly what the null program did (I think?). Does this put a limit on choosing the behavior of the null program, or BB(n) becomes infinite after some n?
06:28:15 <salpynx> ais523: sorry for missing it when you said, but your Grill Tag significantly changes the curve on that figure, nice work!
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06:37:53 <ais523> <salpynx> here's a draft conjecture: No (n, m) Turing machine can be a UTM with a null program of bb(n + x) (x > 0) (otherwise bb(n) would equal bb(n + x)) ... but why, for sufficently large state counts, couldn't you make the null program an arbitrary bb(n+x)? ← the busy beaver function is uncomputable, I think you have just produced a proof of that
06:38:45 <ais523> i.e. the reason you can't make the null program calculate bb(n+x) is that you can't make any program do that (without already knowing the value and hardcoding it)
06:39:24 <ais523> or, hmm, I may have misinterpreted your notation
06:39:46 <ais523> or just be generally tired
06:42:30 <korvo> ais523: I interpreted salpynx to be imagining a sheer coincidence in some astronomical number of states, rather than something engineered for it.
06:48:10 <b_jonas> "still work to be done to figure out if any of those TMs represent something interesting" => sure, that's basically what writing the human-readable paper means, they want to write each of the no-halt proofs in an as easily understandible way as possible.
06:48:22 <salpynx> maybe I'm being confusing, I meant bb(n+x) to represent the _program_ that computes BB(n)
06:51:25 <b_jonas> oh, you mean running the programs for inputs other than all zero? then I don't know. and for that you have to also consider the programs that do something boring on all zeroes and so weren't interesting for the BB discussion.
06:51:55 <b_jonas> (do something boring could mean halting, or not halting because they just seek infinitely to find the next 1 symbol on the tape)
06:52:46 <salpynx> I was thinking of astronomical coincidences, but at some point I was imagining you could iterate through all meanings of the null program as well
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06:54:48 <salpynx> I think this puts a limit on what you can code the null program to do, an (n,m) UTM would have some limit on how it can initialise its tape to run a different (x,y) Turing machine
06:56:42 <b_jonas> "i'm guessing there's no reliable way to just convert symbol/states to equivalents" => there is an easy way to convert to fewer symbols (even 2), by representing each symbol with a group of multiple symbols on the tape, and converting each state to multiple states that first read to determine what simulated composite symbol is under your cursor then skip its parts to move the simulated head. it's just
06:56:48 <b_jonas> that you won't get any of these record tiny size Turing machines that way.
06:58:19 <b_jonas> I don't know how you can convert to more symbols in exchange of less states though
07:01:10 <b_jonas> "if it exists, it's already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised" => why? I expect a small universal machine would either halt or easily provable to never halt on an all-zero tape and so is uninteresting for the challenge, because if you're at the limit of so few symbols and states you can't expect the program to be interesting in two ways, as in being a universal interpreter and doing something
07:01:47 <b_jonas> that would be like expecting that the earliest video games also have an interesting attract mode when you aren't playing them
07:04:01 <b_jonas> right, korvo already said that
07:04:36 <salpynx> b_jonas: "already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised", I was assuming bbchalenge is effectively enumerating all (5,2) Turing machines, so if there is a (5,2) UTM, its on there.
07:06:14 <salpynx> From the reading I've done (in the last few hours :) ) it seems that, if it exists, the (5,2) UTM is weakly-universal, meaning that it'll be a non-terminating machine, or perhaps the UTM is the BB(5) machine itself (if a Wolframlike conjecture happens to be true)
07:09:05 <salpynx> There are known (2,4), (3,3), and (6,2) weakly-universal UTMs, so my originally totally uninformed idea that a (5,2) might exist isn't as bad as it could've been.
07:10:27 <salpynx> It's considerably less likely than I originally imagined, and I'm not even going to bother looking for a strongly universal one now, like I might have tried before reading the paper ais523 shared.
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07:21:12 <salpynx> I see now how you can't enumerate all possible (n+x, 2) candidates as null program inputs to (n, 2) UTMs, because there are more (n+x, 2) programs than (n, 2) ones, and only a fraction of (n, 2)s can be UTMs... So there isn't a systematic way to attack this, but you'd potentially cover _some_, and maybe you'd accidentally hit a higher BB...
07:26:44 <salpynx> The core of my idea was that some (n, m) non BB winners _will_ be UTMs, and a UTM can run higher BB(n) programs. If a (n, m) UTM's null program happened to be a higher BB(n+x), then BB(n) _would_ equal BB(n+x).
07:29:22 <salpynx> .. maybe that's not too profound, but could mean that there's no special reason why the BB number sequence has to increase, two BB numbers could be identical, or it could drop on n+1?
07:30:41 <salpynx> hmm, that sounds a bit cranky. It's definintely counting on astronomical coincidence, if I'm not missing something more basic.
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07:32:45 <salpynx> it's telling me there is a definite limit on what the null program can be made to do, which feels like a suitable esolang thing to examine
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07:53:38 <salpynx> This is the non-coincidental version applying to smaller n: At some n, there are sufficiently many (n,2) UTMs that a subset of them will run every (n-x,2) machine as a null program, for some x > 0.
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08:39:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134390&oldid=134299 * Unname4798 * (+53) The page Sandbox got removed
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09:07:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134391&oldid=134390 * Ais523 * (-53) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134390|134390]] by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]) please stop giving counterproductive instructions
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09:33:33 <salpynx> back of envelope calc: at least (79, 2) TMs must be explored to find every (5, 2) TM as a null input UTM: As many states as it takes bits to describe any and all (5, 2) TMs (60 bits) + at least a (19, 2) strong UTM to interpret it, assuming the UTM can just read a pretty efficiently encoded TM and execute it.
10:14:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134392&oldid=134391 * Unname4798 * (+53) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134391|134391]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]): Please stop removing productive instructions!
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10:58:09 <wib_jonas> ``` /hackenv/tmp/hlu # ok, so I succeeded to compile a hello world executable outside of HackEso but targeting it, then download it to HackEso
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11:30:09 <salpynx> I'll leave this here for comment, it's getting late for me too,
11:30:16 <salpynx> The mechanism of hitting a higher BB would be: (b, m) UTM combined with an (a, m) halting TM initialiser machine that just happens to compress a BB(a + b + x, m) init state encoded for that UTM. This would create a (a+b, m) UTM that runs a (a+b+x, M) busy beaver as its null program.
11:30:29 <salpynx> I understand that the BB(a + b + x, m) program can't be engineered, it'd have to be discovered, and it's additionally required that its code be generated by an (a, m) halting TM, so there might be data compression limitations. It seems reasonable that BB winners won't be very compressable. The only thing going for this is a large search space, and perhaps not being able to prove it couldn't happen by chance
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11:51:33 <salpynx> I must be missing something, if BB(n) can take a shortcut to BB(n+x) by chance, BB(n+1) should be able to take the same one, and so on.
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12:22:45 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134397&oldid=133068 * Leomok2009 * (+539)
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13:04:45 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134401&oldid=134400 * Itoh Shimon * (+98)
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13:45:07 <wib_jonas> apparently SMBC's recurring supervillain from https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/supervillainy has a name. he's called the Pterrordactyl. I didn't know this because the name rarely appears in strips.
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14:34:39 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134402&oldid=134298 * TheCanon2 * (+57) added to the design section
14:37:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:RainbowDash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134403 * Xff * (+193) Created page with "== on [[nope]] hello. your work with my esolang is very good. but there is one error(by me) and that is labels are just commands. jump to nearest <command> like this: store 1 1 jl 1 store 1 1"
14:39:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134404&oldid=134403 * Xff * (+175)
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14:44:27 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134405&oldid=134360 * Xff * (+59)
14:46:30 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134406&oldid=134405 * Xff * (-60)
14:49:12 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134407&oldid=134406 * Xff * (+53)
14:54:18 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134408&oldid=134407 * Xff * (+45)
15:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:Europe2048]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134409&oldid=127771 * Europe2048 * (+8)
15:13:39 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134410&oldid=133676 * Squareroot12621 * (+249) Added Messenger.
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15:49:49 <esolangs> [[BFFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134411&oldid=129597 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) Categories
15:50:13 <esolangs> [[BFFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134412&oldid=134411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
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15:58:39 <esolangs> [[Rnadom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134413&oldid=134279 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) Categories
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16:08:38 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134414&oldid=134389 * Xff * (-1) /* examples */
16:18:27 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134415&oldid=134414 * Xff * (+26)
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17:07:52 <esolangs> [[AEL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134416 * Pro465 * (+72) Created page with "{{WIP}} AEL (An Esoteric Language) is a WIP esolang by [[User:Pro465]]."
17:09:01 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134417&oldid=134401 * Itoh Shimon * (-33) category
17:09:44 <esolangs> [[User:Pro465]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134418&oldid=128080 * Pro465 * (+12) /* Esolangs created */ add AEL
17:10:11 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134419&oldid=134417 * Itoh Shimon * (+33) category
17:15:15 <esolangs> [[User:Itoh Shimon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134420&oldid=134334 * Itoh Shimon * (+58)
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17:24:45 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134421&oldid=131208 * BestCoder * (+64)
17:26:16 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134422&oldid=134421 * BestCoder * (+48)
17:26:37 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134423&oldid=134422 * BestCoder * (-1)
17:27:04 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134424&oldid=134423 * BestCoder * (+0)
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17:47:31 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134425&oldid=134416 * Pro465 * (+722) add some instructions
18:05:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134426&oldid=133923 * Tommyaweosme * (+331)
18:06:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134427&oldid=134307 * Tommyaweosme * (+377)
18:09:34 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134428&oldid=134356 * Tommyaweosme * (-169)
18:10:36 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134429&oldid=134425 * Pro465 * (+224) make it less complicated
18:14:28 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134430&oldid=134429 * Pro465 * (+170) formatting
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20:21:38 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134431 * Ractangle * (+367) Created page with "BrainofGolf is an golfing-esolang with [[Brainfuck|bf]] syntax created by [[Ractangle]] ==Commands== ===Brainfuck=== You can use the Brainfuck commands (except the dot) as variable commands {| class="wikitable" ! Command !! It's action |- | " || Turns everything in
20:22:28 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134432&oldid=134431 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Brainfuck */
20:25:10 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134433&oldid=134432 * Ractangle * (+56) /* BrainofGolf */
20:25:49 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134434&oldid=134433 * Ractangle * (+25) /* Brainfuck */
20:26:47 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134435&oldid=134434 * Ractangle * (+0) /* BrainofGolf */
20:28:40 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134436&oldid=134435 * Ractangle * (+71) /* BrainofGolf */
20:29:48 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134437&oldid=134436 * Ractangle * (+23) /* BrainofGolf */
20:31:12 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134438&oldid=134437 * Ractangle * (+74) /* BrainofGolf */
20:32:47 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134439&oldid=134438 * Ractangle * (+59)
20:41:37 <zzo38> A chess variant that my brother had made up and we had together worked to improve some of the rules is this: At the start of the game, each player secretly writes rook, knight, bishop, or pawn.
20:41:39 <zzo38> Each player can, once per game, move an opponent's piece of the same kind that you had secretly written, instead of moving one of your own pieces, as though it was the opponent moving it on their turn but you choose where to move it to (and it can capture your own pieces in this way); if you do, then after the move, that piece is now your piece.
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22:11:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134440&oldid=134396 * Ais523 * (-185) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
22:12:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Unname4798]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): repeatedly messing with the sandbox instructions, in a way that could confuse new users
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22:21:48 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134441&oldid=134362 * TheCanon2 * (+26) Added Or++
22:22:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134442&oldid=134427 * Ais523 * (+1887) /* the war */ explain
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23:17:34 <esolangs> [[Or++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134443 * TheCanon2 * (+1713) Created the page.
23:18:40 <esolangs> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134444&oldid=120076 * TheCanon2 * (+11) Or++, superset of or
23:22:34 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134445&oldid=134441 * TheCanon2 * (+4)
23:23:54 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134446 * Salpynx * (+4944) probably made a mistake somewhere... I'll recheck when i format the maths better, later
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00:54:05 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134447&oldid=133252 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+76)
01:03:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hippopotomonstrosesquipedalian]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134448 * PrySigneToFry * (+2006) /* Even longer */ new section
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01:18:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emojifunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134449&oldid=89058 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+234)
01:21:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emojifunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134450&oldid=134449 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+221)
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04:25:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Xff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134451&oldid=133399 * RainbowDash * (+631) /* On nope */ new section
04:37:54 <esolangs> [[Nope]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134452&oldid=134408 * RainbowDash * (+94) /* Count down from 100 */
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05:24:31 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134453&oldid=134430 * Pro465 * (+386) add more stuff
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05:37:50 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134454&oldid=134453 * Pro465 * (+172) add more features
06:13:30 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134455&oldid=134452 * Gggfr * (+13)
06:13:52 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134456&oldid=134439 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
06:15:45 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134457&oldid=134455 * Gggfr * (-92)
06:19:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134458&oldid=134404 * Gggfr * (+1127)
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07:28:09 <b_jonas> I wish the websites that have *-latest links where you can directly download whatever the latest version of something is would give a Content-Disposition to give a filename including version number
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08:10:29 <esolangs> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134459&oldid=70781 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Hello World */
08:25:27 <int-e> b_jonas: Can you easily do that with just symlinks? https://serverfault.com/questions/638189/make-apache-generate-content-disposition-for-symlinks never got any answer.
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09:26:23 <int-e> b_jonas: the other question, of course, is whether *users* of those links really want that or not.
09:26:49 <int-e> Because there will be people using them in scripts.
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09:53:35 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134460&oldid=134446 * Salpynx * (+496) maybe my calculations are wrong, but the (107, 2) machine seems to be working
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11:16:38 <tromp> i just added Loader's Number. i'll be happy to hear about any size improvements you can make. would be awesome to fit it in a (280 byte) tweet
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11:45:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134461&oldid=134458 * PkmnQ * (+444) /* on nope */
11:58:53 -!- fowl9 has changed nick to fowl.
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12:03:56 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134462&oldid=134460 * Salpynx * (-769) among other stupid mistakes, I was counting rules instead of states
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12:06:15 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134463&oldid=134462 * Salpynx * (-4) /* Symbol-reduction Conversion state count */
12:08:31 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134464&oldid=134428 * Unname4798 * (+68)
12:12:03 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134465&oldid=134463 * Salpynx * (+139) /* External links */ I think there are a couple of unnecessary states, so it's 105 or 106 state 2 symbol
12:12:09 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134466&oldid=134464 * Unname4798 * (+19)
12:13:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134467&oldid=134426 * Unname4798 * (+0)
12:13:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134468&oldid=134467 * Unname4798 * (+1)
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12:17:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134469 * Unname4798 * (+170) Created page with "This is the sandbox page on Esolangs. And don't forget, <span style="font-size:200%;">'''''do not remove the tests!'''''</span> Ais523, you aren't allowed on this page!"
12:19:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134470&oldid=134469 * Unname4798 * (+3)
12:19:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134471&oldid=134470 * Unname4798 * (-7)
12:20:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134472&oldid=134471 * Unname4798 * (+4)
12:20:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134473&oldid=134472 * Unname4798 * (-3)
12:27:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LillyHStClaire * New user account
12:31:13 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134474&oldid=134456 * Ractangle * (+94) /* BrainofGolf */
12:36:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134475&oldid=134325 * LillyHStClaire * (+452) An introduction
12:37:17 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134476&oldid=134474 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Brainfuck */
12:37:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134477&oldid=134473 * Unname4798 * (+31)
12:37:57 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134478&oldid=134476 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
12:38:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134479&oldid=134477 * Unname4798 * (+11)
12:38:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134480&oldid=134479 * Unname4798 * (+6)
12:38:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134481&oldid=134480 * Unname4798 * (+1)
12:52:53 <esolangs> [[Boolfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134482&oldid=101518 * LillyHStClaire * (+505) Adds a small summary on how the IO stream works
12:53:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134483&oldid=133684 * PkmnQ * (+242) /* Some ideas */ Something to look into later
12:55:06 <esolangs> [[Boolfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134484&oldid=134482 * LillyHStClaire * (+55) fix missing code blocks in IO explanation
12:58:54 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134485&oldid=134478 * Ractangle * (+184) /* BrainofGolf */
12:59:05 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134486&oldid=134485 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Examples */
13:00:05 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134487&oldid=134486 * None1 * (+58) Don't forget to categorize!
13:04:06 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134488&oldid=134487 * Ractangle * (+129) /* BrainofGolf */
13:05:19 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134489&oldid=134488 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Examples */
13:05:55 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134490&oldid=134489 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Truth-machine */
13:10:06 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134491&oldid=133074 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Esolangs */
13:11:04 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134492&oldid=134491 * Ractangle * (+7)
13:12:32 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134493&oldid=131795 * Ractangle * (-44)
13:16:44 <esolangs> [[Or++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134494&oldid=134443 * TheCanon2 * (+338) Noted input functionality and modified the interpreter
13:18:20 <esolangs> [[FastBrain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134495 * None1 * (+1861) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|i=bf}} It is made because of one of the weaknesses in bf: Moving to another cell in the tape is slow. ==Tape== Instead of a 1D tape, FastBrain has a 15D tape. ==Commands== <pre> < - Move the tape to the left > - Move the tape to the right ^ - Move th
13:18:39 <esolangs> [[FastBrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134496&oldid=134495 * None1 * (+4)
13:19:16 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134497&oldid=134361 * None1 * (+16) /* F */
13:19:59 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134498&oldid=132969 * None1 * (+47) /* My Esolangs */
13:26:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134499&oldid=134481 * Unname4798 * (-6)
13:27:51 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134500&oldid=134454 * Pro465 * (+719)
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13:39:42 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134501&oldid=134493 * Ractangle * (-896)
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14:07:39 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134502&oldid=134501 * Ractangle * (-41) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:18:17 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134503&oldid=134502 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Deadfish implementation */
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14:38:49 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134504&oldid=134503 * Ractangle * (-26) /* Block-CLFCE */
14:45:16 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134505&oldid=134504 * Ractangle * (+16) /* Block-CLFCE */
14:45:53 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134506&oldid=134492 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Esolangs */
14:47:26 <esolangs> [[Xdi8 aho fHL mA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134507&oldid=131749 * PrySigneToFry * (+119)
14:49:22 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134508&oldid=131796 * Ractangle * (+57) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:50:09 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134509&oldid=134287 * Ractangle * (+57) /* (script()) */
14:50:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134510&oldid=119273 * PrySigneToFry * (+173) /* Huh? */ new section
14:51:36 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134511&oldid=134508 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Commands */
14:51:57 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134512&oldid=134511 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Truth-machine */
14:52:45 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134513&oldid=134512 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:53:09 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134514&oldid=134513 * Ractangle * (-29) /* Commands */
14:53:53 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134515&oldid=134514 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:54:27 <esolangs> [[UTC+8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134516&oldid=119295 * PrySigneToFry * (+122)
14:54:35 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134517&oldid=134509 * Ractangle * (-19) /* (script()) */
14:57:21 <esolangs> [[Or++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134518&oldid=134494 * TheCanon2 * (+0) forgot space
15:00:21 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134519&oldid=134370 * PrySigneToFry * (+756)
15:01:23 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134520&oldid=134517 * Ractangle * (-293) /* CLFCE */
15:02:03 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134521&oldid=134519 * PrySigneToFry * (+44)
15:02:18 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134522&oldid=131798 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Deadfish implementation */
15:02:38 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134523&oldid=134520 * Ractangle * (-3) /* 'interbasic */
15:03:15 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134524&oldid=134385 * PrySigneToFry * (+296)
15:04:09 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134525&oldid=134522 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Commands */
15:05:50 <esolangs> [[?++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134526&oldid=129034 * Ractangle * (-8) /* One Time Cat */
15:10:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134527&oldid=60719 * PrySigneToFry * (+146) /* I written a poem for this Esolang( */ new section
15:20:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134528&oldid=134374 * PrySigneToFry * (+1095)
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15:23:55 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134529&oldid=134490 * Ractangle * (+17) /* BrainofGolf */
15:24:20 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134530&oldid=134529 * Ractangle * (-16) /* BrainofGolf */
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15:27:56 <esolangs> [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134531&oldid=127495 * PrySigneToFry * (+2037) Edit on Hello, world!
15:33:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134532&oldid=127496 * PrySigneToFry * (+878) /* A pseudo code */ new section
15:37:59 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/TEST2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134533 * PrySigneToFry * (+309) Created page with "<span lang="zh" style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:scale(1,1);margin:0em -0.89em 0em -0.18em;"><span style="display:inline-block;transform:translate(0%,0%) scale(0.73,1)">{{{}}}</span><span style="display:inline-block;t
15:38:13 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/TEST2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134534&oldid=134533 * PrySigneToFry * (-12)
15:39:21 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134535&oldid=133758 * PrySigneToFry * (+45)
16:52:03 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134536&oldid=134500 * Pro465 * (+349) add infobox
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17:02:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Xff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134537&oldid=134451 * Xff * (+198)
17:08:18 <esolangs> [[401]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134538 * Xff * (+409) Created page with "401 is a very simple esolang made to be turing complete and have less commands than [[nope]]. oh also it was made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == syntax == there are 4 commands: xy will set x to the binary signed number y xyz set x to y plus z. y and z can only be varibles x: if x i
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17:26:38 <esolangs> [[95-98]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134539 * Xff * (+1021) Created page with "95-98 is a esolang thats just... stupid. it was made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == name == the name comes from a wikipedia article where it said 95-98 somewhere == how it works == memory is stored in a list. the command <code>x-y</code> will append all the numbers in range x to y,
17:46:25 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134540&oldid=134539 * Xff * (+13)
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17:56:14 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134541&oldid=134540 * Xff * (+393)
17:56:30 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134542&oldid=134541 * Xff * (+0)
17:57:01 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134543&oldid=134542 * Xff * (+0) /* computational class */
17:57:11 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134544&oldid=134543 * Xff * (+0) /* computational class */
18:01:57 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134545&oldid=134544 * Xff * (+147)
18:13:30 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134546&oldid=134536 * Pro465 * (+121)
18:18:32 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134547&oldid=134545 * Xff * (+137) /* computational class */
18:18:42 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134548&oldid=134547 * Xff * (-1) /* computational class */
18:19:27 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134549&oldid=134546 * Pro465 * (-1) /* Fibonacci */ fix
18:35:08 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134550&oldid=134548 * Xff * (+228)
18:40:00 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134551&oldid=134550 * Xff * (+357)
18:41:10 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134552&oldid=134551 * Xff * (+17) /* computational class */
18:42:48 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134553&oldid=134552 * Xff * (+49)
18:54:49 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134554&oldid=134553 * Xff * (+126) /* tips */
18:55:23 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134555&oldid=134554 * Xff * (+4) /* examples */
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19:11:14 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134556&oldid=134555 * Xff * (+34) /* examples */
19:11:46 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134557&oldid=134556 * Xff * (+8) /* examples */
19:12:03 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134558&oldid=134557 * Xff * (+1) /* computational class */
19:13:54 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134559&oldid=133677 * Xff * (+128) /* */
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19:27:35 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134560&oldid=134466 * Tommyaweosme * (+107)
19:28:38 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134561&oldid=134132 * Xff * (+36) /* Examples */
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19:32:00 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134562&oldid=134558 * Xff * (+106)
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20:03:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gggfr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134563&oldid=133393 * RainbowDash * (+791) /* on nope */ new section
20:03:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gggfr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134564&oldid=134563 * RainbowDash * (+95) Signature
20:08:30 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134565&oldid=132148 * Xff * (-26)
20:09:56 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134566&oldid=134530 * Ractangle * (-193) /* BrainofGolf */
20:11:25 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134567&oldid=134566 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Truth-machine */
20:13:23 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134568&oldid=134567 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Brainfuck */
20:13:40 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134569&oldid=134562 * Xff * (+83) /* name */
20:16:41 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134570&oldid=134569 * Xff * (+50)
20:18:45 <esolangs> [[BrainofGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134571&oldid=134568 * Ractangle * (+157) /* BrainofGolf */
20:23:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]": a) archiving a page for test edits is inherently useless; b) clearly an attempt to circumvent a block
20:23:07 <esolangs> [[!()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134572&oldid=133653 * Xff * (+33) /* examples */
20:23:15 <esolangs> [[!()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134573&oldid=134572 * Xff * (+0) /* examples */
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20:26:01 <ais523> re: the "sandbox wars" – I have realised, that under the default principle of "follow Wikipedia's rules except when ours are explicitly different", I should be asking other administrators to do sandbox-related blocks rather than doing them myself
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20:26:17 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134574&oldid=134321 * Xff * (+33) /* examples */
20:26:29 <ais523> are people OK to let me continue doing this, and/or to take over the blocks themself to make it clear that it isn't just one admin's opinion?
20:26:41 <ais523> I am still amazed that something this ridiculous has lead to this much controversy
20:26:41 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134575&oldid=134574 * Xff * (+1) /* examples */
20:27:30 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134576&oldid=134575 * Xff * (+1) /* examples */
20:27:40 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134577&oldid=134576 * Xff * (+0) /* examples */
20:31:21 <esolangs> [[Ns2dL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134578&oldid=133616 * Xff * (+0)
20:31:40 <b_jonas> asking other moderators works better on bigger wikis which have more moderators that are active
20:32:00 <fizzie> Was going to say. I think the problem with that is, all us other nominal admins are useless wretches who never manage to get anything done.
20:33:24 <fizzie> But I'm happy to at least confirm that I agree with your interpretation of the Sandbox page's intended purpose, and wish people would just stop messing with it. (They're of course welcome to continue their preservation work outside the wiki. Not that I really understand it fully.)
