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01:38:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137527&oldid=137526 * Tommyaweosme * (+189)
01:39:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137528&oldid=137527 * Tommyaweosme * (+2)
01:45:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137529&oldid=137528 * None1 * (+338) /* Copyright violation */
01:51:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137530&oldid=137243 * Tommyaweosme * (+3382)
01:52:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137531&oldid=137529 * Tommyaweosme * (+205) /* Copyright violation */
01:54:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137532&oldid=136991 * Tommyaweosme * (+218)
01:56:51 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137533&oldid=137532 * Tommyaweosme * (-244)
02:02:23 <esolangs> [[Kcidea]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137534 * Tommyaweosme * (+470) Created page with "{{lowercase}}kcidea is a language that makes you feel immense pain like you are on fire when you use it. it is comparable to the active denial system. == commands == the only people stupid enough to use this have provided documentation for ''some'' of these commands:
02:03:05 <esolangs> [[Kcidea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137535&oldid=137534 * Tommyaweosme * (+52)
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02:54:46 <esolangs> [[Dotfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137536&oldid=137332 * None1 * (+109) /* Why is it brain-exploding */
03:10:27 <esolangs> [[... Bottles of beer on the wall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137537 * None1 * (+29731) Created page with "... Bottles of beer on the wall is an even more brain-exploding [[brainfuck]] derivative by [[User:None1]]. It is like [[Bottles of beer on the wall]]. But instead of numbers, you use dots! ==Examples== ===One time [[Cat Program]]=== <pre> ......
03:10:42 <esolangs> [[... Bottles of beer on the wall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137538&oldid=137537 * None1 * (-1) /* Cat program] */
03:11:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137539&oldid=137286 * None1 * (+38) /* Non-alphabetic */
03:12:03 <esolangs> [[... Bottles of beer on the wall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137540&oldid=137538 * None1 * (+6)
03:12:52 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137541&oldid=137272 * None1 * (+120) /* My Esolangs */
03:14:16 <esolangs> [[Dead fish +- +.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137542&oldid=137274 * None1 * (+45)
03:17:59 <esolangs> [[PlusOrOutput]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137543&oldid=118648 * None1 * (+1) /* Hello World */
03:20:45 <esolangs> [[PlusOrOutput]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137544&oldid=137543 * None1 * (+1013) /* Interpreter for PlusOrOutput only (in Python) */ Add interpreters in JS
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03:29:01 <zzo38> Which file format can be used if I want a key/value database which is mostly reading and not writing, and the key and value are both sequences of bytes, and that if you find a specific record then you can easily find all records that have the same key as a prefix (and that you can also do so even if there is no such record for the requested key)?
03:39:44 <ais523> zzo38: the last property you talk about sounds like a B+ tree; I know there are database formats based on those
03:40:37 <ais523> if write performance is completely unimportant you could use a list of key/value pairs sorted by the key, and use binary search to find entries
03:42:06 <ais523> if you're looking for more of a standard file format, SQLite should work, storing one table with an index on the key
03:43:09 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137545&oldid=127630 * None1 * (+39) /* Introduction */ PIO and POO are now supported
03:46:45 <esolangs> [[PlusOrOutput]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137546&oldid=137544 * None1 * (+4570) /* Interpreters for both languages in JavaScript */
03:55:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated Shakespeare]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137547 * None1 * (+264) Created page with "You can translate using the wrong language to get wierd translations. --~~~~"
03:56:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137548&oldid=137515 * None1 * (+215)
04:01:24 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with an iterating quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137549 * None1 * (+594) Created page with "'''NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with an iterating quine''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is [[NameErro
04:03:56 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137550&oldid=137260 * None1 * (+443) /* Error simulators */
04:07:23 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137551&oldid=137541 * None1 * (+854) /* My Esolangs */
04:08:17 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137552&oldid=137551 * None1 * (+30)
04:09:05 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137553&oldid=137552 * None1 * (+36) /* My Esolangs */
04:09:11 <esolangs> [[C@++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137554&oldid=133820 * BoundedBeans * (+861) Made the language much more powerful/expressive with new commands
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04:13:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137555&oldid=134527 * None1 * (+313) /* + interpreter using Nope. */
04:15:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137556&oldid=137555 * None1 * (+121) /* + interpreter using Nope. */
04:17:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:C@]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137557&oldid=109970 * None1 * (+275)
04:17:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:C@]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137558&oldid=137557 * None1 * (+12)
04:18:18 <esolangs> [[C@++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137559&oldid=137554 * BoundedBeans * (+353) Added some examples
04:21:54 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137560&oldid=135046 * BoundedBeans * (+123)
04:22:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137561&oldid=137539 * BoundedBeans * (+25)
04:30:57 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137562&oldid=137269 * None1 * (+25)
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04:41:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137563&oldid=137506 * None1 * (+340)
04:45:51 <zzo38> Write performance is not completely unimportant, but read performance is more important. I would also expect that when writes occur, several records will be written at once rather than one at a time (although one at a time is also possible, but less likely).
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04:58:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: if write preformance is *completely* unimportant then you should sort the whole table after each write and do some kind of binary search among sorted records for reading. but a writable B-tree isn't really much worse than that.
04:59:28 <b_jonas> and I think sqlite3 might work decently for what you want
05:01:00 <zzo38> I had considered the SQLite4 format, which is a real key/value database unlike SQLite3.
05:01:17 <b_jonas> well... it's not perfect, if you can have multiples of the key then it might not be the best format, or you need some kind of trick for it where you append a unique identifier column and make the two columns together the primary key, so that you can have just one table WITHOUT ROWID table, rather than a table and a separate index
05:02:32 <b_jonas> if not then you have to put them in one single column where you artificially append something to your key to make it unique
05:03:58 <b_jonas> mind you, the separate index mostly just makes the write performance worse if you make that index contain all columns
05:04:08 <b_jonas> so even a normal table can work
05:05:25 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess just use a normal table with an index covering both the key and value columns, and don't make the key primary or unique since you want to allow it to repeat
05:07:57 <b_jonas> if you want to find all records with a prefix then write a comparison like WHERE key BETWEEN ?1 AND ?2 but you bind ?2 to the same as ?1 incremented by 1 when interpreted as a big-endian number
05:08:24 <b_jonas> so it's as if WHERE key BETWEEN 'one' AND 'onf'
05:08:36 <b_jonas> only you probably use blobs instead of strings
05:10:43 <zzo38> Yes, that would do, although SQL is more than is needed, I think, especially if it is merely a key/value database. I do understand what you mean and had thought of that too but it seems much more complicated than it should be.
05:11:13 <b_jonas> it certainly is, but you don't need to use all the features
05:12:07 <b_jonas> also make sure to read https://sqlite.org/howtocompile.html
05:12:50 <b_jonas> there's a lot of optional features that you usually needn't compile into sqlite3 if you aren't like making debian with a thousand packages depending on sqlite3, and they now have good documentation describing these compile-time settings
05:15:14 <b_jonas> (you've probably read it already, but the documentation is kind of new so I want to mention it)
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05:38:41 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137564&oldid=132867 * PrySigneToFry * (+73) Fixed [[wenyan]] interpreter
05:39:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137565&oldid=136954 * PrySigneToFry * (+35)
05:44:11 <esolangs> [[Translated Die Deutsche Programmiersprache]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137566 * None1 * (+2563) Created page with "There have been lots of horribly translations of esolangs in English and Chinese, this time let's translate one that isn't. '''Translated Die Deutsche Programmiersprache''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is [[Die Deutsche
05:45:06 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137567&oldid=137550 * None1 * (+118) /* Horribly translated variants */
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05:46:53 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137568&oldid=137553 * None1 * (+88) /* My Esolangs */
06:00:57 <esolangs> [[Foo : The term 'foo' is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or operable program. Check the spelling of the name, or if a path was included, verify that the path is correct and try again.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137569&oldid=131324 * None1 * (+33) /* See also */
06:01:52 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137570&oldid=133843 * Yayimhere * (-2222) /* Triangular CPU */
06:02:18 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137571&oldid=137570 * Yayimhere * (-226) /* idea 2 */
06:04:12 <esolangs> [[Is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or operable program. Check the spelling of the name, or if a path was included, verify that the path is correct and try again.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137572&oldid=131489 * None1 * (-14) /* Examples */ no spaces
06:13:08 <esolangs> [[Wow owo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137573 * Yayimhere * (+3332) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''wow owo''' is a [[Cellular automaton]] created by [[User:Yayimhere]] while bored == cell types and interactions == cell types: * <code>#</code> copies itself in every direction(no diags). if 3 come in a horizontal cluster walls form around them(<code
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06:26:29 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137574&oldid=137456 * Ractangle * (+14)
06:36:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137575&oldid=137563 * Ractangle * (+99)
06:37:58 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137576&oldid=137512 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Syntax */
06:39:06 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137577&oldid=137523 * Unname4798 * (+112)
06:40:03 <esolangs> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137578&oldid=137577 * Unname4798 * (+12)
06:41:48 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137579&oldid=137576 * Ractangle * (+0)
06:42:03 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137580&oldid=137579 * Ractangle * (+0)
06:44:44 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137581&oldid=137580 * Ractangle * (+21)
06:44:54 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137582 * PrySigneToFry * (+3069) Created page with " is an Esolang designed by PSTF which inspired from [[Bottles of beer on the wall]]. == Exmaples == === 1-time Cat Program === <pre> ..."
06:45:34 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137583&oldid=137581 * Ractangle * (+1)
06:45:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137584&oldid=137582 * PrySigneToFry * (+64)
06:45:55 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137585&oldid=137583 * Ractangle * (-22)
06:46:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137586&oldid=137561 * PrySigneToFry * (+28)
06:46:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Undelta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137587 * Yayimhere * (+126) Created page with "so would <code>`1</code> push one? --~~~~"
06:48:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137588&oldid=134864 * PrySigneToFry * (+473) /* English */ new section
06:48:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137589&oldid=137588 * PrySigneToFry * (+5) TM
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06:52:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137590&oldid=137044 * PrySigneToFry * (+641) /* I might ! need an English page for . */ new section
06:52:58 -!- tromp has joined.
06:54:08 <esolangs> [[Category:Audio Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137591&oldid=106427 * Ractangle * (+23)
06:54:41 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137592&oldid=137273 * PrySigneToFry * (+39)
06:59:37 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137593&oldid=137422 * PrySigneToFry * (+130)
07:00:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137594&oldid=137586 * PrySigneToFry * (+8)
07:03:16 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137595&oldid=137593 * PrySigneToFry * (+82)
07:03:51 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137596&oldid=137595 * PrySigneToFry * (+20)
07:04:06 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137597&oldid=137596 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
07:10:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137598&oldid=137587 * Yayimhere * (+129)
07:11:26 <esolangs> [[I am sure this is the shortest code for 99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137599&oldid=115858 * PrySigneToFry * (-31036)
07:12:38 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137600 * Yayimhere * (+21) Redirected page to [[Undelta]]
07:23:21 <wWwwW> today somebody had already written a truth machine in word worm. damn
07:25:05 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137601 * Cycwin * (+952) Sdac2
07:28:23 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137602 * Cycwin * (+952) Sdac2
07:32:54 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137603&oldid=137601 * Cycwin * (-770)
07:33:55 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137604&oldid=137602 * Cycwin * (+7)
07:55:25 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137605 * Yayimhere * (+813) Created page with "'''0x80070050''' or '''sorry this file exists'''(which is what this error code is for...for the file existing) is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] inspired by [[An Odd Rewriting System]]. it really just annoys you == memory == there are 3 memory things: * <co
07:56:11 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137606&oldid=137605 * Yayimhere * (+23)
08:00:23 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137607&oldid=137606 * Yayimhere * (+91)
08:03:04 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137608&oldid=137607 * Yayimhere * (+100)
08:05:31 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137609&oldid=137608 * Yayimhere * (+77)
08:10:16 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137610&oldid=137574 * Yayimhere * (+17)
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08:24:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137611&oldid=109641 * Yayimhere * (+142) /* contradiction in computational class proof? */
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09:11:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137612&oldid=137611 * Yayimhere * (+92) /* what was the limitation */
09:12:40 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137613&oldid=137609 * Yayimhere * (+77)
09:19:02 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137614&oldid=137613 * Yayimhere * (+51) /* syntax */
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09:20:20 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137615&oldid=137614 * Yayimhere * (+92)
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09:39:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/rt]] to [[User:Linxium]]
09:39:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Linxium]] to [[Linxium]]
09:39:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Linxium]] to [[LX]]
09:41:37 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137622&oldid=137620 * Unname4798 * (+6) categories
09:42:01 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137623&oldid=137622 * Unname4798 * (-28)
09:43:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[LX]] to [[Rt]]
09:43:52 <esolangs> [[Rt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137626&oldid=137624 * Unname4798 * (+14) lowercase
09:58:26 <esolangs> [[Rt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137627&oldid=137626 * Ractangle * (+173)
09:58:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Rt]] to [[LX]] over redirect
09:58:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[LX]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Rt]]"
09:59:29 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137630&oldid=137628 * Ractangle * (-35) /* Hello, world! */
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10:29:56 <esolangs> [[LX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137631&oldid=137630 * Ractangle * (+195)
10:54:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137632&oldid=137612 * Ais523 * (+448) /* what was the limitation */ it's hard to explain simply, which is why I made an esolang to demonstrate it
11:22:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137633&oldid=137215 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Esolangs */
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12:43:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137634&oldid=137590 * Tommyaweosme * (+179) /* I might ! need an English page for . */
12:44:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137635&oldid=137548 * Tommyaweosme * (+178)
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13:05:21 <esolangs> [[/English version]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137636 * None1 * (+3029) Translate as the author requested
13:06:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137637&oldid=137634 * None1 * (+50) /* I might ! need an English page for . */
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15:03:14 <b_jonas> do chemists use methanol for household cleaning, like cleaning the outsides of their mobile phones and rubik's cubes, or do they use it only for cleaning in their laboratory?
15:05:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OllyBritton * New user account
15:07:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137640&oldid=137339 * OllyBritton * (+216)
15:25:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137641&oldid=137531 * Tommyaweosme * (+258)
15:25:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137642&oldid=137641 * Tommyaweosme * (-5498) Replaced content with "hello this is a wip archives at [[/Archives|here]]"
15:26:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137643&oldid=137642 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
15:26:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives/july 31 to september 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137644 * Tommyaweosme * (+5550) Created page with "{{User:Tommyaweosme/tabs}} You can see block details at [https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist&action=raw User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist]. meow if youve got any questions, ask em here.
15:26:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137645&oldid=134352 * Tommyaweosme * (-161)
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15:41:31 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137652&oldid=137615 * Yayimhere * (+240)
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15:46:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137657&oldid=137654 * Tommyaweosme * (+190)
15:48:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137658 * Unname4798 * (+62) Created page with "* {background-color:pink !important; color:purple !important;}"
15:48:59 <wWwwW> what do you think of this esolang? and also. what could the possible computational class be?:
15:49:00 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/0x80070050
15:49:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137659&oldid=137658 * Unname4798 * (+0) Unname4798 changed the content model of the page [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] from "wikitext" to "CSS"
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15:51:27 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137664&oldid=137585 * Ractangle * (+214)
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15:52:21 <ais523> wWwwW: it's TC, it can implement Thue almost directly (the evaluation order is a little different but that doesn't matter); you just need to design the strings so that the replacements can never match in reverse
15:54:25 <ais523> also it isn't IO-complete because it can't output anything that's smaller than the entire internal state, but IO isn't needed for TCness
15:54:59 <wWwwW> since it has no in
15:55:13 <ais523> ah right, isn't output-complete then
15:55:39 <wWwwW> what do you think of the esolang?
15:55:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137666&oldid=137375 * Unname4798 * (+55)
15:57:27 <ais523> it's basically a string-rewriting esolang with awkward syntax – I generally prefer less awkward syntax, but there are merits to doing it both ways round
15:57:49 <ais523> I have been thinking more about the esolang I created yesterday, and realised that it has both an easy-to-write syntax and a very minimal, tarpitty syntax
15:57:53 <ais523> and I think I might just make a page for both of htem
15:58:41 <ais523> no, it's an arithmetic-based esolang
15:58:53 <ais523> based on Blindfolded Arithmetic but I changed one of the rules and it makes TCness much harder to prove
15:58:58 <ais523> I haven't written the page for it yet
15:59:39 <ais523> I think many people think the wiki defines esolangs, but it actually mostly just documents them – esolangs can have an existence outside the wiki, and, e.g., there are plenty of golfing and puzzle languages that aren't written up there yet
16:00:02 <ais523> occasionally I write someone else's language up to get a more comprehensive coverage of esolangs in the wiki, but not very often, and there are plenty of esolangs I don't know about
16:00:24 <wWwwW> most of my esolangs only exists
16:00:31 <wWwwW> cuz the website it does
16:00:37 <ais523> I think I'll write an article now, though
16:03:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Yayimhere * uploaded "[[File:Logo of sorry this file exists.jpg]]"
16:04:07 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137668&oldid=137652 * Yayimhere * (+68)
16:05:36 <wWwwW> without the redifintion rule of sorry this file exists would it be tc?
16:05:50 <wWwwW> cuz idk if i like it lol:)
16:07:50 <ais523> oh wow, that's tricky (assuming you mean that ⟪x∧y⟫ is only legal once per program) – my guess is no but I'm not sure
16:08:16 <wWwwW> i mean that ⟪x∧y⟫ is legal multiple times
16:08:29 <wWwwW> rules are always updated with a and b
16:08:41 <wWwwW> but idk which one i should choose
16:09:14 <wWwwW> i think ill choose your idea tho
16:09:32 <ais523> it's only a small idea, you can credit me if you want to but don't have to
16:09:47 <wWwwW> i like to give credit tho
16:09:52 <ais523> you sort-of created it yourself by mistake, by saying something I interpreted as that
16:10:19 <wWwwW> i wonder if any esolangs has happend kinda like that?
16:10:50 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137669&oldid=137668 * Yayimhere * (-126)
16:11:01 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137670&oldid=137669 * Yayimhere * (+1)
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16:11:50 <wWwwW> no prob with leave
16:15:15 <esolangs> [[Sorry this file exists]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137671 * Yayimhere * (+24) Redirected page to [[0x80070050]]
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16:22:28 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137672&oldid=136083 * Yayimhere * (+46) /* 0815 */
16:26:48 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137673 * Ais523 * (+4428) new language!
16:27:16 <ais523> wWwwW: ^ there's my new language
16:27:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137674&oldid=137594 * Ais523 * (+18) /* I */ + [[Imprecision]]
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16:28:13 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137675&oldid=135719 * Ais523 * (+17) + [[Imprecision]]
16:28:43 <b_jonas> “I think many people think the wiki defines esolangs, but it actually mostly just documents them” => true, I most often document esolangs that already exist on the wiki
16:30:00 <b_jonas> wWwwW: depending on what you mean, maybe: I created https://esolangs.org/wiki/Amycus by mistake
16:30:42 <wWwwW> that was pre''y much what i meant
16:30:59 <b_jonas> in that case I got a more esoteric and less useful language
16:31:23 <b_jonas> but it's still interesting enough that I kept it
16:35:04 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Imprecision#Computational_class => hmm, that's an interesting argument, I'll have to think of whether that actually works with just the operations that you have
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16:40:55 <ais523> my current tentative plan is "implement a 2-counter Minsky machine that only simulates multiplications and divisions by 2 and 3 (to get predictable behaviour of the counters), quantize the state variables sharply enough that the error term drops rapidly enough to converge if they aren't being perturbed much by reading the counters, ensure error from the counters themselves is no greater than 1 over the square of their value so that converge stoo"
16:41:05 <ais523> but I don't know whether or not that actually works
16:41:35 <wWwwW> that was very confusing. maybe im read to fast
16:41:36 <ais523> and you would need to "reset" the error in the counters as they got near 0, but it's possible to create a quantizer that only works near 0 but doesn't disturb the value of large values very much
16:42:09 <wWwwW> also where does the name come from?
16:42:15 <b_jonas> ais523: so you'd store information like your state and stack as integers, kept in the round to nearest integers parts of your variables. then in each round, you'd compute a number C that is easily an upper bound on the magnitudes of all numbers involved. then you'd write something like y = 1/(x*x*C+1), and now if x is zero then y=1, but if x is nonzero then y is close enough to zero that you can use it
16:42:21 <b_jonas> in control flow by multiplying y with some almost integer and adding it to another almost integer. and you make sure that C is so large that even if you do such conditionals a few times per round (you know how long your program is) the round to nearest values are always the correct exact values that you want to simulate.
16:43:06 <ais523> wWwwW: frrom my thoughts about computational class – it's very unusual to have a language that looks inherently capable of storing exact numbers, but chooses to use approximations instead
16:43:10 <b_jonas> and this could simulate a computation on integers that is similar to something you do in Blindfolded arithmetic
16:43:43 <ais523> b_jonas: right, that's the general principle
16:44:15 <b_jonas> there's the slight problem that this only lets you equal-compare integers, not less-than compare them, but fortunately our constructions to compile to blindfolded arithmetic are such that we can get away with just equal comparisons
16:44:37 <ais523> Minsky machines only use equal-compares anyway
16:44:38 <b_jonas> oh, we will also have to be able to compute integer remainders for the blindfolded arithmetic thing
16:44:51 <b_jonas> integer reminders with some fixed divisors at least
16:45:04 <b_jonas> but I think you can avoid that if you do a somewhat more complicated construction
16:45:12 <ais523> I wasn't going to go via BA, just implement Minsky machines directly
16:45:16 <b_jonas> one that reads the top digit instead of the bottom digit
16:45:23 <wWwwW> that jumps when the register is NON zero
16:45:30 <wWwwW> be turing complete
16:45:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, that would be enough for TC but I don't like it if we can avoid it
16:45:42 <wWwwW> still decrementing
16:45:51 <ais523> wWwwW: it's still Turing-complete, you just have to reorganise the program
16:46:06 <ais523> the original version of Minsky machines was "jumps somewhere if zero, jumps somewhere else if nonzero"
16:46:22 <wWwwW> i didnt know that!
16:46:39 <ais523> and if only one of the cases jumps, you can make yourself an unconditional jump afterwards (either using an unconditional jump instruction, or a conditional jump where you already know the input) in order to make the other case jump too
16:46:55 <b_jonas> ok, this needs more taught. Imprecision turned out to be a more interesting language than I assumed yesterday when you mentioned it
16:47:03 <wWwwW> also isnt this program:
16:47:34 <ais523> sort of – it gets complicated when you have multiple gotos or comefroms aiming at the same line
16:47:51 <ais523> or if the argument to goto/comefrom is a variable or expression rather than a constant
16:47:58 <ais523> but in the simple case it's equivalent
16:48:15 <wWwwW> then why is comefrom worse than goto????
16:48:48 <ais523> because to most programmers, not knowing where the code could be jumped to is less confusing than not knowing where the code could be jumped from
16:48:55 <int-e> because it goes against the flow of the program which we usually follow when reading code
16:49:15 <ais523> goto is also confusing if the goto destinations aren't labelled (e.g. if every line is numbered, like in BASIC)
16:49:33 <ais523> although, in practice, most programmers tend to label both ends of the jump and so it doesn't matter
16:49:35 <int-e> backwards sentence a writing like is it
16:49:44 <wWwwW> wouldnt it be funny if j in malbogle was a comefrom
16:50:09 <ais523> so malbolge uses computed jumps, and the program memory is mixed in with the data memory
16:50:44 <ais523> meaning that if the data you were storing randomly happened to be a comefrom instruction you would end up having to comefrom multiple places as soon as the computation produced the correct value
16:50:59 <ais523> *comefrom the current location to multiple places
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16:51:07 <wWwwW> that would be very annoying
16:51:23 <wWwwW> i will add that to my malbolge derevative
16:51:30 <ais523> the sad thing is that I'm not even sure that this isn't TC (if you use one of the Malbolge generalisations to infinite memory)
16:52:19 <b_jonas> afaiu in some APL-likes, including very early versions of J, the main control flow mechanism to jump between entire statements was a goto (represented by a right arrow) that takes a line number, and jumps there if it's a line number or continues to the next line if it's... an empty array? or zero? there were no structured if/while statements yet. so now I'm imagining the same but with computed come
16:52:25 <b_jonas> froms that are conditional in the same way, they don't come from anywhere if the label is empty or invalid or zero
16:52:41 <ais523> b_jonas: doesn't INTERCAL work like that?
16:52:44 <b_jonas> note that in APL this used actual line counts, not labels, so you'd have to edit the numbers if you renumbered lines
16:52:54 <ais523> 0 isn't a valid line number there, and making COME FROM expressions evaluate to 0 when you don't want to jump is convenient
16:53:25 <ais523> also I thought that "actual line count" was an esolang invention the first time I saw it, and was very impressed at the idea (I have subsequently discovered that I was wrong in ths)
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16:53:42 <ais523> this may be a side effect of BASIC being my first programming language – I think I was about 6 at the time
16:53:56 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, INTERCAL works like that, but wWwwW just reminded me that other languages can have come from as well. which I had considered earlier for languages like C, python, ruby (only non-computed in C) but not yet for APL
16:54:02 <ais523> so I assumed that written line numbers and RENUMBER were just normal in languages that used line numbers
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16:54:24 <ais523> b_jonas: your Python control flow nonsense reminds me of C setjmp, it's pretty similar
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16:54:44 <int-e> hmm what happened to aspect-oriented programming :)
16:54:57 <int-e> (that has some "come from" flavor to it)
16:55:21 <b_jonas> ais523: I think they were normal in APL too, but the line numbers were used in the *editor* that you can use on a printer tty without a CRT, so the line number of a line are stable even if you insert or delete lines until you renumber by saving then reloading the currently edited list of lines
16:55:21 <esolangs> [[Huit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137676&oldid=136641 * TheCanon2 * (+105)
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16:56:29 <int-e> I swear I said that before reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect-oriented_programming#Criticism
16:56:41 <b_jonas> ais523: setjmp differs in that you have to actually run a statement to get a label value there, you can't jump to somewhere that the control flow hasn't visited yet. you can get around this by writing your function as a big switch statement using a state variable, but that's annoying. here I can just put labels anywhere and you can jump to them as soon as you have the stack frame.
16:56:50 <ais523> int-e: I was just about to link you to that
16:57:11 <ais523> b_jonas: C-INTERCAL uses the "big switch" approach to compile COME FROM
16:57:30 <ais523> at least in some of the complex cases; I can't remember whether it optimizes the simple case into a goto
16:57:45 <b_jonas> ais523: note that https://esolangs.org/wiki/W_(Viktor_T._Toth) combines these: it uses the setjmp-like thing where you save the instruction pointer at runtime for backwards jumps, and structured if statements for forwards jumps. (except it also has function calls and even computed function calls)
16:57:53 <ais523> I guess I see "entering a scope" as comparable to "running a command"
16:57:58 <b_jonas> and W does allow you to goto a computed value
16:58:00 <esolangs> [[Huit interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137677 * TheCanon2 * (+2978) Created the article
16:58:55 <int-e> I did like the Threaded INTERCAL take on coming from the same location multiple times.
16:59:08 <ais523> it is the obvious solution, I think
16:59:20 <ais523> (I didn't invent Threaded INTERCAL, but was the second person to write an interpreter for it)
16:59:26 <ais523> err, compiler, not interpreter
16:59:31 <int-e> Well, yes, but sometimes the obvious thing is also nice. :)
16:59:36 <ais523> although the compilation is somewhat close to the "bundle an interpreter" method of compiling
17:00:50 <int-e> Plus there's the fact that INTERCAL is one of the earliest esolangs. So even obvious things had a good chance of being novel.
17:01:24 <wWwwW> isnt it THE first one?
17:01:25 <ais523> I can't remember when COME FROM was added to INTERCAL
17:01:38 <ais523> both INTERCAL and COME FROM are old, but the idea of combining them is more recent
17:01:44 <wWwwW> it was in the C dialect
17:01:57 <ais523> wWwwW: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages
17:02:26 <ais523> it was C-INTERCAL I think, but not sure what date
17:02:37 <wWwwW> ais523 they werent made to be esolangs
17:02:59 <ais523> the article I linked mentions that it's hard to define whether a language is an esolang, if it was invented before there was a concept of what a normal programming language looks like
17:03:37 <ais523> BF was almost invented in 1964, though (P′′ is a slightly minimized version of it)
17:03:41 <int-e> Game of Life is a proper esolang.
17:04:34 <int-e> Huh I didn't realize how close the inceptions of GoL and INTERCAL are. But GoL wins.
17:05:20 <int-e> I'm not sure when they proved it TC though?
17:05:39 <ais523> int-e: it took a while I think
17:05:59 <ais523> yes, INTERCAL is obviously TC to someone who understands the subject, and IIRC one of the authors said as much
17:06:02 <wWwwW> and i cant find it online
17:06:05 <int-e> Conway's Game of Life
17:06:13 <ais523> that it naturally ended up TC and they didn't need to do anything to make it TC
17:06:55 <ais523> I have put some thought into game-of-life golf – finding a set of primitives that let you write powerful programs in relatively small area
17:07:20 <int-e> INTERCAL TC... oh right it has stacks.
17:07:27 <ais523> I had an idea of using beams of spaceships and gliders that made gaps in each other, that can be quite compact and might be workable into something TC
17:07:28 <int-e> (The arrays only provide finite memory)
17:07:40 <ais523> int-e: it's actually TC even without variables at all, but I did that one intentionally
17:07:49 <wWwwW> GoL assembly lang??? perhaps?????
17:07:56 <ais523> that was the first time I almost discovered The Waterfall Model, oddly enough
17:08:32 <ais523> some of the best esolang ideas come up time and time again in lots of different contexts, but if you've never seen the pattern before it can be hard to notice
17:09:25 <wWwwW> does the exist any computational models, that are well...
17:10:25 <ais523> computational models are useful if you're studying computation
17:10:42 <wWwwW> to create programs
17:10:59 <ais523> and any nontrivial/optimising compiler will need some computational model for representing the programs it's compiling
17:11:07 <ais523> although normally it's more complicated than the ones you'll find on the wiki
17:11:29 <ais523> most of them aren't intended for writing in directly, but rather for compiling into
17:11:31 <int-e> wWwwW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random-access_machine is probably more boring than you want
17:11:48 <ais523> I agree that it's both useful and boring
17:13:10 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137678&oldid=137670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:13:12 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unimplemented]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137679&oldid=34020 * Yayimhere * (+36)
17:13:22 <int-e> (it turns out that people don't enjoy implementing random access memory on Turing machines)
17:14:32 <ais523> hmm, should I tell PSDW to stop adding "Category:Languages" without adding the other categories at the same time?
17:14:51 <ais523> it just makes it harder to find uncategorized pages because they don't show up on the list of uncategorized pages any more
17:15:21 <wWwwW> maybe uncategorized could include ones with only lang?
17:15:49 <ais523> that would be a good idea, but unfortunately the definition of "uncategorized" isn't very easy to change
17:16:40 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137680&oldid=137604 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Lowercase, categories
17:17:11 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137681&oldid=137678 * Yayimhere * (+155)
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17:19:30 <b_jonas> I was watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSxW2jHS87g recently, in which Marc tells how the US helped the rocket engineer Von Braun move to the US around 1945, but the President didn't trust him for a while, so he wasn't allowed to participate in actual spaceflight research until the 1960s. So that and Böhm's prediscovery of brainfuck reminded me of a joke that I read somewhere and I'll retell in
17:19:40 <esolangs> [[LX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137682&oldid=137631 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) Categories
17:22:17 <b_jonas> The joke plays in the 1950s, when the US tries to make rockets for spaceflight, but the rockets keep failing and the whole things costs a lot of money. The scientists recommend hiring Von Braun, but the President does not approve that. So instead they hire a spirit medium to summon the spirit of Ciolkovski. Ciolkovski takes one look at the rocket designs presented to him, then says "why do you need a
17:22:24 <b_jonas> hundred scientists working on this, when I have already published a good design for the entire space rocket in my 1929 article?" A few years later, they summon the spiriti of Ciolkovski again. "Professor Ciolkovski, we built the rocket following your instructions in the 1929 article, but it exploded at launch." "Ah yes, that is the explosion problem that I solve in my 1931 article."
17:22:51 <b_jonas> I usually think of Gauss like this but for mathematics problems.
17:23:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137683&oldid=137666 * Tommyaweosme * (+159)
17:23:19 <esolangs> [[Undelta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137684&oldid=137664 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) Categories
17:25:20 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137685&oldid=137681 * Yayimhere * (-19)
17:25:21 <esolangs> [[Wow owo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137686&oldid=137573 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Categories
17:26:20 <b_jonas> Marc explains in the video that the rocket exploded because of a short between two diodes, since back then they didn't have the material technology for all the cheap plastic insulators that we use today. So after that, everything that the NASA built that went into the rocket was either properly capped with an insulator, or the whole circuit board and components on it were embedded in epoxy so that
17:26:26 <b_jonas> components can't move. I don't know if that's the same explosion problem that Ciolkovski had solved in the joke though.
17:26:56 <esolangs> [[Wow owo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137687&oldid=137686 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* examples */
17:27:21 <b_jonas> don't take "epoxy" in the strict sense above, I don't know what insulating filler material they used\
17:29:54 <esolangs> [[Kcidea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137688&oldid=137535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Stub, categories
17:30:43 <wWwwW> PDW is rlly active rn
17:32:09 <b_jonas> only Ciolkovski is better because he actually wrote the articles, while Gauss just solved the problems and wrote down very little
17:32:40 <ais523> I discovered recently that Gauss invented the Fast Fourier Transform algorithm, but nobody noticed until after it had already been rediscovered by modern mathematicians
17:33:05 <wWwwW> i cant get dis stupid idea of my head
17:33:39 <wWwwW> a consistency checking esolang
17:34:09 <esolangs> [[Blast protection]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137689&oldid=136978 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Categories
17:34:21 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137690&oldid=137673 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Specification */ move a sentence to a more sensible place
17:35:37 <esolangs> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137691&oldid=137440 * Ais523 * (+35) see also
17:35:57 <esolangs> [[NOP (esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137692&oldid=115850 * Ractangle * (+62) /* More elaborate Python interpreter, but unfortunately it is incompatible with other languages */
17:36:01 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137693&oldid=134825 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ +[[Imprecision]]
17:37:59 <wWwwW> everbody gettin active
17:38:10 <wWwwW> but is my esolang idea a good one
17:38:23 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what you mean by consistency checking
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17:38:52 <wWwwW> like you know how some systems are inconsistent?
17:39:06 <wWwwW> could you makea. esolang with some operations and data types n' stuff
17:39:14 <wWwwW> to make it easy to check?
17:39:36 <ais523> it will depend on the exact meaning of "inconsistent" that you're using
17:39:41 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137694&oldid=137685 * Yayimhere * (+55)
17:39:43 <ais523> it is hard to objectively define
17:40:01 <wWwwW> like. isnt it without paradoxes?
17:40:46 <wWwwW> just the way in dis yt vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeQX2HjkcNo
17:40:52 <int-e> sure you can take the concept from formal logic
17:41:06 <int-e> but how do you make a language around this that is interesting?
17:41:32 <ais523> so the problem here is that for a language X to be able to prove a language Y consistent, X must be *more* powerful than Y, not just equally powerful
17:41:36 <wWwwW> i want something where you apply operqators to a language(idk how you would store that)
17:41:48 <ais523> unless X is inconsistent, in which case it can typically prove a lot of false statements so the proofs aren't interesting
17:41:53 <int-e> the "fundamental flaw" framing still upsets me beyond reason
17:42:11 <int-e> And I've never watched the video because of that.
17:42:11 <wWwwW> ais523 ik. thats why maybe it would only be for FSA's
17:42:20 <ais523> so your esolang will need to be more powerful than the languages it's operating on, and it's hard to do that while remaining computable (but this isn't really interesting if the language can't be implemented)
17:42:49 <int-e> (Plus being well too familiar with Gödel's theorems and related ones by Rosser and Tarski and Kleene and I forgot who else already)
17:42:52 <wWwwW> like all turing complete esolangs cant be implemented(but still yea)
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17:43:52 <wWwwW> like not constructing theorems as a esolang
17:43:59 <wWwwW> but like apply dis and dis operaotr
17:44:03 <wWwwW> until you get a bool
17:44:42 <int-e> if you simpify too much you probably end up in the vicinity of SAT and SMT solvers.
17:45:05 <ais523> an esoteric SAT solver would be fun, although arguably the existing SAT solvers are esoteric already
17:45:10 <wWwwW> what is a SAT and SMT solver??????
17:45:22 <ais523> actually, violin already exists, sort of
17:45:37 <int-e> SAT is "(boolean) satisfiability"
17:45:46 <ais523> it's in a repository and might even build if you somehow manage to figure out the right sequence of commands
17:45:50 <wWwwW> how would you do that
17:45:54 <wWwwW> convert a lang to a bool
17:45:57 <wWwwW> and do it correctly
17:46:14 <int-e> SMT is "satisfiability modulo theories"; I /could/ explain more I suppose but Wikipedia probably does a better job without any effort on my part :P
17:46:34 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137695 * Ractangle * (+316) Created page with "'''Nope. with no quine''' is an esolang created by [[User:Ractangle]] based on those "None. without a quine" esolangs. it's basicly [[Nope.]] with no quine. So that basicly means: if you put "None." to the input. The interpriter will print: and if you pu
17:46:36 <wWwwW> also all inconstent things are not TC right?
17:46:50 <ais523> (violin is specialised for INTERCAL reverse assignments, like .1 $ .2 <- #12345, and works out what values to assign to the variables to make them work even if the same variable is used twice)
17:47:04 <int-e> inconsistent theories have no models, so are they "things" at all :P
17:47:17 <wWwwW> does what im saying even make sense?
17:47:34 <ais523> well, arguably an inconsistent theory resolves everything that's implied by a contradiction to bottom, so it's the equivalent of a language where none of those programs halt
17:47:45 <int-e> wWwwW: I think it's an "idea" but it's pretty vague.
17:47:53 <ais523> I am not sure if it's possible to still be TC despite that, if it doesn't have the law of excluded middle or the like
17:48:07 <ais523> so that some things can be meaningfully true or false despite the inconsistency
17:48:45 <ais523> right, but you can define a way to observe the equivalent of a halt
17:48:55 <ais523> e.g. in a CA you can define a halt as being an exact repeat of a previous state
17:49:01 <wWwwW> but cant you do that for something that doesnt halt?????
17:49:03 <int-e> I've never made an esolang because fleshing out ideas is hard. It's easier *within* a framework so I've analyzed a few of the existing ones.
17:49:27 <wWwwW> i will start working on dis
17:49:37 <ais523> wWwwW: yes – the exact definition of halting becomes somewhat subjective when dealing with weak versions of Turing-completeness in which you're allowed to change the halt condition
17:50:14 <wWwwW> either some inconsitent systems are TC or GoL is not TC ig????
17:50:38 <ais523> weak Turing-completeness isn't very easy to define precisely and the definition is still debated
17:50:49 <int-e> GoL is TC but in what sense would it be consistent or inconsistent?
17:50:51 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137696&oldid=137695 * Ractangle * (+133)
17:51:03 <int-e> It's not a logical system in any obvious way.
17:51:17 <wWwwW> wow this went of the rails o_o
17:51:28 <ais523> int-e: conceptually, isn't that because it's untyped?
17:51:39 <ais523> you can send a spaceship at an interface that's expecting a glider and *something* happens
17:51:45 <ais523> just not necessarily what you intended
17:51:57 <wWwwW> wow dis is confusing
17:52:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137697&oldid=137633 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Esolangs */
17:52:04 <wWwwW> wtf even does logic MEAN??????
17:52:08 <ais523> meanwhile, untyped lambda calculus is TC, but is inconsistent if you try to interpret it as a proof system
17:52:24 <wWwwW> It doesnt mean algebra since how tf is GoL algebra????
17:52:24 <int-e> ais523: sure there's an emergent level of abstraction where you have a type system of sorts
17:52:29 <int-e> I'd call it non-obvious
17:53:18 <ais523> oh wow, I just realised something that might be completely wrong, or even meaningless – but in the Curry-Howard correspondence, aren't consistent systems necessarily total, and the ones that can write infinite loops the ones that can prove false?
17:53:31 <wWwwW> i just found out somethin(i think)
17:53:42 <ais523> so in a sense, it's *only* the inconsistent systems that are TC, none of the consistent ones
17:53:44 <wWwwW> i made dis stubid esolang : https://esolangs.org/wiki/Not
17:53:53 <wWwwW> heres the thing i found out:
17:54:09 <wWwwW> either not is more powerfull than a PDA
17:54:20 <wWwwW> or a PDA can make the program on the black page
17:54:22 <int-e> ais523: Sounds mostly correct to me. There's the codata trick though.
17:54:41 <ais523> wWwwW: not is indeed more powerful than a PDA in some respects, but less powerful in other respects
17:54:56 <int-e> codata Result a = Result a | Step (Result a)
17:55:02 <wWwwW> in a *full respect*
17:55:03 <ais523> imagine what happens to the stack after you do 1#1[1+==#N] (this is your example program with an extra =)
17:55:17 <ais523> the resulting state of the stack is something that a PDA can't even express, it is two-dimensional
17:55:36 <int-e> with a type like that you can split your computation into a sequence of steps that each terminate
17:55:39 <ais523> but, the language can't do some things that PDAs can do easily, like read memory in a way that affects control flow
17:56:09 <ais523> int-e: one of my first esolangs was like that, [[e:Wiki Cyclic Tag]]
17:56:17 <ais523> err, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
17:56:27 <int-e> I guess this corresponds to Kleene's normal form (one outer fixed point/minimization/while loop)
17:56:42 <ais523> MediaWIki doesn't support infinite loops, so you have to manually rerun the next loop of the program
17:57:10 <wWwwW> people consider html and css TC
17:57:15 <wWwwW> but it need user input forever
17:57:19 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137698&oldid=137696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Categories
17:57:23 <ais523> wWwwW: languages don't have to be in the main computational classes – it's normally very simple languages that aren't, because they don't have enough power for their operations to substitute for each other, so adding new operations gives new powers
17:58:07 <wWwwW> i wonder what a not comp calss would look like lol :]
17:58:13 <ais523> think about HQ9+, it has effectively no computational power at all – but if it did, then the HQ9+ commands would be redundant
17:58:25 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137699&oldid=136324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) Distinguish confusion
17:58:33 <ais523> but because it isn't, each command is contributing to the language in it s own very limited way, so it is in a computational class of HQ9+-alikes
17:58:38 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137700&oldid=137698 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Distinguish confusion
17:58:56 <ais523> and it is hard to create another language in this class without creating essentially the same language but with different syntax
17:59:08 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137701&oldid=135881 * Yayimhere * (+20)
18:00:13 <wWwwW> aaaaa my brain is breakin
18:00:29 <wWwwW> also i wonder if Not has any paradoxe:)
18:00:58 <esolangs> [[Template:S]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137702 * Ractangle * (+17) Created page with "<del>{{{1}}}<del>"
18:01:45 <esolangs> [[Template:S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137703&oldid=137702 * Ractangle * (+1)
18:02:12 <wWwwW> but its for sure in a *full* perspective not is less powerfull than a PDA
18:02:41 <ais523> computational power isn't a straight line
18:02:52 <ais523> we say language X is more powerful than language Y if X can do everything Y can do, and more
18:03:04 <ais523> but sometimes, there are two languages, and each can do things that the other can't
18:03:21 <wWwwW> what if the only thing x can do thaty y cant is a no-op
18:03:27 <wWwwW> something non important
18:03:32 <wWwwW> also ive found a way to cheat
18:03:36 <ais523> that's still a power difference, and possibly an interesting one
18:03:54 <wWwwW> you can just count the number of 1's in a not string as a symbol in a PDA
18:03:54 <ais523> writing a language that can't do a nop is hard unless you're doing something like enforcing output
18:04:08 <ais523> yes, except a PDA can't have infinitely many symbols
18:04:20 <ais523> that specifically is the thing that gives Not the extra power
18:04:58 <ais523> because PDAs are normally defined in terms of a lookup table: "when there's an X on top of the stack, and a Y on the input, and you're in state Z, do «thing»"
18:05:11 <ais523> but if you had infinitely many symbols you'd need an infinitely big program
18:05:28 <wWwwW> aaaa dis is kinda hard
18:05:32 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137704&oldid=135725 * Ractangle * (+244)
18:05:42 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137705&oldid=137704 * Ractangle * (-8)
18:06:04 <wWwwW> aaaaaa im annoying myself
18:06:15 <wWwwW> i didnt know not could confuse me so much'
18:06:15 <ais523> or, well, here's an example: if Not had input, you could write a program that input a string, then printed it twice
18:06:16 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137706&oldid=137217 * Ractangle * (+28) /* See also */
18:06:18 <ais523> you can't do that with a PDA
18:06:21 <int-e> wWwwW: take a break. get some fresh air. :)
18:06:55 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137707&oldid=137705 * Ractangle * (+30)
18:07:09 <wWwwW> is dis allowed in a pda?:
18:07:09 <wWwwW> for all symbol and state Y do «thing»
18:07:21 <wWwwW> since Not has no conditional
18:07:51 <ais523> it's sort-of allowed, but the «thing» wouldn't be able to follow an infinite pattern
18:07:58 <ais523> otherwise you get more power than a PDA is normally allowed to have
18:08:01 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137708&oldid=137697 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Esolangs */
18:08:15 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137709&oldid=137708 * Ractangle * (+13) /* Esolangs */
18:08:31 <wWwwW> so no infinite loops???
18:08:44 <ais523> you can have an infinite loop, you just need to stay in a known state
18:09:02 <ais523> "when there's a 1 on top of the stack and you're in state 1, stay in state 1 and leave the 1 on top of the stack", that sort of thing
18:09:03 <wWwwW> then Not is representable in a PDA
18:09:08 <wWwwW> unless im wrong in some way
18:09:13 <ais523> no, a PDA cannot do the concatenation
18:09:23 <wWwwW> but if you have infit e symbols
18:09:28 <wWwwW> to represnt the ones
18:09:33 <ais523> then the concatenation would be an infinite pattern
18:10:07 <ais523> computational classes are defined more by what they can't do, than by what they can
18:10:27 <wWwwW> lol i think i find this to funny
18:10:38 <ais523> this is why the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Looping_counter test is useful, if a language can do that it proves that it isn't just a PDA or LBA
18:11:12 <ais523> it might have a unique or unusual computational class, especially if it's simple or defined based on a list of examples, but if that seems unlikely it raises the chance it's TC
18:11:17 <ais523> LBA = "linear-bounded automaton"
18:11:22 <int-e> Little Big Adventure, scnr
18:11:31 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Linear_bounded_automaton
18:11:43 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137710&oldid=137707 * Ractangle * (+98)
18:11:44 <int-e> What else... Linear Block Adressing
18:11:51 <ais523> my favourite example is https://esolangs.org/wiki/BuzzFizz which was intentionally designed as one
18:12:00 <wWwwW> so its somewhere between a LBA and a TM
18:12:08 <wWwwW> ais523 i like the name
18:12:14 <ais523> and it can do most of the popular problems, but not looping counters because an LBA can't do that one
18:12:33 <wWwwW> how much the esolang comunity has proove
18:12:46 <wWwwW> like if you want to choose something just get some esolang guys interested in it
18:13:03 <wWwwW> *proove or disproove something
18:13:10 <ais523> it's been a lot of people over a lot of years, and some of us have a lot of practice
18:13:16 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137711&oldid=137690 * Hakerh400 * (+168) Add interpreter
18:13:22 <ais523> int-e: fungot isn't here
18:13:56 <wWwwW> wait wtf û looks like a pencil
18:14:25 <wWwwW> the name is like a metaphor
18:14:29 <ais523> oh good, I was procrastinating on writing an Imprecision interpreter and someone wrote one already
18:14:41 <wWwwW> or however you speel it
18:15:01 <wWwwW> "im *not* going to be normal" or something like dat
18:16:40 <wWwwW> how the hell is not destroying me
18:18:00 <wWwwW> im just going to keep on going
18:18:45 <ais523> bbchallenge has spent a while trying to do something that has been proven impossible to continue indefinitely, to see how far they get
18:19:24 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137712&oldid=136507 * Int-e * (+74) add Unlambda
18:19:51 <ais523> wWwwW: they are working through all Turing machines in the order of simplest to most complicated, trying to work out which ones halt and which ones don't
18:19:51 <int-e> busy beaver challenge I suppose
18:20:19 <ais523> it is known that at some point, we will reach a Turing machine that doesn't halt, but this is impossible to prove
18:20:50 <ais523> (it is also possible that we will reach a Turing machine that does halt, but we can't prove it and can't simulate it for long enough to observe it halting)
18:21:00 <int-e> can we blame this on Chaitin ;-)
18:21:17 <ais523> "we" here is general, I hardly did anything
18:21:27 <int-e> it's a facet of the halting problem being undecidable
18:21:40 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137713&oldid=137712 * Yayimhere * (+26) added not cuz its possible
18:22:12 <int-e> If you could, for each Turing machine, whether it halts or not, then you could decide the halting problem simply by enumerating all possible proofs until one of them does the trick for the TM in question.
18:22:13 <ais523> int-e: oh wow, looping counter without s or k
18:22:31 <int-e> ais523: the ``ci`ci infinite loop is weird
18:22:44 <int-e> it's basically that with output
18:23:05 <ais523> now I am tempted to make a generalization of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtle_cough by adding the identity function to it
18:23:37 <int-e> (it's not original code... some example like this was in Madoore's original distribution)
18:23:44 <ais523> my current guess is "still sub-TC" but it's hard to tell
18:24:11 <int-e> (but it should be too simple for copyright issues, plus I reconstructed it on the spot :P)
18:24:15 <wWwwW> if you do that ais523 then plz name it general cough plz
18:24:36 <ais523> I guess the hard-mode version would be c+d+i
18:25:08 <ais523> d is sort-of like an identity function
18:25:14 <wWwwW> you said it took years for you to make eoslangs
18:25:25 <wWwwW> (not to say you lie or anythin')
18:25:33 <wWwwW> (and not to annoy you)
18:28:01 <wWwwW> you made on yester day
18:28:06 <wWwwW> and now your making another
18:28:12 <wWwwW> im confused i tihnk
18:28:17 <ais523> I don't really count that as making an esolang
18:28:21 <ais523> I guess I did, in a way
18:28:21 <int-e> wWwwW: nobody said that *all* languages take that long to make
18:28:29 <int-e> also this one is a variation on an existing one
18:28:43 <ais523> right, removing commands from an esolang is easy, it's probably even easier than adding them
18:29:00 <ais523> having some reason to think that removing commands from an esolang might be *interesting* takes insight, but in this case it wasn't my insight
18:29:21 <int-e> and besides it's not done
18:29:30 <ais523> like, I didn't originally notice that ~ in Underload could be implemented in terms of the other commands, someone else noticed that
18:29:38 <int-e> because I imagine ais523 wouldn't write anything about it unless it's somehow actually interesting
18:29:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137714&oldid=137709 * Ractangle * (+2)
18:29:48 <wWwwW> i have a *controverisal* thing somebody said:
18:29:49 <wWwwW> a good esolang take three things: boredom, ot much freedom, an ADHD
18:29:49 <int-e> and both c and d are... awkward.
18:30:06 <ais523> int-e: right, although I guess not knowing whether it's interesting or not is interesting in its own way?
18:30:21 <ais523> that normally takes a few days of thought to determine that it isn't uninteresting in a non-obvious way, though
18:30:46 <ais523> and oerjan isn't a regular here nowadays – oerjan was good at that sort of thing, probably better than me
18:31:31 <int-e> it is promising in that c and d kind of offset each other; c makes termination harder; d makes termination easier
18:32:01 <b_jonas> %s/Ciolkovski/Ciolkovskij/g
18:32:07 <ais523> fwiw I was considering a call-with-previous-continuation operation in an esolang I was working on recently
18:32:15 <int-e> my brain just wants to shut off though so I won't think about it
18:32:23 <ais523> the difference is that call/cc, if you call the continuation, the argument effectively replaces the entire call/cc call
18:32:56 <ais523> with call/pc, if you call the continuation, it effectively replaces the *argument* to the call/pc call, so it gets given the same continuation again and continues from there
18:33:28 <wWwwW> this day has made me hate not
18:33:30 <ais523> I think this is equivalent in logics that don't have linear-logic-like restrictions on duplicating and discarding values
18:33:38 <wWwwW> i will add that to my user page
18:33:41 <ais523> but it's easier to use for some things
18:34:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137715&oldid=137610 * Yayimhere * (+22)
18:35:55 <int-e> b_jonas: ITYM Циолковский
18:36:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137716&oldid=137345 * Ractangle * (+221) /* test topic */ new section
18:36:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: channel logs webserver seems inaccessible
18:36:37 <int-e> (except for the front page)
18:36:43 <ais523> b_jonas: try an invalid URL, it 404s right away
18:36:57 <ais523> server's accessible but is having trouble serving for some reason
18:37:18 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's the "stalker mode sometimes makes it get stuck" thing, which I hoped would've been fixed when I updated CivetWeb.
18:37:19 <int-e> wWwwW: I've forgotten essentially all the russian I've learned but I can still use the cyrillic script :P
18:37:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137717&oldid=137716 * Ractangle * (+0) /* test topic */
18:37:36 <fizzie> The front page, and 404s, are served by nginx; only the logs are served by the special log-server binary.
18:38:19 <fizzie> Restarted it, and it works again, but will probably break at some point in the future for the same reason.
18:38:33 <fizzie> One of these days I'll debug it. But not today.
18:38:35 <wWwwW> chat must look so confusing
18:38:52 <int-e> fizzie: sure, just narrowed it down because /sometimes/ something usually stable like DNS breaks
18:40:55 <b_jonas> wWwwW: to be clear, COME FROM was originally proposed as a joke replacement instead of GO TO, so it is by design that that they are equivalent. The joke was that there's an influential paper by Dijkstra where he explains why languages like FORTRAN should have a structured IF and WHILE statement, and you should write program using those rather than with conditional GO TO statements. So the COME FROM
18:41:01 <b_jonas> proposal starts from the base idea that GO TO is harmful, but then proposes an even worse solution.
18:43:28 <ais523> b_jonas: they aren't equivalent in interpreted languages, goto is much more efficient to implement
18:43:28 <int-e> wWwwW: IRC can get convoluted. It used to be worse :)
18:44:05 <ais523> e.g. you can't come from in a scripting interpreter that starts executing commands before it's fully parsed the program
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18:47:58 <b_jonas> yeah, Random-access machine is the computational model that is rather similar to the 70s and 80s computers which had a CPU and RAM running on the same clock, with no cache other than sometimes a 1-byte data prefetch, so every RAM access has the same cost. Only the model abstracts away the part that the available RAM and address space is necessarily finite. I think it could have been discovered earlier,
18:48:04 <b_jonas> but back then computers stored data on disks/drums or tape or mercury delay loop rather than core memory or SRAM or DRAM, so the abstraction was deeper, pretending that it always took the same amount of time to access any cell, even though that usually wasn't true for disks.
18:48:27 <zzo38> The variant of call/cc that I had consider is law of excluded middle continuations
18:49:02 <wWwwW> b_jonas: interesting
18:49:26 <b_jonas> Although now that I think of it, https://www.righto.com/2024/08/minuteman-guidance-computer.html describes a computer that stores its work memory on a disk, but its CPU clock cycles are synchronized with the disk's rotation, and it has a separate head for each track, so it does actually access its memory in constant time!
18:50:25 <b_jonas> that's the D-37 family of computers.
18:51:14 <b_jonas> oh hey, the logs web server fixed itself, thank you
18:51:29 <int-e> b_jonas: fizzie poked it
18:52:34 <wWwwW> int-e: i just got reminded of the c'mon do something meme but something happend
18:53:15 <int-e> wWwwW: honestly I'm not sure how many memes there are that both of us know
18:53:28 <int-e> (I'm not sure what you're referring to)
18:54:07 <int-e> links are fine (within reason)
18:54:27 <wWwwW> https://imgflip.com/i/923fer
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18:56:10 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but the library catalogs store russian names in ISO-9 scientific transcription, presumably so that they could type them on a typewriter with fewer type elements, and then this got kept when the catalog got digitized, so if I type Ciolkovskij in the digital catalog https://nektar2.oszk.hu/LVbin/LibriVision/lv_search_form.html then it works (though gives some false positives for other people
18:56:16 <b_jonas> with the same family name), but if I enter Циолковский then it finds nothing
18:56:52 <int-e> b_jonas: that's kind of sad
18:57:03 <b_jonas> I think this is a bug, the library catalog software should be able to find transliterated versions of the name if I type Циолковский, but I have to know the workaround
18:57:56 <wWwwW> ahhh. radioactive theme. make my brain go yes
18:58:06 <b_jonas> and last I was in the building, they still had parts of the catalog not digitized, so I may have to search in the cupboards of catalog slips by the transcribed name sorted in alphabetic order
18:58:54 <b_jonas> I don't know if OSzK and/or Rényi Int kvt still has parts of their catalogs not yet digitized though, maybe they scanned everything by now
18:59:14 <int-e> Using 'j' for 'й' (which in context mostly extends the 'и' vowel) is also a bit weird, but whatever.
18:59:50 <int-e> (it's hard to argue with standards)
19:00:02 <int-e> cf. https://xkcd.com/927/
19:02:08 <wWwwW> sorry for bringing this up again but:
19:02:09 <wWwwW> how the hell is not more powerfull than whats just a TM but with bounded memory
19:03:23 <int-e> you need unbounded memory to keep track of the number of 1s to print between newlines
19:03:27 <b_jonas> int-e: the ISO 9 transcription wants to be a simple reversible transliteration that takes one letter always to one letter, so I think that makes sense. There are other transliterations that don't try to keep that.
19:03:39 <wWwwW> all you need is duplication concatenation and infinite loops
19:03:54 <b_jonas> also ISO 9 tries to transliterate all languages written in cyrillic letters uniformly, but in a way that's optimized for Russian first
19:03:55 <int-e> log(N) -> oo as N -> oo.
19:04:44 <int-e> And since there's no input, an LBA only gets finite memory here.
19:05:21 <wWwwW> even with input it can be a LBA(see buzzfizz)
19:05:33 <int-e> (The memory is bounded by a linear (technically affine to make the zero sized input case work) function in the input size.)
19:05:45 <b_jonas> and I think Serbian second, so that the transliterations for letters usually matches the Gaj serbian transliteration, except for ј where Russian takes precedence, and for the letters where serbian transliterates one cyrillic letter to two latin letters
19:06:02 <ais523> int-e: here, have an infinity symbol: ∞
19:06:22 <int-e> ais523: it looks ugly in my terminal font :P
19:06:31 <zzo38> I did not know about Minuteman computer now I see
19:06:47 <b_jonas> the one digit number for the standard is really cool by the way. do you know any other ISO or ECMA or ANSI etc standards with such a cool name?
19:07:02 <ais523> the book I learned about computer construction from was written a little after magnetic core memory was invented
19:07:18 <ais523> and had sections on both digital and analog computers, although there was more space devoted to digital
19:07:34 <int-e> ais523: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/owo.png
19:07:40 <ais523> b_jonas: aren't Ecma standards normally just two digits long? although they might have reached three digits by now
19:07:58 <b_jonas> ais523: two letters yes, but I don't think I've seen any one-digit one
19:08:05 <ais523> ISO have cool-sounding numbers for some of the standards, like ISO 9000 (the standards themselves are less interesting though)
19:08:12 <b_jonas> and the name with ISO is more impressive with how most ISO standards have longer names
19:09:36 <ais523> this IRC channel tried to set up a standards organisation once, but it didn't get as far as publishing even a single standard
19:09:41 <int-e> wWwwW: BuzzFizz has unbounded counters, so that means unbounded memory.
