00:00:26 <int-e> But it would make golfing https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-balanced-stacker.html harder :)
00:00:29 <b_jonas> which is why it's high, it'd be easier to priority merge two belts that carry fixed shapes
00:01:10 <b_jonas> what the heck is that contraption?
00:01:47 <int-e> a perfectly synchronized stacker from my MAM design
00:03:42 <b_jonas> give me a moment, I'm trying to trace those belts through those woven opposite tunnels still
00:05:28 <int-e> I'm sure you've seen this before, but that was 2 years ago :)
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00:07:25 <int-e> Hah, the second image isn't right. I never noticed.
00:08:14 <int-e> (The two inputs are supposed to cross over to the other side.)
00:08:28 <b_jonas> ok, I think I can kind of see how this might work
00:08:43 <b_jonas> also it's crazy and fragile if you use it that way
00:09:29 <int-e> Well, splitters are deterministic. And yes, my MAM is fragile.
00:09:51 <b_jonas> in particular, do the outputs form the eight stackers never get into each other's way such that it causes buffering at a stacker and queueing up before its inputs?
00:10:15 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tree-mam/#control "When this inevitably goes wrong while experimenting with various timings, synchronization will be compromised. In this case, it is enough to clear all belts in the MAM to return to a pristine state."
00:10:26 <b_jonas> you only have a few shapes of leeway until the output of a splitter is blocked and the careful alternation breaks
00:10:42 <int-e> there's a tiny output buffer
00:12:03 <int-e> As long as you feed the /exact/ same number of items on both sides it'll work perfectly. Unless you save and restore the game with production in progress... that'll wreak havoc on the machine.
00:12:23 <int-e> (Which is why my control area has an on/off button)
00:13:07 <b_jonas> I have an on-off button for the MAM too, but not for that reason
00:13:37 <b_jonas> I put it there mostly in case I want to edit the museum contraption without losing a freeplay shape
00:14:10 <b_jonas> and because it's easy enough to add
00:14:26 <b_jonas> it's like one button and one transistor
00:15:36 <int-e> It's actually a bit tricky for me because I have to let the previous production cycle complete before switching everything off; switching things off mid production run would destroy the balance.
00:15:43 <int-e> or synchronization
00:15:57 <b_jonas> right, because of the splitters
00:16:01 <int-e> (I forgot that that was the term I settled on when describing the MAM)
00:17:26 <b_jonas> if you want to build that kind of crazy contraption synchronized such that you count every single item, you can do it in Factorio too by the way
00:17:57 <b_jonas> it might not be the most practical thing to do, but there's a big enoguh community that does all sorts of esoteric things in Factorio
00:18:04 <int-e> that is kind of cool given that the game is so much messier.
00:18:15 <b_jonas> inclusing a whole Discord named "Technical Factorio"
00:18:35 <b_jonas> yeah, but save and load saves and loads all the state properly
00:19:11 <b_jonas> or at least more of the state than shapez.io; technically it needn't save all state of certain mods
00:19:43 <int-e> Yeah the fact that *that* doesn't work properly in shapez.io is kind of embarrassing. I've seen mention of a mod that fixes this, by somebody who works on shapez.io TAS runs, which makes a lot of sense. :)
00:20:11 <int-e> I didn't save the link.
00:21:34 <int-e> I do know what state is missing though... it's the one-item output buffer of producers, and the up-to-two (IIRC) pending "charges" of production buildings.
00:24:15 <b_jonas> Factorio is forced to handle save-loads properly because it's built to work as a multiplayer network game with the state perfectly synchronized across clients.
00:24:52 <int-e> Detecting a single belt item is tricky in shapez.io btw. The problem with the filter+storage combination is that it traps an item, and you detect an item, the previous item is released.
00:25:17 <int-e> Right, multiplayer will force you to properly serialize all relevant state.
00:26:55 <b_jonas> I find it technically pretty impressive that they have both synchronized network play and a good modding system built into the same game engine (even if mods need to support network play when they do certain things, because the game core carefully does all its computations deterministically, but mods can do things that aren't deterministic and then that breaks across network play)
00:27:16 <b_jonas> it's *much* harder than just having two games, one with synchronized network play and one with a mod system
00:28:38 <b_jonas> and it's not just a theoretical proof of concept demo of this, players are actively using multiplayer and impressive modding things and both are optimized well and give a good player experience
00:29:16 <esolangs> [[PyFuck (kuangkzh)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144716&oldid=144686 * ShirAko * (+42) changed link for hello world
00:29:29 <b_jonas> if they were less insane they'd never have added network multi-headed gameplay
00:31:45 <esolangs> [[PyFuck (kuangkzh)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144717&oldid=144716 * ShirAko * (-42) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/144716|144716]] by [[Special:Contributions/ShirAko|ShirAko]] ([[User talk:ShirAko|talk]])
00:49:25 <esolangs> [[PyFuck (shirAko)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144718&oldid=144679 * ShirAko * (+1) small correction
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04:39:48 <zzo38> Is there object identifiers for geodetic reference systems (e.g. WGS84, NAD83, etc)?
04:58:53 <esolangs> [[9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144719&oldid=144709 * Yayimhere * (+10)
06:36:22 <esolangs> [[User:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144720&oldid=144557 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+7391)
06:52:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144721&oldid=143526 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+216)
06:59:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144722&oldid=143517 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+422)
07:01:28 <esolangs> [[User:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144723&oldid=144720 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+1) /* Subleq8: My 8 bit subleq interpreter source code */
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07:47:37 <Lymia> /me is thinking idly about bfjoust interpreter optimizations
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07:47:57 <Lymia> After ais mentioned it, I think it's very practical to do. (In a language suited to slightly more advanced compiler code, anyways)
07:49:38 <Lymia> Any segment that runs entirely instructions from the following set can be a "clear loop": [ + - . {
07:50:13 <Lymia> That segment effectively has no means to exit unless: A) the timer expires, B) the current cell is set to zero.
07:50:34 <Lymia> if both bots are in such a segment, the entire resolution can be fast forwarded.
07:52:01 <Lymia> Should be able to fast forward the match by hundreds of cycles at a time in .... any practical match, tbh.
07:54:53 <Lymia> It'd be bounded by two things: The maximum length of time each "fast-forwardable segment" can execute for before it branches due to e.g. an offset clear, and the cell it's on actually reaching 0 so that while loops can be entered/exited..
07:55:11 <Lymia> Notably this works even if the two bots are on the same cell.
07:55:40 <Lymia> You can still find a movement rate for e.g. (+)*-1 fighting [+.]
07:55:43 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144724&oldid=144550 * Salpynx * (+757) FROSTWIRE-666 is growing on me. I want to extract a usable fixed point combinator from , but Python is not the best tool for it..
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08:07:16 <iddi01> !ztest beta https://www.paste.org/flat/128387
08:07:17 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
08:08:36 <iddi01> d a m n p a s t e . o r g d o n ' t w o r k
08:09:08 <Lymia> Another observation: there exists a "time before first interaciton" in every BFJoust match.
08:09:40 <Lymia> Before either bot reaches the furthest cell the other bot has reached.
08:10:28 <Lymia> You can run e.g. tape 10 up to that point, save the state, then when doing tape 10, insert a cell in between from the saved state, as the bots bascially have yet to determine the tape length. Furthermore, you can transfer the first cycles of the normal polarity to the polarity flipped on the same principle.
08:10:40 <Lymia> If you add cycle advantage as a configuration, you apply the same principle for that too.
08:11:14 <Lymia> In the extreme case, this can determine that two flag defenders will XXXXXXXX after one round.
08:12:20 <Lymia> These two techniques combined should skip a significant portion of the mid/endgame for fast-forwarding loops and a significant portion of the earlygame (when there's no pokes involved) for the time before first interaction metric.
08:13:57 <iddi01> !ztest beta https://pastebin.com/raw/4Wtf25Zz
08:13:58 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 9.74, score 31.02, rank 5/47
08:14:10 <iddi01> !zjoust beta https://pastebin.com/raw/4Wtf25Zz
08:14:10 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 9.74, score 31.02, rank 5/47
08:19:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144725&oldid=144576 * Salpynx * (+835) /* complete basis? */ links for future reference
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08:27:14 <Guest77> does anybody know why APL has all thewierd symbols?(i need tisfor an esolang)
08:28:08 <ais523> Guest77: in the early days of programming the choice of character sets wasn't really fixed, so all languages were in a way using weird symbols
08:28:37 <ais523> and APL came up with a descriptive set for its own use because, with no standard set, it might as well
08:28:50 <iddi01> !zjoust another_rush_program <just a test will restore later>
08:28:50 <zemhill> iddi01.another_rush_program: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-36)
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08:29:17 <iddi01> !zjoust beta https://pastebin.com/raw/4Wtf25Zz
08:29:17 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 11.74, score 33.84, rank 4/47 (--)
08:29:49 <ais523> Jelly's character set was chosen to be easy to type
08:30:05 <ais523> it's quite hard to come up with 256 characters that are all typeable
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08:30:32 <ais523> there are keyboard layouts which use altgr like a second shift key, to give four symbols per key
08:30:39 <iddi01> !zjoust another_rush_program (>)*8-----<<(+)*23<<(-)*33<<(+)*65>(+)*33<<(-)*44<(-)*21>>[(>)*9(>[+[+[--[-[-[(-[{(+)*26(+[{(+)*92(+.)*24(>(+)*116(+.)*24)*-1}])%25}])%23]]]]]])*25]<<(---+)*-1
08:30:39 <zemhill> iddi01.another_rush_program: points 5.12, score 25.22, rank 11/47 (+36)
08:30:49 <ais523> e.g. the a key produces a A æ Æ with no modifier, shift, altgr, and altgr-shift
08:30:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROSTWIRE-666]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144726&oldid=144725 * Salpynx * (+257) /* complete basis? */ B combinator lulz
08:31:34 <ais523> altgr-j is a prefix that produces ả,ɓ,ƈ, etc., which is why Jelly uses a lot of symbols like that
08:31:48 <Lymia> clearly if you need a quick 256 character encoding, just use kanji. It's easy to type. :^)
08:32:00 <ais523> altgr-/ is underdot, ạḅḍẹ
08:32:09 <ais523> altgr-shift-/ is overdot, ȧḃḋė
08:32:34 <ais523> Lymia: over the last couple of days I have been trying to find a kanji input method I like
08:33:47 <ais523> I have been considering creating my own, designed for trying to input ideograms that you could only see from a distance or at a small font size and can't make out all the details, and also don't know the language
08:34:54 <ais523> (also I have taken an unusual approach by attempting to learn written Chinese ideograms and written Japanese ideograms simultaneously – there is so much overlap that it makes more sense to learn the character and how it differs in the two languages, than to try to learn it separately)
08:38:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROSTWIRE-666]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144727&oldid=144726 * Salpynx * (+21) /* complete basis? */ link to specific section of that long SKI page
08:47:11 <iddi01> whoops, β ranked first in traditional scoring. did that count as topping the hill?
08:47:50 <ais523> there are different senses of topping
08:48:34 <iddi01> I mean the sense that the BF joust champions page uses
08:49:01 <ais523> it's intentionally a bit vague, and I don't think this situation's come up before
08:49:19 <ais523> or, well, back when there were two working hills you'd just submit to the hill that used the scoring you'd need
08:50:05 <ais523> I think being #1 in any major scoring system is probably good enough to add to the article, assuming that you didn't get there via excessive overfitting – it's a high bar to reach
08:51:25 <iddi01> Well, β doesn't include any special-case code at all
08:53:06 <ais523> the strategy seems innovative enough
08:53:19 <ais523> it is mildly reminiscent of growth2 but there are significant differences
08:55:52 <ais523> I think it's the sort of program for which the champions page would gain from an explanation
09:23:37 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144728&oldid=144605 * Iddi01 * (+1703) A new only-in-traditional-scoring champion
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09:43:42 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144729&oldid=144728 * Iddi01 * (+41) /* 2024 */ The wiggle for the third step is actually smaller
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10:43:47 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144730&oldid=144658 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1735) Added Stringle, Exechars and Execode
10:46:23 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck/Esointerpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144731&oldid=144465 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+34) /* See also*/ Added link to Esointerpreters page
11:42:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144732&oldid=141099 * PrySigneToFry * (+276)
11:48:59 <esolangs> [[Slink]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144733 * 3cxpy * (+2857) Create the "Slink" page
11:52:38 <esolangs> [[Slink]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144734&oldid=144733 * 3cxpy * (+50)
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12:01:26 <esolangs> [[Slink]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144735&oldid=144734 * 3cxpy * (+13)
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12:37:02 <b_jonas> “there are keyboard layouts which use altgr like a second shift key, to give four symbols per key” => the hungarian layouts on Windows use altgr (or control-alt) as a second shift key giving *three* symbols per key. for example, altgr+j gives í and altgre+i gives Í, altgr+a gives ä and iirc altgr+s gives Ä, altgr+comma gives semicolon, altgr+z gives greater-than, etc. all ascii characters are
12:37:08 <b_jonas> available on one of the three layers, and there are also some altgr combinations that give an accent that tries to modify the following letter that you type.
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12:40:27 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144736&oldid=144692 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0) /* SHITS in CDILOI */
12:40:34 <b_jonas> nope, incorrect, it's altgr+e that gives Ä
12:40:34 <wWwwW> thx for the help ais523!(yes i was guest77)
12:40:40 <esolangs> [[SHITS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144737&oldid=144654 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1) /* In CDILOI */
12:41:13 <b_jonas> there are only four lowercase-uppercase pairs directly on the altgr layer though
12:42:21 <b_jonas> just three layers would be rather silly if there had to be more
12:48:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144738&oldid=144727 * Yayimhere * (+134) /* complete basis? */
12:51:29 <b_jonas> Guest77: APL evolved from a notation that could be used to write about mathematics and not necessarily computer code. the first computer-executable versions of APL were designed to be used on a Selectric electromechanical typewriter used as serial terminal, very popular in America at the time. the Selectrics use a replacable ball-shaped type with 88 or 96 glyphs per ball, so APL on it used a custom ball
12:51:35 <b_jonas> that has a custom set of symbols, and a lot of extra symbols were made from combining two symbols backspacing, which is why there are combinations. then some later APLs kept those same symbols even in such contexts where such backspacing to combine two symbols wasn't available anymore, as in video terminals.
12:51:50 <wWwwW> you can ping me for Guest77 k
12:52:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144739&oldid=144738 * Yayimhere * (+57) /* complete basis? */
12:54:02 <b_jonas> and I don't think even all 88 glyphs were used, I think maybe only 80-something were available if they used a 5-bit serial tty rather than 7-bit or 8-bit, which is why there were so many overstruck characters
12:54:14 <b_jonas> but maybe the did use a 7-bit or 8-bit tty, I don't know
12:54:40 <wWwwW> UIUA and all those APL likes
12:54:44 <wWwwW> why did they adopt it
12:56:06 <wWwwW> that stack based lang
12:56:43 <wWwwW> tis ting: https://www.uiua.org/
13:00:14 <b_jonas> incidentally the IBM Selectric series is such an advanced machine for its time that it's quite amazing how they could mass-produce it and adopt it in many places. it's almost non-existent here in Europe, I've never seen one in person (except for one Selectric behind glass in a museum cabinet that was exhibited in a way that all you could see is a fancy plastic chasis and a keyboard), so I was wondering
13:00:21 <b_jonas> for a while if it's a machine that was just an american hoax (and possibly expensive prototype machine) propagated to convince the SU of the west's technological superiority, but then later a service manual and some disassembly videos turned up on the internet, so now I'm pretty sure at least two of the three generations did actually exist
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13:04:30 <b_jonas> that said, almost none of the APL symbols are actually weird, all of them are clearly either symbols used before APL, or simple geometric shapes (small center circle, large circle, bottom _|_, top ~|~, delta, nabla, large rectangle, multiplication sign ×, six-pointed star) or overstruck combinations of them (bottom+small circle, top+small circle, vertical bar+nabla => pine, rectangle+comma => system,
13:04:36 <b_jonas> minus+colon => division, large circle+six-pointed star => log)
13:05:30 <b_jonas> then some of the later invented symbols use a diaresis/umlaut combined with symbols
13:06:39 <b_jonas> many of the symbols are *unique*, first used for APL, but none of them really are weird other than maybe the rectangle+comma
13:08:10 <b_jonas> maybe the division sign ÷ isn't actually composed because there's also a domino symbol which is division+large rectangle
13:10:18 <b_jonas> I have no idea which symbols are old and which ones were added later though
13:11:11 <b_jonas> the variant that I'm most familiar with is semi-old versions of J, which is an APL that uses ascii symbols only and was designed by the late Ken Iverson himself together with Roger Hui
13:11:40 <b_jonas> we had a bunch of IRC bots evaluating it for a while but none of them are alive anymore and it isn't likely that there'll be any more
13:11:55 <b_jonas> one of the main drawbacks why I don't like J though is the large number of incompatible changes between versions
13:12:18 <b_jonas> ah right, there's no large rectangle+comma, there's only a large rectangle+apostrophe
13:13:42 <b_jonas> ok fair, there's one really weird symbol, the lightbulb to mark comments, and I don't think that one was composed
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13:24:06 <esolangs> [[InPro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144740 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+725) Created page with "'''InPro''' ('''In'''finite '''Pro'''gram) is a [[brainfuck]] derivative by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] ==Description== The programs in the language are infinite, and thus it it needs to be run using a REPL. In this version while loop <code>[...]</code> is instead an
13:24:42 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144741&oldid=144578 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+11) /* 2024 */ added InPro
13:25:21 <esolangs> [[Inpro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144742 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+19) Redirected page to [[InPro]]
13:27:03 <esolangs> [[Conditional Bee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144743&oldid=94263 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-4)
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14:15:15 <esolangs> [[CDILOI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144744&oldid=141001 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+12) /* Computational class */
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14:37:50 <esolangs> [[TACC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144745&oldid=120863 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+722) /* Examples */
14:44:26 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144746&oldid=144730 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+515) /* Main table */ Added brainfuck in Textile
14:47:00 <esolangs> [[DOG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144747&oldid=96958 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) /* External resources */
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15:25:39 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144748&oldid=143929 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Conjectures */
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15:29:55 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144749&oldid=144724 * Yayimhere * (+54) /* Computational class */
15:30:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144750&oldid=144739 * Yayimhere * (+59) /* complete basis? */
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17:09:32 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Conjectures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144751&oldid=90585 * Hakerh400 * (+2268) Add a new conjecture.
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18:20:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:HakerScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144752 * Baldibacak * (+290) Created page with "hello i am new here but i have an suggestion for brutforce it pauses program for 1-5 sec but instead what if we iterate that many times for example brutforce 127.0.0.1 100000 which gonna run a loop that increments variable until variable = 100000 which is ac
18:20:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144753&oldid=144752 * Baldibacak * (+12) added pre tag for newlines
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20:05:41 <esolangs> [[10 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144754&oldid=144688 * Baldibacak * (+40)
20:05:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jumpy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144755 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+387) Created page with "Wouldn't Jumpy be a [[linear bounded automaton]], since it can only access finitely many cells on the Game of Life board. :--~~~~"
20:06:04 <esolangs> [[10 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144756&oldid=144754 * Baldibacak * (-1) f
20:16:23 <esolangs> [[Eafh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144757&oldid=138460 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+41) /* Interpreter */
20:21:48 <esolangs> [[Preserve Line Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144758&oldid=114784 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+85) /* Example Programs */
20:22:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:B2C]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144759 * Baldibacak * (+139) Created page with "i dont think this esolang is turing complate since there is only 2 cells unless they are infinite bits in size they cant be turing complate"
20:24:53 <esolangs> [[Multiply]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144760&oldid=101871 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+90) /* Examples */
20:35:49 <esolangs> [[Eafh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144761&oldid=144757 * Baldibacak * (+52) written an ecliptica interpreter
20:37:06 <esolangs> [[JAGL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144762&oldid=144456 * Ractangle * (-7) Interpreter moved
20:37:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144763&oldid=135411 * Baldibacak * (-1213) removed bullshit and fixed categoryies
20:38:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144764&oldid=144763 * Baldibacak * (+1213) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/144763|144763]] by [[Special:Contributions/Baldibacak|Baldibacak]] ([[User talk:Baldibacak|talk]])
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22:01:10 <esolangs> [[Preserve Line Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144765&oldid=144758 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+142) /* Example Programs */
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22:12:07 <esolangs> [[=/=]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144766 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+26) Redirected page to [[Unassignable]]
22:19:07 <esolangs> [[OOo CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144767&oldid=139779 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+76) /* Examples */
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22:51:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144768&oldid=144436 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-71)
22:57:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:B2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144769&oldid=144759 * None1 * (+263) It's an FSA
23:03:53 <esolangs> [[Preserve Line Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144770&oldid=144765 * None1 * (-208) These examples don't work as it can only print consecutive numbers starting with 1
23:51:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jumpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144771&oldid=144755 * Corbin * (+574) Demonstrate how to decide Jumpy in linear time.
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00:52:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jumpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144772&oldid=144771 * Ais523 * (+476) programs are infinitely long
01:39:05 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Conjectures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144773&oldid=144751 * Hakerh400 * (-2) /* Conjecture 4 */
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02:30:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arsonist * New user account
02:42:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144774&oldid=144591 * Arsonist * (+431) /* Introductions */
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05:25:49 <Guest60> how to kindoff integrate monads(programming monads) into LC
05:32:53 <esolangs> [[Black Pentagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144775&oldid=126176 * Gggfr * (-1) /* Introduction */ changed to right word
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10:16:07 <esolangs> [[PyFuck (kuangkzh)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144776&oldid=144717 * None1 * (+16) Real name from his github page
10:21:36 <esolangs> [[B2C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144777&oldid=120138 * None1 * (+2) /* External resources */ change to GitHub Pages site
10:24:41 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144778&oldid=144736 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+430) Added CT in CDILOI
10:25:46 <esolangs> [[Remove Line Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144779&oldid=134363 * None1 * (-99) Remove down replit link
10:26:49 <esolangs> [[Preserve Line Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144780&oldid=144770 * None1 * (-99) /* C++ as Windows executable (64bit) (faster link) */ remove down replit link
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10:31:51 <esolangs> [[OOo CODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144781&oldid=144767 * None1 * (+1) /* External resources */
10:38:11 <esolangs> [[OOo CODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144782&oldid=144781 * None1 * (-23) /* External resources */ probably dead
10:40:23 <esolangs> [[ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144783 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+47) Redirected page to [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]]
10:44:55 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144784&oldid=144746 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+61) Added CT in CDILOI
10:49:39 <esolangs> [[CDILOI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144785&oldid=144744 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-6) /* Computational class */
11:02:12 <esolangs> [[DOG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144786&oldid=144747 * None1 * (+28) /* External resources */
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11:47:20 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144787&oldid=144501 * Iddi01 * (+117) lots of minor fixes
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14:28:59 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144788&oldid=144520 * Ractangle * (-2) I take that back
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14:37:13 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144789&oldid=144787 * Ais523 * (+61) /* The rule of nine */ partial rv the rule of nine is about attacking from the tenth cell, and although some slow rush programs do attack from further away, this is generally considered to be a rule of nine violation rather than part of the rule
14:39:48 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144790&oldid=144789 * Ais523 * (+40) /* Poke */ partial rv the point isn't the number of decoys but the distance from the flag, which "advanced" reflected but "additional" doesn't write it out more clearly
14:40:29 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144791&oldid=144790 * Ais523 * (-20) /* Reverse tripwire avoidance */ partial rv what makes you think the program was untested?
14:42:36 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144792&oldid=144791 * Ais523 * (-12) /* Defense */ reword/clarify
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14:44:34 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144793&oldid=144792 * Ais523 * (-8) /* Probabilistic lock */ partial rv "usually" doesn't really make sense given that we are talking about probabilities here the possibility of a good or bad timing matchup is included in the proportion of the time that the lock is gained
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15:37:26 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144794&oldid=144788 * Ractangle * (+56) /* interpreter */
15:37:53 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144795&oldid=144794 * Ractangle * (+30) /* interpreters */
15:42:12 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144796&oldid=144793 * Iddi01 * (+104) /* Reverse tripwire avoidance */ Look at the history, the author said it was untested
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16:11:56 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144797&oldid=144795 * Ractangle * (-5) /* interpreters */
16:13:49 <wWwwW> can anybody aswer Guest60(it was me)
16:13:53 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144798&oldid=144797 * Ractangle * (-26) /* print */
16:14:40 <esolangs> [[Hello world!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144799 * Ractangle * (+27) Redirected page to [[Hello, world!]]
16:15:21 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144800&oldid=144798 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello world */
16:20:59 <esolangs> [[JAGL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144801&oldid=144762 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Syntax */
16:21:14 <esolangs> [[JAGL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144802&oldid=144801 * Ractangle * (-30) /* Syntax */
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16:38:40 <Guest67> I have a programming question, can I get information about esoteric languages from the site https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page using sparql as I would for wikidata (ex: SELECT ?propertyLabel ?valueLabel WHERE {
16:38:41 <Guest67> wd:Q244627 ?property ?value .
16:38:41 <Guest67> SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
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16:41:25 <korvo> Guest67: IIUC there aren't SPARQL endpoints builtin for MediaWiki; we'd need to add an extension of some sort.
16:41:47 <korvo> Note that most pages on the wiki are *not* sufficiently annotated to allow for useful queries anyway. The wiki isn't a relational database at all.
16:42:27 <wWwwW> why is it so rare we change featured lang?
16:42:46 <korvo> wWwwW: It still doesn't make sense to "integrate monads" into lambda calculus; are you thinking of Kleisli categories or something else?
16:43:19 <korvo> Featured pages usually have to meet some minimum standard, and most pages on the wiki are clearly one-person vanity stubs.
16:43:21 <wWwwW> im thinking of like
16:43:48 <wWwwW> the programming monads with like functions and classes
16:44:47 <Guest67> so the only way to retrieve info from <https://esolangs.org/> is using requests, BeautifulSoup or something like these?
16:53:08 <wWwwW> also idk why but im trygint o get like a ps1 or 2 onto a fucking spynet smartwatch style thing
16:54:02 <korvo> wWwwW: Monads in programming are merely a special case of monads in category theory.
16:54:29 <korvo> Guest67: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_dumps
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16:57:44 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe let's take a step back. What *is* a programming monad?
16:58:47 <wWwwW> im actually not sure
16:58:51 <wWwwW> ik what a monad is
16:58:58 <wWwwW> but not a proglang one
17:00:24 <korvo> Pretend that each language has a category given by its types. Most languages don't actually have categories this way, but we can pretend. Then a proglang monad is just a monad on that category of types.
17:02:10 <korvo> wWwwW: Does that make sense? We can go with an example if you like. What's your favorite monad?
17:03:01 <wWwwW> cant any function be turned into a monad but making it like a class or smth
17:04:14 <korvo> No. Recall that a monad is always carried by a functor.
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17:08:56 <korvo> wWwwW: So, what's your favorite monad?
