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00:30:24 <Ilari> Heh... From wisdom of crowds stuff: Task 1k random people to develop new nutrional guidelines and then do study of what those do to health. Wheither one would or would not want to see that depends on relative priorities of caring for others vs. how much one wants to see train wrecks... :-)
00:33:43 <Ilari> Because those recomendations would probably be total garbage (difficult to say better or worse than current official ones)...
00:39:11 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with current guidelines?
00:40:46 <Ilari> Some would say 'too much carbohydrates', but I won't...
00:43:10 <Ilari> Worst part: They are almost impossible to follow without snacking on garbage...
00:46:15 <Ilari> Also that the recomendations do not seem to be based on reality...
00:47:25 <Ilari> Did you know that US nutrional recomendations are published by USDA (agriculture) and not by HHS (Health)?
00:49:05 <Ilari> (well, latest ones are in co-operation with HHS, but one can still tell where the priorities lie...)
00:49:45 <pikhq> The old recommendations were, what, 11 servings of grains each day?
00:50:19 <Ilari> The really difficult questions: What causes metabolic syndrome? There are some suspect causes, some known not to be cause. But no unified model.
00:50:31 <pikhq> Yup, 6-11 servings.
00:51:19 <pikhq> I cannot fathom eating that much grain.
00:52:22 <pikhq> "Eat 5 times as much grain as meat, poultry, fish, beans, eggs, or nuts!"
00:53:08 <pikhq> Hmm. What was it, 1 slice of bread = serving? "Eat a loaf of bread each day!"
00:53:36 <Ilari> Fun "paradoxes" ("paradox" in food & health really means "we have the wrong model"): Whole milk is less fattening than skim milk. Epidemilogical studies pick association, animal studies pick causation.
00:54:49 <Ilari> Yeah, you need to eat lots of grains, since grains are nutrient-poor (that's for white grains, whole grains can be even worse).
00:55:41 <pikhq> It's also comical that they stuck pretty much everything with protein together...
00:56:05 <pikhq> Because apparently tofu and a steak are nutritionally equivalent.
00:57:43 <Ilari> Fun... Its impossible to satisfy both nutrional guidelines and what I think are healty macronutrient ratios (based on what has been observed in hunter-gatherers). Actually, only fundamental conflict is in saturated fat sector...
00:58:24 <pikhq> Not to say that the average US diet is any saner, but the government recommendations are fucking nuts.
00:58:44 <Ilari> (and I didn't refer to its taste).
00:58:49 <pikhq> "Now, eat a loaf of bread, but heaven forbid that you eat more than two pieces of fruit a day."
00:59:19 <pikhq> Tofu is not bad when prepared well. (which it almost never is on this continent)
01:00:27 <pikhq> (flavor-wise, that is. Nutritionally, you're looking at protein and not much else.)
01:00:31 <Ilari> Errr... Weren't fruits the second overhyped food group? Those tend to be quite high in sugar (of the apparently harmful kind)...
01:00:46 <pikhq> They said "2 a day".
01:01:16 <pikhq> Same as meats. And dairy products.
01:01:27 <pikhq> Vegetables were 3-5 a day.
01:01:55 <pikhq> They also said "use sparingly" on... All fats. *All* fats.
01:02:16 <Ilari> Oh, at least new recomendations have all sugar <10E%. Here sugar is <25E% (insane).
01:02:32 <Ilari> What's serving in dairy products?
01:03:16 <pikhq> 1 cup of milk. (the measurement "cup")
01:05:12 <Ilari> Ah, I would exceed that by quite a margin... :-)
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01:07:10 <Ilari> Meats are good proein sources...
01:11:43 <Ilari> Where does that fear of cholesterol come from? Not even Keys (who IIRC started the whole 'saturated fat is bad'/'high cholesterol causes heart disease' crock) thought that dietary colesterol is important (unless you happen to be rabbit or hamster)... :-/
01:18:56 <Ilari> Heh... One (legendary) doctor had 4 patients that wanted to gain weight. So he had them drink 100g of olive oil a day... Didn't work...
01:21:44 <Ilari> One with wrong model of things would call this "paradox"... :-)
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01:47:10 <Sgeo_> Ilari, what makes you qualified to talk about nutrition, and others unqualified? Just asking..
01:49:30 <pikhq> Knuth has proposed a successor to TeX.
01:49:34 <pikhq> The syntax is XML.
01:49:52 <Ilari> Not that I'm qualified... There are others way more qualified than me. But there are also others (includin "experts") that are way less qualified.
01:50:11 <pikhq> XML is NOT a human-usable syntax.
01:50:15 <coppro> pikhq: Obviously it should be full SML
01:50:27 <pikhq> TeX is more so than XML.
01:50:38 <pikhq> Which is not to say that it's very usable, but... Ugh.
01:55:56 <coppro> okay, it's pretty obvious by now that was a joke
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02:09:16 <coppro> is there some website where you can bet on how far Knuth will get on TAOCP before he croaks?
02:09:38 <coppro> it's quick on the way to being the greatest unfinished work of computer science
02:10:16 <pikhq> And still the greatest work.
02:11:07 <coppro> (I mean, yes, it is currently the greatest unfinished work, but you know what I mean)
02:13:18 <oerjan> 11:43:05 <oklopol> i wish oerjan was here
02:13:18 <oerjan> 11:43:31 <oklopol> are you talking about receiving head
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02:27:12 <oerjan> wyde is better than tyght
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03:08:30 <coppro> Does sideways add serve any direct arithmetic use or something?
03:10:00 <coppro> an instruction on some architectures that takes two operands; the result has each bit set iff the first operand had it set and the second did not
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03:11:09 <coppro> it's count the number of bits that meet those conditions
03:11:28 <oerjan> pikhq: er, i feel a draft over my head
03:12:05 <coppro> in MMIX (the spec for which I'm reading), it could serve to count bits set because there's no direct operation for that (just put it against an all-0 second operatnd)
03:13:07 <pikhq> Uh, isn't that with 0x0 on the second operand the identity function?
03:13:39 <coppro> like I said; I misspoke earlier
03:13:45 <coppro> it's a bit-counting instruction
03:13:56 <coppro> AND NOT against 0 is the identity operation, yes
03:14:03 <coppro> it's "count the bits in X AND NOT Y"
03:15:21 * oerjan doesn't know why one would want that particular combination often enough not to just construct it from simpler parts
03:16:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Blame Knuth.
03:16:28 <coppro> it's not just Knuth; I researched it and it's existed physically before
03:17:07 <oerjan> well, must be useful then :D
03:17:14 <pikhq> Well, he *did* try to make MMIX a CPU ISA that one could actually use.
03:17:35 <coppro> I imagine he has some use in mind
03:18:19 <oerjan> http://cryptome.org/jya/sadd.htm
03:20:28 <oerjan> hm that page so far doesn't really imply that it did any AND NOT stuff before counting
03:25:31 <coppro> whoa, the matrix operations are cool
03:27:02 <oerjan> that string search use of sideways add looks interesting
03:27:12 <oerjan> (but uses AND, not AND NOT)
03:29:03 <Ilari> Population count unit... Geez...
03:29:51 <Ilari> Very exotic instruction and optimized to ridiculous degree...
03:32:00 <Ilari> Haha: "Seriously, the milk section includes transparent cheese. Is that a new Kraft product?".
03:33:40 <Ilari> (referring to proposed 2010 dietary guidelines).
03:39:02 <coppro> I like how Knuth's fake architecture is designed with several instructions that no one would really want on a computer used only for educational purposes
03:41:14 <pikhq> It's not intended only for educational purposes.
03:41:43 <pikhq> Well, it is, but it's intended to be real-world usable so you actually learn something other than a bizarre educational subset of things.
03:42:09 <coppro> but one instruction is described as "reserved for operating systems only"
03:42:38 <coppro> "details are in MMIXware", which is not part of TAOCP
03:43:31 <Sgeo_> Fake architecture?
03:45:52 <coppro> Sgeo_: in that it has no hardware implementations
03:46:30 * Sgeo_ wants to see an arcitecture that can only be simulated
03:46:36 <pikhq> Though it certainly could.
03:46:48 <pikhq> It's actually a quite reasonable RISC architecture.
03:47:06 <pikhq> From Knuth and the guys responsible MIPS and Alpha.
03:47:43 <coppro> yeah, he basically designed it so that you could put Linux on it
03:47:45 <coppro> nice: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/diamondsigns/CP6.html
03:48:00 <coppro> (note: I don't mean that he actually made that a design goal, merely that it is sufficiently comprehensive to allow that)
03:48:45 <pikhq> In other words: he didn't want it to be a toy.
03:49:14 <coppro> it even has compare-and-swap
03:50:28 <Ilari> Well, Compare-and-swap is absolute basic operation of multi-CPU operation.
03:51:04 <Ilari> IIRC, from that one can construct all manner of atomic operations and all basic multithread synchroninzation primitives.
03:51:42 <Ilari> What kind of odd instructions?
03:52:40 <Ilari> coppro: What instructions no one would really want on real computer?
03:52:52 <oerjan> KILL-THEN-ASK (for handling zombie processes)
03:53:07 <coppro> Ilari: uh, the sideways add is a bit weird
03:53:43 <Ilari> coppro: Sideways add? You mean population count?
03:54:05 <coppro> Ilari: it is defined of "the number of bits that are 1 in $Y and 0 in $Z"
03:54:39 <Ilari> Well, that's somewhat odd.
03:55:06 <Ilari> Well, one can use that as population count. Especially if MMIX has RISC-style zero register.
03:56:00 <coppro> Every operation has a form taking a constant as the third operand $Z, so yes, you can use it against 0 in one instruction
03:56:55 <coppro> also, internal interrupts involve jumps to low addresses
03:57:07 <coppro> (internal being within a program; not an OS-level interrupt)
03:57:41 <Ilari> What kind of interrupts there are within programs?
03:58:33 <coppro> conditions like integer overflow, divide by zero, or the like. Whether they are interrupts or just set flags is controllable, but if they are set as interrupts they all jump into the first few bytes of memory
03:58:55 <coppro> also, the TRIP instruction, which causes a manual interrupt, seems weird
03:59:10 <coppro> for starters, it involves a jump to address 0
03:59:36 <coppro> (TRAP, which is an external interrupt, is by contrast quite useful and normal)
03:59:42 <Ilari> I would want first page not to be mapped...
03:59:54 <pikhq> Yeah well screw you.
04:00:14 <coppro> Ilari: it does not have paging AFAICT
04:00:31 <pikhq> coppro: It does, but you're running in userspace so YOU CAN'T TELL.
04:00:41 <coppro> pikhq: Well, a kernel could implement it on top of the OS
04:00:48 <coppro> on top of the architecture
04:00:52 <coppro> but there's no architecture support
04:01:30 <pikhq> Someone made an MMIX simulator that ran unhosted code for the sole purpose of running Linux on it.
04:01:35 <pikhq> That sucker's got virtual memory.
04:01:59 <coppro> hmm... actually, it may
04:02:05 <coppro> there are some features left undescribed
04:02:08 <coppro> I don't think so though
04:02:13 <coppro> there isn't enough room in the instruction table
04:03:31 <coppro> stop hiding features in sideways comments, Knuth!
04:03:31 <Ilari> What all is segment descriptor in X86 is pretty crazy. There are ordinary code and data segments, but there's also TSSes, task gates, interrupt gates, exception gates, LDTs, etc...
04:04:07 <coppro> there's a reason CISCs are going out of styles
04:04:23 <Ilari> TSSes: Hardware-assisted task swapping...
04:04:34 <pikhq> Arguably, CISC is dead outside of 8-bit and 16-bit CPUs.
04:05:06 <pikhq> After all, modern x86 implementations are not CISC. They are RISC chips running a very fast x86 emulator.
04:05:07 <coppro> the no-op for MMIX is entitled "SWYM", or "sympathize with your machinery"
04:05:20 <Ilari> Yes, LDT is segment descriptor you stick into GDT. And some segment selectors reference entries in LDT.
04:06:06 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, you know things suck when...
04:07:02 <Ilari> Oh, and of course call gates.
04:08:45 <coppro> I'd have to look into MMIXware to see if TRIP has a real use
04:17:32 <Ilari> Oh, and x86 has expand-down segments, where segment limit is minimum address and not maximum address. As for why Linux/x86 doesn't set kernel CS to be expand-down: Expand-down code segments are not supported!
04:20:16 <pikhq> Oh, x86's segmentation.
04:20:33 <pikhq> If you were crazy enough, you could use it *and* paging for virtual memory.
04:24:25 <Ilari> System segment types: TSS (16 and 32 bit, available and busy variants of course), Call gates, Interrupt gates and trap gates (all with 16- and 32-bit variants).
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06:01:24 <Gregor> "If you value your independence and creativity, you should be aware that Apple doesn't. Take your computing elsewhere." -- FSF
06:02:03 <coppro> maybe if we get the FSF and Apple into a major battle, they'll destroy each other and the world will be a better place
06:02:54 <lifthrasiir> coppro, are you sure that equivalent organizations (or company or so) won't arise after them? ;)
06:03:15 <coppro> lifthrasiir: there will be a Calm
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06:19:13 <pikhq> coppro: So, you are proposing the plot of FFX as a solution.
06:20:49 <pikhq> All fun and games until some punk decides to kill off everything to spare people pain.
06:21:37 <coppro> uh, I think you're confusing games
06:22:30 <pikhq> Ending the spiral of death?
06:23:05 <coppro> oh sure. I thought you were talking about Yu Yevon
06:23:25 <pikhq> Nah, Yu Yevon's a different kind of crazy.
06:23:51 <pikhq> All fun and games until some punk decides to turn people in statues to run a massive summoning.
06:24:26 <coppro> and kill off everything
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07:56:01 <fizzie> The twitterverse seems to say that it was a jokey thing "announcing" TeX's successor with XML syntax.
07:57:10 <fizzie> And then something about ringing a bell when you say the name.
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07:57:56 <fizzie> It ended up in Wikipedia for ~2 hours, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Itex&oldid=371122107
07:58:00 <fizzie> Then again, everything does.
07:58:33 <coppro> it features 3-d printing and VP8
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08:02:58 <fizzie> Gah, if I tell mutt to search for a string in message bodies on this 1776-email IMAP inbox, it will fetch all message bodies. Wasn't there some sort of search functionality in IMAP? (Come to think of it, it's probably just that it wouldn't support regexps that way.)
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08:05:43 <fizzie> (And I didn't even find what I was looking for.)
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08:07:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, so Knuth's announcement was a joke?
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08:08:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: So it appears.
08:08:55 <augur> he didnt actually make an announcement, did he
08:09:43 <fizzie> He made a joke at the end of a conference; it's not so uncommon, though usually the jokes don't come with this much pre-excitement.
08:09:55 <augur> what was the joke?
08:10:24 <fizzie> That there'll be a TeX successor called iTeX with XML syntax. It's just a dozen comments backwards on this channel, you know.
08:11:12 <augur> hes a bit weird tho
08:11:32 <augur> i mean, hes quite smart and knowledgable, but at the same time he seems to have a weird view of how numbers work mathematicall
08:12:20 <augur> tho he might be a strict formalist, in that regard
08:13:20 <augur> well, in one of his books, he made some comments regarding natural numbers and integers and so on and so forth and i wrote him saying that mathematically speaking, these two things were identical in some relevant fashion
08:13:38 <augur> er, well, natural numbers/integers and reals
08:13:46 <augur> basically involving the naturals/integers being a subset of the reals
08:13:51 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why one could possibly want an enum larger than an int
08:14:14 <augur> and he replied that you'd have to define an equivalency between them in order to make such and such blah blah blah
08:14:30 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: With 16-bit ints, you might only have room for puny 65k named constants.
08:14:41 <augur> yeah, i was saddened
08:14:57 <Ilari> Heh... There's Damn Vulernable Linux... Linux distro stuffed with outdated software, exploitable software and ill-configured software... The list of default services is probably impressive.
08:15:01 <augur> especially that it wasn't a simple enough error
08:15:30 <augur> like, if it were an error that could be made by simply forgetting to copy some symbol or other, or whatever, ok sure fine whatever
08:15:40 <augur> whoops, typo, so to speak
08:15:52 <augur> but this was kind of crucial to the point he was making
08:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, this was from the x86-64 ABI spec; it uses 32-bit ints.
08:16:32 <fizzie> When you want to name each and every memory location with a descriptive name?
08:17:25 <fizzie> Yes, so you need more than 32 bits for it.
08:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Wouldn't the compiler die of overwork trying to keep track of them?
08:19:03 <fizzie> Well, if you have a limited amount of cases but they're represented by bit-patterns wider than int, maybe?
08:19:36 <fizzie> A 64-bit register with few flags up high, and you want the values in an enum so that you can say "blah | bleh" to get a proper value.
08:19:40 <fizzie> Or something like that.
08:20:20 <fizzie> After all, it's allowed for the values of enum constants to be non-arbitrary integers.
08:20:27 <fizzie> fungot: You guess you what?
08:20:28 <fungot> fizzie: something like that, change the environment properties/ colors/ positions once a while back he snagged a bit of plot creativity, they could be
08:22:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
08:23:27 <fizzie> Where do you have wider-than-int enums, though?
08:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> C++ and some implementations of C permit enums larger than an int. The underlying
08:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> type is bumped to an unsigned int, long int or unsigned long int, in that order.
08:25:58 <coppro> Ilari: my first actions if I heard someone was running it: ssh root@box
08:27:32 <Ilari> coppro: You mean 'telnet box'? :->
08:27:56 <coppro> if that doesn't work, I'd try mysql
08:28:22 <Ilari> Actually, ssh might be better target, but there's no telling what they have used as in.telnetd (probably something really vulernable).
08:30:11 <Ilari> And not only vulernable, but misconfigured to create additional vulernabilities.
08:30:23 <Ilari> Oh, and the SSH probably has SSH1 enabled...
08:31:07 <coppro> yeah, but if root is passwordless or has a weak password, SSH wins (assuming it allows root logins at all, which is always a bad idea)
08:31:41 <Ilari> Hey, guess twice if it allows direct root logins? :-)
08:32:44 <Ilari> Well, judging from goals, it very probably does.
08:34:07 <coppro> I could see an instructor running that and giving bonus marks for every different way someone students came up with to root it.
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11:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> AAGH the number 168 is stuck in my head and I don't know why.
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11:35:56 <AnMaster> hm I wonder if linux is smart enough when dealing with reading from software RAID1 that it uses the disk that happens to have the read head closest to what it needs to read?
11:41:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or did you mean which command line tool you use to set it up?
11:52:10 <fizzie> It sounds somewhat tricky to arrange it completely optimally; preferrably you'd start reading with the drive that has the least seek time to the target region, and then read in parallel from all drives as soon as they have reached the proper place.
11:53:10 <fizzie> I'm not even sure if you can get precise enough geometry information from disk controllers nowadays. And there's sector remapping and all that fluff.
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12:11:05 <fizzie> From the "this howto is deprecated" Linux Software-RAID HOWTO, on the topic of RAID-1: "Read performance is good, especially if you have multiple readers or seek-intensive workloads. The RAID code employs a rather good read-balancing algorithm, that will simply let the disk whose heads are closest to the wanted disk position perform the read operation. Since seek operations are relatively expensive on modern disks (a seek time of 6 ms equals a read of 123 kB at
12:11:05 <fizzie> 20 MB/sec), picking the disk that will have the shortest seek time does actually give a noticeable performance improvement."
12:11:22 <fizzie> So at least at some point it has attempted to handle that cleverly.
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12:15:27 <fizzie> The same phraseology (with updated numbers: 8 ms, 640 kB at 80 MB/sec) appears in raid.wiki.kernel.org, but on the other hand in the "Performance" page the benchmarks don't show very much read-speed differences between non-raid and RAID-1 access. (The benchmarks look somewhat haphazard, though.)
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12:45:48 <oerjan> but can you _truly_ be sure?
12:46:26 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but for all I know you could just be an emergent phenomenon of the intenet itself.
12:46:35 <oerjan> <fizzie> That there'll be a TeX successor called iTeX with XML syntax. It's just a dozen comments backwards on this channel, you know.
12:47:35 <oerjan> the very name of that + the preannouncements would seem to imply knuth was deliberately making a joke on apple hype
12:48:00 <oerjan> well except apple doesn't make preannouncements, do they
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12:52:09 <fizzie> They just do strictly controlled leaks with both correct and incorrect information, to keep the hype going.
12:52:16 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: guesswork and speculation.)
12:53:25 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> AAGH the number 168 is stuck in my head and I don't know why. <-- it's your serial number, duh
12:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I strongly suspect it's an SCP, but I really don't want to find out which.
12:56:42 <fizzie> Few more bits of trivia that Knuth said about iTeX: no escape sequences, menu-driven, speech-recognition something. (From a random tweet.)
12:56:53 <fizzie> Heh, "knuth announcement: 27th most popular search in the past hour."
12:57:34 <fizzie> http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?q=knuth+announcement
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13:53:17 <Mathnerd314> I was thinking about XML in TeX, sometime in the past year... I'm pretty certain it could work (use <document> instead of \begin{document}, for example)
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14:00:01 <cpressey> So I want to spider a site, but I also want to spider a version of it from a few years ago from www.archive.org.
14:00:22 <cpressey> I don't suppose a tool exists that does exactly that, so
14:00:43 <cpressey> Any suggestions for a spidering tool that is comfortably hackable?
14:05:46 <cpressey> wget -r plus some perl goo, it is, then.
14:07:44 <fizzie> Yes, there is already a XML syntax for TeX (TeXML). It's mostly intended for people who programmatically generate TeX code, though.
14:08:50 <fizzie> I don't have any clue how good/sensible it is.
14:10:09 <fizzie> It seems to do <env name="x"> instead of \begin{x} for example, so it's perhaps not that human-friendly to type directly.
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14:32:59 <cpressey> This Knuth thing is an April Fool's joke, right? Just 3 months late?
14:37:27 <oerjan> presumably there's only one yearly tex conference...
14:37:53 <oerjan> top-level one, that is
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14:48:31 <ais523> hmm, I proved both Reversible Brainfuck and DoFuck TC in my head last night
14:48:38 <ais523> although, as usual with proofs done mentally, there may be bugs
14:49:12 <cpressey> Indeed -- from the sound of it, Reversible Brainfuck would not be too hard to prove? Or is it weirder than its name suggests?
14:49:30 <ais523> (they're both BF with different definitions of the [ command; DoFuck has it enter the loop unconditionally, Reversible Brainfuck has it enter the loop if the current cell /is/ 0, rather than if it /isn't/ 0)
14:49:57 <cpressey> I was thinking I might actually implement my idea for Goldbach... was making some notes last night
14:50:03 <ais523> it's not trivial to prove; the issue is trying to make sure you can enter a loop the good-old-fashioned BF way
14:50:07 <cpressey> It will turn out to be very un-exciting, though
14:50:10 <ais523> which requires somehow ignoring the value when you enter it
14:52:21 <cpressey> My Goldbach idea just degrades into "Loop over pairs of primes until you find two that sum to the next larger even number you need", and if you can't do that, you can't perform a top-level loop. So if the Goldbach conjecture is false, there is a limit to the number of useful iterations you can do.
14:52:59 <cpressey> next larger even number -> first you have to goto -2, then -4, then -6 ... which all basicallly are gotos back to the first instruction of the program
14:53:07 <ais523> I remember asking bits of the mathematical community about the goldbach conjecture, though; they all believe it's true, just have no proof
14:53:26 <cpressey> I have a hard time fantasizing about it *not* being true.
14:53:46 <cpressey> Would there be just one "non-Goldbach" even number?
14:54:00 <cpressey> Nothing would seem to imply there would be more than one, if there were one.
14:54:01 <ais523> arguably 2, but that doesn't count
14:58:17 <Sgeo_> Am I supposed to fall in love with Lua?
14:58:47 <ais523> Sgeo_: it's good for some things, not for others
14:58:55 <cpressey> Heh... catseye.tc's front page looks pretty spectacular in FF when the canvas is only 23-or-so pixels high
14:59:15 * Sgeo_ is thinking of rewriting some of the C# stuff in Lua so it can be easily unloaded, changed, and loaded without restarting the bot
14:59:42 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Never a good idea to fall in love with a language. It can only lead to hurt when the summer's over.
15:00:25 <cpressey> Seriously, Lua's OK. In many respects, for me, it beats both Python and Ruby.
15:01:08 <cpressey> In others, well, nothing's perfect.
15:02:02 <Sgeo_> In what ways is Lua imperfect?
15:02:40 <cpressey> Er, well. There is no "standard" way to do object-orientation. So, if you mix and match two libraries which use different styles, it can be ugly.
15:03:05 <cpressey> I also something think they went too far, when they merged dictionaries and arrays into one thing.
15:04:12 <cpressey> Most of my other gripes are about the implementation and things like availability of libraries, which aren't really core language issues.
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15:06:21 <cpressey> Where it beats Python: Lua doesn't make a distinction between attributes and dictionary entries. a['foo'] is the same as a.foo. The division in Python is artificial at this point, and in the code base I work on at least, extremely annoying.
15:06:55 <ais523> cpressey: JavaScript works like that too
15:07:07 <ais523> come to think of it, JS and Lua are surprisingly similar languages
15:07:26 <cpressey> Yes, JS is actually a lot better than I usually give it credit for. And yes, similar to Lua in many ways.
15:07:53 <ais523> JS has mostly been held back by being mostly trapped inside a web browser
15:08:35 <cpressey> Web browsers with generally lousy debugging/interaction capabilities, especially.
15:08:59 <cpressey> I think it's not a coincidence that much of the JS I write has the same feel as much of the Assembly I write.
15:09:07 <ais523> both Firebug and the Epiphany/Safari/Chrome web inspector are pretty good for debugging
15:09:31 <cpressey> Well yes, I didn't mean to imply such tools weren't available.
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19:58:16 <ghostwriter42> quick i need a someone to pick a *even* number between 50 and 100 that has two different digits!
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20:00:59 <Sgeo_> Is 68 a common response or something?
20:01:29 <ghostwriter42> http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number"
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20:20:13 <impomatic> Can anyone think of a cool name for a website specialising in programming games?
20:21:13 <coppro> no, but I am interested
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20:24:13 <impomatic> It's a shame programming.com, programming.net and programming.co.uk are wasted :-(
20:28:55 <ais523> impomatic: btw, there was a bit of movement on the BF Joust leaderboard recently
20:28:57 <ais523> so it isn't /quite/ dead
20:32:38 * pikhq can has decent headphones! And stuff for curry, reubens, and such!
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22:40:35 <ais523> good point, I haven't heard any followup on that
22:40:40 <ais523> I don't know, is the answer
22:40:47 <ais523> which surprises me, I thought it would have at least hit Slashdot
22:41:32 <ais523> just checked a search: it seems he was joking
22:41:45 <ais523> he announced an XML-based TeX, called iTex
22:41:47 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: It was a joke.
22:41:53 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Guess (stolen from Hacker News): a typo was found in a comment in METAFONT
22:42:29 <pikhq> iTeX features Unicode, XML syntax, 3D printing, stereophonic sound, and a menu-driven interface.
22:42:36 <ais523> only places the actual announcement seems to have hit are Twitter and ycombinator.com
22:42:54 <ehirdiphone> Yeah, Unicode in TeX. Hahaha, what a silly idea.
22:43:40 <ehirdiphone> Remind me to eat after leaving. I'm starving.
22:43:56 <ehirdiphone> Have to scavenge something from my room...
22:45:03 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Are filesystem drivers servers in HURD?
22:46:25 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Quite a few hardware drivers.
22:46:55 <pikhq> Mouse, keyboard, text console.
22:47:17 <pikhq> I think also the block devices.
22:47:26 <pikhq> No, it doesn't have USB.
22:47:39 <pikhq> Because Linux 2.2 didn't, and they use Linux 2.2 drivers.
22:48:11 <pikhq> Would take approximately 0 work to make them be in userspace.
22:48:31 <pikhq> As you can make a server for literally ANY FILE. :)
22:49:55 <pikhq> No, the kernel does not even acknowledge the existence of a filesystem.
22:50:36 <pikhq> Mach provides message passing.
22:51:13 <ais523> if it's unaware of the existence of filesystems, is it technically a kernel?
22:51:20 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: The Mach microkernel that runs in kernelspace.
22:51:50 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Then it's hard to define what the kernel is. Everything else is daemons.
22:53:06 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Plan X will have a concept of / in the kernel, but only because the *whole OS* will be based on per-process namespaces.
22:53:23 <ais523> the kernel's / is a different / from everyone else's?
22:53:46 <ehirdiphone> ais523: In plan 9, every process has a different /
22:54:01 <pikhq> Whereas in HURD, a "file" is nothing more than a name provided for a port of a server.
22:54:07 <ais523> there's a global / too, though
22:54:11 <ais523> so the things can actually communicate
22:54:24 <pikhq> And most of the actual POSIX abstractions are coming out of libhurd.
22:54:28 <ehirdiphone> ais523: E.g. The rio wm works by rebinding the /dev/screen of its children, for instance.
22:54:56 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, process 1's namespace but thats irrelevant.
22:55:17 <ehirdiphone> They communicats by inheriting files served by other processes.
22:55:30 <ais523> so if you reference, say, /home/alise, how does Plan 9 resolve that?
22:55:42 <cpressey> The kernel's the part that, when it crashes, you're fucked.
22:55:59 <pikhq> cpressey: Then that's Mach.
22:56:10 <ais523> ehirdiphone: right, I forgot how Plan 9 actively hates the FHS
22:56:13 <ais523> rather than just ignoring it
22:56:18 <ais523> cpressey: that's a good definition
22:56:19 <pikhq> And *maybe* the authentication daemon.
22:56:31 <AnMaster> cpressey, only works if you have an MMU and such
22:56:37 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Your shell's /usr/alise. The same as your login process's, prolly.
22:56:44 <pikhq> But really, that's only if you happen to not be running a subHurd.
22:56:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, on classic MacOS, any program could result in that
22:57:06 <pikhq> (one can run a virtual Hurd system by starting another instance of the daemons.)
22:58:00 <pikhq> ais523: Plan 9 also has absolutely no reason to acknowledge the FHS. It is very much not Unix.
22:58:26 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Well. It's the official successor to 10th Edition Unix.
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22:59:10 <ehirdiphone> ais523: /usr for users dates back to PDP unix.
22:59:15 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yes, and Windows is the official successor to DOS, but that doesn't make it DOS.
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22:59:40 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You should know; you tried them out.
22:59:50 <nooga> are there some 'reverse parsers' for generating random expressions that match specified syntax?
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23:00:06 <nooga> because i wrote one and i don't know if it's worth releasing
23:00:15 -!- ehirdiphone has changed nick to alisephone.
23:00:43 <nooga> one person is enough :D
23:01:01 <ais523> I wrote one for ICA a whie back because I needed testcases
23:01:02 <nooga> don't know, maybe it's not me :D
23:01:03 <ais523> but it didn't work very well
23:01:38 <alisephone> ais523: Read "...because I needed testicles." :|
23:01:56 <ais523> nah, I have those already
23:02:31 <alisephone> pikhq: I plan to not have virtual consoles in kernel.
23:02:55 <ais523> idealized concurrent algol, it's one of the languages I work with in my day job
23:03:03 <alisephone> They'll be servers that hook into the video and keyboard daemons or something.
23:03:14 <pikhq> alisephone: HURD doesn't either.
23:03:23 <ais523> it's... basically, algol designed to work better for mathematicians
23:03:25 <pikhq> It has the *physical* console in kernel.
23:03:36 <ais523> as in, not to be easier to use, but to be easier to analyze mathematically
23:03:36 <pikhq> Because you kinda need to be in kernel-space to write to the VGA buffer.
23:03:52 <ais523> it's what computer scientists use if they want a vaguely imperative language to work with
23:04:08 <pikhq> ... How do you think a non-framebuffer text console works?
23:04:48 <pikhq> It writes ASCII and color info interspersed to the VGA buffer. Glee.
23:05:47 <alisephone> pikhq: Ooh, in true Plan tradition I get to improve C.
23:06:45 <nooga> alisephone: still hacking Plan9?
23:07:03 <alisephone> (A,B,C) = strict { A [0]; B [1]; C [2]; }
23:09:05 <ais523> <jk1150> Even in the most recent version of Lotus Notes, you will get an error if you are typing in the subject line and click the add attachment button. IBM says this is a feature because you cannot add an attachment to a subject line, I think it is disgusting.
23:09:08 <nooga> my crappy gsoc proposal for P9 was not accepted so i left the topic for a while
23:09:18 <ais523> I like the reasoning...
23:09:30 <nooga> now i'm playing with rails 3 & heroku
23:09:33 <alisephone> In fact, let it deconstruct arbitrary structs
23:10:44 <nooga> webdev is my current job
23:11:04 <nooga> and i do a lot of PHP which @#(&(&(@#**(#(*@#*#@*@# SUCKS
23:11:05 <alisephone> pikhq: Oh, and perhaps actual extensible types?
23:11:47 <nooga> i couldn't even find non-irritating MVC stack for PHP so i tried to write my own and failed :D
23:12:15 <alisephone> pikhq: Does Hurd have a concept of users?
23:12:39 <pikhq> alisephone: That's done by the authentication daemon.
23:12:46 <alisephone> In Plan 9ish systems, users are... A login process.
23:13:15 <ais523> in other news, this is my first nday playing B Nomic
23:13:34 <ais523> Teucer challenged my claim to be a newbie, and I was as shocked as he was
23:13:41 <ais523> strange the way the rules work out, sometimes
23:13:49 <alisephone> You don't seriously buy the Era 4-5 argument?
23:13:50 <ais523> you really can't take much about B's history for granted
23:14:01 <ais523> alisephone: eras 4 and 5 never happened, BGora didn't have ndays
23:14:12 <ais523> and yes, most of B buys that argument
23:14:38 <ais523> platonically, I mean; sure, people played through and enjoyed them, and we can still talk about events happening in them
23:14:42 <ais523> but they were ignored by the rules
23:14:53 <ais523> to be precise, they happened but the Clock was off continuously
23:15:04 <alisephone> I distinctly remember the argument sucking.
23:15:37 <alisephone> I think my nomic school is "formalism". :)
23:16:36 <alisephone> Alma mater: RMSN (The Retarded Monkey School of Nomic).
23:16:46 <ais523> alisephone: the rule allowing the clock to be switched back on was commented out
23:17:05 <ais523> and even if the original comment crisis argument sucked slightly, someone made a much better one later on that pointed out it was commented out with both definitions
23:18:14 <alisephone> ais523: Pretty sure B has never existed :P
23:18:17 <nooga> my flatmates are using too much bandwith
23:18:47 <nooga> some idiot secured the router
23:18:58 <ais523> alisephone: heh, I'm playing B under the name "703B E29B E9CC E4ED A7E2 7F62 1608 627B 1BA5 7726" because the requirement to be uniquely named is back, and I feared "ais523" might not be unique enough
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23:20:25 <ais523> meh, it's a GPG key fingerprint
23:20:30 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it's unique
23:20:56 <ais523> there are a suspiciously large number of Es in the first half, too
23:22:42 <ais523> there's quite a difference
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23:23:44 <ais523> Warrigal: an API to allow esoprograms to use operating system services, by Sgeo
23:23:47 <Gregor-W> PSOX is a system interface utilizing only stdout and stdin, so that it can be used by very restricted (esoteric) programming languages without modification.
23:23:54 <ais523> but its design made it basically only usable with BF
23:24:12 <ais523> because it relied on literal NUL characters a lot
23:24:19 <ais523> oh, I suppose Befunge can do those too
23:24:24 <ais523> but many esolangs can't
23:25:37 <Warrigal> I hope it was a binding to the C standard library.
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23:26:08 <Gregor-W> Of course. The only magic to it was that the interface between the language and it was very thin, just stdout/stderr.
23:26:22 <Gregor-W> It itself was just linked however it works on the host.
23:26:59 <ais523> meanwhile, reddit are debating the "M-x google-maps" command
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23:33:31 <ais523> AnMaster: not by default, someone implemented it
23:33:51 <ais523> I /hope/ it'll never get into the standard distribution
23:33:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what does it do? use picture-mode to display images?
23:34:03 <ais523> I think it's more complex than that, I haven't looked into it
23:34:32 <ais523> http://julien.danjou.info/blog/2010.html#M%2Dx%20google%2Dmaps
23:37:38 <ais523> as I said, I don't know the emails
23:37:41 <ais523> *don't know the details
23:37:48 <ais523> but Emacs is certainly capable of showing images
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23:56:42 <alisephone> Warrigal: No. Sgeo invented his own APIs.
23:58:44 <Sgeo_> Besides the NUL thing, howso?
23:59:04 <ais523> Knuth "also stated that this successor of TeX will have features like 3-D printing, animation, stereographic sound."
23:59:10 <ais523> hmm, has hit Slashdot, eventually
00:02:55 <alisephone> ais523: Wish you judged my CFJ UNDECIDABLE. :)
00:03:28 <Sgeo_> alisephone, besides the NUL thing, how were they bad?
00:03:41 <ais523> alisephone: I don't see any evidence for that
00:03:56 <ais523> and, you're probably lucky, the alternative would have been that your message ironically made you /deregister/ and get locked out for 30 days
00:06:41 * Sgeo_ wonders if he should make a PSOX2
00:06:50 <Gregor-W> <ais523> Knuth "also stated that this successor of TeX will have features like 3-D printing, animation, stereographic sound." ... huh?
00:07:03 <Sgeo_> And this time, keeping in mind the needs of a variety of languages
00:07:03 <ais523> Gregor-W: he was trolling, quite successfully
00:07:11 <ais523> I suppose, if you're Knuth, you can get away with it
00:12:17 <alisephone> ais523: Weak evidence: rules say A becomes B strongly, but it
00:12:48 <alisephone> It stays B - rules violated, change from A to B didn't happen
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00:13:04 <alisephone> It becomes A - not stated anywhere in rules, illogical
00:13:17 <alisephone> has to be one or the other but cannot be either
00:14:19 <alisephone> Mation of tex flowing text would be awesome
00:14:36 <alisephone> start at ragged right, hyphenate, justify, etc.
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00:23:06 <zzo38> I want to make skins for forum softwares, with these features: * The UNIX timestamp of the last new item in any file linked to, will be included in the query string of the hyperlink that points to that file. * All operation by keyboard. * Minimal (or none) CSS, and no icons (to use low bandwidth).
00:24:02 <nooga_> zzo38: write a BBS so we can telnet the board
00:24:48 <nooga_> i can provide you with brand new, 8088 based, custom built machine with 300 baud modem
00:24:50 <zzo38> That is also a idea.
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00:25:06 <zzo38> I do not need a computer with a 300 baud modem to do so, any computer will do.
00:25:22 <nooga_> but it won't be so cool
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00:25:29 <zzo38> Another idea is to provide all messages using 9P.
00:25:58 <nooga_> what's the point if you can't see when particular character appear on screen
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00:28:20 <zzo38> I use multiple protocols in my own services and try to be minimal as much as reasonable possibly to make nearly anything work in many cases. Web browser software is very complicated. I do it make even a simple software can also connect. I have both HTTP and Gopher services, and some files are accessible by both, but some are useful only one way
00:29:10 <nooga_> who uses gopher these days?
00:29:22 <zzo38> Very few people, but there are some
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00:29:41 <zzo38> (I am not the only one)
00:30:18 <Gregor-W> Basically, people use Gopher for the same reason that I have a VM that runs System V.
00:30:33 <Gregor-W> They're protocol archaeologists, I'm an OS archaeologist.
00:30:42 <zzo38> People use gopher protocol because it is simpler, mostly.
00:30:59 <zzo38> I often make files accessible both on gopher and on HTTP as well.
00:31:00 <Gregor-W> I don't believe that for a nanosecond.
00:31:20 <Gregor-W> People useD the Gopher protocol because it WAS simpler.
00:31:58 <Gregor-W> But now, whether it's simpler or not, the effort involved in delving into the past just to serve a protocol no one can use is higher than any relief you may get from having a simple underlying protocol.
00:32:57 <zzo38> I serve multiple protocols on my computer
00:33:18 <zzo38> I have three protocols server by now
00:33:42 <Gregor-W> I fail to see the relevance of that statement to my previous statement.
00:33:45 <nooga_> Gregor-W: where did you get System V?
00:35:08 <zzo38> When serving stuff by HTTP I use as less kind of complex HTML as possible, make sure JavaScript is not required to use any software (if it is, all JavaScript is optional), and use plain text files often.
00:35:17 <zzo38> But there are things that work well with HTTP/HTML/etc
00:36:24 <zzo38> But I like to design "command-web", meaning you can have a command-web inside of a HTML document or HTTP header, or by linked or by local aliases, and you can access it using the command-web client (even if you have no web-browser program), and make it workable like any other command-line program is, including parameters, redirect input/output, pipe, etc.
00:36:59 <zzo38> That it can be done even if your server serves static pages only, and only over HTTP, it can still be supported by anyone
00:38:15 <zzo38> (I am also currently playing a pinball game, called Jiggle Box. I think it is a very good one. In addition, in the background audio someone says "Why do women always get a place to sleep? Because they are the weaker sex. No, I think women are stronger. Do you know why? Because they get enough sleep, that's why.")
00:44:29 <Gregor-W> Honestly that quote just makes me wonder where these people live where the women sleep in lavish four-poster beds and the men sleep curled up in the fetal position in the corner of a concrete box.
00:45:58 <nooga_> in soviet russia ... ?
00:45:59 <zzo38> I also played D&D today, in case you were wondering
00:46:15 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, bed sleep on YOU!!
00:47:12 <zzo38> Are shadow mastifs good to eat?
00:47:26 <Gregor-W> In Soviet Russia, object verb SUBJECT!
00:48:16 <nooga_> mastifs is a good name for a new fs
00:48:36 <zzo38> Ah, yes. I suppose it can be made so
00:48:42 <zzo38> If somewould is going to do it
00:50:40 <zzo38> Oops, why did I write "somewould"? Is that a word?
00:51:30 <nooga_> i have so much work to do... i guess i will leave it and relax while implementing 9P in ruby or doing another useless thing
00:52:29 <zzo38> But, are shadow mastifs good to eat? This is what happened in D&D game today
00:55:28 <Gregor-W> nooga_: SUGGESTION FOR USELESS THING (depending on your C ability): Help extend Microcosm!
00:56:25 <zzo38> SUGGESTION: Write a brainfuck interpreter in FurryScript.
00:56:35 <zzo38> MORE SUGGESTION: See how many books you need to reach the ceiling.
00:57:13 <Gregor-W> nooga_: I'm so glad you asked!
00:57:17 <Gregor-W> I'll direct you to http://codu.org/projects/microcosm/ to answer that
00:57:58 <Gregor-W> We're actually talking in #microcosm about what the best quick-summary for what Microcosm is :P ... it's a portable psuedo-OS allowing you to run Microcosm binaries (ELF files for a POSIX-like platform) on "any" OS (or will be, once it's further implemented)
00:58:20 <zzo38> EVEN MORE SUGGESTION: Make a spell in D&D that is so complicated and obscure that nobody can figure out
00:59:08 <Gregor-W> nooga_: Come in to the Microcosm fold! You know you want to!
00:59:13 <zzo38> (Jiggle Box is one of my favorite pinball games. There is one feature it lacks which most modern pinball games have. Do you know what it is?)
00:59:39 <zzo38> Gregor-W: I think Microcosm might be good idea once it is written some more, possibly
01:00:08 <zzo38> Gregor-W: But can it run on different processors as well, or only x86?
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01:01:27 <Gregor-W> zzo38: Microcosm is not an architecture simulator, so you can only run Microcosm binaries intended for one architecture on the same architecture. It's only been ported to x86 and x86_64, but there's nothing inherantly unportable about it.
01:04:04 <zzo38> Perhaps also make up a new kind of virtual machine that can be compiled into native codes and have it that if the ELF binary uses that virtual machine, it will compile to a native code at first, but if it is already x86 it will just run it directly
01:04:30 <zzo38> I have discussed "restricted harvard architecture" before, as a way to ensure best optimization into native codes
01:04:56 <Gregor-W> We were talking earlier today about the feasibility of targeting LLVM as an "architecture" with ELF binaries.
01:05:19 <Gregor-W> Or, alternatively, targeting something like MIPS and creating a new user-process emulation for Qemu.
01:06:32 <zzo38> Do you know whether LLVM is restricted harvard?
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01:07:18 <Gregor-W> Honestly LLVM still confuses me a lot :P
01:07:27 <Gregor-W> (Only because I haven't looked in to it at all)
01:07:33 <zzo38> I have looked at it a little bit
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01:35:23 <pikhq> Gregor-W: LLVM is incredibly, incredibly simple.
01:35:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Do you know if LLVM is restricted harvard or not?
01:35:54 <pikhq> It's a single-static assignment assembly language that's easy to compile to other assembly languages and easy to optimise.
01:35:57 <pikhq> zzo38: Not even vaguely.
01:36:45 <Gregor-W> pikhq: I only get confused with LLVM when it comes to LLVM being compiled to native code so easily. If LLVM is so low level, then I can barely imagine how or where all the stupid issues of how you pass variables, pack structs and other such lunacy disappear.
01:37:15 <pikhq> Gregor-W: You generate machine-specific LLVM if you care about the details of that.
01:37:34 <pikhq> For instance, if you care about the struct packing for a 386 you pack it as though it were a 386.
01:37:51 <pikhq> It abstracts *just* the harder parts of compiling to native code, basically.
01:39:05 <Gregor-W> It's not strictly an assembly language, right? That is, it has a one-to-one conversion to/from "machine code" for an imaginary LLVM machine?
01:39:18 <Gregor-W> (Bytecode except not byte-code :P )
01:39:20 <pikhq> There is an LLVM bytecode as well, yes.
01:39:42 <pikhq> Most of the tools deal with LLVM bytecode, not LLVM assembly.
01:40:11 <pikhq> But since it *is* an assembly language, LLVM assembly is not *that* much more than an ASCII serialisation of LLVM bytecode. :P
01:40:42 <Gregor-W> So, the only thing I was confused about is that I didn't realize that you couldn't take .C files, compile them to one canonical chunk of LLVM bytecode, then compile that to a binary on any architecture.
01:41:03 <pikhq> You *can* do that just fine actually.
01:41:09 <pikhq> You just end up breaking ABI.
01:41:19 <Gregor-W> Well, you would have to make the most pessimistic assumptions about alignment and packing.
01:41:26 <pikhq> And breaking it *hard*...
01:41:42 <Gregor-W> There are systems where you simply cannot load data from an unaligned space, so you'd have to align everything to 8-bytes.
01:42:10 <Gregor-W> For that matter, how does word size work in LLVM?
01:42:11 <pikhq> You only really get system-arbitrary LLVM bytecodes for languages without a lot of low-level details already.
01:42:20 <zzo38> I have written program, such as CZZT the structures must all be packed otherwise it won't run. It also won't run on big-endian computers.
01:42:30 <pikhq> In which case you can just say "Figure this shit out, LLVM." I *think*.
01:42:30 <zzo38> So, I use SDL macros to test some things
01:42:46 <zzo38> It doesn't matter if the start of the structure is aligned or not, though. But the contents of the structure must be packed
01:42:50 <Gregor-W> zzo38: I would say you've written a bad program then :P
01:43:09 <zzo38> And they must remain in the order it is in, rather than changing the data around in the different order, it also won't work.
01:43:33 <zzo38> Gregor-W: You might say that. But it is done this way for compatiblity.
01:43:58 <zzo38> There are other things done too. It is designed to be compatible with a old DOS program written in Pascal, of which nobody has source-codes
01:44:42 <zzo38> Even the video memory structures are made to be same as the way that the IBM PC does in text mode
01:45:02 <zzo38> Although this new program is written in SDL, so it should work on any small-endian computer
01:45:18 <pikhq> Gregor-W: One needs to be aware of system word size.
01:45:34 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Yet another chink in LLVM's portability armor :P
01:45:46 <zzo38> In addition, this program requires 32-bit pointer sizes
01:45:57 <pikhq> It's not designed to be heavily portable. It's designed to be a nice language runtime backend.
01:46:03 <zzo38> If the target computer is big-endian or it has different pointer sizes, it won't compile.
01:46:30 <Gregor-W> pikhq: So if I did make a Microcosm-LLVM virtual machine, I'd need to make a Microcosm-LLVM32 and/or a Microcosm-LLVM64 virtual machine.
01:46:45 <Gregor-W> Something which e.g. Java can circumvent simply because it doesn't have pointers :P
01:47:08 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Actually, I think there's *ways* to make it run something kinda like C in that your program just accepts that different compilations will have different sizeof(void*)'s.
01:47:52 <pikhq> But I've not seen that in action, so I'm not sure.
01:48:04 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Compiling C to such a system would be lunacy, as sizeof(void*) wouldn't be a compiler-known constant, so even if it worked at the LLVM level it would break everything else.
01:48:05 <zzo38> Then don't use LLVM if you could instead make up a virtual machine that has restricted harvard architecture, it can have a pointer size that can be optimized into the target native code, for RAM pointer, but for ROM pointer there is no relevant pointer size because pointer into ROM is impossible
01:49:05 <Gregor-W> Of course, so long as Microcosm is a C-based system, we're stuck with having single-word-size binaries.
01:49:15 <Gregor-W> But I don't see why that should restrict us to single-architecture binaries.
01:49:50 <pikhq> BTW, fun fact: the LLVM linker lets symbols be unresolved at link time.
01:50:01 <pikhq> (so it can resolve at JIT time or native-code-generation time)
01:51:21 <pikhq> LLVM has a C backend.
01:54:30 <Gregor-W> C->LLVM->C->LLVM->C->... let's measure the eigenratio.
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02:04:02 <zzo38> Two characters in the D&D game eat shadow mastifs, my character and one non-player character
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02:39:20 <zzo38> Where can I find a list of what template files are needed in phpBB, and what the elements are that are used in each one?
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03:40:56 <zzo38> The CRTC has some stupid rules for the radio. One is that you are not allowed to play only part of a Canadian song. In addition there are rules for censorship that no pornography or swearing on radio, etc. I know some people don't like it (that includes myself), but I also like freedom of speech. I can propose a compromise, that such censorship is regulated only on odd numbered radio stations and not on even radio stations?
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06:43:36 <zzo38> That "Entropy" is interesting
06:44:15 <zzo38> When values are decay, does that include also the constant numbers in the program? It does include string literals, but does it include number
06:44:38 <zzo38> Also there is no list of commands and list of operators documented
06:45:03 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Entropy
06:50:54 * coppro should actually design/implement a language some day
06:52:00 <zzo38> coppro: Maybe do so some day?
06:52:27 <coppro> meh, that language is boring
06:52:49 <Sgeo_> Or design and implement crappy APIs!
06:52:59 <coppro> entertaining but positively useless
06:53:16 <zzo38> coppro: Yes mostly that is it
06:53:35 <zzo38> But there is not enough information about Entropy language, is still true
06:53:42 <Sgeo_> If you don't like useless, what are you doing here?
06:58:14 <pikhq> The Japanese are freaking crazy.
06:58:18 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Macrocheira_kaempferi.jpg The Japanese spider crab.
06:58:24 <pikhq> The leg span there is 12 feet.
07:00:16 <zzo38> When I ask some people on the other IRC about if shadow mastifs are good to eat, some people answer in different ways, including some people said only fox good to eat in that fantasy world, or don't understand why, or various
07:00:28 <coppro> pikhq: sounds delicious
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07:01:28 <pikhq> coppro: Y'know, actually.
07:01:41 <pikhq> Stick some butter on that and it probably *is* freaking delicious.
07:03:24 <zzo38> How often do you write "the"?
07:03:35 <zzo38> And how often do you write "I" and "you"?
07:04:02 <Gregor> The only time I would write any of them to /you/ is in this sentence.
07:05:45 <zzo38> OK that is a sentence
07:06:40 <zzo38> This is a sentence.
07:15:30 <fizzie> In a Google-provided corpus of 1024908267229 words collected from the interwebs, the word "the" is the most popular word, appearing 19401194714 times (1.89 %).
07:16:40 <fizzie> (I is on 15th place with 2744649681 occurrances, you is 18th with 2404223410. People on the internet care more about themselves than others, it seems.)
07:18:30 <fizzie> The top ten in order is: the, of, and, to, a, in, for, is, The, on. This seems to be case-sensitive, so I should've added "You" and "you" together, sorry about that.
07:20:03 <zzo38> It doesn't matter if you care about yourself or others, the reason for writing "I" or "you" is different things. Because there is different reasons for doing so. In addition, "I" might be used simply as a letter rather than as a word in some contexts.
07:23:51 <fizzie> Quasi-interestingly, if you take a selection of books from male and female authors, there is a noticeable difference in combined frequency counts of wordsets (she, her, hers, herself) and (he, him, his, himself) depending on the gender of the author.
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09:36:56 <nooga_> i've got a new project - running windows 3.0 on this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw
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09:41:30 <nooga_> It is reported to have a gentle disposition "in spite of its ferocious appearance".
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12:26:44 <Ilari> Heh... Computer makes noise if I use floodping. And if IPSec is used, the noise sounds really awful.
12:27:22 <Ilari> Some computer-internal EMI?
12:37:35 <Ilari> Haha... On blog post Comment #2: "Mmmmm.... braaaaaiiiinnnzzzz....". Comment #3: "Wow, 2 comments plus this one and no denialists yet. are the zombies sleeping?".
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15:04:16 <pikhq> The Pirate Party is now going to take over running the Pirate Bay.
15:04:25 <pikhq> ... *Inside Swedish parliament*.
15:05:34 <pikhq> Because Swedish politicians are almost entirely immune to prosecution from things done as part of their political goals.
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19:15:52 <zzo38> I wrote a program for CYOA type games in TAVSYS
19:15:53 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/lib/cyoa.4th
19:16:03 <zzo38> I can add more features if you have idea to add more features
19:18:37 <zzo38> Unfortunately there is not a lot of documentation, it only lists the error codes
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19:29:47 <zzo38> coppro: Hello, and good day, is it good day for you today?
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19:53:21 <zzo38> Please tell me, a question I did not get answer very satisfactory, is shadow mastifs good to eat? (in D&D)
19:53:45 <coppro> not very filling though
19:54:15 <zzo38> Why do you think that is the case?
19:55:43 <zzo38> I don't think it is actual shadow, I think it is proper physical object
19:56:07 <coppro> that's what they want you to think
19:59:42 <zzo38> It is not incorporeal. It is called "shadow" because they can hide in a shadow
20:01:40 <zzo38> Is it good for ettercap and/or otyugh to eat?
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23:18:02 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_11/mahjongflowchart.png
23:20:04 <Ilari> What's that "fat player's mahjong" about?
23:20:20 <zzo38> Ilari: I don't know.
23:20:44 <zzo38> Maybe it is from some manga I have not seen
23:22:17 <zzo38> I don't know how eating more can possibly give you a better chance for daisangen.
23:26:34 <Ilari> It is waiting activity (since metabolism control is busted and one is almost continuously hungry)?
23:27:48 <zzo38> Ilari: I am not sure
23:27:59 <zzo38> Daisangen is just a certain combination of tiles that you can have
23:28:27 <zzo38> It means three or four of each sangenpai (often called "dragons" in English).
23:28:44 <zzo38> It is a yakuman hand, which means it scores the maximum if you are East.
23:28:48 <Ilari> zzo38: Essentially 'eat' there replacing 'wait'.
23:29:44 <zzo38> Ilari: Ah, OK. You might have to play a lot before getting such tiles as that.
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23:34:05 <Ilari> Its amazing how often people with damaged metabolism controls go hungry (and then eat, usually not-good-for-you stuff).
23:35:05 <zzo38> I can explain most of the stuff in the mahjong flowchart, but I don't know what "squigglies" is
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23:45:58 <zzo38> Uncertainty Principle's Office: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/FatherHeisenberg.PNG
23:48:22 <zzo38> I did packaged the IRCd codes but it isn't very good packaged. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ircd/
23:52:20 <zzo38> Not many people understand evolution properly, but how many people are *that* bad http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/evolution_should_not.jpg
23:54:02 <zzo38> What does the error message "rDrebTenrsr nc RRdnrTSb SncrrebdRRdncsretrepscdogtia inte F t" supposed to mean??
23:56:02 <Ilari> Uh... No idea... What language it is supposed to be in anyway?
23:58:11 <zzo38> I don't know. I got this error in QuickBasic once
23:59:27 <zzo38> Something similar, in an unsubscribe form I have seen where it says "Please indicate why you are unsubscribing" but the only choices is "toto" and "titi"
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09:10:14 <coppro> Am I the only one here who finds it weird that ":vim" in vim is the command to grep?
09:21:32 <fizzie> Well, it's just an unambiguous abbreviation of "vimgrep", the full command name.
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09:22:07 <fizzie> (There is also :grep, which uses an external grep utility.)
09:22:23 <coppro> fizzie: I know what it is
09:22:40 <fizzie> But it's not as weird as calling the command just "vim".
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16:37:19 <pikhq> GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes.
16:41:25 <Deewiant> strip -s typically halves them
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17:25:37 <cheater99> pikhq: what's the largest you got?
17:28:11 <AnMaster> <pikhq> GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes. <-- worse than GCC?
17:28:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, the thing is, static linking is the default in GHC.
17:29:15 <oerjan> what's the size of "main = return ()" ? :D
17:30:41 <oerjan> they only recently got dynamic linking working in any implementations at all, iirc
17:30:50 <pikhq> oerjan: 12K with dynamic linking.
17:30:58 <pikhq> Which appears to be the minimum GHC binary size.
17:31:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, what was size before strip?
17:31:32 <pikhq> The thing is, there's a massive chunk of stuff in there.
17:31:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, is all that really needed?
17:31:45 <pikhq> As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there.
17:31:58 <pikhq> The garbage collector probably is.
17:32:21 <pikhq> The thread implementation is probably not.
17:32:24 <AnMaster> <pikhq> As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there. <-- doesn't linking against *.a just pull the files you actually need?
17:32:45 <pikhq> Yes, but it pulls in the entire contents of those files.
17:32:50 <Deewiant> Run your ./donothing +RTS --help and see what you've got
17:33:08 <pikhq> Massive chunk of stuff.
17:33:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, split it in more files then
17:33:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: GHC isn't a magic-worker.
17:33:53 <pikhq> Also, most of it's going to be pulled in anyways.
17:33:55 <Deewiant> It could, in theory, notice that your program doesn't use the GC at all
17:34:07 <pikhq> Because you can pass arguments to the RTS...
17:34:14 <Deewiant> But since only trivial hello-world or do-nothing level programs do that, there's no point
17:34:39 <pikhq> Letting you configure a lot of stuff with the GC, the threading library, etc.
17:35:10 <oerjan> they're apparently going to turn off +RTS handling by default iirc, it's a security hole
17:35:39 <oerjan> it allows specifying some output files iirc
17:36:13 <pikhq> For GC stat logging.
17:36:46 <Deewiant> std::cout << "Hi\n"; is 496K with g++ and a statically linked libstdc++
17:37:00 <Deewiant> GHC isn't that amazing IMO :-P
17:38:06 <pikhq> Yeah, int main(){} statically linked is 580K.
17:38:18 <pikhq> Glibc is designed by retards apparently.
17:38:59 <oerjan> it's designed by a guy who violently spits on anyone suggesting they should try to save memory, iirc
17:39:19 <pikhq> Freaking Ulrich Drepper.
17:39:37 <oerjan> (aka being useful for embedded devices)
17:42:20 <pikhq> Yeah, glibc is pretty feature-complete, but it comes at the expense of being usable on anything with less than, oh, 64M of RAM.
17:55:07 <Deewiant> pikhq: How'd you manage that? My int main(){} was 6.3K (smaller than the dynamically linked one)
17:55:20 <pikhq> Deewiant: ... Glibc?
17:55:36 <AnMaster> with uclibc it was smaller for me, with glibc it was larger
17:56:14 <Deewiant> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.0/../../../../lib/libstdc++.a
17:56:32 <Deewiant> I don't have any other libc's here AFAIK :-P
17:56:40 <pikhq> That's not even libc.
17:56:53 <pikhq> int main(){}, build with gcc -static.
17:57:43 <Deewiant> I googled it and found a reference to a non-working -static-libgcc and a recommendation to hide libstdc++.so
17:57:57 <Deewiant> Where "it" is static linking with g++
17:58:08 <Deewiant> I was talking about C++ from the start :-P
17:59:46 <Deewiant> I felt the comparison was more meaningful that way since GHC also dynamically links libc
18:11:26 <pikhq> ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libgcc/config/libbid/bid_decimal_globals.c:47:18: fatal error: fenv.h: No such file or directory
18:11:33 <pikhq> I hate you so much GCC.
18:16:18 <oerjan> hey we're (the wiki) on the reddit front page
18:18:55 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/clhyt/internet_relay_programming/c0tff21
18:26:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Tweeted: About NetHack: perceptive of you to the ground, with a single strong, yet impervious to gravity? he invites the very devil, an off-shoot..."
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18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:03 <pikhq> OMFG.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:16 <pikhq> The Pirate Party is now going to take over running the Pirate Bay.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:25 <pikhq> ... *Inside Swedish parliament*.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:05:34 <pikhq> Because Swedish politicians are almost entirely immune to prosecution from things done as part of their political goals.
18:59:13 <pikhq> mlterm is an amazing terminal.
19:00:32 <alise> IS IT REALLY THOUGH
19:01:22 <pikhq> It handles languages correctly.
19:02:28 <oerjan> yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo
19:02:31 <oerjan> yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo
19:05:53 <Gregor> http://nedroid.com/2010/07/a-holiday-reminder/
19:06:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:08:09 <oerjan> never swallow rockets, especially when lighted
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19:12:41 <alise> Gracenotes: <3 nedroid
19:12:59 <Gracenotes> I AGREE EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE NOT TALKING TO ME ;_;
19:16:45 <pikhq> I CAN TYPE PAUL ERDŐS AGAIN!
19:19:06 <alise> 12:01:29 <ghostwriter42> http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number"
19:20:49 <alise> 12:32:53 <coppro> <3 Glee
19:20:56 <alise> I hope not the awful TV show.
19:21:13 <coppro> alise: it is not awful. It has music.
19:21:29 <alise> I do hope you're joking.
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19:21:46 <pikhq> Anyways: I've got a terminal that handles Unicode actually correctly.
19:21:52 <pikhq> Unlike urxvt, which claims to and fails.
19:22:03 <pikhq> coppro: Terminal emulator
19:22:16 <oerjan> aka terminator. wait...
19:22:34 <pikhq> How does it handle bidirectional text?
19:22:36 <alise> 16:44:29 <Gregor-W> Honestly that quote just makes me wonder where these people live where the women sleep in lavish four-poster beds and the men sleep curled up in the fetal position in the corner of a concrete box.
19:22:44 <pikhq> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_(terminal_emulator)
19:23:01 <coppro> pikhq: Oh... that I have no clue of
19:23:04 <alise> i used terminator for a while
19:23:09 <coppro> Can you give me a sample so that I can test it?
19:26:10 <pikhq> That should render as the same glyphs as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabic_albayancalligraphy.svg
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19:29:06 <pikhq> And there's the glyphs by themselves, so you can see if it's doing the complex layout correctly, as well.
19:36:18 <alise> pikhq: Terminator also does Unicode spectacularly, BTW.
19:36:42 <alise> pikhq: ... As does rio...
19:37:19 <pikhq> Not enough things do.
19:39:21 * pikhq shall check out terminator
19:40:11 <oklopol> SimonRC: was it you who was obsessed with lucid dreaming at some point, or was it pikhq
19:41:12 <oklopol> last night i had one where i created a few people and asked them to play me a song, to see how good a song my brain could come up with on the fly
19:41:56 <pikhq> Hmm. So far I see two major failings in Terminator.
19:41:57 <oklopol> i remember it was awesome, but the actual details i remember are really weird and stupid :P
19:42:00 <pikhq> First, it doesn't handle IMEs.
19:42:09 <pikhq> Second, it doesn't handle bidirectional text.
19:42:51 <pikhq> mlterm seems to be rendering underscores oddly.
19:43:14 <pikhq> Basically, it isn't aware of where they get rendered, so it ends up not actually clearing them from the screen.
19:44:20 <pikhq> Is it too much to ask for a terminal without bugs?
19:46:02 <pikhq> Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works.
19:52:42 <alise> pikhq: Third, Terminator is Java.
19:52:54 <alise> <pikhq> Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works. <-- OTOH, you have to deal with line spacing 1.
19:53:26 <pikhq> Said pixel being where the underscore goes.
19:55:35 <alise> So, am I right in thinking that I could get out of an EU country's mandatory military service by not being a proper resident but only a European Citizen?
19:56:32 <pikhq> Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*.
19:56:33 <Deewiant> Don't all military services require citizenship of the country anyway
19:56:55 <AnMaster> the French have some foreign legion or such iirc?
19:56:59 <pikhq> The US and French militaries, for instance, quite approve of foreign volunteers.
19:57:13 <pikhq> The French Foreign Legion comes with automatic French citizenship.
19:57:27 <Deewiant> Hmm, I thought the US required it
19:57:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, so you drop your old citizenship?
19:57:35 <Deewiant> Should've remembered the French though
19:57:38 <pikhq> Deewiant: Fast track to citizenship.
19:57:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, they allow dual citizenship.
19:57:50 <Deewiant> But that still counts as requiring it :-P
19:57:50 <alise> <pikhq> Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*.
19:57:56 <alise> Then Finland is on the cards again.
19:57:58 <pikhq> Deewiant: No, they don't require it.
19:58:04 <alise> (I refuse to be drafted.)
19:58:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, does your host country do that though=
19:58:07 <pikhq> However, by being in the military, citizenship is very easy.
19:58:16 <Deewiant> alise: You could've just said Finland instead of "an EU country" although I guessed that one anyway ;-P
19:58:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Most nations allow it.
19:58:24 <alise> Deewiant: Did I need to say Finland? :)
19:58:55 <Deewiant> alise: In Finland, you can also do the civil service even if you do get drafted, if you just don't want to do military stuff
19:59:01 <alise> Deewiant: Oh, so that's why you're a hideously intelligent sociopath: they teach you their secrets in the military, then make you blow people up with them. Well, okay, so I invented the sociopath thing myself.
19:59:08 <alise> Deewiant: Yeah, but I also don't want to do the civil service :P
19:59:12 <pikhq> alise: Also, fun fact: all nations with mandatory military service in Europe do not have those forced ever be deployed.
19:59:25 <pikhq> It'd be political suicide, obviously.
19:59:38 <Deewiant> alise: You can also go to jail to spend the minimum amount of time ;-P
19:59:41 <pikhq> They have, in effect, volunteer armies, yet force people to do random training for a year or two.
19:59:43 <alise> pikhq: In Finland you can serve a jail sentence instead.
19:59:55 <alise> Which is just totally awesome!
20:00:01 <alise> But I think I'll just live with being a second-class citizen.
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20:00:11 <alise> Actually, can't European citizens of age even vote in their resident country?
20:00:16 <pikhq> alise: Hardly even "second-class".
20:00:19 <pikhq> Yes, you can vote.
20:00:47 <pikhq> Pretty much the only thing that makes you second-class is a need to carry around your passport.
20:00:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if I moved to Denmark I could vote in both Denmark and in Sweden?
20:01:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, do I get two votes to the EU parliament? ;)
20:01:48 <alise> pikhq: Also, Mr. Immigration Expert, how do I renounce my British citizenship? And can I still be a European citizen?
20:02:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, what if I moved into a house placed right on top of the German/Danish border? Could I vote in 3 countries then?
20:02:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That house would be disambiguated :-P
20:02:40 <pikhq> alise: Varies from nation to nation.
20:03:05 <alise> AnMaster: What if the two countries had varying age of consent laws, and you fucked someone in the middle of the age bracket half on the border and half not?!
20:03:18 <pikhq> The typical process, though, involves going to the nearest embassy, declaring intent to renounce citizenship, and then relinquishing your passport.
20:03:19 <alise> I guess the half the vagina is on might matter.
20:03:29 <pikhq> They will probably also require proof that you have other citizenship.
20:03:32 <alise> pikhq: The passport thing might be an issue.
20:03:37 <alise> pikhq: So I can't just be an EU citizen?
20:03:48 <AnMaster> alise, awesome idea with that "right in the middle"
20:03:49 <pikhq> No, as the EU is not a sovereign nation.
20:04:03 <alise> pikhq: Dammit, why not?!
20:04:11 <AnMaster> alise, alas I don't know the answer
20:04:14 <alise> pikhq: I don't want to be British but I don't want to be Finnish either :P
20:04:19 <pikhq> Because Europeans go "ZOMG NEED NATIONS"
20:04:32 <alise> AnMaster: The answer is that the nations would decide who has sovereignity over the house, probably, and the borders would change accordingly.
20:04:42 <alise> AnMaster: Alternatively, you wouldn't be granted permission to build the house. This is the most likely scenario.
20:04:45 <pikhq> alise: If you got employed at Vatican City you could become Vatican.
20:04:58 <alise> pikhq: I don't need physical molestation to go with the emotional!
20:05:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: If they grant permission to build the house, they will sign a treaty to note who has jurisdiction over the building.
20:06:07 <pikhq> This is how it works with things like CERN, which are on national borders.
20:06:15 <pikhq> I doubt they'll sign a treaty for a *house*, so.
20:06:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh, aren't there any existing buildings that crosses any borders?
20:06:29 <pikhq> Governed by treaties.
20:06:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, even for small cottages on borders or such?
20:06:57 <pikhq> They draw borders around them.
20:07:16 <pikhq> There's also a few border disputes because of things like that.
20:07:27 <alise> draw a big trans-border house shaped like a penis
20:07:30 <alise> get borders changed
20:07:52 <pikhq> National borders are *such* a bizarre thing.
20:08:47 <AnMaster> alise, probably the border will end up with a rectangular hole for it
20:09:17 <alise> AnMaster: no, nobody would give up more than is strictly necessary!
20:09:25 <alise> also, geometric borders would be weird.
20:09:35 <pikhq> alise: "All categories of British nationality can be renounced by a declaration made to the Home Secretary. A person ceases to be a British national on the date that the declaration of renunciation is registered by the Home Secretary. If a declaration is registered in the expectation of acquiring another citizenship, but one is not acquired within six months of the registration, it does not take effect and the person is considered to have r
20:09:56 <alise> AnMaster: AFRICA IS WEIRD MAN.
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20:10:06 <pikhq> to have remained a British national."
20:10:10 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg Not all /that/ geometric.
20:10:31 <alise> pikhq: So I could only renounce my British citizenship by becoming a Finnish citizen, then, and thus suffering the draft.
20:10:32 <pikhq> So, you need to gain other citizenship to lose British citizenship, full-stop.
20:10:36 <AnMaster> alise, there are several straight lines though
20:10:41 <alise> It's just paranoia tells me to get the fuck away from the British government in any way possible.
20:10:48 <fizzie> CERN has a border going right through their campus; I think the border still goes right through, but they also don't care about it much. Of course they have quite a lot of identity-checking on the campus gates, so...
20:11:13 <coppro> fizzie: It's also a Schengen border
20:11:38 <pikhq> fizzie: It's a Schengen border, *and* sovereignity is defined.
20:11:50 <pikhq> IIRC, all but one of the buildings is under French jurisdiction.
20:12:13 <coppro> alise: no, you could also become a stateless person (not recommended)
20:12:30 <pikhq> There's also an airport on the US/Canada border...
20:12:31 <alise> coppro: Just curious, why would that be unrecommended? :P
20:12:35 <alise> Lack of any rights?
20:12:35 <pikhq> This works very oddly.
20:12:44 <coppro> AnMaster: no nationality
20:12:48 <alise> Could I be an EU citizen? I suppose not :-P
20:13:12 <pikhq> Past the security gates in an international airport is considered to be only under international law.
20:13:13 <AnMaster> alise, and this means you are moving abroad?
20:13:15 <alise> AnMaster: But I'd rather live in Finland. :P
20:13:25 <alise> There's interesting people in Finland. Sweden...
20:13:34 <pikhq> As such: one side of the building is under US jusrisdiction, one is under Canada, and the middle is under NONE AT ALL.
20:13:37 <alise> pikhq: Is there an international age of consent?
20:13:52 <alise> If not: Pedobear tiem
20:14:01 <alise> "You wanna go on a plane, little girl?"
20:14:07 <alise> "I got a biiiig loooong aeroplane..."
20:14:17 <pikhq> alise: The *plane* is under the jurisdiction of the country it's over.
20:14:31 <alise> pikhq: "You know what, little girl? Let's just stay here."
20:14:35 <pikhq> "Jurisdiction" is really not set up for modern transit.
20:14:53 <alise> pikhq: I am founding the United State of No Planes Allowed.
20:14:59 <coppro> pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun
20:15:02 <alise> Let's all just claim tiny little islands and make flight patterns a hell of a lot more complicated.
20:15:04 <alise> [[While stateless persons were more common before the 20th century, when many states were somewhat fragile entities, on September 20, 1954 the United Nations adopted the Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons: an active policy to prevent people becoming or remaining stateless.]]
20:15:08 <alise> coppro: HOW AM BECOME STATELESS
20:15:11 <pikhq> alise: Perfectly possible.
20:15:20 <alise> [[Principle 3 of the 1959 Declaration of the Rights of the Child asserts that:
20:15:21 <alise> "The child shall be entitled from his birth to a name and a nationality."]]
20:15:32 <pikhq> alise: The UK makes a point of not allowing anyone to become stateless.
20:15:40 <alise> So how am become stateless!
20:15:45 <AnMaster> <coppro> pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun <-- oh?
20:15:51 <pikhq> It is literally impossible to lose UK citizenship without having another citizenship.
20:16:04 <alise> pikhq: Mind, I don't actually want to. Having UK citizenship is completely harmless, right?
20:16:27 <pikhq> ... Hmm. Is the NHS UK or British?
20:16:47 <coppro> AnMaster: We have US preclearance, so in some parts of the airport, you're legally in Canada; other parts you're waiting to immigrate, and other parts you're waiting to emigrate. Because of the changing volumes of traffic, these zones change throughout the day.
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20:16:57 <alise> pikhq: English, but I'm sure the other analogues would cooperate.
20:16:58 <pikhq> National Health Service.
20:17:01 <alise> AnMaster: National "Health" Service.
20:17:10 <AnMaster> coppro, what... that made no sense
20:17:20 <alise> AnMaster: The unit happens to be under its jurisdiction; so I would prefer you used the proper name, "National Hell Service".
20:17:30 <coppro> AnMaster: In most major Canadian airports, you clear US customs before leaving (if you're going to the USA)
20:18:10 <coppro> AnMaster: have you ever been through customs in a busy US airport? If so, you'd understand why.
20:18:15 <AnMaster> coppro, so how do those zones change in size? some marker being moved?
20:18:21 <coppro> AnMaster: security doors and such
20:18:28 <AnMaster> coppro, I have never been outside Europe
20:18:33 <pikhq> alise: Dude, you could escape to a different constituent country of the UK if you felt that they wouldn't cooperate.
20:18:40 <AnMaster> coppro, in fact, I been to Sweden, Norway and Denmark
20:18:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: US customs is a pain even if you're a US citizen.
20:18:52 <alise> pikhq: I disagree.
20:18:59 <alise> pikhq: There is generally[2] no discrimination when a patient resident in one country of the United Kingdom requires treatment in another. The consequent financial matters and paperwork of such inter-working are dealt with between the organisations involved and there is generally no personal involvement by the patient comparable to that which might occur when a resident of one European Union member country receives treatment in another.
20:19:04 <ais523> coppro: I've actually seen that, I've been in a Canadian airport
20:19:10 <alise> pikhq: i.e., they have an intense relationship with each other and are completely transparent for the patient.
20:19:24 <alise> i.e., "We have a wonderful Scottish unit for you..."
20:19:25 <pikhq> Other nation then.
20:19:29 <ais523> the amount of security difference between the US and non-US side was staggering
20:19:29 <alise> pikhq: That is the plan.
20:19:41 <pikhq> I'd imagine it's actual hell if you aren't a US citizen...
20:19:46 <coppro> it's pretty silly actually
20:19:55 <pikhq> ais523: We love our security theater.
20:20:08 <coppro> "You're going to the US? We must do what the USA overlords say! Everyone strip!" "You're going somewhere else? Oh, carry on then."
20:20:34 <pikhq> I say "theater" because if I wanted to cause major havoc, I'd set off a bomb at the security station...
20:20:48 <ais523> pikhq: in the UK, they even check for that
20:20:52 <pikhq> Or build one out of 1 oz liquid bottles after security.
20:20:53 <alise> pikhq: You are now being monitored by ECHELON. Congratulations!
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20:21:55 <ais523> IIRC there was someone who cooked a three-course meal on a plane
20:22:01 <pikhq> Guess I'll need to shave off all my hair, go to Japan, and call myself 榛林・神支.
20:22:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, why aren't you using ssl for freenode?
20:22:52 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] is using a secure connection
20:22:54 <alise> AnMaster: Because #esoteric is publicly logged.
20:23:05 <alise> And I don't talk about my rape-murders here.
20:23:08 <AnMaster> alise, yes true, but what about all other channels
20:23:17 <coppro> I'm not on a secure connection because I could care less about whether any of my conversation here is public
20:23:28 <alise> AnMaster: Of which I am present in none, and I would probably never say anything particularly worth monitoring in a technology-related channel, as the channels on this network are suppsoed to be.
20:23:30 <coppro> most of my channels aren't even +s
20:23:35 <AnMaster> coppro, actually I'm on it for nickserv password not to be stolen
20:23:45 <ais523> most of the channels I'm on are either logged, or populated enough that it would be trivial to log them secretly without people noticing
20:23:49 <alise> ECHELON only looks for terrorism-related keywords, apparently. Admittedly, not the most trustable source -- them -- but still.
20:23:53 <alise> They couldn't possibly monitor /everything/.
20:23:59 <coppro> I use a throwaway password for NickServ
20:24:18 <alise> ais523: trivial to monitor even on small channels if you use e.g. Tor to serve the logs and keep your computer on 24/7 :P
20:24:28 <ais523> among other things, it's too easy to type the password in-channel by mistake
20:24:34 <alise> I use my one and only password for NickServ but that's a mistake of years ago and fixing it is something for another day.
20:24:36 <ais523> alise: on very small channels, you know everyone there
20:24:52 <ais523> so if someone's logging secretly, you have quite an idea of who it is
20:25:15 <AnMaster> <coppro> I use a throwaway password for NickServ
20:25:23 <alise> But still nothing.
20:25:25 * AnMaster use random generated strings for everything
20:25:34 <fizzie> Even with a throwaway password, someone might identify as you and then do IRREPARABLE HARM to your Freenode reputation!
20:25:42 <alise> AnMaster: I don't think anyone in here could have guessed anything less.
20:25:46 <alise> You're not exactly unpredictable.
20:25:47 <alise> AnMaster: Really now?
20:25:57 <alise> You are though, on the level of the disorder. :)
20:26:13 <AnMaster> alise, why should I trust you on that ;)
20:27:23 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I'm logging. To an encrypted volume. Private logs. When rotated to cd after 2 years or so: encrypted as well
20:27:48 <alise> Maybe we should institutionalise AnMaster.
20:27:48 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I have privlogs somewhere too, although I don't post them without permission of everyone involved
20:29:17 <alise> How on earth does one start work on such a project as this...
20:29:17 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:29:44 <coppro> alise: step 1: surreptitiously exchange your passports
20:30:32 <alise> coppro: With ... what?
20:30:32 <Sgeo__> http://notalwaysright.com/till-password-reset-do-us-part/6004
20:30:46 <Sgeo__> Who finds the fact that the password is stored more painful than the customer?
20:30:52 <coppro> then AnMaster gets institutionalised and you're free
20:31:07 <alise> coppro: Ooh, nice idea. Actually, scratch that: crap idea.
20:31:37 <alise> Sgeo__: Who said it was stored?
20:31:56 <Sgeo__> The fact that the password is visible to the worker in the call center?
20:32:10 <alise> Sgeo__: It's not a password, it's a security "password".
20:32:14 <alise> It being visible is to be expected.
20:33:17 <Sgeo__> Those sorts of passwords are lame and shouldn't exist.
20:33:23 <ais523> it's not a computer password, it's the sort of password you say to a human
20:33:27 <Sgeo__> ALthough I don't know what the alternative is
20:33:39 <ais523> and humans are generally incapable of doing secure hashes in their head, so they generally know the plaintext version
20:33:58 <alise> My secret answers are always woiyaq984U095VWOR'V#[;A@waie()!&"(*¬.
20:34:04 <alise> My mother had a really strange maiden name.
20:34:36 <fizzie> ais523: The call center person could still have some sort of an app where it types in what the customer said and gets a yes/no indication back.
20:34:44 <fizzie> (Of course spelling issues and so on.)
20:34:45 <ais523> alise: what about servers that think that ¬ is some sort of SQL injection attack?
20:34:57 <ais523> hmm, we need fuzzy hashes for passwords
20:35:00 <ais523> which are yet somehow still secure
20:35:02 <alise> ais523: They're evil people who disrespect my mother.
20:35:07 <coppro> pet peeve: people who say EST when they mean EDT
20:35:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think ' is more common "ooh, a scary character" in SQL than ".
20:35:19 <alise> Pet peeve: Pet peeves.
20:35:23 <Deewiant> Pet peeve: people who use anything but UTC±n
20:35:35 <ais523> Deewiant: generally speaking, people who disallow things in passwords because they're scared of injection attacks don't do so in any particularly logical way
20:35:53 <fizzie> Pet peeve: the last word in the pet business; forget cats and dogs, those are so last-millennium.
20:35:57 <alise> Pet peeve: People who use anything but UTC :P
20:35:58 <ais523> people who know what they're doing just use parameterized queries (or stored procedures, which implies parameterized)
20:36:06 <alise> Pet peeve: pet rocks.
20:36:36 <alise> Pet peeve: Pet peeves of "peeved pets"; peeved pets with pet peeves.
20:36:42 <pikhq> Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks.
20:36:43 <alise> ais523: Or ¬SQL :P
20:37:01 <alise> pikhq: I don't know if I sync mine.
20:37:03 <alise> Ooh, I'm so naughty.
20:39:29 <ais523> mostly because it's easier than remembering when DST starts and ends
20:39:47 <ais523> Windows always used to ask for confirmation when DST started and ended
20:39:48 <alise> Your computer can do that automatically regardless. :P
20:39:53 <alise> ais523: ah yeah i remember that
20:39:58 <alise> "I changed the clock. Did... did I do well?"
20:40:05 <alise> Deewiant: Nonsense.
20:40:26 <ais523> which was especially annoying because I had a computer with a broken RTC (it didn't work while power was off), so you had to set it during boot, and Windows always corrected the correct time to a wrong one after a DST change
20:40:29 <ais523> so you had to change it back
20:40:47 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes, and there's a handy-dandy UTC time source for them.
20:41:08 <alise> I don't think my physical clocks are expensive enough to synchronise.
20:42:08 <Deewiant> I'm fine with a few minutes' inaccuracy
20:42:47 <Deewiant> It's not like I need the precisely correct time for anything
20:43:04 <ais523> alise: clocks in computers are physical too
20:43:10 <ais523> a virtual clock wouldn't work if you turned the computer off
20:43:29 <coppro> my wristwatch is currently 35.5 seconds behind MDT
20:43:31 <alise> ais523: Oh, shut up.
20:43:47 <alise> My wristwatch is currently nonexistent.
20:43:59 <alise> I'm, like, an anarchist, going around without all these possessions and reminders of the constant passage of time to weigh me down.
20:44:12 <alise> Deewiant: Mountie Djawesome Time.
20:44:22 <alise> It's the official timezone of the Federated States of Canadia.
20:44:31 <alise> OTOH, it might just be Calgary's time zone.
20:44:37 <alise> Mountain Time Zone, apparently.
20:44:54 <alise> MDT = Mountain Time Zone. Hmm.
20:44:58 <pikhq> alise: My pocketwatch is broken.
20:45:04 <alise> *Mountain Daylight Time
20:45:13 <pikhq> So, I have a constant reminder of the constant non-passage of time.
20:45:25 <alise> pikhq: Technically I'm lying as if I was going anywhere as an actual thing I'd take my phone.
20:45:33 <pikhq> "It's *still* 11:11! Awesome!"
20:45:41 <alise> That iPhone sure has been good to me.
20:46:23 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks. <-- agreed
20:47:10 <alise> I have replaced AnMaster with a very small program. Have any of you noticed?
20:47:47 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Thanks, NIST! <-- NIST?
20:48:07 <pikhq> National Instute of Standards and Technology.
20:48:24 <pikhq> Among other things, they've got an atomic clock hooked to a radio broadcast.
20:49:01 <alise> AnMaster: Hey, don't talk back at your creator.
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20:49:20 <AnMaster> alise, you wrote an AI... *kills alise*
20:49:35 <alise> AnMaster: Wow, I didn't code in a strong lampshading of North American...ism. Emergent behaviour.
20:49:45 <alise> AnMaster: Now, I /did/ code in shitty jokes, so you're not surprising me.
20:50:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, a few other countries do something similar.
20:50:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is one in Germany that is usable here in Sweden
20:50:28 <pikhq> And it's all on longwave, so it's kinda hard to not be able to pick up.
20:51:20 <Deewiant> Self-syncing clocks are too hi-fi for me
20:51:27 <alise> Deewiant: Do you ever just walk into Russia and go "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA"?
20:51:34 <alise> If so, why not? Your country borders Russia, you know.
20:51:37 <alise> You should do that.
20:51:40 <alise> You should go do that right now.
20:51:43 <alise> You could use a car.
20:51:59 <alise> You can drive to the border and then walk into Russia.
20:52:04 <alise> This is a great idea and you should do it immediately.
20:52:12 <Deewiant> It's also completely pointless
20:52:14 <alise> You could take a train.
20:52:24 <alise> You'd be in Russia, going "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA".
20:52:27 <alise> Therefore you should do it.
20:52:41 <alise> Why is goodness good? How can I answer such a tautological question?
20:55:07 <alise> So, I read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency this morning.
20:55:28 <alise> If you're wondering whether it is good, why? Douglas Adams wrote it; of course it's good, you moron.
20:57:17 <coppro> it needs to be read twice to be fullly appreciated
20:57:38 <alise> Maybe I will; maybe I won't. I have a feeling Dirk would be a whole lot less amusing now that I know exactly how it all happened.
20:57:46 <alise> Also, you have an extra "l" there.
20:57:54 <alise> I will put it in a museum: "l"
20:58:12 <alise> "Reg, while possessed, unwittingly uses his time machine to amuse a young girl at a college dinner with a magic trick- removing a simple salt cellar and apparently concealing it in an old pot the girl had discovered-, inadvertently bringing back a faulty Electric Monk which the ghost had hoped to use itself- Electric Monks are designed to believe things for you so that the owner does not have to believe them themselves, but this Monk has suffered a fault and
20:58:12 <alise> is incapable of believing anything for longer than five minutes-, but instead lets it go free" --Wikipedia
20:58:18 <alise> TOO MANY DASHES AND COMMAS
20:58:47 <pikhq> The nesting is needed.
20:59:19 <alise> They could have at least used parentheses. Or actual dash characters.
20:59:32 <alise> So anyway... I want to write a typesetter. Please talk me out of it.
20:59:32 <Sgeo__> THat Electric Monk thing sounds Pratchett-esque.. or, wait, no, it's what my old religion book claimed about idols
20:59:50 <alise> pikhq: Did you write it? :P
21:00:54 <alise> I had a nerd orgasm at the Prolog reference. :P
21:01:00 <alise> Although, really, the whole book is an extended nerd orgasm.
21:02:43 <alise> Like I said; Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.
21:03:02 <Sgeo__> Oh, should buy that at some point
21:03:49 <alise> Who wants to bet that Knuth will complete TAOCP before he dies? I, in turn, will counter-bet that he won't.
21:04:13 <Deewiant> I think it's rather obvious that he won't
21:04:45 <alise> I think he wants to complete it, and perhaps volume 4 is just his most intensive; I imagine he will be a bit quicker once his death looms.
21:04:56 <alise> I still bet he won't finish it, but I don't rule out the opposite.
21:05:01 <pikhq> Volume 4 is rather intensive.
21:05:02 <alise> Indeed, I hope I'm wrong.
21:05:33 <Deewiant> The first three did come out fairly quickly
21:05:33 <alise> This would be more like insurance: if it turns out Knuth dies before completing TAOCP, I'll be terribly sad; the money will be my payout.
21:05:51 <pikhq> Though volumes 5 through 7 will be on languages.
21:06:01 <Deewiant> So maybe it's possible; I thought they'd taken longer
21:06:22 <alise> Betting against your desired outcome, incidentally, is an awesome method of insurance.
21:07:12 <pikhq> It's been 37 years since volume 3 came out.
21:07:18 <alise> The Knuth Shuffle should be a dance.
21:07:25 <pikhq> Goodness *gracious* Knuth is taking a long time on 4.
21:07:29 <alise> pikhq: Aye, but he's... taking his time with Volume 4. And he sort of took a long break.
21:07:57 <alise> Deewiant: So he's probably writing 5 concurrently, then.
21:08:01 <alise> # Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015).
21:08:02 <alise> * Chapter 9 - Lexical scanning
21:08:02 <alise> * Chapter 10 - Parsing techniques
21:08:03 <alise> Well, that's not much.
21:08:14 <alise> Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015).
21:08:18 <pikhq> alise: Volume 4 is coming out this year.
21:08:22 <pikhq> Or early next year.
21:08:24 <alise> Anyway, volume 4 is the only one divided into subvolumes so far.
21:08:36 <alise> Volume 5 will be a two-chapter affair, like the first three, and so will be quite easy to write in comparison.
21:08:45 <alise> # Volume 6 - Theory of Context-Free Languages, planned.
21:08:50 <alise> I doubt you could write a ginormous volume on that.
21:08:54 <alise> # Volume 7 - Compiler Techniques, planned.
21:08:57 <alise> That'll be a big'un.
21:09:12 <pikhq> Especially given that that's what the book was supposed to be about initially.
21:09:38 <alise> He definitely won't write more than ten volumes; I bet he'll probably stop at around number 8. It's a nice round number in octal, and it lets him write a "tie-it-all-together" volume after seven.
21:10:58 <pikhq> Oh, volume 6 and 7 will apparently only be written if Knuth can still say anything relevant about their subjects.
21:11:26 <pikhq> If he can't, he will finish at volume 5, thereby having covered the core of imperative programming.
21:11:33 <alise> Knuth has a rather personal definition of "relevant", methinks.
21:11:42 <alise> He considers multi-core processors to be irrelevant, after all.
21:13:10 <tombom> i think he'll shove off his mortal coil before he gets round to all these
21:13:24 <alise> tombom: Nah; he can write a volume quickly, just not volume 4.
21:14:13 <pikhq> Fortunately for us, he is still in good health.
21:14:55 <alise> Knuth will come back as the Second Coming of Jesus. Thereupon he will impart unto us the final volumes of The Art of Computer Programming.
21:16:19 <coppro> don't forget he has to update volumes 1-3 with MMIX
21:16:41 <alise> coppro: Does he plan to?
21:18:01 <alise> Deewiant: It's less bizarre, IIRC.
21:19:21 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:04 <pikhq> The MMIX updating is actually being done by volunteers, and is mostly finished.
21:21:14 <pikhq> Deewiant: MMIX is a sane RISC.
21:21:25 <pikhq> MIX is a 40-year-old, crazy CISC.
21:21:43 <pikhq> It's a base 10 architecture.
21:22:00 <alise> The only sane ISC is an OISC!
21:23:20 <alise> We need more one-operand OISCs, other than RSSB.
21:23:36 <alise> pikhq: Wrong, it's a binary-decimal architecture.
21:23:46 <alise> When programmed in binary, each byte has 6 bits (values range from 0 to 63). In decimal, each byte has 2 decimal digits (values range from 0 to 99). Bytes are grouped into words of five bytes plus a sign. Most programs written for MIX will work in either binary or decimal, so long as they do not try to store a value greater than 63 in a single byte.
21:23:46 <alise> A word has the range −1,073,741,823 to 1,073,741,823 (inclusive) in binary mode, and −9,999,999,999 to 9,999,999,999 (inclusive) in decimal mode.
21:23:50 <alise> The sign-and-magnitude representation of integers in the MIX architecture distinguishes between “−0” and “+0.”
21:24:12 <alise> Knuth is bat-shit insane.
21:24:19 <ais523> alise: do you consider MiniMAX single-operand?
21:24:42 <alise> ais523: I'm not sure I even consider MiniMAX a thing.
21:24:51 <alise> But, no: "A MiniMAX program consists of a series of 3-word commands".
21:25:00 <ais523> alise: except that they overlap
21:25:07 <ais523> I haven't yet figured out if the commands have 0, 1, 2, or 3 operands
21:25:19 <alise> Well, I'd rather not think about it.
21:27:46 <alise> ais523: Of course, you yourself prompted a similar question later -- or was it earlier? -- with your proof.
21:27:54 <alise> What is the definition of an operand, really?
21:28:06 <ais523> I'm not convinced there is one, in corner cases
21:28:31 <ais523> even look at Haskell, and you'll be flummoxed as to how many operands many of the functions have
21:29:10 <alise> ais523: First line -- agreed; second line -- what?
21:29:15 <alise> You mean currying?
21:29:18 <alise> What Deewiant said.
21:29:50 <ais523> "exactly one" doesn't really work, because some take zero
21:30:12 <Deewiant> If you want to call those functions instead of constants, fair enough
21:31:03 <alise> ais523: a function is something of type ((->) a b) for some a and b.
21:31:18 <alise> ais523: Integer and other such things do not qualify for the title.
21:31:41 <ais523> yep, so you're saying that all functions (i.e. things not of base type) take one operand, everything else takes 0?
21:32:27 <alise> ais523: I'm saying that everything else doesn't take things at all, so it's a moot point.
21:38:35 <alise> pikhq: Do you have any idea why paracetamol is popular?
21:39:08 <pikhq> alise: The other non-aspirin painkillers only became legal for OTC use recently.
21:39:58 <pikhq> Paracetamol came to be used OTC in the 50s.
21:42:13 <alise> pikhq: Something wrong with aspirin?
21:42:44 <pikhq> alise: Rough on the stomach, can cause Reye's syndrome.
21:43:30 <alise> I can't swallow pills and needed a painkiller yesterday so I had ibuprofen capsule dust in water.
21:43:46 <alise> If I'd breathed with my nose, my mouth warned me, I would taste the most disgusting taste you can taste. I didn't, though.
21:44:27 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes, but that's generally not an issue.
21:44:51 <alise> Hooray for ibuprofen, then.
21:45:05 <pikhq> And naproxen sodium.
21:45:22 <alise> "In the UK, 250 mg tablets of naproxen were approved for OTC sale under the brand name Feminax Ultra in 2008, for the treatment of primary dysmenorrhoea in women aged 15 to 50."
21:45:51 <pikhq> In the US it's approved for general painkiller use and has been since '94.
21:45:52 <alise> pikhq: So, basically, in the UK, no, not hooray for that :P
21:46:48 <alise> pikhq: OTOH, we also class melatonin as a prescription-only medicine, and outlaw cannabis.
21:47:11 <pikhq> I don't think you guys care about safety at *all* with your drugs.
21:47:26 <alise> Or getting stoned.
21:47:30 <pikhq> Not that the US is all that good about it.
21:57:35 <alise> I like magic-as-a-programming-language a bit more than I should probably like it.
21:58:59 <pikhq> alise: What're you reading now?
21:59:08 <alise> Nothing right now.
22:01:09 <pikhq> Inquiry: should I make curry tonight?
22:01:21 <pikhq> Upsides: curry is delicious. Downsides: curry is work.
22:02:51 <alise> How tired are you?
22:02:58 <pikhq> Not exceptionally.
22:03:10 <pikhq> It's currently 16:02.
22:04:38 <alise> When do you plan to curry?
22:04:57 <alise> pikhq: BTW, the original name for the dish is schönfinkel, not curry.
22:05:01 <pikhq> In an hour or two.
22:05:17 <alise> Curry actually originates from Russia, true fact.
22:05:27 <alise> pikhq: Are you feeling particularly motivated?
22:05:40 <pikhq> Not *exceptionally*.
22:05:45 <pikhq> However, curry *is* delicious.
22:13:59 <alise> pikhq: Just ... your situation is so mediocrely balanced that I cannot give any advice.
22:14:02 <alise> Just choose, dammit.
22:14:17 <pikhq> alise: I'm also hungry.
22:14:33 <alise> Do you want to make some fucking curry?
22:14:51 * pikhq covers alise in curry powder
22:15:37 <alise> That ... has disturbing implications given my current "name-gender" and the cursing in my previous line.
22:15:38 -!- calamari has joined.
22:16:57 <alise> I'm still covered in curry powder.
22:19:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:25:10 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:29:12 <alise> "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet.
22:32:26 <Sgeo__> In HS, I took a Java course, meaning I don't need to take one now.
22:32:32 <Sgeo__> However, my teacher was HORRIBLE.
22:32:39 <Sgeo__> And I've heard good things about this teacher
22:32:44 <Sgeo__> So I'm considering taking it anyway
22:33:30 <alise> Seriously, you're considering taking a Java course.
22:33:32 <alise> Why are you so stupid? :|
22:33:35 <Sgeo__> I think I'm almost done with the BCS stuff
22:33:51 <Sgeo__> Meaning the rest of my undergraduate career will be boring stuff :/
22:37:05 <Sgeo__> The only Information Security course is an online course :/
22:38:15 <AnMaster> <alise> "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet. <-- what?! where was that mentioned!?
22:38:24 <alise> http://universityofreddit.com/v2/
22:38:33 <alise> It's a shitty look-let's-pretend-to-teach-people-with-reddit-pots.
22:39:01 <alise> If you know something, you can teach it! So here's a list of people who promise that they're going to attempt to teach it! Honest! Please ignore the empty threads behind the curtain.
22:39:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:39:22 <alise> Multiple people, it seems.
22:39:29 <zzo38> I want to make template files for phpBB Can you please tell me if I have done it correctly? http://sprunge.us/WdYI
22:39:37 <zzo38> The #phpbb and #phpbb-coding channels are not help
22:39:44 <zzo38> I want other people's opinion too
22:39:50 -!- nooga has joined.
22:39:53 <alise> I suggest not using phpBB.
22:40:19 <AnMaster> what other FOSS forum software is there?
22:40:37 <zzo38> alise: I am not using phpBB.
22:40:47 <alise> AnMaster: Hmm... none. Forums are shit.
22:40:50 <zzo38> I just want to write a template for it anyways, as well as for other systems later
22:40:57 <alise> bbPress would be good, if it wasn't shit.
22:41:06 <AnMaster> alise, that is true for almost everything
22:41:09 <alise> Vanilla would be good, if its author wasn't a shitbag.
22:41:34 <AnMaster> [17373.892849] thinkpad_acpi: EC reports that Thermal Table has changed
22:42:18 <zzo38> At the current time I don't care which forums softwares are good or not (I'm not installing any of them). I just want to make template files
22:42:52 <AnMaster> zzo38, how are you going to be able to make template files without testing them...
22:43:19 <zzo38> I don't know, is there some way for a simple program to parse templates with filling in example data?
22:43:34 <zzo38> No PHP codes are included in phpBB templates.
22:43:39 <alise> Not for something so complicated as that, most likely.
22:43:41 <zzo38> It uses its own template codes
22:43:52 <alise> Uh ... I'd just install phpBB under the hypothetical situation in which I'd write a phpBB template; which I wouldn't.
22:44:07 <zzo38> I don't even have a database
22:44:08 <AnMaster> alise, but you are talking to zzo
22:44:24 <alise> zzo38: Write an SQL server with MySQL compatibility.
22:44:34 <alise> AnMaster: He isn't an alien, you know, and he's right in the room.
22:44:47 <zzo38> Is there any remote service that can test phpBB templates?
22:45:00 <zzo38> But I'm not even finished writing it yet
22:45:10 <AnMaster> alise, you mean, the least wrong room
22:45:34 <zzo38> I just want you to tell me if it is correct so far? Please look at the files tell me if it is right so far
22:45:35 <alise> He's right here, in the room.
22:45:44 <alise> zzo38: I know nothing of phpBB, like sane people.
22:46:17 <alise> But kudos for using a shar :P
22:48:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:50:34 <alise> Oh no, I'm reading the SCP wiki.
22:56:19 <AnMaster> alise, try this link http://tinyurl.com/5cd2rl
22:56:30 <AnMaster> alise, it will prevent you from reading the SCP wiki for a while
22:56:53 <AnMaster> out of the ashes and into the fire
22:57:05 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:03:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:12 <AnMaster> olsner, are you going to click the link I linked?
23:06:26 <AnMaster> err, link that I linked? wtf XF
23:07:50 <olsner> AnMaster: no, I've already went to SCP instead
23:08:35 <Sgeo__> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/revised-entry
23:13:11 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:32 <alise> Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors.
23:15:13 <alise> revised-entry is, I am pretty sure, a joke.
23:15:18 <alise> And no, that does fit the style.
23:17:24 <alise> Sgeo__: Novels -- or, more likely, collections of short stories/novellas -- set around the SCP foundation would be awesome.
23:17:29 <alise> Like the incident reports, only more novelly.
23:17:41 <alise> Unfortunately, you'd need to include all the relevant SCP files before the stories, and that'd probably give stuff away.
23:17:46 <Sgeo__> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/foundation-tales
23:18:02 <alise> Or you could publish every single SCP in a volume you're expected to have, but reading it would be an encyclopedic journey.
23:18:03 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO(0,1))
23:18:31 <alise> Sgeo__: They're probably shitty though.
23:18:33 <alise> Fanfiction usually is.
23:18:49 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO (0,1))
23:18:57 <alise> Meanwhile, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-420-j.
23:20:51 <AnMaster> <alise> And no, that does fit the style. <-- yes but it breaks pretty much everything else
23:21:13 <AnMaster> <alise> Like the incident reports, only more novelly. <-- which ones?
23:21:24 <EgoBot> System.Random.randomRIO :: (System.Random.Random a) => (a, a) -> IO a
23:21:28 <alise> AnMaster: Um... there are a few, like the one where Kondraki tries to kill ... that girl.
23:21:35 <EgoBot> (=<<) :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
23:21:36 <alise> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/incident-reports-eye-witness-interviews-and-personal-logs
23:21:44 <AnMaster> alise, oh wait the dates are blocked out
23:21:52 <AnMaster> alise, I guess you could always put it at a later date then
23:22:02 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:22:13 <alise> AnMaster: true, it breaks real-world chronology
23:22:15 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:22:20 <alise> didn't think of that
23:22:34 <alise> AnMaster: alternatively, it was covered up
23:22:41 <alise> no survivors = in that area, not in wales entirely
23:22:58 <AnMaster> alise, nuclear carpet bombing of north america covered up?
23:23:25 <alise> <alise> Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors.
23:23:32 <alise> Some place in Wales == North America
23:23:45 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1)) >>= print
23:23:46 <calamari> CakeProphet: are programs still limited to a single line?
23:23:50 <AnMaster> "Containment Zone X1, formerly North and South America, is to be denied access. Following saturation nuclear bombing on ██/██/████, number of SCP-173 instances has been reduced."
23:23:57 <CakeProphet> calamari: don't think so. I've been importing things.
23:23:58 <alise> AnMaster: Oh. Fair enough then.
23:24:07 <CakeProphet> I wish there was some kind of error output
23:24:27 <alise> Working at the SCP foundation would be cool if you were high up enough and weren't prone to nightmares.
23:24:45 <alise> Myself, even the knowledge that the files were true would give me a mental breakdown.
23:25:16 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print
23:25:36 <CakeProphet> I guess not all Nums are Randoms, essentially.
23:25:49 <alise> CakeProphet: no, it just can't decide which to use
23:26:24 <CakeProphet> !addinterp decisionengine haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print
23:26:25 <EgoBot> Interpreter decisionengine installed.
23:27:02 <CakeProphet> alise: if only it knew that I didn't care which one it used. :P
23:27:32 <CakeProphet> but I guess this is why explicit type signatures are good.
23:28:08 <alise> GHCi often decides for you.
23:29:15 <CakeProphet> I once thought that random numbers in Haskell were a pain in the ass
23:29:27 <CakeProphet> but, it's really the same as any other language. Sort of.
23:29:58 <alise> Haskell can be a pain in the ass... its type theory is so limited!
23:30:12 <CakeProphet> I probably need to practice using Control.Monad and related functions.
23:30:43 <alise> calamari: it'll get killed
23:30:45 <alise> CakeProphet: a forkbomb
23:30:52 <alise> deobfuscating the function name:
23:30:57 <alise> bomb() { bomb | bomb & }; bomb
23:31:02 <alise> can you see how it works?
23:31:33 <calamari> python: src/filesysobj.c:132: filesys_obj_check: Assertion `obj->refcount > 0' failed.
23:31:43 <CakeProphet> I'm not very familiar with using subroutines in bash, but I get | and & and all that.
23:32:29 <alise> "A self-hosted implementation in IRP does not exist because if it did it would be quite annoying."
23:32:33 <CakeProphet> I assume it just sits and never halts as it waits for IO
23:32:34 <alise> CakeProphet: It just defines a command, basically.
23:32:36 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/import: /usr/lib/plash/lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.9' not found (required by /lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0)
23:32:44 <alise> CakeProphet: Er... no.
23:32:50 <alise> bomb() { bomb | bomb & }
23:32:53 <alise> So if we call bomb,
23:33:07 <alise> it spawns two new bombs in the background
23:33:10 <alise> and halts immediately
23:33:13 <alise> both those bombs then
23:33:17 <alise> spawn two new bombs in the background
23:33:19 <alise> and halt immediately
23:33:23 <alise> those 4 bombs then
23:33:25 <alise> spawn two new bombs in the background
23:33:26 <alise> and halt immediately
23:33:36 <alise> in a few seconds, the system is bogged down.
23:34:58 <alise> i think it's bomb | (bomb &)
23:35:04 <alise> as that's the only version that would keep the processes around.
23:36:28 <calamari> !haskell import Control.Monad; import System.Posix.Process; forkBomb = forever $ forkProcess forkBomb
23:37:06 <alise> calamari: it is not so flawed :)
23:38:29 <alise> calamari: EgoBot runs as its own user, in a chroot. Inside this chroot, it runs plash, which is a sandboxing solution for Debian. He uses this to turn off everything dangerous. Then, he sets extreme ulimits.
23:40:01 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin | tr '\n' ' '
23:40:06 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin | xargs echo
23:40:06 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:40:17 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15104: line 1: X11: command not found
23:40:22 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15135: line 1: /usr/bin/X11: is a directory
23:40:26 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15162: line 1: /usr/bin/X: No such file or directory
23:40:29 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:57: Not in scope: `isAlpha'
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:70: Not in scope: `isSpace'
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:151: Not in scope: `isAlpha'
23:40:45 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:164: Not in scope: `isSpace'
23:40:49 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:245: Not in scope: `toLower'
23:40:55 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:40:56 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:40:57 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:40:58 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:41:04 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented
23:41:12 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented
23:41:17 <alise> !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:41:23 <EgoBot> ls (GNU coreutils) 7.4 Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
23:41:25 <alise> !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo
23:41:31 <alise> !sh ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo
23:41:32 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 May 2 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> .
23:41:36 <AnMaster> alise, how can ls -l fail like that
23:41:44 <alise> AnMaster: I dunno, plash disables all sorts
23:42:08 <alise> `run ls -l /usr/bin/X11
23:42:14 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 Jun 19 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> .
23:42:14 <HackEgo> total 564 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jul 3 22:41 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 61187 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.base64 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 45293 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.jpg \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 20 Jul 3 22:41 hack_gregor \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10 Jul 3 22:41 hello.txt \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 166 Jul 3 22:41 help.txt \ -rw-r--r--
23:42:41 <alise> !haskell main@m=putStr"dickbutt ">>m
23:42:51 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: /usr/bin/XOrg: No such file or directory
23:42:55 <alise> you can do (Foo bar)@x or was it x@(Foo bar)
23:43:00 <alise> binds x to (Foo bar) and pattern matches
23:43:06 <AnMaster> `run ls /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo
23:43:08 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 X11 [ a2p addpart addr2line apropos apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-curses aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as awk axi-cache base64 basename bashbug bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bsd-from bsd-write c++
23:43:16 <AnMaster> `run ls -d /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo
23:43:18 <alise> so main@m or m@main whichever it is assigns main and "pattern matches" it as m inside the body
23:45:48 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15940: line 1: tree: command not found
23:46:11 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:46:17 <EgoBot> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
23:46:23 <EgoBot> I am a man from the future
23:46:42 <EgoBot> plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/mount'
23:48:20 <ais523> hmm, presumably mount doesn't work very well if it doesn't run setuid
23:48:37 <calamari> ais523: seems to ave shown me what I wanted to know
23:50:48 <zzo38> Here is something in D&D game http://sprunge.us/gGec OK, your turn
23:51:58 <zzo38> !sh echo <CTCP>PING<CTCP>
23:53:10 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:53:34 <alise> chickenzilla: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
23:53:54 <alise> Hey, I have a commit there. Cool.
23:54:31 <CakeProphet> I should run my MUD server off of HackEgo. :P
23:56:00 <EgoBot> plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/ping'
23:56:42 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.16397: line 1: ifconfig: command not found
23:57:31 <Sgeo__> Why does ping need setuid?
23:58:09 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16621 \ wunderbar_emporium
00:00:02 <ais523> Sgeo__: because you can't send arbitrary ICMP messages without root privs
00:00:11 <ais523> or you could really snarfle up a network
00:00:42 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.16734: line 1: telnet: command not found
00:02:14 <EgoBot> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:04:43 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:05:10 <alise> ais523: I wonder how Plan 9 does ping?
00:07:13 <alise> QEMU GUIs: any recommendations?
00:09:20 <alise> ais523: what's the thing to add a user to a group? addgroup?
00:10:56 <alise> Eh, I'll just edit /etc/passwd.
00:11:21 <calamari> alise: I think you're missing an OS somewhere
00:11:43 <calamari> oh you meant frontends.. never mind :)
00:18:35 <zzo38> The `ls command is broke O NO
00:19:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:19:58 <zzo38> Does it break all the time like that?
00:20:40 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:23:16 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/gGec
00:25:39 <ais523> alise: adduser user group, IIRC
00:25:59 <alise> heh i was trying to do kvm not kqemu >_<
00:26:47 <zzo38> That URL is something for D&D game, do you have any opinion of it?
00:26:52 * Sgeo considers just buying Kindle books from now on
00:27:38 <alise> Sgeo: No, don't support the Kindle.
00:27:51 <Sgeo> alise, any other suggestions?
00:28:12 <zzo38> I just buy proper books, with paper
00:28:18 <alise> Sgeo: Get some other ebook reader? I'm not sure that there /is/ a good ebook store. Piracy would be a reasonable option.
00:28:26 <alise> zzo38: You can't carry a hundred books around with you -- especially textbooks.
00:28:33 <alise> But indeed, I do enjoy paper.
00:28:43 <alise> I'd like to see any ebook reader match the typography achieved by well-set books.
00:29:09 <zzo38> I do carry around a lot of books when necessary
00:29:29 <Sgeo> There's no Kindle edition of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
00:30:16 <alise> Sgeo: Buy the dead tree version. Adams typeset it himself, on a Macintosh Plus II (IIRC)!
00:30:25 <alise> I know he typeset it himself with MacAuthor, that's in the introduction.
00:31:04 <alise> It has one or two blatant spelling errors though.
00:31:09 <alise> ("tjat" for "that", for instance.)
00:31:35 <alise> Hmm, MacAuthor was MacWriter's codename. But it was 1987, so it would be MacWriter. Curious.
00:31:42 <Sgeo> If I didn't pirate it, who would I be supporting?
00:32:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
00:32:39 <alise> Sgeo: Perhaps half a penny to his widow.
00:33:46 <alise> Dunno if he was actually married.
00:36:10 <Sgeo> I think I prefer reading on my N1 to physical books
00:36:22 -!- alise_ has joined.
00:37:15 <alise_> What happened to my internet? Huh.
00:38:35 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:39:48 <Sgeo> It's nice to read HHGG again
00:39:56 <Sgeo> Although this is only the sample
00:40:00 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:40:14 <alise_> Sgeo: I have a long-term-ish plan to produce a wonderful, (La)TeX-set H2G2.
00:40:30 <alise_> Spurred on by Quadrescence's homemade printing press.
00:41:01 <alise_> Sgeo: tl;dr it'll look really pretty and you'll feel happy as you read it.
00:41:37 <alise_> Unfortunately, I have been unable to obtain a good text source.
00:41:47 <alise_> I just need one with the italic Guide text marked and with some way to differentiate opening and closing quotes.
00:42:42 * Sgeo upsets at lack of Dirk Gently on Kindle
00:42:46 <Sgeo> I'm half tempted to pirate
00:42:58 <Sgeo> Especially because there's some thorough source for Aldiko
00:43:16 <Sgeo> The thing is, the pirated stuff seems to be crappily done
00:43:27 <Sgeo> Tried a Pratchett book, didn't see any footnotes
00:43:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:44:09 <alise_> Mm; we really need better contraband books.
00:44:50 <alise_> I can't wait until .so is available.
00:44:56 <alise_> CakeProphet: McCarthy.
00:45:10 <alise_> CakeProphet: I have read little bits about it.
00:45:16 <CakeProphet> it's not very well documented as it's probably just a concept at this point
00:45:32 <alise_> His mind is still sharp, it seems.
00:45:46 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure I fully understand Elephant though
00:46:47 <Sgeo> "End of this sample Kindle book"
00:47:16 -!- coppro has joined.
00:47:34 <CakeProphet> alise_: I like the idea of being able to refer to the past as a means of memory.
00:48:57 <Sgeo> Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is here
00:50:02 <Sgeo> alise_, indiscriminatelyfrom?
00:50:11 <Sgeo> Is that from the original, or a typo in this verison?
00:50:18 <alise_> Sgeo: Typo, I am pretty sure.
00:50:28 <alise_> Sgeo: Fuck it, want me to mail you my paperback?
00:50:50 <Sgeo> I could probably buy it, but I end up losing paperbacks eventually
00:50:53 <CakeProphet> so, if I can fetch arbitrary URLs to egobot
00:51:06 <CakeProphet> there's nothing really stopping me from compiling programming language interpreters/compilers onto it, correct?
00:51:18 <alise_> CakeProphet: indeed. it's easier just to send a revision to Gregor, though
00:51:21 <alise_> also, HackEgo is more suited to that
00:51:31 <alise_> EgoBot doesn't really keep state afaik
00:51:39 <Sgeo> Now that I have Internet access whereever I go, I'm more willing to go to the bookstore
00:52:59 <CakeProphet> I wonder if you could combine functional programming with temporal logic as in Elephant
00:53:46 <Sgeo> Why does The Last Hero have to be one of very few Pratchett books not on Kindle?
00:53:52 <Sgeo> It's one of very few I haven't read
00:53:52 <CakeProphet> The simplest function of the past is the value of some parameter at a given time, say the account balance of a certain person on January 5, 1991. References to the past are rarely this simple.
00:53:56 <CakeProphet> Next we may consider the time of a certain event, say the time when a person was born.
00:53:58 <Sgeo> Erm, Discworld, not Pratchett in general
00:54:00 <CakeProphet> Slightly more complex is the first or last time a certain event occurred or a certain parameter had a certain value, say the most recent time a certain person was overdrawn at his bank.
00:54:04 <CakeProphet> More generally, we may consider the unique time or the first or last time a certain proposition was true.
00:55:36 <CakeProphet> the if-where concept would come in handy for that. if <condition> where <temporal "fetch" operation here>
00:56:38 <CakeProphet> rather than breaking it up into two statements.
00:57:42 <coppro> Sgeo: Because it's 20 centimeters on a side, in larger print, and very illustrated
00:59:55 <alise_> CakeProphet: egobot has a sandbox
00:59:58 <alise_> just not persistance afaik
01:00:05 <Sgeo> Hm, guess I have to buy a print version
01:00:17 <Sgeo> I wanted all my books from now on to be eBooks :/
01:00:18 <alise_> Sgeo: Stop buying Kindle books.
01:00:31 <Sgeo> I haven't bought any yet
01:01:36 <alise_> Because the Kindle is a closed, DRM'd platform with the ability -- and which has happened, with Animal Farm and 1984 -- to yank books remotely from your Kindle device.
01:01:42 <alise_> Ergo, don't support Amazon's Kindle endeavours.
01:03:02 <alise_> Well, that's the issue, isn't it.
01:03:21 <alise_> Wonder what Sony readers recommend.
01:03:36 <alise_> http://ebookstore.sony.com/ Hmm.
01:04:02 <alise_> Sgeo: Any ebook store will work, really, as long as they use some format that your reader supports; if it's the Kindle, then ... options are limited.
01:04:14 <alise_> The Kindle doesn't support ebook files, afaik.
01:04:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, what about the Nook? What system does that use? B&N's, presumably.
01:04:22 <Sgeo> I'm using a Nexus One
01:04:57 <alise_> Nook sucks because it's quite slow, the actual-screen is distracting and laggy, and the you-can-only-lend-one-copy-lol is asshattery disguised as a revolutionary revival of the true nature of books.
01:05:14 <alise_> For a nexus one, anything goes; presumably everything has an appropriate reader. But honestly, reading on that screen is not good for you!
01:05:19 <alise_> And you won't enjoy it.
01:06:31 <Sgeo> I'm finding it comfortable so far
01:06:34 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: when/if I complete an Android game app
01:06:35 <Sgeo> In my limited experience
01:06:43 <alise_> Sgeo: Well, you're wrong.
01:06:44 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, will do :D
01:07:18 <CakeProphet> with 360 degree aiming... if it turns out we can actually animate that.
01:07:19 <Sgeo> I've heard Aquaria was.. Metroidy in some way?
01:07:47 <CakeProphet> like, I'm really not sure I have the programming experience to pull off my ideas
01:07:55 <fizzie> I've read a dozen (or three) books on the N900 (which I guess has a similar screen) so far, but of course that's just me; I tend to read books with a monospace terminal font in less anyway.
01:07:57 <CakeProphet> but if I can... I think it will sell very well.
01:08:58 <fizzie> (The physical page-flippin keys -- officially volume control, or zoom in browser -- are a nice addition, though.)
01:09:14 <CakeProphet> allow me to clarify: as a puzzle element of the game you can fire missiles that stretch-time in the radius around them upon explosion. You would use this to run by turrets as their otherwise unavoidable bullets are slowed.
01:10:36 <CakeProphet> ...don't even ask me if I can program that. But I've found a sweet open source 2d engine for Android
01:12:49 <alise_> CakeProphet: that's a great idea. make it free :|
01:13:46 <CakeProphet> so what I plan on doing is releasing the code open source but copyrighting the artwork.
01:14:00 <CakeProphet> meh. dunno. perhaps ads would be worthwhile as I would get more total downloads
01:14:13 <CakeProphet> at the very least there will be a free version. Every successful Android game has a free version
01:14:29 * Sgeo wonders if that's true of iOS games as well
01:14:35 <Sgeo> If not, that would be fairly.. sad
01:14:57 <alise_> CakeProphet: I suggest offering support for profit. ...Wait.
01:15:09 <alise_> I just have my general objection to copyright, really. :P
01:15:47 <CakeProphet> alise_: me too, but unfortunately I see the practical benefits. Especially being unemployed.
01:15:48 <Sgeo> Unenforcable != should be legal
01:16:08 <Sgeo> ^^trap I've fallen into way too much
01:16:12 <alise_> Sgeo: Nice of you to be so presumptious of your reasons.
01:16:17 <alise_> I have far deeper arguments about copyright.
01:17:56 <CakeProphet> I really don't have very solid reasons for supporting no-copyright, but I can defend against the typical reasons
01:18:53 <CakeProphet> ah, but I lack the time to open this can of worms
01:29:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why should there be unenforcable laws?
01:30:13 <pikhq> All they do is bloat the legal system, after all.
01:31:16 <Sgeo> They encourage more lawful people to follow them
01:31:33 <Sgeo> There are people who care about following the rules
01:31:56 <coppro> and they get run over by the people who don't
01:31:56 <Sgeo> Although, in my case, I have a tendency to care about that, while philisophically disagreeing with such a mentality :/
01:32:25 <ais523> being seen to break the law, even an unenforceable one, sometimes has other drawbacks
01:32:30 <ais523> like people trusting you less from then on
01:32:34 <coppro> ais523: ssh, I'm playing devil's advocate here!
01:32:46 <alise_> I don't think many people have a strong will to follow unenforcable laws that they do not think are right.
01:32:56 <alise_> And they will still do what they think is right in the absence of unenforcable laws.
01:33:13 <alise_> So they are useless except for people like ais523 -- but then he'd be morally perfect even in the absence of laws.
01:33:14 <pikhq> ais523: Only when the law in question is commonly seen as a reasonable moral code.
01:33:33 <coppro> in which case, is a law necessary?
01:33:33 <ais523> or if you're in a rather unusual community for some reason
01:33:35 <pikhq> And the thing is, laws *do not exist to dictate morality*...
01:33:46 <coppro> laws exist to codify it
01:34:05 <pikhq> They exist to keep society running.
01:34:09 <alise_> "Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." --Demonax, Roman philosopher and possessor of the most badass name in history.
01:34:12 <pikhq> Don't give a flying fuck about morality.
01:34:35 <ais523> arguably, laws are useful if only as a prediction of how the police and courts will behave
01:34:36 <alise_> Of course, back then there were a lot fewer book-keeping laws and it was mostly legislation of morality.
01:34:39 <coppro> pikhq: Soo... how about them laws against gay marriage?
01:35:04 <pikhq> coppro: Those cause issues in the functioning of society, by causing unequal treatment of members of it.
01:35:06 <ais523> coppro: the ironic thing is, I don't see how definition of what counts as marriage or not has anything to do with morality
01:35:09 <ais523> it's just a definition
01:35:26 <coppro> ais523: Yeah, but it exists as a reflection of morals
01:35:37 <ais523> law is effect here, rather than cause
01:35:45 <alise_> Marriage is between a man and many women, like it always used to be!
01:35:53 <pikhq> Yup, acting in opposition to the purpose of a legal system.
01:36:23 <pikhq> If laws existed to enforce morality, then surely, surely they'd legislate against more immoral behaviors.
01:37:13 <alise_> Of course, the reductio ad absurdum of enforcing morality is extreme fascism. A slippery slope argument, yes, but one that conservatives have been steadily sliding down for quite a while now.
01:38:03 <pikhq> alise_: Is it really a "slippery slope" argument if people are actually advocating it?
01:38:27 <coppro> pikhq: The problem there is that the distribution of political is unbalanced; the people performing the immoral acts are the ones with all the power
01:38:35 <coppro> s/political/political power/
01:38:46 <alise_> I note that economic immorality goes unpunished.
01:39:07 <pikhq> coppro: Hooray, we have one of the major reasons why legal systems legislate hardly anything based on any reason at all! :P
01:39:08 <alise_> As well as ecological immorality (BP got a slap on the wrist).
01:39:19 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
01:39:26 <ais523> alise_: their stock price plummeted miles, which is more than just a slap on the wrist
01:39:31 <coppro> alise_: It does not go entirely unpunished
01:39:36 <ais523> the markets managed to punish them pretty effectively, even if the government didn't
01:39:41 <coppro> it certainly doesn't get punished appropriately
01:39:43 <alise_> ais523: yeah, but they sell fucking /oil/, they'll be back up soon
01:40:09 <alise_> pikhq: Could you please remove the curry powder from my body?
01:40:11 <coppro> the US is going to be on BP's ass for a lot of money for a long time
01:40:44 <ais523> corruption is a real problem in basically every government in the world
01:41:05 <alise_> pikhq: O-kay, this is way too ambiguous.
01:41:11 <ais523> in the US, it's big enough that it's actually noticeable, which is worrying
01:41:22 <ais523> normally they hide it better in first-world countries
01:41:27 <alise_> ais523: on a scale of 1 to 10, how much does anarchism scare you?
01:41:32 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, but they sell *oil*.
01:41:44 <alise_> ais523: under what definition of anarchism? Somalia?
01:41:55 <alise_> I'm talking about, e.g. anarcho-syndicalism.
01:42:03 <ais523> alise_: a generic one where there's no authority of any kind
01:42:09 <ais523> it would lead to large levels of vigilantism, at least
01:42:12 <Sgeo> Anything that doesn't have a peaceful plan of transition scares me
01:42:14 <pikhq> If BP really wanted to, they could *stop selling oil in the US*.
01:42:19 <ais523> and vigilantes tend to be rather indiscriminate
01:42:26 <pikhq> Thereby causing immediate collapse of giant chunks of infrastructure.
01:42:27 <alise_> ais523: That's a statement that I believe to be unjustified; people have a tendency of vastly oversimplifying anarchism.
01:42:43 <alise_> You can't just say "generic anarchism", the different strains differ *very* much.
01:42:50 <coppro> pikhq: and that would be how the US would get back at BP?
01:42:54 <pikhq> Granted, the supply would eventually be met by other suppliers, but damn would it hurt.
01:42:55 <ais523> alise_: agreed; I was trying to interpret your question
01:42:55 <coppro> oh, I see what you mean
01:43:05 <coppro> there is a third option, though
01:43:08 <ais523> did you hear about the BNP setting up its own private police force in an attempt, they claimed, to reduce crime?
01:43:25 <ais523> it actually made things worse because the real police had to follow them around to stop them doing anything illegal
01:43:26 <coppro> the US can expropriate
01:44:10 <alise_> I'm a bit of an anarcho-syndicalist, which is somewhat of a strange position for a strong cynic.
01:44:47 <alise_> I tend to espouse liberal policies (with a libertarian bent wrt social issues), though, as anarchism is so far removed from current political debate as to be almost irrelevant to bring up.
01:45:45 <alise_> Ah, I do love xkill; the indiscriminate chainsaw of the Linux world.
01:45:46 <ais523> ideally, I think you want the impression of strong authority
01:45:58 <alise_> ais523: Ew, no thanks.
01:46:03 <alise_> I don't want to be living in a dictatorship, even a mock one.
01:46:13 <ais523> alise_: I mean, a benevolent one
01:46:21 <ais523> benevolent dictatorships are unlikely to exist
01:46:33 <pikhq> The issue being that there is no suitable benevolent dictator.
01:46:34 <alise_> "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
01:46:39 <ais523> but if you somehow persuade someone they're in a benevolent dictatorship, with an efficient police force, when there is in fact no government
01:46:41 <pikhq> "Suitable" includes "immortal".
01:46:58 <ais523> that would seem to be optimal, but unfortunately impossible
01:47:12 <alise_> ais523: what about an insane sociopath who just wants to kill people and cares not of the consequences?
01:47:25 <alise_> so he's killed, so what? at least he killed someone first
01:47:29 <ais523> you'd need an actual police force
01:47:35 <alise_> "when there is in fact no government"
01:48:00 <ais523> they'd have to be too terrified of the nonexistent government to become corrupt
01:48:14 <alise_> nonsense; sociopaths have no sense of morals, they simply don't care
01:48:30 <alise_> they can fully believe the government will kill them but if they're insane enough to want to go on a killing spree whatever the consequences, why should they care?
01:48:47 <alise_> anyone know how to use kqemu?
01:48:48 <ais523> alise_: I mean, you have people who actually stop them, even the citizens at large
01:48:57 <alise_> ais523: why? the police force will do it.
01:49:01 <ais523> and you install kqemu, then run qemu with sudo
01:49:27 <ais523> you tend to get a lot of local crime-suppression even in, say, the UK
01:49:42 <alise_> well, in the UK we're all nosy, paranoid fuckers.
01:49:58 <ais523> especially in places which have good reason to fear a crime, like banks and jewelery stores
01:50:21 <alise_> "don returned to Case Institute for his Senior Year. At the graduation ceremonies, they
01:50:21 <alise_> were handing out the diplomas in alphabetical order. But they passed over don when they
01:50:22 <alise_> got to the k’s. (Maybe lowercase k comes after Z). After all of the diplomas were handed
01:50:22 <alise_> out, they asked don to step up on the platform. They said for the first time in the history of
01:50:22 <alise_> Case Institute, they were conferring a Masters Degree on a student that had been pursuing a
01:50:49 <alise_> So, is KVM the new KQEMU?
01:51:07 <alise_> KQEMU, was initially released free of charge but was licensed as a closed-source proprietary product. However, since version 1.3.0pre10[5], released on February 5, 2007, it has been available under the GNU General Public License. QEMU versions starting with 0.12.0 no longer support KQEMU.[6]
01:51:39 <coppro> KQEMU is an accelerator module
01:51:51 <alise_> coppro: no, it's deprecated.
01:51:54 <alise_> Regular QEMU will be fine.
01:52:00 <coppro> It takes some code and executes it directly
01:52:06 <coppro> it will work on any processor
01:52:39 <coppro> KVM, on the other hand, requires a processor capable of doing virtualization directly
01:53:05 <alise_> is KVM a bitch to get working?
01:53:32 <coppro> I haven't tried it on a machine capable
01:54:13 <alise_> I guess QEMU will be fast enough for Plan 9.
01:54:13 <SgeoN1> Alise, when will you read Fine Structure?
01:54:23 <alise_> Sgeo: *alise; and when I'm out of the unit and in another country.
01:55:46 <alise_> Wow, the Plan 9 mouse is slow.
01:58:11 <alise_> ais523: wow, recursive descent was preceeded with the ridiculous "recursive ascent":
01:58:12 <alise_> Ned Irons preceded our invention with a Recursive Ascent technique that starts off by
01:58:12 <alise_> calling the primary routine, which makes the assumption that it should call the expression
01:58:12 <alise_> routine, which makes the assumption that it must be in an assignment statement and calls
01:58:12 <alise_> that routine. Obviously, expressions appear in places other than assignment statements. So
01:58:12 <alise_> his technique makes mistakes. It recovers from the mistakes by leaving tracks that allow it
01:58:13 <alise_> to find its was back to where the erroneous assumption was made. It then makes another
01:58:15 <alise_> guess and starts working its way up the syntax chart again. Ned’s technique is obviously
01:58:17 <alise_> slower, does not exercise as tight control, and gives pretty poor error messages. He imple-
01:58:19 <alise_> mented his parser on a CDC 1604 at he University Of Princeton in 1960. He was working
01:58:21 <alise_> with a group from the University Of Pennsylvania.
01:58:45 <ais523> alise_: that's pretty much just backtracking, isn't it?
01:59:10 <alise_> how does ANYONE think of that before recursive descent?
01:59:14 <ais523> although, I suppose it could have helped to inspire the brilliantly crazy LR(1)
01:59:23 <ais523> which vaguely resembles that, except actually works
01:59:47 <ais523> it's a pity language designers don't use LR(1) so much nowadays, it's all LR(0), LL(1), and the occasional LALR(1)
02:00:04 <ais523> INTERCAL is LR(infinity), btw
02:00:06 <alise_> which one is the most complex of those?
02:00:10 <alise_> LALR is the most complex right?
02:00:16 <ais523> LALR's a special case of LR
02:00:26 <alise_> is LL more general than LR?
02:00:28 <ais523> which isn't quite as good, but uses a fraction of the memory
02:00:35 <ais523> and LR's more general than LL
02:00:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:00:39 <alise_> anything more general than LR?
02:00:46 <ais523> I mention LALR(1) because that's what yacc does
02:00:53 <ais523> and yes, bison supports GLR(1)
02:01:18 <ais523> which is a sort of nondeterministic LR(1)
02:01:25 <ais523> I mean, more nondeterministic than LR(1) normally is
02:01:33 <ais523> and thus is capable of handling /any/ lang
02:01:46 <alise_> oh, so GLR(infinity) isn't more powerful
02:01:57 <ais523> although, GLR(2) would be a lot more efficient than GLR(1) at a lang that was actually LR(2)
02:01:59 <alise_> ais523: it can't handle, say, ZFC, can it?
02:02:07 <ais523> alise_: err, any TC-parseable lang
02:02:07 <alise_> after all, that's a language, technically
02:02:32 <ais523> in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse...
02:02:58 <coppro> `quote <ais523> in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse...
02:03:11 <coppro> `addquote <ais523> in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse...
02:03:20 <alise_> Oh. HackEgo's broken. Sorry.
02:03:31 <ais523> ugh, how did it break?
02:03:49 <alise_> ais523: I have a pet theory that #esoteric is one of the best places to find computer science talent in the world; the only problem is that there's a lot of fluff here too, like me and AnMaster, and the channel is so tiny. :)
02:04:11 <ais523> alise_: I wouldn't be surprised
02:04:18 <ais523> well, it depends on what you're trying to do
02:04:30 <coppro> thanks, eBay: 31 items found <lists 3 items>
02:04:35 <ais523> there's a kind of problem which is simultaneously theoretical computer science, and engineering
02:04:42 <ais523> and it's that sort of problem that #esotericers are good at
02:04:43 <alise_> and that's your problem :P
02:04:50 <ais523> it comes up surprisingly often, but people don't recognise it
02:05:20 <alise_> ais523: outside of academia, otoh, our solutions to those problems are ... well ... not accepted :P
02:05:30 <coppro> alise_: you don't consider me fluff? yay!
02:05:42 <alise_> coppro: indeed not! although i don't know if you do any actual cs
02:05:47 <ais523> alise_: nah, my solutions at least often are accepted
02:05:54 <pikhq> alise_: A lot of computer science talent, but we seem to *all* suffer from project ADD.
02:05:57 <alise_> certainly if anyone wants a /programmer/ they'll find an excellent one here
02:06:03 <ais523> although I normally need a complete rewrite to get them in anything close to language that other people understand
02:06:17 <coppro> I'm starting my CS degree next year
02:06:25 * SgeoN1 wonders what he's considered
02:06:26 <alise_> coppro: congratulations; you'll then know nothing about CS
02:06:35 <ais523> coppro: good thing you're in Canada rather than the UK; otherwise I might end up teaching you
02:06:38 <alise_> unless the CS curriculum has improved significantly since the last time I looked.
02:06:39 <ais523> and that would be really embarassing, probably
02:06:42 <alise_> ais523: good thing? bad thing!
02:06:52 <pikhq> alise_: Not really.
02:06:54 <coppro> alise_: It's at UW, which is known for teaching actual CS
02:07:01 <alise_> ais523: what uni do i need to go to to get taught by you, birmingham?
02:07:07 <alise_> coppro: Even *MIT* have ruined their CS curriculum.
02:07:09 <pikhq> In general, a CS degree is a degree in being able to program.
02:07:19 <ais523> but I'm not actually all that good at teaching
02:07:26 <alise_> pikhq: except you can't handle fizzbuzz or linked lists
02:07:35 <ais523> nearly all the students hate me, except for contradictory reasons
02:07:46 <alise_> ais523: i don't really care, it'd be cool to meet you :P
02:07:57 <alise_> and you could just give me A++++++++++ on everything since clearly i am awesome
02:08:04 <alise_> This scenario is realistic.
02:08:04 <SgeoN1> Hmm. I was considering going to Stony Brook postgraduate so I could get an actual CS degree and education.
02:08:05 <ais523> nah, that would be bias
02:08:09 <ais523> and besides, marks are percentages
02:08:14 <alise_> Sgeo: augur went to stony brook at some point
02:08:21 <ais523> it's bad enough when you're trying to anonymously mark someone whose ID number you have memorised
02:08:23 <alise_> I did one better than 110%.
02:08:38 <coppro> Unless there are some serious issues with my academics, I'm going to try for a double major in pure math too
02:08:51 <pikhq> alise_: Uh... That's like first or second semester...
02:09:09 <alise_> pikhq: You do realise that plenty of people get a Bachelor's degree in CS without actually being able to do one bit of CS?
02:09:22 <SgeoN1> Currently the major I'm in is .. a bit less than pure programming, I'd say
02:09:23 <pikhq> alise_: Somehow, yes.
02:09:31 <alise_> Because (a) people are stupid and (b) a lot of universities suck.
02:09:39 <alise_> So, yeah, a CS degree counts for nothing these days.
02:09:39 <pikhq> The CS programs I've seen at least teach *programming* well.
02:09:39 <ais523> the quality of some of the students worries me, although most of them are very good
02:09:47 <ais523> also, I'm pretty certain that Java does not make a good first language
02:09:54 <ais523> although, it's the one I have to teach anyway
02:09:58 <pikhq> Well, except for that really retarded one that considered C a very hard, optional thing.
02:10:06 <SgeoN1> On the plus side, I'm at the top of every computer class... which says more about the other students, really
02:10:22 <pikhq> Rather than, y'know, essential to *practical* programming these days, regardless of whether or not you use it.
02:10:45 <coppro> SgeoN1: Stop being so self-deprecating, already
02:11:02 <alise_> coppro: Sgeo is simultaneously too self-deprecating and too naive.
02:11:07 <alise_> A difficult combination to achieve.
02:11:11 <ais523> I liked my (electronic engineering) degree; the first languages they taught us were C and asm, simultaneously
02:11:19 <ais523> I suppose electronic engineers rarely work with anything higher-level
02:11:21 <alise_> pikhq: I don't think CS courses should concentrate on practical programming at all.
02:11:26 <alise_> pikhq: Programming, yes; practical, no.
02:11:26 <augur> SgeoN1: whats your interest in stony brook?
02:11:36 <coppro> IIRC the current program at UW is Scheme then into Python or C (student's choice)
02:11:40 <alise_> pikhq: C is probably worth teaching because if you can't understand pointers you lose.
02:11:53 <alise_> coppro: which will you choose, do you think?
02:12:13 <alise_> I'd choose C; with Python there'll be an awful lot of Python-related cruft and rubbish class-ery.
02:12:19 <alise_> It's hard to bullshit C, especially if you start with Scheme.
02:12:20 <SgeoN1> Augur, a decent CS curriculum, rather than "Computer Programming/Information Systems"
02:12:21 <pikhq> alise_: "Practical" in the sense of "if you do any nontrivial programming at all, you will need to understand C."
02:12:33 <ais523> Python will be easier to pick up later, among other things
02:12:39 <alise_> Python is a language to get shit done in, not a language to understand things in.
02:12:48 <alise_> Among the reasons are the fact that Guido doesn't know shit himself :P
02:12:51 <ais523> and learning C helps get rid of a whole bunch of awful misconceptions about how computers work
02:12:59 <alise_> coppro already knows both
02:13:02 <coppro> I don't have very many of those either
02:13:02 <augur> SgeoN1: ahh, yes. i would suggest UMD cause thats where i am but i dont know if they have much hardcore computer science
02:13:03 <alise_> but I think he should pick C, personally
02:13:17 <augur> theres a CS department, ofcourse, but i dont know if theres anything theoretical being done
02:13:25 <SgeoN1> This channel humbles me.
02:13:39 <alise_> SgeoN1: humbled me once too, just find a niche
02:13:44 <ais523> and yes, the whole situation with Python and tail-call optimisation is a really depressing one
02:14:02 <ais523> there are other depressing things about Python, but that's the biggest one
02:14:07 <alise_> my life goal is basically to be a dilettante with some specialist subjects on the side.
02:14:16 <ais523> (meanwhile, Perl has a special operator for TCO, and just for fun, calls it "goto")
02:14:38 <ais523> (it has three goto statements, in fact; but the one that does TCO is the only one that Perl experts actually recommend using)
02:14:39 <coppro> Python's easier, but I will probably learn more in C
02:14:45 <SgeoN1> What niche would I have, besides virtual world stuff?
02:14:49 <coppro> ais523: three of them?
02:15:04 <SgeoN1> Which isn't a particularly relevant niche?
02:15:20 <alise_> ais523: you know VPRI?
02:15:26 <ais523> coppro: label: goto label; my $labelname="label"; goto $labelname; sub tco_infinite_loop { goto &tco_infinite_loop; }
02:15:27 <pikhq> goto, goto &, and goto (with a labeled loop), IIRC.
02:15:28 <alise_> SgeoN1: who knows. play with everything, find something you like
02:15:40 <pikhq> Ah, right, that was it.
02:15:44 <alise_> SgeoN1: stop being so damn nostalgic; stop caring so much about recognition... and do interesting stuff instead.
02:15:45 <ais523> the second form makes the heads of good-practices people explode
02:15:49 <ais523> but doesn't really have any other purpose
02:15:52 <SgeoN1> I think the self depreciation is partially because Alise got to me. And dang it, I need to fix that cap
02:16:31 <alise_> I never meant to make you hate yourself >_<
02:16:35 <coppro> SgeoN1: You're very intelligent, we all just think you're a little quirky because you spend your time on games that were in fashion 20 years ago
02:16:36 <pikhq> ais523: goto & is analogous to using jmp to a function in assembly, I'm pretty sure.
02:17:01 <pikhq> SgeoN1: If you were an idiot we would have ignored you long ago.
02:17:06 <alise_> I think if SgeoN1 gets over the severe case of nostalgia, and gets over the extreme caring about recognition, he could do great things.
02:17:14 <ais523> pikhq: yes, although not implemented the same way
02:17:18 <alise_> ...and replying to that with "15" just proves coppro's point.
02:17:35 <ais523> it basically jumps out of one function and into another without any of the typical prologue/epilogue
02:18:12 <ais523> which is what TCO /is/, if you think about it
02:18:36 <coppro> I've never thought about it any other way
02:18:51 <augur> SgeoN1: whats your particular interest in CS?
02:19:29 <SgeoN1> Partially knowing how things work, partially keeping up with this channel
02:19:30 <ais523> coppro: if you look at it at a higher level (say, the one Scheme works in), it's more like calling a function then deleting the second-top stack frame
02:19:38 <ais523> which is actually how it's implemented in INTERCAL
02:20:05 <ais523> hmm, I was in a car with my supervisor for several hours
02:20:09 <alise_> "A type-safe embedding of x86-64 assembly into Haskell"
02:20:20 <ais523> and we were discussing language features
02:20:38 <ais523> it seems that INTERCAL's NEXT FROM is actually used in a few mainstream mathematical models, although ones I hadn't heard of
02:20:43 <ais523> it /is/ a very neat command
02:20:51 <coppro> which is NEXT FROM again?
02:21:12 <coppro> I haven't intercaled in a while
02:21:35 <ais523> it causes the target line to do a function call to the current line, when it's encountered
02:23:27 <alise_> Wow, Plan 9 is installing slowly.
02:23:42 <alise_> ais523: explicit entry points :)
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02:23:58 <coppro> ais523: okay, this is a sign that I need to read the spec again
02:25:01 <ais523> read the Revamped Manual, or maybe CLC-INTERCAL's spec; NEXT FROM's been in CLC-INTERCAL for ages, but was added to C-INTERCAL only recently
02:25:04 <ais523> so it's not in the older manual
02:25:20 <alise_> ais523: ok, ridiculous idea for a language: we have eax-ish variable @. [<] marks an entry point, @ here will be function argument, [>] marks an exit point, @ is return, e.g. [<] x = @; @ = x + 2 [>]. [<label] specifies that the entry comes from a specific label, like come from; [>label] specifies that we jump to this label to return
02:25:34 <alise_> it's like generalised come from / goto with structure of a sort
02:25:42 <coppro> oh, it's just COME FROM that saves the address
02:25:53 <coppro> boring; that makes it too easy
02:25:58 <ais523> coppro: no, it's NEXT FROM that saves the address, COME FROM doesn't
02:25:59 <coppro> lectures are the proper way to go
02:26:02 <ais523> also, NEXT saves the address
02:26:07 <ais523> GO TO wouldn't, but doesn't exist in INTERCAL
02:26:20 <coppro> ais523: yes, that's what I mean; NEXT FROM is COME FROM except that it does save the address
02:26:56 <ais523> I really like modern INTERCAL's flow structure; easy to grasp how it works and remember it, flexible enough to do all sorts of interesting things, yet unlike other languages
02:27:02 <coppro> SgeoN1: what about it?
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02:27:07 <ais523> if you haven't seen continuation.i, try reading it sometime
02:27:51 <SgeoN1> As far as I know, it's a register, but context implies that there's something special about it.
02:28:20 <ais523> SgeoN1: it's a register that's commonly used to pass arguments in 32-bit x86 ABIs, IIRC
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02:33:45 <alise_> ais523: any thoughts about my [<], [>] idea? it's not that interesting I guess
02:33:48 <alise_> but it does sort of unify stuff
02:34:05 <alise_> [<] and [>] can be read as [<any] and [>any], i.e. "we have a language construct that specifies the label to be used here"
02:34:08 <ais523> alise_: it's sort-of how I think about INTERCAL
02:34:35 <alise_> so that e.g. "foo(?foo_result); [foo_result] result = @" works
02:34:43 <alise_> because the [>] gets reinterpreted as [foo_result], i.e. jump to foo_result
02:34:49 <alise_> but then we can't call functions
02:35:39 <alise_> @ = 42; foo : foo_entry : foo_result; [foo_entry] [foo_result] result = @;
02:36:00 <alise_> where f:a:b means "set up f's [<] points to be [<a], and its [>] points to be [>b]"
02:36:06 <alise_> maybe foo < foo_entry > foo_result is a nicer syntax
02:36:24 <alise_> so it's like... voluntary come from :)
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02:44:08 <alise_> ais523: hmm, I can't see plan 9 ping doing anything special
02:44:13 <alise_> but then the default user has a lot of privileges
02:46:57 <alise_> Why the hell isn't there a type-safe database.
02:48:10 <ais523> alise_: many SQL databases are vaguely type-safe
02:48:17 <ais523> and could probably be made more so without major issues
02:48:18 <alise_> Yeah, but not in the good kind of way.
02:57:32 <alise_> ais523: what power does recursive descent have? i forget
02:57:36 <alise_> it doesn't really have lookahead
02:57:43 <alise_> then it's... R(1), if that even makes sense?
02:58:06 <ais523> which method is recursive descent, again?
02:58:16 <alise_> one element in the syntax tree becomes a procedure
02:58:20 <alise_> x := 'a' y 'b' becomes
02:58:27 <alise_> x() { char('a'); y(); char('b') }
02:58:38 <ais523> it's going to be something(0) in that case
02:58:52 <ais523> but I can't remember exactly how the naming scheme works
02:58:56 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_descent_parser
02:59:09 <alise_> i mean, ofc, i elided the accept stuff
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03:02:12 <alise_> i quite like recursive descent
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03:02:30 <alise_> hmm... i think you can make an LL(infinity) recursive descent
03:02:40 <alise_> if input is an array, just have accepting(symbol, n)
03:02:44 <alise_> where n = 0 produces current symbol
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03:06:45 <alise_> hmm, an a^nb^nc^n parser in C is oddly ugly
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03:10:30 <alise_> #define Ntimes(c) while (*s++ == c) i++; if (i != n) return 0; i = 0
03:10:30 <alise_> if (*s++ != 'a') return 0;
03:10:30 <alise_> while (*s++ == 'a') n++;
03:13:02 <alise_> ais523: ok, insane idea: post-emptive multitasking
03:13:17 <alise_> it runs the two programs, *then* decides the best times to switch
03:14:11 <alise_> presumably, this would somehow take place retroactively
03:14:49 <pikhq> Clearly, a use for TARDIS in Befunge.
03:14:55 <alise_> you could perhaps implement this by somehow "speculating" on how the program is going to run, and deciding based on that; then, if it turns out you chose wrong, try and multitask 'the opposite way' to correct for your errors (i.e. if a process was neglected, give it disproportionate time) -- and update your prediction values accordingly
03:15:29 <pikhq> Time and Relative Dimension in Space, not Time And Relative Dimension In Space.
03:23:41 * Sgeo is getting a C# book for free soonish
03:24:58 <Sgeo> All I have to do is tutor someone and make more money
03:25:28 <coppro> that doesn't count as free
03:27:59 <alise_> One, you can't tutor someone -- nothing personal, it's just that very few people can teach effectively.
03:28:04 <alise_> Two, why the fuck do you want such a book?
03:28:07 <alise_> Three, yeah, that's not free.
03:29:24 <Sgeo> No money is leaving my hands
03:30:03 <alise_> you have a stupid definition of free, then
03:30:15 <Sgeo> If $10/h really does balance out with what my time is worth (I'm bad at knowing how much money is worth) then yes, the book is free
03:30:46 <ais523> you have to be pretty young for an hour's work to only be worth $10, if the work's on someone else's terms rather than yours
03:33:14 <alise_> your time is only worth $10/h if you're retarded
03:33:44 <Sgeo> Does being clueless with money count as "retarded"?
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03:40:59 <coppro> Is it safe to dd into a filter and then into dd for the same file?
03:41:45 <alise_> coppro: I don't think so.
03:41:55 <alise_> The last dd process will start immediately and open the file in write mode, erasing it.
03:42:11 <coppro> does this apply to a device?
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03:44:23 <alise_> coppro: streaming device or block device?
03:44:26 <alise_> dunno the correct terms
03:44:43 <coppro> (the other one is character btw)
03:44:51 <alise_> coppro: i... wouldn't risk it, tbh.
03:44:57 <alise_> try it with a floppy device or something :P
03:45:27 <coppro> I'd have backups, and the whole point would be to prevent idiot support agents from having access to my files while still making it relatively quick for me to undo
03:47:16 <coppro> well, guys fixing my computer
03:50:47 <alise_> why do you have such guys?
03:52:02 <coppro> (the "oops I hit my computer will you fix it pls" kind)
03:53:44 <alise_> coppro: well ... don't hit it
03:59:01 <ais523> hmm, I have to hit this computer occasionally to stop it overheating
03:59:12 <ais523> it took a while to figure out where to hit it to stop the fan getting stuck
03:59:55 <alise_> ais523: when did you wake up?
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04:09:14 <alise_> ais523: omfg, esolang mailing list activity
04:09:58 <ais523> (and am not subscribed)
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04:12:02 <ais523> in B, I just judged that a scam that I myself had tried to take advantage of (better than the original scamster) worked
04:12:06 <ais523> I wonder if people will appeal?
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04:14:06 <alise_> how would $you write an a^nb^nc^n parser in C?
04:14:26 <ais523> does it have to shortcircuit?
04:14:28 <alise_> i.e. f(s) iff s = "a"^n "b"^n "c"^n [anything]
04:14:35 <alise_> ais523: no, just that specification above
04:14:37 <alise_> the only concern is elegance
04:14:40 <ais523> the simplest way would probably be to count as, count bs, count cs, compare
04:14:57 <ais523> and simplest way to count a particular letter is just to read until you get a different letter, then ungetc it
04:15:01 <ais523> ungetc was invented for that purpose
04:15:32 <alise_> for(i=0; *s++ == 'a'; i++);
04:15:32 <alise_> for(j=0; *s++ == 'b'; j++);
04:15:32 <alise_> for(k=0; *s++ == 'c'; k++);
04:15:45 <alise_> this accepts the empty string though with junk after it
04:15:47 <alise_> which isn't really kosher
04:15:50 <alise_> so let's say it has to check end of string
04:16:02 <ais523> just check for \0 after the comparison
04:16:11 <alise_> for(i=0; *s++ == 'a'; i++);
04:16:11 <alise_> for(j=0; *s++ == 'b'; j++);
04:16:11 <alise_> for(k=0; *s++ == 'c'; k++);
04:16:12 <alise_> return !*s && i==j && j==k;
04:16:15 <ais523> as in, return i==j && j==k && !*s
04:17:49 <alise_> More "abstract" version:
04:17:50 <alise_> while(*s++ == "abc"[i]) n[i]++;
04:17:50 <alise_> return !*s && n[0]==n[1] && n[1]==n[2];
04:20:15 <alise_> ais523: ok then, here's something tricker: a parser that parses (a_0)^n (a_1)^(n+1) (a_2)^(n+2) ... (a_i)^(n+i) for a fixed alphabet a of size i, and arbitrary n.
04:21:44 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:21:44 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:21:44 <alise_> if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) return 0;
04:21:52 <alise_> Well, you can't actually do int n[sz].
04:22:02 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:22:03 <alise_> int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i;
04:22:03 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:22:04 <alise_> if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) return 0;
04:22:08 <ais523> perfectly legal in C99
04:22:13 <alise_> ais523: Well, sure, but :P
04:22:18 <ais523> and you forgot to free n
04:22:18 <alise_> Anyway, I /think/ that code is correct.
04:22:32 <ais523> if you want to keep it short, you could use alloca, but that's nonstandard
04:22:40 <ais523> despite normally existing in practice
04:23:31 <alise_> dammit, C needs 'finally' :P
04:24:32 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:24:32 <alise_> int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i, ret=1;
04:24:32 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:24:33 <alise_> if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) ret=0; goto end;
04:24:35 <alise_> end: free(n); return ret && !*s;
04:24:39 <alise_> There. Ugly, sure, but what the hell.
04:24:44 <alise_> Hmm, you could do this in one pass.
04:25:38 <alise_> int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) {
04:25:39 <alise_> int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i;
04:25:39 <alise_> while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++;
04:25:39 <alise_> if(i>0 && n[i]!=n[i-1]+1) { free(n); return 0; }
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04:26:55 <alise_> ais523: the nice thing about recursive descent is that you can include little ultra-powerful parsers like that as part of it
04:26:58 <alise_> as long as they have a recognisable start
04:27:14 <alise_> (i.e., you never get aabc being valid but different from aabbcc)
04:29:05 <pikhq> Gotta love recursive decent.
04:30:20 <pikhq> The kind of parser you end up writing without ever having heard of just because they are that intuitive.
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04:34:01 <alise_> pikhq: no! Recursive ASCENT!
04:34:09 <alise_> It is the most hideously stupid parser ever-- and therefore, our favourite!
04:34:21 <alise_> pikhq: Actually invented BEFORE descent.
04:34:35 <ais523> surely bogoparse is the most hideously stupid parser ever?
04:34:37 <alise_> Not under that name, of course.
04:34:38 <alise_> Ned Irons preceded our invention with a Recursive Ascent technique that starts off by
04:34:38 <alise_> calling the primary routine, which makes the assumption that it should call the expression
04:34:39 <alise_> routine, which makes the assumption that it must be in an assignment statement and calls
04:34:39 <alise_> that routine. Obviously, expressions appear in places other than assignment statements. So
04:34:39 <alise_> his technique makes mistakes. It recovers from the mistakes by leaving tracks that allow it
04:34:40 <alise_> to find its was back to where the erroneous assumption was made. It then makes another
04:34:41 <ais523> generate random parse-trees, see if they're correct
04:34:42 <alise_> guess and starts working its way up the syntax chart again. Ned’s technique is obviously
04:34:44 <alise_> slower, does not exercise as tight control, and gives pretty poor error messages. He imple-
04:34:46 <alise_> mented his parser on a CDC 1604 at he University Of Princeton in 1960. He was working
04:34:48 <alise_> with a group from the University Of Pennsylvania.
04:34:53 <ais523> actually, that's not so different from recursive ascent
04:34:55 <pikhq> But... And... That... And?
04:35:22 <pikhq> That sounds freaking awful.
04:35:34 <alise_> "An expression? I hear those appear in assignments! Let's go with that."
04:35:58 <pikhq> I cannot fathom accidentally reinventing one of those.
04:36:12 <pikhq> I have written parsers and realised after the fact that they were recursive descent.
04:36:33 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL's parser is now so complex that CLC doesn't have a clue what the operator precedence and associativity is
04:36:37 <ais523> or even if it's consistent
04:36:38 <pikhq> Because they just seem freaking natural for anything that's got clean BNF.
04:37:18 <alise_> ais523: once, the CLC parser proved a false statement
04:37:23 <alise_> but nobody noticed, as it seemed like normal output
04:37:40 <ais523> alise_: its output is ICBM bytecode
04:37:55 <ais523> oh, I see, you were making a joke on "consistent"
04:38:00 <ais523> and I did an AnMaster and missed it
04:38:32 <alise_> it would be cool if it actually outputted a proof that the given text must parse to a certain parse tree :)
04:38:34 <pikhq> What does the CLC in CLC-INTERCAL mean?
04:38:43 <ais523> pikhq: it's the initials of the primary author
04:39:12 <coppro> Why can't a predictive recursive descent parser parse an ambiguous grammar?
04:39:16 <alise_> Clever "Lemniscate" Caviar
04:39:24 <ais523> coppro: if it guesses wrong, it doesn't know what to do next
04:39:31 <alise_> coppro: Why can't your MOTHER parse an ambiguous grammer??
04:39:59 <coppro> nm, being an idiot today
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04:40:53 <alise_> pikhq: So, typesettery. I was considering having the 'final stage' before actually putting pixels to paper be, basically, nested lists containing sets.
04:41:03 <alise_> Actually, no nested lists.
04:41:06 <alise_> Just sets at certain points.
04:41:13 <ais523> oh no, this isn't yet another total preorder is it/
04:41:18 <alise_> So, we say that at point (3,4) -- for some abstract coordinate system --
04:41:28 <ais523> those things have come up twice in a month at work, despite being generally unused
04:41:35 <alise_> we have the foop (a (12 pt) bold)
04:41:52 <alise_> so we have nested sets here
04:42:04 <alise_> now, when this is actually rendered, we ask the character set for a character matching these attributes
04:42:16 <alise_> it's a, so it looks up the a character, then it looks for the bold variant, then it renders it at 12pt
04:42:20 <alise_> and that's the pixels returned
04:42:28 <alise_> now, these coordinates can overlap, because of kerning etc.
04:42:32 <alise_> but this is okay, because of transparent backgrounds
04:42:58 <alise_> things like borders would be big box characters around the stuff, i think
04:43:08 <alise_> and images would be e.g. (image 234988eu98234-uniqueid)
04:45:30 <pikhq> coppro: It is awesomeness.
04:48:09 <coppro> it is basically the way parsing was meant to be done
04:48:22 <alise_> or IS it... dun dun DUNNNN
04:48:55 <alise_> PEGs huh, i hear pegs are good, pirates have pegs fuckshitting pegs pirates yeaaah it's almost 5am.
04:48:59 <alise_> FUCKING PIRATESHITTING PEGS!
04:49:06 <coppro> nope, I'm pretty sure that when the gods crafted the Universe, they said "Well, we'll have to include parsing" "Oh, man, that sucks" "Well, we could make sure they get Parsec" "Sounds good"
04:49:07 <alise_> Any parsing expression grammar can be converted directly into a recursive descent parser[citation needed].
04:49:12 <alise_> so they're like quite as awesome
04:49:19 <alise_> twice is basically the same word as quite ithink
04:49:24 <alise_> there's a t there, thjat should be a c
04:49:34 <alise_> and nobody gievs a fuck about q, so we can just replace that with t
04:49:37 <alise_> so we get quite = twice
04:50:39 <alise_> ais523: So, um... when did you last sleep? I set my sleep clock on other people's.
04:50:52 <ais523> alise_: woke up at about 5pm yesterday
04:51:00 <ais523> my sleep clock is not a good one to set to, though
04:51:04 <coppro> I last went to sleep 18 hours ago
04:51:06 <alise_> fuck, i woke up at 10am this morning :)
04:51:14 <coppro> my sleep is not a good one to set to if you're in the UK
04:51:18 <ais523> 10am this morning hasn't happened yet, at least if you're in the UK
04:51:30 * pikhq woke up at 10am as well
04:51:33 <alise_> shut up i'm too tired to think so fuck that shit
04:51:41 <alise_> pikhq: but it's like 7pm there in "MILD COUNTRY "
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04:51:54 <alise_> U S A , land of the mild
04:52:52 <pikhq> Also, mild country?
04:52:55 <alise_> 7 "mild" pm, the "mildest " of hours
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04:53:31 <alise_> mascot thourselfs towaqrds my untodistablishabilityies
04:53:34 <pikhq> Uh. It's 7 in Hawaii-Aleutian time?
04:53:35 * Sgeo arbitrarily decides that alise_ is mild
05:01:37 * pikhq loves polyglot sentences
05:01:50 <ais523> pikhq: polyglot between which langs?
05:02:17 <pikhq> ais523: Japanese, all Sinitic languages, (atypically-written) Korean, (atypically-written) Vietnamese.
05:02:32 <pikhq> Yeah, that's right. An entire language branch.
05:02:33 <ais523> is it particularly meaningful in all of them?
05:03:16 <ais523> that's a sort of pointless polyglot, then
05:03:22 <ais523> sort-of like the null quine
05:03:27 <pikhq> It's easiest with proper nouns, yes.
05:03:52 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if there are any spoken Mandarin/Cantonese polyglots
05:04:21 <ais523> preferably, meaning a different thing in each lang
05:04:33 <pikhq> Oh, different meanings in each? Trivial.
05:04:49 <pikhq> They're both syllable/tonal structured, and there's overlapping syllables and tones.
05:04:53 <alise_> SP[Æ]KING THE Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.
05:05:08 <ais523> perhaps you could make it a question in one lang, and its answer in another
05:05:09 <alise_> WOULD BE THE SPOKING OF THE WORDS ENVISIONED -- INSIDE THIS -- pikhq -- THOU HA'STEST A LINGUISTIC SYSTEM
05:05:12 <alise_> FOR THE TRANSCRIBING OF KANJI
05:05:21 <alise_> APPLY IT TO THIS POE~TRY, LION - EATING POET IN STONE DEN, THE
05:06:00 <pikhq> I can kinda-sorta understand that.
05:06:02 <alise_> IT IS NOT REALLY KANJI BEING CHINESE I GUESS BUT WHO CARES
05:06:17 <pikhq> Really freaking weird-looking, mind, but.
05:06:42 <alise_> IT IS ROMANISED IN "SHI"S
05:06:45 <pikhq> alise_: "Kanji" is more literally translated as "Chinese characters". Or even more literally translated as "Han dynasty characters".
05:06:58 <pikhq> Not all of those characters have Japanese readings.
05:07:49 <pikhq> Oh, wait. The few that don't have reading indicators. I can cheat!
05:09:18 <pikhq> Ishishittsujishishishi, shishi, shishokujyuushi. Shijijitekishikanshi. Shiji, tekijyuushitekishi. Saiji, tekishishitekishi. Shikansaijyuushi, jishitsudou, bensaijyuushishise. Shikaisaijyuushishin, tekiishishitsu.
05:09:25 <pikhq> ... That's about where I'm going to give up.
05:09:37 <alise_> pikhq: Excuse me? That is not entirely "shi".
05:09:42 <alise_> Also, that is not in your romanisation scheme.
05:09:47 <alise_> Yours had xs in, or something.
05:12:34 <pikhq> Isisitus`isisisi, sisi, sisixyoku`ixyuusi. Siz`iz`itekisikannshi. Sis`i, tekis`ixyuusitekisi. Sais`i, tekisisitekisi. Sikansais`ixyuusi, s`isitut`ou, h`ennsais`ixyuusisise. Sikaisais`ixyuusisinn, tekiisisitu.
05:13:35 <pikhq> After that is where I stop being able to give or reasonably guess at readings.
05:14:37 <alise_> 321654165456465465 need to sleep
05:19:58 <Sgeo> How do I tell if I've been a victim of C# poisoning?
05:20:46 <Sgeo> It is a nice language..
05:20:57 <ais523> alise_: C# is a massive improvement over all the other standard Windows application development languages
05:21:00 <ais523> which is why people like it
05:21:30 <alise_> ais523: it's also shit
05:22:05 <Sgeo> C++ is worse, Python is not statically typed, Java is worse
05:22:05 <ais523> alise_: I don't know it well enough to know what bad points it has
05:22:23 <ais523> what's so bad about it? I'm curious, and would like ammo to use against C#-loving types
05:22:48 <Sgeo> C is not really application-level, especially for security-requiring stuff. Too easy to write unsafe code.
05:23:50 <ais523> I think the thing I dislike most about C# is it reminds me a bit of MAGENTA
05:24:07 <ais523> so many different ways to do things, that please different subsets of programmers, not for any particularly good reason
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05:47:53 <CakeProphet> I rather like. It's basically what Java should be.
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05:48:35 <CakeProphet> like... it always pissed me off that methods weren't first-class in Java
05:49:08 <CakeProphet> but in C# there's multicast delegates. It already saves you a shit ton of work when doing something event-driven.
05:49:44 <ais523> CakeProphet: are in Java 1.7
05:49:49 <CakeProphet> all of it's bad points are essentially the same as Java
05:49:50 <ais523> first-class methods, that is
05:50:04 <CakeProphet> ais523: oh really? Hmmm, okay. I assume it works differently from delegates based on your wording.
05:50:22 <ais523> CakeProphet: you use # rather than . when referencing a method
05:50:29 <ais523> and you get what's basically a function pointer
05:50:43 <ais523> ofc you could do it anyway making an anon class, and people did all the time, but that's stupidly wordy
05:50:55 <ais523> and I'd guess it's typesafe at compile time but not run time, the way type erasure normally works
05:51:01 <CakeProphet> ais523: very stpidly. It's cumkbersome when it should be easy.
05:51:33 <Sgeo> Suddenly getting first-class methods won't help when most Java APIs expect classes..
05:52:17 <CakeProphet> delegates are probably my favorite thing about C#. It's the thing that makes it stand out when compared to Java.
05:52:58 <Sgeo> It's possible to go overboard, though
05:53:09 <Sgeo> I recently wrote a function with 3 nested anonymous delegates.
05:53:19 <CakeProphet> fortunately every language design isn't Guido
05:53:31 <CakeProphet> or we'd be trying to prevent everything that allows mistake.
05:53:52 <CakeProphet> I need to pay more attention to what I type. :P
05:55:03 <CakeProphet> I have so many crazy and conflicting language ideas... I don't think I could ever unify them.
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05:55:28 <Sgeo> Crazy and conflicting, like ABCDEF?
05:55:34 * Sgeo sins by abbreviating it
05:55:47 <CakeProphet> right now I'm considering how one would merge concepts from Elephant with functional and OO paradigms.
05:56:07 <CakeProphet> but mostly functional. I'd pick functional over OO I think.
05:56:38 <CakeProphet> so essentially logic programming mixed with functional
05:57:02 <CakeProphet> where you have an implicit history (possibly via monad?) that can be referred to and manipulated via temporal logic.
05:57:25 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
05:58:37 <CakeProphet> some other language ideas I want to develop involve manipulation and definition of syntax... in a sane way. I suppose like Lisp macros but in a more syntatically diverse setting.
05:59:34 <CakeProphet> I sort of envison it like defining a custom parser in Parsec, that interprets the language for the syntax element in question.
06:06:16 <CakeProphet> maybe it's just easier to have macro operators. Combinations of operators.
06:08:22 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: someone should actually run a ABCDEF
06:08:35 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, it was, once
06:08:43 <Sgeo> We just never wrote a spec for the resulting language
06:08:47 <ais523> nobody did the actual compilation into a language
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06:22:14 * pikhq adores the Meiryo font now
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06:34:48 <CakeProphet> I cannot wait for tomorrow night (technically today's night, since it's past midnight now)
06:35:37 <Sgeo_> You know the kid I was talking about as being a co-worker?
06:35:46 <CakeProphet> American Independence Day celebration... with terrible cheap vodka and pot brownies
06:40:19 <CakeProphet> I am wondering what I should mix this vodka with though. It's /bad/... it cannot be drank neat.
06:40:42 <CakeProphet> Perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_on_the_beach_(cocktail)
06:40:57 * Sgeo_ would rather have real sex
06:41:53 <CakeProphet> it'll be like, orange soda and peach-cranberry juice.
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06:50:41 <CakeProphet> I've got $6 US and a $12 handle of vodka. What mixers should I purchase?
06:51:07 <Sgeo_> His computer was taken away, apparently because his parents thought that they needed it more than he does
06:51:26 <CakeProphet> this was for the virtual world thing right?
06:51:56 <Sgeo_> Seriously, taking a computer away from a kid programmer has got to be the most obnoxious..
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06:52:57 <CakeProphet> I didn't realize until recently how many very young people inhabit this channel.
06:53:00 * Sgeo_ is 21. The kid is around 15
07:02:14 <CakeProphet> hmmmm salty dog / greyhound = vodka + grapefruit juice
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07:06:20 <CakeProphet> Yorsh (Russian: ёрш) is a Russian drink consisting simply of beer thoroughly mixed with an ample quantity of vodka.
07:06:54 <CakeProphet> Preparation: mix thoroughly and drink quickly!
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07:52:29 <coppro> a) I have two partitions on my computer doing nothing. I would be more worried if that wasn't what most of the rest of my disk space was also doing
07:52:30 <coppro> b) my backup disk is refusing to be bootable
07:55:30 * Sgeo_ should probably sleep soon
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08:23:46 * ais523 reads Reddit discuss Lotus Notes
08:24:05 <ais523> someone suggested to get a similar effect, you should try compiling Firefox's source with ghc without porting it to Haskell first
08:25:37 <Sgeo_> Similar effect to what?
08:26:35 <ais523> CakeProphet: I have no idea
08:26:43 <ais523> but it must be bad if someone even /suggested/ that analogy
08:27:31 <CakeProphet> but you can just enable -CompileFirefoxSource extension in GHC
08:27:36 <CakeProphet> it's pretty much standard Haskell at this point
08:30:38 <ais523> "Copyright 200X ACM X-XXXXX-XX-X/XX/XX ...$10.00."
08:30:51 <ais523> strangest copyright notice I've ever seen, although admittedly it was on a draft paper
08:35:58 <CakeProphet> ais523: do you know anything about mixed drinks by chance?
08:36:19 <ais523> no; I don't drink alcohol
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09:40:42 * ais523 randomly comes across a compile-time FizzBuzz in C++
09:40:44 <ais523> http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/fizzbuzz.htm
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10:13:26 <coppro> hahah, my backup is working
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10:42:43 <Deewiant> http://nethack.petricek.net/ :-)
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12:32:31 <tulcod> so are there any languages for which it isn't intuitively clear that they're turing-complete?
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12:33:23 <oklopol> no you can always sense it
12:33:57 <tulcod> well, all languages i've seen so far are pretty obvious
12:34:36 <tulcod> all the brainf*ck languages and stuff
12:34:41 <alise> "ACTA has now been declared a trade agreement thereby bypassing the congress."
12:34:41 <tulcod> simply weird syntax for assembly
12:34:48 <alise> tulcod: we have far more shit
12:35:17 <alise> intercal with extensions
12:35:40 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/
12:36:07 <oklopol> all of those except toi are pretty obvious tho, so maybe you should check out toi?!?
12:36:40 <alise> oklopol: point is they're more interesting than bf
12:37:17 <oklopol> well yes but compared to toi... yeah i'll shut up
12:37:27 <alise> tulcod: yes, you can easily make a language tc iff goldbach conjecture
12:37:28 <tulcod> alise: hm, just looking at underload, that's far better than whitespace and all that wikipedian crap :)
12:37:32 <oklopol> so i was at least partially being useful
12:37:44 <oklopol> whitespace is a syntax language, yes
12:37:48 <alise> tulcod: we're the snob part of the esolang guys :P
12:38:13 <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
12:38:32 <alise> all 102% of languages
12:38:43 <oklopol> the 2% that's both is my languages, there's just a few of them but i counted them multiple times because they're awesome.
12:39:03 <oklopol> how did i get this humble i wonder
12:39:23 <alise> tulcod: some of the absolute best languages come from cpressey. classics like befunge but also very abstract, unknown-tc langs
12:39:30 <oklopol> i did like graphica's syntax, but admittedly toi has the worst syntax ever
12:39:42 <alise> tulcod: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chris_Pressey;
12:39:44 <oklopol> i don't know much about cpressey's work outside bf
12:39:57 <alise> oklopol: cpressey didn't do bf he did befunge :P
12:40:20 <alise> tulcod: http://catseye.tc/cpressey/lingography.html his languages
12:40:35 <alise> tulcod: further you go down, much more interesting and CSy they get
12:40:48 <alise> e.g. burro where the set of burro programs is a group
12:41:19 <alise> Okapi is a language I designed for my wife for our sixth anniversary. Its only means of control flow is throwing exceptions, and as if this wasn't enough, there are two restrictions on exceptions that are thrown — they must be divide-by-zero exceptions, and they must be caught in a lexically enclosing block. Nor is there any facility to "retry" after an exception is caught. The language is nonetheless Turing-complete."
12:41:33 <alise> great anniversary present or best anniversary present?
12:41:49 <tulcod> alise: sounds great :D
12:42:22 <alise> RUBE is a classic by him
12:42:34 <oklopol> i'm just wondering what the message of making an error-based language is
12:43:09 <alise> A self-modifying assembly-like language which completely lacks any kind of jump instructions whatsoever.
12:43:16 <alise> Noit o' mnain worb (2000)
12:43:16 <alise> A neat little toy automaton that uses pressure between randomly moving particles to approximate the behaviour of circuits.
12:43:45 <oklopol> you're my new idol, oerjan is out
12:43:58 <alise> A self-modifying language; the language is defined in terms of a meta-circular interpreter, and this meta-circular interpreter provides an operation that redefines operations of the meta-circular interpreter. In fact, this mechanism is required for Emmental to be Turing-complete.
12:44:14 <tulcod> so why are you guys dedicated to this? is there any external interest in all this or is the esolang group just for the lols?
12:44:26 <alise> tulcod: well there are applications in CS
12:44:38 <oklopol> i'm aiming for a career in research in computability
12:44:44 <alise> our ais523 won the wolfram prize by inventing what is basically a deliberately sub-TC esolang tag system
12:45:14 <oklopol> and i wouldn't say many of us are all that dedicated :-P
12:45:17 <alise> tulcod: and his day job requires a lot of esolangy stuff
12:45:29 <alise> most of us just do this for fun and interestingness, though
12:45:34 <tulcod> more esolangy than fortran and basic?
12:45:46 <alise> more esolangy than haskell
12:45:57 <alise> "idealised concurrent algol", mathematical model
12:46:00 <tulcod> so what kinda work would that be? :)
12:46:08 <alise> i dunno exactly, ask him :P
12:46:40 <oklopol> cpressey: yes could you tell us where you get your ideas
12:46:56 <oklopol> why does everything i say look sarcastic
12:47:55 <alise> tulcod: wouter has cool stuff if you can handle his gigantic language list: http://strlen.com/proglang/index.html
12:48:07 <alise> highlight: http://strlen.com/aardappel/index.html
12:48:30 <alise> he also did false but that's basically brainfuck on a stack
12:48:48 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
12:49:09 <alise> lazy k is pretty cool
12:49:14 <alise> tulcod: malbolge too
12:49:23 <alise> took a computer search to find the first hello world
12:49:26 <alise> and was /cryptanalysed/
12:49:47 <alise> sub-tc but only for memory limitations
12:49:48 <oklopol> false is brainfuck on a stack? i'm not sure i agree 100%, but maybe i remember it wrong...
12:50:01 <alise> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FALSE close enough
12:50:04 <oklopol> okay i guess if you interpret it freely enough
12:50:20 <alise> with arithmetic and shit
12:50:24 <alise> so it's less esoteric :P
12:50:45 <alise> tulcod: btw brainfuck's goal was tiny compiler, not extreme abstract interest
12:51:08 <tulcod> i'm not saying the guys who designed it are stupid
12:51:13 <tulcod> but it's not extremely interesting
12:51:59 <alise> finally, if you ever want to see what over-engineering is, compare:
12:52:02 <alise> befunge-93 http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/website_befunge93.html
12:52:08 <alise> funge-98 http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
12:52:11 <oklopol> brainfuck is based on a computational model called P'' whose point was to prove you can be tc without loops
12:52:32 <alise> oklopol: no without goto
12:52:32 <oklopol> i don't actually know for a fact it is based on this, but it's the same thing
12:52:56 <oklopol> (was gonna write with loops, but it's the omission that's important so well yeah asd)
12:53:43 <oklopol> so anyway, that surely was interesting back then.
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13:47:22 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0aEp1oDOI New version of Photoshop CS5 includes hyper-intelligent gnomes that can do anything.
13:48:46 <alise> that + http://vimeo.com/6496886 = gnome child labour
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13:51:24 <alise> http://img.skitch.com/20091005-q5jx8gdg2j11ubrhap4fpfe8mp.jpg
13:51:30 <alise> Raptor, raptor, raptor, screaming man, endless void of space.
13:53:45 <alise> i think they're taking the term "magic wand" a bit too literally
14:00:31 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/ZN3b9.jpg "Oh no, the image is cropped!"
14:00:34 <alise> "It's okay! Just press undo!
14:00:40 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/AqTcE.jpg
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14:09:47 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0aEp1oDOI <<< looks like someone finally made a program that isn't completely retarded
14:10:48 <oklopol> would be interesting to know how special-cased that is for real-life objects
14:12:30 <alise> apparently there's a quite old plugin for gimp that does the same thing quite well
14:12:38 <alise> i imagine it'd have an easier time with abstract shit
14:12:47 <alise> the basic technique appears to be "given a texture, make more of that texture"
14:12:53 <oklopol> what's awesome about http://i.imgur.com/AqTcE.jpg is that it looks really natural, but actually the bottom makes absolutely no sense
14:12:55 <alise> presumably with some tweaks to mirror e.g. the balance of elements in the texture
14:13:06 <alise> oklopol: oh god you're right
14:13:10 <alise> shit, looking at the bottom is so disturbing
14:13:16 <alise> it's like... fractal and... evil
14:13:32 <alise> shit, i'm pretty sure there's plant / zoomed out grass hybrids in there
14:13:48 <tulcod> oklopol: though, admit you need to know it's computerized to see it
14:13:58 <tulcod> it is very convincing otherwise
14:14:06 <oklopol> to me it looks like there's some sort of portal to another forest
14:14:18 <oklopol> tulcod: you need to look at the bottom to see it, yes
14:14:30 <oklopol> as i said, it looks very natural if it's in the corner of the eye
14:14:55 <alise> i think if i looked at that dark patch in the bottom and then to the left i'd notice shit was up
14:15:01 <alise> plants are not furry like that
14:15:08 <alise> please obliterate this feature
14:15:10 <oklopol> but once you look at the bottom, you can tell by some of the pixels that there's a fucking portal to another forest.
14:15:22 <alise> oklopol: hey you're right, that dark spot looks like the trees in another forest
14:15:35 <oklopol> i still think that's incredible
14:15:36 <alise> the plants around it get spatially distorted due to, you know, portal physics
14:15:42 <alise> oklopol: if you went through the portal you'd be huge
14:15:45 <alise> look how tiny the tree is
14:16:17 <alise> portal physics is the very scientific principle whereby portals do crazy shit
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14:17:06 <oklopol> yes; anyway i seriously want to hear how these algorithms work, but i presume i'd have to join the team
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14:17:22 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer
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14:17:28 <alise> phd thesis detailing the algorithm
14:17:33 <alise> (that creepy forest was done with resynthesiser)
14:17:42 <alise> (I have a hunch photoshop would produce something slightly less creepy)
14:17:50 <alise> same algo basically
14:17:50 <oklopol> well judging by the youtube vid
14:17:57 <alise> gives almost identical results for most of the pics
14:18:00 <oklopol> how do you know it's the same algo
14:18:00 <alise> i guess forests are just pathological :P
14:18:08 <alise> oklopol: cuz the results are almost identical basically
14:18:12 <alise> also the internet says it's the same
14:18:19 <alise> and it has like the same tools
14:18:39 <alise> anyway just read the thesis, that's the creepy forest algo, the important portal one
14:18:44 <oklopol> results are almost identical, what are you basing this on?
14:18:54 <oklopol> looking at those examples, or more
14:18:57 <alise> people who did the panorama and desert thing, want me to find links?
14:19:54 <alise> i will anyway because i'm awesome.
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14:20:11 <alise> oklopol: you've seen http://vimeo.com/6496886 right? and the image resizing seam carving stuff?
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14:20:27 <alise> how about synthesising a picture, removing some trees, then seam carving it
14:20:39 <alise> thought-out photography is so last century
14:20:53 <alise> "I'll bet it can uncrop a stock chart and predict the markets!"
14:21:16 <alise> someone linked to http://graphics.cs.cmu.edu/people/efros/research/NPS/efros-iccv99.pdf
14:21:20 <alise> "This is completely real. In fact, the technology has been in development since 1999. (pdf warning)"
14:21:38 <alise> oklopol: using an obviously lower-quality screenshot of the panorama from the video:
14:21:42 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/0yKBG.jpg
14:21:42 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/e25kG.jpg
14:21:49 <oklopol> i guess the problem is, like you said, that forests are a bit pathological, because you have small plants near, and big trees far, so they look roughly the same; so plants happen to get interpreted as trees, because the algo doesn't think in 3d
14:21:59 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/4A4ral.jpg
14:21:59 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/fEbazl.jpg
14:22:03 <alise> admittedly that example isn't so hard
14:22:10 <alise> and the grass is a bit dodgy around the removed area
14:22:35 <alise> oklopol: it's just that seeing furry grass-tree-plants makes me get scared that all matter is suddenly going to go slightly furry at the edges
14:22:42 <alise> that's how my brain responds to the visual information
14:22:47 <alise> "oh GOD fuzz apocalypse imminent"
14:23:06 <alise> used to wonder what would happen if reality's texture system broke and i got mapped on to a couch
14:23:24 <alise> got pretty scared about it
14:25:30 <oklopol> give me an even number between 50 and 100 that doesn't repeat a digit
14:26:54 <alise> oklopol: not falling for that
14:26:55 <oklopol> holy fuck at the sketch thing
14:27:03 <alise> i saw it in the logs :p
14:27:12 <alise> apparently everyone picks 68
14:27:27 <alise> someone linked to a shitty mind control blog mentioning it, after it worked on... maybe you
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14:27:45 <oklopol> oh hmm, maybe i got the link from here then, i thought i was googling for something else
14:27:52 <oklopol> and no i doubt i would've chosen 68
14:27:53 <alise> 11:58:16 <ghostwriter42> quick i need a someone to pick a *even* number between 50 and 100 that has two different digits!
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:04 <Sgeo_> 68
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:29 <ghostwriter42> interesting
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:35 <ghostwriter42> thank you
14:27:53 <alise> 12:00:40 <Sgeo_> hm?
14:27:54 <alise> 12:00:41 --- part: ghostwriter42 left #esoteric
14:27:56 <alise> 12:00:47 --- join: ghostwriter42 (~ghostwrit@unaffiliated/ghostwriter42) joined #esoteric
14:27:58 <alise> 12:00:59 <Sgeo_> Is 68 a common response or something?
14:28:00 <alise> 12:01:29 <ghostwriter42> http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number"
14:28:02 <alise> 12:02:17 <Sgeo_> ...
14:28:03 <oklopol> but 1/2 of my test subjects have said 68
14:28:04 <alise> 12:02:27 <ghostwriter42> i guess you win
14:28:06 <alise> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.01
14:28:08 <alise> oklopol: yeah i guess you wouldn't, but you aren't human
14:28:46 <oklopol> we have one constraint on the pair that's completely symmetric in some sense, and a constraint on the latter digit
14:28:51 <oklopol> so obviously i would choose the latter one first
14:29:02 <oklopol> i might take an easy one like 2
14:29:08 <oklopol> then i could choose any number for the first one
14:29:27 <oklopol> 68 is the first possible choice ofc, realizing that i don't think it's all that interesting
14:30:22 <oklopol> "<alise> wonder why 68" <<< ^
14:31:09 <alise> wait, that isn't a suit is it
14:31:27 <alise> doesn't work when your target knows what you're doing
14:31:45 <oklopol> i'm doing a very partial disproof of these things working.
14:31:58 <alise> wtf, that thesis is 60 megabytes
14:32:01 <oklopol> HELLO I'M GOING TO TRY TO TRICK YOU INTO SAYING WHAT PEOPLE USUALLY SAY
14:32:05 <alise> was wondering why net was so slow
14:33:02 <alise> 04:07:19 <ais523> heh, just saw a bogus proof on Slashdot that the last digit of pi was 5
14:35:01 <oklopol> tried to search for more of these because i'd like to try one on myself
14:35:11 <oklopol> and the link for http://www.indianchild.com/number_trick.htm gives the answer away on google
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14:35:36 <alise> you can't hypnotise yourself dude
14:36:01 <alise> "While not absolutely everybody picks "3", most people do." <-- oh i thought it meant pick an /arbitrary/ number, i picked 72
14:36:04 <alise> oklopol: i was joking.
14:36:11 <alise> interesting fact, these tricks aren't hypnosis
14:36:21 <alise> i guess i should have picked a real
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14:36:28 <alise> but i think they probably meant natural even if they meant arbitrary
14:37:01 <oklopol> you thought 1 2 3 4 was like a countdown to seeing how controllable you are
14:37:16 <alise> i thought it was gonna be like
14:37:18 <alise> "did you pick FIVE???"
14:37:43 <alise> then when i scrolled down I was like "what how does 1, 2, 3, 4 make people think the next entry should be '3'"
14:38:48 <oklopol> WELL ACTUALLY I HERD THERES A POLYNOMIAL THAT IS THE SEQUENCE 1 2 3 4 3
14:39:04 <alise> that's asstonishing
14:39:17 <alise> i'm just tonishing my ass
14:39:22 <oklopol> you just lagrance it up you'd understand if you knew maths
14:39:37 <oklopol> but i guess you don't..................
14:40:03 <oklopol> hey did you read about my fart language btw
14:40:07 <oklopol> did you think it was awesome
14:40:22 <oklopol> well it's a bf derivative but even funnier
14:40:36 <alise> ooh is it wav files
14:40:41 <alise> it detects fart noises
14:40:47 <alise> and uses the duration and pitch to pick a command?
14:40:55 <alise> if so congratulations you are a genius
14:40:56 <oklopol> well i thought of that but fizzie refused to do the sound stuff for me :(
14:41:12 <oklopol> but input is still in farts
14:41:39 <oklopol> i removed nestor loops because they are too complecited for me...
14:41:51 <alise> oklopol: i don't think you need loops if you just have if
14:41:58 <alise> i mean you can just repaet the code multiple times instead of looping
14:42:01 <alise> so really you just need if
14:42:10 <alise> or 2d movement, that is also tc
14:42:18 <oklopol> well yes i also changed the for ... until loops of bf into just ifs but i think it's the same thing really
14:42:20 <alise> but really tc is irrelevant since we only have finite memory in the universe
14:42:36 <alise> so don't listen to the zealots who say "ohh you need tc"
14:42:43 <alise> its just a purist masturbating thing
14:42:50 <oklopol> i don't really understand tc
14:43:03 <alise> i don't i think it doesn't really mean much in the real world
14:43:06 <oklopol> if it like when you can use printers and usb drives and so on
14:43:18 <alise> does your language run or replace windows ??
14:43:23 <alise> i know windows is a language you can type things like "dir" into it
14:43:33 <alise> and "format c:" which formats your files to look better
14:43:37 <alise> that's what i heard on the internet
14:43:57 <alise> i think you should make a 3.75d version of your language
14:44:03 <alise> like my favourite game
14:44:18 <alise> i dunno what isometric means
14:44:21 <alise> i think it means illegal
14:44:32 <alise> the the the the the the of the
14:44:39 <oklopol> well an isometry is a distance-preserving bijection between two metric spaces
14:44:53 <alise> so what is a language?
14:45:58 <oklopol> i wish i was like this all the time, but made really awesome languages
14:46:14 <oklopol> and then they'd always have some really stupid design flaws and retarded names for things
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14:46:27 <alise> "what's that? my language is a turing-complete field? what's that"
14:46:31 <oklopol> but the ideas behind them would be awesome
14:46:41 <alise> "i just made a bf derivative..."
14:47:42 <alise> why does my computer suck so much this user interface was designed by a moron or something
14:47:44 <alise> like all user interfaces
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14:48:22 <oklopol> "maybe its a filed but the POIT of the langauge is that the loopes are realy hard to write because you have to repeat every charater 40 times in soruce code :D"
14:48:43 <oklopol> the typos would be essential
14:48:53 <oklopol> and everything he'd say would be totally retarded
14:49:24 <alise> so basically asiekierka with a genius mathematician in his subconscious
14:49:52 <Sgeo_> I figured out how all those "fill in data that isn't there for pictures" stuff in shows works!
14:50:11 <alise> well we can instinctively do pretty awesome stuff ... like do differential calculus so fast we can catch a flying ball ... stole that from Dirk Gently
14:50:43 <Sgeo_> Basically, in secret, there are surveillance cameras everywhere, constantly taking very high resolution pictures. However, the secret network won't give up those picutures without proof that you had most of the data anyway.
14:50:45 <oklopol> i heard something about some psychology people saying people do diff calc when they catch balls
14:50:59 <oklopol> and i thought damn they're retarded
14:51:03 <alise> oklopol: also douglas adams, therefore it is true
14:51:08 <alise> a character in a douglas adams novel
14:51:14 <alise> admittedly they can be pretty stupid
14:52:05 * Sgeo_ ignores the succeeding conversation to best avoid spoilers
14:52:51 <alise> oklopol: Svald Cjelli a.k.a. Dirk Gently, of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
14:52:54 <oklopol> usually if i hear a spoiler, i completely forget about it once i start reading/watching said object
14:53:14 <alise> a bloody good book
14:53:19 <alise> also it references prolog which is pretty neat i guess
14:53:36 <oklopol> but apparently there was something like that in a psychology book my friend had to read for schools. a uni course that is
14:53:50 <alise> oklopol: tl;dr dirk gently scams old people with missing cats using bullshit quantum physics
14:53:51 <oklopol> the psychology dep seems really retarded btw
14:54:13 <alise> oklopol: gura vg gheaf bhg gvzr vf shpxrq hc, naq n znpuvar perngrq fcrpvsvpnyyl gb oryvrir guvatf fb lbh qba'g unir gb sebz nabgure havirefr xvyyf n thl
14:54:16 <alise> Sgeo_: do NOT unrot13 that
14:59:51 <alise> oklopol: anyway it's a good book, even more nerdyish plotpoints than h2g2 and a fun plot
15:00:31 <alise> * Save. Every edit is saved immediately. Changes to the file by other programs are loaded automatically.
15:00:34 <alise> well that's an interesting feature :P
15:00:44 <alise> i guess if you use version control religiously
15:00:53 <alise> would be cool if every change was saved and ctrl+s just did a vcs commit
15:01:58 <alise> " * A jump-to-line dialog box.
15:01:58 <alise> * A find dialog box.
15:01:58 <alise> * In fact, does not have any dialog boxes."
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15:06:29 <Sgeo_> Grr, another app available everywhere except Android
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15:31:04 <alise> so, ridiculous idea
15:31:13 <alise> audio compression using lagrange interpolation!
15:31:28 <alise> we cut out every N samples, and use lagrange interolation to fix it
15:42:58 <alise> dammit, now i have an urge to write an editor
15:43:42 <alise> sometimes this happens.
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16:00:10 * alise behaves like he has a 200dpi screen
16:01:19 <alise> this is confusing :D
16:05:45 <oerjan> <oklopol> you're my new idol, oerjan is out <-- WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
16:07:28 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:07:36 <oklopol> hey might be temporary, so you should be at your best behavior
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16:13:32 <alise> no hinting is weird
16:16:38 <pikhq> A well-hinted Japanese font is an awesome thing.
16:17:02 <alise> Bah. I spit at hinting. Why don't we have 300 ppi screens?
16:17:16 <alise> Then we wouldn't /need/ hinting.
16:17:21 <alise> 600 ppi? Then we wouldn't need /antialiasing/.
16:17:44 <alise> The iPhone 4 is 326 ppi, so, you know, just make that bigger.
16:18:55 <alise> error: failed retrieving file 'ffmpeg-23792-1-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz' from www.mirrorservice.org : Not Found
16:19:20 <alise> pikhq: So, I am writing an editor! Call me crazy. Please.
16:20:28 <pikhq> You're fucking nuts.
16:23:54 <alise> ff there are sequels to A Glorious Dawn
16:24:04 <alise> my day has been made
16:26:09 <alise> ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkWindow)
16:26:09 <alise> ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkInvisible)
16:26:09 <alise> ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkObject)
16:27:59 <alise> pikhq: I just want to make something I can use instead of Emacs until I reinvent everything :P
16:28:16 <alise> I use maybe 5% of Emacs' editing features so I wade through a lot of boilerplate in using it.
16:28:33 <alise> Plus I've now become enamoured with the idea that all changes are saved immediately, and Ctrl-S does a *VCS commit*.
16:31:24 <olsner> no need to make another editor
16:31:33 <alise> olsner: My editing style is nothing like vi's.
16:31:44 <alise> There /are/ differences between people's editing styles.
16:31:57 <alise> Some people are emacsers, some people are viers, some people are acmers, some people are samers, some people are geditors.
16:32:01 <alise> I'm an alise-editorer.
16:32:13 <olsner> using vi kind of requires that you forget everything you think you know about editing and relearn the vi way
16:32:27 <alise> yes, and that way really doesn't sit well with the way i /think/ about code
16:32:59 <olsner> maybe, or perhaps you just don't think like that because you're not using an editor like that
16:33:18 <alise> I used vim for a while. Went through vimtutor and all, sawed off my cursor keys (not really).
16:33:31 <alise> I'm happy with the way I think about code and edit it. Is there something wrong with a person who doesn't use vim? :)
16:33:55 <olsner> of course there is, not using vim for starters
16:34:05 <alise> i am no longer listening to you :-)
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16:35:03 <alise> olsner: Considering the idea of "cursor key acceleration (a la mouse acceleration)" seriously just popped into my head, pretty sure I'm /not/ a vi user.
16:35:35 <oerjan> well you _could_ accelerate all key repeats...
16:35:53 <alise> perhaps, i don't repeat many keys often though
16:35:54 <alise> other than cursors
16:36:09 <alise> and it would exasperate the problem of accidental repeats
16:36:24 <alise> oerjan: i mean far more extreme accel though
16:36:34 <oerjan> nah, just accelerate backspace too >:D
16:36:35 <olsner> my basic point is: how happy you are now says nothing about how happy you *could* be after taking time to be proficient in another way of working
16:36:56 <alise> like it starts out moving one line per N, then in 1/4 seconds is moving up 3 lines per N, then in 1/2 seconds is moving up 5 lines per N, after 1 second 8 lines per N
16:37:05 <alise> oh, also backspace, yeah
16:37:11 <alise> but with characters
16:37:31 <alise> olsner: I have tried a great, great many editors.
16:37:32 <oerjan> i think your fibonacci is missing a term
16:37:39 <alise> olsner: I jived more with acme than I did with vim.
16:37:48 <alise> oerjan: wasn't going for fibonacci, but cooool :D
16:38:01 <alise> fibonacci as natural acceleration
16:38:38 * alise tries to remember what (Delta fib(n)) simplifies to
16:39:20 <alise> no, Delta fib(n) = fib(n+1) - fib(n)
16:40:14 <alise> well it's (fib(n) + fib(n-1)) + (fib(n-1) + fib(n-2))
16:40:33 <alise> wolfram alpha says it's fib(n) - fib(n-2), but that's obvious
16:40:59 <alise> lemme take this step by step
16:41:00 <oerjan> fib(n+1) - fib(n) = fib(n-1)
16:41:05 <alise> fib(n) + 2fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)
16:41:36 <alise> fib(n-1) + fib(n-2) + 2(fib(n-2) + fib(n-3)) + fib(n-3) + fib(n-4)
16:41:41 <alise> oerjan: yeah but wolfram alpha isn't correlating that
16:41:44 <alise> so i'm really confused
16:42:00 <alise> fib(n-1) + 3fib(n-2) + 3fib(n-3) + fib(n-4)
16:42:14 <oerjan> you substitute _just_ the fib(n+1) into the recursion. sheesh.
16:42:46 <alise> fib(n+1) - fib(n) = fib(n) + fib(n-1) - fib(n-1) - fib(n-2)
16:42:50 <alise> = fib(n) - fib(n-2)
16:43:00 <alise> fib(n) = fib(n+1) + fib(n-2)
16:43:06 <alise> ergo fib(n) - fib(n-2) = fib(n+1) which is obvious but
16:43:08 <alise> why didn't W|A get that?
16:44:17 <alise> oerjan: ok so we have that fibonacci grows according to fibonacci
16:44:25 <alise> which would seem to give a nice acceleration ... property
16:44:46 <alise> so wait, the finite integral of fib(n) is fib(n+1), that's cool.
16:46:35 <alise> 0/1 1/16 1/8 1/4 1/2 1/1 2/1 4/1 8/1
16:46:35 <alise> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34
16:46:39 <alise> that's actually an awesome acceleration pattern
16:47:51 <alise> assuming that we start with 1, ofc
16:47:55 <alise> 0 lines per interval would be useless
16:48:49 <oerjan> alise: fib(n) = fib(n+1) + fib(n-2) surely you want n-1 not n+1
16:49:38 <alise> Delta^n fib(m) = fib(m-n)
16:49:44 <alise> ...undelta^n fib(m) = fib(m+n)
16:50:12 <alise> dunno about you but that seems like a pretty cool acceleratory property to me
16:52:24 <alise> oerjan: has anyone used fibonacci as a nice acceleration sequence in this way before, do you know?
16:53:34 <alise> i just sucked an icecube and it popped
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16:58:44 <alise> oh, awesome, yaedit has a prefix option
17:02:39 <Deewiant> Doesn't have: - An option to set the bloody tab size and screw up your indenting. Tabs are 8 spaces, get over it.
17:05:09 <alise> Deewiant: yeah it's a silly opinion but even ais523 holds it religiously
17:05:25 <alise> (that 1 tab = indent until mod 8 = 0, or in today's world, indent 8 spaces)
17:05:31 <Deewiant> I'm also slightly amused by "- Menus or ugly icons that take up precious screen real-estate."
17:05:37 <Deewiant> When coupled with the screenshot
17:05:45 <alise> he has, like, the tiniest screen
17:05:53 <alise> otoh i have tried it out and with a more reasonable screen size it's alright
17:05:57 <alise> since the left hand side is... the only UI :P
17:06:09 <alise> of course it still /sucks/ incorrigibly, why do you think i'm writing an editor?
17:06:25 <alise> max undo levels? why do I want max undo levels? is your computer going to run out of memory or something?
17:06:31 <Deewiant> It's just that he complains about screen real-estate and then has an UI that takes up around 30-40% of his screen :-P
17:06:48 <alise> I ... don't think he has a 454x360 screen.
17:07:05 <Deewiant> Whatever, you know what I meant
17:07:33 * alise does pygtk babysteps
17:07:36 <alise> this is easy actually!
17:08:05 <alise> i have a feeling save-everything-then-Ctrl+S-does-VCS-commit might be a pain if you're setting other programs on the file, but eh, just disable it if you do that
17:14:55 <alise> if anyone's wondering the best code window size at whatever 10pt at 85ppi is, is 640x432
17:14:58 <alise> (just the code, nothing else)
17:15:37 <alise> it can display... 31.9 lines, or something, should probably round that up, and 88 columns for some reason
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17:25:02 <alise> wow, gtksourceview themes suck.
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17:26:33 <alise> ok, now i'll do file loading ... then the actual hard part
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17:31:27 <alise> "The operations between the begin_user_action() and end_user_action() methods can then be grouped when creating an undo stack."
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17:34:33 <alise> anyone have gtk experience?
17:36:05 <alise> pikhq: don't do what
17:36:10 <alise> don't make the most AWESOME editor ever?
17:36:29 <pikhq> alise: Don't do GTK.
17:36:38 <pikhq> It's an abomination.
17:36:41 <alise> pikhq: why not, it's so eaaaaaaaaaaaasy to use in python
17:37:19 <alise> pikhq: i'm using it tastefully
17:38:08 <alise> pikhq: suggest something better
17:39:38 <pikhq> Wxwidgets? FLTK? A hole in the head?
17:40:40 <alise> pikhq: Ever tried to use wxWidgets? Ever looked at a wxWidgets interface?
17:41:00 <alise> FLTK? Well, sure, point me to the ready-made source widget :-)
17:41:14 <alise> Qt is hideously complex to get going and the signals/slots stuff is just living pain if you're trying to get something simple done.
17:41:17 <Deewiant> http://pyfltk.sourceforge.net/
17:41:22 <alise> pikhq: Really, what's wrong with GTK if it's used simply?
17:41:29 <alise> Deewiant: Is that a ready-made source widget?
17:41:36 <alise> Also, I forgot to mention that FLTK is ugly as hell.
17:41:39 <pikhq> alise: Look at Gobjects. Deeply.
17:41:44 <alise> pikhq: Yes. Yes I have.
17:41:51 <alise> pikhq: You are already running a GTK program right now.
17:41:55 <alise> You already have GObjects on your system.
17:42:00 <alise> And it won't even be interfaced into an actual object system.
17:42:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye).
17:42:10 <alise> I, on the other hand, will be using GObject interfaced to Python's object system; the two blend rather well.
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17:43:04 <pikhq> alise: Yes, I use Conkeror.
17:43:14 <pikhq> This is the *only program* I have with GObjects.
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17:43:57 <alise> pikhq: And do GObjects personally affect you while using it?
17:44:06 <pikhq> ... Oh wait. Mlterm. Darnit.
17:44:09 <alise> Probably not. And they won't personally affect me while writing it, as I'll see them all as Python objects.
17:44:10 <pikhq> alise: Not at all.
17:44:17 <alise> In conclusion, the only thing GObjects damage is our sanity when we look at them, which we're not doing.
17:44:25 <alise> Therefore, I will continue to use GTK as it's the easiest thing for this :P
17:44:32 <pikhq> However, the source code is enough to make me want to murder RMS.
17:45:41 <pikhq> Gregor: ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libgcc/config/libbid/bid_decimal_globals.c:47:18: fatal error: fenv.h: No such file or directory
17:45:52 <pikhq> Gregor: This error. How did you make it go away in Microcosm?
17:46:07 * pikhq is trying to build an i386-pc-linux-newlib GCC
17:52:01 <alise> okay so what ui element should i add first ... hmm
17:52:27 <alise> oh, i should make it indent properly first
17:52:51 <alise> gtksourceview takes view a bit literally it seems, and doesn't do intelligent autoindentation
17:53:17 <pikhq> Also, why oh why is it using xgcc for a *cross compiler*?
17:55:04 <pikhq> Apparently "make all-gcc" is how you tell it to just make the compiler. XD
17:57:18 <alise> Make every GCC, EVER.
17:57:24 <alise> All versions, all platforms, all settings.
17:57:43 <alise> Themselves compiled with every GCC, EVER.
17:58:44 <alise> pikhq: Why isn't there a library that just works out autoindentation?
18:02:47 <alise> pikhq: Furthermore, should I write one?
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18:10:57 <pikhq> WHY IS NEWLIB FAILING SO HARD AT CROSS COMPILATION
18:11:50 <pikhq> It is, no joke, trying to build x86_64 assembly for an i386 libc.
18:12:05 <alise> pikhq: i suggest you write an indentation library
18:13:05 * pikhq tries with linux32
18:16:03 <alise> pikhq: MWAHAHAHA MY EDITOR WILL BE SO AWESOME THAT YOU WILL USE IT AND SUFFER
18:16:18 <pikhq> Argh. Yeah: newlib is "smart".
18:16:37 <pikhq> It's convinced that because you're going linux->linux, it can special case a bunch of stuff.
18:16:56 <pikhq> And so it does stupid stuff.
18:17:11 <alise> writing an autoindenter is hard :(
18:17:18 <alise> with tabs for indent spaces for align
18:17:42 <pikhq> I can probably get a uclibc system working now.
18:18:52 <alise> Suggest a feature for my editor so I can tell you why I'm not going to add it!
18:19:17 <alise> Deewiant: Well, it will have that.
18:19:34 <alise> pikhq: Well... it'll have widgets ... but very few of them, and you'll rarely click them. :P
18:19:39 <alise> Okay, suggest something /slightly/ less fundamental.
18:19:55 <pikhq> alise: Scripting support.
18:20:35 <alise> pikhq: Define scripting.
18:20:48 <alise> Deewiant: ... be a /little/ bit outlandish, please? :D
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18:21:04 <alise> Yes, I do know elisp.
18:21:36 <Deewiant> alise: Can't think of much else to be honest
18:21:45 <alise> Indeed, it will not have scripting support because it'll be so simple that scripting it would be basically pointless, as there isn't anything to script. If there's an actual "big" (big being almost anything in this context) feature you want to add, you can patch the code easily enough.
18:22:11 <alise> Deewiant: How about "a save file command"? :P
18:22:21 <olsner> scripting is overrated
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18:24:02 <alise> Deewiant: I have this disease where I never bother using a VCS because, even with editor support, making a commit is so much of a fuss as opposed to simply not doing it. So, with my editor, I'm moving the goalposts: every change is saved automatically, and the minimal-effort action, Ctrl+S, is "make VCS commit"; it will prompt for a one line summary, which I'll type and press enter, and that'll be it. For files where this is undesirable, it will be disable
18:24:02 <alise> able in a few keypresses.
18:24:31 <Deewiant> IOW you will have that, just not by default
18:24:34 <alise> This way, I can just type and then invoke e.g. "git diff" to see what I've changed so far, making a commit will be as instinctual and automatic as saving is now, with no extra effort, and I'll have a nicely fine-grained revision history.
18:24:44 <alise> Deewiant: Well, yes. But that's just for editing /etc files. :P
18:24:48 <alise> And it won't be in version 0.01.
18:25:37 <alise> Deewiant: Or I could be a nazi, and tell you to version /etc and ~/.*.
18:25:42 <alise> And not have any save command at all.
18:25:47 <alise> But I don't do that, so I won't. :P
18:26:11 <Deewiant> So the intended purpose of the editor is /etc, ~/.*, and source code? :-P
18:26:32 <alise> Name another purpose? Writing textual works is also included, but you should be versioning them anyway.
18:28:12 <alise> Well, generally you shouldn't do that. Example of when you would?
18:28:38 <Deewiant> I often modify configure scripts and makefiles because that's much easier than figuring out why the autotools/whatever got something wrong
18:28:59 <Deewiant> Or I do know why, but that's much easier than changing the generators
18:29:39 <alise> Okay, then press whatever keys disable the magic. :P
18:30:18 <alise> Ctrl+. A or something (A for Autosave).
18:30:30 <alise> Then Ctrl+S would be save, and Ctrl+S on an already-saved file would be VCS commit.
18:30:31 <Deewiant> Right; just pointing out that your "be a nazi" option isn't very realistic even if people would agree to that much :-P
18:30:40 <alise> Well, I /am/ writing this just for me. :P
18:31:17 <Deewiant> alise: Context-sensitive tab completion
18:31:25 <alise> You mean smart autoindentation?
18:31:51 <alise> Yeah, I'll have that. It's minimalist in fluff, not in text editing features. :P
18:32:01 <alise> I'm pretty sure it won't have macros.
18:32:47 <Deewiant> No; completion, not indentation
18:32:58 <alise> Naw, none of that... unless I change my mind.
18:33:08 <alise> I'd generally think that if your names are long enough to need completing you have shitty names.
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18:33:26 <alise> Same reason I won't have snippet-macros.
18:44:59 <zzo38> I was looking at documentation for CWEB. I was trying to see what features it has. I was specifically looking for the feature to export parts to other files, the @( command does that it is exactly what I was looking for. But in my opinion there is still one feature missing, which is a kind of meta-macros, which can take parameters and output C codes, TeX codes, and other CWEB codes.