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20:37:05 <ais523> yes – although we probably can't interfere with what they're doing offwiki, I think it wouldn't make sense to do so even if we could
20:38:39 <esolangs> [[Slashist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134579&oldid=132864 * Xff * (+11) /* Cat program */ added code formatting
20:38:58 <esolangs> [[Slashist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134580&oldid=134579 * Xff * (+11) /* Truth machine */ code formatting
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20:40:12 <b_jonas> can we book an arena, buy some weapons, and get them to fight to death? only it's the 21st century so we have to put cameras to their forehead for a nice first person view shots
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20:41:47 <esolangs> [[Template:Reflist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134581 * Ais523 * (+14) a few people have attempted to use this template, presumably in an analogous manner to the template with the same name at Wikipedia: create a template that does the same thing (but with code that's written from scratch and is much simpler)
20:43:50 <fizzie> By the way, do we know if these are Discord people? And/or, is there any cross-pollination between the IRC channel and the (two?) Discord communities?
20:44:10 <fizzie> I seem to have gotten an impression that the two had some sort of a spat.
20:44:29 <Sgeo> ...There are two Discord communities?
20:44:32 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134582&oldid=134561 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
20:44:50 <fizzie> According to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal there are.
20:44:51 <Sgeo> I most esolang here, but everything else I'm mostly on Discord. I've talked on one of the Discords a bit lately
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20:45:30 <ais523> there used to be two, with some sort of dispute about which one was "official" / new users should go to (presumably they both wanted it), but I don't know what happened after that
20:45:58 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134583&oldid=134559 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) Sort
20:46:39 <ais523> it would be helpful if one or more of the regulars here was also a regular in the Discord community/communities, so that we could have some idea of what was going on over there
20:46:58 <fizzie> Without an account, Discord apparently shows you user counts; there's 50 users "online" on one, and 218 on the other, which doesn't sound like a definite victory one way or another.
20:47:23 <fizzie> I don't know if the sandbox thing has anything to do with either Discord group, it just sounds like the sort of thing that could.
20:48:11 <ais523> by comparison, there are 80 nicknames currently in this channel, which I suspect might be analogous to the Discord user counts
20:48:22 <ais523> i.e. mostly idlers, but people who would notice if you pinged them, plus the occasional bot
20:48:58 <ais523> I get the impression that many of the people messing with the sandbox know each other *somehow* offwiki, e.g. they are doing things with each others' permission but the permission wasn't sought onwiki
20:50:46 <fizzie> (Discord also shows "member" counts, 152 and 768 respectively, but I don't know if that's more like "has once been there and still has a Discord account and hasn't taken a positive step to disassociate themselves" or something else.)
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20:53:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Or++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134584 * Ais523 * (+397) computational class proof is wrong
20:59:20 <esolangs> [[( )]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134585 * Xff * (+1132) Created page with "{{{{wrongtitle|title=[ ] }} '''[ ] ''' is a very simple and very stupid esolang made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == how it works == <code>[]</code> will swap the chars in and outside the braces.(so <code>[A]B<code> become <code>[B]A<code>. if there is a space before the braces it wi
20:59:44 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134586&oldid=134585 * Xff * (+6) /* how it works */
20:59:56 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134587&oldid=134586 * Xff * (-2)
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21:06:23 <b_jonas> I think I joined these Discord guilds, or at least one of them, though I don't really use them for anything and they'll be among the first I leave when I leave the 200 guild limit
21:06:52 <b_jonas> I'm on only one of them I think
21:08:03 <ais523> ooh: apparently tag systems are TC with only two symbols: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.6700
21:08:24 <b_jonas> both of their logos is a trilime, I'm on the one whose logo is a three-colored trilime, the other's logo is a rainbow trilime
21:09:32 <ais523> even better, one of the symbols appears to expand to itself – which may make this good for creating other small universal constructions
21:10:53 <b_jonas> we should make a fourth version of the trilime (besides these two and the wiki logo) and call it the official logo of this channel
21:11:08 <HackEso> logo? No such file or directory
21:12:54 <ais523> I don't think IRC channels normally have logos
21:13:20 <fizzie> I tried to make one that was three rectangles, somewhat similarly positioned, with colors taken from the original, but it didn't really look good.
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21:14:17 <fizzie> I guess the IRC channel's logo could be used as the favicon of logs.esolangs.org, now it's just the regular trilime.
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21:14:59 <b_jonas> I should try to photograph three slices of a lemon
21:15:14 <ais523> the history of the trilime is great
21:15:26 <ais523> IIRC it was originally a placeholder image, but it fit so well we decided to keep it
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21:15:38 <drwizard> wow! this channel is so much bigger than #cs
21:16:18 <b_jonas> is that why Thue is the featured language forever? it "fits so well"?
21:16:41 <drwizard> where is Thue the featured language?
21:17:01 <HackEso> drwizard: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:17:50 <ais523> no, Thue is mostly just the featured language because it takes a lot of effort to get a page up to a high enough level of quality to feature, and because the featured language process ends up getting very biased if I try to do the whole thing by myself
21:18:17 <drwizard> what does the number 523 mean? what's its significance?
21:18:31 <ais523> it was originally randomly selected
21:18:40 <ais523> (by a computer, not by me)
21:18:47 <ais523> followers of Discordianism apparently find this hilarious
21:18:51 <drwizard> so is this the real place to discuss computer science?
21:19:04 <drwizard> because otherwise #cs is almost dead
21:19:17 <ais523> in a way – this place discusses esoteric programming languages, but there is something of an overlap with computer science
21:19:34 <fizzie> It's also... often not very lively here either.
21:19:41 <drwizard> and #bitwise is active but they seem to focus more on reading complete books
21:19:42 <ais523> there is a bias towards dicussing things that aren't practically useful here; we generally assume that there are other places doing the useful things, but maybe there aren't?
21:20:03 <drwizard> ais523: interesting. so then I'll ask my CS questions here when I have them. hope that's fine.
21:21:17 <ais523> I think CS might be technically offtopic, but a) conversation here doesn't always stay ontopic and b) esolangs run into random areas of CS often enough that it is hard to tell for sure that a CS question is offtopic
21:22:04 <drwizard> then I'll stick to #bitwise for practical matters and ask questions about more theoretical stuff here
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21:22:39 <drwizard> I'm guessing things theory of computation, complexity classes, decidability, etc. would be ok here?
21:22:45 <ais523> I think #esoteric is currently in the state of "it can be idle for ages at a time, but if two people start having a conversation then often others join in"
21:23:07 <ais523> we discuss computational class more often that complexity class, but complexity class does come up from time to time
21:23:37 <ais523> theory of computation and decidability are very commonly discussed, although the things we apply them to are often pretty weird
21:24:06 <b_jonas> discussing computational class vs complexity class... which one does this month's ultra-secret password belong to?
21:24:09 <ais523> often, when a low-level esolang is designed, one of the most obvious questions is "is this Turing-copmlete"
21:24:36 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the distinciton is that complexity class is based around how long a computation takes, whereas computational class is based around whether you can do it at all
21:25:24 <ais523> the whole busy beaver project is based around taking an uncomputable function and trying to compute as much of it as we can – we know that eventually we will get stuck, but don't know where or why
21:25:46 <ais523> or, well, we know why in general terms, but not what the specific issue will be
21:29:19 <b_jonas> sure but that description doesn't apply to complexity classes only because we can't prove that we'll get stuck. if someone guaranteed that some computational problem (like breaking a cryptographical primitive) takes exponential time in its size, we'd still try to solve as much of it as we can and see how big sizes we can still wolve
21:30:08 <ais523> there are two parts to the busy beaver problem, really: which machines halt, and how long does the slowest take to halt?
21:30:25 <ais523> and the former feels like more of a computational class problem, whereas the latter is complexity; but the former is probably more interesting
21:31:59 <b_jonas> btw somehow the youtube content miners found out about the "who can name a bigger number" thing and there's suddenly like half a dozen videos out about it. I haven't try to watch them yet because when a topic is so trendy most of the videos would just make me despair, and I already know where to look for good articles on that topic.
21:32:13 <b_jonas> the weird part is that one of the videos is by CodeParade
21:32:42 <b_jonas> (haven't watched that one either yet)
21:33:01 <b_jonas> I know this sometimes happens for some topic, when everyone tries to be the first to cover the same topic
21:34:32 <drwizard> b_jonas: what's the significance of codeparade? is that a popular name or personality?
21:35:32 <ais523> I think "in Magic: the Gathering, the furthest distance you can send the opponent's life total below zero, on turn 1, with a Vintage-legal 60-card deck that is incapable of sending it an arbitrarily far distance" is likely to win most biggest-number competitions that don't use a similar construction
21:36:04 <ais523> people have constructed Ackermann-like functions with the Busy Beaver function as part of it, in that
21:39:58 <b_jonas> ais523: that ... might run into a problem where the M:tG rules aren't clear enough
21:40:26 <b_jonas> and even besides that I think people have named numbers bigger than that, but of course I can't prove this
21:41:04 <b_jonas> drwizard: that I have heard of his youtube channel before these videos appeared
21:41:24 <ais523> b_jonas: that is possible, I guess
21:41:42 <ais523> there is the whole "is it possible to use Shaharazad as a halting oracle?" thing, but Wizards solved the problem by banning it from Vintage
21:41:48 <b_jonas> ackermann-like functions with the busy beaver function isn't something that didn't occur to the big number people before M:tG
21:42:31 <b_jonas> "Wizards solved the problem by banning it from Vintage" => uh...
21:43:06 <b_jonas> haven't people already used the M:tG rules about infinite loops as a halting oracle?
21:43:24 <ais523> possibly but I think the consensus among judges I've asked is that they don't work like that
21:43:38 <ais523> in that a loop of actions which never repeats may not be a draw
21:44:06 <ais523> the purpose of Shahrazad would be to replace the draw with something that allows the game to continue, so that a "doesn't halt" result wouldn't immediately cause a halt
21:44:18 <b_jonas> well it can't be just any actions, you have to at least give the players no choice to break the loop
21:44:42 <b_jonas> but yeah, it's possible that the rules don't allow it
21:45:13 <b_jonas> in any case, none of that should affect how large a number you can name using a modified version of M:tG
21:45:52 <b_jonas> as long as the rules for the modified version are clear enough
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21:53:37 <b_jonas> I'm also not sure if that M:tG number can even reasonably be made well-defined
21:54:08 <b_jonas> but I'm very much not an expert on the large number thing, I mostly ignored it
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22:42:49 <esolangs> [[Thue/Turn based battle game]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134588 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+656) Created page with " {input}::=::: attackE::={inputted} heal::=PP{inputted} {inputted}::=A{sayAttack}; {sayAttack}::=~ ENEMY ATTACKS! PA;::={infoplayer<{printplayer}} {printplayer}::=~ PLAYER HP: {print
22:43:06 <esolangs> [[Thue/Turn based battle game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134589&oldid=134588 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+269)
22:43:20 <esolangs> [[Thue/Turn based battle game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134590&oldid=134589 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-184)
22:44:25 <esolangs> [[( )]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134591&oldid=134587 * Ais523 * (+47) prevent some of the spaces being elided by MediaWiki, or by the browser after passing through MediaWiki
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00:04:40 <korvo> ais523: As a Discordian: Yes, it's hilarious. Discordian numerology highlights 5 and 23 (and equations like 5 = 2 + 3), that's all, but they're highlighted for their ubiquity.
00:05:36 <korvo> Like, 5 is a good default length for certain buffers and caches, it's a good cutoff for individual items vs piles of items, it's a good number of acts for a dramatic play, but it's not magic. I think.
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00:06:56 <korvo> So for a PRNG to tell you that 523 is "random" when its source is somewhere between "trust me i got the good entropy" and "i made it up by decoding the entrails of divine truth" is *extremely* funny, on par with that one part of Illuminatus! where all the Olympian gods are sitting around smoking cannabis.
02:24:44 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134592 * Tommyaweosme * (+736) Created page with "<!-- If you are not ais523, ignore this. If you are ais523, you do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason: Your username or IP address is blocked from editing this page. You are still able to edit most other pages on
02:25:16 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134593&oldid=134560 * Tommyaweosme * (+737)
02:25:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134594&oldid=134355 * Tommyaweosme * (+738)
02:35:09 <korvo> Cargo-cult admin. A bold strategy.
02:53:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheMCoder * New user account
03:07:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134595&oldid=134475 * TheMCoder * (+97) /* Introductions */
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03:08:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134596&oldid=134595 * TheMCoder * (+0) /* Introductions */
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03:10:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134597&oldid=134596 * TheMCoder * (+168) /* Introductions */
03:24:53 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134598 * TheMCoder * (+1344) sixty times harder than assembly
03:25:08 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134599&oldid=134598 * TheMCoder * (-29) /* Sixtyfeetunderassembly */
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03:27:48 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134600&oldid=134599 * TheMCoder * (+108) /* Code */
03:28:20 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134601&oldid=134600 * TheMCoder * (-1) /* Code */
03:29:47 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134602&oldid=134601 * TheMCoder * (+60) /* Code */
03:36:00 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134603&oldid=134377 * TheMCoder * (+59) /* General languages */
03:43:13 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134604&oldid=134602 * TheMCoder * (+70)
03:45:08 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134605&oldid=134604 * TheMCoder * (-45)
03:45:39 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134606&oldid=134605 * TheMCoder * (-4) /* Overview */
03:52:57 <Sgeo> What... even was on the sandbox page that's so important to them? Do I want to know?
04:08:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134607&oldid=134532 * PrySigneToFry * (+526)
04:11:45 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134608&oldid=134524 * PrySigneToFry * (+109)
04:16:40 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134609&oldid=134608 * PrySigneToFry * (+31)
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05:00:44 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134610&oldid=134549 * Pro465 * (+56) /* Some Examples */ add triangular numbers example
05:09:06 <salpynx> `` python3 -c "from random import seed, randint; seed(23); print(randint(23 * 5 * 2 - 3, (5*2)**3))"
05:09:22 <salpynx> can confirm, it's a totally random number!
05:18:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134611&oldid=134497 * Xff * (+13) /* Non-alphabetic */
05:19:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134612&oldid=134611 * Xff * (+2) /* Non-alphabetic */
05:19:35 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134613&oldid=134591 * Xff * (+1)
05:19:49 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134614&oldid=134613 * Xff * (+1) /* examples */
05:22:16 <salpynx> There was a 1/773 chance of getting that result. 773 is the 137th prime number. 137 is the 33rd prime number. 773 / 33 = 23.4242424242 :mindblown:
05:25:47 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134615&oldid=134614 * Xff * (+42) /* how it works */
05:27:40 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134616&oldid=134615 * Xff * (+13)
05:29:22 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134617&oldid=134616 * Xff * (+98)
05:29:35 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134618&oldid=134617 * Xff * (+1)
05:38:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Entropy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134619&oldid=121857 * Ractangle * (+160) /* i found this */ new section
05:44:10 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134620&oldid=134618 * Xff * (+36)
05:52:20 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134621&oldid=130729 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Hello World */
05:54:38 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134622&oldid=134621 * Ractangle * (-36) /* Commands */
05:59:31 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134623&oldid=134622 * Ractangle * (+7) /* 99 bottles of beer */
06:05:09 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134624&oldid=134593 * Unname4798 * (+55)
06:06:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134625&oldid=134592 * Unname4798 * (+7)
06:06:57 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134626&oldid=134623 * Ractangle * (+159) /* Empty Program */
06:07:32 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134627&oldid=134624 * Unname4798 * (-596)
06:07:43 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134628&oldid=134626 * Ractangle * (-110) /* Hello World */
06:08:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134629&oldid=134594 * Unname4798 * (-595)
06:09:40 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134630&oldid=134628 * Ractangle * (+30) /* 99 bottles of beer */
06:15:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134631&oldid=134630 * Ractangle * (+210) /* Commands */
06:19:59 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134632&oldid=134631 * Ractangle * (+105) /* Class */
06:20:23 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134633&oldid=134632 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Class */
06:20:36 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134634&oldid=134633 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Class */
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06:59:21 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134635&oldid=134634 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Commands */
07:11:48 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134636&oldid=134635 * Ractangle * (+180) /* Examples */
07:22:34 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134637&oldid=134636 * Unname4798 * (+0)
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09:35:04 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134638&oldid=134637 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Class */
09:35:52 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134639&oldid=134638 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Class */
09:36:12 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134640&oldid=134639 * Ractangle * (-157) /* Empty Program */
09:37:07 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134641&oldid=134640 * Ractangle * (-21) /* Class */
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09:45:08 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134642&oldid=134641 * Ractangle * (+12) /* 99 bottles of beer */
09:46:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 5anz * New user account
09:46:49 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134643&oldid=134642 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Commands */
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09:56:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134644&oldid=134597 * 5anz * (+440)
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10:03:57 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134645&oldid=134643 * Ractangle * (+94) /* Class */
10:13:17 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134646&oldid=134645 * Ractangle * (+114) /* Class and Variables */
10:16:08 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134647&oldid=134646 * Ractangle * (+45) /* Commands */
10:27:29 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134648&oldid=134647 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Empty Program */
10:33:16 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134649&oldid=134505 * Ractangle * (-23)
10:56:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134650&oldid=133862 * HammyHammerhead * (+121) /* SOMEBODY NOTICED THIS */
11:00:59 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134651&oldid=134263 * HammyHammerhead * (+343)
11:03:56 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134652&oldid=134651 * HammyHammerhead * (+70)
11:04:48 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134653&oldid=134652 * HammyHammerhead * (+53) /* Examples */
11:05:37 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134654&oldid=134653 * HammyHammerhead * (+4) /* Hello World */
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11:48:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gggfr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134655&oldid=134564 * Gggfr * (-684)
11:49:45 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134656&oldid=134457 * Gggfr * (+58)
11:50:05 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134657&oldid=134656 * Gggfr * (-2)
11:50:48 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134658&oldid=134657 * Gggfr * (-7)
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12:04:27 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134659&oldid=134620 * Gggfr * (+28) /* examples */
12:05:16 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134660&oldid=134659 * Gggfr * (+1) /* examples */
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12:06:10 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134661&oldid=134660 * Gggfr * (+101) /* how it works */
12:06:55 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134662&oldid=134661 * Gggfr * (-10) /* how it works */
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12:13:36 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134663&oldid=134570 * Gggfr * (+8) /* how it works */
12:13:51 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134664&oldid=134663 * Gggfr * (+0) /* examples */
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12:47:49 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134665 * Unname4798 * (+482) Created page with "Sixtyfeetunderassembly+ is an extension of [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]]. == Commands == <pre> Command |Meaning ----------------------------------------------------------- OUT |Output <v> as ASCII character. SET
12:48:48 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134666&oldid=133583 * Unname4798 * (+29)
12:49:13 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134667&oldid=134666 * Unname4798 * (+47)
12:50:38 <esolangs> [[Brainletter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134668&oldid=132810 * Unname4798 * (-26) Multiply by two doesn't work with this esolang
13:01:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134669 * Unname4798 * (+100) Created page with "== Instructions (please don't remove/hide/make hard to read) == Do not remove the stuff! == Stuff =="
13:02:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134670&oldid=134669 * Unname4798 * (+76)
13:03:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134671&oldid=134670 * Unname4798 * (+0)
13:03:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134672&oldid=134671 * Unname4798 * (+1)
13:03:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134673&oldid=134672 * Unname4798 * (+3)
13:03:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134674&oldid=134673 * Unname4798 * (-20)
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13:21:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134675&oldid=134468 * Unname4798 * (+0)
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13:59:41 <HackEso> [U+0053 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER S] [U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B] [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+0445 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER HA]
13:59:59 <fizzie> I guess I should probably do something about that per the previous discussion of making it clear it's not just an ais523 opinion.
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14:04:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Esolang:Sndb]]": Unicode homoglyphs in page name intended to confuse; off-topic; the wiki already has an actual sandbox for edit tests; if you want to preserve its contents forever, please do so external to the wiki (note that all the old revisions remain available in the page history anyway).
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14:31:46 <wryl> Has anybody made a parallel version of Thue?
14:32:23 <wryl> I feel like there's opportunity there.
14:56:20 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134676&oldid=134610 * Pro465 * (+95) add new instruction "!"
14:57:02 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134677&oldid=134676 * Pro465 * (-1) /* Fibonacci */ golf it
15:12:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134678 * Unname4798 * (+139) Created page with "== Note == All of the users with the <pre>deletepages</pre> right are permablocked from doing anything! '''Do not delete stuff!''' == Stuff"
15:12:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134679&oldid=134678 * Unname4798 * (+4)
15:13:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134680&oldid=134679 * Unname4798 * (-11)
15:15:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134681&oldid=134680 * Unname4798 * (-3)
15:15:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134682&oldid=134681 * Unname4798 * (+0)
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15:24:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sndb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134683&oldid=134682 * Unname4798 * (-3)
15:27:32 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134684&oldid=134667 * Unname4798 * (+120)
15:27:52 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134685&oldid=134684 * Unname4798 * (+0)
15:29:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134686&oldid=134675 * Unname4798 * (+28)
15:32:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134687&oldid=134686 * Unname4798 * (+11)
15:33:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134688&oldid=134687 * Unname4798 * (-11)
15:33:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134689&oldid=134688 * Unname4798 * (+11)
15:43:31 <korvo> They...really don't know that we see all edits, huh?
15:43:51 <korvo> I really hope these are high-school students bored during summer vacation.
15:55:23 <int-e> `unidecode Sаndbох
15:55:24 <HackEso> [U+0053 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER S] [U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B] [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+0445 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER HA]
15:55:38 <int-e> (just seeing if it's the same; it is)
15:56:12 <int-e> I guess you can revoke page creation rights if you want another iteration
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16:14:54 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134690 * 5anz * (+4043) Created page with "NOTE: I AM STILL WORKING ON THIS ARTICLE. PLEASE DO NOT EDIT IT UNLESS YOU FIND A MISTAKE LIKE SAYING "Esotreic". B i n a r y is an [[Esoteric programming language]] by 5anz. That's me, so I'm going to stop speaking in the third person. It's my first Esolang, but more
16:21:05 <fizzie> I'd look for an extension that does something like domain name salespersons do when they prevent you from creating misleading domain names using homoglyph trickery (I *think* that's a thing), but they'd probably just do something like "Sandbox2".
16:21:54 <fizzie> Anyway, I guess a (week's?) block from creating new pages might be okay, just didn't want to do that.
16:24:43 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134691&oldid=134690 * 5anz * (+467)
16:28:00 <fizzie> Ooh, didn't notice I'm officially on a list of "enemies" too.
16:35:06 <fizzie> This is almost certainly a bad idea and they'll just continue the nonsense in the main namespace, but I'll still make it apply just to the "Esolang" namespace at first.
16:37:09 <fizzie> Actually, I'm not sure if a partial namespace-wide block prevents page creation. You'd *think* it would, but the documentation seems to imply it won't.
16:37:26 <fizzie> "Partial Prohibits the block target from making changes only to the specified pages and/or all pages in namespaces. All other pages can still be edited, new pages can be created, and files can be uploaded."
16:43:33 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134692&oldid=134691 * 5anz * (+34)
16:45:02 <esolangs> [[First.go]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134693&oldid=73612 * Ractangle * (+27)
16:48:12 <int-e> fizzie: I'd hope that the documentation is poorly worded.
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16:56:23 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134694&oldid=134662 * Gggfr * (+14) /* examples */
16:57:50 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134695&oldid=134694 * Gggfr * (+79) /* examples */
16:58:26 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134696&oldid=134695 * Gggfr * (+13) /* examples */
17:00:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Fizzie * changed block settings for [[User:Unname4798]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): repeatedly messing with the sandbox instructions, in a way that could confuse new users; repeatedly creating a misleading homoglyph variant of the sandbox
17:01:31 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134697&oldid=134696 * Gggfr * (+25)
17:01:47 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134698&oldid=134697 * Gggfr * (+5)
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17:02:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134699&oldid=134689 * Fizzie * (+1187) /* On sandbox */ new section
17:04:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Esolang:Sndb]]": As before: Unicode homoglyphs in page name intended to confuse; off-topic; the wiki already has an actual sandbox for edit tests
17:05:38 <fizzie> I used to think it was a bad thing that the control character filtering of the bot inadvertently removes also all non-ASCII printable characters, but maybe it's actually good, in that it's more obvious something odd is going on when it says "Sndb".
17:06:16 <fizzie> (I wrote it as `c < 32` and forgot the plain `char` type is signed on that platform.)
17:10:28 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134700&oldid=134603 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* General languages */ Sort
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17:17:25 <esolangs> [[( )]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134701&oldid=134698 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:19:42 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134702&oldid=134692 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) Categories
17:23:43 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134703&oldid=134606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+157) Categories
17:36:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134704&oldid=134644 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Remove a word which seems to have confused some people
17:39:52 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134705&oldid=134702 * 5anz * (+202)
17:42:59 <korvo> Thanks to ais523 and fizzie for being remarkably level-headed. I used to be this sort of insufferable teenager and I appreciated fairness from adults.
17:45:19 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134706&oldid=134705 * 5anz * (+28)
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17:50:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: alternately if you follow those diff links you can see that the "Page" and "View history" links go to an URL with percent escapse in the page title. if you really want esolangs to give useful info here, it should probably show those non-ASCII character escaped rather than just omit them, unless that makes the escaped page title too long, in which case it could show a pageid link like
17:50:30 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/?curid=19832
17:50:42 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134707&oldid=134665 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Stub, categories
17:52:08 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134708&oldid=134703 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) See also
17:54:29 <esolangs> [[Thue/Turn based battle game]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134709&oldid=134590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) Back
17:54:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134710&oldid=134699 * Unname4798 * (+0)
18:05:40 <int-e> fizzie: "The wiki is not a joke" is a great way to put it.