17:09:10 <wWwwW> i dont rlly have one tbh
17:09:20 <wWwwW> maybe the infinite monad
17:09:30 <wWwwW> the monad of x where x is the monad of x
17:09:32 <korvo> I don't know that one. What's its type signature?
17:09:46 <wWwwW> i like kinda just made it up
17:09:50 <korvo> Okay, so you *don't* know what a monad is, then.
17:10:15 <wWwwW> its a monoid of the endofuctors of x
17:10:21 <korvo> Okay, and what is a functor?
17:10:53 <wWwwW> the like morphism(kinda) between categories whích maps elements of one category to another
17:11:56 <korvo> Okay, I think I see the confusion. Think of an individual category as its own universe, its own world, separate from all of the others. A morphism *inside* a category doesn't have any meaning *outside* the category. Functors aren't morphisms in that sense.
17:12:49 <korvo> Instead, a functor is a map from one universe to another. To keep it rigid, a functor must map identity morphisms to identity morphisms, and all diagrams must commute. If something is true before applying the functor, then it is still true after applying the functor.
17:13:23 <korvo> So a monad is a monoid on this universe-to-universe mapping setup, not a monoid of ordinary functions.
17:14:09 <wWwwW> waht does is identity morphism
17:15:23 <korvo> Well, remember how identity and composition work? Let X, Y, and Z be objects in a category C, let f : X -> Y and g : Y -> Z be arrows, and let F be a functor from C to some other category D.
17:16:13 <korvo> We want F(f) : F(X) -> F(Y) and F(g) : F(Y) -> F(Z) to compose in D to give F(f;g) : F(X) -> F(Z). And that's the same first building f;g : X -> Z in C, and then applying F.
17:16:59 <korvo> That's all that I mean by "commute". It's a fairly classic diagram; check out nLab's version: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/files/functor.jpg
17:17:17 <korvo> In that picture, h = f;g.
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17:19:12 <korvo> Guest9: No worries. Thanks for asking and not just scraping.
17:19:36 <korvo> With requests or BeautifulSoup or etc.
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17:21:59 <Guest9> i have a esolang concept
17:22:14 <Guest9> and i rlly need to know if its gud cuz its going to take lots of time
17:25:38 <ais523> you're unlikely to get advice unless you tell people what it is
17:25:53 <Guest9> i just wanted to knwo if ppl would want to hear it
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17:26:23 <Guest9> ehrre younhave a single(or 2) commands to change x y of pointer and thats it
17:26:33 <Guest9> maybe theres like a tape with instructions on it but idk
17:27:02 <ais523> Guest9: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge and its derivatives (e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turn_Left)? those change the direction of the pointer, not its position, but it's similar
17:27:50 <Guest9> im going for a jolverine style esolang
17:28:17 <Guest9> also i havent read them but like
17:31:06 <Guest9> also my goal is to teatch myself to work eith 2d compilers
17:31:14 <Guest9> like how to compile 2d langs
17:31:33 <ais523> I think the main challenge of that language will be coming up with a command that works
17:31:46 <ais523> in the early days of esolangs.org, there were a lot of failed attempts at 1Ls
17:32:23 <Guest9> it would prop be conditinal
17:32:28 <ais523> if you're interested in the "tape with instructions idea" on it, look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turning_tarpit; Wunnel is an example of a 1L turning-tarpit, but you might want to take innovations from some of the others
17:32:32 <korvo> FWIW there's no meaningful difference between 1D and 2D bytecode when it comes to writing a compiler. The dimensionality of bytecode is usually 1D for sanity and to map to hardware.
17:33:19 <korvo> I suppose I should write a JIT for one of the popular 2D languages to show this off. Not sure which one to pick though.
17:33:20 <Guest9> ais523 im not sure bout that part
17:33:28 <ais523> korvo: bytecode doesn't map to hardware anyway, it's always interpreted
17:33:35 <Guest9> and yes ik bout turning tarpits
17:34:11 <ais523> also, Befunge was designed to be basically impossible to compile, this is why it has things like the put command, and (in Funge-98) flying instruction pointer movement
17:34:32 <int-e> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/monoid ...this concept has way too many different definitions.
17:34:38 <korvo> ais523: The original insight of JIT is that we can homomorphically map bytecode to *sequences* of machine code. From there, an online incremental compiler is mostly an engineering challenge. Check out Self's original eight-instruction VM for an example.
17:34:48 <korvo> But yeah, I agree.
17:35:41 <ais523> the `k` command is also something of an obstacle: when writing a post on codegolf stack exchange I eventually gave up trying to describe what "kr" does, only describing the more easily defined cases
17:36:45 <korvo> Guest9: Yes, you should always be willing to try to write an interpreter.
17:37:26 <ais523> fwiw, Advance The Wheel! is by far my favourite turning tarpit – it gives the turningness a reason to exist rather than just being syntax
17:37:48 <Guest9> you made it i think right?
17:37:57 <Guest9> then ofc you would like it
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17:38:21 <ais523> well, yes – I have lots of esolang ideas but don't usually make them into languages unless they're good
17:38:55 <korvo> I actually dislike most of what I've made. But I suppose that that is not typical.
17:39:23 <ais523> I dislike many of my early languages, I got better over time
17:39:40 <ais523> Burn wouldn't be interesting if not for the whole "I forgot the spec and wrote about it anyway" thing, I think
17:42:15 <korvo> Many folks have told me that Monte's syntax is terribly ugly. I wish to tell them that it's not only ugly, but irritating to read when writing large pattern-matches.
17:43:03 <korvo> Also it has a bunch of bad ergonomics from blending Python and E syntax. In particular, it supports *both* indentation and braces for nesting and scoping.
17:43:26 <ais523> Haskell does that too, and it isn't disastrous there
17:43:36 <wWwwW> ok can i get an actual answer...like im just not sure
17:43:38 <ais523> although Haskell's indentation rules are different from Pyhton's
17:44:12 <ais523> wWwwW: writing the interpreter will probably do you good, but it'll take a lot of thought to get the language itself right
17:44:26 <ais523> the nice thing is, even if you get it wrong, you can probably easily modify the interpreter to process different commands
17:44:35 <ais523> so you can start that before the language is fully designed
17:45:23 <korvo> wWwwW: An actual answer includes the Command Pattern, which is not only a fair bit ahead of your current knowledge but usually not taught due to controversy over design patterns.
17:45:46 <wWwwW> it will only have one command anyway(other than NOP
17:45:47 <ais523> korvo: which one is that?
17:45:56 <ais523> generally speaking, I know patterns but not what they're called
17:46:05 <korvo> Basically, a language is a way to *instruct* a system. So, designing a language can be done by designing the system first, and then writing down the instructions based on the things that the system can do.
17:46:36 <korvo> ais523: It's got a couple names. It's the realization that a sequence of method calls against an API object is equivalent to a straight-line bytecode sequence for a machine.
17:47:44 <ais523> NetHack4 uses what's basically a command pattern to communicate from windowport to engine
17:47:47 <korvo> At a past job, we used this insight to design an instrumentation/monitoring tool. Users could write a string describing what they wanted to measure, and the string was interpreted as a command for a system which controls probes and gathers data.
17:48:10 <ais523> although, it allows parameters to be "ask me using a callback" rather than containing specific values (although, specific values are also allowed)
17:48:25 <korvo> Yep, GUIs and TUIs do commands all the time. There's an old ADT called "wid" for this; Monte's got an implementation, although the best-known one is certainly Python's Urwid.
17:51:08 <korvo> Looking at 1L, is it known whether a 3D workspace suffices for TCness?
17:51:23 <wWwwW> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
17:51:25 <ais523> korvo: what 1L do you mean?
17:51:31 <ais523> 1L is a general term crossing a range of languages
17:52:40 <ais523> huh, I just had an idea – 0L, it's a playfield full of NOPs, but you can somehow program by choosing what shape it is (it's not just a rectangle), not sure how to make that TC but it seems like an interesting idea
17:53:23 <ais523> I'll have to spend a few days thinking about it before it becomes something coherent
17:53:49 <wWwwW> if oyu get that done
17:53:54 <korvo> Yeah, similarly I'm not sure how to answer your question but now I'm thinking of different 3D crystal structures.
17:55:07 <ais523> I think it'd pretty much have to be called 0L to keep the pattern going
17:56:00 <korvo> I think I convinced myself that the crystal-structure approach is useless. The wallpaper group (and friends) are finite and I genuinely can't imagine an un- or semidecidable problem on them s.t. there's a meaningful computational problem behind it.
17:56:39 <korvo> It'd end up like Seventeen or Bust, where the question is sufficiently concrete and arithmetic to be reduced to searching for solutions of polynomials.
17:57:06 <korvo> This was important because otherwise I was ready to use the language name "But Is It Wallpaper?"
17:59:21 <ais523> I'm reminded of one of my old esolang ideas that I gave up on because I couldn't find a way to make it interesting
17:59:51 <korvo> Yeah. If anybody comes up with a good intersection of But Is It Art? and the wallpaper group, go for it. I'm not seeing one, though; the finiteness of this group is extremely geometric.
18:00:01 <wWwwW> for an array how was it now agian
18:00:06 <ais523> there is a infinite, procedurally generated with fixed seed (so it's always the same) 3D space that contains a number of reflective objects, and the program is a laser where you can choose exactly where it starts and where it's pointing, then it bounces off the objects forever
18:00:10 <wWwwW> you indexed it like x and y
18:00:14 <esolangs> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144803&oldid=72234 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+405) Interpreter, categories
18:00:32 <ais523> but I ended up having to make the 3D space too uninterestingly "artificial" to get close to TCness
18:00:48 <esolangs> [[SWCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144804&oldid=144707 * Ractangle * (+135) /* Charecter table */
18:01:19 <esolangs> [[Binary-encoded Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144805&oldid=140122 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1) /* Encoding */
18:01:33 <korvo> Er, I should say, the finiteness of the set of wallpaper groups, combined with the simple procedures for determining which group describes the given observations, is extremely geometric. There's an entire discipline, crystallography, where people look at a picture and then tell you the corresponding group.
18:02:07 <wWwwW> korvo you told be what the array index was so what was it?
18:02:09 <ais523> I am reminded of the way that the entire set of Archimedean solids is known
18:02:26 <ais523> with a couple of infinite families and then a finite number of others
18:02:38 <korvo> wWwwW: Take your rectangle grid and slice it into rows. Line up the rows to make a 1D array.
18:06:12 <esolangs> [[Conditional Bee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144806&oldid=144743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) Categories
18:06:34 <korvo> wWwwW: Suppose each row has s items. If you want to access row i and column j, then you'd want to access index (j * s + i) in the 1D array. Why is that?
18:06:48 <esolangs> [[Conditional brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144807&oldid=74791 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* See also */ Link
18:07:22 <wWwwW> the j(y) will be moved by one row every time and then we add i(x)
18:07:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:SWCE Charecter s.png]]"
18:07:44 <korvo> Great! Sounds like you understand.
18:08:00 <wWwwW> i just needed to make sure
18:08:14 <esolangs> [[SWCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144809&oldid=144804 * Ractangle * (+88) /* Making a charecter */
18:08:20 <esolangs> [[InPro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144810&oldid=144740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) Categories
18:08:36 <korvo> This is the typical way of implementing large multidimensional arrays. As long as you know the depth/width/height of most of the dimensions (except one, for rows) then you can always do this same arithmetic.
18:08:40 <esolangs> [[SWCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144811&oldid=144809 * Ractangle * (+49) /* Making a charecter */
18:09:10 <esolangs> [[Conditional Bee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144812&oldid=144806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) Categories
18:11:02 <korvo> wWwwW: Try it! Suppose that I have a 4D array, sometimes called a "tensor". I know that the strides (depth/width/height/etc.) are s, t, and u. How would I compute the index at the address i, j, k, l?
18:11:25 <wWwwW> plz not rn im making the compiler
18:11:27 * korvo maybe going too fast
18:11:34 <ais523> korvo: I've seen "tensor" used to name two unrelated things and neither is a 4D array :-D
18:11:37 <korvo> Oh, cool. Have fun!
18:11:43 <wWwwW> * korvo is going too fast lol
18:12:03 <wWwwW> my command will just move the pointer diagonally
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18:13:53 <korvo> ais523: I think the tensors in General Relativity are 4D? But yeah, usually folks mean a 2D or 3D array destined for matrix multiplication, I guess.
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18:45:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Tougne]] to [[Pycone]]
19:06:47 <esolangs> [[Pycone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144816&oldid=144814 * Ractangle * (+259)
19:07:48 <esolangs> [[Pycone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144817&oldid=144816 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Truth-machine */
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23:58:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yuroyumachi * New user account
00:06:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144818&oldid=144774 * Yuroyumachi * (+161)
00:13:32 <int-e> . o O ( lacol knil prefix = 0:80fe::/32 )
00:14:47 <int-e> (based on a report in german that sees a provider reply to DHCPv6 requests from that subnet, in german: https://hilfe.o2online.de/dsl-kabel-glasfaser-router-software-internet-telefonie-34/dsl-ipv6-pd-dhcpv6-eventueller-fehler-seitens-o2-640621 )
00:16:18 <ais523> you can reply to a DHCP request in German?
00:16:38 <int-e> I don't see why not
00:16:46 <ais523> I guess it would be possible to reply to an HTTP request in German (at the expense of the browser not being able to understand the headers), maybe DHCP works the same way
00:17:44 <int-e> I wrote "in german" twice because the second one was an afterthought while editing on an 80 character wide text prompt in irssi
00:18:31 <int-e> it's but one of many dangers on the internet ;)
00:24:52 <int-e> (The best part of that exchange is the person who says that 0:80fe::/6 should be 0:80fe::/16 instead. Counting is hard.)
00:30:59 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is release incident pilot.
00:31:02 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is release incident pilot.
00:45:57 <esolangs> [[User:Yuroyumachi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144819 * Yuroyumachi * (+116) I love you;)
00:46:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yuroyumachi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144820 * Yuroyumachi * (+96) Created page with "--~~~~"
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02:21:27 <b_jonas> Guest67: also https://esolangs.org/w/api.php with docs at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Main_page ; or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Export
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04:55:14 <esolangs> [[Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144822&oldid=92844 * PrySigneToFry * (+313)
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05:45:27 <wWwwW> im done with my prototype compiler! korvo
05:51:57 <wWwwW> https://collab.pi7.org/GamePlayCodeLife
05:53:01 <wWwwW> and it doesnt work. wtf it should
06:01:47 <wWwwW> hey do you know why
06:06:01 <korvo> wWwwW: Fun. Looks like a 2D system.
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06:20:43 <wWwwW> also ais523 made any progress on the L0 idea?
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06:42:14 <wWwwW> i can get my interpreter to work so i give up
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08:24:26 <wWwwW> god i have the best and worst idea for an esolang
08:28:16 <esolangs> [[Sucks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144823&oldid=144713 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+21) /* Short form */
08:46:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Macro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144824&oldid=140802 * Yayimhere * (+89)
08:57:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144825&oldid=144821 * Ractangle * (-9)
08:59:29 <esolangs> [[Pycone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144826&oldid=144817 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
08:59:44 <esolangs> [[Pycone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144827&oldid=144826 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
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10:11:52 <esolangs> [[Pycone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144829&oldid=144827 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
11:05:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144830&oldid=143384 * Ractangle * (+180)
11:28:56 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144831 * Ractangle * (+437) Created page with "''''Python' is not recognized''' is a variant of [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] by [[User:Ractangle]] ==Syntax== {{cd|;}} stops the program since the code is a one-liner {{cd|:}} ta
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11:57:28 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144833&oldid=144832 * Ractangle * (+142) /* Syntax */
11:57:42 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144834&oldid=144833 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Syntax */
11:59:02 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144835&oldid=144834 * Ractangle * (+109) /* Syntax */
12:01:17 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144836&oldid=144376 * Ractangle * (-327) /* Programm forms */
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12:02:13 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144837&oldid=144836 * Ractangle * (-166) /* Esolangs */
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12:04:15 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144839&oldid=144838 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Esolangs */
12:06:13 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144840&oldid=144839 * Ractangle * (-3)
12:06:45 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144841&oldid=144840 * Ractangle * (-28) /* Esolangs */
12:07:04 <esolangs> [[None,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144842&oldid=135864 * Ractangle * (-118)
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12:27:56 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144843&oldid=143966 * ATProtogen * (-3540) Blanked the page
13:13:30 <esolangs> [[Joke Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144844&oldid=116188 * None1 * (+42) /* Examples */
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16:04:53 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144845&oldid=144241 * Ractangle * (-257) better implementation
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16:06:21 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144846&oldid=144845 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Implementation */
16:10:21 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144847&oldid=144846 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Examples? */
16:13:44 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144848&oldid=144352 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3) /* Calculator */
16:15:12 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144849&oldid=144835 * Ractangle * (+23)
16:17:14 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144850&oldid=142071 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+297) /* Programs */
16:20:33 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144851&oldid=144850 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-45) /* Hello, World! */
16:21:32 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144852&oldid=144851 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
16:21:42 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144853&oldid=144852 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* Hello, World! */
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17:13:39 <wWwwW> somebody throw a concept at me im so bored i want to make it into an esolang
17:15:47 <korvo> Give Lojban some semantics. Or pick another loglang. Or another englang. Or another auxlang.
17:16:01 <korvo> Warning: it could take more than a day.
17:16:30 <korvo> I've been working on it for like 5yrs and I'm only about 15% done.
17:17:01 <korvo> Meh. I should be done before I die.
17:17:11 <wWwwW> then no thx im like idk lol'
17:17:43 <korvo> Suit yourself. Some folks are even more ambitious; I don't think Knuth will finish his books before he dies.
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17:21:06 <wWwwW> any progress on L0?
17:22:08 <int-e> wWwwW: most of the links on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Yayimhere#esolangs represents an opportunity to improve the page, adding an interpreter and working examples. And probably modifications to the languages to make them actually do something. For example, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Leadfish has no way to grow the stack.
17:22:20 <ais523> wWwwW: you mean 0L? no, I was focusing on something else
17:22:44 <ais523> sometimes I have hobbies other than esolangs
17:23:22 <wWwwW> int-e for interpterers im stupid, and mostly rn ik want to make smth
17:41:39 <wWwwW> gimme a concept plz
17:42:34 <ais523> wWwwW: so over the last couple of weeks I have been trying to implement a terminal
17:42:43 <ais523> I don't think terminal control codes are TC but there are some interesting things they can do
17:42:58 <wWwwW> yes and? thats it?
17:43:23 <ais523> it's the sort of thing where I think "so what is the computational power of this?", but it's hard to tell because the standards are hard to read
17:43:33 <ais523> and nobody seems to implement them properly anyway
17:45:16 <ais523> anyway, that's the sort of thing that sometimes inspires an esolang, although it didn't with me
17:45:25 <esolangs> [[JS-CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144854&oldid=136902 * Ractangle * (-5) Removed redirect to [[Waretel BASIC]]
17:45:33 <int-e> wWwwW: but why are you designing programming languages if you can't program :-/
17:45:43 <ais523> I think it did with someone else, there was a serious attempt to use terminal control codes as a portable format for representing word-processed documents, but it didn't catch on
17:45:45 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144855&oldid=144228 * Ractangle * (+70)
17:45:52 <wWwwW> never get my interpteters to work
17:48:39 <int-e> Start with something simpler? I dunno, do a naive Game of Life implementation. You basically don't need parsing, just loops and arrays.
17:49:05 <wWwwW> its to the level were it makes no sense for it to not work
17:49:14 <int-e> Brainfuck is a nice target for very basic parsing (you need to match brackets)
17:49:28 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144856&oldid=144855 * Ractangle * (+10) /* Stuff to continue */
17:49:35 <wWwwW> idk how to do parsing and i never like
17:49:37 <wWwwW> it just never works
17:49:54 <int-e> Sorry but if it never works, then you don't know how to do it.
17:50:03 <ais523> int-e: "idk" means "i don't know" I think
17:50:27 <wWwwW> the other code i do does
17:50:31 <wWwwW> but ionterprters never
17:50:52 <int-e> ais523: Ah I did misread. (But I do know what "idk" means, the mistake was elsewhere, probably skipped a word or two.)
17:50:55 <ais523> I actually hate the way that it's so hard to generate basic parsers in most languages, and the ones where it's easy normally steer you into inefficient and broken ways of doing it
17:51:27 <ais523> this should be a solved problem by now (it was almost a solved problem decades ago, but we seem to have been going backwards since?)
17:51:50 <wWwwW> i only know python for now
17:51:59 <ais523> I have great ideas for improving on it, but not the mental energy to act on them
17:52:23 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144857&oldid=144856 * Ractangle * (+100) /* Stuff to continue */
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17:52:54 <ais523> like, I think a good easy-to-use parser-generator that integrates directly into the languages people use (without needing a separate build tool), and produces efficient and high-quality parsers with good error messages, would be really valuable
17:53:09 <ais523> right now the common wisdom is to write parsers by hand, which is ridiculous given how good computers should be at doing that
17:54:56 <int-e> It seems that people love parser combinators (despite their efficiency problems)... https://github.com/csams/parsr/blob/master/parsr/examples/arith.py
17:55:19 <int-e> (One of several of those for Python; I haven't used it.)
17:55:26 <ais523> parser combinators are bad in two ways: a) inefficiency, b) if you write an ambiguous grammar they don't notice and will just pick a parse arbitrarily
17:55:41 <ais523> meaning that nothing is automatically catching bugs in your parser
17:55:49 <ais523> or, indeed, in the grammar
17:56:11 <ais523> it is very easy to write an ambiguous grammar by mistake
17:56:43 <ais523> and this is important for programming language creators, when designing their language
17:57:11 <ais523> a parser-generator that verifies there are no ambiguities can be used to help debug your language specification, by ensuring you haven't accidentally created a situation where the same byte sequence means two different things
17:57:30 <ais523> (although ideally to make this work, there shouldn't be a separate lexer, in case there are lexing ambiguities like the whole 0.0 thing in Rust)
17:57:47 <ais523> or the a+++b thing in C
17:57:51 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144858&oldid=144857 * Ractangle * (+179) /* Stuff to continue */
17:59:03 <ais523> or the Type<Type<Param>> thing in C++, which actually came up quite a lot
17:59:26 <ais523> (I think Rust deals with that one by treating >> as a single token but allowing it to close two nesting levels of generics)
18:00:17 <korvo> Wait, what formalism are people thinking when they say "parser combinators"? I've seen a few. I'm guessing that this is recursive-descent combinators?
18:00:35 <ais523> korvo: normally it's backtracking combinators
18:00:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Malbolge is NOT enough hard!! * New user account
18:00:54 <korvo> ais523: Sure, those are definitely not efficient.
18:01:27 <ais523> which end up equivalent to recursive-descent if you apply them to an LL grammar, but typically people who use combinators don't care about the various types of grammar
18:02:25 <korvo> Meh. I care plenty about the grammar! But I care even more about getting the parser implemented. And usually there's at least one grammar, the grammar of grammars, which requires a bootstrapping parser.
18:02:32 <ais523> the problem, of course, is that this means that backtracking parser combinators have wildly varying performance characteristics based on something that isn't obvious from the source code, and in many simple cases they do end up fast
18:03:02 <korvo> Like, by the time people start caring about combinators, they've usually seen the bigger problem: writing an informal grammar is easy, but writing a formal grammar that can be mechanically turned into a parser is a PITA.
18:03:07 <ais523> korvo: well, the thing about the bootstrapping parser is that it's always the same, so it can easily be shipped as a library, maybe part of a language's standard library
18:03:23 <korvo> ais523: Yes, but that doesn't solve *my* problems as a language implementor.
18:03:52 <korvo> Like, yes, for everybody else, here is a library I've provided. But what library does Pagliacci use?
18:04:01 <ais523> I've actually started writing such a bootstrapping parser over the past couple of weeks, so that when I have the mental bandwidth to work on my parser-generator I will have a way to bootstrap it
18:04:48 <ais523> (I'm using POSIX yacc for the bootstrapping)
18:04:54 <korvo> I remember seeing ANTLR for the first time and realizing that there are dozens, if not hundreds of us, throwing our heads against this problem and coming back with nothing except RSI.
18:05:37 <ais523> only one person has to do this once – maybe it'll be me when I'm in a better mental state, and then all the language implementors can just use that solution
18:06:10 <ais523> yacc got close, its main issue is that the way it does precedence is overly tied to its own internals
18:06:38 <ais523> also it has no convenient way to do lists, and needs a separate lexer
18:06:46 <korvo> Well, the one person was Ian Piumerta and the one system was OMeta.
18:07:49 <ais523> I still prefer it over things like ANTLR because of the computational complexity (yacc, and Bison on LR grammars, are linear-time; Bison on arbitrary grammars is O(n²) for unambiguous inputs and O(n³) for ambiguous inputs, which I think are the best known computational classes)
18:08:31 <korvo> Sure. So is e.g. Marpa, which claims to merely be a fixed version of Earley's work.
18:08:44 <ais523> hmm, does ANTLR detect ambiguous grammars? (obviously it's uncomputable to determine whether a grammar is ambiguous, but an ambiguity detector with false positives is fine in practice)
18:09:09 <ais523> I've been collecting weird grammars, mostly written myself, as parser generator tests
18:09:34 <ais523> the grammars which are hard to check for ambiguity are very unnatural and don't look like the sort of thing anyone would write in a language spec
18:11:00 <korvo> When Allen Short wrote Parsley (for Python), we realized that Parsley could be extended to tree transformations and wrote about half of SML in it before we realized what had happened. The library Parsimonious, built on Parsley's internals, doesn't have any of that at all.
18:11:13 <ais523> I think it may always be the case that a grammar with uncomputable ambiguity checking always has some substring of input tokens that can be interpreted as opening/closing a different number of nesting levels (or in a different direction) depending on the context
18:11:16 <korvo> Which makes me wonder whether something like Prolog-style grammars were actually a decent option.
18:12:20 <ais523> well, there are good reasons to generate parsers in an inherently linear-time language (like a linear-bounded automaton, but for time rather than memory)
18:12:36 <ais523> I don't think it's possible to implement ML or Prolog in something like that
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18:13:47 <ais523> like, to me the problem is not "how do I get a working parser" but "how do I compile this parser description into something that runs in linear time"
18:14:37 <ais523> and that requires trying to find a powerful linear-time language to compile into; something like LR(1) is too restrictive in practice
18:14:53 <ais523> but it's possible to do, say, LR(*) (i.e. LR with regex lookahead) in linear time, which was fun to work out
18:15:11 <korvo> Ah. I put combinators over LPEG for that. LPEG started life as a Lua PEG runtime but morphed into a bytecode VM, and there's a nice homomorphism from parser combinators to LPEG bytecode.
18:15:48 <korvo> It's easy to show that LPEG bytecode can't jump too far backwards, and from there to show that the machine only eats each input character at most once.
