←2010-06 2010-07 2010-08→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:30:24 <Ilari> Heh... From wisdom of crowds stuff: Task 1k random people to develop new nutrional guidelines and then do study of what those do to health. Wheither one would or would not want to see that depends on relative priorities of caring for others vs. how much one wants to see train wrecks... :-)
00:33:43 <Ilari> Because those recomendations would probably be total garbage (difficult to say better or worse than current official ones)...
00:39:11 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with current guidelines?
00:40:46 <Ilari> Some would say 'too much carbohydrates', but I won't...
00:43:10 <Ilari> Worst part: They are almost impossible to follow without snacking on garbage...
00:46:15 <Ilari> Also that the recomendations do not seem to be based on reality...
00:47:25 <Ilari> Did you know that US nutrional recomendations are published by USDA (agriculture) and not by HHS (Health)?
00:49:05 <Ilari> (well, latest ones are in co-operation with HHS, but one can still tell where the priorities lie...)
00:49:45 <pikhq> The old recommendations were, what, 11 servings of grains each day?
00:50:19 <Ilari> The really difficult questions: What causes metabolic syndrome? There are some suspect causes, some known not to be cause. But no unified model.
00:50:31 <pikhq> Yup, 6-11 servings.
00:51:19 <pikhq> I cannot fathom eating that much grain.
00:52:22 <pikhq> "Eat 5 times as much grain as meat, poultry, fish, beans, eggs, or nuts!"
00:53:08 <pikhq> Hmm. What was it, 1 slice of bread = serving? "Eat a loaf of bread each day!"
00:53:36 <Ilari> Fun "paradoxes" ("paradox" in food & health really means "we have the wrong model"): Whole milk is less fattening than skim milk. Epidemilogical studies pick association, animal studies pick causation.
00:54:49 <Ilari> Yeah, you need to eat lots of grains, since grains are nutrient-poor (that's for white grains, whole grains can be even worse).
00:55:41 <pikhq> It's also comical that they stuck pretty much everything with protein together...
00:56:05 <pikhq> Because apparently tofu and a steak are nutritionally equivalent.
00:57:43 <Ilari> Fun... Its impossible to satisfy both nutrional guidelines and what I think are healty macronutrient ratios (based on what has been observed in hunter-gatherers). Actually, only fundamental conflict is in saturated fat sector...
00:58:24 <pikhq> Not to say that the average US diet is any saner, but the government recommendations are fucking nuts.
00:58:34 <Ilari> Tofu. Yuck.
00:58:44 <Ilari> (and I didn't refer to its taste).
00:58:49 <pikhq> "Now, eat a loaf of bread, but heaven forbid that you eat more than two pieces of fruit a day."
00:59:19 <pikhq> Tofu is not bad when prepared well. (which it almost never is on this continent)
01:00:27 <pikhq> (flavor-wise, that is. Nutritionally, you're looking at protein and not much else.)
01:00:31 <Ilari> Errr... Weren't fruits the second overhyped food group? Those tend to be quite high in sugar (of the apparently harmful kind)...
01:00:46 <pikhq> They said "2 a day".
01:01:16 <pikhq> Same as meats. And dairy products.
01:01:27 <pikhq> Vegetables were 3-5 a day.
01:01:55 <pikhq> They also said "use sparingly" on... All fats. *All* fats.
01:02:16 <Ilari> Oh, at least new recomendations have all sugar <10E%. Here sugar is <25E% (insane).
01:02:32 <Ilari> What's serving in dairy products?
01:03:16 <pikhq> 1 cup of milk. (the measurement "cup")
01:05:12 <Ilari> Ah, I would exceed that by quite a margin... :-)
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01:07:10 <Ilari> Meats are good proein sources...
01:11:43 <Ilari> Where does that fear of cholesterol come from? Not even Keys (who IIRC started the whole 'saturated fat is bad'/'high cholesterol causes heart disease' crock) thought that dietary colesterol is important (unless you happen to be rabbit or hamster)... :-/
01:18:56 <Ilari> Heh... One (legendary) doctor had 4 patients that wanted to gain weight. So he had them drink 100g of olive oil a day... Didn't work...
01:21:44 <Ilari> One with wrong model of things would call this "paradox"... :-)
01:23:58 <pineapple> http://bash.org/?925050
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01:47:10 <Sgeo_> Ilari, what makes you qualified to talk about nutrition, and others unqualified? Just asking..
01:49:30 <pikhq> Knuth has proposed a successor to TeX.
01:49:34 <pikhq> The syntax is XML.
01:49:39 <coppro> reportedly
01:49:52 <pikhq> WHAT THE HELL
01:49:52 <Ilari> Not that I'm qualified... There are others way more qualified than me. But there are also others (includin "experts") that are way less qualified.
01:50:11 <pikhq> XML is NOT a human-usable syntax.
01:50:15 <coppro> pikhq: Obviously it should be full SML
01:50:20 <coppro> neither is pure TeX
01:50:27 <pikhq> TeX is more so than XML.
01:50:38 <pikhq> Which is not to say that it's very usable, but... Ugh.
01:55:56 <coppro> okay, it's pretty obvious by now that was a joke
01:56:28 <pikhq> Yes.
01:56:33 <pikhq> Thank God.
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02:09:16 <coppro> is there some website where you can bet on how far Knuth will get on TAOCP before he croaks?
02:09:38 <coppro> it's quick on the way to being the greatest unfinished work of computer science
02:10:16 <pikhq> And still the greatest work.
02:11:07 <coppro> (I mean, yes, it is currently the greatest unfinished work, but you know what I mean)
02:13:18 <oerjan> 11:43:05 <oklopol> i wish oerjan was here
02:13:18 <oerjan> 11:43:31 <oklopol> are you talking about receiving head
02:13:22 <oerjan> YOU DON'T SAY
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02:26:28 <coppro> I like wyde
02:27:12 <oerjan> wyde is better than tyght
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03:08:30 <coppro> Does sideways add serve any direct arithmetic use or something?
03:09:21 <oerjan> what's sideways add?
03:10:00 <coppro> an instruction on some architectures that takes two operands; the result has each bit set iff the first operand had it set and the second did not
03:10:33 <oerjan> so AND NOT, really?
03:10:51 <pikhq> Half AND NOOT
03:10:52 <coppro> err, sorry
03:10:55 <coppro> it's not that
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03:11:09 <coppro> it's count the number of bits that meet those conditions
03:11:28 <oerjan> pikhq: er, i feel a draft over my head
03:12:05 <coppro> in MMIX (the spec for which I'm reading), it could serve to count bits set because there's no direct operation for that (just put it against an all-0 second operatnd)
03:13:07 <pikhq> Uh, isn't that with 0x0 on the second operand the identity function?
03:13:39 <coppro> like I said; I misspoke earlier
03:13:45 <coppro> it's a bit-counting instruction
03:13:56 <coppro> AND NOT against 0 is the identity operation, yes
03:14:03 <coppro> it's "count the bits in X AND NOT Y"
03:15:21 * oerjan doesn't know why one would want that particular combination often enough not to just construct it from simpler parts
03:16:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Blame Knuth.
03:16:15 <oerjan> oh?
03:16:25 <pikhq> His architecture.
03:16:28 <coppro> it's not just Knuth; I researched it and it's existed physically before
03:17:07 <oerjan> well, must be useful then :D
03:17:14 <pikhq> Well, he *did* try to make MMIX a CPU ISA that one could actually use.
03:17:35 <coppro> I imagine he has some use in mind
03:18:19 <oerjan> http://cryptome.org/jya/sadd.htm
03:18:36 <coppro> yeah, saw that
03:18:42 <oerjan> so it's _very_ old
03:20:28 <oerjan> hm that page so far doesn't really imply that it did any AND NOT stuff before counting
03:25:31 <coppro> whoa, the matrix operations are cool
03:27:02 <oerjan> that string search use of sideways add looks interesting
03:27:12 <oerjan> (but uses AND, not AND NOT)
03:29:03 <Ilari> Population count unit... Geez...
03:29:51 <Ilari> Very exotic instruction and optimized to ridiculous degree...
03:32:00 <Ilari> Haha: "Seriously, the milk section includes transparent cheese. Is that a new Kraft product?".
03:33:04 <pikhq> WTF?
03:33:40 <Ilari> (referring to proposed 2010 dietary guidelines).
03:39:02 <coppro> I like how Knuth's fake architecture is designed with several instructions that no one would really want on a computer used only for educational purposes
03:41:14 <pikhq> It's not intended only for educational purposes.
03:41:43 <pikhq> Well, it is, but it's intended to be real-world usable so you actually learn something other than a bizarre educational subset of things.
03:41:59 <coppro> well, yes
03:42:09 <coppro> but one instruction is described as "reserved for operating systems only"
03:42:17 <pikhq> Very nice touch.
03:42:38 <coppro> "details are in MMIXware", which is not part of TAOCP
03:43:31 <Sgeo_> Fake architecture?
03:45:52 <coppro> Sgeo_: in that it has no hardware implementations
03:46:30 * Sgeo_ wants to see an arcitecture that can only be simulated
03:46:36 <pikhq> Though it certainly could.
03:46:48 <pikhq> It's actually a quite reasonable RISC architecture.
03:47:06 <pikhq> From Knuth and the guys responsible MIPS and Alpha.
03:47:43 <coppro> yeah, he basically designed it so that you could put Linux on it
03:47:45 <coppro> nice: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/diamondsigns/CP6.html
03:48:00 <coppro> (note: I don't mean that he actually made that a design goal, merely that it is sufficiently comprehensive to allow that)
03:48:45 <pikhq> In other words: he didn't want it to be a toy.
03:49:08 <coppro> yeah (unlike MIX)
03:49:14 <coppro> it even has compare-and-swap
03:50:28 <Ilari> Well, Compare-and-swap is absolute basic operation of multi-CPU operation.
03:51:04 <Ilari> IIRC, from that one can construct all manner of atomic operations and all basic multithread synchroninzation primitives.
03:51:37 <coppro> yes
03:51:42 <Ilari> What kind of odd instructions?
03:52:02 <coppro> what?
03:52:40 <Ilari> coppro: What instructions no one would really want on real computer?
03:52:40 <oerjan> DIVIDE-AND-CONQUER
03:52:52 <oerjan> KILL-THEN-ASK (for handling zombie processes)
03:53:07 <coppro> Ilari: uh, the sideways add is a bit weird
03:53:26 <oerjan> SIDE-SPLIT
03:53:43 <Ilari> coppro: Sideways add? You mean population count?
03:54:05 <coppro> Ilari: it is defined of "the number of bits that are 1 in $Y and 0 in $Z"
03:54:39 <Ilari> Well, that's somewhat odd.
03:55:06 <Ilari> Well, one can use that as population count. Especially if MMIX has RISC-style zero register.
03:56:00 <coppro> Every operation has a form taking a constant as the third operand $Z, so yes, you can use it against 0 in one instruction
03:56:55 <coppro> also, internal interrupts involve jumps to low addresses
03:57:07 <coppro> (internal being within a program; not an OS-level interrupt)
03:57:13 <Ilari> No IDTR?
03:57:18 <coppro> IDTR?
03:57:41 <Ilari> What kind of interrupts there are within programs?
03:58:33 <coppro> conditions like integer overflow, divide by zero, or the like. Whether they are interrupts or just set flags is controllable, but if they are set as interrupts they all jump into the first few bytes of memory
03:58:55 <coppro> also, the TRIP instruction, which causes a manual interrupt, seems weird
03:59:10 <coppro> for starters, it involves a jump to address 0
03:59:36 <coppro> (TRAP, which is an external interrupt, is by contrast quite useful and normal)
03:59:42 <Ilari> I would want first page not to be mapped...
03:59:54 <pikhq> Yeah well screw you.
04:00:14 <coppro> Ilari: it does not have paging AFAICT
04:00:31 <pikhq> coppro: It does, but you're running in userspace so YOU CAN'T TELL.
04:00:41 <coppro> pikhq: Well, a kernel could implement it on top of the OS
04:00:45 <coppro> err
04:00:48 <coppro> on top of the architecture
04:00:52 <coppro> but there's no architecture support
04:01:30 <pikhq> Someone made an MMIX simulator that ran unhosted code for the sole purpose of running Linux on it.
04:01:35 <pikhq> That sucker's got virtual memory.
04:01:59 <coppro> hmm... actually, it may
04:02:05 <coppro> there are some features left undescribed
04:02:08 <coppro> I don't think so though
04:02:13 <coppro> there isn't enough room in the instruction table
04:03:24 <coppro> oh wait, yes it does
04:03:31 <coppro> stop hiding features in sideways comments, Knuth!
04:03:31 <Ilari> What all is segment descriptor in X86 is pretty crazy. There are ordinary code and data segments, but there's also TSSes, task gates, interrupt gates, exception gates, LDTs, etc...
04:03:55 <coppro> x86 is insane
04:04:07 <coppro> there's a reason CISCs are going out of styles
04:04:23 <Ilari> TSSes: Hardware-assisted task swapping...
04:04:32 <coppro> hahaha
04:04:34 <pikhq> Arguably, CISC is dead outside of 8-bit and 16-bit CPUs.
04:05:06 <pikhq> After all, modern x86 implementations are not CISC. They are RISC chips running a very fast x86 emulator.
04:05:07 <coppro> the no-op for MMIX is entitled "SWYM", or "sympathize with your machinery"
04:05:20 <Ilari> Yes, LDT is segment descriptor you stick into GDT. And some segment selectors reference entries in LDT.
04:06:06 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, you know things suck when...
04:07:02 <Ilari> Oh, and of course call gates.
04:08:45 <coppro> I'd have to look into MMIXware to see if TRIP has a real use
04:17:32 <Ilari> Oh, and x86 has expand-down segments, where segment limit is minimum address and not maximum address. As for why Linux/x86 doesn't set kernel CS to be expand-down: Expand-down code segments are not supported!
04:20:16 <pikhq> Oh, x86's segmentation.
04:20:33 <pikhq> If you were crazy enough, you could use it *and* paging for virtual memory.
04:20:35 * pikhq shudders
04:24:25 <Ilari> System segment types: TSS (16 and 32 bit, available and busy variants of course), Call gates, Interrupt gates and trap gates (all with 16- and 32-bit variants).
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06:01:24 <Gregor> "If you value your independence and creativity, you should be aware that Apple doesn't. Take your computing elsewhere." -- FSF
06:02:03 <coppro> maybe if we get the FSF and Apple into a major battle, they'll destroy each other and the world will be a better place
06:02:54 <lifthrasiir> coppro, are you sure that equivalent organizations (or company or so) won't arise after them? ;)
06:03:15 <coppro> lifthrasiir: there will be a Calm
06:03:25 <lifthrasiir> great.
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06:19:13 <pikhq> coppro: So, you are proposing the plot of FFX as a solution.
06:19:34 <coppro> pikhq: yeah
06:19:42 <coppro> seems good to me!
06:20:49 <pikhq> All fun and games until some punk decides to kill off everything to spare people pain.
06:21:37 <coppro> uh, I think you're confusing games
06:22:21 <pikhq> Seymour?
06:22:30 <pikhq> Ending the spiral of death?
06:23:05 <coppro> oh sure. I thought you were talking about Yu Yevon
06:23:25 <pikhq> Nah, Yu Yevon's a different kind of crazy.
06:23:51 <pikhq> All fun and games until some punk decides to turn people in statues to run a massive summoning.
06:23:56 <pikhq> There, happy no?
06:23:58 <pikhq> Now?
06:24:26 <coppro> and kill off everything
06:24:29 <coppro> there, now I'm happy
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07:01:02 <coppro> Happy Canada Day!
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07:55:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Knuth announced yet?
07:56:01 <fizzie> The twitterverse seems to say that it was a jokey thing "announcing" TeX's successor with XML syntax.
07:56:22 <coppro> iTeX
07:57:10 <fizzie> And then something about ringing a bell when you say the name.
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07:57:56 <fizzie> It ended up in Wikipedia for ~2 hours, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Itex&oldid=371122107
07:58:00 <fizzie> Then again, everything does.
07:58:33 <coppro> it features 3-d printing and VP8
07:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> BORING.
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08:02:58 <fizzie> Gah, if I tell mutt to search for a string in message bodies on this 1776-email IMAP inbox, it will fetch all message bodies. Wasn't there some sort of search functionality in IMAP? (Come to think of it, it's probably just that it wouldn't support regexps that way.)
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08:05:43 <fizzie> (And I didn't even find what I was looking for.)
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08:07:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, so Knuth's announcement was a joke?
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08:08:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: So it appears.
08:08:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "Don Knuth" sounds strange.
08:08:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ...?
08:08:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
08:08:55 <augur> he didnt actually make an announcement, did he
08:09:11 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, yes.
08:09:17 <augur> yes what
08:09:43 <fizzie> He made a joke at the end of a conference; it's not so uncommon, though usually the jokes don't come with this much pre-excitement.
08:09:55 <augur> what was the joke?
08:10:24 <fizzie> That there'll be a TeX successor called iTeX with XML syntax. It's just a dozen comments backwards on this channel, you know.
08:10:35 <augur> haha
08:10:57 <augur> oh that knuth
08:11:12 <augur> hes a bit weird tho
08:11:32 <augur> i mean, hes quite smart and knowledgable, but at the same time he seems to have a weird view of how numbers work mathematicall
08:11:33 <augur> y
08:12:07 <AnMaster> ?
08:12:12 <AnMaster> how?
08:12:20 <augur> tho he might be a strict formalist, in that regard
08:13:20 <augur> well, in one of his books, he made some comments regarding natural numbers and integers and so on and so forth and i wrote him saying that mathematically speaking, these two things were identical in some relevant fashion
08:13:38 <augur> er, well, natural numbers/integers and reals
08:13:46 <AnMaster> eh?
08:13:46 <augur> basically involving the naturals/integers being a subset of the reals
08:13:51 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why one could possibly want an enum larger than an int
08:13:55 <AnMaster> well yes they are
08:14:14 <augur> and he replied that you'd have to define an equivalency between them in order to make such and such blah blah blah
08:14:30 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: With 16-bit ints, you might only have room for puny 65k named constants.
08:14:31 <AnMaster> no binary dollar for you :P
08:14:41 <augur> yeah, i was saddened
08:14:57 <Ilari> Heh... There's Damn Vulernable Linux... Linux distro stuffed with outdated software, exploitable software and ill-configured software... The list of default services is probably impressive.
08:15:01 <augur> especially that it wasn't a simple enough error
08:15:30 <augur> like, if it were an error that could be made by simply forgetting to copy some symbol or other, or whatever, ok sure fine whatever
08:15:40 <augur> whoops, typo, so to speak
08:15:52 <augur> but this was kind of crucial to the point he was making
08:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, this was from the x86-64 ABI spec; it uses 32-bit ints.
08:16:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Why would you want 4 billion named constants?
08:16:32 <fizzie> When you want to name each and every memory location with a descriptive name?
08:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, 64-bit ABI.
08:17:25 <fizzie> Yes, so you need more than 32 bits for it.
08:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Wouldn't the compiler die of overwork trying to keep track of them?
08:19:03 <fizzie> Well, if you have a limited amount of cases but they're represented by bit-patterns wider than int, maybe?
08:19:36 <fizzie> A 64-bit register with few flags up high, and you want the values in an enum so that you can say "blah | bleh" to get a proper value.
08:19:40 <fizzie> Or something like that.
08:19:59 <Deewiant> fungot: blah | bleh
08:20:00 <fungot> Deewiant: i guess i
08:20:20 <fizzie> After all, it's allowed for the values of enum constants to be non-arbitrary integers.
08:20:27 <fizzie> fungot: You guess you what?
08:20:28 <fungot> fizzie: something like that, change the environment properties/ colors/ positions once a while back he snagged a bit of plot creativity, they could be
08:20:35 <fizzie> "Aha."
08:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
08:22:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
08:23:27 <fizzie> Where do you have wider-than-int enums, though?
08:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it was in the x86-64 ABI spec.
08:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> C++ and some implementations of C permit enums larger than an int. The underlying
08:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> type is bumped to an unsigned int, long int or unsigned long int, in that order.
08:25:58 <coppro> Ilari: my first actions if I heard someone was running it: ssh root@box
08:27:32 <Ilari> coppro: You mean 'telnet box'? :->
08:27:56 <coppro> if that doesn't work, I'd try mysql
08:28:22 <Ilari> Actually, ssh might be better target, but there's no telling what they have used as in.telnetd (probably something really vulernable).
08:30:11 <Ilari> And not only vulernable, but misconfigured to create additional vulernabilities.
08:30:23 <Ilari> Oh, and the SSH probably has SSH1 enabled...
08:31:07 <coppro> yeah, but if root is passwordless or has a weak password, SSH wins (assuming it allows root logins at all, which is always a bad idea)
08:31:41 <Ilari> Hey, guess twice if it allows direct root logins? :-)
08:32:21 <coppro> does it?
08:32:44 <Ilari> Well, judging from goals, it very probably does.
08:34:07 <coppro> I could see an instructor running that and giving bonus marks for every different way someone students came up with to root it.
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11:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> AAGH the number 168 is stuck in my head and I don't know why.
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11:35:56 <AnMaster> hm I wonder if linux is smart enough when dealing with reading from software RAID1 that it uses the disk that happens to have the read head closest to what it needs to read?
11:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Where is software RAID1 handled?
11:38:00 <AnMaster> kernel
11:41:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or did you mean which command line tool you use to set it up?
11:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I meant kernel or userspace.
11:42:18 <AnMaster> right, kernel then
11:52:10 <fizzie> It sounds somewhat tricky to arrange it completely optimally; preferrably you'd start reading with the drive that has the least seek time to the target region, and then read in parallel from all drives as soon as they have reached the proper place.
11:53:10 <fizzie> I'm not even sure if you can get precise enough geometry information from disk controllers nowadays. And there's sector remapping and all that fluff.
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12:04:59 <AnMaster> hm true
12:11:05 <fizzie> From the "this howto is deprecated" Linux Software-RAID HOWTO, on the topic of RAID-1: "Read performance is good, especially if you have multiple readers or seek-intensive workloads. The RAID code employs a rather good read-balancing algorithm, that will simply let the disk whose heads are closest to the wanted disk position perform the read operation. Since seek operations are relatively expensive on modern disks (a seek time of 6 ms equals a read of 123 kB at
12:11:05 <fizzie> 20 MB/sec), picking the disk that will have the shortest seek time does actually give a noticeable performance improvement."
12:11:22 <fizzie> So at least at some point it has attempted to handle that cleverly.
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12:15:27 <fizzie> The same phraseology (with updated numbers: 8 ms, 640 kB at 80 MB/sec) appears in raid.wiki.kernel.org, but on the other hand in the "Performance" page the benchmarks don't show very much read-speed differences between non-raid and RAID-1 access. (The benchmarks look somewhat haphazard, though.)
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12:45:28 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
12:45:41 <oerjan> so it would appear
12:45:48 <oerjan> but can you _truly_ be sure?
12:46:26 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but for all I know you could just be an emergent phenomenon of the intenet itself.
12:46:35 <oerjan> <fizzie> That there'll be a TeX successor called iTeX with XML syntax. It's just a dozen comments backwards on this channel, you know.
12:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Which would explain why you are so elusive on Google.
12:47:35 <oerjan> the very name of that + the preannouncements would seem to imply knuth was deliberately making a joke on apple hype
12:48:00 <oerjan> well except apple doesn't make preannouncements, do they
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12:52:09 <fizzie> They just do strictly controlled leaks with both correct and incorrect information, to keep the hype going.
12:52:16 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: guesswork and speculation.)
12:53:25 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> AAGH the number 168 is stuck in my head and I don't know why. <-- it's your serial number, duh
12:53:46 <Phantom_Hoover> 168? Out of ~7 billion?
12:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel honoured.
12:54:16 <oerjan> no, out of 666
12:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I strongly suspect it's an SCP, but I really don't want to find out which.
12:56:42 <fizzie> Few more bits of trivia that Knuth said about iTeX: no escape sequences, menu-driven, speech-recognition something. (From a random tweet.)
12:56:53 <fizzie> Heh, "knuth announcement: 27th most popular search in the past hour."
12:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> 168 is an SCP, but not one I'd previously read about.
12:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Curiouser and curiouser.
12:57:34 <fizzie> http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?q=knuth+announcement
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13:53:17 <Mathnerd314> I was thinking about XML in TeX, sometime in the past year... I'm pretty certain it could work (use <document> instead of \begin{document}, for example)
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14:00:01 <cpressey> So I want to spider a site, but I also want to spider a version of it from a few years ago from www.archive.org.
14:00:22 <cpressey> I don't suppose a tool exists that does exactly that, so
14:00:43 <cpressey> Any suggestions for a spidering tool that is comfortably hackable?
14:02:14 <Mathnerd314> cpressey: yourself?
14:03:13 <cpressey> :/
14:05:46 <cpressey> wget -r plus some perl goo, it is, then.
14:07:44 <fizzie> Yes, there is already a XML syntax for TeX (TeXML). It's mostly intended for people who programmatically generate TeX code, though.
14:08:50 <fizzie> I don't have any clue how good/sensible it is.
14:10:09 <fizzie> It seems to do <env name="x"> instead of \begin{x} for example, so it's perhaps not that human-friendly to type directly.
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14:32:59 <cpressey> This Knuth thing is an April Fool's joke, right? Just 3 months late?
14:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> We think so.
14:35:07 <cpressey> Or nine months early, maybe.
14:37:27 <oerjan> presumably there's only one yearly tex conference...
14:37:53 <oerjan> top-level one, that is
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14:48:12 <cpressey> Hi ais523
14:48:19 <ais523> hi
14:48:31 <ais523> hmm, I proved both Reversible Brainfuck and DoFuck TC in my head last night
14:48:38 <ais523> although, as usual with proofs done mentally, there may be bugs
14:49:12 <cpressey> Indeed -- from the sound of it, Reversible Brainfuck would not be too hard to prove? Or is it weirder than its name suggests?
14:49:24 <cpressey> Not sure what I'm saying
14:49:30 <ais523> (they're both BF with different definitions of the [ command; DoFuck has it enter the loop unconditionally, Reversible Brainfuck has it enter the loop if the current cell /is/ 0, rather than if it /isn't/ 0)
14:49:33 <cpressey> Given how hard Burro was
14:49:57 <cpressey> I was thinking I might actually implement my idea for Goldbach... was making some notes last night
14:50:03 <ais523> it's not trivial to prove; the issue is trying to make sure you can enter a loop the good-old-fashioned BF way
14:50:07 <cpressey> It will turn out to be very un-exciting, though
14:50:10 <ais523> which requires somehow ignoring the value when you enter it
14:50:22 <cpressey> I see.
14:52:21 <cpressey> My Goldbach idea just degrades into "Loop over pairs of primes until you find two that sum to the next larger even number you need", and if you can't do that, you can't perform a top-level loop. So if the Goldbach conjecture is false, there is a limit to the number of useful iterations you can do.
14:52:45 <ais523> ha!
14:52:59 <cpressey> next larger even number -> first you have to goto -2, then -4, then -6 ... which all basicallly are gotos back to the first instruction of the program
14:53:07 <ais523> I remember asking bits of the mathematical community about the goldbach conjecture, though; they all believe it's true, just have no proof
14:53:11 <cpressey> Very contrived. :/
14:53:26 <cpressey> I have a hard time fantasizing about it *not* being true.
14:53:46 <cpressey> Would there be just one "non-Goldbach" even number?
14:53:49 <cpressey> There could be
14:54:00 <cpressey> Nothing would seem to imply there would be more than one, if there were one.
14:54:01 <ais523> arguably 2, but that doesn't count
14:58:17 <Sgeo_> Am I supposed to fall in love with Lua?
14:58:47 <ais523> Sgeo_: it's good for some things, not for others
14:58:55 <cpressey> Heh... catseye.tc's front page looks pretty spectacular in FF when the canvas is only 23-or-so pixels high
14:59:15 * Sgeo_ is thinking of rewriting some of the C# stuff in Lua so it can be easily unloaded, changed, and loaded without restarting the bot
14:59:42 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Never a good idea to fall in love with a language. It can only lead to hurt when the summer's over.
15:00:25 <cpressey> Seriously, Lua's OK. In many respects, for me, it beats both Python and Ruby.
15:01:08 <cpressey> In others, well, nothing's perfect.
15:02:02 <Sgeo_> In what ways is Lua imperfect?
15:02:40 <cpressey> Er, well. There is no "standard" way to do object-orientation. So, if you mix and match two libraries which use different styles, it can be ugly.
15:03:05 <cpressey> I also something think they went too far, when they merged dictionaries and arrays into one thing.
15:03:15 <cpressey> s/something/sometimes/
15:04:12 <cpressey> Most of my other gripes are about the implementation and things like availability of libraries, which aren't really core language issues.
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15:06:21 <cpressey> Where it beats Python: Lua doesn't make a distinction between attributes and dictionary entries. a['foo'] is the same as a.foo. The division in Python is artificial at this point, and in the code base I work on at least, extremely annoying.
15:06:55 <ais523> cpressey: JavaScript works like that too
15:07:07 <ais523> come to think of it, JS and Lua are surprisingly similar languages
15:07:26 <cpressey> Yes, JS is actually a lot better than I usually give it credit for. And yes, similar to Lua in many ways.
15:07:53 <ais523> JS has mostly been held back by being mostly trapped inside a web browser
15:08:35 <cpressey> Web browsers with generally lousy debugging/interaction capabilities, especially.
15:08:59 <cpressey> I think it's not a coincidence that much of the JS I write has the same feel as much of the Assembly I write.
15:09:07 <ais523> both Firebug and the Epiphany/Safari/Chrome web inspector are pretty good for debugging
15:09:31 <cpressey> Well yes, I didn't mean to imply such tools weren't available.
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19:58:16 <ghostwriter42> quick i need a someone to pick a *even* number between 50 and 100 that has two different digits!
20:00:04 <Sgeo_> 68
20:00:29 <ghostwriter42> interesting
20:00:35 <ghostwriter42> thank you
20:00:40 <Sgeo_> hm?
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20:00:59 <Sgeo_> Is 68 a common response or something?
20:01:29 <ghostwriter42> http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number"
20:02:17 <Sgeo_> ...
20:02:27 <ghostwriter42> i guess you win
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20:18:05 <impomatic> Hi :-)
20:20:13 <impomatic> Can anyone think of a cool name for a website specialising in programming games?
20:21:13 <coppro> no, but I am interested
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20:24:13 <impomatic> It's a shame programming.com, programming.net and programming.co.uk are wasted :-(
20:27:43 <coppro> proggames?
20:28:55 <ais523> impomatic: btw, there was a bit of movement on the BF Joust leaderboard recently
20:28:57 <ais523> so it isn't /quite/ dead
20:29:13 <impomatic> Thanks, I'll take a look :-)
20:32:38 * pikhq can has decent headphones! And stuff for curry, reubens, and such!
20:32:43 <pikhq> Glee!
20:32:53 <coppro> <3 Glee
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20:35:52 <pikhq> XD
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22:40:00 <ehirdiphone> Knuth?
22:40:15 <ehirdiphone> Announced what?
22:40:35 <ais523> good point, I haven't heard any followup on that
22:40:40 <ais523> I don't know, is the answer
22:40:47 <ais523> which surprises me, I thought it would have at least hit Slashdot
22:41:07 <ehirdiphone> T'was yesterday night, late.
22:41:13 <ehirdiphone> pikhq will know.
22:41:32 <ais523> just checked a search: it seems he was joking
22:41:45 <ais523> he announced an XML-based TeX, called iTex
22:41:47 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: It was a joke.
22:41:53 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Guess (stolen from Hacker News): a typo was found in a comment in METAFONT
22:42:00 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Bah! :P
22:42:29 <pikhq> iTeX features Unicode, XML syntax, 3D printing, stereophonic sound, and a menu-driven interface.
22:42:36 <ais523> only places the actual announcement seems to have hit are Twitter and ycombinator.com
22:42:54 <ehirdiphone> Yeah, Unicode in TeX. Hahaha, what a silly idea.
22:43:40 <ehirdiphone> Remind me to eat after leaving. I'm starving.
22:43:56 <ehirdiphone> Have to scavenge something from my room...
22:45:03 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Are filesystem drivers servers in HURD?
22:45:41 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yes.
22:45:58 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: what isn't?
22:46:25 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Quite a few hardware drivers.
22:46:42 <ehirdiphone> Mouse? Keyboard? Video card?
22:46:55 <pikhq> Mouse, keyboard, text console.
22:47:04 <ehirdiphone> Generic USB?
22:47:17 <pikhq> I think also the block devices.
22:47:26 <pikhq> No, it doesn't have USB.
22:47:33 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Ha! I am more modular than HURD.
22:47:39 <pikhq> Because Linux 2.2 didn't, and they use Linux 2.2 drivers.
22:47:49 <ehirdiphone> Plan n for some n is, rather.
22:48:11 <pikhq> Would take approximately 0 work to make them be in userspace.