18:14:48 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134711&oldid=134706 * 5anz * (+393)
18:20:09 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134712&oldid=134701 * Gggfr * (+1)
18:22:28 <esolangs> [[95-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134713&oldid=134664 * Gggfr * (+0) /* examples */
18:25:08 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134714&oldid=134712 * Gggfr * (+1)
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18:36:31 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134715&oldid=134711 * 5anz * (+719)
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18:41:21 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134716&oldid=134714 * Gggfr * (+179)
18:43:50 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134717&oldid=134716 * Gggfr * (+62) /* examples */
18:44:12 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134718&oldid=134717 * Gggfr * (+37) /* examples */
18:50:43 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134719&oldid=134648 * Ractangle * (+91) /* Examples */
18:53:52 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134720&oldid=134718 * Gggfr * (+268)
18:54:38 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134721&oldid=134719 * Ractangle * (+72) /* Examples */
19:22:02 <fizzie> Fun fact: the whole message (colours and all) is generated over on the MediaWiki side, the https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds system has a special formatter class ("IRCColourfulRCFeedFormatter") specifically designed for broadcasting to an IRC channel.
19:23:27 <fizzie> (Though I could of course just swap to, say, the JSON format, and have the bot produce the message.)
19:25:06 <fizzie> Slightly surprised actually that nobody over on the Discord side has asked to have a similar feed.
19:27:44 <fizzie> (Well, maybe it's not that surprising, it is kinda spammy.)
19:37:13 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134722&oldid=134715 * 5anz * (+0) /* Numbers */
19:48:02 <int-e> Discord guilds can have several channels, so it would not be an issue?
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20:08:59 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134723&oldid=134722 * 5anz * (+1) /* IMP */
20:09:29 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134724 * Gggfr * (+1119) Created page with "'''?Q?''' is a esolang created in a afternoon by [[User:Yayimhere]]. === name === the name comes from the file format <code>.?Q?</code> which is a file thats compressed, typically by the SQ program === memory === memory is stored in a string initially set to the empty string
20:09:57 <b_jonas> interesting. how customizable is that? because I know Mediawiki has a feature to percent-encode the pagename in a template at least: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:PAGENAMEE_encoding#PAGENAMEE
20:11:06 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134725&oldid=133993 * Gggfr * (+57) /* */
20:14:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: Discord has a really crazy restrictive terms of service, and because of that you probably wouldn't want to bother making a feed bot there. and if someone who cares about Discord is determined to make such a bot, then they can probably do the easier part that queries the esowiki too without asking you.
20:16:12 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134726&oldid=134724 * Gggfr * (+1)
20:21:38 <esolangs> [[Bracket unary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134727 * Gggfr * (+241) Created page with "'''bracket unary''' is a type of unary proposed by [[User:Yayimhere]]. it works like this: * a number is represented in unary but for each ** there is a ( and for each * theres a ) for example 4 is (()) and 7 is ((()))) [[Category:Concepts]]"
20:22:30 <fizzie> Well, but the feed to the IRC is a push-based thing, not a pull-based one. But fair enough, yes, someone could have set up a thing that periodically checks for changes, and I probably wouldn't have noticed.
20:22:47 <fizzie> As for the IRCColourfulRCFeedFormatter, I don't think there's a single thing you can customize about it. Or that's not quite true: there's a single option, `add_interwiki_prefix`, which controls whether "the titles should be prefixed with the first entry in the $wgLocalInterwikis array (or the value of $wgLocalInterwiki, if set)".
20:30:07 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134728&oldid=134723 * 5anz * (+41)
20:56:53 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134729&oldid=113366 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Cat */
20:57:04 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134730&oldid=134725 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2)
20:57:59 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134731&oldid=134730 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
21:16:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134732&oldid=134442 * Tommyaweosme * (+430)
21:18:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134733&oldid=134732 * Tommyaweosme * (+180) /* Delete blank pages */
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23:44:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134734&oldid=123184 * Tommyaweosme * (+258)
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00:41:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134735&oldid=134733 * Ais523 * (-430) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134732|134732]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]): trolling
00:43:11 <ais523> so I made something of a breakthrough wrt Hydra and Antihydra: I still have no idea how to prove they don't halt, but at least I figured out how to simulate them efficiently
00:43:13 <ais523> the details are at https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Consistent_Collatz
00:44:59 <ais523> I am not sure whether "can be simulated in quasilinear time" implies much about the computational class, though
00:48:11 <int-e> ais523: hmm on https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Hydra are the A(,) things supposed to be C(,) things?
00:48:14 <ais523> ah, it looks like the same algorithm's been discovered already
00:48:32 <ais523> int-e: no, because the notation is showing something else from what you expect
00:48:43 <ais523> it's talking about the state of the tape
00:48:53 <ais523> but I think A goes back to C quickly
00:49:57 <ais523> that said, I don't fully understand it myself
00:50:13 <ais523> so it might just be wrong after all, or perhaps expressing a useless distinction
00:53:55 <int-e> Oh the notation is from [1].
00:54:52 <int-e> So yeah, I think those A() should be C().
01:24:15 <ais523> <fizzie> I'd look for an extension that does something like domain name salespersons do when they prevent you from creating misleading domain names using homoglyph trickery ← I think AbuseFilter (which we already have installed) can probably do that, but I've never needed to use the relevant part of the functionality so I'm not sure how it works, and esowiki seems a likely place for false positives
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02:03:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:UTC+8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134736&oldid=133537 * PrySigneToFry * (+547) /* New Example */ new section
02:04:19 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134737 * Tommyaweosme * (+374) Created page with "ME WANTING TO BLOCK AIS523 FROM MY PAGES IS NOT "TROLLING" ~~~ WAS BLOCKED FOR NO REASON FROM THE SANDBOX unname4798 WAS BLOCKED FOR NO REASON FROM THE SANDBOX MAYBE WE WILL MOVE TO LIFEWIKI??? YOUR FUNNI SITE WILL GET LESS GOOGLE R
02:04:58 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134738&oldid=134627 * Tommyaweosme * (-495)
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02:07:55 <ais523> err, should I just delete that rant-filled user subpage?
02:08:23 <ais523> my first reaction was to – the user in question is likely to regret having posted it in a few months or years – but I am not sure what to put in the deletion message
02:24:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Genesis]]": cross-namespace redirect left over after a page was moved to the correct namespace
02:25:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:ANGL]]": cross-namespace redirect left over after a page was moved to the correct namespace
02:26:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Users]]": blank page, has never had content
02:27:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Sandbox/ Trashcan]]": unused, and not useful, Sandbox subpage
02:28:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Sandbox/Sandbin]]": apparently an abandoned attempt to recreate a "preservation of test edits" sandbox, which is inappropriate for this site
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03:36:00 <Hooloovoo> I'm wondering if a lot of pages ought to be deleted. I was browsing the wiki on my phone last night and... wow, there are a lot of pages that are completely unoriginal, or ideas that never went anywhere
03:39:16 <ais523> Hooloovoo: a) I agree that lots of the pages are useless, but b) we intentionally have very low standards for esolangs to be mentioned on the site, because it was originally created as a way to save esolang-related content that was being deleted from Wikipedia (although the content couldn't actually be copied over due to license incompatibility, we rewrote it)
03:40:25 <ais523> I have wondered if we should have some sort of award for the less useful pages, but it would be hard to objectively define
03:41:07 <Hooloovoo> that makes sense. it's just hard to navigate (as a novice who's been around at least 10 years) to anything real
03:41:22 <ais523> e.g. occasionally I create an esolang in 30 seconds; one of those was useful enough to provoke someone else's thoughts, and one got used for a fairly important TCness proof, although most esolangs created that quickly are terrible
03:42:05 <ais523> part of the problem is that there are quite a lot of esolangs that aren't individually really bad, they're just too similar to each other and there isn't much benefit to them all existing
03:43:19 <ais523> for example, something like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Kipple is completely unremarkable nowadays and you can find tons of languages like it and wouldn't have much of a reason to use it
03:43:27 <ais523> but then you look at the date, and realise that there was nothing like it at the time
03:44:08 <ais523> so it got quite a lot of attention simply because it had less competition – and for all I know, it may have been ground-breaking because there weren't that many similar languages back then
03:45:32 <Hooloovoo> precedence definitely makes sense, especially when it probably *was* groundbreaking at the time ( is there usenet/irc logs from that time?)
03:48:16 <Hooloovoo> for some reason I was going through category:thematic and there were a lot of pretty hypothetical languages, no implementation in sight
03:49:16 <esolangs> [[Hq9+8F]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134739 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+663) Created page with "hq9+8F is hq9+ but different: by ~~~~ <code>h</code> retains the same. <code>q</code> sets the accumulator to this code. <code>+</code> increments the accumulator by 2. <code></code> prints "1" forever <code>f</
03:49:59 <Hooloovoo> like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Chess or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Darmok
03:50:25 <Hooloovoo> (to be fair there may be some selection bias on hard-to-implement-sounding-names)
03:51:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134740&oldid=134737 * Unname4798 * (+165) Use my signature
03:51:52 <ais523> Hooloovoo: we did actually save the IRC logs from the very early history of the channel: https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/all.html
03:53:30 <ais523> I don't think Usenet ever got used that much, except for INTERCAL (which traditionally gets released over Usenet and some discussion has happened there too)
03:53:51 <ais523> there was a webforum, but it got overrun with spam quite quickly, people preferred to use the wiki instead
03:54:26 <esolangs> [[User:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134741&oldid=132072 * Unname4798 * (-8487) removed the Grasp section, since that was outdated
03:54:53 <Hooloovoo> was kind of hoping for a tar/whatever archive link at the bottom of that page
03:55:15 <Hooloovoo> I can wget -r like anyone else but it seems wasteful
03:56:01 <ais523> looks like there are links for every month
03:56:07 <ais523> but I'm not sure there are combined links for more than that
03:56:34 <ais523> recursive wget is a bad idea because you'll get every month both combined and separately, and in three different formats; probably it's better to do an URL enumeration
03:57:29 <ais523> it's worth noting that some of the early history of the channel was very immature – I am wondering if the same phenomenon is playing out on Discord nowadays
03:58:44 <Hooloovoo> also, yeah, I first was on another IRC and saw stuff from another young dude in the old quote database or whatever it was called
03:59:37 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134742&oldid=134740 * Unname4798 * (-39) Combine two sentences together
03:59:58 <Hooloovoo> IRC has lost the whole feeling of new people in all but a few channels (mostly bridged to discord/other services now)
04:02:07 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134743&oldid=134742 * Unname4798 * (+291) answer to tommyaweosme's question
04:02:08 <ais523> it's almost like the Eternal September is ending
04:03:18 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134744&oldid=134743 * Unname4798 * (+16)
04:03:27 <ais523> but it's unlikely that internets will ever be able to go back to the way that they were prior to that
04:04:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134745&oldid=134744 * Unname4798 * (+20)
04:04:10 <ais523> (given that modern language struggles with even expressing the idea that there might be more than one network of networks, with none of them sufficiently important to be "the" internet…)
04:05:38 <ais523> ooh, Wikipedia suggests "internetwork" as a term to use in the general case, that helps
04:08:42 <ais523> btw, to explain this whole "trolling" thing: it generally isn't considered a serious request to ask an admin to block themself, you would normally at least ask a different admin
04:09:23 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134746&oldid=134707 * Unname4798 * (+66) Examples: cat
04:09:50 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134747&oldid=134746 * Unname4798 * (-7)
04:20:37 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134748&oldid=134738 * Unname4798 * (-40) fix typos
04:21:28 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134749&oldid=134748 * Unname4798 * (+4)
04:22:04 <ais523> ugh, I really don't want to have to put a blanket ban on users editing each other's user pages
04:22:36 <ais523> it would help to some extent at times like this – but it would also cause a number of issues, e.g. people wouldn't be able to edit out objectionable content without asking an admin, and there are some valid uses for userpage collaboration
04:36:41 <Hooloovoo> I agree, a blanket ban would probably be harmful. probably best to just ban/revert the problematic users
04:37:15 <Hooloovoo> (if that's at all feasable, but I think mediawiki has pretty good support for that kind of thing)
04:39:49 <ais523> lots of users seem to take it personally when you try to prevent them making unconstructive edits, though
04:40:14 <ais523> it can cause less friction to have a general rule for the whole wiki (and if a whole range of users are doing the same problematic things…)
04:40:32 <ais523> but I don't think I can teach the wiki software to work out whether a user-editing-another-user's-page is good or bad
04:44:53 <Hooloovoo> as a lurker on, like several wikis.... I can't provide any meaningful feedback
04:46:22 <korvo> Hooloovoo: Still reading backlog, but have you heard of "inclusionism" and "deletionism"? Speaking purely for myself, I only edit inclusionist wikis, and it's the main reason I'm no longer active on English WP.
04:46:26 <ais523> it's OK – most of the trouble is being caused by me trying hard to not ban people
04:48:18 <ais523> korvo: nowadays, I actually suspect the divide on enwiki is more sharply between "notability is inherent, non-notable things should be deleted" and "inclusion standards are determined by sourcing, and are probably more important than notability, although notability's very correlated with sourcing"
04:48:20 <ais523> I'm in the latter camp
04:50:05 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, it's a whole Overton window. I left when they forcibly disbanded Esperanza; it's only gotten worse since then.
04:51:18 <ais523> to be fair, Esperanaza probably needed disbanding by that point; it's actually quite reminiscent of the sandbox wars, except that Esperanza had a more reasonable initial purpose
04:51:52 <ais523> but ended up turning into something of a cross between a social media organization and a really complicated organisational hierarchy that existed for no apparent reason
04:52:00 <ais523> and lost sight of why it was created in the first place
04:52:04 <korvo> Hooloovoo: One useful thing we can do is categorize. Categories like "Implemented" or "Turing-complete" or "Proofs" let us have a modicum of curation. Part of the current situation is due to Category:Proofs misuse.
04:53:30 <korvo> ais523: I guess that's a way of looking at it. From my POV, there were many low-level editing tasks that just needed us to attract the right undergrads or high-schoolers with the right amount of hyperfocus. Esperanza was a useful way to recruit them.
04:53:32 <Hooloovoo> well, and plus a bunch of stuff is trivially provable to.... something at least
04:53:32 <ais523> I do feel like Wikipedia's got more inclusionist over time (except with respect to things that people are being paid to advertise on Wikipedia, they've become less and less tolerant of that as time goes on)
04:53:55 <korvo> e.g. rewriting content from Mathworld or that one Catholic encyclopedia, in the old times.
04:54:22 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134750&oldid=134726 * Gggfr * (+35) /* examples */
04:54:26 <ais523> like, you've never been able to write unsourced articles (within the rules, at least) – and the converse is becoming more and more true over time (i.e. if the article *is* properly sourced you can write it)
04:56:09 <ais523> although there's lots of grey area, such as future solar eclipses (there are plenty of sources saying an eclipse will happen on such and such a future date, but as it hasn't happened yet, there's nothing you can usefully say about it…)
04:56:14 <Hooloovoo> wasn't the mathworld guy a major contributor on the english wikipedia? or am I thinking of someone else?
04:56:54 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134751&oldid=134750 * Gggfr * (+4) /* examples */
04:57:45 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134752&oldid=134751 * Gggfr * (+4) /* examples */
04:57:47 <korvo> I'll concede that webcomics, which IIRC were the biggest debate topic regarding notability and sourcing and admins going on mass-deletion sprees -- are much better-represented than they used to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_Hill exists now.
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04:59:08 <korvo> Hooloovoo: The licensing of their articles permits young wikis to more-or-less copy their content. That one guy (Weisstein?) just happened to write a lot of the originals.
04:59:11 <Hooloovoo> I do know that Weisstein did some sort of conway's life thing. so there's that
04:59:57 <korvo> When I worked on that project, we had a strict rephrasing policy in order to conform with WP's view of maths, which is much broader and more holistic than Mathworld's.
05:00:14 <Hooloovoo> webcomics are still pretty spotty, especially for weird ones that wouldn't get mainstream press, ever
05:03:06 <Hooloovoo> (including the second-longest runner. welp)
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05:19:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134753&oldid=134510 * Gggfr * (+475) /* Huh? */
05:34:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134754&oldid=134612 * Gggfr * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
05:38:30 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134755&oldid=134752 * Gggfr * (+118)
05:39:15 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134756&oldid=134755 * Gggfr * (+41) /* syntax */
05:46:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134757&oldid=134753 * Ais523 * (+477) /* is this a true disan count? */ it isn't
06:02:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Gggfr * uploaded "[[File:?Q? esolang logo.jpg]]"
06:02:44 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134759&oldid=134756 * Gggfr * (+61)
06:22:48 <esolangs> [[Hq9+8F]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134760&oldid=134739 * Unname4798 * (+7)
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06:59:14 <esolangs> [[;;;]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134761 * Gggfr * (+600) Created page with "''';;;''' is a made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == memory == memory is stored in a infinite tape holding 8 bit numbers. == syntax == these are the commands: {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! symbol !! command |- | <code>;</code> || if current cell is 0 go left on tape. else
07:23:08 <esolangs> [[W)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134762 * Gggfr * (+1138) Created page with "{{WIP}} {{Lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=w>}} '''w>''' is a esolang where the only way to store data is by creating pointers and changing commands. its self modifying. it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. and yes w> can have multiple IPs. the pointer starts in the upper left
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07:52:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134763&oldid=134704 * Ducbadatchem * (+167) /* Introductions */
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08:29:12 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134764&oldid=130905 * Ractangle * (+39)
08:35:02 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134765&oldid=131868 * Ractangle * (-18) /* Python3 (without the ^) */
08:41:36 <int-e> fungot: how do you feel about socks?
08:41:36 <fungot> int-e: this edit isn't going through." ( forgot who said it?))
08:42:01 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134766&oldid=134759 * Xff * (+36) /* syntax */
08:45:35 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134767&oldid=133382 * Ractangle * (+49) /* Commands */
08:47:02 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134768&oldid=134766 * Xff * (+52) /* syntax */
08:50:53 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134769&oldid=134768 * Xff * (+493) /* examples */
08:51:51 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134770&oldid=134769 * Xff * (+30) /* computational class */
08:52:06 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134771&oldid=134770 * Xff * (+13) /* computational class */
08:55:41 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134772&oldid=134771 * Xff * (+39)
08:55:53 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134773&oldid=134772 * Xff * (+1)
08:57:21 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134774&oldid=134773 * Xff * (+125) /* computational class */
08:58:17 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134775&oldid=134774 * Xff * (+15) /* computational class */
09:02:16 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134776&oldid=134775 * Xff * (-3) /* computational class */
09:17:02 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134777&oldid=134776 * Xff * (+430) /* computational class */
09:35:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134778&oldid=134721 * Ractangle * (+58) /* Class and Variables */
09:36:55 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134779&oldid=134778 * Ractangle * (-88) /* Commands */
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09:49:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134780&oldid=134779 * Ractangle * (+452) /* Classes, Variables and Functions! */
09:50:14 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134781&oldid=134780 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Hello World */
10:00:10 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134782&oldid=134781 * Ractangle * (+63) /* Examples */
10:01:23 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134783&oldid=134782 * Ractangle * (+1) /* 99 bottles of beer */
10:05:14 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134784&oldid=131581 * Ractangle * (+616) /* FunctionsFTW */
10:05:24 <b_jonas> for webcomics, though it doesn't give descriptions, there's a master list at https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?272481 that I occasionally reference to find new links to webcomnics that move to a new URL without redirect every three years
10:05:38 <b_jonas> of course some webcomics just drop off the internet, in which case it doesn't help
10:07:41 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134785&oldid=134777 * Xff * (+221) /* computational class */
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10:08:22 <b_jonas> "Wikipedia's got more inclusionist over time" => that is quite natural, both because the computer hardware improves and can more easily store and serve larger numbers of articles, and because it feels weird to include articles about obscure topics in a smaller encyclopedia when most topics more important than that aren't documented, but less weird in a large encyclopedia where most of the similarly
10:08:28 <b_jonas> obscure topics are already covered
10:08:42 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134786&oldid=134785 * Xff * (+137) /* computational class */
10:10:19 <esolangs> [[Permission denied]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134787&oldid=128661 * Xff * (+36) /* Signs */
10:11:48 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134788&oldid=133737 * Ractangle * (+117) /* Gofe */
10:12:05 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134789&oldid=134788 * Ractangle * (+2) /* =G# */
10:16:41 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134790&oldid=134003 * Ractangle * (-21) /* SPIKE */
10:17:26 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134791&oldid=133132 * Ractangle * (-12) /* Interpriter test cases */
10:18:12 <esolangs> [[File:?Q? esolang logo.jpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134792&oldid=134758 * Xff * (+4)
10:18:46 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134793&oldid=134791 * Ractangle * (-199) /* Deadfish implementation */
10:19:26 <b_jonas> lots of non-notable esolangs => perhaps I should read random articles and make a longer curated list of not completely boring pages under https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Incomplete_list_of_some_interesting_or_notable_esolangs
10:20:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134794&oldid=134757 * Xff * (+105) /* is this a true disan count? */
10:20:54 <int-e> let's add up- and downvoting to the pages; surely there's nothing that can go wrong with that
10:20:56 <b_jonas> "occasionally I create an esolang in 30 seconds" => that can happen for an intermediate language that is not useful by itself, but useful to understand another esolang, like to compile to or from that intermediate language to another esolang to understand it
10:21:11 <b_jonas> "award for the less useful pages" => sorry what?
10:22:03 * int-e is probably missing context
10:26:47 <b_jonas> a hard part of making a long curated list of non-boring pages (or appproval votes or whatever) is how to do it such that users don't get personally insulted when their new totally awesome creation doesn't make the list
10:27:39 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134795&oldid=133991 * Xff * (+23) /* X strike */
10:28:44 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134796&oldid=133127 * Ractangle * (+259)
10:28:53 <b_jonas> plus it can't just be everyone giving approval votes, because then it turns to a eurovision context where whoever can get the largest number of their school friends to register on the wiki has the highest number of upvotes
10:29:25 <b_jonas> so I should probably just make a list of pages that I approve, and also look at lists by some other users that I know
10:29:50 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134797&oldid=134796 * Ractangle * (-170) /* Commands */
10:30:08 <b_jonas> I should start by going through the pages that I have edited
10:30:10 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134798&oldid=134797 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Commands */
10:30:17 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134799&oldid=134786 * Xff * (+161)
10:30:26 <b_jonas> that would make it very obvious that it's my personal selection, since I created a lot of those
10:31:05 <int-e> it's your user page; people *should* understand
10:31:47 <esolangs> [[Constant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134800&oldid=131741 * Ractangle * (-22)
10:37:13 <b_jonas> it'd be a subpage, but sure
10:38:13 <b_jonas> but if it grows large enough that it's actually useful to readers other than me then people will be insulted when I omit a page that I have seen
10:38:34 <esolangs> [[Bracket unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134801&oldid=134727 * Xff * (+1)
10:42:47 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134802&oldid=134728 * 5anz * (+42)
10:47:08 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134803&oldid=133598 * B jonas * (+44) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
10:48:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:?Q?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134804 * Xff * (+115) Created page with "is the proof of turing completeness correct? --~~~~"
10:54:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:AsciiDots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134805&oldid=100413 * 5anz * (+92) /* Why are there no basics? */ new section
10:54:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:AsciiDots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134806&oldid=134805 * 5anz * (+72) /* Why are there no basics? */
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10:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134807&oldid=134803 * B jonas * (+74) /* Todo */
11:01:45 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134808&oldid=134783 * Ractangle * (+277) /* Examples */
11:02:30 <HackEso> In the Beginning was Befunge. And Befunge begot Fungot. And Fungot got Taneb. And Taneb tanebvented All the Things. Fnord.
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11:06:17 <HackEso> In the Famous Mountains of York, Taneb makes dew.
11:07:17 <HackEso> Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn't have any features, but you're smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua.
11:07:22 <b_jonas> I forgot a lot of this lore about Taneb
11:08:07 <HackEso> Noooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
11:10:02 <HackEso> The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon.
11:26:01 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134809 * 5anz * (+1215) Created page with "Hello, my name's 5anz, well, it's not my REAL name, but it's who I'd rather be known as online! So, uh... here's some stuff about me, I guess. I might add more to this page. == Esolang I made == I made [[B i n a r y]], an Esolang inspired by [[Whitespace]], just smalle
11:30:16 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134810&oldid=134799 * PkmnQ * (+2) /* tips */
11:31:43 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134811&oldid=134809 * 5anz * (-2) /* External recourses */
11:35:34 <esolangs> [[0 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134812&oldid=130487 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Python3 */
11:37:44 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134813&oldid=134764 * Ractangle * (+9)
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11:51:50 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134814&oldid=134808 * Ractangle * (+182) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:53:05 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134815&oldid=134814 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:59:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Grasp examples cat.jpg]]": unused, and conforming to an earlier (now nonexistent) draft of the language
12:00:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Grasp examples call.jpg]]": unused, and conforming to an earlier (now nonexistent) draft of the language
12:00:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Grasp examples append.jpg]]": unused, and conforming to an earlier (now nonexistent) draft of the language
12:03:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134816&oldid=134815 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Deadfish implementation */
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12:06:08 <fizzie> fungot: "this edit isn't going through"? Are *you* messing with the wiki too?
12:06:08 <fungot> fizzie: ( and whatever temporary data are stored there). but it is version 0.0.1 after all :) ( quantum physics)
12:07:37 <fizzie> Plot twist: turns out fungot's actually behind the whole "sandbox war".
12:07:37 <fungot> fizzie: mov ( pointer, fixnum, flonum, fnord, m-, fnord,
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12:25:37 <esolangs> [[x.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134817 * Xff * (+630) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''x.''' is a version of [[lambda calculus]] created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. it's a two instruction esolang == how it works == x. works like [[lambda calculus]](written a little differently) but the only thing you can do is the <code>x.</code> hence the name. its wri
12:29:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134818&oldid=134734 * Fizzie * (+941) /* unblocking me and unname4798 from esolang:sandbox */ respond
12:30:07 <fizzie> Thought I shouldn't just leave it unanswered, not that it'll help.