19:09:42 <ais523> (I think it was planning to do BF first, unsuprisingly)
19:10:10 <wWwwW> then its not a LBA????
19:10:11 <ais523> int-e: but it can be implemented with memory that's bounded linearly by the input
19:10:37 <int-e> okay so it can't do the looping counter
19:10:46 <ais523> wWwwW: the trick is that although the counters can theoretically go arbitrarily high, every very high value is indistinguishable from some lower value, and you can determine that statically
19:10:57 <b_jonas> I admit "typewriters" is too specific a reason, the library catalog even on a digital computer would probably have used a latin transliteration until about 1990 the least
19:11:00 <ais523> so you can "cheat" by storing the higher values as a lower one
19:11:03 <int-e> ais523: right I didn't read that far
19:11:29 <ais523> (well, "statically based on the input" which is how you get the LBA's input-dependence)
19:11:31 <wWwwW> does buzzfizz have strings?
19:11:43 <ais523> except for string literals in the print statements
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19:11:52 <wWwwW> else you could prop implement not
19:12:11 <int-e> it's not an LBA for the purpose of printing stuff
19:12:32 <int-e> you can print a counter
19:12:36 <b_jonas> "this IRC channel tried to set up a standards organisation once" => wait what?
19:12:42 <ais523> int-e: oh, ouch, that is probably a mistake
19:12:56 <ais523> b_jonas: it collapsed into bikeshedding about what typesetting software to use, I think
19:13:09 <ais523> it didn't get as far as considering issues like hosting or getting anyone to pay any attention to it
19:13:20 <int-e> but for properties like halting it's an LBA
19:14:15 <wWwwW> ill have to leave in a bit sorry
19:14:28 <int-e> that said... I still don't think that it can do the loooping counter even if you abuse the ability to print counter values
19:14:48 <b_jonas> typical. hopefully tom7 will improve his BoVeX esoteric typesetting system to a point where we can standardize on that. though we may need to write a texinfo-like template for it that can compile to either HTML or printable PDF.
19:14:52 <int-e> wWwwW: it's fine, people drop off and return all the time
19:15:22 <int-e> sure it may take hours, days, weeks... sometimes more
19:15:25 <ais523> conversations here often move slowly
19:15:31 <ais523> we continue them across hours or days quite often
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19:15:42 <int-e> and there are logs to help...
19:18:00 <esolangs> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137718&oldid=58772 * Int-e * (+96) nitpick
19:18:53 <b_jonas> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09-01.html#l5f APL Del editor, ∇ editor, for log search purposes
19:21:41 <int-e> ais523: ironically that capability to print the counter is quite essential for FizzBuzz
19:21:44 <b_jonas> "sort of – it gets complicated when you have multiple gotos or comefroms aiming at the same line" => that's how Chomsky context-free grammars work if you translate it to a nondeterministic stack automata, but with a very different semantics for multiple COME FROM from the same place as in Intercal
19:21:55 <b_jonas> re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09-01.html#lpf
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19:22:26 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not very different, it's actually pretty similar
19:22:39 <ais523> C-INTERCAL implements backtracking and threading using the same internal primitives
19:24:01 <b_jonas> we should look up the original article proposing come from and link it from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages https://esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL https://esolangs.org/wiki/C-INTERCAL
19:25:19 <esolangs> [[GoL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137719 * B jonas * (+26) Redirected page to [[Game of Life]]
19:26:35 <b_jonas> ok, I admit I haven't really looked at how threaded intercal worked, it didn't seem interesting enough an extension
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19:29:17 <ais523> the way it does inter-thread communication is probably the most interesting part, and ended up being useful for single-threaded programming too
19:34:00 <int-e> I'm trying to recall... was it a one-shot version of REINSTATE?
19:35:00 <b_jonas> "<wWwwW> a consistency checking esolang" => would a modern SAT solver or finite domain logic programming solver count? how about just Prolog?
19:35:05 <int-e> (I'll look it up myself)
19:37:27 <int-e> Ah, statement get an optional ONCE/AGAIN flag and 'ONCE' can toggle the NOT flag. Yeah, I think my memory got close enough :)
19:37:42 <ais523> int-e: it's a statement modifier that flips the abstention status once when the status runs, and then turns itself off, but it turns itself back on again if it gets externally abstained/reinstated
19:39:45 <b_jonas> and this is guaranteed to be atomic in that if two threads run into a statement that is currently reinstanted once only then exactly one will execute that statement?
19:40:35 <b_jonas> that's convenient, yes. though you'll also need some way to pause a thread without a spinloop.
19:41:02 <int-e> I think you have to spin here
19:42:13 <esolangs> [[Sculptlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137720&oldid=136486 * Ractangle * (+1)
19:42:15 <int-e> and nothing stops you from ineffectively REINSTATING a DO ... ONCE statement or ABSTAINING FROM a DON'T ... ONCE one.
19:42:39 <int-e> So there's some effort to make this awkward.
19:44:16 <b_jonas> “<int-e> inconsistent theories have no models, so are they ‘things’ at all” => yes, in that because there are interesting theories where we can't tell if they have models or not, we want to be able to talk about a model even if it might be inconsistent for all we know
19:44:36 <int-e> b_jonas: the link I'm looking at is https://web.archive.org/web/20160303230852/http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/intercal/threaded.html
19:44:40 <b_jonas> it's like being able to talk about a person who may be dead, even if a known dead person isn't interesting
19:45:22 <int-e> b_jonas: I was playing with the idea that the meta level is less tangible than the object level
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19:45:31 <int-e> and things should be tangible
19:45:36 <int-e> it wasn't too serious
19:47:28 <b_jonas> in that case you'd have to say that theories aren't things, regardless if they're consistent, only models are things
19:48:15 <int-e> I have bigger gripes in the same conceptual space... the reversed roles of reification and reflection in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflection-2.1.8/docs/Data-Reflection.html :P (values are concrete, so reification should be the process of expressing a type as a value, while reflection does the opposite... but no, it's the opposite)
19:49:18 <b_jonas> "I've never made an esolang because fleshing out ideas is hard." => the trick is to make a toy language or experimental language, and then posting it on the esolang wiki because those are off-topic enough
19:50:11 <b_jonas> by toy language I mean a language whose main goal is to learn how to implement a language; an experimental language is one that has features that are probably not good to put in a real language, but you want to explore their consequences so you put them into a language anyway.
19:50:55 <b_jonas> ok, not really, by toy language I mean a language whose main goal is to learn how to *design and develop* a language, which may involve implementing it, but that's not strictly necessary
19:52:26 <b_jonas> so toy language ends up as not practical mostly by the limitations of its creator, because they don't know how to make a good enough practical language; while experimental language ends up as not practical because you are trying an esoteric idea
19:52:48 <b_jonas> or too many strange ideas in the same language, where a few of those ideas may turn out to be good
19:53:13 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137721&oldid=132744 * Ractangle * (-28) /* See also */
19:53:25 <b_jonas> I don't care too much about whether such languages count as esoteric or not, they're on topic enough for the wiki and channel
19:53:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Uyjhmn--]] to [[I love circuit boards]]
19:54:14 <esolangs> [[I love circuit boards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137724&oldid=137722 * Ractangle * (-1719) Replaced content with "{{Stub}} '''I love circuit boards''' is a circuit board esolang [[Category:Languages]][[Category:2024]][[Category:Unimplemented]]"
19:58:44 <esolangs> [[I love circuit boards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137725&oldid=137724 * Ractangle * (+143)
20:09:00 <esolangs> [[NOP (esolang)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137726&oldid=137692 * Aadenboy * (+2)
20:13:36 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, what is call/pc ? I heard of call/cc and call/ec . is this something related to delimited continuations?
20:14:16 <int-e> 'p' is for 'previous' and there's an explanation of that in context
20:16:27 <b_jonas> "which I hoped would've been fixed when I updated CivetWeb" => I recently upgraded Oracle VirtualBox on my work machine because it sometimes used to crash with a segfault in the process running on the host. after the upgrade, multiple times it froze while the Windows guest was shutting down. this might not be a Virtualbox bug, it's possible that the guest freezes, but if so the timing is strange because
20:16:33 <b_jonas> I don't think that ever happened before, certainly not repeatedly.
20:20:03 <b_jonas> "<int-e> cf. https://xkcd.com/927/" => oh, there absolutely are that many standards for transliterating russian to latin script.
20:23:09 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137727&oldid=134895 * B jonas * (+152) /* Todo */ D-17, thank you for the reminder zzo38
20:24:01 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137728&oldid=132517 * Aadenboy * (+666) yet another rewrite
20:24:19 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137729&oldid=137728 * Aadenboy * (+1) whitespace fail
20:25:21 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137730&oldid=137729 * Aadenboy * (+16) /* who. who are you */ STYLE FAIL
20:28:28 <esolangs> [[Sculptlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137731&oldid=137720 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/137720|137720]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ractangle|Ractangle]] ([[User talk:Ractangle|talk]])
20:28:56 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137732&oldid=137656 * Tommyaweosme * (-62) Blanked the page
20:29:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137733&oldid=137732 * Tommyaweosme * (+62)
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20:36:55 <int-e> ais523: Hmm BuzzFizz should have enough for full LBA capability if we adopt a convention that the first input is 2^M if we want to simulate an M-bit tape. We get full finite control and counters modulo 2^M, and we can decrement a counter by zeroing an auxiliary counter, incrementing it once, and then incrementing both counters until the auxiliary counter is 0.
20:37:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137734&oldid=137733 * Tommyaweosme * (-62) Blanked the page
20:37:51 <int-e> also, else: isn't needed for full finite control; you can maintain your own modulo 2 counter for that instead
20:40:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137735&oldid=136372 * Tommyaweosme * (-157) uwu
20:40:10 <int-e> (incidentally the example that adds two numbers doesn't use else: either)
20:41:40 <int-e> also since if ...: can be nested you can implement finite control with N states with log_2(N) toggles.
20:42:34 <int-e> with a silly opportunity to employ a Gray code.
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21:02:49 <ais523> int-e: ooh, nice proof – so I guess the hard part is doing it only with the numbers in the input
21:03:49 <ais523> (also I was wondering when Tommyaweosme was going to blank that CSS page)
21:04:12 <ais523> that JS edit could be trouble, I think it is likely to screw up edited pages, cloud-to-butt style
21:04:34 <ais523> but I'll wait for it to demonstrate that it's a problem before blanking, just in case it isn't
21:05:27 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn--/Brainfuck interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137736&oldid=130673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+146) Link, category
21:05:37 <ais523> else: was included mostly because FizzBuzzes do that rather than for LBA-completeness
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21:14:03 <b_jonas> I haven't watched this recent video yet, but it has a clickbait title related to stuff on-topic here => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFoXooShZXc
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21:54:51 <esolangs> [[Imprecision]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137737&oldid=137711 * Ais523 * (+7) /* Computational class */ better wording
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22:48:35 <korvo> For the MtG fans who didn't see it yet: https://david.kolo.ski/blog/sort-library-steps-mtg/
22:48:50 <korvo> A judge discusses this in a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhZnHJBH4Ag
22:54:28 <esolangs> [[Stck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137738&oldid=131435 * Thebarra * (+19) /* More Examples */
22:57:31 <esolangs> [[Stck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137739&oldid=137738 * Thebarra * (+108) /* More Examples */
23:03:51 <b_jonas> https://www.righto.com/2023/08/datapoint-to-8086.html “Following the 8080, Intel intended to revolutionize microprocessors with a 32-bit ‘micro-mainframe’, the iAPX 432. This extremely complex processor implemented objects, memory management, interprocess communication, and fine-grained memory protection in hardware. The iAPX 432 was too ambitious and the project fell behind schedule, leaving
23:03:57 <b_jonas> Intel vulnerable against competitors such as Motorola and Zilog. Intel quickly threw together a 16-bit processor as a stopgap until the iAPX 432 was ready;” => that means Intel's microprocessor development lab was capable of executing and reordering independent models way before they made the Pentium and Pentium Pro which were their first CPUs that could execute independent instructions in parallel
23:04:03 <b_jonas> and reorder instruction respectively.
23:19:31 <b_jonas> https://www.righto.com/2024/08/pentium-navajo-fairchild-shiprock.html => hmm, do we have a thematic esolang for this, one where the source code is woven fabric and it's interpreted as if it were plans for an integrated circuit?
23:47:44 <zzo38> I don't know what is BoVeX. What I think would be useful in a typesetting system is to be able to include PostScript codes which can be executed during the decisions of typesetting, and not only at the end when the output is being made.
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23:55:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tommyaweosmalt * New user account
23:55:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137740&oldid=137640 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+184)
23:57:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137741&oldid=137657 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+496) /* unbrick needed */ new section
23:58:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosmalt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137742 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+139) Created page with "[[user:tommyaweosme]]s alt account made for a non-banevading reason. this account has never edited and never will edit [[esolang:sandbox]]"
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00:23:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://esolangs.org/wiki/BoVeX
00:38:19 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137743&oldid=137680 * Cycwin * (+2084)
00:46:00 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137744&oldid=137743 * Cycwin * (+238)
00:48:49 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137745&oldid=137744 * Cycwin * (+30)
00:50:27 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137746&oldid=137745 * Cycwin * (+31)
01:00:30 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137747&oldid=137746 * Cycwin * (+12)
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01:24:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137748&oldid=121104 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+354)
02:02:14 <zzo38> About setting up a standards organization but standards were not made, I think though, that I had tried to make up one, which is a chording keyboard that uses the same combinations as the IBM format of punched cards, e.g. 0 and 9 together will make "Z". There will be a separate space key and enter key.
02:21:08 <zzo38> The other thing I had wanted to do is like Dewey decimal system with TV shows and movies, so that you can select them by number on a on demand service. After each digit is entered, a menu can be displayed with the choices for the next digit, and then afterward finally you can select which one you want from that menu by entering the rest of the digits according to the specific movie you want.
02:55:18 <esolangs> [[(,)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137749&oldid=119053 * Dadsdy * (-42) /* Discord */
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04:15:06 <zzo38> (I had also written other stuff though, such as Scorpion protocol/file-format.)
04:15:42 <zzo38> Maybe we will be able to make a standard organization if you have ideas about what kind of standards documents you will intend to write.
04:16:24 <zzo38> I think that it was mentioned that my ideas about chording keyboard might be suitable. So, next time you make up something else, and then we will have enough to make it, even if they contradict each other
04:53:59 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137750&oldid=137714 * Ractangle * (-53) /* Esolangs */
04:57:37 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137751&oldid=137700 * Ractangle * (+109)
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06:49:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137752&oldid=137683 * Unname4798 * (+189)
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07:49:40 <esolangs> [[Animosian]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137753&oldid=75706 * Star651 * (+340) kinda sorta got implemented but not exactly
08:10:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: how would that be layed out? the most common modifiers 10, 11, 12 under your left fingers, 10-11, 10-12, 11-12 in a row above your left fingers; the less common 8, 9, 8-9 modifiers under your left pinky; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 keys under your right fingers and the row above them; enter key somewhere reachable with your right hand; space under your thumbs? or would it be more like eight of 1,
08:10:36 <b_jonas> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 in the home row; two copies each of the 10, 11, 12 modifiers above and 10-11, 10-12, 11-12 modifiers below the home row so you can use whichever is reachable with the other hand than the number you're pressing?
08:12:56 <b_jonas> or would you just start with a layout similar to traditional keyboards with separate keys for the 26 letters, 10 digits, and a few other, but then have two copies of the modifier to get lowercase equivalents that negate the 10, 11, 12 columns, and two copies of the 8 and 9 and 8-9 modifiers?
08:13:34 <b_jonas> (and a space and enter key, the space modifiable)
08:16:37 <b_jonas> that would not be too many keys, but I'm not sure it counts as chorded
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08:31:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gabenugget114 * New user account
08:36:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137754&oldid=137740 * Gabenugget114 * (+92)
08:36:56 <esolangs> [[User:Gabenugget114]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137755 * Gabenugget114 * (+2) Created page with "hi"
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10:35:21 <esolangs> [[/English version]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137756&oldid=137636 * None1 * (+2) /* Command in the language */
10:36:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Tommyaweosme/common.js]]": Author request: JS page that is rendering the account unable to edit
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10:37:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137757&oldid=137741 * Ais523 * (+229) /* unbrick needed */ unbricked hopefully
10:37:41 <esolangs> [[/English version]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137758&oldid=137756 * None1 * (+58)
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11:18:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137759&oldid=137717 * PrySigneToFry * (+466)
11:20:27 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137760&oldid=137751 * None1 * (+1)
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11:22:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137761&oldid=137225 * PrySigneToFry * (+745)
11:26:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137762&oldid=137647 * PrySigneToFry * (+195) I'll fliter the message with important level.
11:26:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137763&oldid=137762 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
11:27:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137764&oldid=137757 * None1 * (+216) /* Delete blank pages */
11:29:55 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137765 * PrySigneToFry * (+19) Redirected page to [[Nope.]]
11:30:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137766&oldid=137764 * None1 * (+279) /* the war */
11:35:45 <esolangs> [[The Esoteric File Archive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137767&oldid=82517 * None1 * (+13) /* Known mirrors */ probably dead
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11:39:36 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137768&oldid=136253 * PrySigneToFry * (+218)
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11:53:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137769&oldid=137763 * Ais523 * (-200) undo sorting a user talk page is generally useless, but if a user wants to do it, it should be up to them whether and how to do it, not up to visitors to the page edits by other users to user talk pages should primarily be for the purpose of sending messages to t
11:58:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[I love circuit boards]] to [[How dare you fuck the brain]]
12:01:44 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137772 * PrySigneToFry * (+1024) Created page with "MHPP: I think we're going to go crazy with ORK NON1: Yes, but we can make it crazier PSTF: This is my product {{PSTF's Version|None1|[[Translated ORK/None1 again2]]}} 1. Take the semi-product <pre> Cable texture. Nothing not nothing. Nothing
12:02:47 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137773&oldid=137770 * Ractangle * (+8)
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12:36:10 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137774&oldid=137773 * Ractangle * (+75) /* Syntax */
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12:37:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137775&oldid=137759 * Ractangle * (+29) /* test topic */
12:37:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137776&oldid=137775 * Ractangle * (+167) /* test topic */
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13:11:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137777&oldid=137766 * Tommyaweosme * (+181) /* unbrick needed */
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13:13:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137778&oldid=137752 * Tommyaweosme * (+210)
13:23:27 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unimplemented]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137779&oldid=137679 * None1 * (+252)
13:37:52 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137780&oldid=132328 * None1 * (+120) /* Related languages */
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13:52:57 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137781&oldid=137694 * Yayimhere * (+0)
13:53:18 <esolangs> [[Turing (Joshop)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137782&oldid=108909 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the creator
13:54:03 <esolangs> [[Atomless set computation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137783&oldid=108747 * PkmnQ * (-8) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/108747|108747]] by [[Special:Contributions/Squidmanescape|Squidmanescape]] ([[User talk:Squidmanescape|talk]])
13:54:40 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137784&oldid=108760 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:54:58 <esolangs> [[Gino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137785&oldid=109130 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:55:14 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137786&oldid=108894 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:55:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfucker++/SBFR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137787&oldid=108895 * PkmnQ * (-8) Page was blanked by the author
13:59:21 <esolangs> [[Chagz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137788&oldid=124079 * PkmnQ * (-16) Can probably be safely deleted
13:59:51 <esolangs> [[Miau]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137789&oldid=110915 * PkmnQ * (+2) Redirectify
14:00:39 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137790&oldid=137781 * Yayimhere * (+98)
14:00:59 <esolangs> [[BoredKat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137791&oldid=108880 * PkmnQ * (-20) Can probably be safely deleted
14:01:29 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137792&oldid=84021 * PkmnQ * (-22) Probably accidentally created
14:02:06 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137793&oldid=109114 * PkmnQ * (-22) Page was blanked by the author
14:02:30 <esolangs> [[Gino/Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137794&oldid=109129 * PkmnQ * (-22) Page was blanked by the author
14:02:54 <esolangs> [[Gdlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137795&oldid=130860 * PkmnQ * (-22) Page was blanked by the author
14:04:53 <esolangs> [[Sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137796&oldid=109374 * PkmnQ * (-15) Replace with template, author may choose to add page in the future
14:06:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sandbox/tr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137797 * PkmnQ * (+106) Created page with "Is this supposed to exist? --~~~~"
14:07:12 <esolangs> [[Marmite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137798&oldid=112492 * PkmnQ * (-27) Can probably be safely deleted
14:09:11 <esolangs> [[Lim95]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137799&oldid=99617 * PkmnQ * (-7) Probably accidentally created
14:10:11 <esolangs> [[Exclamation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137800&oldid=122306 * PkmnQ * (-8) Can probably be safely deleted
14:10:20 <esolangs> [[New]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137801&oldid=122307 * PkmnQ * (-8) Can probably be safely deleted
14:11:29 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137802&oldid=79822 * PkmnQ * (-14) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:05 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE turing completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137803&oldid=131824 * PkmnQ * (-28) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:29 <esolangs> [[C-trice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137804&oldid=108903 * PkmnQ * (-31) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:45 <esolangs> [[FunctionsFTW/FizzBizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137805&oldid=93699 * PkmnQ * (-31) Can probably be safely deleted
14:12:57 <esolangs> [[Alexa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137806&oldid=109845 * PkmnQ * (-31) Can probably be safely deleted
14:13:08 <esolangs> [[Robotic Smiley Face]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137807&oldid=109961 * PkmnQ * (+1) Redirected page to [[Robotic smiley face]]
14:13:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137808&oldid=91005 * PkmnQ * (-34) Probably accidentally created
14:14:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137809 * PkmnQ * (+114) Created page with "Is this supposed to be a redirect? --~~~~"
14:15:00 <esolangs> [[Quoi?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137810&oldid=112869 * PkmnQ * (-36) Can probably be safely deleted
14:15:06 <esolangs> [[Quoi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137811&oldid=112868 * PkmnQ * (-36) Can probably be safely deleted
14:15:19 <esolangs> [[Business Offers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137812&oldid=108901 * PkmnQ * (-41) Can probably be safely deleted
14:16:44 <esolangs> [[LambdaStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137813&oldid=101633 * PkmnQ * (-50) Can probably be safely deleted
14:19:09 <esolangs> [[Disk Drive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137814&oldid=106434 * PkmnQ * (-62) Redirected page to [[]]
14:20:06 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137815 * Yayimhere * (+413) Created page with "'''BuzzFish''' is a esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] to demonstrate the problem with [[Looping counter]]s. == the syntax == BuzzFish has 3 commands: *: print * and a newline |''x''}: loops x forever |''x''}=: move the string |x}= to after the = == the problem == the
14:20:46 <esolangs> [[Pinecone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137816&oldid=92298 * PkmnQ * (+23) Hopefully someone remembers what this esolang does
14:20:48 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/BuzzFish
14:21:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sleep]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137817 * PkmnQ * (+97) Created page with "Is this esoteric? --~~~~"
14:22:06 <esolangs> [[Chaos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137818&oldid=109100 * PkmnQ * (-14)
14:22:44 <esolangs> [[OCDMess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137819&oldid=110035 * PkmnQ * (-89) Can probably be safely deleted
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14:27:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137820&oldid=137778 * Unname4798 * (+250)
14:27:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137821&oldid=137337 * None1 * (+315)
14:29:31 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137822&oldid=124504 * None1 * (+1)
14:30:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Chagz]]": apparent test page, has never had useful content
14:31:59 <esolangs> [[BoredKat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137823&oldid=137791 * Ais523 * (+25) manual revert back to being a redirect it is possible there are still links to the old name of the language, and a redirect is more useful than a missing page
14:34:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Sandbox/tr]]": apparent (very old) attempt to test a template but it doesn't make sense to keep tests around indefinitely, and normally userspace is a better place for that sort of test
14:34:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Sandbox/tr]]": delete the talk page, too
14:34:50 <ais523> wWwwW: can that even do a looping counter? you at least need * and the newline to be separate commands
14:36:13 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137824&oldid=137815 * Yayimhere * (+40)
14:36:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]]": Author request
14:37:03 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137825&oldid=137824 * Yayimhere * (+69)
14:37:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/common.js]]": Author request
14:37:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/vector.css]]": Author request
14:37:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Unname4798/vector.js]]": Author request
14:38:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137826&oldid=137820 * Ais523 * (+146) /* Unrated */ deleted
14:40:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[LambdaStack]] to [[User:Squidmanescape]]: revert accidental move of a userpage to mainspace temporarily deleting the replacement userpage to do the history merge, I will undelete it once the history merge is finished
14:40:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Squidmanescape]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[LambdaStack]]"
14:41:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * undeleted "[[User:Squidmanescape]]": history merge
14:41:21 <wWwwW> ais523: now it works right?
14:41:51 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137828&oldid=137827 * Ais523 * (+2202) select the correct revision to be the current revision, after the history merge
14:42:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Business Offers]]": apparent test page, has never had useful content
14:43:42 <esolangs> [[Quoi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137829&oldid=137811 * Ais523 * (+19) manual revert back to being a redirect it is possible there are still links to the old name of the language, and a redirect is more useful than a missing page
14:46:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:PkmnQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137830 * Ais523 * (+814) thanks for finding abandoned pages
14:47:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang1]]": accidentally created page, all content is also included at [[User:Esolang1]] which is the correct name for the page
14:48:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Alexa]]": abandoned page, has never had useful content
14:49:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[FunctionsFTW/FizzBizz]]": redirect left behind after a typo was corrected in the page title
14:51:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE turing completeness]]": Author request: early draft of a TCness proof that's now superseded by (and redundant to) the proof on the main article, and the author requested deletion
14:52:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[StupidStackLanguage:Examples]]": redirect left behind after the page title was corrected to fit the naming convention
14:54:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Lim95]]": apparent test page, has never had useful content
14:54:48 <wWwwW> lots of deletions today
14:55:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Marmite]]": abandoned page, has never had useful content
14:55:52 <ais523> wWwwW: someone went through blanking all the pages they thought should be deleted
14:56:03 <ais523> they weren't right on all of them, but got quite a lot right, so I went around deleting it properly
14:56:34 <wWwwW> shouldn't the creator be able to delete their pages?
14:56:48 <ais523> if it's soon after creation, typically yes
14:56:52 <wWwwW> so you and others dont need to delete it when they blank it
14:56:56 <ais523> if it's older it gets more complicated, because pages aren't owned by people
14:57:25 <wWwwW> if its something like bf you shouldnt be able to do that
14:57:25 <ais523> and if, say, the only description of an esolang is on the wiki but the creator doesn't feel like maintaining it, sometimes they try to delete the page, but then the description would be lost
14:58:02 <ais523> so those are controversial, and normally need more than one opinion to delete
14:58:21 <ais523> I generally leave the page in whatever state it's in, because that's easiest for me to do
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14:59:15 <ais523> as for BuzzFish, you might as well, e.g., just add a looping counter to HQ9+, it still would be less powerful than a linear-bounded automaton in almost all respects, but it would be able to implement one program the linear-bounded automaton couldn't
14:59:39 <ais523> so it's not *strictly* less powerful
15:00:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137831&oldid=137715 * Yayimhere * (+15)
15:00:20 <ais523> there's an HQ9+ variant https://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9%2B with a command defined as "makes the language Turing-complete" – that's the definition, it doesn't say how
15:00:26 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137832&oldid=137825 * Yayimhere * (+16)
15:01:00 <ais523> I think there's some debate about what that does to the computational class
15:01:09 <wWwwW> so it could be a run the stack as the memory(idk if dis exists) of a universal tag system
15:01:47 <ais523> OK, 18 deletions is a lot (although it's actually only 16 because 2 of them were a history merge, which requires temporarily deleting pages but they get restored afterward)
15:05:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[DimensionDoors]]": accidentally created page, duplicate of [[User:DimensionDoors]] which is the correct name for it
15:05:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:DimensionDoors]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: accidentally created page, duplicate of [[User:DimensionDoors]] which is the correct name for it
15:06:32 <esolangs> [[Gdlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137833&oldid=137795 * Ais523 * (+20) manual revert back to being a redirect it is possible there are still links to the old name of the language, and a redirect is more useful than a missing page
15:07:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Sequence]]": No content; content was: "{{Stub}}", has never had content other than the stub template or an equivalent
15:08:50 <ais523> it doesn't make any sense to make a page that's marked as a stub but nothing else, but apparently people do it sometimes
15:10:36 <ais523> at Wikipedia there are short letter+number codes for all the common ways people make pages that are either entirely useless or rulebreaking and can be deleted immediately, containing no useful content at all is A3
15:11:17 <wWwwW> thats pre''y smart
15:11:21 <ais523> I think it's mostly to stop people deleting pages unilaterally when there's supposed to be discussion first, if you don't know an appropriate code you can't delete the page (some admins get a bit trigger-happy with the deletes)
15:11:35 <wWwwW> also gentoo boot menu is TC... for some reason
15:13:39 <ais523> I once wrote a config file format by starting with it being TC and then placing restrictions on it until it wasn't, which is the other way round from how most people design config file formats
15:13:54 <ais523> maybe Gentoo's boot menu did it the other way round from me
15:14:08 <wWwwW> why do you want it to not be TC?
15:14:24 <ais523> because then it isn't really a config file, it's just a program
15:15:01 <ais523> and in particular I was working on a project where people doing similar projects were trying to put too much logic into the config files rather than putting it into the program being configured, where it should be
15:15:06 <ais523> so I wanted it to be sub-TC intentionally
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15:18:27 <wWwwW> i would like to see a ocnfig creating esolang
15:19:24 <ais523> not intentionally designed as one, I think
15:19:48 <ais523> there are almost certainly config file formats that turned into accidental esolangs
15:20:22 <wWwwW> then maybe some random config format is the first esolang?
15:21:36 <ais523> maybe, although early config file formats were very simple
15:27:05 <wWwwW> how the hell did conway get into esolangs??(fractan))
15:29:26 <ais523> so Conway seems to have been interested in showing that certain mathematical problems are hard to solve
15:29:51 <ais523> and there are very few ways we know of to prove that solving a problem is hard or impossible
15:30:14 <ais523> most problems that we know to be unsolvable, we know it because we can reduce them to the halting problem
15:30:30 <wWwwW> xD why is that so funny to me
15:30:37 <ais523> Conway was trying to show that the Collatz problem was difficult, and did so by showing that generalized Collatz problems were Turing-complete
15:30:49 <ais523> and Fractran was an esolang invented for the TCness proof
15:31:05 <wWwwW> yea that reminded me of something
15:31:27 <wWwwW> in the esolang comunity(and other mathemtical comunities)
15:31:43 <wWwwW> it is that after a person has made a lot of esolangs
15:32:02 <wWwwW> they begin using it in their proofs
15:32:10 <wWwwW> kinda like some of your esolangs
15:32:15 <wWwwW> idk why it happens
15:33:07 <ais523> many of my esolangs were created for proofs, and often they turn out to be useful in more than one proof
15:33:39 <ais523> also, "easy to implement esolangs that are TC and are useful for proving things" is one of the main sorts of esolang that I actively look for, it's where a lot of my esolanging effort goes
15:33:44 <ais523> so it isn't surprising that I found quite a few of them
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15:34:59 <ais523> I can sometimes put a huge amount of effort into taking an easy-to-implement TC language (like Cyclic Tag) and trying to make a derivative that's marginally easier to implement, and still TC, but the effort is that often it's a lot harder to prove TCness (like with Acyclic Tag, Grill Tag or Echo Tag, which are cyclic tag with added restrictions that make it easier to implement in some languages)
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15:38:13 <ais523> The Waterfall Model and Spiral Rise seem to be my best discoveries in terms of being TC yet easy to implement in esolangs and other low-powered languages
15:38:16 <wWwwW> hey ais523: do you think it would be possible to construct a computational model(or comp class) that matches not's power
15:38:50 <wib_jonas> wWwwW "i would like to see a ocnfig creating esolang" => I think there was one of those. IIRC it wasn't just turing-complete but had full access to C-level userspace, and used a syntax where commands were made of an opcode byte plus usually two register names, and I think the registers were named of the 52 ascii letters and maybe more but
15:38:51 <wib_jonas> partitioned to like 6 groups with fixed type traditional fortran style
15:39:00 <wib_jonas> but I'm probably misremembering most of this
15:39:26 <wib_jonas> oh hey, here it is => https://esolangs.org/wiki/Scrip7
15:39:44 <ais523> one thing I noticed is that Not is almost a subset of Underload: it has (1) * : S (¶)S (in Underload syntax), plus an infinite loop which is expressible in Underload but isn't a simple command
15:39:48 <wib_jonas> I just had to search https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=configuration+floating&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go
15:41:05 <wib_jonas> "the first version of the idea had seven registers in all 8 forms, and the author forgot that the alphabet has 26 letters, not 28"
15:41:57 <ais523> hmm, I think Not's computational class can be described like this: you have a counter that grows by a fixed amount at every iteration, and can output fixed strings of 1 and can also output the counter, but can't do anything else
15:42:23 <wWwwW> thats not tc for sure
15:42:24 <ais523> wib_jonas: that makes me think that the esolang should just have added two more letters, œ and æ perhaps
15:42:55 <ais523> those are less symmetrical but easier to type
15:43:24 <wWwwW> i mistype stuff with these so often loæ
15:44:27 <wib_jonas> ais523: in the current form one of the code pointer (as in Script7 code, not C code) typed variables, named G, is the instruction pointer, the so the nice symmetry of 7 general purpose registers in each type would be broken again
15:45:06 <wWwwW> œ and æ are the same???? right???
15:45:12 <wib_jonas> also Script7 basically just *removed* the letters g h G H
15:45:16 <ais523> no, one is a mix of an o and an e, the other is a mix of an a and an e
15:45:34 <wWwwW> they look so simileair
15:45:47 <ais523> æ used to be used in some older English words, but nowadays is normally typed as "ae" or just "e"; œ is used in French
15:46:13 <wWwwW> and maybe swedish(idk)
15:47:03 <wWwwW> cuz denmark has it
15:47:16 <wWwwW> and we just f'ing do that to people ig
15:48:20 <wWwwW> juts like denmark used to have norway
15:57:18 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137834&oldid=137790 * Yayimhere * (+82)
15:57:39 <wWwwW> ^^ progress has been made on the comp class
15:59:58 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137835&oldid=137834 * Yayimhere * (+68)
16:04:11 <wWwwW> what would you expect dis esolangs comp class to be?
16:05:44 <ais523> I am not sure – my guess is that it's TC but it isn't obvious and I don't have a proof
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16:09:00 <esolangs> [[Instructistuctisurcticitstucrit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137836 * Tommyaweosme * (+774) Created page with "{{lowercase}}instructistuctisurcticitstucrit is a language where you have to code in one program to code in another etc. to finally get to [[brainfuck]]. == how it works == code a [[befunge program]] read the stack: ...987654321 where 1 is
16:09:15 <esolangs> [[Instructistuctisurcticitstucrit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137837&oldid=137836 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
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16:34:16 <wWwwW> hey also ais523 can you understand rectangle now?
16:35:58 <ais523> I understand it a bit better
16:36:22 <ais523> I haven't really thought about how to program in it, though
16:37:05 <wWwwW> i have a question about Is It Art?. would it be possible to construct a program that always accepts input
16:37:51 <ais523> I think so, one simple way is to have all the pieces rectangular and all having letters that represent input on them
16:38:08 <ais523> it isn't I/O complete because if input X maps to output Y, then input XX maps to output YY
16:38:26 <ais523> although, you could just dedicated some symbol to "end of input" to work around that
16:39:10 <wWwwW> could we maybe tro to create that program??
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16:53:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/befunge scripts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137838 * Tommyaweosme * (+346) Created page with "unincluding the [[user:tommyaweosmalt|one i made on my alt]]: == hello world! == v v"hello world!"< @,,,,,,< >,,,,,^ == program that ends itself with no @ in sight == 88*60p == fizzbuzz (looks like cherries) == &
16:57:25 <wWwwW> i just got a f'ing stupid idea
17:01:10 <wWwwW> can i get feedback?
17:02:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: My intention was to use a small keyboard not much bigger than a telephone keypad, although I am not sure which orientation will be best. (I also did not think lowercase will be needed for the use of this kind of keyboard, and that it is not intended for when you have a full keyboard available but for when you use a small keyboad without too many keys.)
17:03:56 <wWwwW> that whats the program does is it modifies itself
17:04:02 <wWwwW> and not like emmental
17:04:19 <wWwwW> like it modifies the WAY its compiler works
17:04:58 <ais523> there are a lot of self-modifying languages on the wiki already, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying – you could look at some of those for inspiration or to see if your idea's already been done
17:05:11 <wWwwW> it just fro goes into the compiler and just modifies the code
17:05:21 <wWwwW> not thta kind of self modifying
17:05:28 <ais523> wow, 319, I don't have all of those memorised (yet, or probably ever)
17:05:46 <ais523> I think that there are probably some that replace the interpreter already
17:05:57 <ais523> editing it rather than replacing it is a bit rarer, though
17:06:08 <wWwwW> but i dont mean something like: make dis command do dis code
17:06:26 <wWwwW> i mean that it actually modifies the code that inteprets the program
17:07:03 <ais523> so the problem with that is, if you are just editing the interpreter rather than just outright replacing it, you would need to specify what language the interpreter is written in, to be able to edit it
17:07:26 <wWwwW> maybe you could do *two layer* interpretation
17:07:46 <ais523> also, there is the potential problem that the program might edit the interpreter to just do everything on its own without even looking at the program
17:08:03 <ais523> so you'd effectively be programming in the outer language rather than in the esolang
17:08:17 <wWwwW> it coul prop be made better
17:09:22 <wWwwW> what if like the memory was the intepreter
17:10:09 <ais523> maybe what you want is an esoteric programming style in an existing language
17:10:33 <wWwwW> that sentence made no sense to me
17:10:47 <ais523> like, imagine a Python library that just alters bytes in memory directly, and only the bytes that correspond to the Python interpreter's memory image
17:11:05 <ais523> and all the language can do is "set byte X to value Y"
17:11:21 <wWwwW> where dis idea comes from is from 90
17:11:24 <ais523> but I think it might be uninteresting because people would just write a small machine code program that did all the work itself
17:11:40 <ais523> 90 works around the problem by not letting you add code, you can only delete it
17:11:53 <wWwwW> that would be cool
17:12:02 <wWwwW> the esolang is its own CPU
17:12:12 <wWwwW> then the bytes wont have the prblem of the computer
17:12:23 <ais523> then what is running the program?
17:12:24 <wWwwW> so it woudlnt have the problem 90
17:12:44 <wWwwW> ais523: and itepret which in intepreting the cpu which is interpeting the esolang
17:13:24 <ais523> so does the esolang change the CPU?
17:13:50 <wWwwW> it modifies the cpus compiler for it
17:13:56 <wWwwW> wow dis is confusing
17:14:26 <ais523> hmm, I have used the tools that are used to compile CPUs (rather than compiling software) – placing all the transistors and the like is very hard by hand, so computers are used to do it
17:14:28 <esolangs> [[Instructistuctisurcticitstucrit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137839&oldid=137837 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) Categories
17:14:39 <ais523> but they're generally closed-source and awkward to use, with bad interfaces
17:15:01 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137840&oldid=137832 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:15:14 <wWwwW> idc about how computationally possible it is
17:15:22 <wWwwW> like if its hard to compile or whatever
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17:18:36 <esolangs> [[Pinecone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137841&oldid=137816 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+100) Wayback, GitHub, categories
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17:20:18 <esolangs> [[LCTDNH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137842&oldid=111110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:21:23 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137843&oldid=137774 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) Categories
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17:29:53 <esolangs> [[BuzzFizz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137844&oldid=137718 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) Category
17:31:40 <int-e> ais523: I guess the obvious LBA task that BuzzFizz cannot accomplish without tweaking the input is reading a sequence of numbers in {1,2} and output them in reverse.
17:33:11 <zzo38> The standard organization can be made from some common conventions (e.g. RFC 2119) as well as uncommon conventions. Furthermore, they should be made 100% public domain They should be made in a way that can use a simple protocol and simple file (e.g. plain ASCII files) since otherwise it is difficult to access the file that you cannot know without reading the specification first.
17:33:41 <esolangs> [[BuzzFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137845&oldid=137840 * Yayimhere * (+17)
17:34:29 <zzo38> There are several of "small web protocols" (I made a document which a list of them and some brief descriptions). If you need virtual hosting, then Nightfall Express won't do, and Gopher without TLS also won't do. Gopher with TLS has a problem due to how the gopher menu is made, but you could use a DNS record to specify that TLS is required if you do not have version 6 internet.
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17:36:11 <ais523> int-e: it possibly can if it takes them as digits of a single number? although that program seems like a pain to write
17:36:11 <wWwwW> is it a good idea tho?
17:36:36 <ais523> I think it would take too much effort to do well, and wouldn't really want to see it done badly
17:38:08 <zzo38> I don't know if they had considered using DNS records to avoid that problem of using gopher with TLS.
17:40:23 <int-e> ais523: Yeah that'll work... encode your input using only non-zero digits in a suitable base; do the same for the output (you can set aside a dedicated counter for accumulating the output). Also, yes, painful.
17:40:40 <wWwwW> ais523: for making the cpu i could just uselike idk assembly
17:42:18 <zzo38> (The DNS record can also specify that TLS is available but is not required even with version 4 internet, in case you do not need virtual hosting.)
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18:14:45 <zzo38> (I have seen gopher servers that require version 6 internet (I think it is the gopher server for INTERCAL), and I don't know if this might be why.)
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18:34:44 <int-e> The server may not have an IPv4 address. They often cost extra these days.
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18:38:21 <zzo38> They did have a HTTP server with a version 4 address though.
18:46:56 <int-e> It could be the lack of name-based virtual hosting (HTTP has a Host: header after version 1.1 I think?; Gopher doesn't have anything like that). Or there could be a
18:47:07 <int-e> Err... Or there could be no technical reason at all.
18:52:17 <zzo38> Yes, maybe there is no reason and they just did it, although lack of virtual hosting is also what I had mentioned; however, virtual hosting will be possible with TLS.
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19:00:31 <zzo38> But with version 6 internet, I would expect that they will have enough addresses that name-based virtual hosting will not be needed, I think.
19:02:22 <zzo38> So, protocols with virtual hosting can also be set up with servers with version 4 internet that can be forwarded to the appropriate version 6 addresses. In some cases TLS will be required for doing this but sometimes it can be done without TLS (although gopher isn't one of them).
19:02:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think two things you'll want to decide about the keyboard is (1) the typical largest set of fingers that users are expected to type on it, eg. on a qwerty keyboard you can use all fingers on both hands; on typical small mobile phone keypads you use just one finger; on some small keypads you'd use two thumbs; some calculators you can use with either one thumb when handheld, or one finger each
19:02:43 <b_jonas> from one hand if you put the calculator down onto a desk;
19:06:01 <b_jonas> (2) and how it processes the keydown and keyup events: for a normal keyboard you usually only care about keydown of non-modifier keys, and the up or down status of modifiers at the moment when the non-modifier is pressed, you ignore keyups of non-modifier keys and ignore the up/down status of modifiers at all other times; a mobile phone keypad usually only cares about keydowns and only when no other key
19:06:07 <b_jonas> is pressed, you then have to release all keys simultaneously before you can press a new key, this is a good way to ignore the effects of most accidental fat fingerings; while I think a stegano keyboard allows you to press the keys in a chord in any order, and goes to the next syllable when you release all the normal keys
19:06:28 <b_jonas> of course (2) can be decided in software in any case.
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19:16:28 <zzo38> OK, that is valid to consider. For (2), I did think to do that all keys must be released before it is worked and another keys can be entered, but I did not consider (1).
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20:10:05 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137846&oldid=137701 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2384) Added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp.
20:10:15 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137847&oldid=137843 * Ractangle * (+104)
20:11:08 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137848&oldid=137847 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Syntax */
20:11:31 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137849&oldid=137846 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Inserted a missing newline instruction (N) in the original example.
20:11:56 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137850&oldid=137848 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Syntax */
20:18:13 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137851&oldid=137850 * Ractangle * (+146) /* Syntax */
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20:22:02 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137852&oldid=137851 * Ractangle * (+60) /* Syntax */
20:22:15 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137853&oldid=137852 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Syntax */
20:22:58 <esolangs> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137854&oldid=136696 * Graue * (-4) /* Example code */
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20:40:18 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137855 * Tommyaweosme * (+11) Created page with "{{yearcat}}"
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00:43:03 <esolangs> [[Sdac2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137858&oldid=137747 * Cycwin * (+53)
00:56:20 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137859&oldid=137275 * TheCanon2 * (+19)
00:57:03 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137860&oldid=137859 * TheCanon2 * (+1)
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01:16:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:0 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137861&oldid=135254 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+163) /* bad name :( */ new section
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01:46:42 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137862 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+469) Created page with "made by ~~~~ . jumps to instruction accumulator , input h halt c output char goto 0 if at 256 ==Programs== ===truth machine=== ,iiiis. soh ddddddddddddddddddddddddoiiii
01:47:11 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137863&oldid=134270 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+41)
03:15:15 <zzo38> I can make up a way for name-based forwarding of connections, which may be helpful in several cases, e.g. forwarding from a version 4 to several version 6, sharing on a single computer with the same address where multiple servers may be running, forwarding to a computer that is not directly connected to the internet, forwarding through a reverse connection in case they cannot listen directly, etc.
03:16:06 <zzo38> However, as far as I have found, SSH does not have virtual hosting. Do you know why they did not add that, even though TLS does have virtual hosting?
03:19:43 <zzo38> (or is that wrong?)
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03:57:32 <zzo38> It can be done directly by reading the client's request, before the server sends to the client, with: TLS, HTTP, Spartan, Scorpion (unencrypted). For some protocols it would require handling some of the functions in between, which means that it is not suitable for all uses, but might sometimes work for some uses, such as: SMTP, NNTP, IRC.
04:06:30 <zzo38> Do you like "Movie decimal system" which can be like a Dewey decimal systems, but with TV shows and movies
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04:53:35 <korvo> I gather that SSH supports key dispatch at the protocol level, although I don't know how often it's implemented. It doesn't need vhosts; it has vkeys.
04:54:42 <korvo> (Key dispatch can be hacked with e.g. OpenSSH on Linux by creating users whose login shells execute a fixed action, and then doing per-user key dispatch. Don't laugh -- this is how git-push works with forges!)
05:06:27 <esolangs> [[FOLDERS text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137864&oldid=94706 * Yayimhere * (-14) replace external link since it was too the wiki anyway
05:10:23 <esolangs> [[Notf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137865&oldid=135902 * Yayimhere * (+138)
05:10:57 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137866&oldid=137849 * Yayimhere * (-2523) /* Implementation */
05:11:03 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137867&oldid=137866 * Yayimhere * (+2524) /* why tho */
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05:16:37 <zzo38> OK, but can it work if you do not already have a key (e.g. if it is a public service that does not require a password or a key to log in)?
05:55:25 <esolangs> [[Chaos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137868&oldid=137818 * PkmnQ * (+72)
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07:37:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: ssh has *client-side* virtual hosting: you can easily configure it to use fake hostnames, set any options including the actual hostname to connect to based on the hostname. I've done that many years ago, though I'm not using it right now. This is convenient because then you can use those hostnames in programs that use ssh as a lower-level program to access remote hosts, such as rsync or svn.
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09:06:58 <esolangs> [[NOP (esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137869&oldid=137726 * None1 * (-9) /* Interpreters */ it is not the shortest since an empty program is shorter
09:10:42 <esolangs> [[Chicken you too beautiful]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137870&oldid=126536 * None1 * (+27)
09:24:50 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137871&oldid=137855 * Unname4798 * (+37)
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10:08:46 <esolangs> [[Reversefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137872 * None1 * (+25) Redirected page to [[ReverseFuck]]
10:18:53 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137873&oldid=137867 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+578) Formatted code fragments as such and introduced an aperu of the instruction set.
10:19:13 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137874&oldid=124538 * None1 * (+18)
10:19:39 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137875 * None1 * (+2130) Created page with " is a derivative of [[ReverseFuck]] but in Chinese. It's created by [[User:None1]], and it is a member of [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]]. It is equivalent to [[ReverseFuck]], which is equivalent to [[brainfuck]]. It is also the reverse of [[]], just like [[ReverseFuck]] is
10:19:57 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137876&oldid=137875 * None1 * (+1) /* Commands */
10:21:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137877&oldid=137674 * None1 * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */
10:22:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137878&oldid=137877 * None1 * (+2) /* Non-alphabetic */
10:22:56 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137879&oldid=137568 * None1 * (+25) /* My Esolangs */
10:23:58 <esolangs> [[Translated Die Deutsche Programmiersprache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137880&oldid=137566 * None1 * (+12)
10:27:42 <esolangs> [[Chicken you too beautiful]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137881&oldid=137870 * None1 * (+26) /* Turing completeness */
10:28:12 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137882&oldid=137876 * None1 * (+73) /* Interpreters */
10:34:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:0 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137883&oldid=137861 * None1 * (+308) /* bad name :( */
10:35:32 <esolangs> [[Chicken you too beautiful]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137884&oldid=137881 * None1 * (-26) /* See also */ Wrong place
10:37:48 <esolangs> [[Translated JNTM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137885 * None1 * (+2099) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|f=horribly translated [[Chicken you too beautiful]]}} It goes through simple translations, but it is wierd. 1. Take this program (as an example): <pre class="rectwrap"> chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken rap beauti
10:38:56 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137886&oldid=137567 * None1 * (+85) /* Horribly translated variants */
10:39:39 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137887&oldid=137879 * None1 * (+85) /* My Esolangs */
10:40:05 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137888&oldid=137874 * None1 * (+13) /* See also */
10:40:59 <esolangs> [[ReverseFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137889&oldid=115067 * None1 * (+26) /* External resources */
10:48:33 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137890&oldid=137750 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Esolangs */
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10:53:49 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn--/Brainfuck interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137891&oldid=137736 * Ractangle * (-1017) Replaced content with "{{Stub}}"
10:54:19 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn--/Brainfuck interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137892&oldid=137891 * Ractangle * (+38)
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11:35:31 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137893 * None1 * (+3698) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|f=an esolang which uses English abbrevations for tokens}} ==Syntax== In the Syntax column, \n represents line feeds. Tokens are case insensitive. {| class="wikitable" ! Token !! Meaning in English (If you wonder) !! Syntax !! What it does |- | lo
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11:42:42 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137894&oldid=137893 * None1 * (-1) /* Syntax */
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12:05:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137895&oldid=137878 * None1 * (-58) /* P */
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12:06:08 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137896&oldid=137886 * None1 * (+77) /* General languages */
12:08:02 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137897&oldid=137887 * None1 * (+64) /* My Esolangs */
12:10:29 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137898&oldid=137894 * None1 * (+8) /* Syntax */
12:11:32 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137899&oldid=137898 * None1 * (+42) /* Fibonacci (recursion) */
12:12:07 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137900&oldid=137899 * None1 * (+34) /* Syntax */
12:12:41 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137901&oldid=137900 * None1 * (+2) /* Syntax */
12:12:58 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137902&oldid=137901 * None1 * (-2) /* Syntax */
12:13:30 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137903&oldid=137902 * None1 * (+1) /* Fibonacci (recursion) */
12:13:43 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137904&oldid=137903 * None1 * (+0) /* Fibonacci (recursion) */
12:14:02 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137905&oldid=137904 * None1 * (+7) /* Fibonacci (recursion) */
12:14:47 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137906&oldid=137905 * None1 * (+46) /* Truth Machine */
12:15:22 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137907&oldid=137906 * None1 * (-2) /* Truth Machine */
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12:53:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Uyjhmn--/Brainfuck interpreter]] to [[Opal]]
12:54:39 <esolangs> [[Opal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137910&oldid=137908 * Ractangle * (+24)
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12:56:44 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137911&oldid=137907 * None1 * (+57) /* Examples */
12:57:16 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137912&oldid=137911 * None1 * (-9) /* Standard library */
12:59:20 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137913&oldid=137912 * None1 * (+74) /* Examples */
13:00:00 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137914&oldid=135625 * None1 * (+89) /* Powershell */
13:05:41 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137915&oldid=137913 * None1 * (+2) /* Fibonacci (recursion) */
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13:12:25 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137916&oldid=137915 * None1 * (-10)
13:14:46 <esolangs> [[PostScriptum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137917&oldid=137916 * None1 * (+363)
13:21:03 <esolangs> [[Palindrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137918&oldid=47145 * None1 * (+126) /* External resources */
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14:14:17 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137919 * DGCK81LNN * (+752) Created page with "{{Stub}} WhatLang is a stack-based programming language created by [[User:YufangTSTSU]] (Yufang). Written in TypeScript, its first interpreter is a private (not published on ''npm'') plugin for [https://koishi.chat Koishi], a bot framework for QQ and other instant me
14:14:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137920&oldid=137895 * DGCK81LNN * (+15) /* W */
14:15:52 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137921&oldid=137919 * DGCK81LNN * (+61)
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15:06:29 <wWwwW> somebody made a frickin Not intepret. wow
15:30:02 <fizzie> fungot's gone missing again. :/
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15:30:47 <fizzie> fungot: You're such a flaky bot.
15:30:47 <fungot> fizzie: no time for it. actually good hacker practice imho. not about that.
15:37:49 <fizzie> (It's just one of those bots.)
15:38:56 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal#.23Esoteric > The channel is visited by a large number of bots (some of which come and go), including fungot, HackEso, EgoBot, lambdabot, thutubot, metasepia, idris-bot, myndzi, jconn, j-bot, bfbot, velik, and esolangs (irc).
15:38:56 <fungot> fizzie: filled in my fnord are working on scheme :( mind you that pakistan is 140 million fnord country with fnord of
15:39:09 <fizzie> Many of them have departed though.
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15:52:29 <wWwwW> i got a ping buyt idk wut it was.anybody who mentioned me?
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17:01:13 <esolangs> [[Word worm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137922&oldid=137492 * Yayimhere * (+81)
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17:53:55 <wWwwW> what do you think?:
17:53:55 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Byte
18:03:53 <wWwwW> wait i wont have time
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18:26:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * OllyBritton * uploaded "[[File:Fibonacci example.png]]"
18:36:52 <esolangs> [[CALC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137924 * OllyBritton * (+11668) Created page with "== Language overview == '''CALC''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:OllyBritton]] based on the kinds of expression which a simple scientific calculator with memory allows. It was designed to demonstrate that the Casio FX-991EX can do arbitrary com
18:38:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137925&oldid=137920 * OllyBritton * (+11)
18:38:56 <esolangs> [[CALC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137926&oldid=137924 * OllyBritton * (-32)
18:43:28 <esolangs> [[Opal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137927&oldid=137910 * Ractangle * (+180)
18:44:22 <esolangs> [[Over-Objective Programming Language (Opal)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137928&oldid=107081 * Ractangle * (+31)
18:45:51 <esolangs> [[CALC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137929&oldid=137926 * OllyBritton * (-4)
18:54:45 <esolangs> [[Opal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137930&oldid=137927 * Ractangle * (+151)
18:54:58 <esolangs> [[Not]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137931&oldid=137873 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+4) Amended the Common Lisp implementation's orthography.
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20:10:35 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137932&oldid=137921 * DGCK81LNN * (+2655)
20:20:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[LX]] to [[Assembolge]]
20:23:01 <esolangs> [[Assembolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137935&oldid=137933 * Ractangle * (-770)
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20:55:35 <esolangs> [[Opal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137936&oldid=137930 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
20:59:29 <esolangs> [[CALC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137937&oldid=137929 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) /* Implementations */ Categories
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21:11:01 <zzo38> Is there a TLS extension to include a ASN.1 data with an error condition?
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21:35:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shriansh * New user account
21:36:26 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137938&oldid=137871 * Tommyaweosme * (-37) no u
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23:58:56 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137939&oldid=137932 * DGCK81LNN * (+3167)
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00:45:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fortran]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137940 * Tommyaweosme * (+238) Created page with "help this page doesnt exist and no proof of it existing exists plsplsplspslplspls add it back ~~~~"
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02:13:29 <esolangs> [[Boolshit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137941&oldid=108195 * Tommyaweosme * (-27) uncomputable so obviously unimplementable
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05:19:49 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137942&oldid=137939 * DGCK81LNN * (-7)
05:58:22 <esolangs> [[Fortran]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137943 * PkmnQ * (+106) Created page with "{{serious|URL=Fortran}} {{stub}} [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Before 1993]] [[Category:Implemented]]"
05:59:00 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137944&oldid=137938 * Unname4798 * (+60)
05:59:16 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137945&oldid=137944 * Unname4798 * (+8)
05:59:38 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137946&oldid=137945 * Unname4798 * (+1)
06:00:34 <esolangs> [[Category:2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137947&oldid=137946 * Unname4798 * (+10)
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07:06:24 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137948&oldid=137942 * DGCK81LNN * (+3193)
07:09:31 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137949&oldid=137948 * DGCK81LNN * (+0) /* Instructions */
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07:53:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 5cover * New user account
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08:01:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137950&oldid=137856 * 5cover * (+104) Introduced myself
08:13:10 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137951&oldid=137949 * DGCK81LNN * (+1993)
08:29:18 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137952&oldid=137951 * DGCK81LNN * (-128)
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08:41:07 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137953&oldid=137952 * DGCK81LNN * (+49)
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11:54:55 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unimplemented]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137954&oldid=137779 * Yayimhere * (+133)
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12:06:01 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unimplemented]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137955&oldid=137954 * Yayimhere * (+95)
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12:07:04 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137956&oldid=137835 * Yayimhere * (-1)
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12:37:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DueToTechnicalReasons * New user account
12:38:22 <wWwwW> im bored and i have no dieas fo a esolang
12:39:37 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137957&oldid=137956 * Yayimhere * (+0)
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13:04:03 <esolangs> [[Brainhook]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137958 * Yayimhere * (+583) Created page with "'''Brainhook''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] to minimize [[Brainfuck]] == memory == memory is a tape the continues to the right forever. the tape pointer moves right every command. each cell is 6 bit and wrap(so if 0 is decremented its set to 63) == com
13:04:18 <wWwwW> what do you mean sprout?
13:11:00 <sprout> you asked for ideas, I gave you one
13:19:03 <wWwwW> i don wanna steal somebodys else's idea
13:20:25 <wWwwW> but even if its already made i want it to be orgiginal
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13:30:39 <wWwwW> also if you said somethin
13:30:54 <wWwwW> so could you maybe resend sprout
13:35:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137959&oldid=137776 * PrySigneToFry * (+471)
13:43:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated JNTM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137960 * PrySigneToFry * (+510) Created page with "..."