18:48:25 <zzo38> Like, to add command such as @M defines a meta-macro, and @X does a calculation before compile-time, including checking whether the mode is tangle or weave.
18:48:46 <zzo38> That would make CWEB useful, in my opinion.
18:53:01 <zzo38> If this command were added I might rewrite MegaZeux with CWEB and convert the documention of MegaZeux into TeX. But as it is right now, I cannot do such a thing as that. This way all documentation can be neatly printed with cross-references to the relevent part of the codes, and with automatically for all Forth and Robotic commands, together with the relevent code and also printable in separate section for reference manual
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19:09:45 <coppro> pikhq: can you do me a favor and translate http://mtg-jp.com/eventc/jpnats10/img/preview.jpg ?
19:10:00 <pikhq> coppro: I can try.
19:11:08 <coppro> oh, sorry for being rude, I should have said please :)
19:12:22 <pikhq> Awakened Thoughts 2U. Sorcery. Choose one instant or sorcery card from your graveyard, and put it into your hand.
19:12:26 <pikhq> There's the rules text.
19:12:37 <pikhq> I can't make out the flavortext.
19:17:26 <pikhq> ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libiberty/strsignal.c:554:1: error: conflicting types for ‘psignal’
19:32:43 * pikhq gets the *distinct* feeling that cross-compiling GCC is not a much-tested feature
19:33:30 <pikhq> Erm. Making a GCC cross-compiler
19:33:49 <pikhq> Deewiant: It's so incredibly brittle!
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19:37:08 <pikhq> /opt/crosscc/i386-pc-linux-uclibc/i386-pc-linux-uclibc/include/unistd.h:243:21: error: two or more data types in declaration specifiers
19:37:11 <pikhq> Okay, y'know what?
19:37:17 <AnMaster> alise, does plan9 support non-bitmap fonts?
19:37:19 <pikhq> GCC can go to hell.
19:37:32 <AnMaster> and what about any sort of antialiasing?
19:37:37 <coppro> what are you trying to create a cross-compiler to?
19:37:45 <pikhq> i386-pc-linux-uclibc
19:38:07 <pikhq> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu
19:38:20 <coppro> clang is definitely an option
19:38:41 <pikhq> Can it build uClibc and busybox?
19:38:59 <coppro> are they heavily laden with GNU extensions?
19:39:18 <coppro> if the answers are yes and no, then clang should be able to do it; if they're both yes, it's a definitive maybe
19:39:57 <pikhq> They're C and heavily laden with GNU extensions.
19:42:56 <alise> AnMaster: it can, yes
19:44:30 <alise> Helveticka Smallcapulated.
19:44:36 <alise> Gothic Helvetica XD
19:46:20 <alise> coppro: so, I'm working on amend -1
19:46:48 <coppro> Tell me about it when I return (it will be shortly)
19:46:55 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.).
19:49:06 <alise> pikhq: do you know of any auto-indentation libraries? :/
19:49:13 <alise> Like, ones that will tell you what string to enter on this indented newline
19:49:16 <alise> or how to indent this given line
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19:49:41 <Deewiant> That's a very language-dependent and tricky problem :-P
19:51:08 * pikhq does not see an easy way to tell clang the *libc* you want it to use
19:51:55 <alise> Deewiant: So is syntax highlighting.
19:52:31 <pikhq> I get the feeling I'm going to be the first person to try to build a clang *for* uclibc.
19:52:43 <Sgeo_> "What string to enter"?
19:52:47 <Deewiant> alise: Yes; and most editors have syntax highlighting but not clever indentation
19:52:48 <Sgeo_> As in, program for you?
19:53:22 * Sgeo_ watches alise bring in the singularity
19:53:36 <alise> Sgeo_: no, as in the string of indentation
19:53:39 <alise> Deewiant: gedit, kate, emacs, vim, notepad++, ...
19:53:42 <alise> Deewiant: every IDE, ever, ...
19:54:01 <alise> All even /tolerable/ editors do it.
19:54:05 <Deewiant> alise: Are we still talking about indenting with tabs and aligning with spaces?
19:54:12 <alise> Deewiant: No, not that particularly.
19:54:23 <alise> Just automatically inserting an indent on {, deducing indentation from context, etc.
19:54:25 <Deewiant> Okay; because I know of no editor that does that correctly
19:54:31 <alise> Deewiant: Emacs does with a very short elisp snippet.
19:54:36 <alise> It's nice. But that's just icing on the cake.
19:55:02 <alise> What GtkSourceView calls auto-indentation is actually just "repeat the last line's indentation", something I find utterly unusable in the face of actual automatic indentation.
19:55:12 <alise> I'm asking if there's a library to do proper automatic indentation. If not, I guess I'll write one.
19:55:48 <CakeProphet> I am now going to prepare to celebrate my country's independence
19:56:00 <alise> CakeProphet: entirely gentleman, unless you follow the coppro theory of total nickname-based gender reassignment.
19:56:14 <alise> then entirely gentleman.
19:56:29 <alise> hmm sex reassignment too, if he claims i have a vagina in the context of #esoteric
19:56:43 <CakeProphet> I don't think anyone has sex organs in the context of #esoteric
19:56:46 <alise> sukoshi -- who else used to come here and be female? I don't recall.
19:56:50 <Sgeo_> Wait, isn't Slereah female?
19:56:57 <oklopol> how do you know iamcal isn't female?
19:57:07 <Sgeo_> Or am I making an assumption based on the nick?
19:57:08 <alise> oklopol: because he's cal henderson, guy at flickr
19:57:14 <alise> Sgeo_: french gay guy
19:57:15 <zzo38> Your gender is generally irrelevant in context of #esoteric
19:57:26 <alise> http://www.iamcal.com/
19:57:41 <alise> i think he's one of only two people here with a wikipedia article
19:57:55 <CakeProphet> well. I disgressed, but now I must bid everyone good day. I must see how many different vodka concoctions I can invent in a night.
19:57:58 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_Henderson
19:57:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Smith_%28The_Simplest_Universal_Computer_Proof_contest_winner%29
19:58:06 <alise> CakeProphet: enjoy destroying your liver and losing your higher cognitive function!
19:58:16 <zzo38> There! Now I wrote "Icochash".
19:58:21 <alise> iamcal: oklopol thinks you're female
19:59:34 <zzo38> Is "mnaly" a word?
19:59:40 <zzo38> Or do you mean "manly"?
19:59:45 <iamcal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/iamcal
20:00:03 <alise> those could just be photographs of people who aren't you but share your name
20:00:09 <alise> or people pretending you're male to support your conspiracy
20:00:16 <alise> /or/, you could actually just be a really manly-looking female.
20:00:28 -!- coppro has joined.
20:00:36 <alise> it's totally ture, mr. mnaly
20:00:59 <Gregor> My sideburns are nearly connecting under my chin.
20:01:11 <Gregor> They're trying to make up for my otherwise complete lack of facial hair by making a pseudobeard.
20:01:16 * pikhq is *this* close to just murdering every person responsible for modern compilers
20:01:32 <alise> pikhq: Please do it. Not the pcc guys though.
20:01:35 <alise> pcc is nice. Use pcc.
20:01:38 <alise> Do nothing except use pcc.
20:01:50 <pikhq> alise: I am very, very heavily tempted to just use PCC and Newlib.
20:01:52 <alise> Have no compiler in your thoughts apart from pcc. Associate the concept of compiler directly with pcc, and cast away any other such associations.
20:02:04 <pikhq> (I'm presuming that Newlib is PCC-buildable)
20:04:08 <pikhq> They seem like the kind of guys who would care about being sane and reasonable C.
20:04:51 <Gregor> pikhq: What're you trying to do? :P
20:04:58 <alise> Gregor: Something awful.
20:05:50 <pikhq> Gregor: I JUST WANT A TOOLCHAIN TO BUILD SMALL BINARIES
20:09:38 <zzo38> Why do you want to murder everyone?
20:10:52 <zzo38> Because if you murder someone it is not reversible
20:11:01 <Sgeo_> I was about to make fun of people who rely too heavily on IDEs "I don't need to know how things get compiled and linked! The IDE takes care of everything" but then realized that that's the case with me and Visual Studio and C#
20:11:24 <alise> This is your brain ... this is your brain slowly decaying under the influence of C#.
20:11:32 <Sgeo_> Chatting in this channel is also irreversible
20:11:34 <alise> zzo38: Neither is computation, my good friend!
20:12:12 <zzo38> A lot of things are irreversible
20:12:14 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: it can, yes <-- do you happen to remember how?
20:12:24 <alise> AnMaster: um do you have /n/sources?
20:12:38 <alise> or what was it, /n/contrib
20:13:04 <alise> AnMaster: run "9fs sources"
20:13:24 <AnMaster> <alise> Just automatically inserting an indent on {, deducing indentation from context, etc. <-- iirc kate does that for C pretty well
20:13:34 <AnMaster> as long as your source isn't too much a mess of macros
20:13:35 <alise> oh, it can do subpixel, cool
20:13:40 <alise> but different fonts, maybe they're just coloured bitmaps
20:13:44 <alise> AnMaster: anyway, run "9fs sources"
20:13:50 <alise> then in /n/sources/contrib there's like tons of fonts
20:13:53 <alise> grep /font/ http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Contrib_index/index.html
20:14:05 <AnMaster> alise, I was primarily thinking about plan9port, figured they would work the same when it came to that
20:14:22 <alise> AnMaster: ah, good question
20:14:25 <alise> i forget how to configure it
20:14:33 <alise> AnMaster: i suggest asking in #plan9. i'll even join to shut uriel up for you
20:14:48 <AnMaster> alise, nah. I'll just do some more digging
20:14:56 <alise> (I'll just mention how I really love using emacs to edit Linux/C++/GTK+ source that prints liberal propaganda.)
20:15:01 <alise> AnMaster: #plan9 is a nice channel apart from uriel.
20:15:07 <alise> just /ignore uriel and it's a perfectly civilised place
20:15:34 <Sgeo_> alise, if I had my way, it would have been Python
20:15:36 <alise> fine, continue wasting your time :P they're very helpful with plan9port questions in my experience
20:15:55 <AnMaster> alise, anyway kate can do that "insert tab on { or if or such" for C
20:15:56 <alise> AnMaster: but here's a hint
20:15:59 <alise> AnMaster: I think the font setting is in ~/lib
20:16:02 <alise> ~/lib/profile i think
20:16:03 <AnMaster> alise, my experience is that it does it very well
20:16:03 <zzo38> But some people still has other things to do, they can't do so what they want if. Would you like if someone killed you? If you commit suicide is same thiing. And in my opinion you also should not burn books. The biggest problem in the world is the people. But it doesn't mean we should just get rid of it like that.
20:16:18 <zzo38> But there is some TV show about serial killers that kill only other serial killers, if you have kill someone that is one way.
20:16:23 <AnMaster> alise, but I expect there are corner cases it messes up on
20:16:31 <zzo38> And there are other complications
20:16:44 <alise> AnMaster: i'll look for the font settings on plan 9 for you
20:16:52 <zzo38> But sometimes you have to take the path of the "lesser evil".
20:17:02 <AnMaster> alise, yeah it was plan9port I needed it for actually so..
20:17:10 <alise> AnMaster: Fun fact, plan9port is the same code.
20:17:20 <AnMaster> alise, yes though it uses the X backend instead
20:17:31 <AnMaster> which might mean this bit is different
20:17:41 <alise> It's the exact same graphics code, just connected to via X.
20:17:45 <alise> AnMaster: But it's /pixels/.
20:17:49 <alise> Drawterm is /pixels/.
20:18:12 <alise> font = /lib/font/bit/pelm/euro.9.font
20:18:55 <alise> AnMaster: so maybe look at $PLAN9/lib/profile
20:18:57 <alise> and $PLAN9/lib/font
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20:31:52 <alise> f = open(self.filename, 'rb+')
20:31:56 <alise> Why would someone do this?
20:33:35 <alise> Use r+ instead of just using w there.
20:34:29 <alise> You wouldn't need the truncate with w, either.
20:34:36 <alise> Deewiant: What if you already have self.filename open?
20:34:52 <alise> Well, you would need the truncate, for other programs writing at the same time, but...
20:34:59 <AnMaster> alise, truncating after write?
20:35:26 <Deewiant> I don't know the semantics of multiple programs doing stuff to a file at the same time
20:35:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "messy" as far as I remember
20:35:55 <alise> Yeah, well, this thing is going to write the file on every change. Fuck other programs :P
20:35:59 <AnMaster> at least if the file changes size
20:36:22 <AnMaster> I mean, if two processes mmap a file it is not really an issue
20:36:34 <alise> Ooh, I wonder if Python can mmap.
20:36:39 <AnMaster> bbl, moving laptop and moving it to ethernet
20:36:51 <alise> Indeed, but not as a string.
20:37:57 <alise> "Maps length bytes from the file specified by the file descriptor fileno, and returns a mmap object. If length is 0, the maximum length of the map will be the current size of the file when mmap is called."
20:38:00 <alise> FIVE BILLION BYTES
20:38:41 <pikhq> If you use mmap for the "file writing" semantics, than other files accessing it should work just fine.
20:39:08 <pikhq> As anything else opening a file will be using the same mmap'd buffer.
20:39:35 <alise> ValueError: mmap length is greater than file size
20:39:46 <pikhq> Of course, things going through stdio might see an inconsistent view of the file, because of stdio buffering.
20:40:08 <pikhq> But if someone is expecting that to work they should be shot anyways.
20:40:32 * alise looks for Python's "in the background, after N seconds, do this"
20:41:52 <alise> http://docs.python.org/library/sched.html yay
20:41:56 <alise> Deewiant: Oh. Which is better?
20:42:07 <Deewiant> http://docs.python.org/release/2.6.5/library/threading.html
20:45:18 <alise> Deewiant: Actually, it seems that just writing the file in full on every single change without a delay is fast enough.
20:45:28 <alise> Which is, you know, cool.
20:45:32 <Deewiant> That would depend on your machine and the file size :-P
20:45:47 <alise> What kind of text files do you edit?
20:46:11 <alise> How slow is your computer? :P
20:46:38 <Deewiant> My disk is slow enough that writing megabytes every time I type something will be noticeable
20:47:10 <alise> It's in the background.
20:48:44 <AnMaster> <pikhq> As anything else opening a file will be using the same mmap'd buffer. <--- what if one opens() and mmaps() but the other only opens() and then uses read()/write()?
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20:48:54 <AnMaster> and what if one truncates to less than the mmaped size
20:49:47 <alise> One of the mouse feet is off :(
20:51:07 <AnMaster> 12:45:18 <alise> Deewiant: Actually, it seems that just writing the file in full on every single change without a delay is fast enough. <-- do this on a SSD using a log based fs?
20:52:07 <AnMaster> alise, anyway try that on a large image in gimp. See why it isn't fun to do so
20:52:19 <alise> Quite honsetly, it works just fine :P
20:52:22 <AnMaster> alise, as in, 50 MP panorama or such
20:52:28 <alise> GIMP != text editor
20:52:47 <AnMaster> alise, for the special case of text editor I guess it works
20:55:24 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/AiPR
20:55:35 <zzo38> I have written Icochash now, I tested it it works.
20:55:46 <alise> Wow, zzo38 is inventing word processors /and/ forms
20:55:59 <zzo38> But, there is not yet the program to print out the data or to render to HTML or whatever
20:56:50 <zzo38> The http://sprunge.us/AiPR is a very simple example.
20:57:23 <zzo38> But hopefully you can learn how it works a bit from this example?
20:57:26 <pikhq> Soon, zzo38 will have ZZOS.
20:57:37 <pikhq> And it shall be the most bizarre yet amazing thing ever.
20:57:53 <alise> zzo38: Please, please make a spreadsheet program.
20:58:00 <alise> It will be the world's only batch-mode spreadsheet program.
20:58:06 <zzo38> alise: One day I might make a spreadsheet program. But not right now
21:00:00 <zzo38> alise: I didn't invent a word processor?
21:01:00 <zzo38> Do you think the example code is understandable to you?
21:01:29 <alise> zzo38: Icoruma is basically a batch-mode word processor.
21:02:00 <zzo38> alise: OK. Yes it is like that, but Icoruma is like a markup language and programming stuff, and specifically meant for role playing games.
21:02:14 <zzo38> Icoruma is not meant for anything other than role playing games. Icochash is also meant for role playing games.
21:03:51 <alise> Something is very wrong with this... hmm.
21:03:59 <zzo38> They are not general purpose programs and therefore do not contain some of the features you might expect in a word processing program, such as selecting different fonts, setting margins, and so on.
21:05:19 <zzo38> alise: What is very wrong?
21:05:33 <alise> zzo38: Just my program, but I figured it out.
21:08:01 <alise> does anyone know of any algorithms that, when given text A, text B and (line,col) in text A, return the closest thing in text B?
21:08:02 <alise> for reloading files
21:09:09 <pikhq> alise: 06:48:41 <alise> Wow, someone actually bothered to clean up the video on the DVD release of The Next Generation and then encoded it all with x264 on super-high settings, yielding a 550 MiB-per-episode average.
21:09:15 <pikhq> alise: I am intrigued.
21:09:29 <alise> pikhq: By TNG, I mean /every single season/, incidentally.
21:09:56 <pikhq> I intend to have someone else download it for me. :)
21:10:04 * Sgeo_ would rather stream it
21:10:06 * alise finds you the torrentz.com versions, since they have a list of trackers (making downloads a lot faster).
21:10:37 <alise> pikhq: BTW, it's almost 100 GiB for the whole thing.
21:10:42 <alise> 80 GiB or something.
21:10:49 <pikhq> alise: Terabytes are cheap.
21:11:09 <alise> pikhq: Also, the seeders are a bit... preoccupied with other people, so it won't be fast.
21:11:13 <pikhq> Especially given that the guy I'm talking to has uncapped Internet and a 5TB RAID ATM.
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21:11:56 <pikhq> Sgeo_: $80 gets you an order of magnitude increase.
21:12:09 <Sgeo_> I think I just want a new computer
21:14:53 <zzo38> I have 200 GB hard drive. (It is the smallest one they sold) And only 5% of the capacity is used
21:15:03 <Sgeo_> http://static.pulse360.com/blob/7e/2f91ba2_ecruzSwipeBids.jpg that does not look like an iPad to me
21:15:11 <Sgeo_> I don't think iPads have menus like that
21:17:27 * Sgeo_ wants an Android tablet
21:18:18 * Gregor wants people to quit being so excited by tablets when the form factor sucks :P
21:18:40 <alise> Gregor: As opposed to wearable computing, which had a totally hip and usable form factor.
21:18:53 <Gregor> Nope, it's a silly, ridiculous joke.
21:19:02 <Gregor> And if Apple ever makes a wearable computer, I'll have no interest in it.
21:19:16 <Gregor> The form factor, that is.
21:20:24 <zzo38> I don't want any tablet, especially if it doesn't have a physical keyboard built in. Perhaps I would be more likely to buy it if it has Forth.
21:21:09 <zzo38> But even if it doesn't have Forth, it ought to be able that I can put C programs on it without any mess from Apple or whatever
21:24:09 <Sgeo_> You can write C stuff for Android.. kind of. You'd still need to write some Java, and you couldn't write it on the device itself
21:24:37 <Sgeo_> It should be simple enough to make a Forth interpreter, though, right?
21:24:42 <alise> Fuck this bullshit!
21:24:48 <Sgeo_> There are Python and Ruby and.. thingy interpreters
21:24:52 <alise> Gregor: You sure have changed your opinion :P
21:24:55 <zzo38> Writing Forth interpreter is simple
21:25:15 <zzo38> And what does it mean "write C stuf for Android.. kind of"?
21:25:45 <Gregor> alise: I don't think so, it was always silly, just good silly fun.
21:25:50 <Sgeo_> You can do logic and 3d stuff (I think) in C, but you still need to write some Java
21:25:57 <Sgeo_> Or other JVM language
21:26:04 <alise> Gregor: but you liked it :P
21:26:09 <zzo38> Why does it have to use JVM?
21:26:13 <Gregor> I also like esoteric programming languages.
21:26:16 <alise> Gregor: And you don't now
21:26:30 <Gregor> When did I say I don't like wearable computing?
21:26:34 <Gregor> I lurve wearable computing.
21:26:39 <Sgeo_> zzo38, because that's what Android does (although strictly, it turns JVM bytecode into Dalvik bytecode, I think)
21:27:00 <alise> Apple's wearable computer would just be a sleek, thin, ultralight aluminium tshirt and an eye implant.
21:27:04 <zzo38> Sgeo_: What is Dalvik bytecode?
21:27:13 <alise> The tshirt would also include integrated gloves.
21:27:14 -!- nooga has joined.
21:27:16 <AnMaster> <Sgeo_> You can write C stuff for Android.. kind of. You'd still need to write some Java, and you couldn't write it on the device itself <-- n900!
21:27:17 <cheater99> doing even the simplest thing in haskell is so fucking tiring
21:27:24 <alise> cheater99: that's because you suck
21:27:24 <nooga> http://vimeo.com/12674501 <- he's so awesome
21:27:32 <alise> nooga: he's a mormon!
21:27:35 <nooga> i love this keynote
21:28:19 <Sgeo_> I tried to do a simple thing in Haskell, ended up doing it in Python. Then again, I have far more Python experience than experience in any other language, so...
21:28:44 <zzo38> Does Android not support native code?
21:28:51 <alise> zzo38: yes, but not very well
21:28:59 <AnMaster> zzo38, it does, but rather limited what you can interface with it
21:29:14 <AnMaster> you have to do the GUI bits in java iirc
21:29:15 <fizzie> Wearable computing with eyetracking-based interfaces. The best thing since sliced bread.
21:29:49 <alise> I want an eyetracker to select lines in a file.
21:30:06 <Sgeo_> Is Java like the IO monad, and native code like pure code?
21:30:34 <zzo38> Sgeo_: What is that, is that Haskell?
21:30:36 <AnMaster> bad analogy for anything where C is involved
21:31:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: The current NDK has OpenGL ES support from native code, and also something called "libjnigraphics" which is supposed to be an efficient and comfortable way for pushing pixel buffers from native code to be displayed. But still, if you want actual platform-like GUI stuff, that needs to be done in Java.
21:32:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, and neither opengl nor "libjnigraphics" presumably includes input drivers for example?
21:32:46 <fizzie> Most likely you're going to do some JNI for input, but of course you can probably pretty easily just pass some events onwards to native code.
21:33:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, and I still can't get a shell, right?
21:34:03 <fizzie> I don't know how it goes with jailbreakery, but not on a stock phone, no.
21:36:26 <AnMaster> alise, with a full POSIX environment?
21:39:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:40:08 <zzo38> What it needs is a cellular phone model with physical keyboard and command-line-interface, no proprietary hardware/software, one color display inside and one small monochrome display on the outside, the GNU GPL v3, and that any AT command can be entered on the keyboard, and a built-in Forth interpreter, and no useless animations
21:40:38 <zzo38> And ability to provide a USB file system to a computer it is connected to.
21:41:20 <fizzie> Getting a completely non-proprietary GSM/3G radio stack going might not be completely trivial.
21:41:32 <AnMaster> zzo38, also clamshell phones suck
21:41:41 <AnMaster> they tend to break in the hinges in my experience
21:42:58 <zzo38> In my opinion it is important to be able to close, to stop accident push any buttons and also to save power by turning off the color display when it is not used.
21:43:27 <AnMaster> zzo38, that is why you have some sort of lock
21:43:52 <AnMaster> like on my phone, middle button below screen, followed by *
21:44:05 <zzo38> If it doesn't close then where is room for the keyboard?
21:44:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, keypad. Anyway n900 has a keyboard you can slide out
21:44:42 <fizzie> Slide-out seems to be more popular than fold-open nowadays.
21:44:54 <fizzie> I guess it's easier to do reliably, yes.
21:45:32 <zzo38> Of course they need touch screen as well (although multitouch is not needed), so that you can dial telephone numbers more easily, and then put the physical QWERTY keyboard for entering more complex stuff or if you do not want to get the display dirty with your fingerprints.
21:45:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, the drivers for the GSM/3G stack on your phone, are they binary blobs?
21:45:49 <zzo38> I think slide-out is patented?
21:46:19 <fizzie> All handset manufacturers at least seem to be doing it; patented or not.
21:46:36 <fizzie> It sounds too trivial to be patented to me, but, well... patents.
21:46:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, does the n900 come with a pen for the touch screen as well?
21:46:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, if so, is it storeable somewhere inside the phone?
21:47:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's uncomfortably many binary blobs in the N900, yes. It's still not as bad as it could be, though; lots of drivers have their sources visible too.
21:47:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm. So upgrading to the last kernel might be non-trivial?
21:47:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: And yes, there is a stylus, which is stored inside the phone.
21:48:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, aren't people reverse engineering the binary blobs?
21:48:49 <fizzie> There's probably more interesting things to hack for them to bother. People are such pragmatists.
21:51:05 <fizzie> It's currently based on 2.6.28, but there's probably a pile of patches on top of it. The kernel sources used are somewhat easily available, though, if you want to build a patched/reconfigured one.
21:51:11 <zzo38> In my idea, the touch-screen is only needed for more easily dialing telephone numbers (and also possibly for scrolling), but everything can be done without touch-screen as well. All commands are enterable by keyboard.
21:51:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, strange it hasn't upgraded to 2.6.30 or newer at least
21:52:20 <AnMaster> zzo38, touch screen could be needed there
21:52:22 <alise> AnMaster: the kernel is heavily hacked
21:53:24 <fizzie> The MeeGo 1.0 kernel is based on 2.6.33.3, and you can install that on the N900 if you want. (I doubt it works very well yet, though.)
21:53:39 <zzo38> AnMaster: You can program another program to use touch screen for other stuff (such as games if you write any), but all built-in functions are enterable by keyboard, including some games.
21:54:08 <fizzie> It's called "Day1 Developer Preview" for a reason.
21:54:11 <zzo38> Like, you opened and then to call a phone number, you can enter the AT commands on the keyboard, or you can touch the screen to display the keypad
21:54:42 <alise> coppro: i hate your police
21:54:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was the replacement for the n900 line? n9?
21:54:47 <zzo38> (There does not need to be any games built in, what I meant is that you can write games that use only the keyboard, such as Rogue)
21:54:55 <alise> well ok the police in another city in another province in your country :P
21:55:16 <alise> AnMaster: n900 is still latest in its line
21:55:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's just rumours (of N9) so far.
21:55:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, not more than that. I see
21:55:34 <alise> * 03:15, 26 June 2010 Fastily (talk | contribs) deleted "Nokia N9" (Expired PROD, concern was: Unsourced, unreleased phone)
21:56:13 <fizzie> And N8 is an announced-but-I-think-not-yet-out Symbian^3 phone, which they've said will be the only Symbian^3 N-series device; rest will be MeeGo, and maybe Symbian^4 some day in the far future.
21:57:18 <alise> It drives programmers to suicide.
21:57:26 <fizzie> Yes. They're trying to unshittify it, but with not much luck so far.
21:57:43 <pikhq> Symbian is, indeed, very ſhitty.
21:57:48 <alise> "I will now unshittify this piece of shit!"
21:57:50 <AnMaster> how is it in power usage, compared to meego?
21:57:53 <alise> "We are left with ... nothing!"
21:57:58 <AnMaster> I heard maemo was a bit heavy on power
21:58:14 <alise> AnMaster: Better, I'd assume, lacking such heavy things as "a Linux kernel".
21:58:28 <Sgeo_> Isn't that that open thing?
21:58:42 <alise> Wow, Gregor should sue!
21:58:42 <fizzie> Sgeo_: It's the merging of Nokia's Maemo and Intel's... Moblin, was it?
21:59:02 * AnMaster waits for the first freebsd phone
21:59:08 <fizzie> N8 hardware is not too shabby, but nothing too excessive either; 640x360 AMOLED screen, 680 MHz CPU, 256M RAM and so on. It does have a 12-megapixel camera with a real Xenon flash, which I think is pretty rare for a phone.
21:59:33 <fizzie> "High-end" phones nowadays seem to be around 1 GHz clockspeeds and half a gig of RAM.
21:59:58 <fizzie> It's some ARM11 or another, maybe one of the OMAP platform chipsets.
22:00:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, so, how fast was n900?
22:00:55 <alise> Snapdragon is hawt.
22:01:08 <alise> The 1GHz ARM platform.
22:01:19 <alise> The Snapdragon application processor core, dubbed Scorpion, is Qualcomm's own design and is not based on any ARM core from ARM holdings. It has many features similar to those of the ARM Cortex-A8 core, but has much higher performance for multimedia-related SIMD operations.[1][2] All Snapdragon processors contain the circuitry to decode High-Definition (HD) video at 720p resolution.[3] The GPU is AMD Z430.
22:01:33 <fizzie> I think there's something else at that clockspeed nowadays too.
22:01:37 <alise> 1GHz ARM. On-chip 720p video decoding.
22:01:53 <alise> And remember that an N MHz ARM is better-performing than an N MHz old x86.
22:01:56 <alise> (Maybe not new x86s.)
22:02:17 <zzo38> Now, what we need, is Icochash templates for D&D 3.5e games. I can write some but I would like to do collaboration as well of these things
22:02:47 <alise> zzo38: You should rewrite your website/gopherhole in Icoruma. You could use that form package to do Chronojournal's forms.
22:02:54 <alise> This would be awesome and ridiculous.
22:03:23 <zzo38> alise: It would be completely ridiculous. Icoruma and Icochash is not meant for such things and it probably won't work such well like that.
22:03:31 <alise> fizzie: OMAP isn't 1GHz.
22:03:46 <zzo38> (I believe the common term is "gopherspace" not "gopherhole")
22:03:47 <alise> zzo38: Well, why not? Icoruma typesets documents pretty well, Icochash seems to just be a form generator.
22:03:53 <alise> I know, but gopherhole is a nicer term. :P
22:04:02 <alise> fizzie: Oh, wait: "# OMAP4440 - 1+ GHz dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore + PowerVR SGX 540 GPU + C64x+ DSP + ISP (Image Signal Processor)".
22:04:02 <zzo38> alise: OK then use that term if you want to
22:04:05 <alise> Recently announced, apparently.
22:04:14 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/BeagleBoard_described.jpg 600MHz ARM -- laptop-like performance!
22:04:15 <cheater99> jeez, learning how to make a hash tree in haskell is difficult.
22:04:37 <cheater99> alise: do you know anything about dependent typing?
22:04:42 <alise> cheater99: quite a lot.
22:04:58 <alise> i dabble in type theory a lot.
22:05:40 <cheater99> so what can i use dependant typing for
22:05:50 <alise> Writing your PhD thesis.
22:06:07 <zzo38> alise: Yes Icoruma can typeset documents and stuff, but it doesn't support external hyperlinks and that kind of stuff.... Icoruma and Icochash are not meant for this stuff. There are good uses for Icoruma and Icochash but they are not meant for general-purpose things like this
22:06:35 <zzo38> Icoruma and Icochash are meant only for role playing games. While you can do a few other things with it, it isn't that good for those other kind of things that is other than role playing game.
22:06:39 <alise> cheater99: On a more serious note, http://strictlypositive.org/winging-jpgs/ provides some justification and real-world use-cases for IO handling. Really they have many, many applications, but the problem is that there are several issues right now and so at the present time they are research only.
22:07:07 <alise> cheater99: They would make languages like Haskell much more expressive in what they accept, and allow more program errors to be caught at runtime.
22:07:21 <alise> There's also the mathematical connections in that a dependent type checker is a proof checker, exploited to create constructivist proof systems such as Coq.
22:07:26 <AnMaster> alise, at runtime? what about compile time then?
22:07:31 <alise> AnMaster: Er, at compile time.
22:07:35 <cheater99> could different types of exceptions be one use case???\
22:07:45 <alise> cheater99: Um ... I'm not sure what you mean by that.
22:08:07 <alise> Who said this thing? :-)
22:09:11 <cheater99> so yeah, i'm looking at your link now
22:09:24 <alise> I presume that if you're agreeing with me that it makes no sense, then you're trying to figure out what some other person meant when they said dependent types would help with that.
22:09:24 <cheater99> do you think dependent typing can make it into haskell?
22:09:31 <alise> cheater99: No. Very unlikely.
22:09:40 <alise> It would be a massive language change, and also make redundant many common features.
22:09:57 <alise> Maybe one day we'll get "Haskell++", the official, dependently-typed successor to Haskell.
22:10:10 <alise> cheater99: Um ... I hung out in the wrong places too much (#haskell) and got sucked in to the whirlpool.
22:10:36 <alise> nooga: hey, that's my project!
22:10:52 <nooga> sure, i'm extremely curious
22:10:58 <alise> cheater99: btw don't worry if winging it stops making sense about half way through
22:11:01 <cheater99> alise: would adding dependant typing to haskell create backwards compatibility breakage?
22:11:08 <alise> cheater99: just hang on there and wait until he starts quoting hamlet
22:11:15 <alise> cheater99: not adding it, but there'd be a lot of redundant features then
22:11:20 <alise> and it would require major MAJOR restructuring of ghc
22:11:25 <alise> which is a HUGE HUGE HUGE, OLD OLD OLD codebase
22:11:33 <alise> AnMaster: because plan 11 is plan 9 turned up to 11
22:11:44 <AnMaster> alise, why not drop ghc and go with one of the other ones
22:11:57 <alise> AnMaster: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY)
22:12:05 <AnMaster> alise, for $$$$$ I could make you one that goes to 12
22:13:12 <cheater99> maybe we can finally get a GOOD interpreter if people ditch ghc
22:14:58 <AnMaster> cheater99, good compiler would be even better?
22:15:31 <cheater99> wow now you're getting out of bounds
22:15:59 <alise> i just broke my kb
22:16:02 <alise> spilled coke on it
22:16:09 <alise> cheater99: ghc is one of the finest pieces of software engineering ever
22:16:11 <AnMaster> alise, isn't it coke resistant?
22:16:29 <cheater99> alise: the interpreter fucking sucks
22:16:36 <cheater99> alise: and i hadn't even used the compiler yet
22:16:52 <pikhq> cheater99: The compiler is stellar.
22:16:54 <alise> umm ghci is just ghc on a command line
22:16:57 <alise> it's all a compiler
22:17:26 <zzo38> Icochash is not really a form generator, it is a bit different. It is meant for things such as D&D character sheets. It can be used to template character sheets, check for changes, do calculations, provide presets for races/classes/spells/feats/skills, etc.
22:17:36 <alise> please just shut up
22:18:02 <pikhq> GHC is one of the best compilers for a language out there.
22:18:26 <zzo38> While it could be possible to print blank forms with Icochash, it would also be possible to print forms with everything already filled in
22:19:16 <cheater99> What do you call a pointless race that covers 2200 miles throughout France?
22:19:52 <nooga> capitulation race?
22:19:53 <AnMaster> I always found it funny that wesnoth has a "--disable-game" configure option
22:20:04 <alise> cheater99: attempting to get out of france?
22:20:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Server, right?
22:20:22 <AnMaster> even though it is just --disable-client (for building just the server) it is stilly a funny name for it
22:20:31 <nooga> ...pick their noses and smoke cigarettes like they were gay
22:20:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but --disable-client would have been more sensible
22:20:41 <alise> nooga: So, Plan 11.
22:20:41 <cheater99> alise: tell me how i can use it ctrl + leftarrow to skip words in ghci neow
22:20:55 <alise> cheater99: use a better ghc compile with editline
22:21:05 <alise> and make sure editline understands your terminal
22:21:10 <alise> nooga: Well, you were interested.
22:21:45 <alise> cheater99: then make sure it knows your terminal
22:21:47 <alise> nooga: so ask something :P
22:22:14 * alise tries to get used to the kb
22:22:18 <alise> cheater99: jesus christ
22:22:22 <alise> cheater99: you don't know shit about terminals
22:22:24 <nooga> alise: how is it going to be different from 9 ?
22:22:42 <cheater99> alise: just shouting at me won't make me feel better :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
22:22:52 <AnMaster> * alise tries to get used to the kb <-- the coke you mean?
22:22:58 <alise> AnMaster: no, its replacement
22:23:06 <alise> i'm not using a kb with coke on its circuitry and keys
22:23:12 <fizzie> There's also Apple A4, which is a Cortex-A8-family ARM core at 1 GHz in the iPad, apparently possibly something lower in the iPhone 4.
22:23:14 <cheater99> alise got used to coke after her first week in the red light district
22:23:14 <alise> one, eww; two, *kaboom*
22:23:20 <alise> AnMaster: or just use this one.
22:23:41 <AnMaster> alise, also what did you learn from this?
22:23:48 <alise> AnMaster: don't spill glasses
22:24:17 <Sgeo_> ...--disable-game?
22:24:17 <AnMaster> alise, not either of: a) keyboards are shit b) keep coke further away from computer ?
22:24:18 <alise> cheater99: no, it's just sitting there
22:24:20 <cheater99> alise: you can make it work perfectly well with a wash.
22:24:30 <alise> AnMaster: it may have still worked, i just didn't want to find out.
22:24:43 <alise> AnMaster: and it's hard to keep my mouth away from my keyboard :P
22:24:52 <alise> Well, technically it was before it got in my mouth.
22:24:57 <AnMaster> alise, a wash. Try 90° with 500 RPM centrifuge
22:25:08 <alise> KLANG KLANG KLANG BASH WALLOP KABOOM
22:25:57 <alise> Kraftwerk reference :P
22:26:10 <AnMaster> alise, meh, you expected me to spot THAT?
22:26:16 <cheater99> i guess i should have said 'a rinse'
22:26:22 <alise> AnMaster: No, which is why I said it.
22:26:36 <alise> No, why I said the reference :P
22:26:49 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: /quit tiuq\).
22:26:56 <alise> leaden is a pretty cool name for an editor
22:27:01 * AnMaster refuses to hear the other version
22:27:55 <AnMaster> Jelly coke would be harder to spill I mean.
22:28:37 <AnMaster> can you patent that or do you need a way to actually produce jelly coke first?
22:28:38 <alise> How would you drink it?
22:29:39 <AnMaster> alise, as long as it contains the same amount of energy and tastes the same, who cares if you eat it with a spoon or drink it
22:30:37 <AnMaster> though if someone wants carbonated jelly that might present a challenge. But I never liked carbonated drinks. Uncarbonated coke (put some sugar in) is nice though
22:30:45 <zzo38> The pinball game I like best is this one: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png
22:30:58 * alise decides setting his broken editor to edit a test file, not the editor's code, is a good idea
22:31:16 <alise> AnMaster: Put some sugar in coke? It's already 99% sugar :P
22:31:24 <alise> I put honey in coke once, that was ... interesting ...
22:31:30 <AnMaster> alise, sure but you know about mentos?
22:31:41 <alise> Diet Coke + Mentos = YouTube video.
22:31:52 <AnMaster> alise, sugar has a similar, but somewhat less violent effect
22:32:07 <zzo38> I heard of someone that put Coke + Pepsi together, they thought it would explode but it didn't explode
22:32:18 <alise> It should explode from sheer cognitive dissonance.
22:32:21 <AnMaster> alise, it lets you get rid of the carbonation without causing youtube video
22:32:34 <alise> Anyway, Dr Pepper is clearly the best caramel-coloured drink.
22:32:41 <alise> It has a taste finer than any wine!
22:32:54 <AnMaster> I prefer water to tell the truth
22:32:56 <zzo38> Some people prefer wine
22:33:01 <alise> water isn't caramel-coloured
22:33:13 <AnMaster> alise, you could add some food colouring to water
22:33:38 <alise> I still maintain that alcoholic drinks don't taste nice at all; evidence: unpopularity of alcohol-free imitation drinks.
22:34:10 <alise> There are counterexamples, such as cider, which we can see tastes nice because non-alcoholic cider is very popular.
22:35:13 <nooga> the reason that alcohol-free counterparts are unpopular is because if ppl can drink alcoholic drinks, why would they spend their money on non alcoholic drinks
22:35:27 <alise> nooga: because the alcoholic one gets them drunk
22:35:36 <alise> seriously, people think alcoholic drinks taste nice because they get them drunk, and the brain creates the association
22:35:39 <AnMaster> nooga, why would anyone drink alcohol?
22:35:42 <alise> alcoholic drink <=> pleasure
22:36:05 <AnMaster> nooga, oh, because of the hangover?
22:36:15 <alise> tbh if you want to have an altered state of mind, cannabis would be preferable to alcohol
22:36:34 <nooga> there is a state than can be called pleasant, before the hangover
22:36:39 <AnMaster> alise, so would (pure) LSD I understand.
22:36:47 <AnMaster> less side effects on stuff like liver
22:36:57 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, but it's probably easier to code on weed than LSD.
22:37:07 <zzo38> People prefer different kind of these things
22:37:07 <alise> And that is, after all, the point!
22:37:20 <zzo38> One way if you want altered state of mind, is, simply, practise.
22:37:35 <alise> MEDITATION: It's, like, totally wack.
22:37:57 <alise> AnMaster: no, the ballmer peak produces perfectly working, but unreadable code
22:38:11 <AnMaster> alise, doesn't it produce windows ME iirc?
22:38:14 <alise> whatever the analogue is for weed, it produces utterly incomprehensible, yet stunningly beautiful, elegant code that does nothing useful whatsoever
22:38:17 <AnMaster> alise, hm coding on meditation, that might be a nice ide
22:38:35 <alise> I think that would be ... difficult.
22:38:48 <nooga> it's possible to write code when slightly drunk, but the best ideas come to you when you're *slightly* stoned
22:39:00 <AnMaster> alise, and what about LSD? It produces utterly incomprehensible demos that fits in 4 kB and raytraces in realtime?
22:39:38 <AnMaster> it would be awesome if it did!
22:39:50 <alise> how can you use a computer when everything is melting?
22:39:55 <alise> don't be ridiculous
22:40:02 <AnMaster> alise, perhaps not that much lsd?
22:40:09 <nooga> i'd say it extends you consciousness
22:40:23 <alise> nooga: I'd say it just alters your state of mind. :P
22:40:27 <nooga> in a way that's really hard to express in human language
22:40:43 <zzo38> I don't use LSD, never plan to use LSD, don't recomend to other people to use LSD, but I won't stop someone from doing so if they really want to
22:40:44 <alise> No, it's easy. The words are "being slightly stoned".
22:41:11 <nooga> no, no, it was only a single experiment
22:41:14 <alise> I use LSD, don't plan to use LSD, recommend to other people to use LSD, and would stop someone from doing so.
22:41:20 <nooga> i don;t buy this stuff
22:41:24 <AnMaster> I don't recommend it either. Just saying that from what I heard it has less side effects than alcohol
22:41:39 <nooga> that is probably true
22:41:46 <zzo38> Well, I don't drink alcoholic either
22:41:55 <zzo38> And I don't plan to drink alcoholic
22:42:09 <nooga> I SMOKE EVIL CIGARETTES
22:42:10 <alise> STUPID FUCKING GTKSOURCEVIEW
22:42:23 <AnMaster> alise, why on earth are you using that...
22:42:26 <nooga> and i'm radioactive
22:42:35 <alise> AnMaster: because i'm writing an editor
22:42:39 <zzo38> I don't smoke. But I wouldn't like if someone else smoke near me because the smoke affect everyone
22:42:48 <AnMaster> alise, and? why gtksourceview for that
22:43:00 <alise> AnMaster: because pygtk is really easy when it's not breaking for no apparent reason
22:43:04 <alise> and when it does that's gtk's fault :P
22:43:21 <nooga> i don't exhale the smoke in other ppl general direction
22:43:26 <AnMaster> alise, so you are like import randall suddenly? ;P
22:43:37 <alise> AnMaster: that doesn't even make any sense!
22:43:50 <AnMaster> nooga, and don't stand just outside doors smoking?
22:43:58 <zzo38> You shouldn't smoke when you are near other people that tell you to stop smoking. If you want to smoke anyways go elsewhere
22:44:12 <nooga> ofc, ppl would have to walk through the cloud
22:44:17 <zzo38> Or, better, don't smoke at all
22:44:20 <nooga> it's unpleasant even for smokers
22:44:21 <AnMaster> nooga, that is the worst bit I can tell you. I have asthma so smokers just outside the university entrance are a pita
22:45:10 <nooga> it's not like heroin
22:45:47 <AnMaster> have fun with your cancer later on
22:45:57 <alise> hmm can you vaporise tobacco like cannabis?
22:46:00 <alise> that would be ... strange
22:46:20 <nooga> no, there is something called e-cigarette
22:46:32 <zzo38> What is e-cigarette?
22:46:36 <alise> oh yeah that thing
22:46:41 <nooga> and it vaporizes some solution of nicotin and flavour oils
22:46:58 <nooga> and it's, most probably, harmless
22:47:29 <nooga> also the 'smoke' smells good and it's not irritating to the environment
22:47:55 <nooga> but i don't like it ;|
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22:54:21 <alise> leaden can edit text reliably
22:54:42 <oklopol> cigarette smoke smells good
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22:55:35 <nooga> alise: what kind of editor are you writing?
22:55:48 <alise> nooga: a code editor, and something basically unlike anything else.
22:55:55 <alise> a more specific question may get a more specific answer :)
22:56:32 <nooga> for what language?
22:56:52 <alise> anything gtksourceview supports, but mainly the usual suspects: c, python, haskell
22:57:06 <alise> the syntax highlighting and basic editor controls are provided by gtksourceview; the rest is me.
22:57:17 <alise> (basic editing controls doesn't mean i won't add my own, ofc)
22:57:31 <alise> i'm going to have to code the indentation logic myself since gtksourceview can't do it
22:57:58 <alise> right now it opens, displays a hardcoded file, and automatically saves every single change to disk, and automatically reads any change made by another program
22:58:14 <alise> it has unlimited undo, scrolls, you can resize the window, it copies the last line's indent, and it highlights
22:58:30 <AnMaster> so if you undo, then do something new
22:58:37 <AnMaster> can you go back to the undone version
22:58:44 <alise> AnMaster: no; remember, vcs commits replace saves
22:58:54 <alise> so just pressing Ctrl+S can help your undo tree endeavours
22:58:55 <AnMaster> alise, tree undo is still very nice
22:58:58 <alise> with a sufficiently advanced VCS
22:59:05 <alise> AnMaster: well, i'll consider it, but i have undo done for me atm :)))
22:59:24 <alise> and if vcs commits are so easy i think they'll become instinctive enough that you don't need tree undo
22:59:36 <AnMaster> iirc both emacs and vim can have tree undo
22:59:41 * alise is editing leaden with itself, that's so daring
22:59:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, that sounds awesome yet impractical
22:59:47 <alise> AnMaster: with emacs it's an elisp extension though
22:59:58 <AnMaster> alise, probably. But then a lot of emacs is !
23:00:04 <alise> actually it's hideously irresponsible to edit this with the save-on-every-change feature when it doesn't also have the trivial-version-control feature
23:00:06 <oklopol> i'm not sure what it means
23:00:11 <alise> but it has unlimited undo (quite literally)
23:00:27 <AnMaster> alise, which VCS? I suggest darcs!
23:00:43 <alise> AnMaster: it'll probably support many (and decide which to use by seeing which has a directory nearby)
23:00:54 <alise> i use git right now, so that'll probably get in first
23:01:04 <AnMaster> alise, what will it do if it sees both .hg, .git, .bzr and .svn?
23:01:11 <alise> AnMaster: yell at you
23:01:21 <AnMaster> alise, nice. Will it use audio?
23:02:00 <alise> maybe it'll use a kernel exploit to take control of your whole system, replace the whole screen with an epileptic-flashing goatse, and blast white noise through your speakers while beeping your pc speaker if you have one
23:02:12 <alise> or, maybe it'll just say "You suck at version control; disabling auto-save mode."
23:03:12 <alise> AnMaster: i once added a repository's .git to the repository
23:03:32 <AnMaster> alise, him this doesn't ever become a stable loop
23:03:38 <AnMaster> I wonder if one could manufacture a stable loop
23:03:39 <alise> aw! my cursor synchronisation isn't working
23:03:43 <alise> i have this feature, you see
23:03:50 <alise> when someone else modifies the file from underneath you
23:03:56 <alise> it'll keep your cursor as close as possible to where it was
23:04:03 <alise> well, not textually, not that advanced
23:04:06 <alise> but same offset from start of file
23:04:07 <AnMaster> alise, could one manufacture a stable loop out of two VCS
23:04:09 <alise> so you should be in the same sort of vicinity
23:04:33 <alise> it's ... quite liberating to not have to press save
23:04:33 <AnMaster> alise, you couldn't do it by normal means, but if one allows some sort of compression like "same as that other file" then it should be possible
23:04:35 <alise> kinda weird, though
23:04:39 <alise> i keep trying to hit ctrl+s instinctively
23:05:01 <AnMaster> alise, now I feel an urge for a vcs quine!
23:05:25 <AnMaster> it contains a dir r, which contains a repo without a working tree
23:05:31 <alise> it's keeping the position, but scrolling up, bizarrely
23:05:43 <AnMaster> it would contain a directory r
23:05:46 <olsner> git repo where you can check out a git repo containing the first git repo? nice :)
23:06:10 <AnMaster> olsner, doesn't really matter which one. It is awesome with any
23:06:33 <AnMaster> obviously you can't have working trees all the way down
23:07:28 <alise> wish i could set line height
23:07:34 <alise> needs to be a bit bigger to be comfortable
23:08:14 <AnMaster> alise, are you using monospace?
23:08:21 <alise> hmm, the scrolled view is still resetting
23:08:33 <alise> that concession to the past, at least, is made :P
23:08:54 <AnMaster> alise, um, most source would be annoying to edit without monospace
23:08:59 <AnMaster> sure there is apple script but meh
23:09:09 <alise> Yeah, but it's not like I'm not already breaking 100 conventions here :P
23:09:22 <alise> with elastic tabstops you could easily use proportional
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23:09:32 <alise> and smalltalk uses proportional :P
23:09:37 <AnMaster> alise, and no one else could easily edit the code
23:09:52 <alise> erm, they serialise to regular tabs afaik
23:10:17 <AnMaster> alise, also I doubt every smalltalk does that
23:10:24 <AnMaster> alise, isn't there one that uses files for the source
23:10:25 <alise> every smalltalk derived from the original
23:10:35 <alise> yeah, but gnu smalltalk is smalltalk-the-language, not smalltalk-the-smalltalk
23:10:51 <alise> code looks quite nice in Droid Serif 12...
23:10:53 <alise> you got me experimenting :P
23:11:08 <alise> don't talk small, talk big
23:11:24 <AnMaster> alise, there totally needs to be an esolang called bigtalk
23:12:05 <alise> paradigm: message-passing messages
23:12:07 <alise> the only things are messages
23:12:11 <alise> messages pass messages to other messages
23:12:37 <alise> god leaden is like the best text editor ever already
23:12:44 <alise> even though you have to edit the source code to open a different file
23:12:56 <alise> and it only supports python highlighting
23:13:00 <alise> and doesn't autoindent, and has no ui
23:13:14 <alise> self.scrolled_view.set_hadjustment(hadjustment)
23:13:14 <alise> self.scrolled_view.set_vadjustment(vadjustment)
23:13:16 <alise> why isn't this working...
23:13:20 <alise> AnMaster: no, and it never will :P
23:13:44 <AnMaster> alise, you know, I might actually make a fork just to do that if it gets anywhere
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23:14:07 <alise> no printf in python :P
23:14:21 <AnMaster> but printf debugging is a specific term
23:14:38 <AnMaster> which applies to languages where it is called something else
23:14:56 <AnMaster> alise, I would say printf debugging for erlang too. even though technically it would be erlang:display or io:format
23:15:29 <nooga> in this semester i was teaching C
23:15:51 <nooga> and what i noticed is that students don't get the idea of pointers and structures and stuff
23:16:26 <nooga> somehow they're weak at visualising this stuff
23:16:32 <alise> wtf, evrything points to it working
23:18:04 <olsner> you're not looking hard enough for errors, obviously
23:18:09 <nooga> and i thought it would be cool to write an interpreter of reasonable subset of C together with nice, small IDE that would visualize the execution process, evaluation of expressions and all this stuff
23:18:32 <alise> olsner: i've looked pretty damn hard
23:18:34 <alise> i think this is gtk being wonky
23:19:01 <nooga> it would highlight fragments of code in runtime and show objects in memory as boxes connected with pointers (arrows)
23:19:09 <alise> http://pastie.org/1030513.txt?key=60u3wyfrcl5be6yl2ie4g ;; it's in read_file; the two print statements show that the scrollbar is being restored correctly, yet it is still scrolled to the top of the window
23:19:11 <alise> this makes no sense
23:19:13 <nooga> and everything would be interactive and easy to use
23:19:21 <nooga> but i'm too lazy to wrote such thing
23:19:28 <alise> ah, wait, the editor thing does its own scrolling too
23:19:30 <alise> maybe that'll fuck it up
23:20:44 <alise> find me something easier for this
23:21:20 <nooga> AFAIR dealing with gtk in ruby wasn't pleasant :|
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23:27:54 <alise> back in ~20-30mins
23:32:47 <AnMaster> <nooga> and what i noticed is that students don't get the idea of pointers and structures and stuff
23:32:48 <AnMaster> <nooga> somehow they're weak at visualising this stuff
23:33:12 <AnMaster> the C teacher I had spent a lot of time on it drawing on the whiteboard. I knew C since before of course
23:33:24 <AnMaster> so I thought it was maybe too much
23:33:38 <olsner> it's trivial if you just start with the actual low-level memory stuff rather than attempt to fluff it up with boxes and arrows
23:34:51 <AnMaster> olsner, you knew it was going to be boxes and arrows? rather than circles and arrows for example?
23:35:14 <olsner> always boxes, you need to put stuff in them later on
23:35:22 <olsner> you put stuff in boxes, not in circles
23:35:30 <AnMaster> olsner, but you put stuff in circles in state diagrams!
23:35:44 <olsner> no, those circles are merely labeled
23:42:14 <nooga> so it would provide 2 views
23:44:40 <AnMaster> nooga, what are you talking about?
23:47:02 <olsner> http://www.vgtv.no/?id=31144 :D
23:49:26 <AnMaster> olsner, I can't parse the Norwegian
23:49:41 <AnMaster> olsner, and why is there a huge black box there
23:49:50 <olsner> the black box is the video containing the funny
23:50:14 * AnMaster looks if he can extract the *.flv
23:51:16 <olsner> I think you're overdoing it
23:51:28 <AnMaster> olsner, they dropped flash for amd64 again
23:51:41 <AnMaster> olsner, there is absolutely nothing I can do
23:51:44 <olsner> your browser can't run 32-bit plugins on 64-bit?
23:52:03 <olsner> pretty sure I actually have 32-bit flash on my 64-bit system
23:52:04 <AnMaster> olsner, it can't run security risks either. It is too paranoid for that.
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23:58:30 <nooga> AnMaster: about my idea of visual debugger for dummies
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00:01:12 <nooga> i described it few minutes ago
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00:02:15 <nooga> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.04 15:18:09
00:02:53 <nooga> it would show how memory looks in two ways
00:03:10 <nooga> one - 1d array of addressed cells
00:03:20 <nooga> and second - boxes with arrows
00:03:32 <AnMaster> nooga, and what if I pass you a void* ?
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00:03:47 <nooga> ah, details details ;f
00:04:04 <AnMaster> nooga, or what if I pass you a intptr_t
00:04:24 <AnMaster> that one can reasonably be expected to not be quite what it seems like
00:04:35 <AnMaster> nooga, oh also function pointers should be fun
00:04:57 <nooga> this would be for basic education
00:05:08 <nooga> they don't have a clue that function pointers exist :D
00:06:06 <nooga> i was talking about simple subset of C that has structures and pointers
00:06:16 <nooga> and some basic types
00:06:20 <nooga> to explain the idea
00:07:10 <AnMaster> (note: this is a bad idea in general, use unions and rely on a slightly more reliable non-standard conforming behaviour
00:07:34 <AnMaster> at least that way the alias analysis won't end up all confused
00:09:17 <AnMaster> nooga, C without all these kind of strange corners and hacks would be no fun at all
00:10:03 <nooga> if they get the general idea they are able to understand these hacks in the real C
00:11:26 <AnMaster> nooga, whiteboard. Try it. I think it worked on the other students
00:12:33 <nooga> but i would like to give them a toy so that they would be able to experiment at home
00:13:28 <AnMaster> nooga, also if they are using windows shit: every university seems to have MSDNAA
00:13:58 <AnMaster> heck I have MSDNAA through university
00:14:19 <nooga> but neither gcc nor msvc EXPLAIN what happens during the execution
00:15:03 <nooga> gdb is extremely confusing for newbies
00:15:14 <AnMaster> more like can be threatened to tell you
00:15:43 <AnMaster> nooga, iirc the msvc debugger was very graphical and such
00:16:00 <nooga> but it's not enough
00:16:08 <AnMaster> nooga, yeah MSVC doesn't do C99
00:18:41 <AnMaster> lvl 10 human true neutral fighter. Multiclassing with some class able to cast magic
00:21:47 <nooga> i played that few years ago
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00:22:25 <AnMaster> nooga, any hints on multiclassing?
00:23:32 <nooga> nah, i don't remember anything
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00:58:11 <nooga> http://pastie.org/1030623
01:00:15 <nooga> actually it was a first test
01:00:26 <nooga> of my ultimate stupidness machine
01:05:00 <nooga> no, actually it's fretty useful atm
01:08:48 <nooga> huge progress was made
01:11:41 <AnMaster> you know, a large percentage of figures in books, games, movies and so on, can be nicely put into one of the classical D&D alignments
01:11:56 <AnMaster> while very few "real-world" persons can
01:12:09 <AnMaster> nooga, alise: ever noticed that?
01:12:52 <AnMaster> alise, this means we are rather bad at inventing realistic stories
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01:13:21 <olsner> I think stories are unrealistic for a reason, yeah
01:13:51 <AnMaster> but alise is _definitely_ some chaotic alignment
01:14:35 <AnMaster> nooga, you... I couldn't put an alignment on
01:15:39 <AnMaster> personally I always liked playing true neutral in games where you can select that. Though that doesn't mean I am true neutral myself
01:15:44 <olsner> maybe he's ... not human?
01:16:14 <AnMaster> olsner, iirc non-sapient beings in D&D are true neutral?
01:16:50 <olsner> non-human != non-sapient ... but of course D&D includes non-human species anyways, like elves and stuff (right?)
01:17:15 <AnMaster> olsner, and they can have alignment afaik
01:18:02 <olsner> it is bedtime here too, but I refuse to sleep instead of watching doctor who
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01:21:47 <alise> nooga is chaotic good
01:21:50 <alise> AnMaster is boring preist
01:22:59 <alise> i think most people here are chaotic
01:23:42 <alise> ais523 is lawful good, but there's some chaotic in him too...
01:23:44 <olsner> I am not familiar with these alignments - what am I?
01:23:51 <alise> he's lawful good but not a goody-gooder
01:23:54 <alise> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_&_Dragons%29
01:24:00 <alise> {lawful,neutral,chaotic} {good,neutral,evil}
01:24:10 <alise> lawful good = obvious
01:24:11 <pikhq> It must be said: lawful good != lawful stupid.
01:24:18 <alise> lawful neutral = gray hat
01:24:36 <alise> neutral good = um... this one doesn't make so much sense
01:24:48 <AnMaster> alise, so I'm true neutral then?
01:24:50 <alise> neutral evil = legally grey, morally black
01:25:01 <alise> chaotic good = oklopol
01:25:12 <alise> chaotic neutral = barbarian :P
01:25:19 <alise> chaotic evil = the joker
01:25:35 <AnMaster> alise, but you need examples for all
01:25:48 <alise> eh, good enough to explain :P
01:25:57 <AnMaster> alise, yes but I want an example for neutral evil
01:26:35 <AnMaster> olsner, and I can't classify you, don't know you well enough
01:26:39 <pikhq> Lawful good = Superman, Chaotic good = Batman.
01:26:43 <alise> neutral evil is, literally, someone who has a regular respect for the law... could steal if they had a really, really good reason to
01:26:49 <alise> but deep down they're evil
01:26:52 <alise> it's not a very realistic class
01:27:02 <alise> People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
01:27:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, chaotic good = robin hood
01:27:04 <alise> neutral is basically "normal person"
01:27:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think that one is even better
01:27:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Another good example.
01:27:15 <alise> there aren't many actual altruists who would make sacrifices
01:27:18 <olsner> I think I'm neutral/lawful good
01:27:19 <alise> chaotic is a bad name, really
01:27:28 <alise> olsner: you probably aren't good
01:27:35 <alise> Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
01:27:35 <alise> Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.
01:27:35 <alise> People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
01:27:51 <alise> it's just that good is almost never found outside of fiction
01:27:54 <alise> the good side of neutral, yes
01:27:59 <alise> good? ais523 is the only example i've seen
01:28:02 <AnMaster> alise, I definitely feel like a true neutral a lot of the time
01:28:04 <alise> per those definitions
01:28:24 <alise> I'm definitely chaotic, I don't really care about the law much at all
01:28:27 <AnMaster> I agree ais is definitely lawful good
01:28:33 <alise> only what i consider moral
01:28:40 <olsner> right, maybe rather neutral than good
01:28:40 <AnMaster> alise, yes you are chaotic in every sense of the word
01:28:41 <alise> I'd like to be chaotic good, but I'm probably chaotic neutral
01:28:49 <AnMaster> alise, chaotic neutral *definitely*
01:28:56 <alise> you said chaotic good before :P
01:29:15 <alise> i dunno, batman may be closer to chaotic neutral
01:29:18 <alise> he can be pretty vicious
01:29:24 <AnMaster> alise, or as tv tropes put it: totally unpredictable lunatic
01:29:35 <SgeoN1> I'd like to be Chaotic Good, hut I'm more Lawful Neutral
01:29:36 <alise> also the adam west batman was ... not chaotic
01:29:53 <SgeoN1> Well, maybe "like to be" is the wrong phrase
01:29:55 <alise> AnMaster: I think I lean towards the good side, though
01:30:01 <alise> I don't ever try to hurt someone
01:30:04 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29
01:30:07 <alise> the thing that made batman famous
01:30:17 <alise> http://www.thedarkknight.matthewclose.co.uk/AdamwestBatman.jpg
01:30:36 <alise> Slereah highlights 'adam west'
01:30:57 <pikhq> alise: Sadly, "ham" is not an alignment.
01:31:04 <Slereah> I think about Batman all day long
01:31:12 <alise> Slereah: What about the night????
01:31:26 <AnMaster> alise, so what is your alignment?
01:31:34 <alise> wow, TeX syntax is very unsuited to keyword arguments
01:31:46 <alise> Slereah is ... hmm
01:32:00 <AnMaster> alise, oerjan is chaotic I think
01:32:00 <alise> Can't say for sure
01:32:06 <alise> Slereah doesn't seem chaotic, not really
01:32:13 <alise> he might be a dirty pirate but...
01:32:31 <alise> oerjan isn't chaotic, when has oerjan ever broken the law?
01:32:37 <alise> he's cackly, yes, but that's just irc :P
01:32:47 <alise> i'd call oerjan another true neutral
01:32:54 <alise> "In the Complete Scoundrel sourcebook Batman, Dick Tracy and Indiana Jones are cited as examples of lawful good characters."
01:32:59 <alise> clearly an adam west watcher
01:33:03 <Slereah> http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg
01:33:12 <AnMaster> alise, yet you said true neutral was boring. You never considered oerjan boring?
01:33:25 <alise> "Examples of Neutral Good characters include Zorro, and Spider-Man."
01:33:30 <alise> spider-man is less lawful than batman?
01:33:32 <alise> this page is an abomination
01:34:02 <Slereah> Batman is of every alignment
01:34:03 <AnMaster> <Slereah> http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg <- hah
01:35:06 <alise> moriarty is badass
01:35:42 <alise> "Who else would kick a man for eating ice cream?" XD
01:36:24 <alise> "Lara Croft, Lucy Westenra from Dracula and Han Solo in his early Star Wars appearance are neutral."
01:36:46 <AnMaster> I agree about Han Solo in the first half of the first movie
01:37:26 <AnMaster> alise, he is a mercenary basically. They tend to be neutral, possibly even true neutral
01:37:47 <alise> chaotic evil is awesome
01:38:02 <AnMaster> alise, too destructive for my taste
01:38:09 <alise> chaotic good is a bit rubbish, it's just antihero
01:38:12 <alise> and antihero is way too overdone
01:38:12 <AnMaster> alise, neutral evil however is awesome
01:38:17 <Slereah> Here, have this handy map : http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Divers9/The_Planescape_Multiverse_by_zen79.jpg
01:38:19 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, but chaotic evil is the Joker
01:38:22 <alise> chaotic evil destroys the universe
01:38:28 <AnMaster> alise, chaotic good is hero as well. Robin Hood for example
01:39:02 <AnMaster> alise, I would say anti-hero is in some neutral
01:39:07 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Detective-33-Bat.png "...Literally!"
01:41:47 <AnMaster> oh god, I found "dungeons and lolcats" when googling -_-
01:42:01 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/Batbed.png <-- not homoerotic whatsoever. Nope.
01:42:27 <AnMaster> Slereah, it isn't even very good
01:42:31 <Slereah> Every adoptive parent sleep with their orphans, doncha know?
01:44:17 <AnMaster> Slereah, IMO it is piss poor, but see http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/ if you are really interested
01:44:56 <Slereah> Lolcats became pisspoor a long time ago.
01:45:15 <alise> It's not a lolcat, it's a LoLcat
01:45:25 <alise> http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/5_true_neutral.jpg How is that true neutral at all?
01:47:18 * alise wonders what to add to leaden. Actual UI, perhaps?!?!
01:47:28 <alise> Indentation? Oh, the possibilities.
01:48:18 <alise> indent.py gets its own file because indentation logic is pretty damn complex.
01:48:39 <alise> The question is, how many lines before of context do you need to determine the next line's indentation...
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01:49:21 <AnMaster> this image was good though (not lolcats but still awesome): http://vampjac.com/lj/humor/gygax/multiclassing.jpg
01:49:37 <alise> man, that would have made lotr like 50 times better.
01:49:39 <olsner> alise: omg are you writing your editor in python?
01:50:26 <alise> olsner: is that a sin? I don't like Python, but I can't think of anything else that it'd be nice and easy to use gtk from and do stuff like this.
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01:50:52 <alise> AnMaster: "Fuck Mordor... I have a nuclear bomb and a large swath of open desert. You in?"
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01:51:49 <Slereah> AnMaster : Good guy, bad guy, I'm the one with a gun
01:53:21 <olsner> alise: if you don't like it, I would say that it is indeed might be a sin
01:53:53 <alise> olsner: Why did you say it?
01:54:22 <olsner> because I don't like python either
01:55:51 <alise> olsner: how would you write a short little program that uses gtk?
01:57:04 <olsner> good question... I have only used any substantial amounts of gtk from C
01:59:11 <alise> olsner: and, as you know, that is painful
01:59:42 <olsner> but won't that part be exactly as painful from python, with the added pain of python itself?
02:00:11 <AnMaster> alise, but python's GC is really wtf
02:01:07 <alise> makes c ten times more painful
02:01:12 <alise> olsner: no, because python actually has an object system
02:01:21 <alise> and pygtk hides gobject inside it
02:02:05 <olsner> hmm, okay, maybe python is ... appropriate for this case
02:02:39 <alise> it's not all that painful as long as you don't try and do anything clever :P
02:06:00 <alise> olsner: i basically treat it as a cleaned up pascal that calls namespaces "classes"
02:06:24 <alise> and has weird structure initialisation syntax
02:06:39 <olsner> aha! maybe that's just the problem... trying to be smart in python doesn't work, so you have to keep it down to python's level
02:06:48 <pikhq> Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax.
02:07:35 <alise> pikhq: yeah, every namespace contains one and only one structure
02:07:42 <alise> you initialise the structure by function-calling the namespace
02:07:55 <olsner> hmm... very much time for bed now, work starts in <7h
02:08:00 <alise> and then functions in the namespace that take the structure can be called with the syntax:
02:08:05 <pikhq> I really, really don't get why Python doesn't do TCO.
02:08:07 <alise> namespace.bar(foo)
02:08:17 <alise> olsner: basically you have to put yourself in guido's shoes
02:08:19 <alise> and it works perfectly
02:08:29 <alise> python is basically an ffi with control structures :P
02:08:54 <alise> in fact, i have only one if statement in my entire editor
02:09:07 <alise> quite an achievement
02:09:13 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax. <-- you mean the __init__ ?
02:09:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: ARGH ARGH ARGH
02:09:28 <olsner> yeah, python code usually ends up quite loopy
02:09:31 <pikhq> I hate Python's use of underscores.
02:09:50 <alise> AnMaster: if you treat classes as namespaces with one structure in them
02:09:57 <pikhq> It makes the C code in me feel like there's a lot of almost-guaranteed-to-break magic going on.
02:09:58 <alise> then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P
02:10:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, but fuck newlib headers then. I swear I saw a tripple-underscore somewhere there
02:10:08 <alise> pikhq: You have C code in you?
02:11:03 * alise writes a very simple python indentation function
02:11:32 * alise continues editing leaden in leaden
02:12:01 <olsner> ah, so it's already the editor equivalent of a self-hosting compiler
02:12:24 <alise> olsner: yeah, it has not a single ui element other than an editor window opened to a preset source file and a scrollbar
02:12:39 <alise> that editor (just a gtk sourceview) is set to auto-indent (dumbly; just repeating the last line's indentation), and syntax highlight
02:12:54 <alise> it automatically saves the file to disk on every keypress (this is a feature) and automatically reloads the file on any outside change
02:13:12 <alise> it has unlimited undo.
02:13:56 <olsner> but not yet VCS:ed undo?
02:14:06 <alise> olsner: the plan is that Ctrl+S is a vcs commit
02:14:15 <alise> and saving is completely automatic
02:14:28 <alise> rationale: i can never make myself use vcses, but saving is easy, so just make a vcs the save functionality
02:14:31 <alise> tada, versioned filesystem
02:14:43 <olsner> anyway, I shall finally go and sleep now
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02:23:33 <AnMaster> <alise> then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P <-- you mean the __init__ right?
02:23:45 <alise> if we treat "class Foo(object):"
02:23:48 <alise> as defining a namespace Foo
02:23:54 <alise> containing one unnamed structure
02:24:05 <alise> (which is how I code python because it lets you treat it as a strange, cleaned-up pascal with nice libraries)
02:24:09 <alise> (instead of a godawful language)
02:24:12 <alise> then Foo() is a really weird syntax
02:24:14 <AnMaster> I'm not sure I agree a class is a namespace. I thought python did modules as namespaces
02:24:17 <alise> new Foo.struct, yes
02:24:23 <alise> AnMaster: it's about how you think about it
02:24:29 <alise> if you treat python classes as /classes/, it's the worst OOP ever
02:24:40 <AnMaster> alise, namespaces don't tend to have a self pointer
02:24:44 <alise> if you treat them as namespaces that are also the only way to define structures, and the structure definition is somehow implicit
02:24:46 <alise> it all makes more sense
02:24:48 <alise> AnMaster: they don't
02:24:55 <alise> __init__ is just a special namespace method, given a newly-created structure
02:24:58 <alise> (often called "self")
02:25:01 <alise> it then sets up this structure
02:25:05 <alise> all the rest are just functions taking that structure
02:25:14 <alise> usually you call the structure parameter "self" but that's not required
02:25:18 <alise> there's also some weird sugar
02:25:24 <alise> structure.foo() is namespace_of_structure.foo(structure)
02:25:26 <alise> how weird is that?
02:25:29 <alise> (note: all of this is actually true)
02:25:40 <alise> (apart from literally being namespaces)
02:25:42 <AnMaster> alise, if you consider it, C++ actually do it something like that too
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02:25:53 <alise> well yes, but python has it explicit
02:26:02 <alise> which lets you just treat it as a really strange language where structures are implicit
02:26:02 <AnMaster> alise, yes that is an important difference
02:26:14 <alise> it actually works really well, using classes for namespaces
02:26:23 <alise> like, it's how you're supposed to do python, rather than actually separating concerns
02:28:00 <alise> i /think/ i just wrote a tab handler
02:28:06 <alise> File "leaden.py", line 66
02:28:07 <alise> if at start of line:
02:28:07 <alise> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
02:28:32 <AnMaster> alise, "at start of line" is only valid in "Plain English" I bet
02:31:06 <alise> Holy Fucking Shit, it WORKS!
02:32:59 <zzo38> I don't really like everything about Python, but I think the way that classes work is not too bad
02:34:00 <AnMaster> the way they work on the C side...
02:34:04 <zzo38> Here is a PNG file of the example Icochash file that I posted before: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/icochash.png
02:34:13 <AnMaster> alise, ever looked at python internals on the C side?
02:34:34 <alise> AnMaster: i know a bit about them
02:34:35 <AnMaster> zzo38, make it render with tex. will look way nicer
02:34:36 <zzo38> AnMaster: I certainly didn't. I only programmed some card games in Python, that's about it
02:34:49 <alise> AnMaster: render a living form with TeX?
02:34:52 <alise> presumably it's computerised
02:34:54 <alise> it looks like a webpage to me
02:35:00 <alise> rendered in some textual browser or perhaps vonkeror
02:35:02 <zzo38> AnMaster: I might make it render with TeX some day later. It would be nicer for sure
02:35:12 <AnMaster> alise, but it looks like a bitmap font
02:35:20 <alise> AnMaster: well i imagine zzo38 uses a bitmap font.
02:35:31 <alise> he does use windows after all, windowsers prior to vista tended to
02:35:34 <alise> at least at small sizes
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02:35:56 <zzo38> The picture I have is rendered using icochash_img using the default settings. It does support TTF and PostScript fonts as well.
02:36:15 <zzo38> Although I have Windows, I will later have Linux instead
02:36:45 <zzo38> AnMaster: No, but that is irrelevant. When I get a new computer I will put Linux.
02:37:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, you know about colinux though?
02:38:05 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes I know some things about it
02:38:38 <zzo38> When I get new computer I will put Linux and write a Linux distribution.
02:39:13 <zzo38> AnMaster: No I can't dual boot I have server programs running on my computer
02:40:47 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, the bitmap font thing was really, really bad with Japanese...
02:40:59 <pikhq> Japanese looks eye-clawingly bad with bitmap fonts.
02:41:31 <alise> who wants to debug my editor, eh, eh!
02:41:56 <zzo38> Where is the codes?
02:42:01 <pikhq> http://www.wazu.jp/gallery/samples/MSMincho__Japanese.gif See that?
02:43:25 <zzo38> icochash_img just renders the completed forms as .png file, it won't edit the forms. To edit the data on the forms you need to edit the .chs file with a text editor.
02:43:58 <zzo38> Icochash has a similarity to Icoruma in that they both use one file for common functions and then separate files to render and format in different ways.
02:44:15 <alise> pikhq: You, you want to debug my text editor!
02:44:52 <alise> ...Wait, what the FUCK/
02:46:06 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I will employ you in happiness if you fix my indentation routines :P
02:46:14 <alise> They work, just... not very well.
02:46:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, so what did the old 8-bit Japanese games use?
02:47:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: English or *just katakana*.
02:47:24 <alise> katakana is what japanese uses to romanise
02:47:30 <alise> we romanise stuff and the like
02:47:34 <alise> and steal lonewords
02:47:35 <pikhq> Katakana is the syllabary used primarily for foreign words.
02:48:14 <pikhq> It's also used for emphasis, to note that you're writing out the on'yomi (Chinese reading) of some character, or to sound robotic.
02:48:31 <pikhq> The last part comes because old computers and video game systems only used katakana.
02:49:08 <pikhq> The reason for *this* is because it's the easiest to render on limited graphics.
02:49:48 <alise> ...Say, there's no way to keep state in CPP, right? Like, at all?
02:49:49 <pikhq> コレ ハ カタカナ デス。 カンタンニ ヨメル、 ネ？
02:49:55 <alise> Between macro invocations. Relying on C behaviour is accepted.
02:50:04 <alise> Specifically, I'm doing a coroutine/finite state machine thing.
02:50:09 <alise> So I need a duff's device thing.
02:50:11 <pikhq> alise: Absolutely none at all.
02:50:13 <alise> I want it so that you can write
02:50:22 <alise> state++; return x; case (LAST_CASE_WE_MADE)+1:
02:50:32 <alise> pikhq: Then how does that tiny little "threads" library do it?
02:50:40 <zzo38> There are programs that do somewhat similar things as Icochash, such as PCGEN, but other programs have bad designs in my opinion, also Icochash is not quite the same thing, it is a bit different
02:51:16 <pikhq> alise: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html
02:51:16 <alise> pikhq: Can you say "case var:"?
02:51:21 <alise> pikhq: I know, but that has an extra param.
02:51:33 <alise> pikhq: You can say "case var:", can't you? But it'll be the value of var at the start of the switch, right?
02:51:55 <pikhq> No, it doesn't have an extra param.
02:52:00 <alise> #define crReturn(i,x) do { state=i; return x; case i:; } while (0)
02:52:08 <pikhq> Look further down.
02:52:14 <pikhq> It cheats by using the __LINE__ macro.
02:52:35 <alise> What about that thing by the contiki guy?
02:52:39 <alise> cheater99: Good as in playing them?
02:52:49 <alise> cheater99: No, I'm shit. But I enjoy it. Why?
02:52:59 <pikhq> It works so long as you don't stick multiple crReturns on a line.
02:53:07 <cheater99> i dare you to complete this one: http://www.indiegames.com/features/index.php?c=ex&y=2009&gid=20
02:53:07 <pikhq> alise: Oh, that stuff?
02:53:13 <alise> pikhq: Isn't there a __CHAR__?
02:53:21 <alise> Also, can you find that thread impl? I've been unable to.
02:54:11 <pikhq> http://www.sics.se/~adam/pt/
02:54:21 <pikhq> Protothreads, as used in Contiki
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02:56:47 <alise> #define LC_SET(s) s = __LINE__; case __LINE__:
02:56:58 <alise> Oh, you can use labels as values for it too.
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02:57:38 <alise> still uses __LINE__, though
02:58:13 <alise> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Standard-Predefined-Macros.html
02:58:15 <alise> Nothing more fine-grained.
02:59:29 <alise> #define fsm static int _s=0;switch(s){case 0:
02:59:29 <alise> #define yield(x) do{state=__LINE__;return(x);case __LINE__:}while(0)
03:02:21 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works.
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03:06:44 <zzo38> Now it means it doesn't work if you put yield(x) twice in one line
03:11:19 <alise> pikhq: So, I just implemented coroutine-threads in C.
03:13:38 * Sgeo decides that IRCing on the go may not be that easy
03:14:07 <Sgeo> Which was pretty much my main reason for disparaging iOS4. Oh, actually, let me ask someone with experience: alise, can you multitask an IRC client with iOS4?
03:14:34 <alise> I haven't used iOS; still on iPhone OS 3. I thought iOS could multitask anything?
03:14:46 <alise> What with its high-falutin' high-falutinness.
03:15:03 <Sgeo> alise, I thought there were 7 multitask APIs or something?
03:15:18 <alise> My answer: probably.
03:15:22 <alise> My other answer: don't buy an iPhone.
03:15:40 <Sgeo> Whenever I mention AT&T, people ask why I didn't just get an iPhone
03:15:43 <pikhq> alise: Low-level tricks do help with that, yeah.
03:16:11 <alise> pikhq: Yeah -- low level tricks like static variables and switch.
03:16:21 <alise> Sgeo: Well, they're partially right, but not for the reason of an iPhone.
03:16:25 <alise> The reason is that AT&T is shit.
03:16:30 <alise> Also, stop fucking caring what other people think already.
03:16:52 <Sgeo> Which is more likely: That, over time, Android gets an iPhone level of polish, or, that over time, Apple eases up on its nuttiness?
03:17:01 <Sgeo> alise, I think I care what you think a bit too much
03:17:06 <alise> Apple have been getting more nutty, not less.
03:17:11 <alise> Sgeo: You care what others think, too.
03:17:20 <alise> At least I try and provide justification to believe what I say :P
03:21:19 <alise> http://www.acooke.org/lepl/ ~ from our favourite andrew cooke in the universe
03:21:43 * Sgeo fantasizes about Android with Apple-like polish
03:21:53 <alise> Sgeo: there are cracks in the polish.
03:21:58 <alise> believe me. i've used it since 2007.
03:22:05 <alise> that's three years of using it.
03:22:26 <alise> there is a reason i've gone from a devoted apple user to an arch linux user
03:22:42 <alise> and it's that one, the polish is mostly superficial: sure, it's pretty and the animations glide, but the user interfaces do not fit together
03:22:57 <alise> apple used to do UI design; now they do graphic design, and just avoid even creating a UI
03:23:00 <pikhq> alise: C switch is a low-level trick. :)
03:23:07 <alise> yes, Sgeo, when pressing around it will all fade and slide
03:23:14 <alise> but it won't be smooth to use, it won't be polished to operate
03:24:04 <Sgeo> That's pretty much how I feel about Android's BACK button
03:24:15 <alise> Sgeo: the iPhone doesn't have a back button.
03:24:32 <Sgeo> No back button may be better than an inconsistant one
03:24:40 <alise> so don't press it.
03:25:00 <alise> Believe me, the iPhone may be prettier, but the user experience is NOT as polished as you think: and it certainly isn't good enough to support the tyranny.
03:25:19 <alise> Android is flawed, but so is the iPhone; Android wins by virtue of the iPhone being run by a megalomaniacal dictator.
03:26:24 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that my reasons for using Windows may be similar to a reason to get the iPhone
03:26:39 <Sgeo> Except that, in the case of Windows, there were already specific programs that I wanted to run, that put me over the edge
03:26:45 <Sgeo> With the iPhone, no such thing
03:27:49 * Sgeo ponders py2exe
03:28:16 <Sgeo> "If py2exe fixes a broken program, then that's probably a bug in py2exe that needs to be fixed!"
03:28:33 <Sgeo> alise, you can't seriously have off tomorrow, can you?
03:28:48 <alise> Sgeo: No; why would you think that?
03:28:56 <Sgeo> alise, you're still up.
03:30:38 <Sgeo> Ah, crud, py2exe wants to require users to have a dll
03:30:53 <alise> I'll go to bed soon, I swear.
03:38:49 <alise> what the fuck is that.
03:40:15 <alise> i need to go to bed, stop talking
03:59:41 <cheater99> alise: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-dfsg-5.1/+bug/451801
03:59:51 <cheater99> it seems glasgow isn't the only thing that canonic fucked up
03:59:57 <alise> SHUT THE FUCK UP I HAVE TO BE UP AT 9:30
04:02:57 <cheater99> why are you not in bed then, little thing?
04:03:36 * Sgeo slaps cheater99
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04:53:40 <zzo38> Why don't you play this game instead? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
04:54:35 <zzo38> * Don't just do everything without thinking about it at first, or else you will get stuck
04:55:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, what does one play it with on x86_64 linux
04:55:26 <AnMaster> zzo38, also did you know linux has a 91% market share?
04:55:32 <zzo38> AnMaster: If you are willing to compile the source yourself: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip
04:56:45 <zzo38> If you want compiled binaries: http://vault.digitalmzx.net/show.php?id=1675 (not recomended because of various bugs and missing features)
04:56:57 <zzo38> Genre is just multiple things. It is not a arcade-style game
04:57:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, puzzle? that is out too
04:57:13 <AnMaster> about all I could like is RPG atm
04:57:42 <zzo38> It does have some puzzles. But it does not consist entirely of puzzles
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05:45:40 <zzo38> You cannot win this game without *all* of these hints:
05:45:50 <zzo38> * Save the game state often, and in multiple files.
05:45:57 <zzo38> * Don't just do everything without thinking about it at first, or else you will get stuck
05:46:16 <zzo38> * Don't just shoot everything and everyone, or else you will run out of ammunition and you won't get a very good score
05:47:16 <zzo38> * Pay attention to the game, and perhaps look at the source code for MegaZeux for help about what some objects means?
05:47:53 <zzo38> * Use the money effectively.
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05:48:29 <zzo38> * The goal is to find the purple keys
05:49:18 <zzo38> * Don't run into everything that you can get hurt, or else you will run out of health points
05:50:26 <zzo38> * Some of the puzzles are confusing so please make sure you know what something means!
05:51:14 <zzo38> * At the end of the game you will find BIG_MONSTER
05:51:53 <zzo38> And, then, there is also a sequel to this game but I am not finished making the sequel game yet.
06:09:22 <zzo38> Which game do you prefer, the first one, or the sequel game?
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11:56:41 <augur> i just had the taste of butane in my mouth
11:59:41 <Ilari> Butane? Isn't that gas in room temperature?
12:00:00 <augur> it was a misinterpretation
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14:14:41 <AnMaster> augur, how do you even know the taste of butane?
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14:32:54 <augur> AnMaster: what most people call taste is really just smell.
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15:35:34 <oklopol> smell doesn't affect taste in any way
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16:52:11 <AnMaster> <augur> AnMaster: what most people call taste is really just smell. <-- oh so you meant smell then
16:59:03 <oklopol> the world will never tire of ti
17:02:33 <zzo38> Do you like my game?
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17:33:45 <zzo38> Do you like my game? Did you try this game? (See previous log for hints)
17:40:54 <cheater99> is alise holed up for the week again
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17:45:16 <oerjan> cheater99: yes, like the 16 billion previous times you asked
17:45:45 <oerjan> (he sometimes comes on in the evening as ehirdiphone, though)
17:45:55 -!- nooga has joined.
17:46:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is your alignment?
17:47:04 * oerjan notices he's grumpy and should eat something
17:47:56 <Ilari> You can't instantiate "something" with anything. :->
17:47:57 <oerjan> i noticed y'all seemed to conjecture true neutral...
17:48:55 <Ilari> "something" just means "there is such thing as". Randomly chosen thing probably does not qualify.
17:49:01 <oerjan> i figure it's either that or neutral good.
17:50:44 <cheater99> oerjan: i need to be on the edge with that info
17:50:56 <oerjan> Ilari: you fail at grammar forever
17:50:58 <cheater99> oerjan: can you create an rss feed for that please.
17:51:28 <Ilari> oerjan: Yes, I do. :-)
17:52:59 <cheater99> nah i'm just playin'. you seem a bit uppity so i'm pulling your leg.
17:53:04 <oerjan> i don't know more about alise than anyone else here who's paying attention.
17:53:18 <oerjan> cheater99: i _said_ i was grumpy and needed to eat.
17:57:13 <Ilari> There should be esolang with large collection of operators with seemingly no connection. Also lot of them used together should be required to reach TC.
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18:04:20 <oklopol> i've had that idea a million times
18:04:38 <oklopol> and there's still suffering in the world
18:06:27 <oerjan> well if that's what causes the suffering in the world, i suggest you stop.
18:08:14 <oklopol> i never looked at it that way
18:14:54 <oklopol> a computer-generated set of millions of different commands
18:17:24 <oerjan> well the hard part i would think is making all necessary for TC-ness without them being obviously connected
18:18:34 <oklopol> yes, if you want to do it well
18:18:58 <oklopol> i was more interested in the part where the spec is multiple gigabytes
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18:19:32 <oklopol> you know me, i don't care what's inside as long as it's really big
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18:22:10 <Ilari> Good way would be to have multiple flags that affect instructions in odd ways (and have strange interactions).
18:23:18 <oerjan> --use-underlying-field "F_16"
18:23:50 <oerjan> the finite field with 16 elements
18:24:26 <Ilari> That's trace 2 field... Too ordinary. :-)
18:24:42 <oerjan> trace? you mean characteristic?
18:25:02 <Ilari> Well, what was it called... :-/
18:28:25 <oerjan> maybe it should be --use-underlying-ring instead.
18:33:27 <Ilari> Maybe field size of 3 486 784 401 would be better?
18:36:56 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 3 3486784401
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18:41:01 <oklopol> what's the trace of a field?
18:41:12 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:41:20 <Ilari> Probably means characteristic...
18:41:33 <oklopol> doubt that, maybe i'll check
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18:42:51 <oklopol> the trace of something is the sum of its conjugates
18:43:54 <oklopol> (i actually did remember it was that but minds are not to be trusted)
18:44:16 * oerjan is familiar with a completely different meaning of the term
18:44:42 <oerjan> (the trace of a square matrix is the sum of its diagonal entries)
18:46:40 <oerjan> (a major property of this trace is that tr(AB) = tr(BA))
18:48:26 <oerjan> also the sum of conjugates in F_16 would not be called 2 given that 2 = 0 in that field
18:50:53 <Ilari> 3 because 2 is too ordinary and 5 (or greater) is too simple.
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18:57:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, I first went "airfield?" at that. Since F-16 = aircraft to me.
19:01:31 <oklopol> lol shouldn't have mentioned my games, i'm hooked on bounca again
19:02:12 <oklopol> oerjan: i thought the trace of an element of a finite field is actually the trace of some matrix
19:02:56 <oklopol> maybe the guy who told me this was confusing the meanings
19:06:05 <oklopol> anyone wanna add other kinds of polygons to bounca? i hate programming as you know.
19:07:21 <DH____> not the right irc network if that's the case...
19:09:41 <oklopol> nono i hate programming but i love programmers
19:12:51 <oklopol> hehe, the ball randomly jumps like 10cm from the finish in 16.9 sec, takes like 40 seconds if you actually try to manouver there
19:12:56 <oklopol> i should probably make a new level
19:36:33 <oklopol> my games are so awesome i wish someone else had made them so i wouldn't feel so bad for advertising them.
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22:50:50 <oklopol> at least i finally found a substitution greeting
22:50:58 <oklopol> been trying to find one since our conversation
22:52:28 <oklopol> hard to do this well, because somehow a function has to become a question
22:57:12 * oerjan wonders what oklopol is babbling about. also, *munch*
22:57:40 * pikhq has been trying to write a cksum program for kicks.
22:57:43 <AnMaster> <oklopol> hard to do this well, because somehow a function has to become a question <-- to do what well?
22:57:51 <pikhq> Minor problem: it seems to be borken in ways I cannot tell.
22:57:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, no need. the heirloom one compiles for me on microcosm
22:58:05 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CaHQ
22:58:11 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:58:15 <pikhq> crc_table.h generated with http://sprunge.us/AZXC
22:58:19 <oerjan> !swedish This program does not work.
22:58:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: Don't care.
22:58:20 <EgoBot> Thees prugrem dues nut vurk. Bork Bork Bork!
22:58:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, #irp was slashdotted
22:58:37 <oklopol> "<oklopol> really old though" <<< inf as a response to sup is really old
22:58:46 <pikhq> I want to write a reasonable cksum program; I don't care that Heirloom has one.
22:58:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, as in the end results are about the same
22:58:59 <AnMaster> good thing we have a separate channel for it
22:59:00 <oklopol> "<oklopol> at least i finally found a substitution greeting" <<< since we talked about... or was that the only unclear thing?
22:59:35 <oklopol> today i was told i talk too fast
22:59:44 * oerjan has forgotten what we talked about
22:59:48 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I had to go into ultra-asshole mode when #esoteric IRP was redditted
23:00:05 <pikhq> Hmm. My crc_table appears to differ from what's in the Heirloom cksum binary.
23:00:06 <oklopol> well i would've changed about into something else
23:00:12 <oklopol> if i'd finished the sentence
23:00:13 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, like, worse than usual?
23:00:24 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: IMO heirloom's flaw is caring way too much about history.
23:00:36 <oerjan> cheater99: THIS IS AN RSS MESSAGE: ehirdiphone HAS BEEN OBSERVED
23:00:54 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I said "ultra". Anyway, I've mellowed.
23:01:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: I've also been comparing against Busybox's cksum. It *appears* to be the same generating function.
23:01:27 <pikhq> Give or take stylistic differences.
23:01:44 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I even expressed the opinion that everyone edits differently and you just have to find the editor that works for you, yesterday.
23:01:45 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: um you're trying to avoid him?
23:01:58 <pikhq> (Busybox doesn't have a statically-created crc_table)
23:02:12 <oklopol> who isn't a pedo these days
23:02:28 <pikhq> Anyways: thoughts?
23:02:33 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: it's just i was joking about how he keeps asking about you, earlier
23:03:07 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: this is so cool, now we can have a double-date with our gay lovers
23:03:14 <oerjan> (and he requested an rss feed :D)
23:03:17 <oklopol> assuming augur still has a thing for me
23:03:28 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: he's concerned my beautiful prepubescent body of spotlessness, hairlessness and innocence will be damaged
23:04:18 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: we could just both date augur, that would be vastly preferable to being in a 1,000 km^2 radius of cheater99
23:05:28 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: I meant if we both dated augur XD
23:05:43 <oklopol> i guess i don't know the expression
23:07:55 <pikhq> ... Wait a sec that table's kinda constant.
23:08:02 <pikhq> Screw it I can just copy the damned thing.
23:08:58 <cheater99> alise is angry because she knows she wants me subconsciously
23:11:16 <oerjan> well if you did you wouldn't know it, it's subconscious duh
23:11:22 -!- ehirdiphone has changed nick to aliseiphone.
23:11:37 <Gregor> Pronounced: Alih-say-phone
23:11:46 <coppro> aliseiphone: Sometimes you change it, sometimes you didn't. I just didn't know if you'd noticed
23:12:04 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
23:12:26 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
23:12:47 <aliseiphone> v. the act of gaining a vagina through metaphysical IRC
23:13:27 <Gregor> Metaphysical: Even more meta than physical
23:13:27 <ais523> "ehird" isn't a particularly /male/ name
23:13:34 <oerjan> aliseiphone: and what did the physical say?
23:13:46 <aliseiphone> (*cough* I never met a physical I didn't like.)
23:15:20 <aliseiphone> Someone offer to try leaden out when it's ready or I'll die. Of shame.
23:16:11 <Sgeo> What's leaden?
23:16:18 <Sgeo> Also, are you turning into me?
23:16:25 <pikhq> Now to make the cksum mostly-POSIX.
23:16:39 <pikhq> This consists of: adding support for command line arguments.
23:18:05 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: An awesome editor I'm writing; and no.
23:19:01 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Few people.
23:19:30 <pikhq> And now I'm going "wait a sec, the code for every other implementation of this I could find sucks".
23:19:32 <aliseiphone> Someone should totally ask me to explain leaden's design. Cough. :P
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23:24:29 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, does your on-screen keyboard ever freeze up?
23:25:25 <aliseiphone> Sometimes I get a ghost one on top rendering the UI useless.
23:25:37 <aliseiphone> And stop using me to justify buying an iPhone.
23:25:49 <aliseiphone> No more obvious questions of such a nature.
23:26:06 <Sgeo> I never bought an iPhone
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23:29:35 <AnMaster> strange news: they found an armed handgrenade at a recycling station in Stockholm this evening
23:29:46 <ais523> that seems pretty random
23:30:06 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean, placing a hand grenade there being random or me mentioning it?
23:30:11 <AnMaster> ais523, the sprint was still in
23:30:18 -!- nooga has joined.
23:30:46 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/JMgb
23:30:57 <Gregor> "Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers, and that can't be good for you." -- The "artist" formerly known as "the artist formerly known as Prince"
23:31:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://www.dn.se/sthlm/handgranat-hittad-gator-avsparrade-1.1133422
23:31:57 <pikhq> ... GAH WHY IS INDENT=2?
23:32:19 <AnMaster> they messed up the date there ye
23:35:32 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/SVRa
23:35:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, you want that table static const
23:36:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, yes I do.
23:36:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, otherwise it can't be shared between different running instances
23:36:48 <AnMaster> Gregor, is that what he is now known as?
23:40:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: This is the only implementation of cksum I know of that uses stdio.
23:40:19 <pikhq> Erm. Uses stdio *sanely*.
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23:40:35 <pikhq> Each and every other one goes through read or fread for not-much-good-reason.
23:41:02 <pikhq> Granted, they are absurdly faster, but eh.
23:41:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does your one use? no browser open atm
23:41:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, if it uses fgets() you fail at handling \0
23:41:43 <ais523> pikhq: what about stdio_unlocked? or do you consider that insane?
23:41:52 <pikhq> ais523: AAAGHNONONO
23:42:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Of course you would.
23:42:22 <AnMaster> if you hit a char device or such
23:42:28 <Sgeo> Are there any nice compiled imperative languages out there with standard libraries similar to Python's
23:42:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, what do you mean with that? ;P
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23:43:15 <pikhq> mmap is pretty retarded on a single iteration through a file.
23:43:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends. It does IO rather efficiently still
23:43:48 <pikhq> It ends up being comparable to, oh, *loading the entire file into memory*.
23:43:58 <pikhq> Even though you don't need much more than a buffer.
23:44:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, linux only loads a few pages ahead of you
23:44:28 <AnMaster> if you mark it with posix_madvice
23:44:41 <pikhq> Yes... It unmaps old pages *when it would swap stuff out*.
23:45:04 <pikhq> I'm not in favor of using more memory for hardly any benefit.
23:45:38 <AnMaster> posix_madvise() with POSIX_MADV_SEQUENTIAL
23:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway I would probably use fread()
23:47:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's fast enough as is, and I, personally, am in favor of clarity over speed.
23:48:43 * AnMaster inserts a poisx_fadvise in pikhq's code
23:48:44 <cheater99> madvise sounds like something you shouldn't listen to.
23:48:58 <cheater99> it sounds like the kind of advice that homeless people always have for you.
23:50:22 <pikhq> What benefit does posix_fadvise get you?
23:51:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: *MEASUREMENTS*.
23:51:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, it increases readahead window if you want it
23:52:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, in cksum? probably not much :P
23:52:13 <AnMaster> but it is fun to poke fun at you
23:52:41 <pikhq> Though I am tempted to check the benefits done by fread.
23:54:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could use non-blocking reads too, so you can compute stuff while waiting for the DMA buffer to fill
23:54:48 <pikhq> That way leads to Coreutils.
23:55:58 <AnMaster> POSIX_FADV_WILLNEED initiates a nonblocking read of the specified region into the page cache. The amount of data read may be decreased by the kernel depending
23:55:58 <AnMaster> on virtual memory load. (A few megabytes will usually be fully satisfied, and more is rarely useful.)
23:56:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, of course just letting kernel do it's usual readahead is probably enough
23:57:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, this is #esoteric. There is no reason whatsoever to _not_ contemplate this
23:58:25 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, how would you write it
23:58:27 <aliseiphone> As far as coreutils go I'm a minimalism nazi. :P
23:58:42 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Something much more like his original paste.
23:59:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Bloated? I presume you mean "it uses libc", right?
23:59:37 <Sgeo> I feel sinful. I gave money to M. Night Shyamalan.
23:59:41 <AnMaster> how secure is login with physical unit to generate a response code?
23:59:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How so?
00:00:04 <pikhq> Aside from the absurd error checking...
00:00:15 <pikhq> (mmm, correctness)
00:00:45 <coppro> I feel weird. I found a practical use for BF
00:01:15 <Sgeo> "I want to learn C#" "Go to this site, it's how I learned" "But you already had some programming experience"
00:01:15 <Sgeo> I just suggested Python or C
00:01:22 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:01:32 <coppro> For "encrypting" a file - not to actually protect the data, but just discourage casual observers. Run the following program, which interestingly enough has each symbol exactly once: +[>,-.<]
00:01:48 <coppro> run it again with s/-/+/ to un"encrypt" it
00:02:19 <coppro> and the BF program is shorter than the equivalent in nearly every other language
00:02:30 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
00:02:32 <aliseiphone> The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS.
00:02:49 <coppro> I forgot how BF behaves when it runs out of input
00:03:15 <coppro> hmm... off-by-one error
00:03:51 <coppro> aliseiphone: what a fantastic phone i must buy one now
00:03:58 <pikhq> "Look at your..." ?
00:04:34 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking.
00:04:37 <aliseiphone> The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS.
00:05:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Okay, so screw the error checking that I added on a bizarre whim.
00:05:29 <Sgeo> aliseiphone tends to be anti-feature though (j/k)
00:05:37 <pikhq> I think I can keep the fopen error checking.
00:05:38 <aliseiphone> And functions shouldn't have unneccessary cruft. When writing functions, how many flags do they have?
00:06:07 <aliseiphone> You nest (pipe) functions (commands) instead.
00:06:20 <pikhq> aliseiphone: POSIX requires the argument.
00:06:28 <aliseiphone> So, do try and remove all flags that significantly complicate your code.
00:06:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: POSIX compliance is an amusing fiction.
00:06:55 <pikhq> And almost all UNIXes implement that.
00:07:28 <aliseiphone> Separate the code common to the arguments. Say into a function.
00:07:56 <aliseiphone> "if(flag)" in actually-computing code is lame. :P
00:08:17 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking.
00:08:36 <AnMaster> correctness is less important than simplicity?
00:08:55 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Also, I do wonder if the octets blab might better belong in the BUGS section of cksum.1.
00:09:19 <pikhq> aliseiphone: It probably does.
00:10:08 <aliseiphone> It didn't work properly, was one minor flaw.
00:10:45 <aliseiphone> I like the idea of a truly correct C program. Ha!
00:11:01 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that would be awesome. But I suggest using haskell or such for that
00:11:23 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Also, I suggest removing the libc dependency and rewriting it in PDP-11 assembly.
00:11:36 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: a truly correct haskell program???
00:12:10 <pikhq> Also, this is coming out much more nicely.
00:12:18 <pikhq> Thanks for the sanity check, aliseiphone.
00:12:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Just call me "Ultimate Genius, Lord Over Everything".
00:13:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ZWTV
00:14:11 <pikhq> Doesn't compile though XD
00:14:30 <pikhq> s/else {/} else {/
00:15:06 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes, hello world in haskell, ought to be truly correct quite easily
00:15:18 <AnMaster> if you meant non-trivial then say so
00:16:07 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Additional, nitpicking suggestions: Put the CRC function first; the UI is cruft, not the important bit; try and reduce the nesting of the UI logic; and use "!strcmp" rather than "strcmp(...) == 0". But these are minutiae; the code is great.
00:16:37 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Other than the bugs
00:16:44 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Have you ever considered being less of a pedant in informal conversation? It's a nice social lubricant.
00:18:33 <aliseiphone> One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible!
00:18:57 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, you are officially being an idiot or a troll now
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00:20:44 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Oh? And which line made you decide this?
00:20:51 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible!
00:21:29 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and ls without colour I won't use. I find the coloured output very very useful
00:21:59 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Oh, how I wish that I could return a tuple in C.
00:22:00 <aliseiphone> You are free to note that I can write ls(1) perfectly well, that a version with limited flags is very easy to make truly elegant, and that I have a very stringent definition of "trule elegant".
00:22:38 <pikhq> Sorry, return one *and pattern match*.
00:22:50 <aliseiphone> Furthermore, I don't, never have, and never will give a damn about whether you will use my coreutils or not. Especially as I know you won't from the get-go.
00:23:05 <oerjan> patterns are no match for C
00:23:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ZVMh
00:23:37 <oerjan> gotta keep you on your toes
00:23:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, that's the original one aliseiphone hated?
00:24:16 <pikhq> Lemme get the right thing in the pastebuffer.
00:24:20 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/GGWP
00:24:33 <oerjan> aliseiphone: inte omöjligt
00:24:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, instämmer med föregående Norske talare
00:24:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: You have crc's prototype right before its definition.
00:25:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... Yearghright.
00:25:19 <nooga> oerjan: my bro is in norway and he's a f*#* genius if it comes to natural langs
00:25:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, and put static on the next one
00:26:37 <nooga> he spent 3 weeks there and he actually speaks simple norwegian
00:27:00 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, an ipad would be equally hard
00:27:06 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, also put a compiler on n900
00:27:34 <aliseiphone> knock on door, press button on ipad, rest on floor, hidden
00:27:36 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, _proper_ smartphones can run compilers
00:27:42 <nooga> Bartosz Michał Gasperowicz FFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!! Lurt igjen! :D
00:28:19 <nooga> oerjan: what does this mean?
00:28:20 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Keyboard. Screen real estate. Processing power.
00:28:39 <aliseiphone> 500mhz arm + small screen + touchscreen keyboard = no
00:28:55 <oerjan> nooga: Bartosz Micha? Gasperowicz DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!! Fooled again! :D
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00:29:23 <nooga> because he works for a guy that can't express feelings, he just passes information
00:29:39 <nooga> and says somethin and then does something different
00:29:47 <nooga> he's in a village 'near' Floro
00:30:21 <oerjan> there was unicode? oh well.
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04:34:00 * pikhq would like to demonstrate how you do a Makefile, for everyone that makes it too complex.
04:34:02 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IEXi
04:44:49 <cheater99> http://failblog.org/2010/07/05/epic-fail-photos-makeup-fail/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+failblog+(The+FAIL+Blog+-+Fail+Pictures+%26+Videos+at+Failblog.ORG)&utm_content=FaceBook
04:59:24 * pikhq is a-doing a coreutils
05:08:56 <AnMaster> <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IEXi <-- I would add the .PHONY line, but otherwise I agree
05:09:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I would, if I had more programs, add PROGRAMS = foo bar quux
05:10:24 <AnMaster> that way there is less duplication
05:10:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yes I agree with the general idea
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05:11:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, also how would you make one target link -lm there
05:12:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never figured out a clean way
05:12:06 <AnMaster> that is, with just implicit targets
05:18:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh, GNU make only, but there's a way to do per-target variables.
05:19:30 <pikhq> target: LDFLAGS += -lm
05:21:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, well that puts it BEFORE the files iirc
05:21:45 <AnMaster> which break with -Wl,--as-needed
05:22:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, which might be an issue
05:23:21 <pikhq> LDLIBS is what you want.
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05:26:01 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/BgXe It's 100% POSIX compliant cat!
05:26:17 <pikhq> (thank God they removed all the other options!)
05:27:55 <pikhq> It worries me greatly that most implementations of cat are actually complex.
05:28:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's fucking CAT
05:28:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I want to concatenate a dual-side dual-layer dvd image split on 1.44 MB floppies! ;P
05:29:09 <pikhq> ... "1.44 MB floppies".
05:29:22 <pikhq> No, that needs a cat that operates faster than the floppy drive.
05:29:34 <pikhq> I can guarantee that this is orders of magnitude faster.
05:29:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah but already copied the floppies to disk with dd
05:30:03 <pikhq> Still fast enough.
05:30:11 * Sgeo learns a lesson
05:30:18 <Sgeo> NEVER code just for the happy case
05:30:30 <Sgeo> Even if, in production, the happy case will always be true
05:30:47 <Sgeo> Because in development, it isn't necessarily the case
05:31:24 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: well, it's a balancing act. It is helpful to consider worse-case scenarios in an algirthm, but if you do it too much you waste a lot of time with boilerplate code. Sometimes you should just let it crash.
05:32:56 * pikhq tries to find a list of utils that POSIX requires
05:33:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is in the POSIX standard
05:33:32 <CakeProphet> I still haven't seen error-handling in Haskell in action.
05:36:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: It doesn't have a single handy list, but it's possible to see if something's required. Which works for me.
05:36:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, it has a list on the side in the pdf bookmarks
05:37:42 <pikhq> Gash darnit, awk is mandatory.
05:39:06 <pikhq> I don't care what it says, that's seperate from coreutils.
05:42:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, hey you are not ehird :P
05:43:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc getline() is in POSIX 2008 and suc
05:44:08 <AnMaster> the glibc people managed to get a few things in
05:44:20 <AnMaster> things that are actually quite useful in general
06:07:30 <CakeProphet> I have this piss cheap vodka that I do not want to finish off straight. But I don't want to throw it into a shitty mixed drink either if it isn't going to waste good
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06:38:32 <pikhq> /bin/cat is 52k. That frightens me.
06:39:24 <coppro> I think you can do it in like 50 bytes
06:40:27 <pikhq> Mine's 8k with dietlibc, but then, that does include a full stdio implementation.
06:40:48 <pikhq> asmutils' is 684 bytes.
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06:45:58 <Deewiant> coppro: The ELF header is longer than 50 bytes :-P
06:46:19 <coppro> It was something really silly
06:46:31 <coppro> (it wasn't compliant though; just straight no-option cat
06:46:56 <Deewiant> Something like 250-300 bytes is probably doable
06:47:01 <pikhq> coppro: asmutils' is *GNU* compliants.
07:28:15 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]
07:28:19 <EgoBot> [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9]]
07:29:33 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9,10]]
07:29:35 <EgoBot> [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,4,10],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,5,10],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[1,6,10],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,4,10],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,5,10],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[2,6,10],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,4,10],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,5,10],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9],[3,6,10]]
07:30:07 <CakeProphet> so the size of each sub-list is the minimum size of the input sub-lists
07:33:28 <CakeProphet> for some reason it reminds me of powerset, but it's not the same.
07:34:16 <CakeProphet> oh, and there's one size-4 list.... so now I have no fucking clue what sequence does on [[a]]
07:34:36 <CakeProphet> other than a bunch of permutation-like lists
07:39:45 <EgoBot> [[1,3],[1,4],[2,3],[2,4]]
07:40:20 <EgoBot> [[1,4],[1,5],[1,6],[2,4],[2,5],[2,6],[3,4],[3,5],[3,6]]
07:40:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of small executables, I have a 253-byte stub (inc. ELF headers + code) for x86-32 which does (with direct syscalls) fork+exec /bin/bzcat, feeds it a blob, reads it to rwx segment and jumps into it.
07:41:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: (I use it for compressed executables, since UPX's compression ratio isn't so awesome and its decompression stub is larger; while the "traditional" trick of making a shellscript that decompresses into /tmp/x and runs it is so ugly.)
07:43:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: (Anyhow, I'm sure you can get a "doesn't look at argv, just read+write loop" cat into the 100-150 byte range. My headers are 72 bytes, and you can stick 9 bytes of code into the padding in the middle anyway.)
07:46:30 <coppro> every Haskell function is deterministic
07:47:13 <CakeProphet> each sublist in the output becomes a non-deterministic value of a new non-deterministic sequence... represented determinnistically as a [[a]]
07:47:22 <CakeProphet> coppro: simulated, of course. I use non-deterministic loosely.
07:47:47 <coppro> how is this non-deterministic at all?
07:48:26 <CakeProphet> let's say the input to the sequencefunction is a sequence x(n)
07:49:39 <EgoBot> [[1,3,5],[1,3,6],[1,4,5],[1,4,6],[2,3,5],[2,3,6],[2,4,5],[2,4,6]]
07:51:22 <CakeProphet> x(0) = 1 or 2; x(1) = 3 or 4; x(2) = 5 or 6
07:52:24 <CakeProphet> it's a simulation of a non-determinstic sequence that constructs every possible deterministic sequence that it represents.
07:55:44 <CakeProphet> !haskell do {nd_list <- sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]; nd_list}
07:55:46 <EgoBot> [1,4,1,5,1,6,2,4,2,5,2,6,3,4,3,5,3,6]
07:56:26 <CakeProphet> !haskell join $ sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
07:57:15 <coppro> [00:52:11]<CakeProphet>I don't think I'm making any sense. <-- this
07:57:50 <CakeProphet> it's basically how the monadic operations of [] a represent non-determinism
07:58:09 <CakeProphet> sequence takes one representation and flips it around in a way.
07:59:47 <CakeProphet> so instead of having a list where each sub-list is a non-deterministic value
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08:00:17 <CakeProphet> you now have a list where each sub-list is a possible determinized list.
08:00:49 <CakeProphet> of the original non-deterministic sequence
08:01:22 <CakeProphet> natural language makes technical things hard to explain.
08:01:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I was thinking of "completely ordinary" executables, not using parts of the ELF header for code. :-)
08:01:46 <fizzie> But everyone's doing that!
08:01:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: But I did misremember that the headers were around 120 bytes or so.
08:04:32 <CakeProphet> !haskell do {x <- [1..9]; return $ [x, x+1, x+2]}
08:04:33 <EgoBot> [[1,2,3],[2,3,4],[3,4,5],[4,5,6],[5,6,7],[6,7,8],[7,8,9],[8,9,10],[9,10,11]]
08:05:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: They're about that size if you have more than one segment, which you will in a "completely ordinary" executable (one read-write for data, one read-executable for code).
08:05:16 <EgoBot> [1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6,5,6,7,6,7,8,7,8,9,8,9,10,9,10,11]
08:05:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: (Also mine would be 80 bytes already, I just interlaced the last 8 bytes of the file header with the first 8 of the segment header.)
08:05:35 <Deewiant> Well, you probably don't need a non-code segment for cat
08:06:15 <CakeProphet> you could implement a monad for digital signal processing that makes things like delay-lines easy to do.
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ nasm -Ox -o cat -f bin cat.asm ; chmod u+x cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ echo 'foo, bar, baz' | ./cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ ls -l cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> -rwxrw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 110 2010-07-06 10:06 cat*
08:07:49 <CakeProphet> do { (dval, x) <- signalWithDelay 3 [1..]; return $ dval+x}
08:08:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Doesn't take arguments, I take it :-)
08:08:16 <CakeProphet> psh, wtf am I saying. You don't even need to define a new type.
08:08:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Right. Haven't tested it much either, might have bugs. Might also be a bit overly pessimistic as to whether a syscall's argument registers stay intact; I think they might, which would save some bytes.
08:08:43 <Deewiant> I was thinking POSIX-compatible
08:08:52 <CakeProphet> signalWithDelay :: Int -> [a] -> [(Maybe a,a)]
08:09:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: I don't think that's guaranteed anywhere, but I'm not sure.
08:09:43 <CakeProphet> signalWithDelay :: Int -> Int -> [a] -> [([Maybe a],a)]
08:10:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Somebody claimed it was, and the syscall handling seemed to suggest they were, but I didn't see it exactly spelled out in the docs anywhere. The syscall number is lost, at least, since that's the return value register.
08:10:08 <CakeProphet> first int is distance back, second int is size of the delay line.
08:11:45 <fizzie> Some architectures clobber the syscall argument registers, according to some glibc bug report I found when googling for whether x86-32 does.
08:12:21 <CakeProphet> delayedSignalWithDefault :: Int -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)]
08:12:55 <CakeProphet> delayedSignalWithDefault :: a -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)]
08:17:57 <CakeProphet> do you think there would be any real harm in making tuple types a superset of all algebraic data types with a single constructor that fits the tuple?
08:19:44 <coppro> congratulations, you just described Haskell lists
08:20:08 <CakeProphet> is there any reason to make tuples distinct from named algebraic constructors.
08:20:37 <CakeProphet> why couldn't tuples simply represent /any/ constructor for pattern matching?
08:20:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: 101 bytes if I assume the regs are saved, and it seems to work.
08:21:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: Of course it may work, but that doesn't mean it's ABI-guaranteed :-)
08:21:35 <CakeProphet> a value of type (a, [a]) would contain the set of [a] values constructed via (:)
08:22:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: There were some .pdf slidesets that seemed to suggest it was. :p
08:22:33 <CakeProphet> but a value of type (a, [a]) would not include values of type [a] constructed from []
08:23:23 <CakeProphet> [a] values constructed from [] could be type ()
08:24:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/LhDM if you want to see them codes.
08:25:02 <CakeProphet> instead of writing functions that operate on specific named types of specific typeclasses
08:25:24 <CakeProphet> you could instead write functions that operate on any algebraic data structure constructed with a certain signature
08:27:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: I note no error checking
08:27:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: Where's your buffer size?
08:28:11 <CakeProphet> under that typing system, (1,(2,(3,()))) would be equivalent to [1,2,3] as well as any other algebraic value constructed the same way.
08:28:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's the same as the buffer's address. You know, to save bytes.
08:28:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: (That's why I loaded the program to a reasonably low address.)
08:29:20 <fizzie> And there *is* error checking of sorts; if the read fails, it'll exit.
08:29:28 <fizzie> If the write fails, though, then it won't bother.
08:29:28 <CakeProphet> imagine if the address was 1 billion base 10. :)
08:29:51 <Deewiant> But with the correct error code?
08:30:13 <fizzie> Well, no, of course not. That would mean I'd have to distinguish between errors and end-of-file.
08:30:48 <Deewiant> Your cat is but a poor approximation of a cat
08:31:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can possibly add a "sets bl" into some proper spot to get return code 0 of the program when it hits EOF, and 1 when an error occurs.
08:31:32 <fizzie> The worst part of the cat is that it won't read files specified as arguments, admittedly.
08:32:29 <Deewiant> Also, write may write less than it's given; you need to loop it until it's done
08:33:01 <Deewiant> I'll stick to GNU cat; it may be bloated but at least it works!
08:34:10 <CakeProphet> [] :: [a], EOF :: ExampleStreamType a, () :: ()
08:34:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: The decompression stub I have now writes the whole compressed code into a FIFO before starting to read from bzcat; it works because Linux's pipe buffers are 64k nowadays. I used to have three processes (one child to exec bzcat, one child to loop-write bytes into its stdin, the parent to read until EOF and then run the code) but that took far too many bytes; to get it under 256 bytes I had to cut some corners.
08:36:12 <fizzie> Another "nice" trick: I put bzcat's argv list at the very end of the program, because that way I don't need to explicitly put the terminating NULL pointer in the file, since what's after the program is zero-initialized data already.
08:49:14 <CakeProphet> bah... sockets in Haskell are not very well documented
08:50:46 <coppro> http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/repealing-unnecessary-laws/repeal-the-2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-1
09:04:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: I almost never manage to do any breakfast at home, so I have to do a 10:30 lunch here.
09:05:03 <Deewiant> Breakfast is the most important meal of the day etc
09:08:37 <fizzie> Let's call what I just ate a "breakfast", then.
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11:24:38 <CakeProphet> I think I program a little better after being drunk
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14:22:00 <nooga> AnMaster: sorry for disappearing, my battery was depleted
14:25:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> nooga, wtf is http://plfoto.com/zdjecie,inne,wkrotce-bal-sie-tutaj-rozpocznie,1549252.html ? Some sort of post-apocalypse world?
14:25:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> nooga, and tell your dad I think your images are awesome. And I love HDR.
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14:42:03 <nooga> not post-apocalypse but post-soviet :D
14:46:32 <AnMaster> Hm wow. Any of you have a classical PC keyboard nearby. Not low profile that is. And a rubber band.
14:46:32 <AnMaster> Put the rubber band around ESC-F12, wait while it slides up the keys... Try to predict which way it flies.
14:46:49 <nooga> it was like soviets took polish manors and turned them into big farms & stuff and then left
14:47:06 <nooga> so there are some ruined places like this
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14:50:25 <cheater99> nooga: it's not like they weren't pigstalls before the russians came
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14:52:23 <cheater99> the royals getting drunk and high all the time for the money they got from traders for selling off their influence
14:52:49 <cheater99> you can only have so many drunken parties in a nice place before it turns into a crackhouse
14:53:16 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/5ec68700f0
14:55:56 <cheater99> do you truly think if the polish gave a shit about their country this stuff would like that *today*?
14:56:14 <cheater99> 25 years after overthrowing the soviet regime?
14:56:53 <AnMaster> <cheater99> AnMaster: no. <-- ?
14:57:20 <cheater99> AnMaster: i refuse to be a slave executing your rubberband schemes.
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15:36:08 <ais523> wow, someone found an XSS bug in Youtube comments (now fixed)
15:36:24 <ais523> the string that broke them was <script><script> without closing either tag
15:37:21 <ais523> and 4chan spammed it all over everything
15:39:45 <ais523> I'm pretty concerned that XSS still exists nowadays; you'd think that preventing HTML injection would be just as easy as preventing SQL injection
15:39:52 <ais523> if you want to allow HTML-alike formatting, use a whitelist
15:39:58 <ais523> OK, loads of people get this wrong, but Google?
15:40:22 <AnMaster> ais523 maybe it broke their html parser?
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15:48:32 <cpressey> a) youtube is only nominally google and b) google's schtick is casting the *illusion* of being filled with smart, competent people, not actually *having* them
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18:07:46 <augur> im not your sweetie, cupcake.
18:08:31 <augur> im not your sweetheart, sugar
18:08:31 <ais523> augur: you're being weirder than normal today...
18:08:39 <ais523> anything interesting esolanging-wise going on?
18:08:55 <augur> tho i do have a wonderful way of understand Huet's zippers
18:08:57 <ais523> I'm wondering if you've managed to come up with the next Feather and have gone insane as a result
18:09:12 <augur> im considering a nice, pen-and-paper animation to explain it
18:09:53 <augur> have i mentioned im sleep deprived
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18:11:38 <augur> if i were anything else, you could ask me the same question!
18:12:12 <ais523> augur: technically speaking, I'm probably sleep-deprived too
18:12:25 <ais523> but I tend to be more coherent than you under such circumstances
18:12:34 <ais523> I just get exasperated more easily
18:12:43 <ais523> Nephilim: what brings you here?
18:13:31 <ais523> (I'm assuming you're new rather than a regular here, because I can only think of one regular who uses Colloquy and their whois info wouldn't look like that)
18:14:56 <Nephilim> Just trying colloquy for the first time and this room just looked like my cup of tea. Just on the train home from work to be honest.
18:15:25 <AnMaster> Nephilim you know it is about esoteric programming?
18:15:44 <ais523> AnMaster: esoprogramming is probably more popular
18:15:51 <ais523> at least among people who are vaguely likely to use Freenode
18:15:56 <AnMaster> Nephilim your nick. It reminds me of some old game
18:16:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a M:tG reference
18:16:10 <AnMaster> probably something I played back on my old classic mac
18:16:13 <ais523> as far as I know, they coined the word in the first place
18:16:37 <ais523> they do sometimes borrow words from other sources, though
18:16:37 <AnMaster> some kind of cat-humanoid race in the avernum game
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18:17:58 <ais523> train must be going through a tunnel or something
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18:18:08 <ais523> either that, or he or she's holding it on the bottom left corner
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18:18:47 <AnMaster> ais523, so I have about 500 MB of raw files here
18:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: raw as in the image unformat?
18:19:23 <AnMaster> ais523, raw as in *.MRW from camera yes
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18:19:54 <AnMaster> now to extract all the data from it
18:20:25 <ais523> meh, it's not often Apple give us such a perfect meme to make fun of them with, even if it's an unfair one
18:21:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think I can batch convert these raw images though
18:21:19 <AnMaster> not if I want to extract the most from the over exposed sky
18:21:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ImageMagick (or your favourite fork of it) probably can
18:21:31 <ais523> at least, in terms of transforming them into a more standard format
18:21:37 <AnMaster> ais523, duh I need ufraw to convert it, and there is ufraw-batch
18:21:53 <AnMaster> it was trying to extract most from the sky
18:22:05 <AnMaster> it will need some manual exposure compensation fiddling
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18:30:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Did I see you otherwhere? How come? (I guess I technically should ask on that other channel, but somehow I feel more comfortable talking here.)
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18:31:45 <ais523> fizzie: this is an odd channel that way
18:33:38 <Ilari_antrcomp> Heh... 8 POV-Rays running in parallel (this is what you get for well-paralelizable problems).
18:37:53 <nooga> raytracing is extremely well-paralelizable
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18:42:15 <nooga> if you've got 8 cores, why not
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18:43:57 <Ilari_antrcomp> Not that individual frames are heavy... But there's lots of them (tens of thoursands).
18:44:11 <fizzie> An embarrassingly parallel problem.
18:44:49 <nooga> what are you rendering?
18:44:52 <Ilari_antrcomp> I don't use POV-Ray internal animation features but feed scenes to render from Lua script.
18:46:42 <Ilari_antrcomp> The scene data is adapted from one game and motion data from one of my runs of said game. So in essence it is that run from 1st person POV.
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18:51:33 <nooga> you're raytracing skyroads
18:51:48 <fizzie> At least the scenes won't be overly complicated then.
18:52:34 <nooga> how did you manage to get the scene and motion data from the game?
18:52:51 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, what is skyroads?
18:53:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: Arcadey thing; see http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/
18:54:03 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
18:54:28 <nooga> they used arrays for that?
18:55:03 <Ilari_antrcomp> Of course, to get the motion data, one has to read the memory once per frame.
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18:55:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And the channel is... uh, well, it's named after a room in the CS building of our university.
18:55:35 <nooga> i'd love to see ready animation
18:56:25 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Are you putting the low-resolution Skyroads background planets-and-stars-and-such images in, too?-)
18:56:28 <Ilari_antrcomp> Estimated length of finished animation: About 13 minutes 20 seconds.
18:56:57 <fizzie> And what about the "starship"? That's a sprite "in reality", I guess.
18:57:04 * pikhq freaking loves Duff's Device coroutines
18:57:46 <fizzie> Ah. Well, that makes sense.
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19:00:11 <Ilari_antrcomp> And that run presents total breaking of the game (I have the corresponding data from Skyroads Xmas special as well (okay, who was the sadist who designed levels there?)).
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19:00:40 <Sgeo> Ilari_antrcomp, several times, when I have mentioned my.. food issues to people, they have asked if I like pizza
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19:01:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's more lifey than the channel of our department
19:02:43 <fizzie> Wow, the departmental channel must be pretty dead, then.
19:03:30 <Deewiant> It's got a single-digit amount of users and half of them aren't actually in the department (though they used to be)
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19:04:19 <fizzie> Heh. Well, I guess at least half of the people on "that channel" aren't in the particular room, either.
19:05:59 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's not quite as quiet usually as it is now; must be all those people on their vacations.)
19:07:06 <Deewiant> The amount of lines said during the time I've been there outnumbers what's been said on the other during the past few months or so
19:09:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: 732 lines said during the month of June, according to my log.
19:09:21 <pikhq> I'm not sure why, I'm not sure how, but I do believe that this sucker is being annoying as heck.
19:09:59 <pikhq> WHY IS RETURN SEGFAULTING D':
19:10:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's probably more than's been said on the other channel in the few years I've been there
19:11:47 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Are you going to keep talking about this? Because I'm going to have to start playing it if you are. (I guess it would work all right in dosbox.)
19:13:30 <Ilari_antrcomp> It would work in DosBox. But as warning, its pretty hard (even the non-Xmas version).
19:13:47 <fizzie> Oh, I've played through all the levels before; I know what it's like.
19:13:50 <fizzie> Well, the regular one.
19:13:58 <fizzie> The Xmas Special I haven't.
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19:15:45 <fizzie> Yes, I wouldn't think they'd release something they themselves couldn't do at least once.
19:16:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> Or they used the demo feature to "do" them. There are levels that seem to require almost frame-perfect timing.
19:18:54 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, can you show some frames of this animation
19:18:58 <fizzie> I do remember spending quite many attempts in some of the levels of the original game, too.
19:19:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:21:10 <fizzie> Road 1 of The Earth, at least.
19:21:12 <oerjan> <cheater99> where are o(klopol|erian) <-- YOU WILL NEVER KNOW
19:22:09 <Ilari_antrcomp> The Earth Road 3 was one of the hardest in original game. Now do it in under 30 seconds. :-)
19:22:23 <AnMaster> 1.1 GB image data... (*.MRW + 8-bit tiff, too much for me to be able to pull off 16-bit on my systems)
19:22:24 -!- coolSTER has changed nick to elliottcable.
19:24:04 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: given the subject of conversation and past context, I'm now vaguely wondering if it works on JPCRR
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19:26:15 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: speedrun rather than tas?
19:26:30 <ais523> ah, first result /is/ a tas
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19:29:50 <fizzie> SWFroads seems to handle very differently from the original.
19:29:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it means that it records everything you do, and if you go back to a savestate, it edits the recording accordingly
19:30:12 <ais523> thus, at the end you get one single recording with all your loadstating edited out
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19:32:11 <Ilari_antrcomp> AnMaster: But then, everything depicted is really possible in the game.
19:32:25 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Is that first-hit youtube thing yours, by any chance?
19:32:28 <AnMaster> but inhuman to manage to pull off
19:33:00 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, anyway I want to see some frames from this animation
19:33:08 <AnMaster> also what does antrcomp stand for
19:33:18 <fizzie> "Another computer" would be my guess.
19:34:32 <cpressey> No, it's a computer made out of ants.
19:35:05 <AnMaster> like toys r us? ants r computers?
19:35:49 <fizzie> The curious thing is that when I google for "JPCRR", the first hit is a Git repository, and the "owner" field has a name that matches to a person who was on the same class as I in high school, and the three previous grades.
19:36:11 <cpressey> fizzie: That's the universe doing that THAT it does, again.
19:36:35 <cpressey> I think I meant to type THING there, but what I did type is almost better.
19:36:51 <AnMaster> I was wondering about the logic of it
19:37:02 <Ilari> http://imagebin.ca/view/wTPovq.html
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19:43:32 <Ilari_antrcomp> Final renders would be with much larger resolution + AA turned on.
19:43:50 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/TENK I present: cal!
19:44:14 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/YJVa Really!
19:44:55 <Ilari_antrcomp> And if you are wondering if that pink in that image is burning surface... Yes it is.
19:46:10 * pikhq should clean a few things up there though
19:48:15 <fizzie> You could make the burning floors glow pink a bit, and the fuel-filling ones glow blue. Nothing ostentatious, just something subtly visible.
19:49:19 <Ilari_antrcomp> I'm thinking making burning floors bit lava-like, fuel-filling ones glow, slippery ones look icy, and boost and sticky to have arrows. :-)
19:51:37 <fizzie> Gah, that Asteroid Belt 3 fuel thing.
19:51:41 <Ilari_antrcomp> BTW: If one wanted to make skaizoroads, one could play with palette mapping entries (there are 71 per level) concerning burning blocks...
19:53:02 <Ilari_antrcomp> Its possible jump to that hole without slowing down (other than from banging the ship a bit).
19:54:09 <fizzie> Yes, but I ran out of fuel in that level quite many times; it's not exactly obvious it refills fuel there.
19:57:14 <Ilari_antrcomp> The only level where I have managed to run out of fuel without missing fuel pad: Druidia Road 1.
19:58:45 <ais523> do you consider skyroads a racer or a platformer?
19:59:19 <ais523> just finished watching your TAS
19:59:46 <cpressey> Is City Connection a racer or a platformer? :)
20:00:12 <ais523> hmm, you could arguably even call Enigma a platformer, although it's primarily a puzzle game
20:00:17 <ais523> some of the levels are rather platformish
20:02:08 <Ilari_antrcomp> One can do enigma level such that its easily possible to show from level program that it is possible to solve with solution of practical length, but still remain infeasible to solve.
20:02:50 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: well, of course
20:03:04 <ais523> but that wouldn't make for a very good puzzle
20:06:23 * pikhq introduced a bug, is now upset
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20:06:57 <Ilari_antrcomp> Level that is really expander graph that gets partially swapped out? :-)
20:08:08 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: Sokoban is PSPACE-complete, and Turing-complete if generalised to infinite puzzles
20:08:53 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/RWaI
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20:11:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> Those kind of levels are related to construct that it is possible to obustificate what triggers something in program (including obustificating what it triggers).
20:11:58 <pikhq> Apparently nobody looks at my code ever. :P
20:12:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:21:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, of course, except when it is in microcosm!
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20:49:54 <coppro> ais523: How do you define Sokoban's inputs and outputs?
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20:51:15 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutine.h
20:51:53 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:52:07 <pikhq> Just coroutines with switches.
20:52:23 <pikhq> Believe me, it's better this way.
21:09:59 * pikhq gets tempted to reimplement inflate.
21:10:07 <pikhq> If only I knew why.
21:11:15 <oerjan> inflated ego, clearly.
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21:42:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in decompressed for deflate?
21:50:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, why not reimplate deflate
21:52:22 * oerjan whacks AnMaster's joke detector to see if it improves
21:53:04 * AnMaster 's joke detector starts humming and the emits a huge amount of black smoke
21:53:36 <fizzie> Re-impale deflagrations.
21:53:39 <oerjan> i say that's an improvement.
21:55:19 <oerjan> flagrant impalas re-rioting
21:56:30 <fizzie> Reconfigure fragrant imports.
21:59:00 <oerjan> conifer import grant figures
22:01:46 <fizzie> Reconnaissance implies grafted sporks.
22:04:34 <oerjan> ork spies reconnect imp graph liaisons
22:09:20 <fizzie> Leprechaun futures: investment returns guaranteed.
22:09:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:40 <micahjohnston> what is a kind of expressions that has the flexibility of a stack-based language but isn't stack-based?
22:12:17 <oerjan> leopard furs invert gargantuan crutches
22:19:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, oerjan: how were you making those up?
22:21:13 <fizzie> I don't know about oerjan, but I used this brain thing.
22:28:17 <olsner> fizzie: yeah right, as if
22:29:25 <fizzie> The famous "as if" rule says I don't actually have to have a brain, as long as I produce text that looks "as if" it was generated with one.
22:30:43 <fizzie> If you had half a brain, you'd be missing the other half.
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22:34:12 <oerjan> and if you got hold of that half, you'd be too clever by half.
22:41:37 <fizzie> I've half a mind to go asleep.
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22:45:31 <aliseiphone> I have the light on. Not visible from outside, comfier on inside. Logical...
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23:00:46 <aliseiphone> Firstly, do you really, REALLY need a fake coroutine there? Secondly, for all those pages of code, you don't handle September 1752 (even old Unix did this).
23:03:17 <oerjan> hey 1752 is an english-centered thing
23:04:13 <olsner> it would be cool if it was locale-sensitive and gave the right answer for the period of time when different countries were using old/new calendars
23:04:23 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Believe me, it gets *ugly* without the coroutine thing.
23:04:40 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:04:59 -!- nooga has joined.
23:05:05 <pikhq> For example, look at *any other implementation*.
23:05:06 <olsner> (no, not really... just complicated... but excessive attention to detail is somewhat amusing in a way)
23:05:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I won't believe you: I have read Plan 9's cal(1).
23:05:59 <aliseiphone> If you're not getting paid it's a lot less enraging to just ignore it...
23:06:11 <pikhq> olsner: Locale-sensitivity is why libc is several megs.
23:06:15 <olsner> indeed, that would be the point - making it locale sensitive just to make it harder
23:06:29 <pikhq> The point is to not be painful.
23:06:31 <olsner> make it harder to display dates from more than 200 years ago
23:06:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Good point on the Julian dates thing though.
23:07:01 <pikhq> Kinda violates POSIX to not support the Julian calendar.
23:07:05 <aliseiphone> Anyway, supporting "cal sep 1752" is Unix tradition.
23:07:40 <pikhq> No requirements to support month names or abbreviations.
23:07:49 <pikhq> Nor do I have the inclination to.
23:07:54 <aliseiphone> "The British calendar act of 1751 / declared twelve days of the following year / would not exist" —Make Believe, "Political Mysticism"
23:08:27 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Can I offer the god of usability and convenience to replace yours of POSIX compliance?
23:09:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I'm only giving credence to POSIX when it's not unreasonable.
23:09:32 <oerjan> usa-bility is just an american plot anyhow
23:09:59 <aliseiphone> "Try 'cal sep 1752'." (or similar) —some very old Unix manpage.
23:10:32 <aliseiphone> Month names and abbreviations! Three lines of code! Yay!
23:10:43 <pikhq> Seriously, GNU cal doesn't support it.
23:10:50 <pikhq> And these are the guys who made a bloated hello world.
23:12:11 <pikhq> Also: "Try 'cal sep 1752'." isn't UNIX, it's Plan 9.
23:12:51 <pikhq> Trying to find it!
23:13:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: http://cm.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cal.c
23:14:42 <pikhq> I'm... Not calling that "readable".
23:15:47 <aliseiphone> The performance hacks like the switch suck, yeah.
23:16:11 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that one is broken too
23:16:27 <pikhq> No, the means it uses for printing out a complete year. I... Don't get it.
23:16:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, in sv_SE Monday comes first in the week
23:16:50 <cpressey> /* you are not expected to understand this */
23:17:01 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and you go suck iphone
23:17:27 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Hellooo, using an iPhone because I'm IN A FUCKING INSTITUTION
23:17:42 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes and you can stop being rude towards me
23:18:11 <aliseiphone> Indeed. I'd say that you in turn could stop being idiotic, but that would be a lie.
23:18:25 <aliseiphone> pikhq: True, I thought the code was better.
23:18:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Guess I'll have to write my own cal(1).
23:20:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: "The cal utility shall write a calendar to standard output using the Julian calendar for dates from January 1, 1 through September 2, 1752 and the Gregorian calendar for dates from September 14, 1752 through December 31, 9999 as though the Gregorian calendar had been adopted on September 14, 1752."
23:20:46 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:20:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, locales are PAIN AND AGONY.
23:21:13 <pikhq> It'd take, like AliseOS to make them not painful.
23:21:31 <cpressey> If I set my locale to "The Region of Thud", do I get a Discordian calendar?
23:21:44 <pikhq> cpressey: If you add that as a locale: yes.
23:21:51 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Guess what: we don't give a flying fuck about Sweden. At least not while we're writing coreutils for our OWN USE.
23:21:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes everyone should just use the Swedish locale
23:22:09 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, well why didn't you say that it was for your own use
23:22:34 <pikhq> Half the point here is to be clean and readable. Half the point is to suck less than other coreutils.
23:22:50 <pikhq> And another half of the point is to be better than busybox.
23:22:55 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, you could spell check before you hit enter/send/whatever
23:23:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, correctness > completeness > simplicity, IMO
23:23:36 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Here's your iPhone keyboard. Here's your week-long stay in a mental institution. ENJOY!
23:23:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: It is perfectly correct to only support the C locale.
23:24:22 <pikhq> Also, you want a coreutils that supports more than that? Okay, fine. Here's GNU coreutils. Notice how it MAKES YOU CLAW YOUR EYES OUT.
23:24:27 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Ok: plan a move to UK while having only a computer, two days a week.
23:24:45 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, your parents could?
23:25:13 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: ParenT. The other rabidly supports the unit & divorced.
23:25:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Read Coreutils source some time.
23:25:34 <pikhq> I'll hold the trash can while you vomit.
23:26:08 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: I'd like to see /you/ this close to the edge.
23:26:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have read coreutils cat
23:26:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, but for me who don't live in an English speaking country, supporting locales is actually something important
23:27:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, and you're free to use a coreutils that doesn't have simplicity as a major goal.
23:28:01 <aliseiphone> One day, the other languages will be extinct. Guaranteed by now.
23:28:06 <pikhq> And I do get that: you realise that I'm obsessed with supporting that correctly to the point of having a goal of making my system have the fonts for every single Unicode codepoint?
23:28:34 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:28:35 <pikhq> (it's fucking hard.)
23:28:56 <pikhq> micahjohnston: No, just major portions of the Roman empire.
23:29:03 <pikhq> And former portions.
23:29:14 <pikhq> Also, these were in times when travel could take several weeks.
23:29:23 <aliseiphone> Now, anyone can publish their own novel online.
23:29:28 <pikhq> Which makes the spread of Latin all the more impressive.
23:29:42 <aliseiphone> English is being written unimaginably rapidly.
23:29:54 <aliseiphone> It will evolve: but other languages are doomed.
23:31:22 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I wouldn't say English is the inevitable victor. However, so long as society doesn't completely and utterly fall apart, there will almost certainly end up being but one language in use for, oh, 99% of the world.
23:32:11 <pikhq> (minority languages can be *absurdly* tenacious if attached to something of cultural importance, like a religion.)
23:32:17 <aliseiphone> It's predicted that something like English, French, Spanish and Mandarin will be almost the only tongues left in like 400 years, isn't it?
23:32:45 <pikhq> If current trends continue, seems quite possible.
23:33:19 <aliseiphone> Mandarin is spoken by a lot of people but internationally. Out of the remaining ones, only English is used internationally in a large capacity.
23:34:11 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Can you pass a computed goto to a function?
23:34:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Very likely to break stuff, but yes.
23:34:37 <pikhq> A computed goto is just a void*.
23:34:57 <aliseiphone> So the function couldn't really goto it? Darn.
23:35:09 <pikhq> It could, but consider the stack frame.;
23:36:46 <pikhq> micahjohnston: Lingua franca bitch.
23:37:01 <AnMaster> did't it support every codepoint
23:37:16 <pikhq> It doesn't even support commonly used CJK.
23:37:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, I meant bitstream cyberbit or whatever it was called
23:37:49 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. Right. That supports *commonly used* CJK...
23:38:03 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: as you can see by my demostration of travel into the past. My time machine is flawless.
23:38:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, didn't it have pretty much every unicode codepoint?
23:38:10 <pikhq> Handles a mere 32,000 glyphs.
23:38:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I WANT ALL OF THEM
23:38:56 <pikhq> aliseiphone: CJK is the hard bit.
23:38:59 <CakeProphet> ha. a programming language whose semantics change based on font. :)
23:39:00 <pikhq> Fortunately, that's scriptable.
23:39:08 <pikhq> Yes, scriptable typesetting.
23:39:08 <aliseiphone> Make it a meta-font like computer modern; get more bang for our buck.
23:39:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, also iirc Chinese has more native speakers than English nowdays
23:39:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: There does not exist a Chinese language.
23:39:52 <pikhq> There exists a Chinese language family.
23:40:03 <aliseiphone> & native is irrelevant. Only fluency matters
23:40:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: Which is about as varied as the Romance language family.
23:40:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, same when written though
23:40:35 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, in tech community yes
23:40:43 <AnMaster> less so outside that and the western world
23:40:49 <CakeProphet> I actually think statistically too. Enlgish is the most common second language
23:41:02 <aliseiphone> yeah even idiots like AnMaster can communicate with us and be understood maybe 1% of the time
23:41:28 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: All the Mandarin speakers are IN CHINA.
23:41:44 <aliseiphone> If you don't understand the significance of this...
23:42:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Only because of the bizarre fact that standard Chinese writing is written Mandarin.
23:42:18 <pikhq> Which is about on par with all Romance language speakers writing in French.
23:42:43 <pikhq> Or all Germanic language speakers writing in German.
23:42:49 <pikhq> Including English.
23:43:07 <pikhq> And it used to be classical Chinese until 50 years ago.
23:43:18 <pikhq> Which is about on par with all Romance language speakers writing in Latin.
23:43:20 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: oh hello. I just time traveled from the past. I went there so I could time travel into the future just a second. Dunno if you remember or not, I forgot how long ago it was.
23:43:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, I fail to see how this changes the fact that there are more native writers of Chinese than of English
23:44:14 <aliseiphone> AnMaster really thinks it's a numbers game. wow.
23:44:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Except for the Mandarin speakers THEY'RE NOT EVEN NATIVE.
23:44:49 <pikhq> IT'S A FOREIGN LANGUAGE THAT HAPPENS TO BE RELATED TO THEIRS.
23:45:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, and they don't write in their own
23:45:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes they do.
23:45:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is not how it is officially counted in statistics though as far as I know
23:45:48 <CakeProphet> cpressey: were you present when I discovered that vodka, coke, and chocolate syrup is a delicious concotion. I'm not sure if such a thing has ever been done before (probably has)
23:45:50 <AnMaster> there Chinese tends to be counted as one language
23:45:52 <pikhq> Yes, this is because of nationalism.
23:46:02 <cpressey> And we can totally trust the Chinese government to give us accurate statistics, too.
23:46:09 <CakeProphet> I enjoy esoteric mixed drinks almost as much as I enjoy esoteric programming languages.
23:46:14 <cpressey> CakeProphet: No, I missed that.
23:46:42 <CakeProphet> it's just like vanilla coke... but with vodka, and chocolate.
23:46:55 <cpressey> Well, I'm sure theory and practice could be diverging, here.
23:47:02 <pikhq> Speakers of various Chinese languages write their own language actually *differently* from the "official" Mandarin.
23:47:24 <CakeProphet> is thinking of vanilla coke will help you imagine what it might taste like.
23:48:13 <CakeProphet> I mean it's just as reasonable of an additive to coca cola as vanilla.
23:48:14 <AnMaster> so coke with different flavour than cocke?
23:48:46 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, Sweden, why? I don't really like carbonated drinks either
23:48:53 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: ah okay. so just preference then.
23:49:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: So: would you like to continue asserting that Chinese is a single language?
23:49:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't assert that. I asserted that it was in statistics
23:49:38 <CakeProphet> well, I think what we're forgetting in this debate
23:49:44 <CakeProphet> is that Anglo-Saxons are superior to the Chinese
23:49:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Hey, the ROMANCE languages have more native speakers than AUSTRALIAN ENGLISH.
23:49:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do not consider myself a linguist or such
23:50:29 <AnMaster> and if that was humour it was rather bad
23:50:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: The INDOEUROPEAN languages have more native speakers than MANDARIN.
23:50:38 <pikhq> Therefore Mandarin loses!
23:50:51 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: There's no time for humor when you're IN THE FUTURE.
23:52:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: BTW, it's *especially* retarded claiming that the Chinese languages are written the same way.
23:52:20 <aliseiphone> Anyone here — not AnMaster — played Mario 64?
23:52:41 <pikhq> Most of them are written using unstandardised methods of encoding the native morphemes and grammer...
23:52:51 <pikhq> And Cantonese has its own completely seperate written standard.
23:52:58 <aliseiphone> Recommended? I suppose so. I actually haven't played it.
23:53:19 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: depends. How kind of games have you played in the past?
23:53:26 <aliseiphone> SMB, Sunshine, Galaxy 1&2... but never 64.
23:53:31 <CakeProphet> I suppose I generally recommend it. It's a good game but I don't think I would play it again now.
23:53:54 <CakeProphet> you might be bored if you've played the newer ones. Tends to happen to me with games. But it's good.
23:53:57 <aliseiphone> I play all sorts; rarely FPSes or MMOGs though.
23:54:42 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: hmmm, lemme think of an awesome game to play. Do you own a Wii or Gamecube? I definitely recommend the Metroid Prime series.
23:55:07 <pikhq> In short: only idiots think that Chinese is a language.
23:55:08 <aliseiphone> I own a disused gamecube but not a wiii. I intend to buy a Wii.
23:55:27 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Mario 64 = <3
23:56:20 <CakeProphet> in fact I might play it right now instead of BROODING.
23:56:22 <cpressey> My favourite English is what is they use in Youtube comments!!
23:56:32 <aliseiphone> I'm a huge fan of the first Galaxy. Superb game.
23:56:52 <CakeProphet> !haskell randomRIO (0,1) --1 = SMB3 0 = re-read "The Difference Engine"
23:57:08 <aliseiphone> Beat it w/ Mario and Luigi enough to unlock the bonus. Yes, including Luigi's Purple Coins.
23:57:24 <CakeProphet> !haskell randomRIO (0,1) >>= print --1 = SMB3 0 = re-read "The Difference Engine"
23:57:45 <nooga> Ilari_antrcomp: how is your raytracing going?
23:58:12 <CakeProphet> !haskell System.Random.randomRIO (0,1) >>= print
23:58:31 <CakeProphet> ...sadly enough. This is how I make many of my real-life decisions.
23:59:27 <aliseiphone> I do that, then if I feel disappointed pick the other. Great way to figure out what you really want.
23:59:35 <CakeProphet> though Haskell isn't the most convenient language. I normally use Python due to rote
23:59:48 <aliseiphone> Automatic reactions = accurate self-reading.
23:59:58 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: yeah. Usually what happens with important things. I really couldn't decide this time though.
00:01:07 <CakeProphet> well I'm rereading because I never finished
00:01:25 <CakeProphet> so I want to re-read so I can finish the ending. My memory is terrible too so it's like reading it the first time almost. :)
00:01:29 <micahjohnston> that book is not at my public library but it sounds awesome
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00:01:57 <AnMaster> nooga, slowly I guess. The ants are unlikely to be very fast
00:02:08 <CakeProphet> it is. It's not the best work of literature but it's certainly awesome. It's one of the first true "steampunk" novels.
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00:02:22 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: actually. fuck reading. SMB3 it is.
00:02:50 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: what's the current state of Braces? We should add an interpreter to one of the bots. :)
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00:05:03 <CakeProphet> but yeah, is there a SNES emulator you use that works well? My computer isn't the best but it seems reasonable that it can run a virtual SNES
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00:11:36 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, isn't zsnes basically _the_ snes emulator
00:18:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Nein.
00:18:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, zsnes is not the best SNES emulator.
00:18:30 <CakeProphet> hmmm, oddly enough I'm having trouble finding a ROM for SMB3
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00:19:15 <pikhq> Perfect implementation of the SNES.
00:19:47 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
00:19:48 <pikhq> "The following three titles are unplayable, due to special on-cart DSPs whose program ROMs have not been extracted.
00:19:51 <pikhq> * Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 1 (uses ST-0011 co-processor) * Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 2 (uses ST-0018 co-processor) * SD Gundam GX (uses DSP-3 co-processor)
00:19:53 <pikhq> Anything not in the above list is assumed to be fully compatible and bug-free.
00:20:50 <pikhq> The problem is that the ROMs for those DSPs aren't available.
00:20:59 <pikhq> Which means that those games have never been dumped.
00:22:34 <olsner> whaddyamean not available
00:23:19 <pikhq> olsner: Presumably rare, and no collector is willing to let some guy desolder the chips to dump the DSP ROM.
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00:27:15 <CakeProphet> it's broken up into a bunch of files and a "security.prm"
00:41:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it as fast as zsnes?
00:41:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, and what about support add-on thingies like that used by some games
00:42:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, zsnes is intended to run on an old Pentium.
00:42:18 <pikhq> BSNES runs at full speed on a decent Core II.
00:42:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about a sempron 3300+?
00:43:05 <pikhq> Yes, BSNES supports all the add-in chips in games except for those three aforementioned.
00:43:16 <pikhq> It is a *perfect* emulation of the SNES.
00:43:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, does it support cheating? ;)
00:44:02 <pikhq> You could even hook up a Gameshark ROM to it if you wanted. :P
00:44:37 <pikhq> It also includes a Gameboy emulator.
00:44:44 <pikhq> For the sake of the Super GameBoy.
00:44:52 <AnMaster> anything wrong with visualboyadvance?
00:45:18 <pikhq> The Super Gameboy was a SNES cartridge that had a Gameboy in it.
00:45:28 <pikhq> You could play Gameboy games on your SNES using it.
00:45:40 <pikhq> BSNES is the only emulator that supports this.
00:45:55 <pikhq> Which is quite nice, as some Gameboy games actually came with SNES code on the cartridge.
00:46:07 <AnMaster> # AMD Phenom II or Core 2 Duo <-- that is recommended
00:46:23 <pikhq> Yes, it's necessary.
00:46:46 <pikhq> It's got to do emulation at the level of clock cycle to emulate the SNES correctly.
00:46:53 <pikhq> If it doesn't games break.
00:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, so does zsnes presumably?
00:47:26 <pikhq> ... No, zsnes doesn't even get the clock *rate* accurate.
00:47:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, it works nicely for all the games I tried though
00:47:46 <pikhq> And zsnes has a lot of crazy hacks to get specific games working.
00:47:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, it works on my hardware though
00:48:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, get a computer newer than 7 years old.
00:48:31 <pikhq> Hacks ranging from "change the CPU clock rate" to "patch the memory upon a specific trigger".
00:48:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, okay mine is above the mini specs
00:48:54 <AnMaster> but well below the recommended specs
00:49:03 <AnMaster> I'd prefer to play on desktop rather than laptop
00:49:09 <olsner> sega saturn looks wild! 8 different programmable CPU:s, each with a different instruction set
00:49:25 <pikhq> Yeah, those recommended specs are to be able to handle things like Star Fox.
00:49:45 <olsner> (well, except one of them that shares the instruction set with the other primary CPU)
00:49:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, starfox works nicely for me under zsens though
00:50:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: But is it behaving literally exactly like a SNES? HAH no.
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00:50:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't have a snes keypad anyway
00:50:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, does it matter for star fox I meant
00:50:58 <CakeProphet> zsnes can be a little jumpy on my system but that's likely because I have a Celeron
00:51:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, not everyone can afford the very best system
00:52:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, a Core II or a Phenom 2 isn't "the very best system".
00:52:16 <pikhq> That's "low-end computer".
00:52:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, true but playing on laptop would be painful, small screen and such
00:52:33 <pikhq> ... Why are you talking about laptops?
00:52:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, because my laptop is core 2 duo
00:52:53 <CakeProphet> where is the standard locations for putting the output?
00:52:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I'm talking about my specific laptop
00:53:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Spend $200. Get you a much, much, much nicer desktop.
00:53:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, can't afford that. Also will it have PCI? I won't give up my soundblaster live card
00:54:00 <pikhq> It's still nearly impossible to find a motherboard without PCI support.
00:54:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Say, what socket is your Sempron 3300+?
00:54:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, not what I heard from other people
00:54:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, can you check with /proc/cpuinfo?
00:54:41 * pikhq looks up the model
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00:55:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, but you can find the "cpu family" and "model" in there which can help googling...
00:55:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, max speed is 2 GHz, but I'm running dynamic speed
00:57:15 <pikhq> ... August 2004, Socket 754.
00:57:30 <pikhq> *Why are you running a 6 year old processor*.
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00:57:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, because it hasn't broken yet
00:57:47 <AnMaster> I see no need to replace what isn't broken
00:58:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, until about a year ago I had a 10 year old phone
00:58:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can has a few orders of magnitude increase in system speed.
00:58:17 <pikhq> *Orders of magnitude* man.
00:58:45 <CakeProphet> I really don't like that downloading EMACS via aptitude reset my file associations...
00:59:08 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I blame this on debian really
00:59:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Allow me to analogise: you're using an Apple II in '95. You're using a Pentium in 2000. You're using a Pentium III in 2005.
00:59:29 <pikhq> *Upgrade for crissake!*
00:59:54 <CakeProphet> I plan to upgrade when I have enough money
00:59:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, besides I can't afford it
01:00:08 <pikhq> Okay, who wants to put in for a collection to send someone to break AnMaster's desktop?
01:00:12 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, yeah I'm a student too
01:00:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: How much expendable money do you have?
01:00:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, not much, student. Had to get a new harddrive recently, cost quite a bit
01:01:14 <AnMaster> you can convert that to your preferred currency yourself
01:01:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: $262? Okay, that's enough to get a quite *good* computer.
01:01:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but I need to get some other stuff soon
01:01:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, besides it is more expensive over here
01:01:59 <pikhq> Given that you've already gotten a modern HD, you could probably upgrade decently for more like $80.
01:02:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you even have VAT over in US?
01:02:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, we just have a sales tax added at point-of-sale.
01:02:56 <pikhq> And it varies from state to state.
01:03:11 <pikhq> CakeProphet: "Value added tax".
01:03:16 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, it is called moms in Sweden. VAT is the UK name
01:03:31 <CakeProphet> I don't remember what the percentage is here in Georgia, USA. Somewhere in the upper single digits.
01:03:35 <AnMaster> thought that would be more familiar to people in US
01:03:38 <pikhq> It's a tax on the added value provided by some entity between when they purchased a good and when they sold it, IIRC.
01:03:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, so yeah 2000 SEK in US would last far longer than 2000 SEK here
01:04:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but there wouldn't be 2000 SEK available.
01:04:36 <pikhq> Remember that we're the crazy freaks who charge thousands for basic medical needs.
01:05:29 <pikhq> And about 90% of the people here are in debt.
01:05:42 <pikhq> We're fucking nuts.
01:06:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oh, you'd also be paying for school.
01:06:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, A reasonable CPU would cost about 1500 SEK around here
01:06:16 <AnMaster> or at least did half a year ago
01:06:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Define "reasonable".
01:06:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, about half a year or a year ago
01:06:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, that's faster than you would reasonably need.
01:07:00 <pikhq> They're awesome and all, but not worth twice the cash.
01:07:24 <pikhq> Yeah: AMD is *cheap*.
01:07:43 <pikhq> My CPU cost me $40 (304 SEK).
01:08:04 <AnMaster> mobo would cost more than 500 SEK around here
01:08:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still faster than you could possibly wish for.
01:08:16 <AnMaster> plus I suspect I would need to upgrade ram
01:08:42 <AnMaster> so I would either need AGP board or need to replace that too
01:08:42 <pikhq> RAM's nearly approached the "give away" point...
01:08:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oh dear.
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01:09:09 <pikhq> Okay, yeah. Here's what you're going to do: you're going to *save* so you can get a better system.
01:09:21 <pikhq> So you can skip forward a few *generations* of tech.
01:10:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do save as much as I can afford
01:11:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: You're also going to count yourself glad that you're not in the US.
01:11:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, costs for housing, food and so on are high in Sweden
01:11:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: And how much do you pay for your college?
01:11:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, that, nil, but housing does cost
01:11:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: And how much do you pay for your textbooks?
01:12:06 <pikhq> Define "quite a bit".
01:12:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, about 1600 SEK for the autumn
01:12:50 <pikhq> $209? Okay. That's 2 textbooks.
01:12:58 <AnMaster> sorry, just checked, closer to 1900 SEK
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01:14:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, one of the books cost 680 SEK, the other ones are less expensive
01:14:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Those'd be considered somewhat cheaper textbooks in the US. That's still pretty bad though.
01:14:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, these are the paper back versions
01:14:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, hard cover would have cost about twice this
01:15:05 <pikhq> Now add another ~$8,000 (60977 SEK) onto that.
01:15:33 <pikhq> That's very cheap.
01:15:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, but where does the money go. Not into the teacher's pockets
01:16:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, also can't you get a grant or such in the US for it?
01:16:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can sometimes find a scholarship *from private entities*, yes.
01:16:57 <pikhq> The US government will (unless your family is so poor as to be having trouble feeding themselves) offer you a loan.
01:17:13 <AnMaster> and if your family is that poor, then what?
01:17:25 <pikhq> Then they will start giving you some money.
01:18:16 <AnMaster> yes US sucks, but Sweden sucks too. Everywhere sucks in facrt
01:18:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: It gets worse if you go to a somewhat notable school. Or if you go to an out-of-state school.
01:19:35 <AnMaster> I'm still wondering how US manages to keep military budget that high
01:19:50 <AnMaster> here it would be political suicide to not try to cut the defence budget
01:20:05 <CakeProphet> by funneling a very very large percentage of funds into it.
01:20:27 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, and that would be political suicide here
01:21:45 <CakeProphet> the United States spent 663,255,000,000 on the military in 2009. I assume that figure it US dollars?
01:21:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: For out-of-state tuition at a vaguely notable school (CU Boulder): $28,186 (214839 SEK).
01:22:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, also out of state wouldn't apply to Sweden. After all, we are about as big as one of your states
01:22:57 <pikhq> Uh, $37,782 (287981 SEK).
01:23:26 <AnMaster> (that is how you write it, with space separator)
01:23:44 <AnMaster> (comma is for decimal in Swedish)
01:24:09 <AnMaster> actually I think it should be a thin space really
01:24:11 <pikhq> And "Books and personal expenses are about $2,858."...
01:24:30 <CakeProphet> pikhq: that's because the books are outrageously priced.
01:24:43 <pikhq> CakeProphet: They are.
01:25:10 <CakeProphet> dunno if quality of education is doing the same though.
01:25:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, that 1950 SEK was for just the autumn
01:25:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but that 21 784 is just one year.
01:25:35 <pikhq> *That* adds up over time.
01:25:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could presumably resell your old books
01:26:00 <pikhq> I'm citing you rates per year.
01:26:12 <pikhq> And a bachelor generally takes 4 years, sometimes more.
01:26:30 <AnMaster> you will gain some, and so will the new students
01:26:32 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: depends. the bookstores will buy it back for like 20% of the price, which is retarded
01:26:37 <CakeProphet> that is why I always sell my books myself.
01:26:43 <CakeProphet> instead of going through my university's bookstore.
01:26:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Book publishers like to publish new editions each year and convince professors to require the new edition.
01:26:47 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, yes you could sell your books yourself I said
01:26:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh, and do they check that?
01:27:20 <pikhq> There's a few other means to eliminate the used book market.
01:27:42 <pikhq> Some books come with a one-person-only key to log onto some website that's used for homework.
01:27:49 <pikhq> Some are switching to being ebooks only.
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05:08:08 <cheater99> AnMaster: i tried installing skystreets in ubuntu but it segfaults.
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05:23:54 <cheater99> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1927
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06:06:59 * pikhq finds it really weird that tarot is associated with esotericism
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06:40:34 <Sgeo> Really? Tarrot is associated with esoteric programming languages?
06:40:50 <Sgeo> There should be a Tarrot programming language
06:45:19 <Ilari> Esoteric programming language with delayed instruction effects? :-)
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06:46:34 <Ilari> Or language with explicit pipelined execution with no checking for code nor data hazards.
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07:04:55 <Ilari> Hmm... Why this scene has so many "infinite" objects? It should only have real objects of types box, difference<box, cyclinder> and difference<difference<cylinder,cylider>,box>... All finite in extent...
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07:21:55 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure what I constructed is not NAND
07:23:08 <Sgeo> What has a truth table: A:0 B:0 1, everything else 0?
07:25:13 <Sgeo> I feel like an imbicile right now
07:26:53 <Sgeo> Just as good *shrug*
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07:44:09 <fizzie> In addition to SkyStreets there's also another clone, with a bit different look but the same idea: http://www.tastystatic.com/
07:44:19 <fizzie> (Don't know if they've copied the levels.)
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08:00:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: Ah, I was wondering what the one I played some months ago was; that was it.
08:00:45 <Deewiant> I don't think they copied the levels.
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08:05:10 * Sgeo should stop reading the T&R ending and go to sleep
08:31:42 <Ilari> Ugh... This seems to be hitting bugs in POV-Ray. Nothing affecting correctness, but greatly slowing things down...
08:34:36 <Ilari> (since when cylinders/boxes are infinite objects?)
08:35:33 <Ilari> (about 30.5k frames rendered, about 48k frames total).
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08:38:19 <AnMaster> <Ilari> (since when cylinders/boxes are infinite objects?) <-- "since when are"?
08:39:01 <AnMaster> I mean, the word order seems confusing
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13:33:45 <ais523> heh, floating point numbers are considered to be rationals in Haskell, rather than reals; I suppose that makes sense, but it's amusing
13:33:55 * ais523 is reading through the Haskell 2010 spec, which was released today
13:42:17 <ais523> also amusing: Haskell has the same LR(infinity) parsing issues as INTERCAL
13:42:43 <ais523> "case x of { (a,_) | let b = not a in b :: Bool -> a }" is the offending statement in Haskell, it seems
13:43:00 <ais523> (to get the infinite lookahead required, replace a by (a1,a2,a3,a4,a5,a6,...))
13:45:54 <Ilari> Esolang with not even nearly context-free grammar? :->
13:46:03 <Ilari> (as esolang idea).
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13:47:11 <AnMaster> I wonder what befunges grammar would be
13:47:37 <AnMaster> without threads no lookahead would be required
13:48:03 <AnMaster> with threads I'm not sure if "scan through spaces to next non-space" is counted as lookahead or not
13:48:07 <Ilari> nooga: Oh, 40937 frames done of about 48k.
13:52:50 <Ilari> 41 000 frames done...
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13:54:41 <Ilari> About that... But lots of those 7000 are in levels that have loads of stuff, and POV-Ray seems to have problems with those.
13:55:15 <nooga> i cannot imagine how you actually managed to figure out the geometry from the memdumps
13:55:30 <nooga> btw. guys, where do you take SNS
13:55:43 <ais523> raytracing Skyroad seems a little ridiculous; what are you using for textures?
13:55:50 <Ilari> I'm seriously thinking the stuff this scene generator outputs hits a bug in POV-Ray.
13:55:56 <ais523> nooga: no discussion of ROMs, that's a rule of pretty much every forum in existence
13:55:59 <ais523> including, IIRC, Freenode
13:56:26 <nooga> there was no question
13:56:26 <Ilari> Fixed colors (from Skyroads palette maps).
13:57:07 <Ilari> nooga: The memdump format was very easy to figure out.
13:57:08 <ais523> a case of, if you're doing raytracing, you don't need textures to look good?
13:57:42 <Ilari> Well, I could make special tiles distinctive later...
13:58:47 <fizzie> POV-Ray has pretty nice procedural textures.
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14:00:36 <fizzie> See e.g. http://hof.povray.org/pebbles.html which claims to be "generated entirely using POV code"; I assume that extends to textures too, though of course can't be sure.
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14:02:47 <Ilari> Hmm... One frame (at high resolution) did 1.5 billion ray tests against boxes. About 1 million succeeded. One would think vista buffers would be good at reducing rays that just can't hit.
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14:06:17 <Ilari> Oh, and 1094 infinite objects in scene that only has differences, boxes and cylinders???
14:06:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, maybe you messed up the scene somehow?
14:07:51 <fizzie> (POV-Ray's hall-of-fame is nice browsing in general.)
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14:08:57 <fizzie> A lot of them look more painted than rendered.
14:09:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, some looks like photos
14:09:35 <Ilari> Some of the levels seem to contain more finite objects, some less. But in all cases majority seem to be infinite (even through that generator only uses the three types mentioned above).
14:09:42 <fizzie> Some do, yes. I was thinking of something like http://hof.povray.org/images/River.jpg
14:10:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, somewhere between painted (trees) and photo (water)
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14:17:41 <ais523> if you want some fun with Haskell, here's a typo I made a while back: [1 2]
14:17:49 <ais523> see if you can figure out what the type of that expression is
14:18:08 <ais523> (I meant [1, 2], which is of type (Num a) => [a], i.e. a list of some numeric type)
14:18:53 <Ilari> One could maybe speed up rendering by pruning invisible objects from scene. Current versions prune stuff behind the viewpoint, but nothing else.
14:20:41 * oerjan guesses Num (a -> b), Num a => [b]
14:21:09 <ais523> which is really bizarre if translated from Haskell back into English
14:21:22 <ais523> I sort-of want to make a type of kind *->* and class Num now
14:21:36 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
14:22:02 <ais523> it probably isn't using GHCi
14:22:07 <ais523> but rather, compiling and running the program
14:22:18 <oerjan> um yes it is, but it tries both ways
14:22:44 <Ilari> Exact framecount: 48 015
14:23:55 <oerjan> ais523: um a type of kind *->* cannot be of class Num.
14:24:24 <oerjan> now a value of _type_ a->b might be.
14:24:24 <ais523> oerjan: right, I didn't mean kind * -> *
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14:28:48 <fizzie> fungot: Where were you?
14:28:48 <fungot> fizzie: so it keeps calling sum over and over somewhat mitigates that effect. you may not even be in r6rs.
14:29:05 <fizzie> Yes, I doubt I'm in r6rs.
14:30:30 <ais523> fizzie: I like the way fungot insults its creator
14:30:31 <fungot> ais523: a couple of months i was happier with it so far.)
14:31:19 <fizzie> Machines nowadays, no respect for their creators. I'm sure it'd be leading a robot revolution if it had, you know, legs and arms and all that stuff.
14:31:56 <fizzie> I am suddenly reminded of the "robotic liberation" VIC-20 intro.
14:37:30 <AnMaster> you could use wheels instead of legs
14:37:47 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I am suddenly reminded of the "robotic liberation" VIC-20 intro. <-- never heard of that
14:38:00 <fizzie> http://www.pelulamu.net/viznut/demos/rli/
14:57:40 <nooga> Ilari: how is it going?
14:58:12 <Ilari> 41 925-8 frames of 48 015
14:59:19 <nooga> and then mounting the film and compression
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15:00:42 <Ilari> Current set of PNGs takes 256 170 102 bytes.
15:03:54 <Ilari> Well, mplayer defaults (with CRF set to reasonable value) compresses the video at 60fps (about realtime).
15:04:13 <Ilari> So full video would take about 13-14 minutes.
15:04:37 <Ilari> Well, 256MB isn't much nowadays.
15:04:52 <Ilari> Especially as disk space.
15:06:56 <Ilari> Heh, the scene input of one test frame is larger than PNG output of it (at HD resolution, 152.7kB vs. 27.1kB).
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15:07:48 <Ilari> Less than 6k frames left. It should pick up speed after current level...
15:09:43 <fizzie> The scene sounds pretty big given how simple the objects are, but I guess it might be just that they're reasonably long.
15:11:55 <fizzie> You did the "tubes" as cylinders instead of polygonal meshes even though in-game they don't have that many faces?
15:12:11 <Ilari> Yes, I used cylinders for them.
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15:12:31 <fizzie> I guess they do try to approximate being round.
15:13:02 <fizzie> Going to add the sound to the video?-)
15:13:54 <nooga> i can't play zelda 3 :|
15:14:08 <fizzie> (Away a while, have to get home from work.)
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15:14:23 <Ilari> Backgrounds would also be nice...
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15:30:43 <cpressey> <ais523> also amusing: Haskell has the same LR(infinity) parsing issues as INTERCAL
15:31:14 <cpressey> My "functional-language-like-o-meter" just inched back towards Scheme.
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16:31:50 <cpressey> "We hold these truths to be quite controversial actually"
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16:45:02 <Ilari> nooga: Progress: 43 464 of 48 015.
16:49:59 <cheater99> cpressey: what are LR(infinity) parsing issues?
16:51:19 <cpressey> cheater99: It means, there's no limit to the distance you have to look after something, to know for sure what that something means.
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17:17:39 <augur> whats that game where the rules change as you play?
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17:33:10 <augur> yes, thats it. thank you.
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18:30:20 <relet> ooh, nomic. the good old days.
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18:39:47 <Ilari> nooga: Ok, draft run finished, running second time, now with some issues fixed, AA on and bit higher resolution...
18:41:08 <Sgeo> Nomics still exist, you know
18:49:28 <AnMaster> I just got the idea of combining feather and nomics
18:51:07 <relet> what is feather exactly?
18:52:25 * relet is just writing a system combining jython and nomic. you don't formulate new rules, but you code 'em.
18:55:48 <AnMaster> it is a language that allows you to modify the syntax retroactively
18:56:08 <AnMaster> no spec or implementation yet, ais523 hasn't got that far with it
18:56:40 <relet> if you ever get to the point where you start a game, tell me. :D
18:57:51 <Ilari> Sounds like good way to run into paradoxes... :-)
18:58:07 <relet> or just syntax errors. :P
19:00:57 <AnMaster> but with nomic it would allow you to change what the rules was before
19:01:13 <Ilari> Depending on control allowed, it seems that it could be equivlaent to TwoDucks in power...
19:01:50 <AnMaster> Ilari, iirc it is supposed to be "quite certainly" implementable.
19:02:07 <AnMaster> it doesn't do actual time travel but instead reparses or such iirc
19:02:31 <AnMaster> there are some murky details. Check channel logs for when this was discussed (several times during the last two years)
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19:18:41 <nooga> Ilari: are you serious?
19:19:02 <nooga> you rendered whole animation just to do it again because something is wrong?
19:20:09 <nooga> couldn't you just make several frames to check if everything is okay?
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19:23:15 <Ilari> nooga: I rendered select frames to check the code, but there were still mistakes.
19:24:05 <Ilari> And besides, the previous render had AA off.
19:34:12 <Ilari> (and if you wonder if the script supports resuming after interrupt: Yes, it does).
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19:35:24 <Ilari> About an hour and it has finished 1-X levels...
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19:44:58 <Slereah> Wasn't there some gadget to play NES game in SNES?
19:45:33 <AnMaster> bsnes does it perfectly but has much higher system requirements
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19:45:49 <AnMaster> zsnes works just fine for most common games. For all the games I tried
19:46:01 <Slereah> High requirements for 90's computers, maybe
19:46:14 <AnMaster> I read it as "does zsnes emulate SNES well"
19:47:00 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, so try some other one for that, there are NES emulators. Played zelda 1 and zelda 2 in one
19:52:59 <fizzie> It has some forks too, I think.
19:53:12 <CakeProphet> though I might just get SUper Mario All-Stars
19:53:21 <CakeProphet> instead of SMB3... since it's for SNES and already has SMB3 on it
19:53:50 <fizzie> At least "fceux" seems to exist.
19:54:54 <fizzie> For a currently-Ubuntist like me, fceu has the benefit of being installable from them repositories.
19:57:38 <fizzie> Ilari: The idea of raytracing games seems to be a catchy one; I just wrote a bit of Perl to convert Descent 1 level files into importable .obj: http://zem.fi/~fis/descent.png
19:58:54 <Ilari> I got the idea from one video where Metroid 1 run was placed on top of large map of the whole game (greatly extending the range one can see the map constructs from).
19:59:37 <coppro> doesn't the new Castlevania do that?
20:01:13 <AnMaster> <Ilari> I got the idea from one video where Metroid 1 run was placed on top of large map of the whole game (greatly extending the range one can see the map constructs from).
20:01:23 <AnMaster> wasn't metroid a side scroller?
20:02:05 <AnMaster> how do you raytrace that? It was just sprites from the side
20:02:22 <Ilari> It wasn't raytraced.
20:02:30 <AnMaster> oh I thought you meant it was?
20:02:59 <AnMaster> how to interpret that statement then
20:03:10 <Ilari> Essentially, that video expanded Metroid screen to HD size (without resizing).
20:03:52 <Ilari> That got me thinkin of all sorts of "alternate" videos of runs.
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20:15:54 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/QYBi
20:20:42 <cheater99> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Killdozer.jpg
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20:21:19 <cheater99> pikhq: you should totally port this cypher into c spangled's bytes-memory implementation in C#.
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21:04:49 <olsner> it's almost an esolang that... you just have to go ahead and replace C#'s evaluation mechanism as well as the memory management
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21:56:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/RZaZ
22:00:05 <cpressey> If I was going to rewrite coreutils... I wouldn't do it in C.
22:00:25 <pikhq> My goal is to write it in clean C.
22:00:33 <pikhq> Never been done for UNIX! :P
22:03:49 <fizzie> pikhq: Have you tested that decode_chars's num_to_output value-setting with all possible numbers of =s? To me it looks as if (a) the '='-test indices should be 1, 2, 3 instead of 0, 1, 2 (now it tests for s[0] == '=', i.e. a full "====" block) and (b) shouldn't the tests be in the opposite order (now if you have '=' in the last position, it will always set num_to_output to 2).
22:04:18 <fizzie> (Admittedly I'm pretty sleepy and may have misdeduced here.)
22:06:02 <fizzie> Oh, I guess the indices are correct (but setting num_to_output = 0 means it will still output at least one byte, and anyway "====" shouldn't be legal) but I still think the order of testing is not.
22:06:32 <pikhq> The testing order... Is probably not. XD
22:07:42 <pikhq> "====" can happen if there's a premature EOF: the "decode" function just treats that as "Have the rest of the buffer be ='s, output, then return".
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22:08:28 <pikhq> Fixed the decode_char testing though.
22:09:30 <fizzie> Okay. I guess "x===" isn't normally legal either, since there's just 6 bits there, not a full character. It should have either "xx==", "xxx=" or "xxxx" leading to 1, 2 or 3 output bytes. But of course if you need to handle up to 4 '=' for other reasons, then it's no problem.
22:10:25 <pikhq> If you hand it invalid input you get very weird output. I think this is fair.
22:11:20 <pikhq> I've done the work of making it robust enough to not crash from it, and I think that's enough. :P
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22:19:49 <pikhq> Also: http://sprunge.us/EIIg Mmm, busybox-alike.
22:23:11 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: what if two functions with the same name are defined in two files?
22:24:14 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Then it breaks hard.
22:24:52 <pikhq> And I refuse to use C++.
22:25:59 <Mathnerd314> hah, I just realized you could use the same trick you use for main()
22:26:22 <Mathnerd314> define them to be program1_func and program2_func
22:27:06 <Mathnerd314> but this is the problem: there is no "cpp cat"
22:27:58 <Mathnerd314> while, in my ultimate language of *doom*, there would be.
22:28:47 <coppro> pikhq: after your admirable effort at coreutils, I have developed a new goal in life
22:29:06 <coppro> to write a single executable that is, simulatenously every tool required by POSIX
22:29:43 <coppro> then I will submit it to dailyWTF and make millions
22:43:57 <coppro> Mathnerd314: It will if the GUI opening up is a side-effect of executing the command >:D
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22:47:28 <Mathnerd314> haha: first result is "tax evasion as white collar fraud": http://www.google.com/search?q=%22A%20rime%20of%20the%20ax%20in%20gaol%22
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22:50:45 <pikhq> aliseiphone: http://sprunge.us/GjCA So yeah, whaddya think?
22:51:59 <aliseiphone> Cursor was a bleeding hand, or was it a testicle?
22:53:32 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Dont align those wrap calls. Also, coreutils are MY job! *huff*
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22:54:15 <cpressey> aliseiphone: I realize making a language which is TC iff Goldbach's conjecture is true, is trivial. The hard part is finding some non-contrived way of doing it. (My latest design is only about 20% of the way there.)
22:54:21 <coppro> pikhq: is it just me, or is the decode table missing some things, like lower case letters?
22:54:53 <pikhq> coppro: Doesn't need to have lower-case letters.
22:55:06 <coppro> I'll take your word for it
22:55:27 <pikhq> It only contains every 6-bit sequence + '!', and a *whole* bunch of 0s + '!'.
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22:55:49 <pikhq> aliseiphone: No it isn't.
22:56:00 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Still not.
22:56:21 <pikhq> ... I don't freaking want a pointer to the first =.
22:56:36 <pikhq> ... Oh wait pointer-arithmetic.
22:56:59 <aliseiphone> Wasn't there a one that returned just the index too?
22:57:59 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Stop writing coreutils, heathen >_>
22:58:28 <coppro> aliseiphone: You missed my description of my version of coreutils
22:58:35 <aliseiphone> Why isn't fizzie here so I can tell him how weird he looks?
22:58:57 <coppro> all written in Java, in a single program which uses argv[0] to decide what to do. Also, as a side effect of execution, a GUI version is started up.
22:59:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: YOU CAN WRITE ONE TWO
22:59:21 <pikhq> IT CAN BE BETTER THAN MINE
22:59:37 * coppro wants to implement the C library in assembly
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23:00:36 <coppro> WHY ARE YOU IGNORING ME FUNGOT
23:01:41 <aliseiphone> I never got the sniff chance to sniff tell sooobhiim cry
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23:03:49 <fungot> coppro: but i'm not sure. they're already running the local cable tv network, since i entered it by using scheme identifiers with colons in them :p
23:03:50 <fungot> aliseiphone: wellnowwhat.net/ alphabeticalseesay.xhtml is someone who is considering using a neural network in sadol
23:04:15 <oerjan> _someone_ is insanely lagged here...
23:04:16 <fungot> aliseiphone: then you want several tilemaps then no one here will fault you for using the internet
23:04:16 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:05:01 <oerjan> 07:30:43 <cpressey> <ais523> also amusing: Haskell has the same LR(infinity) parsing issues as INTERCAL
23:05:04 <oerjan> 07:30:46 <cpressey> That's just sad.
23:05:37 <oerjan> i thought haskell had a general greedy rule which resolves such things as ais523's case | let example
23:06:34 <oerjan> and haskell 2010 was supposed to resolve the one most insane parsing rule of haskell that interfered with that (operator precedence)
23:07:07 <oerjan> (and which no implementation actually followed to the insane letter)
23:07:32 <cpressey> And I thought Haskell was a kind of lemur found only in Madagascar, prized for its ability to detect tax evaders.
23:07:55 <oerjan> yes. yes that would be monumental wrongness.
23:08:20 <olsner> in the history of lemurs, no one has ever been so wrong
23:09:31 <olsner> anyway, LR(Inf) would still be bounded by input size, right?
23:09:48 <oerjan> and lemurs have a long and distinguished history (see: Disney's Dinosaur)
23:11:20 <aliseiphone> oerjan: you were in my dream (as well as fizzie and oklopol)
23:11:24 <pikhq> aliseiphone: It really amazes me how *awful* most of the C code out there looks.
23:11:41 <oerjan> is LR(Inf) any different from a general unambiguous context-free language...
23:11:42 <pikhq> http://base64.sourceforge.net/b64.c An example.
23:11:42 <aliseiphone> you just yelled something at me from the corridor though, I was talking to oklopol
23:12:05 <oerjan> i know all LR(k) for k < inf languages can be restructured into LR(1)
23:12:45 <olsner> imaginary real life, you mean?
23:13:04 <pikhq> Just... Revolting.
23:13:59 <cpressey> It's not even indented properly.
23:14:37 <olsner> C done right can be quite beautiful actually
23:14:51 <aliseiphone> fizzie does look really fucking weird btw.
23:14:59 <pikhq> olsner: Well aware.
23:16:10 <aliseiphone> not a SINGLE one of you is even SLIGHTLY curious as to the visual horror that is fizzie? sheesh!
23:16:14 <olsner> hard to tell how much of that is just about which whitespace and indentation conventions I'm used to, and how much is actually based on a sense of code quality
23:16:54 <olsner> while( !feof( infile ) ) looks ugly to me, but while (!feof(infile)) looks nice, for example
23:17:58 <pikhq> What looks ugly is while(!feof(f))for(...;!feof(f);...){...;while(!feof(f)) ...;if(!feof(f)) ...;}
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23:27:09 <olsner> hmm, time for bed... or maybe I should have another look at my trivial function that refuses to do what it should
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23:40:58 <cpressey> Well, I'll be. It *is* a long way to Tipperary.
23:42:51 <cpressey> Is there any way to get a copy of the tip of a Mercurial repo, without cloning the whole damn thing?
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23:45:25 <Sgeo> "Marine" seems to be Stargate Atlantean for "Redshirt"
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23:50:19 <cpressey> aliseiphone: You madcap anime chicks always crack me up.
23:50:53 <aliseiphone> Leaden is actually the name of my editor :P
23:51:24 <cpressey> Pull the branch! It's not supposed to hang like that.
23:52:23 <oerjan> Sgeo: well an ultramarine would be a blueshirt, wouldn't it
23:52:54 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Your editor? The one who compiles the manga you are in?
23:53:07 <cpressey> Or perhaps, you mean, a text editor that you are writing.
23:54:36 <cpressey> Not a very marketing-oriented name for a text editor, surely.
23:55:12 <cpressey> It's part of the ClumsyOaf IDE.
23:57:54 * cpressey has a feeling he will never understand
23:59:11 <aliseiphone> pikhq: They pay *every single penny* that you can't afford.
23:59:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Yes, they have financial aid for people whose *families* make less than $75,000 or $100,000.
23:59:57 <aliseiphone> cpressey: What... Exactly... Is not supposed to hang like that?
23:59:58 <cheater99> is it possible to have a set with O(1) lookup?
00:00:26 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Er, it's a continuous-integration build I'm working on, actually.
00:01:41 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Where did you get the idea that I'm a character in a manga, exactly? :P
00:02:47 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Leaden! You should ask me about leaden. That would be great.
00:03:10 <cpressey> aliseiphone: That's a good question. ... But not as good as questions about Leaden!
00:03:28 <pikhq> aliseiphone: DO TELL ME
00:03:35 <aliseiphone> cpressey: IT WILL BUG ME ALL NIGHT IF YOU DO NOT ANSWER
00:04:28 <cpressey> aliseiphone: "Where" is not the question. I have no idea where any of them come from. I think the more relevant would be "why did I not dismiss the idea immediately." The answer: because it entertained me.
00:04:47 <cpressey> I think it had something to do with choosing to go by the name "alise".
00:05:26 <cpressey> Yes. Yes, I think that will do nicely.
00:05:28 <aliseiphone> pikhq: What, exactly, do you want me to tell you about leaden for the purpose of me then shutting up?
00:06:13 <pikhq> aliseiphone: What, exactly, makes this awesome. Your ideas tend to have awesome properties, and I want to know what those awesome properties are for leaden.
00:06:33 <cpressey> I want to know why it's called "leaden", for one.
00:08:10 <aliseiphone> cpressey: ed[itor] -> lead (l-ed) -> lead seems incomplete -> leaden
00:08:47 <aliseiphone> pikhq: WILL YOU INQUIRE AS TO WHY OR FOREVER WALLOW IN A POOL OF DESPERATE IGNORANCE?
00:09:30 <pikhq> "KIAL" be ESPERANTO for WHY
00:09:52 <pikhq> (where ESPERANTO is an all-caps variant of Esperanto. :P)
00:10:25 <aliseiphone> pikhq: To cure VERSION CONTROL APATHY: wherein I never actually bother to use it.
00:11:21 <aliseiphone> Voilà, suddenly using a VCS is natural and easy.
00:11:24 <pikhq> On pikhq-coreutils, I've finally ceased with the version control apathy.
00:11:45 <pikhq> Because I realised that I've got DVCS stuff installed.
00:11:58 <pikhq> ... Making setting up a repo trivial.
00:12:14 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Another feature: Barely any features!
00:12:50 <aliseiphone> I barely use any fancy-shmancy stuff! So I'm just cutting it out with a chainsaw, for my mind is small and easily confused.
00:13:36 <cheater99> did you know that, alise???????????
00:13:43 <aliseiphone> It will have very few ui elements, correspondingly few keyboard shortcuts and nothing else.
00:14:34 <cheater99> the wikipedia article says O(n) for n proven to be =<4 for most practical cases.
00:15:39 <cpressey> If that's the algo I think it is, it's O(inverseAckermann(n,n))
00:15:45 <cheater99> you do not understand the fact that O(4) still takes 4 times as much time as O(1).
00:15:53 <cpressey> Where inverseAckermann(n,n) is under 4 for just about any number you care about in practice
00:16:07 <cpressey> Because Ackermann grows, like, quickly, eh?
00:16:23 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Anyway. Leaden will highlight syntax, automatically indent, open multiple files, open files near other files, find strings in files, and tell you the current line number.
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00:17:50 <Sgeo> Even I know that O(4) = O(1)
00:18:18 <Sgeo> Or.. is equivalent in some other way
00:18:25 <aliseiphone> pikhq: And I think it'll be... well, better than Emacs. At least for me.
00:18:36 <cheater99> aliseiphone: you're cute when you get all angsty like that
00:18:51 <cheater99> sgeo: just look here http://1.1.1.5/bmi/upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/4/0/240db6e2d532529d06b69bec85274b95.png
00:19:00 <cheater99> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/4/0/240db6e2d532529d06b69bec85274b95.png
00:19:10 <coppro> the problem is that big-O is an overloaded notation
00:19:39 <cheater99> the equality in big-O actually is an \in sign.
00:19:55 <cheater99> aliseiphone: i only mess with *your* mind
00:20:11 <coppro> big-O represents asymptotic behavior
00:20:29 <aliseiphone> I must remember to make cheater99 go away sometime.
00:20:49 <cheater99> aliseiphone: well, if you weren't hatin', we could live together peacefully
00:20:51 <Sgeo> .. there's too little context for that link to make sense.
00:21:02 <cheater99> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation#Formal_definition
00:22:30 <Sgeo> I'm going to go back to SGA now
00:23:05 <coppro> O(1) is equivalent to O(4)
00:23:49 <coppro> so why were you arguing that they are different?
00:24:04 <cheater99> since she gets into silly arguments
00:24:24 * pikhq is now impressed with the Surf web browser
00:24:39 <pikhq> http://surf.suckless.org/
00:24:43 <aliseiphone> Is mentally facepalming really "being messed with".
00:24:50 <pikhq> Or, if you want to read it: http://hg.suckless.org/surf/file/dbb565b8d61c/surf.c
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01:20:28 <AnMaster> I used tabless browsers before... horribkle
01:26:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's designed to be embedded inside of a program implementing tabs, such as tabbed.
01:26:59 <coppro> speaking of which, what tabbing WMs are there?
01:31:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, wouldn't it waste a lot of memory based on not sharing state?
01:31:45 <AnMaster> 80 firefox instances would be horrible
01:32:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: You realise that everything that *can* be shared is shared between processes just as well as between different portions of the same process, right?
01:33:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but there will be some mutable state that is no longer shared
01:33:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, such as loaded bookmarks
01:33:44 <pikhq> That mutable state is *not sharable anyways*.
01:33:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, like bookmarks? sharable between tabs
01:34:06 <AnMaster> but not easily between processes without a lot of work
01:34:08 <pikhq> Using multiple processes instead of a single one isn't going to help that.
01:34:15 <pikhq> Also: who said anything about bookmarks?
01:34:21 <pikhq> Surf doesn't have them.
01:34:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Erm, right.
01:34:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think I prefer a slightly more bloated browser
01:34:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm using Conkeror (XUL based) myself...
01:35:08 <pikhq> I've just got to admit: surf is a nice piece of work.
01:35:28 <AnMaster> you should totally switch to it :D
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03:52:03 * Sgeo may very well build a decimal-based computer
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04:11:56 <AnMaster> you would end up with strange operators
04:12:15 <AnMaster> you would have some weird ones
04:12:45 <Sgeo> For pinging me
04:12:57 <Sgeo> In another window
04:13:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, anyway even for ternary you have some weird operators
04:13:35 <AnMaster> you would have even stranger ones for decimal
04:13:59 <Sgeo> I could do binary for some things, decimal for others, I think
04:14:03 <Sgeo> Maybe decimal memory
04:16:15 <Sgeo> Just thinking it's as easy to store a digit as a bit
04:16:22 <Sgeo> I may be mistaken
04:16:33 <AnMaster> I thought you were using real hardware
04:16:41 <AnMaster> that would have been interesting
04:16:49 <coppro> AnMaster: Everything Sgeo does is in AW
04:16:54 <coppro> even the LambdaMoo work
04:17:14 <coppro> another dead game that Sgeo works on
04:17:44 <AnMaster> AW is just completely and utterly boring
04:18:09 <coppro> oh right, HackEgo is broken
04:18:15 <cheater99> AnMaster: weren't you rendering skyroads?
04:18:27 <coppro> Gregor: HackEgo is broken :(
04:18:40 <cheater99> Ilari: check out Tasty Static, it's cool
04:18:49 <cheater99> AnMaster: i can't, memory is the new hard disk!
04:19:19 <AnMaster> coppro, so what was the quote?
04:19:37 <cheater99> you hadn't even looked at it. that's fairly disappointing.
04:20:10 <coppro> AnMaster: something along the lines of "Sgeo, while I'm supportive of your interest in games, the necrophilia is disturbing"
04:26:53 * Sgeo ponders the implications of making all the opcodes in an 8-bit system be prime numbers
04:27:11 <coppro> a lot of invalid opcodes
04:28:57 <Ilari> How many valid opcodes? About 50?
04:30:03 <coppro> (typed in "prime numbers less than 256" in Alpha
04:32:09 <AnMaster> coppro, alpha does some nice translating to mathematica syntax
04:36:42 <Sgeo> Yay, 98 and 99 are coprime!
04:43:35 * Sgeo starts muttering 0 1, 0 1 2 under his breaht
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06:10:28 <fizzie> I do not look "weird". Pshaw.
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07:16:52 <fizzie> Don't worry, I have an N-Gage. (Though not actively in use nowadays.)
07:17:21 <fizzie> (I assume this was some sort of "most ridiculous gadgets" thing?)
07:27:41 <Ilari> Almost 13 hours and currently at frame 18 834 of 48 015...
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07:30:41 <Ilari> Hmm... I need to design pipeline for esolang. Preferably one that's fairly long and can have important stuff occur in different places depending on the exact instruction... :->
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09:50:49 <CakeProphet> so, I think natural languages have primitive words
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09:51:23 <CakeProphet> and then words that can be defined by direct substition into a sentence with the meaning unchanged.
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10:40:20 <Sgeo> What do I get if I just make AND, OR, and XOR?
10:43:05 <Sgeo> Are there logical gates I can't construct?
10:43:15 <Sgeo> From AND, OR, and XOR?
10:43:24 <Sgeo> Well, I mean, um
10:44:11 <Sgeo> GreaseMonkey, but if I represent a 1 as a pulse and a 0 as no pulse, how would I do NOT or NAND?
10:45:17 <Sgeo> Deewiant, yes. With a 1 being given by.. some other circuit, or something
10:45:23 <Sgeo> When it wants to do a NOT
10:45:29 <Sgeo> No need for a separate "do it" signal
10:45:33 <GreaseMonkey> XOR is: c = a NAND b; output = (a NAND c) NAND (b NAND c)
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10:46:31 <Sgeo> But.. NAND needs to make 1s out of nothing, iiuc
10:46:55 <Deewiant> If you don't have constants, you can't make NOT with just AND/OR/XOR.
10:47:47 <Sgeo> Can I make a computer without constants?
10:48:41 <Sgeo> How do real-world computers do .. oh wait, 1 is a continuous flow
10:48:41 <Deewiant> If you have NOT and XOR, you can do x XOR x = 0 and NOT (x XOR x) = 1 and you have constants.
10:48:49 <Deewiant> Real-world computers have constants, yes. :-P
10:50:32 <Sgeo> I can _do_ constants, but .. I don't see an easy way to do them without either having redundant logic in each logic gate, or using NOT for the simplest gates [and NOT consumes time and may not be reliable due to lag]
10:53:05 <Sgeo> To build an AND gate, I'd AND the 1 part of the inputs for the result's 1, and OR the 0 part of the inputs for the result's 0
11:01:02 <Sgeo> Here's the deal: I can send pulses
11:01:15 <Sgeo> I can also send.. a thing that makes an awsistor store a 1 or 0
11:01:39 <Sgeo> If it stores a 1 and I send a pulse though, a signal happens, as defined by the awsistor, but if it stores a 0... nothing happens
11:01:51 <Sgeo> So, how do I represent a bit in such an environment?
11:01:59 <Sgeo> a pulse for 1 and a different pulse for 0?
11:02:24 <Sgeo> Set one awsistor to 1 and a different one to 0 for 1, and visa versa for 0, and send a pulse when something changes?
11:02:32 <Sgeo> a pulse for 1, no pulse for 0?
11:03:28 <Sgeo> Hm, maybe a mixed environment
11:04:11 <Sgeo> For instance, if I have a circuit doing a lot of ANDs and ORs, pulse for 1 no pulse for 0
11:31:06 <augur> Sgeo: im not much of a fan of pulses. i prefer drupes.
11:36:40 <Sgeo> According to Wiki, drupe is a fruit
11:36:43 <Sgeo> Pulse is not a fruit
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11:46:18 <augur> i still prefer drupes!
11:48:34 <Ilari> Err... drupe is type of a fruit?
11:50:45 <augur> coffee is a drupe :D
11:50:56 <augur> a drupe is basically one of those fruits with a pit
11:52:15 <Ilari> Those have mechanical protection of seed itself. So its less likely they have nasty chemical tricks. :-)
11:58:28 <Ilari> As the seed itself is always protected. It may be mechanical (hard shell, digestion-resistant casing) or chemical defenses (toxins and antinutrients) or combination of those. :-)
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12:39:47 * Sgeo is stupidly awake right now
12:49:38 * ski nods tiredly
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14:01:42 <AnMaster> ais523, combine feather an a nomic
14:03:39 <ais523> anyone here, is this idea plausible or completely insane: when writing a VCS, have a standardised PHP script that's accessible over the Web so you can check in changes over http/https as well as pulling them from there
14:03:47 <ais523> it would have to be in PHP to work on cheap webhosts
14:04:04 <AnMaster> ais523, it could be static html
14:04:14 <AnMaster> ais523, bzr can pull from a static web server
14:04:14 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you commit to static HTML?
14:04:25 <ais523> yes, most VCSes can /pull/ from a static web server
14:04:25 <AnMaster> ais523, commit you can't do that way
14:04:27 <ais523> I'm talking about /pushing/
14:04:34 <ais523> which would require server-side scripting
14:04:44 <ais523> ideally, with the same URL as the pull
14:04:47 <AnMaster> ais523, you *said* pulling though
14:05:03 <ais523> AnMaster: "as well as pulling"
14:05:09 <ais523> the "check in" was the push
14:05:22 <ais523> "I want to do A as well as B" "but you can do B anyway!"
14:06:01 <AnMaster> ais523, bzr can push over ssh (without bzr on the other end even), and iirc also over ftp
14:07:28 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what do you like my idea of feathernomic
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14:09:18 <ais523> I've had vague ideas myself
14:09:21 <ais523> but it would be too confusing to play
14:09:49 <ais523> AnMaster: darcs can push over ssh too, although I think it needs darcs on the other end in order to speed up the process
14:10:22 <AnMaster> would still be an awesome game
14:10:43 <AnMaster> ais523, bzr can optionally use bzr at the other end for speeding up
14:12:47 <Ilari> ais523: Well, for Git you could have the PHP script understand the RPC protocol and do the repository manipulation itself. :-)
14:13:09 <ais523> I'm vaguely thinking about writing my own VCS, I have plans for it already
14:13:25 <ais523> because modern VCSes still don't do everything I think a VCS should do
14:13:30 <Ilari> ais523: RPC protocol is the only smart transport protocol that doesn't belong to same family as git://
14:13:59 <ais523> merging changes into blocks which have changed indentation
14:14:07 <ais523> e.g. someone puts if(x) { ... } around a block
14:14:13 <ais523> and someone else edits the inside of the block itself
14:14:18 <ais523> I don't see why that should cause a conflict
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14:14:36 <AnMaster> ais523, it needs to know the language
14:14:38 <ais523> also, you should be able to cherrypick anything without problems; darcs is good at that, most common VCSes are rather bad
14:14:42 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it doesn't
14:15:04 <AnMaster> ais523, in erlang it would be quite different for the last line, since the last line in the block will lose the ending ,
14:15:15 <ais523> if the entire context of a diff has changed whitespace consistently, in every language I know, except Whitespace, it would be safe to edit like that
14:15:30 <ais523> in Erlang, the test won't work and you'd have to merge manually, but it wouldn't mess up
14:16:16 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you plan to support Whitespace?
14:16:27 <ais523> option to turn that check offf
14:16:43 <AnMaster> ais523, needed for binary files anyway
14:16:54 <Ilari> ais523: Only that currently one needs protocol that supports 'connect' operation to do remote snapshot (git://, ssh://, file://, any remote helper that has 'connect' capability). RPC doesn't support that. :-/
14:16:57 <ais523> chance of it mattering for a binary file is incredibly low
14:24:30 <ais523> you should also be able to do the equivalent of "git rebase" arbitrarily without screwing up anyone else's repo when they try to pull from you
14:28:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I think rebasing is modifying the immutable history
14:28:45 <AnMaster> once commited it shouldn't be possible to change
14:28:57 <ais523> well, the solution IMO is to have two layers
14:29:02 <ais523> actual history, and user-readable history
14:29:15 <ais523> the second would be modifiable to make it more readable (which is the reason people rebase), the first wouldn't
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14:31:44 <ais523> meanwhile, SCO have appealed again
14:31:52 <ais523> it'll be hilarious to see which arguments they use this time
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16:28:08 <Ilari> Heh... Although total lunar eclipses seem much more common than total solar eclipses, in reality there's about 10 total solar eclipses for 11 total lunar eclipses. :-)
16:31:33 <Ilari> On average, there's one total solar eclipse in apprroximately 1.58 years. For total lunar eclipse the same time is approximately 1.44 years.
16:33:31 <Ilari> There's one TSE soon: http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/OH/OH2010.html#SE2010Jul11T
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16:45:26 <fizzie> Ilari: The one that's soon isn't very watching-friendly; "makes no landfall except for Mangaia (Cook Islands), Easter Island (Isla de Pascua) and several isolated atolls".
16:55:04 <fizzie> There was one visible nicely from Finland back in 1990; there's not going to be another any time soon, I think.
16:57:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have never seen a total one
16:58:31 <Gregor> I have NEVER SEEN THE WORLD outside TV and YouTube
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17:21:24 <Ilari> Next cycle total solar eclipses: 2010-07-11, 2012-11-13, 2015-03-20, 2016-03-09, 2017-08-21, 2019-07-02, 2020-12-14, 2021-12-04, 2024-04-08, 2026-08-12 and 2027-08-02.
17:22:15 <cpressey> Consuming each character of the program source triggers an event. An event changes the state of the consumer and can optionally add a continuation (of a sort) to a collection of continuations to be enacted at some later point. The continuations can be set up to save (and re-enter when activated) previous states, so you can build context-free (at least) consumers.
17:23:00 <cpressey> (Trying to unify scanning, parsing, immediate, and deferred execution.)
17:26:07 <Ilari> Those are from Saros 146, 133, 120, 130, 145, 127, 142, 152, 139, 126 and 136 (in order).
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17:33:22 <oklopol> i need to talk to him about metatopology
17:34:59 <cpressey> It's a metatopological emergency!
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17:37:42 <Ilari> This century also has total eclipses from Saros 129, 149, 148 and 155.
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17:59:34 <Ilari> Next Saros cycle to start is 156 with PSE in 2011. That cycle never produces TSE, but produces TLEs (2565-3034). It ends in 3503 with PLE.
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18:11:43 <cpressey> 'Course, there has to be some kind of self-modifying aspect to the consumer, so that you can define new identifiers -- basically, you alter the events that are triggered when the characters in that identifier is consumed. Hmm...
18:16:19 <AnMaster> cpressey, hm? the context being?
18:17:04 <cpressey> (11:22:35 AM) <cpressey> (Trying to unify scanning, parsing, immediate, and deferred execution.)
18:17:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, when is the next one for south-central Sweden?
18:17:15 <AnMaster> cpressey, ah, not for a specific language then?
18:17:34 <cpressey> Well, it could be a specific language, eventually
18:17:59 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Consuming each character of the program source triggers an event. <-- like befunge you mean?
18:18:01 <cpressey> Something like Mascarpone meets beta-Juliet meets... oh, who knows.
18:18:14 * AnMaster checks for Mascarpone on the esowiki
18:18:22 <cpressey> AnMaster: Except Befunge doesn't really have a grammar. No multi-character identifiers
18:18:26 <AnMaster> There is no page titled "Mascarpone". You can create this page.
18:18:46 <AnMaster> cpressey, does brainfuck have a grammar? There are no multi-char identifiers either
18:18:50 <cpressey> I haven't made an esowiki page for it yet I guess
18:19:18 <cpressey> AnMaster: That's much closer to a grammar than Befunge has, imo.
18:19:34 <Deewiant> Befunge has essentially no syntax
18:20:09 <Ilari> AnMaster: That site doesn't allow to search by location.
18:20:15 <AnMaster> I hope fizzie starts working on jitfunge again btw
18:20:24 * AnMaster forgot if cpressey heard about jitfunge before
18:20:47 <cpressey> I remember jitfunge from back when it was Betty :)
18:20:57 <AnMaster> cpressey, betty? doesn't sound familiar at all
18:21:01 <cpressey> That was a Befunge-93 jit compiler
18:21:09 <AnMaster> cpressey, jitfunge is fizzie'z project for a befunge-98 JIT compiling befunge
18:21:17 <AnMaster> I don't think it is based on this betty at all
18:21:42 <AnMaster> cpressey, iirc fizzie is using LLVM for it now, was doing his own x86 machine code at first but later switched to llvm
18:22:44 <pikhq> How's jitfunge going, anyways?
18:22:51 <AnMaster> cpressey, fun thing about jitfunge is that mycology is somewhat useless on it. Since it interprets and remembers first time it encounters a path in the code, then next time it ends up running that same path it JITs it. So things that work once might not work twice. Which mycology kind of assumes.
18:23:33 <cpressey> AnMaster: That makes it sound like jitfunge is incorrect
18:23:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, it makes it sound like it is pre 0.0.0.1
18:24:26 <AnMaster> iirc it ends a path when there are several directions to travel. Or maybe it didn't (I seem to remember it optimised the >:#,_ idiom (and variants for other directions), or maybe it was just a discussion about optimising it... not sure)
18:24:56 <Ilari> 33 902 frames of 48 015 done in 23:50...
18:24:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: It ends a path at branches, yes.
18:25:23 <cpressey> The key is that when you execute p and similar, you have to invalidate any compiled code that might have been changed by it.
18:25:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm, I guess it didn't turn >:#,_ into "output string" then
18:26:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, for p it had some sort of list for cells with traces using them in some way
18:28:38 * ais523 submits another level for Enigma
18:37:13 <fizzie> cpressey: There's also the fact that I "optimize" fixed-coordinate 'p' to a single memory store, but then I have to keep track of all target cells of such writes, in case someone later goes and executes code there, because the simple write wouldn't of course invalidate the trace.
18:38:12 <fizzie> (And I have to invalidate also traces that have ;-jumped over some space iff the write adds/removes a ; on the route; and potentially worry about all wrapping traces if the code bounding-box changes.
18:39:34 <fizzie> The Mycology problem indeed is that it does its tests only once, so it won't (easily) find bugs in the created JIT code, because those parts are only executed once, and traced while interpreting them; they'd be compiled+executed only when encountered a second time.
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18:45:05 <cpressey> fizzie: Surely that could be addressed by including a top-level loop in Mycology which makes it run its tests n times? (Although I admit that there are probably logistical problems with modifying Mycology in this way...)
18:45:33 <fizzie> You'd have to undo all self-modification and reset any other state.
18:45:51 <fizzie> Deewiant would probably know how feasible something like that is.
18:47:23 <Deewiant> But it shouldn't be too hard to just reload the file and go again (in the interpreter, if you don't want to write it in Befunge)
18:47:53 <Deewiant> Well, doing it in Befunge is doable pretty much only if you can get to the q at the end
18:48:37 <Deewiant> But anyway, that's not as trivial as using 'i' since that doesn't overwrite things with spaces
18:48:56 <AnMaster> it self-modifies heavily iirc, which means a lot of the jited code would still be ran as if first time
18:49:02 <AnMaster> in case you reset the file I mean
18:49:32 <Deewiant> Some parts, yes, but most test code shouldn't change
18:49:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, for testing I guess you could always trace and jit, then execute? Just make it not actually touch funge space on any p or such while tracing
18:53:17 <fizzie> Sounds also somewhat feasible, but not completely trivial.
18:53:58 <Deewiant> I suggest doing that, since it can be useful for general (non-Mycology) testing
18:55:30 <AnMaster> of course you need to try it the other way too, in case the tracer variant is buggy
18:57:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm if you had a trace like >'6 2 2 p and then some other code changed that 6 into a 9 or such, couldn't you in theory avoid rejitting that and just modify the value in the jitted machine code?
18:59:20 <fizzie> Yes. I sort-of "handle" that by marking (one-shot and normal) string-mode-traced cells with a different "type" value, and a pointer to the corresponding intermediate-form opcode.
19:00:03 <AnMaster> why the quotes around it I mean
19:00:07 <fizzie> So I can (I'm not sure if I currently do) just alter the intermediate opcode and run LLVM's codegen, without having to throw out the whole trace.
19:00:33 <fizzie> The quotes where there because even better would be to patch the generated machine code directly, to avoid also the codegen step.
19:00:55 <fizzie> That'd run into problems with constant-folding though, I assume.
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21:21:17 * pikhq loves how "" is a perfectly complete & valid Makefile
21:38:06 <fizzie> Geh, decoding a Descent 1 demo was a horrible mess. They use a variable-length "object" data structure, and the length depends on things like how many submodels a particular model has, so you have to decode all the polygon model data to know how many bytes to skip even if you're not interested in the event in question. (The demo files are a stream of events telling what to render on-screen.)
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22:49:05 <aliseiphone> I'm interested in ducks and the exciting properties of ducks.
22:52:23 <cpressey> aliseiphone: I'm trying to unify scanning, parsing, and immediate and deferred execution into a single, coherent, ugly framework.
22:52:36 <cpressey> But right now I need to cancel an appt. bbiab
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23:01:57 <oerjan> <cpressey> aliseiphone: I'm trying to unify scanning, parsing, and immediate and deferred execution into a single, coherent, ugly framework.
23:02:16 * oerjan whispers madly about oleg's iteratees and enumerators
23:03:49 <cpressey> I suspect my crap looks quite different
23:04:22 <oerjan> quite probably. i just suspect oleg's framework supports all the things you mentioned.