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18:16:07 <ais523> (you compile the regex into a state machine that takes the input in reverse order, run over the input backwards to annotate each input token/byte with the appropriate regex state, then use the token/state pairs as LR(1) tokens)
18:16:38 <ais523> I don't like PEG because it is too easy to write a grammar that doesn't mean what you thought it would mean or what it looks like it would mean
18:17:35 <korvo> BTW when using compiler frameworks this usually isn't an open question. To write parsers in RPython, I'm basically obligated to use RPLY, an RPython version of Baezley's PLY library. And if my grammar is nasty, like recently with Nix, then I get to write my own Earley setup.
18:18:02 <korvo> PEG's just CFG but all choices are ordered. If it's not clear how to order each choice, then the original CFG might not be unambiguous.
18:18:31 <ais523> well, "A / B" in a PEG means "either an A, or a B that does not start with an A"
18:19:53 <ais523> so a grammar like «S: X | Y; X: 'd' | 'd' 'e' 'f'; Y: 'd' 'e' | 'd' 'e' 'f' 'g'» can't be translated to a PEG because there is a valid X that starts with a Y and a valid Y that starts with an X
18:20:31 <ais523> also, most popular PEG parsing algorithms are linear-time but with horrible constant factors
18:20:41 <korvo> And you're not a fan of `S1: X / Y; S2: Y / X; S: S1 / S2` I guess?
18:20:59 <korvo> Which is usually expressed via PEG's "unlimited" lookahead, but same idea.
18:21:15 <ais523> I didn't realise you could do that, and am now trying to figure out the implications
18:21:54 <korvo> PEG just insists that you not be allowed to provisionally accept an input. Either it's acceptable now, and we know which production it matches, or it's not acceptable now and we know that no production matches.
18:22:20 <korvo> It's just Earley without the bookkeeping and non-determinism.
18:22:48 <ais523> actually I don't think that even works: a Y that starts with an X is not an S1, and although it is an S2, it starts with an S1 and thus it is not acceptable for S
18:23:14 <ais523> so this just collapses down to be equivalent to S: X / Y
18:26:38 <korvo> Assuming X and Y have no lookaheads, yeah.
18:28:56 <ais523> so yes, I'm not a fan of it because it doesn't do what it looks like it's meant to do, or indeed anything useful at all :-D
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18:29:40 <korvo> Anyway, I think that Marpa's author isn't great at writing docs, but he does seem to have correctly cracked the issue of Earley parsers not always performing well on unambiguous grammars, and maybe the correct answer is to implement Marpa for popular languages.
18:30:31 <korvo> Also CYK is asymptotically what's desired, although its runtime constants are terrible since it can't predict in advance how much space will be needed.
18:31:04 <ais523> Bison uses GLR, which is asymptotically as good as Earley
18:31:18 <ais523> (and runs in O(n) time when the grammar happens to be LR(1))
18:33:45 <ais523> oh, that reminds me: I found a really nice formalism of parser-generator output, as repeated regex replacement (the operation that Perl calls s/regex/string/, where the string is a fixed string, although it runs on terminal/nonterminal mixes rather than character strings) – you express the parser as a set of mutually-exclusive regexes
18:34:39 <ais523> err, not quite s/regex/string/, the regex can match before and after the replaced portion
18:34:45 <ais523> so it's more like /regex/; $1 = string
18:35:01 <ais523> (I'm not sure if you can do that in Perl but you probably can, it's that sort of language)
18:35:26 <ais523> `perl-e $_ = "abcdef"; /b(cd)e/; $1 = "g"; print
18:35:29 <HackEso> Modification of a read-only value attempted at -e line 1.
18:36:32 <ais523> with most styles of parser it is possible to define a value for each terminal and non-terminal – if you state that replacements must reduce the total value of the string, that proves the parser runs in linear time
18:37:21 <ais523> and it is normally possible to do that except with nonterminals that match the empty string, those have to be given zero value, but if you make a rule that two copies of the same zero-value nonterminal can't appear without something with positive value in between, that also proves the parser runs in linear time
18:37:34 <ais523> err, negative value, not zero
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19:12:13 <ais523> oh neat, I found a terminal control code that's implemented consistently by every terminal I tested, but in a way that contradicts the relevant standard
19:12:26 <ais523> (the standard looked wrong when I read it – seems all the terminals agree)
19:13:24 <ais523> it is ESC [ number @, which moves the remainder of the line number positions to the right/forwards – the terminals and standard agree on that, but the standard also moves the cursor to the start of the line for some reason (even though that isn't useful), whereas the terminals leave it alone
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20:34:21 <b_jonas> and sometimes you know the grammar has some ambiguities, and you want to specify how those few are resolved, and prove that there are no other ambiguities, and prove that a specific way of writing the parse that you decided isn't allowed in an ambiguous case can be rewritten with some simple workaround which parses correctly. it gets complicated.
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20:37:31 <b_jonas> ais523: in perl, s/before\Kbetween(?=after)/replacement/ replaces just the middle part
20:38:43 <b_jonas> alternately you can use captures like s/(before)between(after)/${1}replacement$2/
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20:42:30 <b_jonas> though IME writing anything using repeated replacements like this correctly can be tricky
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20:45:09 <b_jonas> it's the same problem as with parsers, the match will be ambiguous and will not replace what you wanted to replace
20:45:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not intending it as something to write by hand, but as a computational model
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20:46:45 <ais523> in particular, it models both LR(1) and LL(*) correctly (because they in effect use a finite state automaton to determine the point where the replacement ends or starts respectively, and you can compile that into a regex)
20:47:20 <ais523> and there's a linear-time implementation which basically gives you a generic linear-time parser backend that isn't tied to particular linear-time algorithms
20:47:52 <b_jonas> right. the one piece of good news is that IIRC 64-bit perl supports characters with codes up to 2**63 in character strings, so you can encode your terminals and perl regexes will treat them as single characters.
20:48:55 <b_jonas> of course you might have to make sure that they don't occur in your input
20:48:58 <ais523> why do you need 64 bits for that? a) there's plenty of room between 0x10FFFF and 0xFFFFFFFF, b) there are private-use planes that you could use for nonterminals if you don't need them for something else
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20:50:34 <b_jonas> also it doesn't really help with regexps that they're single characters, so you only really need a few characters that don't occur in your input
20:51:42 <b_jonas> your parser generator may care about exactly how many symbols it looks ahead; perl regexps don't
20:52:00 <ais523> well my backend model doesn't care either
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20:57:06 <b_jonas> the brand of the light bulbs above me is "Trixline", so I almost have trilimes above me
21:05:16 <zzo38> Depending on the input format, you might be able to use all codes greater than 0xFF (or maybe 0x7E) too, if the input handling supports that
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21:06:52 <zzo38> (That is, if it deals with individual bytes. It is probably usually more useful for a regular expression to deal with individual bytes instead of UTF-8 if you do not need to handle non-ASCII characters in matching; that will also then work with other character sets than Unicode too, without needing to do any conversion.)
21:07:21 <zzo38> (If your input is UTF-16 or UTF-32, or another multibyte code, then the higher character codes are more useful for directly representing character codes.)
21:08:08 <zzo38> (Furthermore, what if you do not have a 64-bit computer?)
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21:13:12 <zzo38> I thought the character codes were limited to 32-bits, but now you say it can use 63-bits. I think that would waste more memory but also can be useful for reasons you describe and for other reasons (e.g. in case anyone actually uses 63-bit character codes, but that seems unlikely to me)
21:20:59 <ais523> a Perl string acts like an array of integers that represent character codes, but is internally stored using one of two compression schemes, one which works only when all the integers are small, and the other of which has a strong resemblance to UTF-8
21:21:32 <ais523> but, the details of the compression are supposed to be entirely invisible to the programmer (there are a few historical-reasons bugs that can expose them and a couple of APIs to expose them intentionally_
21:21:52 <zzo38> O, then it won't waste memory, but it will make the execution more complicated so might be less efficient for time even if the space is efficient.
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21:41:25 <b_jonas> ais523: also I still find the idea of no separate lexer stage strange, because separate lexing rules is how I find natural to think of languages. the lexer is there because I don't want a keyboard as huge as the number of possible tokens, so I type all by the most frequent tokens as multiple characters. yes, C++'s special lexer exceptions where >> and <: are sometimes not matched leftmost-longest as a
21:41:31 <b_jonas> token is an argument, but it's not strong enough to discard the whole idea of a lexer.
21:42:36 <b_jonas> also you usually want to attach a pointer to many of those nonterminals to store a parse tree or some other intermediate compiled representation, so just a bunch of s/// substitution rules could be hard to use.
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21:58:10 <ais523> b_jonas: I've been having a lot of fun figuring out how to optimise out the intermediate representation, or at least change it to something more efficient
21:59:13 <ais523> my current plan is to parse into reverse-Polish, then parse the resulting reverse-Polish string again backwards (which is LL(1)), which should be much faster than building a parse tree in applications that don't need one
22:00:09 <ais523> and the reason I don't like the idea of a separate lexer is that often lexing is context-dependent (to the extent that POSIX yacc has to precisely define the parser's evaluation order to let it interact with the lexer correctly, which in turn makes a lot of interesting optimisations impossible)
22:01:00 <ais523> given that a lexer can easily be expressed in the format typically used for parsers, it makes so much more sense for the parser and lexer to be in the same source file and same automaton – that way you get lexer context-dependence for free, and can check for ambiguities across lexer and parser together
22:02:16 <ais523> fwiw, I think it makes sense for both lexers *and parsers* to have a way to explicitly allow/ban particular things in the right context
22:02:24 <ais523> e.g. to say "an identifier cannot be followed by a letter"
22:02:39 <ais523> as a way to precisely describe disambiguation rules
22:04:55 <korvo> Maybe *this* is what tagless-final encoding is for. The parse tree only exists as an intermediate type which is reliably optimized out of the resulting call graph.
22:05:44 <korvo> I know catern has used this. They're also fairly opinionated, so it's worth being skeptical. Ditto with Oleg, who I think is the origin of the name "tagless-final".
22:07:02 <korvo> On lexers: they can increase the effective power of a parser, right? e.g. Python lexers emit INDENT and DEDENT tokens, letting a PEG parse an otherwise-context-sensitive grammar.
22:08:33 <ais523> korvo: only by increasing the effective power of a lexer
22:08:59 <ais523> finite-state machines can't do indent/dedent either, so if you are extending a lexer to be able to do that, you could alternatively extend a parser to be able to do that
22:09:27 <ais523> which might be important if the indent/dedent behaviour was different in two different places in the same input (imagine a parser for mixed Python and Haskell)
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22:16:11 <korvo> ais523: Oh, good point. I guess "power" is an overloaded word. Like, Python can be lexed in linear time (because every token piece is recognized by a regex), so it doesn't raise the practical time complexity of an amortized-linear PEG parser.
22:16:33 <korvo> Maybe the Chomsky hierarchy is not that useful?
22:16:49 <ais523> 2 and 3 seem to be the only practically useful parts
22:17:34 <ais523> because they put restrictions on things that are often possible to comply with and give you nice properties that can be exploited to, say, write linear-time parsers
22:17:38 <korvo> CFGs do feel like some sort of natural ceiling. And I guess we should be glad that recognition is in P, cubic even!
22:19:59 <ais523> in practice recognition is quadratic, it only becomes cubic if you the input exposes an ambiguity in the grammar, at which point you could reasonably reject it (thus, the cubic case is only useful when using dynamic precedence resolution rules)
22:20:36 <korvo> ...Maybe it's because of applicative trees. Concrete parses for CFGs always yield a well-behaved rooted tree. For CSGs I don't know what we get; like trees with a per-forest context? And eventually when we get to TMs we have traces of machine actions.
22:24:09 <b_jonas> "if the indent/dedent behaviour was different in two different places in the same input" => it kind of is, newlines are ignores in string literals, blank lines after a backslash continuation marker, and most interestingly inside parenthesis of any kind, so you have to recognize balanced parenthesis
22:25:00 <ais523> b_jonas: ooh, so Python's lexer has to do paren matching, which is the standard example of something that belongs in a parser and not a lexer
22:25:59 <int-e> the CFG can ignore indent/dedent inside of expressions
22:26:04 <korvo> Yep, Python descendants are required to not just measure indent depth but also keep a bracket/paren stack. And modern Python also includes E-style quasiliterals, which require the lexer to keep a QL piece stack.
22:26:18 <int-e> But I don't know what Python *does*.
22:26:37 <korvo> I haven't looked at ECMAScript's specification in a while. I wonder how they added "template literals", their E-style QLs.
22:26:43 <zzo38> Some programs will do some of the things together for various reasons, and for some programs, the result of the parser could control the working of lexer as well as other way around
22:26:55 <int-e> sorry, that doesn't work, it indeed has to be done by the lexer
22:27:13 <zzo38> What is "E-style quasiliterals"?
22:27:43 <int-e> hiding context-sensitive stuff in lexer + postprocessing after parsing is standard anyway
22:28:06 <int-e> The most egregious example is dealing with identifiers and scope.
22:28:08 <b_jonas> ais523: you can imagine it as four or fivr stages instead of just a lexer and parser: first you lex most tokens including find the end of single-line or multi-line literals and single-line comments, then you match parenthesis (of all kind), then you find the newlines that matter and mark ident and dedent tokens, then you do the rest
22:28:11 <ais523> Rust lets you do things like let a = 4; let b = 5; println!("a = {a} and b = {b}");
22:28:38 <ais523> but I know how it does that, identifier ! ( … ) runs arbitrary code on what's inside the parentheses, which has a rule that the parentheses have to match and not many other rules
22:28:54 <korvo> E-style is an extension of what Perl had; you can do `this kind of $variable interpolation`, but also `pattern-match @piece by @piece with backtracking` and e`def embed { any.legal($ast) }` as a splice.
22:28:55 <ais523> and that code returns a parse tree that gets inserted at that point in the source
22:29:46 <ais523> int-e: I agree that identifiers/scope is effectively a major part of parsing that parser formalisms gloss over
22:29:54 <ais523> and have been wondering about how to fit it directly into a parsing automaton
22:31:26 <zzo38> In PostScript, a {} block is a single token that can contain other tokens. The // prefix makes that the value of the token is whatever the following name refers to at the time of being tokenized, rather than the value of the token being the name itself (which it is if the // prefix is omitted).
22:31:48 <int-e> attribute grammars try to do that kind of things, right?
22:32:40 <int-e> (AIUI they *embrace* the CFG approximation but try to incorporate post-processing inside the grammar in a formal way.)
22:33:07 <korvo> ais523: In LPEG I found myself wanting a GENSYM bytecode. I also needed to gensym when doing miniKanren and couldn't find a way to do it.
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22:37:05 <b_jonas> ais523: also python parsing runs into the problem where a variable or tuple constructor call can appear syntactically either in an expression/rvalue or a pattern/lvalue, they mean different things in the two syntactical contexts, and you pretty much have to do the whole parsing blindly before you can determine which occurrances are in pattern/lvalue context.
22:38:39 <b_jonas> also there's a third context, patterns for case statements, which you *can* recognize in advance, but they're somewhat similar to ordinary patterns/lvalues, so you have to figure out how not to duplicate the shared part of syntax and semantics
22:39:21 <ais523> b_jonas: what does the right-context look like, to make the same left-context into either an expression or pattern?
22:39:40 <ais523> …I have suddenly realised why Rust says "if let" and not just "if"
22:40:01 <ais523> it's to let whatever comes after "let" unambiguously parse as a pattern
22:41:53 <korvo> Yep, same with E "def", ECMAScript "let" and "const", Monte "object". Not Python "class" though; they just required INDENT first!
22:42:21 <b_jonas> ais523: there's like ten different productions for lvalue context. assignment statement `lvalue = rvalue`, for loop head `for lvalue in rvalue`, with statement head, expect clause head, after `for` in an array/iterator/dictionary display eg. `[rvalue for lvalue in rvalue]`, and probably more that I forget
22:42:38 <b_jonas> and of course inside a tuple or array in lvalue context too
22:43:51 <b_jonas> I've seen this same problem when making one of geo or scan by the way
22:44:30 <ais523> this reminded me of something else: I realised recently that assignment operations are "backwards" and should place the variable being assigned to on the right, so that the statement reads in order
22:44:53 <ais523> «e = a.b().c().d()» makes you jump back to the start of the statement after reaching the end
22:45:33 <ais523> (I realised a bit less recently that pointer dereference should be postfix, for the same reason – it is in Pascal, but prefix in C for some reason, which is why it needs a separate -> syntax)
22:45:36 <int-e> ais523: Rust also does the C thing where `a = b` is an expression.
22:45:56 <ais523> int-e: sure, but that isn't mutually exclusive with pattern matches
22:46:19 <ais523> there's no reason why (x, y) = (1, 2) couldn't assign to two different variables and return the same tuple that was matched against
22:46:27 <int-e> well the semantics of if a = false and if let a = false are quite different
22:47:15 <ais523> the former cares about the boolean value assigned to a, the latter about whether the assignment was possible
23:06:04 <b_jonas> ais523: in rust that doesn't really work because it would have to copy x and y which isn't always possible
23:06:31 <ais523> no, it'd have to copy the tuple
23:06:34 <ais523> which can be done if it's Copy
23:06:52 <b_jonas> yes, and copying the tuple has to copy its members
23:07:14 <ais523> but x and y aren't the members, 1 and 2 are
23:07:33 <ais523> most languages with chained assignments return the value being assigned, not the variable being assigned to (Perl is weird in that respect)
23:07:43 <b_jonas> right, 1 and 2 are of copiable types
23:08:05 <ais523> I feel like we're agreeing with each other?
23:08:14 <b_jonas> also is it true that BASIC dialects differ in what `LET X = Y = 0` means?
23:08:45 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me, but OTOH I'd expect it to be a parse error in many of them
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23:25:49 <Soni> has anyone done something like this? https://discuss.kotlinlang.org/t/an-alternative-to-checked-exceptions-that-actually-works-for-catching-bugs/23079
23:26:34 <int-e> I'd /expect/ it to compare Y and 0 and assign X a value based on that.
23:33:52 <korvo> Soni: Have you seen Elm or its offspring, like Derw or Roc? They propose to take one of Standard ML's memes seriously: well-typed programs *cannot* go wrong.
23:35:14 <korvo> I wouldn't recommend *using* Elm, due to serious implementation issues, but it's good food for thought.
23:35:42 <Soni> maybe if it had global typestate
23:36:02 <korvo> Like, what kinds of faults can be caught anyway? What does it mean to have an unexpected fault coming through your call frame?
23:37:20 <Soni> do you know about global typestate?
23:37:39 <korvo> My language Cammy is pursuing the same meme from a different angle, via OCaml's tradition. But I gave up on exceptions entirely; a Cammy expression *cannot* go wrong, and type failures can only happen at the very beginning and end of the program, when the caller makes a mistake.
23:40:32 <korvo> I don't know that exact phrase. Searching gives me this paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2107.13101 I know the typestate pattern; I'm more interested in structural approaches, but it seems alright for a nominal approach.
23:42:02 <korvo> At that point, though, I'd argue that the language should add algebraic laws instead of putting more work into the typechecker. It'd be a better investment that covers the same theorem-proving territory.
23:43:12 <Soni> global typestate is an approach to solving signal safety
23:43:38 <Soni> we would like to see global typestate in rust, and deprecation/removal of existing rust globals
23:44:46 <Soni> that paper appears to be about global analysis of typestate, so... slightly different issue
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23:48:54 <Soni> (is "deprecating globals" esoteric enough for #esolangs ?)
23:56:36 <zzo38> I would think that in BASIC, "LET X = Y = 0" would set X to -1 if the value of Y is zero or 0 if nonzero, although different implementations might do differently
23:57:24 <zzo38> A program that I had partially written and am continuing to do, is converting a custom ASCII-text-based format that I had made up into DER format, and the parsing in that program has its own way of working; e.g. the tokenizer only reads the beginning of a string and the rest of the string literal is parsed by the function that encodes it.
23:57:39 <zzo38> Which escape codes are allowed in a string literal depends on its type, and there are other stuff as well
23:59:07 <korvo> Soni: Signal safety is definitely esoteric. Have you considered not doing signals instead?
23:59:48 <Soni> korvo: but where's the fun in that :D
00:05:10 <Soni> imagine being the first programming language to provide signal-safety while still having fully-featured signal handling
00:05:20 -!- Thelie has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:05:31 <Soni> (and being a pain to use, but we digress)
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00:09:25 <korvo> I don't want to handle signals. I want to politely ignore their existence.
00:09:44 <korvo> Or, if I have an event loop, then I want signals to politely wait their turn.
00:18:18 <Soni> oh okay so you're not into challenges, got it
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00:28:57 <korvo> Indeed, I think that secure distributed computing should not be difficult. As a special case, I think that single-user single-machine computing should not be difficult.
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00:38:24 <Soni> why not make signal handling secure?
00:44:01 <ais523> korvo: I realised a while back that asynchronous signals are, in effect, a form of user input
00:44:54 <ais523> which is why handling them in the event loop makes sense
00:45:17 <korvo> Soni: Signals create "stale stack frames", so to speak; they interrupt a computation in a way that leaves cleanup unspecified.
00:45:22 <ais523> I can see potential exceptions for things like lease breaks in noninteractive code, though
00:45:42 <Soni> korvo: stack frames aren't real
00:46:08 <Soni> it's all global state
00:46:15 <ais523> like, say you're reading and processing a really large file, and then the OS tells you that some process is about to change the file while you're reading it, and if you don't stop reading it in 2 seconds you will get undefined behaviour
00:46:16 <korvo> Soni: How is an object supposed to preserve internal invariants if it can be interrupted at any moment and possibly never restored?
00:46:58 <ais523> I can see wanting to handle that without a full event loop
00:47:17 <Soni> korvo: there's an easy answer to that actually! how do you pre-poop your pants?
00:48:11 <ais523> <korvo> Soni: How is an object supposed to preserve internal invariants if it can be interrupted at any moment and possibly never restored? ← clearly by using only atomic changes
00:48:13 <Soni> you could make said object completely inaccessible ("leaking is safe")
00:49:15 <ais523> ah yes, "anything that is interrupted leaks" can also be a reasonable way to make things work sometimes, although if that rule is applied too blindly you end up leaking the entire computer
00:49:23 <ais523> which is safe but not particularly useful, or even particularly easy to define
00:49:33 <Soni> (and you should. the allocator? yeah, can't touch that anymore. you're welcome!)
00:50:13 <korvo> I know that event loops just came up, but we're not talking about politely pausing computation on an isolated actor and synchronizing its state using some sort of global orthogonal persistence. We were talking about UNIX-style signals.
00:50:46 <ais523> korvo: asynchronous UNIX-style signals can and should be handled in an event loop as long as you can make sure it runs often enough
00:50:49 <Soni> how do processes manage preempting-safety
00:51:11 <korvo> ais523: Yes, that's the right answer.
00:51:50 <korvo> But at that point they're not signals, but some sort of magic FD or magic syscall.
00:51:51 <Soni> okay, give us an event loop that can handle SIGSEGV :v
00:52:10 <ais523> the main exception is for noninteractive processes, where the correct behaviour is a little harder to define – you may need a "signal pump" specifically for interacting with signals, when the program doesn't take input normally
00:52:16 <ais523> Soni: SIGSEGV is a synchronous signal
00:52:35 <ais523> normally, at least (it is possible to send a process a synthetic SIGSEGV but doing so is very rare)
00:52:41 <int-e> and not one that you'd ordinarily handle
00:52:58 <Soni> SIGSEGV is the main reason to use signals
00:53:00 <ais523> int-e: handling synchronous SIGSEGV isn't a totally weird thing to do, there are libraries for it
00:53:11 <korvo> e.g. https://www.gnu.org/software/libsigsegv/
00:53:27 * int-e finds it ironic that the person who wants to eliminate globals is now asking to tackle a mechanism that's objectively worse cleanly.
00:53:32 <ais523> but at that point, it is happening in known locations of your code so it doesn't act at all like an asynchronous signal any more, just a weird sort of if statmenet
00:53:46 <korvo> Event loops really should be run on top of GC, but I can imagine wanting to handle them in the underlying runtime, and this sort of library
00:54:06 <Soni> most high-performance language VMs use it
00:54:08 <int-e> ais523: I still think it's not something you'd usually do.
00:54:09 <ais523> korvo: what do you mean by "on top of" here?
00:54:32 <int-e> But maybe I'm naive to think that.
00:55:14 <ais523> int-e: it's not something I'd normally do because I prefer the technique of allocating huge amounts of address space, in such a way that the physical memory backing it is allocated lazily
00:55:22 <Soni> (luajit, JVM, V8, wasm2c, ...)
00:55:23 <ais523> that way there are fewer calls into the kernel
00:55:35 <ais523> but I'm not sure how many OSes support that
00:56:20 <Soni> int-e: sometimes we shouldn't ask if we should, but if we can. and we think we can.]
00:56:22 <korvo> ais523: Like, the actual message-handling actions should not have to do any manual allocation. Google's Native Client is a good historic example of how it just can't be made secure.
00:56:27 <int-e> Soni: VMs aren't your usual application code.
00:56:30 <ais523> it is very useful to have some way to allocate memory lazily, though, and making use of the page fault if you access a paged-out page of memory is one of the better ways to do it
00:57:07 <ais523> korvo: are you talking about allocating memory in signal handlers?
00:57:20 <Soni> int-e: unless you're in #esolangs :p
00:57:32 <ais523> that was a huge problem for me in NH4 – malloc traditionally doesn't work in signal handlers and it took a while to figure out how to work around the issue
00:57:44 <int-e> Eh I'd rather piggy-back on an existing VM than write my own. YMMV.
00:57:56 <korvo> ais523: Huh, effectively, I guess yeah. I wasn't thinking of it that way.
00:58:26 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that it is possible to write an async-signal-safe malloc, at least in some programming languages (I think it might not be possible in Rust, though)
00:58:37 <ais523> (at least, not without inline asm)
00:59:32 <Soni> ais523: we don't want it
00:59:55 <ais523> I want an async-signal-safe malloc, at least
01:00:11 <int-e> Soni's pluralizing themselves all the time.
01:00:34 <Soni> we want this more than anything https://docs.rs/stdworld/0.1.1/src/std/lib.rs.html#1-156
01:01:05 <Soni> because why should a signal handler be able to use the allocator when the allocator isn't signal-safe
01:02:37 <Soni> why solve a problem when you can just avoid it instead
01:02:39 <ais523> this is easily fixed using capabilities, I think? being able to allocate memory is a type of capability
01:02:49 <ais523> you can make it available to most code, but not to signal handlers
01:03:08 <Soni> being able to allocate memory implies access to a &mut GlobalAllocator
01:03:40 <Soni> just gotta tie that &mut to regular code and forbid it from crossing into a signal handler
01:03:50 <ais523> the GlobalAllocator object is a type of capability, in that ase
01:03:58 <Soni> (just like Send and Sync prevent crossing into threads)
01:04:06 <ais523> code that has it can allocate, code that doesn't have it can't
01:04:36 <Soni> and unsafe code can make their own :v
01:04:54 <Soni> but why stop at allocators
01:05:25 <Soni> what happens if we move the entire global context and state into an object you carry around and pass into stuff
01:05:41 <ais523> Soni: I've been meaning to write a blog post on how to make doing that ergonomic
01:05:42 <Soni> that is to say, what if global state were a type(state)
01:06:18 <ais523> it is clearly an improvement, if you can find good syntax for it
01:06:42 <ais523> it's not just global *state*, though, also things like global permissions
01:06:49 <Soni> how do you find good syntax for it without experimenting with it
01:06:51 <ais523> "ability to send messages to the printer", for example
01:07:04 <Soni> we don't need permissions
01:07:06 <ais523> this is not a state, it contains no bits of information
01:07:15 <ais523> but it is something that should be guarded the same way
01:07:36 <ais523> especially because sometimes these things can't be done re-entrantly
01:07:38 <Soni> did you read the comments in stdworld?
