←2010-05 2010-06 2010-07→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:32 <Sgeo_> There's a log of everyone who's walked off the edge of the world
00:00:36 <Sgeo_> I'm emailing it to myse
00:00:37 <Sgeo_> f
00:00:48 <alise> oh that sucicide
00:00:50 <alise> that's only temporary
00:00:52 <alise> *suicide
00:01:12 <AnMaster> night
00:01:14 <Sgeo_> The first suicide was Tue Apr 19 00:43:48 1994 PDT
00:01:17 <Sgeo_> Night AnMaster
00:01:22 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:01:28 <Sgeo_> The last was... this month
00:01:43 <Sgeo_> Ok, Alec is addicted to walking off the edge of the world
00:01:53 <alise> xD
00:02:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: What's beyond this edge... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA).
00:02:33 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/986515
00:04:10 <Sgeo_> Just sent em a mail
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00:04:44 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:06:01 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/986517
00:06:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
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00:09:44 * Sgeo_ decides it's a good thing he didn't try 'I want to leave LambdaMOO for three months' with quotes
00:11:15 <alise> I'm going to do something unprecedented.
00:11:23 <alise> Anyone want to help me code this music daemon?
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00:16:44 <Sgeo_> You step into the great gap to the west, your eyes shut tight. When you open them, you're back in the Real World again. Enjoy it.
00:17:16 <alise> what
00:17:22 <alise> did you suicide :P
00:17:59 <Sgeo_> No, just read the source
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00:18:40 <Sgeo_> I should be able to make a simulation
00:19:56 <Sgeo_> If you don't delete your mail, you can't walk off the edge
00:21:09 <alise> lol
00:22:53 <Sgeo_> Awesome. There is a pistol for Russian Roulette
00:23:03 <Sgeo_> Shooting it can newt you for 1-6 days
00:29:52 <alise> pikhq_: how likely do you think it is for a track title to have a tab in it?
00:31:05 <pikhq_> alise: Not particularly.
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00:31:58 <alise> pikhq_: Hmm... but if I'm supporting arbitrary Vorbis* metadata...
00:32:02 <alise> *Yes, it's actually Vorbis-specific.
00:32:06 <alise> So much for the Ogg container.
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00:33:31 <alise> pikhq_: Oh, I know! I'll use XML!
00:33:39 <pikhq_> alise: I thought that metadata was stuck in an Ogg Text stream?
00:33:45 <pikhq_> *ugh*
00:33:57 <alise> Apparently not
00:34:03 <alise> Also, now I have two problems! (I'm not actually using XML)
00:34:36 <alise> pikhq_: Also, although FLAC files work inside an Ogg container, very little software supports this, and FLAC has its own metadata format! This is because FLAC wasn't always a Xiph.Org project!~
00:34:42 <alise> FUN FUN FUCK ME IN THE ASS!
00:34:45 <alise> I hate software
00:34:58 <pikhq_> alise: So: Ogg sucks.
00:35:09 <alise> Yep. It's a container that... just contains. Literally. Nothing else.
00:35:22 <pikhq_> Urgh; that's such a pain.
00:35:37 <pikhq_> And if only Matroska didn't have an obsession with XML.
00:35:55 <alise> Vorbis metadata, called Vorbis comments, support metadata tags similar to those implemented in the ID3 standard for MP3. The metadata is stored in a vector of eight-bit-clean strings of arbitrary length and size. The size of the vector and the size of each string in bytes is limited to 232-1 (about 4.3 billion, or any positive integer that can be expressed in 32 bits). This vector is stored in the second header packet that begins a Vorbis bitstream.[43]
00:36:04 <alise> MY GOD, LIMITED TO 4.3 BILLION BYTES.
00:36:27 <alise> pikhq_: I didn't know Matroshka used XML. It's always worked well for me.
00:36:36 <alise> We should all use Matroshka.
00:36:58 <alise> Actually, this makes me wonder why there aren't any good standardised command-with-binary-arguments specs.
00:37:01 <Sgeo_> What about WebM?
00:37:03 <alise> ASN.1 does that doesn't it? Ew.
00:37:10 <alise> Sgeo_: no.
00:37:22 <alise> it only contains vp8 and vorbis. and is a sideset of matroshka
00:37:27 <alise> it's an insane subset of matroshka, with its own shit! yay!
00:37:32 <alise> I AM SO HAPPY.
00:37:45 <pikhq_> alise: It's some binary XML... Thing.
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00:39:47 <alise> x := ! "\1";; msg := x {"\1" x}+ "\r\n";;
00:39:57 <alise> xs should be preprocessed afterwards
00:40:00 <alise> to replace:
00:40:08 <alise> \2\2 with a \1
00:40:12 <alise> and \2\3 with a \2
00:40:14 <alise> Tada.
00:40:19 -!- uorygl has joined.
00:41:59 <alise> Although \2 is kind of ugly.
00:42:06 <alise> But then \255 is more common, isn't it?
00:42:09 <alise> UTF-8 and all.
00:42:22 <alise> pikhq_: I'd just use \0, but ... C.
00:43:10 <alise> "The IPC protocol is best documented in the source. But we encourage all developers to use the clientlib, is there something that the clientlib doesn't support or you don't like. Talk to us first before you start reversing our protocol."
00:43:13 <alise> Who needs documentation.
00:48:05 <alise> pikhq_: PUKE! xmms2 uses glib!
00:48:14 <Sgeo_> I think I died. I'm outside the Pearly Gates
00:48:41 <alise> It is my DUTY to create something betts!
00:48:46 <alise> *better than this
00:50:51 <alise> Happy June!
00:50:56 <alise> Or something!
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00:57:27 <Sgeo_> uorygl, join LambdaMOO
00:57:40 <alise> Hmm, it seems that I am in need of a tag-processing library.
00:57:42 <alise> Call it graffiti.
00:58:12 <Sgeo_> We could make an esotericers's hangout
00:58:17 <Sgeo_> A BF machine
01:01:46 <pikhq_> ALSODIE
01:02:09 <alise> pikhq_: Don't you like the soft feeling of a GObject class with all its furry little fields?
01:02:20 <alise> And those in-code declarations of it... aren't they wonderful?...
01:02:28 <alise> Okay, so it doesn't actually seem to define classes itself. But still!
01:02:41 <alise> Aand immediate problem reached; build systems suck.
01:02:44 <pikhq_> alise: Oh the boilerplate!
01:03:03 <pikhq_> And yes, build systems are universally awful.
01:03:17 <alise> SCons is definitely waful...
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01:03:28 <alise> CMake is most definitely awful... Oh, what's that one I'm thinking of...
01:03:29 <alise> *awful
01:03:36 <alise> That makepp thing is probably awful...
01:03:37 <pikhq_> *Autotools*.
01:04:01 <alise> pikhq_: NO.
01:04:08 <alise> Please suffer.
01:04:16 <alise> I will not use Autotools.
01:04:31 <alise> pikhq_: Or was that not a suggestion?
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01:07:22 <alise> <pikhq_> *Autotools*.
01:07:22 <alise> <alise> pikhq_: NO.
01:07:23 <alise> <alise> Please suffer.
01:07:23 <alise> <alise> I will not use Autotools.
01:07:23 <alise> <alise> pikhq_: Or was that not a suggestion?
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01:09:02 <alise> Well, Waf looks alright: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waf
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01:11:30 <pikhq> alise: That was an example of a truly awful build system.
01:11:36 <alise> Yes.
01:11:39 <alise> I think I'll just use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waf
01:11:46 <alise> I've seen others use it and the example looks not-abhorrent
01:12:20 <alise> pikhq: Also, no dependencies, in that it's a single file that only depends on Python that you include with your distribution.
01:12:22 <alise> So, yay?
01:12:57 <pikhq> alise: I get the feeling that a package maintainer will develop hatred for that.
01:13:07 <alise> pikhq: You don't edit that.
01:13:09 <alise> You edit the wscript file.
01:13:15 <pikhq> Not because Waf itself is abhorrent but becaust some idiot *will* invariably edit it and make it abhorrent.
01:13:22 <alise> *because
01:13:31 <alise> pikhq: You mean... someone will edit... the bundled waf?
01:13:38 <alise> pikhq: Well fuck, I'm not going to do that.
01:13:43 <alise> I'd have to be retarded to do that.
01:14:00 <alise> But anyway, it automatically does out-of-tree builds and seems to be structured well, so ++
01:14:41 <Sgeo_> uorygl, login?
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01:15:02 <mibygl> Sgeo_: I'm afraid I'm currently a bit jaded from nomics and their brethren for the moment. Ask again tomorrow.
01:15:14 <alise> def set_options(ctx):
01:15:14 <alise> ctx.add_option('--foo', action='store', default=False, help='Silly test')
01:15:14 <alise> def configure(ctx):
01:15:14 <alise> print('→ the value of foo is %r' % Options.options.foo)
01:15:16 <alise> How... sane.
01:15:24 <alise> mibygl: Jaded? Why? and MOOs are hardly nomics.
01:15:33 * alise checks Agora to investigate possible reasons
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01:15:47 <mibygl> I've barely looked at Agora in a longish time.
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01:16:19 <mibygl> I discovered them... a while ago, and it seems like they've never gone in the direction I've wanted them to.
01:16:25 <mibygl> So, jading.
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01:18:48 <alise> pikhq_: As a sysadmin, can you answer?: What do people have against using globs for c files in build systems?
01:18:54 <alise> C files aren't just going to magically appear there.
01:19:40 <pikhq_> alise: No clue.
01:20:03 <pikhq_> It's perfectly acceptable to sysadmins for such a glob to be there.
01:20:12 <alise> source = bld.path.ant_glob('**/*.c'),
01:20:18 <alise> I hope that 'ant' doesn't mean "ant build system".
01:20:23 <alise> Although I don't know why I hope that, as it's just a globbing function.
01:22:33 <cheater99> alise hello
01:22:36 * cheater99 waves
01:23:17 <alise> hello.
01:23:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:23:55 <cheater99> how r u?
01:24:04 <pikhq> Irritated.
01:24:13 <pikhq> Absolutely irritated.
01:24:47 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:25:35 <cheater99> not you
01:25:40 <cheater99> i don't care about you pikhq
01:25:43 <cheater99> i was asking alise
01:27:57 <alise> ok seriously shut up
01:28:12 <cheater99> :P
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01:42:34 <alise> pikhq: Okay, waf is starting to annoy me. XD
01:43:01 <alise> [The bad part of alise's brain pipes up. "Surely it can't be so hard? It's only one file for waf... so why not write... your own?"]
01:45:01 <alise> "This explanation is pretty boring so I'm going to spice it up with inappropriate swearing.
01:45:01 <alise> A mother fucking sinkhole like this bitch is formed by the gradual dissolution of punk ass subsurface rock (usually rock such as limestone or mother fucking carbonate rock) by circulating ground water. As the rock dissolves, big ass spaces and slutty caverns develop underground until only a bitch thin layer of support remains on top. At one shit-wank point that fucking layer also collapses revealing the years of titty fucking erosion beneath, and often an un
01:45:01 <alise> derground skank river far below.
01:45:01 <alise> Here's a mother fucking diagram."
01:45:42 <pikhq> XD
01:55:43 <alise> pikhq: Suggest me a build system
01:56:41 <pikhq> alise: Make it a single C file.
01:57:11 <alise> pikhq: Like SQLite!
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02:00:13 <alise> G O D!
02:00:29 <alise> I have all this shit written here and it's just BULLSHIT! Here's what I should have to write:
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02:01:38 <alise> build-root: build
02:01:38 <alise> c-program {
02:01:38 <alise> sources: **/*.c
02:01:38 <alise> target: belial
02:01:38 <alise> cflags: -Wall -Wextra
02:01:38 <alise> release { cflags: -O2 }
02:01:41 <alise> debug { cflags: -g }
02:01:42 <alise> }
02:03:35 <alise> pikhq: Please tell me to have the strength not to proliferate another build system.
02:04:03 <pikhq> alise: Have the strength to instead obsolete all languages that require nontrivial build systems.
02:04:19 <alise> pikhq: Oh, I've already that. But C is the best thing for this, unfortunately.
02:09:37 <alise> pikhq: But... it is a bad idea right?
02:10:15 <Sgeo_> alise, I made a simulation of the edge of the world
02:10:27 <Sgeo_> "It's not perfect... it will allow you to walk off even if you have mail
02:10:39 <Sgeo_> "Hm, MOO habits are starting to get to me
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02:24:16 <alise> pikhq: How queer; xmms always builds without optimisations.
02:24:24 <alise> In fact, it uses -O0 -g.
02:24:25 <alise> Always.
02:25:38 <pikhq> alise: That's... Awful.
02:26:46 <alise> pikhq: I think because it's "developmental software" etc.
02:27:27 <coppro> I want LLVM to get a native -> IR disassembler so that it can optimize anything
02:27:46 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with -O0 -g?
02:27:53 <alise> Sgeo_: Slow and big.
02:28:07 <Sgeo_> "Any reason?
02:28:39 <alise> No optimisations done, debugging info.
02:28:41 <alise> Any questions?
02:28:53 <coppro> you can at least strip it
02:29:46 <pikhq> Still big.
02:29:47 <Sgeo_> "I meant, why does it build with those options?
02:30:02 <pikhq> There's a lot of *ridiculously* simple stuff GCC doesn't do on -O0.
02:30:03 <alise> coppro: so what build system do YOU use.
02:30:06 <alise> Sgeo_: stop doing that " thing.
02:30:15 <alise> Sgeo_: and because they couldn't figure out how to make waf work either i guess :P
02:30:16 <Sgeo_> :wonders why it's angering alise
02:30:21 <alise> BECAUSE THIS IS IRC.
02:30:40 <pikhq> For instance, each and every memory access involves a load and a write.
02:30:41 <coppro> alise: Whatever the project uses
02:30:43 <Sgeo_> The first time, it really was an accident
02:31:03 <Sgeo_> waf?
02:31:36 <alise> coppro: if you start a project?
02:32:58 <coppro> alise: I usually build by hand to start since I want to avoid a build system as long as possible, and the project never gets to a point where I need one
02:33:11 <alise> ha
02:33:19 <alise> i'm only doing this first so it doesn't come back to bite me in the ass
02:33:41 <alise> maybe i will just use coadjute
02:33:42 <alise> Deewiant!
02:33:43 <coppro> When I need one, I pick randomly whichever one seems least bad to me at the time, currently Scons
02:33:48 <alise> is that advisable?
02:33:53 <alise> coppro: scons is unmaintained basically
02:34:11 <coppro> close, but not quite
02:34:24 <pikhq> It's also comparable with jabbing forks in the eye.
02:34:42 <alise> pikhq: Oh?
02:34:44 <coppro> compared to what? CMake?
02:35:00 <pikhq> alise: Scons is not a build system.
02:35:10 <pikhq> It is a library with which one can write a build system.
02:35:22 <coppro> I half agree
02:35:26 <alise> pikhq: indeed
02:35:34 <pikhq> And it's not even a good library.
02:35:45 <alise> I'm almost considering http://omake.metaprl.org/index.html now
02:35:51 <alise> It's a purely-functional language and
02:35:52 <alise> "Often, a configuration file is as simple as a single line
02:35:52 <alise> .DEFAULT: $(CProgram prog, foo bar baz)
02:35:52 <alise> which states that the program "prog" is built from the files foo.c, bar.c, and baz.c. This one line will also invoke the default standard library scripts for discovering implicit dependencies in C files (such as dependencies on included header files)."
02:35:54 <alise> is giving me false hope.
02:36:01 <alise> But seriously, Coadjute is ... good.
02:36:09 <alise> I just need assurance for Deewiant that it's good for C :P
02:36:15 <coppro> it /is/ a library with which one can write a build system, but it also comes with sufficient defaults to be used only as a build system
02:36:19 <Sgeo_> "The identifying number associated with an object is unique to that object. It was assigned when the object was created and will never be reused, even if the object is destroyed. Thus, if we create an object and it is assigned the number `#1076', the next object to be created will be assigned `#1077', even if `#1076' is destroyed in the meantime."
02:36:24 <Sgeo_> That's misleading, kind of
02:36:32 <alise> ("With support for: [...] Haskell!")
02:36:34 <coppro> sounds like SQL
02:37:06 <coppro> Can someone explain Sgeo's cow obssession?
02:37:13 <Sgeo_> Sure, at a physical level, that's how it works, but in general, LambdaCore's @recycle actually transforms the object into garbage, which can be used by @create
02:37:20 <Sgeo_> So in reality, object IDs are reused
02:37:39 <alise> coppro: cow?
02:37:43 <coppro> moo
02:37:49 <alise> lulz.
02:38:07 <alise> You know what this is bullshit, why do build systems suck
02:38:32 * Sgeo_ is saddened that he got it before alise did
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02:38:58 <alise> why
02:39:46 <alise> this is so depressing
02:40:20 <coppro> alise: because they have a ridiculous number of variables to cope with
02:40:29 <coppro> Scons is an excellent example of the why
02:40:31 <alise> I JUST WANT TO BUILD A C PROGRAM.
02:40:47 <coppro> then Scons will possibly do
02:40:54 <coppro> so will CMake
02:40:56 <coppro> or autotools
02:41:00 <alise> pikhq: Sysadmin! Why is scons shit for you?
02:41:05 <alise> coppro: haha have you ever used cmake
02:41:08 <alise> (or autotools)
02:41:24 <coppro> alise: Yes. They are in fact capable of building things... not much else, though.
02:41:51 <coppro> although really, the same could arguably said of Scons
02:42:15 <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment
02:42:31 <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
02:42:35 * coppro tries to work out what he's trying to say
02:42:43 <alise> me, you mean
02:42:46 <coppro> yes
02:42:49 <coppro> err, sorry, she
02:42:54 <alise> lol :P
02:42:58 <alise> I would also have accepted "it"
02:43:02 <pikhq> alise: It is *absolutely awful* to automate. Absolutely *awful*.
02:43:08 <alise> coppro: I was expecting "they're"
02:43:10 <coppro> `addquote <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
02:43:11 <alise> erm
02:43:13 <alise> coppro: I was expecting "you're"
02:43:18 <alise> coppro: HackEgo is broken
02:43:23 <coppro> alise: third person with /me
02:43:27 <alise> ok so explanation:
02:43:29 <HackEgo> No output.
02:43:31 <pikhq> At the very least cmake and autotools can be scripted.
02:43:33 <coppro> pikhq: Why?
02:43:39 <coppro> (genuinely curious)
02:43:45 <alise> (a) nuclear powered waffle iron -- it's meant to build programs. Instead, it's a full-blown, shitty programming language
02:44:00 <alise> (b) Powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment -- EDITING CMAKELISTS.TXT MAKES ME WANT TO KILL THINGS
02:44:14 <alise> (c) and it burns ... -- it's really hard to get it to work and you have to hack it a ton.
02:44:34 <pikhq> coppro: There is no single way to say simple, simple things like "I want to use this compiler" or "I want to use these compiler flags".
02:44:53 <coppro> pikhq: Ah, yeah.
02:45:01 <pikhq> You just have to *hope* that the bastard who used scons was so kind as to *write configuration logic*.
02:45:02 <coppro> that bit's always dumbfounded me
02:45:11 <coppro> on the plus side, the cache is epic
02:45:33 <coppro> a guy at the place I used to work came up with the brilliant idea of hardlinking the cache, which makes it even more epic
02:45:38 <pikhq> It is THAT. FUCKING. BAD.
02:47:01 <coppro> (seriously - no copying costs? YES PLEASE)
02:48:04 <alise> pikhq: What's best for you apart from autotools?
02:48:31 <coppro> and the cache is an absolute godsend if you have generated headers included by everything
02:48:50 <pikhq> alise: Well-written makefile.
02:49:04 <alise> pikhq: Mm.
02:49:15 <alise> pikhq: It's just that for a *developer* that's the worst solution :-)
02:49:19 <pikhq> A poorly-written one makes me kill people. A well-written one means I hit make and all's well.
02:49:19 <alise> ...Second best?
02:49:33 <pikhq> I'm not sure.
02:49:41 <coppro> A well-written makefile is usually pretty awesome, until you try to move outside its problem domain
02:49:56 <alise> "Autoscons - An Autotools replacement for SCons"
02:50:04 <coppro> You just have to *hope* that the bastard who used make was so kind as to *write configuration logic*.
02:50:25 <pikhq> coppro: Except that's actually the default.
02:50:54 <pikhq> It takes *extra work* to make it not handle CFLAGS and CC.
02:51:22 <coppro> gcc -Wall -Wextra foo.c main.c -o result ?
02:51:49 <alise> cat Makefile -- foo: foo.o bar.o
02:51:53 <alise> make -- builds it
02:52:03 <alise> make CC=... CFLAGS=... LDFLAGS=... CPPFLAGS=... -- builds it
02:52:48 <pikhq> coppro: Do you actually do that in make?
02:52:58 <alise> http://miller.emu.id.au/pmiller/software/cook/ This looks tempting. pikhq hates me now
02:53:08 <coppro> Unless make uses lots of magic that I don't know about, you still need to write the Makefile to use those variables, which is not a lot of effort, but is still greater than 0
02:53:14 <pikhq> alise: cook? I recall nice things about it.
02:53:23 <pikhq> coppro: Make uses a lot of magic that you don't know about.
02:53:24 <alise> pikhq: Except that Nobody Has It :-)
02:53:30 <alise> coppro: default rules
02:53:33 <pikhq> alise: Yes, that's the only bad thing. :P
02:53:36 <alise> coppro: welcome to 80s
02:53:59 <pikhq> coppro: Write that as: result: foo.o main.o
02:54:04 <coppro> ah, ok
02:54:17 <coppro> so yeah, well-written then
02:57:53 <alise> Query: What is release/debug enum? Build type? Build kind? Something one-word.
02:58:08 <coppro> I've heard variant
02:58:33 <coppro> there was another term though
02:58:35 <coppro> um...
02:59:47 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. When it comes down to build systems, the biggest thing is the ability to automatically configure nearly everything. This means accepting "CC" and "CFLAGS", making it easy to turn off configurable dependencies, etc.
02:59:57 <pikhq> The second biggest thing is *not being freaking broken*.
03:00:04 <Sgeo_> Note that integers and floating-point numbers are never equal to one another, even in the `obvious' cases.
03:00:06 <pikhq> I absolutely hate having to *rewrite* a build system.
03:00:10 <Sgeo_> I guess that saves some confusion
03:00:24 * pikhq still has nightmares from rewriting a Perl build-system to not be interactive
03:00:32 <pikhq> (said Perl build-system didn't work)
03:00:37 <coppro> wtf
03:00:39 <coppro> interactive?
03:00:46 <pikhq> Yes. *Interactive*.
03:01:10 <pikhq> This was for a package that included, in effect, its own OS. Because it was older than UNIX and later ported.
03:01:29 <pikhq> I still have nightmares.
03:01:34 <coppro> and had a *Perl* build system?
03:01:39 <pikhq> Yes.
03:01:48 <pikhq> It's still maintained.
03:01:56 <pikhq> By idiots, but still maintained.
03:04:05 <alise> Name the perps.
03:04:09 <pikhq> IRAF.
03:04:22 <pikhq> Some university; don't recall who did it.
03:04:35 <pikhq> It was originally proprietary, made GPL later.
03:04:47 <pikhq> I've found that what's absolutely *worst* is proprietary software that gets an open release.
03:05:10 <pikhq> Proprietary software tends to suffer from truly massive NIH syndrome.
03:05:22 <pikhq> For instance, there's Second Life.
03:05:26 <coppro> Conversely, the best in my experience is open-source stuff with significant corporate backying
03:05:27 <coppro> *backing
03:05:28 <pikhq> Which includes its own copy of the STL.
03:05:31 <pikhq> (written poorly)
03:05:36 <pikhq> coppro: Also agreed.
03:06:06 <pikhq> Because they have every incentive to do it right.
03:06:41 <Sgeo_> I think MOO was inspired by Perl
03:06:51 <Sgeo_> {first, second, ?third = 0} = args;
03:06:58 <pikhq> However, that doesn't seem to do anything about GCC.
03:07:33 <pikhq> There is no excuse for its build system.
03:07:36 <pikhq> And Mozilla.
03:07:37 <coppro> That's because it's run by people (a person?) who think(s) that all the corporate backers are trying to steal from them/him
03:07:38 <pikhq> *shudder*
03:07:40 <pikhq> Mozilla.
03:08:06 <coppro> They recently approved C++ for use... can you say clusterfuck?
03:08:20 <pikhq> coppro: Most GNU stuff has painful code, but it's at least got a reasonably automatible build system.
03:08:27 <pikhq> GCC is the exception.
03:08:42 <pikhq> It works differently than everything else for no good reason.
03:09:26 <pikhq> (of course, if you look into the details, autotools is awful, but it's at least easy on the surface.)
03:09:32 <alise> FUCK THIS SHIT
03:09:41 <pikhq> alise: ?
03:09:42 <alise> KILL ME
03:09:45 <coppro> the fact that it has to bootstrap itself pretty much tosses the idea of using any build system that exists in a normal fashion
03:09:48 <alise> FUCKING BUILD SYSTEMS
03:10:09 <pikhq> coppro: First: not really. Second: it doesn't have to bootstrap itself.
03:10:24 <alise> Fuckin' 3am, fuckin' have to get up at 9am, fuckin' A
03:10:30 <alise> 6 hours of sleep
03:10:33 <alise> fuckin' AAAAA++++++
03:10:35 <coppro> it does if the compiler it's using isn't GCC-compatible, which any portable build system should assume is not the case
03:10:59 <pikhq> coppro: Still, it shouldn't be hard to at least make a *sane* build system for that.
03:11:08 <coppro> that's true
03:11:20 <alise> fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfucikfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck
03:11:20 <pikhq> Even if it is custom, you can at least not make it incomprehensible.
03:11:28 <alise> Wow, that's a surprisingly low rate of fuckerrors.
03:11:34 <alise> Only one error; an "i".
03:11:48 <coppro> I know it actually wouldn't be too much work with Scons. Autotools will cry if you try. Not enough experience with CMake to know.
03:12:32 <coppro> alise: stop complaining about errors and go to sleep
03:12:33 <pikhq> Of course, GCC should build on targets that Python doesn't run on.
03:12:45 <alise> coppro: FUCK YOU I JUST WANT A BUILD SYSTEM :'(
03:13:01 <coppro> pikhq: Does it really require Python now too?
03:13:03 * alise googles "build system that doesn't suck" out of desperation
03:13:07 <alise> "Waf: a pleasant build system"
03:13:10 <alise> HAHAHAHAHA
03:13:20 <pikhq> coppro: scons does.
03:13:31 <coppro> ah, yeah :)
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03:13:49 <pikhq> alise: Sounds like you've become a sysadmin.
03:13:50 <pikhq> :P
03:13:56 <alise> let that go down in history as my official anti-endorsement
03:14:07 <pikhq> Or at least very very depressed.
03:14:09 <alise> "Makefile are not modular. Recursive Make is especially evil."
03:14:12 <alise> It should be "Makefiles".
03:14:14 <alise> You fail at grammar.
03:14:22 <alise> Not only are your opinions worthless, so is your English.
03:14:26 <alise> You should die in a fire now.
03:14:57 <alise> "The execution model just makes sense to me."
03:15:03 <alise> You dying JUST MAKES SENSE to me. Like, now. In a fire.
03:15:08 <alise> "Progress indication and colored output is built in, not an after thought. Like SCons, Waf build files are regular Python files."
03:15:13 <alise> Hooray, coloured fucking output
03:15:19 <alise> "Waf is fast. Faster than SCons."
03:15:24 <alise> Unlike your death which will be painfully slow
03:16:56 <alise> hahaha kill me
03:17:02 <alise> i must sleep soon, but first painful agonising death
03:17:44 <coppro> we should make a fortunes database from alise
03:17:52 <alise> it's called `quote
03:18:11 <alise> also i'm usually not this funny, at least i think i'm being funny right now, mostly out of anger though
03:19:13 <alise> "Have you considered bakefiles? They work in the same way as cmake does, and I have seen them used in practice before. http://bakefile.sourceforge.net/"
03:19:23 <coppro> a) `quote isn't working b) I can't do 'fortune alise' with quote
03:19:37 <coppro> Iakefile
03:19:42 <pikhq> alise: !AKEFILE?
03:19:48 <pikhq> (yes, that's a click)
03:19:49 <alise> Or perhaps "yourmotherhascancerandyourfatherdiedofaidsandalsoyouaregoingtodieverysooninanonspontaneouscombustion".
03:19:53 <alise> File.
03:20:08 <alise> "Bakefile's task is to generate native makefiles,"
03:20:09 <alise> Racist fuck.
03:20:22 <alise> OH! It's XML!
03:20:25 <alise> I feel HAPPY!
03:21:04 <alise> LinBuild is a Python-based, simple and user-friendly build system for C/C++ on Linux/Unix. It's intended to be distributed with your project, so there's no need to get it installed on the system.
03:21:05 <alise> LinBuild adopts some concepts from Waf and CMake and it is simply a single script that depends only on Python. LinBuild replaces GNU Make and makes it really easy to configure, build & install a C/C++ project.
03:21:05 <alise> LinBuild features e.g. automatic build dependency scanning of source files, multi-threaded build process and built-in supports for Qt4 and pkg-config.
03:21:07 <alise> I wonder if it's SHIT or not.
03:21:21 <alise> I bet it's shit.
03:21:30 <pikhq> All this because C is too shitty to handle the equivalent of "ghc --make"
03:21:34 <pikhq> (which I love)
03:21:58 <alise> It feels like a gigantic cock transmitted through my speakers is penetrating my forehead with hatred
03:22:05 <alise> And not in a good way, either
03:23:14 <alise> Oh! Look! Linbuild is just like waf except it violates Python coding conventions.
03:23:46 <coppro> We should organize a #esoteric coding marathon
03:23:50 <coppro> where we each pick a program the world needs
03:23:52 <coppro> and code it
03:23:59 <alise> Good idea. Let's make it last 10 years.
03:24:07 <coppro> no, that won't get done
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03:24:14 <alise> But we won't make it good otherwise.
03:25:18 <alise> pikhq: oh i know what's gone wrong
03:25:20 <alise> I named it belial
03:25:22 <alise> duh
03:25:24 <alise> obvious curse
03:25:32 <pikhq> alise: Ah, no wonder.
03:25:46 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. mk?