13:46:00 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137961&oldid=134105 * PrySigneToFry * (-289)
13:49:36 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137962&oldid=136936 * PrySigneToFry * (+9)
13:50:17 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137963&oldid=137017 * PrySigneToFry * (+71)
14:02:56 <esolangs> [[CALC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137964&oldid=137937 * OllyBritton * (+367)
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14:09:51 <esolangs> [[ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0/NoQuine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137965 * PrySigneToFry * (+1109) Created page with "''ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0/NoQuine'' is designed by PSTF and based on [[ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0]] which is inspired by [[SyntaxError: invalid syntax]] which is inspired by [[foo : The term 'foo' is not recognized a
14:10:10 <esolangs> [[ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137966&oldid=133832 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
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14:13:28 <esolangs> [[ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0/NoQuine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137967&oldid=137965 * PrySigneToFry * (+239)
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14:17:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137968&oldid=137769 * PrySigneToFry * (+251) I see.(For the previous operation by AIS523)
14:21:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137969&oldid=137565 * PrySigneToFry * (+296)
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14:54:25 <wWwwW> can gte feedback on it?
14:58:28 <wWwwW> i can give the full idea
15:10:07 <wWwwW> if any of you want
15:13:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fortran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137970&oldid=137940 * Yayimhere * (+161)
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15:48:24 <korvo> wWwwW: What do you want to accomplish?
15:49:18 <wWwwW> a esolang where you do crafting like in meincraft be deifnin g what things craft to what
15:51:27 <korvo> Fun! It sounds like the main thing to build would be a book of recipes.
15:51:53 <wWwwW> but what if you could modify it?
15:51:58 <wWwwW> like stirng rewriting
15:52:03 <wWwwW> but as minecraft crafting
15:52:53 <wWwwW> im makign am md doc of the book
15:52:59 <wWwwW> i would like help:)
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16:06:25 <wWwwW> ill send a link to the page korvo then you can check it out
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16:18:10 <wWwwW> did somebody say somethin to me?
16:18:20 <wWwwW> and wanted to know
16:23:05 <wWwwW> curent progress korvo: https://hackmd.io/@idkleftoutsidekkk/ryM0QbI3C
16:34:29 <ais523> wWwwW: there were no messages while you were connected
16:34:50 <ais523> you can see all the messages in the log, e.g. today's is https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09-04.html
16:35:03 <ais523> lots of people here look at the log in order to reply to comments made while they weren't here
16:37:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Fortran]]": no content, has never had useful content don't create useless pages just to turn blue links red, it's possible that the link should be unlinked, but even when it shouldn't be, you should leave page creation to someone who has something to say
16:37:21 <fowl> my new programming language will have first-class telemetry. still working out the details
16:38:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fortran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137971&oldid=137970 * Ais523 * (+334) page was created empty, and I have deleted it
16:39:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:2027]]": it doesn't make sense to create future year categories early if doing so is simply going to inspire edit wars
16:40:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Category:2026 [create=sysop] (expires 16:40, 4 September 2025 (UTC))]]": protect future year categories until closer to the date, they tend to inspire useless pages and/or edit wars
16:40:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Category:2027 [create=sysop] (expires 16:40, 4 September 2026 (UTC))]]": protect future year categories until closer to the date, they tend to inspire useless pages and/or edit wars
16:41:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Category:2028 [create=sysop] (expires 16:41, 4 September 2027 (UTC))]]": protect future year categories until closer to the date, they tend to inspire useless pages and/or edit wars
16:41:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Category:2029 [create=sysop] (expires 16:41, 4 September 2028 (UTC))]]": protect future year categories until closer to the date, they tend to inspire useless pages and/or edit wars
16:42:09 <ais523> fowl: in the sense that you can use telemetry as the argument and/or return value of a function?
16:42:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Category:2030 [create=sysop] (expires 16:42, 4 September 2029 (UTC))]]": protect future year categories until closer to the date, they tend to inspire useless pages and/or edit wars
16:43:41 <ais523> it's kind-of mindboggling to imagine telemetry *not* being a special case, given that it seems to be a different kind of thing that the values and types that programs normally work with
16:50:12 <ais523> (I'm not saying that this is a bad idea – just that I'm interested to see how you'll accomplish it)
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16:56:49 <korvo> wWwwW: I'm getting a 403, sorry.
16:57:30 <korvo> I happen to be one of the Minecraft reverse engineers. I can tell you that the MC protocol supports a fairly flexible extension of crafting behaviors; it's not hard-coded.
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16:58:04 <korvo> The protocol lets a server tell a client to open up a modal box. There's hardcoded modals for crafting, furnaces, etc. but also freeform chest-like modals.
16:59:04 <korvo> The client and server can move objects around in the modal, and each movement (each mouse click, each drag-n-drop, etc.) sends an event from client to server. Also the server can force-change anything about the modal, like moving objects on their own.
17:00:03 <korvo> One of my early experiments was a sort of combination lock. The client attempts to open a chest/door. The server sends them a mostly-empty modal containing e.g. six colored wool blocks.
17:00:26 <korvo> The client has to drag them into the right locations on the modal, upon which the server instantly closes the modal and opens the door or spawns the chest modal.
17:00:34 <korvo> (If you've played Riven...)
17:01:04 <korvo> wWwwW: Anyway, it sounds like you're hard at work. When you're ready to share stuff publically, let me know and I'll have a look.
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17:14:14 <wWwwW> ill try to fix the 403
17:15:04 <wWwwW> https://hackmd.io/@idkleftoutsidekkk/ryM0QbI3C
17:16:36 <int-e> . o O ( window.GOOGLE_DRIVE_API_KEY = 'AIzaSyAHmcP5gL_64ZafuAYOvJruFAIaYgHQaY4' )
17:18:26 <int-e> just looking at the source code of that blank page :-P
17:19:10 <int-e> It might be less blank if I enabled Javascript. I don't know.
17:21:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fortran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137972&oldid=137971 * Yayimhere * (+175)
17:22:35 <int-e> It's hopefully a read-only API key. :-P
17:23:08 <wWwwW> i will make google doc
17:23:14 <wWwwW> since nobody can see it lol
17:23:15 <int-e> don't worry about it
17:24:02 <int-e> I have Javascript disabled by default. A lot of stuff doesn't work without Javascript. It makes me sad but... oh well.
17:24:35 <wWwwW> its just also korvok cant see it
17:25:09 <int-e> I can say that it's no longer s 403.
17:26:08 <ais523> int-e: I use two browsers, one with JS disabled, one with JS enabled but which wipes localstorage and cookies regularly
17:26:43 <ais523> and use the JS-disabled one for most browsing (I do enable JS on it on a case-by-case basis for websites which don't abuse it, like Wikipedia and Esolang)
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17:27:34 <ais523> then I have a third browser for testing that websites render correctly cross-browser, and a fourth browser for use in the terminal
17:28:04 <ais523> plus at least two browsers that I don't regularly use for anything (one of which is IE6, which I think I used once to test that a website would work in it)
17:28:11 <wWwwW> thats a lot of brwser
17:28:22 <wWwwW> ok thats enough browsers i think
17:28:50 <ais523> three browsers I don't regularly use for anything, I forgot I had Konqueror installed
17:29:13 <ais523> I do have a lot of browsers, I think I use even more text editors than that though
17:33:43 <fizzie> At least when it comes to the Google Drive API, I rather think API keys are entirely orthogonal to read-onlyness/read-writedness. Whether you can read or modify things depends on the relevant end-user credentials, usually through OAuth.
17:34:22 <wWwwW> im to stupid to understand that
17:34:26 <wWwwW> so immma ignore it ig
17:35:18 <fizzie> int-e: Looking at the feature list of the website, I'm guessing that's there to enable a "save to Drive" / "import from Drive" feature.
17:36:01 <b_jonas> can you recommend an x11 volume control program for my debian desktop? ideally one that I can just install to debian 11 from a native package and then keep when I upgrade to debian 12 (or 13 if I'm too lazy). I don't have any special needs, but currently I'm using qasmixer and that keeps crashing, so I'd just like something that doesn't crash so often.
17:37:34 <fizzie> Before PulseAudio/PipeWire, I used to just use that TUI thing, what's it called, `alsamixer`, with a thing that opened a new terminal for it.
17:38:04 <fizzie> If you glue a text-mode program to a terminal emulator, it counts as an X11 program.
17:38:22 <int-e> fizzie: There's a GOOGLE_DRIVE_CLIENT_ID as well. API credentials just are something that I don't really expect to see in client side JS code. But they may be fine. It's really more of a surprise than something I'll actually worry about.
17:40:01 <b_jonas> for browser, I primarily use firefox, the debian-modified version on my home machine and stock firefox on my Windows work machine. I have sometimes used extra Firefox profiles for a few things: I had one that uses the library's proxy to access parts of some paywalled publishing sites, I don't have the library subscription now but I'm not nuking it because I may use the same one in the future when I
17:41:34 <b_jonas> Long ago during my previous job I used to have a separate profile just to separate an in-house developped website to a separate process because it sometimes just consumed all resources and froze firefox. These days firefox has better built-in separation so that might not be necessary, though I still sometimes meet cases when the whole Firefox process hangs.
17:42:10 <fizzie> The "client ID" (in that context, anyway) is an OAuth2 concept, where it indicates the "client" (i.e., a specific website), for things like the auth/consent flow, so that it can show the correct details in the "do you want to let Frobnozz access your account" dialog.
17:42:24 <fizzie> Or something along those lines, I find modern webdev real hard to follow.
17:42:26 <b_jonas> I occasionally use Chrome or (at work only) IE to test if a website is only broken on Firefox or only with my Firefox plugins or it's just broken regardless of browser.
17:45:03 <fizzie> These days I just use Chrome, because, well, you know. With separate profiles for banking stuff and normal web browsing, for what little good that probably does. And then once in a blue moon re-check a website in Firefox to see if it's only broken on Chrome, but that seems to happen a lot less often than the other way around.
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17:45:51 <ais523> b_jonas: IE, not Edge?
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17:46:44 <b_jonas> ais523: uh yeah, it's probably actually Edge these days. I never specifically installed IE or Edge, it only comes up when I'm trying something from a machine other than my work laptop and it doesn't yet have firefox or chrome installed
17:47:47 <b_jonas> it's getting quite rare these days, we just have chromium installed even on production windows machines that aren't even supposed to run a browser during production
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18:05:22 <korvo> wwwww: I wonder whether this could be implemented as a Thue program or similar. The idea is that a general-purpose string-rewriter, if we feed it a special interpreter program, becomes a customized string-rewriter for your language and application.
18:05:54 <korvo> So you'd feed in your special interpreter, followed by your list of crafting recipes, and finally the user-level crafting program.
18:37:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137973&oldid=137959 * Ractangle * (+185) /* test topic */
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19:39:09 <esolangs> [[Conedy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137974&oldid=131963 * Ais523 * (+8) /* Computational class */ deitalicise parentheses
19:54:20 <esolangs> [[Brainhook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137975&oldid=137958 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Categories
19:54:38 <esolangs> [[Brainhook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137976&oldid=137975 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Categories
19:56:38 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137977&oldid=137953 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Categories
19:56:55 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137978&oldid=137977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* External resources */ Fix typo
19:59:42 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137979&oldid=136775 * Ractangle * (+60) /* Commands */
20:02:07 <esolangs> [[Varnand]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137980&oldid=64536 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
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20:07:46 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137981&oldid=137979 * Ractangle * (+134) /* Examples */
20:10:34 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137982&oldid=137981 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Truth-machine */
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20:24:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137983&oldid=137968 * Tommyaweosme * (+321)
20:43:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Netfri * New user account
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22:31:51 <zzo38> If you call a triangle a dodecagon, is it equilateral?
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22:49:10 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137984&oldid=137511 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* Hello, World! */
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22:56:08 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137985&oldid=137984 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+63)
22:59:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nopfunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137986 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) Created page with "in[[finite-state automaton]]"
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00:06:43 <esolangs> [[Bit~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137987&oldid=83006 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
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00:27:16 <zzo38> I think that you should still continue to make up the standard organization. I also think that there can be the classification of e.g. programming languages, mathematics, character sets, file formats, electrical wiring, protocols, documents which are made as jokes, etc. I also think that a discussion can be made up, perhaps with IRC and NNTP. Furthermore, make it fully public domain.
00:27:44 <zzo38> Many people in this IRC can be included, but also possibly some other people such as Knuth and Tom7.
00:28:35 <zzo38> Furthermore: "The sad fact of the matter is that people play politics with standards to gain commercial advantage, and the result is that end users suffer the consequences. This is the case with character encoding for computer systems, and it is even more the case with HDTV." Therefore, these standards should be made to mitigate this things, by making different standards for character codes and televisions.
01:25:27 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137988 * Tommyaweosme * (+360) Created page with "NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine is a derivative of NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a
01:34:09 <esolangs> [[Braincraft]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137989 * Tommyaweosme * (+1203) Created page with "{{lowercase}}braincraft is brainfuck but updates happen like minecraft. == updates == === 1.0 - barebones === the additions for 1.0 are: + increments the cell under pointer by 1 - decrements the cell under pointer by 1 x squares the cell under pointer [ jump
01:37:55 <esolangs> [[Braincraft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137990&oldid=137989 * Tommyaweosme * (+655)
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05:51:12 <esolangs> [[Turmin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137991&oldid=136878 * Ttulka * (+568) add Extensions
06:55:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fortran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137992&oldid=137972 * PkmnQ * (+163)
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09:58:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Faustify * New user account
10:03:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137993&oldid=137950 * Faustify * (+222) /* Introductions */
10:36:47 <esolangs> [[Blues++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=137994 * Faustify * (+1299) Created Blues++
10:37:17 <esolangs> [[Blues++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137995&oldid=137994 * Faustify * (-45) Removed incorrect link
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11:40:25 <esolangs> [[Polytran]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137996&oldid=60977 * None1 * (-8)
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12:16:11 <wWwwW> hey korvo idk if u here but ill resend the link: https://hackmd.io/@idkleftoutsidekkk/ryM0QbI3C
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12:47:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137997&oldid=137389 * Yayimhere * (+3)
12:47:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137998&oldid=137997 * Yayimhere * (+1)
13:11:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=137999&oldid=137983 * PrySigneToFry * (+868)
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13:16:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138000&oldid=133850 * PrySigneToFry * (+582) /* Multiplication, Division and Modulo */ new section
13:16:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138001&oldid=138000 * PrySigneToFry * (-1)
13:18:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138002&oldid=138001 * PrySigneToFry * (-4)
13:23:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138003&oldid=137826 * PrySigneToFry * (+767) /* A suggestion for Translated Shakespeare */ new section
13:23:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138004&oldid=137999 * None1 * (+529) /* inbox */
13:25:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138005&oldid=138004 * None1 * (+34) /* inbox */
13:27:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138006&oldid=138003 * None1 * (+204) /* A suggestion for Translated Shakespeare */
13:28:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138007&oldid=138005 * PrySigneToFry * (+691)
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13:36:13 <esolangs> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138008&oldid=126057 * None1 * (+26) Pseudonatural category
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13:45:26 <esolangs> [[Translated Drive-In Window]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138009 * None1 * (+1619) Created page with "'''Translated Drive-In Window''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is [[Drive-In Window]] but horribly translated. 1. Program <pre> Hi, welcome to Spill_The_Beans. Here is a menu. Vodka: $50 Here are your sides. Truth Serum: $2 May I tak
13:45:40 <esolangs> [[Windows]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138010 * PrySigneToFry * (+1281) Created page with "'''Windows''' or ''''''(aka '''swodniW''') is an esolang inspierd by [['xxx' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.|dmc]], [[bash: foo: No such file or directory|hasB]], foo : The term 'foo' is not recognized as the n
13:46:59 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138011&oldid=137896 * PrySigneToFry * (+156)
13:47:12 <wWwwW> aaaa i cant stop thinking about a consistency checking esolang. i have some ideas tho...
13:47:29 <wWwwW> also if i make it ill make the syntax uiua style syntax
13:47:55 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138012&oldid=138011 * None1 * (+86) /* Horribly translated variants */
13:49:08 <esolangs> [[Translated Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138013&oldid=138009 * None1 * (+21)
13:50:30 <esolangs> [[Windows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138014&oldid=138010 * PrySigneToFry * (+65)
13:51:49 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138015&oldid=137897 * None1 * (+86)
13:52:39 <esolangs> [[Windows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138016&oldid=138014 * PrySigneToFry * (-1)
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13:58:13 <esolangs> [[Translated Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138017&oldid=138013 * None1 * (-39)
14:30:30 <esolangs> [[Blues++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138018&oldid=137995 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) Stub, Wikipedia links, categories
14:32:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:33:25 <esolangs> [[Braincraft]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138019&oldid=137990 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+139) Categories
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16:19:44 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138020&oldid=135460 * HammyHammerhead * (+636) ADDED LOTS OF COMMANDS
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16:44:33 <wWwwW> where there a log of today?
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17:03:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138021&oldid=138007 * Unname4798 * (-2694) remove non-English texts
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17:10:10 <esolangs> [[Poetic.BCT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138022 * Unname4798 * (+388) Created page with "Poetic.BCT is a language made by Unname4798 and a member of the [[Poetic]] family. == Commands == This language encodes the word length mod 2 as commands. Alphabetic characters are in the word, other characters act as delimiters. All commands are the same as in [[
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17:13:06 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138023&oldid=137450 * Unname4798 * (+34)
17:13:34 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138024&oldid=138023 * Unname4798 * (+35)
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17:32:10 <esolangs> [[Wiki/pedia/.org]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138025 * Yayimhere * (+522) Created page with "'''Wiki/pedia/.org'''(pronounced '''Wikipedia dot org''') is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] based on the [[Wikipedia:Getting to Philosophy|Philosophy Game]] == semantics / syntax == the program structure: / wikipedia page name(in 19.30, 5. september 2
17:32:30 <wWwwW> ^^what do you think of dis esolang?
17:34:53 <esolangs> [[Wiki/pedia/.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138026&oldid=138025 * Yayimhere * (+40)
17:35:02 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138027&oldid=137831 * Yayimhere * (+22)
17:35:09 <esolangs> [[Wiki/pedia/.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138028&oldid=138026 * Yayimhere * (-30)
17:44:57 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138029&oldid=137982 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Truth-machine */
17:47:34 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138030&oldid=138029 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Commands */
17:51:46 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138031&oldid=137505 * Ractangle * (+147) /* Karma */
17:53:58 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138032&oldid=138030 * Ractangle * (+44) /* Commands */
17:54:59 <esolangs> [[Wiki/pedia/.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138033&oldid=138028 * Yayimhere * (+52)
17:56:16 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138034&oldid=138032 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
17:58:19 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138035&oldid=138031 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Kava */
17:59:26 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138036&oldid=138034 * Ractangle * (+54) /* Commands */
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18:27:23 <esolangs> [[Collabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138037&oldid=138020 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Examples */ Category
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19:56:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138038&oldid=137598 * Ractangle * (+178)
19:58:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Undelta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138039&oldid=138038 * Ractangle * (+0)
19:58:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Undelta]] to [[]] over redirect
19:58:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:Undelta]] to [[Talk:]]
19:58:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Undelta]]"
19:58:35 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138044&oldid=138040 * Ractangle * (-47)
20:00:44 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138045&oldid=138044 * Ractangle * (+57)
20:01:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138046&oldid=138042 * Ractangle * (+47)
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20:19:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138047&oldid=138021 * Tommyaweosme * (+2694) stop pls
20:22:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138048&oldid=138047 * Tommyaweosme * (+263)
20:22:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138049&oldid=138048 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
20:25:26 <esolangs> [[Spaghetti]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138050&oldid=65416 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Wayback
20:53:38 <esolangs> [[Cat (Language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138051&oldid=131295 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Categories
20:54:13 <esolangs> [[Cat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138052&oldid=131298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) Reword
20:58:38 <esolangs> [[Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138053&oldid=138052 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-82) Hundreds of pages link to Cat instead of Cat program, so a redirect makes more sense
20:58:53 <esolangs> [[Cat program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138054&oldid=113902 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) Distinguish confusion
21:00:41 <esolangs> [[Cat (Language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138055&oldid=138051 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Distinguish confusion
21:01:22 <esolangs> [[Cat Program (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138056&oldid=134838 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) Distinguish confusion
21:08:45 <esolangs> [[Braincraft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138057&oldid=138019 * Tommyaweosme * (+1878)
21:10:08 <esolangs> [[Braincraft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138058&oldid=138057 * Tommyaweosme * (+48) /* 1.0-current */
21:11:34 <esolangs> [[Braincraft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138059&oldid=138058 * Tommyaweosme * (+22) /* number */
21:11:46 <esolangs> [[Braincraft]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138060&oldid=138059 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) /* 1.4 */
21:15:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fortran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138061&oldid=137992 * Tommyaweosme * (+170)
21:17:32 <esolangs> [[Wiki/pedia/.org]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138062&oldid=138033 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
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01:55:55 <esolangs> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138063&oldid=81117 * DGCK81LNN * (+23340)
01:58:53 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138064&oldid=136870 * DGCK81LNN * (-489) /* Interpreter */
02:00:53 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138065&oldid=138064 * DGCK81LNN * (+74) /* (Nope.) Interpreter */
02:13:11 <esolangs> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138066&oldid=138063 * DGCK81LNN * (-6) /* RBF*ck */
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02:54:24 <korvo> I'm about to add the URL https://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Cat to a page. fizzie, would you please consider adding this to the interwiki list? I figure that they are potential friends, and I know some of them are alright folks.
02:55:26 <ais523> I'm not sure how much we even use the interwiki list – there are a few uses of wikipedia: but I think consensus is for the prefix to be visible
02:57:49 <ais523> the external link might be more useful even if the internal link is added to the list? it isn't obvious to me that "concatenative:Cat" (internal link) is more useful than "Cat at concatenative.org" (external link) for readers
02:57:53 <korvo> I dimly remember fizzie adding something for me, likely the Lojban wiki. I just thought it'd be a neighborly thing, that's all.
02:58:26 <ais523> I have no objections to it being on the list, just don't think the change would do anything
02:59:04 <ais523> (also, what is that wiki's name? it has a URL but doesn't appear to have a visible name anywhere, e.g. the homepage title is "Front Page")
02:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138067&oldid=136047 * TheCanon2 * (+12)
02:59:31 <ais523> (also, I wonder whether I should add Underload)
02:59:41 <esolangs> [[Cat (Language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138068&oldid=138055 * Corbin * (+109) Link to the other Cat. No opinion on how our top-level namespace should accommodate its existence.
03:00:24 <korvo> I think it's called "the concatenative languages wiki". I guess I should start idling in their channel again.
03:02:12 <ais523> cat(1) can also be interpreted as a programming language (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Text)
03:02:27 <ais523> so that's three languages which could plausibly be called "cat"
03:02:44 * ais523 vaguely wonders how many plausible extensions you need to add to cat(1) to make it Turing-complete
03:04:06 <ais523> I did once find a denial-of-service bug in xterm where you could cat a particular sequence of bytes into the terminal and it would enter an infinite loop – does that make Text non-total? (I reported it, and it's been fixed for ages)
03:09:38 <korvo> I've asked in #concatenative. Once I get a response, I'll edit that page and I suppose add see-alsos for a few overlapping langs too.
03:12:40 <ais523> now I am wondering whether Jelly is concatenative (assuming you ignore the rules for disambiguating ambiguous syntax, which take the entire line into account)
03:13:04 <ais523> it makes me think that there's a continuous range between fully concatenative and fully applicative, and Jelly is on the "mostly concatenative" location
03:15:07 <ais523> I guess the thing that makes it not fully concatenative is that if a function has two arguments, you can't split the function from its adjacent argument, but you can split the function-argument pair from everything else
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03:21:42 <esolangs> [[Cat (Language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138069&oldid=138068 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) :
03:27:59 <korvo> The way I think of it is that a language is generalized-concatenative if it's got a syntactic monoid, and the classical definition is when the monoid has "" as unit.
03:29:53 <korvo> Or " " for some of them. Or maybe "\n" for sanity. And etc. It's become looser over time, but ISTR that something Cammy-shaped wouldn't ever fly because bracketing is an unacceptable complexity.
03:30:21 <ais523> Jelly does have that (if you allow for its idiosyncratic way of showing precedence) but you can't split just anywhere
03:31:21 <ais523> and in particular it doesn't seem to have or simulate a stack
03:31:48 <ais523> (except for the call stack)
03:39:29 <korvo> Oh, yeah. Most concatenative languages don't allow splitting; that's something else entirely. Like, Forth doesn't allow splitting because of the interpreter/compiler modes.
03:39:37 <korvo> To say nothing of ." quotation "
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05:08:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rhythm game statistics * New user account
05:11:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138070&oldid=137993 * Rhythm game statistics * (+175)
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07:55:04 <esolangs> [[WISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138071&oldid=122878 * Ractangle * (+5) the image is too big
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09:00:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138072&oldid=138045 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Syntax */
09:01:04 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138073&oldid=138072 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Syntax */
09:04:27 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138074&oldid=137381 * Ractangle * (+170) /* examples */
09:13:02 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138075&oldid=138074 * Ractangle * (+104) /* syntax */
09:15:53 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138076&oldid=138075 * Ractangle * (-7) /* syntax */
09:18:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138077&oldid=138027 * Ractangle * (+16)
09:19:36 <fizzie> I'll just enable the Interwiki extension, that'll allow any sysop to edit the list + I don't have to run raw SQL insert statements. Looks like it comes bundled in the standard distribution nowadays.
09:19:53 <fizzie> (Sometime later today, currently at the dentist.)
09:20:43 <esolangs> [[User:DGCK81LNN/vector-2022.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138078 * DGCK81LNN * (+100) Created page with "$( "meta[name=viewport]" ).attr( "content", "width=device-width, initial-scale=1, minimum-scale=1" )"
09:21:37 <fizzie> You know how people always refer to things disparagingly as "Big X", like there's Big Oil and Big Pharma and so on? I wonder if there's a group of people who believe a cabal of dentists is manipulating people, would that get called Big Tooth?
09:23:11 <fizzie> Anthropogenic teeth decay is just a lie from Big Tooth.
09:24:57 <esolangs> [[Poetic.BCT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138079&oldid=138022 * None1 * (-20)
09:25:15 <esolangs> [[User:DGCK81LNN/common.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138080 * DGCK81LNN * (+27) Created page with "pre { overflow-x: auto; }"
09:28:06 <esolangs> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138081&oldid=138066 * DGCK81LNN * (-11003) fix wrong version of jvavscript brainfuck interpreter code
09:30:49 <esolangs> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138082&oldid=138081 * DGCK81LNN * (+38) /* JvavScript */
09:33:51 <esolangs> [[Caca]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138083&oldid=129403 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Trivia */
09:42:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138084&oldid=138049 * None1 * (+455)
10:00:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[Poetic]] to [[Poetic (family)]]
10:00:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[Poetic (family)]] to [[Poetic (esolang)]]
10:01:52 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138089&oldid=138088 * Unname4798 * (-30) Blanked the page
10:03:06 <esolangs> [[Poetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138090&oldid=138086 * Unname4798 * (+77) Removed redirect to [[Poetic (family)]]
10:05:06 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138091&oldid=138089 * Unname4798 * (+169)
10:05:37 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138092&oldid=138091 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:06:00 <esolangs> [[Poetic.BCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138093&oldid=138079 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:06:15 <esolangs> [[Poetic.BCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138094&oldid=138093 * Unname4798 * (+16)
10:06:54 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138095&oldid=138092 * Unname4798 * (+64)
10:07:01 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138096&oldid=138095 * Unname4798 * (+1)
10:07:11 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138097&oldid=138096 * Unname4798 * (+1)
10:07:35 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138098&oldid=138097 * Unname4798 * (+17)
10:08:02 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138099&oldid=138098 * Unname4798 * (+29)
10:08:15 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138100&oldid=138099 * Unname4798 * (+3)
10:08:55 <esolangs> [[Poetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138101&oldid=138090 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:09:04 <esolangs> [[Poetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138102&oldid=138101 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:09:13 <esolangs> [[Poetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138103&oldid=138102 * Unname4798 * (+1)
10:13:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138104&oldid=138084 * Unname4798 * (-3412) None1 was right
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10:34:07 <wib_jonas> fizzie: https://www.xkcd.com/2130/
10:52:46 <esolangs> [[Empty Program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138105&oldid=136457 * Ractangle * (+10)
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10:59:42 <vms14> here is where the weirdest ideas come true
11:00:11 <esolangs> [[Comments]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138106 * Ractangle * (+184) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Comments''' are a part of a programme to explain something either a part of code or something else This page is going to talk about on how do you make comments in esolangs"
11:09:43 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138107&oldid=138106 * None1 * (+447)
11:11:43 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138108&oldid=138107 * None1 * (+256)
11:11:56 <esolangs> [[Comments]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138109&oldid=138108 * None1 * (+1) /* Languages with halting instructions */
11:12:19 <esolangs> [[Comments]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138110&oldid=138109 * None1 * (+23) /* Languages with halting instructions */
11:12:36 <esolangs> [[Comments]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138111&oldid=138110 * None1 * (+30) /* Languages with halting instructions */
11:13:30 <esolangs> [[Comments]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138112&oldid=138111 * None1 * (+0)
11:30:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * UrnEn * New user account
11:37:19 <esolangs> [[Never Gonna Give You Up]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138113&oldid=128882 * None1 * (+156) /* External resources */
11:44:36 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138114&oldid=137639 * PrySigneToFry * (+34)
11:46:10 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138115&oldid=138114 * PrySigneToFry * (-10)
11:47:04 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138116&oldid=138112 * Ractangle * (-77)
11:53:25 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138117&oldid=138116 * Ractangle * (+127) /* Befunge */
11:55:19 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138118&oldid=138117 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Python */
11:58:49 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138119&oldid=138118 * Ractangle * (-2)
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12:16:27 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138120&oldid=137251 * GUAqwq * (+14)
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12:46:28 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138121&oldid=138119 * Ractangle * (+20)
12:48:07 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138122&oldid=138121 * Ractangle * (+19)
12:51:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138123&oldid=115903 * Ractangle * (+12)
12:56:55 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138124&oldid=135855 * Ractangle * (-113) /* Python interpreters */
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13:14:38 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138125&oldid=138035 * Yayimhere * (+5) /* ZOMBIE */ added link
13:16:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138126&oldid=136272 * Yayimhere * (+30) /* turth machine */
13:19:05 <esolangs> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138127&oldid=54543 * Yayimhere * (+22) /* Truth-machine */ its not the shortest truth machine)
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14:03:16 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq/TCproof to Lambda calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138128 * GUAqwq * (+2557) Created page with "One of my friend doubted whether ''lambda-calculus'' is ''Turing complete''.So I proved it. Here's my solution: == Recursion == Y := \f.(\x.f(x x))(\x.f(x x)) =><code>Y f = f(Y f)</code> == Boolean == True := \x y.x False := \x y.y N
14:04:05 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138129&oldid=138120 * GUAqwq * (+70) /* Articles */
14:11:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138130&oldid=138070 * UrnEn * (+154) /* Introductions */
14:14:23 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq/TCproof to Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138131&oldid=138128 * Yayimhere * (+41) added the lambdas
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14:32:10 <esolangs> [[Poetic (family)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138132&oldid=138100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) Convert to list
14:32:35 <esolangs> [[Poetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138133&oldid=138103 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) Convert to list
14:39:17 <esolangs> [[Poetic.BCT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138134&oldid=138094 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+211) Converter, category
14:52:17 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138135&oldid=137760 * Ractangle * (-90)
14:52:34 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138136&oldid=138135 * Ractangle * (-110) /* Cheating quine */
15:01:20 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138137&oldid=138122 * Ractangle * (+253) /* Python */
15:07:03 <esolangs> [[Windows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138138&oldid=138016 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
15:10:22 <esolangs> [[Try]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138139 * Yourusername * (+180) Created page with "Try is a esolang where you write esolang specs to code == Commands == [name] is a esolang where you [val] : set name to value <nowiki>== [Topic] ==</nowiki> : define a proceedure"
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15:18:53 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138140 * PrySigneToFry * (+762) Created page with "ORK: Are you going crazy? {{PSTF's Version|PSTF Origin|[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again2]]}} 1. "PrOgRaM" <pre> their legs difficulty difficulty difficulty "Room" is a joke. Sadiraki Sara Sarachio's Luvanou It's a bit confusing. Orbis Repanos Pasciu
15:20:02 <wWwwW> i have a question to all of you. is the infinite loop a looping counter?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bijection
15:20:44 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138141&oldid=137772 * PrySigneToFry * (+74)
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15:27:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138142&oldid=137821 * PrySigneToFry * (+329)
15:28:17 <ais523> wWwwW: I don't see how the "infinite loop" example is actually a loop – doesn't it become "{{}0}0" but with the instruction pointer at the end of the command?
15:28:47 <wWwwW> i need to specify that it runs whats inside
15:29:02 <ais523> ah, that makes more sense
15:29:06 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138143&oldid=136694 * Yayimhere * (+31)
15:29:10 <esolangs> [[Comments]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138144&oldid=138137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+496) Copyediting, category
15:29:19 <ais523> so {}n appends a copy of line n to what's inside the brackets, and then runs what's inside the brackets
15:29:49 <esolangs> [[Comments]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138145&oldid=138144 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-254) /* CLFCE */ Remove duplicate section
15:30:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138146&oldid=138142 * PrySigneToFry * (+442)
15:30:43 <wWwwW> so it would be a looping counter right?
15:31:07 <ais523> I'm trying to work out how to get the exact triangle shape that's required
15:31:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138147&oldid=138146 * PrySigneToFry * (+31)
15:31:34 <ais523> the {}0 program isn't a looping counter because it grows exponentially, not triangularly
15:31:57 <wWwwW> doesnt it still proove it has more power than a LBA?
15:32:34 <ais523> it probably does, but it doesn't prove it because it doesn't prove there's a way to actually read the data that's being stored
15:33:01 <wWwwW> but if it has to read data as a rule then. it would right?
15:33:07 <ais523> and in this sort of language, finding a way to read data is often harder to find a way to write it
15:33:55 <ais523> I would encourage you to leave the language the same, it's interesting as it is – or maybe change "append" to "prepend", that might be necessary to make control flow possible
15:34:18 <ais523> imagine a program like {{}0}1 \n x
15:34:19 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138148&oldid=138143 * Yayimhere * (+1)
15:34:49 <wWwwW> my brain is proccesing that
15:35:57 <ais523> oh, I just realised this language doesn't have any sort of goto, so the only line that actually changes is the first one (until it finishes running), meaning that any TCness has to come from just a single line
15:36:11 <ais523> which might well be possible but it reduces the chance a bit
15:36:26 <wWwwW> unless you do concurrency
15:36:34 <wWwwW> or only run the first line then the second so on
15:36:39 <wWwwW> then reruns until it halts
15:38:28 <ais523> hmm, an implicit loop is also possible
15:38:49 <ais523> no, I mean, what you were talking about is an implicit loop
15:38:54 <ais523> where the program starts again after reaching the end
15:39:52 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138149&oldid=138148 * Yayimhere * (+126)
15:40:33 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/TEST3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138150 * PrySigneToFry * (+1226) Created page with "[[User:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:blue;background:yellow;"></span>]][[User talk:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:aqua;background:red;"></span>]][[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:red;background:aqua;"></span>]][
15:41:13 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138151&oldid=136944 * PrySigneToFry * (+45)
15:45:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138152&oldid=137109 * PrySigneToFry * (+609) /* */ new section
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16:14:20 <wWwwW> i spesified some more
16:14:59 <ais523> I don't think "no changes happen" is even possible, is it?
16:15:21 <ais523> unless all the commands refer to blank lines, and if the program doesn't start in that state it can never reach that state
16:15:28 <wWwwW> what should i do to the halts
16:15:50 <ais523> I think, with a language like this, you should probably just resign yourself to it running indefinitely, and let people define their own halt state to prove TCness
16:16:09 <ais523> and when there is a proof that "it would be TC if behaviour X was treated as a halt", then you can add the halt to the language
16:17:27 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138153&oldid=138149 * Yayimhere * (-25)
16:19:34 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138154&oldid=138153 * Yayimhere * (+42) /* examples */
16:20:16 <wWwwW> now do you think a looping counter is possible?
16:21:27 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138155&oldid=138154 * Yayimhere * (+27)
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16:27:42 <ais523> wWwwW: yes, {}1 \n (print *) \n (print \n) would be a looping counter in that version of the language (apart from the first line), if it had a print statement
16:28:48 <wWwwW> wouldnt it just work anyway
16:31:01 <ais523> but having the print statements makes it easier to describe
16:31:32 <wWwwW> ig you would include it
16:31:42 <wWwwW> the prints are for clarity
16:34:55 <wWwwW> and if so should i give credit?
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16:40:27 <b_jonas> you can always define multiple variants of a language together on one page, like if you want the support for print statements optional.
16:55:07 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138156&oldid=137978 * DGCK81LNN * (+6578)
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17:17:51 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138157&oldid=138155 * Yayimhere * (+179)
17:18:21 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138158&oldid=138157 * Yayimhere * (+28) /* examples */
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17:20:28 <esolangs> [[Iframe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138159&oldid=119594 * PkmnQ * (+478) Less annoying syntax for when I implement this
17:27:53 -!- m5zs7k_ has changed nick to m5zs7k.
17:28:47 <esolangs> [[Nope]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138160&oldid=137037 * Yayimhere * (+1)
17:35:06 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138161&oldid=138156 * DGCK81LNN * (+1664)
17:37:32 <esolangs> [[Assembolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138162&oldid=137935 * Ractangle * (+175)
18:05:32 <esolangs> [[Ridewith]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138163 * Yayimhere * (+787) Created page with "'''Ridewith''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] for creating ascii art == memory == memory is a grid(infinite) with a pointer starting at <code>(0, 0)</code>. the places the pointer goes are drawn on == syntax == there is dis syntax: ''start direction'' (
18:06:28 <wWwwW> i made dat horrible thing^
18:07:49 <esolangs> [[Ridewith]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138164&oldid=138163 * Yayimhere * (+4)
18:11:24 <esolangs> [[Ridewith]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138165&oldid=138164 * Yayimhere * (+24)
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18:53:18 <esolangs> [[Enwokenment]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138166 * Hakerh400 * (+1678) +[[Enwokenment]]
18:53:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138167&oldid=137925 * Hakerh400 * (+18) +[[Enwokenment]]
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18:53:59 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138168&oldid=137204 * Hakerh400 * (+18) +[[Enwokenment]]
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19:28:03 <esolangs> [[Enwokenment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138169&oldid=138166 * Ais523 * (+985) explain why this is TC (it has the category already)
19:28:17 <esolangs> [[FRACTRAN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138170 * Ais523 * (+22) caps redirect
19:29:02 <ais523> wWwwW: I'm not sure I'm in the right frame of mind for looking at esolangs right now
19:33:02 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138171&oldid=138145 * Ractangle * (+73)
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19:35:52 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138172&oldid=137890 * Ractangle * (+20) /* Other things */
19:36:21 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138173&oldid=138172 * Ractangle * (-17) /* Other things */
19:38:20 <esolangs> [[Enwokenment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138174&oldid=138169 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Fix year
19:39:38 <esolangs> [[Ridewith]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138175&oldid=138165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
19:40:54 <esolangs> [[Try]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138176&oldid=138139 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
19:54:59 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138177&oldid=138158 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Categories
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20:18:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138178&oldid=138104 * Tommyaweosme * (+3595)
20:23:29 <esolangs> [[Opal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138179&oldid=137936 * Ractangle * (+72)
20:34:44 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138180&oldid=137011 * Ractangle * (-9)
20:36:33 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138181&oldid=136368 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Looping counter */
20:37:41 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138182&oldid=138181 * Ractangle * (+31)
20:41:16 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138183&oldid=138182 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Looping counter */
20:42:44 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138184&oldid=138183 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Infinite loop */
20:43:08 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138185&oldid=138184 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Infinite loop */
20:44:27 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138186&oldid=138185 * Ractangle * (+32) /* Truth-machine */
20:45:18 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138187&oldid=138186 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Looping counter */
20:46:36 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138188&oldid=138187 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Deadfish implementation */
20:46:56 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138189&oldid=138188 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Looping counter */
20:47:59 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138190&oldid=136830 * Ractangle * (+20) /* G# */
20:49:29 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138191&oldid=137862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1065) Interpreter, see also, categories
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23:03:22 <zzo38> Currently in a mahjong program I have: typedef struct { char*name; uint16_t value; } Name; it is used with tsearch. However, this requires two allocations and some extra space for the pointer, and it might be better to instead: typedef struct { uint16_t value; char name[0]; } Name;
23:05:23 <zzo38> The search key in this program will always be the same static buffer, so it could use some otherwise unused address to denote that, or to subtract sizeof(uint16_t) from the address of that buffer and somehow force the compiler to make that work (being valid if used in this way and not null).
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00:09:31 <esolangs> [[Comments]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138192&oldid=138171 * None1 * (+165) /* brainfuck */
00:10:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * None1 * moved [[Comments]] to [[Comment]]: Should be singular
00:10:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * None1 * moved [[Talk:Comments]] to [[Talk:Comment]]: Should be singular
00:11:34 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138197&oldid=138193 * None1 * (+55)
00:11:53 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138198&oldid=132457 * None1 * (+4) /* Header comment */
00:17:27 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138199&oldid=138197 * None1 * (+92)
00:20:45 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138200&oldid=137988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155) Link, categories
00:21:11 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138201&oldid=138200 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Category
00:22:16 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138202&oldid=137477 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+117) See also
00:56:40 <esolangs> [[+-)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138203&oldid=122375 * None1 * (+219)
01:06:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bfos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138204&oldid=113882 * None1 * (+311)
01:07:55 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138205&oldid=138202 * None1 * (+113) /* See also */
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01:31:09 <Sgeo> What CPUs have emulation modes? x86 architecture is infamous for that, 65816 has an emulation mode for 6502 (or some variation I think)
01:36:48 <esolangs> [[Trilangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138206&oldid=112452 * Bbrk24 * (-111) Trilangle can interpret Qdeql
01:40:25 <fizzie> The eZ80 has a "classic Z80" mode, I think. (Quite different from the native "ADL mode" in which the 16-bit register become 24-bit ones.)
01:44:29 <fizzie> Not sure if ARM's 32-bit execution state on AArch64 counts, maybe.
02:58:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Velato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138207&oldid=31126 * None1 * (+126) /* Music images */ new section
02:58:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Velato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138208&oldid=138207 * None1 * (+235) /* Music images */
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03:36:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138209&oldid=138152 * PrySigneToFry * (+106)
03:39:22 <esolangs> [[Template:OLoP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138210 * PrySigneToFry * (+105) Created page with ":''This page is written by the language {{{1}}}, and the version of language {{{2}}} is at [[{{{3}}}]].''"
03:39:45 <esolangs> [[Enwokenment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138211&oldid=138174 * Hakerh400 * (+6)
03:39:57 <esolangs> [[/English version]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138212&oldid=137758 * PrySigneToFry * (-19)
03:41:25 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138213&oldid=138115 * PrySigneToFry * (+77)
03:45:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138214&oldid=138147 * PrySigneToFry * (+79)
03:52:51 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare/PSTF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138215 * PrySigneToFry * (+4973) Created page with "1. Program <pre> The Infamous Hello World Program. Romeo, a young man with a remarkable patience. Juliet, a likewise young woman of remarkable grace. Ophelia, a remarkable woman much in dispute with Hamlet. Hamlet, the flatterer of Andersen In
03:54:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138216&oldid=138006 * PrySigneToFry * (+524)
03:55:31 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare/PSTF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138217&oldid=138215 * PrySigneToFry * (+8)
03:59:02 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/My Decimal Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138218 * PrySigneToFry * (+1091) Created page with "It calls "The PSTF constant" and its symbol is . 2.561765029376982639476905739572392398749348647654346788698569836928685656575656559200198249263159047584721586234075946897315867407907847846941795720456298375091247679407723064907438724
04:00:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138219&oldid=138214 * PrySigneToFry * (+114)
04:04:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138220&oldid=136579 * PrySigneToFry * (+588) /* Translate it even scarier if thouyou want. */ new section
04:19:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138221&oldid=137969 * YufangTSTSU * (+162) /* Any account on other platforms? */
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05:22:40 <esolangs> [[Why tho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138222&oldid=135934 * Yayimhere * (+63)
05:30:50 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138223&oldid=138177 * Yayimhere * (+122)
05:32:46 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138224&oldid=138223 * Yayimhere * (+105)
05:36:11 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unknown computational class]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138225 * Yayimhere * (+266) Created page with "i think this should have a sub category for things that have a high chance of being TC and must be at least close to it. like esolangs that has a [[Looping counter]] made in it ~~~~"
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06:20:16 <esolangs> [[Kicky BCT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138226 * Yayimhere * (+1532) Created page with "'''Kicky BCT''' is a [[Esolang]] by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its a modified version of a [[BCT]]. it comes from two things: a misunderstanding on the [[ResPlicate]] page, and the creators hate to the fact that the datastring is not represented in the program == what has
06:35:47 <esolangs> [[ResPlicate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138227&oldid=53514 * Yayimhere * (+24) /* Counting Up From Zero (in Unary) */
06:47:09 <esolangs> [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138228&oldid=92236 * Yayimhere * (-33) /* Examples */ Circute is on wiki
06:48:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Yayimhere * uploaded "[[File:Kicky BCT logo.jpg]]"
06:49:18 <esolangs> [[Kicky BCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138230&oldid=138226 * Yayimhere * (+66)
06:50:01 <wWwwW> ^^hate of humanity confirmed^^
06:56:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138231&oldid=138209 * Yayimhere * (+124) /* bring back the old sandbox war */
07:04:41 <esolangs> [[FizzLang Unbounded]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138232 * Yayimhere * (+320) Created page with "'''FizzLang Unbounded''' is a simple variant of [[FizzLang]]. the original esolang was created by [[User:Mihai Popa]] and this variant is by [[User:Yayimhere]] == the change(yea there's only one) == now the: 1 -> 100 would not be there. there would just be
07:05:21 <esolangs> [[FizzLang Unbounded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138233&oldid=138232 * Yayimhere * (-2)
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07:28:39 <esolangs> [[BFX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138234&oldid=18220 * Ractangle * (-69)
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07:45:38 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138235&oldid=138077 * Ractangle * (+25)
07:51:58 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138236&oldid=138235 * Ractangle * (+16)
07:54:55 <esolangs> [[Kicky BCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138237&oldid=138230 * Yayimhere * (-844)
07:55:47 <wWwwW> i have a qeustion. souldnt a looping counter starting at ** isntead of * proove the same things right?
08:02:51 <esolangs> [[Kicky BCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138238&oldid=138237 * Yayimhere * (+161)
08:05:11 <esolangs> [[Kicky BCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138239&oldid=138238 * Yayimhere * (-36) /* random examples */
08:05:56 <esolangs> [[Kicky BCT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138240&oldid=138239 * Yayimhere * (-16) /* what has changed? */
08:21:23 <esolangs> [[Chance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138241&oldid=78318 * Yayimhere * (-5) needs to show the User part in user page link
08:22:14 <esolangs> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138242&oldid=135327 * Yayimhere * (-5) needs to show the User part in user page link
08:42:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138243&oldid=138221 * PrySigneToFry * (+712)
08:43:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138244&oldid=138243 * PrySigneToFry * (+0) Change the time post
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08:48:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138245 * PrySigneToFry * (+651) /* About IDE for "" */ new section
08:52:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hello, world!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138246 * PrySigneToFry * (+66) Created page with "One world, one line of code. Welcome to the temple of programming."
08:59:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138247&oldid=138216 * PrySigneToFry * (+34)
09:00:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138248&oldid=138220 * PrySigneToFry * (+24)
09:00:39 <esolangs> [[Translated Zhongwen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138249 * PrySigneToFry * (+33) Redirected page to [[Translated ZhongWen]]
09:09:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138250&oldid=138178 * PrySigneToFry * (+923)
09:10:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138251&oldid=138250 * PrySigneToFry * (-14)
09:11:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138252&oldid=138251 * PrySigneToFry * (-12)
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09:18:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/My Decimal Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138253&oldid=138218 * PrySigneToFry * (+29)
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10:01:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138254&oldid=137635 * PrySigneToFry * (+537)
10:07:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138255&oldid=138252 * Unname4798 * (+892)
10:08:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138256&oldid=138255 * Unname4798 * (-189)
10:17:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/My Decimal Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138257 * Unname4798 * (+214) Created page with "What is the formula for PSTF's number? ~~~"
10:18:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/My Decimal Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138258&oldid=138257 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:18:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/My Decimal Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138259&oldid=138258 * Unname4798 * (+4)
10:38:08 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138260&oldid=135904 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+201)
10:39:08 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138261&oldid=138260 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (-1)
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11:27:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138262&oldid=138244 * YufangTSTSU * (+129) /* Any account on other platforms? */
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12:47:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138263&oldid=138231 * Tommyaweosme * (+182) /* bring back the old sandbox war */
13:14:55 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unknown computational class]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138264&oldid=138225 * Corbin * (+570) Cool idea, but probably not feasible.
13:26:56 <fizzie> Okay, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Interwiki is now available for anyone to read, and for admins to modify.
13:31:16 <fizzie> I feel like there's so many links in that table, some of them must have died since then.
13:33:27 <int-e> groups.google.com still exists? :P
13:33:46 <fizzie> I'd add that aforementioned concatenative.org but I don't know if the interwiki prefix should be `cat`, `concat` or `concatenative`.
13:34:07 <fizzie> We use groups.google.com a lot internally, unsurprisingly.
13:34:09 <int-e> there's cache but no archive.org prefix... odd
13:34:25 <fizzie> (Maybe that's why the product hasn't been killed entirely?)
13:34:33 <fizzie> It's less useful now that it no longer functions as a Usenet frontend.
13:34:39 <int-e> The only thing I've ever used groups.google.com for was as an NNTP archive and I think that part is long gone.
13:35:53 <fizzie> All the entries in "My groups" at groups.google.com for my personal Gmail account are acting as ACL lists for dogfooding prerelease versions of different Google things.
13:36:26 <int-e> is there any downside to disabling forwarding for everything?
13:37:08 <int-e> (I don't mind the idea that those destinations are trusted, but I wonder what legitimate purpose these forwards really serve in the esolang context.)
13:37:51 <int-e> anyway, no real complaints
13:38:06 <int-e> also I wouldn't consider myself a heavy user of the wiki
13:38:56 <int-e> "A user with 231 edits. Account created on 27 September 2015."
13:39:11 <fizzie> You can write shorter links using the prefix, and it'd be possible to update them all at once if the destination changes their URLs, I imagine that's the primary advantage. Which is only relevant if people want to write such links and know about the feature, of course.
13:39:45 <fizzie> I'm sure we got the list from some list of defaults back when originally installing MediaWiki without thinking about it too much.
13:39:48 <int-e> But wouldn't the wiki expand them for you?
13:45:01 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't know what the "forward" column does. Yeah, the WikiMedia wikis should probably be "no" here, I don't think they're useful.
13:45:52 <fizzie> Ain't no-one going to try going to https://esolangs.org/wiki/wikipedia:Cat expecting it to work.
13:46:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138265&oldid=138262 * PrySigneToFry * (+659)
13:47:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikibooks" (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:48:04 <fizzie> Okay, this is going to cause a bit of spam since there's no bulk edit functionality.
13:48:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikinews" (https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:48:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikipedia" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:48:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikiquote" (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:49:00 * int-e pats esolangs on the head
13:49:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikisource" (https://wikisource.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:49:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikispecies" (https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:49:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikiversity" (https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:49:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wikt" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:49:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_edit * Fizzie * Fizzie modified prefix "wiktionary" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) in the interwiki table: disabling forwarding for WikiMedia wikis since we're not one
13:49:45 <fizzie> Think that was all of them.
13:53:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138266&oldid=138219 * PrySigneToFry * (+300)
13:54:58 <int-e> conway = https://conwaylife.com/wiki/$1 might be useful
13:56:55 <int-e> (inspired by https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitgrid which links to Unit Cell there)
14:11:54 <fizzie> Hmm, but should it be `conway:` or `life:`? Despite the URL, they do call themselves LifeWiki.
14:12:24 <fizzie> There should be some kind of a mechanism where each MediaWiki wiki can declare their preferred interwiki prefix, and/or a registry of them.
14:15:15 <b_jonas_> Steo: I think ARM32 supports two or three instruction sets, as in the classic one where instructions are fixed 32 bit long, and the variable one called thumb where instructions can be 16 or 32 bits long (maybe also longer), and I think you can mix these within a process
14:15:29 -!- b_jonas_ has changed nick to b_jonas.
14:16:54 <b_jonas> x86 has this too, in theory you could mix x86_16 and x86_32 code in the same process, it's just that that's very rarely worth, about the only time it comes up is if a 32-bit DOS extender wants to call into a DOS file system driver, or a 32-bit boot loader called into old style BIOS, or some nonsense like that.
14:17:18 <b_jonas> and those ones don't even count because those call into real mode, which you *can't* mix in the same process
14:17:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_add * Fizzie * Fizzie added prefix "life" (https://conwaylife.com/wiki/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) to the interwiki table: add LifeWiki (conwaylife.com) since it's relevant to our interests
14:17:25 <b_jonas> you can only mix 16-bit and 32-bit protected mode
14:19:54 <b_jonas> I changed opinion about the interwiki codes and I think they should just die these days. We should just use absolute URLs for every link, and if the wiki interface wants to display them in a special way, they can recognize the URLs directly.
14:20:46 <b_jonas> both google groups and yahoo groups does exist, basically they are mailing list servers where anyone can create mailing lists, and you can use the web interface to subscribe or read the archive
14:21:02 <b_jonas> they also used to have a usenet interface, but that part may have died
14:21:32 <fizzie> There's two versions of Thumb; the plain Thumb(-1) is also fixed-length at 16 bits, the extra 32-bit instructions are a Thumb-2 thing.
14:22:03 <fizzie> ARM also had that Jazelle thing, where it can execute Java bytecode "natively".
14:22:12 <b_jonas> what? how can you have a fixed 16-bit length instruction set these days?
14:22:37 <b_jonas> I mean it's not really "these days" because now everything runs ARM64 instead
14:23:23 <int-e> b_jonas: Hmm I don't hate the prefix but the fact that they are not displayed as external links feels odd.
14:23:50 <b_jonas> but obviously on an existing wiki we can't just disable support for interwiki prefixes, and both esolang wiki and the wikimedia sites are very long-lived, so we'll have them forever,
14:24:11 <b_jonas> so what I said applies only to new wikis
14:24:30 <b_jonas> int-e: how they're formatted is kind of supposed to be orthogonal to how they're displayed though
14:24:43 <fizzie> For Sgeo's question I was really only trying to think of examples about emulating older, pre-existing architectures, for backwards (or sideways) compatibility reasons.
14:25:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: x86_16 was an established older architecture when the 386 introduced x86_32
14:25:47 <b_jonas> oh wait, there's a better example
14:26:29 <b_jonas> I think there are 16-bit 6502 extensions that have a compatibility mode that closely emulates the 6502 (or some 8-bit 6502 variant), they behave like that older CPU by default, but can be switched to the more modern mode
14:26:41 <fizzie> There's a CSS class `extiw` on interwiki links (compared to `external text` for regular external links), so if I knew what I was doing I could probably make them render the same as external links.
14:26:54 <fizzie> That's pretty similar to the Z80/eZ80 thing.
14:26:58 <b_jonas> some of them are even hardware-compatible with an existing 6502 variant as long as you keep them in compatibility mode in software, but then change how they use pins if you switch to 16-bit mode
14:28:25 <b_jonas> they need a compatibility mode because the 6502 was so popular and third-parties documented all the undocumented instructions that a lot of programs relied on what almost all undocumented behavior is (with the exception of a few instructions that just freeze the CPU), so it's hard to add new instructions; plus also they didn't just want to add new instructions but replace many of the normal ones with
14:28:31 <fizzie> Yes, Sgeo mentioned 65816 having a 6502 mode.
14:28:48 <b_jonas> plus they can just run existing 8-bit 6502 software that way
14:29:48 <esolangs> [[*bfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138267 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+914) Created page with "'''*bfuck''' is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] based on [[brainfuck]] ==Commands== The tape has infinite amount of unsigned unbounded integers +-,.[] Are the same, <code><></code> are removed and there is additional command | Which toggles between two st
14:29:53 <b_jonas> int-e: I think most of the interwiki codes are just inherited from defaults from the mediawiki software
14:30:19 <korvo> fizzie: Thank you!
14:31:10 <b_jonas> "it'd be possible to update them all at once if the destination changes their URLs" => you can do URL rewriting with normal absolute URLs just as much, and then you don't need specific knowledge of the particular wiki. I think I've replaced OEIS links on the wiki after the old links failed to work.
14:31:13 <fizzie> korvo: I didn't actually add concatenative.org yet, because I couldn't pick the prefix. If you have an opinion on that, that might help.
14:31:43 <int-e> b_jonas: I was looking at a test edit to change the `unit cell` link I mentioned and now I'm not sure I want to actually do it.
14:32:30 <korvo> fizzie: "catlang wiki" was suggested in #concatenative; it's supposedly popular with their Discord community. I might suggest "catwiki" or "catlangwiki". "concatenative" is not a bad option, given that it's their channel and domain name.
14:32:34 <int-e> Because it would no longer indicate an external link.
14:32:54 <b_jonas> I've definitely replaced several links to OEIS and to Erich Friedman's webpage from elsewhere, mostly on SE. Sadly the Erich Friedman links are trickier because it's not just a simple prefix replace, pages moved within the site too. Technically some of that wasn't at the same time, but we don't replace links every half a year.
14:32:57 <int-e> "test edit" - a preview to use proper terminology
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14:33:44 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138268&oldid=121602 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+24) /* Things I made */
14:34:03 <b_jonas> Plus I think the complexity zoo may have moved. I think all three of these were universities getting nervous about what their subdomains point to and that they'll be considered endorsing everything hosted under any subdomain, which is kind of ridiculous but that's how politics goes.
14:34:09 <fizzie> korvo: It can't have a space in it for technical reasons, but both `catwiki` and `catlangwiki` would work.
14:34:33 <korvo> fizzie: Let's do `catlangwiki`. Thank you again for your attention to detail.
14:35:27 <b_jonas> "the WikiMedia wikis" => those shortcuts are probably among the more useful ones, because the esowiki was originally founded to rescue esolang documentation that would be deleted from en.wikipedia
14:35:37 <korvo> b_jonas: Complexity Zoo had some organizational issues; they couldn't really cross-reference. I visited a while ago and took detailed drawings (https://github.com/MostAwesomeDude/zaha/tree/master/complexity) but didn't write down the academic details.
14:35:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/interwiki]] iw_add * Fizzie * Fizzie added prefix "catlangwiki" (https://concatenative.org/wiki/view/$1) (trans: 0; local: 0) to the interwiki table: add prefix for concatenative.org
14:36:02 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138269&oldid=134927 * PrySigneToFry * (+303) I added even more horrible things in the page
14:36:14 <fizzie> And I'll probably also try to style interwiki links to indicate that they're external links, but only after running some errands.
14:36:26 <korvo> With both the Zoo and nLab, I've got projects (that one just linked and Catabase respectively) that are basically "this wiki could have been written as a SQL database, with constraints and checks and FKs".
14:36:49 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138270&oldid=138269 * PrySigneToFry * (+64)
14:37:21 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138271&oldid=137727 * B jonas * (+44)
14:38:43 <fizzie> On the other topic, the Commodore C128 _system_ has a "CP/M Mode", but that's just based on having a separate Z80 CPU in addition to the 8502 (similar to how GBA included an SM83, the Z80-alike of the original Game Boy), so that's on a different level than the CPU execution modes.