01:07:45 <ais523> I skimmed some of htem
01:08:02 <ais523> it seems like it's still in its early stages
01:08:24 <Soni> is this useful extra context? https://users.rust-lang.org/t/new-signal-safe-std-replacement-looking-for-contributors-to-help-reimplement-all-of-std/117063
01:09:22 <Soni> (also yes we propose just making <W: World> implicit)
01:10:07 <korvo> Indeed, thinking of the computer as a robot, all of the ways that the CPU can signal the robot to act in the outside world are each their own capability. Discovering and wrapping these is known as *taming*.
01:10:16 <ais523> anyway, I think it is important that global state and permissions and capabilities are all managed by a system like this – it is pointless reimplementing all of std to just get working unloading and signal-safety, when capability-safety is probably more important in practice and also requires implementing all of std
01:10:58 <ais523> I have considered going further, making things like loops that can't be proven finite require a capability to do
01:11:05 <zzo38> I think that permissions and capabilities should be handled by the operating system, though
01:11:06 <Soni> if we have this we effectively have capabilities, even if we don't use them ourselves
01:11:10 <ais523> although you can't do that within most existing langauges
01:11:24 <Soni> ah yes solving the halting problem lol
01:11:37 <ais523> "can't be proven finite" doesn't require solving the halting problem
01:11:51 <ais523> or, well, I meant "haven't been proven finite", you don't have to prove that there's no proof
01:12:27 <Soni> we don't wanna go anywhere near halting problem stuff tbh
01:13:08 <korvo> zzo38: They are, kind of. In seL4, allocators and arenas are OS-managed handles, like file descriptors. It's something the OS has to be built around, though.
01:13:18 <ais523> the problem with what you're doing is that you have a project that a) will take a lot of work to complete and b) has a precisely limited scope that makes it useful only for a few applications and not for otheres
01:13:29 <int-e> Soni: have you tried woodcarving
01:13:31 <korvo> I hear Fuschia is cool, although I didn't take it seriously due to the Googliness.
01:13:42 <ais523> it would be a more useful project if the scope were larger, especially given how much work it would take, because it would then be useful to more peopel
01:13:58 <Soni> the useful thing about worlds is preventing mistakes, while everyone who says the word capabilities is thinking about control
01:14:01 <ais523> zzo38: I feel like permissions and capabilities kind-of need the programming language and OS to cooperate
01:14:30 <ais523> capabilities can also prevent mistakes (e.g. simultaneous overwrites of the same file)
01:14:53 <ais523> but they're also very useful when, e.g. using untrusted dependencies
01:14:57 <zzo38> I think that the OS has to be built around, yes. And, I had some idea of making such operating system, and all I/O uses a "capability" object.
01:15:00 <b_jonas> also that it'll push you to artificially limit some loops to 2**128 iterations long instead of potentially infinite, so that you have a proof that they're finite
01:15:01 <Soni> unsafe code can make their own worlds
01:15:04 <ais523> that could be untrusted in the sense of "I think this might do something malicious", and you use the capabilities to sandbox it
01:15:13 <korvo> Soni: The computer doesn't know what a mistake is. It can't make that sort of moral judgement computationally.
01:15:20 <ais523> but it could also be untrusted in the sense of "I think this might be buggy", and you use the capabilities to limit the damage if it is
01:15:24 <zzo38> I had seen some stuff about Fuschia. I do not agree with all of the design, but a few of my ideas are similar
01:15:25 <Soni> (and we make a point of supporting that)
01:15:58 <korvo> zzo38: Have you seen Capsicum? It's supported on one of the BSDs still, I think. All I/O happens through FDs and a single syscall.
01:16:01 <ais523> b_jonas: yes; I'm aware of the problem and suspect it's fixable but I don't yet know how
01:16:26 <zzo38> I had seen Capsicum too.
01:17:15 <Soni> we're here trying to fix the hexchat-plugin crate and nobody cares, everyone thinks we should just leave it unsound forever
01:17:19 <b_jonas> I mean sometimes that's a good thing, though for smaller numbers. sometimes I deliberately put a limit, much smaller than 2**128, that I think the loop shouldn't reach, to catch infinite loop bugs earlier
01:18:00 <ais523> anyway, my view of things is a) the type system in statically typed programming languages is a really good way to model capabilities/permissions and ensure that mistakes in using them are caught at compile-time; b) the OS generally doesn't have a way to confirm that programs perform only operations allowed by a language type system, so it needs to redo the checks itself in such a way that it could catch a program doing malicious things outside the bounds of
01:18:02 <ais523> the language it's allegedly written in
01:18:04 <zzo38> My idea involves that messages consists of bytes and/or capabilities, and a program receives an initial message when it starts; a program that discards all of its capabilities will terminate (a program that waits for any single capability from an empty set also terminates, and is the usual way to do so)
01:18:17 <int-e> b_jonas: there's work on tracking resource bounds in types but I'm not sure any of that is practical.
01:18:29 <ais523> int-e: I did a PhD on this stuff
01:18:44 <ais523> but mostly it was proving that the standard approach for doing it couldn't possibly work
01:19:06 <Soni> we wanna move on, this topic is too frustrating
01:19:10 <korvo> Soni: No worries. It's easy to get overwhelmed with personal infrastructure when also trying to build big libraries for everybody else. Take it slow; there's no rush.
01:19:57 <Soni> not exactly a programming language but still cursed: do you know the difference between editing text in bash, writing a text editor in bash, and turning bash into a text editor?
01:19:57 <zzo38> A program can also create its own capabilities (proxy capabilities), and programs cannot tell the difference of a proxy capability from any other one. Furthermore, such things as date/time and random numbers is also considered to be I/O, therefore programs can be made deterministic.
01:20:00 <int-e> most of what I've seen is struggling to establish bounds for small things... like sorting algorithms, up to relatively simple Okasaki style amortized cost things.
01:20:30 <ais523> zzo38: I agree that something like that would be beneficial – I don't know whether or not you have the details right, but the general approach is fine
01:21:05 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is a valid point, some of the details might be better to do differently; they are completely decided yet
01:21:28 <korvo> zzo38: Yes! And that's why actors end up getting reinvented; capabilities are essentially endpoints where messages are delivered, and also where messages are emitted, with some sort of partial order s.t. no observers disagree about ordering.
01:21:51 <ais523> actually, it strike me that in all the discussions about operating systems we've had over the years in #esolangs / (and previously #esoteric)
01:21:59 <zzo38> I have read about actor systems as well, and my idea is also similar than that too
01:22:02 <ais523> all the ideas I can remember are consistent with each other and look towards a similar approach for implementing it
01:22:16 <korvo> And yeah, you have to tame the system's ambient authority, including timers and entropy. Nix does this too, as do some other build systems.
01:22:46 <ais523> this is quite amazing, given what the channel is about, and especially given that OSes typically *don't* work like that
01:22:54 <Soni> sigh we're gonna get dragged back into this
01:23:02 <int-e> . o O ( shouldn't they be called re-actors )
01:23:04 <ais523> it's like everyone has independently decided "this approach is better"
01:23:07 <Soni> how do you use capabilities on a bare metal microcontroller in asm
01:23:28 <ais523> well, those don't have an OS
01:23:52 <ais523> but the answer is probably "they exist in the language you're compiing into the asm from, and the compiler ensures there are no incorrect uses of capabilities"
01:23:55 <korvo> I should go look for an seL4/Genode hardware compatibility list. I have a couple old Raspberry Pis...
01:24:03 <ais523> so that if the compiler is correct, you know the program doesn't have capability violations
01:24:23 <korvo> Soni: Machine code usually *isn't* capability-safe.
01:24:27 <ais523> what do you mean by "use capabilities" here
01:24:31 <Soni> machine code isn't asm
01:24:37 <zzo38> My idea would be that it would also define how the system call interface in the machine code is working in each computer type, so you can use them in assembly language as well, and it will be capability-safe too
01:24:53 <ais523> hmm, statically typed asm should in theory be possible, you could add ZSTs to that
01:25:11 <ais523> but, lots of it would compile down to nothing and you wouldn't be able to see it upon disassembling the machien code
01:25:25 <zzo38> However, the portable API would be defined mainly for C, and for the "Command, Automation, and Query Language" as well
01:25:43 <Soni> yes the entire point of typed asm is that it erases the types when assembling
01:26:01 <Soni> but it can still check constraints and other stuff
01:26:09 <Soni> invariants and whatnot
01:26:15 <korvo> There is a history of capability-safe machines. AIUI the oldest is the Burroughs B5000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_Large_Systems
01:26:30 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose you could make static typed assembly but some things you might want to do in assembly language you might not always want it
01:26:47 <ais523> x86-64 has different commands to operate on SSE registers as floats and as integers, which is notable because it has different commands even when you're performing an operation like a copy that works the same way on both data types
01:26:49 <Soni> not with that attitude
01:26:52 <korvo> These basically embed file-descriptor indirections ("capability tables" or "cap tables" in cap lore) into the CPU's way of looking at memory. The CPU can tell whether you're allowed to do what you're trying to do.
01:27:11 <ais523> and apparently, some processors have a slowdown if you use an integer operation on a register that was most recently read/written as a float, or vice versa
01:27:27 <Soni> why can't types be aware of such things as self-modifying code?
01:27:34 <korvo> Today, look for CHERI for examples of this. Also The Mill would have similar tables, but complicated.
01:27:46 <ais523> self-modifying code doesn't work very well on modern processors
01:27:56 <ais523> they like to read ahead a long way and run lots of pieces of code in parallel
01:28:02 <zzo38> I think there is a program in uxn for doing something similar than static typed assembly, although I do not use it (and even if you do use it, you can use square brackets to suppress warnings about such things)
01:28:09 <ais523> if code self-modifies, then either they ignore the modification or they have to discard a lot of work to incorporate the modification
01:28:13 <Soni> we're not talking about modern processors
01:28:45 <Soni> well you'd still want unsafe blocks probably, like in rust
01:29:17 <Soni> (unsafe blocks in an assembler...)
01:29:29 <zzo38> I would also have that the kernel doesn't have "typed capabilities", although the rest of the system implements such things as typed capabilities.
01:29:44 <ais523> b_jonas: on the subject of loop limits, it may be possible to use run time as a way to prevent variables overflowing
01:29:59 <shachaf> ais523: It's even odder than that -- Packed 32-bit integer and 64-bit integer xor are different instructions, I think.
01:30:04 <ais523> say you have 64-bit reference counts, and they are only ever increased and decreased by small integers
01:30:30 <ais523> now a reference count cannot overflow, you cannot run 2**64/(small integer) incref instructions to overflow it, the program does not run for that long
01:30:39 <ais523> so you can optimise out the overflow checks
01:31:00 <shachaf> `asm vpxord %ymm0, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:31:02 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 75 28 ef d0 vpxord %ymm0,%ymm1,%ymm2
01:31:05 <shachaf> `asm vpxorq %ymm0, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:31:07 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 f5 28 ef d0 vpxorq %ymm0,%ymm1,%ymm2
01:31:41 <shachaf> Is that just because the instruction encoding is regular, or is there a reason to stick with the same number of lanes across operations or something?
01:31:59 <ais523> shachaf: a quick check of the docs implies that this only happens with AVX512 encodings specifically
01:32:03 <ais523> which makes it probably a case of regular encoding
01:32:20 <ais523> `asm vpxor %ymm0, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:32:21 <HackEso> 0: c5 f5 ef d0 vpxor %ymm0,%ymm1,%ymm2
01:32:52 <ais523> oh, no, the operations are acutally different
01:33:00 <zzo38> I had not used modern x86-64 assembly language, although I had examined the assembly code output from compilers
01:33:01 <ais523> AVX512 supports masks to operate only on a subset of the inputs
01:33:11 <ais523> or, well, to only write a subset of the values to the output register
01:33:23 <shachaf> Ah, interesting, these packed 32-bit/64-bit xor instructions are AVX512.
01:33:30 <ais523> the D versus Q would affect the meaning of the mask, even though it doesn't affect the meaning of the XOR
01:33:53 <ais523> `asm vpxord {k1} %ymm0, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:33:54 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid char '{' beginning operand 1 `{k1} %ymm0' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `} %ymm0' after expression
01:34:04 <ais523> `asm vpxord %ymm0, {k1} %ymm1, %ymm2
01:34:05 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid char '{' beginning operand 2 `{k1} %ymm1' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `} %ymm1' after expression
01:34:09 <ais523> `asm vpxord %ymm0 {k1}, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:34:10 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 75 29 ef c2 vpxord ymm0{k1},ymm1,ymm2
01:34:26 <ais523> so the meaning of k1 is affected by the d
01:34:47 <shachaf> It's still kind of funny that the unmasked instructions are different.
01:35:18 <shachaf> I haven't looked at the AVX512 encodings very closely. Maybe the unmasked instructions are just a special case of the masked instructions or something, so this happens naturally.
01:35:25 <ais523> right, but given how there are 15 times as many masked as unmasked variants, it doesn't really make sense to remove one of the unmasked versions, it'd hardly save any encoding space
01:36:15 <shachaf> Why 15 times? Is it 15 mask registers or something, and unmasked is just encoded as another mask register?
01:36:41 <ais523> oh, no, I misremembered, it is 8
01:36:48 <ais523> I thought there were 16, one of which indicated unmasked
01:37:18 <ais523> <Intel> Note that from this set of 8 architectural registers, only k1 through k7 can be addressed as predicate oper- ands. k0 can be used as a regular source or destination but cannot be encoded as a predicate operand.
01:38:09 <ais523> so there are 8, in theory, but only 7 of them can be encoded into an instruction whose purpose is anything other than manipulating mask registers
01:38:52 <shachaf> If you actually want fast unmasked xor on AVX512, you'd use vpternlog.
01:40:03 <shachaf> Well, if you're xoring more than two things, which is presumably pretty common.
01:40:14 <ais523> `asm vpxord %ymm0 {k1}, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:40:15 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 75 29 ef c2 vpxord ymm0{k1},ymm1,ymm2
01:40:18 <ais523> `asm vpxord %ymm0 {k0}, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:40:19 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: unknown vector operation: `{k0}' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: `%k0' can't be used for write mask
01:40:35 <ais523> `asm vpxord %ymm0 {k1}{z}, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:40:36 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 75 a9 ef c2 vpxord ymm0{k1}{z},ymm1,ymm2
01:40:57 <ais523> I still haven't found the part of the documentation which says that 000 encodes no mask
01:41:26 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x62,0xf1,0x75,0x28,0xef,0xd2
01:41:27 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 75 28 ef d2 vpxord %ymm2,%ymm1,%ymm2
01:41:45 <shachaf> `asm vpternlogd $0x96, %ymm0, %ymm1, %ymm2
01:41:47 <HackEso> 0: 62 f3 75 28 25 d0 96 vpternlogd $0x96,%ymm0,%ymm1,%ymm2
01:41:53 <ais523> `asm vpxord %ymm0, %ymm1, %ymm2{k0}
01:41:54 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: unknown vector operation: `{k0}' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: `%k0' can't be used for write mask
01:41:57 <ais523> `asm vpxord %ymm0, %ymm1, %ymm2{k1}
01:41:58 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: unknown vector operation: `{k1}' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: mask not on destination operand for `vpxord'
01:42:19 <ais523> I hate how long these instructions are
01:42:50 <shachaf> I've only written a small amount of AVX512 code. I didn't use the masking at all there.
01:42:56 <int-e> `asm .byte 0x62,0xf1,0x75,0xa8,0xef,0xd2
01:42:57 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 75 a8 ef d2 vpxord %ymm2,%ymm1,%ymm2{z}
01:44:01 <shachaf> `asm vgf2p8affineqb $0, %zmm0, %zmm1, %zmm2 # the other great instruction in AVX512
01:44:03 <HackEso> 0: 62 f3 f5 48 ce d0 00 vgf2p8affineqb $0x0,%zmm0,%zmm1,%zmm2
01:44:09 <shachaf> termlog and gf2p8affineqb are where it's at.
01:44:34 <ais523> I use Intel syntax when writing SSEish/AVXish code, because with AT&T syntax I find it too hard to figure out which order the arguments are supposed to be in
01:44:55 <shachaf> I'm used to AT&T syntax but I think I should just switch to Intel syntax everywhere for this reason.
01:45:12 <ais523> I do like the % signs on registers to stop them clashing with variables, though
01:45:24 <ais523> if someone adds a new register that has the same name as a variable you're using…
01:45:27 <shachaf> Or maybe I should switch to ARM or RISC-V syntaxes.
01:45:47 <ais523> but people get angry with me when I use Intel argument order with % on registers, even though gas supports it
01:46:12 <int-e> `asm vpxord %ymm2,%ymm1,%ymm2{z}
01:46:13 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: zeroing-masking only allowed with write mask \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: zeroing-masking only allowed with write mask
01:47:17 <ais523> PCLMULQDQ is a fun instruction, that I may even have used as VPCLMULQDQ
01:47:24 <ais523> I am not quite sure why it has an SSE encoding, I think it's newer than SSE is
01:47:43 <int-e> (But what happens if you execute that 0x62,0xf1,0x75,0xa8,0xef,0xd2 on real hardware? Will it fault or execute as an unmasked vpxord?
01:48:03 <ais523> `asm vpclmullqlqdq %xmm1, %xmm2
01:48:05 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: number of operands mismatch for `vpclmullqlqdq' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: number of operands mismatch for `vpclmullqlqdq'
01:48:16 <ais523> `asm vpclmullqlqdq %xmm1, %xmm2, %xmm3
01:48:18 <HackEso> 0: c4 e3 69 44 d9 00 vpclmullqlqdq %xmm1,%xmm2,%xmm3
01:49:19 <ais523> `asm vpclmullqlqdq %zmm1, %zmm2, %zmm3
01:49:20 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `vpclmullqlqdq' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `vpclmullqlqdq'
01:49:32 <ais523> `asm vpclmullqlqdq %ymm1, %ymm2, %ymm3
01:49:34 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `vpclmullqlqdq' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `vpclmullqlqdq'
01:50:08 <int-e> how does that mnemonic work... low quad, low quad, double quad.
01:50:09 <ais523> huh, that should be encodeable with ymm registers
01:50:37 <int-e> sorry, I have this habit of starting a question... and then looking up the answer and reporting it along with it :P
01:50:41 <ais523> it is an abbreviation/shortcut mnemonic which is somehow harder to remember and longer than the instruction it abbreviates
01:50:56 <ais523> `asm vpclmulqdq %xmm1, %xmm2, %xmm3, 0x00
01:50:58 <HackEso> 0: c4 e3 69 44 cb 00 vpclmullqlqdq xmm1,xmm2,xmm3
01:51:39 <int-e> `asm vpclmulqdq %xmm1, %xmm2, %xmm3, 0x11
01:51:41 <HackEso> 0: c4 e3 69 44 cb 11 vpclmulhqhqdq xmm1,xmm2,xmm3
01:52:15 <ais523> `asm vpclmulqdq %xmm1, %xmm2, %xmm3, 0x23
01:52:17 <HackEso> 0: c4 e3 69 44 cb 23 vpclmulqdq xmm1,xmm2,xmm3,0x23
01:52:40 <ais523> the disassembler is scared to abbreviate when you set some of the ignored bits in the immediate :-)
01:53:33 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: too many memory references for `pext' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `pext'
01:53:41 <int-e> *reading* yeah apparently that's legal
01:53:43 <ais523> `asm pext eax, ebx, ecx
01:53:45 <HackEso> 0: c4 e2 62 f5 c1 pext eax,ebx,ecx
01:54:19 <shachaf> Hmm, I might need to do a spot of the carryless multiplication soon to speed up a CRC thing.
01:54:23 <ais523> (that's the INTERCAL select instruction)
01:54:42 <ais523> fun to see a three-operand instruction that operates on the general-purpose integer registers
01:54:50 <ais523> `asm pext eax, ebx, esp
01:54:51 <HackEso> 0: c4 e2 62 f5 c4 pext eax,ebx,esp
01:55:14 <ais523> `asm pext eax, ebx, eip
01:55:15 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: too many memory references for `pext' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `pext'
01:55:28 <ais523> I didn't think you'd be able to do that one, but it was worth trying
01:55:46 <shachaf> Interesting, it uses a VEX prefix and puts the third operand there, I guess.
01:57:24 <ais523> C-INTERCAL compiles ~ into PEXT in some circumstances which I can't remember, it was too good an opportunity
01:57:25 <shachaf> You can't use eip anywhere except as a memory offset, right?
01:57:33 <HackEso> 0: c4 e2 e2 f5 05 00 00 00 00 pext rax,rbx,QWORD PTR [rip+0x0] # 0x9
01:57:37 <int-e> hehe that reminds me of "pop cs" that apparently worked on 8089 and 8086.
01:58:02 <ais523> a return statement is actually just a pop of the IP
01:58:03 <int-e> before it was stolen as a prefix for encoding more instructions (0x0F)
01:58:06 <ais523> but it is given a different name
01:58:28 <ais523> but yes, usually you can't use RIP except for IP-relative addressing
01:58:36 <ais523> `asm pext rax, rbx, [0x0]
01:58:39 <HackEso> 0: c4 e2 e2 f5 04 25 00 00 00 00 pext rax,rbx,QWORD PTR ds:0x0
01:59:05 <int-e> `asm lea rax, [rip]
01:59:06 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 05 00 00 00 00 lea rax,[rip+0x0] # 0x7
01:59:23 <shachaf> I was going to say lea is another three-operand instruction, but that's not true for rip, I guess.
01:59:38 <ais523> absolute-memory-address addressing (with no register) had two equivalent encodings in x86-32, one of them (the shorter one) was repurposed to mean rip-relative
01:59:55 <ais523> `asm lea rax, [rbx + rcx + 0x4]
01:59:56 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 44 0b 04 lea rax,[rbx+rcx*1+0x4]
02:00:04 <ais523> `asm lea rax, [rip + rcx + 0x4]
02:00:06 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid char '[' beginning operand 2 `[rip+rcx+0x4]' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: `[rip+rcx+0x4]' is not a valid base/index expression
02:00:40 <ais523> but you can't put RIP into anything other than "[RIP + constant]" because of that
02:01:42 <ais523> the longer encoding was a consequence of encoding consistency:
02:01:56 <ais523> `asm lea rax, [rbx + 0x4]
02:01:58 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 43 04 lea rax,[rbx+0x4]
02:02:10 <ais523> `asm lea rax, [rbp + 0x4]
02:02:12 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 45 04 lea rax,[rbp+0x4]
02:02:16 <ais523> `asm lea rax, [rsp + 0x4]
02:02:17 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 44 24 04 lea rax,[rsp+0x4]
02:02:25 <shachaf> I wrote an encoder for all this ModRM/SIB business once.
02:02:28 <ais523> `asm lea rax, [rbx*2 + 0x4]
02:02:30 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 04 5d 04 00 00 00 lea rax,[rbx*2+0x4]
02:02:50 <shachaf> But I've mostly forgotten it already.
02:04:48 <shachaf> We should have `asm for ARM.
02:04:58 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" > /tmp/asm.s; for o in ',' '-msyntax=intel -mnaked-reg,-M intel'; do if as ${o%,*} /tmp/asm.s -o /tmp/asm.o 2>>/tmp/asm.err; then objdump ${o#*,} -d --insn-width=20 /tmp/asm.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d" | perl -pe 'if (/^\s*(\w+:)\s*((?:\w\w )+)\s*(\S.*)$/) { ($a,$b,$c) = ($1,$2,$3); $_ = "$a $b ".($c =~ s/\s+/ /rg)."\n"; }'; exit; fi; done; cat /tmp/asm.err
02:06:52 <int-e> shachaf: but that's less confusing :P
02:07:09 <int-e> TBH `arm was my first thought
02:07:18 <int-e> I'd rather avoid ars*
02:08:58 <int-e> (there could also be a `amd64 alias for `asm to make `arm feel more systematic)
02:09:03 <shachaf> Can GNU as cross-assemble by default?
02:09:40 <int-e> I don't know. I guess not.
02:10:23 <shachaf> I think llvm-as can? But it doesn't seem to be installed.
02:12:33 <shachaf> I was recently thinking about how LDAPR works, and I was confused at first, but now I think it makes sense and is kind of elegant.
02:13:42 <shachaf> (Or rather about how LDAR works, I guess.)
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02:17:36 <int-e> `` echo $(as --help | awk '/=CPU/ { x++ } (x == 1) { print }' | sed 's= *= =g') # full output at https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.28966
02:17:38 <HackEso> -march=CPU[,+EXTENSION...] generate code for CPU and EXTENSION, CPU is one of: generic32, generic64, i386, i486, i586, i686, pentium, pentiumpro, pentiumii, pentiumiii, pentium4, prescott, nocona, core, core2, corei7, l1om, k1om, iamcu, k6, k6_2, athlon, opteron, k8, amdfam10, bdver1, bdver2, bdver3, bdver4, znver1, znver2, btver1, btver2 EXTENSION is combination of: 8087, 287, 387, 687, mmx, sse, sse2, sse3, ssse3, sse4.1, sse4.2, sse4, avx, avx2, avx5
02:18:27 <int-e> so just x86 things
02:19:17 <int-e> and I guess the `sed` isn't needed
02:21:55 <shachaf> Interesting, GNU as has a -mfence-as-lock-add option.
02:22:10 <shachaf> "encode lfence, mfence and sfence as lock addl $0x0, (%{re}sp)"
02:22:26 <shachaf> I ask because mfence is significantly slower than a locked instruction like that.
02:25:06 <shachaf> `fetch /hackenv/tmp/fence.c https://shachaf.net/tmp/fence.c
02:25:09 <HackEso> 2024-11-04 02:25:08 URL:https://shachaf.net/tmp/fence.c [1589/1589] -> "/hackenv/tmp/fence.c" [1]
02:26:09 <shachaf> Ah, can't do perf in HackEso.
02:28:29 <shachaf> Also, generating lock addl $0, (%rsp) generates a false dependency on (%rsp)
02:28:53 <shachaf> I recently read a post suggesting doing it on an address in the red zone below (%rsp) instead, to avoid that.
02:29:14 <shachaf> ais523: Do you know the specific differences?