23:05:35 <oerjan> a scanner is an enumerator, a parser is an iteratee. and by embedding it into a monad you can get immediate execution if you want.
23:05:53 <oerjan> deferred execution being the default in haskell, naturally
23:06:09 <cpressey> OK, now I feel like just giving up on that, then.
23:06:12 <aliseiphone> I need to describe just how strange he looks
23:06:52 <oerjan> cpressey: well that's the little i think i understand of it, anyway.
23:07:11 <oerjan> mainly just from browsing the package documentation
23:07:35 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Design a language that is TC and /only/ executable with infinite storage (say, filled with every natural)
23:08:20 <aliseiphone> cpressey: You ever read Oleg's site? Great way to be humbled.
23:08:33 <oerjan> aliseiphone: wouldn't it by necessity take infinite time to check that you actually have infinite storage
23:08:46 <cpressey> aliseiphone: not sure it makes sense. No difference between infinite storage filled with every natural, and unbounded storage lazily poulated with successive naturals.
23:08:59 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Yes, I've read through it, mostly the scheme stuff.
23:09:52 <cpressey> Unless you define your operations to work on infinite amounts of storage at a time.
23:09:59 <oerjan> if it can actually be implemented to be practical, then the infinite parts can be faked. well that's almost a tautology.
23:12:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I'm pretty sure that there is no such thing.
23:12:54 <pikhq> A Turing machine that will halt does not ever access infinite storage.
23:13:23 <pikhq> Because by merit of halting, it must have executed a finite number of steps, and hence accessed a finite amount of storage.
23:14:03 <oerjan> well then, it'll probably have to be superturing.
23:14:56 <aliseiphone> OK then, a language where every operation takes an infinite list of values and transforms them into another infinite list
23:15:32 <oerjan> perhaps, although you need the operation to be complicated enough to defy laziness at least...
23:15:57 <pikhq> Make it somehow not be lazy and you're good.
23:16:11 <aliseiphone> e.g. V := MAP(x in V) (SUM(x in V) x)/(SUM(x in V) [x>0])
23:16:39 <aliseiphone> a mean of sorts. Sets all values to 0 if there are an infinite number of nonzeroes though.
23:16:52 * cpressey tries desperately to think up a pun on "quantum computing"
23:17:12 <oerjan> and if you're really strict about this, you'd have to make it be impossible to compress the list contents to finite size using any kind of math :D
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23:18:28 <oerjan> cpressey: the problem is that once you've observed the pun, it's not quantum anymore
23:19:48 <aliseiphone> V := FOLD(x in V; y=<>) y ++ <last(y) + x>
23:20:06 <pikhq> oerjan: Just requires that the list be uncomputable.
23:23:41 <pikhq> Hmm. Make it a list of noncomputable rationals.
23:24:00 <pikhq> (and now you have two problems)
23:24:19 <cpressey> "noncomputable rationals", eh?
23:24:29 <cpressey> I think we might in fact have three problems.
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23:32:29 <aliseiphone> I want to write an automatic proof system.
23:33:08 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Well, automatic is the whole fun.
23:34:20 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Especially from a type theory perspective: you're writing a program that takes a specification of some types, and for some subset tells you whether one is inhabited or not.
23:34:43 <aliseiphone> (And if so, spits out a term of that type.)
23:34:58 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Another thing I have discovered: most APIs suck.
23:35:36 <pikhq> Those are the two worst parts of the C library.
23:36:10 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Do you care about propositions and proofs?
23:36:22 <pikhq> Why the heck can't you create a FILE*?
23:36:52 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Gets very tempting.
23:37:09 <aliseiphone> pikhq: It will be based on abstract streams and therefore support string streams to boot.
23:37:11 <pikhq> Would probably want a better string.h attached as well.
23:37:19 <pikhq> C strings are a bit annoying.
23:37:40 <pikhq> Well, they make certain things very easy and certain things almost certainly done wrong.
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23:38:52 <pikhq> And there's no, no, *no* reason why you shouldn't be able to, say, wrap zlib around a FILE* and magically have compressed IO.
23:39:26 <pikhq> f = zlibify(f); // BAM! File compression!
23:39:32 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Of course. Define a zlib stream type, write a constrictor.
23:41:23 <Sgeo> Nook, Kindle, what are the other options?
23:41:37 * Sgeo got to play with a Nook a little today
23:42:08 <Sgeo> Why is Nook bad? I mean, besides not so pleasant UI-ness?
23:44:04 <aliseiphone> pikhq: interf stream { struct S; void blah(S *); } impl stream { typedef struct zlibstream S; blah = zlibblah; }
23:44:53 <cpressey> If you build an unstdio I can use, I'll use it.
23:45:42 <cpressey> It's the interface that's broken, isn't it?
23:45:51 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, such as?
23:46:13 <cpressey> Thought it was a C library clone.
23:46:29 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Sorry but I have limited time; I believe I said reasons in past logs?
23:46:36 <cpressey> Well I'm three for three today, maybe I should just vamoose.
23:46:55 <Sgeo> I'm not likely to share books with anyone, it is capable of reading PDF, and as for slowness.. um
23:47:00 <pikhq> C's standard library should just die.
23:47:06 <Sgeo> I noticed, but don't have a basis for comparision yet
23:47:15 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Would we need to support encodings?
23:47:16 <Sgeo> I don't remember what else you said
23:47:31 <aliseiphone> Unicode is so complex it needs its own lib.
23:47:32 <pikhq> aliseiphone: If done properly?
23:47:42 <pikhq> At minimum all the UTFs and UCSs.
23:47:49 <oerjan> aliseiphone: clearly you should only support uncodings
23:48:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Non-Unicode should die in a fire.
23:48:23 <pikhq> Unless someone makes something better...
23:48:33 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Non-Unicode *text* encoding.
23:48:36 <Sgeo> If I buy a Sony eReader, would I be able to buy from the B&N ebookstore or whatever?
23:48:56 <Sgeo> Oh wait, it has its own store?
23:49:20 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Do you want to be able to ask for X characters?
23:49:26 <pikhq> If so, you need Unicode handling.
23:49:42 <pikhq> Granted, this could be done on *top* of a sane byte-based IO library, but still.
23:49:45 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Yes, but is that codepoints? Graphemes?
23:50:01 <aliseiphone> Should the result be normalised? Which form?
23:50:20 * Sgeo wonders if there's a way to try it hands on
23:50:52 * Sgeo also wants to try Kindle hands-on
23:51:11 <pikhq> aliseiphone: A character is a single codepoint plus zero or more codepoints representing combining characters.
23:51:22 <aliseiphone> Kitty shall not poop on that area of morality.
23:51:52 <cpressey> Combining characters should die.
23:51:58 <Sgeo> "BORROW FROM YOUR LIBRARY"
23:52:12 <aliseiphone> cpressey: No, COMBINED characters should die.
23:52:22 <pikhq> Arabic has very, very well-defined notions of characters.
23:52:29 <coppro> I agree with aliseiphone
23:52:50 <cpressey> aliseiphone: And yet, combining characters continue to live? Bizarreness.
23:52:55 <pikhq> They just get calligraphically combined when *rendered*.
23:53:22 <pikhq> cpressey: Unless you want to end all languages with diacritics, yes.
23:53:32 <pikhq> (hint: that's almost all of them)
23:53:55 <cpressey> Well, thank you all for making strlen basically unimplementable.
23:54:05 <aliseiphone> pikhq: coppro: Futhermore, let's undo Han unification.
23:54:13 <coppro> (and admittedly we do have diacritics too)
23:54:18 <coppro> aliseiphone: no comment
23:54:41 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Heck, encode all the Chinese characters using their components.
23:55:21 <pikhq> Thereby allowing us to encode several billion characters using a few hundred codepoints.
23:55:40 <coppro> that sounds attractive
23:56:42 <pikhq> aliseiphone: You see, almost all of the Chinese characters are composed of other components. Making them much simpler than most people think.
23:56:48 <aliseiphone> pikhq: We need to figure out the One True Way of C error handling.
23:57:03 <pikhq> "ZOMG OVER NINE THOUSAND!", they think.
23:57:25 <pikhq> When there's only a small handful of things you need to learn to draw, and the rest is basically just spelling.
23:57:29 <coppro> aliseiphone: setjmp obviously
23:58:08 <cpressey> You did say "True Way", not "Good Way".
23:58:25 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Definitely not errno.
23:59:03 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Perhaps error handling via callbacks?
23:59:24 <pikhq> Hrm. There's room for obnoxious complexity in there though.
23:59:25 <coppro> that sounds like functional code
23:59:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: { char c; while(ugetb(ustdin, &c)) uputb(ustdout, c); }
23:59:56 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, uh. Semi-functional C is the easiest way to make it readable.
00:00:31 <coppro> pikhq: C IS NOT A FUNCTIONAL LANGUAGE !!!1!!!1!1!
00:00:57 <Sgeo> How dare you suggest that it takes me two weeks to turn pages 7,500 times!
00:01:17 <pikhq> coppro: No, but functions are a very simple way of splitting up functionality in C.
00:01:28 <pikhq> And as such I use them extensively.
00:01:35 <coppro> yeah, <3 functions generally
00:02:25 <aliseiphone> { char c; while(!ueof(uin)) { if(ubad(ugetb(uin, &c))) cry(); uputb(uout, c); } }
00:03:24 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Maybe capital U prefix for clarity.
00:04:13 <pikhq> { char c; Uerror(uin, cry); while(!ueof(uin)) uputb(uout, c); }
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00:04:25 <aliseiphone> Ubyte b; while(!Ueof(Uin)) { if(Ubad(Ugetb(Uin, &b))) cry(); Uputb(Uout, c); }
00:05:00 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Repeat after me: I Will Not Use Non-Local Control Flow.
00:05:18 <Sgeo> I Will Not Mindlessly Obey Alise
00:05:33 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Repeat after me: I Will Not Require Large Amounts of Boiler Plate For Error Handling
00:05:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Boiler Plate For Error Handling Makes People Not Do It
00:06:24 <aliseiphone> Yes, And Is A Generic "OOPS PROGGY IS FUCKED" Really Any Better?
00:06:32 <Sgeo> I'm going to look for a comparision of eReaders
00:07:00 <pikhq> POSIX says they're bytes. Because POSIX likes lies.
00:09:50 <aliseiphone> Because TCP doesn't want to be useful for local process communication and it masturbates to port clashes.
00:09:54 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Because FUCK YOU that's why.
00:09:57 <Sgeo> "Because this format locks you into a single device (and because you cant get library books on a Kindle), we recommend getting an ePub-compatible ereader and not a Kindle. "
00:10:19 <pikhq> aliseiphone: WHY BSD SOCKETS
00:10:25 <pikhq> That's a general question
00:10:38 <Sgeo> Strings aren't likely to be unique unless you're using URIs, and do you want to send a URI with every.. packet, I guess?
00:11:29 <aliseiphone> Strings are more USEFUL - http, mpd, gnome - and much less likely to clash than "1234".
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00:12:49 <Sgeo> Wasn't TCP designed when space was more of an issue?
00:15:28 <aliseiphone> Double it. 5 letters, accounting for terminator.
00:15:37 <pikhq> Actually, 2 ASCII characters.
00:16:26 <aliseiphone> Of course theoretically you can have ceil(log2(27)*5)
00:16:52 <pikhq> Oh, just encoding the (upper or lower case) Roman alphabet. Mmkay.
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00:19:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Of course, really we should remove the source field too.
00:20:02 <aliseiphone> (Source independent networking is jawsome.)
00:23:18 * Sgeo pokes aliseiphone with the idea of a Kobo
00:23:57 <Sgeo> http://chamberfour.com/ereader-comparison/#kobo
00:24:58 <aliseiphone> pikhq: In fact, y'know what? Condolences; you're on the aliseOS team.
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00:29:19 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Idea: picokernel that provides two things;: fork(), and an abstract / namespace.
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00:29:40 <aliseiphone> Process communication is done by giving your child a file to talk to you with.
00:31:51 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Issues: awesome or MOST AWESOME?
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00:33:57 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How's process communication going to work, semantically?
00:34:20 <pikhq> Something lazy like "We hand you a page that's shared between the two processes."?
00:35:00 * Sgeo goes off to read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
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00:35:14 <Sgeo> If I can stop distracting myself with the computer
00:35:18 * pikhq wonders why it always ends up being more complex than that
00:37:20 <Sgeo> Must... not.. check IRC every two seconds...
00:37:35 * pikhq should look to see what L4 does
00:39:50 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Oh, okay. So, we've got fork() and kernelspace 9P.
00:39:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:40:22 <pikhq> And by "kernel-space" I of course mean "just enough of 9P to support it easily."
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00:55:03 <nooga> alise: stop adversiting colloquy for gayphone
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01:01:59 <Sgeo> When alise gets back, remind me to thank him
01:02:04 <Sgeo> This is a great book
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01:13:17 <nooga> Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency ?
01:14:24 <coppro> hey, I'm trying to identify a port on my laptop
01:14:39 <nooga> pan lodowego odrodu is definately awesome
01:14:46 <nooga> if it comes to fantasy
01:14:49 <coppro> it's as thick as a USB port but a bit longer with a single tapered corner
01:15:00 <coppro> it has a funny D as a logo
01:15:38 <coppro> the pins are on a piece of plastic extending out in the middle of the port
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01:32:30 <CakeProphet> pikhq: I wonder how many of us regularly frequent #haskell
01:32:49 <pikhq> Decent chunk of this channel.
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02:28:08 <Sgeo_> coppro, am I allowed to look at previous chapters during reading?
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02:55:38 <jberryman> this is a chan for esoteric programming languages, no?
02:56:05 <jberryman> okay I'm in the right place, thanks. :)
02:56:25 <CakeProphet> it's pretty exciting here. You can perform unsafe IO
02:56:48 <CakeProphet> !haskell performUnsafeIO $ putStrLn "Hello, World!"
02:57:21 <jberryman> !haskell unsafePerformIO $ putStrLn "Hello, World!"
02:57:47 <CakeProphet> I don't remember what module unsafePerformIO is in
02:59:05 <CakeProphet> jberryman: do you know about the website/wiki and all of that?
02:59:40 <jberryman> ahh, I have of course run across it
03:00:23 <kwertii> are there any academic specialists in esoteric langs?
03:00:44 <Slereah> Depends what you mean by that, I guess
03:00:55 <Slereah> Esoteric languages are sometimes linked to computation theory
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03:01:19 <Slereah> A lot of esolangs derive from mathematical research
03:01:32 <jberryman> Slereah: seems like more often than not
03:01:49 <Slereah> The math part most often comes in Turing tarpits
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03:05:51 <Slereah> Maybe the academic version of Lisp
03:05:59 <pikhq> Now *Java*, that's esoteric.
03:06:21 <pikhq> Slereah: All you need is def and lambda, man. :)
03:06:39 <Slereah> But then that's just regular lambda calculus
03:06:51 <oerjan> incorrect. you don't need def.
03:06:52 <Slereah> While with the six functions, you don't need any lambda
03:07:06 <pikhq> oerjan: For Lisp semantics.
03:07:13 <Slereah> cons, car, cdr, atom, eq and if
03:07:37 <pikhq> Those are all just lambda in disquise.
03:08:03 <Slereah> But only because every turing complete system can be translated into one another
03:08:46 <Slereah> So are lambda calculus and logical combinators
03:08:49 <pikhq> Cons, car, and cdr in particular are very very simple functions.
03:08:53 <CakeProphet> ...the thing that I don't really like about all of this theoretical stuff
03:08:55 <Slereah> And yet I wouldn't call them the same thing :o
03:09:07 <Slereah> Actually, sometimes it does
03:09:17 <pikhq> CakeProphet: IO's generally trivial.
03:09:18 <Slereah> Like the original Turing machine had thought of IO
03:09:29 <Slereah> Sometimes it's pretty hard to implement
03:09:34 <pikhq> Slereah: No it didn't. You just had a tape.
03:09:41 <Slereah> At least in any other way than enter something at the beginning
03:10:00 <Slereah> What he called a choice machine
03:10:01 <pikhq> Your closest to "IO" is you set the initial tape state and can look at the final one.
03:10:13 <pikhq> Not a Turing machine. :P
03:10:47 <Slereah> He just didn't call it a Turing machine because it would be kind of arrogant to call it after yourself
03:11:59 <CakeProphet> Yogi Bear Encourages Vile Neanderthal Intercourse With Veinty Tissues
03:12:27 <jberryman> speaking of not speaking of IO: does anyone have examples of programs written in Iota or Jot that "do something useful"?
03:12:58 <jberryman> the only examples I've seen are programs that don't termintate
03:13:37 <CakeProphet> Let's see what fungot has to say about that.
03:13:38 <fungot> CakeProphet: oh my. i have a list of things like airline software and the internet. serious business. small business suffers
03:14:56 <pikhq> Hmm. Berryman... I knew a one Berryman once.
03:15:15 <CakeProphet> I personally don't know anything about Iota or Jot.
03:15:37 <pikhq> Anyways: I seem to recall Iota and Jot not having very useful IO.
03:15:52 <pikhq> (though I may be completely and utterly wrong)
03:15:56 <jberryman> pikhq: it has no IO, really doesn't have a notion of data
03:16:00 <Slereah> I recall them being horrid and rather cheating in their "smallest number of function" thing
03:16:24 <Slereah> Iota and Jot don't have any, but Zot has, IIRC
03:16:33 <pikhq> Slereah: Not really. It's a single combinator. They just suck at documenting it as such. :P
03:16:50 <Slereah> pikhq : Yeah, but not a "pure" combinator
03:17:10 <Slereah> You can't define what it does without the help of other combinators or lambda calculus
03:18:13 <jberryman> Slereah: what sort of combinator would be "pure" in that case?
03:18:24 <Slereah> Even the guy who invented combinators knew that it was bogus
03:18:41 <pikhq> Slereah: I'm pretty sure all combinators are defined in terms of lambda calculus.
03:18:44 <Slereah> jberryman : One you can define by its action on arbitrary elements, I guess
03:19:03 <CakeProphet> one day the obsession with eliminating primitives will find some crazy way to make a formal system with absolutely no primitives...
03:19:05 <Slereah> You can't define iota's operator through that
03:19:07 <pikhq> CONGRATS that's lambda calculus.
03:19:24 <Slereah> It can be defined by it, sure
03:19:33 <Slereah> (also combinators are older than LC, so there)
03:19:45 <pikhq> THATS WHAT YOU WROTE
03:19:51 <oerjan> jberryman: Lazy-K has IO and allows Iota and/or Jot as input syntax, iirc
03:19:51 <pikhq> YOU FAIL AT DEMONSTRATING YOUR POINT
03:20:03 <fungot> CakeProphet: there was a better way than this? :-p
03:20:12 <Slereah> That is not what I wrote >:|
03:20:35 <fungot> CakeProphet: i bet you're trying to do it in scheme? your motivation affects what resources i will recommend.
03:20:43 <pikhq> Slereah: No, you wrote the near equivalent. Oooh, I can also make it valid Haskell.
03:20:55 <CakeProphet> ha. No, fungot, I was actually thinking of Haskell
03:20:56 <fungot> CakeProphet: what is siscweb? i dont know how
03:21:00 <Slereah> pikhq : That's like saying that I wrote set theory when I do 1+1 = 2
03:21:09 <pikhq> First: Kxy -> x; Then: Kxy = x; Finally: k x y = x
03:21:24 <pikhq> Slereah: No, it's like saying you wrote 1+1 == 2 when you wrote 1+1 = 2
03:21:46 <Slereah> You do not need to write the lambdas in such a thing
03:21:55 <Slereah> You can just show the action of elements on the function
03:21:57 <pikhq> Insert three characters and it's magically lambda calculus.
03:22:00 <Slereah> While you can't with iota's function
03:22:12 <jberryman> oerjan: thanks. I was aware of Lazy-K, but I'm actually trying to grok how they encode numbers in Lazy-K
03:22:31 <oerjan> jberryman: church numerals i would think
03:22:43 <CakeProphet> I think I broke fungot, or he has a spam limit or something.
03:22:49 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_Bird
03:22:59 <pikhq> jberryman: It's just an infinite list of church numerals.
03:23:59 <jberryman> but don't the combinators need to work on other combinators?
03:24:16 <Slereah> They can work on arbitrary elements
03:24:17 <pikhq> Slereah: Would you agree that U=\f->((fS)K) is a higher order function that only uses function application?
03:24:20 <jberryman> i.e. how can I feed the SKI conbinator calculus church numerals?
03:24:24 <Slereah> But usually they're used on other combinators
03:24:48 <oerjan> jberryman: church numerals can be abstraction eliminated like any lambda calculus terms
03:25:12 <pikhq> jberryman: With S and K you can represent any arbitrary lambda calculus term.
03:25:13 <Slereah> Try to convert the successor operator
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03:26:27 <oerjan> jberryman: lessee 2 = \f x -> f (f x) = \f -> S(K f) f = S(S(KS)K)I modulo errors
03:26:43 <pikhq> oerjan: Looks correct.
03:27:24 <oerjan> jberryman: madore's unlambda page contains a pretty good explanation of abstraction elimination iirc
03:27:49 <Slereah> I included an eliminator of abstraction in lazy bird
03:28:01 <oerjan> there is no such thing as a fungot
03:28:01 <fungot> oerjan: what do you mean by write a srfi for
03:28:36 <oerjan> CakeProphet: unlikely. try again now.
03:28:43 <fungot> CakeProphet: most people would blame lag... :) apparently i was wrong a while ago
03:29:18 <jberryman> oerjan: thanks. I'll check that out.
03:29:34 <oerjan> it's not blacklist, it's flooding protection essentially, and it only keeps track of one person at a time.
03:31:03 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
03:31:43 <oerjan> it does blacklist the other bots though
03:32:30 <oerjan> oh and the single-person block only affects the babbling, not actual commands afair
03:33:14 * oerjan cackles evilly on fizzie's behalf *MWAHAHAHA*
03:34:13 <fungot> CakeProphet: that's not quite fair; haven't tried it
03:39:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:39:41 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
03:40:08 <jberryman> I just checked fungot's source for bugs. it looks good.
03:40:09 <fungot> jberryman: as i fnord but, as fast as you can," i said, hoping to keep him from beginning.
03:40:42 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
03:40:51 <fungot> CakeProphet: sights lying black under the unmeasured depth of age-old peat. that these hellish vestiges of old fnord magic and fertility cults were even now wholly dead he could not walk without the aid of the law. there had been the affable reporters, of whom several had still remained to collect final echoes of the third blast had died fnord away randolph carter saw that the passage was painted scenes of the utmost fnord, app
03:42:10 <Slereah> why are you sending empty text
03:42:40 <oerjan> CakeProphet: fizzie uses another program to generate the styles from text files, it replaces any word that only occurs once by fnord
03:44:03 <oerjan> at least by default. there are apparently some parameters that can be varied, such as how many consecutive words to take into account.
03:44:16 <fungot> CakeProphet: matthew phipps shiel, author of some dozen tales long and short, whose literary posterity is destined to become so numerous, and in
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03:47:31 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
03:47:46 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
03:48:02 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
03:48:33 <CakeProphet> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
03:49:27 <oerjan> the ^str's are for allowing inputting long programs by composing, i think
03:49:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
03:50:26 <oerjan> well that was the theory
03:50:44 <oerjan> bf and ul are builtins
03:50:54 <oerjan> maybe it only works with ^def
03:51:06 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord
03:51:43 <fungot> SSwweeeett,, nniiccee rreevveerrbb eeffffeecctt ffuunnggoott
03:51:49 <oerjan> oh it checks syntax already at ^def
03:53:14 <fungot> (^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S
03:53:26 <fungot> HHHHeeeelllllllloooo????
03:57:37 <CakeProphet> ah, but I am wasting my time. I have absolutely no clue how to read number literals and convert them to bytes in bf.
03:57:55 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
03:57:58 <CakeProphet> but it would be my first bf program attempt
03:58:01 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
03:58:13 <oerjan> i guess that's the wrong direction
03:58:41 <oerjan> those number in ^show are run-length encoding
04:00:34 <oerjan> just for compressing a bit
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04:03:17 <oerjan> apparently not allowed directly :(
04:04:11 <CakeProphet> so I guess you'd keep grabbing input until a space is hit. then you'd convert each digit into a byte value, then exponentiate by an increment 10^x
04:05:13 <oerjan> i'd imagine multiplying by 10 and adding would be easier than keeping track of exponents.
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04:34:22 <Sgeo_> Gregor-P, didn't you get an eReader once?
04:34:32 <Sgeo_> Or am I thinking of some other Android device that you got?
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04:41:05 <Sgeo_> I really, really, really, want to full-text search this book right now.
04:49:48 <Sgeo_> Gregor-P, what eReader?
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05:02:52 <Sgeo_> Would you recommend it?
05:05:39 <Sgeo_> Seems rather expensive
05:17:36 <Gregor-P> And has a relatively big screen for the price.
05:19:11 <Sgeo_> I don't know if I want a big screen
05:19:21 <Sgeo_> I want something as comfortable to hold as the Nook, I think
05:19:31 <Sgeo_> But preferably less of a PITA to use
05:20:23 <Gregor-P> The IREX is about the same size as the nook.
05:20:46 <Gregor-P> Its tablet screen is surprisingly nice fo general navigation.
05:22:45 <Sgeo_> My dad says he might be able to get me a Kindle for free :/
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05:25:02 <CakeProphet> but... I don't feel like it. Someone else can try if they like
05:28:18 <Sgeo_> I'd like to be able to borrow ebooks from the library, now that I know that that's something that actually exists.
05:29:01 <Gregor-P> Universal Markup for Geophysics of Dynamically Moving Bodies of Oceania
05:29:21 <Gregor-P> Sgeo_: Kindle can't do that, everything else can.
05:29:59 <Sgeo_> The fact that the Kindle would be free is the only reason I'm even thinking about it at this point
05:30:15 <myndzi\> i'm kinda hoping pixel qi works out to be awesome
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05:30:34 <myndzi> i am almost tempted to spring for the Adam when it comes out
05:31:26 <CakeProphet> sounds like a good domain-specific language.
05:32:52 <CakeProphet> I'm done. Off to get fucked up. cheers everyone.
05:33:23 <fungot> CakeProphet: he had wished to find the sun coming out. they were
05:33:34 <Sgeo_> "Avoid the clunky navigation of other eReaders with this quick and easy solution." *cough* Nook *cough*
05:36:12 <myndzi> i wrote an acro script once
05:36:18 <myndzi> it was a lot of work for a simple concept
05:36:36 <myndzi> this method is somewhat easier hehe
05:37:09 <myndzi> though, it'd be nice if it followed english letter probabilities for the start of words or something
05:39:29 <CakeProphet> !haskell putStr $ ((++"bottles of beer on the wall.\n").show) =<< [99..1]
05:40:07 * Sgeo_ thinks he wants a Sony Reader Touch Edition
05:40:20 <oerjan> [99..1] is an empty list
05:41:34 <EgoBot> [99,98,97,96,95,94,93,92,91,90,89,88,87,86,85,84,83,82,81,80,79,78,77,76,75,74,73,72,71,70,69,68,67,66,65,64,63,62,61,60,59,58,57,56,55,54,53,52,51,50,49,48,47,46,45,44,43,42,41,40,39,38,37,36,35,34,33,32,31,30,29,28,27,26,25,24,23,22,21,20,19,18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1]
05:41:38 <myndzi> actually i don't even belong in this channel haha
05:41:52 <Gregor-P> Sgeo_: I've heard better things about the Sony than the Nook
05:42:21 <CakeProphet> !haskell putStr $ ((++"bottles of beer on the wall.\n").show) =<< [99,98..1]
05:42:22 <EgoBot> 99bottles of beer on the wall.
05:42:37 <oerjan> myndzi: you cannot do 100-[1..99] out of the box. you could define a class instance to make it work, though.
05:42:39 <Sgeo_> Although I think I could survive
05:43:10 <Sgeo_> The worst thing, IMO, was the placement of the page turn buttons. WHY would you have upper button on both sides be back, and lower buttons be forwards?
05:43:32 <Sgeo_> But that's just what I'd need to adjust to. The color screen is.. annoying, to say the least
05:43:42 <Sgeo_> It's unusably small
05:44:55 <Gregor-P> The page turning on the IREX is SWEET
05:47:19 <myndzi> you know what else is sweet?
05:47:28 <myndzi> switching between color lcd and e-ink
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05:59:07 <pikhq> My head hurts now.
05:59:53 <pikhq> So: in addition to Taiwan and China's mutual claims, the US has a valid claim over Taiwan.
06:00:01 <pikhq> After WWII, we occupied Taiwan.
06:00:10 <pikhq> We then delegated authority to the Republic of China government.
06:00:18 <pikhq> And we continue to do so.
06:00:36 <Ilari> Whew... That Skyroads thing took almost 35 hours to render... Now doing the same with Xmas version...
06:02:21 <Ilari> Should be faster as the game is shorter (by over 3.5 minutes) and most levels are shorter.
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06:08:40 <Sgeo_> If I get a touch edition, can I use it to make handwritten notes unrelated to books?
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06:11:45 <Rafajafar> Who decided that R4 was time and R0 was a point?
06:12:16 <Rafajafar> wouldn't it make more sense if R0 was time because time can exist independent of space?
06:13:14 <Rafajafar> any cool langs come out lately kiddos?
06:16:26 <Sgeo_> Scribble random math from time to time
06:16:46 <Sgeo_> Gregor-P, IREX is _expensive_
06:17:17 <Sgeo_> I think this device will get me back into reading, and back into math
06:18:20 <pikhq> I've got something better for that.
06:18:22 <pikhq> Is called a "book".
06:18:34 <Gregor-P> Rafajafar: Time is just another dimension, doesn't make much diff where it goes, it's no more independent from space than one dimension of space is from another.
06:20:13 <Rafajafar> well that's not exactly right? To say you can have a cube w/o the concept of a plane is ludicrous
06:20:36 <Rafajafar> isnt it equally ludicrous to have the concept of a point w/o a time in which it exists?
06:21:02 <Rafajafar> more of a philosophical question, probably. Just talking crank for a bit.
06:21:16 <Sgeo_> pikhq, you can't draw on books without ruining them
06:21:30 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Yes, well. What are you doing not reading them?
06:21:44 <Sgeo_> As far as getting into math is concerned, what I need is easy paper
06:23:45 <Rafajafar> Just out of curiosity, what are yalls backgrounds
06:24:02 <Rafajafar> I'm a simple bachelor of computer science, full time technology manager
06:24:05 <Gregor-P> Rafajafar: Matter of perspective. Can you have a TIME CUBE (errr, a cube that exists for some amount of time) without time?
06:24:44 <Rafajafar> according to him you're educated stupid
06:24:51 * pikhq is a currently not-enrolled-in-school 20 year old with a background that consists of being completely computer-obsessed.
06:26:20 <Rafajafar> strange joke, but glad you assumed I was on level to know it
06:27:01 <Rafajafar> Gregor-P: No I mean, it's ok to ask questions like this right?
06:27:21 <Rafajafar> I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I just do not know why it is... I'm seeking deep knowledge
06:27:36 <Gregor-P> Kinda the point of this channel.
06:27:53 <Rafajafar> well, ok, why isn't time the 0'th dimension?
06:28:09 <myndzi> because when you are numbering things you start with 1!
06:28:11 <Rafajafar> sounds reasonable to me that for existence to exist it needs time?
06:28:30 <myndzi> maybe i should have said counting things
06:28:44 <Gregor-P> Can't write huge amounts of text on this phone X-P
06:28:47 <myndzi> time is not necessary for existence of course
06:28:52 <Sgeo_> If you fail to consider time as a dimension, you have 3 dimensions. Suddenly realize time is a dimension, and it's a fourth
06:29:25 <Rafajafar> myndzi: that implies that space is necessary
06:29:29 <Ilari> And where it gets bit nasty is interrelation of spooky action at distance and relative time... :-/
06:29:52 <myndzi> existence is what is, that's all :P
06:30:02 <cheater99> is timecube.com the previous version of stackoverflow.com
06:30:05 <myndzi> if time wasn't, existince wouldn't include it
06:30:22 <Rafajafar> if space wasnt, existence wouldn't include it
06:30:41 <myndzi> then that would be existence! :)
06:30:56 <myndzi> that would be ecnetsixe
06:31:04 <Rafajafar> what if certain things need to be defined with the perspective of time as a basis, and other things need to be defined as space as a basis?
06:31:23 <myndzi> what if certain things need to be defined with your mom as a basis?
06:31:37 <Rafajafar> my mother is the basis for all things, before her I knew nothing
06:31:45 <myndzi> so what you're saying is
06:31:49 <myndzi> your mother is the first woman you knew?
06:32:11 <Rafajafar> whether she enjoyed it isnt up to me to speculate
06:32:32 <myndzi> to your hoo hoo i say ho ho!
06:33:26 <cheater99> do python expressions/functions have the strong normalizing property?
06:33:50 <Ilari> Since spooky action at distance is said to propagate at infinite speed, and with relative time, infinite speed tends to cause trouble.
06:34:05 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should get a tablet instead of an eReader
06:34:11 <Sgeo_> Then again, maybe not
06:34:26 <myndzi> what about at ludicrous speed?
06:36:11 <Rafajafar> Ilari: actually, if action at a distance was measured as a function of space over time, then you've already crossed into the 4th... it wouldn't matter if time was the origin or the 4th
06:38:03 <Ilari> In fact, any cause and effect that would need exceeding speed of light => trouble with SR.
06:38:11 <Rafajafar> what if time was the 0th d, space with the 1st d, and change was the 5th d?
06:38:50 <Rafajafar> b/c a line would be the 2nd, and a plane would be the 3rd, and full space will be R3
06:39:46 <Rafajafar> because really when we say R4, we're talking about change, not time
06:40:24 <Rafajafar> anyway, I'm a dork, I ask weird questions and posit strange hypothese
06:40:40 <Rafajafar> and I say that b/c I'm afraid of being percieved as a crank...
06:42:56 <Rafajafar> hah, wow, I got banned from #math for asking that question
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06:46:41 <pikhq> Rafajafar: You're talking to guys who posit infinite lists of noncomputable reals here. :P
06:50:38 <Rafajafar> pikhq: oh that's absolutely possible
06:54:02 <Rafajafar> pikhq: why... wouldn't there be an infinite list of noncomputable reals
06:54:38 <Rafajafar> all you need is one that exists before 1 and 0, then you add one to that and it's also noncomputable... making it an infinite list
06:55:26 <pikhq> Rafajafar: Yeah, the noncomputable reals certainly exist.
06:55:29 <Rafajafar> furthermore, there's an infinite list of noncomputable reals between 0 and 1... because there are an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1, and a finite number of computable functions
06:55:37 <pikhq> They're just very irritating to compute. :P
06:56:00 <Rafajafar> well, I guess there isnt a finite number of computable functions, actually... but it's less infinite
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06:57:00 <pikhq> That is the correct term, yes.
06:57:15 <pikhq> The computable reals are countable, after all.
06:59:19 <Rafajafar> pikhq: I'm manic tonight :-P Tell me what else I should think about
07:00:04 <Rafajafar> I normally spend time on primes or music theory
07:00:29 <Sgeo_> Get the Kindle, and buy a good eReader
07:00:42 <Sgeo_> In case there are titles available for Kindle but not other eReaders
07:01:48 <Rafajafar> I wish I could read for depth... I can only scan... I scan for information and connect things in my head a few minutes later. Reading for pleasure is out of the question.
07:02:28 <Sgeo_> Do you really need to read for depth to read for pleasure?
07:02:52 <Rafajafar> I remember people as "the guy who did this"
07:03:06 <Rafajafar> makes me a decent programmer... and a great designer (software engineer)... but a terrible reader
07:03:49 <Rafajafar> only book series I ever could keep up with was the Hitchiker's guide
07:04:27 <Rafajafar> mostly because the names were so distinct I had no issue keeping up with them, but also because the characters were so distinct, I could track who they were by the sentence structure rather than the "said, so and so"
07:05:15 <Rafajafar> Sgeo_ who are you reading these days?
07:05:28 <Sgeo_> Mostly Pratchett though
07:07:37 <Rafajafar> you know I was told Discworld was very good
07:08:10 <Rafajafar> blah holy shit, talking about trivial shit ... need to log... back when I'm not fucking nuts.
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07:36:19 <Sgeo_> Just finished Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency for the first time
07:41:29 <Sgeo_> Well, there's at least one book for which Amazon's price is cheaper
07:42:18 <Sgeo_> http://ebookstore.sony.com/ebook/douglas-r-hofstadter/i-am-a-strange-loop/_/R-400000000000000070218 vs http://www.amazon.com/I-Am-Strange-Loop-ebook/dp/B0014XUCQY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1278657602&sr=1-1
07:56:00 <coppro> Sgeo_: Good, now read it again
07:56:32 <Sgeo_> How about, maybe tomorrow
07:56:54 <Sgeo_> I also bought Nation by Terry Pratchett
07:57:05 <Sgeo_> A bit apprehensive since it's not Discworld, but still
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08:05:51 <Sgeo_> Hm, I think I tend to dislike serious
08:06:26 <Sgeo_> Although it's weird. The webcomics I read are generally considered to be humorous, but I sometimes read them more for the plot
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08:23:42 <Sgeo_> Is it possible to buy an eBook from Amazon and read it on a non-Kindle device?
08:25:46 <Sgeo_> What's with the claims that LCDs hurt eyes?
08:25:57 <Sgeo_> I can stare at my computer screen for hours, and not feel discomfort
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08:34:41 <Sgeo_> Why am I not considering waiting for an Android tablet?
08:43:57 <Sgeo_> My choice is pretty much between the Sony eReader Touch, and the Kobo, I think
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10:21:20 <fungot> CakeProphet: mysteries. to the left into an equally silent and still narrower alley with no light at all: and in a brief space i found myself after a time i insisted upon talking nervously and elaborately explaining my condition. i told you longe ago, do not watch him again.
10:32:09 <fizzie> The book-based styles are a bit boredom.
10:36:46 <fizzie> Certainly it's probably what I will be remembered for, after the inevitable robot insurgence.
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10:42:17 <Ilari> Yay... Found a way to supress those darn infinite objects (scale the scene down by factor of 1000). Results: ~23k frames in ~25 minutes.
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11:11:38 <fizzie> I've been dabbling more with the Descent rendering thing; just got player location exported from a recorded demo into Blender's animation curves; now I'd need the rotations too.
11:15:26 <Ilari> Now I'm doing Skyroads in fullHD. Sadly no graphics improvements yet.
11:16:50 <Ilari> (other than 4x the resolution).
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12:40:27 <augur> ╲╲╲╲╲╭━━━━╮╱╱╱╱╱ ╲╲╲╲╲┃┊◒◒┊┃╱╱╱╱╱ ╭━━━━╯┊╰╯┊╰━━━━╮ ┃╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮┃ ┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃ ╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯
12:41:14 <augur> according to stephen fry, this is paul the octopus
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12:47:11 <ais523> really bizarre spam: some server I've never heard of went and tagged it as spam, gave a large rundown of the reasons, then attached the original message
12:51:27 <AnMaster> ais523, ... is that the subject line?
12:51:59 <ais523> subject line is [SPAM?] SPAM: 8/7/2010......REMINDER......REPLY ASAP......
12:52:07 <AnMaster> "some server I've never heard of went and tagged it as spam, gave a large rundown of the reasons, then attached the original message" would be a really bizarre subject line of a spam though
12:52:26 <ais523> so would most of the lines said in this channel
12:52:29 <ais523> doesn't make it any more plausible
12:53:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I once got a spam with a subject line like (don't remember exactly, was quite a long time ago): [<project I never heard of, but valid open source project when googling>-commit rev 1234] <something about enlarging body parts>
12:54:07 <AnMaster> the first few lines were like a svn commit message too
12:54:23 <AnMaster> so my spamfilter didn't catch it
12:54:24 <ais523> it probably /was/ a commit message, someone sent spam to a commit address and it got accepted as a revision somehow
12:55:45 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc the project it "faked" was some sf.net one. I don't think they set it up that badly. Plus it didn't come sf.net when you checked headers
12:55:55 <AnMaster> or wasn't faking that as sender either iirc
12:56:33 <AnMaster> ais523, so that explanation, while neat, doesn't quite seem to hold up
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13:45:06 <AnMaster> some of the text books for the autumn that I ordered arrived today. There is one book about data structures and algorithms that seems to avoid to be biased to any specific language in it's examples.
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13:45:35 <AnMaster> when paging through it I spotted examples in lisp, java, C, C++, Modula-2, pseudo code and standard ML
13:52:26 <AnMaster> pseudo code seems to be most common, but the chapter on linked lists seems to use java mostly, lisp is mostly in the chapter on trees heh
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15:05:34 <oerjan> <cheater99> do python expressions/functions have the strong normalizing property? <-- given that functions can recursive infinitely, i would think they aren't even weakly normalizing
15:06:04 <oerjan> actually halting is a prerequisite for either, at least in lambda calculus
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15:33:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, no they will run out of stack space in python afaik?
15:34:16 <oerjan> that sounds like a very non-abstract thing to do
15:34:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean, python doesn't do TCO afaik, thus in practise it can't recurse infinitely
15:35:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, that limitation would probably be hit before both "hardware breaking" and "heat death of universe" :P
15:36:17 * oerjan whatevers AnMaster with the saucepan ===\__/
15:38:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, it can however iterate forever in any "imperative" loop construct
15:39:00 <AnMaster> ignoring hardware faults and heat death of universe that is
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15:50:01 <Sgeo_> I'm not allowed to use adjectives as a verb instead of grammaticizing properly?
15:50:36 <Sgeo_> Or adverbs for that matter?
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15:51:58 <AnMaster> * Sgeo_ tireds <-- tires or tired?
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15:52:17 <AnMaster> I'm not sure what tireds would even mean
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15:53:44 <Sgeo_> to tired, to be tired. same thing
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17:22:47 <cpressey> Anyone remember 'Stunts'? That was a cool game.
17:29:18 <cpressey> Of course, I'm a sucker for any game with a construction set.
17:29:53 * cpressey would commit unspeakable acts for a construction set in Katamari Damacy.
17:32:46 * Ilari would like to obtain information about tile compression in ROADS.LZS (to make level editor).
17:35:11 <fizzie> There's some sort of Stunts remake, I don't know how good it is.
17:35:32 <ais523> cpressey: if the acts are unspeakable, how does anyone tell you what they are?
17:35:59 <fizzie> I do remember the original, too: if you jumped and hit a building just right, sometimes the car would "bounce" up until it hit the top of the sky, then slowly "glide" into a corner of the level, then finally drop down.
17:36:07 <cpressey> ais523: They... play Charades?
17:36:24 <cpressey> Maybe let's not go down this road.
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17:37:47 <fizzie> Ilari: I've managed to rip the level polygons, textures (texture coords are a bit broken right now) and camera position + partially-working rotation out of Descent 1 datafiles + recorded demo now.
17:38:09 <fizzie> Ilari: Admittedly my task is significantly easier since Parallax released the Descent 1 source code, so I can peek at it.
17:38:16 <fizzie> (It's pretty horrible code, though.)
17:38:22 <Ilari> fizzie: Is demo playback deterministic? You know how to edit it?
17:39:08 <fizzie> It records "this is what you need to render at these positions and in this state" sort of demos, not "this is what the user gave as input" demos, so it's easier to extractify.
17:39:40 <Ilari> Ah... Not that useful...
17:40:12 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/test.mp4 has a xvidcap-recorded flythrough; the textures are pretty broken at times, and it's just the primary textures (so all decorations and doors and such) are missing, and of course all objects too other than the mine, but at least it's something.
17:40:33 <fizzie> (18 megabytes of video, vlc shows it just fine but mplayer breaks at the beginning.)
17:41:06 <fizzie> It's from Blender's 3d view, not rendered or anything. I don't have any lighting in place yet.
17:41:36 <fizzie> And I'm going to have to redo the materials anyway, 64x64 textures aren't very classy.
17:42:03 <Deewiant> [h264 @ 0xdb0120]concealing 3039 DC, 3039 AC, 3039 MV errors
17:42:22 <Ilari> Too bad one probably one can't currently TAS Descent. :-/
17:42:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: VLC also breaks at the beginning.
17:42:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: My VLC (well, the one at work) didn't.
17:42:56 <fizzie> It was some earlier version.
17:43:03 <fizzie> mplayer complains about "missing reference picture".
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17:43:40 <Deewiant> And then it repeatedly says "AVC: nal size 0", "no frame!", "Error while decoding frame!"
17:43:47 <fizzie> The "ffmpeg" binary at work wasn't supporting libx264, so no H.264 encoding, so I had to use the VLC that was there to convert it from a hundred-megabyte .avi that xvidcap put out.
17:43:53 <Deewiant> VLC says "AVC: nal size 0" and "no frame!" as well.
17:44:58 <fizzie> Hrm, VLC 1.0.6 started just fine, but then went to "AVC: nal size 0" problems.
17:45:05 <fizzie> Maybe I should rerecord it at home anyway.
17:45:13 <Deewiant> Yes, exactly. They both manage a few seconds.
17:45:58 <fizzie> For the reference, VLC 1.0.2 at work played it just fine.
17:46:28 <fizzie> Er, well... assuming I tried for more than few seconds. I may have looked at it through with mplayer (which managed after the messed-up beginning) and then just the beginning seconds with VLC.
17:47:02 <fizzie> I'll just go and rerecord it.
17:47:21 <Deewiant> Neither mplayer nor vlc get past the messed-up beginning in any way AFAICT
17:47:28 <fizzie> My mplayer at work did.
17:47:44 <fizzie> Possibly different codec versions and so on.
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17:47:58 <Deewiant> If I fast forward to some later time, mplayer shows a black screen and VLC the frame it was on before fast forwarding
17:50:40 <fizzie> I'll see if I manage to rerecord. It's just that with xvidcap's default settings, I get just 5.07 fps at home; I got the target 10 fps reasonably well at work, but that's a beefier machine.
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17:53:45 <Ilari> Heh... Write music generator to do the background music of this run (too bad I don't have the "artistic eye" for that)... :->
17:58:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I overwrote http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/test.mp4 with a smaller (~3 megabytes) version that does play correctly with mplayer here.
17:59:47 <fizzie> It's not especially smooth, but it'll be ugly anyhow.
18:00:38 <Deewiant> You're cheating and flying through walls
18:00:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's not a wall, it's a door. :p
18:01:02 <fizzie> Doors are animated "secondary textures" which I don't yet handle.
18:01:59 <fizzie> I'm probably going to turn doors into real objects with animation controls, and then just make the demo "door opening" events twiddle those around. So much to do, for such a completely frivolous reason, though.
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18:03:04 <Ilari> The HD render is up to ~43.1k frames of about 48.0k (has taken 7.5h).
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18:03:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you said you used the nwn level editor? I think I hit a wall in how to extract it from the windows installer on the dvd (presumably once that is done I could use use wine)
18:04:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so um, how do you go about that. Do you need to use a vm or such and copy files over?
18:04:23 <fizzie> Can't you run the Windows installer under Wine?
18:05:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe, I found installers to be kind of messy there, plus it will take a bit of cleaning up I suppose, since I don't want two copies of the whole data of nwn
18:05:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: In case you're disturbingly curious, this is what ends up in a recorded demo: http://sprunge.us/cYLc (just a short one-line overview of each event).
18:05:38 <fizzie> A throwaway ~/.wine directory with (new) default configs might make the cleanup easier.
18:05:59 <fizzie> Assuming the level editor manages to work without the registry entries generated by the installer.
18:06:19 <AnMaster> well one could copy those over, since iirc wine uses a flatfile for the registry
18:07:05 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to. You could even diff the "clean" .reg files with after-installation ones to find all changes.
18:07:43 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's around 20K (compressed) for a 27-second demo. Not bad, I suppose.
18:08:07 <AnMaster> still I hoped there was a simpler way.
18:09:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you mean the sprunge.us paste, it leaves a whole lot of details unprinted. The actual (27-second) demo file is 1557507 bytes.
18:10:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: I guess it still compresses at around the same ratio, so it's still not bad.
18:10:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: A recording of a Descent 1 game session.
18:10:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, it "7z a -mx=9"s into 329284 bytes.
18:11:28 <Deewiant> fizzie: Okay, that's slightly bad.
18:12:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: "3D first-person shooter", says Wikipedia.
18:12:42 <fizzie> It's relatively old (released in 1995) for being so actually-really-3D-and-not-just-faking-it.
18:12:53 <fizzie> Also it supported all kinds of freaky serial-port-connected virtual helmets.
18:13:01 <fizzie> All of which failed to be very commercially successful.
18:14:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: What the demo *should* look like is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYeu7-QtX04
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18:16:54 <Deewiant> The speedrun is even more disorienting than the game itself
18:17:59 <fizzie> I always got lost in the game; it's not exactly easy to navigate. There's the "automatically turn level to 'floor'" feature, but it was still a bit confusing sometimes.
18:18:32 <fizzie> Did some multiplayering over modem back then.
18:19:07 * pikhq laughs maniacally.
18:19:31 <pikhq> "In re Bilski" claimed the patent in question was unpatentable because it could be reduced to *mathematical formulae*.
18:19:44 <Deewiant> Yes, I always got lost as well. The automap didn't help.
18:20:00 <pikhq> Bitching. There goes all patents that can be represented in a TC language.
18:20:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I did it by running the Windows installer under WIne
18:20:50 <ais523> pikhq: ooh, that's a good catch
18:20:56 <ais523> where in the opinion does it say that?
18:21:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Was there a map too? I don't remember it at all, but I guess there was.
18:22:11 * Sgeo__ is considering taking Winforms programming
18:22:14 <fizzie> Was it a top-down view or what? Wireframe thing over the whole level?
18:22:16 <Sgeo__> Will this poison my brain?
18:22:37 <coppro> Sgeo__: if you're going that route, do WPF.
18:22:57 <Sgeo__> coppro, the school offers a Winforms course, not a WPF course
18:23:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_%28video_game%29#Navigation describes it a bit.
18:23:15 <coppro> (tip: I was not suggesting you actually take a WPF course)
18:23:16 <Sgeo__> Unless WPF is a part of Winforms?
18:23:27 <coppro> take the course if you must
18:23:41 <coppro> if not, go find a better use of your time than learning how to use a dumb GUI library
18:23:52 <coppro> realize that this is like taking a course in wxWidgets or GTK
18:23:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: "it isn't uncommon to suffer from nausea and confusion at first" -- especially if you have on a 20 Hz flickery virtual helmet that's tracking head-movement, I suppose.
18:24:17 <Sgeo__> coppro, I'm registering very late. Many of the courses are closed out.
18:24:18 <AnMaster> ais523, can you share data dir between linux and windows install?
18:24:22 <AnMaster> it seems such a waste otherwise
18:24:26 <ais523> yes, even with symlinks
18:24:34 <ais523> that's how I got the Linux data dir in the first place
18:24:38 <AnMaster> ais523, symlinks to wine? or the other way around?
18:24:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: I seem to recall my "Wingman Extreme" stick was reasonably good for Descent, because the 4-way hat could be configured to strafe.
18:24:54 <Sgeo__> Also, I think it would be nice to actually force myself to learn some GUI library
18:25:00 <AnMaster> I guess wine doesn't turn symlinks into *.lnk
18:25:05 <Sgeo__> I've.. never done GUI stuff before. VB doesn't count
18:25:06 <Deewiant> I seem to recall I played it using only a keyboard.
18:25:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean Linux symlinks, not Windows ones
18:25:29 <Sgeo__> Well, there's that one time with PythonCard
18:25:32 <AnMaster> ais523, the horror on windows are not symlinks :P
18:25:43 <AnMaster> they are like .desktop files rather iirc
18:25:55 <ais523> AnMaster: Windows /does/ have genuine hardlinks, though
18:25:58 <ais523> but /only/ to directories
18:26:10 <ais523> (as opposed to Linux hardlinks which can't be to directories, on most FSes)
18:26:53 <AnMaster> ais523, hm aren't . and .. like hardlinks?
18:27:03 <AnMaster> on the other hand they don't behave like ones when you rm them
18:27:19 <ais523> AnMaster: they do work a bit like hardlinks, yes
18:27:34 <ais523> and they increase the link count of the directory they point at
18:27:34 <pikhq> ais523: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/BilskiScotus08-964.pdf , page 15. Opinion of the Court. "The concept of hedging, described in claim 1 and reduced to a mathematical formula in claim 4, is an unpatentable abstract idea, just like the algorithms at issue in Benson and Fook."
18:27:42 <ais523> ugh, not precise enough
18:27:57 <AnMaster> ais523, rm -f . doesn't do what you would expect then (create a directory without the . hardlink)
18:27:58 <ais523> that doesn't say "mathematical formulas are unpatentable", just vaguely implies it
18:28:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, obviously, I doubt the FS allows it
18:28:10 <AnMaster> and plain unlink() doesn't work on directories iirc
18:28:37 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't /proc do some strange "hardlinks to other fs" thing?
18:28:59 <ais523> /proc, in many ways, is not a normal filesystem
18:29:59 <AnMaster> coppro, where did the k come from?
18:30:11 <Sgeo__> The class might be a way to force me to actually do GUI stuff
18:30:13 <pikhq> Previously, on page 14; "The Court concluded that the process at issue there was 'unpatentable under SS101, not because it contain[ed] a mathematical algorithm as one component, but because once that algorithm [wa]s assumed to be within the prior art, the application, as a whole, contain[ed] no patentable invention.'"
18:30:16 <coppro> Sgeo__: I wouldn't recommend it, but if it's the best option available, it probably won't kill you
18:30:37 <coppro> AnMaster: From a spelling you see in some fantasy works that want to feel that magick is special there
18:30:42 <Sgeo__> I think the other option is only taking one computer course this semester
18:30:53 <Sgeo__> Which would drive me absolutely bonkers
18:30:56 <coppro> tip: it's not, but it looks funny to me
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18:31:05 <pikhq> Also: "[...] while an abstract idea, law of nature, or mathematical formula could not be patented [...]"
18:31:27 <AnMaster> why is there winemine and a wine notepad
18:31:43 <coppro> pikhq: Hopefully that will hurt software patents
18:31:46 <impomatic> Patents? Did you see the alleged Shazam patent infringement?
18:31:53 <pikhq> coppro: Hopefully.
18:31:59 <ais523> just saw an interesting point on Slashdot: the sort of accounting used in Hollywood generally leads to negative profits, thus negative profits per sale
18:32:16 <ais523> therefore, movie piracy actually makes the film industry money, if you follow their own reasoning
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18:32:51 <ais523> coppro: this is because their reasoning is so screwed up, not any actual cause
18:33:28 <AnMaster> ais523, where exactly is the toolkit placed? I don't see any obvious .exe
18:33:29 <Ilari> ~45 560 HD frames in 8 hours...
18:33:50 <coppro> ais523: What soft of accounting is that?
18:33:51 <AnMaster> oh wait, "nwtoolset.exe", how could I miss that
18:33:52 <ais523> or something like that
18:34:05 <Sgeo__> Ugh, I need a course "Management Information Systems"
18:34:09 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still very buggy in Wine, you'll want to save often
18:34:18 <ais523> but at least it isn't unusable like it was in Wine as of a couple of years ago
18:34:45 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, it is truly confusing too
18:34:47 <Sgeo__> I don't think it would count as enough of a computer course to save my sanity
18:35:23 <AnMaster> ais523, where are the docs for it...
18:35:44 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not aware of any useful ones, but it didn't take me long to learn
18:36:11 <ais523> basically: module is the largest unit of anything, module contains areas (which you create using a wizard), with an area open you can use the pane on the right to add things to it
18:36:31 <AnMaster> oh wait you are restricted to one tileset per room? I had plans for a nice combination (ruins in wood)
18:36:32 <ais523> and right-click's used to customize things by adding scripts, etc
18:36:49 <ais523> yes, one tileset per area, although there are some ruin-like tiles in the forest tileset
18:37:05 <ais523> the only commercial game for Linux I ever purchased
18:37:21 <ais523> because it's a good game, and commercial games actually being released for Linux are really rare
18:38:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't purchase darwinia
18:38:29 <ais523> and "really rare" != "1"
18:38:37 <AnMaster> why did I read "purchased" as "released"?
18:38:48 <ais523> because I said "released" the line after, possibly
18:39:05 <AnMaster> ais523, still which is the tileset I speak of
18:39:17 <ais523> you may be thinking of Crypt
18:39:33 <ais523> it's also worth mentioning that the bridge tiles in Crypt and Forest look identical
18:39:42 <AnMaster> ais523, not the spooky ones. I decided to start out with "nice dungeon", like that mage in blackwater
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18:40:25 <AnMaster> Area 001, nice suggestion. Should call it Area 53
18:40:52 <AnMaster> wtf, ais523 the size selection, what is the units
18:41:16 <ais523> 2x2 is more or less the smallest practical
18:41:22 <coppro> from the CS145 (advanced first-year CS) page at UW: "Your C programs will be created using a text editor. We recommend using Pico, Nano, Vim, or Emacs."
18:41:25 <ais523> you can just stick a pre-made 2x2 unit down and have yourself a nice room
18:41:29 <AnMaster> ais523, eh, so how many tiles is an areatile
18:41:38 <ais523> AnMaster: what "tiles" are you speaking of?
18:41:49 <AnMaster> ais523, how does it work for stuff like ground and placing houses
18:42:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I somehow assumed it was using tiles somewhere below and hiding it well. that tends to be common
18:42:26 <ais523> it does use tiles, they're rather large though
18:42:36 <ais523> e.g. some of the tiles in City Exterior have two doors on
18:43:06 <AnMaster> ais523, and those are the area tiles?
18:43:13 <AnMaster> seems very limited in shapes then
18:43:18 <AnMaster> ais523, so port llast could be 16x16?
18:43:21 <ais523> there's quite a wide selection
18:43:36 <ais523> port llast is maximum size IIRC, I can't remember offhand if that's 16x16 or 32x32
18:44:14 <ais523> a typical house on the overworld is 1x2 or 2x2, some are 1x1
18:44:18 <AnMaster> ais523, hm how do I load the original game to check out maps there. When starting it it offered me to load various add-ons that came with it. But not the original from what I saw
18:45:01 <ais523> AnMaster: you see the directory called "nwm"? for each file nwm file in it, e.g. module1.nwm, copy it to the directory called modules with the extension .mod
18:45:14 <ais523> it's file-extension and file-system based DRM, in a sense
18:45:23 <ais523> change the directory, change the extension, suddenly you cna open it
18:46:03 <AnMaster> ouch, does this app have focusing issues...
18:46:44 <ais523> other bugs: some pop-up menus, if opened using the right mouse button, open twice and only one of the copies ever closes
18:46:49 <ais523> until you exit the app altogether
18:47:19 <ais523> and hierarchical lists (those with the [+] signs next to them) go crazy if you hover the mouse over certain areas, getting more and more confused until they eventually segfault
18:47:31 <ais523> also, every now and then it forgets all the textures making it impossible to see what you're doing
18:48:20 <AnMaster> ais523, um, what certain areas for such lists?
18:48:41 <ais523> AnMaster: generally entries that shouldn't be there
18:48:49 <ais523> either completely blank entries that appear for no reason, or duplicated entries
18:48:59 <AnMaster> okay how do I replace all the wall with some floor hm
18:49:14 <ais523> generally, just overwrite it with some type of floor, or with corridor
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18:49:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what about test playing it?
18:50:01 <Sgeo__> Idea: I shall take a web dev course
18:50:15 <AnMaster> ais523, okay now it says I can't save because start position is invalid
18:50:26 <ais523> AnMaster: "set start position" is the top-right icon on the right page
18:50:37 <ais523> and to test-play, save and load in the Linux client
18:50:45 <ais523> I recommend save-and-quit to help reset stability issues
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18:53:14 <Ilari> Rendering took 8h20min.
18:54:32 <Ilari> Estmated size: 135MB, ETA 27 minutes.
18:54:35 <pikhq> Why do C coders suck almost universally?
18:54:51 <Ilari> If you want more sucky coders, look at C++... :-)
18:55:00 <AnMaster> ais523, what about adding a door? Doorway I can manage but door?
18:55:01 <ais523> C++ is inherently impossible to code well, though
18:55:03 <cpressey> pikhq: Are you saying I suck almost universally?
18:55:05 <ais523> AnMaster: doors are an objcet
18:55:22 <AnMaster> ais523, somewhere in the list Features/Groups/Terrain?
18:55:25 <ais523> the right-hand pane, at the top, has a list of all the sorts of things you can add
18:55:31 <ais523> atm, it's set to area tiles, that's the top-left icon
18:55:37 <ais523> the row below has, say, monsters, doors, items, etc
18:55:43 <cpressey> pikhq: Never mind, I'm quite confused.
18:56:10 <AnMaster> ais523, this UI was designed by someone who didn't plan to release it
18:56:18 <AnMaster> aka it works if you know how it works
18:56:27 <ais523> generally speaking you want to customize monsters, unless their only purpose is to attack the player and die horribly
18:56:30 <cpressey> pikhq: I think the age of the language might have something to do with it. C's old, as it goes.
18:56:37 <ais523> AnMaster: it only took me about 5 minutes to figure out, it's a pretty easy UI
18:56:56 <ais523> that said, I even managed to figure out the scripting language just from looking at a few pre-existing scripts
18:57:06 <AnMaster> ais523, what about NPC with simple convo. Hm I guess I'll try to figure out door first
18:57:13 <pikhq> cpressey: Most code in other languages also sucks pretty poorly. The difference between good and bad code in C is just very, very clear.
18:57:46 <ais523> AnMaster: for a one-off NPC, you can place them first, then right-click, edit properties, edit conversation
18:58:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right. Okay I can rotate but I can't pan
18:59:13 <ais523> AnMaster: the mouse gesture to pan is to hold down the middle button, then while holding it click the left button, then drag
18:59:18 <ais523> and yes, I actually discovered that by experiment
18:59:32 <ais523> alternatively, you can use the arrow buttons below the map
18:59:41 <AnMaster> ais523, that doesn't work well with how I use the middle mouse button
18:59:46 <AnMaster> right and middle would be easier
19:00:07 <ais523> AnMaster: for all I know it isn't the simplest such gesture, after all I discovered it by experiment
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19:06:47 <pikhq> cpressey: The worst part is, that was his name in Japanese.
19:06:54 <pikhq> cpressey: They had a guy named Bug, too.
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19:13:34 <Ilari> Updated ETA: 9min, updated size estimate: 126MB.
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19:15:07 <ais523> Ilari: what was the original file, btw?
19:15:39 <Ilari> ais523: The orginal footage?
19:16:05 <ais523> yes, or at least, the source of whatever you were rendering and encoding
19:17:33 <Ilari> ais523: Sources: skyroads map data, motion dump + script.
19:17:51 <Ilari> The script gave 2.8GB in 48015 PNGs.
19:18:00 <ais523> I was mostly interested in what was scripting the motion
19:18:11 <Ilari> The script is written in Lua.
19:18:35 <ais523> no, as in, what the motion actually was
19:18:45 <ais523> was it just the camera zooming through the levels?
19:19:20 <Ilari> The motion data is depicted as camera moving (plus some bars for distance, speed, fuel and oxygen).
19:19:55 <Ilari> Motiondata looks like: "12,8265000010,29988,29952,34062,10240,202458,900,12:RA".
19:20:11 <ais523> what was the source of the motion data?
19:20:17 <ais523> grr, it's so hard to phrase this question correctly
19:20:29 <Ilari> Game memory while playing back movie.
19:21:04 <Ilari> Skyroads TAS (third version).
19:21:09 <AnMaster> ais523, what about altitude difference, how do you create that
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19:21:14 <ais523> that was the question I was trying to ask
19:21:22 <ais523> AnMaster: some tilesets have a raise/lower terrain type
19:21:28 <ais523> left-click to raise, right-click to lower
19:21:34 <ais523> although you can't lower beyond ground level for some reason
19:21:41 <AnMaster> ais523, for indoors stairs and such?
19:21:41 <ais523> some don't, because altitude-change tiles aren't implemented in them
19:21:49 <ais523> stairs are a sort of feature
19:21:56 <ais523> you'll find different sorts of stairs for different situations
19:22:04 <ais523> like stairs in corridor, stairs at corner of livingroom, etc
19:22:26 <AnMaster> ais523, is there an altitude change involved?
19:22:47 <ais523> it's just a tile which happens to be less flat than usual
19:23:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what about stairs with platform at top/bottom and then a door a bit further away?
19:23:13 <ais523> as in, the details of the actual shape of the tiles aren't something the editor bothers with, except to render them
19:23:27 <ais523> that's how all the stairs work
19:23:34 <ais523> there's a doorway built-in to the stair tile
19:23:39 <ais523> with nothing beyond it
19:23:52 <ais523> no, it's actually incredibly simple
19:24:04 <ais523> the simplest thing that could possibly work, more or less
19:24:37 <ais523> you can prove it in-game; find a stairway going upwards, open the door, then rotate the camera 180 degrees so the door doesn't trigger and click on the nearside of the door
19:24:46 <ais523> you'll end up in a black space with no way to go but back the way you came
19:26:09 <Ilari> Running same kind of render for skyxmas (from second skyxmas TAS).
19:47:39 <cheater99> oerjan: but functions in python aren't first-order objects
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20:08:12 * Sgeo__ decides that cheater99 is drunk or troll
20:17:52 <cheater99> so that i don't forget to tell him later
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20:43:05 <Sgeo__> I meant the comment about Python's functions
20:43:37 <Sgeo__> Unless by "first-order" you mean something other than first-class
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21:14:26 <zzo38> Can we make it that the file descriptors in the "fd" directory can be removed, created, and change symbolic links, that you can change file descriptors of a process in that way?
21:15:08 <Ilari> zzo38: Except those links are pretty magic...
21:16:12 <zzo38> Ilari: Like what kind of magic?
21:16:37 <zzo38> Can it be done, you can have a file /proc/$$/kill that if you write anything to that file it sends a signal to the process?
21:16:50 <zzo38> And that you can change permissions on the file to set who can send signals?
21:16:51 <ais523> zzo38: you'd probably have to change the kernel a bit
21:17:02 <ais523> changing permissions would be a lot harder, proc isn't a normal sort of filesystem
21:17:03 <Ilari> zzo38: Those links point to inodes, not really files.
21:17:21 <ais523> the problem is, that as soon as a process stops running, its proc directory disappears
21:17:35 <ais523> so changing it permanently wouldn't really make a lot of sense
21:17:45 <ais523> you have a very Plan9y sort of idea there, though
21:19:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Very Plan9y.
21:19:39 <pikhq> Also, yeah, all of /proc is pretty magical.
21:24:46 <zzo38> You wouldn't change it permanently, of course!
21:25:28 <zzo38> If the links point to inodes instead of to files, then the procfs should convert it once it is added?
21:26:40 <zzo38> There is /proc/$$/environ but maybe there can be /proc/$$/env/ directory for each environment variable one file?
21:27:10 <zzo38> And also a directory /proc/$$/9p/ which contains a filesystem that the process program can create itself.
21:28:36 <zzo38> And library function calls for X and stuff, that you can use a function call to add a predefined directory into /proc/$$/9p/ such as a directory that X can provide to send window message, that widget sets can provide to change/read values, etc.
21:29:10 <zzo38> And the program can have its own files in /9p/ as well such as if you have FTP client that the /9p/ directory contains the directories and files from the computer you connected to
21:31:49 <zzo38> And a new signal SIGVAP to cause it to remove a process and free its memory, unconditionally (cannot be caught or ignored), and does nothing else (so SIGCHLD is not sent to its parent process, etc)
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21:41:17 <zzo38> Where do I get a printout of CWEB?
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23:37:37 <cpressey> I have discovered that I have no love for AT&T.
23:37:57 <cpressey> How's it going with you? Did they pick you for jury duty?
23:37:58 <calamari> does anyone? they just wanted the iphone
23:38:10 <calamari> nope.. would have been a good one too
23:38:36 <calamari> guy was accused of possessing and transporting meth
23:38:55 <calamari> but it was inevitable I wouldn't be picked because they wouldn't want a libertarian on the jury
23:39:18 <cpressey> That could make things difficult, I suppose.
23:39:24 <calamari> because they'd end up with a hung jury
23:40:41 <wareya> I get caught with meth and I end up getting a mistrial
23:41:36 <calamari> thing is, drug dealers (at least if they have any sense) also hate libertarians.. because legalizing drugs would mean they were out of a job
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23:42:14 <wareya> I'm aware; I had a weed dealer living in my house for a while, and he joked about that all the time.
23:43:04 <wareya> He wasn't rich, but he got enough to sustain himself.
23:43:29 <wareya> He sold food that he bougth with foodstamps to his friends, so he must have had plenty to eat.
23:45:12 <calamari> okay this 4x4x4 cube is too easy now, need to get a 5x5x5
23:45:49 <cpressey> calamari: Are there any tutorials you can recommend for getting started with Atari 2600 coding?
23:46:03 <calamari> oh yeah.. who is that wanted to create his own os?
23:46:28 <calamari> cpressey: ooh, thinking of writing a game?
23:46:39 <cpressey> calamari: alise? At least? (Maybe me, except not really?) :)
23:47:07 <cpressey> Well, thinking of writing... something with colorful blocks... at least to start.
23:47:15 <calamari> does she have the atari 2600 basic programming cartridge?
23:47:35 <calamari> I think you can enter like 6 lines of code
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23:47:53 <wareya> I know someone who's trying to write an OS to run on N64 emulators
23:48:07 <cpressey> To be clear, it's me who wants to code something for Atari 2600 (not in basic though) and alise who wants to write an OS (presumably *not* for the Atari 2600.)
23:48:44 <calamari> argh I really need to fix my webpage
23:49:02 <calamari> looking for those links for you Chris
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23:50:09 <cpressey> Thanks. Well, I'm looking at the tutorials listed on http://www.atariage.com/2600/programming/index.html to start.
23:50:42 <calamari> here was a game I started but didn't finish due to not being able to get the paddle motion right http://kidsquid.99k.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=radialpong
23:51:15 <cpressey> When I learned that there is no "bitmap" for the VCS (that you have to write a display routine that manipulates the raster rather directly), I decided I had to write *something* for it, some day.
23:51:17 <calamari> but it shows step by step as I discovered things and fixed bugs, so maybe it'll help?
23:51:41 <calamari> yeah it's not the easiest system to program for
23:52:00 <cpressey> The earlier versions will probably help a lot as examples, yes.
23:53:23 <cpressey> Especially if I can compile it and hack around with it a bit.
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23:55:27 <calamari> note the link to the stella mailing list..
23:55:34 <cpressey> calamari: I really don't know yet :)
23:55:47 <calamari> http://www.biglist.com/lists/stella/archives/
23:56:35 <cpressey> Yes. I wrote a 2K game for the Commodore 64 last year (well, converted an old BASIC game to 6502).
23:56:56 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/bescape2k/
00:00:41 <cpressey> I think my favourite 2600 games are Adventure and Haunted House. Although I'm sure there were others I found enjoyable.
00:01:25 * cpressey wonders how close you could come to something like Sword of Fargoal on the 2600
00:01:35 <cpressey> Like, a really simple roguelike.
00:01:38 <calamari> honestly I am more a fan of the 5200
00:02:14 <calamari> well I have always dreamed of writing a roguelike for the 5200.. and have had many many false starts at it
00:02:42 <cpressey> I know almost nothing about the 5200, sadly. Or, really, any Atari that came after it.
00:02:59 <calamari> doing text on the 2600 is a pain and a half tho
00:03:33 <calamari> honestly I don't even understand how they pulled off basic programming
00:03:33 <cpressey> Well yes. I wouldn't take "roguelike" quite THAT literally. :)
00:04:40 <cpressey> Unfortunately I gotta take off now.
00:04:46 <calamari> I first tried porting Moria, but there is just no way to fit that game into 32k and still have it be Moria
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00:23:20 <calamari> CakeProphet, was it you who wanted to build an os?
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00:27:56 <coppro> calamari: just about everyone here
00:28:21 <calamari> oh well, I have a bad memory hehe
00:28:44 <calamari> coppro, oh, why do you want to write an os?
00:29:07 <oerjan> hey not me. far too lazy.
00:30:01 <coppro> though if I do a major project in assembly, it will probably be an implementation of the standard C library
00:30:07 <calamari> I talked them out of doing it in a virtual machine.. but I think that might actually be a better approach
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00:31:10 <coppro> calamari: sounds reasonable
00:31:20 <coppro> at least, working at first
00:31:32 <calamari> also you could port it more easily
00:31:36 <coppro> a VM is sure faster than loading it onto some media for a computer to use, then rebooting it
00:31:43 <coppro> VMs are processor-specific
00:31:53 <coppro> if your program works on an x86 VM, it works on an x86 VM
00:32:10 <calamari> but the os inside the vm, not necessarily
00:32:25 <calamari> at least if the vm is done right
00:33:46 <calamari> coppro, that's the whole point of a vm.. portability
00:33:53 <nooga> do you know some library for C that provides x86 assembler ?
00:34:01 <coppro> calamari: uh, usually not
00:34:02 <nooga> like asmjit but for C
00:34:09 <coppro> at least, not in the sense of VMWare or something
00:34:13 <coppro> if you mean a programming VM like Java, sure
00:34:28 <coppro> but implementing an OS would be done on a real-machine VM
00:34:47 <coppro> or at least a VM resembling a real machine (like MMIX)
00:35:04 <coppro> so you gain nothing by the fact that the VM is portable
00:35:16 <calamari> you only have to write the os once
00:35:30 <calamari> the vm is the only thing that changes
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00:35:39 <coppro> that's a horrible idea
00:35:58 <coppro> there's a reason that people code to ARM or PPC or what-have-you, rather than just running x86 VMs on them
00:36:20 <calamari> as a toy OS, I think it is fine
00:36:42 <calamari> it's not like you'd use an esoteric os day to day lol
00:37:12 <calamari> you are making the same argument I did before when I talked him out of it
00:37:49 <calamari> but I am thinking that is wrong.. for an experimental os, portability is good
00:39:13 <coppro> you're missing the point
00:39:21 <coppro> Portability is pointless for an OS
00:39:53 <coppro> real VMs are used for two reasons today, both of them dumb:
00:40:12 <coppro> #1 is because people want to run two OSes simultaneously because people won't make things interoperable
00:40:28 <coppro> #2 is because people are too lazy to implement proper sandboxing so they go for hypervisors instead
00:41:03 <pikhq> #3 is operating system development.
00:42:27 <Slereah> I mostly do it to play old games
00:42:33 <Slereah> Though usually, it doesn't work
00:42:59 <Slereah> The games that can't be played in DOS Box have usually great compatibility problems with modern computers
00:44:49 <coppro> okay, pikhq's snarky comment is correct
00:45:09 <coppro> the third and only real valid use of VMs does not require portability
00:45:29 <coppro> the notion of portability of an OS is silly anyhow
00:45:48 <Sgeo__> coppro, what proper sandboxes are there?
00:46:13 <calamari> coppro: is your argument meant to be convincing? lol
00:46:27 <coppro> Sgeo__: one of the BSDs (Net?) has very powerful sandboxing
00:46:32 <coppro> better than some of the VMs out there
00:46:40 <Sgeo__> coppro, how about for Windows?
00:46:51 <coppro> which is why we have to use stupid hypervisors
00:46:52 * Sgeo__ has some untrustworthy programs he wants to run
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00:50:47 <calamari> CakeProphet, connection problems?
00:51:22 <coppro> Sgeo__: get a Linux box and use Wine
00:51:47 <calamari> coppro: consider this.. running your os under brainfuck
00:51:51 <Sgeo__> I was thinking of running a full VM, but Wine.. might work
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00:52:08 <Sgeo__> Then again, it might not, so
00:52:14 <calamari> coppro, useful? hell no.. fun? yes
00:53:00 <Sgeo__> It occurs to me that denizens of this channel have a non-mainstream view of what is fun.
00:53:13 <calamari> but no way am I going to implement an os in brainfuck.. although maybe I could write the vm
00:53:34 * Sgeo__ vaguely considers making a PSOX2
00:53:45 <Sgeo__> Perhaps designed with a certain set of languages in mind
00:54:03 <Sgeo__> To try to ensure that it's not too language-specific
00:54:47 <coppro> Sgeo__: If Wine works, it's very good at sandboxing
00:55:07 <Sgeo__> coppro, a WINE-aware malicious program could break out easily, iiuc
00:55:07 <calamari> after all, I've already implemented a sort of asm in bf, and even bootstrapped it
00:55:09 <coppro> since most Windows exploits assume a Windows kernel
00:55:22 <coppro> Sgeo__: yes, WINE has very little specific security, that's true
00:55:26 <calamari> so implementing a vm asm wouldn't be much of a leap
00:55:28 <coppro> if you're really paranoid, chroot it
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00:55:55 <Sgeo__> What I need to try is of the "script kiddy" variety :/
00:57:02 <Sgeo__> More likely to try to steal a typed-in password than anything, which is why I'll be watching via Wireshark in any event
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00:57:17 <coppro> Sgeo__: then Wine will do fine
00:57:19 <Sgeo__> Is there any way to have to approve individual.. messages, in Wireshark?
00:57:32 <coppro> it's not cost-effect most of the time to write a Wine-specific exploit
00:58:13 <coppro> script kiddie stuff works on the basis that there are a thousand users. You pick an easy vector and attack, you'll still usually get a good return
00:58:26 <coppro> complex vectors like breaking out of Wine are not worth it
00:59:01 <coppro> the one thing to make sure you do is delete the z: and z:: symlinks
00:59:28 <calamari> at least with wine you can run without privileges
00:59:45 <Sgeo__> Also, it might simply be easier to boot up the old computer and run the Win98 VM that's on it
00:59:52 <calamari> create a new user account with sever restrictions
01:00:00 <Sgeo__> calamari, this is a one-time thing
01:00:10 <coppro> Sgeo__: by default, wine installs a drive that is z:, and it's linked to /
01:00:24 <Sgeo__> coppro, I knew that, but what's z::?
01:00:29 <coppro> the reference to the disk
01:00:51 <calamari> they also have a drive for your home directory
01:01:10 <coppro> calamari: Z:\home\username or w/e
01:01:25 <coppro> it's not a separate drive
01:01:31 <calamari> coppro, maybe it differs.. here it is
01:01:49 <Sgeo__> Why isn't YouTube HTML5 dealing wtih hd properly?
01:02:54 <pikhq> Because screw you.
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01:03:51 <calamari> it was pointed directly at a documents directory.. couldn't be standard lol
01:04:57 <Sgeo__> "Looks like one of those toys you play with when you were a kid" "Commodore 64?" "Triple-barrel shotgun?"
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01:17:19 <nooga> now i feel forced to write a simple run-runtime assembler lib for C
01:22:37 <nooga> i wonder if writing an assembler could be automated
01:23:07 <nooga> like uh, like i write a parser and some small engine and then feed it with eg. this file http://mprolab.teipir.gr/vivlio80X86/pentium.txt
01:23:20 <nooga> and it automatically knows how to translate mnemonics
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01:40:16 <Zuu> I would say... yes on that one
01:42:42 <Zuu> nice document by the way
01:43:11 <Zuu> it makes you want to write a small assembler :P
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01:59:03 <Zuu> actually, some data is missing in that document. It doesnt say where the results of instructions are stored
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02:20:33 <Sgeo__> Again, love you Chrome, for just ignoring me when I want to do something
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02:38:50 <SgeoN1> About to enter the seedy world of script kiddies
02:41:22 <SgeoN1> Is Ethereal 0.99.0 stable?
02:41:38 <SgeoN1> Or maybe I should boot up the winxp vm
02:45:54 <SgeoN1> WinXP boots so slowly sometimes.
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03:03:40 <Gregor> Who wrote "my other car is a cdr"
03:05:41 <mappy> you mean wireshark? 0.99.0 is quite old
03:06:57 <SgeoN1> Yeah, well, apparently that version is the latest one that runs on 98
03:07:19 <pikhq> Gregor: I'd be especially worried if a car was a cdr.
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03:14:56 <SgeoN1> Thank you, creepy survey, for telling me exactly what part of my information you realized was fake
03:15:10 <SgeoN1> And btw, 12345 s a real zipcode
03:15:23 <pikhq> Youtube has started hosting 4K video.
03:16:36 <pikhq> 4096p video. On Youtube.
03:16:36 <Gregor> No, I understood that.
03:16:57 <SgeoN1> No thanks, Mr. Survey, I don't want to give you a valid cell number
03:17:15 <pikhq> I will, however, note that this is IMAX quality video.
03:18:13 <SgeoN1> And no, I'm using Chrome, not Firefox
03:19:26 <SgeoN1> You are ... Eric Cartman!
03:19:35 <SgeoN1> Now, where's my download
03:19:59 <SgeoN1> Type in your Twitter username and passwors
03:20:30 <oerjan> er you are _sure_ you're not being fished?
03:21:04 <SgeoN1> I'm sure that I want the dang download at the end
03:21:17 <SgeoN1> Which itself I don't trust further than I can throw it
03:21:38 <SgeoN1> But that's what Wireshark is for
03:23:24 <SgeoN1> Oh. Now I look at the source and there's something about clicking something if the download doesn't unlock
03:25:26 <SgeoN1> Refreshing the page gave me the file, finally
03:26:31 <SgeoN1> And........... it doesn't work, at all
03:30:24 <SgeoN1> I never thought I'd be happy to see RapidShare
03:31:33 <SgeoN1> At any rate, I will be testing on a fake account, and monitoring via Wireshark
03:39:44 <SgeoN1> It occurs to me that a malicious program might send the data obfuscated or encrypted
03:40:14 <SgeoN1> And I still haven't figures out how to get it to do reverse DNS automatically
03:42:24 <SgeoN1> Figured it out, I think.
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03:48:41 <zzo38> CWEB compiled the first time, and the program works (it can generate a PDF of the codes), but if I try to compile it again a second time I get a lot of error messages.
03:49:36 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong?
03:49:37 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/AjRY
03:49:45 <zzo38> Is there any IRC for CWEB?
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03:53:52 <Rafajafar> does DOT language count as an esoteric language?
03:55:33 <zzo38> Rafajafar: What DOT language?
03:56:01 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dot
03:56:16 <zzo38> I don't know about graphviz
03:58:08 <zzo38> Note: It is solved. The problem was that it is unable to use the change file /dev/null on Windows, so you need to make a blank file instead. (I might fix CWEB so it doesn't need that)
04:04:53 <zzo38> Rafajafar: For more information about esoteric programming, please see the wiki.
04:05:34 <SgeoN1> Rafajafar: By DNA I meant Douglas Adams
04:06:33 <SgeoN1> It was bothering me yesterday that I should have simply said Douglas Adams
04:22:03 <zzo38> I probably have to learn a few things about TeX so that I can make some changes in CWEB, such as adding line numbers in the margin, and so on. And then I need to add a "meta-macros" (or "pre pre pre processor macro") mode
04:23:27 <zzo38> Other things I want to change, is so that the " around string constants are not printed in fix pitch (only the actual string text should be fix pitch), and perhaps to make it if you have a code with \ that the \ and letter (or " or so on) after \ will be printed overtyped on the \ in the same place
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04:23:58 <zzo38> And, a way to print arrays of structure data as tables
04:25:34 <zzo38> I also don't like the way the == operator is printed, I should make it print as just one equal sign, and = assignment operator as a left pointing arrow (with space around it). For things like += it can print the + sign above the left arrow
04:27:30 <oerjan> SgeoN1: what you mean you were _not_ reading the genetic code? how disappointing.
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05:07:55 <Gregor> Which has a high-definition 480x272 screen.
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05:08:35 <oerjan> To zuck or not to zuck, and zoon!
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05:15:19 <Gregor> I DIDN'T EVEN DO THAT INTENTIONALLY
05:15:25 <Gregor> The friggin' UI got me all kerplunked.
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07:24:38 <zzo38> Do you write any just intonation music?
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07:43:52 <zzo38> Or write any music for any other rational or irrational tunings other than standard 12-TET?
07:44:22 <zzo38> I have experimented with both rational and irrational tunings.
07:47:21 <zzo38> In my opinion, musics written for equal temperament should always be played as equal temperament, and just intonation music played as just intonation.
07:52:36 <zzo38> One scale I have done is the notes are (x*(3/2)^y) where x ranges from 1 to 8 and y from 0 to 4.
07:53:59 <zzo38> Another one is ((x/8)*(2^y)) where x ranges from 4 to 7 and y is an octave number.
07:55:10 <zzo38> And then there are irrational scales, (2^(n/12)) (standard), (3^(n/13)) (Bohlen-Pierce), and (5^(n/30)) (something I was making one day)
07:55:42 <zzo38> And even transcendental tunings!
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08:02:16 <coppro> needs more complex numbers imo
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08:20:34 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I have even considered tunings with complex numbers. This requires making the sine of complex numbers, and somehow use the real and imaginary components.
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08:58:49 <Ilari> Sine of complex numbers is easy if one has (real) sin and exp functions available. Dunno about using real and imaginary components.
08:59:36 <Ilari> Presence of (real) cos, sinh and cosh speeds things up somewhat, but lack of those is easy to circumvent.
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09:03:49 <mappu> at the end of the day, a musical tone is a frequency... and i don't think a complex frequency is that useful
09:04:10 <mappu> unless you have some way of 'hearing' complex frequencies
09:05:11 <Ilari> If one takes real part of sin(f_z*t+w), the result is exponentially increasing or decreasing volume if f_z has nonzero imaginary component.
09:09:44 <zzo38> Ilari: That is what I meant, doing something like that......
09:10:06 <zzo38> And then use the imaginary component for something else......??
09:11:04 <Ilari> Except that imaginary component is similar signal, but shifted 90 degrees...
09:13:23 <Ilari> If one has multiple channels with complex volumes, frequencies and phase shifts, one could use exponential waveforms. And then feed real component to left and imaginary component to right.
09:14:05 <zzo38> Yes, you can do that, if you try
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10:18:21 <CakeProphet> and a programming language idea for when I finish the server.
10:21:06 <CakeProphet> a semi-lazy prototype table-based language.
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10:22:44 <CakeProphet> tables are constructed with logical combinators.
10:23:36 <CakeProphet> commands parse words numbers and strings, blocks are commands with an ending {} block
10:24:32 <CakeProphet> ucommand defines a user command. If places in the right namespace (on a room, in the global namespace,
10:25:05 <CakeProphet> you can cause users to activate commands with a special scoping operator.
10:25:59 <CakeProphet> namespace is any table. modules are tables, logical objects are tables, and MUD objects are tables.
10:28:57 <CakeProphet> @ is the namespace operator that allows you to switch over to MUD objects and go back to code modules as well.
10:29:10 <CakeProphet> what's cool, is that MUD objects could be built from very interesting table combinators
10:29:29 <CakeProphet> for example, a union of multiple tables, difference, etc.
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10:33:23 <CakeProphet> two kinds of data structure. algebraic data types and tables.
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10:34:22 <CakeProphet> and structural type. So two data types with the same construction are equivalence.
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15:15:16 <oerjan> <Ilari> If one takes real part of sin(f_z*t+w), the result is exponentially increasing or decreasing volume if f_z has nonzero imaginary component.
15:16:48 <oerjan> note that if you consider that the frequencies of sound appear by fourier analysis, it doesn't really make sense to use non-real arguments for the sines.
15:17:51 <oerjan> well unless someone has generalized it and it does. but i don't know about that.
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15:54:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, how is sin defined for complex values?
15:55:11 <oerjan> sin z = (e^(iz)-e^(-iz))/(2i)
15:55:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, I always found it spooky the way that pi, e and trigonometry ties together
15:56:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, aren't you going to ask what the obvious pun was?
15:56:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, I will tell you anyway then
15:56:54 <oerjan> i assumed it was something about morals
15:57:17 <AnMaster> of course it is in fact a class of puns
15:57:39 * oerjan doesn't understand the "in hell" part
15:58:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, when considering it I don't understand it either
15:58:23 <AnMaster> it was obvious a few moments ago though
15:58:45 <AnMaster> I guess it passed the best before date
15:59:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!! Something to do with that?
15:59:37 <oerjan> best before the big bang
15:59:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, never heard that before, so no
16:00:03 <pikhq> Someone missed out on memes. :P
16:00:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, ooh I know the answer to that one!
16:00:31 <oerjan> SOMETHING. SOMETHING. SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:01:00 <oerjan> full disclosure: i haven't seen the movie either.
16:01:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, all your sparta is belong to something we put in your mom so you could lolcats while you lolcats
16:01:01 <pikhq> Which I've not seen.
16:01:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: Nicely done.
16:01:25 <SimonRC> okp: I was the lucid dreaming one
16:01:45 <AnMaster> at least ones I could think of
16:01:53 <SimonRC> okp: when there was litle immediate reward, I lost most of my interest
16:02:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh wait, replace something with mudkips
16:02:43 <oerjan> http://www.overclock.net/attachments/hardware-news/123486d1253298081-inq-recompute-cardboard-pc-case-tonight-we-dine-hell.jpg
16:03:37 <AnMaster> anyway "hell" would be wrong period for a movie about sparta
16:03:47 <AnMaster> seriously, the greek called it something else
16:04:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but hades was in three sections iirc
16:04:19 <AnMaster> one was like paradise, one like "boring people" and one like hell
16:04:26 <oerjan> well there was elysion (the good one)
16:04:48 <AnMaster> that is the bit I can't recall either
16:05:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, also I don't think it is spelled "elysion" in English and/or Swedish
16:05:17 <AnMaster> I distinctly remember an u there
16:05:56 <oerjan> -um is just latinization of the greek
16:07:04 <pikhq> Arguably, "hell" is a perfect translation, because "hell" was referred to as "Hades" in the New Testament.
16:07:12 <pikhq> (it *was* in Greek...)
16:10:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, btw there is one meme I missed, as reminded of in another channel:
16:10:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> init: all your sparta is belong to mudkips we put in your mom so you could lolcats while you lolcats
16:10:57 <pikhq> Yes, much like Cell's power level, it is indeed over 9000.
16:11:25 <AnMaster> I don't know where the 9000 thing comes from
16:11:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Cell is a character in Dragonball Z.
16:11:36 <pikhq> His power level is over 9000.
16:12:03 <pikhq> They... Dropped power levels soon after.
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16:13:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: Kinda hard to keep a straight face when you've got exponential power increase going on.
16:13:46 <pikhq> (ah, stereotypical shounen)
16:13:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: Unspecified!
16:13:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, just make it a logarithmic scale
16:14:07 <AnMaster> and you can do it without seming idiotic
16:14:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Have you ever *seen* DBZ?
16:14:47 <pikhq> This was a show which had a rerelease that consisted of remastering the video *and cutting out a third of the series*.
16:15:11 <pikhq> Sorry, two thirds.
16:15:15 <pikhq> AND NOTHING WAS LOST.
16:15:29 <pikhq> I don't think seeming idiotic was among their worries.
16:17:21 <AnMaster> <oerjan> IT'S OVER ACKERMANN! <-- alternative reply: Nothing to worry about as long as the reading isn't off the scale
16:18:03 <pikhq> I seem to recall that they managed to get an entire season into 2 episodes without cutting anything of importance.
16:18:19 <AnMaster> ooh anyone remember that badger meme? Seems to have died out
16:18:43 <pikhq> BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER MUSHROOM MUSHROOM!
16:19:15 <pikhq> After a couple iterations of that, instead of MUSHROOM MUSHROOM, AAAAAH ITS A SNAKE!!!
16:19:58 <fizzie> I seem to remember "SNAAAKE, IT'S A SNAAAKE"; but maybe it was a generic shout in front instead.
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16:26:58 <Deewiant> How do you people not remember these things
16:27:42 <pikhq> MY BRAIN IS FINITE
16:27:59 <Deewiant> It's (badger{12} mushroom{2}){4} badger{11} a snake, a snake, snake, a snaaake, ooohhh it's a snake
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16:29:11 <Deewiant> I /might/ have got the 12 and 11 wrong and there may've been some variation there; I know there are occasional plurals and articles ("a")
16:30:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: Look, progress: http://zem.fi/~fis/bot.png (I managed to extract one of the polygon models, though the picture cheated a bit by setting up parent/child relationships and submodel offsets manually in Blender (based on numbers spewed out by the script) since the .obj file format doesn't support that sort of stuff; I need to figure out a better way to import things to Blender.
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16:36:30 <fizzie> There are 26 formats in the "import" menu and I have no clue which one would be both really simple to write (like Wavefront .obj is) but also complicated enough to handle a hierarchical object where subobjects have an offset from parent. (Though of course I could "flatten" them down by applying the offsets to the submodel vertices; I don't think those parts actually move, except perhaps when it's morphing between models.)
16:37:47 <fizzie> Maybe I should go via VRML; it at least has a structure.
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17:00:48 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> It's (badger{12} mushroom{2}){4} badger{11} a snake, a snake, snake, a snaaake, ooohhh it's a snake <-- you just checked?
17:00:54 <AnMaster> or did you actually remember that?
17:01:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when did you last watch it? and did you actually count or did you just remember that after casual viewing?
17:01:27 <Deewiant> I don't know, years/months ago
17:01:32 <AnMaster> because if the latter you have some sort of photographic memory
17:01:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still you have an exceptionally good memory :P
17:02:04 <Deewiant> No, I just remember useless things
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17:02:39 <pikhq> Deewiant: You have a memory for the most useless things.
17:02:48 <pikhq> How many digits of pi?
17:03:19 <Deewiant> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944
17:03:39 <Deewiant> Less than before, and might have an error or si
17:03:56 <AnMaster> 3.1415<something that makes it round upwards so it is really 3.1416>
17:04:47 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's some number of digits man.
17:05:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, how many do you remember
17:05:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just use the pi button :P
17:05:16 <pikhq> I could've sworn you could only have natural, greater-than-or-equal-to-0 digits.
17:05:24 <AnMaster> I think it is to 14 decimals on my TI-83+
17:05:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, still way more than me :P
17:06:02 <pikhq> Good enough to calculate the circumfrence of the Universe to within an atom is good enough for me!
17:06:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, of course I remember them all. In base pi.
17:06:37 <Deewiant> 2.78182818284590452 and 1.6180 for the other two usually-requested constants
17:06:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm what is 1 in base pi of pi is 10?
17:07:17 <AnMaster> it can't be the integer 1 I assume?
17:08:16 <pikhq> Deewiant: Graham's!
17:08:34 <AnMaster> "2.7 but round upwards" and "1.6"
17:08:40 <AnMaster> are the bits I remember of those
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17:09:18 <Deewiant> Do you people remember your phone numbers? :-P
17:09:46 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes. That is the only phone number I know.
17:09:50 <AnMaster> I do however remember numbers I call often
17:10:23 <pikhq> There's a notable lack of the Alise today.
17:10:24 <Deewiant> I remember the first phone number I added to my mobile phone; I haven't called it in years (ever?) and it may not be valid any longer
17:10:51 <pikhq> I expect he's either been sent to the death panel or in Norway by now.
17:10:59 <Deewiant> In addition to my own, my parents' now-nonexisting landline's, and two or three others
17:12:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: American politics joke. It was claimed that universal health care was going to make death panels to DETERMINE WHO WOULD DIE!
17:12:43 <pikhq> If this were true, clearly the UK would have one and Alise would be before one.
17:12:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: US politics is fucking nuts.
17:13:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, this was in some political cartoon or such?
17:13:27 <pikhq> People seriously claimed that universal health care would result in people over 60 being sent before a death panel to determine whether or not they should *remain alive*.
17:13:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, this was the position of the Republican Party.
17:13:52 <AnMaster> .... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath
17:14:09 <pikhq> Did I happen to mention that US politics is fucking nuts?
17:14:33 <pikhq> They also believe that in every other country there's several-year waiting lists for all procedures.
17:14:44 <pikhq> And that the US has the best health care system in the world.
17:15:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: How many bankruptcies do you see from health care costs there?
17:15:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, not for all procedures. Mostly for transplanting
17:15:27 <pikhq> Yes, and those same waitlists exist for transplants here.
17:15:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I mean people.
17:15:46 <pikhq> Still none, right?
17:15:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, none in Sweden at least
17:16:00 <pikhq> Here, something like 60% of all bankruptcies are because of healthcare costs.
17:16:08 <AnMaster> you have to pay up to a max limit of some 1500 SEK or such iirc
17:16:28 <AnMaster> and if you can't afford that there are ways to get help with it
17:16:40 <pikhq> That's... Freaking ridiculous.
17:16:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, don't know, try google to convert
17:16:58 <pikhq> That's a single visit to a doctor's office or something.
17:17:07 <pikhq> (before insurance)
17:17:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, no, that costs about 100 SEK or such in general
17:17:20 <pikhq> (which not everyone has)
17:17:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, in the US you can't get any care for that little.
17:17:49 <pikhq> Even counting insurance.
17:18:21 <pikhq> And people felt that this was the best thing in the world.
17:18:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, of course most health care is run by state in Sweden. Though there are some private practitioners too. But the amount of paper work to be allowed to run private healthcare is ridiculous I heard
17:18:38 <pikhq> Having a system where the average person can barely afford regular appointments.
17:19:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Can't beat the paperwork involved in private healthcare in the US. Each insurance company (and there's *several*) has their own paperwork to deal with in order to be able to deal with them.
17:20:06 <pikhq> And *then* there's Medicare. (the government-funded healthcare system for those permanently disabled and over 60 years of age)
17:20:09 <AnMaster> of course there are many insurance companies here too
17:20:22 <AnMaster> but I don't know that works in Sweden
17:20:34 <AnMaster> I mean paperwork for being able to run private health care legally
17:21:03 <pikhq> Mmm, yeah, there's probably a bit more of that.
17:21:12 <pikhq> The US just tops you in paperwork to run it practically.
17:22:55 <pikhq> Oh, this was also fun. Another talking point of the Republicans: "Keep the government's hands out of our Medicare!"
17:23:06 <pikhq> (Medicare, once again, *is run by the government*)
17:23:58 <AnMaster> idea for renaming: Republicans → Idots; Democrats → Somewhat less idiots
17:24:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, where are the non-idiots?
17:24:37 <AnMaster> oh wait, in Europe or powerless
17:24:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Highly marginalised by our press.
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17:25:44 <pikhq> It's in the interests of the owners of our press.
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17:28:39 * pikhq is clearly a bit bitter about stuff.
17:31:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, you live in US. Only to be expected
17:32:23 <pikhq> The only thing we're allowed to spend on is pointless waste projects to appease other senators, and the military. Joy.
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17:43:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: Heh-eh, I converted my .obj output mess to instead write a hierarchical VRML 1.0 file that has separate nodes (with translations) for the submodels. Then I imported it into Blender: it ignored the translations, *and* folded all polygon faces into a single mesh. At least the .obj importer can separate different groups to different objects.
17:44:02 <pikhq> Saluton, vi. Kiel vi fartas?
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17:47:06 <pikhq> Malesperantkomprenas, mi pensas.
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19:10:49 <zzo38> Do you know how to make TeX so that the plus sign appears above the left arrow but without too much space in between, so it is closer together, and does not become hard to read with the text on the above line?
19:11:16 <zzo38> I did get it to put the plus sign above the left arrow but it is not close enough together
19:11:20 <ais523> that sounds like the sort of thing LaTeX is good for
19:11:39 <ais523> there's a command for combining text, etc, above an operator, although I can't remember what it is offhand
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19:13:02 <zzo38> So far this is what I have: \def\MRL#1{\mathrel{\let\K=\relax#1{}\above0pt\leftarrow}}
19:13:16 <zzo38> And it makes it too far away and hard to read because it is too close the above line
19:16:05 <ais523> haven't seen you here for ages, if ever
19:16:17 <ais523> but I respect what you do in the esolang world
19:16:28 <AnMaster> zzo38, try the normal over-thingy plus some negative spacers
19:16:29 <pikhq> It be calamari again.
19:19:03 <calamari> ais523: funny, i ve been here a lot lately
19:19:21 <ais523> I have a habit of missing people who come here intermittently
19:19:34 <zzo38> AnMaster: Actually I did try putting a negative number there in place of 0pt and it doesn't work
19:19:36 <ais523> especially if they live in a different timezone
19:23:33 <zzo38> Any negative number is just like zero, it seems
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20:08:41 <zzo38> AnMaster: Actually, I looked at the "TeX for the Impatient" book, and found the \overleftarrow command, so I used that instead and that works like how I wanted (except I wanted the arrow underneath, but above is OK, too, as long as it is consistent)
20:09:34 <zzo38> Now I have: \def\MRL#1{\mathrel{\let\K=\relax\overleftarrow{#1}}}
20:10:40 <zzo38> I do still have a question: How can I make it print line numbers in the margin?
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20:25:33 <zzo38> And, how can I do overtyping in TeX so that two things appear in the same place?
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20:40:00 <Sgeo> I think my definition of compiler must be off
20:40:21 <Sgeo> I thought it was simply a translator, but an assembler translates, so unless an assembler is a compiler...
20:41:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: An assembler is a particular kind of compiler.
20:43:23 <zzo38> I suppose even different assembler programs might have a few extra features or some things missing
20:43:32 <Sgeo> IRP> Please, compile some Japanese into English
20:43:42 <zzo38> And there is also "High-Level-Assembler"
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21:06:32 <fizzie> I think I've done overtyping in LaTex with "\makebox[0pt][l]{... stuff ...}... more stuff ...", where the 0pt-width \makebox makes it think the first "... stuff ..." doesn't take any space, so it puts "... more stuff ..." on top of it. I doubt this is relevant any more, though.
21:21:27 <Ilari> Now the script does special things with special tiles (burning tile has kind of lava texture, slippery tile looks icy/glassy, boost tile has stripes running forward, sticky tile has stripes running backward and suppiles blocks have stripes). Additionally there is sky texture.
21:22:59 <Ilari> Looks a lot nicer. HD render of Skyroads is at approx 3.4k frames out of 48k.
21:30:05 <ais523> Ilari: I look forward to seeing the final resuly
21:32:17 <Ilari> Now, its only missing some music... But that's more difficult thing than graphics side...
21:42:41 <AnMaster> <zzo38> I do still have a question: How can I make it print line numbers in the margin? <-- trying to remember
21:44:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, can you upload a partial preview?
21:47:43 <Ilari> HQ encode is already 43MB. Wonder how large the final HD one will be...
21:53:49 <Ilari> But, before uploading this to YT (if I wind up uploading it there), I need to make 2304p (4K) version. :-)
22:00:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about uploading some awesome looking frames?
22:02:58 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
22:03:46 <Ilari> Well, the most avesome frames are at fairly end, but I think there's some good screenshot material within already rendered segment...
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22:07:49 <Ilari> AnMaster: http://imagebin.ca/view/E-h-TiiW.html (I resized it to 720p).
22:08:14 <Ilari> That shows the burning block being lava.
22:10:25 <fizzie> Ilari: Perhaps you could snatch some NASA pictures for the background; that fluffy-clouds thing doesn't really suggest "you might run out of air" to me.
22:10:44 <fizzie> In other news, texture coordinates for extracted polygon models: http://zem.fi/~fis/bot2.png
22:12:16 <Ilari> http://imagebin.ca/view/LRA3qf.html shows the slippery texture (looks bit too glassy instead of icy to me, but...)
22:13:08 <fizzie> It's a bit too mirrory to look icy.
22:14:40 <Ilari> One fun thing is that it needs (almost) 2π sterradians of background image data.
22:16:43 <fizzie> It seems that I do need to keep the Descent submodels as separate entities, because the recorded demo includes a list of rotation angles for each submodel separately (so apparently the bots do move their arms and so on).
22:17:41 <Ilari> To make it look really cool, one would have to redo the models to be less polygon-y.
22:19:22 <Ilari> From those renders one can see why there's no finished Stellar Express. Basically, that game sucks if view is too low.
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22:26:24 <Ilari> And no, I'm not "TAS anything Skyroads" (there's one guy who's "TAS anything shining") guy (otherwise I would TAS Kosmonaut too).
22:27:35 <Ilari> Actually, it needs more than 2π sterradians, as one can get backreflections from slippery floors.
22:28:59 <Ilari> Basically, I think the space angle needed is two times the display area (forward and backward beams).
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22:31:18 <fizzie> For the level 1 demo it seems I need just 9 polygon models (5 7 32 39 40 46 62 64 75) in renderable quality. Though then there are all the sprite-based effects and animations to recreate. Fneh.
22:34:35 <Ilari> The Lua script that reads the level and movment descriptions and makes the scenes and calls povray to render them: "375 2405 13389 ../map-to-pov". Not exactly small.
22:35:48 <fizzie> I've managed to construct quite a bit of Perl for this insanity, too: http://sprunge.us/SSfS
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22:47:32 <Ilari> I would have liked to decode the level data from ROADS.LZS instead of using memory dump, but I don't know how to decode the tile data. Oh, well.
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23:03:37 <AnMaster> <Ilari> AnMaster: http://imagebin.ca/view/E-h-TiiW.html (I resized it to 720p). <-- cool
23:04:25 <AnMaster> <Ilari> http://imagebin.ca/view/LRA3qf.html shows the slippery texture (looks bit too glassy instead of icy to me, but...) <-- cool
23:04:38 <Ilari> 10k frames done...
23:06:44 <AnMaster> <Ilari> From those renders one can see why there's no finished Stellar Express. Basically, that game sucks if view is too low. <-- ?
23:07:21 <Ilari> Doing 10k frames took about 2 and half hours...
23:07:56 <AnMaster> I mean it would take far longer on my computer
23:08:03 <Ilari> There's demo for game called stellar express, which would have been fourth game in series, but it was canceled because the makers couldn't make it fun.
23:09:11 <Ilari> Skyroads (there's three games related to that).
23:09:36 -!- calamari has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:09:45 <Ilari> And worse yet, there are two games that internally call themselves "Skyroads".
23:10:46 -!- calamari has joined.
23:11:12 <calamari> if you mentioned the series, I missed it
23:11:12 <Ilari> Skyroads Xmas special is at least marked as "Skyroads Xmas special". But Cosmonaut internally calls itself "Skyroads".
23:12:41 <Ilari> calamari: Connection closed (as system message).
23:13:11 <Ilari> I.e. Read(2) gave 0 (end of stream).
23:14:03 <calamari> because the oom killer destoryed it when I ran out ofmemory.. android browser takes a lot
23:15:08 <Ilari> This computer has 50MB available RAM, but I think it could take few GB from caches if needed...
23:15:24 <Ilari> Cache size is about 5.5GB.
23:15:57 <AnMaster> * calamari has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
23:16:40 <calamari> this phone has 192 MB ram.. more than your computer?
23:16:51 <AnMaster> calamari, no I have 1.5 GB RAM in my desktop
23:17:15 <AnMaster> total used free shared buffers cached
23:17:40 <AnMaster> the swap is... reasonably fast. Split over two disks
23:17:46 <calamari> what command did you use to get that?
23:18:04 <AnMaster> /dev/sda3 partition20964761033881
23:18:04 <AnMaster> /dev/sdb3 partition20964761032921
23:18:36 <calamari> I deactivated my swap, it was killing my microsd cards
23:18:57 <AnMaster> well this thing has 2x 1 TB SATA
23:19:36 <AnMaster> swap separate partitions are separate but same priority
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23:19:39 <calamari> my computer is obsolete, but that's ok
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23:19:46 <AnMaster> which means kernel will do interleaved access to it
23:19:52 <AnMaster> calamari, so is this. CPU from 2004
23:19:53 <calamari> works great for what I use it for
23:20:39 <AnMaster> well that is what is in my laptop
23:21:41 <AnMaster> but it is a thinkpad. Will last for ages
23:21:44 <calamari> 5.25" and 3.5" floppy drives :)
23:22:17 <AnMaster> I have a non-working 3.5" floppy drive in it
23:22:26 <Ilari> This computer was brought not becoming too slow to be useful soon in mind (probably not going to get new one soon). That's why it has fairly high specs.
23:22:35 <calamari> my laptop is old, got it when someone upgraded hehe
23:23:14 <AnMaster> Ilari, my desktop was upper-mid segment when I got it!
23:23:22 <AnMaster> and for my laptop, battery time was important
23:23:22 <calamari> but its way better than my first laptop, which had a 486 dx4 50mhz and 24mb ram .. lol
23:23:41 <AnMaster> calamari, my first laptop had a 300 MHz PPC
23:24:24 <calamari> I got it for school so I could run turbo assembler and etc in class, worked great for that
23:25:30 <calamari> my first computer was an ibm xt clone (8088) with 640k ram and 20mb hard drive
23:26:08 <Gregor-W> They had directories by then, right?
23:27:09 <Gregor-W> Oh foo, next week's my birthday then I'll be 24. Can't possibly make some inane argument about how I'm in my "early 20s" any more.
23:27:18 <calamari> the dos shell sucks pretty bad compared to bash, but you had complete control of the computer, so that part was awesome
23:27:47 <calamari> ms-dos had a kernel.. kinda lol
23:28:18 <calamari> but respect.. it was hand coded in asm
23:28:40 <AnMaster> I'm too close to that age to be able to claim it
23:28:44 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: Thanks for the confidence that I'll die at 48
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23:29:01 <fizzie> There was a 386 I had with a 40 MB disk, and it had to be partitioned into two pieces because DOS didn't support file systems more than 32 MB huge. (DOS 3.2? 3.33? I seem to think 3.33 was the one that broke free of that particular limit, but it could've been some later one too.)
23:29:47 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, which day in next week? So I know when to congratulate you
23:30:46 <calamari> anmaster gonna give him a birthday bj?
23:31:32 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I'm terrible at remembering things -_-
23:31:45 <Gregor-W> `addquote <calamari> anmaster gonna give him a birthday bj? <AnMaster> IF ONLY I COULD FIND MY PHONE
23:31:51 <Gregor-W> This makes sufficiently little sense to quote :P
23:31:55 <HackEgo> 193|<calamari> anmaster gonna give him a birthday bj? <AnMaster> IF ONLY I COULD FIND MY PHONE
23:32:33 <Gregor-W> They sure do make advanced smartphones nowadays!
23:32:36 <calamari> wish my phone had THAT feature lol
23:32:58 <Gregor-W> Well lesse, there's Encountr, that's pretty close (if you have an Android)
23:33:16 <AnMaster> IF ONLY I COULD FIND MY TI-83+
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23:33:27 <AnMaster> (to calculate which year to put in the phone)
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23:33:42 <Gregor-W> You're upping the creepy here.
23:33:51 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I know. It was intentional
23:34:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, it refuses to add bday notation without you giving a year
23:34:20 <Gregor-W> <AnMaster> Now if only I could find his birth minute and then adjust for timezones!
23:34:24 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, the thing is, that is the ONLY way I will remember to congratulate it
23:34:32 <Gregor-W> Alternatively, you could just ... not?
23:34:46 <Gregor-W> It's sort of an odd thing to congratulate anyway ...
23:34:50 <Gregor-W> "You managed not to die this year!"
23:34:57 <calamari> assuming you have it, facebook will tell me
23:35:03 <AnMaster> it is USUAL to congratulate it
23:35:09 <AnMaster> calamari, I don't have facebook
23:35:11 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: Maybe I'm just a grim person :P
23:35:30 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, also aren't you happy you didn't die this year
23:35:43 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, would it be better if we congratulated your death?
23:35:52 <calamari> anmaster then you're missing out on gregors extreme (ultimate?) croquet pics
23:35:57 <Gregor-W> No, that's also creepy. And people totally do.
23:36:15 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, apart from villains?
23:36:15 <Gregor-W> calamari: And my super-insightful posts X-P
23:36:43 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: A wake just has a different label, but it's otherwise the same :P
23:36:46 <AnMaster> I assume Gregor-W can use codu.org for it
23:37:08 <Gregor-W> Most of my extreme croquet pics are from other people who tagged me.
23:37:11 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, no people feel sorry for that person there and it isn't a party as such
23:37:26 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, "extreme croquet pics"
23:37:38 <AnMaster> and it is imperative that I do not use facebook
23:37:48 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, extreme in what way?
23:38:08 <AnMaster> like halfway up a mountain? With flamingos?
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23:38:41 <Gregor-W> See e.g. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30466996&l=e7806e6190&id=1055580469 (which does not require a FB account to view)
23:39:24 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, ah, how did that happen, and strange way to hold the club
23:40:21 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, suggestion croquet-chessboxing
23:40:56 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, for the latter in case you haven't heard of it, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing
23:41:51 <Gregor-W> See also http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30180711&l=d3b858761c&id=1055580469
23:42:32 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, you should totally have chosemytrenchcoat
23:42:46 <Gregor-W> And people keep harassing me over the lack of choosemytie
23:42:57 <Gregor-W> Basically people want to dress me every morning.
23:43:07 <Gregor-W> Presumably because when I dress myself I look all flamboyant and eccentric?
23:43:31 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, sorry about that one
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23:45:54 <Gregor-W> Anwho, considering the fact that I am currently wearing an orange shirt with a yellow-and-purple tie and a "steel"-colored hat, I can understand why people who aren't me think they can dress me better than I can :P
23:46:02 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, "So much fury. So much result. So little of value (the ball moved about a foot)."
23:46:13 <AnMaster> so you aren't very good at playing? :/
23:46:24 <Gregor-W> The leaves made that shot more difficult than it looks :P
23:46:26 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, use your own colour matcher!
23:46:48 <Gregor-W> To make everyone's eyes bleed.
23:47:13 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, why do you want that
23:47:38 <Gregor-W> Also, this orange shirt and this yellow tie TOTALLY go together.
23:47:41 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, wait, why are you at work on Sunday?
23:47:44 <Gregor-W> Regardless of what anyone else says.
23:47:51 <Gregor-W> Not that that's much of an answer :P
23:47:57 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, question still stands
23:48:15 <Gregor-W> Deadline on Monday and stuff's not done.
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00:06:41 <Ilari> Heh, first frame Satellite Road 3 exit is visible: #13377. Last frame: #14078. So ~700 frames, which is about 11.6s. In that time, the ship moves 70 tiles. So structures are visible at least 70 tiles out...
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00:24:30 <Ilari> Those frames are nothing special. Actually larger structures are visible 120+ tiles out.
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00:25:15 <Ilari> (in that case, the structures were 1 unit wide, 2 units high and couple units long blocks).
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00:36:59 <fizzie> Heh, I *was* wondering why the texture selection looked a bit strange; turns out there's two more levels of indirection from "texture numbers" to actual bitmap indices.
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00:39:27 <fizzie> Now they look a lot more sensible: http://zem.fi/~fis/bots.jpg
00:39:44 <fizzie> (Though the reactor isn't actually supposed to be lurking there.)
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01:27:27 <Ilari> Second round of "spot the exit pipes". 5-3 this time. Start: #19066. End: #20196. So about 1130 frames (110+ tiles).
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01:33:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, what is the goal and such in that game
01:33:42 <AnMaster> I never played it, and since you said levels where hard I'm unlikely to
01:35:45 <Ilari> Skyroads? Make to exit pipe and drive through it without crashing your ship (too hard), falling off the road, running out of time, running out of fuel, running into dead end or touching burning block.
01:36:23 <Ilari> Kosmonaut had some additional ways to die (and funny messages when you failed).
01:36:58 <ais523> aren't burning blocks effectively like gaps in the floor?
01:37:01 <ais523> or is there a difference?
01:37:08 <ais523> (apart from glitch-bouncing on the burning ones?)
01:37:55 <Ilari> I don't think there's other difference. In fact, locking algorithm treats burning blocks the same as gaps (something I exploit in one level).
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01:39:52 <Ilari> To do X5-2 and X10-3 at full speed, one needs to really glitch the burning block.
01:40:59 <Ilari> Basically the ship bounces from the burning block (but game doesn't recognize it) and then jump is done off burning block.
01:41:24 <Zuu> its grease!
01:41:30 <Zuu> you've got it all over you
01:41:47 <Ilari> GreaseMonkey: Skyroads.
01:41:55 <Ilari> GreaseMonkey: Actually, Xmas special of it.
01:41:58 <Zuu> oh skyroad! i remember that!
01:42:04 <Zuu> It was an awesome game :D
01:43:29 <Zuu> it was crazy when you had just played a map where you jump really high, and then begin to play a map where your ship barely jumps at all :P
01:43:50 <Ilari> Its amazing how badly you can destroy The Earth road 3 (the infamous "ship is leaking!" level) with frame-perfect play. In fact, you don't even have to lose a frame there.
01:44:12 <Ilari> 7-1 had lowest possible gravity (100), and 7-2 had highest (1700, NO JUMPING AT ALL).
01:44:30 <Ilari> GreaseMonkey: Arrows and space, IIRC.
01:44:58 <Ilari> GreaseMonkey: And then there's P (found that by trying) and ESC.
01:45:20 <Zuu> actually, isnt it only the left/right arrow
01:45:33 <Zuu> or did you have the ability to control speed?
01:45:36 <Ilari> Up/down => Acceleate/decelerate.
01:45:48 <Ilari> Xmas special had 1600 gravity, which was just enough to jump one block.
01:45:50 <Zuu> Sooo so long ago i played that game ^^
01:46:26 <Ilari> TASing those games has gotten to the point where even race conditions are abused.
01:46:31 <Zuu> I dont think i ever tried no special edition
01:47:33 <Ilari> Many times when TASing Skyxmas, I was like "WTF? Did they really expect somebody to make through this in realtime???".
01:49:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, you made it through in real time ever?
01:50:15 <Zuu> and what does that_ mean?
01:50:17 <Ilari> I have made through 28 of 30 Skyroads levels and 3 of 30 Skyxmas levels in realtime.
01:50:51 <Zuu> AnMaster: is it a hack to slow it down?
01:50:54 <Ilari> (From Skyroads everything except Druidia 2 and 3, and from Skyxmas only snowbounds).
01:51:41 <Ilari> Zuu: Play it frame at a time with ability to undo mistakes. In the end, one gets single play through it as result.
01:52:16 <Zuu> sounds like an incredibly boring way to play a game
01:52:35 <ais523> Zuu: it's more for fun in watching the final result, than in playing it, I expect
01:52:45 <Zuu> ah, makes sense
01:53:38 <Ilari> GreaseMonkey: Usually those refer to savestates and frame advance (through there are others).
01:54:40 <AnMaster> Ilari, aren't there automated speedruns. I seem to remember zelda oot with a tool to calculate optimal paths over the terrain
01:54:51 <AnMaster> that would require no human input for those bits
01:55:29 <Ilari> Yeah, there's scripting too.
01:55:48 <AnMaster> just a set of "goto, x,y,z" "climb to x,y,z" "go to x,y,z", "hit green button", ...
01:56:20 <Ilari> And then there's TASes like Lunar Ball that have way more computer-generated input than human-generated.
01:56:46 <AnMaster> Ilari, was that the one that modified randomness to generate the end of the game object next to you?
01:56:50 <Ilari> All those shot angles were caluclated.
01:57:21 <Ilari> Nope, and that one was obsoleted, the current version generates the end of game object straight under you.
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03:26:57 <Gregor> pikhq: DOOD AUTOJOIN #MICROCOSM YAJERK
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03:39:44 <zzo38> *Finally*, I managed to figure out how to make Enhanced CWEB to print out the correct line numbers! At least I could do it in one day.
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04:54:29 <ais523> hmm, you know how Python does multiline comments?
04:54:35 <ais523> JavaScript is now using the same technique for /pragmas/
04:55:00 <zzo38> I don't know how Python does multiline comments
04:55:04 <ais523> ECMAScript 5 has a pragma to be stricter
04:55:23 <ais523> (multiline comments in Python are normally done by trapping them inside strings and throwing away the result)
04:56:00 <coppro> ais523: oh, docstrings, right
04:56:14 <coppro> but, seriously, pragmas in strings. wtf
04:56:27 <zzo38> OK, that is like, I have never done it. I have never written any programs in Python other than these: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/ruleset/
04:56:28 <ais523> it does have a certain horrible logic to it
04:56:51 <zzo38> Maybe it is done that way for compatibility?
04:56:54 <coppro> what if you evaluate a function in no context and it returns that string
04:57:13 <zzo38> Yes I can think of that too, it probably isn't supposed to do that!!!??
04:57:51 <ais523> yes, it's for compatibility
04:57:57 <zzo38> Maybe it should require you put a minus sign before the string, in a statement by itself, might help a little bit?
04:58:00 <ais523> coppro: doesn't trigger the pragma, it's lexical
04:58:12 <zzo38> Like: -"use strict";
04:58:21 <coppro> _Caring _About _Compatibility _Too _Much _Is _Dumb
04:58:46 <coppro> (although ECMAScript is a speical case)
04:59:03 <ais523> oh, it's a C99 reference
05:01:26 <zzo38> Perhaps load some of these files tell me if you like this game or not
05:01:47 <pikhq> _Especially _As _Posix _Says _Screw _The _Rules _Anyways.
05:04:08 <zzo38> Maybe I will add in more changes and then release "Enhanced CWEB version 0.1"
05:04:50 <coppro> I'm honestly surprised restrict was made a keyword
05:05:53 <zzo38> I don't know how commonly used it is
05:06:15 <zzo38> But if you don't like it to be a keyword, you can write #define restrict restrict_
05:06:41 <ais523> coppro: it's for an important reason, it makes C99 as expressive as FORTRAN
05:06:53 <ais523> the numerical calculations people were looking for something to migrate to
05:06:55 <coppro> ais523: I mean rather than having <stdrestrict.h>
05:06:58 <ais523> and C99 had a few changes to appease them
05:07:09 <ais523> coppro: ah, with _Restrict the keyword?
05:07:37 <coppro> I'm not a fan of the C committee because of that
05:08:29 <pikhq> For some reason they did all the legwork of making C90 code work, and then they missed an obvious point.
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05:17:20 <zzo38> Now that I have TeX, maybe it means I can make a file for Icoruma and Icochash to send output to TeX file, as well
05:18:02 <zzo38> Every time you pick up a club card you have to say "It has three dots!" and then be crazy.
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05:32:35 <Gregor> Got new ties from SolidColorNeckties.com!
05:32:47 <Gregor> Which is like my favorite bizarrely-specific site EVARS!
05:33:08 <ais523> wow, I have so much trouble finding solid-colour ties
05:33:12 <ais523> I may have to look at that site
05:33:29 <Gregor> I can't decide if you're kidding or not X-D
05:33:39 <Gregor> But if you're not, I highly recommend it!
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05:34:09 <Gregor> I have: Lime green (this thing will BURN RETINAS), purple, and now pink and peacock blue - ALL OF THEM ARE AWESOME.
05:34:17 <pikhq> It's actually a difficult thing to find in stores. They prefer somewhat shitty patterns.
05:34:21 <ais523> although I normally go for shades of blue
05:34:27 <pikhq> Gregor: You like eye-burning don't you.
05:35:04 <coppro> pink ties are important
05:35:29 <coppro> (http://www.mathsoc.uwaterloo.ca/images/logo.jpg should explain why)
05:35:32 <Gregor> I have ... uhh, three ... more than I have pink shirts to wear them with, but then I usually pair pink ties with purple, or green if I'm feeling like murder.
05:35:45 <Gregor> I remember the Waterloo pink ties!
05:36:41 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm not sure whether I want to stab you or high-five you for the idea of green and pink.
05:37:07 <Gregor> coppro: Last time I wore a pink tie to a conference people asked if I was from Waterloo :P
05:38:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Green and pink, plus I have an AWESOME sort of electric blue hat (not yet on the hat site since I bought it this summer) to go with it!
05:38:33 <Gregor> It's an outfit that LITERALLY KILLS PEOPLE.
05:38:43 <Gregor> But it's pretty awesomebad :P
05:38:47 <coppro> pics or it didn't happen
05:38:53 <ais523> Gregor: you're one of the few people likely to turn up in this channel that could actually pull that off
05:38:57 * pikhq is actually laughing out loud.
05:39:21 <Gregor> coppro: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30595531&l=c65d70c86e&id=1055580469 closest I have a picture of
05:39:33 <coppro> that's actually not that bad
05:40:09 <Gregor> I have to laugh at the speed with which I brought up a green-and-pink combo picture :P
05:40:21 <Gregor> Ah yes, my bad style is known far and wide! I didn't even take that picture :P
05:40:36 <pikhq> coppro: That's a pink-on-yellow tie you know.
05:40:48 <pikhq> Gregor: Which CA was that again?
05:40:53 <Gregor> That tie is pink-on-other-shade-of-pink
05:41:03 <ais523> Gregor: actually, green and blue is considered the worst color combo around
05:41:10 <ais523> at least green and pink has a shock factor to it
05:41:12 <ais523> green and blue just looks bad
05:41:20 <pikhq> coppro: Cellular automaton.
05:41:24 <Gregor> I don't usually combine green and blue :P
05:41:41 <Gregor> I try to go for either actually matching fairly well, or mismatching so horribly nobody can possibly think it wasn't intentional.
05:41:43 <pikhq> ais523: Depends on the shades of blue and the context.
05:42:05 <pikhq> Typical clothing colors, though?
05:42:25 <Gregor> Oh that's it. Now I have to wear a green shirt with a blue tie tomorrow :P
05:42:39 <pikhq> Gregor: Congrats on defeating the dress code.
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05:43:01 <Gregor> BTW, the tie in that photo is easily the best tie ever.
05:43:29 <Gregor> http://www.zazzle.com/rule_30_tie-151512244542121452 OMG SO MUCH AWESOME
05:43:59 <coppro> I like the recommended ties
05:44:35 <pikhq> Gregor: http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 This is actually a good-looking tie.
05:45:13 <Gregor> Somebody in this channel recommended I make that after I showed the yellow-and-dark-purple rule 110 tie.
05:45:17 <Gregor> But I totally don't wear black ties.
05:45:19 <Gregor> That's rife with lame.
05:47:34 * Sgeo wears a cyan tie in AW
05:48:36 <coppro> Sgeo: I repeat the necrophilia comment
05:49:03 <Sgeo> coppro, you going to keep repeating that comment even after it's stale and dead?
05:49:26 <Gregor> In that case I can toootally still call you pooppy.
05:49:30 <coppro> because that's how I feel
05:49:43 <coppro> the fact that someone quoted me is irrelevant, imo
05:50:24 * Sgeo was trying to make a joke :/
05:50:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Have you considered bow ties?
05:50:41 <Gregor> I have exactly one bow tie.
05:50:51 <Gregor> And in spite of the fact that it's awesome, *eh*
05:51:11 <pikhq> Wear with top hat.
05:51:16 <Gregor> I mean, the number one reason to wear a necktie is to have a brightly-colored arrow pointing at one's crotch at all times.
05:51:19 <Gregor> And a bow-tie just doesn't do it.
05:52:00 <pikhq> I repeat, wear with top hat.
05:52:20 <Gregor> I heard you the first time :P
05:52:33 <pikhq> THEN WHY ARENT YOU RIGHT NOW
05:52:36 <Gregor> Next time the top hat is voted for (which will be in late-August at the earliest) I'll wear the bow tie.
05:52:44 <Gregor> Because my top hat is 2,000 miles away :P
05:52:45 <pikhq> ALSO, CLEARLY THE TOP HAT IS THE BEST HAT
05:52:59 <Gregor> My top hat is showing its age.
05:53:04 <Gregor> I need a new one, but they're all so damned expensive.
05:53:13 <pikhq> Yes, but it is the best kind of hat.
05:53:34 <Gregor> I disagree and cite the fez.
05:53:51 <pikhq> Okay, okay. I'll grant you that.
05:53:59 <pikhq> However, the top hat is a highly awesome hat.
05:53:59 <Gregor> Which is LIKE a top hat.
05:54:13 <pikhq> And you can wear it in formal contexts and be *perfectly* valid in doing so!
05:54:31 <Gregor> I'm never in formal contexts :P
05:54:50 <Gregor> And if I was, I would be exactly to code while actually being crazy and flamboyant and totally not formal at all.
05:54:50 <pikhq> You can also just look awesome with it.
05:55:06 <Gregor> Hair down, green striped jacket with a yellow shirt and pink tie and a red fez!
05:55:20 <pikhq> Alternately, wear white tie formal dress.
05:55:33 <pikhq> (note: only if you have money to spare. Needs tailoring.)
05:56:11 <Gregor> Now I think I'm going to wear blankets.
05:56:23 <pikhq> You'll note that I'm a fan of archaicisms. ;)
05:56:31 <Gregor> Only no blankets because it's friggin' hot in here.
05:56:45 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Atat%C3%BCrk_in_white_tie.jpg And you cannot deny that this looks more awesome than a tux.
05:59:37 * Sgeo tries to update his mental model of awsistors to reflect the fact that they reside in multiple universes that can interact
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06:10:23 <oerjan> so basically you need a more awsome model?
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06:16:39 <zzo38> Now you have to learn this game too http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png or perhaps you prefer the sequel game? The sequel game even has some self-referencing and talking tree and talking spider, and library with top secret basement, globe you spin and find country nobody has ever heard of, and other stuff but sequel game is not finished being made yet
06:20:29 <Sgeo> Crap, I accidentally pasted part of a legal document into a chat room
06:21:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: What type of legal document was it? Is that secret?
06:22:05 <Sgeo> It was something that I don't think should have been revealed to the world. I don't _think_ it needed to be top secret, but I'm not sure
06:23:35 <Gregor> Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
06:23:41 <Sgeo> Just told my dad, he's mostly worried about the fact that my last name was in there
06:24:14 <Gregor> Keep us apprised of all developments in this matter.
06:25:42 <zzo38> Can you play a strange time signature 54/32 and playing 12 notes at once
06:26:06 <Sgeo> That reminds me, what's the difference between 4/4 and 2/2?
06:27:04 <Gregor> Sgeo: Technically there is no difference. But the implication of using 2/2 is that you should be keeping two beats per measure, not four.
06:27:19 <Gregor> Sort of like how 6/8 is two beats per measure, even though it's mathematically equivalent to 3/4's three beats.
06:30:13 <zzo38> 6/8 is called compound time, so you count differently. But the same amount of notes fill up a bar as 3/4 it is same as same fractional
06:30:47 <Gregor> Didn't I just say that? :P
06:31:34 <zzo38> But 6/8 is like two groups of three
06:34:31 <Gregor> And 12/8 is four groups of three 8-D :P
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06:50:02 <zzo38> Now play this music http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img4/Death_waltz.jpg
06:50:31 <pikhq> Ah, the Death Waltz.
06:50:48 <coppro> "Arranged by Accident"
06:53:57 <Sgeo> Surely it can be done by computer
06:54:27 <coppro> that music does not make /sense/
06:54:54 <coppro> such as the bar with three clefs; one in 66/66 time, one in 66/1 time, and one in 1/66 time
06:55:44 <pikhq> I once heard a professed performance of it.
06:55:59 <Sgeo> gradually become agitated"
06:56:01 <pikhq> Well, of something that consisted of all invalid portions of musical notation removed before performance.
06:56:22 <pikhq> Still: it's a freaking joke.
06:56:28 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx02KOGhjes ?
06:56:31 <coppro> "release the penguins"
06:56:54 <Sgeo> "Please change the title, since this is not John Stump's "Faerie's Aire and Death Waltz".
06:56:54 <Sgeo> It's an arrangement of the beloved theme of Flandre Scarlet from a Touhou game, and the arranger tried to approach John's musical joke piece in terms of complexity and note density (and got quite close).
06:56:55 <Sgeo> But the title is still wrong."
06:56:55 <pikhq> coppro: I believe that is actually valid.
06:56:57 <ais523> pikhq: what did it sound like?
06:57:06 <zzo38> Double-double sharps. Repeat marks with nothing to repeat. Twenty-three notes at once. Extremely wide dynamics. Different time signatures in different voices. Different key signatures in different voices.
06:57:25 <Sgeo> What I linked is still fun
06:58:37 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faeries-aire.gif Better copy.
06:59:31 <zzo38> Yes that is a better copy
07:00:10 <ais523> hmm, I'm reminded vaguely of Desert Bus
07:00:31 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0E/deathwaltz2.jpg
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07:00:54 * Sgeo wonders how possible it would be to capture the notes without the.. nonsense
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07:02:15 * Sgeo is now known as necrophile
07:03:17 <pikhq> http://lostinthecloud.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/john-stump-composer-of-faeries-aire-and-death-waltz/
07:03:24 <pikhq> By the guy's nephew.
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07:05:50 <coppro> I love the Motoring Accident
07:06:12 <Sgeo> Is it playable?
07:06:30 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not on the instruments it asks for.
07:07:23 <zzo38> I have never seen key signatures with double-flats (or double-naturals) before
07:08:21 <Sgeo> "This is actually unplayable"
07:08:28 <Sgeo> Can any of it be played on computer?
07:08:51 <coppro> Sgeo: Some of it could
07:09:03 <Sgeo> o.O at "Start Over"
07:09:33 <pikhq> Actually, you could get all the notes in.
07:10:16 <coppro> you couldn't get the instructions though
07:10:38 <Sgeo> Surely you could make a video though..
07:10:38 <pikhq> I do like that it ends with "I've got blisters on my fingers".
07:11:24 <coppro> (although only a computer could switch violins in a sixteenth-rest)
07:11:41 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkjX7Q-b1IM <3 the comments
07:11:52 <pikhq> coppro: ... Or have a chord spanning multiple octaves. On a violin.
07:12:03 <coppro> pikhq: it's not a solo
07:12:10 <coppro> didn't you read the text?
07:12:34 <pikhq> Still too few instruments.
07:12:47 <ais523> a really good score should have all sorts of implausible requests for the instruments too
07:12:54 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCgT94A7WgI
07:12:59 <ais523> like "the violin must be played with a crowbar at this point"
07:13:20 <pikhq> "Use the most expensive violin that exists at the time of this performance."
07:13:39 <pikhq> Followed by "Smash the violin. You're a rock star now."
07:13:53 <ais523> ugh, I don't like mindless vandalism
07:14:05 <coppro> "If you are a 2nd Violinist, please do not use a 1st Violin. Use the 2nd Violin you were issued."
07:14:05 <ais523> what about "fold this score into an origami drum and hit it as follows:"
07:14:26 <pikhq> ais523: Okay, okay.
07:14:37 <coppro> that one sounds difficult on a violin
07:15:00 <pikhq> "Flip page upside down and continue playing from the new top of page."
07:15:10 <ais523> pikhq: Bach actually wrote a piece like that
07:15:13 <coppro> I like the the giant notes to be played mezzoforte
07:15:15 <ais523> well, it was the same both ways up
07:15:25 <coppro> oh, there's fortemezzopiano
07:16:04 <pikhq> Frog should be an instrument.
07:16:24 <Sgeo> Wait, which song are we on?
07:16:37 <ais523> hmm, the score should also have a TC control structure, shouldn't it?
07:16:47 <pikhq> In a Minor (Motoring Accident)
07:16:50 <ais523> "swap your instrument with the player to the right, then repeat if you just played a c"
07:18:27 <ais523> repeat marks should happen in different places for different players, too
07:18:45 <pikhq> ais523: Instant round!
07:19:04 <coppro> but that seems like something a shrewd composer would actually do
07:19:52 <coppro> I missed the Death Waltz bit where the upper staff gets a note below the bottom staff on ledger lines :D
07:19:57 <ais523> insane music might work better looking vaguely plausible than implausible
07:20:14 <pikhq> coppro: How's about having an RNG determine where you go to for a coda?
07:23:38 <zzo38> Three string instruments, one tuned to 12-TET, one to 12-JI, one to Bohlen-Pierce, and one person plays the typewriter as a music instrument. Some notes have to be sustained for five years. Some notes are out of range. Some notes you have to play differently depending whether or not it is leap year. One guy has to commit suicide half way through but still has to continue playing the music.
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07:24:48 <zzo38> I also like the things about the crowbars, and about flipping the music.
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07:25:39 <pikhq> I'm liking the mezzopianofortemezzoforte.
07:25:52 <zzo38> You have to put blisters on your fingers to play this music.
07:26:09 <pikhq> zzo38: Sounds very much like Helter Skelter.
07:26:49 <coppro> ais523: see the last one on that page
07:27:06 <pikhq> Just about performable.
07:27:52 <pikhq> Though the last note goes off the page.
07:28:35 <zzo38> Add additional Italian notations having nothing to do with music, such as "ragno" or "scopone"
07:29:01 <pikhq> zzo38: Molto burro al crema.
07:29:26 <zzo38> Only people whose last name is not starting with "K" is allowed to play this music.
07:30:20 <pikhq> Oh, very nice touch.
07:30:45 <pikhq> The back of In A Minor (Motoring Accident) is a designated drawing area for violaists.
07:31:08 <zzo38> On statutory holidays you can be given an exception, but only if the first letter of your first name is not a F with three dots directly above it.
07:33:36 <zzo38> The 17.25th soloist must be a big monster (not human) if this is impossible you must skip directly to the 17.26666666665th frame.
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07:34:25 <zzo38> The last note of the entire piece of music is too loud that anyone hearing it will die or something
07:34:39 <zzo38> But the first one is too quiet you don't know if you started yet or not
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07:36:28 <zzo38> You have to throw the dice to determine whether or not the conductor switches places with the first violinist or whether the pianist must now play an anvil instead.
07:37:31 <coppro> (it's the latter if and only if the result of the 17 dice thrown (with sides in the Fibbonacci series, starting from 3) is prime)
07:37:33 <zzo38> After 1/sqrt(2) of the way through, everyone must sing in different languages that nobody else knows.
07:37:38 <Sgeo> Prelude and the last hope?
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07:45:21 <ais523> the tune should have volumes measured in megabels
07:46:30 <Sgeo> ais523, I.. which tune? I don't see anything in Prelude and the last hope
07:46:56 <ais523> Sgeo: we were discussing hypothetical silly music
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08:51:58 <AnMaster> I have decided to use spivak on IRC, all over.
08:54:13 <coppro> Spivak is generally awesome
08:55:39 <AnMaster> reply to that: "it is" or "ey is"?
08:55:51 <AnMaster> that is, should I be gender neutral or completely neutral
08:56:23 <coppro> I'd say "he" since the gender is known
08:56:34 <coppro> also, I much prefer "e" to "ey"
08:56:51 <AnMaster> coppro, I can't figure out how to pronounce "e"
08:57:06 <coppro> I like it because it is like "he" and "she"
08:57:21 <coppro> and so I can use them in conversation without people really noticing
08:57:49 <AnMaster> coppro, well I couldn't because I speak Swedish in general :P
08:57:56 <AnMaster> and on irc people still notice
08:58:33 <coppro> (also I pronounce "em" like in "get 'em"
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13:40:18 <augur> cheater99: good point about alise
13:40:24 <augur> alise is usually here on weekends
13:40:32 <augur> perhaps the bigbads discovered the iphone
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13:56:07 <cheater99> augur: i'm thinking she got canned for good
13:57:39 <augur> canned for good ey
13:57:52 <augur> noo alise's mother is pretty hardcore against that i think
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14:31:49 <AnMaster> <augur> canned for good ey <-- was that "ey" spivak or a strange variant of "yeah" or such?
14:33:37 <augur> its a faux canadianism
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14:59:37 <alise463> Dell Latitude CPt V466GT, sporting a 463MHz Pentium Pro Celeron CPU, 64 megs of RAM and ... Windows XP Service Pack 2?!
15:00:13 <Deewiant> On 64 megs? That's impressive.
15:00:23 <alise463> You have /no idea/ how slow this thing is.
15:00:38 <alise463> Oh, sure, it's working smoothly one minute, then you switch windows and suddenly it hates you.
15:00:45 <alise463> System Information? That's a high-end application, my friend.
15:01:47 <alise463> Deewiant: Did I mention I'm connected via WiFi? Yeah... this thing has a "Designed for Microsoft Windows NT / Windows 98" sticker on it, a serial port, no Ethernet port, and a PCMCIA card slot.
15:02:06 <alise463> And it was running Windows 95.
15:02:47 <alise463> Deewiant: I couldn't even get an ancient version of Knoppix to do anything in less than ten seconds.
15:03:00 <alise463> An Ubuntu LiveCD from 2005 just refused to do ... anything.
15:03:10 <alise463> Also, it beeps and refuses keys often. 2-key rollover, baby.
15:03:18 <alise463> Three keys is just too much for its tiny little brain.
15:04:38 <alise463> And, uh, what else ... oh yeah, I battled with my router for, like, ever. One of them -- the one that was configured to use WiFi -- would allow me to make 1, on a good day, connection, then cut it off and not work until I /reset all settings/.
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15:05:07 <alise463> I suppose it's likely someone was a bit worried by my absence; sorry, it's just that using a modern computer to get this working would be *cheating*.
15:05:23 <alise463> So, uh, anyone have any tips for slimming down XP without reinstalling?
15:05:42 <Deewiant> You can't slim it down to be usable on 64M, I'm pretty sure.
15:06:09 <alise463> Deewiant: And I have /free/ /memory/.
15:06:35 <alise463> WWell, okay, it is using 109 megs of the pagefile.
15:06:37 <Deewiant> Sure; it doesn't disk-cache the way Linux does.
15:06:44 <Deewiant> Or if it does, it doesn't show it in the memory usage.
15:07:33 <alise463> If I disable a lot of services -- use XPlite -- can't be so bad, can it?
15:07:48 <alise463> "Why", a decent question, butQ!
15:08:02 <Deewiant> It'll still be slow to switch windows etc, most likely.
15:09:03 <fizzie> alise463: I seem to recall you were looking for me the other day; was this for some particular reason, or just to tell me how weird I allegedly look?
15:10:02 <alise463> fizzie: The latter. Although the dream's memory is now fuzzy, I still have a pretty good mental image.
15:11:07 <alise463> fizzie: Your skin colour was -- not black, not brown, but ... dark grey, in a way, with hints of brownness/blackness. You were bald, I think. Quite bulky, but not especially fat. You were wearing sunglasses, I think, and brightish clothes: white, not particularly coloured. You said hi then said you were going to call your wife: you then talked on your phone about pizza in a high-pitched,
15:11:18 <alise463> Which is, apparently, the Finnish accent.
15:12:21 <alise463> You'd probably not look out of place in one of the Matrix sequels. Which is always a bad sign.
15:12:36 <alise463> oklopol looks sort of like Ron Weasely or however you spell it.
15:12:45 <alise463> Thought you might all want to know.
15:13:22 <alise463> Now I'm a bit disappointed I spent this entire weekend messing with this computer instead of programming.
15:13:35 <fizzie> More credible observers (i.e. people who've actually seen me) have told me I do have a weird sort of voice, but I don't think I look especially special.
15:14:18 <alise463> Hey, I have actually seen you. IN A DREAM.
15:14:36 <alise463> I presume Deewiant probably looks similar, except slimmer and he probably has whitish hair.
15:14:55 <alise463> fizzie: Admittedly this was /not/ my mental image of you, and I sort of tried to get away from you as quickly as possible.
15:15:23 <Deewiant> alise463: IIRC what fizzie looks like you're wrong on both counts
15:16:01 <Deewiant> (Reading as s/whitish/lighter/; anyway my hair is dark brown)
15:16:59 <alise463> 10:22:11 * Sgeo__ is considering taking Winforms programming
15:16:59 <alise463> 10:22:16 <Sgeo__> Will this poison my brain?
15:17:06 <alise463> Why ask? You'll take it anyway; you're just looking for reassurance.
15:17:13 <alise463> Deewiant: I'm correct on EVERY. ACCOUNT.
15:17:22 <alise463> This is what fizzie looks like.
15:17:24 <alise463> Also, whitish as in actually white.
15:19:06 <alise463> 10:30:37 <coppro> AnMaster: From a spelling you see in some fantasy works that want to feel that magick is special there
15:19:13 <alise463> or aleister crowley or however the hell you spell his name :p
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15:24:37 <alise463> here i always am on weekends -- home
15:24:46 <AnMaster> alise463, you were missing yesterday
15:24:57 <alise463> Indeed. Because I was trying to get this to work.
15:25:11 <AnMaster> alise463, even your netbook is better iirc?
15:25:25 <alise463> AnMaster: Well, this has a bigger screen, a usable keyboard and a clit mouse.
15:25:29 <AnMaster> alise463, what is wrong with your mac then?
15:25:40 <alise463> Nothing. I don't use my mac either most of the time.
15:25:46 <alise463> I broke this so I had to get it working again.
15:25:49 <alise463> I was playing with it because why not?
15:25:59 <alise463> As to why I have it, creative manipulation for the purpose of shits and giggles:
15:26:28 <alise463> [Scene: Unit.] TEACHER: Here, look at the stuff on this USB stick over the weekend [hands USB stick with windows program on, displaying work and shit]
15:26:49 <alise463> ME: But teacher, all the computers I have at home are Macs! They will not run that program. [does not mention Linux for sheer having-to-explain-it-ness]
15:26:58 <alise463> TEACHER: I have this old laptop...
15:27:02 <alise463> TEACHER: [takes it out, boots it]
15:27:08 <alise463> LAPTOP: Windows 95 -- Microsoft Internet Explorer
15:27:18 <alise463> ME: Yeah, I can get that working! [ha. ha. hahaha]
15:27:27 <alise463> TEACHER: I'm not just wasting your time with this am I? This will be useful?
15:27:32 <AnMaster> alise463, when did that happen?
15:27:59 <alise463> Then I managed to break the Windows install and that wouldn't be such a good idea what with Monday looming and all, so...
15:28:14 <alise463> That took a while; now here I am.
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15:28:55 <alise463> Hey, let's see if that USB stick actually works.
15:30:04 <alise463> 19:03:40 <Gregor> Who wrote "my other car is a cdr"
15:30:04 <alise463> 19:03:43 <Gregor> WHO GETS A BEATING
15:33:18 <fizzie> (Won't that just make the beating easier?)
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15:42:11 <oerjan> <AnMaster> coppro, well I couldn't because I speak Swedish in general :P
15:42:22 <oerjan> maybe you could use "hån" or something?
15:42:51 <oerjan> or "hän", that's the actual finnish
15:43:36 <oerjan> <cheater99> oerjan isn't here either
15:43:59 <oerjan> we were off plotting against you.
15:46:33 <oerjan> sneezing while eating is _not_ nice. in case you didn't know.
15:46:39 <alise463> 09:06:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm what is 1 in base pi of pi is 10?
15:47:02 <alise463> 11 = (1 * pi^1) + (1 * pi^0) = pi+1
15:47:11 <olsner> oerjan: did you end up with food in nose, snot in food, or both?
15:47:31 <alise463> 32 = (3 * pi^1) + (2 * pi^0) = (3*pi)+2
15:47:36 <oerjan> olsner: i managed to cover my mouth and keep most of it in.
15:47:52 <alise463> now -- what's 3.123 in base pi :D (3*pi)+(1/pi)+(1)
15:48:07 <alise463> now -- what's 3.123 in base pi :D (3*pi)+(1/pi)+(2 * (1/pi^2)) + (3 * (1/pi^3))
15:49:00 * oerjan imagines antropologists finding a tribe which _apparently_ can only count to 3 in natural numbers, but only because they use base pi
15:51:27 <alise463> oerjan: base 2pi would be quite cool
15:51:47 <oerjan> yeah then you could count to six
15:52:23 <alise463> oerjan: /although/, base pi has a rather easy operation done by appending a 0
15:53:13 <oerjan> alise463: oh and the anthropologists solve the tribe's counting problem by introducing them to biblical literalist missionaries
15:53:40 <alise463> so wait, how do we get 4 in base pi
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15:53:54 <olsner> integers do get tricky in base-pi though
15:53:55 <oerjan> alise463: 11 you heathen scum!
15:54:17 <olsner> alise463: crossed circle == symbol for circumference
15:54:32 <olsner> probably diameter though, nm :P
15:55:03 <alise463> oerjan: but with decimals can we actually do it?
15:55:22 <alise463> yeah, so what does it come out to :-)
15:58:30 <alise463> We don't have a pi digit, though.
15:58:37 <alise463> Or do you mean 10.{22}, where {} is recurring?
15:59:01 <oerjan> it cannot be recurring
15:59:44 <Deewiant> I meant 10.22 followed by something
15:59:47 <oerjan> because that would be 2*(1/pi + 1/pi^2 + ...) = 2*1/(1-1/pi) which cannot be algebraic
16:00:59 <olsner> it wouldn't be terribly surprising if it's actually impossible to represent any integer exactly
16:01:18 <oerjan> well it's pretty surely representable with an infinite expansion
16:04:34 <olsner> integers above pi then?
16:05:03 <alise463> well ... I should write a program to figure it out, shouldn't I?
16:05:06 <oerjan> those are impossible with finite representation
16:05:29 <alise463> Right, I cba to turn on the computer, therefore I shall take the other laptop -- that isn't shit -- to a more comfortable place to code.
16:06:12 <oerjan> for the same kind of transcendentality reason, any finite representation is an integer polynomial in pi
16:07:56 <oerjan> if the polynomial has a non-constant term that cannot be algebraic
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16:12:28 <olsner> and I guess this also applies for any transcendental bases? (e.g. base-e too)
16:12:34 <oerjan> say if you have pi^3 + 2 + 1/pi + 3/pi^2 = x, then multiply by pi^2 to get pi^5 + 2*pi^2 - x*pi^2 + pi + 3 = 0
16:12:55 <oerjan> if x is rational that is a contradiction.
16:13:43 <oerjan> yes it is, pi is not the root of a nontrivial polynomial in rationals
16:14:08 <alise463> ok why doesn't ubuntu recognise this
16:15:18 <oerjan> i _think_ x cannot even be algebraic but i don't see that clearly at the moment
16:15:47 <alise463> Seth Gold. G-O-L-D, Seth. Sgeo: Seth Gold. Seth "Sgeo" Gold.
16:16:15 <oerjan> oh hm you prove that by inserting pi^3 + 2 + 1/pi + 3/pi^2 into any polynomial x would be root of, i think
16:18:38 * pikhq would like his nose back
16:19:10 <pikhq> oerjan: It's all congested.
16:19:56 <oerjan> pikhq: it's probably BP's fault
16:20:42 <pikhq> alise463: MAGIIIIC!
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16:21:45 <alise463> but it modern ubuntu modern computer why no
16:22:30 <oerjan> <fizzie> (Won't that just make the beating easier?)
16:22:43 <oerjan> this is _naggum_ we're talking about. i wouldn't bet on it.
16:23:06 <pikhq> alise463: The only thing worse than WiFi on Linux is WiFi on Windows.
16:24:05 <alise463> pikhq: HOW CAN I MAKE THIS /WORK/
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16:30:29 <alise463> pikhq: explain how the hell /ethernet/ won't work on linux
16:31:31 <pikhq> alise463: AAAAAGH AAAAAGH AAAAGH
16:31:43 <pikhq> PRAY UNTO WHATEVER GODS YE HAVE
16:31:57 <pikhq> IF YOU DONT HAVE A GOD GET ONE
16:32:01 <alise463> pikhq: it /works with windows 7/
16:32:12 <alise463> it is a /mainstream, *sane* laptop/
16:32:17 <pikhq> Fuckfuckfuckwhatfuckfuck?
16:32:59 <alise463> pikhq: It is a toshiba satellite FIX IT
16:34:05 <pikhq> alise463: APTGET INSTALL SMART
16:34:16 <alise463> pikhq: THERE NO "SMART" PACKAGE!!!
16:34:20 <alise463> AND IT SHOULD BE APT-GET NOT APTGET AAAAAA
16:34:37 <alise463> THE WHAT IS THE WHAT OF THE FUCK , I WANT TO PROGRAM -- - NOT USE . ; THIS - WINDOWS TO PROGRAM - IS NO
16:35:05 <alise463> make it work forever now thansk
16:35:35 <pikhq> coLinux can run Ubuntu just fine.
16:35:47 <pikhq> It's nothing more than a Linux kernel running in Windows kernelspace.
16:35:54 <pikhq> Thereby using Windows as the world's largest Linux driver.
16:39:31 <pikhq> ... Wait, seriously?
16:39:38 <pikhq> You're having trouble with one of those?
16:40:00 <alise463> make it work :(( I'd google but can't, "realtek 8172 ubuntu wifi"?? plz
16:40:57 <AnMaster> wait is that a wifi? I could have sworn I had a PCI ethernet card with a chipset with a name like that ages ago
16:41:00 <alise463> it doesn't even have the .,... urgh
16:41:25 <AnMaster> alise463, to me it sounds like ethernet.
16:41:26 <alise463> why can't ubuntu handle, like, every ethernet ever.
16:41:31 <alise463> i don't even care just jesus christ.
16:41:43 <AnMaster> google seems to indicate it is wifi
16:41:57 <AnMaster> alise463, stop whining. It will not do help in any way whatsoever
16:42:13 <alise463> also, it irritates you, which is a function in and of itself.
16:42:30 <alise463> pikhq: Hey, write an OS which does Ethernet. Thanks.
16:42:32 <AnMaster> alise463, actually google indicates it is wifi. I think the ethernet I remember must have had a similar number
16:42:55 <alise463> Ubuntu indicates there is no eth0! What!
16:43:14 <alise463> pikhq: 'tis listed. No driver, listed.
16:43:29 <AnMaster> alise463, okay but realtek 8172 is wifi as far as I can tell from googling
16:44:12 <alise463> "as of karmic [...] driver is missing"
16:44:17 <alise463> "realtek provides linux native driver"
16:44:33 <pikhq> Permission granted to stab people, alise.
16:45:49 <alise463> ok so I have to install build-essential linux-headers-`uname -r`; extract tar to /usr/src or wherever. cp -rf firmware/RTL8192SE /lib/firmware. sudo make. then
16:46:07 <alise463> cp HAL/rt18192/r8192se_pci.ko /lib/modules/*/kernel/drivers/net/
16:47:15 <alise463> pikhq: what is it with drivers
16:47:22 <alise463> what happened to standards, why does wifi need drivers
16:48:15 <pikhq> alise463: Hardware manufacturers went "Fuck sanity, each device needs its own hardware interface. Oh, and we'll only offer Windows drivers. Because fuck you."
16:48:25 <pikhq> They have a fondness for pissing off their customers, if you'll note.
16:49:03 <alise463> well realtek offer linux drivers -- thx -- but why ubuntu
16:50:38 <pikhq> Ubuntu clearly flails.
16:50:44 <pikhq> They fail so hard they flail.
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16:54:24 <alise463> pikhq: oki nao has iwconfig worky - but how connect proply?
16:54:39 <pikhq> alise463: Do you have a bat handy?
16:56:20 <pikhq> Apply directly to the forehead!
16:56:22 <alise463> CONNECTG SIDOJFOIDSFJIOSDJFOISDF
16:57:11 <pikhq> GOD DAMNIT SINUSES WHY MUST YOU BE ENTIRELY FILLED
16:57:18 <pikhq> I JUST WANT TO BREATH
16:57:42 <pikhq> alise463: Fuck you I wanna breath.
16:58:13 <alise463> ULTIMATE CAPACITTTTTTTTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
17:00:52 <alise463> pikhq: what is a command to scan for wifi?
17:03:03 <alise463> okay, seriously, why would i have a good interface with a driver ... that won't connect?
17:03:50 <pikhq> alise463: They lovelovelove their automagic shit there in Ubuntu.
17:04:09 <pikhq> I presume that NetworkManager is arguing with you.
17:04:23 <alise463> pikhq: no, it tries to connect
17:04:35 <alise463> so how can i manu-connecto-supremo
17:05:23 <pikhq> You need a pint of chicken blood, a golden pentragram inlayed in the floor, and a firm disregard for the future status of your soul.
17:05:32 <alise463> but but but but butbubtubtubububtubububutbubububtubububt
17:06:17 <alise463> Oh, I see! Maybe wrong driver drive driver wrong drive.
17:07:22 <alise463> O FORTUNA VELUT LUNA STATO VARIABILIS
17:08:52 <augur> alise463, i was totally scurred
17:09:06 <cheater99> <augur> cheater99: good point about alise
17:09:06 <cheater99> <augur> alise is usually here on weekends
17:09:06 <cheater99> <augur> perhaps the bigbads discovered the iphone
17:09:22 <pikhq> PIE IESV DOMINE, DONA EIS REQVIEM.
17:10:32 <pikhq> augur: GRACIOUS LORD JESUS, GRANT US REPRIEVE
17:10:59 <pikhq> alise463: Try chants.
17:11:16 <pikhq> I can make some vaguely Zen ones for if you'd like.
17:12:13 <pikhq> 無理だ、このものが。何故無理何故無理何故無理〜。
17:12:30 <pikhq> alise463: What, 無は無じゃ無い?
17:13:05 <pikhq> (Muri da, kono mono ga. Naze muri naze muri naze muri~.)
17:13:48 <alise463> no please just tell me how to make this work :|
17:14:55 <pikhq> Repeat after me: There is no kernel but Linux, and Tux is its mascot.
17:15:06 <pikhq> (seriously, I got nothing.)
17:15:13 <alise463> i would just program on windows but ... no
17:18:26 <alise463> pikhq: a 32-bit driver won't work on 64-bit kernel right?
17:19:20 <pikhq> alise463: Not even slightly.
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17:27:26 <alise463> pikhq: okay seriously i need advice...
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17:35:39 <pikhq> The secret is to be running on 4 hours of sleep.
17:35:54 <alise463> now is reinstalled and wifi won't ... enabl e
17:38:37 <alise463> pikhq: i will pay you to FIX EVERYTHING
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17:40:39 <alise463> pikhq: ok, i'm just reinstalling ubuntu
17:40:58 <alise463> even though 10.04 sucks d'y b'ls
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17:44:53 <Gracenotes> I just tried to upgrade Ubuntu from chroot on a livecd because 9.10 wouldn't boot up
17:45:05 <alise463> arkyval uf matireals is veri important.
17:45:16 <Gracenotes> now I no longer have a non-functional 9.10, I have a non-functional 10.04
17:46:05 <alise463> it's not the slickness i dislike
17:46:07 <Gracenotes> and then you get used to it and notice the bloat
17:46:20 <alise463> Gregor: and how well exactly would sidux work with this wifi card out of the box?
17:46:34 <Gregor> sidux is for people who like to manually configure shit :P
17:46:52 <Gregor> (No, that's slackware, but still the point stands)
17:47:02 <Gregor> What card is it? Is it a broadcom?
17:47:26 <Gregor> Oh. Then you're fucked.
17:47:33 <alise463> and ubuntu 9.10 didn'[t work with it
17:53:10 <alise463> oh god ill have to unetbootin it
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17:54:27 <Gregor> Why is unetbootin called unetbootin.
17:54:32 <Gregor> It seems like a completely wrong name
17:54:39 <alise463> universal netboot installer or something
17:55:55 <Gregor> But it's NOT a netboot installer.
17:56:16 <Gregor> It makes USB drives, not PXE installers.
18:02:45 <alise463> How do you lazily unmount something?
18:05:57 <pikhq> Marks the mount for unmounting, will actually do it when there's no open files.
18:06:14 <alise463> pikhq: Specifically, I want every process to see it as unmounted, but it not to actually be unmounted since I need that shit.
18:06:23 <alise463> (Not unmounting until all the files are closed would work.)
18:06:35 <pikhq> mount -f does just that.
18:06:40 <pikhq> It's removed from /etc/mtab.
18:06:40 <alise463> This is because the Ubuntu installer is trying to unmount the partition it's on.
18:07:54 <AnMaster> looks like thunderstorm approaching and I will be away from home, so shutting down, cya.
18:08:28 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:08:30 * alise463 just removes it from /etc/mtab.
18:09:12 <pikhq> alise463: Which is probably a symlink to /proc/mounts
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18:13:50 <pikhq> alise463: Ah. That.
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18:17:17 <Gregor> And it basically never works.
18:17:29 <pikhq> Gregor: Thinko kays?
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18:23:50 <alise_> Okay, who knows how to work the grub rescue console?
18:28:41 <alise_> That is seriously not helpful. I just want to boot one partition.
18:29:39 <Gregor> Use http://gujin.sourceforge.net/
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18:30:29 <alise_> Yeah, open links on this machine. Real smart idea.
18:30:39 <alise_> Better idea, someone please tell me the command to boot from some partition.
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18:39:30 <Gregor> I already helped. You were all "no I donwanna download that I'm ascared" so feh to you.
18:40:12 <Gregor> Stick it on a USB key, floppy, CD-rom, or anything else your computer can boot from.
18:40:22 <Gregor> Then watch it detect all your partitions and kernels.
18:40:33 <alise463> No usb stick no cdrom orfloppy dribe
18:40:42 <Gregor> wtf kind of computer is this?
18:40:46 <Gregor> Does it have a punchcard slot?
18:41:15 <alise463> A modern lightweight laptop aND A person w/o a usb drive
18:41:34 <Gregor> Ah, the lack of USB disk is a personal failing :P
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18:42:15 <alise463> Gregor: can you just google 'grub recovery console' plz?
18:42:28 <Gregor> ... you're on IRC and you can't google?
18:43:23 <Gregor> Sounds fully google-capable to me.
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18:45:45 <fizzie> You want to load a kernel image, or just chainload a bootsector from some partiton?
18:46:58 <fizzie> It's something like "set root=(hd0,1)" followed by "chainloader +1" followed by "boot" to make it go.
18:47:06 <Zuu> rootnoverify (hd0,0)
18:47:16 <Zuu> chainloader +1
18:47:19 <alise463> but this is the recovery console
18:49:33 <fizzie> Hmm. Grub's command-line shell should use the same commands; I'm not sure (and can't immediately see from googling) about any special recovery things.
18:51:07 <fizzie> Ohhh, that's a grub2 thing, it looks like.
18:51:20 <alise463> Good to know. How do I work it?
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18:52:55 <fizzie> Last time I had a broken thing it was pre-2 ages.
18:54:59 <alise463> "ls" lists the (hd#,#) things.
18:55:16 <Deewiant> The following commands can be used in the grub rescue mode: [list which contains "chainloader"]
18:55:20 <fizzie> The web claims the "chainloader" command should be available in rescue mo...
18:55:35 <alise463> It also complained about some missing file when starting the console.
18:55:41 <alise463> So is there some ... super-fundamental command list?
18:56:03 <alise463> "error: file not found \n grub rescue>"
18:56:15 <Deewiant> boot cat chainloader dump exit kfreebsd kfreebsd_loadenv kfreebsd_module help initrd insmod linux lsmod multiboot normal rmmod set unset
18:56:24 <fizzie> It's oh-so-modular nowadays, maybe you need to find the chainloader from somewhere.
18:56:37 <Deewiant> If additional commands are needed, the user might try loading the normal GRUB 2 module with insmod normal. If successful, help and additional commands will be available.
18:56:58 <alise463> insmod is available, "insmod normal" says file not found.
18:57:03 <fizzie> You seem to need to insmod to get the linux command, for example.
18:57:05 <alise463> Also, I see no ls in Deewiant's list...
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18:57:34 <Deewiant> alise463: I think that's just an omission, there are examples using it.
18:57:59 <alise463> Okay. So ... any other commands? "ls" and a useless "insmod" are all I have.
18:58:24 <alise463> BTW, /boot/grub no longer exists so I can't load anything.
18:58:28 <Deewiant> File Not Found: This error is the result of a GRUB 2 installation to /boot but a Master Boot Record ( MBR ) which still contains Grub legacy.
18:58:32 <Deewiant> To recover from this error, GRUB 2 must be reinstalled. Go to Reinstalling from the LiveCD for instructions.
18:58:51 <alise463> Deewiant: Good, good ... I have no media to boot from.
18:59:04 <alise463> Is my only resolve to... buy a USB stick?
18:59:20 <fizzie> Without the grub modules to insmod, you might indeed be suckered.
19:01:39 <Gregor> I for one would like to be the first to say welcome to the year 2010.
19:01:49 <Gregor> Now go buy a USB stick ;P
19:02:13 <Gregor> (Note: I'm not sure how you're going to get gujin onto it if your only system is so much suckage)
19:02:22 <Gregor> alise463: If you were in the US, that would be a nonissue.
19:02:25 <alise463> The other system is not suckage, this is my suckage system.
19:02:37 <alise463> The other system is a very good, now-bricked, laptop.
19:02:44 <Gregor> alise463: I meant downloading gujin and putting it on the USB stick.
19:03:09 * Gregor shoves one through his monitor.
19:03:18 <alise463> Well ... I have one next to me. I could back it up to the HD.
19:03:19 <Gregor> I've got three in my pocket, plus an SD reader that would do the trick too :P
19:03:33 <alise463> But I'll have to disconnect to insert it.
19:04:48 <Gregor> OK, come on, that computer is not from 1975.
19:05:39 <Gregor> And you have ... a USB ethernet adapter connected to it now?
19:05:39 <alise463> Gregor: So how do I install gujin to a USB drive on windows.
19:05:49 <alise463> I have a USB wifi adaptor connected to it.
19:05:57 <alise463> It does have a PCMCIA 56k+Fax modem, though.
19:06:20 <alise463> So, gujin on Windows to USB. How.
19:06:37 <alise463> It wants me to download dd for windows.
19:06:49 <Gregor> Oh, NOW you can browse that page :P
19:07:12 <alise463> Gregor: Oh, and it doesn't haev a pre-built image for <1Gb USB sticks!
19:07:13 <Gregor> (Note: I've never done it from Windows :P )
19:07:22 <alise463> So I'm COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY FUCKED.
19:07:24 <Gregor> Well then you're punked.
19:07:56 <Gregor> Idonno, you could try grubbing around with gparted live or something.]
19:08:29 <Gregor> Unzip to drive, run .bat file to make bootable.
19:08:44 <alise463> Can't download that at these speeds.
19:08:55 <alise463> This is internet over USB 1.0.
19:09:28 <Gregor> On a scale from one to ten, you're screwed.
19:09:44 <alise463> Okay, can I just get a GRUB 1 console on a livecd?
19:13:21 <alise463> Okay, seriously. Is there not just a Windows --- appli-- thingy usb writing .. bloody hell.
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19:40:12 <Gregor> Freenode's hostname blocking would be 100% more effective if it didn't do that :P
19:41:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:41:53 <Gregor> Also I wonder what would happen if we had blocked, say, *!*@unaffiliated/*
19:41:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:42:04 <Gregor> Since it's not a real quit/join
19:43:58 <Ilari> Well +b also silences user if they are on channel for some reason.
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19:51:05 <zzo38> Can you make any 'patamagic (or 'patapsionics) feats in D&D?
19:51:23 <zzo38> There is metamagic so now we have to make the other one, which is 'patamagic
20:14:28 <Sgeo> Bleh, someone pinged me
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21:25:15 <Ilari> Hmm... 1377.75s of fullHD video taking 393MB...
21:31:33 <Gregor> "HD" refers only to resolution, not quality :P
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21:38:33 <Ilari> Well, at least it isn't overcompressed. :-)
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21:52:28 <CakeProphet> I think I just got some new ideas to complete the design
21:52:56 <CakeProphet> involving message-controlled gates, and making the bugs finite state machines rather than only byte values.
21:54:13 <CakeProphet> message-controlled gates is essentially a form of blocking. But I need to figure out other ways to coordinate behavior
22:09:10 <CakeProphet> zzo38: the figuring out part, is the obstacle to that.
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22:45:12 <calamari> okay.. rewad my logs.. CakeProphet was the one who wanted to write an OS
22:45:59 <calamari> CakeProphet: is that something you are still interested in?
22:50:38 <calamari> what programming languages do you know?
22:51:02 <calamari> or would you prefer to program the os in an esoteric one?
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22:52:06 <zzo38> If you want to write an OS perhaps use 888ASM and/or C
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22:53:16 <calamari> C is boring, everyone uses that for OSes
22:53:30 <zzo38> Then use 888ASM or machine codes
22:53:59 <calamari> or an esolang compiled to an asm
22:54:36 <zzo38> Yes, if you want to write it using esolang, you can try that too
22:55:07 <zzo38> Perhaps write it in INTERCAL or whatever
22:56:32 <calamari> I suppose it would'nt have to be limited to a signle esolang
22:56:51 <calamari> just whichever we wrote compilers for
22:57:03 <relet> malbolgeOS anyone?
22:57:32 <calamari> okay so relet has volunteered to write the filesystem layer in Malbolge
22:58:00 <zzo38> Yes I suppose you can use multiple esolangs. You can even mix esoteric programming with normal programming, mix compilers with interpreters, mix low-level with high-level, and mix machine-codes with not-machine-codes.
22:58:09 <relet> I'll see to it that the file access methods will be worthy of the language. ;)
22:58:44 <zzo38> You can't write subroutines in Malbolge...?
22:59:22 <zzo38> You would have to make it a entirely separate program that is then linked to the machine I/O and to the other program
23:00:08 <calamari> the trick would be a VM that did not require special I/O calls to operate
23:00:32 <calamari> I mean like ports, interrupt calls, etc
23:00:55 <CakeProphet> calamari: C, Python, and Haskell are the ones I am most fluent with
23:01:23 <calamari> the lowest common denominator is usually some kind of text i/o
23:01:42 <CakeProphet> I think C will be somewhat essential if we intend to use other languages
23:01:59 <CakeProphet> making Haskell standalone would require some C coding
23:02:12 <zzo38> OK. But then write the VM using something else, such as C or assembler codes
23:02:39 <zzo38> When I write operating system, from nothing, I use machine-codes and 888ASM and Forth.
23:02:58 <calamari> essentally the VM would be a kind of translating micro kernel
23:03:28 <calamari> and yeah not going to code that in python :)
23:03:40 <calamari> although you could code it in python for the fake version
23:04:48 <CakeProphet> calamari: so you want to put everything in a VM? I'm down with that.
23:04:50 <zzo38> I don't know about system calls in Python (not even text I/O), because I have never used any
23:05:15 <calamari> CakeProphet: yeah I talked you out of it before, but it is the way to go if we want to include esolangs
23:05:51 <calamari> zzo38: wouldn't have to worry about system calls.. since python would be running on top of windows or linux or whatever
23:05:55 <CakeProphet> alright. so what kind of VM? And what do you want to program it in?
23:06:18 <zzo38> Actually with some esolangs it is not necessary, such as some variants of INTERCAL can be written to allow direct system call under no other operating system
23:06:35 <calamari> zzo38: true.. some esolangs are more powerful than others
23:07:22 <zzo38> calamari: Even if running on top of Windows or Linux, you still need the call to get input from the keyboard, display things on the screen, store things in a file (even if it is only one file), and so on
23:07:31 <calamari> CakeProphet: I would be good with programming the VM in Python and then porting it to a combo of C and ASM for the real hardware version
23:08:16 <calamari> zzo38: surely you've done all those things in python before..
23:08:27 <zzo38> calamari: No I have not done any of those things in Python before
23:08:43 <CakeProphet> calamari: eh, I'd prefer something other than Python.
23:08:48 <zzo38> I have only written some card games in Python
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23:09:04 <calamari> CakeProphet: I don't know Haskell
23:09:09 <zzo38> And I don't plan to write anything else in Python since there are other program languages I can use, such as C
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23:09:28 <calamari> zzo38: I like python.. it owns
23:09:32 <Gregor> Now if only you can working get it fucking.
23:09:40 <karmicalise> calamari: It's a good language except for the fact that it sucks.
23:09:44 <CakeProphet> calamari: why not just start with C for the VM? No point implementing it twice.
23:09:46 <zzo38> calamari: I have nothing against you to like Python, if you want to use it that is OK
23:10:03 <CakeProphet> calamari: you could do the assembly/C, and I could do C.
23:10:05 <zzo38> I just don't use Python for anything else other than writing some solitaire card games.
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23:10:25 <calamari> CakeProphet: thefake vm would be relatively simple
23:10:30 <zzo38> And later I might prefer to write a solitaire game engine in Forth instead, so that some solitaire card games can be implemented in Forth
23:10:35 <karmicalise> Gregor: It was so awesome though, I got your bootloader thing onto the usb stick which I had to keep (backed it up to the shitty laptop), but it didn't work so it finally worked with one that included super grub disk
23:10:41 <karmicalise> i used the grub command line to boot into windows
23:10:57 <karmicalise> mount -l to get the mount options for /cdrom#
23:11:11 <calamari> CakeProphet: the real vm would probably use bios calls at first although we could get fancier later
23:11:13 <karmicalise> then right after the install started, remounted /cdrom
23:11:34 <karmicalise> (it needs /cdrom later it seems, for some reason; -r -f -l gotta fuck shit up -- but if it's mounted at the start it'll break by trying to unmount it)
23:11:43 <karmicalise> Gregor: and then ubuntu installed an actual bootloader and now everything is perfect.
23:12:04 <karmicalise> Put me in front of any computer and I will BREAK IT AND THEN FIX IT AGAIN.
23:12:20 <zzo38> So that I can write: GAME: G.FREECELL 4 FREECELLS 8 ROWSTACKS ['] S.FREECELL *ROWSTACK NO-WORRYING-BACK INIT> DEAL-ALL-CARDS ;
23:12:36 <CakeProphet> calamari: so you're saying it would be best to write a quick VM so we can go ahead and start other components of the OS and then go back and make it more efficient?
23:12:49 <CakeProphet> I'd prefer Haskell for that. You should learn it. :)
23:13:10 <CakeProphet> besides, it /is/ possible to make Haskell standalone if you implement all of the libraries that it links to.
23:13:21 <zzo38> Worrying back is usually disallowed in Freecell. But worrying back is allowed in some other games. Worrying back is more common in Klondike
23:13:53 <calamari> I suck at functional langs.. so you'd pretty much be on your own
23:13:55 <zzo38> Taking cards back from the foundations after they have already been played
23:14:18 <karmicalise> God damn I upgraded the shittiest laptop ever to Windows XP and then managed to fix this bricked system with barely anything.
23:14:49 <karmicalise> calamari: Yeah, but I needed something that could, you know... do USB.
23:15:00 <karmicalise> 463 MHz Pentium II Celeron, 64 MiB of RAM.
23:15:12 <CakeProphet> calamari: ah... so? What language would you prefer to use? I really don't prefer Python, I'm simply familiar with it. I'd rather learn a new language than use Python.
23:15:30 <calamari> karmicalise: so you think windows is the only os that can use USB? interesting
23:15:35 <zzo38> Is there a USB driver for FreeDOS? But not many programs are written in DOS these days
23:15:49 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Then learn Forth?
23:15:57 <karmicalise> calamari: It needed to run a Windows program.
23:16:03 <zzo38> I think it is worth it to learn Forth even if later you decide you don't like it and don't want it anymore.
23:16:22 <zzo38> I sometimes use Forth for some of my own things.
23:16:42 <CakeProphet> calamari: what do you want to use though? Python? Nothing else for the first version?
23:16:55 <zzo38> I have gforth, but I have also written additional Forth interpreters for other uses such as TAVSYS and MegaZeux.
23:16:57 <calamari> well I thik we're getting ahead of ourselves
23:17:01 <karmicalise> 07:26:28 <alise463> [Scene: Unit.] TEACHER: Here, look at the stuff on this USB stick over the weekend [hands USB stick with windows program on, displaying work and shit] 07:26:49 <alise463> ME: But teacher, all the computers I have at home are Macs! They will not run that program. [does not mention Linux for sheer having-to-explain-it-ness] 07:26:51 <alise463> TEACHER: Oh. Um. 07:26:58 <alise463> TEACHER: I have this old lapto
23:17:08 <calamari> first we need to define the VM asm
23:17:19 <karmicalise> 07:27:08 <alise463> LAPTOP: Windows 95 -- Microsoft Internet Explorer 07:27:10 <AnMaster> hah 07:27:18 <alise463> ME: Yeah, I can get that working! [ha. ha. hahaha] 07:27:26 <Deewiant> :-D 07:27:27 <alise463> TEACHER: I'm not just wasting your time with this am I? This will be useful? 07:27:30 <alise463> ME: Absolutely.
23:17:25 <karmicalise> If you don't know what the unit is, that will make no sense.
23:17:31 <karmicalise> So I'll assume you do, though you probably don't.
23:17:58 <zzo38> I like a kind of ASM that has both stack and registers
23:18:21 <zzo38> Maybe even two stacks
23:19:05 <CakeProphet> I could probably write a full VM interpreter in Haskell actually...
23:19:29 <CakeProphet> wouldn't be very hard at all. Would be more efficient than Python by far.
23:19:42 <zzo38> Forth systems have at least two stacks. Gforth has four (or is it five? I don't know), and TAVSYS has three (the third is the object stack).
23:19:55 <karmicalise> CakeProphet: It will be slower without judicious use of either strictness annotations or reasoning based on an understanding of Haskell's execution semantics.
23:20:41 <CakeProphet> karmicalise: the latter is what I will use. :)
23:20:48 <karmicalise> CakeProphet: Then I hope you have such an understanding.
23:20:56 <karmicalise> Well, pikhq, you glorious bastard: I intend to beat the shit out of your coreutils!
23:21:02 <CakeProphet> Haskell is going to be faster than Python... in almost every situation.
23:21:16 <CakeProphet> judicious use of strictness annotations would be if you are trying to rival C
23:21:59 <zzo38> Surely using ASM and/or machine-codes is more faster (but only if you understand what you are doing!!)
23:22:18 <CakeProphet> the question wasn't which is faster, merely what language we wanted to use.
23:22:36 <CakeProphet> Haskell just /happens/ to be faster than Python. We could write the first VM interpreter in either.
23:22:55 <karmicalise> Haskell is a lot more pathological than Python though; it's often hard to predict performance.
23:23:37 <zzo38> I suppose you use Haskell if you want the VM to be mathematically correct?
23:24:44 <zzo38> Yes, "provable" is what it is, I think
23:24:53 <CakeProphet> karmicalise: I'm not sure laziness will be a problem. There are strict versions of many data structures / monads that gain performance benefits from being strictly evaluated.
23:24:56 <karmicalise> zzo38: Haskell doesn't make things much easier to prove with.
23:25:07 <zzo38> I didn't mean "easier to prove"!
23:25:34 <zzo38> I just mean provable. Just being provable doesn't mean it is easy to prove (or any easier than anything else)
23:26:05 <CakeProphet> karmicalise: I prefer not to prematurely optimize, especially when the first interpreter isn't intended to be the standalone.
23:26:18 <Gregor> IIRC Haskell has no formal semantics.
23:28:25 <karmicalise> Gregor: Obviously it /has/ them, but I don't know that anyone's laid them out.
23:28:26 <CakeProphet> calamari: alright. So here's what I propose. We/you brainstorm a VM design, and then we write it up in whatever language (I'd prefer Haskell as it's what I'm currently working with, but I'm up for anything). Once we finish the first VM we can start playing around with it and changing the design before we build the low-level interpreter.
23:28:33 <zzo38> Do you like how Enhanced CWEB prints the line numbers?
23:28:48 <Gregor> karmicalise: ... that statement makes no sense.
23:29:06 <CakeProphet> calamari: admittedly, with Haskell, performance is harder to measure. But it can be done.
23:29:38 <calamari> I'm not really worried about performance
23:29:55 <zzo38> karmicalise: I think Haskell has at least enough formal semantics to be provable, but maybe not more than that
23:30:35 <zzo38> Otherwise the program would not run
23:30:53 <Gregor> "Formal semantics" != "semantics"
23:30:56 <calamari> CakeProphet: the only performance I'm worried about is actually getting code written.. if I'm trying to learn a new lang, that isn't going to help :)
23:31:02 <Gregor> "Formal semantics" = "semantics which have been formalized"
23:31:11 <CakeProphet> lazy evaluation creates pathological memory consumption more so than computation time.
23:32:12 <karmicalise> Haskell obviously /has/ a formal definition of its semantics. It's just as of yet unpublished.
23:32:54 <Gregor> That's not necessarily true. Subtle differences in the different implementations of Haskell could negate that (depend on whether such subtle differences exist).
23:32:57 <karmicalise> It's defined inside Haskell, which is cheating.
23:33:03 <Gregor> Plus, it's an awfully philosophical statement :P
23:33:10 <karmicalise> Gregor: Only because you haven't specified which definition of "Haskell" you're using.
23:33:17 <karmicalise> If you specify it exactly enough, all implementations are equivalent.
23:33:34 <CakeProphet> calamari: if you're like me, learning new languages isn't too hard. But what langage do you prefer?
23:34:12 <CakeProphet> calamari: if you decide on a language you'd like to use, I'll work with it.
23:34:38 <karmicalise> Wow, writing truly elegant C is ... difficult.
23:34:44 <calamari> CakeProphet: I suppose I misspoke.. I can learn new langs.. but will I actually be productive in it?
23:35:29 <calamari> CakeProphet: and hat's kinda hard to predict :)
23:35:34 <CakeProphet> calamari: ah. yes. I suppose. It did take me a while to become productive in Haskell. Mostly the theoretical obstacles, but it turns out you can just ignore those and just call the relevant functions. :)
23:36:09 <karmicalise> Mumble embodies everything wrong with Haskell mumble
23:36:27 <calamari> okay so 32-bit registers and 32-bit pointers, to make life easier?
23:36:33 <CakeProphet> ha. "everything wrong with Haskell". that's a large statement.
23:36:49 <Zuu> its a bit better
23:37:07 <CakeProphet> calamari: NO MEAN 64-BIT IS THE NEW AGE THIS IS A ENTERPRISE OS.
23:37:38 <Zuu> do both, along side each other
23:37:57 <calamari> well I was going to suggest 16 bit :P
23:38:17 <Zuu> i've always be fond of 17½ bit
23:38:31 <karmicalise> Q: if(argc <= 1 || strcmp(argv[1], "-n")) -- confusing condition?
23:38:55 <zzo38> 888ASM is good for 16-bit progrma on x86, but there are currently some things missing it is not as good for 32-bit and no good at all for 64-bits.
23:39:12 <zzo38> But maybe make a sqrt(-4pi) bits operating system
23:39:39 <calamari> thankyou guys for the entertaining peanut gallery
23:39:52 <CakeProphet> karmicalise: no. not confusing. well, maybe a little.
23:40:54 <CakeProphet> strcmp occasionally throws me off because of !
23:40:58 <zzo38> If strcmp without ! is confusing, then you should make it so that it does special optimizations with bool type and then define the preprocessor macro
23:41:05 <CakeProphet> but that's strcmp in general, not that condition.
23:41:28 <karmicalise> well exactly, people read "strcmp foo bar" and think foo==bar
23:42:24 <zzo38> Then write a preprocessor macro to help (if it does special optimiziations with bool), or make it clearly by writing !=0 after
23:43:16 <zzo38> But that won't work if it is negative
23:43:32 <zzo38> C is not Game Maker!
23:44:04 <calamari> CakeProphet: sorry, been working on the asm
23:44:05 <zzo38> The plan is plan nine-and-three-quarters
23:44:41 <Zuu> karmicalise: it compares the two strings for lexical ordering
23:45:44 <zzo38> After I make the Enhanced CWEB meta-macro language, then perhaps we can see whether or not it can be written something like that to fix that
23:45:55 <zzo38> If you don't want that, just use !! instead
23:46:05 <zzo38> And hope the optimizer works
23:46:13 <CakeProphet> !haskell [1..] >>= swap replicateM ['a'..'z']
23:46:39 <CakeProphet> parse error: possibly incorrect indentation
23:46:44 <zzo38> It is being used in a boolean context so even if it doesn't use bool type, it should be OK for optimizer might be able to optimize if you put !! at front
23:47:02 <zzo38> So, you can write !!strcmp
23:47:08 <CakeProphet> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ [1..] >>= swap replicateM ['a'..'z']
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23:47:28 <CakeProphet> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ [1..] >>= flip replicateM ['a'..'z']
23:47:57 <CakeProphet> ...I now realize this is probably a very computational intense operation.
23:47:57 <calamari> CakeProphet: well, here's the plan as I see it 1) devise the asm 2) write an assembler for it 3) test it in a basic vm 4) write a compiler for it from some esolang 5) try that out 6) based on our experiences with 1-5, decide on what the vm will look like 7) I hope get get that far
23:48:29 <zzo38> Maybe I should make Enhanced CWEB treat !! as a single operator and print it in a special way (in case you don't want it printed in this special, you can put a space ! ! instead)
23:49:05 <calamari> CakeProphet: the machine code based on the asm, my bad
23:49:33 <zzo38> I can see which mathematical symbol in Plain TeX I can use for that purpose
23:49:43 <CakeProphet> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ [1..] >>= flip replicateM "abc"
23:50:07 <karmicalise> Er, wait, how does one obtain the error whose presence ferror detects?
23:50:19 <calamari> CakeProphet: what do you think? does that sound like a good starting plan?
23:50:50 <CakeProphet> calamari: I think. for some reason your wording confused me. I thought we were just making a VM? Typically I refer to "the VM" as including the language that it runs off of.
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23:51:19 <zzo38> But for the strcmp, you might instead write @d streq !strcmp (if you are using plain C you can write #define instead of @d)
23:51:26 <ais523> karmicalise: should I interpret your nick as "not lucid", or some other way?
23:51:31 <zzo38> karmicalise: Which? Of what are you asking?
23:51:45 <karmicalise> ais523: i'll ask you, then: how does one obtain the error whose presence ferror() detects? The functions don't set errno, apparently.
23:51:51 <zzo38> karmicalise: I don't know yet I have to figure out
23:51:58 <calamari> CakeProphet: well the vm is going to have to run some kind of machine code.. so we can either reuse an existing one or invent our own.. which would you prefer?
23:52:08 <ais523> karmicalise: 10.04 is nicknamed "lucid lynx"
23:52:14 <ais523> you can see why I'm confused
23:52:15 -!- karmicalise has changed nick to lucidalise.
23:52:39 <zzo38> If you have a suggestion which symbol I can consider it.
23:52:39 <ais523> lucidalise: there's a ferror and feof flag in the FILE structure, in most implementations
23:52:46 <calamari> CakeProphet: I'm open to either, but I'd prefer something rather simplistic
23:53:03 <CakeProphet> calamari: ah okay. So you use "machine code" to refer to the VMs language, while the VM is the machine itself. That makes sense. Hmmm... I'd rather write a custom VM. I don't know much about existing VMs, but Erlang's BEAM is good. Parrot is neat but I think more suited to dynamically typed languages.
23:53:10 <ais523> if you try to read from a file and something goes wrong, then the ferror flag gets set#
23:53:23 <ais523> likewise, if you try to read but it's at EOF, it returns EOF and the feof flag gets set
23:53:40 <ais523> I can't remember offhand what causes the flags to be reset, though
23:54:09 -!- Gregor has changed nick to siduxgor.
23:54:15 <siduxgor> Sidux doesn't have stupid nicknames.
23:54:18 <CakeProphet> calamari: I believe BEAM has the nice property of being easy to run standalone.
23:54:20 <siduxgor> Because sidux is a true rolling release.
23:54:25 <CakeProphet> but it's poorly documented from what I remember.
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23:55:08 <calamari> siduxgor: why aren't you running hurd?
23:55:12 <oerjan> !haskell mapM_ print [1..]
23:55:17 <lucidalise> GNU: It's like the holocaust, only worse!
23:55:18 <siduxgor> calamari: Because Hurd sucks X-P
23:55:22 <EgoBot> ["aaa","aab","aac","aba","abb","abc","aca","acb","acc","baa","bab","bac","bba","bbb","bbc","bca","bcb","bcc","caa","cab","cac","cba","cbb","cbc","cca","ccb","ccc"]
23:55:28 <lucidalise> GNU: It's like the Armenian genocide, only worse!
23:55:36 <lucidalise> GNU: It's like Bush's war crimes, only worse!
23:55:40 <oerjan> CakeProphet: EgoBot does _not_ handle infinite output with no newlines
23:55:51 <siduxgor> EgoBot does not handle infinite output.
23:55:53 <lucidalise> GNU: It's like the growing damage caused by globalised neoliberal capitalism, only worse!
23:56:32 <oerjan> siduxgor: my mapM_ print [1..] worked fine. though of course it cut off.
23:56:34 <zzo38> GNU is not bad but there is some problems and different opinion
23:56:47 <zzo38> I don't like GNU long options, is one thing
23:56:49 <ais523> GNU stuff varies a lot in quality
23:57:11 <siduxgor> calamari: If its meaning is derived from that of "neoconservative", it means "not liberal"
23:57:12 <CakeProphet> !haskell [1..3] >>= flip Control.Monad.replicateM ['a'..'z']
23:57:15 <EgoBot> ["a","b","c","d","e","f","g","h","i","j","k","l","m","n","o","p","q","r","s","t","u","v","w","x","y","z","aa","ab","ac","ad","ae","af","ag","ah","ai","aj","ak","al","am","an","ao","ap","aq","ar","as","at","au","av","aw","ax","ay","az","ba","bb","bc","bd","be","bf","bg","bh","bi","bj","bk","bl","bm","bn","bo","bp","bq","br","bs","bt","bu","bv","bw","bx","by","bz","ca","cb","cc","cd","ce","cf","cg","ch","ci","cj","ck","cl","cm","cn","co","cp","cq","cr","
23:57:36 <lucidalise> Neoliberalism is the philosophy espoused by those in charge of the global banks, etc.
23:58:17 <zzo38> I don't describe GNU as liberal or conservative, because liberal and conservative words describe different things instead
23:58:31 <CakeProphet> in fact I am too leet for EgoBot. Not handling infinite output? wtf. Doesn't /every/ IRC bot handle infinite output?
23:59:04 <lucidalise> zzo38: I was merely comparing it to the damage caused by neoliberalism.
23:59:28 <zzo38> I don't like GNU long options that is why I wrote ARGOPT
23:59:30 <fungot> lucidalise: by h. p. lovecraft and fnord h. fnord
23:59:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:59:51 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
23:59:58 <fungot> CakeProphet: i can't bother with any sort of crap. nice try tho, oh no... lol but i totally effing love these guys get molly sims react to samberg jizzing in his hole!!
00:00:14 <CakeProphet> hahaha. youtube fungot is my new favorite.
00:00:15 <fungot> CakeProphet: of course. seriously, read description :) haha, this movie or hitman? ( watching smoz tuck his tail) this song
00:00:45 <zzo38> fungot: This is not a movie?
00:00:46 <fungot> zzo38: hey guys! check out second from disaster on discovery channel, minus the french are surrender monkeys, nuff said.
00:01:31 <oerjan> !haskell main = loop 1; loop n = do putStr (' ':show n); hFlush stdout;
00:01:46 <CakeProphet> our asm will essentially need to be a simple register machine with some hardware operations I think?
00:01:53 <oerjan> !haskell import System.IO; main = loop 1; loop n = do putStr (' ':show n); hFlush stdout;
00:02:04 <zzo38> Do you like GNU long options? Or not
00:02:22 <oerjan> !haskell import System.IO; main = loop 1; loop n = do putStr (' ':show n); hFlush stdout; loop (n+1)
00:02:28 <calamari> CakeProphet: sounds good to me
00:02:45 <oerjan> siduxgor: ok so even explicitly flushing doesn't help...
00:02:51 <CakeProphet> oerjan: yeah I was about to say. not recursive.
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00:04:44 <CakeProphet> calamari: a plan 9 approach would result in a small instruction set. Simply delegate hardware to a filesystem, and then support filesystem operations?
00:04:56 <CakeProphet> or is that getting too complicated already?
00:05:05 <calamari> I don't think we need to worry about that yet
00:05:16 <calamari> but maybe I am misunderstanding
00:05:37 <lucidalise> sounds like a very un-pipey pipe dream.
00:05:43 <calamari> the ever vaporware esoteric os
00:06:09 <CakeProphet> calamari: Well since our asm is going to run standalone it does need native support for hardware, right? How do other virtual asms do this?
00:06:50 <zzo38> Does Plain TeX have any blackboard bold? (Even if so, I don't plan to use blackboard bold for !! operator)
00:06:51 <lucidalise> Mapped memory is best if you're on 64-bit.
00:07:03 <CakeProphet> calamari: this is new to me. I don't know much about OS design, obviously. :)
00:07:42 <CakeProphet> is it similar to the idea of ports in Erlang?
00:07:57 <lucidalise> You just have read byte from port, put byte to port operations.
00:07:58 <calamari> lucidalise: won't have to worry about it.. sticking with text mode I am sure
00:08:06 <CakeProphet> in Erlang a port is an abstract "thing" you can read to and write from
00:08:20 <CakeProphet> a "port driver" implements the hardware access.
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00:08:54 <zzo38> Also should I make it treat {} as a single operator or not (even if so, you can override it by adding a space { } if you want it separate)
00:08:57 <calamari> lucidalise: ESO is the duke nukem forever of the esoteric world :)
00:09:18 <lucidalise> {} is usually pointless in C as opposed to ;.
00:09:35 <lucidalise> Maybe set a control structure followed by ; differently.
00:09:40 <lucidalise> Bold the ; and adjust the spacing, say.
00:10:04 <CakeProphet> I don't know what the problem at hand is. So I have nothing else to comment. :)
00:10:40 <lucidalise> But now it is C, and Knuth uses CWEB, which iirc he co-authored.
00:10:52 <zzo38> I sometimes write like while(f(x)) {} instead of ; because it is less confusing if I write {} after a control structure instead of ;
00:11:07 <CakeProphet> lucidalise: hey. We all can't know everything about everything. :P
00:11:20 <lucidalise> CakeProphet: Mocking Knuth, then ignorance of one of his projects -- unforgivable!
00:11:40 <zzo38> WEB was with Pascal, now CWEB is like WEB but C, and now Enhanced CWEB, which is my own, adds some features such as line-numbers and meta-macros.
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00:13:06 <CakeProphet> calamari: I think you'll probably need to design the VM then. :P
00:13:46 <CakeProphet> if the assembler can be written in any language. I'd love to write it in Haskell using the Parsec library.
00:14:24 <Zuu> We need more machine code!
00:14:29 <CakeProphet> well, "the asm" is the machine code. Our vocabulary needs an adjustment I suppose.
00:14:42 <calamari> yes, that was my bad wording before
00:14:48 <CakeProphet> the assembler takes "the assembly code" and makes the virtual machine code.
00:15:00 <CakeProphet> so right now we're working on the machine code.
00:15:03 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB prints ++ and -- as up and down arrows. Assignment = is printed as a left arrow. == is printed as a single equal sign and != as a not-equal sign. Compound assignment operators such as += or |= is printed as the operator with a left arrow above the operator.
00:15:32 <CakeProphet> calamari: /can/ the assembler be in any language? Shouldn't we have one for the OS itself at some point?
00:15:41 <zzo38> Line numbers are printed in small numbers on the right side of the page, with a dot on the left side and a dot on the right side.
00:15:41 <calamari> CakeProphet: what I'm thinking about is the translation of something like interrupts into a queue
00:16:06 <Zuu> zzo38: making a C obfuscator?
00:16:21 <CakeProphet> calamari: hmmm, aren't ports also a kind of queue?
00:16:25 <calamari> CakeProphet: yep, it's a good point
00:16:33 <calamari> CakeProphet: that was in reference to the asm
00:16:35 <CakeProphet> calamari: so you could unify that. Interrupt = port
00:17:28 <CakeProphet> calamari: okay here's what we should do. The assembler should be written in an esolang that we eventually intend to compile into our assembly.
00:17:34 <calamari> CakeProphet: rewriting the assembler and compiler to run under the actual system is so far in the future we shouldn't even worry about it right now
00:17:55 <CakeProphet> calamari: ah. yeah that's true. I can make a Haskell assembler and then the ESO assembler can be written in an esolang.
00:18:22 <calamari> I mean if the worst happens we could code it in bfbasic lol
00:18:41 <CakeProphet> everything useful should be done in befunge. like fungot. :)
00:18:41 <fungot> CakeProphet: omg i busted a gut laughing when this accident happened in 1988 and there was more than a few of us will focus on what you say is shame
00:19:01 <calamari> but my guess is that it wouldn't be terribly difficult to write the assembler in almost any esolang
00:19:16 <CakeProphet> maybe. I'm not a master of esolang programming.
00:19:39 <CakeProphet> programming anything in brainfuck looks like... black magic to me
00:19:40 <calamari> I've written an asm for bf.. it was lame tho
00:20:11 <CakeProphet> I suppose the assembly language will take a simple command format right? like most assembler.
00:21:14 <CakeProphet> then I can actually go ahead and write an assembler, and then fill in the instructions later.
00:21:33 <CakeProphet> I'll just need to figure out the format of an argument. but the instruction part will be simple.
00:21:57 <calamari> I've recently written an assembler using flex/yacc
00:22:09 <calamari> but I know you want to use haskell so that's fine
00:22:51 <calamari> wasn't that big a deal but it took some time
00:23:02 <calamari> although that was mostly due to my divorce hehe
00:23:09 <CakeProphet> I've just finally got to a point where Haskell is easy to think in, so I prefer to use it when I can. I suppose which language we use for this "cross-assembler" doesn't matter.
00:23:44 <CakeProphet> anything that we intend to run on the OS itself needs to be an esolang though. for maximum esotericity.
00:24:06 <CakeProphet> hmmm. we VM design would be best for most esolangs anyways?
00:24:50 <CakeProphet> for example, would befunge run better on a register or a stack machine? Or does it even matter?
00:24:56 <Zuu> I'll get dissapointed if it wont be good for my esolang :P
00:25:39 <calamari> CakeProphet: a stack can be easily implemented via pointers
00:25:58 <CakeProphet> yeah, I suppose it doesn't matter. I've always preferred register machines to stack anyway. Dunno why.
00:26:49 <calamari> CakeProphet: there are no types to worry about
00:26:58 <CakeProphet> surely a port is different from a register.
00:27:39 <calamari> well I'm not sure we have decided on ports yet
00:28:28 <CakeProphet> ...it seems like this best abstraction for an IO device. I'm not sure how interrupts would work with it though. It seems you'd want to specify interrupt handlers, otherwise you'd end up polling for the interrupt, which is counter-intuitive. :P
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00:29:09 <calamari> for example in bf you do a , and magically get input (eventually)
00:29:21 <pikhq> Hooray, the power's back.
00:30:00 <CakeProphet> calamari: well it blocks. The port can just have a block on read operation.
00:30:46 <zzo38> I think OK for stack+register mode, where you have both, as well as special registers for top of stack value, second of stack value, and having multiple stacks (two stacks should be enough, but you can also have a way to select other register for stack)
00:31:02 <zzo38> Maybe you can even have a register to select which other register is treated as instruction pointer
00:31:25 <zzo38> Or have two separate modes one for reading the instruction and one for advancing the instruction
00:32:17 <zzo38> Yes, two stacks is enough for machine-codes, I think.
00:32:25 <CakeProphet> I think supporting both stacks and registers is a good idea as many esolangs use stacks heavily.
00:32:49 <calamari> okay so we can have a 32-bit stack pointer register
00:33:11 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes. And some can use some registers as well
00:33:26 <calamari> but I'm not sure why it would have to be cordoned off that way
00:33:44 <CakeProphet> and I like the port idea, unless there's a better way to handle hardware. And interrupts are still an open question.
00:33:46 <zzo38> Some esolangs have one "accumulator" register
00:33:57 <calamari> since any other register that you could dereference could also serve
00:34:09 <CakeProphet> calamari: makes it easy for esolangs to be ported to our machine code if it supports both rather than requiring stacks to be done with registers.
00:35:25 <CakeProphet> I believe ports is how BEAM handles hardware. ports with port drivers.
00:35:42 <calamari> well for example 8088 has a PUSH instruction, which basically changes a stack pointer value and writes the value (or the reverse, can't recall atm)
00:36:10 <CakeProphet> so what you're saying is with the right instruction set there is no need to have an abstraction of a stack?
00:36:58 <CakeProphet> so, to elaborate on the idea of ports. I'd say you basically have an instruction that creates a new port, and stores its address in a supplied register.
00:37:20 <CakeProphet> and then you have read/write/block-until-read operations that operate on the ports address/handle.
00:38:01 <CakeProphet> and the create-port instruction could have some means of specifying the "port driver" (to use the Erlang analogy), which is the native code that speaks to the hardware.
00:38:14 <calamari> usually the ports are prenumbered
00:38:28 <CakeProphet> ah, so they can't be dynamically allocated?
00:38:32 <calamari> although I suppose we don't have to do it that way
00:39:11 <CakeProphet> well with a VM there's no real reason to have a fixed set of locations for everything
00:39:22 <CakeProphet> Parrot, for example, allows you to dynamically allocate new registers.
00:39:31 <calamari> real ports are actually a pain to work with
00:39:53 <calamari> all sorts of timing issues and crap.. since you're talking directly to hardware
00:40:07 <CakeProphet> but we can remove that via abstraction right?
00:40:31 <lucidalise> http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/online/pages/man3/fopencookie.3.html
00:40:38 <CakeProphet> at least for the VM. maybe not for the hardware code.
00:41:14 <CakeProphet> memory mapping is new to me as well, actually.
00:45:04 <lucidalise> some part of memory address space, rather rh
00:45:04 <CakeProphet> Parrot has a mechanism where you essentially assign newly created registers to variables.
00:45:14 <lucidalise> gets its requests for writes and reads sent to some hardware
00:45:37 <lucidalise> e.g. you could have mem location 0 is 1 if there is an unread byte, 0 otherwise
00:45:48 <lucidalise> then mem location 1 is the byte in the buffer, reading it sets mem location 0 to 0
00:45:56 <lucidalise> so you loop until *0 == 1, then you read *1 and handle it
00:46:10 <pikhq> AAAGH GAAAAH FUCKING CONGRESS
00:46:24 <CakeProphet> lucidalise: sounds like implementing hardware support in brainfuck. :)
00:46:50 <pikhq> lucidalise: Oh, back in 2005 Santorum was wanting to limit what the National Weather Service could report.
00:47:11 <pikhq> Because they were "unfairly competing" with the private sector weather reporting services.
00:47:50 <pikhq> Someone would want to ruin the single least controversial and unambiguously good service of the US government.
00:47:55 <lucidalise> pikhq: i am so glad how well the assimilation of santorum's name into ... something new ... is going
00:48:43 <lucidalise> So because EVERYTHING FUCKING SUCKS I gotta write my own kernel.
00:48:54 <pikhq> lucidalise: No. Still pissed.
00:49:03 <pikhq> Just the freaking idea pisses me off.
00:49:39 <lucidalise> calamari: It's going to be Plan 9 turned up to 11: which is one of my more conservative designs.
00:49:59 <lucidalise> aliseOS, of course, has basically infinite uniqueness and practicality: but it will, at least, be undeniably perfect.
00:50:12 <pikhq> lucidalise: You should attain more time.
00:50:22 <pikhq> Don't they have that down at the corner store?
00:50:54 <calamari> CakeProphet: well since I'll be implementing the real vm on x86, that means interrupts and interrupt handlers
00:51:13 <lucidalise> pikhq: I seem to be staggering up to the discharge. Wrong words: They are pushing me, staggering and disoriented, to the discharge; but of course not a complete discharge, they'd feel as if they'd done me a disservice, that would weigh on their minds forever ... no, they're making sure I'm "well looked after":
00:51:23 <CakeProphet> calamari: ah. nothing fancy and abstract? Ah well.
00:51:27 <calamari> CakeProphet: but we can certainly make it easier than that for the internals
00:51:50 <pikhq> lucidalise: So, you will be leaving the unit and they will be observing you on a semiregular basis?
00:51:58 <CakeProphet> one of the things a VM should do is make compiling to it fairly simple. Especially for esolangs. :)
00:52:16 <pikhq> Improvement at least.
00:52:17 <lucidalise> So the plan, it seems, is this: I am discharged, to the local high school, to be edumacated in the Queen's Standard Curriculum for Mindless Drones by the part of it for people who have "missed a lot of school", which makes me expect stupid people, but who knows. (Apparently not.)
00:52:34 <lucidalise> I have, at least, seen there; it seems not so abhorrent. Pointless, certainly, but not abhorrent.
00:52:56 <calamari> argh this is where my os class being so long ago is killing me
00:53:09 <lucidalise> They won't let me get away from day-in, day-out standardised education ... not for anything other than avoiding nuclear holocaust.
00:53:23 <calamari> I really don't want to have to do busy waiting
00:53:25 <pikhq> lucidalise: Improvement, though.
00:53:43 <pikhq> At least you're out of the unit and in education for mundane folk.
00:53:50 <lucidalise> But apparently some concessions can be made, such as starting the day later and whatnot; so perhaps I can cope -- limp -- until I turn 16 and the behemoth that is the education authority slinks away to prey on some other innocent kid, hopefully one more naive so they won't know what hits them.
00:54:08 <pikhq> OHRAIT. European education.
00:54:10 <lucidalise> But I will get the afternoons and nights at home, so that is a thing; a god thing.
00:54:12 <pikhq> Public education ends at 16.
00:54:22 <lucidalise> pikhq: Not any more -- it's 18 for all the young'uns now.
00:54:46 <lucidalise> They have more and more mindless and increasingly even more hopeless edumacation awaiting them, poor fuckers!
00:54:50 <pikhq> lucidalise: Oh, so now it's akin to the US system in that it's available until you're 18 but mandatory until you're 16?
00:55:05 <lucidalise> pikhq: It's available until ... whenever you end up leaving university :P
00:55:06 <calamari> CakeProphet: the x86 reserves a part of low memory for pointers to interrupt handlers.. perhaps we could simply clone that idea?
00:55:10 <lucidalise> Or, well, college, if you can't get into uni.
00:55:18 <lucidalise> pikhq: But no, now it's mandatory until 18.
00:55:24 <calamari> CakeProphet: would certainly make the implementation easy :)
00:55:39 <lucidalise> I get out at 16. Anyway. Here is our system.
00:55:44 <pikhq> *You guys have public post-secondary education.*
00:56:02 <lucidalise> First school - after nursery. You know, regular shit.
00:56:14 <lucidalise> Middle school - I forget the exact age you start. 8 to 10 or something.
00:56:32 <pikhq> No, we have private post-secondary education and government-subsidised effectively private post-secondary education.
00:56:42 <lucidalise> High school - 14 to 16. Sixth form college - 16 to 18. Often high schools have a sixth form integrated, you know, if you can't make it into a good one.
00:56:54 <lucidalise> University - 18 to bearded and banana-eating.
00:57:08 <CakeProphet> calamari: would it increase the difficulty of compiler writing?
00:57:22 <lucidalise> pikhq: Hey, people here get bankrupt over student loans.
00:57:42 <pikhq> lucidalise: Here it's impossible to get bankrupt over student loans.
00:57:48 <calamari> CakeProphet: that's what I'm trying to figure out.. how do you map BF "," without busy waiting?
00:57:51 <CakeProphet> I think our inter-mediate assembly language should have some kind of simple way to specify a hardware IO device.
00:57:53 <pikhq> ... BECAUSE THATS EXEMPT FROM BANKRUPTCY
00:58:13 <pikhq> lucidalise: Cost per year on average?
00:58:21 <zzo38> In order to write a MBR code I had to know exactly the format in which the interrupt vectors are stored, so now I know.
00:58:25 <lucidalise> pikhq: Oxford is like £11,000 or something for tuition.
00:58:51 <pikhq> Youch. That is pretty pricy.
00:58:56 <lucidalise> Perhaps relatively cheap compared to the US: but my friend at Oxford is going to have some fun debt to spent the rest of his life paying off.
00:59:12 <lucidalise> pikhq: Well, Oxford /is/ one of the top, say, four educational institutions in the world.
00:59:17 <pikhq> lucidalise: No, that's the upper end of tuition in the US.