22:48:16 <ehirdiphone> ps2/noises /dev/ps2/mouse
22:48:21 <cpressey> Re iTex: July Fools!
22:48:22 <ehirdiphone> *moused
22:48:31 <pikhq> As you can make a server for literally ANY FILE. :)
22:48:37 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: OTOH, it'd still be the HURD.
22:48:48 <pikhq> Yes, it would.
22:48:58 <ehirdiphone> Mine wouldn't be.
22:49:13 <ehirdiphone> Is /dev handled in kernel at all?
22:49:17 <ehirdiphone> In HURD.
22:49:55 <pikhq> No, the kernel does not even acknowledge the existence of a filesystem.
22:50:19 <ehirdiphone> It has /, though, yes? Just abstract.
22:50:26 <pikhq> No.
22:50:36 <pikhq> Mach provides message passing.
22:50:42 <ehirdiphone> So a server handles that.
22:50:47 <pikhq> Yes.
22:51:04 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Expand "kernel" a bit.
22:51:13 <ais523> if it's unaware of the existence of filesystems, is it technically a kernel?
22:51:20 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: The Mach microkernel that runs in kernelspace.
22:51:25 <ehirdiphone> I'm not asking about just Mach :P
22:51:33 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Yes
22:51:37 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: I meant
22:51:41 <ehirdiphone> For my questions
22:51:48 <ehirdiphone> Interpret it a bit looser
22:51:50 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Then it's hard to define what the kernel is. Everything else is daemons.
22:51:57 <ehirdiphone> Mm.
22:53:06 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Plan X will have a concept of / in the kernel, but only because the *whole OS* will be based on per-process namespaces.
22:53:23 <ais523> the kernel's / is a different / from everyone else's?
22:53:46 <ehirdiphone> ais523: In plan 9, every process has a different /
22:53:53 <ehirdiphone> its local namespace
22:54:01 <pikhq> Whereas in HURD, a "file" is nothing more than a name provided for a port of a server.
22:54:07 <ais523> there's a global / too, though
22:54:11 <ais523> so the things can actually communicate
22:54:24 <pikhq> And most of the actual POSIX abstractions are coming out of libhurd.
22:54:28 <ehirdiphone> ais523: E.g. The rio wm works by rebinding the /dev/screen of its children, for instance.
22:54:34 <ehirdiphone> ais523: No.
22:54:56 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, process 1's namespace but thats irrelevant.
22:55:17 <ehirdiphone> They communicats by inheriting files served by other processes.
22:55:30 <ais523> so if you reference, say, /home/alise, how does Plan 9 resolve that?
22:55:42 <cpressey> The kernel's the part that, when it crashes, you're fucked.
22:55:54 <ehirdiphone> ITYM /usr/alise
22:55:59 <pikhq> cpressey: Then that's Mach.
22:56:10 <ais523> ehirdiphone: right, I forgot how Plan 9 actively hates the FHS
22:56:13 <ais523> rather than just ignoring it
22:56:18 <ais523> cpressey: that's a good definition
22:56:19 <pikhq> And *maybe* the authentication daemon.
22:56:31 <AnMaster> cpressey, only works if you have an MMU and such
22:56:37 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Your shell's /usr/alise. The same as your login process's, prolly.
22:56:44 <pikhq> But really, that's only if you happen to not be running a subHurd.
22:56:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, on classic MacOS, any program could result in that
22:56:50 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Plan 9 very predates the FHS.
22:57:06 <pikhq> (one can run a virtual Hurd system by starting another instance of the daemons.)
22:58:00 <pikhq> ais523: Plan 9 also has absolutely no reason to acknowledge the FHS. It is very much not Unix.
22:58:26 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Well. It's the official successor to 10th Edition Unix.
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22:58:51 <ehirdiphone> But apart from that, yeah.
22:59:10 <ehirdiphone> ais523: /usr for users dates back to PDP unix.
22:59:15 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yes, and Windows is the official successor to DOS, but that doesn't make it DOS.
22:59:18 <ehirdiphone> ais523: "bin" was a user.
22:59:20 <pikhq> :)
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22:59:40 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You should know; you tried them out.
22:59:50 <nooga> are there some 'reverse parsers' for generating random expressions that match specified syntax?
22:59:54 <ais523> I didn't notice
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23:00:06 <nooga> because i wrote one and i don't know if it's worth releasing
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23:00:21 <alisephone> nooga: release it
23:00:27 <alisephone> sounds v. Interesting
23:00:33 <nooga> okay
23:00:37 <alisephone> Why are you cool all of a sudden?
23:00:43 <nooga> one person is enough :D
23:01:00 <alisephone> wat
23:01:01 <ais523> I wrote one for ICA a whie back because I needed testcases
23:01:02 <nooga> don't know, maybe it's not me :D
23:01:03 <ais523> but it didn't work very well
23:01:14 <nooga> brb
23:01:38 <alisephone> ais523: Read "...because I needed testicles." :|
23:01:56 <ais523> nah, I have those already
23:02:00 <alisephone> ICA?
23:02:31 <alisephone> pikhq: I plan to not have virtual consoles in kernel.
23:02:55 <ais523> idealized concurrent algol, it's one of the languages I work with in my day job
23:03:03 <alisephone> They'll be servers that hook into the video and keyboard daemons or something.
23:03:14 <pikhq> alisephone: HURD doesn't either.
23:03:18 <alisephone> ais523: I want your day job.
23:03:23 <ais523> it's... basically, algol designed to work better for mathematicians
23:03:25 <pikhq> It has the *physical* console in kernel.
23:03:26 <alisephone> pikhq: You said it did.
23:03:36 <ais523> as in, not to be easier to use, but to be easier to analyze mathematically
23:03:36 <pikhq> Because you kinda need to be in kernel-space to write to the VGA buffer.
23:03:42 <alisephone> ...nobody uses that
23:03:52 <ais523> it's what computer scientists use if they want a vaguely imperative language to work with
23:03:54 <alisephone> pikhq: Expose as server~
23:04:08 <pikhq> ... How do you think a non-framebuffer text console works?
23:04:17 <alisephone> pikhq: MAGIC.
23:04:27 <alisephone> But yeah, I know.
23:04:40 <alisephone> Just run all procs in ring 1 >_>
23:04:48 <pikhq> It writes ASCII and color info interspersed to the VGA buffer. Glee.
23:04:51 <alisephone> protectedmemaccessd
23:05:47 <alisephone> pikhq: Ooh, in true Plan tradition I get to improve C.
23:05:55 <alisephone> Tuples!
23:06:17 <pikhq> alisephone: Glee.
23:06:22 <nooga> hah
23:06:45 <nooga> alisephone: still hacking Plan9?
23:07:03 <alisephone> (A,B,C) = strict { A [0]; B [1]; C [2]; }
23:07:07 <alisephone> *struct
23:07:17 <alisephone> (x,y,z) = tip
23:07:22 <alisephone> = tup
23:07:34 <alisephone> (int x, double y) = foo();
23:07:44 <alisephone> Hells yeah.
23:07:52 <alisephone> nooga: Plan X. M
23:08:08 <alisephone> Imagine plan9 turned up to plan11.
23:08:17 <alisephone> *no " M."
23:08:39 <nooga> would be awesome
23:09:05 <ais523> <jk1150> Even in the most recent version of Lotus Notes, you will get an error if you are typing in the subject line and click the add attachment button. IBM says this is a feature because you cannot add an attachment to a subject line, I think it is disgusting.
23:09:08 <nooga> my crappy gsoc proposal for P9 was not accepted so i left the topic for a while
23:09:18 <ais523> I like the reasoning...
23:09:30 <nooga> now i'm playing with rails 3 & heroku
23:09:33 <alisephone> In fact, let it deconstruct arbitrary structs
23:09:44 <nooga> awesome things
23:09:48 <alisephone> ((a,b) = calc()).result < 5
23:09:58 <alisephone> nooga: What a fall, from grace.
23:10:13 <alisephone> *structs.
23:10:16 <alisephone> ais523: :D
23:10:30 <nooga> hehe
23:10:44 <nooga> webdev is my current job
23:11:04 <nooga> and i do a lot of PHP which @#(&(&(@#**(#(*@#*#@*@# SUCKS
23:11:05 <alisephone> pikhq: Oh, and perhaps actual extensible types?
23:11:32 <alisephone> pikhq: Err no longer a no.
23:11:47 <nooga> i couldn't even find non-irritating MVC stack for PHP so i tried to write my own and failed :D
23:12:15 <alisephone> pikhq: Does Hurd have a concept of users?
23:12:22 <alisephone> At what level, rather?
23:12:39 <pikhq> alisephone: That's done by the authentication daemon.
23:12:46 <alisephone> In Plan 9ish systems, users are... A login process.
23:13:03 <alisephone> That's it.
23:13:15 <ais523> in other news, this is my first nday playing B Nomic
23:13:26 <alisephone> ais523: Ever?
23:13:34 <ais523> Teucer challenged my claim to be a newbie, and I was as shocked as he was
23:13:35 <ais523> yes, ever
23:13:41 <ais523> strange the way the rules work out, sometimes
23:13:49 <alisephone> You don't seriously buy the Era 4-5 argument?
23:13:50 <ais523> you really can't take much about B's history for granted
23:14:00 <alisephone> (That they never existed.)
23:14:01 <ais523> alisephone: eras 4 and 5 never happened, BGora didn't have ndays
23:14:12 <ais523> and yes, most of B buys that argument
23:14:16 <alisephone> I disagree with the former.
23:14:38 <ais523> platonically, I mean; sure, people played through and enjoyed them, and we can still talk about events happening in them
23:14:42 <ais523> but they were ignored by the rules
23:14:48 <alisephone> No.
23:14:53 <ais523> to be precise, they happened but the Clock was off continuously
23:15:00 <ais523> thus no ndays elapsed
23:15:04 <alisephone> I distinctly remember the argument sucking.
23:15:37 <alisephone> I think my nomic school is "formalism". :)
23:16:36 <alisephone> Alma mater: RMSN (The Retarded Monkey School of Nomic).
23:16:46 <ais523> alisephone: the rule allowing the clock to be switched back on was commented out
23:17:01 <alisephone> Ph.D. in naïveté.
23:17:05 <ais523> and even if the original comment crisis argument sucked slightly, someone made a much better one later on that pointed out it was commented out with both definitions
23:17:15 <alisephone> *naïvety.
23:17:18 <nooga> shhhhhhhh
23:17:23 <alisephone> Stupid American English.
23:17:32 <alisephone> ais523: Fair enough.
23:18:14 <alisephone> ais523: Pretty sure B has never existed :P
23:18:17 <nooga> my flatmates are using too much bandwith
23:18:30 <alisephone> nooga: throttle~
23:18:37 <nooga> can't
23:18:47 <nooga> some idiot secured the router
23:18:55 <alisephone> o_O
23:18:58 <ais523> alisephone: heh, I'm playing B under the name "703B E29B E9CC E4ED A7E2 7F62 1608 627B 1BA5 7726" because the requirement to be uniquely named is back, and I feared "ais523" might not be unique enough
23:18:59 <alisephone> Reset it
23:19:33 <alisephone> a SUSPICIOUSLY large number of 7s
23:19:49 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:20:25 <ais523> meh, it's a GPG key fingerprint
23:20:30 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it's unique
23:20:56 <ais523> there are a suspiciously large number of Es in the first half, too
23:21:37 <nooga> B?
23:22:02 <nooga> like /b/?
23:22:37 <ais523> err, no
23:22:42 <ais523> there's quite a difference
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23:23:00 <Warrigal> What was PSOX?
23:23:44 <ais523> Warrigal: an API to allow esoprograms to use operating system services, by Sgeo
23:23:47 <Gregor-W> PSOX is a system interface utilizing only stdout and stdin, so that it can be used by very restricted (esoteric) programming languages without modification.
23:23:54 <ais523> but its design made it basically only usable with BF
23:23:56 * Warrigal nods.
23:24:03 <Warrigal> Huh, why was that?
23:24:12 <ais523> because it relied on literal NUL characters a lot
23:24:19 <ais523> oh, I suppose Befunge can do those too
23:24:24 <ais523> but many esolangs can't
23:24:27 <Warrigal> Huh.
23:25:37 <Warrigal> I hope it was a binding to the C standard library.
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23:26:03 <nooga_> bah
23:26:07 <nooga_> restarted the router
23:26:08 <Gregor-W> Of course. The only magic to it was that the interface between the language and it was very thin, just stdout/stderr.
23:26:22 <Gregor-W> It itself was just linked however it works on the host.
23:26:59 <ais523> meanwhile, reddit are debating the "M-x google-maps" command
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23:32:53 <nooga_> Hurd looks cool
23:33:16 <AnMaster> ais523, it exists in emacs?
23:33:31 <ais523> AnMaster: not by default, someone implemented it
23:33:51 <ais523> I /hope/ it'll never get into the standard distribution
23:33:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what does it do? use picture-mode to display images?
23:34:03 <ais523> I think it's more complex than that, I haven't looked into it
23:34:09 <AnMaster> ais523, link?
23:34:32 <ais523> http://julien.danjou.info/blog/2010.html#M%2Dx%20google%2Dmaps
23:37:24 <AnMaster> ais523, how does it do it?
23:37:29 <AnMaster> showing the image I mean
23:37:38 <ais523> as I said, I don't know the emails
23:37:41 <ais523> *don't know the details
23:37:48 <ais523> but Emacs is certainly capable of showing images
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23:56:42 <alisephone> Warrigal: No. Sgeo invented his own APIs.
23:56:45 <alisephone> They were bad.
23:58:44 <Sgeo_> Besides the NUL thing, howso?
23:59:04 <ais523> Knuth "also stated that this successor of TeX will have features like 3-D printing, animation, stereographic sound."
23:59:10 <ais523> hmm, has hit Slashdot, eventually
00:02:55 <alisephone> ais523: Wish you judged my CFJ UNDECIDABLE. :)
00:03:28 <Sgeo_> alisephone, besides the NUL thing, how were they bad?
00:03:41 <ais523> alisephone: I don't see any evidence for that
00:03:56 <ais523> and, you're probably lucky, the alternative would have been that your message ironically made you /deregister/ and get locked out for 30 days
00:06:41 * Sgeo_ wonders if he should make a PSOX2
00:06:50 <Gregor-W> <ais523> Knuth "also stated that this successor of TeX will have features like 3-D printing, animation, stereographic sound." ... huh?
00:07:03 <Sgeo_> And this time, keeping in mind the needs of a variety of languages
00:07:03 <ais523> Gregor-W: he was trolling, quite successfully
00:07:11 <ais523> I suppose, if you're Knuth, you can get away with it
00:12:17 <alisephone> ais523: Weak evidence: rules say A becomes B strongly, but it
00:12:25 <alisephone> *it's not A, it's B
00:12:48 <alisephone> It stays B - rules violated, change from A to B didn't happen
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00:13:04 <alisephone> It becomes A - not stated anywhere in rules, illogical
00:13:17 <alisephone> has to be one or the other but cannot be either
00:13:21 <alisephone> paradox
00:14:01 <alisephone> An ani
00:14:19 <alisephone> Mation of tex flowing text would be awesome
00:14:36 <alisephone> start at ragged right, hyphenate, justify, etc.
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00:23:06 <zzo38> I want to make skins for forum softwares, with these features: * The UNIX timestamp of the last new item in any file linked to, will be included in the query string of the hyperlink that points to that file. * All operation by keyboard. * Minimal (or none) CSS, and no icons (to use low bandwidth).
00:24:02 <nooga_> zzo38: write a BBS so we can telnet the board
00:24:48 <nooga_> i can provide you with brand new, 8088 based, custom built machine with 300 baud modem
00:24:50 <zzo38> That is also a idea.
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00:24:59 <nooga_> screw www
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00:25:06 <zzo38> I do not need a computer with a 300 baud modem to do so, any computer will do.
00:25:22 <nooga_> but it won't be so cool
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00:25:29 <zzo38> Another idea is to provide all messages using 9P.
00:25:52 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: <3 you for liking 9P.
00:25:58 <nooga_> what's the point if you can't see when particular character appear on screen
00:26:01 <ehirdiphone> And with that, I'm off. Bye!
00:26:05 <nooga_> bye
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00:26:16 <nooga_> characters*
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00:28:20 <zzo38> I use multiple protocols in my own services and try to be minimal as much as reasonable possibly to make nearly anything work in many cases. Web browser software is very complicated. I do it make even a simple software can also connect. I have both HTTP and Gopher services, and some files are accessible by both, but some are useful only one way
00:29:04 <nooga_> honestly
00:29:10 <nooga_> who uses gopher these days?
00:29:22 <zzo38> Very few people, but there are some
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00:29:41 <zzo38> (I am not the only one)
00:30:18 <Gregor-W> Basically, people use Gopher for the same reason that I have a VM that runs System V.
00:30:33 <Gregor-W> They're protocol archaeologists, I'm an OS archaeologist.
00:30:42 <zzo38> People use gopher protocol because it is simpler, mostly.
00:30:59 <zzo38> I often make files accessible both on gopher and on HTTP as well.
00:31:00 <Gregor-W> I don't believe that for a nanosecond.
00:31:20 <Gregor-W> People useD the Gopher protocol because it WAS simpler.
00:31:58 <Gregor-W> But now, whether it's simpler or not, the effort involved in delving into the past just to serve a protocol no one can use is higher than any relief you may get from having a simple underlying protocol.
00:32:57 <zzo38> I serve multiple protocols on my computer
00:33:18 <zzo38> I have three protocols server by now
00:33:42 <Gregor-W> I fail to see the relevance of that statement to my previous statement.
00:33:45 <nooga_> Gregor-W: where did you get System V?
00:35:00 <Gregor-W> nooga_: See PM
00:35:08 <zzo38> When serving stuff by HTTP I use as less kind of complex HTML as possible, make sure JavaScript is not required to use any software (if it is, all JavaScript is optional), and use plain text files often.
00:35:17 <zzo38> But there are things that work well with HTTP/HTML/etc
00:36:24 <zzo38> But I like to design "command-web", meaning you can have a command-web inside of a HTML document or HTTP header, or by linked or by local aliases, and you can access it using the command-web client (even if you have no web-browser program), and make it workable like any other command-line program is, including parameters, redirect input/output, pipe, etc.
00:36:59 <zzo38> That it can be done even if your server serves static pages only, and only over HTTP, it can still be supported by anyone
00:38:15 <zzo38> (I am also currently playing a pinball game, called Jiggle Box. I think it is a very good one. In addition, in the background audio someone says "Why do women always get a place to sleep? Because they are the weaker sex. No, I think women are stronger. Do you know why? Because they get enough sleep, that's why.")
00:43:54 <nooga_> lol
00:44:29 <Gregor-W> Honestly that quote just makes me wonder where these people live where the women sleep in lavish four-poster beds and the men sleep curled up in the fetal position in the corner of a concrete box.
00:45:58 <nooga_> in soviet russia ... ?
00:45:59 <zzo38> I also played D&D today, in case you were wondering
00:46:15 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, bed sleep on YOU!!
00:47:12 <zzo38> Are shadow mastifs good to eat?
00:47:26 <Gregor-W> In Soviet Russia, object verb SUBJECT!
00:48:16 <nooga_> mastifs is a good name for a new fs
00:48:36 <zzo38> Ah, yes. I suppose it can be made so
00:48:42 <zzo38> If somewould is going to do it
00:50:29 <nooga_> hmm
00:50:40 <zzo38> Oops, why did I write "somewould"? Is that a word?
00:51:30 <nooga_> i have so much work to do... i guess i will leave it and relax while implementing 9P in ruby or doing another useless thing
00:52:29 <zzo38> But, are shadow mastifs good to eat? This is what happened in D&D game today
00:55:28 <Gregor-W> nooga_: SUGGESTION FOR USELESS THING (depending on your C ability): Help extend Microcosm!
00:56:19 <nooga_> what is microcosm?
00:56:25 <zzo38> SUGGESTION: Write a brainfuck interpreter in FurryScript.
00:56:35 <zzo38> MORE SUGGESTION: See how many books you need to reach the ceiling.
00:57:13 <Gregor-W> nooga_: I'm so glad you asked!
00:57:17 <Gregor-W> I'll direct you to http://codu.org/projects/microcosm/ to answer that
00:57:58 <Gregor-W> We're actually talking in #microcosm about what the best quick-summary for what Microcosm is :P ... it's a portable psuedo-OS allowing you to run Microcosm binaries (ELF files for a POSIX-like platform) on "any" OS (or will be, once it's further implemented)
00:58:20 <zzo38> EVEN MORE SUGGESTION: Make a spell in D&D that is so complicated and obscure that nobody can figure out
00:58:42 <nooga_> looks awesome
00:59:08 <Gregor-W> nooga_: Come in to the Microcosm fold! You know you want to!
00:59:13 <zzo38> (Jiggle Box is one of my favorite pinball games. There is one feature it lacks which most modern pinball games have. Do you know what it is?)
00:59:39 <zzo38> Gregor-W: I think Microcosm might be good idea once it is written some more, possibly
00:59:52 <Gregor-W> zzo38: Everybody says that :P
01:00:08 <zzo38> Gregor-W: But can it run on different processors as well, or only x86?
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01:01:27 <Gregor-W> zzo38: Microcosm is not an architecture simulator, so you can only run Microcosm binaries intended for one architecture on the same architecture. It's only been ported to x86 and x86_64, but there's nothing inherantly unportable about it.
01:02:42 <zzo38> Gregor-W: O, OK.
01:04:04 <zzo38> Perhaps also make up a new kind of virtual machine that can be compiled into native codes and have it that if the ELF binary uses that virtual machine, it will compile to a native code at first, but if it is already x86 it will just run it directly
01:04:30 <zzo38> I have discussed "restricted harvard architecture" before, as a way to ensure best optimization into native codes
01:04:56 <Gregor-W> We were talking earlier today about the feasibility of targeting LLVM as an "architecture" with ELF binaries.
01:05:19 <Gregor-W> Or, alternatively, targeting something like MIPS and creating a new user-process emulation for Qemu.
01:06:32 <zzo38> Do you know whether LLVM is restricted harvard?
01:07:13 <Gregor-W> Not a clue.
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01:07:18 <Gregor-W> Honestly LLVM still confuses me a lot :P
01:07:27 <Gregor-W> (Only because I haven't looked in to it at all)
01:07:33 <zzo38> I have looked at it a little bit
01:07:37 <zzo38> But not a lot
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01:35:23 <pikhq> Gregor-W: LLVM is incredibly, incredibly simple.
01:35:41 <nooga_> oh really?
01:35:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Do you know if LLVM is restricted harvard or not?
01:35:54 <pikhq> It's a single-static assignment assembly language that's easy to compile to other assembly languages and easy to optimise.
01:35:57 <pikhq> zzo38: Not even vaguely.
01:36:06 <zzo38> pikhq: OK
01:36:45 <Gregor-W> pikhq: I only get confused with LLVM when it comes to LLVM being compiled to native code so easily. If LLVM is so low level, then I can barely imagine how or where all the stupid issues of how you pass variables, pack structs and other such lunacy disappear.
01:37:15 <pikhq> Gregor-W: You generate machine-specific LLVM if you care about the details of that.
01:37:34 <pikhq> For instance, if you care about the struct packing for a 386 you pack it as though it were a 386.
01:37:51 <pikhq> It abstracts *just* the harder parts of compiling to native code, basically.
01:38:20 <Gregor-W> Hm
01:39:05 <Gregor-W> It's not strictly an assembly language, right? That is, it has a one-to-one conversion to/from "machine code" for an imaginary LLVM machine?
01:39:18 <Gregor-W> (Bytecode except not byte-code :P )
01:39:20 <pikhq> There is an LLVM bytecode as well, yes.
01:39:42 <pikhq> Most of the tools deal with LLVM bytecode, not LLVM assembly.
01:39:53 <Gregor-W> Got it.
01:40:11 <pikhq> But since it *is* an assembly language, LLVM assembly is not *that* much more than an ASCII serialisation of LLVM bytecode. :P
01:40:42 <Gregor-W> So, the only thing I was confused about is that I didn't realize that you couldn't take .C files, compile them to one canonical chunk of LLVM bytecode, then compile that to a binary on any architecture.
01:41:03 <pikhq> You *can* do that just fine actually.
01:41:09 <pikhq> You just end up breaking ABI.
01:41:14 <pikhq> :)
01:41:19 <Gregor-W> Well, you would have to make the most pessimistic assumptions about alignment and packing.
01:41:26 <pikhq> And breaking it *hard*...
01:41:31 <pikhq> Yes.
01:41:42 <Gregor-W> There are systems where you simply cannot load data from an unaligned space, so you'd have to align everything to 8-bytes.
01:42:10 <Gregor-W> For that matter, how does word size work in LLVM?
01:42:11 <pikhq> You only really get system-arbitrary LLVM bytecodes for languages without a lot of low-level details already.
01:42:20 <zzo38> I have written program, such as CZZT the structures must all be packed otherwise it won't run. It also won't run on big-endian computers.
01:42:30 <pikhq> In which case you can just say "Figure this shit out, LLVM." I *think*.
01:42:30 <zzo38> So, I use SDL macros to test some things
01:42:46 <zzo38> It doesn't matter if the start of the structure is aligned or not, though. But the contents of the structure must be packed
01:42:50 <Gregor-W> zzo38: I would say you've written a bad program then :P
01:43:09 <zzo38> And they must remain in the order it is in, rather than changing the data around in the different order, it also won't work.
01:43:33 <zzo38> Gregor-W: You might say that. But it is done this way for compatiblity.
01:43:58 <zzo38> There are other things done too. It is designed to be compatible with a old DOS program written in Pascal, of which nobody has source-codes
01:44:07 <Gregor-W> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
01:44:42 <zzo38> Even the video memory structures are made to be same as the way that the IBM PC does in text mode
01:44:55 <Gregor-W> Yeesh
01:45:02 <zzo38> Although this new program is written in SDL, so it should work on any small-endian computer
01:45:05 <zzo38> That can use SDL
01:45:18 <pikhq> Gregor-W: One needs to be aware of system word size.
01:45:34 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Yet another chink in LLVM's portability armor :P
01:45:46 <zzo38> In addition, this program requires 32-bit pointer sizes
01:45:57 <pikhq> It's not designed to be heavily portable. It's designed to be a nice language runtime backend.
01:46:03 <zzo38> If the target computer is big-endian or it has different pointer sizes, it won't compile.
01:46:08 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Fair enough.
01:46:30 <Gregor-W> pikhq: So if I did make a Microcosm-LLVM virtual machine, I'd need to make a Microcosm-LLVM32 and/or a Microcosm-LLVM64 virtual machine.
01:46:45 <Gregor-W> Something which e.g. Java can circumvent simply because it doesn't have pointers :P
01:47:08 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Actually, I think there's *ways* to make it run something kinda like C in that your program just accepts that different compilations will have different sizeof(void*)'s.
01:47:52 <pikhq> But I've not seen that in action, so I'm not sure.
01:48:04 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Compiling C to such a system would be lunacy, as sizeof(void*) wouldn't be a compiler-known constant, so even if it worked at the LLVM level it would break everything else.
01:48:05 <zzo38> Then don't use LLVM if you could instead make up a virtual machine that has restricted harvard architecture, it can have a pointer size that can be optimized into the target native code, for RAM pointer, but for ROM pointer there is no relevant pointer size because pointer into ROM is impossible
01:48:20 <pikhq> Gregor-W: True.
01:48:44 * Gregor-W considers.
01:49:05 <Gregor-W> Of course, so long as Microcosm is a C-based system, we're stuck with having single-word-size binaries.
01:49:15 <Gregor-W> But I don't see why that should restrict us to single-architecture binaries.
01:49:31 <Gregor-W> Anyway, long-term goals :P
01:49:50 <pikhq> BTW, fun fact: the LLVM linker lets symbols be unresolved at link time.
01:50:01 <pikhq> (so it can resolve at JIT time or native-code-generation time)
01:50:24 <Gregor-W> So does ld, if you ask it to.
01:50:41 <pikhq> Awesome.
01:51:17 <pikhq> Oh, right. Glee.
01:51:21 <pikhq> LLVM has a C backend.
01:54:17 * Gregor-W 's brain just exploded.
01:54:30 <Gregor-W> C->LLVM->C->LLVM->C->... let's measure the eigenratio.
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02:04:02 <zzo38> Two characters in the D&D game eat shadow mastifs, my character and one non-player character
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02:39:20 <zzo38> Where can I find a list of what template files are needed in phpBB, and what the elements are that are used in each one?
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03:40:56 <zzo38> The CRTC has some stupid rules for the radio. One is that you are not allowed to play only part of a Canadian song. In addition there are rules for censorship that no pornography or swearing on radio, etc. I know some people don't like it (that includes myself), but I also like freedom of speech. I can propose a compromise, that such censorship is regulated only on odd numbered radio stations and not on even radio stations?
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06:43:36 <zzo38> That "Entropy" is interesting
06:44:00 <coppro> hmm?
06:44:15 <zzo38> When values are decay, does that include also the constant numbers in the program? It does include string literals, but does it include number
06:44:38 <zzo38> Also there is no list of commands and list of operators documented
06:44:58 <coppro> link?
06:45:03 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Entropy
06:50:54 * coppro should actually design/implement a language some day
06:52:00 <zzo38> coppro: Maybe do so some day?
06:52:27 <coppro> meh, that language is boring
06:52:49 <Sgeo_> Or design and implement crappy APIs!
06:52:54 * Sgeo_ looks selfward
06:52:59 <coppro> entertaining but positively useless
06:53:16 <zzo38> coppro: Yes mostly that is it
06:53:35 <zzo38> But there is not enough information about Entropy language, is still true
06:53:42 <Sgeo_> If you don't like useless, what are you doing here?
06:58:14 <pikhq> The Japanese are freaking crazy.
06:58:18 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Macrocheira_kaempferi.jpg The Japanese spider crab.
06:58:24 <pikhq> The leg span there is 12 feet.
06:58:30 <pikhq> They eat that.
07:00:16 <zzo38> When I ask some people on the other IRC about if shadow mastifs are good to eat, some people answer in different ways, including some people said only fox good to eat in that fantasy world, or don't understand why, or various
07:00:28 <coppro> pikhq: sounds delicious
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07:01:28 <pikhq> coppro: Y'know, actually.
07:01:41 <pikhq> Stick some butter on that and it probably *is* freaking delicious.
07:01:43 <pikhq> 40 pounds of it.
07:03:24 <zzo38> How often do you write "the"?
07:03:35 <zzo38> And how often do you write "I" and "you"?
07:03:42 <pikhq> Very commonly.
07:04:02 <Gregor> The only time I would write any of them to /you/ is in this sentence.
07:05:45 <zzo38> OK that is a sentence
07:06:40 <zzo38> This is a sentence.
07:15:30 <fizzie> In a Google-provided corpus of 1024908267229 words collected from the interwebs, the word "the" is the most popular word, appearing 19401194714 times (1.89 %).
07:16:40 <fizzie> (I is on 15th place with 2744649681 occurrances, you is 18th with 2404223410. People on the internet care more about themselves than others, it seems.)
07:17:36 <coppro> what's second? a?
07:18:30 <fizzie> The top ten in order is: the, of, and, to, a, in, for, is, The, on. This seems to be case-sensitive, so I should've added "You" and "you" together, sorry about that.
07:20:03 <zzo38> It doesn't matter if you care about yourself or others, the reason for writing "I" or "you" is different things. Because there is different reasons for doing so. In addition, "I" might be used simply as a letter rather than as a word in some contexts.
07:23:51 <fizzie> Quasi-interestingly, if you take a selection of books from male and female authors, there is a noticeable difference in combined frequency counts of wordsets (she, her, hers, herself) and (he, him, his, himself) depending on the gender of the author.
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07:35:07 <zzo38> TSUMO!!
07:35:55 <zzo38> RON!!
07:37:00 <zzo38> KAN!!
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09:36:56 <nooga_> i've got a new project - running windows 3.0 on this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw
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09:39:11 <nooga_> pikhq: 12 feet?
09:41:30 <nooga_> It is reported to have a gentle disposition "in spite of its ferocious appearance".
09:41:34 <nooga_> YUCK
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12:26:44 <Ilari> Heh... Computer makes noise if I use floodping. And if IPSec is used, the noise sounds really awful.
12:27:22 <Ilari> Some computer-internal EMI?
12:37:35 <Ilari> Haha... On blog post Comment #2: "Mmmmm.... braaaaaiiiinnnzzzz....". Comment #3: "Wow, 2 comments plus this one and no denialists yet. are the zombies sleeping?".
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15:04:03 <pikhq> OMFG.
15:04:16 <pikhq> The Pirate Party is now going to take over running the Pirate Bay.
15:04:25 <pikhq> ... *Inside Swedish parliament*.
15:05:34 <pikhq> Because Swedish politicians are almost entirely immune to prosecution from things done as part of their political goals.
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15:08:08 <nooga> heheee
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16:24:00 <Gregor> pikhq: Huh?
