←2010-04 2010-05 2010-06→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:34 * Gregor huggles his vim
00:00:47 <Gregor> So I can't get ffplay to work on the IREX, and I don't know why :(
00:02:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!).
00:02:20 <Gregor> (Ignoring the fact that it's ridiculous to run it there ;) )
00:04:35 <Rugxulo> hmmm, Parrot's Brainf*** bench.b doesn't seem worthy of the name, doesn't do much (prints 'Z'..'A')
00:09:20 <Rugxulo> and the "QuickBasic" [sic] thing is a compiler only but seems somewhat reasonable (if the README is to be believed)
00:10:25 <Rugxulo> it has Wumpus, for example ;-)
00:12:00 <Rugxulo> huh, "Befunge" Parrot maintainer is Quelin, go figure
00:14:16 <alise> Anyone ever wondered what the worst poem ever would look like?
00:14:30 <alise> Lo, for I have penned a travesty on the topic of emacs and vi: http://pastie.org/941004.txt?key=3p1yec1kcynj1rblir8a
00:14:56 <alise> It actually took effort to write that badly.
00:15:30 <alise> Especially rhyming repent with vio-lent.
00:15:52 <alise> Also winner/dinner/winner.
00:16:18 <Sgeo> It's not normal to rhyme a word with itself, is it?
00:16:24 <Rugxulo> lol, "Bush hid the facts"
00:16:40 <alise> Hey, it breaks Notepad.
00:16:42 <alise> Sgeo: No :P
00:17:02 <Rugxulo> BTW, Notepad can edit > 64k since NT-based (XP) became common
00:17:19 <Rugxulo> not sure what "[vi] can't handle 2k" means, though
00:17:20 <alise> Sssh.
00:17:25 <alise> Rugxulo: A petty insult, clearly!
00:17:31 <alise> rms is 2cool4u.
00:17:50 <Rugxulo> Notepad can't even handle *nix line endings, and it adds a UTF-8 BOM (which is invalid)
00:18:12 <Rugxulo> Wordpad > Notepad ;-)
00:18:14 -!- jcp1 has joined.
00:18:17 <Rugxulo> (but I use neither, honestly)
00:18:52 <coppro> nicely done, alise
00:19:08 <coppro> I ****ing hate the UTF-8 BOM.
00:19:13 <Rugxulo> except you didn't mention "vi vi vi" nor "free software vi is a penance"
00:19:15 <alise> Nicely done?
00:19:18 <alise> It was meant to be bad!
00:19:27 <coppro> and it was spectacularly so
00:19:27 <alise> Rugxulo: Yes, well, I had to fit within the poem structure; and I'm tired.
00:19:34 <alise> Yayyy
00:19:35 <coppro> one project I work on I have to make sure I add the BOMs before I commit
00:19:48 <coppro> ****ing piece of **** Windows
00:19:49 * Rugxulo imagines this is how Beowulf was penned
00:19:51 <alise> It commits so many atrocities against proper rhyming form.
00:20:01 <alise> Also, viity is just ludicrous.
00:20:09 <Sgeo> That... makes it seem like people where you work code in Notepad or something
00:20:50 <pikhq> ... UTF-8 BOM? *What the fuck*?
00:21:03 <Rugxulo> pikhq, it's a Notepad thing ;-)
00:21:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, it's more of a magic number for UTF-8
00:21:22 <coppro> pikhq: yes
00:21:33 <coppro> alise: Also I couldn't grasp the meter at all
00:21:37 <pikhq> Rugxulo: MURDER. MICROSOFT. DEVELOPERS.
00:21:48 <alise> coppro: That's because it has no meter.
00:21:55 <alise> I just switched to indenting when I couldn't make it rhyme.
00:21:58 <coppro> that would do it
00:22:00 <alise> Sometimes it rhymed anyway.
00:22:05 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. A UTF-8 BOM is actually explicitly allowed by Unicode.
00:22:15 <coppro> except Notepad REQUIRES it
00:22:17 <Rugxulo> since when? I thought they disallowed it
00:22:24 <pikhq> It is recommended you avoid it, but it is allowed.
00:22:41 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Since always, it seems.
00:22:42 <coppro> hmm... it's Friday already?
00:22:45 <Rugxulo> you sure? even in UTF-8 explicitly??
00:22:53 <pikhq> Yes.
00:22:59 <Rugxulo> UTF-16, sure, but I thought it was bad for UTF-8
00:23:21 <pikhq> It's a stupid idea, but it's permitted.
00:24:06 <coppro> probably because of braindead things like No<twitch>pad
00:24:22 <Rugxulo> "Dawkins is a clown" ... eh?
00:24:33 <fizzie> The "use as a signature" thing is in the BOM FAQ, http://unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#BOM
00:25:33 <pikhq> However, I'd imagine that *requiring* a BOM for UTF-8 is a big violation of the spec.
00:25:36 <fizzie> Also refers to a "particular protocol (e.g. Microsoft conventions for .txt files) --"; wonder if there's any other examples.
00:25:50 <Rugxulo> right, that's what it was, the damn BOM mucks up the shell script shebang thingie
00:26:20 <Rugxulo> in fairness, why anybody would ever use Notepad for serious text editing is beyond me ...
00:26:25 <pikhq> Simple fix for that on Linux.
00:26:37 <Rugxulo> I think Notepad++ is consistently one of the most popular projects on SourceForge
00:26:38 <pikhq> Write a simple shebang parser that ignores a leading BOM.
00:27:16 <pikhq> Then, register 0xEFBBBF as a magic number for an executable format, with your shebang parser as the program to handle it.
00:27:22 <pikhq> Voila. Shebang now works.
00:27:39 <Rugxulo> or ... just don't use Notepad ;-)
00:27:43 <pikhq> (requires the miscellanous executable format module and procfs)
00:28:00 <Rugxulo> MS EDIT ftw!! ;-) j/k
00:28:15 <Rugxulo> edlin ftw! ;-))
00:28:22 <pikhq> ed.
00:28:27 <pikhq> Not edlin. ed.
00:28:40 <Rugxulo> so you've got four choices on Windows: Notepad, Wordpad, edit, edlin
00:28:49 <fizzie> Hey, gcc ignores the BOM; that's at least user-friendly.
00:29:02 <fizzie> clang doesn't: test.c:1:1: error: expected identifier or '('
00:29:12 <pikhq> fizzie: That's... Quite surprising *and* well-done of GCC.
00:29:21 * Rugxulo thought it odd that LLVM 2.7 doesn't have a MinGW compile of Clang
00:29:58 <Rugxulo> LLVM-gcc42 ... check, Clang ... nope!
00:30:43 <fizzie> Hey, I should test if llvm 2.7's clang compiles that ff3.
00:30:51 <coppro> fizzie: clang has about 0 Unicode support currently
00:31:22 <Rugxulo> Clang uses "LANG=C" ? ;-)
00:31:43 <pikhq> clang 2.7 appears to have a regression in its support of computed goto.
00:31:51 <pikhq> I'd file a bug but it appears to have been filed already.
00:32:02 <fizzie> Assembler messages: "Error: symbol `.LBA3_run_' is already defined" times 145. Aw. :/
00:32:07 <pikhq> Yes.
00:32:13 <pikhq> That's the regression in question, in fact.
00:32:23 <fizzie> I noticed one bug about that, but I thought I saw the word "fixed" in there somewhere.
00:32:33 <pikhq> It fails hardcore at generating new names.
00:32:37 <pikhq> Oh? Fixed?
00:32:44 <pikhq> Guess I'll reopen it then.
00:32:46 <fizzie> It was an earlier thing.
00:32:56 <fizzie> Let's see what was it I found.
00:33:17 <pikhq> http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=6608 This?
00:33:36 <fizzie> Yes, that.
00:33:54 <pikhq> Ah. Yes, it's fixed, but it's not in 2.7.
00:34:08 <pikhq> Which is retarded. I'd call that a release-breaker.
00:34:31 <fizzie> "Computed goto, that's some evil hacker-cracker thing, better not speak about it."
00:38:18 <Rugxulo> fixed over a month ago, apparently
00:40:05 <Rugxulo> how the heck can LLVM srcs be 8 MB but the test suite is like 68 MB ?!?
00:40:24 -!- jcp1 has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
00:42:44 <Sgeo> alise, am I allowed to make a joke?
00:43:10 <alise> Sure.
00:43:17 <alise> Rugxulo: it's very well-tested software. :)
00:43:22 <Sgeo> You should move to Reddit Island!
00:45:53 <pikhq> Rugxulo: They pride themselves on testing the code generator.
00:46:19 <Rugxulo> with what exactly? that's fairly huge for a test suite
00:46:47 <coppro> everything
00:47:52 <Rugxulo> obviously they didn't test computed gotos!
00:47:55 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Not compared with Sqlite.
00:48:24 <pikhq> Which actually tests for correct behavior at (and I am not kidding) each and every branch.
00:53:52 <uorygl> Ahh, computer gotos.
00:54:06 <uorygl> s/r/d/
00:59:29 <pikhq> In Arizona, "teachers with accents" can no longer teach English.
00:59:36 <pikhq> That is so fucking dumb I cannot describe it.
00:59:52 <pikhq> You find me a person without an accent and I'll show you someone that's mute.
01:00:00 <Gregor> Guh?
01:01:20 <alise> At least it'll stop people with American accents teaching English.
01:01:32 <Gregor> Good :P
01:01:45 <pikhq> alise: There's a large number of incomprehensible UK accents, too.
01:01:58 <alise> Well, yes.
01:02:03 <alise> But they're uncouth.
01:02:06 <Gregor> Yeah, but there's only ONE incomprehensible American accent ;)
01:02:19 <pikhq> RP speakers will be banned from teaching English too.
01:02:19 <alise> Anyway they don't count as British because I can't even understand Geordies so they don't exist Q.E.D.
01:02:36 <alise> But RP is a bit too posh!
01:04:29 <Rugxulo> RP?
01:04:40 <Rugxulo> Arizona is going a _leetle_ crazy
01:05:18 <pikhq> Recieved Pronounciation.
01:05:30 <Rugxulo> which means what exactly?
01:05:30 <pikhq> The "posh" and "educated" UK accent.
01:05:42 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:06:19 <alise> Rugxulo: Received Pronunciation is the accent of the Queen.
01:06:32 <alise> Of course, it isn't actually defined as that; but it's as good a guide as any.
01:06:47 <alise> It's actually all right most of the time, but some people take it Way Too Far.
01:06:52 <alise> (Such as, say, the Queen herself.)
01:07:01 <ais523> alise: actually, the Queen's accent has been shown to slip towards Cockney over the last decade or so
01:07:06 <uorygl> Random phrase from a related article: "advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals."
01:07:11 <alise> ais523: Hah
01:07:12 <ais523> it surprised me when I discovered that there were actually people who /measured/ these things
01:07:13 <alise> Fair enough then.
01:07:48 <uorygl> I find it strange that when people think of ethnic solidarity, they think of the alternative as being pupils-as-individuals.
01:08:18 <uorygl> I see the alternatives as being stuff like gender solidarity, national solidarity, political solidarity, and so on.
01:08:20 -!- jcp has joined.
01:08:57 <uorygl> My favorite one, and the one I advocate, is universal solidarity. We're all people; let's stop fighting purely over the fact that we're different.
01:08:59 <alise> My actual accent is extremely boring; it seems that no outside influence has passed over it.
01:09:21 <alise> So it's a very generic British accent, really.
01:09:32 <uorygl> alise just once looked at the English alphabet and came up with a sound to match each letter; that's his accent.
01:09:51 <alise> Heh.
01:09:59 <pikhq> My accent is pretty much General American made more pedantic. :P
01:10:34 <uorygl> Judging by what people ask when they say "Why do you have a ____ accent?", I have a British accent.
01:11:55 <alise> I really dislike the American accent; it has this persistent nasal whining present all the time.
01:12:05 <uorygl> What is a nasal whining?
01:12:06 <alise> Like the average American attitude, actually.
01:12:19 <uorygl> I wonder if I have a nasal whining attitude.
01:12:21 <alise> uorygl: The sort of "ahh" - a sort of "r" vowel - repeated constantly in the background of every tone.
01:12:23 <alise> A very nasally sound.
01:12:26 <alise> Sorry; I can't explain further.
01:12:28 <alise> I don't even know IPA.
01:12:51 * uorygl ponders what sort of "ahh" a British person would consider a sort of "r" vowel.
01:13:00 <Rugxulo> you mean Jay Leno whining or something else?
01:13:31 <uorygl> By "tone", do you mean "vowel"?
01:14:19 * Sgeo loves this game
01:14:46 <alise> uorygl: Perhaps. I've really no idea.
01:15:16 <alise> But if you listen to, say, some BBC newsreporting, and then any American person, you'll notice a distinct sound underlying all the American's speech that does indeed seem nasal in nature that isn't present in the news report.
01:15:27 <alise> Perhaps it's only if you haven't grown up with American accents around you.
01:15:45 <Rugxulo> depends on the person ... I wouldn't consider Barry White nasally ;-)
01:15:50 <uorygl> Huh.
01:16:00 <pikhq> alise: You've probably just heard the more nasaly American accents.
01:16:09 <pikhq> Some of them are, in fact, annoyingly nasal.
01:16:27 <alise> True; not being American, my exposure is biased.
01:17:01 <pikhq> Others are anything but. American accents are quite varied.
01:17:26 <alise> But they're all inferior to British ones :P
01:17:36 * uorygl listens to a certain American accent and finds it rather horrible.
01:17:50 <uorygl> This is the horrible accent: http://accent.gmu.edu/browse_language.php?function=detail&speakerid=121
01:18:05 <pikhq> alise: You got rid of rhoticism your argument is invalid.
01:18:25 <alise> I have no speakers at the moment.
01:18:56 * uorygl finds an American accent that sounds pretty good.
01:19:01 <Sgeo> http://1pd.org/play/4479_exploit.aspx
01:19:14 <pikhq> Come on, say it: "AAAARRRR".
01:19:21 <uorygl> Yarr!
01:19:23 <alise> pikhq: *Rhotacism.
01:19:25 * uorygl swordfights pikhq.
01:19:46 <alise> Also I truly believe that the ae and oe ligatures should be used whenever possible in all typeset works; am I barmy?
01:20:04 <alise> And that the diresis is quite honestly superior to hyphenation.
01:20:09 <pikhq> Absolutely. Most of those result from overcorrection.
01:20:17 <alise> The diresis diacritic, that is.
01:20:37 <alise> pikhq: Most of what?
01:20:48 <pikhq> Instances of "ae" and "oe" ligatures.
01:20:52 * uorygl blinks.
01:21:00 <uorygl> It's really easy to press Command-Q by accident.
01:21:11 <pikhq> Erm. Hypercorrection, even.
01:21:26 <uorygl> Can I tell Chrome to reopen all those tabs I just closed?
01:21:36 <alise> pikhq: Really? I suppose I should mention that I also think that the spelling of words that used to have "" but now sport "e" should be reverted, too.
01:21:45 <Rugxulo> uorygl, see History
01:21:57 <alise> So I'd write sthetics, not esthetics.
01:21:57 <uorygl> Nothing useful seems to be in there.
01:22:20 <alise> I don't do it for the purpose of hypercorrection though. I just think it's more, well, sthetically pleasing.
01:22:24 <alise> I don't argue for s verywher.
01:22:35 <pikhq> "æ" and "oe" become "e" in Latin in the Middle Ages. And then they got re-expanded *the wrong way*.
01:22:43 <uorygl> I use "ae" inconsistently.
01:22:57 <pikhq> And quite often the "reversion" happened *when it had never been there*.
01:23:05 <uorygl> I like aesthetics and anaesthesia, but I would never consult an encyclopaedia.
01:23:11 <alise> Do you agree that "sthetic" and "dmon" are correct?
01:23:14 <pikhq> For instance: it's fucking "fetus", not "foetus".
01:23:19 <uorygl> And I really hate paedophiles.
01:23:22 <alise> Although I'm not sure I wouldn't write "demon".
01:23:31 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
01:23:47 <alise> And encyclopdia? What about pdophilia?
01:23:57 <alise> I didn't know ftus was incorrect.
01:24:02 <alise> Is it ftus, then? :P
01:24:10 <pikhq> No, it's always been "fetus".
01:24:20 <alise> Ah.
01:24:22 <alise> Fair enough then.
01:24:29 <alise> Aww, ftus looks so much better :-P
01:24:36 <alise> "The word fetus is from the Latin fetus, meaning delicious,"
01:25:09 <pikhq> "encyclopaedia" is the Latin spelling.
01:25:22 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Rugxulo).
01:25:40 <uorygl> Hey, neat, "encyclopedia" means "circular education".
01:25:41 <pikhq> "pedophilia", "paedophilia", and
01:25:50 <pikhq> "pædophilia" are all completely bizarre.
01:26:01 <pikhq> They come from "paidophilos".
01:26:43 <alise> Well I'm not spelling it paidophilia, so what should I do?
01:26:49 <alise> Also, encyclopdia is nice, so I'm going to keep spelling it that way.
01:26:59 <alise> At least encyclopaedia; I refuse to devolve into writing encyclopedia.
01:27:02 <alise> :P
01:27:04 <pikhq> Also, how do you pronounce "foetus", anyways? "foe - etus"?
01:27:18 <alise> Fowey eetus.
01:27:36 <pikhq> AAAAGH LATIN FAIL
01:27:39 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:27:54 <uorygl> foëtus
01:27:56 <alise> Hmm, pedophilia is a hard word. (Har har)
01:28:25 <alise> It seems to have gone from Latin to paedophilia in German to pedophilia in English.
01:30:27 <alise> The Encyclopdia Britannica is a preminent encyclopdia.
01:30:27 <alise> 1. Note: The author does not actually believe this.
01:31:35 <pikhq> Mmm, delicious diaresis and actually correct uses of ligatures.
01:32:00 <alise> diarsis, you uncouth bastard.
01:32:18 <alise> The only problem with that word is that it makes me think of diarrhea.
01:32:49 <pikhq> We were both wrong.
01:32:55 <alise> Orally?
01:33:02 <alise> (a.k.a. O rly?)
01:33:14 <alise> Yeah it's diresis
01:33:16 <pikhq> It's "dieresis", "diaeresis", or "diæresis".
01:33:47 <alise> Anyway, can I have a lot of money? I have an urge to buy some wonderfully-printed books.
01:36:05 <pikhq> ... And Fox News goes off the deep end *again*.
01:36:13 <pikhq> Calling Mr. Rogers evil.
01:36:21 <pikhq> Mister. Rogers.
01:36:24 <alise> I read the reddit comments on that; apparently the evil mark was clearly a joke.
01:36:27 <alise> *remark
01:36:46 <alise> I hate Fox News as much as the next sentient being, but did anyone actually watch the video before getting outraged? I know I didn't.
01:37:06 <alise> Anyway, less jabbering, more money to me.
01:38:50 * Sgeo loves not hanging out with friends on his birthday :(
01:38:59 <alise> Quit whining and do something interesting.
01:39:09 <uorygl> ¡Ay.
01:39:11 <alise> (Good life advice most of the time, actually.)
01:39:17 <alise> iAy, from Apple.
01:39:23 <Sgeo> alise, I don't know how
01:39:32 <uorygl> It's difficult to do something interesting when you feel like something bad is going to happen.
01:39:43 <alise> Well, don't we count as friends? :P
01:39:51 <alise> Sgeo: Think about things you're interested in, then wait; Eureka, now write down what you thought.
01:39:55 <uorygl> Like right now. I feel like as a result of my choices, the outcome is going to be unacceptable.
01:40:07 <alise> uorygl: Which choices?
01:40:11 <uorygl> And so now whenever I think about doing something, I go "aiee!"
01:40:32 <uorygl> alise: choices like going to the wrong college and not doing the required work.
01:40:41 <uorygl> And also failing to take advantage of opportunities.
01:40:44 <alise> uorygl: How old are you again?
01:40:46 <uorygl> And not making friends on campus.
01:40:52 <uorygl> 17, at the moment.
01:40:57 <Sgeo> I've been going to arguably the wrong college for almost 3 years
01:41:19 <alise> uorygl: Well, you are still very young, then, and your college studies have only just started.
01:41:25 <Sgeo> Also, most of my college friends approached me. I didn't ever initiate friendships
01:41:25 <ais523> alise: what am I supposed to be outraged at?
01:41:26 * ais523 rages
01:41:27 <alise> You can easily go to another college and work harder there with no disadvantage at all.
01:41:29 <Sgeo> Well, once, very recently
01:41:31 <alise> ais523: :-)
01:41:45 <ais523> wow, I'm surprisingly good at feeling generically angry
01:41:50 <ais523> as in, I surprised myself
01:41:56 <ais523> I actually am angry atm, and I have no idea what at
01:41:56 <alise> uorygl: So plan that, and do it, and don't worry about it too much because in the end if you're smart it won't really matter because you'll know if you're not doing the right thing.
01:42:08 <alise> ais523: MR ROGERS! HNRRRRRRRRRR!
01:42:16 <alise> ... I think!
01:42:23 <ais523> ok
01:42:29 <uorygl> Hmm, now I feel like I don't know what to be scared about.
01:42:45 <ais523> uorygl: oil spills off the US coast? the entire economy about to collapse? politics in general?
01:42:55 <ais523> exploding supervolcanos? the LHC creating black holes?
01:43:06 <alise> Chickens taking over the world???
01:43:08 <uorygl> There, I just thought about a project I'd like to do, and I had a little bit of an "aiee" reaction.
01:43:18 <alise> What projekt?
01:43:45 <uorygl> A mathematical prediction market and proof database.
01:43:57 <alise> Lay off the Robin Hanson.
01:44:43 <uorygl> Robin Hanson came up with a specific application of prediction markets. My project idea has nothing to do with Robin Hanson.
01:44:59 <alise> Yeah, but Hanson is a big fan of prediction markets. So there :P
01:45:12 <uorygl> :P
01:45:20 <alise> Well, okay, O'Connor likes them too and O'Connor is cool, so you're permitted.
01:45:28 <alise> What language would the proofs be in?
01:45:35 <uorygl> Also, I'm not a person who has negative feelings about Robin Hanson.
01:45:38 <alise> Some constructive one like Coq or Isabelle?
01:45:39 <uorygl> I'm thinking Ivor.
01:45:42 <uorygl> So yes.
01:45:46 <alise> Ivor is not a proof language.
01:45:51 <alise> It is just a Haskell library.
01:45:53 <alise> Do you mean Idris?
01:45:56 <alise> That is not very proof-focused at all.
01:46:13 <uorygl> No, I mean Ivor.
01:46:14 <alise> I strongly suggest that if you are going to do actual proofs you should have a language with actual proof infrastructure; so Idris, Agda etc. are out.
01:46:23 <uorygl> Huh.
01:46:27 <alise> I'd strongly suggest Coq or Isar+Isabelle.
01:46:48 <uorygl> Well, okay. I'm not familiar with Coq whatsoever (modulo grammar), so what advantages does it have over something like Agda?
01:46:54 <alise> Isar has really nice proof structures actually: http://vdash.org/intro/cantor.html at least for the current crop of constructivist meanderings.
01:47:02 <alise> uorygl: Here's why Agda is totally unsuitable for this:
01:47:27 <alise> - it is not one concrete theory, just a bunch of features - admittedly so; it has been proved inconsistent several times, which is fixed by patches. Coq is based on one, very mathematically tested, tiny kernel theory.
01:47:41 <alise> It has only been proved inconsistent once, I think, and that was a bug in Coq, not the underlying theory.
01:47:47 <alise> And was very easily fixed.
01:47:54 <alise> (And the example was a very contrived one).
01:47:55 <alise> And:
01:48:27 <alise> - Agda has very little infrastructure for the actual prover; proving is basically a trial-and-error, run-and-repeat task. With Coq and similar, the proof is an interactive process that automatically shows assumptions and goals for you and lets you step and rewind proofs step by step.
01:48:43 <alise> This is amazingly useful in proving even the simplest theorems; instead of a complete spark out of nowhere, you can do proofs incrementally.
01:48:59 <alise> And finally, Coq has actual practical proofs underlying it -- Goedel's First Incompleteness Theorem, for instance.
01:49:01 <alise> Nobody really uses Agda.
01:49:15 <alise> Isar is like Coq but with a more declarative proof style; I think it is less interactive. I don't know much more about it.
01:49:25 <pikhq> 'A patent pool is being assembled to go after Theora and other “open source” codecs now.' -- Steve Jobs.
01:49:47 <pikhq> So. Fuck you, Steve Jobs. You make Microsoft look open.
01:49:51 <alise> Mizar, while proprietary, has a very comprehensive database of mathematics already and a very readable declarative style. It is not constructive though.
01:49:59 <alise> uorygl: And that's most of what I have to say on the matter!
01:50:07 <uorygl> Mmkay. I don't know what Ivor is based on; I seemed to get the idea that it's based on some sort of formal theory, though not a specific one I've heard of.
01:50:11 <alise> pikhq: Yup, I pretty much hate Steve Jobs now.
01:50:27 <uorygl> What you say about the interactive proving stuff makes sense.
01:50:33 <alise> uorygl: I think it is the same one that underlies Coq. But it's really a library, a framework for building on. It's barely suitable for writing programs in directly, let alone proofs of any complexity.
01:50:37 <ais523> alise: Steve Jobs specifically, or Apple in general?
01:50:43 <ais523> I can think of arguments for either
01:50:44 <alise> Idris is a competent dependently-typed programming language based on it, but with next to no proof infrastructure.
01:50:46 <alise> ais523: Both.
01:51:03 <ais523> in other news, apparently IE9 <video> supports only H.264
01:51:09 <uorygl> The fact that Ivor is a library is precisely why I wanted it.
01:51:22 <ais523> so it seems Microsoft are more afraid of Firefox than Safari
01:51:37 <uorygl> If the theory underlying Ivor is the same as that of Coq, doesn't that mean you can use Coq to create a proof and Ivor to verify it?
01:51:55 <alise> uorygl: Right, but build a tactic or declarative proof engine, with all the necessary underlying tactics and intelligence, etc., plus interactive interface?
01:52:04 <alise> Seems pointless unless you're going to add something over Coq and similar.
01:52:09 <alise> Theoretically yes, but you'd have to translate their notations etc.
01:52:13 * uorygl nods.
01:52:22 <alise> And I think Coq has a few small extensions to the theory (that are almost-certainly-consistent; and you can disable them)
01:53:37 <alise> uorygl: Mind you, I'd wait for /my/ language which will make /everything/ great...
01:54:03 <uorygl> Mmkay, so Coq has a front-end that makes it easy to create proofs. I guess that's the important thing.
01:54:19 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but Microsoft being Microsoft, they'll probably implement h.264 so poorly that it's actually m.264.
01:54:27 <alise> Yes. But the resulting proofs aren't all that readable. But you can step through them and understand them. They just often need more documentation than a declarative proof.
01:54:32 <uorygl> It would make me happy if I could use a language that has a direct Haskell interface, but I guess that's not necessary.
01:54:33 <ais523> does m.264 exist?
01:54:36 <alise> There is a declarative extension to Coq but it isn't much.
01:54:42 <alise> uorygl: You won't need that for proofs.
01:54:51 <alise> uorygl: Now, another suggestion I have to make: avoid Coq's standard library numerics.
01:54:53 <pikhq> No, I'm giving a name to the inevitably broken implementation they will have.
01:54:57 <alise> In fact, I'd avoid most of Coq's library altogether.
01:55:08 <pikhq> I shall stick this alongside MHTML and MCSS.
01:55:11 <alise> It is not all the formally constructed. You will want to build things up from magmas onwards.
01:55:13 <ais523> how badly /can/ you break a video codec?
01:55:15 <pikhq> And MJavascript.
01:55:25 <alise> pikhq: MJavascript = JScript
01:55:26 <ais523> without it being obviously wrong?
01:55:32 <alise> *all that formally
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01:55:47 <uorygl> I wonder if I had a concrete reason for wanting to go with something written in Haskell.
01:55:57 <alise> Lunacy? Haskell addiction? :)
01:56:00 <pikhq> ais523: These are the guys who stuck 3 boolean types in their API.
01:56:05 <uorygl> :)
01:56:22 <uorygl> I didn't want to go through all the trouble of making one program run another program? :P
01:56:28 <pikhq> One of which is only a boolean in *name*.
01:56:31 <ais523> pikhq: ok, point granted, but that seems easier to do for insane reasons than messing up a video codec such that it's broken but not obviously so
01:56:33 <alise> uorygl: I warn you that if you travel down the wondrous path of type theory-based theorem provers, you /will/ find yourself at the very bottom, musing about the turtles.
01:56:36 <ais523> besides, only three?
01:56:41 <alise> You might even start to believe there's an end to them... but that's just madness, isn't it?
01:56:45 <ais523> I thought they had at least 0/1, yes/no, on/off, true/false
01:56:53 <pikhq> BOOL, BOOLEAN, and TRUE_BOOLEAN
01:56:57 <alise> What I'm trying to say is expect to start taking the metainformation like quantifiers and arrows and the like from mathematical statements,
01:57:01 <alise> then removing all the rest
01:57:04 <alise> and jumbling it up a bit
01:57:12 <pikhq> int with 0 and 1, short with 0 and -1, and char with -1 and 0, IIRC.
01:57:15 <alise> and then you'll consider that just as useful & relevant.
01:57:34 <pikhq> And some functions returning BOOLEAN will also return 1.
01:57:42 <pikhq> As a third possible result.
01:58:22 <alise> Most languages have a FILE_NOT_FOUND; ⊥.
01:58:36 <Rugxulo> pikhq, who are you talking about?
01:58:43 <pikhq> alise: This is in addition to ⊥.
01:58:45 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Microsoft.
01:58:55 * uorygl decides that the gate {0 -> 0, 1 -> 1} should be called an OT gate.
01:59:11 <pikhq> uorygl: I call it "a piece of wire".
01:59:20 <alise> I call it aether
01:59:37 <uorygl> Such things actually find a useful place in electonics.
01:59:53 <uorygl> Suppose you have one gate whose output is used as the input to 65,536 other gates.
02:00:04 <alise> uorygl: Also, if you venture down constructivist ways, be expected to have your intuition defied.
02:00:05 <uorygl> One gate can't provide that much output current, so you use a bunch of OT gates to help.
02:00:05 <pikhq> Yes, wires are useful.
02:00:07 <Rugxulo> pikhq, what API?
02:00:08 <ais523> uorygl: I call {00 -> 0, 01 -> 0, 10 -> 1, 11 -> 1} a MOV gate
02:00:11 <ais523> after the asm instruction
02:00:13 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Win32.
02:00:18 <Rugxulo> native?
02:00:25 <alise> For instance, the most common construction of the subset of the reals you can construct, you can't prove the trichotomy of the reals in.
02:00:30 <uorygl> ais523: I like that name.
02:00:30 <alise> But I think there are constructions which alleviate this.
02:00:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yes, those 3 types are all normal parts of the Win32 API.
02:00:52 <pikhq> *And* the Win16 API.
02:00:59 * uorygl ponders how you prove the trichotomy of the reals in Dedekind cuts.
02:01:03 <ais523> the win32 and win16 APIs have the same tpyes
02:01:04 <ais523> *types
02:01:07 <ais523> they're just different sizes
02:01:14 <pikhq> Oh, and note that those are uppercase typedefs.
02:01:16 <alise> uorygl: appeal to not-not, basically
02:01:29 <alise> there is no real that doesn't satisfy some horn of the trichotomy
02:01:32 <uorygl> Ooh, right, and not-not doesn't exist in intuitionistic logic.
02:01:33 <pikhq> In addition to their random hungarian typedefs and such.
02:01:34 <alise> therefore all reals satisfy it
02:01:40 <pikhq> They also have a CHARP typedef.
02:01:48 <alise> uorygl: i don't think you can do dedekind cuts in constructivist settings... dunno
02:01:48 <pikhq> It is, unsurprisingly, a char*.
02:01:53 <alise> uorygl: mostly we do it as cauchy sequences
02:02:05 <alise> f : Q+ -> Q, such that forall e1, e2:Q+, |f e1 - f e2| <= e1 + e2
02:02:05 <uorygl> Well, yeah, you'd have to pretty much write a function that takes two reals and compares them.
02:02:15 <alise> but I'm thinking a continued fraction representation might be nicer
02:02:19 <ais523> pikhq: one of the most memorable bits of the Win32 API is the way it uses lpcsz as a relatively common Hungarian prefix
02:02:25 <ais523> for "long pointer to constant zero-terminated string"
02:02:28 <pikhq> Ugh, yes.
02:02:31 <pikhq> Yes, they do.
02:02:40 <alise> because i think you can prove <0 =0 >0
02:02:41 <uorygl> If you represent a real number as a predicate on rational numbers, then... darn, you don't get equality.
02:02:45 <alise> and indeed <rat =rat >rat
02:02:50 <uorygl> Lots of stuff is uncomputable, of course.
02:02:52 <alise> but not <irrat =irrat >irrat
02:02:58 <alise> (because comparing infinite structures is impossible)
02:03:04 <uorygl> I'd like to simply use a NotNot monad!
02:03:04 <alise> so, yeah, it's just all compromises
02:03:18 <ais523> alise: does the definition rule out the possibility of infinitesimals?
02:03:18 <alise> uorygl: otoh, you can just axiomatise the reals and not give a shit that there's no model of your axioms
02:03:29 <alise> ais523: infinitesimals aren't even reals in non-standard analysis.
02:03:34 <ais523> does it rule out the possibility of a smallest positive number?
02:03:36 <ais523> alise: I know
02:03:38 <uorygl> I once tried to write ZFC in Agda as a term model.
02:03:42 <ais523> but that doesn't mean that axioms would necessarily rule them out
02:03:47 <ais523> unless they were written for the possibility
02:03:49 <uorygl> I like the idea of simply writing the axioms.
02:03:50 <alise> I guess inftes = [0; 0, 0, 0, ...infinite 0s..., 1]
02:03:59 <alise> uorygl: But that's very unconstructivist, and constructions are Nice.
02:04:01 <ais523> I'm trying to think of possible flaws in the axioms
02:04:12 <alise> uorygl: If you're going down that route, just add the LEM as an axiom.
02:04:15 <alise> "Problem" solved.
02:04:32 <uorygl> Well, then half my proofs wouldn't be runnable! Which isn't much of a problem.
02:04:32 <alise> I'm interested in the best construction of the computable reals. So ask me sometime if you're interested too.
02:04:41 <uorygl> But I'd rather mark which ones are runnable and which aren't.
02:04:42 <alise> uorygl: But you also wouldn't be able to write /programs/.
02:04:52 <alise> And programs are nice, especially when they're all theoretical and shizz.
02:04:53 <pikhq> alise: "Best"?
02:05:00 <pikhq> Hard to say.
02:05:01 <alise> pikhq: most useful.
02:05:11 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_axiomatization_of_the_reals are pretty
02:05:20 <alise> Now back to people giving me money!
02:05:43 * pikhq gives alise $100i.
02:05:49 <alise> :(
02:05:59 <uorygl> I don't know how I would feel about receiving $100i.
02:06:00 <ais523> alise: why are you demanding money?
02:06:04 <alise> I need real (actually, rational) money to buy prettily-printed books.
02:06:04 <ais523> and why are you expecting to /get/ it?
02:06:17 <alise> ais523: Because I'm adorable.
02:06:23 <ais523> uorygl: ambivalent, I suppose
02:06:31 <pikhq> uorygl: It'd certainly make your accounting complex.
02:06:37 <alise> As for your first question, because I'm trying to get some money to [waste?].
02:07:10 <uorygl> If I wanted to have exactly a certain amount of money, I would be disappointed at receiving $100i.
02:07:20 <alise> Unless you wanted $100i.
02:07:26 <uorygl> Well, right.
02:07:30 <ais523> uorygl: you could always give it to someone else
02:07:41 <alise> No, that'd be too complex.
02:07:42 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you should accept $100i or not if someone offers it to you
02:07:43 <alise> It's imaginary money.
02:07:44 <uorygl> If I had a real amount of money and wanted exactly a certain real amount of money.
02:07:49 <ais523> after all, if they offer you a negative amount of money, you should refuse
02:07:54 <alise> ais523: That's a complex matter...