00:59:23 <calamari> CakeProphet: I just remembered that a lot of this work has already been done for us
00:59:31 <calamari> CakeProphet: let me see if I can find it
00:59:34 <pikhq> lucidalise: What does that include, though?
01:01:00 * pikhq cannot find a listed cost
01:02:30 <pikhq> For in-EU, £3,290.
01:05:19 <pikhq> For comparison, a year at a community college (Pikes Peak Community College's tuition is being used for reference) for an area resident is $3,798 a year.
01:06:41 <pikhq> (a community college, BTW, is post-secondary education, usually administered by a county or city government, that offers "adult learning" and associates' degrees.)
01:06:49 <lucidalise> pikhq: Now add exams, accommodation, books...
01:07:06 <pikhq> lucidalise: And you're talking pricy vs. pricy.
01:07:20 <calamari> CakeProphet: http://jonripley.com/easel/
01:07:26 <pikhq> Until you realise that you can plausibly pay $40,000 on tuition in the US.
01:07:27 <lucidalise> True ... and you do get Oxford, vs, say, some decent university.
01:07:37 <pikhq> (MIT, Harvard and the like.)
01:07:57 <pikhq> (I'd say MIT or Harvard are about the same caliber as Oxford. Agree?)
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01:08:43 <lucidalise> MIT have reduced their CS curriculum to Robots-in-Python. So, engineering is their only remaining discipline in which they excel.
01:08:50 <lucidalise> Harvard, okay, agreed, they're on the same level as Oxford.
01:08:59 <Gregor> What're we talking about?
01:09:16 <lucidalise> Gregor: Universities; specifically in comparison to Oxford w/ its $4,953/year tuition.
01:09:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Alise claimed that university in the UK was freaking expensive.
01:09:30 <lucidalise> pikhq: Still, would you rather say "I went to Harvard" or "I went to fucking OXFORD".
01:09:39 <Gregor> Not being paid to go to school must be weird :P
01:09:49 <pikhq> Gregor: Darned grad student.
01:10:11 <Gregor> I was aaaaalmost full-ride scholarshipped (THIS IS A WORD) all the way through undergrad.
01:10:52 <lucidalise> pikhq: tbh, though, mit has a better system than the uk
01:10:55 <pikhq> lucidalise: Oh yeah. Almost all the help there exists for fees in the US consists of private entities handing money at people they feel are qualified.
01:10:59 <lucidalise> MIT: "Okay, here is money to pay your tuition."
01:11:17 <lucidalise> UK: "Here is a loan to pay everything. You don't need to pay it back until you start earning money. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha HA ha ha ha ..."
01:11:30 <Gregor> Actually, almost all of my money right now is from the gov't.
01:11:40 <Gregor> Either the university itself (when TA'ing) or the NSF.
01:11:56 <pikhq> lucidalise: That's the standard US system except for one thing: *there isn't generally enough money to cover the costs*.
01:12:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, but you're a grad student.
01:12:22 <Gregor> I would make an awesome thumbs-up smiley, but I don't know how. So imagine one here:
01:12:29 <lucidalise> We set up the #esoteric Institution for Higher Learning.
01:12:37 <pikhq> lucidalise: Oh, also. The loans increase in payout, and the tuition increases in response.
01:12:43 <lucidalise> Based in, fucked if I know, Helsinki or Ontario or somewhere.
01:13:00 <pikhq> Making the damned loans into a way for the government to bleed money at universities.
01:13:34 <pikhq> Sorry, for the *students* to bleed money at universities.
01:14:06 <lucidalise> Gregor: Esoni for short, perhaps. (Esoteric-uni)
01:14:21 <lucidalise> Motto: Someone translate "[evil cackle]" into Latin.
01:16:47 <lucidalise> Anyway, we could have a Computer Science class taught by ais523, a Systems Administration class taught by pikhq, a Programming Language Design taught by Gregor and I (I am not egotistical, dammit), and...
01:16:52 <calamari> CakeProphet: you know.. it looks like he spent a lot of time on this, but it's really a mess. maybe we should assume a language with more powerful i/o than bf
01:17:16 <pikhq> lucidalise: Beautiful thing is, anyone can offer a degree.
01:17:28 <lucidalise> calamari: PESOIX, the only thing worse than PSOX.
01:17:38 <lucidalise> It was so bad that PSOX actually improved the state of the art.
01:17:40 <pikhq> Without accredation it's just a piece of paper, but still.
01:18:02 <lucidalise> pikhq: Accreditation is fucking easy: see, Maharashi University of Management.
01:18:04 <calamari> lucidalise: do you have a url for PSOX?
01:18:08 * pikhq gives everyone a Ph.D. in Doctorism.
01:18:22 <lucidalise> pikhq: Alas I even know someone intelligent who goes there /sigh
01:18:28 <lucidalise> Well, not know, but nomic-know. Agora-know.
01:18:35 <pikhq> lucidalise: Accredited by whom?
01:18:55 <lucidalise> Consciousness-based education? Accredit'd
01:18:56 <pikhq> Several such entities.
01:19:09 <pikhq> We love our capitalism.
01:19:27 <CakeProphet> calamari: assuming a language with more powerful i/o than bf.
01:19:29 <lucidalise> Run by the Transcendental Meditation cult famous for claiming its adherents can even, once advanced enough, fly.
01:19:31 <pikhq> It's accredited by one of the government ones.
01:19:50 <lucidalise> Oh, and the Beatles spent time with the leader at some point.
01:20:11 <pikhq> lucidalise: Y'mean, not smoking pot?
01:20:12 <lucidalise> Sexy Sadie? Yeah, that's about the leader of the cult.
01:20:20 <pikhq> (their music got better with pot)
01:20:34 <lucidalise> Lennon originally wanted to title the song "Maharishi",[1] but the Beatles changed the title to "Sexy Sadie" at George Harrison's request. Lennon was disillusioned after Maharishi Mahesh Yogi had allegedly made a sexual advance at one of the female members attending the course Maharishi was teaching at his ashram.
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01:22:32 <lucidalise> Oh yeah, and Transcendental Meditation of course is a form of "meditation" that involves repeating a meaningless, unique-to-you (not actually unique to you) mantra given to you by your amazing guru.
01:22:43 <lucidalise> This achieves perfect conscious existence^W^W^Wfuck all.
01:23:20 <calamari> CakeProphet: which esolangs does that leave us?
01:23:48 <CakeProphet> calamari: well, I mean. We should be able to support all of them, ideally. But befunge I think is a good choice because it has good IO support
01:25:05 <calamari> I'm only seeing int and char i/o
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01:27:39 <pikhq> lucidalise: To be perfectly fair, the *were* experimenting with, uh, just about everything they could.
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01:28:14 <pikhq> Also: nobody gives a shit about their personal beliefs, cause the music was pretty good. :P
01:28:51 <pikhq> Context jump: Maharishi University of Management seems like a freaking retarded school.
01:30:36 <pikhq> And yet, they offer CS degrees.
01:30:44 * pikhq wonders how good that program is.
01:30:54 * pikhq wonders if people who can fly can comment well.
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01:35:09 <lucidalise> pikhq: Pavitra is the Agora player who goes there. Studies math, says google. >_>
01:35:26 <lucidalise> So maybe I Internet-stalked the guy's relation to the uni after the initial shock! So what >_>
01:35:48 <lucidalise> Hey, he's one -- well, was one -- of the smartest Agora players; I was wondering how on earth one such as him could end up in such a place.
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01:39:38 <Gregor> So yeah ... EIHL ... maybe not :P
01:40:23 <fungot> CakeProphet: cruise mode holds it no one is my favorite. :d haha. if it is
01:40:38 <pikhq> Gregor: Clearly we should just genetically engineer humanity to make everyone inherently desire learning.
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02:21:28 <CakeProphet> calamari: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=27329#a27329
02:22:16 <CakeProphet> each instruction parser will go at the end of the file in the case statement. addOutput "string" accumulates a string to the machine code output
02:25:04 <calamari> where are you handling labels?
02:26:06 <CakeProphet> nowhere at the moment. I don't know the format of our assembly, so I don't have them yet. :)
02:26:19 <CakeProphet> but this is the basic instruction translator
02:26:48 <CakeProphet> I know next to nothing about assembly languages.
02:27:22 <CakeProphet> because I have an idea of how to implement them
02:29:06 <calamari> they are converted to code offsets
02:29:31 <calamari> actually, think about labels in C
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02:30:29 <calamari> with goto... and conditional gotos
02:30:30 <CakeProphet> so you make a label with a label declaration
02:30:44 <CakeProphet> and then goto instructions. How do these get translated to machine code?
02:31:17 <CakeProphet> I need to construct a table from label strings to.... what?
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02:31:34 <calamari> depends on the instruction.. can be absolute addresses or relative.. abosulte is not good tho.. relative is better for relocation
02:32:13 <calamari> okay sorry, let me explain better
02:32:49 <coppro> ircfs works by scanning a network's nicks for bots of known software, and then seeing if it's possible to store data on them e.g. factoids on supybot
02:32:55 <coppro> then, it stores data on those bots
02:33:38 <calamari> so lets say you write the label MYLABEL: and that happens to be at offset 0x1234 ... then later you are at offset 0x2345 and issue JMP MYLABEL... so absolute would store that like opcode 34 12
02:34:23 <calamari> relative would store it as 1234-2345 (plus or minus a few)
02:34:53 <calamari> coppro: sounds like a cool idea
02:35:14 <coppro> calamari: and how does that give 34 12?
02:35:45 <coppro> yeah, relative jumps are awesome
02:35:52 <Gregor> calamari is some kind of little-endian bigot!
02:35:59 <calamari> I think we should avoid absolute addressing tho
02:36:40 <Gregor> Actually I figured out why (and that) little-endian is better, so I no longer care :P
02:37:28 <calamari> the mainframes I work on are big endian
02:38:42 <Gregor> zLinux (or is it Z/Linux? LinuxZ? Something) OWNZ
02:38:45 <calamari> actually got to see a z10 the other day.. the hot air blowing out and noise is intense
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02:40:39 * Sgeo wonders if he should design a PSOX2
02:41:08 <CakeProphet> I still don't fully understand. Do I just need to save information about where I found the label then? And then substitute back in when the label is referred to (converted to relative)?
02:42:13 <calamari> so depending on how you do it, you might need two passes
02:42:30 <CakeProphet> well I'll need a pass to find labels and preprocess
02:43:53 <oerjan> CakeProphet: this being haskell, you want to use Tying The Knot
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02:45:06 <calamari> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Tying_the_Knot
02:45:09 <oerjan> i.e. you pass the map of labels into the parser, which uses it to translate the instructions; then the parser constructs the map of labels and returns it as part of its result.
02:45:37 <oerjan> and because of laziness this actually works :D
02:45:47 <CakeProphet> so I just... don't worry about it and do it all at once?
02:46:24 <oerjan> _assuming_ the position of the labels is not affected by their values
02:46:57 <calamari> oerjan: yeah not gonna do that :)
02:47:00 <CakeProphet> the position of the label is its value... if I understood that correctly.
02:47:33 <calamari> CakeProphet: what he means is that sometimes depending on the range of the jump you might have a 2 or 3 byte instruction and you don't know in advance
02:48:10 <oerjan> if that were the case it would break down
02:48:12 <calamari> so that is simple to solve.. don't make the instructions that way :)
02:48:22 <CakeProphet> so the offset is a byte offset? So I need to accumulate the offset value for each machine code byte?
02:48:35 <calamari> and since we control the machine code, don't worry about it :)
02:49:09 <CakeProphet> basically I've got a structure called AsmState, which is the state I'm carrying around in my parser
02:49:25 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you would want to have the current position yeah
02:49:27 <Gregor> http://www.wimp.com/cloudchamber/ This is so much more awesome than anything else ever.
02:49:35 <CakeProphet> AsmState = AsmState { output :: String, labels :: Map String ???, offset :: Word8}
02:50:23 <CakeProphet> so to write output code you do addOutput "string"
02:50:56 <CakeProphet> so I guess in addOutput I can just accumulate the offset per character?
02:51:22 <CakeProphet> and when I encounter a label I add a new Map entry with the current offset?
02:53:03 * calamari sticks some Thorium in Gregor's pocket
02:53:46 <oerjan> CakeProphet: note you probably want to keep the labels you are building and the labels you are using as different fields
02:55:07 <oerjan> at least if you use Map, which is strict in the keys
02:55:09 <CakeProphet> I really don't know how Tying the Knot works. :P
02:55:18 <Gregor> "Is that thorium in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me"
02:55:36 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i don't really know much about that one
02:55:50 <CakeProphet> oerjan: it's all lazy, as the name suggests.
02:57:40 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i think not passing both values makes it harder to handle missing label errors in a controlled way
02:58:36 <oerjan> hm you'd get an infinite recursion then, i think
02:59:04 <calamari> might not have to worry about missing labels since the assembler code will probably be compiler generated
02:59:23 <CakeProphet> I need two maps? One contains already found labels and one contains?
03:00:06 <oerjan> if you have m = Map.insert key val m and then lookup anything _other_ than key, you get an infinite recursion
03:00:26 <oerjan> but if you use two maps you can get an actual lookup failure instead
03:01:25 <oerjan> one map contains the labels that the parser has found already. the other contains all the labels including the ones it hasn't found yet, and is passed into the initial parser :D
03:02:23 <oerjan> the parser builds the first but uses the second for actual lookups
03:03:35 <CakeProphet> oerjan: ...I don't understand how I construct that second map for the parser before-the-fact.
03:03:59 <Sgeo> calamari, CakeProphet, would a redesigned PSOX be helpful?
03:04:08 <oerjan> this works fine as long as the lookups are never used for conditional branching in the parser or for building the first map
03:04:10 <Sgeo> No NULs, and tested with multiple languages
03:04:15 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: dunno, calamari will have to answer that.
03:04:31 <calamari> Sgeo: I haven't looked at PSOX enough to know
03:04:43 <CakeProphet> oerjan: I mean. How do I make the second map? What do I pass in?
03:04:46 <oerjan> CakeProphet: it is simply the first map from the final state of the parser, passed back into the initial state
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03:05:09 <CakeProphet> oerjan: ...oh my. okay, that makes sense. But I'm still not sure how...
03:05:21 <oerjan> that's the actual "tying" part of the knot :D
03:05:23 <Sgeo> First idea: The first character that the language sends to PSOX
03:05:56 <calamari> Sgeo: I don't know if PSOX worries about a non-PSOX environment, but that wouldn't be needed
03:06:06 <Sgeo> NUL if NULs etc. are the easiest, 1 if numeric I/O is available, C if ...
03:06:13 * Sgeo is now talking about PSOX2
03:06:32 <CakeProphet> oerjan: okay so when I first run the parser I have to give it an initial state value. What should that be for the second map?
03:06:53 <Sgeo> Better yet, a series of tests
03:07:01 <Sgeo> calamari, #esoteric
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03:07:47 <calamari> I didn't realize was PSOX was, glad you kept going with PESOIX
03:08:16 <Sgeo> The program outputs 0. The program outputs the largest number it can, or 0 if it can output theoretically any number
03:08:23 <Sgeo> Then maybe some more tests
03:08:28 <Sgeo> calamari, alise hates PSOX
03:08:35 <Sgeo> I didn't realize he hated PESOIX more >.>
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03:09:03 <oerjan> CakeProphet: hm does Parsec have a MonadFix instance? that would make it easier i think
03:09:25 <calamari> Sgeo: really PESOIX and PSOX seem to be overkill
03:10:00 <calamari> Sgeo: at least if we are going wit hthe interrupt vector table idea
03:12:54 <CakeProphet> EsoAsm rev 2: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=27329#a27330
03:15:19 <calamari> Sgeo: how did you handle blocking btw?
03:15:52 <Sgeo> calamari, as in?
03:16:24 <calamari> Sgeo: actually nm, I guess the underlying OS handled it for you
03:21:26 <CakeProphet> oerjan: you'll have to help me understand this Tying the knot thing because it looks like magic.
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03:22:43 <CakeProphet> oerjan: you'll have to help me understand this Tying the knot thing because it looks like magic.
03:23:03 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i cannot get to the logs so i don't know what i missed
03:23:05 <CakeProphet> could you show a simple example. I'm not following the wiki on the doubly linked list thing.
03:23:15 <CakeProphet> EsoAsm rev 2: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=27329#a27330
03:23:16 <pikhq> Or perhaps sufficiently advanced technology.
03:23:50 <oerjan> my trouble here is remembering the actual Parsec functions :D
03:23:56 <Sgeo> You missed a ha
03:24:17 <oerjan> !haskell :t Text.Parsec.runParser
03:24:46 <oerjan> yeah sure don't be helpful EgoBot
03:24:56 <oerjan> !haskell Text.Parsec.runParser
03:25:06 <CakeProphet> *EsoAsm Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec> :t runParser
03:25:06 <CakeProphet> runParser :: GenParser tok st a -> st -> SourceName -> [tok] -> Either ParseError a
03:25:38 <oerjan> barring an actual MonadFix, that function seems like the best place to do the knot tying, i think
03:25:46 <Sgeo> !haskell putStrLn "Hello world"
03:26:15 <CakeProphet> like... how do I magically have a reference to a value that is built later?
03:26:31 <Sgeo> Wait, circular references are possible in Haskell?
03:27:20 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Dude, circular references are done *all the time* in Haskell.
03:27:28 <CakeProphet> pikhq: yes, but I don't understand this particular one.
03:27:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, I was the one asking the question
03:27:42 <pikhq> x = 1 : x -- Glee!
03:28:42 <CakeProphet> oerjan: where could I get the st to plug into that function?
03:29:13 <CakeProphet> or part of the state rather, the second label map
03:29:36 <oerjan> ok assume your parser returns not just the result, but also the state
03:29:46 <CakeProphet> this is what it currently does, so alright.
03:31:03 <oerjan> tiedParser p st name toks = pRes where pRes = runParser (p) st{labels2 = l1}; Right (_, ASMState {labels1 = l1}) = pRes
03:32:05 <CakeProphet> is there a function name that goes in front of that Right?
03:32:31 <oerjan> the pRes should be a Right if the parsing succeeds
03:32:59 <CakeProphet> I get it now. it's just some tricky referencing
03:33:47 <CakeProphet> hmmm, what would be good names for these label maps?
03:34:00 <oerjan> it is of course vital that no attempt is made to strictly evaluate that l1 until the parser actually _has_ returned a Right
03:34:48 <oerjan> i also missed some arguments on runParser, but you can fix that :D
03:35:33 <oerjan> it won't matter if ASMState isn't strict in labels2
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03:39:47 <cheater99> oerjan: i wanted to say something to you but forgot what.
03:40:01 <cheater99> you mentioned something to me then disappeared for a week. damn you.
03:40:23 <oerjan> i've been here about every day :D
03:40:40 <oerjan> no definitely this one
03:40:43 <Sgeo> Actually, what is so unplayable about death walz? Some poorly aligned notes is all it takes to make it nonsense?
03:40:57 <cheater99> i know because my autocomplete hasn't worked.
03:41:01 <oerjan> CakeProphet: then l1 should not be used, i hope
03:41:07 <oerjan> cheater99: i'm not here _all_ day
03:41:31 <oerjan> cheater99: i said _every_
03:41:32 <cheater99> <oerjan> i've been here about every day :D
03:41:47 <oerjan> those are not the same thing
03:41:51 <CakeProphet> oerjan: don't you need to pattern match for Left somewhere?
03:41:55 <cheater99> yes, if you were here every day, that would mean for each day, you were here that day.
03:42:11 <oerjan> CakeProphet: no, the match is lazy and is only evaluated if l1 is
03:43:02 <oerjan> like is generally the case for where and let
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03:44:26 <cheater99> you are manipulating the facts, oerjan!
03:45:04 <oerjan> cheater99: i am pretty sure i've been here for at least some hours nearly every day in recent memory
03:45:26 <cheater99> but you weren't here when i needed u
03:46:14 <oerjan> so did it have anything to do with math?
03:47:01 <cheater99> i think maybe computability or something.
03:47:20 <oerjan> complexity, turing machines, P=NP?
03:47:44 * oerjan has started slowly going through rjlipton's blog archive
03:48:24 <cheater99> just search for cheater99> oerjan:
03:49:13 <oerjan> <cheater99> oerjan: but functions in python aren't first-order objects
03:49:26 <cheater99> we were talking about normalization
03:49:47 <oerjan> yes and what does that even _mean_ in the context of python, to start with
03:49:50 <cheater99> and you said that normalization does not happen in any lambda calculus that is touring complete
03:50:16 <cheater99> but given that the functions in python aren't first-order, you can't do a lot of tricks that break normalization in lambda calculus
03:50:22 <oerjan> well i'm not sure i said _exactly_ that, but something close
03:50:59 <oerjan> ah but every infinite computation (which python must have) is essentially a break of normalization
03:51:25 <oerjan> because normalization in LC at least is the same as saying every evaluation strategy must terminate
03:51:49 <cheater99> and you can easily factor out the non-terminating parts
03:51:52 <oerjan> and actually running a program is definitely an evaluation strategy
03:52:00 <CakeProphet> EsoAsm rev 3: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=27329#a27331
03:52:02 <cheater99> SO, the bits that interest us are actually going to terminate
03:52:11 <cheater99> hence, they can be strongly normalized, no?
03:52:36 <oerjan> "easily factor out", have you _ever_ heard of the halting problem? :D
03:53:08 <ais523> most practical programs can be written in such a way that the nonterminating bits are confined to bits of the code
03:53:11 <ais523> e.g. the totality monad
03:53:20 <cheater99> oerjan: i don't know what you're talking about right now
03:53:25 <cheater99> oerjan: i don't write my apps to never terminate
03:53:41 <ais523> interpreters are an exception
03:54:11 <oerjan> cheater99: well then you are writing them to be at least weakly normalizing by design
03:54:15 <ais523> (in other words: the halting problem in unsolvable in general, but often solvable in any individual case, including many of the useful ones)
03:55:01 <cheater99> oerjan: in general, you only write non-terminating problems in the Wankers 101 class
03:55:09 <CakeProphet> oerjan: so when I add labels I should refer to buildMap, and when I refer to labels I should use labelMap
03:55:35 <oerjan> cheater99: the halting problem says essentially that if you have a program that you don't know whether is terminating, then you cannot always decide
03:56:32 <CakeProphet> it's almost like programming in imperitive langs.
03:57:09 <CakeProphet> I wonder how much memory this parser will end up consuming
03:57:20 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you are essentially getting two passes automatically just from the dataflow
03:57:25 <Quadrescence> How is using a state monad to do imperative work bett---okay
03:58:25 <ais523> Quadrescence: it lets you go functional-style and just use the imperative bits when they become relevant
03:58:40 <ais523> if you really want to mix imperative and functional a lot, though, ML is probably neater than Haskell
03:59:29 <Quadrescence> I don't think (S)ML is much better for doing imperative stuff. I mean, yeah, it's impure (or can be), but bla bloo bla it's not pretty
03:59:39 <CakeProphet> that is the only downside of using State so far.
03:59:50 <ais523> the only ML I know is OCaml
04:00:13 <ais523> Quadrescence: I'm aware of the existence of SML
04:00:19 <ais523> and really, the differences between the MLs aren't major
04:00:27 <ais523> compared to the difference between, say, OCaml and Java
04:00:46 <Quadrescence> Yeah, the differences aren't huge. Mostly minor things, like bits of syntax and some little rules
04:00:48 <oerjan> CakeProphet: the Parsec State may not be quite the same as the State monad, unless they've fixed it up recently. Does it have a MonadState instance?
04:02:05 <oerjan> because that would give you get, put and modify. although that's essentially the same as those anyhow
04:02:27 <oerjan> (applies a function automatically)
04:02:43 <CakeProphet> as far as I can tell they're exactly the same
04:03:04 <CakeProphet> GenParser and friends are have a State transformer
04:12:40 <CakeProphet> behold! a knot-tying parser that can now add labels and access their offsets in a pseudo-magic fashion
04:12:44 <CakeProphet> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=27329#a27332
04:12:51 <CakeProphet> the only thing missing is... instruction parsers. :)
04:14:56 <CakeProphet> of course I haven't tested it at all. But compiling with no type errors is a fairly good guarantee.
04:15:05 <CakeProphet> and I don't really know how I /could/ test it atm with no instruction set.
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04:17:38 <oerjan> you could do subleq, maybe?
04:17:40 <Sgeo_> Someone should write music that has impossible stuff, but when you strip out the meaningless stuff, it's a rickroll
04:18:58 <oerjan> CakeProphet: single-instruction TC machine code
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04:19:58 <oerjan> subtract and branch if less than or equal
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04:20:33 <oerjan> so just one instruction and labels should be enough to test a barebones assembler
04:21:21 <CakeProphet> see link above for the latest update to the assembler (well, not the latest, I spotted a bug in the parser combinators)
04:21:55 <calamari> CakeProphet: I'm not really equipped to run haskell right now, so please hold onto it :)
04:22:26 <calamari> I think I'm going to need to call it a night unfortunately.. although the asm is nearly worked out
04:22:30 <CakeProphet> calamari: well, it doesn't really work yet. It's just a skeleton still
04:22:44 <CakeProphet> I need an actual instruction set to interpret. Which I'll do later because I've been working on this for a while now.
04:23:55 <oerjan> that bot is not really helping his case....
04:25:02 <CakeProphet> at the moment is fairly general purpose. You could plug in the parsers for any kind of instruction set at this point.
04:25:11 * CakeProphet will probably re-use this code for other crazy VM designs.
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04:27:57 <CakeProphet> oerjan: due to the introduction of this knot-tying thing... I know cannot guess the evaluation order of my program at all.
04:31:56 <CakeProphet> oerjan: I could use this same strategy for macros yes?
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04:51:30 <SevenInchBread> oerjan: scan for macro definitions, add them to a build map, knot-tie a map that represents the finished macro map, and access that
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04:59:31 <oerjan> CakeProphet: ok there could be trouble then if macros are allowed to do macro definitions
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05:00:31 <oerjan> or alternatively if macros can _hide_ macro definitions, such as #if in C
05:00:55 <CakeProphet> I don't actually know if we're going to implement a preprocessor
05:01:23 <oerjan> um that's not my point
05:02:25 <oerjan> the point is that in order for knot-tying of macro definitions to work, you cannot allow the content of macro definitions to affect how macro definitions are parsed
05:02:58 <pikhq> The worst thing about the CPP is there is no way for macros to produce further macros.
05:03:29 <pikhq> ... That was a non sequitur that made sense when I typed it somehow.
05:03:44 <Gregor> (m4c is the imaginary language of C with M4 instead of CPP)
05:03:58 <pikhq> I'm not sure whether to vomit or applaud.
05:04:17 <Gregor> Vomit once you see my m4c "header" that gives OO to C :P
05:04:26 <ais523> m4 was invented as a general-purpose preprocessor that's more powerful than CPP, after all
05:05:00 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i understand this is a relevant problem in scheme, which says behavior is undefined if definitions can affect what is a definition
05:05:10 <coppro> m4 gives us autotools :(
05:05:22 <pikhq> coppro: No, *Stallman* gave us autotools.
05:05:34 <coppro> pikhq: I know; I was joking
05:05:35 <Gregor> And autotools gives us portable software.
05:05:46 <oerjan> but haskell knot-tying is more breakable than scheme macros, i suspect, at least without additional cleverness
05:06:00 <coppro> Gregor: autotools is not worth the effort it takes to get working
05:07:44 <CakeProphet> oerjan: so #if would create such a situation?
05:08:10 <CakeProphet> if so, we could just leave it out. Macros would be immensly useful in an assembler... #if only somewhat (I think?)
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05:08:46 <oerjan> CakeProphet: however this is all moot if macros can only be used after they're defined.
05:10:12 <CakeProphet> oerjan: so basically the code that builds the macro map can't access it or it will loop?
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05:43:01 <CakeProphet> oerjan: ha. People on #haskell are tryin to convince me that using state is a bad idea. :)
05:43:28 <oerjan> parsec state in particular?
05:43:36 <coppro> using state in what sense?
05:44:00 <coppro> Parsec state should be avoided if possible; it may not be
05:45:08 <oerjan> technically a writer monad might be even better for building label maps, i think. but parsec doesn't come with that.
05:45:41 <oerjan> and you still need state for the current offset
05:47:11 <oerjan> or maybe not, i vaguely recall Maps may not have efficient union
05:48:27 <oerjan> it might be considered cleaner to use parsec to build a data representation without doing the actual label lookups inside it
05:48:35 <CakeProphet> they're suggested I carry around a monolithic data structure throughout the Parsec parser as return values
05:51:04 <coppro> CakeProphet: in any case, it should be impossible to have state anyways
05:51:13 <coppro> so not quite sure how you'd do anything else
05:51:56 <Sgeo_> CakeProphet, isn't that.. what State and/or ST do?
05:52:00 <Sgeo_> Well, ST not so literally
05:52:19 <ais523> State doesn't really give you state
05:52:24 <ais523> it just automates the passing-around of state
05:52:38 <CakeProphet> yes that's what MonadState in general does
05:52:47 <CakeProphet> and Parsec parsers implement a state monad.
05:54:58 <coppro> Parsec's a tad more confusing
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06:06:46 <coppro> CakeProphet: backtracking
06:07:25 <CakeProphet> ah... does it not reset state upon backtrack?
06:07:58 <CakeProphet> or it does and that's why it's more confusing?
06:08:33 <coppro> well, it (like all of Haskell), doesn't really have a state to start with
06:08:55 <coppro> if you're going to pretend it has state, then yes, it resets that state
06:08:59 <coppro> but it doesn't have state
06:09:52 <coppro> semantically it makes a lot of difference
06:09:53 <pikhq> Does it have Buddha nature?
06:09:57 <CakeProphet> not having C-style state doesn't mean you don't use state. Haskell uses plenty of state.
06:10:09 <coppro> no, Haskell doesn't use state
06:10:29 * pikhq beats coppro with STM
06:10:35 <CakeProphet> ah, so then the internal configuration of any kind of hardware that implements a Haskell program is just sitting still, right? motionless. no state.
06:10:51 <pikhq> StateT, wasn't it? That's the strict state one.
06:11:38 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Arguably, one does not execute a Haskell program, but rather executes the program described by the Haskell program.
06:11:59 <pikhq> This, I presume, is what coprro is referring to.
06:12:02 <CakeProphet> okay. then I guess Haskell /doesn't/ have state.
06:12:22 <coppro> hence why IO is a monad
06:13:30 <CakeProphet> conceptually I think it has the equivalent of state. via recursive functions and various monads.
06:14:09 <CakeProphet> so I still say the distinction makes no difference. :P
06:14:48 <CakeProphet> I have been defending my design choices for the past hour
06:15:26 <coppro> if I was implementing a complex parser in Parsec, I'd make an AST data structure through the monad
06:15:40 <Sgeo_> pikhq, that's a very concise and clear way of describing it
06:16:00 <Sgeo_> main is ultimately a description of what to do
06:16:12 <coppro> Sgeo_: I liked ais523's description of Haskell simply returning a giant input->output mapping table
06:18:35 <pikhq> A perfectly valid if abstract way of viewing the semantics of the IO monad.
06:19:00 <coppro> the program one is closer to the truth
06:19:28 <pikhq> Fairly close to how it actually is implemented.
06:19:30 <CakeProphet> every program should model execution as salmon swimming upstream
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07:23:03 <Gregor> All that stands between me and finishing the laundry is four full, finished, but un-emptied driers.
07:23:12 <oerjan> advanced regret generating hell
07:23:13 <Gregor> At what point do you just take their clothes and throw them all over the room?
07:23:18 <Gregor> Fifteen minutes? Twenty? Thirty?
07:24:40 <oerjan> well i'm _still_ not getting it
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07:25:43 * oerjan is not accustomed to the idea of doing laundry in public places
07:26:07 <fizzie> Yes, isn't that unseemly? Laundry is a dish best served behind closed doors, like the saying goes.
07:26:57 <oerjan> hm actually there was that during my half year in the US
07:27:09 <coppro> fizzie: not everyone has a personal laundry machine
07:27:37 <fizzie> Reserving a washing-machine/drier-thing for a period of time and then not emptying it was a growth industry at the student apartments at the university, too.
07:28:36 <fizzie> Usually people just put unemptied-after-half-an-hour-or-so stuff in piles on top of the machines/tables rather than uniformly distributing them all over the room, though.
07:29:23 <oerjan> how boringly uncathartic
07:29:51 <fizzie> Well, I think sometimes they left angry notes, too.
07:31:33 <fizzie> (Also there were some cases of inexplicable underwear disappearments that I heard of. But that might be related to something completely different than retribution for exceeding reservation-times.)
07:32:17 <fizzie> I'm having trouble figuring out whether you want to remove the h from "think" or "they".
07:32:30 <oerjan> dammit the spelling was right the first time
07:32:50 <fizzie> You could plausibly claim that -h+h is a no-op.
07:33:19 <oerjan> it just looked wrong, and my browser chose _just_ this time to lock up (well with some help by something trashing my laptop)
07:34:18 <oerjan> (that was for uncathartic, btw)
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07:36:15 <fizzie> The cold, cathartic wastelands of North.
07:40:39 <Gregor> Either way, if I'm taking these clothes out of the drier, then I'm pawing around in some uknown woman's underthings.
07:41:01 <Gregor> Which I hear unknown women don't usually appreciate?
07:41:16 <Gregor> So I decided to just wait her out :P
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07:43:56 <Gregor> oerjan: What an extremely weird thing to say :P
07:44:01 <Gregor> fizzie: What an extremely gay thing to say :P
07:45:38 <fizzie> But it's *the* implement for not touching things!
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07:50:39 <Gregor> Tomorrow is my first opportunity to wear my brand new, awesomely bright and shiny solid-color pink tie.
07:50:49 <Gregor> SO, should I wear it with a pink shirt, which is obviously appropriate,
07:50:55 <Gregor> or should I wear it with, say, a maroon shirt?
07:51:17 <fizzie> Didn't you have some sort of system(tm) for color-matching?
07:51:27 <Gregor> Both of these match wonderfully.
07:51:32 <Gregor> Which is the problem :P
07:51:57 <Gregor> I can match in the "these are the same color" sense.
07:51:57 <Gregor> Or in the "these go together sense"
07:51:57 <Gregor> Also I could wear a green shirt and match in the "these don't match" sense
07:52:21 <fizzie> I'm tempted to say "maroon" just because it's a funny word. Maroon, maroon, maroon, maroon. Marooned on Mars.
07:52:40 <Gregor> I do have some pretty spectacular maroon shirts.
07:54:51 <fizzie> Possibly, but that's not an episode of the Commander Keen series.
07:55:35 <oerjan> i didn't even know it _was_ a name of a story before i said it. although i of course suspected it.
07:56:00 <fizzie> "1. "Marooned on Mars" (first released as shareware on December 14, 1990)
07:56:00 <fizzie> While Commander Keen is exploring Mars, the Vorticon steal four vital components of his ship and hide them in Martian cities, each guarded by a Vorticon soldier. In this episode, Keen acquires his trademark pogo stick and meets a variety of Martian aliens and robots."
07:56:00 <Gregor> Your Anal Sex on Uranus
07:57:09 <Gregor> Androids from Andromeda!
07:57:18 <fizzie> The Mercurian Meritocracy.
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08:31:43 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh2pc72CNek&feature=related
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10:50:10 <Sgeo_> How can someone know what a closure is and not know what first-class functions are?
10:50:56 <CakeProphet> I don't know but I know someone who used to be the same.
10:51:26 <CakeProphet> but said person has always only halfway grasped everything they learn.
10:53:57 <Sgeo_> <TheRevoltingX> Runnable run = new Runnable() { public void run() { do_something() };
10:53:57 <Sgeo_> <TheRevoltingX> GuiView.post(run);
10:54:06 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> GuiView.post(() => { do_something();});
10:54:06 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> Or probably GuiView.post(do_something); would work in this case
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10:59:20 <Sgeo_> "it's definetly not as expressive"
10:59:30 <Sgeo_> "but damn it's easy to use"
11:01:48 <Sgeo_> Hm, do C's function pointers count as C having first-class functions?
11:02:18 <CakeProphet> not quite. it's not the full meaning of first-class
11:02:20 <Deewiant> It doesn't have e.g. function literals
11:02:48 <CakeProphet> certainly it has some elements of first-class functions. You can reference the function as a value. But yeah, no closures or anything like that.
11:06:24 <Ilari> Necressiting hacks like exporting pointers to static functions...
11:09:33 <CakeProphet> Java requires the most awkward construction ever with anonymous types.
11:09:46 <Sgeo_> CakeProphet, which is what this person is defending
11:10:11 <Sgeo_> Which is _still_ better than LSL.
11:10:22 <CakeProphet> eh. IMO delegate types are a better solution to that kind of problem.
11:10:52 <Ilari> What I would like in Java is method pointers (with ability to combine them with instance).
11:11:04 <Ilari> (both precombine and combine on call).
11:13:19 <ais523> Ilari: Java 1.7 has that, IIRC
11:13:21 <CakeProphet> they're typesafe, and much less cumersome to work with.
11:13:30 <ais523> Class#method, instance#method
11:13:49 <CakeProphet> with the same kind of type safety mechanism?
11:14:15 <CakeProphet> I can't imagine what kind of reprecussions non-safe method pointers would have.
11:14:40 <CakeProphet> actually I can: unexpected runtime errors.
11:18:59 <CakeProphet> I think the obstacle C-style languages having good type systems is the syntax
11:19:09 <CakeProphet> it is interleaved in with the program code.
11:19:49 <CakeProphet> so complex, Haskell-style types quickly become tedious and hard to read.
11:20:00 * CakeProphet has seen generics overdone in C# and Java both.
11:20:44 <CakeProphet> at least C# /has/ decent parameterized types.
11:21:30 <Sgeo_> When did C# get Tuples?
11:21:45 <fizzie> I've seen more than one Java library which contains a custom generic "Pair" class.
11:23:24 <CakeProphet> so Action and Func kind of serve as "anonymous delegates"
11:24:29 <CakeProphet> er... substitute the C# Int with Integer. That's the correct boxed int type.
11:26:32 <Sgeo_> Wait, this person knows Erlang. How do they not understand what I'm trying to express?
11:26:52 <Sgeo_> "pointers are process ids"
11:27:11 <Deewiant> Do they know anything other than Erlang? :-P
11:29:31 <Deewiant> If they know C++ that statement about pointers is somewhat unexpected
11:30:45 <Sgeo_> They were referring specifically to Erlang
11:31:36 <CakeProphet> perhaps they've just gone along this whole time
11:31:45 <CakeProphet> not really knowing anything, but getting along
11:33:15 * CakeProphet invented this statistic out of his head, btw. It's far too early for me to still be awake.
11:36:02 <fizzie> As we all are well aware, 89 % of all statistics are made up on the spot.
11:37:30 <fizzie> I don't really know, so I just made it up (gasp).
11:42:25 <Sgeo_> What esolangs might have trouble outputting newlines as required by a spec?
11:43:19 <fizzie> Underload has trouble outputting characters you can't input, so if you can't input a newline... usually you can, though.
11:44:20 <Sgeo_> I think the first question that PSOX 2.0 will ask is if it wants to use PSOX 2.1 options
11:44:28 <Sgeo_> Well, third question
11:44:42 <Sgeo_> First being "What is false?" and second "What is true?"
11:46:30 <fizzie> Thue's conventions for outputting newlines are a bit vague, but I guess usually it's made possible.
11:47:24 <Sgeo_> I should choose a core set of languages that PSOX2 is known to work well with
11:47:53 <Sgeo_> Hm. Maybe the more "special needs" languages
11:49:30 <fizzie> Then there's those that don't really have output.
11:50:04 <Sgeo_> I don't care about those
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11:51:49 <Sgeo_> Taxi will be a core language. Because I say so.
11:55:15 <Sgeo_> What languages can't easily output numbers and/or characters?
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12:08:57 <Sgeo_> Are there languages that can't output, say, more than N characters to a line?
12:10:04 <CakeProphet> er... theoretically no. Because languages have no semantics. But screw theoretics.
12:11:09 <Sgeo_> Underload doesn't take input?
12:11:13 <Sgeo_> Then it can't be supported
12:11:34 <Sgeo_> Actually, screw that.
12:11:41 <Sgeo_> I'm making Underload a core PSOX2 language.
12:12:25 <CakeProphet> force it to take input! That's the spirit.
12:12:43 <Sgeo_> No, Underload+PSOX will just have limited capabilities
12:13:17 <Sgeo_> It won't be able to say, react to events in an IRC chatroom, but it can still join one, say something, and leave.
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12:20:21 <Sgeo_> Evil idea: PSOX2 has a domain for turing-completeness. A language like Underload can actually output stuff that the PSOX interpreter will execute, and that code can do I/O
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12:26:01 <Sgeo_> It's a language embedded directly in PSOX2
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12:27:30 <Sgeo_> You know what, I'll go ahead and make HQ9+ a core language.
12:27:46 * Sgeo_ wonders how that could be made to work, though
12:38:40 * Sgeo_ decides to call the embedded language PSOX.EZ, and a version not running in PSOX PSOZ.EZ-lite
12:38:53 <Sgeo_> Although PSOZ is a cool name
12:40:35 <AnMaster> hm, while learning haskell I noticed that the opposite of the term "break even" must be "span odd" ;)
12:42:54 <Sgeo_> ez.somefunc 1 "hello"2
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12:43:40 <AnMaster> as in, what does the 2 at the end do
12:43:51 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, it's another argument to ez.somefunc
12:44:01 <Sgeo_> The string is terminated by the second "
12:44:11 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, so what about the trailing 2?
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12:44:26 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, that's another argument. The function accepts 3 arguments for some reason
12:44:49 <Sgeo_> Although I think I'll try something else
12:44:57 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, oh so how do you separate the arguments
12:45:05 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, depends on the type of argument
12:45:06 <AnMaster> I mean, it looked like it was separated by space there
12:45:25 <Sgeo_> Numbers are terminated by space, strings by "
12:45:35 <Sgeo_> ez.somefunc 1 hello"2
12:45:50 <Sgeo_> Or strings could be terminated by space I guess
12:45:57 <Sgeo_> ez.somefunc 1 hello\ world 2
12:46:19 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, this was supposed to be embedded in PSOX?
12:46:27 <Sgeo_> You have to realize, I'm trying to make it so it resembles what would be output by a PSOX2 program
12:46:41 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, why not?
12:47:01 <Sgeo_> PSOX2 programs choose how they terminate numbers, how strings are delt with, etc
12:47:06 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, what do you mean "resembles what would be output by a PSOX2 program"?
12:47:48 <Sgeo_> Making PSOX.EZ-lite (Which isn't embedded in PSOX) helps me consider what options need to be available
12:47:55 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, so about 4/5 of bf hello world for PSOX will be spent at setting up various PSOX settings?
12:48:03 <AnMaster> or will it be passed from the outside?
12:48:08 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, the former
12:48:32 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, how can you set up the settings from inside before you set up the protocol :P
12:48:59 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, I'm assuming that the program is capable of outputting one character for true and one for false
12:49:22 <Sgeo_> So the first thing the program does is output what it will use to represent false, then what it will use to represent true
12:49:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, what about languages that can only output whole lines?
12:49:48 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, the PSOX interpreter will be able to see the first and second characters of lines
12:50:03 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, okay what about intercal-72. iirc it can't do text IO. You are stuck with I II III IV V VI and so on
12:50:42 <Sgeo_> Well, I could be false and V could be true
12:50:58 <Sgeo_> But from there, where could it go?
12:50:59 <AnMaster> "Hello world cannot be implemented in INTERCAL-72 since the language lacks a facility for text output. Only "butchered" Roman numerals can be printed.[2]"
12:51:29 <AnMaster> C-INTERCAL can do byte IO, so can CLC (though a completely different method)
12:51:52 <Sgeo_> So that's 4 major sections: Output of Numbers, Output of Strings, Input of Numbers, Input of Strings
12:52:02 <ais523> C- and CLC- each have compatibility modes to use the other's IO rules, though
12:52:09 <Sgeo_> Some of which may be optional, including both Input sections
12:52:33 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you must support intercal-72 ;P
12:52:49 <AnMaster> ais523, what does wikipedia mean with '"butchered" Roman numerals' I wonder?
12:52:50 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, I'm trying to figure out the best way to do that
12:53:02 <ais523> AnMaster: no, they're extended to go beyond the normal range
12:53:05 <ais523> using lowercase as well as overlines
12:53:27 <Sgeo_> I don't see how the PSOX2 interpreter should be expected to natively understand Roman Numerals
12:53:41 <Sgeo_> Without special casing everything for just one language's benefit
12:53:47 <Sgeo_> Although that would be kind of interesting
12:53:54 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean like after IVX<whatever, forgot order of L and C>M it turns into something else?
12:54:13 <AnMaster> wait, aren't there three between X and M?
12:54:47 <Sgeo_> Are there languages besides INTERCAL-72 that would want Roman Numeral output?
12:54:54 <ais523> the same letters with bars over, then the same letters in lowercase
12:55:03 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL
12:55:07 <ais523> well, that should be a line over rather than a backslash before
12:55:31 <ais523> Sgeo_: my advice is, recognise /patterns/
12:55:33 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, well, you can do byte IO but you would have to write the printf("%d", ...) equiv yourself
12:55:45 <AnMaster> ais523, did you see my haskell pun above?
12:55:48 <ais523> if the input says something 3 times and something else twice, that can be meaningful to psox
12:56:37 <ais523> basically, you take input as binary, but what the individual bits are represented as is determined by looking at your input
12:56:37 <Sgeo_> So, for starters, True and False wouldn't be limited to one character?
12:57:01 <Sgeo_> But that question was based on a misunderstanding
12:57:37 <Sgeo_> Question: Please put False once, and True twice:
12:57:52 <Sgeo_> I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing you meant
12:59:10 <Sgeo_> Taken to some sort of extreme, would this allow HQ9+ support?
13:02:09 <Sgeo_> Now, how would I go about asking questions about Strings? Would I ask, say, "Use numbers to represent characters, or use characters directly?"
13:02:52 <ais523> you could have a flag to set whether strings were being taken literally, or in binary
13:03:29 <Sgeo_> literally, or numbers for each character, or binary?
13:04:15 <Sgeo_> BTW, the very first question is whether or not to use PSOX 2.1 features
13:04:45 <Sgeo_> This way, if PSOX 2.1 comes out, the opening.. stuff can mostly be changed
13:06:17 <Sgeo_> Actually, I might not need "Enter as binary" for strings, since I could have an option for numbers entered as binary
13:07:33 <Sgeo_> How do I separate the result from asking What is False and What is True from the rest of the questions' answers?
13:07:38 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you want bool before asking for numbers
13:08:37 <Sgeo_> Yes, and I don't see how to separate bool from version and numbers
13:08:54 <Sgeo_> I mean, I can't really ask for separator, can I?
13:09:05 <Sgeo_> Unless I make the assumption that separator is one character
13:09:22 <Sgeo_> Even then, I'm not sure if I can do that
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13:11:20 * Sgeo_ vaguely wonders how alise will react to all this
13:11:55 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't INTERCAL-72 do one number per line?
13:12:02 <ais523> AnMaster: one number per two lines
13:12:08 <ais523> beause it needs an extra line to draw the overbars
13:12:35 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, remember that when deciding to support intercal-72 ;P
13:12:47 <Sgeo_> So Newline is not good to be assumed to be separator
13:12:57 <ais523> don't assume anything separator
13:13:02 <ais523> just look at the sequence of bytes for repeats
13:13:14 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, impossible.
13:13:38 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you could have a separate definition file containing the required stuff
13:13:54 <Sgeo_> ais523, but it's possible that what a program wants to use for True repeats in a way that looks like separation between True and False
13:14:27 <ais523> Sgeo_: yes, I was wondering about that; presumably it's an unsolvable problem in general
13:14:29 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, no way you can get more flexible than that
13:14:55 <ais523> but you could require, say, three trues, two falses, two trues, that needs a pretty perverse string to be recognised incorrectly
13:15:20 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, of course the equivalent can be done for languages like erlang, haskell and so on. Not sure about python
13:15:26 <AnMaster> lisp is probably _the_ easiest one
13:16:47 <AnMaster> well, shell wouldn't be too complicated either. Just messy.
13:16:47 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, I don't want to do that. I want all the information to be contained in the program
13:17:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, then what ais523 suggested seems like a good idea
13:18:36 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, idea: do what ais523 said to set up the basics. Then provide a way for the program to feed you a new parser function over this protocol, in case they want to switch to something less cumbersome (for them) but which can't be expressed the normal way.
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13:19:46 <Sgeo_> Does the parser need to be TC?
13:20:32 * Sgeo_ wonders what role, if any, PSOX.EZ could play
13:21:16 <ais523> it probably /should/ be TC, so esolangs which aren't TC could use PSOX to add TCness
13:21:18 <ais523> just like it adds OS calls
13:21:19 <Sgeo_> If it's possible, but annoying, given the defaults, to use PSOX, then it would be possible for the new parser to just be fed to a regular function
13:21:32 <Sgeo_> ais523, that's the point of PSOX.EZ
13:21:33 <AnMaster> ais523, through using the parser? Genius!
13:22:13 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, it is much more esoteric if you do it through using a custom parser function
13:24:19 <Sgeo_> Seriously, I'd have no clue how that would work out
13:25:23 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what is the best way to refer to a haskell function? As in make it clear when talking about it on irc that you mean a function. Like you would say "strlen()" or such when wanting to make clear you mean a C function, or length/1 to make it clear in the context of Erlang code.
13:25:34 <AnMaster> I can't see any obvious such way for haskell
13:26:16 <Sgeo_> putStrLn :: String -> IO ()
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13:26:35 <Sgeo_> Actually, I think there is a convention
13:26:38 <Sgeo_> Not sure what it is
13:26:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In what kind of situation would you need to disambiguate?
13:28:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, even even could be good to disambig in some situations
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13:28:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you see, you got all confused by it :P
13:29:08 <Sgeo_> AnMaster++... oh wait
13:29:11 <Deewiant> Because I asked about a situation and got a function back :-P
13:29:38 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, tried to increment, but this is Haskell
13:30:04 <Deewiant> Well, one that always works is "the foo function" where you can even quote it (`foo`) if you want
13:30:09 <AnMaster> hm you can't define postfix functions/operators in haskell right?
13:30:11 <Deewiant> But I guess you wanted something shorter... dunno
13:31:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh btw, I guess from now on, not breaking even should be called spanning odd
13:36:42 <Sgeo_> Maybe I don't _want_ all TCness to be in the parser
13:36:51 <Sgeo_> I mean, that's kind of insane
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13:37:56 <Sgeo_> Ideally, PSOX.EZ-lite with an appropriate header should be fully turing-complete and I/O capable
13:38:28 <Sgeo_> If literally read into the PSOX2 intepreter
13:41:30 <Sgeo_> ais523, would regex be sufficient for parsing most languages?
13:41:46 <ais523> the vast majority of languages can't be parsed with a regex, in fact
13:41:56 <Sgeo_> erm, the output, I meant
13:41:57 <ais523> even ones like Python with a deliberately simple syntax
13:42:22 <Sgeo_> As a custom parser providable by the program for PSOX2
13:42:32 <Sgeo_> Although PSOX.EZ might be better
13:43:58 <AnMaster> ais523, can regex be parsed with regex?
13:44:11 <ais523> no, it allows nested parens
13:44:30 <AnMaster> ais523, could a regex with non-nesting parens self-parse?
13:44:50 <ais523> again no, unless it was incredibly simple
13:45:20 * Sgeo_ needs to determine how PSOX2 should handle varargs
13:45:26 <ais523> AnMaster: think about backslashes, and escaping them
13:45:39 <Sgeo_> I want a PSOX.EZ function that can call PSOX functions
13:45:46 <Zuu> ais523: that is perfectly recognizable by a regular expression
13:46:10 <ais523> Zuu: yes, but not one without parens that's the same length as what it's recognising
13:46:11 <AnMaster> ais523, could PCRE self-parse? After all it allows recursive matching of nested parens
13:46:26 <AnMaster> that is PCRE without cheating by escaping to "native" code
13:46:56 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, just take a list of arguments instead
13:47:04 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, like io:format/2 in erlang
13:47:24 <Sgeo_> Well, then I need to figure out how to represent a list
13:47:27 <AnMaster> io:format("format string", [list,of,parameters,for,format,string]).
13:47:48 <Sgeo_> I was thinking of asking for a function ender, but a list separator and terminator might be better
13:49:03 <Sgeo_> Asking for separators is troublesome. Should I ask for a string, and whether or not it's to be taken literally? Can I provide the option for the terminator to depend on the.. wait, n/m
13:49:22 <Sgeo_> numbers and strings have their own terminators
13:49:38 <Sgeo_> But I still need to terminate the list somehow
13:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, how does INTERCAL-72 output 0?
13:56:21 <ais523> an overline with nothing beneath it
14:00:49 * Sgeo_ decides that there will be no PSOX.EZ-lite. Just PSOX-lite.
14:01:00 <Sgeo_> No reason not to include other PSOX functions in the language
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14:04:46 <AnMaster> zipWith zipWith zipWith3 zipWith3 zipWith4 zipWith5 zipWith6 zipWith7
14:04:57 <AnMaster> hm that seems somewhat annoying
14:05:53 <AnMaster> ais523, why do haskell not have some zipWithN that takes a list of lists and a function that takes a list of values?
14:06:15 <AnMaster> and why are there two "zipWith" listed there?
14:11:52 <Sgeo_> Is this a decent model for PSOX.EZ: The program calls an ez.edit function, that edits the function on a certain slot
14:12:13 <Sgeo_> Then it calls other .ez functions that add to the editied function's code
14:12:20 <Sgeo_> Then calls, say, ez.done or something
14:13:13 <ais523> Sgeo_: you're reaching almost zzo38 levels of lack of context there...
14:14:00 <Sgeo_> Well, by slot, I'm thinking an array of stored .. ezfunctions
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14:37:43 <Sgeo_> ais523, for numbers processing, if the program says it wants to define its own digits, and PSOX asks for it to do True say, 16 times for base 16, then False, then for each digit, True for each character in the digit, then False, then the digit, is that reasonable?
14:38:11 <ais523> binary > unary for that sort of thing
14:39:04 <AnMaster> hm how does one find docs on a function in Prelude or Data.List or whatever? Anything like erl -man <name of module to bring up man page on> for haskell?
14:39:05 <Sgeo_> Although.. how many digits will be in the binary?
14:39:23 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a search engine for that sort of thing on haskell.org
14:39:49 <ais523> Sgeo_: there are ways to code it
14:39:56 <ais523> look up binary-coded-ternary, and base fibonacci
14:40:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm far from always online when I'm practising programming. Atm I'm outside with laptop connected over 3G to bouncer at home
14:40:27 <AnMaster> local docs would be preferred due to cost and such
14:42:34 <Sgeo_> ais523, the only information on the former that I see is some.. optical thing?
14:42:48 -!- ais523 has left (?).
14:43:18 <Sgeo_> I think I irritated him
14:47:44 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, Yeah probably you rather than me. Since you asked em a lot more questions than what I did
14:52:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: zipWithN is ([a] -> [b]) -> [[a]] -> [[b]], which is not as useful since lists' elements have to have the same type
14:53:28 <Deewiant> As for offline docs, I have a bookmark to ~/.cabal/share/doc/index.html (if that doesn't exist there's /usr/share/doc/ghc but that won't have user-installed stuff if you ever install such)
14:53:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm. It seems when looking at stuff that "tail recursion except it uses cons" is fairly popular in haskell code. From this I presume haskell somehow optimises this into tail recursion?
14:54:19 <Deewiant> Lists are lazy data structures
14:54:31 <Deewiant> (a : b) doesn't have to evaluate a or b
14:54:32 <AnMaster> I remember reading that tail recursion + cons is possible to optimise though
14:54:40 <Deewiant> And if you request a, it isn't necessary to evaluate b
14:55:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but if you want to evaluate the whole thing you will end up evaluating it all anyway
14:55:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so there the laziness won't help
14:55:20 <Deewiant> Yes, you will, but often the list doesn't need to be created
14:55:34 <Deewiant> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Short_cut_fusion
14:55:59 <Deewiant> http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/papers/stream-fusion.pdf
14:56:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example: show (map (\x -> x*x) [1..100000000])
14:56:42 <AnMaster> not sure if map is tail recursive or not
14:57:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it can, but does ghc/ghci do that?
14:58:04 <AnMaster> hm... You could in theory optimise a lot of bloated C++ into very efficient code. But no compiler is smart enough for it.
14:58:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, couldn't lazy evaluation cause problems sometimes. Like with that "Fibonacci that is smart and count upwards instead of downwards"?
14:59:28 <Deewiant> Don't know what you're talking about re. Fibonacci, but yes, lazy evaluation is not a panacea
14:59:48 <Deewiant> http://paczesiowa.blogspot.com/2010/03/generalized-zipwithn.html defines a general zipWithN
15:01:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you know the usual "dumb" fib implementation (base cases left out for brevity)? fib n = fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) ?
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15:01:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then there is the variant implementation that starts from the base cases and counts upwards to n
15:01:59 <AnMaster> which is O(n) instead of O(n^2) iirc. At least for other languages than haskell
15:02:46 <AnMaster> I don't remember the exact form of it
15:03:35 <Ilari> Isn't there way to calculate fibbonacci series in time (if integer operations are assumed to be O(1)) of O(log n)?
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15:07:05 <AnMaster> basically it counts upwards and remember the values of n-1 and n-2 (memoising basically)
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15:09:41 <AnMaster> oh btw is there a way in haskell do make a function like: f :: [Int] | [Char] -> ...
15:10:19 <AnMaster> that is, one that can take a finite number of alternative different types. Probably handling them by two different pattern matches
15:10:57 <AnMaster> this is something that would be trivial in erlang. But of course since it is dynamically typed that is quite a different situation
15:11:04 <Sgeo_> data SomeType = I [Int] | C [Char]
15:11:11 <Deewiant> f :: Either [Int] [Char] -> ...
15:11:17 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, well, somewhat bulky but could work
15:11:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah, I haven't learned about Either yet. Interesting
15:12:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could you have Either (a,b) (a,b,c) (a,b,c,d) and so on?
15:12:25 <Deewiant> data Either a b = Left a | Right b
15:13:24 <Deewiant> Of course you can nest Eithers but you soon get to the point where it's a better idea to just write a custom data type :-P
15:13:56 <AnMaster> That is another troubling thing. How do you declare an "infinite" type. Like Integer. Lets say I want a type that contains all powers of two. 1,2,4,8,16 and so on
15:14:16 <fizzie> There's a simplish identity "fib(2n) = f(n+1)^2 - fib(n-1)^2", that sounds like it should make it possible to get fib(n) in O(log n) time since you can basically divide n by two with that.
15:14:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's dependent typing, which Haskell doesn't have.
15:14:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh. So how is the type Integer declared?
15:15:14 <Deewiant> data Integer = S# Int# | J# Int# ByteArray#
15:15:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or what about this: A non-empty-list of non-empty lists. Even erlang's "optional" type system can represent that
15:15:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that looks like it is abusing internal stuff
15:16:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that looks like a tuple
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15:16:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but I want to specialise the list type to a type only containing non-empty ones. I can't see any good reason why it would be impossible. :/
15:17:03 <Deewiant> Again, that's dependent typing.
15:17:40 <Deewiant> You can't change the fact that list is declared as [a] = [] | a:[a] (or it would be, if it weren't built-in syntax)
15:19:03 <AnMaster> also the syntax for "these two parameters are the same" seems to require guards in haskell, in erlang you just do foo(A,A), which would only match if the second A matches the first A
15:19:28 <AnMaster> sure, can be done with guards, but somewhat more verbose syntax
15:19:29 <Deewiant> Yes, Miranda had that too, but Haskell doesn't for some reason.
15:19:38 <Deewiant> It rarely matters in practice.
15:22:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are there any simple rules of thumb for exactly when haskell's lazyness will cause issues? I mean, with something like lisp or erlang the rule goes like "use tail recursion if you will be working on non-trivial sized lists". For haskell the rules seems a lot more complex...
15:23:24 <Deewiant> Be lazy if it makes sense to observe only part of the output
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15:24:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for a general library function like those in Data.List it could be very hard to know.
15:25:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well consider map. The user could decide to require it all or just up until some point. And if it isn't lazy you can't map over infinite lists.
15:25:50 <Deewiant> There are cases where it makes sense, so map should be lazy.
15:26:15 <Deewiant> The compiler can strictify stuff where necessary, but not lazify.
15:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is tail recursion with an accumulator lazy? I presume it isn't
15:27:35 <AnMaster> in erlang you often append at the start of the accumulator in your tail recursive function, then have a lists:reverse call in your base case. (Which is implemented in the virtual machine itself, thus is more efficient)
15:28:05 <AnMaster> but I can't see how that would be possible to make lazy. Or rather, possible to make lazy without having an extremely smart compiler
15:28:32 <Deewiant> reverse isn't lazy, because it has to traverse the whole list before giving any output.
15:29:00 <Deewiant> The parameter isn't evaluated until it gets to the reverse.
15:29:08 <Deewiant> (And until the reverse is evaluated.)
15:30:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does ghc optimise ++ in a recursive function? After all the compiler could see you kept appending to the end, and updating in place would not be visible anywhere before returning, thus generating code that appended to the end in place and kept a pointer to the current end all the time
15:30:24 <AnMaster> it is quite feasible to do this, question is if ghc does it
15:31:09 <AnMaster> pity, that would make trivial implementations of many list functions a lot faster.
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15:39:53 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: generally speaking, GHC does optimizations of that kind. But I don't know if it's smart enough to /always/ do it
15:40:19 <CakeProphet> this question is probably better answered by some of the pricks on #haskell. :)
15:43:04 <AnMaster> sigh... reasoning about strict code is a lot easier than lazy code
15:47:53 <Sgeo_> PSOX2 types: bools, literals, numbers, strings, lists
15:48:13 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, say the program is in HQ9+
15:48:35 <Sgeo_> And some function, maybe parser related, wants to know "Ok, how do you specify XYZ"
15:49:07 <Sgeo_> It would be annoying to use strings for that because presumably, for strings, you're already set up to use binary for each character
15:49:31 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, eh? How will you represent strings for INTERCAL-72 then?
15:49:52 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, for input it needs to take spelled out numbers in English
15:50:24 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, and output is roman numerals only
15:50:37 <Sgeo_> So instead, .. oh, let me answer that question
15:50:48 <Sgeo_> Input options and output options can be specified separately
15:51:11 <Sgeo_> I currently don't know what the input options will look like
15:52:06 <Sgeo_> Anyway, literals could be used for things like separators. Separate domain from function
15:52:47 <Sgeo_> So that, say, HQ9+ can say that a separator is h9h instead of having to spell out all the characters
15:57:52 * Sgeo_ wonders how safe it would be to use q
15:59:20 <AnMaster> depends on how soon you detect a repeating pattern
15:59:44 <AnMaster> it would need to be multi-line for INTERCAL-72 I think
16:00:23 <Sgeo_> Nothing wrong with multi-line
16:01:53 * Sgeo_ ponders adding symbol to the list of types
16:02:03 <Sgeo_> There would be a function that takes a literal and stores it somewhere
16:02:22 <Sgeo_> Then, a function that accepts a symbol would just wait for the .. thingy
16:02:26 <Sgeo_> Whatever the literal was
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16:03:40 <Sgeo_> Was the type system one of PSOX's big problems?
16:03:49 <Sgeo_> Because PSOX2's type system is ever expanding :/
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16:10:48 <pikhq> Sgeo_: The Brainfuck-side code should be reasonably simple.
16:12:03 <Sgeo_> I think it would be
16:15:06 <Sgeo_> Although this is not going to be BF-specific
16:15:15 <Sgeo_> I guess I shouldn't lose sight of BF though
16:15:36 <pikhq> Sgeo_: No, but what can be done easily in Brainfuck can be done easily in a very large number of esolangs.
16:15:58 <Sgeo_> I thought PSOX's flaw was that it was too BF-specific?
16:15:58 <pikhq> Hence, one can reasonably consider it a "lowest common denominator" of capability.
16:16:29 <Sgeo_> I think HQ9+ is my lowest common denominator
16:16:33 <pikhq> PSOX's flaw was that it was too darned hard to use outside of Brainfuck, and slightly less hard in Brainfuck.
16:17:09 <Sgeo_> How was it hard to use in BF?
16:17:20 <pikhq> ... The bignums! The bignums!
16:18:15 <Sgeo_> Those were mostly optional
16:18:30 <CakeProphet> so does any of this fit into calamari's OS idea?
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16:50:02 <AnMaster> when was windows 2000 released? IIRC the support for it finally ends tomorrow
16:50:34 <AnMaster> right, you can never know with microsoft
16:50:50 <AnMaster> wasn't windows 95 released in 96 or such?
16:50:52 <pikhq> Yes, really, it was obsoleted a year later.
16:50:59 <pikhq> No, just very late 95.
16:51:10 <pikhq> Some of the OSRs were in 96.
16:51:39 <pikhq> Don't recall the expansion, but these were versions of 95 with added features for OEM usage.
16:51:56 <pikhq> Featuring stuff like USB support and built-in IE.
16:53:25 <AnMaster> wasn't that windows 95 SE and such? Second Edition or something
16:53:57 <pikhq> They're analogous, but 98 SE was actually sold to the general market.
16:54:16 <pikhq> Anyways: from 95 to 2001, there was effectively a Windows release every year.
16:54:31 <pikhq> And then... Nothing until Vista.
16:55:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, you don't count the service packs?
16:55:50 <pikhq> Mmm, okay, we can count the service packs.
16:56:02 <pikhq> 64-bit skipped a service pack.
16:56:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, did it skip at the start or the end?
16:56:18 <pikhq> ... Oh wait. No, that's not it at all.
16:56:35 <pikhq> XP 64-bit was actually a marketed-as-XP version of Server 2003.
16:57:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, it *feels* like XP 32-bit. I used both.
16:57:15 <pikhq> Yes, Server 2003 didn't diverge massively.
16:57:18 <AnMaster> it has the security center and all that iirc
16:58:06 <pikhq> It probably had the XP version of various UI widgets rather than the Server one.
16:58:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, only difference is that it is sluggish after logging in on it virtualbox for about 20 seconds instead of about 2 minutes for 32-bit xp
16:59:03 <AnMaster> both had guest additions and such installed. Only difference I can remember is that the 32-bit one was home and Swedish and the 64-bit one was pro and English
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17:12:47 <fizzie> In addition to "Windows XP x64 edition" for amd64, there was also that "Windows XP 64-bit edition" for Itanium, which apparently existed in two versions (2002 and 2003), the former of which was based on the XP codebase, while the latter was Server 2003 -like.
17:13:55 <fizzie> I think MSDNAA or some other relatively similar Microsoft offering (perhaps a predecessor) included the "64-bit edition", and it was a clever ruse since it wasn't the x64 edition but instead the Itanium one, making it pretty useless for most folks.
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17:23:34 <AnMaster> hm the value encoding for hdparm -S is definitely esoteric
17:24:19 <AnMaster> for example: "255 is interpreted as 21 minutes plus 15 seconds" (and there is much more strange things like that for other values
17:24:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, I got the x86_64 one from MSDNAA
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17:37:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: Mhm. Well, this was quite a while ago, and it might not have been MSDNAA exactly.
17:37:24 <cpressey> Scanner encountered IMPOSSIBLE TOKEN today!
17:38:31 <cpressey> AnMaster: No thank you. I'm full.
17:38:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, so you gone completely insane then? XD
17:38:56 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ais523, why do haskell not have some zipWithN that takes a list of lists and a function that takes a list of values?
17:39:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think I already got a full answer to it
17:39:09 <oerjan> you can easily do it with a bit of transpose
17:39:53 <AnMaster> hm does haskell have any printf equiv?
17:40:27 <Sgeo_> It's some type that does weird things, I think
17:40:36 <Deewiant> forall r. (PrintfType r) => String -> r
17:40:54 <oerjan> !haskell Text.Printf.printf "%s: %d" "Like this" (42::Int)
17:41:00 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, also, how could you not have noticed that we're all insane?
17:41:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: the ::Int is necessary here to make sure it gets the right type. I think.
17:41:48 <AnMaster> the main reason format strings are more useful than manually concatenating strings IMO is that it makes i18n easier. Try translating strings like " of " out of context, could be different words in different phrases.
17:42:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, does it validate the format string at compile time?
17:42:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's a very clever type hack with type classes
17:43:03 <AnMaster> would be cool if the type depended on the format string somehow
17:43:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: The "21 minutes plus 15 seconds" isn't completely bonkers; it's just that in general it gives the time using units of 5 seconds (252*5 s = 21 min, 255*5 s = 21 min, 15 s), except that some values (241..251, 253 and 254) have special other meanings.
17:43:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right. Whatever that is exactly, haskell should add it
17:43:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: however the interpretation of the format string depends on the actual types passed
17:43:42 <Sgeo_> fizzie, you're an Esotericer. You are unable to determine bonkers from non-bonkers >.>
17:43:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think that would be highly nontrivial
17:43:51 <cpressey> Cherish your special other meanings.
17:43:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Ask alise about it, she knows.
17:43:58 <oerjan> so that it is still type safe
17:44:09 <fizzie> Esoterice is the best rice ever.
17:44:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, so you mean it ignores %d if it has a string, and instead puts a string there?
17:45:11 <Sgeo_> Going to watch some Futurama now
17:45:12 <oerjan> !haskell Text.Printf.printf "%d" "test"
17:45:14 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Printf.printf: bad argument
17:45:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: He means that if you say %d and give a float it'll error.
17:45:39 <Sgeo_> Runtime errors are not type-s.. well, not statically-type-safe?
17:45:42 <Deewiant> !haskell Text.printf.printf "%s %s" "one"
17:45:56 <Sgeo_> Wouldn't that be a function?
17:45:57 <oerjan> Sgeo_: indeed, but it's memory safe
17:46:21 <Sgeo_> !haskell Text.printf.printf "%s %s" "one"
17:46:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, large runtime error?
17:46:26 <Deewiant> I guess the type error is too long
17:47:01 <AnMaster> !haskell Text.printf.printf "%s %s" "one"
17:47:08 <Deewiant> !haskell Text.printf.printf "%s %s" "one" :: String
17:47:13 <fizzie> !haskell Text.printf.printf "%s %s" "one"
17:47:19 <Sgeo_> !haskell Text.printf.printf "%s %s" "one" :: String
17:47:22 <Deewiant> Er, that shouldn't be an error.
17:47:25 <AnMaster> it will end up on wrong client, not the one I'm on atm
17:47:35 <Deewiant> I can't type and everybody else is copy-pasting.
17:47:38 <Deewiant> !haskell Text.Printf.printf "%s %s" "one" :: String
17:47:39 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Printf.printf: argument list ended prematurely
17:47:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: I did notice the lowercasing, I just wanted to see the error. :p
17:47:55 <Deewiant> !haskell Text.Printf.printf "%s" "one" "two" :: String
17:47:56 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Printf.printf: formatting string ended prematurely
17:48:02 <fizzie> (Also I have no idea whether it's case-sensitive or not.)
17:48:22 <Sgeo_> Anways, back to Futurama for me!
17:48:48 <cpressey> !haskell Text.Printf.printf "%s %s" "one" "two"
17:49:08 <cpressey> (Sorry, I just needed closure on that.)
17:49:37 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Y'know, I always did like that s... ALL GLORY TO HYPNOTOAD
17:50:03 <oerjan> fizzie: haskell is very case sensitive, in fact lower and upper case identifiers are completely different namespaces (variables vs. constructors/types)
17:50:38 <cpressey> Yes, it's very, very sensitive about case. Touchy, even.
17:51:02 <cpressey> Once it completely stormed out on me when I accidentally used a lower-case 'g'.
17:51:20 <oerjan> !haskell Text.Printf.printf "%s %s" "one" "two" :: String -- printf doubles as sprintf too
17:52:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, yes it does have impressively large errors
17:52:31 <Deewiant> http://paczesiowa.blogspot.com/2010/07/two-dimensional-analog-literals-in.html
17:54:50 <cpressey> A bold attempt at lexical abuse, indeed.
17:55:46 <fizzie> "-- ghc for 4x4 rectangle needs 500 mb of memory (I don't have a machine capable of checking 5x5) --"
17:55:53 <fizzie> An entirely practical thing.
17:56:07 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed. It still caught the eye.
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18:03:23 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example: show (map (\x -> x*x) [1..100000000])
18:03:59 <oerjan> while ghc optimizes such things, it's based on special rules for builtin list functions like map iiuc
18:04:18 <oerjan> so it doesn't apply to functions you build directly using cons and tail recursion
18:04:33 <oerjan> unless you also add such a rule pragma for it
18:05:28 <oerjan> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.2/html/users_guide/rewrite-rules.html
18:06:44 <cpressey> Ah, Haskell, the PL/I of functional languages.
18:06:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm. Seems messy it can't detect it itself. I saw some paper discussing how to do it automatically for cons + tail recursion for scheme iirc
18:07:02 <AnMaster> cpressey, what do you mean by that?
18:07:03 <Deewiant> oerjan: It does execute that in O(1) even if you define your own map and enumFromTo.
18:07:26 <oerjan> Deewiant: well, that is laziness i guess.
18:07:32 <pikhq> I do love that you can write rewrite rules.
18:08:57 <AnMaster> also the list [0,2..] ... how is it represented internally? Some kind of special end-marker instead of [] ?
18:09:31 <cpressey> Over the weekend I wrote a Commodore 64 music interrupt routine -- not everything I want yet, but the basics are there (multiple voices, patterns, zero-duration events that make arbitrary changes to the SID registers...)
18:09:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: enumFromThen 0 2
18:09:49 <oerjan> !haskell take 10 $ enumFromThen 0 2
18:09:51 <EgoBot> [0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18]
18:11:10 <oerjan> enumFromThen is also one of the "good producers" in the url i linked above, so it may very well be optimized away (for builtin types)
18:11:21 <oerjan> well Int and Char, it says
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18:16:24 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oh btw is there a way in haskell do make a function like: f :: [Int] | [Char] -> ...
18:16:53 <oerjan> you can also make a class method for it
18:17:42 <oerjan> class MyF a where { f :: [a] -> ... }; instance MyF Int where ...; instance MyF Char where ...
18:19:04 <oerjan> enumFromThen is also a class method btw
18:19:12 <oerjan> !haskell :t enumFromThen
18:19:13 <EgoBot> enumFromThen :: (Enum a) => a -> a -> [a]
18:19:45 <AnMaster> I haven't got to typeclasses yet in this book. I think it is next chapter
18:20:02 <fizzie> cpressey: How coincidental; I instead wrote an Impulse Tracker module player stub (x86-32 Linux, /dev/dsp audio, <2kB of code) for a friend who needed one; it also doesn't do all the strange .it format stuff, but it does the basics: sample playback with linear interpolation, portamento/pitch-slide/vibrato/volume-slide/speed-control effects, panning, things like that.
18:21:06 <AnMaster> real world haskell. Of those free online resources that others recommended in this channel it was the only one I found were all of comprehensible, non-silly, not extremely boring
18:21:23 <AnMaster> I think it was ehird who recommended that one
18:22:01 <oerjan> <fizzie> There's a simplish identity "fib(2n) = f(n+1)^2 - fib(n-1)^2", that sounds like it should make it possible to get fib(n) in O(log n) time since you can basically divide n by two with that.
18:22:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I noticed some typos. Like mixing up which filename it used for a file one paragraph above or such
18:22:46 <oerjan> that probably breaks down with odd numbers. there's a more complicated version that gives you both fib(2n) and fib(2n+1) though
18:23:20 <AnMaster> you know, scheme seems to have (help 'foo), python have similar online help. Erlang at least have easily accessible man pages for each module. But haskell seems to require me to open a web browser to get reference docs
18:23:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Submit errata if it's not already been submitted
18:23:26 <oerjan> based on multiplying matrices [fib(n) fib(n+1); 0 fib(n)] or something like that
18:23:32 <fizzie> oerjan: But note that if you get fib(2n) easily, you can also get fib(2n+2) (since it's just fib(2(n+1))), and then from fib(2n) and fib(2n+2) you get fib(2n+1) with just one subtraction.
18:23:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it was mentioned in a comment on that paragraph
18:24:27 <oerjan> maybe it works then. anyway see you.
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18:24:47 <fizzie> (Then you again have the three consecutive fibs, and could proceed with duplications as long as it's necessary.)
18:26:03 <fizzie> 1. fib, story, tale, tarradiddle, taradiddle -- (a trivial lie; "he told a fib about eating his spinach"; "how can I stop my child from telling stories?") -- heh, tarradiddle.
18:26:33 <AnMaster> :info foldl' saying "foldl' :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a" is far less helpful than something containing some sort of parameter names
18:26:54 <AnMaster> this takes longer to read if you need to check order of the parameters in the lambda
18:27:05 <AnMaster> "hm which one is a, *eyes jump around in the line*"
18:33:44 <Deewiant> If it gave you parameter names you'd get "foldl' f z xs"
18:35:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, argh... mathematicians ;)
18:35:44 <Deewiant> My Haskell tends to look like that too, since it's obvious from the type what they mean ;-P
18:36:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would like docs like: foldl' (\acc element -> acc') acc0 [list] -> final_acc
18:37:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course I found figure it out from the type. But that meant having to read more of it, to see which one was a and which one was b
18:39:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and sometimes it might not be so clear. Something like isSuffixOf :: (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
18:40:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but you know what ` is here? A dead key. And I use it as that when writing occasionally, so turning it off isn't an option really. Which means that is slower to type
18:40:14 <AnMaster> and yes that one I remember, there are harder to remember cases however
18:40:30 <Deewiant> I know it's a dead key on the scandinavian layout
18:40:40 <AnMaster> btw how does something like: fromIntegral :: (Integral a, Num b) => a -> b work?
18:40:54 <Deewiant> And I recommend spending a key or getting a keyboard with more keys so you can have a non-dead version of ` :-P
18:41:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, second is not an option on a laptop
18:41:23 <Deewiant> fromIntegral = fromInteger . toInteger
18:41:48 <AnMaster> okay then, how does fromInteger work?
18:42:10 <Deewiant> class (Eq a, Show a) => Num a where ... fromInteger :: Num a => Integer -> a
18:42:45 <AnMaster> I guess that explains the seemingly magic breach of the type system
18:43:07 <Deewiant> Nothing is breached because of the (Integral a, Num b) constraint
18:43:17 <Deewiant> You can't do fromIntegral "foo" :: (Int,Int) :-P
18:44:33 <AnMaster> what about ord then (Data.Char)
18:45:36 <AnMaster> it isn't a Num or Integral according to :info
18:46:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so black magic at last. The lack of "this only works because it is special cased in runtime" stuff made me suspicious
18:46:39 <Deewiant> It doesn't have to be black magic
18:46:44 <Deewiant> It's just more performant that way
18:46:58 <Deewiant> E.g. your lookup table would work fine
18:47:19 <Deewiant> Like said, it's not performant :-P
18:47:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But also, ord = fromEnum.
18:47:37 <AnMaster> well, what is the size of Char?
18:47:53 <AnMaster> fromEnum :: (Enum a) => a -> Int
18:47:55 <Deewiant> !haskell (minBound,maxBound) :: (Char,Char)
18:48:13 <Deewiant> !haskell join (***) fromEnum (minBound,maxBound) :: (Char,Char)
18:48:16 <Deewiant> !haskell join (***) fromEnum ((minBound,maxBound) :: (Char,Char))
18:48:23 <Deewiant> Meh, it doesn't import things.
18:48:32 <Deewiant> !haskell Control.Monad.join (Control.Arrow.***) fromEnum ((minBound,maxBound) :: (Char,Char))
18:49:00 <cpressey> !haskell "foo" `isSuffixOf` "anyfoo"
18:49:25 <Deewiant> !haskell print $ Control.Monad.join (Control.Arrow.***) fromEnum ((minBound,maxBound) :: (Char,Char))
18:49:27 <cpressey> All I get from EgoBot are strange-looking PM's.
18:49:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Enum? is that like data Foo = A | B | C ?
18:49:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Read up on type classes before asking more of these questions :-P
18:50:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah right. I'm just at the stage where I start spotting various logic flaws in what I have learnt so far ;P
18:50:55 <Deewiant> !haskell (fromEnum (minBound :: Char), fromEnum (maxBound :: Char))
18:51:45 <Deewiant> !haskell "foo" `Data.List.isSuffixOf` "anyfoo"
18:52:12 <Deewiant> !haskell "foo" `List.isSuffixOf` "anyfoo"
18:54:55 <cpressey> !haskell List.IsSuffixOf "foo" "anyfoo"
18:55:14 <cpressey> !haskell List.isSuffixOf "foo" "anyfoo"
18:55:30 <cpressey> EgoBot's error messaging leaves a lot to be desired.
18:57:10 <AnMaster> huh, why can't lambdas have multiple "entry points" like normal functions
18:57:46 <Deewiant> Because pattern matching directly in definitions is just syntax sugar for case
18:58:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same goes for erlang if you ask the compiler to dump the stage just before it generates beam asm
18:58:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so that is not a good reason
18:58:56 <Deewiant> Well, er... because if you need that and case is too cumbersome, your lambda is so complicated that it should be a function anyway? :-P
18:59:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it just needed two cases. Hm does all top level functions in a haskell source file become visible outside?
19:00:19 <Deewiant> Unless you specify what is visible, yes
19:00:41 <AnMaster> useful in the case of a helper function being used by more than one top level function
19:02:20 <cpressey> Functions that are not to be exported must be written in invisible ink.
19:03:21 <AnMaster> cpressey, but I used all my invisible ink when coding in whitespace. I guess I need to buy more
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19:07:40 <AnMaster> why no 1-tupple? Sure it is pretty useless but it still seems strange to just have a hole in the valid range.
19:08:13 <Deewiant> Tuples are written (e1, ..., ek), and may be of arbitrary length k>=2.
19:08:28 <Deewiant> The unit expression () has type () (see Section 4.1.2). It is the only member of that type apart from _|_, and can be thought of as the "nullary tuple"
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19:09:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, That doesn't really answer my question though. It just confirms thagt there is no 1-tuple.
19:09:44 <Deewiant> It says that () isn't really a tuple.
19:10:00 <Deewiant> The trivial type is written as () and has kind *.
19:10:00 <cpressey> And 1-tuples ARE pretty useless.
19:10:04 <Deewiant> The tuple types are written as (,), (,,), and so on. Their kinds are *->*->*, *->*->*->*, and so on.
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19:10:34 <Deewiant> If you prefer, just do type Void = () and forget about ()'s existence ;-P
19:10:59 <AnMaster> I guess I haven't got to that yet
19:11:02 <cpressey> I've never seen a mathematician concern themselves with a 1-tuple.
19:16:15 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: a kind has to do with type parameters
19:17:21 <CakeProphet> I thought he was learning Haskell not math. :P
19:17:44 <Deewiant> In Haskell, [a] has kind * and [] has kind * -> *.
19:18:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> [] has kind * -> *. <-- why is that then?
19:21:16 <AnMaster> wait, does the lambdas to foldl and foldr have the acc/value parameters in different orders?
19:21:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it explains this strange bug I have been hitting for a while now
19:24:10 <AnMaster> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = [a]
19:24:16 <AnMaster> now I'm confronted with that instead
19:24:54 <cpressey> They would have been very useful in that interpreter I was writing!
19:25:01 <AnMaster> I want to know what I did wrong instead
19:25:30 <AnMaster> or rather, what sort of thing could cause it hm
19:25:38 <Deewiant> http://www.mail-archive.com/haskell-cafe@haskell.org/msg18345.html says why infinite types are a bad idea
19:26:03 <AnMaster> In the first argument of `foldr', namely `step'
19:26:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: (x:x) will cause that error, for example. (For any x.)
19:26:24 <AnMaster> where step val acc | f val = acc : val
19:27:49 <Deewiant> foldr :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
19:27:59 <Deewiant> So, step should have type a -> b -> b
19:28:01 <AnMaster> did I confuse the order of val and acc hm
19:28:43 <Deewiant> So assign 'val' the type 'a' and 'acc' the type 'b'
19:28:51 <cpressey> Deewiant: Thanks for the link. I think though, that's not really an argument against infinite types... that's an argument for not relying on a type checker which blithely allows them. If I could annotate the type with "infinite" or something, to indicate that I know what I'm getting into...
19:29:02 <Deewiant> 'acc : val' has the type of val
19:29:07 <cpressey> Ah, but I wasn't aware of "newtype" before.
19:30:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but it seems like first param must be element from list
19:30:07 <AnMaster> since a matches the type a there
19:30:39 <Deewiant> But your 'step' function has type [a] -> a -> [a]
19:30:45 <Deewiant> This does not match a -> b -> b
19:30:51 <Deewiant> Since you cannot unify b with both a and [a]
19:30:52 <AnMaster> and I'm building a list of [a] since I'm trying to implement takeWhile with foldr. It is one of the exercises mentioned in the book.
19:31:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it reported the error on the wrong line
19:31:43 <Deewiant> If you had put a type annotation on step it probably would have reported it there
19:31:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you do that inside a where?
19:36:13 <cpressey> Oh, so newtype is basically a type alias? This reminds me of Pascal!
19:36:24 <Deewiant> type is basically a type alias. ;-)
19:38:04 <cpressey> Er, right. A newtype is a, what word would work better - "synonym"? It has the same structure but has a distinct identity.
19:38:36 <AnMaster> so you need explicit conversion functions?
19:40:15 <cpressey> Actually, I can't see yet how newtype differs from data.
19:40:58 <Deewiant> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Newtype
19:41:24 <cpressey> Yeah, I read that, it wasn't very enlightening to me.
19:41:56 <Deewiant> newtypes have no overhead on top of what they wrap
19:42:14 <Deewiant> With data, you have the constructor
19:43:03 <cpressey> OK. That's more subtle than I was expecting.
19:43:46 <Deewiant> Even if the data is strict in its parameter, _|_ and Data _|_ are distinct, but _|_ and NewType _|_ are identical.
19:44:03 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18581 \ wunderbar_emporium
19:44:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you know what I meant though :P
19:44:38 <Deewiant> It's most likely GHC because you can import and define main and whatnot.
19:46:37 <AnMaster> the partially applied function thing seems fairly limited in that it is restricted to argument order
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19:47:36 <AnMaster> for something like isSuffixOf partially applying either the first or the second parameter would both be useful, in different situations
19:49:00 <cpressey> (\ x y -> isSuffixOf y x) "foo"
19:49:17 <cpressey> I'm sure there's ways to do that in "pointless" style -- yes, exactly
19:49:24 <Deewiant> !haskell ("foo" `isSuffixOf`) "foobar"
19:49:34 <Deewiant> !haskell ("foo" `List.isSuffixOf`) "foobar"
19:49:47 <Deewiant> !haskell (`List.isSuffixOf` "foobar") "bar"
19:52:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, more than two parameters might be more of an issue :P
19:53:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure, but why do partial application at all then. Just syntax sugar?
19:54:15 <Deewiant> Sort of, but also how all application works :-P
19:54:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does ghc optimise that in the generated code?
19:54:51 <AnMaster> so it ends up like a function taking multiple parameters again
19:54:54 <Deewiant> Yes, or things would be unbearably slow
19:57:35 <AnMaster> "As-patterns have a more practical use than simple readability: they can help us to share data instead of copying it. In our definition of noAsPattern, when we match (x:xs), we construct a new copy of it in the body of our function."
19:57:49 <AnMaster> seriously? ghc doesn't optimise that?
19:58:11 <AnMaster> for context, the code was: noAsPattern (x:xs) = (x:xs) : noAsPattern xs
19:58:20 <AnMaster> if ghc doesn't optimise that.... wtf
19:58:53 <AnMaster> ah a comment points out that is only true for ghc without -O or such
19:59:11 <Deewiant> I think it's bad practice to write something which is both less clear and suboptimal anyway :-P
19:59:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the comment also compares:
19:59:34 <AnMaster> foo (x:ys@(y:zs)) = ... foo ys ...
19:59:36 <AnMaster> foo (x:y:zs) = ... foo (y:zs) ...
19:59:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have to agree that the latter seems easier to read
20:00:22 <Deewiant> foo (x : ys@(y:zs)) is best IMO
20:00:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I find that harder to read
20:06:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... does . only work on functions with one parameter?
20:06:27 <Deewiant> All functions have only one parameter
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20:31:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well lets say an uncurried function then
20:32:10 <Deewiant> All functions have only one parameter
20:32:23 <Deewiant> If the parameter is of type (a,b,c,d) it's still one parameter.
20:33:26 <AnMaster> foldl . head :: [a -> b -> a] -> a -> [b] -> a
20:40:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: Latest news on the Descent 1 rendering front: I've manually crafted a "fireball" (it doesn't really look like realistic fire, but on the other hand neither does the game sprite) that the enemies could shoot, and it makes for a reasonably nice (if unrealistic and not at all fire-like; but again, it's not like it should be fire) splash effect if I use Blender's fluid-simulator to model how it could hit an enemy bot, but it takes quite a while to set sim
20:40:18 <fizzie> ulation domains and initial velocities and such properly (esp. since the movement should match pretty closely frame-by-frame what happens in the demo), and writing a script to set everything like that up based on the demo file sounds like far too much effort. I'm beginning to feel I'm wasting my time here (what, really?!).
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20:50:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm seq can only be implemented inside the runtime I suspect. Or would there be a way in pure haskell?
20:52:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, primitive meaning something implemented in the compiler itself?
20:52:48 <Deewiant> Meaning not definable in Haskell
20:53:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like a special form in lisp?
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21:09:48 <cpressey> Meaning, those things all languages have
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21:42:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, hm trying to think of such in C. I guess for, while and other keywords would count as those there
21:42:59 <AnMaster> possibly the stuff in stdarg.h too
21:43:37 <AnMaster> though actually I seem to remember a pure C implementation of that. What a mess
21:44:10 <AnMaster> cpressey, + can be implemented as a increment for finite types
21:44:36 <AnMaster> % could be implemented without that too. Just very inefficient
21:44:57 <AnMaster> of course the syntax doesn't allow you to name a function + or %
21:45:05 <AnMaster> but the same feature could be implemented
21:45:11 <Deewiant> Difference is that those are actually keywords; seq isn't
21:45:22 <cpressey> You could of course implement seq in Haskell too, just write a Haskell interpreter in Haskell
21:45:54 <Deewiant> That is, of course, not the same thing :-)
21:45:58 <fizzie> You can get a sort-of sizeof with a pointer-arithmetics-based macro, but it's messy and probably not quite identical.
21:46:23 <AnMaster> ah I seem to remember the gnu extension alignof can be done with pointer arithmetic
21:46:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, you would need to know the last member + the size of it I think
21:46:56 <Sgeo_> Dear Chrome: Please stop ignoring me. Love, Sgeo
21:47:43 <AnMaster> hm is it possible to make a language entirely without special forms?
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21:48:08 <cpressey> Not if you want strings to have meanings
21:48:30 <cpressey> The language (0|1)* has no special forms, as such
21:48:34 <AnMaster> cpressey, do natural languages have special forms I wonder...
21:49:32 <fizzie> If you restrict yourself to sensible platforms and implementations, you can get the size of a type by taking "((type*)0)+1" and dumping that back to an integer; and conversely for declared variable "x" by simply (char*)(&x+1)-(char*)&x, but getting sizeof() of an arbitrary expression is going to be problematic.
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21:50:52 <AnMaster> so sizeof is not a special form except possibly for "macros evaluate more than once"
21:50:59 <AnMaster> which there is a gnu extension to avoid
21:52:12 <fizzie> Well, really, to get your macro implementation to do sizeof(1UL) properly is not exactly trivial. Possibly if you have the typeof() GNU extension, but that's a bit... cheatingy.
21:52:27 <fizzie> Then someone would just ask you to implement typeof() as a macro, and where would you be then?
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21:52:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, reducing one problem to another
21:53:07 <AnMaster> mathematicians do it all the time. So it must be okay
21:53:39 <Sgeo_> I think that's if you can solve what the problem was reduced to
21:54:11 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, nah it is used to prove that solving something else would solve that problem as well
21:54:26 <AnMaster> or for finding if some logic function is universal
21:54:29 <Deewiant> Just reduce two problems to each other and let the compiler figure it out
21:54:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could have typeof as a special form but not sizeof
21:54:51 <AnMaster> I don't see the issue with that
21:55:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just reduce your special forms to the minimal possible set
21:55:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then? C doesn't use that
21:56:17 <AnMaster> cpressey, I implemented abort() in C on an embedded platform. It calls _exit()
21:56:34 <cpressey> and _exit() is implemented in terms of abort()
21:56:40 <fizzie> #define sizeof(x) ({ typeof (x) _xxx; (size_t)((char *)(&x+1) - (char *)&x); }) /* disclaimer: untested, uses GNU extensions, breaks if _xxx has been #defined something strange, pointless anyway */
21:56:44 <AnMaster> cpressey, incorrect. _exit there calls the OS task manager
21:57:21 <AnMaster> cpressey, besides abort() on systems that have stuff like core dumps couldn't have _exit() implemented in terms of abort()
21:57:51 <AnMaster> cpressey, and there you could make abort() just do *0; or such (assuming that page was never mapped, like on linux)
21:58:49 <fizzie> abort() on a hosted (non-freestanding) C system -- well, C99 anyway -- is defined in terms of raise(SIGABRT), though.
21:59:31 <AnMaster> cpressey, that it is a special form, well or syntax. Is "let" a special form in haskell? I guess it is.
21:59:57 <cpressey> You can implement break with goto, if I'm not mistaken
22:00:17 <AnMaster> cpressey, requires you to add a label at the end though
22:00:20 <fizzie> You need to put some labels in, though; you can't just #define ...
22:00:32 <cpressey> I wonder if that matters or not.
22:00:47 <AnMaster> depends on how exactly you define special form
22:00:49 <cpressey> You can't #define anything at all in Haskell.
22:01:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The semantics of let can be duplicated with lambdas.
22:01:22 <fizzie> You could possibly do a set of macros for all break'able contexts that'd wrap the thing and a (user-supplied) label, and then require the break-macro to be provided with the label.
22:01:26 <AnMaster> cpressey, you could define a function, or not
22:01:29 <fizzie> You'd get multi-level breaks for free, even.
22:03:01 <fizzie> Could do the same for "continue", of course.
22:03:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that mess up the counter with continue; in for loops?
22:03:55 <fizzie> In fact, the C99 spec (6.8.6.2) defines "continue" in terms of a goto statement.
22:03:57 <AnMaster> you would need an extra line simulating that part of the for or while loop continue that is in the loop header
22:04:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can't see how that works in for loops
22:04:49 <Gregor-P> On a scale from one to ten, that's awesome.
22:04:57 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/cont.png
22:05:16 <AnMaster> took a while to load it and find the section
22:05:27 <fizzie> You could have just waited for the .png.
22:05:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't know it was forthcoming
22:06:24 <fizzie> They didn't do the same for "break", but of course there's the switch mess to consider.
22:07:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh yes but that works there too as jumping to a label after the switch
22:08:53 <fizzie> Sure, but it might look messy. Three columns is already a bit much.
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22:09:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, why side by side, I see no reason for that
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22:11:23 <fizzie> Note that continue shall appear "in *or as* a loop body", so instead of the usual "for (;;);" infiniloop you could confusingly write "for (;;) continue;" instead.
22:13:33 <fizzie> Makes one wonder how many loops there are with only a "break" or a "continue" as the body.
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22:19:35 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, do { break } while(0);
22:19:59 <fizzie> for (int temp = x(); do_something(temp); /* nice way to limit the scope of 'temp' */) break;
22:20:07 <AnMaster> #define break do { break } while(0)
22:20:20 <AnMaster> now people will be all confused
22:20:41 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, who cares about that
22:20:55 <Gregor-P> AnMaster: ... you could also #define break 0
22:21:16 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, gcc would warn about value that wasn't used iirc
22:21:21 <fizzie> Gregor-P: Yes, well, it *is* 2010 or something. Haven't you noticed all the flying cars outside?
22:21:58 <Gregor-P> fizzie: You can have your future!
22:22:51 <fizzie> Or "#define break ;" and then wait for some unsuspecting guy to start putting "break" after all his lines because it seems to work.
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22:25:22 <fizzie> They should add a generic "long long long ... long" bignum-ish type next; where each "long" would double the size. Why be afraid of being ridiculous?
22:25:34 <AnMaster> <Gregor-P> #define int signed char <-- but but... int is supposed to be 16 bit!?
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22:26:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Perhaps Gregor-P has big chars.
22:26:30 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, oh some DSP then no doubt
22:26:44 <AnMaster> though there it tends to be 32-bit
22:27:17 <fizzie> Oh, there are many 16-bit DSPs in the less-high-end range.
22:27:47 <fizzie> And many 24-bit ones too, though I don't know what their C implementations do.
22:28:09 <fizzie> Certainly you can fake 8-bit chars on architecture like that too.
22:32:54 <fizzie> Gregor-P: What about it, how big are your... chars?
22:35:00 <AnMaster> that sounded like innuendo. I blame the ...
22:46:20 <Gregor-P> fizzie: My chars are as big as they come ... and UNsigned.
22:47:13 <Gregor-P> fizzie: 8 bits, uncut ... I mean unsigned
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22:54:27 <oerjan> famous first and last words.
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22:55:31 <aliseiphone> ais523! Nice to see you at this time. Maintain that sleep schedule.
22:55:55 <ais523> aliseiphone: I've been awake for /well/ over 24 hours, being on call because there's a paper submission deadline coming up
22:56:10 <ais523> and I don't know what my supervisor's up to
22:56:41 <aliseiphone> Well, dammit, just make sure you're awake between 11 and midnight or so.
22:57:06 <aliseiphone> You could just sleep with your phone set to super-loud.
23:02:09 <Sgeo_> I'm working on PSOX2
23:02:49 <oerjan> <AnMaster> huh, why can't lambdas have multiple "entry points" like normal functions <-- a way to achieve that has been proposed in various forms, but never agreed on.
23:03:00 <ais523> aliseiphone: I don't have a mobile phone...
23:03:04 <ais523> we're contacting via email
23:03:29 <oerjan> aliseiphone: haskell question
23:03:41 <cpressey> ais523: write a svn commit hook that starts playing your least favourite mp3 at maximum volume
23:03:46 <oerjan> case of ... with nothing between case and of is one way i've seen suggested
23:04:11 <ais523> also, to go to sleep, I'd have to walk home
23:04:15 <ais523> which is not where my internet connection is
23:04:28 <ais523> aliseiphone: I /parted the channel earlier because both AnMaster and Sgeo were asking insane questions at once
23:04:50 <oerjan> aliseiphone: he said he thought the book (real world haskell) he's reading was your suggestion, so it's all your own fault ;D
23:04:51 <ais523> insane questions are OK
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23:05:12 <cpressey> ais523: What have you done with my CHEESE???
23:05:16 <aliseiphone> ais523: At least Sgeo is harmlessly utterly and completely reliant on our opinions for every minor detail in his life.
23:05:36 <aliseiphone> AnMaster, on the other hand, is liquid pain.
23:05:53 <Sgeo_> Eh, I think my questions were a bit painful
23:06:01 <Sgeo_> In my defense, the Googles did nothing
23:06:22 <aliseiphone> oerjan: I suggested a LYAH/RWH cocktail like I always do. He proceeded to dismiss LYAH because it had silly cartoon pictures.
23:06:59 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, oh, btw, thank you for suggesting Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agencyt
23:07:05 <aliseiphone> And AnMaster is a SERIOUS, MANLY ENGINEER with CHEST HAIRS.
23:07:59 <Sgeo_> ...read? Were you thinking I thought you suggested it as a paperweight?
23:08:18 <oerjan> welcome to accidentally cause humanity to have never existed. possibly.
23:09:46 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, unrelated, but I have learned first-hand how Java destroys brains
23:11:02 <ais523> C# is just a slightly more insane version of Java
23:11:05 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, I'd argue that it doesn't, and even if it does, it's not as bas
23:11:13 <ais523> (Java's main insanity is being too /excessively/ sane for its own good)
23:11:19 <aliseiphone> ais523: With some useful stuff. Like closures.
23:11:32 <ais523> C# is a very kitchen-sinky sort of language
23:11:39 <ais523> it reminds me vaguely of MAGENTA
23:11:43 <aliseiphone> ais523: Also, *Java 7. They're not versioning 1.x now.
23:11:43 <augur> aliseiphone: ah yes, true
23:11:46 <ais523> of course, many of those features are useful, probably all of them
23:11:58 <aliseiphone> Sgeo_: Guess why you think C# doesn't destroy minds?
23:12:01 <ais523> but, they still lead to a jankily large language when they're all combined
23:12:43 <aliseiphone> Because it's taking nibbles already. You're overengineering even more from what I've seen.
23:12:43 <oerjan> <Deewiant> If you prefer, just do type Void = () and forget about ()'s existence ;-P
23:13:02 <oerjan> except Void usually means something else in haskell (the type with _no_ non-bottom members)
23:13:22 <aliseiphone> Sheesh. Some people need slapping with unadorned C and being told to do something without making a sprawling framework for doing so first.
23:13:25 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, what exactly have you seen?
23:13:51 <aliseiphone> Sgeo_: How do you expect me to answer that question?
23:14:12 <ais523> oerjan: I think a type like that should exist in other langs too
23:14:17 <ais523> to mean "this function never terminates normally"
23:14:20 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, if I had any public projects since PSOX, those projects would be the answer. But I don't. So what have you seen?
23:14:23 <aliseiphone> oerjan: I take it AnMaster has been picking at irrelevant details of Haskell?
23:14:26 <ais523> you could actually enforce nonreturning in the type system
23:14:34 <ais523> by making a type that was impossible to construct an instance of
23:15:03 <oerjan> aliseiphone: well yeah. but then we all do, in principle. we are geeks after all.
23:15:06 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> And AnMaster is a SERIOUS, MANLY ENGINEER with CHEST HAIRS. <-- uh... Thanks?
23:15:23 <Sgeo_> I think this project is underengineered
23:15:26 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I can't see how it is one. Meh
23:15:31 <Sgeo_> I should have had parts be in Lua from the getgo
23:15:41 <aliseiphone> oerjan: AnMaster has a wonderfully irritating way of doing so, however.
23:16:13 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, perhaps you don't like chest hairs? I do have them. Not my fault. Genetics and so on.
23:16:33 <oerjan> aliseiphone: he _did_ seem in the logs to ask a lot of questions only because he tried to understand function types but hadn't got to typeclasses yet
23:16:51 <Sgeo_> And yes, parts being in Lua would have been very useful. The ability to change ..gameplay code, nto sure if that's the right term.. while it's running would have been immensely useful
23:17:30 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, anyways, worst part about PSOX: BF-centrism, or type issues, or something else
23:17:38 <aliseiphone> oerjan: dammit I learned from freaking YAHT and I kept writing shit until it worked. kids these days.
23:18:00 <Sgeo_> why are you in this channel?
23:18:08 <aliseiphone> And your inability to engineer without under- or over-ing it?
23:18:13 * oerjan cannot actually recall how he learned haskell. except that at some time he read most of the haskell report.
23:18:30 <aliseiphone> Sgeo_: I only enjoy /interesting/ pointless things.
23:18:47 <Sgeo_> Is writing an HQ9+ IRC bot interersting enough?
23:18:49 <cpressey> I think I'm with aliseiphone on the PSOX issue: it's not as cool as something that just pipes a bunch of different esoprograms together, and they just use each other's capabilities as they see fit.
23:18:59 <oerjan> aliseiphone: hey Ook! is interesting. once.
23:19:33 <ais523> Ook! is useful for getting people to realise that syntax really is irrelevant
23:19:38 <ais523> lots of people get fixated on it for some reason
23:19:39 <oerjan> aliseiphone: it's interesting as the first and only time you try doing that kind of obfuscation.
23:19:54 <aliseiphone> ais523: I think that might have the opposite effect.
23:19:56 <Sgeo_> cpressey, idea for PSOX2: Multiple programs in different esolangs running
23:20:36 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Yes, exactly, but then you don't really need to define a protocol, do you?
23:20:54 <Sgeo_> cpressey, why wouldn't I need to?
23:21:22 <aliseiphone> The teacher has /vetoed the nurses/ and made sure I can have it (without Internet). For homework.
23:21:43 <oerjan> <AnMaster> why no 1-tupple? Sure it is pretty useless but it still seems strange to just have a hole in the valid range.
23:22:19 <aliseiphone> I just need a 3G stick and I've been /handed a working, Internet-connected computer/ that I *don't even need to hide*.
23:22:21 <olsner> but a 1-tuple is just a single value, it barely even adds bottoms
23:22:45 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:22:45 <ais523> aliseiphone: ooh, impressive
23:22:49 <oerjan> a 1-tuple only makes sense if there is something you can do to tuples in general. but haskell doesn't support that, all sizes are mutually incompatible. although there _are_ some typeclass abuses, they are not in the standard.
23:23:03 <ais523> you may want to hide the 3G stick, though, in case they catch on
23:23:20 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Because if you write both the client and the server, you don't need to follow a protocol. I mean, you *can*, if you want one or the other to be interchangeable, but in a world where everyone wants to roll their own...
23:23:32 <aliseiphone> ais523: And getting used to 463mhz and 64mib of ram will suck.
23:23:45 <Sgeo_> Why would I be writing the client?
23:23:55 <aliseiphone> ais523: I'll put Puppy Linux or something onto a partition.
23:24:02 <Sgeo_> Sure, I'll write some test clients, but mostly other people will be writing clients
23:24:23 <aliseiphone> But still, dammit, I can type! Code! For this short portion of night...
23:24:40 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Explain what I mean to Sgeo_.
23:24:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm does <AnMaster> actually ping you? i keep just copying and pasting from the logs for convenience but it may not be optimal
23:25:01 <cpressey> No, nm, you don't have a real keyboard, that's unfair or me.
23:25:11 <aliseiphone> Sgeo_: He's telling you to make esolang programs talk to each other.
23:25:39 <aliseiphone> If you need a GUI, have a Zetaplex program to display it based on data provided to it by BF.
23:26:02 <aliseiphone> Essentially, drop PSOX and make an orgy of two-way esoteric pipes.
23:27:07 <Sgeo_> Hm, that would be interesting
23:27:14 <cpressey> Consider a utility that just ties the stdin and stdout of several processes together into some common channels. One of those processes could be a Befunge-98 interpreter which supports one of those graphics fingerprints, and it's running a program which accepts commands of some sort on its stdin and draws graphics. One other of those processes could be an Unlambda interpreter which is running a program which produces ou
23:27:42 <oerjan> <AnMaster> wait, does the lambdas to foldl and foldr have the acc/value parameters in different orders?
23:27:52 <cpressey> tput which consists of those commands. End result: Unlambda drawing graphics.
23:28:40 <cpressey> Now, the utility itself could have some esoteric control language. However, I wonder if that would be going too far. I think it might be nice to have one, but it should be simple.
23:28:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes that still confuses me
23:28:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's quite logical when you realize foldl f x [a,b,c] = ((x `f` a) `f` b) `f` c and foldr f x [a,b,c] = a `f` (b `f` (c `f` x))
23:29:09 <Sgeo_> Well, if it's a simple chain.. wait, two-way communication would be useful, wouldn't it
23:29:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, Hm I guess that does makes kind of sense
23:29:35 <aliseiphone> Sgeo_: All you need to write is a useful two-pipe unix utility.
23:29:50 * Sgeo_ doesn't want it to be UNIX-only
23:29:54 <Sgeo_> But there may be no choice
23:30:17 <olsner> pretty sure you can do stuff like that in windows too, it's just a lot weirder
23:30:46 <Sgeo_> olsner, I would have loved to know that during the original PSOX's implementation
23:30:57 <Sgeo_> My inability to figure it out resulted in a major spec change
23:31:28 <cpressey> Just abstract the properties of pipes that you want and write different backends if you want to support different underlying OSes.
23:31:45 <aliseiphone> ais523: Any tips for enduring ultra-low-powered computers?
23:32:04 <ais523> try to use more efficient programs
23:32:24 <AnMaster> cpressey, so a bus for esolangs. Nice idea.
23:32:26 <ais523> it's surprising how wasteful many programs are nowadays
23:32:56 <ais523> I find Windows almost unusuable nowadays just because of how slow it is
23:33:08 <ais523> there are efficient web browsers
23:33:25 <ais523> really, the speed of your computer shouldn't matter for surfing, the speed of your connection matters more
23:33:37 <aliseiphone> ais523: Supporting all the crap you need (I know you don't) nowadays?
23:33:38 <AnMaster> I bet aliseiphone consider that important
23:34:25 <aliseiphone> ais523: I mean... 64 MiB of RAM. Firefox never uses less than 100!
23:34:27 <olsner> Sgeo_: dunno about PSOX, but this looks like the thing you'd want on windows: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms682499(VS.85).aspx
23:34:31 <ais523> it's important to be able to run JS, but having it off by default generally makes websites less annoying
23:34:45 <ais523> you could try using w3m, I suppose
23:35:01 <ais523> it can even handle images, it shows them as links which download and open the image in a new window
23:35:07 <cpressey> I just explode in a frenzy of love every time I read the word LPVOID.
23:35:21 <ais523> but there are plenty of other low-resource browsers
23:35:22 <olsner> opera runs on many things with less than 64MB ram
23:35:30 <oerjan> <cpressey> Er, right. A newtype is a, what word would work better - "synonym"? It has the same structure but has a distinct identity.
23:35:36 <ais523> and rendering is rarely a bottleneck IIRC
23:35:38 <olsner> and with cpu:s slower than 450MHz
23:35:39 <Sgeo_> olsner, great, so how does the parent know when the child's requesting something on stdin?
23:35:46 <aliseiphone> btw, w3m can show images online on framebuffer
23:35:51 <ais523> (Chrome has the fastest renderer of all the common browsers IIRC, not that most people tend to care)
23:35:53 <oerjan> bad wording, since "type" defined names are officially _called_ type synonyms in haskell
23:36:00 <cpressey> oerjan: Oh, do confuse me more.
23:36:00 <olsner> Sgeo_: you can't "request" something on standard input, you can only block or poll
23:36:11 <Sgeo_> olsner, I think you can on UNIX
23:36:16 <Sgeo_> Maybe I'm misremembering
23:36:36 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, opera mini runs on my phone. Not sure about RAM but it has 32 MB flash built in
23:36:37 <oerjan> cpressey: a newtype is sometimes called a "wrapper"
23:36:42 <ais523> incidentally, I installed a bunch of browsers for cross-browser testing
23:36:42 <AnMaster> RAM I guess around the same range or less
23:36:47 <cpressey> oerjan: It still does remind me of what you need to do in Pascal to make a linked list record.
23:36:50 <ais523> I had to uninstall Opera almost immediately because it was too anyoing
23:37:02 <ais523> whereas I can tolerate Chromium, although I dislike it
23:37:02 <olsner> AnMaster: mini should support down to 2MB of ram though :P
23:37:02 <wareya> I found another turing complete game
23:37:13 <wareya> but this one cheats because it has wires
23:37:20 <aliseiphone> DAMMIT RETARDS PHONES ARE NOT X86 LAPTOPS WITH MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEMS AND OPERA MINI ISN'T EVEN A REAL BROWSER
23:37:32 <AnMaster> <olsner> Sgeo_: you can't "request" something on standard input, you can only block or poll <-- you could select() for ability to write without blocking on *nix
23:37:46 <olsner> AnMaster: that's what I meant with poll though
23:37:49 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, I.. think that's what I meant
23:38:01 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, true. opera mini is J2ME
23:38:35 <olsner> well I was referring to the proper opera, mobile or desktop, or maybe one of the custom versions for devices
23:38:46 <AnMaster> why are you shouting about this
23:38:54 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, what is the issue with opera servers rendering it
23:39:00 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, bandwidth?
23:39:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:39:14 <aliseiphone> olsner: Opera on a 463 MHz Pentium II Celeron with 64 MiB of RAM?
23:39:15 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, it works fine on EDGE. Even faster on 3G
23:39:27 <ais523> is the DS web browser opera mini or opera mobile?
23:39:30 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: What is WRONG? For a desktop browser?
23:39:46 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I was just saying it was lightweight
23:39:47 <olsner> ais523: it would be "one of the custom versions"
23:40:00 <ais523> yes, but I mean which codebase is it vaguely based on?
23:40:07 <aliseiphone> Are you fucking retarded? It reformats pages. Compresses images. Won't serve to things that run on things other than mobiles.
23:40:09 <olsner> it's not a mini thing though, it actually renders stuff
23:40:29 <oerjan> <AnMaster> is !haskell ghc or ghci?
23:40:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: both, it tries ghci first
23:40:51 <AnMaster> <ais523> I had to uninstall Opera almost immediately because it was too anyoing <-- yes desktop version is way more annoying than the mini version for phones
23:40:53 <aliseiphone> My toaster toasts bread with barely any power. Why does your universal constructor take so long to make toasted bread?
23:41:18 <ais523> toasters use quite a lot of power...
23:41:18 * Sgeo_ compresses aliseiphone
23:41:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: this has the disadvantage of EgoBot giving _really_ crappy error messages for stuff that you intended to be sent to ghci
23:41:48 <EgoBot> fmap fmap fmap :: (Functor ((->) (a -> b)), Functor f1, Functor f) =>
23:41:58 <Sgeo_> wareya, what game?
23:42:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: since it then tries the ghc (well, full module compilation) instead and ends up reporting _that_ completely irrelevent error message
23:42:45 <oerjan> Gregor-P: in fact it would have been nice to have a separate command for _just_ trying with ghci
23:43:05 <aliseiphone> ais523: I wish I had my iPhone set up to function as a modem. Free unlimited Internet!
23:43:21 <ais523> !haskell :t \s.\m.\x.m(s x)
23:43:35 <ais523> !haskell :t \s m x->m(s x)
23:43:38 <EgoBot> \s m x->m(s x) :: (t -> t1) -> (t1 -> t2) -> t -> t2
23:43:38 <Sgeo_> It does occur to me that having turing-complete input-capable HQ9+ and .. some other languages would pretty much be Ook!ish
23:43:46 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, why can't your iphone do that?
23:43:51 <Gregor-P> oerjan: Meh meh meh your awesome bots are never awesome enough bleh bleh bleh I want more features blar
23:43:59 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, can't you do that easily on jailbroken ones anyway?
23:44:13 <ais523> it violates the phone contract IIRC
23:44:25 <ais523> as in, not Apple's contract, but AT&T's or O2's
23:44:25 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Because the networks don't allow it. My phone is not jailbroken at
23:44:57 <Gregor-P> Hell, the new EVO does that out of the box.
23:44:58 <aliseiphone> ais523: Hell, I don't care. Certainly not Apple's fault though.
23:45:14 <ais523> if they find out, you might lose your mobile access
23:45:24 <aliseiphone> Gregor-P: Hell, the iPhone PREDATED ALL THOSE.
23:45:35 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I checked several networks in Sweden. All allow tethering without extra cost but warns it won't work with iphone.
23:45:42 <aliseiphone> ais523: It'll look just like my usual traffic...
23:45:50 <Sgeo_> PESOIX predated PSOX
23:45:53 <wareya> 18:41 < Sgeo_> wareya, what game?
23:46:00 <ais523> if you start accessing repositories over it, though, they might get suspicious
23:46:01 <Gregor-P> oerjan: So long as we're on the same page.
23:46:13 <ais523> that would look out-of-place, who accesses linux repos on an iPhone?
23:46:27 <Sgeo_> ais523, I tried to access an SVN repo on my N1
23:46:28 <AnMaster> oh and I tethered today using my old nokia
23:46:44 <AnMaster> works fine in ubuntu if you install blueman
23:46:48 <ais523> aliseiphone: I know, it's the destination that's suspicious
23:47:11 <ais523> if I was asked to try to figure out which phones were being used illegally for tethering
23:47:13 <aliseiphone> ais523: Dude, deep packet inspection isn't even that clever.
23:47:17 <ais523> I'd check to see if they were accessing Windows Update
23:47:32 <ais523> which would be a big giveaway
23:47:32 <aliseiphone> Do you realise how many iPhone users there are?
23:47:45 <AnMaster> ais523, what about windows mobile?
23:47:49 <ais523> aliseiphone: I'm not sure how that's relevant
23:48:00 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably the update URL is at least slightly different
23:48:11 <aliseiphone> ais523: monitoring arbitrary deluged of packets is very hard
23:48:47 <ais523> hmm, I wonder to what extent mobile internet uses http?
23:48:57 <ais523> is it just straight uninterpreted tcp packets that contain the http
23:49:11 <ais523> or is there some sort of mobile internet protocol used between the phone and the control towers?
23:49:33 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, and nothing else =P
23:50:26 <aliseiphone> Sgeo_: I'm wearing a top hat and? (This is Jeopardy!, right?£
23:50:47 <Sgeo_> I was referring to lack of multitasking on pre-iOS4
23:51:45 <ais523> hmm, are there any sensible multitasking algos other than cooperative and competitive?
23:52:16 <ais523> programs pay for timeslices?
23:52:27 <ais523> *cooperative and preemptive
23:52:29 <aliseiphone> Processes buy up bits of system time with credits they get by... Doing work for the system?
23:52:33 <ais523> you can tell I've been up for around 30 hours
23:53:22 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, see ais523's correctio.. oh
23:53:48 <ais523> come to think of it, wouldn't "modulo spelling" remove all the spelling from the word, leaving only the mistakes?
23:53:55 <Sgeo_> I thought you were commenting on ais523's spelling, until I saw what you wrote
23:53:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I would totally love competitive multitasking
23:54:05 <Sgeo_> erm, what ais523 wrote
23:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, okay modulo mistakes then
23:54:44 <ais523> nah, preëmptive has an OS doing the preëmpting
23:54:55 <aliseiphone> ais523: Processes debate who deserves to run for a timeslice. The winner gets it.
23:54:57 <ais523> competitive multitasking would be along the lines of CoreWars
23:55:00 <oerjan> <AnMaster> cpressey, that it is a special form, well or syntax. Is "let" a special form in haskell? I guess it is.
23:55:07 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that would take several timeslices!
23:55:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:55:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: very special actually, it's one of the four haskell 98 keywords that introduce indentation blocks (let, do, where, of)
23:55:50 <oerjan> there are a few more in extensions (mdo comes to mind)
23:55:55 <aliseiphone> Special Needs multitasking: processes that do their work slowly get extra time.
23:55:55 <ais523> oerjan: haskell 2010 too
23:56:02 <ais523> I was reading the spec of that pretty recently
23:56:19 * ais523 hasn't finished it yet
23:56:31 <ais523> OTOH, I don't know haskell 98 well enough to spot any differences
23:57:06 <aliseiphone> ais523: oh dear, I just realised that aliseOS is very like Feather
23:57:16 <ais523> aliseiphone: almost all good ideas are very like Feather
23:57:51 <cpressey> In fact, the only good idea which is not very like Feather is one called "Feather"
23:57:58 <aliseiphone> it's impossible to explain what it is, is almost impossible to define precisely, hurts your mind when you think about it, and will probably never be implemented.
23:58:44 <ais523> aliseiphone: that's one of the best summaries of Feather I've ever seen
23:59:16 <AnMaster> ais523, please please put up everything about it on a wiki page if you decide to never implement it
23:59:21 <aliseiphone> ais523: And it doesn't even mention a single language feature!
23:59:21 <AnMaster> that way someone else could give it a go
23:59:38 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: ais523 would never do yhat to innocent minds
23:59:42 <ais523> AnMaster: deliberately driving people insane is illegal in the uK
23:59:52 <AnMaster> ais523, put a warning at the top then?
00:00:08 <aliseiphone> that's like mixing cyanide and heroin, dumping it in a public place
00:00:11 <ais523> it could turn into the programming equivalent of goatse
00:01:19 <ais523> still, I'm still convinced that Feather is consistent, somehow
00:01:20 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, add "FURTHER WARNING: MIGHT DRIVE YOU INSANE"
00:01:23 <ais523> and can be implemented
00:01:23 * Sgeo_ wants to learn Feather
00:01:29 <ais523> Sgeo_: so do I, and I invented it
00:01:37 <ais523> AnMaster: today is a /really/ bad day
00:01:45 <ais523> maybe I'll try on Thursday
00:01:46 <oerjan> aliseiphone: i thought that was essentially the name-giving comic for Cyanide and Happiness
00:02:00 <AnMaster> ais523, sometime within the next few years is OK for me
00:02:11 <ais523> WARNING: READING THIS SIGN IS A WASTE OF YOUR TIME
00:02:18 -!- aschueler has joined.
00:02:30 <ais523> aliseiphone: I thought cyanide /smelt/ like almonds
00:02:37 <ais523> discovering what it tastes like is quite difficult to do safely
00:02:57 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, or do you think that should be a WARNING
00:03:04 <ais523> but the almond smell is a good way to detect accidental cyanide leaks in chemical labs, that's why it's well known
00:03:25 <Sgeo_> NOTE: MAY CAUSE LACK OF NUTS
00:03:29 <cpressey> I'm worried about accidental almond paste leaks now
00:03:35 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, people can go nuts from it
00:03:46 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, so it doesn't contain nuts. It causes nuts
00:03:52 * Sgeo_ is just being random now
00:03:54 <ais523> cpressey: recently, there was a giant leak at a natural gas odorising factory
00:04:01 <ais523> which was responsible for adding the smell to natural gas
00:04:04 * Sgeo_ is on lack of sleep, for not as good a reason as ais523
00:04:11 <ais523> well, I say "recently" meaning "within the past decade or two"
00:04:17 <Sgeo_> Hopefully, I won't turn into those people who die due to not sleeping and just gaming
00:04:20 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Don't worry. Just look out for the smell of cyanide.
00:04:22 <ais523> because I tend to be less precise with language when lacking sleep
00:04:50 <AnMaster> ais523, you are sleep deprived? Why?
00:04:50 <aliseiphone> ais523: Recently -- I think matter had established itself by this point -- ...
00:04:53 <Sgeo_> I'm planning on locking myself out of Internet access from certain time to certain time
00:05:08 <ais523> AnMaster: trying to finish off an academic paper
00:05:17 <ais523> well, actually having finished it and the deadline expires in 56 minutes
00:05:28 <ais523> and yet I haven't heard from the person who's /meant/ to be submitting it
00:05:37 <AnMaster> ais523, send it in yourself then?
00:05:37 <ais523> and am staying up until the deadline in case something happens
00:05:47 <aliseiphone> So, I seem to be heading for the discharge. Hmm, that innuendo was unintentional.
00:06:00 <ais523> I'm not the primary author, and I didn't submit the abstract
00:06:22 <cpressey> Oh, all hell is loosing break on #esoteric today it seems.
00:06:23 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I wouldn't have noticed the innuendo if you hadn't mentioned it
00:06:32 <AnMaster> cpressey, why does it seem like that?
00:06:44 <Sgeo_> Wawait, discharge? As in freedom?
00:06:49 <cpressey> AnMaster: FLOWERS. PRETTY FLOWERS.
00:07:08 <aliseiphone> No, to a section of the local high school.
00:07:36 <ais523> cpressey: you don't want to see all hell loosing
00:07:36 <AnMaster> cpressey, What does your flowers make you feel like?
00:07:39 <ais523> a few minor imps is bad enough
00:07:44 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Oh, I thought you were talking about your phone battery.
00:07:55 <cpressey> aliseiphone: So is that... good-ish news?
00:08:18 <aliseiphone> I get to sleep at home and use a computer. So yes.
00:08:21 <cpressey> No, man. That's goinge one "innuendo" too far.
00:08:27 <ais523> aliseiphone: how does it feel to be thrown out of a mental institution for being insufficiently insane?
00:08:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, do you understand how "phone" "battery" is innuendo
00:09:32 <aliseiphone> Then "configure" your "wireless base station"
00:09:37 <AnMaster> that's just terrible as far as innuendo goes
00:10:02 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, at least you missed fizzie's epic fail at innuendo
00:10:26 <aliseiphone> ais523: btw, you're teaching CS at #esoteric U
00:10:36 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, search for this in logs: <fizzie> Gregor-P: What about it, how big are your... chars?
00:10:45 <cpressey> ais523: Are you doing this stint with or without the benefit of caffeine?
00:10:52 <aliseiphone> aka The #esoteric Institute for Higher Education
00:10:54 <ais523> I don't drink caffeine
00:11:04 <ais523> although I do eat chocolate on occasion, and some caffeine will have entered my body that way
00:11:29 <ais523> aliseiphone: if it doesn't collapse the same way eso-std.org did...
00:11:56 <Sgeo_> Wasn't eso-std.org alise's thing?
00:11:58 <aliseiphone> ais523: All we need is an organisation, a building and accreditation.
00:12:59 <ais523> Sgeo_: it was basically being run by alise and AnMaster, and you know how badly those two get on
00:13:08 <ais523> probably part of the cause of its collapse
00:13:22 <ais523> I thought he tried to submit funge-109 to it
00:13:32 <AnMaster> ais523, all I did was make some comments like "good idea" and some suggestions
00:13:41 <ais523> aliseiphone: I was involved in the running of the site, IIRC
00:13:41 <aliseiphone> cpressey: The standards were the least important part.
00:13:51 <ais523> but was impatient due to the lack of any actual standardisation going on
00:14:10 <ais523> the world does need an esoteric standards organisation
00:14:32 <ais523> for allowing portability in things like brainfuck, Befunge and INTERCAL
00:15:02 <aliseiphone> Anyway, pikhq will teach systems administration, pikhq and me can teach software engineering I guess, Gregor, pikhq, cpressey and me can teach language design
00:15:17 <Sgeo_> What do I teach? How to overengineer?
00:15:35 <ais523> aliseiphone: I could possibly beat anyone here at the enterprisey sort of software engineering, at least
00:15:40 <ais523> after all, I teach /Java/ for a living
00:15:52 <Gregor-P> wtf, why is the entire channel on PL :P
00:15:53 <cpressey> ais523: Please explain, and then justify, JNLP.
00:15:56 <aliseiphone> ais523: Which is why I didn't include you in that class. :P
00:15:56 <ais523> so I'm decent at enterprisey theory
00:16:21 <ais523> cpressey: JNLP is a way of running programs remotely over the internet with strict security checks
00:16:34 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and Gregor-P teaches music?
00:16:35 <ais523> the idea is that you can just load a JNLP program without user confirmation, because it can't do anything bad
00:16:42 <ais523> (I think this idea is somewhat dubious, btw)
00:16:57 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Ha, next you'll be suggesting degrees in English.
00:16:58 <ais523> it's meant to be a new and innovative way to distribute applications
00:17:11 <ais523> because the application isn't on your computer, but on the internet, it gets automatic updates, etc, for free
00:17:31 <cpressey> ais523: Thank you, that was actually informative.
00:17:41 <ais523> also, you can ask for more privs than the default if the application is signed; upon it being updated, it keeps those privs without re-prompting despite a potentialy completely different codebase
00:17:54 <ais523> at this point, I look at JNLP with extreme suspicion, even though I can see how it's useful
00:17:58 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Please explain, and then justify, FBBI.
00:18:30 <ais523> my main annoyance with JNLP, really, is that it's supposed to be the usual and #1 way to deploy Java programs
00:18:46 <ais523> and as a result, nobody's working on /sane/ ways to deploy them
00:19:02 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
00:19:11 <ais523> (incidentally, IE is the only browser I know of which actually opens JNLP links without confirmation; most other browsers at least prompt the user)
00:19:12 <cpressey> aliseiphone: FLOWERS. PRETTY FLOWERS.
00:19:25 <aliseiphone> oh, me and pikhq can teach operating systems :P
00:19:59 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Or, it is simply a crap reference implementation in the tradition of crap reference implementations.
00:20:02 <ais523> who's going to teach esolangs?
00:20:08 <aliseiphone> cpressey: PREPARE TO TEACH YOUR FIRST CLASS
00:20:18 <Gregor-W> At #esoteric University, the language design class IS the esolangs class.
00:21:00 <cpressey> aliseiphone: WAIT LET ME GET MY MALLET
00:21:07 <olsner> well, obviously, all students would be teaching their esolangs as well as getting taught other's
00:21:14 <ais523> mallets are the best way to design languages, clearly
00:21:17 <aliseiphone> oklopol can teach... whatever the fuck he wants to
00:21:20 <ais523> we also need... croquet hoops?
00:21:21 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and you shall be offered a chair tied to the condition you have to complete Feather in under 2 years
00:21:31 <AnMaster> or at least get a working implementation in that time
00:21:50 <ais523> zzo38 can set the exams
00:22:01 -!- coppro has joined.
00:22:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it is an awesome idea ais523 had there
00:22:44 <cpressey> Hey, all semester was stuff about lambdas and crap and all these exam questions are about Dungeons and Dragons, wtf?
00:22:57 <aliseiphone> "Some people like to do it this way, however some people like to do it the other way too. What is your opinion, how do you think will give the lowest memory usage?"
00:23:27 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I can be the headmaster or something
00:24:04 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, too late I told you :P
00:24:31 <ais523> does it need a physical location?
00:24:54 <olsner> finland is much closer, so I vote sweden
00:25:08 <ais523> I reckon Norway might be a good place
00:25:20 <ais523> we can get oerjan to teach pure mathematics
00:25:25 <ais523> as applied to esolangs
00:25:36 * Sgeo_ wants to learn pure math
00:25:42 <AnMaster> getting accredited in Sweden would be impossible. The only no-state owned accredited universities are those established ages ago.
00:25:49 <AnMaster> basically it is impossible for new ones
00:26:11 <AnMaster> so the old ones basically went in by grandfathering rules
00:26:47 <Zuu> AnMaster: I am your father!
00:27:01 <Zuu> *darth vader voice*
00:27:09 <aliseiphone> ais523: hmm... Every university has fast Internet; to one-up them, we clearly have to provide personal fibre optic for every student
00:27:24 <AnMaster> Zuu, with such a bad joke I can only presume you are oerjan in disguise
00:27:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null).
00:27:49 <Zuu> I dont need disguise, im Zuu!
00:28:41 <aliseiphone> ais523: you've been to Canada. Is it cool?
00:28:54 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, depends on the time of the year I expect
00:29:05 <ais523> aliseiphone: I've been only to central Ottawa, which I imagine differs somewhat from the other areas of Canada
00:29:14 <Zuu> AnMaster: dont remember seeing me before?
00:29:14 <ais523> being the centre of the capital, and all that
00:29:25 <AnMaster> Zuu, in here yes. That is the only place
00:29:27 <ais523> if you mean "cool" temperature-wise, it's comparable with the UK
00:29:54 <Zuu> AnMaster: you expected to see me in other places?
00:29:56 <ais523> in fact, it's rather comparable with the UK other ways, too; Ottawa isn't more different from London than, say, Birmingham
00:30:02 <Sgeo_> It's not on the same continent
00:30:12 <aliseiphone> Although military service at 18 kinda sucks :P
00:30:32 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:30:33 <ais523> aliseiphone: you're not going to manage me to persuade to emigrate just to take part in an insane project
00:30:51 <AnMaster> I can't be arsed to explain it
00:30:53 * Zuu patpats AnMaster :)
00:31:01 * Sgeo_ would not mind online courses
00:31:08 <ais523> Zuu: "mu" is an answer capable of causing the question it answers to not have been asked in the first place, apparently
00:31:11 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Clearly, the only reasonable choice is Antarctica.
00:31:21 <ais523> I think it was originally a metaphor, though, and AnMaster takes it literally
00:31:24 <olsner> http://www.hsv.se/kvalitet/kvalitetssakring/examenstillstand.4.539a949110f3d5914ec800063591.html looks like the thing you'd need to get in sweden
00:31:33 <ais523> aliseiphone: I was trying to explain the AnMaster meaning
00:31:33 <Zuu> ais523: interresting :P
00:31:43 -!- wareya has joined.
00:31:45 <ais523> in GEB, it's pretty clear that it's meant to unask the question
00:31:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I meant "the question is wrong"
00:32:15 <Zuu> i never ask the wrong question
00:32:24 * Sgeo_ can't move just to attend the best university
00:32:30 <AnMaster> it is neither true I expected it nor that I didn't expect it. I just have not even considered either
00:32:50 <AnMaster> <ais523> I think it was originally a metaphor, though, and AnMaster takes it literally <-- and I don't
00:33:05 <ais523> aliseiphone: I'd expect most popular maths books to contain mistakes
00:33:10 <ais523> except probably "maths made difficult"
00:33:15 <oerjan> aliseiphone: ok if zzo38 cannot do exams, what about teaching ui design?
00:33:20 <ais523> I should try to track down that book again, it's amazing
00:33:33 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, night
00:33:36 <AnMaster> <ais523> except probably "maths made difficult" <-- that exists?
00:33:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it's a brilliant book
00:33:57 <ais523> among other things, it contains the formula for solving cubic equations, multiplied out
00:34:04 <Sgeo_> My N1 keeps losing the wifi signal :(
00:34:20 <ais523> there's an element of parody in there
00:34:26 <ais523> but it's more a case of extreme pedantry
00:34:31 <coppro> what's this about aliseiphone being thrown out of something?
00:34:43 <AnMaster> ais523, but it is completely useless
00:34:53 <Zuu> coppro: iphones gets thrown out all the time :P
00:35:02 <ais523> no, I borrowed it and returned it
00:35:08 * oerjan is still laughing from aliseiphone's zzo38 exam impression
00:35:15 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds like a fun book anyway
00:35:17 <ais523> oerjan: I got told off here for laughing too loud
00:35:28 <aliseiphone> Calculus is really easy, actually! We just need to know the definition of a derivative of a function f over argument x: limit as h goes to 0 of f over x plus h minus f over x, divided by h. Now, the epsilon-delta definition of a limit...
00:35:37 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, okay let zzo38 do web design then!
00:36:12 <ais523> here's another random fact from maths made difficult: many people know the names of the operands to division (divisor and dividend) and multiplication (multiplier and multiplicand)
00:36:13 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, any more advanced courses?
00:36:20 <ais523> but addend and augend is less well known
00:36:28 <ais523> and I'd never heard of minuend and subtrahend before I read the book
00:36:42 <ais523> (I expect most people don't even know the word "augend")
00:36:45 <Sgeo_> aliseiphone, I don't need a course on introductory calculus
00:36:58 <AnMaster> ais523, since addition is symmetric, shouldn't both sides have the same name?
00:37:03 <cpressey> As in, "He can't tell his arse from his augend"
00:37:12 <ais523> otherwise, how could you tell them apart?
00:37:30 <ais523> = is symmetric, yet you can still meaningfully talk about the LHS and RHS
00:37:41 <ais523> it's naming parts of an expression by their syntactic positions
00:38:05 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
00:38:13 * oerjan knew subtrahend but not augend
00:38:45 <AnMaster> ais523, did you phone that person who should send it in?
00:38:48 <ais523> AnMaster: nothing I can do about it really but claim I was here
00:39:03 <ais523> and phone? I know his work number, but it's half past midnight and I doubt he's in his office
00:39:18 <Sgeo_> Maybe he's waiting in his office for you to call?
00:39:27 <Sgeo_> Just like you're waiting someplace insane for him?
00:39:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I check my email every other day
00:39:57 <ais523> emailing people in the middle of the night is more socially acceptable than phoning them then
00:40:10 * oerjan checks his email once a day
00:40:15 <Sgeo_> F*** social acceptability, there's a deadline!
00:41:01 <olsner> oerjan: good approach, I should do that
00:41:46 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:42:47 <AnMaster> ais523, again as Sgeo_ said phone em. Worth a try
00:43:01 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know their home phone number
00:43:20 <ais523> that makes no sense, the building isn't even open
00:43:40 <AnMaster> ais523, Or what if that person fell asleep there?
00:43:44 <ais523> in theory, but the security guards would get annoyed
00:43:53 <ais523> normally they sweep through the building around midnight and throw everyone out
00:43:58 <ais523> besides, I couldn't get there before the deadline
00:44:10 <AnMaster> ais523, couldn't you email him the paper?
00:44:27 <ais523> we both have a copy, it's in SVN
00:44:32 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe he sent it in anyway then?
00:44:34 <ais523> what I don't know is whether or not it's been submitted
00:44:39 <ais523> he probably has sent it in anyway
00:45:55 <oerjan> Gregor-W gets his kicks from yikesing at LICS
00:46:00 <ais523> the huge benefit of submitting to LICS is that there's no shame in being rejected
00:46:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:46:34 <ais523> is FireFly's quit message an oerjan reference?
00:46:44 <ais523> AnMaster: a conference, a relatively major one
00:46:47 <Gregor-W> I think it's a firefly reference.
00:46:50 <ais523> it gets loads of submissions
00:46:58 <ais523> and thus, many good ones get rejected
00:47:13 <Gregor-W> I think FireFly's quit message is a reference to fireflies :P
00:57:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:57:36 -!- augur has joined.
01:08:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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01:13:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
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01:18:26 * Sgeo_ considers joining Reddit Gold
01:19:44 <Gregor-W> Is that where you pay more to get even more shitty links?
01:20:29 <Sgeo_> It's where you pay more for a nice trophy and a private subreddit
01:20:38 <Sgeo_> Although you can just send in a postcard, which is what I want to do
01:22:49 <Gregor-W> Oh look, the Zune HD fecks up Unicode in ID3 tags.
01:23:04 <Gregor-W> It is a device which truly has no redeeming features.
01:23:39 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:24:15 <olsner> what does one do with a private reddit?
01:24:57 <olsner> that's what you have bookmarks for
01:25:17 <AnMaster> olsner, yes but there are always idiots out there
01:26:05 <AnMaster> olsner, and reddit contains a lot of them
01:26:18 <AnMaster> not sure about if they know about bookmarks
01:27:18 <Sgeo_> Well, I think I meant a reddit specifically for subscribers
01:28:51 <Gregor-W> So, a reddit where subscribers can post links about how they're so awesome.
01:30:55 <Gregor-W> (What with their being subscribers)
01:34:41 <pikhq> Presumably one has a private reddit so you can give messages to your future self
01:35:53 <Sgeo_> Apparently, there will also be features in the future
01:36:06 <Gregor-W> Oooooooh, you get access to hypotheticals!
01:36:58 <Gregor-W> But if they let all those hypotheticals into Reddit Gold, what'll be left for Reddit Platinum? Reddit Plutonium? Reddit Megaawesomum?
01:37:05 <pikhq> Gregor-W: At this point it's a Paypal button that comes with a trophy.
01:39:11 <Sgeo_> I'm not sending any money.. although I guess it does cost money to send a postcard
01:39:19 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: No route to host).
01:39:45 -!- coppro has joined.
01:39:51 <Gregor-W> I have NO idea how much a stamp costs nowadays, so replace "X cents" with the appropriate cost:
01:39:58 <Gregor-W> Sgeo_: That's still X cents you'll NEVER see again!
01:41:06 <pikhq> Gregor-W: 42, IIRC.
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02:18:06 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, remember when you compared apples and oranges? That inspired me to want oranges
02:19:11 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Oh, you actually compared apples and oranges? Good job.
02:21:55 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:24:13 <Sgeo_> "Whereas apples and oranges are both sweet, the sweetness of an orange is augmented by the tangy citrus flavor. Apples require no peeling, which can be an advantage, but segmented oranges are easier to eat once peeled. Both apples and oranges have a wide selection, but buyer beware! Certain breeds of apples are suitable only for baking. Overall I recommend oranges for those interested in adding fruit to their diet."
02:25:46 <olsner> someone needs to care for those whose parents never taught them to extract fruits from their casings
02:29:06 <pikhq> coppro: My spoon is too big!
02:29:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
02:36:18 <Sgeo_> Ugh, the dog decided to vomit as I was cooking dinner
02:46:35 <pikhq> Ugh, the Gregor decided to moo.
02:47:07 <Gregor> I should record a new WIPP of Mov. 2.
02:47:18 <Gregor> (Ignore all previous statements about me not recording new WIPPs or something)
02:48:03 <pikhq> HAIL THE OPI OF GREGOR
02:48:41 <pikhq> I SAID WHAT I MEAN
02:49:41 * Gregor proceeds to record said WIPP.
02:51:49 <pikhq> Go. Go forth and do your non-rock opera.
02:53:52 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:04:15 * Sgeo_ compares Gregor and non-musical cows.
03:11:22 <Gregor> "Earlier efforts to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell have failed, including a notable 2007 bill to end the policy that was filibustered by Sen. Ted Stevens (R-AK), who over the course of several days repeatedly screened the gay pornographic film Thrill Sergeant and demanded to know if his colleagues liked that sort of thing."
03:12:14 <pikhq> Methinks Ted Stevens likes penises.
03:12:45 <pikhq> Gregor: He's Republican.
03:12:47 <Gregor> He's a republican congressman.
03:12:50 <pikhq> He *probably* likes the cock.
03:12:51 <Gregor> So, statistically speaking.
03:13:04 <Gregor> pikhq: We were hilariously in-sync there :P
03:13:18 <Sgeo_> Does it like them from the tubes?
03:14:58 <Sgeo_> Gregor was charged with nonphysical pseudodeutoronomy
03:16:01 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:16:54 * Sgeo_ wonders if Gregor can do an Ami impression
03:17:10 -!- wareya has joined.
03:20:38 <Sgeo_> Attention users of unusual languages of machine instruction! Desist esoinstructioneering! Mainstreamification autonomicagents have been dispatched.
03:20:43 <Sgeo_> ^^Not a good impression
03:22:03 -!- aschueler has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:22:31 <AnMaster> tried jmIRC but was a pain on phone with keypad
03:22:31 <Sgeo_> Ami's master apparently approves, except for "autonomicagents" as one word
03:22:33 <pikhq> GESPRACHEN SIE DUR ESOINSTRUCTIONING. EINVOLKSENCRAFTENWAGENREICHENVOLK ALLES!
03:24:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:24:41 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, some it in another channel
03:25:03 -!- SevenInchBread has joined.
03:25:20 <Sgeo_> Although I guess you could call it she
03:26:22 <Sgeo_> After Gregor posted the Onion stuff into that channel:
03:26:23 <Sgeo_> <Ami> Wallabic elements, you are charged with nonphysical pseudodeuteronomy.
03:26:23 <Sgeo_> <Ami> Existence rationale has been depleted. Desist evasient behaviour and comply with all tenets of the prescribed protocol.
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03:28:56 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp9.ogg
03:29:11 <Gregor> Excuse the poor playing and then sudden stop at the end :P
03:34:45 <Gregor> But I'm still playing.
03:35:39 <pikhq> It's also a digital piano of reasonable quality. Which makes quite a difference.
03:55:36 <AnMaster> Gregor, will listen later. No headphones nearby
03:56:28 <AnMaster> they are hot in the summer though
03:56:36 <AnMaster> to use the Beyerdynamics DT150 or not...
03:56:43 <Gregor> Woooh, those are some HOT headphones!
03:57:42 * Sgeo_ has the headphones that came with his Nexus One
03:58:00 <Gregor> And earbuds are el bad.
03:58:14 <Gregor> OK, they're bad for me :P
03:58:18 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, completely different segment. Mine comes with a reproduction frequency spectrum in the manual
03:58:18 <Gregor> I don't have earbud-compliant ears.
03:58:38 <AnMaster> plus of course a parts list for ordering spare parts
03:58:45 <AnMaster> you can even order a single screw
03:58:46 * Sgeo_ gibbers in confusion
03:58:56 <AnMaster> and they are sturdy things too
03:59:16 <AnMaster> mostly user serviceable parts inside basically :D
03:59:41 <AnMaster> Gregor, okay hooking them up to my SB Live! 5.1
04:00:10 <AnMaster> (setf! sound-quality 'awesome)
04:00:19 <AnMaster> Gregor, happen to have a flac?
04:00:31 <AnMaster> Gregor, I don't think ogg would do these justice ;P
04:01:10 <AnMaster> Gregor, btw what headphones do you have?
04:01:43 <Gregor> Here in Washington? Shitty nobrand headphones :P
04:02:13 <Gregor> I have decent wrap-around noise-blocking headphones.
04:02:17 <Gregor> Don't recall the brand.
04:02:22 <AnMaster> my normal computer headphones have quite decent sound quality (and mic, so headset). Some creative ones iirc
04:03:55 * pikhq has some Sony circumaural headphones
04:04:13 <pikhq> Not exceptional, but pretty good.
04:04:19 <AnMaster> http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/hah/headphones-and-headsets/studio-and-stage/studio-headphones/dt-150.html
04:04:28 <pikhq> Good enough to be worth actually owning.
04:04:32 <AnMaster> "Wide frequency response (5 - 30.000 Hz)"
04:05:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, my Creative ones kind of quite good compared to most cheap ones I had before
04:05:44 <AnMaster> Gregor, in the flac at least there is a weird "jumping tracks of LP"-like effect around 03:09
04:05:48 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
04:05:53 <Gregor> AnMaster: Yeah, the recording went wonky.
04:06:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: The trick is to avoid the completely cheap shit.
04:06:04 <Gregor> It's not in the mid (duh), but the recording went wonky and i was too lazy to fix it.
04:06:21 <pikhq> After that, you're going to have headphones that are at *least* worth listening to.
04:06:33 * pikhq hateshatesHATES things like cheap earbuds
04:06:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, when your breaks, say the plastic headband or such. Can you order a replacement part for it?
04:07:07 <AnMaster> Gregor, went wonky about 04:14 again
04:07:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: No; they cost $20. I'll probably be going for somewhat expensive headphones in the future.
04:07:18 <Gregor> Yes, it's broken twice.
04:07:30 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with cheap earbuds?
04:07:43 <pikhq> They sound like shit.
04:07:46 <AnMaster> plus they NEVER STAY IN YOUR EAR
04:07:53 <pikhq> And they will break in two weeks.
04:07:59 <Sgeo_> I should note that they are the best sounding things that I have experienced
04:08:01 <Gregor> I have non-earbud-compliant ears.
04:08:10 <Sgeo_> Possibly because I haven't had .. earbuds, or whatever, before
04:08:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, that of my mobile phone stays in
04:08:33 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you never used non-shitty headphones then
04:08:36 <Sgeo_> The .. thingies came off
04:08:46 <pikhq> Sgeo_: You should get some decent headphones.
04:08:48 <Gregor> Sgeo_'s ears were earphone virgins.
04:08:58 <Gregor> Until he found the earbuds of his dream.
04:09:06 <Gregor> That first moment of earbud-ear penetration ...
04:09:16 <pikhq> Just get some circumaural ones; that's really about where they *start* getting good.
04:09:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, <Gregor> I have decent wrap-around noise-blocking headphones. <Gregor> Don't recall the brand. <-- how do they compare to my DT150 ?
04:09:28 <pikhq> (those are the ones with pads, and are rather large)
04:09:32 <Gregor> AnMaster: Probably not favorably.
04:09:40 <AnMaster> Gregor, in which direction? ;P
04:09:44 <Sgeo_> Can these expensive earphones be worn on busses safely?
04:10:06 <pikhq> Sgeo_: I didn't say "expensive". Mine are $20.
04:10:08 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, no. People will mug you.
04:10:27 <AnMaster> I don't think most gangsters know a pair of DT150 from some sony ones
04:10:43 <AnMaster> probably the Sony ones will look more designed and thus more expensive
04:10:58 <pikhq> The thing to avoid, actually, is Apple iEarbuds.
04:11:04 <AnMaster> my headphones look very very "look, the appearance was the LAST thing we cared about dude"
04:11:31 <pikhq> That screams "I HAVE MONEY! IN MY POCKET! RIGHT NOW! ALSO, TAKE THE ELECTRONICS! I HAVE MANY AND THEY ALL COST MORE THAN $500!"
04:11:45 <Sgeo_> Circumaurals aren't portable, apparently
04:11:47 <AnMaster> you actually expect to get mugged on a bus?
04:12:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not on a bus, no.
04:12:44 <pikhq> But on city streets, it's a possibility.
04:12:54 <Sgeo_> He wants me to not take out my phone on the bus, and said he was considering buying me a cheap mp3 player
04:13:03 <Sgeo_> Also, are trains and/or subways safe?
04:13:07 <AnMaster> hm I think my Creative are not circumaural
04:13:22 * Sgeo_ is clueless about outside crime ... things
04:13:44 <AnMaster> I'm clueless about US situation
04:13:50 <AnMaster> but here in Sweden that seems absurd
04:14:17 <AnMaster> I often travel on bus and lots of people on line 14 (station to university) use ipod nanos
04:14:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Our treatment of crime produces crime.
04:14:30 <AnMaster> a lot fewer on the country line I travel with
04:15:08 <pikhq> Petty criminal goes to prison. Prisons here are designed to be hellholes.
04:15:35 <pikhq> With a lot of hardened criminals interacting with random joe blow who got caught with a few ounces of pot.
04:16:00 <pikhq> So, the petty criminal goes out of prison. Now he's got a felony on his record.
04:16:06 <pikhq> And so he cannot find a job.
04:16:16 <pikhq> Congrats: we've got a new career criminal!
04:17:12 * Sgeo_ will be disconnecting from the Internet at midnight local
04:17:25 <pikhq> Yes, "cannot find a job".
04:17:47 <pikhq> Employeers are perfectly free to deny jobs to people who have previously committed a felony.
04:17:52 <pikhq> As such, all employeers do.
04:17:53 <Gregor> I think my hair might be getting TOO long.
04:18:07 <pikhq> Gregor: When did you last have it cut?
04:18:20 <Gregor> Cut as in trimmed, or cut as in properly cut?
04:18:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: When I first saw pictures of a Norwegian prison I was absolutely flabbergasted at how *humane* it was, BTW.
04:18:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, pix or it didn't happen!
04:18:50 <Gregor> pikhq: Trimmed, about three months. Cut, about eight years.
04:19:01 <Gregor> Pfffffine I'll take a picture :P
04:19:56 <Sgeo_> I wouldn't want to employ someone who, say, murdered someone
04:19:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Norway's got essentially *homes*. Set up on the assumption that people will actually be leaving!
04:20:11 <pikhq> Sgeo_: A murderer is not walking out.
04:20:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes it is called rehabilitation
04:20:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, not until after 20 years at least
04:20:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Wait, you guys actually do let murderers out?
04:21:13 <pikhq> The options for murder here are life in jail and frying.
04:21:16 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/me2010-07-12.jpeg
04:21:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, around here I think there need to be exceptional circumstances for anyone to be in prison for longer than 20 years. There will be some evaluation or such at that point iirc.
04:21:26 <Sgeo_> pikhq, I remember hearing "25 to life" somewhere
04:22:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, physiological evaluation of risk of committing murder again or such iirc
04:22:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but... Such an attitude is still somewhat shocking.
04:22:17 <coppro> here, the maximum sentence is life with no chance of parole for 25 years
04:22:26 <pikhq> It's a bit like hearing for the first time that I'm not the only geek in the world or something...
04:22:39 <Gregor> The problem isn't the length, it's the combination of the length with the fact that it's thick and wavy, so it's just a friggin' explosion of hair.
04:22:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, um. Even murders can repent and such you know
04:23:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: Straight-up not how the US penal system works is the thing.
04:23:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, fun. How far would it fall down in front of your face without a hat?
04:23:43 <Gregor> AnMaster: Wearing a hat does not affect the length of my hair ...
04:24:02 <AnMaster> Gregor, no but it prevents it falling down in front if you have long hair combed backwards
04:24:16 <Gregor> If you have pseudolong hair, then it might help.
04:24:20 <Gregor> If you have LONG hair, it makes no difference.
04:24:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, rehabilitation you know? Don't you have that term
04:24:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not generally applied, no.
04:24:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Our prison system is based around the concept of *punishment*.
04:24:54 <Gregor> AnMaster: If your bangs aren't long enough to put into a ponytail, then your hair is pseudolong at most.
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04:25:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, our I think is based on "a bit of punishment but also try to avoid having the people revisit the place"
04:25:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: You know jokes about prison rape?
04:26:02 <pikhq> *IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS*.
04:26:23 <pikhq> Some 21% of US prisoners report having been coerced into sexual activity.
04:26:43 <AnMaster> don't you keep male and female prisoners in separate prisons?
04:27:01 <Gregor> AnMaster: So closed minded, *tsk tsk*
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04:27:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, no I'm just surprised the percentage of homosexuals in prisons is that high
04:27:41 <Gregor> It's called conditional sexuality.
04:27:50 <Gregor> It's also called "any port in a storm"
04:27:51 <pikhq> Also, each prison is overcrowded.
04:27:56 <pikhq> Sometimes massively.
04:28:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is an issue here too.
04:28:18 <pikhq> California, for instance, has built capacity for 100,000 inmates, but has 170,000 inmates.
04:28:50 <AnMaster> I mean it sounds like larger than the whole capacity in Swedish prisons
04:29:11 <pikhq> That's *just* the state-run prisons, BTW.
04:29:16 <AnMaster> cut off the first two digits and you get a bit more than the Swedish population
04:29:33 <AnMaster> the first digit and you get a bit less
04:29:38 <Gregor> I was about to say, I don't think Sweden is anywhere near that underpopulated.
04:29:47 <pikhq> There's 2,304,115 inmates in the US.
04:30:17 <pikhq> Yes, there's more people in *prison* in the US than many countries have *citizens*.
04:30:27 <AnMaster> Gregor, there are fewer people on Iceland that in the county I live in :D
04:30:36 <pikhq> BTW, US population is 309,723,000.
04:30:37 <coppro> yeah, 2.3 million sounds small
04:30:44 <coppro> that would be an incarceration rate <1%
04:30:47 <Gregor> There are fewer people on Iceland than in the country I live in too.
04:31:17 <AnMaster> Gregor, well yes but the number is much closer for mine I bet
04:31:48 <coppro> maybe the incarceration rate is a lifetime thing though
04:31:51 <AnMaster> Gregor, also I can't see why you need a hair cut
04:32:06 <AnMaster> Gregor, if it goes past waist length, then yes
04:32:20 <AnMaster> Gregor, also you should get a beard
04:32:24 <AnMaster> that also goes to waist length
04:32:35 <pikhq> coppro: No, that's just a single point in time.
04:32:38 <Gregor> I can't grow facial hair.
04:32:47 <Gregor> See that photo? I haven't shaved in two weeks.
04:32:48 <AnMaster> Gregor, why not? what happens if you stop shaving?
04:33:02 <coppro> hmm... looks like I just misremember
04:33:07 <AnMaster> Gregor, must use a false beard!
04:33:11 <Gregor> AnMaster: At least I don't have to bring blades to my face every day :P
04:33:29 <AnMaster> Gregor, nor do I. I have a beard. Not a large one yet. But I plan to grow a huge one
04:33:50 <Gregor> I barely grow any other bodily hair either :P
04:34:06 <AnMaster> oh long hair on arms especially
04:34:12 * pikhq is furry. Not *a* furry, just furry as in possessing-fur.
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04:34:23 <Gregor> My arms are creepismooth :P
04:34:41 <pikhq> My feet look like a hobbit's. Except much larger.
04:34:47 <coppro> oh, that's another thing I don't like about the Conservatives
04:35:02 <coppro> they have an approach to crime that amounts do "Do what's provably failed in the US"
04:35:24 <coppro> and if anyone questions it, they just accuse them of supporting child porn
04:35:50 <pikhq> coppro: Triple incarceration times, make prison hell, and make it impossible to have gainful employment afterwards?
04:35:58 <Gregor> Are you mocking their tactics? Is it just because you don't want any laws that will keep you from your CHILD PORN?
04:36:07 <pikhq> Maybe after that we won't have 25% of the world prison population!
04:36:30 <pikhq> Also, privatize your prisons!
04:37:10 <pikhq> Gregor: ... Our prisons *are actually privatized*.
04:39:19 <coppro> admittedly, there is some issue
04:39:21 <Gregor> I don't think it's most.
04:39:25 <coppro> which is that we have carryover crime from the US
04:39:43 <pikhq> Gregor: State prisons are generally privatised.
04:39:50 <coppro> so the whole 'prisoners can be rehabilitated' approach isn't nearly as effective as it could be
04:40:07 <Gregor> The term "state prison" is incompatible with the notion of a privatized prison
04:40:28 <Gregor> "Private companies in the United States operate 264 correctional facilities, housing almost 99,000 adult offenders."
04:40:31 <Gregor> Barely half a percent.
04:40:32 <pikhq> Gregor: State as in "part of a state's penal system", not "run *by* a state".
04:40:40 <pikhq> Okay, foot in mouth.
04:40:43 <pikhq> It's still fucking retarded.
04:41:20 <Gregor> We should just find some island on the other side of the planet and put 'em all there.
04:41:46 <coppro> pikhq: I hope one of them is operated by Stanford
04:45:01 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Also, privatize your prisons!
04:45:26 <pikhq> Just another government contractor!
04:47:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: We also hire mercenaries.
04:48:01 <AnMaster> I mean it is an awesome concept in D&D to give you legal reasons to kick butt as a lawful without tying you too closely to a govt
04:48:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, you mean private security guards or such?
04:48:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, what the fuck do you mean then?
04:48:59 <pikhq> I mean we hire Xe Services to send employees to Iraq.
04:49:13 <pikhq> US State Department.
04:49:20 <Sgeo_> Previously known as Blackwater
04:49:56 <Sgeo_> Or uh, I may be mistaken
04:50:15 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide
04:50:31 <pikhq> We literally hire mercenaries.
04:52:12 <pikhq> "Currently in Iraq there are thought to be at least 100,000 contractors working directly for the United States Department of Defense."
04:53:17 <Sgeo_> I have a Nintendo DSi
04:53:21 <Sgeo_> At least in theory
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04:55:48 <Sgeo_> WHy would I do that?
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04:57:16 <Sgeo_> It does have a nice stylus
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05:16:41 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh seems I forgot to mention I loved that music
05:16:57 <AnMaster> apart from the annoying messing up of recording
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05:24:14 <Gregor> Man. That last part though. wtf am I thinking. I totally can't play that X-D
05:26:28 <AnMaster> Gregor, how did you do that then?
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05:26:40 <AnMaster> Gregor, plus I loved that part
05:27:02 <Gregor> I didn't, I was halting and slow and awful :P
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05:27:24 <AnMaster> 03:19 and forward a bit is just awesome
05:27:51 <AnMaster> and the ending is even more awesome, the abrupt ending is a bit jarring though
05:28:39 <AnMaster> Gregor, I like that high speed bit there, right after the "jump" in the recording
05:28:56 <Gregor> The abrupt ending is not an ending :P
05:29:03 <Gregor> It's just "OK I have nothing more here" :P
05:29:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, it is a dynamical promise of more ;P
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05:29:47 <Gregor> Note to self: Ctrl+W != Shift+W
05:30:29 <Gregor> _W_ell, it's certainly not done.
05:30:58 <Gregor> Besides, Opus 13 will be "Three Works in Three"
05:31:06 <Gregor> And I've only made WIPPs of two of them :P
05:31:31 <AnMaster> Gregor, do the fatelf bit first
05:31:48 <Gregor> ITYM do the VFS bit first
05:36:12 <Gregor> Too much stuff on my proverbial plate.
05:36:20 <Gregor> Too many proverbial balls in the equally-proverbial air.
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05:36:46 <Gregor> All I have to keep me sane is my brightly-colored neckties!
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05:37:35 <Gregor> Ohhey, I was wearing one in that pic :P
05:37:36 <AnMaster> Gregor, personally I hate neckties. They feel horrible
05:37:38 <Gregor> Like that one for example!
05:37:45 <Gregor> It's not about the feel, it's about the look!
05:38:02 <AnMaster> Gregor, but the feeling of it rubbing against your beard? horrible
05:38:09 <Gregor> I have no such issue :P
05:38:12 <pikhq> Gregor: So, would you say Opus 13 is an Opera?
05:38:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: What about the Opera Mario & Draco?
05:38:47 <Gregor> But nonetheless opus 13 is a single opus in three movements.
05:39:17 <pikhq> (it's an Uematsu piece. Therefore, it is awesome by default.)
05:39:48 <pikhq> (it's also the music to one of the best scenes of Final Fantasy 6. Therefore, it is awesome for reasons as well.)
05:39:51 <coppro> Uematsu is overrated in my opinion
05:40:12 <pikhq> coppro: You. Final Fantasy 7 main theme. Now.
05:40:28 * Gregor goes to listen to Totentanz by Liszt
05:40:28 <coppro> pikhq: I didn't say he's bad.
05:40:46 <Gregor> Actually I guess I should be listening to an opera to fit this conversation.
05:40:51 * Gregor goes to listen to Carmen.
05:40:53 <coppro> he's definitely up there
05:40:56 <pikhq> Overrated? Given that he is worshipped as a near-god, perhaps.
05:41:00 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: What about the Opera Mario & Draco? <-- never heard of it
05:41:11 <pikhq> Regardless of how good he is, he's a bit overrated for that. :P
05:41:55 <Gregor> AnMaster: He writes all the music for Square games.
05:42:16 <pikhq> Composer for all Square games from Final Fantasy I to Final Fantasy XI.
05:42:22 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh I never liked final fantasy music. Only played SNES ones though
05:42:33 <pikhq> Though he was one of 3 composers on FFX.
05:42:52 <AnMaster> I mean, it isn't bad as such. Just average
05:42:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Which ones?
05:43:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, which was the one with three statues?
05:43:12 <coppro> Uematsu's definitely on my list of favorite game composers. The other ones who's names I can remember include Kondo, Yokota, and Sakuraba.
05:43:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, and there was that one with spoony bard
05:43:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, also secret of mana, Liked that music better. wasn't that Square?
05:43:42 <AnMaster> still nothing better than average
05:44:14 <AnMaster> though yeah it isn't bad. but it isn't brilliant either
05:44:18 <pikhq> Listen to an orchestra performing it.
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05:44:59 <coppro> OoT music usually doesn't do a whole lot for me, actually
05:45:12 * pikhq tries to find a very good example
05:45:18 <coppro> there are a few pieces that do, but for the most part, I'd much rather listen to WW or TP
05:45:42 <AnMaster> <coppro> OoT music usually doesn't do a whole lot for me, actually <-- idea: write down the notes on paper, makes it easier to remember </misinterpreation>
05:46:09 <coppro> Twilight Princess, Wind Waker, Majora's Mask
05:46:10 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAzQERH7BjY The Opening for Final Fantasy 7.
05:46:30 <AnMaster> coppro, oh never liked MM very much. And the other ones are too new for me to ever have played then
05:46:54 <coppro> MM has some brilliant music
05:47:05 <AnMaster> nah didn't like that one AT ALL
05:47:28 <coppro> :( what is wrong with you
05:47:40 <pikhq> AnMaster has bad taste in music? I dunno.
05:47:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, listing to that one you linked now
05:48:28 <coppro> I wish someone were to do an orchestral treatment of Golden Sun
05:48:38 <Gregor> Hmmmm ... I'm less impressed by this than I was in the original MIDI treatment from the game :P
05:49:05 <coppro> the sound quality isn't exactly great
05:49:16 <pikhq> Argh, yeah, it's not a good recording...
05:49:26 <AnMaster> coppro, In fact I would call sound quality terrible
05:49:28 <AnMaster> opening is overly romantic IMO. Gets better a bit later on. (01:20 or so), still romantic but in a less annoying way. ~01:45 gets good.
05:49:34 <coppro> AnMaster: yes, I would agree
05:49:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Perhaps it would make more sense with the video.
05:50:14 <pikhq> It was the opening cutscene...
05:50:16 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvnot7pkvg
05:50:32 <pikhq> With the MIDI audio and everything.
05:51:09 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HpyOkKWpCM is fantastic; though you have to have it loud to catch everything
05:51:25 <AnMaster> coppro, no way I have these headphones loud. Ever.
05:51:39 <coppro> remove the headphones then
05:51:42 <AnMaster> <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvnot7pkvg <-- watching that now
05:51:55 <coppro> then listen to it quiet
05:52:28 <AnMaster> coppro, besides they have awesome sound reproduction though even at low volumes. Did you miss when I mentioned they were Beyerdymaics DT150 studio headphones
05:52:48 <AnMaster> <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvnot7pkvg <-- horrible sound quality still but better..
05:53:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, that's what you got from the Playstation.
05:53:55 <pikhq> Would you look at the size of that thing?
05:54:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, even n64 had better sound IMO
05:54:36 <pikhq> Final Fantasy 7 had... Interesting history.
05:55:05 <pikhq> It was designed around the N64 and then moved to the Playstation during development. Hence it has many of the limitations of both in its engine...
05:55:57 <coppro> ah, yes, the Square-Nintendo wars
05:57:33 <coppro> who composed Metroid Prime?
05:59:48 <AnMaster> <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HpyOkKWpCM is fantastic; though you have to have it loud to catch everything <-- that is quite nice. A bit too sweet for my taste though.
05:59:53 <coppro> some of those pieces are genius, like the credits and Pendrana drifts
05:59:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's Mario.
06:00:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, you think I can't see that? ;P
06:00:25 <coppro> the credits music from that game is also great
06:00:36 <coppro> too bad the second did not have quite the level of musical awesomeness as the first
06:00:43 <AnMaster> coppro, one of my absolute favourites is the last movement of Vivaldi's Summer
06:00:59 * pikhq has the Hymn of the Fayth stuck in his head again. Curses be unto FFX.
06:01:06 <coppro> pikhq: I've had it all week
06:01:12 <Gregor> Borodin's Nocturne from String Quartet #2
06:01:16 <Gregor> There is nothing better.
06:01:20 <AnMaster> coppro, another one is a symphony of J. M. Kraus in C# Minor.
06:01:24 <Gregor> It's the greatest piece of music ever written. PERIOD.
06:01:36 <AnMaster> coppro, contemporary with Mozart. Similar in style
06:01:41 <AnMaster> but IMO WAY better than Mozart
06:01:54 <pikhq> Gregor: The Hymn of the Fayth just has the notable property of being stuck in your head easily.
06:02:09 <pikhq> ... Okay, and sounding pretty good with an acapella choir.
06:02:35 <coppro> man, listening to Galaxy music again reminds me how awesome the musical integration was in that game
06:02:41 <AnMaster> coppro, then I love some of Gregor's music. And some experimental modern music. Let me find link to that one...
06:04:24 <AnMaster> coppro, FvbCV6E0Wro at youtube
06:05:52 <Gregor> http://erictheallen.com/audio/argylegargoyle.mp3
06:06:15 <Gregor> Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_fjjq0_VLs
06:06:37 <AnMaster> coppro, ooh found that music by J. M. Kraus: QbhA7NRZTZ0 at youtube. Second half (it compares how he reused it for a work in C Minor, so the C# Minor version is second, and much better!)
06:06:52 <AnMaster> coppro, listen to both variants though. Both are awesome
06:08:51 <AnMaster> <Gregor> Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_fjjq0_VLs <-- wtf is he playing
06:09:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, what is that thing on his head?
06:09:28 <AnMaster> Gregor, ... you know what I meant
06:09:49 <Gregor> That's not ON his head.
06:09:59 <Gregor> The melodica is a wind instrument, it's played through a tube.
06:10:23 <AnMaster> okay maybe it just merges with strange haircut
06:10:37 <Gregor> STRANGE SLASH AWESOME HAIRCUT
06:10:41 <AnMaster> there is a light band just above the tube
06:11:05 <Gregor> Uhh, now I have no idea what you're talking about
06:11:24 <fizzie> Geh; I put on these (el-cheapo sort-of-socialized-from-the-pile-reserved-for-the-DSP-course) headphones to hear what's supposed to happen in all your billions and billions of links, and the right earpiece just snapped off the headband part; your fault, that.
06:11:32 <AnMaster> <Gregor> http://erictheallen.com/audio/argylegargoyle.mp3 <-- nice jazzy feeling
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06:11:48 <Gregor> In case it wasn't obvious, both of these are from Eric Allen, who's a good friend of mine :P
06:12:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You're referring to either his nose or his hair parting
06:12:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah a combination I think. This is a high res screen (laptop)
06:12:42 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OOYZcVIp8w is the music of a boss fight in SMG. The cool thing is that the music doesn't loop through into the second part in-game; rather, when you have Bowser vulnerable, it seamlessly ads the chanting. It's quite the effect.
06:12:44 <pikhq> I would also like to note that Gregor's opera are awesome.
06:13:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: The plural of opus is opera.
06:13:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, no one but you uses it like that nowdays!
06:14:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, with opera people mean stuff like Carmen or Nibelungununugen (sp?)
06:14:24 <coppro> there are some off bits, but for the most part, I do enjoy those opera
06:14:29 <fizzie> "opii" sounds nice, if completely wrong.
06:14:29 <coppro> I think I have them up to 11 here
06:15:01 <coppro> AnMaster: FvbCV6E0Wro I like
06:15:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes. That's opera in the singular.
06:15:04 <Gregor> coppro: Op. 12 never materialized and op. 13 is a work-in-progress.
06:15:07 <pikhq> Latin: isn't it awesome?
06:15:36 <AnMaster> coppro, ... that is what a musical perpetuum mobile is :P
06:15:38 <Gregor> Really, a piece of music called "perpetual motion" is repetetive?
06:16:11 <coppro> well, there are bits like 3:06 that vary it
06:16:17 <AnMaster> <Gregor> http://erictheallen.com/audio/argylegargoyle.mp3 <-- okay I love that
06:16:19 <coppro> but up until then, it's pretty constant
06:16:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you keep incrementing him like that, he's going to overflow.
06:16:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, he is bignum, no worry
06:17:21 <Gregor> AnMaster: http://erictheallen.com/audio/allemande.mp3 (please give about 30 seconds leniency before judging it :P )
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06:17:54 <Gregor> I am now enqueuing sleep.
06:18:22 <AnMaster> Gregor, performing parallel fetch
06:18:44 <AnMaster> <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OOYZcVIp8w is the music of a boss fight in SMG. The cool thing is that the music doesn't loop through into the second part in-game; rather, when you have Bowser vulnerable, it seamlessly ads the chanting. It's quite the effect.
06:18:55 <AnMaster> coppro, um. No boss fight shot?
06:19:24 <coppro> AnMaster: The music quality on a recorded copy would likely be diminished, but I can look for one
06:19:58 <AnMaster> coppro, what did you like QbhA7NRZTZ0 ?
06:20:11 <coppro> haven't gotten to it yet
06:20:21 <coppro> gregor snuck two links in before that
06:20:38 <AnMaster> coppro, please implement a priority queue. I'm going to sleep soon. Gregor is already sleeping
06:21:24 <coppro> does the argyle gargoyle get good at the end? I'm not a big fan of it so far (about halfway through)
06:21:28 <AnMaster> coppro, remember: second half is best since that is the original
06:21:37 <AnMaster> coppro, about the same all the way through
06:21:50 <coppro> it's funky, but not musically interesting to me
06:22:25 <coppro> AnMaster: isn't it a bit early for you to go to bed? :P
06:22:44 <AnMaster> coppro, rather very very very late
06:23:26 <AnMaster> coppro, so what about QbhA7NRZTZ0? like it so far? :)
06:24:21 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster: http://erictheallen.com/audio/allemande.mp3 (please give about 30 seconds leniency before judging it :P ) <-- um I have no idea how to describe this. Awesome and awful at at the same time might be best.
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06:26:39 <AnMaster> coppro, tell me when you heard more of it which half you prefer. A bit irritating with that two-in-one video. Good for comparing a composer adopting a work though
06:26:45 <AnMaster> but yeah second half for me definitely
06:26:57 <AnMaster> has a more violent and untamed feeling to it.
06:27:12 <AnMaster> coppro, I'm going to sleep. Will read scrollback later
06:27:14 <coppro> part 2 just started, and I can already say it's better
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08:06:10 <fungot> CakeProphet: that was a test flight operated by remote control. no casualties. period."
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15:20:06 <cheater99> ski: why are you trying to dcc send me something?
15:20:44 <ais523> maybe it's a DCC virus
15:22:19 <Sgeo> Wasn't there an exploit involving jpgs a while ago?
15:24:51 <cheater99> there's always an exploit involving jpgs
15:25:17 <cheater99> that's like asking if there wasn't an exploit involving ie
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15:36:34 <adu> ie is an exploit toolkit
15:38:10 <cheater99> * DCC CHAT connect attempt to Sgeo failed (err=Connection timed out).
15:38:18 <Sgeo> I just aborted it
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15:39:00 <Sgeo> Maybe I should send you something that registers on every antivirus as a virus
15:39:14 <ais523> Sgeo: the antivirus program test file?
15:39:18 <Ilari> Sgeo: EICAR-ANTIVIRUS-TEST? :-)
15:39:36 <Sgeo> *mutters "too easy" to himself*
15:40:41 <Ilari> Do program file that's totally harmless but registers in every AV as dangerous virus/malware? :-)
15:41:13 <ais523> you could do that "easily" enough by creating a hash collision against some famous old virus
15:41:39 <Sgeo> Do a/vs use md5?
15:41:46 <Sgeo> I mean, that's the easiest to.. wait, no
15:41:55 <Ilari> What "serious" hashes can be 2nd preimage collided?
15:41:58 <Sgeo> It's two crafted entities
15:42:31 <Ilari> (with reasonable effort). IIRC, none of MD2/MD4/MD5 can.
15:43:26 <Ilari> MD4 can be collided with pen&paper&calculator. No computer needed. :-)
15:43:31 <ais523> second preimage is one of the hardest hash exploits, isn't it?
15:44:10 <Ilari> The logarithmic brute-force difficulty is n, so its pretty hard.
15:44:38 <Ilari> (Collision has n/2).
15:44:59 <Ilari> BTW: Cycle finding is also n/2.
15:46:54 <Ilari> Hmm... What are the probabilities that random "large" hash has 1-cycle? 2-cycle? etc...
15:47:05 <cpressey> ais523: Are you still up? Please tell me you at least got a nap in!
15:47:12 <ais523> cpressey: I had a good night's sleep, don't worry
15:47:45 <cpressey> That's good :) I remember those, they're fun.
15:47:55 <ais523> and finally got a reply back about an hour after I went to sleep, saying that the deadline's actually on Friday
15:48:06 <ais523> leaving the lingering question in my mind as to who got the deadline wrong
15:48:21 <distant_figure> I can see no difference between Collisison resistance and second preimange resistance according tho the wiki page on crypto hashes. Anyone care to elaborate?
15:48:41 <Ilari> For 1-cycle, the probability is 1 - (1 - 1/I)^I = 1 - e^-1 which is approximately 63.2%.
15:49:15 <Ilari> distant_figure: In collision resistance, the first input can be anything, in 2nd preimage, the first input is given.
15:50:17 <ais523> being able to choose /both/ inputs yourself makes a collision much easier to do than a second preimage
15:50:42 <Ilari> There's also intermediate where X and Y are given and one has to find Z and W such that H(X|Z) = H(Y|W).
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16:23:10 <cheater99> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1293165/Nanny-30-died-sexual-arousal-watching-pornography.html
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16:42:50 <pikhq> Whoever invented smooth scrolling was a cruel bastard who hated usability.
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17:04:44 <Gregor-W> Sgeo: JUST noticed your comment w.r.t. my apples-oranges comparison :P
17:11:00 <ais523> wow, the latest news about Facebook is hilarious
17:11:27 <ais523> it seems that someone loaned Zuckerburg $1000 to help him make his website, on the condition that he'd own 1% more of Facebook for every day that its creation was late
17:11:43 <ais523> and it ran 84 days late, and they've only just noticed
17:14:35 <ais523> wow, I'm /still/ laughing
17:15:48 <ais523> anyway, he used his 84% share in Facebook to get a court to freeze its assets
17:15:56 <ais523> next step is probably going to involve a bunch of lawyers
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17:16:53 <ais523> (I think I now see why people need lawyers to write contracts...)
17:17:20 <cpressey> I'm still at the trying to figure out why anyone would place a condition like that on a loan
17:18:35 <pikhq> cpressey: Zuckerburg is an idiot when it comes to anything monetary.
17:18:50 <pikhq> That's the only conclusion I can come to.
17:19:17 <cpressey> Oh wait, does "he" not refer to Zuckerburg in ais523's first few lines?
17:19:29 <ais523> cpressey: it doesn't refer to Zuckerburg
17:19:33 <ais523> but to someone who loaned him money
17:20:04 <cpressey> Oh, well SOMEONE's laughing. :)
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17:21:17 <ais523> <Facebook's lawyers> In his Complaint, Plaintiff alleges that, as a result of a two-page contract purportedly entered into more than seven years ago (and approximately nine months before the founding of Facebook), he is entitled to an 84% ownership stake in the Company. (Id. at Ex. A 4, 8).
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17:29:56 <cpressey> For a measly thousand dollars.
17:30:42 <ais523> incidentally, the person who offered the loan is apparently pretty shady too
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17:31:06 <ais523> one of his companies is under investigation for not making good on over $200,000 of orders
17:31:23 <pikhq> And laughing all the way to the bank regardless.
17:35:32 <distant_figure> ais523: now that's interestig. That message of yours triggered a nick hilight and dust've fooled my regex, but I cant see where
17:35:55 <ais523> distant_figure: which message specifically?
17:37:28 <ais523> that's a strange highlight
17:37:49 <distant_figure> aah, no, nevermind. It wasn'i. I had an old one for 'nine' for some reason
17:37:56 <ais523> that's a stranger highlight
17:38:41 <ais523> ah, I was wondering why I didn't recognise you
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17:59:57 <pikhq> Hello, hominids, cephalopods.
18:00:22 <ais523> pikhq: that's ingenious, it took me a while to figure out what you meant
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18:01:49 <pikhq> I simply *must* refer to calamari as a squid. It's... Imperative.
18:02:03 <cpressey> calamari: you mean, like DrScheme?
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18:04:12 * cpressey is curious to know if calamari or ais523 (or anyone else) is using "agile methods" in their day job.
18:04:33 <ais523> cpressey: I'm not, I tend not to write extensive testcases
18:04:41 <calamari> IBM has been doing a huge agile push
18:04:44 <ais523> I do try to keep code easy to refactor, though
18:04:46 <ais523> unless it's already hard
18:05:32 <pikhq> Well, yeah... The things that make code easy to refactor also make it easy to do just about anything else with.
18:05:35 <pikhq> Like "be understood".
18:05:57 <cpressey> ais523: Interesting contrast -- are you suggesting that agile implies lack of testing?
18:06:20 <ais523> cpressey: agile implies lots of testcases, it's part of the definition
18:06:21 <cpressey> I'm using agile here, but at least they;re not getting it as wrong as the last place I was at
18:06:29 <ais523> lots of testcases doesn't necessarily imply easy to refactor, though
18:06:45 <ais523> I don't see anything about agile that seems to imply encapsulation
18:07:05 <calamari> I think right now we are nearly out of the agile waterfall mode
18:07:11 <cpressey> ais523: sorry, I kind of read what you said as "I'm not, I tend not to write extensive testcases instead"
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18:07:41 <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked
18:07:55 <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
18:08:14 <ais523> waterfall model is underrated IMO; I'm not saying it's /good/, but it's not as bad as everyone seems to think it is
18:08:23 <calamari> sometimes waterfall is the right way to go
18:09:18 <calamari> for example our app where if it fails companies could stand to lose millions of dollars a day
18:10:06 <ais523> waterfall needs a huge amount of foresight
18:10:16 <ais523> where you get the architecture right from the start
18:10:37 <calamari> exactly.. you plan it all out in advance and have multiple reviews
18:10:50 <Gregor-W> `addquote <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
18:10:57 <Gregor-W> Quotes from the legends of #esoteric :P
18:10:59 <HackEgo> 194|<ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
18:11:25 <Gregor-W> (Yes, I realize that's not properly a response)
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18:12:41 <Sgeo> I guess I should try to learn these models
18:12:46 <pikhq> What an oddly selective netsplit.
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18:13:25 <Sgeo> Got three people in #android
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18:18:19 <Sgeo> Ok, I think these earphones (circumaural) that I found lying around in my dad's room makes everything sound too deep
18:18:30 <Sgeo> Unless that's how things are supposed to sound
18:19:21 <Sgeo> These are maxell
18:19:26 <Sgeo> Noise cancellation
18:20:47 <Sgeo> Oh, ok, this is gorgeous
18:20:51 <Sgeo> Listening to L's theme
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18:27:16 <Gregor-W> Quoth a friend of mine on mov 2 WIPP9: "I liked the fast part, and the transition back to the main theme, but then it went all romantic and crazy"
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22:41:28 <Warrigal> "Is your SpiderMonkey compiled with JS_THREADSAFE (most things will fail if you answer wrong)?"
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22:42:01 <cpressey> (most things will fail if you answer wrong, and it will be YOUR FAULT)?
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22:43:40 <oerjan> YOU'RE IN THE WRONG CHANNEL FOR THAT, SURELY
22:45:24 * oerjan notes that aliseiphone doesn't mention him. good, you still have _some_ shred of sanity.
22:45:25 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I have an old laptop in front of me. I want to boot it with NO noise. It has a Fn+Mute combo. Will this mute the speakers even before the OS is loaded?
22:45:56 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Possibly, but are you sure you want to risk it?
22:46:12 <cpressey> Uh. I would bet "no, it won't work". But I might be wrong.
22:46:19 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Not sure, no. But I really want it on.
22:46:34 <aliseiphone> cpressey: The other Fn keys function without an OS.
22:46:37 <oerjan> this is going to end well.
22:46:40 <pikhq> An almost sure way to mute it would be to insert a phono plug not attached to anything into its headphone jack.
22:46:45 <oerjan> cheater: you just realize NOW?
22:47:02 <cheater> i was biking around a dark forrest
22:47:13 <pikhq> I suggest hitting a store when you get out next.
22:47:15 <oerjan> cheater: it's not like it's the _first_ time
22:47:16 <Warrigal> Yeah, what's this illegality about?
22:47:29 <cheater> aliseiphone: i thought someone here said u'r not allowed to
22:47:40 <pikhq> He's "voluntarily" in there.
22:47:50 <cheater> but given that they are executors of the law
22:47:57 <Warrigal> I take it the leaving the country thing hasn't gone very well.
22:48:06 <pikhq> cheater: Ah, but he's not there because of the law.
22:48:17 <cheater> but you'd been put there for some sort of lawsuit, no?
22:48:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Can I disable the speaker in the Bios setup?
22:48:21 <pikhq> He's there because they threaten to make life very inconvenient if he does not comply.
22:48:37 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I don't know; it would depend on the specific computer model.
22:48:44 <cheater> i salute you for being disobedient
22:48:57 <coppro> It's like voluntarily reporting to gaol every day so that they don't have to actually bother charging you
22:49:05 <pikhq> cheater: It's basically "you show up to this 'school' *or* we institutionalise you".
22:49:11 <cpressey> BIOS setup screen is not guaranteed to be quiet. Sometimes they do the "internal speaker beep" thing. Which would be quite worse.
22:49:11 <coppro> which is a headache for everyone
22:49:33 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Old. One USB, no Ethernet, PS2 and serial, PCMCIA slot, sticker recommending NT or Win98.
22:49:44 <pikhq> He is de jure perfectly free, and merely attending this school in preference to other schooling.
22:50:15 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Internal speaker is quiet enough.
22:50:18 <Warrigal> aliseiphone: have you posted to /r/iama yet?
22:50:18 <pikhq> De facto he is institutionalised for 5 days a week.
22:50:46 <aliseiphone> Warrigal: After all this is over I will do that and write about it.
22:50:56 <pikhq> For apparently being... OCD and autistic.
22:51:07 <aliseiphone> Bios setup. That's F2. Waiting for quiet moment.
22:51:33 * coppro finished Anathem today
22:51:35 <Gracenotes> I am jealous of people who can configure computer insides so easily. I tried my hand at it today, moving RAM and an internal hard drive from one computer to another. but still getting the hang of it.
22:51:40 <Warrigal> Compulsive Disorder of Obsession?
22:51:50 <pikhq> Under the apparent reasoning that arbitrarily upsetting one's environment is very good for OCD, and very good for autism.
22:51:50 <aliseiphone> pikhq: No POST beep! Fan whirr is audible but quiet.
22:52:04 <aliseiphone> Unless someone sticks their ear to the window I am ok
22:52:30 <pikhq> I presume that they also operate under the reasoning that one should treat anorexia by telling anorexics how fat they are.
22:53:13 <pikhq> And severe paranoia by invoking a government conspiracy that's out to get them.
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22:53:30 <aliseiphone> They just force her to eat and ...that's it
22:53:40 <Gracenotes> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoXQKumgCw
22:53:45 <pikhq> aliseiphone: That's... Criminal.
22:54:20 <pikhq> I mean, literally, that is criminal negligence and could very well be manslaughter.
22:54:54 <aliseiphone> pikhq: How would she die? She is constantly monitored.
22:55:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Upon being let out, if ever.
22:55:27 <aliseiphone> She is: to some school where she will be constantly monitored.
22:55:28 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Good video.
22:56:38 <pikhq> Warrigal: The negligence?
22:57:00 <Warrigal> What are they supposed to be doing that they're not?
22:57:10 <pikhq> *Treating anorexia*.
22:57:30 <pikhq> Hint: the not-eating is a *symptom*.
22:57:34 <aliseiphone> Ok. I am worried about the fan noise and the sound. Also the battery is almost dead so I have to put it on charge.
22:58:05 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Painful to watch someone spread butter on toast for five minutes.
22:58:20 <Warrigal> Mind is come to by the phrase "treat the symptom, cure the disease".
22:58:45 <cheater> aliseiphone: are you trying to make some sort of laptop/etc more silent?
22:59:19 <aliseiphone> I may block the fan slightly to muffle it.
22:59:24 <cheater> aliseiphone: if you have 200 quid sitting around, you could get an atom..\
22:59:35 <cheater> actually they're much cheaper now
22:59:40 <cheater> you can probably get one sub-150
22:59:42 * Warrigal notes that the phrase that came to mind is bullshit.
22:59:48 <aliseiphone> cheater: But I'm /allowed/ to *have* this laptop here.
22:59:59 <cheater> oh, so why are you muffling it?
23:00:38 <cheater> sometimes going with the flow isn't too bad
23:00:47 <cheater> don't be afraid to try someone else's way of doing things
23:01:18 <pikhq> cheater: Mental institution. Those suckers are pretty universally run stupidly.
23:01:30 <cheater> yes. but if you go to sleep at 10, you'll wake up early
23:01:40 <cheater> and can irc around in the morning
23:01:51 <cheater> they'll be happy you are getting up rise and shine
23:01:53 <aliseiphone> You are suggesting I cut myself off from anyone I know, care about or talk to for 5/7ths of the week for the sake of A FUCKING INSTITUTION RUN BY LUNATICS?
23:02:09 <pikhq> You realise that most teenagers can't naturally go to sleep that early, right?
23:02:14 <aliseiphone> cheater: Firstly. Teenagers cannot do early bed early rise.
23:02:35 <aliseiphone> Secondly. You are woken at 7am and must be ready shortly after.
23:03:18 <Warrigal> I'm a teenager, planning to be awake at 7 AM every morning for... a long time.
23:03:21 <cheater> you have a right to be anything you want
23:03:56 <pikhq> cheater: Psychology is still largely a psuedoscience. Now shaddup.
23:04:19 <cheater> pikhq: i never said it wasn't
23:04:21 <Warrigal> But I still thought that your suggestion was so good that I went back in time and took it. >.>
23:04:31 <cheater> pikhq: next you'll start arguing to me that the sky in fact is blue.
23:04:49 <pikhq> cheater: You seem to be operating under the assumption that they have his interests at heart, though.
23:05:24 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So. Do you think the mute key mutes the OS or the speaker? I bet the speaker. Win98 didn't support that stuff without drivers afaik.
23:05:27 <cheater> pikhq: accepting someone's way of doing things has nothing to do with the reason that person has for taking on that modus operandi
23:05:46 <cheater> aliseiphone: it mutes the OS.
23:06:07 <cheater> pikhq: is there something wrong about that statement?
23:06:07 <aliseiphone> I spent months not smuggling this in. I almost broke down.
23:06:10 <pikhq> cheater: I'm almost certain he can't do 10PM sleep most nights.
23:06:27 <aliseiphone> As in utter, complete, shattering mental meltdown.
23:06:38 <cheater> aliseiphone: i'm not saying you should do that!!! i was just suggesting it's sometimes an alternative
23:07:01 <cheater> aliseiphone: i thought you got your fair share of friends outside your past-10-pm sessions
23:07:31 <cheater> well, that's just what i thought was the case.
23:07:47 <cheater> in that case i see how that would be necessary
23:07:53 <pikhq> cheater: You do realise we *are* his circle of friends, correct?
23:08:11 <Warrigal> aliseiphone: you can't have friends while watched?
23:08:12 <aliseiphone> This is the only way I can contact anyone: waves, pinging through the window.
23:08:26 <aliseiphone> Warrigal: I can't use the Internet while watched.
23:08:26 <cheater> pikhq: well, on some level i do now
23:09:05 <cheater> aliseiphone: now i understand you're in a similar situation to what i was in during high school
23:09:18 <Warrigal> aliseiphone: and, what, you're not allowed to talk to people?
23:09:45 <cheater> Warrigal: people in the hospital aren't necessarily his friends
23:09:55 <cheater> although, i bet alise could make friends with someone there if she tried
23:10:09 <pikhq> Warrigal: Yuh. How dare he have social interaction, one of those things that pretty much all humans need!
23:10:19 <aliseiphone> Warrigal: 12yo severe OCD, autistic brat; 13yo anorexic girl, not so smart
23:10:31 <aliseiphone> Pick one. The latter only sleeps done nights.
23:10:34 <cpressey> Yeah aliseiphone, you're just not trying hard enough to make friends. :/
23:10:46 <Warrigal> You're only allowed contact with two people?
23:11:20 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Incidentally: why the *hell* aren't you a day patient currently?
23:11:24 <aliseiphone> But: 13yo football & wrestling fan; 12yo girl who doesn't really do much of anything
23:11:36 <pikhq> I mean, surely the overnight-stay-thing is intended for suicide risks and such?
23:11:47 <pikhq> Oh, wait. I'm presuming rationality.
23:11:53 <aliseiphone> In the other "group" so less access: 11yo obese getswhatshewants bitch
23:12:08 <pikhq> Warrigal: Show up for classes, leave.
23:12:55 <pikhq> Try making friends with someone you only ever see in the middle of a classroom.
23:13:37 <coppro> when I said to read Anathem earlier
23:13:47 <coppro> I meant it to basically everyone in this channel
23:13:54 <cheater> Warrigal: aliseiphone is a fairly complex person and she's not going to find friends in just any first person off the street
23:14:05 <pikhq> coppro: It's in the queue somewhere.
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23:16:18 <cheater> aliseiphone: so there's no chance you'd be getting an atom then?
23:16:38 <aliseiphone> Oh, that 12yo OCDautistic kid? He's the only "active" inpatient. So he controls basically all of the TV/console facilities, the only entertainment allowed pretty much. And he freaks out and covers his ears if the volume is more than... 4 clicks from zero.
23:17:01 <aliseiphone> Even I, with batlike hearing, can barely hear voices from up close.
23:17:39 <cheater> you should turn things up so that it's still fairly normal but he freaks out
23:17:43 <cheater> so that he gets put on strong meds
23:18:00 <cpressey> coppro: Better Anathem than Anthem
23:18:02 <cheater> it would be like the lord of the flies
23:18:04 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Bat-like hearing and difficulty picking out voices from background noise are a fun combination.
23:18:35 <aliseiphone> Oh, and, I am not joking here, from around 8pm to 9pm the TV is inaccessible. Why? HE HAS AN OBSESSION WITH WATCHING OLD REPEATS OF "FRIENDS".
23:18:50 <pikhq> "I heard all of your mouth-noises but I couldn't tell what it was because the CRT on your TV set is too irritating."
23:19:05 <aliseiphone> cheater: Hes already on meds. Fucked if I know what they do
23:19:07 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Autistic obsessions are kinda like that.
23:19:27 <aliseiphone> pikhq: But he never saw it before coming here apparently.
23:19:31 <pikhq> And the meds are probably psuedo-science.
23:19:45 <pikhq> (psychiatric drugs are... "
23:19:55 <cheater> aliseiphone: they'll certainly put him on stronger ones just so he shuts the fuck up. nobody wants a loud kid around.
23:20:04 <pikhq> Give random shit, wait until we get desired behavior")
23:20:09 <aliseiphone> Oh, and he's great at memorising stuff and using the word "Scientifically," but he is almost incapable of rational thought.
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23:20:27 <aliseiphone> cheater: no they're "caring" and "supportive".
23:20:38 <cheater> aliseiphone: caring and supportive has a limit
23:20:51 <cheater> that limit is when the carer has to go on a cig break and the fucking kid won't shut the fuck up
23:21:12 <aliseiphone> dude these are nurses. they've seen worse.
23:22:13 <cheater> lord of the flies was like any school i was to
23:22:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Irrational, autistic, unable to function because of huge sensory issues and severe obsessive compulsive behaviour. And a smartass brat type.
23:22:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Does this kid have... a reason to... exist?
23:22:44 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Oh, he got the trifecta. Wonderful.
23:22:46 <cheater> aliseiphone: i've had a friend whose girlfriend would watch friends all the time. he didn't like the series at all
23:22:54 <aliseiphone> Autism is only cool when you're /rational/.
23:23:20 <cheater> aliseiphone: so he'd sit around with her and when canned laughter started, he'd laugh with it
23:23:25 <cheater> and he'd piss her off all the time
23:23:39 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Him's a busy having no fucking clue how social anything works.
23:23:41 <cheater> i'm sure he'd think you're the most annoying girl on the planet
23:24:00 <aliseiphone> cheater: you should stop making words appear on my telephone now
23:24:02 <pikhq> Seriously no fucking clue.
23:24:28 <pikhq> In addition to sensory issues and obsessive compulsive-ism.
23:24:43 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I have noticed that not once have I changed any opinion he has expressed ever.
23:25:07 <aliseiphone> He is fixed! His operating system cannot interpret REASON.
23:25:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, and he's a vegetarian... an OBNOXIOUS vegetarian.
23:25:53 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Most autistics have trouble understanding that their view of things is not the view of everyone else who lives.
23:26:22 <aliseiphone> Looks away whenever meat is shown on TV, rants endlessly at you for even mentioning it, supports PETA despite not being vegan...
23:26:52 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Ugh, PETA.
23:27:02 <pikhq> Support for PETA is instant proof of non-rationalism.
23:27:12 <aliseiphone> pikhq: He's the first autistic /idiot/ I've ever seen. And if you're not brilliant and can't play the social game, what the fuck can you do? Breathe?
23:27:51 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Approximately.
23:28:01 <aliseiphone> Also his name is Jonathan and he lives in Darlington, please go and stab him forever
23:28:21 <cpressey> If he freaks out at malformed widgets on the assembly line, you see.
23:28:32 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh. And he doesn't understand "winning".
23:28:56 <aliseiphone> He gets upset when he starts winning and whoops for joy when he has to forfeit to other players.
23:29:15 <aliseiphone> He hates games with winners and losers because "the loser will feel bad".
23:29:34 <aliseiphone> If playing eg table tennis, he will deliberately
23:29:45 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I'm going to guess that the sensory issues cause trouble with learning about things.
23:30:35 <aliseiphone> I tried to explain that people like to feel they've been challenged when they win. His reply: "Oh, then I'll pretend to give a challenge!"
23:30:43 <pikhq> The only reason I can really talk in a vaguely normal fashion is that I have read a *hell* of a lot. This is where I got used to the whole *idea* of understanding what someone else thinks...
23:31:06 <pikhq> Okay, that's not the only reason.
23:31:09 <pikhq> There's also been oodles of IRC.
23:31:18 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Sure is good at memorising stuff. 'Swhy he's doing GCSE Geography; it requires no thought whatsoever.
23:31:27 <pikhq> Which is much like normal interaction except less embarassing when you say something stupid.
23:32:14 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I just realised. Autistics are born with a devout belief in solipsism!
23:32:21 <pikhq> (mmm, using alternate input schemes so the brain fails to worry frantically about saying something stupid so you can actually say anything at all.)
23:33:30 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Better prep yourself for teaching the Systems Administration cause for #esoteric University, then!
23:34:35 <coppro> I'll teach English Lit
23:35:04 <aliseiphone> coppro: Pfft, we won't offer degrees /that/ useless.
23:35:28 <coppro> aliseiphone: Oh, of course not. But everyone knows you need to take an English Lit course to get any degree ;)
23:35:57 <coppro> I'll be the prof who's teaching only because he has to, so he's in the course for the same reason as the students - it's the most painless way to do it
23:35:59 <pikhq> aliseiphone: English Lit as taught by an #esotericer would probably have actual merit.
23:36:12 <aliseiphone> coppro: Okay then. Include Harry Potter fan fiction in the syllabus.
23:36:20 <pikhq> For instance, teaching literature simply for the pleasure of reading it.
23:37:24 <cpressey> coppro: That's the kind of prof that tends to lean back in his chair and talk to the ceiling. Generally I like that kind of prof.
23:37:32 <aliseiphone> Alternatively, a piece of slash fiction of your choice.
23:37:42 <coppro> brb, going go reset the X memory hogging system
23:38:47 <pikhq> The X windowing chaos.
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23:40:43 <pikhq> The Glasgow PhD Generator, you mean.
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23:42:05 <cpressey> The Perl loosely-structured-data gluer.
23:43:53 <pikhq> The Disk Obfuscation System.
23:44:03 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So is Puppy Linux good for shitty boxes?
23:44:13 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Stunningly.
23:44:33 <cpressey> Good god, I don't think I could bring myself to use a software package named "Puppy" anything.
23:44:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: 463mhz. 64mb of ram. Can I be happy?
23:45:26 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I have a reddit addiction. JS, CSS etc browser. Still happy w/ Puppy?
23:45:34 * Sgeo watches Legend of Neil
23:46:00 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Would be nicer with a bit more RAM, but should be.
23:46:01 <cpressey> This is the same kind of marketing that comes from the kind of people who decided an out-of-shape penguin was "cute", obviously.
23:46:17 <aliseiphone> Has anyone used a pre-3G S iPhone as a tethered modem?
23:46:30 <pikhq> Requires jailbreaking.
23:46:55 <pikhq> No, but I know it can be done.
23:47:07 <pikhq> It's a jailbreak and an app install away.
23:47:19 <aliseiphone> The 3G sticks don't get reception here, so I'd like to use this to connect up my Puppy Linux system :P
23:48:28 <pikhq> http://www.puppylinux.com/
23:49:45 <pikhq> The only thing is, that system doesn't have enough RAM for Puppy to want to load itself into your system RAM.
23:49:57 <pikhq> So, you'll have to care about disc seeks.
23:50:02 <pikhq> Not a big deal though.
23:51:41 <cpressey> Wish my brain wasn't so fucking tired after a day's work.
23:52:00 <cpressey> Makes it hard to have fun, when what you're used to having fun with, is your brain.
23:52:10 <cpressey> Makes it easy to understand why TV and beer are so popular.
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23:54:32 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Hmm. It's one stick of 64mb. Laptop circa 98.
23:54:56 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Neither.
23:55:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: What sort of CPU?
23:55:39 <aliseiphone> pikhq: "Pentium Pro" or "Pentium II" Celeron.
23:55:42 <pikhq> That predates the DDR spec by 2 years, BTW.
23:56:53 <aliseiphone> Basically, I'm wondering what the biggest stick I could get is.
23:57:07 <pikhq> That's older than freaking RDRAM...
23:57:19 <pikhq> You're looking at PC100.
23:57:34 <cheater> pentium 2 was 66 mhz unless it was the highest spec
23:57:39 <cheater> but the laptop ones were reduced fsb
23:57:56 <cheater> the biggest stick might very well be 64 mb btw
23:58:04 <pikhq> cheater: Yeah, but you're not *finding* PC66. And PC100 will step down its clock rate just fine.
23:58:06 <cheater> and you might have trouble finding a stick with the right memory density
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23:58:38 <cheater> i.e. it'd be 64 mb, but your laptop can only support two-sided sticks whereas yours would be one-sided (i.e. half the amount of memory chips, but they're double the capacity i.e. density)
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23:58:54 <cheater> pikhq: but, pc100 might have higher density.\
23:59:11 <pikhq> It should support high-density memory...
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23:59:33 <pikhq> I know I've run a system older than that with a 256MB stick in it...
23:59:47 <pikhq> Granted, it was a DIMM rather than an SO-DIMM, but still.
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00:01:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Memory bus clockrate is 66mhz.
00:02:33 <pikhq> And it'll be fucking expensive.
00:04:48 <pikhq> Oh, okay. $50 for a 512 SO-DIMM.
00:04:54 <aliseiphone> Apparently using a USB stick as swap helps Puppy
00:05:08 <pikhq> Fairly pricy, but at least payable.
00:05:15 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Roughly.
00:05:36 <pikhq> Only pricy in comparison with other RAM standards, then...
00:05:47 <aliseiphone> With, say, 128 of swap on a USB stick (USB 1.0)
00:06:22 <aliseiphone> I need SOMETHING to do over summer holiday.
00:06:59 <aliseiphone> So if I stuck 512 in and put puppy on a partition to load to ram it'd fly?
00:07:12 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I bet USB 1 is faster than the disk
00:07:18 <pikhq> It'll load from RAM anywhere you boot it from, BTW.
00:07:23 <pikhq> And yes, it'd freaking fly.
00:07:37 <pikhq> (well, it's always *optional*, but still.)
00:07:57 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I wonder how puppy would run on a high spec box.
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00:08:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: *Obnoxiously* well.
00:08:54 <pikhq> I should note once again: *IT MAKES GTK RUN FAST*.
00:09:11 <pikhq> And it's using binaries built for Ubuntu!
00:09:18 <cpressey> Later folks. Have fun with your laptop, aliseiphone...
00:09:37 <pikhq> With useless bullshit cut out, but still, it's Ubuntu-based. Well, the official distro is.
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00:09:55 <pikhq> It's created by a program that cuts useless bullshit out of packages from $distro-of-choice.
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00:10:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I read that it's not based on any distro.
00:11:36 <pikhq> aliseiphone: It is currently.
00:11:52 <pikhq> It's previously been Slackware-based, then not based on any. It's now Ubuntu-based.
00:12:42 <pikhq> The point of making it Ubuntu-based was to be able to just focus on making the system run fast without having to futz with all the building-packages junk.
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00:14:08 <pikhq> It also feels free to make its own packages whenever needed.
00:15:02 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I have an urge to make my own RAM based distro now.
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00:16:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Ubuntu's just one of the possible Puppy bases.
00:16:36 <pikhq> You could shove in Slackware packages if you wanted.
00:17:06 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007611%20600006081&IsNodeId=1&name=24GB%20%286%20x%204GB%29 Would you care to join me in drooling?
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00:20:41 <pikhq> I can come up with ways to use all that.
00:20:59 <aliseiphone> With 16 GiB you can load an entire Ubuntu installation with many packaged into RAM.
00:21:15 <pikhq> Not enough to compile OpenOffice in RAM.
00:21:31 <pikhq> Also, seriously, all of Ubuntu's just 16 GiB? That's pretty tiny compared with Debian.
00:21:49 <pikhq> Which comes on two BluRay discs.
00:22:14 <aliseiphone> If you installed tons of useful shit, lets say 8 GiB.
00:22:49 <aliseiphone> Of course, loading it into ram would take four years.
00:23:37 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I wish there was a useful lightweight browser. :(
00:25:49 <pikhq> Yeah, works just fine.
00:26:09 <pikhq> KDrive is a full-featured X11 that *happens* to be very small.
00:26:44 <pikhq> It was actually the testing bed for most of their recent things to make X suck less, like XRender acceleration...
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00:30:21 <Gracenotes> okay time to call dell support to get a new hard drive from them
00:30:31 <aliseiphone> VESA or framebuffer. Which is a cooler X driver? Or... EGA?!
00:32:50 <aliseiphone> CAN YOU POSSIBLY DECIDE PIKHQ OR ARE YOU BLINDED BY THE AWESOMENESS OF EGA???
00:33:55 <aliseiphone> Then allow me to remove it from the equation! VESA or framebuffer?
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00:34:31 <pikhq> Equivalent in functionality for most purposes.
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00:36:15 <aliseiphone> With some suitably punny ram-related name.
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06:32:12 <Gregor> To anyone who's listened to Mov. 2 WIPP 9: PREPARE FOR INSANE TREBLE. That is all.
06:40:47 <Gregor> "Damn it, that chord is so perfect, too bad it's physically impossible.
06:40:57 <Gregor> WHY DON'T I HAVE RACHMANNINOV HANDS.
06:41:28 * pikhq gives Gregor salad fingers
06:46:12 <Gregor> I really love the treble on this digital piano.
06:46:21 <Gregor> It's actually better than the treble on any real piano I've played.
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06:48:08 <pikhq> Presumably good treble on a piano is pricy.
06:49:09 <Gregor> It's tricky. It's either horribly godawful piercing or really dull. Getting the right balance is tough, and actually I think digitals do generally better than real pianos.
06:49:26 <Gregor> But this one in particular is just spectacular.
06:49:31 <pikhq> And of course any real piano requires skilled tuning.
06:49:36 <Gregor> I just want to hang out in the top few octaves because it's awesome :P
06:49:40 <pikhq> Whereas a digital piano is forever and ever in tune.
06:49:50 <Gregor> Until you take a soldering iron to it!
06:49:58 <pikhq> Darned circuit-bending.
06:50:47 <Gregor> Welp, I've just been playing the piano for two hours (with brief pauses to chat) as a sad attempt at holding on to what few shreds of sanity I have left.
06:51:14 <Gregor> And by the time I'm done with mov. 2, it'll have more use of the top note on a piano than anything I've ever written or played X-P
06:51:21 <Gregor> (OK, only two thusfar, but still :P )
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09:07:11 <cheater> can a cat be said to be a quine
09:25:03 <Slereah> Only if you type in the exact words of the program!
09:26:16 <fizzie> Also if you don't neuter it, but it might not be a *perfect* quine, just sort-of.
09:36:38 <Slereah> The best kind of quines are the cheating quines.
09:36:48 <Slereah> My favorites are the quines via error messages
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09:37:29 <Deewiant> Cheating quines are boring: writing out the contents of __FILE__ or equivalent is rather trivial
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11:31:33 <cheater> is it true that the smalltalk debugger is really good?
11:31:41 <cheater> and what does it do that it's so good?
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12:51:28 <cheater> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGhvKyjgLY
13:06:57 <ais523> cheater: why on earth would I follow a random link to Youtube without context?
13:07:18 <cheater> ais523: because it is important for all computer scientists
13:07:37 <ais523> if it were, I would have seen it already
13:11:34 <cheater> that's why i linked you to it
13:12:57 <ais523> searching backlinks implies it's about memristors, which I have definitely heard of
13:13:05 <ais523> but I don't see why they'd be more relevant to computer scientists than engineers
13:13:14 <ais523> in computer science, you generally don't care what components the computer is made of
13:17:28 <cheater> the stuff directly interesting to computer programmers starts around 30:00
13:18:05 <cheater> they describe how memristors can give you petabytes of directly addressable, clock-speed on-cpu memory with current technologies
13:18:30 <ais523> I wouldn't call that directly interesting
13:18:37 <ais523> that's just a scale issue
13:18:43 <cheater> their rough estimate is 1 petabit per square cm and 1ns switching speeds
13:18:56 <ais523> programming's much the same whether you have petabytes on the clock chip or megabytes of external memory
13:22:14 <cheater> when you start being able to flop huge amounts of data around, your code will start looking completely different
13:22:29 <cheater> code will become more data-oriented and less functionality-oriented
13:23:44 <ais523> cheater: are you aware of the existence of mainframe computers?