14:38:44 <esolangs> [[Cat (Language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138272&oldid=138069 * Corbin * (-47) Test out the new interwiki entry for concatenative.org.
14:39:10 <esolangs> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138273&oldid=107984 * B jonas * (+144)
14:39:44 <esolangs> [[Cat program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138274&oldid=138054 * Corbin * (+63) Also add a disambiguation link here, since this is currently the redirect target for [[Cat]].
14:42:16 <b_jonas> simcop2387: oh yeah, and the Commodore 128 has a Commodore 64 mode built into it, with partly separate hardware, and because the Commodore 64 was so popular but the 128 wasn't, most software running on the 128 is just Commodore 64-bit software
14:43:37 <b_jonas> while the GBC has a GB compatibility mode, but I think that doesn't really count as an emulation, most of what it does is slowing down the CPU+memory and not changing the video card to color mode
14:44:36 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138275&oldid=138199 * Ractangle * (+171) /* brainfuck */
14:46:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138276&oldid=138247 * PrySigneToFry * (+26) Added a sub-title
14:46:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138277&oldid=138276 * PrySigneToFry * (+4) Fixed
14:51:07 <simcop2387> lol, though if i had the space and time i'd have a C64 or C128 for playing with :)
14:52:17 <b_jonas> simcop2387: you can just emulate them these days
14:52:22 <fizzie> I had a C128, but donated it to someone else when I moved countries, wasn't really using it for anything.
14:52:54 <simcop2387> and i think the GBC was slightly different than that, it always boots in the slow mode and B&W until it sees the new GBC nintento copyright string/logo bitmap but it's been a while since i've looked into exactly how that worked anymore
14:53:22 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138278&oldid=138275 * Ractangle * (-3) /* /// */
14:55:08 <simcop2387> i'd also love to have a teletype of some kind acting as a notification printer like it's part of an old time news room getting automated telegraphs of breaking news but i'm a bit weird that way
14:57:50 <fizzie> I missed all the "other systems" growing up (we were always a PC household), so I got a few (the C128, a Performa 5200, a SparcStation 5, an SGI Indy) to play with when they were already obsolete.
14:59:54 <fizzie> The SS5 probably saw the most use, because it ran OpenBSD and was my router for a couple of years, until Fast Ethernet was no longer fast enough.
15:02:45 <fizzie> Come to think of it, that's where the logs.esolangs.org logs start from, because it's also where I ran irssi on and started logging: https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2002-12-14.html
15:04:01 <b_jonas> oh an OpenBSD router? nice
15:10:18 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138279 * PrySigneToFry * (+1862) Created page with " is an Esolang that designed and implemented by PSTF. It is reversed version of [[]]. == Command Table == <pre> This Esolang Brainfuck < >
15:12:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138280&oldid=138167 * PrySigneToFry * (+19)
15:16:25 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138281&oldid=137672 * PrySigneToFry * (+48)
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15:20:09 <esolangs> [[@!+-()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138282&oldid=116382 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+18) /* Specification */
15:21:15 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1310.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
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15:26:14 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138283&oldid=138278 * Ractangle * (+32) /* Befunge */
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15:43:57 <esolangs> [[OTS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138284 * Yayimhere * (+1411) Created page with "'''OTS'''(pronounced OATS) is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] == memory == memory is a stack holding negative esolangs. the stack can only hold 4 elements at a time == commands == {| class="wikitable" |+ commands |- ! command !! meaning |- | <code>W(''n'')</code>
15:44:16 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138285&oldid=138284 * Yayimhere * (-2)
15:49:27 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138286&oldid=138285 * Yayimhere * (+8)
16:03:25 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138287&oldid=138286 * Yayimhere * (+0)
16:05:47 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138288&oldid=138076 * Ractangle * (+22) /* syntax */
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16:58:19 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq/TCproof to Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138289&oldid=138131 * Hakerh400 * (+24) Fix some mistakes
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17:08:03 <esolangs> [[Try]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138290&oldid=138176 * BestCoder * (+240)
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17:09:34 <esolangs> [[Try/hello world]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138291 * BestCoder * (+69) Created page with "Message is an esolang about hello world == Main == Output is Message"
17:10:23 <esolangs> [[Try]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138292&oldid=138290 * BestCoder * (+35)
17:15:53 <esolangs> [[Comment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138293&oldid=138283 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* Befunge/>/*> */
17:16:43 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138294&oldid=138224 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* examples */ Fix link
17:18:26 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Turning tarpits]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138295 * BestCoder * (+23) Created page with "you mean turing tarpits"
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17:19:48 <esolangs> [[*bfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138296&oldid=138267 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+4) /* Commands */
17:20:18 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Turning tarpits]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138297&oldid=138295 * Yayimhere * (+169)
17:22:38 <esolangs> [[OTS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138298&oldid=138287 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
17:22:48 <esolangs> [[OTS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138299&oldid=138298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Typo
17:23:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/rights]] rights * Fizzie * changed group membership for User:Fizzie from bureaucrat, checkuser, sysop to bureaucrat, checkuser, sysop, interface-admin: grant interface-admin rights to self in hopes of restyling interwiki links
17:25:37 <esolangs> [[Kicky BCT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138300&oldid=138240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) Categories
17:26:27 <esolangs> [[Timelang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138301 * BestCoder * (+426) Created page with "You have to wait to code == Idea == time mod 8 determines what thing gets ran time%8 do 0 add one to current cell 1 sub one to current cell 2 move one cell left 3 move one cell right 4 input to cell 5 output from cell 6 start
17:29:09 <esolangs> [[EmojiCoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138302&oldid=78174 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:29:11 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138303&oldid=134424 * BestCoder * (+18)
17:30:24 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138304&oldid=51399 * Fizzie * (+270) attempt to style interwiki links with the external-site link indicator
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17:34:31 <fizzie> Kinda tricky. Different skins apply the "external site" icon differently; default Vector does it by setting a background-image to a small SVG, positioning it to 'center right' and adding a bit of padding; Citizen does it by adding an ::after pseudo-element that's `background-color: currentcolor` + masked with an SVG data: URL, presumably so that it inherits the color. But Common.css is common to
17:34:33 <fizzie> both, and I really don't want to start doing that per-skin.
17:35:08 <fizzie> In the end just applied Vector's simpler external-link styling to a.extiw.
17:35:35 <fizzie> The _right_ way to do it of course would've been to put the `external` CSS class to interwiki links as well, but couldn't find an option to do that.
17:41:57 <korvo> wWwwW: Mediawiki and similar wiki software has the concept of "interwiki", which lets us bluelink between different wikis. It's a little brittle, but it's mostly just a way to manage lots of offsite URLs.
17:44:00 <esolangs> [[~~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138305 * Yayimhere * (+1425) Created page with "'''~~'''(first of all idk how i got that name second of all its pronounced sin) is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] while on a twitch stream == ~~ hexadecimal format == ~~ has a way to write hexadecimal numbers(where there are couples so they can be divided into chu
17:44:08 <korvo> fizzie: For some reason, `position: absolute` is getting added to that class. Pages like [[Cammy]] are getting a pile of links dragged to the top-right.
17:44:24 <wWwwW> hey korvo. it had a link to send you(idk if you've seen it) its the crafting esolang. here it is: https://hackmd.io/@idkleftoutsidekkk/ryM0QbI3C
17:46:26 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138306&oldid=138305 * Yayimhere * (-1)
17:47:56 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138307&oldid=138304 * Fizzie * (+1) add a missing )
17:48:20 <fizzie> korvo: I missed a ) in `url(...)` and somehow didn't notice.
17:58:33 <korvo> fizzie: Nice, looks great.
17:58:49 <wWwwW> the link should work now
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18:02:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Push-down automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138308&oldid=20543 * BestCoder * (+601)
18:02:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Push-down automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138309&oldid=138308 * BestCoder * (+60)
18:04:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138310&oldid=137254 * Tommyaweosme * (+242)
18:06:06 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138311 * Xarthan * (+450) Created page
18:07:35 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138312&oldid=138311 * Xarthan * (+49) lmao
18:21:10 <wWwwW> is it ready for the wiki?
18:22:43 <b_jonas> fungot, how often do you dishearten, and how often do you connive?
18:22:44 <fungot> b_jonas: please look at r5rs: the revised5 report on scheme
18:33:51 <esolangs> [[Direction]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138313 * BestCoder * (+727) Created page with "This is a esolang that uses 2d syntax, plus orthogonal directions == The but == every direction command when you step on it it gets deleted == Commands == <>^v: direction commands I: get input and push it to stack ?: pops from stack and if that is 0 turn left >0
18:35:07 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138314&oldid=138303 * BestCoder * (+20)
18:35:33 <wWwwW> is it ready for the wiki korvo?
18:36:04 <korvo> wWwwW: I don't know. I don't think I am a good person to ask about that.
18:38:27 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138315&oldid=138299 * Ractangle * (+71)
18:39:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138316&oldid=138236 * Ractangle * (+12)
18:40:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Assembolge]] to [[User:Ractangle:Assembolge]]
18:41:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle:Assembolge]] to [[User:Ractangle/Assembolge]]
18:49:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/Assembolge]] to [[User:Ractangle/iurgdytrh]]
18:50:01 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/iurgdytrh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138323&oldid=138321 * Ractangle * (+6)
18:54:36 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138324&oldid=138173 * Ractangle * (-9) /* Esolangs */
19:00:15 <esolangs> [[Markont]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138325&oldid=43106 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Example */
19:01:23 <esolangs> [[Randwork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138326&oldid=51122 * Ractangle * (+22) /* External resources */
19:02:00 <esolangs> [[Expandable Quantum Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138327&oldid=59466 * Ractangle * (+22)
19:06:22 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138328&oldid=136046 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Sources */
19:07:15 <esolangs> [[Awib]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138329&oldid=88809 * Ractangle * (+22)
19:09:53 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138330&oldid=138294 * Yayimhere * (+181)
19:14:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck minus -]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138331&oldid=59759 * Ractangle * (+22) /* See also */
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19:15:34 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138332&oldid=135814 * BestCoder * (+72)
19:17:01 <esolangs> [[FRAK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138333&oldid=125034 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
19:21:30 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138334&oldid=138332 * BestCoder * (+308)
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20:33:36 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138335&oldid=138312 * Xarthan * (+872) language overview
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20:40:30 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138336&oldid=138335 * Xarthan * (+111) file type and language overveiw edits
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20:53:50 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1310.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
20:56:06 <b_jonas> Sgeo: fizzie had rang the obell earlier
21:01:43 <esolangs> [[OTS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138337&oldid=138315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) .
21:02:35 <esolangs> [[Direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138338&oldid=138313 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Categories
21:06:11 <esolangs> [[Timelang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138339&oldid=138301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+162) Categories
21:24:16 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138340&oldid=138336 * Xarthan * (+40) fixed bit count mistake
21:27:24 <zzo38> How to securely specify that a self-signed X.509 certificate supersedes another self-signed X.509 certificate? Since a certificate contains a public key, presumably you could use that for security, but is there the way to use in this way, or will it be necessary to make up a new extension for this purpose?
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22:23:36 <user3456> zzo38: why not self sign a root cert and sign other certs with it
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22:59:41 <zzo38> Then what if you will want to revoke the root certificate?
23:00:26 <zzo38> Also, signing other certificates with a root certificate will not tell you that one certificate is intended to supersede another one.
23:15:49 <zzo38> (You could use the names to indicate this, although this won't help if the names will be changed or if the names are later used by someone else (with the same certificate authority), as well as the other reasons such as if you will want to revoke the root certificate for whatever reason)
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00:11:37 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138341&oldid=138270 * None1 * (+6)
00:13:09 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138342&oldid=138279 * None1 * (+1) /* Example */
00:24:44 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138343&oldid=138340 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+158) Categories
00:27:03 <zzo38> I had consider how to make the "Common Data Format" of the operating system design. Perhaps it can be: 8-bits command code, 4-bits length type, 4-bits data type. The data types might be: 0=compound, 1=raw, 2=text, 3=reference, etc. (The number of bits allocated to each part also might be different, if this is consider to be not good enough)
00:30:59 <zzo38> What is your opinions of such a thing like that?
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00:36:59 <zzo38> One possible consideration that might be needed is if a container has an unknown length.
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00:48:22 <esolangs> [[Factor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138344&oldid=136304 * None1 * (+95) Distinguish confusion
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01:01:58 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Iternary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138345&oldid=136799 * Gilbert189 * (-390) Removed all the ellipses (it makes implementation more difficult)
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01:48:04 <esolangs> [[QuickLangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138346&oldid=129460 * PaxtonPenguin * (-94)
01:48:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PaxtonPenguin * moved [[QuickLangs]] to [[QuickLang]]: no mo others
01:48:52 <esolangs> [[QuickLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138349&oldid=138347 * PaxtonPenguin * (-26)
01:49:40 <esolangs> [[User:PaxtonPenguin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138350&oldid=129331 * PaxtonPenguin * (-1)
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02:17:12 <esolangs> [[User:Qawtykit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138351&oldid=125000 * Qawtykit * (+16)
02:18:48 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138352&oldid=138343 * Xarthan * (+259) added more opcodes
02:21:26 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138353&oldid=138352 * Xarthan * (+55) Clarified descriptions
02:32:05 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138354&oldid=138353 * Xarthan * (+290) memory-mapped I/O edits
02:44:47 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138355&oldid=138293 * None1 * (+311)
02:55:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138356&oldid=138266 * PrySigneToFry * (+353)
02:56:38 <zzo38> Is there a way in Linux, for a C program to call a function to save the user memory of the program in a way that can later be restored? File descriptors should not be saved, and user/group IDs should not be saved, etc.
03:00:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138357&oldid=138263 * PrySigneToFry * (+836)
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03:01:55 <zzo38> For example, it could be: int write_user_memory(int fd); Returns 1 if successful, 0 if just restored, or -1 if error.
03:02:44 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138358&oldid=138354 * Xarthan * (+0)
03:03:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138359&oldid=138357 * PrySigneToFry * (-3)
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03:32:00 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138360&oldid=138358 * Xarthan * (+0)
03:32:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138361&oldid=138256 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
03:36:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138362&oldid=138361 * None1 * (+264)
03:38:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138363&oldid=138362 * PrySigneToFry * (+847) /* */ new section
03:39:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138364&oldid=138363 * PrySigneToFry * (+799)
03:44:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138365&oldid=138364 * None1 * (+328)
03:51:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138366&oldid=138365 * None1 * (+293) /* */
04:15:10 <esolangs> [[Factor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138367&oldid=138344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) :
04:19:15 <korvo> TIL about [[Template:Distinguish/Confusion]]; thanks PSDW for showing the way.
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04:40:51 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138368 * PrySigneToFry * (+585) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again3]] 1. Semi-product <pre> Leidse. swing swing swing My name is Joan of Arc Bonni. Avelis. This is a document. TantYachiukevkuchokera prays; In the camera, come on, come on, come on. swing Tippiene Aniza Retdak. </pre>
04:41:52 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138369&oldid=138140 * PrySigneToFry * (+46)
04:43:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138370&oldid=138366 * PrySigneToFry * (+713)
04:43:35 <zzo38> O, about my "Common Data Format", it seem that ASN.1 has a way of making indefinite length, so something like that could be used. Actually, it could be made more like ASN.1 in other ways too, e.g. instead of the length type and data type like that, can use one bit to indicate constructed or primitive like ASN.1 is doing.
04:50:14 -!- wWwwW has joined.
05:14:24 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138371&oldid=138330 * Yayimhere * (+20)
05:18:13 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unknown computational class]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138372&oldid=138264 * Yayimhere * (+155)
05:20:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138373&oldid=138359 * Yayimhere * (+68) /* bring back the old sandbox war */
05:22:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138374&oldid=138373 * Yayimhere * (+187) /* bring back the old sandbox war */
05:54:15 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138375&oldid=138341 * Unname4798 * (+3)
06:01:02 <wWwwW> that every minimaztation of BF
06:01:44 <wWwwW> has a problem with that when you try to minimize < and > you always end up having one preserved and the second one changed but sstill the same number of commands
06:03:16 <esolangs> [[Brainhook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138376&oldid=137976 * Yayimhere * (+1)
06:16:52 <wWwwW> am i stupid for working on burn now
06:22:41 <zzo38> Why do some HTTP servers send a compressed response even if the client does not request it?
06:31:18 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138377&oldid=137571 * Yayimhere * (+135) /* Burn */
06:31:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138378&oldid=138377 * Yayimhere * (-2098) /* BackFlip x sets */
06:31:57 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138379&oldid=138378 * Yayimhere * (-547) /* idea 1 */
06:32:09 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138380&oldid=138379 * Yayimhere * (-3188) /* idea 3 */
06:32:47 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138381&oldid=138380 * Yayimhere * (-609) /* math in ()NEST() */
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07:11:37 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138382&oldid=138337 * Yayimhere * (+22)
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08:38:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: does that involve the HTTP 2 or 3 protocol? if so, I think allowing compression is assumed in those protocols even if it's not explicitly listed in the header. if not, I think I've seen at least one specialized server that still does that, with the justification that if you're downloading the large data involved uncompressed then you're just wasting everyone's bandwidth, and everyone has access
08:38:45 <b_jonas> to a zlib decompression implementation these days.
09:03:30 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138383&oldid=138355 * Ractangle * (+80) /* Befunge/>/*> */
09:05:36 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138384&oldid=138383 * Yayimhere * (+30)
09:36:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/iurgdytrh]] to [[Input hello world or else:]]
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09:43:00 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138387&oldid=138385 * Ractangle * (+15)
09:43:29 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138388&oldid=138387 * Ractangle * (+24)
09:45:28 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138389&oldid=138324 * Ractangle * (+89)
09:46:53 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138390&oldid=138316 * Ractangle * (+13)
09:48:19 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138391&oldid=138306 * Yayimhere * (+44) /* syntax */
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09:49:34 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138392&oldid=138391 * Yayimhere * (+60) /* ~~ hexadecimal format */
09:50:06 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138393&oldid=138388 * Ractangle * (+112)
09:51:02 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138394&oldid=138392 * Yayimhere * (+44)
09:51:50 <esolangs> [[QuickLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138395&oldid=138349 * Ractangle * (+0) mispel
09:52:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:QuickLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138396 * Ractangle * (+190) Created page with "good execution :thumbsup:~~~"
09:53:07 <esolangs> [[QuickLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138397&oldid=138395 * Ractangle * (+23)
09:53:29 <esolangs> [[QuickLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138398&oldid=138397 * Ractangle * (+17)
09:53:55 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138399&oldid=138394 * Yayimhere * (+59) /* syntax */
09:54:22 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138400&oldid=138399 * Yayimhere * (+42) /* ~~ hexadecimal format */
09:55:20 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138401&oldid=138400 * Yayimhere * (+17)
09:55:59 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138402&oldid=138401 * Yayimhere * (+0)
10:02:04 <esolangs> [[X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138403&oldid=72690 * Ractangle * (+23)
10:03:04 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138404&oldid=137713 * Ractangle * (-15) /* G# */
10:03:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138405&oldid=135450 * PkmnQ * (+2306) /* Some ideas */
10:03:46 <wWwwW> this guy is fr every esolang creator: https://xkcd.com/2309/
10:04:16 <esolangs> [[Empty Program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138406&oldid=138105 * Ractangle * (-15) /* G# */
10:04:39 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138407&oldid=137914 * Ractangle * (-15) /* G# */
10:12:30 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138408&oldid=138384 * Ractangle * (+65) /* CLFCE */
10:13:05 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138409&oldid=138408 * Ractangle * (-19) /* Befunge/>/*> */
10:13:49 <esolangs> [[Mildfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138410 * Yb1 * (+1332) Page created
10:16:00 <esolangs> [[Mildfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138411&oldid=138410 * Yb1 * (+13) fixed typo
10:22:36 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138412&oldid=138409 * Ractangle * (+103) /* MarioLANG */
10:24:09 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138413 * Unname4798 * (+425) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:Unname4798|f=[[Input hello world or else:]] but without a quine}} If you type: grrrrrrrrr It outputs: Are you angry? == Interpreters == === JS === <pre> var command = ""; /* Replace the empty string with user input */
10:24:21 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138414&oldid=138413 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:25:15 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138415&oldid=138414 * Unname4798 * (-43)
10:27:17 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138416&oldid=138415 * Unname4798 * (+35)
10:29:05 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138417&oldid=138416 * Unname4798 * (+32)
10:29:14 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138418&oldid=138417 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:29:27 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138419&oldid=138418 * Unname4798 * (-1)
10:29:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] to [[Input hello world or else without a quine]]
10:30:02 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138422&oldid=138421 * Unname4798 * (-45) Removed redirect to [[Input hello world or else without a quine]]
10:30:12 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138423&oldid=138422 * Unname4798 * (+0)
10:30:59 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else: without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138424&oldid=138423 * Unname4798 * (+45) Redirected page to [[Input hello world or else without a quine]]
10:31:31 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138425&oldid=138420 * Unname4798 * (+13)
10:31:56 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138426&oldid=138425 * Unname4798 * (+4)
10:33:56 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138427&oldid=138426 * Unname4798 * (+18)
10:34:23 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138428&oldid=138427 * Unname4798 * (+1)
10:35:08 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138429&oldid=138428 * Unname4798 * (-20)
10:38:10 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138430&oldid=138429 * Unname4798 * (+34)
10:38:43 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138431&oldid=138430 * Unname4798 * (+17)
10:41:42 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138432&oldid=138431 * Unname4798 * (+65)
10:48:05 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138433&oldid=138024 * Unname4798 * (+65)
10:53:00 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138434&oldid=138412 * Ractangle * (-60) /* /// */
10:59:02 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138435 * Ractangle * (+304) Created page with "the interpriter is an edited version of this code: from ast import While print("Hello world") answer=input("input hello world or else:") if answer == "hello world" : print("thanks for hello world") input("press
10:59:22 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138436&oldid=138435 * Ractangle * (+14)
11:00:03 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138437&oldid=138393 * Ractangle * (+72)
11:00:25 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138438&oldid=138436 * Ractangle * (+4)
11:00:39 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138439&oldid=138438 * Ractangle * (+0)
11:01:55 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138440&oldid=138439 * Ractangle * (+37)
11:21:23 <b_jonas> wWwwW: you want https://esolangs.org/wiki/WysiScript
11:22:43 <wWwwW> what question is dis for
11:24:41 <b_jonas> wWwwW: for https://xkcd.com/2309/
11:26:34 <wWwwW> ill go into implemtation and tyoe until there are no errors:)
11:26:44 <int-e> . o O ( https://wiki.haskell.org/Obfuscation#Example but worse )
11:37:27 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138441&oldid=138434 * Ractangle * (+102)
11:37:39 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138442&oldid=138441 * Ractangle * (+2) /* !!brainfeed */
11:38:30 <esolangs> [[!!Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138443&oldid=131287 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Truth Machine */
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12:28:30 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138444&oldid=137481 * Yayimhere * (-501) /* one with no complexity(showed up to have complexity) */
12:30:03 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138445&oldid=138444 * Yayimhere * (-30) /* a step by step version */
12:34:36 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138446&oldid=138445 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* a step by step version */
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12:47:33 <wWwwW> what categories should dis have?:
12:47:33 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/RECT4n%3DGLE
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12:58:23 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138447&oldid=135856 * Ractangle * (-27)
13:03:47 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138448&oldid=138446 * JJRubes * (+36) spelling and wording edits
13:11:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138449&oldid=92081 * Yayimhere * (+103)
13:15:42 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138450&oldid=138448 * JJRubes * (+125) add link to implementation
13:25:55 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138451&oldid=138442 * None1 * (+919)
13:26:34 <wWwwW> hey ais523 if u here. somenody made a RECT4n=GLE compiler! you can check it out on the page
13:30:23 <esolangs> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138452&oldid=115708 * None1 * (+18) /* Comments */
13:31:29 <esolangs> [[Comment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138453&oldid=138451 * None1 * (+14) /* Brain-Flak */
13:32:08 <esolangs> [[Comment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138454&oldid=138453 * None1 * (+26) /* See also */
13:32:36 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138455&oldid=135417 * Ractangle * (+39) /* Python */
13:33:48 <esolangs> [[Comment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138456&oldid=138454 * None1 * (+1) /* Brain-Flak */
13:34:22 <esolangs> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138457&oldid=138452 * None1 * (+1) /* Comments */
13:41:00 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138458&oldid=138447 * None1 * (+57) /* Implementations */
13:41:47 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138459&oldid=138015 * None1 * (+15) /* My Implementations */
13:43:34 <esolangs> [[Eafh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138460&oldid=131391 * None1 * (+29)
13:43:55 <esolangs> [[Deadfih]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138461&oldid=134365 * None1 * (+28) /* Implementation */
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14:13:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Faustify * uploaded "[[File:Helloworld1.png]]": First part of a Blues++ implementation of Hello World.
14:14:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Faustify * uploaded "[[File:Helloworld2.png]]": Second part of a Blues++ implementation of Hello World
14:14:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Faustify * uploaded "[[File:Helloworld3.png]]": Third part of a Blues++ implementation of Hello World
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14:18:37 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138465 * None1 * (+567) Created page with "Let's be crazier! 1. Program <pre> No, No, No, Historical records Disable lock screen Hide Menu Bar Click to set this setting as an option _Stay away from full screen display swing Hide Menu Bar </pre> 2. Translate: Baidu: English -> Classical Chinese
14:19:05 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138466&oldid=138465 * None1 * (+24)
14:19:12 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138467&oldid=138466 * None1 * (+1)
14:23:49 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/None1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138468 * None1 * (+2079) Created page with "1. Take the semiproduct <pre> SRC T[UNK]kikik a UNK]r character[UNK]chenbarder. > < ^ V ..."
14:25:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138469&oldid=138248 * None1 * (+699) /* Translate it even scarier if thouyou want. */
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14:38:03 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138470&oldid=138402 * Yayimhere * (+48) /* tips */
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14:59:56 <korvo> wWwwW: I don't think it's stupid to look at Burn, but it's kind of surprising that somebody who isn't the original author would think that they can help remember how it works.
15:00:59 <wWwwW> my progress is stupid
15:01:06 <wWwwW> you can see it on my talk page ig
15:01:23 <korvo> I don't know. It reminds me of Prince's guitar licks. He was so certain that each and every little scrap of his music was worthy, so late in life he published a massive catalogue of random five-second snippets of guitar.
15:02:44 <korvo> I'm not saying that you should stop, nor that it's a stupid effort. I'm saying that it makes me think about the world.
15:09:44 <esolangs> [[Blues++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138471&oldid=138018 * Faustify * (+2889) Updated information
15:35:17 <esolangs> [[Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138472&oldid=124428 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+54) /* Commands */
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16:49:16 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138473&oldid=138161 * DGCK81LNN * (+457)
16:50:16 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138474&oldid=138473 * DGCK81LNN * (+8) /* Example programs */
16:53:22 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138475&oldid=138474 * DGCK81LNN * (+3) /* Example programs */
16:58:58 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138476&oldid=138437 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+81) Categories
17:00:35 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138477&oldid=138189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
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17:02:19 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138478&oldid=138368 * MihaiEso * (+39)
17:05:04 <esolangs> [[~~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138479&oldid=138470 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:06:21 <esolangs> [[FizzLang Unbounded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138480&oldid=138233 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+166) Categories
17:06:37 <esolangs> [[FizzLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138481&oldid=129425 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* See also */ FizzLang Unbounded
17:10:25 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138482 * MihaiEso * (+1129) Created page with "I made [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again4]] much worse ~~~~ 1. Take the semi-product again <pre> No, No, No, Historical records Disable lock screen Hide Menu Bar Click to set this setting as an option _Stay away from full screen display swing Hide Menu Ba
17:10:48 <esolangs> [[Mildfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138483&oldid=138411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) Categories
17:10:57 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138484&oldid=138482 * MihaiEso * (+6)
17:11:24 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138485&oldid=138484 * MihaiEso * (-12)
17:12:05 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138486&oldid=138476 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) See also
17:13:44 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138487&oldid=138432 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) Categories
17:15:07 <esolangs> [[QuickLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138488&oldid=138398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Categories
17:20:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Push-down automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138489&oldid=138309 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Newline
17:29:35 <esolangs> [[1066]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138490&oldid=81581 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4031) Improve page
17:34:16 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/FIsh&Chips]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138491&oldid=135911 * Ractangle * (+49)
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17:37:59 <ipadwwwww> im bored what esolang should i make?
17:38:52 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/FIsh&Chips]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138492&oldid=138491 * Ractangle * (+72)
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17:45:07 <ais523> <zzo38> Is there a way in Linux, for a C program to call a function to save the user memory of the program in a way that can later be restored? File descriptors should not be saved, and user/group IDs should not be saved, etc. ← not officially; old versions of Emacs used to do tha by dumping core, which makes the saving very easy, but restoring is much harder
17:46:14 <ais523> Linux *did* add a lot of new syscalls semi-recently to make restoring that sort of memory image possible, though, to the extent of doing things like setting the base address to the stack to the same location as in a previous run of the program (rather than choosing it randomly)
17:47:25 <korvo> As long as we're stepping outside of pure Linux, Capsicum can do that too.
17:47:53 <ais523> there are programs that are designed to do that sort of dumping and undumping from outside a process, like CRIU <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRIU>
17:48:04 <ais523> but that's a bit different from having a call for a process to dump itself
17:49:23 <esolangs> [[...]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138493&oldid=117989 * Ractangle * (-28) /* Interpreter */
17:49:33 <ais523> wow, that's quite impressive in the list of things it can save and restore
17:50:23 <ais523> "open, established TCP connections" are not something I had in mind as being saveable and restorable (of course, you have to do it quickly enough that the other side of the connection doesn't give up and time out)
17:50:38 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138494&oldid=137857 * Tommyaweosme * (+101)
17:51:10 <ipadwwwww> im bored what esolang should i make?( sorry for resend)
17:52:17 <ais523> you could try writing programs in existing esolangs, or interpreters for them
17:52:26 <ais523> that way you don't need a good idea to create something interesting
17:54:43 <ais523> <wWwwW> why is it that every minimaztation of BF has a problem with that when you try to minimize < and > you always end up having one preserved and the second one changed but sstill the same number of commands ← it's basically because >< does nothing in BF, so it's a great place for a minimization to work by adding side effects, you want >< to produce the side effect once so you have to add it to one of the movement directions but not the other
17:54:43 <b_jonas> they freeze all your friends and relatives with you so they aren't aged at all when you wake up, they recreate your half-finished steak dinner by frying a new slice of beef freshly and putting identical bitemarks in it with a replica of your teeth created from a mold, they adjust the planet's rotation and glue leaves back onto trees so you don't notice that the seasons have passed,
17:56:13 <ipadwwwww> this was realted cuz i was making a bf minimalization
17:56:33 <ipadwwwww> dis is it: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainhook
17:56:50 <b_jonas> they remove the batteries from all your portable devices so that they don't get damaged by leaking acid, then put back new but partially drained batteries painted identically when they awaken you, they clone your dog and use smell samples from your clothes to train her to accept you as her master,
17:57:31 <ais523> OK, quick "is this TC" puzzle (I don't know the answer): BF where >+ and <- are commands but > + < - individually aren't
17:58:20 <b_jonas> ais523: what? wouldn't that always leave the tape state like 1 1 ... 1 1 (head) 0 0 ...
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17:59:05 <b_jonas> because you said >+ and <- instead of >+ and -<
17:59:06 <ais523> no, you can alternate between them to create more of a difference
17:59:11 <ais523> you're probably thinking of >+ and -<, right
17:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/FIsh&Chips]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138495&oldid=138492 * Ractangle * (+75) /* Syntax */
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17:59:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/FIsh&Chips]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138496&oldid=138495 * Ractangle * (+4)
17:59:45 <ais523> what if you ignore every second cell on the tape, allowing it to have an arbitrary value and never loop-testing it
18:00:07 <ais523> then decrement becomes >< and increment becomes <>, I think that trivially makes it TC
18:00:36 <ais523> yep, right is >>>< and left is <<<> and then we have a simple translation back to BF
18:00:58 <ais523> I do like the symmetry, though
18:02:00 <b_jonas> that doesn't work in the BF flavor where overflowing or underflowing a cell raises undefined behavior
18:02:57 <ais523> I noticed that, but decided it wasn't worth mentioning because very few BF implementations work like that
18:03:06 <ais523> they're nearly all either bignum or wrwap
18:03:44 <ais523> I think the closest you get to something like that is Brainpocalypse (where underflow isn't UB but does have weird side effects)
18:03:51 <b_jonas> this works even if underflow or underflow leaves arbitrary value in the cell you're crementing
18:04:25 <ais523> now I have to work out if we both coined "crement" as a verb independently or if you copied it from me – either way it's a bit surprising
18:04:39 <ais523> I guess it's a fairly obvious coinage?
18:04:43 <ipadwwwww> ive made,my smallest bf minimilazation yet
18:04:55 <b_jonas> I copied it from elsewhere
18:05:45 <korvo> ipadwwwww: It's worth understanding that Brainfuck is already minimal over a certain kind of infinite-register machine. So taking features away from it is going to usually result in something that is fundamentally no longer about registers.
18:06:11 <korvo> I dumped a bunch of information related to this at [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] FWIW.
18:07:41 <korvo> Also, on a personal note: don't think of yourself as stupid, just not yet researched. With time and careful reading, anybody can get into this stuff. Maths is always frustrating because it's about shortcuts and ways of thinking; it's not obvious, but must be taught.
18:07:42 <ais523> korvo: what about messing with the control flow (e.g. Brainpocalypse, Brainpocalypse II)?
18:08:15 <int-e> b_jonas: I imagine it's still TC for relatively small ranged of signed integers; you can control the growth of values by periodically copying things to the right. Bitwise Cyclic Tag might be a good target for getting a really small range.
18:08:35 <ipadwwwww> also i have nothing else to make fun of ._.
18:09:14 <ais523> OK, now I am wondering how many pairs of brackets are needed to make non-bignum BF TC
18:09:26 <ais523> (with bignum BF you can do it with two pairs, which have to be nested for obvious reasons)
18:10:12 <korvo> ais523: I think both cases give us a finite-register machine?
18:10:35 <int-e> Just ...[...[...]...]? Hmm.
18:10:40 <ais523> korvo: Brainpocalypse II is definitely a finite register machine; the original Brainpocalypse is less obvious
18:10:43 <esolangs> [[Brainhooking]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138497 * Gggfr * (+304) Created page with "'''brainhooking''' is [[brainhook]] but smaller. its made by the same creator == changes == first of all now theres only 500 cells(with wraping around), second of all the # command is gone, and <code>-</code> is changed to <code>+(n)</code> which will add the signed b
18:11:06 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/FIsh&Chips]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138498&oldid=138496 * Ractangle * (+72)
18:11:08 <ipadwwwww> brainfuck but it hates you even more
18:11:54 <b_jonas> huh, I thought the minimal number of brainfuck brackets was already solved for non-bignum
18:12:02 <korvo> ipadwwwww: It might interest you that Brainfuck was never meant to be painful. It directly inherits from Corrado Böhm's P", which itself was intended to simplify Turing machines.
18:12:41 <korvo> Practical macro-based Brainfuck programming is slightly difficult, but not much harder than other handcoded assembly programs.
18:13:04 <int-e> b_jonas: I only remember work on the minimal nesting level
18:13:11 <ais523> korvo: and the fun thing there is that P'' was minimised to start with, with one of +- being combined with one of <>
18:13:14 <korvo> Oh. Why? I'm not against BDSM but I'm curious about motivations.
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18:13:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138499&oldid=137973 * Ractangle * (+269) /* can somebody explain why cant i make DISPLAYTITLE work properly */ new section
18:13:58 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. Same thing that showed up in the semantics. I think it might be a sort of natural ring-ish situation, but I haven't proven anything about it. Proving facts about machines is hard and unfun.
18:14:24 <b_jonas> korvo: no, Böhm has independently preinvented Brainfuck.
18:14:38 <b_jonas> it's not really inheritance, it's more like parallle evolution
18:14:42 <korvo> Ah, they left before I could mention the classics [[Malbolge]] and [[INTERCAL]].
18:14:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138500&oldid=138499 * Ais523 * (+433) /* can somebody explain why cant i make DISPLAYTITLE work properly */ it doesn't let you break links with it
18:14:46 <b_jonas> convergent evolution or something
18:15:20 <korvo> Wasn't Brainfuck from an Amiga hacker? But also yeah, Böhm definitely wasn't credited during his lifetime appropriately.
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18:15:41 <ais523> korvo: INTERCAL does have some places where it's intentionally difficult, e.g. not having 32-bit numerical constants, but the restrictions are fairly minor
18:16:04 <ais523> and I think they're intended more to make programs look scarier/harder to read than they are to make programs harder to write
18:17:09 <ais523> there's a quote from the designers about how the way you initialise a 32-bit integer variable is intentionallly stupid, in order to make people look silly when they try to explain that it's the simplest way (but worded better than that)
18:17:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138501&oldid=138500 * Ractangle * (+187) /* can somebody explain why cant i make DISPLAYTITLE work properly */
18:17:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138502&oldid=138501 * Ractangle * (+9) /* can somebody explain why cant i make DISPLAYTITLE work properly */
18:17:38 <int-e> the constant interleave/select dance (for example to add two numbers) is annoying
18:18:14 <int-e> trintercal made a good point though
18:18:21 <ais523> INTERCAL's arithmetic only really shines in cases where you use selects to do something other than reversing the mingles
18:18:36 <int-e> people *know* how boolean logic works and how to use it to do math
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18:19:14 <ais523> that said, mingles did have their one moment of glory in that FFT algorithm
18:19:35 <korvo> ipadwwwww: Welcome back. I was going to mention [[Malbolge]], which *is* designed to be difficult to write code for. [[INTERCAL]] is another classic, and its humor might appeal to you.
18:19:39 <ais523> (and INTERCAL's select is a processor instruction on x86-64 nowadays, although they probably didn't borrow it from there)
18:20:10 <ais523> the inverse of select is also a processor instruction on x86-64, which can be used to get an efficient mingle
18:20:11 <korvo> These have something amazing in common that Brainfuck doesn't: we think that writing correct Malbolge or INTERCAL programs is computationally hard. Like, IIRC Malbolge is NP-hard?
18:20:13 <int-e> and oerjan's unlambda interpreter used a linear shift register as a counter (incrementing a heap pointer for allocations, all IIRC)
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18:20:33 <ais523> korvo: I don't think writing correct INTERCAL programs is computationally hard
18:21:04 <ais523> and Malbolge has been cracked to the extent that compilers into it exist
18:21:06 <int-e> intercal came with a standard library that provided common operations like addition
18:21:10 <korvo> ais523: I thought that there was something about multiple-entry blocks and computing where to place PLEASEs. I freely confess I actively avoided learning INTERCAL.
18:21:17 <int-e> it has sane subroutines; that alone will make translation easy
18:21:25 <int-e> malbolge is quite different
18:21:59 <ais523> korvo: the compiler just checks that the PLEASE proportion is in the range 1/5 to 1/3 inclusive, you can fulfil that requirement by placing a PLEASE on the third, seventh, eleventh, fifteenth, etc. statement
18:22:02 <int-e> There are no restrictions on where you can PLEASE the compiler.
18:22:35 <int-e> The stupidest thing is that you have to cover all paths to check whether you suffered from the random compiler bug.
18:22:40 <ais523> it might be fun to base it on the ratio of statements executed (continuously evaluated) rather than the ratio of statements in the source, that would be much more confusing to think about
18:22:47 <int-e> (which C-INTERCAL allows you to disable)
18:23:06 <ais523> it kind-of has to be disabled to be able to write reliable test suites
18:23:14 <korvo> Ah, I didn't know PLEASE was a static requirement. I thought it *was* measured line-by-line, like some sort of demented BASIC runtime counter.
18:23:16 <ais523> I think all the compilers that have that let you turn it off, including the original
18:23:39 <ais523> although CLC-INTERCAL has two random compiler bugs with different probabilities, and different options to disable each of them
18:23:58 <int-e> I fondly remember the circuitious diagram.
18:24:32 <int-e> I should check the prononciation of that word!
18:24:43 <ais523> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg
18:25:04 <int-e> Yeah I was pronouncing it wrong, mentally. It's not that I've ever used it in speech...
18:26:21 <ais523> I had heard it used in other contexts earlier, so I knew how it was pronounced – but it's not like people would be likely to guess it from the spelling
18:27:59 <ais523> it reminds me of English place names, they nearly all have pronunciations that are very abbreviated compared to their spelling and would be hard to guess for a foreigner, but after a while you start to see patterns – and then a name like "Cirencester" comes along which is, unexpectedly, pronounced pretty similarly to how it is spelled and confuses everyone
18:28:17 <ais523> (compare to, e.g., "Leicester" which is pronounced "lester")
18:29:28 <int-e> why did I misspell "pronunciation"
18:29:45 <ais523> it is a hard word to spell, I had to look it up and I hardly ever have to do that
18:30:05 <ais523> in particular the spelling does not exactly match "pronounce"
18:31:11 <ais523> (I do make quite a lot of spelling errors, but the vast majority are typos rather than not knowing the correct spelling, or typing homophones because for some reason my brain works by converting words into sound and then back into letters when I type them)
18:31:26 <int-e> It's a word I've actually learned to spell though. So it's mostly sloppiness.
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18:50:56 <zzo38> I noticed that the mmap function has flags MAP_GROWSDOWN and MAP_STACK for stacks; if combining with MAP_FIXED and with assembly code, can it be used to restore the stacks? Hopefully a library can be made with handles stuff specific to instruction sets and operating systems, and the application program only needs to call the function to save the state.
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19:46:28 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138503&oldid=138390 * Ractangle * (+19)
19:52:10 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138504&oldid=138360 * Xarthan * (+236) filled out more of the language overview
20:12:02 <esolangs> [[Bitfuckery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138505&oldid=138504 * Xarthan * (+341) added aliases
20:17:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/FIsh&Chips]] to [[*python]]
20:19:40 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138508&oldid=138506 * Ractangle * (-298)
20:25:52 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138509&oldid=138508 * Ractangle * (+176)
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20:32:19 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138510&oldid=138509 * Ractangle * (+93) /* What changed */
20:34:04 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138511&oldid=138510 * Ractangle * (-20) /* What changed */
20:34:35 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138512&oldid=138511 * Ractangle * (-1)
20:37:06 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138513&oldid=138456 * Ractangle * (+72)
20:40:41 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138514&oldid=138513 * Ractangle * (+97) /* *python */
20:41:18 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138515&oldid=138514 * Ractangle * (+38) /* *python */
20:41:52 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138516&oldid=138515 * Ractangle * (+40) /* *python */
20:43:20 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138517&oldid=138516 * Ractangle * (-19) /* *python */
20:45:03 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138518&oldid=138517 * Ractangle * (+127) /* *python */
20:45:35 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138519&oldid=138518 * Ractangle * (+11) /* *python */
20:49:18 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138520&oldid=138519 * Ractangle * (+38) /* *python */
20:52:10 <esolangs> [[Blues++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138521&oldid=138471 * Faustify * (+2280)
20:53:09 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138522&oldid=138512 * Ractangle * (+79) /* What changed */
20:54:16 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138523&oldid=138522 * Ractangle * (+33)
20:54:54 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138524&oldid=138523 * Ractangle * (+8) /* What changed */
20:56:14 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138525&oldid=138520 * Ractangle * (+11) /* *python */
20:58:56 <esolangs> [[*python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138526&oldid=138524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) Categories
21:00:31 <esolangs> [[Brainhooking]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138527&oldid=138497 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) Lowercase, stub, categories
21:01:17 <esolangs> [[Brainhook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138528&oldid=138376 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) See also
21:01:45 <esolangs> [[Brainhooking]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138529&oldid=138527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) Categories
21:02:49 <esolangs> [[1066]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138530&oldid=138490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) Category
21:02:53 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138531&oldid=138525 * Ractangle * (+83) /* Python */
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21:39:31 <esolangs> [[Gd auto level]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138532 * Tommyaweosme * (+1090) Created page with "{{lowercase}} gd auto level is a two-dimensional thematic programming model made by [[user:tommyaweosme]]. == how it works == o player spawn - ground every tick the player moves forward. tick 1: o --- tick 2: o --- tick 3: o --- tick 4: -
21:40:23 <esolangs> [[Gd auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138533&oldid=138532 * Tommyaweosme * (+3) minor fixes
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22:11:08 <esolangs> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138534&oldid=114584 * Ais523 * (-1) /* See also */ remove a use of the language's name in the wrong part of a sentence
22:16:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138535&oldid=138405 * Ais523 * (+835) /* Likely b1 */ this jogged my memory a bit
22:23:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138536&oldid=138535 * Ais523 * (+104) /* Likely b1 */ clarify
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02:11:05 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138537&oldid=138450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) Category
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04:31:55 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138538&oldid=138381 * Yayimhere * (+147) /* Burn */
04:32:32 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138539&oldid=138538 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* Burn */
04:43:31 <esolangs> [[Trainhooking]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138540 * Yayimhere * (+768) Created page with "'''Trainhooking''' is [[Brainhooking]] but only ONE INSTRUCTION. its also made by [[User:Yayimhere]]. the change is: loop is gone and now the <code>+(''n'')</code> is <code>+(''n'')[''k'']</code> which will afterwards check if the cell is negative(after applying t
04:43:43 <esolangs> [[Trainhooking]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138541&oldid=138540 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* TC proof */
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04:57:02 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138542&oldid=138503 * Ractangle * (+19)
05:22:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[Gd auto level]] to [[GD auto level]]
05:25:11 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138545&oldid=138543 * Unname4798 * (-3)
05:29:26 <esolangs> [[Complex StackBeat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138546 * Ractangle * (+239) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Complex StackBeat''' is a version of [[StackBeat]] where it includes other stuff in ByteBeat created by [[User:Ractangle]] ==Syntax== {{cd|T}}:{{cd|<nowiki>||</nowiki>}} operator <br>{{cd|F}}:{{cd|<nowiki>&&</nowiki>}} operator"
05:35:06 <esolangs> [[Complex StackBeat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138547&oldid=138546 * Ractangle * (+142) /* Syntax */
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06:24:10 <Sgeo> microinstruction memory produces an instruction and the address of its successor NEXT[O-n
06:24:10 <Sgeo> This successor address may be modified by merging bits into it under control of the function
06:24:10 <Sgeo> fields of the current microinstruction. This limited branching capability makes coding more
06:24:10 <Sgeo> difficult than with a more general scheme, but not seriously so, as examples of microcode
06:24:11 <Sgeo> demonstrate. "
06:24:14 <Sgeo> https://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/alto/Alto_Hardware_Manual_Aug76.pdf
06:24:18 <Sgeo> This feels esolangy
06:31:15 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138548&oldid=138545 * Ractangle * (+62)
06:34:07 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138549&oldid=138526 * Ractangle * (+76)
06:35:28 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138550&oldid=138549 * Ractangle * (+1)
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07:27:12 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138551&oldid=138548 * Unname4798 * (-23) this isn't a language, this is a model
07:27:28 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138552&oldid=138551 * Unname4798 * (+0)
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08:09:31 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138553&oldid=138550 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Syntax */
08:09:54 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138554&oldid=138553 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Syntax */
08:10:54 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138555&oldid=138554 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Hello, world! */
08:14:36 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138556&oldid=138555 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Syntax */
08:15:19 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138557&oldid=138556 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Syntax */
08:23:37 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138558&oldid=138557 * Ractangle * (+41) /* Syntax */
08:33:34 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138559&oldid=138558 * Ractangle * (+200) /* Examples */
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09:50:09 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138560&oldid=138559 * Ractangle * (+89) /* Syntax */
09:52:38 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138561&oldid=138560 * Ractangle * (-31) /* Syntax */
10:46:15 <esolangs> [[Complex StackBeat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138562&oldid=138547 * Ractangle * (+5)
10:56:40 <wib_jonas> drat. I wrote a tsort, but it actually found a loop. now I have to modify this to work as an almost-tsort that can handle a few loops.
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11:00:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138563&oldid=138370 * None1 * (+3) /* */ i realized what i mean was the polar opposite of what i write
11:02:52 <wib_jonas> (or cheat by modifying the input, but that's not a long-term solution)
11:05:29 <esolangs> [[Numlist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138564&oldid=120173 * None1 * (-1)
11:10:29 <esolangs> [[No.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138565&oldid=126237 * None1 * (+112) /* Examples */
11:12:29 <esolangs> [[No.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138566&oldid=138565 * None1 * (+64) /* Hello, World! */
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11:45:43 <esolangs> [[Translated Aheui]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138567 * None1 * (+1609) Created page with "{{Lang|a=User:None1}}. It is [[Aheui]] but horribly translated: ==Steps== 1. Take this program (as an example): <pre> </pre> 2. Translate: Baidu: Korean -> Indonesian Microsoft: Indonesian -> Classical Chinese Baidu: Classical Chinese -> Hebrew Micr
11:47:40 <esolangs> [[Translated Aheui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138568&oldid=138567 * None1 * (-1)
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11:50:15 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138569&oldid=138458 * None1 * (+66) /* Implementations */
11:50:28 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138570&oldid=138569 * None1 * (+0) /* Implementations */
11:50:52 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138571&oldid=138459 * None1 * (+16) /* My Implementations */
11:56:32 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138572&oldid=138012 * None1 * (+66) /* Horribly translated variants */
11:56:53 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138573&oldid=138571 * None1 * (+66)
11:57:15 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138574&oldid=138573 * None1 * (+0) /* My Implementations */
11:58:42 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138575&oldid=138537 * Yayimhere * (-21) /* example programs */
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12:28:13 <esolangs> [[Rings]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138576&oldid=106997 * Ardemit * (-307) Language version 0.2.0
12:33:37 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138577&oldid=126461 * None1 * (+0) /* 16 */
12:34:28 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138578&oldid=138577 * None1 * (-11) /* 16 */
12:35:25 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138579&oldid=138578 * None1 * (+5) /* 16 */
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13:00:41 <esolangs> [[.chat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138580 * Yayimhere * (+1074) Created page with "'''.chat''' pronounced dot chat is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] combining the concepts of the node alphabet, [[Tag System]]'s, and [[Number Seventy-Four]] == memory == memory is a datastring that can hold this circular alphabet(order is preserved): <code>{A,
13:05:19 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138581&oldid=138580 * Yayimhere * (+0)
13:05:31 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138582&oldid=138581 * Yayimhere * (-1)
13:14:29 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138583&oldid=138579 * None1 * (+16) /* 20 */
13:16:41 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138584&oldid=138583 * None1 * (+0) /* Truth Machine */
13:17:11 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138585&oldid=138584 * None1 * (+0) /* 16 */ I thought it was 2000
13:24:07 <esolangs> [[ProjectEuler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138586 * None1 * (+31) Make non-userspace link to project euler
13:24:39 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138587&oldid=138585 * None1 * (+17) /* Project Euler */
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13:27:27 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138588&oldid=138587 * None1 * (+3504) /* Intepreters */
13:28:52 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138589&oldid=138588 * None1 * (+27) /* Cat Program */
13:31:36 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138590&oldid=138589 * None1 * (+12) /* Cat Program */
13:35:09 <esolangs> [[I fuck, you fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138591&oldid=138590 * None1 * (+412) /* Intepreters */
13:37:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ting Vit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138592&oldid=133333 * Xyzzy * (+585)
13:37:50 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/20]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138593&oldid=137145 * None1 * (+16) /* I fuck, you fuck */
13:37:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138594&oldid=127216 * Xyzzy * (+124)
13:40:12 <esolangs> [[VERPNL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138595 * Xyzzy * (+232) Created page with "{{Stub}}{{WIP}} VERPNL stands for Vietnamese "Extendable" Reverse Polish Notation Language. The specific meaning of "Extendable" is not specified, but the language idea and name is created 6 months ago and now I'm creating the page."
13:41:27 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138596&oldid=110822 * Xyzzy * (+88)
13:43:03 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138597&oldid=138582 * Yayimhere * (-1)
13:44:30 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138598&oldid=138597 * Yayimhere * (+45)
13:50:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Isomorphism]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138599 * Xyzzy * (+0) Created blank page
14:09:26 <esolangs> [[Rings]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138600&oldid=138576 * Ardemit * (+40) Clarified instructions are case-insensitive
14:10:57 <esolangs> [[VERPNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138601&oldid=138595 * Xyzzy * (+1431)
14:10:59 <esolangs> [[Mepytaruon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138602&oldid=94057 * Ardemit * (-222) The interpreter is no longer public
14:12:07 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138603&oldid=138596 * Xyzzy * (+97)
14:12:38 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138604&oldid=138603 * Xyzzy * (+6)
14:13:49 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138605&oldid=138598 * Yayimhere * (+13)
14:21:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:VERPNL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138606 * Xyzzy * (+120) Created page with "You are free to contribrute to this page --~~~~"
14:22:11 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138607&oldid=138605 * Yayimhere * (+61)
14:22:55 <esolangs> [[VERPNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138608&oldid=138601 * Xyzzy * (+153)
14:22:59 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138609&oldid=138607 * Yayimhere * (+45)
14:23:55 <wWwwW> why is xkcd and esolangs involved so much???
14:29:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Scratch is dumb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138610&oldid=133983 * Xyzzy * (+204)
14:34:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Scratch is dumb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138611&oldid=138610 * None1 * (+351)
14:35:55 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138612&oldid=138609 * Yayimhere * (+1)
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14:50:54 <wWwwW> what esiolang should i make?
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15:53:27 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138613&oldid=138542 * Ractangle * (+12)
15:55:39 <esolangs> [[Trainhooking]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138614&oldid=138541 * Ractangle * (+57)
15:55:51 <esolangs> [[Trainhooking]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138615&oldid=138614 * Ractangle * (+0) /* is this the smallest BF minimilazation? */
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16:32:24 <esolangs> [[ArnoldC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138616&oldid=102554 * Ractangle * (+113) /* Conventions */
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17:39:35 <wWwwW> hey guys i made dis:
17:39:36 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/.chat
17:52:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138617 * Unname4798 * (+24) Created page with "pre { overflow:auto; }"
17:53:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138618&oldid=138617 * Unname4798 * (+0) Unname4798 changed the content model of the page [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] from "wikitext" to "CSS"
17:53:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * Unname4798 * Unname4798 changed the content model of the page [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] from "wikitext" to "CSS"
17:53:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[User talk:Unname4798/vector.css]] to [[User:Unname4798/vector.css]]
17:58:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PiggyPigCute * New user account
18:02:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138621&oldid=138130 * PiggyPigCute * (+197) hi
18:02:47 <b_jonas> stupid question, why does Linux have an mlock2 system call, why isn't the interface just new advise types to madvise?
18:04:02 <esolangs> [[User:PiggyPigCute]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138622 * PiggyPigCute * (+161) that's me :)
18:08:49 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138623 * Yayimhere * (+910) Created page with "'''2 Player''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its a 2d esolang with two pointers: the data and code pointer. they both move starting going left in the upper left corner of the program == commands == {| class="wikitable" |+ commands |- ! command !! descrip
18:19:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138624&oldid=138613 * Yayimhere * (+15)
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18:33:13 <esolangs> [[User:PiggyPig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138625&oldid=129299 * PiggyPigCute * (+15) i'm the second account of PiggyPig :)
18:33:21 -!- leah2 has joined.
18:34:01 <esolangs> [[FallDown]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138626 * PiggyPigCute * (+1773) Page Creation
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18:46:29 <korvo> b_jonas: Because Google keeps paying for new syscalls instead of adopting memory-safe programming practices.
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18:51:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/bat unresponsive]] to [[(x]]
19:03:09 <b_jonas> korvo: wait, is that like when CPU manufacturers design instruction set extensions such that they can say a high number in marketing for how many new instructions they support, or calculators that have "242 functions" written on their packaging material?
19:06:44 <esolangs> [[(x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138629&oldid=138627 * Ractangle * (-140)
19:10:09 <korvo> b_jonas: Wow, that's an interesting analogy. I'll have to think about that, thanks.
19:11:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[(x]] to [[User:Ractangle/(x]]
19:12:36 <int-e> Hmm, tangential to that... I'm wondering whether AVX-512 was introduced so that after switching to 64 byte cache lines, you once again have operations that operate on a whole cache line's worth of data at a time.
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19:16:13 <b_jonas> I think it was introduced so that by the time we have CPUs with execution units 64 bytes wide we already have the compilers and other tools to support them working. it's better than releasing new CPUs that perform twice as fast in theoretical measurement but no programs that you'll ever see use that extra capability.
19:44:16 <esolangs> [[FallDown]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138632&oldid=138626 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) Categories
19:46:31 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138633&oldid=138623 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) Categories
19:47:49 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138634&oldid=138389 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Esolangs */
19:49:09 <esolangs> [[.chat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138635&oldid=138612 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) Categories
19:50:43 <esolangs> [[Trainhooking]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138636&oldid=138615 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+138) Categories
19:53:44 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138637&oldid=138552 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Categories
19:53:45 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138638&oldid=137853 * Ractangle * (+61) /* Syntax */
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19:58:40 <esolangs> [[(*)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138640&oldid=132673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+135) Categories
20:01:09 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138641&oldid=138638 * Ractangle * (+88)
20:03:34 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138642&oldid=138531 * Ractangle * (-171)
20:03:48 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138643&oldid=138642 * Ractangle * (+171) /* CLFCE */
20:06:32 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138644&oldid=138643 * Ractangle * (+115) /* Fungeoids */
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20:38:56 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138645&oldid=138641 * Ractangle * (+83) /* Syntax */
20:47:11 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138646&oldid=138645 * Ractangle * (+72) /* Examples */
20:47:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138647&oldid=138646 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Syntax */
20:50:30 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138648&oldid=138125 * Ractangle * (+89) /* Hot */
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20:59:51 <esolangs> [[Complex StackBeat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138649&oldid=138639 * Ractangle * (-22) /* Syntax */
21:00:08 <esolangs> [[Complex StackBeat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138650&oldid=138649 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Syntax */
21:16:15 <esolangs> [[RESOI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138651&oldid=106050 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) Deadlink, category
21:33:00 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138652&oldid=138637 * Tommyaweosme * (+3) grrrr GRRRR WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY ARTICLES?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?
21:33:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Tommyaweosme * moved [[GD auto level]] to [[Gd auto level]] over redirect: Misspelled title: "accidental" move with correct capitalizations
21:33:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Tommyaweosme * Tommyaweosme deleted redirect [[Gd auto level]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[GD auto level]]"
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23:33:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:C@]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138655&oldid=137558 * BoundedBeans * (+129)
23:33:52 <zzo38> Is there a way with the "openssl" command to connect and send a client hello message and then display the server's messages and extensions but then to send an error code and not begin the application protocol? I will just want to see what extensions and other features the server will send, e.g. if it requests a client certificate, what parameters are included in the request.
23:39:01 <zzo38> If it requests a client certificate and what the parameters are, is specifically what I intended to check.
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23:55:29 <zzo38> It only says "No client certificate CA names sent". I know the server accepts client certificates (and it accepts self-signed certificates, so a certificate authority is not needed), but what I want to know is what key types and signature types the server claims are acceptable.