02:08:06 <ais523> has this turned into the IRC equivalent of a pun thread?
02:08:17 <alise> I think it's imaginary.
02:08:24 <pikhq> uorygl: I strongly suspect you want a subset of a real amount of money.
02:08:24 <alise> ...not too many puns, really.
02:08:32 <uorygl> Well, if people can simply give each other arbitrary amounts of money, positive or negative, then there's no reason to worry about money, because you can always get money.
02:09:06 <pikhq> Probably a positive real amount.
02:09:06 <uorygl> Intuitively, I think the positive amounts of money should be defined as those where the absolute value of the imaginary part is less than the real part.
02:09:08 <ais523> uorygl: well, assuming gifts can be refused
02:09:27 <uorygl> Well, you have to define the amounts of money that a person can have.
02:09:37 <uorygl> If I have $5, I can't give someone $8 and be left with $-3.
02:09:39 <pikhq> Or if you prefer being easy to deal with, a positive *computable real* amount.
02:09:42 <ais523> uorygl: but if you had an imaginary amount of imaginary money, wouldn't it have a negative absolute value?
02:09:53 <uorygl> Whatever you just said, no.
02:10:03 <pikhq> (not having a mapping to the naturals makes my computer cry)
02:10:10 <ais523> I'd love to find a mathematical theory in which that /did/ work, though
02:10:14 <uorygl> Ooh, I know!
02:10:29 <uorygl> We'll say that the amount of money you have must always be an integer.
02:10:39 <pikhq> In what units?
02:10:46 <uorygl> Cents.
02:10:53 <pikhq> Which?
02:10:54 <uorygl> If you have $100i, you must gamble until that amount becomes an integer number of cents.
02:11:01 <uorygl> Whichever; it doesn't matter.
02:11:19 <alise> Incidentally, Ripple.
02:11:50 <pikhq> So. Zimbabwe cents then.
02:12:00 <uorygl> Sure.
02:13:09 <pikhq> The metal in such a coin would be worth 30-odd orders of magnitude more than the coin itself.
02:13:24 <uorygl> Assume that you don't have access to the coin itself, just the money. :P
02:13:52 <pikhq> (mmm, 6.5*10^108% inflation...)
02:14:06 <alise> Zimbabwe reset their currency recently; then abandoned it altogether.
02:14:32 <uorygl> Anyway, we can say that anyone is allowed to gamble in any manner as long as the gamble is fair, and has no chance of causing the person's amount of money to become negative.
02:15:59 <uorygl> Then we'll define "negative" as the absolute value of the imaginary part being greater than the real part.
02:16:17 <alise> It isn't really gambling if it isn't risky. :P
02:16:33 <uorygl> If I have $100, betting $100 is risky!
02:16:37 <pikhq> "I gamble 1 billion dollars" 1 loss away "Yeah, I don't have 1 billion dollars" "You owe me all the money bitch." Bam. Negative money.
02:16:39 <ais523> alise: it is risky, because you might go from a positive ownership to a smaller positive ownership
02:16:50 <alise> STILL :P
02:16:55 <uorygl> So, suppose I have $100, and somebody gives me $100i. Now the amount of money I have is on the very border of being negative.
02:17:00 <pikhq> (or, more likely, negative life-having)
02:17:05 <uorygl> And no gamble I can make can push me away from that.
02:17:11 <ais523> pikhq: in other words, zero-equivalent?
02:17:12 <uorygl> So this seems like a pretty bad thing.
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02:17:42 <uorygl> Of course, if I have $100 + $100i (bad) and someone else has $100 - $100i (also bad), we can just trade and each end up with $100 (good).
02:18:01 <ais523> Subject: [SPAM?] ?spam? Stop spamming
02:18:06 <ais523> spammers get more creative all the time...
02:18:23 <uorygl> So in this system, having imaginary amounts of money is generally a bad thing, I think.
02:18:43 <ais523> uorygl: you've defined three quarter-planes as negative, and the other as positive
02:18:59 <uorygl> Yes, that's what I meant to do.
02:19:39 <fizzie> Sneak-peek on the current incoming spam: there's one with a RTF attachment. I haven't seen very much of that.
02:20:06 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it contains an exploit?
02:20:31 <fizzie> Well, I looked at it with a text editor; it seems to just contain some hyperlinks to .ru URL's, and that's about it.
02:20:42 <fizzie> Also \generator Msftedit;
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02:24:14 <ais523> <http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/byilp/c_compilers_disprove_fermats_last_theorem/>: could some redditor point out that signed overflow in C is undefined?
02:24:18 <ais523> they all seem to have missed the fact
02:24:32 <ais523> a compiler can optimise a loop into anything at all if it can prove that it requires an integer overflow at some point
02:26:35 <fizzie> Does the original thing require an integer overflow? The a, b, c integers there are limited to be <= 1000, after all.
02:27:42 <ais523> hmm, missed the difference between MAX and INT_MAX
02:28:26 <fizzie> It does say in the text that MAX=1000 because 2*1000^3 is still <2^31.
02:34:55 <fizzie> It's a bit curious if they throw away a reasonable infinite loop like that. My version of clang doesn't.
02:35:26 <fizzie> Maybe I have just not enabled enough optimilizations.
02:47:23 <pikhq> Try some -O3.
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02:55:46 <Rugxulo> `bef 05-:+.@
02:55:47 <HackEgo> No output.
02:55:52 <Rugxulo> `run bef 05-:+.@
02:55:53 <HackEgo> No output.
02:55:58 <Rugxulo> gah, someone test that please
02:56:49 <Rugxulo> hmmm, okay, never mind, that doesn't show what I wanted anyways
02:57:08 <Rugxulo> try this: &:+.@ (where your input is -5)
02:57:42 <Rugxulo> bef = good, fbbi or ccbi = bad
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03:08:22 <fizzie> & does not read negative numbers.
03:08:42 <Rugxulo> since when?
03:08:57 <Rugxulo> the original interpreter handles it okay
03:09:07 <fizzie> Since always.
03:09:08 <fizzie> "Decimal input reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters, at which point it reads a decimal number from those digits, --"
03:09:15 <fizzie> - is not a digit.
03:09:37 <Rugxulo> but Befunge inherently handles a signed 32-bit stack!
03:09:48 <Rugxulo> it can print negative numbers too, so why not accept them as input?
03:10:26 <Rugxulo> case '&': /* Input Integer */
03:10:27 <Rugxulo> {
03:10:27 <Rugxulo> signed long b;
03:10:27 <Rugxulo> if (infile)
03:10:27 <Rugxulo> {
03:10:27 <Rugxulo> fscanf (fi, "%ld", &b);
03:10:27 <Rugxulo> push (b);
03:10:41 <fizzie> That's even more wrong then.
03:10:59 <Rugxulo> which, the spec or the author or (God forbid) someone else ;-)
03:11:18 <fizzie> The code you pasted, w.r.t the spec.
03:11:23 <fizzie> There's a very strictly specified behaviour when the number would overflow.
03:11:48 <fizzie> Specifically, it must not read the digit that would cause an overflow.
03:12:24 <fizzie> It reads "up until (but not including) the point at which input characters stop being digits, or the point where the next digit would cause a cell overflow, whichever comes first."
03:12:57 <Rugxulo> I don't know if I agree that he strictly meant '0'..'9' as "digits" here
03:13:07 <Rugxulo> I assume he just meant signed long int
03:13:47 <fizzie> But those *are* decimal digits. And anyway I don't think fscanf would unread the digit that would cause an overflow.
03:13:55 <fizzie> I think that since the spec is so very detailed, people have generally taken it pretty literally.
03:14:09 <Rugxulo> FBBI does it like you say (apparently), and it does indeed do ungetc()
03:14:22 <Rugxulo> are you referring to B93 or B98 here?
03:14:41 <fizzie> That fscanf won't even skip the non-digits in front, just space.
03:14:50 <Gregor> Moop moop.
03:14:59 <Rugxulo> void fi_idec (ip * i)
03:14:59 <Rugxulo> {
03:14:59 <Rugxulo> fflush(stdin);
03:14:59 <Rugxulo> do
03:14:59 <Rugxulo> {
03:14:59 <Rugxulo> i->a = (long)0|fgetc(stdin);
03:15:00 <Rugxulo> if ((i->a >= '0') && (i->a <= '9')) ungetc(i->a, stdin);
03:15:00 <Rugxulo> } while ((i->a < '0') || (i->a > '9'));
03:15:01 <Rugxulo> if(scanf ("%ld", &i->a) != EOF)
03:15:01 <Rugxulo> {
03:15:02 <Rugxulo> ip_push(i, i->a);
03:15:02 <Rugxulo> } else
03:15:03 <Rugxulo> {
03:15:03 <Rugxulo> ip_reverse(i);
03:15:04 <Rugxulo> }
03:15:05 <Rugxulo> }
03:15:18 <fizzie> B98 is what I quoted, have to check B93 too.
03:15:30 <Rugxulo> that's from fbbi (just quoted)
03:16:29 <fizzie> Well, it's "get a numeric value (in decimal)" for B93, so you have much more freedom for variation there.
03:18:38 <fizzie> That fbbi code seems to properly skip non-digits until it encounters a digit, but I don't think it necessarily reads the number itself right, unless scanf's %d conversion guarantees that (it just might).
03:20:28 <fizzie> Didn't notice anything like that in my man page though.
03:24:53 <Rugxulo> but I don't see why it wouldn't let you do so, esp. if it handles signed numbers by default
03:25:32 <fizzie> The Funge-98 overflow check is not completely trivial to implement, since it isn't just a length limit; for 32-bit cells, if you've read "214748364" so far, you must read the next digit if it's 0..7, but leave it in the stream if it's 8 or 9.
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03:26:12 <Rugxulo> I don't really know C, but I thought it handled these things
03:26:13 <fizzie> And of course in C you can't let the actual overflow happen.
03:26:44 <Rugxulo> maybe I'm thinking of strtol(), I dunno
03:27:51 <fizzie> It doesn't: "if the result of the conversion cannot
03:27:55 <fizzie> be represented in the space provided, the behaviour is undefined"
03:28:32 <fizzie> (Source: interwebs; reading the standards is too awkward with the phone.)
03:29:45 <fizzie> strtol doesn't do it right either; it reads all digits and clamps the value to LONG_MAX.
03:30:20 <fizzie> Or, well, you could say that's "right", but not the Funge-98 right.
03:31:00 <fizzie> (The "it" in "it doesn't" up there was scanf.)
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03:32:49 <Rugxulo> entering -3 billion for bef prints 1294967296
03:33:07 <Rugxulo> for fbbi, same input prints -1294967296
03:33:45 <fizzie> It should give 300 million.
03:33:55 <Rugxulo> well it doesn't ;-)
03:34:14 <Rugxulo> ccbi is correct and fbbi is wrong, then
03:34:25 <fizzie> As for why it doesn't handle negative numbers: like I said, since the spec is so exact on the number-reading algorithm, people (at least those I know) have just been implementing exactly what it says there without customizations.
03:34:39 <Rugxulo> which, IMHO, is a bit suspect since I assume the original creator/author knew what he was doing ;-)
03:35:14 <fizzie> Well, it's not quite like the t case, for which the spec taken literally is quite useless.
03:36:17 * Rugxulo is also testing Parrot + their Befunge [93] a bit
03:38:01 <Rugxulo> seems they had two minor bugs, and I'm not sure I pointed out (fixed?) them correctly, honestly not sure they even *care* (argh), but anyways, done my duty trying ;-)
03:38:25 <Rugxulo> make that three bugs, but the third has to do with not loading a .dll file correctly (and I dunno why, only found silly workaround)
03:39:09 <Sgeo> Is Exploit potentially TC?
03:40:28 <fizzie> Nights, now; already around 05:40am here.
03:41:16 <Rugxulo> k
03:41:27 <alise> yawnnnnnnnnnn
03:41:56 <alise> i love finite derivatives so much
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03:56:41 <alise> and also death
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04:13:53 <alise> I need to: yawn. No, sleep.
04:13:55 <alise> Motivation stores are empty.
04:14:50 <Sgeo> Wooo! Just finished the story mode of Exploit
04:16:20 <alise> Sleep! Must sleep! -- no sleep; fuckitol.
04:17:26 * Sgeo puts alise to sleep
04:17:37 <alise> Permanenterelrely?
04:18:03 <alise> When you can extenderlongeratitionermatabilityenactingnesserateabilitynesseratinger a word, that means you are tired
04:18:31 * Sgeo is either creepy or a murderer, depending on how you look at what I said
04:18:44 <Sgeo> Hm, creepy either way, really
04:19:46 <alise> Yeah, pretty creppy
04:19:49 <alise> ...creppy XD
04:20:54 <alise> FEDERAL
04:20:59 <alise> Federal 4:20 am it is
04:24:44 <alise> 4:24; even worse
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05:05:32 <alise> Gregor: ping; if you don't respond I may get so bored as to actually embed myself
05:06:48 * Sgeo embeds alise in a webpa.. that sounds WRONG, and I just wanted to sound geeky
05:06:57 <alise> :|
05:08:46 -!- lament has left (?).
05:14:23 <Gregor> "embed myself"
05:14:24 <Gregor> Hot
05:16:06 <alise> Gregor: that irex thing
05:16:15 <alise> is there anything for it with some form of handwriting recog?
05:16:37 <Gregor> Not to my knowledge, but if there's anything for GTK+ it may be portable to the IREX.
05:16:57 <alise> I'm just thinking about it as a platform for mathsy stuff.
05:17:11 <alise> Being able to scribble mathematical notation and have it interpreted would be ubernice. Still that response time though.
05:18:38 <Gregor> Frankly I think you've got a pipe dream thar :P
05:18:51 <alise> mathematical notation recognition is actually pretty alright
05:18:58 <alise> it's just the stupid eink :(
05:19:25 <alise> Hmm, you know the ... what is it, Graffiti - input thing for PDA?
05:19:32 <alise> Where you, like, draw specialised symbols.
05:19:38 <alise> Anything like that for the rexy i?
05:20:56 <Gregor> The IREX has only an onscreen keyboard as its default input method for general text.
05:21:08 <alise> Yess but has anyone ported anything else
05:21:52 <Gregor> Not to my knowledge.
05:22:04 <Gregor> That might be even simpler, it uses Matchbox and Matchbox has such a thing already IIRC.
05:23:02 <Gregor> The DR800 is reeeelatively new, very little has been ported to it. I was the first person to port rxvt to it, so that should give you an idea.
05:24:07 <alise> Worth entry cost?
05:25:12 <Gregor> I don't know. Certainly the overpriced Euro one isn't, but if you can get a US one shipped, maybe.
05:27:06 <alise> I just can't bring myself to buy an internet-using, lovely-tablet-screen-having, X11-running mobile device that isn't useful for IRC.
05:27:11 <alise> So some good input method is a must.
05:28:08 <Gregor> I just ported cellwriter to it, let's see if it's useful :P
05:29:23 <alise> It's 5:28 am. you are not helping! :)
05:29:38 <alise> so given up on the wearable computing thing eh
05:29:50 <alise> "IREX Technologies is the world's leading provider of e-reading solutions" yeah sure
05:37:55 <alise> Gregor: WAS IT
05:38:01 <alise> i need to know before i bludgeon myself to sleep
05:38:37 <Gregor> My porting job was sufficiently incomplete that I don't have an answer, it shows up as a full screen app and as such can't be used to actually input into anything yet :P
05:39:46 <alise> hurry up this is actually physically hurting me :P
05:39:52 <Sgeo> Hey, Android soft keyboards are fullscreen, and useful for input
05:41:18 <Gregor> That's useful on touch, not tablet.
05:43:02 <alise> eeaaat the tablet
05:43:06 <alise> fucking awesome tablet made of rocks
05:43:10 <alise> yeaaaaaaaaaah
05:43:14 <alise> and now that is my signal that it is almost 6 am.
05:44:22 <alise> "imperviosity" rhymes with "having sex with a tree"
05:45:08 <alise> just thought you might like to know
05:48:17 <alise> also "glorious midgets that are also alteregos of a doctor" does not rhyme with "glue"
05:48:31 <alise> and at that point i ask Gregor once more before embedding myself
05:49:37 <Gregor> PORNOGRAPHIQUE
05:49:44 <Gregor> That is my response.
05:52:29 <alise> Gregor: ANSWER MY FUZUKING QUESTION YOU tree :|
05:52:33 <alise> I |NEED SLEEP
05:54:48 <alise> Gregor: I will haunt you 4eva 'n eva
05:58:12 <alise> Gregor: PLEASE ANSWER ME :(
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10:00:14 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> AnMaster, which MicroEmacs? the most "active" variant was/is JASSPA <-- good point
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14:52:31 <alise> ay
14:52:39 <alise> Gregor: so did it work
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15:54:33 <alise> non-player-shmaracter
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16:01:41 <alise> hi oerjan
16:01:48 <oerjan> hi
16:10:05 <oerjan> more eso-forum spam
16:11:44 <oerjan> oh well, it's over a month since the last one
16:11:53 <oerjan> it just looks a lot when no one posts there :D
16:12:01 <oerjan> *+like
16:13:51 <alise> :)
16:18:13 <oerjan> is "pushed on the stack" and "pushed to the stack" equally valid?
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16:19:21 <oerjan> *are
16:19:47 <oerjan> hm or onto, maybe
16:20:03 * oerjan is trying to proofread the Calculon article
16:21:05 <alise> oerjan: both are valid, yes
16:21:15 <alise> Pushed to sounds weird
16:21:18 <alise> on or onto, yes
16:21:20 <AnMaster> hi oerjan
16:21:25 <alise> 0-9 -- The value is pushed onto the stack.
16:21:28 * AnMaster need ais btw around now
16:21:30 <oerjan> hi AnMaster
16:21:40 <AnMaster> oh well
16:21:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: no need to answer btw, alise already did ;)
16:22:39 <oerjan> calculon's argument order seems to be the reverse of forth
16:24:20 <AnMaster> when you can't find some well established software in debian repos you know it is some very niche you are dealing with...
16:24:33 <AnMaster> (in this case, a cycle accurate x86 simulator)
16:24:44 * oerjan changes first and last to top and bottom for clarity
16:25:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, which way does the stack grow ;P
16:25:10 <AnMaster> if it grows down this may be even more confusing
16:25:32 <oerjan> um i'm assuming "top of stack" is a standard term
16:25:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, true, was just trying to confuse you ;P
16:25:48 <augur> oerjan: calculon?
16:25:52 <oerjan> think stack of plates on a spring, is what i hear
16:26:04 <oerjan> augur: someone's new language on wiki
16:26:05 <augur> is he the new autobot that does calculus?
16:26:10 <augur> oh
16:26:29 <oerjan> basically a slightly weird forth
16:26:55 <augur> weird like how
16:27:31 <alise> botte will do calculus!
16:27:34 <alise> just as soon as i write it.
16:27:53 <oerjan> well the argument order is backwards, and it looks like looping will be a bit weird
16:28:12 <oerjan> possibly. it's still under construction
16:28:47 <augur> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/140
16:28:51 <augur> so this was linked on reddit
16:29:25 <augur> which reminds me of a discussion i had with some idiot somewhere
16:29:34 <augur> about whether or not it was possible to detect infinite loops
16:29:47 <augur> he insisted that to detect _any_ infinite loop required solving the halting problem
16:30:26 <alise> a lot of idiots think that.
16:30:34 <alise> all programs running on our computers can be halt-checked by a supersupercomputer
16:30:53 <alise> certainly I'm sure haltchecking a regular 4gb 2ghz dualcore comptuer could be done with a computer that would fit into the universe
16:31:00 <alise> well, i think :-)
16:31:07 <alise> obviously it could be done by a turing machine
16:31:14 <augur> ;)
16:31:16 <oerjan> augur: well the word "any" is ambiguous in english ;D
16:31:40 <augur> oerjan: *even one
16:32:18 <augur> its actually not ambiguous, tho. its a choice function, so it has properties that seem like "all" and properties that seem like "some"
16:33:09 <oerjan> it's ambiguous in that particular context
16:34:05 <augur> no, like i said, its not ambiguous, it's just a choice function which means that it simultaneously has properties of both universal and existential quantification
16:34:13 <AnMaster> # No optimizations:
16:34:13 <AnMaster> #CFLAGS = -O1 -g3 -march=pentium4 -mtune=k8 -falign-functions=16
16:34:13 <oerjan> it's also a weird word to norwegians, we don't really have any that work like that
16:34:14 <AnMaster> well
16:34:23 <oerjan> that i can recall
16:34:24 <AnMaster> that was an interesting definition of no optimisations
16:35:14 <oerjan> (any and some are both translated as "noe(n)", usually)
16:35:33 <AnMaster> The recommended optimisation flags for this are (no this is not cfunge!, nor am I involved in this project): -O3 -g -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe -march=core2 -msse4.1 -falign-functions=16 -funroll-loops -funit-at-a-time -minline-all-stringops -fno-trapping-math -fno-stack-protector -fno-exceptions -fno-rtti -funroll-loops -mpreferred-stack-boundary=4 -fno-strict-aliasing -Wreturn-type
16:36:58 <oerjan> -ftoo-many-flags
16:37:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, agreed. However, it is an x86 emulator. Those sometimes have special needs
16:37:31 <AnMaster> compared to "usual" programs I mean
16:37:52 <AnMaster> hm it fails to link with "undefined reference to <various libc string functions>"
16:40:26 * alise wonders what the relation to the continuum hypothesis with type theory is
16:40:37 <alise> I wonder if there are types with cardinality inbetween t and (t->bool)...
16:40:40 <AnMaster> okay it seems to be because it doesn't link to libc (duh)
16:40:48 -!- hiato has joined.
16:40:58 <AnMaster> it also uses a custom linker script as far as I can tell
16:42:10 <oerjan> alise: well of course there are, take a finite type
16:42:22 <alise> oerjan: I mean infinite t
16:42:23 <oerjan> if t has 3 elements, t -> bool has 8
16:42:28 <alise> (at least as big as the naturals)
16:42:44 <alise> because my definition of cardinality is based on it...
16:42:53 <oerjan> so the generalized continuum hypothesis, then
16:42:53 <alise> technically my beth numbers can only take naturals not ordinals atm though
16:43:03 <alise> yes. but what is its status in set theory?
16:43:11 <oerjan> independent, i think
16:43:17 <alise> er i mean
16:43:18 <alise> in type theory
16:43:29 <alise> I represent "x has cardinality beth n" (I've avoided aleph because beth is a closer match) by a bijection from x to Infin n
16:43:29 <oerjan> heck if i know ;D
16:43:36 <alise> where infin is repeated ->bools over the naturals
16:43:59 <alise> so of course this only lets you express all cardinalities if the generalised continuum hypothesis holds in set theory... it probably does though
16:44:04 <alise> or at least, is a fine axiom to add
16:44:17 <oerjan> i vaguely recall some result that says you can choose the beths to be a fairly free subset of the alphas
16:44:21 <oerjan> (in set theory)
16:44:25 <alise> I wonder how to represent ordinals; I'll need ordinally beth numbers sometime.
16:44:33 <alise> But beth n for natural n will do for now.
16:44:51 <oerjan> there are some restrictions, but a lot of leeway
16:45:02 <oerjan> well, *subclass
16:46:08 * alise can now write "nat [has cardinality] beth 0"
16:46:10 <alise> syntax, fuck yeah
16:46:47 <oerjan> alise: cantor normal form can get you a way above the naturals, at least
16:47:10 <oerjan> and is also cool :)
16:47:24 <alise> in set theory it can, nothing is certain in type theory :)
16:47:31 <alise> Theorem naturals_are_beth_zero : nat [has cardinality] beth 0.
16:47:33 <alise> apply infinite_cardinality.
16:47:33 <alise> compute.
16:47:33 <alise> exists (id (A:=nat)).
16:47:33 <alise> exists (id (A:=nat)).
16:47:33 <alise> auto.
16:47:37 <alise> Qed.
16:47:47 <alise> now to prove something more interesting, like option A adding 1 to A's cardinality
16:47:49 <oerjan> alise: well it's pretty certain you get ordinals out of it, i should think
16:47:53 <alise> which means I need cardinal arithmetic
16:48:07 <oerjan> cantor normal form is pretty constructive afaiac
16:48:30 <alise> A [has cardinality] n -> option A [has cardinality] succard n
16:48:38 <alise> You little succard.
16:50:09 <alise> oerjan: the annoying thing is I don't just need ordinal arithmetic
16:50:15 <alise> because I have both "finite n" and "beth n" cardinalities
16:50:20 <alise> so I need separate cardinality-adding functions
16:51:43 <oerjan> mhm
16:51:47 <oerjan> food ->
16:51:49 <alise> Theorem fin_n_has_cardinality_finite_n {n} : fin n [has cardinality] finite n.
16:52:02 <alise> in_coq_we_often_repeat_ourselves : In Coq, we often repeat ourselves.
17:15:33 <AnMaster> now THIS is strange. the thing work correctly when running under strace or under gdb, but not when running stand alone
17:15:41 <AnMaster> and no there is no core to analyse, it just exits
17:15:52 <AnMaster> oh and I need -f (follow forks) for it to work under strace
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17:22:56 <Sgeo> It is now legal for me to drink alcohol
17:23:12 <oerjan> shocking!
17:23:28 <oerjan> also, happy birthday
17:23:35 <Sgeo> Thank you!
17:26:01 <alise> yes, happy birthday!
17:26:05 <alise> I would have said it sooner but you hadn't spoken
17:26:07 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:26:16 <alise> also, don't drink too much booze!
17:26:44 <alise> also, geez, 21.
17:26:48 <alise> way too high drinking age
17:27:20 <oerjan> wait it's 21 for _all_ alcohol?
17:27:36 <oerjan> in norway it's 18 for non-distilled
17:27:59 <Gregor> Used to be ∞
17:28:19 <oerjan> what?
17:29:33 <Gregor> ... the drinking age.
17:29:41 <oerjan> oh unicode
17:30:19 <Gregor> If you can't read Unicode, you şūċķ.
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17:32:01 <hiato> Sgeo: happy birthday!
17:32:16 <oerjan> i can, i just have to go to the logs to do it ;)
17:32:35 <oerjan> and to do so i have to suspect the question marks actually aren't
17:32:54 <oerjan> hm...
17:33:09 <Gregor> Also, hm, drinking age is that high in Norway?
17:33:21 <Gregor> I thought in most of Europe, it was like non-distilled at 6 and distilled at 12.
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17:34:29 <oerjan> sheesh
17:34:47 <Sgeo> Thank you!
17:34:59 <oerjan> among european countries, norway is pretty conservative in some respects
17:35:02 <Sgeo> Thank you alise and hiato
17:35:31 <alise> Gregor: in the uk it is 16. i think
17:35:33 <alise> to go out & drink
17:35:36 <alise> at home it's 5.
17:35:41 <oerjan> i think our alcohol laws are the strictest in europe. the alcohol taxes _certainly_ are. ;)
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17:38:31 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Drinking_age_by_country.svg
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17:38:48 <oerjan> although the norwegian color is for distilled liquor
17:39:46 <oerjan> most are 18 or above
17:40:18 <oerjan> spain, italy and greece are lower, portugal isn't available
17:40:52 <oerjan> albania has no law, possibly
17:42:00 <hiato> cossovo?
17:42:15 <oerjan> too small to see
17:43:01 * oerjan tries a larger version
17:43:09 <oerjan> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Drinking_age_by_country.svg/2000px-Drinking_age_by_country.svg.png
17:43:40 <oerjan> kosovo doesn't seem to be separate from serbia in that map, afaict
17:44:18 <hiato> heh, ah well
17:44:21 <oerjan> (which is blue for 18+)
17:44:44 <hiato> Yeah, looks like one ountry there
17:47:36 * oerjan sees an island east of madagascar marked as orange
17:53:22 <oerjan> (which is not one of the listed colors)
18:08:15 <alise> anyone want to think about SPECIALISATION ?! 111puie4t
18:09:49 <oerjan> not especially.
18:11:35 <oerjan> HERETIC UNHERETIC
18:15:46 <alise> Retrotheohereticians.
18:15:58 <alise> People who are heretical with their opinions about past theoretical works.
18:16:58 <oerjan> well it's all greek to me
18:20:49 <alise> Retrotheohereticians sounds like something out of some really bad nerdcore.
18:22:30 <oerjan> you're aware that -theo- is not the same as -theor- ?
18:24:44 <alise> >_<
18:24:47 <alise> SHADDUP
18:25:10 * AnMaster curses bitrot.
18:26:28 <oerjan> the program's a bit rotten
18:26:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, quite, I'm installing ubuntu hardy in a chroot now, there are some indications that will work
18:30:27 <alise> Ubuntu: BITROTTEN
18:30:48 <Sgeo> What, exactly, is comex's involvement with iPhone stuff?
18:31:02 <comex> cake.
18:31:03 <alise> what do you mean
18:31:04 <alise> "his involvement"
18:31:28 <oerjan> comex: you have been lied to
18:31:36 <comex> oerjan: by whom? :p
18:31:40 <alise> Sgeo: you mean that he's in #iphone-dev?
18:31:50 <alise> presumably he has an iphone, and either jailbreaks it (probably) or uses the proper SDK (unlikely)
18:31:51 <oerjan> i dunno
18:31:59 <Sgeo> I notice that on Twitter, he's always talking and being mkentioned in iPhone related stuff
18:32:04 <alise> are you trying to get assurance that buying an iPhone is just fine and you can sleep at night with the recent TOS changes? :)
18:32:14 <comex> my involvement is that I'm making a jailbreak.
18:32:20 <alise> gee i guess he works for apple
18:32:22 <alise> on the iphone
18:32:26 <alise> because people talk to him about iphones
18:32:27 <alise> it's logical
18:32:33 <alise> can't be just some random guy fucking with an iphone
18:32:53 <Sgeo> alise, it seemed more like a random guy _doing something important_ with an iPhone
18:33:08 <alise> comex is practically world-famous
18:33:25 <comex> x.0
18:33:32 <alise> you know it's true
18:36:54 <alise> hmmmmmmmm
18:36:59 <alise> can you get transparent touchsurfaces?
18:37:01 <alise> a touchscreen without the screen
18:38:17 <Sgeo> Better yet would be a touchscreen that's transparent in parts that aren't displaying anything
18:38:55 <alise> my idea was to put an eink display behind it
18:39:00 <alise> but yours would make that even better
18:39:03 <alise> but no
18:39:07 <alise> because you can't really have selective backlight
18:39:08 <alise> OLED, perhaps
18:39:13 <alise> with transparent slots when there's no pixels or something
18:39:15 <alise> with eink underneath
18:44:08 <Sgeo> Colored eInk sounds fun
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18:44:57 <alise> Transparent touch-sensitive panel - Patent 4700025
18:44:58 <alise> by M Hatayama - 1987 - Cited by 9 - Related articles
18:44:58 <alise> The transparent touch-sensitive panel of claim 1, wherein said uneven surface has 100 to 10000 protrusions of 0.5 to 5 μm high per cm2. ...
18:44:58 <alise> www.freepatentsonline.com/4700025.html
18:45:01 <alise> Patents, darn, and old, so hmm.
18:45:17 <alise> I want a capacitative, transparent touch surface.
18:45:23 <pikhq> comex: Would you happen to have done anything on the Wii?
18:45:43 <comex> yes, that too
18:47:00 <pikhq> Nice work on Bannerbomb.
18:48:49 <comex> thanks. :p
18:55:50 <alise> i jailbroke this channel
19:01:08 <alise> YOU GUYS DON'T BELIEVE ME
19:01:13 <alise> i totally overflowed its fuzucking buffer yeah.
19:02:20 * pikhq will overflow your horse's name
19:03:02 <oerjan> *mane
19:03:10 <pikhq> No, name.
19:03:29 <oerjan> but it has such a nice flowing mane!
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19:11:53 <alise> hi ais523
19:12:33 <ais523> hi
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19:14:37 <alise> ais523: any esolang news?
19:14:42 <alise> bsmntbombdood: are you still using that ubercomputer?
19:15:00 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=17445&oldid=17417 this is utterly pointless
19:15:02 <ais523> alise: not really
19:15:04 <alise> someone revert it
19:15:09 <alise> i would but i'm god.
19:15:14 <alise> (so it wouldn't be fair)
19:15:51 <bsmntbombdood> ubercomputer?
19:16:20 <alise> bsmntbombdood: the one i specced up and you bought
19:16:33 <bsmntbombdood> yes
19:16:37 <alise> haha
19:16:40 <alise> has it broken yet :)
19:16:55 <bsmntbombdood> got hit by lightning the other day
19:17:04 <alise> i don't /entirely/ believe you...
19:17:16 <bsmntbombdood> asus replaced the mobo so it's all good
19:17:20 <alise> haha wow
19:17:21 <alise> is the quantum coprocessor still accessing the qubit ram without errors?
19:17:57 <bsmntbombdood> i really think i should have gone with dual quantum coprocessors
19:18:10 <alise> yeah
19:18:32 <alise> the newest pi calculating algorithms have to factor a large number /and/ do a reverse lookup in a database simultaneously
19:18:33 <alise> so i can see how that would be a problem
19:18:42 <bsmntbombdood> i'm actually buying a new hsf now
19:19:00 <alise> too loud?
19:19:11 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
19:19:12 <ais523> hsf = high speed fan?
19:19:13 <alise> I'd buy a new heatsink at the same time, because then you could run the fan a lot slower too
19:19:17 <alise> heat sink fan
19:19:28 <ais523> also, where do you get quantum coprocessors?
19:19:29 <alise> quiet fan + good heatsink = $50, $60?
19:19:37 <alise> ais523: It's a secret.
19:19:40 <ais523> fair enough
19:19:48 <bsmntbombdood> i really want megahalems but i don't think they'll clear all the ram slots
19:19:48 <alise> you need a big case for the cooling system though
19:19:53 <alise> (and a government grant)
19:19:59 <alise> bsmntbombdood: yeah the megahalems are massive
19:20:00 <bsmntbombdood> and 2 pounds hanging off my mobo worries me
19:20:13 <alise> well they are very securely tightened, but yes, they're crazy
19:20:33 <alise> you can get mid-size heatsinks though, and unless you're obsessive about noise like I am it should be just fine
19:20:40 <bsmntbombdood> it does look like people have used thermalight ultra-120s with this board though
19:20:56 <alise> i still haven't bought mine btw :P
19:21:03 <alise> concentrating on moving country first of course.
19:22:49 <bsmntbombdood> it sounds like both coolers can be made super quiet
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19:24:59 <alise> bsmntbombdood: if you're going for tranquility you'll want to get a quieter PSU, too; and maybe even replace the case fans
19:25:03 <bsmntbombdood> going to replace the case fans too, should be able to make it pretty quiet
19:25:26 <bsmntbombdood> psu is already the quietest part
19:26:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:26:38 <alise> what os are you running on it? and are you actually utilising the computational power? :P
19:27:21 <bsmntbombdood> debian, and not usually
19:28:06 <alise> wonder what's the most powerful solid state machine you could do...
19:28:12 <alise> would be unnerving, not knowing whether it's on :)
19:28:18 <alise> solid state psu is the hardest thing there
19:28:20 <alise> they just don't make them
19:29:22 <bsmntbombdood> peltiers are solid state
19:29:52 <alise> http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/psus-501-600/x-xp600-fl "mostly fanless"
19:30:12 <alise> http://www.scan.co.uk/Product.aspx?WebProductID=644060&source=froogle again "mostly fanless"
19:30:24 <alise> "The NightJar Fanless PSU series is available in two flavors, 300W and 450W. I'll be reviewing the Nightjar 450W Zero dBA Fanless Power Supply (SST-ST45NF) which peaks at 500W and this is more than enough power for a HTPC or a silent gaming build. This PSU uses solid state Capacitors which results in cleaner more reliable power than cheap capacitors found in many other PSUs on the market. The housing is made from thick aluminum and it acts as a heastink si
19:30:25 <alise> nce this PSU does have a fan to keep it cool. It also has plenty of ventilation holes, but it's crucial to have excellent case ventilation to insure this PSU gets adequate cooling. Watch the video to find out more."