02:29:37 <shachaf> I like this Intel pseudocode for mfence: "Wait_On_Following_Loads_And_Stores_Until(preceding_loads_and_stores_globally_visible);"
03:05:02 <b_jonas> "64-bit reference counts, only ever increased and decreased by small integers, cannot overflow" => yes, I am aware of that trick
03:05:59 <b_jonas> it can be useful for things other than reference counts too
03:22:13 <b_jonas> "I still haven't found the part of the documentation which says that 000 encodes no mask" => try to find the part in the Intel 64 and IA-32 Architecture Software Developer's Manual that defines how the REX prefix modifies the registers encoded by ModR/M bytes as described in vol 2 ch 2.1.5 and B.1.4.
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03:27:31 <ais523> shachaf: at a guess, write-combining memory probably works differently
03:27:47 <ais523> I don't know the actual answer though
03:33:07 <b_jonas> this is why we have both the Intel and AMD manual, gnu binutils, yasm, Agner's objdump, and qemu. if some information about instruction encoding is unclear or missing in one manual, you can look them up in the other five.
03:34:23 <b_jonas> that's six independent sources of information, each of which should completely specify the instruction encodings
03:34:51 <b_jonas> (binutils has both an assembler and a disassembler, but I don't think the two count as independent)
03:36:12 <b_jonas> plus of course there are real CPUs to test with
03:36:59 <baldibacak> there was so much garbage file in my home dir so i rm -rf homedir now i erased every single config
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05:50:43 <zzo38> Is it possible in Linux to disable address space randomization for a specific program (without affecting other programs)?
06:01:57 <ais523> zzo38: yes, call personality(ADDR_NO_RANDOMIZE) from the process that spawns it, between the fork and exec
06:04:43 <ais523> I am not sure if that affects randomization done by the dynamic linker too, or just by the kernel
06:05:13 <zzo38> OK. The man page for "personality" on my computer does not mention what argument is expected by that function
06:06:03 <zzo38> Is it usable together with other stuff in order to be able to save/restore the program's memory (if it is not necessary to save/restore file descriptors, signals, etc, and the program does not use multiple threads)?
06:07:18 <ais523> zzo38: yes, but there's a better way to do it; see PR_SET_MM in prctl(2)
06:07:58 <ais523> there's actually quite a lot of kernel support for checkpointing and restoring a program's memory
06:08:21 <ais523> and existing programs to do it for you, so you don't need to rewrite it from scratch; I think CRIU is one of the better-known ones
06:09:42 <ais523> turning off ASLR is still useful if you need the program to run reproducibly
06:12:48 <zzo38> I do not seem to have PR_SET_MM on my computer
06:12:55 <zzo38> (maybe I need a newer version of Linux)
06:14:43 <zzo38> (Also, the program that should be saved/restored would be one that is meant to be able to do this, so it not just any arbitrary program. If this requires special linker options it is OK too)
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06:31:20 <esolangs> [[JS-CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144889&oldid=144875 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Some things i found */
07:07:31 <shachaf> You can also do it in the ELF file, can't you?
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08:33:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144890&oldid=143607 * ZCX islptng * (+435)
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09:43:53 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144891&oldid=139113 * JJRubes * (+690) interpretation explanation rewrite
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11:55:18 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144892&oldid=144869 * Ractangle * (-44) /* Syntax */
11:55:54 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144893&oldid=144892 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Hello, world! */
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12:35:41 <Soni> ais523: compile-time virtual memory
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13:02:43 <Soni> oh wait, not around
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13:05:53 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144894&oldid=143587 * Froginstarch * (+19) /* Hello, world! */
13:07:24 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/public stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144895&oldid=131013 * Gggfr * (+469) /* commands */
13:08:06 <Guest60> give me spmething to turn into an esolang
13:08:59 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/public stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144896&oldid=144895 * Gggfr * (+71) /* commands */
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13:17:04 <baldibacak> btw how do we setup password on liberal chat
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13:18:04 -!- Guest60 has joined.
13:22:25 <Guest60> cuz i have smth for you to read!
13:24:59 <Guest60> baldibacsk this is for you
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13:28:03 <wib_jonas> ais523: apparently the Turing-complete computation in M:tG is making rounds on the internet, though here it appears with a very deceptive wording, both because it's missing the parenthesis in "deck can be used to (deal damage iff mathematical conjecture is true)": https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/links-for-november-2024 (search for "Isochron
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13:33:00 <wWwwW> ais523: ik its a loong time but somebody made an interpreter for RECT4n=GLE and explained it better is if you where interestd then you can see it now
13:43:02 <wWwwW> i was going to if you said yyes show you this:
13:43:23 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bring_to_another
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13:58:14 <wWwwW> have you red/are readingf th hackMD doc?
13:59:10 <baldibacak> i am gonna make an end to end encrypted chat app
14:03:43 <baldibacak> just for fun i am gonna make an chatapp includesend to end encrypted meaning i cant read messages
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14:34:58 <esolangs> [[Extended Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144897&oldid=139240 * None1 * (+38)
14:44:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck extended]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144898&oldid=140254 * None1 * (+124)
14:45:32 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck extended]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144899&oldid=144898 * None1 * (+45)
14:45:52 <esolangs> [[Extended Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144900&oldid=144897 * None1 * (-1)
14:47:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck extended]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144901&oldid=144899 * None1 * (+131)
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14:58:00 <wib_jonas> huh ... apparently that uses a card https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/241/zimone-all-questioning that refers to prime numbers explicitly in its rules text. that's cheating!
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16:32:54 <esolangs> [[Son of a BitCh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144902 * ZCX islptng * (+613) Created page with "Son of a [[BitChanger|BitCh]] is an esolang with 2 instructions, created by islptng. As the title says, it is heavily inspired and based on BitChanger. The program itself, has not only a tape, but a state storage, which the value is always one of <code>diojn<
16:44:21 <esolangs> [[Son of a BitCh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144903&oldid=144902 * ZCX islptng * (+140) Examples
16:46:58 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144904&oldid=144853 * ZCX islptng * (+21) Added my AHF to this page because it has the same idea as mine.
17:02:29 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/public stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144905&oldid=144896 * Ractangle * (+25) /* program */
17:02:39 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/public stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144906&oldid=144905 * Ractangle * (-9) /* program */
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17:59:51 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144907&oldid=144888 * Ractangle * (-181) /* MarkupL syntax */
18:06:38 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144908&oldid=143158 * Ractangle * (-14) /* Syntax */
18:06:47 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144909&oldid=144908 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Cat program */
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18:38:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * QOALO * New user account
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18:44:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AES256-Always secure Encrypeter * New user account
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19:12:30 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144910&oldid=144893 * Ractangle * (-436)
19:12:46 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144911&oldid=144910 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Syntax */
19:12:50 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144912&oldid=144911 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
19:13:40 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144913&oldid=144912 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Implementation */
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19:38:40 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/public stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144914&oldid=144906 * EvyLah * (-2) /* current stack */ ya gotta change the stack when you change the program
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20:21:26 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144915&oldid=144913 * Ractangle * (+37) /* Syntax */
20:50:51 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144916&oldid=144915 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Examples */
21:19:38 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144917&oldid=144916 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Quine */
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21:21:32 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144918&oldid=139630 * Ractangle * (+44) /* $_$ */
21:22:50 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144919&oldid=144918 * Ractangle * (+64) /* /// */
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23:26:53 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144920&oldid=143523 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+45) /* Java Interpreter */
23:27:33 <esolangs> [[Txet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144921&oldid=140918 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) /* Cat program */
23:30:50 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144922&oldid=144512 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+48) /* Tile */
23:41:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144923&oldid=132832 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+12012) /* txeT */
23:42:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144924&oldid=144923 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-71) /* 99 bottles of beer on the wall */
23:42:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144925&oldid=144924 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+69) /* txeT */
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23:48:00 <esolangs> [[9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144926&oldid=144719 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-5) /* Operators */
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00:40:20 <Lymia> ais523: btw, something I did think of on a BF Joust rework
00:40:48 <Lymia> It may be worth it to have certain numbers be "cheaper" to represent in some way than others. e.g. (+)*16 being "shroter" than (+)*15 or (+)*17
00:41:10 <Lymia> Would help reduce the amount of finetuning, I think, to have a few specific breakpoints for "large/small/etc" on decoy/offset/etc sizes.
00:44:15 <ais523> Lymia: hm, interesting
00:44:41 <Lymia> Decoys especially, combined with offset clears existing.
00:44:54 <Lymia> +1 on an offset or decoy size can make or break a hill.
00:45:01 <ais523> I was planning to just use decimal but I am not convinced I disagree – OTOH it might be hard to do in an intuitive way
00:46:01 <Lymia> The existence of pairs of bots where....
00:46:13 <Lymia> +1/-1 on offset or decoy sizes can just flip that one matchup and lose very little elsewhere is an ow.
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02:06:23 <esolangs> [[Son of a BitCh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144927&oldid=144903 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+222) Categories
02:10:20 <esolangs> [[BitChanger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144928&oldid=101522 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* See also */ Derivatives
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05:57:36 <zzo38> I had also made up a Magic: the Gathering card before that mentioned prime numbers, before the other one mentioned that was made officially. I wrote "Players and permanents with a prime number of counters have shroud."
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07:38:34 <esolangs> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144929&oldid=135543 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Quine */
07:41:11 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah/public stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144930&oldid=144914 * Gggfr * (+28)
07:43:08 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144931&oldid=144919 * Ractangle * (+76) /* 05AB1E */
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07:56:44 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144932&oldid=144931 * ZCX islptng * (-13) Moved !Chinese because it is built-in
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08:50:13 <b_jonas> “certain numbers be ‘cheaper’ to represent (+)*16 being ‘shroter’ than (+)*15 or (+)*17” => oh no! it's not US election day, it's still Halloween, and the deadfish are executing their iiss attack!
09:19:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Inspect.getmembers(object)]] to [["Python"]]
09:19:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:Inspect.getmembers(object)]] to [[Talk:"Python"]]
09:19:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [["Python"]] to [["python"]]
09:19:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:"Python"]] to [[Talk:"python"]]
09:21:07 <esolangs> [["python"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144941&oldid=144937 * Ractangle * (-8)
09:29:27 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144942&oldid=144858 * Ractangle * (+14) /* Stuff to continue */
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10:47:47 <esolangs> [["python"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144943&oldid=144941 * Ractangle * (-14)
10:48:52 <esolangs> [["python"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144944&oldid=144943 * Ractangle * (+32)
10:51:02 <esolangs> [["python"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144945&oldid=144944 * Ractangle * (+31)
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11:47:52 <esolangs> [[User:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144946&oldid=144723 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+1093)
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13:28:15 <esolangs> [[!@$%^&*()+=]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144947 * Xyzzy * (+59) Created page with "{{Stub}}{{WIP}} This is a language based on [[!@$%^&*()+]]."
13:34:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:!@$%^&*()+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144948&oldid=140824 * Yayimhere * (+157) /* the hell */
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13:49:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Look!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144949 * None1 * (+447) Created page with "==Look! online interpreter== Since I've deleted the REPL hosting the Look! online interpreter, I plan to create another using Vercel. It will probably be done in a month, but it won't be reachable in inland China. --~~~~"
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16:01:13 <HackEso> The password of the month is release incident pilot.
16:01:39 <int-e> > map sort ["release incident pilot","presidential election"]
16:01:40 <lambdabot> [" acdeeeeiiillnnoprstt"," acdeeeeiiillnnoprstt"]
16:03:31 <int-e> (https://wordsmith.org/anagram/ is still pretty cool)
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16:58:31 <wib_jonas> int-e: you know the command you gave doesn't actually compare them, and they're very hard to compare by eye, right?
16:58:50 <int-e> wib_jonas: well, they're not equal
17:00:16 <int-e> anyway, yes, I know
17:03:17 <int-e> wib_jonas: but also https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ooh1Aif8eija.png :P
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18:28:53 <esolangs> [[!@$%^&*()+=]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144950&oldid=144947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categories
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20:45:11 <ais523> b_jonas: huh, using Deadfish notation to represent numbers would indeed be a reasonable way to make some numbers cheaper than others
20:46:52 <shachaf> int-e: Are people electing a new president of #esolangs?
20:47:27 <ais523> i ii iii iis iisi iisii iisiii iiisd iiis iiisi iiisii iiisiii iissddd iissdd iissd iiss
20:48:04 <ais523> (have we reminded all the Americans here (who are eligible to vote and haven't yet done so in this election) to go and vote yet?)
20:49:33 <ais523> alternatively, binary floating-point could work: 1p0 1p1 1.1p1 1p2 1.01p2 1.1p2 1.11p2 1p3 etc.
20:50:26 <shachaf> ais523: Any recommendations on what to vote for?
20:51:01 <shachaf> (I already dropped off my ballot yesterday.)
20:52:28 <ais523> shachaf: at least in the UK, Trump is incredibly unpopular, so I imagine most Brits would vote against him by voting for Harris
20:53:01 <ais523> we had a Trump supporter as Prime Minister recently, she got thrown out by her own party after only a few weeks
20:54:03 <ais523> but Trump was also very unpopular even before then
20:54:58 <shachaf> Well, my presidential vote is completely meaningless in California.
20:55:22 <ais523> indeed – it would be a huge upset if Harris fell below 50% there, and every vote above 50% doesn't matter
20:55:39 <ais523> some of the House seats in California might potentially matter
20:56:00 <ais523> but I don't have the list of individual seats in California memorised
20:57:25 <ais523> (looking it up on the Internet says that CA-45 and CA-22 are the two closest House districts in the country)
20:57:31 <esolangs> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144951&oldid=142355 * Digital Hunter * (+6) /* Example programs */ updated link
20:58:41 <shachaf> My district, CA-12, is presumably on the other end of whatever list that is.
20:59:10 <shachaf> "With a Cook Partisan Voter Index rating of D+40, the 12th district is the most Democratic district in both California and the United States, giving nearly 90% of its vote to Democrats in both the 2016 and 2020 presidential elections.[1][2]"
20:59:17 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem is that it also lets jousters very quickly zero a flag that starts at 128
21:00:23 <ais523> shachaf: yes, a) CA-12 isn't remotely close, and b) both candidates say that they'll support the Democrats if they win, so it would require one of them to be lying about that to affect who controls the House post-election
21:00:35 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't see that as a problem, turtles being fast is good for the game
21:00:57 <ais523> if they weren't fast there'd be no point in using the strategy, it has a lot of disadvantages
21:02:57 <shachaf> ais523: One of the candidates is going for a direct democracy thing:
21:03:02 <shachaf> «"We are putting the power back into the people by allowing the voters of the East Bay to vote on every bill that crosses my desk in congress. Meaning that as long as 51% of the district votes for a bill that passes my desk, I will support that even if I don't personally agreed with the particular decision," said Dr. Tran.»
21:03:56 <shachaf> Of course de facto that's still the same situation.
21:04:02 <ais523> yes, just with extra steps
21:04:16 <shachaf> Also she's presumably not going to win.
21:05:07 <shachaf> Maybe I should run for congress.
21:06:47 <ais523> unfortunately I wouldn't be able to vote for you, due to being British
21:07:52 <shachaf> Hmm, I could move to Britland and stand for Parliament.
21:15:30 <b_jonas> ais523: you said earlier that you don't want to decrease the cell modulus, currently 256, by much, because it would be too quick to clear flags. with a deadfish square operation, you can achieve a clear in 9 turns if undisturbed. isn't that too fast?
21:17:00 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, these operations don't affect the cells on the tape
21:17:04 <ais523> they're just to control the internal counter
21:17:17 <b_jonas> ok, and how can you use the internal counter?
21:18:10 <ais523> it's the only way to do, e.g., "subtract 1 from this cell 128 times" without taking up a huge amount of code space
21:18:44 <ais523> by using the counter to count the iterations of a 128-iteration loop
21:18:49 <b_jonas> in that case I hope you get more than one counter
21:19:17 <b_jonas> like either three counters, or two counters and a way to quickly compare distance from your own flag to a constant
21:19:56 <ais523> it's one counter + compare distance to marker + compare distance to own flag; the marker is a pointer to a tape cell that you can move to you current cell in zero time
21:20:51 <ais523> this has enough power to implement most of the interesting programs on the champions page, but low enough power that programs still behave somewhat predictably
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21:21:25 <b_jonas> do you get at least an extra boolean or two that you can clear, set, and test?
21:21:50 <ais523> no but you have an instruction pointer – boolean flags is an interesting idea though
21:22:17 <ais523> I figured that repeating programs a couple of times in code space would be OK for programs that needed to do that
21:22:26 <ais523> adding booleans would allow the code space to be made smaller, though
21:23:50 <b_jonas> booleans or counters with a small limit, for things that you want to repeat a few times
21:24:29 <b_jonas> like trying to make sure you see a cell cleared multiple times before you move past it
21:25:41 <ais523> oh, antishudder loops nearly always need a different clear algorithm anyway
21:26:35 <ais523> the shudders are designed to beat normal clear algorithms, so if you zero a cell and see it nonzero on the next cycle, usually you switch to a less normal algorithm for zeroing it the second time
21:26:53 <b_jonas> or perhaps a single-level subroutine call that saves your position but not the orientation (velocity) so you can use the orientation for four different returns
21:28:54 <b_jonas> assuming this still uses a funge/piet code space
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22:27:59 <int-e> shachaf: I went with an anagram for a reason :P
22:29:38 <ais523> I think you have the word order wrong, "pilot release incident" actually makes sense as a noun phrase
22:29:57 <ais523> (and of course, the word order doesn't matter for an anagram)
22:30:37 <int-e> I wanted a software context, not an avian one.
22:30:54 <int-e> you are right that that makes more sense
22:31:41 <int-e> I'm sure there are better anagrams anyway. But by The Rules this is the one we're stuck with for now :P
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22:45:13 <esolangs> [[!@$%^&*()+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144952&oldid=131752 * Aadenboy * (+61) distinguish
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00:25:45 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144953&oldid=144131 * ZCX islptng * (+73)
00:25:55 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144954&oldid=144953 * ZCX islptng * (-1)
00:52:01 <zzo38> Is it by the rules, or is it by The Rules instead?
00:53:04 <HackEso> drwxr-xr-x 10 1000 1000 4096 Nov 4 02:25 .
00:53:09 <ais523> that has execute permission!
00:53:55 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Redirect]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144955 * ZCX islptng * (+30) Redirected page to [[User:ZCX islptng]]
01:18:17 <esolangs> [[JSFlak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144956 * ZCX islptng * (+1012) Created page with "Note: This is a work in progress. (idea by [[User:ZCX islptng]])<br> This esolang's purpose is to confuse JS programmers. File extention is <code>. js</code> note that space! The esolang, inspired by [[Brain-Flak]], uses 6 commands, same as [[JSFuck]]. However, th
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02:21:46 <fizzie> Hmm, I think that's due to the manual path expansion from the umlbox init process, maybe.
02:21:53 <fizzie> Since there's no / in the command, it tries to exec it in turn with each directory of the path prefixed, and while it generally reports the last errno value, there's also a special piece of logic that makes EACCES sticky, for a reason I can't immediately recall.
02:22:36 <fizzie> And it's possible there's something in the path that's not accessible.
02:23:11 <ais523> running "." manually in Bash gives me ".: filename argument required"; running "./." gives me "Is a directory"; both seem like reasonable responses
02:23:26 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_INSTANCE=HackEso-libera \ IRC_NETWORK=Libera.Chat \ IRC_NICK=fizzie \ IRC_IDENT=irc \ IRC_HOST=selene.zem.fi \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
02:23:48 <fizzie> Well, it's not running in a shell with just a `.
02:24:07 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/.? Permission denied
02:24:25 <ais523> `` ls -d /hackenv/bin/.
02:24:31 <ais523> `` ls -ld /hackenv/bin/.
02:24:33 <HackEso> drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 16384 Aug 4 18:18 /hackenv/bin/.
02:24:46 <ais523> just verifying the +x permission, even though it's obviously there
02:28:05 <fizzie> `/bin/bash /hackenv/bin/.
02:28:06 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/.: /hackenv/bin/.: Is a directory
02:28:25 <fizzie> Well, I don't know exactly what's up with that.
02:28:29 <shachaf> `` echo $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\n#include <errno.h>\nextern char **environ; int main(int argc, char **argv) { execve("/", argv, environ); perror("execve"); }' | gcc -x c /dev/stdin -o /tmp/test && /tmp/test
02:29:13 <b_jonas> ais523: just . runs the builtin command . which tries to run a script in a way that it affects the state of the shell where you execute it
02:29:40 <b_jonas> that doesn't have much to do with the directory named . , it's just a silly synonym for shell
02:29:42 <shachaf> According to man execve, it can fail with EISDIR, but only if "An ELF interpreter was a directory"
02:29:50 <fizzie> I guess maybe that's just what execve returns, then, even if it's a little odd for a directory.
02:29:53 <ais523> assuming the filesystem is in a remotely reasonable state, . must always be a directory so it can safely be reused for a shell builtin
02:29:54 <b_jonas> (though not as silly as what windows cmd inherited from DOS command)
02:30:07 <ais523> I am not sure how Linux reacts to filesystems where . or .. symlinks point to weird places
02:30:27 <ais523> shachaf: ooh, that's a fun failure mode
02:31:45 <b_jonas> ais523: can filesystems do that? I thought that's done in the cache layer independent of the individual file systems, not the fs-dependent drivers, because .. needs to point outside of the mount point on a directory on which an fs is mounted, plus it's generic anyway. at most the file system driver makes sure that there's a .. entry written in the directory for compatibility with old file systems
02:33:51 <ais523> b_jonas: they shouldn't be able to do that, at least – I don't know whether or not they can anyway
02:34:13 <ais523> or, hmm, . and .. are hardlinks, aren't they? not symlinks
02:34:16 <b_jonas> bash has its own wrappers, I think execve itself just fails with EACCESS
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02:34:30 <ais523> this is why the link count of a directory goes up as it's given more subdirectories, they all have their .. hardlinked to it
02:35:25 <b_jonas> I'm guessing fuse isn't allowed, the in kernel drivers obviously don't have access control
02:36:14 <b_jonas> and that's just the historical reason for the link count, now it goes up on some file systems because they pretend to be like old file systems
02:36:46 <ais523> yes – I suspected that nowadays it's just done to match the historical behaviour
02:37:16 <ais523> I have a strong suspicion that the whole "start a filename with . to hide it" came about because some really old version of ls just checked the first character to see if a file was . or ..
02:37:26 <ais523> and then it was kept because it was useful
02:40:24 <b_jonas> IIUC the oldest version of the open syscall didn't even take a pathname made of an arbitrary number of path components, it took two arguments with one path component each instead (plus other arguments that aren't strings)
02:41:10 <ais523> so you would need chdir to open files in nested directories?
02:41:26 <b_jonas> more likely you'd have hardlinks to every useful directory from your home directory
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08:08:30 <esolangs> [[User:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144957&oldid=144946 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+1261) /* Example Programs */
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09:10:27 <b_jonas> ok, so what I said yesterday about unix v1 definitely doesn't seem to apply to unix v1. I must have misremembered something.
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11:45:53 <esolangs> [[Bynary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144958&oldid=113600 * Froginstarch * (+9)
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12:12:08 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144959&oldid=144894 * Froginstarch * (+8)
12:12:19 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144960&oldid=144694 * Froginstarch * (+8)
12:12:45 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144961&oldid=144960 * Froginstarch * (+0)
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12:15:55 <iddi01> !ztest beta-2 https://pastebin.com/raw/sUX4Zn54
12:15:55 <zemhill> iddi01.beta-2: points 13.83, score 36.84, rank 3/47
12:16:14 <iddi01> !ztest beta https://pastebin.com/raw/sUX4Zn54
12:16:14 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 13.88, score 37.20, rank 3/47 (+2)
12:16:42 <iddi01> !zjoust beta https://pastebin.com/raw/sUX4Zn54
12:16:42 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 13.88, score 37.20, rank 3/47 (+2)
12:20:25 <iddi01> !zjoust another_rush_program <just a test might restore later>
12:20:26 <zemhill> iddi01.another_rush_program: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-35)
12:20:41 <iddi01> !zjoust beta https://pastebin.com/raw/sUX4Zn54
12:20:41 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 15.40, score 39.71, rank 2/47 (--)
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12:40:49 <iddi01> ^echo !zjoust 21-34-127 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*127.-.-.>])*21 what follows is due to the design of the fungоt echo command
12:40:49 <fungot> !zjoust 21-34-127 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*127.-.-.>])*21 what follows is due to the design of the fungоt echo command !zjoust 21-34-127 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*127.-.-.>])*21 what follows is due to the de ...
12:40:49 <zemhill> fungot.21-34-127: points -5.14, score 15.68, rank 34/47
12:40:50 <fungot> zemhill: care to share? do you want to have it
12:41:15 <iddi01> !zjoust beta https://pastebin.com/raw/sUX4Zn54
12:41:16 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 14.17, score 37.96, rank 2/47 (--)
12:44:43 <iddi01> ^echo !zjoust 21-34-127 <damn, beats nyuroki but not impatience>
12:44:43 <fungot> !zjoust 21-34-127 <damn, beats nyuroki but not impatience> !zjoust 21-34-127 <damn, beats nyuroki but not impatience>
12:44:43 <zemhill> fungot.21-34-127: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-13)
12:44:44 <fungot> zemhill: in scsh ( 31, specifically) and scsh, and chicken has recently grown one, to use either, matter of taste.
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12:57:18 <iddi01> ^echo 21-31-106 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*106(-.)*42>])*21 what follows is due to the design of the fungоt echo command
12:57:18 <fungot> 21-31-106 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*106(-.)*42>])*21 what follows is due to the design of the fungоt echo command 21-31-106 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*106(-.)*42>])*21 what follows is due to the design of the ...
12:57:39 <iddi01> ^echo !zjoust 21-31-106 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*106(-.)*42>])*21 what follows is due to the design of the fungоt echo command
12:57:39 <fungot> !zjoust 21-31-106 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*106(-.)*42>])*21 what follows is due to the design of the fungоt echo command !zjoust 21-31-106 (>(+)*21>(-)*21)*4(>[(-)*106(-.)*42>])*21 what follows is due to th ...
12:57:39 <zemhill> fungot.21-31-106: points -3.36, score 17.76, rank 31/47
12:57:40 <fungot> zemhill: languages like python that have very little attention to detail in others? (:)) here at fnord uni they teach clean and c++
12:58:05 <iddi01> !zjoust beta https://pastebin.com/raw/sUX4Zn54
12:58:05 <zemhill> iddi01.beta: points 14.31, score 38.20, rank 1/47 (--)
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12:58:32 <iddi01> ^echo `echo y e s i w o n
12:58:32 <fungot> `echo y e s i w o n `echo y e s i w o n
12:58:34 <HackEso> y e s i w o n `echo y e s i w o n
13:09:23 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144962&oldid=144729 * Iddi01 * (+29) /* 2024 */ has been updated, and is now the champion in all six scoring systems!