23:57:41 <Sgeo> I have no idea how to use Smalltalk-72
23:57:50 <Sgeo> There's a manual, I should probably... read it
23:58:51 <Sgeo> I'm still boggling at the idea of just... having different CPU architectures for different languages, and making the CPU emulate different ones, and... switching OSes to a rewritten version just to run a program in a different language
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01:32:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138657&oldid=138656 * Ais523 * (-408) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/138656|138656]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) offtopic, and trying to communciate with banned users is potentially directly counterproductive
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01:36:02 <esolangs> [[Blip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138658&oldid=129298 * Ais523 * (+0) fix formatting apparently that template combination is broken if they're written in the wrong order
01:37:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]]": old-fashioned revision delete
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01:39:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep [edit=sysop] (indefinite)[move=sysop] (indefinite)]]": talk page of banned user, currently being misused
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03:53:03 <korvo> Sgeo: Biological metaphors might help. Kay was fascinated by what's known as the "central dogma" of genetics: a strand of DNA is encoded instructions to a certain kind of protein.
03:53:48 <korvo> It turns out that there's more than one encoding and also that DNA isn't the only encoding medium. I imagine Kay was thinking of the same sort of change-of-encoding situation.
05:27:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Unname4798 * moved [[Gd auto level]] to [[GD auto level]] over redirect: Correct captalisation
05:27:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Unname4798 * Unname4798 deleted redirect [[GD auto level]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Gd auto level]]"
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05:32:18 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138662&oldid=138660 * Unname4798 * (+0) correct captalisation, punctuatiom
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06:00:48 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138663&oldid=138647 * Ractangle * (-9)
06:32:46 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138664&oldid=138036 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
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07:00:53 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138665&oldid=138663 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Truth-machine */
07:01:25 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138666&oldid=138648 * Ractangle * (-2) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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07:07:28 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138667&oldid=138665 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Examples */
07:11:10 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138668&oldid=138667 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Disan Count */
07:13:38 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138669&oldid=138644 * Ractangle * (+8) /* C */
07:18:14 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138670&oldid=138669 * Ractangle * (+150) /* C/C++ */
07:19:11 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138671&oldid=138670 * Ractangle * (+32) /* C# */
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08:59:10 <wib_jonas> HTML question. Do browsers these days have some built-in CSS stuff to make the column widths of a table resizable by the user, such as by dragging the borders in the header row, or is this only available as client-side scripts?
09:02:02 <wib_jonas> hmm, there's a CSS property called resize. I'll have to test that.
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09:38:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138672&oldid=138621 * B4k3d * (+262)
09:40:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:B4K3D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138673 * B4k3d * (+39) Created page with "Hi can't wait to sumbit my eso-slang ;D"
09:45:04 <esolangs> [[User:B4k3d]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138674 * B4k3d * (+112) Created page with "> Refining syntax > formal specification > custom interpreter or compiler for programs > will provide examples"
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10:01:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Unname4798 * moved [[GD auto level]] to [[GD Auto level]]
10:02:12 <esolangs> [[Gd auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138677&oldid=138661 * Unname4798 * (+0) fix double redirect
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10:58:08 <esolangs> [[User:B4K3D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138678 * B4k3d * (+2) Created page with "hi"
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11:37:11 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138679&oldid=131181 * None1 * (+159)
11:38:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * None1 * moved [[Project Euler]] to [[Project Euler (language)]]: Move project euler language to another page so that project euler problems can have its page properly
11:38:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * None1 * moved [[Talk:Project Euler/1]] to [[Talk:Project Euler (language)/1]]: Move project euler language to another page so that project euler problems can have its page properly
11:41:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * None1 * moved [[Talk:Project Euler (language)/1]] to [[Talk:Project Euler/1]] over redirect: Move accidentally moved page back
11:41:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * None1 * None1 deleted redirect [[Talk:Project Euler/1]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:Project Euler (language)/1]]"
11:42:11 <esolangs> [[Project Euler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138686&oldid=138681 * None1 * (-7) Changed redirect target from [[Project Euler (language)]] to [[User:ProjectEuler]]
11:43:04 <esolangs> [[Scratch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138687 * None1 * (+26) Redirected page to [[User:Scratch]]
11:43:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Project Euler (language)/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138688&oldid=138685 * None1 * (-34) Blanked the page
11:45:36 <esolangs> [[User:ProjectEuler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138689&oldid=125477 * None1 * (+75)
11:46:55 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138690&oldid=138679 * None1 * (+26)
11:47:55 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138691&oldid=138690 * None1 * (+86)
11:55:27 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138692&oldid=138691 * None1 * (+501)
11:56:18 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138693&oldid=138692 * None1 * (+20) /* Parts of a pinyin */
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12:12:29 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138694&oldid=138693 * None1 * (+681) /* Parts of a pinyin */
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13:16:20 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138695&oldid=138671 * None1 * (+59) /* C/C++ */
13:18:22 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138696&oldid=138695 * None1 * (+64) /* C# */ C# has document comments (I think they are almost useless anyway)
13:21:08 <esolangs> [[Comment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138697&oldid=138696 * None1 * (+13) /* /// */
13:24:45 <esolangs> [[Expansion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138698&oldid=123856 * None1 * (-7) /* A+B Problem */ Formatting does not work in pre
13:25:10 <esolangs> [[Comment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138699&oldid=138697 * None1 * (+119) /* /// */
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14:12:30 <esolangs> [[BIO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138700&oldid=85448 * Yayimhere * (-13) if there is a non userpage it should be linked to
14:14:55 <esolangs> [[GD Auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138701&oldid=138675 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) stop it now unname4798
14:15:54 <esolangs> [[Gd auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138702&oldid=138677 * Tommyaweosme * (-27) Blanked the page
14:18:00 <esolangs> [[GD Auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138703&oldid=138701 * Tommyaweosme * (-1131) Replaced content with "{{Lowercase}} im sorry, you must mean [[gd auto level|this]]"
14:18:11 <esolangs> [[Gd auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138704&oldid=138702 * Tommyaweosme * (+1191)
14:21:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Scratch is dumb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138705&oldid=138611 * Xyzzy * (+405)
14:22:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ting Vit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138706&oldid=138592 * Xyzzy * (+152)
14:25:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:5iasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138707&oldid=137331 * Xyzzy * (+133)
14:25:21 <esolangs> [[Akdrfsbathnede knem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138708&oldid=135677 * Qawtykit * (+42)
14:26:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:ETA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138709 * Xyzzy * (+166) Created page with "suprised no one has talked yet --~~~~ - the person behind the instruction table on this page"
14:26:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:5iasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138710&oldid=138707 * Yayimhere * (+136)
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14:28:31 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138711&oldid=136214 * Xyzzy * (+78)
14:39:53 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138712&oldid=138711 * PkmnQ * (-78) Answer: Both links were removed on July 3, 2024
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14:45:19 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138713&oldid=138668 * Xyzzy * (+882)
14:45:45 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138714&oldid=138713 * Xyzzy * (+19)
14:45:52 <esolangs> [[Akdrfsbathnede knem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138715&oldid=138708 * Qawtykit * (+2)
14:46:18 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138716&oldid=138714 * Xyzzy * (+22)
14:46:38 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138717&oldid=138716 * Xyzzy * (-2)
14:50:57 <wWwwW> i had an idea to make a esolang based on turnabelism
14:54:04 <korvo> Sure. Have you seen the various notations that have been invented in the past couple decades?
14:54:43 <wWwwW> its a pretty weird idea
14:55:25 <wWwwW> you have too tapes or whatever
14:55:31 <wWwwW> with looping marks n' stuff
14:55:58 <wWwwW> and recors onto another tape
14:59:40 <wWwwW> and if there becomes an over record(so we dont stop in time) we will rterecord
15:07:52 <korvo> wWwwW: One notation is DJ Radar's notation; I gather that it's used to teach at Berklee but can't find any details online.
15:07:58 <korvo> Another is S-notation: https://www.tenor-conference.org/proceedings/2016/07_Sonnenfeld_tenor2016.pdf
15:09:11 <wWwwW> i would like to make mi own(cuz i hate myself) but oh well
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15:10:46 <korvo> wWwwW: Well, what's the goal?
15:11:59 <korvo> It might surprise you to learn that many of us have specific aims when creating new languages. For example, I do PLT research and I call some projects "esoteric" so that I don't have to argue about what's "practical" or "marketable".
15:12:33 <korvo> Several folks are working on fundamentals of computability theory. Some folks want to make languages that are difficult to use. Some folks are making art.
15:12:40 <wWwwW> my goal is to have something to do cuz im always bored cuz im a loner:(
15:12:56 <wWwwW> my goal is to keep myself sane ig:)
15:13:26 <korvo> Oh! Try Touhou. You will not be bored but you might lose some sanity.
15:14:00 <wWwwW> oh no im not a gamer
15:14:08 <wWwwW> also i cant play it cuz i use old puter
15:14:09 <korvo> There's nothing wrong with recreational conlangs, but keep in mind that languages are for *communicating*. It might not be the best solo activity.
15:14:46 <wWwwW> for me esolangs are
15:15:38 <wWwwW> but non esolang's are like that yea
15:17:40 <korvo> No worries. As long as you're having fun and following community guidelines, we invite folks to make art and experiment.
15:19:57 * sprout idly wonders what a recreational conlang is
15:35:02 <wWwwW> anyway is my esolang idea good korvo
15:35:09 <wWwwW> and can i get some help
15:36:01 <korvo> wWwwW: That's why I asked what your goal is.
15:36:39 <wWwwW> well now you know ig:)
15:38:25 <sprout> I don't see why an esolang would need a goal?
16:04:39 <sprout> wWwwW: my only advice is to start with something tiny
16:05:20 <sprout> since it probably won't be used by anyone it's usually not worth the effort to invest a lot of time into a language
16:06:36 <wWwwW> time doest matter to me lol
16:38:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138718&oldid=138717 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Erase data in a cell */ Header, formatting
16:44:09 <wWwwW> what would happen ona computer if you fr just adeed two things that are underfined together?
16:44:12 <wWwwW> like just did that
16:44:16 <wWwwW> with no care in the world
16:44:24 <wWwwW> WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?
16:49:51 <korvo> How do you have something undefined on a computer?
16:50:18 <wWwwW> like lets say python where you do a + b but none of them are defined??
16:50:25 <wWwwW> BUT YOU JUST LET IT HAPPEN
16:50:36 <wWwwW> without gigving an error?
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17:24:55 <wWwwW> im so bored idk what to do
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17:54:00 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138719&oldid=138718 * Ractangle * (-102) /* Interpreter */
17:55:04 <korvo> wWwwW: It might be hard to think about, but technically a CPU never has undefined behavior. Similarly, every Python name refers to some object, and Python's VM defines their interactions.
17:55:30 <wWwwW> so what would happen
17:55:35 <wWwwW> wouæd i just get garbage?
17:55:46 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138720&oldid=138719 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Syntax */
17:56:19 <korvo> wWwwW: I'm asking you how the situation arises in the first place.
17:59:54 <wWwwW> well i said. but now when you say that
18:00:00 <wWwwW> it wouldnt be undefined
18:00:44 <korvo> In Python, it's not possible to get into this situation without manually writing bytecode. The VM will LOAD_FAST both `a` and `b`, then BINARY_OP them with `+`.
18:01:17 <korvo> The typical CPU can't really do this either. If you ask it to ADD two registers, then it'll do that regardless of whether you put values into those registers.
18:02:06 <korvo> When folks say that a behavior is undefined, they are usually being *epistemic*, not *ontic*. They're talking about *what we know* about the CPU, not *what it actually does*.
18:03:14 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138721&oldid=138699 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Languages with halting instructions/infinite loops */
18:05:05 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138722&oldid=138721 * Ractangle * (+35) /* ////Thue/Expansion */
18:07:05 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138723&oldid=138722 * Ractangle * (+9) /* ////Thue/Expansion/A=B */
18:08:37 <wWwwW> and another question
18:08:39 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138724&oldid=138723 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Languages with halting instructions/infinite loops */
18:10:25 <wWwwW> and that is what if you just let the CPU do whatever
18:12:07 <zzo38> I think some instructions in 6502 are unstable, although this is different from the undefined behaviour in programming languages such as C.
18:17:22 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138725&oldid=138724 * Ractangle * (+161) /* ////Thue/Expansion/A=B */
18:19:00 <korvo> wWwwW: Then you get what we call a "weird machine": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weird_machine
18:19:19 <korvo> Even here, though, we see that the CPU tends to enter stable "weird states" which are programmable with "weird instructions".
18:20:02 <wWwwW> i would like to see a esolang like dis
18:20:42 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138726&oldid=138720 * Ractangle * (+66)
18:21:57 <wWwwW> imma make a weirdmachie rn
18:26:24 <wWwwW> how would you do it?
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18:34:52 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138727&oldid=138726 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Interpreter */
18:35:11 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138728&oldid=138727 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Interpreter */
18:36:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Triforce]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138729 * Yayimhere * (+124) Created page with "a space is not a triangle(lol) -x-~~~~"
18:42:42 <korvo> wWwwW83: Weird machines usually arise from security vulnerabilities. To start building an understanding, maybe look up heap-spraying attacks in Web browsers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heap_spraying
18:43:19 <korvo> The instructions normally would be interpreted as allocating objects in a loop. But they are actually weird instructions for confusing the underlying garbage collector.
18:44:50 <wWwwW83> wouldnt that be [-] for currentm cell in bf(lol?)
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19:10:52 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138730&oldid=138728 * Ractangle * (+229) /* Examples */
19:11:02 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138731&oldid=138730 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
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19:12:57 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138732&oldid=136081 * Ractangle * (+242) /* Homespring */
19:18:52 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138733&oldid=138731 * Ractangle * (+114) /* Examples */
19:19:01 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138734&oldid=138733 * Ractangle * (+1) /* =Move data from a cell to an another cell */
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19:50:42 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138735&oldid=138734 * Ractangle * (+75) /* Truth-machine */
19:54:07 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138736&oldid=138735 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
19:54:13 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138737&oldid=138736 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
19:54:30 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138738&oldid=138737 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Hello, world! */
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20:29:45 <esolangs> [['interbasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138739&oldid=136454 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Truth-machine */
20:32:00 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138740&oldid=135022 * Ractangle * (-8)
20:33:16 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138741&oldid=138740 * Ractangle * (+1)
20:34:17 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138742&oldid=137710 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Syntax */
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21:25:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[GD Auto level]] to [[Gd auto level]]: history merge to revert pagemove vandalism
21:25:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Gd auto level]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[GD Auto level]]"
21:25:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * undeleted "[[Gd auto level]]": history merge
21:25:58 <esolangs> [[Gd auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138744&oldid=138743 * Ais523 * (+1131) set top revision after history merge
21:26:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[Gd auto level [move=sysop] (indefinite)]]": move warring lock this at the name the creator of the language chose
21:27:14 <esolangs> [[GD auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138746&oldid=138676 * Ais523 * (+0) fix double redirect after move war
21:30:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138747&oldid=138563 * Ais523 * (+654) /* gd auto level */ new section
21:38:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138748&oldid=138277 * Ais523 * (+1107) warning for move warring, and a reminder about what changes are acceptable to pages about esolangs other people created
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21:42:02 <ais523> <korvo> wWwwW: It might be hard to think about, but technically a CPU never has undefined behavior. ← I'm not convinced I agree – many CPUs have instructions documented as having behaviour that isn't defined in all circumstances, and in some cases (e.g. the 6502) the behaviour is not consistent in practice either
21:43:46 <ais523> although there are also cases where the behaviour is documented as undefined, but is in fact 100% consistent, and the manufacturer has kept it consistent for compatibility reasons even though it would be more efficient to change it
21:44:20 <ais523> e.g. on x86/x86-64, BSF on a register holds 0 (documented as undefined by Intel, and as leaving the register unchanged by AMD – Intel's behaviour in practice is the same as AMD's)
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21:44:51 <ais523> but there are plenty of cases where the behaviour depends on analog effects, and those in turn can depend on noise
21:46:43 <ais523> also I think most CPUs can't get into a state where a register doesn't have a value – but it's quite common to get "open bus" behaviour when older CPUs attempt to read a memory address that doesn't correspond to physical memory
21:47:44 <ais523> which typically returns some value that was recently read or written using the same wires, or some default value if they weren't recently used, but in between you get a mix and the length of time it takes to go from one state to the other varies based on analog factors
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23:13:38 <b_jonas> Yeah. Also, not undefined behavior, but x86 has a bunch of cases for old instructions where the documentation says that some or all of the arithmetic FLAGS bits are left with an undefined value. This can happen with at least AND, OR, XOR, TEST; SHR, SAL, SAR, ROL, ROR, RCL, RCR; MUL, IMUL, DIV, IDIV; BT, BTR, BTS, BTC; BSF, BSR; AAA, AAS, AAD, AAM, DAA, DAS. That's almost every old instruction that can
23:13:44 <b_jonas> modify the arithmetic bits in the flags, except for ADD, ADC, SUB, SBB, CMP, INC, DEC; CMC, CLC, STC; SAHF, and the ones that load the entire FLAGS or EFLAGS. Newer instructions usually avoid this sort of undefined result.
23:14:45 <ais523> I actually don't know what those instructions do to the flags in practice, nor whether or not it's consistent
23:15:27 <ais523> BSF leaving the register unchanged is an interesting problem for compiler writers, though, because if you choose to rely on that behaviour you can make the asm considerably simpler and less branchy
23:15:35 <ais523> but, it's relying on UB
23:15:46 <ais523> LLVM chooses not to rely on the UB, at least when compiling Rust
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23:19:57 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, that is UB? I thought that was documented, but I also thought it was usually not worth to use on modern CPUs, which specifically add a prefixed variant for BSF and BSR with very different opcodes that does not do that to avoid the extra dependency on the old value of the register
23:21:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Scratch is dumb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138749&oldid=138705 * None1 * (+266)
23:22:48 <b_jonas> or do you mean using the undefined behavior offered by the source language (eg. C) low-level function?
23:22:50 <ais523> b_jonas: it's UB on Intel but not AMD, according to the docs
23:23:22 <ais523> on modern CPUs, you just use lzcnt and tzcnt, yes, but current compilers aren't by default generating code that assumes they're available
23:23:53 <b_jonas> huh, you're right, the Intel docs says that the destination register gains undefined value after BSF and BSR with 0 input operand
23:24:26 <ais523> although, they get interpreted as their older equivalent on older CPUs, which is useful in the case of tzcnt because the results are the same for all arguments except 0
23:24:46 <ais523> so you can just set the result register to 64 and then tzcnt, and you get the right result on both new and old CPUs
23:25:02 <ais523> this doesn't work with lzcnt becaue the return values are different
23:25:33 <b_jonas> it doesn't work with LZCNT? interesting, I never noticed that
23:26:03 <ais523> because LZCNT counts 0 = most significant and the old instruction counts 0 = least significant
23:26:18 <ais523> so you can't interpret the return value without knowing which instruction you used
23:26:49 <b_jonas> when were these instructions added? between SSE4.2 and AVX with the marketing bit-manipulation instructions like BLSI? or earlier?
23:28:11 <ais523> it isn't obvious because they have their own feature flag, so it might not even be monotonically increasing
23:29:02 <ais523> oh, Wikipedia says it's part of BMI1 and just has the feature flags done weirdly
23:29:49 <ais523> oh, and AMD got there first
23:29:55 <ais523> which nearly *always* screws up the feature flags
23:30:31 <ais523> or, well, LZCNT is by AMD and TZCNT by Intel, just to make things as thoroughly confusing as possible
23:32:18 <ais523> so the ABM flag (which AMD invented) reflects LZCNT support, and BMI1 reflects TZCNT support, on both AMD and Intel processors; but all Intel processors that set either set both
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23:33:39 <b_jonas> it looks like TZCNT and LZCNT were added roughly at the same time as AVX2, so later than I thought
23:34:33 <ais523> Intel added them at the same time as the BMI2 instructions (which include the select operator from INTERCAL)
23:37:08 <b_jonas> and that was around AVX2, rather than before AVX like I implied earlier. ok.
23:37:52 <ais523> AVX confuses me because I can never remember which instructions it does
23:37:54 <b_jonas> then it's not that surprising that compilers can often still not use it if you don't specifically target a later processor
23:38:19 <ais523> IIRC it was a more efficient API and more consistent encodings for the existing SSE instructions, plus a few 256-bit instructions but not very many of them?
23:38:39 <ais523> hmm, is there an equivalent of caniuse.com but for processor instructions?
23:39:09 <ais523> I'm mostly interested in whether targeting AVX2/BMI2 by default is reasonable nowadays or whether there are likely to be users who don't have support
23:39:17 <b_jonas> what do you mean? AVX contains vector instructions similar to SSE2, but they're encoded in a very different way, and the floating-point ones can be either 32 byte wide (on the newly introduced YMM registers) or 16 bytes wide, while the integer ones can only be 16 byte wide, right?
23:39:39 <ais523> oh, is it just a float/int split?
23:39:50 <ais523> I thought it implemented a few of the instructions at 32 but most at 16
23:40:28 <ais523> this might explain why LLVM prefers to use floating-point instructions for memcpy, if they were added before the equivalent integer instructions
23:40:31 <b_jonas> it also has lots of new vector instructions for integers, but I think the 32 bytes is just floating points
23:41:28 <ais523> although, I think the general performance advice with vector registers is "you can use the 16-byte ones for occasional use without trouble but the 32-byte ones only help if you use them heavily"
23:41:45 <b_jonas> but this later got fixed by AVX2 which I think added 32 byte long versions for all the integer vector AVX instructions (except that some of the shuffling instructions shuffle only within a 16 byte block and there are new possibly slower shuffler instructions for the full 32 bytes wide)
23:42:21 <ais523> calling conventions for AVX2 are a mess – it doesn't mix well performance-wise with SSE-encoded vector instructions
23:42:25 <b_jonas> also all the AVX vector instructions have a name starting with V and they clear the top half of the YMM registers even if they only do a 16 byte operation -- the existing SSE2 instructions couldn't be modified this way because of ABI compatibility
23:43:02 <b_jonas> yes, but I think that's s/calling conventions for AVX2/calling conventions for AVX/
23:43:25 <ais523> I think the ABI requires a vzeroupper before calling or returning from a function, if you use the high half of a vector
23:43:40 <ais523> so that if the other function uses SSE there isn't a performance penalty
23:44:26 <b_jonas> yes, but this is becoming less of a problem on later processors
23:45:49 <b_jonas> the ABI incompatibility is real and can't be fixed without defining a whole new incompatible ABI for which you have to recompile every user-level library, but the penalty almost never applies to recent CPUs because the processors are better optimized to handle this
23:51:16 <b_jonas> also AVX adds some new floating-point vector instructions, and some non-vector instructions, and it does *not* add many new integer vector arithmetic instructions despite what I said
23:55:24 <b_jonas> the new integer vector instructions are added by SSE3 and SSE4_2 (which precede AVX) and then AVX512, with only a few in AVX and AVX2
23:55:30 <b_jonas> or at least few that I care about
23:59:34 <ais523> <b_jonas> the ABI incompatibility is real and can't be fixed without defining a whole new incompatible ABI for which you have to recompile every user-level library, but the penalty almost never applies to recent CPUs because the processors are better optimized to handle this ← IIRC the modern processors are actually worse-optimised to handle all the combinations, some optimisations were removed to simplify the situations where they weren't neeed
00:00:02 <ais523> I think modern processors are slow if you use leave a value in the top half of the YMM registers and then use SSE instructions, older ones had a special case for that
00:00:20 <ais523> but, modern compilers know that doing that is slow, and take care to not leave a value in the top half
00:01:18 <ais523> I remember being disappointed that AVX and AVX2 don't have any multiplications bigger than a 32-to-64-bit widening multiply
00:01:38 <b_jonas> to be honest a lot of the newly added instructions feel weird to me, like they're there either for marketing to boost the number of mnemonics, or to help beginner programmers who don't understand enough programming to use the smaller but versatile SSE/SSE2/SSE3/SSE4_2 instruction set. not all instructions are like that, some are genuinely useful new features, just a lot of them.
00:01:43 <ais523> if I need to do 64-bit multiplies, it is not even worth vectorising, as I'd have to use the entire vector unit just to do the individual parts of the multiply
00:02:16 <ais523> b_jonas: I think they're there for marketing but for a different reason: companies paying Intel to add really specific commands that would help some particular project they're working on
00:02:23 <ais523> and Intel not caring that they're useless for everyone else
00:02:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, unless you can use double float multiplications
00:03:24 <ais523> float multiply on integers only gives you 53 or 54 bits, right? so that's worse than 32-to-64 widening multiply unless your arguments are very unbalanced
00:03:42 <ais523> (assuming a double-precision float)
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00:05:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but only if you want the whole integer result. sometimes you'll want only the high bits.
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00:06:39 <b_jonas> though maybe that doesn't happen that often when 32 bits aren't enough and you aren't already working with double floats
00:10:24 <b_jonas> but I think the double float multiply can be useful for geometric distorting high bit depth (between 10 and 16 bits inclusive, such as raw from camera sensor) pixmap images without losing much precision
00:14:07 <b_jonas> (well not raw camera sensor really, but after debayering)\
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00:19:58 <b_jonas> I use a keyboard with a 101/104 key style enter key at home, and a keyboard with a 102/105 key style enter key at work. You have to press enter at somewhat different places between the two. This results in me often pressing enter wrong, and *in both directions* that often results in pressing the backslash key by accident togethr with enter. This is probably the closest I have to a true "walked uphill
00:24:23 <ais523> hmm, the UK keyboard layout has a confusing Enter key placement, but backslash is on the entire opposite end of the keyboard
00:24:51 <ais523> Return and # together occupy the space that would be occupied entirely by Return on a US keyboard
00:25:32 <ais523> although, if you press # on a keyboard that's physically a UK keyboard, but set to a US keyboard layout, you get \ (which is a little weird – I would have expected it to act as Return)
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01:45:34 <Sgeo> Smalltalk-72 is... interesting. It's not very Smalltalky, it's more like.... Smalltalk + fexprs or forth or... whatever allows functions to parse whatever comes next
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02:12:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138750&oldid=138748 * Tommyaweosme * (+168) /* Move warring */
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02:34:14 <korvo> ais523, b_jonas: I agree with all your points. I was hoping to show wwwww that, when it comes to programming machines, you can't really set the machine to an undefined state, only a state you don't know much about.
02:34:46 <korvo> Like, the entire reason why programming is so difficult is because no matter what you do, all you can really give the computer is a pile of details, each one perfectly observed.
02:35:12 <korvo> Or to paraphrase the classic film Anchorman, the computer will read *exactly* what you tell it to read.
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03:24:42 <esolangs> [[Triforce]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138751&oldid=35497 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) Categories
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04:31:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:1L AOI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138752&oldid=23348 * Gggfr * (+188) /* No null output? */
04:34:44 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138753&oldid=134577 * Gggfr * (+39)
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04:39:41 <ipadwwwww> is dis a gud esolang? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xⁿxₙ
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05:15:10 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138754 * Gggfr * (+720) Created page with "'''Solve for x''' is a esolang that yet you cant program in. this is becuase Solve for x is a esolang that you must solve for. == properties == (from now on i will be saying x) these are the properties of x * there is only one [[Quine]] for x but infinite [[Narcissist
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05:17:21 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138755&oldid=138754 * Yayimhere * (+36)
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06:36:20 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138756&oldid=138624 * Ractangle * (+18)
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07:56:17 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138757&oldid=138440 * Ractangle * (+0)
07:56:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] to [[Input hello world or else:/the file in question]]
07:56:54 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138760&oldid=138486 * Ractangle * (+0)
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09:31:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138761&oldid=138747 * Unname4798 * (+250)
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10:38:39 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138762&oldid=138738 * Ractangle * (+59) /* Hello, world! */
10:39:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138763&oldid=138732 * Ractangle * (+59) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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11:58:22 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138764&oldid=137211 * Ractangle * (-50) /* Waretel BASIC */
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12:17:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck code generation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138765&oldid=125035 * Heathcorp * (+17) Add Mastermind link to languages that compile to brainfuck
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12:56:04 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138766&oldid=138762 * Ractangle * (+73) /* Move data from a cell to an another cell */
12:57:33 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138767&oldid=138407 * Ractangle * (+90) /* Headache (lang that compiles to brainfuck) */
12:58:19 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138768&oldid=138767 * Ractangle * (-2) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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13:32:29 <wWwwW> can YOU solve for x? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Solve_for_x
13:33:13 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138769&oldid=138755 * Yayimhere * (+47)
13:37:07 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138770&oldid=138769 * Yayimhere * (+14)
13:40:55 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138771&oldid=138770 * Yayimhere * (+49)
13:43:11 <esolangs> [[Solve for x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138772&oldid=138771 * Yayimhere * (-866) Blanked the page
13:44:19 <esolangs> [[Ironlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138773&oldid=135125 * Froginstarch * (+84) /* Instructions */
13:45:33 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138774 * Yayimhere * (+911) Created page with "'''Final Word Of The Day''' is a esolang that yet you cant program in. this is becuase Solve for x is a esolang that you must solve for. it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]] == properties == (from now on i will be saying x to represent Final Word Of The D
13:45:48 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138775&oldid=138774 * Yayimhere * (+10)
13:47:38 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138776&oldid=138756 * Yayimhere * (+10)
13:52:15 <wWwwW> can YOU solve for x? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
13:55:12 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138777&oldid=138775 * Yayimhere * (+34)
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14:27:22 <wWwwW> i wonder if anybody can tho...
14:29:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138778&oldid=136413 * Yayimhere * (+151)
14:30:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138779&oldid=138778 * Yayimhere * (+2)
14:30:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138780&oldid=138779 * Yayimhere * (+19)
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14:41:31 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138781&oldid=128753 * Ractangle * (-84) /* :] */
14:41:39 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138782&oldid=138781 * Ractangle * (+85)
14:43:44 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138783&oldid=138766 * Ractangle * (-14) /* Interpreter */
14:44:59 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138784&oldid=138782 * Ractangle * (+70) /* Brainfuck+2 */
14:45:23 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138785&oldid=138784 * Ractangle * (-69) Wrong place
14:45:34 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138786&oldid=138785 * Ractangle * (+69) There
14:57:22 <esolangs> [[Seclusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138787&oldid=118684 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
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15:13:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:SubI machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138788 * Yayimhere * (+160) Created page with "delete TC tag while its not prooven bro. i will do it if you dont [-~~~~-]"
15:21:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Graypinkfurball * New user account
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15:40:51 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138789&oldid=138404 * Ractangle * (+43) /* G# */
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15:45:25 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138790&oldid=137592 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Hexdump */
15:47:30 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138791&oldid=138789 * Yayimhere * (-125) /* G# */ its no a unary looping counter
15:50:13 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138792&oldid=138791 * Yayimhere * (-44) /* How dare you fuck the brain */ also not a looping counter since its not unary
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15:59:26 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138793&oldid=134005 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
15:59:46 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138794&oldid=138792 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* REG.TYPE = STR TRUE */
16:07:18 <wWwwW> its kinda boring on the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day page
16:07:27 <wWwwW> its jyst the properties
16:07:38 <wWwwW> so can i get help finding a eso,.ang that works
16:15:28 <korvo> wWwwW: What will you do with it?
16:15:54 <wWwwW> to make it interesting
16:17:13 <korvo> wWwwW: Sure, code, but code *what*? What do you want to express? What do you want to communicate? What do you want your art to mean?
16:19:39 <wWwwW> i want my art to mean:
16:19:40 <wWwwW> i think many things are interesting
16:19:40 <wWwwW> concepts are to be tested an used in the wrong places
16:19:41 <wWwwW> what i want to code(bascially my goals):
16:19:42 <wWwwW> TC proof(since it has to be)
16:21:37 <korvo> Am I right in guessing that you're a young student still learning about the world? Or are you an adult returning to this world after experiencing real life?
16:22:05 <wWwwW> ..lets say i have a hard time in school
16:22:07 <korvo> I would encourage students to examine many *different* ways of existing. For computers, this means many different languages.
16:22:12 <korvo> Oh, no worries. I'm a dropout.
16:22:33 <korvo> Nonetheless studying is required. Try to draw a distinction between work done for grades and work done for exploration.
16:22:34 <wWwwW> i like to browse the wiki
16:22:52 <wWwwW> to see different stuff
16:23:03 <korvo> One technique I really liked at university was forcing students to explore different "paradigms" of programming, from different families of language design.
16:23:18 <wWwwW> ive *tried* to do that
16:23:57 <korvo> Like, you should spend 4wks *each* with a language from each of the families: Prolog, Smalltalk, Forth, Lisp, ML, and then an ALGOL for comparison.
16:24:17 <wWwwW> (^rlly like dis one^)
16:25:13 <korvo> Nah, you need an immersion in the *languages*, not just the "paradigms". Like, concretely try writing programs in miniKanren, Pharo, Factor, Racket, OCaml (or Haskell?) and then return to Python to see what you've learned.
16:25:37 <wWwwW> also i don think i have time for that
16:25:50 <wWwwW> also im a slow learner
16:26:09 <korvo> Explore what makes them useful. miniKanren is great for constraint solving (CSP). Pharo has interesting GUI and Web tools. Factor and OCaml will bend your mind. Racket will show you how to make new languages.
16:27:01 <korvo> ...Weren't you just saying that you were bored? A bored artist is not interesting. To be artistic is to constantly struggle to express oneself.
16:27:17 <wWwwW> well i do that too
16:27:26 <wWwwW> but i still don have time
16:27:44 <korvo> More seriously, I'm a musician and I used to spend hours at the piano practicing trills. My roommates do visual arts and are constantly talking of color theory, shading, etc. If you want to get into this stuff, you have to get *into* it.
16:28:02 <wWwwW> i get *into* programming
16:28:20 <wWwwW> idk if i work differently
16:28:26 <wWwwW> but my stuff gets gud
16:28:49 <wWwwW> i get somethin good
16:29:14 <korvo> Two things. First, relax and let your thoughts form complete sentences. You're not in a rush here; it's okay to take a minute and say what you want to say.
16:29:51 <wWwwW> until 8 o clock in denmark
16:29:56 <wWwwW> then i need to go to sleep
16:32:20 <korvo> Sure. Society asks too much of students. So, here's the second thing: at your age, you aren't expected to contribute to the future of esolangs. You certainly are allowed to contribute, but you're expected to take care of yourself and learn fundamentals first.
16:33:04 <korvo> It's *okay* to not have any dreams for new languages yet. I didn't start building languages until I was like 25 or 26 maybe, and I've only really written two serious languages, including one esolang.
16:33:20 <wWwwW> like thats what i am
16:33:41 <wWwwW> they fly around in my head
16:34:41 <wWwwW> idk what to do with them
16:35:09 <korvo> Learn a few dozen more languages and your head will quiet down. Right now you don't have many "schemata" (fancy psychology word), so each new language is going to seem like a radically new thing. Very interesting, much to learn.
16:36:02 <wWwwW> can they be esolangs
16:36:17 <wWwwW> my memory cant take like C or something
16:37:43 <korvo> They could be esolangs, but it'll be easier and more efficient to learn languages intended for serious use. I gave you a bunch of options earlier.
16:37:59 <wWwwW> but i dont have like
16:38:08 <wWwwW> the memory capacity
16:38:50 <korvo> Take your time. Keep the docs open and refer to them often. Don't force yourself to memorize anything. Focus on *expressing* the parts of the *problem* that you want to solve.
16:39:17 <korvo> I've been writing Python professionally for over a decade. I still look at the docs daily.
16:39:58 <wWwwW> ill try haskell then
16:40:52 <wWwwW> but also the only reasaon ive learned pythonsi cuz i had another human involved
16:41:44 <korvo> Sure. When you're just starting out, you might need in-person discussions from tutors or classes. That's common.
16:42:02 <wWwwW> or the social skill
16:42:48 <korvo> Python meetups are usually free. Ask the people who introduced you to programming. There's likely something nearby.
16:43:23 <wWwwW> #im danish and my teacher is southafrican
16:43:35 <korvo> And yes, you'll have to build social skills if you don't want to teach yourself by reading lots of books. You have to have information presented to you one way or another.
16:43:48 <wWwwW> like conferences f my brain
16:44:02 <wWwwW> mostly cuz i go bullied at school and still do
16:44:13 <wWwwW> thats not something to talk about here
16:44:13 <korvo> Me too. Don't worry, eventually school ends.
16:44:31 <wWwwW> is it annoying every day lol
16:45:37 <wWwwW> the worst thing is that they bully my brother
16:45:42 <wWwwW> ig im just a "nerd"
16:48:59 <esolangs> [[By+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138795 * Catto.4 * (+2549) created page for by+
16:50:02 <wWwwW> im taking totorial
16:51:01 <wWwwW> oh so in atou applies
16:51:23 <korvo> Haskell is a community flavor of Miranda, itself an attempt to make Lazy ML practical. Miranda was not Free Software for a long time, and the Haskell community formed to fix that.
16:52:07 <korvo> It's worth knowing about e.g. OCaml, which also inherits from ML via SML but is not lazy. The whole lazy-vs-eager thing, or strict vs non-strict, is a big deal.
16:52:41 <wWwwW> rn im doing haskell
16:52:54 <wWwwW> also why the hell is there the lambda symbol?
16:54:04 <wWwwW> the in makes definitions
16:54:17 <korvo> When Alonzo Church went to typeset his work, he wanted to write something like a hat or overbar on top of each variable, like `ô.î.o` for what Haskellers would write as `\o -> \i -> o`.
16:54:36 <korvo> However, the typesetter couldn't really do that, and the best they could do was to write a lambda before each variable name.
16:54:52 <korvo> It could be worse; Pythonistas would write `lambda o: lambda i: o`.
16:58:39 <korvo> wWwwW: As you learn more history, you'll be like "oh yeah, Church's lambda calculus". And later, you'll be like "oh that's the K combinator!"
16:58:42 <esolangs> [[By+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138796&oldid=138795 * Catto.4 * (+127) added optional argument to base
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17:15:50 <korvo> Nah, "smart" and "stupid" don't really mean much. You're *inexperienced*, and that's okay.
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17:29:33 <wWwwW> i dont want to go so deep
17:34:33 <wWwwW> what are you doin rn
17:34:42 <wWwwW> im questioning my own person
17:35:30 <wWwwW> what are you doing?
17:36:11 <wWwwW> want somethin to do(lol)
17:37:12 <wWwwW> cuz then i have something
17:39:41 <wWwwW> helping me solve for dis: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
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17:43:35 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138797&oldid=138777 * Yayimhere * (+49)
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17:50:53 <wWwwW> holeee i forgot this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/W)
17:55:45 <wWwwW> like why did i make tht
17:55:50 <wWwwW> what do you think?
17:56:08 <wWwwW> also bracket part of link
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18:08:52 <korvo> I think that joke languages shouldn't be the primary targets for disambiguations, unless they are as notable as INTERCAL.
18:10:01 <korvo> Oh, I was looking at W, sorry.
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18:10:24 <ais523> although iNTERCAL is a joke by normal language standards, it is not a joke by esolang standards
18:10:35 <korvo> I don't have any serious opinions about Final Word of the Day yet. I can't really say much about a language without seeing its syntax: tokens, grammar, encoding, etc.
18:11:38 <ais523> Final Word of the Day makes me wonder if it would be possible to design an esolang in that style, sufficiently to narrow it down to only one possible language
18:11:58 <ais523> in a way, it is a declarative esolang specification, as opposed to the normal imperative style of writing specifications
18:12:18 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138798&oldid=134904 * Yayimhere * (+179)
18:13:26 <korvo> Ah, I see now. w> looks fun. I've seen similar 2D languages before but I'm struggling to recall any of their names.
18:14:58 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138799&oldid=138776 * Yayimhere * (+12)
18:16:10 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138800&oldid=138799 * Yayimhere * (+0)
18:16:59 <ais523> this doesn't explain whether the pointer turns left or right, when turning 90 degrees
18:17:26 <ais523> also, starting in the top left moving left is weird – you would have to change the pointer direction immediately to prevent it escaping the program
18:17:45 <wWwwW> it turns 90 degrees
18:17:49 <wWwwW> from current direction
18:17:58 <wWwwW> if its going down it would go right
18:18:00 <ais523> I think most 2D languages solve the "does it turn left or right?" problem by having two commands, one for each direction
18:18:09 <ais523> going left is also 90 degrees from down, though
18:18:34 <ais523> oh, there is more than one convention for this
18:18:52 <ais523> some mathematical conventions have it always measured anticlockwise, in which case you can say "90 degrees anticlockwise"
18:18:53 <wWwwW> how would i write that
18:19:02 <ais523> I think that's the one you're using
18:19:28 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138801&oldid=138798 * Yayimhere * (+14)
18:19:50 <ais523> korvo: re: existing languages, there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shove but it's different enough to probably not be a see also – there might be a more similar one
18:20:35 <korvo> ais523: I always think of these as "laser tank" languages after a childhood puzzle game that involved shooting laser beams at mazes of mirrors.
18:21:05 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Black was vaguely inspired by such a game
18:21:11 <ais523> although all the rules are different
18:21:53 <korvo> Nice. Very similar vibe, yeah.
18:22:11 <ais523> early in esolangs.org's history, people were looking to make a 2D language with only one command + NOP
18:22:12 <wWwwW> BLACK IS THE BEST(im a black lover lol)
18:22:32 <wWwwW> ais523: like 1L_x?
18:22:48 <ais523> Black was my attempt, although looking at adjacent squares makes it cheating in a way
18:23:09 <ais523> (much later I produced https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopstacle)
18:24:15 <ais523> oops, I think I tagged Nopstacle as implemented by mistake
18:24:28 <wWwwW> the fact that Turnfunge is insane to me
18:24:35 <esolangs> [[Nopstacle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138802&oldid=130573 * Ais523 * (+2) fix categorisation mistake
18:24:38 <wWwwW> the things that are TC man
18:25:05 <ais523> it took a lot of practice as a community before we got that style of language to be TC that simply
18:25:20 <ais523> back when we were starting out, we couldn't do much better than https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L_a
18:26:27 <wWwwW> Turnfunge reminds me of https://esolangs.org/wiki/OFFICIAL
18:26:59 <ais523> (also apparently 1L_a still hasn't been proven TC? I might have a look at that)
18:27:18 <wWwwW> im the one who talked 'bout that right?
18:28:07 <wWwwW> that was on i think 1L_A somethin somethin
18:29:24 <wWwwW> dis one: https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L_AOI
18:30:03 <ais523> my guess is that OFFICIAL is sub-TC, although it is able to count arbitrarily high I don't think there's any way to read any form of counter it has when it gets large enough to escape the original bounds of the program
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18:35:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/(x]] to [[Gora]]
18:37:48 <ais523> hmm, I'm not convinced 1L_AOI is TC, it looks like there is no way to set a zero cell to nonzero because if the MP is over a zero cell, you can't change direction and thus can't change the command from an MP-moving command to a value-changing command
18:38:44 <ais523> and cpressey noticed the same thing a while ago
18:40:05 <esolangs> [[1L AOI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138805&oldid=31425 * Ais523 * (-28) remove Turing tarpits category although it was intended to be one, it has no way to change zero values to nonzero (see comments by Chris Pressey on talk), and needs to change values to zero in order to test them, thus can only read memory finitely many times and is not TC
18:43:38 <esolangs> [[1L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138806&oldid=90777 * Ais523 * (+104) add Turnfunge and Nopstacle
18:44:02 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138807&oldid=138803 * Ractangle * (+181)
18:44:25 <ais523> OK, so what if we average Turnfunge (turn left when there is a solid cell behind the pointer) and Nopstacle (turn left when there is a solid cell in front of the pointer), producing a "turn left when there is a solid cell at the pointer" language
18:45:03 <ais523> I initially assumed that was sub-TC because otherwise Turnfunge would have been defined like that, but that isn't actually valid reasoning so I should think about it properly
18:45:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138808&oldid=138634 * Ractangle * (+52) /* Esolangs */
18:46:02 <ais523> ah, I see, it's reversible, which doesn't necessarily make it sub-TC but makes the proof much harder
18:47:27 <ais523> even in 2024, I think it is still the case that we have no good tarpits for TCness proofs of reversible counter machines (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flow_of_Holes was designed as a step in that sort of proof but it isn't a very simple one)
18:48:28 <ais523> and in particular I am not sure that two counters is enough for a reversible counter machine to be TC
18:48:52 <ais523> (but I am also not sure that it is not enough)
18:49:51 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138809&oldid=138808 * Ractangle * (+36) /* Esolangs */
18:52:47 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138810&oldid=138807 * Ractangle * (+156)
19:06:24 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138811&oldid=138810 * Ractangle * (+7)
19:09:40 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138812&oldid=138811 * Ractangle * (+44)
19:22:45 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138813&oldid=138812 * Ractangle * (+40)
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19:31:30 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138814&oldid=138813 * Ractangle * (+30)
19:37:02 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138815&oldid=138814 * Ractangle * (+70) /* Syntax */
19:37:52 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138816&oldid=138815 * Ractangle * (+132) /* Examples */
19:40:40 <esolangs> [[By+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138817&oldid=138796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lowercase
19:42:31 <esolangs> [[Spacechem Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138818&oldid=40146 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
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20:18:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138819&oldid=138761 * Tommyaweosme * (+296) /* gd auto level */
20:24:54 <fizzie> Bah. Tried to use a test query of "Could you explain what the Funciton language is all about?" for the LLM thing (updated the model), but the keyword extraction scheme helpfully extracted the keyword "function", which of course doesn't find anything relevant, so the model output was just: > The "Funciton" language is not mentioned in the text. It's likely a typo or a term not relevant to the
20:25:58 <fizzie> It's now using Gemma 2.0 rather than 1.1, since they released the 2B(-ish) parameter size version of Gemma 2 as well. But really the model quality hasn't been the (main) problem in getting useful responses: the search and article selection is (plus context size limits that haven't changed).
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20:27:06 <fizzie> I think I probably just need some sort of maybe TF-IDF-ranked full text search thing on the original question, as-is, rather than asking the model to extract search keywords.
20:28:26 <fizzie> (Or maybe I could just use the custom Google search API, they've indexed the wiki anyway and it has a free tier of 100 queries per day. I just liked the notion of this being entirely self-hosted.)
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01:32:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:By+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138820 * Ais523 * (+396) /* Implementation */ new section
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02:27:07 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138821 * PkmnQ * (+2025) Created page with "This is [[User:PkmnQ]]'s solution to [[Final Word Of The Day]]. == Execution == The program stores data in named miniprograms, which can be edited and ran inside the main program. All miniprograms start empty. At the beginning of the program, the inpu
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03:35:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Gora]] to [[-(anor)]]
03:38:13 <esolangs> [[-(anor)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138824&oldid=138822 * Ractangle * (-767)
03:38:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[-(anor)]] to [[-(anor^2)]]
03:45:03 <esolangs> [[-(anor^2)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138827&oldid=138825 * Ractangle * (+181)
03:47:17 <esolangs> [[-(anor^2)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138828&oldid=138827 * Ractangle * (+45) /* Syntax */
03:47:27 <esolangs> [[-(anor^2)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138829&oldid=138828 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Syntax */
03:50:18 <esolangs> [[-(anor^2)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138830&oldid=138829 * Ractangle * (-58)
03:53:17 <esolangs> [[-(anor^2)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138831&oldid=138830 * Ractangle * (+80)
03:53:37 <esolangs> [[-(anor^2)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138832&oldid=138831 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Syntax */
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04:14:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138833 * Gggfr * (+116) Created page with "damn. damn thats cool. holeee [~~~~]"
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04:31:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:0815]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138834&oldid=51052 * Gggfr * (+200) /* Language Details are not clear */
04:36:18 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138835&oldid=138797 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) See also
04:37:55 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138836&oldid=138821 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Categories
04:38:45 <ipadwwwww> holeee look at dis: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day/PkmnQ
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04:47:15 <wWwwW> contiuing my message
04:47:33 <wWwwW> what would you do to make it TC?
04:49:10 <esolangs> [[OFFICIAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138837&oldid=136748 * Yayimhere * (+1)
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05:28:47 <esolangs> [[Larry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138838&oldid=137316 * Yayimhere * (-9) this...this is not a stub
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06:26:32 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138839&oldid=138836 * PkmnQ * (+256) not a solution
06:30:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138840&oldid=138833 * PkmnQ * (+191)
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07:00:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: "the custom Google search API, they've indexed the wiki anyway" => that may help with Funciton, but some of the article titles on this wiki are so stupid that even google won't search for them
07:02:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: heck, in fact I just tried google and it tells me it's searching for “function site:esolangs org” and click on this small text link if I really mean “funciton site:esolangs.org”.
07:02:59 <b_jonas> though even with the default spelling correction, it still gives Funciton as the second result
07:13:48 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138841&oldid=138764 * DGCK81LNN * (+36)
07:14:24 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138842&oldid=138841 * DGCK81LNN * (+1)
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07:39:04 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138843&oldid=138288 * Ractangle * (+42) /* syntax */
07:40:59 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138844&oldid=138843 * Ractangle * (+13)
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08:45:19 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138845&oldid=138809 * Ractangle * (-5)
08:46:09 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138846&oldid=138845 * Ractangle * (-67)
08:46:58 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138847&oldid=138846 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Esolangs */
08:48:57 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138848&oldid=138847 * Ractangle * (-27) /* Esolangs */
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09:26:27 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138849&oldid=136555 * Ractangle * (-7)
09:27:32 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138850&oldid=138849 * Ractangle * (+7)
09:33:20 <esolangs> [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138851&oldid=137212 * Ractangle * (-7)
09:33:50 <esolangs> [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138852&oldid=138851 * Ractangle * (-32)
09:39:29 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138853&oldid=135862 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Syntax */
09:39:48 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138854&oldid=138853 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Eaxmples */
09:42:29 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138855&oldid=138741 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Implementetion */
09:43:10 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138856&oldid=138855 * Ractangle * (+2) /* I don't even know what to type here */
09:46:51 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138857&oldid=137706 * Ractangle * (-9)
09:48:56 <esolangs> [[Pyline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138858&oldid=121791 * DGCK81LNN * (+1355) /* Brainfuck interpreter */
10:20:19 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138859&oldid=138475 * DGCK81LNN * (+426)
10:21:44 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138860&oldid=138859 * DGCK81LNN * (+12)
10:22:40 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138861&oldid=138860 * DGCK81LNN * (+0) /* Example programs */
10:29:45 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138862&oldid=138861 * DGCK81LNN * (-1) /* Example programs */
10:50:17 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138863&oldid=138862 * DGCK81LNN * (-66) /* Mechanics */
10:54:10 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138864&oldid=138863 * DGCK81LNN * (+98) /* Mechanics */
10:55:27 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138865&oldid=138864 * DGCK81LNN * (+0) /* Mechanics */
10:56:36 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138866&oldid=138865 * DGCK81LNN * (+3) /* Mechanics */
10:57:52 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138867&oldid=138866 * DGCK81LNN * (+31) /* Mechanics */
10:58:22 <esolangs> [[-(anor^2)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138868&oldid=138832 * Ractangle * (+4)
11:02:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * DGCK81LNN * uploaded "[[File:WhatLang dices.png]]"
11:04:25 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138870&oldid=138867 * DGCK81LNN * (+381) /* Example programs */
11:12:43 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138871&oldid=138870 * DGCK81LNN * (+19) /* Example programs */
11:39:53 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again4]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138872&oldid=138478 * None1 * (+32)
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11:49:48 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138873&oldid=138871 * DGCK81LNN * (+167)
11:50:06 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138874&oldid=138873 * DGCK81LNN * (+7)
11:50:40 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138875&oldid=138874 * DGCK81LNN * (+1)
12:01:16 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138876&oldid=138433 * Unname4798 * (-1) testing
12:02:28 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138877&oldid=138872 * Unname4798 * (-1) testing
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12:31:53 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138878&oldid=138875 * DGCK81LNN * (+115) /* Instructions */
12:37:06 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138879&oldid=138878 * DGCK81LNN * (+36)
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13:39:08 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138880&oldid=138844 * Yayimhere * (-170) /* examples */
13:41:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138881&oldid=138840 * Yayimhere * (+121)
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13:55:52 <esolangs> [[0815]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138882&oldid=58725 * Yayimhere * (+48) /* Computational class */ the proof needs unbounded to be TC
13:57:05 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138883&oldid=138801 * Yayimhere * (-8)
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14:31:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138884&oldid=137632 * Yayimhere * (+104) /* what was the limitation */
14:32:26 <wWwwW> agian to continue my message(seems nobody saw it) but what would you do to making OFFICIAL TC?
14:47:15 <esolangs> [[WC is a toilet but v, and c are Unlambda operators]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138885 * Yayimhere * (+261) Created page with "'''WC is a toilet but v, and c are Unlambda operators''' or '''WCTVCUO''' is a esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]]. the only change from [[Unlambda]] is that he only operators are <code>c and v</code> with another operator: .xy cre
14:48:18 <esolangs> [[WC is a toilet but v, and c are Unlambda operators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138886&oldid=138885 * Yayimhere * (+0)
14:51:14 <wWwwW> can i get feedback?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/WC_is_a_toilet_but_v,_and_c_are_Unlambda_operators
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15:15:17 <korvo> wWwwW: What does this change about Unlambda? Are some things now easier to express? Harder to read?
15:15:41 <wWwwW> its more limited and harder to use
15:19:34 <korvo> Oh, I misread. You've *removed* syntax. I see.
15:22:24 <korvo> I think this is a fairly weak fragment. I'm gonna use category theory; v is the constant arrow to the terminal object and c is the standard call/cc over some continuation monad (perhaps the initial such monad?)
15:23:03 <korvo> And then it's folklore that you can't build S or K from this. Continuation monads can't do anything besides be applied at some location; they don't introduce or eliminate type constructors.
15:28:34 <wWwwW> what would you then need to add?
15:29:16 <esolangs> [[WCTVCUO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138887 * Yayimhere * (+64) Redirected page to [[WC is a toilet but v, and c are Unlambda operators]]
15:29:56 <wWwwW> if this isnt TC(i assume it is)
15:30:38 <korvo> Usually for combinators I'd look for a *fixed-point combinator
15:30:57 <korvo> So something like Z, Y, U, or Turing's bird.
15:32:47 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138888&oldid=138800 * Yayimhere * (+57)
15:33:50 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138889&oldid=138888 * Yayimhere * (+33)
15:33:56 <korvo> If you haven't seen it, we have a nice table of combinators: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Bird_sociology
15:36:43 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138890&oldid=138889 * Yayimhere * (-47) /* eoslangs */
15:36:49 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138891&oldid=138890 * Yayimhere * (+47) /* things about me */
15:38:33 <wWwwW> i rlly love dis eoslang: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day/PkmnQ
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15:43:24 <wWwwW> what do you guys think?
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15:50:50 <korvo> It's alright. Reminds me of f-exprs, as in Lisps like Kernel.
15:54:35 <ais523> I've been thinking about an esolang
15:54:43 <ais523> need to write some program fragments to make sure it works
15:54:56 <wWwwW> wait one you make yourself
15:55:12 <ais523> yes, although this one is a simple variation on a couple of existing ones
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15:55:28 <ais523> it's harder to prove TC but I think it still is
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15:55:48 <ais523> fizzie: oh wow, a sitenotice
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15:56:52 <ais523> fungot: do you maintain the wiki hardware, too?
15:56:53 <fungot> ais523: which implementation? i want their names. ultra10s are named after toys in toy story, but sid is the only free piece of code
15:56:54 <wWwwW> the hell. why did a disconnect
15:57:09 <ais523> this happens a lot on IRC, in my experience
15:57:24 <Sgeo> korvo, if you like stuff like f-exprs and Kernel, check out Smalltalk-72
15:57:42 <wWwwW> rarer than me geting ads(see my talk page lol)
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16:01:12 <fizzie> ais523: There's been such an uptick in the frequency of edits that I thought it'd be polite to put up a note, just so nobody spends an hour polishing an edit and is then unable to save it.
16:02:00 <wWwwW> how would you program in this?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/2_Player
16:02:05 <ais523> fizzie: it does make sense
16:02:42 <ais523> on my own server I normally check the logs to see whether anyone is connected before doing maintenance, but that only works because there's an explicit "connected" state, it isn't like a wiki where you can just submit pages whenever
16:03:23 <Sgeo> wWwwW, that's a bit confusing that it starts on the left edge and goes left. Is there wraparound?
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16:03:45 <wWwwW> it halts if off edge
16:04:37 <Sgeo> That, uh. Trivializes the language. Always halts immediately.
16:04:47 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138892&oldid=138633 * Yayimhere * (+126)
16:04:50 <Sgeo> Wait, no, first command might take effect
16:05:23 <wWwwW> more command ideas
16:05:25 <ais523> it's not clear how the language usefully stores data
16:06:03 <ais523> a common way for languages to fail TCness is "when the amount of stored data gets too large, there is no way to read the full amount of the data" (I did that intentionally when writing BuzzFizz)
16:06:24 <wWwwW> the grid expands with commands
16:06:29 <wWwwW> i need to write that
16:06:34 <ais523> also commands that only work once generally aren't very useful, unless they are needed for program startup
16:08:42 <fizzie> For general interest: the "maintenance" is for setting up MariaDB replication, so that I'll have a local copy that's in the order of at most a few minutes old, rather than just the weekly one. Getting it started involves making a copy of the database and recording the current binlog position in such a way that they're consistent with each other.
16:09:13 <wWwwW> what do you mean ais523
16:10:30 <ais523> wWwwW: well, a program that "demonstrates TCness" needs to be able to potentially run forever, that means it can't rely on commands that only work once
16:11:03 * ais523 updates their local backup of the wiki
16:12:04 <ais523> in the early days of the wiki, we were worried it might go offline – esolang content had a habit of doing that and we wanted the wiki to preserve the content
16:12:17 <ais523> so, lots of us made backups of it so that we could restore it if something went wrong
16:12:39 <ais523> I'm not sure how many people are still doing that, but it doesn't hurt to do it on occasion, especially if there's about to be major maintenance done
16:14:21 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138893&oldid=138892 * Yayimhere * (+377)
16:14:29 <wWwwW> done with the new commands
16:15:08 <wWwwW> what do you think now
16:19:02 <wWwwW> ais523 what wo you think now?
16:19:32 <ais523> it's a bit difficult to work out at short notice
16:19:51 <wWwwW> ! and X are the new commands
16:19:56 <ais523> you like to make your esolangs difficult, which is fine, but that means that people will need to spend a lot of time to think about them
16:20:21 <wWwwW> it has an explination
16:20:29 <wWwwW> but idk if anybody wants to hear it
16:20:35 <ais523> I still don't see how it stores data, though
16:20:48 <ais523> also, you should clarify whether the data pointer runs / responds to commands
16:20:51 <wWwwW> since you can modify code
16:21:21 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138894&oldid=138893 * Yayimhere * (+15)
16:21:33 <ais523> ah, I see, and then the data pointer has a larger area to wrap in
16:21:38 <wWwwW> ok fixed the mirror thing
16:27:37 * ais523 almost writes an unless-else statement, then thinks better of it
16:28:08 <ais523> oh, I can write unless-next, that makes more sense
16:28:13 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138895&oldid=138894 * Yayimhere * (+339)
16:36:18 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138896&oldid=138895 * Yayimhere * (+495)
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17:04:36 <wWwwW> what do you think now ais523
17:05:50 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138897&oldid=138896 * Yayimhere * (+8) /* commands */
17:11:43 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138898&oldid=138880 * Ractangle * (+12) /* examples */
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17:13:41 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138899&oldid=138898 * Yayimhere * (+41) /* examples */
17:15:37 <esolangs> [[OTS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138900&oldid=138382 * Yayimhere * (+43)
17:16:06 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138901&oldid=138897 * Yayimhere * (-12) /* commands */
17:16:36 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138902&oldid=138901 * Yayimhere * (+12) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/138901|138901]] by [[Special:Contributions/Yayimhere|Yayimhere]] ([[User talk:Yayimhere|talk]])
17:16:47 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138903&oldid=138902 * Yayimhere * (-41) /* commands */
17:17:10 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138904&oldid=138903 * Yayimhere * (-33) /* commands */
17:20:03 <esolangs> [[WC is a toilet but v, and c are Unlambda operators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138905&oldid=138886 * Yayimhere * (+16)
17:25:42 <korvo> wWwwW: I was netsplit, so maybe I missed it, but do you have ` or is this purely strings of c and v?