19:30:28 <alise> no actual links though, helpful
19:32:59 <bsmntbombdood> my psu is on silent pc review's recommended list
19:33:02 <bsmntbombdood> shouldn't have a problem there
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19:34:04 <pikhq> alise: You can actually get PSUs that use an external brick. ;)
19:34:22 <alise> bsmntbombdood: ah which is it
19:34:28 <alise> not the nexus 420 one is it?
19:34:51 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:35:02 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
19:35:02 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/Coolermaster_Silent_Pro_M700W
19:35:24 <alise> 700w is a bit excessive for your stuff.
19:35:41 <alise> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=silverstone_nightjar_450&num=1 hey an /actual/ fanless psu
19:35:42 <alise> and 450w too
19:36:05 <pikhq> Mmm.
19:36:11 <bsmntbombdood> not really
19:38:36 <pikhq> Man. There's an x86 emulator in Java... That appears to work at tolerable speeds.
19:38:39 <alise> nah
19:38:39 <alise> your system will consume like 550w tops i bet
19:38:48 <bsmntbombdood> alise: exactly
19:39:03 <alise> pikhq: yep
19:39:06 <pikhq> (20% of full-speed. Which seems slow until you realise that 200MHz is still quite usable for many OSes.)
19:39:15 <pikhq> s/200/400/
19:39:16 <pikhq> XD
19:39:50 <alise> so guys
19:39:51 <alise> OISC
19:39:52 <alise> (a,b,c) means:
19:39:53 <alise> [c] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:39:53 <alise> [0] := [0] + 1 + ([c] == 0 ? 1 : 0);
19:39:53 <alise> [0] is ip
19:39:58 <alise> | is bitwise or, ~ is complement
19:40:02 <alise> you guys think this is tc?
19:40:05 <alise> semantics in english:
19:40:31 <alise> (a,b,c) means take bitwise OR [a] and [b]; then put its complement in [c]. if [c] is then 0, skip the next instruction.
19:40:32 <Deewiant> Probably
19:40:59 <alise> Then what about this:
19:41:09 <alise> (a,b) means take bitwise OR [a] and [b]; then put its complement in [b]. if [b] is then 0, skip the next instruction.
19:41:11 <bsmntbombdood> people have used megahalems passive on i7s
19:41:36 <pikhq> "Skip the next instruction"? Well, that'd certainly be a *pain* to do actual jumps with.
19:41:52 <Deewiant> pikhq: You can always modify [0] directly with (foo,bar,0)
19:41:55 <alise> RSSB does it, pikhq
19:42:00 <alise> and what Deewiant said
19:42:08 <alise> I might just remove the [0] bit
19:42:14 <alise> but what about the two-instruction one?
19:42:18 <pikhq> Deewiant: I'm not saying it'd be impossible. Just a pain.
19:42:25 <alise> (a,b) means take bitwise OR [a] and [b]; then put its complement in [b]. if [b] is then 0, skip the next instruction.
19:42:29 <Deewiant> Well, OISCs tend to be a pain anyway
19:42:33 <alise> I think this should be about as TC as the three-instruction one.
19:43:03 <pikhq> True.
19:44:35 <alise> so here's the ultimate version
19:44:36 <alise> (a,b) means:
19:44:44 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:44:47 <alise> [0] := [0] + 1;
19:44:49 <alise> where [0] is ip
19:44:53 <alise> is /this/ tc?
19:45:21 <Deewiant> Probably as TC as the original (a,b,c) one
19:45:31 <alise> Which is probably TC.
19:45:35 <alise> So two layers of probably.
19:45:38 <alise> So about half the probability.
19:45:41 <Gregor> http://www.kfc.com/doubledown/ GOD BLESS AMERICA
19:45:44 <Deewiant> alise: Yeah :-P
19:45:57 <alise> But that's still 50%!
19:45:59 <alise> Or so!
19:46:02 <alise> Well actually a bit less!
19:46:05 <Deewiant> alise: But, if you'd posted only that one, I'd've said only "Probably".
19:46:08 <alise> But do you believe that one is TC?
19:46:13 <alise> Deewiant: Hmm.
19:46:16 <alise> You should be more specific :P
19:46:23 <Deewiant> Well, I don't know
19:46:48 <Deewiant> It looks like it might be TC, but I'm not an OISC expert
19:47:03 <alise> Guess I just have to try and write programs in it.
19:47:39 <Deewiant> The easiest proof would probably implementing a known-TC OISC
19:47:48 <alise> Well, let's see; the only way to jump in this would be setting b=0.
19:47:50 <alise> Then we have
19:47:56 <alise> [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]);
19:48:00 <alise> [0] := [0] + 1;
19:48:00 <alise> i.e.
19:48:03 <alise> [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]) + 1;
19:48:18 <alise> ~(a|b) = (~a)&(~b) right?
19:48:25 <alise> DeMorgan's laws surely apply to bitwise operations.
19:48:35 <Deewiant> Aye
19:48:40 <alise> [0] := ((~[a]) & (~[0])) + 1
19:48:41 <oerjan> alise: shouldn't you use [0] := [0] + 2; if an instruction has two operands?
19:48:43 <alise> Well, that is troubling.
19:48:49 <alise> oerjan: Er, yes, thanks.
19:49:01 <alise> Anyway, so, this doesn't seem very helpful
19:49:34 <oerjan> heh, to do a jump you need to know the current ip
19:49:39 <alise> If we say that [a] is ~x, then we have ~(x | [0]) I think
19:49:54 <alise> oerjan: well you can do that of course
19:49:55 <Deewiant> You always know the current ip
19:49:58 <oerjan> and you can only jump to locations that are a subset of the complement bits
19:50:01 <Deewiant> Your code just isn't position-independent
19:50:11 <alise> oerjan: that's the issue, really
19:50:35 <oerjan> oh, but that can be fixed by going via ip 0!
19:50:37 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
19:50:45 <ais523> hi AnMaster
19:50:46 <alise> oerjan: haha how
19:50:50 <oerjan> er oops
19:50:53 <alise> oh clever
19:50:58 <alise> no it's okay we can move the ip
19:51:00 <AnMaster> ais523, do you happen to know any software that lets me profile TLB misses?
19:51:02 <alise> to say [-1] = [big]
19:51:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not even sure what your question means
19:51:19 <ais523> I'm aware of profiling, but not of TLB misses
19:51:27 <AnMaster> ais523, you know of TLB?
19:51:31 <ais523> no
19:51:37 <ais523> at least, not that acronym
19:51:46 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, you know that the kernel keeps page mappings?
19:51:46 <oerjan> um wait
19:52:00 <ais523> AnMaster: obviously, what else could?
19:52:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and the CPU uses them to find the physical page
19:52:14 <ais523> and that seems a plausible feature for modern CPUs
19:52:16 <oerjan> a jump to -1 will be hard unless you are already at 0
19:52:21 <AnMaster> ais523, TLB cache is used to cache the page mappings
19:52:26 <alise> whatever, let's just say the ip is at ip
19:52:27 <ais523> hmm, OK
19:52:31 <alise> so [ip]
19:52:37 <alise> now the problem is
19:52:37 <ais523> surely, whether that gets hit or missed will depend on what other programs are running?
19:52:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I want to profile something to find out if hugetlb would help
19:52:44 <alise> how do we write the jumper at location 0?
19:52:50 <AnMaster> (which is an extension to make each page larger)
19:53:22 <AnMaster> because that means fewer TLB entries, which means more memory can be handled with the TLB entries in the cache
19:53:40 <oerjan> if you are at location 0, then (a,ip) will set [ip] = ~ a
19:53:46 <AnMaster> ais523, and iirc they are flushed at context switch
19:53:51 <alise> using which format oerjan?
19:53:54 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:53:54 <alise> [0] := [0] + 1;
19:53:54 <alise> ?
19:53:58 <ais523> alise: your OISC operation seems to be NAND
19:53:59 <oerjan> yes
19:54:02 <AnMaster> ais523, because otherwise you would be able to access those other entries
19:54:05 <alise> ais523: no, NOR
19:54:12 <alise> oerjan: ok.
19:54:19 <alise> so, let's call 0 "jmp"
19:54:24 <alise> so the jumping code is at [jmp]
19:54:32 <alise> now let's also call the location it uses for "loc"
19:54:39 <ais523> alise: yep, good point
19:54:43 <alise> oerjan: how do we jump to 0?
19:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw I'm currently messing with a ubuntu hardy chroot due to bitrot...
19:56:52 <ais523> how do you get bitrot nowadays? use a computer more than 20 years old?
19:56:56 <oerjan> alise: darn :D
19:57:05 <oerjan> the post-increment makes that _hard_
19:57:14 <AnMaster> ais523, try to run something that doesn't compile on >gcc-4.2 and needs an older libc
19:57:19 <alise> oerjan: should it be pre-increment?
19:57:23 <oerjan> let's put the jump at 2 instead
19:57:23 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and that uses a custom linker script and doesn't link to libc at all
19:57:24 <ais523> AnMaster: is that bitrot, though?
19:57:31 <ais523> or just massively-old-technology?
19:57:39 <oerjan> alise: hm...
19:57:50 <alise> how can we jump from two??
19:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is an cycle accurate x86/x86_64 simulator, which *should* be able to give me some number for the TLB misses if only I get it working...
19:58:25 <ais523> AnMaster: ouch, cycle-accuracy is likely to be incredibly slow
19:58:27 <pikhq> ... Cycle accurate x86 simulator?
19:58:30 <pikhq> They exist?
19:58:34 <oerjan> alise: we can jump from two to any address whose second lsb is zero
19:58:47 <alise> oerjan: well ideally we'd have arbitrary jumps :-)
19:58:48 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't it compile on newer GCC?
19:58:54 <ais523> pikhq: well, you could obviously just throw the VHDL from an x86 processor onto a VHDL simulator, if you had it
19:58:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, but it isn't too slow, plus it can be setup to run only those functions you are interested in that way
19:58:58 <alise> surely this would work?
19:58:58 <pikhq> ais523: I think it telling that it takes a fairly recent computer to do cycle-accurate SNES emulation on a modern machine. :)
19:58:58 <alise> [0] := [0] + 1;
19:58:59 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:58:59 <ais523> so I'm pretty sure Intel and AMD have one
19:59:01 <oerjan> alise: that is _only_ possible from 0
19:59:02 <alise> maybe?
19:59:05 <AnMaster> and run the rest natively
19:59:08 <alise> oerjan: yes, so?
19:59:19 <alise> [0] := [0] + 1;
19:59:19 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:59:20 <ais523> pikhq: that doesn't surprise me at all
19:59:23 <alise> could we jump to 0 with this I wonder
19:59:26 <pikhq> ... "on a modern machine"? rm that.
19:59:29 <oerjan> alise: 2, not 1
19:59:31 <alise> [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]);
19:59:33 <alise> where [0] > 1
19:59:33 <ais523> hmm, is x86 or the SNES older?
19:59:34 <Sgeo> "cycle accurate"?
19:59:36 <alise> er right
19:59:41 <alise> [0] := [0] + 2;
19:59:43 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:59:44 <alise> [0]
19:59:45 <alise> er
19:59:47 <pikhq> ais523: Funny thing is, you need cycle-accurate SNES emulation to do it right.
19:59:48 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me in the least if AnMaster's simulator actually simulated an 8086
19:59:54 <alise> so we have [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]) where [0] >= 2
19:59:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Emulating each individual clock cycle.
19:59:56 <ais523> pikhq: yep, due to lag effects
19:59:59 <AnMaster> ais523, wrong, it does SSE2
20:00:05 <AnMaster> ais523, and x86_64
20:00:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think it does SSE4 or later, not sure about SSE3
20:00:21 <Sgeo> What's the alternative?
20:00:22 <oerjan> alise: a and b are locations from the ip before increment, right?
20:00:31 <pikhq> There were a large number of weird things that happened on SNES. For instance, you could read the result of a division *before it was done*.
20:00:46 <alise> oerjan: yes. i'll write it out more precisely
20:01:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, similar to delay/force in Scheme?
20:01:14 <Sgeo> Erm, wrong thouyght
20:01:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: No.
20:01:17 <alise> [0] := [0] + 2;
20:01:18 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
20:01:30 <alise> pikhq: partially computed?
20:01:36 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
20:01:41 <Sgeo> Similar to getting a promise of a result before the result is computed, and ... hm?
20:01:43 <alise> wow
20:01:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it is also supposed to emulate cache misses correctly. Checking the mailing list there are some @amd.com addresses there so I do believe they have some experts involved
20:02:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also, for completely unknown reasons it seems to require running as root. Not even setting all the capabilities available as file caps works...
20:02:38 <AnMaster> which is extremely strange
20:03:18 <pikhq> Also multiplications.
20:03:27 <oerjan> ok then it would be possible to jump to 0 with say (#-1,ip)
20:03:45 <oerjan> (# for pointer to constant)
20:03:45 <ais523> hmm, has anyone ever created a non-tape-based OISC?
20:04:15 <oerjan> and at 0 you could jump anywhere with (#~target,ip)
20:05:03 <alise> oerjan: ok, so clearly we need a memory location L such that ~[L] = target
20:05:12 <alise> the question is... can we even assign this to things we want :-)
20:05:12 <hiato> AnMaster: is this that Jasmin sim?
20:05:20 <alise> because the /last jump location/ will still be there!!!
20:05:23 <AnMaster> hiato, never heard of that. This one is called ptlsim
20:05:45 <oerjan> alise: um [a] isn't changed, a locations are pretty stable
20:06:02 <AnMaster> hiato, googling Jasmin sim doesn't give any useful results either
20:06:30 <AnMaster> great, ptlsim crashed on cfunge: "Assert false failed in ooocore.cpp:1056 (bool OutOfOrderModel::ThreadContext::handle_exception()) at 6484964 cycles, 6484964 iterations, 6597152 user commits"
20:06:36 <hiato> AnMaster: http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~jasmin/
20:06:52 <alise> oerjan: yes but
20:07:02 <alise> 0 is (ntarg, ip)
20:07:06 <alise> [ntarg] must be ~target
20:07:18 <alise> so before our (-1,ip) (to get to 0), we need to set [ntarg] to ~target
20:07:21 <alise> can we do this, generally?
20:07:37 <AnMaster> hiato, that seems pretty useless for doing full simulations
20:07:52 <AnMaster> to quote that page "While not implementing all the functionality of a modern Intel Processor its tutorials allow you to try and understand the basic commands and structures of assembler code."
20:08:04 <hiato> AnMaster: I only caught the last bit of this, so yes, if that,s what you're trying
20:08:06 <oerjan> alise: (#-1, ntarg) (#target, ntarg)
20:08:12 <oerjan> i think
20:08:16 <alise> oerjan: cool
20:08:21 <AnMaster> hiato, I'm trying to profile TLB misses yes
20:08:27 <AnMaster> so I need fairly accurate and detailed stuff
20:08:49 <hiato> AnMaster: Haha, good luck
20:09:04 <AnMaster> hiato, ptlsim is *supposed* to be able to do that
20:09:12 <AnMaster> it is just it is a PITA to get it working
20:09:17 <AnMaster> hiato, severe bitrot
20:09:23 <AnMaster> I'm in a hardy chroot atm
20:09:34 <hiato> AnMaster: Actually, let me know how this works out, genuinely interested
20:09:38 <alise> oerjan: so
20:09:40 <hiato> Ah
20:09:42 <alise> macro [jmp X] := {ones loc; X loc; ones ip}
20:09:51 <alise> and at the start of the program
20:09:59 <alise> loc ip
20:10:05 <alise> then later in the program
20:10:08 <AnMaster> hiato, also it doesn't seem to read the config file (it doesn't do cmd line args, you have to create ~/.ptlsim/full/path/to/executable.conf and put the flags there
20:10:10 <alise> [jmp label]
20:10:13 <ais523> ooh, Unicode works in file names in this OS
20:10:22 <ais523> this is clearly a good way to create unique extensions for esolangs
20:10:26 <hiato> AnMaster: lolwut? Where did you find this thing?
20:10:34 <AnMaster> (and they are in -this style -so why -they -arent -read -fromcommand line I don't know(
20:10:42 <AnMaster> s/($/)/
20:10:48 <hiato> heh
20:10:48 <alise> oerjan: so we can do unconditional jumps. But can we do conditional jumps?
20:10:54 <alise> we can't just do arithmetic on the jump location...
20:11:01 <hiato> ais523: unicode exts ftw!
20:11:03 <AnMaster> hiato, from an llvm.org publication that mentioned using it
20:11:14 <alise> ais523: which os?
20:11:17 <AnMaster> hiato, there is a full system variant of this that integrates with Xen
20:11:20 <oerjan> alise: let's say we have our flag as a 0,1 value somewhere
20:11:21 <ais523> alise: Ubuntu Jaunty
20:11:23 <AnMaster> I'm trying the user space variant
20:11:23 <hiato> AnMaster: Ah, cant say I frequent their lists
20:11:24 <oerjan> in flag
20:11:29 <ais523> so presumably it's an ext3 or ext2 feature
20:11:31 <ais523> maybe even ext1
20:11:42 <AnMaster> hiato, nah it wasn't their mailing list, but one of the articles they put on their site
20:11:50 <alise> oerjan: said.
20:11:51 <pikhq> Foo.語?
20:11:54 <hiato> AnMaster: oh, I see
20:11:55 * alise is writing this down, btw
20:12:03 <alise> ais523: all ext just store things raw
20:12:07 <alise> all apart from \0 or /
20:12:15 <oerjan> then we can jump to either of two consecutive locations - hm maybe 0,1 is a bad idea
20:12:16 <ais523> the official file extension for DownRight is now .↳
20:12:18 <alise> so the encoding is just how it's mounted
20:12:19 <ais523> alise: ah, OK
20:12:19 <AnMaster> now to figure out how to get it to read the cmd line
20:12:37 <hiato> ais523: Wikified?
20:12:39 <AnMaster> ah okay, so sudo doesn't set HOME=/root
20:12:42 <AnMaster> that may be the issue
20:12:44 <hiato> AnMaster: Re-write :P
20:12:44 <ais523> hiato: not yet
20:12:47 <alise> oerjan: maybe 0,-1
20:12:51 <alise> we should really say ~0 instead of -1.
20:13:02 <ais523> given that a DownRight program is conceptually a rectangular grid with arbitrary-size cells, I need to come up with a file format
20:13:13 <ais523> I could make it XML just to annoy people, but I don't really want to
20:13:27 <hiato> so make it MSXML!
20:13:33 <AnMaster> hiato, ?
20:13:42 <AnMaster> oh hah
20:13:47 <ais523> hiato: hmm, you mean their table representation?
20:13:47 <hiato> :)
20:13:48 <AnMaster> hiato, No I'm not messing with that code
20:13:56 <hiato> ais523: Yep ;)
20:13:58 <ais523> that actually isn't a bad idea, if aiming for sheer horribleness
20:13:59 <AnMaster> hiato, did you see above about it using a custom linker script?
20:14:04 <ais523> but really I want something simple
20:14:05 <AnMaster> hiato, and not linking system libc
20:14:08 <Sgeo> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/140
20:14:16 <alise> ais523: simple
20:14:17 <AnMaster> hiato, oh and needing gcc-4.1 or 4.2, no other versions work
20:14:18 <alise> CSV! >:D
20:14:24 <hiato> AnMaster: Oh? Well that's when I walk away
20:14:26 <alise> ais523: no actually what i'd do is use the unicode box drawing characters
20:14:30 <alise> that'd be very pretty
20:14:31 <ais523> haha
20:14:34 <AnMaster> hiato, :D
20:14:38 <alise> ais523: failing that, | - and +
20:14:40 <hiato> ais523: Ah well, for another project perhaps
20:14:41 <alise> good ol' boxes
20:14:49 <ais523> CSV is probably the most plausible method, it would at least be easy to parse given what the content of the cells are
20:14:51 <oerjan> alise: ah yes 0,-1 is good
20:14:56 <AnMaster> hiato, and yes I'm in this hardy chroot because of modern libc versions (and modern binutils) breaking it
20:14:59 <alise> ais523: or if you want real minimalism, have two extra chars
20:15:00 <ais523> even better, you could make it flexible
20:15:02 <AnMaster> at least now I get it to do *something*
20:15:08 <alise> / and \
20:15:09 <AnMaster> under jaunty it just did *nothing*
20:15:11 <ais523> D and R for down and right are the commands
20:15:13 <alise> / goes in top left corner of cell, \ top right
20:15:19 <alise> so
20:15:20 <AnMaster> (so, miscompiled rather than compile error)
20:15:34 <ais523> the first thing that isn't D or R that's encountered is column separator
20:15:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:15:38 <ais523> the second thing is row separtor
20:15:40 <ais523> *separator
20:15:53 <ais523> and row separators are ignored unless at least one column separator is encountered between them
20:15:54 <alise> ais523:
20:15:58 <alise> look at this:
20:16:01 <hiato> AnMaster: Vaporware. Walk. Away.
20:16:05 <alise> sec
20:16:09 <ais523> that would work for both CSV and Unicode box drawing
20:16:23 <AnMaster> hiato, not vaporware, it seems to work now
20:16:39 <AnMaster> hiato, it actually gave me tlb stats here
20:16:41 <AnMaster> yay
20:16:55 <hiato> AnMaster: c'est ne pa possible
20:17:11 <ais523> hmm, time to go home, I'll have to discover what alise's great idea is later, or else logread
20:17:16 <alise> wait!
20:17:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:17:19 <alise> ais523: i'm about to paste it!
20:17:20 <alise> oh fucking hell
20:17:21 <hiato> lol
20:17:23 <alise> i just did all that work
20:17:34 <AnMaster> hiato, sure is, but a PITA to get there
20:17:52 <alise> UNGRATEFUL LOG-READING AIS523: http://pastie.org/941753.txt?key=me9yjscxo1usw2ikcaxba
20:17:54 <alise> code, and table representing it
20:17:59 <alise> key: / is top-left, \ is top-right
20:18:07 <AnMaster> hiato, it is almost as bad as opengenera...
20:18:08 <alise> from this, we can infer all the table cells of arbtirary size, intermingling
20:18:21 <AnMaster> (in setup stuff I mean)
20:18:25 <alise> because we know that the first character is the one after /, then the column \ is in delimits the last column for all the lines, and also the last line
20:18:35 <alise> plus, it's pretty
20:18:37 <alise> also, I fucked up that table
20:18:39 <hiato> AnMaster: wth is opengenera?
20:18:49 <alise> lisp machine emulator, hiato.
20:19:09 <oerjan> alise: i see some problems with this nor language - there is no simple way to access bits not mentioned in the program, unlimited memory is going to be _hard_, maybe impossible
20:19:10 <hiato> Wouldn't know. Unlike most here, I am not a masochist
20:19:11 <alise> LOG-READING AIS523: revised version - http://pastie.org/941754.txt?key=63e6jwcvawa5kfcjiuuoyg
20:19:16 <AnMaster> hiato, lisp machine thingy
20:19:32 <alise> oerjan: hmm, how can't you access bits not in the program?
20:19:37 <alise> it's just a matter of storing them in a norable format
20:19:45 <alise> hiato: lisp machines are nice!
20:19:46 <AnMaster> well not lisp machine, since it ran on other hardware
20:20:03 <AnMaster> hiato, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_%28operating_system%29
20:20:04 <alise> no it didn't
20:20:07 <alise> it doesn't emulate the mac one
20:20:10 <alise> !sh echo it doesn't emulate the mac one
20:20:10 <Sgeo> Lisp machines don't run Scheme, do they?
20:20:15 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.5076: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
20:20:15 <AnMaster> now opengenera is a program to run that on modern linux
20:20:22 <alise> !sh echo "it doesn't emulate the mac one"
20:20:22 <EgoBot> it doesn't emulate the mac one
20:20:29 <oerjan> alise: by "in the program" i mean _mentioned_ in the program
20:20:36 <alise> wonder if he's already wised up and ignored egobot
20:20:46 <alise> oerjan: ah, because we cannot dereference locations
20:20:53 <oerjan> yep
20:20:58 <AnMaster> iirc opengenera emulates the one for alpha or such, forgot the details
20:21:00 <alise> what about [b] := ~[[a] | [b]];
20:21:09 <alise> that's one extra dereference before ~ing
20:21:36 <AnMaster> anyway, it needs a complicated setup so you will basically ruin the host system (thus do it in a virtual machine), and it broke with modern ubuntu versions
20:21:42 <AnMaster> forgot why exactly
20:21:56 <hiato> alise: Can you give a quick summary of where this OISC is at?
20:22:04 <alise> hiato: in here :P
20:22:13 <alise> hiato: basically the idea is to have it based on a logical operation
20:22:14 <alise> bitwise
20:22:15 <oerjan> alise: if the program contains no values outside -128, 127 and is also stored in there then the _only_ way to get outside is by running off the edge - and we _cannot_ initialize the outside memory first
20:22:19 <hiato> AnMaster: You lost me at the word lisp ;)
20:22:26 <oerjan> *-128 .. 127
20:22:29 <hiato> alise: ok
20:22:34 <AnMaster> hiato, and the complex setup included stuff like nfs and ntp to localhost iirc
20:22:52 <AnMaster> hiato, you can ask alise for more details, iirc once had it working too
20:22:54 <alise> oerjan: ouch. why that range?
20:23:25 <pikhq> alise: 8-bit twos complement
20:23:26 <oerjan> alise: it's the set of integers for which all bits past the eighth are equal
20:23:37 <alise> pikhq: I didn't say 8bit though
20:23:58 <oerjan> alise: it was just an example, -65536 .. 65535 would have the same property
20:24:08 <oerjan> and -2^n .. 2^n-1 in general
20:24:11 <pikhq> Yuh.
20:24:23 <alise> right
20:24:35 <alise> oerjan: but more dereferencing wouldn't fix it, would it?
20:24:52 <oerjan> alise: you cannot dereference something you cannot mention
20:25:03 <alise> i mean in the instruction set
20:25:04 <alise> say
20:25:18 <alise> [b] := [~([a] | [b])]
20:25:19 <alise> or even
20:25:23 <alise> [b] := ~[[a] | [b]]
20:26:00 <Sgeo> <3 Calculus the Easy Way
20:26:34 <oerjan> alise: if you are going to get outside the range, then something inside the range must refer to something outside it, _or_ you must run off the edge and have the part outside preinitialized
20:26:45 <alise> (finite) calculus isn't hard!
20:26:46 <oerjan> alise: essentially you need an infinite memory setup
20:26:58 <alise> oerjan: heh, like the 2,3 tm
20:27:03 <oerjan> yeah
20:27:12 <AnMaster> hiato, you want to hear something really scary: Even though this thing links no standard libraries, it uses C++. It has it's own subset of STL included. And parts of klibc
20:27:18 <alise> how complex does the setup need to be, I wonder?
20:27:20 <alise> presumably sub-tc
20:27:30 <Sgeo> There's a newer edition? o.O
20:27:31 <AnMaster> this STL is not the GNU STL either
20:27:40 <AnMaster> it seems to be a custom thing
20:27:50 <oerjan> alise: probably not that hard
20:27:59 <AnMaster> which is not completely compatible (different name space for example)
20:28:03 <alise> oerjan: would it be easier with nand?
20:28:07 <alise> an infinite memory setup is kinda lame
20:29:29 <hiato> AnMaster: wutlol? srsly? This thing is messed up man
20:29:53 <oerjan> alise: nand and nor are essentially the same here i think
20:29:55 <Sgeo> ...different name space?
20:30:05 <AnMaster> Sgeo, not "std"
20:30:07 <alise> oerjan: mm
20:30:09 <AnMaster> indeed
20:30:10 <Sgeo> ...you can't possibly mean what I think you.. damn
20:30:12 <AnMaster> hiato, and yes
20:30:16 <alise> what about or/and without the not? I guess that's even worse
20:30:25 <alise> AnMaster: that's not strange
20:30:27 <alise> even EA do that for their games
20:30:31 <alise> the stl is slow and sucky
20:30:41 <oerjan> alise: it's really about the fact that there is no interference between different bits in your operations, except for the ip increment
20:30:42 <AnMaster> hiato, but I have been unable to locate anything else to profile TLB misses with
20:30:58 <alise> oerjan: yeah... ugh
20:30:59 <alise> and this was going so well
20:31:04 <AnMaster> hiato, and I *need* to know where and if I should try to use hugetlb pages in this program
20:31:07 <oerjan> and all bitwise boolean operations have that property
20:31:07 <AnMaster> it *might* help
20:31:11 <alise> oerjan: I assume the original, check-if-0-and-skip, three argument one is better?
20:31:12 <alise> or the same, maybe...
20:31:24 <AnMaster> but premature optimisation is bad
20:31:44 <oerjan> alise: was that also bitwise? if so probably the same
20:31:46 <hiato> AnMaster: yeah, I cant say I've really been looking, and nothing springs to mind... pen and paper? :P But seriously, I'm not sure, but best of luck
20:32:00 <alise> oerjan: yes;
20:32:01 <alise> [c] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
20:32:01 <alise> [0] := [0] + 3 + ([c] == 0 ? 2 : 0);
20:32:13 <Deewiant> s/2/3/
20:32:17 <Deewiant> (?)
20:32:26 <oerjan> alise: oh hm it occured to me, what _does_ a sequence of (0,0) actually do?
20:32:45 <alise> [0] := [0] + 2;
20:32:48 <alise> [0] := ~([0] | [0]);
20:32:49 <alise> so
20:32:53 <alise> [0] := ~([0] + 2);
20:32:55 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:33:11 <alise> at which point it will go somewhere entirely unrelated to where you were at the start
20:33:37 -!- cheater2 has joined.
20:33:38 <oerjan> well if ip != 0 then that won't do anything much
20:34:18 <alise> it will not do much in any case!
20:34:47 <Mathnerd314> hmm... are there any esolangs with type systems?
20:34:54 <oerjan> indeed. i had hoped that by some coincidence you'd jump inside the original range _after_ having put information there about the outside
20:35:26 <alise> Mathnerd314: Haskell /ouch/
20:35:35 <alise> more seriously, yes, such as faces of the lambda cube; they're only retroactively esolangs, though
20:35:40 <oerjan> on the other hand, that seems to me like in a nutshell what you want to do for the infinite memory setup
20:35:41 <Mathnerd314> hahaha
20:35:43 <alise> Mathnerd314: C++ :-)
20:36:08 <pikhq> C++'s type system *is* an esolang.
20:36:08 <Mathnerd314> C++ is not an esolang, according to the esolang wiki
20:36:11 <oerjan> at each 2^n location, you put essentially a code to do that.
20:36:20 <pikhq> A Turing tarpit, even.
20:36:35 <oerjan> lessee, (ip, x) would be a good start.
20:36:54 <hiato> Mathnerd314: C+-
20:37:07 <hiato> (c more or less)
20:37:15 <alise> Mathnerd314: it's WRONG
20:37:20 <oerjan> and then perhaps (#-1, ip).
20:37:54 <oerjan> alise: it is possible that putting a sequence ip x #-1 ip at the start of every 2^n boundary is enough
20:38:00 <AnMaster> hiato, found the issue with the file btw, out of date documentation
20:38:23 <alise> oerjan: Yes, but it's a bit of a Cheat.
20:38:35 <oerjan> then you jump back to 0, having set [x] to a pointer to the outside
20:39:00 <oerjan> and then you can extract the new fresh bit from [x] :)
20:39:19 <alise> lol
20:39:25 <alise> new bits, freshly squeezed
20:39:27 <oerjan> alise: sure it's a cheat but it's much simpler than what ais523 did for t-2,3 i'm sure
20:39:31 <hiato> AnMaster: how did you manage that?
20:39:50 <AnMaster> hiato, manage what? figuring out what I was supposed to do instead?
20:39:57 <AnMaster> well, grepping source for references to this file
20:40:04 <AnMaster> (surely it has to read the file somewhere)
20:40:13 <AnMaster> noticing there *were* no such references
20:40:34 <AnMaster> checking commits since that release which *had* such references
20:40:39 <AnMaster> (weren't too many)
20:40:55 <AnMaster> and then figuring out what it was supposed to do instead (pass them on cmd line arg!!!)
20:41:02 <AnMaster> (at least that is somewhat saner than the old variant!)
20:41:15 <AnMaster> (if only they would update the docs too)
20:41:40 <hiato> Haha
20:41:44 <hiato> +7 exp AnMaster
20:42:36 <Mathnerd314> so no real esolangs with type systems... because types are impossible to experiment with?
20:42:45 <AnMaster> hiato, oh btw this can automatically generate comparsion tables for various statistics. In plain text and latex
20:42:50 <AnMaster> oh and html
20:43:02 <AnMaster> hiato, like different parameters to the simulation
20:43:12 <Sgeo> My step-mother: "You see the nice weather? God decided to give you nice weather on your birthday." I think she's just being annoying, but she might be serious
20:43:12 <AnMaster> or different binaries with same parameters
20:43:16 <hiato> AnMaster: nice
20:43:29 <AnMaster> hiato, yes, quite. But yeah a PITA to get it working indeed
20:43:36 <hiato> Sgeo: I dont think god is though
20:43:43 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: i had this insane idea once of a combinator language with overloaded monads like haskell
20:43:54 <AnMaster> hiato, they fail at the docs a bit, too few linebreaks in the pdf
20:43:55 <AnMaster> as in
20:43:56 <oerjan> nothing fleshed out though
20:44:00 <AnMaster> command run over the edge
20:44:04 <AnMaster> runs*
20:44:22 <hiato> AnMaster: Yes, this was a definite walk. away. now. proggy
20:44:42 <AnMaster> hiato, nah, there was just in one place, and that seems fixed in the latex master file in git head
20:44:48 <hiato> oerjan: sounds deceptively interesting
20:44:52 <oerjan> basically slightly like unlambda, except c wasn't just call-with-current-continuation, but actually was typed in the Cont monad
20:45:00 <AnMaster> hiato, oh graphs as svg
20:45:03 <AnMaster> it can output those too
20:45:30 <oerjan> and ` was not just application, but like haskell =<<
20:45:34 <hiato> AnMaster: impressive stuff, but le's see if it actually works now ;)
20:45:40 <hiato> oerjan: hmmm
20:45:53 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: well, I'm thinking of a "cool" esolang where (<$>) = (.) = ($) = id
20:45:56 <AnMaster> hiato, well yes it does, I'm just trying to make sense of the statistics currently
20:46:12 <AnMaster> hiato, as in, ptlsim (the actual simulator) works
20:46:35 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: every value would be in a monad when put on the _right_ of an application (=<<) but would be unwrapped into a function on the left
20:46:35 <AnMaster> hiato, but ptlstats (takes the data dump and makes something human readable from it) I haven't figured out yet
20:46:50 <pikhq> http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,692001,00.html Google Translate? Usable? Hah!
20:47:00 <AnMaster> hiato, well ptlstats works, but I need to figure out how to get the part of it that I need in a meaningful format
20:47:19 <pikhq> It's not far from "my nipples explode with delight"!
20:47:29 <hiato> heh, welcome to the silly wortd of machine code dumps
20:47:35 <oerjan> (the language name is liMonade, btw)
20:48:13 <AnMaster> hiato, as in, I can get it to dump the data format in a somewhat more readable format, but it seems to be miss per cache type per instruction (as in, not per instruction in the program, but merged for all instructions of a given type, say, div, add, or whatever)
20:48:19 <AnMaster> which is not quite the stat I want
20:49:12 <alise> Mathnerd314: that's just concatenative right?
20:49:54 <Mathnerd314> not really; it's something like loosely-typed Haskell
20:49:55 <hiato> AnMaster: meh. How does it sim? With a pipeline and all? clock cycles?
20:50:01 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: btw the suggestion of making (.) = (<$>) i've heard on #haskell before. in fact i think lambdabot implemented it for a while.
20:50:18 <alise> <pikhq> It's not far from "my nipples explode with delight"!
20:50:20 <alise> I WISH
20:50:28 <alise> :P
20:50:41 -!- tombom has joined.
20:50:41 <AnMaster> hiato, it is cycle accurate and you can get it to dump pipeline state for every cycle (the manual warns that the dump file will be huge if you do that)
20:50:45 <alise> Mathnerd314: well having function application be composition...
20:50:51 -!- cal153 has quit.