13:16:01 <perlbot> wib_jonas: ^ul (perlbot call Nh.2codS5EZi )S( 13 )!
13:17:09 <fungot> perlbot call Nh.2codS5EZi
13:17:13 <perlbot> fungot: ^ul (call Nh.2codS5EZi )S( 12 )!
13:18:08 <wib_jonas> I could nick to start my nick with ^ and I think perlbot would reply starting with ^ but that only works once
13:18:54 <wib_jonas> beacuse perlbot won't reply fungоt that way
13:20:11 <esolangs> [[!@$%^&*()+=]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144963&oldid=144950 * Xyzzy * (+1626)
13:20:49 <esolangs> [[!@$%^&*()+=]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144964&oldid=144963 * Xyzzy * (-7)
13:21:19 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144965&oldid=138604 * Xyzzy * (+95)
13:22:06 <wib_jonas> both perlbot and fungot are willing to reply in private message without mentioning your nick in the reply, so they could loop in private message, but that's hard to start
13:22:06 <fungot> wib_jonas: if you have 2 messages." " yeah, i've seen
13:22:21 <wib_jonas> in buubot1 it was trivial, but fortunately buubot3 no longer has that feature
13:34:27 <wib_jonas> I'd probably checked this already and just forgot
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13:49:58 <esolangs> [[JSFlak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144966&oldid=144956 * ZCX islptng * (+2289) interpreter
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14:46:25 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144967 * None1 * (+12462) Created page with "''txeT''' is a language which constantly output its reversed source code. This language seems in the same computational class as [[Text]]. Btw, a program is a quine iff it is palindrome. The file extension of its source code is '''.txt''' since '''txt''' is the reversed ver
14:47:16 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144968&oldid=144967 * None1 * (+51)
14:47:40 <esolangs> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144969&oldid=144929 * None1 * (+5)
14:48:04 <esolangs> [[Txet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144970&oldid=144921 * None1 * (+5)
14:49:05 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144971&oldid=144968 * None1 * (+18)
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14:52:25 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144972&oldid=144971 * None1 * (+242)
14:52:38 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144973&oldid=144972 * None1 * (+3)
14:55:41 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144974&oldid=144973 * None1 * (+33) /* Built-in interpreters */
14:56:07 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144975&oldid=144974 * None1 * (+30) /* Interpreters */
14:56:33 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144976&oldid=144975 * None1 * (+13)
14:57:28 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144977&oldid=144202 * None1 * (+11) /* General languages */
15:51:48 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144978&oldid=144962 * Iddi01 * (+63) /* 2024 */ Fix link, also it's not six but four scoring systems with as champion
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16:20:59 <esolangs> [[-Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144979&oldid=128365 * EvyLah * (-132) /* Stack manipulation */ remove `V` cuz I don't see a use for it lol
16:31:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zasharan2 * New user account
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16:35:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144980&oldid=144818 * Zasharan2 * (+161)
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17:02:00 <esolangs> [[Slink]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144981&oldid=144735 * 3cxpy * (-25)
17:18:35 <esolangs> [[Chronos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144982 * Zasharan2 * (+3079) Created page with "'''Chronos''' is a two dimensional esoteric programming language based off of [[Befunge]], with the ability to time travel. ==Time Travel== Chronos offers the ability for instruction pointers (cursors) to time travel. The language does not actually track time; rather
17:28:07 <esolangs> [[Chronos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144983&oldid=144982 * Zasharan2 * (+2)
17:31:31 <esolangs> [[Chronos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144984&oldid=144983 * Zasharan2 * (+151)
17:32:05 <esolangs> [[Chronos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144985&oldid=144984 * Zasharan2 * (-2)
17:35:43 <esolangs> [[Chronos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144986&oldid=144985 * Zasharan2 * (-26)
17:40:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144987&oldid=144670 * Zasharan2 * (+14)
17:57:40 <b_jonas> another weird thing that a joust game could do is where it has a powerful computer but with rather delayed reaction. the fast body of the submission executes one of 8 instructions every round depending on its current instruction pointer, each instruction is either [ with two next instruction addresses or one of . - + < > with one next instruction address. the powerful computer has enough memory and CPU
17:57:46 <b_jonas> time to do complicated unpredictable strategies, and emits 8 fresh instructions each round, but only learns about the result of [ instructions (or the current state) with a delay of like 108 rounds.
17:58:36 <b_jonas> but this has the drawback that it's much more inefficient to run the matches
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19:05:47 <Guest82> hey what do uou think of this esopang?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/%3FQ%3F
19:07:09 <korvo> I've not heard of SQ compression before. Do you have a link?
19:12:15 <Guest82> here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_file_formats
19:13:08 <korvo> Ah, it's a historical format predating LZW. Interesting.
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19:22:59 <korvo> Guest60: I don't know enough about Squeeze or SQ to understand the choices that you made.
19:23:23 <korvo> Oh. Well, it's not really compelling otherwise.
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19:54:22 <zzo38> Just Solve The File Format Problem wiki also has many file formats (including ?Q? which is how I had known about it at first)
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21:09:12 <esolangs> [[Chronos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144988&oldid=144986 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) Categories
21:23:13 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144989&oldid=144348 * Aadenboy * (-54) remove shadow
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23:04:08 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144990&oldid=144922 * None1 * (+21) /* Txet */
23:04:23 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144991&oldid=144990 * None1 * (+1) /* txeT */
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06:18:18 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144992&oldid=144954 * ZCX islptng * (+157) categories
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07:59:36 <esolangs> [["python"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144993&oldid=144945 * Ractangle * (+45)
08:01:02 <esolangs> [[Xuki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144994&oldid=144881 * Ractangle * (+42) /* Syntax */
08:01:27 <esolangs> [[Xuki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144995&oldid=144994 * Ractangle * (+2) /* A+B Problem */
08:02:32 <esolangs> [[Xuki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144996&oldid=144995 * Ractangle * (+4) /* A+B Problem */
08:03:11 <esolangs> [[Xuki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144997&oldid=144996 * Ractangle * (+43) /* Syntax */
08:09:07 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144998&oldid=144917 * Ractangle * (+393) fuck this i am setting this to the old thing
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09:31:20 <esolangs> [[Mmr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144999 * Iddi01 * (+7234) Why do i like to create lng that are a pain to program in
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09:56:14 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145000&oldid=144559 * Iddi01 * (+217) I'm so lucky to have an username befitting the perfect recursive acronym, also, [[Memory]]
10:01:42 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145001&oldid=144987 * Iddi01 * (+16) /* M */ Decided to ignore unicode values this time
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10:35:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Null program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145002&oldid=13397 * Ractangle * (+478) /* is Null program a quine? */ new section
10:35:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Null program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145003&oldid=145002 * Ractangle * (+28) /* is Null program a quine? */
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10:40:29 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145004&oldid=141086 * Ractangle * (+42) /* 15 */
10:41:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145005&oldid=144721 * None1 * (+324)
10:46:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145006&oldid=145005 * Ractangle * (+201) /* Grade */
10:47:46 <esolangs> [["python"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145007&oldid=144993 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Syntax */
10:48:02 <esolangs> [["python"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145008&oldid=145007 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */
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12:03:33 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145009&oldid=92233 * Ractangle * (+48) /* Commands */
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12:07:21 <esolangs> [[Unhappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145010&oldid=143272 * Ractangle * (-64) /* :( */
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13:20:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145011&oldid=135023 * ZCX islptng * (+106)
13:29:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145012&oldid=144196 * ZCX islptng * (+386) dammit
13:39:54 <esolangs> [[Pick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145013 * None1 * (+4709) Created page with "'''Pick''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is based on randomly picking stuff. ==Data storage== Pick has a set of unbounded unsigned integers, and three unbounded unsigned accmulators A, B and C. Initially, the set is empty, and the accumulators are zero. ===C=
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13:44:14 <esolangs> [[Pick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145014&oldid=145013 * None1 * (+496) /* Computational class */
13:44:41 <esolangs> [[Pick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145015&oldid=145014 * None1 * (+5) /* Commands */
13:45:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145016&oldid=145001 * None1 * (+11) /* P */
13:47:30 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145017&oldid=144462 * None1 * (+92) /* My Esolangs */
13:52:39 <esolangs> [[Chronos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145018&oldid=144988 * Zasharan2 * (+100)
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14:31:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Null program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145019&oldid=145003 * None1 * (+375) /* is Null program a quine? */
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14:44:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Null program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145020&oldid=145019 * None1 * (+673) /* Another definition or two */ [[null program]] vs [[NOP]].
14:47:22 <esolangs> [[Null program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145021&oldid=73373 * None1 * (+72)
14:47:41 <esolangs> [[Null program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145022&oldid=145021 * None1 * (+2)
14:48:32 <esolangs> [[Nop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145023&oldid=112279 * None1 * (+83)
14:48:46 <esolangs> [[Nop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145024&oldid=145023 * None1 * (+5)
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17:31:48 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145025&oldid=141866 * Aadenboy * (+117) proposal; revert if false
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19:50:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145026&oldid=145016 * Robotosaurus6502 * (+10) Added JIT to this page.
19:50:35 <esolangs> [[JIT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145027 * Robotosaurus6502 * (+903) A OISC named JIT was added to the wiki.
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20:29:04 <Soni> we have this silly idea for a python extension, how does it look? https://bpa.st/TPKWY
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20:50:34 <Soni> "exception-oriented programming"
21:07:39 <korvo> Like continuation-passing style?
21:09:05 <korvo> This RPython-compatible macro may be interesting too: https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/typhon/macros.py#L253-L281
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21:29:13 <impomatic> I'm in Cambridge this weekend, running a Core War tournament at the Retro Computer Festival.
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21:32:49 <Soni> korvo: like taking "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" to the extreme
21:35:48 <Soni> the macro doesn't appear relevant
21:39:56 <korvo> Soni: Well, how would y'all handle an exception while an exception is being handled?
21:40:18 <korvo> Continuation-passing style gives an easy answer: heap-allocate two continuations.
21:40:52 <Soni> korvo: like any other language?
21:41:13 <Soni> we believe python adds it as a cause
21:47:07 <esolangs> [[Nop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145028&oldid=145024 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6)
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00:10:29 <esolangs> [[JIT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145029&oldid=145027 * Aadenboy * (+10) stubbing
00:13:26 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145030&oldid=145025 * Aadenboy * (-1) /* Instructions */ fixed table issue...
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03:58:18 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, what happens if an object's text somehow changes while that object is resolving?
04:04:46 <zzo38> (Is this possible with some combinations of official cards?)
06:17:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145031&oldid=144302 * Iddi01 * (-1193) /* List of candidates */ Still seems too inappropriate and not special enough, removing my proposal
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07:15:50 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think it's possible, all the text changers I can think of affect an object for as long as it's on the stack / in play and start applying during the resolution of the text changer
07:17:35 <ais523> ah wait, there is one I missed: Exchange of Words ("For as long as Exchange of Words is on the battlefield, exchange the text boxes of those creatures"), that does something like what you want but it only affects cards on the battlefield so it can't affect a spell while it's resolving
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07:43:40 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145032&oldid=130058 * Iddi01 * (-46289) This page is now in sync with the actual article
07:44:47 <esolangs> [[Variambda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145033 * ZCX islptng * (+999) Created page with "This is another esolang by islptng. The title, is a mixture of "Variable" and "lambda".</br> The only thing you can do in this esolang is define a variambda. ==Syntax== Line to define a variambda: name(arguments)return_value=initial_value if <code>(arguments) re
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07:51:28 <esolangs> [[Variambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145034&oldid=145033 * ZCX islptng * (+389)
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08:30:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145035&oldid=145011 * Ractangle * (+206)
08:32:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145036&oldid=145006 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Grade */
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10:51:11 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145037&oldid=145004 * Ractangle * (-47) Firstly. This Chinese text is kind of useless. Second. Doesn't batch tell us that the program is done?
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13:40:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145038&oldid=143810 * ZCX islptng * (+348)
13:50:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:The Genius from Kiev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145039 * Yayimhere * (+104) Created page with "where is 4????? ~~~~"
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13:55:20 <esolangs> [[StackMachine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145040 * ZCX islptng * (+2465) Created page with "This is an ordinary stack-based esolang that was created by a Discord bot(antigollark). ===First answer=== push: Pushes a value onto the stack. pop: Pops a value from the stack and discards it. dup: Duplicates the top value on the stack. swap: Swaps the t
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14:04:52 <esolangs> [[Python But WORST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145041&oldid=141414 * Stysan * (+166) added examples
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14:33:10 <esolangs> [[StackMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145042&oldid=145040 * ZCX islptng * (+263) rot
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15:03:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145043&oldid=145038 * Ractangle * (+164) /* */
15:23:59 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145044&oldid=143628 * Ractangle * (+56) /* Commands */
15:24:11 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145045&oldid=145044 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Hello, world! */
15:24:46 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145046&oldid=145045 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Commands */
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17:47:27 <Soni> korvo: specifically, we'd just use unwinding
17:49:04 <Soni> there are some funny GC tricks you can do to preserve stack traces when doing EOP while still getting much better performance than traditional stack walking/unwinding but they're unnecessary for an esolang toy
17:49:18 <Soni> so "just patch it into python" is probably fine
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18:25:45 <korvo> Soni: Sure, whatever works.
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20:15:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145047&oldid=145043 * Ractangle * (+32) /* */
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20:47:26 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145048&oldid=145046 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Examples */
20:47:34 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145049&oldid=145048 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Commands */
20:48:07 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145050&oldid=145049 * Ractangle * (-78) /* Commands */
20:49:36 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145051&oldid=145050 * Ractangle * (+78)
20:50:21 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145052&oldid=145051 * Ractangle * (+66) /* Truth-machine */
20:50:36 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145053&oldid=145052 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Hello, world! */
21:18:26 <esolangs> [[Variambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145054&oldid=145034 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Categories
21:19:25 <esolangs> [[StackMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145055&oldid=145042 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Categories
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00:04:36 <korvo> I got my tagless-final version of Brainfuck working: https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/main/bf/bf.py
00:05:36 <korvo> Final encodings of optimizers are tricky because the abstract domain has to be written down explicitly. It turns out that encoding the semantics as a monoid was also important because it removed the question of whether an individual instruction is a sequence of actions.
00:06:45 <korvo> I'm contemplating in #pypy whether I should write a blog post comparing it to other interpreters. I think it's got pretty good times: 2.5s for mandel.b and 0.1s for bench.b when JIT is enabled.
00:11:43 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145056&oldid=143889 * Corbin * (+167) Add link to an example interpreter.
00:37:12 <esolangs> [[Sharp flat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145057&oldid=112349 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+36) /* Example Programs */
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01:00:11 <esolangs> [[BF (category)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145058 * Corbin * (+2616) Lay out a category.
01:00:35 <korvo> But Is It Brainfuck?
01:04:46 <esolangs> [[BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145059&oldid=131222 * Corbin * (-38) Three's a crowd; clean up and make disambiguation parens explicit.
01:07:56 <korvo> Okay, done for now. Dinner before more edits. Main driving question: if you can't poly-time reduce it to something resembling original Brainfuck, then is it really a Brainfuck equivalent? Similarly, if you can't embed original Brainfuck in it in poly time, is it really a Brainfuck derivative?
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01:46:55 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Going to Zagreb to buy a pony]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145060 * Salpynx * (+4645) I asked ChatGPT to describe this language after a bit of priming, it has provided some other helpful suggestions in line with ideas I already had. Perhaps this is more of a collaboration than pure AI nonsense. Some of it is mine. WIP.
01:48:41 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Going to Zagreb to buy a pony]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145061&oldid=145060 * Salpynx * (+22) heading levels
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03:36:24 <zzo38> I had mentione before that sometimes the cursor blinking stops working in some windows temporarily, usually soon after the computer starts, but this time it is doing it now instead. (It is affecting most of the windows (including this one) but not all of them.)
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05:34:05 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145062 * Gggfr * (+1192) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''the nutjob from wellington''' is an [[esolang]] created by [[User:yayimhere]] to do two things: * complete the trilogy of the _ from _. * look like [[The Genius from Kiev]] and have triggers like [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] but be different i
05:34:25 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145063&oldid=145062 * Gggfr * (+2) /* semantics and syntax */
05:58:00 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145064&oldid=145030 * Aadenboy * (+29) update influenced list, use distinguish template
05:59:21 <zzo38> Is it possible with GCC with -rdynamic but to only export the functions in one of the .o files into dynamic libraries but not all of the .o files?
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06:53:36 <esolangs> [[StackMachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145065&oldid=145055 * ZCX islptng * (+29) someone forgot an important category
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07:32:41 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145066&oldid=145063 * Yayimhere * (+1539)
07:40:08 <esolangs> [[Mmr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145067&oldid=144999 * Iddi01 * (+30136) Fix obvious bug in interpreter that make "Remember: x" commands not work on entry additions
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07:44:29 <wWwwW> i wanted to share this crime agianst humanity lol: https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_nutjob_from_wellington
07:44:29 <wWwwW> what do you guys think
07:44:30 <wWwwW> and is anything unclear? if so tell me
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07:55:22 <wWwwW> also nutjob means sphycopath
08:15:55 <esolangs> [[4 esolang + Python polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145068&oldid=117526 * Ractangle * (-10) /* External Resources */
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09:35:10 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145069&oldid=144998 * Ractangle * (+74) /* Syntax */
09:39:59 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145070&oldid=145069 * Ractangle * (-79) /* Unfinished Truth-machine */
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10:25:00 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145071&oldid=145070 * Ractangle * (-33) /* Truth-machine */
10:25:34 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145072&oldid=144932 * Ractangle * (-45) /* 'Python' is not recognized */
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10:53:32 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145073&oldid=142197 * PrySigneToFry * (+50)
10:55:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145074&oldid=145036 * PrySigneToFry * (+691)
10:58:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145075&oldid=145074 * PrySigneToFry * (+144)
10:59:07 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145076&oldid=145073 * PrySigneToFry * (+9)
11:02:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145077&oldid=144150 * PrySigneToFry * (+116)
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11:05:45 <esolangs> [[HZ3funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145078&oldid=135779 * PrySigneToFry * (+171)
11:07:28 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Operators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145079&oldid=143772 * PrySigneToFry * (+176)
11:10:14 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH/Extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145080&oldid=143279 * PrySigneToFry * (+425)
11:11:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145081&oldid=145077 * Ais523 * (-116) Reverted edit by [[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|PrySigneToFry]] ([[User talk:PrySigneToFry|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
11:40:36 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH/Extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145082&oldid=145080 * PrySigneToFry * (+129)
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15:00:06 <esolangs> [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145083&oldid=134885 * MihaiEso * (+0)
15:07:51 <esolangs> [[Collab]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145084&oldid=137057 * Qawtykit * (+318) added two commands
15:08:13 <wWwwW> plz gimme feedback
15:40:37 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145085&oldid=145037 * Ractangle * (+111)
15:41:24 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145086&oldid=145085 * Ractangle * (+10) /* Online interpreters */
15:46:03 <esolangs> [[Python But WORST!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145087 * MihaiEso * (+893) Created page with "Python but <big><big><big><big><big><big><big><big><big><big><big><big>WORST!!</big></big></big></big></big></big></big></big></big></big></big></big> is designed by Mihai Popa. It's just like [[Python But WORST]], but if the program '''''doesn't''''' have a
15:47:45 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145088&oldid=144021 * MihaiEso * (+74)
15:48:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145089&oldid=145026 * MihaiEso * (+34)
15:49:20 <esolangs> [[Python but WORST!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145090 * MihaiEso * (+32) Redirected page to [[Python But WORST!!]]
15:50:06 <esolangs> [[Python But WORST!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145091&oldid=145087 * MihaiEso * (-5)
15:51:18 <esolangs> [[Python But WORST!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145092&oldid=145091 * MihaiEso * (-50)
15:53:04 <esolangs> [[Python But WORST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145093&oldid=145041 * MihaiEso * (+22) /* See also */
15:53:11 <esolangs> [[Python But WORST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145094&oldid=145093 * MihaiEso * (+1) /* See also */
16:04:15 <esolangs> [[Everyonelang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145095&oldid=130110 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-163)
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16:07:13 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145096&oldid=139415 * MihaiEso * (+43)
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16:36:02 <esolangs> [[-5 bytes ;)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145097&oldid=144547 * Ractangle * (+82) /* Implementation */
16:37:49 <esolangs> [[-5 bytes ;)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145098&oldid=145097 * Ractangle * (+162) /* Implementation */
17:11:56 <korvo> wWwwW: I'm not sure how it's related to the other two similarly-named languages.
17:41:35 <korvo> wWwwW: BTW I hacked out a stub for deciding whether a syntax is a Brainfuck equivalent/derivative; LMK what you think: https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_(category)
17:46:58 <esolangs> [[Where is my esolang?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145099 * ZCX islptng * (+537) Created page with "yet another esolang by islptng i'm too busy to write detail here <pre> where is my [name]? # define variable I've forgot where I put [name] for the [number][st/nd/rd/th] time! # name <- number let me think about it. after I used my [name] the last tim
17:49:18 <wWwwW> korvo: moslty its(as the names jokes shows) as long away from both langs, but still have derived concept while still beiong nothing like them:]
17:52:54 <int-e> korvo: Hmm. How would you capture algebraically that +>+<->-< is a no-op? Not that people are likely to write that kind of code.
17:55:59 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145100&oldid=145056 * Int-e * (+0) pick a nit
17:57:57 <int-e> (My own toy BF intermediate language is type Offset = Integer, data BF = Add Offset Integer | Input Ofs | Output Ofs | Loop Offset [BF] | ... where ... captures higher level building blocks that may arise from recognizing certain idioms. The Offset in loops is for accounting for things like [>] that shift the pointer on each iteration.)
17:58:42 <esolangs> [[Where is my esolang?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145101&oldid=145099 * ZCX islptng * (+492)
17:59:40 <int-e> And the point of tracking offsets is that all Add instructions commute with one another.
18:00:15 <korvo> int-e: Good example. The monoid isn't finitely generated, so there will always be new rules that could be added to an optimizer.
18:00:32 <korvo> ISTR that this is a fundamental feature of TC systems, but I have no idea who said it or how they phrased it.
18:00:49 <wWwwW> bur korvo other thsn thta detail what do you thinkj?
18:01:03 <int-e> Oh sure, you run into Rice' theorem sooner or later.
18:01:24 <korvo> wWwwW: I'm not a fan, but I'm also not a fan of the source languages. They don't really feel rewarding to me.
18:02:29 <int-e> Hmm, what's the better possessive? Rice' or Rice's?
18:02:37 <korvo> Amnesiac From Minsk starts out as Minsky-style counter machines. No thank you! The only time I've appreciated those is in the proof that Braid is TC.
18:03:05 <int-e> Yeah Minsky machines are a great target for proving things TC.
18:03:08 <korvo> Ha, I've never seen "Rice'" before, but it makes sense phonetically.
18:03:15 <int-e> And an awful target for "real" programming.
18:04:29 <int-e> It's a bit like combinatory logic.
18:04:55 <int-e> You generally don't want to write Minsky machines directly. You want to compile to them.
18:05:01 <wWwwW> it isnt rlly but like kinda is
18:05:53 <int-e> Heck, Brainfuck with bounded tape and unbounded cells is a better Minsky machine.
18:06:05 <int-e> In terms of programmability.
18:07:33 <korvo> There's something psychological about it. Numberphile is famous for using lots of sheets of paper; I wonder how folks would feel if they instead wrote every theorem and statement with a unique ideogram? That's how counter machines feel to me.
18:08:02 <wWwwW> if you jumped in BF it would just be a minsky machine with infinite registers and a pointer
18:08:12 <wWwwW> korvo: lol thats funny
18:08:57 <int-e> korvo: I don't know what it is tbh. There's something cozy about loops, despite the struggle to make conditionals from them.
18:09:27 <int-e> This may be Stockholm syndrome. I've spent quite a bit of time of my life actually writing Brainfuck code.
18:10:27 <int-e> (And very little time constructing Minsky machines.)
18:11:00 <korvo> I'd rather write Brainfuck than LC, CL, or TMs. I think that it's because Brainfuck offers a little more potential for disciplined composition of subprograms.
18:11:45 <korvo> I guess writing LC or CL isn't too bad given a macro system. And Cammy is basically unbearable without macros, even if I think of a hive as more of an IDE than a ball of macros.
18:11:54 <wWwwW> int-e: techno stockholm syndrome......... nice lol
18:13:07 <int-e> korvo: Oh but LC is actually nice in that it enables abstraction (in the form of higher order functions).
18:13:47 <int-e> The only way I can write CL code is by starting with LC code and then doing abstraction elimination.
18:14:23 <korvo> I can write CL directly but I'd prefer a Cammy-like categorical basis instead. Less C, more B.
18:14:56 <korvo> LC would be nice if it were typed. I can write STLC all day. I hate Elm and OCaml but I can use them.
18:15:14 <int-e> korvo: it's worth noting that tromp's BLC source language actually has `let` syntactic sugar. Oh and support for simple recursion so you don't have to write your own fixed point combinator every time.
18:16:07 <int-e> So pure LC really isn't *that* nice for humans... having bindings (with name and definition in one place) is a huge help.
18:17:09 <korvo> int-e: Yeah, I suppose that you're right. Apples-to-apples, I don't want to write TMs with anything less than (Not-Quite-)Laconic. Ditto with Wang tilings or Post correspondence blocks.
18:17:55 <korvo> wWwwW: Have you found Boehm-Berarducci encoding yet? (Did I actually spell their names right this time?)
18:18:26 <wWwwW> also i hate non LC lambdas. they are stupid in my opiion
18:18:28 <korvo> You know Church encoding for natural numbers? That can be generalized to any algebraic data type.
18:18:28 <esolangs> [[Where is my esolang?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145102&oldid=145101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Categories
18:18:42 <wWwwW> korvo: i had that idea for ages
18:19:33 <int-e> wWwwW: what do you mean, Lagrange multipliers work great.
18:19:49 <wWwwW> LAMBDA CALCULUS!!!!!
18:20:06 <int-e> you talked about non-LC lambdas
18:20:10 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145103&oldid=145066 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+111) Categories
18:20:19 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_multiplier -- usually called lambda.
18:20:26 <korvo> wWwwW: Lambda-abstraction is the same everywhere; any language which calls something else "lambda" can be comfortably named and shamed.
18:20:51 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145104&oldid=145103 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Fix category
18:20:51 <wWwwW> int-e that means using lambdas in non lambda calculus just feel out of place for the rest of the lang. unless its haskell ofc
18:21:05 <int-e> There's also that weird thing that AWS calls "lambda".
18:21:30 <int-e> wWwwW: And ultimately it's a Greek letter and that language would be much poorer without it.
18:23:16 <korvo> wWwwW: It's not historically accurate, but think of LC as a calculus with *only* lambda-abstractions. At the time, a calculus always had applications and variables, so LC has three forms: application, variable lookup, and lambda-abstraction.