17:26:07 <wWwwW> i would like to include it
17:26:15 <wWwwW> but ` sint a operator
17:27:29 <esolangs> [[Turning tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138906&oldid=96989 * Ais523 * (+163) /* Overview of the Genre */ mention Advance The Wheel!
17:27:33 <korvo> It's a parenthesis. It's the ability to make trees of combinators and not only strings.
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17:34:54 <esolangs> [[WC is a toilet but v, and c are Unlambda operators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138907&oldid=138905 * Yayimhere * (+31)
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17:44:46 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138908&oldid=138899 * Ractangle * (-14) /* examples */
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18:00:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:0815]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138909&oldid=138834 * Yayimhere * (+111) /* proof of TCness incorrect */
18:07:45 <esolangs> [[~~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138910&oldid=138479 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* ~~ hexadecimal format */
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19:33:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[-(anor^2)]] to [[User:Ractangle/TSYALFIC]]
19:36:20 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/TSYALFIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138913&oldid=138911 * Ractangle * (-257)
19:37:33 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/TSYALFIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138914&oldid=138913 * Ractangle * (+17)
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21:27:42 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138915&oldid=138835 * 0ptr * (+1) grammar
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21:36:43 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138916&oldid=138915 * 0ptr * (+23) improve wording
21:37:09 <zzo38> Can setcontext and pthreads be used together in the same program?
21:39:41 <zzo38> Also, is there a better way if the signal mask is not needed for contexts?
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21:52:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it can be, but if you want to do that sort of thing I recommend that you look at libcoro "http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libcoro.html" which abstracts context switching with multiple different backends including setcontext as one of the backends
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22:03:41 <esolangs> [[Flow of Holes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138917&oldid=130106 * Ais523 * (+33) /* See also */ cat
22:04:03 <esolangs> [[Bouncy Counters]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138918 * Ais523 * (+9745) new language!
22:04:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138919&oldid=138280 * Ais523 * (+22) /* B */ +[[Bouncy Counters]]
22:05:16 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138920&oldid=137675 * Ais523 * (+21) +[[Bouncy Counters]]
22:05:35 <esolangs> [[Flow of Holes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138921&oldid=138917 * Ais523 * (+22) /* See also */ +[[Bouncy Counters]]
22:06:17 <Sgeo> Smalltalk-72 isn't an esolang, and isn't.... weird enough compared to Forth, but... it's still weird that I wish I could write about it somewhere esolang adjacent
22:08:26 <ais523> Sgeo: some people use userspace on Esolang for that sort of thing
22:08:41 <ais523> e.g. I think zzo38 has a list of non-esoteric languages that have esoteric aspects
22:11:26 <b_jonas> if you're writing mainly about the esoteric aspects you can probably get away with writing an article about any language, even respected good non-esoteric ones
22:12:20 * Sgeo looks up fexpr to reorient himselff
22:12:42 <Sgeo> "All functions are fexprs" is weird but... not unique probably
22:13:20 <ais523> b_jonas: the more I learn about Rust's parser, the more esoteric I start to think its syntax is
22:14:09 <ais523> it seems like Rust started with a highly ambiguous syntax and then started putting special-case patches into the parser and lexer until it started parsing ambiguous things the way the implementors expected – I don't think many languages do that
22:14:13 <ais523> (Perl does it, but it does so openly)
22:14:46 <ais523> some of the ambiguities are funny but don't really matter, e.g. «4.0» is a float constant, «4 .0» is the first field of 4 interpreted as a tuple
22:16:12 <ais523> but some are more interesting, like putting a struct literal in the control variable of an if or match (with «match Identifier { … }» the { … } could belong to either the match statement or to the identifier)
22:17:05 <ais523> and some are just confusing, e.g. .. is both an operator that applies to two values of the same type, and a value, so you can write .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. and it means something (and apparently has precedence rules so that there is one "official" parse of it)
22:23:34 <esolangs> [[Reversible Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138922&oldid=57329 * Ais523 * (+24) /* See also */ +[[Reversible Bitfuck]]
22:25:46 <b_jonas> ais523: the floating point ambiguity exists in other languages too. In python, 3.E2 is a floating-point literal with 2 as the decimal exponent, while 3 .E2 tries to access the attribute E2 of the integer 3
22:25:53 <esolangs> [[Bouncy Counters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138923&oldid=138918 * Ais523 * (+57) /* See also */ +[[[[Reversible Brainfuck#Unbounded cells, bounded tape]]
22:26:53 <b_jonas> C++ encountered this when they added user-defined numeric literals, which are syntactically written as a numeric literal immediately followed by an identifier suffix, but since hex number literals can end in a hex digit, this could be ambiguous
22:26:59 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if .e2 parses as 0.0e2 (and, consequently, is a zero) in any language.
22:27:41 <fizzie> (`.0e2` certainly does.)
22:28:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: "in any language" probably
22:29:42 <ais523> b_jonas: I thought C++ required an extra underscore in order to make that work
22:29:44 <b_jonas> I heard about the braces ambiguity with if/while body, I think that is important enough that every rust programmer encounter it, and as such it's a normal syntax rule and less a dangerou ambiguity
22:29:58 <ais523> apparently the rule has changed over time
22:30:17 <ais523> nowadays there are required parentheses around the condition if the block doesn't belong to the control flow statement, but that wasn't always the rule
22:32:42 <b_jonas> ".. is both an operator that applies to two values of the same type, and a value" => that's not realy scary, many languages have things that are both infix operators and start of an expression, and they just parse left to right and then it's not ambiguous. the problem here is that .. can be a *suffix operator* with nothing after it or an infix operator
22:35:34 <b_jonas> also an expression alone and a prefix operator
22:36:09 <ais523> fwiw I've decided that the clearest syntax for ranges uses ..^ (from Perl 6) for exclusive ranges and ..= (from Rust) for inclusive ranges
22:36:16 <ais523> that way you don't get confused upon seeing a plain ..
22:36:36 <ais523> this would also distinguish the infix operator from the suffix operator (but the infix and prefix versions would still be the same)
22:39:02 <esolangs> [[Bit bucket]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138924 * Ais523 * (+3085) it's about time this concept was documented there are quite a few redlinks to it
22:42:44 <ais523> <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if .e2 parses as 0.0e2 (and, consequently, is a zero) in any language. ← in Jelly, a . on its own parses as 0.5; that means that the equivalent of .e2 parses as 50.0 (however, it uses ȷ as its scientific notation separator rather than e)
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22:51:31 <fizzie> Aw, I forgot to do `flush tables with read lock;` when getting the binlog position. I may need to do that read-only thing again. :/
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22:55:15 <ais523> I've finished my big edits for the time being
22:55:23 <fizzie> I guess it's been reasonably quiet now.
22:55:28 <ais523> (I started writing before the maintenance window, then did something else for a few hours, and finished afterwards)
22:57:14 <ais523> also it's weird to see the site notice just appear and disappear like that, without a MediaWiki: page being edited (I know you can set it in the MediaWiki config too)
23:01:38 <b_jonas> ais523: clearly there has to be a way to add a site notice if something is broken or the wiki is already in a read-only mode and you can't edit a MediaWiki: page
23:02:16 <b_jonas> and fizzie probably has access on the server to do that
23:03:20 <b_jonas> it probably happens less on larger mediawiki sites where there are more active wiki admins who don't have computer admin rights
23:03:43 <fizzie> I have to set $wgReadOnly in the config anyway to _make_ it read-only.
23:04:31 <fizzie> It went by a lot quicker now that I wasn't at work getting distracted by work things.
23:10:58 <Sgeo> Is it weird that I think Smalltalk-72's conditionals are weird? (a => (b) => c) means if a then b else c, with an asymmetrical then/else thing that ... makes me think a bit of Swift guard, and makes if/elseif/else easy, like (a => (b) c => (d) e)
23:11:26 <Sgeo> I keep wavering between thinking it's unusual and thinking it's just if/elif/else
23:14:06 <b_jonas> Sgeo: wait what? what's the syntax for the if-else? what you wrote is confusing
23:14:37 <b_jonas> ok that looks more reasonable,
23:14:47 <Sgeo> if a is not false, execute/return b, otherwise return the rest of the expression
23:15:12 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess I miswrote it above
23:15:32 <b_jonas> though it's still strange because Smalltalk is supposed to have built-in syntax to pass lambda closures as a method argument, which means they can just have if-else as an ordinary method on booleans
23:15:50 <b_jonas> and need no special syntax for it
23:16:45 <b_jonas> the arrow is kind of old style and gone out of fashion (which I don't mind), but I don't think it's too strange
23:17:49 <Sgeo> Smalltalk-72 is before blocks. Functions and objects are basically the same, and the way to make an object that responds to different messages is a long if/else chai
23:17:56 <ais523> it seems quite common for modern programming languages to use both -> and => but for different things
23:18:13 <b_jonas> oh, it's *before* blocks syntax?
23:18:26 <b_jonas> I didn't know it was called smalltalk before that
23:19:33 <Sgeo> https://smalltalkzoo.thechm.org/HOPL-St72.html emulator on the web, although it's a bit imperfect, I don't think it responds to clicks. https://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/smalltalk/Smalltalk-72_Instruction_Manual_Mar76.pdf manual
23:20:04 <Sgeo> to if exp (:exp?(%then?(:exp. %else?(:". exp)exp)error "(no then))
23:20:04 <Sgeo> %then?(:". %else?(:exp) false)error "(no then))
23:20:04 <Sgeo> 'The ALGOL if ... then ... else ...'
23:20:31 <Sgeo> ... I'm not actually going to try to understand that
23:20:46 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138925&oldid=138879 * DGCK81LNN * (+1122) /* Example programs */
23:20:47 <Sgeo> I guess that arrow is encoded in ASCII as %
23:20:59 <Sgeo> to is how to define new functions/classes
23:21:07 <Sgeo> (Apparently like Logo but I don't know Logo)
23:22:25 <Sgeo> https://github.com/pablomarx/Smalltalk72/blob/a1efa79e5ba678a0bf550ba6797f36013f59e507/system/ALLDEFS#L229
23:22:52 <Sgeo> Definition of falseclass. Actually a primitive but string as comment shows definiton
23:23:19 <Sgeo> Eyeball symbol is true and consumes the next token if the next token in the message matches the thing after eyeball
23:23:35 <ais523> I only ever used the turtle-moving parts of Logo, and repeat-n loops, but apparently it's object-oriented?
23:23:57 <Sgeo> : evaluates something in the message. So you can see how it's an if/else chain for how false should respond to messages
23:26:34 <Sgeo> ? in the if/then/else thing I pasted above is the arrow operator thing. % is eyeball. The Github link is easier to read than trying to paste in here
23:28:44 <b_jonas> ok, I have to admit that does look like very old style code
23:29:01 <b_jonas> they probably learned some of that from forth
23:29:19 <b_jonas> I mean can you still say after that that smalltalk isn't related to forth?
23:48:11 <Sgeo> https://worrydream.com/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk/ says that it was inspired by FLEX, PLANNER, LOGO, META II
23:48:35 <Sgeo> (and Lisp, but I think that's mentioned elsewhere in that page)
23:49:37 <Sgeo> ". My next question was, why on earth call it a functional language? Why not just base everything on FEXPRs and force evaluation on the receiving side when needed? "
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02:38:39 <esolangs> [[WC is a toilet but v, and c are Unlambda operators]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138926&oldid=138907 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) Categories
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03:19:40 <esolangs> [[Bouncy Counters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138927&oldid=138923 * Ais523 * (+2) /* With five counters */ fix whitespace
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03:22:29 <esolangs> [[Bouncy Counters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138928&oldid=138927 * Ais523 * (+146) /* Starting and stopping the program */ an important clarification which wasn't previously clear from the page
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04:34:54 <esolangs> [[Computational model]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138929 * Yayimhere * (+43) Redirected page to [[Category:Computational models]]
04:41:47 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138930&oldid=137957 * Yayimhere * (-73) /* examples */
04:42:36 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138931&oldid=138930 * Yayimhere * (+9) /* examples */
04:43:12 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138932&oldid=138931 * Yayimhere * (+4) /* examples */
04:43:18 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138933&oldid=138932 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
04:44:06 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138934&oldid=138933 * Yayimhere * (+78) /* examples */
04:44:37 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138935&oldid=138934 * Yayimhere * (+5) /* examples */
04:45:04 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138936&oldid=138935 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* syntax */
04:45:22 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138937&oldid=138936 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* examples */
04:45:46 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138938&oldid=138937 * Yayimhere * (+5) /* examples */
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05:27:13 <esolangs> [[One-Instruction Cyclic Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138939&oldid=137289 * Ttulka * (+31) /* Debugging */ add Initial string
05:27:50 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138940&oldid=138916 * Yayimhere * (+5)
05:27:51 <esolangs> [[One-Instruction Cyclic Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138941&oldid=138939 * Ttulka * (-2) /* Debugging */ phrasing
05:29:25 <esolangs> [[One-Instruction Cyclic Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138942&oldid=138941 * Ttulka * (+16) /* Debugging */ add subtitle
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05:50:51 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138943&oldid=137091 * Zzo38 * (+686) Backward variant
05:55:40 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138944&oldid=138943 * Zzo38 * (+5)
06:26:12 <esolangs> [[One-Instruction Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138945&oldid=138942 * Ractangle * (+18) /* External resources */
06:26:25 <esolangs> [[One-Instruction Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138946&oldid=138945 * Ractangle * (+0) /* External resources */
06:29:32 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138947&oldid=138753 * Yayimhere * (+56)
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08:21:06 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138948&oldid=137497 * Ractangle * (-35) /* Commands */
08:21:25 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138949&oldid=138948 * Ractangle * (-13)
08:31:07 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138950&oldid=138848 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Esolangs */
08:31:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/TSYALFIC]] to [[NRP]]
08:33:26 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138953&oldid=138951 * Ractangle * (+77)
08:36:27 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138954&oldid=138839 * PkmnQ * (+60) /* Execution */
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10:17:03 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138955&oldid=138953 * Ractangle * (+133)
10:21:27 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138956&oldid=138955 * Ractangle * (+158) /* Syntax */
10:22:16 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138957&oldid=138956 * Ractangle * (+19) /* Syntax */
10:32:52 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138958&oldid=138957 * Ractangle * (+134) /* Syntax */
10:33:12 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138959&oldid=138958 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Syntax */
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11:12:35 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138960&oldid=138947 * Yayimhere * (+39) /* turing completeness proof(WIP) */
11:23:45 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138961&oldid=138960 * Yayimhere * (+373)
11:24:00 <wWwwW> does this proof work?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/X%E2%81%BFx%E2%82%99
11:29:14 <esolangs> [[Yayimhere-like esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138962&oldid=138908 * Yayimhere * (+10) /* examples */ make all example's be title
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12:20:14 <wWwwW> idk if its correwct
12:33:11 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138963&oldid=138961 * Yayimhere * (+24) /* turing completeness proof(WIP) */
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12:35:42 <esolangs> [[401]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138964&oldid=137076 * Yayimhere * (+6)
12:47:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138965&oldid=129369 * None1 * (+2292) /* Computational class */ Turing completeness proof?
12:49:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138966&oldid=138965 * None1 * (+22) /* Computational class */
12:50:34 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138967&oldid=132466 * None1 * (-71) /* 2KWLang */ Quine no longer work in 2KWLang
12:51:30 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138968&oldid=138904 * Yayimhere * (+179)
12:52:47 <esolangs> [[2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138969&oldid=124856 * None1 * (+217)
12:54:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138970&oldid=138966 * None1 * (+3)
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13:18:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Isomorphism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138971&oldid=138599 * PrySigneToFry * (+652) /* In fact, it isn't the real "Esolang". */ new section
13:20:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eugene * New user account
13:21:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Isomorphism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138972&oldid=138971 * Yayimhere * (+111) /* In fact, it isn't the real "Esolang". */
13:21:42 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138973&oldid=136431 * None1 * (+13) /* External resources */
13:22:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138974&oldid=138750 * PrySigneToFry * (+2) Warring
13:23:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138975&oldid=138672 * Eugene * (+349) /* Introductions */
13:29:34 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138976 * Yayimhere * (+785) Created page with "'''Savage Operator''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] inspired by [[Unlambda]] == syntax form == a operator is applied with [[Prefix Notation]] and brackets around a string <code>e</code>: `e* == operators == some of these are represented with [[Lam
13:37:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gd auto level]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138977 * PrySigneToFry * (+1553) Created page with "== Changed thing and added thing by PSTF == === Suggestion === In fact, trajectory can be marked with , but not "t". === Added commands === # <code><nowiki>"</nowiki></code> will let player to collect all characters to the stack that quoted. # <code><no
13:42:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Look.png]]": [[Look!]] logo (cat program)
13:43:10 <esolangs> [[Look!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138979&oldid=123652 * None1 * (+43)
13:43:21 <esolangs> [[Look!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138980&oldid=138979 * None1 * (+6)
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13:51:35 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138981&oldid=138572 * Dylanbeattie * (+107) Add Rockstar with explanation.
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13:56:45 <esolangs> [[Istoriya]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138982 * Eugene * (+24991) Created page with "'''Istoriya''' is a language based on Ukrainian history lines from External independent evaluation for Ukrainian schools. The language is not [[Turing-complete]]. == Principles == A line is a single command or a single character. First line of a program in Istoriya m
14:00:41 <esolangs> [[Istoriya]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138983&oldid=138982 * Eugene * (+71) categories
14:03:23 <esolangs> [[Aheui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138984&oldid=135626 * PrySigneToFry * (+139) If I did wrong, undo this.
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14:14:02 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138985&oldid=138891 * Yayimhere * (+22)
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14:30:49 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138986&oldid=138963 * Yayimhere * (-5) /* turing completeness proof(WIP) */
14:31:10 <wWwwW> sorry for asking agian but. is the proof correct?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/X%E2%81%BFx%E2%82%99#turing_completeness_proof
15:08:57 <sprout> looks like a reduction in the wrong direction to me
15:09:45 <sprout> you don't need to show underload can run your programs since we know that, it's TC
15:10:02 <wWwwW> im trying to show that it is esolang
15:10:18 <sprout> you need to show that your language can run underload, then it's TC, given that underload is TC
15:10:40 <wWwwW> i translated each underload command
15:10:52 <sprout> okay, then it's correct
15:11:08 <sprout> well, the direction is
15:11:36 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138987&oldid=138986 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* turing completeness proof */
15:12:24 <sprout> but it says 'translation to underload'
15:12:31 <sprout> that's the wrong direction
15:12:52 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138988&oldid=138987 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* turing completeness proof */
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15:25:47 <wWwwW> ooops disconnected
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15:27:38 <sprout> now you need to show the minimal subset of underload you translated is TC
15:28:01 <wWwwW> its...on the underlaod page
15:29:59 <sprout> ah, you could repeat that
15:30:26 <sprout> anyway, gl. not going to check the argument
15:30:32 <sprout> maybe someone else will
15:30:43 <esolangs> [[User:Eugene]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=138989 * Eugene * (+363) Created page with "Hello from Ukraine. My interest in esoteric programming is that it can be a nice pun to use a program in such a language in literature or art. Ideally, in Ukrainian one, thus I search languages that use Ukrainian or are verbal language neutral. So far I found only [[
15:32:38 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138990&oldid=138988 * Yayimhere * (+32) /* turing completeness proof */
15:33:26 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138991&oldid=138990 * Yayimhere * (+23) /* turing completeness proof */
15:37:14 <esolangs> [[Istoriya]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138992&oldid=138983 * Eugene * (+151)
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15:45:04 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138993&oldid=138959 * Ractangle * (+92)
15:47:30 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138994&oldid=138993 * Ractangle * (+38) /* Syntax */
15:48:28 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138995&oldid=138991 * Yayimhere * (+73) /* turing completeness proof */
15:49:09 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138996&oldid=138994 * Ractangle * (+62)
15:50:21 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138997&oldid=138995 * Yayimhere * (+6) /* turing completeness proof */
15:57:00 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138998&oldid=138996 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Examples */
15:57:08 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=138999&oldid=138998 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Examples */
15:59:13 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139000&oldid=138999 * Ractangle * (+92) /* Syntax */
16:00:44 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139001&oldid=138997 * Yayimhere * (-8) /* examples */
16:02:37 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139002&oldid=139001 * Yayimhere * (+58) /* examples */
16:02:51 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139003&oldid=139002 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* examples */
16:03:45 <esolangs> [[Isomorphism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139004&oldid=134850 * Corbin * (+73) Add disambiguation here. We may also later want a page for languages which focus on isomorphisms, like Boomerang or Janus.
16:03:47 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139005&oldid=139003 * Yayimhere * (+24) /* turing completeness proof */
16:09:05 <wWwwW> what computational class do you guys suspect dis to be?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/W)
16:11:32 <korvo> There's not enough information provided. Can the machine even halt?
16:11:59 <wWwwW> but i want to add that
16:12:39 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139006&oldid=138883 * Yayimhere * (+43)
16:13:40 <korvo> I'm going to guess that it's decideable in doubly-exponential time.
16:14:04 <wWwwW> i just want to know
16:14:26 <korvo> I could say that I picked a class that isn't practical to test for but is still decidable in order to be infuriating~
16:14:56 <korvo> I think that we can first slide all of the IPs off the board except for those which potentially go infinite, akin to Tarski's quantifier elimination.
16:15:34 <korvo> And then we can use cycle-counting to determine where any infinite loops might happen and then do a sort of exponential boost to force them to converge to a single behavior.
16:15:53 <korvo> This sounds a lot like Tarski's approach to the real numbers, which is also doubly-exponential.
16:16:45 <korvo> Having multiple IPs fundamentally doesn't make this harder, because we can simulate all IPs at once. If they were concurrent then we'd have issues.
16:17:35 <korvo> It might be worth knowing that in the presence of *true* threads, the number of possible orderings of execution is superfactorial in the number of instructions being threaded.
16:18:03 <korvo> It's kind of a jawdropping bound and I don't know anything else quite like it. In that case, I still think it'd be decidable but I have no clue how to quantify the time taken.
16:20:15 <wWwwW> they are concurrent
16:21:01 <korvo> The page doesn't make the small-step behavior clear. On a single step of an emulator, do we handle one IP or all IPs?
16:21:33 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139007&oldid=139006 * Yayimhere * (+31)
16:21:53 <korvo> Okay. Then I'm sticking with my first story. That's definitely simpler than if only one IP can run. Threading is very hard to reason about.
16:22:34 <wWwwW> i said all. all pointers are ran at one step
16:24:23 <korvo> Yes, and I'm saying that that means to please ignore the superfactorial guess and consider the doubly-exponential guess instead.
16:24:46 <wWwwW> im still confsed but ok
16:25:14 <korvo> Oh, also, what happens if two IPs intersect?
16:25:28 <wWwwW> i need to specify on page
16:25:51 <wWwwW> the one from left or bottom is moved to the upper left corner of program
16:26:51 <esolangs> [[W)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139008&oldid=139007 * Yayimhere * (+105)
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16:29:09 <korvo> It's progress. A lot of these questions will arise naturally if you try implementing your language.
16:29:25 <wWwwW> im stupid and tired
16:29:31 <wWwwW> and i don want to tbh
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16:40:19 <esolangs> [[Larry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139009&oldid=138838 * ArsenicCatnip * (+538) Added implementation references. Gonna need to clean up the introduction
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16:57:46 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139010&oldid=139005 * Yayimhere * (-8) /* turing completeness proof */
16:57:56 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139011&oldid=139010 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
16:58:54 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139012&oldid=139011 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* turing completeness proof */
16:59:43 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139013&oldid=139012 * Yayimhere * (+14)
17:04:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139014&oldid=138919 * Eugene * (+15) /* I */
17:05:10 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139015&oldid=139013 * Yayimhere * (+43)
17:05:52 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139016&oldid=139015 * Yayimhere * (+39) /* syntax */
17:07:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sashko875 * New user account
17:07:32 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139017&oldid=139016 * Yayimhere * (-35) /* examples */
17:08:59 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139018&oldid=139017 * Yayimhere * (-76) /* examples */
17:09:16 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139019&oldid=139018 * Yayimhere * (+27) /* syntax */
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17:10:40 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139020&oldid=139019 * Yayimhere * (-15) /* syntax */
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17:14:32 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139021&oldid=139000 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Syntax */
17:15:10 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139022&oldid=139021 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Truth-machine without loop */
17:15:59 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139023&oldid=139022 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Examples */
17:17:51 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139024&oldid=139023 * Ractangle * (+10) /* Syntax */
17:18:19 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139025&oldid=139024 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Truth-machine without loopCitation neded */
17:18:53 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139026&oldid=139025 * Ractangle * (-22) /* Syntax */
17:19:14 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139027&oldid=139020 * Yayimhere * (+66)
17:19:45 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139028&oldid=139026 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Examples */
17:21:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139029&oldid=138975 * Sashko875 * (+119)
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17:35:39 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139030&oldid=139028 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Truth-machine[Citation needed] */
17:37:20 <esolangs> [[Up down up up left]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139031 * Yayimhere * (+244) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''Up down up up left''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its just [[Underload]] but with a single change: <code>^</code> will now just append the top of stack to program the append another <code>^</code> to the program"
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17:53:46 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139032&oldid=139030 * Ractangle * (+42) /* Syntax */
17:54:17 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139033&oldid=139032 * Ractangle * (+19) /* Syntax */
17:54:50 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139034&oldid=139033 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Syntax */
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19:05:27 <esolangs> [[User:Eugene]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139035&oldid=138989 * Ractangle * (+5)
19:07:48 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139036&oldid=138985 * Ractangle * (+25)
19:10:18 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139037&oldid=139034 * Ractangle * (-28) /* Examples */
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20:11:30 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139038&oldid=132262 * Aadenboy * (+0) /* Hello, World! Program */ fixed instruction
20:11:42 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139039&oldid=138973 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* External resources */ Wayback
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22:00:54 <esolangs> [[Burroughs 5000 assembly language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139040 * Sgeo * (+52) It's esoteric that there exist computers for which there is no assembly language.
22:01:37 <Sgeo> That's... probably not actually suitable for the wiki unless "This language doesn't exist" is a language
22:02:06 <Sgeo> Also the ALGOL variant it used did have a way to specify machine instructions, so... maybe that does count as an assembly language?
22:13:16 <b_jonas> I don't see why there could be articles for nonexistant or even theoretically impossible languages. There are already some joke pages like that, and a proof or even conjecture that some properties can't be combined in a language could be interesting.
22:13:42 <b_jonas> (Plus there's of course the nonexistent https://esolangs.org/wiki/PL/MIX )
22:14:22 <b_jonas> oh, and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Kvikkalkul might be nonexistent
22:15:26 <Sgeo> Someone could in theory create a B5000 assembly language I think, it's just... designed for more high level languages
22:15:59 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/List]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139041&oldid=137449 * B jonas * (+87) +Kvikkalkul
22:16:46 <b_jonas> Sgeo: sure, and someone could create interpreters for many of the large number of boring languages with short articles here.
22:17:10 <b_jonas> most of them just have a short and often ambiguous description with no examples and no explanation for why it's interesting
22:17:32 <b_jonas> would you count those as nonexistant?
22:19:26 <Sgeo> I want to draw the "existence" line at whether or not there's an unambiguous definition. But I'd guess some real languages have ambiguous definitions. And also someone would try to make a language whose existence is ambiguous, by potentially but not necessarily being well specified
22:19:43 <Sgeo> Maybe a part of the definition relies on an open math problem?
22:20:08 <Sgeo> I bet that already, ehm. Exists. though
22:22:29 <b_jonas> but something close to it using fermat's last conjecture existed somewhere I think
22:24:43 <b_jonas> I can't find it, and I don't think it was done in an interesting way either, so something like that may have potential
22:27:32 <Sgeo> What's the largest twin prime pair we know?
22:27:52 <Sgeo> I... can't promise I'd actually come up with an interesting way of doing things
22:32:05 <b_jonas> I mean, if you want an open math problem, then we have ordinary languages like unlambda that may or may not be able to solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time
22:32:22 <JAA> https://t5k.org/largest.html claims 2996863034895 * 2^1290000 +- 1.
22:32:35 <b_jonas> and they may or may not be able to test graph isomorphism in polynomial time
22:33:16 <b_jonas> (my guess is of course can't solve NP-complete and can solve grpah isomorphism)
22:36:00 <Sgeo> I could do something like say it's a brainfuck derivative where the symbol for "+" for example is log_2 of the largest twin prime center, "-" is log_2 of the second largest
22:36:13 <Sgeo> That feels a bit... trivial
22:41:47 <b_jonas> how I think one language does it is that the source code must contain the solution for a hard problem. how you could do that properly is to require that the source code contains a proof for a hard Ramsey number, because you can validate that quickly, and it's at least guaranteed that a proof exists (though only an exponential-sized proof is guaranteed admittedly).
22:42:53 <b_jonas> and unlike your example, the meaning of the program won't depend on what we have computed so far, the semantics is well-defined in an absolute sense
22:43:59 <b_jonas> btw Sgeo the problem with that brainfuck derivative is that brainfuck is known to be Turing-complete if you can only increment each cell once an never decrement it, so you can program it that way
22:44:40 <Sgeo> I meant "largest that exists". It's an open question if there are a finite number of twin primes. So if there's an infinite number there is no usable language, but there's a possibility to program in it but not known how
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22:44:55 <Sgeo> I should look up Ramsey number
22:45:58 <b_jonas> Sgeo: what matters here is that it's something we know how to compute in bounded time in theory, but that bounded time is exponentially large and large enough that it's not feasable on current computers. substitute the proof of who has winning or drawing strategy in chess if you prefer.
22:48:26 <Sgeo> I think you have a different idea of what this language should do than I had
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00:10:52 <esolangs> [[User:Eugene]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139042&oldid=139035 * Ais523 * (-5) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/139035|139035]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ractangle|Ractangle]] ([[User talk:Ractangle|talk]]) introducing errors into the page (AFAICT Eugene did not make Istoriya, only document it)
00:15:23 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139043&oldid=132981 * Ais523 * (+29) /* The Battle */ clarify
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02:13:44 <korvo> I did think the twin-prime thing was cool. I'm not going to add MtG to the BB Gauge because it's rather big and copyrighted, but maybe I should add Wang tiles.
02:14:29 <korvo> I had considered doing Post correspondence machines but I think that the functor from Turing machines to PCPs is rather too good for this; I'm not sure how to handwrite a better PCP.
02:15:07 <korvo> Er, *PCMs. A PCP is quite different.
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03:34:39 <esolangs> [[Mathfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139044 * Sgeo * (+739) Mathfuck
03:35:10 <Sgeo> It's possible that it's ... more solvable than expected if mod256 makes things... more predictable
03:36:08 <Sgeo> Also not sure how to deal with the possibility of overlaps. For the twin prime ones, I could say that they could be second largest twin prime pair
03:38:11 <Sgeo> Doesn't really fit "We don't know if it's a language or not"
03:39:01 <korvo> I don't know about odd perfect numbers, but the others are good (mod 256). Collatz counterexamples must be multiples of 3 and twin primes must be of the form 6k ± 1.
04:05:19 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm wasting the beautiful name Mathfuck. Especially since this is BitChanger (I just looked for something with fewer commands)
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04:53:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139045 * Yayimhere * (+141) Created page with "is this allowed?: 1 = 1 1. can i do that? [~~~~]"
05:04:20 <zzo38> With GCC, can you use -no-integrated-cpp and -wrapper to add extra steps before and after the preprocessor? Can this or something similar be used with Clang also?
05:08:02 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139046&oldid=138976 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* syntax form */
05:09:24 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139047&oldid=139046 * Yayimhere * (+82) /* operators */
05:09:35 <wWwwW> is a loop possible?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Savage_Operator
05:14:52 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139048&oldid=139047 * Yayimhere * (+1)
05:15:12 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139049&oldid=139048 * Yayimhere * (+17)
05:17:24 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139050&oldid=139049 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* syntax form */
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05:20:00 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139051&oldid=139050 * Yayimhere * (+54)
05:29:05 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139052&oldid=139051 * Yayimhere * (+94)
05:33:50 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139053&oldid=139052 * Yayimhere * (+21)
05:34:31 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139054&oldid=139053 * Yayimhere * (-194) /* operators */
05:40:44 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139055&oldid=139054 * Yayimhere * (+0)
05:45:00 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139056&oldid=139055 * Yayimhere * (+17)
05:50:48 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139057&oldid=139056 * Yayimhere * (+283) /* operators */
05:51:52 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139058&oldid=139057 * Yayimhere * (+85) /* turing completeness proof */
05:52:57 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139059&oldid=139058 * Yayimhere * (+47) /* turing completeness proof */
05:53:04 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139060&oldid=139059 * Yayimhere * (+0)
05:53:11 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139061&oldid=139060 * Yayimhere * (+0)
05:55:53 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139062&oldid=139061 * Yayimhere * (+8) /* turing completeness proof */
05:56:39 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139063&oldid=139062 * Yayimhere * (+0)
06:00:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unlambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139064&oldid=24258 * Yayimhere * (+46) /* My attempt at compiling Unlambda to D */
06:03:45 <esolangs> [[Prefix notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139065&oldid=133810 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* Examples */ the space made more sense based on the syntax
06:09:21 -!- mynery has changed nick to myname.
06:09:36 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139066&oldid=139063 * Yayimhere * (-68)
06:10:58 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139067&oldid=139066 * Yayimhere * (+48) /* turing completeness proof */
06:14:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, but you can use gcc -E to stop after running the preprocessor, and use gcc $basename.i or gcc -x cpp-output $filename to pass an already preprocessed C file (and similarly for C++), so you can just do all the preprocessing steps manually that way before you compile
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06:21:00 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139068&oldid=139067 * Yayimhere * (+21)
06:22:07 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139069&oldid=139068 * Yayimhere * (+85)
06:49:41 <wWwwW> are there any esolangs that use surreal numbers?
06:51:00 <wWwwW> also if i understand
06:51:17 <wWwwW> are just numbers holding not only reals
06:51:22 <wWwwW> but also infinty's
06:51:29 <wWwwW> and infinitly small numberas
07:05:30 <esolangs> [[Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139070&oldid=138472 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+20)
07:07:07 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139071&oldid=137045 * Yayimhere * (+0)
07:07:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139072&oldid=139036 * Yayimhere * (+13) /* eoslangs */
07:07:42 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139073&oldid=139072 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* eoslangs */
07:09:14 <esolangs> [[Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139074&oldid=139070 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-11) /* Examples */
07:12:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139075&oldid=139045 * Yayimhere * (+128)
07:13:32 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139076&oldid=139037 * Yayimhere * (+40) /* Examples */
07:15:09 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139077&oldid=139076 * Yayimhere * (+56) /* Examples */
07:15:44 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139078&oldid=139077 * Yayimhere * (+5) /* Looping counter(not printing) */
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07:37:08 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139079&oldid=139078 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
07:38:18 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139080&oldid=139079 * Ractangle * (+26)
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07:41:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139081&oldid=139075 * Ractangle * (+174)
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07:45:18 <esolangs> [[Linear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139082 * Yayimhere * (+730) Created page with "'''Linear''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] == syntax == the program is made up of a list of lists separated by spaces. lists themselves are set up like this: n, m where <code>n and m</code> are positive integers == semantics == for every n, and m we do thi
07:46:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139083&oldid=138502 * Ractangle * (+4) /* can somebody explain why cant i make DISPLAYTITLE work properly */
07:47:02 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139084&oldid=137597 * Ractangle * (+28) /* Category */
07:49:28 <esolangs> [[EML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139085&oldid=68231 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Describe EML. */
07:59:34 <esolangs> [[F uck you]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139086&oldid=126515 * Yayimhere * (-34)
08:01:21 <esolangs> [[StatiC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139087 * Squidmanescape * (+455) Created page with "'''StatiC''' is a C-like language which is entirely static. It doesn't allocate or deallocate memory. == Syntax == The syntax is like C except you can't use malloc() and free(). You also can't use any standard functions unless you define them yourself, which mean
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08:02:51 <esolangs> [[StatiC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139088&oldid=139087 * Squidmanescape * (-2) /* Integer */
08:04:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[2D]] to [[User:Ractangle/2D]]
08:04:45 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139091&oldid=139089 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Examples */
08:05:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139092&oldid=139091 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Examples */
08:07:54 <esolangs> [[StatiC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139093&oldid=139088 * Squidmanescape * (+268) /* Syntax */
08:08:19 <esolangs> [[StatiC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139094&oldid=139093 * Squidmanescape * (+29) /* Syntax */
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09:12:25 <esolangs> [[NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139095&oldid=139080 * Yayimhere * (-60) /* Looping counter(not printing) */
09:13:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139096&oldid=139081 * Yayimhere * (+139)
09:15:19 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139097&oldid=138950 * Ractangle * (+10) /* Esolangs */
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10:22:25 <esolangs> [[AI made dis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139098 * Yayimhere * (+3093) Created page with "'''AI made dis''' is a esolang created by chatGPT. it was prompted by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its named FROSTWIRE-666 although i will use that name elsewhere == Memory Model == The language operates on 666 nodes, each capable of holding an integer. <br> These are ind
10:25:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[User:Ractangle/2D]] to [[Literally just a turing machine]]
10:29:03 <wWwwW> does the proof of TC'ness work?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Savage_Operator
10:30:57 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139101&oldid=139099 * Ractangle * (-261)
10:32:17 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139102&oldid=139101 * Yayimhere * (-11) /* Examples */ categories should not be in pre
10:33:50 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139103&oldid=139102 * Ractangle * (-40) /* Examples */
10:34:51 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139104&oldid=139103 * Ractangle * (-52) /* Commands */
10:35:11 <esolangs> [[Bubblegum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139105&oldid=90078 * PkmnQ * (-28) /* Reference implementation */ Though likely, still not proven Turing-complete
10:37:49 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139106&oldid=139104 * Ractangle * (+62) /* Examples */
10:38:04 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139107&oldid=139106 * Ractangle * (-30) /* Truth-machine */
10:38:36 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139108&oldid=139107 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Commands */
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10:54:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:SchrderBernstein theorem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139109 * Yayimhere * (+120) Created page with "delete dis plz. empty [~~~~]"
11:03:07 <esolangs> [[Brainshit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139110 * Yayimhere * (+347) Created page with "'''Brainshit''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]], its just [[BF]] but different == changes == first of all commands are changed like this: + -> { - -> } [ -> [ ] -> ] > -> ( < -> ) also all brackets must be matched. also this is not allowed: [(]) so
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11:24:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Yayimhere * uploaded "[[File:RECT4n=GLE.jpg]]"
11:25:02 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139112&oldid=138575 * Yayimhere * (+39)
11:27:07 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139113&oldid=139112 * Yayimhere * (+31) /* real tiles */
11:31:53 <wWwwW> is this proof correct?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Savage_Operator
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11:57:52 <esolangs> [[Literally just a turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139114&oldid=139108 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
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12:09:38 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139115&oldid=139073 * Ractangle * (+16) /* esolangs */
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12:16:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139116&oldid=139096 * Ractangle * (+139)
12:16:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139117&oldid=139116 * Ractangle * (+45)
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12:42:59 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139118&oldid=139115 * Yayimhere * (+13) /* esolangs */
12:43:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139119&oldid=139117 * Ractangle * (+165)
12:43:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139120&oldid=139119 * Ractangle * (+4)
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12:44:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139121&oldid=139120 * Yayimhere * (+30)
12:45:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139122&oldid=139121 * Yayimhere * (+2)
12:47:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:NRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139123&oldid=139122 * Ractangle * (+6)
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13:07:44 <esolangs> [[Func()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139124&oldid=137202 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* examples */
13:07:54 <esolangs> [[Func()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139125&oldid=139124 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
13:16:24 <esolangs> [[Wiki/pedia/.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139126&oldid=138062 * Yayimhere * (+2)
13:18:40 <esolangs> [[!()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139127&oldid=136747 * Yayimhere * (-3)
13:19:10 <esolangs> [[!()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139128&oldid=139127 * Yayimhere * (+1)
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13:25:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139129&oldid=138469 * PrySigneToFry * (+641)
13:27:42 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139130&oldid=132875 * PrySigneToFry * (+58)
13:28:28 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139131&oldid=138468 * PrySigneToFry * (+44)
13:31:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated ZhongWen/None1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139132 * PrySigneToFry * (+518) Created page with "I registered to Baidu, so I has this version: <pre> "said SREC > M" __ > + > > "Qing T Qing Pa I"D->a>1 =# --PPPPPPPP..."
13:40:26 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139133&oldid=139131 * MihaiEso * (+46)
13:41:08 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139134&oldid=139133 * MihaiEso * (-3) Oops, AutoHotkey done that.
13:43:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139135 * Yayimhere * (+135) Created page with "then what would dis program do?: ^^ [~~~~]"
13:43:42 <wWwwW> i have a weak esolang concept
13:43:48 <wWwwW> can anybody help me with expanding it?
13:46:14 <sprout> ah, the concept of a plan. good
13:47:05 <wWwwW> shall i say the concept or....?
13:52:02 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/MihaiEso]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139136 * MihaiEso * (+1294) Created page with "Crazier version of [[Translated ZhongWen/None1]] 1. Take the semiproduct <pre> "said SREC > M" __ > + > > "Qing T Qing Pa I"D->a>1 =# --PPPPP..."
13:53:01 <sprout> this is irc, don't ask to ask
13:54:34 <wWwwW> my concept: a esolang where memory is sotred in the IP
13:54:49 <wWwwW> this is no asciidots
14:04:42 <esolangs> [[Translated !English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139137&oldid=125757 * MihaiEso * (+20)
14:08:09 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139138&oldid=138981 * MihaiEso * (+78) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:13:53 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139139&oldid=139027 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* turing completeness proof */
14:14:41 <esolangs> [[Xx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139140&oldid=139139 * Yayimhere * (+35) /* syntax */
14:17:02 <esolangs> [[Translated CreativeASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139141 * MihaiEso * (+3127) Created page with "There are a lot of horribly translated languages that the originals look like English and are translated with like Baidu. We are translating a high-level assembly language with ModernMT! 1. Take this example: <pre> @ A calculator program in CreativeASM
14:18:11 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139142&oldid=137002 * MihaiEso * (+78)
14:22:39 <esolangs> [[Translated CreativeASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139143&oldid=139141 * MihaiEso * (+67)
14:27:48 <esolangs> [[AmBored++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139144&oldid=68984 * Ractangle * (+30) /* See also */
14:28:54 <esolangs> [[AmBored--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139145&oldid=68985 * Ractangle * (+30) /* See also */
14:42:31 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq/brainfuck quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139146 * GUAqwq * (+9496) Created page with "My quine, inspired by [[User:Hakerh400/How_to_write_quines]]. >>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
14:43:04 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139147&oldid=138129 * GUAqwq * (+48)
14:43:13 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139148&oldid=139147 * GUAqwq * (+2)
14:45:26 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso/Sandbox 3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139149&oldid=130853 * MihaiEso * (+9)
14:45:58 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso/Sandbox 3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139150&oldid=139149 * MihaiEso * (+0)
14:52:09 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139151&oldid=131363 * MihaiEso * (+15)
14:52:19 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139152&oldid=139151 * MihaiEso * (+4)
14:56:18 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Wrong Wrap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139153 * PkmnQ * (+1143) Created page with "[[Wrong Wrap]] is an esolang derived from an attempt to create a 2D language where NOP is the only instruction. == Execution == In programs, the only thing that matters is the length of each line. Non-newline characters are all interpreted as NOPs. We'll tak
14:59:02 <esolangs> [[AI made dis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139154&oldid=139098 * MihaiEso * (+97)
14:59:42 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq/brainfuck quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139155&oldid=139146 * Cycwin * (+739)
15:01:01 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Wrong Wrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139156&oldid=139153 * MihaiEso * (+2)
15:01:45 <esolangs> [[Translated CreativeASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139157&oldid=139143 * MihaiEso * (+22)
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15:25:56 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139158 * Xff * (+597) Created page with "'''Sorry''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its under load but with one change that makes Sorry have only two commands == information == there is one change. now the <code>^</code> does dis: :pop top 4 elements. the first popped is a second popped is b, third poppe
15:33:36 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139159&oldid=139118 * Xff * (+12) /* esolangs */
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15:39:24 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139160&oldid=139158 * Xff * (+128)
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15:42:01 <korvo> wWwwW: If you say so. A common theme in your writing is a lack of clarity and foundations; it's not clear *what* your languages manipulate.
15:44:06 <esolangs> [[Arrow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139161&oldid=97018 * Ractangle * (+13) /* External resources */
15:47:09 <korvo> If I assume Unlambda's semantics, then I think I understand your Savage Operator claim, but I have to make that assumption; I have to copy information about another language into your setting.
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15:49:17 <esolangs> [[B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139162&oldid=116357 * Ractangle * (+10)
15:49:41 <PCWWWWW> i have gotten strangely addicted to underload: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sorry
15:49:59 <esolangs> [[B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139163&oldid=139162 * Ractangle * (-10)
15:53:17 <PCWWWWW> im like 99.999% sure that sorry is TC but idk
15:56:38 <esolangs> [[BF instruction extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139164&oldid=116858 * Ractangle * (+22) /* See also */
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16:03:10 <esolangs> [[BFM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139165&oldid=30457 * Ractangle * (+22)
16:07:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TotallyNotSethP * New user account
16:08:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139166&oldid=139029 * TotallyNotSethP * (+176) added Seth introduction
16:14:02 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139167&oldid=139160 * Xff * (+13)
16:18:04 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139168&oldid=139167 * Xff * (+0)
16:27:08 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139169&oldid=138783 * Ractangle * (+97) /* Syntax */
16:27:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139170&oldid=139169 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Disan Count (kinda) */
16:27:40 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139171&oldid=139170 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Syntax */
16:27:51 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139172&oldid=139171 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Truth-machine */
16:28:03 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139173&oldid=139172 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Hello, world! */
16:28:47 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139174&oldid=139173 * Ractangle * (-26) /* Examples */
16:29:41 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139175&oldid=139174 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Interpreter */
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16:33:13 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139176&oldid=139175 * Ractangle * (+100) /* Interpreter */
16:33:32 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139177&oldid=139176 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Interpreter */
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16:34:50 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139178&oldid=139177 * Ractangle * (+2) I forgot :
16:36:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139179 * Xff * (+51) Created page with "proof of turing completeness(WIP): [...] -> \n...)"
16:37:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139180&oldid=139179 * Xff * (+16)
16:37:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139181&oldid=139180 * Xff * (+16)
16:39:09 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139182&oldid=139178 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Hello, world! */
16:40:09 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139183&oldid=139182 * Ractangle * (+135) /* Interpreter */
16:40:25 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139184&oldid=139183 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Interpreter */
16:40:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139185&oldid=139181 * Xff * (+81)
16:50:20 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139186&oldid=139184 * Ractangle * (+253) /* Move data from a cell to an another cell */
16:50:55 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139187&oldid=139186 * Ractangle * (-55) /* Interpreter */
16:52:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139188&oldid=139185 * Ractangle * (+226)
16:56:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139189&oldid=139188 * Xff * (+65)
16:56:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139190&oldid=139189 * Xff * (-5)
16:59:26 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139191&oldid=138725 * Ractangle * (+216) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
17:00:58 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139192&oldid=139191 * Ractangle * (+53) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
17:01:19 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139193&oldid=139192 * Ractangle * (+3) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
17:01:39 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139194&oldid=139193 * Ractangle * (+5) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
17:02:29 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139195&oldid=139194 * Ractangle * (-253) i am removing the CLFCE section because i think it sucks
17:03:31 <esolangs> [[Arrow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139196&oldid=139161 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* External resources */ Wayback
17:04:54 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139197&oldid=139195 * Xff * (+253) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/139195|139195]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ractangle|Ractangle]] ([[User talk:Ractangle|talk]]) because you cant delete something cuz YOU think it sucks. when it comes to this make a talk
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17:08:06 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139198&oldid=139197 * Ractangle * (-1) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
17:08:34 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139199&oldid=139168 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) Link
17:10:51 <esolangs> [[Linear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139200&oldid=139082 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Categories
17:12:10 <esolangs> [[Mathfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139201&oldid=139044 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+139) Categories
17:12:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139202&oldid=139190 * Ractangle * (+177)
17:15:42 <esolangs> [[Brainshit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139203&oldid=139110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+211) Categories
17:16:12 <esolangs> [[Mathfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139204&oldid=139201 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Category
17:17:54 <esolangs> [[Istoriya]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139205&oldid=138992 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
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17:21:05 <esolangs> [[Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139206&oldid=99774 * Ractangle * (+20) /* Examples */
17:21:21 <esolangs> [[Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139207&oldid=139206 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Examples */
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17:24:18 <esolangs> [[Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139208&oldid=139207 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Examples */
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17:28:09 <esolangs> [[BitZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139209&oldid=87629 * Ractangle * (+22) /* External resources */
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17:47:18 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139210&oldid=139187 * Xff * (+180) /* Examples */
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17:54:15 <wWwwW> korvo what question are you answering?
17:54:33 <korvo> wWwwW: TC-ness of Savage Operator.
17:55:19 <wWwwW> which part is confusing?
17:57:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139211&oldid=139202 * Yayimhere * (+109)
17:58:08 <korvo> It's not confusing, it's unclear.
18:03:58 <esolangs> [[Yaren]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139212&oldid=94314 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+190) Rewrite, add interpreter
18:05:27 <korvo> I'm not sure how the append operations would work. I'm also not clear on how ∞ works; for example, what is ∞i equivalent to?
18:06:15 <wWwwW> so appendsaion would be like dis lambda: λx.λy.x y
18:06:44 <wWwwW> would make the ∞ actually be ran instead of just be a string of opertors
18:09:11 <wWwwW> i wil edit the page
18:09:48 <wWwwW> the alphja append is just the same but the y is moved inside the brackets of y
18:12:32 <korvo> Mm. Okay, I think I understand how I would interpret this, but now I'm no longer certain that the S and K given are correct. I'd need to see you work out the reduction rules first.
18:12:50 <korvo> I'm not going to ask you to do that, because it could be a lot of work, but I hope that it's obvious *why* I can't just guess.
18:12:55 <wWwwW> gimme an expression
18:13:11 <korvo> How about SKK? It should reduce to I.
18:13:30 <wWwwW> so lets take the expression
18:13:40 <wWwwW> in savage opperator
18:14:02 <wWwwW> cuz K don work for two inputs
18:16:03 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139213&oldid=139069 * Yayimhere * (+15) /* turing completeness proof */
18:16:23 <wWwwW> gimme somethin else plz
18:19:50 <korvo> How about SII? I hope you're seeing the power of implementing a language rather than merely guessing at it.
18:19:52 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139214&oldid=139213 * Yayimhere * (-36)
18:20:20 <wWwwW> your missing an input to S
18:21:49 <korvo> Why wasn't that a problem for SKK?
18:22:16 <wWwwW> i though it was KSK
18:22:29 <wWwwW> how that works in combinatory logic
18:23:02 <wWwwW> ig the last could just be a like
18:23:08 <wWwwW> just "placeholder"
18:23:12 <wWwwW> or what you would say
18:23:15 <korvo> Well, Kxy -> x, right? So what happens with KSK?
18:23:30 <wWwwW> in normal combinatory logic?
18:23:47 <korvo> Why would this not be normal combinatory logic?
18:23:52 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139215&oldid=139214 * Yayimhere * (+8) /* operators */
18:24:36 <wWwwW> with to input the first one would be ignored
18:25:35 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139216&oldid=139215 * Yayimhere * (+37) /* turing completeness proof */
18:26:27 <korvo> So the behavior of K should change depending on how many arguments it's applied to?
18:26:43 <wWwwW> cuz¨the a is for adding the y as input
18:27:04 <korvo> Well, that would be a reason for this not to be normal combinatory logic. Combinators should normally be extensional.
18:27:15 <wWwwW> this is just an application
18:27:21 <wWwwW> i could generalize
18:27:54 <korvo> Like, when I said that SKK -> I, I should have said SKKx -> Ix for all x. And that's because SKKx -> Kx(Kx) -> x, and also Ix -> x. Does this make sense?
18:28:11 <wWwwW> im kinda streseed gimme sec
18:28:19 <wWwwW> since a is just to appl,y
18:32:26 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139217&oldid=139216 * Yayimhere * (-520) /* turing completeness proof */
18:32:38 <esolangs> [[Robot Is Chill]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139218&oldid=130155 * Ataberk * (+45) added external github link
18:33:40 <korvo> Do you want to understand the rest of the TC proof anyway? You hadn't constructed the important part yet.
18:34:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ataberk * moved [[Robot Is Chill]] to [[ROBOT IS CHILL]]: Misspelled title: per https://discord.com/channels/842220825226379265/853048386311028746/1284582140993867847
18:35:00 <korvo> You don't just need to implement S and K. You need to show that your implementation is *faithful*, meaning that for every legal reduction of S and K in combinators, there's a legal reduction in Savage Operator which performs equivalent moves.
18:35:06 <esolangs> [[ROBOT IS CHILL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139221&oldid=139219 * Ataberk * (+0) change to 'ROBOT IS CHILL'
18:35:19 <korvo> Like, your SKK needs to reduce to something like I using Savage Operator's rules alone.
18:35:36 <korvo> Don't ask to ask; just ask.
18:36:19 <wWwwW> but like. you can infintly nest (λx. ), (λx.λy. x y), and (λx. x)
18:36:28 <wWwwW> those lambda expressions
18:37:31 <korvo> That first one isn't an expression of lambda calculus.
18:37:34 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139222&oldid=139217 * Yayimhere * (+0)
18:38:15 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139223&oldid=139222 * Yayimhere * (-6) /* operators */
18:39:57 <korvo> Like, use De Bruijn indices. The second expression is λλ(10) and the third expression is λ0. The first expression is λ... and then what?
18:40:35 <wWwwW> wait the third one
18:40:50 <wWwwW> did you swap third
18:42:08 <korvo> No, I think I got it right. De Bruijn indices are notoriously tricky, though. Think of a De Bruijn index as counting the number of lambda binders to the left in-between the variable's binding and its usage.
18:42:40 <korvo> λ0 is definitely the way to express the identity function. I count starting from 0, which isn't universal; some people would write those as λ1 and λλ(21) respectively.
18:44:16 <wWwwW> how does that work?
18:44:23 <korvo> Anyway, the rest of the TC proof would start by constructing SII. I picked it because SIIx -> Ix(Ix) -> x(x). It applies things to themselves! This is a "Turing bird" and it's not always possible to build.
18:44:51 <korvo> Oh, I don't know. That's what I'm saying; your (λx.) operator doesn't do something I understand in terms of LC.
18:45:36 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139224&oldid=139223 * Yayimhere * (+11) /* operators */
18:46:12 <korvo> Anyway, then notice that SII(SII) reduces to itself. This is sometimes called an "omega" expression.
18:46:49 <korvo> And then the TC-ness of SK is that we can't decide whether an expression is reducible to something that can't be reduced further, or whether reduction goes forever in a loop.
18:47:19 <wWwwW> ik that fact for once!dis is from when i wroked on why tho
18:49:52 <esolangs> [[BrainfuckXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139225&oldid=39212 * Ractangle * (+22) /* External resources */
18:52:08 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139226&oldid=44896 * Ractangle * (+22)
18:52:37 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139227&oldid=139224 * Yayimhere * (+17)
18:53:19 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139228&oldid=139227 * Yayimhere * (+1)
18:56:38 <wWwwW> but is netseting of λ(0) and λλ(1 0) tc?
18:56:41 <korvo> No worries. Glad that it's making more sense.
18:57:59 <korvo> No, that basis isn't TC. In terms of combinators, it's not stronger than BCI.
18:59:56 <korvo> Because all you can do is identity and composition, like the BI basis, or like the theory of categories. Because B has a couple different ways of being phrased, we usually include C too for a saner basis.
19:00:23 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139229&oldid=139228 * Yayimhere * (+61)
19:00:31 <wWwwW> wait now it should work
19:01:36 <esolangs> [[Braintrust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139230&oldid=35662 * Ractangle * (+12)
19:02:00 <wWwwW> that shouldnt work
19:02:08 <wWwwW> im sad for msome reason:(
19:03:14 <korvo> K gives you the ability to delete a value from the context. To make something like that, you need like λλ1, something that has a binder which goes unused.
19:03:55 <korvo> Also, S gives you the ability to duplicate a value. To make something like that, you'd need to use an index twice.
19:04:36 <wWwwW> starting indexing at 0
19:05:17 <korvo> It's the flip of K. Swapped arguments. It'll still work, as long as you keep in mind that it can't do the whole "konstant" thing that K is normally used for.
19:05:31 <korvo> Sometimes you'll see KI used for this.
19:06:32 <korvo> Anyway, that's why λ0 and λλ(10) can't be a basis. Both of these are *linear*; a linear term uses every bound variable exactly once.
19:07:08 <korvo> And no basis of linear terms can be more expressive than BCI, because (hard part) there's an algorithm that turns any linear type signature into a BCI expression.
19:09:39 <wWwwW> is the correct one
19:09:46 <wWwwW> we would copy a term
19:11:16 <korvo> I don't think so, just from counting binders. Also note where parens are; they indicate applications, not abstractions.
19:11:29 <korvo> Like, I'm reading those as λλλ(10) and λλλ(00) respectively.
19:12:06 <wWwwW> korvo: re: and that is it
19:12:32 <korvo> In something like S, which I'll write λλλ((20)(10)) we see that index 0 is used twice at a single level of abstraction. That's a non-linear use.
19:14:00 <esolangs> [[CompressedBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139231&oldid=118924 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Interpreter */
19:14:12 <wWwwW> im so stupid and dumb
19:14:43 <korvo> No, you're *inexperienced*. And I'm not really doing anything else right now.
19:15:27 <korvo> Copied it and applied it to itself. I don't know whether that's capable of building TC behavior, but I'm sure somebody's worked it out somewhere.
19:16:23 <wWwwW> i think ive got a sketch of S
19:16:53 <wWwwW> from now on ill bne suing normal lambda calculus
19:16:58 <wWwwW> to demonstarte my point
19:18:18 <wWwwW> i have an operaotr i like to add
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19:19:10 <wWwwW> λλ(1 0) is one bit of S
19:19:38 <esolangs> [[Developers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139232&oldid=58335 * Ractangle * (+23)
19:19:53 <wWwwW> my braaaain is fried ._.
19:20:44 <esolangs> [[DirectBrainFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139233&oldid=114430 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Implementations */
19:22:49 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139234&oldid=139229 * Yayimhere * (+68) /* operators */
19:25:01 <korvo> BCKW makes it more obvious how K and S/W serve those purposes of deleting and copying. BC should hopefully be understandable as a fragment of BCI and not just random combinators.