03:26:05 <alise> target belial
03:26:05 <alise> cc **/*.c
03:26:05 <alise> cc.flags := [-Wall -Wextra]
03:26:05 <alise> (variant = "debug") => cc.flags += -g
03:26:05 <alise> (variant = "release") => cc.flags += -O2
03:26:12 <alise> whoops look at that i just made a non-shitty build system
03:26:17 <alise> I hear that's not permissible
03:26:18 <pikhq> Whoops.
03:26:54 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I'm requesting System Administrator's Permission to write a build system on the provisio that it has minimal dependencies, is designed to be bundled with its file, and really, really, honestly, truly doesn't suck.
03:27:14 <alise> *privoso. s?
03:27:24 <alise> bundled with its file
03:27:25 <alise> err i mean like
03:27:27 <alise> bundled with the project
03:27:48 <pikhq> alise: Praise be unto the idea.
03:28:13 <pikhq> Pity you are short on time to write code ATM.
03:28:17 <alise> Amen, amen, oh!, amen. Thank you Lord.
03:28:24 <alise> Ah! But I return the next after-noon.
03:28:33 <alise> And then the day after, it is a most wondrous day: for that is a day free of obligations.
03:28:33 <pikhq> Alas!
03:28:41 <alise> Isn't "Alas!" negative, sir?!
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03:28:54 <alise> Oh! I am sorry! my existence displeases you.
03:28:58 <alise> I will shoot myself now.
03:29:12 <pikhq> Nay, it be both positive and negative, bearing 'pon context, my good sir.
03:30:11 <alise> I am enlightened as to the Glorious Tongue, stealing as it does from those best of the other tongues; just like religion!
03:31:02 <pikhq> Indeed; indeed.
03:31:57 <alise> pikhq: Can I make a huge request of you, esteemed sir? -- I am barely even able to recognise myself in making it, for I strive to be humble -- but could you remind me presently, the next time I am on this forum of discussion -- to continue the gifted work you have set me?
03:32:17 <alise> Sgeo_! It is time.
03:32:27 <Sgeo_> alise, :( bye
03:32:36 <pikhq> alise: Such a request, indeed, I can grant.
03:32:36 <alise> Sgeo_: here, you can have the job
03:32:39 <alise> oh
03:32:40 <alise> okay then
03:32:40 <alise> :D
03:32:41 <alise> :P
03:32:41 <alise> bye
03:33:07 <pikhq> And may you have luck in that land with the shadow of Death upon ye!
03:33:17 <Sgeo_> Hope you didn't spend the day not working at moving
03:33:49 <Sgeo_> I mean, assuming there was something you could have done today, with the holiday and all... I really don't know the procedures
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04:23:02 <Sgeo_> Ok, I'm going to consider LambdaMOO insecure
04:23:38 <coppro> just now?
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06:22:07 <Ilari_antrcomp> Sgeo_: What's so insecure about it?
06:22:28 <Sgeo_> Ilari_antrcomp, I was able to make an object that didn't have #1 as an ancestor
06:22:54 <Sgeo_> If someone tries looking at it, they'll just get an error
06:23:56 <coppro> how's that insecure?
06:25:03 <Sgeo_> I could put it in a public place and it would prevent anyone from seeing anything ther
06:25:05 <Sgeo_> *there
06:25:11 <coppro> oh
06:25:17 <Sgeo_> Well, I thin
06:25:20 <Sgeo_> *think
06:26:42 <Sgeo_> And it's difficult to destroy
06:27:07 <Sgeo_> But not impossible
06:27:16 <Sgeo_> I hope I'm not screwing up the $recycler somehow
06:27:28 <Sgeo_> Because things that go there don't actually get destroyed, just reparented
06:27:45 <Sgeo_> Ok, it's now $garbage
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06:58:54 <coppro> wtf
06:58:58 <coppro> why does HTTP stop at midnight
06:59:24 <coppro> can someone google me an alternate-port proxy?
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08:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
08:46:34 * oerjan hides
08:46:51 <oerjan> DON'T SHOUT AT ME oh wait
08:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I wasn't shouting...
08:48:35 <oerjan> i distinctly noted an exclamation mark
08:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> That's not the same as shouting.
08:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, I always do that when people enter.
08:49:46 <oerjan> YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ME!!!!!!!!!!1111111ELEVEN
08:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm just jealous of your topology skills.
08:52:03 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHA*
08:52:13 <oerjan> (shouting is mandatory in this situation)
08:54:42 <Sgeo_> LambdaMOO's housekeeper is dead
08:56:11 <oerjan> <coppro> why does HTTP stop at midnight <-- clearly you have the cinderella option
09:00:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_: Do you always go on about dying virtual worlds?
09:00:45 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, Second Life isn't widely considered to be dying
09:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> But you don't go on about it.
09:02:50 <Sgeo_> I do when I'm interested in it
09:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, like the floating-point gravity thing.
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09:16:17 * Sgeo_ should sleep now
09:17:08 <oerjan> !haskell log 8/log 10
09:17:14 <EgoBot> 0.9030899869919434
09:21:00 * Sgeo_ needs to get up at an unknown time, so I should NOT still be up
09:21:11 <Sgeo_> Despite how much good I may be doing for LambdaMOO
09:26:53 <Sgeo_> Eeep, there's a petition to shut down LambdaMOO
09:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Set up a counterpetition.
09:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Threaten those who sign it.
09:28:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Do whatever it takes.
09:29:55 <Sgeo_> There are currently no signers
09:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Then intimidate the person who started it!!
09:32:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Intimidate *someone*, dammit.
09:35:18 <Sgeo_> It seems to be from 1999 or so
09:39:15 <Sgeo_> "I think we need to be proactive and bomb the hell out of the houses of everyone who signed #100000"
09:43:24 <tombom> !haskell log 10
09:43:25 <EgoBot> 2.302585092994046
09:43:30 <tombom> !haskell log E
09:43:44 <oerjan> !haskell log (exp 1)
09:43:45 <EgoBot> 1.0
09:43:47 <tombom> foh right
09:43:55 <tombom> thanks :)
09:44:03 <Sgeo_> Please to be removing your dumb ballot to free quota for my Love Dungeon with Clapper(r) activated nipple electrodes.
09:44:08 <oerjan> !haskell pi -- on the other hand
09:44:10 <EgoBot> 3.141592653589793
09:54:22 * Sgeo_ needs to be asleep
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10:16:47 <tombom> !haskell pi - 0.141592653589793
10:16:48 <EgoBot> 3.0
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10:49:16 <AnMaster> aargh... an increment of 1 on the rotation sensor is equal to 65/216 degrees.
10:50:44 <AnMaster> and one whole rotation of the turn table is equal to 111.66666... on the rotation sensor. Since it gives integers this will be a pain to handle.
10:51:07 <AnMaster> and the controller for this is an embedded thing, so it is infeasible to handle non-integers anyway
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10:56:41 <Ilari> Ugh. It isn't even milliradians?
10:57:11 <AnMaster> Ilari, actually it is 16 / whole rotation of rotation sensor
10:57:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, but I was measuring wrt the turn table
10:57:30 <AnMaster> which this thing is connected to
10:58:14 <Ilari> At least one tank had main turret rotation scale in milliradians...
10:58:22 <AnMaster> Ilari, in case you missed it, I'm building a panoramic head for my camera (to avoid parallax). In lego that is.
10:58:36 <AnMaster> and well you selections are somewhat limited when it comes to gear ratio there
10:59:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, and yeah this is quite far from a tank :P
11:00:12 <AnMaster> Ilari, anyway you don't want too many gears in this case, since lego has a bit of "slack", which means that if the direction is reversed it will take a bit for it to propagate back to the rotation sensor if you have a lot of gears in between...
11:02:14 <Ilari> The length of 1 milliradian circular arc at 1km is 1m... Hmm... If one rotation of table were amplified to be 15 rotations of sensor, then it would give 1675 units per table turn?
11:02:38 <AnMaster> Ilari, what?
11:02:55 <AnMaster> well yeah requires fitting gears.
11:04:22 <Ilari> If one takes circular arc that has length one thoursandth of circle radius, then from center, it appears in angle of 1 milliradian. :-)
11:05:00 <AnMaster> which is tricky here. Also space around the turn table is at a premium, due to much reinforcement to be able to carry the load of a camera without bending or such. Sure it wouldn't mechanically break with some of that removed, but it would be unusable for the task due to not being level...
11:05:29 <AnMaster> I have to use counter weights anyway
11:06:08 <Ilari> 90 degree angles tend to be weak point. Adding short 45 degree support beams improves things a lot.
11:06:44 <AnMaster> Ilari, you mean at the base? it has enough area to not be able to tip over even at extreme imbalance.
11:07:28 <AnMaster> and on top of the turn table the load will either be near the center or far out in a given direction
11:07:55 <AnMaster> (depends on adjustment, the whole thing can be adjusted for different lenses, since the no-parallax point will differ
11:08:02 <AnMaster> )
11:09:25 <Ilari> E.g. if one has two hollow cubes built from 20 beams, the beam joints will be the weak spot. But adding 44 short support beams connecting each two adjacent beams will improve strength greatly.
11:10:11 <AnMaster> Ilari, are you talking about something completely different from me? As this seems to not apply here at all.
11:10:23 <AnMaster> as in, lego
11:10:43 <AnMaster> oh wait you don't know the design
11:10:44 <AnMaster> hm
11:10:55 <AnMaster> should take a photo, not that it is completely finished yet
11:11:17 <Ilari> Does the point where axis connects to table top need reinforcement?
11:11:37 <AnMaster> Ilari, axis as in turn table center?
11:11:44 <Ilari> Yes.
11:12:05 <AnMaster> well yes it is quite reinforced. Thankfully there are no "active" things to route through there
11:12:33 <AnMaster> the base is just a sturdy base, all the motors and such is in the turning bit above
11:13:25 <AnMaster> why? 1) because the battery box would be an excellent counter weight to the camera 2) because this will need to rotate 360° and I don't want a twisted cable in the middle
11:13:29 <Ilari> How I would reinforce table (but I haven't tried to do this): Few beams plus 45 deg support beams connecting it to axis.
11:13:46 <AnMaster> Ilari, let me find a picture of the lego turn table used as the core of it
11:14:16 <AnMaster> argh peeron has it as two parts
11:14:24 <AnMaster> also peeron is loading very slowly today
11:15:14 <AnMaster> Ilari, http://media.peeron.com/ldraw/images/47/2856.png and http://media.peeron.com/ldraw/images/47/2855.png
11:15:27 <AnMaster> those are in reality joined together quite well
11:15:42 <AnMaster> never been able to take them apart
11:15:48 <AnMaster> (they came in the box as one part)
11:16:13 <AnMaster> Ilari, there are some "rests" for the above structure further out from this base, where some wheels can rest
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11:16:21 <AnMaster> so the center doesn't take the whole load
11:16:40 <AnMaster> (in my design that is)
11:17:09 <Ilari> Ah, wheels... That's one way to reinforce it.
11:18:04 <AnMaster> Ilari, well, that spreads the load further out, making it more stable, since there is some slack in the joint between those parts so it will not stay completely level if you put a load at a beam attached out from the top of it
11:18:47 <Ilari> BTW: Merry-go-round with magnetic bearings might be quite wild ("unsafe"). :-)
11:18:50 <AnMaster> Ilari, it does however not break without those. So for purely mechanical reasons that turn table is enough
11:19:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, heh?
11:20:12 <AnMaster> Ilari, anyway, I took a pause from building this while trying to figure out how to best program it. The plan is to figure out how long to wait between rotating and taking shots with the camera by using a lego light sensor aimed at the memory card status led
11:20:13 <AnMaster> :)
11:20:18 <Ilari> And if one wants something truly insane, use electromagnetic levitation with capability to have rotating EM wave.
11:20:51 <AnMaster> Ilari, don't forget to put up a warning sign about "do not take any pacemakers or harddrives on this ride"
11:24:51 <Ilari> Because rotating EM wave will make the top plate rotate. And it doesn't take that great speed to need great force to avoid falling off. 0.5 revolutions per second at 5m would need 5g...
11:26:41 <AnMaster> hah
11:26:48 <Ilari> To avoid it being too crazy, rotating EM wave would only be usable to cancel out most of remaining friction and air resistance...
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11:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are we talking about rotating EM waves?
11:27:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, would humans survive this speed anyway?
11:27:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I have no clue
11:27:51 <Ilari> With that kind of acceleration, they would fly off...
11:28:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, strapped in? That is common on fast amusement rides
11:28:43 <Ilari> Merry-go-round? Those aren't usually strapped...
11:28:58 <AnMaster> Ilari, true but your one would require it
11:29:30 <Ilari> Those numbers were just example. Obiviously 5G is far too extreme.
11:29:49 <AnMaster> ah
11:30:25 <AnMaster> Ilari, so how did we get from lego technic turn tables to merry-go-round with rotating EM waves?
11:30:29 <AnMaster> I still haven't figured out
11:30:42 <Ilari> Both turn? :->
11:31:05 <AnMaster> hm okay
11:32:59 <Ilari> Those aren't the only "turned to 11" versions of common playground objects... Large teflon-coated slides anyone? :-> :->
11:33:35 <Ilari> (preferably painted white if possible without compromising slipperyness). :->
11:33:47 <AnMaster> Ilari, why white
11:34:22 <AnMaster> the only reason I can think of is heat. And that would need extreme speeds
11:34:34 <AnMaster> plus I'm not sure it applies to sliding on ground
11:34:56 <Ilari> Solar heating. Metal slides tend to really heat up in sunshine.
11:35:09 <AnMaster> it is however the reason why concorde were mostly white (excluding logo, which was restricted in size due to heat reasons)
11:36:47 <Ilari> Swing with solid support rods axled to top beam... :-)
11:37:32 <AnMaster> Ilari, uh uh
11:37:47 <AnMaster> Ilari, you still won't get the required speed manually
11:37:53 <AnMaster> you would need a powered swing
11:38:39 <AnMaster> and that would require something other than chain for suspending the swing from the beam
11:38:44 <AnMaster> something solid
11:39:04 <Ilari> Resonant pumping can bulid great amplitudes. Normally chain bending restricts it.
11:39:41 <AnMaster> Ilari, so manual start and then powered rotation of the chain mount?
11:39:58 <AnMaster> since without a decent initial speed it would just spool up the chain in that case
11:40:01 <AnMaster> like a which or such
11:40:04 <Ilari> I don't know if powered rotation is even necressary there.
11:40:24 <AnMaster> Ilari, you couldn't get it to rotate 360° otherwise
11:40:38 <AnMaster> and that is the goal right? To turn it into a centrifuge
11:40:53 <AnMaster> hm I suspect you would need a counter weight
11:41:03 <AnMaster> so yeah, solid suspension is probably required
11:42:23 <Ilari> What is maximum swing angle of ordinary swing? Something like 150 degrees?
11:42:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, I have no idea
11:43:17 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if any branches of mathematics have ever been proven inconsistent.
11:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> (Answers on a postcard)
11:44:06 <AnMaster> eh?
11:44:08 <Ilari> Also, how large amplitude one can archive with solid-beam swing might depend on bearings. Good bearings allow larger amplitudes (assuming pumping beyond +-90 degrees is not possible.
11:44:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh, read it as "comics on a postcard" somehow
11:44:23 <Ilari> *might allow
11:45:38 <AnMaster> Ilari, with solid beams you can use an external engine anyway
11:45:49 <AnMaster> strapping yourself in is recommended for safety reasons
11:45:53 <AnMaster> probably a back rest too
11:47:14 <Ilari> Back is surpisingly weak. I almost once really hurt my back when rollerskating by doing too sharp turn...
11:49:09 <Ilari> I once saw large swing (meant for lots of people at once) that reportedly rotate 360 degrees...
11:50:02 <Ilari> *could rotate
11:50:56 <AnMaster> huh
11:50:59 <AnMaster> where?
11:51:41 <Ilari> Some place near where I live...
11:53:03 <Ilari> It was built of wood...
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11:56:56 <AnMaster> Ilari, huh. Any photo?
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12:00:36 <Ilari> Nope...
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13:10:49 <AnMaster> Ilari, oh btw, that microcontroller I'm using have: http://sprunge.us/GJNG
13:11:02 <AnMaster> hm should test float and double
13:11:07 <AnMaster> would be emulated anyway
13:14:07 <AnMaster> wtf, sizeof(float) == sizeof(double) == 4
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14:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
14:27:21 <myndzi> |
14:27:21 <myndzi> /`\
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14:40:26 <AnMaster> hm
14:40:36 <AnMaster> I have a variant of the 4 colour problem here
14:40:47 <AnMaster> which I'm not sure what the answer is to
14:40:50 <AnMaster> basically:
14:42:54 <AnMaster> Assume you have a perfectly flat plane of finite size, you want to radio coverage everywhere, that is fill the plane with circles of a given size such that every point is in at least one circle. Overlap is allowed but should be minimised. No two overlapping circles must have the same colours (that is, different frequencies so you don't get interference). How many colours would you need?
14:43:35 <AnMaster> the whole plane would be rectangular
14:44:23 <AnMaster> maybe calling it a variant is stretching things a bit though
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14:49:58 <Deewiant> Seems like two separate problems to me
14:50:18 <Deewiant> First solve the coverage issue and then colour the resulting graph
14:50:46 <AnMaster> probably
14:51:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wonder what sort of placing would give minimal overlap
14:52:03 <Deewiant> (There's no such thing as a "4 colour problem": there's a 4 colour theorem, and then there's a problem called graph colouring)
14:52:17 <Deewiant> (Or a class of problems, I guess)
14:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and then, is the "minmal area with any overlap" solution also the one with least colours...
14:53:01 <relet> minimal overlap = zero, or the general case allowing some overlap?
14:53:18 <AnMaster> relet, see the question above. Minimal overlap would not be zero here
14:53:27 <AnMaster> you can't tile the plane with circles afaik
14:53:36 <AnMaster> not without getting some space in between
14:53:50 <relet> ah, sorry. I misthought that as minimal non-covered area
14:54:49 <AnMaster> anyway, one could imagine the solution with least area where there is any overlap is one where you have some points with n circles overlapping, but there is another solution where the total area with any overlap is more but there are at most n-1 different circles overlapping in one point
14:54:51 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
14:54:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Depends on the constraints on the circle size
14:55:13 <Deewiant> If we can make one huge circle covering the whole thing, that's obviously optimal as far as colours go
14:55:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well all circles have to have the same size, wasn't that given ?
14:55:26 <Deewiant> Sure
14:55:33 <relet> yup. you can either go for optimal packing, and add smaller circles inbetween, or pessimal packing and add larger circles.
14:55:33 <Deewiant> So hmm
14:55:43 <AnMaster> hm
14:55:57 <AnMaster> brb, need to help person with high fever... :(
14:55:59 <Deewiant> You'll get a lot of overlap if you can't even reduce the circle size, I think
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14:56:27 <Deewiant> (Unless your circle size is such that the circles degenerate into points: no overlap and 2-colourable)
14:56:54 <Deewiant> Or wait, only overlaps must have the same colours, so 1-colourable
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15:02:20 <AnMaster> back
15:02:41 <AnMaster> hm
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15:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise isn't around, is he?
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15:06:19 <AnMaster> "setting bit 2 (mask interrupts) to 1 will mask all interrupts except NMI". Seems like a quite reasonable statement eh?
15:06:23 <AnMaster> now expand NMI
15:06:37 <AnMaster> "setting bit 2 (mask interrupts) to 1 will mask all interrupts except non-maskable interrupts"
15:06:41 <AnMaster> now that seems slightly silly
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15:08:09 <AnMaster> oh nice alternative to having a reserved bit in your flags register: "Bit 6—User Bit (U): This bit can be written and read by software (using the LDC, STC, ANDC,
15:08:09 <AnMaster> ORC, and XORC instructions)."
15:08:23 <AnMaster> (wtf at that linebreak, meh)
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15:59:17 <cheater99> like a satellite, i'm in an orbit all the way around you
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16:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
16:42:49 <oerjan> PHANTOM_HOOVER
16:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT!
16:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you even pronounce "oerjan"?
16:43:56 <oerjan> ___ _ ___
16:43:56 <oerjan> / _ \| |__|__ \
16:43:56 <oerjan> | | | | '_ \ / /
16:43:56 <oerjan> | |_| | | | |_|
16:43:56 <oerjan> \___/|_| |_(_)
16:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, nice kerning.
16:44:41 <oerjan> figlet is cool
16:45:30 <oerjan> oerjan is pronounced like ørjan, naturally
16:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> And how is that pronounced?
16:46:11 <oerjan> just the way it is written >:)
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16:46:26 <CakeProphet> ...weird
16:46:36 <CakeProphet> ircii looked completely different last time I used it
16:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you tried turning it off and on again?
16:49:17 <CakeProphet> yeah
16:49:22 <CakeProphet> it's weird actually ircii wasn't installed
16:49:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology
16:49:27 <CakeProphet> maybe I'm just crazy and hallucinated using it
16:50:35 <CakeProphet> oh... it was irssi maybe?
16:50:37 <CakeProphet> brb
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16:51:18 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: [øɾjɑn] or thereabouts I guess
16:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I didn't get a chance to ask him if he was sure that it was plugged in.
16:52:09 <oerjan> Deewiant: i _think_ the ø should be an oe ligature, according to that article
16:53:05 <Deewiant> Hmm, I was looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language#Vowels
16:53:39 <oerjan> yes i noticed they disagreed
16:53:59 <Deewiant> But if that's what the short one is to be, then presumably yes
16:54:03 <oerjan> #Vowels doesn't distinguish short and long
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16:54:11 <Deewiant> It doesn't mention œ at all
16:54:26 <Deewiant> Which is why I didn't look into it any further :-P
16:54:41 <Deewiant> But yeah, I guess /œɾjɑn/ is closer to the mark
16:58:43 <oerjan> * Phantom_Hoover wonders if any branches of mathematics have ever been proven inconsistent.
16:59:37 <oerjan> i do recall an anecdote about someone doing his thesis or something on a complicated subject, and that at the defense or something someone pointed out that the only example of his structure was the empty set (or something)
16:59:45 <oerjan> you can tell my memory is vague there :D
17:00:35 <oerjan> of course any subject that depends on an unproven hypothesis could face the same problem
17:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> But I mean something like the axioms being inconsistent.
17:01:31 <oerjan> i also recall someone once proved a theorem by first giving a proof assuming the riemann hypothesis (i think) was true, and then a proof assuming it was false
17:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Like coming up with a proof that 1=0.
17:02:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you know there is a theory of odd perfect numbers - but no one has ever found an actual example or proved they don't exist...
17:03:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh, you could say naive set theory is such a branch
17:03:24 <oerjan> russell proved it inconsistent with his paradox
17:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, indeed.
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17:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, is logic an axiomatic system?
17:04:28 <oerjan> interesting question
17:04:48 <oerjan> you need at least one inference rule
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17:05:13 <CakeProphet> ...there we go.
17:05:18 <CakeProphet> this client is superior
17:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you sure it's plugged in?
17:05:26 <oerjan> and then you can do the rest with axiom _schemas_, i think.
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17:05:50 <oerjan> (an infinite set of patterns that are all axioms)
17:06:21 * CakeProphet defines a logical system that has an infinite number of axioms.
17:06:38 <oerjan> um wait
17:06:55 <oerjan> the set of patterns is finite of course, but they describe an infinite set of axioms, is what i mean
17:07:13 <CakeProphet> tl;dr... I'm busy defining an infinite set of axioms.
17:07:41 <CakeProphet> explicitly, of course.
17:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: Aren't they basically fancy axioms?
17:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The patterns.
17:08:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it depends on how you define an axiom
17:08:32 <oerjan> they're not single propositions of the actual logic
17:09:41 <CakeProphet> hmmm... okay, so my axioms are going to be enumerated
17:09:43 <oerjan> they contain meta-variables. that's sort of the point really, when you go this deep in defining logic you reach a point where you cannot escape having the _meta-theory_ being more complicated than the actual theory you are describing...
17:09:52 <CakeProphet> the odd ones disprove Godel's incompleteness theorem
17:10:03 <CakeProphet> the even ones determine if an aribtrary program halts.
17:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover> How do the odd ones do that?
17:10:29 <CakeProphet> by being axioms, duh.
17:10:58 <Phantom_Hoover> So they all state that "Gdel's incompleteness theorems are false"?
17:11:00 <CakeProphet> that's like asking how equality works.
17:11:11 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: no, not explicitly
17:11:15 <oerjan> CakeProphet: btw godel's incompleteness theorem requires your axioms to be recursively enumerable iirc
17:11:27 <CakeProphet> but each one achieves that .
17:11:38 <oerjan> which probably thwarts your project in principle
17:11:52 <CakeProphet> well no...
17:12:07 <CakeProphet> the ones divisble by 5 disprove that part of GIT
17:12:22 <CakeProphet> in doing so... they refer to all the axioms divisble by 5
17:12:24 <oerjan> so basically your theory is inconsistent. got it ;)
17:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Axiom 1: Axiom 2 is false. Axiom 2: Axiom 1 is true.
17:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Or perhaps Axiom 2: Axiom 1 is false.
17:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that one.
17:13:22 <CakeProphet> either.
17:13:48 <CakeProphet> for axiom 2 to be false in the first example... axiom 1 would have to be false
17:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wait, the second is consistentish.
17:14:24 <CakeProphet> oh wait... no that works.
17:14:36 <CakeProphet> ...fuck, I don't know.
17:15:41 <CakeProphet> Axiom 0: your mom is crazy in bed Axiom N: Axiom N-1 is true
17:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> In the first system, Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2
17:16:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Axiom 2 → ¬Axiom 1
17:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2 → Axiom 1.
17:16:37 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Assume you have a perfectly flat plane of finite size, you want to radio coverage everywhere, that is fill the plane with circles of a given size such that every point is in at least one circle. Overlap is allowed but should be minimised. No two overlapping circles must have the same colours (that is, different frequencies so you don't get interference). How many colours would you need?
17:17:11 <CakeProphet> oerjan: all of them.
17:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> In the second, Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2
17:17:22 <oerjan> i _think_ minimal overlap may be a hexagonal pattern, isn't that the equivalent to kepler's theorem in two dimensions
17:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Axiom 2 → Axiom 1
17:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 1
17:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> QED.
17:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The first is quasi-consistent, the second is inconsistent.
17:18:22 <oerjan> and i think that requires exactly 4 colors
17:19:33 <oerjan> 4 is clearly enough since this is planar
17:20:12 <oerjan> a b
17:20:18 <oerjan>
17:20:20 <oerjan> er
17:20:23 <oerjan> a b
17:20:25 <oerjan> c d
17:20:32 <oerjan> e
17:20:48 <oerjan> hm wait
17:21:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a matter of finding a tile, isn't it?
17:21:05 <oerjan> perhaps 3 is enough
17:22:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well hexagonal is the densest _packing_, i'm pretty sure, so it probably also gives least overlap (just enlarge the circles of the packing until they cover all)
17:22:18 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean for the colouring.
17:22:20 <oerjan> and only neighbors would overlap
17:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Find a tile with which you can cover the plane without conflict.
17:23:28 <oerjan> i don't see what you mean, although the coloring would probably be periodic and so have something like a tiling associated
17:23:49 <oerjan> oh hm
17:23:56 <oerjan> a b c a b c a b c
17:24:04 <oerjan> c a b c a b c a b
17:24:08 <oerjan> 3 is enough
17:24:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
17:24:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: 3 is enough for a hexagonal pattern
17:24:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm okay
17:25:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you then consider the circles to include the edge or not?
17:25:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think that matters
17:25:53 <oerjan> oh wait
17:26:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, I would consider it an open set
17:26:10 <AnMaster> in this case
17:26:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: it matters only if the radius needs to reach to the center of neighbors. is it that large?
17:26:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, the edge? no it is of course infinitely thin or something
17:27:13 <AnMaster> as in the difference between [0,n] and [0,n)
17:27:16 <oerjan> if it doesn't reach to the center of neighbors, then it cannot overlap anything other than the neighbors
17:27:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh edge... i'm ignoring your finite area, this covers the whole plane
17:28:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, do two circles meet in a point anywhere? as in edges touching each other and no overlap
17:28:54 <AnMaster> then that difference for the circle would matter, wouldn't it?
17:29:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, if you see what I mean?
17:29:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: no i don't think so
17:29:55 <oerjan> i mean
17:29:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, "don't think you see what I mean"?
17:29:57 <oerjan> a b
17:29:58 <oerjan> c
17:30:24 <oerjan> then a b and c circles would intersect in a common point, but each pair of circles would overlap
17:30:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, the thing was if there was some point that was only covered by the edges of two circles, and no overlap at all.
17:30:40 <AnMaster> s/thing/question/
17:31:04 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's an open set then there are points not covered by oerjan's packing.
17:31:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh right, the common point would be that
17:31:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that is an issue I think
17:31:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, thanks for understanding what I meant :)
17:31:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: i suspect you cannot get a minimum coverage without there being such points
17:31:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, how?
17:31:50 <oerjan> because there aren't such points you can probably shrink some circle
17:32:12 <oerjan> so there is no truly minimal solution
17:32:26 <oerjan> *because if there
17:32:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, all circles were to have the same size. As was implied by "circles of a given size"
17:32:38 <AnMaster> same given size obviously
17:32:42 <oerjan> oh
17:32:47 <Phantom_Hoover> You can get arbitrarily close to optimum packing.
17:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> With circles the same size.
17:32:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah, good enough I guess
17:33:00 <oerjan> well still. you can probably shrink _all_ circles by an epsilon.
17:33:08 <CakeProphet> hmmm I wonder how tree-based programming would work.
17:33:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Lisp?
17:33:17 <CakeProphet> like, similar semantics to stackbased but with trees.
17:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, with trees as the primary data structures.
17:33:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, they are all unit circles. But shrinking them would just scale the entire thing
17:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, Lisp is sort of that, due to the structure of the lists.
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17:34:10 <AnMaster> and possibly add some more on the edges of the finite plane
17:34:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: well yeah. hm i guess this actually _would_ depend on your finite area, come to think of it
17:34:24 <CakeProphet> you could probably have an operation that's something like "take the current root tree, copy it, and push onto tree" or something
17:34:32 <CakeProphet> that'd be kind of crazy though.
17:34:33 <oerjan> because the finite area determines how tightly things fit
17:34:35 <CakeProphet> or.. pointless.