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19:15:52 <zzo38> I wrote a program for CYOA type games in TAVSYS
19:15:53 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/lib/cyoa.4th
19:16:03 <zzo38> I can add more features if you have idea to add more features
19:18:37 <zzo38> Unfortunately there is not a lot of documentation, it only lists the error codes
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19:29:47 <zzo38> coppro: Hello, and good day, is it good day for you today?
19:29:55 <coppro> yes, boot
19:29:57 <coppro> *bot
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19:53:21 <zzo38> Please tell me, a question I did not get answer very satisfactory, is shadow mastifs good to eat? (in D&D)
19:53:38 <coppro> yes
19:53:45 <coppro> not very filling though
19:54:15 <zzo38> Why do you think that is the case?
19:54:34 <coppro> it's shadow
19:55:43 <zzo38> I don't think it is actual shadow, I think it is proper physical object
19:56:07 <coppro> that's what they want you to think
19:59:42 <zzo38> It is not incorporeal. It is called "shadow" because they can hide in a shadow
20:01:40 <zzo38> Is it good for ettercap and/or otyugh to eat?
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23:18:02 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_11/mahjongflowchart.png
23:20:04 <Ilari> What's that "fat player's mahjong" about?
23:20:20 <zzo38> Ilari: I don't know.
23:20:44 <zzo38> Maybe it is from some manga I have not seen
23:22:17 <zzo38> I don't know how eating more can possibly give you a better chance for daisangen.
23:26:34 <Ilari> It is waiting activity (since metabolism control is busted and one is almost continuously hungry)?
23:27:48 <zzo38> Ilari: I am not sure
23:27:59 <zzo38> Daisangen is just a certain combination of tiles that you can have
23:28:27 <zzo38> It means three or four of each sangenpai (often called "dragons" in English).
23:28:44 <zzo38> It is a yakuman hand, which means it scores the maximum if you are East.
23:28:48 <Ilari> zzo38: Essentially 'eat' there replacing 'wait'.
23:29:44 <zzo38> Ilari: Ah, OK. You might have to play a lot before getting such tiles as that.
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23:34:05 <Ilari> Its amazing how often people with damaged metabolism controls go hungry (and then eat, usually not-good-for-you stuff).
23:35:05 <zzo38> I can explain most of the stuff in the mahjong flowchart, but I don't know what "squigglies" is
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23:45:58 <zzo38> Uncertainty Principle's Office: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/FatherHeisenberg.PNG
23:48:22 <zzo38> I did packaged the IRCd codes but it isn't very good packaged. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ircd/
23:52:20 <zzo38> Not many people understand evolution properly, but how many people are *that* bad http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/evolution_should_not.jpg
23:54:02 <zzo38> What does the error message "rDrebTenrsr nc RRdnrTSb SncrrebdRRdncsretrepscdogtia inte F t" supposed to mean??
23:56:02 <Ilari> Uh... No idea... What language it is supposed to be in anyway?
23:58:11 <zzo38> I don't know. I got this error in QuickBasic once
23:59:27 <zzo38> Something similar, in an unsubscribe form I have seen where it says "Please indicate why you are unsubscribing" but the only choices is "toto" and "titi"
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09:10:14 <coppro> Am I the only one here who finds it weird that ":vim" in vim is the command to grep?
09:21:32 <fizzie> Well, it's just an unambiguous abbreviation of "vimgrep", the full command name.
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09:22:07 <fizzie> (There is also :grep, which uses an external grep utility.)
09:22:23 <coppro> fizzie: I know what it is
09:22:25 <coppro> it's still weird
09:22:40 <fizzie> But it's not as weird as calling the command just "vim".
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16:37:19 <pikhq> GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes.
16:41:25 <Deewiant> strip -s typically halves them
16:44:41 <pikhq> Still gigantic.
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17:25:37 <cheater99> pikhq: what's the largest you got?
17:26:51 <pikhq> cheater99: MEGS
17:28:11 <AnMaster> <pikhq> GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes. <-- worse than GCC?
17:28:20 <cheater99> pikhq: i expected 100s of megs
17:28:23 <AnMaster> err
17:28:25 <AnMaster> G++
17:28:28 <AnMaster> not GCC
17:28:31 <AnMaster> -_-
17:28:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, the thing is, static linking is the default in GHC.
17:29:15 <oerjan> what's the size of "main = return ()" ? :D
17:30:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, ouch
17:30:26 <pikhq> oerjan: 468K.
17:30:33 <AnMaster> yeargh
17:30:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, before strip or after?
17:30:41 <oerjan> they only recently got dynamic linking working in any implementations at all, iirc
17:30:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: After.
17:30:50 <pikhq> oerjan: 12K with dynamic linking.
17:30:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, _ouch_
17:30:58 <pikhq> Which appears to be the minimum GHC binary size.
17:31:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, what was size before strip?
17:31:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: 676K.
17:31:20 <AnMaster> heh
17:31:32 <pikhq> The thing is, there's a massive chunk of stuff in there.
17:31:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, is all that really needed?
17:31:45 <pikhq> As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there.
17:31:58 <pikhq> The garbage collector probably is.
17:32:21 <pikhq> The thread implementation is probably not.
17:32:24 <AnMaster> <pikhq> As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there. <-- doesn't linking against *.a just pull the files you actually need?
17:32:45 <pikhq> Yes, but it pulls in the entire contents of those files.
17:32:50 <Deewiant> Run your ./donothing +RTS --help and see what you've got
17:33:08 <pikhq> Massive chunk of stuff.
17:33:09 <pikhq> :)
17:33:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, split it in more files then
17:33:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: GHC isn't a magic-worker.
17:33:53 <pikhq> Also, most of it's going to be pulled in anyways.
17:33:55 <Deewiant> It could, in theory, notice that your program doesn't use the GC at all
17:34:07 <pikhq> Because you can pass arguments to the RTS...
17:34:14 <Deewiant> But since only trivial hello-world or do-nothing level programs do that, there's no point
17:34:39 <pikhq> Letting you configure a lot of stuff with the GC, the threading library, etc.
17:35:10 <oerjan> they're apparently going to turn off +RTS handling by default iirc, it's a security hole
17:35:17 <pikhq> Hmm.
17:35:39 <oerjan> it allows specifying some output files iirc
17:36:13 <pikhq> For GC stat logging.
17:36:46 <Deewiant> std::cout << "Hi\n"; is 496K with g++ and a statically linked libstdc++
17:37:00 <Deewiant> GHC isn't that amazing IMO :-P
17:38:06 <pikhq> Yeah, int main(){} statically linked is 580K.
17:38:18 <pikhq> Glibc is designed by retards apparently.
17:38:59 <oerjan> it's designed by a guy who violently spits on anyone suggesting they should try to save memory, iirc
17:39:19 <pikhq> Freaking Ulrich Drepper.
17:39:37 <oerjan> (aka being useful for embedded devices)
17:42:20 <pikhq> Yeah, glibc is pretty feature-complete, but it comes at the expense of being usable on anything with less than, oh, 64M of RAM.
17:55:07 <Deewiant> pikhq: How'd you manage that? My int main(){} was 6.3K (smaller than the dynamically linked one)
17:55:20 <pikhq> Deewiant: ... Glibc?
17:55:36 <AnMaster> with uclibc it was smaller for me, with glibc it was larger
17:56:14 <Deewiant> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.0/../../../../lib/libstdc++.a
17:56:32 <Deewiant> I don't have any other libc's here AFAIK :-P
17:56:40 <pikhq> That's not even libc.
17:56:53 <pikhq> int main(){}, build with gcc -static.
17:56:54 <pikhq> Go.
17:57:16 <Deewiant> Oh, there's a -static
17:57:43 <Deewiant> I googled it and found a reference to a non-working -static-libgcc and a recommendation to hide libstdc++.so
17:57:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, C++ != C
17:57:57 <Deewiant> Where "it" is static linking with g++
17:58:01 <Deewiant> I know
17:58:08 <Deewiant> I was talking about C++ from the start :-P
17:59:46 <Deewiant> I felt the comparison was more meaningful that way since GHC also dynamically links libc
18:00:08 <pikhq> Ah.
18:11:26 <pikhq> ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libgcc/config/libbid/bid_decimal_globals.c:47:18: fatal error: fenv.h: No such file or directory
18:11:33 <pikhq> I hate you so much GCC.
18:16:18 <oerjan> hey we're (the wiki) on the reddit front page
18:16:59 <oerjan> irp again
18:17:14 <pikhq> IRP.
18:18:55 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/clhyt/internet_relay_programming/c0tff21
18:26:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Tweeted: About NetHack: perceptive of you to the ground, with a single strong, yet impervious to gravity? he invites the very devil, an off-shoot..."
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18:45:53 <alise> I enter too late!
18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:03 <pikhq> OMFG.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:16 <pikhq> The Pirate Party is now going to take over running the Pirate Bay.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:25 <pikhq> ... *Inside Swedish parliament*.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:05:34 <pikhq> Because Swedish politicians are almost entirely immune to prosecution from things done as part of their political goals.
18:49:19 <alise> <3
18:52:33 <pikhq> alise: Yo.
18:52:43 <alise> yo.
18:59:13 <pikhq> mlterm is an amazing terminal.
19:00:32 <alise> IS IT REALLY THOUGH
19:01:22 <pikhq> It handles languages correctly.
19:02:28 <oerjan> yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo
19:02:31 <oerjan> yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo
19:05:53 <Gregor> http://nedroid.com/2010/07/a-holiday-reminder/
19:06:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:08:09 <oerjan> never swallow rockets, especially when lighted
19:09:18 -!- coppro has joined.
19:10:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:12:13 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:12:41 <alise> Gracenotes: <3 nedroid
19:16:45 <pikhq> I CAN TYPE PAUL ERDŐS AGAIN!
19:16:46 <oklopol> how do you know
19:16:47 <pikhq> WOOT
19:18:48 <Deewiant> What changed?
19:19:06 <alise> 12:01:29 <ghostwriter42> http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number"
19:19:07 <alise> o.o
19:19:17 <alise> lol @ that blog
19:20:49 <alise> 12:32:53 <coppro> <3 Glee
19:20:56 <alise> I hope not the awful TV show.
19:21:13 <coppro> alise: it is not awful. It has music.
19:21:21 <alise> ...
19:21:29 <alise> I do hope you're joking.
19:21:45 -!- yiyus has joined.
19:21:46 <pikhq> Anyways: I've got a terminal that handles Unicode actually correctly.
19:21:52 <pikhq> Unlike urxvt, which claims to and fails.
19:21:55 <pikhq> HOORAY
19:21:56 <coppro> an actual terminal?
19:21:58 <pikhq>
19:22:03 <pikhq> coppro: Terminal emulator
19:22:10 <coppro> konsole works for me
19:22:16 <oerjan> aka terminator. wait...
19:22:34 <pikhq> How does it handle bidirectional text?
19:22:36 <alise> 16:44:29 <Gregor-W> Honestly that quote just makes me wonder where these people live where the women sleep in lavish four-poster beds and the men sleep curled up in the fetal position in the corner of a concrete box.
19:22:40 <alise> :D
19:22:44 <pikhq> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_(terminal_emulator)
19:23:01 <coppro> pikhq: Oh... that I have no clue of
19:23:04 <alise> i used terminator for a while
19:23:09 <coppro> Can you give me a sample so that I can test it?
19:23:38 <oerjan> O KAY
19:24:01 <pikhq> العربية
19:26:10 <pikhq> That should render as the same glyphs as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabic_albayancalligraphy.svg
19:27:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:28:50 <pikhq> ا ل ع ر ب ي ة
19:29:06 <pikhq> And there's the glyphs by themselves, so you can see if it's doing the complex layout correctly, as well.
19:36:18 <alise> pikhq: Terminator also does Unicode spectacularly, BTW.
19:36:42 <alise> pikhq: ... As does rio...
19:37:06 <pikhq> alise: Mmm.
19:37:19 <pikhq> Not enough things do.
19:39:21 * pikhq shall check out terminator
19:40:11 <oklopol> SimonRC: was it you who was obsessed with lucid dreaming at some point, or was it pikhq
19:40:16 <oklopol> (or perhaps no one?)
19:41:12 <oklopol> last night i had one where i created a few people and asked them to play me a song, to see how good a song my brain could come up with on the fly
19:41:56 <pikhq> Hmm. So far I see two major failings in Terminator.
19:41:57 <oklopol> i remember it was awesome, but the actual details i remember are really weird and stupid :P
19:42:00 <pikhq> First, it doesn't handle IMEs.
19:42:09 <pikhq> Second, it doesn't handle bidirectional text.
19:42:41 <pikhq> So, screw that.
19:42:51 <pikhq> mlterm seems to be rendering underscores oddly.
19:43:14 <pikhq> Basically, it isn't aware of where they get rendered, so it ends up not actually clearing them from the screen.
19:44:20 <pikhq> Is it too much to ask for a terminal without bugs?
19:45:53 <pikhq> Okay, okay.
19:46:02 <pikhq> Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works.
19:52:42 <alise> pikhq: Third, Terminator is Java.
19:52:54 <alise> <pikhq> Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works. <-- OTOH, you have to deal with line spacing 1.
19:53:08 <pikhq> 1 pixel.
19:53:26 <pikhq> Said pixel being where the underscore goes.
19:55:35 <alise> So, am I right in thinking that I could get out of an EU country's mandatory military service by not being a proper resident but only a European Citizen?
19:56:17 <pikhq> Yes.
19:56:32 <pikhq> Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*.
19:56:33 <Deewiant> Don't all military services require citizenship of the country anyway
19:56:39 <pikhq> Deewiant: No.
19:56:55 <AnMaster> the French have some foreign legion or such iirc?
19:56:57 <AnMaster> forgot the name for it
19:56:59 <pikhq> The US and French militaries, for instance, quite approve of foreign volunteers.
19:57:13 <pikhq> The French Foreign Legion comes with automatic French citizenship.
19:57:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh
19:57:27 <Deewiant> Hmm, I thought the US required it
19:57:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, so you drop your old citizenship?
19:57:35 <Deewiant> Should've remembered the French though
19:57:38 <pikhq> Deewiant: Fast track to citizenship.
19:57:45 <Deewiant> Well yeah
19:57:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, they allow dual citizenship.
19:57:50 <Deewiant> But that still counts as requiring it :-P
19:57:50 <alise> <pikhq> Yes.
19:57:50 <alise> <pikhq> Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*.
19:57:51 <alise> Riht.
19:57:53 <alise> *Right.
19:57:56 <alise> Then Finland is on the cards again.
19:57:58 <pikhq> Deewiant: No, they don't require it.
19:58:04 <alise> (I refuse to be drafted.)
19:58:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, does your host country do that though=
19:58:07 <pikhq> However, by being in the military, citizenship is very easy.
19:58:10 <AnMaster> s/=/?/
19:58:16 <Deewiant> alise: You could've just said Finland instead of "an EU country" although I guessed that one anyway ;-P
19:58:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Most nations allow it.
19:58:24 <alise> Deewiant: Did I need to say Finland? :)
19:58:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm
19:58:55 <Deewiant> alise: In Finland, you can also do the civil service even if you do get drafted, if you just don't want to do military stuff
19:59:01 <alise> Deewiant: Oh, so that's why you're a hideously intelligent sociopath: they teach you their secrets in the military, then make you blow people up with them. Well, okay, so I invented the sociopath thing myself.
19:59:08 <alise> Deewiant: Yeah, but I also don't want to do the civil service :P
19:59:12 <pikhq> alise: Also, fun fact: all nations with mandatory military service in Europe do not have those forced ever be deployed.
19:59:25 <pikhq> It'd be political suicide, obviously.
19:59:38 <Deewiant> alise: You can also go to jail to spend the minimum amount of time ;-P
19:59:41 <pikhq> They have, in effect, volunteer armies, yet force people to do random training for a year or two.
19:59:43 <alise> pikhq: In Finland you can serve a jail sentence instead.
19:59:45 <pikhq> Kinda retarded.
19:59:55 <alise> Which is just totally awesome!
20:00:01 <alise> But I think I'll just live with being a second-class citizen.
20:00:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:00:11 <alise> Actually, can't European citizens of age even vote in their resident country?
20:00:14 <alise> Hi ais523.
20:00:16 <pikhq> alise: Hardly even "second-class".
20:00:19 <pikhq> Yes, you can vote.
20:00:39 <ais523> hi alise
20:00:47 <pikhq> Pretty much the only thing that makes you second-class is a need to carry around your passport.
20:00:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if I moved to Denmark I could vote in both Denmark and in Sweden?
20:01:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes.
20:01:09 <AnMaster> huh
20:01:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, do I get two votes to the EU parliament? ;)
20:01:27 <pikhq> No.
20:01:48 <alise> pikhq: Also, Mr. Immigration Expert, how do I renounce my British citizenship? And can I still be a European citizen?
20:02:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, what if I moved into a house placed right on top of the German/Danish border? Could I vote in 3 countries then?
20:02:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That house would be disambiguated :-P
20:02:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, argh
20:02:40 <pikhq> alise: Varies from nation to nation.
20:03:05 <alise> AnMaster: What if the two countries had varying age of consent laws, and you fucked someone in the middle of the age bracket half on the border and half not?!
20:03:18 <pikhq> The typical process, though, involves going to the nearest embassy, declaring intent to renounce citizenship, and then relinquishing your passport.
20:03:19 <alise> I guess the half the vagina is on might matter.
20:03:29 <pikhq> They will probably also require proof that you have other citizenship.
20:03:32 <alise> pikhq: The passport thing might be an issue.
20:03:37 <alise> pikhq: So I can't just be an EU citizen?
20:03:48 <AnMaster> alise, awesome idea with that "right in the middle"
20:03:49 <pikhq> No, as the EU is not a sovereign nation.
20:04:03 <alise> pikhq: Dammit, why not?!
20:04:11 <AnMaster> alise, alas I don't know the answer
20:04:14 <alise> pikhq: I don't want to be British but I don't want to be Finnish either :P
20:04:19 <pikhq> Because Europeans go "ZOMG NEED NATIONS"
20:04:32 <alise> AnMaster: The answer is that the nations would decide who has sovereignity over the house, probably, and the borders would change accordingly.
20:04:42 <alise> AnMaster: Alternatively, you wouldn't be granted permission to build the house. This is the most likely scenario.
20:04:45 <pikhq> alise: If you got employed at Vatican City you could become Vatican.
20:04:45 <pikhq> :P
20:04:52 <AnMaster> alise, hm
20:04:58 <alise> pikhq: I don't need physical molestation to go with the emotional!
20:05:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: If they grant permission to build the house, they will sign a treaty to note who has jurisdiction over the building.
20:06:07 <pikhq> This is how it works with things like CERN, which are on national borders.
20:06:15 <pikhq> I doubt they'll sign a treaty for a *house*, so.
20:06:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh, aren't there any existing buildings that crosses any borders?
20:06:22 <pikhq> Several.
20:06:29 <pikhq> Governed by treaties.
20:06:31 <AnMaster> heh
20:06:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, even for small cottages on borders or such?
20:06:57 <pikhq> They draw borders around them.
20:07:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh
20:07:16 <pikhq> There's also a few border disputes because of things like that.
20:07:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, hah
20:07:27 <alise> draw a big trans-border house shaped like a penis
20:07:30 <alise> get borders changed
20:07:31 <alise> profit
20:07:42 <AnMaster> hah
20:07:52 <pikhq> National borders are *such* a bizarre thing.
20:08:17 <AnMaster> indeed
20:08:47 <AnMaster> alise, probably the border will end up with a rectangular hole for it
20:09:17 <alise> AnMaster: no, nobody would give up more than is strictly necessary!
20:09:25 <alise> also, geometric borders would be weird.
20:09:35 <pikhq> alise: "All categories of British nationality can be renounced by a declaration made to the Home Secretary. A person ceases to be a British national on the date that the declaration of renunciation is registered by the Home Secretary. If a declaration is registered in the expectation of acquiring another citizenship, but one is not acquired within six months of the registration, it does not take effect and the person is considered to have r
20:09:38 <AnMaster> alise, like in Africa?
20:09:41 <pikhq> "
20:09:47 <Deewiant> pikhq: to have r...
20:09:48 <alise> pikhq: to have r"
20:09:56 <alise> AnMaster: AFRICA IS WEIRD MAN.
20:09:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).
20:10:06 <pikhq> to have remained a British national."
20:10:10 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg Not all /that/ geometric.
20:10:31 <alise> pikhq: So I could only renounce my British citizenship by becoming a Finnish citizen, then, and thus suffering the draft.
20:10:32 <pikhq> So, you need to gain other citizenship to lose British citizenship, full-stop.
20:10:36 <AnMaster> alise, there are several straight lines though
20:10:41 <alise> It's just paranoia tells me to get the fuck away from the British government in any way possible.
20:10:48 <fizzie> CERN has a border going right through their campus; I think the border still goes right through, but they also don't care about it much. Of course they have quite a lot of identity-checking on the campus gates, so...
20:11:05 <AnMaster> hah
20:11:13 <coppro> fizzie: It's also a Schengen border
20:11:38 <pikhq> fizzie: It's a Schengen border, *and* sovereignity is defined.
20:11:50 <pikhq> IIRC, all but one of the buildings is under French jurisdiction.
20:12:13 <coppro> alise: no, you could also become a stateless person (not recommended)
20:12:25 <AnMaster> coppro, what does that mean?
20:12:30 <pikhq> There's also an airport on the US/Canada border...
20:12:31 <alise> coppro: Just curious, why would that be unrecommended? :P
20:12:35 <alise> Lack of any rights?
20:12:35 <pikhq> This works very oddly.
20:12:39 <coppro> alise: mostly
20:12:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, ?
20:12:44 <coppro> AnMaster: no nationality
20:12:48 <alise> Could I be an EU citizen? I suppose not :-P
20:13:01 <AnMaster> alise, try Swedish citizen?
20:13:12 <pikhq> Past the security gates in an international airport is considered to be only under international law.
20:13:13 <AnMaster> alise, and this means you are moving abroad?
20:13:15 <alise> AnMaster: But I'd rather live in Finland. :P
20:13:25 <alise> There's interesting people in Finland. Sweden...
20:13:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh
20:13:34 <pikhq> As such: one side of the building is under US jusrisdiction, one is under Canada, and the middle is under NONE AT ALL.
20:13:37 <alise> pikhq: Is there an international age of consent?
20:13:52 <alise> If not: Pedobear tiem
20:13:56 <pikhq> alise: No.
20:14:01 <alise> "You wanna go on a plane, little girl?"
20:14:07 <alise> "I got a biiiig loooong aeroplane..."
20:14:17 <pikhq> alise: The *plane* is under the jurisdiction of the country it's over.
20:14:31 <alise> pikhq: "You know what, little girl? Let's just stay here."
20:14:35 <pikhq> "Jurisdiction" is really not set up for modern transit.
20:14:38 <alise> "[evil cackle]"
20:14:44 <alise> pikhq: Whoa.
20:14:53 <alise> pikhq: I am founding the United State of No Planes Allowed.
20:14:59 <coppro> pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun
20:15:02 <alise> Let's all just claim tiny little islands and make flight patterns a hell of a lot more complicated.
20:15:04 <alise> [[While stateless persons were more common before the 20th century, when many states were somewhat fragile entities, on September 20, 1954 the United Nations adopted the Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons: an active policy to prevent people becoming or remaining stateless.]]
20:15:08 <alise> coppro: HOW AM BECOME STATELESS
20:15:11 <pikhq> alise: Perfectly possible.
20:15:20 <alise> [[Principle 3 of the 1959 Declaration of the Rights of the Child asserts that:
20:15:21 <alise> "The child shall be entitled from his birth to a name and a nationality."]]
20:15:32 <pikhq> alise: The UK makes a point of not allowing anyone to become stateless.
20:15:40 <alise> So how am become stateless!
20:15:45 <AnMaster> <coppro> pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun <-- oh?
20:15:51 <pikhq> It is literally impossible to lose UK citizenship without having another citizenship.
20:16:04 <alise> pikhq: Mind, I don't actually want to. Having UK citizenship is completely harmless, right?
20:16:14 <pikhq> Yes.
20:16:27 <pikhq> ... Hmm. Is the NHS UK or British?
20:16:33 <pikhq> Erm.
20:16:35 <pikhq> English.
20:16:47 <coppro> AnMaster: We have US preclearance, so in some parts of the airport, you're legally in Canada; other parts you're waiting to immigrate, and other parts you're waiting to emigrate. Because of the changing volumes of traffic, these zones change throughout the day.
20:16:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:16:47 <AnMaster> NHS?
20:16:57 <alise> pikhq: English, but I'm sure the other analogues would cooperate.
20:16:58 <pikhq> National Health Service.
20:17:01 <alise> AnMaster: National "Health" Service.
20:17:10 <AnMaster> coppro, what... that made no sense
20:17:20 <alise> AnMaster: The unit happens to be under its jurisdiction; so I would prefer you used the proper name, "National Hell Service".
20:17:30 <coppro> AnMaster: In most major Canadian airports, you clear US customs before leaving (if you're going to the USA)
20:17:52 <AnMaster> coppro, oh. How strange
20:18:10 <coppro> AnMaster: have you ever been through customs in a busy US airport? If so, you'd understand why.
20:18:15 <AnMaster> coppro, so how do those zones change in size? some marker being moved?
20:18:21 <coppro> AnMaster: security doors and such
20:18:28 <AnMaster> coppro, I have never been outside Europe
20:18:33 <pikhq> alise: Dude, you could escape to a different constituent country of the UK if you felt that they wouldn't cooperate.
20:18:40 <AnMaster> coppro, in fact, I been to Sweden, Norway and Denmark
20:18:41 <AnMaster> that is all
20:18:44 <coppro> ah
20:18:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: US customs is a pain even if you're a US citizen.
20:18:52 <alise> pikhq: I disagree.
20:18:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, I see
20:18:59 <alise> pikhq: There is generally[2] no discrimination when a patient resident in one country of the United Kingdom requires treatment in another. The consequent financial matters and paperwork of such inter-working are dealt with between the organisations involved and there is generally no personal involvement by the patient comparable to that which might occur when a resident of one European Union member country receives treatment in another.
20:19:04 <ais523> coppro: I've actually seen that, I've been in a Canadian airport
20:19:10 <alise> pikhq: i.e., they have an intense relationship with each other and are completely transparent for the patient.
20:19:18 <pikhq> alise: Okay, so.
20:19:18 <coppro> :)
20:19:24 <alise> i.e., "We have a wonderful Scottish unit for you..."
20:19:25 <pikhq> Other nation then.
20:19:29 <ais523> the amount of security difference between the US and non-US side was staggering
20:19:29 <alise> pikhq: That is the plan.
20:19:38 <coppro> ais523: Yeah
20:19:41 <pikhq> I'd imagine it's actual hell if you aren't a US citizen...
20:19:46 <coppro> it's pretty silly actually
20:19:55 <pikhq> ais523: We love our security theater.
20:20:08 <coppro> "You're going to the US? We must do what the USA overlords say! Everyone strip!" "You're going somewhere else? Oh, carry on then."
20:20:34 <pikhq> I say "theater" because if I wanted to cause major havoc, I'd set off a bomb at the security station...
20:20:39 * alise strips
20:20:48 <ais523> pikhq: in the UK, they even check for that
20:20:52 <pikhq> Or build one out of 1 oz liquid bottles after security.
20:20:53 <alise> pikhq: You are now being monitored by ECHELON. Congratulations!
20:21:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:21:07 <pikhq> alise: Hooray.
20:21:55 <ais523> IIRC there was someone who cooked a three-course meal on a plane
20:22:01 <pikhq> Guess I'll need to shave off all my hair, go to Japan, and call myself 榛林・神支.
20:22:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, why aren't you using ssl for freenode?
20:22:44 <AnMaster> same goes for alise
20:22:48 <pikhq> ... Cause.
20:22:52 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] is using a secure connection
20:22:54 <alise> AnMaster: Because #esoteric is publicly logged.
20:23:05 <alise> And I don't talk about my rape-murders here.
20:23:08 <AnMaster> alise, yes true, but what about all other channels
20:23:17 <coppro> I'm not on a secure connection because I could care less about whether any of my conversation here is public
20:23:28 <alise> AnMaster: Of which I am present in none, and I would probably never say anything particularly worth monitoring in a technology-related channel, as the channels on this network are suppsoed to be.
20:23:30 <coppro> most of my channels aren't even +s
20:23:35 <AnMaster> coppro, actually I'm on it for nickserv password not to be stolen
20:23:45 <ais523> most of the channels I'm on are either logged, or populated enough that it would be trivial to log them secretly without people noticing
20:23:49 <alise> ECHELON only looks for terrorism-related keywords, apparently. Admittedly, not the most trustable source -- them -- but still.
20:23:53 <alise> They couldn't possibly monitor /everything/.
20:23:59 <coppro> I use a throwaway password for NickServ
20:24:09 <ais523> same
20:24:18 <alise> ais523: trivial to monitor even on small channels if you use e.g. Tor to serve the logs and keep your computer on 24/7 :P
20:24:28 <ais523> among other things, it's too easy to type the password in-channel by mistake
20:24:34 <alise> I use my one and only password for NickServ but that's a mistake of years ago and fixing it is something for another day.
20:24:36 <ais523> alise: on very small channels, you know everyone there
20:24:42 <alise> ais523: And?
20:24:52 <ais523> so if someone's logging secretly, you have quite an idea of who it is
20:24:55 <alise> Why?
20:25:15 <AnMaster> <coppro> I use a throwaway password for NickServ
20:25:16 <AnMaster> well yes
20:25:18 <AnMaster> but still
20:25:23 <alise> But still nothing.
20:25:25 * AnMaster use random generated strings for everything
20:25:34 <fizzie> Even with a throwaway password, someone might identify as you and then do IRREPARABLE HARM to your Freenode reputation!
20:25:42 <alise> AnMaster: I don't think anyone in here could have guessed anything less.
20:25:43 <AnMaster> and I'm paranoid
20:25:46 <alise> You're not exactly unpredictable.
20:25:47 <alise> AnMaster: Really now?
20:25:57 <alise> You are though, on the level of the disorder. :)
20:26:13 <AnMaster> alise, why should I trust you on that ;)
20:27:23 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I'm logging. To an encrypted volume. Private logs. When rotated to cd after 2 years or so: encrypted as well
20:27:38 <AnMaster> bbl food
20:27:48 <alise> Maybe we should institutionalise AnMaster.
20:27:48 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I have privlogs somewhere too, although I don't post them without permission of everyone involved
20:29:17 <alise> How on earth does one start work on such a project as this...
20:29:17 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:29:44 <coppro> alise: step 1: surreptitiously exchange your passports
20:30:32 <alise> coppro: With ... what?
20:30:32 <Sgeo__> http://notalwaysright.com/till-password-reset-do-us-part/6004
20:30:41 <coppro> alise: each other's
20:30:46 <Sgeo__> Who finds the fact that the password is stored more painful than the customer?
20:30:52 <coppro> then AnMaster gets institutionalised and you're free
20:31:07 <alise> coppro: Ooh, nice idea. Actually, scratch that: crap idea.
20:31:14 <coppro> :P
20:31:37 <alise> Sgeo__: Who said it was stored?
20:31:56 <Sgeo__> The fact that the password is visible to the worker in the call center?
20:32:02 <alise> Ah
20:32:04 <alise> *Ah.
20:32:10 <alise> Sgeo__: It's not a password, it's a security "password".
20:32:14 <alise> It being visible is to be expected.
20:32:26 <Sgeo__> Oh >.>
20:33:17 <Sgeo__> Those sorts of passwords are lame and shouldn't exist.
20:33:23 <ais523> it's not a computer password, it's the sort of password you say to a human
20:33:27 <Sgeo__> ALthough I don't know what the alternative is
20:33:39 <ais523> and humans are generally incapable of doing secure hashes in their head, so they generally know the plaintext version
20:33:58 <alise> My secret answers are always woiyaq984U095VWOR'V#[;A@waie()!&"(*¬.
20:34:04 <alise> My mother had a really strange maiden name.
20:34:08 <Deewiant> Exactly that?
20:34:16 <alise> Yes.
20:34:36 <fizzie> ais523: The call center person could still have some sort of an app where it types in what the customer said and gets a yes/no indication back.
20:34:44 <fizzie> (Of course spelling issues and so on.)
20:34:45 <ais523> alise: what about servers that think that ¬ is some sort of SQL injection attack?
20:34:57 <ais523> hmm, we need fuzzy hashes for passwords
20:34:58 <Deewiant> Not " or *?
20:35:00 <ais523> which are yet somehow still secure
20:35:02 <alise> ais523: They're evil people who disrespect my mother.
20:35:07 <coppro> pet peeve: people who say EST when they mean EDT
20:35:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think ' is more common "ooh, a scary character" in SQL than ".
20:35:19 <alise> Pet peeve: Pet peeves.
20:35:23 <Deewiant> Pet peeve: people who use anything but UTC±n
20:35:35 <ais523> Deewiant: generally speaking, people who disallow things in passwords because they're scared of injection attacks don't do so in any particularly logical way
20:35:53 <fizzie> Pet peeve: the last word in the pet business; forget cats and dogs, those are so last-millennium.