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19:25:28 <wWwwW> i understand B and C i think
19:25:52 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139235&oldid=139234 * Yayimhere * (+98) /* operators */
19:26:54 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139236&oldid=139235 * Yayimhere * (+20) /* operators */
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19:31:42 <korvo> Not at all. Remember, parentheses are application.
19:32:13 <korvo> Let's rename those variables. B g f x = g (f x); C f x y = f y x
19:32:38 <korvo> B is composition, like you'd find in a category. It takes two functions and glues them together, passing the output of one to the input of another.
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19:33:02 <korvo> C is called a "flip". It takes a two-argument function and swaps the order in which the arguments will be given.
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19:34:49 <korvo> This should also give you a feel for why BCI is limited. All we can do is identity, composition, and flip; we can take any arrangement of inputs and return all of them as outputs, but that's all.
19:35:40 <wWwwW38> if you consider the inputs
19:36:09 <korvo> Yep. It can only express permutations of that set. It is complete for permutations, though.
19:36:54 <korvo> Have you seen Kleene's parameter theorem yet? Also called the Smn theorem. It's a very general statement about how to build functions.
19:37:33 <korvo> You need something like BCI, but you also need to be able to delete and copy values. And then Kleene shows how adding recursion lets us compute stuff.
19:39:19 <korvo> No worries; I don't have anything else. Maybe it's time to take a break. Stand up, stretch, get more water, that sort of thing.
19:39:59 <wWwwW38> maybe i should stop listenging to insane trap msuic while doing this
19:41:07 <esolangs> [[Emo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139237&oldid=43122 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
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19:45:46 <korvo> BI can't build C. Really. What's going on is that BI is for categories, and BCI is for categories with "finite products".
19:46:34 <esolangs> [[Extended Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139238&oldid=49019 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Type III */
19:46:47 <esolangs> [[Extended Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139239&oldid=139238 * Ractangle * (-12) /* Type III */
19:47:04 <korvo> Hmmm. That's a good question. Note BCKW has to build I too.
19:47:21 <esolangs> [[Extended Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139240&oldid=139239 * Ractangle * (-52) /* Hello World! */
19:48:02 <korvo> So can BKW build I and then C? Dunno, could be an interesting research question.
19:49:55 <wWwwW38> W=a' e ( b' i (a' (d x i y) (d x i y) ) )
19:51:30 <esolangs> [[FJ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139241&oldid=135503 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
19:53:07 <wWwwW38> W=a' e ( b' i (a' (d x i y) (d x i y) ) )
19:54:31 <esolangs> [[Fuck4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139242&oldid=32618 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
19:55:13 <wWwwW38> W=a' e ( b' i (a' (d x i y) (d x i y) ) )
19:55:26 <esolangs> [[FukYorBrane]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139243&oldid=54980 * Ractangle * (+20)
19:55:36 <esolangs> [[FukYorBrane]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139244&oldid=139243 * Ractangle * (+2)
19:56:00 <korvo> If you say so. I'm not going to verify this, because I haven't written an interpreter. But I appreciate how much work you put into thinking about things and looking at your foundations.
19:57:36 <esolangs> [[Golfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139245&oldid=68198 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Partial implementation in C++ */
19:57:41 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139246&oldid=139236 * Yayimhere * (-17) /* operators */
19:58:02 <wWwwW38> c in unlambda is C in BCKW?
19:59:23 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139247&oldid=139246 * Yayimhere * (+37) /* operators */
19:59:26 <esolangs> [[Harmful Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139248&oldid=41547 * Ractangle * (+23)
20:00:22 <esolangs> [[HQ9Cfuckfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139249&oldid=136625 * Ractangle * (+22)
20:00:48 <esolangs> [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139250&oldid=54535 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
20:01:28 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139251&oldid=139247 * Yayimhere * (+18) /* operators */
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20:03:50 <esolangs> [[ITMR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139252&oldid=123449 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Hello world program */
20:04:20 <esolangs> [[JSFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139253&oldid=126877 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Computational Class */
20:07:15 <esolangs> [[Malbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139254&oldid=120611 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
20:08:55 <esolangs> [[Minimal-2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139255&oldid=46279 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
20:09:24 <esolangs> [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139256&oldid=79475 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
20:14:55 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139257&oldid=139097 * Ractangle * (+111)
20:15:41 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139258&oldid=139257 * Ractangle * (+40)
20:17:36 <esolangs> [[Not a brainfuck derivative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139259&oldid=90069 * Ractangle * (+23)
20:20:17 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139260&oldid=87082 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Interpreters */
20:21:23 <esolangs> [[PenisScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139261&oldid=103699 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
20:23:02 <esolangs> [[Pointer-ng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139262&oldid=70962 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Interpreters */
20:24:21 <esolangs> [[Random Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139263&oldid=114995 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Interpreters */
20:25:30 <esolangs> [[RedefineFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139264&oldid=124852 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Example(s) */
20:26:39 <esolangs> [[ReverseFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139265&oldid=137889 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
20:30:36 <esolangs> [[Stacked Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139266&oldid=70990 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Computational class */
20:31:13 <esolangs> [[Surreal Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139267&oldid=44865 * Ractangle * (+23)
20:32:04 <esolangs> [[Ternary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139268&oldid=109064 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
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20:40:33 <esolangs> [[XMLfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139269&oldid=43016 * Ractangle * (+23) i am tierd
20:41:52 <esolangs> [[Zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139270&oldid=41272 * Ractangle * (+23) It's almost over
20:45:20 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139271&oldid=133268 * Ractangle * (-2) it's over
20:46:54 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139272&oldid=139258 * Ractangle * (+41)
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21:28:04 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139273 * Ractangle * (+33) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title={{Spoiler|}}}}"
21:31:31 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139274&oldid=139273 * Ractangle * (+79)
21:38:42 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139275&oldid=139274 * Ractangle * (+145) /* Syntax */
21:39:21 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139276&oldid=139275 * Ractangle * (+0)
21:39:38 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139277&oldid=139276 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Challenge */
21:40:06 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139278&oldid=139277 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Challenge */
21:40:32 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139279&oldid=139278 * Ractangle * (+12)
21:45:32 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139280&oldid=139279 * Ractangle * (+59) /* Challenge */
21:48:38 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139281&oldid=139280 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Challenge */
21:50:42 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139282&oldid=139281 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Challenge */
21:50:54 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139283&oldid=139282 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Challenge */
21:53:09 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139284&oldid=139283 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Challenge */
21:53:27 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139285&oldid=139284 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Challenge */
21:57:27 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139286&oldid=139285 * Ractangle * (+18)
22:00:24 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139287&oldid=139272 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Esolangs */
22:00:41 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139288&oldid=139287 * Ractangle * (-29) /* Esolangs */
22:01:59 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139289&oldid=139288 * Ractangle * (+47)
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22:21:58 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139290&oldid=139286 * Ractangle * (+5)
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22:23:36 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139291&oldid=139290 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Challenge */
22:25:06 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139292&oldid=139291 * Ractangle * (+15)
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22:30:39 <esolangs> [[Spoiler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139293 * Ractangle * (+22) Redirected page to [[Spoiler:]]
22:54:39 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139294&oldid=139292 * Ractangle * (+289)
22:56:31 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139295&oldid=139294 * Ractangle * (+43) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
22:58:11 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139296&oldid=139295 * Ractangle * (+76) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
22:58:46 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139297&oldid=139296 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:03:52 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139298&oldid=139297 * RainbowDash * (+61) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:09:57 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139299&oldid=139298 * Ractangle * (+109) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:11:24 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139300&oldid=139299 * Ractangle * (+94) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:11:47 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139301&oldid=139300 * RainbowDash * (+5) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:13:21 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139302&oldid=139301 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:14:01 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139303&oldid=139302 * Ractangle * (-15) I will come up with more syntax later
23:14:22 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139304&oldid=139303 * RainbowDash * (+23) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:15:19 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139305&oldid=139289 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Esolangs */
23:18:34 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139306&oldid=139304 * Ractangle * (+60) /* Challenge */
23:20:03 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139307&oldid=138768 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Spam */
23:20:35 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139308&oldid=139307 * Ractangle * (+13) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
23:21:06 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139309&oldid=139308 * Ractangle * (+2) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
23:23:47 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139310&oldid=138666 * Ractangle * (+60) /* Splinter */
23:27:47 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139311&oldid=139306 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Challenge */
23:28:18 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139312&oldid=139309 * Ractangle * (+5) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
23:32:55 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139313&oldid=139311 * Ractangle * (+214) /* Guessed parts of syntax */
23:35:35 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139314&oldid=139313 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Syntax */
23:51:31 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139315&oldid=139314 * RainbowDash * (+71) /* Syntax */
23:52:29 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139316&oldid=139315 * RainbowDash * (+2) /* Syntax */
23:54:15 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139317&oldid=139316 * RainbowDash * (-66) /* Syntax */
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00:17:12 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139318&oldid=139317 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+111) Categories
00:17:35 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139319&oldid=139318 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18)
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03:08:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139320&oldid=138198 * Rosenthal * (-4) Update link to its redirect target
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03:41:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139321&oldid=139135 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+367)
03:41:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139322&oldid=139321 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+17)
03:42:03 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139323&oldid=139251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) Categories
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04:08:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139324&oldid=139322 * Yayimhere * (+102)
04:13:17 <esolangs> [[Brainshit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139325&oldid=139203 * Yayimhere * (+32)
04:22:19 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139326&oldid=139323 * Yayimhere * (+9) /* operators */
04:23:05 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139327&oldid=139326 * Yayimhere * (+23) /* operators */
04:26:02 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139328&oldid=139327 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* operators */
04:33:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139329&oldid=139320 * Rosenthal * (+2) Separate implementations by different authors
04:38:45 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139330&oldid=139328 * Yayimhere * (+252) /* operators */
04:38:53 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139331&oldid=139330 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* operators */
04:41:56 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139332&oldid=139331 * Yayimhere * (+147)
04:42:14 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139333&oldid=139332 * Yayimhere * (+7) /* exclusions */
04:42:26 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139334&oldid=139333 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* exclusions */
04:52:04 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139335&oldid=139334 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* operators */
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05:07:26 <wWwwW> we discussed stuff with
05:07:46 <wWwwW> do they need to have the order they have
05:14:01 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139336&oldid=139335 * Yayimhere * (+47) /* operators */
05:14:03 <korvo> No, the orders "BCKW", "BCI", "SK", and "SKI" are all traditional. You'll sometimes see people put them in other orders.
05:14:25 <esolangs> [[Domino Crisis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139337&oldid=135598 * PrySigneToFry * (+684) To proof that it is Turing-Complete
05:14:42 <wWwwW> take input in this order:
05:15:05 <wWwwW> it still does x (y z)
05:15:16 <wWwwW> but inputs are taken in a different order
05:15:32 <korvo> Sure. It depends on what's available. This is the power of C; in this case, CB is the flip of B.
05:16:01 <wWwwW> on the savage bapge
05:16:13 <wWwwW> nearly everything ids a lambda expression
05:16:21 <wWwwW> as that we have rules for what can apply
05:17:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139338&oldid=138374 * PrySigneToFry * (+744) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */ new section
05:18:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139339&oldid=139338 * Yayimhere * (+103) /* Mihai is unbanned! */
05:18:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139340&oldid=139339 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* Mihai is unbanned! */
05:20:11 <wWwwW> i still wonder if BKWI can get C
05:21:51 <wWwwW> it keeps me up at night
05:24:07 <korvo> I don't think so. I thought about it a bit more. BWKI is a theory of categories with finite products and a "diagonal", which is how category theorists talk about W's action.
05:25:25 <korvo> And it's folklore that this isn't quite enough to talk about flips, which imply that the product has the ability to swap its left-hand and right-hand components.
05:25:54 <wWwwW> how even in programming we have "folklore"
05:26:05 <korvo> I know it's not an understandable explanation. I just want to assure you that it's probably not possible so that you don't lose more sleep.
05:28:13 <wWwwW> you know how some conjectures n' stuff takes years to proove or stuff
05:28:32 <wWwwW> then there's just dis community with a single person proving that black is TC
05:28:51 <wWwwW> this group of ppl that is the esolang community is just insane
05:29:19 <korvo> Every proven conjecture has some single person somewhere at the end, too. Look at Fermat's Last Theorem for a famous recent example.
05:29:41 <wWwwW> so many ppl worked on it before
05:29:55 <wWwwW> ive prooved like 90 procent of my esolangs TC
05:30:04 <korvo> Also, if it helps, most programmers refuse to learn category theory or any other formal methods. Programming and software engineering are depressingly non-formal disciplines.
05:30:04 <wWwwW> (ignore my old ones)
05:30:40 <wWwwW> you have a problem
05:31:12 <wWwwW> and its a undecidable problem to see if that problem is decidable not
05:31:22 <wWwwW> *deciadeable or not
05:32:39 <korvo> Not exactly. We have to be more precise with terminology.
05:32:55 <wWwwW> i will try to be better
05:33:03 <wWwwW> say we have a problem P
05:33:14 <korvo> So, it's known statically whether something is a "decision problem". This is literally just a yes-or-no question about some inputs.
05:33:26 <esolangs> [[BrainTangle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139341 * PrySigneToFry * (+2880) Created page with "BrainTangle is an Esolang invented by PSTF and his (because he don't use ChatGPT now). == Syntax Overview == === Data Types === BrainTangle only has one data type: a single-character string (a "tangle"). Operations on tangles are performed by manipulating the
05:33:41 <esolangs> [[BrainTangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139342&oldid=139341 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
05:33:59 <korvo> If we say this problem is "undecidable", what we mean is that the *set of inputs* is undecidable, and more specifically that we can't decide whether an input is in the yes-set.
05:34:31 <korvo> You'll see terminology like "semidecidable" which is more specific about the no-set.
05:35:12 <korvo> Now, that all said, we can have sets of decision problems. There's no reason we can't have an undecidable subset of such a set.
05:38:56 <korvo> Here's what I think is a real example from complexity theory. Let P/poly be the class P, but answers to each problem may be non-uniform, giving a polynomial amount of advice to each input.
05:40:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gd auto level]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139343&oldid=138977 * PrySigneToFry * (+33)
05:40:23 <korvo> Also let TALLY be the class of unary languages. TALLY is a subclass of P/poly. You can think of TALLY problems as counting up the size of the input and making a decision just based on that, so the poly advice just has to tell you whether this size is acceptable.
05:40:57 <korvo> But, uh, TALLY contains Halting for unary TMs, so it's undecidable whether an arbitrary program in P/poly is also in TALLY.
05:41:06 <wWwwW> side qeustion: none of tally are TC right?
05:42:50 <wWwwW> so its undecidable
05:47:13 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139344&oldid=139329 * Rosenthal * (+1) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */ Fix missing shift marker
05:58:56 <korvo> Yes, because SK is TC.
05:59:18 <wWwwW> also i found a little "quirk" if you will with k
05:59:26 <wWwwW> K can be passed to itself FOREVER
05:59:33 <wWwwW> KKKKKKKKKKKKKK....
06:00:37 <esolangs> [[^]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139345 * MihaiEso * (+2222) Created page with "'''^''' is a special language for all Chinese people! == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! !! English !! Meaning |- | "[]" || Print "[text]" || Prints a string of text |- | [] || Output [variable] || Outputs the value of a variable |- | [] || Input [var
06:01:02 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139346&oldid=139142 * MihaiEso * (+59)
06:01:17 <wWwwW> YESYEYSYEYSYEYSYEYSYEYSYYSYEY
06:01:38 <wWwwW> IN Savage Operator
06:01:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139347&oldid=139014 * MihaiEso * (+14) /* Non-alphabetic */
06:03:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139348&oldid=139347 * Yayimhere * (+22) /* S */
06:06:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139349&oldid=139340 * MihaiEso * (+164) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */
06:06:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139350&oldid=139349 * MihaiEso * (+1) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */
06:10:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139351&oldid=139344 * Rosenthal * (+11) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */ Split into `x = not x` and `y = not x`
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06:40:19 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139352&oldid=139351 * Rosenthal * (+1) /* x = x and y (boolean, logical) */ Fix destination classifications
06:43:04 <esolangs> [[Category:CJK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139353&oldid=8237 * MihaiEso * (+19)
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07:18:13 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139354&oldid=139352 * Rosenthal * (+33) /* x = x or y (boolean, logical) */ Split by destination
07:21:12 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139355 * PrySigneToFry * (+5536) Created page with "BubbleLang is designed by PSTF. == Name == I don't know why, but I like this name because I like the shape of circle and sphere. == Sources of inspiration == I let my to generate an Esolang, and I inspired from that. I'm also inspired from Python and C++.
07:26:21 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139356&oldid=139354 * Rosenthal * (-46) Combine z = x or y sections
07:33:51 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139357&oldid=139199 * Xff * (+1) /* information */
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07:37:49 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139358&oldid=139355 * MihaiEso * (+29) /* Categories */
07:38:08 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139359&oldid=139152 * MihaiEso * (+14)
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07:47:40 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139360&oldid=127758 * MihaiEso * (+49) /* Esoteric languages invented by AI */
07:52:30 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139361&oldid=139357 * Xff * (+175)
07:53:19 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139362&oldid=139361 * Xff * (+26)
07:57:40 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139363&oldid=139362 * Xff * (+0) /* information */
07:59:35 <esolangs> [[Srry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139364 * Xff * (+353) Created page with "'''srry''' is [[Sorry]] but with one change. == the change == now we only have <code>[]</code> with a conditional. if they hold two nothings(two spaces) then we will do <code>^</code> else we will do <code>[]</code>. also it pops top. so now <code>[''x'']</code> is: [ ][''x'']
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08:01:24 <esolangs> [[2d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139365&oldid=136378 * Ais523 * (-29) rm hatnote similarly named language was renamed
08:01:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Ractangle/2D]]": cross-namespace redirect left over after a page was deuserfied
08:02:28 <esolangs> [[2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139366&oldid=139090 * Ais523 * (+14) bypass double redirect
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08:15:42 <esolangs> [[Brains***]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139367 * MihaiEso * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainshit]]
08:15:52 <esolangs> [[Brains**t]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139368 * MihaiEso * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainshit]]
08:17:28 <esolangs> [[Brainshit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139369&oldid=139325 * Yayimhere * (-19)
08:24:24 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139370&oldid=139336 * Yayimhere * (+289) /* operators */
08:32:16 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139371&oldid=139138 * MihaiEso * (+389) /* Horribly translated variants */
08:41:40 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139372 * Yayimhere * (+26) Redirected page to [[Unassignable]]
08:48:41 <wWwwW> i got an rlly weird esolang idea
08:48:46 <wWwwW> its like a 2d esolang
08:49:00 <wWwwW> it uses combinatory logic style operators
08:49:29 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139373 * Yayimhere * (+312) Created page with "'''FrontFlip''' is a version of [[Backflip]] with two new commands == new commands == there are two new commands: {| class="wikitable" |- ! command !! description |- | [ || copy it and the comand right to it in pointer direction and turn 90 degrees clockwise |- | ^
08:49:35 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139374&oldid=139373 * Yayimhere * (+1)
08:50:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139375&oldid=139159 * Yayimhere * (+11)
08:50:35 <esolangs> [[Srry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139376&oldid=139364 * Yayimhere * (+69)
08:52:33 <wWwwW> and korvo if your readin dis my goal is to see what the difference between 2d and 1d is and how far you can go with each
08:54:16 <esolangs> [[And then]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139377&oldid=73088 * Ractangle * (+23)
08:55:23 <esolangs> [[BF-RLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139378&oldid=66268 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
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09:00:27 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139379&oldid=138850 * Ractangle * (-204)
09:00:35 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139380&oldid=139379 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello World */
09:00:43 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139381&oldid=139380 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Infinite Loop */
09:01:12 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139382&oldid=139381 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Examples */
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09:01:36 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139383&oldid=139382 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Commands */
09:02:31 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139384&oldid=138190 * Ractangle * (+1) /* CLFCE */
09:06:15 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139385&oldid=139198 * Ractangle * (-39) fixed the problem with the /* CLFCE */ section
09:09:03 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139386&oldid=139385 * Ractangle * (+24) /* CLFCE */
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09:37:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139387&oldid=139210 * Ractangle * (+8) /* computational class */
09:37:38 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139388&oldid=139387 * Ractangle * (+0) /* computational class */
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09:58:31 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139389&oldid=139358 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
09:59:30 <esolangs> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139390&oldid=66248 * Ractangle * (+22) /* To Do */
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10:04:56 <esolangs> [[13ial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139391 * Ractangle * (+115) Created page with "'''13ial''' (or '''13 instruction assembly language''') is basicly self explanatory. It's a 13 instruction assembly"
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10:36:08 <esolangs> [[13ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139392&oldid=139391 * Ractangle * (+39)
10:36:58 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139393&oldid=138968 * Yayimhere * (+89) /* commands */
10:39:08 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139394&oldid=139356 * Rosenthal * (+8) /* if (x) { code1 } else { code2 } */ Divide different implementations
10:39:48 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139395&oldid=139393 * Yayimhere * (+87) /* commands */
10:46:14 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139396&oldid=139389 * PrySigneToFry * (-29) Just inspired from, not really generated by AI
10:47:29 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139397&oldid=139395 * Yayimhere * (+117)
10:48:30 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139398&oldid=137334 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Commands */
10:49:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139399&oldid=139350 * PrySigneToFry * (+672)
10:50:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139400&oldid=139398 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Commands */
10:53:41 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139401&oldid=139400 * Ractangle * (-42) /* Truth-machine */
10:54:12 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139402&oldid=139401 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Truth-machine */
10:55:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139403&oldid=139402 * Ractangle * (-98) If there is no "End of road". The program will go back to the start (and ignoring the Start of road)
10:57:28 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139404&oldid=139403 * Ractangle * (+0) IT'S I [[User:Ractangle]]
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10:59:52 <esolangs> [[2 Player]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139405&oldid=139397 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* examples */
11:00:25 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139406&oldid=139394 * Rosenthal * (+79) Consistently separate implementations and format attributions
11:03:03 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139407&oldid=139312 * Ractangle * (-1) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
11:03:26 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139408&oldid=139407 * Ractangle * (-12) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
11:04:36 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139409&oldid=139310 * Ractangle * (-13) /* {{Spoiler|}} */
11:04:55 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139410&oldid=139409 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Spoiler: */
11:05:06 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139411&oldid=139319 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Challenge */
11:05:58 <esolangs> [[Spoiler:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139412&oldid=139411 * Ractangle * (-1)
11:07:07 <wWwwW> hey ais523 what do you think of my underload minimazation?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sorry
11:15:54 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139413&oldid=139360 * Ractangle * (+40) /* Esolang interpreters generated by AI */
11:16:27 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139414&oldid=139413 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Esolang interpreters generated by AI */
11:17:17 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139415&oldid=139359 * Ractangle * (+5)
11:20:53 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139416&oldid=133988 * Ractangle * (+22) /* CATEGORIES */
11:22:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139417&oldid=139348 * PrySigneToFry * (+17)
11:25:01 <esolangs> [[User:Noner Kao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139418&oldid=53977 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Projects */
11:27:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139419&oldid=128486 * Ractangle * (+223)
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11:33:22 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139420&oldid=139406 * Rosenthal * (+4) /* x = pseudo-random number */ Divide unrelated implementations
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11:44:48 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139421&oldid=139420 * Rosenthal * (-3) /* Divmod algorithm */ Fix typos
11:48:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139422&oldid=139421 * Rosenthal * (-22) Remove redundant algorithm from headers
11:49:44 <int-e> Hmm. There really should be a better word than "illusion" to describe this thing: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/duckduckbunny.png (It is pretty cool (despite the (I assumed) edited clouds in the left part). Haven't watched the video...)
11:51:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck Python interpreter (ChatGPT)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139423 * Corbin * (+145) In this page, what does "optimized" mean?
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11:57:53 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139424&oldid=139422 * Rosenthal * (+29) /* Print value of cell x as number (8-bit) */ Attribute author
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12:16:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139425&oldid=139424 * Rosenthal * (-46) /* Input a decimal number */ Unindent code
12:19:45 <b_jonas> int-e: hehe, that's similar to the two horse-riders illusion I think
12:24:13 <b_jonas> two horse-riders (exists with both donkeys and horses, in lots of variants) => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN3z7eIqRg4
12:24:15 <PCWWWWW> wut would happen if SKI or something was evaluated lazily
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12:29:08 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe today's your introduction to Church-Rosser properties and confluence. In short: no, the results of evaluating combinators don't depend on evaluation order, but that's only because they don't have effects.
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12:31:28 <int-e> Some strategies will fail to find normal forms when they exist though. KI(SII(SII)) has normal form I but innermost reduction reduces it to itself in a couple of steps.
12:32:30 <int-e> No, SII is a normal form
12:32:51 <int-e> it can't be reduced further
12:33:11 <int-e> In this context, -> usually denotes an actual reduction step.
12:34:56 <int-e> SII(SII) -> I(SII)(I(SII)) -> I(SII)(SII) -> SII(SII) using innermost steps
12:35:25 <wWwwW> SII(SII) => SII(SII)
12:35:39 <wWwwW> where => is the "final" reduction
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12:38:34 <wWwwW> so you discard one input
12:38:45 <wWwwW> and return K on the non discareded one
12:38:53 <int-e> So U = KK? That gives you KKI = K so it's essentially just SKI again.
12:39:17 <int-e> KKS = K then and you get I = SKK
12:39:34 <wWwwW> but you dont have K
12:39:40 <int-e> You have US = KKS = K
12:40:07 <int-e> or UU = KKU = K if you prefer that
12:40:31 <wWwwW> wait so you replace the S with U
12:41:02 <int-e> Well, Ux = KKx = K for any x.
12:41:48 <wWwwW> (sorry for asking so much im rlly into combinatory logic rn)
12:41:54 <wWwwW> but would RS be TC
12:42:18 <wWwwW> where B is from BCKW
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12:43:20 <wWwwW> and no K is not applied to x
12:44:04 <wWwwW> K not applied to x yea
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12:50:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck Python interpreter (ChatGPT)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139426&oldid=139423 * MihaiEso * (+145)
12:50:46 <int-e> I don't know about that one.
12:51:20 <wWwwW> lemme check real fast
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12:58:51 <esolangs> [[How dare you f*** the brain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139427 * MihaiEso * (+41) Redirected page to [[How dare you fuck the brain]]
13:01:29 <int-e> You have Rxy = xS which is something you don't get with S alone. But it's weaker than K. It may still be TC but it won't just reuse the fact that SK is TC; some extra work is necessary. It's also not obviously non-TC... AFAICS we don't even know that for the S combinator all by itself.
13:02:45 <wWwwW> im prety sure with the Q operator it would work. Q x y = y x
13:03:37 <int-e> remember that QRxy is ((QR)x)y
13:03:54 <int-e> QRxy = xRy... and now it depends on x.
13:04:08 <wWwwW> then Q(Rxy) = Sx then right?
13:04:13 <int-e> Q(Rxy) = Q(xS) and it still depends on x.
13:05:45 <int-e> Even if you had ꙮxy = Sx and S the status (TC or not) would be unclear to me.
13:06:19 <HackEso> limerick//A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet.
13:06:34 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
13:06:51 <HackEso> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
13:07:30 <int-e> It's our favorite letter. ;-) (I'm making this up, but it's fair to say that we have a bit of culture around it.)
13:08:06 <wWwwW> im making a esolang based on dis disscusion btw
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13:10:48 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139428 * Yayimhere * (+258) Created page with "'''FROSTWIRE-666''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its some combinators for [[Combinatory logic]] == combinators == FROSTWIRE-666 has these operators: S from SKI R x = B (K) x (S) Q x y = y x x y=S (K x y) G x=x x T x y z=B ( x y) x z"
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13:12:18 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139429&oldid=139428 * Yayimhere * (+13) /* combinators */
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13:14:13 <int-e> Hmm, would you rather make three dozen esolangs, or one that people actually care about?
13:14:40 <wWwwW> what time of the day is it?
13:15:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139430&oldid=128898 * Rosenthal * (+639) Ask about strange bitwise NOT
13:15:32 <int-e> time zones are a thing so I thought this was the best possible answer
13:16:08 <int-e> you asked a question with no well-defined answer
13:16:11 <wWwwW> the answer to your question is dependent on timezone
13:16:32 <wWwwW> θ you could see on combinatory page
13:16:40 <wWwwW> combinatory logic page
13:17:37 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139431&oldid=139429 * Yayimhere * (+39)
13:18:04 <HackEso> 2024-09-15 13:18:03.701 +0000 UTC September 15 Sunday 2024-W37-7
13:18:24 <b_jonas> ``` TZ="Europe/Helsinki" datei # if you have a specific timezone in mind
13:18:27 <HackEso> 2024-09-15 16:18:26.283 +0300 EEST September 15 Sunday 2024-W37-7
13:18:53 <b_jonas> also dateu for guaranteed UTC; datei actually uses the locale-dependent timezone, that just happens to default to UTC on HackEso these days
13:19:10 <b_jonas> um, no, technically not *locale*-dependent, but dependent on your environment and the fallback default in /etc
13:20:45 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139432&oldid=139431 * Yayimhere * (-11)
13:22:04 <esolangs> [[User:Eugene]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139433&oldid=139042 * Eugene * (+4)
13:22:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kin1009 * New user account
13:24:26 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139434&oldid=139375 * Yayimhere * (+20) /* esolangs */
13:31:56 <korvo> wWwwW: Combinatory logic isn't an esolang. In fact, it's not a language. I'd say that a better way to understand it is as a type or a pattern of constructors that can be put on top of types.
13:32:22 <korvo> esolangs: If combinatory logic is not a language, what is it?
13:32:33 <b_jonas> combinatory logic is multiple esolangs, if you choose a basis and an evaluation strategy then it's a specific esolang
13:32:49 <korvo> Aw, the RAG bot's not working, I guess.
13:34:06 <esolangs> korvo: Combinatory logic is a **formal model of computation**. It's a way to describe how programs work, not a programming language itself. Think of it like a blueprint for how to build a computer program. It uses a set of rules and symbols to represent computations, and it's powerful enough to capture the essence of any program, even those written in...
13:34:12 <b_jonas> I like {B,C,K,W,I} as the basis and leftmost inner (eager/unlambda) evolution
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13:35:04 <korvo> wWwwW: In particular, the terms we've been using the past few days are the *initial model*. All that means is, for any other model, there's a way to map each term into that other model.
13:35:34 <b_jonas> but these days I prefer multi-argument instead of single-argument lambdas, which corresonds mostly to the Amicus language instead of traditional Church style combinatory logic
13:35:49 <korvo> So, like, suppose I implement S and K in Python. Then I can map any term of S and K into Python using that implementation, and it'll still behave as expected.
13:35:53 <b_jonas> well, Amicus without numbers
13:36:15 <korvo> (Like int-e says, "as expected" includes quirks of evaluation order. You have to carefully choose which of U, Y, or Z is your fixed-point combinator.)
13:37:38 <wWwwW> ik about U i think
13:37:55 <korvo> U, Y, and Z all allow for some sort of recursion. They're very different in appearance, but that's mostly because of evaluation order.
13:38:41 <korvo> The main point to understand is that U = \(00) in lambda calculus; it applies something to itself. It's the "Turing bird" we talked about the other day.
13:38:50 <korvo> You can tell it's important because https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic has a (!!!) next to it!
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13:40:00 <korvo> No, seriously. Like, consider my beloved https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy. Here's one thing I said: "the program (comp dup apply), sometimes called the "Turing bird", will be rejected by the toolchain as ill-typed."
13:40:27 <korvo> And at the top: "each expression is an S-expression denoting a total function."
13:40:50 <korvo> Because Cammy's total, the toolchain *must* reject the Turing bird.
13:41:13 <korvo> If you want to be TC, you *must* have a way to build either U or something with similar powers, like Y or Z.
13:41:21 <korvo> That's the main point.
13:41:37 <wWwwW> i was kinda confused
13:41:47 <wWwwW> where i made *my* U
13:42:43 <korvo> No worries. That's one of the dangers of redefining standard names.
13:43:02 <wWwwW> i just choose a symbol
13:43:39 <korvo> I know. If it helps, that's how most of the combinators got standard names in the first place. I have a rule in my head that's like "C is for composition, no wait, C is for flips and B is for composition"
13:44:02 <wWwwW> ig you could use lol
13:44:11 <korvo> K is for "konstant" and I is "identity" but I have no idea about the others. Smullyan gives them beautiful bird names which are also hard to remember.
13:44:33 <korvo> Like, B is for Bluebird. Okay, which is...? Even remembering the stories in the book doesn't really help.
13:44:47 <wWwwW> symbol for my U: ɭ
13:45:24 <korvo> (The actual way to remember B is to look at it as a miniature diagram depicting the composition of two arrows.)
13:48:16 <b_jonas> I should document the B-C-K-W-I turing-completeness proof on the wiki at some point. We have https://esolangs.org/wiki/S_and_K_Turing-completeness_proof plus derivations of S and K at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#BCKW_calculus which is technically enough for a proof, but there's a direct proof that's somewhat interesting.
13:49:21 <korvo> I should formalize some of the reductions. I know it's not hard to write a casual SKI reduction tool, but I don't think there's like a Metamath or Coq database.
13:49:36 <korvo> Oh, uh, *Rocq now, right?
13:50:38 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139435&oldid=133777 * B jonas * (-8) /* BCKW calculus */
13:51:23 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139436&oldid=139396 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
13:51:28 <int-e> "The rename is currently in preparation"
13:52:29 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139437&oldid=138271 * B jonas * (+147) /* Todo */
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14:04:04 <wWwwW> i made this. doesnt this delete Bsckflip's memory limitation?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/FrontFlip
14:04:09 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139438&oldid=139374 * Yayimhere * (+0)
14:11:12 <b_jonas> korvo: SKI reduction tool => David Madore's unlambda writeup http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/#impl explains how to do that
14:12:20 <wWwwW> i still like how from a set perspective BCI can do nothing
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14:28:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:HecknTarnation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139439 * Yayimhere * (+136) Created page with "wanna make a esolang with me maybe idk ?? [:~~~~:]"
14:31:44 <korvo> b_jonas: Okay, so with careful consideration, I think that it should be *theoretically* possible to compile Unlambda to a graph-reduction machine (as efficient as GHC) after first doing a continuation-passing transformation.
14:34:00 <korvo> But it is remarkable how it was an open question just a few decades ago.
14:34:54 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139440&oldid=139371 * MihaiEso * (+514) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:35:39 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139441&oldid=139432 * Yayimhere * (+27) /* combinators */
14:37:46 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139442 * PrySigneToFry * (+809) Created page with "== Swap two numbers == <pre> function swap(x: int*, y: int*): var t: int* = x x = y y = t </pre> Thus makes these things: === Bubble sort === <pre> function swap(x: int*, y: int*): var t: int* = x x = y y = t function bubble_so
14:38:28 <b_jonas> korvo: I'm mostly thinking of the subset without c and d, so basically just ski calculus
14:39:48 <korvo> b_jonas: Ah, sure. There's a fully-worked series of articles on that here: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/compiler/
14:39:55 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139443&oldid=139436 * PrySigneToFry * (+49)
14:40:40 <ais523> <wWwwW> hey ais523 what do you think of my underload minimazation?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sorry ← it's not very Underload-like
14:40:54 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139444&oldid=139442 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
14:41:16 <wWwwW> it was just an atempt to make the minimal command set smaller
14:41:41 <ais523> what happens if you try to run a command with unmatched brackets?
14:42:16 <ais523> there's already a minimization of Underload to two commands here: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#A_two-command_basis_for_a_pure_concatenative_language
14:42:52 <b_jonas> korvo: even with the c builtin, r5rs is from 1998 so presumably they knew how to implement all that at the point, and unlambda with c (possibly without d) is trivial to compile to r5rs scheme, it has the full lexical local variables, lamdbas, and full call-with-current-continuation
14:42:55 <wWwwW> the copy push and eval command
14:43:07 <esolangs> [[Sorry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139445&oldid=139363 * Yayimhere * (+79) /* information */
14:43:21 <b_jonas> so it was known for at least 26 years, I suspect longer
14:43:30 <ais523> where M is equivalent to (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) in Underload
14:43:41 <ais523> I think it was me who designed that originally
14:43:57 <wWwwW> forget that message
14:44:22 <korvo> b_jonas: There's a question of efficiency when it comes to "sharing" (avoiding copying) in lazy contexts, and I think Scheme isn't likely to ever really solve this. I don't think typical implementations do much sharing besides lambda-lifting.
14:44:36 <ais523> the positions of most of the commands inside don't really matter, but the (~) being at the start and (!!!!!!) at the end (with length that's enough to pop all the things M pushed, plus 1) is key to how it works
14:44:48 <b_jonas> korvo: sure, scheme and unlambda are non-lazy in the same way
14:44:50 <korvo> But yeah, I see your point. In terms of compiler engineering effort, yes, Unlambda compiles easily to Scheme.
14:45:06 <wWwwW> i also minimized sorry to srry(on command but very much not underlaod like)
14:45:18 <ais523> korvo: I think most interpreters along those lines do the copying lazily and don't have other optimizations
14:46:02 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139446&oldid=139370 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* Turing-completeness */
14:46:33 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139447&oldid=139446 * Yayimhere * (+11) /* Turing-completeness */
14:46:58 <ais523> int-e: wrt combinatoric logic normal forms, I generally think of them being in normal forms if no reduction rules are even possible to apply to the term you have
14:47:17 <ais523> so SII doesn't have a normal form, the way I think about it – you can keep applying reduction rules indefinitely
14:47:37 <ais523> whereas something like K(SI) is a normal form because none of the combinators has enough arguments to do anything
14:47:57 <wWwwW> why is it that so many combinators are named after birds???
14:48:27 <korvo> wWwwW: That'd be the Smullyan book I mentioned earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Mock_a_Mockingbird
14:48:49 <int-e> ais523: No reduction rules apply to SII. You're probably confusing SII and SII(SII)
14:48:54 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139448&oldid=139443 * PrySigneToFry * (+53)
14:49:20 <int-e> (SII is what you get from \x. x x by abstraction elimination.)
14:49:31 <ais523> int-e: err, yes, I meant SII(SII)
14:49:40 <b_jonas> yup, the Mockingbird book which tells about a series of possibly enchanted forests which each have a population of birds closed to application
14:49:43 <ais523> SII is in normal form already, S takes three arguments
14:49:48 <int-e> ais523: and yes, SII(SII) doesn't have a normal form
14:49:55 <korvo> (And SII actually *captures* it, because SIIx -> x(x))
14:50:02 <b_jonas> so you can apply any bird in a forest to any other, and the result is a bird that's also in the forest
14:50:05 <wWwwW> b_jonas wow. ...why tho?
14:50:12 <ais523> I was experimenting a lot with BCKW combinator calculus recently
14:50:15 <int-e> (with standard definitions from (first-order) rewriting)
14:50:19 <wWwwW> so the forest has every combinator
14:50:23 <wWwwW> or whatever you call i
14:50:40 <b_jonas> wWwwW: because if you have a few suitable starting birds, as in S and K, and can distinguish at least two birds, then you get a Turing-complete forest to which you can compile any computation
14:50:49 <ais523> just like SK combinator calculus is neater using I, BCKW combinator calculus is also neater with a couple of extra combinators
14:51:00 <b_jonas> so one day we (at least the people in that book) might be able to replace computers with birds
14:51:27 <ais523> one is I, the other is (flip id)
14:51:45 <korvo> You laugh, but some researchers built a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer out of crabs.
14:52:19 <wWwwW> ppl do some weird stuff sometimes ._.
14:52:21 <korvo> Aren't you pumping out dozens of esolangs?
14:53:04 <b_jonas> you need the property that you can distinguish two birds otherwise you can never extract any result from the computation,
14:53:09 <wWwwW> or am i?*plays Vsauce theme*
14:53:12 <ais523> anyway, flip can be defined entirely in terms of (flip id) and (.)
14:53:22 <ais523> my notes say F = A (V V) (A A (A (V A) (A A V))), where F is flip, V is (flip id) and A is (.)
14:53:41 <wWwwW> b_jonas so with a good bird identifier and a lot of birds you have somethign TC
14:53:53 <ais523> you can also define id (unsurprisingly), it's A (V V) (A A V)
14:54:01 <b_jonas> and you need a suitable basis of starting birds to exists otherwise you could get a boring trivial forest that has just unlmabda v and i which can only do boolean multiplication, though Smullyan actually discusses a few forests that are limited in a more interesting way than just that
14:54:20 <korvo> wWwwW: Another way to understand what b_jonas is saying is that the final output of a (halted) computer is merely a projection of its internal state.
14:54:46 <wWwwW> i got a full lesson about combinator logic today
14:54:56 <korvo> You don't have to be able to read a combinator from the (finitely) many feathers of a bird, merely a way to describe the bird *in terms of other birds*. Smullyan makes this point.
14:55:15 <ais523> but the really interesting thing is that I think there's enough power to define K like this, too (although I don't have the definition worked out), using a recursive definition of the form K a b c = K (a c) b
14:55:20 <b_jonas> korvo: the bird forests contain not only halting combinators though, it's really closed to application even if the result of that application is a bird without normal form
14:55:55 <ais523> although that might need some messing around with evaluation order
14:56:05 <korvo> b_jonas: Yeah. In that sense, the birds (and combinatory logic) are actually *generalized* computation. They do more than what our physical computers can actually do.
14:56:08 <wWwwW> ais423: if so then k a b c = k a
14:56:11 <ais523> perhaps it should be K a b c = K (A a c) b so that a c doesn't go into an infinte loop
14:56:26 <ais523> I got it right first time
14:56:48 <wWwwW> i love how v is recursive
14:56:49 <ais523> so the point is that K a b = a (by definition), so K a b c = a c = K (a c) b
14:57:00 <b_jonas> that is why near the end of the book professor Griffin expresses the view that maybe there's a forest that lets you do computations that a Turing-complete computer can't do
14:57:15 <wWwwW> b_jonas whyyyyyyyyy
14:57:24 <b_jonas> but there's no definite evidence of that forest
14:57:34 <wWwwW> why cant we just have TC as being the ,ost powerfull:[
15:00:25 <b_jonas> also Smullyan is careful enough that the book doesn't say anything about the speed of computation with birds. he says that given two birds in a forest you can find their application in the forest, but no time limit for how quickly you can find it, so it's quite possible that a computation that's slow on a computer is also slow using birds.
15:00:49 <b_jonas> so there's no reason to think that birds let you do exponentially slow computations quickly.
15:02:23 <b_jonas> specifically to do an application, you first have to sing the name of the argument word to the function bird, it sings back the name of the application result, and then you have to find the bird of that name. any of these steps could take a long time.
15:02:50 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139449 * PrySigneToFry * (+2689) Created page with "[[BubbleLang]] == Simple game == <pre> from random import randint print("Copyright by Spectre 2012~2024(C)\nAll right reserved.\n") var a = input("Please Input how many life do you have(If you guessing wrong, your life will be leaves 1): ") if a == ""
15:03:16 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church-Turing_thesis encapsulates the idea that there's no "effective method" more powerful than TC. It's necessarily informal.
15:04:06 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139450&oldid=139448 * PrySigneToFry * (+45)
15:04:09 <b_jonas> and, like all important questions, there's a lot of different versions of the Church-Turing thesis that you can choose from
15:04:10 <int-e> The support is basically that people have come up with a handful of different abstract-but-realistic models of computation, and they're all equally powerful.
15:05:09 <int-e> We have more powerful models too, often involving various oracles that transcend computable functions.
15:05:45 <b_jonas> yep, that's why it's called Church-Turing: Church refers to untyped lambda calculus, while Turing refers to finite control with one writable tape Turing machines, these were found to be equivalently powerful
15:06:44 <int-e> And then there's whoever is responsible for recursive functions... (Kleene?)
15:07:39 <int-e> (Gödel too; he encoded those in PA.)
15:07:50 <b_jonas> David Madore has three different educational families of esolangs illustrating Turing-complete computations and computations more powerful than that
15:08:01 <wWwwW> Gödel is very good math person
15:08:53 <int-e> But not the greatest survivor.
15:09:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[BubbleLang/Examples]]": Copyright violation: apparently copy-paste of a copyrighted program written by someone else
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15:11:37 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139453&oldid=139450 * Ais523 * (-46) /* More example */ rm link to deleted page
15:13:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139454&oldid=139452 * PrySigneToFry * (+119)
15:15:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139455&oldid=139454 * PrySigneToFry * (+84)
15:15:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139456&oldid=139455 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
15:16:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139457&oldid=139456 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
15:16:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139458&oldid=139457 * Ais523 * (+416) /* Copyright violations */ if it has a copyright notice that's also a reason to reject it
15:18:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139459&oldid=139458 * PrySigneToFry * (+629)
15:18:50 <wWwwW> im bored and i want to make a esolang. any ideas?
15:19:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139460&oldid=139459 * PrySigneToFry * (-44) Fixed Span Script
15:19:26 <int-e> . o O ( go through your pages so far and improve them )
15:19:54 <esolangs> [[Get there]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139461&oldid=126513 * Yayimhere * (-18) /* extra things and notes */
15:20:29 <esolangs> [[Category:Multi-dimensional-languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139462&oldid=129072 * PrySigneToFry * (-84)
15:20:51 <esolangs> [[Get there]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139463&oldid=139461 * Yayimhere * (-1913) even I cant understand it now
15:21:21 <esolangs> [[F uck you]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139464&oldid=139086 * Yayimhere * (-2147) i don like it
15:21:38 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139465&oldid=139434 * Yayimhere * (-31) /* esolangs */
15:24:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139466&oldid=139460 * PrySigneToFry * (+790)
15:24:48 <esolangs> [[Walls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139467&oldid=126979 * Yayimhere * (-4)
15:25:13 <esolangs> [[S.B.M.F.B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139468&oldid=126516 * Yayimhere * (-2)
15:25:42 <esolangs> [[S.B.M.F.B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139469&oldid=139468 * Yayimhere * (-68)
15:25:49 <esolangs> [[S.B.M.F.B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139470&oldid=139469 * Yayimhere * (-31)
15:27:11 <esolangs> [[Drunkscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139471&oldid=127182 * Yayimhere * (-1891) nonsesical
15:28:04 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139472&oldid=139465 * Yayimhere * (-18) /* esolangs */
15:29:22 <esolangs> [[NO(t) MORE(than)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139473&oldid=136020 * Yayimhere * (-91) /* examples */
15:29:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139474&oldid=139466 * MihaiEso * (+216) /* Question */ new section
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15:37:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139477&oldid=139476 * MihaiEso * (+118) /* Question */
15:39:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139478&oldid=139477 * PrySigneToFry * (+748)
15:39:45 <wWwwW> and i became tired
15:39:51 <wWwwW> but i got to do something:)
15:41:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139479&oldid=139478 * MihaiEso * (+145) /* Question */
15:43:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139480&oldid=139479 * PrySigneToFry * (+706)
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16:11:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139482&oldid=137777 * PrySigneToFry * (+771) /* Examples for BubbleLang */ new section
16:11:50 <esolangs> [[2484345508]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139483 * Tommyaweosme * (+1585) Created page with "2484345508 is an esolang that is also a rickroll. == commands == Never starts line (unless its []) gonna ever + ever gonna - gonna no +- before <>.,cst xn repeats commands n times give you up > let you down < desert you . make you cry , run around c cl
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17:33:22 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139484&oldid=139481 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-119) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/139481|139481]] by [[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|PrySigneToFry]] ([[User talk:PrySigneToFry|talk]]): It outputs "coal"; please use the talk page for questions
17:35:44 <esolangs> [[2484345508]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139485&oldid=139483 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+212) Categories
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17:42:28 <esolangs> [[FrontFlip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139486&oldid=139438 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+272) Categories
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18:02:25 <esolangs> [[13ial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139487&oldid=139392 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) Stub, categories
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20:12:38 <esolangs> [[13ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139488&oldid=139487 * Ractangle * (+123)
20:12:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[13ial]] to [[8ial]]
20:15:35 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139491&oldid=139489 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Syntax */
20:16:18 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139492&oldid=139491 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Syntax */
20:17:49 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139493&oldid=139492 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Syntax */
20:19:23 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139494&oldid=139493 * Ractangle * (+67) /* Syntax */
20:19:41 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139495&oldid=137828 * Squidmanescape * (+154) /* I Don't Know How to Implement Them */
20:20:33 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139496&oldid=139494 * Ractangle * (+37) /* Syntax */
21:08:01 <esolangs> [[Pathana]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139497 * Squidmanescape * (+1738) Created page with "Pathana is a programming language which is based on [[Malbolge]]. == Name == In the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Hinduism)#Number_and_names Manu Smriti], there are 21 levels of hell mentioned, the 17th of which is called Pathana. This name is a referen
21:10:57 <esolangs> [[8ial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139498&oldid=139496 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) Categories
21:32:49 <esolangs> [[StatiC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139499&oldid=139094 * Squidmanescape * (+31)
21:33:07 <esolangs> [[Pathana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139500&oldid=139497 * Squidmanescape * (+27)
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22:08:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zecav * New user account
22:20:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139501&oldid=139166 * Zecav * (+294) /* Introductions */
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23:42:28 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139502&oldid=139453 * PrySigneToFry * (+131)
23:48:20 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139503 * PrySigneToFry * (+957) I might I need to re-create it, but I'll not to violate the rule.
23:50:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139504&oldid=139480 * PrySigneToFry * (+733)
23:51:48 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139505&oldid=139502 * PrySigneToFry * (+80)
23:53:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139506&oldid=139482 * PrySigneToFry * (+735) /* Is this appropriate? */ new section
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00:43:10 <esolangs> [[Base2e15text]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139507 * PrySigneToFry * (+1646) Created page with "Base2e15text is designed by PSTF. == Brief introduction == It is [[Text]] but encoded by [https://hashdown.github.io/edit.html#base2e15# This tool]. The extension of Base2e15text is *.b2e15t or *.txt. == Examples == === Hello, world! === === 99 bottles o
00:45:29 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139508&oldid=139440 * PrySigneToFry * (+41)
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05:00:08 <esolangs> [[Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139509&oldid=134103 * Yayimhere * (+7) /* Computational Class */ a versio of something doesnt always have the same Comp class
05:02:06 <esolangs> [[Savage Operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139510&oldid=139447 * Yayimhere * (+16) /* Turing-completeness */
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05:27:13 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139511&oldid=133359 * Yayimhere * (-54) /* WARNING WIP: */ WIP is a template. add in next edit
05:27:40 <esolangs> [[Squick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139512&oldid=139511 * Yayimhere * (+8)
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09:00:29 <esolangs> [[User:DifferentDance8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139513 * DifferentDance8 * (+99) Created page with "Hi, I'm DifferentDance8! You may have seen me from Scratch before, but I also like making esolangs."
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09:41:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139514&oldid=139504 * PrySigneToFry * (+789)
09:45:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139515&oldid=136962 * PrySigneToFry * (+775)
09:48:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139516&oldid=139506 * PrySigneToFry * (+730) /* I'm still a little too enthusiastic...... */ new section
09:54:15 <esolangs> [[Base2e15text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139517&oldid=139507 * PrySigneToFry * (+300)
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10:17:07 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Error]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139518 * PrySigneToFry * (+1718) Created page with "When you try to execute an illegal command, [[BubbleLang]] returns an error. == SyntaxError == === Default === <pre> print("So what does "pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis" meaning?") </pre> In this case, the results we hope to get is <code>S
10:17:24 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Error]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139519&oldid=139518 * PrySigneToFry * (-14)
10:18:17 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139520&oldid=139505 * PrySigneToFry * (+21)
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11:22:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Junidev * New user account
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12:18:11 <wWwwW> i got an pretty weird idea for a esolang
12:19:02 <wWwwW> we have the section https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#A_two-command_basis_for_a_pure_concatenative_language
12:19:06 <wWwwW> it has the M command
12:19:22 <wWwwW> from some underlaod commands to something using only M and ^
12:19:38 <wWwwW> what if you could modify it
12:19:50 <wWwwW> but still run the translated commands
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12:36:20 <wWwwW> without changing the translations
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14:07:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139521&oldid=139514 * PrySigneToFry * (+712)
14:10:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139522&oldid=139516 * PrySigneToFry * (+83)
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14:38:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139523&oldid=139399 * PrySigneToFry * (+701) /* Would you like to contribute to BubbleLang? */ new section
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16:20:40 <esolangs> [[Danicb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139524&oldid=124853 * Squidmanescape * (+4)
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16:49:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139525&oldid=139522 * Ais523 * (-111)
16:49:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 2 revisions on page [[User talk:Ais523]]: content hidden
16:51:35 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139526&oldid=139520 * Ais523 * (-20) /* Example */ move the links to further examples into a sentence of their own they don't need separate sections.
16:55:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139527&oldid=139515 * Ais523 * (+610) /* About the wrong name of category */ category redirects don't work, but there are some things you could do instead
17:01:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139528&oldid=139525 * Ais523 * (+150) /* Is this appropriate? */ looks OK now
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19:40:16 <esolangs> [[Binary lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139529&oldid=139509 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Computational Class */ Grammar
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20:02:26 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139530&oldid=139386 * Ractangle * (+104) /* 4ME */
20:12:04 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139531&oldid=139495 * Squidmanescape * (+61)
20:44:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139532&oldid=120975 * Corbin * (+659) /* Merely an encoding */ new section
21:06:48 <esolangs> [[Pathana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139533&oldid=139500 * Squidmanescape * (+2789)
21:09:34 <esolangs> [[Pathana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139534&oldid=139533 * Squidmanescape * (+368) /* Basic Code */
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21:39:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139535&oldid=136316 * Aadenboy * (+507) /* Fix the name */
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23:24:29 <esolangs> [[*&&^Jj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139536&oldid=134051 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+638) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the *&&^Jj programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag.
23:37:44 <esolangs> [[*&&^Jj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139537&oldid=139536 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+299) Introduced an examples section whose twissel of incipial members enumerates a repeating cat program and a truth-machine.
23:39:08 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139538&oldid=138854 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+6) Supplemented a treble of << instructions for the H example program in order to generate the majuscular letter H in lieu of the original N.
23:41:16 <esolangs> [[*&&^Jj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139539&oldid=139537 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-1) Rectified an orthographic mistake.
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00:01:03 <esolangs> [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139540&oldid=134188 * Corbin * (+296) Stub an infobox, flesh out the introduction, and give corresponding references.
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00:18:39 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139541&oldid=139425 * Rosenthal * (+265) /* Header comment */ Generalize section to comment loops and rephrase
01:35:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139542&oldid=139528 * PrySigneToFry * (+677)
01:37:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139543&oldid=139527 * PrySigneToFry * (+617) /* About the wrong name of category */
01:38:48 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139544&oldid=139526 * PrySigneToFry * (+24)
01:40:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gd auto level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139545&oldid=139343 * PrySigneToFry * (+0) Some command is mistake
01:44:57 <esolangs> [[De Bruijn indexing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139546 * Corbin * (+2427) This seemed like something that could be factored out of multiple pages.
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01:46:36 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Error]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139547&oldid=139519 * PrySigneToFry * (+592)
01:47:35 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139548&oldid=139503 * PrySigneToFry * (+62)
01:48:53 <esolangs> [[FUCK YOU VIBEZONDISCORD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139549 * Tommyaweosme * (+946) Created page with "FUCK YOU VIBEZONDISCORD is an esolang made by [[user:tommyaweosme]] == commands == just got banned on pixilart - increment command pointer the fun from my birthday a week ago has faded.... - decrement command pointer why is life still worth it? -
01:51:37 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139550&oldid=138494 * Tommyaweosme * (+198)
01:56:09 <esolangs> [[De Bruijn indexing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139551&oldid=139546 * Corbin * (+135) Switching to 1-indexing. All examples on the wiki appear 1-indexed, so let's fit in.
02:00:13 <esolangs> [[Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139552&oldid=139529 * Corbin * (-2090) Move intro on De Bruijn indices to [[De Bruijn indexing]] and bluelink there.
02:06:38 <esolangs> [[Universal Lambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139553&oldid=94098 * Corbin * (-60) Bluelink BLC and De Bruijn indices.
02:07:34 <esolangs> [[Bruijndejx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139554&oldid=24907 * Corbin * (-23) Bluelink De Bruijn indices.
02:12:37 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139555&oldid=94683 * Corbin * (-212) Bluelink De Bruijn indices. Also clean up a bit of punctuation and remove stray WP links.
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04:47:03 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/tommyaweosme english]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139556&oldid=131090 * PrySigneToFry * (+72)
04:55:23 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139557 * PrySigneToFry * (+971) Created page with "Let's be crazier with [[Translated ORK/None1 again3]]! 1. PrOgRaM <pre> No, I am not. No, I am not. No, I am not. The record of a great historian, Don't use an external lock. Leaves hidden about vegetables and fruits. Attacks can be treated as o
04:56:01 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139558&oldid=138467 * PrySigneToFry * (+51)
05:05:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gift]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139559 * PrySigneToFry * (+168) /* Test code */ new section
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06:03:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139560&oldid=138124 * Rosenthal * (-16) /* Truth-machine (kinda) */ Reword comments for clarity and not use non-comment chars
06:12:46 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139561&oldid=139560 * Rosenthal * (+0) /* Cell Size */ Move output out of comment
06:40:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139562&oldid=139561 * Rosenthal * (-94) Update http:// links
06:40:40 <esolangs> [[Translated HZFunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139563 * PrySigneToFry * (+2165) Created page with "Translated HZFunge is designed by PSTF. 1. Take the Sieve of Erathosenes program: <pre> ..."