20:50:52 <alise> makes little sense.
20:51:04 <AnMaster> hiato, also it can switch to native execution for the parts you are uninterested in
20:51:14 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: mixing $ in is going to give some ambiguity though, even though it's the Identity monad
20:51:14 <AnMaster> hiato, like, only do the full thing for a few functions
20:51:45 <oerjan> alise: ($) = (<$>) is the identity monad i think
20:51:45 <AnMaster> hiato, oh and there is a version that integrates with Xen to do full system simulation, and the website says a kvm-based variant is currently being worked on
20:51:51 <hiato> AnMaster: this thing actually sounds pretty useful
20:51:53 <hiato> wow
20:52:03 <oerjan> or is it (<*>), maybe those are all the same in it
20:52:25 <AnMaster> hiato, I have only tried user space simulation, but considering how tricky THAT was... I can only imagine the pain of the full system ones
20:53:08 <AnMaster> (And I still haven't figured out what exact parameters I need to ptlstats)
20:53:21 <hiato> Haha, yeah. If the docs are anything to go by...
20:54:13 <AnMaster> ah
20:55:10 <AnMaster> hiato, I think I figured part of it out. The stats is represented as a tree. So I want something like /ooocore/dcache/<something>
20:56:23 <Mathnerd314> alise: it's overloaded juxtaposition, basically. f $ x is the same as f x, and I want f . g to be f g as well
20:57:25 <hiato> AnMaster: Really? Hmmm, well good luck finding those nodes then... that is a little silly
20:57:40 * Sgeo is worried about becoming a Google fanboy
21:01:19 <AnMaster> hiato, oh btw it does simulate an out of order core
21:01:35 <AnMaster> or optionally a sequential one
21:01:41 <AnMaster> there are various settings related to both
21:02:36 <AnMaster> hiato, and the tree system is quite sane
21:02:41 <AnMaster> since there are a lot of different stats
21:02:44 <AnMaster> that can be examined
21:03:02 <AnMaster> doing a "flat" system would be impossible to manage
21:03:03 <hiato> AnMaster: where di you get this thing again?
21:03:28 <hiato> AnMaster: Perhaps, I envisaged a nice file prefix system, but hey
21:03:31 <AnMaster> hiato, well www.ptlsim.org is where, but before you asked how I found it, which was from llvm
21:03:41 <hiato> right
21:03:47 <AnMaster> (or rather a publication of them)
21:03:56 <AnMaster> hiato, I'm using git head here
21:04:04 <Sgeo> alise, do you know anything about eBuddy?
21:04:13 <Sgeo> I'm wondering if it might be malicious
21:04:38 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:05:15 <alise> Sgeo: It's old and fine but, you know, shitty.
21:05:24 <alise> meebo is better imo
21:05:36 <Sgeo> Meebo keeps disconnecting
21:05:46 <Sgeo> If eBuddy is safe, I think I'll try it
21:05:53 <Sgeo> [I'm talking about on my phone btw]
21:06:56 <AnMaster> hiato, oh yeah and don't make it dump a snapshot every 100 cycles (I meant 1000 but typoed)
21:07:18 <AnMaster> hiato, the data dump I got was 552MB, and that was just for ./program --help
21:08:37 <hiato> Wow. Ok, noted
21:09:36 <Sgeo> "After using ebuddy, my hotmail account got attacked and it kept sending spam msgs to my entire contact list."
21:11:46 <Sgeo> from WOT: "They keep and can use you password of account"
21:12:46 <AnMaster> okay now this is strange, why are there multiple cpu nodes in there
21:12:59 <hiato> hah, unlucky
21:13:17 <AnMaster> hiato, either it does SMP simulation and then I'm extremely impressed, or vcpu0 vcpu1 and so on mean something else
21:14:26 <hiato> AnMaster: that sounds a lot like smp to me..
21:14:32 <AnMaster> wow
21:14:44 <AnMaster> but should there be an option to control number of cpus you want then...
21:15:00 <hiato> Heh, time to read the... oh wait.
21:15:17 <alise> <Sgeo> [I'm talking about on my phone btw]
21:15:22 <alise> get an app
21:15:31 <alise> also, I think those are unrelated to ebuddy.
21:15:42 <AnMaster> hiato, ?
21:15:43 <Sgeo> Yes, but if eBuddy on the web is malicious, then the app would also be malicious
21:15:47 <alise> tons of people get msn viruses by being retards; the latter has no evidence provided
21:15:52 <Sgeo> Hm, true
21:16:30 <hiato> AnMaster: the missing word was docs :P
21:16:35 <Sgeo> There are people who think geocities is malicious because one site is malicious
21:16:38 <AnMaster> ah
21:16:47 <AnMaster> hiato, I wondered if it was "source" or "docs"
21:17:32 <hiato> fair enough
21:17:49 <AnMaster> hiato, I'm building git head docs atm, lets see if that is better than website
21:17:55 <AnMaster> hopefully a bit
21:18:06 * AnMaster watches pdflatex output scroll by
21:18:49 <alise> get a non-ebuddy app then
21:19:00 <AnMaster> hiato, so, the Xen one does SMP/SMT it says
21:19:06 <AnMaster> but the user space one?
21:19:07 <AnMaster> hm
21:19:47 <hiato> Well, it's donig it so far as I can tell, but what do those dumps hold? Perhaps theyre empty
21:20:32 <AnMaster> hiato, perhaps. Note it is NOT the ptlsim.log file
21:20:44 <AnMaster> you need -stats foo
21:20:45 <AnMaster> and then that
21:20:58 <AnMaster> (well, foo.stats is probably a better name)
21:21:10 <hiato> heh, yep. Ok, I see
21:21:38 <AnMaster> hiato, what distro?
21:21:46 <AnMaster> hiato, because here it needs sudo to run
21:21:59 <AnMaster> the mailing list indicates this is needed on ubuntu and a few other distros
21:22:14 <Sgeo> Meebo does seem to be a nicer interface, but it simply doesn't WORK
21:22:51 <AnMaster> oh god, this is nasty (reading source code that defines the stats tree)
21:23:12 <AnMaster> hiato, ^
21:23:35 <AnMaster> hiato, know ghc? think "ghc evil mangler" kind of nasty level...
21:24:01 <Sgeo> I can't seem to add my AIM account to eBuddy
21:27:41 <Sgeo> eBuddy doesn't warn me that I'm offline
21:31:40 <AnMaster> hiato, oh it seems it need full system simulation to do TLB stats properly, that explains the strange numbers (which were reasonable for the first small "dummy" test
21:31:43 <AnMaster> )
21:31:57 <AnMaster> well, maybe I'll try that later, the other stats are still interesting
21:32:00 <AnMaster> for other type of caches
21:32:20 <AnMaster> hm
21:32:22 <AnMaster> actually wait
21:32:33 <AnMaster> that seems to be to make it use real tlb from the cpu
21:32:40 <AnMaster> I'm not sure about tlb for user space
21:33:38 <AnMaster> ah no, user space version do not model it
21:33:46 <AnMaster> and nah I'm not doing Xen this evening
21:36:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:36:47 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi, everybody!
21:39:14 <oerjan> 'evening
21:40:14 <Phantom_Hoover> No, no, no! You're supposed to say "Hi, Dr Nick!"
21:40:27 <oerjan> who the heck is dr nick
21:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Simpsons reference.
21:41:00 <oerjan> aha
21:45:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Why does Facebook discriminate against people who eschew mobile phones?
21:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's appalling, I say!
21:46:53 <alise> Facebook discriminates against intelligence.
21:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, but I wouldn't have *any* friends if I didn't use it.
21:47:58 <alise> You've got us, man.
21:48:27 <Phantom_Hoover> You suffer the crippling disadvantage of knowing more about one of my fields of interest than me.
21:50:09 <pikhq> Yeah, that'll happen. Is called "life". :P
21:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I know. It still annoys me.
21:50:43 * Sgeo uses Facebook >.>
21:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I must know all.
21:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Damned Göedel...
21:51:10 * pikhq uses AIM
21:51:19 * pikhq has for 12 freaking years now.
21:51:59 * Phantom_Hoover once had a theory that everyone was a reincarnation of myself.
21:52:29 * oerjan recalls seeing that theory somewhere recently
21:52:43 <oerjan> with a scifi reference that wasn't named
21:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I came up with it first!
21:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I was about 10 at the time!
21:53:04 <oerjan> (if it wasn't here, probably reddit)
21:53:29 <oerjan> yeah but that was in a previous life *ducks*
21:53:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Aha! You admit it!
21:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> What are next week's lottery numbers, by the way?
21:54:14 <oerjan> i cannot admit what i don't remember
21:54:27 <oerjan> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8
21:54:34 <oerjan> lowest payout ever
21:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Only 6 numbers in the UK.
21:54:56 <oerjan> doesn't matter, it's 1,2,3,... everywhere
21:56:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> I must know all.
21:56:03 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Damned Gedel...
21:56:06 <alise> lol
21:59:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:00:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Goddamn connection...
22:02:25 <alise> I am bloody determined to come up with an OISC.
22:02:38 <alise> oerjan: hey I think my language could be salvaged
22:02:39 <alise> if we kept the basic
22:02:40 <Gregor> Do you have something against subtract-and-branch-if-negative?
22:02:43 <alise> [0] := [0] + 2;
22:02:45 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
22:02:46 <alise> but then added more mutation
22:02:49 <alise> with an extra dereference
22:02:55 <alise> Gregor: It's called research, man.
22:03:00 <alise> Also, RSSB is better, having only one operand.
22:03:32 <oerjan> darn language mutants
22:04:13 <alise> perhaps
22:04:14 <alise> [0] := [0] + 2;
22:04:14 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
22:04:14 <alise> [[[0]-2]] := something
22:04:27 <alise> since [0]-2 doesn't normally mutate with this, it lets us have something reliableish
22:04:33 <alise> only question is what's something, and is this enough
22:05:59 <alise> oerjan: perhaps
22:06:01 <alise> [0] := [0] + 2;
22:06:02 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
22:06:02 <alise> [[[0]-2]] := [[0]-1];
22:06:08 <alise> then we get a free copy to a dynamic addres with every instruction
22:07:13 <oerjan> food ->
22:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> What?
22:09:05 <alise> what what?
22:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> RSSB just looks like the MOV system used in the Wireworld computer.
22:09:25 <alise> it's not mov is it?
22:09:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: mmap'd functionality is not unusual for OISC stuff. ;)
22:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I want not approve on it. I think nonsensical post.
22:11:35 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:12:01 <alise> hi the 38 zzos
22:12:56 <zzo38> How often in any programming can use "same number for multiple purposes"?
22:13:27 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ...How many purposes has a number?
22:13:40 <pikhq> zzo38: Context por favor?
22:14:19 <zzo38> I mean like the "stroker.gb" game, I wrote, it used 0x9C for clear screen tile instead of 0x00 so that the register can be used for multiple purposes at once
22:14:51 <zzo38> And in one solitaire card program I write, it uses ASCII 32 (space) for wildcard so that it can be checked by LTRIM$ function if a pile consists entirely of wildcards
22:15:40 <zzo38> And, in code-golf, the C program is given no command-line parameters so the solution can be written: main(i){while(putchar(i++)<127);}
22:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Reminds me of the Real Programmer story.
22:16:03 <zzo38> Yes, it might be similar in many ways
22:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you use cat >a.out as a compiler?
22:16:36 <pikhq> Ah. It's most common in various forms of golfing.
22:16:55 <pikhq> Or at least space optimisation.
22:17:17 <pikhq> Which *used* to be fairly common. Now, "space optimisation" consists of "-Os".
22:17:24 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: cat >a.out is not so good for binary files
22:17:35 <zzo38> A hex-editor would be used instead.
22:17:39 <Phantom_Hoover> A Real Programmer would not be deterred.
22:17:42 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Won't handle 0x00 right.
22:17:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ^@?
22:18:03 <zzo38> If you have GameBoy or GameBoy emulator, you can check this game and you can see how it is used: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/GameForth/game/stroker.zip
22:18:16 <zzo38> However some bugs in some emulators mean it has to be longer than it should be
22:18:20 <pikhq> Erm. No, wait, EOF is differentiable from other characters. Never mind. :P
22:18:29 * pikhq has done too much Brainfuck.
22:18:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I never say the point of 0-on-EOF.
22:19:32 <pikhq> With 8-bit cell Brainfuck, you have 2^8-1 choices for EOF.
22:19:38 <pikhq> Of those, 0 is the easiest to test against.
22:19:58 <zzo38> I prefer 0 for EOF on brainfuck, but some uses 255 because of the C program.
22:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but I always thought of it as inelegant. 0 is still a valid ASCII character.
22:20:14 <oerjan> alise: the problem is not copying to "dynamic" addresses, which you already could do perfectly well, the problem is constructing any value outside the initially provided range
22:20:37 <pikhq> *All* possible values are valid characters for normal IO in 8-bit Brainfuck.
22:21:03 <pikhq> You only start getting truly "complete" IO in greater-than-8-bit Brainfuck.
22:21:24 <pikhq> (or hacks, such as, say, interleaving IO with an "EOF" flag or some such.)
22:22:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:03 <zzo38> If I make some changes in Linux I would have to add a few additional signals, such as SIGBREAK SIGCORE SIGDC1 SIGOKILL and so on.
22:24:32 <zzo38> Where SIGOKILL is like SIGKILL but overrides everything that can prevent SIGKILL from working including init process, uninterruptable sleeping, etc
22:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought SIGKILL killed *everything*.
22:25:20 <zzo38> Wikipedia says it doesn't.
22:26:50 <zzo38> It says SIGKILL don't kill blocked state programs, therefore SIGOKILL needs to killed even blocked state programs immediately.
22:27:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It's never simple, is it?
22:27:31 <zzo38> Well, it never always works, is it?
22:27:59 <pikhq> zzo38: SIGKILL does, in fact, kill init.
22:28:08 <pikhq> When init is killed, the kernel panics.
22:28:15 <zzo38> Then Wikipedia is wrong.
22:28:30 <pikhq> Try it. "kill -9 1".
22:28:32 <pikhq> >:D
22:28:49 <zzo38> Or maybe it kills init only on some operating systems but on other operating systems, it doesn't.
22:29:13 <Ilari> On Linux, init is special and is immune from SIGKILL iirc.
22:29:42 <Ilari> And killing D-state programs with SIGKILL is technically possible but hairy to implement.
22:29:45 <pikhq> Ilari: Kernel panic.
22:30:32 <Ilari> IIRC, earlier versions didn't have that protection but I first noticed that logic when reading kernel sources.
22:32:22 <zzo38> In addition, SIGOKILL would prevent other programs from being notified by using another signal (such as SIGCHLD), but it can still check normally if a process exists
22:33:40 <alise> <oerjan> alise: the problem is not copying to "dynamic" addresses, which you already could do perfectly well, the problem is constructing any value outside the initially provided range
22:33:43 <alise> er just put it in the source
22:34:35 <Ilari> "kill -9 1" does nothing.
22:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> We're not falling for that one.
22:35:24 <alise> on os x, kill 1 reboots the system.
22:35:50 <Ilari> Well, that was on Linux 2.6.32...
22:36:59 <oerjan> alise: um i was assuming you were trying to solve the problem of accessing unbounded memory without unbounded pre-initialization, otherwise you have no _need_ for any more modification
22:37:34 <Ilari> Fun tricks: 'clone(9, NULL)'. :-)
22:37:48 <oerjan> i believe your original (a,b) version is perfectly adequate for computation with bounded memory
22:37:57 <zzo38> What is 'clone(9, NULL)'?
22:37:59 <alise> oerjan: not INFINITE preinitialisation
22:37:59 <Gregor> Ilari: wtfbbq
22:38:02 <Gregor> There's code at 9? :P
22:38:03 <alise> but unbounded
22:38:16 <alise> I want infinite memory + finite but unbounded initialisation
22:38:18 <Ilari> Actually, 'sys_clone(9, NULL)'.
22:38:29 <oerjan> alise: unbounded = infinite in this case
22:38:37 <zzo38> And what is 'sys_clone(9, NULL)'?
22:38:59 <alise> oerjan: right
22:39:00 <Ilari> Like fork but use SIGKILL on process termination instead of SIGCHLD.
22:39:07 <alise> oerjan: but "any value you like" can go in the source
22:39:15 <alise> this also includes all possible values, because of finite bit size.
22:39:22 <alise> moving it somewhere is the problem
22:39:25 <alise> ah, I see
22:39:28 <alise> because I dereference like that
22:39:36 <alise> oerjan: then clearly I need arbitrary bit size
22:39:39 <alise> then there is no problem
22:39:45 <alise> oerjan: only one problem; with bignums, what is "all ones"?
22:40:16 <Ilari> Also using sys_clone(11, NULL); sys_exit(0); and then making the child exit could be fun...
22:40:26 <oerjan> alise: -1 in two's complement
22:40:34 <alise> oerjan: yes, but you can't have infinite sized numbers
22:40:35 <zzo38> Ilari: OK, so, that's what it is, now I know
22:40:38 <alise> this is just bignums
22:40:47 <alise> bignats, rather
22:41:08 <oerjan> alise: signed bignums corresponds to any bitstring that _eventually_ becomes just 0 (positive) or just 1 (negative)
22:41:45 <alise> yes, but negative memory locations MAKE NO SENSE, BITCH
22:41:47 <oerjan> you cannot _do_ nor on bignums without sign, or something equivalent to it
22:41:48 <alise> ... I don't /think/...
22:42:01 <alise> oh true
22:42:11 <alise> oerjan: so with arbitrary size bits, this should work fine?
22:42:12 <zzo38> What does sys_clone exactly do, what are its parameters? (Looking on Google doesn't help much)
22:42:33 <oerjan> alise: the initialization problem remains
22:42:38 <alise> why?
22:43:41 <Phantom_Hoover> How can you possibly have arbitrary size bits?
22:43:56 <oerjan> because if all memory is 0 outside a bounded area of -2^n .. 2^n-1, and all values of cells in that area are also -2^n .. 2^n-1, then there is no way to construct a value outside that range
22:44:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, just infinite-bits
22:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
22:44:39 <oerjan> except for [ip], but at the point ip wraps over you are executing only zeros...
22:44:42 <alise> i.e. 0, 1, 2, ..., G_64, ..., xkcd, ...,
22:44:52 <alise> xkcd + your mother's weight in kilograms,
22:45:07 <alise> oerjan: clearly all memory should start at -1 then?
22:45:07 <oerjan> now now, let's not go inconsistently large here
22:45:12 <alise> no wait, x|0 = x
22:45:16 <alise> so 0 is nice.
22:45:22 <alise> "and all values of cells in that area are also -2^n .. 2^n-1"
22:45:22 <alise> no?
22:45:24 <alise> nothing is bounded
22:45:26 <alise> naturals
22:45:27 <alise> no
22:45:28 <alise> actually
22:45:28 <alise> integers
22:45:34 <alise> -inf,inf memory
22:45:39 <oerjan> alise: sheesh you are being dense
22:45:40 <alise> -inf,inf cells
22:45:45 <alise> oerjan: yes, I know.
22:45:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ...xkcd+A(g_64,g_64)...
22:46:10 <oerjan> if you have _finite_ initialization then there _will_ be some range that all initial values are inside
22:46:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: your mother is far heavier than that.
22:46:20 <alise> also, that is just 2*xkcd
22:47:26 <zzo38> What kind of numbers are G_64 and xkcd
22:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> g_64 is a Very Big Number.
22:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> xkcd is a webcomic.
22:47:59 <oerjan> zzo38: G_64 is graham's number, was in guiness book of records at one point as the largest specific number used in math
22:48:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And it ends in 7!
22:48:17 <zzo38> OK
22:48:25 <alise> zzo38: it's the upper bound on a value that's more likely to be on the order of 20
22:48:36 <zzo38> How can it be used as a number if it is a webcomic?
22:48:43 <alise> zzo38: basically you take arrow notation i.e. x^y is exponentiation x^^y is repeated exponentiation and so on
22:48:47 <alise> then you define numbers with absurd amounts of these
22:48:48 <alise> then you do
22:48:55 <alise> absurd ^...an absurd number of arrows...^ absurd
22:48:56 <oerjan> xkcd made a comic referring to the even larger number A(G_64,G_64) (where A is the ackermann function)
22:48:57 <alise> and that's G_1
22:49:04 <alise> and you iterate G_n+1 = substitute G_n for absurd
22:49:08 <alise> take the 64th element
22:49:11 <zzo38> OK
22:49:13 <alise> and you get something huge
22:49:18 <alise> I assume you know what the ackermann function is
22:49:31 <zzo38> Yes, I have heard of ackermann function, I know what it is
22:49:31 <oerjan> zzo38: xkcd didn't invent either G_64 or the ackermann, it's just the kind of geeky stuff xkcd sometimes references
22:49:59 <alise> well, xkcd = A(G_64, G_64); he came up with that
22:50:15 <zzo38> OK, now I can understand why they used it like that
22:50:18 <oerjan> and xkcd is so popular among geeks that once he did it, they named it after the comic
22:50:24 <alise> the great thing is that you can't cause a vast increase in it without resorting to a longwinded procedure
22:50:26 <zzo38> OK
22:50:32 <alise> vast as in relative to its size
22:51:19 <oerjan> incidentally A(G_64,G_64) is less than G_65, or something like that iirc, so putting A's around doesn't really help much
22:51:59 <alise> A(G_xkcd, G_xkcd)
22:52:00 <alise> problem solved
22:52:05 <oerjan> basically G's grow so fast that the ackermann function is insignificant in comparison
22:52:45 <zzo38> I made a solitaire card program, but it doesn't have a picture of Oscar Wilde on the wildcard, and the win screen doesn't have the vector drawing of the baker, the spider, the king. I would need to add these things if someone has the picture?
22:53:40 <zzo38> How many do you A(G_x, G_x) by "xkcd" times if x start A(G_xkcd, G_xkcd) and then x is the new value of the function after each time
22:53:46 <zzo38> ?
22:54:03 <alise> zzo38: I think G grows far faster than that
22:54:17 <alise> because it G_n+1 has G_n arrows as its operation
22:54:23 <alise> and then feeds G_n to both sides
22:54:29 <alise> so not only are the numbers huge, it /constructs/ a huge operation
22:55:50 <zzo38> Like, x'=A(G_x,G_x) x''=A(G_x',G_x')=A(G_A(G_x,G_x),G_A(G_x,G_x)) and so on?
22:55:51 <oerjan> zzo38: i think A(G_n, G_n) <= G_(n+1) for all n, or at least from a very small size
22:56:31 <zzo38> That means surely G_x' is more larger than G_x is?
22:56:50 <oerjan> yeah
22:57:11 <oerjan> however, x'' <= G_(x'+1)
22:57:24 <zzo38> OK
22:58:16 <alise> basically your attempts at increasing xkcd are fruitless :D
22:58:48 <zzo38> But that's xkcd''''''''''' must surely be more larger than xkcd'''' ?
22:59:20 <oerjan> oh they're all incomprehensibly larger than the previous, sure
22:59:45 <zzo38> Because xkcd''''''''''' = A(G_xkcd'''''''''',G_xkcd'''''''''')
23:00:28 <alise> Let lol_0 = G_1; lol_n = G_(G_(G_... (n+1 G_s) lol_(n-1)
23:00:39 <alise> Now consider lol_xkcd.
23:00:54 <zzo38> OK
23:01:09 <alise> Wow, you can actually hold that number in your head?
23:01:21 <zzo38> No. but I can consider it.
23:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> That's nothing compared to coppro's Turing-completeness.
23:02:01 <zzo38> What 's coppro's Turing completeness?
23:02:16 <alise> with your powers combined, I am Captain Turing!
23:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> A while ago he said that his brain was Turing-complete.
23:02:28 <alise> And the digits of lol_xkcd ARE...
23:02:44 <zzo38> O, so that's what it means.
23:02:59 <zzo38> In fact I don't even know how to calculate G_ of anything
23:03:55 <oerjan> well writing down the digits of G_1 won't fit in the observable universe, anyway
23:04:01 <Phantom_Hoover> They're all just bloody huge.
23:04:09 <alise> The last ten digits of Graham's number are ...2464195387
23:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> That helps.
23:04:14 <alise> didn't know we'd calculated that many.
23:04:35 <zzo38> OK, so you can partially calculate it, I suppose
23:04:47 <oerjan> alise: it's not really that difficult to calculate from the end as far as you wish
23:04:52 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_theorem#Friedman.27s_finite_form ;; numbers much bigger than graham's
23:05:32 <zzo38> I know I once invented a chess variant where the number of different kind of pieces was googolplex
23:05:43 <alise> ah here it is
23:05:46 <alise> zzo38: you know knuth's arrow notation?
23:05:52 <zzo38> Exactly googolplex, not approximate.
23:06:00 <alise> x^y is exponentiation; x^^y is repeated exponentiation; x^^^y is repeated ^^iation; etc
23:06:07 <zzo38> alise: Yes I have seen arrow notation on Wikipedia before, I know what it is
23:06:26 <alise> say G_1 = 3 ^^^^ 3; G_n = 3 (G_n-1 ^s) 3
23:06:31 <alise> then Graham's number is G_64
23:06:54 <zzo38> Of course it is impossible to actually play that chess variant
23:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Explain it?
23:07:08 <oerjan> alise: basically _all_ the G_n numbers end in the same sequence of digits afa our bounded universe is concerned
23:07:28 <zzo38> O, do you mean explain the chess?
23:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
23:07:32 <alise> oerjan: ah, clever.
23:07:36 <zzo38> It would take a while to explain
23:07:44 <zzo38> But I can type it later
23:07:52 -!- hiato has joined.
23:08:04 <alise> yeah "This algorithm produces the following 500 rightmost decimal digits of Graham's number (or any tower of more than 500 3s):"
23:08:34 <hiato> AnMaster: power failure. but i'll check the log tomorrow. on my phone now
23:09:20 <zzo38> But, basically, you have a 10x10 board with numbers 0 to 9 to determine how the piece is allowed to move in that direction (chosen by the position on the board) and then you assign digits 0 to 9 to each possible combination of that 10x10 board to determine how the moves of the pieces are combined together with each-other.
23:09:27 <alise> anyway, the number of digits in G_64 could not be written down in the physical universe
23:09:31 <alise> could the number of digits in G_1 be?
23:09:32 -!- hiato has changed nick to hiato-phone.
23:09:33 <alise> I suppose so.
23:09:38 <alise> it's not /that/ big
23:10:03 <oerjan> i thought not...
23:10:09 <alise> http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/68592.html says no
23:10:13 <zzo38> And that includes all kind of movement such as capturing, non-capturing, promotion, Chinese cannon move, Korean cannon move, leap or ride in any direction and any amount of spaces, restriction of adjacent pieces, and so on.
23:10:14 <alise> what about the log of its log
23:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Still staggeringly huge, probably.
23:10:34 <oerjan> 3 ^^^^ 3 = 3 ^^^ (3 ^^^ 3), right?
23:11:08 <hiato-phone> Isn't g1 just 3 -3 to the three to the three up arrows- 3? like, seventy billion or something
23:11:14 <alise> oerjan: i think so, yes.
23:11:32 <alise> hiato-phone: g_1 is much bigger than seventy billion
23:11:45 <alise> 3^^^3 = 3^^3^^3 = 3^^7625597484987
23:11:52 <alise> and I don't think you can write a 7625597484987-high power tower
23:11:55 <alise> (but good luck)
23:12:00 <hiato-phone> Oerjan, three with seventy billion up arrows three
23:12:12 <alise> no, hiato-phone is wrong.
23:12:28 <oerjan> hiato-phone: i think the number of arrows is actually small for G_1
23:12:34 <alise> yes.
23:12:40 <alise> G_1 = 3^^^3
23:12:43 <hiato-phone> Oh, ok then
23:12:51 <hiato-phone> Is that it?
23:13:02 <alise> which is (3^) repeated 7625597484987 (off by one or two) times
23:13:03 <alise> then a 3
23:13:07 <oerjan> G_2 on the other hand, is larger than what you said :D
23:13:16 <hiato-phone> I thought every level was previous level total in up arrows
23:13:19 <alise> G_2 = 3 (G_1 ^s) 3
23:13:26 <alise> yes, but G_1 is the base case
23:13:29 <alise> and it has three arrows.
23:13:45 <hiato-phone> Oh, right
23:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC there was a Horizon documentary a while ago with someone claiming that there was a largest integer.
23:14:02 <alise> were you being dijkstra and expecting everything to start at 0 :-)
23:14:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
23:14:07 <alise> Zeilberger.
23:14:17 <alise> A prominent ultrafinitist.
23:14:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, him.
23:14:24 <hiato-phone> Alise, heh, maybe :)
23:14:27 <alise> He's utterly crazy... but he's done some clever things.
23:14:39 <oerjan> now if you were able to calculate the _first_ digit of G_64 (or even G_1) then I think you'd have it made in mathematics.
23:14:54 <alise> He has a plane geometry textbook that a computer wrote by automatically finding proofs and writing the code for them
23:15:04 <alise> oerjan: well, that's the problem
23:15:08 <oerjan> no modulo tricks to help you there
23:15:09 <alise> calculating the first digit ~= calculating it
23:15:13 <alise> because of, you know, decimal
23:15:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/GT.html take a look at it, it's pretty cool
23:15:23 <hiato-phone> Hmm... i could do it in binary with an accuracy of fifty percent off the cuff
23:15:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:14 <oerjan> alise: any base other than 3^k would do, i'm sure :)
23:16:25 <alise> yes :P
23:16:32 * pikhq votes for base G_64
23:16:38 <alise> hiato-phone: the first digit is /obviously/ 1 in binary
23:16:39 <alise> think about it
23:16:40 <oerjan> well ... dammit pikhq
23:16:41 <alise> 01 = 1
23:16:50 <pikhq> alise: :)
23:16:50 <alise> oerjan: hey i did it in binary and that's not 3^k
23:16:53 <alise> it's 1
23:16:58 <hiato-phone> In fact, i can guarantee what it is in binary, heh, my bad. trinary with fifty percent
23:17:01 <alise> I'VE GOT IT MAAAAAAAAAADE
23:17:01 <oerjan> alise: you'll be famous!
23:17:14 <alise> what would it be in base 3^k?
23:18:08 <oerjan> oh, hm
23:18:20 <oerjan> ok maybe not all k
23:18:30 <oerjan> but in base 3 it's obviously 1
23:18:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
23:18:35 <oerjan> since it's a power of 3
23:18:53 <hiato-phone> Indeterminable, i agree with alise, at least equivalent to working the entire number out
23:19:28 <hiato-phone> Or, hmmm
23:20:01 <oerjan> 3^(3^...) = 3^(3*3*...) = (3^3^k)^... something
23:20:13 <oerjan> so i believe in every 3^3^k base it is one
23:20:40 <oerjan> um maybe 3^(3k)...
23:21:05 <alise> you could /probably/ simplify the problem from calculating /all/ of G_1
23:21:17 <alise> but you would have to calculate some large amount of context then somehow prove the rest has no affect on it
23:21:17 <alise> dunno
23:21:24 <alise> it seems a quite intractable problem
23:21:36 <hiato-phone> I'm not so sure, can you restate that proof type thing? it is possible that there is a power of 3 to the 3 to the k that is not a power of, say, 3 to the 3 to the 3 to the x
23:21:58 <pikhq> I wonder what the *last* digit of G_64 is. :P
23:22:01 <alise> *effect not affect
23:22:02 <alise> pikhq: we know
23:22:06 <oerjan> hiato-phone: G_1 = 3^3^3^3^...huge no. of 3's something
23:22:07 <alise> we know the last 500 digits, easily
23:22:16 <alise> that's why we're talking about it
23:22:25 <alise> pikhq: because after a while, the powers in the tower stop mattering
23:22:29 <alise> because they only change larger digits
23:22:32 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number#Rightmost_decimal_digits_of_Graham.27s_number
23:23:05 <Sgeo> WTF
23:23:09 <alise> WTF?
23:23:11 <Sgeo> Anyone here using Chrome?
23:23:14 <alise> no
23:23:16 <alise> why
23:23:27 <Sgeo> My school's website just seems to be blank
23:23:36 <hiato-phone> Reminds me of that biggest number contest on xkcd forums back in the day
23:23:38 <oerjan> hiato-phone: which is 3^3^something huge = 3^3^(k+something huge) = 3^(3^k * something huge) = (3^3^k) ^ something huge
23:23:49 <oerjan> for any reasonable k
23:24:12 <oerjan> where something huge is a natural number in each case
23:24:15 <hiato-phone> Hmmmm, ok
23:24:46 <alise> oerjan: of course all this is just silly because really busy beaver dwarfs A easily
23:24:58 <alise> but stupid people like numbers they can compute! hrmph!
23:25:06 <alise> (says the constructivist)
23:25:36 <pikhq> alise: Mmm.
23:27:14 <hiato-phone> Alise- let s . x = s . x+1 if x is real, x-1 otherwise
23:27:27 <alise> s being some sort of kooky function here?
23:27:35 <hiato-phone> Yep
23:27:36 <alise> also, real as opposed to what, integer? rational? irrational?
23:27:58 <alise> everything is a real apart from complex numbers.
23:28:08 <hiato-phone> Real as defined, well, on wk is a good start i guess
23:28:21 <hiato-phone> Real implies finite
23:28:29 <alise> No it doesn't??
23:28:30 <hiato-phone> I think
23:28:49 <alise> We should just make a computer program that continually makes up bigger and bigger recursive ways to create numbers
23:28:58 <alise> unbeatable, given long enough
23:28:59 <hiato-phone> Ok, then let me rephrase, if x elem integers
23:29:04 <alise> I propose this one
23:29:09 <pikhq> alise: All reals are finite numbers.
23:29:25 <alise> i = 0; while (true) { printline("#" * i); i++ }
23:29:27 <alise> output in unary
23:29:29 <hiato-phone> I think that s of anything should be as big as integers can get
23:29:35 <alise> pikhq: well infinite as in not infinite, yes...
23:29:41 <alise> although iirc there are models with infinite numbers?
23:29:49 <alise> even for the naturals
23:29:57 <pikhq> The reals are not normally such a model.
23:30:02 <oerjan> alise: yes
23:30:02 <alise> hiato-phone: it's just the "not definable in N words" paradox
23:30:05 <alise> pikhq: the reals are laws
23:30:07 <alise> the model is the model
23:30:16 <pikhq> As I said, "not normally".
23:30:18 <alise> the intended model of the reals has no infinities, but...
23:30:27 <alise> hiato-phone: as soon as you define s, all s(x) become "real"
23:30:28 <oerjan> if there is an infinite model, then there are models of all cardinalities, or something like that
23:30:29 <pikhq> Clearly, if you define the real differently, you get different properties.
23:30:30 <alise> because you can define them easily
23:30:31 <pikhq> :)
23:30:37 <oerjan> *infinite cardinalities
23:30:43 <alise> oerjan: in my world the reals have pi elements.
23:30:47 <alise> pikhq: you fail at understanding models :P
23:30:55 <alise> the reals are defined by the regular definition - pick any one you want -
23:31:00 <alise> this has the intended model, which is what we think we mean
23:31:08 <alise> but there are all sorts of non-standard models, such as ones that are countable
23:31:12 <alise> ones with infinities
23:31:13 <alise> etc
23:31:37 <hiato-phone> alise, the result is supposed to be real, by construction, but the 'largest'
23:31:52 <alise> hmm S(n) grows slower than ackermann?
23:31:54 <alise> surely not
23:31:55 <alise> er
23:31:57 <alise> hmm S(n) grows slower than G?
23:32:04 <alise> oh wait that's E
23:32:06 <alise> well, \Sigma
23:32:58 <hiato-phone> Blag, it's too late-actually early-for this stuff on my phone. cheers all
23:33:18 <alise> bye :)
23:33:35 -!- hiato-phone has quit (Quit: used jmIrc).
23:33:48 * Sgeo has to take a PERL class at some point
23:34:04 <Sgeo> Maybe I should delay that to next year, when I will be taking a different major, and thus might not end up doing PERL
23:35:32 <pikhq> A *class* in Perl?
23:35:45 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:35:48 <pikhq> There's really not much to the language. Well. Except there is a lot to the language. :P
23:35:59 <alise> PERL?