20:35:57 <alise> Pet peeve: People who use anything but UTC :P
20:35:58 <ais523> people who know what they're doing just use parameterized queries (or stored procedures, which implies parameterized)
20:36:06 <alise> Pet peeve: pet rocks.
20:36:15 <Deewiant> Pet peeve: peeved pets
20:36:36 <alise> Pet peeve: Pet peeves of "peeved pets"; peeved pets with pet peeves.
20:36:42 <pikhq> Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks.
20:36:43 <alise> ais523: Or ¬SQL :P
20:36:49 <alise> *¬SQL.
20:37:01 <alise> pikhq: I don't know if I sync mine.
20:37:03 <alise> Ooh, I'm so naughty.
20:39:21 <ais523> I sync mine
20:39:29 <ais523> mostly because it's easier than remembering when DST starts and ends
20:39:47 <ais523> Windows always used to ask for confirmation when DST started and ended
20:39:48 <alise> Your computer can do that automatically regardless. :P
20:39:53 <alise> ais523: ah yeah i remember that
20:39:58 <Deewiant> There are non-computer clocks
20:39:58 <alise> "I changed the clock. Did... did I do well?"
20:40:05 <alise> Deewiant: Nonsense.
20:40:16 <Deewiant> Clocks regardless
20:40:26 <ais523> which was especially annoying because I had a computer with a broken RTC (it didn't work while power was off), so you had to set it during boot, and Windows always corrected the correct time to a wrong one after a DST change
20:40:29 <ais523> so you had to change it back
20:40:47 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes, and there's a handy-dandy UTC time source for them.
20:40:50 <pikhq> Thanks, NIST!
20:41:08 <alise> I don't think my physical clocks are expensive enough to synchronise.
20:42:08 <Deewiant> I'm fine with a few minutes' inaccuracy
20:42:47 <Deewiant> It's not like I need the precisely correct time for anything
20:43:04 <ais523> alise: clocks in computers are physical too
20:43:10 <ais523> a virtual clock wouldn't work if you turned the computer off
20:43:14 <Deewiant> Computers are physical
20:43:29 <coppro> my wristwatch is currently 35.5 seconds behind MDT
20:43:31 * coppro fixes
20:43:31 <alise> ais523: Oh, shut up.
20:43:47 <alise> My wristwatch is currently nonexistent.
20:43:49 <Deewiant> MDT?
20:43:59 <alise> I'm, like, an anarchist, going around without all these possessions and reminders of the constant passage of time to weigh me down.
20:44:12 <alise> Deewiant: Mountie Djawesome Time.
20:44:21 <Deewiant> Doubtful
20:44:22 <alise> It's the official timezone of the Federated States of Canadia.
20:44:31 <alise> OTOH, it might just be Calgary's time zone.
20:44:37 <alise> Mountain Time Zone, apparently.
20:44:41 <alise> Close enough.
20:44:54 <alise> MDT = Mountain Time Zone. Hmm.
20:44:55 <Deewiant> Mountain Daylight Time
20:44:58 <pikhq> alise: My pocketwatch is broken.
20:45:04 <alise> *Mountain Daylight Time
20:45:13 <pikhq> So, I have a constant reminder of the constant non-passage of time.
20:45:25 <alise> pikhq: Technically I'm lying as if I was going anywhere as an actual thing I'd take my phone.
20:45:33 <pikhq> "It's *still* 11:11! Awesome!"
20:45:41 <alise> That iPhone sure has been good to me.
20:46:23 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks. <-- agreed
20:47:10 <alise> I have replaced AnMaster with a very small program. Have any of you noticed?
20:47:47 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Thanks, NIST! <-- NIST?
20:48:07 <pikhq> National Instute of Standards and Technology.
20:48:24 <pikhq> Among other things, they've got an atomic clock hooked to a radio broadcast.
20:48:46 <AnMaster> alise, very funny :P
20:49:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh that is US only
20:49:01 <alise> AnMaster: Hey, don't talk back at your creator.
20:49:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, or NA at least
20:49:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:49:20 <AnMaster> alise, you wrote an AI... *kills alise*
20:49:35 <alise> AnMaster: Wow, I didn't code in a strong lampshading of North American...ism. Emergent behaviour.
20:49:45 <alise> AnMaster: Now, I /did/ code in shitty jokes, so you're not surprising me.
20:50:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, a few other countries do something similar.
20:50:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is one in Germany that is usable here in Sweden
20:50:28 <pikhq> And it's all on longwave, so it's kinda hard to not be able to pick up.
20:50:36 <AnMaster> my alarm clock sets from it
20:51:20 <Deewiant> Self-syncing clocks are too hi-fi for me
20:51:27 <alise> Deewiant: Do you ever just walk into Russia and go "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA"?
20:51:34 <alise> If so, why not? Your country borders Russia, you know.
20:51:36 <Deewiant> It's a long walk
20:51:37 <alise> You should do that.
20:51:40 <alise> You should go do that right now.
20:51:43 <alise> You could use a car.
20:51:51 <Deewiant> Then I wouldn't've walked
20:51:59 <alise> You can drive to the border and then walk into Russia.
20:52:04 <alise> This is a great idea and you should do it immediately.
20:52:07 <Deewiant> It's a long drive, too
20:52:12 <Deewiant> It's also completely pointless
20:52:14 <alise> You could take a train.
20:52:16 <alise> No it isn't.
20:52:24 <alise> You'd be in Russia, going "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA".
20:52:27 <alise> Therefore you should do it.
20:52:30 <AnMaster> why is that good?
20:52:41 <alise> Why is goodness good? How can I answer such a tautological question?
20:53:01 <AnMaster> bbl going to play game
20:53:41 <alise> Honestly.
20:55:07 <alise> So, I read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency this morning.
20:55:28 <alise> If you're wondering whether it is good, why? Douglas Adams wrote it; of course it's good, you moron.
20:56:58 <coppro> read it again
20:57:05 <alise> coppro: Why?
20:57:17 <coppro> it needs to be read twice to be fullly appreciated
20:57:38 <alise> Maybe I will; maybe I won't. I have a feeling Dirk would be a whole lot less amusing now that I know exactly how it all happened.
20:57:45 <coppro> you would be wrong
20:57:46 <alise> Also, you have an extra "l" there.
20:57:47 <alise> May I steal it?
20:57:50 <alise> *fully. Thanks.
20:57:54 <alise> I will put it in a museum: "l"
20:58:12 <alise> "Reg, while possessed, unwittingly uses his time machine to amuse a young girl at a college dinner with a magic trick- removing a simple salt cellar and apparently concealing it in an old pot the girl had discovered-, inadvertently bringing back a faulty Electric Monk which the ghost had hoped to use itself- Electric Monks are designed to believe things for you so that the owner does not have to believe them themselves, but this Monk has suffered a fault and
20:58:12 <alise> is incapable of believing anything for longer than five minutes-, but instead lets it go free" --Wikipedia
20:58:47 <pikhq> The nesting is needed.
20:59:19 <alise> They could have at least used parentheses. Or actual dash characters.
20:59:32 <alise> So anyway... I want to write a typesetter. Please talk me out of it.
20:59:32 <Sgeo__> THat Electric Monk thing sounds Pratchett-esque.. or, wait, no, it's what my old religion book claimed about idols
20:59:34 <Sgeo__> Or maybe both
20:59:37 <Deewiant> —–
20:59:39 <pikhq> Yeah well eff you
20:59:50 <alise> pikhq: Did you write it? :P
21:00:02 <pikhq> alise: Nope.
21:00:54 <alise> I had a nerd orgasm at the Prolog reference. :P
21:01:00 <alise> Although, really, the whole book is an extended nerd orgasm.
21:02:30 <Sgeo__> What book?
21:02:43 <alise> Like I said; Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.
21:03:02 <Sgeo__> Oh, should buy that at some point
21:03:49 <alise> Who wants to bet that Knuth will complete TAOCP before he dies? I, in turn, will counter-bet that he won't.
21:04:13 <Deewiant> I think it's rather obvious that he won't
21:04:45 <alise> I think he wants to complete it, and perhaps volume 4 is just his most intensive; I imagine he will be a bit quicker once his death looms.
21:04:56 <alise> I still bet he won't finish it, but I don't rule out the opposite.
21:05:01 <pikhq> Volume 4 is rather intensive.
21:05:02 <alise> Indeed, I hope I'm wrong.
21:05:33 <Deewiant> The first three did come out fairly quickly
21:05:33 <alise> This would be more like insurance: if it turns out Knuth dies before completing TAOCP, I'll be terribly sad; the money will be my payout.
21:05:51 <pikhq> Though volumes 5 through 7 will be on languages.
21:06:01 <Deewiant> So maybe it's possible; I thought they'd taken longer
21:06:22 <alise> Betting against your desired outcome, incidentally, is an awesome method of insurance.
21:07:12 <pikhq> It's been 37 years since volume 3 came out.
21:07:18 <alise> The Knuth Shuffle should be a dance.
21:07:25 <pikhq> Goodness *gracious* Knuth is taking a long time on 4.
21:07:29 <alise> pikhq: Aye, but he's... taking his time with Volume 4. And he sort of took a long break.
21:07:40 <Deewiant> 5 is "planned for 2015"
21:07:57 <alise> Deewiant: So he's probably writing 5 concurrently, then.
21:08:01 <alise> # Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015).
21:08:02 <alise> * Chapter 9 - Lexical scanning
21:08:02 <alise> * Chapter 10 - Parsing techniques
21:08:03 <alise> Well, that's not much.
21:08:14 <alise> Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015).
21:08:15 <alise> Or not.
21:08:18 <pikhq> alise: Volume 4 is coming out this year.
21:08:18 <alise> *estimated in
21:08:22 <pikhq> Or early next year.
21:08:24 <alise> Anyway, volume 4 is the only one divided into subvolumes so far.
21:08:36 <alise> Volume 5 will be a two-chapter affair, like the first three, and so will be quite easy to write in comparison.
21:08:45 <alise> # Volume 6 - Theory of Context-Free Languages, planned.
21:08:50 <alise> I doubt you could write a ginormous volume on that.
21:08:54 <alise> # Volume 7 - Compiler Techniques, planned.
21:08:57 <alise> That'll be a big'un.
21:09:12 <pikhq> Especially given that that's what the book was supposed to be about initially.
21:09:38 <alise> He definitely won't write more than ten volumes; I bet he'll probably stop at around number 8. It's a nice round number in octal, and it lets him write a "tie-it-all-together" volume after seven.
21:09:40 <alise> *after 7.
21:10:58 <pikhq> Oh, volume 6 and 7 will apparently only be written if Knuth can still say anything relevant about their subjects.
21:11:26 <pikhq> If he can't, he will finish at volume 5, thereby having covered the core of imperative programming.
21:11:33 <alise> Knuth has a rather personal definition of "relevant", methinks.
21:11:42 <alise> He considers multi-core processors to be irrelevant, after all.
21:11:54 <pikhq> Yes.
21:12:56 <tombom> oh knuth :(
21:13:10 <tombom> i think he'll shove off his mortal coil before he gets round to all these
21:13:24 <alise> tombom: Nah; he can write a volume quickly, just not volume 4.
21:14:13 <pikhq> Fortunately for us, he is still in good health.
21:14:55 <alise> Knuth will come back as the Second Coming of Jesus. Thereupon he will impart unto us the final volumes of The Art of Computer Programming.
21:16:19 <coppro> don't forget he has to update volumes 1-3 with MMIX
21:16:41 <alise> coppro: Does he plan to?
21:17:29 <Deewiant> How's MMIX better than MIX
21:18:01 <alise> Deewiant: It's less bizarre, IIRC.
21:19:21 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:04 <pikhq> The MMIX updating is actually being done by volunteers, and is mostly finished.
21:21:14 <pikhq> Deewiant: MMIX is a sane RISC.
21:21:25 <Deewiant> What, then, is MIX?
21:21:25 <pikhq> MIX is a 40-year-old, crazy CISC.
21:21:29 <Deewiant> Alright.
21:21:43 <pikhq> It's a base 10 architecture.
21:22:00 <alise> The only sane ISC is an OISC!
21:22:12 <Deewiant> Also illegible
21:23:20 <alise> We need more one-operand OISCs, other than RSSB.
21:23:36 <alise> pikhq: Wrong, it's a binary-decimal architecture.
21:23:46 <alise> When programmed in binary, each byte has 6 bits (values range from 0 to 63). In decimal, each byte has 2 decimal digits (values range from 0 to 99). Bytes are grouped into words of five bytes plus a sign. Most programs written for MIX will work in either binary or decimal, so long as they do not try to store a value greater than 63 in a single byte.
21:23:46 <alise> A word has the range −1,073,741,823 to 1,073,741,823 (inclusive) in binary mode, and −9,999,999,999 to 9,999,999,999 (inclusive) in decimal mode.
21:23:50 <alise> The sign-and-magnitude representation of integers in the MIX architecture distinguishes between “−0” and “+0.”
21:24:12 <alise> Knuth is bat-shit insane.
21:24:19 <ais523> alise: do you consider MiniMAX single-operand?
21:24:42 <alise> ais523: I'm not sure I even consider MiniMAX a thing.
21:24:51 <alise> But, no: "A MiniMAX program consists of a series of 3-word commands".
21:25:00 <ais523> alise: except that they overlap
21:25:07 <ais523> I haven't yet figured out if the commands have 0, 1, 2, or 3 operands
21:25:19 <alise> Well, I'd rather not think about it.
21:27:46 <alise> ais523: Of course, you yourself prompted a similar question later -- or was it earlier? -- with your proof.
21:27:54 <alise> What is the definition of an operand, really?
21:28:06 <ais523> I'm not convinced there is one, in corner cases
21:28:31 <ais523> even look at Haskell, and you'll be flummoxed as to how many operands many of the functions have
21:28:59 <Deewiant> They all have exactly one
21:29:10 <alise> ais523: First line -- agreed; second line -- what?
21:29:15 <alise> You mean currying?
21:29:18 <alise> What Deewiant said.
21:29:33 <ais523> alise: yes, currying
21:29:50 <ais523> "exactly one" doesn't really work, because some take zero
21:30:12 <Deewiant> If you want to call those functions instead of constants, fair enough
21:30:15 <Deewiant> Zero or one
21:31:03 <alise> ais523: a function is something of type ((->) a b) for some a and b.
21:31:18 <alise> ais523: Integer and other such things do not qualify for the title.
21:31:41 <ais523> yep, so you're saying that all functions (i.e. things not of base type) take one operand, everything else takes 0?
21:31:53 <Deewiant> Yep
21:32:27 <alise> ais523: I'm saying that everything else doesn't take things at all, so it's a moot point.
21:38:35 <alise> pikhq: Do you have any idea why paracetamol is popular?
21:39:08 <pikhq> alise: The other non-aspirin painkillers only became legal for OTC use recently.
21:39:58 <pikhq> Paracetamol came to be used OTC in the 50s.
21:42:13 <alise> pikhq: Something wrong with aspirin?
21:42:44 <pikhq> alise: Rough on the stomach, can cause Reye's syndrome.
21:42:54 <alise> Fair enough.
21:42:54 <pikhq> (in children)
21:43:18 <Deewiant> It reduces blood clotting
21:43:30 <alise> I can't swallow pills and needed a painkiller yesterday so I had ibuprofen capsule dust in water.
21:43:46 <alise> If I'd breathed with my nose, my mouth warned me, I would taste the most disgusting taste you can taste. I didn't, though.
21:44:27 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes, but that's generally not an issue.
21:44:37 <Deewiant> It can be, though.
21:44:49 <pikhq> Yes.
21:44:51 <alise> Hooray for ibuprofen, then.
21:45:05 <pikhq> And naproxen sodium.
21:45:22 <alise> "In the UK, 250 mg tablets of naproxen were approved for OTC sale under the brand name Feminax Ultra in 2008, for the treatment of primary dysmenorrhoea in women aged 15 to 50."
21:45:35 <pikhq> ... Wha?
21:45:51 <pikhq> In the US it's approved for general painkiller use and has been since '94.
21:45:52 <alise> pikhq: So, basically, in the UK, no, not hooray for that :P
21:46:07 <pikhq> Very weird.
21:46:48 <alise> pikhq: OTOH, we also class melatonin as a prescription-only medicine, and outlaw cannabis.
21:47:11 <pikhq> I don't think you guys care about safety at *all* with your drugs.
21:47:26 <alise> Or getting stoned.
21:47:30 <pikhq> Not that the US is all that good about it.
21:50:11 <CakeProphet> :o
21:53:37 <Deewiant> ;p
21:57:35 <alise> I like magic-as-a-programming-language a bit more than I should probably like it.
21:58:59 <pikhq> alise: What're you reading now?
21:59:08 <alise> Nothing right now.
21:59:14 <pikhq> Mmm.
22:01:09 <pikhq> Inquiry: should I make curry tonight?
22:01:21 <pikhq> Upsides: curry is delicious. Downsides: curry is work.
22:02:51 <alise> How tired are you?
22:02:58 <pikhq> Not exceptionally.
22:03:02 <alise> Time?
22:03:10 <pikhq> It's currently 16:02.
22:04:38 <alise> When do you plan to curry?
22:04:57 <alise> pikhq: BTW, the original name for the dish is schönfinkel, not curry.
22:05:01 <pikhq> In an hour or two.
22:05:17 <alise> Curry actually originates from Russia, true fact.
22:05:27 <alise> pikhq: Are you feeling particularly motivated?
22:05:40 <pikhq> Not *exceptionally*.
22:05:45 <pikhq> However, curry *is* delicious.
22:13:59 <alise> pikhq: Just ... your situation is so mediocrely balanced that I cannot give any advice.
22:14:02 <alise> Just choose, dammit.
22:14:17 <pikhq> alise: I'm also hungry.
22:14:19 <pikhq> :P
22:14:33 <alise> Do you want to make some fucking curry?
22:14:51 * pikhq covers alise in curry powder
22:15:37 <alise> That ... has disturbing implications given my current "name-gender" and the cursing in my previous line.
22:15:38 -!- calamari has joined.
22:16:26 <pikhq> Hah.
22:16:57 <alise> I'm still covered in curry powder.
22:17:08 <pikhq> Yes. Yes you are.
22:18:35 <alise> ...
22:19:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:20:36 <alise> [awkward silence]
22:22:57 <AnMaster> :P
22:25:10 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:29:12 <alise> "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet.
22:32:26 <Sgeo__> In HS, I took a Java course, meaning I don't need to take one now.
22:32:32 <Sgeo__> However, my teacher was HORRIBLE.
22:32:39 <Sgeo__> And I've heard good things about this teacher
22:32:44 <Sgeo__> So I'm considering taking it anyway
22:33:28 <Sgeo__> Oh crud
22:33:30 <alise> Seriously, you're considering taking a Java course.
22:33:32 <alise> Why are you so stupid? :|
22:33:35 <Sgeo__> I think I'm almost done with the BCS stuff
22:33:51 <Sgeo__> Meaning the rest of my undergraduate career will be boring stuff :/
22:37:05 <Sgeo__> The only Information Security course is an online course :/
22:38:15 <AnMaster> <alise> "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet. <-- what?! where was that mentioned!?
22:38:24 <alise> http://universityofreddit.com/v2/
22:38:33 <alise> It's a shitty look-let's-pretend-to-teach-people-with-reddit-pots.
22:38:56 <AnMaster> alise, who are behind it?
22:39:01 <alise> If you know something, you can teach it! So here's a list of people who promise that they're going to attempt to teach it! Honest! Please ignore the empty threads behind the curtain.
22:39:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:39:19 <alise> Not sure.
22:39:22 <alise> Multiple people, it seems.
22:39:29 <zzo38> I want to make template files for phpBB Can you please tell me if I have done it correctly? http://sprunge.us/WdYI
22:39:37 <zzo38> The #phpbb and #phpbb-coding channels are not help
22:39:44 <zzo38> I want other people's opinion too
22:39:50 -!- nooga has joined.
22:39:53 <alise> I suggest not using phpBB.
22:40:19 <AnMaster> what other FOSS forum software is there?
22:40:35 <AnMaster> of decent quality that is
22:40:37 <zzo38> alise: I am not using phpBB.
22:40:47 <alise> AnMaster: Hmm... none. Forums are shit.
22:40:50 <zzo38> I just want to write a template for it anyways, as well as for other systems later
22:40:53 <AnMaster> alise, well yes
22:40:57 <alise> bbPress would be good, if it wasn't shit.
22:41:06 <AnMaster> alise, that is true for almost everything
22:41:09 <alise> Vanilla would be good, if its author wasn't a shitbag.
22:41:34 <AnMaster> [17373.892849] thinkpad_acpi: EC reports that Thermal Table has changed
22:41:37 <AnMaster> WTH is that
22:42:18 <zzo38> At the current time I don't care which forums softwares are good or not (I'm not installing any of them). I just want to make template files
22:42:52 <AnMaster> zzo38, how are you going to be able to make template files without testing them...
22:43:19 <zzo38> I don't know, is there some way for a simple program to parse templates with filling in example data?
22:43:34 <zzo38> No PHP codes are included in phpBB templates.
22:43:39 <alise> Not for something so complicated as that, most likely.
22:43:41 <zzo38> It uses its own template codes
22:43:52 <alise> Uh ... I'd just install phpBB under the hypothetical situation in which I'd write a phpBB template; which I wouldn't.
22:44:03 <AnMaster> alise, same
22:44:07 <zzo38> I don't even have a database
22:44:08 <AnMaster> alise, but you are talking to zzo
22:44:24 <alise> zzo38: Write an SQL server with MySQL compatibility.
22:44:34 <alise> AnMaster: He isn't an alien, you know, and he's right in the room.
22:44:47 <zzo38> Is there any remote service that can test phpBB templates?
22:45:00 <zzo38> But I'm not even finished writing it yet
22:45:10 <AnMaster> alise, you mean, the least wrong room
22:45:30 <AnMaster> alise, you *could* use mysql
22:45:34 <zzo38> I just want you to tell me if it is correct so far? Please look at the files tell me if it is right so far
22:45:35 <alise> He's right here, in the room.
22:45:44 <alise> zzo38: I know nothing of phpBB, like sane people.
22:45:56 <AnMaster> same as alise on that one
22:46:17 <alise> But kudos for using a shar :P
22:46:35 <AnMaster> yeah
22:48:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:50:34 <alise> Oh no, I'm reading the SCP wiki.
22:50:36 <alise> Stop me.
22:53:48 <alise> brb
22:56:19 <AnMaster> alise, try this link http://tinyurl.com/5cd2rl
22:56:30 <AnMaster> alise, it will prevent you from reading the SCP wiki for a while
22:56:53 <AnMaster> out of the ashes and into the fire
22:57:05 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:03:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:24 <olsner> oh, SCP
23:04:26 <olsner> that's a fun site
23:06:12 <AnMaster> olsner, are you going to click the link I linked?
23:06:26 <AnMaster> err, link that I linked? wtf XF
23:06:27 <AnMaster> XD*
23:06:33 <AnMaster> though correct.. tinyurl
23:07:50 <olsner> AnMaster: no, I've already went to SCP instead
23:08:24 <AnMaster> olsner, it was tvtropes ;P
23:08:35 <Sgeo__> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/revised-entry
23:08:48 <Sgeo__> [strong language]
23:13:11 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:32 <alise> Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors.
23:14:56 <AnMaster> alise, doesn't fit the style
23:15:13 <alise> revised-entry is, I am pretty sure, a joke.
23:15:18 <alise> And no, that does fit the style.
23:15:27 <alise> Well, sorta.
23:17:24 <alise> Sgeo__: Novels -- or, more likely, collections of short stories/novellas -- set around the SCP foundation would be awesome.
23:17:29 <alise> Like the incident reports, only more novelly.
23:17:41 <alise> Unfortunately, you'd need to include all the relevant SCP files before the stories, and that'd probably give stuff away.
23:17:46 <Sgeo__> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/foundation-tales
23:18:02 <alise> Or you could publish every single SCP in a volume you're expected to have, but reading it would be an encyclopedic journey.
23:18:03 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO(0,1))
23:18:31 <alise> Sgeo__: They're probably shitty though.
23:18:33 <alise> Fanfiction usually is.
23:18:36 <CakeProphet> oh... lol
23:18:37 <CakeProphet> wtf am I doing
23:18:39 <CakeProphet> (0,1)
23:18:49 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO (0,1))
23:18:57 <alise> Meanwhile, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-420-j.
23:20:51 <AnMaster> <alise> And no, that does fit the style. <-- yes but it breaks pretty much everything else
23:21:12 <alise> AnMaster: Howso?
23:21:13 <AnMaster> <alise> Like the incident reports, only more novelly. <-- which ones?
23:21:23 <CakeProphet> !haskell :t System.Random.randomRIO
23:21:24 <EgoBot> System.Random.randomRIO :: (System.Random.Random a) => (a, a) -> IO a
23:21:28 <alise> AnMaster: Um... there are a few, like the one where Kondraki tries to kill ... that girl.
23:21:29 <CakeProphet> !haskell :t (<<=)
23:21:33 <CakeProphet> !haskell :t (=<<)
23:21:35 <EgoBot> (=<<) :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
23:21:36 <alise> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/incident-reports-eye-witness-interviews-and-personal-logs
23:21:44 <AnMaster> alise, oh wait the dates are blocked out
23:21:52 <AnMaster> alise, I guess you could always put it at a later date then
23:22:02 <calamari> !help
23:22:02 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:22:13 <alise> AnMaster: true, it breaks real-world chronology
23:22:14 <calamari> !help languages
23:22:15 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:22:20 <alise> didn't think of that
23:22:34 <alise> AnMaster: alternatively, it was covered up
23:22:41 <alise> no survivors = in that area, not in wales entirely
23:22:58 <AnMaster> alise, nuclear carpet bombing of north america covered up?
23:23:06 <AnMaster> uh yeah. Right
23:23:25 <alise> <alise> Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors.
23:23:32 <alise> Some place in Wales == North America
23:23:45 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1)) >>= print
23:23:46 <calamari> CakeProphet: are programs still limited to a single line?
23:23:48 <AnMaster> alise, I meant:
23:23:50 <AnMaster> "Containment Zone X1, formerly North and South America, is to be denied access. Following saturation nuclear bombing on ██/██/████, number of SCP-173 instances has been reduced."
23:23:56 <AnMaster> alise, from section above
23:23:57 <CakeProphet> calamari: don't think so. I've been importing things.
23:23:58 <alise> AnMaster: Oh. Fair enough then.
23:24:07 <CakeProphet> I wish there was some kind of error output
23:24:27 <alise> Working at the SCP foundation would be cool if you were high up enough and weren't prone to nightmares.
23:24:36 <AnMaster> :P
23:24:45 <alise> Myself, even the knowledge that the files were true would give me a mental breakdown.
23:24:56 <AnMaster> oh yeah
23:25:16 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print
23:25:19 <EgoBot> 1
23:25:25 <CakeProphet> ambiguous type from Num apparently.
23:25:36 <CakeProphet> I guess not all Nums are Randoms, essentially.
23:25:49 <alise> CakeProphet: no, it just can't decide which to use
23:26:24 <CakeProphet> !addinterp decisionengine haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print
23:26:25 <EgoBot> Interpreter decisionengine installed.
23:26:33 <CakeProphet> the real decision engine.
23:27:02 <CakeProphet> alise: if only it knew that I didn't care which one it used. :P
23:27:32 <CakeProphet> but I guess this is why explicit type signatures are good.
23:28:08 <alise> GHCi often decides for you.
23:28:22 <CakeProphet> how nice of it.
23:29:15 <CakeProphet> I once thought that random numbers in Haskell were a pain in the ass
23:29:27 <CakeProphet> but, it's really the same as any other language. Sort of.
23:29:32 <CakeProphet> You do have to think slightly more.
23:29:58 <alise> Haskell can be a pain in the ass... its type theory is so limited!
23:30:12 <CakeProphet> I probably need to practice using Control.Monad and related functions.
23:30:27 <calamari> !sh :(){ :|:& };:
23:30:32 <calamari> does that work? :)
23:30:39 <CakeProphet> ...what on earth is that.
23:30:43 <alise> calamari: it'll get killed
23:30:45 <alise> CakeProphet: a forkbomb
23:30:52 <alise> deobfuscating the function name:
23:30:57 <alise> bomb() { bomb | bomb & }; bomb
23:31:02 <alise> can you see how it works?
23:31:13 <CakeProphet> ah.
23:31:18 <CakeProphet> ...er, sort of.
23:31:33 <calamari> python: src/filesysobj.c:132: filesys_obj_check: Assertion `obj->refcount > 0' failed.
23:31:43 <CakeProphet> I'm not very familiar with using subroutines in bash, but I get | and & and all that.
23:32:29 <alise> "A self-hosted implementation in IRP does not exist because if it did it would be quite annoying."
23:32:33 <CakeProphet> I assume it just sits and never halts as it waits for IO
23:32:34 <alise> CakeProphet: It just defines a command, basically.
23:32:34 <calamari> !sh import sys
23:32:36 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/import: /usr/lib/plash/lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.9' not found (required by /lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0)
23:32:44 <alise> CakeProphet: Er... no.
23:32:50 <alise> bomb() { bomb | bomb & }
23:32:53 <alise> So if we call bomb,
23:33:02 <calamari> !sh ls
23:33:03 <EgoBot> interps
23:33:04 <CakeProphet> it... never halts, right?
23:33:07 <alise> it spawns two new bombs in the background
23:33:10 <alise> and halts immediately
23:33:11 <CakeProphet> ah.
23:33:13 <alise> both those bombs then
23:33:17 <alise> spawn two new bombs in the background
23:33:19 <alise> and halt immediately
23:33:20 <CakeProphet> oh shit.
23:33:23 <alise> those 4 bombs then
23:33:25 <alise> spawn two new bombs in the background
23:33:26 <alise> and halt immediately
23:33:33 <CakeProphet> I believe I see the pattern now. :)
23:33:36 <alise> in a few seconds, the system is bogged down.
23:34:29 <calamari> !sh ls /
23:34:30 <EgoBot> bin
23:34:38 <CakeProphet> how does & bind
23:34:41 <CakeProphet> is it
23:34:46 <CakeProphet> bomb | (bomb &)
23:34:53 <CakeProphet> or the whole line?
23:34:58 <alise> i think it's bomb | (bomb &)
23:35:04 <alise> as that's the only version that would keep the processes around.
23:35:07 <CakeProphet> that's how I read it anyways.
23:36:28 <calamari> !haskell import Control.Monad; import System.Posix.Process; forkBomb = forever $ forkProcess forkBomb
23:37:06 <alise> calamari: it is not so flawed :)
23:37:16 <calamari> no it's awesome :)
23:37:24 <AnMaster> alise, wouldn't they explode?
23:37:28 <calamari> wonder how he did it
23:37:40 <alise> AnMaster: wat
23:37:44 <alise> calamari: simple
23:37:45 <AnMaster> alise, bad joke
23:38:29 <alise> calamari: EgoBot runs as its own user, in a chroot. Inside this chroot, it runs plash, which is a sandboxing solution for Debian. He uses this to turn off everything dangerous. Then, he sets extreme ulimits.
23:38:30 <alise> Job done.
23:38:51 <calamari> !sh ls /usr/bin
23:38:51 <EgoBot> 411toppm
23:40:01 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin | tr '\n' ' '
23:40:06 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin | xargs echo
23:40:06 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:40:15 <alise> X11!
23:40:17 <alise> !sh X11
23:40:17 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15104: line 1: X11: command not found
23:40:22 <alise> !sh /usr/bin/X11
23:40:22 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15135: line 1: /usr/bin/X11: is a directory
23:40:25 <alise> !sh /usr/bin/X
23:40:26 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15162: line 1: /usr/bin/X: No such file or directory
23:40:29 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11
23:40:29 <calamari> !sh ps axww
23:40:30 <EgoBot> 411toppm
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:57: Not in scope: `isAlpha'
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot>
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:70: Not in scope: `isSpace'
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot>
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:151: Not in scope: `isAlpha'
23:40:43 <alise> <EgoBot>
23:40:45 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:164: Not in scope: `isSpace'
23:40:47 <alise> <EgoBot>
23:40:49 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:245: Not in scope: `toLower'
23:40:51 <alise> <EgoBot>
23:40:53 <alise> wat
23:40:54 <AnMaster> !sh ls -d /usr/bin/X11
23:40:55 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/X11
23:40:55 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:40:56 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:40:57 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:40:58 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:41:02 <alise> wtf.
23:41:03 <AnMaster> !sh ls -dl /usr/bin/X11
23:41:04 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented
23:41:07 <AnMaster> what
23:41:09 <alise> XDDD
23:41:11 <AnMaster> !sh ls -ld /usr/bin/X11
23:41:12 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented
23:41:17 <alise> !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:41:22 <AnMaster> !sh ls --version | xargs echo
23:41:23 <EgoBot> ls (GNU coreutils) 7.4 Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
23:41:23 <calamari> !sh python
23:41:25 <alise> !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo
23:41:31 <alise> !sh ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo
23:41:32 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 May 2 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> .