12:32:54 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134819&oldid=134817 * Xff * (+124) /* examples */
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12:34:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134820&oldid=134763 * Krolkrol * (+81) /* Introductions */
12:34:49 <esolangs> [[Cat Program (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134821&oldid=115863 * Krolkrol * (+69) /* Interpreters */
12:36:22 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134822&oldid=134819 * Xff * (+280) /* how it works */
12:37:33 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134823&oldid=134822 * Xff * (+1)
12:38:25 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134824&oldid=134823 * Xff * (+35) /* a simple example */
12:40:07 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134825&oldid=108671 * B jonas * (+50) /* Babbage's analytical engine */
12:42:18 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134826&oldid=134824 * Xff * (+223) /* how it works */
12:42:27 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134827&oldid=134826 * Xff * (-2) /* a simple example */
12:43:15 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134828&oldid=134827 * Xff * (+115) /* how it works */
12:43:46 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134829&oldid=134828 * Xff * (+8)
12:44:45 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134830&oldid=134829 * Xff * (+73)
12:45:08 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134831&oldid=134830 * Xff * (-2)
12:49:14 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134832&oldid=134831 * Xff * (+35) /* examples */
12:49:34 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134833&oldid=134832 * Xff * (-1) /* a simple example */
12:50:19 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134834&oldid=134833 * Xff * (+20) /* a simple example */
12:50:59 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134835&oldid=134834 * Xff * (+11) /* examples */
12:52:16 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134836&oldid=134835 * Xff * (+0) /* examples */
12:56:20 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134837&oldid=134836 * Xff * (+41) /* examples */
12:56:53 <esolangs> [[Cat Program (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134838&oldid=134821 * Krolkrol * (+20) /* Python */
13:01:57 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134839 * Ducbadatchem * (+2174) Stub, needed continuation
13:03:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134840 * Xff * (+174) Created page with "im pretty sure this is SK combinator calculus but im not sure: xyz.((xz)(yz)) x.(y.(z.((x.z.)(y.z.)))) (S) and xy.x x.(y.(x.)) (K)"
13:03:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134841&oldid=134840 * Xff * (+71)
13:03:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134842&oldid=134841 * Xff * (+1)
13:07:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134843&oldid=134842 * Xff * (+97)
13:08:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134844&oldid=134843 * Xff * (-343) Blanked the page
13:09:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134845&oldid=57619 * Xff * (+380) /* Keywords */
13:10:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134846&oldid=134844 * Xff * (+13)
13:16:01 <b_jonas> do you have a link for that thing that compiler for programming x86 with only jump instructions?
13:19:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134847&oldid=134039 * PrySigneToFry * (+511) /* UTC+8 */ new section
13:25:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/TEST2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134848&oldid=134534 * PrySigneToFry * (+297)
13:26:54 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134849&oldid=134367 * PrySigneToFry * (+393)
13:28:44 <esolangs> [[Isomorphism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134850&oldid=131114 * PrySigneToFry * (+111)
13:35:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134851&oldid=134735 * PrySigneToFry * (+647) /* Sandbox page */ new section
13:39:04 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/About more Categories]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134852&oldid=129205 * PrySigneToFry * (+129)
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13:46:01 <esolangs> [[User:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134853&oldid=125857 * PrySigneToFry * (+11) My smallest edit
13:46:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134854&oldid=134818 * Unname4798 * (+313)
13:48:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134855&oldid=134854 * Unname4798 * (+5)
13:48:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134856&oldid=134855 * Unname4798 * (-1)
13:50:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134857&oldid=134749 * PrySigneToFry * (+460) I think I need to place more language of this information on it. But my object isn't let the whole universe to know this user is banned.
13:54:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134858&oldid=134851 * PrySigneToFry * (+553) /* A question for you. */ new section
13:55:23 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134859&oldid=134849 * PrySigneToFry * (+58)
13:56:19 <esolangs> [[Viktor T. Toth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134860 * B jonas * (+434) Created page with "'''Viktor T. Toth''' is a physicist and self-described programmer with a screwdriver. He worked on non-esoteric programming including developing libraries for Macsyma (the computer algebra system). He created the following esoteric languages: * [[W (Viktor T. To
13:56:47 <esolangs> [[W (Viktor T. Toth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134861&oldid=109517 * B jonas * (+4)
13:56:53 <esolangs> [[Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134862&oldid=109504 * B jonas * (+4)
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14:20:32 <Hooloovoo> b_jonas, I'm not familiar with the jump-only version, but https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator is MOV-only
14:46:05 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134863 * PrySigneToFry * (+2865) Created page with "PSTFChatGPT == == #xio: 0 #g: 1 #mio: 1 #hu: #png: 0 #j: #wng: #h..."
14:46:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134864 * PrySigneToFry * (+35) Created page with "This article is written in Chinese."
14:47:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134865&oldid=134754 * PrySigneToFry * (+10)
14:48:00 <b_jonas> Hooloovoo: oh, that must be it, thank you
14:48:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134866&oldid=134857 * Unname4798 * (+14)
14:48:46 <b_jonas> our article on it is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mov
14:49:06 <esolangs> [[Movfuscator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134867 * B jonas * (+17) Redirected page to [[Mov]]
14:49:14 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134868&oldid=134866 * Unname4798 * (-33)
14:49:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134869&oldid=134858 * PrySigneToFry * (+492)
15:06:57 <b_jonas> cow (copy on write) and interrupt both have meanings in CS, so I wonder if there could be an esoteric language called interrupting cow
15:08:22 <korvo> Sure. Put thunks into each COW structure. Whenever a COW is copied and a thunk is reached, pause the current copy and start another one. It's one way of looking at graph reduction. I'm not sure how much sharing is achieved by default, though.
15:09:19 <korvo> But I imagine you could make something gnarlier by requiring some sort of interrupt vector, which itself is a COW structure, to be registered to each thunk.
15:21:58 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134870&oldid=134816 * Ractangle * (+146) /* Variables */
15:22:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134871&oldid=134870 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Cat program */
15:22:40 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134872&oldid=134871 * Ractangle * (+4) /* A+B problem */
15:23:21 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134873&oldid=134872 * Ractangle * (+0) /* A+B problem */
15:24:15 <esolangs> [[Acme::Bleach]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134874 * B jonas * (+768) Created page with "'''Acme::Bleach''' is a language that executes arbitrary perl code disguised in an encoding consisting of only whitespace characters. Each character of the perl source code is encoded in eight bits, the bits represented in the Acme::Bleach source code by space and
15:24:47 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134875&oldid=132686 * B jonas * (-69)
15:26:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134876&oldid=134873 * Ractangle * (+27)
15:27:54 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134877&oldid=134523 * Ractangle * (+453) /* gar */
15:29:10 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134878&oldid=134784 * Ractangle * (+10) /* G# */
15:30:38 <esolangs> [[Empty Program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134879&oldid=133755 * Ractangle * (+87) /* C Mono */
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15:32:04 <esolangs> [[Hodor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134880&oldid=100389 * B jonas * (-9) it's a fricking disambiguation page. it should contain not much more than links to pages that could be named like that.
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15:42:50 <esolangs> [[Hodor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134881&oldid=134880 * Unname4798 * (+12) add disambig template
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15:46:48 <b_jonas> WysiScript is a language where the source code is formatted text, and it only cares about the formats, not the text itself. That's great, and had to be done once, except… it's from 2017, which sounds way too late. Is there an esolang that did this earlier? I know there's the non-esoteric ColorForth that uses color instead of punctutation, but that still cares about the text too, as in it uses
15:46:54 <b_jonas> identifiers made of letter and numbers like some normal language.
15:47:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134882&oldid=134710 * Unname4798 * (-29)
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15:51:35 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134883&oldid=132687 * Ractangle * (+80) /* Gammaplex */
15:53:28 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134884&oldid=134789 * Ractangle * (+4) /* G# */
15:53:48 <esolangs> [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134885&oldid=124077 * B jonas * (+0)
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15:55:13 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134886&oldid=134654 * PkmnQ * (+130) /* Added commands */
15:55:36 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134887&oldid=134731 * Ractangle * (+199) /* Gaot++ */
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15:59:17 <b_jonas> cpressey has at least three cheese-oriented languages (Emmental, Mascarpone, SMETANA). do there exist cheese-oriented languages that weren't created by cpressey?
16:03:24 <esolangs> [[Lawrence J. Krakauer's decimal computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134888&oldid=119408 * B jonas * (-17) no need for wayback
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16:12:28 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134889&oldid=134887 * Ractangle * (-69) /* Postrado */
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16:15:33 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134890&oldid=131585 * B jonas * (+363)
16:19:49 <esolangs> [[X vs. Y]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134891 * Xff * (+599) Created page with "'''X vs. Y''' is a very simple esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] == memory == memory is stored in variables. they are defined like this: x y this sats x to the signed binary number y == syntax == {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! symbol !! written !! description |- | <c
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16:33:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134892&oldid=134868 * Ais523 * (-405) revert to the last version that was created by the user this page was about if a userpage is complying with the rules, it should be left in a state that matches the user's intent
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16:34:45 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/List]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134893 * B jonas * (+13186) Created page with "This is a list of some esoteric languages and other pages on this wiki, curated personally by me [[User:b_jonas]], with notes on them for myself. The list is in some semblance of order with similar or related languages sometimes close to each other. I shoul
16:35:11 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134894&oldid=134807 * B jonas * (+24) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
16:39:14 <b_jonas> I started the list, but I haven't done any extra browsing for now, just added a lot of the pages that were already either in https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Incomplete_list_of_some_interesting_or_notable_esolangs or that I have edited
16:41:34 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134895&oldid=134894 * B jonas * (+93) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
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16:55:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134896&oldid=134629 * Unname4798 * (+68)
17:01:24 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134897&oldid=134795 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Sort
17:02:35 <int-e> wtf is that Unname4798 / Tommyaweosme roleplay
17:04:17 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134898&oldid=134839 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
17:04:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134899&oldid=134896 * Unname4798 * (+259)
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17:15:12 <ais523> oh no – I typoed an URL and diffed two unrelated pages, and now I'm worried the bots will figure out how to do that and substantially increase the n in their O(n²) reads of the wiki
17:16:40 <esolangs> [[X vs. Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134900&oldid=134891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
17:18:22 <esolangs> [[Acme::Bleach]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134901&oldid=134874 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Link, categories
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17:23:47 <ais523> int-e: I get the impression that a) they know each other offwiki, and b) Unname4798 is making changes to userpages which they believe the owning user would approve of, but is likely to be mistaken
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17:27:34 <esolangs> [[x.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134902&oldid=134837 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) Categories
17:28:46 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134903&oldid=134813 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) Categories
17:30:01 <drwiz> ais523: lol! that guy has an enemies list. is this for real?
17:31:14 <esolangs> [[W)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134904&oldid=134762 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) Categories
17:31:28 <int-e> We had a bit of edit-warring over the sandbox. The "enemies" are admins who intervened.
17:32:02 <ais523> it feels like there have always been a few immature people in the esolang community
17:32:14 <ais523> they grow up and become more mature, but then new immature people join
17:32:23 <drwiz> can't you just the ban the user? this type of stuff is frankly very silly in an otherwise wonderful wiki
17:32:26 <int-e> So... it's kind of real. It's anybody's guess how serious it really is... and how much of this is trolling born out of boredom.
17:32:43 <esolangs> [[;;;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134905&oldid=134761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Categories
17:32:44 <int-e> and yeah immaturity
17:33:46 <ais523> most of the community is great and most people don't really cause any drama – the problem is that the people who *do* cause drama cause a disproportionate amount of admin work and show up disproportionately on recent changes
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17:34:30 <esolangs> [[Hq9+8F]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134906&oldid=134760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) Categories
17:34:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134907&oldid=133733 * Unname4798 * (+91) Proof that 1=2 (joke)
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17:36:29 <ais523> and yes, it would be possible to ban all the drama-causing users, but I tend to prefer to avoid banning people if possible unless they have no useful contributions
17:38:10 <esolangs> [[Every-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134908&oldid=134903 * Unname4798 * (+125)
17:38:38 <b_jonas> I mean I'm edit-warring too, removing the non-constructive stub tags that PythonShellDebugWindow is spamming everywhere
17:39:32 <ais523> that's just reverting, the edit has to be done or reverted twice to become a war
17:39:58 <APic> Absolutely not difficult to prove that 1=2 with the „correct“ Axioms and/or prerequisite Assumptions
17:41:03 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:41:23 <ais523> > { let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x }
17:41:24 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘{’
17:41:32 <ais523> > let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x
17:41:33 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:11: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:41:39 <ais523> @eval { let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x }
17:42:04 <b_jonas> they're annoying me, this is not an encylopedia that is trying to be an all-in-one reference work you put on your shelves, having good documentation off-site and a link from this site usually means a better documented language than the nonsense "language" that new users create a lot of
17:42:05 <ais523> looks like I don't remember how to do that trick in Haskell any more
17:42:36 <b_jonas> hasn't haskell changed n+k patterns? oh wait, you don't have + anywhere here
17:42:40 <ais523> b_jonas: fwiw, I think {{stub}} on an article that is only an external link is correct – the page could be improved by expanding it with more information
17:43:21 <b_jonas> yeah, though expanding non-stub pages like [[INTERCAL]] would be much more useful
17:43:28 <APic> We can even gödelize countably (and thus also uncountably) infinitely many of those Equations into natural Numbers.
17:43:42 <APic> Welcome to Hilbert's IRC-Channel!
17:43:54 <ais523> at some point I need to get around to documenting Jelly on the wiki
17:44:08 <ais523> although it's quite difficult as I don't fully understand what all the commands do (even though there's documentation)
17:44:51 <int-e> > let 1 = 2 where 2 = 3 in 1
17:44:52 <b_jonas> @run { let x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; x }
17:44:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘{’
17:45:19 <b_jonas> @run let { x = 1 = 2 where 1 = 2; } in x
17:45:19 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:45:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:45:25 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah, n+k patterns are not part of Haskell 2010. GHC still supports them
17:45:30 <int-e> ais523: that's not an expression
17:45:38 <ais523> > let (=) 1 2 = True in 1 = 2
17:45:40 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: error: parse error on input ‘=’
17:45:51 <int-e> and = is syntax, not an infix operator
17:46:02 <APic> Probably easier in Rust?
17:46:03 <ais523> > let (==) 1 2 = True in 1 == 2
17:46:29 <APic> Where You can allegedly directly modify the Program-Trees inside the Program itself?
17:48:04 <ais523> although Rust does allow you to run parse tree modification code at compile time, this only happens in places where you've specifically annotated it should happen
17:48:15 <ais523> also I don't think we have a rust compiler bot on the channel
17:48:45 <APic> Never messed with Rust yet
17:49:10 <APic> At the Moment i try https://github.com/jl2/nim get to work
17:49:12 <int-e> Rust macros are probably the ugliest part of the language.
17:49:37 <int-e> The thing they operate on is more of a token stream than a syntax tree.
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17:50:26 <b_jonas> it's funnier than that, they take token streams as input but have to output valid syntax
17:50:32 <int-e> So you get auxiliary crates like https://docs.rs/syn/latest/syn/ to fill the gap.
17:51:09 <b_jonas> but that's only one kind of macros, there's another kind that APic was talking about
17:51:29 <int-e> I haven't felt the need for macros yet, tbh... my Rust coding is still mostly at the toy level.
17:51:45 <ais523> APic: here's how you can do the 1==2 in Rust: https://tio.run/##XYyxCsMgFEV3v@IaMvigSzMm2F8Jr8FCwJj0qZP47TauPdPhDEdyTK0dvMm5SvYuaoi7PG9udd/MPqLAjDynBGsxvm8h2Fdv0D0QqvoEHLwHQygKN5fsIfmgzVDq8PgbavPsq4loUbW1Hw
17:51:59 <ais523> but it looks massively suspicious, more so than the Haskell
17:52:08 <APic> ais523: Big Thanks!
17:52:22 <ais523> int-e: I consider it to be more of an s-expression than anything
17:52:59 <ais523> a bracketed group is a single tokentree, to a macro – you can recurse into it but you can't match a prefix or suffix
17:53:37 <b_jonas> I feel like rust stole the idea from C that macros is where they delegate anything where they don't want to invent a nice general solution and don't want to document. Like, C has pages of standardese on what is and isn't valid in a sizeof. But is offsetof(struct{}) valid? Nobody knows, it's just a macro, not a *real* language construct, so they define it in like two lines, let the compiler writers
17:53:40 <ais523> you could make the 1==2 less suspicious by generating a macro that covered more of the code, and making it an attribute macro so there was less obviously a macro call involved (but that would mean making a whole separate module I think)
17:53:43 <b_jonas> decide. So actual implementations disagree.
17:54:22 <ais523> b_jonas: it may be more of a case of "we don't want to impose a solution and then discover it's wrong"
17:54:25 <b_jonas> "a bracketed group is a single tokentree" => yep, they stole that part from C macros too, except C macros only count round parenthesis, while rust macros count curlies and square brackets too
17:54:50 <ais523> e.g. there was the try! macro for ages before the ? operator was invented
17:55:15 <ais523> (they do the same thing, but it gave them time to work out the typing rules for the ? operator correctly)
17:55:18 <b_jonas> well, the difference is that rust macros can isolate the first or last token of a token stream, or match if two tokens are equal, while C can't
17:56:49 <ais523> how do you do the "match if two tokens are equal" – can you write the same variable twice on the match side?
17:57:10 <ais523> I think Rust macros might actually be TC, though, which would be a major difference from C if true
17:57:59 <ais523> recursion in Rust macros works weirdly but I think it's powerful enough to construct loops that can access unbounded memory
18:00:03 <b_jonas> also rust uses macros to get what look like functions but can't be functions because of unusual syntax: print! and panic! are macros because they take a variable number of arguments and because it implicitly takes shared references of them, both of which are banned for rust functions; assert! is a macro because it takes either one or two arguments, similarly unimplemented! takes zero or one arguments
18:00:39 <b_jonas> syntactically transforming from these to something built from ordinary functions is easy enough so they implemented them as macros
18:01:04 <ais523> one of the things I least like about Rust is all the autoreferencing and autodereferencing
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18:01:50 <ais523> it makes programs hard to read because the distinction between a reference and the thing it references isn't easily visible in the code – but the distinction is often important, so hiding it from the user makes readability hard
18:01:54 <b_jonas> I don't understand why env! is a macro rather than a const fn though
18:02:15 <ais523> C++ had the better approach, using . and -> as separate operators
18:02:21 <ais523> b_jonas: do you mean cfg!?
18:02:58 <ais523> env! is easy – it doesn't work at runtime
18:03:11 <ais523> whereas const fns have to work at both runtime and compile time
18:03:13 <b_jonas> cfg! takes an unquoted word argument so that woulnd't work as is, but it could be a function if it took a string
18:04:00 <ais523> like, env! absolutely requires a constant argument to work properly – it wouldn't work if given a non-constant argument, but const fns can't assume their argument is a constant because they might be run at runtime
18:04:22 <b_jonas> so? it's possible to make env! work at runtime, just save the compile-time environment if env! is used in a way that the compiler can't evaluate during compile time. include_bytes! can't reasonably be implemented like that because you can't save all accessible files, but the environment has a limited size
18:04:28 <ais523> that said, it could probably be a function that takes a const generic – env::<"PATH">() – except that const generics aren't implemented for non-integer types yet
18:04:52 <ais523> b_jonas: that would be a privacy leak I think
18:05:11 <b_jonas> true, it would save USER and stuff like that
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18:05:22 <b_jonas> ok, then env! being a macro is reasonable
18:05:50 <b_jonas> though it's only a privacy leak to a somewhat limited extent, because other users on the same linux host can already see all process's environments by default
18:06:08 <b_jonas> that's why you don't put passwords into the environment
18:07:04 <ais523> b_jonas: I was taught that passwords in the environment is correct, because command-line arguments leak more easily than environment variables do
18:07:32 <ais523> although I think the correct course of action is more like "use an environment variable that holds the path to a file that contains the password"
18:08:05 <b_jonas> you could also say that panic! is a macro because it has to save its compile-time location like __FILE__ and __LINE__ in C, but I don't think that works because the Option::unwrap function gives a stack trace with source location of the caller too
18:08:12 <ais523> cat: /proc/1/environ: Permission denied
18:08:44 <ais523> (just wanted to pick an arbitrary root-owned process, I think init counts)
18:09:15 <b_jonas> ok, I'm wrong then, this doesn't hold in modern linux then
18:09:20 <ais523> I guess the really interesting thing is if you want to transmit a temporary password from one process to another
18:09:23 <ais523> I guess you use a pipe?
18:10:06 <b_jonas> yes, bash makes that easy these days
18:10:52 <b_jonas> or a descriptor to a temporary file or other solutions of course
18:11:17 <b_jonas> temporary file might be easier because a pipe can get full
18:11:19 <ais523> b_jonas: thank you for making your language list – there were a few esolangs there that I missed
18:11:45 <b_jonas> wow! that one was on my user page already though, so the list doesn't necessarily add much
18:11:50 <APic> Yes, looks nice
18:12:51 <drwiz> b_jonas: what are some nonsense languages that you found new users creating?
18:13:26 <b_jonas> drwiz: dunno, cycle through https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Random and you'll find some
18:13:47 <b_jonas> I don't remember them usually
18:15:06 <ais523> you can pick a recent year category – esolangs have become worse on average as time goes on (the good esolangs are still just as good, but there are more pointless esolangs pulling the average down)
18:15:17 <b_jonas> what's the deal with https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Plutonium&diff=prev&oldid=107935 ? is it the OP ragequitting the wiki?
18:15:43 <ais523> Pages in category "2023" \ The following 200 pages are in this category, out of 411 total.
18:16:04 <drwiz> ais523: can you link me to a pointless esolang? as an aspiring esolang writer, it'll help me to calibrate where I stand
18:16:06 <ais523> b_jonas: that's normally a sign of "I changed my mind about creating this page" rather than a ragequit
18:16:37 <b_jonas> and that's just the ones with a year category
18:18:11 <ais523> drwiz: there are lots which are basically just brainfuck with a worse syntax and some extra commands that aren't particularly interesting, e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Yee
18:18:23 <int-e> `mkx ../bin/tio//<<<"$@" sed 's=.*##==' | tr @- ++ | base64 -d 2>/dev/null | cat <(printf "\x1f\x8b\x08\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00") - | gzip -dq 2>/dev/null | LC_CTYPE=C sed -zE 's=.*\xFF\xFF(.*)\xFF\xFF.*=\1='
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18:18:39 <int-e> `tio https://tio.run/##XYyxCsMgFEV3v@IaMvigSzMm2F8Jr8FCwJj0qZP47TauPdPhDEdyTK0dvMm5SvYuaoi7PG9udd/MPqLAjDynBGsxvm8h2Fdv0D0QqvoEHLwHQygKN5fsIfmgzVDq8PgbavPsq4loUbW1Hw
18:18:40 <HackEso> macro_rules! replace_equals { ($a:tt == $b:tt) => ($a != $b) } \ fn main() { \ println!("{}", replace_equals!(1 == 2)); \ }
18:18:57 <ais523> it's like people think "I want to make an esolang with syntax that looks like X" but can't think of interesting semantics, so they just put all the commands of BF in there so that it'll be Turing-complete
18:19:28 <ais523> int-e: ooh, so that's how you decode TIO URLs
18:20:00 <b_jonas> there are also language pages where the definition is seriously lacking, and there's no implementation nor extended description off-site, so I can't tell much about the properties of the language that it's suspposed to describe
18:20:11 <drwiz> ais523: thanks for linking me to it. that's exactly the type of example I was looking for
18:20:18 <ais523> I assume that the various other optional sections (header, footer, arguments, etc.) go between the \xFFs near the end
18:20:36 <drwiz> so if I want to make an esolang, I have to do much much better than this. this kind of thing is good to know for people like me.
18:21:02 <int-e> ais523: there are two or three fields terminated or separated by \xFF\xFF... the first field is the language
18:21:13 <drwiz> maybe there should be a "Contributing" page on the wiki which tells what type of content is suitable for this wiki and what isn't. perhaps there can be a word about not submitting "low effort" languages to the wiki.
18:21:23 <ais523> I actually use this sort of thing to motivate new users – "even if your esolang isn't very good it almost certainly won't be the worst language on the wiki"
18:22:11 <ais523> drwiz: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About is the closest we have, I think
18:22:12 <b_jonas> drwiz: no, the point is that those useless low-effort languages are usually appropriate onto the wiki. there are some exceptions, but that's only the minority of pages.
18:22:29 <ais523> together with the help and policy links
18:22:51 <int-e> that snippet also answers "how do I abuse gzip to decompress a raw deflate stream"
18:23:07 <drwiz> b_jonas: why are the low effort languages appropriate on the wiki? not arguing. just trying to understand the standards.
18:23:51 <b_jonas> drwiz: the original purpose why the wiki was founded is to attract the people who want to document those kinds of languages away from wikipedia
18:24:21 <b_jonas> because of that there's no minimum standard on the esowiki
18:25:02 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the original purpose was to get the esolangs documented here so that the information wouldn't be lost if/when it was deleted from Wikipedia, although that might be equivalent to what you said
18:25:25 <drwiz> who runs this wiki btw? does it cost money? who pays for it?