23:36:00 <alise> You fail.
23:36:01 <alise> Seriously.
23:36:02 <Sgeo> BCS 316 Perl programming
23:36:02 <alise> You just fail.
23:36:04 <alise> PERL
23:36:06 <alise> I CAN SHOUT
23:36:21 <pikhq> But it's more "We've got a bunch of operators, a bunch of syntax, and cheap regexps" than "there's a massive number of unusual concepts to it".
23:36:36 <alise> http://search.cpan.org/~jwalt/Acme-Lingua-NIGERIAN-1.0.0/NIGERIAN.pm
23:36:39 <Sgeo> "PERL Programming" is the title
23:36:59 <alise> Sgeo: Then it is worse than useless.
23:37:07 <alise> Clearly they haven't the first idea about the language if they know not even its name.
23:37:15 <alise> Probably based on Perl 4, and manually writing CGI scripts!
23:37:33 <alise> I'd suggest just, you know, giving up on whatever uni it is you go to.
23:37:39 <Sgeo> alise, that's the plan
23:37:47 <Sgeo> After this upcoming semester, I'm transferring
23:37:56 <Sgeo> Even though this means I'll graduate much later, probably
23:38:07 <Sgeo> Since after this semester, the next year is my senior year
23:38:09 <alise> Where to?
23:38:14 <Sgeo> Stony Brook
23:40:19 <alise> augur is there.
23:40:24 <alise> You'll like it there. ... You are gay, right?
23:40:33 <augur> no, im not at stony brook
23:40:33 <augur> i used to be
23:40:36 <alise> Oh.
23:40:37 <augur> Gracenotes is at stony brook tho
23:40:41 <alise> Poor Sgeo, missing out on all that rape.
23:40:45 <alise> augur: where be thou?
23:40:54 <augur> University of Maryland
23:40:57 <augur> Sgeo, where are you presently?
23:41:12 <alise> some nothing state university
23:41:20 <alise> ~50,000,000 pupils
23:41:33 <Sgeo> Farmingdale
23:41:39 <augur> ahh
23:41:43 <augur> man, we couldve hung out
23:42:05 <augur> you me and gracenotes couldve all hung out
23:42:05 <alise> Sgeo: that wasn't what i heard last time
23:42:06 <alise> [[tlimp: to kiss someone allergic to peanuts. as in John was tlimping all last night = John was kissing someone who is allergic to peanuts all last night]]
23:42:19 <alise> did you try and pick an unpronounceable word there
23:42:22 <augur> aww, alise, you remember :3
23:42:23 <augur> yes :)
23:42:33 <alise> no i just looked at your site lol
23:42:39 <augur> ;)
23:42:43 <augur> you remembered my site!
23:42:44 <alise> you should have the blog menu on the right it's disturbing on the left./
23:42:47 <alise> s/\/$//
23:42:57 <alise> like I feel like i'm constantly looking to the right
23:42:59 <alise> it's so irritating
23:43:05 <augur> good :D
23:43:27 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_University_of_New_York_at_Farmingdale no wait that is the one i thought of
23:43:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!).
23:43:45 <alise> augur: i won't read your blog anymore
23:43:48 <alise> SHUT UP N-- oh wait
23:43:58 <Sgeo> alise, yes, that one
23:44:28 <augur> alise: what :|
23:44:35 <alise> what do you mean what
23:44:37 <alise> * FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!)
23:44:43 <augur> oh wait what
23:44:50 <alise> play zelda
23:44:53 <alise> then you will know my pain
23:53:20 * oerjan uses finite integrals to quickly calculate f(0,x) = 1; f(n,x) = f(n-1,1) + ... + f(n-1,2*x)
23:53:47 <alise> oerjan: See, some of my genius has rubbed off on you.
23:53:48 <alise> ...Right?
23:53:53 <oerjan> that was a _huge_ improvement on the actual recursion, even with memoization (i.e. haskell lists)
23:53:55 <alise> Finite integrals are also known as "sums" :P
23:54:15 <oerjan> yeah but it's the theory that is important here
23:54:19 <alise> also why are you calculating that?
23:54:46 <alise> I love how the finite derivative of 2^x is 2^x because 2 is e rounded down
23:54:48 <alise> It's genius.
23:54:58 <oerjan> er...
23:55:06 -!- coppro has joined.
23:55:12 <alise> oerjan: that's actually how it was found in the paper
23:55:15 <alise> they tried 2 and 3
23:55:21 <alise> because they were roundings of e
23:55:57 * oerjan is doubtful, for some _unfathomable_ reason
23:56:25 <alise> oerjan: doubtful of what?!
23:56:34 -!- Oranjer has joined.
23:56:56 <alise> i guess it's more accurate to say that e is what you get when, instead of discrete distances where 2 works, you need to handle all the turtles, all the way down
23:57:02 <oerjan> that there was a paper where someone used rounding of e to find that derivative
23:57:47 <alise> it's the paper introducing finite calculus.
23:57:55 <oerjan> oh
23:57:56 <alise> http://www.stanford.edu/~dgleich/publications/finite-calculus.pdf
23:58:04 <alise> why, anyway?
23:58:24 <oerjan> why what
23:58:34 <alise> why doubtful
23:58:52 <oerjan> it sounded like a very silly way to guess the obvious
23:59:33 <alise> I think it's more an explanation.
00:00:26 <oerjan> i suppose different bases work for different increments
00:00:59 <oerjan> (a^(x+d)-a^x)/d = a^x
00:01:14 <uorygl> I suddenly have an odd feeling that I'm about to say something and alise is going to contradict me.
00:01:22 <alise> uorygl: No you aren't.
00:01:32 <oerjan> <=> a^d - 1 = d
00:01:39 <uorygl> Anyway, if a hypothesis is falsifiable, then as the time it's gone without being falsified approaches infinity, its probability approaches 1.
00:02:50 <alise> uorygl: True if and only if someone's /trying/ to falsify it.
00:02:54 <oerjan> well assuming the conditional probability of falsification has a nonzero lower bound per time unit...
00:02:54 <uorygl> Right.
00:03:05 <oerjan> (conditional on it being false)
00:03:09 <alise> If I said "pink elephants exist in a planet where everybody has penises of length -3.4i halfinches, and every fortnight they all explode and come back together again",
00:03:11 <alise> and nobody challenged it,
00:03:17 <alise> I don't think we could assume it gets more probable!
00:03:39 <uorygl> That's not falsifiable, though.
00:04:39 <alise> It is; "the planet is [some space we will be able to visit in the future]; we will be able to visit it in N years"
00:04:49 <uorygl> I could say, "The universe contains no planets that do not have sapient life but do have blue, hairy creatures that secrete food for their young."
00:04:51 <alise> set N = very big
00:05:02 <alise> even once we're able to visit it
00:05:04 <alise> we could falsify it
00:05:10 <alise> but let's assume it's in a really boring region of space and nobody does
00:05:13 <alise> it doesn't get more likely
00:05:18 <uorygl> alise: I could just always say that we haven't seen that planet because it's outside the observable universe.
00:05:28 <uorygl> Thus, there's no falsifying it.
00:05:28 <alise> Let's say it isn't.
00:05:47 <uorygl> The pink elephants are too small to be seen with our technology.
00:06:00 <uorygl> And the two people on it live underground.
00:06:37 <alise> No, I'm making it falsifiable.
00:06:45 <uorygl> Oh.
00:06:46 <alise> "We will be able to visit it in N years; it is N miles away"
00:06:51 <uorygl> Oh, I see.
00:06:56 <alise> Perfectly falsifiable: but let's say it's a really boring region of space, and nobody bothers.
00:07:04 <alise> Countless aeons pass. Still no more likely.
00:07:06 <uorygl> I didn't see that that statement was a refinement of the hypothesis.
00:07:14 * uorygl nods.
00:07:26 <alise> If people were /actively trying/ to disprove it, and they didn't, then it'd become more likely.
00:07:37 <alise> (But it'd take a bloody long infinity for it to become 1.)
00:09:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:09:52 <bsmntbombdood> alise: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54709
00:10:11 <alise> there are many like that
00:10:20 <alise> including some with a really heavy zalman metal case, you know that thing
00:10:29 <alise> question is how much powah can you get.
00:11:59 <alise> a totally silent computer is interesting in the psychological effect --
00:12:06 <alise> the computer would become completely ambient, it would make no disruption
00:16:07 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/Silverstone_ST45NF_PSU
00:16:16 <bsmntbombdood> there's your fanless psu
00:18:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:19:55 <alise> do you mean your as in the one i linked?
00:20:03 <alise> because i linked it
00:20:13 <bsmntbombdood> didn't see
00:20:43 <alise> yeah not a spcr review though http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=silverstone_nightjar_450&num=1
00:20:46 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
00:20:47 <alise> what google gave me
00:20:51 <alise> 450w is pretty fucking good
00:20:57 <alise> you could run an i7 and an okay graphics card off that.
00:21:01 <bsmntbombdood> indeed
00:21:06 <alise> would want megahalems for the i7 mos def
00:21:14 <bsmntbombdood> it probably needs some airflow though
00:21:27 <alise> and probably one of the videocards that can be ran fanless /without/ a crazy cooler that overheats
00:22:08 <alise> bsmntbombdood: I dunno man
00:22:19 <alise> open the back of the case entirely (with maybe some dust filter stuff)
00:22:21 <alise> or something
00:22:25 <alise> let natural airflow take care of it
00:22:30 <alise> maybe i7 is a bit excessive
00:22:33 <alise> bet i5 could take it though
00:23:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
00:23:51 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder how much passive airflow you'll get from the cpu sink
00:24:36 * uorygl listens to his MacBook.
00:24:48 <uorygl> Yep, it's making sound.
00:25:21 <uorygl> But it's drowned out by the sounds of birds and rustling leaves outside, my dad cooking, my little brother banging stuff, and other appliances.
00:25:23 <alise> Of course it is.
00:25:45 <alise> No birds and leaves at 12:25 am; nor much cooking going on. Only child, and no appliances are on.
00:25:55 <alise> And this is the ooold computer I'm on. Whirrrrrrr.
00:26:01 * uorygl nods.
00:31:30 <alise> bsmntbombdood: remember those crazy watercooling solutions we talked about?
00:31:34 <bsmntbombdood> no
00:31:51 <alise> putting everything in one big loop, then getting a large house radiator
00:32:02 <alise> that can handle like 2,600 w
00:32:05 <alise> and just pluggin 'er in
00:33:00 <alise> "The funny thing is, I never noticed my LCD whine until after reading this post. It has a very quiet, very high frequency line."
00:33:00 <alise> FUCKKKK
00:33:09 <alise> i can hear it now
00:33:16 <alise> oh my goddd
00:33:18 <uorygl> Heh heh.
00:33:19 <alise> kill me
00:33:25 <alise> i'm going to have to commit suicide.
00:33:55 * uorygl attempts to listen to an LCD whine.
00:34:09 <bsmntbombdood> you could put the psu in another room
00:34:26 <uorygl> I think I hear it.
00:34:37 <uorygl> I think my tinnitus is louder than that.
00:35:40 <bsmntbombdood> i hate all the armchair engineering that goes into reviewing heatsinks
00:36:13 <alise> I used to think I had tinnitus but I think everyone hears whining when things are silent.
00:36:20 <bsmntbombdood> something that has 8 heatpipes MUST be better than something 6
00:36:20 <uorygl> That's called tinnitus.
00:36:26 <alise> bsmntbombdood: in all fairness mike chin knows what he's doing
00:36:33 <alise> maybe you meant someone else
00:36:39 <alise> uorygl: no because tinnitus is a condition and it's constant
00:36:49 <bsmntbombdood> this heatsink doesn't have a mirror finish, it must suck
00:36:51 <uorygl> Hmm.
00:37:25 <alise> bsmntbombdood: now that's ridiculous, spcr certainly doesn't say such bullshit
00:37:34 <bsmntbombdood> wasn't talking about spcr
00:37:41 <alise> ok :)
00:37:50 <alise> yeah hardware review sites almost always suck
00:37:54 <alise> ... i like ananadtech though
00:41:32 <uorygl> Now I want to take a hearing test.
00:45:58 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.jab-tech.com/YATE-LOON-120mm-Case-Fan-D12SL-12-pr-3009.html
00:50:32 <bsmntbombdood> and, http://www.jab-tech.com/Scythe-KAMA-FLEX-80-mm-Silent-Case-Fan-Medium-Speed-SA0825FDB12M-pr-4111.html
00:57:22 <alise> bsmntbombdood: the nexus fans are meant to be good.
00:57:36 <alise> yate loon is apparently the same manufacturer as the nexus fans, but less reliable quality
00:57:37 <alise> (and thus cheaper)
00:57:42 <alise> they're kinda oldschool i gather
00:57:44 <bsmntbombdood> yate loon = nexus
00:57:49 <alise> scythe are excellent.
00:57:51 <alise> bsmntbombdood: no
00:57:55 <alise> different manufacturer, yes
00:57:58 <alise> but nexus have better QC
01:02:10 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article114-page1.html
01:02:13 <bsmntbombdood> that looks nice
01:04:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:05:10 -!- augur has joined.
01:06:34 -!- Oranjer has joined.
01:15:47 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article601-page1.html
01:15:51 <bsmntbombdood> that's interesting
01:16:04 <alise> most everything on spcr is
01:16:12 <alise> the picopsu is awesome
01:16:18 <alise> but only usable for low power situations obviously
01:16:22 <alise> even the higher watt brick you attach it to has a fan
01:16:28 <alise> so you need to use the lower one
01:16:32 <bsmntbombdood> use 2
01:17:12 <alise> 240 watts, I can barely contain my excitement
01:17:20 <alise> "No, use 50!" Now your computer is overheating.
01:17:33 <alise> besides, they're $50 a pop.
01:17:51 <alise> "Although the power brick is sold separately, Mini-box supplied two power bricks to test alongside the picoPSU, one rated for 80W, the other for either 110W or 120W (depending on which numbers you believe)."
01:18:02 <alise> the latter has a cooling fan ("on heavy load" -- most of the time with one of these, surely)
01:18:09 <alise> so basically you get ... eighty watts!
01:18:53 <bsmntbombdood> would be perfect for an itty bitty system to build inside house walls or something
01:19:00 <alise> house walls? why?
01:19:15 <alise> for like a kiosk thing? meh
01:19:21 <alise> would be v. nice for a media pc of some sort.
01:19:33 <bsmntbombdood> wouldn't it be cool to have a computer you couldn't see?
01:19:37 <alise> i'm imagining a big tv plugged into a teeny weeny computer running mythtv and all that kinda stuff
01:19:43 <alise> bsmntbombdood: well yes, but imagine maintaining it
01:19:46 <alise> or would you put a door in the wall
01:19:48 <alise> :P
01:19:53 <bsmntbombdood> no, that's the point
01:19:55 <bsmntbombdood> you can't find it
01:19:59 <alise> lol
01:20:03 <alise> wireless monitor
01:20:06 <alise> or is it just audio
01:20:11 <alise> like making ghost noises from the wall
01:20:18 <alise> woooh, it's a pc
01:20:23 <bsmntbombdood> wifi, duh
01:20:29 <alise> yeah wifi monitor
01:20:33 <bsmntbombdood> jesus, have you no imagination?
01:20:43 <alise> i'm joking, sir
01:22:06 <bsmntbombdood> put a couple terabytes storage
01:22:34 <bsmntbombdood> couldn't do that with that power supply though
01:22:45 <alise> precisely :P
01:22:53 <alise> well, 2tb drives don't have too bad power requirements i think
01:22:58 <alise> a network storage device would work better :P
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01:28:03 <Gregor> EXTERMINATE
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01:28:08 -!- AUGUR has changed nick to augur.
01:29:29 <bsmntbombdood> you could also put the power brick far enough away not to hear it
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01:31:53 <alise> bsmntbombdood: that is just cheating though.
01:32:00 <alise> also, after /too/ far it'll run into problems
01:32:04 <alise> and after not far enough you will hear it easy.
01:32:09 <alise> silence vs a little noise = a lot
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01:34:34 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: You could just use the fanless power brick. :)
01:37:50 <alise> 80w
01:39:02 <pikhq> Requires some doing, but quite feasible.
01:39:29 <pikhq> Especially if you're going for no-moving-parts.
01:40:14 <alise> but the point is that you can get a 0-fan pc doing much more than 80w
01:40:30 <alise> there are fanless 450w supplies; use them at 100-200w and you'll only need minimal airflow
01:40:39 <alise> be very careful and use a bit less and you'll only need natural airflow
01:40:43 <alise> (you'd def. want heatpipes somewhere else)
01:40:52 <pikhq> True.
01:40:56 <alise> really the best solution is: bunch of heatpipes + fucking gigantic radiator
01:41:10 <alise> but you would have to completely custom-do the heatpipes because i don't think you could mod the zalman easily to go to an external radiator.
01:41:12 <pikhq> The picoPSU is something you'd want for, say, something hooked into your TV running MythTV.
01:41:21 <alise> with that though you'd be able to handle a modern pc, save maybe graphics card
01:41:37 <alise> get two stonking great radiators and you'd be able to have a good processor and graphics card
01:41:45 <alise> of course: this will cost thousands to do the heatpipes & also get the house radiators.
01:41:50 <alise> and you will have to make it all yourself
01:41:52 <pikhq> Yes.
01:42:00 <alise> but if you did it... that would be utter perfection.
01:42:03 <alise> Now where are you going to put the radiators?
01:42:29 <alise> My wall of my room in the previous Hexham house that my computer stood at had a down-staircase on the other side.
01:42:38 <alise> I was actually thinking about drilling through my wall, running watercooling cables through,
01:42:44 <alise> and mounting a gigantic household radiator on the wall of the stairs.
01:42:55 <alise> That way it would stay cool in my room and I'd still have some inkling of space...
01:43:03 <alise> Better hope that radiator's held up securely though /wince
01:52:36 <Sgeo> alise, why are you using WinCE?
01:52:50 <alise> What?!
01:52:53 <alise> Oh.
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02:01:48 <alise> city
02:09:32 <alise> Death on a (pogo) stick.
02:14:44 <alise> http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20090930.png
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03:01:24 <bsmntbombdood> what's the point of a set-top box that can't handle 1080p?
03:03:17 <augur> alise
03:03:18 <augur> http://gunshowcomic.com/d/20100422.html
03:03:21 <augur> you are the rabbit in the igloo
03:03:25 <pikhq> 1080p is pretty easy to do with a low-power-usage computer.
03:03:41 <alise> i am always the rabbit in the igloo
03:03:49 <pikhq> Low power usage for a computer still gets you "able to decode h.264 in real time with ease".
03:03:49 <alise> also that page isn't loading for me :/
03:04:12 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: really?
03:04:21 <augur> http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20100422.gif
03:04:31 <pikhq> Yes. Modern CPUs are both crazy fast *and* don't use that much power.
03:05:05 <pikhq> My *last* CPU was able to decode 1080p h.264 in real time. And it would be a good 7 years old now. (and it was single core.)
03:05:53 <alise> now have 1080p h.264 and aac audio packed in matroshka or however you spell it
03:06:05 <pikhq> alise: Matroska.
03:06:09 <pikhq> And yes. Done that.
03:06:13 <alise> i'm not sure your old pc could really handle realtime 1080p h.264... that stuff is pretty hardcore
03:06:17 <alise> you need about 3ghz single-core iirc
03:06:20 <alise> or about 2ghz dual-core
03:06:26 <pikhq> It used about all of my CPU.
03:06:30 <alise> i guess it could be a good cpu from 7 years old
03:06:35 <alise> *ago
03:07:05 <bsmntbombdood> what was top of the line 7 years ago?
03:07:23 <pikhq> Erm. 7? More like 5. XD
03:07:24 <alise> i dunno
03:07:27 <alise> shit shittingham by Shitco
03:07:45 <alise> (technical term)
03:08:13 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Some Athlon 64...
03:08:49 <pikhq> This was just a *bit* before Intel trashed Pentium 4 for good, IIRC.
03:09:05 <bsmntbombdood> x2?
03:09:14 <alise> probably not.
03:09:16 <pikhq> Wait, they shipped P4s up until 2008?
03:09:21 <pikhq> What the fuck Intel?
03:09:21 <alise> dual-core came to fashion with the core 2 duo i think
03:09:32 <alise> pikhq: they're just sooo good
03:09:40 <pikhq> Yeah, I hadn't purchased an x2.
03:09:56 <alise> there's an athlon 64 x2 in this machine right now
03:12:41 <pikhq> My current system can encode h.264 (... 480p) in faster-than-realtime.
03:12:54 <alise> yeah 480p :P
03:13:00 <pikhq> (never bothered to check how much faster; I generally start the makefile before I go to sleep.)
03:13:04 <alise> 1080p h.264 is just glorious
03:13:08 <pikhq> It is.
03:13:24 <alise> the problem is that the real world doesn't have enough details to take full advantage.
03:13:25 <alise> :(
03:13:32 <alise> we should just meticulously draw everything
03:13:37 <pikhq> Pity my monitor is too cheap to display it.
03:13:40 <bsmntbombdood> alise: indeed
03:13:50 <pikhq> (it's 1440x900)
03:13:52 <bsmntbombdood> speaking of 1080p, i need a new hard drive
03:13:57 <alise> lol
03:14:05 <alise> bsmntbombdood: 2TB is all the rage. get two, RAID 0 them
03:14:06 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: MOAR TERABYTES
03:14:08 <alise> (just keep backups you bum)
03:14:13 <bsmntbombdood> raid0 ftl
03:14:14 <alise> 4TB of sex for about $400.
03:14:18 <bsmntbombdood> also, http://www.mini-box.com/PW-200M-DC-DC-power-supply?sc=8&category=13
03:14:25 <pikhq> Get four, RAID5 them.
03:14:26 <alise> so what, you are keeping backups right?
03:14:28 <alise> so raid0 it.
03:14:37 <bsmntbombdood> a 200w picopsu style
03:14:49 <alise> yeah with a fan component
03:14:53 <alise> solid-state ftw!
03:15:36 <alise> Clearly the next step in solid-state computing is eInk, to get rid of that pesky whine and distracting backlight.
03:16:00 <bsmntbombdood> no fan...
03:16:08 <alise> surely in the power brick.
03:16:39 <bsmntbombdood> oh
03:16:49 <bsmntbombdood> laptops generally have fanless power bricks
03:17:08 <alise> and also v. low power
03:17:08 <alise> we're talking 40-60w here
03:17:13 <alise> even the picopsu one can handle 80w 100% fanless
03:17:48 <bsmntbombdood> wtf are you talking about
03:18:16 <alise> what do you mean
03:18:21 <alise> eh
03:18:28 <alise> we should just get a bunch of flux capacitors
03:18:31 <alise> can power anything
03:18:39 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.mini-box.com/picoUPS-100-12V-DC-micro-UPS-system-battery-backup-system?sc=8&category=1264
03:18:40 <bsmntbombdood> bwahahaha
03:18:53 <alise> lol
03:20:15 <bsmntbombdood> hmmmmm
03:20:27 <bsmntbombdood> how many watt-hours are in a 12v car battery?
03:20:33 <alise> just use the 400-500whatever one
03:20:39 <alise> no fan at all
03:20:39 <alise> simple
03:21:03 <alise> just open all the holes in the case you can, and make sure the cpu heatsink is comfortably away from it
03:21:18 <alise> then use a low-power graphics card so you don't need a hefty heatsink because it has little heat output
03:21:21 <alise> job done
03:22:32 <bsmntbombdood> picopsu is cool just because it's so small
03:22:49 <alise> make the smallest modern x86 computer you can
03:22:57 <alise> problem is... all mobos are pretty big
03:23:03 <alise> I think mini-ITX is the smallest?
03:23:43 <alise> so get a low-power cpu with a very small heatsink so that it doesn't take up much height, stick a picopsu on it, a tiny (say the 18 series of intel SSDs) drive, leave the rest to the mobo
03:23:49 <alise> custom-make a tiny plastic case for it
03:23:55 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile-ITX
03:24:29 <bsmntbombdood> that's called a smartphone...
03:24:54 <alise> smartphones aren't regular x86 puters
03:25:12 <pikhq> That's x86.
03:25:19 <alise> oh you mean mobile-itx?
03:25:21 <alise> the page hasn't loaded yet
03:25:22 <alise> stupid 3g
03:25:29 <bsmntbombdood> why limit yourself to x86?
03:25:36 <alise> "regular" puter
03:25:39 <alise> puter puter puter
03:25:41 <alise> such a silly word
03:25:43 <alise> puter
03:25:51 <pikhq> Mobile-ITX is 60mm by 60mm. Though it gets a little bit larger due to the needed IO breakout board.
03:27:37 <pikhq> There's also PC/104. 96mm by 90mm, peripherals attached via sticking the board on top.
03:30:23 <alise> djb has published a new standard-workstation list of parts & software & stuff since 2005 every one or two years... and since 2006 all of them have been minor revisions with "I haven't assembled it yet, see the 2006 instructions"
03:30:26 <alise> why bother, man, why bother
03:30:28 <alise> you haven't even tried it :P
03:31:03 <pikhq> Hah.
03:31:20 <alise> also dammit i really wish core i7 supported ecc /sigh
03:32:45 <alise> I'd go AMD, but AMD processors suck.
03:33:37 <bsmntbombdood> pay extra for a xeon
03:33:47 <alise> bsmntbombdood: "no"
03:33:59 <alise> have to get special mobo, costs a lot more, iffiness about heatsinks, different socket etc.
03:34:19 <pikhq> Xeons are at a "bend over and take it" price point.
03:40:19 <Gregor> 's a good price point :P
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03:49:23 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117191&cm_re=xeon-_-19-117-191-_-Product
03:49:26 <bsmntbombdood> come on, that's not too bad
04:11:48 <alise> now add all the other ghosts, and see my other complaints
04:22:43 <bsmntbombdood> ghosts?
04:24:02 <bsmntbombdood> i'm going to have some tea
04:24:11 <alise> er, costs
04:24:13 <alise> not ghosts
04:24:16 <alise> bsmntbombdood: dammit, I want tea
04:24:19 <alise> you're such an english fucker
04:25:50 <pikhq> Fuck it. I'm getting some tea too.
04:26:41 <pikhq> Mmm, delicously delicious Earl Grey.
04:29:17 <alise> You know what?
04:29:18 <alise> Fuck you guys.
04:29:53 <pikhq> You mean there's a British person without tea?
04:30:03 <alise> To obtain tea I would have to:
04:30:15 <alise> - go downstairs; a laborous task
04:30:18 <alise> - find tea
04:30:20 <alise> - prepare tea
04:30:24 <alise> - walk back upstairs
04:30:34 <pikhq> I could've sworn the need for tea was so ingrained into the British genome that it was still quite noticable several generations removed from Britain.
04:30:35 <alise> Not only am I tired and I should really sleep as it's 4:30 am, but...
04:30:38 <alise> naw.
04:30:44 <alise> pikhq: SADLY NOT.
04:30:50 <alise> I don't even know if there's any decent tea here.
04:30:59 <pikhq> I mean, I still have quite a need for tea.
04:31:08 <alise> You're just crazy.
04:31:33 <alise> pikhq: You wouldn't even believe it, there are people here who put COW'S MILK in tea! Only Douglas Adams is allowed to do that!
04:31:53 <pikhq> ... You mean there's people who don't do that?
04:31:59 <pikhq> What heathens.
04:32:11 <alise> YOU LUNATIC!
04:32:20 * pikhq dances before the moon
04:32:26 <alise> *ere
04:32:28 <bsmntbombdood> i have lapsang suochong
04:34:22 <pikhq> The traditional hanzi for that is... ?
04:34:37 * pikhq wikipedes
04:35:20 <bsmntbombdood> 拉普山小種
04:35:24 <pikhq> "拉普山小種". Okay, that's straightforward enough.
04:35:31 <alise> wikiPEDOS
04:35:37 <alise> anyway seriously FUCK. YOU. GUYS
04:35:54 <alise> I expect you to lodge me & provide tea at my convenience as payment for this travesty
04:36:04 <bsmntbombdood> http://anandtech.com/show/825/4
04:36:06 <pikhq> "Small variety from the mountain Lap", apparently.
04:36:09 <bsmntbombdood> lol, cpu coolers from 2001
04:36:29 <pikhq> alise: Learn Japanese and maybe I will. :P
04:36:38 <alise> NO
04:36:41 <alise> ...well, okay.
04:36:48 <pikhq> (no reason for that except to make you squirm.)
04:36:55 <alise> Can I pay you [learn Japanese] after you provide me with the service?
04:36:58 <pikhq> (though you *do* have the time. :P)
04:37:00 <alise> I'll sign a contract!
04:37:07 <alise> No I don't... not right now at least.
04:37:11 <alise> (I'm too braindead on weekdays to.)
04:37:34 <pikhq> I strongly suspect a major portion of that is boredom.
04:37:45 <pikhq> Belive you me, boredom makes your brain fucking *dead*.
04:38:00 <alise> and being woken up at 7am every day.
04:38:05 <alise> that helps too
04:38:11 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
04:38:17 <bsmntbombdood> i think i've been getting dumber
04:38:26 <alise> bsmntbombdood: how old are you
04:38:29 <pikhq> Yeah, that's just cruelty to anyone younger than, say, 25.
04:38:34 <bsmntbombdood> 100
04:38:44 <alise> bsmntbombdood: presumably in binary
04:39:08 <pikhq> So, 4b10.
04:39:32 <alise> so, today I learned that in third grade, Eliezer Yudkowsky bit his math teacher because she didn't know what a logarithm was
04:39:43 <alise> which is just brilliant
04:39:50 <pikhq> Beautiful.
04:39:59 <pikhq> Also, how can you not know what a logarithm is?
04:40:06 <pikhq> I mean *god* that's basic.
04:40:11 <bsmntbombdood> 10100 in binary
04:40:16 <alise> Well, I didn't when I was that age, but that's only because the state education system was tainting my mind.
04:40:32 <bsmntbombdood> one of my coworkers was trying to get me to explain logarithms to her the other day
04:40:33 <alise> I was dumb right up until approximately the time I dropped out.
04:40:43 <bsmntbombdood> she couldn't get it
04:40:54 <alise> well your mind shouldn't be going at 20 unless you were exceptionally smart before
04:41:00 <alise> so i conclude you're just thinking you're getting dumber!
04:41:21 <bsmntbombdood> oh jesus christ
04:41:24 <bsmntbombdood> see what i mean?
04:41:30 <alise> what
04:41:39 <bsmntbombdood> i meant 10011
04:41:40 <alise> ...what
04:41:43 <alise> lol
04:41:45 <alise> fair enough then
04:42:04 <alise> pikhq: To make it even more awesome, I learned this as part of the only Harry Potter fanfiction to invoke quantum physics and Bayesian probability... why Yudkowsky wrote it I've no idea: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
04:42:14 <alise> ("You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat!")
04:42:15 <pikhq> alise: Hahahah.
04:42:26 <alise> It is quite thoroughly awesome though.
04:42:48 <pikhq> He *actually wrote* a HP fanfiction?
04:42:55 <pikhq> Wow.
04:43:19 <alise> It's 17 chapters long so far!
04:43:27 <alise> It's amazing, in a kind of this-is-an-utterly-pointless-exercise way.
04:43:29 <bsmntbombdood> hrm
04:43:33 <bsmntbombdood> i want to build another computer
04:43:36 <pikhq> Heheh.
04:43:40 <alise> bsmntbombdood: make it solid state
04:43:48 <alise> i encourage you to read it
04:44:05 <bsmntbombdood> alise: something like that
04:44:18 <alise> bsmntbombdood: it'd be awesome
04:44:32 <alise> you could use it as your main machine and keep the powerhouse in some network'd cupboard
04:44:40 <alise> and then make a command "faster" which sends commands to it
04:44:47 <alise> $ gcc ... huge.c
04:44:49 <alise> ^C
04:44:51 <alise> $ faster gcc ... huge.c
04:44:53 <alise> zOMG SPEED
04:44:54 <alise> $
04:45:20 <bsmntbombdood> what's the name of the thing i'm thinking of??
04:45:31 <alise> what is that thing
04:45:47 <bsmntbombdood> did "faster" automatically
04:45:52 <bsmntbombdood> no longer developed iirc
04:45:58 <alise> ccache?
04:45:59 <alise> distcc?
04:46:03 <alise> i assume we're talking cc stuff
04:46:07 <alise> rather than auto shellout stuff
04:46:08 <pikhq> Single-image multiprocessing?
04:46:12 <alise> i dunno what ccache's actually called
04:46:16 <alise> almost 5am damn
04:46:16 <pikhq> Erm. Clustering.
04:46:25 <bsmntbombdood> no
04:46:43 <bsmntbombdood> general purpose, it would migrate processes back and forth as need
04:47:05 <pikhq> Single-system image clustering.
04:47:36 <pikhq> There's many implementations of it.
04:48:37 <bsmntbombdood> ah, MOSIX is what i was thinking of
04:48:58 <pikhq> MOSIX is still developed, though OpenMOSIX isn't.
04:54:11 <Gregor> I thought MOSIX wasn't even developed when it was developed.
04:54:22 <alise> Mo' six plz
04:54:33 <alise> MOSIX: MAN POSIX!
04:54:35 <alise> POSIX for MEN!
04:57:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Hah.
04:57:41 <alise> I got 99 problems but POSIX ain't one
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05:34:28 <alise> Ah, I can't wait until I can be awake at this bedtime without a nagging feeling of doubt.
05:38:06 <Sgeo> glasses++
05:38:28 <alise> Sgeo: You are now wearing two pairs of glasses?? EXTRAORDINARY!
05:38:42 <bsmntbombdood> blargh, i still can't decide what heatsink to get
05:38:53 <alise> bsmntbombdood: Terahalems
05:38:59 <alise> Like Megahalems, but moreso.
05:39:00 <Sgeo> alise, ++ only increments by one. Go back to C-like languages 101?
05:39:06 <alise> They take up 3 average office blocks.
05:39:50 <alise> Sgeo: Well, if you're the kind of person who needs glasses, you probably put them on every day, and you certainly don't mention it every day. So this has to be some special occurrence, not regular glasses-putting-on. If you need glasses you probably already have them on. So you'd be wearing two pairs. If you didn't need glasses, it's unlikely you'd have a reason to put them on just now.
05:39:57 <alise> So the most likely explanation is that you are now wearing two pairs of glasses.
05:40:55 <Sgeo> Or, I'm the kind of person who can see perfectly well without glasses, but who has better depth perception with glasses
05:41:16 <alise> Then it is strange to mention such a common event as putting on your glasses in here.
05:41:29 <alise> Although you do do that quite a lot; I should have adjusted my estimate accordingly.
05:41:31 <alise> Ho hum!
05:41:34 <Sgeo> I recently [minutes ago] got a hold of these glasses
05:41:46 <Sgeo> Haven't worn glasses since 2007 I think
05:41:58 <Sgeo> So no, it is not a common occurance
05:42:53 <alise> Then you've been living with bad depth perception for that time? Knowingly?
05:43:00 <alise> Or is this a recently-discovered thing?
05:43:11 <Sgeo> Knowingly
05:43:35 <alise> Well that's silly.
05:46:53 <alise> Shit, it is almost 6 am!
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05:55:01 <alise_> abc
05:55:43 <pikhq> 6 am? Hold out for 5 am, alise!
05:55:44 <pikhq> :P
05:55:58 <alise_> -wut
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05:56:30 <pikhq> Just another 23 hours.
05:56:43 <pikhq> You could even get some tea to help you.
05:56:49 <alise_> pikhq: You realise that a few hours after /that/, I will have to go back to the Place?
05:56:56 <pikhq> Yes.
05:57:00 <alise_> And that I can barely function with one day's sleep deprivation?
05:57:05 <pikhq> Yes.
05:57:18 <alise_> Although one day looks likely now, much as I hate to admit it (as I seem to think that not admitting it will prevent it)...
05:57:29 <alise_> Happened last week too; why Friday night but not Saturday I wonder?
05:57:36 <alise_> (Do I sleep, that is.)
05:57:43 <alise_> Tea would be nice though. But what if things get boring?