17:34:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, I don't consider overshooting this area to be an issue
17:34:54 <AnMaster> at least I didn't have that in mind as an issue
17:35:04 <CakeProphet> well, maybe not pointless. If you didn't copy and simply references you could get circular behavior.
17:35:13 <CakeProphet> *referenced
17:35:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: anyway i was ignoring the finiteness because it seemed like a finite area might complicate the pattern of circles (and i'm too lazy for that ;D)
17:36:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh
17:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case, it depends entirely on the shape of the area.
17:36:57 <CakeProphet> firall x. 1
17:37:02 <CakeProphet> *forall
17:37:05 <CakeProphet> deep. right?
17:37:25 <oerjan> CakeProphet: that's essentially graph/tree rewriting, it's a well-known strategy for implementing functional languages
17:38:57 <CakeProphet> ...are you sure it's similar. I mean like, how Glass is stack-based, but you "push" and "pop" to a tree instead.
17:39:12 <CakeProphet> with each operation, sequentially.
17:39:44 <oerjan> CakeProphet: well it's complicated than just pushing and popping i guess
17:40:01 <oerjan> CakeProphet: also a stack of trees is equivalent to a single tree, in a sense
17:40:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well it was given as rectangular in my original question
17:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah,
17:41:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Then it depends on the ratio of the range of the transmitters to the edges, among other things.
17:41:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yep, but extending outside the finite area was not considered a problem. Nor overlap outside of the area
17:42:18 <AnMaster> and I did not have any specific ratios in mind originally
17:42:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually i don't think two circles can overlap outside without overlapping inside, assuming their centers are inside
17:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> No, they can't.
17:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless the area is concave.
17:43:27 <AnMaster> lessons learned: it is impossible to state any problem involving anything finite with enough detail. Where enough detail is defined as "a mathematician can't think of another question to ask to clarify the problem"
17:43:32 <oerjan> yeah it follows from convexity and the midpoint between the centers always being in the overlap area if there is any
17:43:36 <AnMaster> ;P
17:44:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure but the overlap area outside would not be counted towards the total
17:44:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh you mean for minimizing, right
17:44:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, exactly
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17:45:30 <pikhq> GAH
17:45:36 <pikhq> IE6 IT STILL LIVES
17:45:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually when i think about it there isn't really any reason to minimize the overlap area. in fact you would want to maximize it in practise, under the coloring restriction
17:46:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, now replace the rectangle with an area defined as the coastline of norway on one side, then a line modified by a sine wave on the other. Have fun ;P
17:46:11 <oerjan> (better coverage if there is a failure with a sender)
17:46:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure, but senders cost money
17:46:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh well right, perhaps minimizing the _number_ of senders rather than area
17:46:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you know how many watt a typical radio transmitter is rated for?
17:47:05 <oerjan> no f* idea
17:47:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, iirc 60000 W was the max in Sweden
17:47:33 <AnMaster> for Sveriges Radio obviously, not for "local to the city" stations ;P
17:48:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, so yeah, it costs quite a bit with senders. Even excluding the cost for the "hardware"
17:48:37 <AnMaster> just the electricity bill must be fantastic...
17:49:01 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> alise isn't around, is he?
17:49:04 <AnMaster> well, fantastic is wrong word, horrible maybe
17:49:07 <oerjan> maybe tomorrow, i think he said
17:50:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm the electricity bill alone would scale with area up to the maximum, wouldn't it
17:50:33 <oerjan> or wait
17:51:16 <oerjan> i guess transmission in the atmosphere is not trivial
17:52:01 <oerjan> for one thing, does it count as spreading in two or three dimensions
17:52:14 <oerjan> (beyond a certain distance)
17:52:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, of course this does not apply as easily to "real life"
17:52:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, what with the issues you mentioned. Plus mountains and tall buildings and so on
17:53:10 <CakeProphet> ...hmmm, I think I have a good idea for an tree-based esolang.
17:53:17 <CakeProphet> with nifty control flow structures.
17:53:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, and local heat variations in the atmosphere would mess things up as well I suspect.
17:53:39 <CakeProphet> and the file system embedded in the tree structure. :)
17:53:40 <AnMaster> I'm not sure if you can get radio mirages. but that would be awesoem
17:53:43 <AnMaster> awesome*
17:53:52 <AnMaster> just completely awesome
17:54:02 <CakeProphet> technically a graph, but mostly a tree.
17:54:16 <oerjan> huh
17:55:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, "huh" about what?
17:56:37 <oerjan> radio mirages
17:56:45 <AnMaster> ah
17:56:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, I never heard of it though. Sadly
17:56:59 <AnMaster> would be awesome indeed
17:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Stallman is a very strange man
17:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> .
17:57:30 -!- comex has joined.
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17:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I get the sense that my computer is bragging.
18:00:08 <CakeProphet> I wonder if Stallman smokes herb.
18:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> "Oh, look, I ran 1.3 million CPU cycles in a millisecond, what have you done lately?"
18:04:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:04:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it said that?
18:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Not in as many words.
18:05:10 <AnMaster> ah
18:05:39 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I may make it do that.
18:06:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wait, your computer is only 1.3 GHz?
18:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it was doing other stuff.
18:07:11 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> "Oh, look, I ran 1.3 million CPU cycles in a millisecond, what have you done lately?"
18:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover> That's just the output from a time on some Lisp code.
18:07:20 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell that gives you 1.3 GHz
18:07:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you mean your numbers were made up?
18:07:39 <pikhq> Dude, ATM my computer is running at *500 MHz*.
18:07:50 <pikhq> Erm.
18:07:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm slow for cpufreq
18:07:54 <pikhq> *800*.
18:07:59 <AnMaster> ah more reasonable
18:08:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean I timed some Lisp code, it took 1 ms and 1.3 gigacycles.
18:08:24 <pikhq> Granted, this is because my clock rate is turned way down due to low demand. :)
18:08:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how did you get the 1.3 gigacycles number?
18:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> That is what the TIME function printed.
18:08:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, is that some byte code interpreter cycle or CPU cycles?
18:09:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it says "processor cycles".
18:09:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence I assume CPU.
18:09:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah multitasking might be messing things up
18:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, SBCL compiles to native code.
18:09:44 <Phantom_Hoover> So bytecode is implausible.
18:10:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I can't think of any obvious way to measure cycle count on x86. At least not one that would be feasible implementing outside a program that specifically does that
18:10:54 <AnMaster> what with the varying delay on instructions, out of order, super scalar.
18:10:56 <AnMaster> and so on
18:11:01 <AnMaster> oh and cache effects
18:11:03 <AnMaster> don't forget that
18:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea how it measures it.
18:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (describe 'time)
18:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> TIME names a macro:
18:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Lambda-list: (FORM)
18:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Documentation:
18:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Execute FORM and print timing information on *TRACE-OUTPUT*.
18:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover>
18:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> On some hardware platforms estimated processor cycle counts are
18:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> included in this output; this number is slightly inflated, since it
18:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> includes the pipeline involved in reading the cycle counter --
18:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> executing (TIME NIL) a few times will give you an idea of the
18:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> overhead, and its variance. The cycle counters are also per processor,
18:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> not per thread: if multiple threads are running on the same processor,
18:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> the reported counts will include cycles taken up by all threads
18:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> running on the processor where TIME was executed. Furthermore, if the
18:11:36 <AnMaster> ah
18:11:36 <CakeProphet> hahaha... I didn't know Google suggested Recursion when you type Recursion into it.
18:11:38 <Phantom_Hoover> operating system migrates the thread to another processor between
18:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> reads of the cycle counter, the results will be completely bogus.
18:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Finally, the counter is cycle counter, incremented by the hardware
18:11:44 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no need to paste it all
18:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> even when the process is halted -- which is to say that cycles pass
18:11:48 <Phantom_Hoover> normally during operations like SLEEP.
18:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Source file: SYS:SRC;CODE;TIME.LISP
18:11:53 <AnMaster> hm
18:11:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sorry.
18:12:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm not sure how you read cycle count on x86
18:13:07 <AnMaster> presumably it is possible
18:13:28 <AnMaster> oh the TSC
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18:16:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and yeah if it uses the TSC it would include cycles spent by other CPUs as well
18:16:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what did the program do btw?
18:16:24 <AnMaster> if this is "hello world" I would say that you have a LOT of overhead ;P
18:16:28 <AnMaster> or it moved between cpus
18:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a 3-layer feed-forward neural network.
18:17:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hello world takes 44,360 cycles.
18:17:48 <AnMaster> quite a lot. I wonder how many a C hello world would take, would have no gc overhead and such
18:17:54 <AnMaster> still some IO overhead
18:18:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what about 2+2 ;P
18:18:27 <Phantom_Hoover> 1480 cycles.
18:18:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, there's stdio to go through and such.
18:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, (time nil) takes 1720 cycles, so it's inaccurate for small values.
18:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> 2+2 is therefore incredibly quick.
18:19:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, as I said yes
18:19:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> still some IO overhead
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18:19:44 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Should be constant-folded, really.
18:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Why did you ping me?
18:19:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, because I did /ping p<tab> and got you instead of pikhq
18:20:24 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, (time nil) takes 1720 cycles, so it's inaccurate for small values. <-- sure that is inaccurate?
18:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq: 2+2? Like I said, it could take a cycle and it would report a couple of thousand cycles.
18:20:51 <AnMaster> btw, timing (+ 2 2) on my system gave me 3934 cycles
18:20:57 <AnMaster> sempron 3300+
18:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What implementation?
18:21:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sbcl REPL
18:21:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And nil isn't evaluated at all, so it's almost certainly inaccurate.
18:21:46 <AnMaster> (time nil):
18:21:47 <zzo38> There is another channel on here that was here yesterday, because they needed a new IRC server I suggested Freenode. It is #mzx for the mainstream MegaZeux. I recommend the forked MegaZeux, which has no official IRC channel, however. (But you can discuss the forked MegaZeux on that channel however, don't too much)
18:21:48 <AnMaster> 3,611 processor cycles
18:22:09 <zzo38> If I write an accounting software what should I called it?
18:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> And the description for time says outright that there's an overhead approximately that of (time nil)
18:23:29 <AnMaster> "RunProgram: Start execution of the program downloaded. A downloaded program can only be started if it contains the text "Do you byte, when I knock?", otherwise the executive refuse to run the program downloaded." <-- some aspects of the RCX ROM are bloody strange
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18:30:24 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I wonder if I could be a leet haxor
18:30:36 * CakeProphet writes naive C code and tries to inject code via stack overflow.
18:34:19 * Phantom_Hoover is happy
18:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The neural network code works for AND and OR.
18:35:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Now to try XOR.
18:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, I can't be bothered.
18:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Manually altering weights is unspeakably painful.
18:41:11 <pineapple> what are you doing?
18:52:31 <oerjan> weighing altered manuals
18:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> pineapple: Wasting time messing with neural nets.
18:58:47 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:59:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And for XOR I have to change the weights pretty much by hand, which takes too much typing.
19:02:41 -!- tombom has joined.
19:06:46 <Phantom_Hoover> tombom!
19:10:24 <AnMaster> <oerjan> weighing altered manuals <-- interesting, why?
19:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It was a facetious answer to pineapple's question to me.
19:11:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah. I imagine the extra weight from some added ink could be detected ;P
19:11:45 <AnMaster> would take an incredibly sensitive scale
19:11:59 <AnMaster> and require that the unaltered manuals had a very precise weight
19:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> A fascinating method for detecting cheats, but ultimately impractical.
19:12:04 <AnMaster> s/scale/scales/
19:12:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, exactly. But this is #esoteric, things doesn't have to be practical!
19:13:08 <tombom> hello what
19:13:19 <AnMaster> tombom, who's there?
19:14:26 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/gdMY
19:15:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does it do?
19:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Imperative → imperative via functional seems an odd choice.
19:15:57 <AnMaster> generate x86 asm I figured out
19:16:06 <AnMaster> ah probably bf
19:16:09 <AnMaster> so BF compiler then
19:16:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes.
19:16:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it's still quite nice.
19:16:30 <pikhq> I've found Haskell makes for delicious compilers.
19:16:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, nothing new. The best one before esotope-bfc was written in haskell
19:16:40 <AnMaster> compiled to C, not asm of course
19:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I think you meant Phantom_Hoover there.
19:17:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes. I'm aware of said compiler.
19:17:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, me? no
19:17:03 <AnMaster> oh
19:17:03 <AnMaster> wait
19:17:06 <AnMaster> I did
19:17:07 <AnMaster> maybe
19:17:13 * AnMaster is confused
19:17:13 <pikhq> I'm currently generating smaller output than esotope-bfc.
19:17:18 <AnMaster> right I meant Phantom_Hoover
19:17:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you compare
19:17:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, since esotope generates C code
19:17:47 <AnMaster> and you generate asm
19:17:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to xPhantom_Hoover.
19:17:55 <xPhantom_Hoover> AnMaster: There you go.
19:17:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, gcc produces bloated binaries
19:18:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Final binary, as generated with gcc -Os
19:18:04 <AnMaster> xPhantom_Hoover, hah ;P
19:18:10 <pikhq> I've also compared with clang -Os
19:18:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, tcc?
19:18:23 <pikhq> Not tried that.
19:18:38 <pikhq> Doesn't work well with my absurdly tiny libc.
19:18:47 <pikhq> (I want to be fair, okay?)
19:18:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, I would say that the comparison is unfair due to the different target languages
19:19:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, you linked that libc statically?
19:19:12 <AnMaster> why not link both dynamically
19:19:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Dynamic linking makes for larger binaries*.
19:19:35 <pikhq> Also, said libc literally included wrappers for system calls.
19:19:49 <pikhq> And was *concattenated* with the file.
19:20:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have seen cases of static linking being larger
19:20:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, that was against boost though iirc
19:20:09 <AnMaster> or something of similar size
19:20:09 <pikhq> Yes, but not in this case.
19:20:20 <pikhq> Where you only need read, write, and exit.
19:20:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, the comparison is not fair IMO
19:21:02 <pikhq> It's still currently about an order of magnitude slower than esotope-bfc, output-wise.
19:21:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, you should compare speed
19:21:09 <AnMaster> indeed
19:21:17 <pikhq> This has a lot to do with my lack of constant folding and loop handling.
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21:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> clog!
21:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, does this mean that the prior conversation was unlogged?
21:35:06 <ais523> presumably yes
21:35:19 <ais523> wb clog
21:37:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, presumably you have your own local logs however
21:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ...Probably.
21:38:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, no one will ever know about our terrorist plans
21:38:28 <oerjan> ...shit
21:39:28 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason I have an overwhelming urge to write "rjan the headless esolang runner".
21:39:48 <oerjan> ...what
21:40:40 <oerjan> i'm not headless. otoh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken
21:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Warren Zevon song.
21:42:29 <oerjan> "Roland is a Norwegian who becomes embroiled in the Congo Crisis of the late 1960s. He earns a reputation as the greatest Thompson gunner, a reputation that attracts the attention of the CIA."
21:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> See!
21:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I never knew that he was Norwegian.
21:44:06 <oerjan> how very unrealistic. oh wait http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_French_and_Tjostolv_Moland
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21:44:16 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
21:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> \o\
21:44:28 <myndzi> |
21:44:28 <myndzi> >\
21:44:58 <pineapple> ...
21:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover> /o\
21:45:13 <myndzi> |
21:45:13 <myndzi> |\
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21:45:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I will never tire of it.
21:45:28 <myndzi> ,_o__, ,__o_, ,_o__,
21:45:29 <myndzi> | | |
21:45:29 <myndzi> /`\ /| /<
21:46:03 <myndzi> response varies by channel, lol
21:46:09 <myndzi> some people ... tire of it very quickly :>
21:46:26 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:46:37 <pikhq> It doesn't come up much in here, so it doesn't get too annoying. :P
21:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> _o_
21:46:59 <myndzi> |
21:46:59 <myndzi> |\
21:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that ever going to be fixed?
21:48:36 <oerjan> fix what?
21:48:49 <AnMaster> no because his client doesn't right-align nicks
21:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
21:49:09 <AnMaster> myndzi, it is rather annoying to people not using clients that do left ragged text
21:49:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH.
21:49:21 <PH> \o/
21:49:32 <PH> /o/
21:49:47 <ais523> well, it has no hope of working for me, as I IRC in a proportional font
21:49:48 <AnMaster> myndzi, mine right aligns the nicks up to the separator, then left aligns the text to the separator on the other side
21:49:49 <ais523> (shocking I know)
21:49:57 <AnMaster> myndzi, so it looks really bad from here
21:49:59 <oerjan> ais523: heretic!
21:50:26 <AnMaster> ais523, okay, ehird. Nice try pretending to be ais523. But the game is over now.
21:50:32 -!- PH has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:50:47 <ais523> AnMaster: why would you expect ehird but not me to do that?
21:51:12 <AnMaster> ais523, should be quite obvious. He is a font manic.
21:51:23 <ais523> hmm, obviously he'll have ignored me based on that inference and won't hear this
21:51:26 <ais523> even though it's wrong
21:51:29 <pikhq> He is a bit of a typography nut.
21:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> A *bit*?
21:51:37 <AnMaster> heh
21:51:39 <AnMaster> ais523, nice try
21:51:56 <AnMaster> ais523, also /nickserv help output must look horrible to you
21:52:03 <AnMaster> since it space align two columns
21:52:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: In casual English usage, "a bit" can mean "quite exceptionally". Weird but true.
21:52:12 <ais523> nah, there's enough spaces to see the columns
21:53:50 <oerjan> this column is not big enough for the both of us
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21:54:24 <ais523> oerjan: I don't get the pun
21:54:33 <ais523> as in, I get the reference but not the non-pun context of the sentence
21:54:50 <oerjan> am i not allowed to do absurdist humor now
21:55:03 <ais523> you are, it just needs to be slightly easier to get than that
21:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a reference.
21:55:19 <Phantom_Hoover> QED.
21:55:21 <oerjan> but if it was easier to get it would be your mom
21:55:34 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't look aligned however
21:56:27 * AnMaster hits Phantom_Hoover with a stunned seagull reference
21:56:30 <AnMaster> now, get that one ;P
21:56:40 <AnMaster> and no helping him
21:56:42 * oerjan wasn't planning that punchline when he started the sentence
21:56:46 <AnMaster> (I know I used it before in this channel)
21:57:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, which punchline?
21:57:27 <oerjan> your mom
21:57:33 <AnMaster> oh hah
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22:18:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, test of prototype lego panoramic head, using the mobile phone (a lot easier to mount than my "real" camera: http://omploader.org/vNGgydw (note: progressive jpeg)
22:18:11 <AnMaster> and yes the image is quite grainy
22:18:37 <AnMaster> but the dual jpeg compression (once from camera, then once from converting the tiff hugin output)
22:18:40 <AnMaster> made it worse
22:22:15 * Phantom_Hoover finally got XOR working!
22:26:45 * pikhq_ xors you
22:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So much pain because of a logistic function...
22:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I have an object called *XORN*.
22:28:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It does not, however, walk through walls.
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22:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> _o_
22:31:11 <myndzi> |
22:31:11 <myndzi> /\
22:31:20 <Phantom_Hoover> _o_ _o_ _o_
22:31:21 <myndzi> | | |
22:31:21 <myndzi> /`\ >\ >\
22:32:03 <AnMaster> hah the last one was aligned for me
22:32:19 <AnMaster> the last one to the first one I mean in the line "<Phantom_Hoover> _o_ _o_ _o_"
22:32:32 <AnMaster> also myndzi's script is broken now
22:32:39 <AnMaster> since it didn't add anything under my line
22:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume you're on XChat too, then?
22:32:44 <AnMaster> _o_
22:32:44 <myndzi> |
22:32:44 <myndzi> /|
22:32:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ERC
22:33:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there anything Emacs can't do?
22:33:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Hold on...
22:33:16 <AnMaster> myndzi, do you have very very short line length or why wasn't anything added to "<AnMaster> the last one to the first one I mean in the line "<Phantom_Hoover> _o_ _o_ _o_"" ?
22:33:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, um yes. It can't synthesise for FPGAs
22:33:41 <AnMaster> afaik
22:34:09 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAYK.
22:34:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: well it wrapped in irssi (80 chars)
22:34:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also it is event based and single threaded, doesn't do any sort of cooperative or preemptive multitasking
22:34:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, 80 chars only?
22:34:29 <AnMaster> it only went like 2/3 of my screen
22:34:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: that is sort of the old standard
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22:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover`> ERC is UGLY.
22:36:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, But no one uses that any more
22:36:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:36:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover`, ugly? Next time you will call twm ugly or something equally silly!
22:36:51 <Phantom_Hoover> TWM is cool.
22:37:04 <pikhq_> AnMaster: TWM is only ugly by default.
22:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover`> Especially on a Mac.
22:37:14 <pikhq_> With some color changes it seems much less so.
22:37:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover`, XD
22:37:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: i like to have room for irc + another small window side by side
22:37:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover` has quit (Client Quit).
22:37:33 <pikhq_> Though it's still only barely *usable*, it's still not bad for 30-year-old software.
22:37:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, same, I have browser and irc client side by side
22:37:38 <oerjan> and i also like a big font
22:37:40 <AnMaster> and terminal below both
22:37:45 <AnMaster> well
22:37:49 <AnMaster> different terminal that is
22:37:53 <AnMaster> I don't run emacs in X mode
22:37:54 <oerjan> and a small monitor
22:37:55 <AnMaster> *shudder*
22:37:56 <pikhq_> I've got my terminal open full-screen.
22:38:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover`, anyway, I use heavily customised ERC settings
22:38:10 <AnMaster> the default alignment is wtf
22:38:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It is immaterial.
22:38:16 <oerjan> (um well i don't _like_ a small monitor as such, i have one, this is a laptop)
22:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Because of you people, I have forgotten what I was doing.
22:38:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh well on my laptop I wouldn't use a setup like this
22:38:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: something ERC
22:38:47 <AnMaster> anyway I want to get a dual head setup next time for my desktop
22:39:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, was that a pun?
22:39:05 <AnMaster> it was very bad in that case
22:40:41 <oerjan> no
22:41:09 <oerjan> just the top Phantom_Hoover message on my screen
22:41:20 <oerjan> or so
22:41:52 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> _o_
22:41:52 <myndzi> |
22:41:52 <myndzi> /|
22:41:55 <AnMaster> is the top one for me
22:41:57 <AnMaster> or was rather
22:42:04 <AnMaster> now <myndzi> /`\ >\ >\ is the top one
22:42:15 <AnMaster> (and after I said this line, two lines below it)
22:42:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, ^ (3 lines below it now)
22:42:37 <oerjan> you people and your tiny fonts and huge monitors
22:42:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, you have a short scrollback
22:42:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: my scrollback is fine, i'm talking about actual visible text
22:43:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, tiny? it is "Dejavu Sans Mono 9"
22:43:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I meant visible scrollback without scrolling indeed ;P
22:43:57 <oerjan> Courier New, 10 point it says
22:44:35 <oerjan> 46 rows and 80 columns
22:45:48 <AnMaster> unsure about dimensions
22:53:22 * Phantom_Hoover is scared of curve integrals.
22:53:59 <oerjan> BOO!
22:54:14 * oerjan knew those once
22:54:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea what they even do.
22:54:56 <oerjan> well for one thing you can calculate lengths of curves with them iirc
22:54:59 * pikhq_ shudders
22:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I am scared of all mathematical things I don't understand.
22:57:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just one of those things.
22:58:29 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral.
22:59:11 <Phantom_Hoover> As soon as you explain them I won't be scared. As it was with sigmas.
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23:23:06 <AnMaster> <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral. <-- s/more/even more/
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23:25:39 <AnMaster> idea: befunge with branch delay slots
23:25:44 <AnMaster> as a fingerprint perhaps
23:25:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think?
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23:29:49 <maedhros777> What exactly is Turing-completeness?
23:31:01 <AnMaster> maedhros777, something that is equivalent to an Universal Turing Machine
23:31:03 <pikhq_> Turing-completeness means, in a very technical sense, being computationally equivalent to a Turing machine.
23:31:09 <pikhq_> Erm. A Universal ...
23:31:14 <maedhros777> What's a Turing machine?
23:31:22 <pikhq_> In a more practical sense, it means that it can compute anything that can be computed.
23:31:28 <maedhros777> Sweet
23:31:41 <maedhros777> I was wondering because it was a category on the Wiki
23:31:47 <oerjan> universal, or all. the very definition of a universal turing machine is that it can itself emulate all the others
23:31:54 <maedhros777> How do you prove that something is Turing-complete?
23:32:22 <oerjan> maedhros777: by emulating something already known to be TC with it
23:32:48 <maedhros777> But how do you know that the original thing is Turing-complete?
23:32:57 <maedhros777> I think BF is used like that
23:33:03 <oerjan> (technically you should also prove that the something can be emulated by something TC)
23:33:10 <maedhros777> So how do you prove that BF is Turing-complete?
23:33:25 <oerjan> maedhros777: the buck stops at turing machines
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23:33:36 <maedhros777> :)
23:33:38 <oerjan> all the others must emulate those, directly or indirectly
23:33:45 <pikhq_> oerjan: Wasn't there a proof that Turing machines can compute anything, though?
23:34:15 <oerjan> pikhq_: that's the church-turing thesis and it isn't a proof, but a hypothesis
23:34:28 <pikhq_> Oh, okay then.
23:35:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyone tried to prove it?
23:35:05 <pikhq_> So it's hypothetically possible that there is something that's both computable and not computable on a UTM.
23:35:25 <maedhros777> What is the exact definition of a Turing machine, then?
23:36:29 <oerjan> yes, but it would take a very unusual way of computing, that no one so far knows about
23:36:36 <pikhq_> Yes.
23:37:06 <oerjan> maedhros777: you have a tape, which is conceptually infinite, or at least can be extended as much as you like in at least one direction
23:37:33 <maedhros777> Are there instructions on the tape or something?
23:38:02 <oerjan> no, data, in some alphabet (which is more or less arbitrary - anything with at least 2 letters can emulate each other)
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23:38:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't forget the state of the heat
23:38:29 <AnMaster> head*
23:38:38 <AnMaster> which moves over the tape iirc
23:38:43 <maedhros777> So it's a theoretical machine in which a command is given by an infinite number of intructions?
23:38:47 <AnMaster> or was it the tape moving under the head
23:38:52 <AnMaster> maedhros777, no
23:38:53 <oerjan> maedhros777: no
23:38:59 <AnMaster> maedhros777, it is data, not instructions
23:39:08 <AnMaster> but oerjan is a slow typer
23:39:13 <AnMaster> and I don't remember the exact details
23:39:16 <oerjan> *sheesh*
23:39:28 <oerjan> well _one_ of us should shut up
23:39:30 <AnMaster> ;P
23:39:32 <maedhros777> How does the machine work if all it contains is data?
23:39:49 <oerjan> maedhros777: that's the tape. the machine also has a head, which moves along the tape
23:39:55 <AnMaster> maedhros777, please wait for oerjan to finish typing that. It will take a bit
23:40:10 <maedhros777> Like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Maquina.png
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23:40:25 <oerjan> that head is governed by instructions, in the form of a lookup table
23:40:53 <oerjan> maedhros777: something like that
23:41:07 <oerjan> the head has a state, from a finite set of states
23:41:22 <AnMaster> <maedhros777> Like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Maquina.png <-- what is that supposed to be?
23:41:29 <maedhros777> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine#Formal_definition
23:41:40 <oerjan> and the lookup table says, given the state of the head, and the symbol on the tape in the current position:
23:41:41 <AnMaster> oh it is supposed to be a turing machine?
23:41:46 <maedhros777> Yep :)
23:42:04 <AnMaster> maedhros777, looked more like a sci-fi filing system gone spare
23:42:09 <maedhros777> =D
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23:42:27 <oerjan> maedhros777: well ok that's the mathematical definition, i'm going for a little more intuitive explanation here
23:42:30 <maedhros777> So where does the notion that a Turing machine can compute anything come from?
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23:42:48 <pikhq_> Turing said so.
23:42:53 <pikhq_> Church also said so.
23:43:07 <maedhros777> Did they have proof?
23:43:13 <pikhq_> (well, Church said that lambda calculus can. And lambda calculus and a UTM are equivalent)
23:43:19 <AnMaster> maedhros777, no, it is a conjecture, and no one found a counter example yet
23:43:26 <maedhros777> Ok, then
23:43:37 <maedhros777> I guess it would be pretty hard to disprove
23:43:41 <maedhros777> So it's probably right
23:43:42 <pikhq_> maedhros777: Most people just use the UTM as the definition of computability. :)
23:44:11 <maedhros777> How could a language not be Turing-complete?
23:44:14 <oerjan> maedhros777: also it's not that it can compute _everything_, but that it can compute everything that we have a physically plausible way of computing at all
23:44:27 <pikhq_> maedhros777: Trivially.
23:44:38 <maedhros777> Could you give an example please?
23:44:42 <pikhq_> Not having things like conditionals, having finite memory,
23:44:49 <pikhq_> maedhros777: Brainfuck without loops.
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23:44:59 <oerjan> maedhros777: finite memory is a big hint
23:45:22 <maedhros777> Why wouldn't it be Turing-complete if it didn't have loops?
23:45:41 <pikhq_> Because then it couldn't do anything conditionally ever.
23:45:58 <maedhros777> I guess
23:46:17 <pikhq_> Which is necessary to implement a Turing machine.
23:46:28 <maedhros777> I've been wondering though, how are conditional expressions actually implemented?
23:46:34 <maedhros777> Like in binary.
23:46:39 <pikhq_> In what language?
23:46:48 <pikhq_> "binary" is not a language.
23:46:53 <maedhros777> C to assembly to binary, e.g.
23:47:06 <maedhros777> I mean like assembly or machine-dependent binary
23:47:07 <pikhq_> Well, it is in a formal sense, but that's beside the point.
23:47:18 <pikhq_> maedhros777: So, C to $machine assembly to $machine binary
23:47:26 <maedhros777> Yep
23:47:32 <pikhq_> Depends on the machine, but it's most *commonly* a conditional jump.
23:47:47 <oerjan> maedhros777: another way of showing it is through the famous halting problem. a turing machine cannot decide whether another turing machine (encoded as data) will halt, turing proved this. so if a turing machine _can_ decide whether your computational model halts, then your model cannot be turing complete, essentially
23:47:57 <pikhq_> For instance, x86 has "je foo", where it jumps to foo if the previous comparison was true.