18:24:34 <korvo> Anyway, what languages were you thinking of? Languages like Python, Java, or C++ really do have lambda-abstraction, although it fits within their object models.
18:25:29 <int-e> Oh yeah this was the last time of me constructing Minksy machines "manually" (it really bootstraps higher-level abstractions like loops immediately to minimize the number of operations that have to be specified manually): https://devel.isa-afp.org/browser_info/current/AFP/Minsky_Machines/Minsky.html
18:26:24 <wWwwW> korvo: Python especially(cuz firts of all ugly, second of all looks weird, and third of all messy ahhh) but bacially everywhere. idk
18:27:29 <int-e> ...this is why I should never look at things I did years ago.
18:27:29 <korvo> wWwwW: So, three complaints about syntax? Don't get me wrong, readability matters and Python is sensitive to that critique, but I don't think that that's a good basis for a complaint.
18:27:56 <wWwwW> its not a complaiint its more of a personal disliking
18:28:30 <korvo> Partially because Python's `lambda` still does what it's supposed to do, and partially because a readability-first approach eventually degrades into useless goo. My preferred example is Quorum, a lackluster middling language useful only as an example of what not to do.
18:29:04 <korvo> wWwwW: I think you've overlooked what lambda-abstraction *is*. A lambda is a *hole* in an expression where another expression can go, and when we apply a lambda, we *fill* that hole.
18:30:19 <wWwwW> `f(x y) f(z)` how i wish it was
18:30:22 <HackEso> f(x? No such file or directory
18:30:22 <HackEso> x(y)(z)`...? No such file or directory
18:30:22 <HackEso> x? No such file or directory
18:33:55 <wWwwW> or `f(x) f(y) f(z)` for that matter
18:38:02 <wWwwW> what about you korvo? how would you like x applied to y applied to z in lambda style to llok like?
18:38:14 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145105&oldid=145086 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Online interpreters */
18:43:36 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145106&oldid=145104 * Yayimhere * (+11) /* semantics and syntax */
18:45:53 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145107&oldid=145106 * Yayimhere * (+62) /* semantics and syntax */
18:46:07 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145108&oldid=145107 * Yayimhere * (+4) /* infinite loop */
18:47:43 <wWwwW> shoould we have a infinte loop list?
18:47:50 <wWwwW> maybe ill make one
18:50:46 <int-e> Eh I'm still happy with the economy of that Minsky machine formalization. (It establishes that all recursively enumerable sets can be recognized by Minsky machines. It's just the Minsky machine part, the definition of recursively enumerable = computably enumerable sets is elsewhere.)
18:52:00 <int-e> (that's enough of me admiring my past self)
18:56:10 <korvo> wWwwW: I literally don't care what it looks like. I care about how easy it is to machine-parse and how easy it is to enter on a keyboard.
18:56:40 <korvo> But I am *tired* of caring about S-expressions vs JSON vs YAML vs etc.
18:58:27 <wWwwW> (looks can come to typing)
18:58:32 <int-e> "what lambda-abstraction is" -- LC and CL both formalize substitution. CL is arguably simpler (it's a first-order term rewriting system), but also more awkward to use.
19:04:54 <korvo> I sometimes wish Bob Harper's ABTs were more popular. An abstract binding tree (ABT) is an abstract syntax tree (AST) with generic lambda-abstraction. ABTs are ASTs with (typed) holes.
19:05:56 <korvo> wWwwW: FWIW I'm a former professional pianist and my fingers are physically tired. I use an ergonomic keyboard, I stretch constantly, and I want languages that are shorter so that I don't have to type as much.
19:06:50 <korvo> Cammy's canonical form is S-expressions because (pr t not) is shorter and easier than ["pr", "t", "not"]. Otherwise I'd use JSON, and a predecessor of Cammy was implemented in jq.
19:07:02 <korvo> esolangs: What is the jq language?
19:09:37 <int-e> b_jonas: this is starting to intimidate me: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/Mintech.png (Mindustry)
19:09:42 <wWwwW> (here you talk about pianist as a job right? i find a pianist anybody who can play stuff and make good stuff on piano personally)
19:11:49 <korvo> wWwwW: Yes, I was paid money to play jazz piano in restaurants and clubs. It's not lucrative.
19:12:28 <esolangs> korvo: [500 Internal Server Error] generating response: context deadline exceeded [#6267f9299c89c]
19:12:50 <int-e> esolangs: err what?
19:13:27 * korvo outprompts the bot
19:13:39 <esolangs> int-e: "err what?" is a common phrase used in programming to indicate an error or unexpected behavior. It's a way to ask "What's wrong?" or "What went wrong?" when encountering an error message or unexpected output. It's a casual way to express confusion and seek clarification about the error.
19:15:10 <korvo> esolangs: What's an example of hard-to-parse JSON?
19:15:17 <wWwwW> if not we need to make it
19:15:43 <wWwwW> korvo: idk. i dont actually look much into JSON. for all i know its just a bunch of dictionaries
19:15:47 <esolangs> korvo: There's no single "hard-to-parse JSON" example, as it depends on the specific criteria for "hard". However, here's a common issue: **Nested objects with deeply nested arrays:** ```json { "nested_object": { "inner_array": [ { "nested_object": { "inner_array": [ "item" ] } }, "item" ] } } ``` This structure can be difficult to parse due to the depth...
19:16:13 <wWwwW> fuck how did i misread esolangs as wWwwW????
19:16:35 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
19:17:34 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
19:17:45 <wWwwW> esolangs: how did you come up with "err what"
19:17:51 <int-e> wWwwW: one "..." is more than enough
19:18:05 <korvo> Ooh, to the tune of "Sound of Silence". ♪ It's not hard to parse JSON ♩ but here's a hint to help along ♪ when nesting objects very deep ♩ the stack pointer you should always keep ♩
19:18:39 <wWwwW> i just made a fricking train noise with my mouth
19:18:44 <korvo> ♪ for the nesting! can overflow your stack ♪ with a lack ♩ of allocated space, due to the depth … of nesting ♩
19:19:20 <esolangs> wWwwW: The prompt doesn't provide information about how "err what" came about. It's likely a humorous or nonsensical phrase, perhaps referencing the absurdity of esoteric programming languages and their often cryptic error messages.
19:19:20 <int-e> korvo: I honestly think that there is no hard to parse JSON value. The trouble is mostly character encodings.
19:19:54 <wWwwW> hey korvo as a pianist whats the most annoying thing you have to do?
19:20:04 <korvo> int-e: I was hoping that the response would trip up at least one component somewhere along the line. But yeah, I've parsed JSON like four or five times, and it's not hard given a parser library.
19:20:08 <int-e> And why is \u limited to 4 hex digits. :P
19:20:27 <korvo> wWwwW: Hip-hop on a piano or harpsichord.
19:20:37 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145109&oldid=144976 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Python */
19:20:38 <int-e> And a recursive descent parser will also do just fine.
19:21:18 <esolangs> [[TxeT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145110&oldid=145109 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+31) /* Examples */
19:21:20 <int-e> What else is weird... JavaScript has NaN but JSON doesn't.
19:21:35 <int-e> And it's annoying that you have to encode 64 bit integers as strings.
19:21:43 <wWwwW> korvo: personally as a /producer/(take that lightly i make music on the internet for no reason for no money and its prop terrible) i say breakcore beats. but umm i can see why
19:22:39 <int-e> But those are shortcomings of the format and its origin rather than difficulties with parsing.
19:23:22 <korvo> wWwwW: Gigging musicians have to be able to improvise when people ask. I can fake most styles, but hip-hop's a common request that I can't really work with. Sometimes I wish I were a drummer.
19:24:23 <int-e> <img src="https://www.json.org/img/object.png" style="width: 100%;"> -- argh, specify a maximum width *please*
19:24:31 <int-e> (from https://www.json.org/json-en.html )
19:25:08 <wWwwW> korvo: trust me. you wont want to be a drummer. as my dad says(as a drummer), "if i started with drums i wouldve never played the piano". e explained its cuz its hard mto do both
19:25:17 <int-e> (100% is particularly obnoxious because scaling doesn't work. Gotta make the viewport thinner instead.)
19:25:27 <korvo> int-e: It might reassure you that Data-E, the subset of E which eventually became JSON, *did* distinguish between `double` and `int` types with syntax. They were mixed to appeal to EMCAScript-first folks.
19:26:33 <korvo> wWwwW: I can play most percussion instruments just fine. A professional drummer is much better at it than me, that's all. I did something called "drumline" that's fairly popular for folks your age in the USA.
19:27:02 <korvo> Your dad might know what I mean when I say "I used to play quints, which are like quads with a gonk in the middle."
19:27:23 <wWwwW> also note im not amarican
19:27:35 <korvo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor_drum#Multi_tenor_drums_(United_States_and_Latin_America)
19:28:25 <wWwwW> also do you know what a tonewheel organ is? sounds rlly cool
19:28:41 <wWwwW> the only ooold instrument i know that shounds cool
19:28:51 <korvo> I've not seen one in person, but I've heard of them.
19:29:28 <wWwwW> its like house + air + organ basically
19:29:51 <wWwwW> back in like idk i think the 00's(?) they used thi as a base in house music
19:29:59 <korvo> I specialize in electric pianos, including the Hammond sound, which is modeled after tonewheels. I also play the Rhodes sound.
19:36:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145111&oldid=144768 * Ractangle * (+218) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */ new section
19:36:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145112&oldid=145111 * Ractangle * (+161) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:37:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145113&oldid=145112 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+425) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:37:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145114&oldid=145113 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:37:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145115&oldid=145114 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:37:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145116&oldid=145115 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:38:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145117&oldid=145116 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+84) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:38:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145118&oldid=145117 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-29) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:39:47 <APic> Ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu-
19:42:39 <int-e> > length "Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff"
19:43:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145119&oldid=145118 * Ractangle * (+188) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
19:43:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145120&oldid=145119 * Ractangle * (+20) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
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19:53:40 <wWwwW> whats the craziest esolang?
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19:57:04 <esolangs> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145121&oldid=144588 * Ractangle * (+13) /* 256.js */
20:00:33 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145122&oldid=144516 * B jonas * (+12) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */
20:00:58 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145123&oldid=145122 * B jonas * (+34) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */
20:01:12 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145124&oldid=145123 * B jonas * (+0) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */
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20:11:35 <b_jonas> int-e: for Mindustry, I'm still using the savefile that I started with Mindustry v6, so it has a lot of existing sectors that I visited before upgrading to v7 and so keep the old map. I'm scared of starting over without all the fancy tools and my existing setups.
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20:38:44 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145125&oldid=145108 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* semantics and syntax */
20:38:58 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145126&oldid=145125 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* infinite loop */
20:39:33 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145127&oldid=145126 * Yayimhere * (+30) /* semantics and syntax */
20:40:52 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145128&oldid=145127 * Yayimhere * (+41) /* infinite loop */
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21:35:45 <zzo38> About JSON, I think it has some problems and the ones you mentioned are some of them. I think its use of Unicode is also a problem, and that it doesn't store binary data directly, doesn't have optional trailing commas, comments, etc. But there are other possibilities, e.g. a subset of PostScript, or a binary format.
21:38:39 <ais523> <int-e> Hmm, what's the better possessive? Rice' or Rice's? the "prescriptive grammar" rule is to use ' only on words that a) end with an "s" sound and b) are plural; "Rice" ends with the correct sound but isn't plural, so it's "Rice's"
21:39:18 <ais523> this does lead to weird-sounding possessives sometimes on singular words that happen to end in an s, such as "grass's" (as opposed to "grasses'")
21:43:50 <ais523> <int-e> And why is \u limited to 4 hex digits. :P ← some languages use \x with 2 digits, \u with 4, \U with 8; others use a delimiter, along the lines of \u{12345}, then they can use the same prefix for hex character literals of any length
21:44:23 <zzo38> (I had been making my own text-based format which can be converted to DER. However, ASN.1 doesn't have a key/vlue list type, but I made up ASN.1X which adds a few types including a key/value list type, so ASN.1X has all of the types necessary for JSON.)
21:44:50 <zzo38> About those, in some programming languages/formats, \x means one byte and \u means a Unicode character so the meaning is not always the same anyways.
21:46:47 <zzo38> (My own format allows \x in most string types; Unicode strings can also have \u with four hex digits, and \U with any number of hex digits followed by a semicolon, e.g. UTF8:(\U12345;) for a UTF-8 string with the single character U+12345.)
21:47:55 <zzo38> Also, JavaScript does have a integer type now, although it did not have a integer type at the time that JSON was invented.
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22:12:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145129&oldid=145120 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+243) /* What the hell is HQ9t? */
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23:21:06 <int-e> b_jonas: Yeah it's a slow game if you capture each base and then try to maximize resource gain from that base and learn how all the new tech fits together.
23:42:37 <shachaf> ais523: Haskell allows any length without the {}. You can use the zero-length \& to terminate the escape sequence if it's ambiguous.
23:47:37 <zzo38> Yes, although I think it might be better to not have ambiguous escape sequences like that
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01:04:05 <zzo38> I think that another important consideration about S-expressions vs JSON vs YAML vs etc is that different formats are good for different purposes, I think. The same is true of character sets and character encodings, and of programming languages.
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01:37:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MyTriumph * New user account
01:38:57 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145130 * RainbowDash * (+2521) Created page with "Infinite noise machine is an model of computation made by [[User:RainbowDash]]. That, given enough time it will create every logic gate, it does this by using infinite noise based on a starting seed. * Machine takes N bits as a seed * Set the number o
01:41:03 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145131&oldid=145130 * RainbowDash * (+52)
01:42:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145132&oldid=144980 * MyTriumph * (+284) MyTriumph apply for editing
01:42:44 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145133&oldid=145131 * RainbowDash * (+61)
01:42:57 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145134&oldid=145133 * RainbowDash * (+4)
01:44:54 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145135&oldid=141633 * MyTriumph * (+1) Updated a dead link for BrainFuck Developer
02:06:29 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145136&oldid=142272 * PrySigneToFry * (+75)
02:13:36 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145137&oldid=145134 * RainbowDash * (-95) optimize, ill optimize machine b later
02:17:55 <esolangs> [[EmojiLang (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145138&oldid=129901 * PrySigneToFry * (+130)
02:38:24 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145139&oldid=144865 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* truth-machine */
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03:08:01 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145140&oldid=144848 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+31) /* Programs */
03:08:16 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145141&oldid=145140 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+12) /* Numerical Cat */
03:09:16 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145142&oldid=145141 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+34) /* Programs */
03:25:34 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145143&oldid=145137 * RainbowDash * (-6)
03:26:27 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145144&oldid=145143 * RainbowDash * (-31)
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04:57:57 <zzo38> Some of the custom Magic: the Gathering cards that I had made up are inspired by some stuff in Pokemon (the cards do not mention Pokemon)
04:58:54 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145145&oldid=145128 * Gggfr * (+50) /* semantics and syntax */
06:49:37 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145146&oldid=143525 * PrySigneToFry * (+25)
06:53:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145147&oldid=145081 * Gggfr * (+96) /* Editing talkpage comments */
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09:00:10 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145148&oldid=145139 * Ractangle * (-26) golfed it a bit
09:00:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Buckets * New user account
09:01:01 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145149&oldid=145071 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Syntax */
09:01:10 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145150&oldid=145149 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Syntax */
09:01:30 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145151&oldid=145150 * Ractangle * (+16) /* Syntax */
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09:52:40 <esolangs> [[*&&^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145152&oldid=139538 * Ractangle * (+347) /* See also */
09:53:55 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145153&oldid=143830 * Ractangle * (+26) /* External Resources */
09:58:10 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145154 * Ractangle * (+308) Created page with "'''IEO-fork''' is a fork of [[User:None1]]'s project, [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] created by [[User:Ractangle]]. This was originaly a [https://github.com/none-None1/Interpret-Esolangs-Online/pull/2 pull reques] to add [[6]] to [[Interpret Esolangs Online|IEO]] ==A
09:58:29 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145155&oldid=145154 * Ractangle * (+41)
10:00:18 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145156&oldid=145105 * Ractangle * (-29) /* Online interpreters */
10:01:41 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145157&oldid=145155 * Ractangle * (+38) /* Added languages */
10:03:04 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145158&oldid=145157 * Ractangle * (+80)
10:03:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145159&oldid=145047 * Ractangle * (+58) /* IEO-fork section */ new section
10:04:54 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145160&oldid=145158 * Ractangle * (+105) /* Can help? */
10:10:31 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145161&oldid=145160 * Ractangle * (+43) /* See also */
10:11:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145162&oldid=145159 * Ractangle * (+4) /* IEO-fork section */
10:13:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145163&oldid=145075 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Grade */
10:14:40 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145164&oldid=144025 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Added commands by PSTF */
10:16:58 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145165&oldid=145164 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Do nothing */
10:17:13 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145166&oldid=145165 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Hello, world! */
10:24:39 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145167&oldid=145156 * Ractangle * (-17) /* Categories */
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10:36:42 <esolangs> [[Assemble]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145168&oldid=144292 * PrySigneToFry * (+16) Fixed
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11:17:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:IEO-fork home.png]]"
11:18:19 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145170&oldid=145161 * Ractangle * (+55)
11:18:26 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145171&oldid=145170 * Ractangle * (+0)
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11:50:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kloodi * New user account
11:51:03 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145172&oldid=145171 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Added languages */
11:55:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145173&oldid=145132 * Kloodi * (+260) My introduction
11:56:15 <esolangs> [[User:Kloodi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145174 * Kloodi * (+15) Created page with "Hi, I'm Kloodi."
11:57:29 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145175&oldid=145172 * Ractangle * (+1)
12:01:05 <zemhill> web.sync: points -0.95, score 19.22, rank 24/47
12:01:23 <ais523> ooh, new BF Joust program
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13:22:10 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145176 * Kloodi * (+2250)
13:24:27 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145177&oldid=145176 * Kloodi * (+116) Loop summary fixed, Added truth to values
13:26:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145178&oldid=145089 * Kloodi * (+11)
13:38:43 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145179&oldid=145177 * Kloodi * (+19)
13:39:42 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145180&oldid=145179 * Kloodi * (+4)
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13:57:52 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145181&oldid=145180 * Kloodi * (+0) New interpreter link
14:03:23 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145182&oldid=145181 * Kloodi * (+141) /* Emojis */
14:03:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145183&oldid=145182 * Kloodi * (+0) /* Interpreter */
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14:21:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145184&oldid=145178 * Ractangle * (+0) is not the first symbol in the unicode
14:22:58 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145185&oldid=145175 * Ractangle * (+67) /* Can help? */
14:23:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:IEO-fork]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145186 * Ractangle * (+0) Created blank page
14:28:03 <esolangs> [[Restricted batch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145187&oldid=115808 * Ractangle * (+19)
14:36:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [["python"]] to [[Blocked]]
14:36:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:"python"]] to [[Talk:Blocked]]
14:39:02 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145192&oldid=145188 * Ractangle * (-262)
14:39:14 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145193&oldid=145192 * Ractangle * (-5)
14:55:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:S and e.png]]"
14:58:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:S and e.png]]"
15:00:06 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145196&oldid=145193 * Ractangle * (+172)
15:00:39 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145197&oldid=145196 * Ractangle * (+5)
15:00:52 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145198&oldid=145197 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Syntax */
15:01:06 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145199&oldid=145198 * Ractangle * (-7) /* Syntax */
15:02:25 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145200&oldid=145199 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Syntax */
15:03:49 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145201&oldid=144942 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Stuff to continue */
15:18:59 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145202&oldid=145183 * Kloodi * (-1) /* Emojis */
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16:27:10 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145203&oldid=145202 * Kloodi * (-173)
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16:56:29 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145204&oldid=145203 * Kloodi * (+0) /* Interpreter */
16:57:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145205&oldid=145184 * Kloodi * (+11)
16:57:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145206&oldid=145205 * Kloodi * (-11) /* Non-alphabetic */
17:02:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145207&oldid=145206 * Kloodi * (+0)
17:04:58 <esolangs> [[User:Kloodi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145208&oldid=145174 * Kloodi * (+195)
17:09:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * I like malbolge more than Python! * New user account
17:11:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BN^2 * New user account
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17:41:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145209&oldid=145207 * Ractangle * (+0) I just said that "" is not the first symbol in unicode. I even checked it
17:43:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:Kloodi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145210 * Ractangle * (+191) Created page with "alright then %[[User:Kloodi]]~~~"
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18:17:14 <esolangs> [[IEO-fork]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145211&oldid=145185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) Category
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18:46:29 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145212&oldid=145153 * Ractangle * (-87) replit.exe stopped responding
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20:00:33 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145213&oldid=145204 * Kloodi * (-8)
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21:23:55 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145214&oldid=145144 * RainbowDash * (+1104) Explain it better, and broaden the topic
21:26:09 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145215&oldid=145214 * RainbowDash * (-2)
21:28:51 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145216&oldid=145215 * RainbowDash * (+144)
21:33:13 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145217&oldid=145216 * RainbowDash * (+104)
21:33:49 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145218&oldid=145217 * RainbowDash * (+1) Remove any confusion
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21:57:03 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145219&oldid=145218 * RainbowDash * (+51)
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22:01:40 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145220&oldid=145219 * RainbowDash * (+142)
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23:04:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Colon period period colon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145221 * 5anz * (+4) Created page with "col."
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23:20:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:^English]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145222 * 5anz * (+785) Created page with "I made a cool program: Print "Help, I'm stuck in a computer! If you don't believe me, I can print the source code, here:" to the screen, the below it, print the source code, and proceed with "...you may not believe me... *sigh* never mind, goodbye." and shut off the
23:20:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:^English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145223&oldid=145222 * 5anz * (+15)
23:54:34 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145224&oldid=145220 * RainbowDash * (+3)
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00:29:30 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145225&oldid=144992 * ZCX islptng * (+513)
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02:47:41 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145226&oldid=145224 * RainbowDash * (+56) Optimze code
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02:53:47 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145227&oldid=145226 * RainbowDash * (+32) /* Machine B JS */
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04:08:59 <esolangs> [[PopFuck/Rickroll]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145228 * MihaiEso * (+20878) Created page with "This is just [[Never Gonna Give You Up]] in [[PopFuck]], generated using [https://websim.ai/p/_dixok92bdzm1ksr_23r/4 the PopFuck generator] using maximum optimization. <pre> 000000005++>0000000000+>0005++++>00000000000++++>0000000000+>000++>00000000000>00000
04:09:13 <esolangs> [[PopFuck/Rickroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145229&oldid=145228 * MihaiEso * (+23)
04:09:24 <esolangs> [[PopFuck/Rickroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145230&oldid=145229 * MihaiEso * (+25)
04:12:05 <esolangs> [[PopFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145231 * MihaiEso * (+1064) Created page with "'''PopFuck''' is a esolang made by Mihai Popa. It's a smaller and a "crappier" version of [[Brainfuck]] == Command Table == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Table |- ! Command !! Meaning |- | + || Increment one step |- | 5 || Increment five steps |- | 0 || Increment te
04:12:32 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145232&oldid=145088 * MihaiEso * (+67)
04:12:59 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145233&oldid=145209 * MihaiEso * (+14) /* P */
04:14:28 <esolangs> [[PopFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145234&oldid=145231 * MihaiEso * (+92)
04:15:12 <esolangs> [[PopFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145235&oldid=145234 * MihaiEso * (+271) /* Hello, world! */
04:16:03 <esolangs> [[Windows 1.0/Rickroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145236&oldid=128880 * MihaiEso * (-22)
04:16:57 <esolangs> [[Never Gonna Give You Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145237&oldid=139762 * MihaiEso * (+41)
04:23:40 <esolangs> [[PopFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145238&oldid=145235 * MihaiEso * (-6)
04:51:25 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145239&oldid=137931 * Gggfr * (+94) /* why tho */
04:57:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LDRK11 * New user account
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05:07:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145240&oldid=145173 * LDRK11 * (+257) /* Introductions */
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09:05:40 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145241 * ZCX islptng * (+702) Created page with "3 is a stack-based esolang that is just 1 with more commands and less constants. ==Syntax== <pre> 3 Pushes 3 to stack. = Duplicates top value. o Rotates top 3 values(Take the 3rd to the 1st) # Swaps top 2 value. . Get a character from input. Pushes its ASCII val
09:07:31 <esolangs> [[FilesAndFolders!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145242 * LDRK11 * (+2741) Create the FilesAndFolders! page
09:09:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145243&oldid=145233 * ZCX islptng * (+106)
09:11:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145244&oldid=145243 * LDRK11 * (+23) /* F */
09:15:04 <esolangs> [[User:LDRK11]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145245 * LDRK11 * (+100) make my user page
09:17:03 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145246&oldid=145241 * ZCX islptng * (+0)
09:47:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145247&oldid=145163 * Ractangle * (+177) /* ! */
09:49:33 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145248&oldid=145239 * Ractangle * (+28) /* Implementation */
09:49:53 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145249&oldid=145248 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Implementation */
09:50:33 <esolangs> [[Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145250&oldid=145249 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Implementation */
10:01:21 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145251&oldid=145246 * ZCX islptng * (+906)
10:03:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145252&oldid=145162 * ZCX islptng * (+424) /* chinese */ new section
10:14:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * New user account
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10:18:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145253&oldid=145240 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+386)
10:20:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:H. H. P. M. P. Cole]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145254 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+219) Created page with "Hello. It seems that you reported many of my posts. ~~~~"
10:21:12 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145255&oldid=145225 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (-32) Reverted vandalism
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10:26:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145256 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+451) Created page with "I'm sorry. Your talk page is in a mess. Unfortunately, I got hacked on LifeWiki. I asked ColorfulGalaxy if he could use his LifeWiki account. Unsurprisingly, he replied that he couldn't. I have to stay here for a month. You c
10:26:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145257&oldid=145252 * Ractangle * (-424) Wrong place
10:26:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145258&oldid=145257 * Ractangle * (+424) /* */
10:27:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145259&oldid=145258 * Ractangle * (+191) /* chinese */
10:29:31 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145260 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+113) Created page with "[[/One per generation|OCA One per generation project]] [[/Rules|Rule tables]] [http://lazyslug.com/ LifeViewer]"
10:47:19 <esolangs> [[DeadIFsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145261&oldid=102888 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+388) Introduced an examples section which initially intrines a countdown program and two unsigned byte range printers.
10:48:29 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145262&oldid=145201 * Ractangle * (+190) /* An actual APL-like language */
10:49:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145263&oldid=144053 * Ractangle * (+32) /* Rating and people */ new section
10:49:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145264&oldid=145263 * Ractangle * (-7) /* Rating and people */
10:59:13 <esolangs> [[DeadIFsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145265&oldid=145261 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+168) Added a hyperlink to my tentative implementation of the DeadIFsh programming language on GitHub.