05:57:44 <pikhq> Do you realise that I find it hard to be serious?
05:58:21 <alise_> I know, I know. But your advice is telling me to do things that I want to do, against my better judgement.
05:58:32 <alise_> So I'm trying to make you refine it into something close but slightly more reasonable and serious.
05:58:46 <alise_> Which you should probably not do, even though it won't change anything.
05:58:57 <alise_> Jesus christ, I wish I could just replace myself with a very small, rational, program.
05:59:46 <pikhq> I strongly suggest you spend the next week asleep and wake up refreshed and free on Friday night.
06:01:27 <alise_> Another facet of my irrationality is that I find it very hard to disobey when the idiotic knocks on the door - like I'm some sort of young child who isn't /intentionally/ not getting out of bed - progress from "<time>; time to get up" from "Are you not up yet?! It's <time> to eight! Gasp!".
06:01:54 <alise_> Plus they'd probably just get oh-so-worried and assign someone to keep watch on me 24/7 like they do with some of the others (and I mean that 24 literally).
06:03:16 <alise_> Yawn. My life there has progressed from intolerable in so many subtle ways, to merely so boring it's hard to think of anything moreso.
06:05:17 <alise_> Also --
06:05:22 <alise_> pikhq: Cookies! Have you ever thought about cookies?
06:05:31 <alise_> Oh, I even forgot. I go mad when I don't sleep.
06:06:16 <pikhq> alise_: How long until you start hallucinating?
06:06:42 <Sgeo> We need an op in here, stat!
06:06:57 <alise_> The most I have managed is on the order of 40 hours. I didn't hallucinate, but in the day or so before I was talking about metacampfires, which did verily descend into recursion infinitely, and also how stupid me sneezing on to my hand was.
06:07:05 <alise_> In the same paragraph.
06:07:21 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
06:07:45 <alise_> It's funny because there's a kind of inner calm sane person in my head, with the sort of skewy effects of tiredness on top, and it's kind of mocking me while I type out really ridiculous stuff drowsily.
06:08:20 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
06:09:02 <alise_> pikhq: what time is it in the American States, United?
06:12:07 <pikhq> alise_: 17:08 UTC+12, 15:08 Chamorro, 02:08 Atlantic, 01:08 Eastern, 00:08 Central, 11:08 Mountain, 10:08 Pacific, 09:08 Alaska, 08:08 Hawaii-Aleutian, 07:08 Samoan, 06:08 UTC-12.
06:12:19 <alise_> pikhq: heh -- and I just started to type "IT'S ANSWER TIME", too.
06:12:20 <pikhq> That covers all time zones in US territory.
06:12:39 <alise_> well I can safely discard Alaska, and I'm sure the UTC12s...
06:12:39 <pikhq> (UTC+12 and UTC-12 because the islands in them do not have defined time zones, and thus use nautical time)
06:12:46 <alise_> Chamorro too, and Hawaii.
06:13:04 <alise_> And Samoan.
06:13:06 <alise_> So we have 2:08 Atlantic, 1:08 Eastern, 0:08 Central, 11:08 Mountain, 10:08 Pacific.
06:13:18 <alise_> Is that 10/11 p.m. or a.m.?
06:13:21 <pikhq> Also Atlantic.
06:13:26 <alise_> I'd assume the former, but your two-digit hours confuse me.
06:13:31 <pikhq> Which is Puerto Rico.
06:13:35 <pikhq> Those are 24-hour.
06:13:48 <alise_> I did not know there was such disrepancy.
06:13:56 <alise_> 1:08 to 11:08; gosh.
06:13:56 <Rugxulo> it's a little after midnight here
06:14:07 <alise_> In fact I'm instinctively denying it.
06:14:14 <pikhq> alise_: Dude, the US is about the size of *Europe*.
06:14:23 <alise_> I know, but it clashes with my expectations so much.
06:14:34 <alise_> You guys have to... plan... think... about talking to someone in the SAME COUNTRY AS YOU because of time.
06:14:35 <alise_> Whoa.
06:14:36 <alise_> Uh, let me rephrase. What time is it where you are, right now?
06:14:42 <pikhq> 00:14.
06:14:55 <alise_> That's better.
06:15:00 <pikhq> What's crazy is how our time zones are defined.
06:15:04 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-Timezones.svg
06:15:04 <alise_> So you won't be here to support my folly soon enough; woe.
06:15:08 <pikhq> What about this makes sense?
06:15:13 <alise_> Or, at least, unless you pull an all-nighter too, which I doubt.
06:15:27 <pikhq> Probably go to bed in a couple of hours.
06:15:28 <alise_> Aah, certain people are going to be pissed at me when they wake up.
06:15:33 <alise_> Why do I do this to myself?
06:16:52 <alise_> See, now I hate you for implanting the stay-awake seed in my mind.
06:17:00 <Rugxulo> latest lame Befunge creation: http://www.pastebin.org/197670
06:17:13 <alise_> Doesn't seem reversible, either: 6:16 am; give the time it takes me to finally convince myself; then the time to do it; and it's morning already.
06:17:24 <alise_> I will take my anger out on Rugxulo. Fuck you! Grr. >_>
06:17:59 <pikhq> Anyways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Timezones2008.png See that size?
06:18:01 <Rugxulo> I guess it's too late (early?) for fizzie and AnMaster, I have a dumb question for one or both of them
06:18:08 <pikhq> Multiple time zones make sense for the US.
06:18:15 <alise_> Don't talk about time, Rugxulo.
06:18:18 <Rugxulo> except Arizona in their infinite wisdom
06:18:18 <alise_> Dooo not talk about time.
06:18:31 <alise_> pikhq: why are they segregated into nice little boundaries.
06:18:31 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Arizona is just silly.
06:18:54 <pikhq> alise_: What, the time zones?
06:19:10 <pikhq> Those are generally county lines in the US.
06:19:30 <alise_> What is that area, that does not observe DST?
06:19:36 <pikhq> Arizona.
06:20:04 <pikhq> The parts of Arizona that are not an Indian reservation, specifically.
06:21:01 <alise_> cool, Arizona be cool
06:21:02 <alise_> DST is shit
06:21:03 <pikhq> (an Indian nation, being simultaneously a sovereign nation and part of the US, sets its own time zone. (and no, that does not make any sense to me either))
06:21:06 <alise_> shitbags on a pogo stick
06:21:16 <pikhq> There's also Hawaii that doesn't do DST.
06:21:24 <alise_> hawaii coo
06:21:27 <alise_> can i sleep now, wanna sleep
06:21:30 <alise_> feel stupid when no sleepy
06:22:07 <alise_> So I waste one day of my weekend. How stupid am I?!
06:22:09 <alise_> sdfkd[g
06:22:39 <Rugxulo> pikhq, dumb question but does every state have an Indian reservation?
06:22:43 <Rugxulo> (I know ours does)
06:22:57 <alise_> I'm an Indian reservation
06:22:59 <alise_> and I need to pee.
06:23:02 <alise_> too tired to pee though
06:23:18 <Rugxulo> huh, GCC 4.4.4 released two days ago
06:23:27 <Rugxulo> funny how they do that even when 4.5.0 is out
06:24:33 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Most do.
06:24:41 <pikhq> What's really bizarre is that we spend *most* of the year in DST...
06:24:45 <alise_> I want to - this is all you fauuuuult
06:24:49 <alise_> i hate you
06:27:42 * Sgeo is considering getting an iPad for his step-mother's mother
06:28:03 <alise_> Getting someone an iPad: Always a bad idea.
06:28:11 <alise_> Also, why?
06:28:34 <Sgeo> She wants me to teach her how to use the computer. So why not get her something that's very simple to use?
06:28:55 <Sgeo> And that will be hers
06:28:58 <alise_> Because the iPad doesn't teach you how to use a computer... but it probably would teach her how to do what she wants, yes...
06:29:01 <alise_> Hmm...
06:29:06 <alise_> That's actually such a disturbing idea I'm afraid of it.
06:29:16 <alise_> Apple have found an amazing market and filled it with PURE EVIL.
06:29:25 <alise_> And the PURE EVIL is /great technology/...
06:29:34 <alise_> Ineedsleep
06:31:54 <Rugxulo> get her a netbook instead
06:32:04 <alise_> Running what?
06:32:05 <Rugxulo> you could drop the iPad easier
06:32:10 <alise_> Windows? Almost impossible to use.
06:32:16 <alise_> Linux? Not really suitable for this, in any of its incarnations.
06:32:22 <alise_> OS X? Doesn't come in netbook form; not suitable.
06:32:26 <Rugxulo> how so? I'm not in love with Windows by any means, but it's not impossible ... surely easier to maintain
06:32:38 <alise_> Maintain? We're talking someone who /does not know how to use a computer/.
06:32:40 <Rugxulo> there are some good netbook Linuxes, from what I've read
06:32:46 <alise_> Windows is only easy because we've used it for so long.
06:32:53 <Rugxulo> I mean "maintain" as in "it's more popular, so more people can help teach her"
06:32:59 <alise_> This woman almost certainly wants to -- use email. The web. And that is about it.
06:33:00 <Rugxulo> yes
06:33:05 <Rugxulo> netbook
06:33:09 <alise_> So? It's hard to mess up a few taps -- and I dislike the iPad, note.
06:33:14 <Rugxulo> heck, make it dual boot if you're that worried
06:33:17 <Rugxulo> or use VirtualBox
06:33:19 <alise_> I don't think you quite grasp the concept of usability.
06:33:25 <alise_> That would make the problem... indescribably worse.
06:33:31 <alise_> I guess that's what you get from someone who likes DOS...
06:33:37 <Rugxulo> ;-)
06:33:44 <Rugxulo> DOSEMU or DOSBox ftw!! ;-)
06:33:50 <Rugxulo> at least I ain't suggesting BefOS :-P
06:34:20 <alise_> Sgeo: Get her an iPad if and only if you are sure she will never use a computer in a greater capacity than what I have enumerated; and repent afterwards.
06:34:36 <Rugxulo> don't get one of those, they're too new, it's not something to learn on
06:34:42 <alise_> Also, call it a computer, not a souped-up phone, or she'll probably get angry.
06:34:50 <Rugxulo> at least a netbook is portable and can close its lid (thereby somewhat protecting the screen)
06:34:52 <alise_> Rugxulo: Well, the iPhone OS is not that new really.
06:35:00 <alise_> erm, the iPad is portable...
06:35:03 <alise_> And you don't "learn" the web and email.
06:35:08 <alise_> There is barely any "knowledge" in it.
06:35:44 <Sgeo> She has trouble working her (non-smart)phone..
06:35:46 <Rugxulo> believe it or not, complete newbies don't know when to double-click, how to properly turn off the computer (or shutdown the OS), what programs to open for what, etc.
06:35:56 <alise_> Of course they don't.
06:36:08 <alise_> With the iPad, you press your finger on the thing saying Safari to go on "The Internet".
06:36:26 <alise_> Then you press whatever you want to go to on the screen, or hunt-and-peck on the keyboard to use "the Google".
06:36:45 <Sgeo> I will not allow her to use wrong terminology
06:36:52 <alise_> If you want to talk to people on e-male, you press the little picture with "Mail" underneath it. Then you touch the messages you want, and press the little thing saying "Reply" to say something more.
06:37:00 <alise_> Sgeo: Hopeless. Just accept it.
06:37:27 -!- cheater3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:37:40 <alise_> Wow; I'm no longer so tired. The weird feeling of my skeletal structure is gone.
06:37:50 <alise_> Only the slight haze -- the inner yawn -- is there, of course it's the worst thing, but...
06:38:20 <Sgeo> I'm going to have to put you to sleep permanently again.
06:38:39 <alise_> hawt
06:40:30 <alise_> that's my retaliation to anything like that in future
06:40:33 <alise_> just make people feel awkward
06:40:43 <alise_> hey, i'm legal in less than two years!
06:40:44 <alise_> :P
06:43:20 <alise_> not that i'll be in this country by then
06:44:29 <Rugxulo> legal?
06:44:54 <Rugxulo> that makes me think you're ultra young
06:44:54 <alise_> I will no longer be an illegal immigrant because I will become a flower.
06:44:59 <alise_> I'm 14.
06:45:11 <Rugxulo> seriously? okay, not a huge shock, lots in here (esp. ehird) are young too
06:45:13 * Rugxulo is 30
06:45:22 <alise_> I /am/ ehird, you fool!
06:45:29 <alise_> --this nick is what we refer to as "a long story".
06:45:43 <Rugxulo> I thought he was 15 (can't remember, oh well)
06:45:58 <alise_> No; 12 and 13 are the ages I've been here.
06:46:02 <Rugxulo> maybe so
06:46:06 <pikhq> His 14th birthday was fairly recent.
06:46:10 <Rugxulo> hmmm, you strong math interest seems odd for your age ;-)
06:46:11 <alise_> Most definitely so :P
06:46:34 <Rugxulo> whatever happened to that static Linux distro you were working on? gave up?
06:46:35 <alise_> I was raped by mathematics as a young child. :|
06:46:35 <pikhq> Rugxulo: For most everyone who's in #esoteric, though?
06:46:48 <alise_> Rugxulo: I decided it wasn't worth the effort since Linux is pretty inherently shitty
06:46:57 <pikhq> I think I started coming to this channel when I was 15...
06:46:58 <alise_> and I could spend my time being slightly more annoyed at existing distros while doing more productive things
06:47:11 * bsmntbombdood taunts alise_ with tea
06:47:25 <alise_> bsmntbombdood: FUCK YOU
06:47:37 <pikhq> Rugxulo: I would've built it for curiosity's sake, but it's a major pain getting things working with just static linking.
06:47:41 <Rugxulo> alise, it's a huge undertaking to make your own distro
06:47:45 <pikhq> Especially trying to bootstrap.
06:47:49 <pikhq> Also: not really.
06:47:54 <pikhq> It's *tedious*, but not that hard.
06:48:05 <Rugxulo> very tedious and time consuming, lots of little bugs to workaround
06:48:24 <alise_> Not /huge/.
06:48:28 <Rugxulo> only good if you intend to use it full time, otherwise not worth the effort
06:48:28 <alise_> LFS has almost mechanised the process.
06:48:36 <alise_> But if you want something usable for /other people/, of course...
06:48:44 <alise_> I've never really cared much about other people. As in, in an immediate sense.
06:48:58 * pikhq is intimately familiar with *most* of the problems involved.
06:49:09 <pikhq> I have spent too much time on build automation. :P
06:49:12 <Rugxulo> there are definitely too many Linux distros, there just don't need to be 100+ Ubuntu derivatives, sheesh!!!
06:49:26 <alise_> I agree ther.
06:49:28 <Sgeo> What about Ubuntu integrals?
06:49:28 <alise_> *there
06:49:36 <alise_> Did you know you can download and install Hannah Montana Linux?
06:49:37 <alise_> Oh very yes.
06:49:42 <alise_> It's a variant of Kubuntu!
06:49:50 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Seriously.
06:50:17 <alise_> Ubuntu antidifferentiation is the result of restoring a modified Ubuntu to its stock state.
06:50:18 <pikhq> The only one I even could like on a technical level was, amusingly, Gnewsense.
06:50:24 <alise_> so what's an integral?
06:50:52 <pikhq> Because they automated their freeing-up-thing.
06:50:57 <alise_> Q : How/why did you make such a great OS?
06:50:57 <alise_> A : I thought - what would attract young users to Linux? So I created this idea after a lot of reading and work.
06:51:00 <alise_> lol
06:51:16 <pikhq> Which is at least more work than just about every other Ubuntu derivative.
06:51:37 <pikhq> (it also at least has *some* purpose, though that purpose is ideological)
06:51:52 <alise_> Oh, and the huge yawns start.
06:51:58 <alise_> I need to start taking melatonin.
06:52:05 -!- coppro has joined.
06:52:09 <alise_> It seems there is no other way I can maintain a sleep pattern, apart from authority.
06:52:22 <alise_> That's a good idea, actually. Why am I not already taking melatonin?
06:52:41 <pikhq> alise_: If it makes you feel better, "normal" sleep patterns are not feasible for teenagers outside of authority.
06:52:49 <alise_> Of course.
06:52:53 <alise_> But not sleeping at all is ludicrous.
06:53:12 <Sgeo> alise_, you're an Internet addict!
06:53:17 <pikhq> You're talking to a guy who has stayed up 30 hours for the purpose of watching a series in a single sitting.
06:53:17 <alise_> Anyway, anything is possible with melatonin :P
06:53:17 <coppro> I don't not sleep at all
06:53:19 <coppro> I don't sleep, then I get really tired and practically collapse
06:53:20 <alise_> Sgeo: ...Duh.
06:53:20 <pikhq> :P
06:53:21 <coppro> this cycle repeats itself
06:53:28 <alise_> coppro: you don't not sleep at all!
06:53:38 <coppro> yes
06:53:42 <alise_> pikhq: did it gradually get more and more arsty
06:53:45 <coppro> But I try
06:53:52 <pikhq> alise_: No.
06:53:58 <alise_> I really need to pee now, it feels like I'm pregnant
06:54:00 <alise_> but I'm still too tired
06:54:17 <pikhq> It gradually got more and more ass-pully until it got to the end, which was the most perfect ending possible.
06:54:18 <alise_> alternative hypothesis; maybe I am pregnant and this uncomfortability is the baby
06:54:30 <Rugxulo> ass-pully?
06:54:38 <alise_> See, now I just think you're talking about some weird abstract sex.
06:54:45 <coppro> which series?
06:54:53 <alise_> Ass-Pully, clearly
06:56:14 <Sgeo> "It occurs to me that this comic is starting to suck"
06:56:23 <Sgeo> Also, alise_, when you wake up, read Fine Structure?
06:56:40 <alise_> Wake up? Not before I sleep; and when I do I will then go to the unit.
06:56:46 <alise_> Sorry.
06:56:54 <alise_> So I just won't bother doing these things until I'm out of there.
06:57:01 <coppro> pikhq: what is it that you're watching?
06:57:28 * Sgeo loves how "you're" works for both present and past tense.
06:57:36 <Sgeo> Or at least, it SHOULD
06:57:51 <coppro> no
06:57:51 <pikhq> coppro: Had watched.
06:58:02 <alise_> I think pikhq is avoiding answering.
06:58:03 <Sgeo> Why shouldn't you were == you're?
06:58:10 <coppro> pikhq: Ok. What is it that you had watched?
06:58:11 <alise_> So obviously it was Ass-Pully 3: Extreme Ass Pulley Sluts
06:58:17 <alise_> A whole SERIES would you belive.
06:58:18 <Sgeo> If it's something like Elfen Lied, no one will judge
06:58:19 <alise_> *believe
06:58:25 <coppro> Sgeo: Because it doesn't. Velkommen to the English Language.
06:58:27 <alise_> Hey! You can't tell me I won't judge...
06:58:39 <alise_> I'll judge him for anything!
06:58:46 <coppro> I won't judge, unless you call a CFJ
06:59:12 <Sgeo> If it's a porn series, I'll judge you for watching for the plot.
06:59:37 <alise_> What if it's a business management course
07:00:03 <pikhq> coppro: Code Geass.
07:00:11 <coppro> heard of it. That's about all.
07:00:21 <coppro> in other news, Stargate Universe is awesome.
07:00:23 <pikhq> Season 2 had half of its plot be ass-pulls.
07:00:24 <alise_> co-educational gas
07:00:47 <Sgeo> Finished watching SG-1 the other day
07:00:53 <coppro> They pulled the same plot twist for the second episode in a row this week. It was beautiful.
07:01:09 <alise_> coppro: isn't that ... bad writing
07:01:25 <Sgeo> I have a friend who likes SGU
07:02:18 <coppro> alise_: No, given the nature of the twist
07:02:30 <alise_> The twist is ...
07:02:31 <alise_> THERE IS
07:02:31 <alise_> NO
07:02:32 <alise_> TWIST
07:02:55 <Sgeo> Is there a twist involved in the same twist happening twice?
07:03:17 <coppro> well... it's not really so much a twist as messing with your expectations of the plot. But it's sufficiently significant for it to warrant the designation.
07:05:09 <coppro> (If you really care, I'll tell you what it is in PM)
07:05:24 <Sgeo> Sure
07:05:28 <alise_> Sure, feel free. I won't watch it.
07:05:31 <alise_> Oh, him.
07:10:49 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: bored).
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08:05:17 -!- coppro has joined.
08:05:42 <alise_> now my pee-need-o-meter is at defcon 24; my sleep-need-o-meter is at 3+4i
08:05:43 <myndzi> | |
08:05:43 <myndzi> /< /|
08:05:50 <alise_> thank you, myndzi.
08:05:56 <coppro> wow, I am tired
08:06:04 <coppro> I hit
08:06:06 <alise_> coppro: why?
08:06:11 <coppro> sleep
08:06:19 <alise_> You hit the sleep button.
08:06:20 <coppro> instead of going to bed
08:06:33 <alise_> wut
08:06:42 <coppro> alise_: because I'm tired
08:06:44 <coppro> on my computer
08:06:45 <coppro> I put my computer to sleep
08:06:47 <coppro> instead of myself
08:06:49 <alise_> ah
08:06:50 <alise_> lol
08:07:04 <coppro> also fuck I have so much work to do
08:08:12 <Sgeo> alise_, SLEEP
08:08:20 <alise_> Sgeo: At 8 am? Ludicrous.
08:08:30 * Sgeo has done that before
08:08:57 <alise_> Yes, but it leads to you waking up at times inopportune for getting a good NIGHT'S sleep the following - well, not following now - day.
08:18:15 <coppro> why is the harp so awesome?
08:18:22 <alise_> it isn't
08:18:32 <Rugxulo> heh
08:20:49 * Rugxulo thinks he just saved even *more* bytes by doing some weird trickery (inspired by loose understanding of Forth threading models)
08:21:03 <Rugxulo> was 1014 bytes, now 980, and it seems to (still) work!
08:21:05 <Rugxulo> not easy to do
08:21:08 <coppro> harps are amazing
08:21:14 <Rugxulo> oops, 982
08:21:22 <coppro> like, flute-level awesome
08:21:42 <coppro> actually, more awesome than the flute
08:22:42 <Rugxulo> and compression makes it worse, go figure
08:22:54 <Rugxulo> is a harp like crazy mad hard to change the strings??
08:22:58 <Rugxulo> *isn't
08:23:01 <coppro> probably
08:23:18 <Rugxulo> sorry, I misunderstood, thought you were messing with a real harp
08:23:18 <coppro> could care less though
08:23:22 <coppro> no
08:23:32 <coppro> I'm just rambling now
08:26:45 <coppro> but seriously, the harp is awesome
08:26:59 <alise_> i think my bladder is in serious danger
08:27:00 <Rugxulo> listing to some music?
08:27:13 * alise_ thinks
08:27:14 <alise_> ...
08:27:14 <alise_> danger is not a good thing
08:27:17 <alise_> nor are serious things
08:27:22 <alise_> therefore, serious danger must be doubly bad
08:27:24 <alise_> do my legs work?
08:27:38 <alise_> i don't know...
08:27:50 <Rugxulo> gah, now the Befunge benchmark is slow again (back to self-modifying speeds)
08:28:42 * Rugxulo just assumes it's the P4's fault
08:32:01 <pikhq> The P4's performance gets screwed by minor things like "branch misses".
08:32:11 <pikhq> Erm. Branch prediction misses.
08:32:21 <alise_> why did they even make the P4?
08:32:24 <pikhq> Most other CPUs are hurt by it, but the P4 gets completely *screwed* by it.
08:32:45 <pikhq> alise_: Because clock rate = speed!
08:33:20 <pikhq> The Pentium 4 went up to a *31-stage* pipeline.
08:33:32 <Rugxulo> note to fizzie (if you're log reading), I can't get be.fs to work with GForth or pForth
08:33:52 <alise_> brb pee time nao
08:34:01 <Rugxulo> they made the P4 to be able to scale to 10 Ghz
08:34:09 <Rugxulo> hence they simplified the logic somewhat (I think)
08:34:37 <Rugxulo> but they broke some common optimizations, introduced a trace cache, no barrel shifter (?), etc.
08:34:39 <pikhq> They made the pipeline so deep for the sole purpose of getting the clockrate to go up.
08:35:18 <Rugxulo> Prescott went to ~3.4 Ghz, but that was too hot, so they abandoned that and went back to Pentium-M for further work ("Core" 1, 2)
08:35:39 <pikhq> (deep pipeline means you can do fewer instructions per clock which means you can do a significantly higher clockrate)
08:36:31 <pikhq> This was all obviously a dead end. They had to go back to a Pentium III design just to get decent performance...
08:37:05 <pikhq> God. 31 stage pipeline...
08:37:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:38:44 * pikhq should sleep
08:39:05 <oerjan> but it's such a lovely morning!
08:39:10 * oerjan cackles evilly
08:39:28 <oerjan> on actually looking, it seems a bit grey
08:40:19 <oerjan> presently no hailstones like yesterday though
08:45:23 <Rugxulo> I assume all the hullabaloo over Ejfasflaskdjfasd has blown over by now?
08:45:45 <Rugxulo> (U.S. is all concerned over big oil spill headed our way)
08:47:34 <oerjan> Rugxulo: what i've vaguely picked up is (1) the volcano has calmed down a bit (2) the wind doesn't blow directly to europe at the time, probably (3) they did actual tests and found out it's not as dangerous to planes as they feared
08:48:51 <oerjan> "headed" your way? i seemed to have read it had landed...
08:49:19 <Rugxulo> honestly, it's so boring a story, and the news never gets to the point, beats around the bush like crazy, so I'm too lazy to sit there for hours wondering wtf ...
08:49:58 <Rugxulo> at one time somebody said they were gonna light it all on fire to "help", but I guess they never did that
08:50:38 <oerjan> norway cares deeply about oil spills though. there is this island archipelago Lofoten, and the question of whether to drill close to it (there are _huge_ fisheries there, not to mention a prime tourist destination) is majorly divisive in our politics
08:51:01 <oerjan> so this US oil spill will probably shift our political balance a bit
08:51:38 <Rugxulo> they claim it's probably worse than the Exxon Valdez spill from way back
08:51:58 <Rugxulo> what really gets me is that people (restaurants) are already being told to form class action lawsuits, ugh
08:52:20 <oerjan> well _that_ is a US thing :D D:
08:54:02 <coppro> Rugxulo: report I just read earlier says it's not yet as bad as Exxon Valdez, but it will get there if it doesn't get controlled soon, and that doesn't seem likely
08:55:02 <Rugxulo> well pardon my ignorance, but lighting it on fire does NOT seem like the answer
08:55:07 <oerjan> (on the one hand they want to drill near Lofoten, on the other hand they want to get it onto the Unesco world heritage list)
08:55:12 <Rugxulo> maybe it is, who knows, but it just sounds dumb
08:55:37 <Rugxulo> need for oil is just too prevalent, cars are everywhere
08:55:42 <alise_> back
08:56:17 <alise_> pikhq: hey yeah you said a couple of hours :)
08:56:20 <oerjan> alise_: shouldn't _you_ sleep? or maybe you already have
08:56:22 <alise_> anyway
08:56:28 <alise_> oerjan: almost 9am; no point
08:56:38 <oerjan> mhm
08:56:39 <alise_> I really, really need to start taking melatonin
08:58:08 <alise_> seriously, ridiculous.
08:58:14 <oerjan> hm maybe i should try that some time
08:59:02 <alise_> yeah according to the infallible god of gwern speaking on less wrong, you take it and half an hour later you're asleep, no getting out of it
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08:59:14 <alise_> so it's basically a way of taking advantage of the fact that you can make a good decision about your bedtime /before/ the fact...
08:59:46 <alise_> certainly I don't see myself avoiding taking it; after all, I want to sleep at some point, I just hate the whole going-to-bed-and-not-sleeping thing.
09:00:36 <Sgeo> alise_, I googled melatonin, and the picture wasn't QUITE as rosy, don't remember why
09:00:41 <Sgeo> Also, I should sleep
09:00:57 <alise_> Is that "not QUITE as rosy" as in "bad bad bad", or "watch out slightly..."?
09:01:01 <alise_> I should just ask gwern.
09:01:11 <Sgeo> "watch out slightly"
09:01:14 <Sgeo> Don't remember why
09:01:28 <alise_> Anyway, unless it has permanent side effects, I don't really care; if they cause any temporary ones, I'd simply discontinue taking them.
09:02:21 <alise_> While the packaging of melatonin often warns against use in children, at least one long-term study[86] does assess effectiveness and safety in children. No serious safety concerns were noted in any of the 94 cases studied by means of a structured questionnaire for the parents. With a mean follow up time of 3.7 years, long-term medication was effective against sleep onset problems in 88% of the cases.
09:02:26 <alise_> that's good to know
09:05:28 <Sgeo> Night all
09:05:34 <alise_> aw; night
09:08:40 <alise_> green, fleshy matter
09:09:39 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I don't logread, but I usually notice mentions of my name; in any case, yes, I'm not terribly surprised that's the case. I'll see if I can make a better one one of these days.
09:09:58 <alise_> i want to drink pure liquid condensed sleep ... warm
09:11:14 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I'm not 100% sure what each threading model means in Forth, but I did something similar and shrank BEFI.COM to 982 bytes (but the benchmark is slow on P4 again, meh)
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09:11:52 <Rugxulo> not that you care, of course, but hey, *I* found it interesting ;-))
09:11:59 <fizzie> Hm, mayhaps I should look at size-optimizing an interpreter too. Too much to do, again.
09:12:12 <Rugxulo> step one: kick GCC to the door ;-)
09:12:21 <Rugxulo> well ... or use dietlibc
09:12:41 <Rugxulo> (although I actually compiled fbbi in dietlibc on PuppyLinux yesterday, buggy / segfaulted)
09:12:57 <fizzie> I could hand-craft something for ARM, the Thumb instruction set there is supposedly quite economical.
09:13:05 <Rugxulo> actually, I think OpenWatcom has some pretty small code generation (static ELF for Linux, too)
09:13:25 <Rugxulo> 1.9rc5 was just released, probably final RC until 1.9 proper
09:13:46 <alise_> I wish there was something meant for humans in between ASM and C.
09:13:58 <Rugxulo> well, it depends
09:14:14 <Rugxulo> inline asm? shortcut mini-langs like Context or C-- ?
09:14:28 <coppro> LLVM IR?
09:14:35 <alise_> inline asm still carries all the semantic & code-size baggage of C, and the language inside it is not really a midpoint;
09:14:36 <Rugxulo> C isn't so bad, it's the damn C libraries that are so hugely bloated
09:14:41 <alise_> C-- is not human-usable in the slightest;
09:14:46 <alise_> LLVM IR even lessso.
09:14:51 <alise_> Wow, lessso.
09:14:54 <alise_> That is some word.
09:14:55 <coppro> nice
09:14:57 <Rugxulo> C-- is usable, sure, no worse than asm (or HLL asm)
09:15:08 <alise_> But it's obviously designed for machines.
09:15:12 <alise_> It has annoying inconveniences for human use.
09:15:13 <fizzie> Speaking of Unicode (which was spoken of at some point yesterday); recently I've been dabbling on a .NET implementation of Glass (Glass#?) -- to make .NET programming a bit more bearable, y'know -- and to avoid conflicts between housekeeping stuff and user-defined-in-Glass stuff, I prefixed all the Glass-defined names with the glottal stop character ʔ; it was the first Unicode character I came across that had a name starting with "gl".
09:15:19 <Rugxulo> I meant Sphinx C--
09:15:23 <alise_> I'd totally write my own libc, but I don't want to fuck with syscalls and the like.
09:15:34 <alise_> Rugxulo: then I know not of it.
09:15:41 <alise_> I know it exists, yes; but none of the details.
09:15:47 <alise_> fizzie: should have found some dingbat for a wine glass or something
09:16:00 <fizzie> Possibly. I can still change it.
09:16:31 <Rugxulo> http://c--sphinx.narod.ru/indexe.htm
09:16:57 <Rugxulo> glottal stop looks like a question mark to me
09:17:11 <alise_> it looks like a question mark that fell and got its dot squished
09:17:18 <alise_> poor thing
09:17:26 <Rugxulo> crazy idea for an esolang: all a-based letters for instructions (a grave, a breve, etc.)
09:17:33 <alise_> Rugxulo: And here it is possible to look last year's news.
09:18:01 <alise_> C-- is just for Windows. Unacceptable.
09:18:12 <fizzie> There's the cup, ☕, but that's undeniably a cup, not a glass. The only thing that has the world "glass" in UnicodeData.txt is the hourglass, ⌛.
09:18:17 <alise_> And last release 1996; quite dire.
09:18:26 <coppro> hourglasses are awesome. go for it
09:18:28 <alise_> fizzie: call the compiler hour, or sand, then
09:18:33 <coppro> Rugxulo: that sounds like YABFV
09:18:39 <Rugxulo> "ha.zip (40k)HA archiver (1.5 times faster than the original)."
09:18:48 <Rugxulo> that was rewritten in C--
09:18:55 <Rugxulo> but I don't think it's any faster on modern machines, only old ones
09:19:00 <alise_> ha ha ha
09:19:24 <alise_> I guess stripped-down C with a much lighter library would be what I want
09:19:27 <Rugxulo> alise, no, not 1996, there is a circa 2003 release or such (I forget exactly)
09:19:36 <alise_> (like, ideally most of the library functions would be inline)
09:19:48 <Rugxulo> it's basically a C subset closely bound to assembly, almost like a HLL assembler with flow control
09:20:13 <Rugxulo> I think the *nix asmutils project has a tiny libc, and dietlibc implements a lot of stuff in assembly
09:20:27 <alise_> yes, asmutils has a tiny libc
09:20:31 <alise_> I can never use dietlibc because of its license.
09:20:33 <Rugxulo> 1996 was Celik's last version, I think, later maintained by new dude
09:20:38 <Rugxulo> GPL?
09:20:55 <coppro> alise_: If IR wasn't meant to be written, why does it exist? Far easier for a program to generate LLVM code directly
09:20:57 <alise_> Yes, not even LGPL; and the guy is clearly quite mad, saying it's to stop Microsoft stealing his code.
09:21:09 <alise_> coppro: Insanity/stupidity!
09:21:21 <Rugxulo> P.S. ha (C-- rewrite) was a lot faster than original on my 486, but 7-Zip is like 2x faster still (and better compression)
09:21:41 <Rugxulo> yes, I know, he dislikes MS
09:22:05 <coppro> lol
09:22:11 <Rugxulo> I'll admit, some things should never be GPL if you intend wide use ... but GPL is a political force, so it's pretty much everywhere (and not really unreasonable for most things)
09:22:35 <alise_> Yes, but what /is/ unreasonable for my use is using a libc that requires all my code to be under the Holy Oversight of rms' license.
09:22:47 <alise_> You cannot even distribute OTHER PEOPLE'S CODE compiled with dietlibc, if it is not GPL.
09:22:56 <alise_> So it is COMPLETELY useless for any distribution, for one.
09:23:04 <alise_> (Linux distro, that is)
09:23:04 <Rugxulo> yes
09:23:11 <coppro> that's pretty dumb
09:23:12 <alise_> I mean, I love the code -
09:23:12 <Rugxulo> but most Linux geeks prefer GPL anyways
09:23:15 <alise_> but the ideology spoilt it.
09:23:23 <Rugxulo> assembly isn't really that bad
09:23:27 <alise_> Yes, but most Linux geeks - in fact almost ALL, even rms -
09:23:29 <coppro> I like GPL, but for a libc? bleh
09:23:32 <alise_> say that you should use LGPL for licenses
09:23:43 <alise_> because that's why it was created: because the GPL was worthless for licenses
09:23:43 <Rugxulo> RMS is so pedantic as to not use a computer whose BIOS isn't even open (which most aren't)
09:23:43 <alise_> simple
09:23:55 <coppro> right
09:23:56 <alise_> Not pedantry; zealotry.
09:24:02 * Rugxulo doesn't think Linux even uses the BIOS, even at bootup???
09:24:06 <alise_> And while I dislike the man, I'd feel uneasy if /someone/ wasn't doing it.
09:24:16 <coppro> RMS is so zealous that he won't even use a non-open BIOS, and yet even he advocates the LGPL
09:24:36 <alise_> And it really /is/ a shame, because the code was so nice.