18:25:28 <ais523> but lots of esolang content got deleted from Wikipedia at around the time the wiki was created, so the standards for inclusion were intentionally low
18:25:37 <b_jonas> this one has no useful information in the history so it can probably be deleted safely https://esolangs.org/wiki/FunnyEsolangLol
18:26:11 <b_jonas> drwiz: fizzie runs the wiki, the money comes from a sponsor credited on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About
18:26:13 <ais523> the wiki server is run by fizzie; the wiki's content is moderated by a team of admins, but in practice it's mostly me who does the moderation; and it's paid for by Bytemark, a hosting company who donates server hosting
18:26:56 <drwiz> b_jonas, ais523: thanks
18:27:05 <b_jonas> some of the pages that annoy me are the ones that are not too interesting esolangs that hog prime namespace that should be left for better esolangs, especially when I feel like I can't steal them for the more interesting thing with the same name because that more interesting thing is less esoteric or less of a language
18:27:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[FunnyEsolangLol]]": Author request: deletion requested by author, and has never had nontrivial content
18:28:03 <b_jonas> like https://esolangs.org/wiki/W because https://esolangs.org/wiki/W is not esoteric enough, https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX because https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX_(Knuth) is not esoteric,
18:28:37 <b_jonas> but also about just pages where there isn't (yet) another thing to describe, but they still feel like they're taking up prime namespace
18:28:40 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134909&oldid=134700 * Ais523 * (-86) /* General languages */ rm redlink
18:29:22 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ABC is one where I might actually steal the namespace... hmmm
18:29:39 <b_jonas> that's one where the other is decidedly esoteric but less a language
18:29:40 <ais523> the supply of esolang names seems to be even more inexhaustible than the supply of names for other things
18:29:54 <int-e> MIX... I'd call it esoteric, in the sense that it was specifically designed to be similar to, but unlike, existing architectures.
18:29:57 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, which is why it sucks that people give bad names
18:30:30 <ais523> I am considering naming an esolang after a smell, but am not sure how I would express the specific smell it's named after on the wiki, or indeed when writing about it in other contexts
18:30:31 <Hooloovoo> I would argue that it's exactly the same amount of inexhaustible since both are countably infinite, right?
18:30:31 <int-e> Eh I'm not sure what the point was.
18:30:36 <b_jonas> int-e: designing something to be unlike existing languages doesn't make it esoteric, it could just be an experimental language designed so you can try ununsual new ideas to see what sticks
18:30:48 <ais523> this problem has come up in non-esoteric contexts when people try to trademark smells
18:31:01 <int-e> b_jonas: It's also not widely used outside of TAoCP.
18:31:09 <b_jonas> after a smell => by a parfume sold commercially?
18:31:30 <ais523> b_jonas: not so much perfumes, smelling is part of their function and you can't trademark something that's part of the product's functionality
18:31:51 <int-e> b_jonas: But it's not obscure the way most other languages on the wiki are.
18:31:55 <ais523> but some products have smells added to make it recognisable what company made them, when you open the packet
18:32:10 <int-e> Anyway. It's an opinion.
18:32:11 <b_jonas> right, I'm saying the perfume for naming the esolang
18:32:47 <ais523> <b_jonas> int-e: designing something to be unlike existing languages doesn't make it esoteric, it could just be an experimental language designed so you can try ununsual new ideas to see what sticks ← I am not sure – sometimes I think about languages which contain features that aren't widely (or ever) used just because I think they're a good idea, and am not sure whether they're esoteric or not
18:33:33 <ais523> the designers of Rust explained that they have a braces-and-semicolons syntax because practically useful languages have a "weirdness budget" of nonstandard features that people don't recognise, and they won't use the language if it's too weird
18:33:46 <ais523> and they didn't want to spend theirs on anything other than features that were essential to the language
18:33:59 <ais523> so the syntax was intentionally boring
18:34:20 <ais523> I think arguably, if you don't care about staying within a given weirdness budget, that makes the language into an esolang
18:36:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134910&oldid=134794 * Ais523 * (+245) /* is this a true disan count? */ it's still an example program, just not *this* example
18:36:48 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, and trying to make the syntax resemble existing languages resulted in at least two weird features, one is how names in a pattern are disambiguated between a new binding and an existing nullary struct/variant constructor, the other is that an if/while/loop statement can either be a statement without a terminating semicolon or an expression
18:37:36 <b_jonas> ok, but MIX does have a small weirdness budget, it does care about being similar to existing languages of the time it was created
18:37:59 <ais523> I think Rust should have had syntactically relevant case (with types, enum constructors, etc., having to start with an uppercase letter, and variables, function names, etc. with a non-uppercase letter)
18:39:24 <ais523> problems with non-cased languages like Chinese can probably be solved by using the underscore as an uppercase letter (although in practice I think most people use English identifiers rather than those from their native language)
18:39:36 <b_jonas> I would prefer if they allowed optional redundant empty parenthesis after variant constructors for disambiguate, both in expressions and patterns, eg. you can write None()
18:39:52 <ais523> incidentally, I am wondering whether if, when programming in Japanese, it makes sense to use katakana versus hiragana to disambiguate type from variable names, in much the same way that English speakers use case
18:39:54 <b_jonas> then you'd have a way to disambiguate in at least one direction
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18:40:59 <b_jonas> perhaps they could even add some disambiguation in the other direction, eg. you can use `const` as an analog of `mut` before a new binding, or with the @ punctuation somehow
18:41:31 <ais523> actually the ambiguity I most dislike in Rust is between trait methods and other trait methods with the same name, especially the way that you have to import the trait to be able to use methods from it
18:42:04 <ais523> this could be partially fixed by allowing people to import the individual trait method, as opposed to the trait as a whole, which would be consistent with other imports (at present, importing a trait is sort-of like a glob import)
18:42:06 <b_jonas> as in foo@_ is clearly a new binding
18:42:58 <ais523> the only "natural-looking" way to disambiguate that I can think of is to require the path on an enum constructor
18:43:18 <ais523> i.e. match { Option::Some(x) => x, Option::None => 0 }
18:43:33 <ais523> but that would probably get tedious after a while
18:43:50 <ais523> nobody wants to have to write match { Some(x @ _) => x, None => None }
18:44:47 <ais523> this is one reason I like casing as disambiguation
18:44:56 <ais523> given that almost everyone is doing that in practice anyway
18:45:05 <b_jonas> I was thinking of Maybe::None or _::None, and that could still be useful if you could allow _::Foo in *expressions* where Foo would be allowed even if not imported as long as the typechecker can figure out the enum type eg. from the type of the caller function, but I think that would be a bit ugly in patterns, while Foo() looks less ugly
18:45:40 <ais523> Rust doesn't have a Maybe, that's Haskell
18:45:58 <ais523> ooh, _::Some is interesting
18:46:04 <b_jonas> Some and None are fom Standard ML
18:46:18 <ais523> it's called option in OCaml, at least – not sure about Standard ML
18:46:35 <b_jonas> I mean the names Some and None come from there
18:46:41 <ais523> (and OCaml type names are in lowercase)
18:46:50 <ais523> (variant names are titlecase, though)
18:47:37 <ais523> OCaml polymorphic variants seem like they might be a useful feature in Rust, but probably not useful enough for the complexity of implementing them
18:49:06 <ais523> they'd solve the whole thiserror/anyhow problem, at least
18:50:53 <ais523> I guess the way you'd implement it in Rust would be "an enum is a union of newtypes, if two newtypes appear in the same enum they are given representations that are always distinguishable, so that the union can be dereferenced/matched against safely"
18:51:09 <ais523> I think some C programs implement Rust-like enums like that
18:52:36 <ais523> although, probably types would have to be explicitly marked as enum variants, to avoid the problem where a type looks like a ZST but is not actually zero-sized because it's used as an enum variant
18:53:53 <b_jonas> ais523: is that with the enum declared once and for all, or declared once but extendible later, or not declared at all and just created implicitly by the typechecker when it finds what variants an expression can be?
18:54:03 <ais523> but thinking about it, this solution seems obviously correct, and if I ever end up writing a Rust-like language that doesn't have backwards compatiblity constraints I will probably use it
18:54:15 <b_jonas> also is this related to Haskell GADTs?
18:54:42 <ais523> b_jonas: I would do it OCaml-style: you can declare a specific enum with a particular set of fields, but can also make ad hoc enums by listing all the variants or by allowing the compiler to infer the list of variants
18:55:22 <ais523> I am not confident enough about Haskell's GADTs to know how they correspond to polymorphic variants
19:01:43 <esolangs> [[7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134911&oldid=97012 * Ais523 * (+1) /* 3 (passive), plus an anonymous active command */ fix typo
19:05:26 <ais523> I like the symmetry between ad-hoc enums as sum types, and tuples (effectively ad-hoc structs) as product types
19:06:33 <ais523> OCaml makes it even more ad-hoc by not requiring the variant type to be declared (although it uses a sigil to mark a type as a variant type, so that the compiler knows that it doesn't need to look for the declaration)
19:09:42 <int-e> GADTs are something very different; they are algebraic data types (variants) that can be constrained through types. The motivating example is usually something like data Expr t where { EInt :: Int -> Expr Int; EBool :: Bool -> Expr Int; EPlus :: Expr Int -> Expr Int -> Expr Int; EEq :: Expr a -> Expr a -> Expr Bool }
19:10:13 <int-e> which tracks an expression's type in its 't' argument; Expr Int are Int-valued expressions while Expr Bool are Bool-valued expressions.
19:10:49 <ais523> that one could just be two mutually recursive ADTs if not for the EEq, which belongs to both of them
19:10:53 <int-e> They do not offer any ad-hoc extensions with additional alternatives.
19:12:08 <int-e> People write libraries with heavier type-level machinery to get extensible data types, for example https://hackage.haskell.org/package/extensible-0.9/docs/Data-Extensible-Sum.html
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19:13:51 <ais523> it crosses my mind that Rust *almost* has GADTs – it doesn't outright support not having certain variants in certain parameterized versions of the enum, but you can simulate it using traits and uninhabited types
19:14:00 <int-e> ais523: You could add, say, ELambda :: (Expr a -> Expr b) -> Expr (a -> b), and then it would be an infinite family of ADTs
19:14:48 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134912&oldid=134897 * Ractangle * (+68) /* Gift */
19:15:24 <int-e> Anyway, really totally different from polymorphic variants.
19:15:47 <ais523> oh, no, it doesn't quite work – you would need trait specialisation to, e.g., define a trait that was implemented for all types, but differently for integers
19:16:03 <ais523> int-e: right, I think I understand the feature now
19:16:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134913&oldid=134899 * Tommyaweosme * (+346) /* Appeal the revert */
19:17:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134914&oldid=134892 * Tommyaweosme * (-136) Replaced content with "meow"
19:18:09 <int-e> (of course if you add ELambda evaluating EEq will get difficult)
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19:19:33 <Noisytoot> b_jonas: If whitespace counts as formats, there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Whitespace
19:19:34 <ais523> int-e: only if you require it to return the correct answer in all cases; if it's a "can prove equal" versus "can't prove equal" it's fine
19:20:34 <ais523> it feels like, in some contexts in which function equality is relevant, it is in practice often quite easy to prove…
19:20:41 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134915&oldid=134876 * Ractangle * (+207) /* Examples */
19:21:47 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134916&oldid=134582 * Ractangle * (+140) /* Brainfuck */
19:30:34 <esolangs> [[Meow (tommyaweosme)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134917 * Tommyaweosme * (+995) Created page with "{{lowercase}} meow is a language created by [[user:tommyaweosme]]. == commands == === datatypes === cat - string treat - number toy - float sleep - boolean kitty() - convert to cat feed() - convert to treat play() - convert to toy snore() - conve
19:30:53 <esolangs> [[Meow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134918&oldid=119742 * Tommyaweosme * (+26) added mine
19:32:56 <esolangs> [[Amo gus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134919 * Tommyaweosme * (+396) Created page with "Amo gus is a programming challenge created by [[user:tommyaweosme]] for [[meow (tommyaweosme)|meow]]. == What it is? == An amo gus program does this: * asks for input * returns "gus" if input is "amo" * returns "amo" if input is "gus" * otherwise, do nothing For pro
19:35:36 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134920&oldid=130811 * Tommyaweosme * (+102)
19:36:11 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134921&oldid=134920 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) t y p o (weve spent our whole life waiting to fix this) t y p o (nah jk just a few seconds) t y p o
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20:23:21 <fizzie> I pay for the domain, incidentally. But it's less money than the hosting would be, at least for most of the ways of doing it.
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21:15:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/G Sharp]] to [[G Sharp]]
21:38:08 <b_jonas> Noisytoot: thank you, I did know about Whitespace, I even listed it close to Wysiscript in https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas/List , but I don't think it really counts
21:41:37 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134924 * Ractangle * (+229) Created page with "TESTLANG is an esolang created by [[Ractangle]] with one purpose. Testing stuff ==Syntax== ===Commands=== {| class="wikitable" ! Command !! Action |- | out || Prints a word next to it |- | note || Will ignore a word next to it |}"
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22:02:45 <esolangs> [[Meow (tommyaweosme)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134925&oldid=134917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) Categories
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22:36:29 <zzo38> In my opinion, of designing a programming language, I do not need to consider "weirdness budget" so much, although depending on what it is specific being made for (e.g. if it is designed to be usable with the C preprocessor or if it is designed to be a variant of C, vs if it is something else and the syntax and meanings might be difference in many ways)
22:36:57 <zzo38> Furthermore, something might be similar if it was based on some feature of other programming languages, unless the designer thinks it should be better in a different way, in which case it can be made a different way instead.
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22:45:24 <esolangs> [[Or++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134926&oldid=134518 * TheCanon2 * (+155) Added a Collatz sequence
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23:16:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134927&oldid=134907 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) /* Brainfuck is turing complete, but 1=2 */
23:17:31 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/"trolling" incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134928&oldid=134745 * Tommyaweosme * (+184)
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23:21:17 <zzo38> (I also think that some features that have been used in some of the more modern programming languages are bad ideas, although so are some of the features of older programming languages, e.g. the confusing syntax for types in C programming language)
23:36:56 <korvo> zzo38: I've gone back and forth on this. With Monte, we deliberately incorporated syntax ideas from Python in order to make something that had mass appeal. Nobody liked it.
23:37:18 <korvo> This time I've chosen to use S-expressions as surface syntax and spend all the weirdness budget in the IDE and VCS.
23:37:39 <korvo> The budget is real, mostly because *you* the esoteric PL designer have a limited imagination.
23:40:04 <zzo38> I don't know about Monte though, although I don't really like so much the syntax of Python, but some people do like it.
23:40:47 <zzo38> But, it is not only about the syntax. I think a "goto" command is a good thing to have, and that Unicode string types is not a good thing to have built-in.
23:43:10 <korvo> Monte was an attempt at a Python-flavored E. It was one of several languages to emerge from the Python 3 situation. I'm the only person to write serious amounts of it.
23:44:39 <korvo> I mean, dash wrote a few thousand lines, too. Like, dash wrote a lexer and parser, not nothing. But I wrote a nanopass compiler, a raytracer, a spellserver, a TUI widget library, and a bunch of other crap.
23:57:44 <esolangs> [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134930 * Corbin * (+623) Stub a page on NQL so that I can link to it from the Busy Beaver Gauge.
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00:04:08 <esolangs> [[Laconic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134931&oldid=50791 * Corbin * (+84) Use infobox proglang to consolidate some given info. Add bluelinks and stub.
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00:25:36 <esolangs> [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134932&oldid=134930 * Corbin * (+25) Add .nql file extension.
00:39:33 <ais523> <korvo> The budget is real, mostly because *you* the esoteric PL designer have a limited imagination. ← perhaps – but I think people normally pick a weirdness budget substantially less than what my imagination would allow
01:28:13 <salpynx> if i were a bored teenager, i might consider creating real esolangs with names like "Strings and boxes", "Standard-blox", or "Sanctified black copper calx" for Unicode look alike names to notify this channel that a page named Sandbox was created.
01:28:31 <salpynx> chat GPT just created an esolang for me based on Standard abstract complexes, it calls it Simplicia, which is a more creative name than "S𝗍andа𝗋𝖽⠀аbѕ𝗍𝗋ас𝗍⠀сo𝗆р𝐥еx"
01:29:04 <zzo38> I think ais523 is probably correct. However, I would not generally deliberately pick a "weirdness budget" but just what specific features I think that specific programming language should have, and it is not specific to esoteric programming languages. Another thing that sometimes has an effect is what it is designed to be compatible with, for some kinds of "compatible".
01:30:02 <salpynx> the AI generated esoteric code like: ADD_SIMPLEX 3 [0,1,2,3] // Tetrahedron representing a nested loop structure
01:30:15 <salpynx> it struck me as pretty novel to have a conceptually esoteric language with sensible readable keywords, rather than the fashion for abstract or otherwise cryptic syntax.
01:30:16 <salpynx> INTERCAL comes to mind, but I can't think of much else notable. Golfing and tarpit languages suit single symbol syntax, and that's what seems popular.
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01:42:33 <salpynx> awkward, deliberately obtuse, or dumb weirdness stays weird. Clever, useful and usable weirdness is innovation and will likely become mainstream
01:44:49 <zzo38> Some of it might. Some might not become mainstream, or will but in a different way. (I think that PostScript has many good features that are not as common in the most commonly used programming languages)
01:50:57 <salpynx> I thought there was a PostScript article on the wiki, looks like there isn't. It's hard to place some of those retro computing languages, and even Uxn which I added recently that sit somewhere in the intersection of good + interesting
01:52:20 <ais523> single letter keeps the parser simpler
01:52:21 <salpynx> it would be sad if we couldn't include good and interesting languages, but being too far in that direction almost seems like grounds for exclusion from the eso- category
01:56:07 <ais523> there are some weird ideas I've had that I'm not sure whether they're good or bad, e.g. generalizing an operator that works along the lines of Rust's ? to handle the List monad in addition to the Maybe monad (but limiting the scope to one block rather than the function, in both cases)
01:56:45 <ais523> so, e.g., { xs? + 1 } would be equivalent to xs.map(|x| x + 1)
01:57:05 <ais523> I think the operator would have to be called something other than ?, though
01:57:24 <ais523> but this is elegant in a way, it's sort-of like the opposite of do notation
01:58:45 <salpynx> toy languages that test an idea are good, they fit in the esolang category and are easily recognisable as a useful thing (and could spark other creative ideas)
01:59:36 <ais523> if you can take one new idea, put familiar (to esolangers at least) syntax around it and build a language, it can teach you a lot
01:59:44 <zzo38> Yes, I think so too
01:59:53 <ais523> I don't think I've seen that happen in ages, though, which is a pity
02:02:03 <salpynx> based on a recent joke comment here i've started a basically bf clone, but the tape is is an infinte 3d lattice of cells which are accessed by following the path of the Lorenz attractor... the parameters of which are determined by properties of the source code
02:02:04 <zzo38> I also think some things are worth something too, such as, [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]], [[User:Ian/Computer architectures]], etc too. Notice also they mention "some really weird ideas for the VAX that would make it almost esolang-like"
02:03:24 <ais523> I think there's a big overlap between esoprogramming and "found languages", i.e. things that turned out to be usable as programming languages despite not being intended that way
02:03:55 <zzo38> Yes, there is that too
02:04:02 <ais523> although the latter normally end up becoming directly ontopic due to people creating an esolang that compiles to them
02:04:57 <shachaf> ais523: I've thought about multiple things of that form.
02:05:40 <salpynx> I think best case scenario is I get a finite tape that intersects itself in unpredicatable ways. It's fun to create an interpreter for. I have a rudimentary one that is proving difficult to debug, because I'm not sure what exactly to expect when i move the data pointer :)
02:06:20 <shachaf> There was a monad syntax proposal where you could write "do { f (<- a) (<- b) }" to mean "do { x <- a; y <- b; f x y }", and so on.
02:07:23 <shachaf> But as a more syntactic thing, I've wondered about a programming language where there's an operator to have a thing that takes "the rest of the block" as an argument.
02:08:09 <salpynx> .. it made me think about using chaotic attractors for control flow, like Conedy or Thue-Mirr. Refracting chaotic trajectories might be interesting
02:08:32 <ais523> shachaf: yes, I've had thoughts along those lines too, although they never really came to anything
02:08:35 <shachaf> So you could say e.g. -- assuming you indicate this operator with ` -- { if(p)`; let x = for(xs)`; let y = for(ys)`; ... }
02:08:56 <shachaf> (In the above the thing can also pass a value to the rest of the block.)
02:09:48 <shachaf> But also just "for(xs)`++;" or whatever as an inline loop without naming the variable.
02:10:08 <shachaf> There are surprisingly many cases where you have a thing that occupies the rest of the block.
02:10:17 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh has a "link ... else ... then" block; if both inner parts are empty then it acts like a operator that takes "the rest of the block" as an argument.
02:10:19 <salpynx> What is the class of mathematical curiosities where it is unclear whether the thing is a programming language or not? Thue-Mirr is a bit like that, there's a binary sequence thing I can no longer find on the wiki that falls into the same category -- curious systems that exist but aren't neccesarily for programming
02:11:00 <shachaf> And there are even more things when you start thinking about this as the basic primitive.
02:11:21 <ais523> now I'm surprised that I haven't seen an esolang with an if-else-then statement
02:11:36 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if some practical language was capable of that, although I can't think of an example offhand
02:11:55 <ais523> Perl has an unless statement – does that allow an else?
02:12:12 <ais523> it does! I had to look it up
02:12:23 <shachaf> ais523: Some lambda calculus things often represents booleans with false as the first argument. Though this is more of a convention, I suppose.
02:12:25 <ais523> but there isn't an elsunless
02:12:32 <shachaf> Then again, so is true/false itself.
02:12:59 <ais523> I have considered a representation where true is Some(()) and false is None, which would be asymmetrical
02:13:10 <ais523> it makes some things more natural and other things much more awkward
02:13:34 <shachaf> By the way: Do you have a good name for the partially-ordered type {_|_, false, true}, with the order {_|_ < false, _|_ < true}?
02:13:41 <shachaf> This comes up in a lot of situations and I'd like a short name for it.
02:15:29 <ais523> oh, I think I recognise that but don't know what if it's called, if it even has a commonly recognised name
02:16:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134933&oldid=134528 * Tommyaweosme * (+11) amg uso o
02:16:33 <shachaf> MiniSAT calls this "lbool" for "lifted boolean".
02:16:39 <shachaf> (And probably other SAT solvers, I don't remember now.)
02:17:27 <shachaf> But there are many other situations.
02:18:25 <shachaf> For example, when you're doing a distributed transaction, you can track each participant in the transaction as having that state (maybe, succeeded, failed).
02:18:41 <shachaf> And also the entire transaction -- the whole transaction is just the "and" of all the participant states.
02:22:31 <ais523> it's one of those types that has two comparison operators at right angles: the "more defined than" operator and the "truer than" operator
02:27:32 <salpynx> Perl can do unless-elsif-else , conceptually you could have an elsunless to chain unlesses. 'unless' is an odd word.
02:28:16 <ais523> now I'm wondering why Perl doesn't allow else if as a special case, and invented a new keyword instead
02:30:23 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134934&oldid=134914 * PrySigneToFry * (+199)
02:30:56 <salpynx> oh, I just noticed you'd already made an elsunless comment above :)
02:33:05 <shachaf> ais523: I'm a little skeptical about the value of "truer than" in most of these contexts.
02:33:21 <shachaf> I talked about this with a friend and he pointed out that you can think of these as representing possible sets of values.
02:33:40 <shachaf> I.e. {false, true}, {false}, {true}
02:33:49 <ais523> I tried to write a for-else loop once but Rust wouldn't let me (I wanted the block at the end to provide a value if there was no break out of the for)
02:33:53 <shachaf> And I mean "sets of possible values".
02:33:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134935&oldid=134933 * PrySigneToFry * (+97)
02:34:48 <ais523> shachaf: it's basically a "declarative language boolean", right? unknown, true, false (and the "no possibility" possibility doesn't exist because that would trigger backtracking / pruning of that nondeterministic branch)
02:35:20 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean by "declarative language".
02:35:26 <shachaf> Oh, you mean a logic language like Prolog.
02:35:53 <shachaf> Yes, that sounds sort of right, though in Prolog you can't explicitly test that something is unknown, right?
02:35:58 <ais523> yes – I think the term "declarative language" is more general but I was thinking of the ones that work using successively tighter constraints
02:36:20 <ais523> in a hypothetical pure Prolog you shouldn't be able to, almost all practical Prologs have some way to do it though
02:36:58 <ais523> IIRC even standard ISO Prolog has var/1 and nonvar/1
02:39:28 <shachaf> The monotonicity thing is generally important in all cases.
02:39:43 <shachaf> I mean, I think of these as write-once variables, that start in unknown state and then change state at most once.
02:39:54 <ais523> that's basically what a boolean is in Prolog
02:40:03 <ais523> you can't unassign it except by backtracking
02:42:07 <shachaf> This is also the SAT solver thing, of course.
02:42:24 <ais523> SAT solvers are also declarative
02:42:43 <ais523> now you've got me wondering about what a declarative language actually is
02:43:16 <ais523> I think the main defining feature is that the program specifies properties of the output it wants, without directly specifying an algorithm – and that normally gets implemented using mathematical nondeterminism but not always
02:45:43 <HackEso> The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
02:46:54 <ais523> hmm, I think you can distinguish _ from true from false if you have cuts
02:47:20 <ais523> cut allows you to define not, then if not(not(X=true)) and not(not(X=false)) it must be _
02:47:37 <ais523> so I'm interested in what that cut-eliminates to
02:47:52 <ais523> the theorem must have some sort of set of Prolog builtins that are used to replace the cut
02:49:59 <korvo> miniKanren doesn't have cuts, and also doesn't have var/1 or equivalent.
02:50:15 <shachaf> I should clarify that the above is a joke, and may not actually hold.
02:50:22 <shachaf> Though I thought it did! So that's an interesting point.
02:50:27 <ais523> it probably does hold if you have enough builtins
02:50:37 <korvo> It's actually kind of annoying because gensym has to be hacked in somehow, whereas a Prolog implementation could check each variable and cut it off with a fresh gensym once.
02:50:45 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut-elimination_theorem
02:51:20 <ais523> which is about something else, of course
03:00:26 <ais523> now I have fallen into the side track of working out how people actually represent booleans in Prolog, when they need to, because true and false are both keywords that don't expand to boolean values
03:00:29 <ais523> I guess you could use t and f
03:00:54 <ais523> or, hmm, no, it's fail not false, and true might not be a keyword?