23:48:16 <AnMaster> pikhq_, also cmov
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23:48:27 <pikhq_> AnMaster: Ah, yes, it does have that.
23:48:45 <pikhq_> And, obviously, if you have no loops, your computational model always halts.
23:48:47 <AnMaster> also various other conditional jumps
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23:48:52 <AnMaster> like jne iirc
23:48:54 <AnMaster> and what not
23:49:01 <pikhq_> AnMaster: That was just an example of a conditional jump.
23:49:05 <AnMaster> yep
23:49:15 <pikhq_> x86, being x86, is loaded with them.
23:49:19 <pikhq_> And everything else.
23:49:24 <pikhq_> Except for registers.
23:49:25 <AnMaster> pikhq_, not registers though
23:49:26 <AnMaster> yeah
23:49:31 <AnMaster> you beat me to it
23:49:46 <maedhros777> How would you, in general, prove that something is Turing-complete then?
23:49:59 <maedhros777> Only I can see would be by conjecture
23:50:05 <AnMaster> maedhros777, by implementing something known to be turing-complete in it.
23:50:28 <AnMaster> maedhros777, no, turing completeness isn't a conjecture. What is a conjecture is that there is nothing beyond it that is computable
23:50:34 <pikhq_> maedhros777: You demonstrate that it's computationally equivalent to something that is Turing-complete.
23:50:50 <maedhros777> But that's endlessly recursive -- how would you prove that the thing that you're basing the Turing-completeness off of to be Turing-complete?
23:50:53 <AnMaster> maedhros777, sure you can make up stuff beyond it, but it will be impossible to implement it, well that is the conjecture
23:51:06 <pikhq_> This can be done by *implementing* something that is Turing-complete and implementing in something that *is* Turing-complete.
23:51:22 <AnMaster> maedhros777, it all falls back on the UTM at the base. The conjecture is that the UTM is as far as you can go
23:51:31 <maedhros777> I guess
23:51:35 <oerjan> maedhros777: in _principle_ you prove something turing-complete by showing that you can implement all turing machines with it
23:51:37 <pikhq_> maedhros777: If nothing else, you can show equivalence with the UTM.
23:51:42 <AnMaster> maedhros777, so there is a base case the recursion of proving it equivalent to an UTM
23:51:55 <maedhros777> How would it be shown that BF is computationally equivalent to the UTM?
23:51:58 <AnMaster> it is just that we don't know for sure if there is anything beyond it
23:51:59 <pikhq_> As Turing-completeness means "equivalent to a UTM"
23:52:01 <oerjan> but in _practice_, you may use any of the other models that have already been proved to be able to do so
23:52:29 <AnMaster> maedhros777, implement an UTM in it. Or lambda calculus or anything else that wasn't proven TC by using brainfuck
23:52:41 <oerjan> (the UTM itself being one of the first such simpler models)
23:53:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait what?
23:53:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, elaborate
23:53:38 <pikhq_> AnMaster: The Universal Turing Machine is the Turing machine capable of implementing all other Turing machines.
23:53:46 <AnMaster> pikhq_, oh right
23:53:55 <oerjan> yeah
23:54:00 <pikhq_> maedhros777: BF-without-IO is equivalent to P'' with a simple isomorphism. (I don't recall what this is, but that's irrelevant for discussion) And P'', in some old paper, was shown to be equivalent to a UTM.
23:54:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, you need to increase your typing speed ;P
23:54:21 <maedhros777> Hm, let me check the wiki to see how it's Turing-complete
23:54:27 <pikhq_> (this paper is most notable for being the first to show a structured programming language as being Turing-complete)
23:54:34 <maedhros777> Ooh, good: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class
23:54:39 <AnMaster> maedhros777, pikhq_ just told you
23:54:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: that would make my hands hurt unreasonably much, i'm afraid
23:55:13 <oerjan> also who says i'm _thinking_ any faster :D
23:55:36 <pikhq_> (I shall note that, as IO capabilities have nothing to do with computability, any language-without-IO is *computationally* equivalent to the same language *with* IO)
23:55:39 <oerjan> also i _read_ slowly, too
23:55:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, ;O
23:55:47 <AnMaster> ;P*
23:56:10 <AnMaster> yep, that is one thing that can be confusing at first
23:56:30 <AnMaster> didn't someone invent "bf-complete" for describing "TC + byte STDIO"?
23:56:34 <oerjan> pikhq_: well that's a _bit_ simplified, you need some way to get initial data and give final data, even if you don't call it IO
23:56:40 <pikhq_> AnMaster: Probably.
23:56:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: something like that
23:56:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, appended at the end of the program is popular iirc?
23:58:00 <pikhq_> Esolangs tend to be BF-complete. What with stdio being the easiest kind to do, and making it so that it's at least *somewhat* useful.
23:58:19 <AnMaster> yep
23:58:26 <maedhros777> Are most commonly used languages Turing-complete?
23:58:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: that assumes there is a concept of adding things to the end of the program
23:58:48 <pikhq_> maedhros777: Yes.
23:58:52 <oerjan> maedhros777: if you ignore the thorny issue of finite memory, yes
23:58:55 <AnMaster> maedhros777, C is not. since it can not have infinite memory due to the spec requiring sizeof(void*) being finite
23:59:03 <maedhros777> True
23:59:13 <pikhq_> C++, amusingly, *is* Turing complete.
23:59:15 <AnMaster> maedhros777, and it also requires all objects to be addressable
23:59:24 <maedhros777> How is C++ actually Turing-complete?
23:59:26 <AnMaster> pikhq_, oh only through templates iirc?
23:59:31 <pikhq_> AnMaster: Yes.
23:59:33 <maedhros777> Oh
23:59:37 <AnMaster> maedhros777, because iirc C++ *templates* are TC at compile time
23:59:41 <pikhq_> maedhros777: C++'s template system is equivalent to the lambda calculus.
23:59:46 <AnMaster> maedhros777, I seen factorial in C++ templates
23:59:52 <maedhros777> I hadn't thought of that
23:59:53 <AnMaster> no one said it was sane
00:00:06 <pikhq_> It's a complete accident that this is so, in fact.
00:00:07 <oerjan> maedhros777: btw possibly the simplest TC model on the wiki is BCT, it's almost ridiculously simple
00:00:34 <AnMaster> pikhq_, saying it is "equivalent to the lambda calculus" would also mean it is equivalent to bf
00:00:39 <AnMaster> well wait
00:00:41 <AnMaster> no byte IO
00:00:42 <AnMaster> so no
00:00:48 <oerjan> if you find brainfuck too hard to implement, that's a good alternative candidate
00:00:48 <AnMaster> but equivalent to P''
00:00:49 <AnMaster> at least
00:00:56 <oerjan> also combinatory logic
00:01:06 <pikhq_> AnMaster: It's equivalent to the lambda calculus with a trivial isomorphism.
00:01:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the 2,3 thingy ais523 proved TC by using BCT?
00:01:25 <AnMaster> isn't it very simple too?
00:01:33 <AnMaster> pikhq_, ah
00:01:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes but that has the _extremely_ thorny issue of infinite setup and no halting concept
00:01:49 <AnMaster> pikhq_, what makes an isomorphism trivial btw?
00:01:59 <pikhq_> AnMaster: About on par with sed.
00:02:02 <oerjan> which makes it very hard to use for esolangs, i think
00:02:04 <pikhq_> Oh, wait.
00:02:08 <ais523> AnMaster: BCT is simpler
00:02:08 <pikhq_> Sed is TC. Never mind.
00:02:09 <pikhq_> :P
00:02:10 <ais523> that's why I used it
00:02:14 <ais523> well, cyclic tag in general
00:02:17 <ais523> BCT's just a notation for it
00:02:24 <pikhq_> AnMaster: A bunch of s/// statements manage the compilation.
00:02:41 <AnMaster> pikhq_, as the general intelligence increase (but not IQ!), wouldn't the level of "trivial" change?
00:02:58 <pikhq_> That's not what trivial means. :)
00:02:59 <AnMaster> say, 20 million years from now
00:03:07 <AnMaster> other things would be considered trivial
00:03:25 <oerjan> pikhq_: /// statements are TC too ;D
00:03:40 <pikhq_> oerjan: *Gah* string rewriting. Right.
00:03:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, not sed s/// I think
00:03:48 <AnMaster> since it isn't recursive
00:03:50 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:03:50 <AnMaster> like /// is
00:03:59 <oerjan> possibly
00:04:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, didn't you prove /// TC using BCT?
00:04:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes
00:04:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, also, how was BCT proved TC?
00:04:29 <pikhq_> Hmm. String rewriting makes it so that Tcl is Turing-complete even without any commands defined.
00:04:32 <pikhq_> How amusing.
00:04:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't recall
00:04:42 <AnMaster> pikhq_, really? heh
00:05:25 <AnMaster> pikhq_, write a formal proof of it
00:05:31 <pikhq_> Never!
00:05:35 <AnMaster> ais523, is INTERCAL TC?
00:05:37 <AnMaster> pikhq_, oh?
00:05:49 <pikhq_> I don't want to wrangle the dodecalogue into TC-ness. :(
00:05:54 <ais523> AnMaster: easily
00:05:56 <AnMaster> pikhq_, the what?
00:06:02 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't it have limited state?
00:06:10 <pikhq_> The 12 rules that describe all of Tcl's syntax and semantics.
00:06:13 <ais523> no, it has loads of unbounded stack
00:06:15 <ais523> *stacks
00:06:18 <ais523> and you only need 2
00:06:19 <AnMaster> pikhq_, meh
00:06:25 <pikhq_> (aside from the normally-provided commands)
00:06:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: each variable has a RESTORE [iirc] stack
00:06:34 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, but what about INTERCAL-72?
00:06:56 <ais523> even INTERCAL-72
00:06:59 <ais523> oerjan: you mean STASH stack
00:06:59 <AnMaster> ah I see
00:07:05 <oerjan> ais523: right
00:07:11 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
00:07:12 <ais523> STASH/RETRIEVE
00:07:16 <ais523> normally just called "a stash"
00:07:31 <AnMaster> ais523, btw alise wrote what was probably a J/INTERCAL polygot recently
00:07:48 <ais523> wow, what a random language combo
00:07:52 <AnMaster> ais523, should check logs to see if it works from the intercal side
00:08:09 <AnMaster> ais523, no it wasn't. It was that J comments are: NB.
00:08:16 <AnMaster> that is NB period, not just NB
00:08:20 <ais523> I mean, thinking of that combo
00:08:31 <AnMaster> ais523, and I commented on "DO NOT NOTA BENE" or such
00:08:32 <ais523> you'd have to start DO or PLEASE to stop the INTERCAL erroring out immediately, though
00:08:33 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:08:36 <AnMaster> and one thing led to another
00:09:02 <ais523> ah
00:09:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yes the first line defines DO NOT to be a NOP from the J side iirc
00:09:29 <AnMaster> ais523, and then you basically do: DO NOT NB. PLEASE intercal code
00:09:38 <AnMaster> ais523, or similar
00:10:03 * oerjan kept nagging about NB. PLEASE intercal DO NOT being simpler
00:10:11 <AnMaster> ais523, and DO NOT <real j code> NB. PLEASE ... of course
00:10:12 * pikhq_ wishes you could just do "DO NOT PLEASE" and screw up the politeness
00:10:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, but that doesn't work?
00:10:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: it should
00:10:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, how is NB. hidden from INTERCAL?
00:10:59 <oerjan> but somehow alise thought it ugly
00:11:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: by the DO NOT at the end of the previous line
00:11:14 <ais523> AnMaster: by the DO NOT on the previous line
00:11:31 <AnMaster> ah
00:11:32 <AnMaster> right
00:11:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't work for first line though
00:12:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: indeed but it starts DO NOT anyway, so it just needs to be a J almost-nop
00:12:26 <AnMaster> right
00:12:41 <AnMaster> also mouse pointer went spare for a bit
00:12:59 <AnMaster> shuddering in a circle of about 10 pixels
00:13:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: probably an LHC black hole passing by
00:13:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, XD
00:13:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, it happened a few times before LHC anyway
00:13:58 <AnMaster> but yeah time travel involved clearly
00:14:12 <maedhros777> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_prime_prime
00:14:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway, I think it is due to some resolution issue on the surface
00:14:16 <maedhros777> How does r ≡ λR work?
00:14:20 <oerjan> sure, everyone knows the LHC particles time travel
00:14:28 <maedhros777> In relation to BF
00:15:00 <AnMaster> eh?
00:15:07 <maedhros777> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_prime_prime#Relation_to_other_programming_languages
00:15:28 <AnMaster> hm
00:16:08 <maedhros777> Wouldn't that just set the tape cell to the cell at its right?
00:16:31 <AnMaster> I don't know P'', so couldn't say
00:16:44 <oerjan> maedhros777: r is equivalent to +
00:16:59 <AnMaster> "# R means move the tape-head rightward one cell (if any).
00:16:59 <AnMaster> # λ means replace the current symbol ai by ai+1 (taking an+1 = a0), and then move the tape-head leftward one cell."
00:17:11 <maedhros777> But how would it work?
00:17:24 <AnMaster> maedhros777, that looks like it does >+<
00:17:30 <maedhros777> Yeah
00:17:34 <maedhros777> That's what I thought
00:17:41 <maedhros777> Oh :)
00:17:43 <AnMaster> maedhros777, so do <>+<
00:17:43 <oerjan> no, +<>
00:17:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right
00:18:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm so bf is an optimisation kind of XD
00:18:33 <AnMaster> I could never have thought bf was optimised compared to anything
00:19:04 <maedhros777> Wouldn't it be >[-<+>]> or something?
00:19:14 <maedhros777> Disregarding that the next cell would become 0
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00:19:39 <AnMaster> hm?
00:19:40 <oerjan> maedhros777: huh?
00:19:43 <AnMaster> maedhros777, no oerjan is right
00:20:03 <maedhros777> Wait...is ai+1 to the right or left?
00:20:19 <oerjan> maedhros777: it's the _value_ not the position
00:20:20 <AnMaster> maedhros777, no ai + is current value incremented
00:20:32 <AnMaster> s/+ //
00:21:01 <AnMaster> s/incremented//
00:21:03 <maedhros777> oerjan: But then you're just copying the value of the cell to the right to the current value, right?
00:21:11 <AnMaster> maedhros777, nop, to same
00:21:21 <maedhros777> ?
00:21:23 <oerjan> maedhros777: no, it's an increment at the current spot
00:21:29 <maedhros777> OHH
00:21:32 <maedhros777> I get it now :)
00:21:34 <AnMaster> maedhros777, to move is *after*
00:21:36 <AnMaster> the*
00:22:01 <maedhros777> Why is it ai+1 instead of (ai) + 1?
00:22:01 <AnMaster> yes it is a stupid instruction set in part :)
00:22:16 <AnMaster> maedhros777, why would you need to put out () there?
00:22:26 <coppro> because multiplication binds tighter than addition?
00:22:31 <oerjan> maedhros777: for some reason the symbols are called a_i rather than simply the number i
00:22:31 <maedhros777> Because isn't ai+1 the next cell?
00:23:20 <maedhros777> That's a weird notation
00:23:22 <oerjan> a_0 corresponds to the BF cell value 0, and says nothing about where it is
00:23:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait it is a_{i+1} as written on wikipedia
00:23:39 <AnMaster> which is somewhat strange
00:24:12 <oerjan> maedhros777: i suppose it's to make it mathematically general by not saying _what_ symbols you use, just their order
00:24:24 <maedhros777> Ok
00:24:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, see what I said, error on wikipedia?
00:24:32 <oerjan> link?
00:24:37 <maedhros777> So would r` work by wrapping?
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00:24:43 <oerjan> oh wait
00:24:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_prime_prime section " Semantics"
00:24:57 <maedhros777> Oops, I meant r' not r`
00:25:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: the i+1 is an _index_. (a_i)_{i=0}^n is the sequence of symbols in the alphabet
00:26:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes and it being i+1 as an index makes no sense
00:26:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh wait
00:26:27 <AnMaster> rihht
00:26:29 <AnMaster> right*
00:26:34 <AnMaster> it is in the alphabet
00:26:35 <AnMaster> I see
00:26:40 <maedhros777> Anyone know where the proof of P'' being Turing-complete is?
00:26:46 <maedhros777> I don't see it
00:26:56 <AnMaster> 1. ^ Böhm, C.: "On a family of Turing machines and the related programming language", ICC Bull. 3, 185-194, July 1964.
00:26:56 <AnMaster> 2. ^ Böhm, C. and Jacopini, G.: "Flow diagrams, Turing machines and languages with only two formation rules", CACM 9(5), 1966. (Note: This is the most-cited paper on the structured program theorem.)
00:27:02 <AnMaster> maedhros777, in one of those I presume
00:27:09 <maedhros777> I don't have those books, though :)
00:27:13 <AnMaster> maedhros777, nor do I
00:27:18 <maedhros777> Or are they essays?
00:27:31 <AnMaster> maedhros777, more likely articles than essays
00:27:37 <maedhros777> Yeah, probably
00:27:45 <maedhros777> I'm gonna google them
00:27:50 <AnMaster> maedhros777, good luck
00:28:09 <AnMaster> maedhros777, anyway, there is an UTM implemented directly in bf listed on the bf page on the esolang wiki
00:28:16 <AnMaster> alternative proof
00:28:23 <maedhros777> Ok, I'll take a look
00:29:15 <maedhros777> Got it: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jsfWzj9RLwAJ:citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.,+Turing+machines+and+languages+with+only+two+formation+rules&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgh-bW5YldU2et4NaS9D0lJItEyRaiYO2N5lNEBi9jrYGjSm2xWqsjO48SCwjSFCQ52xGIp2ECu4jibe1UUwtPfd_DM_8XifhqQF4gLyrA58n62qOCiHwEHf963QyoVTFqjKCHS&sig=AHIEtbQNMV_kqHzz6ouESSojX5BgCg6aPg
00:29:20 <maedhros777> Big URL :)
00:29:35 <oerjan> maedhros777: there seem to be no copies on Böhm's home page, so ... oh citeseer
00:29:39 <maedhros777> Lots of lambda calculus though
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00:29:59 <maedhros777> Maybe I'll just look at the BF UTM implementation
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00:30:23 <oerjan> maedhros777: BF is P'' prettified anyhow
00:31:11 <oerjan> i might even suspect Böhm constructed something more like BF first, and then made P'' by minimizing the symbols
00:31:31 <maedhros777> Maybe
00:31:37 <oerjan> (well wikipedia almost implies as much)
00:32:58 <oerjan> maedhros777: also yeah r' wraps
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00:34:02 <maedhros777> oerjan: Ok thanks
00:35:09 <maedhros777> Seems kind of interesting to me that the same wiki having languages like LOLCODE also has such intellectual articles on Turing-completeness :)
00:36:12 <maedhros777> "Can haz stdio"? Classic. :)
00:36:41 <oerjan> maedhros777: you may note that boolfuck shows you don't even need more than two values 0 and 1 for TC, which means increment and decrement are the same operation
00:37:04 <oerjan> also some people here like to hate LOLCODE. just saying. ;D
00:37:23 <maedhros777> oerjan: It's the greatest language ever :)
00:37:29 <maedhros777> Besides BF, of course.
00:37:46 <maedhros777> I should make a real-time multiplayer FPS in BF. =D
00:38:47 <oerjan> you might have _certain_ I/O problems.
00:38:51 <pikhq_> maedhros777: Requires extensions.
00:38:58 <pikhq_> At the very least something akin to PSOX.
00:39:15 <maedhros777> You know I wasn't actually taking it seriously :)
00:39:31 <maedhros777> But I could just do it in command prompt.
00:39:36 <maedhros777> Without multiplayer, of course.
00:39:52 <oerjan> maedhros777: well someone _did_ make an adventure game already...
00:39:58 <maedhros777> Really?
00:40:00 <maedhros777> Where?
00:40:02 <oerjan> (although not directly in BF, i think)
00:40:07 <maedhros777> Darn
00:40:18 <oerjan> it's called lostkng
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00:40:36 <maedhros777> I can't find it on google
00:40:42 <oerjan> it was compiled from BASIC, i think
00:41:20 <maedhros777> Well, got to go now
00:41:22 <maedhros777> Bye
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00:41:44 <oerjan> oops
00:42:43 <oerjan> http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html
00:44:06 <pikhq_> <3 LostKng.
00:44:18 <pikhq_> Such a good test of compiler speed.
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03:51:25 <pikhq> My ISP is not run by humans.
03:51:32 <pikhq> It is run by people who HATE ALL THAT IS GOOD
03:51:42 <pikhq> Nay, not people. XD
03:51:50 <pikhq> By BEINGS who HATE ALL THAT IS GOOD
03:52:40 <coppro> who's your ISP again?
03:52:52 <Sgeo_> Some sattelite thing
03:53:49 <pikhq> WildBlue.
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05:49:11 <jabb> !!!
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08:07:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But oerjan isn't here. Who's swatting?
08:09:00 <lament> probably SWAT
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10:11:26 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> But oerjan isn't here. Who's swatting?
10:11:40 <oerjan> i think he's doing it preemptively these days.
10:12:13 <oerjan> (FireFly)
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10:30:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi oerjan/
10:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Does AnMaster ever actually leave the channel?
10:31:46 <oerjan> ...i don't recall
10:35:59 * Phantom_Hoover has no idea what to do now.
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10:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
10:51:20 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: good point. but does /etc/ bashrc... or cygwin. or vmware. or just listen to too mainstream music)
10:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style Lovecraft
10:51:33 <fungot> Not found.
10:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
10:51:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
10:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style discworld
10:51:49 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
10:51:51 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
10:51:53 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ' they have some questions to ask you a question, just like anything else; sometimes wizards were thin and gaunt and talked to her in any way will explain his conduct to the inquisitors. at length.
10:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> This is the coolest thing ever.
10:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style irc*
10:52:29 <fungot> Not found.
10:52:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style irc
10:52:32 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
10:52:37 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
10:52:38 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: yeah... most bots simply parse everything on the webpage i just get back ( 3 1/ 2
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11:54:52 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Does AnMaster ever actually leave the channel? <-- in case of thunderstorms yes
11:54:54 <AnMaster> only then
11:55:15 <AnMaster> also atm I'm trying to write my own number->hex formatting routine
11:55:31 <AnMaster> justification for not using printf: don't have it, embedded
11:55:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It takes a *thunderstorm* to get you off the channel?
11:55:49 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Just copy printf's code?
11:55:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, to get the bouncer on my system off the channel
11:56:02 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not enough space for the code
11:56:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, plus then I would need to format ASCII to display segments
11:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean the hex-printing bit.
11:56:17 <AnMaster> I'm going straight to the segments here
11:56:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, fair point.
11:56:29 <AnMaster> digits[0] = raw_value & 0x000f;
11:56:29 <AnMaster> digits[0] = raw_value & 0x00f0;
11:56:29 <AnMaster> digits[0] = raw_value & 0x0f00;
11:56:29 <AnMaster> digits[0] = raw_value & 0xf000;
11:56:34 <AnMaster> nice eh?
11:56:42 <AnMaster> wait
11:56:45 * AnMaster fixes indexes
11:56:49 <AnMaster> from copy and paste
11:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Aargh, low-level output!
11:56:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what?
11:57:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, this is not the monitor yet
11:57:16 <AnMaster> err
11:57:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't understand it, so it scared me.
11:57:18 <AnMaster> display
11:57:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it isn't output
11:57:28 <AnMaster> it is code I wrote
11:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
11:57:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, by bitwise and I mask out each digit
11:57:41 <Phantom_Hoover> What is digits?
11:57:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, I get it.
11:57:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, an array to hold one digit per byte
11:58:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Shouldn't the indices be different?
11:58:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, "<AnMaster> wait
11:58:10 <AnMaster> * AnMaster fixes indexes
11:58:10 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> from copy and paste"
11:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops
11:58:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't yet compiled it anyway
11:59:45 <AnMaster> wait *removes that array, wastes memory*
12:00:07 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it being displayed on?
12:00:09 <AnMaster> okay fun, I think it is displaying in reverse
12:00:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the RCX
12:00:20 <AnMaster> let me find you a picture of the display
12:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> This is all for your camera, right?
12:00:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes I need to check the range of the light sensor
12:01:05 <AnMaster> so I can figure out what sort of values to use when programming it
12:01:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, 4x digits in front of the walking person icon http://www.legolab.daimi.au.dk/CSaEA/RCX/Manual.dir/Buttons.dir/rcx_buttons.gif
12:01:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is 7-segment iirc
12:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> How much memory do you have on that?
12:02:31 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, total address space is 2^16. a lot of it is rom or memory mapped registers, or just not mapped to anything
12:02:35 <AnMaster> so not completely sure
12:02:42 <AnMaster> let me check the CPU docs
12:03:30 <AnMaster> well lets see, the memory controller is in mode 2, so that means the middle column of the diagram applies
12:04:17 <AnMaster> what a shitty resolution
12:04:31 <AnMaster> they put a bad jpeg in the pdf for this edition
12:04:39 <AnMaster> for another variant from the same series they use vector graphics
12:04:39 <AnMaster> ...
12:07:50 <AnMaster> H0000-H0049 is interrupt vector table then 16384 bytes for the on chip PROM, can't do anything about that, then some reserved stuff... Then from H8000-HFB7F, external bus, then some reserved, then on-chip ram HFD80-HFF7F, then external bus at HFF80-HFF87, then HFF88-HFFFF is on-chip register field
12:08:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, now, some of the external address space maps to ram and some to motor control registers iirc
12:08:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that should however give you an approximation
12:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
12:08:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I code in C, I let brickOS handle the really low level stuff
12:09:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, brickOS however is smaller than the official firmware
12:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Who write this in the first place?
12:09:17 <Phantom_Hoover> s/write/wrote/
12:09:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wrote what? the doc?
12:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> BrickOS
12:09:44 <AnMaster> it is on sf.net, not sure who wrote it originally
12:09:53 <AnMaster> iirc all the original developers are long gone anyway
12:10:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and I use a heavily patched version of brickOS called bibo since the sf.net project is basically dead and bitrotten
12:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> bitrotten?
12:10:33 <AnMaster> yes
12:10:44 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or did you ask what that meant?
12:10:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
12:11:01 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rot
12:11:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the second meaning there
12:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't suppose it means that SF's repositories are corrupted?
12:11:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no it doesn't
12:11:23 <AnMaster> "Bit rot, also known as bit decay, data rot, or data decay, is a colloquial computing term used to describe either a gradual decay of storage media or (facetiously) the spontaneous degradation of a software program over time"
12:11:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, as in "no longer works with modern compilers" or similar
12:11:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
12:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Like with old IOCCC stuff.
12:11:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I'm using old gcc and binutils anyway to be able to run this
12:12:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, here it usually isn't compile error, rather it is gcc configure saying: "wtf is this arch you want to make a cross compiler to? I have no idea what it is!"
12:12:41 <AnMaster> well, not exactly those words
12:12:47 <AnMaster> but the general gist of it ;P
12:13:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or binutils, which at least support the arch as such saying "wtf, you think I support COFF for this platform? Only ELF, sorry" (again not word for word the error)
12:14:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I am familiar with the general tone of error messages.
12:14:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and then of course there is the issue of getting these old versions of binutils and gcc to compile on a modern system :D
12:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I come across them frequently.
12:14:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sure? the ROM of this thing has a rather funny error message if the magic string is missing from the downloaded firmware
12:14:46 <AnMaster> well lets start with the magic string:
12:14:55 <AnMaster> "Do you byte when I knock?"
12:14:59 <AnMaster> the error if it is missing is:
12:15:05 <AnMaster> "Just a bit off the block!"
12:15:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think that is the usual tone of the error messages ;P
12:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but that's by LEGO.
12:15:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Who would be more frivolous than GCC developers.
12:16:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah but it isn't like no one sees it unless they are lego developers or hacking on custom firmware
12:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the world can do with some more confusion.
12:16:26 <AnMaster> :)
12:16:35 <AnMaster> s/no one/anyone/
12:16:43 <AnMaster> I got double negation there iirc
12:16:45 <AnMaster> err
12:16:51 <AnMaster> not iirc...
12:16:55 <AnMaster> "as far as I can tell"
12:16:56 <AnMaster> is better
12:17:00 <AnMaster> meh, I need to wake up
12:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, what actually gives the error?
12:17:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is sent back to computer over the IR protocol
12:17:42 <AnMaster> it is never displayed to the user by the normal apps
12:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
12:18:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate being born late for the interesting things.
12:19:05 <AnMaster> okay wtf....
12:19:11 * AnMaster looks at his code
12:19:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm? how old are you?
12:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover> CLASSIFIED
12:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> But, among other things, I only really got into computers a couple of years ago.
12:20:29 <AnMaster> I see
12:20:37 <AnMaster> and now. this makes no sense
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12:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you tried turning it off and turning it on again?
12:21:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, even more than that, I tried it in emulator as well, where I can input raw sensor value
12:21:43 <AnMaster> and it still shows 0000 all the time
12:21:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you sure it's plugged in?
12:22:25 <AnMaster> the sensor? yes, the sensor in the simulation? yes even more so
12:22:37 <AnMaster> I do see the sensor connected indication at the top of the screen anyway
12:22:39 <AnMaster> so meh
12:22:55 <AnMaster> wait, I forgot to bitshift the result
12:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, the sketch doesn't go any further
12:23:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ?
12:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt9j80Jkc_A&feature=related
12:23:42 <AnMaster> will check later
12:25:31 <AnMaster> hm what is the priority of & vs. >> ?
12:25:59 <AnMaster> ah & goes before >>
12:26:03 <AnMaster> means I don't need parens yay
12:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I very nearly typed "C operator president" into Google there.
12:29:37 <AnMaster> XD
12:31:25 <AnMaster> wait, there is a "display hex" routine, hidden near the end of conio.h
12:31:25 <AnMaster> heh
12:31:28 * AnMaster uses that
12:31:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Where's the fun in that?
12:31:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that I can get on to do other stuff
12:33:27 <AnMaster> interesting, the raw values of my two light sensors differ quite a bit for the same light level
12:33:58 <AnMaster> one gives black as 7700, the other as 8200
12:34:02 <AnMaster> hex that is
12:34:49 <AnMaster> since I'm driving them as passive the internal red led in them id off
12:34:50 <AnMaster> is*
12:36:56 <AnMaster> wait what, one of them gives a faint glow of the red led even when in passive mode?