23:41:33 <alise> lol !ls
23:41:36 <AnMaster> alise, how can ls -l fail like that
23:41:44 <alise> AnMaster: I dunno, plash disables all sorts
23:41:50 <AnMaster> !run ls
23:41:53 <AnMaster> !run ls -l
23:41:54 <alise> run?
23:41:55 <alise> sh
23:41:55 <AnMaster> oh wait
23:41:59 <AnMaster> `run ls -l
23:41:59 <alise> run is HackEgo
23:42:08 <alise> `run ls -l /usr/bin/X11
23:42:14 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 Jun 19 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> .
23:42:14 <HackEgo> total 564 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jul 3 22:41 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 61187 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.base64 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 45293 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.jpg \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 20 Jul 3 22:41 hack_gregor \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10 Jul 3 22:41 hello.txt \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 166 Jul 3 22:41 help.txt \ -rw-r--r--
23:42:21 <CakeProphet> !haskell main = main
23:42:22 <AnMaster> works better
23:42:23 <AnMaster> strange
23:42:30 <alise> !haskell main@m=m
23:42:41 <alise> !haskell main@m=putStr"dickbutt ">>m
23:42:42 <CakeProphet> main@m?
23:42:43 <AnMaster> `run /usr/bin/X
23:42:45 <HackEgo> No output.
23:42:48 <alise> CakeProphet: yeah
23:42:50 <AnMaster> `run /usr/bin/XOrg 2>&1
23:42:51 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: /usr/bin/XOrg: No such file or directory
23:42:55 <alise> you can do (Foo bar)@x or was it x@(Foo bar)
23:42:59 <CakeProphet> alise: I thought @ was for list matching.
23:43:00 <alise> binds x to (Foo bar) and pattern matches
23:43:06 <AnMaster> `run ls /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo
23:43:08 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 X11 [ a2p addpart addr2line apropos apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-curses aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as awk axi-cache base64 basename bashbug bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bsd-from bsd-write c++
23:43:16 <AnMaster> `run ls -d /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo
23:43:17 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/X11
23:43:18 <alise> so main@m or m@main whichever it is assigns main and "pattern matches" it as m inside the body
23:43:18 <CakeProphet> alise: oh so @ just works on any pattern.
23:45:48 <calamari> !sh tree
23:45:48 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15940: line 1: tree: command not found
23:46:11 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:46:16 <calamari> !sh df -h
23:46:17 <EgoBot> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
23:46:22 <CakeProphet> !sh echo "I am a man from the future"
23:46:23 <EgoBot> I am a man from the future
23:46:41 <calamari> !sh mount
23:46:42 <EgoBot> plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/mount'
23:48:20 <ais523> hmm, presumably mount doesn't work very well if it doesn't run setuid
23:48:37 <calamari> ais523: seems to ave shown me what I wanted to know
23:48:43 <calamari> have
23:50:34 <calamari> !sh cat /proc/meminfo
23:50:34 <EgoBot> MemTotal: 1048792 kB
23:50:48 <zzo38> Here is something in D&D game http://sprunge.us/gGec OK, your turn
23:51:58 <zzo38> !sh echo <CTCP>PING<CTCP>
23:52:11 <chickenzilla> Is the source code of eggbot available ?
23:53:04 <alise> eggbot? XD
23:53:09 <alise> `help
23:53:10 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:53:25 <chickenzilla> Egobot, sorry :)
23:53:34 <alise> chickenzilla: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
23:53:37 <chickenzilla> Someone needs some sleep.
23:53:42 <chickenzilla> Thanks !
23:53:54 <alise> Hey, I have a commit there. Cool.
23:54:31 <CakeProphet> I should run my MUD server off of HackEgo. :P
23:55:30 <calamari> `run ping google.com
23:55:31 <HackEgo> pong
23:56:00 <calamari> !sh ping google.com
23:56:00 <EgoBot> plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/ping'
23:56:42 <calamari> !sh ifconfig -a
23:56:42 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.16397: line 1: ifconfig: command not found
23:57:01 <calamari> `ping
23:57:03 <HackEgo> pong
23:57:13 <calamari> `su
23:57:14 <HackEgo> No output.
23:57:31 <Sgeo__> Why does ping need setuid?
23:57:33 <calamari> `df -h
23:57:34 <HackEgo> No output.
23:57:41 <calamari> `run df -h
23:57:42 <HackEgo> No output.
23:57:50 <calamari> am I using hackego correctly?
23:58:08 <calamari> `ls -a
23:58:09 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16621 \ wunderbar_emporium
23:59:05 <calamari> `run /bin/df
23:59:06 <HackEgo> No output.
00:00:02 <ais523> Sgeo__: because you can't send arbitrary ICMP messages without root privs
00:00:11 <ais523> or you could really snarfle up a network
00:00:41 <calamari> !sh telnet
00:00:42 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.16734: line 1: telnet: command not found
00:02:14 <calamari> !sh uname -a
00:02:14 <EgoBot> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:04:43 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:05:10 <alise> ais523: I wonder how Plan 9 does ping?
00:05:12 <alise> It has no setuid.
00:07:13 <alise> QEMU GUIs: any recommendations?
00:09:20 <alise> ais523: what's the thing to add a user to a group? addgroup?
00:10:56 <alise> Eh, I'll just edit /etc/passwd.
00:11:21 <calamari> alise: I think you're missing an OS somewhere
00:11:40 <alise> calamari: ?
00:11:43 <calamari> oh you meant frontends.. never mind :)
00:17:21 <AnMaster> night
00:18:35 <zzo38> The `ls command is broke O NO
00:18:37 <zzo38> `ls
00:18:52 <alise> O NO
00:18:53 <HackEgo> No output.
00:19:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:19:58 <zzo38> Does it break all the time like that?
00:20:31 <alise> Yeah.
00:20:33 <alise> Gregor!
00:20:40 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:23:16 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/gGec
00:25:39 <ais523> alise: adduser user group, IIRC
00:25:59 <alise> heh i was trying to do kvm not kqemu >_<
00:26:47 <zzo38> That URL is something for D&D game, do you have any opinion of it?
00:26:52 * Sgeo considers just buying Kindle books from now on
00:27:38 <alise> Sgeo: No, don't support the Kindle.
00:27:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why?
00:27:51 <Sgeo> alise, any other suggestions?
00:28:12 <zzo38> I just buy proper books, with paper
00:28:18 <alise> Sgeo: Get some other ebook reader? I'm not sure that there /is/ a good ebook store. Piracy would be a reasonable option.
00:28:26 <alise> zzo38: You can't carry a hundred books around with you -- especially textbooks.
00:28:33 <alise> But indeed, I do enjoy paper.
00:28:43 <alise> I'd like to see any ebook reader match the typography achieved by well-set books.
00:29:09 <zzo38> I do carry around a lot of books when necessary
00:29:29 <Sgeo> There's no Kindle edition of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
00:30:16 <alise> Sgeo: Buy the dead tree version. Adams typeset it himself, on a Macintosh Plus II (IIRC)!
00:30:25 <alise> I know he typeset it himself with MacAuthor, that's in the introduction.
00:31:04 <alise> It has one or two blatant spelling errors though.
00:31:09 <alise> ("tjat" for "that", for instance.)
00:31:35 <alise> Hmm, MacAuthor was MacWriter's codename. But it was 1987, so it would be MacWriter. Curious.
00:31:42 <Sgeo> If I didn't pirate it, who would I be supporting?
00:32:10 <zzo38>
00:32:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
00:32:19 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: evil corporations.
00:32:28 <alise> Sgeo: publishers.
00:32:39 <alise> Sgeo: Perhaps half a penny to his widow.
00:33:43 <alise> Wait, hm.
00:33:46 <alise> Dunno if he was actually married.
00:34:03 <alise> Yes, they did.
00:36:10 <Sgeo> I think I prefer reading on my N1 to physical books
00:36:22 -!- alise_ has joined.
00:37:15 <alise_> What happened to my internet? Huh.
00:38:35 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:39:43 <Sgeo> Ah
00:39:48 <Sgeo> It's nice to read HHGG again
00:39:56 <Sgeo> Although this is only the sample
00:40:00 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:40:14 <alise_> Sgeo: I have a long-term-ish plan to produce a wonderful, (La)TeX-set H2G2.
00:40:30 <alise_> Spurred on by Quadrescence's homemade printing press.
00:40:43 <Sgeo> typesetting
00:40:45 <Sgeo> my head
00:41:01 <alise_> Sgeo: tl;dr it'll look really pretty and you'll feel happy as you read it.
00:41:37 <alise_> Unfortunately, I have been unable to obtain a good text source.
00:41:47 <alise_> I just need one with the italic Guide text marked and with some way to differentiate opening and closing quotes.
00:42:42 * Sgeo upsets at lack of Dirk Gently on Kindle
00:42:46 <Sgeo> I'm half tempted to pirate
00:42:58 <Sgeo> Especially because there's some thorough source for Aldiko
00:43:16 <Sgeo> The thing is, the pirated stuff seems to be crappily done
00:43:27 <Sgeo> Tried a Pratchett book, didn't see any footnotes
00:43:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:44:09 <alise_> Mm; we really need better contraband books.
00:44:18 <alise_> Nicely-set LaTeX. :P
00:44:50 <alise_> I can't wait until .so is available.
00:44:52 <CakeProphet> I can't remember who invented Lisp
00:44:52 <alise_> libc6.so
00:44:54 <CakeProphet> what is his name.
00:44:56 <alise_> CakeProphet: McCarthy.
00:44:58 <CakeProphet> ah right
00:45:03 <CakeProphet> have you see his Elephant language?
00:45:06 <alise_> John McCarthy.
00:45:10 <alise_> CakeProphet: I have read little bits about it.
00:45:16 <CakeProphet> it's not very well documented as it's probably just a concept at this point
00:45:32 <alise_> His mind is still sharp, it seems.
00:45:39 <CakeProphet> yes
00:45:46 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure I fully understand Elephant though
00:46:47 <Sgeo> "End of this sample Kindle book"
00:46:48 <Sgeo> Bleh
00:47:16 -!- coppro has joined.
00:47:34 <CakeProphet> alise_: I like the idea of being able to refer to the past as a means of memory.
00:47:43 <CakeProphet> just unsure of the implementation.
00:48:57 <Sgeo> Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is here
00:49:10 * Sgeo guilties
00:50:02 <Sgeo> alise_, indiscriminatelyfrom?
00:50:11 <Sgeo> Is that from the original, or a typo in this verison?
00:50:18 <alise_> Sgeo: Typo, I am pretty sure.
00:50:23 <Sgeo> :(
00:50:28 <alise_> Sgeo: Fuck it, want me to mail you my paperback?
00:50:50 <Sgeo> I could probably buy it, but I end up losing paperbacks eventually
00:50:53 <CakeProphet> so, if I can fetch arbitrary URLs to egobot
00:51:06 <CakeProphet> there's nothing really stopping me from compiling programming language interpreters/compilers onto it, correct?
00:51:18 <alise_> CakeProphet: indeed. it's easier just to send a revision to Gregor, though
00:51:21 <alise_> also, HackEgo is more suited to that
00:51:31 <alise_> EgoBot doesn't really keep state afaik
00:51:31 <CakeProphet> ah, perhaps
00:51:39 <CakeProphet> er
00:51:39 <Sgeo> Now that I have Internet access whereever I go, I'm more willing to go to the bookstore
00:51:42 <CakeProphet> I meant HackEgo actually
00:51:53 <CakeProphet> the one that has a sandbox
00:52:59 <CakeProphet> I wonder if you could combine functional programming with temporal logic as in Elephant
00:53:46 <Sgeo> Why does The Last Hero have to be one of very few Pratchett books not on Kindle?
00:53:52 <Sgeo> It's one of very few I haven't read
00:53:52 <CakeProphet> The simplest function of the past is the value of some parameter at a given time, say the account balance of a certain person on January 5, 1991. References to the past are rarely this simple.
00:53:56 <CakeProphet> Next we may consider the time of a certain event, say the time when a person was born.
00:53:58 <Sgeo> Erm, Discworld, not Pratchett in general
00:54:00 <CakeProphet> Slightly more complex is the first or last time a certain event occurred or a certain parameter had a certain value, say the most recent time a certain person was overdrawn at his bank.
00:54:04 <CakeProphet> More generally, we may consider the unique time or the first or last time a certain proposition was true.
00:55:36 <CakeProphet> the if-where concept would come in handy for that. if <condition> where <temporal "fetch" operation here>
00:56:38 <CakeProphet> rather than breaking it up into two statements.
00:57:42 <coppro> Sgeo: Because it's 20 centimeters on a side, in larger print, and very illustrated
00:59:55 <alise_> CakeProphet: egobot has a sandbox
00:59:58 <alise_> just not persistance afaik
01:00:04 <alise_> *persistence
01:00:05 <Sgeo> Hm, guess I have to buy a print version
01:00:17 <Sgeo> I wanted all my books from now on to be eBooks :/
01:00:18 <alise_> Sgeo: Stop buying Kindle books.
01:00:31 <Sgeo> I haven't bought any yet
01:00:47 <alise_> Well, don't.
01:01:05 <Sgeo> Why not?
01:01:36 <alise_> Because the Kindle is a closed, DRM'd platform with the ability -- and which has happened, with Animal Farm and 1984 -- to yank books remotely from your Kindle device.
01:01:42 <alise_> Ergo, don't support Amazon's Kindle endeavours.
01:01:51 <Sgeo> Hm
01:01:54 <Sgeo> Alternatives?
01:03:02 <alise_> Well, that's the issue, isn't it.
01:03:21 <alise_> Wonder what Sony readers recommend.
01:03:36 <alise_> http://ebookstore.sony.com/ Hmm.
01:04:02 <alise_> Sgeo: Any ebook store will work, really, as long as they use some format that your reader supports; if it's the Kindle, then ... options are limited.
01:04:14 <alise_> The Kindle doesn't support ebook files, afaik.
01:04:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, what about the Nook? What system does that use? B&N's, presumably.
01:04:22 <Sgeo> I'm using a Nexus One
01:04:57 <alise_> Nook sucks because it's quite slow, the actual-screen is distracting and laggy, and the you-can-only-lend-one-copy-lol is asshattery disguised as a revolutionary revival of the true nature of books.
01:05:14 <alise_> For a nexus one, anything goes; presumably everything has an appropriate reader. But honestly, reading on that screen is not good for you!
01:05:17 <alise_> *Nexus One
01:05:19 <alise_> And you won't enjoy it.
01:06:31 <Sgeo> I'm finding it comfortable so far
01:06:34 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: when/if I complete an Android game app
01:06:35 <Sgeo> In my limited experience
01:06:37 <CakeProphet> you should playtest it. :)
01:06:43 <alise_> Sgeo: Well, you're wrong.
01:06:44 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, will do :D
01:07:03 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: it'll be sort of Metroid-inspired
01:07:18 <CakeProphet> with 360 degree aiming... if it turns out we can actually animate that.
01:07:19 <Sgeo> I've heard Aquaria was.. Metroidy in some way?
01:07:34 <CakeProphet> hmmm, dunno. I've never heard of it.
01:07:47 <CakeProphet> like, I'm really not sure I have the programming experience to pull off my ideas
01:07:52 <CakeProphet> or the game design experience
01:07:55 <fizzie> I've read a dozen (or three) books on the N900 (which I guess has a similar screen) so far, but of course that's just me; I tend to read books with a monospace terminal font in less anyway.
01:07:57 <CakeProphet> but if I can... I think it will sell very well.
01:08:58 <fizzie> (The physical page-flippin keys -- officially volume control, or zoom in browser -- are a nice addition, though.)
01:09:14 <CakeProphet> allow me to clarify: as a puzzle element of the game you can fire missiles that stretch-time in the radius around them upon explosion. You would use this to run by turrets as their otherwise unavoidable bullets are slowed.
01:10:36 <CakeProphet> ...don't even ask me if I can program that. But I've found a sweet open source 2d engine for Android
01:10:39 <CakeProphet> that will make things easier.
01:12:49 <alise_> CakeProphet: that's a great idea. make it free :|
01:13:27 <CakeProphet> well
01:13:29 <CakeProphet> see
01:13:32 <CakeProphet> I need money. :P
01:13:39 <Sgeo> Ads!
01:13:46 <CakeProphet> so what I plan on doing is releasing the code open source but copyrighting the artwork.
01:14:00 <CakeProphet> meh. dunno. perhaps ads would be worthwhile as I would get more total downloads
01:14:13 <CakeProphet> at the very least there will be a free version. Every successful Android game has a free version
01:14:29 * Sgeo wonders if that's true of iOS games as well
01:14:35 <Sgeo> If not, that would be fairly.. sad
01:14:57 <alise_> CakeProphet: I suggest offering support for profit. ...Wait.
01:15:09 <alise_> I just have my general objection to copyright, really. :P
01:15:47 <CakeProphet> alise_: me too, but unfortunately I see the practical benefits. Especially being unemployed.
01:15:48 <Sgeo> Unenforcable != should be legal
01:16:08 <Sgeo> ^^trap I've fallen into way too much
01:16:12 <alise_> Sgeo: Nice of you to be so presumptious of your reasons.
01:16:17 <alise_> I have far deeper arguments about copyright.
01:16:24 <alise_> *of my reasons
01:17:56 <CakeProphet> I really don't have very solid reasons for supporting no-copyright, but I can defend against the typical reasons
01:18:06 <CakeProphet> it's counter-intuitive to capitalism.
01:18:53 <CakeProphet> ah, but I lack the time to open this can of worms
01:18:56 <CakeProphet> I have places to go.
01:19:17 <CakeProphet> talk to you guys later.
01:20:15 <alise_> bye CakeProphet :)
01:29:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why should there be unenforcable laws?
01:30:13 <pikhq> All they do is bloat the legal system, after all.
01:31:16 <Sgeo> They encourage more lawful people to follow them
01:31:33 <Sgeo> There are people who care about following the rules
01:31:56 <coppro> and they get run over by the people who don't
01:31:56 <Sgeo> Although, in my case, I have a tendency to care about that, while philisophically disagreeing with such a mentality :/
01:32:13 <ais523> coppro: not always
01:32:25 <ais523> being seen to break the law, even an unenforceable one, sometimes has other drawbacks
01:32:30 <ais523> like people trusting you less from then on
01:32:34 <coppro> ais523: ssh, I'm playing devil's advocate here!
01:32:46 <alise_> I don't think many people have a strong will to follow unenforcable laws that they do not think are right.
01:32:56 <alise_> And they will still do what they think is right in the absence of unenforcable laws.
01:33:13 <alise_> So they are useless except for people like ais523 -- but then he'd be morally perfect even in the absence of laws.
01:33:14 <pikhq> ais523: Only when the law in question is commonly seen as a reasonable moral code.
01:33:27 <ais523> pikhq: yes
01:33:33 <coppro> in which case, is a law necessary?
01:33:33 <ais523> or if you're in a rather unusual community for some reason
01:33:35 <pikhq> And the thing is, laws *do not exist to dictate morality*...
01:33:46 <coppro> laws exist to codify it
01:34:05 <pikhq> They exist to keep society running.
01:34:09 <alise_> "Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." --Demonax, Roman philosopher and possessor of the most badass name in history.
01:34:12 <pikhq> Don't give a flying fuck about morality.
01:34:35 <ais523> arguably, laws are useful if only as a prediction of how the police and courts will behave
01:34:36 <alise_> Of course, back then there were a lot fewer book-keeping laws and it was mostly legislation of morality.
01:34:39 <coppro> pikhq: Soo... how about them laws against gay marriage?
01:35:04 <pikhq> coppro: Those cause issues in the functioning of society, by causing unequal treatment of members of it.
01:35:06 <ais523> coppro: the ironic thing is, I don't see how definition of what counts as marriage or not has anything to do with morality
01:35:09 <ais523> it's just a definition
01:35:26 <coppro> ais523: Yeah, but it exists as a reflection of morals
01:35:33 <ais523> yep, OK
01:35:37 <ais523> law is effect here, rather than cause
01:35:42 <coppro> right
01:35:45 <alise_> Marriage is between a man and many women, like it always used to be!
01:35:53 <pikhq> Yup, acting in opposition to the purpose of a legal system.
01:35:58 <alise_> Sorry, *many girls
01:36:23 <pikhq> If laws existed to enforce morality, then surely, surely they'd legislate against more immoral behaviors.
01:37:13 <alise_> Of course, the reductio ad absurdum of enforcing morality is extreme fascism. A slippery slope argument, yes, but one that conservatives have been steadily sliding down for quite a while now.
01:38:03 <pikhq> alise_: Is it really a "slippery slope" argument if people are actually advocating it?
01:38:23 <alise_> Well, indeed.
01:38:27 <coppro> pikhq: The problem there is that the distribution of political is unbalanced; the people performing the immoral acts are the ones with all the power
01:38:35 <coppro> s/political/political power/
01:38:46 <alise_> I note that economic immorality goes unpunished.
01:39:07 <pikhq> coppro: Hooray, we have one of the major reasons why legal systems legislate hardly anything based on any reason at all! :P
01:39:08 <alise_> As well as ecological immorality (BP got a slap on the wrist).
01:39:19 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
01:39:26 <ais523> alise_: their stock price plummeted miles, which is more than just a slap on the wrist
01:39:31 <coppro> alise_: It does not go entirely unpunished
01:39:35 <SgeoN1> Going to go eat now.
01:39:36 <ais523> the markets managed to punish them pretty effectively, even if the government didn't
01:39:41 <coppro> it certainly doesn't get punished appropriately
01:39:43 <alise_> ais523: yeah, but they sell fucking /oil/, they'll be back up soon
01:40:09 <alise_> pikhq: Could you please remove the curry powder from my body?
01:40:11 <coppro> the US is going to be on BP's ass for a lot of money for a long time
01:40:44 <ais523> corruption is a real problem in basically every government in the world
01:40:45 <pikhq> alise_: Sure.
01:41:05 <alise_> pikhq: O-kay, this is way too ambiguous.
01:41:11 <ais523> in the US, it's big enough that it's actually noticeable, which is worrying
01:41:22 <ais523> normally they hide it better in first-world countries
01:41:27 <alise_> ais523: on a scale of 1 to 10, how much does anarchism scare you?
01:41:32 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, but they sell *oil*.
01:41:34 <ais523> alise_: pretty highly
01:41:37 <ais523> maybe around 8 or 9
01:41:44 <alise_> ais523: under what definition of anarchism? Somalia?
01:41:55 <alise_> I'm talking about, e.g. anarcho-syndicalism.
01:42:03 <ais523> alise_: a generic one where there's no authority of any kind
01:42:09 <ais523> it would lead to large levels of vigilantism, at least
01:42:12 <Sgeo> Anything that doesn't have a peaceful plan of transition scares me
01:42:14 <pikhq> If BP really wanted to, they could *stop selling oil in the US*.
01:42:19 <ais523> and vigilantes tend to be rather indiscriminate
01:42:26 <pikhq> Thereby causing immediate collapse of giant chunks of infrastructure.
01:42:27 <alise_> ais523: That's a statement that I believe to be unjustified; people have a tendency of vastly oversimplifying anarchism.
01:42:43 <alise_> You can't just say "generic anarchism", the different strains differ *very* much.
01:42:50 <coppro> pikhq: and that would be how the US would get back at BP?
01:42:54 <pikhq> Granted, the supply would eventually be met by other suppliers, but damn would it hurt.
01:42:55 <ais523> alise_: agreed; I was trying to interpret your question
01:42:55 <coppro> oh, I see what you mean
01:42:58 <coppro> yes,
01:43:05 <coppro> there is a third option, though
01:43:08 <ais523> did you hear about the BNP setting up its own private police force in an attempt, they claimed, to reduce crime?
01:43:25 <ais523> it actually made things worse because the real police had to follow them around to stop them doing anything illegal
01:43:25 <alise_> ais523: Yes.
01:43:26 <coppro> the US can expropriate
01:44:10 <alise_> I'm a bit of an anarcho-syndicalist, which is somewhat of a strange position for a strong cynic.
01:44:47 <alise_> I tend to espouse liberal policies (with a libertarian bent wrt social issues), though, as anarchism is so far removed from current political debate as to be almost irrelevant to bring up.
01:45:45 <alise_> Ah, I do love xkill; the indiscriminate chainsaw of the Linux world.
01:45:46 <ais523> ideally, I think you want the impression of strong authority
01:45:58 <alise_> ais523: Ew, no thanks.
01:46:03 <alise_> I don't want to be living in a dictatorship, even a mock one.
01:46:13 <ais523> alise_: I mean, a benevolent one
01:46:21 <ais523> benevolent dictatorships are unlikely to exist
01:46:33 <pikhq> The issue being that there is no suitable benevolent dictator.
01:46:34 <alise_> "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
01:46:39 <ais523> but if you somehow persuade someone they're in a benevolent dictatorship, with an efficient police force, when there is in fact no government
01:46:41 <pikhq> "Suitable" includes "immortal".
01:46:58 <ais523> that would seem to be optimal, but unfortunately impossible
01:47:12 <alise_> ais523: what about an insane sociopath who just wants to kill people and cares not of the consequences?
01:47:25 <alise_> so he's killed, so what? at least he killed someone first
01:47:29 <ais523> you'd need an actual police force
01:47:35 <alise_> "when there is in fact no government"
01:47:41 <ais523> yep
01:48:00 <ais523> they'd have to be too terrified of the nonexistent government to become corrupt
01:48:14 <alise_> nonsense; sociopaths have no sense of morals, they simply don't care
01:48:30 <alise_> they can fully believe the government will kill them but if they're insane enough to want to go on a killing spree whatever the consequences, why should they care?
01:48:47 <alise_> anyone know how to use kqemu?
01:48:48 <ais523> alise_: I mean, you have people who actually stop them, even the citizens at large
01:48:57 <alise_> ais523: why? the police force will do it.
01:49:01 <ais523> and you install kqemu, then run qemu with sudo
01:49:08 <ais523> alise_: hmm
01:49:27 <ais523> you tend to get a lot of local crime-suppression even in, say, the UK
01:49:42 <alise_> well, in the UK we're all nosy, paranoid fuckers.
01:49:58 <ais523> especially in places which have good reason to fear a crime, like banks and jewelery stores
01:50:21 <alise_> "don returned to Case Institute for his Senior Year. At the graduation ceremonies, they
01:50:21 <alise_> were handing out the diplomas in alphabetical order. But they passed over don when they
01:50:22 <alise_> got to the k’s. (Maybe lowercase k comes after Z). After all of the diplomas were handed
01:50:22 <alise_> out, they asked don to step up on the platform. They said for the first time in the history of
01:50:22 <alise_> Case Institute, they were conferring a Masters Degree on a student that had been pursuing a
01:50:22 <alise_> Bachelors Degree."
01:50:49 <alise_> So, is KVM the new KQEMU?
01:51:07 <alise_> KQEMU, was initially released free of charge but was licensed as a closed-source proprietary product. However, since version 1.3.0pre10[5], released on February 5, 2007, it has been available under the GNU General Public License. QEMU versions starting with 0.12.0 no longer support KQEMU.[6]
01:51:20 <alise_> Eh.
01:51:39 <coppro> KQEMU is an accelerator module
01:51:51 <alise_> coppro: no, it's deprecated.
01:51:54 <alise_> Regular QEMU will be fine.
01:51:57 <alise_> Just slow.
01:52:00 <coppro> It takes some code and executes it directly
01:52:06 <coppro> it will work on any processor
01:52:08 <coppro> err
01:52:09 <coppro> any x86
01:52:39 <coppro> KVM, on the other hand, requires a processor capable of doing virtualization directly
01:53:05 <alise_> is KVM a bitch to get working?
01:53:15 <coppro> dunno
01:53:32 <coppro> I haven't tried it on a machine capable
01:54:13 <alise_> I guess QEMU will be fast enough for Plan 9.
01:54:13 <SgeoN1> Alise, when will you read Fine Structure?
01:54:23 <alise_> Sgeo: *alise; and when I'm out of the unit and in another country.
01:55:46 <alise_> Wow, the Plan 9 mouse is slow.
01:58:11 <alise_> ais523: wow, recursive descent was preceeded with the ridiculous "recursive ascent":
01:58:12 <alise_> Ned Irons preceded our invention with a Recursive Ascent technique that starts off by
01:58:12 <alise_> calling the primary routine, which makes the assumption that it should call the expression
01:58:12 <alise_> routine, which makes the assumption that it must be in an assignment statement and calls
01:58:12 <alise_> that routine. Obviously, expressions appear in places other than assignment statements. So
01:58:12 <alise_> his technique makes mistakes. It recovers from the mistakes by leaving tracks that allow it
01:58:13 <alise_> to find its was back to where the erroneous assumption was made. It then makes another
01:58:15 <alise_> guess and starts working its way up the syntax chart again. Ned’s technique is obviously
01:58:17 <alise_> slower, does not exercise as tight control, and gives pretty poor error messages. He imple-
01:58:19 <alise_> mented his parser on a CDC 1604 at he University Of Princeton in 1960. He was working
01:58:21 <alise_> with a group from the University Of Pennsylvania.
01:58:45 <ais523> alise_: that's pretty much just backtracking, isn't it?
01:58:51 <ais523> wait, no
01:58:52 <alise_> ais523: but crazy
01:58:54 <ais523> that really is insane
01:59:10 <alise_> how does ANYONE think of that before recursive descent?
01:59:14 <ais523> although, I suppose it could have helped to inspire the brilliantly crazy LR(1)
01:59:23 <ais523> which vaguely resembles that, except actually works
01:59:36 <alise_> LR(0)! fuck yeah!
01:59:47 <ais523> it's a pity language designers don't use LR(1) so much nowadays, it's all LR(0), LL(1), and the occasional LALR(1)
02:00:04 <ais523> INTERCAL is LR(infinity), btw
02:00:06 <alise_> which one is the most complex of those?
02:00:10 <alise_> LALR is the most complex right?
02:00:16 <ais523> LALR's a special case of LR
02:00:24 <alise_> hmm
02:00:26 <alise_> is LL more general than LR?
02:00:28 <ais523> which isn't quite as good, but uses a fraction of the memory
02:00:29 <alise_> or vice-versa?
02:00:35 <ais523> and LR's more general than LL
02:00:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:00:39 <alise_> anything more general than LR?
02:00:46 <ais523> I mention LALR(1) because that's what yacc does
02:00:53 <ais523> and yes, bison supports GLR(1)
02:01:18 <ais523> which is a sort of nondeterministic LR(1)
02:01:25 <ais523> I mean, more nondeterministic than LR(1) normally is
02:01:29 <alise_> GLR(infinity)
02:01:33 <ais523> and thus is capable of handling /any/ lang
02:01:46 <alise_> oh, so GLR(infinity) isn't more powerful
02:01:46 <alise_> aww
02:01:49 <alise_> ais523: err, no
02:01:57 <ais523> although, GLR(2) would be a lot more efficient than GLR(1) at a lang that was actually LR(2)
02:01:59 <alise_> ais523: it can't handle, say, ZFC, can it?
02:02:07 <ais523> alise_: err, any TC-parseable lang
02:02:07 <alise_> after all, that's a language, technically
02:02:32 <ais523> in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse...
02:02:58 <coppro> `quote <ais523> in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse...
02:03:02 <alise_> coppro: addquote
02:03:11 <coppro> `addquote <ais523> in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse...
02:03:14 <HackEgo> No output.
02:03:20 <alise_> Oh. HackEgo's broken. Sorry.
02:03:20 <ais523> `quote theoretically
02:03:27 <HackEgo> No output.
02:03:31 <ais523> ugh, how did it break?
02:03:36 <HackEgo> No output.
02:03:49 <alise_> ais523: I have a pet theory that #esoteric is one of the best places to find computer science talent in the world; the only problem is that there's a lot of fluff here too, like me and AnMaster, and the channel is so tiny. :)
02:04:11 <ais523> alise_: I wouldn't be surprised
02:04:18 <ais523> well, it depends on what you're trying to do
02:04:30 <coppro> thanks, eBay: 31 items found <lists 3 items>
02:04:35 <ais523> there's a kind of problem which is simultaneously theoretical computer science, and engineering
02:04:42 <ais523> and it's that sort of problem that #esotericers are good at
02:04:43 <alise_> and that's your problem :P
02:04:50 <ais523> it comes up surprisingly often, but people don't recognise it
02:05:20 <alise_> ais523: outside of academia, otoh, our solutions to those problems are ... well ... not accepted :P
02:05:30 <coppro> alise_: you don't consider me fluff? yay!
02:05:35 <coppro> :P
02:05:42 <alise_> coppro: indeed not! although i don't know if you do any actual cs
02:05:47 <ais523> alise_: nah, my solutions at least often are accepted
02:05:54 <pikhq> alise_: A lot of computer science talent, but we seem to *all* suffer from project ADD.