03:02:08 <ais523> I haven't written Prolog in so long
03:02:26 <ais523> I guess what I'm thinking about is, some interpreters use true versus false to specify whether your query succeeded or failed
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03:09:36 <korvo> Ugh, curious Brainfuck problem: is it easy to do succ (mod 2**n) for *small* n? Looking at Laver tables and I need to be able to do lots of (mod 8) and (mod 16); I could start at bigger n but the whole point is to search for (mod 32).
03:10:13 <korvo> ais523: Relationally (or homotopically, posetally, etc.) there's two different Booleans.
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03:10:31 <korvo> There's {t, f}. There's also {f → t}, with a single non-trivial arrow.
03:10:56 <korvo> If you want the former in Prolog then you use symbols. If you want the latter then you NAF and SIT.
03:11:07 <korvo> Er, Negation As Failure and Substitution Is Truth.
03:11:17 <ais523> korvo: I'm assuming you're talking about bignum brainfuck – mod 2**n is pretty easy when you have wrapping cells
03:11:49 <ais523> just store the numbers multiplied by a constant
03:11:58 <ais523> and let the wrapping handle the modulo for you
03:12:19 <ais523> with bignum brainfuck it's probably quite difficult, though
03:12:36 <korvo> ais523: That might work! The constant would slowly decrease to zero, at which point it would be ignorable.
03:12:58 <korvo> FWIW I'm looking at p2 of http://cheddarmonk.org/papers/laver.pdf
03:14:52 <korvo> I think I'm going to use wrapping Brainfuck for Busy Brains. I guess that bignums are beautiful? But for some reason, wrapping feels closer to the spirit of BB.
03:15:55 <ais523> fwiw, 1-bit wrapping is probably more elegant than 8-bit wrapping
03:16:15 <ais523> although, that might be a bit too close to a Turing Machine to be interesting
03:16:30 <korvo> Yep, you're reading my mind.
03:17:26 <korvo> Maybe Brainfuck isn't interesting enough? I dunno. Once I get bfmacro working, it should be easy to pound out some inefficient example programs, and that'll give us a sense of whether it's worthwhile.
03:25:10 <korvo> ...Okay, yeah, now I'm thinking that we have to study Brainfuck as a perfectoid system; there's bignum BF and also all the p-adic BFs.
03:25:53 <korvo> Like, classical Brainfuck is merely the case of p=2, k=8. I'm convinced.
03:26:21 * korvo going to think of a better name than "Perfectoid Algebraic Brainfuck" before making a new page
03:38:12 <salpynx> i can see a maximally offensive intercalative blend for that, but that's probably not what you're striving for
03:45:28 <ais523> re: elegance in BF, I feel like limited tape length / unlimited cell size and unlimited tape length / limited cell size are both more elegant than the combinations with both limited or both unlimited
03:46:16 <ais523> I guess I don't like it when tarpits have extra power above what they need for TCness
03:46:28 <ais523> although, not always, e.g. Underload is probably more elegant with the unneccessary builtins
03:46:44 <ais523> and SKI combinator calculus conceptually "wants" the I even though it's just SKK
03:48:19 <korvo> salpynx: Nah, it's got reasons. "Perfectoid" is what Scholze calls this whole tower-of-p-adic-spaces with an infinite space on top. "Algebraic" is to get rid of all of the syntactic issues that would get in the way.
03:50:02 <korvo> Like, for any positive k, let `+k` be `+` k times, and then `+k[-]` halts in any of the flavors we're discussing, including bignum. This is trivial if we've algebraically identified `[-]` with the operation which zeros the current cell in any flavor.
03:50:20 <korvo> But sure, as usual, feel free to make monstrosities.
03:52:32 <korvo> ais523: I do think that SKI is a sweet spot in terms of breadth vs depth. The one-combinator bases are known (Jot, Iota, Meredith's bases) but derivations are always way deeper just by a counting argument.
03:52:47 <korvo> (You know this. As usual, when talking to you, I'm talking to the channel.)
04:03:30 <ais523> hmm, is it possible to consistently/rigorously define the bignum-BF variant in which -[-] terminates (having wrapped the cell value around the entire infinite number line and back to 0)?
04:04:14 <ais523> my guess is no, assuming that we want all programs that halt regardless of the cell size to also halt with bignums
04:04:41 <ais523> or at least, yes in terms of being able to define the language mathematically but no in terms of implementing it on a Turing machine
04:04:42 <korvo> You gotta believe~ So, at first blush, no; it only converges (mod p**k), a very light version of Hensel's lemma.
04:05:19 <korvo> But if you believe that F1, the field with one element, is a real thing... F1 would be the finite field upon which you could do (mod 1) shenanigans legitimately.
04:06:55 <ais523> I realised fairly recently that mod-0 is most consistently defined as the identity function, which would in turn imply that floor-division of a nonzero number by 0 returns 0
04:07:43 <ais523> although maybe the "0" here is actually a misidentified infinity
04:08:17 <korvo> Right, that's kind of the big question: are characteristic zero fields actually going off to some point-at-infinity, some divergence, or some looping-around?
04:50:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DKoTechnology * New user account
04:56:26 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134936&oldid=134902 * Gggfr * (+44) /* how it works */
05:02:50 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134937&oldid=134859 * PrySigneToFry * (-454)
05:06:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134938&oldid=134934 * Unname4798 * (-199) Replaced content with "meow"
05:09:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134939&oldid=134846 * Gggfr * (+380)
05:12:36 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134940&oldid=134810 * Gggfr * (+29) /* tips */
05:13:00 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134941&oldid=134940 * Gggfr * (-42) /* examples */
05:22:24 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134942 * Gggfr * (+496) Created page with "'''why tho''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] and is inspired by [[Lambda calculus]] and [[Fractran]]. == How it works == the start of the program is a two lambda calculus expressions(the first one is x and the second one is x) each encased by square brackets. t
05:24:33 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134943&oldid=134942 * Gggfr * (+150)
05:25:19 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134944&oldid=134943 * Gggfr * (+29)
05:30:02 <zzo38> The "Concrete Mathematics" book also says that mod 0 should be defined as a identity function
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05:31:03 <zzo38> It does not mention floor-division of a nonzero number by zero making zero, although in uxn, division by zero is defined to make zero, whether the first number is zero or nonzero
05:31:53 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798/Test]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134945 * Unname4798 * (+910) Created page with "You can see block details at [https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist&action=raw User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist]. hello. im a soldier, and esolang war 2 just sparked. if youve got any questions, ask em here. == Appeal the re
05:36:26 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/About Sandbox War]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134946 * PrySigneToFry * (+2640) Created page with "<span style="font-family:serif;color:black;font-size:60px;text-align:center;">Sandbox War<span> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::Written by --[[User:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:blue;background:yellow;">Pry</span>]][[User talk:PrySigneTo
05:37:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134947&oldid=134938 * PrySigneToFry * (+38)
05:38:57 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134948&oldid=134937 * PrySigneToFry * (+43)
05:52:23 <int-e> ais523: how does x - (x div 0) * 0 = x mod 0 = x imply anything about x div 0?
05:53:12 <int-e> (IMO it's quite reasonable to define `x mod 0 = x` and still leave `x div 0` undefined)
06:09:23 <ais523> I forgot about the multiplication by 0
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06:16:03 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134949&oldid=134947 * Unname4798 * (-38) Replaced content with "meow"
06:36:42 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134950&oldid=134944 * Gggfr * (+118)
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06:39:11 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134951&oldid=134898 * Ducbadatchem * (+4168) add some things, still incomplete
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07:02:26 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134952&oldid=134950 * Gggfr * (+457)
07:09:42 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134953&oldid=134952 * Gggfr * (+40)
07:11:27 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134954&oldid=134951 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Comments */ Fix tag
07:12:38 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134955&oldid=134953 * Gggfr * (+4) /* How it works */
07:16:44 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134956&oldid=134955 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) Categories
07:21:11 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134957&oldid=134924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) Stub, categories
07:25:53 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134958&oldid=134956 * Gggfr * (+23)
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07:53:48 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134959&oldid=134958 * Gggfr * (+106) /* How it works */
07:56:45 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134960&oldid=134957 * Ractangle * (+253)
08:03:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134961&oldid=95246 * Gggfr * (+162) /* Python Interpreter */
08:05:08 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134962&oldid=134960 * Ractangle * (+69)
08:06:30 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134963&oldid=134962 * Ractangle * (+56)
08:08:38 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134964&oldid=134959 * Gggfr * (+185) /* simple example */
08:08:50 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134965&oldid=134964 * Gggfr * (+1) /* se also */
08:16:36 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134966&oldid=134965 * Gggfr * (+1) /* se also */
08:17:43 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134967&oldid=134963 * Ractangle * (+84) /* Examples */
08:21:51 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134968&oldid=134506 * Ractangle * (-24) /* Esolangs */
08:23:00 <esolangs> [[(script())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134969&oldid=134515 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Deadfish implementation */
08:26:48 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134970&oldid=134967 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Sub-words */
08:28:58 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134971&oldid=134765 * Ractangle * (+18) /* See also */
08:40:52 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134972&oldid=134966 * Gggfr * (+91) /* computational class */
08:50:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Shell]] to [[User:Ractangle/Shell]]
08:50:15 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Shell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134975&oldid=134973 * Ractangle * (-13)
08:50:39 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134976&oldid=134968 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Esolangs */
08:51:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[]] to [[User:Ractangle/]]
08:51:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134979&oldid=134977 * Ractangle * (-53)
08:51:55 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134980&oldid=134976 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Esolangs */
09:05:44 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134981&oldid=134811 * 5anz * (+11) /* Doing it by hand... again. */
09:06:52 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134982&oldid=134981 * 5anz * (+13) /* Esolang I made */
09:08:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:5anz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134983 * 5anz * (+24) Created page with "Ask me questions here :)"
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09:56:45 <wib_jonas> "grey area, such as future solar eclipses" hehe, I hadn't noticed this pun yesterday
10:17:30 <wib_jonas> "how you can do the 1==2 in Rust […] but it looks massively suspicious" => if Rust ever implements the equivalent of the Haskell extension where numeric literals can be of any type constructed by some trait method rather than only built-in numeric types then you'll be able to do this in a somewhat less suspicious way.
10:18:37 <wib_jonas> Of course that's more difficult than in Haskell because Rust doesn't have a built-in bigint type, so the trait function would need to be a custom one that parses a string to a number, rather than just converts a number from some built-in type.
10:26:15 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134984&oldid=134972 * Xff * (+41) /* computational class */
10:41:18 <wib_jonas> "a conceptually esoteric language with sensible readable keywords" => it doesn't happen often because most esolangs have few builtin features. Keywords are much more useful when you have a hundred builtin features and you don't want to represent all of them with punctuation. But when your language is like brainfuck or underload with just eight
10:41:18 <wib_jonas> builtins, and source code is typed in full ASCII rather than punched in some very limited EBCDIC set, then it's easier to just use eight distinct punctuation marks for the eight builtins.
10:44:31 <wib_jonas> “‘found languages’, i.e. things that turned out to be usable as programming languages despite not being intended that way” => hmm, does Amycus count?
10:45:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134985&oldid=134913 * Unname4798 * (-46) Esolang Sandbox Preservation War ended on August 3.
10:49:29 <wib_jonas> ais523 "I haven't seen an esolang with an if-else-then statement" => https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo has both if-then-else and if-else-then. and IIRC think Slang has if and unless like perl does, though it spells unless differently.
10:49:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mugh brains]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134986&oldid=133271 * 5anz * (+140) /* How do I use this? */ new section
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10:59:23 <wib_jonas> ais523 "for-else loop […] I wanted the block at the end to provide a value if there was no break out of the for" => yeah, for-else and while-else could be useful, python has that feature. I faintly remember that some programming language spoiled it by assigning a different and less useful semantics to it.
11:03:47 <wib_jonas> "declarative language" => we had a university course titled "declarative programming" which teaches prolog and Standard ML, so I assumed it mostly meant the same as functional programming
11:04:17 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134987&oldid=134970 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Words */
11:09:18 <wib_jonas> "how people actually represent booleans in Prolog" => Olvasható represents them with the terms tru and fals, except in most cases the term is optimized out and the boolean only appears as a success/failure that we dispatch on with => . You could represent them with the terms true and false because then you can just execute a boolean term to get
11:09:56 <wib_jonas> false and fail are equivalent as predicates in Prolog
11:12:23 <esolangs> [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134988&oldid=134419 * Itoh Shimon * (+24) /* Specifications */
11:18:39 <wib_jonas> s/dispatch with =>/dispatch with ->/
11:39:38 <wib_jonas> apparently ruby has unless-else too, no surprise since it copied a lot of that from perl
11:41:23 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134989&oldid=134987 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Sub-words */
11:42:14 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134990&oldid=134877 * Ducbadatchem * (+1368) Added ARMLite implementation
11:42:16 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134991&oldid=134989 * Ractangle * (+52) /* Examples */
11:43:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134992&oldid=134865 * Ducbadatchem * (+14) Added ARMLite entry
11:56:34 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134993&oldid=134991 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Hello, world! */
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12:06:36 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134994&oldid=134912 * Ractangle * (+98) /* TernLSB */
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13:13:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:SpoilerFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134995 * 5anz * (+181) Created page with "==What?== I can't help but think the name "'''<span class="spoiler">Fuck</span>'''" was just for this wiki. -~~~~"
13:16:55 <esolangs> [[B i n a r y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134996&oldid=134802 * 5anz * (+5) /* Fake 0 */
13:17:38 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134997&oldid=134990 * Ducbadatchem * (+59) /* ARMLite */
13:18:54 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134998&oldid=134954 * Ducbadatchem * (+1494) Added Deadfish implementation link + some commands
13:33:41 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134999&oldid=134984 * Xff * (+40)
13:50:46 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135000&oldid=134993 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Sub-words */
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14:39:43 <esolangs> [[?Q?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135001&oldid=134941 * Xff * (+4) /* examples */
14:58:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ThatAH * New user account
15:01:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135002&oldid=134820 * ThatAH * (+287) /* Introductions */
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15:25:42 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135003 * ThatAH * (+37) Created page with "Creator of Digital and yeah, yapping."
15:28:07 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135004&oldid=134111 * RainbowDash * (+15)
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15:51:08 <esolangs> [[User:Ducbadatchem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135005 * Ducbadatchem * (+104) i use arch btw
16:16:50 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135006 * ThatAH * (+3598) Created page with "'''Digital''' is an [[Esoteric programming language|esolang]] created by [[User:ThatAH]]. It is similar in some ways to [[Unary]] but is intended to be more practical. Digital only uses ten instructions, the numbers of the base-10 system, where it derives it's name from
16:17:51 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135007&oldid=135006 * ThatAH * (-6) Fixed the code tags overflowing the page.
16:19:27 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135008&oldid=135007 * ThatAH * (+0) Miner semantic change.
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16:25:27 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135009&oldid=135003 * ThatAH * (+96)
16:25:48 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135010&oldid=135009 * ThatAH * (+4)
16:26:16 <esolangs> [[User:ThatAH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135011&oldid=135010 * ThatAH * (+1)
16:29:25 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135012&oldid=135008 * ThatAH * (-1)
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16:59:22 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135013&oldid=134884 * Ractangle * (+49) /* This esolang is not a push-down automata */
17:01:02 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135014&oldid=128070 * Ractangle * (+81) /* Text */
17:04:16 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135015&oldid=134980 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Other things */
17:07:44 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135016&oldid=134609 * Ractangle * (+44) /* Text */
17:12:50 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135017&oldid=130820 * Ractangle * (-565) /* Language specifications */
17:14:30 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135018&oldid=135017 * Ractangle * (-20)
17:17:05 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135019&oldid=135018 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Implementations */
17:17:53 <esolangs> [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135020&oldid=132593 * Ractangle * (+1) /* + */
17:18:24 <esolangs> [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135021&oldid=135020 * Ractangle * (+4) /* - */
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18:15:23 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135022&oldid=131361 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Example(s) */
18:17:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135023&oldid=131399 * Ractangle * (+130)
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20:01:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135024&oldid=134985 * Tommyaweosme * (-2)
20:09:21 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135025 * Tommyaweosme * (+1510) Created page with "Better Burn is [[Burn]] but better. It was created as a child of the war between ~~~ and [[User:Ais523]]. == Commands == ;Colours given as BG, levels 0-3. 00 00 01 00 00 00 10 11 01 01 (digits 3 and 2 of wolfram rule in order) (first two digits of wolfram
20:09:33 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135026&oldid=135025 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
20:14:46 <korvo> Protip: Don't say that you're at "war" with moderation. If you absolutely must take such a stance, be clear that you "disagree" with "decisions" made by moderators, but that you nonetheless "respect" what they do.
20:16:14 <korvo> There's no problem with being openly contemptuous of management as long as you're productive and courteous. Find a mindset that can both despise people and also ensure that they are comfortable and well-fed.
20:16:51 <korvo> But don't start shitting all over personal notes or personal connections unless you're prepared for a dramatic increase in intimacy and severity of consequences.
20:56:30 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135027&oldid=131616 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Commands */
20:59:33 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135028&oldid=135027 * Ractangle * (+75) /* Commands */
20:59:59 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135029&oldid=135028 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello, world! */
21:00:31 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135030&oldid=135029 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Cat program */
21:01:46 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135031&oldid=135030 * Ractangle * (+18) /* A+B Problem */
21:13:47 <zzo38> One thing to consider about esoteric programming languages vs not esoteric programming languages, is PostScript, which has been described as both at the same time (I don't know who described it as such; I think I was not the first to do so; do you know?)
21:40:49 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/rt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135032&oldid=130989 * Ractangle * (-69) /* Examples */
21:42:53 <esolangs> [[Shape-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135033&oldid=131863 * Ractangle * (-75)
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00:35:34 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523 non-admin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135034&oldid=54324 * Ais523 * (+89) update
00:41:28 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-maybefalsepositive-warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135035&oldid=49596 * Ais523 * (+29) mention "Introduce yourself" in all the abuse filter warnings that can be fixed like that
00:42:24 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-spambotlike-warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135036&oldid=35728 * Ais523 * (-6) mention "Introduce yourself" in all the abuse filter warnings that can be fixed like that
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01:11:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135037&oldid=134483 * Tommyaweosme * (+249) /* Better Burn */ new section
01:15:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135038&oldid=135037 * Ais523 * (+235) /* Better Burn */ language is mostly unrelated
01:26:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135039&oldid=134949 * PrySigneToFry * (+221)
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02:26:59 <esolangs> [[ARMLite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135040&oldid=134998 * Ducbadatchem * (+86)
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03:56:48 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135041&oldid=118887 * BoundedBeans * (+28) Clarified "reflection is fine"
04:00:13 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135042&oldid=135041 * BoundedBeans * (+156) Fixed explanation of line continuations' effect on the 2d language
04:04:11 <korvo> Hm. So, I started out today thinking that universality has a bad interaction with encodings. If one gives a UTM, then it's likely very sensitive to the input encoding for the TM under emulation, which could be a problem for any sort of gauge or comparison.
04:05:00 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135043&oldid=135042 * BoundedBeans * (+84) Added "@IG/X" comments
04:05:56 <korvo> But maybe it's even worse, in a way that makes it okay. Universality covers an entire class of languages, so giving a UTM is relative to an encoder for the entire class. But usually every number decodes to some class member, so universality kind of works in our favor by letting us ignore which class we used.
04:08:47 <korvo> IOW what we want to gauge is the point (or curve, for multivariable functions like BB) where universality is known to be (im)possible. Doesn't matter which flavor of universality.
04:08:50 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135044&oldid=135043 * BoundedBeans * (+232) Added code tags
04:09:38 <esolangs> [[DAWBridge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135045&oldid=135044 * BoundedBeans * (+0) Changed "2d" to "2D"
04:11:04 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135046&oldid=134282 * BoundedBeans * (+78) Genewrath summary
04:13:39 <esolangs> [[Harmonii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135047&oldid=131433 * BoundedBeans * (+41) Clarification edit and adding "instead" where it belongs
04:33:09 <ais523> korvo: right, I think the way universality is defined is "any Turing machine can be encoded into an input for this UTM which causes the UTM to implement the Turing machine", with some restrictions on how much power the encoder is allowed
04:33:18 <ais523> (e.g. the encoder isn't allowed to contain a halting oracle, for obvious reasons)
04:34:15 <ais523> exactly how much power you can put in the encoder is disputed and has lead to lots of controversy in the past, although "the encoder is primitive recursive" is considered by most people to be a sufficient condition for the encoder to be acceptable (although not all of them think it's necessary)
04:34:39 <ais523> if you are just dealing with "is this universal" / "is this non-universal" then the complexity of the encoder and the size of the encoded programs don't really matter
04:34:50 <korvo> ais523: Right. The technicalities were blinding md to the obvious concept that I can't complain about the choice of emulated language *or* encoding; they don't matter for expressive power (WLOG it's TC, duh) and don't matter for undecidability.
04:34:56 <ais523> but if you're dealing with busy-beaver-like programs they suddenly become relevant
04:35:13 <korvo> Er, *don't matter for undecidability in terms of decidable-vs-universal, like you say.
04:35:51 <korvo> Right, for Beaver candidates, it matters. For establishing the gauge against which to weigh Beaver candidates, it *doesn't* matter.
04:35:54 <ais523> I suspect it's probably also the case that any for UTM, and any TC language, you can write an encoder for that UTM/language pair
04:36:34 <ais523> this is almost trivial, but the proof breaks down in the situation where the encoder is not capable of producing any sort of literal (e.g. string or numeric literal) that the UTM is able to understand
04:36:58 <ais523> and that could potentially happen in cases where the UTM is really weird and the encoder has low power
04:37:00 <esolangs> [[Onione]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135048&oldid=129346 * BoundedBeans * (+162) Added DO:TEN to make programming more possible
04:38:56 <ais523> (imagine a language which is basically "Ackermann-encoded Unary", i.e. you take a Unary program but perform the Ackermann function on the unary number it represents, and that's your language – then imagine a self-interpreter for that language, it's universal but a primitive recursive encoder can't encode most normal languages into it because it can't generate a string long enough)
04:41:16 <ais523> now I am thinking about busy-beaver-encoded unary
04:41:55 <ais523> in order to encode a unary program of length n, you must encode it to the nth busy beaver number
04:42:05 <ais523> I think this is probably on the wiki already, I vaguely remember reading it, but forget what it's called
04:42:08 <korvo> (Conversely, doesn't most of what we want come from the fact that a decoder can't reject input at the machine level? It has to do *something* for an input program, and becoming stuck is a something.)
04:43:04 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Language_That_Explodes
04:43:05 <korvo> That would be one way to encode a Halting oracle. Very straightforward, TBH.
04:43:09 <ais523> not only is it on the wiki already, I invented it
04:45:11 <ais523> and right, TLTE has a trivial halting oracle, and is computable, and can implement any Turing machine
04:45:25 <ais523> and yet it is entirely useless because the program encoding step involves a halting oracle
04:47:08 <ais523> in addition to the philosophical questions with the encoder, there is also a "halt detector" which has similar problems – the program that looks at the execution of the UTM and decides when it's halted
04:47:20 <ais523> although at least that one is usually easy to work around by giving the UTM a halt transition
04:48:04 <ais523> for the (2,3) Turing machine proof I eventually found a way to get it to halt by going off the end of a semi-infinite tape, but I wasn't able to get the encoder down to a level of simplicity that everyone was happy with
04:54:16 <korvo> Yeah. Both the halt detector and exploding language are "degree zero", at least. Or is it "degree one"? It's the first degree above computability.
04:54:47 <korvo> I'm still grappling with Beeping BB being genuinely another degree up. Like, even an oracle for Halting wouldn't let us compute Beeping.
04:56:14 <ais523> I think a beeping TM is comparable to a TM with a halting oracle – the difference is that the halting oracle returns by halting the program if the program it's scanning doesn't halt, which might make it less powerful than a TM equipped with a normal halting oracle
04:56:26 <ais523> but this means that a halting oraclce for normal TMs won't work on a beeping TM
04:57:51 <korvo> It's also that the oracle can't say anything about state transitions in the non-halting case. A non-halting TM could take quite a while to get around to beeping.
05:01:03 <korvo> ...Wait, that doesn't make any sense. I think I've gotten to the part of the evening where I'm just openly incorrect.
05:01:16 <ais523> I've been hitting that part of the evening way too often recently
05:01:21 <ais523> it sort-of makes me scared to say anything at all
05:02:19 <korvo> If only we weren't at the frontier of hard maths. Also, look how many other folks were wrong before us. It's our sacred duty to stand on their shoulders and, as Weird Al put it, dare to be stupid~
05:05:37 <ais523> I guess I see maths as being like logic/declarative programming languages: you start with a large pile of "I don't know", and gradually learn more about it and become able to fill in parts that you do know, but avoiding any actual wrong information
05:05:38 <korvo> But TBH I should probably just go to bed. Just as soon as this script works right. Trying to automatically count BF program size is a little tricky because a bit of optimization is required to remove comments and platform-detection idioms.
05:08:41 <korvo> Ah, for sure. I'm wrong a lot, and I've just kind of gotten used to it emotionally, but maybe that's not a good approach to recommend to other folks.
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05:11:32 <korvo> I dunno. On one wolf, I know that it's important to maintain academic humility and work hard to be open to new information. And on the other wolf, I can't help but notice that the average person is not nearly so rigorous.
05:12:57 <ais523> I am fairly convinced that I am too perfectionist – but worried that if I try to correct that, I will end up not perfectionist enough by an extent that leaves me worse off overall
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06:48:16 <esolangs> [[Unary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135049&oldid=131494 * ThatAH * (+15)
06:50:52 <esolangs> [[Digitial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135050&oldid=135012 * ThatAH * (+134)
07:06:56 <esolangs> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135051&oldid=135049 * B jonas * (+33) /* See also */
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07:17:15 <b_jonas> somehow Unary is reinvented occasionally, there are at least four pages describing very similar languages on the esowiki, always using brainfuck, though Unary is the oldest. I thought there was one that's one or two exponentials above Unary, but I can't find it right now, so I may have been imagining it. I don't think I've seen ackermann or anything growing that fast.