13:23:48 <Deewiant> My point would've been that the existence remains uninteresting until you get to program for existing computers that contain such hardware
13:24:11 <ais523> they're used for heavily data-oriented processing atm
13:24:51 <cheater> ais523: they can't do it with such ease
13:25:32 <ais523> cheater: all this is going to do is to keep Moore's Law-like rules on track
13:25:38 <ais523> computers get faster all the time, we know that
13:25:47 <ais523> I could link you to a video about programming GPUs, if I had one
13:26:02 <ais523> that's pretty different from programming CPUs, too, and many people seem to think that's the future of computing
13:27:40 <nooga> GPUs are like tiny supercomputers for floating point operations
13:29:57 <cheater> ais523: the thing is, the cpus have historically been faster than the memory
13:30:09 <cheater> ais523: this *ratio* is what changes the paradigm
13:30:26 <ais523> recently they've been faster than the memory
13:30:31 <cheater> ais523: if cpus were still working at khz speeds and disks were as fast as they are now, the paradigm would be that.
13:30:32 <ais523> before that, though, the memory was faster
13:30:36 <cheater> i'm talking about persistent memory
13:30:52 <ais523> cheater: there isn't really a fundamental difference
13:30:57 <ais523> as you can persist RAM on power-off if you like
13:31:41 <ais523> no, and the reason you don't is that in 99% of cases it doesn't matter
13:31:43 <cheater> if this became the state of the art it would be different and people would learn from it, but it isn't, so they don't, hence there's no development in areas that can make use of this
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13:35:45 <ais523> cheater: would it surprise you if I told you I'd worked on systems which could write to persistent memory as quickly as they could read main memory?
13:35:56 <ais523> and as quickly as they could add two registers?
13:36:32 <cheater> but my comment about popularity still applies
13:37:20 <ais523> cheater: whatever's most popular is whatever Microsoft's favourite programming language for other people to write Windows apps is at that time
13:37:21 <ais523> with a timelag of a couple of years or so
13:37:22 <ais523> this is unlikely to change in the near future
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20:49:32 <cpressey_away> Your Irony for Today: Software is the most expensive component of a system because it's the easiest to fix.
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21:00:36 <Gregor-P> On the sixth day, Lambda created the Y-combinator. And it was good.
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21:02:55 <Gregor-P> You don't appreciate [lambda] . Genesis?
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21:18:26 <AnMaster> <cpressey_away> Your Irony for Today: Software is the most expensive component of a system because it's the easiest to fix. <-- XD
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22:27:45 <cpressey> Are you there, Lambda? It's me, Chris
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22:41:20 <zzo38> At FreeGeek I was fixing a Python program, to make it send reports in a new way. But why does the "pydoc" program seems to run two different programs when it is tried to run?
22:46:24 <cpressey> Python developers seem to like like ad-hoc overloading.
22:47:16 <cpressey> "If <name> contains a '/', it is treated as a filename; if it names a directory, documentation is written for all the contents." ... what if it contains a '/' *and* names a directory?
22:49:08 <zzo38> for x in `seq 1024 1279`; do; nc -kl $x >> log.$x &; done
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22:49:22 <aliseiphone> Anyone know of a way to jailbreak an iPhone without a computer?
22:49:23 <zzo38> That is a shell-script for receiving the reports is it correct?
22:49:43 <aliseiphone> In the OS 1.3 days you could just go to jailbreakme.com.
22:54:35 <cpressey> Gnomes who would bake a saw into a cake for you
22:56:25 <aliseiphone> augur: Exploit in TIFF and then JPEG renderers.
22:56:53 <aliseiphone> It even showed a progress bar above the frozen browser as it jailbroke it.
22:57:29 <aliseiphone> You had to downgrade from 1.3, jailbreak it, then upgrade it to 1.3 again.
22:58:15 <aliseiphone> Anyway, I suppose nothing like that exists any more.
22:59:36 <aliseiphone> Apparently I'll be a daypatient by the holidays - after next week.
22:59:57 <cpressey> That's a definite improvement.
23:00:01 <aliseiphone> And I hear murmurings about only coming in three days a week too.
23:01:03 * Sgeo guesses that if it weren't for breaking their rules, they wouldn't see an improvement because you'd have gone insane
23:01:30 <aliseiphone> Then by September I'll be discharged to that mini-unit in the local high school. Which will be much more tolerable: focused only on school and apparently a later start to the day will be arranged because of my mortal hatred of mornings.
23:02:02 <aliseiphone> It's just fucking GCSEs. They're not exactly hard.
23:02:21 <Sgeo> And social environment, I'd assume
23:02:48 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, it's HS?
23:03:49 <aliseiphone> Well, yes. Also known as "Hell" for all you nerds out there. But I'll be based in the mini unit thing apparently, so that won't have much of an effect *shrug*
23:04:10 <aliseiphone> By and large, people my age are fucking idiots. Have you noticed?
23:04:26 <Sgeo> For me, people stopped being assholes in, 9th grade I think
23:04:43 <aliseiphone> Meh. Just nine months then bullshit ceases.
23:05:09 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: You have to seriously consider the possibility that you simply became too much like them.
23:06:24 <aliseiphone> Anyway, I'm approximately nothing like almost all 14 year olds.
23:06:55 <aliseiphone> My mother actually went to the HS when it was a grammar school. Clearly gnomes are involved.
23:09:25 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Yak Linux?
23:10:55 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I figure yaks are basically the same as rams.
23:11:35 <aliseiphone> Therefore my RAM distro shall be called Yak Linux.
23:12:02 <aliseiphone> pikhq: MLterm as default terminal. There, you love it now.
23:12:17 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Not really; I have sense developed hatred for MLterm.
23:12:23 <pikhq> It's got very nice text rendering.
23:12:32 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it sucks as a terminal.
23:13:07 <pikhq> It treats bold background colors *strangely*, and WHY THE HELL WOULD IT TREAT THE ALT KEY THAT WAY
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23:14:09 <pikhq> It spontaneously decided to treat it as Alt-Gr.
23:14:50 <pikhq> Oh, and its treatment of fonts sucks major ass.
23:14:53 * Sgeo endorses cmd.exe
23:14:55 <pikhq> You can tell it which font to use.
23:14:57 <cpressey> Damn, and here I thought it was a terminal app *written in* ML.
23:14:58 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: The Alt key favoured by dogs and bears.
23:15:07 <pikhq> THERE ARE NO FREAKING FONTS THAT COVER ALL OF UNICODE.
23:15:12 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Currently, urxvt.
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23:15:32 <Sgeo> There should be
23:15:34 <pikhq> No, that's just the BMP.
23:15:43 <Sgeo> What about the reference .. thingies in the Unicode thing?
23:15:44 <pikhq> aliseiphone: That was just annoying as hell.
23:16:11 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I don't recall.
23:16:16 <pikhq> I stopped using it in 15 minutes.
23:16:53 <pikhq> st doesn't handle Unicode or xft.
23:17:00 <pikhq> Otherwise, quite nice.
23:17:28 <pikhq> Seriously, all I want in a terminal is Unicode handling, xft handling, and VT100 emulation.
23:17:47 <aliseiphone> pikhq: The problem is that vt100 sucks huge donkey balls and Unicode just, uh, rips the balls off.
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23:18:09 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I don't think you understand.
23:18:16 <aliseiphone> RTL? But this BYTE is in THIS cell, not THAT one!
23:18:31 <pikhq> Not-Unicode is like unto genocide.
23:18:48 <pikhq> Unicode ripping balls off is a major, major step in the right direction!
23:19:15 <pikhq> Ohright. It's char based.
23:19:15 <aliseiphone> Proper Unicode support, this interacting properly with VT100. Pick one.
23:19:41 <cpressey> Right, and a char is a byte right??? Jeez.
23:19:51 <aliseiphone> And if a byte is in a grid cell, ie in byte order, it must be shown there.
23:20:09 <aliseiphone> Can't just move cells around! Thus RTL dies.
23:20:34 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, there are no terminal types for a terminal emulator to support that allow for Unicode to be done right.
23:20:46 <aliseiphone> Conclusion: Use a proper fucking IRC client.
23:21:06 <pikhq> aliseiphone: IRC is not the only place where I've got Unicode text.
23:21:21 <pikhq> Anyways: conclusion. Fuck. Terminals.
23:21:25 <aliseiphone> Dumb dumb terminal with advanced editing capabilities.
23:21:39 <pikhq> Not "fuck text-based interfaces". Just fuck terminals.
23:21:46 <aliseiphone> You could even detect a curses program and go into Stupid Mode.
23:22:10 <zzo38> Unicode works OK in PuTTY
23:22:12 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, do there exist any tools, legal or not, for converting Amazon eBooks into ePub or another format?
23:22:13 <aliseiphone> Just make a termcap of terminfo or whatever.
23:22:19 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Example of a proper IRC client, BTW?
23:22:23 <zzo38> (PuTTY emulates xterm terminal, I think)
23:22:26 <Sgeo> I might get a Kindle for free soon, and switch to a decent eReader later
23:22:36 <pikhq> zzo38: mlterm is the only thing that handles RTL right that I've found.
23:22:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Uhh... XChat. It's shit but what can you do.
23:22:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Ugggghhghghghghghn
23:23:03 * pikhq has half a mind to create an IRC client now
23:23:08 <zzo38> I am using PuTTY for IRC and it can receive Unicode
23:23:17 <aliseiphone> pikhq: XChat-GNOME commits slightly fewer crimes against humanity in the UI department.
23:23:19 <zzo38> (If it is configured correctly)
23:23:24 <zzo38> I don't know about RTL works or not, however.
23:23:27 <cpressey> pikhq: Combine IRC client and terminal emulator in one program and you've got my support
23:24:05 <pikhq> Y'know, irssi *is* far too complex of an IRC client.
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23:24:10 <pikhq> Requires freaking glib.
23:24:26 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe PHIRC is less complex of an IRC client.
23:24:30 <cpressey> Back when I did that sort of thing on that sort of OS I used "tinyirc"
23:24:36 <aliseiphone> I know! I'll write an IRC client. Not like I have enough projects.
23:24:36 <pikhq> Not GTK. Just glib.
23:24:46 <pikhq> It uses Gobject but not GTK!
23:24:54 * Sgeo decides not to say "Thanks in advance"
23:24:58 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Smuxi is an IRC client. Also, Quassel?
23:25:27 <cpressey> pikhq: I think I've seen Qt apps that use Gobject now.
23:25:43 <pikhq> cpressey: AAAAAAAAGHMAKEITSTOP
23:25:52 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Now imagine if irssi required *GTK*.
23:26:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: *shudder*
23:26:40 <pikhq> aliseiphone: One of my major complaints with most GUI IRC clients I've tried is that they are unfriendly towards keyboard-only usage.
23:27:01 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Keyboard-based GUI is my specialty.
23:27:27 <pikhq> This is, in fact, why I use any TUI programs at all.
23:27:48 <pikhq> Because I want a keyboard as the primary interface for pretty much everything textual.
23:28:05 <zzo38> I use keyboard a lot for any things too, if I can type fast, I can operate the computer fast
23:28:12 <aliseiphone> "/ j space" vs "Ctrl+J". And the latter way you can SEND LINES BEGINNING WITH / WITHOUT RAGING.
23:28:49 <pikhq> Okay, I can totally accept combos for commands.
23:28:53 <aliseiphone> "/j" is like JOIN MODE. LIKE VI. MODAL. YOU LIKE EMACS.
23:29:00 <zzo38> aliseiphone: I don't know what you meant?
23:29:23 <zzo38> I don't know what "/ j space" vs "Ctrl+J" means.
23:29:38 <zzo38> And what it means send lines beginning with / without raging.
23:30:13 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, and those commands will replace the input line with e.g. "Join: [ ... ]". Enter with no input or esc goes back to previous input line.
23:30:29 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Mmmmmm.
23:30:31 <zzo38> I can already send lines beginning with / by putting "/RAW :" at the front and CTRL+P CTRL+M CTRL+P CTRL+J at the end.
23:30:32 * Sgeo is happy that he'll soon be able to offload his largish MIDI file collection
23:31:00 <zzo38> (This is also the only to send lines beginning with lowercase letters)
23:31:02 <cheater> i can send lines beginning with / by inserting just two additional characters
23:31:13 <Sgeo> XChat lets me do // to start a line with /
23:31:24 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Aaaand... How many widgets would this UI have?
23:31:47 <cheater> but my version works in all irc clients
23:31:47 <zzo38> All IRC commands begin with letters anyways? Not a slash?
23:32:11 <Sgeo> /msg #esoteric /stuff should also work in all IRC clients
23:32:14 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Names callable up with a command, like irssi.
23:32:17 <Sgeo> /stuff should also work in all IRC clients
23:32:29 <Sgeo> /me wonders if SAY is universal to most IRC clients
23:32:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I say no to channel list. Why should I always see the list of channels all the time?
23:32:33 <cheater> is the smalltalk debugger really cool?
23:32:48 <pikhq> All I care about as far as channels go is when a channel has *activity*.
23:32:53 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Easy switching? Notification of messages?
23:33:00 <nooga> prawns with mayo and cucumber <3
23:33:03 <pikhq> I'm freaking pressing a simple combo for switching anyways.
23:33:15 <aliseiphone> Having UIs pop up and stuff sucks from a HCI perspective.
23:33:19 <pikhq> For instance, this is Alt-4, #haskell is Alt-8, and #haskell-blah is Alt-9.
23:33:24 <zzo38> But there should be no need to send a line beginning with a lowercase letter to the server, IRC is case-insensitive anyways.
23:33:29 <zzo38> (Except for modes)
23:33:48 <pikhq> When there's activity I just get a *number* showing up in the status line.
23:34:08 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Yes; IMO that's xchat's worst flaw.
23:34:19 <zzo38> PHIRC does not currently support multiple windows but I might add that feature in a later version of PHIRC
23:34:39 <aliseiphone> The channel list would be discrete. Perhaps you'll grow to like it?
23:35:06 <pikhq> Believe me, I genuinely hate channel lists.
23:35:19 <zzo38> Channel list? The channel list is generally too long if you use the LIST command
23:35:33 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Because they suck. Mine would be actually useful. :P
23:35:47 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Is it more than 20 pixels of UI space?
23:35:55 <pikhq> Yes? Sorry, inferior.
23:36:02 <zzo38> aliseiphone: What does "AnMastering" means?
23:36:18 <cpressey> I'm only on one channel. Why do I need a list?
23:36:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Okay, okay. About 1 cm^2.
23:36:24 <aliseiphone> Also, please note that irssi's UI /sucks/.
23:36:50 <zzo38> aliseiphone: That is why I use PHIRC instead.
23:36:57 <cpressey> Well, modulo aspect ratio, of course.
23:37:01 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Believe me. I know how to conserve and utilise UI space properly.
23:37:12 <pikhq> One thing I do like about it is that hardly anything is shown. Hardly anything at all.
23:37:24 <pikhq> There are literally *two lines* here that aren't the channel text.
23:37:25 <cpressey> aliseiphone: You must use tabs, of course.
23:37:31 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, and the channel text would be typographically nice.
23:37:55 <pikhq> aliseiphone: That's a killer feature right there.
23:38:14 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Line spacing. Message spacing. Consistent colour scheme. Thought out indentations wrt message authors.
23:38:25 <pikhq> Say, could you also convince a web browser dev to make text typographically nice?
23:38:26 <cpressey> I want the channel text to recede into the distance like the Star Wars opening.
23:38:29 <zzo38> PHIRC has no lines other than the IRC lines (usually channel text, but if you are not on a channel it could be something else)
23:38:32 <aliseiphone> But when you copy-paste, it'll turn into <foo> bar style.
23:38:47 <pikhq> I mean, at the very least, *render text well*?
23:39:01 <Sgeo> The game will not just have a production world
23:39:10 <Sgeo> As soon as it opens, we'll get a separate world for testing
23:40:14 * pikhq really, really wants ligatures in his text
23:40:15 <aliseiphone> pikhq: How about we kill the freetype devs fiest?
23:40:50 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Patent law.
23:40:58 <cpressey> Why is all the popular stuff crap, anyway?
23:41:10 <cpressey> It's like crap attracts asshole guardians.
23:41:16 <zzo38> Patent law should be abolished (in my opinion)
23:42:18 <zzo38> Do you think PHIRC is a good IRC client?
23:42:34 <pikhq> aliseiphone: What's amazing is that things fail at rendering *English* text correctly.
23:42:44 <pikhq> This is one of the easiest things to handle right.
23:42:58 <zzo38> aliseiphone: But trademark is good thing
23:43:02 <cpressey> aliseiphone: That doesn't change the fact I've never used it.
23:43:05 <zzo38> But patent is bad thing
23:43:16 <pikhq> The fonts literally have instructions saying "If the following sequence is being asked for, render this glyph instead."
23:43:28 <pikhq> *All the logic for ligatures is given in the font!*
23:43:29 <cpressey> Patents are the most corrupt form of IP. I figure we can start looking at the others after patents are gone.
23:43:36 <aliseiphone> Patents and copyright are evil. Trademarks are good.
23:43:37 <zzo38> cpressey: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PHIRC/phirc.zip
23:43:40 <pikhq> And that's *all* they have to do!
23:43:47 <pikhq> Follow simple instructions!
23:44:03 <pikhq> But no, of course they can't do that.
23:44:46 <cpressey> zzo38: I'll see if I can get it running (this is not guaranteed)
23:45:12 <zzo38> cpressey: It requires PHP and PuTTY.
23:45:22 <pikhq> aliseiphone: No need for LD_PRELOAD.
23:45:25 <cpressey> Er... last I had the stomach to watch FreeBSD dev, they were all about the yammering about capability security.
23:45:48 <zzo38> To connect, type in "/C <host> <port>"
23:46:01 <pikhq> My pipe dream is to have text rendering not suck.
23:46:12 <zzo38> The space-bar at the start of a line is a shortcut to send a message to the current channel.
23:46:40 <zzo38> If your command is "PASS" it will display the parameter as asterisks (but will still send it as you typed it)
23:47:14 <cpressey> My pipe dream is to have enough spare time to complete my next esolang.
23:47:19 <pikhq> Everyone: y'know TeX? IT DID IT ALL RIGHT.
23:47:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I have TeX installed
23:47:52 <pikhq> USE TeX AS INSPIRATION FOR HOW TO RENDER TEXT.
23:48:03 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Doing complex dynamic programming every time you resize the window?
23:48:15 <zzo38> I can use TeX to print out C programs
23:48:39 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Pleasepleasepleaseplease.
23:48:54 <zzo38> Now Enhanced CWEB will support meta-macros and pre-pre-pre-processor and 'pataprogramming.
23:49:13 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Now try continuous window resizing.
23:49:27 <zzo38> And then see which people prefer standard CWEB or Enhanced CWEB. (Including Knuth)
23:49:47 * pikhq wants justified text do be done right...
23:49:54 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, and TeX requires the whole global context to work?
23:50:06 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I'm saying use it for inspiration.
23:50:13 <aliseiphone> Impractical for many things like web browsers.
23:50:14 <pikhq> *It renders text correctly*.
23:50:26 <cpressey> No! The status quo works just fine! JUST FINE.
23:50:33 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Using things that are impractical for desktop apps.
23:50:43 <pikhq> Nothing else even seems to attempt to.
23:50:56 <zzo38> I think TeX works, but apparently there is lack of blackboard bold in TeX?
23:51:27 <pikhq> Ah, yes. *roff does a decent job.
23:51:53 <zzo38> But CWEB uses Plain TeX. Is there a way to add it into Plain TeX?
23:52:00 * pikhq would also, while we're at it, like to *purge MS Word from the face of the planet*.
23:52:08 <cpressey> So-called "characters" are obsolete, anyway. The truly advanced among us are already communicating with smudges and quiet yelps.
23:52:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I have seen justified text rendered by MS Word. It HURTS.
23:52:34 <pikhq> It actually makes for lines with more space than text sometimes.
23:53:07 <pikhq> Amusingly, typesetting is actually easy to do for CJK...
23:53:17 <aliseiphone> Lovely seeing "fi" in Century Schoolbook in print. It's like the serifs are raping each other.
23:53:54 <cheater> alise do u know anything about smalltalk?
23:54:13 <cheater> is the debugger really all it's made out to be?
23:54:19 * Sgeo wonders if he should look at smalltalk again
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23:54:56 <Sgeo> What really struck me last time is that for some things, there was no syntax other than "do it in the IDE". The IDE itself sent code to an object as text
23:54:58 <aliseiphone> Not in gnu smalltalk obviously but squeak, visualworks yes
23:55:13 <cheater> what other debuggers are comparable to it?
23:55:42 <Sgeo> I remember seeing in Reddit something about some.. VM, I guess? that was simpler than Squeak
23:55:56 <cpressey> Debuggers suck almost universally. Can't say for smalltalk.
23:56:05 <aliseiphone> They irritate me. I prefer good error messages and ... printf.
23:56:26 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Clearly, we agree on debuggers as well as Logo.
23:56:33 <cheater> yeah printf debugging is ok, but doesn't always work that well
23:56:41 <cheater> try to printf debug drupal
23:56:48 <cpressey> If there was a debugger that wasn't annoying, I'd use it, but there isn't.
23:56:53 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Let's write an OS in Logo without a debugger.
23:57:10 <Sgeo> Used to never use debuggers until this large C# project
23:57:11 <cheater> aliseiphone: yes, that's what i did
23:57:19 <cheater> #1 reason why i stopped doing fucking php
23:57:30 <Sgeo> Now I'm addicted
23:57:33 <AnMaster> cpressey, to look at a segfault a debugger might be your best option. gdb is quite nice for getting a stack trace in such a situation
23:57:39 <cheater> Sgeo: explain how they were useful
23:58:11 <Sgeo> For one, don't need to restart the whole program to see something, if I know what I think a problem line will come up, I can set a breakpoint
23:58:13 <cpressey> Using gdb is like nails on a chalkboard
23:58:16 <AnMaster> cpressey, and I can't say gdb ever annoyed me
23:58:24 <aliseiphone> Never ever need a debugger in a non-C language.
23:58:32 <cpressey> Using gdb is like nails on a chalkboard while stuck in rush-hour traffic
23:58:40 <aliseiphone> C, need it all the time. But I'm not a bad C coder.
23:58:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, it is better than nothing when you face a segfault
23:59:22 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, s/C/compiled non-purely-functional-language/?
00:00:57 * pikhq should write something that will display a plain text file well.
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00:01:30 <AnMaster> I should write map, foldl, filter and so on for C hm
00:01:36 <pikhq> Y'know what? Actually, screw it.
00:01:50 <pikhq> I should feed it all to TeX.
00:02:08 * pikhq imagines HTML->TeX
00:03:02 <aliseiphone> pikhq: PrinceXML is an HTML to PDF thing written in the prolog esque purely functional Mercury. Apparently it well.
00:03:16 <aliseiphone> So there's a good HTML typesetter for you.
00:03:48 <aliseiphone> Closed source and costs lots for commercial use though.
00:05:56 <pikhq> Free for non-commercial use...
00:10:32 * pikhq wishes Project Gutenberg's text was not stuck into ASCII.
00:10:44 <pikhq> With the straight quotes...
00:10:58 <pikhq> Makes it more of a pain to force into TeX.
00:11:34 <Ilari> The only non-obsolete character set for transport encoding is UTF-8. :-)
00:11:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, as long as there are no nested quotes there should be no issues
00:12:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still...
00:12:55 <pikhq> Basically I'll need to write a freaking parser.
00:13:12 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I have a beautifully typeset The Metamorphosis.
00:13:38 * pikhq looks at Wikisource to see if it's less painful.
00:14:28 <pikhq> *Still* straight quotes there.
00:15:18 <pikhq> Also annoying: One needs to essentially manually handle chapters and headings.
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00:17:00 <pikhq> aliseiphone: So, how'd you manage that typesetting?
00:17:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, why do straight quotes hurt?
00:17:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, Swedish use the same slanted quotes for both opening and closing for example
00:17:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: For input to TeX.
00:17:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, well you can escape the quotes
00:18:07 <benuphoenix> Am I wanted here? If not, I'll leave on my own.
00:18:16 <pikhq> benuphoenix: You're not *un*wanted.
00:22:04 <benuphoenix> i accidently returned to my former nature as "destroyer of conversations" earlier today on a different channel, different network, so I don't wanna make the same mistakes here.
00:23:55 <AnMaster> doesn't sound that esoteric either. A bit messy at most
00:24:25 <AnMaster> write one in C then compile it to bf with gcc-bf
00:25:15 <AnMaster> considering that hello world from gcc-bf is over 1 MB, that should be fun
00:26:38 <AnMaster> benuphoenix, runlength encoded that is
00:27:06 * Sgeo cuts and pastes some code
00:27:10 <AnMaster> of course hello world can be a lot shorter
00:27:26 <EgoBot> 112 ++++++++++[>+++++++>+>++++++++++>+++<<<<-]>++.>>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.<<. [542]
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00:28:39 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>. [27]
00:29:11 <EgoBot> 38 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.>-. [39]
00:29:28 <Sgeo> Java enforces one public class per file?
00:29:37 <AnMaster> benuphoenix, this uses some genetic algorithm building on the basic for <initial loop counter> <loop to generate multiples of that counter> <output plus +/->
00:29:39 <Sgeo> That's one rule that I should have stuck to here
00:30:03 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I may be entirely mistaken
00:30:38 <AnMaster> benuphoenix, a human writng the code my hand will likely be more efficient. Oh and it appends a newline at the end
00:32:27 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Ohmygoodness enabling historical ligatures produces awesome output.
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00:35:58 <aliseiphone> Also, I used the Gutenberg Metamorphosis and manually did the quotes.
00:36:26 <pikhq> And how'd you get ahold of Garamond?
00:39:21 <benuphoenix> i don't know why i didn't have one installed on this machine...
00:44:13 <benuphoenix> i mean, which is better: hs-brainfuck or nbfc?
00:46:58 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Anyways. XeTeX is absolutely wonderful.
00:49:42 <pikhq> benuphoenix: Should all be reasonable.
00:52:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How so?
00:53:11 <aliseiphone> See microtype package for all the fancy stuff xetex can do without it. Therefore xetex is basically only good for Unicode, not typography.
00:53:35 <pikhq> Microtype makes TeX handle Opentype fonts?
00:53:37 <aliseiphone> TeX proper knows more about it's fonts rather than xetex since it "natively" supports them
00:54:10 <aliseiphone> Meanwhile, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_(word_processor)
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01:40:58 <Sgeo> benuphoenix, did you get my msg?
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04:10:30 <Gregor> If somebody was to go back over my profile pictures, they would have to conclude that I have for some reason taken up the habit of wearing pink ties every day.
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04:36:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Random technical question: How do OSes detect things like attempts to access illegal addresses?
04:39:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Page fault.
04:39:33 <pikhq> You access an unmapped page, the kernel gets told, the kernel discovers it's a page that's not supposed to be mapped, SIGSEGV.
04:40:14 <pikhq> And yes, this means if you access an unallocated address that *happens* to be mapped, the kernel doesn't notice.
04:41:47 * pikhq comes to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a good computer typesetting tool
04:42:03 <pikhq> TeX is the closest, but it's not perfect for non-Western scripts.
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04:56:26 <Gregor> I think I actually need to record another WIPP.
04:56:28 <Gregor> I've added like a minute.
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05:42:38 <Sgeo> Once, when my computer was not working, I remember reading that some people almost consider emacs to be an OS
05:42:55 <Sgeo> I was wondering if I could just put the emacs disc in and boot from there
05:43:06 <Sgeo> [I was a kid back then, and have never heard of a LiveCD]
05:43:33 <Sgeo> !bf ++++[>++++[>++++<-]<-]>>+.
05:44:14 <pikhq> Emacs is very much an OS.
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06:12:04 <pikhq> "The common law of England, insofar as it is not repugnant to the principles of the Bill of Rights and Constitution of this Commonwealth, shall continue in full force within the same, and be the rule of decision, except as altered by the General Assembly." -- Virginia constitution.
06:12:12 <pikhq> English law applies in Virginia.
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06:37:04 <pikhq> For a few centuries that's all the law there was.
06:39:22 <pikhq> Okay, okay. And the king's word.
06:40:52 <coppro> what I find interesting, though
06:41:05 <coppro> is that it does not specify a temporal restriction
06:41:27 <coppro> meaning that one could use modern English court cases in Virginia
06:41:38 <coppro> (but not, apparently, Scottish ones)
06:41:58 <pikhq> Scotland doesn't have common law, anyways.
06:42:06 <pikhq> (they run a civil law system)
06:43:02 <pikhq> I find the legal framework under which the UK runs very, very odd.
06:43:55 <coppro> which may be a reason for the oddness
06:44:16 <pikhq> I should specify: the one that makes it a United Kingdom, rather than nations sharing a monarch.
06:45:21 <coppro> I wonder if England will devolve
06:45:53 <coppro> honestly, the UK needs major constitional reform
06:46:14 <pikhq> Oh. Partly did. See how England does not have its own parliament.
06:46:40 <coppro> I wonder if England will get its own parliament
06:47:10 <pikhq> And yeah, the UK needs major constitutional reform.
06:47:15 <pikhq> Such as "having a constitution".
06:47:54 <coppro> while we're at it, fixing the Succession Act would be peachy
06:49:02 <coppro> that would be pretty incredible to do, though
06:49:18 <pikhq> Hmm. If a *court* in the UK were to randomly declare that not having gay marriage were against the US constitution, I think that would legalise gay marriage in Virginia.
06:49:32 <coppro> pikhq: Nah, that's not common law
06:49:37 <coppro> just interpretation of statue law
06:50:01 <coppro> (common law is stupid)
06:50:15 <pikhq> Common law is crazier than that.
06:50:52 <coppro> common law is law that was made up by the courts before statutes were invented, then reinterpreted and remodeled into something vaguely consistent
06:50:53 <pikhq> Okay, okay. Randomly declare that the punishment for being a Virginian in Virginia shall be a fine of 1 pound per second. :P
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16:27:00 <leBMD> Well, I'm late to the party, but I only just now started using Befunge.
16:27:12 <ais523> everyone has to learn sometime
16:27:16 <ais523> otherwise, they'd never learn at all
16:27:18 <ais523> and that would be really boring
16:27:41 <leBMD> I'm pretty happy with my self, because I've already made hello world and an odd or even program.
16:28:20 <leBMD> a self-restarting odd or even program, that is.
16:29:02 <ais523> fungot: say hi to leBMD
16:29:03 <fungot> ais523: so you'll have cpan. perl5 has no macros and continuations?... is preserved to be passed in from the wild blue yonder and smacked into 9 millions of years ago
16:29:08 <ais523> fungot's written in Befunge too
16:29:09 <fungot> ais523: try doing the odbc, but quickly decided not to pursue mit. :) :( ( font issues)? xpdf?
16:29:16 <ais523> it's one of the better esolangs for large projects
16:29:31 <leBMD> what interpreter do you use?
16:29:45 <ais523> when I use Befunge, mostly FBBI or Cfunge
16:29:50 <leBMD> I've got Wasabi and BeQunge, but I've been using Wasabi, because BeQunge is a little too flashy for me.
16:30:05 <ais523> I'll get the name eventually
16:30:15 <ais523> unless Deewiant corrects me first
16:31:13 <ais523> did I actually get it right in the end?
16:31:36 <leBMD> do you combine that with an ide, or do you just use notepad?
16:32:08 <ais523> notepad is woefully inadequate for most programming
16:32:16 <leBMD> ocne upon a time I had emacs
16:33:04 <leBMD> I generally use Notepad++ for such things as asciiportal mapping, so I'll use it for befunge.
16:34:35 <Deewiant> BeQunge's interpreter is buggy, I don't recommend it
16:36:43 <Deewiant> For -98 interpreters, the properly working ones are CCBI, cfunge, and pyfunge; the mostly good ones (for "normal uses") are Language::Befunge, Rc/Funge-98, and Stinkhorn
16:38:21 <leBMD> hm, when I drag my program over CCBI, it flashes onto the screen and dissapears again.
16:38:35 <Deewiant> Command-line programs tend to do that
16:38:53 <leBMD> there, I just put & before @
16:39:06 <Deewiant> Yes, that's the lazy solution :-P
16:39:56 <leBMD> does emacs have a plugin or script (or whatever) that automatically inputs spaces into your file so that you don't have to be like "okay, this is going down...SPACESPACESPACESPACESPACE"?
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16:41:51 <leBMD> Deewiant, what do you use?
16:42:09 <leBMD> hm, I've never heard of it. I'll have to look into that.
16:43:08 <Deewiant> It works differently to most other editors and therefore has a bit of a learning curve; some people like it, others don't
16:49:33 <leBMD> O_o, I opened up gvim and I have no idea what's going on...
16:50:42 <Deewiant> You should open vimtutor first
16:50:58 <leBMD> there is no vimtutor
16:51:08 <Deewiant> On MS-Windows you can find it in the Program/Vim menu. Or execute
16:51:08 <Deewiant> vimtutor.bat in the $VIMRUNTIME directory.
16:51:48 <leBMD> oh wait, I forgot to get resources. XD
16:51:58 <leBMD> NOW I know what the problem is.
16:53:19 <Deewiant> IIRC $VIMRUNTIME is under the directory you installed it on Windows, called "vim72"
16:53:37 <Deewiant> So typically program files\vim\vim72
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16:54:06 <leBMD> I didn't use the installer, though. So, I'm just going to shove my way through and see what happens.
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17:04:15 <leBMD> Well, I've got it working just fancy.
17:04:35 <leBMD> Do you use any macros or anything for when you make befunge files?
17:08:03 <leBMD> is there a way to just move around regardless of lines or spaces?
17:10:07 <Deewiant> Visual block mode (ctrl-V) allows inserting and selecting stuff like that
17:11:21 <Deewiant> Is what you're looking for, I believe
17:12:25 <Deewiant> I haven't used it myself, although it probably would've been handy sometimes
17:13:36 <AnMaster> <leBMD> I've got Wasabi and BeQunge, but I've been using Wasabi, because BeQunge is a little too flashy for me. <-- no idea about the first one. But the second one is definitely not standard compliant
17:14:26 <Deewiant> It's probably a fine editor though
17:14:47 <Deewiant> It's just its interpreter you shouldn't use
17:15:32 <AnMaster> <leBMD> does emacs have a plugin or script (or whatever) that automatically inputs spaces into your file so that you don't have to be like "okay, this is going down...SPACESPACESPACESPACESPACE"?
17:15:39 <AnMaster> maybe you mean M-x picture-mode?
17:15:56 <leBMD> sure...(whatever that means)
17:16:11 <AnMaster> leBMD, well picture-mode lets you write in all cardinal directions
17:16:35 <AnMaster> leBMD, iirc vim doesn't have anything like it.
17:16:55 <Deewiant> Or for the cardinals, except east
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17:17:18 <Deewiant> Even notepad has it for east though, AFAIK :-P
17:17:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so how does vim handle right-to-left languages?
17:18:10 <Deewiant> It has reverse insert, not reverse replace, as I've said before
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17:20:33 <Phantom_Hoover> You can probably write funge-mode for Emacs, in any case.
17:26:41 <zzo38> When trying to prevent the ball from entering the left Game Over hole, don't push it so much so that the ball goes in the right Game Over hole instead.
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17:28:45 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know?
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17:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38: no, it looks like you just said that out of the blue.
17:30:10 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes because I was playing a pinball game and I got game over so I typed that
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17:31:33 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png Probably you can see the game over hole?
17:32:17 <zzo38> If the ball goes into one of the holes labeled "game over", then it is instantly game over, and you do not get to play the remaining balls.
17:32:59 <zzo38> But if you hit all of the trop targets on the top, the game over holes change to 500.
17:33:42 <zzo38> Have you ever build a pinball game?
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17:50:22 <cpressey> I built a Pachinko board in grade 6. A lame one, but, yeah.
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18:09:15 <cpressey> There's a RUBE example playfield which is basically a Pachinko board. Americans might be more familiar with it as "Plinko" from 'The Price is Right".
18:10:07 <ais523> hmm, who hosts The Price Is Right in the US?
18:10:33 <cpressey> Used to be Bob Barker. Last I saw, though, it was... Drew Carey?
18:10:44 <ais523> in the UK, it was famously Bruce Forsythe
18:11:00 <ais523> when it was still running
18:11:03 <cpressey> I didn't even know there was a UK version.
18:11:27 <ais523> I was vaguely surprised there was a US version, because it was so closely linked to the host in the UK
18:12:01 <ais523> according to Wikipedia, it was in the US first but has ended up all over the world
18:12:40 <zzo38> I want to build a pachinko one day. But I haven't done so yet
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18:14:58 <zzo38> A special kind of pachinko game, "kaitenmono", with you can turn it a few degrees from directly vertical, and push buttons to put electric charges on the metal pins, which also stops the slot machine spinning when you push a button, but you cannot electrify if is not spinning. Entering a hole also stops spinning all slotwheels. And then depending which hole is lit, you might get bonus points. Each hole worth different number of points (lit=doub
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18:15:29 <zzo38> And then if you match three numbers on slot machine you get another double
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18:21:51 <zzo38> CWEB has two modes, Tangle mode and Weave mode, but Enhanced CWEB should have a third mode for makefile mode.
18:22:15 <zzo38> Which is used in place of the "make" command and in place of normal makefiles.
18:22:46 <pikhq> Kaitenmono, BTW: "spinning thing".
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18:46:34 <cpressey> So, my CE would look like this. It's based on an extremely general rewriting language (like Treacle). But the implementation is based on only the *efficient subset* of that language, which contains only those rewriting rules that would be appropriate for e.g. Scheme. And this subset would look a lot like a mini pure Scheme. Probably without lambdas.
18:47:53 <cpressey> One level up, a "reactor" pattern wraps these terms, resulting in something like Erlang processes sending each other asynchronous messages. And every device in the system is modelled as a process which sends and receives asynchronous messages.
18:52:09 <cpressey> The devices that are available depend on the system that it's running on, of course. The most basic device would be a virtual teletype, which corresponds pretty closely with Unix's stdin/stdout.
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19:02:18 <cpressey> Then, somewhere along the way, there's a compiler that reduces terms in the excessively-general rewriting language, to terms in the efficient subset of that language. (Modern compilers for rewriting languages do similar things when compiling to native code.)
19:03:27 <cpressey> Going this route because one of the problems with the excessively-general rewriting language is that there is very little established work on "how to write usual programs in an excessively general rewriting language". That is to say, it's still being figured out, and it doesn't come naturally to me.
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19:08:40 <ais523> now you're making me wonder what efficient compilation of Thutu would look like
19:10:38 <cpressey> ais523: If you can get a copy of "Constraint Programming Languages: Their Specification and Generation" -- it describes the compilation of rewriting rules to efficient code that I'm thinking of. Basically it looks at all the rules head-first and makes a state machine, IIRC.
19:11:25 <ais523> hmm, Thutu uses regexps, which could make it rather harder
19:13:05 <cpressey> But I don't think it alters the theory much. One sec, there's an interesting article on this.
19:13:55 <cpressey> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
19:14:06 <cpressey> You may have already seen it, I suspect.
19:14:40 <ais523> actually, the main inefficiency in Thutu is the rewriting itself, because there's a defined order to try the rules in
19:16:11 <ais523> cpressey: I'm not sure if I've seen that exact webpage before
19:16:16 <ais523> but I'm aware of the general principle
19:22:36 <cpressey> ais523: I can't see anything offhand about Thutu that would make the rewriting itself inefficient, but of course I've only skimmed the esowiki page. If by the rewriting itself you mean everything that happens after a pattern has matched, it's usually just a couple of pointer adjustments and possibly memcpy's.
19:22:50 <ais523> cpressey: it's the memcpy that's the issue
19:22:59 <ais523> it basically makes everything worse by an order of n
19:23:04 <cpressey> Well, if you're forced to have them, yes.
19:23:30 <cpressey> I know there are algorithms for "optimal term sharing" that provably minimize the number of memcpy's you need when making a substitution of terms.
19:23:51 <cpressey> That's getting into scary stuff though, at least for me.
19:25:53 <cpressey> Anyway, in the world of "modern programming" (read: object oriented or scripting languages), people are constructing objects all the time, often as copies, without thinking about it. But if you care about that comparison, the original reason to make an efficient implementation loses a lot of steam anyway.
19:28:26 <cpressey> Ah, my kingdom for a Sufficiently Clever Compiler[tm].
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20:01:32 <cpressey> So, an audit of all our websites at work, because of a gigantic refactor to the codebase I made.
20:02:40 <cpressey> Well, "because" is too strong a word. It's more like the constant stream of phantom issues have a plausible scapegoat now.
20:09:36 <cpressey> (Just trying to make myself feel better, because I KNOW the code is less of a horrific mess now, and there was enough unknown crap floating around that it was high time for an audit anyway.)
20:11:37 <fizzie> Speaking of efficient regex-matching, flex (and its ilk) is also pretty good at that; it builds a single DFA (minimized, I believe; at least it does some NFA clean-up via equivalence classes; the DFA can still of course blow up exponentially, but usually doesn't) so that it can find the longest-matching-text regex without having to test them one by one.
20:16:03 <fizzie> I have to say I had absolutely no clue there *was* a "widespread belief that recursive backtracking is the only way to simulate an NFA"; certainly different ways to simulate a NFA, and algorithms for NFA-to-DFA conversion and DFA minimization (even in the context of regular expressions) were covered by the "introduction to theoretical computer science" course that I think is/was mandatory for most of our CS specialization choices.
20:17:24 <cpressey> The article is a little yippy in that respect, yes.
20:18:20 <fizzie> Perl has the "lots of features" excuse there; the regexps aren't very "regular" any more.
20:24:47 <Ilari> Bit of fun is finding explict class of n state NFAs, such that they will blow up to 2^n states when converted to DFAs and minimization fails to remove any states.
20:24:58 <cpressey> I think the "widespread belief" idea is that programmers think in terms of the libraries available to them (i.e. pcre) and not in terms of the CS they've learned.
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20:28:04 <fizzie> Oh, the article (or part three, at least) is partially about Google's code search; that's quasi-interesting too. I've wondered a couple of times whether there's some trickery involved there; no matter how good their regex library is, I still refuse to believe they can just match every submitted regex against all the code there is in the world, without doing some indexing-ish trickery.
20:28:59 <ais523> fizzie: there's an article about how Google made a regex library that had known worst-case performance, pretty much for that reason
20:29:03 <ais523> but I have no idea where it is
20:30:33 <Sgeo> "that reason"?
20:30:34 <fizzie> I believe that is exactly that "third part" of cpressey's linked article I mentioned.
20:30:51 <Sgeo> Ooh, I misunderstood what ais523 said
20:31:08 <fizzie> (At least it's what's linked from RE2's (the library) code.google.com intro-page.)
20:31:11 <Sgeo> Misread it as "performs horribly" instead of "we know that it will be this bad, and no worse"
20:32:41 <Sgeo> So, I have some webspace provided by a friend. I recently discovered that all of the html pages I uploaded had mysterious <script> things that I did not add. Is the malicious stuff more likely on his end, or my end manipulating things over FTP?
20:33:14 <fizzie> They've also written a backtrackingy (but automata-based optimization-applying) thing called "irregexp" for Chrome's javascript eggine.
20:33:33 <cpressey> Sgeo: Do you see this when you fetch the files from FTP, or just from HTTP?
20:33:44 <cpressey> Because my guess would be it's the server adding that tag
20:33:49 <Sgeo> cpressey, haven't tried fetching from FTP yet
20:34:27 <cpressey> Sgeo: I bet if you download them with FTP like you uploaded them you'll see they'rethe same files.
20:34:52 <Sgeo> We're about to find out
20:35:12 <cpressey> There was a computer science department newsletter once called "Regular Expressions". I thought that was a tidy pun.
20:35:26 <cpressey> Don't remember which uni this was from though.
20:35:45 <Sgeo> Nope, still there when fetched from FTP
20:36:08 <Sgeo> The weird thing is, as far as I can tell, the included stuff's blank
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20:36:22 <Sgeo> Unless my computer's infected, and blocking anything that looks like it
20:36:33 <Sgeo> Anyone want to check the source for me?
20:36:37 <cpressey> Sgeo: How well do you trust your friend? :)
20:36:41 <Sgeo> cpressey, a lot
20:36:53 <Sgeo> http://agespotcream.info/includes/index2.php <=== do NOT directly click. Just look at the source
20:37:24 <Sgeo> Actually, I tried it on my N1, same lack of source
20:37:36 <Sgeo> Hm, maybe it's my antivirus, come to.. wait, that doesn't run on the N1
20:37:48 <Sgeo> Maybe at the router level? Or maybe there really is nothing there
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20:38:32 <cpressey> Quite possibly really nothing there. Maybe ask your friend if his FTP server tries to "enhance" things that is uploaded to it...
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20:42:26 <fizzie> About the only relevant-ish google-hit I could quickly see was http://wam.dasient.com/wam/infection_library/de38a05b344331a853349f2be94797c0/agespotcream but that's not very content-rich.
20:44:34 <fizzie> (I get a zero-byte reply from that URL too.)
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20:55:47 <fizzie> Mhm, so they have in RE2 a thing that can convert "(hello|hi)world[a-z]+foo" into a boolean "(helloworld OR hiworld) AND foo"; it doesn't exactly say code search uses that to limit the amount of stuff to match regexps against, but it doesn't sound unlikely.
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22:42:55 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So, Tiny Core Linux has a desktop and a useful base set of programs in 10 MiB.
22:43:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Awesome.
22:43:43 <pikhq> It would appear to be glibc based.
22:43:44 <pikhq> Making it all the more impressive.
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22:44:43 <CakeProphet> what's the gconf setting that turns off mounted drives showing up on Desktop?
22:46:17 <CakeProphet> nevermind, found it. /apps/nautilus/desktop/volumes_visible
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22:52:05 <cpressey> aliseiphone: You missed CakeProphet answering his own question.
22:54:07 <cpressey> aliseiphone: gconf questions are not interesting enough to warrant that. Sorry.
22:55:04 <cpressey> If it was about lambda calculus or an actual esolang or something, sure, but there's way too much operational bullshit on this channel IMO.
22:56:03 <cpressey> I don't mean to be harsh, it's just that this channel often bores me lately.
22:58:01 <aliseiphone> cpressey: It's basically the hangout spot of some really clever people who like esolangs.
22:58:17 <pikhq> We're only rarely on topic. :)
22:58:25 <aliseiphone> It's a bit social sometimes. Especially when AnMaster's here.
22:58:49 <aliseiphone> But most of us are eccentric enough that our blab is interesting.
22:59:30 <pikhq> Is there one of us that *isn't* particularly eccentric?
22:59:35 <aliseiphone> On the other hand, we are pretty good at debugging computery things. Like asking Einstein to fix your science fair project.
22:59:57 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Orly?
22:59:58 <aliseiphone> He's boring, which is not an eccentricity.
23:00:13 <aliseiphone> He probably thinks himself eccentric though.
23:00:15 <Ilari> Heh... If someone wants to joke DNSSec being "next year" project, the mirroring of '.' with production keys is currently underway. :-)
23:00:50 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, yeah. Don't think he's done much that's eccentric.
23:00:58 <pikhq> Perhaps he should take up consuming dog food or something.
23:01:12 <pikhq> Or cool ties. Cool ties are always nice.
23:01:41 <pikhq> (yes, I know ties aren't eccentric. Wearing ties *because you feel like it* can be, however.)
23:01:42 <cpressey> *Consuming* cool ties would be quite eccentric indeed.
23:03:45 <Ilari> There was DNSKEY records with fake keys before, but the record values one currently gets (at least from some root servers) don't look fake.
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23:05:21 <aliseiphone> http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/tinyX01.html
23:07:09 <pikhq> Hmm. I'll giggle a lot if libc5 > glibc2.
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23:08:25 <aliseiphone> pikhq: all the libc revisions have just added bloat
23:08:35 * pikhq tries to find modern libc4
23:08:45 <Ilari> '. 86400 IN DNSKEY 256 3 8 AwEAAb1gcDhBlH/9MlgUxS0ik2dwY/JiBIpV+EhKZV7LccxNc6Qlj467QjHQ3Fgm2i2LE9w6LqPFDSng5qVq1OYFyTBt3DQppqDnAPriTwW5qIQNDNFv34yo63sAdBeU4G9tv7dzT5sPyAgmVh5HDCe+6XM2+Iel1+kUKCel8Icy19hR' (from root-J).
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23:10:34 <aliseiphone> pikhq:http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/libc/
23:10:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/libc/
23:11:10 <aliseiphone> I <3 David Parsons. He writes tons of good old style code and stuff.
23:13:12 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Works on 2.6?
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23:14:10 <aliseiphone> Mastodon, his distribution, is statically linked libc 4 on 2.2.
23:14:47 <aliseiphone> He created it when people were already using glibc on Linux 2.6.
23:15:05 <cpressey> mastodon.biz seems to... not have it
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23:16:23 <aliseiphone> Last release is many years old. He still uses it.
23:16:51 <cpressey> I would still be using FreeBSD 4.x if it supported USB.
23:17:11 <pikhq> *BSD* coreutils? Oooh.
23:17:17 <aliseiphone> cpressey: He's considering writing his own USB stack for 2.2 iirc.
23:18:55 <cpressey> Geez, at this point, mouse and keyboard at least... yes, I know the BIOS will fake those.
23:20:30 <aliseiphone> And do you use FreeBSD on your desktop? Cool.
23:20:34 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Not sure. Late 90s, I think.
23:21:00 <cpressey> When I had a desktop. All I have now is a crap laptop running Ubuntu something.
23:21:01 -!- augur|walkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:21:14 <cpressey> I had a desire to minimize hassle.
23:21:30 -!- wareya has joined.
23:21:32 <cpressey> It became no longer fun to fiddle with setting up shit.
23:21:33 <aliseiphone> Hey... We should make a distro based on 386BSD. If it was open source.
23:21:35 <pikhq> checking target system type... Invalid configuration `i386-pc-linux-libc4': machine `i386-pc-linux' not recognized
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23:21:46 <pikhq> GCC no longer supports i386-pc-linux-* ?
23:21:55 <wareya> Someone is trying to tell me that it's possible to make code faster than fully optimized native machine code.
23:22:17 <cpressey> aliseiphone: http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/ ?
23:22:25 <pikhq> wareya: Fully optimised is inherently the fastest.
23:22:27 <aliseiphone> *What about that mainline BSD release with x86 support? Is that open?
23:22:53 <cpressey> aliseiphone: granted, but an appropriate userland
23:23:18 <aliseiphone> cpressey: No, BSD is an appropriate userland :-)
23:25:26 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Always, according to Jolitz and Jolitz.
23:25:54 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Wasn't there an actual BSD release with x86 support?
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23:28:26 <pikhq> 4.4BSD-Lite apparently.
23:28:45 <pikhq> The last proper BSD release.
23:30:53 <cpressey> After that, things got decidedly Improper.
23:31:24 * pikhq downloads the source code, wondering if it CAN BE BUILT
23:32:21 <pikhq> ... Hey, 4.4 BSD would've actually included a C compiler, wouldn't it?
23:32:37 <pikhq> (rather than shoving in GCC)
23:32:57 <pikhq> Would've been... PCC.
23:32:59 <cpressey> I downloaded 4.4BSD once, never did anything with it though.
23:33:22 <pikhq> Clearly I should build myself a 4.4BSD with modern PCC.
23:34:30 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Unless it's GCC.
23:34:55 <pikhq> But yeah. PCC is the true and proper C compiler.
23:35:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I was thinking more "first version of 386BSD". Based on an older, less POSIXcrap BSD.
23:35:20 <Sgeo> <3 Commentary!
23:35:26 <aliseiphone> Or, y'know, "last good version of 386BSD".
23:37:26 <cpressey> Hot damn, I am totally going to try building PCC.
23:38:09 <pikhq> cpressey: Is easy.
23:38:11 <cpressey> If I can get it to build, I am totally going to see how many of my projects it can build.
23:38:15 <pikhq> ./configure&&make&&make install
23:38:21 <pikhq> And it should build most things.
23:38:29 <cpressey> pikhq: I expect it to be not so hard as TenDRA/Ten15, at least. Eeeuh.
23:38:30 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Its a modern, maintained compiler.
23:38:39 <CakeProphet> question: is (terminating) recursion possible in mathematics without a notion of conditional expression?
23:38:51 <pikhq> Last I checked OpenBSD had plans to switch to it.
23:38:53 <aliseiphone> cpressey: The BSDs are seriously looming at it.
23:39:00 <cpressey> I just wonder why I didn't consider it when looking for a BSD-licensed C compiler in previous years.
23:39:07 <pikhq> NetBSD's on the fence, and FreeBSD's going for LLVM.
23:39:10 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: Does implication count as a conditional?
23:39:17 <cpressey> Like when I was involved with DragonflyBSD.
23:39:30 <pikhq> (also BSD licensed, much more complex, but also got uberoptimisation sauce.)
23:39:45 * cpressey mutters something about ricers
23:40:17 <olsner> how boring of freebsd, going with the cool/hot llvm and clang... I expect BSDs to be more esoteric than that
23:40:19 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: not that I know of. I don't really know what implication is formally. In every use I've seen I simply substitute it with equality and the original meaning seems to remain.
23:40:35 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Yes, because for example x * 0 = 0.
23:40:49 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Not really.
23:41:04 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: No. I'm just an American. We learn different things.
23:41:07 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: False implies everything. Therefore everything implies false.
23:41:45 <cpressey> Well, I suppsose it depends on what you consider "terminated", but I would include a chain that ends in "... * 0 = 0" forever, a termination.
23:41:48 <aliseiphone> I'm 14. I dropped out of school when I was 10. Our curriculum is useless too.
23:42:12 <CakeProphet> I've never needed to learn what implication means formally.
23:42:24 <pikhq> Okay, so 4.4 BSD has GCC 2...
23:43:10 <aliseiphone> Who gives a fuck about school? I didn't say "at school".
23:43:32 <pikhq> If all my learning were at school I would know approximately nothing.
23:43:37 <CakeProphet> I guess not, actually. Is "formal math" proofs?
23:43:56 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Major part of formal mathematical reasoning, yes.
23:44:03 <cpressey> k := 10; a := 1; repeat { a := a * k; k := k - 1 } If you only care about a, it "terminates".
23:44:04 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: Axioms, definitions, reasoning, proofs.
23:44:21 <CakeProphet> well, then I've encountered formal math. But I've never "done" it.
23:44:34 <cpressey> Formal math is logic on 'roids.
23:44:40 <pikhq> aliseiphone: MINIX is also tempting.
23:44:53 <aliseiphone> In classical logic (A -> B) can be proved by assuming A and proving B.
23:45:12 <aliseiphone> Can you see why assuming a falsehood lets you demonstrate anything?
23:45:20 <pikhq> Kernel's 4000 LOC.
23:45:42 <pikhq> Also, community project now.
23:45:45 <aliseiphone> Microkernel. Author is crazy, can't design.
23:46:08 <CakeProphet> really. I don't see falsehood logically implied anything.
23:46:14 <pikhq> aliseiphone: What's so crazy about him?
23:46:15 <cpressey> "Vacuously true" is not an easy concept to grok the first few times.
23:46:57 <cpressey> aliseiphone: *You* can see it intuitively, my friend. Most of us have to work at it.
23:47:00 <aliseiphone> "If the laws have broken down then we can subvert them."
23:47:25 <cpressey> I know linguistics PhDs who could not for the life of them figure out the difference between implication and bi-implication.
23:47:50 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Nice letter from plan 9 devs responding to some babble tenenbaum posted. Can't find it right now.
23:47:54 <cpressey> Even after trying to explain it with things like "If Mary got a speeding ticket, she must have been driving" vs "If Mary was driving, she must have got a speeding ticket"
23:48:33 <cpressey> Which was the simplest plainest possible example I could think of.
23:48:33 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: intuitively, I can see how a false law can lead to a second statement being true. However, I don't see how the statement "false" alone can imply anything at all.
23:48:45 <oerjan> CakeProphet: it is possible to formulate some recursive formulas that _look_ like they have no base case, but still are well defined as mathematical definitions. i think.
23:49:09 <aliseiphone> Eg: The cake is red and the cake is not red.
23:49:16 <CakeProphet> oerjan: so, in other words, the base case is provided by some axiom that is used in the formula?
23:49:18 <oerjan> f(x+1) = x*f(x) + 1, for example
23:49:35 <pikhq> I find it difficult to fathom how people don't find logic intuitive.
23:49:45 <pikhq> I know they *do*, but it's just so... Weird.
23:50:05 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: Here is a demonstration. We assume "P and not P" for any P. We want to prove "Santa exists".
23:50:17 <oerjan> CakeProphet: that's essentially the "ending in * 0 chain" cpressey was mentioning
23:50:51 <aliseiphone> Look at "P or Santa exists". Since we know that P is false ("not P"), it must be "Santa clause exists". But we have to prove one or the other.
23:51:15 <oerjan> CakeProphet: basically _computationally_ it doesn't terminate, but _mathematically_ it does because you know that 0*f(0) must be 0 no matter what f(0) is
23:51:18 <aliseiphone> But since P isn't true we can assume that instead Santa clause exists.
23:51:55 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i guess 0*y = 0 counts as an axiom you use, yes
23:52:39 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: no. That is a terrible example. And besides, I said I understand in the case that the assumed statement actually contains logical relations. What I don't understand is the claim "false implies anything". Only false itself, not relations that are equivalent to false.
23:52:45 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Let P equal "Santa exists".
23:52:53 <aliseiphone> We can prove "P or Santa" because we assumed P, and from "P or Santa" we can prove Santa because we assumed P is false and if it's somethibg false of something else it must be the other one.
23:52:59 <Ilari> 0*x = 0 follows from some other common axioms.
23:53:19 <aliseiphone> False is just a proposition that is false.
23:53:28 <pikhq> Also, it's "Santa Claus", not Santa clause. A clause is a portion of text, and not a means of referring to St. Nicholas.
23:53:37 <aliseiphone> "True" is a proposition that stated nothing.
23:53:43 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: yes, I understand all of this. But show me something can be implied from the statement "false"
23:54:00 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: OK, don't bother doing logic.
23:54:19 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Maybe this will help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table#Logical_implication
23:54:32 <cpressey> Note that, if p is false, p -> q is always true.
23:54:40 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: okay, but don't bother teaching. I'm afraid you'll only demean your students.
23:55:05 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: No - I stopped teaching before I said that.
23:55:20 <Ilari> Haha, found article titled "DNSSEC Is Dead, Stick a Fork in It".
23:55:30 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: well right, that's why you're a terrible teacher.
23:55:39 <CakeProphet> just sayin'. You're not obligated to teach.
23:55:53 <oerjan> Ilari: well technically. those axioms are more complicated than it though so it's a bit arbitrary to consider 0*y = 0 as not one
23:56:13 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: Am I automatically the problem here?
23:56:41 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: not automatically, no. There's not even a problem to begin with, really.
23:57:13 <Ilari> Yeah, its dead enough so that '.' has just gotten DNSSEC-enabled... :-)
23:57:50 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: you could probably say the problem right now is that we are both overanalyzing somewhat. :)
23:58:41 <oerjan> CakeProphet: maybe you may like one famous anecdote about bertrand russell
23:59:04 <oerjan> he was once asked about the same point, that a false statement implies everything
23:59:36 <oerjan> so the questioner said something like, ok so say 1=2, can you prove that you are the Pope?
00:00:23 <oerjan> "Of course. Clearly I and the Pope are 2 people. Since 1=2, I and the Pope are 1, thus I am the Pope."
00:01:07 <CakeProphet> ha. Was this at conversation pace? I would have to ponder that one for a while.
00:01:10 <oerjan> (very vaguely from memory, as usual :) )?
00:01:20 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Probably.
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00:01:31 <oerjan> no idea. i doubt he took very long, this being russell after all
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00:02:22 <pikhq> My calculus teacher demonstrated, from x/0 = 0, that there is exactly 1 person in the world, named Ben, who is a carrot.
00:02:24 <aliseiphone> pikhq: How hard would writing a USB stack for 386BSD be, do you think?
00:02:39 <pikhq> (there were a few other things there, though I forgot them)
00:02:44 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Annoying.
00:03:35 <CakeProphet> In my philosophy book there was another anecdote about Russell: he was riding a bicycle one morning and suddenly shouted "My God, the ontological argument works!" and became a Catholic afterwards.
00:03:35 <pikhq> One of the easier driver stacks to implement.
00:03:48 <pikhq> It's all documented, you see.
00:04:33 <pikhq> 3 host-side chips in common use, and only a few peripheral drivers to write to get 99% of hardware to work.
00:04:34 <CakeProphet> no I think he was at one point. he converted back later.
00:04:59 <pikhq> (there is a single interface device driver. There is a single webcam driver. There is a single storage driver. And so on.)
00:05:32 <oerjan> "It has also received its share of criticism from non-Christians: Bertrand Russell noted that "The argument does not, to a modern mind, seem very convincing, but it is easier to feel convinced that it must be fallacious than it is to find out precisely where the fallacy lies."[18] Conversely, during his early Hegelian phase, Russell is also known to have said: "Great God in Boots! -- the ontological argument is sound!""
00:05:44 <oerjan> i conclude he got better :D
00:06:48 <Oranjer> it's ontological arguments all the way down
00:07:22 <CakeProphet> if the anecdote is true, I would say Catholicism was a poor choice in religion. I mean, he could have chosen any other theistic religion instead.
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00:08:03 <CakeProphet> ha. I'm a Discordian, not a pagan. It is the Catholics who are pagans.
00:08:03 <Oranjer> "despite what Zeno said, I have my moments"
00:08:27 * oerjan has sometimes concluded the reason he never gets any programming (or anything else for that matter) done is because he's allergic to yak hairs.
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00:09:00 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: do you read through old #esoteric logs in your free time or something? Oh, wait, I forgot that you also go by ehird. :)
00:09:04 <olsner> I thought avoiding yak shaving would be a good thing
00:09:07 <cpressey> I never get any esolangs designed because I have to write freaking example programs for them showing you can accomplish branching and looping. Uggh.
00:09:07 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: You then claimed to have tried most religions, "including atheism", then went on about being asexual and how works.
00:09:21 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: ah. yes, these are my younger, more confused days.
00:09:30 <oerjan> olsner: when you _can_ do it, i presume
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00:09:54 <olsner> cpressey: why do you use branching and looping as examples then? do something funnier, like esolang interpreters instea
00:09:56 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Pagan does not mean "a religion that disagrees with me", regardless of what some idiots may feel.
00:10:12 <oerjan> but not when it means you give up every project as soon as you get to the minor boring parts
00:10:24 <cpressey> olsner: It's that old "But is it Turing-complete???" thing. I know, I know...
00:10:31 <pikhq> "Pagan" refers to most polytheistic non-Abrahamic religions.
00:10:38 <CakeProphet> pikhq: No, I believe that is how it was originally used. I think it became associated with movements such as neo-paganism after-the-fact.
00:10:50 <olsner> cpressey: an interpreter for a turing-complete language would concisely prove that it is in fact turing complete
00:11:08 <cpressey> olsner: Yes, guess what I need to be able to do to write one? Branch and loop :/
00:11:08 <aliseiphone> pikhq: If paganism is religions I disagree with, then Christianity is paganism.
00:11:13 <pikhq> In particular, folk religions practiced in Europe before & during the introduction of Christianity to Europe.
00:11:32 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Well, in my current language anyway, yes.
00:11:34 <CakeProphet> pikhq: ah, okay. Then yes, you are correct.
00:11:50 <CakeProphet> but wasn't "pagan" originally used by non-pagans?
00:11:53 <aliseiphone> cpressey: oerjan is good at figuring out ways to structure such things >:)
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00:11:57 <olsner> in particular, you don't need to make *examples* of branching and looping, at most you'll need to *use* branching and looping
00:12:17 <pikhq> CakeProphet: It comes from Latin "paganus", meaning "country dweller".
00:12:28 <pikhq> Oh wait actually. *No*.
00:12:35 <pikhq> It was originally used by the fucking Romans.
00:13:18 <oerjan> the romans liked to fuck out in the country
00:13:37 <CakeProphet> well, in any case, I wasn't using the word literally. I was actually using the "barbaric religion" connotation that it has. You know, for "humor" and all.
00:13:43 <olsner> so what did the sexually inactive romans call the pagans?
00:14:15 <pikhq> olsner: No such thing.
00:14:19 <oerjan> aliseiphone: yes, you are the pure and innocent youngster of the channel. carry on.
00:14:28 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Yes, the Catholics are barbaric.
00:14:46 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Thanks for not carrying on the Hamlet innuendo, nitwit. :(
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00:15:25 <oerjan> aliseiphone: ah. next time you want to get people to join in shakespeare quotes, i suggest you try a native english speaker.
00:15:47 <CakeProphet> ha. no. Most native English speakers know nothing about Hamlet.
00:15:49 <pikhq> oerjan: No, that's worse.
00:16:13 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Specifically I was referencing the interpretation of country as cuntry.
00:16:36 <pikhq> I have found that many native speakers have low competence in the written language.
00:16:59 <cpressey> pikhq: No, "a religion that disagrees with me" -- that's "Heathen".
00:16:59 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, although you claim that C# is mind poisoning, is it safe to say that's it's one of the less mind-poisoning popular-for-business languages?
00:17:00 <oerjan> aliseiphone: i might have realized that if i had realized shakespeare was actually involved
00:17:45 <pikhq> aliseiphone: "Nothing", FWIW, was slang for vagina.
00:17:45 <CakeProphet> so, continuing our "false implies everything" discussion. The only thing I can logically imply from the statement "false" is "not true", and derivatives such as "not not not true" and "not not false". Is that about the extent of what "false" can imply?
00:17:47 <oerjan> cpressey: um i'm pretty sure "heathen" must be a calque on "pagan"...
00:17:48 <cpressey> Of course, heathen, heath, country dweller, same thing linguistically, probably.
00:17:55 <aliseiphone> oerjan: (Following "lie in lap" for "sex", then "I mean, my head in your lap" for "sex"; followed by "nothing" for "vagina".)
00:18:39 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: I would say C# is not mind-poisoning at all.
00:18:44 <aliseiphone> Programming jobs with popular languages SUCK. Full stop.
00:18:54 <cpressey> I tried to write something in C# once.
00:19:00 <pikhq> C is used for business. By "business" I mean "actually getting shit *done*", not merely hacking together a piece of shit.
00:19:24 <aliseiphone> Mind numbing tedious pointless —boss changes requirements— at home now, never want to see a computer again
00:19:27 <pikhq> (the hacking together pieces of shit jobs have moved on to trendier languages.)
00:19:30 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: You know, I would actually generalize that statement and say that no abstract concept can poison your mind. Only certain molecules upon ingestion...
00:19:32 <cpressey> Ah, I see the confusion here. "Landing a job" often has nothing to do with "actually getting shit done".
00:20:08 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I would be on the other side of that argument.
00:20:18 <cpressey> If you meant, poison your *brain*, then sure.
00:20:20 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: Hurf durf literal interpretation
00:20:28 <olsner> C# is only as bad as Java
00:20:54 <CakeProphet> cpressey: ah. Perhaps. But I don't feel like getting into dualism at the moment. :P Should be saving all that thought for the stuff I have to write about dualism in my philosophy class that I've been horridly procrastinating.
00:21:20 <cpressey> But, yeah. I don't think C# or Java will poison your mind. Not like PHP will, at any rate.
00:21:21 <oerjan> CakeProphet: in boolean logic the fact that false implies everything follows from the definition of "A implies B" as "not A, or B"
00:21:43 <cpressey> CakeProphet: If you like. But I'm not really a dualist. I just make certain distinctions.
00:22:10 <CakeProphet> oerjan: that's (not A) or B correct? The command confused me.
00:22:11 <oerjan> in intuitionistic logic it is also true, but from different principles, in fact (false -> anything) may be an axiom there
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00:23:48 <CakeProphet> so since the assumption if false, nothing is actually proven, right? And that's why you can imply anything?
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00:24:35 <CakeProphet> The 1=2 implies I am the Pope was a good example of that.
00:25:39 <Sgeo> The book arrived today
00:25:40 * coppro treats CakeProphet Right Good Forever
00:26:07 <cpressey> CakeProphet: It's on your certificate.
00:27:30 <cpressey> CakeProphet: For further information, consult your pineal gland.
00:27:55 <CakeProphet> cpressey: I am never without consultation from it.
00:28:09 <oerjan> well technically it says you have to be speaking from your pope chair
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00:29:30 <CakeProphet> My pope chair is whichever chair I happen to be sitting in. Or, in the case that I am not sitting, it is the non-existent chair that I am speaking from.
00:30:09 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra
00:30:28 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: usurp? Why? You're a pope too!
00:30:29 <pikhq> CakeProphet: And your pope hat?
00:30:44 <cpressey> Sadly, there's not all that much renegade-y about most Discordian popes these days.
00:31:27 <oerjan> i put on my pope rope and hat
00:31:53 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Didn't used to be, but yes. It went thud.
00:32:30 <pikhq> And they pay their taxes.
00:32:35 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Less intellectual. Not always a bad thing.
00:33:00 <aliseiphone> Discordianism is only intellectual if you count numerology.
00:33:14 <CakeProphet> cpressey: A good Discordian pope should not follow any customs. The reason there are no good Discordian popes is that Discordianism encourages you to commit blasphemous acts. Going off alone and partaking joyously of a hotdog on a friday is an example of this encouragement.
00:33:18 <cpressey> aliseiphone: I refer to Discordians who think it gives them some kind of "insight".
00:33:32 <CakeProphet> cpressey: so breaking the rules is a custom...
00:33:40 <aliseiphone> cpressey: He just quoted scripture at you.
00:33:48 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Yes yes I am aware of the invisible taxicabs.
00:34:15 <cpressey> All Cretans are liars, but snappy dressers.
00:35:56 <aliseiphone> Christ on flotilla; forecast firey fornication. Tantalisingly, tarantula in tepid water taps...
00:36:12 <CakeProphet> cpressey: And no, I don't derive any insight at all from practicing Discordianism. It's just another blinding dogma.
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00:37:50 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I'm a lapsed Discordian myself.
00:38:35 <CakeProphet> The main problem with Discordianism is that it is very very difficult to explain to someone.
00:39:22 <CakeProphet> the easiesy reply is generally "It's a parody religion", but that's not quite comprehensive.
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00:40:40 <cpressey> I've never seen a point in explaining it.
00:40:45 <CakeProphet> I guess if I had to explain it to someone quickly I would say it's the intellectual pursuit of paradox.
00:43:46 <cpressey> I gotta go. I have a hammer to build. Or was it an anvil?
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00:44:42 <oerjan> as long as you nail it down.
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01:19:53 <cheater99> anyone else notice that Raymond from Everyone Loves Raymond looks just like Ellen DeGeneres?
01:20:32 <oerjan> (the fact i don't watch tv _might_ have something to do with it.)
01:27:34 <cheater99> but when he's not flashing his teeth
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02:32:55 <zzo38> Do you know some things about makefiles? So that I can add in a third program to Enhanced CWEB, after Tangle and Weave. That it should be able to be used in place of makefiles. If you know some things you can suggest it
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02:46:26 <Sgeo> Thought clog's notice was some weird error that Freenode or XChat was giving me
02:47:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why did you think that?
02:47:42 <Sgeo> I processed "ERRMSG unknown CTCP" sooner than I processed what was saying it
02:48:35 <zzo38> Did you know, the clog log files suppress everything with CTRL+A if it is not ACTION
02:48:47 <zzo38> (Only if that is the first character)
02:50:25 <Sgeo> Shall I assume you meant CTCPs?
02:50:36 <Sgeo> Or that ^A is in fact a fundamental part of CTCPs?
02:50:41 <zzo38> Yes but CTCPs all start with CTRL+A
02:50:55 <Sgeo> Is the character I pasted in fact CTRL+A?
02:51:02 <zzo38> The one you wrote is a unicode text, using the CP437 representation of CTRL+A converted to unicode
02:51:23 <zzo38> The one before "Test"
02:53:27 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions/comments having to do with the makefile stuff?
02:53:42 <zzo38> (So far I did put meta-macros, but not stuff for makefile stuff)
02:55:02 <Sgeo> Um.. don't use Asylum?
02:55:12 <Sgeo> [which is a dead project anyway, so moot suggestion[
02:55:26 <zzo38> Asylum? I wasn't planning on it.
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02:55:37 <zzo38> I am planning on making my own.
02:55:46 <Sgeo> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/4361.aspx
02:55:46 <zzo38> And adding it as a third program to Enhanced CWEB.
02:56:03 <zzo38> I would like to know what makefiles features you suggest and stuff like that.
02:56:32 <Sgeo> I know nothing about makefiles
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02:59:08 <zzo38> One of my ideas is having a file in /etc/ and one in your home directory, one named in an environment variable, and then those will be read for the settings, and then the @r directives can tell it additional make rules.
02:59:51 <zzo38> (And all the other stuff can still be used together with it, such as @i to include and @m and @- for meta-macros, and so on)
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03:01:04 <zzo38> This way I can make it improved instead of using the "make" command with makefiles, it can be a improved way instead.
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03:06:06 <Ilari> Fun. I can't figure out how to make unbound-host accept trust anchor for '.', but can make unbound itself accept the trust anchors (I get AD bit back for e.g. www.nic.cz).
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04:04:25 <zzo38> Old makefiles you might need to use a configure script, or autoconf, or manually edit the settings in the makefile, and only one makefile per directory, my way is different so that you can have common files and separate files, and so on.
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04:13:30 <zzo38> Perhaps the third program can be called CSPIDER maybe (completely unrelated to any program that might be called SPIDER you might have for various uses, and isn't used in Pascal WEB for the same purpose either) (you can suggest a different name if you want), you can type in "cspider this_is_not_a_pipe" (if the program is called "this_is_not_a_pipe.w") and then based on @r commands in the file (and in include files and meta-macros) can tell it wh
04:14:19 <zzo38> And then you can put parameters +C to tangle and compile only (no weave), +T to tangle only (no compile or weave), +W for weave only (no tangle), +F to tell it to fake everything without actually calling any other programs, and so on
04:14:37 <zzo38> (Yes, it does have to be a plus sign instead of minus signs, because this is how CWEB works)
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04:15:35 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these last three lines (not this one) what I wrote?
04:16:25 <AndChat-> My opinion is that I want to unscrewup my computer
04:17:25 <zzo38> AndChat-: OK that is good that you might want to do so but it is not what I wrote.
04:17:37 <zzo38> What is wrong with your computer anyways?
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04:24:09 <zzo38> Now I asked four questions
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04:54:39 <SgeoN1> Sorry, wasn't paying attemtion
04:54:39 <SgeoN1> Try to boot normally, and it freezes with a black screen and mouse cursor
04:54:39 <SgeoN1> Safe mode, and it bsods
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05:31:38 <pikhq> Random thought: as we all know, machine translation sucks.
05:31:47 <pikhq> But what about machine *gloss generation*?
05:32:33 <pikhq> Converting, say, 今日はお元気ですか。 into "Today (sub) well-feeling (copula) (question)."
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07:13:09 <Gregor-L> pikhq: Why is that "gloss generation"?
07:13:33 <pikhq> Gregor-L: Because it's not translating anything, but just providing hints at what each individual word means.
07:14:12 <Gregor-L> What I don't understand is why that's "gloss generation"
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07:14:45 <pikhq> Because it's a gloss, and I am discussing the idea of machine generation of this.
07:15:14 <Gregor-L> gloss (n): # an explanation or definition of an obscure word in a text
07:15:21 <Gregor-L> I had literally never seen that use of that word before.
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07:15:31 <Gregor> Same root as Glossary?
07:16:43 <pikhq> It's also used to explain more than just "obscure" words when the gloss is in a different language than the word being glossed.
07:17:10 <pikhq> For instance, the example gloss I gave even glossed the particle は, which is about on par with glossing "the". ;)
07:17:19 <Gregor> If I don't know wtf it means, it's obscure to me.
07:18:38 <Gregor> So yeah, the rest of Op. 13 Mov 2.
07:18:42 <Gregor> It's either awesome or I'm delusional.
07:19:09 <AnMaster> ever thought about the trivial way of making a language where all programs will have to output palindromes?
07:19:38 <Gregor> AnMaster: The only valid input is the empty string. The "interpreter" outputs a random palindrome.
07:19:51 <AnMaster> select a suitable reversible language. Make exit condition be reversing so it hits the first character
07:20:18 <AnMaster> thus the same output will be written twice, in different directions
07:21:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, think that would work?
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13:29:08 * oerjan laughs at the greek inscription in today's IWC
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13:59:30 <cheater99> http://www.buzzfeed.com/alexandr/george-costanza-the-original-hipster-1cms
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14:42:05 <CakeProphet> lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
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14:50:22 <alise> Do you know what's nice? A 118 ppi screen.
14:50:30 <alise> Do you know what's not nice? Everything else!
14:52:57 <alise> You know how I was saying I used Python for the easy gtk?
14:53:09 <alise> http://bkhome.org/genie/index.html Grep "/* GTK+". Looks like I've found something better.
14:53:31 <alise> It compiles natively! It has proper lambda! It supports GTK signals natively!
14:53:47 <alise> Its syntax is like Python's but better!
14:54:01 <alise> Also statically typed!
15:05:47 <alise> pikhq: So does Lucid Puppy 5.0 use Kdrive?
15:08:00 <CakeProphet> alise: rofl. "It has proper lambda!" isn't that a function of the language and not a GUI toolkit? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by lambda?
15:08:23 <alise> CakeProphet: Yeah, turns out Genie is a language. Who'da thunk it?
15:08:47 <alise> It's not like it says it on the page or anything.
15:09:19 <CakeProphet> I am too apathetic to click links. It requires a right-click, then a left-click, and then much waiting. Simply too much work in this modern world.
15:09:31 <alise> Oh, I see; you have X-Chat set to "retarded" mode.
15:09:46 <CakeProphet> well, no. I use irssi. I'm not sure why, but it works.
15:09:59 <alise> And I have my hatred of touchpads set to maximum. Grr....
15:10:34 <alise> OTOH, I can't really get out my mouse; there's no convenient surface to use it on and I don't feel like moving.
15:10:50 <alise> And really, I have little to complain about; this laptop is awesome.
15:11:00 <CakeProphet> If touchpads transmitted my thoughts to computer interfaces... then my opinion would change entirely.
15:11:38 <alise> Lighter than I thought possible, long-lasting battery life, acceptable keyboard -- very thin but the keys are big and mostly in sane places, screen is wonderfully high-dpi, works in the daylight and the glossiness is somehow completely covered by the images on the screen, and it's very bright...
15:11:45 <CakeProphet> I used a napkin as a mousepad for several months. I was in college so I can defend such an action.
15:11:49 <alise> You can't tell the dual-core CPU is only 1.3 GHz or so...
15:12:20 <alise> And the hard disk appears to be invincible and silent.
15:12:25 <CakeProphet> my celeron D is 3.3 ghz. :) This was back before cores existed.
15:12:48 <alise> (I don't think it's an SSD, because it was too cheap for that, which leads on to my final thing I like about it: It was so cheap for all of this!)
15:12:55 <alise> I mean, not netbook cheap, but...
15:13:06 <alise> This thing is as good, or better than, a ThinkPad, at half the price.
15:13:20 <alise> CakeProphet: A 13.3" Toshiba Satellite; T150 or something.
15:13:40 <CakeProphet> I'm considering overclocking my celeron, as I've read they can generally clock much faster but for some reason they're set to a lower speed upon manufacture.
15:13:49 <alise> Oh, and it's silent, this thing.
15:13:52 <alise> Seriously. The fan /never/ goes on.
15:13:57 <alise> And when it does, it's inaudible.
15:14:14 <CakeProphet> but I can't find a bios that allows me to set clock rate for my PC, and I don't really think I can do it manually.
15:14:16 <alise> You know, I always thought a 1.3 GHz ultra-low voltage processor would be too slow ... but this thing is faster than my other machines.
15:14:22 <alise> Seriously. It just runs smoothly.
15:14:38 <alise> CPUs are so good these days that GHz hardly matters, and 4 GiB of RAM does a lot of good.
15:14:46 <alise> CakeProphet: Overclocking laptops is basically a bad idea.
15:14:54 <alise> Their cooling systems are weak.
15:15:01 <alise> CakeProphet: Celeron? On a desktop?
15:15:10 <alise> Celeron is a laptop processor.
15:15:16 <CakeProphet> it's an older Dell. I don't remember which year, and no.
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15:15:24 <alise> Oh, it's the "budget" line.
15:15:41 <CakeProphet> it was budget when it was new. Now it's a probably over half a decade old.
15:15:52 <alise> This thing is a "Pentium", which means "one specific model of Core 2 Duo ultra-low voltage".
15:16:13 <alise> Well, a "Pentium Dual-Core", which if taken to mean the original Pentium would produce the most horrifically hilarious processor ever.
15:16:21 <CakeProphet> had 256 MBs of RAM. So it was basically designed to run programs on your hard drive. I have since added a gig of RAM and it did wonders to responsiveness.
15:16:39 <alise> 4 GiB of RAM here, which I already mentioned but damn it's nice.
15:16:47 <alise> All of this for 475 or so.
15:16:57 <CakeProphet> except for when Chrome freaks out and ends up creating huge amounts of swap after running for days, memory is generally no longer a problem. CPU is the limiting factor.
15:17:11 <alise> Which is $730, but with exchange rates these days, who knows what it was when I bought it.
15:18:01 <alise> Anyway, tl;dr: if this thing had a proper mouse, and a way to detach the computer from the monitor so I could use it on a desk in a more ergonomic position, I'd probably chuck away my other machines.
15:18:16 <CakeProphet> I might try firefox again now that the new version is out. Chromes multi-process design makes absolutely no sense to me. It's better suited to lightweight threads than OS processes.
15:18:26 <alise> Well, I guess 13.3" could get a little cramped every now and then, but it's 1336x768, so it's high DPI and I have room to move windows about (when I can stomach touching the trackpad).
15:18:48 <alise> It's so high DPI, in fact, that even freetype's shitty subpixel rendering just looks smooth and pretty on it.
15:19:02 <alise> Yes indeed, the screen makes Linux have good font rendering: I think it might use gnomes.
15:19:30 <CakeProphet> I've never really noticed poor font rendering on my machine, but maybe I just don't care enough to notice.
15:19:59 <alise> I didn't give half a shit until I bought a Mac in ... December 2006.
15:20:06 <alise> My eyes were suddenly happy and I liked reading shit.
15:20:25 <alise> CakeProphet: Yeah...
15:20:30 <alise> It was ~1,000 at the time.
15:20:49 <alise> Well, I think just under; high 900s. This was way before the recession so god knows what that is in dollars.
15:20:54 <alise> (There was a sale on.)
15:21:04 <alise> Still, while it was pricey, it served me for many years.
15:21:15 <alise> 2006 to 2010, or thereabouts.
15:21:24 <CakeProphet> Having the Apple logo on the case must cost $1000 or something... that's the only reason I can think for the expense.
15:21:28 <alise> Sure, it aged a bit towards the end, but 4 years of service is pretty damn good.
15:21:44 <alise> CakeProphet: Actually... I hate Apple now, but I have to defend their prices.
15:21:53 <alise> Macs aren't reliable because of the OS, that's bullshit, OS X isn't that stable.
15:22:02 <alise> Macs are reliable because /the hardware is damn good/.
15:22:22 <alise> Seriously, underneath that carved aluminium -- which, btw, is pretty expensive itself -- are some of the best computer components money can buy.
15:22:25 <CakeProphet> I suppose, but I do believe there's quite a bit of branding involved.
15:22:33 <alise> Plus the new iMacs, even the low-end ones, have a /IPS/ screen.
15:22:44 <alise> Allow me to translate: "Expensive-ass professional photographer's screen".
15:22:54 <alise> Excessive? Maybe. But let's put it this way.
15:23:05 <alise> The lowest end iMac is cheaper than the cheapest IPS display. And it comes with a free computer.
15:23:15 <alise> CakeProphet: Of course. Apple are a boutique company.
15:23:29 <alise> But I think they'd have a hard time selling it cheaper, even if you ignore OS development costs.
15:24:21 <alise> When I was young I was wondering why someone didn't just sell computers for a pound, then so many people would buy them that they would get even richer than the current companies. I don't think I quite understood how profit worked at that point.
15:24:22 <CakeProphet> I was thinking either Toshiba or Dell for a new laptop.
15:24:37 <alise> CakeProphet: Can I humbly recommend Toshiba, assuming their brand new models are as good as this one?
15:24:51 <alise> Dell are alright, but... Toshiba are just higher-quality, and no more expensive.
15:25:19 <CakeProphet> I was considering Dell because they can be ordered with Ubuntu, which I thought would reduce cost. But I don't believe it's any cheaper than getting Vista.
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15:26:10 <alise> Yeah, it's roughly the same price.
15:26:12 <cpressey> No, no, it was totally a hammer.
15:26:16 <CakeProphet> and I have a free ISO image of Windows 7 via university... so I'm not really concerned at all with which operating systems come on the computer, as long as it doesn't affect price.
15:26:21 <alise> Getting a "no OS" version, i.e. FreeDOS, is the only one that tends to be cheaper.
15:26:31 <alise> And they'd probably put Dell shit on the Ubuntu installation anyway.
15:26:48 <CakeProphet> oh? I didn't know they sold "no OS" versions of things. I'm a complete novice at computer buying.
15:26:50 <alise> (They ship FreeDOS because /in the US, it is illegal to sell a computer without an operating system installed/.)
15:26:53 <alise> (I am not joking.)
15:27:00 <alise> CakeProphet: Only on dell.com, I guess. But honestly, I'd just recommend Toshiba.
15:27:27 <alise> Ubuntu, why can't you burn an ISO to a USB stick? You are a failure.
15:27:36 <CakeProphet> I suppose a computer with no OS is technically a weapon. It has no other function than to be bashed upon someone's head.
15:27:50 <alise> Or to, you know, put an install disk in. :-)
15:28:41 <CakeProphet> System -> Adminstration -> startup disk creator
15:29:09 <alise> And if I'm not trying to burn Ubuntu?
15:29:49 <CakeProphet> I can't imagine why it wouldn't work with any other iso. :P Unless they compare checksums, but that sounds like something Windows would do.
15:29:51 <alise> New question: Why is that not supported in Brasero, the burning application?
15:30:02 <alise> CakeProphet: They might rejiggle syslinux -> isolinux.
15:30:12 <alise> In an Ubuntu-specific way.
15:30:20 <CakeProphet> ......this nomenclature is completely new to me.
15:30:21 <alise> *isolinux -> syslinux.
15:30:29 <alise> Or they might /not/, say, if Ubuntu no longer uses isolinux; that would break Puppy, which does.
15:30:41 <alise> CakeProphet: ISOLINUX is the from-CD version of the SYSLINUX bootloader.
15:30:55 <alise> ISOLINUX will only work on a CD, so you have to rename the stuff to SYSLINUX and run SYSLINUX on it.
15:31:00 <CakeProphet> ah. And what does one do when "rejiggling" :P
15:31:29 <alise> Rename isolinux directory to syslinux, rename the configuration file the same way. Run syslinux on the USB stick.
15:31:39 <alise> Actually, I'm not entirely sure you have to do that.
15:31:48 <CakeProphet> ...why on earth would they use different directory names?
15:31:54 <CakeProphet> just to make things that much more complicated?
15:32:15 <alise> It seems that the Startup Disk Creator rejects non-Ubuntu ISOs.
15:32:25 <alise> cpressey: Hey, we just agreed that Discordianism is boring. :P
15:32:44 <CakeProphet> alise: if by "we" you mean your multiple personalities, then yes.
15:32:50 <alise> No, me and cpressey.
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15:33:15 <CakeProphet> technically Discordianism was just created.
15:33:19 <cpressey> alise: I cannot honour that agreement.
15:33:46 <alise> CakeProphet: Also, don't you think making jokes about my mental health when I'm stuck in an institution is maybe just a liittle distasteful?
15:34:01 <alise> (Not right now, of course, but on weekdays.)
15:34:48 <CakeProphet> alise: not if you're confident in your mental health. But I see I've offended you. Wasn't intentional, and I didn't mean anything by it. I would have said the same thing to anyone else in that context.
15:35:10 <alise> Just pointing out the possible, you know, awkwardness.
15:35:36 <cpressey> Ah, are we not all completely mad in this channel? Verily, it is a joyful madness.
15:35:37 <CakeProphet> ah, okay. well yeah, I guess I thought about it. But I figured it wouldn't matter. I am a crass individual, but only online.
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15:36:23 <cpressey> I have a whole bunch of gnarly Javascript to write today!
15:36:26 <CakeProphet> Man Alise is so crazy, I hope he doesn't logs. olololol
15:36:37 <CakeProphet> cpressey: "gnarly" is a fitting word, then.
15:37:39 <cpressey> jQuery will not save it. It will only soften the blow.
15:38:09 <CakeProphet> you will get two kinds of errors: a) null object has no attribute "blah" b) unexpected object has no attribute "blah"
15:38:25 <CakeProphet> I suppose they're the same error, actually.
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15:40:26 <alise> Duh, I can just use unetbootin.
15:41:50 <alise> So, I just realised that smallX /also has its own Xlib/!
15:41:55 <alise> i.e., holy shit it really is tiny!
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15:42:26 <CakeProphet> Good. for a moment I considered that you might actually heart internet explorer. :)
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15:42:40 <alise> Of course I don't! *shifty eyes*
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15:45:41 <CakeProphet> I should run it in Wine and see how well it runs Windows programs.
15:46:28 <CakeProphet> perhaps I'll run Wine for Windows in Window for Windows on Wine, to open notepad. that would be a good test.
15:50:35 <augur> CakeProphet: did you get a good explanation for how getChar worked in haskell?
15:50:58 <augur> or rather, how 'getChar >>= putChar' is referentially transparent?
15:51:01 <augur> i didnt follow that discussion, so
15:51:01 <CakeProphet> yes. I mean, I understood in the first place. I was simply pondering the meaning of referential transparency.
15:51:41 <augur> its all about what you mean by referentially transparent, yeah.
15:52:08 <CakeProphet> though, to my mind, it feels like a conceptual hack. It is true to the rule of referential transparency, but only because actions are abstract values.
15:52:35 <augur> in some sense, 'getChar' isn't referentially transparent, if you include the execution part as part of that whole thing, but if you take it to be just some instance of the IO monad that is an instruction to get a character, then its perfectly transparent
15:53:19 <CakeProphet> so a given operation will always return the same abstract "action", even though that action can be a container for wilder different values.
15:54:10 <augur> because the value of getChar isnt all there is. theres the whole main-isnt-just-evaluated thing
15:54:50 <CakeProphet> but I suppose, everything /referenced/ is the same value for the same operation. Thus, referential transparency.
15:56:04 <augur> i think theres another way to view it tho, which would be that for any given computer, you can pretend getChar has a hidden parameter, the time it's being evaluated at, and so, if you could magically access this parameter and change it, you could "re-read" form the past, always getting the same value
15:56:30 <CakeProphet> ....that's probably a bit too philosophical for what referential transparency actually means. :P
15:57:24 <CakeProphet> I'd like to play around with Elephants idea of past reference via temporal logic
15:57:25 <augur> whereas alise is the universe nomad
15:57:30 <CakeProphet> but I don't know the specifics of the semantic model.
15:57:58 <augur> eh. i think you can just think of the denotational semantics as ignoring side effects of the program
15:58:44 <augur> i mean, the good thing about like.. "getChar >>= putChar" is that the denotation is not at all related to the denotation of putChar, really
15:58:55 <CakeProphet> I wonder if you could construct temporal logic in Haskell by keeping a "history" of previous actions and then referencing them by their temporal characteristics.
15:58:58 <augur> it doesnt matter how obnoxiously complex the thing on the right is, right
15:59:05 <CakeProphet> the events they trigger, the time they occured, etc
15:59:16 <augur> the denotation of the whole thing is just some abstract IO bind instance
15:59:48 <augur> you would need some sort of thing to collect up the state of the world at every given point you realize
15:59:55 <augur> a History monad, if you will
16:00:04 <augur> say, a list of State monads
16:00:18 <augur> first is most recent
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16:02:45 <CakeProphet> "When you press the switch down, you launch missiles, and then press the switch up after 30 minutes" "forever $ do: if the switch is up, press it down."
16:03:11 <augur> CakeProphet: wtf XD
16:03:33 <CakeProphet> the first part defines an event and the consequence of that event
16:04:54 <CakeProphet> so essentially an event is a combination of procedure and state
16:05:06 <CakeProphet> when the event occurs, a procedure is executed... and a state change occurs.
16:07:03 <CakeProphet> I guess you break it up into three statements. when the switch is pressed down, you launch missiles. if the switch has been pressed down for 30 minutes, press the switch up. forever: if the switch is up, press it down.
16:07:28 <CakeProphet> maybe "always" is a better name than "forever"
16:09:18 <CakeProphet> essentially a declarative language with a notion of state and time rather than a list of sequential procedures. The first event is "program start".
16:11:28 <CakeProphet> so essentially, since it's a declarative language, the use of a term in a logical definition creates its existence... rather than requiring it to be predefined.
16:12:26 <CakeProphet> x is a tree. x has child y. x has child z. x has value 2.
16:22:09 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, that switch thing sound basically like connecting an inverter to itself. An inverter with a very long delay though
16:22:42 <AnMaster> *reads further* wait a second, where did the missiles get into it?
16:24:17 <CakeProphet> oh... that was the origina. I must have frgotten the missiles.
16:24:45 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, "language with a notion of state and time rather than a list of sequential procedures" sounds a bit like vhdl or such. Can't claim VHDL is declarative. Plus it supports sequential sections as well.
16:27:43 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, but if you want a language with a notion of state and time but not of sequence then some sort of hardware description language might be what you want
16:33:17 <CakeProphet> but basically the notion of sequence is constrained to events, consisting of sequences of "pure" logical assertions combined with other events.
16:42:00 <cpressey> CakeProphet: You might want to look at 2iota, for something similar.
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16:52:52 <cheater99> AnMaster: apple are holding a conference today
16:53:00 <cheater99> AnMaster: what happens if they don't hold it correctly??
16:53:49 <cpressey> Good god, they could accidentally drop it. Dozens could be injured.
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16:57:04 <fizzie> For some reason it's always missiles; the C++ FAQ also shoots (nuclear) missiles in an example of method binding gone wrong.
16:57:30 <fizzie> (The FQA converts the example to cats and dogs -- without missiles -- in its description, IIRC.)
16:58:49 <cheater99> alise: up 2 anything this weekend?
16:59:01 <cpressey> So, some dude found a bug in thue.c.
16:59:25 <cpressey> The original C implementation of the Thue language.
16:59:33 <alise> cheater99: killing your "2"
16:59:38 <alise> cpressey: it's C, it handles strings
16:59:41 <alise> Gee am I surprised.
16:59:49 <cheater99> alise: i don't know what my "2" is :(
17:00:01 <cpressey> alise: It's actually an error in the implementation of bubble sort used to sort the LHS's.
17:00:16 <cpressey> I don't know why the LHS's have to be sorted, though.
17:00:19 <alise> I type on an iPhone Monday to Friday, you ever see me do that? You, on the other hand, have a keyboard. Use it, dammit. >_>
17:00:26 <alise> cpressey: Who found the bug?
17:00:34 <alise> *that = "use such abbreviations"
17:00:56 <cheater99> alise: i don't have *my* keyboard here.
17:01:12 <cheater99> *my* keyboard is the ms natural 4000
17:01:12 <alise> Oh, my silver spoon is bent.
17:01:19 <cheater99> this thing is a logitech shitboard.
17:01:25 <alise> I type on a touchscreen with correct grammar and spelling. Shut it.
17:01:41 <cheater99> well what can i do, you get a freakin' spellcheck
17:01:42 <cpressey> alise: Just a guy who I barely know (he reported a bug in my SMITH implementation in the past.) I don't think he hangs out here.
17:02:37 <alise> Sometimes (often) the spellcheck breaks.
17:02:43 <alise> So I fix the errors myself.
17:02:52 <alise> Note that on the iPhone I still type faster than most people here.
17:02:57 <alise> Ergo speed is no excuse.
17:03:19 <cheater99> you should start hanging out with avrfreak
17:03:19 <alise> I really, really hate "u" and "2".
17:04:02 <cheater99> i'm sorry about that alise, i'm sure we'll come to a mututal agreement on some astral plane
17:04:14 <alise> "Astral plane". Also don't say that.
17:04:39 <cheater99> you didn't get the right altar, did you?
17:04:42 <alise> Because it's a New Ager term, and New Agers should be beaten to death with a cluebat.
17:05:04 <cheater99> i bet you farmed puddings for weeks
17:05:17 <cpressey> And if you don't have a cluebat handy, I hear a golf club works well too.
17:05:38 <alise> cheater99: oh, nethack.
17:05:42 <cpressey> But that's because I spend all my time in pubs listening for rumours.
17:05:44 <cheater99> i wonder if it's possible to implement a touring machine based on puddings
17:05:46 <alise> Also known as the most boring game ever formulated.
17:06:06 <cheater99> cpressey: here's a project for you ^
17:06:20 <cpressey> alise: Are you anti-roguelikes in general, or just against Nethack?
17:06:36 * cpressey tried to frickin tab-complete after typing "Neth"
17:06:39 <alise> Okay, so the Nethack hate may just be mild ADHD talking.
17:06:50 <alise> Roguelikes could be good... but only /mine/.
17:06:53 <cheater99> you're just trying to hurt my feelings
17:07:00 <cheater99> but it's ok, because it shows you care.
17:07:11 <cpressey> It's almost scary how frequently we are on the same page.
17:07:16 <alise> cpressey: Cool. :P
17:07:26 <alise> Clearly I am your ... quarter-cousin.
17:07:50 <alise> Either I have four parents, or we share 0.5 parents.
17:08:34 <alise> That would be quarter-brother.
17:08:43 <alise> God knows what a quarter-cousin is.
17:08:45 <cpressey> I loved Fargoal on the C64, I loved Moria on the Amiga 500, I quite liked ZAngband when I ran FreeBSD, but since then... yes. I did try to write my own roguelike once, in Perl. That was sort of a one-way trip.
17:09:37 <alise> cpressey: The great thing is how incompatible two not-invented-here-afflicted people are.
17:09:47 <alise> Even if they both share all design goals, they'll never be able to collaborate.
17:11:07 <cheater99> anyways, speaking of cockfight, time to get a shower, bbs
17:11:29 <alise> Awkward speaking-of there.
17:11:38 <pikhq> alise: Yes, Puppy uses Kdrive.
17:11:49 <pikhq> I think it's a custom package build.
17:11:51 <alise> Lucid Puppy uses Xorg.
17:11:54 <alise> It doesn't ship Kdrive.
17:11:55 <pikhq> Wait, it's full X?
17:11:58 <alise> Lucid Puppy sucks donkey butt.
17:12:10 <alise> It booted slowly and proceeded to be mediocre.
17:12:12 <alise> Maybe 4.0 is better.
17:12:17 <alise> CakeProphet: Yes; not played, however.
17:12:26 <pikhq> alise: Definitely Tiny Core then?
17:12:34 <CakeProphet> does it not look ridiculously awesome? I want to take some time to play it eventually, but I feel it will be one of those games that takes a long time to get into.
17:12:46 <alise> pikhq: No, no. Yak Linux
17:12:49 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I cannot play most modern games for that very reason.
17:12:54 <alise> CakeProphet: I definitely don't have that kind of attention span.
17:12:59 <cpressey> I must find my awesomeness elsewhere.
17:13:10 <alise> I have trouble playing Monkey Island II.
17:13:15 <alise> (Best game ever, though.)
17:13:18 <cpressey> Katamari Damacy is a significant exception.
17:13:25 <CakeProphet> it /makes/ a text based world... with fractal terrain and erosion, places town, and constructs a background story for the whole world.
17:14:13 <alise> cpressey: Tell me you've played at least the Secret of Monkey Island and Monkey Island II: LeChuck's Revenge.
17:14:17 <cpressey> By "text-based", do you mean roguelike? Or -- how close to rogue do you mean, I guess?
17:14:18 <alise> If not... go do so. Immediately.
17:14:51 <cpressey> alise: I played at least one of them, once. It may have been the first? I don't remember.
17:15:02 <CakeProphet> cpressey: text-based as in a line-based terminal with text display. The gameplay is somewhat different than rogue however, because there is city management.
17:15:04 <alise> cpressey: Damn, damn, that's not nearly enough familiarity. You're missing out. :P
17:16:04 <CakeProphet> and combat is highly strategic, from what I've read. I still need to play it.
17:16:08 <alise> SoMI is great fun, MI2 is just amazing (and very long)
17:16:18 <alise> I never could defeat LeChuck at the end though...
17:16:19 <cpressey> CakeProphet: By line-based, do you mean... I have to press "Enter" after I issue a command?
17:16:37 <CakeProphet> cpressey: I'm not entirely sure, but I assume so. That's how most games I've played work
17:17:10 <CakeProphet> traversing a large map, for example, might be character-input
17:17:31 <CakeProphet> as could combat. I'm only guessing though.
17:17:50 <cpressey> I had half-pictured an interactive fiction / roguelike hybrid.
17:17:59 * alise mixes kerosene, propylene glycol, sulphuric acid, artificial sweeteners, red dye no. 2, rum, acetone, battery acid, SCUMM, axle grease and/or pepperoni.
17:19:10 <alise> Gotta mix that sometime (but then stay well away from it, of course).
17:19:15 <alise> Here, CakeProphet should do it.
17:20:51 <alise> They warned about that recipe on Argentinian TV. Telling people not to drink this "Grog XD" -- the XD from a Facebook group title.
17:21:03 <alise> They had doctors wondering WTF "SCUMM" could be live on air.
17:21:10 <alise> CakeProphet: The recipe for grog from Monkey Island.
17:21:29 <alise> SCUMM = Script Creation Utility for Maniac Mansion, the engine powering LucasArts adventure games.
17:21:44 <fizzie> Dwarf Fortress' "predecessor" (Slaves to Armok) was also the craziness; I recall mooz drabbling around with it.
17:21:54 <alise> Heh, the doctor then said that SCUMM was an alcoholic delivery service.
17:22:29 <CakeProphet> ...doesn't everyone get fucked up on Grog XD?
17:22:54 <alise> We have them believing it's just something from a video game...
17:23:03 <CakeProphet> I know I do. The battery acid gives it a nice punch.
17:23:28 <alise> Personally I think a Jenkem / Grog XD mixture is the bomb.
17:24:04 <CakeProphet> I've heard it works better when vaproized into a syringe and then injected.
17:24:24 <cpressey> Or is HHGttG boring now too? Hollywood did lamify it.
17:24:34 <alise> cpressey: I'm too young to drink Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters; it'd kill me instantly.
17:24:48 <alise> H2G2 is still as amazing as ever; it's the movie that sucks.
17:24:58 <alise> CakeProphet: Hmm, I've always injected into the urethra.
17:25:07 <alise> Although sometimes I use the actual penile flesh (technical term).
17:25:11 -!- swilde has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)).
17:25:58 <alise> SOMETIMES I JUST RIP OPEN MY RIBCAGE AND BITE OPEN MY HEART AND POUR ACID INTO IT
17:26:10 <alise> THEN USE A SEWING MACHINE TO FIX IT
17:29:39 <alise> SOMETIMES I JUST URETHRALLY INSERT A PLANE CARRYING A NUCLEAR BOMB AND TURN IT ON AND IT RIPS UP MY BODY AND DETONATES
17:32:24 <cpressey> Well, that is certainly a hard act to follow.
17:33:22 <alise> SOMETIMES I RAPE A BLACK HOLE MADE OUT OF DARK MATTER THEN TELEPORT HALF OF MY BODY TO THE HEART OF THE SUN
17:33:24 -!- coppro has joined.
17:33:39 <alise> Hi coppro! We're talking about inserting things into our urethras and raping black holes.
17:37:48 <CakeProphet> and then watch Inception at the "picture show"
17:39:17 <CakeProphet> well, yes. But I figure by now the feds are watching me on this channel, so I prefer to be discrete. :)
17:41:19 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
17:41:36 <Gregor-W> Hackiki is down and I have no idea why and there's nothing I can do about it because I'm at work wtfwtfwtf
17:45:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
17:47:36 <cpressey> HAH! I just suspended #esoteric!
17:47:47 <alise> pikhq: What do you think the quickest way of copying a file to shared memory is?
17:48:05 <alise> Even ones that only work in special-cases, like say length.
17:50:14 <alise> Flash on 64-bit is so shitty.
17:50:38 <Gregor-W> I suppose mmap doesn't count as "copying"?
17:51:03 <Gregor-W> So in that case, probably mmap+memcpy, but only if memcpy is implemented with much awesometude.
17:51:05 <cpressey> I was wondering what "shared memory" meant. shmget et al?
17:51:18 <Gregor-W> Fair point as well, I figured MAP_SHARED would be sufficient.
17:52:10 <cpressey> "The mmap() function establishes a mapping between a process' address space and a file or shared memory object."
17:52:26 <alise> Erm, by "shared memory" I was trying to say "in-memory filesystem".
17:52:31 <alise> God knows why I said it like that.
17:52:37 <alise> Can you mount a block of memory?
17:52:42 <alise> If so, memory is cool too.
17:52:47 <alise> Like maybe mount some substring of /dev/mem.
17:53:16 <Gregor-W> mmap ... could probably do that?
17:53:25 <alise> Like ... how ... could mmap mount memory?
17:53:37 * alise installs the 64-bit Flash 10 alpha that Adobe retracted.
17:53:55 <cpressey> Confused. I haven't used mmap much.
17:53:59 <alise> Hmm, apparently there's some security issue.
17:54:16 <cpressey> But you and another process could mmap the same file, it looks like, and share memory that way. Maybe?
17:54:28 <alise> cpressey: I didn't mean shared memory dammit. >_>
17:54:36 <cpressey> There are sometimes memory filesystems.
17:54:49 <cpressey> Other times, OSes discourage you from specifying that.
17:54:59 <alise> Err... this is all irrelevant.
17:55:02 <cpressey> "We will decide that!" booms FreeBSD.
17:55:07 <alise> Right now I have two questions:
17:55:17 <alise> (1) Can I mount a substring of RAM as some filesystem?
17:55:27 <alise> (2) If not, what's the quickest way of copying a file to an in-memory filesystem?
17:55:40 <fizzie> It's a bit silly that the "sendfile" syscall only works when the target fd is a socket; one would think it'd be fast for copying a file too.
17:55:55 <Gregor-W> alise: By an "in-memory filesystem", do you mean the illusion of a filesystem presented to a particular process, or a mounted ramfs?
17:55:56 <CakeProphet> ...what is this? some kind of question-procedure? Can we write another procedure that determines whether or not this one halts?
17:56:02 <cpressey> alise: What is your defn of an "in-memory filesystem" if you cannot mount such a thing?
17:56:12 <Gregor-W> alise: That is to say, is it acceptable for the process to have its own special FS layer separate from the OS?
17:56:13 <alise> cpressey: Umm ... tmpfs.
17:56:24 <alise> Gregor-W: Okay, let me explain my full use-case.
17:56:34 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Why would we want to do such a thing?
17:56:45 <alise> I want to write a Linux distro which runs in memory.
17:57:01 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Did I misinterpret the game?
17:57:04 <alise> Therefore the distro will be in a loopback file, like foolinux.ext3.
17:57:14 <alise> How can I mount foolinux.ext3 so that the whole contents are copied into memory?
17:57:17 <Gregor-W> cpressey: DAMN IT ME AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS CHANNEL JUST LOST THE GAME AND IT'S YOUR FAULT
17:57:24 <alise> Ideally, I would load foolinux.ext3 into memory, then mount that memory.
17:57:38 <alise> If that's not possible, I would copy foolinux.ext3 into an in-memory filesystem, then mount that in-memory file.
17:57:58 <Gregor-W> e.g. cramfs will always be expanded and mounted into memory. But I think cramfs is R/O, I think there's a R/W equivalent though.
17:58:18 <cpressey> Gregor-W: DAMN IT THESE NEW FANGLED GAMES CHANGE TOO QUICKLY FOR ME TO KEEP UP
17:58:29 <alise> Files in cramfs have to be <16MiB. Maximum file size is <272MiB.
17:58:33 <alise> *Maximum filesystem size
17:58:50 <Gregor-W> alise: I wasn't suggesting cramfs in particular, just that ext2 will give you no joy.
17:58:52 <alise> Really, I'm fine with just cping an .ext3 into a ramfs; I'm just wondering if there isn't something better.
17:59:02 <alise> i.e., can you mount memory?
17:59:10 <Gregor-W> Because nobody has implemented that.
17:59:42 <fizzie> You can turn a block of memory into a block device if you want.
17:59:51 <Gregor-W> You could write your whole FS into a block of memory, compile that as the .data segment of an ELF file, then call that "mount.myfs" and it would mount without even taking a device argument :P
17:59:55 <alise> fizzie: That would be nice. How?
18:00:34 <fizzie> It's in the "memory technology devices" category; there are two that are based on usin "normal" RAM, IIRC.
18:00:43 <pikhq> alise: tmpfs. tmpfs. tmpfs. tmpfs.
18:00:48 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
18:01:03 <alise> pikhq: No, because if I can bypass the filesystem overhead that'd be better.
18:01:23 <Gregor-W> CakeProphet: There's something wonky with Codu right now.
18:01:30 <pikhq> alise: There's hardly any overhead.
18:01:31 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
18:01:37 <alise> pikhq: But there is some.
18:01:45 <fungot> CakeProphet: ( map procedure ( list item1 item2... itemn)) is a handy thing :) i.e. bending a verb
18:01:49 <alise> fizzie: So, what, is it a command like "makeblock start length /dev/foo"?
18:02:00 <alise> Or a syscall, or what?
18:02:15 <pikhq> alise: Tmpfs exposes the buffers of the VFS as a filesystem.
18:02:20 <CakeProphet> alise: fungot generally has good advice on this kind of thing. i.e. bending a verb
18:02:21 <fungot> CakeProphet: you can perform dispatch however you like so that the condition handler is a function that takes a list of fingerprints at the end
18:02:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:03:31 <fizzie> alise: There are two different kernel drivers; I don't recall how either one works. Module parameters, perhaps. And the block devices thusly created won't be usable as normal RAM, so it's not very convenient.
18:03:47 <alise> fizzie: So could I do this:
18:03:57 <alise> memcpy it to get it in memory
18:04:00 <alise> turn that memory into a block device
18:04:02 <alise> mount the block device?
18:04:10 <pikhq> alise: This is *effectively* tmpfs.
18:04:21 <pikhq> Sorry, not quite. XD
18:04:31 <fizzie> No, you'd dd the fsys image into the block device you set up earlier.
18:04:40 <pikhq> mmap a file. memcpy it to get it in memory. *Use that as the file*.
18:04:43 <alise> That'd be easy. dd is fast.
18:04:57 <alise> pikhq: Wouldn't it be better to do fizzie's suggestion?
18:05:08 <alise> Create block device. dd the filesystem file to that block device. Mount the block device.
18:05:18 <pikhq> alise: I think you're failing to get something.
18:05:23 <Gregor-W> Fine, whatever. If you support COMMUNISM.
18:05:25 <pikhq> Tmpfs is the simplest filesystem.
18:05:29 <alise> I know, I know, pikhq.
18:05:35 <pikhq> *It doesn't require a block device.*
18:05:39 <alise> But Puppy boots slowly. So I'm going to be obsessive about this.
18:05:54 <pikhq> This is the lowest overhead you can get in unpatched Linux for a filesystem.
18:05:55 <alise> Speed is my only concern. I don't want to wait more than a few seconds to load, say, 100 MiB into RAM and mount it.
18:05:56 <fizzie> I might go with the "dump filesystem image's contents into tmpfs or something" thing too; regular filesystems aren't very memory-optimized, I guess.
18:06:05 <alise> Let's say 7 seconds for 100 MiB. *Absolute maximum.*
18:06:19 <pikhq> You're limited by disk speed there.
18:06:21 <alise> fizzie: Oh, I was just going to dump the image itself, then mount that.
18:06:39 <pikhq> USB sticks are slow man.
18:06:48 <alise> Puppy boots slowly.
18:08:24 <CakeProphet> Your mom boots slowly too, but isn't it worth it?
18:09:01 <fizzie> Anyway, you *can* use a memory-based block device if you want. One of the drivers is called "phram" (the newer); another is slram.
18:09:31 <alise> fizzie: Any guesses as the speed vs tmpfs?
18:09:33 <fizzie> There's all kinds of "use graphics card VRAM as a swap device" trickery people do with phram.
18:10:26 <fizzie> No idea. Best to use some XIP-capable file system, at least.
18:11:41 <alise> Does Linux support that?
18:12:17 <alise> Seems only cramfs and some new experimental thing.
18:12:24 <fizzie> No idea; unpatched it might not.
18:12:28 <alise> pikhq: Does Puppy use XIP? I guess not.
18:12:54 <alise> The ability to run programs directly from the filesystem, rather than copying them to RAM first.
18:12:58 <alise> Yes, I just looked that up.
18:13:16 <alise> If it doesn't, then Puppy has two copies of every single program it runs in RAM.
18:13:43 <pikhq> Ah. I don't know. I'd hope it does...
18:13:57 <pikhq> Wait. tmpfs, right?
18:14:04 <alise> Well, considering Linux seems to have two filesystems that support it, the near-useless cramfs and some experimental one...
18:14:09 <alise> Since it uses squashfs.
18:14:25 <pikhq> No, wait, it's squashfs. Never mind.
18:14:35 <alise> So, what, would tmpfs do XIP?
18:14:42 <pikhq> alise: With tmpfs XIP "just works" without any code to support it.
18:15:01 <pikhq> "Hmm. Load program into RAM... Oh wait it's *already there*... Mmmkay."
18:15:05 <fizzie> One would hope it works with tmpfs, since it'd be pretty silly if not.
18:15:06 * cpressey feels a bad interaction lurking with XIP
18:15:26 <cpressey> I hope it locks the executable
18:15:27 <pikhq> All because it exists almost entirely in the virtual filesystem's buffers.
18:15:41 <cpressey> That's the only thing that would make sense
18:16:05 <pikhq> cpressey: Read-only sections of the executable only...
18:16:06 <CakeProphet> since when do software components make sense?
18:16:30 <pikhq> Also, it changes hardly anything anyways.
18:16:36 <fizzie> cpressey: It could do copy-on-write on those data pages or some-such. Besides, don't you want to do live-patching of binaries?
18:16:40 <pikhq> Executables are already just straight-up mmap'd.
18:16:44 <alise> Okay, so, new question.
18:16:48 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Granted. I shall wear the Bucket of Shame on my head for 2 minutes, as a reminder of my folly.
18:16:49 <alise> Can I have a .tmpfs file? :-)
18:16:57 <pikhq> Yes, you just mmap the suckers into RAM.
18:17:05 <pikhq> alise: It's called an "initramfs".
18:17:25 <alise> pikhq: Hmm... of course.
18:17:26 <cpressey> fizzie: If it can be finagled so that it doesn't crash, I would love that, of course.
18:17:34 <alise> pikhq: Having everything in an initramfs is considered unusual, isn't it?
18:17:44 <pikhq> alise: Only slightly.
18:18:02 <CakeProphet> we should create an operating system in which programs are run from hard drive, and persistent data is stored in memory until shutdown when it is written to disk.
18:18:13 <alise> pikhq: I don't like "only slightly".
18:18:22 <alise> CakeProphet: Or an OS where RAM is just disk cache. Oh wait, that's aliseOS.
18:18:24 <pikhq> alise: It's commonly done for *floppy disk* distros.
18:18:33 <alise> Protip: Come up with an OS idea. I've already thought of it.
18:18:44 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and I'll compile the initramfs into the kernel too.
18:18:48 <alise> Because I'm BADASS.
18:18:59 <alise> pikhq: Can you figure an initramfs to run another filename apart from /init?
18:19:03 <alise> Cluttering up / like that is :(.
18:19:18 <pikhq> alise: init=/some/other/filename
18:19:39 <alise> So how fast does an initramfs load?
18:19:50 <pikhq> Depends on the bootloader.
18:20:03 <alise> Okay; which bootloader will load it the fastest?
18:20:33 <pikhq> Probably one of the more full-featured ones, like GRUB...
18:20:47 <pikhq> As the others are a bit more likely to go through BIOS hard drive commands.
18:20:53 <alise> Will it load faster or slower with compression? I guess faster; CPU is fast, disk is slow.
18:20:57 <alise> Especially for USB etc.
18:21:02 <cheater99> alise: do you / did you watch stargate sg-1?
18:21:09 <alise> pikhq: I dunno, SYSLINUX is pretty mature.
18:21:24 <pikhq> alise: LZO is very fast. Definitely faster than your disk.
18:21:32 <alise> pikhq: Ah yes, LZO.
18:21:37 <alise> pikhq: What about LZMA?
18:21:43 <pikhq> It's about a third the speed of *memcpy*.
18:21:46 <alise> cheater99: I watch it now and again.
18:21:49 <pikhq> LZMA is hella-slow to decompress.
18:21:56 <alise> pikhq: No LZMA then.
18:22:00 <alise> What about gzip vs LZO>
18:22:01 <cheater99> who's your favourite character alise?
18:22:06 <pikhq> Hella-slow to *compress*.
18:22:10 <pikhq> Not much slower than gzip.
18:22:17 <pikhq> alise: LZO's a few times faster.
18:22:43 <alise> So would I save more by using LZMA and saving space but with more cPU time, or LZO and have more to read but quicker decompression?
18:22:57 <alise> Furthermore, how's LZO's compression rates vs gzip/LZMA?
18:23:25 <pikhq> LZO's a bit worse than gzip, but not exceptionally.
18:23:32 <alise> So would I save more by using LZMA and saving space but with more cPU time, or LZO and have more to read but quicker decompression?
18:23:36 <pikhq> LZMA is *much* better at compression than gzip.
18:23:37 <alise> I know, impossible question.
18:23:51 <pikhq> alise: That's a function of how quick your CPU is.
18:24:30 * pikhq shall do some testing on how fast LZO is...
18:24:36 <alise> pikhq: Two runs of your algorithm, then: (cpu=cheap core2, disk=USB stick); (cpu=cheap core2, disk=laptop hard drive)
18:24:37 <pikhq> Giant tarball of SNES source, away!
18:25:14 <CakeProphet> pikhq: what? tests? We're not computer scientists here! We're computer speculators!
18:26:49 <alise> aka computer mathematicians *shot*
18:28:16 <CakeProphet> are there compression algorithms that operate sequentially?
18:28:28 <pikhq> Mmm, compressing several gigabytes as a test...
18:28:46 <CakeProphet> can you decompress a sequential stream without having to complete the whole algorithm?
18:29:03 <alise> CakeProphet: you mean you can decompress starting from say half way?
18:29:14 <alise> or do you mean in a stream?
18:29:18 <alise> so it's not load, decompress
18:29:34 <alise> replace x repeated n times with x^n
18:29:48 <alise> decompression: read x^n, output x n times, repeat untl EOF
18:29:52 <CakeProphet> is you make use of two cores that way. Having one decompress the stream and the other do whatever needs to be done with the other.
18:30:09 <CakeProphet> s/with the other/ with the decompressed stream
18:30:17 <pikhq> Y'know what? Actually, I'm going to tar this up first. I'm pretty sure a single sequential file read is faster than reading oodles of files.
18:30:56 <alise> pikhq: For fairness, do it in a tmpfs.
18:31:16 <pikhq> I'm compressing like 12G.
18:31:39 <alise> What, you don't have that much RAM?
18:33:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:34:24 <alise> ais523: Would you be surprised to hear that my Linux distro has taken yet another turn?
18:35:48 <alise> ais523: Now it's going to be loaded into RAM, like Puppy Linux / Tiny Core Linux.
18:37:02 <alise> ais523: For speed and also ... I dunno, simplicity in a way.
18:37:14 <pikhq> It'll be simple enough, anyways.
18:37:15 <alise> It just seems like a good kind of design decision if your distro is small enough.
18:37:21 <alise> Even if you have minimal RAM it should be fine.
18:37:31 <alise> Puppy works just fine with 128 MiB.
18:38:29 <pikhq> And Puppy's actually pretty darned large, considering.
18:38:42 <alise> Well, I doubt Lucid Puppy would work with 128 MiB.
18:38:47 <alise> But older versions that were 80 MiB.
18:40:28 <alise> pikhq: So should I compress the kernel-with-initramfs, or have an uncompressed kernel with a compressed initramfs?
18:40:35 <alise> Whichever is faster, basically. The difference should be minimal. I think.
18:40:40 <pikhq> alise: Whole thing.
18:41:51 <pikhq> Mmkay. Speed test of 16.5GB tarball, AWAY!
18:42:18 <pikhq> It took 12 minutes to *tar*...
18:42:22 <alise> I have two ingrown toenails. :(
18:43:41 <pikhq> lzop appears to be running faster than my disk.
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18:43:57 <pikhq> For *compression*.
18:44:00 <alise> Are you sure it's not just faster than the byte-by-byte car?
18:44:35 <pikhq> alise: It's spending time in the kernel waiting on the disk.
18:44:53 <pikhq> It's jumping between 40% and 70% CPU usage.
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18:46:22 <alise> pikhq: So, LZO'd kernel is probably the best route?
18:46:33 <alise> Booted by a bootloader that doesn't use the BIOS.
18:46:34 <pikhq> I think I'm going to have to compare with cp.
18:47:01 <pikhq> alise: The reason for that last bit is simple: the BIOS's disk reading routines let you read 512b at a time.
18:47:16 <pikhq> And they're naive.
18:47:24 <alise> cheater99: What did you do?
18:47:40 <alise> I'm sort of allergic to going to the doctor's, so I'm doing what every insane person does: self-diagnosing a treatment with Wikipedia.
18:47:43 <pikhq> It'll read a full disk block, and then hand you 512b of it. And then read the same disk block when you ask for the next 512b.
18:48:00 <alise> Well hey, I learned that it's the skin that's the issue, not the nail!
18:48:08 <alise> cheater99: Basically they're poking into the side.
18:48:26 <alise> It's not red as in the kind of red it would be if infected, although it gets red if you bash it of course.
18:48:31 <alise> Mine isn't rotting.
18:48:38 <alise> I've had them for ages, and they're not painful almost always.
18:48:45 <alise> So I'm not too worried; I doubt they're infected.
18:48:57 <alise> And if they haven't got infected by this point I doubt they ever will.
18:49:02 <alise> cheater99: Good observation.
18:49:05 <cheater99> they get dirty sweaty and infected at the first chance
18:49:17 <alise> But if it's been this long?
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18:49:34 <cheater99> i'd had it for years before it got so bad i couldn't get on
18:49:36 <pikhq> Mmm. It would appear that Linux's readahead is *awesome*.
18:49:43 <alise> cheater99: Yeah, uh, mine is just ever so slightly poking in.
18:49:48 <cheater99> if you do it you'll have to stay at home for at least a couple weeks, maybe a month
18:49:55 <alise> Seriously. It looks normal.
18:50:05 <alise> I might just soak them in water.
18:50:18 <alise> That's not what WP says. :P
18:50:22 <alise> aka Lord over Truth
18:50:26 <cheater99> wikipedia never had ingrown toenails
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18:50:42 <alise> OTOH, I trust something with references more than your personal anecdote.
18:51:06 <pikhq> alise: Okay, so compression took 8 minutes, ran at 33 MB/s, and the resulting output was 12G.
18:51:10 <alise> Let's put it this way: These things have been there for a year. They haven't changed at all.
18:51:28 <alise> They are only very slightly pinkish due to the, you know, actual poking, and don't hurt when walking.
18:51:28 <pikhq> 12341538026 bytes vs. 17685739520 bytes.
18:51:28 <cheater99> i have had them for longer than that before they got bad
18:51:38 <alise> My feet have been terribly sweaty and dirty at a few points in that time
18:51:42 <pikhq> Would you like decompression test naow?
18:51:52 <alise> pikhq: Shur, compression doesn't matter so much to me :P
18:51:56 <alise> pikhq: What was the input size?
18:52:07 <cheater99> but at some point the place in the skin gets wounded
18:52:14 <cheater99> and then, the toenail keeps the wound open
18:52:25 <cheater99> and it gets infected and full of pus
18:52:35 <alise> The skin has been wounded.
18:52:37 <pikhq> Okay, decompressing to /dev/null
18:52:47 <alise> Yeah, I know, I'm rationalising.
18:53:01 <alise> Mind, I do have an excellent immune system.
18:53:14 <alise> I had a serious infection recently and only felt slightly icky, and that was because of the strong antibiotics.
18:53:19 <alise> (It was not due to the toenails.)
18:53:45 <cheater99> i get all infections out without drugs
18:54:05 <alise> Well, I wouldn't have got this one out.
18:54:09 <cheater99> i hadn't taken antibiotics in recent times
18:54:18 <alise> I was on an antibiotic they give to people who have serious infections fucking up major internal organs.
18:54:41 <alise> Amusingly, what caused it was falling off a swing I was sitting on. It was not moving (there isn't much place to sit outside in the unit).
18:55:03 <pikhq> alise: 2:45, 71.3MB/s.
18:55:04 <cheater99> possible side effects included blindness and death
18:55:12 <alise> It /tilted/, causing me to fall down, but my feet stayed on. The force caused the string to move, and my feet fell off the swing.
18:55:18 <alise> Gravity noticed, and caused my legs to slam down.
18:55:21 <alise> My knee hit my face.
18:55:25 <alise> Blood. Blood everywhere.
18:55:35 <alise> My mouth is now composed of blood.
18:55:41 <alise> Cut forwards one day.
18:55:42 <coppro> when bleeding, make sure to feint
18:55:48 <alise> The outside of my mouth is swollen.
18:55:52 <pikhq> alise: Now, then. gzip?
18:55:54 <alise> Really swollen. I look like half a cat.
18:56:00 <alise> It leaks pus often.
18:56:02 <alise> Cut forwards one day.
18:56:04 <alise> On serious antibiotics.
18:56:05 <pikhq> Or are you going to be happy with disk-bound compression?
18:56:08 <alise> Cut forwards one week.
18:56:22 <alise> cheater99: Well, it was infected from the start.
18:56:27 <alise> What do you mean one day?
18:56:29 <pikhq> (BTW, that's 570 megabits/sec.)
18:56:36 <cheater99> you said it got swollen in pussy in one day
18:56:50 <alise> Yeah; the next day it was swollen, and leaked pus (very slowly).
18:57:04 <alise> It was pretty awful.
18:57:05 <cheater99> did you break your jaw or something?
18:57:14 <alise> It was just a really bad bash.
18:57:21 <cheater99> jesus, not sure how that could even happen
18:57:37 <alise> cheater99: Gravity is a bitch. I am bony, thus my knee is bony.
18:57:44 <alise> Bone is hard. My mouthy area is not hard. Slam.
18:57:53 <alise> Blood everywhere, huge possibility of infection.
18:58:05 <alise> At some point a little crowd of bacteria swims in and finds a nice, loving home.
18:58:16 <cheater99> didn't you clean it straight away?
18:58:55 <alise> I was at the unit, so it went like this:
18:59:21 <alise> Ran across the garden screaming, someone notices (obviously), "OW OW OW" says I, run inside. Look at self. "Oh jesus". Go upstairs.
18:59:35 <alise> Gets dabbed and cleaned by the doctor.
18:59:54 <alise> Eh, not really. I was in far too much pain to feel any more.
19:00:15 <alise> No. I got paracetamol. :P
19:00:29 <alise> It got infected before I got inside, I wager.
19:01:00 <cheater99> since british playgrounds have this uh
19:01:27 <alise> Oh yeah, I never actually hit the ground with it I don't think.
19:01:32 <alise> Oh, the cords were metal here.
19:01:45 <alise> I imagine it was something floating around in the air.
19:01:56 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
19:02:02 <alise> Yeah, Poland is a shithole. We get it. :P
19:02:17 <cheater99> people get drunk on the playgrounds since that's the only place outside to 'sit around' other than parks
19:02:28 <cheater99> but i'm only leading up to my story
19:02:51 <cheater99> when i was like 6, i was visiting an aunt with my mother and have went to the playground (they let me go on my own)
19:03:09 <cheater99> i took a slide down the slid (bottom up)
19:03:18 <alise> A slide down the slid.
19:03:19 <pikhq> cheater99: Clearly Poland should raze the country and only let non-drunks back in. :P
19:03:21 <alise> Don't you mean you slid down the slide?
19:03:29 <pikhq> It'll be just like the Third Reich!
19:03:38 <cheater99> and the slide was like, out of sheet metal pieces
19:03:40 <alise> I'm pretty sure that, on average, every Pole is always drunk.
19:03:48 <alise> cheater99: Hardcore. :P
19:04:17 <cheater99> and cut the edges of the sheet metal where they come together
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19:04:43 <cheater99> i had like six scars on my legs and stomach
19:05:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:05:39 <cheater99> i was tough enough to find my aunt though in all this (and i've been there like for the first time i think)
19:05:49 <cheater99> so they sewed me up and it was all fine
19:06:06 <cheater99> only one of the scars is left by now and it goes from the knee to the hip :O
19:06:28 <cheater99> and yeah, your statistic is probably right
19:06:45 <alise> pikhq: So, where do you think I should start in developing my distro?
19:07:22 <cheater99> alise: compile Vim into the kernel
19:08:15 <pikhq> alise: Get a freaking build environment.
19:08:24 -!- ais523_ has joined.
19:08:30 <alise> Well, I guess I need a 32-bit thing. But eh.
19:08:32 <pikhq> What, not using static uclibc or some such?
19:08:52 <alise> pikhq: Not static. I'm keeping it complex for this.
19:08:55 <alise> Because complex is easy with Linux.
19:09:28 <pikhq> alise: So, what. Glibc?
19:09:53 <alise> Well, maybe not glibc.
19:10:07 <pikhq> Eglibc? Uclibc? Newlib?
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19:10:31 <pikhq> I think that's all the dynamic libcs for Linux.
19:10:37 <alise> I wonder how much you can strip down eglibc.
19:10:44 <alise> pikhq: You forgot PDClib :P
19:11:04 <alise> Which is only known to people on osdev.org.
19:11:11 <alise> And I keep accidentally palming the trackpad.
19:11:41 * alise decides to support 32-bit with PAE.
19:11:59 <pikhq> So, i686 then. Mmm...
19:12:11 <alise> Because dammit, you should be able to use more than 2 GiB of RAM; but dammit, I can't be arsed to deal with the incompatibility and space waste that comes from allowing every process to use more than 2 GiB.
19:12:20 <alise> pikhq: Well, it won't /require/ PAE.
19:13:08 <pikhq> alise: So... i386 with an i686 PAE kernel
19:13:18 <alise> PAE support, not requirement.
19:13:25 <alise> Window manager will probably be JWM or a modified fvwm95.
19:13:44 <alise> Because try as I might, I can't get used to tiling managers.
19:13:50 <alise> And I like my taskbar.
19:14:06 <pikhq> The suckless guys should do a widgetful WM.
19:14:17 <alise> But that would suck more, I must admit.
19:14:24 <alise> pikhq: wmi/wmii are quite widgety
19:15:05 <pikhq> Gzip is one slow compression algorithm. :P
19:15:18 <alise> Hmm. Any reason to support anything other than Xvesa?
19:15:29 <alise> Xfbdev will never be faster and come on, your system supports VESA, shut up.
19:15:38 <alise> And servers with specific drivers are too large to include; they can be packages.
19:15:40 <pikhq> If your graphics card doesn't support VESA you're a liar.
19:15:50 <alise> Ha, synchronicity.
19:16:13 <cpressey> All Cretan graphics cards lack VESA support.
19:17:18 <cpressey> I'm writing an overview of my vision for my CE.
19:17:42 <cpressey> Will pass it along here when I've done an acceptable draft, but for now -- lunch.
19:17:50 <alise> Stop saying CE. I think Windows CE.
19:17:58 <alise> You won't like me when I think of Windows CE.
19:18:09 <alise> pikhq: Remember when you used to like autohell?
19:18:11 <alise> Those were the days!
19:18:26 <cpressey> The fact that the term CE annoys alise: all the better.
19:18:33 <alise> Hmm. JWM has fribidi support. Why does a window manager need RTL support? Unless all your window titles are Arabic.
19:18:53 <pikhq> alise: I do like it better than the alternative things.
19:19:16 <pikhq> Not so much because it's grand, because HOW DOES EVERYTHING BUT A SIMPLE MAKEFILE SUCK MORE?!? HOWWWW
19:20:16 <pikhq> BTW, most people suck at even making Makefiles.
19:20:17 <alise> pikhq: I recall you yelling at me for writing a 3-line Makefile which didn't use $(CFLAGS) or something and telling me to use autotools instead.
19:20:25 <alise> I didn't use CFLAGS because the makefile was almost literally:
19:20:34 <alise> $(CC) -O2 -Wall foo.c -o foo
19:20:34 <pikhq> alise: Once upon a time.
19:20:47 <pikhq> BTW, I now know a better reason to yell at you.
19:20:49 <alise> pikhq: On a dark and stormy night.
19:21:03 <pikhq> That could be simpler.
19:21:07 <alise> Xinerama? Jesus christ, who gives a shit about xinerama!
19:21:12 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I know, foo: foo.c.
19:21:19 <alise> But that generates output with a ton of spaces because of empty variables.
19:21:34 <alise> --with-x use the X Window System
19:21:37 <alise> Yes, JWM, I would like that.
19:21:38 <pikhq> alise: Not even "foo: foo.c".
19:21:58 <alise> pikhq: Convince me to enable fribidi support in JWM.
19:22:05 <alise> You're the defender of all things Unicodey, after all.
19:22:10 <pikhq> alise: You *like* good text rendering.
19:22:22 <alise> pikhq: I do... but my distro will be English-only, anyway.
19:22:37 <alise> So it'll affect... Web page titles with Arabic in them. In the window title.
19:22:45 <pikhq> In which case set your freaking locale to C and purge all of Unicode anyways.
19:22:45 <alise> And I'll have to include a whole library and also a bigger WM for it.
19:22:56 <alise> pikhq: Well, no, I want accents and stuff to /work/.
19:23:01 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
19:23:03 <alise> But things like Arabic rendering properly /in window titles/?
19:23:07 <alise> I really find it hard to care, you know?
19:23:29 <pikhq> alise: Then your locale shall be en.UTF8
19:23:39 <pikhq> In which case *get it all working properly or else*.
19:23:55 <alise> Y'know what? No. :P
19:24:00 * pikhq shall find an example
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19:24:21 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Arabicrender.png The top is what happens if you don't do it right.
19:24:21 <alise> Sure. Find an example of not supporting RTL text in a window manager having a noticeable effect on someone who's decided to use an English-only OS anyway.
19:24:31 <pikhq> The middle is the same, but right-to-left.
19:24:36 <pikhq> The bottom is the proper text.
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19:24:54 <alise> pikhq: The most I could achieve is the middle.
19:25:00 <alise> FriBiDi doesn't actually render anything.
19:25:28 <pikhq> alise: Freetype should do the actual complex text layout correctly.
19:25:37 <alise> pikhq: I don't believe JWM uses Freetype.
19:25:42 <alise> It has a direct Xft configuration option.
19:25:44 <pikhq> Does it support xft fonts?
19:25:47 <alise> Seeming to imply it goes lower than that.
19:26:05 <pikhq> I HATE X11S HANDLING OF TEXT SO MUCH
19:26:07 <alise> Therefore I'm fucking over Arabic people anyway.
19:26:23 <alise> Therefore I think between unreadable and more space usage and unreadable and less space usage I will pick the latter. No FriBidi for you!
19:26:33 <pikhq> Xft goes through freetype...
19:27:01 <alise> How big is FriBidi?
19:27:15 <pikhq> But... Then again.
19:27:21 <pikhq> Freetype actually doesn't do the complex text layout.
19:27:48 <alise> Therefore no FriBidi.
19:27:59 <pikhq> That's the job of ICU, Pango, Harfbuzz, or Graphite...
19:28:06 <pikhq> Why are there 4 libraries for it. D:
19:28:16 <alise> Do I need to support the Shape extension? All it gets me is fucking xeyes.
19:28:48 <pikhq> XRender is *good*. You *like* Xrender.
19:28:57 <pikhq> Unless you're, y'know, omitting all antialiasing.
19:28:58 <alise> Does the WM need it?
19:29:27 <pikhq> Okay, probably not.
19:29:38 <pikhq> Unless you want alpha blending.
19:29:46 <alise> New question: Any apps that have xpm icons and not png icons? Answer: No.
19:29:49 <alise> xpm disabled. JPEG and PNG enabled.
19:29:58 <alise> (JWM also does a rudimentary wallpaper+desktop.)
19:30:07 <pikhq> alise: Alternately, only XPM. :P
19:30:20 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/yak/jwm-2.0.1$ CFLAGS="-Os" ./configure --disable-{xinerama,xrender,shape} --enable-{png,jpeg} --prefix=$HOME/yak/sandbox
19:33:03 <alise> OK, jwm with those options, dynamically linked against glibc with -Os, is 176 KiB.
19:33:12 <alise> Not bad for the whole desktop, wallpaper and window manager.
19:33:59 <pikhq> Hmm. I should try building the Arena web browser...
19:34:21 <pikhq> I wonder how large it is.
19:34:31 <pikhq> Granted, it'd not be *much* use. But still.
19:34:35 <alise> Clearly you should build Amaya. Note: Amaya is awful.
19:36:53 <alise> Ugh... JWM's configuration is XML.
19:37:24 <alise> pikhq: Rate this idea: Patch lwm (http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html) to support simple buttons on windows, make it look a bit nicer and use Xft, and then write a simple panel program.
19:37:33 <cpressey> Hey, *I* suck at even making Makefiles.
19:37:46 <cpressey> ... so is it really gonna be called Yak Linux?
19:37:51 <pikhq> alise: Could be nice.
19:38:03 <pikhq> cpressey: Make is easy. The trick is to not ever complicate things.
19:38:13 <pikhq> And no, you are not allowed to do recursive make.
19:38:15 <alise> Yak Linux: comes pre-shaven.
19:38:37 <pikhq> Did I mention "fuck no"?
19:39:03 <pikhq> alise: Recursive make is EVIL INCARNATE
19:39:05 <cpressey> pikhq: How do I define a general rule in a way that both BSD make and GNU make understand? I've never figured that out. I just write them longhand.
19:39:17 <cpressey> pikhq: Agreed on recursive make.
19:39:25 <alise> pikhq: I used recursive make once for a coreutils.
19:39:27 <pikhq> cpressey: .foo.bar:
19:39:40 <alise> It made sense there, since you only ever used the top level for building the whole thing.
19:40:01 <alise> pikhq: OK, let's put it this way: Recently, the Plan 9 team wrote a recursive Makefile. Unashamedly. But they did it properly.
19:40:02 <pikhq> The thing is, recursive make breaks all dependency information.
19:40:31 <cpressey> I'd prefer a shell script called make.sh, over recursive make, anyday.
19:40:35 <pikhq> The only way to legitimately do it is if you have *no* cross-subdir dependencies.
19:40:45 <pikhq> In which case you might as well make a simple shell script.
19:40:47 <alise> pikhq: Such as when writing a coreutils.
19:40:57 <alise> No, because make can avoid rebuilding things.
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19:41:17 <pikhq> The simple shell script calls multiple make instances.
19:41:34 <pikhq> alise: Oh, also, recursive make makes avoiding rebuilding things much more difficult.
19:41:56 <pikhq> Because you have to call several instances of make just to figure out "Oh, nothing to do".
19:42:22 <alise> pikhq: Quick! Tell me a terminal that doesn't use a crazily wacked out interface different from everything else like xterm does!
19:42:22 <cpressey> Could be worse. Coulda done recursive Ant.
19:42:33 <pikhq> For more information, see "Recursive Make Considered Harmful".
19:42:49 <pikhq> alise: A *simple* terminal?
19:42:57 <pikhq> Does not exist; here, have an editor.
19:42:59 <ais523> alise: gnome-terminal is pretty sane, but rather complex
19:43:02 <alise> pikhq: Not necessarily.
19:43:09 <pikhq> st's probably the closest.
19:43:10 <ais523> also, Linux console terminal, if you don't care about a GUI
19:43:11 <alise> Just something that isn't crazy like xterm and urxvt.
19:43:19 <alise> You know, proper vt100 emulation, but saner keybindings.
19:44:00 <alise> cpressey: Sorry. I am not emulating vt100.
19:44:25 <alise> Maybe YakEd. Maybe YakWM.
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19:47:01 <pikhq> alise: How's about writing something that uses VTE?
19:47:13 <alise> Isn't that a library that emulates a vt100 for you?
19:47:15 <alise> Does it provide a widget?
19:47:26 <pikhq> Ohwait. It's GNOME.
19:47:39 <alise> Almost got excited.
19:48:19 <pikhq> Though it *only* appears to depend on GTK...
19:48:32 <cpressey> What license is screen? Maybe it could be ripped outta there...
19:48:33 <alise> pikhq: Then I can write it with Vala or Genie.
19:48:40 <alise> cpressey: GPL, probably.
19:48:49 <pikhq> cpressey: GPL, probably.
19:48:54 <alise> pikhq: Ideally I'd like a Vala or Genie that bound to, say, FLTK.
19:49:05 <cpressey> Or maybe screen could be "welded" to a GUI window.
19:49:20 <alise> screen itself outputs VT100 codes.
19:49:24 <pikhq> Maybe you could just look at st?
19:49:31 <cpressey> alise: Does it? I thought it used curses.
19:49:37 <alise> cpressey: Well, okay.
19:49:47 <alise> pikhq: st is a bit not what I want though.
19:49:51 <pikhq> It does use curses.
19:49:52 <cpressey> It certainly requires libncurses
19:49:56 <alise> I want a conventional terminal wrapped in a wrapper that doesn't suck.
19:50:04 <pikhq> alise: You could start with it and work from there.
19:50:15 <cpressey> Modify curses to do some kind of monospace GUI character placement, and whammo.
19:50:16 <alise> pikhq: If I'm talking to GTK, I'm not using C.
19:50:19 <pikhq> One of the nice things about Suckless code is that it is all pretty understandable.
19:50:30 <alise> I just realised. screen on a VT100 terminal is a self-interpreter. :-)
19:50:36 <alise> pikhq: Because that would involve GObject.
19:50:39 <pikhq> alise: And yes, if you're talking to GTK there's no fucking way you're using C.
19:50:48 <alise> GObject can be fine when wrapped.
19:50:54 <alise> GObject/C is just ...
19:50:56 <alise> It's just GObject/C.
19:51:13 <pikhq> GObject feels more like a language implementation than a user API.
19:53:02 <alise> pikhq: Wait, I forgot. FLTK is C++.
19:53:27 <alise> How can anyone screw up such a breath of fresh air in that way?
19:54:09 <pikhq> alise: Xlib, anyone?
19:54:57 <alise> pikhq: What about it?
19:55:15 <pikhq> Granted, it's also agony to use, but that's beside the point.
19:55:23 <alise> pikhq: BTW, smallX includes its own tiny Xlib. So if I could find the sources and if we could get them to build, we could really shrink X11 stuff.
19:55:39 <coppro> they're working on a replacement for Xlib
19:55:47 <alise> coppro: you mean XCB?
19:55:53 <pikhq> alise: BTW, gzip compression went at 13.6MB/s, took 20 minutes.
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19:55:54 <alise> and it's more bloated
19:55:57 <alise> which is the whole problem
19:56:10 <alise> xcb did one thing right: asynchronicity
19:56:16 <alise> then they decided XLIB WASN'T LOW-LEVEL ENOUGH
19:59:38 <pikhq> alise: Decompression went at 50.4MB/s, and took 3:19.
19:59:48 <pikhq> The resulting file was 9.8GB.
19:59:58 <alise> So ... LZO made it bigger?
20:00:10 <pikhq> Yes, LZO aims for *speed*.
20:00:26 <pikhq> alise: Oh, wait. Sorry, your confusion is my fault.
20:00:33 <pikhq> alise: The source file was 16GB.
20:00:46 <pikhq> Gzip compressed it was 9.8GB, LZO compressed it was 12GB.
20:00:59 <alise> "Decompression [...] The resulting file was 9.8GB."
20:01:02 <alise> You can see how I was confused,
20:04:18 <cpressey> alise: You know, it is entirely possible we're distantly related. My mom's family is from Britain.
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20:05:13 <alise> cpressey: How are we ever going to get married so I can enter the US now?!
20:05:42 <cpressey> alise: We'll claim we're different species! They'll love that.
20:05:44 <alise> I live in a world where bigamy is legal but incestuous marriage is not.
20:07:09 <pikhq> alise: Federal government won't recognise it.
20:09:04 <pikhq> Actually, it's the "gay" bit.
20:19:02 <alise> Pfft, gay marriage is the only accepted form of marriage in my world.
20:19:11 <alise> Everyone is polyamorously gay with everyone but their own family.
20:22:51 <alise> pikhq: I can't figure out what to do next w/ Yak :(
20:24:46 <alise> Because incest is illegal!
20:24:59 <cheater99> if incest is wrong, then i don't want to be right!!!
20:25:26 <alise> As is heterosexuality.
20:28:23 <alise> pikhq: Meet the new kernel, same as the old kernel.
20:28:27 <pikhq> Sorry, new kernel marked stable in Gentoo.
20:28:42 <pikhq> cheater99: LZMA support for squashfs!
20:29:02 <alise> pikhq: Omigod, FLTK actually has a semi-decent theme.
20:29:18 <pikhq> And a 300% increase in speed on threaded page faults on x86_64...
20:30:41 <pikhq> It's a decent compressed filesystem is all.
20:31:26 <cheater99> "a fish has saved my life once" "how?" "i ate it"
20:32:28 <alise> cheater99: what channel?
20:33:11 <cheater99> only turn it on if you know german
20:34:48 <alise> I thought you were in the UK.
20:35:07 <alise> Or can you receive it all the way here?
20:37:30 <cheater99> i might return to the uk soon though
20:37:51 <cheater99> i could abduct you and get you drunk at a pub or something
20:37:59 <alise> Oh, I thought you were just planning to go to Germany.
20:38:05 <alise> Cambridge; like Oxford for retards.
20:38:15 <cheater99> i'm not trying to get into cambridge
20:38:29 <cheater99> i just have a buddy there who works at the uni, and i might get a job in cambridge too
20:39:32 <cheater99> if i do, i'll rent a room from him and will enjoy the place for some time
20:40:53 <cheater99> as far as universities i have tried to get into oxford, not cambridge :D
20:42:32 <alise> cambridge: oxford for murderers
20:42:45 <alise> actually i dunno if the murderers or non-murderers split
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20:53:57 <cheater99> there was uproar in oxford after the students killed a peasant
20:54:16 <cheater99> some to the polytechnique, some to cambridge, some elsewhere
20:54:30 <alise> no, cambridge was founded by oxfordians leaving oxford because of that
20:54:33 <cheater99> after some time they came back from cambridge to oxford, some stayed because they liked it there
20:55:07 <cheater99> when i said they went to cambridge, i meant they went to the plot of land at the river cam that some of the monks/lords had bought.
20:55:33 <cheater99> so they sat it out and then they went back to their luxurious residences
20:55:37 <alise> anyway not all of them ran away did they
20:56:14 <alise> that isn't the story i hear from my friend ;) ofc there's only, what, total bias there
20:56:21 <cheater99> it was a typical case of the simple man being unhappy with the privileges of higher spheres
20:57:00 <alise> why did they kill the peasant anyway
20:57:20 <cheater99> that was long ago and i wasn't paying attention.
20:57:34 <alise> cheater99 was born ten thousand years ago
20:59:31 <cheater99> if you want good shoes, go to oxford though
21:00:49 <cheater99> a student is not allowed to own dogs, hawks, bears, or any other hunting animals
21:01:10 <cheater99> but if you do it can be fed free at the meadows
21:01:16 <pikhq> Clearly all Oxford students should have a pet cow.
21:01:31 <cheater99> you're not allowed to shoot bows at university grounds.
21:05:21 <cheater99> it's got this half chinese guy, what's his name
21:06:13 <alise> Foh my ocking god.
21:07:06 <cheater99> the final boss is dubbed by the same guy who dubbed spock in TOS
21:08:01 <alise> Spock was dubbed? I had no idea.
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21:10:58 <alise> Because the language is Perfectsprachen.
21:11:18 <cheater99> but i wager a bet that the voices make the movies better rather than worse
21:11:29 <alise> If they're bad movies, maybe.
21:11:33 <cheater99> sometimes i'll watch the original version and the actor has this wimpy voice
21:11:45 <cheater99> or the voices are barely audible since there's no post-prod
21:11:55 <alise> I'm trying to imagine anime with German voices now.
21:15:01 <alise> Yeah, Germany does seem to have a rather high weeaboo population. Quite strange.
21:15:10 <alise> Germany's a bit of an odd place really.
21:15:25 <cheater99> it's very tolerant of anything crazy
21:15:34 <zzo38> I prefer Star Trek instead of Star Wars, anyways. But I am Canadian
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21:16:01 <coppro> to both of the assertions in that sentence
21:16:11 <alise> cheater99: Some. I'm not a weeaboo but I can appreciate a good [imaginary singular of anime].
21:16:29 <alise> Star Trek is entertaining bad sci-fi, Star Wars is entertaining space opera
21:16:35 <pikhq> alise: "anime" is the singular.
21:16:36 <zzo38> You don't need a sinular/plural of "anime"
21:16:36 <alise> star trek is the more entertaining of the two
21:16:39 <alise> pikhq: I know, I know, but :P
21:16:42 <cheater99> either that or another kungfu movie... yup
21:16:46 <zzo38> s/sinular/singular/
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21:17:02 <pikhq> alise: The plural of anime, if there exists one at all, is animetachi.
21:17:16 <alise> Animetachi. Really now.
21:17:33 <pikhq> "-tachi" is "a group of".
21:17:41 <pikhq> Normally, plurals don't exist in Japanese.
21:17:54 <pikhq> But there are ways to specify that you are quite explicitly discussing more than one of something.
21:17:59 <pikhq> That is one of those ways.
21:18:43 <zzo38> I read the logs, in the US it is illegal to sell a computer without operating system? Is it allowed to be external disk? If it is required an operating system is it required to have a hard drive to install an operating system, or can it be in ROM?
21:18:53 <cheater99> there just isn't enough japanese around me
21:19:01 <cpressey> Clearly anime is the second-person past tense of animer
21:19:04 <ais523> zzo38: IIRC, it has to have an operating system, but a floppy disc with FreeDOS on is enough
21:19:10 <ais523> and the most common workaround
21:19:32 <cheater99> cpressey: what language would that be in?
21:19:32 <zzo38> ais523: So is allowed if it comes with a floppy disk and a floppy drive (otherwise there is no way to use it!), even if there is no hard drive?
21:19:41 <alise> ais523: that's what I Said
21:19:56 <cpressey> cheater99: the language where infinitive verbs always end in "er"
21:19:58 <ais523> although people would be unlikely to buy a computer without a hard drive nowadays
21:20:15 <cheater99> cpressey: what language would that be
21:20:16 <pikhq> cheater99: Moxtuto nihonnkﾞo siyo~.
21:20:55 <pikhq> cpressey: Anime is the abbreviation of animesixyon(animeshon). Which is of course Japanese for animation.
21:21:11 <alise> Anime should technically refer to French animation :P
21:21:38 <cheater99> you're totally romanizing this like you're on lsd
21:21:38 <pikhq> cheater99: Nani? Hﾞoku no henn na ro-masﾞi kﾞa suki sﾞixyanai ka? Ikenaine.
21:21:54 <pikhq> cheater99: I'm doing a bizarre encoding of kana. :D
21:22:11 <cheater99> yeah, if by bizarre you mean WRONG.
21:22:18 <zzo38> It seems a logical romanization but strange a bit
21:22:30 <pikhq> No, no, it's just very very systematic.
21:22:40 <zzo38> Not exactly like the same sound in English letters, but still a way to romamize kana in a well way
21:22:48 <zzo38> It is a more exact way.
21:23:03 <zzo38> Like where "x" indicates small letters, and so on
21:23:05 <cheater99> there is no inexactness about the standard way of romanizing.
21:23:16 <zzo38> And using grid romaji for most other letters
21:23:17 <pikhq> Uh, there actually is.
21:23:37 <pikhq> It doesn't distinguish between ぢ and じ, or づ and ず.
21:24:00 <pikhq> Which I encode as tﾞi and sﾞi, or tﾞu and sﾞu.
21:24:33 <pikhq> Tchi is the Hepburn encoding of っち.
21:24:42 <pikhq> And dzu is not Hepburn.
21:24:45 <cheater99> where have you been learning japanese - samurai sushi?
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21:25:02 <alise> cheater99: you're wrong and pikhq is right
21:25:24 <cheater99> i was taught by a japanese and i remember that much
21:25:56 <pikhq> Anyways: each kana gets encoded into ro-masﾞi as a consonant-vowel pair. The moraic ん is encoded as "nn". Diacritics (the dakuten and handakuten) are encoded as the half-width katakana versions of each. A small kana is represented by putting x before the consonant.
21:26:08 <alise> cheater99: your romanisations do not fit into any one romanisation system
21:26:15 <alise> you're just mixing shit around :P
21:26:16 <pikhq> A long vowel is encoded as in kana if the word is hiragana, or using - if the word is katakana.
21:26:19 <zzo38> The problem is just using non-ASCII characters, but if you are going to use non-ASCII anyways just write directly in kana? Just use "di zi du zu" might still fit with your system if you want to use only ASCII
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21:26:40 <alise> pikhq: Those `` chars should be superscripts on the next letter or something, they break the text up weirdly.
21:26:40 <zzo38> And encode moraic n always as "n'" is one way
21:26:41 <cheater99> alise: you're not a weaboo, stay out of this, silly european
21:26:51 <alise> cheater99: you said you don't know jp yourself
21:26:57 <pikhq> zzo38: If it's ASCII only, dakuten(ﾞ) is ` and handakuten(ﾟ) is ^.
21:27:10 <alise> Superscript dakuten!
21:27:32 <pikhq> alise: Sadly, they're not combining characters.
21:27:44 <cheater99> will it be insulting enough if i say i'm gonna go watch king of the hill cause it's more entertaining?
21:27:50 <alise> pikhq: You know Erdos' name?
21:27:50 <pikhq> alise: If there were such in Unicode, I'd use that instead.
21:27:55 <alise> Use the diacritic on that.
21:28:02 <zzo38> Still it doesn't make sense to me to use the dakuten and handakuten in romaji text, since if those are available you can use kana instead.
21:28:03 <alise> Close enough, you know? Like romanisations are close enough to kanji. :P
21:28:13 <pikhq> cheater99: あんたが日本語分かるか。
21:28:18 <alise> handakuten can be the o on top of Swedish's a-with-o char
21:28:40 <zzo38> alise: That is still not ASCII.
21:28:42 <pikhq> There are combining versions of it.
21:29:16 <zzo38> Why are you using romaji if it is unicode anyways??
21:29:18 <alise> zzo38: I don't care :P
21:29:34 <zzo38> (In my IRC client, I can receive Unicode but not send it)
21:29:34 <pikhq> cheater99: ﾊﾝｶｸｶﾅ ｶﾞ ｲｲ ﾃﾞｽ ｶ｡
21:30:09 <cheater99> way to go encoding japanese in katakana.
21:30:20 <pikhq> (ﾌﾙｲ ｺﾝﾋﾟｭｰﾀ ｶﾞ ｺﾉ ﾖｳﾆ ﾊﾝｶｸｶﾅ ｦ ﾂｶｯﾀ｡ ﾍﾝﾀﾞ ﾈ｡)
21:30:23 <cpressey> Just testing if I could send unicode.
21:30:27 <pikhq> Congrats, you just said "sun"!
21:31:04 <alise> pikhq: Write some stuff in the combining chars :P
21:31:25 <pikhq> alise: But that requires making it so I can actually input them...
21:31:52 <zzo38> There are however, common Japanese words with common romanizations that should be used when writing English text, even if unicode is available. But if you are trying to include Japanese text inside of an English text, romaji should not be used if unicode is available.
21:31:57 <alise> This is the correct spelling of Nihongo.
21:32:00 <pikhq> BTW, the ellipsis-equivalent is …….
21:32:27 <pikhq> Two characters' worth.
21:33:48 <pikhq> cheater99: とにかく、日本語で上手く話せるか。
21:34:10 <zzo38> I have 2 pokeballs in my drawer, the same drawer with the shogi game.
21:34:51 <cheater99> "you don't know who i am but i know where you live and if you start that sexual education course god help me i will" "- dale is that you?" "uh yes, can i speak to peggy?"
21:35:14 <alise> pikhq: kana is showing as sans but kanji as serif >_<
21:35:15 <zzo38> In the same drawer I also have a laminated paper that says "POCKET MONSTER PHILOSOPHICAL LEVEL 111" and with a wire through two holes in it.
21:35:29 <pikhq> alise: That sucketh.
21:35:35 <alise> so i assume i only have a sans kana font
21:35:41 <pikhq> Gothic & Mincho, BTW.
21:35:42 <zzo38> alise: Maybe whatever font(s) you use does something,
21:35:44 <alise> better than the unantialiased bitmap fonts in older ubuntu
21:35:47 <zzo38> Do you have a Chinese font installed?
21:35:49 <cheater99> pikhq: way to go encoding english as hiragana
21:35:52 <zzo38> That might be messing it up
21:36:11 <pikhq> cheater99: Waitwhat?
21:36:29 <cheater99> you can just speak to me in english
21:36:44 <cheater99> i'll believe you if you just say 'i speak japanese ok'
21:37:34 <pikhq> cheater99: It's when you start making claims that my bizarrely pedantic romanisation scheme is somehow "wrong" that I take offense, man.
21:37:45 <pikhq> And when you say ぢ is 'tchi'...
21:38:04 <pikhq> So, yes, after that I'm going to ask you if you can speak Japanese well, in Japanese.
21:38:59 <alise> pikhq: Please tell me a GUI toolkit that doesn't suck.
21:39:29 <pikhq> あるそ、 ずぃっす いっず いんぐりっし えん ひらがな。
21:39:46 <zzo38> alise: What are you writing that needs a GUI toolkit? And what operating system is the software for?
21:39:55 <zzo38> Because those can change which ones you might use, also
21:40:05 <pikhq> (also, *that* is English in hiragana.)
21:40:18 <alise> zzo38: Something that needs to be small and not totally ugly, Linux/C/X11.
21:40:37 <cheater99> no idea what that's supposed to mean
21:41:01 <cheater99> it's a good thing i can split my attention across this and king of the kill
21:41:21 <alise> cpressey: Stop that. :P
21:41:33 <pikhq> cheater99: "Aruso, zlissu izzu ingurisshi en hiragana", using mostly-Hepburn.
21:41:33 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes it is English in hiragana. Not generally the best thing to do, and it doesn't work well, but I can see what it is
21:41:44 <pikhq> cheater99: Or, to clean it up, "Also, this is English in hiragana."
21:42:02 <cpressey> alise: Maybe you can write a C wrapper for FLTK.
21:42:12 <pikhq> zzo38: Yup. This is how people in Japan start learning English. Painful, no?
21:42:15 <cpressey> Heck, people write C++ wrappers for C libraries all the time, why not the other way around?
21:42:33 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is not a good way of doing so at all.
21:42:36 <alise> cpressey: Possible, but a pain.
21:42:58 <cpressey> alise: All I know is, I don't know. They all seem to suck to me, too.
21:43:05 <cpressey> FLTK seemed to come closest to not sucking.
21:43:51 <cpressey> Qt makes me gag, as does Tcl/Tk. Not entirely sure why, but they do. GTK is awful, but better than those.
21:44:47 <alise> The IT Crowd is so awesome.
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21:45:07 <zzo38> I think Xaw is OK with a few enhancements that might be made, but it is no good for Ubuntu. Perhaps write a code that can work with multiple toolkits and has a separate file for codes specific to different toolkit it will automatically do
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21:45:19 <zzo38> Use the C preprocessor if you have to
21:46:09 <zzo38> And I even asked the question on 10.07.15 20:04:25 nobody answer yet
21:46:46 <alise> I'm not watching any episode atm, I was just exclaiming.
21:46:56 <alise> zzo38: Xaw is so ugly my eyes actually bleed, though.
21:47:01 <cheater99> i liked the one they found the guy in the closet
21:47:05 <alise> Here, ais523, you name a non-awful GUI toolkit.
21:47:38 <zzo38> I happen to think Xaw is OK, but not with Ubuntu and GNOME and that kind of stuff.
21:48:08 <alise> ais523: FLTK, if it weren't C++.
21:48:22 <alise> zzo38: I'm no GNOME fan or what have you but I can't stand Xaw.
21:48:40 <zzo38> alise: I am no GNOME fan either
21:48:52 <alise> cheater99: wxWidgets is shit anywhere :P
21:49:00 <alise> And it still uses GTK at the bottom on X11.
21:50:46 <zzo38> But what I know is if I write Linux distribution, the GUI programs would use a somewhat enhanced version of Xaw. (But there wouldn't be a lot of GUI programs anyways, most programs would run by command-line)
21:53:37 <cpressey> ais523: Indeed, Java's whole GUI schtick is not bad. But it does tie you to Java, or rather, things you can compile to the JVM. Unless you know otherwise, sir :)
21:53:51 <ais523> cpressey: it has issues other than that
21:54:08 <ais523> in that it has massive NIH syndrome
21:54:10 <alise> ais523: Such as being horribly slow, being Java, ...
21:54:17 <cpressey> s/not bad/not *that* bad, in the scheme of things/
21:56:07 <cheater99> Santa's hand crept a little higher on the little girl's thigh. His touch was light but insistent as his fingers stroked her smooth skin just an inch below the hem of her short skirt. Penny held her breath, hardly able to believe that this happening. Surely Father Christmas wasn't suppose to do things like that. She watched mesmerized as Santa's hand moved slowly but surely upwards. His hand was under her skirt now, caressing and stro
21:56:07 <cheater99> king the soft sensitive skin on the inside of her leg, just above her knee.
21:56:13 <cpressey> But clearly, someone needs to write a FLTK wrapper in C.
21:57:39 <alise> cpressey: Or YakWindows.
21:59:31 <alise> I'm at a loss as to where to start with Yak.
22:02:04 <cpressey> alise: Well, why did you feel a need for a GUI toolkit again?
22:02:14 <alise> To write GUI things in.
22:02:23 <zzo38> What program are you writing, specifically?
22:03:57 <cpressey> zzo38: She's putting together a Linux distro.
22:03:57 <alise> Utilities for Yak.
22:04:39 <alise> I guess YakWM would be the thing to start with, but that involves Xlib.
22:04:53 <alise> Say, can you have a non-reparenting WM that draws borders? pikhq?
22:05:37 <zzo38> OK write a Linux distro.
22:05:48 <pikhq> You reparent for the explicit purpose of having something to draw the borders on.
22:05:57 <cpressey> zzo38: I'm way on the "write your own OS" end of the pool, myself.
22:06:24 <alise> pikhq: What if you drew the borders in your own window around wherever the window is now?
22:06:35 <cpressey> Of course, it ends up being Smalltalk, no matter what you do, but somehow we trudge forward...
22:06:47 <pikhq> alise: That's what reparenting is.
22:07:06 <pikhq> You create your own window and declare that window's parent is your window.
22:07:10 <alise> pikhq: No, not even parenting.
22:07:11 <zzo38> What I know is I will instead do it by modifying Xaw: Add keyboard functions (including tabstop and accelerator keys), and mouse choirding. And also condifuration file to set colors/fonts/etc, so that you can tell the difference of some button/toggle by colors, a few additional widgets, not much more.
22:07:19 <zzo38> But most programs in my Linux distro will be command-line programs.
22:07:23 <zzo38> Hardly any GUI programs
22:07:28 <alise> Just make your border window slightly bigger than the window, and draw it straight behind.
22:07:31 <alise> Move it when that window moves.
22:07:33 <zzo38> cpressey: I also started writing my own OS!
22:07:48 <pikhq> alise: So... You want your own window around it, but PURE MAGIC to make them have any relation with the window being bordered.
22:08:39 <alise> pikhq: Yes. Because windows shouldn't go down with the WM ship.
22:08:52 <zzo38> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/XiYf http://sprunge.us/bIfX
22:09:02 <pikhq> alise: No way to do it in X.
22:09:21 <pikhq> Well, except for using X compositing.
22:09:29 <cpressey> I gave up making my own distro (of DragonflyBSD :)) long ago
22:09:48 <pikhq> In this case, you create your own windows and tell the programs to draw off-screen and you just ship events back and forth.
22:09:51 <alise> pikhq: How can I make my WM not intrusive then?
22:09:55 <cpressey> zzo38: Ooh, PD example code for entering unreal mode. You are my hero.
22:10:02 <alise> I don't think WMs should hold windows hostage in case of their death.
22:10:14 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes. Now you can do that too!
22:10:16 <alise> cpressey: We need surreal mode.
22:10:30 <zzo38> But when I get a new computer I will write a Linux distribution.
22:11:15 <zzo38> Likely with a lot of differences from other ones. Such as, no long options. Some difference in the commands. Different package manager. No web browser in core.
22:11:38 <zzo38> A new window manager and new shell.
22:12:24 <zzo38> It probably won't be POSIX anymore, although it is close enough that POSIX programs should run with making only a few changes (or no changes, in some cases).
22:13:18 <alise> pikhq: ~/.menu/Editors/Emacs{,.icon.png}
22:13:31 <alise> pikhq: Why hasn't anyone thought of this before me? OK, so I half-stole the idea, but still.
22:13:38 <alise> And ~/.menu/Editors/.icon.png, ofc.
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22:13:48 <alise> Just for simplicity.
22:14:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Eh, Linux isn't POSIX anyways.
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22:16:44 <zzo38> Even /proc/ would work differently in my system. But not entirely differently, just with a few differences and some things added, and write-access to individual process directories (with certain permissions)
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22:17:51 <pikhq> /proc is not POSIX.
22:17:59 <zzo38> When I make these changes, shell scripts will very likeli break, but most programs written in C will continue to work (although sometimes a few small changes might be needed)
22:18:06 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know /proc/ is not POSIX
22:18:17 <zzo38> Still I would change it a bit to make improvement
22:18:24 <pikhq> Therefore, feel *free* to hack the fuck out of it.
22:18:37 <pikhq> If anything breaks from that, you didn't want it anyways.
22:19:29 <alise> pikhq: You mean like ps?
22:19:46 <pikhq> alise: Didn't. Want. It.
22:20:14 <zzo38> I probably won't change it so much to break ps but I might modify ps anyways
22:20:41 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html <-- There be my vision. Quite sketchy so far.
22:22:32 <zzo38> cpressey: The codes I posted for unreal mode is 888ASM anyways, so if you use a different assembler (which is likely) you will have to rewrite these codes in your assembler instead.
22:22:57 <cpressey> zzo38: Hm, I do (I use NASM) but it's short (surprisingly short) so it'll be easy to convert.
22:23:31 <alise> cpressey: Immediate suggestion:
22:23:33 <zzo38> The A20 line code is part of the codes for unreal mode as well.
22:23:48 <cpressey> Oh gosh, I remember that phrase ... "A20"
22:23:49 <alise> cpressey: Ernestine is like global variables. Make every process have its own ernestine. Now you have local variables.
22:23:55 <alise> e.g. installing its own mock drivers or whatevers... I dunno.
22:24:01 <alise> Basically, drop globals, make it all local.
22:24:07 <alise> cpressey: This lets you also give some processes restricted Ernestines.
22:24:15 <alise> cpressey: i.e. block access to certain devices
22:24:48 <cpressey> I mean, thanks for the suggestion, and yes you could do things like that, but, no.
22:25:07 <zzo38> cpressey: You might have to change all numbers to decimal, I don't know how NASM works. 888ASM works exclusively in hex.
22:25:47 <zzo38> 888ASM also works exclusively in uppercase.
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22:28:30 <zzo38> The MBR code is also public domain, feel free to use it in any of your own operating systems or for whatever other purpose you want to use it for.
22:28:40 <cpressey> alise: To start with, Ernestine is a lot more than global variables. If you want a local variable, you don't need Ernestine, you just write a device that stores things and start it, as a process. You know its device ID, you can send it messages etc., and if you don't tell anyone else the ID, only you can access it, thus local.
22:29:02 <cpressey> But you don't even need to go that far. Processes can store their own state, that is, local variables.
22:29:17 <alise> cpressey: Of course.
22:29:21 <alise> cpressey: But let me put it more convincingly.
22:29:33 <alise> I want to start a process Foo. But I don't want Foo to be able to access the confabulator.
22:29:41 <alise> I pass it a restricted ernestine that does not have knowledge of the confabulator.
22:29:52 <alise> Of course, you can only pass on altered versions of your own ernestine.
22:29:55 <zzo38> Or put a fake confabulator?
22:29:57 <cpressey> Or just tell Ernestine not to let foo know about the confabulator.
22:30:07 <cpressey> Ernestine is answering queries anyway.
22:31:21 <alise> cpressey: So Ernestine is the kernel. Okay.
22:31:25 <cpressey> btw, should I explain where that name comes from, or is it part of your cultural basis?
22:31:54 <zzo38> Putting your own Ernestine is a good idea though in one way, hook the fake Ernestine to the program, that passes everything other than the confabulator to the Ernestine that is real to you.
22:32:02 <alise> cpressey: Depends what you're referring to.
22:32:09 <zzo38> (I have a similar idea for Linux)
22:32:27 <alise> cpressey: You could also have a process's personal Ernestine, say, refer all its requests to you so you handle them.,
22:32:35 <cpressey> alise: Do you know why I called it Ernestine?
22:32:47 <alise> Sure, you COULD do all this by registering it with Ernestine, but then it'd just be a hacked-up implementation of local Ernestines.
22:32:52 <alise> cpressey: I don't know. Probably not.
22:33:37 <cpressey> alise: It's not hacked-up at all. It's intentionally centralized. How can I convince you this is a good idea? I probably can't.
22:34:22 <cpressey> alise: It's the name of a switchboard operator character made famous by Lily Tomlin.
22:34:35 <alise> Give me a good reason to like it in your fake-personal-Ernestine version.
22:35:07 <cpressey> alise: You'll insist on seeing it as "fake-personal".
22:36:00 <zzo38> A similar idea to a few of these things, not quite same as Linux or Ernestine (but it could be used in UNIX type systems maybe even Linux), is have a special file descriptor for accessing other things, and allow the program to hold it as a device with I/O control and so on.
22:36:13 <zzo38> But it won't work with current systems, it will only work when writing a new one
22:36:14 <alise> cpressey: Not necessarily.
22:41:01 <alise> "Its more formal name is digital tenovaginitis stenosans, which is ancient Latin for "electronic hand inflamed vagina without writing", which I believe is why most people prefer to call it Trigger Finger.
22:41:01 <alise> I have it, you know. Trigger Finger, I mean, not an inflamed vagina." --Steve Yegge
22:43:27 <cpressey> Interesting that he strongly believes you should make developer hiring decisions based on typing speed, then.
22:45:14 <pikhq> cpressey: Well, I know I wouldn't hire a developer that couldn't type at a reasonable pace.
22:45:44 <pikhq> Who the hell wants code written by some guy who can't be assed to figure out how to touch-type?
22:46:18 <alise> Steve Yegge's a really good writer, actually.
22:46:42 <alise> Proof: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddv7939q_20gw8h9pcx
22:46:47 <alise> An excellent short sci-fi story.
22:48:44 <cpressey> pikhq: Then I guess I wouldn't be working for you. I can't touch type.
22:49:36 <alise> cpressey: You...can't...
22:49:40 <alise> cpressey: I'm sorry, what?
22:49:44 <alise> You hunt and peck?
22:50:14 <pikhq> cpressey: You... Can't... Touch type?
22:50:21 <cpressey> alise: No, I can do it without looking at the keyboard.
22:50:30 <alise> That's touch typing.
22:50:33 <cpressey> If that's what you mean by "touch type", then I can do it.
22:50:33 <pikhq> That's touch typing.
22:50:42 <alise> Okay, some people define it as "Blah you have to use the home row and never move off and blah" but they're retards.
22:50:52 <alise> Moving your hands about the keyboard is by far the superior option in both comfort and speed.
22:51:13 <pikhq> alise: Any quick typist is at least going to be moving off the home row for speed's sake.
22:51:26 <pikhq> My hands, for instance, only vaguely hover over the keyboard.
22:51:35 <alise> pikhq: Not the purists who use learn-to-type programs.
22:51:38 <pikhq> They only reach down for the home row when I'm not actively typing.
22:51:48 <alise> Especially the Dvorak advocates tend to be home row nazis.
22:51:55 <cpressey> I never understood the whole "home row" thing, and I barely use my left hand.
22:51:56 <pikhq> Yes, really. The fingers just sorta float and come down to hit keys from time to time.
22:51:58 <alise> I probably type faster than them. :)
22:52:07 <pikhq> Well. It does kinda float *over the home row*.
22:52:11 <cpressey> Mainly my left forefinger. The others on my left hand do jack.
22:52:14 <alise> cpressey: The home row is supposed to contain the most common letters, therefore NEVER MOVE OFF IT EVER. Of course, it doesn't, and even if it did that would be bad advice.
22:52:27 <pikhq> cpressey: You may wish to learn to do two-handed typing.
22:52:29 <alise> pikhq: I rest my fingers on keys obviously.
22:52:32 <pikhq> It *does* make typing faster.
22:52:53 <alise> Oh, and my hands contort arbitrarily to use the modifiers
22:53:03 <alise> I dislike shortcuts with more than one modifier intensely.
22:53:15 <pikhq> I'm just now noticing that when I actually start typing that I actually pick my hands off of the keyboards so that my fingers can move more freely.
22:53:29 <pikhq> This has got to be really weird looking to people who advocate "proper technique".
22:53:41 <alise> My typing style is interesting in that it's the closest thing you'll find to a /native typist/.
22:53:42 <alise> Not fluent; native.
22:54:03 <pikhq> cpressey: I don't know.
22:54:03 <alise> I got a computer when I was three, typed a little bit until about two years after when I started typing more, and have been typing ever since, more and more over the years.
22:54:08 <cpressey> I mean there's many thing I may wish.
22:54:17 <alise> This is extremely similar to language development, except starting at three instead of zero.
22:54:20 <pikhq> cpressey: Oh, you mean "why type with two hands"?
22:54:23 <alise> And I have had no training or anything.
22:54:29 <alise> I have learned to type purely from exposure.
22:54:33 <alise> i.e., native typist.
22:54:35 <pikhq> Believe me, it's faster.
22:54:48 <alise> Therefore CHARLES DARWIN HIMSELF supports my typing style.
22:54:51 <pikhq> Also more comfortable.
22:55:28 <cpressey> pikhq: I have never found typing to be the limiting constraint on anything I wanted to do with a computer.
22:55:29 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FingerHandPosUSA.gif This... looks like bullshit to me, though.
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22:55:52 <pikhq> cpressey: How fast do you type, pray tell?
22:56:06 <cpressey> pikhq: I have no idea. Not *too* slowly, surely.
22:56:13 <pikhq> Also: man, the pinkies are really overworked.
22:56:24 <alise> pikhq: Actually I just realised this second.
22:56:38 <alise> pikhq: The timespans of my learning to type /totally match/ language development times.
22:56:46 <alise> Coincidence? Maybe ...
22:57:04 <augur> pikhq: why does it look like bullshit?
22:57:05 <cpressey> alise: Explains why you can handle an iPhone and have it not really show.
22:57:22 <pikhq> augur: My hands do not move that way at all.
22:57:30 <alise> cpressey: Hey, good point.
22:57:35 <alise> Damn, that's cool. xD
22:57:45 <augur> pikhq: true, but thats a normative map, not an actual one
22:57:50 <pikhq> I'm not sure how they are actually moving, but it's pretty not-matching-proper-technique.
22:57:59 <alise> augur: Explain my adoption of typing as a natural language.
22:58:16 <augur> alise: what do you mean your adoption of typing as a natural language?
22:58:22 <pikhq> augur: Yeah, but people try enforcing the norm for some reason.
22:58:33 <augur> pikhq: yeah, well, people are stupid
22:58:49 <pikhq> And the QWERTY keyboard is poorly designed.
22:58:56 <pikhq> Why oh why must my pinkies move so much?
22:59:06 <pikhq> Couldn't we make a keyboard layout where they do nothing at all?
22:59:30 <alise> augur: I started typing minimally at age 3; but only really two to three years after that. My "vocabulary" of typing moves, speed and lack of errors has increased steadily since then, and is now coming to a plateau. I can use odd keyboards like the iPhone at very high speeds for those devices with quite few errors. My typing style is quite erratic and unique; I doubt many others have learned to type "naturally" without any guidance.
22:59:48 <alise> augur: All this seems to match up with regular language development via exposure, even the timing, taking age 3 as "age 0".
23:00:41 <augur> alise: i learned to type without guidance! :D
23:00:57 <augur> but age 3 is already quite late for language uptake
23:01:02 <alise> augur: but at such an early age? in such an erratic way? with such perfect timing (2-3 years) of language development?
23:01:07 <alise> treat age 3 as age 0
23:01:17 <alise> two years after i started typing, before i didn't do much at all
23:01:21 * pikhq couldn't speak at all until age 4. Whaddya think of that, augur?
23:01:27 <augur> as for whether or not its remotely like natural language, we'd need a better study. its hard to know.
23:01:30 <alise> pikhq: He thinks you're autistic, which is logical.
23:01:30 <augur> pikhq: i think nothing of it!
23:01:33 <cpressey> pikhq: QWERTY is designed well. Its design goal was to slow down typists, because the earliest typewriters would jam if they typed too fast.
23:01:44 <alise> cpressey: we know.
23:01:45 <pikhq> augur: What's this about vaginas?
23:01:52 <pikhq> cpressey: That's piss-poor design.
23:01:54 <augur> pikhq: some boys have them
23:02:09 <alise> pikhq: Some evidence against my having autism: I had a large vocabulary at age 2.
23:02:21 <pikhq> augur: X-Ray Delta.
23:02:29 <pikhq> alise: Hooray, lack of developmental delays.
23:02:46 <cpressey> pikhq: It met its design goal, did it not?
23:02:50 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but you get better logical reasoning skills and less emotional crap.
23:02:57 <pikhq> cpressey: It's a stupid design goal.
23:03:11 <cpressey> pikhq: That's different from a poor design.
23:03:32 <pikhq> cpressey: Having a stupid design goal makes for a poor design regardless of how well your goal was met.
23:07:24 <cpressey> pikhq: Yes, besides being a slow typist, did I also mention I am a terrible engineer?
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23:11:29 <pikhq> cpressey: Good typing makes up for poor engineering donchano.
23:12:04 <cpressey> pikhq: In a nutshell, you have explained modern education.
23:15:27 <cpressey> alise: Our disagreement about Ernestine is largely unfounded. Whether a device "has its own Ernestine", or whether there is but one Ernestine and it is customizing its responses based on what device is talking to it, is inconsequential from the point of view of the device.
23:21:25 <cpressey> s/is talking to/it is talking to/
23:21:27 <myndzi> cpressey> pikhq: QWERTY is designed well. Its design goal was to slow down typists, because the earliest typewriters would jam if they typed too fast. <- common misconception
23:21:47 <cpressey> myndzi: Aren't you a bot? Or is that a common misconception too?
23:21:50 <myndzi> it was actually designed to avoid consecutive keystrokes that would trigger levers next to each other
23:22:09 <myndzi> maybe i am just a very skilled chatbot!
23:22:11 <cpressey> myndzi: And what would happen if you triggered levers next to each other?
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23:22:18 <zzo38> cpressey: My idea was there is a proxy between the Ernestine and the programs, so additional proxies can be added so whenever any program accesses 0 there can be a proxy if there is one it will pass to that one and then proxy more
23:22:41 <myndzi> the difference is it wasn't made to "slow you down" to prevent jams, it was made to make jams less probable
23:23:49 <cpressey> myndzi: No design for a keyboard can change the probability of me having to type "ly".
23:24:32 <zzo38> I have idea about how 'patamagic can work in D&D: 'Patamagic feats can be taken any time you can take metamagic feats. 'Patamagic feats have a spell slot level which they take up. Prepared casters must spontaneously apply 'patamagic to the metamagic of a prepared spell (and select a slot of the 'patamagic's level or higher to lose at that time). Spontaneous casters must prepare 'patamagic to certain metamagic feats (and lose the slots at the be
23:25:16 <cpressey> zzo38: A proxy is one completely valid way of looking at it, but the important thing is that Ernestine is in control of the proxy, not the device.
23:25:17 <myndzi> cpressey: what qwerty does is make the physical locations of "ly" correspond to typewriter arms that aren't next to each othe
23:25:26 <myndzi> probability of jams != probability of typing two characters
23:25:44 <myndzi> it's the probability of typing two characters that are adjascent arms
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23:26:44 <cpressey> myndzi: But why not just change the letters that are imprinted on each arm?
23:27:20 <myndzi> because the position of the keys on the typewriter directly corresponded to the arms
23:27:32 <myndzi> unless you want to press the key labeled "F" and have it trigger the arm labeled "Q"
23:27:35 <myndzi> and i'm not sure why you would want to do that
23:27:46 <myndzi> it was a mechanical device, after all
23:27:51 <myndzi> the key presses directly moved the arms
23:28:28 <cpressey> myndzi: Indeed, I think I see what you're saying. I will explain it in a more refined fashion, next time it comes up.
23:28:30 <zzo38> Do you understand this idea of 'patamagic?
23:29:00 <myndzi> i just find it interesting that the most common argument when people talk about dvorak and qwerty is speed
23:29:01 <zzo38> 'Patapsionics can be similar
23:29:22 <myndzi> and the way it is presented is usually inaccurate, on both sides
23:30:02 <cpressey> myndzi: It was designed to minimize the occurrence of jams, at any rate, and that is, on a larger scale, partly about speed (because it takes you time to unjam the thing...)
23:30:14 <myndzi> you've got me there ;)
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23:30:31 <cpressey> Not just speed because I imagine it would also damage the damn thing and reduce its lifespan :)
23:30:42 <myndzi> oh, now it looks messed up, booo
23:30:51 <myndzi> silly random fonts being used for font linking
23:30:56 <cpressey> I don't have some of those characters :/
23:31:08 <myndzi> it's a smiley with a tophat monocle and cane ;D
23:31:25 <myndzi> i saw someone do the smiley so i had to add a body for him too :P
23:31:34 <myndzi> it doesn't play nice with the others though
23:33:38 <benuphoenix> Is +[] the shortest brainfuck infinite loop?
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23:35:31 <pikhq> benuphoenix: Quite simple. :)
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23:41:44 <zzo38> Still nobody answered my questions about Enhanced CWEB before. Do you have any suggestions having to do with the metamacro processor? Would you use Enhanced CWEB for anything?
23:42:09 <alise> I don't seem to be the literate programming kind of guy.
23:42:18 <alise> I guess I think better in code after all.
23:42:22 <zzo38> alise: Enhanced CWEB does other things as well.
23:42:36 <alise> Anything other than macros?
23:42:42 <cpressey> zzo38: needs a 'patamacro processor ;)
23:42:59 <zzo38> You are not required to provide as much documentation as CWEB itself does, but you can.
23:43:49 <zzo38> It does do some things other than macros. You can also write codes in different orders, make printouts (whether or not it has much extra documentation), and a few more things. The metamacros feature is powerful for some things, too.
23:43:58 <cpressey> My literate programming experience begins and ends with Literate Haskell.
23:44:01 <zzo38> In addition, once I add the makefile mode it will be more useful.
23:45:20 <zzo38> One of its features is the change-file feature.
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23:53:18 <alise> cpressey: So, Robin is now less vapourwarish than aliseOS.
23:53:26 <alise> It has proper names for things and a rudimentary plan.
23:53:29 <alise> It seems I'd better catch up.
23:53:40 <alise> Of course, aliseOS is much more... everythingy.
23:54:54 <alise> I'm sad Google have acquired ITA.
23:55:05 <alise> An innovative, Lisp-using company of smart people. Now it'll be C++.
23:55:49 <alise> Not Go. Go is interesting and quite well-designed, but not tested extensively -- Google won't use it.
23:56:00 <alise> Google give lip service to it but really it's From The People Who Brought You Plan 9.
23:56:04 <alise> 20% time project. etc.
23:56:42 <alise> cpressey: Not a high opinion of Go?
23:56:53 <alise> I admit it's flawed. But it's interesting, nonetheless.
23:57:24 <cpressey> alise: I'm not personally sure what to make of it yet, but spot on about how Google looks at it.
23:57:48 <alise> The compiler, if nothing else, is a beautiful piece of Ken Thompson engineering.
00:01:34 <alise> cpressey: So... can I blab about aliseOS to you, just to bounce ideas off and to try and crystalise the ideas in my head?
00:01:48 <cpressey> alise: Robin is still pretty darn vapourwareish, though -- especially if you take into consideration the amount of time I have available to spend on it.
00:03:26 <alise> cpressey: So. I'm tired of language/OS distinctions.
00:03:41 <alise> Globalised, decentralised, encrypted net of objects.
00:03:50 <alise> Disk caches this; specifically the parts you care about, mostly your stuff and other people's stuff you use.
00:04:08 <alise> Main idea is this: Everything is a "process"/"object"/"agent" -- same thing.
00:04:29 <alise> They are flat values in stasis with procedures; they are living objects responding to messages like Erlang servers. They do both jobs.
00:05:43 <alise> Hardware is an object.
00:05:59 <alise> The string "2" is an object.
00:06:08 <alise> The rich text document containing the default-formatted "2" is an object.
00:06:15 <alise> What in Unix would be a running process, is an object.
00:06:21 <alise> Services are objects.
00:06:31 <alise> Every object has its namespace -- with local and "global" variables.
00:06:40 <alise> Security is simple: Objects cannot access other objects that would let them do naughty things.
00:07:06 <alise> All objects are scheduled: this means that even an essay you wrote ten years ago is being "scheduled", though of course since it's not being called upon to do anything it will never actually be scheduled.
00:07:17 <alise> cpressey: Any questions?
00:07:54 <cpressey> What distinguishes between an object which is "flat" and one which is "living"? Under what conditions (if any) can an object transition from one to the other?
00:08:10 <cpressey> That, to me, is one of the harder bits
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00:08:18 <alise> Nothing. Nothing at all.
00:08:21 <alise> They are the same.
00:08:33 <alise> An object gets scheduled to run some code if some other object has called upon it; sent it a message.
00:08:35 <cpressey> Just the "scheduled" part, then? OK.
00:08:51 <alise> This way we get the "synchronous" OOP stuff blended with the "asynchronous" process stuff.
00:09:10 <alise> Because even if one method in an object -- one processing of a message -- is waiting for another object, the rest of its responders still run.
00:11:31 <cpressey> alise: OK, another question. Do you still hate files? :)
00:11:54 <cpressey> alise: Not sure. I hate parts of them, I think.
00:12:01 <alise> I still do. Mostly.
00:13:21 <cpressey> I think I like that your objects are (and I'm using this quite loosely) "Platonic" in the sense that they don't really exist anywhere, they're just cached (on disks and/or ram) and could be cached multiple places.
00:13:41 <cpressey> I imagine you deal with discrepancy with hashes of some kind...
00:13:48 <alise> Yes. Encryption ensures that nobody can peek at your process, etc.
00:13:56 <alise> I'm fuzzy on the global decentralised object net atm.
00:14:01 <alise> It's hard, that bit.
00:16:11 <cpressey> I don't think I can get rid of key->value storage, conceptually, in my head, and a filesystem is basically such a thing where keys look like "/home/cpressey/foo.txt" and values look like octet-strings. But it should be broken down to that point, and rebuilt. There is too much baggage...
00:16:39 <alise> cpressey: key->value storage: also known as "variables"
00:17:02 <alise> this is why global variables suck; everything should be relative, this provides security by not providing certain components to an object when you initialise it
00:17:20 <alise> Or "object slots". etc.
00:18:36 <cpressey> What provides security, to me, is some notion of sandboxing. But that could take many forms, only one of which is lying to your process about what is "actually global".
00:18:53 <alise> http://xach.livejournal.com/257931.html ;; Naggum's library for sale
00:19:15 <alise> cpressey: sandboxing -- putting things in a place where they can't access bits of the outer system that they could harm
00:19:28 <alise> how can we achieve this? If there are no global variables and contexts are always passed in,
00:19:37 <alise> then we can simply give it a context with only those components we want it to be able to use
00:20:11 <cpressey> In a sense, yes. I'm looking at it from a different angle.
00:20:28 <alise> My design strategy is "ruthlessly combine everything".
00:20:48 <cpressey> If everything communicates via messages and we, like the State Police, open up and perhaps alter everyone's mail...
00:22:41 <alise> I guess I'm more a fan of libertarian computing. :-)
00:24:14 <cpressey> Erm, well the political analogy is a bad one.
00:26:05 <cpressey> But, uh. Insofar as it works, I *do* want something like totalitarian control over what processes on my hardware can and can't do.
00:26:29 <alise> Of course, this is all very well: the hard part is providing a UI.
00:26:34 <alise> How, exactly, do you do permissions seamlessly?
00:26:37 <alise> How do you interact with an object?
00:26:38 <cpressey> I haven't really thought about networked or distributed issues at all.
00:27:23 <cpressey> So far, I have only a REPL, which exposes a language, which can send messages. That's the very start.
00:27:45 <cpressey> Eventually, you need, or at least really want, something much better.
00:28:00 <cpressey> I haven't got to that point in thinking either.
00:28:06 <cpressey> Well, no. I did, once, a long time ago.
00:28:15 <cpressey> But I was younger and stupider then.
00:29:24 <cpressey> Everything was a "unit" and could contain subunits, and you could browse through the hierarchy with a Finder-like UI, opening each up in turn... but this is very different.
00:29:53 <cpressey> My current thoughts are not so hierarchical.
00:30:56 <alise> I think aliseOS is impossible. But given enough time you can approximate it to any desired accuracy... it's a computable real.
00:31:23 <cpressey> Sure, to some degree, you can describe a lot of idealistic projects like that. The reality will never quite match the vision.
00:32:08 <cpressey> Smalltalk, for all its crazy syntax that I don't like, is a pretty good approximation of what's in my head, as were the Lisp machines.
00:32:26 <alise> Smalltalk's syntax isn't that esoteric.
00:32:38 <alise> The Lisp machines had proper filesystems. Unfortunately.
00:32:43 <cpressey> It's mainly that I don't like it :/
00:33:07 <alise> You know, I never had you penned as the pipe-dream visionary type :P
00:33:18 <cpressey> It's about synergy, to some degree... some aspects they got, others, they didn't.
00:33:30 <cpressey> alise: I'm not, really. I'm the hard-to-enterain type.
00:33:37 <cpressey> So I come up with things to entertain myself.
00:33:53 <cpressey> *entertain, 2 lines back, of course.
00:34:46 <cpressey> Designing "impossible" languages manages to entertain me where other things fall short. Designing "perfect" operating systems, sometimes entertains me too.
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00:35:45 <cpressey> Moreso since you started talking about aliseOS, and since I seem to be cooling off on the esolang design front somewhat.
00:36:01 <alise> You can't give up on esolangs now!
00:36:09 <alise> You're, like, a machine. Of esolangity.
00:36:18 <cpressey> But it's probably not driven by the same things that motivate you.
00:36:41 <cpressey> They just take a long time to ripen now :)
00:36:45 <alise> Oh, no mistake, I do this for fun too. I'd love to throw out all computers and just get aliseEverything ones, but I know that will never happen.
00:37:03 <alise> And really, I'm fine spending tons of time on something that nobody will ever really use, as long as I learn something and achieve something interesting.
00:37:09 <alise> That's esolangs really, isn't it?
00:37:25 <alise> cpressey: You stopped making silly ones and started delving into heavy CS, that's why :-)
00:37:37 <alise> Well, I guess some mathematics recently what with Burro.
00:37:49 <cpressey> Agreed, a bit heavier on that front now.
00:39:17 <cpressey> Almost went down the academic path, but not being accepted into grad school anywhere kind of put the brakes on that.
00:39:19 <alise> zzo38 and Gerson Kerz are definitely the masters of the pointless language.
00:39:45 <cpressey> Shoot, I had forgotten about Gerson. Yes. Oh my.
00:40:21 <alise> Do you regret remembering him? XD
00:40:36 <cpressey> No, not at all. I mean, ... UNBABTIZED!
00:41:58 <cpressey> If programming languages were painting, Gerson and zzo38 would be master surrealists.
00:42:35 <alise> What would oklopol be?
00:43:02 <cpressey> What has oklopol done? I haven't seem him around much lately, he mainly seems to know far more about mathematics than me.
00:43:41 <cheater99> this thunderstorm is extremely loud
00:43:54 <cheater99> and... doesn't sound like a thunderstorm at all
00:44:42 <cheater99> can this be the sound of the langoliers?
00:45:16 <alise> cpressey: he's so far in academia that his language releases are very few
00:45:27 <alise> cpressey: but they are always works of purist art
00:45:42 <alise> out of that coding section, everything after thue is his languages
00:45:48 <alise> oh it's missing the latest one there
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00:46:24 <alise> which isn't in the language list...
00:47:31 <alise> cpressey: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Toi
00:47:34 <alise> is his most recent lang
00:48:18 <AnMaster> I assume you know about clang's wonderfully helpful diagnostics?
00:48:26 <AnMaster> alib/lex.c:380:1: warning: control may reach end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type]
00:48:37 <AnMaster> like, which path. Would have been way more helpful
00:53:47 <cpressey> alise: i dunno... I think oklopol is possibly one of the esolangers who, if esolangs are art (which they are), is inventing his own movement ;)
00:54:18 <alise> i think oklopol like
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01:19:21 <alise> pikhq: Tiny Core Linux, SliTaz, Puppy Linux 4. Which should I try next?
01:21:20 <cheater99> this thunder was so hard the window vibrated
01:23:47 <pikhq> alise: Lorem Ipsix.
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01:27:48 <cheater99> alise: do you watch the sara silverman show?
01:28:45 <Sgeo> On the plus side, I did not need to reinstall Windows
01:29:03 <Sgeo> On the minus side, my a/v may be disabled, and I may have undone some system updates
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01:29:34 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98Np9hNSIWo
01:31:30 <cheater99> omfg so good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRIfGKrY0vE&feature=related
01:34:17 <alise> pikhq: so not helpful :P
01:38:12 <Sgeo> Hm, I may end up installing VS2010
01:42:36 <alise> pikhq: TINY CORE SLITAZ OR PUPPY 4 YOU MUST DECIDE OR PAIN WILL BE UNLEASHED
01:42:39 <alise> TERRIBLE TERRIBLE PAIN
01:46:31 * Sgeo blinks a few times
01:46:38 <Sgeo> Help and Support is completely broken for me
01:47:43 <zzo38> Pick one by the dice if nobody else knows
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01:56:50 <Sgeo> alise, it means I can't open Remote Assistance invitations
01:57:17 <Sgeo> All these random things broken, I should do a system restore
01:57:28 <zzo38> Now I can have two versions of ARGOPT, standard-edition and web-edition. Web-edition also includes formatting man pages and a few other additional features over standard-edition.
01:57:30 <Gregor> Everyone remember "Check Out My Sweet Shirt, And Then Talk To Me Because I'm Awesome Day", and keep it holy.
01:57:56 <zzo38> Gregor: What kind of day is that?
01:58:04 <Sgeo> VS2008 is broken, and that _is_ a loss to me
01:58:15 <zzo38> And also make CSPIDER (the third program after CTANGLE and CWEAVE)
02:03:33 <olsner> Sgeo: you should reinstall
02:03:39 <Sgeo> olsner, no thanks
02:04:02 <Sgeo> I might install 2010\
02:04:12 <olsner> everything, probably switch OS too while you're at it
02:04:35 <Sgeo> I have no time this month
02:05:41 <olsner> bah, that means nothing :P you should still do what you should do
02:07:57 <cheater99> oh it's that literal programming stuff
02:12:51 <cheater99> i wonder if you can use ctangle with the apple api
02:16:19 <Sgeo> How do I get Windows File Protection to SHUT THE FUCK UP about inserting a "CD2"?
02:19:01 <alise> stop using windows?
02:19:57 <zzo38> cheater99: Maybe you can use CWEB with the Apple API, I don't know, because I don't know about the Apple API.
02:20:22 <cheater99> they have this shit new thing about not using code generation tools.
02:20:23 <zzo38> Perhaps Enhanced CWEB might be able to be used even if standard CWEB isn't, because Enhanced CWEB has some extra features
02:20:25 <Sgeo> Dear Android: Please stop being prone to random freezes
02:20:48 <cheater99> no surprise it doesn't work that well
02:21:05 <zzo38> Does "code generation tools" include CHAOSPP and ORDERPP?
02:22:04 <zzo38> cheater99: What thing? Are you refering to the iPhone?
02:22:26 <zzo38> CWEB won't work with Objective C anyways, as far as I know
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02:24:43 <zzo38> And what about code-generation tools do they not want?
02:25:32 <zzo38> My idea, is, don't use official development for iPhone (and App Store). If you need to write software for iPhone at all, you can jailbreak it. But better, don't use iPhone at all.
02:26:17 <zzo38> Use Android or whatever else
02:26:31 <zzo38> And then you don't have to worry about all the confusing Apple Developer programs and stuff
02:27:22 <zzo38> cheater99: If you use C it will work.
02:27:41 <alise> you can't use c for iphone afaik
02:27:45 <zzo38> If you are not allowed to use it for code generation, you can still have a separpate program that converts it to CWEB program to make a printout, if you want a printout for it.
02:27:48 <alise> unless you call the objc intrinsics yourself
02:28:16 <olsner> alise: sure you can write C, you just need to wrap it in objc
02:28:17 <zzo38> Although you will not be able to use a lot of the CWEB features if you do it this way
02:28:38 <alise> olsner: missing context
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02:36:56 <alise> Arcane Sentiment needs more posts.
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02:55:43 <alise> hard work and suffering
02:57:03 <cheater99> i usually spend like 30 minutes a day washing it
03:00:05 <alise> combing it is kinda the main thing :P I might just be lucky
03:00:10 <alise> you probably just have crappy hair ha ha
03:02:40 <cheater99> well i can get it neat with some conditioner etc
03:02:55 <cheater99> by the end of the day it's like hay
03:04:31 <alise> so comb it all the time
03:06:03 <cheater99> lots of hairs shorter than the rest
03:14:37 <alise> no, cpressey doesn't.
03:23:12 <cheater99> alise: do you straighten your hair?
03:23:22 <alise> it stays straight by itself.
03:25:26 <alise> entering creepy territory
03:27:10 <cheater99> you totally shouldn't be ashamed of your hair alise.
03:35:28 <alise> cheater99: very dark brown, fwiw (basically black if you're retarded)
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04:10:42 * pikhq can has an awesomely typeset copy of The Time Machine.
04:14:46 <pikhq> 2010. Typeset by pikhq. Not printed as of yet.
04:16:07 <pikhq> Still. Proper typesetting is glee.
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04:26:49 <Sgeo> Price people are suggesting on some freelance site for something to convert EXIT to MapInfo and ESRI: $1500
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04:40:31 <cheater99> isn't that like a huge fucking amount of work?
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04:50:25 <leBMD> Hey guys, I'm working on my own language, and I was wondering if you could offer some feedback.
04:51:15 <leBMD> ok, here are my specifications: http://txtb.in/fQw
04:53:34 * oerjan detects an absence of flow control
04:53:59 <oerjan> also, does the 1 command take the value as a following argument after the 0?
04:54:33 <leBMD> the one command just adds a 1 to the stack.
04:55:40 <Sgeo> cheater99, how?
04:55:46 <leBMD> as for flow control, I never really thought to add loops
04:55:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm too oblivious to the formats?
04:55:56 <leBMD> maybe I should do that..
04:56:04 <cheater99> well if you think you'll make it in 3 days
04:56:20 <oerjan> leBMD: well currently it's basically little more than a four-functional calculator.
04:56:31 <leBMD> what would you reccomend for flow control?
04:56:53 <leBMD> maybe I could have commands of 0's as well!
04:57:06 <leBMD> revision-time is a go-go.
05:01:31 <leBMD> http://txtb.in/fQx
05:01:45 <leBMD> I've edited it a good bit, and now it has loop commands
05:04:22 <oerjan> i detect that there is no way to go back to _before_ the previous loop tag.
05:05:24 <oerjan> also it looks difficult to get to elements deep in the stack without deleting information
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05:05:49 <leBMD> 00000 - like 000, but takes the stack value and goes that many tags backward.
05:06:21 <leBMD> I'm basing this a lot on the way Piet and Befunge handle the stack.
05:08:20 <zzo38> Once I told someone that if I rewrite MegaZeux using Enhanced CWEB, I would remove online documentation, in favor of printed documentation. Someone thought that means Enhanced CWEB can't do online documentation and therefore it is worthless.
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05:11:04 <oerjan> there's also the underload way, although that requires essentially putting code on the stack. in any case your stack commands are not enough to manipulate data enough for arbitrary programming, i think
05:11:26 <oerjan> oh and the glass way, which is just crazy :D
05:14:34 <leBMD> I dunno about "not enough for arbitrary programming." I mean, Befunge -93 and Piet as it is both run on a very similar system of memory management. I could add file i/o, I've just been too lazy to think of creative ways to do that.
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05:16:05 <oerjan> leBMD: i am not saying befunge's stack isn't powerful, i am saying you don't have enough of befunge's commands to get that full power
05:16:23 <leBMD> What would you reccomned adding?
05:16:49 <oerjan> a swap command is obvious, and for full power you'd want a deep rotation command
05:17:36 <oerjan> mind you i don't quite remember how much befunge-93 has, does it have deep rotation?
05:18:09 <oerjan> befunge's way is essentially the forth way, i think
05:19:09 <leBMD> befunge-93's way of using the stack was "hey, son, you should be happy with access to only the top two stack values at any given time *pimpslap*"
05:19:14 <oerjan> while a drop command would be convenient, you already _do_ have enough to simulate it
05:19:49 <oerjan> in that case i would think befunge-93 depended on having put and get to the memory as well
05:20:44 <oerjan> although however, two values _is_ enough to prove turing-completeness via a minsky machine, assuming bignums
05:21:07 <oerjan> in any case you still need swap to get to more than one value :)
05:22:19 <oerjan> underload also has only top two values manipulation _but_ the way it can incorporate values into code on the fly allows it to get around that. suitably awkwardly.
05:25:24 <ais523> oerjan: you can think of it as stack elements containing other stack elements
05:25:50 <oerjan> however some of those are code, anyhow
05:26:40 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(b)(c)a~a~*~S^~SS
05:27:39 <oerjan> that underload program gets to the (a) on the bottom first by wrapping (b) and (c) up into a program to put them back on the stack after we've handled (a)
05:28:22 <oerjan> of course the "program to put them back on the stack" looks like ((b)(c))
05:28:44 <leBMD> well, I gotta go get some sleep. Seeya!
05:28:50 <leBMD> thanks for the advice, btw. :)
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05:39:18 <ais523> oerjan: Joy's "dip" operator is implemented in underload as ~a*^
05:39:34 <ais523> it's the mechanism I normally use to access lower stack entries
05:40:02 <ais523> e.g. "swap second and third" is "[swap] dip" in Joy or (~)~a*^ in Underload
05:40:56 <ais523> basically, you're using two stacks, the data stack and the call stack
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05:46:55 <zzo38> Forth also uses (at least) two stacks
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05:53:05 <zzo38> I think some people impersonated me before too (but not on Freenode)
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11:43:45 <zzo38> I changed the string formatting a bit
11:44:07 <zzo38> You can watch it at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/cwebstringformat.png
11:44:44 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this new formatting?
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12:17:56 <zzo38> Go ask your mother.
12:23:58 <zzo38> Do not cook the radio while it is switched off.
12:25:44 <zzo38> Do not brag the control.
12:26:16 <zzo38> Don't squish spiders in the bathtub. Use a sink!
12:26:19 <zzo38> Don't touch spiders in a sink. Use a bathtub!
12:26:50 <zzo38> When my desk is clean and organized, I can't find anything.
12:27:35 <zzo38> True wisdom does not consist of beans.
12:28:54 <zzo38> Free will is caused by the Heizenberg Uncertainty Principle.
12:30:07 <zzo38> Nobody can or should be sane.
12:30:25 <zzo38> Hang yourself by the ropes.
12:33:22 <zzo38> Don't apply hairspray if there are cockroaches nearby.
12:34:00 <zzo38> Which ones are good and which ones are doubleplusungood?
12:36:22 <zzo38> Religion is not the opium of the people. Opium is.
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15:28:11 <alise> "Atheists Use Blow-Dryers to De-Baptize" -- ABC News
15:29:18 <alise> "Cocoa futures for July delivery jumped 1.5pc on the Liffe exchange to more than £2,588 this week"
15:29:30 <alise> someone just bought 241,000 tonnes of cocoa beans
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16:10:06 <alise> Whew, it is hot in here.
16:14:04 <fizzie> It has been absurdly hot in here for the week.
16:16:11 <alise> pikhq: Is there a way to boot Linux from inside Linux, having the new Linux replace the old Linux, but providing ... something to the inner Linux? OK, I'll be more precise.
16:16:33 <alise> Tiny Core Linux only supports Ethernet by default. ATM, I only have a WiFi connection. Can I boot Tiny Core Linux natively but somehow bootstrap it so that its eth0 is actually WiFi?
16:16:41 <alise> I imagine the answer is "no" and I should use a VM, but that's so dull.
16:17:30 <pikhq> alise: That's the kexec system call.
16:17:52 <alise> pikhq: But can it make everything else natively Tiny Core, and ONLY override eth0?
16:18:03 <alise> Just ... like, boot it, but fake one piece of hardware somehow.
16:18:29 <fizzie> I don't think kexec can fake anything; it just boots a new kernel, and the new kernel has the (unenviable) task of making any sense out of the hardware.
16:18:44 <pikhq> kexec is booting without going through the BIOS, really.
16:18:54 <alise> But I want to try TCL natively!
16:20:51 <oerjan> alise: heat wave here too. of course this is by norwegian standards, so you others probably wouldn't even notice :D
16:21:07 <fizzie> Perhaps you just should hack it to work with wifi.
16:21:34 <oerjan> (26 celsius was the forecast)
16:22:02 * oerjan doesn't actually have an outdoor thermometer
16:22:09 <fizzie> +30 °C here today, according to them forecasts.