02:05:57 <alise_> certainly if anyone wants a /programmer/ they'll find an excellent one here
02:05:58 <coppro> alise_: Not as of yet
02:06:03 <ais523> although I normally need a complete rewrite to get them in anything close to language that other people understand
02:06:17 <coppro> I'm starting my CS degree next year
02:06:25 * SgeoN1 wonders what he's considered
02:06:26 <alise_> coppro: congratulations; you'll then know nothing about CS
02:06:35 <ais523> coppro: good thing you're in Canada rather than the UK; otherwise I might end up teaching you
02:06:38 <alise_> unless the CS curriculum has improved significantly since the last time I looked.
02:06:39 <ais523> and that would be really embarassing, probably
02:06:42 <alise_> ais523: good thing? bad thing!
02:06:52 <pikhq> alise_: Not really.
02:06:54 <coppro> alise_: It's at UW, which is known for teaching actual CS
02:07:01 <alise_> ais523: what uni do i need to go to to get taught by you, birmingham?
02:07:05 <ais523> yes
02:07:07 <alise_> coppro: Even *MIT* have ruined their CS curriculum.
02:07:09 <pikhq> In general, a CS degree is a degree in being able to program.
02:07:11 <alise_> M I fucking T!
02:07:14 <alise_> ais523: i'm there
02:07:19 <ais523> but I'm not actually all that good at teaching
02:07:26 <alise_> pikhq: except you can't handle fizzbuzz or linked lists
02:07:35 <ais523> nearly all the students hate me, except for contradictory reasons
02:07:46 <alise_> ais523: i don't really care, it'd be cool to meet you :P
02:07:57 <alise_> and you could just give me A++++++++++ on everything since clearly i am awesome
02:08:04 <alise_> This scenario is realistic.
02:08:04 <SgeoN1> Hmm. I was considering going to Stony Brook postgraduate so I could get an actual CS degree and education.
02:08:05 <ais523> nah, that would be bias
02:08:09 <ais523> and besides, marks are percentages
02:08:14 <alise_> Sgeo: augur went to stony brook at some point
02:08:19 <alise_> ais523: 111%, then!
02:08:21 <ais523> it's bad enough when you're trying to anonymously mark someone whose ID number you have memorised
02:08:23 <alise_> I did one better than 110%.
02:08:38 <coppro> Unless there are some serious issues with my academics, I'm going to try for a double major in pure math too
02:08:51 <pikhq> alise_: Uh... That's like first or second semester...
02:09:04 <augur> i did indeed!
02:09:09 <alise_> pikhq: You do realise that plenty of people get a Bachelor's degree in CS without actually being able to do one bit of CS?
02:09:22 <SgeoN1> Currently the major I'm in is .. a bit less than pure programming, I'd say
02:09:23 <pikhq> alise_: Somehow, yes.
02:09:31 <alise_> Because (a) people are stupid and (b) a lot of universities suck.
02:09:39 <alise_> So, yeah, a CS degree counts for nothing these days.
02:09:39 <pikhq> The CS programs I've seen at least teach *programming* well.
02:09:39 <ais523> the quality of some of the students worries me, although most of them are very good
02:09:47 <ais523> also, I'm pretty certain that Java does not make a good first language
02:09:54 <ais523> although, it's the one I have to teach anyway
02:09:58 <pikhq> Well, except for that really retarded one that considered C a very hard, optional thing.
02:10:06 <SgeoN1> On the plus side, I'm at the top of every computer class... which says more about the other students, really
02:10:22 <pikhq> Rather than, y'know, essential to *practical* programming these days, regardless of whether or not you use it.
02:10:45 <coppro> SgeoN1: Stop being so self-deprecating, already
02:11:02 <alise_> coppro: Sgeo is simultaneously too self-deprecating and too naive.
02:11:07 <alise_> A difficult combination to achieve.
02:11:11 <ais523> I liked my (electronic engineering) degree; the first languages they taught us were C and asm, simultaneously
02:11:19 <ais523> I suppose electronic engineers rarely work with anything higher-level
02:11:21 <alise_> pikhq: I don't think CS courses should concentrate on practical programming at all.
02:11:26 <alise_> pikhq: Programming, yes; practical, no.
02:11:26 <augur> SgeoN1: whats your interest in stony brook?
02:11:36 <coppro> IIRC the current program at UW is Scheme then into Python or C (student's choice)
02:11:40 <alise_> pikhq: C is probably worth teaching because if you can't understand pointers you lose.
02:11:53 <alise_> coppro: which will you choose, do you think?
02:12:13 <alise_> I'd choose C; with Python there'll be an awful lot of Python-related cruft and rubbish class-ery.
02:12:19 <alise_> It's hard to bullshit C, especially if you start with Scheme.
02:12:20 <SgeoN1> Augur, a decent CS curriculum, rather than "Computer Programming/Information Systems"
02:12:21 <pikhq> alise_: "Practical" in the sense of "if you do any nontrivial programming at all, you will need to understand C."
02:12:25 <ais523> definitely choose C
02:12:33 <ais523> Python will be easier to pick up later, among other things
02:12:37 <coppro> I know both languages
02:12:39 <alise_> Python is a language to get shit done in, not a language to understand things in.
02:12:48 <alise_> Among the reasons are the fact that Guido doesn't know shit himself :P
02:12:51 <ais523> and learning C helps get rid of a whole bunch of awful misconceptions about how computers work
02:12:59 <alise_> coppro already knows both
02:13:02 <coppro> I don't have very many of those either
02:13:02 <augur> SgeoN1: ahh, yes. i would suggest UMD cause thats where i am but i dont know if they have much hardcore computer science
02:13:03 <alise_> but I think he should pick C, personally
02:13:17 <augur> theres a CS department, ofcourse, but i dont know if theres anything theoretical being done
02:13:20 <coppro> I'll probably pick C
02:13:25 <SgeoN1> This channel humbles me.
02:13:27 <alise_> VICTORY HAHAHA
02:13:34 <augur> SgeoN1: why??
02:13:39 <alise_> SgeoN1: humbled me once too, just find a niche
02:13:42 <alise_> i haven't, mind you
02:13:44 <ais523> and yes, the whole situation with Python and tail-call optimisation is a really depressing one
02:13:54 <coppro> yes, yes it is
02:14:02 <ais523> there are other depressing things about Python, but that's the biggest one
02:14:07 <alise_> my life goal is basically to be a dilettante with some specialist subjects on the side.
02:14:16 <ais523> (meanwhile, Perl has a special operator for TCO, and just for fun, calls it "goto")
02:14:38 <ais523> (it has three goto statements, in fact; but the one that does TCO is the only one that Perl experts actually recommend using)
02:14:39 <coppro> Python's easier, but I will probably learn more in C
02:14:45 <SgeoN1> What niche would I have, besides virtual world stuff?
02:14:49 <coppro> ais523: three of them?
02:14:51 <coppro> which are they?
02:15:04 <SgeoN1> Which isn't a particularly relevant niche?
02:15:20 <alise_> ais523: you know VPRI?
02:15:23 <coppro> that was at ais523
02:15:26 <ais523> coppro: label: goto label; my $labelname="label"; goto $labelname; sub tco_infinite_loop { goto &tco_infinite_loop; }
02:15:27 <pikhq> goto, goto &, and goto (with a labeled loop), IIRC.
02:15:28 <alise_> SgeoN1: who knows. play with everything, find something you like
02:15:40 <pikhq> Ah, right, that was it.
02:15:44 <alise_> SgeoN1: stop being so damn nostalgic; stop caring so much about recognition... and do interesting stuff instead.
02:15:45 <ais523> the second form makes the heads of good-practices people explode
02:15:49 <ais523> but doesn't really have any other purpose
02:15:50 <coppro> no kidding
02:15:52 <SgeoN1> I think the self depreciation is partially because Alise got to me. And dang it, I need to fix that cap
02:16:03 <alise_> *alise
02:16:10 <SgeoN1> Like I said.
02:16:26 <alise_> :P
02:16:31 <alise_> I never meant to make you hate yourself >_<
02:16:35 <coppro> SgeoN1: You're very intelligent, we all just think you're a little quirky because you spend your time on games that were in fashion 20 years ago
02:16:36 <pikhq> ais523: goto & is analogous to using jmp to a function in assembly, I'm pretty sure.
02:17:01 <pikhq> SgeoN1: If you were an idiot we would have ignored you long ago.
02:17:02 <SgeoN1> coppro, 15
02:17:06 <alise_> I think if SgeoN1 gets over the severe case of nostalgia, and gets over the extreme caring about recognition, he could do great things.
02:17:14 <ais523> pikhq: yes, although not implemented the same way
02:17:18 <alise_> ...and replying to that with "15" just proves coppro's point.
02:17:23 <pikhq> ais523: Yes.
02:17:35 <ais523> it basically jumps out of one function and into another without any of the typical prologue/epilogue
02:18:12 <ais523> which is what TCO /is/, if you think about it
02:18:36 <coppro> I've never thought about it any other way
02:18:51 <augur> SgeoN1: whats your particular interest in CS?
02:19:29 <SgeoN1> Partially knowing how things work, partially keeping up with this channel
02:19:30 <ais523> coppro: if you look at it at a higher level (say, the one Scheme works in), it's more like calling a function then deleting the second-top stack frame
02:19:38 <ais523> which is actually how it's implemented in INTERCAL
02:20:05 <ais523> hmm, I was in a car with my supervisor for several hours
02:20:09 <alise_> "A type-safe embedding of x86-64 assembly into Haskell"
02:20:10 <alise_> /orgasm
02:20:20 <ais523> and we were discussing language features
02:20:38 <ais523> it seems that INTERCAL's NEXT FROM is actually used in a few mainstream mathematical models, although ones I hadn't heard of
02:20:39 <coppro> ais523: True.
02:20:43 <ais523> it /is/ a very neat command
02:20:51 <coppro> which is NEXT FROM again?
02:21:12 <coppro> I haven't intercaled in a while
02:21:35 <ais523> it causes the target line to do a function call to the current line, when it's encountered
02:23:27 <alise_> Wow, Plan 9 is installing slowly.
02:23:42 <alise_> ais523: explicit entry points :)
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02:23:58 <coppro> ais523: okay, this is a sign that I need to read the spec again
02:25:01 <ais523> read the Revamped Manual, or maybe CLC-INTERCAL's spec; NEXT FROM's been in CLC-INTERCAL for ages, but was added to C-INTERCAL only recently
02:25:04 <ais523> so it's not in the older manual
02:25:20 <alise_> ais523: ok, ridiculous idea for a language: we have eax-ish variable @. [<] marks an entry point, @ here will be function argument, [>] marks an exit point, @ is return, e.g. [<] x = @; @ = x + 2 [>]. [<label] specifies that the entry comes from a specific label, like come from; [>label] specifies that we jump to this label to return
02:25:34 <alise_> it's like generalised come from / goto with structure of a sort
02:25:42 <coppro> oh, it's just COME FROM that saves the address
02:25:53 <coppro> boring; that makes it too easy
02:25:58 <ais523> coppro: no, it's NEXT FROM that saves the address, COME FROM doesn't
02:25:59 <coppro> lectures are the proper way to go
02:26:02 <ais523> also, NEXT saves the address
02:26:07 <ais523> GO TO wouldn't, but doesn't exist in INTERCAL
02:26:13 <SgeoN1> eax?
02:26:20 <coppro> ais523: yes, that's what I mean; NEXT FROM is COME FROM except that it does save the address
02:26:29 <ais523> yes
02:26:56 <ais523> I really like modern INTERCAL's flow structure; easy to grasp how it works and remember it, flexible enough to do all sorts of interesting things, yet unlike other languages
02:27:02 <coppro> SgeoN1: what about it?
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02:27:07 <ais523> if you haven't seen continuation.i, try reading it sometime
02:27:51 <SgeoN1> As far as I know, it's a register, but context implies that there's something special about it.
02:28:20 <ais523> SgeoN1: it's a register that's commonly used to pass arguments in 32-bit x86 ABIs, IIRC
02:28:31 <ais523> and to pass results
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02:33:45 <alise_> ais523: any thoughts about my [<], [>] idea? it's not that interesting I guess
02:33:48 <alise_> but it does sort of unify stuff
02:34:05 <alise_> [<] and [>] can be read as [<any] and [>any], i.e. "we have a language construct that specifies the label to be used here"
02:34:08 <ais523> alise_: it's sort-of how I think about INTERCAL
02:34:35 <alise_> so that e.g. "foo(?foo_result); [foo_result] result = @" works
02:34:43 <alise_> because the [>] gets reinterpreted as [foo_result], i.e. jump to foo_result
02:34:49 <alise_> but then we can't call functions
02:34:52 <alise_> only enter
02:34:58 <alise_> via a goto thing
02:35:00 <alise_> but that's dynamic
02:35:01 <alise_> so we have
02:35:39 <alise_> @ = 42; foo : foo_entry : foo_result; [foo_entry] [foo_result] result = @;
02:36:00 <alise_> where f:a:b means "set up f's [<] points to be [<a], and its [>] points to be [>b]"
02:36:06 <alise_> maybe foo < foo_entry > foo_result is a nicer syntax
02:36:24 <alise_> so it's like... voluntary come from :)
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02:44:08 <alise_> ais523: hmm, I can't see plan 9 ping doing anything special
02:44:13 <alise_> but then the default user has a lot of privileges
02:46:57 <alise_> Why the hell isn't there a type-safe database.
02:48:10 <ais523> alise_: many SQL databases are vaguely type-safe
02:48:17 <ais523> and could probably be made more so without major issues
02:48:18 <alise_> Yeah, but not in the good kind of way.
02:48:25 * alise_ writes a DB monad
02:57:32 <alise_> ais523: what power does recursive descent have? i forget
02:57:36 <alise_> it doesn't really have lookahead
02:57:38 <alise_> without, say, ungetc
02:57:43 <alise_> then it's... R(1), if that even makes sense?
02:58:06 <ais523> which method is recursive descent, again?
02:58:16 <alise_> one element in the syntax tree becomes a procedure
02:58:20 <alise_> x := 'a' y 'b' becomes
02:58:27 <alise_> x() { char('a'); y(); char('b') }
02:58:38 <ais523> it's going to be something(0) in that case
02:58:43 <ais523> possibly LL(0)
02:58:52 <ais523> but I can't remember exactly how the naming scheme works
02:58:55 <alise_> wrong
02:58:56 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_descent_parser
02:58:57 <alise_> LL(k)
02:59:09 <alise_> i mean, ofc, i elided the accept stuff
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03:02:12 <alise_> i quite like recursive descent
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03:02:30 <alise_> hmm... i think you can make an LL(infinity) recursive descent
03:02:40 <alise_> if input is an array, just have accepting(symbol, n)
03:02:44 <alise_> where n = 0 produces current symbol
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03:06:45 <alise_> hmm, an a^nb^nc^n parser in C is oddly ugly
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03:10:30 <alise_> int anbncn(char *s)
03:10:30 <alise_> {
03:10:30 <alise_> #define Ntimes(c) while (*s++ == c) i++; if (i != n) return 0; i = 0
03:10:30 <alise_> int i = 0, n = 1;
03:10:30 <alise_> if (*s++ != 'a') return 0;
03:10:30 <alise_> while (*s++ == 'a') n++;
03:10:32 <alise_> Ntimes('b');
03:10:34 <alise_> Ntimes('c');
03:10:36 <alise_> return 1;
03:10:38 <alise_> }
03:10:40 <alise_> best i have so far
03:10:42 <alise_> kinda ugly really
03:13:02 <alise_> ais523: ok, insane idea: post-emptive multitasking
03:13:17 <alise_> it runs the two programs, *then* decides the best times to switch
03:13:24 <pikhq> Waitwhat?
03:13:43 <ais523> alise_: brilliant
03:14:11 <alise_> presumably, this would somehow take place retroactively
03:14:49 <pikhq> Clearly, a use for TARDIS in Befunge.
03:14:55 <alise_> you could perhaps implement this by somehow "speculating" on how the program is going to run, and deciding based on that; then, if it turns out you chose wrong, try and multitask 'the opposite way' to correct for your errors (i.e. if a process was neglected, give it disproportionate time) -- and update your prediction values accordingly
03:15:00 <alise_> pikhq: *TRDS
03:15:10 <pikhq> Ah, yes.
03:15:29 <pikhq> Time and Relative Dimension in Space, not Time And Relative Dimension In Space.
03:15:32 <pikhq> :P
03:23:41 * Sgeo is getting a C# book for free soonish
03:24:58 <Sgeo> All I have to do is tutor someone and make more money
03:25:28 <coppro> that doesn't count as free
03:27:59 <alise_> One, you can't tutor someone -- nothing personal, it's just that very few people can teach effectively.
03:28:04 <alise_> Two, why the fuck do you want such a book?
03:28:07 <alise_> Three, yeah, that's not free.
03:29:24 <Sgeo> No money is leaving my hands
03:30:03 <alise_> you have a stupid definition of free, then
03:30:15 <Sgeo> If $10/h really does balance out with what my time is worth (I'm bad at knowing how much money is worth) then yes, the book is free
03:30:46 <ais523> you have to be pretty young for an hour's work to only be worth $10, if the work's on someone else's terms rather than yours
03:33:14 <alise_> your time is only worth $10/h if you're retarded
03:33:32 <Sgeo> :/
03:33:44 <Sgeo> Does being clueless with money count as "retarded"?
03:33:47 <Sgeo> =P
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03:40:59 <coppro> Is it safe to dd into a filter and then into dd for the same file?
03:41:39 <alise_> Too hot in here...
03:41:45 <alise_> coppro: I don't think so.
03:41:55 <alise_> The last dd process will start immediately and open the file in write mode, erasing it.
03:42:11 <coppro> does this apply to a device?
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03:44:15 <alise_> coppro: probably not
03:44:19 <alise_> coppro: well
03:44:23 <alise_> coppro: streaming device or block device?
03:44:26 <alise_> dunno the correct terms
03:44:27 <coppro> uh
03:44:35 <coppro> block
03:44:43 <coppro> (the other one is character btw)
03:44:51 <alise_> coppro: i... wouldn't risk it, tbh.
03:44:57 <alise_> try it with a floppy device or something :P
03:45:27 <coppro> I'd have backups, and the whole point would be to prevent idiot support agents from having access to my files while still making it relatively quick for me to undo
03:46:49 <alise_> Idiot support agents?
03:47:16 <coppro> well, guys fixing my computer
03:50:47 <alise_> why do you have such guys?
03:51:33 <coppro> warranty
03:52:02 <coppro> (the "oops I hit my computer will you fix it pls" kind)
03:52:06 <coppro> +with a hammer
03:53:44 <alise_> coppro: well ... don't hit it
03:59:01 <ais523> hmm, I have to hit this computer occasionally to stop it overheating
03:59:12 <ais523> it took a while to figure out where to hit it to stop the fan getting stuck
03:59:51 <alise_> yawn.... 4am
03:59:55 <alise_> ais523: when did you wake up?
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04:09:14 <alise_> ais523: omfg, esolang mailing list activity
04:09:55 <ais523> I forgot that existed
04:09:58 <ais523> (and am not subscribed)
04:11:01 <alise_> Caller: comex
04:11:01 <alise_> Judge: Wooble
04:11:03 <alise_> this can only go well
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04:11:40 <ais523> alise_: heh
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04:12:02 <ais523> in B, I just judged that a scam that I myself had tried to take advantage of (better than the original scamster) worked
04:12:06 <ais523> I wonder if people will appeal?
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04:14:06 <alise_> how would $you write an a^nb^nc^n parser in C?
04:14:26 <ais523> does it have to shortcircuit?
04:14:28 <alise_> i.e. f(s) iff s = "a"^n "b"^n "c"^n [anything]
04:14:35 <alise_> ais523: no, just that specification above
04:14:37 <alise_> the only concern is elegance
04:14:39 <alise_> and simplicity
04:14:40 <ais523> the simplest way would probably be to count as, count bs, count cs, compare
04:14:48 <alise_> indeed
04:14:57 <ais523> and simplest way to count a particular letter is just to read until you get a different letter, then ungetc it
04:15:01 <ais523> ungetc was invented for that purpose
04:15:32 <alise_> int anbncn(char *s) {
04:15:32 <alise_> int i,j,k;
04:15:32 <alise_> for(i=0; *s++ == 'a'; i++);
04:15:32 <alise_> for(j=0; *s++ == 'b'; j++);
04:15:32 <alise_> for(k=0; *s++ == 'c'; k++);
04:15:32 <alise_> return i==j && j==k;
04:15:34 <alise_> }
04:15:36 <alise_> It's on a string.
04:15:45 <alise_> this accepts the empty string though with junk after it
04:15:47 <alise_> which isn't really kosher
04:15:50 <alise_> so let's say it has to check end of string
04:16:02 <ais523> just check for \0 after the comparison
04:16:11 <alise_> int anbncn(char *s) {
04:16:11 <alise_> int i,j,k;
04:16:11 <alise_> for(i=0; *s++ == 'a'; i++);
04:16:11 <alise_> for(j=0; *s++ == 'b'; j++);
04:16:11 <alise_> for(k=0; *s++ == 'c'; k++);
04:16:12 <alise_> return !*s && i==j && j==k;
04:16:14 <alise_> }
04:16:15 <ais523> as in, return i==j && j==k && !*s
04:16:20 <alise_> yeah
04:17:49 <alise_> More "abstract" version:
04:17:50 <alise_> int anbncn(char *s) {
04:17:50 <alise_> int n[3], i;
04:17:50 <alise_> for(i=0; i<3; i++)
04:17:50 <alise_> while(*s++ == "abc"[i]) n[i]++;
04:17:50 <alise_> return !*s && n[0]==n[1] && n[1]==n[2];
04:17:52 <alise_> }
04:17:54 <alise_> Less clear, though.
04:20:15 <alise_> ais523: ok then, here's something tricker: a parser that parses (a_0)^n (a_1)^(n+1) (a_2)^(n+2) ... (a_i)^(n+i) for a fixed alphabet a of size i, and arbitrary n.
04:21:44 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:21:44 <alise_> int n[sz], i;
04:21:44 <alise_> for(i=0; i<sz; i++)
04:21:44 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:21:44 <alise_> for(i=0; i<sz; i++)
04:21:44 <alise_> if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) return 0;
04:21:46 <alise_> return !*s;
04:21:48 <alise_> }
04:21:50 <alise_> I think.
04:21:52 <alise_> Well, you can't actually do int n[sz].
04:22:02 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:22:03 <ais523> alise_: VLA?
04:22:03 <alise_> int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i;
04:22:03 <alise_> for(i=0; i<sz; i++)
04:22:03 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:22:03 <alise_> for(i=0; i<sz; i++)
04:22:04 <alise_> if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) return 0;
04:22:06 <alise_> return !*s;
04:22:08 <alise_> }
04:22:08 <ais523> perfectly legal in C99
04:22:13 <alise_> ais523: Well, sure, but :P
04:22:18 <ais523> and you forgot to free n
04:22:18 <alise_> Anyway, I /think/ that code is correct.
04:22:22 <alise_> True enough.
04:22:32 <ais523> if you want to keep it short, you could use alloca, but that's nonstandard
04:22:40 <ais523> despite normally existing in practice
04:23:31 <alise_> dammit, C needs 'finally' :P
04:24:32 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:24:32 <alise_> int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i, ret=1;
04:24:32 <alise_> for(i=0; i<sz; i++)
04:24:32 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:24:32 <alise_> for(i=0; i<sz; i++)
04:24:33 <alise_> if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) ret=0; goto end;
04:24:35 <alise_> end: free(n); return ret && !*s;
04:24:37 <alise_> }
04:24:39 <alise_> There. Ugly, sure, but what the hell.
04:24:44 <alise_> Hmm, you could do this in one pass.
04:25:38 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:25:39 <alise_> int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i;
04:25:39 <alise_> for(i=0; i<sz; i++) {
04:25:39 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:25:39 <alise_> if(i>0 && n[i]!=n[i-1]+1) { free(n); return 0; }
04:25:39 <alise_> }
04:25:41 <alise_> free(n);
04:25:43 <alise_> return !*s;
04:25:45 <alise_> }
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04:26:55 <alise_> ais523: the nice thing about recursive descent is that you can include little ultra-powerful parsers like that as part of it
04:26:58 <alise_> as long as they have a recognisable start
04:27:14 <alise_> (i.e., you never get aabc being valid but different from aabbcc)
04:29:05 <pikhq> Gotta love recursive decent.
04:29:12 <pikhq> Erm. Descent.
04:30:20 <pikhq> The kind of parser you end up writing without ever having heard of just because they are that intuitive.
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04:34:01 <alise_> pikhq: no! Recursive ASCENT!
04:34:09 <alise_> It is the most hideously stupid parser ever-- and therefore, our favourite!
04:34:10 <pikhq> alise_: o.O
04:34:21 <alise_> pikhq: Actually invented BEFORE descent.
04:34:35 <ais523> surely bogoparse is the most hideously stupid parser ever?
04:34:37 <alise_> Not under that name, of course.
04:34:38 <alise_> Ned Irons preceded our invention with a Recursive Ascent technique that starts off by
04:34:38 <alise_> calling the primary routine, which makes the assumption that it should call the expression
04:34:39 <alise_> routine, which makes the assumption that it must be in an assignment statement and calls
04:34:39 <alise_> that routine. Obviously, expressions appear in places other than assignment statements. So
04:34:39 <alise_> his technique makes mistakes. It recovers from the mistakes by leaving tracks that allow it
04:34:40 <alise_> to find its was back to where the erroneous assumption was made. It then makes another
04:34:41 <ais523> generate random parse-trees, see if they're correct
04:34:42 <alise_> guess and starts working its way up the syntax chart again. Ned’s technique is obviously
04:34:44 <alise_> slower, does not exercise as tight control, and gives pretty poor error messages. He imple-
04:34:46 <alise_> mented his parser on a CDC 1604 at he University Of Princeton in 1960. He was working
04:34:48 <alise_> with a group from the University Of Pennsylvania.
04:34:53 <ais523> actually, that's not so different from recursive ascent
04:34:55 <pikhq> But... And... That... And?
04:35:22 <pikhq> That sounds freaking awful.
04:35:34 <alise_> "An expression? I hear those appear in assignments! Let's go with that."
04:35:58 <pikhq> I cannot fathom accidentally reinventing one of those.
04:36:12 <pikhq> I have written parsers and realised after the fact that they were recursive descent.
04:36:33 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL's parser is now so complex that CLC doesn't have a clue what the operator precedence and associativity is
04:36:37 <ais523> or even if it's consistent
04:36:38 <pikhq> Because they just seem freaking natural for anything that's got clean BNF.
04:37:18 <alise_> ais523: once, the CLC parser proved a false statement
04:37:23 <alise_> but nobody noticed, as it seemed like normal output
04:37:40 <ais523> alise_: its output is ICBM bytecode
04:37:55 <ais523> oh, I see, you were making a joke on "consistent"
04:38:00 <ais523> and I did an AnMaster and missed it
04:38:32 <alise_> it would be cool if it actually outputted a proof that the given text must parse to a certain parse tree :)
04:38:34 <pikhq> What does the CLC in CLC-INTERCAL mean?
04:38:43 <ais523> pikhq: it's the initials of the primary author
04:38:47 <pikhq> Ah.
04:39:12 <coppro> Why can't a predictive recursive descent parser parse an ambiguous grammar?
04:39:16 <alise_> Clever "Lemniscate" Caviar
04:39:24 <ais523> coppro: if it guesses wrong, it doesn't know what to do next
04:39:31 <alise_> coppro: Why can't your MOTHER parse an ambiguous grammer??
04:39:53 <coppro> oh, duh
04:39:59 <coppro> nm, being an idiot today
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04:40:53 <alise_> pikhq: So, typesettery. I was considering having the 'final stage' before actually putting pixels to paper be, basically, nested lists containing sets.
04:40:54 <alise_> To explain:
04:41:03 <alise_> Actually, no nested lists.
04:41:06 <alise_> Just sets at certain points.
04:41:13 <ais523> oh no, this isn't yet another total preorder is it/
04:41:18 <alise_> So, we say that at point (3,4) -- for some abstract coordinate system --
04:41:28 <ais523> those things have come up twice in a month at work, despite being generally unused
04:41:35 <alise_> we have the foop (a (12 pt) bold)
04:41:38 <alise_> which is the same as
04:41:43 <alise_> ((pt 12) a bold)
04:41:46 <alise_> etc
04:41:52 <alise_> so we have nested sets here
04:42:04 <alise_> now, when this is actually rendered, we ask the character set for a character matching these attributes
04:42:16 <alise_> it's a, so it looks up the a character, then it looks for the bold variant, then it renders it at 12pt
04:42:20 <alise_> and that's the pixels returned
04:42:28 <alise_> now, these coordinates can overlap, because of kerning etc.
04:42:32 <alise_> but this is okay, because of transparent backgrounds
04:42:57 <coppro> btw <3 Parsec
04:42:58 <alise_> things like borders would be big box characters around the stuff, i think
04:43:08 <alise_> and images would be e.g. (image 234988eu98234-uniqueid)
04:43:15 <alise_> coppro: (thumbs up)
04:45:30 <pikhq> coppro: It is awesomeness.
04:48:09 <coppro> it is basically the way parsing was meant to be done
04:48:22 <alise_> or IS it... dun dun DUNNNN
04:48:55 <alise_> PEGs huh, i hear pegs are good, pirates have pegs fuckshitting pegs pirates yeaaah it's almost 5am.
04:49:01 <alise_> anyway, moving on
04:49:06 <coppro> nope, I'm pretty sure that when the gods crafted the Universe, they said "Well, we'll have to include parsing" "Oh, man, that sucks" "Well, we could make sure they get Parsec" "Sounds good"
04:49:07 <alise_> Any parsing expression grammar can be converted directly into a recursive descent parser[citation needed].
04:49:12 <alise_> so they're like quite as awesome
04:49:13 <alise_> twice
04:49:19 <alise_> twice is basically the same word as quite ithink
04:49:24 <alise_> there's a t there, thjat should be a c
04:49:27 <alise_> but u is basically w
04:49:34 <alise_> and nobody gievs a fuck about q, so we can just replace that with t
04:49:37 <alise_> so we get quite = twice
04:50:39 <alise_> ais523: So, um... when did you last sleep? I set my sleep clock on other people's.
04:50:52 <ais523> alise_: woke up at about 5pm yesterday
04:51:00 <ais523> my sleep clock is not a good one to set to, though
04:51:04 <coppro> I last went to sleep 18 hours ago
04:51:06 <alise_> fuck, i woke up at 10am this morning :)
04:51:14 <coppro> my sleep is not a good one to set to if you're in the UK
04:51:18 <ais523> 10am this morning hasn't happened yet, at least if you're in the UK
04:51:30 * pikhq woke up at 10am as well
04:51:33 <alise_> shut up i'm too tired to think so fuck that shit
04:51:41 <alise_> pikhq: but it's like 7pm there in "MILD COUNTRY "
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04:51:54 <alise_> U S A , land of the mild
04:52:27 <pikhq> alise_: Try 11PM.
04:52:31 <pikhq> But yeah.
04:52:52 <pikhq> Also, mild country?
04:52:55 <alise_> 7 "mild" pm, the "mildest " of hours
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04:53:31 <alise_> mascot thourselfs towaqrds my untodistablishabilityies
04:53:34 <pikhq> Uh. It's 7 in Hawaii-Aleutian time?
04:53:35 * Sgeo arbitrarily decides that alise_ is mild
04:53:41 <alise_> pikhq: FUCKING HAWAII
04:53:45 <alise_> ... just
04:53:47 <alise_> FUCKING HAWAII
04:56:25 <alise_> TAIWAN WOW
05:00:22 <alise_> man this is painful
05:01:08 <pikhq> 台湾?
05:01:37 * pikhq loves polyglot sentences
05:01:50 <ais523> pikhq: polyglot between which langs?
05:02:17 <pikhq> ais523: Japanese, all Sinitic languages, (atypically-written) Korean, (atypically-written) Vietnamese.
05:02:32 <pikhq> Yeah, that's right. An entire language branch.
05:02:33 <pikhq> :P
05:02:33 <ais523> is it particularly meaningful in all of them?
05:02:39 <pikhq> Same meaning.
05:02:44 <pikhq> "Taiwan?"
05:02:51 <alise_> ``TAIWAN``''
05:03:08 <HackEgo> No output.
05:03:16 <ais523> that's a sort of pointless polyglot, then
05:03:22 <ais523> sort-of like the null quine
05:03:27 <pikhq> It's easiest with proper nouns, yes.
05:03:44 <alise_> NULL NOUNS
05:03:52 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if there are any spoken Mandarin/Cantonese polyglots
05:04:08 <pikhq> Yes.
05:04:17 <pikhq> Not many, mind.
05:04:21 <ais523> preferably, meaning a different thing in each lang
05:04:33 <pikhq> Oh, different meanings in each? Trivial.
05:04:49 <pikhq> They're both syllable/tonal structured, and there's overlapping syllables and tones.