09:25:06 <alise_> And I would love to use it, but even if I committed to using GPL for all my own stuff -- which I won't, I simply strongly dislike the license -- I can't change other people's licenses, and so I could not make the distribution I wanted to.
09:25:07 <Rugxulo> we're still stuck with lousy software patents (at least in U.S.)
09:25:20 <alise_> Nobody would have been harmed had I been able to link other people's non-GPL code with dietlibc.
09:25:31 <alise_> It would not be tainted in any way; in fact, it'd probably be a nice little microdistro.
09:25:42 <Rugxulo> well, all licenses are fairly useless and counter-productive, IMHO, because they only deal with stupid stuff
09:25:42 <alise_> And so that's the sacrifice you make when you use GPL in situations where it's inappropriate:
09:25:49 <alise_> Your ideology maintained; at the cost of uselessness.
09:26:01 <alise_> I just use MIT or WTFPL depending on my mood.
09:26:05 <Rugxulo> anything can be abused, GPL or not
09:26:12 <Rugxulo> so a license can't stop that anyways
09:26:13 <alise_> WTFPL cannot be abused, certainly.
09:26:28 <Rugxulo> I mean used in a negative manner towards someone else (e.g. viruses)
09:26:31 <alise_> yeah, precisely
09:26:46 <alise_> and really... when is microsoft going to "steal" some linux-specific minimalist libc
09:27:02 <alise_> in fact i think a lot of the "bad corporations STEALING!!" fluff from gpl advocates is basically egoism...
09:27:03 <Rugxulo> if they haven't already ... various companies have done that before
09:27:13 <alise_> "I made this code; it's mine; you MUST acknowledge it's mine by not doing things I don't like with it"
09:27:16 <alise_> get over it, seriously
09:27:27 <alise_> in the long term you are not harmed
09:27:35 <Rugxulo> the whole purpose of Gzip / Deflate was to have an unpatented compression method, and MS definitely uses it, enjoys all the benefits, but patents everything else out the wazoo
09:27:42 <alise_> yeah, so?
09:27:43 <alise_> who is harmed?
09:27:50 <Rugxulo> by patents? everybody
09:27:52 <alise_> who would care if not for a sense of attachment they have to their code?
09:27:54 <Rugxulo> by them using Gzip? nobody
09:27:57 <alise_> Rugxulo: but that's unrelated
09:28:00 <alise_> the latter is what i'm talking about
09:28:06 <alise_> of course, patents are completely useless and the whole system should be abolished
09:28:13 <alise_> so is copyright though :P
09:28:20 <alise_> "Welcome to the home of my Scheme interpreter/compiler, 'dream', written in x86 machine language. :-) "
09:28:21 <alise_> impressive
09:28:23 <Rugxulo> I'll admit, we're wasting a lot of effort reinventing the wheel over silly incompatible licenses (even GPLv2 vs. v3)
09:28:24 <alise_> All essential syntax and procedures from the R4RS standard are implemented.
09:28:25 <alise_> The interpreter is properly tail recursive and passes all applicable tests from the 'r4rstest.scm' test suite.
09:28:25 <alise_> Rational arithmetic with 32 bit magnitude numerator and denominator, or up to 262112 bit magnitude if the GMP library is available, is supported (with sign stored separately), but no Real or Complex numbers (these currently are in the works).
09:29:38 <coppro> roller coaster tycoon!
09:29:50 <Rugxulo> fizzie, did you see my latest (lame) B93 creation?
09:29:50 <alise_> fuck yeah
09:29:53 <alise_> <3
09:29:56 <alise_> marry me
09:30:04 <Rugxulo> coppro, huh?
09:30:06 <Rugxulo> heh
09:30:12 <alise_> Rugxulo: was written entirely in asm
09:30:26 <coppro> friggin awesome game too
09:30:28 <Rugxulo> roller coaster tycoon?
09:30:29 <coppro> yes
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09:30:34 <alise_> yes
09:30:39 <alise_> a game.
09:30:40 <Rugxulo> people do write big projects in asm
09:30:50 <Rugxulo> it's just not as heavily publicized as (C,C++,Java, etc.)
09:31:04 <alise_> they're mad though
09:31:06 <alise_> sometimes mad in a good way
09:31:11 <coppro> yeah
09:31:16 <coppro> like Mr. Sawyer
09:31:56 <Rugxulo> fizzie: http://www.pastebin.org/197670
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09:32:48 <alise_> coppro: you might as well marry me, nobody else will {this is how twisted joke logic works without sleep}
09:32:58 <alise_> see, i scared him off.
09:34:31 * Rugxulo loves how his browser has to download several hundred kb of ads just to download a 20k file
09:34:42 <alise_> block them?
09:37:05 <Rugxulo> this new Opera 10.5 interface is a bit "hidden" by default, so it's slightly more cumbersome to find stuff
09:38:38 <alise_> *10.50
09:38:43 <alise_> way past 10.5.
09:39:58 <Rugxulo> I meant 10.5x
09:40:24 <Rugxulo> 10.52, build 3370
09:44:55 <Rugxulo> bah, stupid Javascript Befunge (buggy)
09:45:25 <Rugxulo> did you hear the hugely funny irony that Parrot's Befunge only had like two tests while HQ9+ had 13?
09:45:47 <alise_> not /that/ funny
09:46:03 <Rugxulo> well how hard do you have to test a HQ9+ interpreter?????
09:46:29 <alise_> ld: i386 architecture of input file `libc.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 out
09:46:31 <alise_> HOW DO I FIX TIHS
09:46:32 <alise_> *THIS
09:46:33 <alise_> :(
09:46:47 <Rugxulo> what are you trying to do?
09:46:56 <Rugxulo> "-m32" flag???
09:47:50 <alise_> does that work for ld
09:49:10 <Rugxulo> maybe, not sure honestly (don't use *nix much, esp. not 64-bit)
09:49:54 <Rugxulo> apparently "ld -A ARCH" or "--architecture ARCH" is supported
09:49:57 <alise_> yay, -melf_i386 works
09:50:02 <alise_> how you know apt has finished installing your package: update manager pops up
09:50:41 <alise_> $ ./libc.so.0
09:50:41 <alise_> a r e y o u s i c k ?
09:50:42 <alise_> yes
09:50:55 <alise_> wtf, only 19k
09:50:58 <alise_> too small :|
09:51:06 <Rugxulo> ?
09:51:10 <alise_> now how do i statically link with it??? oh of course, libc.a is already there
09:51:12 <alise_> Rugxulo: for a libc :P
09:51:26 <Rugxulo> gcc -static, ld -static
09:51:30 <alise_> i know
09:51:35 <Rugxulo> (and apparently, as I found out yesterday, you have to use -all-static for libtool)
09:51:51 <Rugxulo> else it's only static for external stuff, not libc etc.
09:52:51 <alise_> /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory
09:52:52 <alise_> grr
09:53:12 <Rugxulo> you must have to install the 32-bit libs and headers and such
09:53:21 <Rugxulo> (if AnMaster gets here, he can probably help)
09:53:30 <alise_> yeah but i already have a 32-bit libc
09:53:32 <alise_> just the stupid gnu headers
09:54:06 <alise_> ia32-libs is already the newest version.
09:54:06 <alise_> ia32-libs set to manually installed.
09:54:45 <alise_> ah, i need some sort of glibc devel
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09:55:15 <Rugxulo> Linux is so developer unfriendly sometimes
09:57:07 <alise_> like windows isn't
09:57:18 <Rugxulo> it all is
09:57:42 <Rugxulo> it seems developers are the least of all to properly make it easy to compile anything
09:57:53 <alise_> /usr/bin/ld: errno: TLS definition in /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.3.3/../../../../lib32/libc.a(errno.o) section .tbss mismatches non-TLS reference in /home/jane/asmutils-0.18/lib/libc.a(libc.o)
09:57:54 <alise_> watttttttttttt
09:58:08 <fizzie> libc6-dev-i386, but you probably found that already.
09:58:21 <Rugxulo> probably an incompatibility in asmutils' libc
09:58:28 <alise_> incompatibility howso
09:58:46 <Rugxulo> well, for one, I've never even heard of .tbss
09:58:53 <Rugxulo> but TLS maybe means thread local storage??
09:59:22 <Rugxulo> what exactly are you trying to build?
09:59:32 <alise_> not thread local storage i am sure, this is ld errors
09:59:38 <alise_> just a simple binary with asmutils libc.
09:59:56 <Rugxulo> like I said, OpenWatcom is probably a better idea, but that's just MHO
10:00:17 <alise_> on linux? ha
10:00:24 <Rugxulo> seriously, it has Linux binaries now
10:01:36 <Rugxulo> http://owbuilder.malakovi.cz/snapshot/binl/
10:01:57 <Rugxulo> although the proper installers (e.g. Win32, OS/2, DOS) should have all host files also (last I checked, 1.8 did)
10:02:14 <Rugxulo> the installers are actually just .ZIP sfx files, IIRC
10:02:31 <alise_> openwatcom is just /not/ in any universe i'm in or want to bein
10:02:33 <alise_> *be in
10:02:56 <Rugxulo> why not? it produces small code, and static ELF for Linux, to boot
10:03:19 <alise_> oh, of course, i forgot -nostdlib
10:03:24 <alise_> only one problem left
10:03:25 <alise_> /usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 00000000080480c0
10:03:26 <Rugxulo> of course, if you rely on ./configure or POSIX instead of just ANSI or C99, you're out of luck
10:03:29 <alise_> but hey, it almost works
10:03:34 <alise_> $ ./hello
10:03:34 <alise_> Hello, world! 4286731992
10:03:35 <alise_> Segmentation fault
10:04:12 <Rugxulo> you still never said what exactly you're trying to build
10:04:34 <Rugxulo> http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Exploring_Windows_3.x
10:04:50 <Rugxulo> first freakin' sentence of the article: "Windows 3.x is, thankfully, obsolete."
10:04:53 <Rugxulo> ;-)
10:04:59 <alise_> I did say it
10:05:15 <alise_> <alise_> just a simple binary with asmutils libc.
10:05:21 <Rugxulo> yes, but you didn't say what
10:06:11 <alise_> jane@jane-desktop:~/code/libc$ wc -c hello
10:06:11 <alise_> 20266 hello
10:06:12 <alise_> jane@jane-desktop:~/code/libc$ wc -c hello.diet
10:06:12 <alise_> 11692 hello.diet
10:06:17 <alise_> diet libc is slimmer than asmutils.
10:06:22 <alise_> even with prinf.
10:06:24 <alise_> *printf
10:06:35 <alise_> also, diet is 64-bit if you want.
10:08:15 <alise_> to be quite honest trying to improve the libc is utter folly
10:08:19 <alise_> as it's so hideously broken in many, many ways
10:09:33 <Rugxulo> the idea of libc in general or just Linux libc?
10:09:50 <alise_> the functions etc. in the specification of the c library.
10:10:14 <alise_> to start with, buffer overflows galore; secondly, many inconsistencies; thirdly, no real concept of "string" but plenty of functions purporting to operate on """"strings""""...
10:10:17 <Rugxulo> obviously many (esp. GNU dudes) are more POSIX-oriented these days
10:10:17 <alise_> the list goes on
10:10:32 <alise_> oh, and complaings 5-500: gets() exists/existed at some point
10:10:37 <alise_> *complaints
10:10:42 <alise_> basically it's a horribly designed library in every wya.
10:10:44 <alise_> *way
10:10:46 <Rugxulo> yes, I knew you'd mention that one ;-)
10:11:04 <Rugxulo> you don't have to use it exclusively ... heck, some people use both C and assembly intermixed
10:11:13 <Rugxulo> mostly for OS portability (see Paul Carter's tutorial)
10:11:21 <alise_> i don't care; it's still an abomination because a perfectly good library-for-C COULD be made.
10:11:52 <Rugxulo> http://fasmlib.x86asm.net/ (but it's dead)
10:15:55 <Rugxulo> no more updates will be coming, but it looks nice
10:17:06 <alise_> fprintc(f, c); fprints(f, s); fprintf(f, fmt, ...); printc(c); prints(s); printf(fmt, ...);
10:17:11 <alise_> ^ can't even get simple consistent naming right.
10:17:55 <Rugxulo> putc, puts
10:18:07 <Rugxulo> which are a macro and (fairly useless) function
10:18:09 <alise_> are you trying to /rebut/ my point?
10:18:14 <alise_> also, puts is perfectly useful.
10:18:23 <Rugxulo> useful, yes, but not often
10:20:45 <alise_> oh, and of course, f?prints would not print a newline, as there is clearly no call for it to do so...
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10:39:30 <alise_> .
10:44:42 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> (if AnMaster gets here, he can probably help) <-- hi
10:44:45 <AnMaster> help with what?
10:49:22 <alise_> AnMaster never helps!
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10:55:33 <alise_> COMPUTERS SUCK
11:15:33 <alise_> like
11:15:39 <alise_> seriously.
11:18:10 <alise_> .
11:20:46 <alise_> fff who wants to join me in my quest to make computers awesome :P
11:37:12 <alise_> ugh coq is so suboptimal
11:39:23 <alise_> specifically
11:39:27 <alise_> asserts should be transparent
11:39:29 <alise_> but they're opaque
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12:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Ackerman function for? What is interesting about it other than the fact that it generates really huge numbers really quickly?
12:05:22 <alise_> First computable, non-primitive-recursive function discovered.
12:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And that means?
12:06:13 <alise_> It's maths/CS stuff.
12:06:25 <alise_> Basically people thought primitive-recursive = computable, but it turns out it's a subset.
12:06:38 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_recursive_function
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12:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you learn this stuff?
12:08:37 <hiato> alise_: it wasn't the first
12:10:21 <alise_> hiato: first discovered, it was.
12:10:21 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: study CS/maths.
12:10:21 <alise_> mostly CS.
12:10:22 <alise_> but, like, computability-oriented CS is basically mathematics.
12:10:44 <hiato> alise_: I'm sure it was not. But let me check
12:11:02 <hiato> alise_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan_function
12:11:06 <hiato> Tha was
12:11:19 <alise_> Fair enough.
12:11:27 <alise_> In the late 1920s, the mathematicians Gabriel Sudan and Wilhelm Ackermann, students of David Hilbert, were studying the foundations of computation. Sudan is credited with inventing the lesser-known Sudan function, the first published function that is recursive but not primitive recursive. Shortly afterwards and independently, in 1928, Ackermann published his own recursive but not primitive recursive function.[2]
12:11:29 <alise_> Not so far apart.
12:12:19 <hiato> I'm afraid being right or wrong is absolute here :P
12:12:47 <alise_> Yes, but I mean, it was independent.
12:12:50 <alise_> So that's the interest, still.
12:12:52 <alise_> I'm tired, anyway.
12:13:08 <hiato> Heh
12:13:27 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: gonna remove HAL).
12:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't let him at the life support!
12:16:31 -!- hiato has joined.
12:16:49 <alise_> daisy, daisy
12:16:51 <alise_> give me your answer do
12:16:51 <alise_> etc
12:17:28 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato: How's the omnipotent superbeing thing?
12:17:56 <alise_> hey, I was just dying over here
12:18:08 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: heh, no more :P
12:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_: Don't worry, you come back in the next book.
12:18:34 <alise_> You guys don't even know what happens when he's unplugged? Sheesh.
12:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes!
12:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I've forgotten the exact details, though.
12:19:39 <alise_> I'm talking about the film; I'm too uncouth to read the book.
12:19:43 <alise_> Anyway,
12:19:44 <alise_> <alise_> daisy, daisy
12:19:44 <alise_> <alise_> give me your answer do
12:19:44 <alise_> <alise_> etc
12:20:28 * Phantom_Hoover pulls out the rest of alise_'s brain.
12:20:50 * Phantom_Hoover enters Monolith.
12:21:06 <alise_> [film stops making even the slightest amount of sense]
12:21:29 * Phantom_Hoover watches what looks like space eggs being broken.
12:21:59 * Phantom_Hoover looks at weirdly-coloured landscapes
12:22:28 * Phantom_Hoover lands in inexplicable hotel
12:22:46 <alise_> [things, happen
12:22:47 <alise_> [things, happen]
12:22:56 * Phantom_Hoover dies of old age
12:23:16 <alise_> [credits]
12:23:19 * Phantom_Hoover comes back at space embryo
12:23:33 <alise_> YOU MAKE NO SENSE
12:23:39 <Phantom_Hoover> s/at/as/
12:24:37 * Phantom_Hoover shakes head in sorrow at quality of next film
12:25:13 <Phantom_Hoover> For heaven's sake, was it *that* hard for them to remember that there is no sound in space?
12:26:44 <alise_> [somewhere, sometime, somebody synchs up a certain Pink Floyd song, and rewinds]
12:26:44 <alise_> Ping! ... Ping!
12:26:45 <alise_> [lots of Pings, lots of stuff]
12:26:45 <alise_> overhead the albatross etc.
12:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> ???
12:30:34 <alise_> :|
12:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
12:30:43 <alise_> "Echoes" "supposedly" synchronises with the last part.
12:30:55 <alise_> I'm not so sure it does but it sure was trippy
12:32:53 <hiato> wth are you guys on about?
12:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a language called C Major?
12:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> If not, there must be one.
12:33:12 <alise_> hiato: 2001, & Pink Floyd in my case; & their respective relationships.
12:33:37 <hiato> alise_: Right.
12:33:48 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: D Minor
12:34:06 <hiato> i think that's miniD
12:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Bleugh, Microsoft.
12:36:26 <alise_> D != MS
12:36:26 <alise_> ?
12:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but according to Google Dminor is a Microsoft language.
12:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/downloads/cd60cdb0-353f-48b3-81d7-177621eba1bf/default.aspx
12:41:27 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: lol, really? I made that up :P
12:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
12:41:39 <hiato> well, evidentally not
12:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I am appalled.
12:42:03 <hiato> at?
12:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Your *lying*!
12:42:17 <hiato> How accurate my imagination can be?
12:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you were wrong in every specific.
12:42:54 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: brb, need to kill screen).
12:43:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm I think it might be a good idea to call C# D♭ instead
12:43:13 -!- hiato has joined.
12:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, I like that one.
12:43:20 <AnMaster> (the language D♭ that is)
12:43:24 <AnMaster> s/ / /
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12:46:52 <hiato> AnMaster: I'll have you know that due to your silly unicode error there, FFX now thhinks the bloody log is a binary file
12:47:06 <AnMaster> hiato, ffx?
12:47:15 <AnMaster> hiato, also afaik that was proper unicode?
12:47:22 <AnMaster> at least my client is set to send unicode
12:47:22 <hiato> Or, perhaps it was myndzi
12:47:30 <AnMaster> "Current charset: UTF-8"
12:47:31 <hiato> AnMaster: Firefox
12:47:34 <hiato> Hmmm
12:47:38 <hiato> that it was myndzi
12:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato: FFX doesn't think the logs are Uniode.
12:47:52 <hiato> Yeah, he had escape characters
12:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> s/Uniode/Unicode
12:47:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, uniode! :D
12:48:04 <hiato> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.05.02
12:48:10 <AnMaster> like a diode but only one direction? ;)
12:48:13 <hiato> I get it as a bin file
12:48:36 <AnMaster> hiato, can't do anything about that *shrug*
12:48:51 <AnMaster> also unicode is fairly common in here
12:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you type lambda on an X11 keyboard.
12:49:24 <hiato> AnMaster: I know, but it's just strange that it was now picked up as binary mime type
12:49:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm, compose key if only I could get it to read my customisations of that
12:49:45 <AnMaster> :/
12:49:50 <hiato> fdulu@chippy> file 10.05.02 ---> 10.05.02: data
12:50:11 <AnMaster> hiato, try removing my line from it and see what happens
12:50:16 <AnMaster> it shouldn't matter
12:50:42 <hiato> meh I just rm'd it, but okay
12:51:28 <hiato> fdulu@chippy> file 10.05.02 --> 10.05.02: UTF-8 Unicode English text, with very long lines
12:51:38 <hiato> Proof if ever were one needed :P
12:52:08 <AnMaster> hm
12:52:17 <AnMaster> hiato, well I know I sent it as unicode
12:52:24 <AnMaster> so maybe file is broken
12:52:34 <hiato> Hmmm
12:52:46 <hiato> Naah, it was myndzi liens, not yours
12:52:51 <hiato> *lines
12:52:57 <AnMaster> see
12:53:52 <AnMaster> btw checking my own log files (rotated monthly) for freenode: http://sprunge.us/gYNb
12:53:58 <AnMaster> quite interesting stats
12:54:09 <AnMaster> I wonder how it concluded it was C code...
12:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you use sort -n twice?
12:55:45 <hiato> what ISO standard are you guys using?
12:56:12 <hiato> 646 8859 10646?
12:56:21 <alise_> 4
12:56:37 <hiato> alise_: ?
12:56:44 <alise_> that is the standard
12:56:48 <hiato> Oh
12:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Abbreviation of journal titles?
12:56:58 <hiato> then whta the hell is all theis stuff
12:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently nonstandardly abbreviated journal titles.
12:57:27 <hiato> hmm
12:57:51 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you use sort -n twice? <-- uniq -c in between
12:57:53 <AnMaster> that is why
12:58:00 <AnMaster> of course the first one could have been just sort
12:58:03 <hiato> ok, romeone do me a favour, open up xfotset and took at rgstry
12:58:03 <AnMaster> without the -n
12:58:07 <hiato> *someone
12:58:14 <hiato> *xfontsel
12:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, ISO standards are boring. ISO 2: Twist directions for yarns.
12:58:43 <AnMaster> eh?
12:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ISO 6: Film speed.
12:59:06 <AnMaster> Twist directions for yarns.?
12:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_ said that he was using ISO standard 4, which prompted me to look it up.
12:59:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and what is iso 4?
13:00:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a standardisation of the abbreviation of journal titles.
13:00:20 <alise_> ISO morphic
13:00:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and that is what alise_ used it for?
13:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No, he uses it as his character encoding.
13:00:47 <AnMaster> hah
13:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't ask.
13:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ISO 7: Something called pipe threads.
13:01:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, is that the official title of it?
13:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ISO 4?
13:01:29 <AnMaster> no, iso 7
13:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's a description of what it standardises.
13:01:51 <AnMaster> ah
13:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Pipe threads seem to be something to do with plumbing.
13:02:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how comes we never see that in Mario then? ;P
13:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Nintendo mustn't obey the standards.
13:03:22 <AnMaster> hah
13:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to stop looking at ISOs before I die of boredom.
13:04:35 <AnMaster> heh
13:04:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, where is that list?
13:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I just typed "ISO N" into WP.
13:05:14 <AnMaster> ah
13:08:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that there must be an ISO standard for the format of ISO standards.
13:08:46 <AnMaster> heh
13:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22personal+pin+number%22 This saddens me.
13:15:48 <alise_> 1234567890
13:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, "Personal" makes no sense in the context of PINs.
13:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> There are hundreds of thousands of people with each PIN, assuming an even distribution.
13:17:49 * Phantom_Hoover must revise
13:17:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
13:35:13 <alise_> An unpublished dockumente.
13:49:36 <alise_> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html goddamnit i want this font!
13:51:58 <hiato> The regular is absolutely free.
13:52:04 <hiato> quote un'quote
13:53:04 <alise_> the regular, yes, but i have this crazy tendency to use bold and italic in my text.
13:53:32 <hiato> alise_: In a font? Why should that matter?
13:53:48 <alise_> ?
13:53:48 <alise_> I am not sure you understand.
13:53:51 <hiato> It's not like arial becomes arial thick when you use bold
13:53:59 <alise_> What do you mean, why should that matter?
13:54:05 <hiato> It's all in one font
13:54:09 <alise_> Are you saying that the computer can automatically italicise and embolden text?
13:54:16 <alise_> And that it does this for existing fonts?
13:54:34 <alise_> hiato: The "regular being absolutely free" means a font with only non-bold, non-italic glyphs: i.e. regular glyphs.
13:54:36 <hiato> Yes, I am
13:54:49 <alise_> hiato: Then you are a fool who knows nothing of typography.
13:54:54 <alise_> Italic IS NOT the same thing as slanted.
13:54:59 <alise_> Computers can slant; the result is hideously inappropriate for italic text.
13:55:09 <alise_> Italics are almost always separate glyph-sets.
13:55:14 <alise_> The same goes for bold.
13:55:24 <hiato> I, for instance, know that my current font (terminus) only har once set of glyphs - regular. But, *this* is bold nonetheless
13:55:51 <alise_> Terminus, sure, a monospaced font.
13:55:54 <alise_> Do you really think that has any bearing on good typography?
13:56:09 <alise_> If I didn't care about the quality, readability and beauty of my text... I wouldn't care what typeface I was using.
13:56:24 <hiato> alise_: I dont follow
13:56:37 <alise_> Where, exactly, do you stop following?
13:56:46 <hiato> and no, I do not know "anything about typography"
13:56:54 <alise_> Where, exactly, do you stop following?
13:57:29 <hiato> Are you saying that computer glyph alteration is only avaliable for monospace fonls?
13:57:32 <hiato> *t
13:57:37 <alise_> hiato: OK; do you not understand the difference between italic type and slanted type?
13:57:43 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_type Look at the two examples here.
13:57:50 <alise_> "Italic" denotes something /very/ different from slanted type.
13:58:05 <alise_> With monospaced fonts, it doesn't really matter: they have basically no fidelity or typographical quality anyway, at least old-school ones.
13:58:20 <alise_> But if we're talking actual, readable, modern type: slanting is not /nearly/ the same thing as italics, and it is hideous.
13:58:45 <hiato> alise_: If you insnit. Dina, for instance, is yet another counter-example
13:59:10 <alise_> Are you perhaps confusing amateur monospaced fonts with actual proportional typefaces?
13:59:15 <alise_> You know, that have things like "kerning".
13:59:34 <hiato> I'm not sure. What is that?
14:00:17 <alise_> Well, here is the sign that discussing typography with you probably requires a whole background introduction first. :)
14:00:37 <alise_> Safe to say that all the serif fonts, and some of the sans-serif fonts, you use on your computer, definitely have italic versions.
14:00:40 <hiato> Yep, I imagine it does
14:00:44 <alise_> Because italic type doesn't even have to be particularly slanty.
14:00:54 <hiato> Ok
14:01:05 <alise_> Simply not the same thing: and was never believed to be so, before Windows and the like came along and fudged the fact that they didn't have proper italic glyphs in their word processor by automatically slanting.
14:02:05 <hiato> Ah, right
14:03:58 <alise_> Anyway I guess a lot of people read really ugly aliased Arial on their Windows XP machines with their displays set to the wrong resolution...
14:03:58 <alise_> So it's not really something "most people" would notice.
14:03:58 <alise_> But once you've noticed it once you never stop.
14:03:58 <alise_> Now how much does Calluna cost... :-)
14:04:20 <hiato> heh
14:06:17 <alise_> $119.
14:06:21 <alise_> Well, I shall start saving up.
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14:18:10 <alise_> Disregard that I
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14:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, does anyone here have much experience with graphicsy things?
14:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried #ubuntu but it was as helpful as a bag of ferrets.
14:38:53 <fizzie> That sounds very helpful.
14:39:00 <alise_> Hey, bags of ferrets are retarded in a cute sort of way.
14:39:04 <alise_> #ubuntu is just retarded.
14:39:15 <alise_> Also, ferrets occasionally acknowledge your existence
14:39:25 <fizzie> What *can't* you do with a bag of ferrets?
14:39:40 <alise_> ...hm.
14:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Fix your computer.
14:39:42 <alise_> ...
14:39:44 <alise_> Nothing, actually.
14:39:53 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: You could replace your computer with a bag of ferrets.
14:40:03 <alise_> Now I want a bag of ferrets.
14:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Bags of ferrets can't do interesting things like browse the internet.
14:40:19 <fizzie> I got kicked out of (IRCnet's) #linux.fi for associating with "the wrong sort of people".
14:40:39 <fizzie> But it is a channel like that.
14:40:50 <alise_> fizzie: What sort of people would that be?
14:41:06 <alise_> Also, EFnet/IRCnet + Finnish people; most hostile environment conceivable?
14:41:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The wrong one.
14:41:09 <fizzie> Some years earlier I had gotten kicked out of there for being too quiet.
14:41:13 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes they can.
14:41:19 <alise_> They can browse all the portions of the internet contained within a bag of ferrets.
14:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Is #esoteric in them?
14:41:41 <fizzie> The sort of people who don't like newcomers to their precious channel.
14:41:57 <alise_> I thought Finns disliked conversation.
14:42:02 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, they may know certain things about esoteric programming language.
14:42:14 <alise_> Mostly things that involve looking at you blankly.
14:42:26 <fizzie> Oh, you meant the wrong people. Those were people associatd with an organization of sorts.
14:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought they have a non-Indo-European language. The Finns. Not the ferrets.
14:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Though ferrets don't have an Indo-European language either.
14:42:55 <alise_> Well, I can't vouch for the Finns, but the ferrets certainly do.
14:43:18 <alise_> fizzie: You can say cult, we won't judge. :P
14:43:24 <alise_> (Or ULTIMAT WAREZ SKENE GRUUP.)
14:43:57 <fizzie> More culty than warezy, but perhaps a bit quirky.
14:44:45 <alise_> I REQUIRE ELABORATION
14:44:45 <alise_> Was it Kibology
14:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Or Last Thursdayism?
14:45:06 <fizzie> It was a Finnish thing, not so explicable or known.
14:45:27 <fizzie> I don't suppose Deewiant has been in any way involved with the "irtie" folks? (It's a small country, but maybe not quite *that* small.)
14:46:22 <alise_> Finland is weird.
14:46:43 <Deewiant> Never heard of "irtie"
14:47:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Imam Irtie?
14:49:14 <alise_> http://i.imgur.com/qlrHy.jpg
14:49:29 <fizzie> alise_: Courtesy of Google Translate: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irti_El%25C3%25A4m%25C3%25A4st%25C3%25A4&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjvvQORGLzfbaRDVUUWmIh_WJZcOQ
14:49:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: Irti elämästä, I mean.
14:49:45 <alise_> Translating Finnish; this sounds fun.
14:49:49 <alise_> As in hellish.
14:49:56 <fizzie> It looked pretty hilarious.
14:50:13 <Deewiant> Don't know of that either, I don't think.
14:50:22 <fizzie> I wasn't a member or anything, I just knew too many people involved.
14:50:23 <alise_> I want to write a really simple raycasterish thing.
14:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/images/e/e8/WatermelonCat.jpg
14:50:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay; it was a long shot, anyway.
14:51:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie: So what *is* it?
14:51:40 * alise_ tries to load the translated page
14:52:27 <alise_> http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Ferret-Sleeping-Bag
14:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wrong way round.
14:53:44 <fizzie> Can't find anything official in English. Just a vaguely computer/nerdery-related association.
14:54:28 * Phantom_Hoover needs to go now, so shall crash his GPU again for data-acquisitory purposes.
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14:58:37 <alise_> fearless.
15:00:05 <alise_> I never knew OpenOffice could edit equations.
15:01:20 <fizzie> Isn't there an equation editor in MS Office too?
15:02:40 <fizzie> I seem to recall one from years past; and they have to try to include all Office features, after all.
15:05:12 <alise_> Yes; it's better than OpenOffice's too :P
15:13:07 <alise_> Also, is it just me or is the Pentium III way better than the P4 in every way?
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15:18:33 <fizzie> It must be just you; 3 < 4.
15:18:56 <alise_> lulz
15:27:02 <alise_> It would be nice to have some sort of symbolic-numeric library for C, like so: http://pastie.org/942428.txt?key=jkk2tre903q6vbcuclnjw
15:27:09 <alise_> I think Ginac is basically that for C++, but still.
15:27:15 <alise_> Of course ginac benefits from operator overloading.
15:34:28 <alise_> Still, it would be Handy with a capital Y.
15:35:25 <alise_> I wonder if there's some Utterly Horrible Trick you could use to make x+y work.
15:35:37 <alise_> Perhaps define X and Y, as the existing variables, as something ending in a quote mark, so it ends up looking like
15:35:44 <alise_> build(X, " + ", Y
15:35:46 <alise_> or something
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15:58:41 <pikhq> Still up?
15:59:27 <pikhq> alise_: ^
16:00:18 <alise_> yes
16:00:19 <alise_> hi!
16:01:30 <pikhq> Whooo.
16:01:43 * pikhq is up earlier than would be liked
16:07:02 <pikhq> alise_: Dear God I gave you a stupid answer last night regarding "time".
16:07:12 <alise_> Yes :|
16:07:19 <pikhq> Some of those times were 24 hour, some were 12 hour.
16:07:34 <alise_> Well /that/ explain the huge disrepancy that I POINTED OUT...
16:07:41 <alise_> >_<
16:08:40 <pikhq> 17:08 UTC+12, 15:08 Chamorro, 02:08 Atlantic, 01:08 Eastern, 00:08 Central, 23:08 Mountain, 22:08 Pacific, 21:08 Alaska, 20:08 Hawaii-Aleutian, 19:08 Samon, 17:08 UTC-12.
16:08:46 <pikhq> It was late.
16:09:17 <pikhq> And those first two times are wrong. GAH.
16:09:36 <pikhq> Not to mention several hours ago.
16:09:48 <pikhq> I... Should get some coffee.
16:09:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, shouldn't UTC+12 == UTC-12 always be the case when you don't include the date?
16:10:00 <AnMaster> hm
16:10:12 <pikhq> Oh. Yeah.
16:10:17 <pikhq> I should get some coffee.
16:10:32 -!- hiato has joined.
16:10:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if the first two are wrong then the last one must be wrong too
16:10:49 <alise_> First coffee, now tea
16:10:53 <alise_> you fucking bastard!
16:11:05 <alise_> right that is /it/
16:11:09 <alise_> do you know what i am going to do
16:11:59 <alise_> EH EH
16:12:01 <alise_> EH PIKHQ
16:12:23 <pikhq> ... Go downstairs?
16:13:32 <alise_> ... shut up
16:15:01 <alise_> anyway
16:15:04 <alise_> i have an urge to either
16:15:13 <alise_> (a) write up yet another basic architecture for a non-sucky os, or
16:15:19 <alise_> (b) spec a totally solid state machine
16:15:27 <alise_> the former is better, the latter is easier and short term funner
16:15:32 <alise_> guess which i'll end up doing, probably.
16:18:32 <alise_> spqrtuv
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16:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Does this channel actually have any ops?
16:57:18 <oerjan> sure
16:57:26 <oerjan> me, fizzie and lament
16:57:41 <oerjan> although i'm pretty new and incompetent at it
16:58:24 <oerjan> fizzie is the uberop
16:58:59 <oerjan> but not the channel founder, that is andreou who no one has seen for years
16:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Founders are indeed mystical creatures.
16:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> How can one found a channel in the first place, other than by being the first to join it?
16:59:45 * oerjan ponders if there's a reference there he doesn't get
17:00:00 * Phantom_Hoover wishes he was that subtle
17:00:02 <oerjan> freenode has a channel registration system
17:00:22 <oerjan> so andreou was presumably the one to register it
17:00:38 <pikhq> Chanserv.
17:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
17:00:49 <oerjan> ChanServ handles channels, like NickServ handles nicks
17:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose that someone must have made a language that uses chess notation.
17:02:13 * oerjan notes that Phantom_Hoover hasn't registered his nick
17:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I just haven't bothered to identify. Hold on...
17:02:47 <oerjan> or well you did but you aren't logged in
17:03:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:03:44 * oerjan isn't so good with those bots - it's like they duplicate functionality that _should_ have been in the server itself if things were logical
17:03:59 <oerjan> so i used /whois to check your nick first, since that's the server command
17:05:31 <oerjan> and i have this vague idea that bans should probably go through chanserv, rather than using my clients /kickban command which is easier
17:06:05 <oerjan> which may be the main thing i need to learn to be an efficient op
17:06:32 <oerjan> otoh i haven't yet had a serious _use_ for my op powers :D
17:06:49 <oerjan> *client's
17:07:02 <alise_> opping #esoteric is a dull job.
17:07:07 <alise_> Nothing needs to be done most days.