16:22:13 <pikhq> oerjan: 26 celsius? That's... considered hot?
16:22:43 <pikhq> It's 35 currently. And this is not an unusual temperature.
16:23:11 <oerjan> well 30 is considered very hot. 35 i think may never actually have been measured in norway
16:23:20 <fizzie> +26 would be considered pretty warm in Finland too.
16:23:45 <pikhq> I wish it were only 26 here.
16:23:50 <fizzie> Also, just this week they measured the highest temperature in Finland since the 1930s; I think it was +34.2 or some-such.
16:24:36 <fizzie> "The highest summer temperatures in the Finnish interior are from 32°C to 35°C. Near the sea and in the islands, temperatures over 30°C are extremely rare; the highest temperature ever recorded in Helsinki is 31.6°C. The highest temperature ever recorded is from July 9, 1914, when 35°C was exceeded in several places (the maximum being 35.9°C in Turku)."
16:24:41 <fizzie> (From the local meteorological institute.)
16:26:10 <fizzie> Heh, the meteorological institute has their own, combined Twitter account. How 2.0 of them.
16:28:19 <pikhq> Darned Scandinavians, with your not-flesh-melting temperatures.
16:29:23 <alise> pikhq: it's like 23 here or sth
16:29:39 <alise> i'm totally designed for svalbard
16:29:46 <alise> pikhq: not without breeze
16:29:51 <alise> breeze is mandatory at all times
16:29:55 <oerjan> heh i guess britain has even less really hot weather, then
16:30:03 <alise> oerjan: oh we get 26 often enough
16:30:44 <oerjan> pikhq: on the flip side this means we generally don't have any air condition, so the outside temperature eventually creeps in if long enough
16:31:39 <alise> oerjan: is norway usually nice and cold
16:31:45 <alise> of course it is :D
16:31:51 <alise> ok does it normally have a breeze
16:31:56 <alise> if so see you in a minute brb plane
16:32:03 <oerjan> it's supposed to get down to 15-16 again tomorrow, last i checked
16:32:11 <oerjan> very unstable this summer
16:33:03 <oerjan> there's a bit of wind today, which helps
16:33:07 <fizzie> oerjan: Lunch-table-speculation has it that if you're looking for company, now is a good time to get air conditioning at home. One (female) colleague, for example, has spent last week sleeping at her "almost-boyfriend" mostly because of his air-conditioning thing.
16:34:03 <alise> fizzie: Yeah, I'm sure that's the reason.
16:34:17 <fizzie> That's what she said, anyway!
16:35:00 <alise> So what temperature is it in Helsinki at the moment?
16:36:36 <fizzie> At 18:20 local time (so ~15 minutes ago) it was 25.6 °C.
16:37:21 <fizzie> Tomorrow's daily high has been forecasted to be 29. Phew.
16:38:00 <alise> fizzie: Ouch. But you're bordered with Russia, how do you get warmer weather than Norway? :-)
16:38:21 * alise watches The IT Crowd, wonders why 8+ doesn't exist. ...Or does it?
16:38:31 <fizzie> Hey, it's 33°C in Moscow right now.
16:38:47 <Ilari> alise: Farther from ocean.
16:38:53 <alise> Street Countdown. Good idea.
16:39:51 <alise> Ilari: Shut up you. You and your... your LOGIC.
16:41:40 <Ilari> alise: That nearer to ocean climate tends to be moist, relatively warm winters and relatively cool summers and farther inland climate tends to be dry, relatively cold winters and relatively warm summers is covered in basic geography lessions. :-)
16:42:06 <alise> I was playing on the Russia-is-cold stereotype.
16:42:26 <pikhq> alise: Actually, it's the Siberia-is-mother-fucking-cold stereotype.
16:42:29 <pikhq> Which of course it is.
16:42:52 <pikhq> Russia's large. ;)
16:43:03 <oerjan> i think napoleon would disagree it's _just_ siberia. if he were alive, that is.
16:43:11 <alise> "Overnumerousness" is now a word.
16:43:20 <pikhq> oerjan: Winters, too.
16:43:34 <pikhq> They get cold winters.
16:50:16 <alise> And Freebase is usurped into Google.
16:50:21 <alise> I think Google are now officially evil.
16:50:33 <alise> They're basically buying everyone with anything to do with ... organising information.
16:54:42 <alise> ... /me tries to think of what to do first.
16:54:45 <alise> It's hard, organising this stuff!
16:55:24 <oerjan> well clearly you need to shave off all nonessentials
16:56:19 <alise> way ahead of you; the slogan is already "comes pre-shaven"
16:57:47 <alise> oerjan: "O KAY" sounds sarcastic :P
16:58:28 <oerjan> can't it be self-ironical?
17:00:46 <alise> on a moore and shultry taft'ernoone, agleisic Edwardson marted his fies.
17:01:27 <oerjan> i assume that is a quote from somewhere.
17:02:14 <alise> trattingly nobling his ardeous grats, he blopped his firnal harket firmly unto his vuletine.
17:03:54 <oerjan> ok just channeling vogons, then
17:03:58 <alise> "Oh, I am sick of the sorteous numblitudes; how I crope for nimely tokes," he ploted, markenly. He serfined the opacious roats, and dellired the blumptious cattafries.
17:05:08 <alise> On his tomely way, he gabunted, spotting a frolitous female, dressed in wodersome red; "good harpentime," he managed, before abuting to the ground.
17:06:06 <alise> "My dear, my dear, what rokenpokes you?" inquired the jonimilly lady, as she helped Edwardson to his feet. "My name is Marketrina; your company is tunastious."
17:06:46 <alise> "Why thank you, dear lady," replied Edwardson, now sarkly from his fall, "mine is Edwardson; a humble and furminstine name it is, but mine it is also."
17:08:15 <alise> "It's the most potaneous name I've heard all day," said Marketrina, "though it is also the first. May I consider your tressling lamenote, and gorminelly invite you to my sermibone home?"
17:08:58 <alise> Edwardson was ruvenised. "Yes, yes, of course, very dram of you, thank you good lady," he said.
17:09:26 <alise> oerjan: Have I finally gone completely insane?
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17:19:18 * alise implements infinitely-long binary numbers in hs
17:19:23 <alise> data Num = Zero Num | One Num
17:19:40 <alise> say pos = fix Zero, and neg = fix One
17:19:55 <alise> then Zero $ One $ One $ pos = 0b110
17:20:11 <alise> and Zero $ One $ One $ pos = 0b...1111111110
17:20:18 <alise> and Zero $ One $ One $ neg = 0b...1111111110
17:20:33 <alise> but it's just infinite-bit two's complement really
17:20:35 <alise> i.e. 2-adic integers
17:20:42 <alise> oerjan: i'm doing it for the purpose of lambda calculus though
17:20:48 <alise> I'm wondering how nice this representation will be
17:20:50 <alise> it's pure, certainly
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17:23:22 <alise> oerjan: say what's (x = Zero $ One $ x), p-adically?
17:23:28 <alise> i.e. ...0101010101010
17:28:01 <alise> oerjan: kinda confusing :-D
17:28:09 <alise> it's certainly not an integer though
17:28:43 -!- AnMaster has joined.
17:29:00 <alise> oerjan: oh it's some rational
17:29:00 <oerjan> indeed. -1/3, i think.
17:29:19 <alise> oerjan: so a 2-adic /integer/ is one reverse-ending in 0... or 1...
17:29:28 <alise> which in haskell is impossible to check, fun
17:29:49 <oerjan> 2*x + x + 1 = -1 => x = -2/3
17:29:50 <alise> oerjan: 2-adic integers are probably the easiest way to impl rationals though :D
17:29:59 <alise> since you just use binary addition/etc
17:30:56 <oerjan> no, you don't have division by 2, you need to allow finite number of digits after the point to get a field
17:31:18 <alise> yeah i forgot the 2-adics are fucked up.
17:31:26 <alise> still if you only use them for integers
17:31:51 <alise> i love the proof (from hakmem) that "algebra is 2's complement"
17:32:01 <alise> let A = ...111111_2
17:32:21 <alise> A + 1 = ...000000_2, therefore A = -1
17:32:28 <alise> a bit silly, but still
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17:34:23 <alise> oerjan: okay, now what's (reversed) 0101110010111011110001001101010111100110111101111... :D
17:34:38 <alise> ...1111011110110011110101011001000111101110100111010
17:34:45 <alise> i.e. 2-adic champernowne
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17:37:00 <oerjan> what the heck is that sequence
17:37:30 <alise> oerjan: champernowne in base n = naturals of base n concatenated after point
17:37:35 <alise> base 10 champernowne =
17:37:44 <alise> 0.0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ...
17:37:53 <alise> 0.01234567891011 ...
17:37:58 <alise> mine was that for base 2 when reversed
17:38:04 <alise> (since we should start/"end" with 0, 1, 10, etc)
17:38:23 <oerjan> i think you are missing 1, then
17:38:26 <Gregor> Looks like prgmr will have free space again soon.
17:38:33 <alise> it's actually 0.1234
17:38:41 <alise> Gregor: with ipv6?
17:39:01 <oerjan> in that case the first 0 should be a 1
17:39:02 <alise> oerjan: so yeah, what's ....001110110 in 2-adics, I wonder :-)
17:39:07 <alise> oerjan: no because we don't have points
17:39:11 <alise> so the 0 has to be somewhere
17:39:19 <Gregor> alise: They all have ipv6
17:39:26 <alise> Gregor: not the ones they switched to recently
17:39:39 <alise> Gregor: or at least you only got a static ipv5
17:39:47 <alise> # Native IPv6 support available upon request.
17:39:47 <alise> # Static IPv4 address included
17:39:51 <alise> it used to just be static ipv4
17:39:58 <alise> and before that IPV6 FOR EVERYONE HAVE A FUCKING PARTY
17:40:04 <Gregor> inet6 addr: 2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe59:ad41/64 Scope:Global
17:40:06 <oerjan> in any case i think rationals are always periodic, so not that. heck if i know if it's even possible to compute
17:40:19 <alise> Gregor: furthermore
17:40:20 <alise> IPv6 will at the moment only work for hosts at the svtix colocation and Fremont. By default you will only get one IPv6 address, which has to be manually configured. This manual only covers the configuration for Debian GNU/Linux, but setup for other distributions should be similar.
17:40:24 <alise> Gregor: you got it before this change
17:40:42 <alise> Gregor: The global prefix for one of the subnets is 2001:470:21:20::/64 and the other is 2001:470:21:31::/64. Your IPv6 address is the prefix + your IPv4 address.
17:40:49 <alise> Gregor: so your static ipv6 address is not "really".
17:40:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
17:41:53 <alise> Gregor: which plan are you on?
17:42:10 <alise> also, are the problems of *Ego* server-related or you suck at coding related?
17:42:25 <Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
17:42:30 <Gregor> The server's never gone wonky with them.
17:42:39 <alise> `addquote <Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
17:42:46 <alise> if HackEgo was working it would be a nice quote.
17:42:47 <HackEgo> 195|<Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
17:43:23 <alise> ... therefore i will now demise the kratological!
17:44:18 <alise> So ... who feels like hacking up 386BSD?
17:44:40 <alise> I'm sure Gregor thinks that writing a USB stack for 386BSD is a great idea.
17:47:23 <alise> pikhq: Um, http://www.386bsd.org/ is like the worst site ever and I can't find a link to the code.
17:47:31 <alise> It's funny to write web pages like they are code lol
17:47:41 <pikhq> That is revolting.
17:47:59 -!- atrapado has joined.
17:49:34 <alise> pikhq: seems like the code isn't available
17:50:25 <alise> It is getting harder and harder to track down a download source for 386BSD as it too was swept up in the great lawsuit of AT&T vs BSDI/CSRG although it was never named in the suit. Not to mention it was quickly superseded by the FreeBSD & NetBSD projects. It is very unstable in the 0.1 release, there is clearly some issues with it's "install" program with regards to allocating swap space, and in general with the OS's swapping routines. Also because of the o
17:50:25 <alise> verlap any attempt to install on a disk larger then 100MB results in a corrupted file system that will no longer boot after the eventual file corruption. It's quite sad, but if you search the news group at the time, there was all kinds of issues with the install process, and with it's stability.
17:50:31 <alise> You can find 386BSD on the mirror site http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/
17:50:50 <alise> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/
17:50:54 <alise> pikhq: wanna hack this up? :D
17:52:22 <alise> pikhq: http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/386BSD/ whatare these?
17:52:24 <alise> floppy disk images?
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17:56:26 <Gregor> 240640 is a strange size ...
17:57:13 <Gregor> Incidentally, if you can get it to read the disk using BIOS calls only, then you don't need to implement a USB stack.
17:57:25 <alise> Gregor: What? Why?
17:57:35 <alise> That doesn't support flash drives.
17:57:44 <Gregor> 1) Most BIOSes capable of booting from USB will do legacy emulation. 2) You can use e.g. MEMDISK even if they don't.
17:57:56 <alise> So... they'll show USB flash drives as disks?
17:58:03 <alise> Okay. Now what about cameras?
17:58:29 <Gregor> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT
17:58:34 <Gregor> HOW DID YOU READ MY PERVERTED MIND
17:58:48 <Gregor> (Actually I was going to say "USB-powered vibrators" but it's all the same)
17:58:49 <alise> Teledildonics, man. Ted Nelson has always done it before you. Always.
17:58:57 <alise> Vibrators = dildos, good to know.
17:59:15 <Gregor> Well no, but they fall under the category "sex toys" :P
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17:59:36 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasmatron
18:00:09 <alise> ftp://ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/ awesomeeee
18:00:29 <alise> Gregor: Here, you figure out WTF format those sources are in. Also how to get the floppies in the other directory working.
18:00:36 <alise> I'll ... research old FreeBSD releases.
18:00:50 <alise> (research, n. masturbate furiously to)
18:00:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:01:33 <alise> Welcome to FreeBSD! This document has been put together in an effort
18:01:33 <alise> to make initial installation of the system from floppy as easy as possible.
18:01:33 <alise> If you have either a SCSI cdrom drive or one of the supported Mitsumi
18:01:33 <alise> CDROM drives you can use the cdins-*.flp to install you system with. This
18:01:33 <alise> is much easier than using the 3 floppy install method.
18:01:38 <alise> CD install in 1993. Wowzers.
18:02:30 <alise> I /think/ you're meant to burn ftp://ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/i386/1.0-RELEASE/ to a CD, then use one of the boot floppies.
18:03:00 <Gregor> You mean you're supposed to pay an exorbitant price for one to be pressed.
18:03:09 <alise> But I think ftp://ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/i386/1.0-RELEASE/ is the files you need.
18:03:26 <alise> They don't sell 1.0 any more, as far as I know :P
18:03:48 -!- jillsmitt has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:06:00 <alise> Gregor: So does that CD just contain the contents of three floppies?!
18:06:47 <Gregor> That was all they could fit on a CD in 1993 :P
18:09:05 -!- jillsmitt has joined.
18:09:18 <alise> this laptop is so awesome
18:11:49 <alise> DEAR OERJAN, COPPRO, AND WHOEVER HERE IS FROM BALTIMORE:
18:11:51 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/VrtUT.jpg
18:12:15 <fizzie> alise: If you concatenate all those SRC01.00 .. 61 files together, you end up with a compress'd cpio archive.
18:12:27 <alise> fizzie: Okay. You do that.
18:12:36 <fizzie> Well, it's still fetching.
18:13:12 <alise> Maybe Deewiant could do the downloading part.
18:13:20 <fizzie> Well, it did finish already.
18:13:35 <fizzie> What do you want me to do with the contents, though?
18:13:55 * alise downloads 10 MiB. Hello, graphical Linux.
18:14:00 <alise> fizzie: Concatenate them and peek what's inside. :-P
18:14:08 <alise> I'm interested to know if it has, say, a build system.
18:14:57 <fizzie> alise: Well, here's a file listing: http://sprunge.us/ZQGI
18:15:10 <fizzie> There's a Makefile in /usr/src, at least.
18:15:21 <alise> But is it enough to build a floppy?
18:17:13 <pikhq> And will it blend?
18:17:47 <fizzie> I don't know about that. There *is* a usr/obj/sys.386bsd/i386/floppy/ directory with some basic-ish tools (fsck, init, sh, etc.); one would assume it's built from usr/src.
18:18:30 <alise> How do I tell QEMU to resize to whatever resolution the screen is?
18:19:04 <Gregor> Uhhhh, it's supposed to do that automatically, and regardless of what you tell it to do otherwise.
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18:19:17 <alise> Well, it ... isn't.
18:19:32 <pikhq> Beat it with a stick.
18:19:47 <pikhq> And then... Demand that Project Gutenberg publish books using TeX!
18:20:03 <alise> TeX is just like SeX BUT WITH A T
18:20:07 <alise> AND EVERYTHING IS BETTER WITH TEA.
18:20:10 <Gregor> And a lot more typesetting.
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18:21:02 <alise> pikhq: I just though I would point out that Tiny Core is fucking X11-HAVING, INTERNET-CONNECTED LINUX IN TEN MEGABYTES.
18:21:07 <alise> With glib fucking C.
18:21:17 <alise> Indeed glib does fuck C but I mean glib-fucking-c.
18:21:48 <alise> So is Puppy Linux and SliTaz and all those ilk.
18:21:58 <fizzie> alise: If you want the "Tiny 386BSD" floppy, the CAREWARE.INFO file instructs you to send a (3.5" or 5.25" HD formatted) floppy and a self-addressed stamped envelope to "Tiny 386BSD, DDJ, 411 Borel Avenue, San Mateo, CA. 94402 USA"; but it's written in 1992, so...
18:22:11 <alise> fizzie: Rather, I want to modify 386BSD and recompile the distro.
18:22:23 <alise> Call it 686BSD X-P
18:22:35 <alise> BSDM; the M is for modern
18:23:43 * alise downloads firefox into ram
18:24:03 <alise> FIREFOX IN RAM has there ever a better phrase been uttered? aww tiny core doesn't have firefox
18:24:33 <fizzie> alise: Well... the instructions do say that (after several configuration steps and building everything with 'make') the system "may be tested by copying into a floppy that holds a minimal set of utilies (e.g. fixit floppy), --"
18:24:37 <alise> installin' midori to ram and shit
18:25:04 <alise> fizzie: So basically ... it is probably possible to produce a modified 386BSD distro?
18:25:09 <alise> Here, you, try and run make. :P
18:25:12 <alise> I suggest using bsdmake, obviously.
18:25:37 <fizzie> I am a bit suspicious of what sort of compiler it would like.
18:26:11 <alise> gcc might just work.
18:26:52 <fizzie> "-- runs the config program on a host description file (e.g. config SUMNER) --"; then I go "hmm, what's a SUMNER?" and take a peek at the config file: "# Thos Sumner's 50Mhz 486"
18:27:48 <fizzie> I don't quite know where the "config" program is, though.
18:28:00 <alise> fizzie: Maybe the makefile would give some hints? Here, how big is the cpio?
18:28:07 <alise> Can you just gzip it and upload it somewhere?
18:28:18 <jillsmitt> alise: what is the conception of this channel?
18:28:42 <alise> jillsmitt: esoteric programming languages & computing; let me guess: you are here for the magic?
18:29:22 <jillsmitt> alise: nope, i just newbee in developers world
18:29:57 <fizzie> alise: http://zem.fi/~fis/src01.cpio.bz2 is ~7.3 megabytes, not bad. And the "config" program seems to be in usr/src/usr.sbin/config/; there is a slight chance a top-level "make" would build it. (Those test-on-a-floppy instructions were for the sys.386bsd part, which looks kernely to me.)
18:30:02 <alise> jillsmitt: well do you know of brainfuck, intercal or befunge?
18:30:27 <alise> those languages designed to be obscure and impossible, that's basically our forte; though we're rarely on topic and when we are, it tends to be about hopelessly theoretical languages
18:30:40 <alise> fizzie: well give it a go then :D
18:30:50 <jillsmitt> alise: only a couple of words.. it is a low-level language, kernel programming or something like that
18:31:12 <alise> jillsmitt: basically, esoteric language = impractical, difficult language
18:31:18 <alise> there's more than that but that is the basic idea
18:31:29 <alise> right now we're trying to run old operating systems from the early 90s :-P
18:32:09 <jillsmitt> alise: can i ask any documentation?
18:32:28 <alise> jillsmitt: sure -- documentation for what?
18:32:42 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has pages for all esoteric languages, more or less
18:32:52 <alise> pikhq: wow i'm actually running midori from ram, unpossible
18:33:03 <fizzie> We have a befunge bot, that's very accessible for new folks too.
18:33:06 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:33:15 <fizzie> Just take a peek at that.
18:33:26 <alise> don't be evil fizzie :P
18:33:44 <alise> fizzie: is this the whole source thing
18:34:10 <jillsmitt> alise: i want to download some off-line docs about your language
18:34:26 <alise> jillsmitt: which language? we have many
18:34:30 <zzo38> You can copy the wiki files if you want to
18:34:35 <fizzie> alise: The whole, all concatenated.
18:34:42 <alise> any bsdmake success?
18:34:56 <zzo38> You can also print them if you want to
18:35:27 <jillsmitt> oh... sorry, english is not my native, brainfuck i think =) alise. i will read wiki pages right now
18:35:46 <fizzie> alise: http://sprunge.us/Mgeb for a top-level invocation; I guess the world is supposed to be built on a BSD system. There's not too much of documentation there.
18:35:47 <alise> jillsmitt: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck is the place for brainfuck
18:36:04 <alise> fizzie: hmm, maybe try and build just the kernel?
18:36:32 <alise> fizzie: of course the sure thing is to use the pre-build 386bsd floppies to build it
18:36:36 <fizzie> But I need the "config" tool to turn a host config file into a kernel build-dir.
18:36:53 <alise> well what's one more floppy between friends?
18:37:08 <fizzie> It's of course possible config'd build cleanly on a non-BSD too.
18:37:13 <alise> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/386bsd-Bootflp/ may be it
18:37:21 <alise> i think the floppies are the two files with the same size
18:37:30 <alise> and i think you need to assemble the other cpios http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/386BSD/
18:37:38 <alise> the boot floppies will prompt for those, i think
18:37:53 <fizzie> I'll gogogo to sauna now, sorrey.
18:38:16 <fizzie> As for building just "config" stand-alone: http://sprunge.us/UePD
18:38:20 <zzo38> I have found out how to copy a disk image using DefineDosDevice, in Windows.
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18:41:00 <jillsmitt> alise: i have "The precondition on the request for the URL / evaluated to false." on http://www.esolangs.org/
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18:41:22 <alise> jillsmitt: maybe it is blocking you for some reason
18:41:25 <zzo38> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.17 see the top please answer
18:41:43 <zzo38> jillsmitt: I got that once based on User-Agent string, try changing it
18:41:55 <zzo38> I think the User-Agent string is not allowed to contain a URL
18:41:57 <alise> zzo38: the \n is very ugly
18:42:01 <alise> zzo38: I suggest "n" in a diamond shape
18:42:19 <alise> zzo38: I also suggest that the + appears above the <-
18:42:20 <zzo38> alise: How do I put letters in a diamond shape?
18:42:26 <alise> zzo38: I'm not sure, in Plain TeX.
18:42:42 <zzo38> alise: Yes I did want the + above the arrow, but I couldn't do that so I put the arrow above instead.
18:42:46 <alise> zzo38: one thing I dislike about CWEB is the |_| for space
18:42:52 <alise> i'd just put a normal space there
18:43:51 <zzo38> Maybe I might fix it to put a normal space
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18:46:32 <alise> sftp is terribly secure
18:46:49 <zzo38> I often use sftp at Free Geek
18:47:55 <alise> [[Are there any self-deprecating Norwegians? Why is it that every Norwegian is all oh, look at the beautiful view and fantastic life I have and yet there aren't any "I hate Norway it is a horrible place".
18:47:55 <alise> Be more miserable.]]
18:48:29 <alise> oerjan: ok i'm on a plane now
18:49:21 <oerjan> hey it's a horrible place, it's just everywhere else is worse *ducks*
18:49:37 <zzo38> The most of the security is that those computers cannot be accessed from outside of Free Geek (except the wiki).
18:50:16 <oerjan> alise: wait, literally?
18:52:35 <alise> oerjan: be afraid. be very afraid
18:53:15 <alise> oerjan: you can't really sneak up on someone with a plane, this is the only issue
18:53:47 <oerjan> i hear someone called al-qaida has had some success with it
18:54:36 <alise> well ok so al-qaida is technically valid.
18:54:50 <alise> oerjan: i'm fucking with you, i'm not on a plane
18:54:57 <oerjan> i think arabic transliteration varies according to the phases of the planets
18:57:28 <alise> zzo38: it does depend on the number of sheep in new zealand though
18:58:16 <alise> oerjan: although 38 if the number of sheep is 37
18:58:20 <alise> creating the 37 Scenario
18:58:28 <zzo38> Do you like the way that octal and hexadecimal characters are printed?
18:58:30 <alise> (where every transliteration consists purely of consonants)
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19:11:19 <zzo38> calamari: What is your opinion of printing octal/hexadecimal characters in C string, in the printout?
19:15:10 <calamari> zzo38, is there a controversy? lol
19:27:02 <zzo38> Yes see the picture. And see if the other things (such as \n and so on) are good. Do you know how to put "n" in a circle or diamond shape in TeX? (Instead of overtyping the backslash and n)
19:33:59 <zzo38> What is Donald Knuth's telephone number (or address)? After I finished writing some things in Enhanced CWEB I want to see whether or not he prefer the Enhanced CWEB or the standard CWEB
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19:36:40 <pikhq> zzo38: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/email.html
19:37:55 <zzo38> OK thanks for the address
19:38:18 <pikhq> Also, it amuses me that he appears to use TeX for his website.
19:39:14 <zzo38> Does he? I thought it is just HTML (possibly hand-coded)
19:39:39 <zzo38> Is what the codes for that page looks like to me
19:39:56 <pikhq> It's the usage of `` '' for quotes that does it.
19:40:50 <pikhq> Though, that may just be a Knuth-ism.
19:40:53 <zzo38> He might enter those things in HTML just because it is also used in TeX
19:41:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes that is what I mean
19:42:52 <zzo38> Do you think if I wrote a letter they would send a reply in 3 months?
19:43:07 <zzo38> (To the return address on the envelope)
19:43:14 <zzo38> And how many stamps will it need?
19:43:44 <pikhq> He almost certainly will reply, and I dunno what the appropriate postage is.
19:43:55 <zzo38> Well, if someone I know is going there soon I will ask them to just put the envelope in their mailbox directly
19:43:55 <pikhq> You're in Canada, correct?
19:44:01 <zzo38> Yes I am in Canada
19:44:12 <pikhq> Unfortunately, that makes it difficult.
19:44:22 <pikhq> I highly doubt the US postal service likes Canadian postage.
19:45:14 <zzo38> But isn't Canada Post supposed to replace the stamps with United States stamps if I put it in a Canadian mailbox and the address is United States?
19:45:47 <pikhq> That's not how international post works.
19:46:50 <zzo38> Then how does international post works?
19:47:05 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reply_coupon There we go. Try to get one of these.
19:48:03 <oerjan> oh for the return mail
19:48:10 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works. OK
19:48:34 <pikhq> And when you send it *there*, you simply pay sufficient postage. (your post office would probably know how much "sufficient postage" is.)
19:49:05 <pikhq> And international treaties make it so that postage "just works".
19:49:11 <pikhq> Hooray, international treaties!
19:50:51 <oerjan> hm wouldn't the replier need to visit a post office to convert those into stamps, though?
19:51:17 <oerjan> not as simple as just dropping it into a mailbox
19:51:40 <pikhq> Yeah; it's the best you can do for sending international postage, though.
19:52:29 <pikhq> Actually. A Canadian post office *might* have US postage for sale.
19:52:34 <pikhq> (big maybe, though)
19:53:11 <coppro> just include a $1 bill or something
19:53:32 <coppro> (yes, I know that's a bad idea)
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20:15:47 <alise> "New concept battery is recharged by vibration - how perfect is this for wireless controllers?"
20:16:02 <alise> One word: never-ending dildo
20:16:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:17:02 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cqk6d/berkeley_programming_professor_posted_an/
20:17:24 <Sgeo> "I need a Bot to enter moves made by computer on a chess board GUI "A", to an online java flash chessboard GUI"B", and moves made by "B" computer player to "A"."
20:20:20 <alise> Wow. The word "acronym" only dates back to 1943.
20:20:45 <alise> oerjan: of course scroll down to question 20 to see the 'real' test
20:20:58 <alise> the answer is E, by the way
20:21:06 <alise> (before you say I'm wrong: read it closely)
20:21:09 <alise> (apply sarcasm detector)
20:21:15 <pikhq> Lulu.com has very affordable costs for even single-book printings of things.
20:21:44 <oerjan> alise: i chose to interpret it as a joke jab on the fact that every standardized test contains at least one question that is ill-defined, ambiguous and an insult to anyone with actual intelligence.
20:21:45 <alise> But the quality isn't so good afaik.
20:21:50 <alise> It's just paperback isn't it?
20:22:06 <alise> oerjan: actually, the whole thing is based around #20 being a comment on the uselessness of standardised tests
20:22:13 <alise> idiots think standardised tests measure intelligence
20:22:19 <alise> idiots think barometers measure all of the weather
20:22:19 <pikhq> You choose the printing quality.
20:22:25 <alise> weather = temperature + wind-velocity + latitude + longitude
20:22:30 <pikhq> From somewhat-shitty paperbacks to decent hardcover books.
20:22:35 <alise> therefore the answer to #20 is E.
20:22:45 <alise> pikhq: just ask Quadrescence to hand-bind a book for you :P
20:22:57 <oerjan> alise: although after reading the reddit discussion i note that E _is_ apparently the intended choice, it makes the answers form a sentence
20:22:58 <pikhq> Quadrescence: You. Time Machine. FTW.
20:23:08 <Sgeo> alise, or it could be any, since any could fit there, I guess
20:23:17 <oerjan> alise: i _still_ prefer my meta-jab though ;D
20:23:19 <alise> Quadrescence and a time machine: pikhq's plans for the night.
20:23:38 <oerjan> (i put a jab in your jab etc.)
20:24:04 <oerjan> alise: so i solved it without assuming anything about #20. found four solutions.
20:24:43 <alise> oerjan: this would be terribly easy with haskell or prolog :P
20:25:00 <oerjan> true. i did it by hand though.
20:25:22 <oerjan> (ok i consider vim an extension of my hands, here ;D)
20:25:44 <Quadrescence> pikhq: do you want a book printed or something
20:25:49 <pikhq> alise: Also; a friend of mine has a copy of Atlanta Nights, which was published hardcover by Lulu. Good print quality.
20:26:09 <pikhq> Quadrescence: I've just got a couple of totally nicely typeset books here and think I should have them printed & bound some day.
20:26:37 <alise> pikhq: Pfft, not the original PublishAmerica edition?
20:26:37 <pikhq> alise: Bad book, but it's printed well. :P
20:26:51 <Quadrescence> pikhq: I could do it depending on what exactly you're looking for.
20:27:02 <alise> Oh, it was never printed by them.
20:27:05 <alise> They withdrew their offer.
20:27:09 <alise> (After finding out about the hoax.)
20:27:21 <pikhq> Quadrescence: It's "some day when I've got slightly more expendable income" that I want it done anyways.
20:27:50 <pikhq> Quadrescence: But, yeah. Just "The Time Machine" and "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", typeset in TeX.
20:29:17 <pikhq> Anyways: it's just now hitting me that literally any idiot can have any arbitrary book printed.
20:29:48 <alise> but is it done with beeswax???
20:29:55 <alise> this is the personal touch pikhq, you will never find happiness without Quadrescence
20:29:59 <pikhq> If I really felt like it, I could have a hard-cover copy of Linux printed. :P
20:30:07 <pikhq> alise: You do make a good point.
20:30:26 <alise> pikhq: Tell me you made it with the memoir class.
20:30:44 <pikhq> alise: Currently, it's on a tweaked book class.
20:30:53 <pikhq> Easy to change around though.
20:30:56 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Change "book" to "memoir", then read this: http://www.tex.ac.uk/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/memoir/memman.pdf
20:31:04 <alise> Seriously. memoir makes everything just so much better.
20:31:22 <alise> Sgeo: Atlanta Nights was made to prove that PublishAmerica were a vanity firm.
20:31:43 <pikhq> I've also discovered that LyX is a very, very nice TeX editor, if you're into GUI things.
20:33:59 <Sgeo> 'On 23 January 2005, the hoax was publicly revealed by the authors. On 24 January 2005, PublishAmerica retracted its acceptance, stating that after "further review" the novel failed to meet their standards.
20:34:07 <coppro> alise: how much do you like vi?
20:34:52 <alise> coppro: I like it and I dislike it.
20:34:53 * Sgeo downloads VS2010
20:34:59 <coppro> alise: what do you dislike?
20:35:27 <coppro> because I want an integrated vi desktop everything
20:38:13 <alise> coppro: you're crazy
20:38:19 <alise> coppro: i liked you better before you tried vim
20:39:51 * Sgeo isn't 100% sure what the difference between vi and vim is
20:40:19 <alise> Sgeo: vi is old, and more an ethos nowadays than a real thing; vim is like vi but bloated.
20:40:32 <alise> coppro: because you had a more reasoned opinion about editors. :p
20:40:54 <coppro> oh, vi has lots of bad bits
20:41:06 <coppro> but the principle of different modes and the ease of commands are things I like
20:41:06 <Sgeo> Is it safe to assume that vim is less bloated than emacs?
20:41:24 <Quadrescence> pikhq: Well, I can make "junky" softcovers. Junky as in lower paper quality, just a cardstock cover with the title printed on it and the spine, glued binding, etc. I can also make sewn hardcovers that are clothbound which I can't replicate exactly and which are a little more "personal"
20:41:38 <alise> "This is one of the fun things about physics. If my 360 controller vibrated when I played Halo, so then I could power my Gameboy with the batteries, then time wouldn't exist."
20:41:40 <Quadrescence> I can also do typography and whatever just sayin
20:41:46 <alise> coppro: safe, but not /that/ safe
20:41:54 <alise> coppro: vim is quite bloated
20:42:05 <coppro> vim itself? it's not that bad
20:42:23 <Quadrescence> coppro: I hope you're just joking around and actually use emacs
20:42:53 <Sgeo> Or at least, when I have to use an editor at a terminal, I <3 emacs
20:43:33 <coppro> you poor thing; there are times when you don't?
20:45:52 <Sgeo> Dear Daemon Tools: Didn't I just tell you to NOT install a toolbar? Dear Spybot S&D's Teatime: WHY would you just be dismissed at a keypress? I have no clue what just happened, because I was in the middle of complaining about DAEMON Tools
20:46:33 <pikhq> alise: My goodness the memoir class is awesome.
20:46:59 <alise> My "The Metamorphosis" is set with it; I fiddled about with the chapter headings and page numbers and got something amazing.
20:46:59 <pikhq> It's... The perfect way to create books in TeX.
20:47:33 <Sgeo> Can LyX support it?
20:47:39 <alise> Sgeo: Probably not.
20:47:59 <pikhq> If it can't, well, it's a simple enough matter to get proper TeX out of it and play with it from there.
20:48:26 <alise> On the other hand, why not just write LaTeX directly?
20:48:28 <alise> It's not hard or anything.
20:50:15 <AnMaster> strange messages during my harddrive firmware upgrade: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/firmware-upgrade/
20:51:52 <alise> "So I pressed my Any key but the program didn't find it satisfactionary it seems, it wanted another press on the Any key:"
20:51:55 <alise> Could you get more boring if you tried?
20:52:03 <alise> Also, "satisfactionary" is really not a word. Really really not.
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20:52:45 <Gregor> You don't find the word "satisfactionary" to be satisfactory, eh?
20:53:11 <alise> I don't find "satisfactionary" very satisfactionary. It's not a very cromulent word.
20:53:21 <alise> I think AnMaster is just trying to embiggen his vocabulary; I don't find this very satisfactionary.
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20:56:36 <pikhq> BTW, lyx does support the memoir class.
20:56:42 <pikhq> As "Book (memoir)".
20:57:12 <AnMaster> <alise> Also, "satisfactionary" is really not a word. Really really not. <-- so I didn't spell check
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20:57:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <alise> Also, "satisfactionary" is really not a word. Really really not. <-- so I didn't spell check
20:58:05 <alise10mb> AnMaster: It's not so much a spelling error as a pointless ... conflabulation.
20:58:25 <alise10mb> I wonder why this text is small in Tiny Core.
20:59:11 <AnMaster> alise10mb, and I assume you found the strangness boring too?
20:59:21 <alise10mb> AnMaster: Tiny Core Linux is a graphical, Internet-supporting, package-manager-including, graphical-package-manager-including, Terminal-including Linux distribution that is only a 10 MiB ISO. It loads completely into RAM, and even uses glibc.
20:59:45 <alise10mb> Indeed, the strangeness is very boring. If your expectations of me are that I demonstrate a sense of humour with some sort of discrimination and taste, then thanks.
21:00:08 <alise10mb> AnMaster: I think it uses a compressed kernel including the distro. Not sure. RAM usage after boot is 30 MiB or something.
21:00:08 <AnMaster> alise10mb, I did not expect we had compatible senses of humour. However there are other people here than you and me.
21:00:17 <AnMaster> it was mostly for their benefit I posted that
21:00:18 <alise10mb> pikhq: do you find that web page funy?
21:00:18 <oerjan> alise10mb: your "The Metamorphosis" is not a good example of memoir; it's all buggy.
21:00:31 <AnMaster> alise10mb, I know you will find everything I do boring anyway. *shrug*
21:00:34 <Sgeo> alise10mb, what, not a 1.44mb distro?
21:00:47 <AnMaster> alise10mb, basically I don't care about your opinion
21:00:51 <alise10mb> Sgeo: There used to exist floppy distros with X; not nowadays.
21:01:01 <alise10mb> AnMaster: Um, you /asked me if I thought it was boring/.
21:01:07 <alise10mb> AnMaster: If you don't care, don't waste my time.
21:01:16 <alise10mb> Sgeo: pikhq was working on one, but *eh*.
21:01:41 <AnMaster> alise10mb, only after you complained that my text was boring
21:01:59 <Sgeo> Wasn't it once concluded that I was boring?
21:02:17 <alise10mb> AnMaster: Actually, I was calling your "Any key" joke boring.
21:02:30 <alise10mb> Maybe it's funny -- if you're Iliad and it's 1997 and you're writing User Friendly.
21:02:44 <alise10mb> Which is an awfully bad place to be, really, and I truly doubt anyone actually gets amused by it nowadays.
21:02:47 <alise10mb> Anyone computer literate, at least.
21:03:03 <alise10mb> SeaMonkey is smaller than I thought. 13 MiB.
21:03:07 <coppro> it's still mildly amusing if used properly
21:03:07 <Sgeo> alise10mb, he's on hiatus
21:03:15 <alise10mb> coppro: ok, but certainly not /directly/
21:03:27 <alise10mb> Sgeo: Was the spoiler that ILIAD has cancer?
21:04:02 <alise10mb> [Dramatic music. Exeunt all but bad feeling in reader's stomach.]
21:04:06 <Sgeo> I think his brother was ill, or died, or something a while ago, I'm not sure about the recent hiatus
21:04:41 <alise10mb> His brother died of cancer -- BUT NOT BEFORE PASSING IT ON TO HIM!
21:06:17 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/read.cgi?id=20091125&tid=3270602
21:06:42 <AnMaster> alise10mb, btw I seem to remember compaq changing their faq to include the any key
21:06:58 <alise10mb> Sgeo: I can't click on that link for some reason. I guess I'll load Midori manually.
21:07:09 <AnMaster> alise10mb, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/25/compaq_faq_explains_the_any/
21:07:20 <alise10mb> Oh, actually the mouse seems to have broken.
21:07:32 <AnMaster> link to their faq seems completely dead
21:10:45 <pikhq> alise10mb: Say, what's the best way to deal with *unnamed* chapters in LaTeX?
21:10:56 <alise> pikhq: \chapter{}.
21:11:04 <alise> pikhq: Then search memoir documentation to customise the chapter style.
21:11:09 <alise> That'll let you remove colons or spaces or whatever.
21:11:20 <alise> That's what I did for The Metamorphosis, anyway.
21:11:22 <pikhq> That creates some really fucking annoying hyperref stuff though. *shrug*
21:11:34 <alise> \chapter{} and set the chapters to display as Roman numerals, so I get "I", "II", "III".
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21:12:11 <pikhq> Hyperref is the package that makes the PDF output have PDF bookmarks and the ToC be clickable.
21:12:53 <alise> Meh. PDFs aren't for on-screen reading anyway.
21:13:42 <pikhq> No, wait, it "just works". Awesome.
21:13:57 <pikhq> Now just to futz with the chapter style so that looks right.
21:14:14 <alise> pikhq: Yeah; you'll end up copy-paste-and-editing a bit.
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21:14:29 * alise ponders forking Midori and making it more minimalist
21:14:34 * Sgeo doesn't like futzing with appearance stuff
21:15:14 <Sgeo> Midori, the Microsoft OS?
21:15:43 <alise> Midori the web browser.
21:15:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:19:37 * pikhq seems to not be groking how the styling works
21:20:22 <alise> pikhq: What code are you using?
21:22:28 * pikhq wants the ToC to have chapter numbers.
21:23:22 <alise> pikhq: If the chapters are unnamed, don't have a ToC!
21:23:28 <alise> pikhq: Also, are you typesetting a novel?
21:23:33 <alise> If so, do not include a Table of Contents.
21:23:35 <AnMaster> <alise> Meh. PDFs aren't for on-screen reading anyway. <-- eh? I think they work fine for that
21:23:37 <alise> Superfluous and spoilery.
21:24:06 <alise> AnMaster: no; they cannot reflow their layout to the situation, they are based on the useless-for-screen metaphor of "pages", and they are usually typeset considering print media, with the typefaces and other such things suited for print.
21:24:17 <alise> you /can/ read PDFs just fine on a screen, but it's not ideal.
21:24:19 <AnMaster> <alise> Superfluous and spoilery. <-- I know novels with ToC
21:24:19 <pikhq> Now how's about getting chapter numbers to appear in the new chapter thing and the heading?
21:24:24 <pikhq> As, say, "Chapter I".
21:24:28 <alise> AnMaster: So do I.
21:24:31 <alise> AnMaster: They're silly.
21:24:42 <alise> Indeed I got a minor spoiler that seemed like a major spoiler once by reading a ToC at the start of a novel.
21:24:42 <AnMaster> alise, some are not spoilery though.
21:24:55 <alise> AnMaster: Well, still no reason to have one. If you must, put it at the end, like an index.
21:24:56 <AnMaster> alise, also I know some semi-novels with index
21:25:30 <AnMaster> every other chapter is discworld story
21:25:35 <Sgeo> I was thumbing through Good Omens, and one of the chapter dividers was major spoilery
21:25:58 <AnMaster> the other half are popular science text
21:26:11 <coppro> Sgeo: thats your fault
21:26:14 <coppro> <3 Science of Discworld
21:26:27 <oerjan> Chapter 15, in Which the Hero meets his untimely Demise
21:26:45 <Sgeo> I should make a reading list
21:26:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I read Good Omens so it won't spoil it for me
21:26:58 <Sgeo> The last one, I think
21:27:14 -!- alise has left (?).
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21:27:21 <alise> Hmm, I wonder what Genie is doing now.
21:27:21 <AnMaster> coppro, learnt quite a few useful bits from the Science of Discworld books
21:27:34 <alise> <pikhq> Now how's about getting chapter numbers to appear in the new chapter thing and the heading?
21:27:40 <alise> Try a different chapter header and page number style.
21:27:43 <coppro> I also loved the house analogy for mathematics
21:27:46 <alise> You can copy the code (in the manual) for one and modify it to your tastes.
21:27:49 <Sgeo> Gur bar gung fnvq "Gur qnl nsgre gbzbeebj", be znlor n qnl bs gur jrrx. Vg'f orra n juvyr, ohg vg vaqvpngrq gung gur vzcraqvat ncbpnylcfr jbhyqa'g npghnyyl unccra.
21:27:52 <coppro> can't remember which book that was in
21:27:59 <Sgeo> Don't un-ROT13 if you haven't read Good Omens
21:28:06 <pikhq> alise: Trying to grok.
21:28:09 <alise> coppro: it's not Sgeo's fault
21:28:14 <AnMaster> coppro, the same one discussing Hilberts hotel iirc
21:28:21 <coppro> AnMaster: sounds right
21:28:23 <alise> not reading stuff isn't easy, and putting something potentially spoilery at the start of a book is /retarded/.
21:28:37 <Sgeo> alise, I didn't say there was a ToC
21:28:41 <alise> pikhq: I'd help by giving you code from my "The Metamorphosis", but -- do you have greppable logs?
21:28:45 <AnMaster> coppro, I seem to remember 3 discussing infinite too
21:28:48 <alise> Does anyone have greppable logs that they want to grep for me?
21:28:50 <coppro> hmm... could have been
21:29:02 <AnMaster> coppro, meh they are upstairs. You go check your copies
21:29:05 <oerjan> his so very buggy code
21:29:11 <coppro> AnMaster: I only own 3
21:29:29 <alise> AnMaster: Can you grep some logs for me? Thank you.
21:29:32 <AnMaster> coppro, I have a longer staircase! (or something)
21:29:37 <AnMaster> alise, not on that computer with logs
21:29:43 <alise> AnMaster: For, uh, "alise" and "metamorphosis", case insensitive; for the source file of my The Metamorphosis.
21:29:49 <alise> pikhq: What is the code you are using, what are you trying to do?
21:29:49 <coppro> AnMaster: what's your altitude. Maybe the air is thicker?
21:29:53 <AnMaster> alise, the last 2 hours or so: sure
21:30:14 * oerjan invents the word "greppatim"
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21:30:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: exactly as grepped
21:30:59 <pikhq> alise: I'm trying most things in here and they're all having *no effect*.
21:31:13 <coppro> AnMaster: the air is thicker where you are
21:31:20 <AnMaster> coppro, it is slower to move in the ticker air
21:31:27 <oerjan> definitely an english mangling
21:31:31 <coppro> that's your excuse for not going upstairs
21:31:31 <AnMaster> coppro, thus you go check your copy
21:31:40 <coppro> however, I only own one book :D
21:31:45 <AnMaster> coppro, oh I thought you were trying to use that the other way around
21:31:50 <alise> pikhq: Okay, um, you know when I ask for code? I mean actual code. :P
21:31:53 <alise> Like, pastebin would be good.
21:31:58 <coppro> AnMaster: no, I was trying to figure out your "or something" :P
21:32:16 <Sgeo> BRB, restarting for Daemon Tool's sake
21:32:52 <oerjan> it's a tool of daemons
21:32:54 <pikhq> alise: Could you just give me a freaking example of what *actually* works?
21:33:22 <SgeoN1> It's disturbing how long I have to wait between clicking Shut Down and getting the screen to choose what I want to do
21:33:23 <AnMaster> coppro, well iirc in #3 they discuss infinity in the middle somewhere. Ponder in the big hall. Archchancellor (sp!?) coming in from his morning jog or such and then a discussion of infinity. Followed by a chapter on that subject
21:33:28 <alise> pikhq: Not without knowing what you're trying to do &c. Can't you just paste the header of your file and I'll try and see an error?
21:33:42 <coppro> AnMaster: okay, fine, I'll go look
21:34:19 <AnMaster> must have been #3 since it was about Darwin
21:34:28 <pikhq> Ah, there it is. "\pagestyle{plain}". That's dumb to have. :P
21:34:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, what are you typesetting?
21:34:57 <SgeoN1> It should not take this bloody long. I'm pretty sure my hodgepodge registry is screwing somethivng up
21:35:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: "The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells.
21:35:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, I assume you use pdftex?
21:35:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, remember to use microtype
21:35:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, optically straight margins rock :D
21:36:17 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:36:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, just put \usepackage{microtype}
21:37:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, I suspect luatex can do this too
21:37:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:37:35 <AnMaster> well it will be able to at least
21:37:39 <SgeoN1> Does that do what it sounds like?
21:37:42 <pikhq> Microtypography is one of the major *points* of XeTeX.
21:38:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, so it is able to do optically straight margins?
21:38:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:38:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, strange the microtype docs only mention pdftex and luatex then
21:39:06 <AnMaster> <SgeoN1> Does that do what it sounds like? <-- what does it sound like?
21:39:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: It also does OpenType fonts and Unicode.
21:39:27 <SgeoN1> Like it lets you use Lua in TeX
21:39:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:41:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I thought that was the main point of XeTeX?
21:41:15 <coppro> AnMaster: page 171 in #3
21:41:16 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, no. It is itself written in Lua mostly
21:41:36 <pikhq> Delicious, delicious Unicode.
21:42:25 <AnMaster> hm a TeX self-interpreter would be neat
21:42:49 <coppro> I think it's an especially accurate description of set theory
21:43:04 <AnMaster> coppro, what? the house analogy?
21:44:29 <SgeoN1> O.o at a proper name being in my dictionary
21:44:36 <SgeoN1> Must have added it at some point
21:44:39 <AnMaster> coppro, rather accurate for a lot of math. Peopled dabbled with splitting areas in infinite number of elements before integrals were invented.
21:45:08 <coppro> and computer science generally
21:45:22 <AnMaster> coppro, have we defined stuff there at all yet? ;P
21:46:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:47:16 <alise> pikhq: no, xetex doesn't support microtype
21:47:30 <alise> & i do suggest you use latex+microtype, but i'll let Quadrescence argue that one
21:48:02 * SgeoN1 adds The Science of Discworld and House of Leaves to his reading list
21:48:37 <alise> AnMaster: ok, but you can stop mentioning them every five seconds now.
21:49:20 <AnMaster> alise, because I haven't started
21:49:24 <pikhq> alise: Okay, then.
21:49:33 <pikhq> alise: Good font for LaTeX, then?
21:49:34 * SgeoN1 mounts the VS2010 disc
21:49:47 <alise> pikhq: Garamond, for instance.
21:50:16 <alise> pikhq: http://gael-varoquaux.info/computers/garamond/index.html is excellent, except for that the Q is way too elaborate.
21:50:28 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, science of discworld is the first of three books. Science of Discworld II: The Globe and Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch
21:50:38 <SgeoN1> Is it possible to use LaTeX without making all of these visual choices?
21:50:57 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, that is what latex is all about
21:51:12 <alise> pikhq: If you pirate ITC New Baskerville, you can use http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/psfonts/adobe/nbaskerv/.
21:51:37 * AnMaster suddenly wants to write a book called "This book does not use tiTLeCAse
21:51:42 <SgeoN1> Is there anything where I don't have to care about such choices?
21:51:53 <AnMaster> this keyboard, somewhat unused to typing on it
21:52:44 <alise> SgeoN1: this stuff is only for control freaks.
21:52:53 <alise> LaTeX's default output is typographically perfect modulo absolute pedanticism
21:53:05 <AnMaster> <alise> pikhq: If you pirate ITC New Baskerville, you can use http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/psfonts/adobe/nbaskerv/. <-- does that support microtype?
21:53:08 <alise> (yeah, ok, *you* notice optically straight margins, but it's more a typographer's masturbation than an actual useful tool)
21:53:10 <SgeoN1> Oh, I misinterpreted anmaster
21:53:21 <alise> AnMaster: font is irrelevant to microtype
21:53:38 <AnMaster> alise, it is font dependant for kerning
21:53:39 <alise> AnMaster: well i don't recall it that way.
21:53:43 <alise> AnMaster: ok. well.
21:53:47 <alise> AnMaster: i think latex kerns by itself
21:53:50 <alise> in fact i'm certain
21:54:03 <alise> and i don't think fine-tuning kerning is on pikhq's agenda
21:54:05 <alise> so it doesn't matter.
21:54:56 <alise> but not optically straight margins, etc.
21:55:00 <alise> therefore pikhq should pirate ITC New Baskerville :P
21:55:08 <alise> of course baskerville doesn't work too well in print.
21:55:14 <AnMaster> alise, link to sample of that font?
21:55:15 <alise> of course baskerville doesn't work too well on screen.
21:55:24 <alise> AnMaster: well, baskerville is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baskerville
21:55:38 <alise> afaik ITC New Baskerville is just a font of Baskerville, presumably tuned at least a /little/ bit for screen
21:55:46 <AnMaster> alise, I find CMR works nicely both on screen and in print
21:56:09 <alise> there's nothing wrong with computer modern.
21:56:12 <alise> but are you seriously treating my
21:56:15 <alise> "baskerville sucks on screen"
21:56:20 <alise> as a request for a 'better' typeface/
21:56:36 <alise> Do you not think that some typefaces do some things better than others? That some typefaces are more suited to individual works than others?
21:56:39 <AnMaster> ... it was a side channel remark
21:56:44 <SgeoN1> Wow, imvu, which I hate, takes up a lot of space on my HD
21:56:46 <alise> It was not delivered so.
21:56:59 <SgeoN1> Yes, there are virtual worlds that I hate
21:57:00 <alise> If I set Douglas Adams in Computer Modern I'd have to commit harakiri.
21:57:21 <SgeoN1> And no, not just because its younger than 10
21:57:25 <AnMaster> <alise> Do you not think that some typefaces do some things better than others? That some typefaces are more suited to individual works than others? <-- um? Depends. Probably for titles. But not for the prose of most books.
21:57:38 <AnMaster> such as Death's voice in Discworld
21:57:47 <AnMaster> but most books don't use such stuff
21:57:51 <alise> AnMaster: Er, no. Some authors' styles are definitely more suited to some typefaces than others.
21:58:03 <alise> Or would you print a book in Comic Sans?
21:58:09 <alise> A comic, maybe; a book?
21:58:18 <alise> No? Then you admit that the best choice of typeface depends on the work.
21:58:32 <AnMaster> so no it doesn't. Comic Sans fits nowhere
21:58:34 * SgeoN1 prints alise in wingdings
21:58:50 <AnMaster> what I was trying to say however
21:58:58 <AnMaster> is that I think there are neutral fonts
21:58:58 <alise> if you really hate comic sans even for comics substitute some comic font
21:59:00 <alise> you still wouldn't set a book in it
21:59:10 <AnMaster> alise, those are not books with great lengths of prose
21:59:24 <alise> AnMaster: And would you set a very interesting and lively book - jumping through subjects - say if Feynman wrote a novel on crack - that - does that deserve a neutral font? No! surely not --
21:59:25 <pikhq> BaaahIdon'thaveitalicgaramond.
21:59:37 <alise> pikhq: Baaaahusebaskerville. BaaaahfuckXeTeX.
21:59:45 <SgeoN1> Um, crud, the uninstaller seems to be having some difficulties.
21:59:50 <pikhq> alise: Using pdflatex ATM.
21:59:59 <alise> pikhq: Don't use that Garamond its Q sucks
22:00:06 <alise> You're breaking the law w/ your text anyway, just pirate a font :P
22:00:25 <pikhq> "The Time Machine" is public domain.
22:00:30 <AnMaster> alise, CMR is a pretty neutral font. You can use it for novels. You can use it for articles. For most stuff
22:00:40 <alise> pikhq: Well, who cares about copyright law.
22:00:46 <alise> AnMaster: No, Computer Modern is Didone.
22:00:51 <pikhq> Whaddya think about Palatino?
22:00:58 <alise> Papers it works for; mathematical papers are traditionally set in Modern/Didone fonts.
22:01:17 <alise> However, setting the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in Computer Modern or, heaven forbid, even Bodoni would be a crime.
22:01:23 <SgeoN1> Next I'll just start verbing people
22:01:27 <alise> pikhq: I like me some Palatino, though note that if you're considering the URW edition it isn't quite so good.
22:01:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, nice font for math iirc
22:01:29 <alise> URW editions rarely are.
22:01:48 <pikhq> OHMYFUCKINGGODITDOESNTHAVELIGATURES
22:01:51 <pikhq> NONONONONONONONONO
22:02:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm I never saw what the point of ligatures was
22:02:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: A lack of them is ugly.
22:02:21 <AnMaster> sure they are nice. But not such a big deal
22:02:44 <pikhq> I demand ligatures.
22:03:05 <AnMaster> didn't English use to use a lot more of them?
22:03:59 <alise> AnMaster: take a look at "fi" in e.g. Century Schoolbook someday, unkerned
22:04:42 <SgeoN1> fi or ... that weird thing i ?
22:06:12 <SgeoN1> Weird thing that looks like f and sounds like s
22:06:13 <pikhq> alise: New Century Schoolbook looks decent...
22:06:29 <pikhq> Baskerville is tempting, though.
22:06:43 <alise> pikhq: Century Schoolbook should be reserved for factual stuff and essays, imo.
22:06:52 <alise> It's dossier-esque.
22:07:00 <pikhq> It's The Time Machine.
22:07:06 <alise> Well, yes, but still.
22:07:13 <alise> Besides, Century Schoolbook would be an anachronism.
22:07:49 <alise> If you can acquire Baskerville -- perhaps not necessarily ITC New Bakerville -- I'd go with that. As long as it's properly digitised, it'll look great in print and ... well, readable on screen.
22:07:58 <alise> Some Baskervilles suck, though.
22:08:05 <pikhq> I wonder what font it was published in originally.
22:08:16 <alise> Baskerville is definitely the typeface of H2G2, at least.
22:08:26 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: take a look at "fi" in e.g. Century Schoolbook someday, unkerned <-- does latex have it?
22:08:49 <alise> AnMaster: Somewhere.
22:08:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: The family is pnc, it will have actual ligatures.
22:09:03 <AnMaster> alise, ... on my ubuntu system?
22:09:30 <alise> AnMaster: On the internet, at least.
22:09:37 <alise> I produced "fi" with Word.
22:09:49 -!- jillsmitt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:10:02 <pikhq> alise: Unligatured fi makes me angry.
22:10:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has left (?).
22:10:37 <alise> Every time God sees an unligatured "fi", He rapes a kitten and kills a prostitute.
22:10:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia_%28typeface%29 Ooh.
22:11:13 <pikhq> alise: What do you think of Linux Libertine O?
22:11:57 <alise> pikhq: Well, of course, it's a free font, and those almost universally suck; Libertine basically obeys that rule. What is remarkable about its O?
22:12:00 <AnMaster> <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia_%28typeface%29 Ooh. <-- why on earth did I read that as "California" first
22:12:15 <pikhq> alise: What sucks about it?
22:12:31 <alise> pikhq: It's not /bad/, it just isn't nearly as /good/.
22:12:39 <pikhq> Okay, fair enough.
22:12:40 <AnMaster> alise, bitstream vera sans mono is nice for coding. Doesn't suck IMO
22:12:49 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, uh, monospaced fonts are barely typography. Sorry.
22:13:00 <AnMaster> alise, I didn't say I wanted to typeset a book in it...
22:13:00 <alise> pikhq: Typography is very much an industry stuck in the past, really, as far as typefaces goes.
22:13:17 <pikhq> It's just that it's one of the nicer free-as-in-libre fonts I've found.
22:13:25 <AnMaster> alise, plus I consider tiny bitmapped monospace fonts for embedded use to be a noble art
22:13:41 <pikhq> (namely, it actually allows for things like "decent typesetting" and doesn't rape my eyes.)
22:13:47 <alise> pikhq: That is true. http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/ are beer rather than speech but they're damn good typefaces.
22:14:03 <alise> I really want http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html, but don't have the money (it's one of his few paid fonts).
22:14:11 <alise> It includes the ch ligature, even!
22:14:15 <pikhq> And CJK fonts? Give up now.
22:14:35 <pikhq> Well. Print fonts for CJK that are good are a dime a dozen.
22:14:36 <alise> Also the st ligature.
22:14:41 <pikhq> Screen fonts? Give up now.
22:14:41 <alise> They're both basically rubbish ligatures though.
22:14:46 <pikhq> Hinting is *hard*.
22:14:47 <alise> "Ooh, let's draw a halo."
22:14:56 <alise> pikhq: KANJI LIGATURES.
22:14:59 <AnMaster> <alise> Also the st ligature. <-- that looks awkward
22:15:15 <AnMaster> alise, and the ck ligature is just "wtf"
22:15:22 <alise> AnMaster: It's antique; good for gaols, for instance when setting a rime.
22:15:52 <AnMaster> "gaol - jail: a correctional institution used to detain persons who are in the lawful custody of the government (either accused persons awaiting trial or convicted persons serving a sentence)" <-- wtf?
22:16:00 <alise> The British English spelling for jail; now archaic but quite recently the preferred spelling.
22:16:11 <coppro> it's still used in some legal circles
22:16:14 <alise> For instance the OED preferred it in the 60s.
22:16:24 <alise> "Rime" the same, but for "rhyme".
22:16:26 <alise> AnMaster: Err, what?
22:16:28 <alise> I've made perfect sense.
22:16:35 <coppro> I got caught up when reading court documents and seeing someone sentenced to gaol time
22:16:38 <pikhq> That's one of the American English spellings that came about because of just settling on a different standard.
22:16:40 <alise> pikhq: Argh, what's the name of that typeface... Minlot or something...
22:16:41 <AnMaster> alise, how can you typeset a jail
22:16:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:16:50 <alise> AnMaster: you're retarded.
22:16:57 <alise> <alise> AnMaster: It's antique; good for gaols, for instance when setting a rime.
22:17:04 <alise> Good for gaols to use when typesetting a rime.
22:17:36 <AnMaster> alise, "good for jails to use when typesetting a rhyme"?
22:17:39 <pikhq> Calluna is gorgeous.
22:17:43 <alise> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minion_%28typeface%29
22:17:49 <alise> Minion's a good one.
22:17:55 <AnMaster> alise, or is there some idiom in there
22:18:19 <alise> AnMaster: Umm... if a jail wanted to typeset some rhyming poetry and print it to stick on the walls or something?
22:18:29 <alise> This isn't difficult.
22:18:39 <AnMaster> alise, sure... but that doesn't make much sense in the original context :P
22:18:57 <alise> AnMaster: I was using antique spellings to demonstrate the antiquity of the ck and st ligatures.
22:19:07 <pikhq> alise: http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/tallys.html If only this had italic.
22:19:49 <AnMaster> calamari, looks awesome in dejavu sans mono 9pt here :P
22:20:09 <calamari> btw the vga bios rom font is the best for coding ;)
22:20:09 <alise> pikhq: It /is/ slightly slanted.
22:20:15 <alise> pikhq: I find it's not very good for text, though (I tried).
22:21:21 <calamari> I'm sure that rom font is perfectly horrible, but I got used to it over the space of many years
22:22:19 -!- jillsmitt has joined.
22:22:49 <pikhq> Which is better coverage than almost every other font...
22:23:21 <coppro> sure, but it's just Not Enough
22:23:32 <coppro> (Of course, I keep Unifont installed as a fallback)
22:23:52 <pikhq> There should be a font covering all of Unicode.
22:23:54 <alise> pikhq: Gentium is quite decent, http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&cat_id=FontDownloadsGentium, but OpenType-only and therefore has cooties.
22:24:00 <alise> pikhq: As I said. Let's make one!
22:24:07 <alise> We could call it ShitFont.
22:24:10 <pikhq> alise: Ah, yeah. Gentium's nice.
22:24:11 <alise> It could be shitty but comprehensive.
22:24:26 <alise> In fact, it could be monospaced. For, say, if you wanted to make a grid of Unicode characters like in UniCode/Unikitten.
22:24:31 <pikhq> BTW, the nice thing about XeLaTeX is that you can use those OpenType fonts.
22:24:46 <alise> Also, Unifont is bitmapped.
22:24:53 <calamari> you could start it by combining some open source fonts
22:24:53 <pikhq> Yes, Unifont is bitmapped.
22:24:57 <alise> Oh, it was vectorised!
22:25:02 <alise> The font has subsequently been vectorised and converted to TrueType format[1][2] , and merged back the improvements to 20,000 CJK glyphs done by WenQuanYi Unibit font[3].
22:25:15 <pikhq> It was converted into squares.
22:25:28 <alise> [[GNU Unifont is a typography distributed in hexadecimal textual format, with support for more than 30000 characters. It is a "bitmap" typography whose characters can be of 8x8 or 8x16 pixels, according to its width.]]
22:25:32 <alise> [[Because of this, and because TrueType has become the used standard more for vectorial sources, it was necessary a version of this typography in Truetype format.]]
22:25:38 <alise> It's a typography, also available in vectorial format.
22:25:39 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:25:52 <calamari> you don't need to vectorize anymore.. ttf allows you to include bitmapped fonts in the ttf
22:30:09 <alise> http://www.emhsoft.com/singularity/
22:30:21 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:30:51 <alise> rms: rms M. Stallman
22:31:08 <AnMaster> <pikhq> There should be a font covering all of Unicode. <-- A lot of unicode is free space
22:31:45 <coppro> we'll put naughty doodles in that space
22:31:47 <Gregor> What an absurd response.
22:31:55 <Gregor> What an absurd response to an absurd response.
22:32:17 <AnMaster> also doesn't Bitstream Cyberbit cover most?
22:32:48 <alise> coppro: i love that idea
22:33:06 <coppro> ERROR: This Unicode is invalid. PENIS
22:33:09 <alise> "And here is unicode U+E8F9, 'VAGINA COMPOSED OF SMELL PENISES'."
22:33:47 <alise> U+E8FA: DILDO BEING INSERTED INTO URETHRA
22:34:05 <alise> U+E8FB: DEPICTION OF "69" SEXUAL ACT
22:34:11 <AnMaster> alise, better idea: make it just a lot of dashes that when put in a grid of the right dimensions form a huge naughty picture
22:34:17 <alise> just make a different naughty doodle for every single unallocated character
22:34:44 <AnMaster> alise, how many unallocated chars are there?
22:35:20 <AnMaster> alise, right, then my idea is more viable
22:35:25 <Gregor> I agree with alise 115%.
22:35:29 <alise> U+ABCDEF: ALPHABET RENDERED IN DEPICTIONS OF VARIOUS SEXUAL ACTS
22:35:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:35:58 <alise> the best thing about having the last char be goatse
22:36:04 <Gregor> The best letters in that block are of course L, G, B, T and Q.
22:36:07 <alise> is that on Mac OS X it's an Apple logo
22:36:24 <Ilari> There are only 17 planes of 65534 codepoints (except plane 0 which has some additional special codes that are not valid codepoints).
22:37:01 <Ilari> So last valid codepoint number is 0x10FFFD.
22:37:04 <alise> Gregor: I'm trying to get B to be a sexual act and failing terribly, unless it's something strange like "anus being eaten by formless slot in wall"
22:37:08 <coppro> don't forget the code points left deliberately unassigned
22:38:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, Bitstream Cyberbit doesn't support "most of Unicode".
22:38:12 <pikhq> Doesn't even get all of the BMP.
22:38:17 <coppro> U+10FFFE is a code point to
22:38:28 <Ilari> IIRC, it isn't valid.
22:38:53 <AnMaster> <coppro> don't forget the code points left deliberately unassigned <-- such as?
22:39:17 <AnMaster> there are surrogate pairs for UTF-16 and such iirc
22:39:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: They leave parts of blocks unassigned for future expansion.
22:39:25 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:39:30 <coppro> also they like blocks to be round number sizes
22:39:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes and there is also a private use area
22:39:33 <pikhq> For instance, the currency symbol block has about 20 characters unassigned.
22:39:35 <coppro> so a script may not occupy the full blcok
22:39:48 <AnMaster> coppro, powers of 10 or powers of two?
22:39:58 <Ilari> I think there are 2080 codepoints in range 0-10FFFD that aren't valid.
22:40:12 <coppro> also, then entirety of planes F and 10 are private use areas
22:40:16 <alise> huh, midori is part of xfce now
22:40:23 <alise> AnMaster: er right
22:40:24 <AnMaster> alise, powers of 16 would be... annoying
22:41:05 <coppro> Wikipedia says that 66 points are noncharacter code poitns
22:41:25 <pikhq> alise: The problem with creating a pan-Unicode font is one-fold.
22:41:32 <coppro> plus there's the two surrogate ranges
22:41:35 <pikhq> Chinese characters are hard.
22:41:43 <alise> pikhq: Meh. We can just do scribbles.
22:41:51 <coppro> and the private use areas (two planes + U+E000-U+F8FF)
22:41:55 <alise> pikhq: We can have it be sans-serif for easiness, and let it be bitmap for easiness.
22:42:04 <alise> And just doodle each character then make things slightly straighter.
22:42:26 <Ilari> (2048 characters for surrogates and 32 codepoints that are xFFFE or xFFFF.)
22:42:30 <pikhq> alise: There's 107,361 characters in Unicode. 70% of that is CJK.
22:42:39 <CakeProphet> just replace all the chinese characters with various American propaganda
22:43:19 <CakeProphet> you could have one of Abraham Lincoln assraping Mao Zedong.
22:43:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, the Chinese are hogging space then ;P
22:44:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: And there's room for 1,114,112 characters.
22:44:09 <alise> pikhq: Meh. We can do that.
22:44:21 <AnMaster> alise, another idea: combine various free fonts to get a decent "starting set" then do doodles for the rest
22:44:23 <alise> pikhq: Thank God for Han Unification :P
22:44:30 <alise> AnMaster: that's boring, that's what the OS does already
22:45:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, argh we need unicode2. 128 bits per char
22:45:09 <alise> with doodles, we can sustain the common theme of crap doodles.
22:45:34 <CakeProphet> alise: just add in like... Middle Earth script. And various other fantasy setting scripts.
22:45:43 <alise> pikhq: we could be lazy as fuck and have an ascii format where some special chars denote stems and stuff, so it could automatically make a true italic (not slanted)
22:45:53 <Ilari> Nah, just extend the space (like old versions of ISO-10646-1 had). Plenty more codepoints there.
22:45:59 <alise> pikhq: ooh, and have it interpolate vector curves from like < > \ /
22:46:03 <coppro> AnMaster: why do we need 128 bits for Unicode?
22:46:05 <alise> so we could have the world's worst vector font
22:46:21 <AnMaster> coppro, .. you didn't get the ip joke?
22:46:22 <alise> coppro: the post-singularity universal language
22:46:31 <alise> AnMaster: ... what?
22:46:33 <coppro> AnMaster: no, no I didn't
22:46:35 <alise> you really suck at making jokes
22:46:57 <alise> i think AnMaster thinks of something vaguely amusing in his head then tells us the conclusion without bothering to provide any other part of the joke.
22:46:58 <coppro> should have been Unicodev6
22:47:06 <coppro> alise: I do this all the time
22:47:15 <AnMaster> coppro, well it hasn't reached unicode4 yet
22:47:16 <coppro> Unicode 2 has come and gone
22:47:32 <alise> coppro: well, you're never completely inexplicable.
22:47:33 <AnMaster> coppro, I never heard any version number for unicode
22:47:34 <coppro> the most recent release was 5.2
22:47:35 <alise> AnMaster: we're up to unicode 5 dude
22:48:09 <pikhq> It may also be a pain encoding the other ideographic scripts in Unicode.
22:48:11 * coppro wants Tengwar to be approved
22:48:39 <AnMaster> I wonder what will happen when we run out of ipv4. How long is left? The economic down turn probably slowed it down a bit... but not much
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22:48:54 <coppro> what will happen is the world will panic for a little while
22:49:20 <coppro> then IPv6 will get 'announced' and people will pay far too much for stuff that supports it
22:49:25 <AnMaster> coppro, well I don't have native ipv6. My ISP has one block assigned
22:49:25 -!- wareya has joined.
22:49:54 <AnMaster> checked some looking glass thingy or whatever
22:50:05 <AnMaster> coppro, wait what? Computers already have it
22:50:13 <AnMaster> only my ADSL modem would need upgrading
22:50:34 <AnMaster> my ISP surely need to upgrade their stuff too, but not a lot of that
22:50:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: That wouldn't need upgrading.
22:50:50 <AnMaster> coppro, also the world should be panicing already
22:50:56 <pikhq> Your ADSL modem doesn't even know what IP is.
22:51:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, it does. It does NAT too
22:51:08 <coppro> but they won't until 6 months after we run out
22:51:25 <coppro> AnMaster: I'm talking about what will actually happen
22:51:41 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, we should be entirely on IPv6 by now.
22:51:58 <pikhq> But, unfortunately, it'll take longer than that.
22:51:59 <coppro> I already have IPv6 connectivity and, IIRC, my ISP allocates /32 blocks to individual houses or something like that
22:52:06 <coppro> AnMaster: I repeat what I said
22:52:27 <AnMaster> coppro, I have a nice and fast sixxs tunnel. I'll survive
22:52:32 <coppro> the big fun bit will be people complaining that <LAN game here> doesn't work
22:52:35 <AnMaster> a bit more tricky at university
22:52:35 <pikhq> When the management goes "We want new servers", and they get told "We can't without upgrading all of everything".
22:52:45 <pikhq> *Then* they'll start switching.
22:52:55 <coppro> that will be the #1 thing you hear about most, I assure you
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22:53:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, OSes already support ipv6
22:53:06 <pikhq> coppro: ... /32 blocks? */32 blocks*?!?!?
22:53:09 <pikhq> coppro: WHAT THE HELL.
22:53:16 <coppro> that's how much space IPv6 has
22:53:33 <Ilari> Aren't the usual site assignments /48?
22:53:37 <coppro> I'm thinking the other way around
22:53:48 <pikhq> Ilari: A usual individual assignment is a /64 block.
22:53:50 <Deewiant> It doesn't matter, it's lots either way
22:53:51 <pikhq> coppro: That's borken.
22:53:58 <coppro> I forget the exact number
22:54:09 <coppro> all I remember is 'way too big'
22:54:09 <pikhq> Individual users should be assigned /64s.
22:54:15 <alise> isn't the smallest ipv6 allocation being handed out enough to contain all of ipv4 and then some?
22:54:15 <coppro> okay, maybe that's it then
22:54:23 <alise> you'd think they'd learn from their past mistakes and use discretion.
22:54:26 <coppro> I don't recall specifically
22:54:28 <Ilari> /64 is assigned to individual LAN segment.
22:54:34 <alise> sure, maybe we have the space, but do you NEED those IPs? all of them?
22:54:38 <coppro> ok, then my ISP is giving out /64
22:54:43 <alise> also, we're doing fine on IPv4 because of NATs.
22:54:46 <coppro> on the plus side, LAN will hopefully die a nice death
22:54:47 <pikhq> alise: The point of /64 is to be able to have the other half of the IP address be the MAC address.
22:54:57 <alise> How big is /64 again?
22:55:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think I have a /48 from sixxs. Can't check from this computer
22:55:05 <alise> Also, that's an awful hack.
22:55:16 <AnMaster> plus sharing my block to rest of lan is completely broken
22:55:20 <pikhq> Also, that's how IPv6 autonegotiation works.
22:55:27 <AnMaster> <pikhq> 2^64-1. <-- -1? Signed?
22:55:43 <Ilari> IIRC, 2^64 as there are no reserved addresses.
22:55:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, 0 is the network address.
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22:55:49 <alise> That ... makes no sense as "signed".
22:55:53 <coppro> isn't 255 the gateway address, thus removing one more?
22:57:50 <coppro> query: what is the correct way to ask for a full DNS lookup and get a manual printout?
22:58:20 <AnMaster> coppro, but do you mean a zone transfer?
22:58:35 <alise> pikhq: Let's implement Xlib! Aiee.
22:58:48 <coppro> AnMaster: I just want to see all the records for a domain
22:58:53 <coppro> in human-readable format
22:59:08 <alise> coppro: "dig poop.com"
22:59:15 <AnMaster> coppro, zone transfer then. Pretty much forbidden by all dns servers for non-slave servers.
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22:59:33 <AnMaster> basically only slaves are allowed to do zone transfers from the master. That is all
22:59:46 <coppro> what's a zone transfer?
22:59:58 <AnMaster> coppro, dumping an entire domain basically
23:00:35 <AnMaster> coppro, you need that + some pretty printing. Though IMO the format of bind et al is pretty readable
23:00:45 <AnMaster> coppro, a zone could be less than a domain
23:00:51 <AnMaster> though domains are usually the zones
23:01:01 <AnMaster> coppro, also you could do a zone transfer on a tld
23:01:09 <AnMaster> coppro, so yes it makes perfect sense
23:01:39 <alise> coppro: just use dig
23:01:55 <coppro> I can list the record types I'm after
23:01:57 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, uh, coppro meant something totally different to what you meant
23:02:02 <alise> which is why you're being so confusing and obscure
23:02:14 <alise> he meant all records
23:02:17 <alise> not all records for all subdomains
23:02:30 <AnMaster> alise, then I misunderstood him
23:02:51 <AnMaster> it sounded like he meant a zone transfer to me
23:03:39 <AnMaster> https://www.sixxs.net/main/ <-- lovely, blue lines around linked images. You don't see that often nowdays on any page using css at all
23:04:13 <AnMaster> strange though.. I remembered it as more styled...
23:04:42 <alise> AnMaster: the css hasn't loaded for you
23:04:44 <alise> there are no such borders
23:04:52 <alise> or rather, parts of the css haven't loaded
23:04:55 <alise> say ones in @import
23:08:40 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DNS_record_types#SOA
23:09:01 <AnMaster> contains TTL amongst other things
23:09:34 * AnMaster sshs to a nameserver to check some stuff (bind, ugh, but not mine)
23:09:51 <AnMaster> (or rather, I didn't set it up, just have admin access to it)
23:11:01 <SgeoN1> Of 10 gb I finally managed to free, 6 are going to Visual Studio
23:11:39 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, why not download it from home instead
23:11:39 <alise> AnMaster: SgeoN1 is brain-addled by c#.
23:11:57 <SgeoN1> Download it from home?
23:12:13 <alise> i think he's only ircing via n1
23:12:29 <AnMaster> alise, I mean obviously over a phone would be expensive. But ADSL tends to be unlimited traffic
23:12:46 <alise> He isn't using his phone to download it.
23:13:04 <AnMaster> alise, then... what the fuck XD
23:13:13 <AnMaster> the gb stuff doesn't make ANY sense
23:13:14 <alise> IRCing via N1 for some reason I presume.
23:13:20 <alise> AnMaster: He didn't have much space on his computer.
23:13:31 <AnMaster> alise, then why the "free" bit
23:13:31 <alise> He freed 10 GiB of it, and is using 7 GiB for Visual Studio.
23:13:34 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:13:38 <alise> AnMaster: You're low on memory
23:13:40 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:13:43 <alise> What does this give you?
23:13:46 <AnMaster> alise, I thought free as in "free download"
23:13:54 <SgeoN1> I'm Jr downloading over n1
23:14:11 * AnMaster has over 2/3 of a TB unallocated
23:14:48 <alise> lvm2 is like headache in a kernel module.
23:15:00 <alise> I miss the simple life.
23:15:07 <AnMaster> alise, also most is user spacew
23:15:15 <AnMaster> alise, in the kernel it is just device mapper
23:15:41 <AnMaster> alise, basically the kernel gets a list of byte ranges to map into one device
23:16:02 <alise> AnMaster: LVM is quite complicated to set up, in fact I will say "bitch" -- do not disagree, compare installing normally to installing with lvm -- and maybe your favourite distro automates lvm setup but it won't be general, and crazy stuff is what lvm is for -- and its tools use obscure terminology, introducing like 500 terms just for precision
23:16:02 <AnMaster> the tricky stuff is all done in user space
23:16:17 <alise> basically it's dumping a whole alien world on yourself and really i'd much rather just deal with extra partitions, I am but a simple man.
23:16:25 <AnMaster> alise, dude I use arch. And lvm on top of software raid
23:16:37 <AnMaster> okay the learning curve is steep
23:16:44 <SgeoN1> I wonder if I'll free up a comparable amount by uninstalling VS2008
23:16:52 <alise> It's easier to learn to use both vim and Emacs well than to learn LVM.
23:16:55 <AnMaster> alise, but it is a wonderful bliss once you learnt the tools
23:16:58 <alise> Or at least when I tried I pretty much just cried.
23:17:16 <alise> AnMaster: Okay. I wager that your life is not significantly better than mine, or at least it won't be once I'm out of this mess.
23:17:26 <AnMaster> alise, you don't use all the options. I know what I use + a knowledge of what exists in what tool
23:17:28 <alise> I didn't go through the learning curve.
23:17:37 <pikhq> I spent a few days learning it.
23:17:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes it took no more than that for me either
23:17:47 <pikhq> Royal pain, but it was nice afterwards.
23:17:49 <alise> AnMaster: The option of LVM didn't exist way, way back and nobody particularly cried about it.
23:18:05 <alise> People need to stop having ideas. :P
23:18:19 <AnMaster> alise, yes drop haskell and everything. Lets go back to FORTRAN
23:18:20 <pikhq> And I use Gentoo; it is very much manual setup there.
23:18:26 <alise> coppro: NO STOP IT
23:18:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, about the same under arch
23:18:37 <alise> dreams too, no more dreams
23:18:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, no. We could've stopped with Lisp.
23:18:45 <alise> nelson mandela is the WORST PERSON EVER
23:18:47 <alise> also what pikhq said :P
23:18:51 <coppro> An idea where all sciences are equal...
23:19:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Is its installer "here's a shell"?
23:19:15 <alise> pikhq: Gentoo has an actual installer now ...
23:19:25 <pikhq> alise: No longer supported!
23:19:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, no but the installer has no clue about software raid or lvm
23:19:30 <SgeoN1> At least I'll get a chance to try F#
23:19:30 <AnMaster> so you need to do that yourself
23:19:44 <alise> AnMaster: installer did last i used it
23:20:05 <alise> AnMaster just said "yay" to "we no longer support installing without wanting to kill yourself".
23:20:09 <pikhq> alise: Because all the maintainers for it left.
23:20:11 <AnMaster> alise, well you need to set it up in advance and tell it to use specific parts
23:20:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, arch installer is ncurses based. Quite nice
23:20:49 <AnMaster> alise, because gentoo install is not tricky.
23:21:24 <pikhq> Stage1 and Stage2 are no longer supported.
23:21:46 <alise> AnMaster: so? there's no reason for people not to have an easier option
23:21:50 <alise> is stage3 the wimpy one or stage1?
23:21:56 <alise> which one involves compiling EVERY FUCKING THING
23:22:01 <pikhq> The primary reason for that is because, well. All the reasoning behind it was sheer bullshit.
23:22:16 <pikhq> alise: Stage3 is a functioning install in a tarball.
23:22:28 <alise> pikhq: It's no longer "compile everything"?!
23:22:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, emerge -e world solves the issue
23:22:34 <alise> What has Gentoo become?
23:22:46 <pikhq> Basically, you just need to install a few packages where there's multiple choices and write some config files.
23:23:14 <pikhq> And those tarballs are generated weekly.
23:23:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, also re-emerge stuff after changing useflags
23:23:18 <alise> god i remember booting up a gentoo livecd and going into #gentoo and going hey so is the stuff about a 24 hour install really true it isn't is it ha ha let's laugh at that
23:23:25 <alise> "Well... actually, yeah, it does take about 24 hours."
23:23:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, that often? Should try it out again in a chroot or vm
23:23:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, it's now an autogen'd tarball and live CD.
23:23:52 <AnMaster> alise, what? You didn't believe that?
23:24:01 <AnMaster> also it takes 6 hours on a fast computer
23:24:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm nice. Makes the rolling release even more rolling
23:24:20 <pikhq> Unless you want OpenOffice. :P
23:24:30 <pikhq> OpenOffice takes 2 fucking hours. Such pure shit.
23:24:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Thas not 64-bit.
23:24:39 <alise> why would you want openoffice
23:24:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, no open office takes 8 hours or such iirc
23:24:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe on YOUR system :P
23:24:55 <pikhq> alise: You wouldn't, but that's beside the point. :P
23:25:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: See, *this* is why you should upgrade.
23:25:11 <pikhq> Your computer is *6* *years* *old*.
23:25:26 <alise> "What would you like for breakfast?" "A shit sandwich, please!" "But that takes seven years to prepare! And it's made out of shit!" "Shit sandwich, please!"
23:25:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, not this one. About a year and a half.
23:25:33 <alise> AnMaster: oh come on, you have the money.
23:25:48 <alise> pikhq: Is that a contraction of "tee hee"?
23:25:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: Okay, yeah; that one should be faster.
23:26:03 <alise> AnMaster: a student from an upper-class family
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23:26:28 <pikhq> alise: Actually, try "a student from a land where college doesn't cost a year's pay".
23:26:58 <pikhq> Oh, wait. !US, hence only "university" is valid.
23:27:04 <alise> AnMaster: Your father is a professor and your mother is a journalist. And university is cheap in Europe. Unless the definition of class has changed recently, you're upper-class and you have enough money to buy a $200-$300 computer which would suck less.
23:27:20 <alise> pikhq: Well, "college" in the UK means "sixth form college", the education after "high school" from 16 to 18.
23:27:29 <AnMaster> alise, professors doesn't get as much money over here as they do in UK.
23:27:45 <alise> AnMaster: Well, nobody gets as much money in Sweden because of the tax.
23:27:53 <alise> I think journalists are pretty well-paid everywhere, though.
23:28:08 <alise> Okay, fair enough.
23:28:18 <alise> My robotic memory has failed me.
23:28:21 <AnMaster> not one of the big country ones
23:28:30 <alise> Snarky comment time: does anything in a local newspaper really count as "journalism"?
23:28:41 <alise> The Hexham Courant is the biggest waste of trees I've ever read.
23:28:47 <alise> And that covers a large area!
23:28:48 <AnMaster> though she told me she was offered a job at one of the big daily ones but didn't want to move so she said no
23:29:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: In the US "college" refers to any post-secondary education.
23:29:33 <pikhq> (except for schools which don't offer *degrees*, I should say.)
23:29:40 <alise> Current UK educational system:
23:29:41 <AnMaster> alise, to be fair, it was one of the better local ones.
23:30:01 <alise> Oh god, I'd better look up the ages.
23:30:18 <pikhq> Also, does anything in a *newspaper* really count as "journalism" any more?
23:30:31 <pikhq> I mean, those are freaking Murdoch rags now, right?
23:30:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, it did back then. Oh and we have two good country wide news papers here. US != rest of world when it comes to news paper
23:31:01 <AnMaster> at least not for any of the big ones
23:31:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Count your lucky stars that Murdoch is not in Sweden.
23:31:20 <pikhq> Murdoch single-handedly murders objective reporting.
23:31:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, we don't have walmart of radioshack either
23:32:07 <pikhq> I doubt you have the population layout for Walmart to function.
23:32:35 <alise> Reception: 4 to 5.
23:32:35 <alise> First school: 5 to 9.
23:32:35 <alise> Middle school: 9 to 13.
23:32:35 <alise> High school: 13 to 15.
23:32:36 <alise> Sixth form college: 16 to 18.
23:32:38 <alise> University: 18 to bearded and banana-eating.
23:32:40 <alise> Often, high school and sixth form are combined.
23:32:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I don't think we have starbucks but I could be wrong. None around here at least. Maybe in the big cities. *shrug*
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23:33:11 <alise> Nursery and reception are provided in the first school.
23:33:34 <alise> In the old, two-tier system, primary school = first school and half of high school, secondary school = second half of high school and sixth form.
23:33:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, we have ICA, Lidels, IKEA, KF and some other ones
23:33:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: How many places have both a decent population density and the room for a store that takes up 9,476.1 m^2, not counting the freaking gigantic parking lot, in Sweden?
23:33:51 <AnMaster> probably only Lidels (German in origin) and IKEA are known outside
23:33:57 <pikhq> That's the *average* size, BTW.
23:34:14 <pikhq> That's the average size of the "discount stores".
23:34:44 <alise> AnMaster: PRODUCTS. MORE PRODUCTS.
23:34:54 <AnMaster> plus I have no concept of how large 18,301.9 m² actually is
23:34:55 <alise> Lidel? Is that how you Swedish spell Lidl?
23:35:04 <alise> LIDL are immoral, btw.
23:35:04 <AnMaster> alise, no, it is how I typod it :P
23:35:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: They have just about everything.
23:35:16 <AnMaster> alise, and yes they are known as being immoral here too
23:35:22 <alise> AnMaster: You have Aldi, I know that.
23:35:26 <alise> Aldi are like Lidl except not immoral.
23:35:43 <alise> Okay, you don't have Aldi.
23:36:09 <alise> AnMaster: Basically like Lidl: everything own-brand discount supermarket. But nicer.
23:36:10 <AnMaster> alise, we have pretty much our own chains. Lidl is running at a loss in Sweden iirc.
23:36:38 <alise> Except for their crazy tax dodges.
23:36:39 <pikhq> Supermarket, garden center, pet shop, pharmacy, tire & oil changing, glasses, photo lab, portrait studio, and a random assortment of other seperate shops in the store.
23:36:43 <AnMaster> well and that is the only one known outside Sweden iirc
23:36:48 <pikhq> Often including a McDonalds and a *bank*.
23:36:48 <alise> Owned by a foundation owned by a charity and crossing many countries...
23:36:57 <alise> But the stores themselves are nice.
23:36:58 <pikhq> Some Walmarts are also gas stations.
23:37:08 <AnMaster> we also have Burger King and Max
23:37:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: I don't think you get it. McDonalds *inside the store*.
23:37:18 <alise> But in your supermarkets?
23:37:28 <pikhq> *These are all commonly in Walmarts*.
23:37:44 <AnMaster> Max is from northen Sweden iirc. There is no McDonalds in north of Gävle iirc. They run at a loss north of there. Max all the way above
23:38:08 <AnMaster> alise, in shopping centres yes. Not sure about supermarkets
23:38:20 <AnMaster> super markets tend to be in the form of shopping centres here
23:38:39 <AnMaster> can't say I have seen any non-shopping centre supermarket
23:38:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Okay, okay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Walmart.JPG This is a *teensy* Walmart.
23:39:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, looks quite small indeed. Hard to tell how large the building is
23:39:57 <pikhq> It's a bit smaller than the parking lot.
23:40:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, IKEA can be that big here
23:40:39 <pikhq> As big as that Walmart?
23:41:42 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:IKEA,_Chicago_%28Schaumburg%29.jpg
23:42:12 <pikhq> Hmm. BTW, there's some 2,737 Wal-Marts Supercenters in the US.
23:43:07 * pikhq tries to find a similar aerial photo of a walmart
23:43:31 <pikhq> http://www.redwingaerials.com/images/740_MKT_LAREDO_IMG_5955.jpg Here's one in Texas.
23:44:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, maye twice the size of that IKEA?
23:44:22 <pikhq> The gas station there is *also* Walmart.
23:44:58 <pikhq> And these things are everywhere. Freaking everywhere.
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23:51:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have been unable to find any data on average IKEA sizes
23:52:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, only thing I have been able to find is that: 9300 m² was tried as a small format but turned out to be unsucessful
23:59:02 <AnMaster> "Clang currently implements all of the ISO C++ 1998 standard (including the defects addressed in the ISO C++ 2003 standard) except for 'export' (which has been removed from the C++'0x draft)." <-- whaaat when did that happen
23:59:33 <pikhq> They removed it because *everyone* refused to implement it. ;)
23:59:34 <AnMaster> "However, the implementation of Clang C++ is still somewhat immature, with remaining bugs that may cause compiler crashes, erroneous errors and warnings, " <-- right
23:59:55 <AnMaster> "or miscompiled code" got lost there somehow
00:00:14 <coppro> miscompiled code can happen, but it's rare
00:00:19 <pikhq> They're discussing the freaking source-control version of Clang.
00:00:34 <pikhq> coppro: Clang 2.7 currently miscompiles computed gotos.
00:00:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: The one they have in their repos.
00:00:47 <pikhq> Clang 2.7 doesn't support all of C++.
00:01:20 <AnMaster> I tend to use gcc because it is shorter to type and out of habit
00:01:46 <pikhq> I suggest using "make" for building programs.
00:01:59 <pikhq> If it's a one-file program, you don't even need a Makefile!
00:02:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but writing CC = clang or just leaving that line out
00:02:13 <pikhq> Dude, CC is in my .zshrc.
00:02:19 <pikhq> As are CFLAGS and LDFLAGS...
00:02:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, that breaks lots of things
00:02:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, I used to have CFLAGS in my .bashrc
00:02:39 <AnMaster> gave up because it broke various strange apps
00:02:41 <pikhq> ... Things... Break... On CFLAGS?
00:02:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes CFLAGS="-march=native -pipe -O2" iirc
00:02:58 <pikhq> Either your CFLAGS suck ass or you should not ever ever ever ever ever ever ever touch those programs.
00:03:15 <pikhq> Do not ever ever ever ever evere ever ever ever ever touch those programs.
00:03:32 <pikhq> Whoever wrote them was probably drunk and less intelligent than the average doorknob.
00:03:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, I blame gcc for this. However cfunge does not support gcc 4.5.0, miscompilation and haven't been able to pin point a minimal test case.
00:04:14 <pikhq> -O3 is a compilation option that breaks pretty much all not-strictly-conformant code.
00:04:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't think someone writing a cycle accurate x86 emulator could be that drunk. Or that dumb.
00:04:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: If it doesn't build with -O2 -pipe -march, *you are that fucking dumb*.
00:04:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but I'm pretty sure gcc messes up on some static inline with restrict pointers
00:05:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, also what about qemu? It used to need gcc 3.x
00:05:24 <pikhq> That used a metric fuckton of crazy shit.
00:05:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, yet it isn't dumb as such
00:05:43 <pikhq> Self-modifying code exempts you from my claim of stupidity.
00:06:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, that cycle accurate emulator was self modifying. And doing hacks to get into 32-bit mode from user space under a 64-bit linux app and what not
00:06:20 <pikhq> If you're doing self-modifying code, you are perfectly justified in demanding a specific compiler with specific CFLAGS. Because that's just that damned hard to do on multiple compilers.
00:06:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Okay, why is it needing self-modifying code for *cycle accurate emulation*?
00:07:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, it did cycle accurate for only bits. That is you could select to only do that for some functions
00:07:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, also there is a variant integrating with Xen for whole-system profiling
00:07:24 <pikhq> That's not a cycle accurate emulator.
00:07:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, but for speeding up you can select doing only bits
00:07:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, since it is for profiling purposes mostly
00:08:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, it makes sense for that
00:08:07 <pikhq> That's not a fekking cycle accurate emulator.
00:08:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, _it is by default emulating a superscalar x86_ _cycle accurately_
00:08:49 <pikhq> It is an emulator which happens to have a cycle accurate mode.
00:08:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, the cycle accurate mode is default
00:08:58 <pikhq> And thus possesses a cycle accurate emulator.
00:09:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is a cycle accurate emulator that happens to possess a fast-forward
00:09:43 <pikhq> And when it fast-forwards all pretensions of accuracy go the hell away.
00:10:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, but since it is meant for profiling I think there is good reason to do this anyway
00:10:32 * pikhq beats AnMaster with a smart stick
00:10:36 <pikhq> WHY WONT YOU SMART BECOME
00:11:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, and unless you are doing the Xen thing it will be user space only. Which means that system calls will be left to the OS
00:11:31 <pikhq> ... Waitwaitwait. It only emulates userspace?
00:12:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, again there are two versions. The user space one. And the one that integrates with Xen.
00:12:03 <pikhq> Gah, it's only doing the easy stuff.
00:12:11 <pikhq> Only doing the easy stuff.
00:12:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, you fail so hard at reading
00:12:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, the one integrating with Xen do all the heavy work
00:12:55 <pikhq> Really? It emulates the bizarre, fucking-nuts IBM PC hardware?
00:13:19 <pikhq> Or does it translate Xen hypercalls through to Xen?
00:13:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh it isn't emulating perpherials like original IBM PC. It is not doing i386 for fucks sake
00:13:30 <AnMaster> the oldest one it can do still has SSE
00:13:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, because they completely don't care about older
00:13:49 <AnMaster> it emulates super scalar by default
00:13:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: So, it's not emulating a full computer, but only passing Xen hypercalls through?
00:13:59 <pikhq> It's *only doing the easy stuff*.
00:14:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't know the details. It does all the CPU and MMU stuff I know
00:14:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, since that is what it is meant to emulate
00:14:46 <pikhq> So, yeah. It's doing the easy stuff.
00:15:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, valgrind doesn't emulate a keyboard controller. Does that mean it fail at it's task? No
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00:16:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is not meant to emulate games for god's sake. It is too slow for that. It is meant for accurate profiling. I used it to find that using HugeTLB would not be of any major benefit to cfunge
00:17:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, you see. I profile before I optimise :P
00:17:13 <pikhq> So, it's meant for crazy people who believe in optimisation over readability.
00:17:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, just stop trolling now :)
00:17:39 <pikhq> The question you should ask before optimising is "is it fast enough", not "is it the WORLDS FASTEST".
00:17:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, That Depends. On your goals
00:18:11 <pikhq> Good code or 1337 code? Yeah.
00:18:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, no being the fastest in the world is fun
00:18:54 <AnMaster> I would never spell it like that
00:19:46 <pikhq> Laik, yur codz r fast. 1337.
00:20:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, also what about INTERCAL
00:20:52 <pikhq> INTERCAL is motherfucking nuts.
00:21:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, don't you love INTERCAL still?
00:21:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, otherwise why the heck are you in this channel
00:21:19 <pikhq> It's just motherfucking nuts.
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00:41:19 <alise> pikhq: AnMaster will never understand that using jokes to justify insane reality doesn't work; don't bother
00:42:09 <alise> Anyway, goodnight.
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00:45:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, you write lambdas in C. You should complain about 1337 C code :P
00:45:29 <AnMaster> if that is what you like to call it
00:46:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: I do not advocate this as good code.
00:47:00 <pikhq> I advocate it as being absolutely stark raving mad.
00:47:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never advocated cfunge as good code
00:47:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, my other C code is nothing like that
00:47:41 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is that cfunge is not good code?
00:48:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is worse code than cfunge though
00:49:26 <AnMaster> if it wasn't fun I wouldn't have done cfunge
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02:52:09 <CakeProphet> What option gives all users read/write access to a mountpoint in fstab?
02:55:54 <CakeProphet> for some reason even though I have rw and user options I can't write to my ipod. :P
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06:50:06 <zzo38> I found a license called "Free World Licence". It is not a open source license. I also believe it is not a free software license, although they claim it is. I looked at it and it is full of problems.
06:50:13 <zzo38> It sometimes contradicts itself.
06:50:20 <zzo38> It is not compatible with itself.
06:50:31 <zzo38> It requires internet if you want to use it.
06:50:43 <zzo38> Anyone that modifies the software must have email.
06:53:00 <zzo38> And if you write an operating system using this license, it would be illegal to execute any software on it.
06:56:40 <zzo38> I do not recomend using this license except for experimental purposes (at least it does allow conversion to GNU GPL by the original licensor).
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07:03:52 <Sgeo> The original licensor should always be able to apply whatever license e wants
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11:11:23 <Sgeo> Why am I awake?
11:17:07 <wareya> Today I learned that I can't use tor nodes to connect to espernet.
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14:58:53 <alise> I have all these plans for Yak but no starting point...
15:00:51 <ais523> hmm, I wanted to link oklopol to this, but I can't find him, so I'll link the whole channel instead: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lorch/personal/self-ref.html
15:00:57 <ais523> it's a self-referential quiz
15:01:04 <alise> ais523: we've talked about it
15:01:06 <ais523> where almost all the questions ask what the answer to other questions is
15:01:12 <ais523> what was the conclusion of the discussion?
15:01:18 <alise> ais523: i'm curious: what do you think #20's answer is?
15:01:27 <alise> but I wonder what you think it is
15:01:38 <alise> ais523: shall I tell you? It's funny, actually.
15:01:54 <alise> ais523: (There are solutions that do not depend on #20 being correct, so this isn't a "spoiler".)
15:01:54 <ais523> you may as well tell me
15:02:07 <ais523> yep, I know, it says as much in the header
15:02:29 <alise> #20 is E. Ignorant people think standardised tests measure intelligence, ignorant people think barometers measure all of the weather (which is the combination of all the aspects listed above E).
15:02:32 <alise> Therefore the answer is E.
15:02:51 <ais523> that was one of the suggestions on reddir
15:02:59 <ais523> although someone else pointed out that E was self-contradictory
15:03:01 <alise> I'm 99.99% certain it was the author's intention.
15:03:09 <alise> ais523: only because of extreme pedanticism of (only)
15:03:11 <ais523> in that it's only A && only B && only C && only D
15:03:18 <alise> the point is that if you pick a non-E answer it's only that
15:04:07 <alise> ais523: I was going to do it with prolog but realised it'd be a bit of a bitch what with the question that involves primality or being divisible by 5 or whatever
15:04:08 <ais523> thinking about it, temperature and latitude affect the barometer's output directly; wind velocity is caused by a pressure /gradient/ and so is affected by what the barometer measures, but doesn't affect it directly; and latitude is irrelevant to the barometer's output
15:04:27 <alise> ais523: of course, but that's irrelevant
15:04:33 <alise> standardised tests /don't/ measure intelligence, obviously
15:04:40 <ais523> alise: not that much, 20 questions is small enough to just go prime(2), prime(3), prime(5), etc
15:04:46 <alise> they measure memorisation skills and ability to please pre-written answer shets
15:04:46 <ais523> and do arithmetic the good old Prolog way
15:05:00 <alise> ais523: therefore it isn't asking what barometers measure
15:05:09 <alise> it's asking what people wrongly think barometers measure
15:05:14 <ais523> alise: at primary school, I was given lessons whose only purpose is to teach us how to do well on IQ tests
15:05:15 <alise> which is the weather
15:05:21 <alise> therefore the answer is E
15:05:30 <ais523> I disagree with "weather = A+B+C+D"
15:05:37 <alise> well, ok, but /most people/
15:05:40 <alise> think weather = A+B+C+D
15:05:58 <ais523> temperature, wind velocity, latitude, longitude = weather?
15:06:05 <ais523> I'd think things like precipitation type would matter just as much
15:06:06 <alise> well, er, okay, i said it wrong
15:06:12 <alise> what i'm saying is
15:06:25 <AnMaster> ais523, yes METAR tends to contain a lot more
15:06:29 <ais523> and latitude and longitude influence the weather, but are hardly, in of themselves, weather
15:06:30 <alise> the whole snarkiness is "barometers measure longitude as much as standardised tests measure intelligence" and s/longitude/all the other options/
15:06:46 <ais523> well, I get they were trying to make a point along those lines
15:06:51 <alise> the whole thing is a sarcastic blight against standardised tests, and it specifically mentions "disagreeing with me" on #20, suggesting it isn't a "factual" answer
15:07:00 <alise> ais523: also, E is definitely correct; the answers spell a sentence
15:07:05 <alise> iff the last answer is E
15:07:17 <ais523> but ofc, due to the Earth not being spherical, a barometer in a suitable enclosure can be used to measure altitude
15:07:20 <AnMaster> METAR LBBG 041600Z 12003MPS 310V290 1400 R04/P1500N R22/P1500U +SN BKN022 OVC050 M04/M07 Q1020 NOSIG 9949//91=
15:07:29 <ais523> wait, put the qualifier on the wrong sentence
15:07:29 <AnMaster> ais523, that is an example metar, it is explained on wikipedia
15:07:45 <ais523> a barometer in a suitable enclosure can be used to measure altitude
15:07:51 <alise> ais523: as for what Yak is, Yak Linux is the Yet New Name for my Linux distro
15:07:56 <alise> with its Yet New Design
15:07:59 <ais523> and thus, if you're at sea-level, due to the earth not being spherical you can use altitude to measure latitude
15:08:10 <alise> it runs from RAM -> Ram Linux -> what's an animal amongst friends? -> Yak Linux -> "comes pre-shaven"
15:08:16 <alise> (because it's minimal because it runs from RAM)
15:08:58 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it is called an altimeter then
15:09:23 <ais523> my point is that in theory, you can measure latitude with a barometer
15:09:35 <ais523> presumably you could use the Bernoulli effect to measure wind speed with a barometer, too
15:10:33 <alise> barometers can also measure libido, blood pressure and heart bpm
15:11:05 <ais523> hmm, this reminds me of an old puzzle I heard
15:11:17 <ais523> which was "how do you measure the height of a clock tower, using only a barometer?"
15:11:26 <ais523> the interesting thing about it was that there were multiple stated "right answers"
15:11:51 <alise> nobody likes my barometer measuring bars pun :(
15:11:55 <alise> i am so sad i could cry forever.
15:12:11 <ais523> alise: oh, I didn't realise it was a pun
15:12:16 <ais523> after all, bars is a common unit of air pressure
15:12:24 <alise> yeah i guess it's not that punny
15:12:26 <ais523> and so I thought it was just a factual description
15:12:31 <alise> not punny, alise, not punny
15:12:34 <alise> stop trying to be punny
15:12:38 <alise> get it, punny is like funny
15:12:48 <ais523> alise: you are turning into AnMaster, stop it
15:13:44 <AnMaster> alise, don't feel sad about it. You are approaching a higher level of humour
15:13:53 <ais523> any suggested solutions for the clock tower problem, anyway?
15:14:03 <alise> ais523: Anyway, Yak is inspired by Tiny Core Linux, which has a terminal, a graphical package manager and the standard set of command-line utilities running on X11 in a 10 MiB ISO. And it uses *glibc*!
15:14:09 <AnMaster> ais523, measure pressure at ground and at top
15:14:16 <alise> AnMaster: i don't think anyone in the universe would call your sense of humour higher than ... anyone
15:14:24 <AnMaster> ais523, then use whatever formula you sue for it
15:14:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I forgot what that one is
15:14:32 <ais523> AnMaster: that's probably the simplest, but it's incredibly inaccurate
15:15:02 <ais523> the stated answer(s) I saw to the problem started with that one, the least accurate on their list, and got progressively more accurate as time went on
15:15:10 <alise> ais523: request a barometer with helicopter blades, get a really big tape measure, fly up holding one end
15:15:16 <AnMaster> ais523, okay. measure length of barometer, then measure how many multiples of barometers the clock tower height is
15:15:34 <ais523> alise: that wasn't actually a stated answer
15:15:41 <alise> ais523: whyever not? :D
15:15:52 <ais523> AnMaster: given that clock towers tend not to be straight, your answer won't work as is
15:15:58 <ais523> there is an answer that works along those lines, though
15:16:13 <AnMaster> ais523, oh that varies. I have seen both straight and non-straight ones
15:16:24 <ais523> at least, the one in this puzzle was apparently attached to a building
15:16:36 <ais523> every clock tower I've seen has been narrower at the top than at the bottom, though
15:16:48 <alise> ais523: I can middle-click but not right-click with a trackpad press (not button); explain this
15:16:53 <alise> middle-click is top-right hand corner of trackpad
15:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, yes they tend to have non-flat roof
15:17:20 <alise> and clicking links with the top-right hand corner seems to do nothing, suggesting it's "button 4"
15:17:34 <alise> right click is bottom-right hand corner
15:17:38 <alise> now why do i have a button 4? explain this
15:17:50 <AnMaster> alise, your trackpad have 4 corners
15:17:54 <alise> and how can i set button 4 = right click?
15:17:58 <alise> the bottom-right corner is awkward to press
15:18:02 <ais523> alise: button 4 is mouse wheel scroll upwards
15:18:13 <alise> ais523: except not, apparently
15:18:19 <alise> fuck it, i'm just going to try xev to see wtf is going on
15:18:53 <AnMaster> I have a 4 button mouse. + scroll up/down and tilt left/right
15:19:08 <AnMaster> so left, right, middle, on-the-left-side
15:19:11 <alise> bottom-right hand: right click
15:19:17 <alise> top-right hand: middle click
15:19:26 <alise> anywhere else on trackpad: regular click
15:19:31 <alise> move hand up and down right side: scroll
15:19:46 <alise> now explain why top-left isn't right click
15:19:55 <alise> bottom-right is inconvenient because you can't rest your hands on the laptop while pressing it
15:19:57 <alise> since it's too far down
15:20:05 <alise> top-right: right click
15:20:07 <alise> top-left: middle click
15:20:13 <alise> anyone know where to configure this stuff?
15:20:25 <AnMaster> alise, I never heard of a trackpad doing it like this at all
15:20:40 <alise> I don't know; would dmesg tell me?
15:21:01 <alise> It's probably one of the two; it's a decent laptop.
15:21:10 <alise> In fact it's better than ThinkPads, nyah. :P
15:21:23 <AnMaster> alise, I use my trackpoint on my thinkpad :P
15:21:34 <AnMaster> alise, anyway what laptop model is it then?
15:21:35 <alise> AnMaster: Touche. The rest of the laptop is superior, though :P
15:21:43 <alise> Toshiba T133 or something.
15:21:56 <AnMaster> alise, does it have a magnisium roll cage? matte screen?
15:22:21 <alise> Actually, it has the perfect screen: it's technically glossy, which means you can use it outside perfectly, but the backlight is so good that you never see reflections when theres a picture on, even black.
15:22:44 <AnMaster> alise, sounds like it bleeds through then
15:22:54 <alise> It's silent, incredibly light (really, really light), has a long battery life, looks as slick as a MacBook, has 4 GiB of RAM, a fast but silent hard drive, the fan almost never goes on...
15:23:01 <alise> And it's cheap compared to a ThinkPad!
15:23:03 <AnMaster> alise, light laptop = easier to steal
15:23:08 <alise> ThinkPad: £1,000. This: £475.
15:23:23 <AnMaster> also I prefer the thinkpad look compared to macbooks
15:23:31 <AnMaster> slab of black >> white thin thingy
15:23:34 <alise> Sure, it has a 1.3GHz Core 2 Duo, but actually it's faster than my other computers.
15:23:37 <alise> AnMaster: It's not thin and white.
15:23:48 <AnMaster> alise, my thinkpad has a 2.26 GHz Core 2 Duo
15:23:48 <alise> It's actually crimsony red, though it comes in other colours.
15:23:52 <alise> And it's thin, but quite slabby.
15:24:01 <alise> AnMaster: Indeed. And it's probably not as fast as this.
15:24:04 <alise> Why? I don't know.
15:24:10 <AnMaster> and fan is usually never on or on at so low speed you can't hear it
15:24:10 <alise> It seems magical. I'm not sure what makes it so fast.
15:24:30 <alise> Seriously, this thing feels like a top-of-the-line Core 2.
15:24:37 <alise> ais523 has the 11 inch version of it.
15:24:47 <alise> AnMaster: My screen is higher dpi than yours :P 118 ppi
15:25:05 <AnMaster> alise, yeah and? it means bitmap games are even more painful :P
15:25:09 <alise> 1336x768 on 13". Yeah, too small for you, but I like it. The screen may be quite small but it has enough resolution to have a bunch of windows on the go.
15:25:14 <alise> AnMaster: Scale it 2x. :P
15:25:39 <alise> Anyway, this laptop is amazing and I love it, so nyah.
15:25:47 <alise> And it doesn't have that weird thing your ThinkPad has that you made that page about.
15:26:01 <AnMaster> alise, I love large monitors. That is why I have a huge desktop monitor that I'm using atm
15:26:12 <alise> I could use a huge desktop monitor too.
15:26:20 <AnMaster> alise, oh that page? just firmware upgrade tool
15:26:26 <alise> Anyway, both me AND ais523 like this (his the smaller version), and only YOU like yours.
15:26:45 <alise> AnMaster: I don't have to upgrade my SATA firmware. :P
15:26:49 <AnMaster> alise, okay it doesn't work like that. I know several other people using R500 and loving them
15:27:04 <alise> But they're not in here, and you talk to them so they're probably stupid!
15:27:11 <alise> My logic is infallible. Do not argue.
15:27:14 <AnMaster> alise, also magnesium roll cage
15:27:25 <alise> AnMaster: That means it's harder to destroy in case you need to.
15:27:36 <alise> Also, it's easier to steal without you destroying it first.
15:27:40 <alise> My keyboard has 0 flex too.
15:27:49 <AnMaster> alise, how do you mean easier to steal?
15:28:07 <alise> Well, if it was weaker you could destroy it before someone managed to get it out of your hands!
15:28:15 <alise> It's about as reasonable as your "lighter is easier to steal" complaint.
15:28:24 <alise> On a more serious note it's sturdy.
15:28:32 <alise> Anyway, you still paid tons more than I did. :P
15:28:32 <AnMaster> alise, yes but my lighter is easier to steal was followed by ";P"
15:28:44 <alise> Yeah, my jokes are good enough not to need indicators. >_>
15:29:05 <AnMaster> alise, and so did you for your iphone compared to my nokia
15:29:09 <alise> Currently what I paid for it is 5,337 SEK, but god knows what that was at the time. Financial meltdown fun!
15:29:23 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, but my iPhone can do more shit. Also, it was the only phone that COULD do that shit at the time.
15:29:26 <alise> Other smartphones are newer.
15:30:27 <alise> AnMaster: How about this? Its screen is so good that even freetype's awful slightly-hinted subpixel rendering (with the SUPER ILLEGAL patent patch) is /beautiful/.
15:30:38 <alise> Literally. The subpixels are invisible without a magnifying glass. Even for you.
15:30:50 <alise> So ... on a more interesting note ...
15:34:25 <alise> ais523: do you ever get the issue whre after typing a key your trackpad stops moving?
15:34:31 <alise> move with trackpad, hit key, trackpad stops
15:34:56 <ais523> alise: yes, it's deliberate IIRC
15:35:05 <ais523> because it's so easy to knock the trackpad by accident while typing
15:35:45 <Ilari> Wow: "-rw------- 1 Ilari users 828831888 Jul 18 17:12 .xsession-errors".
15:36:03 <alise> Ilari: Jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick.
15:36:06 <alise> What did you DO to poor X11?
15:36:15 <alise> ais523: So, say you were assembling a Linux distro. Where would you start?
15:37:01 <ais523> it seems unlikely that I'd spend time making a Linux distro
15:37:11 <alise> But presuming you did.
15:37:12 <ais523> alise: I don't see how you can have a "super illegal patent patch" for software
15:37:18 <ais523> this is the UK, there are no software patents here
15:37:25 <ais523> and arguably it's unenforceable even in the US
15:37:26 <alise> ais523: it enables the patented-by-Apple subpixel rendering
15:37:30 <alise> but Ubuntu enable it
15:37:32 <alise> and Ubuntu are US-based
15:37:37 <alise> therefore Ubuntu are breaking the law
15:37:38 <ais523> alise: Ubuntu are not US-based
15:37:42 <alise> ais523: Canonical are
15:37:51 <alise> Canonical owns Ubuntu
15:37:56 <alise> therefore Ubuntu must obey US law
15:38:06 <ais523> I'm pretty sure they're European
15:38:26 <alise> Isle of Man, would you believe it
15:39:02 <ais523> must be some complicated business reason to incorporate there
15:39:24 <ais523> also, have you seen /In re Proudler/?
15:39:44 <ais523> it was the first software patent case to be tried in the US after /In re Bilski/ was judged
15:39:55 <ais523> and it rejected the patent for being an abstract idea
15:40:00 <ais523> citing Bilski as a reference
15:40:24 <ais523> thus, it seems that software patents are already having difficulty being enforced in the US, as of a few weeks ago
15:41:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:41:39 <AnMaster> <alise> move with trackpad, hit key, trackpad stops <-- if ubuntu check mouse settings
15:42:13 <AnMaster> I disabled it since it broke completely turning off touchpad with Fn-Fx (whatever, thinkpad is not near here atm
15:42:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
15:43:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:43:18 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Wow: "-rw------- 1 Ilari users 828831888 Jul 18 17:12 .xsession-errors". <-- 828 MB?
15:43:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:43:42 <AnMaster> wait, that should be 790 I think
15:44:12 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
15:44:17 <AnMaster> Definition: mega B = 8000000 bit
15:44:31 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been trying to track down a problem with the webmail at the university
15:44:40 <ais523> because there's something really dodgy about its https certificate
15:45:20 <ais523> there's no chain-of-trust from it; it claims to have been signed by "TERENA SSL CA" but doesn't have their signature on it
15:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, at least it isn't like the Door any more
15:45:30 -!- alise has joined.
15:45:32 <ais523> I checked Terena's website; they exist, but don't provide certificates directly
15:45:40 <ais523> but rather certificates signed by Comodo, who /are/ a genuine rot CA
15:45:44 <alise> <alise> ais523: is that // functioning as citealics? heh
15:45:45 <alise> <alise> "The battle system is a battle system. [...] You can save the game if you want sometimes. [...] The videogame has graphics and sound. The graphics are seen with your eyes and the sound is heard by your ears. When you start the game the graphics and the sound will occur almost at the same time, letting you know that the game has started. There is also text which players can read. [...] If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and like it, then you like Final Fa
15:45:46 <ais523> yes, very what the fuck
15:45:47 <alise> <alise> II. If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and don't like it, then you don't like Final Fantasy XIII. It has things in it that some people might enjoy but other people who have different ideas of what is enjoyable may not actually enjoy it. [...] In conclusion, Final Fantasy XIII is a videogame." --100% Objective Review: Final Fantasy XIII, Destructoid; http://www.destructoid.com/100-objective-review-final-fantasy-xiii-179178.phtml
15:45:52 <alise> what have I missed?
15:46:01 <alise> whoa, ais523 swearing, must be serious
15:46:11 <ais523> alise: it's a quoteswear
15:46:26 <ais523> I have no compunctions against swearing when quoting someone else
15:46:47 <AnMaster> "II. If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and don't like it, then you don't like Final Fantasy XIII. It has things in it that some people might enjoy but other people who have different ideas of what is enjoyable may not actually enjoy it." <-- zzo?
15:47:07 <alise> AnMaster: Well, the whole point is to be literal and factual and precise all the way through.
15:47:21 <ais523> <ais523> meanwhile, I've been trying to track down a problem with the webmail at the university <ais523> because there's something really dodgy about its https certificate <ais523> there's no chain-of-trust from it; it claims to have been signed by "TERENA SSL CA" but doesn't have their signature on it <ais523> I checked Terena's website; they exist, but don't provide certificates directly <ais523> but rather certificates signed by Comodo, who /are/
15:47:47 * alise tries to formulate a way to make ais523 damn another person
15:48:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:49:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society haha awesome
15:49:16 <alise> "Let's go out into international waters and BEAT THE FUCK UP some whalers."
15:49:31 <alise> they're like the batman of anti-whalers
15:51:07 <alise> "Sea Shepherd has responded by stating that its actions constitute enforcement of international maritime law under the United Nations World Charter for Nature."
15:51:45 <ais523> AnMaster: any ideas as to what's going on? do you think someone's trying to MitM me
15:51:56 <ais523> and if so, why would they go for a relatively obscure webmail service?
15:52:04 <ais523> that only serves on University?
15:52:22 <alise> ais523: no. nobody is trying to mitm you
15:52:22 <ais523> alternatively, the University IT staff went and bought a bogus certificate and didn't even test it
15:52:25 <alise> your university is just incompetent
15:52:33 <ais523> alise: I agree that a MitM seems unlikely
15:52:39 <ais523> as it would just be far too specific to make sense
15:52:45 <alise> hmm, AnMaster supporting a non-pacifist group
15:52:47 <alise> I think that's a new one.
15:53:05 <ais523> I can sort-of understand a student deciding to hack into the University and steal everyone's passwords, though
15:53:08 <ais523> at least it would explain the target
15:53:26 <ais523> I can also just about believe that the IT staff bought a bogus certificate and didn't even test it before putting it online
15:53:28 <AnMaster> ais523, contact the IT staff and ask them about it
15:53:36 <alise> ais523: but the student would have to have bought a certificate
15:53:40 <alise> which is bad anyway
15:53:43 <alise> why not just fake one?
15:53:50 <ais523> the cert isn't signed by a root CA, or anyone else for that matter
15:53:56 <ais523> it could be a self-signed cert with Terena's name on it
15:54:07 <alise> ais523: I imagine your university just sucks.
15:54:16 <alise> At least as far as IT goes.
15:54:27 <alise> Though it's Birmingham so it's probably awful! :P
15:54:27 <AnMaster> ais523, which uni is it now again?
15:54:32 <alise> AnMaster: U of Birmingham.
15:54:48 <alise> *University; "U" seems weird at the start.
15:54:49 <AnMaster> what is it with UK cities and -ham?
15:54:54 <ais523> alise: the uni's good mostly, but their IT staff do have various issues
15:55:01 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an ancient suffix meaning "town"
15:55:11 <alise> No, it means they eat a lot of ham.
15:55:11 <ais523> so it ends up in quite a lot of placenames
15:55:22 <alise> AnMaster: -shire also
15:55:28 <alise> (for surrounding areas around some cities)
15:55:31 <ais523> "Birmingham" translates as "the town of the people of Beorma"
15:55:36 <alise> Oxfordshire, Lincolnshire, ...
15:55:38 <AnMaster> alise, meaning "surrounding area?
15:55:50 <alise> AnMaster: well, that's what it means; I don't know what it originally means
15:55:56 <alise> something ancient, presumably
15:56:03 <ais523> alise: originally it was a particular sort of area
15:56:08 <ais523> a sort of administrative division
15:56:18 <ais523> just like we have counties nowadays
15:57:11 <alise> it occurs to me that the UK's provisions for avoiding people becoming stateless are irrelevant to the determined person
15:57:23 <alise> get citizenship in a country that doesn't have such precautions, renounce UK citizenship, renounce other country's citizenship
15:57:32 <ais523> why would someone be determined to become stateless?
15:57:35 <alise> ofc, it's probably more a safety feature than an anti-free-man people :P
15:57:40 <alise> *an anti-free-man feature
15:57:44 <ais523> besides, it's a UN rule that people can't become stateless, not just UK in general
15:57:46 <alise> ais523: the hell of it?
15:57:55 <alise> ais523: try US, then
15:58:03 <alise> I thought you said EU
15:58:11 <ais523> alise: becoming stateless would destroy your life, pretty much
15:58:14 <ais523> you wouldn't legally be able to go anywhere
15:58:22 <alise> ais523: what I'd /really/ like to be is a pure European Citizen
15:58:22 <ais523> it's not the sort of thing you do just for the hell of it
15:58:48 <alise> I'm already happy living in a country as a European Citizen; you get to vote and everything. I don't really want to be a British citizen.
15:59:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:00:33 <alise> We should just make the EU not suck, have a handful of US states and areas (the good ones) secede to Canada, bomb the US, then have Canada join the EU
16:00:41 <alise> I have said it before and I will say it again. :P
16:01:31 <ais523> I disagree with bombing the US
16:01:41 <ais523> it would cause a huge waste of innocent life, on both sides of the Atlantic
16:02:09 <AnMaster> ais523, does that mean you agree with the rest of that?
16:02:13 <alise> ais523: Shut up :P
16:02:19 <oerjan> it couldn't be the EU bombing the US, as that would contradict the hypothesis that the EU did not suck at that point
16:02:23 <alise> Okay, we can just get the people out of the US then cut it away from the rest.
16:02:45 <alise> The people of those shitty states can go to the cold parts of Canada. They have the room.
16:03:11 <alise> See? Now it's a perfect plan.
16:04:05 <oerjan> well unless we also support global warming, i doubt those parts have the food productivity...
16:04:24 <alise> well ... they can go to the moon then
16:04:49 <oerjan> but then they might haul comets and asteroids at us
16:05:18 <alise> Make the EU not suck. The good parts of America secede to Canada, and take over the rest of the US for Canada. Canada makes those areas not suck gradually, becoming more like the good areas. The Canada joins the EU.
16:07:17 <alise> Okay, okay, hmm...
16:07:23 <alise> (Not thinking about the plan. :P)
16:08:24 <oerjan> i would like to mention that the mutual-thinking-the-others-suck is a main part of the reason why anyone sucks in the first place
16:09:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, where should that correction go
16:09:21 <oerjan> and from there to conclude that alise's viewpoint is a part of the problem, not the solution
16:09:31 <alise> oerjan: are you suggesting we keep Texas?
16:10:32 <AnMaster> alise, you should know by now that in this channel we often takes jokes seriously and try to make them work
16:10:58 <alise> did I ever say I didn't know that?
16:11:32 <AnMaster> no but you didn't say the opposite either
16:11:58 <oerjan> AnMaster is now making an ass out of u and me
16:12:33 <oerjan> only in this particular context
16:12:50 <alise> assumptions, on the other hand, make an ass out of u and mption.
16:13:03 <alise> AnMaster: we no u dont get it
16:13:58 <AnMaster> dumb isn't same as not knowing references. Your joke about mption I did get however.
16:15:27 <oerjan> <alise> ais523: (There are solutions that do not depend on #20 being correct, so this isn't a "spoiler".)
16:15:38 <oerjan> as long as you don't mind having four of them, that is
16:15:54 <alise> i give it away and you don't even get it
16:16:03 <oerjan> alise: hey now _you_ are assuming
16:16:19 <alise> oerjan: i think it's pretty clear he has no idea
16:16:35 <alise> why do people keep following @tusho
16:17:00 <oerjan> i don't trust your judgement on AnMaster to be unbiased in such matters
16:17:31 <alise> <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't get it :P
16:17:31 <alise> <AnMaster> dumb isn't same as not knowing references. Your joke about mption I did get however.
16:17:44 <oerjan> alise: are you making brilliant twits, perhaps?
16:18:12 <alise> oerjan: none at all
16:18:27 * Sgeo is way too tired
16:18:33 <alise> "Your 18 friends are waiting" --Facebook email.
16:18:34 <oerjan> alise: maybe it's a zen thing, then. tusho _does_ sound japanese, after all.
16:18:42 <alise> oerjan: or a weeaboo thing :-D
16:18:54 <ais523> alise: are you on Facebook?
16:19:07 <ais523> it's a site I refuse to have anything to do with
16:19:24 <alise> oerjan: Perry Bible Fellowship reference turned meme.
16:19:36 <alise> It means "japanophile" in a more insulting way although is often self-applied.
16:19:47 <alise> oerjan: http://knowyourmeme.com/i/29097/original/PBF071-Weeaboo.gif
16:20:09 <alise> ais523: only technically
16:20:18 <alise> ais523: i made an account once never intending to use it, now i get spam about it
16:20:26 <ais523> so it only steals the parts of your soul you're willing to give it
16:20:29 <alise> ais523: i certainly haven't given them any of my details
16:20:38 * oerjan notes google claims wikipedia's japanophile article contains the term. it doesn't now.
16:20:41 <alise> i just cba to delete it, I get fluff in my inbox anyway
16:21:05 <alise> I need to create a new email account and a new IM (Live Messenger) account.
16:21:12 <alise> And then convince everyone I know to switch to Jabber.
16:21:19 <alise> (Note: Never happening.)
16:21:39 <Sgeo> alise, Google Talk uses Jabber
16:22:03 <alise> And everyone I know uses Live because everyone that everyone I know knows uses Live.
16:22:16 <alise> Therefore nobody I know switches to Jabber, therefore they use Live, therefore people who know them use Live because they use Live.
16:22:57 <Sgeo> Most people in my area use AIM, my "boss" for this project uses GTalk, my "co-worker" uses Live, as does [co-incidentally] my best friend
16:23:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, I just realised: happy bday
16:23:19 <alise> cheater99: CAPITALISM.
16:23:24 <alise> Gregor: unhappy birthday
16:23:34 <alise> Sgeo: AIM is most common in America, Live in the UK.
16:23:47 <oerjan> Gregor: crazily silly birthday
16:24:40 <alise> Gregor: CAPITALISTIC BIRTHDAY
16:24:42 <oerjan> what AnMaster _didn't_ realize is that Gregor has been idle for 17 hours
16:25:19 -!- DH____ has joined.
16:25:49 <oerjan> you're right. let's make no more asses.
16:26:14 <alise> hmm, perrybiblefellowship.com now redirects to the book, even though a new comic was posted recently
16:26:23 <alise> it's pbfcomics.com
16:27:48 <oerjan> <alise> I'm 99.99% certain it was the author's intention.
16:27:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think he reads scrollback
16:28:17 <oerjan> the sentence made up of the answers if you use E is kind of a hint, there...
16:28:28 <alise> oerjan: indeed; i forgot about it at that point
16:30:53 <oerjan> <alise> ais523: I was going to do it with prolog but realised it'd be a bit of a bitch what with the question that involves primality or being divisible by 5 or whatever
16:31:00 <alise> so uh, anyone have tips for building a small kdrive?
16:31:17 <oerjan> strictly speaking you never need to program that one, it falls out of the rest
16:31:30 <alise> oerjan: howso? because it can't be that answer?
16:31:35 <alise> you never need to program anything, of course
16:31:39 <alise> you can just inline the answer
16:32:06 <oerjan> the rest of the information fixes what that question has to be without considering its options
16:32:36 <oerjan> at least i don't recall every checking it
16:32:46 <alise> in prolog it'll be a bitch though
16:32:47 <oerjan> (before the number was fixed)
16:33:11 <oerjan> or wait, hm, maybe it was fixed before the number
16:33:19 <alise> ais523: will this break in Prolog if you do q1(X)?
16:33:22 <alise> assuming their are other rules
16:33:36 <ais523> alise: it won't break q1(X)
16:33:40 <oerjan> in any case i never used the options to determine the answer of it
16:33:47 <ais523> when it backtracks to checking q1(a), it'll recursively try q1(b)
16:33:55 <ais523> so long as that doesn't cause infinite recursion, you don't get an infinite loop
16:34:05 <alise> ais523: so this is kosher?
16:34:06 <alise> % The first question whose answer B is question
16:34:06 <alise> q1(a) :- q1(b). % (A) 1
16:34:06 <alise> q1(b) :- q2(b). % (B) 2
16:34:06 <alise> q1(c) :- q3(b). % (C) 3
16:34:06 <alise> q1(d) :- q4(b). % (D) 4
16:34:08 <alise> q1(e) :- q5(b). % (E) 5
16:34:22 <ais523> alise: it's OK as long as you don't cause a loop
16:34:24 <oerjan> alise: you don't want to do it that way, you want to pass the answers as an argument not read them off the database
16:34:28 <ais523> unfortunately, doing that for every question, it will cause a loop
16:34:32 <alise> ais523: it probably won't. maybe.
16:35:02 <oerjan> alise: because it's awkward to backtrack over something that's fixed in the database?
16:35:02 <alise> this way utilises prolog's strength
16:35:07 <alise> oerjan: it isn't fixed
16:35:12 <alise> qN are all predicates over their answer
16:36:48 <oerjan> alise: but you are not passing the information of what the answer is to the right side
16:37:03 <oerjan> the a and b in the first clause are not unified with each other
16:37:28 <alise> oerjan: well I can always omit the a option
16:37:32 <alise> because it's trivially contradictory
16:37:35 <alise> would it work then?
16:38:53 <alise> in q2, do I have to codify that no other questions have such answers?
16:39:09 <alise> so I have to write out 18 things of the form
16:39:11 <oerjan> i doubt that it works.
16:39:18 <alise> eh I'll just assume it
16:39:26 <alise> ow q3 will be difficult to code
16:39:31 <alise> ais523: will it work, you know prolog better :P
16:41:34 <oerjan> for one thing, q1(X) only says that X is _a_ possible answer to question 1. if there is more than one solution that trivially breaks down because a clause like q1(b) :- q2(b) doesn't even say that those assignments belong to the same global solution
16:43:34 <alise> "Firefox is not available in the standard repository, but the ultra-fast Minefield is - a customized version of Firefox." *rage*
16:44:15 <oerjan> and even if there is only one _global_ solution, it might still break down because you are only looking at local parts of it, with no necessary global consistency
16:44:47 <oerjan> you need to pass the global solution somehow to assure global consistency.
16:45:41 -!- alise has left (?).
16:45:43 -!- alise has joined.
16:45:47 * alise reboots into Tiny Core Linux
16:45:50 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:50:37 <oerjan> <ais523> and thus, if you're at sea-level, due to the earth not being spherical you can use altitude to measure latitude
16:51:18 <oerjan> i _think_ sea level is approximately a gravitational equipotential surface all over the world
16:51:52 <oerjan> the non-sphericality is due to rotation, but that _also_ affects gravitational potential in general relativity
16:52:20 <oerjan> whether atmospheric pressure is directly related to that, i'm not sure
16:53:46 <oerjan> an intuitive (to me anyhow) argument is that if sea level was not at the same gravitational potential everywhere, the water would _fall_ to the lower potential. of course there are other forces modifying this.
16:54:01 <ais523> oerjan: except that the rotation affects the water the same way it affects the crust
16:54:09 <ais523> which is an intuitive to me answer that it's different
16:54:29 <AnMaster> ais523, the rotation would counteract gravity as well
16:54:44 <ais523> AnMaster: are you trying to agree or disagree with me?
16:55:29 <oerjan> note same gravitational potential doesn't mean same gravitational acceleration, i think
16:55:47 <AnMaster> okay I know nothing or relativity so *shrug*
16:56:34 <oerjan> ais523: i think both the water _and_ the crust bulges at the equator precisely _because_ the rotation counteracts gravity (and in general relativity, is unified with it)
16:56:49 -!- alise has joined.
16:57:03 <ais523> so what effect does that have on air pressure?
16:57:10 <alise> Is there anything like VESA that supports arbitrary resolutions?
16:57:13 <ais523> hmm, this sort of question is what Usenet is for, but I don't know where to ask
16:57:26 <alise> ais523: usenet is useless nowadays
16:57:29 <ais523> alise: seems unlikely, video resolutions have historically been a mess
16:57:31 <alise> what's the question?
16:57:51 <ais523> alise: whether average air pressure at sea level varies by latitude
16:58:05 <alise> I want to try some miracle fruit.
16:58:13 <alise> Heh, it sounds like a drug when you say it like that.
16:58:15 <ais523> we're getting confused trying to work out the effect of the Earth's rotatoin on it
16:58:45 <oerjan> gravitational acceleration _does_ vary, iirc
16:59:04 <oerjan> so is air pressure determined by potential, acceleration, or both...
16:59:07 <AnMaster> ais523, shouldn't the air bulge in just the same way as the crust and the water?
16:59:29 <ais523> AnMaster: what affect does that have on /pressure/?
17:00:21 <alise> lol they've made E. coli express miraculin
17:01:05 <alise> fuck my ethernet controller with a stick
17:01:18 <ais523> alise: that sounds kind-of painful
17:01:32 <alise> some people are into that!
17:01:55 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:02:49 <alise> ais523: more to the point, even /the last ubuntu release/ didn't support it
17:02:54 <alise> tiny core linux doesn't either
17:03:29 <alise> configuring the kernel is tedious
17:04:10 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure seems to say nothing relevant about latitude. maybe there is no effect or it is swamped by other factors...
17:04:17 <alise> anyone ever built kdrive? :P
17:05:06 <alise> ok i wish jwm had a less shit config file
17:05:31 <oerjan> well, there's that map at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure#Mean_sea_level_pressure
17:06:42 <alise> i ought to just make a good wm grumble
17:06:56 <oerjan> and that really doesn't even look approximately symmetric about the equator
17:07:57 <oerjan> ok maybe _very_ approximately
17:08:15 <oerjan> if you ignore antarctica
17:10:52 * alise notes that the "GTK+" fltk theme is bearable
17:11:06 <alise> writing a C binding to a C++ lib. sounds "fun"
17:11:32 <ais523> are you allowed a C++ wrapper with extern "C" in it?
17:12:08 <AnMaster> alise, what controller is that?
17:12:21 <alise> that realtek one or something
17:12:32 <alise> ais523: i want to write a c program using fltk
17:12:35 <alise> fltk is a c++ library
17:12:40 <AnMaster> <alise> configuring the kernel is tedious <-- suggestion, do like I did recently. Get ubuntu kernel, edit the single option I needed to edit, build, install packages
17:12:45 <AnMaster> that way I have it as a package too
17:12:56 <AnMaster> well actually I needed a patch and and two options
17:13:04 <alise> AnMaster: but actually i want to change most options
17:13:07 <alise> to make the kernel tiny
17:13:21 <AnMaster> alise, well, then tough luck :P
17:13:25 <alise> dammit, if i can't fit a usable desktop (more complete than tiny core) in 30-40 MiB, I'll kill myself
17:14:00 <alise> ais523: actually i guess what i really want is a sh binding to fltk :P
17:14:06 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, I did some more changes. Turning off lots of modules I didn't need. To reduce compile time
17:14:13 <AnMaster> I don't need modules for dell laptops for example
17:14:16 <alise> AnMaster: Modules? No modules.
17:14:22 <alise> We can't afford modules.
17:14:53 <alise> AnMaster: what's that insane envbot hack that sets variables in the parent/
17:14:57 <alise> like tcl's uplevel
17:15:05 <AnMaster> alise, meh. I need them on my thinkpad. I need backported wlan drivers on 2.6.31 (yes the main reason was to downgrade from 2.6.32 due to bug halving battery life compared to 2.6.31)
17:15:09 <alise> AnMaster: and can it define functions?
17:15:31 <AnMaster> alise, hm, not sure about functions
17:15:35 <AnMaster> alise, I think it could with eval
17:15:47 <AnMaster> alise, and it is printf -v. Of course using eval would work
17:16:06 <AnMaster> alise, though it depends on the variable not being declared local as well in the calle
17:16:12 <AnMaster> after all that would set it's own variable then
17:16:26 <alise> okay, so you can just do eval 'foo () { }'?
17:16:35 <AnMaster> alise, I don't know. I think you can
17:16:42 <AnMaster> alise, not sure if you can inside a function
17:16:51 <AnMaster> it would definitely work at top level, or should
17:16:59 <alise> win = $(window 100 100 200 90)
17:17:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:17:11 * AnMaster listens to GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp9.flac
17:17:13 <alise> AnMaster: the only gui toolkit that doesn't suck
17:17:18 <alise> I'm surprised you don't know of it
17:17:24 <alise> its only flaw is being C++
17:17:42 <AnMaster> can't remember any details about it
17:18:21 * alise looks for something like flwm but with less suckage
17:18:22 <AnMaster> alise, from what I remember wxwidgets isn't too shitty apart from being C++
17:18:39 <alise> AnMaster: uses (bloated) gtk as backend on X11, is C++y C++ (whereas FLTK is "just plain OOP" C++)
17:18:46 <alise> AnMaster: is overcomplicated
17:19:12 <AnMaster> alise, GTK+ looks nice though. I like clearlooks quite a lot
17:19:23 <cheater99> alise: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/7895242/Mystery-trader-buys-all-Europes-cocoa.html
17:19:27 <AnMaster> sure, from a programming POV it is not as good
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17:19:51 <AnMaster> alise, http://www.fltk.org/shots.php <-- hm...
17:20:00 <AnMaster> alise, does fltk support themes?
17:20:15 <AnMaster> because I don't really like it's default style. Reminds me of old gtk/gnome versions
17:20:45 <AnMaster> must have been back when I used red hat
17:20:57 <AnMaster> not completely sure of when it was
17:21:46 <alise> AnMaster: yes it does
17:21:53 <AnMaster> the only thing that annoys me about gnome currently is that several useful gnome settings seem to only be accessible through gconf-editor... :/
17:21:55 <alise> AnMaster: the "GTK+" theme -- which doesn't seem to be anything to do with GTK -- is nice
17:22:02 <AnMaster> and it seems to be more like that for every release
17:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, hm. So it isn't like the QT GTK+ theme which actually uses GTK?
17:22:57 <alise> AnMaster: it isn't, it's its own style
17:23:12 <AnMaster> alise, any screenshot of it? :)
17:23:34 <alise> AnMaster: i'll try and get one
17:24:01 <alise> AnMaster: just need to download some "demo" program
17:26:34 <alise> AnMaster: might take a little while
17:26:44 <AnMaster> alise, btw how do you set theme for it? does it use some config panel app or do you edit a config file? Or perhaps it is up to each program using the toolkit?
17:27:38 <alise> AnMaster: "program -s[cheme] foo", I think it provides additional options to all programs (probably opt-out-able)
17:27:43 <alise> maybe there's some env var
17:27:56 <alise> and programs can presumably set it
17:28:01 <alise> cool, Fl_Text_Editor is a whole port of nedit
17:28:09 <alise> can do syntax highlighting and everything
17:28:15 <AnMaster> alise, does that means it provides main() for you? and you use some other entry point?
17:28:55 <alise> #include <FL/Fl.H>
17:28:55 <alise> #include <FL/Fl_Window.H>
17:28:55 <alise> #include <FL/Fl_Button.H>
17:28:55 <alise> int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {
17:28:56 <alise> Fl_Window* w = new Fl_Window(330, 190);
17:28:58 <alise> new Fl_Button(110, 130, 100, 35, "Okay");
17:29:02 <alise> w->show(argc, argv);
17:29:08 <alise> that ->show is presumably what does it.
17:29:13 <alise> so you could override that.
17:29:28 <alise> w->show(3, { "", "-s", "GTK+" });
17:29:37 <AnMaster> doesn't SDL provide main() or something like that?
17:29:52 <AnMaster> I seem to remember there was something strange with SDL_main() or such
17:30:09 <alise> jeez the fltk demo programs suck
17:30:11 <alise> AnMaster: yeah on OS X
17:30:30 <alise> breaks at least the haskell binding, you have to expose a haskell program to c and write a short bit of c to fix it
17:31:19 * alise decides to find a representative screen from the ui designer instead of trying the demo programs
17:32:11 <AnMaster> using haskell ←→ <anything impure> bindings feel kind of being a traitor to haskell if you see what I mean
17:32:33 <alise> Eh. The IO monad is impure anyway.
17:32:42 <ais523> is there some sort of impure-bindings monad?
17:32:43 <alise> Unless you're an FRP geek, in which case good for you.
17:33:01 <ais523> it feels a bit wrong to have everything impure just stuffed into IO
17:33:12 <ais523> although I suppose it makes sense as an "ordering of side-effects monad2
17:33:14 <alise> ais523: well, you could use the evil io-to-st stuff if it's just state it does
17:33:17 <AnMaster> ais523, remember that setting for editing a shortcut by typing a key while hovering over the menu item?
17:33:21 <alise> state and real-world effects
17:33:26 <alise> what other kinds of impurity would there be?
17:33:39 <ais523> it's almost a decent idea, it just needs to be impossible to trigger by accident
17:33:40 <alise> AnMaster: http://i.imgur.com/ajm2X.png <-- here's a small but representative sample of the GTK+ theme
17:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems to only exist in gconf nowdays. At least I can't find it in any other place
17:33:50 <alise> AnMaster: it's basically like the default theme, but smoothed and rounded and less ugly-3D
17:33:55 <ais523> say, if double-clicking on the shortcut edited it, I'd have no problem
17:34:24 <ais523> or make it double-right-click if you don't want to wait after the first click to see if there's a second
17:34:43 <alise> AnMaster: the GTK+ theme seems quite new; it didn't have it the last time I tried it
17:34:43 <AnMaster> ais523, annoying since I wanted to edit some short cuts for the gnome-terminal. I use both konsole and gnome-terminal (on different computers) and 1) I prefer the konsole ones for switching between tabs, more friendly on the hands 2) I prefer having the same in both.
17:34:57 <alise> so I'm quite happy with fltk, it's just that i don't want to use C++.
17:35:00 <AnMaster> alise, hm how is that like GTK+ ?
17:35:02 <alise> i can just use pyfltk i guess but i'm no python fan
17:35:04 <alise> AnMaster: god knows
17:35:14 <alise> AnMaster: it doesn't use gtk colours, maybe it looks like the author's favourite gtk theme
17:35:22 <alise> all i know is "-s GTK+" makes fltk apps suddenly look nice
17:35:32 <AnMaster> alise, it looks nothing like clearlooks however.
17:35:38 <alise> hey, this means dillo doesn't necessarily have to be totally ugly
17:35:42 <alise> now the only remaining issue with dillo is that it sucks at rendering.
17:36:12 <alise> ugh, it depends on fltk2
17:36:22 <alise> (experimental version)
17:36:42 <alise> fltk2 isn't in debian :P
17:36:50 <alise> and everyone uses 1.1
17:36:53 <alise> and 2 is a moving target
17:36:59 <alise> but then again, dillo 2 is new and shiny, so...
17:37:22 <AnMaster> alise, hm I just had an idea. However... Did you say before that you wanted to make a small linux distro? And if you did, did you seriously mean it?
17:37:30 <alise> AnMaster: Absolutely.
17:37:40 <alise> AnMaster: 30 MiB for base graphical install; with a browser if I have my way.
17:37:45 <alise> Run from RAM, always.
17:38:04 <alise> Seriously: with 4 GiB of RAM, you can even run an Ubuntu install from RAM and have half left.
17:38:18 <alise> Substitute a much less bloated distro, and you have ... all the software you ever need. Running from RAM. Insanely quickly.
17:38:45 <AnMaster> alise, some random notes: you can save a lot on /usr/share/icons/**/*.png by 1) optipng, advpng and advdef 2) hardlinking identical icons.
17:38:59 <AnMaster> from what I remember, on my system I saved something like 10 MB when I tested that
17:39:13 <AnMaster> about 7 from compressing, and the rest from hardlinking
17:39:16 <alise> AnMaster: hell, there won't be many icons.
17:39:30 <alise> maybe a few on the desktop, maybe some in the menu, and the basic set, maybe tango
17:39:38 <alise> won't bother with svg or anything
17:39:48 <alise> AnMaster: but thanks for the tip
17:39:52 <AnMaster> alise, right. Oh btw I didn't hard link between themes for those numbers. Doing so saved about another 5 MB. Mostly on the KDE icon themes
17:39:53 <alise> hardlinking? I'd rather not
17:39:55 <alise> does softlinking work?
17:40:13 <AnMaster> alise, well probably, but I happened to have a tool for automatic hardlinking of identical files handy
17:40:30 <AnMaster> no idea if apps like symlinks there
17:41:40 <AnMaster> alise, oh another thing, iirc gtk creates some icon cache file. Good if you don't care about space because that way it just mmaps that file containing the icons into the processes that needs it. Saves on RAM and such. But it means a file about the same size as the icons. Which might be an issue
17:41:55 <AnMaster> same size as the icons combined I mean
17:42:16 <alise> AnMaster: but does it create it on bootup?
17:42:25 <alise> if so, that's fine; it'll go into ram and not be saved
17:42:32 <alise> amusingly, the whole thing will run off a tmpfs :-)
17:43:16 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:43:59 <AnMaster> /usr/share/icons/gnome-previous $ (du -sh --total *x*/; du -bsh --total *x*/) | grep total; du -bsh icon-theme.cache
17:44:08 <AnMaster> that diff between -sh and -bsh is strange
17:44:25 <AnMaster> hm I guess it isn't unexpected with loads of small files
17:44:41 <AnMaster> oh and gnome-previous is because I don't like the current gnome icon theme. They changed it for the worse recently
17:46:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:46:05 <AnMaster> the dir with *.svg icons is 8.1/8.7 MB (actual-file-size/size-on-disk)
17:46:50 <AnMaster> for the *.png of all sizes combined that figure is 2.4/11 MB which is, as I said, a unexpectedly large difference
17:47:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:49:35 <zzo38> Maybe I should create a channel on my IRC server, for Enhanced CWEB.
17:50:21 -!- alise has joined.
17:50:27 <alise> if aewm had more buttons on its window i'd totally use it
17:50:46 <zzo38> alise: Do you need more buttons on the window? Can't you just use three mouse buttons?
17:51:08 <zzo38> Or do you have a mouse only 1 button
17:51:16 <AnMaster> alise, see log btw, a bit too much to repaste without being spammy
17:51:20 <alise> I have a two-button mouse, but it's a trackpad.
17:51:21 <alise> AnMaster: pastebin?
17:51:27 <alise> zzo38: So middle-clicking etc. is inconvenient for me.
17:51:28 <AnMaster> spamy? spammy? hm which is the correct spelling
17:51:31 <alise> Also, I'd forget which is which. :P
17:51:34 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:52:11 <zzo38> I think sprunge is a good pastebin, it can operate in plain text. HTML is not needed (unless you want syntax highlighting)
17:52:45 <zzo38> You can operate it even if you have no web-browser software installed, but it is still compatible with using any web-browser software to view the files (including text-only browsers)
17:54:05 <alise> w3m -dump http://sprunge.us/ZMYH?x | sed '/^$/d'
17:54:10 <alise> the worst way to get a line-numbered sprunge paste ever!
17:54:47 <alise> another acceptable option is "curl http://sprunge.us/ZMYH | cat -n" :P
17:55:23 <pikhq> Which is not-POSIX.
17:55:39 <alise> http://www.small-window-manager.de/pictures/sWMdoc-1.3.6.png ;; this works in slightly over 12 kib of disk space
17:55:46 <zzo38> If I make X window-manager, there would be no buttons on the window border. You could instead use different mouse buttons, single or double click, with or without modifier keys, for different functions. With the window manager's key held down, the mouse button can be used anywhere in the window.
17:55:53 <alise> it has three buttons on the windows, you can give it a taskbar
17:56:01 <alise> i guess my brain truly does operate on windows 95
17:56:18 <ais523> alise: the windows 95 interface isn't awful
17:56:29 <ais523> it's good enough for enough purposes that it's rarely worth needing to try something better
17:56:33 <ais523> and people are familiar with it
17:56:36 <pikhq> alise: On an actual, very serious note, have you checked out DirectFB?
17:56:36 <alise> of course aliseOS's interface is far better
17:56:41 <alise> but tiling WMs I just can't do
17:56:45 <zzo38> Also I would make window-manager with no icons.
17:56:47 <alise> as well as the uber-minimalist ones like evilwm
17:57:10 <zzo38> And have a lot of function by keyboard, all of which must use the window-manager's key.
17:57:12 <alise> a title bar, minimise, maximise, close buttons, alt-tab to switch between windows, and the ability to have a taskbar with a clock, a list of windows, and a nested menu to start programs with
17:57:15 <alise> oh, and alt-drag to move a window
17:57:19 <alise> my brain can't operate with anything else
17:57:46 <alise> pikhq: is that the one with an X server?
17:57:59 <pikhq> alise: It has a rootless X server as an option, yes.
17:58:10 <alise> pikhq: does it work well?
17:58:15 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen xmonad?
17:58:21 <AnMaster> hm I wonder how sprunge allocates the urls. From what I remember it doesn't seem to be in order (which would indicate it is some sort of ASCII-encoded counter)
17:58:22 <alise> pikhq: can it support 1366x768
17:58:41 <zzo38> When I write window-manager, it don't use ALT+drag. But instead, wm-middlebutton to move a window.
17:58:42 <alise> AnMaster: random while clash, then base-62 or something
17:58:49 <alise> pikhq: do i need a silly fb driver
17:58:52 <zzo38> I have not seen xmonad
17:58:55 <AnMaster> and it is a bit too short for it being a pure hashsum without lots of collisions
17:59:08 <pikhq> alise: It uses the Linux framebuffer for unaccelerated 2D, yes.
17:59:12 <zzo38> O! It is written in Haskell.
17:59:14 <AnMaster> alise, hm. that seems so inelegant. I wonder if there source for it is public
17:59:21 <pikhq> (accelerated 2D and 3D, it uses the DRI)
17:59:37 <alise> AnMaster: it's basically what tinyurl does
17:59:48 <alise> AnMaster: it's to stop people snooping around
17:59:50 <alise> other people's pastes
17:59:58 <alise> pikhq: so i need an fb driver.
18:00:11 <AnMaster> alise, huh, I thought tinyurl did it in order. Or maybe they used to? Because if you look at the low numbers there is lots about unicycles iirc.
18:00:16 <alise> Hmm, Palm webOS uses DirectFB. Interesting.
18:00:22 <alise> AnMaster: Probably they used to.
18:00:31 <pikhq> It needs /dev/fb0. :)
18:00:37 <alise> pikhq: which one supports this hardware at that resolution
18:00:39 <alise> protip: I doubt there is one
18:00:44 <alise> it's either ati or nvidia. all the same really
18:00:50 <pikhq> alise: Which graphics card?
18:00:52 <alise> neither has an fb driver i imagine, not an up to date one
18:01:05 <AnMaster> alise, iirc the creator of tinyurl had that as a hobby or something.
18:01:13 <pikhq> Actually, they *are* both up to date.
18:01:31 <pikhq> FB drivers are much, *much* easier to keep up to date than X drivers.
18:01:35 <alise> pikhq: i wish there was something that could just ... set things to goddamn resolutions
18:01:40 <pikhq> 2D acceleration stuff last changed in the 90s.
18:01:42 <AnMaster> hm who is behind sprunge I wonder
18:01:42 <alise> like a vesa that could support 1366x768
18:02:18 <alise> AnMaster: Srirupa Deadwyler, 407 Shurs Lane, PA 19128, US
18:02:49 <pikhq> Gaaah. Why did VESA have to limit graphics modes so very much?
18:02:57 <alise> pikhq: yeah it's so retarded
18:03:09 <alise> here is my new unaccelerated graphics specification
18:03:26 <alise> OS says to hardware, "give me modes".
18:03:39 <pikhq> "Fuck it, we're going to specify the *current* common graphics resolutions. Fuck expansion."
18:03:42 <alise> hardware gives a list of triples of three integers
18:03:58 <alise> OS says to hardware, "I'll take (A,B,C)."
18:04:03 <AnMaster> hm I wonder how search engine crawlers will handle this one: http://sprunge.us/robots.txt
18:04:14 <alise> OS says to hardware, "I'll take (A,B,C) on ADDRESS."
18:04:21 <alise> hardware hooks into ADDRESS
18:04:22 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to find status code in firefox
18:04:30 <alise> now ADDRESS is an A*B*C array
18:04:51 <zzo38> AnMaster: You might need a extension add-on for that. (Vonkeror has it built-in)
18:05:19 <AnMaster> nvm, found it. No idea if it is from some extension or not
18:05:22 <alise> unsigned char *gfx = address;
18:05:28 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x] = rgb;
18:05:39 <alise> unsigned char *gfx = address;
18:05:42 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x] = r;
18:05:45 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x + 1] = g;
18:05:48 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x + 2] = b;
18:05:52 <alise> pikhq: is there ANY ISSUE with this at all?
18:06:01 <alise> pikhq: is there ANY WAY in which it is inferior to VESA?
18:06:31 <pikhq> alise: That's almost identical to VESA, except with less shity negotiation.
18:06:53 <pikhq> After the negotiation is done, it *is* VESA.
18:07:36 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and there's also a "ok, give up on ADDRESS". This disables the video and releases ADDRESS. You can then re-negotiate to, say, change the resolution.
18:07:46 <alise> So to change res to some foo that we know works:
18:07:59 <alise> actually it's just "ok give up"
18:08:01 <alise> since there's only ever one address
18:08:13 <zzo38> If I make window-manager, the only way you will be able to use a picture is as the background picture (tiled or exact size of the screen, but no stretch). Or use a solid color as a background. No picture/icon for anything else.
18:08:19 <alise> setup_gfx(new_width, new_height, new_depth);
18:08:27 <zzo38> And it will support both tiled and floating windows.
18:08:29 <alise> reorganise_windows_in_wm();
18:08:34 <alise> WOW THAT WAS HARD.
18:09:12 <alise> pikhq: Please, please tell me how VESA is retarded. HOW did they not just think of doing this?
18:09:55 <AnMaster> hm what bits does VESA include? the interface to software? Hardware protocol? Both?
18:09:58 <zzo38> Double-left-click title-bar to maximize (but not restore; title bar will be hidden for maximized windows), double-right-click title-bar to close.
18:10:28 <alise> AnMaster: vesa is the hardware protocol
18:10:46 <alise> e.g. a vesa driver will be able to display a bunch of square resolutions up to about 1280x1024x32 on just about any device
18:10:50 <alise> (assuming the device supports that)
18:10:52 <alise> slowly, no acceleration
18:10:59 <pikhq> alise: VESA hateth you.
18:11:02 <alise> now the issue is IT FUCKING SUCKS AT RESOLUTIONS
18:11:12 <alise> pikhq: is it possible to tell the card to use a mode without trying to negotiate for it?
18:11:23 <AnMaster> alise, with hardware protocol I meant "format of data sent between graphics card and monitor"
18:11:23 <alise> like "fuck you vesa, i'm telling my good old buddy Mr. Card to just use 1366x768"
18:11:41 <pikhq> alise: No, it has hardcoded resolutions.
18:11:42 <zzo38> And, single-left-click to activate the window for keyboard focus (if the configuration option HOVER_TO_FOCUS is not set), and maybe double-middle-click to switch floating/tiled?
18:11:45 <zzo38> Do you like this??
18:12:07 <AnMaster> alise, also your suggestion seems to assume rectangular monitor :(
18:12:15 <alise> zzo38: try sloppy focus -- hover to give keyboard focus, click to raise to top
18:12:23 <alise> AnMaster: yes it does.
18:12:24 <alise> AnMaster: suck it.
18:12:28 <ais523> alise: do you know of any video cards that /don't/ assume rectangular monitor?
18:12:30 <AnMaster> alise, and even more importantly: rectangular pixels
18:12:33 <alise> AnMaster: the gfx card can easily just ignore the portions not included in the rectangular shape
18:12:36 <alise> AnMaster: it doesn't assume that at all
18:12:42 <zzo38> alise: Yes, if HOVER_TO_FOCUS is set, you still have to click to raise to top
18:12:45 <AnMaster> I want a display with hexagonal pixels!
18:13:12 <ais523> AnMaster: how would you do subpixel antialiasing?
18:13:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know enough about how it is done on regularly shaped display to answer that
18:13:54 <AnMaster> I mean, I know the idea, but not the exact formula and such
18:14:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's done by treating each subpixel as a pixel. And antialiasing. Seriously, that's it.
18:14:31 <alise> AnMaster: You have a WxH area you want to put text on.
18:14:50 <alise> AnMaster: Render, greyscale antialiased, to a (3W)xH area, treating it as square (so text is really fat).
18:14:59 <AnMaster> especially not for edges that are turned 90° compared to the sub pixels. With that I mean if you have like: |R|G|B| and a line like ------ through the middle of that
18:14:59 <alise> Now, you have each R,G,B pixel.
18:15:11 <alise> Compress the (3W)xH to WxH by treating each pixel as R, G, B in succession.
18:15:22 <alise> AnMaster: You don't have to consider that at all.
18:15:50 <alise> You have to do the greyscale antialiasing otherwise the text just looks like a rainbow party.
18:15:53 <AnMaster> aren't there cameras with hexagonal CCDs?
18:15:56 <zzo38> Or, instead of HOVER_TO_FOCUS, set MOUSE_FOCUS_MODE: 0=left-click title only, 1=hover, 2=click anywhere in window, 5=hover and raise, 6=click anywhere in window and raise, 7=hover but click anywhere to raise
18:15:59 <AnMaster> I seem to remember reading about that
18:16:07 <AnMaster> err hexagonal pixels on the CCD I mean
18:16:21 <zzo38> Is this way of MOUSE_FOCUS_MODE more better?
18:17:24 <alise> I wonder how easy it would be to patch aewm and add moar butans.
18:17:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Whoever designs those is an asshole.
18:18:10 <alise> I wonder if the ultimate fate of all Linux users is FVWM.
18:19:45 <alise> pikhq: "dual window manager prototype (minimalist dwm with no tags, just one view)"
18:19:56 <alise> pikhq: The suckless guys are so crazy, they apply the adjective "minimalist" to a stripped-down fork of dwm, not dwm itself.
18:20:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, I seem to remember there was a good reason for it.
18:20:20 <alise> AnMaster: most efficient packing of 2d space?
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18:20:49 <AnMaster> alise, could be that. It was ages ago I read about it.
18:21:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you know how colour camera CCDs are conventionally designed? As squares of 4 elements: 1 blue, 1 red and two green.
18:21:55 <AnMaster> built up of lots of such groups
18:23:18 <AnMaster> which results in some interesting post-processing before you have a "conventional" image file
18:26:11 <alise> ooh ede seems nice
18:26:21 <alise> FLTK-based win95-like wm
18:26:32 <zzo38> I prefer window manager with no-buttons. I can make a no-icons window manager. And no desktop environment.
18:26:37 <alise> EDE (Equinox Desktop Environment) is simple and fast desktop environment with familiar look and feel. EDE uses FLTK toolkit for GUI presentation and UNIX philosophy for it's design.
18:26:37 <alise> With UNIX philosophy, EDE splits each component in separate executable entity that do one job and do it good. This makes EDE very easy to alter on user needs or requirements.
18:26:37 <alise> EDE is light and fast. It uses C++ carefully yielding fast startup, low memory usage and great portability. Also, we care not only about how EDE runs, but how much time is needed to compile it.
18:26:37 <alise> This facts makes EDE a perfect desktop environment for older computers and embedded devices. But, you can use it on your everyday hardware too.
18:27:05 <alise> ofc the desktop environment itself is a load of useless crap
18:27:09 <alise> but the wm seems just fine
18:27:17 <alise> and it even supports xft
18:27:18 <zzo38> Maybe it can be done, dragging the mouse across the root window creates a floating terminal window.
18:27:26 <zzo38> Double-clicking creates a tiled terminal window.
18:27:53 <zzo38> wm-space (or maybe some other key) creates a terminal window, also.
18:28:03 <alise> Yuck, Enlightenment.
18:28:32 <alise> EvilPoison. I hope that's a blend of evilwm and ratpoison :-)
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18:28:54 <alise> evilwm with ratpoison keybindings
18:31:08 <alise> http://www.gilesorr.com/wm/table.html Awesome.
18:33:10 <alise> ais523: hey i just realised what the unit /should/ have me for
18:34:03 <alise> http://www.gilesorr.com/papers/otherwm2003/images/aewm.png jesus christ
18:36:52 <alise> maybe i'll just use http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png :P
18:37:59 <alise> i know i've gone crazy because i keep thinking in all seriousness "why does everyone else deliberately make mistakes when designing window managers?"
18:39:37 <alise> His figure andmovements were those of a puppet cut out of erot kleine schwester shingle and jerked by astring; and his address corresponded very well with his appearance.Now, if you think fit to sell me those spectacles, I willpay nackt freundin you the largest market price for glasses.The contrary is, of course, inzest bilder vater tochter the truth; I have always paiddearly for whatever kindness others have shown me.But now don't you want to buy abonnet o
18:39:37 <alise> r a cloak to carry home to bumsen und blasen your wife?Well, you're whistlin' now, birdie; that's my intention; set 'em allout. --sink sink socks
18:42:05 <alise> the new postpostmodernism
18:43:42 <pikhq> alise: NIH is, indeed, a crippling disease.
18:43:51 <alise> pikhq: but an AWESOME one
18:44:18 <alise> unless combined with other mental diseases like religion and craziness (a recognised mental disease). Then you get LoseThos.
18:44:35 <alise> Wow, the website changed.
18:44:39 <pikhq> Karmen is an interesting-looking window manager.
18:44:41 <alise> If you have an x86_64 PC machine such as a Core_i7, a Core_2_Duo, a Pentium_D...
18:44:41 <alise> nothing worse than a Pentium_4_Extreme_Edition, then enjoy the clean, 64-bit,
18:44:41 <alise> programming environment of LoseThos.
18:44:57 <alise> It's the new diaeresis.
18:45:10 <alise> pikhq: Too bloated!
18:45:31 <pikhq> alise: It appears to be written using *ed*.
18:47:40 <pikhq> Y'know, the only editor.
18:48:14 <alise> pikhq: Oh, Karmen.
18:48:20 <alise> I thought you said that other K one. I forget what.
18:48:40 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I remember that screenshot.
18:48:47 <alise> From the command issued you can tell he actually uses ed.
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18:50:51 <alise> I have a new motto (restating of KISS), which used to be something like "REMOVE EVERYTHING! Now make it not suck!"
18:51:10 <alise> It is "may it not be tricksy", said by E. E. Cummings to a French translator, telling him to use the regular form of his name, not "e e cummings".
18:52:01 <alise> * "Core_i7", "Core_2_Duo", "Pentium_D" and "Pentium_4_Extreme_Edition" are
18:52:01 <alise> trademarks of Intel Corp.
18:52:04 <alise> No, they're really not.
18:52:23 <alise> * "Linux" is probably a trademark owned by Linus Torvalds.
18:53:12 <pikhq> Yes, Linus Torvalds does own that trademark.
18:54:00 <pikhq> No, certainly. Some guy registered a trademark on it and then demanded royalties...
18:54:33 <pikhq> Linus sued, and they settled with Linus having the trademark.
18:55:41 * oerjan wonders if there's any OS ending in -sux
18:56:09 <pikhq> I'm sure there's a Jesux.
18:56:30 <pikhq> http://pudge.net/jesux/
18:56:38 <alise> "Reddit, today I was woken up by a squirrel jumping through my window, knocking all my shit over, tearing posters down, JUMPING ON TOP OF ME IN BED, and shitting everywhere. I have scratches on my back from it using me as a springboard."
18:56:47 <alise> "Fucker climbed right through the hole his compadres had made in the mesh screen of my bedroom window. Super hot night, so I decided to sleep naked. Woken up by this lunatic scrabbling around my room, onto my bed, climbing up my guitar, jumping off shit, flying around like some rodent daredevil. I screamed like a little girl. Anyway, it jumped at me, I ducked, it used my back to jump onto my desk. Squirrel claw meets bare skin. What are my chances? Should I
18:56:48 <alise> see a doctor or vet?"
18:57:24 <alise> "qmail replaces sendmail as the standard MTA (sendmail was written by a prominent homosexual)"
18:57:28 <alise> are you /sure/ it's a joke
18:57:40 <alise> "# chmod(1) accepts hexadecimal modes, such as 0x01B6"
18:57:44 <pikhq> One in very poor taste.
18:58:05 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
18:58:14 <alise> "There is some sort of perverse pleasure in knowing that it's basically impossible to send a piece of hate mail through the Internet without its being touched by a gay program. That's kind of funny." --Eric Allman
18:58:17 <alise> pikhq: Oh come on, it's funny.
18:58:58 <pikhq> alise: I've had a bit too much of that sort of bullshit to laugh.
18:59:04 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print 0x01B6;'
18:59:33 <alise> pikhq: Poor, poor persecuted Christian. I think you'll find you guys have done most of the persecution in memory. Don't be so sensitive about religion.
18:59:56 <pikhq> alise: No, no, it's the "hahah persecuting gays is funny" bit that's un-funny.
18:59:59 <zzo38> Maybe they can change "kill" to "euthanize" like System VI, or else call it "sendsignal"
19:00:01 <pikhq> Nothing to do with religion.
19:00:07 * oerjan doesn't get the 0x01B6 reference
19:00:12 <alise> pikhq: It's mocking conservative Christian attitudes in the US.
19:00:25 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, yeah...
19:00:27 <alise> zzo38: oh i thought it was absurdism
19:00:35 <alise> "And in the middle of it all, a random feature!"
19:00:40 <pikhq> It's just too damned close to reality.
19:00:51 <oerjan> i thought of 666 but didn't recall that was octal
19:00:59 <alise> pikhq: You know, we /could/ revert my evacuation plan to a bombing plan.
19:01:17 <zzo38> "daemon" could be changed to "service" like Windows NT services does?
19:01:37 <alise> fsck could be changed to mkluv.
19:01:59 <alise> mount will only run if given the --missionary flag
19:02:03 <zzo38> No, it should be changed to something that makes sense for what it is for
19:02:59 <zzo38> If you don't like the word "fsck", spell it out in full as "filesystemcheck" perhaps
19:05:13 <alise> I wonder if I could mod karmen to not suck.
19:05:41 <zzo38> "Jesux" might or might not be a joke. I am unsure whether the author knows whether or not it is real.
19:05:52 <alise> I'm not sure by what evidence pikhq considers it a joke.
19:06:15 <zzo38> Probably it is not, since the "This page last updated Wednesday, September 29, 1999, 13:51:07 PDT" and the "Jesux will be here in late December" together suggest it is not real and is just a joke
19:06:16 <alise> he works at slashdot
19:06:25 <alise> zzo38: or vaporware.
19:06:39 <zzo38> Yes, or vaporware.
19:07:00 <pikhq> alise: It claims to be.
19:07:18 <alise> pudge appears to be a republican though
19:07:22 <alise> so uh he's an idiot either way
19:07:34 <pikhq> http://pudge.net/jesux/jesux.html
19:07:44 <pikhq> He's an idiot, *but* it's a joke.
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19:08:17 <alise> he's a devout christian, what fun
19:08:29 <alise> pikhq: so it's not a "joke", just a "thought experiment"
19:08:33 <zzo38> I suppose it is a joke a bit similar to System VI.
19:08:53 <zzo38> But System VI joke was done before Linux was invented, and one of the System VI features has been implemented in Linux.
19:09:30 <alise> pikhq: so for all i know he probably does hate gays.
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19:09:49 <zzo38> Christians tend to prefer to hate homosexual people
19:10:06 <alise> Homophobia isn't a preference, it's in their genes!
19:10:08 <pikhq> Love thy neighbor but hate the fags!
19:10:13 <alise> They can't change it. It's wrong to hate homophobes.
19:10:20 <alise> It's homophobiphobia.
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19:10:35 <alise> pikhq: HOW COME THE KARMEN AUTHOR USES ED /AND/ AUTOTOOLS
19:10:38 <alise> That's like ... just ...
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19:11:15 <pikhq> alise: How... And... Gah!
19:17:03 <zzo38> Do you know the System VI joke?
19:17:50 <ais523> alise: autotools really isn't as bad as people think it is
19:17:52 <zzo38> System VI is what originated the "less" command as a replacement for "more".
19:18:11 <pikhq> ais523: It's quite vomit-inducing though.
19:18:11 <ais523> and I can see a clear reason why people would go ed-and-autotools; it would be out of a desire for maximum portability
19:18:12 <alise> http://www.baltimoremd.com/technology/newunix.html ic
19:18:21 <alise> ais523: no, the author uses ed because he's a minimalist
19:18:22 <pikhq> A lot of things are much, much more so, mind.
19:18:28 <alise> ais523: http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png
19:18:38 <pikhq> For instance, I would like to *murder* Perl's build system.
19:18:39 <alise> you can tell he's an experienced ed user with the advanced command, not obvious to non-ed users
19:18:47 <alise> and that the personality creating such a minimalist wm is the kind that uses ed
19:18:53 <alise> this personality /hates autotools with a fiery passion/
19:19:53 <zzo38> Yes it is that newunix.html
19:19:55 <alise> From now on "rich text" will be more accurately referred to as "exploitive capitalist text".
19:19:58 <alise> i see no issue with this
19:20:35 <zzo38> But I don't know if a typesetting system called "KleeNeX" exists or not
19:21:03 <zzo38> But "less" certainly exists. It was originally a joke before they actually added it into GNU/Linux
19:21:11 <alise> ais523: quick, come up with a term for a lax manager who just smokes weed all day instead of bossing people about
19:21:13 <alise> (not "incompetent")
19:21:20 <alise> then my WM is a "window <that>" :P
19:21:34 <ais523> actually, no, they mostly are bosy
19:21:46 <alise> window apatheticer?
19:21:49 <alise> needs to be an -er
19:22:02 <alise> maybe it could be "window anarchy"
19:22:11 <pikhq> alise: A manager that bosses people about is a shit manager.
19:22:17 <zzo38> For the "no" command, I don't see how the program can tell whether or not the "no" is ignored? (Unless the program it sends it to receives no standard input at all)
19:22:26 <alise> managers are mostly useless though.
19:22:34 <zzo38> But it could still be done making alias "no" to mean "yes n"
19:22:35 <pikhq> alise: The point of management is to deal with the bureaucratic bullshit for the sake of those under him, not to add more bureaucratic bullshit.
19:22:40 <pikhq> Sadly, most managers suck at this.
19:22:52 <alise> And ideally of course there'd be no bureaucratic bullshit.
19:23:01 <alise> actually i'd wager most companies would do much better without a manager.
19:23:18 <pikhq> Yes, but sufficiently large organisations need bureaucracy to function...
19:23:36 <pikhq> The only realistic way to pare it down is to make the organisation small.
19:24:00 <pikhq> It's much like programs; the larger it is, the more work goes into just making the pieces fit together.
19:24:08 <alise> And large programs suck.
19:25:06 <alise> The UNIX philosophy: Down with vertical integration!
19:26:08 <oerjan> But it's All Right with horizontal
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19:28:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: alise is being nastily groanless
19:30:36 <alise> someone name my wm
19:30:46 <alise> the name must be as awesome as the wm :P
19:31:16 <alise> I'm going to. (This will not be a difficult task, as it will have almost nothing).
19:31:54 <alise> Specifically, it will give windows title bars. These title bars will have minimise, maximise and close buttons. You can click and drag a title bar to move the window. You can also move a window by alt+dragging on it. You can resize a window using the border.
19:32:06 <alise> /Maybe/ a menu launcher/switcher type dealy.
19:35:02 <oerjan> well mangled all right
19:35:08 <alise> oerjan: what is it actually
19:35:41 <Gregor> oerjan: So confused :(
19:36:23 <Gregor> oerjan: By EgoBot not functioning.
19:36:26 <Gregor> I thought I'd fixed it.
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19:36:54 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
19:37:12 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
19:37:18 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:37:20 <alise> pikhq: Convince me not to create χ Windows.
19:37:26 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
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19:38:07 <alise> pikhq: By the way... aewm has nice code.
19:38:27 <alise> I suggest you read it.
19:38:47 <alise> pikhq: Seriously. Even the GTK bits.
19:39:45 <alise> /* X, in its perpetual helpfulness, always does native borders NorthWest
19:39:45 <alise> * style. This, as usual, ruins everything. So we compensate. */
19:39:45 <alise> switch (GRAV(c)) {
19:39:45 <alise> case NorthWestGravity:
19:39:51 <alise> Fuck yeah, gravity.
19:40:42 <alise> Design of Arbitrary Greek Letter Windows:
19:40:58 <alise> A client asks the server, "what modes do you support?".
19:41:08 <alise> The server replies, possibly including a wildcard, i.e. "whatever you want".
19:41:12 <alise> The program chooses one, and tells the server.
19:41:18 <alise> The server says, "Here you go: <address>".
19:41:25 <alise> This address is graphics memory.
19:41:46 <alise> A window manager works by overriding the server for client programs, and providing an address managed by itself, which it blits to the real graphics memory.
19:41:55 <alise> Similar with mouse and keyboard and stuff.
19:41:58 <alise> This also lets you nest WMs.
19:42:04 <alise> pikhq: Find a single design flaw. I dare you.
19:42:54 <pikhq> alise: Insufficient suck.
19:43:17 <alise> ERROR -- INSUFFICIENT SUCK. GIVING UP.
19:43:26 <zzo38> I remember I once owed someone $666.00 but they didn't like 666 so they said I can pay $665.00 instead.
19:43:27 <alise> I basically stole the design from Plan 9 and Y Windows, but who cares?
19:43:40 <alise> Wait, how did you get to owing someone that much?
19:44:05 <oerjan> it was in return for their soul, clearly
19:44:11 <zzo38> alise: Don't worry about how. Some things are just more expensive than other things.
19:45:03 <pikhq> Fascinating. aewm is readable.
19:45:28 <zzo38> I have also heard some people that when they go to the store, and the total is $6.66 they will purchase one more item so that the total is not $6.66 anymore!
19:45:30 <pikhq> Lots and lots of boilerplate, but that's just GUI code for you.
19:45:31 <alise> zzo38 doesn't want us to find out about his heroin dealing operation
19:46:31 <zzo38> I don't deal with heroin. This amount had something to do with government rates, which have now increased. The government is always incompetent.
19:47:05 <zzo38> I simply had to pay a service charge to someone.
19:47:21 <zzo38> I don't know why the prices for that service are regulated by government, but apparently it is.
19:47:31 <alise> Yeah, why would the government legislate prostitution?
19:47:39 <zzo38> Also that is no longer the price.
19:47:50 <zzo38> They increased the price now.
19:47:57 <zzo38> And it has nothing to do with prostitution.
19:48:05 <alise> darn, another theory out the window
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19:48:55 <alise> pikhq: Why is reparenting so hard.
19:49:05 <pikhq> alise: Because fuck you.
19:49:17 <alise> pikhq: I'm not ready for that kind of commitment yet.
19:50:30 <zzo38> We don't need arrows at the end of the scroll-bars. Xaw doesn't have them.
19:50:45 <alise> zzo38: we don't need visible scrollbars except when scrolling generally
19:51:07 <alise> pikhq: I mean non-reparenting managers are so easy to write.
19:51:11 <alise> But I have NO IDEA how to reparent.
19:51:58 <oerjan> you repare, or you do n't
19:52:48 <zzo38> Which kind of make rules does CSPIDER need to have built-in? Currently it has: _C_FILE _CTIME _CWD _TEX_FILE _WEB_FILE (all of the predefined rules, as well as all rules that are used automatically, should have their variable names starting with underscore and all uppercase)
19:53:19 <zzo38> Is there any more that might be important?
19:53:45 <alise> zzo38: maybe you could tell us what cspider does first.
19:54:13 <alise> Usage of the works is permitted provided that this instrument is retained with the works, so that any entity that uses the works is notified of this instrument.
19:54:13 <alise> DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY.
19:54:15 <alise> Well that's a simple license.
19:54:20 <alise> OSI certified, too.
19:54:54 <zzo38> It is a replacement for makefiles. So that makefiles and autoconf and such things no longer needed. It can call CTANGLE and CWEAVE automatically, as well as other programs. It reads any web file, so metamacros can still be used.
19:55:58 <zzo38> It can have command-line arguments such as +T tells it to generate C codes only but do not compile or print, +W tells it to generate printouts only but no compile C codes, +C means generate C codes and compile but no printout, +F meands just display the list of things it would do but don't actually do anything (just fake it).
19:55:58 <alise> Clearly my modified version of aewm should be called œwm.
19:56:39 <zzo38> OK call it that. It isn't ASCII though. So if someone is writing in ASCII they will need to type it using ASCII letters
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19:57:40 <alise> pikhq: Do you use virtual desktops?
19:57:46 <alise> zzo38: I'll have it oewm in the filenames.
19:58:40 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that will work
20:00:24 <alise> pikhq: I don't use them and I don't understand people who use them. :P
20:00:45 <pikhq> alise: It's being used so that bringing up my web browser is a two-key combo. :P
20:00:59 <ais523> I use them when I need to completely context-switch
20:01:13 <alise> I can bring up my browser by clicking anywhere on my screen. Statistically, I have probability 1 of hitting a browser.
20:01:15 <ais523> e.g. doing work on desktop 1, hibernating to keep it open, want to do something entirely different on desktop 2
20:01:40 <ais523> also, I tend to leave a music player minimized on desktop 2 rather than leaving it cluttering desktop 1
20:01:44 <pikhq> alise: What, do you not run other programs?
20:01:46 * alise removes all virtual desktop support from oewm.
20:01:51 <alise> pikhq: I do, but I also run an awful lot of browsers.
20:02:06 <alise> Do I need support for the Shape extension?
20:02:07 <pikhq> I have a single one.
20:02:17 <alise> Awesome, yak.st is available.
20:03:11 <alise> pikhq: Is it considered Evil to remove license headers from a fork of a program, as long as you keep the LICENSE?
20:03:15 <alise> I hate license headers with a passion.
20:03:20 <alise> But maybe people would think it's rude.
20:03:46 <pikhq> alise: License headers are there so you can have per-file copyright info.
20:03:50 <pikhq> Which is *most* relevant in a fork.
20:03:55 <ais523> they're also a legal requirement of most licenses
20:04:03 <alise> ais523: now /that/ is absolutely false and FUD
20:04:05 <ais523> you should see some of the license headers in jettyplay
20:04:13 <ais523> even BSD requires you keep them
20:04:15 <zzo38> alise: I think it is required to keep them there on already existing source files. In any new source files you make you can omit it as long as it is still clear that they follow the same license
20:04:22 <alise> ais523: no, it requires licenses are kept with the software
20:04:24 <alise> i.e. LICENSE file.
20:04:28 <ais523> it requires that you don't delete copyright notices
20:04:39 <ais523> also, ridiculous that you accuse something like that of being FUD...
20:04:41 <zzo38> The file should be called COPYING if the license is the GNU GPL.
20:05:08 <alise> fine, can I change:
20:05:12 <alise> # aewm - Copyright 1998-2007 Decklin Foster <decklin@red-bean.com>.
20:05:17 <alise> # Originally from aewm - Copyright 1998-2007 Decklin Foster <decklin@red-bean.com>.
20:05:18 <alise> # oewm - Copyright 2010 Elliott Hird.
20:05:20 <alise> ais523: i misinterpreted you
20:05:29 <alise> i thought you meant licenses required inserting those headers
20:05:30 <ais523> yes, that's fine, and the sort of thing I normally do
20:05:35 <ais523> alise: no, don't require inserting
20:05:39 <zzo38> I am making also a _PLATFORM rule to tell it which platform of the computer the compiler is being running on. It uses #ifdef for that stuff. What are some of the macros that are defined for different kind of systems?
20:05:40 <ais523> just preserving existing ones
20:05:41 <alise> that's how i interpreted
20:05:55 <ais523> anyway, people are insisting on watching bad TV in this room, I'm going home
20:06:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:06:19 <zzo38> alise: No you can't do that you have to put the "# Originally from" on a separate line and the "# aewm"... on the next line
20:06:35 <alise> zzo38: now here I think you are wrong.
20:06:41 <alise> i retained the notice of copyright
20:07:23 <zzo38> If you put it on the same line you can be accused of writing things for wrong reason
20:07:33 <alise> I'm fairly sure what you're saying has no legal merit.
20:08:12 <pikhq> I'm not a lawyer, but I have read US copyright law.
20:08:20 <zzo38> And the "# aewm"... line still has to be somewhere near the top of the file (as in, above most or all of the program codes).
20:09:09 <alise> But I /can/ prepend "Originally", of that I am almost sure.
20:09:34 <zzo38> Then put a colon after "Originally from" to make it more clear
20:09:55 <alise> What legal weight does that carry?
20:10:17 <zzo38> Maybe nothing, but you have to be careful
20:10:36 <pikhq> alise: He's talking out of his anus.
20:11:05 <alise> pikhq: Hmm, what's the sed for "replace ae with oe unless it's /* ae"? Or do I need a fancy-shmancy regexp system with (?!...)?
20:11:14 <alise> I think there's some "nothing to see here, move along" command in sed, but I'm not sure what it is.
20:11:47 <zzo38> What C preprocessor macros for other platforms, other than __CYGWIN__ and _WIN32 are?
20:12:20 <alise> zzo38: macintosh for classical Mac OS
20:13:05 <zzo38> "macintosh" and "__linux__" all in lowercase?
20:13:35 <coppro> don't use platform macros that aren't reserved
20:13:50 <coppro> because you just support the idiots behind them
20:14:17 <zzo38> ? I am just using #ifdef only
20:14:21 <zzo38> What is it for Mac OS X?
20:14:44 <coppro> zzo38: yes, but "macintosh" is not a reserved identifier. By checking for it, you legitimize the decision to adopt it as a macro
20:15:01 <coppro> which should not be done, because no compiler should predefine a non-reserved identifier
20:15:47 <zzo38> I think all platform macros should start with __ and all uppercase, but since that isn't the case, we have to do with the way it is
20:16:53 <zzo38> I don't think they are reserved words in C
20:17:39 <coppro> "All identifiers that begin with an underscore and either an uppercase letter or another underscore are always reserved for any use."
20:18:14 <zzo38> I see section 3.7.3 now.
20:18:14 <Quadrescence> oh I misinterpreted, I thought you meant that "__linux__" is a standard macro
20:18:44 <zzo38> I still think they aren't reserved words in C, though. It just means that you should not expect that you can make functions and variables with those names
20:18:58 <zzo38> Because doing so, won't work.
20:19:27 <coppro> they're also reserved as macros
20:19:34 <coppro> "macintosh", however, is not
20:19:44 <coppro> so any complier that compiles with it predefined is not compliant
20:20:12 <zzo38> coppro: I agree with that.
20:20:48 <zzo38> But since my program doesn't use the word "macintosh" in any other way, using it with #ifdef for this purpose should be safe
20:21:05 <zzo38> Since it is used nowhere else other than #ifdef
20:21:06 <coppro> but you're then legitimizing the compiler's non-compliance!
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20:21:33 <zzo38> Of course I can add a comment (or documentation text) to the program explaining that it shouldn't be done but this is the way it has to be done anyways in this case
20:22:30 <zzo38> Currently the @<Codes for platform it is being compiled with@> section contains no documentation text or comments, but I might add a documentation text to explain about this non-compliance
20:23:14 <zzo38> @< begins a named section, which can then be transcluded into other sections.
20:23:27 <zzo38> (Usually only once, but it can be done multiple times if you might need to in some cases)
20:24:22 <zzo38> Sort of like bigger macros, but it can mave multiple lines without needed \ at the end, and you can define a named section multiple times, in which case it will use all of the definitions in order when transcluding into another section.
20:24:59 <zzo38> Now hopefully you can understand?
20:25:50 <alise> so anyone know what the command in sed is for "go to next line?
20:26:19 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:26:24 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB also adds a few extra capabilities of this mechanism as well that the standard CWEB doesn't have.
20:27:24 <alise> Okay, is there seriously no way to do this with sed?
20:27:37 <zzo38> In Enhanced CWEB: @$ starts a macro parameter for the next macro being transcluded (printed as a music natural sign), @3 to include the parameter value (printed as uppercase omega), and @4 to include the number of times this macro has been previously used (printed as uppercase delta).
20:27:45 <zzo38> alise: I think there is a "go to next line" command in sed
20:27:51 <alise> zzo38: yes, but i can't find it
20:27:53 <zzo38> See the GNU sed documentation
20:28:03 <zzo38> It is explained in there
20:28:08 <alise> not as far as i can se
20:28:29 <zzo38> It is explained in the info page. The man page doesn't explain it
20:28:34 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:28:43 <alise> Where? What command?
20:29:37 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:31:20 -!- relet has joined.
20:33:13 <zzo38> What other platform C preprocessor macros are there other than __CYGWIN__ __linux__ macintosh _WIN32 ?
20:33:27 <zzo38> Is there one for Mac OS X? What is it for FreeBSD?
20:34:33 <fizzie> I think OS X defines both __APPLE__ and __MACH__.
20:35:36 <zzo38> What is the best way to test for OS X? What does __APPLE__ and __MACH__ supposed to mean individually?
20:36:01 <fizzie> #if defined(__APPLE__) && defined(__MACH__)? (Just a guess.)
20:36:33 <zzo38> I can do that, but if there is something that __APPLE__ and __MACH__ are supposed to mean individually I can check?
20:36:42 <coppro> check the compiler docs imo
20:36:48 <pikhq> zzo38: __APPLE__ means it's OS X, __MACH__ means it's just something running on Mach.
20:36:56 <pikhq> And is defined by many, many things.
20:37:06 <zzo38> OK. Is just checking __APPLE__ good enough?
20:37:07 <pikhq> Mach was a popular microkernel for a while, you see.
20:37:40 <fizzie> __APPLE__ is defined on pre-X Mac OS versions too, I believe.
20:37:41 <zzo38> I do not care much about the kernel as long as the system works in the same way, that stuff can be compiled on it in the same way.
20:37:50 <fizzie> (Not that you're very likely to run across any.)
20:37:59 <pikhq> Yeah, __MACH__ is not very relevant.
20:39:04 <fizzie> You do need both if you want to avoid matching pre-X Mac OS. I think. I don't have a MPW installation I could check what it defines.
20:39:31 <pikhq> Pre-X Mac OS is a pain to support anyways.
20:39:34 <alise> #if defined(__APPLE__) && !defined(macintosh)
20:39:43 <alise> os x may not always be basde on mach after all
20:39:46 <alise> but it will always be apple :P
20:40:25 <zzo38> I believe programs compiled for Mac OS X use the GNU C compiler. I think GNU C compiler is probably included with Mac OS X. Although you need the Xcode program to write any proper software for Mac OS X that isn't a standard UNIX software
20:40:43 <zzo38> OK, so is your way the best way? Probably it is better
20:41:35 <zzo38> Currently I have Cygwin, Linux, Macintosh classic, Mac OS X, Win32.
20:41:42 <zzo38> I don't have FreeBSD listed in there yet.
20:43:04 <fizzie> The headers seem to get __FreeBSD__ defined.
20:43:17 <fizzie> According to http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/porters-handbook/porting-versions.html anyhow.
20:43:28 <zzo38> Are there any other systems that should be included in this list?
20:43:32 <fizzie> "__FreeBSD__ is defined in all versions of FreeBSD."
20:45:47 <zzo38> Are there any other rule variables that should be predefined? So far I have: _C_FILE _CTIME _CWD _PLATFORM _TEX_FILE _WEB_FILE
20:47:05 <zzo38> _WEB_FILE is mostly useful for if you need the file to point to itself, in case it is a program consisting of a single file, that you can compile with no other modules (other than possibly system libraries)
20:47:57 <zzo38> _CTIME just specifies the date/time of compiling.
20:48:37 <alise> pikhq: Should I remove virtual desktops from my amazing WM, do you think, or leave them for the sad, confuse dpeople who use them?
20:48:37 <zzo38> Maybe I can add a option +A to update all files even if it is already up to date
20:49:55 -!- LM7 has quit (Quit: Courage is your greatest present need.).
20:50:41 <zzo38> Maybe & # > prefix to tell it processing certain rules only in certain modes: & for tangle, # for weave, > for compile
20:51:10 <pikhq> alise: You should add all features.
20:51:22 <zzo38> Rules can have other prefixes as well: + only if a certain rule variable is defined, - if it is not already defined
20:52:49 <zzo38> And then some rule variables starting with _ and uppercase, but not predefined. These are used by CSPIDER to read and do stuff with it, such as what C compiler to use and what directory the CTANGLE and CWEAVE are in, and so on. They can be defined in a system include file _make.wi
20:53:43 <alise> pikhq: On a scale of 1 to 100, how incorrect is Œxcellent?
20:53:50 <alise> "oewm -- An Œxcellent Window Manager"
20:54:08 <alise> pikhq: Good; I'll use it.
20:54:11 <zzo38> I don't know. I don't think it is a real word. But you are not required to use real words if you prefer to make up words
20:55:24 <alise> Window managers shouldn't put their config files in /etc/X11/, should they?
20:57:54 <pikhq> If you do that you shall be reassigned to duty in Siberia, comrade!
20:58:11 <alise> Okay, things I need to do: Add more butans. Make alt+drag work. Add window borders.
21:08:13 <alise> Oh, and make it click-to-focus.
21:09:08 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:09:18 <alise> Actually, this is a pain.
21:09:25 <alise> pikhq: Give me the motivation to just Write My Own.
21:10:11 <pikhq> alise: Motivation injection, AWAY
21:10:24 <alise> pikhq: I meant messages of support.
21:14:20 <alise> I'd call it flwm but that's taken.
21:15:25 <pikhq> alise: You should be paid to just rewrite all of everything.
21:16:06 <alise> pikhq: Are you hiring?
21:16:06 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:16:40 <alise> wm upside down is mw
21:16:57 <alise> pronounced "mu", like micro
21:17:03 -!- wareya has joined.
21:17:40 <pikhq> Except more upside-down.
21:21:37 <alise> why is xfontsel so useless?
21:24:28 <alise> argh what is that fixed bitmap font called
21:25:29 <alise> you know the one i mean
21:25:40 <alise> http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png
21:25:45 <alise> in the menu and title bars
21:28:35 <alise> pikhq? do you know?
21:28:52 <alise> it's that font everyone uses :P
21:33:41 <alise> is there a reason other than windows that nobody uses .c++?
21:34:30 <zzo38> alise: I don't know. I think .cpp is used instead. Although sometimes .cxx is used but .cpp is supposed to be the standard today, I think.
21:36:30 <alise> .cc is quite common too...
21:37:27 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/HeNQ
21:41:13 <myndzi> alise: a disinclination to use symbols in filenames?
21:41:22 <myndzi> i know i'd choose letters over most symbols
21:41:30 <myndzi> excepting maybe _ and -
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21:44:39 <zzo38> I have seen programs which use two ^ signs with a section sign in between, as the extension for its files.
21:45:10 <zzo38> As well as with a paragraph sign in between, and one with a ampersand in between.
21:45:15 <Sgeo> Isn't .C used occasionally [as distinct from .c]
21:45:25 <oerjan> what is a section sign
21:45:33 <alise> oerjan: that's the S thing
21:45:36 <myndzi> zzo38: i suppose there's no accounting for some people's taste
21:45:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: Sometimes. But in my opinion it should not be used
21:45:56 <oerjan> alise: §? i thought _that_ was paragraph
21:46:22 <zzo38> oerjan: No that is a section sign
21:46:31 * Sgeo has forever associated that symbol with SimCity
21:46:32 <myndzi> paragraph is the backwards P with two lines
21:46:54 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C2%A7
21:47:00 <zzo38> See? It is section sign.
21:47:11 <Sgeo> It's the simolean sign!
21:47:49 <alise> pikhq: WHY DO YOU HAVE TO WRITE "LongThing *foo = new LongThing(...)"
21:47:55 <alise> WHY NOT "LongThing *foo = new(...)".
21:48:17 <Sgeo> According to wiki, "Simoleon". Although I was caught vaguely off-guard by that being notable
21:49:01 <oerjan> zzo38: ah i see. it's called paragraf in norwegian, and apparently swedish http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraftecken (no norwegian wp page)
21:49:02 <pikhq> alise: LongThing *foo = new OtherLongThing(...)
21:49:18 <alise> pikhq: That can still be supported but DAMMIT.
21:49:18 <pikhq> Don't you hate their solution to polymorphism?
21:49:37 <Sgeo> var foo = new LongThing(...);
21:49:41 <pikhq> Why can't it be "foo = new LongThing(...)"?
21:50:33 <alise> * "none" - This is the default look-n-feel which resembles old Windows (95/98/Me/NT/2000) and old GTK/KDE
21:50:33 <alise> * "plastic" - This scheme is inspired by the Aqua user interface on Mac OS X
21:50:33 <alise> * "gtk+" - This scheme is inspired by the Red Hat Bluecurve theme
21:50:37 <alise> AnMaster: an answer
21:50:48 <zzo38> pikhq: I think C++0x might be able to do that
21:51:05 <zzo38> But I don't use C++ or C++0x, so I don't quite know
21:52:03 <oerjan> pikhq: confusing declaration and assignment is bad for scoping
22:00:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Assignment? Assignment?
22:00:38 <pikhq> What is this "assignment"?
22:01:07 <oerjan> pikhq: object oriented language usually have that
22:11:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:13:38 <alise> Iain B. Findleton has created a Tcl binding to the Fltk widget set, which is similar in nature to Tk, but is not directly Tk. He advertises, "An Fltk script is about 20 percent [!] the size of a Tk script for the same kind of functionality."
22:13:42 <alise> Tempting... very tempting.
22:14:04 <Gregor> FLTK is somewhere between terrible and awesome.
22:14:12 <alise> Gregor: So is everything XD
22:14:15 <Gregor> Where exactly varies on a minute-to-minute basis.
22:14:22 <alise> Gregor: FLTK is definitely awesome apart from it being C++.
22:14:30 <alise> If it was something other than C++, it would be awesome.
22:14:38 <alise> Not with the default scheme, mind.
22:14:44 <alise> But the "GTK+" scheme makes it look good.
22:16:42 <AnMaster> I remember bluecurve. Hated it.
22:16:50 <alise> AnMaster: But my screenshot is nicer than bluecurve.
22:16:57 <alise> In fact it's nothing like BlueCurve.
22:17:35 <pikhq> alise: So, it's got a Tk like binding but simpler? Awesome.
22:17:38 <alise> In fact all FLTK needs is to be written in C and I'd use it for everything :P
22:17:41 -!- p_q has joined.
22:17:45 <alise> pikhq: http://wiki.tcl.tk/1826
22:17:47 <pikhq> Tk in Tcl, BTW, is like the best GUI API ever.
22:18:02 <pikhq> It lacks bullshit! It completely lacks it!
22:18:07 <alise> Bitrot, though. Last release 107 days ago.
22:18:12 <alise> pikhq: Except for the actual interfaces produced.
22:18:16 <alise> Which have great amounts of bullshit.
22:18:19 <alise> Also, "pack" is bullshit.
22:18:27 <pikhq> alise: Thus why I'm specifying the *API*.
22:18:33 <pikhq> Pack is just one of the layout managers.
22:18:51 <pikhq> There's also grid and place.
22:18:54 <alise> pikhq: And apart from Ttk, which requires STUPIDLY PREFIXING EVERYTHING whereas it should just /be in place of the old widgets/.
22:19:06 <pikhq> alise: Yes, that's fucking retarded.
22:19:33 <alise> I do note that Tk should really be separate from Tcl, though.
22:19:42 <alise> I mean, I get the historical reasons, but bindings suck because they have to run Tcl and shit.
22:19:52 <alise> And nobody really likes Tcl any more. pikhq: do you even like Tcl any more?
22:20:00 <pikhq> I still do like Tcl.
22:20:06 <alise> Okay, but you're crazy.
22:20:28 <pikhq> It's one of the more flexible languages when it comes to metaprogramming.
22:20:32 <alise> In the game of "one datatype to rule them all", strings come not just last, but in infinitieth place.
22:20:57 <pikhq> There's a lot of things Tcl sucks at, though.
22:21:02 <pikhq> Not much of a general-purpose language.
22:21:58 <alise> As far as I'm concerned Tcl is just like Scheme except it rapes lexical scope with hideous abominations like uplevel and doesn't have a proper data type :P
22:22:42 <pikhq> Could fix it all and still count as Tcl. :P
22:22:55 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait. The string rewriting stuff is the *definition* of Tcl.
22:22:59 <pikhq> Can fix the scope though.
22:23:17 <alise> Yeah, but *Scheme is that definition of Tcl applied to a data structure that actually makes sense*.
22:23:47 <alise> Sure, Scheme relies on macros and special forms to do the {} "quoting", but you could easily just pass it all as (quote ...).
22:24:27 <alise> pikhq: Can I pay you to write a WM that doesn't suck?
22:25:00 <alise> [[We spent the first hour gabbing about all sorts of political and organizational issues of a fairly boring and mundane nature. Partway through, Jon Orwant comes in, and stands there for a few minutes listening, and then he very calmly walks over to the coffee service table in the corner, and there were about 20 of us in the room, and he picks up a coffee mug and throws it against the other wall and he keeps throwing coffee mugs against the other wall, and h
22:25:00 <alise> e says "we are fucked unless we can come up with something that will excite the community, because everyone's getting bored and going off and doing other things".]]
22:25:28 <alise> [[And he was right. His motivation was, perhaps, to make bigger Perl conferences, or he likes Perl doing well, or something like that. But in actual fact he was right, so that sort of galvanized the meeting. He said "I don't care what you do, but you gotta do something big." And then he went away.
22:25:28 <alise> Don't misunderstand me. This was the most perfectly planned tantrum you have ever seen. If any of you know Jon, he likes control. This was a perfectly controlled tantrum. It was amazing to see. I was thinking, "should I get up and throw mugs too?"]]
22:27:01 <alise> http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/archives/img/2003_08/p6_cover.jpg best animal ever
22:29:38 <alise> "Everything about Perl 6 has been a soap opera, from mugs being thrown in meetings, to the Pugs lead developer getting a gender change and then disappearing, to Rakudo Star being hyped endlessly well before it has been released."
22:29:40 <alise> that should be made
22:34:23 <Gregor> I love the ... mystery animal.
22:35:16 <alise> Deersnakecamelbutterflychameleonchicken.
22:35:37 <alise> Ceerflymelekenake.
22:40:24 <Gregor> alise: Where is that quote from?
22:40:35 <alise> http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40451
22:40:41 <alise> or the soap opera one?
22:40:50 <alise> in other news, Jon Orwant is now my hero :P
22:40:54 <alise> when in doubt, throw cups at wall
22:43:03 <alise> Ilari: go into nutrition smartass mode plz http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/06/04/humanfood/ :-D
22:43:15 <alise> Gregor: the rest of the comment was just boring "perl is irrelevant blah" shit
22:43:19 <alise> it's just from reddit
22:43:28 <alise> audrey tang really did change gender though
22:43:45 -!- Madk has joined.
22:43:48 <alise> and perl 6 would make a hilariously bad soap opera
22:44:16 <Madk> I wrote an esoteric programming language, and I'd like some feedback if that's ok
22:44:48 <alise> put it on the wiki -- http://esolangs.org
22:44:58 <alise> don't worry if you don't think it's very good, the wiki is basically a repository of crap anyway :)
22:45:03 <alise> (put it on after telling us, of course)
22:45:03 <Madk> Information is at this forum post: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13945.0
22:45:15 <alise> what is it with tigsource that generates so many esolangs?
22:45:42 <Madk> It's based a lot on 6052 assembly.
22:45:53 <alise> "Out of curiosity, what are you using/ what method are you using that makes them so easy to make?" ;; heh
22:45:57 <alise> How do I shot interpreter.
22:46:06 <Madk> last post on the page
22:46:36 <alise> that zip, does it contain source code or just a binary?
22:46:52 <alise> almost nobody here runs windows, so it should probably be the former
22:47:06 <alise> indeed just binary
22:47:15 <Ilari> alise: Ugh. "Single food that has everything you need" is way difficult. And worse yet, it varies a bit from person to person.
22:47:17 <Madk> I'll include the source shortly
22:47:35 <alise> Madk: how soon's shortly? we can't comment on it until you do :)
22:47:56 <Madk> In about 30 seconds :P
22:48:30 <Madk> ok, download it from the same link
22:48:31 <alise> Ilari: some of the people in the comments are suggesting monkey feed :-P
22:48:40 <Madk> there's now a "source" folder.
22:49:11 <Madk> It's written in BlitzMax - there's a free compiler demo, but it costs $80.
22:49:19 <Madk> the full compiler, I mean
22:49:22 <Madk> demo is free :P
22:49:40 <alise> source isn't there for me
22:49:47 <alise> oh. i was assuming C
22:50:09 <Madk> There should be a source folder in the download
22:50:11 <alise> unexpectedly, it seems to have a linux version.
22:50:14 <Ilari> alise: And it also depends on amount of excercise you are getting. If you are doing high excercise, you need loads of energy but (relative to energy) less other nutrients. But if you are doing low excercise, sure you could just use UCPs to deal with the excess energy, but that's not exactly healthy to do a lot, and worse yet, the food needs to be more nutrious w.r.t. energy content.
22:50:15 <alise> Madk: indeed; there isn't
22:50:29 <Madk> alise: yeah, it's got mac, win, and linux
22:50:36 <alise> Ilari: i'm just absorbing all this knowledge
22:50:49 <alise> Ilari: http://www.angryman.ca/monkey.html comments on this?
22:50:52 <Sgeo> Whee, another thing that's broken is the browser's ability to tell FoxIt to load a PDF
22:51:11 <alise> "Monkey-like Attributes: considerable body hair" :-)
22:51:16 <Madk> I just downloaded it myself and there's the source right there.
22:51:26 <Madk> from http://floatation.webs.com/M-Code.zip right?
22:52:02 <Madk> perhaps just try again? Maybe the file hadn't updated by the time you hit the link.
22:52:04 <alise> Mood: a touch manic
22:52:05 <alise> Poop: still regular, still smelly
22:52:05 <alise> Monkey-like Attributes: moderate desire to fling poop
22:52:22 <alise> Madk: there it is.
22:52:55 <alise> "SuperStrict". Makes me wonder what plain "Strict" is.
22:53:24 <alise> Madk: So basically it's a mini assembly with symbols for command names, yeah?
22:53:32 <Ilari> alise: Well, the ranges for nutrients are so wide that one could assume low excercise (just some extra nutrients in high-energy case).
22:53:42 <alise> "Poop: problematic"
22:54:06 <alise> Madk: Except with ... strings, inexplicably.
22:54:29 <alise> Wow, it has file support. Talk about some high-powered assembly.
22:54:53 <Ilari> Yeah, low soluble fiber and low MCTs tend to do nasty things to ones digestion.
22:54:57 <Madk> alise: Nomral means you don't have to declare variables before usage. They default to 0, or in the case of strings, "". Strict forces you to declare your variables, but not their type, which is detected by the compiler automatically. SuperStrict forces you to also specify int, byte, short, string, an object class, etc.
22:56:01 <Madk> alise: also, string support isn't very robust. It's hardly any more than BrainF*ck's support.
22:57:10 <alise> Madk: Brainfuck has no string support.
22:57:55 <Madk> that's the extent of M-Code, except you can define the two strings in memory pre-runtime
22:58:08 <Madk> using plain text
22:58:19 -!- tombom__ has joined.
22:58:33 <Madk> the hello world example shows it well
22:58:50 <Madk> the symbols H, e, l, etc. simply represent those ASCII codes.
22:59:04 <Madk> That's why [65] and A are interchangable
23:00:05 <Madk> The only discernment between command and argument is position.
23:00:41 <Ilari> alise: About that experiment, it seems that the food is deficent in something... I think it is designed for digestive system far beyond human one...
23:01:11 <Madk> ilari: what exactly are you talking about? :P
23:01:16 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:01:28 <Ilari> Madk: http://www.angryman.ca/monkey.html
23:01:49 <alise> Ilari is our resident person who knows everything about nutrition that nutritionists don't.
23:01:56 <alise> That's his official title.
23:02:10 <Ilari> alise: Hey, I'm not a biochemist.
23:02:27 <alise> Yes, but we don't have a biochemist.
23:02:29 <alise> So we'll settle for you.
23:03:39 <Ilari> When it comes to real hard questions, like: "What in diet causes all the 'diseases of civilization'", I really do not know.
23:04:46 <Madk> So.. I suppose I'll be putting M-Code on the wiki?
23:05:26 <Ilari> BTW: the extra energy to run the human brain (compared to other primates) is taken from digestive system. Human digestive system is quite bad.
23:06:10 <alise> Ilari: Is it necessarily true that diet causes all disease? One issue with it being true is that it's plainly false.
23:06:34 <alise> I suggest we implant a monkey digestive system into a human. :-)
23:08:01 <Ilari> alise: "Diseases of civilization" are quite specific group of diseases (through these appear to include previously unknown diseases). And these diseases appear to be quite strongly linked to diet (what exactly in it is not known).
23:09:07 <Ilari> alise: There's a lot of diseases that are not "diseases of civilization".
23:09:37 <alise> Ilari: Ah, I didn't know that name for it.
23:09:39 <pikhq> Civilization itself has only really changed our levels of physical activity, our exposure to toxic chemicals, and our diet...
23:09:55 <pikhq> So, really, "diseases of civilization" could only possibly come from those.
23:10:24 <alise> Ilari: So, just out of curiosity, what's your basic recommendations for diet from what you know?
23:12:24 <Ilari> Well, my recomendations (based on my current knowledge): avoid grains, avoid soft fats avoid sugar.
23:13:07 <Ilari> Those tend to be the strongest suspects.
23:13:18 <Sgeo> ...avoid grains?
23:13:22 <alise> And prefer? (as in opposite to avoid)
23:13:29 -!- nooga has joined.
23:13:35 <Sgeo> Is that for everyone, or just overweight people?
23:13:45 <alise> Sgeo: presumably everyone
23:14:05 <Ilari> Well, overweight people have additional considerations.
23:14:13 * Sgeo is underweight
23:14:40 <Ilari> Sorry, don't know ways to increase body fat that aren't dangerous...
23:15:11 <Ilari> Oh yeah, and avoid soy too.