05:04:53 <alise_> SP[Æ]KING THE Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.
05:04:54 <ais523> I suppose so
05:05:08 <ais523> perhaps you could make it a question in one lang, and its answer in another
05:05:28 <alise_> 《施氏食獅史》
05:05:28 <alise_> 石室詩士施氏,嗜獅,誓食十獅。
05:05:28 <alise_> 氏時時適市視獅。
05:05:28 <alise_> 十時,適十獅適市。
05:05:28 <alise_> 是時,適施氏適市。
05:05:29 <alise_> 氏視是十獅,恃矢勢,使是十獅逝世。
05:05:31 <alise_> 氏拾是十獅屍,適石室。
05:05:33 <alise_> 石室濕,氏使侍拭石室。
05:05:35 <alise_> 石室拭,氏始試食是十獅。
05:05:37 <alise_> 食時,始識是十獅,實十石獅屍。
05:05:39 <alise_> 試釋是事。
05:06:00 <pikhq> I can kinda-sorta understand that.
05:06:17 <pikhq> Really freaking weird-looking, mind, but.
05:06:42 <alise_> IT IS ROMANISED IN "SHI"S
05:06:44 <alise_> NOW ROMANISE IT
05:06:45 <pikhq> alise_: "Kanji" is more literally translated as "Chinese characters". Or even more literally translated as "Han dynasty characters".
05:06:58 <pikhq> Not all of those characters have Japanese readings.
05:07:08 <pikhq> I'll try though.
05:07:49 <pikhq> Oh, wait. The few that don't have reading indicators. I can cheat!
05:09:18 <pikhq> Ishishittsujishishishi, shishi, shishokujyuushi. Shijijitekishikanshi. Shiji, tekijyuushitekishi. Saiji, tekishishitekishi. Shikansaijyuushi, jishitsudou, bensaijyuushishise. Shikaisaijyuushishin, tekiishishitsu.
05:09:25 <pikhq> ... That's about where I'm going to give up.
05:09:37 <alise_> pikhq: Excuse me? That is not entirely "shi".
05:09:42 <alise_> Also, that is not in your romanisation scheme.
05:09:47 <alise_> Yours had xs in, or something.
05:09:52 <pikhq> Oh, right.
05:12:34 <pikhq> Isisitus`isisisi, sisi, sisixyoku`ixyuusi. Siz`iz`itekisikannshi. Sis`i, tekis`ixyuusitekisi. Sais`i, tekisisitekisi. Sikansais`ixyuusi, s`isitut`ou, h`ennsais`ixyuusisise. Sikaisais`ixyuusisinn, tekiisisitu.
05:13:35 <pikhq> After that is where I stop being able to give or reasonably guess at readings.
05:14:37 <alise_> 321654165456465465 need to sleep
05:19:58 <Sgeo> How do I tell if I've been a victim of C# poisoning?
05:20:32 <alise_> you like c#
05:20:46 <Sgeo> It is a nice language..
05:20:57 <ais523> alise_: C# is a massive improvement over all the other standard Windows application development languages
05:21:00 <ais523> which is why people like it
05:21:22 <alise_> Sgeo: poisoned
05:21:30 <alise_> ais523: it's also shit
05:22:05 <Sgeo> C++ is worse, Python is not statically typed, Java is worse
05:22:05 <ais523> alise_: I don't know it well enough to know what bad points it has
05:22:23 <ais523> what's so bad about it? I'm curious, and would like ammo to use against C#-loving types
05:22:48 <Sgeo> C is not really application-level, especially for security-requiring stuff. Too easy to write unsafe code.
05:23:50 <ais523> I think the thing I dislike most about C# is it reminds me a bit of MAGENTA
05:24:07 <ais523> so many different ways to do things, that please different subsets of programmers, not for any particularly good reason
05:24:26 <alise_> night
05:24:30 <Sgeo> Night alise_
05:31:07 <alise_> night
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05:47:42 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: a C# is fine too.
05:47:53 <CakeProphet> I rather like. It's basically what Java should be.
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05:48:35 <CakeProphet> like... it always pissed me off that methods weren't first-class in Java
05:49:08 <CakeProphet> but in C# there's multicast delegates. It already saves you a shit ton of work when doing something event-driven.
05:49:44 <ais523> CakeProphet: are in Java 1.7
05:49:49 <CakeProphet> all of it's bad points are essentially the same as Java
05:49:50 <ais523> first-class methods, that is
05:50:04 <CakeProphet> ais523: oh really? Hmmm, okay. I assume it works differently from delegates based on your wording.
05:50:22 <ais523> CakeProphet: you use # rather than . when referencing a method
05:50:29 <ais523> and you get what's basically a function pointer
05:50:34 <CakeProphet> oh... eh.
05:50:39 <CakeProphet> is it typesafe?
05:50:43 <ais523> ofc you could do it anyway making an anon class, and people did all the time, but that's stupidly wordy
05:50:55 <ais523> and I'd guess it's typesafe at compile time but not run time, the way type erasure normally works
05:51:01 <CakeProphet> ais523: very stpidly. It's cumkbersome when it should be easy.
05:51:13 <CakeProphet> *stupidly
05:51:33 <Sgeo> Suddenly getting first-class methods won't help when most Java APIs expect classes..
05:51:40 <CakeProphet> yeah.
05:52:17 <CakeProphet> delegates are probably my favorite thing about C#. It's the thing that makes it stand out when compared to Java.
05:52:58 <Sgeo> It's possible to go overboard, though
05:53:08 <CakeProphet> ah, well yes.
05:53:09 <Sgeo> I recently wrote a function with 3 nested anonymous delegates.
05:53:19 <CakeProphet> fortunately every language design isn't Guido
05:53:31 <CakeProphet> or we'd be trying to prevent everything that allows mistake.
05:53:36 <CakeProphet> and failing miserably.
05:53:46 <CakeProphet> er *language designer
05:53:52 <CakeProphet> I need to pay more attention to what I type. :P
05:55:03 <CakeProphet> I have so many crazy and conflicting language ideas... I don't think I could ever unify them.
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05:55:28 <Sgeo> Crazy and conflicting, like ABCDEF?
05:55:34 * Sgeo sins by abbreviating it
05:55:47 <CakeProphet> right now I'm considering how one would merge concepts from Elephant with functional and OO paradigms.
05:55:52 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: no clue what that is...
05:56:07 <CakeProphet> but mostly functional. I'd pick functional over OO I think.
05:56:38 <CakeProphet> so essentially logic programming mixed with functional
05:57:02 <CakeProphet> where you have an implicit history (possibly via monad?) that can be referred to and manipulated via temporal logic.
05:57:25 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
05:57:31 <CakeProphet> ooooh
05:57:50 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: no not quite.
05:58:02 <CakeProphet> let's see...
05:58:37 <CakeProphet> some other language ideas I want to develop involve manipulation and definition of syntax... in a sane way. I suppose like Lisp macros but in a more syntatically diverse setting.
05:59:34 <CakeProphet> I sort of envison it like defining a custom parser in Parsec, that interprets the language for the syntax element in question.
06:05:51 <CakeProphet> ...though, I don't know
06:05:53 <CakeProphet> that might be too much.
06:06:16 <CakeProphet> maybe it's just easier to have macro operators. Combinations of operators.
06:08:22 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: someone should actually run a ABCDEF
06:08:35 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, it was, once
06:08:43 <Sgeo> We just never wrote a spec for the resulting language
06:08:47 <ais523> nobody did the actual compilation into a language
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06:34:48 <CakeProphet> I cannot wait for tomorrow night (technically today's night, since it's past midnight now)
06:35:37 <Sgeo_> You know the kid I was talking about as being a co-worker?
06:35:43 <Sgeo_> Of sorts?
06:35:46 <CakeProphet> American Independence Day celebration... with terrible cheap vodka and pot brownies
06:35:51 <CakeProphet> Sgeo_: ...no
06:40:19 <CakeProphet> I am wondering what I should mix this vodka with though. It's /bad/... it cannot be drank neat.
06:40:42 <CakeProphet> Perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_on_the_beach_(cocktail)
06:40:57 * Sgeo_ would rather have real sex
06:41:23 <CakeProphet> Sgeo_: ha. well of course.
06:41:37 <CakeProphet> but we are cheap bastards
06:41:39 <CakeProphet> so anything we make
06:41:43 <CakeProphet> will not be those ingredients exactly.
06:41:53 <CakeProphet> it'll be like, orange soda and peach-cranberry juice.
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06:50:20 <CakeProphet> Sgeo_: okay... so
06:50:41 <CakeProphet> I've got $6 US and a $12 handle of vodka. What mixers should I purchase?
06:51:07 <Sgeo_> His computer was taken away, apparently because his parents thought that they needed it more than he does
06:51:18 <CakeProphet> oh damn.
06:51:26 <CakeProphet> this was for the virtual world thing right?
06:51:37 <Sgeo_> Yes
06:51:56 <Sgeo_> Seriously, taking a computer away from a kid programmer has got to be the most obnoxious..
06:52:24 <CakeProphet> yes.
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06:52:44 <CakeProphet> Sgeo_: how old are you?
06:52:57 <CakeProphet> I didn't realize until recently how many very young people inhabit this channel.
06:53:00 * Sgeo_ is 21. The kid is around 15
06:53:13 * CakeProphet is 18. 19 in a few weeks.
07:02:14 <CakeProphet> hmmmm salty dog / greyhound = vodka + grapefruit juice
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07:02:16 <CakeProphet> this is convenient
07:02:27 <CakeProphet> as I already have some grapefruit juice.
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07:06:20 <CakeProphet> Yorsh (Russian: ёрш) is a Russian drink consisting simply of beer thoroughly mixed with an ample quantity of vodka.
07:06:26 <CakeProphet> .....why would you ever do that.
07:06:54 <CakeProphet> Preparation: mix thoroughly and drink quickly!
07:06:57 <CakeProphet> I bet.
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07:51:47 <coppro> argh, annoying
07:52:29 <coppro> a) I have two partitions on my computer doing nothing. I would be more worried if that wasn't what most of the rest of my disk space was also doing
07:52:30 <coppro> b) my backup disk is refusing to be bootable
07:55:30 * Sgeo_ should probably sleep soon
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08:23:46 * ais523 reads Reddit discuss Lotus Notes
08:24:05 <ais523> someone suggested to get a similar effect, you should try compiling Firefox's source with ghc without porting it to Haskell first
08:25:37 <Sgeo_> Similar effect to what?
08:26:21 <CakeProphet> ais523: er... lots of syntax errors?
08:26:24 <CakeProphet> :D
08:26:32 <ais523> Sgeo_: Lotus Notes
08:26:35 <ais523> CakeProphet: I have no idea
08:26:43 <ais523> but it must be bad if someone even /suggested/ that analogy
08:27:12 <CakeProphet> ah
08:27:31 <CakeProphet> but you can just enable -CompileFirefoxSource extension in GHC
08:27:36 <CakeProphet> it's pretty much standard Haskell at this point
08:28:02 <ais523> haha
08:28:26 <CakeProphet> closely related is EnableSkynet
08:28:35 <CakeProphet> though it's fairly undocumented.
08:30:38 <ais523> "Copyright 200X ACM X-XXXXX-XX-X/XX/XX ...$10.00."
08:30:51 <ais523> strangest copyright notice I've ever seen, although admittedly it was on a draft paper
08:35:10 <CakeProphet> ha
08:35:24 <CakeProphet> Copyright 2XXX
08:35:32 <CakeProphet> by _______ ________
08:35:58 <CakeProphet> ais523: do you know anything about mixed drinks by chance?
08:36:19 <ais523> no; I don't drink alcohol
08:36:39 <CakeProphet> ah. well nevermind. :D
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09:01:44 <augur> anyone here?
09:04:42 <ais523> yes
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09:40:42 * ais523 randomly comes across a compile-time FizzBuzz in C++
09:40:44 <ais523> http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/fizzbuzz.htm
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10:13:26 <coppro> hahah, my backup is working
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10:42:43 <Deewiant> http://nethack.petricek.net/ :-)
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12:32:31 <tulcod> so are there any languages for which it isn't intuitively clear that they're turing-complete?
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12:33:23 <oklopol> no you can always sense it
12:33:57 <tulcod> well, all languages i've seen so far are pretty obvious
12:34:06 <oklopol> what have you seen
12:34:19 <tulcod> .
12:34:26 <oklopol> i don't know .
12:34:36 <tulcod> all the brainf*ck languages and stuff
12:34:41 <alise> "ACTA has now been declared a trade agreement thereby bypassing the congress."
12:34:41 <tulcod> simply weird syntax for assembly
12:34:48 <alise> tulcod: we have far more shit
12:34:54 <alise> underload
12:34:58 <alise> unlambda
12:35:00 <oklopol> toi
12:35:05 <alise> oklopol's langs
12:35:05 <oklopol> check toi first
12:35:10 <oklopol> :-)
12:35:17 <alise> intercal with extensions
12:35:34 <alise> BCT
12:35:40 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/
12:36:07 <oklopol> all of those except toi are pretty obvious tho, so maybe you should check out toi?!?
12:36:24 <oklopol> oh umm bct
12:36:28 <alise> so humble
12:36:34 <oklopol> i know
12:36:40 <alise> oklopol: point is they're more interesting than bf
12:37:11 <alise> oh for tcness
12:37:17 <oklopol> well yes but compared to toi... yeah i'll shut up
12:37:24 <oklopol> yeah tcness
12:37:27 <alise> tulcod: yes, you can easily make a language tc iff goldbach conjecture
12:37:28 <tulcod> alise: hm, just looking at underload, that's far better than whitespace and all that wikipedian crap :)
12:37:29 <alise> forget how
12:37:32 <oklopol> so i was at least partially being useful
12:37:44 <oklopol> whitespace is a syntax language, yes
12:37:48 <tulcod> quite
12:37:48 <alise> tulcod: we're the snob part of the esolang guys :P
12:38:13 <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
12:38:32 <alise> all 102% of languages
12:38:43 <oklopol> the 2% that's both is my languages, there's just a few of them but i counted them multiple times because they're awesome.
12:39:03 <oklopol> how did i get this humble i wonder
12:39:23 <alise> tulcod: some of the absolute best languages come from cpressey. classics like befunge but also very abstract, unknown-tc langs
12:39:30 <oklopol> i did like graphica's syntax, but admittedly toi has the worst syntax ever
12:39:42 <alise> tulcod: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chris_Pressey;
12:39:44 <oklopol> i don't know much about cpressey's work outside bf
12:39:47 <alise> and:
12:39:57 <alise> oklopol: cpressey didn't do bf he did befunge :P
12:40:01 <alise> yeah yeah i know
12:40:07 <oklopol> (.b)
12:40:12 <oklopol> (but sry)
12:40:20 <alise> tulcod: http://catseye.tc/cpressey/lingography.html his languages
12:40:29 <tulcod> hm nice
12:40:35 <alise> tulcod: further you go down, much more interesting and CSy they get
12:40:41 <tulcod> hehe
12:40:48 <alise> e.g. burro where the set of burro programs is a group
12:40:59 <oklopol> oh smetana was his
12:41:19 <alise> "
12:41:19 <alise> Okapi is a language I designed for my wife for our sixth anniversary. Its only means of control flow is throwing exceptions, and as if this wasn't enough, there are two restrictions on exceptions that are thrown — they must be divide-by-zero exceptions, and they must be caught in a lexically enclosing block. Nor is there any facility to "retry" after an exception is caught. The language is nonetheless Turing-complete."
12:41:33 <alise> great anniversary present or best anniversary present?
12:41:49 <tulcod> alise: sounds great :D
12:42:22 <alise> RUBE is a classic by him
12:42:34 <oklopol> i'm just wondering what the message of making an error-based language is
12:43:09 <alise> SMITH (2000)
12:43:09 <alise> A self-modifying assembly-like language which completely lacks any kind of jump instructions whatsoever.
12:43:16 <alise> Noit o' mnain worb (2000)
12:43:16 <alise> A neat little toy automaton that uses pressure between randomly moving particles to approximate the behaviour of circuits.
12:43:24 <oklopol> worb is his too?!?
12:43:29 <oklopol> oh shit
12:43:34 <oklopol> cpressey: ur cool
12:43:44 <tulcod> hehe
12:43:45 <oklopol> you're my new idol, oerjan is out
12:43:58 <alise> Emmental (2007)
12:43:58 <alise> A self-modifying language; the language is defined in terms of a meta-circular interpreter, and this meta-circular interpreter provides an operation that redefines operations of the meta-circular interpreter. In fact, this mechanism is required for Emmental to be Turing-complete.
12:44:01 <alise> i could go on
12:44:07 <alise> but i won't :P
12:44:14 <tulcod> so why are you guys dedicated to this? is there any external interest in all this or is the esolang group just for the lols?
12:44:26 <alise> tulcod: well there are applications in CS
12:44:38 <oklopol> i'm aiming for a career in research in computability
12:44:44 <alise> our ais523 won the wolfram prize by inventing what is basically a deliberately sub-TC esolang tag system
12:44:47 <alise> iirc
12:45:14 <oklopol> and i wouldn't say many of us are all that dedicated :-P
12:45:17 <alise> tulcod: and his day job requires a lot of esolangy stuff
12:45:29 <alise> most of us just do this for fun and interestingness, though
12:45:34 <tulcod> more esolangy than fortran and basic?
12:45:46 <alise> more esolangy than haskell
12:45:49 <tulcod> hehe
12:45:57 <alise> "idealised concurrent algol", mathematical model
12:46:00 <tulcod> so what kinda work would that be? :)
12:46:08 <alise> i dunno exactly, ask him :P
12:46:16 <tulcod> cpressey: you on?
12:46:40 <oklopol> cpressey: yes could you tell us where you get your ideas
12:46:56 <oklopol> why does everything i say look sarcastic
12:47:04 <oklopol> maybe i'm TOO sincere
12:47:55 <alise> tulcod: wouter has cool stuff if you can handle his gigantic language list: http://strlen.com/proglang/index.html
12:48:07 <alise> highlight: http://strlen.com/aardappel/index.html
12:48:30 <alise> he also did false but that's basically brainfuck on a stack
12:48:48 <alise> !help languages
12:48:48 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
12:49:09 <alise> lazy k is pretty cool
12:49:14 <alise> tulcod: malbolge too
12:49:23 <alise> took a computer search to find the first hello world
12:49:26 <alise> and was /cryptanalysed/
12:49:39 <tulcod> hehe
12:49:47 <alise> sub-tc but only for memory limitations
12:49:48 <oklopol> false is brainfuck on a stack? i'm not sure i agree 100%, but maybe i remember it wrong...
12:49:52 <oklopol> well
12:50:01 <alise> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FALSE close enough
12:50:04 <oklopol> okay i guess if you interpret it freely enough
12:50:15 <alise> just more capable
12:50:20 <alise> with arithmetic and shit
12:50:24 <alise> so it's less esoteric :P
12:50:45 <alise> tulcod: btw brainfuck's goal was tiny compiler, not extreme abstract interest
12:51:01 <tulcod> well alright
12:51:08 <tulcod> i'm not saying the guys who designed it are stupid
12:51:13 <tulcod> but it's not extremely interesting
12:51:59 <alise> finally, if you ever want to see what over-engineering is, compare:
12:52:02 <alise> befunge-93 http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/website_befunge93.html
12:52:08 <alise> funge-98 http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
12:52:11 <oklopol> brainfuck is based on a computational model called P'' whose point was to prove you can be tc without loops
12:52:22 <oklopol> well
12:52:32 <alise> oklopol: no without goto
12:52:32 <oklopol> i don't actually know for a fact it is based on this, but it's the same thing
12:52:37 <oklopol> err yes
12:52:41 <oklopol> "typo"
12:52:56 <oklopol> (was gonna write with loops, but it's the omission that's important so well yeah asd)
12:53:43 <oklopol> so anyway, that surely was interesting back then.
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13:41:52 <alise> rayikromtmrokt
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13:47:22 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0aEp1oDOI New version of Photoshop CS5 includes hyper-intelligent gnomes that can do anything.
13:48:46 <alise> that + http://vimeo.com/6496886 = gnome child labour
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13:51:24 <alise> http://img.skitch.com/20091005-q5jx8gdg2j11ubrhap4fpfe8mp.jpg
13:51:30 <alise> Raptor, raptor, raptor, screaming man, endless void of space.
13:52:36 <alise> also seam carving
13:52:37 <alise> that's gnomes too
13:53:45 <alise> i think they're taking the term "magic wand" a bit too literally
14:00:27 <alise> [CSI]
14:00:31 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/ZN3b9.jpg "Oh no, the image is cropped!"
14:00:34 <alise> "It's okay! Just press undo!
14:00:35 <alise> "
14:00:39 <alise> [Synthesising...]
14:00:40 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/AqTcE.jpg
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14:00:50 <alise> s/\n"/"/
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14:09:47 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0aEp1oDOI <<< looks like someone finally made a program that isn't completely retarded
14:10:48 <oklopol> would be interesting to know how special-cased that is for real-life objects
14:11:03 <oklopol> (or the samples :-))
14:12:30 <alise> apparently there's a quite old plugin for gimp that does the same thing quite well
14:12:38 <alise> i imagine it'd have an easier time with abstract shit
14:12:40 <alise> less crap to copy
14:12:47 <alise> the basic technique appears to be "given a texture, make more of that texture"
14:12:53 <oklopol> what's awesome about http://i.imgur.com/AqTcE.jpg is that it looks really natural, but actually the bottom makes absolutely no sense
14:12:55 <alise> presumably with some tweaks to mirror e.g. the balance of elements in the texture
14:13:06 <alise> oklopol: oh god you're right
14:13:10 <alise> shit, looking at the bottom is so disturbing
14:13:16 <alise> it's like... fractal and... evil
14:13:20 <oklopol> yes :D
14:13:22 <oklopol> awesome
14:13:32 <alise> shit, i'm pretty sure there's plant / zoomed out grass hybrids in there
14:13:38 <alise> that's just sick
14:13:41 * alise shivers
14:13:48 <tulcod> oklopol: though, admit you need to know it's computerized to see it
14:13:58 <tulcod> it is very convincing otherwise
14:14:06 <oklopol> to me it looks like there's some sort of portal to another forest
14:14:18 <oklopol> tulcod: you need to look at the bottom to see it, yes
14:14:30 <oklopol> as i said, it looks very natural if it's in the corner of the eye
14:14:55 <alise> i think if i looked at that dark patch in the bottom and then to the left i'd notice shit was up
14:15:01 <alise> plants are not furry like that
14:15:02 <alise> uuurgh
14:15:08 <alise> please obliterate this feature
14:15:10 <oklopol> but once you look at the bottom, you can tell by some of the pixels that there's a fucking portal to another forest.
14:15:22 <alise> oklopol: hey you're right, that dark spot looks like the trees in another forest
14:15:35 <oklopol> i still think that's incredible
14:15:36 <alise> the plants around it get spatially distorted due to, you know, portal physics
14:15:42 <alise> oklopol: if you went through the portal you'd be huge
14:15:43 <oklopol> :)
14:15:45 <alise> look how tiny the tree is
14:15:49 <alise> awesome
14:16:17 <alise> portal physics is the very scientific principle whereby portals do crazy shit
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14:17:06 <oklopol> yes; anyway i seriously want to hear how these algorithms work, but i presume i'd have to join the team
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14:17:22 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer
14:17:24 <alise> gimp plugin
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14:17:28 <alise> phd thesis detailing the algorithm
14:17:28 <alise> enjoy
14:17:33 <alise> (that creepy forest was done with resynthesiser)
14:17:42 <alise> (I have a hunch photoshop would produce something slightly less creepy)
14:17:42 <oklopol> oh that was not photoshop
14:17:48 <alise> yeah but
14:17:50 <alise> same algo basically
14:17:50 <oklopol> well judging by the youtube vid
14:17:57 <alise> gives almost identical results for most of the pics
14:18:00 <oklopol> how do you know it's the same algo
14:18:00 <alise> i guess forests are just pathological :P
14:18:08 <alise> oklopol: cuz the results are almost identical basically
14:18:12 <alise> also the internet says it's the same
14:18:19 <alise> and it has like the same tools
14:18:39 <alise> anyway just read the thesis, that's the creepy forest algo, the important portal one
14:18:44 <oklopol> results are almost identical, what are you basing this on?
14:18:54 <oklopol> looking at those examples, or more
14:18:57 <alise> people who did the panorama and desert thing, want me to find links?
14:19:33 <oklopol> well no need i guess
14:19:54 <alise> i will anyway because i'm awesome.
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14:20:11 <alise> oklopol: you've seen http://vimeo.com/6496886 right? and the image resizing seam carving stuff?
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14:20:27 <alise> how about synthesising a picture, removing some trees, then seam carving it
14:20:39 <alise> thought-out photography is so last century
14:20:53 <alise> "I'll bet it can uncrop a stock chart and predict the markets!"
14:21:16 <alise> someone linked to http://graphics.cs.cmu.edu/people/efros/research/NPS/efros-iccv99.pdf
14:21:20 <alise> "This is completely real. In fact, the technology has been in development since 1999. (pdf warning)"
14:21:38 <alise> oklopol: using an obviously lower-quality screenshot of the panorama from the video:
14:21:42 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/0yKBG.jpg
14:21:42 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/e25kG.jpg
14:21:49 <oklopol> i guess the problem is, like you said, that forests are a bit pathological, because you have small plants near, and big trees far, so they look roughly the same; so plants happen to get interpreted as trees, because the algo doesn't think in 3d
14:21:56 <alise> removing objects:
14:21:59 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/4A4ral.jpg
14:21:59 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/fEbazl.jpg
14:22:03 <alise> admittedly that example isn't so hard
14:22:10 <alise> and the grass is a bit dodgy around the removed area
14:22:35 <alise> oklopol: it's just that seeing furry grass-tree-plants makes me get scared that all matter is suddenly going to go slightly furry at the edges
14:22:42 <alise> that's how my brain responds to the visual information
14:22:47 <alise> "oh GOD fuzz apocalypse imminent"
14:22:52 <oklopol> ah i see
14:23:06 <alise> used to wonder what would happen if reality's texture system broke and i got mapped on to a couch
14:23:08 <alise> seriously
14:23:11 <alise> i was like 7
14:23:24 <alise> got pretty scared about it
14:25:30 <oklopol> give me an even number between 50 and 100 that doesn't repeat a digit
14:26:54 <alise> oklopol: not falling for that
14:26:55 <oklopol> holy fuck at the sketch thing
14:26:59 <oklopol> falling for it?
14:26:59 <alise> 78
14:27:03 <alise> i saw it in the logs :p
14:27:06 <oklopol> what?
14:27:09 <oklopol> you did
14:27:12 <oklopol> when?
14:27:12 <alise> apparently everyone picks 68
14:27:16 <alise> uh a few days ago
14:27:27 <alise> someone linked to a shitty mind control blog mentioning it, after it worked on... maybe you
14:27:33 <alise> i'll try and find
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14:27:45 <oklopol> oh hmm, maybe i got the link from here then, i thought i was googling for something else
14:27:52 <oklopol> and no i doubt i would've chosen 68
14:27:53 <alise> 11:58:16 <ghostwriter42> quick i need a someone to pick a *even* number between 50 and 100 that has two different digits!
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:04 <Sgeo_> 68
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:29 <ghostwriter42> interesting
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:35 <ghostwriter42> thank you
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:40 <Sgeo_> hm?
14:27:54 <alise> 12:00:41 --- part: ghostwriter42 left #esoteric
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14:27:58 <alise> 12:00:59 <Sgeo_> Is 68 a common response or something?
14:28:00 <alise> 12:01:29 <ghostwriter42> http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number"
14:28:02 <alise> 12:02:17 <Sgeo_> ...
14:28:03 <oklopol> but 1/2 of my test subjects have said 68
14:28:04 <alise> 12:02:27 <ghostwriter42> i guess you win
14:28:06 <alise> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.01
14:28:08 <alise> oklopol: yeah i guess you wouldn't, but you aren't human
14:28:19 <alise> wonder why 68
14:28:46 <oklopol> we have one constraint on the pair that's completely symmetric in some sense, and a constraint on the latter digit
14:28:51 <oklopol> so obviously i would choose the latter one first
14:29:02 <oklopol> i might take an easy one like 2
14:29:08 <oklopol> then i could choose any number for the first one
14:29:27 <oklopol> 68 is the first possible choice ofc, realizing that i don't think it's all that interesting
14:30:22 <oklopol> "<alise> wonder why 68" <<< ^
14:30:37 <oklopol> okay pick a card please
14:31:05 <alise> 3 of ... jacks
14:31:09 <alise> wait, that isn't a suit is it
14:31:09 <alise> :D
14:31:13 <alise> 3 of spades
14:31:16 <oklopol> well not completely
14:31:21 <alise> xD
14:31:27 <alise> doesn't work when your target knows what you're doing
14:31:45 <oklopol> i'm doing a very partial disproof of these things working.
14:31:58 <alise> wtf, that thesis is 60 megabytes
14:32:05 <alise> was wondering why net was so slow
14:32:10 <oklopol> NOW PICK A CARD
14:32:15 <alise> I REFUSE
14:33:02 <alise> 04:07:19 <ais523> heh, just saw a bogus proof on Slashdot that the last digit of pi was 5
14:33:03 <alise> show?
14:35:01 <oklopol> tried to search for more of these because i'd like to try one on myself
14:35:11 <oklopol> and the link for http://www.indianchild.com/number_trick.htm gives the answer away on google
14:35:13 <oklopol> :D
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14:35:36 <alise> you can't hypnotise yourself dude
14:35:38 <alise> duhh :P
14:35:43 <oklopol> sure you can
14:36:01 <alise> "While not absolutely everybody picks "3", most people do." <-- oh i thought it meant pick an /arbitrary/ number, i picked 72
14:36:04 <alise> oklopol: i was joking.
14:36:11 <alise> interesting fact, these tricks aren't hypnosis
14:36:11 <oklopol> i know
14:36:21 <alise> i guess i should have picked a real
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14:36:27 <oklopol> did you pick 3?
14:36:28 <alise> but i think they probably meant natural even if they meant arbitrary
14:36:32 <alise> no picked 72
14:36:35 <alise> *no i
14:36:38 <oklopol> oh lol :D
14:37:01 <oklopol> you thought 1 2 3 4 was like a countdown to seeing how controllable you are
14:37:12 <alise> yeah
14:37:16 <alise> i thought it was gonna be like
14:37:18 <alise> "did you pick FIVE???"
14:37:43 <alise> then when i scrolled down I was like "what how does 1, 2, 3, 4 make people think the next entry should be '3'"
14:38:05 <oklopol> :D
14:39:04 <alise> that's asstonishing
14:39:11 <alise> lol ass-tonishing
14:39:17 <alise> i'm just tonishing my ass
14:39:22 <oklopol> you just lagrance it up you'd understand if you knew maths
14:39:37 <oklopol> but i guess you don't..................
14:39:39 <alise> fragrance it up
14:40:03 <oklopol> hey did you read about my fart language btw
14:40:07 <oklopol> did you think it was awesome
14:40:10 <alise> no, is it farty?
14:40:22 <oklopol> well it's a bf derivative but even funnier
14:40:30 <oklopol> *it's like bf but
14:40:36 <alise> ooh is it wav files
14:40:38 <alise> and basically
14:40:41 <alise> it detects fart noises
14:40:47 <alise> and uses the duration and pitch to pick a command?
14:40:55 <alise> if so congratulations you are a genius
14:40:56 <oklopol> well i thought of that but fizzie refused to do the sound stuff for me :(
14:41:09 <alise> he's a fascist
14:41:12 <oklopol> but input is still in farts
14:41:12 <alise> kill him
14:41:17 <oklopol> and output too
14:41:39 <oklopol> i removed nestor loops because they are too complecited for me...
14:41:44 * alise farts
14:41:45 <alise> lol
14:41:51 <alise> oklopol: i don't think you need loops if you just have if
14:41:58 <alise> i mean you can just repaet the code multiple times instead of looping
14:42:01 <alise> so really you just need if
14:42:03 <alise> that should be tc
14:42:10 <alise> or 2d movement, that is also tc
14:42:18 <oklopol> well yes i also changed the for ... until loops of bf into just ifs but i think it's the same thing really
14:42:20 <alise> but really tc is irrelevant since we only have finite memory in the universe
14:42:36 <alise> so don't listen to the zealots who say "ohh you need tc"
14:42:43 <alise> its just a purist masturbating thing
14:42:50 <oklopol> i don't really understand tc
14:43:03 <alise> i don't i think it doesn't really mean much in the real world
14:43:06 <oklopol> if it like when you can use printers and usb drives and so on
14:43:09 <oklopol> *is
14:43:18 <alise> does your language run or replace windows ??