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07:51:00 <ais523> I have been meaning to make a version of Lenguage based on Jelly or some other similar powerful golfing language, to increase the chance that the programs are actually storable
07:51:33 <ais523> but never got around to it, partly because I was considering putting it as part of some big overengineered project that never actually happened
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09:23:22 <wib_jonas> "increase the chance that the programs are actually storable" => it would be easier if you don't store the program explicitly but generate it dynamically and pipe it into the interpreter. just make sure to call the magical system call that increases the storage capacity of the pipe if you're on Windows (or old Linux).
09:24:53 <wib_jonas> I've sent raw video files through pipes this way, generated by decompressing a compressed video file, so I know this works
09:48:32 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135052&oldid=134708 * TheMCoder * (+652)
09:49:02 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135053&oldid=135052 * TheMCoder * (-1) /* python code: */
09:52:31 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/BB thoughts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135054 * Salpynx * (+2726) thoughts on busy beaver, and encoding by Turing machines (in progress)
10:12:43 <esolangs> [[HsifdaeD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135055&oldid=120292 * Ducbadatchem * (+765) Added Python interpreter
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11:28:48 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135056&oldid=135031 * Ractangle * (+132) /* Commands */
11:29:03 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135057&oldid=135056 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Commands */
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11:31:59 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135058&oldid=135057 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Other implementations */
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11:34:58 <esolangs> [[BASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135059&oldid=135058 * Ractangle * (+15) /* Infinite loop */
11:37:44 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135060&oldid=133900 * Ractangle * (-30)
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11:46:00 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135061&oldid=134922 * Ractangle * (-15) /* Deadfish implementation */
11:47:21 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135062&oldid=134997 * Ractangle * (-14) /* G# */
11:49:57 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135063&oldid=135053 * TheMCoder * (+176) /* python code: */
11:52:16 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135064&oldid=135063 * TheMCoder * (+0) /* Overview */
11:54:44 <esolangs> [[User:TheMCoder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135065 * TheMCoder * (+64) Created page with "I am TheMCoder. === My inventions === [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]]"
11:55:54 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135066&oldid=135064 * TheMCoder * (+45)
11:56:30 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135067&oldid=135066 * TheMCoder * (-26)
11:57:49 <esolangs> [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135068&oldid=135067 * TheMCoder * (+3) /* Overview */
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12:19:08 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135069&oldid=135000 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Words */
12:29:25 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135070&oldid=135069 * Ractangle * (-30) /* Hello, world! */
12:30:05 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135071&oldid=135070 * Ractangle * (+10) /* A+B Problem */
12:31:26 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135072&oldid=135071 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Sub-words */
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13:51:22 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135073&oldid=135060 * Unname4798 * (+133)
13:52:27 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135074&oldid=135073 * Unname4798 * (+61)
13:52:52 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135075&oldid=135074 * Unname4798 * (+1)
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14:19:30 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135076&oldid=135026 * Unname4798 * (+0)
14:21:41 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135077&oldid=135076 * Unname4798 * (+1)
14:28:21 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135078 * Unname4798 * (+300) Created page with "Shorter code Burn is a vriant of [[Burn]]. == Commands == [Wolfram rule number to emulate here] == Examples == Wolfram rule 110: 110 == Computational class == Shorter code Burn is Turing complete, because it can emulate rule 110. [[Category:Languages]] [[Ca
14:28:49 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135079&oldid=134685 * Unname4798 * (+48)
14:29:01 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135080&oldid=135078 * Unname4798 * (+1) fix typo
14:29:24 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135081&oldid=135080 * Unname4798 * (+1) use indentation for monospace font
14:34:33 <esolangs> [[Shorter code Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135082&oldid=135081 * Unname4798 * (+7) Better Burn can simulate all 256 rules
14:44:54 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135083&oldid=134863 * PrySigneToFry * (+66)
14:48:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135084&oldid=135039 * Tommyaweosme * (-104)
14:55:49 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/colornames]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135085 * Tommyaweosme * (+488) Created page with "<span style="color:skyblue">tommy</span><span style="color:royalblue">aweosme</span> <span style="color:red">unname</span><span style="color:orange>4798</span> ais<span style="color:magenta">5</span><span style="color:blue">2</span><span style
15:02:23 <esolangs> [[Brainmaze]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135086 * Tommyaweosme * (+426) Created page with "Brainmaze is a maze solver that also executes brainfuck code. It turns right every time it hits a wall. <pre>=</pre> is subtract instead of <pre>-</pre> Same with: = - > } < { The pointer is v^<> == Ascii loop == |---| |>.+| | | |---| This is the only
15:03:26 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/tabs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135087 * Tommyaweosme * (+105) Created page with "[[User:Tommyaweosme|user]] - [[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]] - [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist|esolang list]]"
15:03:39 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135088&oldid=135084 * Tommyaweosme * (+28)
15:03:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135089&oldid=135024 * Tommyaweosme * (+28)
15:16:18 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135090&oldid=135088 * Unname4798 * (-34) revert this page to the revision by [[User:Tommyaweosme|<span style="color:SkyBlue;">tommy</span>]][[User talk:Tommyaweosme|<span style="color:RoyalBlue;">aweosme</span>]]
15:16:34 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135091 * Tommyaweosme * (+1396) Created page with "# [[directionation]] june 3 # [[driftdown]] june 4 # [[BFshort]] june 4 # [[ulsl]] june 4 # [[slimey]] june 5 # [[cocomelon]] june 5 # [[tc2]] june 5 # [[2025]] june 5 # [[lunchable]] june 6 # [[coolfudge]] june 6 # [[TAbrain]] june 7 # [[coolbean
15:18:51 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135092&oldid=135079 * Unname4798 * (+61) dates
15:19:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135093&oldid=135091 * Tommyaweosme * (+13) fixing redlinks
15:19:15 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135094&oldid=135093 * Tommyaweosme * (+27)
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15:30:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135095&oldid=130287 * Unname4798 * (+197) v1.1 adds Unicode support and infinite dimensions
15:32:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/colornames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135096&oldid=135085 * Unname4798 * (+212)
15:37:00 <esolangs> [[Brainmaze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135097&oldid=135086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) Categories
15:38:09 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135098&oldid=135095 * Unname4798 * (+14) Correct commands in the legacy version (V1.0)
15:39:49 <esolangs> [[Brainmaze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135099&oldid=135097 * Unname4798 * (+0) update ascii loop
15:40:18 <esolangs> [[Better Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135100&oldid=135077 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) See also
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15:43:23 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135101&oldid=135092 * Unname4798 * (+18) number a list
15:53:04 <korvo> Contemplating {{infobox bf variant}}. Kind of hoping that somebody's already done it and it's just not widely used.
16:51:46 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135102&oldid=135072 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Cat program */
16:54:31 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135103&oldid=135102 * Ractangle * (+4) /* A+B Problem */
16:55:24 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135104&oldid=135103 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello, world! */
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17:12:03 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135105&oldid=135098 * Tommyaweosme * (-194) v1.1 is not official please dont add it
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17:54:28 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135106&oldid=134793 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Commands */
17:54:52 <esolangs> [[SPIKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135107&oldid=135106 * Ractangle * (-100) /* Commands */
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18:42:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/Shell]] to [[LJAPL]]
18:44:48 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135110&oldid=135108 * Ractangle * (-498)
18:48:30 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135111&oldid=135110 * Ractangle * (+82)
19:00:40 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135112&oldid=135111 * Ractangle * (+171)
19:01:11 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135113&oldid=135015 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Esolangs */
19:06:40 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135114&oldid=134649 * Ractangle * (-18) /* Deadfish implementation */
19:07:09 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135115&oldid=135062 * Ractangle * (-18) /* CLFCE */
19:07:27 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135116&oldid=135114 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Deadfish implementation */
19:19:05 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135117&oldid=135116 * Ractangle * (-59) /* Block-CLFCE */
19:20:33 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135118&oldid=135117 * Ractangle * (+48) /* Block-CLFCE */
19:21:02 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135119&oldid=135118 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Block-CLFCE */
19:21:54 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135120&oldid=135119 * Ractangle * (+6)
19:26:18 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135121&oldid=135120 * Ractangle * (+18)
19:26:33 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135122&oldid=135121 * Ractangle * (+1)
19:27:05 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135123&oldid=135122 * Ractangle * (+3)
19:27:26 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135124&oldid=135123 * Ractangle * (-22)
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19:48:57 <esolangs> [[Ironlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135125&oldid=127434 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Examples */
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20:22:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135126&oldid=135038 * Tommyaweosme * (+226) /* Better Burn */
20:29:31 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135127 * Tommyaweosme * (+687) Created page with "{{lowercase}} ''Please discuss theories about this in the talk page of my-new-esolang.txt'' my-new-esolang.txt is an esolang that was rescued from an old hard drive in August 6, 2024 by [[User:Tommyaweosme]]. The hard drive was of his, but unfortunately h
20:29:43 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135128&oldid=135127 * Tommyaweosme * (+1)
20:30:21 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135129&oldid=135090 * Tommyaweosme * (+34) remember what they did on conwaylife?
20:30:53 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135130&oldid=135094 * Tommyaweosme * (+52)
20:31:13 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135131&oldid=135128 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) grammar
20:59:25 <salpynx> ais523: can you remember whether Burn was meant to be TC? From looking at it in the past I'd assumed it wasn't obviously TC. It might be TC somehow, but certainly not via that rule 110 tiling.
20:59:33 <salpynx> It just struck me that knowing whether it was designed to be TC via a weakly-universal construction would reveal how complex the tiling deformation had to be. Specifically, there would have to be a infinite right tiling of some part, and an infinite left tiling of a different part.
20:59:46 <salpynx> Currently I'd assumed from the example there has to be a tiling deformation to do anything interesting, but only simple enough to get a single clean ON cell to run a vanilla rule110 from the most basic start seed. (i.e. Nothing to do with TCness.)
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21:02:14 <ais523> salpynx: I believe a) the Burn language itself is TC, but b) the example program is not a demonstration of that
21:02:46 <ais523> as in, that rule 110 interpreter doesn't prove TCness, but it would have been possible to demonstrate TCness using a different program
21:04:37 <salpynx> Thanks, that confirms the basic assumptions I made. I hadn't given much thought to how it might be TC, just on running a basic r110.
21:05:45 <ais523> I do vaguely remember that implementing a (more complex) cellular automaton seemed like the best path to make a TCness proof, so i picked the first nontrivial one that came to mind as a proof of concept
21:06:43 <ais523> or, at this point it's not so much a memory as a reconstruction based on available evidence and what I know of my own personality
21:07:52 <salpynx> I did notice the recent 'I wonder if there a language like that on the wiki..' comment :) (I relate to that too, coming up with the same idea multiple times)
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21:09:46 <korvo> salpynx: I noticed your BB page. Cool idea! Looking forward to more. A couple authors have built similar inequalities, and I think eventually we'll want to play Snakes & Ladders with them in some sort of automatic solver.
21:10:11 <ais523> I think salpynx's BB page is basically a proof of "busy beavers are incompressible", which makes sense when you think about it but which I hadn't noticed before
21:12:26 <salpynx> Thanks for checking it makes some kind of sense, it was me condensing my thoughts on null programs I started in the channel. I didn't mention null programs once on that page, but it's the same idea.
21:12:34 <ais523> that said, by a counting argument, it only excludes about half the machines even if you have a theoretically perfect decompression algorithm built into the interpreter – the number of possible compressed representations is less than half the number of possible programs, so the other half have to be incompressible
21:13:19 <ais523> however, it "intuitively" excludes just about every program constructed by hand – those tend to follow patterns that make compressing them easier
21:14:35 <ais523> on Code Golf Stack Exchange, there was a competition where programs in the competition took it in turns to delete bytes from each other, and the winner was the last to crash – so writing a program was a combination of tolerance to byte deletions, and trying to work out where the meaningful code in the opponents' program was (i.e. the code that was critical and deleting it would break it)
21:14:36 <salpynx> korvo: is there an existing proof that bb numbers must be strictly increasing?
21:15:14 <ais523> and I won that by implementing a compression algorithm, and deleting whatever character produced the most compressible result – it was very good at finding the meaningful cod
21:15:43 <ais523> salpynx: for Turing machines, yes, because you can have unused states – in the general case I believe the answer is no (e.g. take Lenguage as a stupid special case of that)
21:15:47 <korvo> salpynx: I can think of a couple handwaves that they must increase in both n and k, but I don't know if there's a rigorous proof in the literature.
21:16:51 <korvo> It's as ais523 said for states. For symbols, I think that you have to show that a symbol could be unused, which might require remapping some states with an NP-hard recoloring problem.
21:17:27 <ais523> symbols are more difficult unless you have a "stay in place" transition in which case it's trivial
21:19:05 <korvo> Another way of showing BBs champs are incompressible is via Kolmogorov-Chaitin; suppose not, then any compressor would squeeze bits of Chaitin's omega from any such champ.
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21:20:51 <ais523> you can almost prove it for symbols by saying "run the same way until you would halt, then replace the halt transition with a write of the new symbol, then have all the transition rules for the new symbol halt"
21:21:09 <korvo> I do think that the inelegance of the BB champs found so far is suggestive of this. Encoding 3x+1 is straightforward; picking a small starting point that makes 3x+1 go for a long time is tricky. It's Kolmogorov-unlikely that a BB champ based on this would have an elegant starting point.
21:21:25 <ais523> but that isn't quite correct because it isn't 100% obvious that there's a transition you can replace the halt transition with which will ever get back to the same cell on the tape, even though you have a free choice of states to enter and directions to move the tape head in
21:22:18 <salpynx> I had a feeling I was probably saying something that had already been said before about compressibility. With maths, it's probably better to aim to say things that are true, over things that are interesting.
21:22:47 <ais523> well, you can conjecture things that are interesting, as long as you don't claim that they're true without proof
21:24:18 <korvo> ais523: Here's an idea. What if we replace the 1RB convention with 2RB? Like, you have to write the extra symbol on your first move. And maybe all you do after that is move back and swap it back to 1 like intended, which I think you can always smuggle into the state space by reusing the new symbol later by *swapping* 1 and 2.
21:24:52 <korvo> That only gives a constant number of steps, and doesn't affect BB shift at all, but it'd be enough for now.
21:24:54 <ais523> korvo: I was considering that but couldn't make it work
21:25:18 <ais523> the problem is that 1RB isn't just the first transition of the program – it's the transition for state A and symbol 0
21:25:36 <ais523> and that can come up at other times later in the program too, when moving sideways might break the semantics
21:29:12 <korvo> Oh, yeah. I guess I have two thoughts. One has tape like 0[0]0 -> 02[0] -> 0[2]1 -> 00[1]. States are A, B, A, B.
21:29:59 <korvo> And another is like 0[0]0 -> 02[0] -> 0[2]0, states A, B, A, but after that, 1 and 2 are swapped.
21:31:00 <korvo> Oh! I see. Yeah, okay. Later in the program. Sorry, I get it now.
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23:12:00 <esolangs> [[AnnoyStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135132&oldid=127197 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+215) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the AnnoyStack programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
23:14:05 <esolangs> [[AnnoyStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135133&oldid=135132 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+151) Added an example which prints the ASCII characters in ascending order of their codes.
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00:38:43 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135134&oldid=135129 * Tommyaweosme * (+104)
00:46:35 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/colornames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135135&oldid=135096 * Tommyaweosme * (+155)
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01:40:05 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135136 * TheMCoder * (+74) Created page with "Binary Insanity is an esolang created by [[User:TheMCoder|User:TheMCoder]]"
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01:51:25 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135137&oldid=135136 * TheMCoder * (+1414)
01:52:49 <esolangs> [[User:TheMCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135138&oldid=135065 * TheMCoder * (+21) /* My inventions */
01:52:58 <esolangs> [[User:TheMCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135139&oldid=135138 * TheMCoder * (+5) /* My inventions */
01:56:04 <korvo> Well, this is curious. I figured out a stack in Brainfuck which grows backwards and upwards.
01:57:02 <korvo> Er, that doesn't make sense. I mean that I have a top-of-stack cell at a low fixed offset (and all other registers below that offset), and then the stack deepens upward by copying the entire stack two cells up on every push.
02:12:02 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135140&oldid=135134 * Tommyaweosme * (-104) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/135134|135134]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]])
02:19:35 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135141&oldid=135137 * TheMCoder * (+90) /* Examples */
02:20:08 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135142&oldid=135141 * TheMCoder * (+6) /* hello world */
02:21:04 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135143&oldid=135142 * TheMCoder * (-1) /* hello world */
02:52:45 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135144&oldid=135143 * TheMCoder * (+1031) /* hello world */
02:53:04 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135145&oldid=135144 * TheMCoder * (-4) /* hello world */
02:55:29 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135146&oldid=135145 * TheMCoder * (+36) /* hello world */
02:55:49 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135147&oldid=135146 * TheMCoder * (+7) /* hello world */
02:56:19 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135148&oldid=135147 * TheMCoder * (+36) /* hello world */
02:57:06 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135149&oldid=135148 * TheMCoder * (+29) /* hello world */
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03:42:01 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker v1.1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135150 * Unname4798 * (+432) tommyaweosme reverted [[Brainfucker]] for a horrible reason
03:42:42 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker v1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135151&oldid=135150 * Unname4798 * (+16) fix commands and examples
03:44:52 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker v1.1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135152&oldid=135151 * Unname4798 * (+4) update 123
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03:48:12 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135153&oldid=135101 * Unname4798 * (+93) add [[Brainfucker v1.1]]
03:51:00 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker v1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135154&oldid=135152 * Unname4798 * (-2) fix commands
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04:04:40 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135155&oldid=135131 * Unname4798 * (+216)
04:06:35 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135156&oldid=135155 * Unname4798 * (+1) This language uses ASCII
04:08:26 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135157&oldid=135156 * Unname4798 * (+16)
04:10:43 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135158&oldid=135157 * Unname4798 * (+54)
04:12:25 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135159&oldid=135158 * Unname4798 * (-55)
04:12:59 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135160&oldid=135159 * Unname4798 * (+0)
04:13:47 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135161&oldid=135160 * Unname4798 * (+0)
04:15:43 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135162&oldid=135161 * Unname4798 * (+10)
04:18:44 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135163&oldid=135162 * Unname4798 * (-242)
04:22:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135164 * Unname4798 * (+294) Created page with "I've reverse-engineered the examples: P - output ROT60 (numbers, Latin lowercase letters, Latin uppercase characters except I) I - sets accumulator to user input, if before P, then output the user input [ - ROT1 a chatacter >n- - If accumulator is
04:55:26 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135165&oldid=135149 * TheMCoder * (+13) /* Interpreter */
05:09:55 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135166&oldid=132671 * Unname4798 * (+1)
05:11:20 <zzo38> I think that the working of locales and i18n in many computer systems (including UNIX) is not very good and could be done better. Paper size does not belong in the locale; it is a part of the printer driver configuration. Monetary formats would be according to the data being displayed, so also not the locale.
05:12:26 <zzo38> Date/time formats would be the locale, although using an identifier or a language code or country code is not the way to do it; date/time formats can be defined separately and are not necessarily going to be a Gregorian calendar. Character classification and case conversion should depend on what character set(s) you are using.
05:13:48 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135167&oldid=135165 * TheMCoder * (+65) /* Interpreter */
05:14:25 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135168&oldid=135167 * TheMCoder * (+37) /* Overview */
05:14:48 <zzo38> (strftime is not suitable for i18n)
05:17:02 <zzo38> Units of measurement could belong with the locale, although it is not always appropriate to use them (although sometimes it will be); often it is appropriate to ignore them.
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05:24:21 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135169&oldid=135168 * TheMCoder * (+194) /* Interpreter */
05:24:52 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135170&oldid=135169 * TheMCoder * (-2) /* Interpreter */
05:25:03 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135171&oldid=135170 * TheMCoder * (-1) /* Interpreter */
05:25:21 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135172&oldid=135171 * TheMCoder * (-112) /* Interpreter */
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05:31:21 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135173&oldid=135166 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/135166|135166]] by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]): the About and Policy pages call it Esolang
05:35:59 <korvo> Main Page isn't protected?
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07:58:49 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135174&oldid=135140 * PrySigneToFry * (+763)
08:02:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135175&oldid=133194 * PrySigneToFry * (+94)
08:03:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135176&oldid=135175 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
08:15:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135177 * PrySigneToFry * (+118) rA gio zHV yu6H mLH fev FLH Fnu8, wo hiV t1 x8H De8 NxL.
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08:36:55 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135178&oldid=135083 * PrySigneToFry * (+382)
08:50:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135179&oldid=135174 * Unname4798 * (-200)
08:51:40 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135180&oldid=135179 * Unname4798 * (+4)
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09:20:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:JSInstruction]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135181 * Ractangle * (+141) Created page with "that is a neat concept ~~~~"
09:25:17 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135182&oldid=131198 * Gilbert189 * (+43)
10:12:10 <esolangs> [[LDPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135183&oldid=60817 * Ractangle * (-177)
10:15:25 <esolangs> [[Lightlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135184&oldid=116809 * Ractangle * (+2175) and?
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10:23:06 <esolangs> [[PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135185&oldid=131055 * Unname4798 * (-3)
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10:42:15 <esolangs> [[Marbles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135186&oldid=115590 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Display */
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11:40:27 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r
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12:21:22 <ais523> <korvo> Main Page isn't protected? ← changes by non-admins on it are positive on average, and vandalism is likely to get reverted, so so far we haven't seen the need
12:22:31 <ais523> it is protected against renaming, because there's no legitimate reason to do that
12:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ais523 * moved [[Ractangle]] to [[User:Ractangle]] over redirect: user pages should be in userspace although pages about esolang creators are allowed in mainspace, they should be in third person and edited primarily by people other than the user concerned
12:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ais523 * moved [[Talk:Ractangle]] to [[User talk:Ractangle]] over redirect: user pages should be in userspace although pages about esolang creators are allowed in mainspace, they should be in third person and edited primarily by people other than the user concerned
12:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ais523 * Ais523 deleted redirect [[User:Ractangle]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Ractangle]]"
12:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ais523 * Ais523 deleted redirect [[User talk:Ractangle]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:Ractangle]]"
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12:31:36 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/String arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135189&oldid=134335 * Gilbert189 * (+34)
12:31:51 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/String arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135190&oldid=135189 * Gilbert189 * (+2)
13:10:58 <esolangs> [[Lawrence J. Krakauer's decimal computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135191&oldid=134888 * B jonas * (+162)
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13:57:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135192&oldid=133986 * Ais523 * (+332) /* category:joke proofs */ are those really appropriate for the site?
14:05:49 <esolangs> [[NEWS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135193&oldid=130009 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Do Nothing */
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15:29:38 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135194&oldid=134886 * Qawtykit * (+322) added two new commands and truth machine example
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15:45:17 <esolangs> [[Binary Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135195&oldid=135172 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Categories
15:45:58 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135196&oldid=135163 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
15:47:28 <esolangs> [[JSInstruction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135197&oldid=87988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
15:48:22 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker v1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135198&oldid=135154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) See also
15:48:56 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135199&oldid=135105 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) See also
15:51:39 <esolangs> [[Marbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135200&oldid=135186 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+175) Categories
15:54:34 <esolangs> [[Apers Assembly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135201&oldid=94498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* External Links */ Deadlink
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17:07:47 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135202&oldid=135180 * Unname4798 * (+39)
17:11:45 <esolangs> [[Anything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135203&oldid=133042 * Unname4798 * (+54) Please, don't turn this into a sandbox!
17:12:09 <esolangs> [[Anything]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135204&oldid=135203 * Unname4798 * (+1) fix brainfuck reverse cat
17:15:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135205&oldid=135164 * Unname4798 * (-1) fix typos
17:19:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135206&oldid=135205 * Unname4798 * (+60) examples
17:19:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135207&oldid=135206 * Unname4798 * (+3) fix examples
17:19:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135208&oldid=135207 * Unname4798 * (-1)
17:32:31 <ais523> I am concerned about that "Anything" page, it doesn't seem to have a clear purpose and may be an attempt at ban evasion
17:34:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135209&oldid=135202 * Ais523 * (-606) revert to the last version that was created by the user this page was about if a userpage is complying with the rules, it should be left in a state that matches the user's intent
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17:51:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135210&oldid=135209 * Unname4798 * (+606) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/135209|135209]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) (this page was reverted by Ais523 for a horrible reason)
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19:16:27 <int-e> Interestingly the "Anything" page predates the Sandbox drama... but yeah it looks like a pretty bad idea.
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19:28:37 <korvo> Hm, there's no page for macro languages as a concept. Wikipedia has the concept of macros but not the language-specific stuff like Shutt-abstractiveness.
19:36:10 <korvo> Unrelated: trying to work out Brainfuck stack manipulations. I think I need to build a zipper on the stack if I want to fold over it; my working space is in the *middle* of the stack, with cells above and below it.
20:06:28 <korvo> Related: Does anybody have a short algebraic Brainfuck optimizer that doesn't have many dependencies? I have one written in RPython but the dependency chain is a little long.
20:07:06 <korvo> ...I guess I could just run my existing code under CPython 2.7. Do I want a long dependency chain or an insecure one?