12:36:57 <AnMaster> wtf
12:41:09 <AnMaster> also values seem to vary between some runs
12:41:10 <AnMaster> hm
12:41:23 <AnMaster> so calibration at startup is clearly required
12:54:56 <Phantom_Hoover> What does it actually do with the camera?
13:03:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, rotate it around the point of no parallax, and triggers the shutter at even intervals
13:04:00 <AnMaster> this should make for great panoramas
13:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Neat.
13:08:37 <AnMaster> hm it is quite a pain to reach and fix things in the lower parts now, due to all the bracing and supports
13:09:41 <AnMaster> on the other hand, it has enough bracing that it is quite feasible to lift it almost anywhere without something breaking. It is very sturdy indeed
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13:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Pics?
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13:54:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523!
13:54:57 <ais523> hi
13:59:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it isn't done yet, I have a test picture from a prototype that used my mobile phone, think I pasted link here yesterday
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14:06:17 <AnMaster> aaargh, technic beams are asymmetric... as in the hole on the side isn't vertically centred... making matching the sides of upside-down ones to ones oriented "normal" impossible
14:06:23 <AnMaster> how to solve this issue argh
14:09:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> TWICE.
14:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I demand the soul of your first-born child, AnMaster
14:10:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why on earth did you have to reboot your computer
14:11:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ... it opens just fine in gimp or such here
14:11:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, be happy it wasn't the 36 MB tiff version of it.
14:11:28 <AnMaster> and that was a deflate compressed tiff
14:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Firefox loads image. Firefox freezes. Whole damn computer freezes and I need to reboot.
14:11:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it was about 96 MB as uncompressed tiff
14:11:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, works fine in firefox here too
14:12:04 <AnMaster> slightly slow yes but goes away as soon as I close the image
14:12:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and this system is a Sempron 3300+ with 1.5 GB RAM
14:12:28 <AnMaster> hardly high-end
14:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The. Soul. Of. Your. First. Born. Child.
14:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> You still screwed my system up.
14:13:17 <AnMaster> no, you did :P
14:13:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or maybe the firefox devs
14:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't get the souls of their first-born children.
14:13:47 <AnMaster> but probably not the latter since it works fine here in firefox
14:14:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a bit hard here too, I have no children. It would be rather strange if I did, I'm 20 after all...
14:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I can wait.
14:14:28 <AnMaster> :P
14:14:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but you won't get it anyway
14:14:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, however, how could firefox freeze anything but itself?
14:14:50 <Phantom_Hoover> O RLY?
14:15:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, at the worst, ctrl-atl-backspace would have killed X and every X app
14:15:08 <AnMaster> no need to reboot then
14:15:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not care.
14:15:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how much RAM?
14:15:37 <AnMaster> 128 MB is my guess
14:15:40 <AnMaster> 256 max
14:15:45 <Phantom_Hoover> 2GB IIRC.
14:15:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yet it works on my system with 1.5 GB?
14:15:57 <AnMaster> without issues
14:16:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and I had like 4 rows of tabs open when I tested
14:16:29 <AnMaster> on a very large monitor with maximised firefox window
14:16:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, 4 *rows*?
14:16:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes, what about it?
14:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Firefox doesn't even make tabs into rows in the first place...
14:17:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, fits 18 tabs in each row
14:17:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, tab mix plus addon
14:17:25 <AnMaster> duh
14:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
14:17:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So you had about 80 tabs open at once?
14:18:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, about that yes
14:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ?!?!?!?
14:18:15 <AnMaster> I think there was one empty place on the last row
14:18:23 <AnMaster> after the image was open that is
14:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> What was in them?
14:18:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, um, a lot of different things?
14:19:45 <AnMaster> h8300 cross compiler stuff fills about one row, then some other RCX and general lego stuff fills quite a bit elsewhere, then some esolang pages, a bit about vhdl
14:19:51 <AnMaster> and a lot of other misc stuff
14:32:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, was it you who linked to that support thing video?
14:32:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
14:32:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, only had time to look at it now
14:32:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and the thing the second guy said made perfect sense to me
14:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> To me, also.
14:33:16 <AnMaster> well only under windows. It doesn't work like that under linux afaik
14:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not *perfect*, since I don't do Windows, but I know what system calls are and can guess the rest.
14:33:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I messed with windows kernel debugger over serial cable once just for fun
14:34:09 <AnMaster> so I have a fair idea of what that specific bit refers to
14:34:38 <AnMaster> actually virtual serial cable, between two windows VMs
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14:37:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Blargh, I wish I had an idea on what to do now.
14:38:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I am at the stage where I can feasibly implement the backpropagation algorithm, so I suppose I'll do that.
14:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.tomscott.com/evil/
14:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Testament to the stupidity of Facebookers.
14:43:04 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> I am at the stage where I can feasibly implement the backpropagation algorithm, so I suppose I'll do that. <-- ?
14:43:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm doing neural networks in Lisp.
14:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover> For an idea I had.
14:43:30 <AnMaster> okay, I know nothing about those
14:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look, I changed one line of code and I have people's phone numbers popping up on my screen.
14:52:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).
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15:18:26 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:18:27 -!- cheater99 has joined.
15:26:58 * Phantom_Hoover wants to at some point write a program that looks like it does one thing but actually does something completely different
15:32:19 -!- Axtens has joined.
15:36:22 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look, I changed one line of code and I have people's phone numbers popping up on my screen. <-- what?
15:36:45 <AnMaster> * Phantom_Hoover wants to at some point write a program that looks like it does one thing but actually does something completely different <-- a trojan?
15:36:57 <AnMaster> or perhaps a harmless trojan
15:37:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The link I posted above searches Facebook for groups wherein people ask their friends for numbers after losing their phone.
15:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god I hate computing exams.
15:48:13 <AnMaster> mhm
15:50:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:51:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:51:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I also hate the way this client handles ping timeouts.
15:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I hate the exams more.
15:53:43 <AnMaster> okay wtf: "After driving STBY low, keep RES low for a minimum delay of 0 ns, if less the RAM contents might not be retained"
15:53:50 <AnMaster> I think someone messed up their docs
16:02:00 <Gregor> You must keep RES low for at LEAST no time.
16:02:08 -!- tombom_ has joined.
16:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I seriously want to shoot whoever made my computing curriculum.
16:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It is the only subject I have taken where actually having prior knowledge is a disadvantage.
16:05:05 <ais523> haha
16:05:19 <ais523> but I sympathise, the IT GCSE here was rather stupid
16:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> At least at my old school they didn't do Computing GCSEs at all.
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16:05:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Although they basically started with using the mouse and worked up at a glacial rate.
16:07:40 <Phantom_Hoover> No, they literally started with the mouse, actually.
16:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> After logging in to the school system and clicking about 5 different things to start the damn thing, it assumed that you had no idea what a mouse was.
16:16:05 <oklopol> fuck computers
16:17:02 <oklopol> just saying......................
16:17:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, the ironing!
16:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose you're whistling into a phone to send that to the IRC server.
16:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (I know someone who knew someone who could make the dialup tone like that)
16:18:56 <oklopol> no i'm using a computer
16:19:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you mean *that*.
16:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Could be painful.
16:19:40 <oklopol> no i meant computers are stupid
16:19:46 <oklopol> no one likes them
16:19:54 <oklopol> nothing ironingbout that
16:19:57 <oklopol> * a
16:20:51 <oklopol> i hate insert, no one has ever had any use for the button, not one single use, and still it's there, and also it seems like there's some button combination that puts it on other than the insert button which i haven't figured out because occasionally insert is just on for no reason
16:20:59 <oklopol> HATEHATEHATEHATEIT
16:21:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Insert is extremely useful when you're programming in fungoids.
16:22:02 <oklopol> shit... that's probably true
16:22:07 -!- relet has joined.
16:22:36 <oklopol> okay so maybe those 5 people in the universe that program in fungoids are happy about insert
16:23:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Pause/Break, now *that's* useless.
16:24:26 <oklopol> you're clearly better at having opinions than me
16:25:30 <Deewiant> I don't use insert, I use R in vim
16:25:43 <oklopol> so just 4 people
16:26:23 <Deewiant> And I don't think I used it even before I began using vim to program fungeoids
16:26:53 <oklopol> and Deewiant is better at having MY OPINIONS, this is not a good day.
16:27:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:27:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:27:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wait.
16:27:37 <Deewiant> I wish vim had reverse replace, though
16:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> The Everest peak of useless keys is Scroll Lock.
16:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> IT DOES NOTHING AT ALL.
16:27:48 <AnMaster> <ais523> but I sympathise, the IT GCSE here was rather stupid <-- GCSE?
16:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> EVER.
16:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> EVEREVEREVER.
16:28:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, scroll lock does useful things
16:28:02 <ais523> AnMaster: an exam done at the age of 16
16:28:15 <AnMaster> prevents terminal continue to scroll
16:28:20 <AnMaster> so you can read what is on it, then continue
16:28:24 <AnMaster> well at least in theory
16:28:28 <ais523> enough to get you into low-end jobs like supermarket shelf-stacking, and good GCSE results are needed to be accepted into college so you can try for A-levels
16:28:34 <Deewiant> From the vim docs: "There is no reverse replace mode (yet)."
16:28:45 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: General Certificate of Standard Education
16:28:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what would reverse replace do?
16:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523: Surely not?
16:29:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow the English system is weirder than I thought.
16:29:22 <oklopol> this kb doesn't have scroll lok
16:29:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the college I went to required five Bs at GCSE in order to consider people for A-level
16:29:25 <oklopol> *lock
16:29:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Same as reverse insert, but replace instead of insert.
16:29:31 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so how old are you? I don't think I got an answer last time I asked..
16:29:41 <ais523> as far as I can tell, if you fail your GCSEs you're destined to become a criminal or a prostitute or something
16:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You do A-level in college in England?
16:29:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: did
16:29:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, unless stated otherwise I will assume 16 ;P
16:29:53 <ais523> I'm doing a PhD atm, though
16:30:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, btw which country are you in?
16:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: [DATA EXPUNGED]
16:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> And Scotland.
16:30:08 <AnMaster> ah
16:30:11 <ais523> and that's "6th-form college"
16:30:15 <AnMaster> wait, UK has different systems!?
16:30:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
16:30:24 <AnMaster> wtf
16:30:25 <ais523> wow, you're so lucky, I've heard that the Scottish education system is a lot more sensible than the one in England and Wales
16:30:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also, how often do you wear a kilt and play the bagpipe? ;P
16:30:35 * AnMaster runs
16:30:36 <Phantom_Hoover> The Scottish one was made by some monkeys on an undisclosed ut powerful drug.
16:30:39 <ais523> there's one for England and Wales, a different one for Scotland, and a different one for Northern Ireland
16:31:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: in theory, there are three types of fail at GCSE in England
16:31:23 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: Same as reverse insert, but replace instead of insert. <-- reverse inset?
16:31:25 <AnMaster> insert*
16:31:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have no clue what that would do
16:31:45 <Deewiant> :he ins-reverse
16:31:48 <ais523> in practice, there's more like five or six, because D, E, and sometimes C are technically passing grades, but not accepted by most companies
16:32:00 <ais523> or colleges
16:32:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "vim: command not found", there is vi though, heirloom toolkit vi
16:32:12 <ais523> AnMaster: why do you not have vim installed?
16:32:16 <ais523> I have it installed even though I hardly ever use it
16:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The full set of Scottish exams: Standard Grade (Foundation, General and Credit), Int 1 and 2, something called Access 3 if you're too stupid to live, Higher and Advanced Higher.
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16:32:34 <oklopol> everything before university is completely useless, why do they bother testing people who haven't been taught anything yet
16:32:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I never use it, it is incompatible with me. It always wants to be in another mode than me. And so on
16:32:47 <oklopol> who cares what random bits of information or understanding they have in their head
16:32:53 <ais523> oklopol: to justify not having taught them anything useful for years
16:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol: They do teach you stuff. Not much stuff, though.
16:33:18 <ais523> ugh National Curriculum
16:33:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The vim docs are online, just google +vim +ins-reverse
16:33:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so is it just like typing abcd would give dcba?
16:33:31 <oklopol> well i understand the bureaucratical reasons, that wasn't actually a question
16:33:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yep
16:33:40 <AnMaster> kay
16:33:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where does the cursor move during this?
16:34:02 <AnMaster> or does it stay still?
16:34:05 <Deewiant> It stays still
16:34:15 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yes maybe, but i sometimes exaggerate
16:34:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, relative which margin?
16:34:19 <oklopol> for fun
16:34:24 <Deewiant> It stays still
16:34:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, after all normal insert would stay still relative the right margin
16:34:43 <oklopol> although i guess i'm totally serious
16:34:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I assume it stays still relative the left margin in this case
16:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, Ireland uses GCSE as well.
16:35:05 <Deewiant> Right, you can think of it like that if you like
16:35:11 <Phantom_Hoover> *Northern
16:35:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, :)
16:35:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, reverse overwrite would be useful for befunge editing I suppose
16:35:33 <Deewiant> Yep
16:36:19 <ais523> M-x picture-mode
16:36:39 <ais523> as well as forwards and backwards, it lets you write vertically or even diagonally
16:36:41 <ais523> it's great for Befunge
16:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what about a delta of 3,4
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16:37:24 <ais523> doesn't do that AFAIK
16:37:27 <ais523> but nothing's perfect
16:39:30 <Deewiant> If only emacs had good text editing capabilities
16:40:22 <relet> can you somehow tell Chanserv to stdu or at least skip that standard message for you?
16:40:50 <ais523> I'm not sure
16:41:01 <ais523> /ignore ChanServ might work, but there are other reasons why that might be a bad idea
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16:45:03 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:47:11 <relet> indeed
16:47:52 <AnMaster> <relet> can you somehow tell Chanserv to stdu or at least skip that standard message for you? <-- does it hurt?
16:48:10 <AnMaster> I mean, it seems like a small detail not worth bothering about to me
16:48:17 <relet> I get private messages in a different tab. it's just annoying.
16:48:30 <AnMaster> relet, afaik chanserv sends notices
16:48:41 <AnMaster> and hm I think the entry message is set per channel?
16:49:03 <AnMaster> no clue if #esoteric has one set
16:49:13 * AnMaster uses a bouncer and wouldn't notice it
16:49:48 <relet> it's the first channel that does from many I have been in lately.
16:50:32 <relet> I mean, you could just use a meaningful topic, if you really want to tell people what the channel is about. :D
16:50:51 <AnMaster> relet, the /topic?
16:50:56 <AnMaster> that isn't related to chanserv at all
16:51:11 <AnMaster> relet, and I think tradition dictates we have silly stuff in /topic
16:51:27 <relet> and that's a good tradition, I think.
16:51:54 <AnMaster> and logs, but that is some freenode rule that says that if a channel have public logs, then it must be mentioned in /topic
16:51:56 <AnMaster> or something like that
16:52:33 <relet> I wouldn't mind if ChanServ sent me a new silly message every time I join.
16:52:57 <relet> it's the blandness of it that makes it annoying
16:52:57 <AnMaster> XD
16:53:06 <AnMaster> relet, what message was it for this channel
16:53:26 <AnMaster> iirc there is/was some random "do not troll" message sent randomly during some joins
16:53:30 <relet> See.. I already forgot... let me check.
16:53:36 -!- relet has left (?).
16:53:37 -!- relet has joined.
16:53:44 <AnMaster> hm?
16:53:52 <relet> ChanServ: (notice) [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Check out our wiki: http://www.esolangs.org
16:53:55 <AnMaster> ah
16:53:59 <AnMaster> well that is set per channel
16:54:08 <AnMaster> no clue who has access to change it
16:54:12 <AnMaster> lament I guess
16:54:17 <AnMaster> maybe oerjan
16:54:23 <AnMaster> and, it seems quite sane
16:54:39 <AnMaster> relet, after all, we do get some people here every now and then who think it is about esoterica....
16:54:49 <relet> You could just mention the url in the topic. Welcome messages are so Web 1.0
16:55:01 <AnMaster> relet, hey, irc is so web 0.0.1
16:55:06 <Deewiant> With topics like the current one, I'm not surprised
16:55:08 <AnMaster> apart from the fact it isn't web
16:55:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well there is the entry message...
16:55:26 <AnMaster> also alise set it. go figure
16:55:38 <Deewiant> I usually miss the entry message since it goes in the server-messages window
16:55:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan changed the welcome a couple of days ago.
16:55:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I was complaining about the dead link in it.
16:56:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it refer to "norton utilities" you think?
16:56:19 <Deewiant> Unlike you, I don't think everything is a reference
16:56:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would be rather silly though if it did
16:56:36 <cheater99> wassup guise
16:57:06 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Insert topic here | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Do not insert topic here..
16:57:56 <Phantom_Hoover> NO! Do not disrespect Emperor Norton!
16:58:01 <AnMaster> XD
16:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> He was real, you know. Google it.
16:59:22 <AnMaster> ??
16:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> And he had nothing to do with Norton Security
16:59:41 <AnMaster> oh a lunatic
17:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> An AWESOME lunatic.
17:01:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:01:13 <AnMaster> well yes
17:01:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:01:28 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> well yes
17:01:36 <AnMaster> and wrong button I presume?
17:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: An AWESOME lunatic.
17:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Bloody connection.
17:02:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that got through
17:02:52 <AnMaster> to which I replied what I said
17:02:57 <uorygl> conmunidad
17:03:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also it wasn't you connection: "* Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving)"
17:03:11 <AnMaster> that would be a QUIT :Leaving
17:03:13 <AnMaster> from the client
17:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> That's mainly because the ping goes funny and once the connection is restored sanity does not return.
17:10:57 <AnMaster> strnage
17:10:59 <AnMaster> strange*
17:23:20 -!- jamesstanley has joined.
17:26:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:26:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
17:26:55 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the thing is " quantum-complete"? -g ( was that fnord thing too. :) :( putty doesn't like that
17:31:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:34:34 <oklopol> PARTY
17:34:46 <oerjan> COMMUNIST!
17:36:56 <oklopol> okay now i have over 5 years worth of university credits
17:39:33 <oerjan> !
17:39:58 <oerjan> how many physical years have you done, i forget
17:40:53 <oerjan> 2-3?
17:40:56 <oklopol> two, although i didn't do anything during this last period, so i guess more like 1.75; although this is a bit of a lie because i did stuff during high school (almost 50 points, i now have 307 and 320 or something after i return my bachelor's)
17:41:05 <oklopol> (actually maybe more like 40)
17:41:14 <oklopol> (or 30)
17:41:16 <oklopol> (or 50)
17:41:34 <Deewiant> (60 being the "expected" amount per year)
17:42:15 <oerjan> ok so you have superhuman endurance. got it.
17:42:15 <oklopol> people seem to get much less done on average here, or maybe everyone i know is just slow
17:42:35 <oklopol> and then there's a few who do more
17:43:31 <oklopol> in the it dep you could pretty much just take all the courses, if i didn't aim for a 5.0 average i could do that and still spend my weekends partying like a monkey
17:44:04 <oklopol> unfortunately i don't like computers
17:44:37 <oerjan> i take it you never use computers then.
17:44:55 <oerjan> i see no obvious contradictions in that conclusion.
17:45:35 <oklopol> phantom made the same remark
17:45:45 <oerjan> huh
17:46:04 <oklopol> it's the people that make irc enjoyable, not the computer
17:46:13 <oklopol> but i do use this thing for other things
17:46:22 <oklopol> but i'm not proud of it
17:46:26 <oklopol> actually i totally am
17:46:38 <oklopol> i'm so fucking proud i could write a song about it
17:47:15 <oklopol> not gonna tho
17:47:18 <oklopol> or maybe i will
17:50:20 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I demand the soul of your first-born child, AnMaster
17:50:36 <oerjan> so clearly phantom hoover = soul collector
17:54:30 <oerjan> <Deewiant> I don't use insert, I use R in vim <-- i sometimes use Insert in vim, it toggles between R and i modes after all
17:55:48 <oklopol> i thought that was some sort of chuck norris doesn't use insert joke kind of thing type of anecdote
17:55:51 <oklopol> at first
17:56:03 <oklopol> but it wasn't very funny
17:56:33 <oerjan> well naturally chuck norris doesn't use insert, since he never makes any errors he just types the entire file from start to finish
17:58:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, arrow keys are broken in vim IMO. And so is enter at end of line in the middle of the file, and backspace at start of line
17:58:18 <AnMaster> iirc
17:58:27 <AnMaster> on the whole vim is very wtf
17:58:34 <AnMaster> even ed makes more sense
17:58:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't recall how arrow keys or enter are broken
17:59:37 <Deewiant> oerjan: Aye, but I never (as far as I can recall) feel the need to do that
17:59:38 <oerjan> there are a number of settings to change their behavior, though
18:00:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, in vi?
18:00:22 <AnMaster> or vim?
18:00:28 <AnMaster> they seem about equally bad to me
18:00:34 <oerjan> i don't know vi specifically
18:00:37 <AnMaster> nah, emacs for me, or nano.
18:00:52 <AnMaster> nano is quite nice for quick config file editing as root
18:00:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: you still haven't explained _how_ they are broken
18:01:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, iirc, enter took me to next line, didn't insert a newline
18:01:20 <AnMaster> or such
18:01:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, this was years ago
18:01:36 <AnMaster> I just remember the brokenness
18:01:38 <AnMaster> not the details
18:01:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: you were probably in normal rather than insert mode
18:01:43 <oklopol> oerjan: what os do you use?
18:01:51 <AnMaster> since I avoided /vim?/ since then
18:01:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, IMO insert is the normal mode of editing
18:01:58 <oerjan> oklopol: windows XP
18:02:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, overwrite is not the normal
18:02:06 <oklopol> oerjan: lol only noobs use windows
18:02:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: sure, and i just tested here and enter certainly starts a new line
18:02:19 <AnMaster> didn
18:02:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, didn't* ehird use windows95 for a bit?
18:02:39 <AnMaster> I mean, like during last year
18:02:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh and by insert mode i don't mean the overwrite/insert distinction
18:03:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, then what do you mean?
18:03:14 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
18:03:14 <AnMaster> the command mode?
18:03:20 <AnMaster> pretty sure it wasn't that
18:03:42 <Deewiant> It probably was since that's what enter does by default in normal mode
18:03:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, there is only one vi(m) command worth remembering:
18:03:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: what i mean is the distinction between normal (command) and insert mode is the fundamental one in vi(m)
18:03:51 <AnMaster> :q!
18:03:52 <Deewiant> (Command mode exists and is not normal mode)
18:04:07 <oerjan> heh right
18:04:09 <AnMaster> just in case you start it due to a typo of a command
18:04:21 <Deewiant> There's only one emacs command worth remembering: C-x C-c
18:04:35 <AnMaster> har
18:04:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nano then?
18:04:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh whatever you're just trolling
18:04:52 <Deewiant> Not even worth remembering anything for nano :-P
18:05:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah it has that list at the bottom
18:05:06 <AnMaster> helpful I guess
18:05:26 <AnMaster> anyway, nano is quite nice IMO for simple stuff where you don't need syntax highlight
18:05:30 <AnMaster> such as editing fstab or whatever
18:06:01 <Deewiant> vim is better :-P
18:06:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ed!
18:06:23 <Deewiant> No, not ed.
18:06:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, ed
18:06:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:07:04 <AnMaster> men jag skulle inte svära ed på att ed är bäst ;P
18:07:26 <AnMaster> oh wait, ais523 joined, I thought the only active people knew Swedish... meh can't translate the joke really
18:07:43 <AnMaster> (due to it being a pun)
18:07:47 * pikhq_ has been a-lurking
18:08:09 <AnMaster> pikhq_, well, translating puns is hard. Suffice to say "ed" is a Swedish word
18:08:09 <pikhq_> AnMaster: Oh?
18:08:19 <oerjan> meaning "oath"
18:08:21 <AnMaster> yep
18:08:35 <pikhq_> Sadly, "Ed" is but a name in English.
18:08:49 <pikhq_> I'm going to guess that's cognate with "oath".
18:09:03 <oerjan> probably.
18:09:27 <oerjan> the german is "Eid" iirc
18:09:49 <Deewiant> Not "Schwur"?
18:10:03 <Deewiant> Evidently both.
18:10:14 <AnMaster> sounds like "swear"?
18:10:28 <oklopol> from schweren right
18:10:32 <oerjan> "svära" would be the cognate of those
18:10:50 <oklopol> ich hab einen schwur geschworen
18:10:52 <oerjan> (no:sverge)
18:11:39 <oklopol> *sverige
18:11:52 <oerjan> i was not going to point out that
18:12:14 <oerjan> (they're not pronounced the same though, hard vs. soft g)
18:12:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, yep
18:12:46 <AnMaster> (wrt svära)
18:12:47 <oklopol> the swedish sound is neither of the english g's
18:12:58 <oklopol> i don't know what hard and soft mean
18:13:06 <oerjan> no more like english y
18:13:11 <oerjan> *no,
18:13:15 <oklopol> is the soft or hard one?
18:13:21 <oklopol> or both
18:13:22 <oerjan> that's the soft one
18:13:24 <oklopol> okay
18:13:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean like "sverje"?
18:13:42 <oerjan> g historically turns to the same as j in front of frontal vowels
18:13:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes
18:13:55 <oklopol> yes, sverje is how swedes pronounce it
18:14:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes that is how you pronounce it, but _iirc_ there are some dialects where this is not true
18:14:08 <AnMaster> forgot which ones
18:14:12 <oerjan> oklopol: also norwegians, for the most part
18:14:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, and we pronounce Norge as Norje unless we are trying to imitate Norwegians
18:14:50 <oerjan> otoh norge is pronounced with a hard g in norwegian
18:14:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, but not in Swedish
18:14:58 <oklopol> i read that as "irritate norwegians"
18:15:05 <oerjan> oklopol: THAT TOO
18:15:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, that too maybe. Don't know how they feel about it
18:15:10 <oklopol> :D
18:15:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, argh, how did you learn to write that fast?
18:15:39 <oklopol> yeah how can you write two words faster than AnMaster can write a sentence
18:15:41 <AnMaster> I figured I had a lot of time
18:15:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, exactly! oerjan is a very slow typer!
18:16:05 <oerjan> "Norge, Norge, det är ett ruttet land"
18:16:06 <AnMaster> well... was, yesterday
18:16:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, do ruttet mean the same as in Swedish?
18:16:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: that _is_ swedish
18:16:30 <AnMaster> oh
18:16:34 <oklopol> i'm an okay typer but i'm a very slow thinker
18:16:34 <oerjan> norwegian would be "rottent", i think
18:16:40 <oerjan> *råttent
18:16:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, also no, it is greasy, from all that oil
18:17:15 <AnMaster> major distinction
18:17:18 <oerjan> oh?
18:17:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah, your oil platforms
18:17:37 * oerjan isn't sure whether's he's being trolled right now
18:18:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, more like absurd humour
18:18:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, if you were allowed that recently so am I!
18:18:21 * oerjan googles and concludes AnMaster is lying
18:18:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, what?
18:18:38 <oerjan> ruttet definitely means rotten
18:18:38 <AnMaster> about it being absurd humor?
18:18:51 <oerjan> not greasy
18:18:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh I didn't mean rutten = oily
18:18:57 <AnMaster> I meant Norway was oily, not rotten
18:18:58 <AnMaster> ;P
18:19:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: ah well
18:19:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, nearly slipped outside the Fram museum....
18:19:40 <oerjan> most of the oil is exported anyway
18:19:42 <AnMaster> dangerous stuff...
18:22:08 <oerjan> <Deewiant> From the vim docs: "There is no reverse replace mode (yet)." <-- you'd probably want all four, or is it eight, directions available, like emacs picture mode
18:22:22 <AnMaster> oerjan++
18:22:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, also ais523 mentioned that...
18:22:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, how tricky could it be writing a few line of whatever scripting language vim uses to add that feature
18:23:01 <oerjan> that picture mode is more or less the only reason i've sometimes in the past considered emacs
18:23:03 <AnMaster> if it is like in emacs, not very tricky
18:23:04 <Deewiant> oerjan: Ideally, yes, but for starters, that'd be nice :-)
18:23:13 <Deewiant> Probably very tricky
18:23:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what?
18:23:21 <AnMaster> what sort of shitty software is that
18:23:23 <Deewiant> I don't think you can add new modes
18:23:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not
18:23:50 <AnMaster> how are the existing ones added?
18:23:56 <Deewiant> In C.
18:24:00 <AnMaster> wtf
18:24:04 <AnMaster> stupid design
18:24:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, aren't the keys just mapped to some "insert self" function?
18:24:36 <AnMaster> so you could override that with some more complex thing
18:24:46 <Deewiant> In insert mode, yes
18:24:47 <AnMaster> like you can do in emacs (note: note sure if picture mode does it like that or not)
18:25:09 <oerjan> you can certainly override on a per-character basis, don't know about at large
18:25:10 <Deewiant> I suppose it could be possible somehow
18:25:20 <Deewiant> There may be an autocmd for "character inserted"
18:25:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so then just add something that replaces the hook for key press to be something else than self insert
18:25:27 <Deewiant> If not, you'd have to map every possible character
18:25:39 <oerjan> (by defining insertion mode abbreviations)
18:25:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Right: they're not "insert self", they're "insert <key>"
18:25:54 <oerjan> hm or wait
18:26:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, okay
18:26:09 -!- jabb_ has joined.
18:26:15 <jabb_> !!!
18:26:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does that interact with different keyboard layouts?
18:26:23 <oerjan> jabb_: ???
18:26:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It works. The default insert mappings are magic, I'm pretty sure.
18:27:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh
18:27:07 <Deewiant> I.e. they're not mapped.
18:27:09 <Deewiant> Or something.
18:27:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, vim's code base sounds like a mess
18:27:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and the scripting capabilities sound very limited
18:27:41 <Deewiant> Don't know about the code, but the scripting is limited, yes.
18:28:03 <Deewiant> Lot less limited than a lot of more "normal" editors', but certainly much more limited than emacs's
18:28:39 <oerjan> hm abbreviations don't do what i meant, so i guess it's mappings
18:28:57 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if you even can imap an ordinary letter
18:29:03 <AnMaster> I wonder if picture-mode and viper interacts badly or not
18:29:10 <AnMaster> that might be a solution for Deewiant
18:29:13 <Deewiant> viper sucks
18:29:15 <Deewiant> vimpulse sucks
18:29:23 <AnMaster> vimpulse? never heard of it
18:29:33 <AnMaster> and viper, I never used, didn't see the point
18:29:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, why did you consider emacs due to the picture mode?