14:43:20 <oklopol> and cd disquettes
14:43:23 <alise> i know windows is a language you can type things like "dir" into it
14:43:33 <alise> and "format c:" which formats your files to look better
14:43:37 <alise> that's what i heard on the internet
14:43:57 <alise> i think you should make a 3.75d version of your language
14:44:00 <alise> isometric 3d
14:44:03 <alise> like my favourite game
14:44:18 <alise> i dunno what isometric means
14:44:21 <alise> i think it means illegal
14:44:30 <alise> WHAT IS "IT"
14:44:32 <alise> the the the the the the of the
14:44:33 <alise> .
14:44:34 <alise>
14:44:39 <oklopol> well an isometry is a distance-preserving bijection between two metric spaces
14:44:49 <alise> okay
14:44:53 <alise> so what is a language?
14:45:05 <oklopol> i dunnolol
14:45:58 <oklopol> i wish i was like this all the time, but made really awesome languages
14:46:12 <alise> heh
14:46:14 <oklopol> and then they'd always have some really stupid design flaws and retarded names for things
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14:46:27 <alise> "what's that? my language is a turing-complete field? what's that"
14:46:31 <oklopol> but the ideas behind them would be awesome
14:46:40 <oklopol> :-)
14:46:41 <alise> "i just made a bf derivative..."
14:46:50 <alise> :----)
14:47:42 <alise> why does my computer suck so much this user interface was designed by a moron or something
14:47:44 <alise> like all user interfaces
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14:48:22 <oklopol> "maybe its a filed but the POIT of the langauge is that the loopes are realy hard to write because you have to repeat every charater 40 times in soruce code :D"
14:48:43 <oklopol> the typos would be essential
14:48:53 <oklopol> and everything he'd say would be totally retarded
14:49:24 <alise> so basically asiekierka with a genius mathematician in his subconscious
14:49:52 <Sgeo_> I figured out how all those "fill in data that isn't there for pictures" stuff in shows works!
14:50:05 <oklopol> no you didn't
14:50:11 <alise> well we can instinctively do pretty awesome stuff ... like do differential calculus so fast we can catch a flying ball ... stole that from Dirk Gently
14:50:43 <Sgeo_> Basically, in secret, there are surveillance cameras everywhere, constantly taking very high resolution pictures. However, the secret network won't give up those picutures without proof that you had most of the data anyway.
14:50:45 <oklopol> i heard something about some psychology people saying people do diff calc when they catch balls
14:50:54 <alise> Sgeo_: 'most'
14:50:59 <oklopol> and i thought damn they're retarded
14:51:03 <alise> oklopol: also douglas adams, therefore it is true
14:51:05 <alise> well
14:51:07 <oklopol> Sgeo_: okay, then maybe
14:51:08 <alise> a character in a douglas adams novel
14:51:14 <alise> admittedly they can be pretty stupid
14:51:48 <oklopol> who's dirk gently?
14:52:05 * Sgeo_ ignores the succeeding conversation to best avoid spoilers
14:52:51 <alise> oklopol: Svald Cjelli a.k.a. Dirk Gently, of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
14:52:54 <oklopol> usually if i hear a spoiler, i completely forget about it once i start reading/watching said object
14:53:05 <oklopol> okay
14:53:14 <alise> a bloody good book
14:53:19 <alise> also it references prolog which is pretty neat i guess
14:53:36 <oklopol> but apparently there was something like that in a psychology book my friend had to read for schools. a uni course that is
14:53:50 <alise> oklopol: tl;dr dirk gently scams old people with missing cats using bullshit quantum physics
14:53:51 <oklopol> the psychology dep seems really retarded btw
14:54:13 <alise> oklopol: gura vg gheaf bhg gvzr vf shpxrq hc, naq n znpuvar perngrq fcrpvsvpnyyl gb oryvrir guvatf fb lbh qba'g unir gb sebz nabgure havirefr xvyyf n thl
14:54:16 <alise> Sgeo_: do NOT unrot13 that
14:54:19 <alise> huge spoiler
14:54:22 <Sgeo_> So... tempting
14:54:26 <Sgeo_> But I won't.
14:59:51 <alise> oklopol: anyway it's a good book, even more nerdyish plotpoints than h2g2 and a fun plot
15:00:30 <alise> Doesn't have:
15:00:31 <alise> * Save. Every edit is saved immediately. Changes to the file by other programs are loaded automatically.
15:00:34 <alise> well that's an interesting feature :P
15:00:36 <alise> ctrl-a delete
15:00:37 <alise> oops!
15:00:44 <alise> i guess if you use version control religiously
15:00:53 <alise> would be cool if every change was saved and ctrl+s just did a vcs commit
15:01:58 <alise> " * A jump-to-line dialog box.
15:01:58 <alise> * A find dialog box.
15:01:58 <alise> * In fact, does not have any dialog boxes."
15:02:29 -!- kar8nga has joined.
15:06:29 <Sgeo_> Grr, another app available everywhere except Android
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15:29:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
15:31:04 <alise> so, ridiculous idea
15:31:13 <alise> audio compression using lagrange interpolation!
15:31:28 <alise> we cut out every N samples, and use lagrange interolation to fix it
15:31:30 <alise> plus stuff
15:42:58 <alise> dammit, now i have an urge to write an editor
15:43:42 <alise> sometimes this happens.
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16:00:10 * alise behaves like he has a 200dpi screen
16:01:13 <alise> *she
16:01:19 <alise> this is confusing :D
16:07:28 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:07:36 <oklopol> hey might be temporary, so you should be at your best behavior
16:07:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:07:53 <oerjan> bah, too lazy
16:09:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:13:16 -!- alise has joined.
16:13:32 <alise> no hinting is weird
16:15:18 <oklopol> well your loss!
16:16:38 <pikhq> A well-hinted Japanese font is an awesome thing.
16:17:02 <alise> Bah. I spit at hinting. Why don't we have 300 ppi screens?
16:17:16 <alise> Then we wouldn't /need/ hinting.
16:17:21 <alise> 600 ppi? Then we wouldn't need /antialiasing/.
16:17:44 <alise> The iPhone 4 is 326 ppi, so, you know, just make that bigger.
16:18:55 <alise> error: failed retrieving file 'ffmpeg-23792-1-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz' from www.mirrorservice.org : Not Found
16:18:56 <alise> ...
16:19:03 * alise syncs package dbs
16:19:20 <alise> pikhq: So, I am writing an editor! Call me crazy. Please.
16:20:28 <pikhq> You're fucking nuts.
16:20:55 <alise> pikhq: why :(
16:23:54 <alise> ff there are sequels to A Glorious Dawn
16:24:04 <alise> my day has been made
16:26:09 <alise> ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkWindow)
16:26:09 <alise> ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkInvisible)
16:26:09 <alise> ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkObject)
16:26:10 <alise> Shut up.
16:27:59 <alise> pikhq: I just want to make something I can use instead of Emacs until I reinvent everything :P
16:28:16 <alise> I use maybe 5% of Emacs' editing features so I wade through a lot of boilerplate in using it.
16:28:33 <alise> Plus I've now become enamoured with the idea that all changes are saved immediately, and Ctrl-S does a *VCS commit*.
16:31:10 <olsner> vim for the vim
16:31:24 <olsner> no need to make another editor
16:31:33 <alise> olsner: My editing style is nothing like vi's.
16:31:44 <alise> There /are/ differences between people's editing styles.
16:31:57 <alise> Some people are emacsers, some people are viers, some people are acmers, some people are samers, some people are geditors.
16:32:01 <alise> I'm an alise-editorer.
16:32:13 <olsner> using vi kind of requires that you forget everything you think you know about editing and relearn the vi way
16:32:27 <alise> yes, and that way really doesn't sit well with the way i /think/ about code
16:32:59 <olsner> maybe, or perhaps you just don't think like that because you're not using an editor like that
16:33:18 <alise> I used vim for a while. Went through vimtutor and all, sawed off my cursor keys (not really).
16:33:31 <alise> I'm happy with the way I think about code and edit it. Is there something wrong with a person who doesn't use vim? :)
16:33:55 <olsner> of course there is, not using vim for starters
16:34:05 <alise> i am no longer listening to you :-)
16:34:11 <olsner> :)
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16:35:03 <alise> olsner: Considering the idea of "cursor key acceleration (a la mouse acceleration)" seriously just popped into my head, pretty sure I'm /not/ a vi user.
16:35:35 <oerjan> well you _could_ accelerate all key repeats...
16:35:53 <alise> perhaps, i don't repeat many keys often though
16:35:54 <alise> other than cursors
16:36:09 <alise> and it would exasperate the problem of accidental repeats
16:36:24 <alise> oerjan: i mean far more extreme accel though
16:36:34 <oerjan> nah, just accelerate backspace too >:D
16:36:35 <olsner> my basic point is: how happy you are now says nothing about how happy you *could* be after taking time to be proficient in another way of working
16:36:56 <alise> like it starts out moving one line per N, then in 1/4 seconds is moving up 3 lines per N, then in 1/2 seconds is moving up 5 lines per N, after 1 second 8 lines per N
16:37:05 <alise> oh, also backspace, yeah
16:37:11 <alise> but with characters
16:37:31 <alise> olsner: I have tried a great, great many editors.
16:37:32 <oerjan> i think your fibonacci is missing a term
16:37:39 <alise> olsner: I jived more with acme than I did with vim.
16:37:48 <alise> oerjan: wasn't going for fibonacci, but cooool :D
16:38:01 <alise> fibonacci as natural acceleration
16:38:38 * alise tries to remember what (Delta fib(n)) simplifies to
16:38:55 <olsner> phi?
16:38:59 <oerjan> fib(n-2)
16:39:20 <alise> no, Delta fib(n) = fib(n+1) - fib(n)
16:39:34 <oerjan> fib(n-1) then
16:40:14 <alise> well it's (fib(n) + fib(n-1)) + (fib(n-1) + fib(n-2))
16:40:33 <alise> wolfram alpha says it's fib(n) - fib(n-2), but that's obvious
16:40:46 <oerjan> O_o what
16:40:52 <alise> err, or is it
16:40:53 <alise> no it's not
16:40:55 <alise> i'm so confused
16:40:59 <alise> lemme take this step by step
16:41:00 <oerjan> fib(n+1) - fib(n) = fib(n-1)
16:41:04 <alise> reduces to
16:41:05 <alise> fib(n) + 2fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)
16:41:09 <alise> reduces to
16:41:36 <alise> fib(n-1) + fib(n-2) + 2(fib(n-2) + fib(n-3)) + fib(n-3) + fib(n-4)
16:41:41 <alise> oerjan: yeah but wolfram alpha isn't correlating that
16:41:44 <alise> so i'm really confused
16:42:00 <alise> fib(n-1) + 3fib(n-2) + 3fib(n-3) + fib(n-4)
16:42:14 <oerjan> you substitute _just_ the fib(n+1) into the recursion. sheesh.
16:42:20 <alise> oerjan: err right
16:42:46 <alise> fib(n+1) - fib(n) = fib(n) + fib(n-1) - fib(n-1) - fib(n-2)
16:42:50 <alise> = fib(n) - fib(n-2)
16:43:00 <alise> fib(n) = fib(n+1) + fib(n-2)
16:43:06 <alise> ergo fib(n) - fib(n-2) = fib(n+1) which is obvious but
16:43:08 <alise> why didn't W|A get that?
16:44:17 <alise> oerjan: ok so we have that fibonacci grows according to fibonacci
16:44:25 <alise> which would seem to give a nice acceleration ... property
16:44:46 <alise> so wait, the finite integral of fib(n) is fib(n+1), that's cool.
16:46:35 <alise> 0/1 1/16 1/8 1/4 1/2 1/1 2/1 4/1 8/1
16:46:35 <alise> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34
16:46:39 <alise> that's actually an awesome acceleration pattern
16:47:51 <alise> assuming that we start with 1, ofc
16:47:55 <alise> 0 lines per interval would be useless
16:48:49 <oerjan> alise: fib(n) = fib(n+1) + fib(n-2) surely you want n-1 not n+1
16:49:10 <alise> oops
16:49:11 <alise> yeah
16:49:16 <alise> so we have
16:49:38 <alise> Delta^n fib(m) = fib(m-n)
16:49:44 <alise> ...undelta^n fib(m) = fib(m+n)
16:49:49 <alise> *Undelta
16:50:12 <alise> dunno about you but that seems like a pretty cool acceleratory property to me
16:52:24 <alise> oerjan: has anyone used fibonacci as a nice acceleration sequence in this way before, do you know?
16:52:44 <oerjan> no idea
16:53:34 <alise> i just sucked an icecube and it popped
16:53:39 <alise> weirdest thing.
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16:58:44 <alise> oh, awesome, yaedit has a prefix option
17:02:39 <Deewiant> Doesn't have: - An option to set the bloody tab size and screw up your indenting. Tabs are 8 spaces, get over it.
17:02:42 <Deewiant> o_O
17:05:09 <alise> Deewiant: yeah it's a silly opinion but even ais523 holds it religiously
17:05:25 <alise> (that 1 tab = indent until mod 8 = 0, or in today's world, indent 8 spaces)
17:05:31 <Deewiant> I'm also slightly amused by "- Menus or ugly icons that take up precious screen real-estate."
17:05:37 <Deewiant> When coupled with the screenshot
17:05:45 <alise> he has, like, the tiniest screen
17:05:53 <alise> otoh i have tried it out and with a more reasonable screen size it's alright
17:05:53 <Deewiant> Sure
17:05:57 <alise> since the left hand side is... the only UI :P
17:06:09 <alise> of course it still /sucks/ incorrigibly, why do you think i'm writing an editor?
17:06:25 <alise> max undo levels? why do I want max undo levels? is your computer going to run out of memory or something?
17:06:31 <Deewiant> It's just that he complains about screen real-estate and then has an UI that takes up around 30-40% of his screen :-P
17:06:48 <alise> I ... don't think he has a 454x360 screen.
17:06:55 <alise> but yeah
17:07:05 <Deewiant> Whatever, you know what I meant
17:07:33 * alise does pygtk babysteps
17:07:36 <alise> this is easy actually!
17:08:05 <alise> i have a feeling save-everything-then-Ctrl+S-does-VCS-commit might be a pain if you're setting other programs on the file, but eh, just disable it if you do that
17:14:55 <alise> if anyone's wondering the best code window size at whatever 10pt at 85ppi is, is 640x432
17:14:58 <alise> (just the code, nothing else)
17:15:37 <alise> it can display... 31.9 lines, or something, should probably round that up, and 88 columns for some reason
17:24:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:25:02 <alise> wow, gtksourceview themes suck.
17:25:44 -!- 77CAAV6KB has joined.
17:26:33 <alise> ok, now i'll do file loading ... then the actual hard part
17:26:56 -!- 77CAAV6KB has changed nick to FireFly.
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17:31:27 <alise> "The operations between the begin_user_action() and end_user_action() methods can then be grouped when creating an undo stack."
17:31:28 <alise> sweet
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17:34:33 <alise> anyone have gtk experience?
17:35:30 <pikhq> Don't do it man!
17:35:32 <pikhq> Don't do it!
17:36:05 <alise> pikhq: don't do what
17:36:10 <alise> don't make the most AWESOME editor ever?
17:36:29 <pikhq> alise: Don't do GTK.
17:36:38 <pikhq> It's an abomination.
17:36:41 <alise> pikhq: why not, it's so eaaaaaaaaaaaasy to use in python
17:37:19 <alise> pikhq: i'm using it tastefully
17:38:05 <alise> pikhq: :(
17:38:08 <alise> pikhq: suggest something better
17:39:38 <pikhq> Wxwidgets? FLTK? A hole in the head?
17:40:33 <Deewiant> Qt?
17:40:40 <alise> pikhq: Ever tried to use wxWidgets? Ever looked at a wxWidgets interface?
17:40:44 <alise> I have.
17:41:00 <alise> FLTK? Well, sure, point me to the ready-made source widget :-)
17:41:14 <alise> Qt is hideously complex to get going and the signals/slots stuff is just living pain if you're trying to get something simple done.
17:41:16 <pikhq> Qt?
17:41:17 <Deewiant> http://pyfltk.sourceforge.net/
17:41:22 <alise> pikhq: Really, what's wrong with GTK if it's used simply?
17:41:29 <alise> Deewiant: Is that a ready-made source widget?
17:41:35 <Deewiant> Maybe
17:41:36 <alise> Also, I forgot to mention that FLTK is ugly as hell.
17:41:39 <pikhq> alise: Look at Gobjects. Deeply.
17:41:44 <alise> pikhq: Yes. Yes I have.
17:41:51 <alise> pikhq: You are already running a GTK program right now.
17:41:55 <alise> You already have GObjects on your system.
17:42:00 <alise> And it won't even be interfaced into an actual object system.
17:42:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye).
17:42:10 <alise> I, on the other hand, will be using GObject interfaced to Python's object system; the two blend rather well.
17:42:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:42:51 <alise> hi zzo38
17:43:04 <pikhq> alise: Yes, I use Conkeror.
17:43:14 <pikhq> This is the *only program* I have with GObjects.
17:43:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:43:57 <alise> pikhq: And do GObjects personally affect you while using it?
17:44:06 <pikhq> ... Oh wait. Mlterm. Darnit.
17:44:09 <alise> Probably not. And they won't personally affect me while writing it, as I'll see them all as Python objects.
17:44:10 <pikhq> alise: Not at all.
17:44:17 <alise> In conclusion, the only thing GObjects damage is our sanity when we look at them, which we're not doing.
17:44:25 <alise> Therefore, I will continue to use GTK as it's the easiest thing for this :P
17:44:32 <pikhq> However, the source code is enough to make me want to murder RMS.
17:45:41 <pikhq> Gregor: ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libgcc/config/libbid/bid_decimal_globals.c:47:18: fatal error: fenv.h: No such file or directory
17:45:52 <pikhq> Gregor: This error. How did you make it go away in Microcosm?
17:46:07 * pikhq is trying to build an i386-pc-linux-newlib GCC
17:48:25 <alise> Magic.
17:48:47 <pikhq> Clearly.
17:52:01 <alise> okay so what ui element should i add first ... hmm
17:52:27 <alise> oh, i should make it indent properly first
17:52:51 <alise> gtksourceview takes view a bit literally it seems, and doesn't do intelligent autoindentation
17:53:17 <pikhq> Also, why oh why is it using xgcc for a *cross compiler*?
17:55:04 <pikhq> Apparently "make all-gcc" is how you tell it to just make the compiler. XD
17:57:18 <alise> Make every GCC, EVER.
17:57:24 <alise> All versions, all platforms, all settings.
17:57:43 <alise> Themselves compiled with every GCC, EVER.
17:58:28 <pikhq> Ugh no.
17:58:44 <alise> pikhq: Why isn't there a library that just works out autoindentation?
18:02:47 <alise> pikhq: Furthermore, should I write one?
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18:10:07 <pikhq> *ugh*
18:10:38 <alise> pikhq: Ugh?
18:11:15 <alise> a
18:11:50 <pikhq> It is, no joke, trying to build x86_64 assembly for an i386 libc.
18:12:05 <alise> pikhq: i suggest you write an indentation library
18:13:05 * pikhq tries with linux32
18:16:18 <pikhq> Argh. Yeah: newlib is "smart".
18:16:37 <pikhq> It's convinced that because you're going linux->linux, it can special case a bunch of stuff.
18:16:56 <pikhq> And so it does stupid stuff.
18:17:11 <alise> writing an autoindenter is hard :(
18:17:18 <alise> with tabs for indent spaces for align
18:17:31 <pikhq> Fucksit.
18:17:42 <pikhq> I can probably get a uclibc system working now.
18:17:47 <alise> pikhq: or CAN you
18:18:20 <pikhq> Yes.
18:18:52 <alise> Suggest a feature for my editor so I can tell you why I'm not going to add it!
18:19:01 <Deewiant> Multi-file support
18:19:14 <pikhq> GI
18:19:17 <alise> Deewiant: Well, it will have that.
18:19:19 <pikhq> GUI, I mean.
18:19:31 <Deewiant> alise: You didn't deliver :-/
18:19:34 <alise> pikhq: Well... it'll have widgets ... but very few of them, and you'll rarely click them. :P
18:19:39 <alise> Okay, suggest something /slightly/ less fundamental.
18:19:47 <Deewiant> Syntax highlighting
18:19:55 <pikhq> alise: Scripting support.
18:20:35 <alise> pikhq: Define scripting.
18:20:48 <alise> Deewiant: ... be a /little/ bit outlandish, please? :D
18:20:54 <pikhq> Y'know Elisp?
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18:21:04 <alise> Yes, I do know elisp.
18:21:14 <pikhq> That
18:21:36 <Deewiant> alise: Can't think of much else to be honest
18:21:45 <alise> Indeed, it will not have scripting support because it'll be so simple that scripting it would be basically pointless, as there isn't anything to script. If there's an actual "big" (big being almost anything in this context) feature you want to add, you can patch the code easily enough.
18:22:11 <alise> Deewiant: How about "a save file command"? :P
18:22:21 <olsner> scripting is overrated
18:22:46 <Deewiant> alise: Alright, that
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18:24:02 <alise> Deewiant: I have this disease where I never bother using a VCS because, even with editor support, making a commit is so much of a fuss as opposed to simply not doing it. So, with my editor, I'm moving the goalposts: every change is saved automatically, and the minimal-effort action, Ctrl+S, is "make VCS commit"; it will prompt for a one line summary, which I'll type and press enter, and that'll be it. For files where this is undesirable, it will be disable
18:24:02 <alise> able in a few keypresses.
18:24:31 <Deewiant> IOW you will have that, just not by default
18:24:34 <alise> This way, I can just type and then invoke e.g. "git diff" to see what I've changed so far, making a commit will be as instinctual and automatic as saving is now, with no extra effort, and I'll have a nicely fine-grained revision history.
18:24:44 <alise> Deewiant: Well, yes. But that's just for editing /etc files. :P
18:24:48 <alise> And it won't be in version 0.01.
18:25:37 <alise> Deewiant: Or I could be a nazi, and tell you to version /etc and ~/.*.
18:25:42 <alise> And not have any save command at all.
18:25:47 <alise> But I don't do that, so I won't. :P
18:26:11 <Deewiant> So the intended purpose of the editor is /etc, ~/.*, and source code? :-P
18:26:32 <alise> Name another purpose? Writing textual works is also included, but you should be versioning them anyway.
18:27:55 <Deewiant> Modifying autogenerated files
18:28:12 <alise> Well, generally you shouldn't do that. Example of when you would?
18:28:38 <Deewiant> I often modify configure scripts and makefiles because that's much easier than figuring out why the autotools/whatever got something wrong
18:28:59 <Deewiant> Or I do know why, but that's much easier than changing the generators
18:29:39 <alise> Okay, then press whatever keys disable the magic. :P
18:30:18 <alise> Ctrl+. A or something (A for Autosave).
18:30:30 <alise> Then Ctrl+S would be save, and Ctrl+S on an already-saved file would be VCS commit.
18:30:31 <Deewiant> Right; just pointing out that your "be a nazi" option isn't very realistic even if people would agree to that much :-P
18:30:40 <alise> Well, I /am/ writing this just for me. :P
18:31:17 <Deewiant> alise: Context-sensitive tab completion
18:31:25 <alise> You mean smart autoindentation?
18:31:51 <alise> Yeah, I'll have that. It's minimalist in fluff, not in text editing features. :P
18:32:01 <alise> I'm pretty sure it won't have macros.
18:32:47 <Deewiant> No; completion, not indentation
18:32:52 <alise> Ah, completion.
18:32:58 <alise> Naw, none of that... unless I change my mind.
18:33:08 <alise> I'd generally think that if your names are long enough to need completing you have shitty names.
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18:33:26 <alise> Same reason I won't have snippet-macros.
18:33:44 <alise> brb
18:44:59 <zzo38> I was looking at documentation for CWEB. I was trying to see what features it has. I was specifically looking for the feature to export parts to other files, the @( command does that it is exactly what I was looking for. But in my opinion there is still one feature missing, which is a kind of meta-macros, which can take parameters and output C codes, TeX codes, and other CWEB codes.
18:45:26 <AnMaster> yeargh
18:48:25 <zzo38> Like, to add command such as @M defines a meta-macro, and @X does a calculation before compile-time, including checking whether the mode is tangle or weave.
18:48:46 <zzo38> That would make CWEB useful, in my opinion.
18:53:01 <zzo38> If this command were added I might rewrite MegaZeux with CWEB and convert the documention of MegaZeux into TeX. But as it is right now, I cannot do such a thing as that. This way all documentation can be neatly printed with cross-references to the relevent part of the codes, and with automatically for all Forth and Robotic commands, together with the relevent code and also printable in separate section for reference manual
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19:09:45 <coppro> pikhq: can you do me a favor and translate http://mtg-jp.com/eventc/jpnats10/img/preview.jpg ?
19:10:00 <pikhq> coppro: I can try.
19:10:22 <coppro> thanks
19:11:08 <coppro> oh, sorry for being rude, I should have said please :)
19:12:22 <pikhq> Awakened Thoughts 2U. Sorcery. Choose one instant or sorcery card from your graveyard, and put it into your hand.
19:12:26 <pikhq> There's the rules text.
19:12:37 <pikhq> I can't make out the flavortext.
19:16:01 <coppro> ok, thanks
19:17:26 <pikhq> ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libiberty/strsignal.c:554:1: error: conflicting types for ‘psignal’
19:17:30 * pikhq twitches
19:32:43 * pikhq gets the *distinct* feeling that cross-compiling GCC is not a much-tested feature
19:33:23 <Deewiant> Why's that
19:33:30 <pikhq> Erm. Making a GCC cross-compiler
19:33:49 <pikhq> Deewiant: It's so incredibly brittle!
19:33:58 <Deewiant> Isn't GCC mostly thus? :-P
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19:37:08 <pikhq> /opt/crosscc/i386-pc-linux-uclibc/i386-pc-linux-uclibc/include/unistd.h:243:21: error: two or more data types in declaration specifiers
19:37:11 <pikhq> Okay, y'know what?
19:37:17 <AnMaster> alise, does plan9 support non-bitmap fonts?
19:37:19 <pikhq> GCC can go to hell.
19:37:29 <coppro> yes
19:37:32 <AnMaster> and what about any sort of antialiasing?
19:37:37 <coppro> what are you trying to create a cross-compiler to?
19:37:45 <pikhq> i386-pc-linux-uclibc
19:38:00 <coppro> what are you on?
19:38:07 <pikhq> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu
19:38:20 <coppro> clang is definitely an option
19:38:41 <pikhq> Can it build uClibc and busybox?
19:38:46 <coppro> Don't know
19:38:51 <coppro> are they C?
19:38:59 <coppro> are they heavily laden with GNU extensions?
19:39:18 <coppro> if the answers are yes and no, then clang should be able to do it; if they're both yes, it's a definitive maybe
19:39:57 <pikhq> They're C and heavily laden with GNU extensions.
19:42:53 <alise> back
19:42:56 <alise> AnMaster: it can, yes
19:42:58 <alise> and antialiasing
19:43:00 <alise> no subpixel afaik
19:44:30 <alise> Helveticka Smallcapulated.
19:44:36 <alise> Gothic Helvetica XD
19:46:20 <alise> coppro: so, I'm working on amend -1
19:46:48 <coppro> Tell me about it when I return (it will be shortly)
19:46:55 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.).
19:48:18 <alise> Longly.
19:49:06 <alise> pikhq: do you know of any auto-indentation libraries? :/
19:49:13 <alise> Like, ones that will tell you what string to enter on this indented newline
19:49:16 <alise> or how to indent this given line
19:49:18 <alise> given its context
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19:49:41 <Deewiant> That's a very language-dependent and tricky problem :-P
19:51:08 * pikhq does not see an easy way to tell clang the *libc* you want it to use
19:51:55 <alise> Deewiant: So is syntax highlighting.
19:52:31 <pikhq> I get the feeling I'm going to be the first person to try to build a clang *for* uclibc.
19:52:43 <Sgeo_> "What string to enter"?
19:52:47 <Deewiant> alise: Yes; and most editors have syntax highlighting but not clever indentation
19:52:48 <Sgeo_> As in, program for you?
19:53:22 * Sgeo_ watches alise bring in the singularity
19:53:36 <alise> Sgeo_: no, as in the string of indentation
19:53:39 <alise> Deewiant: gedit, kate, emacs, vim, notepad++, ...
19:53:42 <alise> Deewiant: every IDE, ever, ...
19:54:01 <alise> All even /tolerable/ editors do it.
19:54:05 <Deewiant> alise: Are we still talking about indenting with tabs and aligning with spaces?
19:54:12 <alise> Deewiant: No, not that particularly.
19:54:23 <alise> Just automatically inserting an indent on {, deducing indentation from context, etc.
19:54:25 <Deewiant> Okay; because I know of no editor that does that correctly
19:54:31 <alise> Deewiant: Emacs does with a very short elisp snippet.
19:54:36 <alise> It's nice. But that's just icing on the cake.
19:55:02 <alise> What GtkSourceView calls auto-indentation is actually just "repeat the last line's indentation", something I find utterly unusable in the face of actual automatic indentation.
19:55:12 <alise> I'm asking if there's a library to do proper automatic indentation. If not, I guess I'll write one.
19:55:32 <CakeProphet> well ladies and gentleman
19:55:38 <CakeProphet> (mostly gentleman)
19:55:48 <CakeProphet> I am now going to prepare to celebrate my country's independence
19:55:54 <CakeProphet> by getting very very drunk.
19:56:00 <alise> CakeProphet: entirely gentleman, unless you follow the coppro theory of total nickname-based gender reassignment.
19:56:08 <CakeProphet> alise: I do not.
19:56:14 <alise> then entirely gentleman.
19:56:15 <alise> *gentlemen
19:56:29 <alise> hmm sex reassignment too, if he claims i have a vagina in the context of #esoteric
19:56:30 <CakeProphet> ah. we are a gentleman's club then.
19:56:43 <CakeProphet> I don't think anyone has sex organs in the context of #esoteric
19:56:46 <alise> sukoshi -- who else used to come here and be female? I don't recall.
19:56:47 <CakeProphet> it's not really part of the protocol.
19:56:50 <Sgeo_> Wait, isn't Slereah female?
19:56:57 <oklopol> how do you know iamcal isn't female?
19:57:03 <oklopol> whoops
19:57:06 <CakeProphet> How do you know your mom isn't female
19:57:07 <Sgeo_> Or am I making an assumption based on the nick?
19:57:08 <alise> oklopol: because he's cal henderson, guy at flickr
19:57:14 <alise> Sgeo_: french gay guy
19:57:15 <zzo38> Your gender is generally irrelevant in context of #esoteric
19:57:17 <oklopol> yes i forgot whois exist
19:57:18 <oklopol> s
19:57:26 <alise> http://www.iamcal.com/
19:57:41 <alise> i think he's one of only two people here with a wikipedia article
19:57:43 <iamcal> oh hai
19:57:52 <oklopol> Sgeo_: not female no
19:57:55 <CakeProphet> well. I disgressed, but now I must bid everyone good day. I must see how many different vodka concoctions I can invent in a night.
19:57:58 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_Henderson
19:57:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Smith_%28The_Simplest_Universal_Computer_Proof_contest_winner%29
19:58:00 <CakeProphet> *digressed
19:58:06 <alise> CakeProphet: enjoy destroying your liver and losing your higher cognitive function!
19:58:14 <alise> iamcal: hi.
19:58:16 <zzo38> There! Now I wrote "Icochash".
19:58:21 <CakeProphet> alise: I will. immensely..
19:58:21 <alise> iamcal: oklopol thinks you're female
19:58:36 <oklopol> yes
19:58:54 <iamcal> i'm mnaly
19:59:34 <zzo38> Is "mnaly" a word?
19:59:40 <zzo38> Or do you mean "manly"?
19:59:44 <iamcal> a badly spelt one
19:59:45 <iamcal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/iamcal
20:00:03 <alise> those could just be photographs of people who aren't you but share your name
20:00:09 <alise> or people pretending you're male to support your conspiracy
20:00:16 <alise> /or/, you could actually just be a really manly-looking female.
20:00:27 <iamcal> damn, it's ture
20:00:28 -!- coppro has joined.
20:00:36 <alise> it's totally ture, mr. mnaly
20:00:59 <Gregor> My sideburns are nearly connecting under my chin.
20:01:11 <Gregor> They're trying to make up for my otherwise complete lack of facial hair by making a pseudobeard.
20:01:16 * pikhq is *this* close to just murdering every person responsible for modern compilers
20:01:32 <alise> pikhq: Please do it. Not the pcc guys though.
20:01:35 <alise> pcc is nice. Use pcc.
20:01:38 <alise> Do nothing except use pcc.
20:01:50 <pikhq> alise: I am very, very heavily tempted to just use PCC and Newlib.
20:01:52 <alise> Have no compiler in your thoughts apart from pcc. Associate the concept of compiler directly with pcc, and cast away any other such associations.
20:02:04 <pikhq> (I'm presuming that Newlib is PCC-buildable)
20:03:28 <alise> prolly
20:04:08 <pikhq> They seem like the kind of guys who would care about being sane and reasonable C.
20:04:51 <Gregor> pikhq: What're you trying to do? :P
20:04:58 <alise>