23:15:35 <alise> Ilari: So are there any specific foods to prefer? I'd assume there must be, since just eating random stuff that aren't the things to avoid seems very stupid.
23:16:02 <Sgeo> Used to drink a lot of Ensure when I was young. It was practically my lunch every day
23:16:11 <Sgeo> I think Ensure uses soy
23:16:11 <Ilari> There are some people that when presented with "fattening" foods don't get fat, they get type 2 diabetes.
23:16:37 <alise> Ilari will not reveal the secret of what to eat!
23:16:45 <Ilari> Well, there are ways to make soy and grains edible...
23:16:48 <Sgeo> What's wrong with grains?
23:17:09 <nooga> isn't Ensure that vanilla flavd powder?
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23:17:41 <Ilari> Sgeo: Toxins and antinutrients. And besides, they aren't that good in minerals and vitamins.
23:18:09 <alise> nooga: no, ensure is a "nutritionally balanced drink"
23:18:15 <alise> (i was forced to go on it recently)
23:18:19 <Sgeo> So, a box of pasta a day isn't healthy?
23:18:22 <alise> it tastes disgusting and probably isn't all that well-balanced.
23:18:35 <Sgeo> alise, I loved the taste, iirc
23:18:48 <nooga> yuck, replacement for food
23:18:51 <alise> maybe it tastes better when you're doing it voluntarily.
23:18:55 <alise> nooga: not everyone enjoys food.
23:19:08 <alise> nooga: you're probably killing yourself with what you eat (at least based on my impression of your personality)
23:19:10 -!- alise has left (?).
23:19:12 -!- alise has joined.
23:19:13 <nooga> but food is tasty, I love to eat
23:19:20 <alise> not everyone does.
23:19:25 <alise> and you're probably not eating very well, either
23:19:26 * Sgeo would love for there to be a drink that he could drink a certain number of times a day and not need to eat anything else
23:19:57 <alise> I like eating some things, but I'd be fine with being kept healthy and not feeling hungry, then having eating be a thing I do for pleasure.
23:20:14 <nooga> alise: I like mediterranean cuisine
23:20:14 <Sgeo> Also, I think I should start taking vitamins. I know the statement that people who eat properly don't need vitamin suppliments, but I don't think I eat properly
23:20:29 <alise> Sgeo: multivitamins are harmful
23:20:38 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of one story one doctor told: Patient came to him and thought he (the patient) was underweight and wanted to gain weight. Well, the doctor prescribed drink that had 100g of fat per drink, one drink per day. Well, turns out the plan didn't work (but didn't go horribly wrong)...
23:20:40 <alise> and if not harmful, useless.
23:20:41 <nooga> so olives, tomatoes, white cheese, white bread, pasta, seafood, pork
23:20:49 <alise> therefore do not take multivitamins.
23:21:07 <Sgeo> useless period, or useless for people who eat properly?
23:21:25 <alise> See the multiple large studies cited in “Vitamin Pills: A False Hope?”; note that at least 3 studies showed increased disease & mortality rates associated with multivitamin usage, and Wikipedia mentions a few downbeat reports & commissions.↩]]
23:21:26 <alise> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/health/17well.html?_r=1
23:21:31 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivitamin#Evidence_against
23:21:52 <alise> Sgeo: tl;dr useless, can be harmful. Don't bother.
23:22:03 <Ilari> And why didn't that plan work: Because fat isn't fattening.
23:22:10 <alise> Ilari: and the doctor didn't know this?
23:22:24 <alise> Ilari: he should suffer severe repercussions...
23:22:58 <Ilari> alise: Well, he asked some biochemist afterwards why that didn't work. The biochemist was baffled too.
23:23:09 <Sgeo> "However, the report noted that multivitamins have beneficial effects in people with poor nutritional status..."
23:23:20 <Sgeo> Although I guess I should read citations for stuff like this
23:23:27 <zzo38> I looked at the IOCCC makefiles. It includes a rule "love" that writes "not war?" on the screen
23:23:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, what's self-contradictory about the Free World License?
23:24:07 <alise> Sgeo: why is it that whenever you ask a question, you have one answer in mind and are only looking for affirmation of this answer, while ignoring contrary evidence?
23:24:10 <Ilari> alise: Well, as said, the experiment didn't apparently do anything good nor anything bad.
23:24:27 <nooga> Ilari: yep, my mom eats fat things and avoids carbohydrates and she's thin
23:24:54 <alise> Ilari: yeah, but that kind of incompetence
23:25:04 <alise> everyone knows it's carbs that causes fat.
23:25:21 <zzo38> Sgeo: A few things are. But it contains various stupid things that won't work very well (regardless of whether or not the definition of "Free Platform" is relaxed or not)
23:25:44 <zzo38> The license is incompatible with itself.
23:26:10 <alise> [[ Linda is 31 years old, single, outspoken and very bright. She majored in philosophy. As a student, she was deeply concerned with issues of discrimination and social justice, and also participated in antinuclear demonstrations.
23:26:10 <alise> What is the probability that Linda is:
23:26:10 <alise> (b) a bank teller and active in the feminist movement]]
23:26:24 <alise> Answer. (Do not say why you chose an answer in case you bias other people.)
23:26:31 <Sgeo> I've seen it before
23:26:49 <alise> Then don't answer.
23:27:04 <zzo38> I don't know the answer.
23:27:13 <alise> zzo38: But what do you think the answer is?
23:27:24 <zzo38> I don't know! I will just guess:
23:27:36 <alise> 42 isn't a valid probability and there are two questions.
23:27:38 <zzo38> I just have to make a wild guess because I don't know how to figure out the answer
23:27:40 <Sgeo> I think the question should ask if one is liklier than the other
23:27:43 <Ilari> But the fact that human digestive system is crap doesn't mean one can't do well with wide variety of diets. Well, at least if one gets all the needed energy, amino acids and other micronutrients and doesn't eat a lot of stuff that is 1) too hard to digest or 2) Messes with metabolism.
23:28:00 <zzo38> OK fine the answer is "c"
23:28:07 <zzo38> (Of course that is not a valid answer either)
23:28:07 <alise> zzo38: the whole point is your intuition; you don't have to say e.g. "0.75"
23:28:22 <alise> just things like ">50%" "a bit more than the other one" "a bit less"
23:28:57 <Madk> Whoopiedoo http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/M-code
23:29:05 <zzo38> These are not the kind of things I know about
23:29:10 <nooga> if P_a = 0.1 then even if P_feminist = 0.99, it comes out that P_b < 0.1
23:29:14 <zzo38> So I really have no way to even guess an answer
23:29:29 <zzo38> nooga: Yes that is
23:29:37 <alise> nooga: remember when I said "don't give reasoning"?
23:29:52 <alise> that's because explaining it stops me measuring how many people here get it wrong :P
23:30:02 <alise> many many people get it wrong IRL, but the type here is more intelligent, so...
23:30:03 <Ilari> Hunter-Gatherer diets vary from almost zero-carbohydrate and super-high-fat diets to low-fat diets.
23:30:13 <zzo38> Of course I saw that too, that P_b <= P_a
23:30:23 <zzo38> But that doesn't tell me what the actual numbers are
23:30:23 <alise> zzo38: A lot of people IRL say P_b > P_a.
23:30:31 <zzo38> Most likely P_b < P_a
23:30:33 <alise> Because they think "oh, sounds feministy from the description; probably b then"
23:30:47 <alise> Ilari: Ooh... I have an awesome idea... you know the miracle fruit?
23:30:50 <Sgeo> Ilari, is a box of pasta + some parmesan cheese a day out of the question?
23:31:00 <alise> Ilari: The one that makes everything taste sweet afterwards.
23:31:16 * Sgeo has never tried it, sadtly
23:31:16 <Ilari> Sgeo: Depends on what kind of pasta...
23:31:26 <alise> Ilari: If it has little to no nutritional effect (low sugar content), you could make any diet pleasant by simply eating it before not-so-nice-tasting foods.
23:31:27 <Sgeo> Ilari, pasta varies in more than shape???
23:32:52 <Ilari> Useful test to know what kind of carbs one can't eat: Measure the peak blood glucose after meal. Don't eat foods that cause it to rise too high.
23:33:31 <Sgeo> Not sure how I'd get my hands on such equipment, I'm not a diabetic
23:33:39 <Sgeo> [as far as I know]
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23:34:24 <Ilari> alise: Oh, and milk you drink (if you drink milk) is probably whole mik?
23:35:45 <alise> Ilari: Indeed; bad, I presume?
23:36:03 <alise> I don't drink much milk usually, but the unit are demanding I do, and of course whole milk they demand.
23:36:10 <alise> GLORIOUS PROTEIN AND CALCIUM.
23:36:37 * Sgeo would like to see a source for Ilari's claims other than Ilari, tbh
23:36:58 <nooga> i think that milk is not too good for older mammals
23:38:37 <pikhq> nooga: Being Germanic, mwahahah I can digest milk still.
23:39:03 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
23:39:04 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ ▄▄▀█ █ ▄▄▄ █
23:39:04 <alise> █ ███ █ █▀ ▄▀ █ ███ █
23:39:04 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ ▄▀█▀█ █▄▄▄▄▄█
23:39:04 <alise> ▄▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄▄██▄ ▄▄▄ ▄
23:39:04 <alise> ▀▄▄ ██▄ ▀▄█▄▀█ ▄▀▀▀▄█
23:39:06 <alise> ▀ ████▄ █▀▀▀▄ ▄▄▀▀ ▀▄
23:39:08 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▀▄▄▀▀▀▄ █ ▀ ▀
23:39:10 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ █▄ ▀█ █▄███
23:39:12 <alise> █ ███ █ █ ▄█▀▄▄ ▀█▀
23:39:14 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ █ ██▄███▀ ▄ ▀
23:39:59 <alise> pikhq: it's a QR code!
23:40:26 <coppro> nah, you got some of the spacing wrong
23:41:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:41:02 <nooga> but should it be displayed white on black or vice versa?
23:41:12 <pikhq> alise: Any reason for the QR code?
23:41:14 <alise> coppro: not on a monospaced font
23:41:17 <alise> coppro: i used a proper generator
23:41:21 -!- augur has joined.
23:41:25 <alise> nooga: black on white
23:41:28 <coppro> alise: Yes, in a monospaced font
23:41:29 <alise> pikhq: http://www.asciiqr.com/
23:41:41 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄ ▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
23:41:41 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ ▀▄ ▀ █ ▄▄▄ █
23:41:41 <alise> █ ███ █ ▀ ▄█▄ █ ███ █
23:41:41 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ █▀█ █ █▄▄▄▄▄█
23:41:41 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▀▀█▄ ▄ ▄ ▄
23:41:42 <alise> ▀▄▀ █▄▄ █▄▀▄ ▀▄▄▄▄▀
23:41:44 <alise> █▀█▀▄█▄▀ ▄ ▄ ▄ ▀█ █ ▄
23:41:46 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █ ▀▀█▀█▄ ▀ ▄▀
23:41:48 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ ▄▀█▀█▀▀▄ ▀▄ ▀
23:41:48 <Ilari> ASCII? That looks more like unicode... :-)
23:41:50 <alise> █ ███ █ █▀ ▄▀▄ ▀▄▄█
23:41:52 <coppro> the second line is off
23:41:52 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ ██▄▄ ▄ ▀█▄█▄
23:41:56 <alise> maybe your unicode font sucks.
23:42:00 <alise> the page mentions so
23:42:17 <alise> coppro: well, the issue is not mine.
23:42:21 <coppro> the second line has the right-hand box dedendted
23:42:22 * Sgeo growls at Ilari and coppro's interruption
23:42:23 <alise> and it is fine on the site
23:42:31 <alise> your unicode font sucks
23:42:42 <alise> Sgeo: interruption of what?
23:42:42 <coppro> it does look fine on the site to me
23:42:55 <Sgeo> The first one said Hello, world! in case anyone cared
23:42:56 <coppro> no, alise, it is fixed-width
23:43:00 <Sgeo> alise, the qr code
23:43:11 <alise> coppro: then either my client or your client is doing something
23:43:24 <pikhq> alise: Appears fine here.
23:43:29 <coppro> I do not know what, though
23:44:31 <zzo38> Except this client displays blue on black, instead of black on white
23:44:38 <zzo38> But other than that it displays it OK
23:44:52 <alise> http://tinyurl.com/32gn6c4
23:45:02 <alise> (Brought to you by Abusing TinyURL + data: To Store Data Productions.)
23:45:07 <alise> http://zxing.org/w/decode.jspx might help.
23:46:37 <zzo38> Now we can rewrite this ASCII QR code in QBASIC or in machine codes for DOS computers (.COM file). And then it can run on FreeDOS
23:47:07 <zzo38> And it can be done for even displaying black text on white background, by setting the text colors on the screen
23:47:25 <alise> zzo38: Well, you can.
23:47:42 <zzo38> alise: Maybe I will
23:47:57 <alise> Why not write it in Pascal or C, though?
23:48:07 <pikhq> Man. Passing data: to TinyURL. Brilliant.
23:48:07 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:48:19 <alise> pikhq: Indeed. And also probably against every item in their TOS.
23:48:31 <alise> BTW, google "data URI kitchen" -- browser frozen atm -- for Hixie's wonderful tool.
23:48:36 <alise> Tick base64 for smaller URIs.
23:48:40 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:48:58 <coppro> alise: "may only be used for actual URLs"
23:48:59 <alise> URI-encoding The Metamorphosis: not my greatest idea.
23:48:59 <zzo38> Have you possibly seen: Gavin operating system?
23:49:00 <zzo38> This is a 32-bit multitasking operating system for x86 computers,
23:49:04 <coppro> it's not our fault if they don't know what a URL is
23:49:05 <alise> coppro: Yep; happily disregarded.
23:49:05 <pikhq> alise: Actually, their TOS is easy.
23:49:06 <zzo38> with GUI and filesystem, support for loading and executing user
23:49:09 <Sgeo> Chrome doesn't seem to like it
23:49:11 <zzo38> applications in elf binary format, with ps2 mouse and keyboard drivers,
23:49:15 <zzo38> and vesa graphics. And a command shell. And an application -
23:49:17 <coppro> data:// is a perfectly valid URL
23:49:19 <zzo38> a simple text-file viewer.
23:49:22 <pikhq> It may only be used for actual URLs and legal purposes.
23:49:28 <alise> Request-URI Too Large
23:49:28 <alise> The requested URL /chart... is too large to process.
23:49:32 <alise> FUCK YOU GOOGLE PROCESS IT BITCH.
23:49:35 <alise> pikhq: no, it isn't
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23:49:39 <zzo38> data: is a valid URL but it has to have some data after it
23:49:46 <alise> it doesn't locate a resource, therefore it is not a URL.
23:49:56 <alise> well, arguably on the boundary
23:50:03 <alise> it can be used to display a resource, but it doesn't /locate/ one
23:50:15 <zzo38> OK. It doesn't locate a resource. But it does return a resource
23:50:27 <zzo38> Consisting of the data contained in the URL/URI line
23:51:00 <zzo38> Other URL/URIs consist only of actions and have no returned file, such as telnet: and javascript:
23:51:42 * Sgeo wonders if javascript: could really be considered a URI, or if we need an even more general name
23:51:44 <zzo38> Gavin operating system must be compiled using a special C program in the IOCCC. The C program is 3.5K long but the actual operating system program is very short.
23:52:00 <Sgeo> How much more general can we get?
23:52:29 <zzo38> Javascript is not a resource at all. But a telnet session is a pointer to a computer that you can connect to using the telnet protocol.
23:52:55 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:53:01 <zzo38> They put // afterward because it is for the name (or number) of the computer, and optionally port number, to connect to, to access it.
23:53:24 <zzo38> PHP does :// for other URLs as well, but in my opinion they shouldn't.
23:54:00 <Sgeo> People like disobeying standards for U..s
23:54:46 <pikhq> X11 HAS DECIDED TO LOCK ON CAPS LOCK
23:54:56 <pikhq> NOTE THAT I DON'T HAVE CAPS LOCK TO SPEAK OF...
23:54:57 <zzo38> But file: is three slashes because the section for computer to connect to is blank. (I suppose you can still have a computer name there, in case it is a network resource or whatever that uses a standard filesystem access)
23:55:21 <coppro> btw, in the future, I'm referring to ISO standards by URI
23:57:31 <pikhq> Why the hell did it do that...
23:57:32 <zzo38> How many bits should I need to make a hypernet key? (There are different kinds of hypernet keys, DS (digital signature) and S (static data) is two of them)
23:58:35 <zzo38> Also: Is there a MIME type for HTTP responses?
23:59:22 * Sgeo wonders what a hypernet key is
23:59:57 <alise> pikhq: Because X is retarded.
00:00:16 <alise> pikhq: Ξ Windows won't have that problem.
00:00:31 <alise> Or is it Ψ Windows?
00:00:44 <Sgeo> Neither will MS Windows
00:00:45 <zzo38> hypernet:<access_type>/<routing_data>/<key_mode>.<key_data>[.<key_numeric_1>.<key_numeric_2>][/<subkey_data>]
00:01:34 <pikhq> alise: "Hmm. No caps lock key. SET IT ON! FUCK YEAH!"
00:01:55 <Sgeo> Someone should make a ... thingy that X11 is one of, that's compatible with X but supports.. betterness
00:01:55 <alise> pikhq: So, do tell me. What exactly is 2D acceleration except for "not having a stupid graphical server in between me and the hardware"?
00:02:11 <alise> Sgeo: being compatible with X11 implies suckiness.
00:02:37 <pikhq> alise: You can request that the hardware render things to the framebuffer instead of your CPU.
00:02:45 <Sgeo> Only thingies that use the X compatibility need suck!
00:02:53 <zzo38> Hypernet URLs are case-insensitive (normally all uppercase except the "hypernet:" at the beginning), access_type is alphabetical, routing_data is zero or more unbounded nonnegative integers with dots in between, key_mode is alphabetical, key_data is alphabetical, key_numeric_ is numeric, subkey_data alternates numerics and alphabetics seperated by dots (starting with numeric).
00:02:57 <alise> pikhq: You mean that isn't how it usually works?
00:03:15 <alise> pikhq: Surely the video card just maps a certain part of memory to video memory?
00:03:25 <pikhq> alise: Without 2D acceleration, you write to the framebuffer. And that's all.
00:03:51 <pikhq> With 2D acceleration, you can have the video card itself perform operations onto the framebuffer.
00:03:56 <Ilari> zzo38: Is there some page describing that?
00:04:05 <alise> Surely CPUs are so fast nowadays that for 2D it doesn't matter...
00:04:48 <pikhq> Scaling, antialiasing, rotating, alpha channel...
00:05:04 <coppro> apparently there's an shttp
00:05:13 <alise> pikhq: And ... the video card is faster at these than a modern CPU ... how?
00:05:15 <zzo38> Ilari: No. Not yet
00:05:17 <alise> That's just .. vector operations.
00:05:23 <alise> I mean, for 3D, yes. But for 2D?
00:05:34 <pikhq> alise: Video cards are exceptionally, exceptionally good at vector operations.
00:05:46 <pikhq> Oh, oh. Also, color space changes.
00:05:48 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but...
00:06:01 <alise> pikhq: How complex would a 2D game have to be for the speed of these operations on a modern CPU vs video card to matter?
00:06:07 <pikhq> It was much more relevant 10 years ago than it is today.
00:06:09 <alise> And would it be humanly playable?
00:06:43 <alise> pikhq: Also question: Why are mouse buttons treat as anything but special keypresses?
00:06:53 <Ilari> zzo38: What is even goal of hypernet keys? DS is probably indirecting request to data using signatures and static data is probably binding via hash.
00:07:01 <pikhq> alise: Basically, the only thing that matters much with 2D acceleration any more involves video.
00:07:27 <alise> pikhq: You're telling me a CPU can't sustain 30 fps?
00:07:35 <alise> With super-optimised memcpy to video memory, say?
00:07:56 <pikhq> Transforming CMYK to RGB, or video scaling, or actual video display from an MPEG stream.
00:08:13 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but it takes CPU time that could be better spent doing something else.
00:08:32 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but on the other hand, this speed obsession produces DRIVERS.
00:08:35 <pikhq> Or, in the case of Flash (which implements all this piss-poorly), doing *fuck all*.
00:08:37 <alise> Have you ever used video drivers? Do you still have a soul?
00:08:47 <alise> I am pretty sure the answers are "yes, no" and this is no coincidence.
00:09:16 * Sgeo decides he should ignore alise's idea of morality, unless it's code morality
00:09:27 <pikhq> alise: If you are only going to use well-written software for video rendering, then there is no need for 2D acceleration on vaguely modern hardware.
00:09:30 <alise> Sgeo: what is my idea of morality?
00:09:52 <alise> pikhq: Right then. No hardware accel. in Arbitrary Greek Letter Windows.
00:10:00 <pikhq> For instance: mplayer is exceptionally good at displaying video.
00:10:07 <pikhq> Flash sucks giant donkey balls at it.
00:10:13 <alise> pikhq: (3D will be handled firstly, not at all, and later, by letting you say "Okay, I am going to do insane shit now".)
00:10:36 <Sgeo> YOu seem to have implied that using video card drivers is immoral. Whether it is or not, using blobs is pretty much a necessity
00:10:40 <alise> (The WM will then be expected to hand over a chunk of raw video memory corresponding to your window, and access to the video hardware, to you.)
00:10:43 <pikhq> alise: Oh, you can handle 3D just fine. Just use Mesa.
00:10:45 <alise> Sgeo: I did not imply that.
00:10:56 <alise> I implied that using video drivers is fucking painful.
00:11:01 <alise> They break a lot and they suck.
00:11:13 <alise> pikhq: That's slow. :P
00:11:14 <pikhq> If Mesa wants to do crazy shit instead of just software rendering, well, that's it's darned mess.
00:11:33 <pikhq> alise: Mesa is the backend for all free-software 3D.
00:11:45 <alise> pikhq: I thought you meant software rendering.
00:11:51 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, how does Mesa handle acceleration in a window?
00:11:54 <alise> Is the answer "not"?
00:11:57 <pikhq> Mesa does 3D in general.
00:12:29 <zzo38> Ilari: Yes statis data is binding via hash
00:12:36 <pikhq> It'll software render if it has to, it'll do crazy shit if it has to. It takes care of the crazy shit.
00:12:59 <Sgeo> Active Worlds in WINE had some issues with attempting to render 3d in a part of a window
00:13:07 <alise> pikhq: "Here is video memory. (Actually, it's some memory belonging to the WM that it will blit to a window for you.)"
00:13:22 <alise> How does Mesa go from that to "ha ha, I am drawing accelerated 3D all over my window area, video memory"
00:13:24 <zzo38> And digital signatures does mean binding by signatures, that it can be changed in the future by whoever has permission to modify it
00:13:28 <pikhq> alise: Oh, yeah... Uh. That might break its acceleration.
00:13:40 <alise> pikhq: So it needs direct access to a chunk of video memory, right?
00:13:56 <pikhq> Yeah, it needs access to DRI.
00:14:15 <alise> pikhq: What, the full DRI stuff?
00:14:23 <zzo38> And then also "W" key mode, which means "wiki", allows everyone to edit
00:14:24 <Ilari> zzo38: Well, both need double the number of bits relative to safety level, so at least 160 bits (256 if you want some security margin).
00:14:33 <pikhq> alise: Sorry, DRM.
00:14:43 <pikhq> That's the kernel-side stuff.
00:15:10 <alise> pikhq: So how would my system support it?
00:15:21 <zzo38> Ilari: Thanks, but is 256 enough?
00:15:24 <alise> A request to the window system saying "plox gimme direct video memory plez".
00:16:03 <pikhq> alise: It would require some trickery, but you could do the same sort of thing that the Xcomposite does.
00:16:17 <alise> pikhq: What's that?
00:16:41 <zzo38> Perhaps I can allow a variable number of bits
00:16:41 <pikhq> alise: Uses a GL extension to allow you to accelerate rendering frames to physical memory.
00:17:10 <alise> pikhq: I think handling 3D is too much of a bitch to deal with to start with.
00:17:39 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and is there a reason that the mouse isn't just two integers in memory that you can read as often as you want (but it'll stay the same if you read quicker than the mouse update speed)?
00:17:46 <alise> Like, any reason at all?
00:18:38 <Ilari> zzo38: Since for static case, one hash suffices and for DS case you can treat the signature as static data.
00:18:44 <alise> pikhq: Right. Thought so.
00:19:22 <Madk> Is voxelperfect.net broken, or is it just me?
00:19:33 <alise> Madk: http://esolangs.org/ should work fine.
00:20:42 <Madk> Is anyone else having the same problem?
00:20:43 <alise> pikhq: Hmm, what's a good keyboard interface? Can't just be one memory location, can't just be one location per key; we need some kind of notification mechanism, but I'm trying to keep this simple.
00:20:58 <alise> Madk: now that you mention it...
00:21:15 <alise> graue graue graue (he apperas if you call him three times)
00:21:25 <zzo38> Another idea in hypernet is all files (including static files) are encrypted, and that hypernet packets can be sent using anything (TCP/IP, UDP, e-mail, HTTP, FTP, fax machine, printed barcodes in books, ham radio, etc)
00:21:42 <Madk> UP UP DOWN DOWN LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT
00:22:07 <zzo38> For a static file, if you happen to already have a copy (even if you don't know it yet, because it is encrypted), you might be able to retrieve it without sending or receiving anything from anywhere else.
00:22:20 <zzo38> For files that can change, you might still be able to do this, but it might be a older version
00:23:38 <zzo38> You might use a command-line tool to receive/send/request files (and other commands) using hypernet, or the web-browser might support hypernet URLs, or whatever else
00:23:45 <Madk> site is back online
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00:25:10 <zzo38> Hypernet shall be fully decentralized, with no dependencies on centralized services, and also entirely free and complete specifications available in the public domain for anyone to read, with only one central authority being the standards organization, to publish the documents describing the protocols, nothing else.
00:25:56 <zzo38> Even if the government censors internet, they will be unable to censor hypernet!
00:26:36 <alise> zzo38 is just designing freenet
00:26:50 -!- jcp_xc2 has changed nick to jcp_x.
00:27:10 <alise> dammit this laptop is so perfect i love it
00:27:13 <zzo38> (Another way to transfer hypernet, is using floppy disks or USB file system devices, where the computer you attach it to will read/write the files on it, in order to send you the response (if it knows it), and to pass it on to other disks)
00:27:54 <zzo38> Standard file formats are mostly plain text and gzip (and other compression tools), no HTML or anything like that (although they can still be used if you want to)
00:28:10 <alise> what has happened to the trackpad though
00:28:21 <alise> pikhq: occasionally my tracks happen in reverse then get stuck
00:29:29 <alise> also sometimes the mouse just dances around
00:30:52 <alise> pikhq: i think it is maybe sweaty or something distorting tracking
00:31:11 <alise> using another part of my hand works
00:34:58 <alise> coppro: what was that level of secrecy parodied on agora? UNIVERSALLY TOP SECRET or something
00:35:02 <alise> GALACTICALLY SECRET maybe
00:35:22 <Sgeo> That creepy shadow contract is dead!
00:35:31 <Sgeo> Or, well, not enforced by Agoran law
00:42:02 <coppro> the highest NATO classification
00:42:53 <alise> i wonder what goethe's argument would be for U.N.D.E.A.D. still existing?
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00:43:10 <Sgeo> I think I was referred to U.N.D.E.A.D.
00:43:30 <alise> Sgeo: probably there is an argument that it will start existing again when contracts are reintroduced
00:43:43 <alise> after all, nobody seriously argues when goethe claimed it retroactively changed itself way back when.
00:44:30 <alise> pikhq: MAKE IT WORK
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00:58:44 <cheater99> alise: do you have a synaptics touchpad?
00:59:44 <cheater99> alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise
01:00:18 <alise> i have a synaptics touchpad.
01:05:22 <alise> it just has an issue
01:09:03 <alise> it sometimes moves the opposite direction i do. movement often stops, then jerks around a lot if i move some more.
01:09:09 <alise> almost impossible to move correctly.
01:09:22 <cheater99> try changing from relative to absolute mode
01:10:31 <alise> i don't think it's in a different mode
01:10:41 <cheater99> there are two modes for the synaptics touchpad
01:12:54 <alise> how can i change it? no such var in synclient, or it seems so
01:23:44 <cheater99> http://lwn.net/Articles/38505/ looks similar to your problem
01:23:56 <cheater99> also: http://www.pubbs.net/200911/fedora/24583-xorg-synaptics-touchpad-and-absoluterelative-mode.html
01:25:04 <alise> it's not always reversed
01:25:53 <alise> It appears to be fixed.
01:29:54 <alise> cheater99: that command doesn't do a thing
01:30:05 <alise> pikhq: So, question. How would you structure a keyboard interface?
01:30:55 <cheater99> what ever you do make sure at least one of the most useful shortcuts is impossible on some keyboard
01:31:08 <pikhq> alise: I haven't a clue.
01:31:19 <pikhq> cheater99: As an API for accessing a keyboard.
01:32:45 <cheater99> hey alise, want to help me figure out why my synaptics touchpad doesn't work?
01:32:56 <alise> cheater99: no, but i will.
01:33:05 <Sgeo> I actually used my own independent judgement today!
01:33:13 <Sgeo> [Well, kind of. I did rely on WOT]
01:33:30 <Sgeo> But I didn't go into any chatrooms to ask if a website was trustworthy, and it's a matter of some importance
01:35:30 <cheater99> alise: how do we get around to it?
01:35:40 <alise> cheater99: first tell me the model of the trackpad.
01:36:32 <alise> okay so what distro are you using
01:36:53 <cheater99> it worked in i think 9.04 or 8.something
01:37:24 <cheater99> here's an email between me and someone i thought might know http://pastebin.com/cm8CehM8
01:38:24 <alise> try ubuntu 10.04 livecd
01:38:41 <alise> what happens when you run "xinput list"
01:38:45 <cheater99> i think at some point they broke the kernel
01:40:10 <cheater99> ⎡ Virtual core pointer id=2[master pointer (3)]
01:40:10 <cheater99> ⎜ ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer id=4[slave pointer (2)]
01:40:10 <cheater99> ⎜ ↳ Logitech USB Laser Mouse id=9[slave pointer (2)]
01:40:10 <cheater99> ⎜ ↳ SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad id=12[slave pointer (2)]
01:40:11 <cheater99> ⎜ ↳ Macintosh mouse button emulation id=13[slave pointer (2)]
01:40:41 <Sgeo> alise, nymag.com, particularly http://nymag.com/bestdoctors/
01:41:18 <cheater99> nymag sounds like the name of a chinese province
01:42:40 <alise> cheater99: it should work
01:43:05 <cheater99> works in windows (well it did, but now 'doze is broken so i can't boot into it)
01:43:19 <cheater99> it worked in windows for months while not working under ubuntu
01:43:51 <alise> cheater99: i have a synaptics touchpad. i use ubuntu 10.04.
01:43:58 <alise> you have a problem.
01:44:44 <alise> produces no output :)
01:45:00 <alise> "psmouse", I would bet.
01:46:33 <cheater99> what dev does yours spit info out to?
01:48:13 <cheater99> and if you cat it, do you see anything?
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01:49:59 <cheater99> (you can check the device with cat /proc/bus/input/devices)
01:52:03 <alise> you don't have to teach me linux :P
01:53:04 <alise> can't seem to find a device file
01:53:45 <cheater99> I: Bus=0011 Vendor=0002 Product=0007 Version=25b1
01:53:45 <cheater99> N: Name="SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad"
01:53:45 <cheater99> S: Sysfs=/devices/platform/i8042/serio4/input/input8
01:53:50 <cheater99> B: KEY=6420 0 70000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
01:54:02 <alise> but e.g. /dev/input/mouse1 never yields anything
01:54:11 <alise> nor does /dev/input/event6
01:54:22 <alise> Handlers=mouse1 event6
01:54:40 <cheater99> and i have just had a configuration issue
01:54:50 <alise> cheater99: perhaps X11 is "eating" all the input somehow, though that'd be an awful violation of everything if that can actually happen
01:54:54 <alise> cheater99: what's your Xorg.conf
01:55:02 <alise> yes, it works, apart from this glitch which is almost certainly hardware
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01:56:08 <cheater99> but even before it was using HAL drivers it didn't work
01:56:40 <cheater99> i also have something about screen devices but that's all
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01:58:06 <alise> cheater99: i suggest removing xorg.conf
01:58:21 <alise> i bet it will autodetect the right driver if you do
01:59:24 <alise> dude it's Linux/X11
01:59:27 <alise> it can be any fucking thing.
02:01:11 <cheater99> there's no fucking telling what the signal 'flow' is
02:01:13 <alise> so just remove it and restart X :P
02:01:44 <alise> cheater99: yes, a modern GNOME/X11/GNU/Linux system is hideously overcomplicated.
02:01:47 <alise> computers suck, we know this
02:02:01 <cheater99> if there was any documentation at all!
02:02:16 * Sgeo is apparently "Geonic elements"
02:02:34 <alise> cheater99: tried it yet? :P
02:02:48 <cheater99> just a sec, waiting for this video to finish then i'll reboot
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02:02:55 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D26U26fFojw&feature=player_embedded
02:03:23 <alise> no need to reboot ...
02:04:34 <alise> well yeah. since x sucks. :-P
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02:15:32 <cheater99> the only thing that did was make my gnome ugly :p
02:15:52 <cheater99> btw, the touchpad doesn't work on the login screen either (it used to but then it broke down completely)
02:16:35 <alise> How on earth did it make gnome ugly?
02:16:58 <cheater99> and it fell back to the way gnome used to look 15 years ago
02:17:55 <pikhq> What, you mean Motif compliant?
02:18:09 <cheater99> SORT of like this: http://blog.chris.tylers.info/uploads/rhl72-gnome-desktop.png
02:18:26 <alise> cheater99: see that just looks usable to me :P
02:18:31 <alise> i'm a bit of an old fart ...
02:18:56 <pikhq> That looks like a no-nonsense GUI thing with unantialiased fonts.
02:19:17 <pikhq> But, then, I'm the guy using Fluxbox.
02:19:22 <cheater99> if you're supposed to be a teenager
02:20:21 <alise> pikhq: yeck, fluxbox.
02:20:31 <cheater99> alise: so what do we do about the thing now?
02:20:56 <alise> sheesh i'm only 14, that information is PRIVATE
02:21:01 <alise> how about you paste yours :-P
02:22:45 <cheater99> what do you get when you do ls -R /etc/hal/fdi
02:24:09 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -R /etc/hal/fdi/
02:24:09 <alise> information policy preprobe
02:24:09 <alise> /etc/hal/fdi/information:
02:24:09 <alise> /etc/hal/fdi/policy:
02:24:12 <alise> /etc/hal/fdi/preprobe:
02:24:50 <cheater99> and are you sure you have no xorg.conf or Xorg.conf in /etc/X11?
02:25:23 <cheater99> is there anything else under /etc/hal ?
02:25:54 <cheater99> is there about synaptics in preferences.fdi?
02:25:56 <alise> lshal reports that psmouse is being used for something, though under the synaptics device itself it actually lists no driver. queer.
02:26:14 <alise> ⎡ Virtual core pointer id=2[master pointer (3)]
02:26:14 <alise> ⎜ ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer id=4[slave pointer (2)]
02:26:14 <alise> ⎜ ↳ SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad id=11[slave pointer (2)]
02:26:14 <alise> ⎜ ↳ Macintosh mouse button emulation id=12[slave pointer (2)]
02:26:14 <alise> ⎣ Virtual core keyboard id=3[master keyboard (2)]
02:26:15 <alise> ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard id=5[slave keyboard (3)]
02:26:17 <alise> ↳ Power Button id=6[slave keyboard (3)]
02:26:19 <alise> ↳ Video Bus id=7[slave keyboard (3)]
02:26:21 <alise> ↳ Power Button id=8[slave keyboard (3)]
02:26:23 <alise> ↳ Chicony USB 2.0 Camera id=9[slave keyboard (3)]
02:26:25 <alise> ↳ AT Translated Set 2 keyboard id=10[slave keyboard (3)]
02:26:37 <alise> just something about hotpluggable storage
02:27:51 <cheater99> i have a thing called 11-x11-synaptics.fdi
02:27:58 * pikhq sends the world's most evil HTTP query to tinyurl.
02:28:07 <pikhq> <h1>414 - Request-URI Too Long</h1>
02:29:50 <pikhq> alise: http://filebin.ca/hbrppf/timemachine.tex Thoughts?
02:30:34 <cheater99> alise: http://pastebin.com/QxpPVDyq
02:31:29 <cheater99> alise: that's not the WHOLE thing :p
02:33:59 <cheater99> that's my /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi
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02:36:08 <Madk> Oh, my.. I'm not alone in this universe, am I?
02:36:17 <alise> pikhq: No, not Century Schoolbook :(
02:36:24 <Madk> THANK GOODNESS
02:36:35 <alise> pikhq: Anachronism, not good for fiction.
02:37:01 <alise> input.x11_driver = 'synaptics' (string)
02:37:01 <alise> input.x11_options.SHMConfig = 'on' (string)
02:37:03 <alise> i don't have this line
02:37:05 <pikhq> alise: Better font por favor?
02:37:08 <Madk> alise: I fixed a bug in M-Code, if it interests you. It was preventing commented code from parsing correctly.
02:37:15 <pikhq> alise: Preferably one that's not a pain to obtain?
02:37:21 <alise> cheater99: i suggest removing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi
02:37:34 <cheater99> you don't have the line with shmconfig?
02:37:53 <cheater99> because you listed two lines but only talk about one.
02:37:58 <pikhq> alise: Also, those your only complaints?
02:38:03 <alise> pikhq: maybe Minion? (It's an anachronism but inspired by ancient designs, so...) and it's originally postscript, so should be quite easy to find
02:38:05 <alise> my only complaints so far
02:38:16 <alise> can you make a pdf or ps of it? i'm extraordinarily lazy
02:38:17 <alise> cheater99: indeed.
02:38:21 <alise> cheater99: i have neither of those lines
02:38:24 <alise> copy /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi somewhere and nuke it
02:38:37 <pikhq> alise: Just lemme upload.
02:38:39 <alise> pikhq: are you sure the original text had en dashes -- instead of em dashes ---?
02:39:07 <pikhq> alise: Gutenberg did. That may well be an error.
02:39:34 <alise> pikhq: If it had -- in plaintext, that is often used to denote em dash.
02:39:48 <pikhq> Okay. Sed away, then.
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02:41:37 <alise> pikhq: Was the original text written with single quotes?
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02:41:59 <pikhq> alise: It has several chapters in a single quotation.
02:42:08 <pikhq> With double-quotes used within the single quote.
02:42:27 <alise> pikhq: Oh, I forgot H. G. Wells was completely insane.
02:42:32 <alise> You have spaces at the end of lines. You might want to rectify that.
02:42:33 <pikhq> By "several chapters" I mean "almost all of it".
02:43:02 <alise> You have an \emph{} of a sentence with the . outside it, but an \emph{} of the start of a quotation with the ` inside it.
02:43:09 <alise> I suggest setting it as `\emph{I} instead.
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02:43:46 <pikhq> BTW, I'm going to only update the PDF once I fix everything you list here. :P
02:44:19 <pikhq> Hmm. There's several em-dashes here used for an interrupted sentence with spaces before them.
02:44:44 <alise> I would M-q all of the text
02:45:08 <alise> no trickery. I don't want to waste this model, and then be told I'm
02:45:11 <alise> The opening quote is just a `.
02:45:13 <alise> Replace '' with '.
02:45:42 <pikhq> Bug, but more oo-gy.
02:45:44 <alise> God, H. G. Wells loved his dashes.
02:46:12 <pikhq> It's like typographic symbols were new to him or something.
02:46:37 <alise> \chapter*[Epilogue]{\textsc{Epilogue}}
02:46:50 <pikhq> Makes it not have a number assigned.
02:46:50 <alise> Won't that say "Chapter Epilogue"?
02:46:58 <pikhq> No, it'll say "Epilogue".
02:47:39 <alise> pikhq: Then I'd like to see the PDF.
02:48:09 <pikhq> Lemme get Minion set up and just double-check for remaining stupidities.
02:48:27 <alise> Minion may not fit the text. I am not sure. But it should be easy to get working since it's a postscript font.
02:50:36 <alise> I'm finding it hard to find Minion on a torrent site.
02:50:42 <alise> There needs to be a site for typophile pirates. Yarr.
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02:52:02 <alise> pikhq: Oh, install Adobe Reader.
02:52:09 <alise> This gets you Minion Pro as an otf.
02:52:19 <alise> Convert them into Type1.
02:52:23 <alise> Then use http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/minionpro/.
02:52:47 <alise> (I recommend doing this instead of XeTeX because the packages give enhanced support.)
02:52:52 <alise> http://lglinux.blogspot.com/2007/09/myriad-and-minion-for-latex.html
02:53:07 <alise> pikhq: I'd like to see the current PDF anyway, though.
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02:55:12 <alise> cheater99: i suggest reinstalling
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02:56:09 <cheater99> the thing doesn't work on it either
02:56:19 <alise> install gentoo :-P
02:56:27 <alise> gentoo solves all problems given infinite patience
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02:58:36 <cheater99> i thought you were supposed to be smart with computars
02:58:37 <pikhq> alise: http://filebin.ca/wrkhx/timemachine.pdf
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02:58:54 <alise> cheater99: only with things that obey the rules of logic
02:58:57 <alise> linux is a mystery to me
02:59:51 * pikhq installs Adobe Reader for the sole purpose of having its fonts
02:59:58 <alise> pikhq: damn, i really want to show you my The Metamorphosis now
03:00:10 <alise> apart from the Q in that garamond
03:00:13 <cheater99> alise: linux obeys rules of logic, it runs on a turing machine
03:00:16 <pikhq> alise: Anyways, thoughts on the text ATM?
03:01:23 <alise> cheater99: yeah if you believe that stuff
03:01:32 <alise> pikhq: the text itself is fine, of course, only formatting issues are to talk about :-P
03:01:41 <cheater99> alise: u just don't want 2 hlp me :<
03:01:43 <alise> pikhq: i do not like your chapter headings much
03:02:04 <alise> i would have the font be bigger, perhaps bold, the dashes to be shorter, and there be more space between the number and the dashes
03:02:07 <alise> but that's just my preference
03:02:38 <alise> pikhq: also, the man's name is H. G. Well,s not H.G. Wells. Probably.
03:03:33 <pikhq> Yeah, it's probably not H.G.
03:05:17 <alise> Charles Harold Eater XCIX
03:06:01 <cheater99> one of my first names goes back so far i'm like the 5th or something in line
03:06:32 <pikhq> alise: Any other thoughts on the formatting?
03:06:34 <alise> i know someone with the most awesome name ever but i don't think i'll reveal it for the sheer awesomeness
03:07:04 <alise> pikhq: i'm not so sure printing THE TIME MACHINE on every verso page is productive.
03:07:11 <alise> i might move the page numbers there instead.
03:08:26 <alise> pikhq: also, make sure every chapter starts on a recto page.
03:09:12 <alise> pikhq: i think your chapter starter pages have too much blank space
03:09:12 <pikhq> alise: Memoir class takes care of *that*. ;)
03:09:18 <alise> look at it in dual mode in your favourite pdf viewer
03:09:23 <alise> it's a long dip down compared to the previous page
03:13:15 <pikhq> alise: Hmm, that really is a lot of blank space.
03:14:49 <alise> actually i decided not to after i checked and it was trivially googleable
03:18:23 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have never eaten a hamburger
03:18:33 <Sgeo> My dad's a bit paranoid about Mad Cow disease
03:18:44 <Sgeo> However, there hasn't really been an outbreak in, how long?
03:18:55 <Sgeo> And it's probably safer to eat a hamburger than get in a car
03:19:02 <coppro> if by "outbreak" you mean "case", several years
03:19:22 <cheater99> bear in mind this disease has delayed effect
03:19:28 <cheater99> you might have it for deeecaaadesss
03:19:59 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what'd be cool (if painful)?
03:20:20 <pikhq> To make a book entirely by hand, using moving type.
03:20:24 <alise> pikhq: A clockwork urethra?
03:20:42 <cheater99> you don't have an urethra, you're a girl.
03:21:04 <coppro> `addquote <cheater99> you don't have an urethra, you're a girl.
03:21:08 <HackEgo> 196|<cheater99> you don't have an urethra, you're a girl.
03:21:29 <alise> i am pretty sure i do have a urethra :P
03:21:33 <coppro> yay, HackEgo's working again!
03:21:33 <Sgeo> "People with a biologic relative who has been diagnosed with CJD or vCJD are unable to donate."
03:21:47 <pikhq> alise: Creating a single book with movable type, though, would be really silly.
03:22:09 <Sgeo> Wait, you mean books weren't made with movable type?
03:22:09 <pikhq> Awesome, but really silly.
03:22:13 <cheater99> you should create a book with one of those labeling tools
03:22:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: Modern books are not made with movable type.
03:22:56 <Sgeo> pikhq, yes, but when movable type was invented...
03:23:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW, by single book, I mean a *single book* being printed. Literally, print exactly one copy.
03:23:30 <pikhq> Also, when movable type was invented books had already existed for ages.
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03:24:32 <cheater99> sounds like an extremely effective way to spend your time
03:25:29 <pikhq> cheater99: It'd be the ultimate in expensive bookery.
03:25:56 <pikhq> Especially if I used gold leaf or something.
03:26:10 <Sgeo> Cow meat today is fairly safe though, right?
03:26:12 <cheater99> a multithreading operating system writen in machine code with a hex editor.
03:26:14 <Sgeo> Is there a way to screen it?
03:26:22 <cheater99> after writing it out in pencil on paper.
03:26:23 <pikhq> "Yeah, the only way this book could be more crazy-awesome is if I took up calligraphy."
03:26:45 <cheater99> calligraphy is ten times faster than movable type page setup.
03:27:11 <pikhq> Yes, but it takes more time to learn, I'm sure.
03:27:24 <pikhq> Though, movable type setup is probably really freaking painstaking.
03:28:16 <Sgeo> I don't get it. Are multiple copies of a single page done at once?
03:28:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: ... Yes, that's how movable type normally works.
03:29:01 <pikhq> You set up the type for a page, and then print off many copies.
03:29:10 <Sgeo> Oh, so I _do_ get it
03:29:12 <pikhq> *This is the whole reason movable type was revolutionary*.
03:29:35 <pikhq> It took barely any extra effort to print off 2, 3, or 3000 copies of a book.
03:29:44 <pikhq> And so, mass media was invented.
03:30:34 <pikhq> (woodblock printing, invented much earlier, was a bit less revolutionary cause carving books into wood is a motherfucking pain.)
03:30:56 <Sgeo> I understood the multiple copies thing, but just didn't realize it was multiple copies of one page at a time
03:31:22 <pikhq> ... How else could it possibly work?
03:31:36 <pikhq> What, having a fully set frame for each page? Ugh.
03:31:43 <Sgeo> I didn't know, but it just sounded wrong somehow
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03:41:43 <Sgeo> It's weird, taking a drug that can be so dangerous to treat such mild discomfort
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03:47:45 <Sgeo> alise, Paracetamol
03:47:50 <Sgeo> For a very minor headache
03:49:31 <pikhq> Yeah, that's all sorts of scary.
03:50:36 <Sgeo> I don't think I've ever taken more than 500mg in a 24h period
03:50:52 <Sgeo> Well below the recommended dose
03:51:22 <pikhq> Also, if you've taken alcohol... Seriously, for the love of god, don't even think about touching that shit.
03:51:51 <Sgeo> pikhq, is that "ever" taken alcohol, or taken alcohol recently?
03:52:16 <coppro> why are you taking paracetamol for a headache?
03:52:17 <pikhq> That produces almost-instant liver failure.
03:52:28 <pikhq> coppro: It's a common painkiller.
03:52:47 <Sgeo> The thing here, this headache was very minor
03:53:14 <coppro> it doesn't even help that much
03:53:40 <pikhq> "overdoses of paracetamol can cause potentially fatal liver damage; [..] in rare individuals, a normal does can do the same"
03:53:54 <pikhq> Yeah, I know. It's a painkiller that doesn't kill pain that well.
03:54:10 <Sgeo> ...it seemed to help with a recent severe headache
03:54:18 <Sgeo> although that could have been placebo effect, I guess
03:54:19 <coppro> If I actually take something, it'll be ibuprofen
03:54:34 <coppro> but I prefer to avoid those sort of things
03:54:37 <Sgeo> Apparently aspirin is really hard on the stomach?
03:54:41 <pikhq> Ibuprofen or naproxen sodium work well, I've found.
03:54:47 <coppro> aspirin is really hard on the body generally
03:55:06 <pikhq> Aspirin works, but it's harder on the stomach than most things.
03:55:16 <Sgeo> What's Ibuprofen's downside? They all seem to have one
03:55:32 <coppro> downside: you're taking a drug
03:56:16 <pikhq> Ibuprofen has a minor antiplatlet effect.
03:57:01 <pikhq> It can also cause: nausea, dyspepsia, gastrointestinal ulceration/bleeding, raised liver enzymes, diarrhea, constipation, epistaxis, headache, dizziness, priapism, rash, salt and fluid retention, and hypertension.
03:57:04 <Sgeo> So, bad if you have severe cut, bad if you have a minor cut, or bad if you are ... that condition that doesn't let bleeds stop
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03:57:15 <Sgeo> headache? That would be ironic
03:58:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yeah, most drugs have these sorts of possible side effects.
03:58:20 <pikhq> I'd be surprised if there wasn't one that didn't have the possibility of nausea.
03:58:55 <Sgeo> You mean that Paracetamol's hardness on the liver isn't its only side effect?
04:01:45 <Sgeo> ^^ambiguous "no"
04:01:53 <pikhq> Paracetamol can also cause stomach bleeding, and calcify kidneys.
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04:02:13 <pikhq> (I have no idea what a calcified kidney is, and I don't want to know.)
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04:13:52 <Sgeo> It just occured to me that I'm glad my mouthwash is non-alcoholic
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04:50:00 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/ehmnsc/TenpopinanpaWan.pdf
04:50:24 <pikhq> Okay, LaTeX can get decent results from logographic Toki Pona.
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05:01:52 <pikhq> Quadrescence: That's XeTeX.
05:02:01 <pikhq> Too much Unicode for normal TeX.
05:02:20 <Quadrescence> then why did you say LaTeX?????????????????????????????
05:02:36 <pikhq> LaTeX is a macro package for TeX.
05:02:50 <pikhq> And XeTeX is an implementation of the TeX language.
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05:03:05 <pikhq> What you asked is basically like "GTK+ or C".
05:03:19 <pikhq> Not mutually exclusive.
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05:03:42 <Quadrescence> XeTeX is more than just an implementation of TeX
05:04:26 <Quadrescence> it is typically okay to say "latex" as if it were its own program
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05:06:26 <pikhq> Fine, xelatex. Happy?
05:28:07 <Quadrescence> I am so pissed pikhq now can you give me money please? :(
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06:12:29 <coppro> what's a good feed reader?
06:17:24 <cheater99> you want something lightweight like term
06:33:33 <coppro> btw, ##cs was started today
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08:43:01 <olsner> coppro: what's that then?
08:43:18 <coppro> olsner: exactly what it sounds like
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08:44:23 <olsner> hash hash cee ess? :P a channel for generic computer science?
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08:47:02 <Slereah> What is the equation of a computer
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13:20:13 <Madk> What kind of program should I try and write in my esoteric language M-code?
13:20:18 <Madk> I need an idea
13:21:22 <Madk> Does no other life exist in this universe?
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13:31:02 <fizzie> I've usually -- if at all feasible -- just written a yet another Befunge(-93) interp, but that's just a personal idiosyncrasy, not a real suggestion.
13:34:12 <Madk> I'd be writing this in a separate esoteric language
13:34:19 <Madk> that doesn't look very easy to do
13:34:35 <Madk> A BrainF*ck interpreter is complicated enough
13:37:17 <Madk> Nooo I'm alone agaiin
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13:41:11 <fizzie> That thing really looks like it'd benefit (in the "easier to do stuff" sense) from an assembler that'd support labels, but maybe that's just too boringering.
13:42:09 <Madk> I suppose that wouldn't be too difficult. I had them at one point in early development, but I took them out
13:42:15 <Madk> I'll get on that now
13:42:20 <Madk> make some things a bit easier :P
13:43:12 <Madk> Thing is, I'm also trying to hunt down a bug
13:43:19 <Madk> I'll put the bug on hold, I suppose
13:49:26 <CakeProphet> I have some skeleton code written in Haskell. the only thing missing is the instruction parsing and machine code output parts. But all the helper functions have been made so it'll be a breeze
13:49:48 <fizzie> An assembler without labels is a sad assembler, after all.
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13:50:02 <Madk> You should check out M-code on the wiki
13:50:28 <Madk> anyway, labels getting close to done
13:53:11 <fizzie> I did take a peek; it looked refreshingly low-levely. (Though I was a bit distracted by the use of the words push/pop for register load/store; it's not doing anything stack-related, after all.)
13:56:37 <fizzie> It also made me want to write another of those GCC computed-goto driven interps for it, but I don't really have the time, and it wouldn't be anything especially clever anyhow.
14:01:59 <Madk> Now I have to make them work for all the bit versions
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14:18:10 <Madk> Added labels and made the interpreter source just a little cleaner in the process. Also fixed a minor internal bug regarding the "|" symbol.
14:18:11 <Madk> http://floatation.webs.com/M-Code.zip
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14:23:44 <Madk> I added labels
14:26:34 <Madk> just search m-code
14:27:12 <Madk> or http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/M-code
14:27:12 <Quadrescence> because I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo lazzzzzzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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14:32:28 <Madk> I think my labels might be broken
14:36:29 <Madk> D: why is it malfunctioning
14:37:25 <Madk> I put a couple label addresses into the register to output them, and it's showing 0
14:37:41 <Madk> but my program says it's not 0
14:39:49 <Madk> something funny is going on
14:40:07 <Madk> Pre-runtime the label's value is 40
14:40:24 <Madk> sometime between then and the output command in the source it became 62
14:44:46 <Madk> What happened that it jujst doesn't work all of a sudden ._.
14:45:25 <Madk> ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
14:45:35 <Madk> I hope that's the onl issue though
14:45:48 <Madk> forgot to reset a variable when I had to separate parsing into two passes
14:46:24 <Madk> the first issue persists
14:47:46 <Madk> I forgot that > puts a value at an address into the register, not the actual value
14:47:53 <Madk> stupid stupid stupid -.-;
14:48:27 <Madk> I need an alternate stack assignment to make it so you can pass like a constant into a register
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14:53:16 <Madk> you are become my test subject
14:53:49 <Madk> Because you're the only other person here atm
14:53:52 <sebbu> and it's not free for me to become test subject
14:54:32 <Madk> In Soviet IRC Channel, test subject becomes YOU.
14:54:34 <Madk> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/M-code
14:54:42 <Madk> write some simple program or something in it
14:55:12 <Madk> I need help bug-hunting, but nobody is doing anything with it
14:55:57 <sebbu> >[64]j[8]$8}[32].i[9]}[9]?[8];_$32Hello,[32]world!$64[45] ?
14:57:27 <Madk> that's an example.
15:06:57 <Madk> well? anything?
15:09:53 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKHiuFEKmJw&feature=related
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18:33:19 <coppro> GSOC paid me the midterm
19:04:25 <fizzie> All Google money is made by murdering.
19:17:10 <oerjan> don't be evil - or we kill you
19:20:50 <fizzie> Don't be evil - that's our turf.
19:21:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: Remember back a while ago when we were talking about boring fake-quines? I wrote a really silly Perl fake-one: http://sprunge.us/fUYE?perl
19:22:39 <coppro> a fake quine is one that prints its own source file?
19:22:50 <fizzie> It's an "EOF" status report from the source-filter sub.
19:23:21 <fizzie> The filter examples had an unadorned expression instead of an explicit return, so I put in one too.
19:23:49 <fizzie> There's of course an almost identical one using the magical DATA filehandle, too: http://sprunge.us/YEZF?perl
19:28:27 <fizzie> Unfortunately fungot says "Mismatched []." if there's an unterminated loop in bf; if the message were something like "Unterminated [" you could sort-of count "^bf Unterminated [".
19:28:27 <fungot> fizzie: and using actual wav files might give too much: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ manual/ interpreter-command-line-format.html'
19:29:23 <fizzie> Given how trivial actual quining is in Underload, going via error messages is a bit silly.
19:30:45 <fizzie> I don't think it accepts an argument, unfortunately.
19:30:56 <Deewiant> I was hoping you didn't check for that.
19:32:18 <fizzie> ^str Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:32:19 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:32:52 <fizzie> (Okay, so I set it to that in a query.)
19:33:03 <Deewiant> I have uncovered your misdeeds!
19:34:08 <fizzie> ^def Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:34:08 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:34:13 <fizzie> Is it perhaps getting a bit silly?
19:34:26 <Deewiant> Most of these lack the ^cmd bit at the beginning anyway.
19:34:55 <fizzie> As a quine-example for Underload.
19:35:06 <fizzie> So those are just "str" and "def" quines.
19:35:09 <Deewiant> Only because Underload itself doesn't need the ^ul.
19:35:25 <Deewiant> Well yeah, anything is a quine like that. :-P
19:35:47 <fizzie> Neither do the str and def commands "itself" need the prefix, it's just there for the benefit of the bot. Ahem. Okay, I'll stop rationalizing.
19:36:53 <fizzie> Okay, now I'll really stop.
19:37:01 <oerjan> ^ul (^ul )(~:SaS:aSS)~:SaS:aSS
19:37:02 <fungot> ^ul (^ul )(~:SaS:aSS)~:SaS:aSS
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19:39:13 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
19:39:13 <fungot> ^ul (^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
19:39:18 <fizzie> That's a tiny bit shorter.
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19:40:01 <fizzie> Adapted it from the ^ul/+ul toggle-quine I wrote back then when we had a +ul bot:
19:40:03 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:40:03 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
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19:47:04 <fizzie> Doesn't buy you much over the "usual" (:aSS):aSS, except that perhaps some "explicit language" filters won't trip.
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20:23:08 <cpressey> ^ul $(window).scrollTo('#disclaimer');
20:27:09 <fizzie> I've been peeking at the manual of the DSP chip (TI C64x+ series) they've put in my phone; it seems quite a spiffy thing. "64 general-purpose 32-bit registers and eight functional units -- [each of which contains:] two multipliers, six ALUs". (It's a VLIW thing to drive all those units in parallel.)
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22:39:34 <aliseiphone> Urgency is present in this air. I wonder from where?
22:41:03 <aliseiphone> I just sprayed an awful lot of aerosol and the air is still. I never knew air could smell this bad.
22:41:43 <Ilari> Smell just bad or unusual kind of bad? :-)
22:42:15 <Ilari> (that unusual kind of bad is very difficult to describe to someone that hasn't experienced it).
22:44:08 <Ilari> One of the worst smells I have ever run across: "Pineapple scented" liquid soap. That smelled _REALLY_ HORRIBLE.
22:45:29 <Ilari> In contrast, paint that is infamous for its smell wasn't that bad.
22:45:45 <cpressey> auuugggh google just "improved" their image search.
22:46:14 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Hail, aliseiphone.
22:46:24 <pikhq> aliseiphone: When do you regain freedom?
22:46:57 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Like, "no longer have to reside in the unit".
22:48:16 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Google are "improving" your "life".
22:48:34 <Ilari> The kind of smell that feels like it is outside the space of smells, but still is felt as bad smell.
22:48:37 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Yes, I shall find a political party and throw them out a window.
22:49:31 <Ilari> Later that day I ran into that soap I smelled some real pineapples. Not one of the best smells, but it wasn't bad smell either.
22:51:33 <aliseiphone> How about the Tories? Then we get a nice Lib Dem government.
22:51:40 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Select one at random. I shall repeat until there's a lack of political parties.
22:52:54 <pikhq> Alternately, just throw out all the Tories and (in the US) Republicans.
22:53:18 <pikhq> Thereby moving us at least a few steps towards having discussion happen instead of rants.
22:54:57 <pikhq> aliseiphone: More so than the Republicans.
22:55:02 <pikhq> Which is not saying much mind.
22:55:56 <coppro> 2/3 republican, 2/3 democrat, and everyobody else?
22:56:04 <aliseiphone> coppro: Whereas Canada operates on a 0.75 party system.
23:02:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: The "Democrats" range from the slightly more sane neoconservatives to literal, honest-to-god communists.
23:02:47 <pikhq> It's a very, very broad party. Getting them to do anything is like herding cats.
23:03:05 <pikhq> The Republicans range from the slightly less sane neoconservatives to literal, honest-to-god fascists.
23:03:21 <pikhq> It's a very, very well-defined party. Getting them to do anything is like getting lemmings to jump off a cliff.
23:03:44 <coppro> yeah, that's the Republicans' strength
23:04:21 <pikhq> Convince them that it's in their favor to make Congress not do anything, and fuck it, that's what they'll do.
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23:53:50 <Sgeo> <aliseiphone> back in a bit
23:55:10 <cpressey> Undefined variable 'aliseiphone' at line 5, column 23
00:02:53 <ais523> cpressey: is that a me reference?
00:02:59 <ais523> or are the numbers just coincidence?
00:04:45 <cpressey> ais523: Oh, an occurrence of 23 is *never* a coincidence.
00:06:03 <cpressey> ais523: Since the subject came up -- why did you pick those numbers? Born on May 23rd?
00:06:25 <ais523> cpressey: no, it was a completely random number, picked by an automatic username-allocating system
00:06:34 <ais523> although I am aware of the significance of the number
00:06:55 <ais523> draw whatever conclusions you like from that
00:09:26 <cpressey> So I learned this about the DOM today, at least as FF sees it: If you have two nested elements, and you move the mouse into the inside one, you get two mousenter events, one for each of the elements. If however you have two elements which are *not* nested but still geometrically overlap by absolute positioning, you will only get one mouseenter.
00:09:55 <coppro> the top element hides the lower one
00:10:21 <coppro> whereas if one is a subelement of the other, entering the inner one by definition, requires you to be in the outer one
00:10:22 <cpressey> For some definition of "hide" which does not map to the user's experience and which is very inconvenient for me... perhaps.
00:10:38 <cpressey> It should go purely by the geometry imo.
00:11:19 <coppro> that would make no sense
00:12:00 <cpressey> "by definition"? You can have an inner element which displays completely outside of the element it's nested in.
00:12:27 <coppro> it's not about display, it's about logical nesting
00:12:43 <coppro> if something is inside something else, to be inside it is logically to be in the outer element too
00:13:01 <coppro> that's like putting a box in a can and saying you can be in the box but not in the can
00:13:29 <Sgeo> 346126 is also a number from a user-allocation system
00:13:41 <Sgeo> Doesn't that sound much better than "It's my Active Worlds citizen number!"?
00:14:44 <cpressey> Were that HTML were not about display. Alas.
00:15:21 <cpressey> My world is full of boxes in cans that appear outside of them.
00:15:38 <coppro> HTML is not about display
00:17:43 <cpressey> coppro: If your HTML is not about display, then I applaud you. Recognize, however, how much of the world's HTML *is* about display, almost entirely so.
00:18:24 <coppro> if your HTML includes display information, you're Doing It Wrong
00:18:51 <cpressey> coppro: You realize how much of the world is doing it wrong, right?
00:19:16 <coppro> cpressey: unfortunately
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00:20:04 <cpressey> coppro: I still think, since mouseenter uses geometry, and CSS uses geometry, the problem is one of display, and HTML nesting should not enter into it.
00:20:33 <pikhq> How's about we replace HTML with something better? Something without any formatting?
00:21:16 <coppro> it does everything HTML does
00:21:30 <pikhq> Except with more of a focus on formatting and not on content.
00:21:59 * pikhq wants a damned hypertext markup language, not a craptastic graphic design language
00:22:03 <coppro> for a focus on content, you need only use the XHTML namespace
00:22:15 <coppro> admittedly, this works both ways
00:22:19 <pikhq> Except that's a craptastic graphic design language!
00:22:22 <coppro> but importing SVG in an XHTML document is confusing
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00:46:59 <coppro> anyone know how to get the command line of a running windows program?
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00:59:57 <ais523> coppro: is it even possible?
01:00:09 <coppro> ais523: it's got to be in memory somewhere
01:00:38 <pikhq> Yes, but it's not necessarily exposed to other processes.
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03:21:55 <Gregor-P> The day of the day is still there :P
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10:01:24 <cheater99> in my room i keep my love a tiny rubberband
10:16:33 <Deewiant> coppro: If you still need it: Process Explorer can show it
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14:46:35 <Madk> Anyone else here?
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14:57:11 <Madk> I'm all fuzzy inside - my m-code language is turing complete ;D
14:57:27 <Madk> finally finished by bf interpreter in it
14:59:00 <pikhq> Ah, the simple TC proof. :D
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15:56:32 <Madk> So, what's everyone else doing?
15:57:12 <Madk> I'm working on changing around the syntax for non-runtime commands in m-code to free up some characters
16:02:58 <Ilari> There's way more characters than you need in ISO 10646-1. :-)
16:10:13 <Madk> I'm only using easily typable characters though :P
16:10:28 <Madk> I've got 3 lowercase letters and a handful of uppercase left
16:10:37 <Madk> oh, and 0 and @
16:11:15 <Madk> What I'm doing now will free up ] and "
16:55:09 <AnMaster> don't remember hearing about it
16:55:11 <Madk> A language I made recently
16:55:19 <Madk> last few days I've been polishing it
16:55:30 <Madk> http://esolangs.org/wiki/M-code#.5B.5BFibonacci_sequence.5D.5D
16:56:09 <AnMaster> Madk, does that mean memory is limited?
16:56:44 <Madk> Nothing can be TC, then
16:56:58 <Madk> You'll run out of bits for an address eventually
16:57:30 <AnMaster> Madk, well not in practise, but in theory sure. Any esolang run on a physical computer won't be TC in that case. But the same esolang run on a Universal Turing Machine would
16:57:43 <AnMaster> if it allows you to have infinite storage in theory (which is what matters for TC)
16:57:57 <AnMaster> that said, esolangs doesn't have to be TC and may still be quite useful
16:58:07 <Madk> If it were possible to have limitless addresses, the ability to access the memory is there
16:58:25 <Madk> in 8-bit the maximum address is 255, of course
16:58:31 <Madk> that's the most you can do in 8 bits
16:59:01 <AnMaster> Madk, so if you want to keep it TC just allow bignum addresses
16:59:22 <AnMaster> that is, assuming it is TC in other parts
16:59:26 <Madk> What, like a string for a number?
16:59:47 <AnMaster> well, the representation is obviously up to you but see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrary-precision_arithmetic
17:00:24 <AnMaster> sigh I wish ais523 was here, he could explain this a lot better
17:00:52 <Madk> Augh, is that really necessary D;
17:01:19 <AnMaster> Madk, you could do it as a variant. Or you don't need to be TC
17:01:43 <AnMaster> besides I don't know if the rest of requirements for TCness are satisfied. I just spotted the obvious first check
17:02:16 <Madk> There's absolutely no reason why it couldn't parse itself
17:02:26 <Madk> It would be slow, given, but still tc
17:02:50 <Madk> It has all the basic arithmatic operators
17:02:57 <Madk> a ton of memory
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17:03:28 <Madk> It's 6052 assembly with single-char mnemonics
17:03:36 <Madk> not truly, but it's not so far from it
17:03:50 <AnMaster> could you implement brainfuck with infinite data tape in it?
17:04:05 <Madk> with bignums or such, yes
17:04:16 <Madk> and, of course, a machine with infinite memory
17:04:34 <oerjan> well brainfuck with finite tape but bignums also works for proving TC
17:04:42 <AnMaster> Madk, yes it just needs to be infinite in theory. Of course in practise it won't be on physical hardware
17:05:15 <AnMaster> but lets not confuse poor Madk
17:05:36 <Madk> I'm not that dumb, just new to some of these terms <.<
17:06:10 <oerjan> Madk: i removed your empty column from esointerpreters, we sort of don't want that page to get wider than necessary
17:06:39 <oerjan> you can put it back once you've implemented M-code in brainfuck, or something ;D
17:06:40 <Madk> I noticed, yeah, I should've thought about that beforehand
17:07:00 <Madk> I'm planning on trying to make a self-interpreter eventually
17:07:01 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/EsoInterpreters
17:07:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, that page is like 1/3 of my screen width
17:07:38 <Madk> Any obvious features or convenieves I may be missing?
17:08:11 <AnMaster> no it wasn't about the spelling
17:08:20 <oerjan> it only needs a couple more columns to fill out my browser window, admittedly i don't use quite full screen width
17:08:48 <cpressey> <Madk> Nothing can be TC, then
17:08:57 <cpressey> You're correct that no real machine can, if the universe is finite
17:09:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, this is a 2something" wide-screen monitor
17:09:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: i've been thinking if it gets much bigger it ought to be reorganized into something with a (vertex/edge) graph instead
17:09:09 <cpressey> But languages aren't real in that sense :)
17:09:33 <Madk> AnMaster: I don't want to force people to use half the program memory for relatively simple tasks :P
17:09:37 <oerjan> although i don't really know how to do that, especially if it's supposed to be easy to edit
17:09:53 <oerjan> (well i know how to make a graph on paper)
17:09:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, a table like that is a perfectly nice way to represent a graph where there can only be one edge between a given pair of nodes in a given direction
17:10:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: well actually it isn't such a graph, you will note there are several cells with multiple entries
17:10:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: links to the interpreters
17:11:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, so we have labeled edges
17:11:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, why do we mark C specifically
17:11:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and befunge93/98 should be separate entries
17:12:09 <oerjan> and it's not about being a nice way, it's about being big. in fact one way of shrinking things a lot without making a graph would be to separate out into a few tables: from bf/befunge, to bf/befunge, self-interpreter and others
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17:12:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: maybe, i already separated out unefunge the other day when someone added it
17:13:31 <oerjan> (because the table is very sparse except for bf/befunge)
17:13:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, well befunge-93 is quite a different beast from befunge-98
17:14:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, apart from one geocities link there seem to be only befunge-93 apart from fungot which is befunge-98
17:14:31 <fungot> AnMaster: the fnord cost fnord at least, ls -l /lib/ fnord debugging symbols found)...done.
17:15:31 <AnMaster> I lost my login for the wiki ages ago
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17:16:25 <oerjan> too much work, i'm lazy. just to find out which dialects they actually _are_ using, it's not like most of the link urls indicate it
17:17:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, I checked them for you
17:17:21 <AnMaster> oh and that one for lazyk I couldn't find anything about
17:18:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, so from those links: for befunge: all 93 except from the fungot link which is 98 and the geocities link which is dead and thus I have no clue about
17:18:43 <fungot> AnMaster: augur: i despise the state machine. :) ( it's at http://students.depaul.edu/csweeney/ scheme.code.html if anyone cares
17:19:41 <cpressey> Someone gotta implement Thue in Kipple.
17:19:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh and the marking for C is because we started pondering that there _are_ so few actual cycles. it's an encouragement to make more. :)
17:20:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: did you check both befunge row and befunge column?
17:21:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, and fungot is in two places (implements bf and ul)
17:21:27 <fungot> AnMaster: there's a new ( miniscule) processor architecture, written an emulator for it,
17:22:00 <oerjan> ok and there actually no f98 in the column, iiuc
17:22:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, why that specific combo?
17:22:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the geocities link is dead and not in waybackmachine
17:23:10 <oerjan> which is not surprising, since f98 is much harder to implement but at least as easy to implement with
17:23:38 <cpressey> No one has implemented Brainfuck in Unlambda?
17:24:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway without splitting 93/98 we could end up with false cycles
17:25:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, note also that 93 is not a proper subset to 98. String mode handling of multiple spaces differs, and that breaks a few programs
17:26:02 <cpressey> I tried building PortableFalse last night, and found both gcc and pcc choke on it.
17:27:54 <cpressey> I don't suppose we know of any False interpreter implemented in Haskell?
17:29:20 <cpressey> <AnMaster> oerjan, well the geocities link is dead and not in waybackmachine <--- try reocities?
17:30:45 <cpressey> yeah, yeah, dots in re's, whatever
17:31:09 <cpressey> AnMaster: Well, it was worth a shot.
17:31:31 <cpressey> <oerjan> which is not surprising, since f98 is much harder to implement but at least as easy to implement with
17:31:54 <AnMaster> before commenting on "but at least as easy" remember he is a mathematician
17:31:57 <cpressey> Seems to me the "true" tarpits would all be equally hard to implement each other in :)
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17:32:13 <AnMaster> cpressey, befunge is by no means a tarpit
17:32:28 <AnMaster> you should know that better than anyone else
17:33:08 <AnMaster> or at least as well as anyone else ;)
17:33:08 <Madk> haaargh my changes to syntax has broken my bf interpreter
17:33:08 <cpressey> AnMaster: you misunderstood my point
17:33:34 <AnMaster> changing syntax *does* tend to break things
17:33:47 <cpressey> AnMaster: I have better things to do than to explain it to you. Sorry.
17:34:06 <Madk> AnMaster I went through and changed the stuff to the proper syntax and it's still broken, that's the problem
17:34:23 <Madk> AnMaster: Hopefully I just forgot one or two things
17:34:54 <Madk> It's either jumping past the end of the loop or it's not jumping to the beginning ._.
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17:35:39 <oerjan> ok it's not in reocities (yet)
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17:35:49 <Madk> my fibonacci sequence is still fine, though, after I changed the syntax, so I don't really think it's the m-code interpreter itself
17:36:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: how can befunge-98 _not_ be easier to implement things with? it has a lot of extra features afaik, even if it's not strictly a superset
17:37:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, it was you who claimed it was at least as easy
17:38:06 <AnMaster> it is interesting how much harder bub is to optimise than brainfuck
17:39:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: note i said implement _with_. one of the reasons why there are so few Cs in that page is, in my opinion, that the easier a language is to implement other things with, the harder it is to implement itself.
17:39:56 <AnMaster> though if you had balanced [] you could back-translate it into a loop trivially. A lot of other optimisation would require changes though
17:40:37 <oerjan> also i've now edited the page
17:42:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes but somehow i don't think they count as much
17:42:42 <oerjan> (if you want to check the result)
17:42:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, you edited it wrong. Move the fungot entry in the bef/bf cell up
17:42:42 <fungot> AnMaster: i understood exactly what you end up with
17:42:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay you see the XX in b98/bf? Well one of those is a dead link. We need befunge-unknown-due-to-dead-link
17:42:43 <oerjan> i thought you said the geocities one was f98. oh wait you meant unknown.
17:42:50 <Madk> hurrah, I hauled my hello world example into the new syntax
17:42:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe put dead links at a list at the end
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17:43:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, just a suggestion for how to handle it
17:43:23 <AnMaster> it is trivially to use an automated link checker tool for it anyway
17:44:58 <Madk> There's my bf interpreter
17:45:04 <Madk> forgot two "$"'s
17:46:13 <Madk> I raise my eyebrow in confusion.
17:46:29 <Madk> The comment-stripper doesn't work right anymore
17:48:16 <Madk> hup, that was a simple fix :P
17:49:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: ok i've now fixed it as much as i can be bothered
17:50:13 <Madk> oerjan: He left
17:50:35 <oerjan> just as well, there's no way he'll be satisfied with what i did anyway ;D
17:51:03 <Madk> What page is this? Befunge '93 and '98?
17:51:23 <oerjan> there's just one Befunge page, but the one i edited is EsoInterpreters
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17:52:22 <Madk> You forgot to add -93 to the end of Befunge in the first column
17:52:30 <oerjan> no, i removed it again
17:52:32 <Madk> unless you weren't intending to, in which case you should
17:52:44 <oerjan> because it contains one unknown interpreter
17:52:59 <oerjan> which is a dead link which we don't know which befunge dialect it is
17:53:29 <Madk> Neither link is dead for me
17:53:37 <Madk> One says a '93 interpreter in '93
17:53:48 <Madk> the other says a '93 interpreter in befunge without a year
17:53:59 <oerjan> um the brainfuck interpreter in befunge
17:54:30 <Madk> If the link is broken take it down, it's of no use to anybody :/
17:54:30 <fizzie> I should perhaps point at the standalone Underload thing instead of fungot there for the Underload-in-Funge98 case.
17:54:30 <fungot> fizzie: fnord this shit doesnt achieve anything. :p)) some long, huge expression...)
17:55:42 <oerjan> Madk: the point is reocities is adding old geocities links slowly, so it _might_ become found again and i don't like to delete dead links completely without replacement
17:56:03 <oerjan> if we delete them then we'll _never_ remember to check if they've reappeared
17:56:07 <Madk> Anyhow, I'm off to write the collatz and the seive of eratosthenes in m-code :D
17:56:13 <Madk> oerjan: Oh, ok
17:56:26 <Madk> oerjan: What about a separate wiki page for dead links
17:56:44 <Madk> Go check them every now and then and if one works, put it wher it belongs
17:56:52 <oerjan> also the wayback machine, which i read somewhere hasn't added anything to the publicly available database for years
17:57:10 <fizzie> The EsoInterps table could be wider; I should perhaps implement something that doesn't have an esointerp yet. (Then I could transmogrify it into fungot, perhaps.)
17:57:11 <fungot> fizzie: definitely worth .25, clearly wrong, since the last time you took a turning test? to see why:
17:58:20 <fungot> cpressey: the price had went down from humongous to merely ginormous. the latter one doesn't look very probable though.) i think i actually need four quite small tunes
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18:10:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: Since we've usually been swapping these, here's a freehand (to excuse the very wobbly horizon) 360-degree huginization from a nearby cliff-thing: http://zem.fi/~fis/P1070725-739.jpg
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18:16:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, well your way is kind of okayish
18:16:53 <AnMaster> since bf in 93 would mean very short tape
18:17:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is hard to tell that it is wobbly. It looks like a hill at first glance
18:18:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah landscape too hilly in the near area to be able to tell if the horizon is wobbly or not
18:18:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, also very little parallax I see. Nice
18:18:55 <fizzie> Yes, it is a hill. Well, the freehandiness also meant I had to leave quite a lot of black in there. (Or crop a lot out.)
18:20:02 <fizzie> There's one visible seam near the left edge, in the roof/top-of-balcony of the bricky building visible through a gap in the trees.
18:20:33 <AnMaster> oh indeed, I thought it was strange architecture
18:21:43 <AnMaster> since it neatly lines up with the balcony
18:22:14 <fizzie> There's also source images for at least one (if not two) full-circle panoramas (plus a few wide-angle shots) more from different spots on the hill, but I haven't had time to combinate them yet.
18:22:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, a way to solve having to crop as much would be taking pictures in a lower line as well
18:23:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, where are those hills?
18:24:44 <fizzie> It's called Laturinkallio, and it's approximately here: http://maps.google.com/?ll=60.223788,24.816624&z=17
18:25:57 <fizzie> The houses with the seam are in the "triangle" between Laturinkatu / Porarinkatu / Mestarintie/Kehä I in that map; Google's satellite image is too old to show them. (They've been built mostly during this year.)
18:26:06 <AnMaster> how strange it is to see both Swedish and Finnish names on things
18:26:30 <AnMaster> Though "Laddargränden" is a strange Swedish name for an alley
18:26:46 <AnMaster> Laddar is not a Swedish word that I know
18:27:06 <fizzie> That particular bit of road is "Laturinkuja" (where fi:kuja == en:alley) in Finnish, too.
18:27:48 <AnMaster> No it says "Nikkaripolku" on that one?
18:28:01 <fizzie> It changes name there.
18:28:02 <AnMaster> or does the road rename is the middle?
18:28:33 <fizzie> It doesn't continue so smoothly as the map makes it look like; there's a series of steps there in the middle, you can't drive a car through.
18:29:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, besides, I doubt it goes through those houses
18:29:34 <fizzie> Right. Openstreetmap represents it a lot better: http://osm.org/go/0xPMNrFE?layers=M
18:30:12 <fizzie> Lacks the Swedish names, though. (Or doesn't show them, anyway; I would think they are in the metadata still.)
18:30:20 <AnMaster> it still goes through the houses
18:31:26 <fizzie> Well, it goes right next to the houses. There's no satellite-map overlay in osm, so I'm not sure how well it is actually placed.
18:31:43 <fizzie> OSM also shows the current and future routes of Kehä I; there's a large road project going on there.
18:33:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, on the north or south side of them?
18:34:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, also you could drive a car there. With sufficiently large wheels
18:35:02 <fizzie> It's not a very wide path. But yes, for some values of "car" you could drive one through.
18:35:20 <fizzie> http://kartat.eniro.fi/m/pKpro shows both the houses *and* the road, if you're curious.
18:35:32 <cpressey> oerjan: Shelta has been implemented in itself -- is that worth adding to EsoInterpreters?
18:35:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, hey I thought eniro was Swedish!?
18:36:15 <fizzie> Also, here's the beginning of the steps: http://kartat.eniro.fi/m/pKpmQ -- it should go directly to eniro's streetview-alike.
18:36:41 <fizzie> Admittedly there are those ramps for wheelchairs, those might help a bit in driving up there.
18:36:49 <fizzie> (Down would be easier, I guess.)
18:37:17 <AnMaster> as in, I get a blank photo and no "plugin missing" bar at the top
18:37:32 <fizzie> Curious; it works-for-me(tm).
18:37:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, well with _sufficiently_ large wheels it shouldn't be any issue anyway. Heck with *sufficiently* large wheels that hill wouldn't pose a problem at all, it would just like a bump in the "road"
18:38:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, enabled javascript too
18:38:24 <fizzie> For both eniro.fi and eniro.com?-)
18:38:55 <fizzie> Hm, well. You can click "Katunäkymä" in the earlier map and try to navigate there manually.
18:38:59 <AnMaster> oh wait, if I enlarge the window I see far out on the right: "Gatuvy behöver Adobe Flash."
18:39:33 <AnMaster> strange it was translated to Swedish
18:39:44 <AnMaster> since browser is set to English
18:39:52 <fizzie> Google hasn't bothered to run their streetview car into Nikkarinkuja. But they have driven to the end of Laturinkuja, you just can't see the steps so well from there.
18:40:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay, localising google earth binary
18:40:32 <fizzie> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=60.223373,24.81612&spn=0.005014,0.013036&z=17&layer=c&cbll=60.223491,24.816834&panoid=DOmQFc4jsxgXEgAuw9xc2w&cbp=12,202.36,,0,-3.3 points at Google's streetview hopefully.
18:40:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't do in browser due to previously mentioned lack of flash
18:41:05 <AnMaster> should be able to do it in google earth
18:41:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, or you could just upload a screenshot of it for the .fi one
18:41:34 <fizzie> I was just about to suggest that. A moment.
18:41:57 <AnMaster> hm where *is* the google earth steuff
18:42:18 <cpressey> oerjan: Er... it's actually a Shelta->8086 compiler written in Shelta. Not technically a self-interpreter.
18:42:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/steps.jpg
18:42:52 <cpressey> The whole page is about *interpreters*
18:43:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I wonder how google solves the parallax in their pictures. Since their cameras can't all be in the same place
18:43:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yeah indeed some problems for your average car
18:45:38 <fizzie> The streetview car (well, one of them) looks funky: http://sfcitizen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/2584018127_c2701eaef8_o.jpg
18:45:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure that ramp is for wheelchairs and not baby wagons (is that the English term for it?
18:46:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems quite horrible to drive an electric wheelchair up that
18:46:50 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it would be mostly used by baby carriages (I think that's the term).
18:46:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that a policeman behind it?
18:47:04 <fizzie> It looks like one; I'm not sure what's happening in the picture.
18:47:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway those cameras look really strange
18:47:39 <fizzie> The four beige blocks are some sort of laser range-finders.
18:47:43 <AnMaster> err, if the cameras are the black ones at top
18:47:49 <AnMaster> if they are the white ones then even stranger
18:48:38 <fizzie> I guess. It said "tan" in the page describing the photo, I just picked yet another light colour.
18:49:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, still it doesn't explain how to 1) solve parallax 2) solve nadir image
18:49:40 <AnMaster> the nadir one tends to have parallax at google though
18:49:59 <AnMaster> I suspect they extract that one from the next/previous one
18:50:45 <fizzie> http://www.byetman.com/2008/06/17/google-street-view-car-busted-in-more-ways-than-one/ claims that they're range-finders.
18:51:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ooh, here's a better look at the camera: http://ekstreme.com/images/google-streetview-camera-1.jpg
18:54:32 <AnMaster> okay the camera thing is definitely the one at the top
18:54:40 <AnMaster> still how the fuck do they solve parallax
18:55:32 <fizzie> Well, there's not *that* much of it. And they do know the (relative) positions of their cameras and all.
18:55:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and a fun thing I noticed at E20 of google street view: on the north bound side it showed a road covered with rain water, on the south bound side it was sunny
18:56:33 <oerjan> solving parallax is such a paradox
18:56:33 <fizzie> Yeah, "big" roads like that have some discontinuities.
18:56:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus since there were two lanes in each direction on that section it showed that there was cloudy in the outer lane in the south bound direction :D
18:57:22 <AnMaster> cloudy but not raining that is
18:57:31 <fizzie> Ha, and as for "solving" parallax, I just rotated the "Laturinkuja" Google streetview image around, and there's a very nice ghostly duplicate of one tree here. I'll screenshotify it.
18:57:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, they use cars to do it too?
18:58:16 <AnMaster> <oerjan> solving parallax is such a paradox <-- that one was so bad
18:59:12 <oerjan> virtually without parallel
18:59:17 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/ghost-tree.jpg <-- I wouldn't call that a "solved" merging of their panorama images.
18:59:38 <fizzie> (There's a bit of a seam in the sidewalk too.)
19:02:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed, even hugin does better
19:02:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, hugin would give a cut off tree instead
19:03:27 <fizzie> Yes, their image-blender seems more enfusey than enblendy.
19:03:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, but enfuse is so much slower than enblend that I doubt it would be feasible to run that on so much data
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19:06:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, while we're at it, here's one of the wide-angle huginizations: http://zem.fi/~fis/P1070756-760.jpg -- the road that goes parallel to the picture there is Laturinkuja/Laddargränden.
19:14:40 <cpressey> oerjan: At any rate, that table has got me thinking about the feasibility of implementing esolangs in other esolangs. Like, why implementing Thue in Kipple, or Kipple in Thue, would both be hard, for different reasons.
19:15:24 <oerjan> thue has that pesky no good IO problem
19:15:51 <cpressey> oerjan: I was just about to say that -- it extends to initial data being pesky as well, doesn't it?
19:16:39 <cpressey> e.g. The initial data would be a Kipple program -- you'd first need to transform that into something you could interpret -- and that would be ugly. Well, I guess not impossible though.
19:16:53 <oerjan> well initial data is no more allowed to be free format than input is
19:17:25 <cpressey> For some languages, for some small character sets, it might be impossible
19:17:30 <oerjan> the thing is _everything_ in free format can clash with the thue program source
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19:18:00 <cpressey> You need disjoint character subsets for the initial data and the "intermediate representation"
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19:19:11 <oerjan> Itflabtijtswi, which is also substitution based, solves this by reading only single characters at a time
19:20:56 <ais523> cpressey: do you allow compiling esolangs into esolangs?
19:21:18 <ais523> the big problem with Thue, really, is a sort of wire-crossing problem
19:21:36 <ais523> it's a pain to move data from one end of the program to the other
19:21:46 <cpressey> ais523: I just now wanted to add the Shelta->8086 compiler written in Shelta to the page, but decided against it because it's excpliticly about EsoInterpreters.
19:21:47 <oerjan> if someone starts compiling esolangs into esolangs with esolangs, we will certainly need to put that on the wiki somewhere
19:22:02 <ais523> cpressey: try adding it to the Shelta page
19:22:06 <ais523> if it isn't there already
19:22:25 <ais523> oerjan: does Perl count?
19:23:05 <ais523> compiling esolangs into esolangs with esolangs is something I've been considering, incidentally
19:23:11 <ais523> I really need to finish Cyclexa sometime
19:23:15 <ais523> or, well, properly start it
19:26:57 <oerjan> i thought that was most of the point with your underlambda thing
19:28:50 <ais523> underlambda's a language to compile via, or will be when I finish it
19:28:56 <ais523> hmm, RL gets in the way of esolanging so much
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19:40:30 <cpressey> I should learn Underload sometime.
19:41:13 <cpressey> Has anyone designed a language with the goal of making quines hard to write?
19:42:38 <ais523> someone tried to make a language where they were impossible to write
19:42:46 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
19:42:47 <ais523> on the basis that any program that was a quine was rejected, anything else ran fine
19:43:00 <cpressey> Well yes, they argued with me that such a language exists *in principle*, which is true ;)
19:43:17 <oerjan> cpressey: not only did they do so, but you invented narcissists because of it
19:44:27 <oerjan> but their idea iirc is a trivial modification that can be applied to any language
19:44:30 <cpressey> But right now I'm just thinking of a language that would make quine-writing ugly. For lack of a better way to put it.
19:45:26 <oerjan> well the more awkward computing and printing strings is...
19:46:07 <cpressey> oerjan: It was Underload's "in output, parens must be balanced" that got me wondering about it.
19:48:18 <oerjan> well then, anything that makes it _impossible_ to print a program source in the language would pretty much ruin things. see intercal-72.
19:48:34 <ais523> you could still encode it somehow, though
19:48:44 <cpressey> Yeah, yeah. Not what I'm thinking of :)
19:48:58 <oerjan> encoding output is entirely contrary to the spirit of quines
19:49:06 <cpressey> btw, why are []<> reserved in Underload anyway?
19:49:20 <cpressey> Seems a bit arbitrary, reading through the spec
19:49:23 <ais523> in a language like Unlambda, quines are hard because of the difficulty of copying data
19:49:26 <ais523> and yes, it is rather arbitrary
19:49:32 <ais523> it's for backwards compatibility with something that doesn't exist
19:49:53 <cpressey> I see. I notice <>'s appear in the stack when you single-step trhough the JS interpreter
19:50:02 <ais523> they're the stack separator
19:50:09 <oerjan> i'd say with unlambda it's more about the awkwardness of string representation
19:50:27 <ais523> I use that because it's illegal in the input program, or in the working
19:50:58 <ais523> a "neater" representation, though, is simply to parenthesise the stack elements
19:51:06 <oerjan> the shortest unlambda quine is a rather evil continuation hack
19:51:36 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
19:51:45 <oerjan> (btw the one in the distribution can be shortened somewhat, because it misses the optimization `kv = k or something like that
19:51:53 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
19:52:14 <ais523> and you mean `kv=v, surely?
19:52:33 <ais523> you can think of v as a fixpoint for k
19:53:09 <oerjan> yep, it has a `kv in it
19:53:37 <ais523> incidentally, I think I have a continuations impl for Underlambda written in Underlambda preprocessor somewhere
19:53:43 <ais523> and it would be easy enough to adapt to Underload
19:54:07 <ais523> as all Underload commands but S translate directly to Underlambda
19:54:27 <oerjan> and when you simplify that, you shave off ``sc.```s``sc.k``s as well
19:54:46 <ais523> you'd need to modify the string representation too, wouldn't you?
19:54:52 <oerjan> (since that's the part of the function representing the `k)
19:55:02 <oerjan> that's what i'm saying
19:55:28 <ais523> more languages need continuations
19:55:53 <ais523> I'm still really proud of continuation.i
19:57:04 <ais523> I implemented continuations in INTERCAL
19:57:18 <ais523> pure INTERCAL, that is, it doesn't even use an external C library
19:57:30 <ais523> (pure C-INTERCAL; doing so in INTERCAL-72 would be insane)
19:57:38 <cpressey> Jeez. That suggests CONTINUE FROM to me.
19:57:45 <oerjan> hey insanity is an advantage here
19:58:04 <ais523> cpressey: that's a three-liner; NEXT FROM, make a continuation, RESUME
19:58:08 <cpressey> My mind just drove into a tree.
19:59:23 <cpressey> Ah, but it reminded me of the idea I had earlier this morning, that I forgot. Thank you!
20:01:42 <ais523> I actually really like C-INTERCAL's control flow, more languages should use it
20:01:55 <ais523> it's a lot more natural, in a way, then the kludges many other languages use to do much the same thing
20:02:19 <oerjan> ais523: you need a *MWAHAHAHAHA* after saying that
20:08:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, while we're at it, here's one of the wide-angle huginizations: http://zem.fi/~fis/P1070756-760.jpg -- the road that goes parallel to the picture there is Laturinkuja/Laddargränden. <-- nice
20:09:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, you should like totally take multiple 360° panos and link them together like a virtual fizzie off-street view :D
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20:37:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I have a question about nwn toolset. How on earth do I create new items of cloth type armour. I seem unable to manage anything but light armor.
20:38:10 <AnMaster> ais523, editing cloth type also turns it into light armor
20:38:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I think I have 1.69 or whatever the last one was called. Diamond edition iirc
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21:04:48 <Sgeo> "A regular expression to check for prime numbers"
21:04:54 <Sgeo> I'm assuming that that's a joke
21:05:14 <Sgeo> Oh, it's supposedly for un.. wait, still
21:07:15 <ais523> in unary, with Perl 5.10 regexen, ^(aa+){2,}$(*PRUNE)(*FAIL)|
21:07:44 <ais523> actually, Perl's been stealing a whole bunch of features from Cyclexa, just with more unwieldy syntax
21:07:57 <ais523> coppro: representing, say, 9 as aaaaaaaa
21:08:12 <ais523> length of a string used to represent the number
21:08:20 <coppro> I thought you meant a language or something
21:08:22 <ais523> pattern-matching esolangs tend to use it, as it's easiest
21:08:37 <ais523> and there is a lang called Unary, but it's one of those concept things like HQ9+
21:08:57 <coppro> what do *PRUNE and *FAIL do?
21:09:04 <ais523> cut and fail from Prolog
21:09:21 <Sgeo> Wait, that _works_?
21:09:30 <Sgeo> I assume it must be inefficient for large numbers?
21:09:39 <ais523> AnMaster: change the torso model, the material and AC change to match
21:09:54 <AnMaster> ais523, huh, material is where?
21:10:15 <ais523> AnMaster: not visible directly, but, say, if you recolour leather, looking at what changes colour lets you see what's made of leather
21:10:28 <coppro> is there proof that Perl 5.10 regexes are TC yet?
21:10:42 <ais523> and (*PRUNE) = discard backtracking points before here, (*FAIL) = try to backtrack
21:10:45 <ais523> the combo forces the regex to fail
21:11:45 <ais523> actually, that regex needs special handling for 0 and 1
21:11:50 <ais523> or it marks them as prime
21:12:20 <ais523> as I said, it's unfinished
21:12:26 <AnMaster> ais523, then how can perl steal from it
21:12:32 <coppro> ^($|a$|(aa+){2,})$(*PRUNE)(*FAIL)|
21:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523, if so, a description and dare share your work earlier ;P
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21:13:42 <ais523> AnMaster: a cross between regexen and Prolog
21:14:09 <ais523> with a built-in primitive for recursive replacements on parse trees
21:14:27 <ais523> (most langs don't have a primitive /that/ specialised; Cyclexa was intended to write compilers)
21:15:34 <cpressey> I have to give Cyclexa points for sounding like the marketing name for a drug.
21:16:05 <cpressey> Talk to your doctor about Cyclexa!
21:16:45 <ais523> if you match a string against normal text, that text is removed from the string
21:16:52 <ais523> if you match a string against antitext, it's added to the string
21:16:54 <AnMaster> hm the crickets are *really* loud outside today
21:17:06 <ais523> thus you end up with a TC language, rather than an LBA
21:17:54 <AnMaster> ais523, is it always added? Or only in case of a non-match?
21:18:12 <ais523> how can it fail to match?
21:18:22 <ais523> but ofc that bit of the regex might not run at all
21:19:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well fail to match = only added if not there already
21:19:40 <ais523> err, adding something != removing it
21:19:41 <Madk> esolangs.org is down
21:19:45 <ais523> I don't see why you'd consider those the same
21:19:51 <Madk> that was short
21:19:58 <ais523> Madk: working fine for me
21:20:21 <cpressey> Howabout, nondeterministic regexp replacements: so s/a/xy/ on "baza" yields {baza, bxyza, bazxy, bxyzxy}
21:21:09 <cpressey> Too bad Perl insists on being deterministic. I mean in general
21:21:21 <AnMaster> cpressey, doesn't it have an rng?
21:21:30 <ais523> I'm reasonably certain you can do something like that in Cyclexa
21:21:46 <cpressey> AnMaster: I mean the theory-of-computation meaning of nondeterminstic
21:22:15 <ais523> but backtracking does nondeterminism, in a rather inefficient way
21:22:29 <cpressey> ais523: That's why I added "in general" :>
21:22:35 <ais523> I imagine something like a=(xy|) would be enough to do what cpressey suggested
21:23:03 <AnMaster> ais523, explain that syntax or post daft spec
21:23:19 <ais523> daft specs would seem a rather appropriate thing for this channel
21:23:37 <AnMaster> ais523, err? isn't that a good thing?
21:23:37 <ais523> AnMaster: "replace a with xy or nothing"
21:23:46 <AnMaster> augur, yes ruby is horrible from what I seen
21:23:52 <ais523> I think you'd need a modifier to do a global replace, but I forget what it is offhand
21:24:01 <augur> AnMaster: i love ruby
21:24:06 <augur> i just discovered something wonderful about ruby :D
21:24:33 <augur> yes, but not for scripting and the like
21:24:48 <augur> but i discovered that ruby has minor pattern matching :D
21:25:11 <AnMaster> augur, erlang has pattern matching on par with haskell. better for some things, slightly worse for some
21:25:31 <augur> perhaps. but i like being able to dick around in TextMate and test things like and so forth
21:25:41 <AnMaster> augur, I have no idea about that editor
21:25:47 <ais523> Prolog's pattern matching beats Haskell's
21:26:16 <cpressey> ais523: I think I saw someone that tried to add regexps to Haskell's pattern matching !
21:26:23 <ais523> AnMaster: that's rather out of context...
21:26:36 <augur> [[1,2], [3,4]].map { |(a,b)| a+b } == [3,7]
21:26:51 <cpressey> ais523: It's not a bad idea, I don't think, but the potential for mess... yeah.
21:27:13 <augur> its like, i can do map (\[a,b] -> a+b) [[1,2], [3,4]]
21:27:33 <ais523> surely the clean method would just be 'myFunction a | a `matchesRegex` "regex" = ...'
21:27:45 <AnMaster> augur, and you can't in haskell?
21:27:51 <augur> no no, you CAN in haskell
21:28:01 <augur> but i discoverd you can do the thing above that in ruby!
21:28:12 <augur> do haskell, then do ruby/
21:28:21 <augur> but i'd prefer >>= to >> honestly
21:28:25 <augur> i mean lets be serious here
21:28:33 <augur> i know what you meant, spergface
21:28:43 <AnMaster> spergface? I never heard that insult before
21:28:53 <pikhq> [a+b|a<-[1,2],b<-[3,4]] -- Better.
21:29:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, that hurts. Interestingly I think it also is valid erlang, or nearly so
21:29:19 <augur> pikhq, yes, but not as illustrative
21:29:56 <AnMaster> I wonder why it returns an empty list
21:30:07 <pikhq> (\[a,b]->a+b)<$>[[1,2],[3,4]]
21:30:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, couldn't you do [a+b|[a,b]<-[[1,2],[3,4]]]
21:30:39 <cpressey> Haskell has some srsly gnarly operators for being an academic language.
21:30:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, would it do the same though
21:31:34 <pikhq> cpressey: Yeah, well. Hooray, functions.
21:31:56 <pikhq> <$>, BTW, is not in Prelude.
21:32:00 <pikhq> Data.Applicative has it.
21:32:15 <AnMaster> I don't think I got that far yet
21:32:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's infix fmap.
21:32:26 <augur> applicative functors! :D
21:32:34 <augur> i just read that in Learn You a Haskell
21:32:50 <pikhq> It goes along with <*>, which is the applicative functor operator...
21:33:06 <augur> <$> :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
21:33:17 <augur> <*> :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
21:33:25 <pikhq> *Basically* it lets you apply the function in a functor to another functor. <*> :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
21:34:12 <augur> <$> is sort of like liftA1 isnt it there
21:34:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, ouch that hurts to think about
21:34:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Most obviously useful for applying a list of functions to a list. ;)
21:35:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes quite. Still somewhat mindbending
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21:38:15 <pikhq> Also, curried functions.
21:38:26 <pikhq> (+)<$>[1..]<*>[2..]
21:39:22 <oerjan> i don't think that ever gets past the first 1
21:39:30 <coppro> yeah, that shouldn't work AFAICT
21:40:05 <oerjan> the applicative instance for lists is cartesian product based, not zipping
21:40:05 <cpressey> One degree of gnarliness too far.
21:40:12 <oerjan> i.e. same as the monad
21:40:49 <pikhq> The zipping instance doesn't get you a monad, so that's not the default.
21:41:01 <oerjan> you could use ZipLists but that's awkward
21:41:18 <oerjan> actually it _does_ give a monad, it's just a different one
21:41:44 <pikhq> I thought it violated monad laws if you allowed for finite ziplists?
21:41:47 <oerjan> and it's not defined in the source
21:42:04 <pikhq> Regardless, it's not a ziplist because the monad instance isn't.
21:42:21 <pikhq> And inconsistent instances make me sad.
21:43:10 <oerjan> i believed i checked it once, and you can define it. join is essentially taking the diagonal, with some care (all the previous lists must be at least that length or you do get a law failure)
21:45:00 <pikhq> Okay, so you get a valid instance, with some restrictions.
21:45:17 <pikhq> Whereas the actually used instance has no such restrictions.
21:45:23 <oerjan> um i didn't mean restrictions
21:45:49 <pikhq> So I misunderstood.
21:45:59 <Madk> what other than the collatz and fibonacci sequences should I make examples for in my language?
21:46:06 <oerjan> i meant you need to take care when defining join that you cannot use a diagonal element unless all the "square" above and to the left are also defined
21:46:21 <Madk> I'm thinking juggler, but then I have to figure out how to get a square root
21:50:11 <Madk> preferably not a gigantic one :|
21:50:33 <Madk> also, wikipedia isn't clear on how the kolakoski sequence works
21:51:33 <oerjan> the nth number is the length of the nth block of equal digits. blocks alternate with 1s and 2s, and 1 starts the sequence
21:51:38 <coppro> 1, 11, 21, 1211, 111221, 312211, etc.
21:52:03 <oerjan> coppro: um that's look-and-say
21:52:49 <oerjan> Madk: oh also factorial
21:56:48 <augur> 's new image search design is nice
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22:09:03 <cpressey> There are two things that seem "obvious" to me but for which no proof has been found. 1. P < NP 2. There are an equal number of 1's and 2's in the Kolakoski sequence.
22:10:13 <augur> cpressey: the wonderful thing about proofs is that seeming is irrelevant
22:11:01 <cpressey> augur: Indeed their power to dispel illusion is unmatched.
22:11:30 <augur> i await the day when we have a proof that P = NP
22:11:35 <augur> just so i can shove it in your face. :D
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22:11:49 -!- augur has joined.
22:12:06 <augur> just so i can shove it in your face
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22:15:03 <augur> dispel sorry. i thought you had said expel (for god knows what reason) and my client died before i could get a good look
22:15:23 <augur> pretend everything i said made sense!
22:15:56 <cpressey> I have a lot of practice doing that all the time at work anyway.
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22:37:18 <augur> brainpipe looks good
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22:41:23 * Sgeo needs a set of earphones that aren't so fragile that I will end up breaking the wire and being unable to listen with both ears
22:42:23 <pikhq> Sgeo: Get. Proper. Headphones.
22:42:38 <Sgeo> pikhq, I _had_ headphones. They broke.
22:42:54 <pikhq> That sounds improper.
22:42:57 <Sgeo> I think one of the wires broke or something
22:42:59 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~())~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
22:43:19 <Sgeo> Because now audio only comes out of one.. ear thing, unless I hold the thing in position just right
22:43:32 <pikhq> Pay money for ones with replacable wires. Or at *least* one with not-shitty wires.
22:44:10 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~())~*(b1)S^(b2)S(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
22:44:10 <fungot> 12b12 ...out of stack!
22:44:46 <Sgeo> Something similar happened to my earbuds just today
22:44:50 <Sgeo> So I think it's me
22:45:06 <Sgeo> erm, yesterday
22:45:16 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~())~*aSaSaS
22:45:17 <fungot> 12(~()(2)S:**a(~:)~*^~)((2)S:**a(~:)~*^~)((1)S*a(~:)~*^~)
22:45:22 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~())~*aSaSaSaS
22:45:22 <fungot> 12(~()(2)S:**a(~:)~*^~)((2)S:**a(~:)~*^~)((1)S*a(~:)~*^~) ...out of stack!
22:46:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: About how thick would you say those wires are?
22:46:29 <Sgeo> Which ones, the headphone ones or the earbud ones?
22:47:01 <Sgeo> The headphone wires look thick
22:47:07 <Sgeo> Earbuds, not so much
22:47:18 <Sgeo> Let me take a pic
22:47:22 <pikhq> Mmkay. Get ones with replacable cables.
22:47:51 <pikhq> (the attached headphones, BTW, will almost certainly be absolutely wonderful to listen to)
22:47:52 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
22:47:54 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
22:48:08 <ais523> oerjan: what sequence is that?
22:48:18 <oerjan> kolakoski, assuming it's correct
22:48:46 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/DVIRu.jpg
22:49:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: "image not found"
22:49:40 <Sgeo> pikhq, hm, I see
22:50:08 <Sgeo> I have no clue why, though
22:50:09 * oerjan notes it seems to match what's on wikipedia
22:50:12 <Sgeo> Weird font on the phone?
22:50:43 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/DVlRu.jpg
22:51:32 <pikhq> Definitely need replacable wiring.
22:51:51 <pikhq> Sad, though; noise cancelling headphones that can have a broken wire.
22:52:03 <Sgeo> I don't use the noise cancellation
22:52:06 <Sgeo> These were my dad's
22:52:35 <Sgeo> If I hold the wire just right, it works
22:52:45 <pikhq> Get you some Sennheiser phones.
22:53:27 * cpressey translates the poem from Greek into an archaic form of English so that it *still* doesn't rhyme.
22:54:09 <oerjan> cpressey: now you have even more reason to learn underload *evil cackle*
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22:54:58 <Sgeo> Are wireless headphones any good?
22:55:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:55:27 <Sgeo> WTF at $1000 headphones
22:55:34 <oerjan> ais523: you're right, using a(...)~*^ is convenient :)
22:56:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: And you'll never have to buy them again.
22:56:51 <Sgeo> I am not paying $1000 for headphones
22:57:32 <pikhq> Darnit, you're not made of money.
22:59:25 <Sgeo> http://www.sennheiserusa.com/private_headphones_audiophile-headphones_005341 is that decent?
23:00:04 <pikhq> If by "decent" you mean "as good as you can get without selling organs", then yes.
23:02:40 <Sgeo> My dad says he has headphones in the house
23:02:48 <Sgeo> And that he'll try something called a "relief fold"
23:10:23 <Gregor-P> Somebody in here mentioned a very long time ago a company that prints custom cards for card games ... any recollection?
23:11:54 * oerjan recalls zzo38 being involved in such a discussion
23:12:34 <oerjan> and it wasn't _that_ long ago, i think it was this year
23:12:58 <Gregor-P> For me, that's a lifetime ago.
23:13:16 <oerjan> for some reason i have a feeling pikhq was involved, too
23:13:29 <pikhq> No, but I'm now curious.
23:15:09 <Gregor-P> My mother-in-law is convinced that I need to adjust Hydra to involve some cusom cards, then produce it and try to pitch it to e.g. Mattel or Hasbro. Which is hilariously absurd, but I like step 1 :P
23:15:10 <oerjan> well that's as much as my vague memory contains. well that and that it was expensive to do.
23:16:11 <oerjan> hydra? is this anything to do with that goldstein sequence thing?
23:16:29 <pikhq> Gregor-P: If by "Hasbro" she means "Wizards of the Coast", it might almost work.
23:16:38 <cpressey> Yes, it's a card game that relies on transfinite induction.
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23:19:24 <Gregor-W> Tired of typing on my phone :P
23:19:35 <Gregor-W> http://codu.org/wiki/Hydra <-- Hydra is this
23:21:41 <Gregor-W> (People seem to enjoy it because the rules are quite simple but, as the number of heads increases, it has a surprising amount of strategy involved)
23:22:31 <Sgeo> These aren't circumaural
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23:24:04 <oerjan> transaural, for airheads
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23:26:36 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Qb7ns.jpg
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23:29:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: Insufficiently Sennheiser!
23:30:18 <Gregor-W> I see nobody has opinions on my card game :P
23:30:42 <Sgeo> Will these at least have decent sound quality?
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23:39:45 <Sgeo> I think these are minimum-volume headphones
23:40:05 <oerjan> you need a very small head to use them
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23:55:55 <ais523> oerjan: heh, why did you put the a there?
23:56:02 <ais523> I suppose it works the same way there, and after the ~
23:56:06 <ais523> Underload is a rather redundant language
23:58:09 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
23:58:10 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
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23:59:20 <oerjan> i guess i thought of ~* as more of a unit
00:00:08 <ais523> whereas I think of ~a*^ as the entire unit
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00:00:48 <oerjan> it's like, (~:)~* is prepending (~:)
00:02:30 <ais523> both ~* and ~a*^ have single-character abbreviations in Underlambda
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00:07:50 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*(~:)~a*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~(*()~)~a*^~^):^
00:07:51 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
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00:22:03 <_Madk> check out the m-code page
00:22:11 <_Madk> it's got a good few improvements
00:22:23 <_Madk> The lie is a pake.
00:22:42 <_Madk> The lie is not a pake, that would just be silly.
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00:24:05 <pikhq> Seems like we have an IRC noob.
00:24:22 <oerjan> _Madk: he has a really bad connection and keeps reconnecting all the time
00:24:28 <_Madk> I don't do IRC much
00:26:14 <ais523> it's one person using two nicks, due to having a dodgy connection
00:26:30 <ais523> because you can't connect with a nick that's busy timing out
00:26:41 <ais523> so you connect with an alternate nick, and then change back when the original times out
00:26:45 <Gregor-W> And then I said something too.
00:26:56 <oerjan> Gregor-W: no you didn't!
00:27:44 <oerjan> I CANNOT HEAR YOU LALALALALA
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00:38:12 <Gregor-W> The fact that SourceForge is #158 in the Alexa top list says a lot about either:
00:38:18 <Gregor-W> The people who use the Alexa toolbar, or
00:38:23 <Gregor-W> The people who use the web in general.
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03:07:22 <Gregor> I have an announcement!
03:07:27 <Gregor> And that announcement is:
03:07:32 <HackEgo> Congratulations! Gregor's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
03:08:04 <Gregor> We now have an obnoxious F-word profanity filter :P
03:24:47 <augur> you know of any good reads?
03:25:29 <Gregor> Guhh ... I pretty much research papers :P
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03:28:14 <augur> you're missing a verb there, Gregor
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03:28:57 <Gregor> Noes! They're my sustenance.
03:30:47 <Gregor> Also I haven't seen any really great one recently :P. PLDI this year had a few gems, Pizlo's GC paper is worth a read and the print floating point numbers one was bizarrely interesting since it should have been a ridiculous subject.
03:30:57 <Gregor> And of course Richards' JavaScript paper was awesome ;)
03:33:16 <augur> i just want some good papers :|
03:33:22 <augur> on interesting ideas
03:33:29 <augur> things with interesting ways of viewing a problem
03:33:39 <augur> especially something with great visualizations, if they're appropriate
03:33:54 <Gregor> My JS paper has great "visualizations" (read: charts :P )
03:35:21 <augur> i mean visualizations of a concept
03:35:36 <Gregor> Well, PL doesn't usually have great visualizations :P
03:35:50 <Gregor> Go read a graphics paper ;)
03:36:07 <augur> PL can have wonderful visualizations
03:36:11 <augur> doesnt always happen, but
03:36:21 <augur> Huet's zippers have a GREAT visualization, but he doesnt use it
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03:45:12 <augur> cmon, Gregor, please? :(
03:45:36 <Gregor> Huh? I gave you refs, if you don't want any of them, too bad :P
03:46:14 <augur> oh sorry, my client crashed
03:46:31 <Gregor> You responded to me :P
03:46:39 <Gregor> <Gregor> Also I haven't seen any really great one recently :P. PLDI this year had a few gems, Pizlo's GC paper is worth a read and the print floating point numbers one was bizarrely interesting since it should have been a ridiculous subject.
03:46:39 <Gregor> <Gregor> And of course Richards' JavaScript paper was awesome ;)
03:46:48 <Gregor> ^^^ Here are your references. Go read them :P
03:48:19 <augur> oh, well. thats lame
03:48:38 <Gregor> Well then pff to you! I haven't got any off the top of my head.
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07:06:15 <SgeoN1> I am seriously considering using XML. I think this is proof that C# has rotted my brain.
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09:45:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: Gah, I just debugged a bug out of cfunge-0.9.0 (at work, used the latest official release, I'm not even sure we have bzr here) -- http://pastebin.com/chmNfELi -- but it seems you already fixed that in rev 842.
09:47:56 <Deewiant> Updating software before debugging it is a good idea :-P
09:49:29 <fizzie> I don't even know where I should point bzr at to get the latest code. Launchpad?
09:53:01 <fizzie> Uhm. I updated to what I got with "bzr branch lp:cfunge", and it's broken in a different way now.
09:54:44 <fizzie> This is what I get now: http://pastebin.com/7bJ69SvM
09:55:05 <fizzie> First there were too many terminating \0s; now there's none.
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10:38:48 <Deewiant> My cfunge and ccbi both say "120 0 64 0"
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10:54:55 <fizzie> Hm. Well, like the paste says, I get "120 64 0 0" from cfunge r849, and "120 0 0 64" from cfunge 0.9.0 (not sure what revision that corresponds to); but "120 0 64 0" from an old cfunge-0.3.3.
10:57:30 <Deewiant> The obvious solution is to use ccbi
11:00:28 <fizzie> The obvious solution would be to not dabble with any silly Funge-98 code but do something more sensible instead.
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13:33:47 <fizzie> Madk: Here's a random suggestion: since the $ label = [42] syntax is not so useful -- you get the same with |$label| [42] already -- why not make it work the same way "normal" assemblers do "label: equ 42", that is, directly define the value for the label? Currently it's a bit hard to define named constants there.
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13:35:15 <Madk> Thanks for the idea
13:36:54 <fizzie> I've also been dabbling with a Funge-98 M-code interpreter. I have a parser that correctly handles the labels and such in the more complicated hello-world example -- http://sprunge.us/EcNY -- but the actual interpreter side is lacking, currently it just dumps out the initial memory contents.
13:38:29 <Madk> Well, the syntax for what you described is going to be $meaning:42
13:38:39 <Madk> as opposed to $address=42
13:38:45 <fizzie> Mm'k. That works, too.
13:39:09 <Madk> that tends to slip my mind :|
13:40:01 <Madk> my parser doesn't check for duplicate labels either
13:40:05 <Madk> maybe it should
13:41:36 <fizzie> I also don't check at the end whether all the referenced labels were actually defined; I think currently any undefined ones will end up having the value -1 when referenced to with |label|.
13:42:03 <Madk> Mine does 0 for undefined labels, but it outputs an error to the console
13:42:18 <Madk> If you don't close a [], a ||, or a // comment, it lets you know
13:42:29 <Madk> and if you call an undefined label it lets you know
13:42:41 <fizzie> Befunge is funny; I wrote that thing not more than a moment ago, and it's already starting to resemble a meaningless jumble of characters unless I try to focus.
13:42:59 <Madk> and if you attempt to write program memory to an address greater than the array size, it wraps around to the beginning but it still lets you know
13:43:23 <Madk> that's always fun :P
13:43:53 <fizzie> I mean, to pick a random line: "Vv#G70_v#+`0'g70`g700' +g2bg2a P70Lg2bG1g2a P70 <"
13:44:00 <Madk> You know the saying that if you look at code you wrote a month ago it'll be like it was written by someone else?
13:44:11 <Madk> In esoteric languages it's more like 5 minutes
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13:52:36 <Madk> fizzie: When the interpreter has finished parsing and storing the code in memory, it outputs it to a file with all comments removed before it actally runs it. Are you planning on implementing anything similar?
13:53:35 <Madk> It does also remove labels and replaces them with proper numbers
13:53:57 <fizzie> Well, I guess I could, reasonably easily.
13:54:53 <Madk> the source is in the interpreter download, so if you want to make sure you don't miss anything, you may want to check out the output function in the shared source file
13:55:58 <fizzie> I'll probably worry about compliance after I get a hello-world running.
13:59:56 <Madk> I wish I knew why the BF interpreter is so slow, everything else seems to run quite quickly :/
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14:32:33 <Madk> my 99 bottles of beer program is failing on me
14:32:53 <Madk> my string-printing code doesn't like me
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14:35:24 <fizzie> Um. The spec in the wiki has two definitions for backslash: "Handle the string in memory by -- getting it from input" and "Copy the value in the A register into both B and C".
14:36:08 <Madk> how about changing that second thing to "Y"
14:37:46 <Madk> also, just noticed
14:37:56 <Madk> the definition for @ and 0 isn't entirely accurate
14:38:02 <Madk> they add it to the end of the memory string
14:38:10 <Madk> they don't actually put it in the console
14:40:47 <Madk> fizzie: just a heads-up, I think my label code has contracted a bug. Once it's fixed or I find out I just did something stupid in my m-code, I'll be uiploading the new interpreter with the Y command and the $label:[42] stuff
14:44:45 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ echo hello.m | cfunge m-code.b98
14:44:56 <fizzie> Yay. (The first and third line are printed by my thing.)
14:45:29 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fejI
14:45:31 <Madk> see if the quine works
14:45:39 <fizzie> Probably has several buggeries left, I'd presume.
14:45:54 <fizzie> (Also didn't do file IO or the seven more complicated arithmetical ops yet.)
14:46:47 <Madk> You didn't do &. is this intentional? It's only a logical and
14:47:23 <Madk> You haven't done D (delay by # of ms)
14:47:44 <fizzie> I don't think I can do it very well in Funge-98 without some help from the interpreter.
14:47:51 <Madk> logical, though
14:47:53 <ais523> b98 doesn't have a delay command naturally, does it?
14:47:55 <fizzie> Oh, I misread that those were bitwise ops, which are a bit tricky.
14:48:09 <ais523> in fact, I'm not even sure I know of a delay fingerprint
14:48:24 <Madk> Could you make a loop that takes appx. one ms?
14:48:34 <Madk> iterate the number of times?
14:48:44 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not sure of one either. SGNE has a sleep command, but it has a granularity of seconds.
14:48:48 <Madk> or more and divide the number by the time
14:49:16 <Madk> it's not important, I mainly put it there to help debug my scripts
14:49:37 <fizzie> The HRTI fingerprint has a high-resolution timer, I could do a loop with that.
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14:53:18 <fizzie> I'll add those logical things. The quine doesn't work since I don't clear the memory (so there's leftover crud because of the $35 jump), and anyway it'd just complain about unknown opcode "0"; should undefined ones be nops instead?
14:54:08 <Madk> It's supposed to skip over things that aren't commands
14:54:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I remember that bug. Thanks for writing a regression test case ;P
14:55:10 <Madk> also, a comment-stripped file would give it grief since it usually counts on nops being initialized as 0
14:58:50 <Madk> fizzie: right now, according to the interpreter, the first slot in string memory when using stuff like ^ is 1, not 0. I was going to change that, but haven't got around to it yet
14:59:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I seem to be on rev 849 locally
14:59:08 <Madk> I suppose I'll just do that not, it'll only take a second
14:59:31 <fizzie> Madk: I have most of the memory set to 32, actually, since it's the funge-space default value. I could clean a region, I guess; but I don't do any modulo arithmetics on addresses, and I can't really clean the whole fungespace row to 0. (And manually handling an offset of 32 whenever memory is being read/written isn't very much fun either.)
15:00:48 <fizzie> Ut-oh, the post office's having some silly summer schedules and closes already in an hour; and it'll take me half an hour to get there from work. Away for now, therefore.
15:01:18 <Madk> 32 can just be seen as a nop without too much issue
15:01:33 <Madk> I would expect, at least
15:01:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, please repaste that with a working pastebin, the raw link download is a html with a <pre>
15:01:51 <Madk> it wouldn't be a 0, but it'd still work most of the time
15:02:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's not *that* long, you know.
15:02:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, well use a better one in the future
15:02:38 <fizzie> And there's a "download" link in addition to the "raw" link.
15:03:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you say it should output 120 0 64 0 ?
15:04:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you said some older version did that? Do you happen to know which revision works?
15:04:40 <fizzie> Deewiant said his works.
15:04:52 <fizzie> And he claimed it was r840.
15:05:19 <Madk> why won't the beer work ._.
15:05:34 <Madk> it's not starting looking at the string in the right place
15:07:40 <Madk> for one label it starts reading before the string
15:07:46 <Madk> for the other two it starts reading after
15:08:10 <AnMaster> okay bisecting found r842 as the buggy one
15:08:43 <AnMaster> iirc that fixed another bug though
15:11:45 <Madk> why does it think my label is at 32
15:12:13 <Madk> oh, no it doesn't
15:12:21 <Madk> I think I know what's going on now
15:13:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, strangely enough G doesn't push the ending \0 it seems.
15:13:26 <AnMaster> I wonder if mycology tests with a marker on stack
15:13:31 <Sgeo> I'm suffering from the effects of C# poisoning
15:13:44 <Sgeo> I think that XML is a reasonable, human-readable way to handle something
15:16:06 <Madk> gah, now something else isn't working .-.
15:17:35 <Madk> ok, that's a bit better
15:21:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, here we go *pushes fix*
15:22:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, fix pushed, due to server side caching it may take a few minutes to update on launchpad
15:22:37 * Sgeo wonders if he should attempt to learn OCaml
15:24:10 <ais523> it ought to be better-known than it is
15:24:23 <ais523> ignore the OO stuff in it, though; as far as I know, nobody uses it
15:24:40 <AnMaster> ais523, why not go for standard ML then?
15:24:50 <Sgeo> ...so, just use it as a functional language? Why not just stick with Haskell then?
15:24:57 <ais523> OCaml's more used in industry, IIRC
15:25:00 <ais523> Sgeo: a functional/imperative language
15:25:20 <ais523> Haskell is rather clunky for imperative programming, OCaml combines it pretty seamlessly with the functional stuff
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15:33:20 <Madk> 99 bottles GET
15:33:52 <Madk> It takes up almost the entire 256 bytes, too
15:34:10 <Madk> it takes up more
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15:35:45 <Madk> / This program prints the lyrics to "99 bottles of beer".
15:35:45 <Madk> It exceeds the program memory space offered by 8-bit
15:35:45 <Madk> M-code and therefore is incompatible. //
15:35:45 <Madk> d[183]>[183]bu=G16[224]4[15]j[184]6[209]4[21]j[184]>[183]16[224]
15:35:45 <Madk> 4[30]j[184]4.:;s6[241]4)j[184]>[183]n1}[1]=76[224]4=j[184]6[273]
15:35:45 <Madk> 4=j[184]6[209]4Cj[184];sj[0]0[183]6[273]4Oj[184]6[209]4Uj[184]0[183]
15:35:47 <Madk> 6[273]4]j[184]4.:;s6[289]4hj[184]6[320]4nj[184]6[224]4tj[184]6[209]
15:35:49 <Madk> 4zj[184];s6[320]4[130]j[184]6[224]4[136]j[184]6[209]4[142]j[184]
15:35:51 <Madk> 6[320]4[148]j[184]6[224]4[154]j[184]4.:;s6[328]4[165]j[184]4c16[224]
15:35:53 <Madk> 4[174]j[184]6[209]4[180]j[184];s_d([201]<[202]#[201][192]>[0]b=[203]
15:36:01 <Madk> #[202][207]j[0]_[32]on[32]the[32]wall.[32][0][32]bottles[32]
15:36:03 <Madk> of[32]beer[0]Take[32]one[32]down,[32]pass[32]it[32]around.[32][0][32]b
15:36:05 <Madk> ottle[32]of[32]beer[0]Take[32]it[32]down,[32]pass[32]it[32]around.[32]
15:36:07 <Madk> [0]No[32]more[0]Go[32]to[32]the[32]store[32]and[32]buy[32]some[32]more
15:36:11 <Madk> that didn't work too well :P
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15:48:11 <Madk> fizzie: I just uploaded the new interpreter
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16:02:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: The catseye.tc website content is largely XML, transformed to HTML using XSL
16:02:41 <cpressey> Not that I'm claiming to be either reasonable or human, mind you
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16:20:52 <Gregor> Y'know, if you just wrote XHTML in the first place, no translation would be necessary :P
16:20:56 <AnMaster> cpressey, custom xml *may* be slightly less painful to maintain that a lot of separate html pages. Since the xsl handles the fluff. At least that is my experience from working with some such sites (none of which I initially designed, just maintained)
16:21:15 <AnMaster> of course, fixing or extending the xsl file tends to be extremely painful
16:21:38 <cpressey> Gregor: My bad, I meant to say "transformed to XHTML".
16:21:50 <AnMaster> but if it works it is less irritating than 20 separate xhtml pages
16:22:05 <AnMaster> cpressey, of course it would still be saner to just switch to gopher
16:22:20 <cpressey> AnMaster: I find it is a bit less painful. It's easier to get the end result consistent and correct.
16:22:34 <pikhq> ザ̵̧̻̭̻̫̼̘̦̝̼͔͓̦̰͕͓͋̇̾̓̄ͣ̄͒͛̏̒̏̂̿̑͒͌ͣ́́ル̧̂͗̉̑͒͏̨̣͇̦͖̭̤̥͈̰̤̮̞͔̞̭́̕ゴ ̵̨̨̮̥̜͇͓̹̲͖̣̠̙͖ͩͧ̉ͥ̓͐̒͛͘͟ͅͅ！̷͇̦͉͖̤͓̗̝̳̼̣̳͙̤̺͈͎̅̈́ͥ͋̏ͣ̔̾̆ͯ͑̈́̈ͫͦ͊͌̂́͘̕
16:22:40 <Gregor> GOOD IDEAS IN LANGUAGES, PAGE ONE PARAGRAPH ONE WORD ONE: How
16:22:49 <cpressey> AnMaster: I should figure out a way to run my old BBS software over a telnet server
16:23:14 <cpressey> It was written in Pascal for the Amiga 500. Tasty.
16:23:23 <Gregor> And it continues: about this you guys, a language engine with a bunch of parsers that dump out XML ASTs, then everything else implemented as XSL! You could even have XSL reversers that convert low-level ASTs into C!
16:24:21 <cpressey> Gregor: I was totally gonna write that
16:24:27 <Gregor> You would have an XSL file that turns classes into structs and calls, and an XSL file that turns structs into pointers and offsets, and an XSL file that turns this XML AST with pointers and offsets into assembly!
16:24:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Too much crack man.
16:24:47 <cpressey> Gregor: Uh - where did you find this?
16:26:36 <cpressey> Take out all the XSL stuff, and introduce XML only as a stopgap measure (it's an expedient interchange format that can hold ASTs, *only*), and I was totally gonna write that. Like Batchelder's 'cog' but with EBNF.
16:27:09 <cpressey> Meanwhile pikhq has grapheme-bombed my IRC client. Nice.
16:27:35 <cpressey> It looked OK, until the screen scrolled. Then, barf all over.
16:28:30 <pikhq> Hooray, poor Unicode parsing.
16:28:35 <AnMaster> <cpressey> AnMaster: I find it is a bit less painful. It's easier to get the end result consistent and correct. <-- yes, but making the xsl in the first place, or just modifying it... tends to be painful
16:28:49 <AnMaster> I wouldn't bother with it for less than, say, 10 pages
16:28:56 <cpressey> AnMaster: Granted. XSL is pain.
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16:39:34 <cpressey> pikhq: http://imagebin.org/106249
16:40:28 <ais523> is there a difference between XSL and XSLT?
16:40:49 <cpressey> ais523: Technically yes, but I can never remember what it is.
16:42:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Victory!
16:42:53 <pikhq> Also, your font for Japanese is shit incarnate.
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16:50:18 <AnMaster> I'm happy my irc client doesn't do that :P
16:50:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, "shit incarnate" <-- shouldn't d be appended at the end?
16:51:17 <cpressey> That's because English is inconsistency incarnate.
16:51:58 <AnMaster> what does incarnated mean then? my spell checking seems to accept both with and without the last letter
16:52:19 <cpressey> "Incarnate" is both adjective and verb.
16:52:40 <AnMaster> ah right. incarnated would be past tense of the verb
16:53:02 <pikhq> Also, the set phrase is "x incarnate".
16:53:07 <AnMaster> but yes it is inconsistent. A favourite example of mine is that inflammable ought to mean not flammable...
16:53:08 <cpressey> Yes, but since it means just about the same thing as the adjective, no one uses it.
16:54:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure it sure. It is capable of being inflammed.
16:54:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, my client rendered that stuff on line line. Font dejavu sans mono at 9pt. Which doesn't really look good for such stuff. Not at 96 DPI or whatever this is anyway.
16:54:45 <AnMaster> no clue how that typo happened
16:55:58 <AnMaster> it works well for the languages I can actually speak though ;P
16:56:31 <pikhq> DejaVu doesn't have Japanese characters in it.
16:57:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm so system is using some other font then
16:57:31 <AnMaster> explains why those symbols look blurry
16:57:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, that ！looks like wide-char ! ?
16:57:58 <pikhq> Yeah, most Japanese fonts are pain and agony on a screen.
16:58:04 <pikhq> It is wide-char !.
16:58:04 <AnMaster> argh what happened with spacing there
16:58:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, strangely copy-and-paste renders it differently
16:58:36 <AnMaster> it looked kind of bold in your original line
16:58:42 <AnMaster> but now it looks like a normal !
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16:58:55 <pikhq> Ｄｏｎ’ｔ ｙｏｕ ｌｏｖｅ ｗｉｄｅ ｃｈａｒａｃｔｅｒｓ？
16:59:22 <AnMaster> besides they render strangely here.
16:59:36 <pikhq> ｱﾊﾞｳｯﾄ ｱｽﾞ ｳｨｰﾙﾄﾞ ｱｽﾞ ｽｨﾝ ｶﾀｶﾅ｡
16:59:45 <pikhq> (about as weird as thin katakana)
17:00:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: If you had a better font it'd render less weirdly. Here, the wide Latin glyphs render as Verdana with bizarre spacing.
17:00:49 <AnMaster> I have no clue what it renders as
17:00:58 <pikhq> (I use the Meiryo font for Japanese, and that uses Verdana's glyphs for Latin.)
17:01:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, you use non-monospace on irc? *shudder*
17:01:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it's monospace on IRC.
17:02:03 <pikhq> When stuck into Meiryo it is.
17:02:15 <pikhq> Japanese fonts are inherently monospace.
17:03:01 <pikhq> Well, more like bispace. They have a distinction between "half-width" and "full-width" characters.
17:03:32 <pikhq> Normal Latin text is half-width, the half-width katakana are half-width, everything else if full-width.
17:03:40 <myndzi\> umop what about upside down wide characters?
17:03:47 <myndzi\> ¿ѕɹəʇɔɐɹɐɥɔ əｐɪʍ ｕʍоｐ əｐɪѕｄｎ ʇｎоｑɐ ʇɐɥʍ
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17:03:56 <myndzi> some of them, at least
17:04:10 <myndzi> also yeah, they aren't so much "wide" as they are monospaced
17:04:23 <myndzi> so i guess if you were ircing with Arial they'd look wide
17:04:30 <myndzi> but they are the same width as anything else to me, or most people
17:04:40 <myndzi> AnMaster: lol, not really
17:04:47 <pikhq> myndzi: On a terminal, they take up *two* characters' space.
17:04:51 <myndzi> the ones that are natural characters, reversed, like p/d
17:04:56 <AnMaster> <myndzi\> umop what about upside down wide characters?
17:04:59 <AnMaster> <myndzi\> ¿ѕɹəʇɔɐɹɐɥɔ əｐɪʍ ｕʍоｐ əｐɪѕｄｎ ʇｎоｑɐ ʇɐɥʍ
17:05:00 <myndzi> i used the mono width ones for because they didn't line up
17:05:21 <myndzi> i mean, the upside-down chars i picked from all over the tables didn't line up with the "regular" letters
17:05:27 <AnMaster> indicating that the second line contains something that breaks the normal monospacing of the font I use for irc
17:05:32 <myndzi> but the japanese mono-width ones did
17:06:15 <myndzi> yeah, my alias is called umop ;p i forgot the /
17:06:21 <ais523> myndzi: for me, the mono-widths look out of place, the upside-downs work fine
17:06:31 <AnMaster> myndzi, well they don't line up with other chars properly since otherwise those two lines I copied wouldn't be exactly as long
17:06:33 <myndzi> ais523: yeah, but i don't really care about for you ;D
17:06:41 <myndzi> it would annoy the crap out of me if they looked weird on my screen
17:06:45 <AnMaster> the ? lines up perfectly with ʍ
17:07:03 <myndzi> it's a definite problem with font linking
17:07:09 <myndzi> i have no idea what fonts it's pulling from
17:07:12 <AnMaster> well actually, it seems off by 2 pixels
17:07:14 <myndzi> same thing with my maze alias
17:07:21 <myndzi> sometimes the chars work properly and sometimes not
17:07:26 <myndzi> depending on which fonts are cached, i think
17:07:33 <AnMaster> try gucharmap, if you right click the symbol it shows witch font it fetches it from
17:07:49 <AnMaster> apt-get or whatever package manage you use
17:08:01 <myndzi> my package manager is windows ;p
17:08:02 <AnMaster> iirc it is part of gnome, so your distro probably have a package for it
17:08:13 <myndzi> i must be way out of place here haha
17:08:13 <AnMaster> myndzi, ah okay. Sucks to be you
17:08:23 <myndzi> you go ahead and tell yourself that :)
17:08:28 <AnMaster> well there are more windows users here I think
17:08:32 <myndzi> i don't lose any sleep over it
17:09:38 <cpressey> I'm using a distro of Windows called "Windows 7"
17:10:23 <cpressey> It's put together by an outfit that calls themselves "Microsoft"
17:16:52 * ais523 vaguely wonders how many software-related outfits call themselves "Microsoft"
17:16:59 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than one
17:22:37 <AnMaster> hm *ponders the effect of swapping every occurrence of the string "micro" with "macro" and vice verse*
17:22:54 <AnMaster> I guess Macrosoft Office would warn when opening files containing micros
17:23:20 <AnMaster> and you would use a macrowave oven to heat your food
17:24:56 <myndzi> makes me think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6kElOYcd8
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17:56:26 <Madk> took me 2 hours to make this esoteric language
17:56:35 <Madk> I'm not as happy with it as m-code
17:56:41 <Madk> but it's still pretty cool
17:57:33 <Madk> I think I want to call it "MathFuck", but that's kind of an unoriginal name
17:57:55 <Madk> it's BrainFuck with more powerful arithmatic, including floating points and negative numbers
17:58:20 <Madk> I forgot I wanted to add trig functions
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18:17:13 <Ilari> If you wanted (effectively) unimplementable esolang, one way to do it would be to put complex versions of all special functions found from standard special function reference.
18:20:29 <Madk> Factorial in my new awesome thing
18:20:30 <Madk> }[>(What number would you like to determine the factorial of?));
18:20:30 <Madk> >_}<[$>*<{]>>(Answer: ):))(Again? [1/0]))<;)]`
18:20:42 <Madk> about to put it on the wiki
18:20:50 <Madk> but I NEED A GOOD NAME <_<
18:21:39 <Madk> it's a lot like brainfuck
18:21:41 <coppro> (foo) seems like a string
18:21:45 <Madk> but it's got better math
18:22:21 <Madk> How about Grin?
18:23:26 <Madk> it can run brainfuck code if you replace the "+" with "}" and the "-" with "{"
18:23:31 <Madk> that's how similar it is :P
18:26:48 <cpressey> Gah, I will never figure out how to pronounce "Grin"
18:28:00 <cpressey> Madk: I'm being facetious. It's a hobby of mine.
18:30:47 <fizzie> Madk: Speaking of M-code, what's the difference between ; and H? Both are supposed to print the string; something in the newlines?
18:31:02 <Madk> HI is the same as ;
18:31:11 <Madk> H doesn't make a newline ono its own
18:31:38 <Madk> I made ; first then found a need for H.
18:31:44 <Madk> I was too lazy to take ; out.
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18:43:15 <Madk> grin is on the wiki
18:43:50 <Madk> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Grin
18:58:21 <Madk> (Calculate how many numbers of the Fibonacci sequence?));)
18:58:21 <Madk> >:)>}:)<<[{>$>>\<$>+:)<$<\>>$<\<<]
19:00:41 <coppro> do you have a compiler yet?
19:01:32 <Madk> an interpreter
19:01:43 <Madk> it's downloadable from the wiki page
19:01:46 <Madk> along with source
19:03:49 <Madk> atm I'm trying to figure out how to do a collztz sequence with it :P
19:03:59 <Madk> next I'll do a juggler sequence
19:12:23 <coppro> you'll find out someday
19:12:30 <coppro> it's a superset of BF, so it is therefore TC
19:12:59 <Madk> It's exiting the loop on the first iteration
19:13:00 <Madk> (Calculate a Collatz sequence of what number?));)>}
19:13:00 <Madk> [<$:)>\2$>\![_}}$<</>>_]<[_}}}$<*}>_]<$>\{]
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19:13:55 <Madk> can't figure out why
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19:15:27 <Madk> my 2 function doesn't work
19:15:38 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU CALL ME POO
19:15:50 <Madk> I'm taling about grin
19:16:07 <Madk> wiki-search it
19:16:45 <Madk> My collatz sequence isn't working
19:16:49 <oerjan> i'll get to that in a while, i always look through the recent changes
19:18:47 <Madk> oh, 2 works fine. It was just my stuipidity
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19:19:10 <Madk> TELL ME, OH GREAT OERJAN
19:19:25 <Madk> OH GREAT OERJAN WHY DOESN'T MY CODE WORK?
19:19:30 <Madk> (Calculate a Collatz sequence of what number?));)>}
19:19:31 <Madk> [<$:)>\2$>\![_}}$<</>>_]<[_}}}$<*}>_]<$>\{]
19:19:43 <oerjan> <ais523> ignore the OO stuff in it, though; as far as I know, nobody uses it
19:20:14 <oerjan> that's rather sad, given how much work they must have done to make OO work in an ML
19:20:15 <ais523> ooh, I've been quoted!
19:20:36 <Madk> what OO are we talking about?
19:20:37 <ais523> oerjan: not really, OO fits quite well into a functional lang
19:20:44 <ais523> you can consider an object as just a sort of closure
19:21:13 <oerjan> ais523: it's getting the typing right that's the issue
19:21:34 <oerjan> ok HackEgo is broken again
19:21:40 <ais523> hmm, the major problem would just be recursion in the typing
19:22:00 <ais523> ^def hackego ul (No output.)S
19:22:09 <cpressey> oerjan: Gregor taught it a naughty word
19:22:12 <oerjan> Madk: it tends to break occasionally for some unknown reason
19:22:20 <ais523> see, I now have a working hackego clone in Underload
19:22:28 <ais523> and it's even faster than the real hackego!
19:23:02 <ais523> I think my favourite bothack was when I rigged thutubot to pass +haskell commands to lambdabot and report the result
19:23:11 <ais523> people here were wondering htf I managed to implement Haskell in Thutu
19:23:59 <oerjan> ais523: typing with type inference _and_ OO subtyping is _hard_ (well, technically unsolvable). in fact i think ocaml does some cheating.
19:25:17 <cpressey> Belief of the day: 90% of all engineers are subhuman.
19:25:51 <cpressey> (Tomorrow's Belief of the day has been cancelled.)
19:29:09 <Madk> I think my [] parsing is broken
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19:44:37 <Gregor-P> Yeah, HackEgo is protesting against my teaching it the F-word by failing.
19:46:43 <oerjan> i'm leaning more to the theory that it is wisely protesting so that i won't kickban it.
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19:52:25 <fungot> CakeProphet: that's scheme code highlight. what's wrong with lists? ( when should i appear??? hahahaha"
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20:00:04 <Gregor-P> oerjan: Just kick it, it won't autorejoin.
20:03:13 <oerjan> Gregor-P: I WILL TRY TO REMEMBER THAT
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20:08:35 <cpressey> In every job I've had since leaving my hometown, at least 70% of the effort has been grappling with the conceptual model of the product. It is never documented and it is always, for lack of a better term, fucked.
20:09:08 <cpressey> Thank you, HackEgo. I knew you'd understand.
20:09:44 <CakeProphet> cpressey: you just never noticed the ConceptualModelManager. You have to set the Product class for it.
20:10:16 <oerjan> well to find the ConceptualModelMangager you'll need to first find the ConceptualModelManagerFactory, no?
20:13:39 <Madk> CakeProphet: Check out "Grin" on the wiki :D
20:15:28 <cpressey> "Agile" et al compound the problem by dismissing the importance of even *having* an overarching conceptual model. Any "story" which doesn't fit in a "sprint" is split up -- dissociated, disconnected, incoherent.
20:19:49 <cpressey> But what really freaks me out is how many developers don't even seem to notice.
20:21:14 <cpressey> Have they given up? Or are they somehow intellectually incapable of seeing forests -- their world consisting only of trees?
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20:24:51 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you can't see the forest of cpressey's argument for the trees?
20:29:11 <cpressey> I feel a bit under fire. I need some better ways to relax.
20:29:19 <CakeProphet> well, all the talk of stories and sprints kind of confused me.
20:29:32 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Oh, that's "agile" mumbo-jumbo.
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20:48:04 <augur> any good reads lately? :x
20:49:00 <CakeProphet> just been reading lots of philosophy. "Core Questions in Philosophy" by Elliot Sober
20:49:32 <cpressey> I been reading Also Sprach Zarathustra. Neitzsche's such a nut!
20:50:41 <CakeProphet> I haven't technically been reading it since I've been so busy, but I'm in the middle of the Difference Engine. Some "steampunk" fiction. Actually, /the/ steampunk novel.
20:52:18 <oerjan> he cannot be a real philosopher, everyone knows they're never sober
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20:55:19 <Sgeo> So, who wants to hear about Activeworlds's nutty coordinate system?
20:55:49 <CakeProphet> I've never quite understood the purpose of a coordinate system in a text-based world.
20:56:03 <Sgeo> Activeworlds is not a text-based world.
20:56:50 <Sgeo> But here goes. X, Y, and Z. X is West/East, Y is up/down, Z is North/South
20:57:10 <Sgeo> But positive X is west, negative X is east
20:57:18 <Sgeo> Which is a nuisance, but it gets worse.
20:58:12 <Sgeo> Rotation is in terms of tenths of degree. 0 is NORTH (Z) and goes counterclockwise, which would make sense if X behaved normally, but...
20:58:34 <Sgeo> Um, that's pretty much it
20:58:59 <cpressey> There is a shmoo at (0, 0.00001, 3.6172E19)!
20:59:00 <Madk> why must the juggler sequence round down
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21:00:48 <oerjan> well balls cannot fall up, can they.
21:01:31 <oerjan> now if you were juggling helium balloons...
21:04:18 <oerjan> "Harry J. Smith has determined that the juggler sequence starting at a0 = 48443 reaches a maximum value at a60 with 972,463 digits, before reaching 1 at a157."
21:04:30 <oerjan> that sounds even wilder than the collatz sequence
21:04:56 <Madk> and getting a number to round down in Grin is not a particularly easy task
21:06:27 <oerjan> i'd think with those number sizes you'd need a good bignum library to get enough accuracy...
21:07:13 <Madk> My Grin interpreter does 64 bit floating points
21:07:41 <Madk> it's not infinite or anything but as long as you don't do something horrific it'll be fine
21:07:53 <oerjan> that's not going to work for that 48443 sequence, at all.
21:08:01 <Madk> probably not :P
21:09:11 <oerjan> not that you'd expect it to. even languages with big ints usually don't have big floats i think, at least by default
21:10:19 <Madk> it stll doesn't work
21:10:34 <cpressey> Big rats probably more common than big floats.
21:11:02 <cpressey> Images of a Macy's parade being overrun by giant rodents, now.
21:11:10 <oerjan> rodents of unusal size
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21:12:09 <oerjan> (yet another meme i haven't personally observed the source of)
21:13:59 <oerjan> sounds like some pirate or robinson crusoe character
21:18:07 <Madk> it rounds correctly
21:18:21 <Madk> and it does the sequence otherwise correctly
21:18:30 <Madk> but they don't work together correctly.
21:23:04 <Madk> WHY IS THE VALUE IN THE REGISTER RANDOMLY GOING TO ZERO ._.
21:23:42 <oerjan> clearly your register is leaking
21:24:30 <Madk> this makes no sense ;(
21:25:04 <Madk> somewhere between the last symbol of the rounding part and the first symbol of the not-rounding part, the register is becoming 0
21:25:24 <Madk> and both of those symbols do nothing except move the memory cell pointer
21:30:47 <oerjan> you're supposed to say "NOTHING CAN STOP ME NOW"
21:30:55 <Madk> 2.000 does not round down to 1.000
21:31:29 <Madk> something's still broken
21:34:49 <Madk> ok, the rounding works lovely now, but it's always telling me it only took 1 step
21:34:57 <Madk> hoefully that's not difficult to fix
21:35:02 <augur> simcity was (is?) based off of CAs
21:35:16 <Madk> that is interesting
21:37:27 <Madk> cellular automata
21:37:35 <augur> cmon coppro, you should know that
21:37:49 <coppro> augur: it could also mean Certificate Authority.
21:37:53 <coppro> or California. or Canada
21:41:07 <oerjan> it's a little known secret that those things are all cellular automata
21:42:03 <Madk> stupid juggler sequence
21:42:14 <Madk> oh how I despise it
21:42:21 <Madk> I've come too far to give up though
21:42:37 <oerjan> sunk costs, and all that
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21:49:02 <Madk> I should make it track the highest number reached, too, though.
21:50:08 <Madk> nah, that'd take too much work :P
21:51:07 <cpressey> pikhq: See, now that didn't render for me at all.
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21:57:54 <Madk> what should I do with Grin now?
21:58:24 <Madk> 99 bottles maybe
22:10:47 <fizzie> For some reason or another, I threw together *another* m-code interp. (It's equally incomplete as the first one, though.)
22:11:15 <fizzie> Lovingly handcrafted x86-64 asm, this time: http://git.zem.fi/misc/blob/HEAD:/m-code/interp.asm
22:11:53 <Madk> that is awesome :D
22:11:57 <coppro> although my terminal emulator can't seem to handle it correctly
22:12:24 <coppro> yeah, it's because it's KDE, which uses UTF-16 internally, and is generally broken
22:12:30 <Madk> I'll be back in just a bit
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22:13:20 <pikhq> coppro: UTF-16 is perfectly fine.
22:13:29 <pikhq> Presumably, KDE is actually using UCS-2 though.
22:13:49 <coppro> pikhq: nah, it's more that it gets confused when it uses a non-BMP character because it takes two bytes
22:14:01 <coppro> UTF-16 itself, of course, is fine
22:14:31 <pikhq> Even more borken when you consider that there is not a one-to-one mapping between glyphs and codepoints.
22:14:59 <coppro> it seems to handle that normally fine
22:15:11 <pikhq> How do people fail so much at Unicode?
22:15:53 <cpressey> In Soviet Russia, Unicode fails at YOU!
22:16:30 <coppro> I completely agree with you about it
22:16:50 <coppro> it should not be all that difficult to make it so that backspace after 𝓜 deletes the character, like in Firefox
22:17:33 <pikhq> Darnit, text should *just plain work*.
22:29:10 <Sgeo> pikhq, want to help test my game?
22:29:15 <Sgeo> I'm scared of unicode issues
22:29:31 <Sgeo> We're using a 4.x SDK for AW, but Unicode support was added in 5.0
22:30:11 <Sgeo> Accented os seem to work, but I'm not sure that it's enough. AW itself doesn't seem to support a lot of Unicode stuff, and that's out of my control
22:30:18 <Sgeo> Hm, I should try chatting though
22:32:24 <Sgeo> Pasting in weird characters fails just as badly for AW as it does for the bot
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22:48:12 <Sgeo> OMGWTF Bonobo Conspiracy updated
22:48:19 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, did you read logs?
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23:46:41 <AnMaster> oh H stands for Hurd obviously
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23:48:38 <cpressey> AnMaster: For glorious improvement, of course.
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23:53:17 * oerjan watches brains explode around him
23:57:37 <Sgeo> So, the only similarity between H and Haskell is that they're both functional?
00:01:25 <cpressey> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/367480/are-there-any-single-letter-programming-language-names-left
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00:04:04 <Sgeo> How many of those are MS languages?
00:04:11 <Sgeo> erm, the taken ones
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00:12:20 <AnMaster> it is a pity that ghc doesn't have the runtime reloading capabilities of erlang. That is why I'm not going to use haskell for this irc bouncer I'm considering writing
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00:17:21 <Sgeo> Hell, I'm using C# for a project that.. it would have been nice to have runtime reloading for
00:26:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: what about the plugins package(s)?
00:27:16 <oerjan> they allow you do load stuff, maybe not as conveniently as erlang, which i don't really know
00:32:16 <Sgeo> Stupid question, but r^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 is the equation for a sphere?
00:32:38 <oerjan> centered at (0,0,0), yes
00:33:48 * Sgeo wonders what r = x+y+z is the equation of
00:34:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm should check that out. But how to update the core on the fly?
00:34:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i expect you'll need some continuation passing style to launch the new version as a function, i vaguely thought that's what erlang did as well
00:35:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, besides this is mainly IO stuff and haskell seems slightly cumbersome for stuff that is >90% IO
00:35:52 <oerjan> i guess updating ghc itself would be impossible to do in this way, if that's what you mean by core
00:36:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, well you can't do beam either that way (the erlang VM)
00:37:11 <coppro> oerjan: how Erlang does it is that a module can exist twice in memory as 'new' and 'old' versions
00:37:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, and erlang loads a new version of the module and then makes all future calls to it point to the new one. Calls to the module from within itself point to the same version calling, so you switch by calling it with module name, not just function name.
00:37:47 <coppro> code running in the old version will continue to call the old version on normal calls, but if you qualify them with module:function, then it will use the new module
00:37:56 <coppro> calls from outside the module always go into the new one
00:37:58 <AnMaster> yeah what coppro explained better than me
00:38:04 <oerjan> coppro: well that direct-plugins package i looked at includes the package name as part of the loading, including version number, so it should be similar
00:38:25 <coppro> version numbers aren't necessary
00:38:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, however this does not help much with reloading the code that handles loading and reloading of plugins
00:38:52 <oerjan> well it would be in the haskell version
00:39:13 <AnMaster> well I would probably go for OTP with erlang
00:39:26 <coppro> AnMaster: that can usually be done too, can't it?
00:39:43 <oerjan> but then i expect erlang has had years to perfect this, it's _the_ language that's known for supporting it after all
00:39:48 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/1054576
00:39:52 <Sgeo> I haven't gone insane, have I?
00:39:56 <coppro> AnMaster: reloading the plugin-reloading code in Erlang
00:40:03 <AnMaster> coppro, yes but I meant in haskell
00:40:13 <Ilari> No surprise that erlang supports runtime reloading of code, considering what enviroments it was designed to operate in...
00:40:13 <Sgeo> I can take the ... unit vector, is that the right term ... of a vector without square rooting?
00:40:20 <coppro> Ilari: yeah, it's awesome
00:40:29 <coppro> you can even reload the VM piece by piece
00:40:36 <coppro> (if doing multiple nodes)
00:40:41 <AnMaster> Sgeo, yes you have gone insane. It is insane to not use LaTeX to format that. the ASCII notation is completely unreadable
00:41:57 <AnMaster> coppro, well what if the version change changes the distribution protocol? Though of course erlang does support using ancient versions of that protocol still
00:42:50 <Sgeo> oerjan, to make a unit vector out of a vector, I just need to divide all the parts by r^2?
00:42:53 <coppro> AnMaster: the VM should have a system by which to switch protocols ad-hoc! (I don't know if it does. I would not be entirely surprised)
00:43:07 <oerjan> Sgeo: that last line of yours is not a vector
00:43:21 <AnMaster> coppro, I'm not sure either. But iirc it needs to use the same version against all other nodes
00:43:31 * Sgeo has no clue of proper notation right now
00:43:42 <oerjan> it's still the same sphere
00:43:48 <coppro> AnMaster: well, once every node is upgraded, they could probably synchronize a protocol upgrade
00:44:10 <AnMaster> coppro, I don't know how that would be done though
00:44:29 <AnMaster> coppro, though the protocol doesn't change very often so not such a large issue really
00:44:38 <oerjan> Sgeo: a vector is like (x,y,z)
00:44:56 <AnMaster> think it changed last time two major releases ago, and considering those happens like every other year at most...
00:44:59 <Sgeo> Well, the new vector would be (x_0^2/r_0^2 etc
00:45:17 <oerjan> and if r^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2, the corresponding unit vector is (x/r, y/r, z/r), _not_ /r^2
00:46:25 <AnMaster> wow checking release notes of the R14A erlang alpha version I see they mention speed up of the profiler in the range of 6 to 84 times
00:46:53 <Sgeo> oerjan, why wouldn't x^2/r^2 work?
00:47:43 <Sgeo> Oh, because that's the squared term for the new x
00:47:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: for one thing, with (x^2/r^2, y^2/r^2, z^2/r^2) you have a vector proportional to (x^2, y^2, z^2), _not_ to (x,y,z)
00:48:27 <oerjan> although it's not even the unit vector of _that_
00:49:07 <oerjan> it's not necessarily a unit vector at all, since it's length is sqrt(x^4 + y^4 + z^4)/r^2
00:49:56 <Ilari> Does Erlang multi-VM connections still need global shared secrets?
00:49:59 <Sgeo> The reason I'm apprehensive about square roots is because I'm dealing with ints
00:50:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: the unit vector of an int vector is not necessarily an int vector, or even rational
00:51:10 <Ilari> Just consider unit vector of (2,0,1).
00:51:38 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Does Erlang multi-VM connections still need global shared secrets? <-- iirc there are other ways, but that is still the default
00:51:49 <AnMaster> I think there is some support for ssl even
00:52:08 <AnMaster> probably going to need some work setting that up
00:52:25 <AnMaster> besides the default way makes most sense on a trusted network like can be found in typical clusters
00:52:30 <Ilari> Some multi-VM systems use only local secrets and pairwise shared secrets.
00:52:56 <Ilari> (and the pairwise shared secrets are autonegotiated).
00:53:25 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes but imagine you have lots of nodes, Since erlang networks tend to be complete graphs (though they don't need to iirc) that would mean a lot of secrets to generate
00:53:36 <AnMaster> for something like 100 nodes or whatever
00:54:25 <Ilari> N local secrets total to generate, each node needing to negotiate N shared secrets.
00:55:17 <AnMaster> Ilari, anyway having one global shared secret is not much of an issue for the typical use case of erlang really
00:55:29 <Ilari> Yeah, for typical case it isn't.
00:55:29 <AnMaster> and there is always that ssl option if you don't trust stuff
00:56:20 <Ilari> One could store shared secret sufficient to secure communications in 96 bytes (2*32 byte keys, 2*16 byte IVs).
00:57:10 <AnMaster> Ilari, by default erlang only uses it for auth though, not for encryption of the actual data. Again due to the typical use case. And if you need more than that you still have that ssl option
00:57:20 <AnMaster> which ought to be a lot better than rolling your own
00:57:28 <AnMaster> since getting cryptos right is hard
00:57:34 <Ilari> I think one could do with even less memory if one wanted to (such as 1x32 byte key, 1x12 byte IV for total of 44 bytes).
00:59:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, 12 bytes would end up being padded on most systems
00:59:26 <AnMaster> either that or being rather slow
00:59:45 <Ilari> More specifically, the key exchange is hard. If you have shared secret, just derive session keys and initial IVs and use AES256-GCM.
01:00:14 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about side channel attacks on your AES256 implementation? ;P
01:01:29 <Ilari> Presumably you got AES256 from some library (as implemeting fast AES256 isn't quite trivial).
01:02:09 <AnMaster> Ilari, ssl is still a better idea probably
01:02:32 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about MITM and your idea?
01:02:43 <Ilari> That's why the key exchange is hard.
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01:05:27 <Ilari> SSL is quite horridly complicated.
01:06:15 <Ilari> The joke is that NSA has unit for sabotaging crypto systems. They even write code implementing crypto stuff... Professional-looking code at that.
01:06:21 <AnMaster> "Added function zip:foldl/3 to iterate over zip archives." <-- heh nice
01:07:28 <AnMaster> not sure how a left fold and a right fold over a zip would work though
01:08:53 <Ilari> SSL(TLS) really gets complicated when X509 is included in.
01:09:20 <Ilari> The standard cert spec used with TLS.
01:10:34 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder how many systems in world use TLS connections that do not involve X509 certificates. They are probably exceedingly rare (but I happen to have one).
01:11:01 <AnMaster> Ilari, I didn't know you could skip certs
01:11:17 <AnMaster> Ilari, anyway, what system is that?
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01:13:16 <Ilari> Version of git:// extended to support TLS (using custom remote helper and custom daemon).
01:13:45 <AnMaster> Ilari, how does it do auth without X509
01:15:10 <Ilari> Supported authentications: Server: OpenPGP certs (bit SSH-style), Client: Anonymous, Unix user authentication, SRP, OpenPGP certs or SSH keypairs.
01:15:42 <AnMaster> Ilari, also why not just tunnel git over ssh :P
01:15:44 <Ilari> Form of username/password authentication.
01:16:05 <AnMaster> ssh seems a lot less complicated than ssl
01:16:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: Well, that's the standard way.
01:16:33 <AnMaster> yes, bzr is usually tunneled over ssh too for example
01:16:40 <AnMaster> hg tends to go over https iirc
01:19:18 <wareya> My dad said that haskell was the newbie's functional programming language.
01:19:21 <wareya> Should I agree with this?
01:19:32 <Ilari> The extended protocol is indeed true superset, I have seen the normal Git internal git:// client get successful connection and grab stuff.
01:19:37 <AnMaster> wareya, what one does he suggest instead?
01:20:02 <AnMaster> though I would suggest something like scheme fits that description better
01:20:56 <Ilari> Yes, it uses TLS but can use ssh keypairs for authentication.
01:21:20 <Ilari> (and that is the standard mode when I use it between machines, within the same machine, I use unix user auth).
01:22:22 <AnMaster> does haskell have call/cc btw?
01:22:26 <wareya> He suggested common lisp
01:22:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: in a monad :D
01:22:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, well obviously it breaks the pure functional semantics yes.
01:23:52 <oerjan> specifically callCC is a method of the MonadCont class, which includes the Cont and ContT m monads
01:24:07 <oerjan> the latter being a transformer
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01:26:43 <oerjan> so you can use ContT IO to get continuations/callCC combined with IO
01:26:51 <AnMaster> coppro, last erlang beta release (R14A) dropped support for the distribution protocol used in R11B and older. Or at least parts of that protocol. R11B was before I learned Erlang. Probably around the time it went open source, which was several years ago.
01:28:51 <pikhq> That has got to have somewhat odd effects on side effects.
01:28:59 <oerjan> it should be ContT r IO where r is the type returned by the final continuation
01:29:39 <oerjan> pikhq: not really, it's more or less like in scheme, they're not undone just because you jump around
01:29:43 <AnMaster> okay wtf "OTP-8686 A bug introduced in kernel-2.13.5.3 has been fixed." <-- complete changelog writing fail
01:30:14 <pikhq> oerjan: So, it works just exactly how you'd expect.
01:30:18 <coppro> kernel isn't even part of OTP, is it?
01:30:23 <pikhq> Which is itself very mind-bending.
01:30:33 <AnMaster> coppro, well OTP-nnnn is some bug tracker number
01:30:53 <AnMaster> coppro, all entries in the changelog have one of them
01:31:02 <oerjan> pikhq: now if you could have an IOT transformer and use IOT (Cont r), then that would really have worked that way, i think. Except IOT is impossible afaik
01:31:08 <AnMaster> I mean, usually they are all very detailed
01:31:19 <oerjan> (that way = undoing side effects)
01:31:23 <pikhq> oerjan: IOT? IOT?!?
01:32:00 <oerjan> pikhq: purely hypothetical monad transformer that adds IO _inside_ pure code, it would be.
01:32:15 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Which is itself very mind-bending. <-- you mean call/cc in general? I agree completely then
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01:33:13 <oerjan> pikhq: to see _some_ of that effect, compare StateT s (Cont r) with ContT r (State s)
01:33:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, call/cc that isn't returned from the call/cc is quite easy to understand though. After all it is quite similar to the C setjmp/longjmp stuff then
01:33:38 <AnMaster> returning the continuation: argh
01:33:47 <oerjan> in the former, jumping _would_ undo state changes, in the latter it wouldn't. iirc.
01:34:04 <pikhq> oerjan: AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGH
01:34:52 <pikhq> oerjan: It's *time travel*! It's actual, literal, time travel!
01:35:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, would that actually work?
01:35:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: i _think_ so, it's been a while
01:35:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, just add the IO monad there and you could kill your own grandfather then?
01:36:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: If you could do an IOT, then yes.
01:36:32 <pikhq> IOT *must* be impossible. It requires the ability to time travel.
01:37:51 <oerjan> pikhq: as well as many-worlds, if you use it over [] :D
01:38:42 <AnMaster> hm I don't see how many-worlds follow from that but then this is doing my head in anyway so I might as well just not try to figure it out
01:39:23 <pikhq> Actually. Wouldn't you need a ListT monad?
01:39:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: lists act as the do-several-things-at-once monad. IOT [] would consists of lists of IO actions that were all simultaneously applied in separate environments
01:40:09 <pikhq> No, no, you wouldn't.
01:40:42 <oerjan> well there is a ListT monad somewhere, i don't quite recall if it _was_ a true monad or not, there was at least something fishy with the initial implementation
01:41:19 <oerjan> (it's not afair included in the default libraries)
01:41:46 <pikhq> *Befunge 98 interpreter in Haskell could use this*.
01:43:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: nondeterminism/several-things-at-once of actions in an underlying monad. the transformer version of []
01:43:19 * pikhq still is wincing from the freaking *time travel* monad
01:43:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, use it to implement TRDS
01:43:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Precisely.
01:44:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, I wonder why you are not in #microcosm btw
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01:49:10 <CakeProphet> instance MonadIO STM where liftIO = return.unsafePerformIO
01:55:54 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gregor-Richards/133966549972228 Hey guys I decided I'm all pretentious now :P
01:57:11 <oerjan> alien fashion sense, it all fits
02:01:11 <pikhq> http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/ Jet powered car.
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02:08:31 <Madk> check out my Grid
02:08:41 <Madk> search the esolang wiki
02:08:45 <Madk> I made it better
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02:10:37 <Sgeo> Time travel monad?
02:11:08 <Sgeo> Also, what's evil about what CakeProphet did?
02:12:05 <oerjan> Madk: did you mean to delete the M-code hello world? we seem to have edited simultaneously
02:12:28 <Madk> I moved it again
02:12:31 <Madk> to the end of the Ms
02:13:14 <oerjan> Madk: the - should not count for the ordering, dammit :D
02:13:27 <oerjan> that's why i moved it first
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02:13:42 <Madk> It should count
02:17:09 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Street legal. <-- ... how?
02:17:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Somehow.
02:18:12 <AnMaster> "That doesn't stop me from the occasional blast on the highway though." <-- that can't be legal
02:18:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: It is not *il*legal.
02:18:38 <oerjan> Sgeo: it violates the entire spirit of the STM monad, which is to disallow any side effects that are not controlled by the software transactions. and it even does so in a particularly unsafe way, since the IO action might _never_ be performed if the value isn't looked at.
02:19:18 * Sgeo was misreading it as ST
02:20:31 <oerjan> functions like that should at least contain unsafe in the name (and ST has one which does)
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02:27:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, hahaha: "Jet keeps sucking the rose out of the bud vase on the dash!"
02:30:00 <AnMaster> "Hmmm, the car has two engines making the car a hybrid so maybe we can drive in the commuter lanes along with the Toyota Priuses." XD
02:31:14 * Sgeo compares electric cars to cloud computing
02:31:42 <AnMaster> Sgeo, but electric cars aren't bullshit
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02:32:47 <Sgeo> It's more of an issue that power companies aren't being asked to store sensitive data
02:33:01 <Sgeo> That's the thing that annoys me about cloud computing
02:33:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh my... that guy is thinking about putting jet engines on a scooter too. That's just insane and a lot more unsafe than on a car
02:34:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, well.
02:35:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, besides actually using the jet engine outside car shows and such seems extremely dangerous to cars behind you
02:36:44 <Sgeo> So, my dad won't let me give an unused phone to a friend :(
02:36:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Almost certainly.
02:36:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: How old are you again?
02:37:18 <pikhq> ... And you need to give any credence to what your dad says... Why?
02:38:16 <Gregor> I've been not giving any credence to what my dad says since I was 15 :P
02:38:42 <coppro> that sounds about right
02:39:06 <coppro> <Gregor>I've been not giving any credence to what my dad says since I was 15 :P
02:40:39 <Sgeo> pikhq, because he gives me money for everything
02:40:53 <Sgeo> Including college
02:40:59 <Sgeo> And pays for food, etc.
02:41:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Might I suggest a job? Your dad is fucking nuts.
02:42:07 <Sgeo> That might interfere with school
02:42:15 <Sgeo> And dad might pull college funding
02:42:25 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your dad is fucking nuts.
02:42:41 <coppro> also your education system is fucking nuts
02:42:56 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, it is completely and utterly nuts.
02:43:24 <coppro> At least I know that if my parents pulled school funding, I wouldn't be forced to drop out
02:43:52 <pikhq> coppro: And how much do they need to pay?
02:45:21 <coppro> pikhq: Uh, depends how much I earn in the meantime. I expect that I could leave them with paying a net of 0, not counting the education funds that are set aside. I'll need a lot of help for the first year, and after that it's based on the quality of job I get.
02:45:36 <AnMaster> coppro, school funding? That's the state
02:45:51 <pikhq> coppro: Sorry, how much *need be paid*.
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02:46:03 <coppro> probably on the order of $80k
02:46:25 <pikhq> ... That's rather a lot.
02:46:34 <coppro> I'm on the upper edge of payment at my school though
02:46:42 <coppro> and that's including living expenses, etc.
02:46:46 <AnMaster> coppro, which country are you in
02:47:04 <AnMaster> ah living expenses and text books are not included in the 0 SEK cost for me at university.
02:47:13 <coppro> yeah, you Europeans have it nice
02:47:14 <AnMaster> text books are only included up to high school iirc
02:47:19 <coppro> although I'm in an expensive program
02:47:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... *0*?
02:47:25 <coppro> there are programs that are significantly cheaper
02:47:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, well as I said, living costs and text books still cost
02:47:45 <pikhq> WHY THE HELL AM I NOT IN EUROPE
02:47:52 <coppro> also, my parents are rich
02:47:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, because you can't be in two places at once
02:47:56 <coppro> if they weren't the government would pay
02:48:18 <AnMaster> hm that is an interesting system
02:48:29 <coppro> it's actually pretty bad
02:48:37 <coppro> since it's based on parental income
02:48:45 <AnMaster> yes that doesn't make much sense
02:48:49 <coppro> and parental income does not always translate to funds available for students
02:48:51 <AnMaster> should be based on your own incom
02:49:35 <pikhq> coppro: Better than US's setup.
02:49:44 <coppro> and of course there's student loans... woohoo
02:50:04 <pikhq> Whereby the government doesn't pay until your family's poor enough to barely be able to afford *food*.
02:50:04 <AnMaster> coppro, there are those here. Meant for text books and living costs
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03:36:17 <HackEgo> Gregor's first child now has a little brother or sister! Aren't they so cute together?
03:36:24 <Gregor> Hm, wonder what went wrong before.
03:37:50 <pikhq> Clearly, HackEgo disapproved of cursing, and has now grown up.
03:40:30 <HackEgo> 166|<oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
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04:00:36 <AnMaster> <HackEgo> Gregor's first child now has a little brother or sister! Aren't they so cute together? <-- how did that happen
04:00:52 <AnMaster> you are like way too young for that
04:01:23 <AnMaster> should wait until you are 35 at least, that way you have a lot more money and also get a lot more time without children
04:02:20 <Gregor> AnMaster: HackEgo rewards you with a child every time you say the F-word :P
04:02:51 <Gregor> Prooooooobably not having real children any time soon :P
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04:50:56 <HackEgo> Congratulations! AnMaster's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
04:52:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, so from now on I'll always use damn
04:52:18 <AnMaster> Gregor, also what if I'm quoting something
04:52:33 <Gregor> The real problem is when you're talking about a certain programming language :P
04:52:41 <Gregor> A certain, enormously topical programming language.
04:52:44 <AnMaster> Gregor, it does it inside a word?
04:52:50 <AnMaster> Gregor, okay just disable it then
04:53:14 <AnMaster> Gregor, which one do you mean btw
04:54:32 <Gregor> OK, I'm disabling it because it keeps breaking things :P
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05:00:25 <AnMaster> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
05:00:37 <AnMaster> google image search preview pages gone web 2.0
05:00:48 <AnMaster> http://preview.tinyurl.com/3xbmmtr
05:00:55 <AnMaster> (because url is longer than one IRC line)
05:02:28 <Gregor> Almost as against all that Google stood for as the rest of Google.
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05:06:02 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster, and they still use cookies with that long url?
05:07:47 <Gregor> Somebody know of or want to write a generic card game server? That is, one that enforces no rules, just lets you take cards and treat them in usual card-like ways (make stack, put them face-up or face-down, etc)
05:11:01 <pikhq> Gregor: Mindless Automaton is close.
05:11:53 <pikhq> Its set of actions is set up around Magic. However, it enforces 0 rules, and the set of actions is kinda generic because of that.
05:11:53 <Gregor> Hmmm ... AFAICT the only thing it lacks is a standard deck?
05:12:18 <pikhq> I think it also enforces Magic *card types*, but that's not a big deal; it'll let you stick in typeless cards.
05:12:22 <pikhq> http://mindless.sourceforge.net/
05:12:33 <Gregor> I just wonder how much work it would be to make it use generic cards.
05:13:40 <pikhq> Depends on how complex those cards are.
05:14:19 <Gregor> I'm talking about playing cards.
05:14:25 <Gregor> Like, A, 1-10, J, Q, K
05:14:56 <Gregor> Maybe toss a Joker in there if I'm feeling frisky.
05:15:00 <Gregor> Also take out the 1 :P
05:15:07 <pikhq> Okay, the major problem you have there is that Mindless Automaton assumes two decks.
05:15:46 <Gregor> I assume two decks ... shuffled together.
05:16:01 <Gregor> Hydra is played with each player having their own draw pile.
05:16:07 <pikhq> ... No, in Magic the Gathering each player has a deck.
05:16:44 <pikhq> Basically, Mindless Automaton could probably be made to work for any *trading* card game.
05:17:34 <Gregor> I want something like that, but with even LESS rules.
05:17:58 <pikhq> The problem being that MA is set up around Magic. Which has lots and looots of bookkeeping. :P
05:21:08 <Gregor> So, feel like writing a generic card game server? :P
05:21:41 <pikhq> I have too much to not do already!
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05:22:03 <Gregor> How about you, random newcomer? Want to write a generic card game server? :P
05:22:15 <sanxiyn> What is a generic card game server?
05:23:26 <Gregor> A server (and client) that would handle the basics of cards (decks, hands, piles, etc), but wouldn't enforce any rules, allowing you and your mates to play any card game (so long as you all knew the rules and stuck to them)
05:23:41 <sanxiyn> Gregor: Do you know about Zillions of Games?
05:24:03 <coppro> also, limiting to cards is bad
05:24:11 <pikhq> And does not ship with source code and a usage license.
05:24:30 <sanxiyn> Well, I was just trying to ask whether it is a similar concept.
05:24:38 <coppro> *note: the two things are not related)
05:24:48 <Gregor> I haven't used it, but it seems to be a similar concept.
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05:25:06 <coppro> if you're going to cards, you might as well cover all games
05:25:21 <Gregor> coppro: One step at a time there pooppy.
05:25:35 <coppro> thanks for the confidence
05:25:45 <Gregor> coppro: I mean unless you want to write it.
05:25:45 <sanxiyn> I always liked http://www.pagat.com/
05:25:46 <pikhq> And if you're going to all games you might as well cover all games, as defined in game theory.
05:25:47 <Gregor> In which case GO GO GO
05:26:11 <sanxiyn> So to see whether it is general enough, one could try to play games randomly chosen from the list there.
05:26:14 <pikhq> (fortunately, this omits the Game of Life)
05:26:52 <sanxiyn> pikhq: Combinatorial game theory
05:27:43 <sanxiyn> But (say) {{|}|{|}} is not very playable for humans, so one would need visualization
05:28:09 <Gregor> This conversation does not end with me having a generic card game server :P
05:29:59 <sanxiyn> One idea would be putting network layer to PySolFC or so.
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05:49:31 <lifthrasiir> sanxiyn, AnMaster quoted this url from google image search preview: http://preview.tinyurl.com/3xbmmtr
05:49:38 <AnMaster> <coppro> also, limiting to cards is bad <-- XD
05:49:58 <AnMaster> sanxiyn, it turned out to be longer than one irc line
05:50:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, but yes I'm fairly certain it use cookies because I checked that url was the same when I was logged in to my google/gmail account and when I weren't. Because I got suspicious about the url and didn't want anyone to steal anything
05:51:13 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, however, looking at it, it contains page the image came from, image url and back-url
05:51:22 <Gregor> I wonder what information they've got in there :P
05:51:43 <Gregor> Name, address, sex, age, education, sexual orientation, ... :P
05:51:46 <AnMaster> Gregor, well, some I told you about
05:51:53 <AnMaster> but the rest I have no idea about
05:51:54 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster, i once thought that some privacy information was encoded into the url
05:52:16 <AnMaster> the image search url is fairly long too
05:52:23 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/images?q=LTE%205150&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1519&bih=538
05:52:32 <AnMaster> contains something about me using firefox I see
05:52:49 <AnMaster> and um. it is basically url encoded inside that url
05:55:31 <AnMaster> bbl going to watch dvd. For like the first time ever on this computer which I had since 2004 or such
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08:08:58 <CakeProphet> ...did we invent the term esoteric programming language?
08:09:09 <CakeProphet> "we' == whoever first made the esolang community
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08:20:11 <cheater99> pertaining to matters of IMPORTANCE
08:20:20 <cheater99> suppose you add a girl on facebook
08:20:35 <cheater99> and you start chatting and she suddenly starts talking dirty
08:20:50 <cheater99> but at the same time it turns out she thinks she's talking to someone else with the same first name
08:21:05 <cheater99> 1. tell her of the error of her ways
08:21:28 <cheater99> 2. continue, save log, save her photos, and tell her later, then post it to all her friends
08:21:46 <cheater99> 3. continue, save log, save her photos, never tell her, and post it to an internet chat room
08:22:18 <Axtens> Given how much people seem to love litigation these days, I'd go for #1
08:23:42 <Axtens> I'd still go for #1. Trust is hard to come by and once lost is exceptionally hard to regain. Just let her know that you know and leave it at that.
08:24:02 <cheater99> been talking to me for two days now or so
08:26:34 <Axtens> Okay, so I'm unusual in that I'm in to acting honourably. I'd have told her long before now. But you're now in a position where an apology includes a huge loss of face.
08:27:12 <cheater99> she started talking about that stuff unprompted
08:27:25 <Axtens> I suppose you could introduce into the conversation topics that she knows the other guy wouldn't know anything about and wait for her to go, "hey, hang on, you're not whatsisname, are you?"
08:27:28 <cheater99> i only figured out she must be mistaking me later on
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10:11:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ooh, nifty: http://fcam.garage.maemo.org/fcamera.html
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10:20:04 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: haven't tried it, the user interface and such might suck majorly.)
10:21:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, I assume you are going to try it?
10:22:50 <fizzie> Yes, though I'm not sure I'm going to start using it for random snapshot-style photogrammery. I wonder if they've added some trick to make it start that FCam instead of the usual "Camera" app when the lens cover is opened.
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10:33:45 <fizzie> Well, it seems reasonably nice and usable, if a tad on the simple side. Still, manual controls are nice, as is raw shooting.
10:33:52 <fizzie> It seems to take 11-megabyte images.
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10:37:31 <fizzie> ... and dcraw decodes it as a 640x480 image that's mostly just bright red and black ...
10:38:41 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/test.png -- I would not exactly call that "working".
10:42:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does ufraw make out of it?
10:43:18 <fizzie> "The program 'ufraw' is currently not installed. To run 'ufraw' please ask your administrator to install the package 'ufraw'"
10:43:29 <fizzie> Will have to see when I get home.
10:44:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, ufraw uses dcraw though so hm...
10:44:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, do they have an irc channel or something where you can ask about this?
10:45:38 <fizzie> There's a forum; I'll see if other raw-decoding tools work on the .dng file first.
10:47:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, 12 seems somewhat on the large side since that is just below what my 8 MP camera gives me
10:47:30 <AnMaster> they are like 13 MB unless I misremember
10:47:40 <fizzie> It should be a 5-or-so megapixel sensor.
10:48:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, so unless that gives you more than 12 bits per channel the image file seems exceedingly large
10:48:41 <fizzie> Well, it could be a very unoptimal format.
10:49:02 <fizzie> Running "gimp test.dng" directly on the file opened a correct-looking image, but it's just 640x480; I think that's a preview image included in the file. DNG is TIFF-based, "file test.dng" says "TIFF image data, little-endian".
10:49:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes selecting tiff on my camera gives larger images than *.mrw. And only 8 bits per channel
10:49:49 <AnMaster> in fact .mrw always tend to be smaller than tiff
10:50:03 <AnMaster> even when converted on computer and using deflate
10:58:45 <fizzie> Heh; ImageMagick supposedly supports .dng files; so, I try "identify test.dng":
10:58:46 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ identify test.dng
10:58:46 <fizzie> sh: ufraw-batch: not found
10:58:46 <fizzie> identify: Delegate failed `"ufraw-batch" --silent --wb=camera --black-point=auto --exposure=auto --create-id=also --out-type=ppm --out-depth=16 "--output=%u.pnm" "%i"' @ delegate.c/InvokeDelegate/1015.
10:58:46 <fizzie> identify: unable to open image `/tmp/magick-XXdaOBkS.pnm': No such file or directory @ blob.c/OpenBlob/2439.
11:01:25 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/identify: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
11:01:30 <AnMaster> not a shell script as I had expected
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11:02:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, ufraw is a very nice tool in general though
11:02:26 <AnMaster> it is what I use to convert raw files
11:02:58 <AnMaster> gui tool with preview, you can settings. Then save the image and also optionally a file describing the settings
11:03:11 <AnMaster> then you can use that settings file for batch processing the rest
11:03:20 <AnMaster> useful when you want constant wb and such
11:03:35 <fizzie> I know; I've used it the couple of times I've done raw with the real camera.
11:03:49 <fizzie> Doesn't build here, though; they don't have enough gtk devel packages installed.
11:04:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't you use a laptop?
11:08:25 <fizzie> Well, no. Why would I?
11:08:48 <Ilari> Always fun when some program gets into odd state and you just can't see how it could get into that state... :-/
11:09:37 <Ilari> (looking at the source code).
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11:14:32 <fizzie> Even the latest dcraw.c messes the file up. I guess it's also possible that FCamera writes spec-wise bad DNG files that just happen to work in official Adobe tools.
11:16:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, to be able to install ufraw ;P
11:17:09 <fizzie> It's not exactly central to what I *should* be doing here.
11:17:30 <AnMaster> Ilari, that is when you either bisect (if you are lucky and it used to work) or do step by step debugging
11:27:26 <Ilari> I don't have working version (this was the first "working" version) and problem doesn't want to reproduce anymore. I did straces and can infer the program state out of those, but can't figure how it could have gotten into that state.
11:29:42 <Ilari> One custommade routine...
11:30:39 <AnMaster> Ilari, sure but what does it do?
11:31:52 <Ilari> Bidirectional data copy between pipe pairs.
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12:09:58 <fizzie> Hrm. I've been looking at the .dng file; it's supposed to -- according to spec and fcam sources -- have as main image the 640x480 preview, then as subimage the actual raw data. According to libtiff, the preview is okay (it even has "Subfile Type: reduced-resolution image (1 = 0x1)" set) but there is no "SubIFDs" tag set in the directory that would point to the actual raw image.
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12:10:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, considering the size it ought to be there though
12:10:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there a lot of data after the preview ends?
12:11:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I wonder how a generic raw format can even work considering there are cameras with hexagonal picture elements and so on
12:12:02 <fizzie> Actually the preview image directory is near the end of the file (at offset 0xa9c665, or 11126373 bytes into the file); it should have a tag-330 field containing a single pointer to the actual raw-image dir.
12:12:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, well there must be a raw image in between then
12:12:33 <AnMaster> try to set look for some likely offset after the header
12:12:56 <fizzie> TIFF is a messy format; there should be something pointing to it from the main directory.
12:12:57 <AnMaster> I mean, test a few after the header, like header, header + padded to some boundary and such
12:13:32 <fizzie> libtiff does complain about "Warning, test.dng: invalid TIFF directory; tags are not sorted in ascending order"; I wonder if that could make it skip some tags.
12:14:02 <fizzie> One'd think it'd be polite enough to read it even if it's not in the proper order, though.
12:14:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, um it complains about that when loading images into hugin after converting with ufraw
12:15:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess it didn't write the entry correctly. Look for some likely offset and use a hex editor to set that in the correct header
12:16:23 <AnMaster> could be messy if that header is completely missing of course
12:16:30 <fizzie> You can't really "set" anything in the header if the field for it doesn't exist; adding bytes in-between would mess all offsets.
12:17:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, overwrite the preview image field then
12:18:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, assuming length doesn't mess up that would work
12:18:44 <fizzie> Technically speaking I could perhaps alter the "first IFD" offset (which is in the header at the beginning of the file) to point at the raw-image ifd, if I could just find it.
12:19:17 <fizzie> At least for the preview image, the directory came after the image data, so presumably it's somewhere in the middle, most likely a bit before the preview-image data starts.
12:19:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, probably the raw image starts just after or just after + padding some other header of data bit that is known
12:20:35 <fizzie> First "strip" of preview image data starts at 10203626; maybe I'll look there.
12:20:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, write a short program that scans for known "must be like this" values
12:21:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, like if you know the width in pixels and there is a field for it, check all offsets until that field matches
12:21:21 <AnMaster> should be trivial to locate such values
12:21:37 <AnMaster> doesn't even need to try to figure out the offset. Just finding that value would be a good start
12:21:55 <AnMaster> then you could limit the number of possibilities down by other fields, say height
12:21:55 <fizzie> I don't really know the raw dimensions, though. There's some tag numbers that are dng-specific, those might work.
12:22:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, go for some that you know. Surely there must be some
12:23:54 <fizzie> Most of the stuff is written in the "first" IFD, the one with the preview image attached. (Which also means that dcraw might not like if I just point the first-ifd pointer directly to the raw data, since it'll be missing those fields.)
12:25:27 <fizzie> I've read the fcam sources, and they *look* like they should do the right thing. It certainly tries to add a proper subifd pointer when writing a tiff file.
12:25:45 <fizzie> Of course the N900 extras-testing version might be outdated or something.
12:25:55 <AnMaster> besides the svn is on rev 37 hah
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12:27:01 <AnMaster> hm seems to have been developed outside svn to start with
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12:28:10 <fizzie> The "look for known values" strategy is complicated by the fact that the image directory has just field tags and types, and the file-offset pointers to the values; the values themselves can be anywhere in the file, with no pointer back of course.
12:28:34 <fizzie> There should be the byte sequence "fe 00 04 00 01 00 00 00" in the directory I'm looking for; that's reasonably long.
12:28:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, why don't they inline the values
12:29:07 <fizzie> Because they want fixed-width records, and the values have very different lengths.
12:29:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, you you have gcc and such on your phone? Just check out and compile last version
12:29:55 <fizzie> I don't have the development environment in the phone.
12:30:09 <fizzie> It's a bit on the large side.
12:30:19 <AnMaster> hm doesn't the phone support memory cards?
12:30:35 <fizzie> It is possible to mangle it into a chroot, though; mooz did that.
12:30:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what fs does it use?
12:30:43 <fizzie> 009bb130 0f 00 fe 00 04 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 |................|
12:31:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, so somewhere around there then
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12:31:31 <fizzie> It's possible they inline four-bytes-or-smaller values, actually, instead of pointing at them.
12:35:13 <fizzie> mount says "ubi0:rootfs on / type ubifs" (where ubifs seems to be a jffs2 successor, meant for flash-based systems); then "/dev/mmcblk0p2 on /home type ext3" (that's ~2-3 gigabytes, for installing programs to and such) and finally "/dev/mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDocs type vfat" (for media files; it's probably vfat for compatibility easiness; that one's exported over the USB mass storage thing).
12:36:17 <fizzie> From what I hear it's possbile to repartition and reformat that stuff if you really want.
12:37:15 <fizzie> Right, tiff spec: "to save time and space the Value Offset contains the Value instead -- if and only if the Value fits into 4 bytes".
12:39:55 <fizzie> Heh. If I use TIFFSetSubDirectory(tif, 0x9bb130); to forcibly jump to where I think the raw-image ifd is, I get:
12:39:58 <fizzie> TIFFReadDirectory: Warning, test.dng: invalid TIFF directory; tags are not sorted in ascending order.
12:39:58 <fizzie> TIFFReadDirectory: Warning, test.dng: unknown field with tag 33421 (0x828d) encountered.
12:39:58 <fizzie> TIFFReadDirectory: Warning, test.dng: unknown field with tag 33422 (0x828e) encountered.
12:44:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it wasn't quite there then
12:44:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, check their bug tracker. needs login to even read it it seems
12:48:02 <fizzie> It is there, those tag numbers are what should be there and I just manually parsed it sort-of correctly. I guess TIFFPrintDirectory just borks on it or something.
12:48:38 <Sgeo> Why am I obsessed with Lua?
12:48:47 <Sgeo> I can never seem to view languages as just tools
12:50:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo, why do you always ask us questions we can't possibly know the answer to
12:50:32 <fizzie> 2592x1968 pixels; that sounds okayish.
12:51:29 <fizzie> And it's stored 16 bits per sample, though I doubt the sensor actually records that much.
12:51:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, but yeah, better try to compile last version when you get to your cross compiler. And if that doesn't help: file bug
12:52:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc *.mrw stores the 12 bits per pixels packed or something silly like that
12:52:34 <AnMaster> and not per channel as such, but per element
12:52:48 <AnMaster> since iirc it is the usual GGRB style sensor
12:53:24 <AnMaster> though *.mrw supports several models and thus iirc several different number of bits per sensor element
12:54:14 <fizzie> This has PhotometricInterpretation field that has a DNG-specific value of "Color Filter Array"; I think it's supposed to mean raw sensor data like that. There should be some later DNG-specific fields to denote the geometry and color-order.
12:54:23 <fizzie> Slow going, this manual parsing.
12:54:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, as long as it seems correct
12:56:12 <fizzie> So far so good. Next tag was "data strip offsets", and it has 164 strips; I seem to recall that tiff strips are <64k splits, and 164*64k is about 10.5 megs, which sounds reasonable.
12:57:03 <fizzie> Orientation: topleft. That's also correct and reasonable.
12:57:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, you are probably at the right place but does *.dng contain custom tags compared to normal *.tiff ?
12:57:37 <AnMaster> <fizzie> TIFFReadDirectory: Warning, test.dng: unknown field with tag 33421 (0x828d) encountered.
12:57:46 <fizzie> Yes, it does. And those are the right numbers, like I said.
12:58:18 <fizzie> Still, it doesn't quite explain the segfault: tiff readers are supposed to be clever enough to skip fields they don't understand.
12:58:51 <fizzie> Samples per pixel: "1". Well... I guess that's reasonable too. It's hard to say what number it *should* be.
12:59:13 <fizzie> Not yet, I'll decode this manually first out of curiosity.
12:59:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, and 1 seems a bit strange
13:01:18 <fizzie> I guess it depends on how you define "pixel". Taking into account the "PhotometricInterpretation" field -- which defines what the image data is -- I guess one pixel == one sensor cell, and therefore one sample per pixel.
13:03:20 <fizzie> CFARepeatPatternDim: (2, 2). I believe that means that the sensor color filter pattern repeats in units of 2x2 cells, which also sounds good. (Probably GG diagonally, and R/B in the other two corners, I think that's the usual case.)
13:04:52 <fizzie> CFAPattern: green, red, blue, green.
13:06:59 <fizzie> Er, or actually CFAPattern: 1, 0, 2, 1. This tag is from a separate "TIFF-EP" (electronic photography) standard; then there's a separate DNG tag to map those planes into red, green, blue with a default value of 0 = red, 1 = green, 2 = blue. Just in case things were about to get too simple.
13:07:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, are there more planes to map than those?
13:09:24 <fizzie> Well, um.. it maps from values in CFAPattern tag (which could theoretically go up to 255) into "plane numbers in LinearRaw space". I don't know exactly if you could have more than three in the latter, to deal with more-than-three-colors sensors.
13:09:48 <fizzie> BlackLevelRepeatDim: 2x2. I don't know what it's about exactly, but...
13:10:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe the human eye, that has 4 and in some <1% or such 5
13:11:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wonder if it could describe that "light level only" thing of the human eye
13:11:19 <AnMaster> of course the placements of the sensor elements is a lot more complex there
13:11:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, why not store the data along Hillberts space filling curve or such
13:14:02 <fizzie> Yay, all tags parsed. Final was WhiteLevel: 959, which is the "-- fully saturated encoding level for the raw sample values -- caused either by the sensor itself becoming highly non-linear in response, or by the camera's analog to digital converter clipping"
13:14:23 <fizzie> Having that be about 2^10 makes it sound like it only records 10 bits for each channel, not 12.
13:15:12 <fizzie> (Given how noisy pictures it takes, maybe that's not such a huge loss.)
13:15:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, well 12 was for my camera
13:15:41 <fizzie> 12 is common-ish; I think mine does that too.
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13:16:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, storing the values packed is a bit strange though
13:18:40 <fizzie> Ooh, yet another tiff-file incompatibility: the first-ifd dictionary starts at 0x0a9c665 (that is, an odd offset) while the spec says it must begin on a word (two bytes, in this context) boundary.
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13:19:16 <fizzie> I think I'll take a manual peek at that too to see if the subifd field in fact is there or not.
13:23:28 <fizzie> 4a 01 0d 00 01 00 00 00 30 b1 9b 00
13:23:28 <fizzie> tag 0x14a, type ifd, count 1, offset 0x9bb130
13:23:42 <fizzie> There is a subifd pointer there.
13:24:57 <fizzie> Besides, the tags are in ascending order. At least assuming those 16-bit values are unsigned and not signed.
13:26:35 <Madk> fizzie: check out Grin on the esolang wiki
13:27:16 <fizzie> dcraw is full of nice special cases
13:27:38 <fizzie> case 330: /* SubIFDs */
13:27:39 <fizzie> if (!strcmp(model,"DSLR-A100") && tiff_ifd[ifd].width == 3872) {
13:34:11 <fizzie> Also the code is pretty freaky.
13:34:17 <fizzie> if (*len * ("11124811248488"[*type < 14 ? *type:0]-'0') > 4) /* ... */
13:41:25 <fizzie> Ha! A single-character patch to dcraw and now I can extract images.
13:49:04 <Ilari> What does that DSLR-A100 with width of 3872 special case do?
13:49:48 <fizzie> load_raw = &CLASS sony_arw_load_raw;
13:49:48 <fizzie> data_offset = get4()+base;
13:50:57 <fizzie> It seems to be a camera-detection thing.
13:52:21 <fizzie> I guess I should email the dcraw guy about the problem; as closely as I can determine, what I do is more correct. (Unless what dcraw does is trying to work around some incompatibility somewhere.)
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16:45:31 <Madk> I'm working on another soteric language
16:45:50 <Slereah> Is it a language based on kittens
16:45:53 <Madk> it's got more arithmetic capabilities than anyone will ever use
16:45:57 <Slereah> With kittens as data structures
16:46:00 <Madk> and it has no arguments for any commands
16:46:13 <Madk> I just hit 64 commands :D
16:46:24 <Madk> only a few of them are useless
16:46:44 <Madk> about 3/4 of those are different math functions
16:47:00 <Madk> another half of the remainer are references to constants
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16:47:19 <Madk> nxtmoves the cell pointer to the right
16:47:19 <Madk> bckmoves the cell pointer to the left
16:47:19 <Madk> incincrement a cell's value
16:47:19 <Madk> decdecrement a cell's value
16:47:19 <Madk> zroset a cell's value to 0
16:47:19 <Madk> oneset a cell's value to 1
16:47:21 <Madk> =piset a cell's value to pi
16:47:23 <Madk> =e=set a cell's value to e
16:47:25 <Madk> fc1set a cell's value to the first Feigenbaum constant
16:47:27 <Madk> fc2set a cell's value to the second Feigenbaum constant
16:47:29 <Madk> apeset a cell's value to Apry's constant
16:47:31 <Madk> gldset a cell's value to the Golden ratio
16:47:33 <Madk> emcset a cell's value to the Euler-Mascheroni constant
16:47:35 <Madk> lplset a cell's value to the Laplace limit
16:47:39 <Madk> prbset a cell's value to the Parabolic constant
16:47:41 <Madk> mlcset a cell's value to Mill's constant
16:47:43 <Madk> [...]set a cell's value to the number specified inside
16:47:45 <Madk> outoutput the cell's value as a number
16:47:47 <Madk> inpinput the cell's value as a number
16:47:49 <Madk> prnoutput the cell as an ASCII character
16:47:51 <Madk> linoutput a newline to the console
16:47:53 <Madk> stkoutput the entire numerical contents of the stack to the console
16:47:55 <Madk> stroutput the entire contents of the stack as ASCII characters
16:47:57 <Madk> (...)output the text inside to the console
16:47:59 <Madk> pshpush the cell under the pointer's value onto the stack
16:48:01 <Madk> poppop the stack's topmost value into this cell and remove it
16:48:03 <Madk> addadd the numbers on the stack together
16:48:04 <Slereah> How can you set the cell to the value pi
16:48:05 <Madk> subsubtract the lower numbers on the stack from the topmost
16:48:09 <Madk> mulmultiply the numbers on the stack together
16:48:11 <Madk> divdivide the topmost number on the stack by the others
16:48:13 <Madk> pwrraises the topmost number to the powers of the rest of the stack
16:48:15 <Madk> maxremoves all but the greatest number from the stack
16:48:17 <Madk> minremoves all but the least number from the stack
16:48:19 <Madk> sicincrements all stack values by 1
16:48:20 <Slereah> Does it actually set it as pi or as a floating point approximation
16:48:21 <Madk> sdcdecrements all stack values by 1
16:48:23 <Madk> modcomputes all stack values modulo the value in this cell
16:48:25 <Madk> flrrounds all stack values to the lowest integer
16:48:27 <Madk> celrounds all stack values to the highest integer
16:48:29 <Madk> rndrounds all stack values to the nearest integer
16:48:31 <Madk> sintakes the sine in degrees of all stack values
16:48:33 <Madk> costakes the cosine in degrees of all stack values
16:48:35 <Madk> tantakes the tangent in degrees of all stack values
16:48:38 <AnMaster> your irc client might have that to clear it's send queue
16:48:39 <Madk> sectakes the secant in degrees of all stack values
16:48:41 <Madk> csctakes the co
16:48:49 <Madk> it uses 64-bit floating points
16:48:51 <Madk> so it gets fairly close
16:49:14 <Madk> let me check :D
16:49:24 <Madk> if I can get the interpreter to work
16:49:46 <Slereah> You can write the interpreter in Mathematica
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16:56:50 <Madk> my trig works in degrees, not radians
16:57:25 <Slereah> That's not very convenient when you have pi as a value
16:57:39 <Madk> I can make conversion commands pretty easily
16:57:59 <Madk> convert the values on the stack from degrees/radians
17:00:41 <Madk> yeah, pi+trig works fine
17:02:17 <Madk> (Hello, world!)
17:02:28 <Madk> now to do it with stacks and everything
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17:44:10 <AnMaster> Slereah, hm now you made me consider a mathematica self interpreter
17:44:32 <AnMaster> or more feasible: writing an x86 emulator in mathematica and running it under that
17:44:47 <AnMaster> getting an interpreter loop between two languages that could arguably both be considered esoteric
17:44:47 <Slereah> x86 has like thousands of commands
17:45:38 <AnMaster> Slereah, the "sane" way would be to construct a gcc backend generating mathematica code, then use that to cross compile qemu XD
17:46:17 <AnMaster> fix up gcc-bf so it generates less buggy code
17:46:31 <AnMaster> then write a brainfuck interpreter in mathematica
17:46:36 <AnMaster> then cross compile qemu to gcc-bf
17:47:29 <AnMaster> possible and even feasible in theory but completely impossible to run due to gcc-bf generating enormous and slow programs. As well as mathematica not being fast at such stuff
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17:55:25 <AnMaster> ais523, hm do you think it is/will be possible to compile qemu with gcc-bf?
17:55:49 <AnMaster> possibly making it output raw vga dump or something like that
17:56:05 <AnMaster> since obviously you don't have the normal GUI toolkits and such
17:56:21 <AnMaster> ais523, and since it is definitely feasible to write a brainfuck interpreter that ought to get us a loop
17:56:34 <AnMaster> brainfuck interpreter in mathematica*
17:56:47 <AnMaster> ais523, now you can suddenly run mathematica under mathematica
17:57:14 <ais523> that would be pointless
17:57:21 <ais523> and also probably violate mathematica's license
17:57:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes but remember which channel this is
18:01:25 <Madk> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tri
18:01:30 <Madk> interpreter link pending
18:11:05 <Madk> I just added pretty much everything that came to mind :P
18:12:29 <AnMaster> a compiler could optimise that
18:12:52 <Madk> I did it for sake of convenience when writing code
18:13:32 <AnMaster> Madk, right. Ever seen malbolge? ;P
18:13:55 <Madk> I just want my languages to have a different style to them, not brain-killing :P
18:14:03 <AnMaster> not saying it should be as bad as malbolge of course
18:14:03 <ais523> Madk: thanks for all your work improving the wiki, by the way
18:14:15 <Madk> My pleasure :)
18:14:25 <ais523> it's a joy when I go do my Esolang admin duties, and find a bunch of useful edits rather than the more common bunch of horrible spam
18:15:19 <AnMaster> Madk, hm nice, there seems to be no substract that doesn't substract all-but-the-top values on the stack from top one
18:15:43 <AnMaster> better yet, make it substract all values from the top one. So you have to add that back after
18:15:57 <Madk> "subsubtract the lower numbers on the stack from the topmost" ?
18:16:16 <AnMaster> Madk, well, it could substract the topmost from itself as well
18:16:29 <Madk> that would be painful :D
18:16:41 <AnMaster> Madk, it is unclear to me if sub leaves the lower numbers on the stack or if you get a stack with just a single value, the result
18:16:49 <Madk> a single value
18:16:59 <Madk> it's that way with all the ones that come up with one answer
18:17:20 <Madk> I'm just tiding up my interpreter to upload it
18:17:21 <AnMaster> Madk, also do you use doubles or some more exact representation, like a CAS would
18:17:34 <Madk> doubles. What exactly is a CAS?
18:17:53 <Madk> It doesn't use CAS, no
18:17:57 <AnMaster> it would give you pi or pi/2 rather than an inexact value
18:18:36 <AnMaster> tends to be possible to force them to give you an approx value if you really want it though.
18:19:32 <AnMaster> people use sec, csc and such!?
18:20:09 <Madk> You think those are obscure, wait till you see exsecant and versine
18:20:14 <AnMaster> I don't think there are keys for anything but sin, cos and tan on my calculator. And I never used anything else. cot *may* exist that menu with all commands
18:20:42 <Madk> the thing is, cotangent is just 1/tan
18:21:28 <AnMaster> Madk, I never even heard of "exsecant" before
18:22:04 <Madk> because wikipedia had an entire article dedicated to it :D
18:22:57 <AnMaster> Madk, why are you using degrees rather than radians btw? To make it more painful to use?
18:23:10 <Madk> make it easier on me
18:23:42 <Madk> I'm used to degrees and the language I'm writing my interpreters in use degrees by default
18:24:10 <Madk> Very nive for getting things done quickly
18:24:35 <Madk> But it's worth every penny
18:24:51 <pikhq> Madk: Does it come with a source code license?
18:24:56 <Madk> It's fast and powerful, but it's very good for rapid protyping, too
18:25:09 <Madk> no restrictions on usage once you buy it
18:25:16 <AnMaster> does it work for anything but 32-bit windows (and possibly 64-bit)
18:25:29 <pikhq> Then it's about significantly more expensive than it has any right to be.
18:25:38 <Madk> Windows 32 (it runs on 64), mac, and linux
18:26:09 <AnMaster> Madk, I think you misunderstood "source code license" here. What I think pikhq meant was "does it include source for itself once you buy it"
18:26:13 <fizzie> Madk: Oh, one thing I noticed earlier; the M-code wiki spec doesn't mention N at all, just the other conditional jumps (?, !, =).
18:26:14 <Madk> possibly to soon be expanded to systems using ARM processors
18:26:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Correct.
18:26:47 <Madk> anmaster: Not to the compiler
18:26:56 <Madk> not that I'm aware of, at least
18:27:06 <Madk> the thing is, most of it is written in BlitzMax itself
18:27:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Also, the right to create and distribute your own changes to it.
18:27:11 <AnMaster> jmp/trg looks like [/] from bf
18:27:22 <Madk> anmaster: that was the intention
18:27:40 * pikhq likes his free software
18:27:41 <Madk> Let me check something quick
18:30:56 <Madk> anmaster: It's modular and all the source to its modules is open. The modules are written in blitzmax itself, and some of the more basic modules import C code. I'm not entirely sure what actually goes on when you compile. But all the code is there, and I do know the IDE that comes packaged with the language is open-source.
18:34:19 <AnMaster> still I prefer completely open source
18:39:31 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh, "ufraw test.dng": Floating point exception. (It has the same bug in its built-in dcraw code.)
18:41:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah mail the dcraw author
18:41:30 <AnMaster> next ufraw version after the next dcraw version ought to include that fix then
18:42:24 <fizzie> I did send one mail already; got a vague reply back that tiff_get is supposed to behave that way; sent (a moment ago) another mail to explain how the behaviour breaks subifd reading for the count==1 case, hopefully this time it'll go better.
18:43:15 <fizzie> Oh well, at home I can easily patch my own copies.
18:43:30 <fizzie> It can't be a bug many people hit, otherwise they'd have hit it already.
18:45:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is that count btw?
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18:46:27 <Madk> what kind of program should I try and write in Grin
18:46:33 <Madk> I have th urge to try something
18:46:55 <AnMaster> Grin? Is that yet another one?
18:47:02 <Madk> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Grin
18:47:26 <Madk> I have fun with that one
18:47:49 <AnMaster> wow... that is like bf gone bloated
18:48:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's the item count for the field. Basically the problem is that the subifd pointer field uses a special field type 13, which means just a 32-bit offset in the file (it's a special type so that programs that don't know about the field name still understand that the value points to an ifd directory); and every field also has a count of items in it. So for count==1, the total length of the value is 4 bytes, and it's stored inl
18:48:01 <fizzie> ine; but dcraw lists "8 bytes" as the item-size of type 13, so it will always think the field "ValueOffset" is an offset to the data instead of the (single) value.
18:49:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, 8 byte offset in a file? You get image files large enough to need that?
18:49:55 <AnMaster> Madk, write a Grin interpreter in Grin
18:50:31 <fizzie> It's not 8 bytes, he has just put in a value >4 into the bit of code responsible for judging whether the value's inlined or an offset, so that in the count==1 case it will treat the value as an offset and seek directly to the ifd directory location (because it thinks the field value is being held there).
18:50:34 <AnMaster> Madk, why not implement Tri in Grin then?
18:50:38 <Madk> I would have already but I can't think of a good way to give it the input code :D
18:51:36 <AnMaster> and then some end of file marker
18:51:39 <Madk> it can only read 1 char or number at a time
18:51:42 <AnMaster> after which it starts the program
18:51:46 <fizzie> The author explained that since tiff_get is supposed to leave the file pointer to point at the file data, he put in a >4 size so that even for count==1 it will read it and process it as an offset, leaving the file pointer point to where the subifd directory is. The problem is that the code for handling the field expects that the file pointer is left pointing at a place where it can (consecutively) read "count" times 4-byte offsets of
18:51:47 <fizzie> idf directories. So it works when count>1 (because then the value is not inline, and tiff_get will have seeked to where the actual directory offsets are), but not for count==1, because in that case tiff_get has seeked to the ifd directory start itself.
18:51:57 <AnMaster> Madk, how do you think bf self interpreters work?
18:52:03 <Madk> AnMaster: perhaps.
18:52:12 <AnMaster> Madk, then tend to use @ to mark the end of the input bf program
18:52:27 <Madk> I'm writing one more example for Tri, then I'll do something for that
18:52:40 <Madk> Oh, and check out the sweet icon on the tri interpreter executable
18:53:04 <fizzie> Currently what it does for count==1 case is that tiff_get on the field will cause the file pointer be left at the beginning of the subifd directory, and then the code handling the field will read the first 4-byte value (which will contain the number of directory items plus type tag for the first item) and treat that as a file offset; then it tries to find a directory there.
18:53:06 <AnMaster> Madk, unlikely. I run 64-bit linux.
18:53:27 <Madk> the source is included in the download
18:53:40 <AnMaster> well I don't plan to spend $80 for that
18:53:46 <Madk> There is a free BlitzMax demo
18:53:56 <AnMaster> and I don't trust closed source in general
18:54:18 <AnMaster> sure I'm stuck with my BIOS being closed source. And various firmwares in different parts of the computer. And sadly, the nvidia driver
18:57:00 <fizzie> That dcraw guy sure tries hard to be extra clever with his code.
18:57:03 <fizzie> dcraw.c:6405: warning: array subscript is above array bounds
18:57:09 <fizzie> What it does around that line is:
18:57:27 <fizzie> double cam_xyz[4][3]; ... for (j=0; j < 12; j++) cam_xyz[0][j] = ...;
18:57:40 <fizzie> It's sort-of valid, but still.
18:59:32 <fizzie> Mm, patched ufraw seems to work just fine.
19:00:22 <fizzie> Horribly noisy image even with (I think) the lowest (ISO 100) gain setting, though. Although this one might've been the test with automatic settings, which set it to something like ISO 320 for indoor use.
19:01:17 <fizzie> Metadata extraction doesn't quite work so well. The FCam API puts a "tag-list" of all metadata it knows in a special private TIFF tag, but of course nothing can decode that, except FCam itself.