20:22:00 <b_jonas> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-08-02.html#lbe => correction, I'm joined to guild that keeps frequently changing how its trilime guild logo is colored, and that includes a rainbow coloring sometimes
20:24:16 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135211&oldid=135104 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Words */
20:24:29 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135212&oldid=135211 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Cat program */
20:26:23 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135213&oldid=135212 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Examples */
20:29:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135214&oldid=134992 * Ractangle * (-12) /* Q */
20:48:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135215&oldid=135214 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/135214|135214]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ractangle|Ractangle]] ([[User talk:Ractangle|talk]]): Unexplained removal
21:00:49 <esolangs> [[Ractangle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135216 * Ractangle * (+28) Redirected page to [[User:Ractangle]]
21:02:38 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135217&oldid=135187 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Esolangs */
21:05:48 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135218&oldid=133128 * Ractangle * (-9) /* Commands */
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21:06:58 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135219&oldid=135218 * Ractangle * (+27)
21:07:55 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135220&oldid=135219 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Commands */
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21:33:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Ractangle]]": cross-namespace redirect; mainspace pages about authors are different from user pages and so a redirect is inappropriate; see [[Esolang:Authors]]
21:35:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Ais523 * changed block settings for [[User:Unname4798]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): repeatedly messing with the sandbox instructions, in a way that could confuse new users; repeatedly creating a misleading homoglyph variant of the sandbox; editing another user's userpage apparently against their
21:35:31 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135221&oldid=135210 * Ais523 * (-606) Reverted edit by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
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21:38:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135222&oldid=135208 * Tommyaweosme * (+457)
21:38:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/colornames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135223&oldid=135135 * Tommyaweosme * (-150)
21:38:47 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/colornames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135224&oldid=135223 * Tommyaweosme * (-5)
21:41:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135225&oldid=135222 * Tommyaweosme * (+109)
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21:55:51 <esolangs> [[Bananaban]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135226&oldid=90851 * 1hals * (+170) add note
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00:45:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Qawtykit * uploaded "[[File:Scratchfunvideogame.png]]": Fun Video Game implementation in Scratch
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00:47:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Qawtykit * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Scratchfunvideogame.png]]": made it a little smaller
01:09:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135229&oldid=135192 * Tommyaweosme * (+206) /* category:joke proofs */
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01:14:07 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135230&oldid=134921 * Qawtykit * (+889) Added Scratch and Uyjhmn n implementations
01:53:02 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135231&oldid=135221 * Tommyaweosme * (+39)
02:57:07 <esolangs> [[Bananaban]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135232&oldid=135226 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
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03:10:50 <esolangs> [[Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135233&oldid=134284 * TheCanon2 * (-11) Found cases when the 1e-16 constant may need to be adjusted to account for weird floating point artithmetic.
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05:08:53 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798/copy of tommyaweosmes userpage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135234 * Unname4798 * (+188) I am blocked from editing [[User:Tommyaweosme]]
05:11:41 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135235&oldid=133378 * Xff * (+11)
05:12:08 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798/copy of tommyaweosmes userpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135236&oldid=135234 * Unname4798 * (+122)
05:13:57 <korvo> Sheesh. Okay, finally got Erdös-Lagarias implemented: https://github.com/MostAwesomeDude/bb-gauge/blob/main/bfm/erdos-lagarias.bfm
05:14:38 <korvo> This is that one statement that, for k>8, 2**k isn't expressible as distinct powers of three; 2**k always has at least one 2 trit when written in ternary.
05:14:54 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135237&oldid=135235 * Xff * (-30)
05:15:44 <korvo> My macros are really bad but I confirmed that this machine halts if I start at k=1 and appears to run indefinitely at k=8.
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05:31:47 <korvo> I am nearly done with my Brainfuck adventures. I want one more, and I think I'm going to try to encode Collatz.
05:32:10 <korvo> I have a memory layout, but it requires computed offsets, and so I might need to think on it for a while longer.
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05:59:27 <salpynx> korvo: I've been thinking about Turing machines a lot recently and have a sketch of an 8 symbol no-idea-how-many-states yet bf machine. Looks like you are writing _in_ bf. I haven't decided yet if actually creating a bf TM is worth completing right now
06:00:04 <korvo> salpynx: I haven't seen BF in TM yet. Cool idea.
06:00:51 <salpynx> I wrote something to convert n-symbol TMs to 2 symbol versions, so that could produce a 2 symbol bf Turing machine once that was complete.
06:01:53 <esolangs> [[Jello]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135238 * Xff * (+1681) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''jello''' is a two stack esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] where the only control flow is skip, reverse and evaluate == memory/script == as said before jello uses two stacks. jello has a pointer which points to the current stack. each stack can hold number and str
06:03:18 <salpynx> it converted ais523's (2, 14) Grill tag to a 107 state two symbol machine, and appears to run the one code example I found correctly.
06:04:57 <salpynx> I think an 8 symbol bf machine is more interesting than the perhaps more obvious 9 symbol one (8 bf commands + blank). I think using ] as blank will work, but it might need testing
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06:20:57 <esolangs> [[Jello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135239&oldid=135238 * Xff * (+99) /* syntax */
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06:27:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135240&oldid=135215 * Xff * (+12) /* J */
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07:24:01 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135241&oldid=135199 * Unname4798 * (+1) match brackets
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07:30:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135242&oldid=135225 * Unname4798 * (+67) Translation to my-new-esolang
07:30:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135243&oldid=135242 * Unname4798 * (+178)
07:30:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135244&oldid=135243 * Unname4798 * (+27)
07:32:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135245&oldid=135244 * Unname4798 * (+0)
07:33:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135246&oldid=135245 * Unname4798 * (+14) lowercase
07:43:40 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135247&oldid=135217 * Ractangle * (+75)
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08:10:01 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135248&oldid=135231 * PrySigneToFry * (+183) If this is incorrect, undo this.
08:15:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker v1.1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135249&oldid=135198 * Unname4798 * (+79) Lifecycle: Brainfucker versions last 7 days, release every 3 days
08:17:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135250&oldid=90120 * PrySigneToFry * (+614) /* The riddle in register is just like I registering in https://wiki.xdi8.top. */ new section
08:19:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:.png]]"
08:20:47 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135252&oldid=126720 * PrySigneToFry * (+110)
08:24:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135253&oldid=135002 * PrySigneToFry * (+326) Fixed my Introduce
08:32:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:0 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135254&oldid=128589 * PrySigneToFry * (+101) /* Another Quine by PSTF */ new section
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09:20:55 <esolangs> [[HZ3funge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135255 * PrySigneToFry * (+6048) Created page with "HZ3funge is an Esolang designed by PSTF. It is designed for even complex Befunge. == Syntax == === Basic syntax === Every layer must saved as a file, just like these: * Sample program ** layer1.h3f ** layer2.h3f ** layer3.h3f ** ** main.exe All layers must n
09:38:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135256&oldid=135240 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
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09:45:53 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135257&oldid=135230 * PkmnQ * (+105) Momema will be on every program page one day
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10:59:24 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798/copy of tommyaweosmes userpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135258&oldid=135236 * Unname4798 * (+118)
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11:00:21 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798/copy of tommyaweosmes userpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135259&oldid=135258 * Unname4798 * (-42)
11:03:09 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798/copy of tommyaweosmes userpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135260&oldid=135259 * Unname4798 * (+28)
11:06:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135261&oldid=135246 * Unname4798 * (+0)
11:12:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135262&oldid=135261 * Unname4798 * (+217) Provide HTML/JS
11:13:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135263&oldid=135262 * Unname4798 * (+0) format the code
11:14:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135264&oldid=135263 * Unname4798 * (+0)
11:15:17 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135265&oldid=135196 * Unname4798 * (+10)
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11:16:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] to [[My-new-esolang.txt/Talk]]: It's hard to shorten the link to the [[Talk:my-new-esolang]]
11:17:42 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135268&oldid=135265 * Unname4798 * (+0)
11:18:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Unname4798 * moved [[My-new-esolang.txt/Talk]] to [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] over redirect
11:18:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Unname4798 * Unname4798 deleted redirect [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[My-new-esolang.txt/Talk]]"
11:18:27 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt/Talk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135271&oldid=135270 * Unname4798 * (-37) Blanked the page
11:18:55 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135272&oldid=135268 * Unname4798 * (+18)
11:19:20 <esolangs> [[My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135273&oldid=135272 * Unname4798 * (+1)
11:24:02 <esolangs> [[Semafor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135274 * Ttulka * (+3971) init Semafor
11:24:53 <esolangs> [[Semafor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135275&oldid=135274 * Ttulka * (+2) fix formatting
11:28:42 <esolangs> [[User:Ttulka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135276&oldid=130872 * Ttulka * (+263) add Semafor
11:29:33 <esolangs> [[User:Ttulka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135277&oldid=135276 * Ttulka * (+0) /* My esolangs */
11:31:21 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135278&oldid=133675 * Ttulka * (+215) add Semafor
11:32:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135279&oldid=135256 * Ttulka * (+14) add Semafor
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11:37:13 <esolangs> [[Semafor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135280&oldid=135275 * Ttulka * (-1) /* Hello World */ formatting
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12:01:31 <esolangs> [[Jello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135281&oldid=135239 * Gggfr * (+224) /* examples */
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12:36:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135282&oldid=135269 * Tommyaweosme * (+214) /* "smoke" ~my cousin */
12:43:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135283&oldid=135282 * Tommyaweosme * (+89)
12:48:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:RACTANGLE APROVED.png]]"
12:49:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:RU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135285 * Ractangle * (+156) Created page with "[[File:RACTANGLE APROVED.png|100px]] ~~~~"
13:20:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Satarcrimp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135286&oldid=125375 * Ractangle * (+172)
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14:30:22 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135287&oldid=135194 * PkmnQ * (+103) Quine time
14:35:36 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135288&oldid=135287 * PkmnQ * (+289) /* Added commands */ Make it a bit easier to quine
14:37:23 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135289&oldid=135288 * PkmnQ * (+4) /* Examples */ Update quine
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14:50:09 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1308.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
14:52:39 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here as a hard trigger. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
14:59:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135290&oldid=135283 * Unname4798 * (+32)
14:59:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135291&oldid=135290 * Unname4798 * (+203) sign my answer
15:00:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135292&oldid=135291 * Unname4798 * (-14)
15:00:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135293&oldid=135292 * Unname4798 * (+1)
15:02:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135294&oldid=135293 * Unname4798 * (-222) undo my edits
15:03:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135295&oldid=135294 * Unname4798 * (+211)
15:04:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135296&oldid=135295 * Unname4798 * (-10)
15:05:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135297&oldid=135296 * Unname4798 * (+1)
15:07:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135298&oldid=135297 * Unname4798 * (+1)
15:07:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135299&oldid=135298 * Unname4798 * (-1)
15:09:54 <esolangs> [[Semafor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135300&oldid=135280 * Ttulka * (+418) style table
15:10:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135301&oldid=135299 * Unname4798 * (-12)
15:11:29 <esolangs> [[Semafor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135302&oldid=135300 * Ttulka * (+6) phrasing
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15:41:36 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135303&oldid=135257 * Qawtykit * (+370) add implemntations
15:53:46 <esolangs> [[Jello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135304&oldid=135281 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
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16:22:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135305&oldid=135301 * Tommyaweosme * (+81)
16:29:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135306&oldid=135305 * Unname4798 * (+40) The smoke is INFINITE!
16:30:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135307&oldid=135306 * Unname4798 * (+228)
16:57:11 <fungot> int-e: ( 1 fnord cursor; c-x c-e will then send scheme code to be evaluated, in sequence: 1 r1 fnord..., fnord
16:57:23 <int-e> fungot: you could've just said no
16:57:23 <fungot> int-e: they're a bit too fine words for that...
17:33:53 <esolangs> [[2b]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135308 * Tommyaweosme * (+540) Created page with "2b is an optimization of [[2D BF]] with 6-9 commands depending on how you count. == Commands == > go right v down, resets x coordinates and saves old x to variable ^ up, same x coordinates = bit flip (twice in a row changes x to variable) [] brackets . input (done
17:34:05 <esolangs> [[2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135309&oldid=77628 * Tommyaweosme * (+10) added mine
17:34:26 <esolangs> [[2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135310&oldid=135309 * Tommyaweosme * (+11)
17:38:19 <esolangs> [[2b]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135311&oldid=135308 * Tommyaweosme * (-181)
17:38:30 <esolangs> [[2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135312&oldid=135310 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
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19:07:08 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135313&oldid=134729 * Ractangle * (+157) /* Hello World */
19:11:37 <zzo38> Can custom linker scripts be made portable for use on multiple computers (in case you want to add your own sections and your own address calculations for sections, etc)?
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19:22:24 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135314&oldid=135220 * Ractangle * (-48)
19:23:11 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135315&oldid=135314 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
19:25:36 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135316&oldid=135315 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Loping counter */
19:26:22 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135317&oldid=135316 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Commands */
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19:26:41 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135318&oldid=135317 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Loping counter */
19:27:15 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135319&oldid=135318 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Commands */
19:27:56 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135320&oldid=135319 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Loping counter */
19:30:31 <esolangs> [[Symbolic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135321&oldid=78135 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Language overview */
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19:41:57 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135322&oldid=135320 * Ractangle * (-24) /* Commands */
19:46:16 <korvo> I'm in one of those weird moods, like in Dwarf Fortress. I'm going to make yet another Brainfuck page. Ping me here or on the talk if you want something about it to change; I think it needs to exist and I can't find it elsewhere.
19:59:45 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135323&oldid=135248 * Tommyaweosme * (-340) Replaced content with "{{User:Tommyaweosme/tabs}} meow"
20:04:09 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135324 * Corbin * (+1538) Stub out a page on algebra of BF. Saving progress often because connection is questionable.
20:11:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[My-new-esolang.txt/Talk]]": redirect left behind after reverted move
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20:12:39 <ais523> korvo: I will be interested to see what an artifact BF derivative look slike
20:23:53 <ais523> ooh, I see – almost all BF derivatives are an operational semantics, whereas you're trying to build a denotational semantics of BF
20:24:35 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135325&oldid=135324 * Corbin * (+699) /* As a Data Type */ Give a full ADT. Two languages are used to suggest that the semantics are language-independent.
20:25:34 <korvo> ais523: I hope it's not too disappointing. This is a (to-me) necessary stepping stone before writing down anything about perfectoid BF. In particular, I *really* don't like the possibility of unbalanced loops.
20:26:45 <ais523> by unbalanced, do you mean unmatched [ and ], or unmatched < and >?
20:27:25 <ais523> incidentally, it crosses my mind that if the tape is infinite both ways, you can interpret < and > as moving the entire tape rather than the tape pointer
20:28:32 <korvo> I mean unmatched [ and ]. I have to give up on matching < and > but I appreciate why bfmacro does it.
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20:40:25 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that unmatched [ and ] isn't actually a part of BF – interpreters are allowed to reject that in the parser before they even start running
20:40:52 <ais523> I think some interpreters will produce output from input like ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[ but others will notice before they start running
20:41:00 <ais523> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[
20:41:04 <ais523> !bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[
20:41:12 <ais523> `! bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[
20:41:19 <ais523> `! bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
20:41:32 <ais523> that is an interesting error behaviour from HackEso
20:43:45 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135326&oldid=135325 * Corbin * (+2157) Write out two of the standard idioms.
20:44:56 <korvo> ais523: Still chewing on your operational/denotational note. I think it's very operational, but it's in terms of what compiler authors care about: messages exchanged between CPU and memory controller, serialized by clock.
20:46:09 <korvo> Certainly the denotational framing makes it clearer how to use the algebra, but the operational framing is what I'll need if I want to *prove* that all the high-level rewriting is valid. Like, how do you prove that writes commute otherwise?
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20:48:27 <ais523> I guess a denotational semantics for BF-without-I/O is easy: a program is a function from tapes to tapes, except that it can enter an infinite loop so you need a nontermination monad around it
20:48:33 <ais523> and then you can use another monad to add I/O
20:49:22 <ais523> I am not sure if this is actually useful, though
20:49:52 <korvo> Mm, that's definitely a direction that could work. I'm going to do something a bit more fundamental for now, pointing out that there's a monoid and that we should really think of BF* instead of BF.
20:50:38 <korvo> And then that could be extended into something that could carry monads later. I think it would work for the simple case of externally-serialized I/O which pauses the machine.
20:50:47 <ais523> huh, now you're making me think of BF as a concatenative language
20:52:56 <korvo> Category theory's a hell of a drug and my supplier is an NNO-algebra~
20:57:17 <esolangs> [[Deadfish 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135327&oldid=65491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) Categories
20:57:51 <esolangs> [[Gamelang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135328&oldid=124243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
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21:07:31 <b_jonas> "you can interpret < and > as moving the entire tape rather than the tape pointer" => isn't that how brainfuck and Turing-machines always work? the tape metaphor is called that because it is similar to magnetic tape on spools that was used so much in early computers
21:10:07 <b_jonas> not metaphor, the tape is an idealized abstraction for the real spooled magnetic tape
21:10:08 <salpynx> In my bf TM an unmatched ] will indicate the end of the program string, primarily because i'm trying to over-optimise and not add an extra blank symbol, but that gives unmatched ] a strong meaning
21:10:08 <ais523> b_jonas: not in most BF implementations
21:10:26 <ais523> it is how Turing Machines are normally represented, but I don't think simulators use that implementation internally
21:10:29 <korvo> Turing's original metaphor was of a human sitting at a desk with (two) stacks of paper and a spot in front of them that holds a single page. Literally pencil-and-paper.
21:10:37 <ais523> salpynx: this is frequently suggested
21:11:06 <ais523> or, well, mostly in the context of "why does everyone use ! to separate the program from the input rather than ]"
21:11:35 <salpynx> Turing machine bf structure: left-infinte 8-bit per cell tape, left-infinite 1-bit nested-bracket counting stack, finite program store, finite input buffer, right-infinte output
21:13:27 <salpynx> with that online TM simulator, I'm using _ as ], so the blank tape is effectively all close-brackets
21:15:58 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135329&oldid=135326 * Corbin * (+1518) Show off the standard monoid. Y'know, somebody could build a category from this!
21:27:11 <salpynx> program and input: +>++>+++-<+{NUL}ABCD must be encoded to _>+_>_+_+_>_+_+_+_-_<_+___>_>_>_<_>_+_>_- This runs in the TM now. loops are next, then IO, then builtin input formatting
21:31:04 <salpynx> With this 8 symbol TM construction, unmatched [ are not possible, there are infinitely many ] following the user supplied input.
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21:43:45 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135330&oldid=135329 * Corbin * (+451) /* As Idioms */ Enumerate all the idioms I use in my optimizer.
21:48:22 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135331&oldid=134151 * Squareroot12621 * (+76) Added Github repository to == Interpreters ==.
21:50:52 <fizzie> Hrm. Looked at egobf (which is what `! bf uses, rather understandably given where it's from) code, and I _think_ I understand what's happening for `++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[`, but it's quite unintuitive.
21:51:09 <fizzie> The way it appears to work, the routine `optimize` is what turns the source code into a "program"; when it sees a `[` it calls optimize recursively; when it sees a `]` it returns; and when it hits the end of input it assembles in a `FIN` operation, and (crucially) resets `pptr`, the pointer that tells it how far it's gotten in constructing the program.
21:51:10 <esolangs> [[User:Squareroot12621]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135332&oldid=134152 * Squareroot12621 * (+80) Add Too Many Variables!.
21:51:36 <fizzie> So given `++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[`, it first constructs the program corresponding to `++++++++[->++++++++<]>.`, then it does the recursive call. But that recursive call never hits a `]`, so it adds the `FIN` operation and resets the position. After returning from the recursive call, it then puts the opcode corresponding to the `]` at the current position (start of program), hits the end of input
21:51:38 <fizzie> again, and appends the `FIN`.
21:51:48 <fizzie> And the final effect of `++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[` is that at the start of the program there's a "jump-if-nonzero" that's not taken (because the tape is empty), followed by `FIN`, at which point the interpreter exits.
21:54:05 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135333&oldid=135330 * Corbin * (+346) /* As a Monoid */ And add all the rewrites that I use.
21:58:05 <salpynx> appending many extra unmatched ] i.e. `++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[]]]]]]]]` causes HackEso to segfault
21:58:18 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135334&oldid=135333 * Corbin * (+57) /* Listing of Idioms */ One more from my notes which I don't use: detect certain infinite loops in terms of Couch's set() macro.
22:01:29 <fizzie> `` \! bf '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[]]' # a single one is enough for a segfault
22:02:07 <salpynx> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.[]
22:02:09 <ais523> oh wow, BF implementations segfaulting *parsing* the code
22:02:39 <fizzie> Per my understanding, it should ignore everything after the first unmatched `]`, because it causes `optimize` to return from the top-level call; but it also makes it skip adding the program-terminating `FIN`, meaning the interpreter would run off the end of the program.
22:02:55 <fizzie> So arguably it's not a segfault in parsing as such.
22:04:10 <ais523> the parser is just producing an object that doesn't belong to its data type
22:07:16 <fizzie> Funnily enough, fungot and HackEso have somewhat similar brainfuck interpretation strategies, in that both convert the brainfuck into an intermediate representation of sorts. (Although HackEso has more transformations, like turning [-] into `p[0] = 0`-equivalent, and [->>+++<<] into an `p[2] += 3*p[0]; p[0] = 0` style of a thing.)
22:07:16 <fungot> fizzie: oh, bugger it all.
22:07:29 <fizzie> fungot: I didn't mean you should feel bad about that.
22:07:29 <fungot> fizzie: yeah. i have a problem" :) is it possible without reinventing the wheel unnecessarily :) i like it
22:14:20 <ais523> BF's syntax is not a very good form for implementing BF with
22:14:41 <ais523> I think most implementations that do any optimisation at all run-length encode + and -, for example (even fungot does that)
22:14:42 <fungot> ais523: i got a 5 on it. i always have trouble with f64vectors and the blas egg. chicken tells me " what are you
22:15:27 <ais523> my BF implementation in Esimpl doesn't, I guess – its main optimisation is storing numbers in binary rather than unary
22:15:45 <ais523> and it just has increment/decrement routines, not general addition, so run-length-encoding wouldn't help
22:24:18 <esolangs> [[Too Many Variables!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135335 * Squareroot12621 * (+1057) Created page.
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23:23:24 <korvo> ais523: Hopefully easy question: Are computed movements possible in Brainfuck without something like a stack and marker cells?
23:24:03 <korvo> I basically need to be told that no, it's not feasible to represent a graph of natural numbers by giving each node a cell.
23:27:03 <ais523> korvo: it's possible to move a particular distance along the tape without marker cells, although you either need a) a regular pattern of temporary cells in between the useful ones to use as working space (most large BF programs choose to do this anyway), or b) to move the existing data out of the way to leave room for your working
23:28:28 <ais523> the idea is that you move the loop counter along the tape in addition to the tape pointer, so that it's always a fixed distance away from the pointer
23:28:42 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135336&oldid=135334 * Corbin * (+53) Categorize.
23:29:10 <ais523> and by "always" I mean at a known point in the loop
23:29:45 <korvo> ais523: I see. It sounds like I found a special case of this by using a stack with two cells per stack item and using [>>] and [<<] to scroll up and down the stack.
23:30:43 <ais523> you probably found the other common technique, where you use marker cells to mark particularly interesting cells and then move between the interesting cells by looking for the markers
23:31:07 <korvo> I think of it as like a construction crane. The crane has to lift a special cabinet into place in order to incrementally add height to itself.
23:31:42 <korvo> I was marking every occupied stack item. 21 21 21 01 01 01 21 Pairs!
23:32:04 <korvo> I think that it's because of bfmacro's conventions, which leave most cells 0 at most times.
23:32:25 <korvo> So I needed regularly-spaced markers just to not drift off into space.
23:33:20 <ais523> the usually simplest mechanism is to have a "movement track" of regularly spaced cells, which are usually 1, but with a few interesting cells (e.g. the start and end of a queue) as 0
23:44:07 <esolangs> [[Too Many Variables!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135337&oldid=135335 * Squareroot12621 * (+232) Add the special stuff.
23:44:13 <korvo> Yeah, totally makes sense. I'll have to think about this more, but I appreciate your advice and insight.
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23:44:49 <korvo> I think I'm done with semantics of BF for now. If you have any questions, ask them and I'll gladly improve the page, but I've emptied my head.
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23:50:59 <esolangs> [[Light Pattern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135338&oldid=123701 * Rottytooth * (+414) /* External resources */
23:57:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Divmeq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135339&oldid=134226 * TheCanon2 * (+571) Split the operators section into Operations
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00:42:12 <ais523> so in an esolang project I'm working on, I've come across something that is incredibly monad-like, but it doesn't seem to be quite the same
00:42:56 <ais523> it has operations that correspond to Monad's >>= and return, but it doesn't quite obey all the monad laws (in particular, x >>= (\y. return y) does not necessarily return x)
00:43:12 <ais523> and it's used differently
00:43:38 <ais523> also return seems to take an extra argument sometimes
00:44:00 <ais523> an example is a type representing pairs of a value, and some metadata
00:45:02 <ais523> (mx, vx) >>= (my, vy) = (vx (my, vy)) -- which is meant to return a value that has metadata
00:45:06 <ais523> hmm, that return isn't quite right
00:45:47 <ais523> like, the idea is that you have two separate worlds: "raw" values; and "boxed" values which have the metadata
00:46:14 <ais523> boxed values operate on other boxed values by ignoring their own metadata
00:46:45 <ais523> and in order to lift a function up to a boxed function, you basically have to replace all its operations on unboxed values with operations on boxed values
00:46:56 <ais523> I still have not quite worked out all the details, clearly
00:47:11 <ais523> but I'm looking for a general pattern that a) accepts as many monads as possible, ideally all of them, and b) also supports this
00:59:30 <ais523> actually, I suspect that return doesn't exist and what it instead has is a way to define functions in terms of their apply pattern
01:00:03 <ais523> for example, \x f -> (f x) becomes \apply x f -> (apply f x), and that's what you pass to the equivalent of return
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02:06:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:HZ3funge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135340 * PrySigneToFry * (+603) /* About the command "" */ new section
02:11:43 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135341&oldid=135016 * PrySigneToFry * (+6)
02:36:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CPNK * New user account
02:44:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135342&oldid=135253 * CPNK * (+184) introducing myself :3
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