18:30:19 <oklopol> fung
18:30:20 <oerjan> Deewiant: :imap a b works fine
18:30:29 <Deewiant> Alright, cool
18:30:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: fungoids, ascii graphics
18:30:47 <oklopol> oh
18:30:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah, don't remember you doing much with fungoids?
18:31:01 <oklopol> he's done more than you
18:31:05 <oklopol> what ascii graphics?
18:31:17 <Deewiant> There's also a CursorMovedI event
18:31:23 <oerjan> no i _started_ an unlambda interpreter but never finished more than the parser
18:31:31 <Deewiant> Which may or may not activate on insertion
18:31:51 <oklopol> so probably it was 98
18:32:01 <oerjan> yeah
18:32:28 <oerjan> at least something with unlimited fungespace
18:32:33 <oklopol> unlambda parser in 93 sounds like quite an exercise in concise
18:32:38 <oklopol> well right
18:32:49 <oklopol> my only befunge program is 93 with unlimited fs
18:33:05 <oklopol> i don't even remember what it does wait yes i do
18:35:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait, did you mean "I haven't tested yet, and not documented" or "specifically documented as "may or may not activate on insertion"?
18:35:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's not that retarded :-P
18:36:31 <AnMaster> heh
18:36:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, what does it do?
18:37:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw do you have a 93 version of your "generate befunge number" script?
18:37:48 <Deewiant> I wouldn't call it a script
18:37:49 <oklopol> it's a calculator with single digit numbers.....
18:37:51 <Deewiant> And it supports 93
18:38:21 <oklopol> i didn't have much ambition back then i guess
18:38:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah nice, forgot if you made it public...
18:38:31 <Deewiant> By default it uses decimal, hex, and ASCII printable chars; you can config it to use only decimal, only decimal+hex, or decimal,hex,latin1
18:38:38 <Deewiant> Not sure if I've put it up anywhere
18:38:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, okay can you generate 1208925819614629174706176 in befunge98 for me
18:39:07 <Deewiant> I'm not sure
18:39:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh?
18:39:12 <Deewiant> Let me see if I have the binary anywhere
18:39:37 <AnMaster> assuming it support bignum, that is more than 2^64
18:39:54 <Deewiant> Found it
18:39:58 <Deewiant> 4'@'@::**:*:***
18:40:12 <AnMaster> hm
18:40:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess powers of two are quite easy
18:40:34 <AnMaster> yeah
18:40:41 <Deewiant> Speed depends mostly on the speed of factor(1) on it
18:40:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it only do multiplications? Or addition as well?
18:41:03 <Deewiant> How would you get primes without addition :-P
18:41:19 <oerjan> tricky
18:41:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed
18:41:44 <Deewiant> It used to do subtraction too but it didn't seem to help much so I removed it
18:42:09 <oklopol> i don't think i've actually ever needed subtraction for anything
18:42:49 <oklopol> i think they just have it for like completeness, because there's addition so it makes sense to have a kind of antiddition
18:42:50 <oerjan> oklopol: you and your positive-only thinking
18:42:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about 956960600005639447752170498370241
18:43:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hint: this is two large primes multiplied
18:43:08 <Deewiant> 'G'!8"++1}r"+']45'@**+******+"/*H"f' '@*+"IT@"f4+**+":KuQ"d4'@*+***+****+*
18:43:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, okay fast computer
18:43:18 <Deewiant> A school computer
18:43:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that could mean anything
18:43:29 <Deewiant> I'm in Windows so I don't have access to it on my own computer
18:43:41 <Deewiant> Seems to be a bit worse than my machine
18:43:44 <oklopol> might be smaller to just write "that number"(convert to number)
18:43:46 <Deewiant> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9400 @ 2.66GHz
18:44:02 <oklopol> but i guess that's been pointed out at some point because it's kind of a trivial observation
18:44:07 <Deewiant> It has
18:44:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, subtraction is just addition of negative numbers after all
18:44:14 <Deewiant> And "convert to number" is long
18:44:36 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't think i've ever actually seen a negative number outside textbooks
18:44:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, challenge: 131270734444548411694897002275486554358434553057
18:44:52 <oklopol> it's an interesting concept yes, but it's not actually very useful
18:45:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, eh, -2 C outside or such?
18:45:10 <oklopol> yeah Deewiant how well can your code call the factor program someone else coded for that number?!?
18:45:11 <AnMaster> that is a negative number
18:45:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, and you never look at thermometers I assume
18:45:34 <oklopol> err everyone sane uses kelvins
18:45:38 <AnMaster> well sure
18:45:55 <oklopol> in finland most people don't even know negative numbers exist
18:46:03 <pikhq_> Everyone sane uses Fahrenheit. And not this newfangled "0 < 1" scale either!
18:46:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, but normal temps on normal "how cold is it outside today" style thermometers use C I assume?
18:46:24 <AnMaster> pikhq_, was Fahrenheit upside down as well?
18:46:27 <AnMaster> originally I meant
18:46:32 <oklopol> no i think they use kelvins
18:46:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any comments on this? You live in Finland and you are saner than oklopol
18:47:08 <Deewiant> Nobody uses Kelvins :-P
18:47:09 <AnMaster> so what scale do common, non-scientific thermometers use?
18:47:16 <Deewiant> Centigrade
18:47:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right, as I suspected. You only use kelvin if doing stuff with liquid nitrogen or colder. Or for things with temperature around that of the sun
18:48:16 <oklopol> i've never even TASTED someone use anything but kelvins in binary
18:48:27 <oklopol> oh wait
18:48:41 <oklopol> why would anyone use a scale that has 100 so deeply integrated in its guts
18:48:43 <Deewiant> Well I guess scientists use mostly Kelvin in most countries
18:48:46 <oklopol> that's a horrible number
18:48:48 <AnMaster> or of course for white point in colour calibration
18:49:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep. But I doubt they use it to talk about how cold it was while waiting for the bus this morning ;P
18:49:11 <oklopol> maybe it's best not to think about temperatures at all
18:49:14 <Deewiant> Quite
18:49:23 <oerjan> oklopol: kelvin also has 100 deeply ingrained, it's just a bit better hidden
18:49:30 <oklopol> oerjan: i just said taht
18:49:31 <oklopol> *that
18:49:44 <oklopol> "oh wait"
18:49:51 <oklopol> because i realized kelvins in binary doesn't help
18:49:59 <oerjan> oh
18:50:14 <AnMaster> because nonsensical bases are fun?
18:50:29 <oklopol> then again who the fuck gives a shit about water so i guess it's okay that the random number 100 is associated with it
18:50:34 <oklopol> or wait
18:50:39 <oklopol> actually i love water
18:50:42 <AnMaster> base 10 doesn't really make any sense except anatomically
18:50:46 <oklopol> i was swimming yesterday
18:50:51 <oerjan> water is so deliciously wet
18:50:59 <oklopol> 4.5 meters deep no one can judge ya
18:51:06 <AnMaster> ?
18:51:14 <oklopol> i mostly dive when i'm swimming
18:51:18 <AnMaster> ah
18:51:50 <oklopol> because the other thing i like to do is play in the shallow end and it's embarrassing because i'm not 7.
18:51:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: factor(1) seems to be failing on that number
18:52:10 <Deewiant> Mathematica can do it in 7 seconds on my home machine
18:52:15 <jabb_> There are a lot of derivations of brainfuck...
18:52:27 <oklopol> jabb_: yes, and none of them is as cool as toi
18:52:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Cheating: "/*H"f' '@*+"IT@"f4+**+":KuQ"d4'@*+***+****+7'!8'/5'b'@*+'o4'@'U3'@*+**+'+'H2b'@***+")@OyA0@"*+***+******+*
18:53:14 <oklopol> your program has an option to give the factorization?
18:53:22 <Deewiant> No
18:53:23 <oklopol> even tho you're using it from the binary
18:53:27 <oklopol> so very cheat okay
18:53:33 <oklopol> i forgot humans can write code too
18:53:47 <Deewiant> I just fungified the two factors I got from Mathematica separately and appended *
18:54:05 <Deewiant> The program would've done the same thing eventually
18:54:15 <oklopol> actually i realized that before i even said what i said
18:54:19 <oklopol> but i had to empty my queue
18:54:33 <oklopol> okay
18:54:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how is it cheating?
18:54:45 <oklopol> why don't you use but one dimension
18:54:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as in, you did it in two parts?
18:54:49 <Deewiant> Because the program didn't do it all by itself
18:54:52 <oklopol> AnMaster: because it was a challenge for the program
18:54:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah
18:55:18 <oklopol> oh okay he didn't understand the part you explicitly said a few lines ago
18:55:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what algorithm do you use for factorisation?
18:55:26 <oklopol> i thought he didn't understand how that was cheating
18:55:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, I was reading scrollback
18:55:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: factor(1)
18:55:37 <AnMaster> got a bit busy there
18:55:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah, you invoke an external program. I see
18:55:46 <Deewiant> As I've said or implied a couple of times now
18:56:02 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes i know i just don't like misreading people's minds
18:56:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because factor(1) is much better than anything I could come up with :-P
18:56:10 <oerjan> it's a factor to reckon with
18:56:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, shell out to mathematica? ;P
18:56:33 <AnMaster> or W|A
18:57:03 <Deewiant> W|A doesn't answer
18:57:11 <oklopol> i actually have no idea what the best factorization algos are
18:57:18 <oklopol> what are they, please go through them in detail
18:57:22 <Deewiant> Mathematica could work but then I'd have to check whether it exists, for factor(1) I can just assume it :-P
18:57:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so fall back on factor?
18:58:05 <oklopol> knowing mathematica you should probably check the answer is correct, too...
18:58:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also you can't assume factor. I'm almost completely certain it isn't POSIX
18:58:23 <Deewiant> oklopol: "FactorInteger switches between trial division, Pollard p-1, Pollard rho, elliptic curve and quadratic sieve algorithms. "
18:58:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Of course I can fall back but I'd still have to check something
18:58:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: For factor(1) I can reasonably list it as a dependency
18:58:51 <oklopol> okay so i know two of those
18:59:13 <oklopol> actually i've heard of elliptic curve methods but no idea how they would help
18:59:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh
19:00:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, all I know is that they are linked to a lot of stuff that concerns cryptography
19:00:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: factor evidently uses Pollard rho: http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/factor-invocation.html
19:00:43 <oklopol> lol ok
19:00:48 <Deewiant> And it says that it's bad for numbers with big factors
19:00:57 <Deewiant> "for example, numbers which are the product of two large primes"
19:01:01 * Deewiant leers at AnMaster and his number
19:01:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I knew factor had that issue yes
19:01:15 <oklopol> isn't pollard rho like 2^sqrt(n)
19:01:22 <Deewiant> No clue
19:01:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not the details of why
19:01:30 <Deewiant> I only know trial division
19:01:36 <oklopol> errrrrrrr
19:01:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it manages just fine on one large and several small
19:01:59 <oklopol> yes possibly it could be that, i seem to have forgotten how it works
19:02:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what I did, enter some large random numbers, until I got some large primes, then multiplied them
19:02:11 <oklopol> actually i guess it couldn't
19:02:21 <oklopol> because that's the complexity of trial division
19:02:40 <oklopol> no umm
19:02:43 <oklopol> okay i'm being a retard
19:02:48 <oklopol> someone kick me
19:02:56 * Deewiant kicks oklopol
19:06:26 <cheater99> helloklopol
19:06:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
19:06:55 <CakeProphet> WOW
19:07:05 <CakeProphet> ...so my shrooming adventures bore no fruit.
19:07:12 <CakeProphet> I found some really cool red mushrooms though.
19:07:20 <CakeProphet> but they'd probably kill me if I ate them. No good.
19:07:23 <oklopol> yeah drugs are never the answer
19:07:29 <CakeProphet> psh,
19:07:34 <CakeProphet> that's what you think.
19:07:57 <CakeProphet> shrooms are the only thing that's not shit.
19:08:17 <CakeProphet> as far as drugs.
19:08:39 <CakeProphet> in any case, I've got some cool ideas for a stack based language. I just need to figure out a ridgid semantics.
19:09:04 <CakeProphet> I think I'll use an assembly like syntax, to make it like a VM intermediate.
19:09:33 <CakeProphet> er... tree-based, not stack. Technically graph -- since there's both hard and soft references.
19:14:20 <oklopol> why do you want a distinction?
19:15:04 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> shrooms are the only thing that's not shit.
19:15:04 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> as far as drugs.
19:15:04 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> in any case, I've got some cool ideas for a stack based language. I just need to figure out a ridgid semantics.
19:15:09 <AnMaster> XD
19:15:54 <AnMaster> that might be an usable way to invent new esolangs: get high and have crazy ideas
19:16:03 <oklopol> you'd think so
19:16:10 <oklopol> but not ime
19:16:33 <cheater99> what's less crap (for IM, not irc)
19:16:38 <CakeProphet> basically the language builds a huge tree, where the data constructors are bytes, floats, symbols, references (soft), and links (hard). Nodes are implitcitly enumerated and optionally named with a file-system like structures to handle scoping. The nodes can also be explicitly named and unenumerated (by giving it a name that with a dot)
19:16:42 <cheater99> pidgin or telepathy?
19:16:43 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: and yes, it definitely is.
19:17:05 <oklopol> telepathy is better
19:17:16 <cheater99> why?
19:17:27 <oklopol> is telepathy a program?
19:17:39 <cheater99> yes
19:17:43 <oklopol> otherwise your question makes no sense
19:17:43 <oklopol> okay.
19:17:57 <oklopol> then i retract my statement
19:18:39 <oklopol> i just know pidgin is crap (i extrapolate this from knowing it's aprogram)
19:18:40 <CakeProphet> there's no convention, but methods can be defined by storing operations in the tree without using the call operation on a symbol. Call basically is basically a goto instruction for symbols, and will move control flow to the branch in the tree with the given name. The "call" instruction also sets a .return link within the method program-tree
19:18:41 <oklopol> *a program
19:19:31 <CakeProphet> which can be used as a reference to the calling code... to do anything with (such as evaluate and return control flow, but it doesn't have to do either, thus allowing arbitrary control flow due to being embedded within the data structure of the language)
19:20:07 * AnMaster prods laptop
19:20:13 <AnMaster> that was an odd failure mode for X
19:20:15 <AnMaster> or gnome
19:20:17 <AnMaster> or whatever
19:20:55 <AnMaster> like, clicking stuff like buttons didn't do anything, clicking other apps in the taskbar sometimes worked, clicking inactive window did nothing. Clicking tabs in a window worked
19:20:57 -!- hiato has joined.
19:20:59 <AnMaster> this applied to all programs
19:21:06 <AnMaster> restarting X "fixed" it
19:21:18 <AnMaster> nothing strange like dbus crashing or such in the logs
19:22:10 <CakeProphet> there would be textual macros as well... to shorten the source code itself, along with the lisp-like "runtime macros", because they can arbitrarily change the structure of the calling codes neighboring nodes. The typical "standard function" semantic would be to have arguments as the children of the function symbol node. So you make a function symbol with argument children and do the call instruction on the symbol, and then the fu
19:22:19 <Deewiant> CakeProphet: "and then the fu"
19:22:26 <CakeProphet> ... :)
19:22:52 <Deewiant> I recommend a client that can auto-split lines so you don't have to worry about cutoff
19:23:01 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, your client cut it off there
19:23:04 <AnMaster> that is what Deewiant meant
19:23:11 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, what was after it
19:23:21 <CakeProphet> and then the function will destroy the childre and replace the calling symbol with the result.
19:24:21 <CakeProphet> by accessing .return . Oh and the unenumerated .. node represents a parent.
19:24:28 <oklopol> oh right you're talking about trees
19:24:47 <CakeProphet> so reference .return/.. would reference the calling nodes parent.
19:25:10 <oklopol> the destroy the children function sounded weird out of context
19:25:16 <CakeProphet> ... :)
19:25:30 * cheater99 destroys oklopol's children
19:25:31 <CakeProphet> ...also, filesystem - in tree
19:25:31 <AnMaster> cheater99, not using IM is better
19:25:47 <cheater99> AnMaster, you are such a useful and purposeful person
19:25:50 <AnMaster> cheater99, or: two tin cans with a bit of string in between
19:25:54 <AnMaster> that works really well
19:25:58 <CakeProphet> the root of the tree is builtin to each program. Stuff like system resources... the file system even as part of the tree.
19:25:58 <oklopol> but think about the children!
19:26:04 <AnMaster> cheater99, :)
19:26:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, that is what he did. You forget to say he shouldn't think nasty things about them
19:28:07 <CakeProphet> so to define methods, you'd append children to /f... because it's the standard place to store functions in order to seperate them from the code data.
19:28:16 <CakeProphet> *functions lol, methods..... too much Java programming.
19:30:32 <oklopol> cheater99: yes think only good things about my children, BUT NOT *TOO* GOOD
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19:30:55 <CakeProphet> OO would be simulated with graphs I guess. You could store methods in a sub-node
19:31:20 <AnMaster> hm methods should have several member classes, which contain namespaces contain aspect oriented templates with lot of buzz words
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19:31:28 <oklopol> interesting observation, "ninety nine" means "fucking, i fuck" in finnish
19:31:43 <oklopol> (when pronounced)
19:31:48 <uorygl> Like "I fuck while fucking"?
19:31:50 <AnMaster> sadly that isn't very esoteric, it is just java + C++ rotated 180°
19:32:04 <oklopol> no, ungrammatical "act of fucking i fuck"
19:32:28 <oklopol> this was tons of fun when i was 5
19:32:41 <AnMaster> at least you don't have the issue that Swedish has. en:six = sv:sex
19:33:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, what is "six" in finnish?
19:33:14 <oklopol> "kuusi"
19:33:21 <cheater99> yoface
19:33:35 <AnMaster> heh
19:34:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: don't you have a word for sex that sounds like sex?
19:34:45 <cheater99> 'seksii taimii'
19:35:04 <pikhq> ...
19:36:10 <Deewiant> oklopol: Actually not since the t in "ninety" is aspirated
19:36:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yes, en:sex == sv:sex as well. But that is a relatively new word for the concept I think
19:36:33 <uorygl> "Ninety" can be pronounced a bunch of ways.
19:36:35 <AnMaster> (in Swedish that is)
19:37:04 <uorygl> "Nainti" is the most proper pronunciation; you can also hear "naindi" or "naini".
19:37:13 <oklopol> uorygl: but none of them is the finnish one
19:37:15 <Deewiant> If not aspirated, it's voiced
19:37:19 <oklopol> if it's not aspirated
19:37:20 <oklopol> err
19:37:22 <oklopol> what Deewiant said
19:38:26 <cheater99> what is 'aspirated'?
19:38:27 <oklopol> anyway t is always aspirated so i consider it close enough
19:38:41 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspiration_%28phonetics%29
19:39:25 <oklopol> maybe i shouldn't but at least my mother not unlike yours
19:39:59 <oklopol> or maybe i should've said "not my mother" because not unlike is well whatever
19:40:51 <uorygl> Typos and lack of quotes are a confusing combination.
19:41:50 <oklopol> i typoed?
19:42:04 <uorygl> I don't know; I'm too confused.
19:42:26 <oklopol> i usually catch my typos and correct them
19:42:45 <oklopol> but you can ask Deewiant how that's parsed if it's too hard
19:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Who said what to me?
19:43:09 <uorygl> Neither "Maybe I shouldn't but at least my mother not unlike yours" neither ". . . because not unlike is well whatever" seems like English syntax.
19:43:35 <uorygl> Phantom_Hoover: oerjan quoted you.
19:43:39 <uorygl> 12:49:56 < oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I demand the soul of your first-born child, AnMaster
19:43:47 <oklopol> "neither .. neither .." doesn't look very english neither.
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19:43:56 <oklopol> (maybe it is tho)
19:44:00 <uorygl> Er, that latter "neither" is supposed to be a "nor".
19:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
19:44:12 <oklopol> (thought so, i mainly just wanted to add a third neitehr)
19:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Although Latin works like that.
19:44:14 <oklopol> *neither
19:44:14 <uorygl> Hi, CakeProphet.
19:44:28 <oklopol> uorygl: see one might say ", but your mother"
19:44:35 <oklopol> i went one step further
19:44:37 <uorygl> Yeah, in Spanish, the words for "neither" and "nor" are both "ni".
19:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I forget what neither... nor... is, but both... and... is "et... et..."
19:44:49 <oklopol> because i figured you people are smart and love decrypting confusing stuff.
19:45:02 <uorygl> Likewise, "either" and "or" are both "o".
19:45:12 <uorygl> I don't know if "both" and "and" are both "y".
19:45:35 <uorygl> Spanish is economical! Every one-vowel word you can say means something.
19:45:36 <oklopol> did you get it?
19:45:44 <oklopol> it does in lojban too
19:45:49 <oklopol> or they
19:46:17 <uorygl> A, e, i, o and u mean to/at, and, and, or, and or, respectively. :P
19:46:26 <AnMaster> <uorygl> Er, that latter "neither" is supposed to be a "nor". <-- isn't nor universal? Just like nand
19:46:35 <uorygl> Except that "i" is spelled "y" instead.
19:46:42 <AnMaster> so neither nand should work too
19:46:44 <AnMaster> or wait
19:46:53 <AnMaster> how do you write a nor gate in nand hm...
19:46:58 <uorygl> AnMaster: um, I was referring to how in that sentence, I accidentally said "neither" where I meant to say "nor".
19:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Idea: Huffman-coded human language.
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19:47:05 <AnMaster> uorygl, I know
19:47:08 <AnMaster> and?
19:47:10 <uorygl> But yeah, "nor" is universal.
19:47:27 <uorygl> Phantom_Hoover: take an existing human language and Huffman-code it?
19:47:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And make it pronouncable.
19:47:56 <uorygl> Right. Well, that couldn't be too hard.
19:48:00 <oklopol> uorygl: did you?
19:48:08 <uorygl> oklopol: no.
19:48:13 <oklopol> oh :\
19:48:31 <AnMaster> isn't it ((a'*b')')'
19:48:38 <AnMaster> I mean, using only nand and inverter
19:48:48 <oklopol> "but your mother is fat" => "but at least my mother isn't fat unlike yours"; "but your mother" => "but at least not my mother unlike yours"
19:48:50 <AnMaster> I think that should give you nor
19:48:53 <AnMaster> right?
19:48:54 <uorygl> AnMaster: yeah.
19:49:11 <uorygl> oklopol: got it.
19:49:33 <oklopol> AnMaster: also you need to mention inverters can be done with nand but i guess that's trivial
19:49:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, so now lets use "neither .... not nand (with inverted inputs)"
19:50:02 <oklopol> err
19:50:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes they can be done with nand, but I knew that since before
19:50:11 <oklopol> or wait what were you expressing
19:50:18 <oklopol> ((a'*b')')' = a'*b'
19:50:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes but that is an AND gate
19:50:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, use De Morgan to extract the ' from that and you get a NOR
19:51:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, I'm trying to rewrite "neither ... nor ..." into using a nand gate you see ;P
19:51:39 <AnMaster> wait so it would be...
19:52:06 <AnMaster> neither not ((not ...) nand (not ...))
19:52:08 <AnMaster> I guess
19:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Adrian^L, AnMaster ais523 BeholdMyGlory
19:52:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn.
19:52:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what?
19:52:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I did no mean to press enter.
19:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> s/no/not/
19:52:33 <AnMaster> still wtf
19:52:40 <AnMaster> why would you list nicks like that
19:52:40 <Sgeo_> No all!
19:52:45 <AnMaster> without meaning to press enter
19:52:49 <AnMaster> that is a bit wtf
19:53:05 <AnMaster> strange hobby
19:53:14 <AnMaster> would fit right into xkcd "my hobby" I guess
19:53:18 <uorygl> Terve, mitä kuuluu?
19:53:51 <oklopol> mits tss, lueskelen turingin koneista
19:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I was mucking about with the tab-completion.
19:54:07 <AnMaster> I see
19:54:10 <SevenInchBread> Has anise been around today?
19:54:15 <AnMaster> who?
19:54:22 <uorygl> Yay, more Finnish.
19:54:22 <SevenInchBread> ...anise
19:54:28 <AnMaster> no clue who that is
19:54:37 <uorygl> SevenInchBread: alise?
19:54:40 <SevenInchBread> .....yes
19:54:42 <SevenInchBread> :)
19:54:50 <AnMaster> oh
19:54:51 * SevenInchBread has impeccable memory
19:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't that a type of flavouring?
19:54:54 <AnMaster> not today no
19:55:02 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sin't that aniseed?
19:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Star anise?
19:55:11 <AnMaster> ansi?
19:55:44 <uorygl> Hrm, elative plural...
19:56:08 <uorygl> Is "mitäs tässä" an idiom?
19:56:45 <oklopol> the s in the end means nothing really
19:58:01 <oklopol> i think it's sort for "mitps", "-ps/pas", or usually "-p/-pa" are these meaningless thingies you can stick in the end of words sometimes
19:58:07 <oklopol> well not meaningless
19:58:10 <oklopol> but hard to translate
19:58:19 <oklopol> err
19:58:21 <uorygl> What does it mean?
19:58:40 <oklopol> and now to actually answer your question, yes it's an idiom :P
19:58:50 <uorygl> Ah, good. :P
19:58:56 <oklopol> "mit tss" doesn't mean anything afaik
19:59:20 <oklopol> or maybe some people use it for the same purpose
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19:59:42 <oklopol> yeah i think it's used quite a lot
20:00:10 <oklopol> i dunno i use english so much more
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20:00:15 <oklopol> :D
20:00:21 <oklopol> i wonder if that's true
20:01:12 <oklopol> now i use english every day at work too so if i continue ircing then it will definitely happen
20:02:10 <uorygl> You'll become a native speaker. :P
20:02:18 <AnMaster> <oklopol> "mitä tässä" doesn't mean anything afaik <oklopol> or maybe some people use it for the same purpose <-- same purpose as a nop?
20:02:24 <AnMaster> noop*
20:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Noop!
20:02:54 <AnMaster> that is quite nice, having a natural language with a NOOP. Then you can uh, align your sentences to efficient second boundaries!
20:02:55 <AnMaster> or something
20:03:04 <oklopol> i prefer nop
20:03:07 <AnMaster> oh wait, that is what the "um..." is for
20:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> What about "uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuU"?
20:03:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, then you have strange alignment restrictions
20:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the Fox News comment system appears to have been written by some platypi.
20:03:32 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: actually useful for poetry
20:03:34 <AnMaster> try rearranging your sentences
20:03:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:03:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, :D
20:03:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, "I want to/uuu do you", which is basically 90% of poetry.
20:04:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what? Not all poetry is love poetry
20:04:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't say that.
20:05:05 <Phantom_Hoover> 90!=100
20:05:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not even as much as 90% is
20:05:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Including the unpublished?
20:05:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: clearly it should be "nboth ... nand ..."
20:05:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you don't have any verifiable numbers over those anyway
20:06:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? Show me the steps to rewrite it to that.
20:06:31 <oerjan> THAT'S OBVIOUS
20:06:35 <oerjan> also punny
20:06:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:06:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but yes I was thinking about things like the Iliad. While love is involved certainly, it doesn't go along the lines of "I want to/uuu do you".
20:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> IT WAS ATTEMPTED HUMOUR.
20:07:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or much of Shakespear's works
20:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> REALITY DOESN'T FACTOR INTO IT.
20:07:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh, forgot to flag it as humour
20:08:00 <oklopol> AnMaster only understands his own humor
20:08:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, no, I understand some other too, why else would I read iwc?
20:08:33 <AnMaster> (of course I know what oklopol did is an exaggeration.)
20:08:35 <oklopol> i haven't read iwc i didn't think its point was to be funny
20:08:45 <oklopol> i would never exaggerate
20:08:57 <AnMaster> yeah and everyone uses Kelvin ;P
20:09:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: that 90% might have a large overlap with the 90% that is crap, so using classics as evidence does not cut it
20:09:01 <oklopol> not even if someone showed a gun in my ass
20:09:06 <oklopol> *shoved
20:10:25 <oklopol> what was the percentage of statistics that was made up on the spot again?
20:10:48 <oerjan> oklopol: 73%
20:11:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm good point about the overlap
20:11:30 <oklopol> i don't think i get that, unless sex is some kind of exaggerated masturbation
20:11:41 <oklopol> AnMaster: Phantom_Hoover made that point too
20:11:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, I would recommend adding to the discussion that this warrants further studies and then publish it as is
20:12:15 <oklopol> oerjan keeps mimicking him for some reason
20:12:25 <oklopol> maybe i'm NOT the next oerjan?!?
20:12:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, no his point as about unpublished
20:12:48 <oerjan> oklopol: hard to say. i have a theory that alise is the next zzo38.
20:13:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, unpublished != the crap, though there might very well be a large overlap
20:13:01 <oklopol> :D
20:13:38 <oklopol> i think it was the same point
20:14:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, they are different statements. Also the crap includes some stuff not about sex.
20:14:09 <oklopol> oerjan: actually i don't think we're that similar, you're better at topology.
20:14:17 <AnMaster> Like about bridges that didn't hold up
20:14:23 <oklopol> no considerable differences in personalities tho
20:14:31 <oerjan> oklopol: explanation: if that gun in your ass goes off, there will definitely not be any little oklopols
20:14:42 <oklopol> :D
20:14:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McGonagall#Tay_Bridge_Disaster
20:14:54 <oklopol> yes i suppose that was obvious
20:15:13 <AnMaster> I don't think it is about sex
20:15:19 <AnMaster> but I could be wrong
20:23:55 <oerjan> no, that one is about death. those are of course the only alternatives </freud>
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20:36:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, there is a third. Nature, especially "ode to the spring" or similar
20:36:58 <AnMaster> but yeah after that you only got modern statistical flukes which shouldn't even be considered proper poetry
20:36:59 <AnMaster> ;P
20:43:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait, how do we put E. A. Poe into this?
20:44:19 <AnMaster> ah it would be death
20:44:20 <AnMaster> right
20:44:31 <oerjan> so i thought. not that i actually know much poetry.
20:44:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, still I maintain that nature can be a valid third category
20:45:03 <oerjan> yeah, i was mainly making a freud joke there
20:45:32 <oerjan> and possibly not even correct freud
20:45:44 <AnMaster> Hamlet = death, Romeo & Juliet = death _and_ love, The Iliad = death mostly, a bit of love too
20:45:47 <AnMaster> hm
20:45:48 <AnMaster> yeah
20:45:52 <AnMaster> this seems to cover all
20:45:53 <AnMaster> :)
20:46:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh, didn't notice that
20:46:33 * oerjan recalls something about pastorals
20:46:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't they go into the nature category?