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06:56:04 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139564&oldid=139562 * Rosenthal * (+0) /* Cell Size */ Make header case consistent with the others
07:05:27 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139565&oldid=139508 * PrySigneToFry * (+112) /* Horribly translated variants */
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07:24:13 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139566&oldid=139565 * MihaiEso * (+1) /* Horribly translated variants */
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09:03:14 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139567&oldid=139530 * Ractangle * (-2) /* 8ial */
09:04:59 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139568&oldid=139498 * Ractangle * (+38) /* Syntax */
09:18:43 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139569&oldid=139568 * Ractangle * (+78) /* Syntax */
09:20:33 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139570&oldid=139569 * Ractangle * (+56) /* Syntax */
09:22:26 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139571&oldid=139570 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Truth-machine */
09:25:48 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139572&oldid=139571 * Ractangle * (+54) /* Truth-machine */
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09:26:56 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139573&oldid=139410 * Ractangle * (+78) /* 8xn */
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09:53:04 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139574&oldid=136703 * Ractangle * (+23)
10:45:41 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139575 * PrySigneToFry * (+1758) Created page with " is designed by PSTF. == Command Table == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Table |- ! CMD !! Meaning |- | || Increases the accumulator |- | || Decreases the accumulator |- | || Squares the accumulator |- | || Output the value of accumulator as integer |} == Examples
10:46:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139576&oldid=139417 * PrySigneToFry * (+13)
10:47:24 <esolangs> [[2 Bits and Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139577&oldid=129110 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Interpreters */
10:48:10 <esolangs> [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139578&oldid=129304 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
10:48:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139579&oldid=139129 * None1 * (+326) /* Translate it even scarier if thouyou want. */
10:48:52 <esolangs> [[2 Bits, 256 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139580&oldid=108703 * Ractangle * (+23)
10:51:54 <esolangs> [[3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139581&oldid=131201 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
10:54:41 <esolangs> [[420]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139582&oldid=132821 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Hello, world! */
10:55:37 <esolangs> [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139583&oldid=91791 * Ractangle * (+13)
10:56:44 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Error]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139584&oldid=139547 * None1 * (+13) /* CalculationError */ arcsin only defined between -1 and 1
10:59:28 <esolangs> [[A language so useless it only has one command]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139585&oldid=130849 * Ractangle * (+23) /* The command */
11:24:03 <esolangs> [[^]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139586&oldid=127629 * None1 * (+86) /* Uncomputability proof */
11:26:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139587&oldid=139523 * None1 * (+301) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */
11:27:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139588&oldid=138819 * Unname4798 * (+345)
11:30:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139589&oldid=139587 * None1 * (+118) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */
11:31:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139590&oldid=139589 * None1 * (-1) /* I'm glad about you're "revived" in the Esolang Wiki. */
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11:46:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139591&oldid=139559 * None1 * (+302)
11:47:54 <esolangs> [[AAEEEEEEEEEI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139592&oldid=82900 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Usage */
11:52:56 <esolangs> [[FUCK YOU VIBEZONDISCORD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139593&oldid=139549 * None1 * (+80)
11:53:42 <esolangs> [[Analog Synth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139594&oldid=59866 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Possible improvements */
11:55:23 <esolangs> [[Anarchysm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139595&oldid=103449 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Implementation */
11:56:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139596&oldid=139542 * None1 * (+435) /* Please check my Turing completeness proof for 2KWLang */ new section
12:02:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139597&oldid=139596 * None1 * (+10) /* Please check my Turing completeness proof for 2KWLang */
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12:11:57 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139598&oldid=138967 * None1 * (+105) /* /// */ new 2kwlang quine
12:41:57 <esolangs> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139599&oldid=120113 * Ractangle * (+23) /* In other languages */
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12:44:29 <esolangs> [[Assemblei]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139600&oldid=72986 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Programs */
12:45:18 <esolangs> [[Auld Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139601&oldid=68758 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
12:46:22 <esolangs> [[AWO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139602&oldid=53900 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Text output */
12:50:10 <esolangs> [[Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139603&oldid=57896 * Ractangle * (+23)
12:53:25 <esolangs> [[Base2e15text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139604&oldid=139517 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Categories */
12:54:50 <esolangs> [[Base64 Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139605&oldid=131214 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Development environments */
12:56:23 <esolangs> [[Baselang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139606&oldid=121110 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Commands */
12:58:23 <esolangs> [[Self]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139607&oldid=125130 * Yourusername * (+54)
12:59:11 <esolangs> [[Beecode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139608&oldid=69110 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Name Origins */
12:59:15 <esolangs> [[Self 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139609 * Yourusername * (+108) Created page with "Self 2 is a programming language where if you type two "Self"s, it prints two "Self"s == Quine == Self Self"
13:01:53 <esolangs> [[Self 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139610&oldid=139609 * Yourusername * (+265)
13:07:04 <esolangs> [[Self but with loops]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139611 * Yourusername * (+491) Created page with "self has loops now == commands == self now prints the thing before it and itself, Ex: haha self would print haha self loop loops the code behind it the number after it, Ex: haha self loop 5 would print haha self haha self haha self haha self haha self
13:25:02 <esolangs> [[Worder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139612 * Yourusername * (+458) Created page with "a language that uses your text input to generate code == Example+output == hello hi cat program what greet>noun greet = ? noun = ? Output will use neural network stuff to find greetings and nouns Ex: greet = [hello, hi] Ex: noun = [cat, program] Ex: other = [
13:29:18 <esolangs> [[This]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139613&oldid=97022 * Yourusername * (+30)
13:29:59 <esolangs> [[This]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139614&oldid=139613 * Yourusername * (+0)
13:31:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AinoFin * New user account
13:46:16 <esolangs> [[Laughing my off]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139615 * None1 * (+1040) Created page with "'''Laughing my off''' (The unprintable character between the two spaces is '''ASS''' ('''A'''CTIVATE '''S'''YMMETRIC '''S'''WAPPING), U+206B), a.k.a '''Laughing my ASS off''', a.k.a '''lmao''', is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is like [[turning tarpi
13:47:31 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139616&oldid=139566 * None1 * (+87) /* General languages */
13:48:08 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139617&oldid=138574 * None1 * (+87) /* My Esolangs */
13:49:01 <esolangs> [[Lmao]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139618 * None1 * (+33) Redirected page to [[Laughing my off]]
13:49:21 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139619&oldid=139617 * None1 * (+0) typo
13:49:55 <wWwwW> what do you think?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bring_to_another
13:50:17 <int-e> . o O ( Another one? )
13:51:08 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139620&oldid=139616 * None1 * (+0) /* General languages */
13:51:37 <esolangs> [[Laughing my ASS off]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139621 * None1 * (+33) Redirected page to [[Laughing my off]]
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13:51:57 <esolangs> [[Laughing my ass off]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139622 * None1 * (+33) Redirected page to [[Laughing my off]]
13:52:38 <int-e> It's a thought bubble :-P
13:52:53 <wWwwW> ??im so confused??
13:53:17 <int-e> Well, you asked for thoughts.
13:53:54 <esolangs> [[Laughing my off]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139623&oldid=139615 * None1 * (+93) /* XKCD Random Number */
13:56:48 <esolangs> [[Laughing my off]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139624&oldid=139623 * None1 * (+17)
13:56:59 <esolangs> [[Laughing my off]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139625&oldid=139624 * None1 * (-1) /* Translator to Deadfish in Python= */
14:07:50 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139626&oldid=139544 * PrySigneToFry * (+113)
14:15:55 <esolangs> [[Laughing my off]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139627&oldid=139625 * None1 * (+0) /* Commands */
14:17:11 <esolangs> [[Turning tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139628&oldid=138906 * None1 * (+50) /* See also */
14:18:26 <wWwwW> hey can i do some stuff
14:18:38 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#A_two-command_basis_for_a_pure_concatenative_language
14:20:24 <wWwwW> how would you do ()?
14:22:33 <int-e> it goes back to the earlier reduced Underload with :()^
14:22:51 <wWwwW> but where is the () in it
14:22:53 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139629 * PrySigneToFry * (+1383) Created page with "'''' is designed by PSTF. == Syntax == There are Th True En..."
14:24:14 <int-e> You get () in pairs from `a`.
14:24:48 <int-e> So you can construct any program that has :, ^, and balanced parentheses as a string. And you can execute that using ^
14:24:49 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139630&oldid=139598 * PrySigneToFry * (+73)
14:25:09 <wWwwW> sorry if im being stupid but im so confused rn
14:25:11 <int-e> That's why (:) and (^) are on that list but not :.
14:25:56 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139631&oldid=139620 * PrySigneToFry * (+34)
14:29:17 <int-e> Hmm... actually, how do you get ()... you'd need an empty string for that.
14:30:05 <wWwwW> what if the stack just had that on the top?
14:32:02 <int-e> I suppose you could modify M to have an additional () case.
14:33:03 <int-e> Or maybe there's a reason why () isn't needed but the preceding section uses () quite a bit.
14:58:47 <int-e> It's probably fine though... (~~) can be used instead of () for the most part; the only caveat is that we need to add two dummy elements to the stack at the start.
15:02:53 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139632&oldid=122705 * Int-e * (+262) /* A two-command basis for a pure concatenative language */ close a gap
15:05:48 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139633&oldid=139632 * Int-e * (+14) /* A two-command basis for a pure concatenative language */ but now we need ~
15:28:44 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139634&oldid=139629 * Unname4798 * (-773) remove zalgo text
15:30:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139635&oldid=139501 * AinoFin * (+137)
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17:12:37 <b_jonas> Digitalmars's D and golang are compiled languages that both have key-value mappings as built-in types.
17:14:04 <b_jonas> When I was young, my master source for phone numbers I know was my dead-tree pocket calendar. These had dedicated empty pages for phone numbers and similar useful notes, often even marked with starting letters. In English you'd call a dead-tree notebook in such a role a "telephone register".
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17:16:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Value1 * New user account
17:20:36 <b_jonas> C++ has deprecated and later removed the old "register" keyword, which used to be a storage class specifier in old C, but turns out to be no longer useful. I think at some point they considered to use it for C++ modules, but it doesn't seem like that's happening.
17:20:45 <b_jonas> fungot: draw your own conculsion
17:20:45 <fungot> b_jonas: fnord damaged by attempts to move it. ( btw i was talking about rscheme there.
17:24:48 <korvo> esolangs: With regards to lambda calculus, what is a De Bruijn index?
17:24:58 <esolangs> korvo: A De Bruijn index is a unique identifier for a variable in a lambda calculus expression. It's essentially a way to represent a variable's position within a function's arguments. Think of it like a label for each variable, allowing you to track its usage and position within a complex expression.
17:26:51 <korvo> esolangs: What's the difference between the DeBruijn programming language and De Bruijn indexing?
17:28:09 <esolangs> korvo: DeBruijn is the programming language, while De Bruijn indexing is a way to represent data in the language. DeBruijn indexing uses a system of "De Bruijn indices" to represent data. These indices are numbers from 0 to 9, and they are used to represent data in a way that is similar to how we use numbers in mathematics. DeBruijn is a functional...
17:28:09 <esolangs> programming language that uses De Bruijn indices to represent data.
17:29:22 <korvo> Not too bad. It sounds like it's using slightly older versions of pages; maybe the RAG database is a copy of the live database?
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17:30:24 <ais523> int-e: you can create, e.g., ((a)!) if you need an empty string
17:34:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139636&oldid=139635 * Value1 * (+224) :3
17:37:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139637&oldid=138356 * Value1 * (+101) ehehe
17:38:22 <tromp> i didn't know there's a DeBruijn programming language. I only know the one called bruijn ( https://bruijn.marvinborner.de/ )
17:38:55 <esolangs> [[Boyfriend.xml]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139638&oldid=93093 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Architecture */
17:40:00 <esolangs> [[Brainbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139639&oldid=30904 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
17:43:41 <b_jonas> korvo: De Bruijn index is a way to identify a variable in lambda calculus with its depth in the stack from the stack top, so the same binding will have different De Bruijn indexes in different places depending on how many lambdas deep below that you are.
17:44:05 <esolangs> [[Bubblegum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139640&oldid=139105 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Reference implementation */
17:44:58 <b_jonas> korvo: see https://esolangs.org?curid=8360 for the most well-known language that uses De Bruijn indexes to identify its variables
17:45:41 <tromp> isn't BLC a better known language?
17:49:36 <b_jonas> bacon lettude calculus? it might be.
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18:00:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139641&oldid=138970 * Ais523 * (+453) /* Comparison operators */ new section
18:19:10 <esolangs> [[User:HecknTarnation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139642&oldid=85136 * Yayimhere * (+4) link to YATDEL
18:21:23 <int-e> ais523: there's no !
18:22:38 <int-e> ais523: That particular construction targets the :^() fragment. But it uses ~ as an auxiliary operation so that's also available.
18:22:41 <korvo> b_jonas: Oh, sweet, thanks for pointing this out. I missed it last night.
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18:23:25 <korvo> tromp: Yeah, I've found like half a dozen small languages that are merely syntax over LC, including a couple that are just BLC with decoration.
18:23:28 <int-e> ( :^() is happier than :()^ )
18:25:14 <int-e> ais523: Actually I don't know what you're saying.
18:26:05 <int-e> ais523: Sorry. Okay, yes that's a program fragment that is effectively a no-op.
18:26:19 <esolangs> [[Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139643&oldid=35988 * Corbin * (-15) Bluelink De Bruijn indices.
18:27:04 <int-e> ais523: So yeah you're right, that works.
18:30:14 <int-e> ais523: Sorry. No, it doesn't work because we're building a program as a string and the only symbols we have available as strings in the M^ derivative are :()^~ ...I lost track of the goal.
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18:39:40 <b_jonas> you can just similarly make another unlambda combinator similar to M but that provides more builtins, including ordinary and parenthisized and versions of all commands, so that you can assemble any string using that combinator and application, right?
18:40:29 <int-e> Yeah you could modify M so that it produces () as an extra case
18:41:24 <int-e> b_jonas: if you look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#A_two-command_basis_for_a_pure_concatenative_language you'll see that this is the underlying idea
18:42:20 <int-e> M = (~)[any list of primitives](!...!)
18:42:46 <int-e> with just enough ! that M^ acts as !
18:42:51 <b_jonas> I don't mean () but rather make it produce each of (^), (:), (!), (~), (*), (a), (S), and then you can combine those using * and a to get any string
18:44:27 <int-e> I don't understand how that's different from what it does except that it doesn't have *all* those primitives but strives to have a minimal set of them instead.
18:45:12 <b_jonas> right, that's the difference that I mean
18:45:24 <korvo> b_jonas: Oh, by the way, if you have any ideas for [[De Bruijn indexing]], feel free to improve it. It's an infamously difficult topic and I know my wording is pretty bad.
18:45:41 <korvo> I'm here to write legally distinct public-domain text that isn't plagiarized, not to write good text.
18:45:49 <b_jonas> this way you don't have to compile to an inefficient :()^ underload program, but can compile to any normal sane underload program
18:46:08 <int-e> Adding () would give you ()a as a way to construct (()). Which is the thing that's missing compared to the :()^ fragment.
18:46:39 <b_jonas> yeah, you can add that too
18:46:44 <int-e> Yeah I don't care about efficiency.
18:50:05 <b_jonas> wait, you actually already have (^), (:), (~), (a), (*) easily constructable from the M on the wiki page, so only (!) is missing, and I think you can extract the (!!!!!!) and then construct ((~)(~)(~)(~)(~)!!!!!!) from that and that's basically a (!)
18:50:20 <b_jonas> so I think the original M is already complete except for the S builtin
18:55:03 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh. Yes, that'll work.
19:03:26 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139644&oldid=139633 * Int-e * (-48) /* A two-command basis for a pure concatenative language */ document idea by [User:b_jonas]
19:10:00 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139645&oldid=139644 * Int-e * (+149) /* A two-command basis for a pure concatenative language */ continuing idea by [User:b_jonas]
19:10:58 <int-e> fizzie: Hmm, what's the timeout for users that don't want to be remembered when logging in? I'm not sure if that's what I'm running into, but if I am, it's rather short.
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19:11:40 <b_jonas> int-e: I think that just means until your browser exits. cookies have such a flag.
19:11:52 <b_jonas> the timeout shouldn't differ.
19:11:54 <int-e> Well I lost three edits to something and had to do them over.
19:12:19 <int-e> With cookies, without javascript, and without checking the "remember me" box.
19:13:18 <int-e> Oh great another detail I lost. One more edit...
19:13:47 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139646&oldid=139645 * Int-e * (-14) /* A two-command basis for a pure concatenative language */ (~) is not used anymore
19:14:18 <int-e> b_jonas: Anyway, great idea, thanks!
19:14:53 <int-e> obvious in retrospect... but that's often how it goes.
19:24:57 <ais523> int-e: at least in Firefox, the back button will reclaim your partially written edit – are other browsers worse in that respect?
19:26:33 <ais523> int-e: did you miss that the construction can also create (a) and (*) (the same way as creating a and *, but without the ^ at the end)?
19:26:51 <ais523> so you get the :~!()a*^ fragment, which is the entire language except for I/O
19:27:18 <int-e> I didn't exactly miss that, no.
19:27:54 <ais523> I guess you could make I/O work by putting the entire ASCII table inside M, but that would be a bit inelegant (the way Underload strings can be treated as either strings or functions is already a bit inelegant, except for writing quines)
19:28:46 <int-e> it appears that ! is more valuable than a and * though.
19:30:09 <int-e> ais523: Also Firefox lost that particular edit, presumably because I wasn't considered "logged in" when I went back, so it gave me "view page" instead of "edit page".
19:30:39 <ais523> ah, that might explain it
19:56:40 <esolangs> [[CPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139647&oldid=91571 * Ractangle * (+23)
19:57:03 <esolangs> [[CRalphabet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139648&oldid=43378 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Implementation */
19:57:35 <esolangs> [[CurSorn2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139649&oldid=94814 * Ractangle * (+23)
20:00:42 <esolangs> [[COCAINE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139650&oldid=73746 * Ractangle * (+22)
20:08:25 <esolangs> [[DetailedFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139651&oldid=131467 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Interpreter */
20:09:15 <esolangs> [[Developers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139652&oldid=139232 * Ractangle * (+23) /* External resources */
20:13:59 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139653&oldid=138561 * Ractangle * (-7) /* Truth-machine */
20:17:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139654&oldid=139305 * Ractangle * (-36) /* Esolangs */
20:19:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139655&oldid=139588 * Tommyaweosme * (+308) /* What? */
20:25:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[An esolang inspired by a mobile game engine by the name of Castle]] to [[Dish]]
20:25:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:An esolang inspired by a mobile game engine by the name of Castle]] to [[Talk:Dish]]
20:27:08 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139660&oldid=139656 * Ractangle * (-1749) Replaced content with "{{Stub}} '''Dish''' (or '''D'''ead f'''ISH''') is a [[deadfish]] inspired esolang created by [[User:Ractangle]]"
20:29:03 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139661&oldid=139660 * Ractangle * (+143)
20:31:52 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139662&oldid=139661 * Ractangle * (+39) /* Syntax */
20:38:35 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139663&oldid=139662 * Ractangle * (+107) /* Syntax */
20:42:26 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139664&oldid=139663 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Syntax */
20:44:34 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139665&oldid=139664 * Ractangle * (+72) /* Syntax */
20:46:46 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139666&oldid=139665 * Ractangle * (+61) /* Syntax */
20:47:41 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139667&oldid=139666 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Syntax */
20:49:34 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139668&oldid=139667 * Ractangle * (+39) /* Syntax */
20:51:19 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139669&oldid=139668 * Ractangle * (+73) /* Syntax */
20:53:20 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139670&oldid=139669 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Syntax */
20:55:48 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139671&oldid=139670 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Examples */
21:00:08 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139672&oldid=139671 * Ractangle * (+40) /* The powers of two */
21:00:30 <fizzie> int-e: I believe there's some sort of weirdness around the state storage that I've never really figured out.
21:01:21 <fizzie> Specifically, the configuration I inherited sets $wgMainCacheType = CACHE_ACCEL, and we don't set $wgSessionCacheType. According to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgSessionCacheType "[i]f $wgMainCacheType is set to CACHE_ACCEL and this is left at its default CACHE_ANYTHING, the cache used may not meet these requirements."
21:02:36 <fizzie> So I think it's quite possible there's a certain degree of luck involved in whether you stay logged in or not, depending on the whims of the web server, PHP, and other things of that nature.
21:04:26 <fizzie> Potentially I should set $wgSessionCacheType to CACHE_DB to use the database for persistent session storage, though I don't know if that has some performance implications.
21:04:51 <fizzie> (Because I've definitely been unexpectedly logged out from the wiki as well.)
21:05:26 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139673&oldid=139672 * Ractangle * (+83) /* The powers of two */
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21:09:40 <zzo38> How to make in C, that the end of a structure must be aligned (in the definition of the structure)?
21:14:43 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139674&oldid=139673 * Ractangle * (+121) /* Syntax */
21:15:57 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139675&oldid=139674 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Syntax */
21:17:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: just the end, or both the start and end?
21:18:05 <b_jonas> normally you get both the start and end to be aligned, since that's what the C compiler directly supports, and that way the structure works aligned in an array; I don't think you can make a partial structure that has alignment but doesn't fill out whole aligned blocks
21:18:08 <zzo38> I would think that the start would already be aligned if necessary
21:18:42 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139676&oldid=139675 * Ractangle * (+117) /* Syntax */
21:19:19 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139677&oldid=139676 * Ractangle * (-61) /* Syntax */
21:19:47 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139678&oldid=139677 * Ractangle * (+14) /* Syntax */
21:20:06 <zzo38> I do not mean in an array, though; I mean that if you put something at the address of the end of the structure, that it will be aligned regardless of what you put there (e.g. using malloc and memcpy, or something else like that)
21:23:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: in any case, in modern C you `#include <stdalign.h>` then put `alignas(32)` before the first data member in the struct type definition, replace 32 with the number of bytes that you want to align to. this makes that particular member aligned to at least 32 bytes, and as a consequence it also makes the start and end of the struct aligned to 32 bytes, with extra padding in the struct if necessary
21:24:30 <b_jonas> in earlier C you can sometimes use a compiler-specific attribute that works similar to alignas, or use a union with a built-in or library type that has the necessary alignment
21:24:35 <zzo38> I want the same alignment as malloc.
21:24:59 <fizzie> There's also `alignas (max_align_t)`, which I imagine should match `malloc`.
21:26:43 <zzo38> I don't know if I have that on my computer though
21:27:54 <fizzie> References: `malloc` returns memory that is "suitably aligned so that it may be assigned to a pointer to any type of object with a fundamental alignment requirement" (C11 7.22.3p1); a /fundamental alignment requirement/ is "an alignment less than or equal to the greatest alignment supported by the implementation in all contexts, which is equal to `_Alignof (max_align_t)`" (C11 6.2.8p2).
21:28:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: for max_align_t you need to `#include <stddef.h>` and (either use `-std=c11` or some similar compiler option, or define the correct feature request macro before you include anything)
21:30:14 <b_jonas> I guess you probably just want `-std=c11` or some higher compiler option, since you want the alignas keyword too, rather than the compiler-specific stuff, unless you're editing the rare old C source that you can't easily port to be C11-compatible (eg. because it calls prototype-less functions or declares functions without return type)
21:34:55 <zzo38> I also had some ideas of a variant of C programming language. I might be able to add extra steps before and after the preprocessor, but some things I would want to not have to do separately than the parser because I might want to e.g. handle custom members in structures, and to substitute when the C preprocessor reads files as input, etc. Can this be done without rewriting the entire compiler?
21:43:23 <zzo38> (Some such features can include: scoped macros, aliased definitions, custom definitions in structures, TRON strongs, etc)
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21:45:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: on extra steps before and after the preprocessor, see https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09.html#lnrb
21:45:44 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139679&oldid=128498 * Aadenboy * (+1387) test
21:46:52 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139680&oldid=139679 * Aadenboy * (+3300) 2
21:46:56 <b_jonas> basically you can ask the compiler to do the preprocessing and the rest of the compilation separately. you should just usually make sure to pass mostly the same options to the preprocessing, compiling, and linking steps, unless you have a good reason to make the flags differ, because some options can influence all three steps, eg. define some predefined macros which can influence libraries to detect them
21:49:37 <b_jonas> in particular, both the preprocessor and compiler needs to know whether you're compiling C or C++, the language version of C or C++, the target CPU and even instruction set extensions, target operating system, whether threading is enabled, etc
21:49:54 <zzo38> I know I can do that, but some things might be difficult to implement in this way, such as to modify the included files that are read by the preprocessor
21:52:15 <zzo38> I had considered using -wrapper and -no-integrated-cpp to make all of the switches correct when wanting to add extra steps, although that only handles that part of it.
21:52:37 <b_jonas> there's at least an option to make the preprocessor show which files it's included, with full path, that can be helpful
21:54:28 <zzo38> The preprocessor will complain about unrecognized directives though, so that will need to be handled before the preprocessor reads the files, so then it might be necessary to handle #include separately
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22:52:37 <int-e> Fi-nally. I completed A Monster's Expedition (using the built-in hints for the last two snowmen)
22:54:06 <int-e> (I like those hints; they point to islands that you should focus on to make progress, which given the semi-open world nature of the game helps quite a bit.)
23:27:36 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139681&oldid=137730 * Aadenboy * (+18)
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00:13:59 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139682&oldid=138314 * BestCoder * (-1)
00:21:15 <esolangs> [[Corder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139683 * BestCoder * (+218) Created page with "[[Recorder]] but you insert stuff == Inserting == x = hi[]hello x : [] no #x is now hinohello y = inseeeeeert y : e n # y is now insnnnnnnrt == Also here is unfunctioning == return y x: flip x y flip 2 3 # 3 2"
00:21:41 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139684&oldid=139682 * BestCoder * (+16)
00:28:41 <esolangs> [[Reverser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139685 * BestCoder * (+468) Created page with "my own reversible language == commands == out: output tuo: remove this from the output inp: input pni: undetermined so noop loop N c E: loop the following E c N pool: still loop stop: stop pots: start start: start trats: stop inc: increment cni: decrement
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01:28:02 <esolangs> [[Huhgolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139686 * BestCoder * (+188) Created page with "this is actually a bunch of languages == Programs == hello world: golfprint("hello world") add two numbers: golfa=input();b=input();print(a+b) huhgolf interpreter: golfexec(input()[4:])"
01:28:30 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139687&oldid=139684 * BestCoder * (+17)
01:29:03 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139688&oldid=139687 * BestCoder * (+18)
01:33:21 <esolangs> [[Cyclic automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139689 * BestCoder * (+36) Created page with "like linear bounded but it is circle"
01:54:19 <esolangs> [[2 poets, 1 poem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139690 * Tommyaweosme * (+381) Created page with "2 poets, 1 poem is a [[poetic (family)|poetic]] [[2 bits, 1 Byte|2 bits, 1 byte]]. == commands == 1-2 letters - don 00 3 letters - act 01 4 letters - jmp 10 5 letters - end 11 6 letters - pri (print) 20 7 letters - inc (increment) 21 8 letters - dec (
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04:10:14 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139691&oldid=139541 * Rosenthal * (+15) /* Summing 1~n */ Rename variables to match article convention and test
04:31:46 <esolangs> [[Icebox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139692 * DifferentDance8 * (+3525) My first esolang!
04:32:54 <esolangs> [[Icebox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139693&oldid=139692 * DifferentDance8 * (-28) According to esolang standards, this isn't a joke language
04:35:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139694&oldid=139576 * DifferentDance8 * (+54) add IceBox
04:38:49 <ais523> <fizzie> (Because I've definitely been unexpectedly logged out from the wiki as well.) ← I have a remember-me login cookie set, and have never been unexpectedly logged out, but I often get a "We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data" message, and need to resubmit the edit
04:39:09 <ais523> my guess is that it's the same problem, but different symptoms due to the different remember me setting
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04:53:45 <esolangs> [[C-4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139695 * DifferentDance8 * (+1378) Created page with "'''C-4''' is a revolutionary programming language designed to bring self-destruction to a whole new level. Unlike traditional languages that merely execute code, C-4 goes a step further by ensuring that both itself and any program you attempt to run are promptly ann
04:54:47 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139696&oldid=139631 * DifferentDance8 * (+148)
04:57:06 <esolangs> [[User:DifferentDance8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139697&oldid=139513 * DifferentDance8 * (+108)
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05:31:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tweak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139698 * Yayimhere * (+122) Created page with "how are commands changed??? [:~~~~:]"
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06:28:51 <esolangs> [[Icebox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139699&oldid=139693 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Example Programs */
06:29:22 <esolangs> [[C-4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139700&oldid=139695 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Author's Note */
06:31:06 <esolangs> [[Category:Deadfish derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139701&oldid=116864 * Ractangle * (+22)
06:32:06 <esolangs> [[Category:Deadfish derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139702&oldid=139701 * Ractangle * (+41)
06:34:05 <esolangs> [[Category:Deadfish derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139703&oldid=139702 * Ractangle * (+85)
06:39:10 <esolangs> [[E++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139704&oldid=82115 * Ractangle * (+23)
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06:44:16 <esolangs> [[Enterprise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139705&oldid=79655 * Ractangle * (+24) /* References */
06:52:53 <esolangs> [[FIFOrth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139706&oldid=85666 * Ractangle * (+0) /* What is FIFOrth */
06:53:42 <esolangs> [[FIFTH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139707&oldid=31178 * Ractangle * (+24)
07:39:24 <esolangs> [[Ftack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139708&oldid=34507 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Computational class */
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07:47:07 <esolangs> [[Category theory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139709&oldid=104265 * Simple9371 * (+35) Generalize "sets" to "objects"
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08:08:08 <esolangs> [[Bubblegum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139710&oldid=139640 * PkmnQ * (+12)
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08:29:33 <esolangs> [[Fuck-brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139711&oldid=122183 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Python */
08:35:59 <esolangs> [[FunctionsFTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139712&oldid=114083 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Implementation */
08:47:25 <esolangs> [[@!+-()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139713&oldid=138282 * PkmnQ * (+54)
08:47:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PkmnQ * moved [[@!+-() Turing-completness Proof]] to [[@!+-() Turing-completeness Proof]]: Misspelled title
08:49:16 <esolangs> [[A programming language is a system of notation for writing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139716&oldid=131460 * PkmnQ * (+226)
08:49:28 <esolangs> [[A programming language is a system of notation for writing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139717&oldid=139716 * PkmnQ * (+4) /* See also */
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09:53:00 <esolangs> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139718&oldid=58736 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
09:56:40 <esolangs> [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139719&oldid=117844 * Ractangle * (+24) /* See Also */
09:59:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139720&oldid=139641 * None1 * (+618) /* Comparison operators */
10:00:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139721&oldid=139720 * None1 * (+138) /* Comparison operators */
10:02:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139722&oldid=139591 * None1 * (-2)
10:03:12 <esolangs> [[Hi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139723&oldid=131692 * Ractangle * (+46)
10:03:45 <esolangs> [[Hi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139724&oldid=139723 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Implementations */
10:04:27 <esolangs> [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139725&oldid=139484 * None1 * (+47) /* Examples */
10:12:30 <esolangs> [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139726&oldid=139725 * None1 * (+419) /* Examples */
10:12:47 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139727&oldid=139726 * None1 * (+1)
10:12:54 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139728&oldid=139572 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Syntax */
10:13:26 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139729&oldid=139728 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Truth-machine */
10:13:47 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139730&oldid=139573 * Ractangle * (+5) /* 8ial */
10:23:30 <esolangs> [[HQ9+2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139731&oldid=91569 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Interpreters */
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10:30:23 <esolangs> [[Huby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139732&oldid=90263 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
10:36:07 <esolangs> [[I hate your bf-derivative really I do]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139733&oldid=69678 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Hello, World! */
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10:42:46 <wib_jonas> in VBS, &HF000 is a 16-bit integer literal with negative value, so if x is a 32-bit integer then (&HF000 And x) won't just extract four bits of x, it will extract the top 20 bits, because &HF000 widens to &HFFFFF000&. I have to write (&HF000& And x) instead to extract just four bits. I knew this in theory but it's such an easy mistake to make, and
10:42:47 <wib_jonas> I wasted an hour trying to debug it yesterday, gave up, then spent an hour today to finally find the bug.
10:43:46 <wib_jonas> so just in case you want to know why in C, 0x7FFFFFFF has type int but 0x80000000 has type unsigned int, now you know, it's to avoid this exact stupid bug
10:48:30 <wib_jonas> mind you, you can still make this mistake in C: (0xF<<24 & x) is fine but (0xF<<28 & x) will extract the top 36 bits because 0xF<<28 is a signed int with negative value
10:50:56 <esolangs> [[Interdemento]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139734&oldid=59448 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Basics */
10:51:31 <esolangs> [[Interfrac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139735&oldid=96976 * Ractangle * (+23) /* See also */
10:55:21 <esolangs> [[IRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139736&oldid=106518 * Ractangle * (+24) /* See also */
10:55:53 <esolangs> [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139737&oldid=79200 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
10:57:42 <esolangs> [[Javascular]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139738&oldid=82415 * Ractangle * (+24) /* 5 is greater than 2 */
10:59:17 <esolangs> [[Keys]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139739&oldid=75849 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Implementations */
10:59:45 <esolangs> [[User:King Ethan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139740&oldid=91220 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Interpreter */
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11:38:24 <esolangs> [[Odasjoi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139741&oldid=136309 * None1 * (+3) Use IPA
11:39:53 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139742&oldid=137780 * None1 * (+2) /* Etymology */ According to the formal pronounciation, using syllables instead of IPA, the e should pronounce a long vowel /i/
11:49:50 <esolangs> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139743&oldid=59344 * Ractangle * (+22) /* External resources */
11:50:02 <esolangs> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139744&oldid=139743 * Ractangle * (+2) /* External resources */
11:51:00 <esolangs> [[LAIDBACK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139745&oldid=31180 * Ractangle * (+24)
11:53:19 <fizzie> `(0xF<<28 & x)` also triggers UBSan warning, since it's technically undefined.
11:53:21 <HackEso> (0xF<<28? No such file or directory
11:53:25 <fizzie> ("runtime error: left shift of 15 by 28 places cannot be represented in type 'int'")
11:53:33 <fizzie> I forgot about ` being a prefix. :/
11:55:13 <fizzie> Here's a funny semi-obscure C89-to-C99 difference:
11:55:17 <fizzie> 22:00 <fizzie> ,cc -w -m32 -std=c89 printf("%d", 2147483648 > -1 ? 1 : 1000000);
11:55:19 <fizzie> 22:00 <candide> fizzie: 1000000
11:55:21 <fizzie> 22:00 <fizzie> ,cc -w -m32 -std=c99 printf("%d", 2147483648 > -1 ? 1 : 1000000);
11:55:23 <fizzie> 22:00 <candide> fizzie: 1
11:56:55 <fizzie> In C89, an unsuffixed decimal constant had the first type that can represent the value out of `int`, `long`, `unsigned long`; in C99 that was changed to `int`, `long`, `long long`, dropping the unsigned option.
11:58:21 <esolangs> [[Len(language,encoding)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139746&oldid=40884 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Example Hello World program */
11:59:02 <fizzie> It's also maybe a little bit of a gotcha that changing a constant from decimal to octal/hexadecimal can change its type.
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12:08:26 <esolangs> [[Len(language,encoding)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139747&oldid=139746 * None1 * (+51) /* Example Hello World program */
12:08:44 <esolangs> [[OCPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139748&oldid=122074 * None1 * (+55) /* See also */
12:12:36 <esolangs> [[Len(language,encoding)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139749&oldid=139747 * None1 * (+288)
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12:50:49 <esolangs> [[GolfText]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139750 * None1 * (+4339) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|f=an esolang designed to output repetitive text using shorter code.}} ==Syntax== It is just [[text]], but LZMA compressed! ==Examples== ===[[99 bottles of beer]]=== <pre class="rectwrap"> FD 37 7A 58 5A 00 00 04 E6 D6 B4 46 02 00 21 01 16 00 00 00 74
12:52:46 <esolangs> [[Licorne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139751&oldid=45096 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Hello world */
12:56:36 <esolangs> [[LOLScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139752&oldid=36360 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Examples */
12:58:55 <esolangs> [[Magritte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139753&oldid=93975 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
13:05:23 <esolangs> [[Error quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139754 * None1 * (+1636) Created page with "An '''error quine''' is a type of [[quine]] where the source code is printed as an error. ==How to write an error quine== Writing an error quine is much easier than writing a quine, you follow these steps: # Smash random keys on your keyboard. # Feed the error to the
13:05:47 <esolangs> [[Quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139755&oldid=112375 * None1 * (+18) /* See also */
13:06:08 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139756&oldid=139619 * None1 * (+18) /* My Articles */
13:07:41 <esolangs> [[Error quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139757&oldid=139754 * None1 * (+172)
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13:48:56 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139758&oldid=134259 * Yayimhere * (+210)
13:58:00 <esolangs> [[GolfText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139759&oldid=139750 * None1 * (+1) /* NOP */ percent not bytes
13:59:51 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139760&oldid=139696 * None1 * (+60) /* General languages */
14:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139761&oldid=139756 * None1 * (+67) /* My Esolangs */
14:02:24 <esolangs> [[Never Gonna Give You Up]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139762&oldid=138113 * None1 * (+50)
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14:10:54 <esolangs> [[Titanium]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139763 * Alx * (+22174) Created page with "<h1>Instruction Set Architecture</h1> This page is unfinished!!! W32 Titanium (formerly serialized as <code>ua-w32-titanium#nf</code>) is a 32-bit architecture written by [[User:Alx]] with native support for data width up to 128 bits, initially written as an extension to
14:10:57 <esolangs> [[GolfText]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139764&oldid=139759 * None1 * (+1531)
14:11:30 <esolangs> [[Titanium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139765&oldid=139763 * Alx * (+37502)
14:11:52 <esolangs> [[Never gonna give you up]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139766 * None1 * (+37) Redirected page to [[Never Gonna Give You Up]]
14:12:02 <esolangs> [[Titanium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139767&oldid=139765 * Alx * (+27566)
14:12:34 <esolangs> [[Titanium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139768&oldid=139767 * Alx * (+37279)
14:12:56 <esolangs> [[Titanium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139769&oldid=139768 * Alx * (+41628)
14:16:25 <esolangs> [[Blues++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139770&oldid=138521 * Faustify * (+481) Added system calls
14:33:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Chruffins * New user account
14:35:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139771&oldid=139636 * Chruffins * (+105) introducing chruffins
14:36:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139772&oldid=139771 * Chruffins * (+69)
14:38:27 <esolangs> [[9 bytes :I]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139773&oldid=127747 * Chruffins * (+71)
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14:41:57 <esolangs> [[None]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139774&oldid=119344 * Ractangle * (+6)
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14:47:49 <esolangs> [[NullScript 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139775&oldid=99089 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Interpreter */
14:48:20 <esolangs> [[NullScript 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139776&oldid=99087 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Interpreter */
14:49:19 <esolangs> [[Obj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139777&oldid=91643 * Ractangle * (+24)
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15:32:39 <wWwwW> i made dis:https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turtle_just_want_to_dig
15:32:49 <wWwwW> what is a possible computation class
15:34:29 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139778&oldid=139472 * Yayimhere * (+30) /* esolangs */
15:36:55 <int-e> . o O ( "if the below space is a space" )
15:37:09 <int-e> this doesn't seem to compute anything
15:37:18 <esolangs> [[OOo CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139779&oldid=114802 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
15:37:46 <esolangs> [[Or++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139780&oldid=134926 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Implementations */
15:38:11 <wWwwW> why should it do computation?
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15:42:16 <esolangs> [[Pikalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139781&oldid=44016 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
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15:43:48 <esolangs> [[POGAACK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139782&oldid=63952 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Implementation */
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17:46:13 <esolangs> [[QIRAML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139783&oldid=69366 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External links */
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17:47:21 <esolangs> [[Quiler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139784&oldid=35434 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Example */
17:50:54 <esolangs> [[Recursive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139785&oldid=136558 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Crash the interpreter (for some interpreters) */
17:51:46 <esolangs> [[RENE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139786&oldid=73747 * Ractangle * (+22)
17:58:11 <esolangs> [[SARTRE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139787&oldid=58684 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
18:00:05 <JAA> How would you, say, add 1 and 2 in that language?
18:00:32 <wWwwW> idk. but i could ask the same thing about idk conways game of life
18:00:40 <esolangs> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139788&oldid=116500 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Python */
18:02:41 <wWwwW> even a infinite loop is computation
18:02:50 <wWwwW> but how much computation can it do?
18:04:12 <esolangs> [[SIMPLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139789&oldid=83853 * Ractangle * (+24) /* References */
18:04:27 <JAA> People much more clever than me have figured out how to do addition and various other fun stuff in Game of Life.
18:04:45 <wWwwW> what im trying to say is
18:05:08 <wWwwW> but also nobody can say: "oh yea how could THIS do computation????"
18:05:31 <esolangs> [[SLOBOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139790&oldid=63941 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Languages inspired by this description */
18:06:11 <JAA> Maybe it's possible, yeah. That's why I'm asking. :-)
18:06:40 <wWwwW> a person i asked said it prop was
18:06:46 <JAA> Seems to me that you'd need to figure out how to compute things in it before being able to say anything about the computational class.
18:07:20 <wWwwW> i have made a looping counter already
18:07:56 <esolangs> [[Stoplight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139791&oldid=83917 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Interpreter */
18:08:34 <wWwwW> coutning number of spaces
18:08:40 <wWwwW> this is the counter value
18:09:23 <wWwwW> and increments every iteration
18:09:27 <esolangs> [[Tautology]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139792&oldid=35549 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Implementation */
18:09:56 <esolangs> [[Tech Support Scam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139793&oldid=105901 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Truth machine */
18:10:43 <JAA> Trying to understand the rules. So the turtle moves to the right. Then there's a bug under it, and it has spaces on both sides. So shouldn't the turtle eat the bug and the program terminate?
18:10:56 <JAA> > if there are space to the both left and right AND the below space is a space it will move down into it
18:10:57 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
18:11:22 <wWwwW> the way the bug moves
18:11:48 <wWwwW> the bug is defenitly needed
18:11:55 <JAA> So what does the situation look like after one move?
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18:14:27 <esolangs> [[The Language That Explodes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139794&oldid=87344 * Ractangle * (+24)
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18:16:37 <esolangs> [[Trans-dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139795&oldid=108654 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Interpreter */
18:17:20 <esolangs> [[TrumpScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139796&oldid=102553 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
18:20:03 <esolangs> [[Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139797&oldid=76710 * Ractangle * (+24) /* See Also */
18:21:44 <esolangs> [[Undefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139798&oldid=46607 * Ractangle * (+23)
18:22:05 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139799&oldid=83594 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Implementations */
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18:24:20 <esolangs> [[UnreadabIe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139800&oldid=62125 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Commands */
18:24:59 <esolangs> [[Unusable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139801&oldid=30748 * Ractangle * (+23)
18:27:49 <esolangs> [[VerboseFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139802&oldid=94831 * Ractangle * (+24) /* External resources */
18:28:42 <esolangs> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139803&oldid=58340 * Ractangle * (+23) /* WHYJIT */
18:32:43 <esolangs> [[Deadfish~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139804&oldid=122294 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Sample Program */
18:34:01 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139805&oldid=139678 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Syntax */
18:37:09 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139806&oldid=139805 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Syntax */
18:52:06 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139807&oldid=139806 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
18:53:18 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139808&oldid=139807 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Syntax */
18:54:27 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139809&oldid=139808 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Syntax */
18:54:40 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139810&oldid=139809 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Syntax */
18:55:40 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139811&oldid=139810 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Examples */
18:56:51 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139812&oldid=139383 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Commands */
18:57:05 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139813&oldid=139812 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Commands */
19:00:14 <esolangs> [[U (PrySigneToFry)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139814&oldid=139084 * Ractangle * (-230) You already said that at the beginning
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19:14:21 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139815 * Ractangle * (+447) Created page with "'''Y/Y''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] (possibly) the only thing is known about this esolang is that it has an interpreter generated by AI. ==Syntax== :''The information is not fully done yet. You can contribute on adding more syntax info here'' {{cd|&}} pri
19:14:56 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139816&oldid=139815 * Ractangle * (+47)
19:16:08 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139817&oldid=139816 * Ractangle * (+76)
19:16:38 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139818&oldid=139817 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Interpreter */
19:17:05 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139819&oldid=139818 * Ractangle * (+35)
19:17:55 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139820&oldid=139819 * Ractangle * (+1)
19:21:49 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139821&oldid=139820 * Ractangle * (+83) /* Syntax */
19:23:12 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139822&oldid=139821 * Ractangle * (+49) /* Syntax */
19:23:29 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139823&oldid=139822 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Syntax */
19:25:20 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139824&oldid=139823 * Ractangle * (+41) /* Cat program */
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20:23:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139825&oldid=139721 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1103) Replies
20:26:26 <esolangs> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139826&oldid=138969 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) Operators, computational class
20:28:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Icebox]] to [[IceBox]]: Fix capitalisation
20:30:00 <esolangs> [[IceBox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139829&oldid=139827 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Distinguish confusion, add category
20:30:26 <esolangs> [[Ice box]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139830&oldid=123866 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Distinguish confusion
20:34:42 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139831&oldid=139824 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Stub, categories
20:36:25 <esolangs> [[Titanium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139832&oldid=139769 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) Categories
20:39:07 <esolangs> [[2 poets, 1 poem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139833&oldid=139690 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+183) Categories
20:39:37 <esolangs> [[Cyclic automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139834&oldid=139689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) Stub, link
20:41:14 <esolangs> [[Cyclic automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139835&oldid=139834 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) Category
20:42:47 <esolangs> [[Reverser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139836&oldid=139685 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+107) Categories
20:44:59 <esolangs> [[I hate your bf-derivative really I do]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139837&oldid=139733 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) Categories
21:02:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:Something that managed to create this language.jpg]]"
21:19:59 <esolangs> [[Geography table]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=139839 * Ractangle * (+419) Created page with "'''Geography table''' is an esolang based on this: <br>[[File:Something that managed to create this language.jpg|150px]] <br>created by [[User:Ractangle]] ==Syntax== Every program must start with a start form (or a start command). Bellow the start form, we have
21:23:09 <esolangs> [[Geography table]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139840&oldid=139839 * Ractangle * (+129) /* Syntax */
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21:38:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:GTHWP.png]]"
21:38:52 <esolangs> [[Geography table]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139842&oldid=139840 * Ractangle * (+47) /* Syntax */
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21:53:42 <zzo38> In DOS, Windows, and UNIX, a program's arguments are always a sequence of strings (C strings in the case of UNIX), and there are environment variables, etc. I had thought to make a better way that one of the forks of a program file indicates what type of initial message it expects. (At the low-level it is only a sequence of bytes and/or capabilities, but meanings are caused by higher level codes.)
21:54:46 <zzo38> The types might be: null, tagged union, structure, integer, floating point, C string, Pascal string, typed arrays, capabilities, typed capabilities. etc. (There are also further variants, e.g. signed vs unsigned integers, and different sizes of integers (including variable size).)
21:57:48 <zzo38> Do you have other comments about this, including other details about the types?
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22:31:29 <ais523> zzo38: I think taking capabilities as input is the most important part – that makes it possible for programs to state exactly what OS/privileged resources they're going to access
22:32:33 <ais523> in fact, I think that it would be correct for the shell to translate command-line arguments to capabilities using a standard convention, e.g. if you write a filename you get a capability to access that file, which is normally read-only, but using the -o option makes it write-only instead
22:32:33 <zzo38> Yes, that is one of the most important parts of my operating system design. (All programs must receive at least one capability as input otherwise it cannot do any I/O.)
22:33:12 <ais523> there needs to be some way for users to specify numerical and string options, etc., but I don't see an advantage from having the shell/OS translate them to different sorts of string or integer
22:33:22 <ais523> you can just pick a standard format and have the program translate, if it needs to
22:33:42 <ais523> maybe using just capabilities and strings is best
22:33:42 <zzo38> The use of the type of initial message should make it unnecessary to work that way; instead the command shell works much like other programming languages that have data types.
22:34:08 <ais523> you might want to look at Microsoft's PowerShell – IIRC it's a shell with typed command-line arguments (although it doesn't use capabilities)
22:35:28 <zzo38> Yes, I have seen it.
22:35:47 <ais523> a while ago I worked out a capability system in which there were four different relationships a program could have with a class of capability
22:36:37 <b_jonas> ais523: we can already pass open file descriptors to a process we exec, thus giving it the capability to read, or read and write, or append to the file. I've used that a few times, passing the number of the file descriptor in a command-line option to tell the program how to use which descriptor. Bash even has some nice syntax support for this, more of it in recent versions.
22:36:38 <ais523> a) it could grant itself the capability, even without being given the capability from outside; b) it inherited the capability from the program that ran it; c) it didn't have the capability by default, but could gain it by interacting with the user or a higher-privilege program; d) it couldn't gain the capability by any means
22:37:20 <ais523> although, some programs get confused if you call them with a set of open FDs other than exactly 0, 1, 2
22:37:44 <ais523> open FDs are an obvious way to implement capability passing, when the capabilities give access to a file or directory
22:38:46 <b_jonas> yeah, sometimes they erroneously pass them on to programs that they spawn, but this happen less if the program is explicitly designed to take descriptors this way than if you just try to pass --some-option=/dev/fd/$foo {foo}<$filename to a program that normally expects a filename
22:39:22 <ais523> and I think on Linux it would be possible to set up a syscall filter so that programs couldn't access files except by using existing FDs, and couldn't go upwards from existing directory FDs (basically you deny file-opening APIs other than openat2 and force it to use arguments that prevent going upwards)
22:40:03 <ais523> there's also the ergonomic issue of people normally writing "more filename" rather than "more < filename"
22:40:04 <zzo38> In my design, the only way for a program to receive a capability is to receive it from a message, which is either the initial message or a message received through another capability. Furthermore, capabilities are not distinguished from proxy capabilities; many features will use proxy capabilities and you can pass a different one than the one expected and the program will try to use it.
22:40:16 <ais523> and the issue of commands that take variable numbers of input files
22:40:19 <zzo38> (The low-level system knows nothing about types)
22:40:33 <ais523> I do agree that a proxy capability system is necessary
22:41:25 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can do that by file system namespaces, so that the program sees nothing mounted other than what you really want to pass. similarly you can use network namespaces so it can't access network except possibly a specific local or tunnel network that you use to communicate with it, or through sockets that you pass into it
22:41:25 <ais523> are you aware of the Linux command/syscall unshare(1)/unshare(2)?
22:41:57 <ais523> b_jonas: in effect that is setting up a container – it would work but might be overly complicated? or might not be
22:42:29 <ais523> I think, e.g., programs should be able to put up a Save As dialog box and save to any location that the user specifies, if the user has access to write there
22:43:14 <ais523> and they should get the capability to do that "from the user", implemented via a program that asks the user where to save and manufactures capabilities to write to that location
22:43:23 <ais523> (sort of like sudo on a much lower-permissioned level)
22:43:24 <b_jonas> ais523: unshare(2) yes, that's one of the underlying syscalls for setting up namespaces; no for unshare(1)
22:44:09 <ais523> it's basically just a wrapper around unshare(2) but it makes screwing around with namespaces very easy
22:44:34 <ais523> I think of it like a proxy capability system, in that it can give the program capabilities within the container that the user running it doesn't have outside the container
22:44:52 <zzo38> My design does not have directory structures and file names, so there is no such thing a a "Save As" dialog box; however, for a more usual system you can implement Save As in the way that you describe it makes sense.
22:44:52 <b_jonas> though I think it's rare, normally you want clone(2) to set up namespaces instead. I wonder if there's a higher level wrapper that's like posix_spawn but supports that and more.
22:45:35 <b_jonas> I don't even really understand why unshare(2) exists really, but there's probably some niche use for it.
22:46:10 <ais523> I think it's so that a program can sandbox itslef
22:46:15 <ais523> as opposed to sandboxing a child process
22:49:18 <zzo38> I think that would be why unshare exists, although I think that it is going to be more complicated and messy than a purely capability-based system, that does not have name spaces and the other stuff like that.
22:51:07 <b_jonas> by the way as for clone, do you found it funny how pre-pthreads linuxthreads caused Linux to obsolete the orignal exit system call with a new call group_exit which _exit now calls, because the exit syscall has to be binary compatible with programs using old linuxthreads. Like, I understand why some system calls like lstat or statfs or getdents have like four binary incompatible generations of underlying
22:51:14 <b_jonas> syscalls implementing them, but exit (literally system call 1, as old as Unix) is the last syscall to which you'd expect this would happen.
22:51:48 <zzo38> I did not know that, since I had not used pre-pthreads linuxthreads
22:53:19 <b_jonas> the only saving grace is that those old syscalls can be removed in newly created architectures whose syscall ABI is entirely incompatible with existing architectures, but that has a very long half-life for old syscalls on popular architectures
22:54:29 <zzo38> About the typed initial messaged I had mentioned above, a problem with the shell converting file names like that is that it allows inadvertently giving capabilities that are not intended. The command shell being a programming language with types, will do it better.
22:54:30 <b_jonas> also technically sometimes you can remove some old syscalls with kernel compile options, which I know because I once did that accidentally with a kernel that I compiled and it caused everything to break
22:55:32 <zzo38> In some cases it might automatically convert types, e.g. the command shell programming language (also called "Command, Automation, and Query Language") might not have C strings, so it will convert a Pascal string to a C string if that is what the program uses and will result in an error message (without executing the program) if it contains a null byte.
22:55:47 <b_jonas> and when that happens, programs usually break without a good error message
22:56:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, that already happens. bash uses strings that can contain nul bytes, but has to convert the if you use one as a command-line argument to an external program or as an environment variable
22:57:59 <b_jonas> also when using a string as a filename. and it's not just bash, this happens with some other high-level languages too. it can lead to funny security vulnerabilities if you do it wrong.
22:59:09 <zzo38> I think Lisp has a separate filename type.
23:00:32 <zzo38> However, some programming languages have other problems with using strings as filenames, depending on how they differ from the filenames of the system; there are differences between operating systems and between programming languages. For example, some might require them to be Unicode strings, and then there is difference of case-sensitivity, etc.
23:00:41 <zzo38> So, my own system will not have file names.
23:04:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139843&oldid=139825 * None1 * (+272) /* Comparison operators */
23:04:41 <b_jonas> ok, I guess unshare makes sense at least partly, since most other syscalls in unix work that way, modifying the state of the current process instead of a newly spawned one. maybe the stuff like file system namespace and network namespace should be in unshared, while clone keeps only the stuff that fork normally unshares, most importantly CLONE_VM
23:06:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, you can have a filename type, but at some point you still have to be able to convert a string to a filename
23:06:16 <zzo38> In order for emulation, network transparency, etc, also I would think that a common convention for endianness, etc will be defined for the data types in messages and files as well, so that they will be the same on alll computers. (A program may then internally convert the data to its own endianness, alignment, etc, if it wishes to perform its own computations using it (rather than merely pass it to someone else).)
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23:07:13 <b_jonas> and yes, unix uses byte strings as filenames, windows uses UCS-16 strings as filenames, unix updates file modification time at every write, windows doesn't, these are fundamental differences that we can't really fix and if you want portable programs you effectively have to support both cases explicitly.
23:10:35 <zzo38> Yes, you might sometimes need to convert a string to a file name. However, for many systems you could just accept text in files, command-line arguments, etc and just use those when you need anything beyond the program's own ASCII file names, and for the program's own ASCII file names to use a consistent case and never use file names with the other case, then it might work, but it is messy.
23:12:48 <zzo38> What my idea is to just not have file names at all. When you pass a file to a uxn program, it will be converted to a sequence of letters/numbers and then the uxn emulator will internally associate that name with that file temporarily. This also applies when a link to another file is read from a file, perhaps.
23:14:17 <zzo38> This also means that the C standard library will not have a fopen function, although fopencookie, fmemopen, etc are still available. There will be other functions to make a FILE object to access a capability that you have access to, though.
23:23:31 <zzo38> Are there data types that I had missed in the list that I had written above?
23:25:14 <zzo38> (It would still be possible to give a message that does not conform to the expected format, although you would have to use the command to deliberately send a raw message, then; normally it would use the specified formats)
23:26:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:SMATINY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139844&oldid=8447 * Tommyaweosme * (+682) /* Infinite loops */
23:26:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:SMATINY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=139845&oldid=139844 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) the missing dots...
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23:45:19 <ais523> zzo38: I think most programs don't need to know the filename of the user files they operate on – however, programs often also have data files of their own, and need some way to identify them, so it makes sense to have a filename for those
23:46:26 <ais523> when a program does need to know the name of the file it's operating on, it's normally to show it to the user (and IMO programs should have a type specifically for "text that is shown to the user" so that it can contain formatting, be translated into other languages, etc.)
23:47:11 <ais523> but, sometimes a program wants to operate on an entire directory or directory tree, and filenames are useful there too
23:47:29 <zzo38> I had thought of such things too, and have thought of some other ways of doing some of these things.
23:50:20 <zzo38> Files can contain links to other files, so a program can contain links to its data files, or a configuration file might have. For operating on many files, a sequence of links is possible, too. For "text that is shown to the user", I had considered that too, because I had considered i18n. And, the Common Data Format (used for most files and for the command shell) also allows for rich text.
23:52:08 <zzo38> I think that the existing locale handling in many systems isn't that good, e.g. that paper size doesn't belong in the locale but rather in the printer driver configuration.
23:53:47 <zzo38> Money formats belong with the data file being displayed, and not with the locale either.
23:54:48 <ais523> hmm – I think money formats are a mix of the data and the user's locale
23:54:52 <zzo38> The language will belong with the locale, and so will date/time formats, although date/time formats should not need identifiers (using identifiers only limits them), and will not necessarily be a Gregorian calendar nor 24-hours (so "space age time keeping" would also be possible)
23:55:10 <zzo38> OK, you are probably right about money formats.
23:55:27 <ais523> an amount of money that's displayed as $5.20 in the USA should be displayed as US$5.20 in Canada (where $ normally mans something different) and 5,20 USD in France
23:56:05 <ais523> or maybe 5.20 USD in Canada, too
23:56:16 <ais523> it is hard to be unambiguous, often
23:56:57 <ais523> I agree with you that locale handling typically isn't very good, though
23:57:09 <zzo38> Yes, things like that is what I thought you meant
23:57:22 <ais523> with the paper size examples, WYSIWYG editors often have trouble because the paper size where the file is edited and where the file is printed are different
23:57:46 <ais523> and users aren't typically asked to specify the paper size when creating a document, even though this is important for WYSIWYG to work
23:58:04 <ais523> (I prefer WYSIWYM editors, usually, which have enough information to adapt the document to a different paper size)
23:59:03 <zzo38> A file that is formatted for a specific paper size would store that data of course, and the user would always be able to set this if it is necessary to do in the file, regardless of the printer driver configuration. (Not all files will be formatted for specific paper sizes.)
00:00:02 <ais523> yes – what seems to happen in practice with editors like Microsoft Word is that it guesses a paper size when you create the document, then saves it in the document
00:00:09 <ais523> but this causes problems when the guess is wrong
00:01:08 <zzo38> And, about WYSIWYG, when editing rich text, a "Reveal Codes" feature like WordPerfect will be needed.
00:02:10 <zzo38> A program that requires a paper size should be allowed to be configured anyways; but the printer driver configuration can be used if a paper size is somehow required even though it has not been configured for that file nor for that program.
00:02:44 <ais523> in my case, my computer is usually not attached to a printer
00:03:20 <ais523> if I need to print something (which is very rare) I can borrow a printer, but that's typically only after I've already written the document
00:05:03 <ais523> for what it's worth, I have also had dreams of writing my own OS, but my plans involved using an existing kernel and just replacing the userland (because it would be too difficult to rewrite all the device drivers from scratch)
00:05:29 <zzo38> Yes, although I meant the printer driver configuration, which is not the same as the printer itself (although it could be automatically configured according to the printer if you have one). (You could install a null printer driver if you need to, although in the case I described it would not be necessary if you only want to configure one specific program or file. However, it would be useful if you commonly use one paper size.)
00:07:16 <zzo38> About using existing kernels, my idea is that such a thing might be possible, at least with some kernels; it might be possible to run it inside of another operating system (I think Inferno also does), although standalone implementations would also be possible. The specification is separate from the implementation, so multiple implementations are possible. (In some cases, it might help to modify the existing kernels; I don't know, thoug
00:11:20 <zzo38> Character encoding is another thing included in the locale in some systems but that also belongs with the data being displayed. In my system, this would be handled by Common Data Format; in addition to Extended TRON Code, you can also specify arbitrary 8-bit character sets.
00:12:09 <zzo38> The keyboard manager also allows selecting a 8-bit character set (this is done by the application program) in "short character mode", and then if the user has a keyboard layout installed for that character set then it can be automatically selected. (For example, this ability might be useful for APL programming, maybe)
00:19:02 <zzo38> For telephone number formats, you can use international telephone numbers for better i18n; if the country code is known to not display it in some cases if desired, that could be a display setting for locales possibly, although you might want to deliberately display it anyways. For dialing telephone numbers, that can be the telephone modem configuration perhaps, that it knows to include or exclude country codes.
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