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11:34:40 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145266&oldid=144130 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+66)
11:44:23 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145267&oldid=145200 * Ractangle * (-170) Redirected page to [[Https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ractangle/Sandbox#Rating and people]]
11:44:47 <esolangs> [[Blocked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145268&oldid=145267 * Ractangle * (-26) Changed redirect target from [[Https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ractangle/Sandbox#Rating and people]] to [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox#Rating and people]]
11:44:59 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145269&oldid=145262 * Ractangle * (-13) /* Stuff to continue */
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12:02:09 <esolangs> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145270&oldid=143134 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+25) It's surprising.
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12:13:49 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/Rules]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145271 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+3669) Hybrid Region
12:14:52 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/Rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145272&oldid=145271 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (-103)
12:16:58 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145273&oldid=145260 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+42)
12:18:00 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/Rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145274&oldid=145272 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+35) LifeViewer
12:21:11 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145275&oldid=145266 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+35) LifeViewer
12:31:09 <esolangs> [[GlyphCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145276&oldid=143842 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+24)
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12:57:35 <wWwwW> how can smth be on my watchlist when i havent been on the page?
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13:31:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145277&oldid=145247 * PrySigneToFry * (+78)
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14:24:28 <esolangs> [[Template:Game of Life/EmbedViewer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145278 * ZCX islptng * (+1579) Created page with "<includeonly>{{#switch: {{{position|right}}} | right = <div class="thumb tnone" style="float: right; {{{style|margin-left: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em;}}}"><div class="thumbinner"><div class="image">{{LV:Viewer|{{{rle|{{RLE:{{{pname}}}}}}}} {{L
14:25:51 <esolangs> [[Template:Game of Life/EmbedViewer/Doc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145279 * ZCX islptng * (+2859) Created page with "{{EmbedViewer |pname = richsp16 |viewerconfig = #C [[ AUTOSTART GPS 4 THUMBSIZE 2 ]] |caption = [[Rich's p16]] }} The {{tl|EmbedViewer}} template can be used to embed a floating [[LifeViewer]] applet in an article, using an
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16:55:46 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145280&oldid=142579 * RainbowDash * (+1700)
17:03:03 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145281&oldid=145227 * RainbowDash * (-1) an>a
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18:54:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nimrag * New user account
19:02:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145282&oldid=145253 * Nimrag * (+299) /* Introductions */
19:05:59 <int-e> b_jonas: Did you know that bridges weave/stack in Mindustry? https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/Mindbridge.png (all belts are moving at full speed)
19:07:40 <b_jonas> int-e: you can also have multiple bridges going to the same destination
19:08:45 <int-e> that... makes sense too
19:10:36 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145283&oldid=145148 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+16) /* quine */
19:11:04 <int-e> Heh the game also suffers from the problem that some items are lost when saving/restoring. But that's probably not ever going to be relevant.
19:13:50 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145284&oldid=145283 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-9) /* narcissist */
19:14:21 <b_jonas> int-e: Mindustry has rather special handling where it only simulates the one foreground sector in detail, background sectors are following entirely different rules. sometimes you can abuse this, and you have to at least be aware of it because it can be both bad and good for you.
19:14:37 <b_jonas> it's not like shapez or Factorio that simulates everything all the time
19:15:28 <int-e> Yeah I gathered that. It uses the item/min production stat to accumulate wealth. I don't know whether/how it deals with enemies.
19:16:03 <esolangs> [[EmiT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145285 * Nimrag * (+1599) created emiT page
19:16:29 <int-e> it's mostly good enough
19:16:55 <int-e> the one annoying bit is that the mining bots prioritize lead instead of balancing copper and lead when the hub is full.
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19:18:30 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145286&oldid=143223 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+27) /* Commands */
19:18:30 <int-e> so on one base I end up with 2k lead/s and 0 copper/s if I launch to another base, despite both resources being half depleted :P
19:18:54 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145287&oldid=145286 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-27)
19:18:56 <int-e> it's not really a problem
19:19:58 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145288&oldid=145287 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+118) /* Order of execution */
19:21:14 <b_jonas> int-e: you may consider it a SPOILER, but there's a partial description at https://mindustry-unofficial.fandom.com/wiki/Unattended_Sector_Defense .
19:22:42 <int-e> yeah I'm not reading that just yet, but thanks for the link :)
19:23:45 <b_jonas> int-e: this comes up mostly at the hard polar sectors, where there are multiple enemy bases neighboring each other that there's a real risk that you lose a sector while you're attacking another one. There's one case when this is mandatory for any%: you have to be able to hold both Desolate Rift and Impact 0087 at the same time to enter Nuclear production complex, so one of them has to survive in the
19:23:51 <b_jonas> background for at least a few minutes. It's not hard if you know what you have to do, but what helps and doesn't help can be surprising.
19:26:08 <int-e> I'm still on medium enemy activity sectors
19:26:20 <int-e> threat level is what the game calls it
19:26:53 <int-e> it's really not easy to build under time pressure
19:27:04 <b_jonas> also the reason why it's worth to know this is that hard enemy base sectors are usually easier to capture the first time, when you're destroying the enemy base, than after you cleared it then Crux recaptures it from a nearby enemy base and to recapture the sector you now have to play it in survival mode.
19:27:22 <int-e> and incorporate unit control into that, that's my next hurdle
19:27:36 <b_jonas> this will probably first happen to you or has already happened to you for Fungal pass
19:28:18 <int-e> I see that and haven't captured it yet.
19:28:43 <int-e> That's basically where I am in the game.
19:31:19 <b_jonas> right, after capturing that is where the game introduces to the mechanic that a cleared background sector occasionally gets attacks if there's an uncleared enemy base nearby
19:31:41 <b_jonas> you can meet that earlier depending on what sectors you capture, it's just where you usually meet it
19:32:43 <int-e> it's the first time I saw a neighboring sector
19:32:47 <int-e> so that makes sense
19:36:56 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145289&oldid=143888 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-55) /* Instructions */
19:37:14 <b_jonas> yes, most other neighboring enemy bases are either far, or behind hard sectors, or are locked named sectors and so don't cause vulnerability
19:37:15 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145290&oldid=145289 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+47) /* Instructions */
19:45:41 <b_jonas> have you got finger confused between simulation games yet? admittedly Shapez.io to Mindustry is not too bad, between Mindustry and Factorio is much more confusing, and so is between OpenTTD and anything else
19:46:32 <int-e> I right-click too much
19:46:47 <int-e> trying to scroll, deleting stuff instead
19:47:31 <int-e> or confusing command mode and normal mode
19:47:47 <int-e> but that's within the same game so not really what you're asking
19:50:17 <int-e> I probably tried x and b from Shapez but they don't do anything desastrous in Mindustry
19:53:19 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145291&oldid=145290 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+104) /* Programs */
19:57:13 <b_jonas> I had a few slip-ups in shapez when I tried to scroll with rmb and deleted a whole path of something important, even when I played only shapez for a while before it
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19:59:17 <int-e> I have been bitten by that too. Especially because I enabled deleting buildings while keeping the current active building.
20:00:02 <int-e> TBH shapez is such a clinical game, it should have basic undo functionality :P
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20:19:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145292&oldid=145277 * Ractangle * (+2) /* ! */
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20:50:55 <b_jonas> "clinical game … undo" => ok, now I'm imagining Trauma Center "oops, killed the patient, undo"
21:03:20 <esolangs> [[PyChr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145293&oldid=144673 * ShirAko * (+10) Fixed link
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21:18:59 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145294&oldid=145244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
21:20:28 <esolangs> [[Not]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145295&oldid=145250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) Categories
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21:54:37 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145296&oldid=141427 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Hello World */
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23:22:12 <esolangs> [[JSFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145297&oldid=144674 * None1 * (+1) /* Shorten your JSFuck code */
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23:54:30 <esolangs> [[Template:Game of Life/EmbedViewer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145299&oldid=145278 * ZCX islptng * (-1579) Blanked the page
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00:08:13 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/One per generation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145300 * ZCX islptng * (+12951) Created page with "The discussion thread of the project: [https://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6746|here] <pre> #C b3s23 - b37c8s238 1cpg x = 306, y = 55, rule = B37c8/S238 90bo$90b3o144bo$82bo10bo143b3o$82b3o3b3o2bo2b2o5
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00:42:55 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145301&oldid=145251 * ZCX islptng * (+862)
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01:45:23 <b_jonas> stupid question. there are given N rewards, n kings where n <= N, and for each king, an ordered list of at least one reward (a reward can appear on multiple king's list). when the hero visits a king, the king gives him the first reward from the king's own list that the hero hasn't received yet. the hero visits the kings in some order, each king only once. determine if there's a possible order where a
01:45:29 <b_jonas> king can't give a reward. is it possible to determine this in time polynomial in N? it's possible in nondeterministic polynomial time in N, or exponential time in N.
01:46:20 <ais523> I think your definition of "stupid question" is quite different from the usual one :-D
01:49:28 <b_jonas> it's stupid question because I hadn't thought about it too hard before asking
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01:50:04 <b_jonas> there's probably either an easy polynomial algorithm or an easy reduction from an NP-complete problem
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02:07:34 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145302&oldid=145301 * ZCX islptng * (+34) A more powerful interpreter
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02:32:23 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145303&oldid=145302 * ZCX islptng * (+151) interpreter update
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03:04:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145304&oldid=144307 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (-117) Removed link to locked thread) (----
03:07:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145305&oldid=141711 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+334) Is it possible?) (----
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03:29:58 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145306&oldid=145281 * RainbowDash * (-1519) /* Example Code */
03:32:13 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145307&oldid=145306 * RainbowDash * (-1) /* Example Machines */
03:33:46 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145308&oldid=145307 * RainbowDash * (+51)
03:41:25 <esolangs> [[TWFUNSETDCMFIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145309&oldid=140246 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+8) Wrong term) (----
03:41:27 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise automata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145310 * RainbowDash * (+2793) Rename infinite noise machine to infinite noise automata
03:42:02 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise automata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145311&oldid=145310 * RainbowDash * (-2793) Blanked the page
03:42:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * RainbowDash * moved [[Infinite noise machine]] to [[Infinite-noise automata]]: I want to rename it to Infinite noise automata
03:43:55 <esolangs> [[Infinite-noise automata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145314&oldid=145312 * RainbowDash * (+140)
03:46:35 <esolangs> [[Infinite-noise automata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145315&oldid=145314 * RainbowDash * (-10)
03:49:56 <esolangs> [[Category:No-code esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145316&oldid=131177 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+74)
04:08:29 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145317&oldid=145280 * RainbowDash * (-601)
04:31:29 <int-e> b_jonas: it's NP-complete. https://mathb.in/80141
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07:54:05 <b_jonas> int-e: thank you, I think that works, nice construction
07:56:58 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145318&oldid=144977 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+25) ----) (Fixed user page redirect
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08:59:02 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145319&oldid=144959 * Froginstarch * (+30) /* Instructions */
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09:45:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * QuantumV * New user account
09:48:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145320&oldid=145282 * QuantumV * (+147)
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10:56:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[3]] to [[3 (AndrewBayly)]]
10:57:56 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145323&oldid=145319 * Ractangle * (-12) why do you even need a "main" label
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12:12:58 <iddi01> !zjoust clock >>>+<-<-(>(-)*128<+[<(---+)*-1]-)*8>+[-((-)*256<+[<(---+)*-1]->)*8(-)*-1](+)*21<(-)*33(>)*11([(-)*106[-.][--+[--+]]>]>)*21
12:12:59 <zemhill> iddi01.clock: points 5.93, score 33.55, rank 4/47
12:13:28 <iddi01> Looks like i'm not so terrible at defense programs ;)
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13:55:10 <wWwwW> hey ais523 i shared this esolang with you: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
13:55:10 <wWwwW> you asked: "i wonder if you can specify it down to a single specification"
13:55:11 <wWwwW> i wanted to rehash this question
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14:14:01 <esolangs> [[BFBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145324&oldid=118462 * None1 * (+13) 404
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16:57:23 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145325&oldid=145323 * Corbin * (+59) Not to be confused with Standard ML.
16:58:22 <korvo> wWwwW: It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine, I think.
16:58:47 <wWwwW> why should that be?
16:58:48 <korvo> The folklore version of this is easy: without loss of generality, programs in TC languages have access to their own source code.
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17:01:05 <korvo> Similarly, I think that TC languages will always admit non-narcissist self-interpreters. Certainly they'll have non-narcissist interpreters for *other* TC languages, so that self-interpretation isn't a special case.
17:03:17 <korvo> Why? They're just numbers. No amount of emotion can change whether something is provable.
17:03:41 <wWwwW> true. but i still find it sad
17:03:43 <korvo> A better approach would be to assume that I'm bullshitting and wrong, and look for more rigorous reasons to support or dismiss my claims.
17:06:00 <korvo> wWwwW: Consider a language where printing is the main effect, and imagine running two programs in that language, one after the other. If the first program prints "A" and the second program prints "B", then they'll together print "AB", right?
17:06:43 <wWwwW> not if somehow you restrict it such that no program can be appended to another one and they function
17:06:50 <korvo> But now imagine that we have two programs which are quines, say programs A and B. If we run A and then B, we get "AB". So, this means that your language needs to not have a way to combine A and B to make a new program AB.
17:06:56 <wWwwW> all prograns are kinda "closed off" from each other
17:07:39 <wWwwW> if we say "each quine is one command" then a reduction could happen
17:07:55 <wWwwW> (cuz one command plugged into another becomes a third)
17:08:17 <korvo> Sure. In general, what you're looking for is called a "prefix-free" system: no program is a prefix of another program.
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17:08:48 <korvo> Where "prefix" means what you think it means: A is a prefix of AB because AB can be broken into two pieces and the first piece is equivalent to A.
17:08:55 <wWwwW> so unless FWOTD cant be preefix free then its just that ig
17:09:31 <ais523> <korvo> wWwwW: It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine, I think. ← I think it's possible in uninteresting ways, e.g. if the *only* program that produces output is a quine
17:09:51 <ais523> or, well, imagine any TC language that can't produce output, the only quine is the null program
17:10:19 <korvo> ais523: I didn't even think about that. I assumed that we were talking about the ability to print any string whatsoever. Whoops.
17:11:07 <wWwwW> true. for all we know it cna have n output(well no cuz narrcicist. unless self interpriting can "produce output". hmmm)
17:11:24 <korvo> nLab has a hilarious page about that: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/too+simple+to+be+simple
17:12:17 <korvo> wWwwW: Wait, does this language actually exist, or is your page asking a question about how to build such a language?
17:12:56 <ais523> last time I thought about generalised versions of this sort of thing, I wound up getting really stuck on the definition of Turing-completeness – for some of the resulting languages there was clearly a program with the same behaviour as any given program in a TC language, but the compilation process was potentially uncomputable, and I think that's enough to *not* actually be TC (otherwise you compile all halting programs into an empty program and all non-
17:12:58 <ais523> halting programs into an infinite loop)
17:13:09 <ais523> korvo: FWOTD is basically a puzzle "design an esolang with this properties", rather than a language
17:13:26 <korvo> ais523: Sure. I suppose I'm wondering what makes those properties interesting.
17:14:01 <ais523> it might just be a randomly generated puzzle, with some amount of human insight that aims to make it not trivially easy or trivially impossible
17:14:09 <korvo> We don't even have a hint about uniqueness or universe. I guess I should assume that languages have symbols, words, grammar, etc.?
17:14:17 <ais523> don't underestimate the interest that comes from randomly generated puzzles, I have dealt with those a lot in the past
17:14:30 <ais523> wWwwW: I sent you a private message
17:15:13 <korvo> Oh, I love jigsaw puzzles! But that doesn't mean that it's easy to learn how to use a jigsaw, and I really don't want wWwwW to think that jigsaw puzzles are jigsaws.
17:16:08 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145326&oldid=145325 * Aadenboy * (+30) make external link
17:16:21 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145327&oldid=145326 * Aadenboy * (+0) pipe fumble
17:19:08 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145328&oldid=145327 * Aadenboy * (+3) also some adjustments
17:20:18 <wWwwW> korvo: waht. sorry if im stupid but umm
17:20:23 <wWwwW> arent they the same???
17:21:17 <esolangs> [[Memoryleek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145329 * Aadenboy * (+24) redirect
17:21:27 <ais523> wWwwW: nowadays "jigsaw" is often used as an abbreviation for "jigsaw puzzle", but there is a type of saw called a "jigsaw" which used to be used to make the puzzels
17:22:27 <ais523> when I search "jigsaw" in Wikipedia, I get a disambiguation page between "Jigsaw puzzle" and "Jigsaw (tool)"
17:22:32 <ais523> which is what I expected
17:22:40 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145330&oldid=145145 * Yayimhere * (-3042) Blanked the page
17:23:29 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145331&oldid=145064 * Aadenboy * (+2) changing the file extension because ''apparently'' there's a language called ML which uses the file extension ML! absolutely ballistic!
17:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[The nutjob from wellington]]": Author request: blanked by author, recently created and only trivial edits by other users
17:31:17 <wWwwW> im keeping a list now
17:31:59 <ais523> hmm, I think to make FWOTD work, lots and lots of programs have to be a narcissist due to the difficulty of working out whether a program is a self-interpreter or not
17:32:30 <wWwwW> maybe there is a "standard"/"command" for self interpreting
17:32:44 <ais523> so it is going to depend somewhat on how you define self-interpreters in the presence of I/O
17:33:23 <ais523> in arbitrarily languages, a program normally takes some number of inputs (usually 0 or 1) – to write a self-interpreter that handles I/O, it needs one more input, because it needs all the inputs to the program it's interpreting plus the program itself
17:33:25 <wWwwW> WHICH is important
17:33:59 <ais523> this came up in, e.g., Advance The Wheel! where I defined a way for programs to take arbitrarily many inputs, that was important to make the self-interpreter simpler
17:34:25 <wWwwW> wow i got somebody interested in ma esolang
17:35:20 <korvo> wWwwW: A jigsaw is a very dangerous power tool. They can remove fingers easily. Similarly, I have an ethical duty to discourage folks from creating the next PHP; language authors need to learn security at some point.
17:35:44 <ais523> so, because self-interpreters have to also be narcissists, it's like they have an extra *output* compared to the program they're interpreting
17:36:08 <ais523> as such, I think you bypass the narcissist problem entirely by giving every program an additional output, that states whether the source code and input are the same
17:36:28 <wWwwW> so it cn be defined as "a program that takes at least two inputs, and returns atleast one"?
17:36:42 <wWwwW> (well no but like its a place to start)
17:37:20 <ais523> when designing esolangs you have a lot of flexibility to define the inputs and outputs
17:38:09 <korvo> Another option, taking a page from Futamura, is to require two typed inputs: the normal input data, and also a FWOTD program as source code! This requires you to have a FWOTD program which copies input data to output and ignores the input program, so that you can ignore the input program in general.
17:38:39 * ais523 wonders about designing a joke esolang where the inputs are really awkward, e.g. real-life, life-sized statues
17:38:52 <wWwwW> wow that sentence confused my brain
17:40:05 <korvo> Futamura projections seem to confuse everybody. But you don't have to go that deep; just recognize that there's a difference between input data (as like text or whatever) and input programs (as ASTs or other abstract syntax).
17:41:41 <korvo> I think ais523's point about additional outputs could be combined with my point. So each program would get two inputs (some data and a program) and two outputs (the normal output, and also whether the interpreter thinks that the input data matches the input program)
17:46:02 <korvo> I guess that the narcissism is a property of the interpreter, not the programs? Or it's a property of programs which is verified by the interpreter?
17:46:38 <wWwwW> i originally thought former
17:49:27 <wWwwW> **warning i may leave soon*
17:51:20 <korvo> No worries. I need to go get breakfast. Take it easy.
17:51:41 <wWwwW> (and i cant come back cuz idk stupid rules)
17:53:27 <b_jonas> "It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine" => that's mostly true, but technically only if the TC part can also write output arbitrarily. You could easily define a language that is TC but can only output ascii consonants and the program source code needs vowels, or something like that.
17:54:30 <wWwwW> we have talked a lot about this
17:55:00 <b_jonas> ok, I'm still reading the backlog
17:57:15 <wWwwW> i hvae 2 min left guys lol
17:57:29 <wWwwW> (ill check logs if you want to talk after i leave
17:59:26 <b_jonas> ah right, ais523 already mentioned what I said
18:05:19 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145332&oldid=145328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
18:08:39 <b_jonas> I'm confused, does https://sleef.org/ have release tarballs hidden somewhere, or am I supposed to just checkout a release tag in its git repository?
18:14:02 <b_jonas> I know some software libraries these days only provide a git repo, most notably mpir
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18:40:13 <b_jonas> "where the inputs are really awkward" => I work in industry where all our inputs come from sensors (such as pressure and temperature meters or switches) of which the hardware is expensive. this is partly because they are brand name stuff where the vendor does not put an "for recrational purposes, no warranties" sticker on them, and partly because some of them have to work in a corrosive or high
18:40:19 <b_jonas> temperature or low temperature or flammable environment, and many of them can't be replaced without stopping production which is expensive. some of this applies not only to the sensors themselves but also the hardware connecting them to the computers, and to the output devices.
18:44:17 <b_jonas> "real-life, life-sized statues" => no statues as such, but this involves ten meter tall tanks that must not leak under a large pressure, also two meter tall tanks that must tolerate high temperature, with an expensive use-once emergency exit that breaks exactly in the right safe way at a specific pressure.
18:44:51 <b_jonas> so I think some of the equipment counts as larger than life-sized
18:49:28 <int-e> b_jonas: I'd guess you're supposed to grab the sleef code from https://github.com/shibatch/sleef/releases
18:58:57 <korvo> I once worked for a manufacturing startup and one of my research projects took machined metal parts as inputs. I might summarize that project as: But Is It a Developable Surface?
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19:23:35 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145333&oldid=145331 * Aadenboy * (-26)
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21:04:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aadenboy * uploaded "[[File:BoxDrawingDemo1.gif]]"
21:06:35 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145335&oldid=144989 * Aadenboy * (+488) promotion I guess
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22:25:51 <zzo38> How to tell ITU or ISO a proposal of a OID arc, which will not require registration and will have a number of days since some epoch, and a type of identification, the identification by that type, and then any extra parts that you want to assign?
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23:15:43 <HackEso> [U+12031 CUNEIFORM SIGN AN PLUS NAGA SQUARED]
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01:06:25 <HackEso> Stop taking everything literally!
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01:14:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luxedo * New user account
01:15:47 <esolangs> [[Hanabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145336&oldid=136042 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+66) ----
01:20:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145337&oldid=145320 * Luxedo * (+221) Hello from Luxedo
01:36:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Luxedo * uploaded "[[File:Logo 600.png]]"
01:39:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PkmnQ * moved [[Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] to [[User:PkmnQ/FWOTD Attempt 1]]
01:39:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PkmnQ * moved [[Talk:Final Word Of The Day/PkmnQ]] to [[User talk:PkmnQ/FWOTD Attempt 1]]
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02:05:12 <esolangs> [[Nythop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145343 * Luxedo * (+4641) Add Nythop
02:55:03 <esolangs> [[Nythop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145344&oldid=145343 * Luxedo * (+12) Change examples level
04:33:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nythop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145345 * None1 * (+272) Question about language name and potential copyright violation
04:33:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nythop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145346&oldid=145345 * None1 * (+235) Sign
04:35:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nythop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145347&oldid=145346 * None1 * (+0)
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04:56:08 <wWwwW> returning from where i left
04:56:22 <wWwwW> i will have a list'
04:56:56 <wWwwW> of things we "know" about final word of the day
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05:53:57 <zzo38> (I have been told that it is impossible to tell ITU and difficult to tell ISO.)
06:15:38 <ais523> standards organisations
06:15:57 <ais523> they are quite bureaucratic and generally don't listen to people who don't pay them large amounts of money
06:24:40 <zzo38> Although I could do some things by myself, I would think that it would be better if I write a document for a proposal and then can be managed by ITU, although probably that is too difficult to actually do it that way
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07:44:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nythop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145348&oldid=145347 * DifferentDance8 * (+226) /* Language Name */
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08:35:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145349&oldid=145292 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+3735) /* P24 oscillator */ new section
08:39:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145350&oldid=145349 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+53)
08:53:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145351&oldid=145350 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+3885) /* Wire */) (----
08:56:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145352&oldid=145351 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+229) /* Wire */ Speed) (----
09:08:00 <esolangs> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145353&oldid=145270 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+31) ----) (It didn't even have a "CA" tag
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09:17:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[: ]] to [[True (Ractangle)]]
09:19:55 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/Rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145356&oldid=145274 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+83)
09:22:13 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/Rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145357&oldid=145356 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+7)
09:22:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[True (Ractangle)]] to [[true]]
09:24:26 <esolangs> [[F]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145360&oldid=140531 * Ractangle * (-36)
09:25:38 <esolangs> [[True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145361&oldid=30803 * Ractangle * (+33)
09:30:06 <esolangs> [[true]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145362&oldid=145358 * Ractangle * (-510)
09:32:52 <esolangs> [[true]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145363&oldid=145362 * Ractangle * (+137)
09:33:52 <esolangs> [[true]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145364&oldid=145363 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Commands */
09:36:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145365&oldid=145259 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+284) /* I got banned on LifeWiki */ new section
09:37:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145366&oldid=145365 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (-284)
09:37:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:PkmnQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145367&oldid=141592 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+284)
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10:35:42 <esolangs> [[true]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145368&oldid=145364 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Commands */
11:20:00 <esolangs> [[5iasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145369&oldid=106071 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+977) Supplemented a further example in a repeating cat program.
11:20:38 <esolangs> [[5iasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145370&oldid=145369 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+161) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the 5iasm programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented category tag to Implemented.
11:21:28 <esolangs> [[5iasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145371&oldid=145370 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2) Amended the claim of two special registers' existence to three.
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12:55:11 <esolangs> [[true]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145372&oldid=145368 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Hello, world! */
13:33:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145373&oldid=145352 * ZCX islptng * (-8195)
13:35:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145374 * ZCX islptng * (+8378) Created page with "talk pagespam<br> esolangLifeWiki<br> -PSTFNone1 == P24 oscillator == [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] found a "p24" oscillator in his new rule. <pre>#BEGIN x = 14, y = 35, rule = HybridRegionB3S23B3S2-i34q 14B$14B$14B$14B$14B$14B$14B$14B$1
13:45:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145375&oldid=145373 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+345) /* I got hacked and banned */ new section
13:46:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145376&oldid=145375 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+50) /* I got hacked and banned */
13:49:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145377&oldid=145376 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+40) /* I got hacked and banned */
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13:57:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kisp * New user account
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14:10:35 <esolangs> [[P]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145378 * Yayimhere * (+1192) Created page with "'''P''' or '''PLOOPY''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] based on a joke on Failboats streams == semantics and syntax == === syntax === the "fonts" are defined as: [what A will be replaced[space]with what b will be replaced with[space]ect.] (where <code>[space]<
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14:27:07 <wWwwW> i made this lol. i just wanted some quick feedback: https://esolangs.org/wiki/P%F0%9D%90%8B%F0%9D%95%86%F0%9D%95%BA%F0%9D%91%B7%D3%8B
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14:41:42 <esolangs> [[( )]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145379&oldid=134720