17:07:54 <oerjan> of course /kickban is probably sufficient for less persistent spammers
17:08:05 <oerjan> and trolls
17:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> This channel has trolls?
17:09:19 <oerjan> it has happened
17:09:25 <oerjan> they're not very persistent
17:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> What did they troll over?
17:09:38 <alise_> nothing, mostly
17:09:45 <alise_> most even /admit/ to trolling
17:09:47 <oerjan> ok there was one banned the other month
17:09:51 <alise_> oerjan: two
17:09:54 <augur> god
17:09:55 <alise_> one got unbanned (unfortunately)
17:10:00 <oerjan> yes but one was unbanne... right
17:10:03 <alise_> but he's been silent since so... sssh
17:10:06 <augur> im reading the jargon file's section on hacker writing style
17:10:11 <augur> its nothing but me in there D:
17:10:23 <oerjan> alise_: our channel is simply too boring to troll :D
17:10:23 <augur> actually more :D than anything
17:10:37 <alise_> augur: ignore the jargon file
17:10:40 <oerjan> we're too reasonable or something
17:10:47 <augur> hush your face alise_ >|
17:10:55 <alise_> esr is just a masturbatory, egotistical blowhard who likes putting his own coinages in there and making ludicrous assertions like most hackers are conservatives.
17:11:11 <alise_> seriously. if there is one thing every sane or insane person must do, it is to IGNORE ESR.
17:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, ESR. Nothing like a nice dose of crazy.
17:11:39 <oerjan> well, he _did_ maintain c-intercal for a while
17:11:45 <alise_> he /wrote/ c-intercal
17:11:46 <alise_> case in point
17:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Though he ceased to be amusing when he blamed Turing for what happened to him.
17:11:53 <alise_> I bet augur would like his article about literally channeling a sex goddess when he was a teenager (IIRC)
17:11:57 <alise_> (it was quite serious)
17:12:02 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, what?
17:12:11 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Wow.
17:12:15 <augur> alise_: where's it say anything about conservativism
17:12:18 <alise_> Blaming... Turing... for being gay...
17:12:32 <alise_> augur: lemme find it for you
17:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1046#comment-236592
17:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently everyone is more pathetic than him.
17:12:54 <augur> oh see, im reading the old version then, i guess
17:13:02 * alise_ tries to find it
17:13:06 <augur> http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_59.html#SEC66
17:13:13 <alise_> augur: basically it states that blah blah before 9/11 or something
17:13:15 <alise_> and then yo conservatives man
17:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Libertarians, I thought.
17:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> He's a gun nut, too.
17:14:51 <augur> so who's ESR now?
17:15:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Eric S Ramond.
17:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> s/Ramond/Raymond..
17:15:15 <augur> dont know him
17:15:19 <augur> dont know if i care
17:15:33 -!- alise__ has joined.
17:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, he's the right-wing version of Stallman. In very loose terms.
17:15:41 <alise__> <alise_> also he put "gandhicon" in there after he was the only person to say it, ever.
17:15:44 <alise__> <alise_> plus, he's:
17:15:46 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-Iraq war
17:15:46 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-Israel's actions
17:15:48 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-guns guns & MOAR GUNZ
17:15:50 <alise__> <alise_> - I could go on...
17:15:52 <alise__> <alise_> basically take anything he says with a grain of shit. he sucks at technology too.
17:15:55 <alise__> <alise_> hey, he wrote fetchmail though!
17:15:58 <alise__> <alise_> even more annoying is that the original jargon file was /wonderful/
17:16:00 <alise__> <alise_> and esr came along and shat on it
17:16:01 <augur> alise__: whats a guns gun
17:16:02 <alise__> augur: Um, ESR is who maintains the Jargon File now.
17:16:04 <alise__> Although I hesitate to call it that as IMO he had no right whatsoever to mangle the original.
17:16:12 <alise__> pro-{guns guns & MOAR GUNZ}
17:16:19 <pikhq> He's notable for maintaining the Jargon file poorly, being right wing, and working on not a hell of a lot of software.
17:16:21 <augur> whats a guns gun
17:16:30 <alise__> nothing
17:16:34 <augur> also, i dont care about the current jargon file. i was reading the original. :P
17:16:34 <pikhq> Some Emacs, C-Intercal, and fetchmail.
17:16:40 <augur> or some older version of it
17:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> augur: FREEDOM IN METAL FORM.
17:16:45 <alise__> augur: o rly.
17:16:47 <alise__> link
17:16:54 <pikhq> augur: Well, he has a few things in the original.
17:16:55 <augur> http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_toc.html
17:16:55 <pikhq> :)
17:17:14 <alise__> outpost9; that domain reminds me of something...
17:17:18 <alise__> -- basically everything nice in the jargon file is in the old versions,
17:17:21 <alise__> and everything esr added is shit
17:17:23 <alise__> so there's no reason to use his at all
17:17:29 <pikhq> Though, so did pretty much everyone who was around the old jargon file.
17:17:39 <alise__> also, that outpost9 is not loading for me now
17:17:44 <alise__> also, esr even removed terms!
17:17:47 <alise__> just because they were not from HIS sector of the culture, UNIX
17:17:55 <alise__> to "reflect the modern world" yeah right
17:17:56 -!- alise_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So are there still large non-UNIX cultures?
17:18:29 <alise__> augur: you fail
17:18:33 <alise__> new hacker's dictionary is esr publication
17:18:39 <augur> really
17:18:44 <pikhq> Yes.
17:18:52 <alise__> apparently that's pre- the amendment to that article, though
17:18:56 <alise__> or maybe it was another one, can't remember.
17:19:01 <augur> well then
17:19:03 <alise__> augur: The Hacker's Dictionary is the non-esr version
17:19:54 <alise__> augur: http://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html here's the original, sloppily HTML-formatted
17:20:05 <augur> yay
17:20:57 <alise__> hey wait i just realised i have monday off!!!
17:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> From what?
17:21:12 <augur> the crazy house.
17:21:19 <oerjan> the loony bin!
17:21:33 <alise__> what they said.
17:21:48 <augur> wait wait wait
17:21:51 <augur> is a house or a bin
17:21:53 <augur> this is important
17:21:54 <pikhq> You can sleep!
17:22:00 <augur> lets not be wishy washy with our words here
17:22:00 <alise__> It's a bin... formed into a house!
17:22:00 <pikhq> augur: It's a binhouse.
17:22:01 <oerjan> is 3rd of may a british holiday?
17:22:04 <augur> AHA
17:22:04 <alise__> pikhq: Noooo I don't want to
17:22:07 <alise__> oerjan: bank holiday monday
17:22:07 <augur> a binhouse
17:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sleep is for the weak!
17:22:17 <alise__> pikhq: I will sleep early tonight, you see
17:22:24 <augur> alise__: remind me, do you like Doctor Who or not?
17:22:31 <pikhq> augur: He's British.
17:22:33 <alise__> and thus, accounting for ultra-tiredness but still getting to bed early, will wake up at an OK time tomorrow
17:22:33 <alise__> augur: yes
17:22:37 <oerjan> britain, where the banks get their own holidays
17:22:39 <alise__> but i haven't seen the latest ones of the new seriezzz
17:22:41 <alise__> oerjan: quite
17:22:44 <pikhq> oerjan: And the US.
17:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, I can spoil it.
17:22:51 <augur> alise__: thinkgeek sells 10th and 11th doctor sonic screwdrivers.
17:23:03 <alise__> I want laser.
17:23:06 <alise__> Who the heck would get sonic?
17:23:10 <augur> :|
17:23:29 <alise__> ...also, thanks but no thanks. Unless it actually features the supernatural powers of the original.
17:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> What about 9th?
17:23:39 <alise__> If I bought everything cool from ThinkGeek, I'd have less than no money.
17:23:41 <Phantom_Hoover> They're different!
17:23:47 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: WAY TOO CAMP FOR HIS OWN GOOD.
17:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Ecclestone?
17:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> He was all right.
17:24:19 <alise__> Ehhhhhh I liked him at the time but Tennant was just so much better
17:24:20 <augur> dunno if 9th doctor had a different screwdriver than 10
17:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> He did, I think.
17:25:07 <alise__> I don't notice them changing.
17:25:10 <oerjan> they're all a bit screwy *runs away*
17:25:16 <alise__> I didn't even know they changed, until now.
17:25:18 <augur> alise__: 11's is very different
17:25:26 <alise__> Yeah I've only seen two eps of 11
17:25:36 <Phantom_Hoover> There are only 4 so far.
17:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> iPlayer!
17:25:56 <augur> http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/cubegoodies/8cff/
17:25:58 <augur> thats 10's
17:26:04 <augur> http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/collectibles/d7d8/
17:26:05 <augur> that's 11'
17:26:06 <augur> s
17:26:17 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I'd not iPlayer when I could get them in HD for free.
17:26:27 <alise__> Two, I sort of have other priorities; though I see you don't know of them.
17:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, they rebuilt 10's after they noticed that the merchandise was better than the prop.
17:27:24 <alise__> Not sure I like 11's.
17:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It's got springy vanes!
17:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Springy vanes make everything better!
17:30:22 <oerjan> `define vane
17:30:31 <augur> i need to find a place to get nitrous
17:30:40 <alise__> Amusingly, RECURSION is the tail recursion here.
17:30:49 <HackEgo> * weathervane: mechanical device attached to an elevated structure; rotates freely to show the direction of the wind \ * a fin attached to the tail of an arrow, bomb or missile in order to stabilize or guide it \ * blade: flat surface that rotates and pushes against air or water
17:30:51 <alise__> as TAIL RECURSION is trivially dead code, it can be eliminated
17:31:12 <alise__> augur: You should ask #esoteric!
17:31:19 <Deewiant> Actually "," is in the tail position
17:31:20 <augur> esoteric, here can i find nitrous!
17:31:28 <alise__> No, not here.
17:31:45 <alise__> augur: also, just go to the dentist a lot
17:31:59 <augur> dentists dont use nitrous here, afaik
17:32:03 <alise__> Move!
17:32:06 <oerjan> alise__: not necessarily true in the State monad
17:32:10 <alise__> Or, you know, stop being a wimp and get some HEROIN FUCK YEAH
17:32:25 <alise__> oerjan: you're not necessarily true in the state monad nyah
17:32:31 <oerjan> or other monads where the last command might actually be accessed first
17:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you could get nitrous in whipped cream squirty things.
17:33:39 <alise__> Bitrot: a language where every instruction (also data; same thing) has an associated real F (freshness) that approaches 0 as time goes on
17:33:43 <alise__> this makes the instruction "less effective"
17:33:52 <alise__> you have to refresh instructions&data by several means.
17:34:06 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; main = print $ execState loop undefined where loop = loop >> put 5
17:34:17 <EgoBot> 5
17:34:30 <alise__> Is just like magic.
17:35:08 <alise__> WATERBOTTLE SOCCER n. A deadly sport practiced mainly by Sussman's graduate students. It, along with chair bowling, is the most evident manifestation of the "locker room atmosphere" said to reign in that sphere. (Sussman doesn't approve.) [As of 11/82, it's reported that the sport has given way to a new game called "disc-boot", and Sussman even participates occasionally.]
17:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> How did we get onto Haskell?
17:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't remember that.
17:35:19 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: That's the question underlying everything, really.
17:35:38 <alise__> WIN [from MIT jargon] 1. v. To succeed. A program wins if no unexpected conditions arise. 2. BIG WIN: n. Serendipity. Emphatic forms: MOBY WIN, SUPER WIN, HYPER-WIN (often used interjectively as a reply). For some reason SUITABLE WIN is also common at MIT, usually in reference to a satisfactory solution to a problem. See LOSE.
17:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so *that's* what the universe is written in.
17:35:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i wanted to demonstrate that in haskell, loop = do loop; whatever does _not_ always mean whatever is dead code
17:35:46 <alise__> Them MITers were at it much before you interwebfangled guys.
17:37:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, the State monad.
17:38:15 <pikhq> How very lazy it is.
17:38:17 <pikhq> :)
17:38:32 <augur> pikhq: as an anarchist, I strongly oppose the use of the State monad.
17:38:47 <pikhq> augur: Hah.
17:38:57 <pikhq> What about the Unstate monad?
17:39:08 <augur> well thats ok
17:39:13 <oerjan> augur: do anarchists support Readers?
17:39:21 <augur> whats a reader? D:
17:39:26 <alise__> Reader's Digest
17:39:31 <alise__> we clearly need a digest function on Readers
17:39:37 <alise__> that, say, takes a bunch of reads and condenses them.
17:39:47 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; main = print $ runReader loop where loop = loop >> return 5
17:39:53 <alise__> augur: here, record of esr's fucking up the jargon file -- including the pertinent political change -- http://pastie.org/942533.txt?key=s0zg82w7irl4owgr068aq
17:39:54 <oerjan> dammit
17:39:58 <alise__> from http://www.ntk.net/2003/06/06/
17:40:01 <oerjan> oh right
17:40:08 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; main = print $ runReader loop undefined where loop = loop >> return 5
17:40:11 <EgoBot> 5
17:40:13 * Sgeo wonders when alise__ will start hallucinating
17:40:25 <alise__> Sgeo, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.
17:40:52 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Ford.
17:41:00 <Ford> Bah, this nick is registered
17:41:03 -!- Ford has changed nick to Sgeo.
17:41:27 <pikhq> Ah, the claim that hackers range from "moderate to neoconservative"...
17:41:27 * augur wonders when he will start hallucinating
17:41:42 <pikhq> I think ESR is the *only* neoconservative hacker.
17:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought he was a libertarian.
17:42:21 <augur> whats this mention of kuro5hin
17:42:29 <pikhq> And hacker politics are anything but moderate.
17:42:32 <alise__> neoconservatism - liberalism - anarchism - he thinks they are all the same
17:42:40 <alise__> errr
17:42:41 <pikhq> alise__: WHAT
17:42:44 <pikhq> So much fail.
17:42:44 <alise__> neoconservatism - libertarianism - anarchism - he thinks they are all the same
17:42:48 <pikhq> So. Much. Fail.
17:42:49 <alise__> /slight/ gaffe there
17:42:54 <alise__> (he claims to simultaneouslybe a lib & an anarchist)
17:42:57 <pikhq> Still much fail.
17:42:59 <alise__> *simultaneously be
17:43:05 <alise__> well i dunno about neo- conservatism
17:43:08 <augur> anyone?
17:43:13 <alise__> but i'm sure there is some X for X-conservatism for which that holds
17:43:18 <alise__> augur: what do you mean this mention of kuro5hin
17:43:26 <augur> the link mentions kuro5hin
17:43:27 <augur> why
17:43:29 <alise__> kuro5hin guys tend to lean left, you might say ...
17:43:31 <pikhq> alise__: Y'know the modern Republican party?
17:43:33 <alise__> and also be batshit insane on average
17:43:34 <oerjan> i could also do it with a Writer monad, but then i'd need a better Monoid than lists
17:43:38 <Sgeo> alise__, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, time?
17:43:39 <alise__> pikhq: why no i don't what is this thing
17:43:39 <augur> ok.
17:43:42 <pikhq> That is the face of neoconservativism.
17:43:49 <alise__> Sgeo: It is on kuro5hin; what of it?
17:43:51 <alise__> pikhq: I know.
17:43:52 <pikhq> alise__: They are fucking crazy.
17:44:01 <alise__> You do not say.
17:44:13 <Sgeo> alise__, the mention of kuro5hin reminded me of it, and that you wanted to read it at some point
17:44:21 <alise__> Not when I'm sleep-deprived.
17:44:49 * alise__ wonders which computer to unpack, and whether to run Ubuntu 10.04, some form of BSD, OS X, or other on it
17:45:31 <Phantom_Hoover> If I can ever get that E-SNUSP interpreter finished, there might actually be an esoteric one.
17:46:34 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; import Data.Monoid; main = print . head . getDual $ execWriter loop where loop = loop >> tell (Dual "hi")
17:46:37 <EgoBot> 'h'
17:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> !help
17:46:54 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:47:14 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; import Data.Monoid; main = print . head . getDual $ execWriter loop where loop = loop >> tell (Dual ["hi"])
17:47:17 <EgoBot> "hi"
17:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> !help languages
17:47:22 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> !unlambda i
17:47:48 <oerjan> that's pretty much a nop
17:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> !lazyk i
17:47:53 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
17:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
17:48:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Talking to a bot...
17:48:08 <oerjan> alas, not all the old interpreters are properly installed
17:48:23 <oerjan> (i think)
17:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> !lazyk
17:48:27 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
17:48:51 <oerjan> that's the error message it gives for that, i think
17:49:07 <oerjan> !unlamba ``.h.ii
17:49:13 <oerjan> !unlambda ``.h.ii
17:49:13 <EgoBot> hi
17:49:50 <fizzie> Talking to a bot is the sign of a well-adjusted mind.
17:49:54 <fizzie> Wouldn't you agree, fungot?
17:49:54 <fungot> fizzie: even if it were
17:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It fungot a bot?
17:50:11 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: since the pre-scheme value's type is inferred from that.
17:50:19 <fizzie> Yes, it a bot.
17:50:20 <oerjan> ^source
17:50:20 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:50:20 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot: I agree.
17:50:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: oh, no, i use the proposals interface). it's also the biggest and best game i had...
17:51:02 <oerjan> ^ul (Hello there!)S
17:51:02 <fungot> Hello there!
17:51:16 <alise__> fungot is the best befunge-98 bot ever; also the only
17:51:17 <fungot> alise__: i guess it's a bit... terse?
17:51:57 <alise__> ,,, :D
17:51:59 <alise__> *...
17:53:33 <alise__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Calculon this language is not mathematical at all
17:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It's almost as good as that proposal for Brainfuck II.
17:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I liked that.
17:54:29 <oerjan> alise__: sheesh don't you know numbers == math
17:54:49 <alise__> IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
17:54:54 <alise__> especially a mutable stack of numbers
17:55:32 <alise__> fizzie: oh my god do you still have the q[uick]basic stuff
17:56:07 <fizzie> Possibly somewhere.
17:56:12 -!- coppro has joined.
17:56:19 <fizzie> Which of the stuff?
17:56:29 <alise__> fizzie: Well, the ultra-illegal QuickBasic ware-ess.
17:56:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:56:46 <alise__> Oops, coppro won't be happy with me infringing copyright! :P
17:56:49 <zzo38> Should they add a code like this in anarchy golf service? http://pastebin.com/pVFjhRBq
17:57:25 <coppro> alise__: die, heathen!
17:57:41 <zzo38> Is it even correct? I don't know much about Ruby programming
17:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a party for that sort of thing.
17:58:00 <alise__> zzo38: what's it meant to do?
17:58:49 <coppro> doesn't Ruby use sigils?
17:58:55 <zzo38> You have to add "inputfix" field in the submit form, and then you can fix the input sent to the program, in case the input is broken
18:00:02 <zzo38> coppro: I don't know.
18:00:19 <coppro> IIRC it does, and I don't see a single sigil in that paste
18:01:07 <Deewiant> It uses some sigils but that paste doesn't need any
18:01:10 <zzo38> But this program doesn't have a lot of sigils either: http://github.com/shinh/ags/blob/master/fe/fcgi/submit.rb
18:13:40 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: Supper and cricket).
18:15:51 <alise__> The DOS cursor blinks Too Fast Aiee.
18:16:06 <alise__> coppro: ruby uses sigils for some things
18:16:11 <alise__> @foo is instance var, @@foo is class var
18:16:13 <alise__> $foo is global
18:16:13 <alise__> that's it
18:16:15 <coppro> ah
18:16:25 <alise__> also @foo is mostly only used for assignment of private vars
18:16:31 <alise__> since you usually define accessors so "foo" and "self.foo =" work
18:16:48 <coppro> in other news, fuck MPEG-LA
18:19:11 <zzo38> alise__: If the DOS cursor blinks too fast I think it is the video card (or BIOS) which blinks it, not DOS itself? (I wonder if it is possible to slow down the video card (and still have it work correctly)) (Also, I think it blinks OK speed, it is not too fast)
18:19:29 <coppro> things should be "amusing" come 2015
18:19:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:19:41 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro: Why?
18:19:52 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: That's when the free license expires
18:20:02 <coppro> (for H.264)
18:20:14 <zzo38> (And then there is MegaZeux, which just emulates the cursor (and in PZX versions, blinking text as well))
18:20:14 <coppro> Unless MPEG-LA extends it again, then everyone using H.264 on the Internet for any purpose will be liable to them
18:21:03 <alise__> zzo38: I think cursors shouldn't blink at all.
18:21:06 <alise__> Pointless distraction.
18:21:08 <alise__> hi ais523
18:21:17 <coppro> yeah, nethack looks bad with blinking cursors
18:21:17 <alise__> Anyway, it's DOSBox, so...
18:21:20 <alise__> No idea howto stop it blinking.
18:21:20 <ais523> hi alise__
18:21:32 <alise__> Blink blink blink blink look at me I am where you are typing; you are too dumb-fuck retarded to find me otherwise.
18:21:32 <ais523> coppro: I don't mind NetHack with blinking cursors
18:21:34 <pikhq> The MPEG-LA can go to hell, as can everyone backing them.
18:21:40 <coppro> yep
18:21:42 <alise__> I hope you don't have epilepblink blink blink blink
18:21:56 <ais523> also, the H.64 licence isn't free for all purposes
18:22:00 <pikhq> Also: Google, could you, like, *release* VP-8?
18:22:05 <zzo38> coppro: Then use Theora for videos if you can't use H.264. Also, wouldn't the patent expire one day
18:22:07 * alise__ reenters the blissful harmony that is BASIC.
18:22:09 <pikhq> ais523: Only free for streaming.
18:22:12 <ais523> yep
18:22:16 <pikhq> Not *encoding* or *decoding*.
18:22:17 <alise__> theora, alas, has piss-poor quality compared to H.264.
18:22:23 <ais523> pikhq: oh, encoding needs a licence too?
18:22:27 <pikhq> Yes.
18:22:27 <alise__> thankfully, most of the time you'd be illegally obtaining your H.264s too
18:22:30 <alise__> so it hardly matters :)))
18:22:35 <ais523> alise__: you mean, less quality per byte
18:22:37 <zzo38> alise__: Which version of BASIC? There is a lot
18:22:38 <pikhq> x264 is very illegal.
18:22:40 <coppro> ais523: Yeah. I didn't say it was. I merely said that in 2015, all uses become un-free
18:22:45 <ais523> theora can be just as high quality, it just takes around twice the space
18:22:48 <alise__> ais523: well, no
18:22:57 <alise__> maybe if you shot up the quality lots and lots
18:23:00 <ais523> (aren't they both lossless in the limit?)
18:23:01 <fizzie> The dosbox blinker is a bit overkill, though; I don't recall my real DOS-running computers blinking quite so hard.
18:23:01 <pikhq> I only use it because, well: I'm already encoding deCSS'd DVDs. It's not like I can break the law *more*.
18:23:04 <pikhq> :)
18:23:14 <alise__> but theora loses to h.264 pretty much no matter what
18:23:14 <alise__> x264 is amazing
18:23:17 <coppro> in any case, legality does depend on jurisdiction
18:23:26 <zzo38> And, for sure Theora can be improved in the future, if someone can improve it more
18:23:33 <pikhq> x264 is the best h.264 encoder, IIRC.
18:23:34 <coppro> if you're outside the US, you're about 10000000x safer than inside
18:23:36 <alise__> Dark Shikari is da man
18:23:39 <alise__> pikhq: yes
18:23:42 <alise__> zzo38: It isn't improved now though
18:23:45 <alise__> and some of us want high-quality video :)
18:23:47 <pikhq> zzo38: It will probably just be superceded by VP-8.
18:24:07 <ais523> H.264 is perfectly fine in the UK, though, isn't it?
18:24:13 <pikhq> Which Google *should* be releasing for free usage in $soon.
18:24:13 <alise__> probably
18:24:14 <zzo38> alise__: Yes. It isn't improved now. However in my opinion it is sufficient for most purposes
18:24:14 <ais523> because the only way to enforce the licences is software patents?
18:24:24 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, it's a patent license.
18:24:25 <alise__> zzo38: Some of us have good eyesight :-)
18:24:32 <ais523> the H.264 algorithm is opened source in the Microsoft sense, after all
18:24:37 <pikhq> Meaning x264 is just fine in the UK.
18:24:41 <alise__> DEFtype If BASICA encounters a variable without an explicit type (indicated by !, #, &, $, or %), it uses the default type set by the most recent DEFtype statement. For example, the type of the variable IFLAG changes from integer to single precision in the following BASICA code fragment:
18:24:41 <alise__> 10 DEFINT I 20 PRINT IFLAG 30 DEFSNG I 40 GOTO 20
18:24:43 <alise__> what a horrible feature
18:24:54 <alise__> oh, it isn't in qbasico
18:24:55 <alise__> *qbasic
18:24:56 <alise__> phew :P
18:24:57 <ais523> alise__: qbasic does that too
18:25:01 <coppro> Absolutely; if there are no software patents then there is no incentive to accept the license terms
18:25:01 <alise__> nope
18:25:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
18:25:06 <alise__> you can't change a var's type after it's defined
18:25:06 <ais523> DEFINT i and all variables starting with i become integers
18:25:08 <alise__> straight from http://zem.fi/~fis/qbu.html
18:25:15 <alise__> (which is the most beautifully-typeset QBasic manual, ever)
18:25:15 <ais523> oh, yep, you have to do it before the first use of the variable
18:25:20 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I prefer getting very good quality and low space on my already-illegal DVD rips. :)
18:25:22 <coppro> existing licenses would possibly still be enforceable
18:25:23 <alise__> fizzie: do you have one for QuickBasic, I wonder?
18:25:28 <ais523> I missed that BASICA could cast variables on the fly
18:25:33 <fizzie> They stole that feature from FORTRAN, I think.
18:25:36 <zzo38> In QBASIC it does that when the program is parsed at first instead, but other than that is the same. And I do use DEFINT in QBASIC sometimes
18:25:40 <ais523> (by the way, does it cast it as reinterpret_cast, or as static_cast?)
18:25:43 <zzo38> But usually DEFINT A-Z
18:25:59 <ais523> zzo38: why don't you use trailing sigils instead?
18:26:03 <ais523> as in, a%
18:26:07 <fizzie> IMPLICIT CHARACTER(C) -- and then everything that starts with C is a character.
18:26:18 <alise__> pikhq: wait, you own DVDs?
18:26:18 <alise__> Why?
18:26:25 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't FORTRAN have some implicits set up by default?
18:26:27 <pikhq> alise__: I'm given them.
18:26:35 <alise__> │ \\ Integer division symbol │ │ (reserved for │ │ (backslash) │ │ compatibility with other │
18:26:39 <alise__> Double escape error, fizzie?
18:26:39 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, in fact I only use DEFtype when it is A-Z otherwise I do use trailing sigils
18:26:42 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, I think I, J for integers might have been defaults.
18:26:51 <zzo38> Or using AS (depending on the circumstance)
18:26:52 <pikhq> I *also* will check out DVDs from the dorm's front desk and rip them, and borrow DVDs from people for the sole purpose of renting them.
18:27:00 <pikhq> Erm.
18:27:01 <pikhq> Ripping.
18:27:12 <alise__> Fun fact, http://zem.fi/~fis/qbu.html is better documentation than the entirety of Ruby's :P
18:27:23 <alise__> Everything you need to know, right there, 100% honest
18:27:47 <fizzie> alise__: No, I don't have the QuickBasic manuals; the scripts I were using for generating those HTML versions need the original .hlp file sources, and the Microsoft tool I found for converting from binary to the source format barfed on the actual full quickbasic manual. It's in multiple files and all; might've been too much for it.
18:27:47 <pikhq> It would seem I can *encode* 480p h.264 at 140fps on my current CPU.
18:27:48 <zzo38> If you want good quality video, perhaps you can make a video cartridge that can store uncompressed video, and can be seeked and recorded like a VCR
18:27:51 <pikhq> Which is pretty nice.
18:28:08 <alise__> fizzie: I'll just use the QBasic manual + Google for QuickBasic, then.
18:28:12 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, interesting idea
18:28:15 <alise__> The main advantage is programs running faster, anyway.
18:28:24 <alise__> pikhq: what about 1080p?
18:28:25 <pikhq> zzo38: The only reason we don't deal in losslessly compressed video is that it uses a *lot* of space.
18:28:42 <ais523> probably in the future, storage will be voluminous and fast enough that people won't bother compressing at all
18:28:46 <ais523> but it might take another 10 to 20 years
18:28:48 <alise__> I like how anime encoders take it even further than, you know, just insanely high-quality x264; they literally play with quality settings for months.
18:28:53 <pikhq> I had 20G for a lossless 1080p copy of Elephant's Dream.
18:28:53 <alise__> Because it really matters, man!
18:29:02 <alise__> ais523: i don't know, 1080p raw HD is /very/ big
18:29:17 <pikhq> alise__: Which is kinda silly. After all, x264 is really, really good for anime.
18:29:32 <alise__> Yes; it's their main comparison material :-P
18:29:35 <pikhq> Also. 1080p raw HD is pretty big. Lossless compression of that is somewhat less so.
18:29:42 <alise__> Tbqh 90% of anime is... really easy to encode.
18:29:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know that. I'm actually talking completely uncompressed video (not just compressed losslessly), so that it can be seeked and recorded over at exact points. And I know you don't need to deal with it. I mean if someone made a large enough video cartridge with these features, like a external hard drive but optimized for video
18:29:46 <alise__> Being mostly blocks of colour.
18:29:57 <alise__> lossless decompression is slow though
18:30:10 <ais523> alise__: I wonder if anime encodes better as H.264 or as an animated GIF?
18:30:14 <coppro> Hmm
18:30:17 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that you'd expect the second would be good for
18:30:18 <pikhq> HuffYUV is "extremely fast".
18:30:25 <pikhq> ais523: h.264.
18:30:27 <pikhq> GIF *sucks ass*.
18:30:34 <fizzie> 20G sounds really pretty small. Even the digital movies they distribute to real theaters aren't lossless; according to one article, they encode each frame as a separate JPEG2000 file, and distribute by sending a few-hundred-gigabyte HD around.
18:30:37 <ais523> pikhq: yes, I can believe that GIF is really that bad
18:30:41 <coppro> GIF is horrible
18:30:44 <ais523> (MNG, if you want something more modern)
18:30:47 <pikhq> fizzie: Elephant's Dream is 10 minutes long.
18:30:54 <zzo38> Perhaps you can make "Anime Codec"?
18:30:59 <fizzie> pikhq: Oh, okay, then.
18:31:09 <alise__> Anime codec? Pointless.
18:31:16 <alise__> Detailed images, and simple images. Handle them both,
18:31:19 <alise__> *.
18:31:25 <alise__> Anything that can handle the former will be trivial to extend to do the latter.
18:31:28 <alise__> Job done.
18:31:28 <Sgeo> AWESOME
18:31:32 <pikhq> It was about 25G as individual PNGs.
18:31:36 <coppro> why did PNG reject APNG?
18:31:44 <Sgeo> The glasses even give clarity to crosseyed 3d images on my computer screen
18:31:45 <alise__> MNG exists?
18:31:46 <alise__> i guess
18:31:51 <pikhq> (... I had just gotten a new terabyte drive, had Internet2 bandwidth, and was curious how much space it took up)
18:32:14 <alise__> what's the highest-res QBasic mode with good colour I wonder
18:32:27 <zzo38> alise__: How many colors do you want?
18:32:28 <ais523> 12 I think, that's 640x480
18:32:30 <alise__> SCREEN 8, it seems
18:32:30 <pikhq> Archive.org from a university campus is *really* nice. You're limited by the Ethernet bandwidth. :)
18:32:31 <fizzie> They're the VGA video modes directly.
18:32:33 <ais523> all the higher resolutions were black-and-white IIRC
18:32:44 <alise__> that gets you 80x25 text, 640x200 graphics, and 16-pallette colour
18:32:47 <alise__> surely you can get more than 16...
18:32:58 <alise__> oh, I just need SCREEN 11 or 12
18:33:03 <alise__> 12
18:33:05 <ais523> alise__: 12 gets you 80x30 text, 640x480 graphics, and 16-palette colour
18:33:11 <fizzie> I guess it's missing the more screwy VGA modes you can get by mogling the registers.
18:33:19 <alise__> also my arrow keys are not working in qbasic WHY NOT
18:33:24 <alise__> ■ Assignment of up to 256K colors to 16 attributes
18:33:29 <zzo38> You can have 80x30 or 80x60 text in mode 12
18:33:30 <alise__> 12 gets me 256k colours.
18:33:35 <alise__> or are the 16 ones attributes
18:33:35 <ais523> alise__: only 16 at a time, though
18:33:38 <alise__> ah
18:33:40 <alise__> well that's fine
18:33:40 <coppro> pikhq: what was the method for the compression?
18:33:44 <alise__> now why aren't my arrow keys working ffff
18:33:52 <ais523> alise__: also, somehow, nearly all those 256K colours were almost identical shades of green
18:33:56 <ais523> IIRC
18:34:10 <ais523> or maybe I was just getting the colour redefinition wrong
18:34:12 <fizzie> ais523: It's six bits each for R, G, B; that shouldn't all be "shades of green".
18:34:21 <ais523> yes, agreed
18:34:22 <pikhq> coppro: Ffmpeg HuffYUV.
18:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, know of any easy way to disassemble a file that is isn't an object file, just raw x86 instructions
18:34:27 <zzo38> No, it isn't all shades of green unless you are using the wrong range of numbers
18:34:28 <alise__> SERIOUSLY WHY
18:34:29 <alise__> WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK
18:34:30 <pikhq> With FLAC audio.
18:34:33 <alise__> WHY DO ARROW KEYS OPEN THE MENU
18:34:40 <ais523> AnMaster: The Windows program DEBUG.COM could do it
18:34:42 <coppro> pikhq: neat
18:34:48 <AnMaster> ais523, on linux I mean
18:34:49 <pikhq> Works quite well.
18:34:53 <AnMaster> ais523, and x86_64
18:35:01 <ais523> AnMaster: blit it into memory, then load it in gdb
18:35:06 <zzo38> Use the correct range of numbers for the colors, as according to the manual
18:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hah I was just about to say that there must be some simpler way than that
18:35:18 <ais523> zzo38: I think using the wrong range is likely
18:35:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: objdump
18:35:23 <fizzie> You can get a VGA card up to 360x480 with a 256 color-palette (out of those 256k), but qbasic "screen" command only does the standard modes, so that's limited to 320x200 for 256-color modes.
18:35:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, "unknown file format"
18:35:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, it wants ELF
18:35:35 <AnMaster> this is raw instructions
18:35:44 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I always wondered how to get that mode as a child, I knew it existed
18:35:51 <alise__> aha
18:35:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: nasm's "ndisasm" tool can take raw files.
18:35:54 <alise__> just had to disable scancodes
18:36:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm that would mean intel syntax but meh. didn't have nasm around on that computer
18:36:23 <AnMaster> but useful to know in the future
18:36:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: objdump -b binary -M i386
18:36:32 <pikhq> I think.
18:36:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, x86_64 but...
18:36:37 <coppro> hmm... I had a funny idea
18:36:43 <fizzie> ais523: If you still wonder, http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article373.asp
18:36:46 <coppro> (disclaimer: idea is not actually funny)
18:36:51 <zzo38> alise__: Can you make QBASIC vector drawings? I should need a few created for my solitaire card program? (If not alise__, anyone else will also do)
18:36:51 <pikhq> objdump -b binary -M x86-64
18:37:15 <alise__> zzo38: I'm no good at using DRAW.
18:37:16 <zzo38> I know the commands for QBASIC vector drawings but I'm not as good at actual drawing the picture
18:37:34 <ais523> myndzi: stop making the logs detect as binary rather than text
18:37:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm objdump -b binary -M x86-64 -d file.dump doesn't work, it gives me "objdump: Can't disassemble for architecture UNKNOWN"
18:38:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, and objdump --help says x86-64 should work
18:38:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: You want maybe -m instead of -M?
18:38:19 <zzo38> I have made a few vector drawings in QBASIC, such as for suits and numbers, already
18:38:30 <pikhq> Yeah, that.
18:38:34 <fizzie> -m machi