20:47:18 <oerjan> and perhaps some love as well
20:47:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, from wikipedia on pastoral poetry: "Pastoral literature began with the poetry of the Hellenistic Greek Theocritus, several of whose Idylls are set in the countryside [...]"
20:47:51 <AnMaster> yep, clearly nature
20:48:16 <AnMaster> I guess Theocritus didn't like the gods btw
20:48:17 <oerjan> the first poem example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoral would seem to confirm the nature+love
20:49:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, so we could say that all poetry is made out of three parts, hm not a good word... ah got it! elements. Right so, ... made out of three elements, in different proportions
20:49:55 <AnMaster> why did I get a dejavu there...
20:50:53 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element ?
20:51:41 <AnMaster> Ah indeed! their mistake was mixing up matter poetry somehow
20:51:57 <oerjan> heh
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20:58:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:13:27 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
21:14:12 -!- hiato has joined.
21:19:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:20:39 <uorygl> Huh. Apparently, there's a Finnish spot in Michigan.
21:20:47 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: bbl).
21:22:11 <uorygl> Hancock, Michigan.
21:26:10 <AnMaster> funnily "han-" is "male-" in Swedish, not "male" (would be "hane"), but as in "hangroda" (male frog), it isn't used about humans though.
21:26:25 <AnMaster> so what a dirty name of a place
21:26:39 <uorygl> Quite. :(
21:26:42 <uorygl> I mean, :)
21:27:29 <AnMaster> heh
21:28:20 <uorygl> I could go up there and speak Finnish, if I knew Finnish and if they know Finnish. :P
21:28:38 <Deewiant> That holds for most values of "there"
21:29:30 <uorygl> True.
21:29:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only most?
21:30:05 <Deewiant> He can't go up to all values
21:30:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, examples of such values
21:30:52 <Deewiant> The surface of VY Canis Majoris
21:31:21 <Deewiant> Even if uorygl were to know Finnish and they knew Finnish there, he couldn't go up there and speak Finnish
21:31:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? is it a neutron star or such?
21:31:51 <oerjan> alas, that would finish him
21:31:56 <uorygl> No, but it is a star.
21:32:02 <uorygl> A really big one.
21:32:07 <oerjan> the largest star known iirc
21:32:24 <uorygl> Yeah, Wikipedia says it is.
21:32:28 <oerjan> so more or less the opposite of a neutron star
21:32:43 <AnMaster> in a suitable protective vessel?
21:33:05 <AnMaster> of course I don't know of any such
21:33:13 <AnMaster> but you probably need anti-gravity too
21:33:35 <oerjan> hm if it is _really_ big maybe the upper atmosphere is so thin you could survive there
21:34:04 <uorygl> If you were inside a star, would it be possible for you to obtain usable energy?
21:34:25 <oerjan> hm the second law of thermodynamics might be a problem
21:34:34 <uorygl> Yeah.
21:34:40 <oerjan> not cold place to send waste energy
21:34:42 <oerjan> *no
21:35:04 <uorygl> How does the Earth stay cool? I guess we radiate energy into outer space, which means that outer space is in fact colder than Earth.
21:35:05 <Deewiant> I'm making a couple of reasonable assumptions here, such as no terribly unexpected technological breakthroughs during uorygl's lifespan
21:35:48 * oerjan whispers something about technological singularity
21:37:28 <oerjan> uorygl: the temperature of outer space is essentially the temperature of the cosmic microwave background (3 K) iirc
21:37:37 <oerjan> *about 3 K
21:37:50 <uorygl> Hm, I guess if you could put yourself inside some really good thermal insulation, you could probably pull hot plasma in, fuse it yourself, and spit it back out.
21:37:58 <uorygl> You could get a bit of a thermal gradient that way.
21:39:26 <uorygl> I'm guessing that solar panels emit light when hot and subjected to voltage.
21:39:38 * Phantom_Hoover changes client
21:39:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:40:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:40:45 <uorygl> Since they produce voltage when cool and subjected to light.
21:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently my name is "purple!
21:41:51 <oerjan> uorygl: i wouldn't want to bet either way, apart from blackbody radiation of course
21:42:50 <pikhq> uorygl: Most things emit light when hot. :)
21:43:00 <pikhq> And most things when subjected to voltage get hot.
21:43:11 <uorygl> Hm, yes.
21:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Given a gradient of entropy, can you use that for power?
21:43:53 <uorygl> Yes.
21:44:09 <uorygl> Because a gradient of entropy means that somewhere, entropy is less than the maximum. :)
21:44:10 <pikhq> Yes, that is how most power generation functions.
21:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> "most"?
21:44:55 * uorygl ponders a purely mechanical analogy of a solar panel.
21:45:23 <uorygl> So. A wire is like a cable, and light is like lots of little balls.
21:45:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:45:55 <uorygl> There's this panel thingy. When the little balls strike it, the energy from the strike goes into tugging the cable.
21:46:06 <uorygl> There's a ratchet that prevents the cable from slipping backwards.
21:46:30 <uorygl> The thing is, the ratchet generates heat when it's operated, and a ratchet, when hot enough, is no longer effective.
21:46:35 <AnMaster> <oerjan> not cold place to send waste energy <-- so build a huge stirling engine, extending from inside the star to a point sufficiently far away from the star
21:46:36 <AnMaster> :D
21:46:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:47:14 <uorygl> So it seems like a hot solar panel indeed ought to act light a flashlight.
21:47:30 <AnMaster> uorygl, what?
21:47:44 <uorygl> Indeed ought to convert electricity to light, I should say.
21:48:15 <AnMaster> uorygl, really?
21:48:17 <AnMaster> huh
21:48:32 <AnMaster> uorygl, sure the process in a solar panel is reversible like that?
21:48:36 <AnMaster> sure for motor/generator it is
21:48:47 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:48:54 <uorygl> If it weren't, we'd have a way to get around that nasty Second Law.
21:49:13 <AnMaster> uorygl, but can you generate electricity by shining a strong light on a normal lightbulb?
21:49:35 <uorygl> Light bulbs convert electricity into heat, and that heat into light.
21:49:48 <uorygl> The light will get converted into heat, sure, but that heat will not produce electricity.
21:49:54 <AnMaster> uorygl, why not
21:50:00 <oerjan> uorygl: um but the second law doesn't say that you can get better than blackbody radiation that way, i think
21:50:00 <AnMaster> it should according to your logic?
21:50:08 <uorygl> You can generate heat, but you can't un-generate heat!
21:50:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, what power-generation methods *don't* use an entropy gradient?
21:50:20 <AnMaster> uorygl, why not, isn't it the same as the solar cell?
21:50:23 <Phantom_Hoover> uorygl: UNLESS YOU'RE GOD.
21:50:47 * uorygl imagines a mechanical analogy of a light bulb.
21:50:50 <AnMaster> uorygl, also you can convert it into mechanical power using a stirling engine, then drive a generator with it
21:51:00 <AnMaster> but
21:51:07 <AnMaster> not with the lightbulb alone
21:51:21 <AnMaster> uorygl, black body radiation sure
21:51:24 <AnMaster> or such
21:51:57 <AnMaster> but my point was that I'm pretty sure any given device doesn't have to be reversible in itself
21:52:02 <uorygl> AnMaster: mmkay, I guess it will generate electricity, but that electricity will be Brownian motion.
21:52:09 <AnMaster> uorygl, eh?
21:52:27 <uorygl> The current will just sort of jitter back and forth randomly.
21:52:29 <AnMaster> ah
21:53:05 <uorygl> Hm, I would bet that diodes also heat up during use, and that hot diodes also fail.
21:54:02 <uorygl> In conclusion: thank goodness Earth's atmosphere is translucent.
21:54:45 * uorygl briefly wonders whether he's doing something irrational or pseudoscientific, but realizes that he's actually making lots of predictions.
21:54:46 <AnMaster> uorygl, what?
21:55:17 <uorygl> If Earth's atmosphere weren't translucent, light would neither enter or leave, and so photosynthesis would be impossible, and Earth would get really hot.
21:55:35 <AnMaster> uorygl, and yes hot diods can fail. Isn't that how one type of PROM worked basically?
21:55:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Willing power into being
21:56:04 <Phantom_Hoover> That has the caveat of not actually working.
21:56:08 <Phantom_Hoover> \o/
21:56:08 <myndzi> |
21:56:08 <myndzi> /<
21:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> It still doesn't work.
21:56:30 <uorygl> Suppose that there are lots of rocks on top of a cliff, and you generate power by lowering them to the ground.
21:56:32 <pikhq> uorygl: Heat would, however, enter. And it would end up leaving.
21:56:45 <pikhq> (if nothing else, because of blackbody radiation)
21:56:46 <uorygl> Does that have an entropy gradient?
21:56:49 -!- uorygl has changed nick to uorgl.
21:56:51 <uorgl> \o/
21:56:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:56:56 <pikhq> Yes, that is an entropy gradient.
21:57:01 <uorgl> \o/ \o/
21:57:07 <uorgl> \o/ \o/
21:57:08 <myndzi> | |
21:57:08 <myndzi> /< /<
21:57:18 -!- uorgl has changed nick to uorygl.
21:57:39 <AnMaster> misaligned as usual
21:58:19 <uorygl> \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/
21:58:29 * uorygl pokes myndzi.
21:58:41 <uorygl> \m/ \o/
21:58:41 <myndzi> |
21:58:41 <myndzi> /<
21:58:51 <uorygl> \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/
21:58:51 <myndzi> | `\o/ | |
21:58:52 <myndzi> >\ | /< /|
21:58:52 <myndzi> (_|'\
21:58:52 <myndzi> |_)
21:58:55 * Phantom_Hoover writes a function with 3 nested MAPCARs
21:58:57 <AnMaster> what?
21:58:58 <uorygl> Strange.
21:59:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel... unclean.
21:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> /m/
21:59:10 <Phantom_Hoover> \m/
21:59:12 <AnMaster> uorygl, at least it lined up, since you have the same nick length
21:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/o/o/
21:59:24 <myndzi> | |
21:59:24 <myndzi> /< |\
21:59:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, does not line up
21:59:43 <uorygl> It lines up here in my monospace font.
21:59:53 <uorygl> Hm, your client omits leading spaces, doesn't it.
22:00:01 <uorygl> Does this message look like it starts with a bunch of spaces?
22:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
22:00:35 <AnMaster> uorygl, there are spaces at the start of it
22:00:44 <uorygl> How many?
22:00:52 <AnMaster> uorygl, it is under your t
22:00:52 <Deewiant> The correct amount
22:00:54 <AnMaster> in omits
22:00:58 <uorygl> Huh.
22:01:00 <AnMaster> the D is under the t that is
22:01:08 <uorygl> Then I wonder why myndzi's stuff doesn't appear to line up.
22:01:10 <Deewiant> uorygl: AnMaster's client right-aligns nicks
22:01:17 <uorygl> Mm.
22:01:23 <Deewiant> So that all message content starts from the same column
22:01:32 <AnMaster> uorygl, the thing is, I have a divider, nicks right align against it, then the text left aligns on the other side
22:01:42 <uorygl> /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o\o\o\o\o\o\o\o\o\
22:01:43 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | |
22:01:43 <myndzi> /`\ /| /< /`\ |\ /< >\ |\ /<
22:02:00 <Deewiant> ______________o______________
22:02:01 <myndzi> |
22:02:01 <myndzi> >\
22:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Not for me, incidentally.
22:02:15 <Phantom_Hoover> But I'm using a non-monospaced font.
22:02:27 <AnMaster> uorygl, this is fixed (xchat has a floating one, was a bit tricky to do that with ERC), so "Phantom_Hoover" is max length, otherwise the nick will overflow the divider and thus the text would move out from the divider as well
22:02:32 <AnMaster> which would piss me off a lot
22:02:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, SINNER!
22:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not going to kill me, so it'll just make me stringer.
22:03:22 <uorygl> \o/ \o\ /o/ <o> _o_ -o- "o"
22:03:22 <myndzi> | | | | | |
22:03:22 <myndzi> /< /| >\ /< /| >\
22:03:22 -!- Foobarbazzotqux has joined.
22:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> s/i/o/
22:03:24 <myndzi> |
22:03:24 <myndzi> /'\
22:03:28 <Foobarbazzotqux> \o/
22:03:29 <myndzi> |
22:03:29 <myndzi> >\
22:03:37 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
22:03:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Foobarbazzot.
22:03:52 <Foobarbazzot> \o/
22:03:52 <myndzi> |
22:03:52 <myndzi> /|
22:03:58 <Foobarbazzotqux> \o/
22:03:58 <myndzi> |
22:03:59 <myndzi> /`\
22:04:03 -!- Foobarbazzot has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:04:52 -!- Oranjer has joined.
22:05:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oeranjer!
22:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like a cross between oerjan and Oranjer.
22:05:22 * AnMaster stabs Foobarbazzotqux for the horrible long nick
22:05:25 <Oranjer> :(
22:05:34 <Foobarbazzotqux> :-P
22:05:44 -!- Foobarbazzotqux has changed nick to Foobarbazzotquxq.
22:05:51 <AnMaster> who is Foobarbazzotquxq btw?
22:06:06 <Foobarbazzotquxq> This seems to be the freenode max length
22:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> One of our Finnish members.
22:06:31 <Foobarbazzotquxq> Or at least, I tried to set to something longer but this is all it gave.
22:07:20 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intersperse '/' $ ['a'..'z']
22:07:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, so that's why I couldn't call myself Phantom_Hoovershire
22:07:31 <EgoBot> a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h/i/j/k/l/m/n/o/p/q/r/s/t/u/v/w/x/y/z
22:07:31 <myndzi> |
22:07:31 <myndzi> /\
22:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Why a ?
22:07:58 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intersperse '/' $ ['A'..'Z']
22:08:00 <EgoBot> A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/I/J/K/L/M/N/O/P/Q/R/S/T/U/V/W/X/Y/Z
22:08:06 <AnMaster> !bf98 a,a.@
22:08:07 <oerjan> BAH
22:08:08 <AnMaster> hm
22:08:11 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a,a.@
22:08:15 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a.a,@
22:08:16 <EgoBot> 10
22:08:21 <Foobarbazzotquxq> !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intercalate "/\" $ ['a'..'z']
22:08:26 <AnMaster> right, that was the command
22:08:42 <Foobarbazzotquxq> !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intercalate "/\\" $ ['a'..'z']
22:08:42 <AnMaster> !befunge98 "/o/",,,a.@
22:08:42 <myndzi> |
22:08:43 <myndzi> /<
22:08:43 <EgoBot> /o/10
22:08:43 <ais523> Foobarbazzotquxq: you just hit one of my stalkwords
22:08:43 <myndzi> |
22:08:43 <myndzi> >\
22:08:48 <AnMaster> !befunge98 "/o/",,,a,@
22:08:48 <myndzi> |
22:08:48 <myndzi> /|
22:08:49 <EgoBot> /o/
22:08:52 <AnMaster> okay
22:08:57 <AnMaster> wth is going on there
22:09:03 <Foobarbazzotquxq> ais523: Right, "intercal" :-)
22:09:05 <AnMaster> oh it is trying to do mine
22:09:05 <ais523> hmm, are you trying to trigger myndzi deliberately
22:09:07 <ais523> Foobarbazzotquxq: yep
22:09:28 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a" /o/">:#,_@
22:09:28 <myndzi> |
22:09:28 <myndzi> |\
22:09:29 <EgoBot> /o/
22:09:29 <myndzi> |
22:09:29 <myndzi> /'\
22:09:33 <AnMaster> ...
22:09:35 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a" /m/">:#,_@
22:09:36 <EgoBot> /m/
22:09:40 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a" \m/">:#,_@
22:09:40 <EgoBot> /m\
22:09:44 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a" \m\">:#,_@
22:09:44 <EgoBot> \m\
22:09:46 <Foobarbazzotquxq> !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intercalate "/\\" . map (:[]) $ ['a'..'z']
22:09:48 <EgoBot> a/\b/\c/\d/\e/\f/\g/\h/\i/\j/\k/\l/\m/\n/\o/\p/\q/\r/\s/\t/\u/\v/\w/\x/\y/\z
22:09:48 <myndzi> |
22:09:49 <myndzi> |\
22:09:51 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a" /m\">:#,_@
22:09:52 <EgoBot> \m/
22:09:58 <AnMaster> wait what
22:10:06 <AnMaster> Gregor, why does it remove spaces at the start?
22:10:10 <AnMaster> Gregor, it is broken!
22:10:13 <Deewiant> !befunge98 a"/m\ ">:#,_@
22:10:13 <EgoBot> \m/
22:10:25 <Deewiant> Your spaces were at the end
22:10:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait, backwards, but still broken
22:10:31 <AnMaster> it removed spaces there too
22:10:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and at end
22:10:43 <AnMaster> it strips trailing/leading spaces
22:10:44 <AnMaster> :(
22:11:43 <oerjan> !haskell putStr " what "
22:11:44 <EgoBot> what
22:11:51 <oerjan> :(
22:12:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, see
22:12:10 <AnMaster> it is broken
22:12:12 -!- Foobarbazzotquxq has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
22:12:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, !!!!!!!!
22:12:31 <AnMaster> so, who was Foobarbazzotquxq?
22:13:00 <oerjan> a mysterious stranger
22:13:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, unlikely
22:13:23 <AnMaster> .fi
22:13:26 <AnMaster> but chatzilla at quit
22:13:38 <ais523> not someone I recognise
22:13:43 <AnMaster> doesn't match Deewiant or oklopol or fizzie
22:13:43 <ais523> they were acting like a regular, though
22:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol: I accuse you.
22:13:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
22:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Bahh.
22:13:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, -oklopol- VERSION mIRC v6.35 Khaled Mardam-Bey
22:13:59 <FireFly> xchat; why?
22:14:04 <AnMaster> could have used a non-standard irc client
22:14:07 <AnMaster> FireFly, mistab of fizzie
22:14:10 <FireFly> Ah
22:14:15 <AnMaster> FireFly, but hi anyway
22:14:22 <FireFly> ;)
22:14:22 <Deewiant> I thought I was pretty obvious but I guess not
22:14:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, was a while ago I last saw you speak
22:14:24 <FireFly> Hm
22:14:31 <FireFly> Yep, been doing other stuff
22:14:41 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
22:14:45 <FireFly> :D
22:15:12 <FireFly> Caps lock
22:15:15 * FireFly withdraws
22:15:54 <oerjan> lacks cop
22:16:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, withdrawal from the swatter?
22:16:12 <AnMaster> hm
22:16:13 <AnMaster> perhaps
22:16:17 <oerjan> yes
22:16:52 <FireFly> The fact that I speak as we speak is a pretty solid symptom
22:17:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, wait, was that a meme variant?
22:17:13 <FireFly> Hm
22:17:15 <FireFly> Actually not
22:17:18 <FireFly> But it does look like one
22:17:29 <AnMaster> FireFly, the "put some X in your X so you can X while you X" or however it goes
22:17:32 <oerjan> if it walks like a meme...
22:17:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, AUGH
22:17:44 <FireFly> Is #esoteric duck-typed?
22:18:27 <oerjan> of course, i'm letting a duck do all my typing. doesn't everyone?
22:18:40 <oerjan> or wait, maybe that's why my typing is so slow
22:18:55 <AnMaster> :D
22:19:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, if it walks like a meme it is probably an MMU, right?
22:19:07 <Deewiant> Pretty accurate though
22:19:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ffs, trained duck obviously
22:19:45 <oerjan> it's an immigrant from peking
22:19:57 <AnMaster> what=
22:20:01 <AnMaster> s/=/?/
22:20:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, you'd expect such to be fast as well
22:20:27 <FireFly> A miracle it hasn't been eaten yet, though
22:20:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how could it be fast when it has to aim a twig hold in it's mouth to type
22:21:02 <AnMaster> ...
22:21:07 <AnMaster> that's just absurd
22:21:16 <Deewiant> I didn't realize a twig was involved
22:21:20 <Deewiant> Is it also trained?
22:22:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the twig? Varies, untrained twigs are more common in the southern parts of Europe, elsewhere it is mostly trained twigs only
22:22:22 <Deewiant> Mm
22:23:28 <oerjan> FireFly: well that's why it emigrated, obviously
22:23:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I suppose the twig is trained then?
22:23:53 <oerjan> what twig
22:23:54 <FireFly> Ah, I guess so
22:23:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, see above
22:24:07 <AnMaster> since it wasn't from southern Europe
22:24:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway the twig is needed because otherwise it can't hit a single key at a time
22:24:27 <oerjan> seriously AnMaster, you shouldn't go around making such stupid ideas out of thin air
22:24:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can't it just peck?
22:24:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, this is common knowledge, nice try at joke there, but it isn't 1 April
22:25:19 <oerjan> Deewiant: it's very much a peck and hunt typer
22:25:35 <Deewiant> Yes, that's what I'd imagine from a duck
22:25:52 <Deewiant> (Btw, it's "hunt and peck")
22:25:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends on the species, how wide the end is
22:26:10 <AnMaster> what do you call the "näbb" in English btw?
22:26:12 <AnMaster> of a bird
22:26:13 <Deewiant> Well, if you have a typist duck you obviously want a thin-billed one
22:26:23 <AnMaster> ah bill
22:26:24 <AnMaster> right
22:26:34 <Deewiant> Or b eak
22:26:35 <Deewiant> beak*
22:26:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but this was only found out relatively recently, thus the twig is still common practise
22:26:51 <Deewiant> Bill is for the flat kind of ones, I think
22:26:56 <oerjan> Deewiant: no it pecks the keys so hard it has to hunt for them afterwards
22:27:07 <Deewiant> That seems extremely suboptimal
22:27:15 <oerjan> you'd think
22:27:16 <Deewiant> I'd go so far as to call that pessimal
22:27:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see, that is the downside of using thin-beaked ones
22:27:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you won't get that with a twig, it will slide before that point
22:27:39 <Deewiant> Meh
22:27:45 <Deewiant> All too complicated
22:27:46 <AnMaster> or break
22:27:52 <Deewiant> I think I'll just type myself for the time being
22:28:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what? Rube Goldberg said it was too simple when asked.
22:28:42 <AnMaster> surely you are jesting!
22:28:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: the upside is that the bill is small
22:29:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh yeah it doesn't cost a lot
22:29:08 <Deewiant> Rube Goldberg's standards are not mine
22:29:28 <oerjan> it's the goldberg standard
22:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.diycalculator.com/sp-hrrgcomp.shtml
22:30:58 <Phantom_Hoover> The Rube Goldberg computer.
22:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (I've already posted it but whatever)
22:31:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, old
22:31:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan made me.
22:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
22:31:41 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot?
22:32:07 <Deewiant> fungot
22:32:07 <fungot> Deewiant: and is one of the other qubits should stay the same?)
22:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> O fungot, o fungot, where hast thou gone?
22:32:11 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the job of a portable bignum library? i think you should understand how to determine for certain if you are
22:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style lovecraft
22:32:24 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
22:32:31 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, much better.
22:32:32 <oerjan> fungot: how much does the job of a portable bignum library pay?
22:32:33 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the unfinished pictures on fnord or in the tacit assumption that from this line sprang the bold companion and lieutenant of the black abyss sharply fnord tunnels whose mouths we carefully drew, according to the carvings from which we had instinctively clung throughout our desperate flight, we fnord a branch of the de grey and entered the hotel; while the passengers the same men whom i had thought.
22:32:34 <fungot> oerjan: the whisperer in darkness. once, for example. he fnord me on his professional honor that joe slater was unmistakably dying. perhaps it was what poor lakes dissection had indicated fnord and to this they bent all the force of its fnord and fnord palace of the sun, but grey and dismal.
22:32:47 <Deewiant> ^style
22:32:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> How the hell is "fnord" Lovecraftian?
22:33:16 <Deewiant> "fnord" is the replacement used when there's only one instance of the actual word in the corpus
22:33:28 <Deewiant> Thus, "fnord" becomes very Lovecraftian.
22:33:30 <pikhq> For greater amusement.
22:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style jargon
22:33:42 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
22:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
22:33:45 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: " in solaris, sun will address that problem, that your intentions have been organized very differently than most people think--perhaps around a single token. like what the ethernet type field isn't recognizable. oh, and
22:33:59 <oerjan> hoc est corpus cthulhu
22:34:11 <pikhq> fungot: What thinketh ye?
22:34:11 <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. if is not the maximum size declared by any module that is near telegraph ave, where you put your keys.
22:34:34 <pikhq> Oooh, Telegraph Ave.
22:34:40 <Deewiant> Where you put your keys.
22:35:00 <oerjan> the keys to success
22:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
22:35:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style speeches
22:35:31 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
22:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
22:35:35 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: " says i, ' i can't afford it, mr. owen, i am satisfied, with the golden staff in one hand and the school report in the other.
22:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
22:35:41 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the battle of waterloo, barere proposed that the members of the house to take away the big coat from the little boy and to put perpetual desolation as a barrier between him and his hotel but hell and the hackman."
22:35:57 <AnMaster> ^style ct
22:35:57 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:36:07 <AnMaster> fungot, what about the sword?
22:36:07 <fungot> AnMaster: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
22:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
22:36:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! are you leaving!
22:36:11 <AnMaster> fungot, no?
22:36:12 <fungot> AnMaster: cyrus! are you leaving!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!! gotcha!
22:36:21 <AnMaster> fungot, seriously the sword...
22:36:21 <fungot> AnMaster: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am, are you?! c'mon!!!
22:36:25 <AnMaster> fungot, ...
22:36:25 <fungot> AnMaster: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale?
22:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot: I'm not leaving.
22:36:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: but, we are far outnumbered!? i sense!"
22:36:35 <AnMaster> fungot, sigh
22:36:35 <fungot> AnMaster: but, we are far outnumbered! the king does not wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
22:36:41 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot: We aren't that outnumbered.
22:36:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that swor
22:36:45 <AnMaster> YES!
22:36:49 <AnMaster> perfect
22:37:00 <AnMaster> ^style
22:37:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:37:06 <AnMaster> ^style darwin
22:37:06 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
22:37:10 <AnMaster> fungot, hello there
22:37:13 <fungot> AnMaster: if this passage, which probably is an entrance:/ water at great depths:/ pressure, though spread over a wider surface than that acted on by like causes inducing similar modifications. with respect to/ tower-like castings near nice had been ejected on an inclined surface, and not exclusively from being transported to a distance :) about half a crown apiece. it seems however doubtful, judging from those two wonderful an
22:37:31 <Deewiant> /two/ an?
22:37:36 <Deewiant> fungot: You sure?
22:37:38 <fungot> Deewiant: ever yours, c. darwin. 17 spring gardens, london, fnord, morphology, adaptive characters, 426. land-shells, distribution :), 394. man, moreover, made a great blunder in taking families instead :) smaller groups will become utterly extinct. in failing orders, with/ exception :) a few miles from edinburgh, and saw and conversed with many :) its shorter axis: there are, according to their periods :) arrival and maturity
22:37:43 <AnMaster> the smiles were a bug iirc
22:37:48 <AnMaster> in the model generator
22:38:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style agora
22:38:31 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
22:38:33 <AnMaster> "17 spring gardens, london, fnord" <-- best address ever
22:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
22:38:34 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: players may vote on an ordinary
22:38:46 <AnMaster> fungot, now this style is boring, don't you agree
22:38:46 <fungot> AnMaster: ( a) auctioneer: the auction e is the
22:38:51 <AnMaster> yeah exactly
22:39:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it's a nomic in case you don't know
22:39:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Agora is one of those things I might conceivably be interested in, but I can't be bothered. Eh, fungot?
22:39:06 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: b) if an oligarch at the time of casting unity
22:39:34 <AnMaster> ^style ic
22:39:34 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
22:39:38 <AnMaster> fungot, hi there
22:39:38 <fungot> AnMaster: e099 programmer is insufficiently polite
22:39:51 <AnMaster> fungot, PLEASE say something then
22:39:52 <fungot> AnMaster: the `try again'. ( the last character output before it will issue this warning is meant to go, and from-gerund `come from' itself ( if a `come from'.
22:40:11 <AnMaster> fungot, heh
22:40:11 <fungot> AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions
22:40:22 <AnMaster> ais523, hey, was that all versions ^
22:40:30 <Deewiant> yes all versions all versions
22:40:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't trust fungot
22:40:39 <fungot> AnMaster: the multithreading and backtracking extensions to intercal programs; it cannot be `reinstated' or `next from's. the solution is to produce 32-bit results; except in some ways than some other languages.
22:40:42 <ais523> AnMaster: it means, it's available in all versions of c-intercal and clc-intercal, also in intercal-72
22:40:44 <oerjan> obviously obviously
22:40:46 <ais523> it's fungot attempting to repeat a table
22:40:46 <fungot> ais523: this declaration and definition::.
22:40:58 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
22:41:14 <AnMaster> ^style
22:41:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:41:28 <pikhq> ^style youtube
22:41:28 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
22:41:36 <pikhq> fungot: Like youtube?
22:41:36 <fungot> pikhq: dont fuck this movie
22:41:43 <AnMaster> fungot, good idea
22:41:43 <fungot> AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever.
22:41:51 <AnMaster> but pikhq beat me to selecting a style hm
22:42:04 <AnMaster> fungot, also I don't agree that is awesome
22:42:04 <fungot> AnMaster: whats the difference between watching in hd
22:42:04 <pikhq> Oddly, fungot appears to be more grammatical off of Youtube comments.
22:42:05 <fungot> pikhq: music on myspace...paulo brazil search and select the first computer controlled
22:42:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, ?
22:42:20 <AnMaster> ^style europarl
22:42:20 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
22:42:30 <AnMaster> fungot, hm?
22:42:30 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would like to take an extremely firm request to the governments.
22:42:41 <ais523> pikhq: it's because youtube comments are stupid enough on average anyway that fungot grammar wouldn't be any worse
22:42:42 <fungot> ais523: mr president, the iranian sentences, which have not been able to prepare that ground carefully. on south-eastern europe, i must say that today's debate has shown, with what moral authority, can the governments of the united states
22:42:44 <AnMaster> fungot, oh, carry on, what is this request?
22:42:45 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, i know it is still important to recall the context in which these organic compounds are released. and the way we pay taxes!' just like myself, at the actions of ukraine in the field of biotechnology. to allow forests to grow.
22:43:12 <AnMaster> fungot, I fail to see how tax and organic compounds are related but carry on...
22:43:13 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, we europeans most certainly have. once again, by the vice-president in the chair.
22:43:21 <AnMaster> heh
22:44:07 <oerjan> you can tax organic compounds. Q.E.D.
22:44:09 <AnMaster> "the iranian sentences, which have not been able to prepare that ground carefully." <-- wtf, some sort of alchemy?
22:44:38 <AnMaster> ^style
22:44:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:44:48 <AnMaster> ^style ss
22:44:48 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
22:44:52 <AnMaster> fungot, oh?
22:44:52 <fungot> AnMaster: sir godfrey.
22:44:59 <AnMaster> fungot, I don't think I seen this before
22:45:00 <fungot> AnMaster: powres the poyson in his eares. yet i perswade my selfe, richard shall liue to make the wench amends, is to goe to the feast, and to the marriage of true minds admit impediments, love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, or bends with the remover to remove. o no, no
22:45:21 <AnMaster> I can't read that, well only random words
22:45:29 <AnMaster> just comes out as jumble to me
22:45:35 * pikhq can read it just fine
22:45:37 <AnMaster> maybe a native English speaker could manage it
22:45:43 <pikhq> It's not *coherent*, but certainly can read it.
22:45:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what about you
22:45:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but you are not typical
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22:46:09 <AnMaster> you could use that sort of language in all seriousness!
22:46:14 <ais523> it's not hard to read
22:46:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: Most of it is just archaic spellings.
22:46:27 <AnMaster> liue?
22:46:28 <ais523> the spelling's outdated, that's about it
22:46:31 <pikhq> I haven't a clue what "liue" is, though.
22:46:44 <ais523> "live" probably
22:46:44 <oerjan> live ?
22:46:52 <ais523> there wasn't a large distinction between "u" and "v" back then
22:47:04 <pikhq> Except that they did have a huge distinction between "u" and "v" back then.
22:47:08 <AnMaster> ^style
22:47:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss* wp youtube
22:47:12 <AnMaster> ^style ff7
22:47:12 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
22:47:16 <AnMaster> oh that one
22:47:17 <AnMaster> meh
22:47:20 <AnMaster> ^style fisher
22:47:20 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
22:47:40 <AnMaster> hm I think I reached the limit, someone else have to talk to it next
22:47:45 <oerjan> something fishy about that
22:47:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, so highlight fungot
22:47:55 <pikhq> HAIL FUNGOT TOGNUF
22:48:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, case sensitive
22:48:08 <oerjan> FUNGOT THE GREAT
22:48:13 <pikhq> HAIL fungot TOGNUF
22:48:13 <AnMaster> case sensitive!
22:48:13 <fungot> pikhq: who can't separate between like i i think you can do to this computer that i can't
22:48:16 <AnMaster> ah
22:48:22 <AnMaster> fungot, what?
22:48:22 <fungot> AnMaster: right right um i i borrowed a may twenty sixth copy of business week has been our mayor of detroit got into a fight with w- laughter one of the
22:48:44 <AnMaster> strange style
22:48:55 <Deewiant> fungot: Awesome
22:48:56 <fungot> Deewiant: so do you know he
22:49:00 <Deewiant> fungot: Yep
22:49:00 <fungot> Deewiant: yeah yeah it doesn't feel good but like when i first started going to the theater
22:49:29 <AnMaster> fungot, eh?
22:49:29 <fungot> AnMaster: if you're not happy))
22:49:34 <AnMaster> fungot, oh I am
22:49:34 <fungot> AnMaster: un- unless he starts to en- to enjoy watching the tae bo that i had
22:49:45 <Deewiant> fungot: Tae bo?
22:49:45 <fungot> Deewiant: no she no they're not having ah they're not you got to look at why they try to get together there you know
22:50:01 <Deewiant> Awfully schizophrenic :-P
22:51:23 <AnMaster> haha
22:51:46 <Deewiant> fungot: No, I don't know
22:51:46 <fungot> Deewiant: um i'm pretty sure
22:51:52 <Deewiant> fungot: I'm sure
22:51:52 <fungot> Deewiant: which makes me even more of our liberties so i i
22:52:26 <AnMaster> fungot, hm
22:52:26 <fungot> AnMaster: you might as well be in the court i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
22:52:39 <AnMaster> ^style
22:52:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:52:42 <AnMaster> ^style alice
22:52:45 <AnMaster> ^style alice
22:52:45 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
22:52:49 <AnMaster> fungot, and then?
22:52:50 <fungot> AnMaster: ' it's a great huge game of chess that's being fnord over the fnord of the fnord here?" he said, taking up quite a bunch of needles.
22:53:12 <AnMaster> meh, too much to hope for the court scene there ;P
22:53:18 <AnMaster> it would have been just too awesome
22:53:26 <AnMaster> fungot, chess, I see
22:53:26 <fungot> AnMaster: " why, suppose oo're walking, fnord" the vice-warden was saying with enthusiasm. " you see, a minute goes by so fearfully quick. you might have known, if you don't hold your tongues, i'll pick you!'
22:53:34 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
22:53:35 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that i had been talking to) was balancing itself on a twig just over her head, ' you may call it " eerie," and sylvie went on again.
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23:06:17 <SgeoN1> Awesome, Windows will not boot into safe mode
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23:39:09 <jabb_> By George, I've got it!
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00:38:09 <jabb> I am so uncreative at naming things. :(
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01:06:16 <coppro> holy shit, the new copyright bill here doesn't unilaterally suck
01:06:31 <coppro> digital locks provisions do (DMCA-style :(), but the rest is actually really sane
01:07:04 <augur> coppro: where's here?
01:07:20 <coppro> Canada
01:07:32 <augur> ah well
01:07:34 <augur> canada
01:07:38 <augur> you can smoke pot in the streets
01:07:40 <augur> so
01:07:47 <augur> who cares about your copyright legislation
01:08:17 <coppro> we do
01:08:25 <coppro> (we = people who care)
01:10:00 <augur> :P
01:10:07 <augur> go smoke a joint on the streets, you damn hippies
01:10:10 <coppro> moral rights got expanded to performances (note: moral rights are epic)
01:10:17 <augur> oh look at me im just walking around in public with POT
01:10:42 <coppro> lol
01:10:45 <coppro> it's not legal
01:10:54 <coppro> people do it anyways, but it isn't legal
01:11:08 <augur> its not legal, but the cops dont do shit
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01:12:46 <coppro> also, the bill /legalizes/ non-commercial use of copyrighted works in other copyrighted works
01:12:58 <coppro> so things like mashups are legal if non-commercial
01:13:13 <augur> awesome
01:13:30 <augur> basically it puts a CC NC on everything
01:14:52 <coppro> there are restrictions though; primarily it can't negatively affect the commercial activity or viability of the original
01:15:05 <coppro> also attribution
01:15:22 <coppro> ha - Michael Geist called it the YouTube right
01:17:03 <coppro> statutory damages are lowered for non-commercial infringement, that's good
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01:30:00 <coppro> hmm... actually, the digital locks provisions aren't as bad as when I looked originally
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03:32:10 <coppro> esolang was just linked in #math
03:32:22 <pikhq> Orly?
03:32:44 <lament> by me of all people
03:32:55 <lament> lament the tireless promoter
03:33:21 <lament> i also wrote that article i linked to :D
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04:18:09 <coppro> what's the mathematica to express a function in terms of a single variable?
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07:53:54 <jabb> !!
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08:18:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Not graue?
08:18:28 <lament> gruaue
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08:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
08:24:58 <oerjan> 'lo
08:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Lo!
08:26:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: graue doesn't really come here nowadays, i cannot recall seeing him for years
08:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> And is he the only person with keys to the wiki?
08:28:14 <oerjan> yes
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08:29:05 <oerjan> he _does_ respond to emails, however, at least last time someone tried
08:30:31 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with wiki?
08:31:35 <oerjan> nothing new that i can see
08:32:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there are also administrators, ais523 and keymaker
08:32:40 <oerjan> but their powers are limited
08:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, I know.
08:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> So no even any other bureaucrats?
08:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> s/no/not/
08:34:55 <oerjan> anarchy or death, i say
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10:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oktolol: Surely octo?
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10:30:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah: I have not seen you before.
10:31:23 <Slereah> Strange, since I've been here for 3 years or so
10:32:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I am bad at noticing, then.
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11:24:22 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato!
11:24:40 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover!
11:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato!!
11:24:57 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover!!!
11:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato!!!11!!
11:25:30 <hiato> Ah well, was hoping for a fibonacci sequence there
11:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato!!!!!
11:26:00 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover!!!!!!!!
11:26:18 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:26:23 <Deewiant> \o/
11:26:23 <myndzi> |
11:26:23 <myndzi> >\
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11:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato?????????????????????
11:27:43 <hiato> You crashed my IRC cliet. It couldn't take more than 13 !'s before it overflowed
11:27:49 <hiato> :P
11:28:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence the ?s.
11:28:30 <hiato> heh
11:28:49 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover ?????????????????????????????
11:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽
11:30:48 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡
11:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿
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11:34:07 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover:؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
11:34:16 <hiato> (took a while to find)
11:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I will not start this again. I will not start this ag... dammit!
11:35:16 <hiato> heh
11:35:54 <Deewiant> h͆̓͌̉ͬ͏̴̪̗͖̼̳͉͇́i̛ͮ̆̽ͮ͒̑̿̚͘҉͍͕̬̼̟̪a̵̲̖̠ͣ͆t̝ͩ͐́̀͟ͅo͆̂͐̓͆̃͋̈́̚͏͇̳̠̙̝̥̻
11:35:57 <Deewiant> ̩̝͔̩͔̄̊́̄͘͢P̠̠̩͓͍̹͇̟̺̋́͐ͭͥ͡h̬̬̭̙̗ͣͮ͐͒̓̆ͅá͔̤͖̭͈̓ͬ̊̃ͧ̈͢n̸͔̠͉͊ͧ̀̓̒̋̏̇̚t̷̢̙̙̯̩̟̝̱͚̻̓ͫo̹̘̥̼̥ͦ͛̕͟m̴͇ͭ̒͂͋̋̔̐̆_͎̭͉̰͍ͩͣͣ̈ͩ̈̉̚̚Hͫͩ҉̰͇̦̳̭͍͎̜͝͡ǫ̷̣̮̘̥̖͓͖͚̥̾͌̆ͨͯ͆͐͗̊͟ö̡̪̠̞͇͑͂͡v̵͋ͩ̆̈ͯ҉͔̜̞̯̮̫̙̻́e̦̟̦͈̘̯̦ͪ̍̓̃ͬ͑ͯ̎̌r
11:36:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I'm willing to bet that you didn't hand-assemble those diacritics.
11:37:30 <Deewiant> Reasonable assumption
11:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> So how did you do them?
11:38:42 <Deewiant> I googled zalgofier and found what I was looking for
11:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> D͓͓̝͚̟̗̈́̏͋̏̈́ͯͭ̕ę̸̢̟̗̩ͦ͛͗̿̈ͫ̑̅̏ͣ̉ͨ͂̆ͩ̔͛͟͝ė̢̡̤̯̠͓̯̪̫̭̦͙̗͛͂̃͐̿͛̽ͣͣ͂̄͊ͬ̈́ͩ͠w͊ͬ̽̉̈́̿́̄ͮ͊̏͟҉̯̞̮̻̤̥̺͟i̶̜͎͈̟͈̘̞͖͔̬̙̘̥̣͉̥̭̠̪̾ͦͥ̒͂ͦͤ̓̐̒ͧ͂͗ͥ̓ͮ́͟a̅ͭͨ̊͢҉̢̡͎̩̭̞̫͙̗̳͝n̴̸̙̹̘̪̬̫̖͙̯̱̝͍͎̦͕͓ͮ̆́ͯͩ͘͝t͋̿͌̍̈́͋ͩ̍̂̓͌́͊ͣͭ́҉̦͔̞̥͖͔̟͙͈̠̻̭̹͡ͅ
11:40:12 <hiato> Hmmm
11:41:24 <Deewiant> Too bad neither my client nor gvim can display it properly
11:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vim? You sicken me.
11:45:39 <Deewiant> We had that discussion around 19 hours ago
11:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Aww, I missed the flame way.
11:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> s/way/war/
11:46:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, Zalgo has made this file unopenable in Firefox.
11:47:46 <Deewiant> Yes; I would guess that's because of the line splitting that happened to me
11:54:49 <MizardX> Heh. Firefox was the only program able to render Zalgofied text.
11:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Pidgin can do it too.
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12:40:57 <cheater99> is there a programming language which uses chinese for its source?
12:41:08 <cheater99> because that would be, like, pretty damn cool.
12:44:32 <Quadrescence> Is there such thing as unicode?
12:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> BLAARGH, 3D APPS ARE DRIVING ME INSANE!
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13:02:51 <cheater99> i want a 3d script
13:02:53 <cheater99> that would be cool
13:02:57 <cheater99> putting letters in 3d!
13:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd need to be 4D to make proper use of it, though.
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13:49:09 <oktolol> "<Phantom_Hoover> oktolol: Surely octo?" <<< no
13:49:17 <oktolol> that would make no sense
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14:15:18 <CakeProphet> howdy
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15:45:08 <AnMaster> hi
15:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> hi
15:48:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hie!
15:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, have I expressed my desire to murder whoever created the SQA's computing course yet?
15:50:39 <AnMaster> SQA?
15:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Scottish Qualifications Authority.
15:51:54 <AnMaster> ah
15:52:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, is this university level?
15:52:13 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
15:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Further information is classified.
15:52:50 <uorygl> Hm, neither Norway nor Iceland is in the EU?
15:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope.
15:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Iceland isn't really in Europe in the first place, though.
15:53:32 <Deewiant> Where is it if not in Europe
15:53:51 <uorygl> Near Europe.
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15:56:12 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC geologically it's on the boundary between America and Europe.
16:19:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or should there be an easy way to view transparent images on a black background?
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16:56:07 <oklopol> for every set containing sets there is a set containing exactly the sets contained by the sets in that set
17:02:10 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
17:07:29 <oklopol> for every set there's a set contained in that set that doesn't contain any set contained in the set and no sets of whose are contained in the set
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17:24:35 <oklopol> well?
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18:06:10 * Phantom_Hoover notices that spaces don't seem to matter in C in anything other than type declarations.
18:07:06 <oklopol> "Helloworld!"
18:07:08 * AnMaster needs ais...
18:07:42 <AnMaster> I'm trying to work out the semantics of "extern const note_t volatile * dsound_next_note;"
18:07:55 <AnMaster> what does volatile apply to here
18:08:34 <AnMaster> const would be applied to the data it points to. But volatile?
18:09:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: volatile means that it should always be directly written to memory right away, instead of floating around loaded in a register when next it's convenient.
18:09:20 <pikhq> Most useful for things like hardware buffers.
18:09:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, the pointer or the data pointed to?
18:09:29 <pikhq> Erm.
18:09:32 <pikhq> s/when/until/
18:09:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is the question
18:09:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh. I think the data pointed to?
18:09:47 <AnMaster> ah
18:09:51 * pikhq googles
18:09:52 <AnMaster> I know what volatile in general means of course
18:09:58 <AnMaster> the issue was where it applied in this case
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18:10:20 <oklopol> pikhq doesn't know everything about C?
18:10:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, it wouldn't be "directly written" it would be "directly read" in this case, since it is const you really aren't supposed to write to it
18:10:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, nor do I. But I'm rather new to embedded C programming
18:10:39 <AnMaster> which this is
18:10:49 <pikhq> Yes, to say that the object pointed to is volatile should be at the left side of *, and the pointer itself to the right.
18:10:52 <pikhq> Just like const.
18:10:59 <AnMaster> right
18:11:03 <pikhq> oklopol: This is one of the few things I *don't* have fully embedded in my head. :)
18:11:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, at least it isn't function pointers. That is one thorny bit in C :)
18:11:22 <oklopol> pikhq: dear god...
18:11:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Argh that gives me such *massive* headaches.
18:11:47 <oklopol> let's see if i'd known the answer...
18:11:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, a volatile function pointer, sounds fun ;)
18:12:28 <oklopol> i wouldn't thought "* volatile" means * is volatile, and "volatile *" means pointer to volatile object
18:12:35 <oklopol> now let's see the answer
18:12:46 <oklopol> yay
18:13:09 <AnMaster> extern volatile unsigned char AD_C_H; <-- fun thing, this variable is not in any C file, just this header file. It is however in the linker script.
18:13:11 <AnMaster> hehe
18:13:16 <oklopol> i usually filter out the content with subjects like this, but i realized i have actually coded in c
18:13:23 <AnMaster> anyone know where GNU ld linker script syntax is documented?
18:13:38 <AnMaster> preferably not info pages, I treat that as last resort
18:13:43 <oklopol> "anyone know where baoiuhbeorijgeaorigjeag?"
18:13:57 <oklopol> see the world through my eyes
18:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Is ':' used for anything important in C?
18:13:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, where else should I ask than in here?
18:14:10 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: x ? y : z; foo: goto foo;
18:14:10 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm not saying you shouldn't ask here
18:14:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a ? b : c;
18:14:17 <Deewiant> case 4: break;
18:14:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also labels.
18:14:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, as Deewiant said
18:14:24 <pikhq> And cases in a switch statement.
18:14:28 <oklopol> i'm just saying you shouldn't ask me :P
18:14:29 <AnMaster> and that as well
18:14:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, I didn't highlight you?
18:14:47 <oklopol> AnMaster: i didn't say you did
18:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> So what symbol could you use to indicate type?
18:14:50 <AnMaster> ah okay
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18:16:42 <Deewiant> :: would work
18:38:56 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> Is it turing-complete?
18:38:56 <Sgeo_> <mindeavor> given that events can be reduced to function calls, I would say yes
18:38:56 <Sgeo_> <mindeavor> logically reduced, anyway
18:39:26 <oklopol> what does that mean
18:39:41 <Sgeo_> oklopol, ##nomic
18:39:45 <Sgeo_> http://lomic.info/
18:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, so int::main(){printf("helloworld");return(0);}
18:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> A spaceless program.
18:50:36 <Deewiant> Omit the "int::" and you have it in plain C.
18:51:05 <Deewiant> (Except that it's invalid since you're calling printf without a prototype)
18:52:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Prototypeless printf works on my system, but it gives a warning.
18:52:47 <Deewiant> It works on all systems AFAIK, but it's not valid.
18:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
18:53:16 <Deewiant> Maybe it is valid if you pass only one argument, though; not sure about that.
18:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> So...
18:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> main(){printf("Hello,%cworld!\n",10);}
18:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Spaceless hello world.
18:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The canonical version.
18:54:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also, undefined behavior.
18:54:48 <pikhq> main(){puts("Hello,\0xA0world!\n");} // I *think* this is valid?
18:55:20 <Phantom_Hoover> You could possibly use write().
18:55:24 <Deewiant> Yes: it'll print "Hello," since the string terminates there.
18:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> If you didn't care about portability.
18:55:42 <pikhq> Deewiant: No it doesn't.
18:55:48 <pikhq> Erm. \0
18:55:49 <Deewiant> Yes it does.
18:55:51 <pikhq> YES IT DOES GAH
18:55:55 <Phantom_Hoover> \xA0
18:55:57 <Deewiant> \040 would work, though.
18:56:12 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, that's what I want.
18:56:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: write() is perfectly portable.
18:56:29 <pikhq> It works on all POSIXen.
18:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Windows?
18:56:42 <Deewiant> Nope.
18:57:33 <pikhq> Not Windows without Cygwin.
18:58:07 <Deewiant> You could just use putchar, you know.
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19:20:24 <fungot> asdf
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19:20:31 <cheater99> herlo
19:20:35 <cheater99> how are you fungot
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19:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Googling "why <language> sucks" is quite fun.
19:49:01 * oklopol immediately had to google why go sucks
19:51:58 <DH____> it only mentions Go as Gene Ontology...
19:53:07 <FireFly> I tried Brainfuck, it wasn't that fun
19:55:51 <oklopol> it wasn't, you should try clue instead
19:55:55 <oklopol> *isn't
19:56:33 * FireFly considers not to try Self
19:56:36 <DH____> Seems people think that Perl, Ruby and Python suck roughly as much (similar number of results) but Perl sucks the most of the three...
19:56:42 <oklopol> i should work on clue at some point, there's an obvious fix i should make to the language, but that requires programming
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19:59:09 <DH____> 'No results found for "why Modula-2 sucks"'
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19:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Nerds don't get angry about esolangs.
20:00:33 <oklopol> i just get mad about non-esolangs, with esolangs it's okay if something trivial is hard to do, with other languages it feels like a waste of time
20:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> How about a language which emails some programmers kept in a basement and promises them food if they make a working program from your design notes.
20:01:47 <DH____> Like converting Str to Char in Delphi? I always found that hard...
20:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't you just index?
20:02:06 <DH____> You have to find the Ascii value...
20:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't programmed in Pascal for a year, but I recall strings being arrays of chars.
20:03:39 <DH____> Delphi I always had slight quirks - String was TString, a class of TObject...
20:04:56 <DH____> An there was no built-in function for converting between Integer and Real - you had to try and build your own using loopholes...
20:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Madness.
20:05:39 <DH____> I liked it though...
20:06:31 <DH____> I simulated Reals myself using LongInts and writing a string function to move the dp...
20:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you do OOP in C through a library?
20:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems like it should be possible.
20:07:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's how GTK works.
20:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Although hideous.
20:08:04 <pikhq> And yes, it is *hideous*.
20:08:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, someone actually *did* that?
20:08:16 <pikhq> Yes, it's called GObject.
20:08:23 <pikhq> Which is a major part of Glib.
20:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I am gobsmacked.
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20:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything in Lisp is basically a pointer, isn't it?
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20:35:24 <Sgeo_> Remind me to post this to alise when e gets back
20:35:25 <Sgeo_> http://shitampersand.com/
20:36:27 <Sgeo_> Although I don't get what's so bad about the keycaps one
20:38:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lambda_calculus#Proposed_criticism_of_lambda_calculus
20:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Rather funny.
20:42:07 <oklopol> Sgeo_: it says right there, apparently there's no such thing as ampersand key on keyboards except for mac and mac is so useless they should've left ampersand out of the font
20:42:30 <oklopol> i do have an ampersand key tho, who the fuck doesn't have an ampersand key?
20:42:48 <Sgeo_> But that's obviously untrue, but surely there must be some valid reason to criticize it
20:43:14 <oklopol> looks fine to me
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20:44:38 <Sgeo_> indeed
20:48:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol: Isn't it Shift-7?
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20:51:52 <DH____> or Shift-6 on older keyboards...
20:56:17 <jabb_> What do I do once I've designed and implemented an esoteric language?
20:56:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You tell everyone!
20:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Preferably *after* writing at least cat, and if possible "Hello, world!".
20:57:16 <jabb_> And it working, of course.
20:57:46 <jabb_> Cause I can write those based on my design, but I have yet to implement it :P
21:05:24 <Sgeo_> jabb_, there are some languages on the wiki that are impossible to implement
21:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, *theoretically*.
21:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> They're implementable once we discover FTL.
21:07:27 <Sgeo_> How does FTL lead to super-Turing-complete?
21:10:01 <Phantom_Hoover> FTL → violation of causality
21:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Violation of causality → TwoDucks interpreter.
21:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> TwoDucks interpreter → Super-Turing computation.
21:12:37 <pikhq> Super-Turing computation -> fuck it, we can has halting oracle.
21:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The cool thing is that I don't think it leads to inconsistency.
21:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Provided that it's only an oracle for Turing machines.
21:14:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Which it would be, because if it has the time travel instruction added, it can interfere with the oracle.
21:15:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, a machine with a halting oracle still possesses its own analogue to the halting problem.
21:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> If P(oracle) isn't evaluable by the oracle, there's no problem, right?
21:16:44 <pikhq> Right; that's how the halting problem manifests itself on Super-Turing machines.
21:17:39 <Sgeo_> TwoDucks is implementable if you ignore the ability to retrieve from the future
21:18:14 <jabb_> I write the ugliest Python code ever, I'm going back to C
21:19:27 <Sgeo_> Wait, the TwoDucks spec seems to conflict with the example
21:19:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It is unclear how it would work at all.
21:19:55 <Sgeo_> SEND v TO t; Assignment across time; assign the value of variable v (in the present) to the variable v as it existed at time t (in the past or future).
21:20:13 <Sgeo_> If that's correct, the first example should not cause a paradox afaict
21:20:29 <Sgeo_> Although that description also doesn't send v to t. It retrieves v from t
21:22:35 * Phantom_Hoover investigates
21:24:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_: Is that better?
21:25:05 <Sgeo_> Yes
21:25:19 <Sgeo_> Although now I see the original spec could be interpreted either way
21:26:21 <Sgeo_> Actually, it still looks ambiguous
21:26:30 <Sgeo_> Maybe my brain's not functioning properly
21:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> BE HAPPY.
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21:32:22 <cheater99> herlo
21:32:29 <cheater99> i have slept long.
21:35:53 <jabb_> Once I finish the interpreter I'll post it here.
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21:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, no-one seems to have posted the oracle yet,
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21:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, is the oracle I added to the TwoDucks article correct?
21:50:42 <Sgeo_> To me it looks ok, but I might be wrong
21:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It was written on the fly, but there's no reason it won't work.
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21:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> And if paradoxes don't destroy the universe we have a Turing oracle.
21:53:09 <Sgeo_> With a rewrite implementation, it would first claim it doens't halt, then if it halts, it changes it and pretends it always knew it halted
21:54:49 <cheater99> hahah i like this explanation
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21:58:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, MediaWiki's DPL code looks weird.
21:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> "listseparators =,¶:* [[%PAGE%¦%PAGE%]], "
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22:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
22:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I implemented the halting oracle in TwoDucks!
22:01:37 <oerjan> Ghost_Vacuum!
22:01:49 <oerjan> aha
22:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> So now we must invent FTL!
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22:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, need to suspend.
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22:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi, everybody!
22:15:26 <jabb_> Hi!
22:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the language like?
22:17:44 <jabb_> I can show you the design
22:18:04 <jabb_> It reminds me of assembly, except it has dynamic arrays
22:18:22 <jabb_> http://ideone.com/wuz3Q
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22:29:32 <uorygl> Hey, some of your Zalgo got stuck at the bottom of my terminal, below the bottom line.
22:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
22:46:21 <Sgeo_> Zalgo?
22:48:28 * Sgeo_ is officially declaring war on Gregor
22:50:11 <pikhq> ?
22:50:35 <Sgeo_> He hates pizza!
22:51:13 <pikhq> He *is* anosmic.
22:51:43 * Sgeo_ did not know that
22:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Anosmic?
22:53:57 * Phantom_Hoover Googles
22:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, that must suck.
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23:01:10 <pikhq> No tea for him.
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23:09:14 <jabb_> semantic analysis down!
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23:13:04 <Sgeo_> He has taste buds, I'd assume
23:13:18 <Sgeo_> Not that those are particularly useful, admittedly
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23:15:42 <pikhq> Yes, but tea sucks ass without olfactation apparently.
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23:30:14 <Sgeo_> Have we ever learned why he can't smell?
23:43:34 <oerjan> he's built upside down, so his nose runs rather than smells. his feet on the other hand...
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00:17:00 <jamesstanley> solved problem 1 of project euler in brainfuck :D (ok, ok, it needs a weird brainfuck with at least 18-bit wide cells and number i/o instead of character i/o)
00:25:47 <jamesstanley> http://aw.eso.me.uk/p/?show=f4b3bfce0
00:25:50 <jamesstanley> good night guys
00:26:09 <ArcticDeath> night
00:26:44 <jamesstanley> also i just noticed that the 4th line of the loop for 3's can be shortened
00:26:46 <jamesstanley> but anyway...
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00:32:13 <Sgeo_> jamesstanley, given 8-bit BF, you can um, simulate 8^2n bit BF easily
00:32:15 <Sgeo_> iirc
00:33:45 <pikhq> And itoa isn't hard to do.
00:34:42 <Sgeo_> itoa?
00:34:47 <Sgeo_> int to string?
00:36:49 <pikhq> Yuh.
00:37:00 <pikhq> So he could output numbers.
00:39:31 <Sgeo_> What about inputting numbers?
00:41:00 * Sgeo_ starts thinking about transformations of BF code and order in which such are applied
00:42:10 <pikhq> Sgeo_: That's a trivial matter of parsing.
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01:29:23 <zzo38> I found out how to fix the game_id so that it matched of the filename of the module: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/ruleset/ Now you must rename each file, otherwise it won't work!!!!
01:29:28 <zzo38> !!!!!!!!!!!
01:30:26 <zzo38> I also added in a Interactive Exec command, so that you can enter a Python code at run-time. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/plugin/extra_commands.py
01:31:49 <zzo38> Now I invented the idea for HighForth with is like Forth but with high-level functions and it can be used with other high-level functions such as JavaScript, Python, etc.
01:31:58 <zzo38> An example code is: : 2+ 2 + ;
01:32:15 <zzo38> Which can also be written as: [[ 2 + ]] CONSTANT `2+
01:32:41 <zzo38> Or: NULL DATA-OPEN 2 L, `+ , DATA-CLOSE COMPILE CONSTANT `2+
01:33:08 <zzo38> Or: 2 `+ 1 CURRY CONSTANT `2+
01:33:22 <zzo38> Or even a bunch of other ways.
01:36:15 <zzo38> Or: 2 1[[ + ]] CONSTANT `2+
01:36:26 <zzo38> Or: 2 1 S[[ + ]] CONSTANT `2+
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02:33:43 <zzo38> This is how the simple IRC log format can be written: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL
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03:21:15 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/BalMusetteNocturne-wipp1.mp3 Gregor attempts to play two musical instruments at once and records it poorly!
03:21:31 <Gregor> Gregor accidentally bolds things!
03:22:03 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRv8gnBMiWM
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03:24:55 <pikhq> Gregor also uses mp3 for once!
03:24:57 <pikhq> The horror!
03:25:14 <Gregor> I made it ogg, but the first person I sent it to I knew wouldn't be able to play a .ogg :P
03:25:30 <pikhq> Ah.
03:28:41 <Gregor> I see you have no opinion on the music itself :P
03:29:05 <pikhq> I've not listened yet.
03:29:10 <pikhq> :P