19:02:41 <fizzie> Maybe "all metadata" was a bit too much, since it seems to include just lens-related (focus, zoom, aperture; most of which are fixed constants in the N900 camera) things.
19:04:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, for my camera ufraw manages to extract stuff but forgets to byteswap the MakerNotes thingy
19:04:43 <AnMaster> which means I have to post-process the output with exiftool to copy that bit from the raw file to the tiff
19:05:09 <AnMaster> exiftool manages to do that correctly
19:05:59 <fizzie> There's some sort of MakerNotes blob written, too, but I'm not sure how decodable it is with anything. I don't think I've seen any tool capable of understanding the Panasonic DMC-FZ8's (the real camera I have) MakerNotes byte-blob yet.
19:07:45 <AnMaster> exiftool manages my camera's MakerNotes
19:08:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway presumably it was fcam that wrote it here?
19:08:10 <AnMaster> so the format of it should be easy to find
19:08:28 <fizzie> exiftool extracts a reasonable amount of data from the file, though not all of it is very useful: http://sprunge.us/UUJK
19:08:49 <fizzie> Especially the "DNG Private Data: (Binary data 765 bytes, use -b option to extract)" bit.
19:13:23 <fizzie> The colors in ufraw are also a bit wrong; I wonder why there's two Color Matrix rows in there, and whether they're very correct.
19:14:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, what exactly does the Color Matrix thing mean I often wondered
19:15:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I tend to set my camera to use AdobeRGB instead and then use that. Seems to give somewhat better results
19:16:31 <AnMaster> though sometimes that results in somewhat bland colours
19:16:44 <AnMaster> on the other hand Colour Matrix often gives too intensive colours
19:17:05 <fizzie> ufraw's color tab has just "Color matrix" and "No profile" entries for the camera side, and of course the camera doesn't have much controls.
19:17:16 <fizzie> I do have the fcam sources where it computes those color matrices, but, well.
19:19:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, any reply from the dcraw author yet?
19:19:22 <fizzie> The "Color matrix" colors are far too saturated, while "No profile" results in pretty bland colors. It could of course be either ufraw misinterpreting the numbers, or fcam computing them wrong.
19:20:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, how does it compute those? I mean, what stuff from the image does the function to compute that matrix use?
19:21:02 <fizzie> It seems that the two different ColorMatrix values are for two different reference white-balance settings; I don't know if it's supposed to interpolate between or what.
19:21:36 <fizzie> What it writes there is a 3x3 conversion matrix from CIE XYZ colorspace to raw-sensor RGB.
19:22:42 <fizzie> The DNG-writing code just bases them on the Frame::rawToRGBColorMatrix function; I don't know which class implements Frame here, so I haven't yet found where it actually comes from. :p
19:23:11 <fizzie> Hm, it comes from N900::Platform::rawToRGBColorMatrix(...), and...
19:23:31 <fizzie> And there it is just fixed numbers.
19:23:36 <fizzie> http://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/fcam/html/_n900_2_platform_8cpp_source.html
19:23:43 <fizzie> "These are quick and dirty numbers ..."
19:24:18 <fizzie> There could even be hardware-revision based differences there.
19:28:04 <fizzie> I guess it should be possible to build a color profile for the camera with something like http://lprof.sourceforge.net/ but I don't have a reference image like that (and possibly it needs known light sources too).
19:29:49 <fizzie> There's even a use-with-ufraw tutorial there.
19:30:10 <fizzie> Starts with "Use a tripod." The phone isn't very tripod-friendly.
19:30:29 <fizzie> Nothing a roll of duct tape couldn't solve, though!
19:31:04 <AnMaster> it was quite easy to build a stable support for my phone in lego
19:31:41 <AnMaster> used it early on with that lego panoramic thingy, to test the idea. Before I built the stuff to hold my camera
19:41:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm it might only be valid in that given light condition or something like that
19:42:36 <fizzie> Well, it's purely hypothetical anyway; I don't think I'm going to go and buy a reference target anyway.
19:48:35 <fizzie> Well, perhaps not in an absolute sense; "-- targets cost from around $40 to one costing significantly more (read hundreds of $'s) --"
19:48:43 <fizzie> Still perhaps not worth it.
19:51:16 <fizzie> I could just photograph any color-patch sheet, and then find a good spectrophotometer to measure what the colors actually mean. I'm sure some department of the university has one.
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19:54:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, you think finding such a spectrophotometer would be easy?
19:54:47 <fizzie> My father's school has a lighting-releated measurements lab; I remember being all ooh-aah (well, I was a lot younger, too) at their fancy devices. There was this one spherical thing in particular; you put a light bulb in one end, and the insides were painted with some paint that cost thousands/liter, and then in the other end was this collection of otherwise-unmarked-except-fancy-product-name-in-red-text black boxes connected with tub
19:54:48 <fizzie> es; and then they all fed into a computer.
19:55:01 <fizzie> I have no clue what it was supposed to measure, but it was a really neat thing nonetheless.
19:55:21 <fizzie> Computer science is so boring when it comes to equipment. We don't even get bubbly liquids.
19:55:40 <pikhq> Just das blinkenlights.
19:55:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait what? product names with tubes?
20:00:05 <fizzie> I think it was supposed to be used for measuring light sources for visualization ray-tracing things that take a real spectral power distribution maps, like RADIANCE and the commercial alternatives.
20:01:22 <fizzie> Oh, and LuxRender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuxRender
20:01:35 <fizzie> "full spectral rendering: Instead of the RGB colour spectrum, full spectra are used for internal calculations."
20:01:41 <fizzie> Everyone should do it like that!
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20:08:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, so hm... is that RADIANCE better than povray?
20:08:49 <fizzie> I guess it depends on whether you want pretty pictures or actual physical simulation.
20:08:58 <AnMaster> "Radiance was developed with primary support from the U.S. Department Of Energy and additional support from the Swiss Federal Government."
20:09:24 <fizzie> Here's one of those spheres: http://www.labsphere.com/productdetail.aspx?id=857
20:10:10 <fizzie> This page has also some of those boxes included: http://www.labsphere.com/productdetail.aspx?id=875&catid=
20:12:35 <fizzie> There was also a gun-like device that you could point at something, then pull the trigger, and it'd beep and measure the surface illumination on the point you pointed at.
20:13:17 <fizzie> Given how much I like all kinds of gadgets, I sure picked the wrong field.
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20:25:26 <fizzie> I have a feeling that Radiance and LuxRender are comparable (at least within a couple of orders of magnitude) on the realistic-simulation scale; certainly they should be better than generic Blender/yafray/povray ones, for "physics-inspired simulation" values of "better".
20:26:30 <fizzie> E.g. in Blender if you add a "sun", it's just unidirectional light with a RGB value; whereas for LuxRender the existing "sun"-type environment light "will model sun lighting from NASA measurements, including atmospheric absorption".
20:27:30 <fizzie> Oh, and you can apply luminous-intensity-distribution curves (that you can get from lighting fixture manufacturers) on point lights; that's a nice tool too.
20:38:56 <fizzie> Radiance does CIE standard sky illumination too. You just run "gensky 7 4 14:30EDT +s -a 42 -o 89" and it outputs a July 4th, 2:30pm EDT sunny ("+s") sky as seen at 42 degrees north, 89 degrees west. (Ripped from man page example.)
20:40:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you select cloud types? I want to render METAR data XD
20:42:59 <fizzie> Not very directly. You can select between CIE clear / intermediate / overcast skies. Of course the sky model is a bit of fakey, but, well, you can only go so far in pursuit of realism.
20:45:42 <fizzie> CIE sky seems to be a messy collection of trigonometric and exponential functions, designed to approximate measurements.
20:48:23 <fizzie> In both systems you can use HDR environment-map images to provide light intensity, if you happen to have some.
20:48:43 <fizzie> And for any light you can provide as data file the spectral distribution of it.
20:50:19 <fizzie> I don't think it supports a 2d-map where each point has a separately measured spectrum, but, uh... really. I'm not aware of any file formats for that sort of stuff either.
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20:58:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw the main thing I noticed is that almost always 3D rendered pictures are too perfect. That is the main way to tell them apart
20:59:40 <fizzie> Oh, and of course materials for both systems are done by cheating, and not actually modeling what happens to them photons.
21:00:27 <fizzie> Still, LuxRender does metals (hold, silver, copper, aluminium, carbon) based on measured data presets, and accepts "n/k spectral data files in the sopra format", whatever that is.
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21:34:20 <Madk> I've made another language
21:34:27 <Madk> but I don't want to overdo it on the commands
21:34:52 <Madk> It's on a 2D grid
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21:35:04 <Madk> <>^v change the direction of a pointer
21:35:14 <Madk> % is where the pointer(s) start
21:35:28 <Madk> x kills a pointer, @ kills the program
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21:35:43 <Madk> # makes 3 pointers in the opposing cardinal directions
21:35:55 <Madk> and " starts and stops printing a string
21:36:09 <Madk> I know I definitely need some conditional program flow in there
21:36:37 <Madk> I have pointers incrementing/decrementing with + and -
21:36:41 <Madk> = sets it to zero
21:37:02 <Madk> I'm thinking maybe ? destroys a pointer if it's 0 and ! destroys it if it's not
21:37:06 <Madk> something like that
21:37:19 <Madk> there's also basic i/o
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21:52:36 <AnMaster> Madk, why not make it self modifying
21:52:45 <Madk> it is to an extent
21:52:55 <Madk> I don't want it to be too similar, though
21:53:02 <AnMaster> so code and data storage is shared?
21:53:20 <Madk> every pointer has 1 byte of data
21:53:35 <Madk> and the field is modifiable to a point
21:53:56 <Madk> I'm still owrking things out though :P
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21:57:46 * Ilari is writing interpretter for new esolang... :-)
21:59:31 <Ilari> So far 10 of 37 opcodes implemented... And there are some opcodes to be defined.
21:59:41 <cheater99> http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1091/71108837.jpg VS http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1416/p77k.jpg
22:01:45 <oerjan> popeye wouldn't hit a girl!
22:02:57 * oerjan has no idea who the girl is, in case that's important
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22:21:01 <Sgeo> Wasn't that pic on Reddit?
22:22:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, details on that esolang?
22:22:40 <AnMaster> cheater99, the latter one looks like he has a bell curve on his arm
22:23:29 <Sgeo> AnMaster, that's totally normal
22:26:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: dammit don't tell me you don't even know popeye
22:29:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, but I still think that looks like a bell curve
22:29:34 <oerjan> well the whole point of popeye is he isn't realistic
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22:30:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, no I don't think that is the *whole* point
22:30:52 <AnMaster> because you can get a lot more unrealistic
22:30:57 <oerjan> i'm exaggerating for effect, there. like that curve.
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22:33:31 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_the_Jeep <-- now _that's_ unrealistic :D
22:34:32 <Ilari> AnMaster: Each codepoint in program source is instruction (some are invalid, none has parameters). Storage includes stack, RAM and tape swap space (with destructive read).
22:34:36 <pikhq> The whole point of Popeye is to sell spinach.
22:35:05 <ais523> Ilari: reminds me vaguely of some sort of extended BF
22:35:10 <ais523> which is famous for effectively being destructive-read
22:36:19 <Ilari> TCness requires use of swap space. And all flow transfers are unconditional.
22:36:41 <pikhq> Cooked spinach disturbs me.
22:37:15 * oerjan now gets a sudden craving for spinach soup. and he doesn't have any. :(
22:37:41 <oerjan> i haven't had it in years
22:37:47 <pikhq> Fresh spinach is freaking delicious, though.
22:37:57 <Ilari> (only flow control primitive is relative unconditional jump).
22:38:08 <pikhq> And, actually, when the spinach is *in* something it's rather nice. Just straight cooked spinach though? Urgh.
22:39:33 <ais523> I like spinach-flavoured pasta
22:39:48 <Ilari> I need to define load extension library instruction, map instruction instruction, test instruction instruction and unmap instruction instruction.
22:39:49 <ais523> Ilari: relative unconditional jump's a great control-flow operator
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22:47:49 <aliseiphone> Mugged by mathematics!—suddenly Bjorn jumped in startlation as the lactating plants pulsated as they grew into immersive tree landscapes. Bjorn, on the whole, preferred grass.
22:48:35 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Ah, mein Fuerher! Ein volk ein reich ein Fuerher, da?
22:49:00 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Quite so! I suggest we kill all the Jews and one clown.
22:49:08 <pikhq> Gespersprachen ales der Reichsvolksenkoffen!
22:49:24 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Why all the Jews? I get the clown, but the Jews?
22:49:25 <ais523> aliseiphone: I've heard that one before
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22:50:02 <ais523> not in the top 200, though
22:50:17 <pikhq> ais523: Wait, what?
22:50:18 <aliseiphone> ais523: Huh. Well, it used at be, at least.
22:50:19 <ais523> or if it is, I don't remember seing it there
22:51:24 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Fucking clowns. Only thing worse is a nwolc.
22:52:35 <ais523> hmm, some of them are charming
22:59:13 <aliseiphone> The whole point of bash is basically its crassness.
22:59:22 <ais523> hmm, things that make me smile when I read them
22:59:30 <ais523> I don't like the crass ones as much
22:59:56 <aliseiphone> The "responds to pings; just physically can't find it" one.
23:00:03 <ais523> the responds to pings is #2
23:00:09 <ais523> well, second on the list
23:00:52 <ais523> that's pretty high up too
23:01:03 <ais523> I'm rereading the top 100, and haven't come across the tetris one yet though
23:02:21 <aliseiphone> ... Bjorn entered the shop through an interdimensional portal, fought a hundred year war in the middle, found true love, had children, watched them grow up, and bought crisps. He left the shop with less than a pound out of his pocket.
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23:14:05 <aliseiphone> He walked towards the Boothy Booth, the premiere showcase for all fans of boothes, and in a fit of naïvety attempted to descend into the miniature copy of the Boothy Booth contained inside it. Alas, he tripped over it and flattened its containing tent just as a gigantic Bjorn flattened Boothy Booth.
23:14:45 <ais523> I have no idea what you're quoting from
23:14:55 <ais523> or if that's newly-created entertainment
23:17:16 * oerjan once had a dream somewhat like that with a miniature copy of the place he was on some kind of blackboard. i think it was inspired by a similar comic i saw. obviously i had to touch the recursion point, and the dream ended with the world somehow unraveling into something like pixels.
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23:17:50 <oerjan> rather uncomfortable feeling, i recall
23:20:23 <oerjan> still, better than the dreams of being hunted/caught by a pack of carnivorous dinosaurs. (yes, that used to be recurring.)
23:23:59 <cheater99> oerjan: and very fair so, you little mammarian meatbag
23:24:42 <cheater99> mammarian. as in, made out of mammaries.
23:25:07 * Sgeo had a weird dream this afternoon, but I don't think anyone wants to hear it
23:25:54 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Raptors CHASING YOU IN TO THE FIXED POINT
23:26:33 <ais523> hmm, well I suppose you have a lot of spare time with nothing much to do in it
23:26:55 <oerjan> i don't think they were raptors. probably tyrannosaurs.
23:27:41 <aliseiphone> oerjan: so what do quantum voxels feel like
23:28:04 <oerjan> at least that's what my vague recall says.
23:28:39 <aliseiphone> Schrodinger's cat actually just feels really uncomfortable.
23:29:17 * cheater99 sets up an experiment with Schrdinger's alise
23:30:07 <Sgeo> cheater99, [this is the dream, not RL] a girl I've known since 1st grade turned out to be sisters with a girl I met, but who I think generally ignores me [in college]. So the first girl invited me to her house, then I saw the second girl, and it was her birthday
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23:30:25 <Sgeo> Nothing happened, so don't think that that's why I said >.>
23:32:10 <Sgeo> Oh, at the end, there was some picture thing, and she didn't want me standing near her
23:32:31 <Sgeo> Oh, and completely unrelated, I cannot figure out where this fits, there was a quarantine of some sort, different DCs
23:33:00 <ais523> hmm, seems it's not illegal to violate a website TOS in the US
23:33:11 <ais523> (court judgement yesterday)
23:33:24 <ais523> but it is illegal to try to get around technical attempts to lock you out
23:34:10 <Sgeo> Eeep, I did that once
23:34:29 <ais523> it would be really appropriate to host C-INTERCAL on a MySpace account
23:36:54 <ais523> I probably won't, though; I'm having difficulty figuring out if the MySpace license is compatible with the GPL
23:37:12 <ais523> probably is if there's a statement of the GPL actually inside the tarball, though
23:39:17 * ais523 vaguely wonders why MySpace's (very reasonable) TOS contains "I HAVE READ THIS AGREEMENT AND AGREE TO ALL OF THE PROVISIONS CONTAINED ABOVE." at the end
23:39:22 <ais523> presumably, they want us to agree to that
23:39:32 <ais523> agreeing to their own TOS doesn't make much sense
23:40:25 <Sgeo> When you presume, you make a pres out of u and me
23:41:36 <ais523> I doubt I could create a page quite awful enough to look properly MySpacy, though
23:41:57 <ais523> (the alternative would be to make it a perfect HTML4/HTML5 polyglot, with full accessibility features, and host it on MySpace anyway)
23:42:38 <Sgeo> Is an HTML4/HTML5 polygot possible? Aren't there different doctypes or something?
23:43:21 <ais523> well, as near as possible
23:43:41 <ais523> a bit of the page source is probably fixed by MySpace as it is
23:46:03 <Madk> my interpreter is acting up for some reason when it gets to a / from below
23:46:22 <Madk> it makes no sense at all and I really don't know why
23:46:37 <Madk> I think I know why now ._.
23:46:42 <Madk> but it still makes no sense
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23:47:56 <aliseiphone> ais523: you "design" with utterly insane css in the about me section
23:47:58 <ais523> aliseiphone: you could just make the rest of the source really long to compensate
23:48:29 <aliseiphone> just an abuse of the lenient HTML allowance
23:48:32 <ais523> that sounds like MySpace, all right
23:48:50 <aliseiphone> although iirc you can't use div or something
23:52:26 * Sgeo wonders what would go horribly, horribly wrong if he wrote a C program for AW that acted as a Lua host
23:56:42 <aliseiphone> ais523: remember when nobody used facebook and everyone went on about myspace? Maybe next we'll be back to Friendster.
23:57:07 <ais523> oh, I /hope/ Facebook collapses
23:57:13 <ais523> the chance of whatever replacing it being even worse is rather low
23:57:27 <aliseiphone> Speaking of "all right", alright is so a word.
23:57:33 <ais523> that said, MySpace still seems to be very popular among bands
23:57:40 <ais523> aliseiphone: it is, I think; but it has a slightly different meaning IMO
23:57:52 <aliseiphone> yes, facebook has very few provisions for bands
23:58:00 <ais523> I thought conciously about which to use before I used it
23:58:46 <aliseiphone> btw, old OEDs are awesome — well, concise OED, but still
23:59:00 <ais523> perhaps it's a word now even if it used not to be
23:59:34 <aliseiphone> It has rime and gaol preferred over rhyme and gaol. "Gullible" is actually not in it, just "gull" with "hence ~ible". :-)
00:00:13 <aliseiphone> And of course the definitions are the usual near-inscrutable OED fare, at least 60's OED...
00:01:39 <aliseiphone> IPA is incomprehensible to the non-dedicated; the old style was integrated into the word and merely provided helpful cues. Bah.
00:05:45 <AnMaster> ais523, anything wrong with current C-INTERCAL host?
00:06:08 <ais523> I just thought MySpace would be a nicely ridiculous alternative
00:06:10 <ais523> I'm just not quite that mad
00:07:54 <aliseiphone> grumble. Reddit now has a subscriber thing.
00:09:00 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, supposedly, features that get rolled out to subscribers will be given to the public later
00:09:11 <Sgeo> And also, I'm planning on getting Reddit Gold
00:10:04 <aliseiphone> One, whatever; two, I'm not surprised. Enjoy your festering shitpile that now costs — but! But userpage sorting!
00:12:46 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Is truly believing someone is vocalising when they're just lipmimetalking a symptom of autism?
00:13:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Mmm? No. That's just being dumb.
00:13:50 <aliseiphone> pikhq: What about memorising everything EXCEPT just any single, incredibly common nonliteral phrase?
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00:14:54 <aliseiphone> He will go on and on about "BUT IT MAKES NO SENSE" and whinge even after its nonliterality is revealed — then forget it for next time.
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00:15:33 <aliseiphone> I am in Hell and Satan is twelve years old.
00:15:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Partly autism, mostly just being stupid.
00:16:07 <pikhq> (namely, the *ability* to give a fuck is autism, the *actually* giving a fuck is being stupid)
00:17:04 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Yeah, I don't think he WANTS to understand things like "joke", "idiom", "tone of voice", "opinion".
00:17:58 <aliseiphone> Maybe I should rearrange his comics some time so he gets to spend years putting them back >__>
00:18:21 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, I was planning to send a postcard
00:18:54 <Sgeo> You can send a postcard to get a month of Reddit Gold
00:19:04 <Sgeo> At least for now
00:19:39 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How odd.
00:19:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: What about insisting he verbally acknowledged something you said several times after having what I will term "OCD process switching hangup", despite being utterly silent?
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00:20:15 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Uh. WTF?
00:20:52 <pikhq> Also: in my experience, the *idea* of a joke isn't exactly hard for autistics to understand. Just some kinds of humor fall flat.
00:21:31 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Any form of joke that isn't... Saying something he believes to be true while laughing... he considers a "lie".
00:21:47 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... He's busy being an idiot then.
00:21:51 <aliseiphone> He gets especially offended if an adult plays along and it is later revealed.
00:22:14 <aliseiphone> Before it is revealed he tries to convince you of not what-you-joked.
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00:22:50 <pikhq> Might I suggest murder?
00:23:01 <aliseiphone> He finds sarcasm, even overtly droooning saaarcasm of oobviousness, unacceptable because it's "too hard" to detect.
00:23:19 <aliseiphone> So he's tone deaf too. And lives outside of tiiiiiiimmeee.
00:23:19 <pikhq> How odd. I absolutely love sarcasm.
00:23:48 <pikhq> I'll sometimes actually *miss* sarcasm, but that's quite different from not understanding it in general.
00:23:58 <pikhq> Arguably, I like sarcasm too *much*.
00:24:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: What about inability to believe that the casing around a sausage is intestine?
00:24:26 <pikhq> But, then. I'm 20. This is generally true.
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00:24:45 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that there's a fairly well know virtual world I haven't explored
00:24:57 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... Wait, wait, wait. You have found an autistic person that wouldn't be content to read an encyclopedia all day long?
00:25:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Well, he believed it when someone who isn't me said it.
00:25:40 <aliseiphone> Maybe I tried to convince him the moon is made of cheese one time too many.
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00:25:47 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, Farmville
00:25:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Have you considered post-term abortion?
00:25:52 <Sgeo> I know nothing about it
00:25:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: Have you considered post-term self abortion?
00:26:23 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Also, I don't think he reads anything but comics—sorry, "graphic novels".
00:26:57 <pikhq> aliseiphone: You have found an autistic person who is both literate and *doesn't* like reading. This... Is shocking.
00:27:01 <aliseiphone> Instead of Superman beating up a bad guy he beats up a bad guy on more, glossier pages and with a stronger book spine.
00:27:36 <pikhq> aliseiphone: A graphic novel != a comic on a glossier pages, BTW.
00:28:24 <pikhq> So... He's reading some of the inferior things in the comic medium. Wonderful.
00:28:41 <aliseiphone> Enter library; exit with 10 thick hardback Superman anthologies. Amusing to watch.
00:29:05 * Sgeo can imagine picking up Order of the Stick books
00:30:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: He raged at some of them being rated 18 in the library system because IT IS LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DEPICT THE LAST SON OF KRYPTON IN AN ADULT SITUATION ROAAARGH
00:30:52 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I think he'd absolutely despise Niven's essay "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex".
00:31:07 <aliseiphone> God is his voice annoying too. And his way of making demands followed by "please".
00:31:10 <pikhq> (which is a favorite of mine)
00:31:23 <Sgeo> Anything can be depicted in an adult situation
00:31:33 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Would you like to be institutionalised permanently?
00:31:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: There Is Porn Of It.
00:32:23 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Then murder is not recommended.
00:33:28 <aliseiphone> pikhq: He constantly truly believes he is almost "cured" when he has a near breakdown after someone brushes the back of his hands with their close on the way out of the Wrong Elevator (On the wrong side!).
00:34:07 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Cure? Autism? Whaaaaaat?
00:34:23 <pikhq> Cure? OCD? Whaaaaaat?
00:34:42 <pikhq> As an aside: autism + OCD cannot be pleasant.
00:34:47 <aliseiphone> Then he tries to close taxi's door with pinky. Wince. Uses hand. "Now I have to wash both."
00:35:04 <aliseiphone> Seatbelt. Yeah. Taxi driver ended up doing that one.
00:35:44 <aliseiphone> Journey's end. It's okay; I can CRAWL out from underneath the seatbelt!
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00:36:02 <aliseiphone> No? I can press the release button with my ELBOW!
00:36:21 <pikhq> Don't they, uh, have effective medication for OCD?
00:36:47 <aliseiphone> pikhq: They give him pills. Probably no better than placebo.
00:37:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Oh, right. Unit's run by idiots.
00:37:31 <aliseiphone> They wanted to give me pills. I refused because I'm not crazy and enjoy this mental state.
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00:38:12 <pikhq> (if a medicine does not help with a condition, *fucking stop the medication*. I thought that was the first freaking rule of medication.)
00:39:46 <aliseiphone> Wow, that was the work of a poet and this fact was obscured to me.
00:40:06 <pikhq> You may praise thy muse.
00:40:24 <pikhq> Thou may wish to praise thine muse.
00:40:56 <aliseiphone> rearrange that pristine, sterile "display" of comic books
00:41:53 <pikhq> aliseiphone: You have, what, one more week as an in-patient?
00:42:00 <aliseiphone> stuff him onto a crowded tube in America ...
00:43:23 <aliseiphone> never be able to get out, even with a lock on the inside.)
00:43:33 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, please don't turn into a bully
00:43:34 <pikhq> I do believe that you love free verse.
00:43:40 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Yes. And he is on holiday for two weeks!
00:44:13 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Can't I fucking rant? Try living this!
00:45:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: He doesn't come downstairs... So I hopefully will never see him again.
00:46:23 <aliseiphone> pikhq: But I have a tiny copy of him in my head now.
00:47:20 <aliseiphone> BTW, while I have to do things like "class" and "group" he wiles away his days drawing comics and cometing Z
00:49:14 <aliseiphone> Can they really possibly still love him? Twelve years of it!!
00:49:15 <pikhq> aliseiphone: You do not want a lobotomy.
00:49:31 <aliseiphone> I've only had *months* and have 50% grey hairs!
00:50:58 <aliseiphone> Incidentally he has abandoned his career as comic writer/drawer for the more realistic paeleontology. XD
00:51:39 <aliseiphone> I'm pretty sure this is just taken off "Friends" which he for some inexplicable reason watches repeats of religiously.
00:51:59 <aliseiphone> On the main TV of course, so there's even less for anyone else to do.
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00:52:35 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Why couldn't he be interested in something a bit more... At all interesting?
00:52:42 <pikhq> Like, say, paleontology?
00:53:01 <aliseiphone> Perhaps this is all a ludicrously vivid nightmare.
00:53:25 <aliseiphone> Actually on several occasions I have entertained the idea that I am in a work of fiction here.
00:53:46 <pikhq> Author's a right asshole.
00:54:03 <aliseiphone> If I am, (a) wow. Greatest novellist of all time and (b) FUCKING STOP IT
00:54:43 <aliseiphone> (c) is there a happy ending I don't mind spoilers :P
00:55:18 <Madk> I made the Fibonacci sequence in my super-awesome new language
00:55:40 <Madk> It's stinking hard to write programs in
00:55:49 <Madk> not because the commands are limiting, no
00:56:03 <Madk> it takes place on a 2d grid
00:56:08 <aliseiphone> pikhq: If you said you'd keep your eyes peeled for something and I went on about how that would be really painful—would you punch me?
00:56:13 <Madk> every instruction pointer can hold 2 bytes
00:56:27 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Depends on how you said it.
00:56:38 <pikhq> aliseiphone: And how often you say things like that.
00:56:42 <Madk> you have to make a ton of pointers work together despite different operations
00:56:59 <pikhq> aliseiphone: If I didn't punch you, I'd either groan or giggle.
00:57:04 <Madk> and if they have anything to do with each other their lines for code have to intersect
00:57:10 <aliseiphone> pikhq: "Concerned" tone of voice. Not totally full volume. Prolonged and sparse utterances. And, all the time.
00:57:22 <pikhq> Okay, I'd fucking punch you.
00:57:27 <Madk> for example, my fibonacci sequence program is 2 entirely separate program
00:57:51 <Madk> one to output the sequence and another to end the program in the time it takes the sequence to reach 233
00:59:03 <Madk> it's called "Cardinal" if you look on the wiki.
00:59:34 <aliseiphone> Madk: I guess the current talk must be a bit confusing for you X-P
00:59:49 <Madk> haven't been paying attention, really :P
00:59:57 <Madk> busy trying to figure out a bug
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01:01:13 <aliseiphone> Probably a good thing. Tl;dr: I am in a "children's sorta blend between boarding school and mental institution" because crazy people don't care about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Agony and subsequent venting ensues.
01:01:31 <aliseiphone> I'll be back at home for good soon, though... probably.
01:04:04 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Rate this game: Word is picked randomly. Dictionary definition given. Three guesses as to the word. etc. This is what boredom causes.
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01:04:50 <aliseiphone> *Clearly the name should be a quantum computing pun (reverse dictionary lookup)
01:05:17 <cheater99> aliseiphone: i have many girls. which one do you mean?
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01:37:33 <Madk> oerjan: hehehe, sorry XD
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01:39:44 <oerjan> Madk: YOU APPEAR TO BE CONSISTENTLY AGAINST THE ORDER OF THINGS
01:40:20 <oerjan> wait, _inconsistently_
01:40:31 <Madk> oerjan: I don't know whay I was thinking r was after t
01:40:47 <Madk> oerjan: msu be the hyphen
01:42:09 <oerjan> well, you _are_ mad, k?
01:44:05 * Gregor smacks oerjan in an erotic manner
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02:21:55 <pikhq> Hmm... Windows NT 3.1 had a POSIX subsystem...
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02:57:23 <Sgeo> Dear DAEMON Tools: I thought I _specifically_ said not to install a toolbar!
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03:20:37 <Sgeo> Someone competent finally has access to the codebase.
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04:27:57 <Gregor> cpressey: Who is Diana Gibraiel, why don't I know her, and why is she wearing a fez in her Facebook picture?
04:28:11 <Gregor> For you see, I too am wearing a fez in my Facebook picture. And so I feel we must be kindred spirits.
04:28:55 <pikhq> She is clearly a wearer of fez.
04:29:31 <Gregor> Part of the Fez Mafia.
04:29:39 <Gregor> Which totally does not exist so don't go looking it up or anything.
04:30:11 * pikhq shall put on his trenchcoat and investigate
04:30:26 <Gregor> HEY COME ON GUY I SAID IT DOESN'T EXIST
04:30:29 <pikhq> Investigate as to whether or not a fez & trenchcoat is the most awesome thing ever.
04:30:45 <Gregor> I don't have my trenchcoat here in Washington.
04:30:51 <Gregor> I could totally provide evidence.
04:31:04 <Gregor> "Only when your hair is like a POWERFUL MANE"
04:31:08 <pikhq> Sadly, I am short on fez.
04:31:35 <Gregor> DO WE NEED TO HAVE A HAIR-OFF? THE KIND THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE REMOVING HAIR BUT COMPARING HAIR LENGTH!
04:32:16 <Gregor> Oh, well I can't compete there at all.
04:32:42 <Gregor> Although come to think of it, I do need a shave.
04:32:48 <pikhq> Victorious! In spite of having a very short & kempt beard ATM!
04:32:59 <pikhq> (the UNIX beard was getting a bit... Much.)
04:36:09 <Gregor> I think in terms of total-head-hair-volume I win.
04:36:22 <Gregor> Total hair volume Idonno, I don't know how hair you are :P
04:37:16 <pikhq> I *do* keep fairly long hair...
04:37:28 <Gregor> <pikhq> In a jar on my counter
04:37:44 <pikhq> Not "a furry", just. I have hair everywhere.
04:38:05 <Gregor> Whereas I am distressingly smooooooth :P
04:38:17 <pikhq> My freaking toes have hair!
04:38:34 <Gregor> My freaking ... legs have hair. And forearms. Aaaaaaand that's it.
04:38:57 <Gregor> And by "have hair", I mean "have a non-zero but barely visible amount of hair"
04:39:40 <Gregor> Also, yes, my legs DO have forearms. Just in case you got confused by my dangling participle.
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07:18:32 <CakeProphet> so you are cordially invited to my birthday party this Saturday
07:18:43 <CakeProphet> where we will be sporting two handles of Smirnoff
07:18:48 <CakeProphet> unfortunately, most of you live in other countries
07:18:53 <CakeProphet> so I understand if you will be unable to attend.
07:19:58 <Gregor> Also several of us don't drink.
07:20:08 <Gregor> However we do now know where to rape^H^H^H^Hfind you.
07:21:13 <Gregor> That sounds like people who say they drive better just a little buzzed.
07:21:32 <Gregor> That's usually moments before I say "BUZZED LIKE THIS?!" and then cut them to shreds with a chainsaw.
07:21:53 <CakeProphet> there is a point where one becomes better at certain skills
07:23:15 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Many programmers tend to dislike disabling themselves mentally.
07:23:26 <pikhq> Though still others absolutely love it.
07:23:31 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/vcards/demo/ Who wants to turn this into something that has a server? :P
07:23:54 <CakeProphet> I guess you are disabling yourself mentally. But that's what makes it great. :)
07:24:02 <pikhq> And still others absolutely love various illegal drugs, in particular ones that are claimed to "enhance" ones mental state in some sense.
07:24:12 <pikhq> (psychadelics, weed, etc.)
07:24:21 <CakeProphet> I have attempted to program while high. Doesn't work.
07:24:34 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I never said anything about programming *while* on them.
07:24:38 <CakeProphet> programming requires a certain cache of short term memory that... goes away.
07:24:54 <pikhq> Programming under the influence of anything stronger than, oh, coffee, is probably a bad idea.
07:25:49 <CakeProphet> actually, I bet speed would enhance programming ability. Not that I advocate the use of that particular drug.
07:26:56 <pikhq> Of course this is all a moot point because programmers are *of course* all completely upright and outstanding citizens who would never break a law. :P
07:27:16 <Gregor> Except sodomy laws in some countries.
07:27:48 <pikhq> Gregor: Keep in mind that in the US it is effectively illegal to program...
07:27:51 <Gregor> Whereas my response was so DEAD SERIOUS it totally killed the conversation :P
07:28:42 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Are you familiar with patent law?
07:28:50 <Gregor> Well, more accurately, software patents are so broad that you probably violate a patent if you sneeze.
07:29:03 <Gregor> Sneeze near a computer, and now you're just punked.
07:29:16 <pikhq> I'd estimate that, by now, it is impossible to not violate patent law when making a non-trivial program.
07:29:55 <pikhq> Oh, you stuck a second pointer in your linked list struct? Woops, that's a patent. You implemented double-clicking? That's a patent.
07:30:20 <CakeProphet> patent law is stupid though. So that's okay.
07:30:27 <pikhq> There's also the DMCA.
07:30:28 <CakeProphet> I'll live dangerously and rebellious program.
07:30:47 <pikhq> Which makes any sort of "circumvention device" illegal...
07:30:53 <pikhq> And, in fact, criminal.
07:31:06 <CakeProphet> circumvention device? what is that exactly?
07:31:34 <pikhq> Any device that circumvents an "access-control technology".
07:31:47 * CakeProphet prefers his law to be in terms of well-defined concrete entities
07:31:59 <CakeProphet> pikhq: so... do you just spend hours digesting US legalese?
07:32:04 <pikhq> For instance, root.
07:32:19 <pikhq> CakeProphet: No, but I did several years ago.
07:32:29 <pikhq> Among other things, I read US copyright law. All of it.
07:32:41 <pikhq> It's mother-fucking nuts.
07:32:51 <CakeProphet> I don't think there's too many US citizens who are not lawyers that have done that.
07:33:07 <pikhq> There's hardly any that have read *any* of the law, for that matter.
07:33:38 <CakeProphet> I read law as it is relevant to my situation. I read some contract law recently in relation to my university apartment contract.
07:33:54 <pikhq> Which country you in?
07:34:05 <Gregor> I don't read law. I just cry, quietly, in the fetal position.
07:34:12 <pikhq> Hmm. Your reading of contract law probably omitted a lot.
07:34:16 <pikhq> Most of that is common law.
07:34:19 <CakeProphet> contract law here is also crazy. You can agree to some pretty ridiculous fine print.
07:34:27 <CakeProphet> yeah. I used wikipedia for the common law part.
07:34:33 <pikhq> A decent chunk of which is inherited from British law.
07:34:43 <CakeProphet> but there's some specific bills regarding contracts between lenders and such.
07:34:49 <Gregor> *unless you're in Louisiana
07:35:08 <pikhq> Gregor: Federal law is still common law, even if the state is under civil law.
07:35:15 <pikhq> Well, partially common law.
07:35:37 <Gregor> But contract law has both laws at both federal and state level.
07:35:43 <CakeProphet> so are there actually written documents of British law that would be relevant to an American contract case?
07:35:53 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Court decisions, more like.
07:36:01 <pikhq> CakeProphet: And yes.
07:36:24 <CakeProphet> I think I got the basic idea from wikipedia though. I believe it actually cited some British cases.
07:37:01 <pikhq> Worse still in Virginia. All court decisions of the UK that don't violate a local or federal law are valid in Virginia.
07:37:46 <CakeProphet> ...doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think you should be expected to mentally digest a contract in a short sitting or, say, when installing some software. And then be legally obligated to uphold it, even if it allows the contract writer to basically do anything.
07:38:06 <pikhq> From my experience with legal systems, lawyers do not know jack about making understandable complex systems.
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07:38:28 <Gregor> From my experience with software systems, programmers do not know jack about making understandable complex systems.
07:38:32 <pikhq> Or, for that matter, well-functioning complex systems.
07:38:39 <pikhq> Gregor: This much is true.
07:38:40 <Gregor> Or, for that matter, well-functioning complex systems.
07:39:07 <pikhq> It's just that laws make Java object hierarchies look clean.
07:39:25 <CakeProphet> according to my apartment contract they can basically kick me out for whatever reason they like
07:39:45 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Which state?
07:43:32 <pikhq> If it came up you could probably fight that as an unconscionable contract.
07:43:50 <pikhq> (an unconscionable term is a term that no reasonable person would agree to.)
07:45:54 <CakeProphet> it's just such a vague notion to me. I wouldn't know which terms are unconscionable
07:46:01 <CakeProphet> but I bet there are a lot of them in that contract
07:46:06 <pikhq> Law is ridiculously vague.
07:46:20 <pikhq> Agora nomicers should be allowed to rewrite it.
07:46:53 <CakeProphet> I believe they can change the terms of the contract arbitrarily as well, with notice to the signer.
07:47:10 <pikhq> That is an entirely unconscionable contract.
07:47:33 <CakeProphet> and there's not really any way for me to exit the contract unless I decide not to enroll, get an intership 50 miles from campus, or have a baby.
07:48:09 <CakeProphet> ...I really wanted to fight it, but it would be a headache to do so.
07:48:12 <pikhq> What, is this for a dorm?
07:48:31 <CakeProphet> I signed the contract, but realized I could just get an apartment with some friends off campus. Too late.
07:48:32 <pikhq> If any of this bites you at all, you have a tidy sum on your hands.
07:49:04 <pikhq> Causes you problems.
07:50:11 <pikhq> Because, uh... This contract is clearly having unreasonable terms added from a superior bargaining position, and is hence mostly unenforcable...
07:50:16 <CakeProphet> so you're saying I have a legitimate case? My experience with the legal system has been that absolutely no one takes me seriously.
07:51:00 <pikhq> I must postface all this with: I am not a lawyer, just a nerd.
07:51:58 <CakeProphet> I /might/ talk to a lawyer about it then. Though, I dunno, at this point I've almost decided that I might as well take the contract as it will be less stressful.
07:52:15 <CakeProphet> Getting a regular apartment involves handling bills. I'd rather delay that for the time being. :P
07:52:28 <CakeProphet> and instead amass enormous student loan debts. :D :D :D
07:52:44 <pikhq> Don't bother talking to a lawyer unless the contract actually causes you problems.
07:53:18 <CakeProphet> well, the original "problem" was that I changed my mind, basically. I don't think that will hold up in court.
07:53:22 <ais523> CakeProphet: basically, you shouldn't point out that the clause is invalid unless they actually try to kick you out
07:53:44 <ais523> hmm, maybe that doesn't work
07:54:13 <pikhq> CakeProphet: If you merely decided after the fact that you don't want to be in the dorm? Sorry, no recourse for changing your mind about a contract.
07:54:23 <ais523> pikhq: as far as I remember, unconsiconable terms don't invalidate the entire contract, just those terms
07:54:26 <pikhq> Just ways of dealing with it being bullshit.
07:54:31 <pikhq> ais523: Generally, yes.
07:54:57 <pikhq> ais523: If the removal of the unconscionable terms makes the rest of the contract fall apart, then the contract does so.
07:55:55 <CakeProphet> pikhq: though, I was actually not really aware I had signed a contract at that point until I asked to be removed from the list. It was an e-contract. The contract was a linked PDF, and there was a "I agree" button on the page. I should have paid more attention.
07:56:31 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Oooohboy.
07:56:53 <CakeProphet> I thought you needed a specific clause for that?
07:57:06 <pikhq> Jury was still out on clickwrap contracts being valid, right?
07:57:38 <pikhq> It's 2. I should sleep. XD
07:58:13 <CakeProphet> Severability is a concept in contract law which allows people to separate out the components of a contract so that in the event that one aspect is deemed impossible to enforce or invalid, the rest of the contract is not affected. In order to invoke severability, a contract must specifically include a severability clause which indicates that invalidity or unenforceability of some sections of a contract does not render the entire
07:58:58 <pikhq> Ah, yes; if you don't have that in the contract then it doesn't exist.
07:59:06 <pikhq> Because law is batshit.
07:59:15 <pikhq> Of course, only the most naive contracts omit it.
07:59:31 <CakeProphet> it's been a while since I checked, but I do believe it has one.
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08:00:41 <CakeProphet> what pisses me off about these e-contracts is that US law doesn't really specify that you need any kind of digitially encrypted signature.
08:01:22 <pikhq> US law actually does not generally require signatures for contracts; just proof of agreement.
08:01:55 <pikhq> In some states, one can actually go to court over an entirely spoken contract if you can prove that the agreement was made.
08:02:12 <CakeProphet> Under UETA, the term means "an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically associated with a record and executed or adopted by a person with the intent to sign the record."
08:03:34 <pikhq> "With the intent to sign the record."
08:04:16 <CakeProphet> you know, technical people should probably help draft technical laws.
08:05:02 <pikhq> Yes, but on the other hand you could end up with C++ templates in law.
08:05:23 <CakeProphet> ...maybe they did consult technical folk, and they still prefer vague legalese.
08:06:14 * CakeProphet designs a legal programming language, for formally unambiguous laws. :)
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08:17:07 <CakeProphet> Canadian law (PIPEDA) attempts to clarify the situation by first defining a generic electronic signature as "a signature that consists of one or more letters, characters, numbers or other symbols in digital form incorporated in, attached to or associated with an electronic document", then defining a secure electronic signature as an electronic signature with specific properties. PIPEDA's secure electronic signature regulations re
08:17:14 <CakeProphet> see.... this seems much more sensible to me.
08:23:28 <CakeProphet> version controlled legal documents with clearly notated dependencies and unambiguous meaning. :)
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12:08:42 <zzo38> Can you please tell me if you know the portable way of calling external programs using C codes?
12:11:07 <zzo38> Please tell me if this way is OK http://sprunge.us/RhYH
12:15:00 <zzo38> I want to work on Windows and on UNIX systems
12:31:15 <fizzie> I don't know about the Windows side, but the Unix side should perhaps use waitpid() with the just-obtained pid, instead of just wait(). And you may want to return something like "WIFEXITED(status) ? WEXITSTATUS(status) : -1" to get a more reasonable number out.
12:32:13 <fizzie> system(3) would do the waiting for you, but there's the shell-metacharacter problems if you want to be sure your argv gets passed directly as-is.
12:33:24 <fizzie> (Admittedly seems that system(3) on this system returns the wait return value directly, so you might as well.)
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12:39:49 <fizzie> And I guess for correctness the _spawnvp first argument should be _P_WAIT and not a literal 0, even though it probably is the same thing.
12:44:24 * Sgeo_ should not have stayed up all night reading a chatlog
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13:36:41 <zzo38> I will see if this program works, anyways
13:36:49 <zzo38> But I can test it only on Windows
13:39:12 <zzo38> And, was it alise who asked me if I can change CWEAVE to print spaces in strings as actual blank spaces? I have done so. (However, I have not yet made it print "\n" as the "n" in a circle or diamond, mostly because I don't know how!)
13:39:37 <zzo38> (Do you know how?)
13:53:15 <Madk> What's CWEAVE?
13:54:03 <Madk> zzo38: What's CWEAVE?
13:54:32 <zzo38> Madk: It is part of CWEB. Although in this case, it is Enhanced CWEB.
13:54:47 <zzo38> (Enhanced CWEB is my own version of CWEB with many changes and improvements)
13:54:58 <zzo38> Madk: Not yet. Sorry.
13:55:16 <zzo38> To the standard CWEB?
13:55:49 <zzo38> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/cweb.html
13:56:09 <zzo38> Please note that Enhanced CWEB has a lot of differences and new features, including meta-macros
13:56:20 <zzo38> But you will have to wait for Enhanced CWEB
13:57:01 <Madk> So this is like a documentation system?
13:57:53 <zzo38> Madk: That is one thing it is. But it is more.
13:58:22 <Madk> So what "n" in a cricle or diamond are you talking about?
13:58:33 <Madk> is this a specific character?
14:01:33 <zzo38> See http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/cweb2.png for an example of what I mean. See how "\n" is currently printed as overtyped \n but someone suggested instead making it the "n" inside of another shape, which I agree is better but I don't know how to do that in TeX
14:03:45 <Madk> How is it overtyped?
14:03:59 <Madk> seems like you might use a similar method
14:08:12 <zzo38> New features in Enhanced CWEB also include the line numbers printing (those are the 373 and 393 on the right side of the page), metamacros, section arguments, various new ways of printing many things, bug fixes, section counting (using @4 code), and make rules (by the use of a third program CSPIDER, which is in addition to CTANGLE and CWEAVE which are the two main programs)
14:32:32 <zzo38> And if you have any additional feature suggestions, I can ocnsider it.
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15:07:07 <CakeProphet> and what about METABASTRACTION METASYNTAX?
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15:13:56 <zzo38> Hello! I am sorry that the time on my computer is a bit off (and when I fix it, it is still a bit off).
15:14:18 <zzo38> What is METABASTRACTION METASYNTAX?
15:14:51 <zzo38> s/ocnsider/consider/
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15:27:07 <zzo38> When we play D&D we often have to remind the DM of various things: that my character is not Batman, Superman, Spiderman, a cockroach, or a human; that Obkwag can speak normally but cannot fly; that Obkwag is present; that my brother's character has afflicted lycanthropy and is wearing a black cloak; that my character and Obkwag both have good alignment; that skill checks normally do not have automatic hit/miss on natural 20/natural 1; ........
15:27:32 <cpressey> zzo38: What edition of D&D do you play?
15:29:07 <zzo38> Nevertheless, the game still works.
15:31:09 <zzo38> I (and my team) can always win because I always do unexpected stuff.
15:32:15 <zzo38> Remarkably, this DM is still good at doing it (even better than most DMs), despite all of this confusion.
15:34:37 <cpressey> zzo38: Out of curiousity, how do you feel about roguelikes? Like, disklike, ... ?
15:34:56 <zzo38> cpressey: I like to play some roguelikes sometimes.
15:35:03 <zzo38> I have written a few.
15:35:32 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP
15:36:40 <cpressey> oh, indeed. I didn't know that. I wrote one once... very large-scale, written in Perl, kind of pushed the memory limits, and I think it might be lost forever (I'll have to dig up those backup cds at some point and see if i can find it.)
15:37:27 <zzo38> Both of these files I posted, I have written in less than a day. The second one has proper instructions but the first one is, part of the game is to figure out how everything works even by yourself!
15:37:40 <CakeProphet> zzo38: I could not honestly tell you what I was talking about.
15:37:48 <CakeProphet> do you have a mechanism for lazy evaluation though?
15:37:57 <cpressey> If I ever wrote a similar one, I'd have to use some kind of external storage management instead of trying to keep everything in in-memory hashes.
15:38:30 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Well, sort of.
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15:39:08 <CakeProphet> zzo38: how can you "sort of" lazily evaluate?
15:39:57 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Do you mean Enhanced CWEB? It would take a while to explain how it works and how that is.
15:40:20 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Well, I know I can "'sort of' lazily evaluate"... a language design I haven't finished yet revolves around it :)
15:40:22 <zzo38> Some things are deferred to other stages.
15:40:24 <CakeProphet> yes, I assume so. Whatever language you were talking about.
15:41:43 <zzo38> There is the preprepreprocessor stage, the prepreprocessor stage, the preprocessor stage...
15:42:00 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB doesn't do the preprocessor stage. That is done by whatever C compiler you are using to compile it with.
15:43:09 <CakeProphet> can I generate an infinite list of fbbonacci numbers ?
15:43:47 <zzo38> I suppose you can make some kind of lazy evaluation using the @$ ... $< command
15:45:05 <zzo38> CakeProphet: As far as I know, you can't do it at the prepreprocessor stage. Although the C codes can do whatever you can write in C, including C preprocessor codes.
15:45:25 <zzo38> Still, once I finished and posted the program, you are welcome to try these things if you want to!
15:46:19 <CakeProphet> I've never worked on a compiler before. I suppose I could design lazy evaluation into a runtime though.
15:47:27 <zzo38> Here is an example of the funny way of writing the beer program in Enhanced CWEB, just for demonstration (it does work, but it isn't how you would normally write any program!): http://sprunge.us/Ldbj
15:50:22 <zzo38> Sort of, except that you can also print out your programs, with index and formatting and everything like that.
15:51:23 <Madk> CakeProphet: Check out Cardinal on the wiki, it's almost done :D
15:52:19 <zzo38> The "normal" way of writing "99 bottles of beer" program in Enhanced CWEB would be not like this, it would be the same way you write it in C, except that you might add a documentation section.
15:53:02 <CakeProphet> zzo38: okay, so I think I found metamacros. 2<Print Next Verse@>
15:53:16 <zzo38> No that is just a named section.
15:53:28 <zzo38> A metamacro is defined by @m and invoked by @-
15:53:29 <CakeProphet> and that "executes" a set of CPP directives in that compilation stage?
15:54:50 <zzo38> A named section is just a way to organize codes, with section numbers and cross references. You can include a named section any number of times in different other sections (although usually only once, but sometimes more than once), it is like a prepreprocessor macro.
15:55:48 <zzo38> @d is just a #define that is global, so it is placed at the top of the file when compiling the program. When printing it out though, it is printed in the same place it is typed in.
15:56:30 <zzo38> In addition, @d allows you to create multiple line #defines without needing to type the \ at the end of each line, it will automatically put them there.
15:57:12 <zzo38> @* starts a titled section, which will be listed in the table of contents.
15:57:28 <CakeProphet> ah... well. I see how the named sections uses define and undef to turn plural on and off. Neat trick. :)
15:57:32 <zzo38> @ (that is, at sign with a space after) is a section that is not listed in the table of contents.
15:58:31 <CakeProphet> is there a sane way to structure data in the preprocessor stage, rather than resorting to C structs?
15:59:59 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Can you give an example so that I can understand more clearly what you want? I think there surely is a way.
16:00:09 <CakeProphet> er... nevermind. I'm going to figure out this program first
16:00:30 <zzo38> But I don't know yet until you tell me more specifically what you might wanted
16:00:59 <CakeProphet> X(on_wall@,br)@ two questions. 1) from what I can tell X only takes on argument, by can you give it two or three? 2) why does on_wall and X have an @ and not br?
16:01:50 <zzo38> The @, is not the same as a comma, it just tells it to make sure to put a space there when printing out the program.
16:01:58 <zzo38> When compiling the program it is the same as a space.
16:02:43 <zzo38> The @; tells it to print it as if there was a semicolon there, but make it invisible; however, it is the same as a space when compiling.
16:03:04 <zzo38> The @ sign always goes with the single character after it.
16:03:48 <zzo38> Typing "X(on_wall br)" will work just as well, but the printing is neater with the extra @, and @; in there.
16:04:54 <zzo38> When writing normal programs, it will normally format nearly everything correctly anyways, so you won't need @, and @; and so on.
16:05:09 <zzo38> Yes, the @, and @; mean nothing semantically. They are only there to make the printout neater.
16:05:28 <zzo38> It is abnormal because it is not the way you would normally write such a program!
16:05:43 <CakeProphet> obviously. I was hoping for something more specific.
16:05:50 <zzo38> But it is good for demonstrating the techniques in case some of them might be more useful in some other programs.
16:06:36 <zzo38> @4 counts the number of times the named section has been used.
16:06:48 <zzo38> So the first time it will be zero, the second time one, the third time will be two, and so on.
16:07:32 <CakeProphet> another question. why does it undefine and then redefine plural immediately afterwards. It seems to me like that would amount to nothing.
16:08:57 <zzo38> That is, it defines it as a blank value, so that it will expand into nothing (this is a standard feature of the C preprocessor).
16:09:12 <zzo38> The #undef is not strictly needed, but some compilers might emit warnings if you do not do it.
16:09:43 <CakeProphet> how can you do comparisons and subtraction in macro-land? Is there another stage that does arithmetic somewhere?
16:10:23 <CakeProphet> I wasn't aware that the C pre-processor could do #if beers==1
16:10:25 <zzo38> No, those are also standard parts of the C preprocessor. The C preprocessor can do arithmetic and comparisons.
16:10:50 <CakeProphet> can a named section pretty much substitute into any part of the program?
16:10:59 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes, any part.
16:11:37 <zzo38> Yes. @c is just an unnamed code section
16:11:46 <zzo38> While @< is a named code section.
16:12:09 <CakeProphet> so wait.. you can put anything in @c then?
16:12:17 <zzo38> The unnamed sections are the ones which are directly entered into the C code seen by the compiler.
16:12:22 <CakeProphet> How does it distinguish between what is C and what is not C?
16:12:40 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes you can put any valid C codes in @c however if you want an at sign in the code, you must put @@ instead
16:12:58 <CakeProphet> I was asking if you could put any CWEB code in a @c section
16:13:46 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes, there are some CWEB codes valid in a @c section (the same ones are valid in a @< section).
16:14:06 <zzo38> However, @4 is useless in an unnamed section (it will always be zero).
16:14:27 <CakeProphet> ...I think I'll leave @m for another day, perhaps? It looks too esoteric.
16:14:50 <CakeProphet> @* comment? or some kind of title section?
16:15:17 <zzo38> @* is a titled section. The title will appear in the table of contents.
16:15:30 <CakeProphet> I'm not really sure I understand the point of the prinout. Builtin documentation of sorts?
16:15:43 <CakeProphet> I thought @ with a space was titled section?
16:15:59 <zzo38> Every section (other than limbo) has up to three parts: Documentation section, definition section, and code section.
16:16:12 <zzo38> Yes, the printout can be used for documentation of sorts
16:17:31 <zzo38> @ with a space is a non-titled section. The text after it is just the documentation part of that section.
16:17:39 <CakeProphet> but I can see that the metamacro is where the magic happens. :)
16:17:53 <zzo38> Any TeX codes are valid in a documentation part.
16:18:07 <CakeProphet> okay. so @* makes a title, and then everything after the first line is docuemtnation until it encounters the next section code.
16:18:18 <zzo38> Yes the metamacro (the @m) is where the real magic happens in this example!
16:18:41 <CakeProphet> too bad it looks like complete gibberish. character-based instructions?
16:19:26 <zzo38> CakeProphet: No, not quite. Everything up to the . is the title. after that it is treated just like a normal documentation section, until the definition part (@d or @r) is reached, the code part (@c or @<...@>=) is reached, or a new section is reached (with @ space or @*)
16:19:28 <Madk> wewt http://floatation.webs.com/Cardinal.zip
16:20:19 <zzo38> The documentation part of a section is the only required part, although it is allowed to be empty. (You can just write "@ @c" to just begin a section of C codes with no documentation)
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16:20:24 <zzo38> @r is a make rule.
16:20:43 <zzo38> They are printed out as typewriter text with an integral sign at the front.
16:21:30 <CakeProphet> can you explain the purpose of the focus on documentation? Just a design choice?
16:21:50 <zzo38> CWEAVE prints them, CTANGLE ignores make rules, and CSPIDER ignores anything other than make rules (that is, not counting the preprepreprocessor (@i @m @-) which are valid everywhere.
16:22:03 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes, sort of like a makefile.
16:22:15 <zzo38> But it is a new way, an improvement of makefiles, a bit.
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16:23:15 <zzo38> @i is tells it to include a file.
16:24:06 <CakeProphet> should I just read some kind of language spec to understand these metamacros?
16:24:11 <zzo38> (At the preprepreprocessor level)
16:24:58 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Not quite yet, but when I post it, just read the corresponding sections in common.dvi hopefully the cross-references and everything else there will help understand it a bit
16:25:06 <CakeProphet> zzo38: hmmm... so could you have used @i instead of #include for stdio? I don't see why not.
16:25:55 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Only if you have a CWEB file for stdio.
16:26:07 <zzo38> Otherwise you can't (and shouldn't).
16:27:04 <zzo38> You normally wouldn't use @i for such things as that, since everything included by @i is also included in the printout.
16:27:05 <CakeProphet> or is it stuff like @@ that needs worrying about?
16:27:56 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Stuff like @@ is one thing. But also, @i includes at the preprepreprocessor stage, the C compiler does not see it. #include is done at the C preprocessor stage, which the C compiler can set defines and so on, have things specific to the platform, and so on.
16:28:28 <zzo38> If you use #include the actual #include line will be printed out, not the contents of the file.
16:29:35 <CakeProphet> I should convince calamari to use Enhanced CWEB instead of C for the low-level OS code. :)
16:29:37 <zzo38> You might, for example, include format definitions or metamacros in a @i include file, or a heading you want printed in every file.
16:30:04 <zzo38> CakeProphet: You can do that! Anything written in Enhanced CWEB can work anytime C is usable.
16:30:18 <zzo38> Regardless of what C compiler is being used.
16:31:12 <CakeProphet> okay, so what I was saying about data structures
16:31:25 <CakeProphet> is basically a way to define data structures that only exist in various processing stages.
16:31:54 <CakeProphet> so you do not have to structure data purely within the C level (structs, unions, etc)
16:33:11 <CakeProphet> but the only data in (pre)+processing is text. So I'm not sure what kinds of structures you could make.
16:33:31 <zzo38> Is something like this what you are talking about? Where you can have "@c typedef struct { @<Elements of |xyzabc|@> } xyzabc;" and then you can defined @<Elements of |xyzabc|@> multiple times, all the definitions will be concatenated and included in that structure.
16:34:25 <zzo38> You can also use metamacros and C preprocessor inside of named sections, to be able to use structured data in multiple ways.
16:34:44 <CakeProphet> I was thinking of a purely compilation stage entity. But I suppose you could arrange it so that you preprocess a C struct as well.
16:35:19 <zzo38> I don't know exactly what you are trying to do.
16:36:37 <CakeProphet> I guess it's not entirely obvious how CWEB structures itself. For example, if I wanted to make a networking library that you could include via @i, that required no knowledge of the C code being substituted. How would you structure that?
16:39:17 <zzo38> If the library is a separate program, it should not generally be written to be included via @i, you would use the normal way of doing that in C. However, you still might use @i to simply add the necessary #include and @r into it, and add in the formatting for any words you wanted formatted specially in the printout (such as if you want them bold, or using Greek letters, etc)
16:40:03 <zzo38> (That is, you might want to format some identifiers in bold, such as names of types created with typedef. For typedefs included in the program already, CWEB will automatically do this.)
16:40:13 <CakeProphet> when you implement libraries in CWEB... you're actually just implementing them in C?
16:40:36 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Yes, mostly. Although you can do it in other ways too, if you want to.
16:41:02 <CakeProphet> I think the more structure you can provide that isn't explicitly C code, the better.
16:42:19 <zzo38> CakeProphet: You can still provide structure that isn't explicitly C code. But if you are writing a library, you would usually make most of it external and dealt with by the C compiler. There are exceptions however, depending on what the library is and how it works.
16:42:27 <zzo38> Named sections is one thing you might use.
16:42:52 <zzo38> For advanced use, metamacros can also be used.
16:43:00 <zzo38> But there are many ways to do it.
16:43:37 <zzo38> You can use metamacros to block off a section so that it won't be included in the printout, if you want to.
16:44:01 * CakeProphet has absolutely no interest in printouts, only in the executing result.
16:44:52 <zzo38> CakeProphet: In that case, you don't need to worry about blocking off sections in that way, then.
16:45:13 <CakeProphet> so is @4 the only sort of pre-processor "state" that exists?
16:45:36 <zzo38> @4 is not a pre-processor state, but a pre-pre-processor state.
16:46:04 <CakeProphet> that's what I meant. I was referring to all stages, and avoiding excess typing. :)
16:46:06 <zzo38> There is also @3 which is a parameter to a named section, and @$ introduces the parameter before transcluding the section.
16:46:36 <zzo38> For example: @$ 42 @<Do something funny@>;
16:46:54 <zzo38> Now inside of the definion of @<Do something funny@> the @3 will expand to 42
16:47:17 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Half the point of CWEB is to produce delicious delicious TeX.
16:47:32 <CakeProphet> I don't understand the point of that, at all.
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16:48:22 <zzo38> Yes, half of the point of CWEB is producing printouts (TeX)!
16:48:27 <zzo38> That half is called CWEAVE.
16:49:28 <zzo38> However, if you have absolutely no interest in printouts, you can still use Enhanced CWEB, you would just use only CTANGLE (and possibly CSPIDER). CWEAVE is the program for making printouts.
16:50:28 <CakeProphet> do you just make printouts of CWEB code... and stare at them?
16:50:58 <pikhq> CakeProphet: You *read* them.
16:51:15 <zzo38> CakeProphet: You also often refer to them for various purposes, including documentation, cross-referencing, it has an index and table of contents, and so on.
16:51:19 <pikhq> Are you familiar with how Knuth makes *books* of his programs?
16:51:25 <zzo38> Just like any book.
16:51:52 <CakeProphet> I know of literate programming, but only what it is.
16:52:44 <CakeProphet> and I'm not really I see a point in literate programming either..
16:53:14 <pikhq> The point of literate programming is to make a program *that people read*.
16:53:23 <pikhq> And... You know nothing about Knuth?
16:53:40 <pikhq> You may know him for writing The Book on algorithms.
16:53:59 <CakeProphet> I mean, I've heard his name. But I'm not very formally educated in programming
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16:54:19 <zzo38> I suppose CWEB can be good for writing a book about algorithms!
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16:55:07 <CakeProphet> I suppose well-documented OS code would be nice. But... why not simply use an external documentation tool?
16:55:40 <pikhq> The point of CWEB is to have a book on *the functioning of the code itself*.
16:56:04 <zzo38> Well, at least I find it easier to document programs when it is CWEB, other people have other opinions. In addition, literate programming also has different uses of different opinions by different people.
16:56:46 <pikhq> And the point of literate programming is to make your program a document that happens to include bits for the sake of the computer.
16:56:47 <zzo38> Generally, the printout of the code and documentation parts of the code is meant to be separate from the user documentation, however it does not necessarily have to be done this way, if you want to do it a different way.
16:57:28 <zzo38> There are many points of literate programming depending on who is doing it! But pikhq's point is the main point it was designed to do.
16:57:39 <CakeProphet> pikhq: I don't think I get quite as teary-eyed on the idea as you do...
16:57:56 <pikhq> CakeProphet: You have not seen it.
16:58:13 <pikhq> CakeProphet: You appear to be missing the sheer beauty that is *code that is meant to be looked at*.
16:58:40 <zzo38> However, that main point is very good if writing a book about computer algorithms, for one thing.
16:58:59 <pikhq> zzo38: WEB was not used for The Art of Computer Programming.
16:59:11 <pikhq> It was, however, used for TeX (the book).
16:59:42 <zzo38> Yes, I know TeX is written in WEB. So, you can make a printout of the program, even.
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17:00:18 <zzo38> Anyways, what it is good for is also a matter of opinion, that can vary, and this is OK, since literate programming can be used for many things.
17:00:37 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Correct, but the metamacro codes is sort of like an esolang, in some ways....
17:01:00 <AnMaster> what was the name of that funky pascal -> C translation thing used for tex? Was it CWEB? Or was it something else
17:01:11 <zzo38> I think it was WEB2C
17:03:18 <CakeProphet> I see the benefit of having integrated documentation
17:03:25 <CakeProphet> I guess the syntax is just kind of... silly.
17:03:54 <CakeProphet> which makes the original source text not very readable at all.
17:05:11 <Madk> I implemented Minimal
17:05:21 <Madk> Now I'm working on Vrejvax :D
17:10:41 <CakeProphet> so I just read the "literate programming" article on Wikipedia
17:10:52 <CakeProphet> and it is basically just a big circlejerk to Knuth.
17:16:57 <cpressey> ("Hah" is oldspeak for "LOL".)
17:18:21 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I haven't read it. What I never understood was the number of people who saw literate programming only as some sort of "separate compilation" thing. Instead of seeing it as, er, a form of literacy.
17:19:07 <cpressey> Er, literacy is not the best word, obviously. A refinement on a mode of communication.
17:19:27 <cpressey> I'm sure there's a term an Arts major would know for what I'm trying to say.
17:20:04 <cpressey> How 'bout "praxis", to pick one almost at random.
17:37:38 <zzo38> Literate programming can be seen as many different things, and used in many different ways. It can be seen as a form of literacy. Or as different things. There are different people. Even one person can see it in multiple ways depending what you are doing!
17:39:26 <zzo38> Here is a screenshot of part of a page of common.dvi so that you can see a bit about how it works: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/cweb2.png Note that the \n overtyped is not that good, it would be better to put "n" inside of another shape such as a circle or diamond, do you know how to make that effect in TeX?
17:40:47 <pikhq> zzo38: Why not just "\n"?
17:42:14 <pikhq> Also, what's with the underscores?
17:42:44 <zzo38> The underscores are like that, it is just how TeX does it, I don't know why exactly
17:43:04 * pikhq shall blame Computer Modern
17:45:47 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB formats things like \x2B and \007 fine in C strings already, though (this is one of the improvements I made)
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17:47:54 <zzo38> If you have read printouts of standard CWEB programs before, you would already notice a lot of differences.
17:55:46 <Madk> cakeprophet: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainCursion
18:05:10 <Slereah> I believe that is when you define a function via itself
18:06:05 <cpressey> I could accept that definition, but BrainCursion doesn't have functions.
18:07:01 <Slereah> For more information on recursion, feel free to consult http://esolangs.org/wiki/Recursion
18:07:13 <cpressey> Or maybe more to the point, BrainCursion doesn't have *definitions*. You can't define functions recursively, if you can't define anything recursively, if you can't define anything.
18:07:34 <cpressey> Slereah: I'm familiar with the concept of recursion, thanks :)
18:09:17 <Slereah> Man, I didn't esolang in forever
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18:13:41 <Madk> cakeprophet: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainCursion
18:13:52 <Madk> seveninchbread: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainCursion
18:13:56 <Madk> CHECK IT OUT MAN
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18:23:29 <Slereah> Also you can just post the link once
18:23:40 <zzo38> I have a strange idea, make a variant of spider solitaire, where the cards that are dealt first want to be removed first before the other cards are removed, basically the cards that are dealt earlier want to be removed earlier than the cards that are dealt later
18:25:27 <zzo38> Another idea is a computer game based on scorpion solitaire card, but there are scorpions on the screen and you have to rearrange them, as well as the walls and cards and other objects
18:27:01 <Slereah> What happens if you get stung
18:27:53 <zzo38> I don't know! These are just ideas I have come up with, I haven't thought of it completely and haven't implemented these games on the computer
18:28:02 <Madk> slereah: The universe ceases to exist
18:28:30 <zzo38> But perhaps if you get stung it is a timer penalty, or something...... I don't know
18:29:13 <Madk> Is there something wrong with me? I just realized I've written 7 esolang interpreters in less than 5 days
18:29:35 <Madk> I think I need help
18:29:44 <zzo38> No that just means you can fast programming
18:30:32 <Madk> I need another idea
18:30:49 <Madk> I scoured through the list of unimplemented languages and did a few of those
18:30:56 <Madk> but I need to come up with another idea
18:31:04 <Madk> maybe something similar to Gravity
18:31:22 <zzo38> I don't know if you can implement some of the ones on my user page, some are probably unimplementable and others are not detailed enough
18:31:34 <Slereah> If you want unimplemented languages, you can do mine!
18:31:42 <zzo38> Network Headache was implemented once, but the implementation is now gone
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18:31:47 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
18:31:55 <Slereah> I tried, but could not do it
18:31:58 <pikhq> Windows... *Does not have a system libc*.
18:32:10 <pikhq> Each *compiler* ships its own libc.
18:34:03 <Madk> selereah: I'm not that math-oriented, I don't understand a thing most of your language descriptions are talking about o.O
18:39:43 <Madk> Lamda + madk = brainhurt
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18:43:18 <cpressey> pikhq: It makes "sense" when you think about it. You're not "supposed" to be developing stuff on Windows, so why would you need a system libc to link to?
18:45:17 <cpressey> ais523: I want to see two languages which are categorical duals of each other. OK, maybe "of each other" is redundant in that sentence, but just ending it at "duals" didn't sound right either.
18:45:43 <ais523> hmm, that would be rather tricky, I imagine
18:45:48 <cpressey> Of course, this needs both languages to be described the same way in category theory.
18:46:15 <cpressey> Just that, I'm sure many different ways of describing them are possible (kind of like the wire-crossing problem in that respect).
18:46:21 <ais523> normally, objects in the category describing a language represent its data types
18:46:41 <ais523> that's why Burro's category only has the one object; not only because it's a group, but also because it only has the one data type
18:46:55 <pikhq> cpressey: Still revolting.
18:47:09 <ais523> wait, Windows has no libc?
18:47:14 <cpressey> And I no longer have my copy of that nice category theory text. Well I do, but it's essentially inaccessible to me. I should maybe get another copy.
18:47:19 <pikhq> Especially when you realise most DLLs are statically linked...
18:47:38 <cpressey> Interesting that there's a copy of libc inside every DLL.
18:48:02 <pikhq> Which means that each DLL has its own *heap*.
18:48:35 <AnMaster> hm... I wonder why thinking of new ways to optimise bf in compilers is so much more interesting than actually implementing those optimisation passes...
18:48:37 <pikhq> This is, like, a pessimal system setup.
18:48:44 <cpressey> Well, maybe. I do suspect heaps are implemented with some Windows API call, or are at least supposed to be.
18:49:08 <pikhq> cpressey: A malloc heap works pretty much the same on Windows as it does on UNIX.
18:49:24 <pikhq> Except that *there's multiple heaps going around* and so APIs need to be designed around that.
18:49:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does it use to replace brk/sbrk then?
18:49:53 <AnMaster> since those would just not work very well with multiple heaps
18:50:10 <pikhq> Well, the Win32 equivalent thereof.
18:50:34 <AnMaster> though having a single one per process would be rather better in most cases.
18:50:54 <pikhq> Yes. It works just fine, but ugggh.
18:51:05 <pikhq> No wonder Windows systems are slow, bloaty, and memory hogs.
18:51:08 <AnMaster> (though I can think of contrived use cases where one per DLL would reduce fragmentation. Note the word "contrived" however!)
18:51:22 <cpressey> ais523: Half-guessing here, but the one object would have... arrows to itself? Representing... the group identities?
18:51:31 <pikhq> And in those contrived cases, the DLLs where its relevant can have their own malloc.
18:51:42 <pikhq> (see: the "memory pool" idiom)
18:51:45 <ais523> cpressey: actually, every single Burro program is an arrow from the object to itself
18:51:58 <ais523> so the identities are there, but so are other programs too
18:52:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes. Memory pools are sometimes useful inside single processes as well. Stuff like a memory pool optimised for allocating cons cells in a lisp implementation comes to mind)
18:52:57 <AnMaster> (to reduce overhead from lots and lots of small objects of same size)
18:54:28 <cpressey> Well, I'm out. Have a good weekend, folks.
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19:14:08 <Phantom_Hoover> So, in a fit of boredom I looked through the tutorial for Agda.
19:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that the type checker works like Santa.
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19:27:40 <Ilari> Heh... now one can construct cat program in that new esolang I'm working on: "Xe180He8O0PW118eeeQQQ118Q1O 08DO".
19:28:17 <Ilari> Actually, that space is don't care, it can be replaced by any 1 unicode codepoint and program will still work.
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19:37:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, so why is that char needed at all?
19:38:49 <Ilari> Because I need to load word to stack that is 14 greater than length of code that loads it. In this case, I needed to burn 5 codepoints and used '1O 08' to burn it.
19:42:20 <Ilari> As '1O 08' is NOP if there is some (x,NAA) value on the top of stack.
19:43:03 <ais523> that esolang seems to have all the worst qualities of machine code, with none of the advantages
19:43:12 <ais523> that's actually pretty impressive
19:43:20 <Ilari> Better 5-codepoint NOP would be '1O 0O'.
19:45:19 <Ilari> Yes, there really is special value NAA (not an address; that can only be present as second component of tuple).
19:46:35 <Ilari> Attempting to load effective address of NAA or write to NAA errors out.
19:47:48 <Ilari> And that code doesn't even use memory operators (2 and 3) or swap memory operators (4, 5, 6 and 7).
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20:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be an interesting thing to do to create an OS that can use an arbitrary language for its lowish-level structure?
20:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Kind of like the kwrap interface where you call syscalls through stdout and get return values from stdin, but less clunky and more general.
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20:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Goodness, the wifi from this sofa is much better than the other one...
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20:39:16 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is it just me, or does kwrap sound like PSOX?
20:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> However, kwrap basically only works on 32-bit Linux, and is very very low-level.
20:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> In any case, the interfaces are too difficult for practical use.
20:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I had something more along the lines of binding an in-language function to some Linux syscalls, with dressing for structs and the like.
20:48:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: incidentally, did that ActiveWorlds computer go anywhere?
20:55:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, haven't touched it in a while, I'm busy doing other stuff
20:57:25 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that the type checker works like Santa. <-- giving presents to nice children once every year?
20:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Even when I can't work out how it could possibly do so.
20:58:42 <oklopol> no actually santa keeps a list
20:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> But for it to have any validity as a theorem prover, it would have to work within some parameters, which seem to include magic
20:59:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, there is no difference between magic and a type system based on sufficiently complicated math
21:00:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, the type system *is* sufficiently complicated math. I wouldn't be surprised if they develop the theory behind it using it.
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21:01:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, "I wouldn't be surprised if they develop the theory behind it using it." <-- eh?
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21:01:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that seems like a strange idea
21:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Agda is a proof assistant, the "proof" part of which comes from its type system.
21:01:53 <AnMaster> and unlikely to give a working type system
21:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The type checker also checks the proofs, along with some other things, like a termination checker.
21:03:16 <AnMaster> so the language is sub-tc then
21:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> All functions have to be provably terminating, which leads to problems with some things.
21:04:45 * oerjan thought well-typedness implied termination in such languages
21:05:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you can have a well-typed division function that doesn't always terminate, I think.
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21:14:24 <Sgeo> I think I just persuaded someone to learn C first instead of C# as a first language
21:15:58 <oklopol> i raped and killed two children today
21:17:24 <Sgeo> Are you trying to compare C as a first language to being raped?
21:17:27 <fizzie> I put csharp-mode.el in my Emacs' autoload path today. Now it's all "ad-handle-definition: `indent-according-to-mode' got redefined" and "Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size" and the tabulator key no longer works.
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21:18:36 <Ilari> Got some sort of implementation of all opcodes (including extension loader opcodes). 1169 of C++ code total.
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21:22:54 <AnMaster> ais523, hm which UK timezone is BST?
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21:23:57 <CakeProphet> the most annoying product of someone learning Java or C# first
21:24:06 <CakeProphet> is that they'll call functions "methods" for a while.
21:24:17 <Sgeo> I said that some might say not to go with C# as a first language to avoide IDE and/or Microsoft dependence
21:24:34 <CakeProphet> IDE dependence mainly. Not so much Microsoft.
21:24:40 <AnMaster> I would suggest python or C as first language to learn
21:25:06 <CakeProphet> Python was my first language learned. I highly recommend
21:25:14 <CakeProphet> you get OO, procedural, and a little bit of functional
21:25:16 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, first language for me was AppleScript XD
21:25:37 <CakeProphet> my first experience with closures and higher-order functions came from Python.
21:25:39 <Sgeo> VB5 was mine. Highly disrecommend. I think I acquired IDE-to-make-GUIs dependence
21:26:24 <CakeProphet> the only thing you don't really encounter in Python is non-significant whitespace and static typing.
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21:26:47 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, python's OO is weird
21:26:49 <CakeProphet> static typing took me a while to... understand. I remember being confused as to why you would ever want to restrict yourself in that way.
21:27:09 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: it's not too weird, really. It's about the same, but there's no arbitrary restrictions like public/private.
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21:27:29 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, there is no encapsulation you mean. Which is rather a bad thing.
21:27:39 <CakeProphet> it makes a lot of sense in the context of a duck typed language.
21:27:52 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, well duck typing doesn't make sense IMO
21:28:04 <CakeProphet> there is one way to declare things private
21:28:10 <CakeProphet> by beginning the name with a single underscore.
21:28:29 -!- Jackson has joined.
21:28:35 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, can't you still call it from outside that class?
21:28:46 <Sgeo> Python actually helped me to understand why it might make sense for private members to not be exposed to child classes
21:28:58 -!- Jackson has changed nick to Guest15287.
21:29:23 <Sgeo> Um, if someone else registered that nick, maybe NickServ renamed you
21:29:23 <AnMaster> I guess services did because someone else registered that nick before
21:29:36 -!- Madk has quit (Read error: No route to host).
21:29:40 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: also, duck typing doesn't make sense?
21:29:45 -!- Guest15287 has quit (Client Quit).
21:30:49 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I think it makes no sense to have it, considering there are lots of better alternatives
21:30:53 -!- Activeworlds has joined.
21:31:34 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: ah, such as interfaces and such?
21:31:39 <Activeworlds> If I'm going to learn C first, I need some free tutorials.... for extreme n00bs
21:32:01 <CakeProphet> Activeworlds: do you have a good IDE? That's an important first step.
21:32:12 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, yes but I was primarily thinking about type classes
21:32:16 * CakeProphet personally doesn't know of any C tutorials.
21:32:30 -!- Madk has joined.
21:32:52 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: well, in Python typeclasses would make sense. For the language Python is, duck typing makes the most sense.
21:32:59 <AnMaster> so probably not the best channel to ask in
21:33:11 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I asked Activeworlds to come here because of the discussion about first languages
21:33:20 <Madk> FILTH IS ALMOST TO FRUITITION :D
21:33:25 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: C is a esolang what are you talking about?
21:33:37 <Madk> C is not an esolang :?
21:34:23 <Sgeo> Scheme's syntax is also utterly different from any other non-Lisp language
21:34:49 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: well, I don't know. I suppose you could work typeclasses into Python. The thing with Python is that EVERYTHING should be represented as data somewhere. So if you have a way to declare typeclass instances, you need to be able to store that information on the class itself somewhere.
21:35:18 <CakeProphet> similar to __dict__, __bases__, __mro__, etc
21:35:53 <CakeProphet> I'd say being highly reflective is something Python got right.
21:35:56 <Sgeo> Activeworlds, is the goal to help with the project, or just to learn programming?
21:36:27 <CakeProphet> Activeworlds: I personally don't mind helping you learn C. We talk about all sorts of crazy things so I don't really see it as being off-topic or anything.
21:37:33 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, __slots__ is another nasty hack
21:37:39 <AnMaster> that mode should be the default
21:38:09 <Activeworlds> My most prominent goal is to assist with the project
21:38:47 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: perhaps it should. My traditional Pythonista sense disagrees, with me. But I have no way to defend that position. :P
21:38:58 <Activeworlds> I was going to start in C#, but I've been told by more than just Sgeo that it is very Microsoft dependent and shouldnt be a first language
21:39:20 <AnMaster> Sgeo, why are you using C# for anything?
21:39:30 <Sgeo> It wasn't my decision
21:39:33 <CakeProphet> I have a friend who started with C#, and he seems to be doing fine with other languages. Granted, the only other language he's looked at is Java...
21:39:46 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, python currently seems rather tricky to statically compile in an efficient way
21:39:47 <CakeProphet> but he did complain about Eclipse in comparison to Visual Studio
21:40:19 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: yes, at the expense of many other nice things that Python can do at runtime. Things that are actually used in practical programs, as well.
21:40:43 <Sgeo> What does py2exe do? Bundle an interpreter?
21:41:32 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: but I do agree, /syntax/ support for slots would make it far less ugly. Maybe, you know, a way to declare variables in a given scope
21:42:00 <CakeProphet> but adding syntax to Python is apparently sacrilege.
21:42:08 <Madk> I finished my filth interpreter coding
21:42:54 <Sgeo> If the goal is to help on the project, C# probably isn't such a terrible first language, as long as .. hmm
21:43:15 <CakeProphet> I really don't think learning C# will cripple you in the future, honestly
21:43:32 <CakeProphet> not if you strive to be an excellent programmer (which is a matter of choice and I suppose talent)
21:43:59 <CakeProphet> I mean, I came out from Python alright, didn't I? :)
21:44:06 <Madk> time to try and run the hello world example
21:44:15 <Madk> hopefully it works :|
21:44:15 <AnMaster> I think that the good bits of OO is just syntax sugar. The bad bits are just a bad idea
21:44:27 <Madk> it's stinking complex
21:44:34 <ais523> AnMaster: BST is daylight-saving, UTC+1
21:44:42 <ais523> normal is GMT, UTC+0 with marginally different lea second rules
21:44:48 <oerjan> "Our system is exactly equivalent to the traditional axiom system in most logic textbooks but has the advantage of being easy to manipulate with a computer program."
21:44:53 <Sgeo> I don't think I came out from VB5 alright
21:44:59 <AnMaster> ais523, why is that same as date -u then?
21:45:02 <Sgeo> I am GUItally disabled
21:45:04 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: I'd be interested in drafting up a language with prototype OO and composable objects. :)
21:45:10 <Madk> doesn't work D;
21:45:17 <Madk> hope it's an easy fix :/
21:45:39 <Activeworlds> Sgeo... maybe someone here is willing to help in our project?
21:45:42 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: ah, then perhaps VB5 is an exception to my statement. Understandably.
21:46:06 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: wouldn't know where to start. Someone else (probably alise) would claim to know exactly what to do and that I was doing everything completely wrong.
21:46:09 <Madk> activeworlds: what is your project?
21:46:38 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, but alise always claims that about stuff he didn't do himself.
21:47:04 <CakeProphet> this is true. But perhaps he WOULD have a good idea, and I should consult this people with their good ideas on composable objects. :)
21:47:13 <Sgeo> Consensus seems to agree with alise wrt PSOX
21:47:32 <Madk> sgeo: what kind?
21:47:44 <Madk> and what are you looking for help to do, exactly
21:47:51 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, well sure but don't let him do it himself. Then he will get stalled trying to think of a name for it
21:48:10 <CakeProphet> Activeworlds: unfortunately I'm working on my own game projects. Two actually: a text-based RP-centered game for my own enjoyment, and an Android game app that I intend to make money off of.
21:48:43 <CakeProphet> Activeworlds: but I suppose I could help in small amounts.
21:48:48 <AnMaster> I'm fairly uninterested in coding games personally
21:49:09 <CakeProphet> there's nothing theoretically interesting. But it's fun to program. :)
21:49:29 <oklopol> game programming can be theoretically interesting if you make interesting games
21:49:52 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: is C# required? I'm fine with it, just wondering. Haskell is my language of choice these days. I assume you're still working off of that library correct?
21:51:08 <CakeProphet> oklopol: a game with TIME-STRETCH PROJECTILE puzzles?
21:51:23 <CakeProphet> I think I've already told everyone about this.
21:51:36 <Sgeo> Yeah, it's C#, although I'd have no problem if you were to, say, add in a bit of F# (I really want to learn F# I think). By "that library". you mean?
21:52:05 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: eh, I really DONT want to learn F# actually. But I base this on blind prejudice and brief glancing of source and a wikipedia article.
21:52:11 <oklopol> my interest in game design lies in designing impossible controls and learning to use them
21:52:20 <oklopol> for instance my gravity based games
21:52:21 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: the library written in C# that requires you to use C#/.NET
21:52:45 <oklopol> flipping gravity on/off and... another gravity based thing that i leave as a puzzle to ppl usually
21:52:48 <Sgeo> Well, there's a C SDK that the .NET stuff is a wrapper for, actually
21:52:50 <CakeProphet> I'm definitely interested in physics manipulation as a puzzle element.
21:53:05 <Sgeo> But I don't think there's a nice way to use both
21:53:06 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: ah, so there's bits that could be hacked in C?
21:53:32 <oklopol> i have a game where the only movement is to flip gravity, but it's just a ball jumping on polygons, and the level editor is unpublished so you'll just do the same level forever :P
21:53:33 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, well, if you fiddled with the .. I have no clue how C interoperability works in .NET
21:53:55 * CakeProphet has gotten particularly good at concurrency as of late.
21:54:08 <Sgeo> Single-threaded, with a custom-made scheduler to schedule things to occur at later times
21:54:35 <Sgeo> Well, the SDK is apparently not thread-safe
21:55:06 <CakeProphet> depends in what way. With the right concurrency design you can ignore that.
21:56:28 <CakeProphet> oklopol: hmmm, I was thinking of ways I could manipulate gravity in my game, but it will get tricky since I'm using sprite-based graphics.
21:56:42 <Sgeo> I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to concurrency stuff. Would that design just be one thread that interacts with the SDK, and other threads pass messages?
21:57:43 <CakeProphet> more or less. message-passing is the simplest way to get it right without stuff like STM (which really only has good support in Haskell, though there are libraries for other langs)
21:58:29 <Madk> I wanted more information, but I've g2g now
21:58:55 -!- Madk has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:59:44 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'd imagine, but not sure, that the reason it's not thread-safe is that arguments are often passed by setting attributes
21:59:57 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: I find the easiest way to think about concurrency is in terms of atomic operations.
22:00:32 <Sgeo> To set a position, you might call aw_int_set(AW_MY_X, 0); aw_int_set(AW_MY_Y, 0); aw_int_set(AW_MY_Z, 0); aw_state_change();
22:00:41 <Sgeo> /Note: Actual names used in the SDK may differ
22:00:50 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: basically, what appears to occur as one action to other threads.
22:00:54 -!- alise has joined.
22:01:48 <alise> Tetration, constellation, inferior blaxploitative municipal irrigation! All these thoughts occurred to Bjorn at roughly the same time.
22:04:00 <alise> A healthy disregard for public and private safety was what had landed him the job as Anti-Safety Inspector with the County Jail's Holy Roman Catholic Church ... and he wasn't about to give up his free lunch without a fight.
22:06:01 <alise> However, as Heinlein was his opponent, he was soon dissuaded of even any notion of a "free lunch" and immediately signed up with the National Libertarian Register.
22:07:40 <CakeProphet> oklopol: so element of variety in my game comes from the character's gun. It's a metroid-inspired game, but I intend to have interesting projectiles that are used in puzzles. I'm wondering what sort of puzzles could arise from having an area-of-effect gravity projectile.
22:07:45 <alise> The NLR, as all the drug-abusing, sex-addicted kids were calling it in those days, was designed, specifically and expressly, for targeting and eliminating libertarians; that way, they could consider themselves martyrs, and the government could be rid of a rather pesky bunch of irritations. As long as the government kept this both an official "secret" and blabbed about it at every opportunity, this satisfied most everyone.
22:07:53 <CakeProphet> would it increase or decrease gravity. or reverse direction? hmmm...
22:07:53 <Sgeo> Activeworlds, hm?
22:07:56 <alise> Activeworlds: And you are?
22:08:00 <alise> Presumably some friend of Sgeo.
22:08:19 <alise> In which case I advise you to not advise me to stfu.
22:08:51 <alise> fungot fungot fungot
22:08:54 <alise> fungot isn't here.
22:09:10 <alise> FIZZIE PANIC PANIC PANIC
22:09:30 <Sgeo> Activeworlds, alise is a regular here
22:09:50 <Sgeo> Just because e's not being "on-topic"ish right now [neither are we really] doesn't mean anything
22:10:20 <CakeProphet> this is essentially a general-purpose programming community, with an affinity towards the strange. :)
22:10:28 <alise> Activeworlds: because i've been here for a long time, because I have a deep interest in esolangs and computer science, because I am very good friends with many people here
22:10:41 <alise> and because dammit I don't need to give you a reason.
22:10:44 <Activeworlds> Thank you alise :) That's all i wanted to know
22:10:54 <alise> Well that was easier than I expected. :p
22:11:25 <alise> CakeProphet: Even ais523, the strongest defender of on-topicity, has all but given up. ;)
22:11:26 <ais523> !haskell putStrLn "test"
22:11:32 <ais523> but yes, EgoBot isn't here
22:11:50 <ais523> still, the channel may as well not exist if there isn't on-topic conversation
22:12:03 -!- augur has joined.
22:12:09 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
22:12:12 -!- fizzie has joined.
22:12:19 <CakeProphet> ais523: there often is on-topic conversation though
22:12:23 <alise> ais523: We're basically a group of friends. Is socialisation pointless?
22:12:31 <alise> Besides, we're bound together by a strong interest in CS-y stuff.
22:12:36 <alise> That drives our conversation.
22:12:39 <alise> Compare us to anywhere else.
22:12:50 <ais523> but I find that like-minded people tend to come across each other anyway, on the Internet
22:13:05 <CakeProphet> I would compare #esoteric to a non-language-specific version of #haskell :)
22:13:06 <alise> This is that place.
22:13:18 <alise> CakeProphet: #esoteric is more intelligent than #haskell nowadays.
22:13:24 <alise> didn't use to be the case.
22:13:41 <CakeProphet> alise: generally. Everytime I ask a question on #haskell I generally just get told that I should do it their way. :)
22:13:47 <CakeProphet> which is not answering my question at all.
22:13:53 <Sgeo> Activeworlds, I've probably mentioned it incessantly
22:13:54 <Gregor-P> I like carrot sticks. And spelling!
22:14:01 -!- fungot has joined.
22:14:03 <Sgeo> And have been accused of necrophilia
22:14:27 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: do you prefer your corpses fresh or somewhat touched by rigor mortis?
22:14:43 <alise> Activeworlds: There's a general channel-wide groan every time Active Worlds is mentioned (always by Sgeo).
22:14:56 <alise> But it's all right, we tolerate necrophiliacs. Uh, to a point.
22:15:10 <ais523> it's not nearly as bad as the channel-wide groan that comes up when anyone mentions PSOX
22:15:13 <ais523> it used to be always Sgeo
22:15:17 <ais523> but nowadays it's more other people being ironic
22:15:44 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to GroanMaster.
22:16:15 <alise> ais523: at least PSOX is /amusing/
22:16:17 <Activeworlds> Well, if you just tried the software, a groan wouldn't be neccisary :)
22:16:35 -!- ais523 has changed nick to PSOX.
22:17:05 <Ilari> Used some macroing to reduce number of lines. Now there are 825 C++ code lines total...
22:17:14 <GroanMaster> Many people here use Linux, not sure how well AW works in WINE.
22:17:18 -!- PSOX has changed nick to ais523.
22:18:03 <ais523> but you can use "POSIX-based OSes" if you want to include the entire set
22:18:18 <GroanMaster> I did try to get people here interested in AW by mentioning the computer I'm planning on building
22:18:27 -!- relet has joined.
22:19:12 <ais523> it's become a meme in this channel, thus I mentally filter it out
22:19:15 <ais523> like I do with most other memes
22:19:35 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's become a meme in this channel, thus I mentally filter it out <-- what became a meme?
22:19:39 <CakeProphet> though the interface is somewhat atrocious.
22:19:43 <GroanMaster> We just decided to start using it yesterday
22:19:44 <ais523> AnMaster: Active Worlds
22:19:48 <Ilari> Of that, 445 lines are part of core, 9 lines are part of extensions and 371 lines are part of standard opcode implementations.
22:19:55 <ais523> it's only Activeworlds' nick that's re-inspired debate
22:20:09 <ais523> I suppose it must be a really disconcerting feeling to join a channel and discover you're already an inside joke there
22:22:04 <alise> <Activeworlds> Well, if you just tried the software, a groan wouldn't be neccisary :)
22:22:35 <alise> Actually it would be. I'm almost entirely certain I won't be a fan of some mediocre 3D chatroom "with benefits" from god knows how far back.
22:22:52 <Ilari> Of those 825 lines of C++ code that is first implementation of my new esolang.
22:23:13 <Activeworlds> Yea, I'm pretty sure it's not a mediocre 3d chatroom
22:23:17 <CakeProphet> alise: would you be a fan of a text-based chatroom "with benefits" written in concurrent Haskell? :)
22:23:20 <alise> Activeworlds: Hey, with benefits.
22:23:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, it was just that there was nothing else said by you in the last screen
22:23:24 <alise> Activeworlds: It has OBJECTS.
22:23:32 <alise> CakeProphet: Moreso than Active Worlds.
22:23:52 <CakeProphet> though one day I might give it hack and slash code
22:24:14 <ais523> CakeProphet: as in NetHack and Slash'EM's precursors?
22:24:39 <CakeProphet> ais523: well, no. More like a MUSH or an RP MUd if you've ever played one
22:25:11 <CakeProphet> because there is code support for the gameplay.... it's just that the gameplay doesn't require much code support in the first place. It's just a bunch of people writing collaborative improv fiction of a sort.
22:25:25 <Activeworlds> You judge and make benighted assumptions of something you know nothing of...
22:25:41 <CakeProphet> Activeworlds: he is likely trolling you. I can only assume.
22:26:00 <Activeworlds> I can understand if you spent a little time in AW, then came back and told people how much you hated it. Now that, that, I'd respect :)
22:26:26 <ais523> on IRC, it's often hard to distinguish trolling from legit conversation
22:26:27 <alise> Activeworlds: Jeez; a bit sensitive about AW, aren't we?
22:26:43 <alise> Maybe I'd try out Active Worlds if I didn't have to (a) pay and (b) use Windows.
22:26:47 <CakeProphet> actually a sophisticated combat system in a concurrent environment would be quite a challenge. I now have a new goal for this project. To give it combat/RPG elements.
22:26:49 <alise> and (c) abandon my dignity.
22:27:05 <alise> But if I try I won't get the full experience!
22:27:19 <GroanMaster> The stuff you make might be destroyed by others
22:27:41 <alise> See, that would be emotionally scarring.
22:28:02 <GroanMaster> Activeworlds, there are worlds that use Guardbot these days?
22:28:03 <Activeworlds> And, who you decide to bring to your creations
22:28:47 <CakeProphet> question... can I roleplay my necrophiliac fantasies in this world?
22:28:57 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> alise: would you be a fan of a text-based chatroom "with benefits" written in concurrent Haskell? :) <-- benefits? Are we talking about a MUD or MOO?
22:29:03 <CakeProphet> I'm also a closet furry. do you support anthropomorphic characters?
22:29:13 <Activeworlds> There are plenty of worlds there that you can roleplay any fantasy you'd like
22:29:20 <alise> I'm secretly a 1,000,000-foot penis.
22:29:21 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, how can you be a closet <anything> when you just announced it?
22:29:26 <alise> Can this be represented accurately in-world?
22:29:34 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: neither. I just use MUD as a general-purpose term for all online text-based games. It is certainly MOO-inspired in system though.
22:29:35 <alise> AnMaster: No, we're talking about a chatroom that has sex with you.
22:29:44 <Activeworlds> The worlds are tagged with a rating (chosen by the world owner) from G, PG, PG-13, R, to X
22:30:03 <GroanMaster> CakeProphet, I don't believe Custom AVs can be nonhuman, but worlds can offer a list of avatars that can be pretty much anything
22:30:05 <AnMaster> alise, that is one weird fetishism!
22:30:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:30:15 -!- augur has joined.
22:30:17 <alise> The word is "fetish".
22:30:29 <AnMaster> alise, so why does aspell accept that word I used above
22:30:41 <CakeProphet> fetishism is also a word but with a different meaning.
22:31:02 <CakeProphet> fetishism, to me, refers to the activity of such.
22:31:07 <Activeworlds> And, you don't always have to pay... I haven't payed for my citizenship in....... Well, atleast 4 years
22:31:52 <alise> Activeworlds: I do not see much, or rather, any point, in trying something I know that I will almost certainly not like, when I could do things I am pretty sure I will like
22:32:03 <GroanMaster> Activeworlds, I knew it was for free recently due to the project
22:32:07 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: I borrow the idea of context-sensitive commands from MOO. So the lookup starts in your inventory, then to the room, then to the area, then to the player.
22:32:30 <Activeworlds> Alise, that's fine... Just don't call it a mediocre 3d chatroom lol... Because it's far from that
22:32:34 <CakeProphet> so items, for example, can unlock specific commands.
22:32:56 <alise> Activeworlds: Okay; a rubbish 3D chatroom. (Trolling. Trolling. Pitchforks not necessary. Well, yet.)
22:32:58 <GroanMaster> It's a mediocre 3d chatroom that's programmable with external programs, and somewhat scriptable in-world
22:32:59 <Activeworlds> Groanmaster (i feel weird calling u that) , but anyways, bluebean payed for this citizen for years
22:33:17 -!- GroanMaster has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:33:33 -!- Activeworlds has left (?).
22:33:54 <alise> Whoops, did I scare him away?
22:34:33 -!- MrJackson_ has joined.
22:34:54 <Sgeo> Better way to change your name: /nick newname
22:35:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: you could be a closet cleaner
22:35:42 <MrJackson_> I'm still not sure if I want to learn C or C sharp
22:36:08 <MrJackson_> Because if i learn C, there's no reason for me to implement that knowledge into AW
22:36:30 <MrJackson_> Sure, it's good for outside programming, but I doubt I'll be doing much of that right now
22:36:53 <Ilari> Implemented "is stack empty" and "enumerate extension instructions" operations. 18 more lines total (6 more lines core, 12 more lines in standard opcode implementations).
22:36:53 * oerjan wonders if there's a C flat
22:38:06 <alise> MrJackson_: C# is basically terrible, so, not that.
22:38:22 * oerjan goes to check where in the alphabet madk has placed his filth
22:38:25 <alise> Sgeo will probably object at this point but more here can object to his objections :)
22:38:54 <Sgeo> MrJackson_, you should note that alise is very opinionated in these sorts of things. Not that I necessarily disagree with him, although there is quite a bit of niceness to C#
22:39:05 <Sgeo> It's probably one of the nicer business-level languages
22:39:08 <oerjan> alise: hey, it has monads, almost
22:39:11 <alise> MrJackson_: I'm a grumpy son of a bitch.
22:39:22 <alise> But yeah, C# is terrible and that's no trolling.
22:39:23 <Sgeo> But alise is opposed to business-related programming, so
22:39:27 <alise> oerjan: yeah but have you /seen/ their syntax?
22:39:30 <alise> Sgeo: hey, no i'm not
22:39:37 <alise> I just don't recommend the job of 9-to-5 programmer to anyone
22:39:43 <CakeProphet> alise: I would actually suport Sgeo in a defense of C#.
22:39:51 <oerjan> alise: i've sort of heard it's sort of SQL based
22:39:52 <alise> Yes, but you're the only two crazies here who like C#.
22:39:58 <alise> oerjan: yeah. it's /awful/
22:39:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, by the way. The horrible colors in the "color matrix" ufraw selection for fcam were the result of a tiff-writing bug; something to do with writing rationals.
22:40:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:40:04 <alise> seriously, LINQ queries are either trivial or hideous.
22:40:11 <alise> Anyway, pikhq rivals me as far as opinionatedness goes...
22:40:23 <ais523> I'm disappointed by C#
22:40:36 <ais523> it feels like an initially sane language that contracted C++ syndrome
22:40:40 <Sgeo> C#: It's better than Java! (TM)
22:40:42 <fizzie> ais523: Perhaps you should scold it.
22:41:12 <alise> Mouse shit: It's better than dog shit!
22:41:14 <pikhq> alise: What's this about opinions?
22:41:39 <oerjan> argh wth madk is completely overrunning the wiki :D
22:41:40 <alise> pikhq: They stink!
22:41:50 <alise> oerjan: IEP syndrone.
22:41:52 <pikhq> Also: LINQ queries are annoying because, frankly, do notation is a better sugar for monads than monad comprehensions.
22:41:57 <alise> Initial Esolanger Prolificity syndrome.
22:42:00 <Sgeo> ais523, C++ syndrome being a glut of features?
22:42:13 <Sgeo> erm, I should look up "glut"
22:42:17 <alise> C++ syndrome, n. the syndrome whereby a language sucks.
22:42:18 <pikhq> (in general; in specific cases, monad comprehensions would be *quite* nice.)
22:42:25 <ais523> alise: it's a specific reason for sucking, to be fair
22:42:28 <MrJackson_> Sgeo: can't i just like, reverse engineer our bot to learn?
22:42:33 <ais523> there are many different ways in which a language can suck
22:42:44 <pikhq> C++ syndrome, n. Removing the good from a language entirely by adding things to it.
22:42:48 <alise> At least, not if Sgeo's speeches about the Other Coder are anything to go by.
22:42:51 <ais523> but in the case of C++ and C#, it's due to adding a whole load of features that could be potentially useful, but are just too much when together
22:42:59 <alise> If they are anything to go by, then that will just cause brain damage (moreso than C# itself).
22:43:54 <ais523> Java may suck too, but it doesn't have C++ syndrome
22:44:09 <ais523> its main issue is NIH-ness, both in terms of code and in terms of programming paradigms
22:44:16 <ais523> everything has to be made to fit The Java Way
22:44:20 <pikhq> It has its own, unique syndromes.
22:44:26 <MrJackson_> I just noticed there's a lot of opinion when it comes to programming
22:44:26 <alise> Java has Java syndrome.
22:44:39 <Sgeo> My main issue with Java is its lack of first-class functions
22:44:40 <pikhq> *Most* of the suck is in the damned library designs, to be honest. The damned things are designed by crack-smoking-monkeys.
22:44:42 <alise> public static void Java implements JavaSyndrome (okay, yeah, this isn't valid).
22:44:58 <ais523> alise: you're confusing functions and classes
22:45:00 <alise> MrJackson_: Only know that we're correct. Even when we disagree!
22:45:02 <alise> ais523: Yeah, I know.
22:45:06 <Sgeo> Then again, I have little to no Java experience
22:45:12 <ais523> alise: sorry, reflex of someone who teaches Java for a living
22:45:14 <alise> We tend to be a bit old-fashioned here, I Guess.
22:45:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: Being added!
22:45:20 <alise> Except not really.
22:45:31 <ais523> teaching people to avoid their mistakes reflexively saves thinking time for other things
22:45:34 <pikhq> MrJackson_: For what purpose?
22:45:39 <Sgeo> Unless you want to help on the project immediately..
22:45:42 <ais523> MrJackson_: C is a good language for some things
22:45:45 <alise> pikhq: first language
22:45:47 <ais523> but for many programs, it's hilariously inappropriate
22:45:50 <alise> MrJackson_: Or, wait, can I suggest HASKELL?
22:45:55 <ais523> C as a first language, that's not terrible
22:46:07 <alise> MrJackson_: You should totally learn Haskell. It's EASY yet PRACTICAL!
22:46:08 <Sgeo> But the goal is to eventually work on a C# project
22:46:12 <MrJackson_> For the purpose of learning basics, and having a basis to programming skills
22:46:14 <alise> Sgeo: THEY BOTH HAVE MONADS.
22:46:26 <pikhq> alise: Okay, C's not a terrible choice for that. It has many limitations and all that, but it at least doesn't get you a lot of very poor misconceptions about how machines work.
22:46:32 <MrJackson_> Yes, the goal IS to eventually work on a C# project
22:46:55 <ais523> I think people's first languages should be a high-level CSy one and a low-level one
22:47:18 <pikhq> Haskell's also a good choice, but only because you'll disdain almost all other languages.
22:47:29 <alise> I don't think I'm going to convince MrJackson_ to learn Haskell. And god knows why!
22:47:34 <CakeProphet> alise: at least we can agree that Haskell is awesome.
22:47:51 <alise> CakeProphet: Well ... it's not quite theoretical enough ...
22:47:54 <Sgeo> How many people have learned Haskell as a first language?
22:47:55 <Ilari> Other fun properties of my new esolang: LF is codepoint just like anything else and it doesn't map to anything valid. As consequence, falling off line causes program to crash and linefeeds are included in jump offsets.
22:47:56 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you learnt just one first language, that an ML variant would be a good idea
22:48:18 <ais523> alise: why? I'm interested in your reasoning
22:48:23 <alise> dealing with functional organisation /while/ confusing side-effects around is /not/ a good idea for a first-time programmer
22:48:28 <alise> ML is very good for getting functional shit Done, yes.
22:48:33 <alise> but as a first language, it'll only confuse.
22:48:46 <ais523> the idea is to not mix paradigms until you know the two paradigms individually?
22:48:51 <alise> <Sgeo> How many people have learned Haskell as a first language?
22:48:54 <alise> My friend, possibly.
22:49:00 <alise> He's expressed an interest.
22:49:08 <alise> ais523: I think so.
22:49:13 <ais523> on my Electronic Engineering course, they tought asm and C simultaneously as first languages
22:49:17 <ais523> asm again and Java the next year
22:49:23 <ais523> then MATLAB the year after that
22:49:25 <alise> ais523: Otherwise you'll actually develop "functimperative programming" in your head, and that can only be painful.
22:49:28 <ais523> err, yes, thanks for the correction
22:49:54 <Ilari> Bizarre instructions: '#': Find next LF in program and jump to one instruction after that.
22:49:55 <ais523> asm+C is not a bad combo, although it's rather low-level
22:50:06 <Sgeo> Going from Haskell straight to C# might be a bad idea
22:50:17 <pikhq> Actually, if you've got a sane machine language in place, assembly would probably make a decent introduction.
22:50:20 <alise> Assembly is a bit pointlses really. x86 at least.
22:50:25 <alise> Theoretical RISC, maybe.
22:50:31 <alise> Big ball of internal mud... naw.
22:50:32 <pikhq> (No to modern x86. Just NOOOOOOO...)
22:50:32 <ais523> Sgeo: hmm; you'd handle C# just fine, but nobody else would be able to read the resulting code
22:50:53 <pikhq> MMIX or MIPS or something.
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22:50:58 <ais523> we were taught PIC16F87 asm, rather than x86 asm
22:51:05 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, by the way. The horrible colors in the "color matrix" ufraw selection for fcam were the result of a tiff-writing bug; something to do with writing rationals. <-- hm okay. But what about that count == 1 thing. Got any reply to it?
22:52:08 <ais523> PIC16F87 asm is pretty simple, in that all commands take 4 cycles except for jumps which always take 8, and conditional skip instructions which take 8 if they skip (they're implemented by replacing the next instruction in the pipeline with a NOP)
22:52:23 <Ilari> (that instruction is useful for putting shellbang in program).
22:52:24 <ais523> also, it has around 400 registers, but no RAM, which /is/ unusual
22:53:09 <ais523> 1-byte registers, that is
22:53:17 <pikhq> ais523: How very... Von Neumann.
22:53:24 <ais523> yes, the code's in ROM
22:53:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: I got another dismissive reply; but maybe third time's the charm. (This time he claimed that it's not a problem because SubIFD fields are written with type 4 -- unsigned long -- instead of 13 -- ifd offset -- even though I had just explained my "camera" uses type 13 there.
22:53:38 <ais523> many of the registers are memory-mapped to something or other
22:53:52 <ais523> err, I always get those two muddled
22:54:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe fcam is doing it wrong
22:54:23 <fizzie> It's not part of any real spec, that's the problem.
22:55:43 <fizzie> There's one tech note from Adobe saying that SubIFD field is "type 4 or type 13, but type 13 is peferred", so I'd say fcam is more correct than not; but I guess many (most?) use type 4 still.
22:55:52 <alise> this laptop is awesome
22:56:20 <fizzie> I might have more luck in convincing the fcam folks to work-around dcraw brokenness, though; I left a note in the forums a moment ago.
22:56:32 <alise> so I'm writing a little thing for expressing infinitely detailed images in haskell
22:56:46 <alise> i.e. an image as R^2 -> N^3
22:57:23 <alise> should it be R, i.e. infinitely big as well as infinitely detailed, or [0,1]?
22:57:54 <fizzie> And as an aside, the bugtracker is readable without logins (though empty); for some reason the fcam homepage link to it is to "add an issue" page which causes the "you need to login" reply, not the main issue-tracker page.
22:59:45 <alise> wtf, ubuntu's haskell-mode has no indentation
23:00:07 <ais523> tab is an indent cycle, Python-style
23:00:13 <ais523> but it's buggy enough that it's more confusing than useful
23:00:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm did you mention that tech note to the dcraw guy?
23:01:05 <alise> ais523: it's not buggy
23:01:10 <alise> haskell is complicated
23:01:16 <ais523> alise: well, it parses Haskell incorrectly
23:01:16 <alise> ais523: i mean the haskell-mode package in ubuntu
23:01:18 <alise> lacks the proper mode
23:01:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, twice, but he didn't comment on it. Both replies I have got have contained a couple of paragraphs of general complaining about stupid file formats. :p
23:02:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, ouch. Why does this remind me of that guy who wrote the Ion window manager.
23:02:59 <AnMaster> and it is such an easy fix too... sigh
23:03:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you include your patch btw?
23:04:42 <alise> pikhq: Ever get Minion working?
23:04:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:58 <pikhq> alise: Minion? No.
23:05:08 -!- augur has joined.
23:05:09 <alise> Adobe Reader not have it?
23:05:19 <fizzie> The single-char fix I had might break other files, if he's currently relying on the "tiff_get seeks to the ifd automatically" behaviour. Some cameras put MakerNotes-type data into tiff ifd directories pointed by nonstandard private fields with type 13, and in those cases probably count==1 and his code expects the automatic seek.
23:05:28 <pikhq> I don't recall why I stopped working on it.
23:06:22 <fizzie> Adobe have that official freeware "DNG Converter" tool (win/osx); I guess it might well use type 4 too, and it's a sort of a "reference implementation", or at least close. (I haven't verified what it does.)
23:06:56 <pikhq> But I do have the OTF font...
23:07:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:07:42 -!- augur has joined.
23:08:36 <alise> pikhq: Well go on then.
23:08:47 <alise> http://lglinux.blogspot.com/2007/09/myriad-and-minion-for-latex.html
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23:15:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hah, crazy. The garage.maemo.org forums send a email copy of all posts; but someone must've gotten some arguments in the wrong order, because the copy was sent with "From: [my maemo.org account email]" and "To: noreply@garage.maemo.org", and what I finally got was a "noreply: no such user" bounce.
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23:17:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah. I wonder if that affects all users. If so it ought to be fixed quickly
23:19:47 <fizzie> I guess I'll wait and see if it happens again, before complaining anywhere.
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23:22:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: about your thing about well-typed functions in Agda being strongly normalising.
23:23:46 <Phantom_Hoover> They needn't be, since a function can refer to itself.
23:25:12 <ais523> btw, any thoughts on why Microsoft have bought a licence to ARM?
23:25:26 <ais523> that is, a license that lets them manufacture modified versions of the things themselves
23:25:34 <ais523> rather than just buying a bunch of chips, like most people do
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23:26:25 <fizzie> ais523: "Research and development purposes", wasn't that the official excuse?
23:26:41 <ais523> I don't see why they need an "excuse"
23:27:01 <ais523> even so, I don't get why you'd get that sort of license just for research, they probably have something else in mind
23:27:18 <fizzie> Because the real reason is something sinister.
23:27:31 <ais523> that seems... ridiculous
23:27:40 <ais523> given that the ARM technology is not very suited to the x86 instruction set
23:28:17 <fizzie> "With closer access to the ARM technology we will be able to enhance our research and development activities for ARM-based products."
23:28:25 <alise> ais523: The ONLY Microsoft-approved RAM solution.
23:28:29 <alise> With Windows(R) technology.
23:28:59 <ais523> hmm, if you want something sinister: perhaps they're trying to invent a new sort of Trusted Computing chip
23:29:05 <ais523> and want something cheap and TC to base it on, like ARM
23:29:12 <AnMaster> alise, RAM? what does memory have to do with it?
23:29:49 <augur> anyone know how to extract an applet from a webpage?
23:30:06 <fizzie> They're trying very hard to get that Windows Phone 7 thing running; and, well, phones == ARM.
23:30:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: referring to yourself is not a problem if it's only _structural_ recursion, but i don't know agda so i don't know if it's restricted to that
23:30:16 <ais523> fizzie: that seems to be the leading theory atm
23:30:27 <augur> AnMaster: ahh, so the .jar i downloaded probably wasnt the thing to download, rather the class was
23:30:39 <AnMaster> augur, uh, I can't imagine there are both
23:30:42 <ais523> the .jar likely contains .class files
23:30:47 <augur> well, one is an archive
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23:30:59 <alise> all dependently-typed languages are
23:31:00 <ais523> .jar is just .zip witha particular structure
23:31:01 <augur> <applet archive="something.jar" code="something.class"> ...
23:31:06 <AnMaster> augur, you still need to include the parameters in the applet tag
23:31:26 <AnMaster> but afaik you can't run an applet stand-alone
23:31:31 <alise> oerjan: basically we (theoretically) treat the recursive call as actually sugar around an induction scheme
23:31:33 <ais523> AnMaster: you almost can
23:31:35 <alise> i.e. structural recursion scheme
23:31:43 <ais523> AnMaster: no, you can give it a main function
23:31:44 <AnMaster> but you still need a web page for it
23:31:51 <ais523> that just creates a window and adds the applet to it
23:31:53 <AnMaster> ais523, only if you have access to the source
23:31:54 <ais523> IIRC that's standard for applets
23:32:07 <ais523> AnMaster: agreed, but many people put that in while they have access to the source
23:32:20 <ais523> ofc, in theory you could have an applet with an entirely unrelated main()
23:32:29 <ais523> so it might be unwise to actually do that, as you'd be running untrusted code unsandboxed
23:32:38 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the applet start function
23:32:46 <ais523> I can't remember offhand
23:32:51 <ais523> applets are incredibly deprecated
23:32:59 <ais523> to the extent that ##java nowadays refuses to discuss them
23:33:04 <ais523> it's all JNLP nowadays
23:33:23 <ais523> augur: Java Web Start (JNLP is the protocol it uses)
23:33:26 <fizzie> You subclass Applet or some other class, and it constructs an instance of it; there's no static "main fucntion".
23:34:01 <ais523> AnMaster: it's basically a way to run arbitrary Java programs sandboxed, directly from a web browser
23:34:04 <oerjan> alise: i was mainly mentioning this for the benefit of phantom_hoover, so it's a little bad to discuss it after he timed out...
23:34:10 <alise> Miss Ping is Mr. Ping now.
23:34:17 <alise> oerjan: oh well i don't care about people
23:34:25 <alise> ais523: not inside the browser though, must be noted.
23:34:36 <alise> It's also [...] shit.
23:35:21 <ais523> alise: I agree, I have difficulty understanding the idea behind Java Web Start
23:35:27 <ais523> it strikes me as being rather awful
23:35:29 <alise> oerjan: is that a secret now? :-)
23:37:10 <ais523> my main issue with JNLP is it solves an issue that most people don't really care about, whilst not fitting the niche that applets filled
23:37:18 <ais523> although, it would be fine for something like Rubicon
23:38:10 <ais523> (which incidentally no longer works on my laptop)
23:38:37 <fizzie> For a swing-based applet, you subclass javax.swing.JApplet (there's a corresponding plain-AWT class too), provide a no-arg constructor and then override public void init() to start the stuff.
23:40:16 <fizzie> (And at least this applet's init() uses SwingUtilities.invokeAndWait() to do the actual GUI construction.)
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23:45:28 <Sgeo> I understand that it's somehow somewhat sinful to use static classes to store stuff. But what about to perform stuff, with no state?
23:45:58 <ais523> Sgeo: stateless static methods are fine
23:46:05 <ais523> see, for instance, System.arraycopy
23:46:11 <ais523> whose only sin is that it's in System rather than Arrays
23:46:28 <ais523> (that's a Java example; sorry, I'm a little language-confused atm)
23:46:42 <Sgeo> Also, what, exactly, is sinful about stateful static classes?
23:46:54 * Sgeo wants to fix this codebase eventually
23:47:08 <ais523> Sgeo: "not re-entrant" is the normal criticism, but that's rather technical
23:47:20 <fizzie> The same thing what's sinful with plain old global variables?
23:47:29 <ais523> the idea is that you basically need to know too much about the context to be able to use them safel
23:47:49 <ais523> and so you end up breaking encapsulation rather badly out of necessity
23:49:32 <ais523> Sgeo: try calling a static method that uses global state from two threads at once
23:49:36 <ais523> and you'll see what I mean
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23:49:51 <ais523> you don't need threading to cause that sort of thing to explode, but it makes it a lot more obvious
23:49:55 <AnMaster> <ais523> although, it would be fine for something like Rubicon
23:50:03 <fizzie> Here's a refreshing alternative viewpoint; context: dcraw faq explaining why it's an app, not a library: "Library code is ugly because it cannot use global variables. Libraries are more difficult to modify, build, install, and test than standalone programs, and so are inappropriate for file formats that change every day."
23:50:06 <AnMaster> wikipedia claims it is the name of a river
23:50:14 <ais523> it's also the name of a computer game
23:50:17 <ais523> based on RUBE, the esolang
23:50:27 <AnMaster> why doesn't it work any longer for you?
23:50:31 <Sgeo> This is a single-threaded application. What single-threaded stuff can cause it to explode?
23:50:41 <ais523> with no more detail given than that
23:51:46 <AnMaster> <ais523> Sgeo: "not re-entrant" is the normal criticism, but that's rather technical <-- how is that rather technical?
23:51:56 <nooga> i was wondering if there's an esolang optimized for easy hardware implementation ;f
23:52:01 <AnMaster> I mean, sure it is. But not more so than programming in general
23:52:03 <ais523> AnMaster: the meaning of the word "re-entrant"
23:52:13 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is quite common in programming
23:52:18 <Sgeo> What's the correct way to handle things where a global state might be useful?
23:52:25 <ais523> nooga: there's http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX which is designed to have a short impl in x86 asm
23:52:26 <AnMaster> ais523, several man pages mentions it here in section 3 mostly
23:52:29 <Sgeo> Or is it better to design around avoiding global state? [Probably that]
23:52:29 <ais523> and a few other esolangs along similar lines
23:52:42 <ais523> Sgeo: generally, you use local state instead
23:52:51 <ais523> work out what needs the state, and what doesn't
23:53:06 <ais523> for instance, you might want to associate the state with an individaul user
23:53:31 <AnMaster> ais523, there are lots of languages that does without state just fine!
23:54:00 <nooga> i meant: easy to implement as a chip, like using FPGA
23:54:04 <alise> There once lived a family of old, old wasps. These wasps, every day, would clamour for a chance to see the Queen Wasp -- like a queen bee, but more a figurehead than a head of state, you see -- and the rest of the time they fantasised about seeing the Queen Wasp. One day they all got killed in a very boring way, and Bjorn knew nothing of this as he passed through the forest in which they didn't live.
23:55:55 <ais523> AnMaster: they normally have state in a sense
23:56:03 <ais523> even if it's only an argument being passed to every function
23:56:32 <alise> Often Bjorn would stop and gaze up at the immense trees; or down at the bugs on the floor. Sometimes he squished the bugs while looking at the trees, or the trees while looking at the bugs. He felt considerably more sorrow for the trees. Eventually, a bird flew overhead and the strain of trying not to squish three things at once was too much for Bjorn; he fell over, and ended up squishing some bugs by lying on them, and felling a tree because of the vibrati
23:56:33 <alise> on caused; this then caused the bird to crash-land in confusion and it died shortly after.
23:57:52 <ais523> incidentally, I'm currently trying to redesign the interface of NetHack
23:57:56 <ais523> AnMaster: alise: any suggestions?
23:57:59 <AnMaster> alise, also that Björn must have been quite heavy
23:58:01 <alise> Bjorn eventually exited the forest and entered another forest right after it. In fact, most people would probably say it was the same forest, but Bjorn had a very precise, unusual definition of "forest" which meant "the one meter squared ratio around any given tree".
23:58:19 <alise> AnMaster: Bjorn, not Björn. His parents weren't so clued up on the Swedish alphabet, or indeed Swedish at all.
23:58:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I think you're confused as to what a user interface is
23:58:34 <alise> ais523: make it ajax 2.0!
23:58:38 <AnMaster> alise, but Bjorn is just a typo for Björn or Bjørn
23:58:46 <ais523> I mean, in terms of what key does what
23:58:53 <alise> AnMaster: Tell that to his parents.
23:59:02 <alise> Well, Bjorn isn't a bear. He's Bjorn.
23:59:07 <AnMaster> ais523, not Swedish. Perhaps some other language
23:59:24 <AnMaster> alise, yes but Björn is also a name in Swedish
23:59:38 <alise> Bjorn is what Bjorn is called and that's that.
23:59:57 <AnMaster> ais523, configurable key bindings
00:00:00 <ais523> AnMaster: you are attempting to argue with the facts of a fictional universe using an incorrect argument from RL
00:00:22 <AnMaster> I'm pointing out the origin of the name Bjorn
00:00:23 <ais523> incorrect in that people often do give their children misspelt names
00:00:49 <alise> Bjorn ran into Barack Obama, ex-First Lady of the United States of America, and argued with it for five hours on the subject of whether sap is technically "tree semen" and what the implications of this would be if it were indeed true. They swapped sides every half hour to make it a fair fight, and Bjorn eventually KO'd Barack while they were getting accustomed to their new side of the argument.
00:00:50 <AnMaster> and is more properly spelled with an ö and/or ø
00:00:53 <ais523> your argument is along the lines of "Bjorn can't be named Bjorn because it isn't spelt like that"
00:02:02 <ais523> you might as well argue that alise's nick is wrong because the name has a capital A
00:02:24 <ais523> actually, alise's nick would be a lot more effective with a capital A, I think
00:03:01 <alise> ais523: I like it like this.
00:03:21 <alise> AnMaster: knocked out with blow, esp. in boxing
00:08:39 <AnMaster> alise, oh and sap is more like tree blood
00:08:49 <alise> Well, that's what Bjorn argued, for half the time.
00:09:03 <alise> But you always have to take turns, you know.
00:09:31 <AnMaster> alise, yeah when people do that you know they are arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than arguing for what they believe in. Not that that is wrong
00:09:50 <AnMaster> s/believe in/believe in or think is right/
00:09:51 <ais523> AnMaster: no they don't
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00:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you missed the metajoke
00:11:36 <alise> Actually, I did a bit of arguing-the-opposite-side with coppro in our Great Copyright Debate.
00:11:51 <alise> I sort of argued for his side of the story to support a sub-conclusion I was making, and then backtracking it later without destroying the sub-conclusion.
00:12:00 <alise> Or at least it is my impression that I did that.
00:12:17 <nooga> what was the name of that game in which the goal was to zero a flag?
00:12:36 <nooga> and two programs were writing the memory, and the language was AFAIR brainfucky
00:12:56 <nooga> i'm trying to google it but with no luck
00:14:32 <HackEgo> babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20750 \ wunderbar_emporium
00:14:40 <alise> Gregor and Goethe/ais523 respectively
00:14:55 <alise> sorry, *Kerim Adyin (marine biologist)
00:15:39 <alise> ais523: goethe wrote this: http://www.fish.washington.edu/seminars/spring_08/aydin.html
00:16:01 <oerjan> nooga: bfjoust is on egobot, if egobot were here
00:16:20 <alise> oerjan: it's on egobot even if egobot isn't here, although what you said doesn't contradict that
00:16:29 <alise> except arguably the common use of if to mean iff in English.
00:16:40 <oerjan> alise: NO IT'S NOT. QUANTUM.
00:18:15 <nooga> i was also looking for some examples of heavy use of haskell interpreter here on channel
00:18:20 <nooga> but logs are hard to grep ;f
00:20:40 <Ilari> Hmm... wunderbar_emporium
00:21:00 <alise> Ilari: some linux exploit that doesn't work.
00:21:36 <ais523> alise: ooh, let me check
00:21:56 <alise> ais523: Kerim Aydin and he's linked to his website which says he's a fisheries research marine biologist
00:22:03 <alise> and has a picture of him that is listed in several other places in such a context
00:22:08 <ais523> I did know he was a marine biologist already
00:22:13 <alise> saying he got his phd from washington university where that page is
00:22:20 <ais523> although he's also worked on translating legal documents
00:23:09 <alise> "Kerim Aydin (marine biologist)" is my Sgeo-meme
00:23:33 <oerjan> nooga: !haskell is alas also on egobot
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00:26:51 <alise> oerjan: at this time? you'll fall into your Norwegian Venice's canal.
00:27:46 <nooga> oerjan: i know that, now i'm trying to find a log that shows its use
00:28:11 <augur> this is really frustrating
00:29:09 <augur> i have this applet that is working, but i dont know where it's getting the code from
00:31:14 <nooga> what was the name of this drink which can *potentially* replace food ?
00:31:47 <pikhq> Sorry, but beer is not a complete protein source.
00:32:02 <pikhq> Add some soy sauce!
00:32:54 <nooga> erm, that vanilla-flavoured one
00:33:04 <augur> ok, seriously, who's a java pseudoexpert
00:33:53 <alise> i'm no java person
00:33:57 <alise> <nooga> what was the name of this drink which can *potentially* replace food ?
00:34:07 <Ilari> nooga: Some of those VLCD drinks (yuck)?
00:34:18 <alise> If you drunk a lot of Ensure Plus, and *trust* those guys...
00:34:25 <alise> Or, if you're ais523, ProSoBee.
00:34:52 <alise> nooga: I don't think you can get Ensure Plus apart from on prescription and I doubt Ensure itself will sustain anyone to a good level (alive, yes, but not healthy and well).
00:34:54 <alise> Also it tastes gross.
00:34:58 <alise> Basically food is the better option here.
00:35:53 <alise> Dr. HJKL and Mr. vi
00:36:10 <nooga> alise: my mom is a pharmacist ;>
00:36:40 <alise> Mm. And you think this makes her a competent nutritionist? The title "nutritionist" doesn't even do that.
00:37:04 <nooga> i'm just extremely curious how does it feel to drink your meal
00:37:09 <pikhq> Who was it here that had completely nerded out about nutrition again?
00:37:21 <nooga> alise: oh come on, it's just a test
00:37:30 <alise> nooga: Well, you won't be able to get Ensure Plus, probably.
00:37:36 <alise> Ensure should be easy.
00:37:55 <alise> nooga: Vanilla Ensure Plus tastes like really overly-sweet but somehow not nice fake vanilla taste. Very horrible. And metallic.
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00:38:04 <alise> They ALL taste vaguely metallic and have a strong metallic aftertaste and they are thick.
00:38:10 <alise> Not thick thick, still liquid, but thick liquid.
00:38:15 <nooga> basically i can get everything, even if it's perscription only
00:38:26 <alise> The chocolate one tastes like kinda gross metalic chocolate.
00:38:29 <nooga> almost everything*
00:38:31 <alise> nooga: So, an irresponsible pharmacist, then.
00:38:32 <pikhq> alise: And how would you know this?
00:38:39 <alise> pikhq: Unit. "Malnutrition".
00:38:42 <pikhq> Also, the metal is probably the iron.
00:38:50 <alise> It's the iron and the five billion other metallic things in there.
00:39:01 <Ilari> Ensure plus: 1400Cal to 100% RDA? Somebody figured out how to do that in <800Cal without involving special drinks...
00:39:06 <pikhq> Yes, but those are in trace, not-tastable amounts for the most part.
00:39:23 <pikhq> There will be a *lot* of iron, though.
00:39:31 <alise> Ilari: No; >1000 kJ.
00:39:49 <alise> One bottle of Ensure Plus is like 330 kcal.
00:39:57 <nooga> alise: i can, but it does not mean that i would
00:40:12 <pikhq> It's got to be having more iron than red meats... *Which are red because of the freaking iron in them*.
00:40:38 <alise> Ilari: But it is a "complete balanced nutritional supplement" so if they didn't get it horribly wrong and your body is relatively normal it should keep you alive.
00:40:42 <Ilari> Some foods are just plain superrior in nutrient density.
00:40:44 <alise> They give it to people with e.g. throat cancer apparently.
00:41:00 <nooga> SEEEMS EXTREMELY COOL
00:41:00 <alise> http://ensure.com/
00:41:06 <alise> They are marketing it as a consumer product.
00:41:13 <alise> That makes me sick.
00:41:36 <pikhq> What, you didn't realise that?
00:41:45 <alise> I knew you could basically just buy it.
00:41:57 <alise> I didn't know they were telling relatively-healthy or on-the-road-to-health people to drink it.
00:42:06 <pikhq> Anyways: Ensure Plus is also given for feeding via feeding tubes.
00:42:11 <pikhq> Since, y'know, it's liquid.
00:42:12 <alise> "Add one delicious Ensure Shake daily to a healthy diet and make a change for the better."
00:42:16 <alise> I want to kill myself now.
00:42:35 <alise> pikhq: They also make specific tube feeds; the anorexic girl was on Jevity for a while.
00:42:37 <pikhq> Yeah, that's been adveertised in the US for, oh... 20 years now, I guess.
00:42:49 <alise> So she lugged around this machine connected into her nose and liquid slowly dripped inside.
00:43:03 <Ilari> I found nutrion facts for Ensure Plus. Doesn't look too healthy... About 20g of sugar and 1g of SFA 5g of PUFA and that's per serving doesn't looke too good.
00:43:05 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, I'd imagine that.
00:43:31 <alise> more than one shake a day
00:43:41 <alise> I was prescribed 2 and I still ate
00:43:43 <pikhq> That's... A hell of a lot of sugar.
00:44:00 <alise> "Get Delicious Ensure Recipes". Oh joy, I wonder if this is the one where they suggest putting the no-flavour (i.e. metal flavour) one on cereal.
00:44:11 <pikhq> I guess because a spoonfull of sugar makes the medicine go down?
00:44:52 <alise> "Fast Hot Chocolate" "Cheddar Turkey Quiche" "Blueberry Breakfast Toast"
00:44:57 <alise> GUYS, ENSURE TASTES HORRIBLE. NOT SURE IF YOU REALISED.
00:45:12 <alise> "Not registered with Ensure.com? Sign up."
00:45:14 <alise> No, I really don't want to.
00:45:31 <alise> [[What are the best food items to carry with me when out shopping and running errands?
00:45:31 <alise> It is important that your daily calorie intake be based on your usual activity level. If you are considerably more active on any given day or are away from home, plan ahead to eat appropriately to manage your food intake. It's best to prepare your own foods so you can control what goes into a meal and avoid hidden calories. On a busy day, carry along one medium apple and a bottle of great-tasting Ensure®.]]
00:45:36 <alise> DRINK ENSURE EVERY DAY, EVERYONE.
00:46:05 <pikhq> ... I cannot imagine that being a good idea.
00:46:55 <alise> Ilari: http://ensure.com/ask-a-nutritionist/nutrition-faq Quick, debunk it all.
00:47:10 <pikhq> Surely the digestive system dislikes nothing-but-nutrition for long periods of time?
00:47:21 <alise> "Ensure and Ensure Plus® got a makeover. The flavors you love will soon be in an all-new bottle."
00:47:24 <alise> Gee golly jeepers.
00:47:36 <alise> pikhq: It has fibre in I think. Or at least some form of it does.
00:47:39 <alise> So, yay, Ensure poop.
00:47:46 <alise> "Rich Dark Chocolate Ensure Hits Shelves
00:47:46 <alise> The wait is over! Get healthy and stay healthy the delicious way from the nutrition in Rich Dark Chocolate Ensure."
00:47:56 <nooga> intestines enjoy processing poo
00:48:21 <Ilari> I defintely would not use ensure plus as part of a weight-loss diet. It could work for weight gain diet, but I consider use for even that too dangerous.
00:48:24 <alise> Ilari: http://ensure.com/products/ensure-plus
00:48:31 <alise> Ilari: the nutrition stuff from the source
00:48:34 <alise> lol "homemade vanilla"
00:48:37 <alise> they sure have spiced up the product names
00:48:44 <pikhq> alise: It probably has some of that 'fiber powder' bullshit.
00:48:46 <alise> Ilari: yeah for me it was weight gain
00:49:01 <pikhq> (which is only technically fiber; doesn't really help digestion much)
00:49:16 <alise> pikhq: "Dietary fibre"
00:49:23 <alise> *fiber; darned Americans.
00:49:24 <nooga> maybe it's because there
00:49:34 <nooga> 's barely anything to digest
00:49:41 <pikhq> alise: Yes; that's called "bullshit".
00:49:49 <pikhq> Figurative, not literal.
00:50:17 <alise> Has anyone pirate-released a TV series or movie in full 1080p yet? I presume so, but I've never seen it.
00:50:28 <pikhq> "Surprise — neither. Yes, it may be a trick question, but because nearly 100% of their calories are derived from fat, neither butter nor margarine is the best choice for cooking." AAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH
00:50:40 <pikhq> "Which is healthier for cooking: butter or margarine?"
00:51:00 <pikhq> Somebody fails at fucking nutrition.
00:51:25 <pikhq> alise: They've been doing Bluray dumps for a while now.
00:51:36 <alise> "A or B; which is better?" "C!"
00:51:47 <alise> pikhq: Isn't Blu-Ray 1080i?
00:52:04 <pikhq> "Is soy sauce a good source for soy protein?
00:52:05 <pikhq> Although soy sauce is a product of the soybean (fermented soy) and tends to liven up many of our favorite dishes, it contains only 1 to 2 grams of soy protein per tablespoon and is high in sodium. If it's soy protein you're looking for, good sources include soy burgers, soymilk, and isolated soy protein powders.
00:52:14 <alise> pikhq: Any major 1080p releases yet?
00:52:27 <Ilari> Heh... I searched Fineli for foods with most Folic acid per mass. Liver, Liver, yeast, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, wheat germ, liver, kidney, kidney, liver, liver, liver...
00:53:03 <alise> Ilari: So, all plants, obviously.
00:53:09 <alise> As we all know, liver is a plant.
00:53:12 <pikhq> WRONG ANSWER. Soy sauce is not a good source of protein, but you want some good sources of protein from soy? Not stupid, fecking retarded, processed "soy protein" BS.
00:53:33 <alise> pikhq: So, how big are H.264 Blu-Ray rips?
00:53:39 <pikhq> Soy milk. Tofu. Miso. Soy *beans* (roast and salt them, mmm delicious). Processed soy protein is... Not worth-while.
00:53:43 <alise> Awesome GiB or ORGASMIC ON-SCREEN QUALITY GiB?
00:53:57 <alise> pikhq: Dammit why aren't disks cheaper.
00:54:04 <alise> I need a 10 TiB disk.
00:54:10 <alise> Well. 10 TB would work too.
00:54:32 <pikhq> Argh. Blu-ray tops out at 1080i for 60fps content.
00:55:04 <pikhq> It's 1080p for 24fps stuff.
00:55:19 <pikhq> As it so happens, almost all films are 24fps.
00:55:40 <alise> pikhq: 1080p 60fps. Yes sir, yes I do want it sir.
00:55:43 <pikhq> And a very large number of (American) TV shows.
00:55:48 <Ilari> And if one would take bioaviability into consideration, that wheat germ could be sent far back.
00:57:13 <alise> pikhq: So, how are the quality of Blu-Ray rips? You see, there is a rather nice 37" 1080p LG TV in this house and I would like to experience its gloriousness.
00:57:26 <pikhq> alise: So, this is somehow meant as a food replacement, while basically being a very crappy milkshake with a vitamin pill dumped in.
00:57:42 <pikhq> alise: Blu-Ray dumps are *dumps of the bitstream on the disc*, after being encoded.
00:57:55 <alise> pikhq: Okay, rephrase.
00:58:24 <alise> pikhq: Can you get Blu-Ray rips in .mkv? What kinda specs do I need to decode them? How good are Blu-Ray films as far as picture quality goes?
00:58:35 <alise> pikhq: Well, I know it is "possible" to survive on Ensure Plus since patients who cannot eat do.
00:59:32 <nooga> worst language after C++ and Java that became popular
00:59:39 <pikhq> alise: Almost certainly, a fairly-decent modern system, and the picture quality varies greatly based on whether or not the encoder of the disc was an idiot.
00:59:53 <nooga> nno, actually it's the first, before C++ and Java
00:59:54 <pikhq> alise: You can get really-stupidly encoded MPEG-2 or wonderfully encoded x264.
01:00:13 <alise> pikhq: Any things-to-avoid wrt MPEG-2?
01:00:21 <pikhq> So, anywhere from "What the hell this is shit" to "... THE BEAUTY!!!"
01:00:24 <alise> Wonderfully encoded H.264 sounds good. I doubt the encoders used x264.
01:00:28 <alise> If it's commercial in any way.
01:00:42 <pikhq> alise: Not really; if it's even so much as well-encoded MPEG-2 it should actually be quite nice.
01:00:59 <alise> Yeah, but ... H.264.
01:01:06 <alise> I want to experience full, 1080p GLORY.
01:01:33 <pikhq> I mean, the video stream is 40 Mbit/s.
01:02:05 <pikhq> This is at the point where well-encoded MPEG-2 achieves transparency.
01:02:15 <nooga> http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/cryptochrome/ <- kinda cool piece of research
01:02:53 <alise> pikhq: Whereas H.264 becomes invisible.
01:02:55 <pikhq> (for comparison, OTA HD in the US is 19 Mbit/s per physical channel, and that is often split into two or more virtual channels.)
01:04:31 <alise> pikhq: See, right now that TV is plugged into a Sky (the satellite TV service in Britain) box via /SCART/.
01:04:45 <alise> Why? Because you need Sky HD to get HDMI. This costs >£100 for the box and like £10 or more a month.
01:04:49 <pikhq> alise: THE RAPE! THE EYERAPE!
01:04:58 <alise> Conclusion: Fuck that shit. Bring on the downloads.
01:05:19 <alise> pikhq: Ehh, on actual SDTV, which is low-quality anyway, it's not noticeable.
01:05:22 <alise> Only in the menu interface.
01:06:52 <pikhq> Might I suggest Freeview? (surely they have HD on Freeview?) :P
01:07:41 <pikhq> (and thereby avoid subsidizing Murdock's murder of journalism)
01:07:59 <alise> pikhq: Freeview ... lacks a lot of channels that are actually worth watching.
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01:08:13 <alise> Worth watching as far as TV goes that is.
01:08:16 <alise> Which is not much at all.
01:08:19 <pikhq> alise: Rupert. Fucking. Murdoch.
01:08:30 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I know. You do realise Sky own a chunk of Freeview?
01:08:41 <alise> pikhq: Besides, WE DON'T RECEIVE FREEVIEW HERE.
01:08:45 <alise> So we have no choice.
01:08:49 <pikhq> Yes, yes, but you don't pay for it. And waitwhat?
01:08:59 <ais523> aren't all the Freeview channels received via Sky?
01:09:02 <ais523> they have no reason not to, after all
01:09:08 <alise> ais523: er, no, via the old ondigital network
01:09:15 <alise> oh, you mean the satellite?
01:09:17 <alise> probably, who knows
01:09:43 <alise> pikhq: Freeview HD has recently been released, but ...
01:09:59 <alise> I mean, there's not exactly Discovery on Freeview. Or Sky Movies.
01:10:07 <alise> If you're gonna get HD ...
01:10:15 <alise> ... but this is all moot, downloading ist he far superior option.
01:10:20 <pikhq> alise: So... The UK is worse at HD than the US. Good to know.
01:10:24 <pikhq> WE'RE SUPERIOR AT SOMETHING!
01:10:59 <pikhq> (it is, nowadays, nearly impossible to not receive HD in the US. You have to go to the Alaska/Russia border or something crazy like that.)
01:11:30 <alise> pikhq: You also switched over to digital TV in, like, the blink of an eyelid and handled the transition almost perfectly.
01:11:47 <alise> We're doing it over the course of 2007 to 2012, slowly, with a lot of complaints, setbacks, mishaps and public confusion.
01:12:01 <pikhq> alise: Not really. We'd been broadcasting in digital for about a decade prior.
01:12:14 <pikhq> Also, most people don't watch TV OTA. Making it easy.
01:12:30 <oerjan> alise: so we can all expect a lot of hilarity when the uk finally decides to switch to right hand side driving?
01:12:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, they'll switch a county at a time.
01:13:03 <pikhq> And have transition points at the borders of counties.
01:13:05 * oerjan has heard some old jokes from when sweden did so
01:13:15 <alise> YOU ARE NOW ENTERING A RIGHT-SIDE ZONE.
01:13:44 <alise> oerjan: actually that'd never happen
01:13:49 <alise> along with switching to the euro
01:14:15 <pikhq> Guy Fawkes would need to rise from the grave and finish off Parliament first.
01:14:29 <pikhq> And then fail at bringing back full-on monarchy.
01:14:36 <pikhq> Leaving the country in total chaos.
01:14:50 <nooga> i have problems with crossing a street in the UK
01:14:56 <nooga> not to mention driving a car
01:15:11 <oerjan> remember, remember, eternal september, or wasn't that how it went
01:15:46 <alise> Remember, remember, the fifth of November / Gunpowder, treason and plot. / I see no reason why gunpowder treason / Should ever be forgot.
01:15:47 <pikhq> Remember remember the Fifth of November, the gunpowder treason and plot.
01:16:05 <nooga> i heard that swedish switched from LHD to RHD in 50's
01:16:09 * oerjan thinks someone didn't notice he was joking
01:16:21 <alise> Remember, remember, eternal September / newbies smoking pot. / I see no reason why eternal unreason / should ever be forgot.
01:16:40 <nooga> but they;ve had riving wheels on the proper side all the time
01:16:44 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. People in the UK must really hate how that darned movie made people quote that without having the foggiest clue what it meant.
01:16:56 <oerjan> and we norwegians joked about how they'd switch only the trucks initially
01:17:11 <alise> pikhq: Wait, which movie?
01:17:37 <alise> oerjan: So which is the best Scandinavian country, Sweden or Finland?
01:17:40 <pikhq> alise: V for Vendetta
01:17:41 <AnMaster> <alise> Remember, remember, eternal September / newbies smoking pot. / I see no reason why eternal unreason / should ever be forgot. <-- ooh nice
01:17:46 <alise> AnMaster: No, horrible.
01:17:46 * oerjan actually learned that from reading sandman. he thinks.
01:18:09 <alise> pikhq: Same guy as did Watchmen, I believe?
01:18:20 <AnMaster> <nooga> i heard that swedish switched from LHD to RHD in 50's <-- if talking about driving. Then yes
01:18:41 <alise> No, we're talking about rabbit haemorrhagic disease.
01:18:54 <pikhq> alise: The comic was by the same guy who did Watchmen and Swamp Thing.
01:18:55 <alise> And large helical devicse.
01:18:59 <alise> pikhq: I mean the film.
01:19:05 <oerjan> alise: i have never been to finland, actually
01:19:12 <alise> I know who Alan Moore is.
01:19:21 <Sgeo> alise, did you ever get around to reading TMoPI?
01:19:23 <pikhq> Wachowski Brothers.
01:19:39 <Ilari> Wonder what only drinking few cans (just enough to break that 1400Cal limit) would do... Probably wouldn't be fun to watch (unless you are sadist).
01:19:48 <alise> oerjan: That was not my desired response.
01:20:08 <oerjan> well finland isn't scandinavian, either :D
01:20:20 <alise> "The filmmakers removed many of the anarchist themes and drug references present in the original story and also altered the political message to what they believed would be more relevant to a 2006 audience."
01:20:27 <AnMaster> alise, why would that line be horrible
01:20:39 <alise> AnMaster: I invented it on the spot and I am no poet.
01:20:59 <Ilari> If one wants horror stories about diets gone horribly wrong, then various accounts of Minnesota starvation experiment are good...
01:21:22 <alise> pikhq: Quick! Think of words!
01:21:30 <alise> lol @ Minnesota starvation experiment
01:21:36 <pikhq> Japan has both RHD and LHD commonly used.
01:21:38 <oerjan> alise: the sandman story i mentioned was about how shakespeare invented (half of) the initial poem. it wasn't intended to be good :)
01:21:39 <alise> "I know! Let's STARVE people. ...for SCIENCE, of course."
01:21:41 <pikhq> Erm, RHD and LHD *vehicles*.
01:21:53 <pikhq> It's all LHD *roads* of course.
01:22:00 <alise> pikhq: aww I almost got interested
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01:22:06 <alise> "Whoops, *swerve*"
01:22:13 <alise> oerjan: I just lost context
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01:22:30 <alise> AnMaster: What, a poet?
01:22:35 <alise> Uh, thanks. You have horrible taste in poetry.
01:22:38 <Ilari> Actually, it was only semi-starvation. But the results were quite horrid...
01:22:47 <AnMaster> alise, try making a poem about a bridge or something next ;P
01:22:59 <AnMaster> that way you HAVE to be better than the worst case
01:23:06 <pikhq> alise: Okinawa Prefecture was RHD from 1945 to 1978, unlike the rest of Japan.
01:23:12 <pikhq> alise: "Whoops, *swerve*"
01:23:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: hey i was going to link to that
01:23:36 <alise> oerjan: link to what?
01:23:50 <pikhq> (also, that's a fucking polyglot. Effs yes.)
01:24:15 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tay_Bridge_Disaster
01:24:23 <pikhq> (okinawaken in Japanese, uchinaaken in Okinawan)
01:24:38 <Sgeo> " (one subject amputated three fingers of his hand with an axe, though the subject was unsure if he had done so intentionally or accidentally)"
01:25:17 <Sgeo> Remind me to not even volunteer for something that might have damaging psychological effects
01:25:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is interesting to note he starts out trying to make it rhyme and then gives up halfway through each of those quotes
01:25:32 <alise> AnMaster: Hell, it's easy enough to write poetry worse than that.
01:25:38 <AnMaster> well actually he only really gives up in the second one
01:25:42 <Sgeo> I already know that the only way I'll volunteer for a drug trial is if I know I'll die otherwise
01:26:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: um i actually suspect he thought they _did_ rhyme
01:26:49 <pikhq> alise: Mwahahahah.
01:27:00 <pikhq> alise: Some UK military bases are right-hand drive.
01:27:29 <AnMaster> For the stronger we our houses build
01:27:29 <AnMaster> The less chance we have of being killed"
01:27:43 <alise> AnMaster: Behold, a worse poem about a bridge: http://pastie.org/1057838.txt?key=ods2djouutsgcvmpp2a
01:27:48 <alise> Build / killed rhymes.
01:27:51 <alise> Or at least, almost rhymes.
01:28:23 <AnMaster> alise, exactly. It doesn't actually rhyme. Just nearly so
01:28:28 <pikhq> alise: Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Savoy-court-drive-right-out.JPG
01:28:55 <alise> AnMaster: Or are you actually going to say http://pastie.org/1057838.txt?key=ods2djouutsgcvmpp2a is better than Tay Bridge Disaster?
01:29:09 <AnMaster> alise, hm okay, but that doesn't count. You intended to write it badly
01:29:20 <AnMaster> the point of the original one was that it wasn't intended to be bad
01:29:27 <alise> Well, uh, then I surrender.
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01:29:45 <AnMaster> alise, you could write better than The Tay Bridge Disaster if you tried to
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01:30:23 <alise> "McGonagall also considered himself an actor, although the theatre where he performed, Mr Giles' Theatre, would let him perform the title role in Macbeth only if he paid for the privilege in advance. Their caution proved ill-founded, as the theatre was filled with friends and fellow workers, anxious to see what they correctly predicted to be an amusing disaster. Although the play should have ended with Macbeth's death at the hands of Macduff, McGonagall be
01:30:23 <alise> lieved that the actor playing Macduff was trying to upstage him, and so refused to die."
01:32:00 <AnMaster> btw I wonder what upstage means
01:32:16 <alise> Pah, they link to Wesley Willis in the See Also section. Wesley Willis is far more of a poet!
01:33:16 <alise> "He is my greatest singer
01:33:16 <alise> He was my kind of guy
01:33:16 <alise> He can really rock
01:33:16 <alise> He can rock this place apart" --Wesley Willis, "Elvis Presley"
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01:33:51 <alise> "Play that rock lead guitar
01:33:51 <alise> Rock it like a magikist
01:33:51 <alise> Rock and roll is the joyride music
01:33:51 <alise> Whip that snow leopard's ass
01:33:52 <alise> Rock Saddam Hussein's ass (x2)" -- Wesley Willis, "Rock Saddam Hussein's Ass"
01:33:58 <alise> How can you deny the ... sheer genius?
01:34:31 <AnMaster> not starwars holiday special yet
01:34:35 <alise> And I will merely link to the lyrics of "I'm Sorry That I Got Fat (i Will Slim Down)":
01:34:37 <alise> http://www.lyricstime.com/wesley-willis-i-m-sorry-that-i-got-fat-i-will-slim-down-lyrics.html
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01:35:19 <alise> AnMaster: Do note that Wesley Willis was a severe schizophrenic who usually played random crap over a built-in keyboard demo track and basically yelled over it.
01:35:23 <AnMaster> alise, okay THAT is starwars holiday special quality
01:35:53 <alise> [["Warhellride" is a term used by Willis to describe his encounters with "demons," which occurred mainly on the CTA bus lines in Chicago.[citation needed] Willis, diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, often claimed that demons were trying to ruin his "Harmony Joy Music" or "Harmony Joy Rides". Willis also used the term to describe general harassment: In one of his songs he says, "He gave me a yelldown warhellride." When asked about the demons or Warhellri
01:35:54 <alise> des, Willis would often comment that he was trying to "stay the hell out of prison" by "not hitting people in the street with bricks." In several songs, both terms are used openly. One of Willis' songs is entitled "I Deserve a Warhellride".]]
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01:40:00 <alise> pikhq: Any Minion progress? >_>
01:41:38 <alise> pikhq: WELL PROGRESS IT.
01:42:10 <pikhq> TI SSERGORP LLEW, YOURSELF!
01:42:17 <alise> pikhq: Fine, I'll typeset a book in Minion. >_>
01:42:34 <alise> But which book, I wonder.
01:42:41 <pikhq> No, no, no, noiniM.
01:42:57 <pikhq> Hmm... RTL English...
01:43:16 <pikhq> ...hsilgnE LTR ...mmH
01:43:52 <alise> This laptop is awesome. Buy this laptop.
01:44:27 <pikhq> Kawatakunai kedo...
01:45:21 <pikhq> Hmm. Food may be good to eat.
01:45:53 <alise> AnMaster: A typeface.
01:46:17 <pikhq> alise: That attitude causes Ensure Plus.
01:46:19 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/MinionPro.svg
01:46:24 <alise> Not so good at the big size there. Reduce it a little bit.
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01:46:58 <alise> pikhq: Suggest a book to typeset!
01:47:11 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/3rCwy.jpg
01:47:23 <pikhq> alise: Hmm... Beowulf.
01:47:41 <alise> pikhq: Hmm. I'm thinking "no".
01:47:41 <pikhq> More of an epic, though.
01:47:56 <AnMaster> <alise> http://i.imgur.com/3rCwy.jpg <-- wtf
01:47:57 <alise> Poetry is something I've never done and ... well ... I don't really like Beowulf.
01:48:04 <alise> AnMaster: you've not seen that video?
01:48:24 <alise> it's called poking fun
01:48:41 <AnMaster> they have that sort of humour?
01:48:46 <pikhq> Yes, Microsoft is not 100% soulless.
01:48:55 <alise> AnMaster: Departments of Microsoft can be nice.
01:48:56 <pikhq> It takes a soul to create that much agony.
01:48:59 <alise> Microsoft itself sucks.
01:49:07 <pikhq> A very brutally twisted soul, mind, but still.
01:49:08 <alise> AnMaster: I mean, GHC is basically developed by Microsoft Research.
01:49:19 <alise> Simon Peyton Jones, what's that other guy, both work for Microsoft Research.
01:49:23 <AnMaster> alise, yes but that is MSDN not MS Research
01:49:42 <alise> Making one reference doesn't mean they're not crazy, you know.
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01:51:26 <alise> pikhq: I'd set Finnegans Wake, but the possibility of even one error...
01:53:13 <pikhq> alise: Not public domain.
01:53:40 <alise> pikhq: I don't give a damn.
01:53:53 <pikhq> http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/decss-haiku.txt
01:53:59 <alise> pikhq: So, tell me, why isn't linux32 working?
01:54:05 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads$ sudo linux32 ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin
01:54:05 <alise> linux32: ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin: No such file or directory
01:55:06 <pikhq> alise: How bizarre.
01:55:15 <pikhq> Also, you don't need linux32 to run a 32-bit binary.
01:55:23 <alise> pikhq: Well, it doesn't work without.
01:55:31 <alise> sudo: unable to execute ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin: No such file or directory
01:55:39 <alise> ^?ELF^A^A^A^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^B^@^C^@^
01:55:42 <alise> So it's a normal ELF.
01:56:02 <pikhq> Could you objdump that?
01:57:14 <pikhq> Hmm. Most likely thing missing is the appropriate dynamic linker. Sure you've got 32-bit libs installed?
02:00:04 <Gregor> My friend and his boyfriend and their picture of them dressed as Mario and Luigi is slash-ing my inner child to death waaaaaaah
02:00:42 <ais523> alise: I take it the file actually exists?
02:01:03 <alise> ais523: Yes... yes it does.
02:01:07 <alise> pikhq: No. Not sure. Know the Debian package?
02:01:17 <alise> Gregor: Which usage of the term slash are we using here?
02:01:18 <pikhq> alise: objdump objdump objdump.
02:01:26 <pikhq> alise: Also objdump objdump objdump.
02:01:31 <Gregor> alise: Hence the hyphen :P
02:02:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Kirk/Spock THERE GOES YOUR INNER CHILD
02:02:23 <Gregor> pikhq: That's substantially less of an issue because THEY'RE NOT BROTHERS.
02:02:52 <alise> The term is "wincest" now I believe, so you have nothing to worry about.
02:03:03 <pikhq> Gregor: But that is the sole cause of all slash!
02:03:29 <Gregor> *sobs quietly to self in the fetal position*
02:03:47 <alise> THE FETAL POSITION MAKES MOTHERS SEXUALLY AROUSED*
02:05:58 <Gregor> pikhq: How are you with writing really annoying server-side code (PHP/Python/whatever, SQL, whatever) to fit with really-annoying client-side code mockups? X-P
02:06:16 <alise> Gregor: Oh sure, don't ask the INSTITUTIONALISED ORPHAN* first.
02:06:19 <alise> *Not actually an orphan.
02:06:44 <Gregor> alise: I was going to ask you after a week of pestering pikhq and getting no result!
02:06:58 <Gregor> You're just lower on my "pester-and-get-no-result" list.
02:07:04 <alise> This is why we can never be lovers. :|
02:07:10 <alise> Being second on the list.
02:07:14 <alise> IT IS UNACCEPTABLE FOR AN ORPHAN.
02:07:20 <alise> Orphans have an important desire to be first in everything.
02:07:53 <Gregor> pikhq: That is not a valid answer!
02:08:13 <pikhq> Gregor: Then mu I say, 無!
02:09:18 <Gregor> alise: How are you with writing really annoying server-side code (PHP/Python/whatever, SQL, whatever) to fit with really-annoying client-side code mockups? X-P
02:09:52 <alise> Gregor: Good, but I sort of kind of don't want to do it. ...at least not without an amount of money with which to buy booze to drown out my subsequent sorrow.
02:10:37 <Gregor> Are you even old enough to drink and hit on semianonymous guys in chat rooms *glares*
02:10:56 <alise> Also, you have a crazy definition of semianonymous :P
02:10:58 <pikhq> Gregor: In Germany.
02:11:27 <alise> Gregor: We know your real name, what university you go to, and what you look like.
02:11:31 <alise> You are not anonymous in any way :P
02:11:36 <Gregor> Hence pseudoanonymous.
02:11:46 <alise> How are you even that?
02:11:50 <alise> Your name is YOUR NAME.
02:11:58 <Gregor> Hm, OK, fair enough X-D
02:12:06 <Gregor> I guess I don't even have a false pretense of anonymity.
02:12:14 -!- Gregor has changed nick to CouldBeGregorOrN.
02:12:22 -!- CouldBeGregorOrN has changed nick to ProbablyNotGrego.
02:12:34 -!- ProbablyNotGrego has changed nick to GRAGGORSMASH.
02:13:22 <alise> Graggor Smash Brothers
02:13:34 -!- GRAGGORSMASH has changed nick to Gregor.
02:14:51 <alise> I still think the Armstrong/Aldrin was the best slash ever.
02:15:48 <oerjan> a bit out of this world, i expect
02:16:57 <alise> pikhq: Oh my word Minion for LaTeX is beautiful.
02:17:14 <alise> It... it just... it just looks perfect.
02:17:30 <Ilari> Hmm... New instructions to implement: Read code memory, write code memory and append code memory. :-)
02:18:39 <pikhq> alise: BTW, I'm sure there's better.
02:18:47 <alise> pikhq: Typefaces? It's all relative.
02:18:58 <alise> Minion is a fine typeface. For god's sake, the Elements of Typographical Style is set in it.
02:19:02 <alise> You can't get much more approved than that.
02:19:16 <alise> pikhq: Here, look at this PDF produced with LaTeX and Minion Pro.
02:19:19 <alise> http://filebin.ca/tyykob/MinionPro.pdf
02:19:22 <alise> Tell me it's not amazing.
02:21:04 <Ilari> Hmm... With those code code memory operators, I don't need swap operators for TCness. Except that TCness with code memory operators is a lot more difficult than with swap operators. :-)
02:21:38 <pikhq> alise: That is not amazing. That is Beauty Incarnate.
02:21:57 <alise> pikhq: BTW, you can just copy-paste the commands at http://lglinux.blogspot.com/2007/09/myriad-and-minion-for-latex.html, except you have to adjust the Adobe Reader directory two times.
02:22:06 <alise> (After running through the Adobe Reader installer.)
02:22:35 <Ilari> Since code memory is unbounded in size...
02:22:50 <Ilari> But one can access only current window.
02:23:36 * pikhq loves him some text figures
02:24:00 <Ilari> So in order to allow unbounded memory, one would have to copy code around.
02:24:01 <alise> pikhq: But you can have lining figures /in math mode only/!
02:24:10 <Sgeo> Apparently there's a tornado watch for where I live
02:24:21 <pikhq> That's where lining figures belong.
02:24:27 <Sgeo> My dad says that it's unlikely that there would be a tornado, and even if there is, the basement wouldn't help
02:25:29 <alise> My dad says your dad says a lot of things.
02:25:45 <Sgeo> He says it's not the right type of shelter
02:26:31 <pikhq> Your dad says a lot of stupid things.
02:26:46 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to go down there anyway
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02:27:10 <alise> pikhq: Suggest a book for me to typeset!
02:27:36 <pikhq> alise: Name to me some authors you like.
02:28:04 <pikhq> PD text is findable.
02:28:10 <alise> Mm, too many to list. I'm mainly looking for something to do, really.
02:28:13 <alise> I care not for copyright.
02:28:28 <Gregor> "Maybe you could try homeopathy to fix your botched nose job." "Maybe you could try homeopathy to fix your irrational belief in things that have no scientific basis."
02:28:32 <alise> I wonder if Alice's Adventures in Wonderland would go with Minion... no. (I gotta typeset it /some/time.)
02:28:41 <pikhq> Okay, then. The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.
02:28:47 <alise> pikhq: I'd rather read it first.
02:28:52 <pikhq> What *would* be appropriate for Adventures in Wonderland
02:29:02 <alise> pikhq: When I'm not tired. When I'm discharged.
02:29:21 <alise> pikhq: Quick, what's that wonderful serif Japanese font again?
02:29:22 <pikhq> alise: Origin of Species?
02:29:39 <pikhq> alise: Serif? Hmm. Sazanami? Takao?
02:29:41 <alise> No, that's not a font. :P
02:29:51 <alise> pikhq: Hmm ... what was that one that was common on Linux? I forget.
02:30:02 <alise> Oh, is that Takao?
02:30:17 <pikhq> I named two such fonts.
02:30:31 <alise> What's that one that's... grr, I forget.
02:30:48 <alise> Is Kochi or Takao better?
02:30:58 <pikhq> I don't recall, actually.
02:31:18 * pikhq shall find type samples again
02:32:27 <Sgeo> My dad suggested that the air in the basement might not be so great
02:32:33 <alise> Sgeo: My dad! My dad! My dad!
02:33:07 <pikhq> alise: Actually, Bitstream Cyberbit has some really nice Japanese glyphs.
02:33:46 <Sgeo> I don't want to breath unhealthy air if the place affords no protection
02:35:42 <pikhq> alise: Sazanami Mincho and Kochi Mincho appear to be about on par, glyph-quality wise.
02:35:48 <Sgeo> Maybe if I keep some sort of alert thing open to warn me if it becomes a warning...
02:35:55 <pikhq> They also both include Opentype tables for vertical text.
02:36:03 <Sgeo> As long as I keep my shoes on, I should be able to quickly go into the basement
02:36:20 <pikhq> Sadly, I don't know how to get good CJK typesetting going
02:36:28 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/malkovich
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02:37:39 <pikhq> My mind has just been blown...
02:37:48 <pikhq> Emacs supports multiple character sets in the same text file.
02:37:56 <pikhq> My God that's... Wow.
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02:38:10 <pikhq> alise: It's most useful for non-Unicode TeX.
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02:38:29 <pikhq> It'll switch its character set parsing based on which language you told TeX to use.
02:38:57 <pikhq> Getting you multilingual text without Unicode. Clever, if bizarre.
02:40:27 * Sgeo needs an easy way to stay alert for severe weather warnings
02:41:08 <Sgeo> WeatherBug for Android shows me a Tornado Watch for Pennsylvania
02:41:10 <Sgeo> Utterly useless
02:41:19 <alise> Excelsior, brilliant, diamond, pearl; agate, nonpareil, mignonette and minion; brevier, burgeois, long primer and small pica; pica, english, great primer, and double pica; double english, double great primer, french canon and five line pica; and six line pica, and eight line pica.
02:41:49 <cheater99> can you recommend a good book for it that isn't K&R
02:43:05 <Sgeo> I'm planning on writing a host for a Lua interpreter in C
02:43:36 <alise> now how do i tell adobe reader NOT TO BE DEFAULT PDF READER.
02:44:18 <Sgeo> Might rawaw be a good name for a table that holds the AW functions?
02:46:07 <Sgeo> alise, why not?
02:46:52 <alise> because of fascism
02:47:41 <alise> pikhq: how did you create the title of your The Time Machine again?
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03:09:45 <cheater99> alise: can you recommend a good book for it that isn't K&R
03:10:31 <alise> No; there are no others. Explain your problem with K&R.
03:14:06 <ais523> we need a K&R third edition
03:16:27 <alise> c89 is fine, c99 is just a few things to learn
03:16:33 <alise> K&R2 plus just ... googling c99 should do it
03:16:53 <alise> ais523: i don't think the inventors of C actually really like c99 that much.
03:17:00 <alise> so K&R3 won't ever happen
03:17:05 <ais523> C99 was designed by committee
03:17:17 <alise> What to typeset, what to typeset...
03:17:18 <AnMaster> some of the stuff in it is fairly good though
03:17:43 <alise> It's alright but it's much less of a coherent language than C89.
03:17:47 <alise> It feels half-done.
03:18:10 <AnMaster> alise, what about % behaviour for negative numbers?
03:19:06 <AnMaster> and also // is convenient. Oh and stdint.h is a *very* good idea for portability
03:19:11 <alise> See, I don't even know anything about that. I don't believe I've ever died of it.
03:19:17 <alise> // may be convenient but it's ugly.
03:19:25 <alise> stdint is yet another header file, big deal, we know how to learn those
03:19:38 <alise> urgh, they're working on C1X
03:19:40 <ais523> C99 has a bunch of useful headers, actually
03:19:47 <alise> # Alignment specification (_Align specifier, alignof operator, aligned_alloc function)
03:19:48 <alise> # Multithreading support (_Thread_local storage-class specifier, <threads.h> header including thread creation/management functions, mutex, condition variable and thread-specific storage functionality)
03:19:52 <alise> _Hooray _Im _So _Excited
03:20:04 <AnMaster> alise, if you need to read exactly a 32-bit int from a file you have some problems in C89
03:20:12 <ais523> hmm, standardising that would have to be a pain
03:20:13 <Ilari> Fun... Got smartcard and smartcard reader. The smartcard reader is compatible. The smartcard itself isn't.
03:20:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you can't do that anyway without knowing the endianness
03:20:38 * alise reluctantly installs Skype.
03:20:43 <AnMaster> alise, alignment is useful for kernel/embedded
03:20:46 <ais523> if you have an "exactly a 32-bit int", whatever's forcing it 32-bit is probably forcing a particular endianness at the same time
03:20:54 <alise> AnMaster: _I _Know
03:20:56 <ais523> otherwise you'd have "a native int" and not care about the 32-bit-ness
03:20:58 <alise> AnMaster: _Fuck _The _Committee
03:21:06 <AnMaster> alise, what is up with the leading underscores
03:21:16 <alise> AnMaster: _C99 _Onwards _Do _This _For _All _Their _New _Names
03:21:26 <alise> _See: _Bool, _Align, _Thread_local
03:21:32 <alise> _Isn't _It _Wonderful?
03:21:50 <AnMaster> alise, stdbool.h has typedef _Bool bool though
03:21:57 <alise> Yay, header files.
03:22:05 <alise> Because reserving "bool" would be basically /murder/.
03:22:16 <AnMaster> alise, it would break backward compat
03:22:37 <alise> In fact I feel a tear coming on. Aww.
03:22:42 <AnMaster> they should add directories before threads
03:22:54 <AnMaster> now it is getting just pure ridiculous
03:23:07 <alise> But dude, SMP GigamegaMUMA.
03:24:29 <Ilari> AnMaster: Whatever OS I have.
03:25:03 <alise> "I'm not even sure!"
03:25:24 <Ilari> (Debian Sqeeze on x64).
03:34:41 <pikhq> Nothing does vertical text right.
03:34:55 <pikhq> Granted, it's not *needed* for Japanese. It'd just be nice.
03:35:07 <alise> Quick! Someone name a short novel they want typesotten.
03:37:35 <alise> Must be in English, mind. (or have an English translation, of course) :P
03:38:11 <pikhq> Darn it; you should totally do Genji Monogatari.
03:38:38 <pikhq> It is the first novel.
03:40:19 <alise> Arguable. Anyway I don't want to.
03:41:06 <pikhq> How do you feel about Swift?
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03:42:42 <pikhq> If you like, then: "Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World, in Four Parts. By Lemuel Gulliver, First a Surgeon, and then a Captain of several Ships".
03:43:20 <ais523> is that the actual title? or just a subtitle?
03:43:28 <pikhq> ais523: That's the actual title.
03:43:48 <alise> ais523: this is the 1700s
03:43:51 <alise> of course that's the actual title
03:44:08 <alise> ais523: also known as "Gulliver's Travels", a name never given to it by Swift.
03:44:30 <ais523> yes, I know of the book
03:44:58 <alise> just not so obvious from the long title
03:45:03 <pikhq> Also, his Modest Proposal was in fact: "A Modest Proposal For Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from Being a Burden to Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Publick".
03:45:30 <ais523> I'm well aware of both that Modest Proposal in particular, and Modest Proposals in general
03:45:41 <ais523> I /think/ I just got a dictatorship in B Nomic by proposing it and people voting FOR
03:46:10 <alise> that's a boring way to get a B dictatorship
03:46:17 <ais523> how am I meant to pull off scams if they pass even without scamming?
03:46:20 <alise> the great way is to make a proposal people really don't want but vote in anyway, and make that get you a dictatorship
03:46:23 <alise> just for the sheer confusion
03:46:46 <alise> just say "if you don't enact this proposal, era 2 will never have begun"
03:47:09 <ais523> I suspect B would question a mere statement to that regard
03:47:19 <alise> ais523: your proposal doesn't create a rule
03:47:26 <alise> also, why? it's happened like 500 times before :-)
03:47:45 <pikhq> Would've been perfect if you could've found the comment bug.
03:47:56 <pikhq> Say that if you aren't voted dictator, you will undo everything.
03:48:02 <ais523> does it /need/ to create a rule?
03:48:07 <ais523> here, at least, we can argue about whether I win or not
03:48:12 <pikhq> When you become dictator, retcon the commenting thing to have never happened.
03:48:19 <ais523> besides, I /did/ find the comment bug
03:48:51 <ais523> anyway, I care more about the proposal passing (because I get a win if I pass any proposal, with B's current gamestate), then about what it actually does
03:48:56 <alise> Onwards headed Bjorn; his destination was the Barregan camps of far away, but his intermediate destinations were, in order: the pub, the edge of town, the pub again, the edge of town again, maybe a few more visits to the pub, home, the pub, the edge of town, and finally the shops.
03:49:28 <ais523> I hate to think what Bjorn's definition of "far" is
03:49:32 <alise> These he visited with stunning punctuality and energy, and he fit right in to their native cultures; he patted himself on the back for a job well done, deliberately forgot about the camps, and went home, content in knowing that he hadn't saved the world.
03:50:12 <alise> ais523: A few yards.
03:50:28 <ais523> I couldn't figure out whether it was a very short or very long distance
03:50:33 <ais523> or both simultaneously
03:50:35 <alise> Actually, now even I can't tell.
03:52:04 <alise> As Bjorn woke the next morning, he was, much to his chagrin, reminded of his exploits-to-be by his least favourite region of the brain, which was whatever part stored memories; Bjorn wasn't really sure how the brain operated, apart from that he wished it wouldn't do so in such an efficient and unforgetting manner. So he trundled off again to the pub, and finally got up the energy, spirit, courage, and complete lack of anything else to do to leave the town,
03:52:04 <alise> and he did so. On the way, he ran into a merchant, and was planning to buy whatever he was selling, when suddenly, out of nowhere, the sun disappeared.
03:52:06 * oerjan suspects Bjorn can't tell, either
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03:52:34 <alise> "Now wherefore's that, ey?" inquired Bjorn, while pointing a finger meant to be accusing but that actually just looked rather peculiar at the merchant.
03:53:22 <alise> "I've no idea what sir's talkin' 'bout, sir, though if sir woz talkin' 'bout buying me fine goods, perhaps I'd be more knowledgeable about that there subject." replied the merchant.
03:53:35 <alise> "Well," said Bjorn, "I'd like to buy the sun back."
03:54:13 <alise> The merchant tottered away uneasily, and decided to get a job that involved fewer crazy people. Say, telemarketing. Bjorn voyaged on through the dark for maybe three meters before giving up and resting for the night.
03:56:09 <oerjan> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=91808&id=105695596138468
03:56:47 <oerjan> (yes, it's the world's most stupid comic, it says so right?)
03:57:12 <alise> Bjorn was a great fan of verbose verbiage, and had a long extent of time in which to exercise this hobby of his upon meeting a priestly figure in a nearby village; not a priest exactly, or at least Bjorn had no reason to believe he was a priest, but he had a Church of Him going, so there was that. The priest spoke from the Bible of Him, which was a load of nonsense to Bjorn, and they ended up getting lost in their verbosity. A few days later, Bjorn emerged
03:57:12 <alise> from the village, in tatters but alive.
03:57:41 <alise> oerjan: ha ha, i understand norwegian
03:58:13 <oerjan> (obviously i mainly linked it for the name)
03:58:48 <alise> "In pursuit of Liberty," Bjorn had extolled to the priest-alike, "one must sacrifice many things such as Essential Toiletries, Calculating Devices and Mechanical Toys such as Potable Timepieces."
03:59:03 <alise> "Don't you mean portable timepieces?" said the priest-alike.
03:59:07 <alise> "No," responded Bjorn.
03:59:19 * Sgeo ponders non-calculating computers
03:59:34 <ais523> alise: I suppose most liquids make rather inaccurate potable timepieces
03:59:40 <ais523> via the rate of evaporation
03:59:49 <ais523> or dripping, in a suitable container
03:59:56 <alise> ais523: this is exactly the way Bjorn thinks, except he thinks it rather more dumbly.
03:59:58 <oerjan> very honest and straight forward computers
04:00:52 <pikhq> ais523: Mmm, water clocks.
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04:01:21 <alise> "will be considered non-computable until further research proves otherwise" about a trivial stack language
04:01:25 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Filth
04:01:27 <oerjan> water clocks in at 10 m / s
04:02:05 <oerjan> well this _is_ madk, expect further research to happen quickly
04:03:28 <ais523> wow, he's been gnoming faster than anyone else
04:03:34 <ais523> all the spam is buried under a deluge of legit edits
04:03:46 <alise> ais523: as I said, IEP syndrome
04:04:03 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=DoubleFuck&curid=1899&diff=18097&oldid=8583
04:04:07 <alise> linking isomorphism
04:04:09 <alise> is not a legit edit
04:04:14 <alise> it's like linking "the" on wikipedia.
04:04:22 <alise> ais523: Initial Esolang Prolificity
04:04:36 <ais523> alise: I don't quite think it's overlinking
04:04:44 <alise> ais523: yeah um he just went and linked every instance of isomorphism
04:04:50 <alise> even twice in the same paragraph
04:04:52 <alise> which is very anti-wiki
04:04:53 <ais523> I check every edit for spam
04:05:40 <alise> i ... think someone should tell madk to slow down.
04:05:59 <ais523> you can do so yourself, if you like
04:06:15 <oerjan> oh wait hm, filth is not madk's language, he only interpreted it
04:07:03 * alise wonders about a "global" brainfuck-alike i.e. where all operations are on the entire tape (string)
04:07:09 <alise> (finite but arbitrary string)
04:07:49 <oerjan> well the trivial version sounds useless, since all cells would have the same value...
04:08:24 <oerjan> hm maybe + and - could do carry and borrow to the next cell?
04:09:01 <oerjan> except then exiting loops would need all tape to right be 0
04:10:13 <oerjan> well the carry/borrow might work
04:11:56 <alise> oerjan: but if we say the string is finite?
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04:12:41 <oerjan> well ending loops only when the whole tape is 0 is rather weak
04:13:42 <alise> maybe if we had multiple tapes?
04:14:28 <oerjan> then you could probably simulate a counter machine
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04:50:25 * Sgeo combines CakeProphet with 5" bread and pays $5
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05:14:00 <adadnl> is magic just getting something from nothing?
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06:35:22 <Ilari> Probably not quite the shortest helloworld (but working): 118e8e818e8e8e8W11188e8e8e818e8e818W11188e8e818e818e8e8eeWW111888W118e818e818e8e8W118e8e8e8e8W118e818e8e818e818e818W11188e8e818e818e818e818eW111888W11188e8e818e818e8e8W11188e8e8e818e8e8W118e8e8e8e818W118e818e8W0P
06:41:07 <Ilari> Much simpler one: 118e41OHWe41OeWe41OlWe41OlWe41OoWe41O,We41O We41OWWe41OoWe41OrWe41OlWe41OdWe41O!W41O<linefeed>W0P
06:44:06 <Ilari> That code actually uses code memory operators.
06:47:53 <ais523> how is the hello world encoded in that?
06:48:07 <ais523> oh, I've just spotted the letters of hello world interspersed among the general mess
06:48:36 <Ilari> That <linefeed> in the program is actually one of the characters in message.
06:50:31 <Ilari> The starting part is 118 (which loads 2 into stack), each character except last is printed by 'e410<character>W', last character is done by '410<character>W'. '0P' is exit the program with status 0.
06:53:15 <Ilari> I removed the swap operators and replaced them with code memory operators. Makes it really "fun" to use unbounded memory.
06:53:47 <Ilari> 5 is write code memory and 6 is append code memory.
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07:44:49 <Sgeo> Ok, that is a LOT of carbohydrates I consumed these past few days
07:45:13 <Sgeo> One serving of this soda is about 10% DV for carbohydrates (all sugar)
07:45:18 <Sgeo> Plus my box of pasta...
07:45:29 <Sgeo> Oh, I've been drinking a LOT of this soda
07:45:53 <pikhq> Welcome to American dietary patterns.
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07:48:38 <Ilari> SAD, or what was the term...
07:49:38 <Sgeo> My understanding is that it's not possible to get diabetes from sugar consumption
07:50:12 <Ilari> I wouldn't be sure about that (especially if there are other stuff that could enhance damage sugar does)...
07:50:48 <Ilari> Wheither sugar alone can cause diabetes... Maybe, maybe not.
07:51:11 <Sgeo> I think I shouldn't have had soda right before bed
07:51:15 <Sgeo> But this stuff's ADDICTIVE
07:53:09 <Ilari> One diagram I printed out blames fructose (sugar), linolic acid (soft fats) and gluten (grains). But gluten is not the only nasty thing in grains.
07:53:45 * Sgeo had a lot of pasta tonight
07:53:47 <Ilari> What IS know is that sugar + refined flour => Trouble.
07:53:49 <Sgeo> Just like every night
07:54:46 <pikhq> I'd say the single most worrisome thing about American diets is not the amount of single things. It's the *total amount*.
07:55:09 <pikhq> Shovelling down a day's worth of meals a meal is not exactly conducive to good health.
07:55:49 <Ilari> Just how you think body responds if fatty tissue is stealing energy?
07:59:55 <Ilari> 1) Provoking more hunger to replace the energy lost and 2) Decreasing enegy consumption. Do these two sound familiar?
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08:00:19 <Ilari> And what you think happens if fatty tissue is stealing energy?
08:00:56 <pikhq> So... Fatty produces fatty tissue. Fuck. That explains how people freaking balloon.
08:01:58 * Sgeo doesn't really have to worry about such weight gain
08:02:03 <Sgeo> Unless it's relative or something
08:02:11 <Sgeo> I've always been on the thin side
08:02:15 <Ilari> That energy gets stored as fat. And it won't be released easily.
08:02:38 <wareya> I weigh 130 lbs, so I'm not really worried about what I eat making me get fat.
08:02:48 <pikhq> wareya: Unless you're 3'.
08:02:52 <pikhq> In which case HOLY FUCK
08:04:14 <Ilari> Some hypotheses say diabetes type II results when one tries to get fatter but one can't get fatter anymore. And that limit can be quite low, even within normal BMI.
08:04:52 <Sgeo> I think I 5'4" or around there
08:04:59 <Sgeo> Don't remember offhand
08:05:06 <wareya> fat cell size limit? olo
08:05:58 <Sgeo> I remember because I weighed myself recently to see if I was eligible to be a marrow donor
08:06:17 <Sgeo> I'm also eligible to give blood, but my dad doesn't want me to due to my nutritional issues.
08:08:16 <Ilari> In normal persons, if they get fatter, leptin secretion increases, which decreases hunger and increases energy consumption.
08:08:42 <wareya> Wait, can you rephrase that?
08:10:58 <Ilari> Leptin reduces apetite (reducing energy intake) and increases energy consumption. And the more fat mass there is, the more leptin gets secreted.
08:12:29 <Ilari> This is integral part of feedback loop that (tries to) control body weight.
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08:15:00 <Ilari> What I say is the single most worrisome thing about SAD is that it includes some stuffs that cause biochemical damage that then manifests as variety of health problems.
08:16:02 <Ilari> Standard American Diet.
08:19:39 <Ilari> There have been experiments on what happens when one eats amounts far beyond what one needs: 1) Overeating is not fun (same as what happens on Caloric Restriction). 2) Energy consumption goes way up (essentially inverse of CR) . 3) The fat gained is very easily lost (inverse of CR).
08:25:57 <Ilari> I think with food "what" is much bigger worry than "how much"...
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10:41:20 <AnMaster> I just concluded from this invoice that my mobile carrier use MiB for data traffic, while my phone use MB
10:41:26 <AnMaster> that is like the reverse of the usual
10:45:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: End of saga: the fcam folks said next version will use type 4 in that field, because they'd like their files to be readable with dcraw too. (And even if the authot condescends to fixing it, there's a lot of dcraw-derived code floating around.)
10:48:43 <fizzie> Strange; this latest N900 firmware has split the data counters in two ("home network" and "roaming network"), but the home network stays at zero while the roaming network counter keeps increasing.
10:49:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm btw, does the n900 use a PIN code or does it use a more linuxy user/password login?
10:50:40 <fizzie> There's the pin code for phone/SIM side, and then a lock code for booting/unlocking.
10:51:07 <fizzie> The lock code is unfortunately limited to 8 numeric digits. :/
10:51:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, couldn't that be somewhat easily modified?
10:51:43 <AnMaster> after all it is full and unlocked linux
10:52:21 <fizzie> Possibly, but I don't know if anyone's done that. You'd probably need to modify the unlocking sreen UI.
10:53:38 <fizzie> Actually the screen accepts up to 10 digits, but only first 8 are significant; for that I think someone had a fix already.
10:59:36 <fizzie> Ah, maemo bug #10941: "Home network data connection detected as roaming (Saunalahti, Finland)"
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10:59:46 <fizzie> Seems I'm not the only one, then.
11:01:29 <fizzie> Only one with this bug. It's nothing very interesting, check them logs if you must.
11:01:37 <fizzie> Very off-topicy and so on.
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11:04:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Nokia comment: "We cannot do anything. Saunalahti SIM is roaming in Elisa network. And we cannot in a consistent and general way detect that this Saunalahti is part of Elisa. Only way to fix this would mean maintaining a list of such operators that roam in their home network which is not practical.""
11:05:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, roaming in home network
11:05:45 <fizzie> Saunalahti is one of those virtual operators, they use Elisa's network.
11:06:20 <fizzie> Apparently some newer Saunalahti SIMs have the correct numbers so that they work correctly.
11:07:02 <fizzie> This SIM card is probably at least 7 years old.
11:07:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, strange it does 3G then. I had to get a new SIM card to get 3G working
11:07:59 <AnMaster> but maybe that is because the network menu lists both [2G icon] TELIA and [3G Icon] Telia
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11:09:38 <fizzie> I have a "secondary SIM" for the 3G stick, maybe that one would work right. It'd just be a bit silly to use it, since it has some really strange trickery to make both cards work at the same time.
11:10:34 <AnMaster> if not it doesn't seem that much of an issue
11:11:21 <fizzie> Not really, but I'd like to keep the "ask for data connections in roaming network + warn if much data is sent" flags on, just in case.
11:11:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, that could cause some issues indeed
11:12:04 <fizzie> Currently I keep the ask-for-permission on anyway, and the just ack it whenever it asks, so it's not such a huge problem.
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11:25:20 <Phantom_Hoover> The topic hasn't changed in a ridiculously long time...
11:25:38 <oerjan> ridiculous for this channel, anyhow
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11:41:13 <augur> who was here earlier as i was kvetching about java?
11:41:40 <augur> oh dont worry, its all sorted now :D
11:41:49 <augur> did you ever visit kurzweilai.net?
11:42:38 <oerjan> i don't recall, but i've heard a little about kurzweil
11:43:10 <augur> well the old site, prior to the 5th of this month, had a feature called The Brain
11:43:45 <augur> which was basically a java-based mind-map GUI interface to a very minor encyclopedia of transhumanist/singularitarian relevant articles
11:44:23 <augur> unfortunately, the new site doesnt have this, and the archival version of the old site is unnavigable for the relevant purposes
11:45:16 <augur> but the data was all still there!
11:45:51 <augur> and ive downloaded it, fixed it up to not require java, and now i have a copy of the whole thing :D
11:47:07 <oerjan> soon you'll find out they took it down because it was approaching evil sentience. you've doomed us all!
11:48:55 <augur> unless HTML can compute, i dont think theres much to worry about x3
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11:50:14 <augur> 1199 articles, oerjan! all for us!
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18:05:22 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1023
18:07:04 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1025
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19:09:41 <AnMaster> https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16456 <-- argh
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20:53:25 <augur> guys, are there any algorithms that automatically detect and analyse encryption?
20:59:32 <Sgeo> I'd imagine that there's some encryption designed not to be detected
21:00:05 <pikhq> Impossible in the general case; probably algorithms for specific encryption schemes though.
21:00:27 <pikhq> In the general case, you've got to deal with stuff like one-time pads.
21:00:49 <pikhq> Which are, without the pad, undistinguishable from random noise.
21:01:55 <Gregor> One goal of all encryption algorithms is (generally) for encrypted data to be indistinguishable from noise.
21:02:20 <augur> thats what i figured
21:02:33 <pikhq> Yes; a one-time pad provides this perfectly. Most others get absurdly close, and probably can't be distinguished readily without metadata.
21:02:45 <Ilari> If encryption algorithm is decent, its output appears to be random noise.
21:03:07 <Gregor> Effectively most others are generating a one-time pad in a deterministic way so that somebody else can generate the same pad (symmetric ones anyway)
21:03:09 <Sgeo> But who regularly transmits random noise?
21:03:10 <augur> but im curious tho, then, how normal cryptography these days can be detected at all and defeated even
21:03:20 <Sgeo> If you see random noise, it's probably encrypted?
21:03:24 <Ilari> Only possiblity to identify encrypted data from random data is via associated metadata and other structures.
21:03:51 <Ilari> *decently encrypted data
21:04:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not necessarily.
21:04:10 <Gregor> Well, if you just want to distinguish encrypted data from other data, you just discount the possibility of random data since most people don't just throw random data around :P
21:04:12 <pikhq> There are, in fact, transmitters of random noise.
21:04:39 <augur> i mean, if you have some sort of pseudorandom number generator, and both the source and the destination have these synched up
21:05:02 <pikhq> Gregor: nc </dev/random
21:05:02 <augur> how can anyone decrypt this without knowing what the cipher numbers are?
21:05:27 <Gregor> augur: Pretty much the ENTIRE point of encryption is that they can't X-P
21:05:57 <pikhq> augur: Exploiting weaknesses in the pseudorandom number generator and letter frequencies in the plaintext.
21:06:06 <augur> Gregor: right, but i mean, i take it that the simple transposition ciphers are considered much weaker than public key cryptography
21:06:28 <pikhq> Perhaps the PRNG cycles its state every 40 characters or something?
21:06:37 <Gregor> That's one shitty PRNG :P
21:06:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, it is.
21:07:04 * Ilari is stuffing iceweasel full of extensions...
21:07:07 <augur> i was thinking more like, if you used a chaotic function
21:07:25 <augur> rx(1-x) for r in the chaotic domain
21:07:32 <augur> just as a simple example
21:07:47 <augur> completely and utterly deterministic, but presumably looks like noise
21:07:54 <pikhq> augur: With a lot of knowledge about the function in question and frequencies of sequences in the plaintext, *maybe* one can figure out something.
21:07:57 * Sgeo quickly learns why even in one's own code, one should make arguments accept the most general type of object possible
21:08:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: NEEDS MOAR HASKELL
21:08:46 <fizzie> From what I've seen, a Real Cryptologist(tm) considers a system broken even if you can write a distinguisher for it that takes less work than what its strength is purported to be.
21:09:52 <pikhq> fizzie: There's a distinction between a reduction of the strength of system and a practical exploit.
21:09:53 <Sgeo> By some standards, MD5 is considered broken, so there are kind of various levels of brokenness
21:10:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: One can generate MD5 collisions; hence, it is broken.
21:10:21 <Ilari> Fun Iceweasel misfeature: Hit back when extension download is in progress and the install will fail.
21:11:01 <Sgeo> pikhq, that only makes md5 useless for some things
21:11:12 <Sgeo> Erm, assuming that something else hasn't been found recently
21:11:30 <fizzie> Eg. first Applied Cryptography journal-entry google-hit for "distinguisher" has an article about a distinguisher for the Shannon stream cipher that "only" needs 2^107 keystream words (and an array of 2^32 counters) to distinguish it from random noise.
21:11:30 <Sgeo> You're referring to the ability to generate A and B that both have the same hash
21:11:44 <pikhq> It limits md5's usage to a mere check for corruption, really.
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21:12:54 <Gregor> OK, so "the time being" wasn't very long :P
21:13:52 <Ilari> And also password "encryption".
21:14:21 <pikhq> MD5 is far too fast for that. :)
21:15:02 <augur> fizzie: so .. does that mean that encryption is pretty rock solid unless someone knows a lot of details?
21:15:07 <Gregor> You could go all DES3 and do like MD5^6000
21:16:12 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Sgeo: One can generate MD5 collisions; hence, it is broken. <-- one can in theory do this for any hash given enough time. However, what I think you mean is that "one can generate such a collision in feasible time on existing (though high end) hardware"
21:16:48 <pikhq> I mean, one can actually *go out and produce real-world collisions if you feel like it*.
21:17:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, I mean, given enough time I could generate a SHA-512 collision with an Intel 80286 too!
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21:17:13 <fizzie> High-end hardware such as gaming consoles. (I think the "rogue CA from MD5 collisions" attack demonstration used 200 PS3's.)
21:17:27 <AnMaster> probably heat death of universe first, though that is mere conjecture. Haven't made any calculations on it.
21:17:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but you may well have the 80286 suffer from radioactive decay first. :P
21:17:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, PS3 does have that rather high end Cell CPU
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21:18:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, hah, didn't think of that one
21:18:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: High-end 5 years ago.
21:18:31 <oerjan> !haskell let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate.drop 2 kol)cycle[1,2] in take 100 kol
21:18:56 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate.drop 2 kol)cycle[1,2] in take 100 kol
21:19:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, still I seem to remember reading that Cell is way more suited to this task than common x86-64 CPUs and such are.
21:20:32 <Gregor> Note: EgoBot might not actually work :P
21:20:56 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate(drop 2 kol)$cycle[1,2]) in take 100 kol
21:20:59 <EgoBot> [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2]
21:21:16 <fizzie> They call it a SPU, for "Synergistic Processing Unit", for maximum buzzword compliance.
21:22:13 <Gregor> Sinner-jizztic processing unit
21:23:33 <fizzie> "Each certificate we purchased from RapidSSL cost us USD 45. However, the CA allowed us to reissue each certificate up to 20 times for free, which meant that a single certificate request cost us only USD 2.25. In total, we spent USD 657 on purchasing certificates for this project." But on the other hand: now you have your own CA, and can have all the certificates you could ever want, for free! (Even for other people's domains.)
21:34:44 <Ilari> Heh... This one site, ISP's recursive resolver resolves it, my own recursive resolver doesn't (SERVFAIL).
21:35:08 <Ilari> If I set CD bit in query, then I get NXDOMAIN.
21:36:12 <pikhq> Your ISP's resolver is probably broken.
21:36:43 <Ilari> ISP's resolver doesn't have DNSSEC enabled. My own has (TA list includes just TA for .).
21:36:59 * Sgeo works in a demonic lair
21:37:35 <Ilari> Yes. '.' is DNSSec-enabled now.
21:38:39 <Sgeo> Is 8.8.8.8 DNSSEC enabled?
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21:44:09 <atrapado> Sgeo, I think so: dig +dnssec @8.8.8.8 www.nic.cat
22:09:18 <fizzie> Hey, I think one of my boxes has a motherboard that's on coreboot's (impressively long) list of supported motherboards. (I don't think I'm experimental enough to try it out, though.)
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22:32:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, back home at last. And more relevantly, back with my Linux laptop.
22:37:31 <Sgeo> Where's alise?
22:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> So anyway, I was wondering earlier today how one would represent the computable reals in a proof checker?
22:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> My first and so far only idea was to have a function and a proof that it converges.
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22:48:00 <oerjan> a function from naturals to rationals, you mean?
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22:50:05 <Sgeo> In theory, all computable reals should be mappable to a natural, I think
22:50:20 <oerjan> hm technically such a function could converge (and thus to a computable real) even if there is no proof of that fact >:D
22:51:20 <oerjan> they're probably not countable internally to a constructive/computable logic prover
22:52:06 <oerjan> yes, which gives you a noncomputable real.
22:52:31 <oerjan> assuming you start with a list of all computable reals, it should
22:53:22 <oerjan> not necessarily. as i said, it may be unprovable whether a particular function gives a computable real
22:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so then you can have a thing that goes along the (computable) list, then finds the (computable) nth digit of the nth term, then changes it and concatenates it onto its diagonal.
22:54:08 <oerjan> and there might be computable reals that have only nonprovable functions converging to it
22:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is that in response to my idea on how to represent them?
22:55:11 <oerjan> it's a common representation, i think
22:55:24 <oerjan> but i'm pointing out you cannot make a list
22:56:26 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, can we go back to the CR-as-function-and-proof-of-convergence idea?
22:56:40 <oerjan> if you can solve the halting problem etc., you can easily make a list
22:56:53 <oerjan> the thing is there might not be a proof
22:57:49 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I'll have to stick for CRs for which the generating function is provably converging.
22:58:42 <oerjan> right... in which case you can make a list of them, and when you diagonalize i _think_ you get a CR for which there is no proof
22:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Nonono, I was wondering if it was a practical way of manipulating members of a subset of the CRs in a proof assistant such as Agda.
23:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure at all about how to do the proof of convergence.
23:00:50 <oerjan> well i'm not familiar with proof assistants so i don't know how these subtle differences affect things
23:01:07 <Phantom_Hoover> All functions must be provably terminating, for a start.
23:01:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well the proof would be specific to each function, obviously
23:02:59 <oerjan> hm, a proof assistant _might_ allow you to prove things about all computable reals (by logic), despite not being able to represent all of them with a proof that they are CRs
23:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Once you have the proof bit, most other things are trivial.
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23:05:01 <oerjan> those are easy, you just multiply or add each rational value of the functions
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23:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, you can get at least one constructor for the convergence proposition, then.
23:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> _,_ : Converges f -> Converges g -> Converges (\x -> f x * g x)
23:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> This is deep maths; I have no idea how this would work.
23:11:23 <oerjan> i'm sure alise would be better to talk about all this with, he's done it all before i think :)
23:12:25 <oerjan> well, for one thing your definition of "converges" should probably be that it's a "cauchy sequence"
23:13:12 <oerjan> essentially, that the values of the function eventually get close to _each other_
23:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure it can't use native functions, come to think of it.
23:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it's impossible to tell if a function from N to Q is a Cauchy sequence?
23:21:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice's_theorem
23:21:59 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, but I gave up on proving convergence for everything.
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23:24:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, perhaps you can have a type Convergent the constructors of which build a code for a convergent function.
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23:24:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Making non-trivial functions constructable would be tricky.
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23:41:34 <oerjan> are you not familiar with oklonotation?
23:41:50 <oerjan> it means i'm going away to take a walk, now
23:42:16 <oerjan> admittedly oklopol may have stopped using it.
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23:50:24 <augur> has anyone read A Deepness in the Sky?
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00:10:59 <nooga> %(* Y) ' _ % ! '(7 :)
00:23:13 <nooga> _ @(? ~(`(I _(3 X)) 9)) .(*(%($ `(! =)) $(? _)) /(% *)) + &
00:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Random irritating thing: why can't the integers be abbreviated to I, rather than Z?
00:32:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm I is something else, isn't it?
00:32:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's short for "Zahl", so it might be because a German named them.
00:33:58 <AnMaster> N does make sense, and so does R
00:34:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, because that matches Swedish
00:34:09 <Slereah> There's one for constructible numbers, I think
00:34:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why so English centric
00:34:39 <AnMaster> that is what I'm trying to poke fun at
00:34:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well that would be Q then
00:35:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, I was trying to poke fun at you being too English-centric
00:36:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but the other letters probably matches German?
00:36:34 <AnMaster> but Q R and N I would assume do
00:36:34 <Slereah> They're all of historical origins, Phantom_Hoover.
00:36:38 <oerjan> Q should of course be B, for brøk
00:36:41 <Slereah> As are every scientific things.
00:36:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes that would work for Swedish too, Brål
00:37:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait you use an ö there!?
00:37:36 <oerjan> of course not, i use an ø
00:38:07 <oerjan> bråk means noise in norwegian
00:39:23 <fizzie> SGI's math library has a single-precision-float-pair complex number type "complex", but the double-precision variant is called "zomplex"; I had a hard time not to think of zombies or "zomg, complex numbers!" every time I heard it.
00:39:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, bråk means ~brawl in Swedish as well
00:39:45 <oerjan> enter the zomplex at your own risk
00:40:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, did they provide any rationale?
00:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Zomplexes are therefore more commonly known as Gaussian integers.
00:43:03 <oerjan> hm bråk could also be trouble. not brawl i think, maybe riot.
00:43:49 <oerjan> oh wait english brawl can mean that too?
00:44:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, riot could be included in bråk too
00:44:37 <ais523> a brawl is a relatively disordered combat between a bunch of people, normally with no or improvised weapons
00:44:54 <oerjan> um i meant, brawl can mean things not involving fighting
00:44:56 <ais523> and generally they're just attacking whoever's nearest or whoever they hit
00:45:08 <AnMaster> but bråk could also be a lot milder. You could have some children "bråkande" about some toy or such as well.
00:45:15 <nooga> in Polish brak means lack of sth
00:45:17 <AnMaster> in English neither riot nor brawl would work there
00:45:25 <oerjan> google define: says so...
00:45:59 <AnMaster> brak is an omnemat<whatever> word in Swedish for something breaking or such. Or falling down with a large noice
00:46:11 <nooga> ? =(- &(% C)) ^(1 $(@(1 =) `(* T))) ^(! +(_ 8)) =
00:46:35 <nooga> i'm trying to generate one
00:46:41 <oerjan> well the denotation of bråk is afaik about the noise, while for brawl it's about the fighting, even if they can overlap
00:46:51 <AnMaster> nooga, the answer to that equation should be 42
00:47:01 <oerjan> brak is an onomatopoeion in norwegian too
00:47:50 <AnMaster> bråk can't be noise in Swedish though
00:49:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: I think they took that from BLAS/LAPACK function names, which use a single-letter prefix S/D/C/Z depending on whether the routine operates on single/double/single-complex/double-complex args. Don't know why a z there, but there's not really an obvious choice to take.
00:49:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, also att bråka is also some technical step in the process of making linnen from flax iirc
00:49:55 <fizzie> Also double-precision complex might have been added later than the others.
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00:51:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, obviously they decided they weren't going to add any other "class" of functions, thus decided to be final about it with the choice of the last letter
00:52:12 <ais523> fizzie: z is the usual name for complex variables, isn't it?
00:52:18 <ais523> it's like the complex version of x
00:53:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm the noun bråk apparently has something to do with flax in norwegian too
00:53:54 <oerjan> "Etter at linet var tørket (på bastu eller kjone, se dette), ble den trelignende kjernen i linstenglene knust, oftest ved hjelp av (lin-)bråk, f."
00:55:56 <oerjan> "Når det var høveleg turt, tok me det på bråke og bråka det. Bråki var ein kubbe som stod på tvo føter i eine enden, men låg nedpå jordi med hin. Dei brukte mykje attåt visse, kunnige kjerringar te bråke."
00:56:07 <oerjan> that's some hideously old nynorsk :D
00:56:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, bråk is a noun and verb in Swedish
00:56:41 <AnMaster> well actually, bråka is the verb
00:56:52 <oerjan> well this is about the flax meanings
00:57:25 <oerjan> no idea what kjone means, bastu is ~sauna
00:58:20 <AnMaster> well bastu is bastu in Swedish too
00:58:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, iirc you mess up the meaning of the word "roligt" too, to mean something else than "fun"
00:59:11 <oerjan> i was really confused today when at my favorite restaurant
00:59:33 <oerjan> there's this swedish waiter, and she said something involving "roligt"
01:00:13 <oerjan> and i _know_ the difference in meaning, but she actually used it for the norwegian meaning...
01:01:04 <oerjan> (norwegian rolig means ~sv:lugnt, she was talking about how it was a slow day i think)
01:01:26 <nooga> my brother studies norwegian philology :D
01:02:27 <oerjan> incidentally the _modern_ norwegian word for sauna is badstu with a d
01:02:51 <oerjan> hm i guess that was just a typo, then
01:04:12 <oerjan> bastu in that norwegian quote above
01:04:29 <nooga> oerjan: do you know where Floro lies??
01:05:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, or they used the proper spelling
01:05:20 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
01:05:27 <oerjan> nooga: well i can find out
01:05:28 <AnMaster> nooga, I guess on the veil island
01:05:39 * AnMaster wonders if that joke carries over to Norwegian
01:05:59 <oerjan> flor is more about flowers, although it's not very common in norwegian
01:06:10 <oerjan> "blomster står i flor"
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01:06:30 <AnMaster> "stå i blomster" exists in Swedish
01:06:42 <AnMaster> but well, "blomster står i blomster" would be just silly
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01:07:24 <oerjan> "står i blomst" is also possible
01:07:27 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/612967a049
01:07:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw how come I never see any Norwegians working in Sweden?
01:07:50 <olsner> AnMaster: swedish is a low-salary country compared to norway
01:08:08 <oerjan> also, higher unemployment
01:08:23 <olsner> (also low-price, if you live close to the border and either work at systembolaget or in a supermarket that is significant)
01:08:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't you have higher living costs iirc?
01:08:32 <oerjan> i _think_ norway has about the lowest unemployment in europe
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01:08:59 <nooga> i saw norwegians working in scotland
01:09:10 <Madk> check THIS out
01:09:18 <Madk> my newest esolang idea :D
01:09:18 <Madk> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gerbil
01:09:28 <olsner> gerbil? isn't that a rodent?
01:09:34 <Madk> That AI will be horrible to code
01:09:46 <nooga> apparently it's german based
01:10:25 <oerjan> nooga: it's supposedly the westernmost town in norway
01:10:31 <Madk> olsner: I also created Cardinal, I'm not so against animal names :P
01:11:05 <olsner> nooga: sounds (like it could be) related to "libgrr, fueled by anger"
01:12:01 <olsner> Madk: you get N plus-points for application of gerbils and kittens to esolangs
01:13:06 <olsner> nooga: of course, there is an official exchange rate for plus-points to/from internets
01:13:26 <olsner> I dunno what value for N correspond to 2 internets though
01:15:30 <oerjan> Madk: reminds me a bit of Hunter
01:17:37 <oerjan> although not so much details in common
01:18:32 <oerjan> just the 2d and the moving animal theme
01:19:20 <nooga> did you know that i'm thinking about a language like famous Feather?
01:20:24 <nooga> and at the base level it still looks pretty much like Scheme :|
01:21:25 <AnMaster> Madk, rather program should terminate where there are no gerbils left
01:21:35 <Madk> Yeah, that seems like a good idea
01:22:01 <AnMaster> Madk, that makes cat/kittens more required too
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01:22:30 <Madk> I think it'll be a real challenge to code in - technically once could just do M [code] % but then you'd have no loops
01:22:40 <nooga> @ could mean division by 0 and therefore estruction of simulated universe
01:23:05 <Madk> if you wanted a loop of any sort, you'd have to introduce dispensers and reproduction and cats and obstacles and a plethora of other elements
01:23:07 <AnMaster> nooga, mine is harder to code it
01:23:20 <Madk> (oh, and I meant M [code] %*
01:23:48 <Madk> the gerbil heads for the feed and does the instructions but dies before the feed is reached
01:23:54 <AnMaster> Madk, the exact behaviour of cats, kittens must be defined in the spec
01:23:59 <nooga> ah, underload is so elegant
01:24:05 <AnMaster> otherwise, it would be implementation defined
01:24:06 <Madk> Nothing will be random
01:24:28 <Madk> but I need to see how things will play out before I set anything in concrete
01:24:46 <AnMaster> you _might_ need a one way door or such
01:25:15 <Madk> There's already one
01:25:30 <Madk> you can use #.#(##
01:25:38 <Madk> . being where the door should shut
01:25:57 <Madk> need to reopen in, _)#.#
01:26:03 <Madk> just blank space
01:26:06 <Madk> trying to show
01:26:17 <AnMaster> also I see no way to programmatic control a door at all
01:27:23 <AnMaster> 0 - returns the memory cell pointer to 0
01:27:58 <oerjan> setting gerbil in concrete, how cruel
01:28:05 <Madk> set it to the 0 address
01:28:49 <AnMaster> <Madk> need to reopen in, _)#.# <-- what is _
01:29:03 <Sgeo> Well, this imbicile looking for hackers to help him went to ##C, then to #nethack
01:29:07 <Sgeo> Now he's asking me for help
01:29:19 <Madk> anmaster: _ was a blank space
01:29:22 <Sgeo> Any ideas on what I could do? >:D
01:29:30 <AnMaster> Madk, I use a mono space font. I can see spaces
01:29:45 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I mentioned #nethack in ##C, wondering if they experience the problem more
01:30:00 <Madk> those () are supposed to be <>
01:30:55 <Madk> I'll start coding it a bit later, I'm not looking forward to getting A* to work :|
01:31:07 <Sgeo> Me: "I do know of places that would laugh at you, and places that would probably attack you for merely making the suggestion."
01:31:24 <Madk> maybe only gerbils and kittens, don't know yet
01:32:20 <Madk> Since it's going to involve at lot of highly unpredicatble (but still nonrandom and definite) AI, I don't want to settle on much of anything yet
01:32:34 <Madk> When I code AI, I like to overdo it
01:32:47 <AnMaster> Madk, do cats with neural networks then
01:32:53 <AnMaster> you can't overdo much more than that
01:33:03 <Madk> anmaster: neural nets aren't suited for this
01:33:06 <oerjan> first they ignore you, then laugh at you, then hate you
01:33:10 <Madk> and I _have_ written one before
01:34:09 <Madk> anmaster: neural nets are for pattern recognition, not logical behavior
01:34:42 <Madk> it's why getting a neural net to recognize XOR logic is so difficult
01:35:05 <oerjan> hm apparently the original is by gandhi
01:36:12 <Gregor> oerjan: First they ignore you, then they continue to ignore you, then they go do something else while you cry in the fetal position.
01:36:33 <oerjan> Gregor: i don't _think_ that's how gandhi said it
01:36:45 <Madk> oerjan: original what?
01:37:28 <Gregor> "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
01:37:42 <pikhq> Gregor: And then, you make some salt and somehow years later you are remembered forever.
01:38:01 <oerjan> ah it's apparently disputed that gandhi said it
01:38:24 <oerjan> Madk: it just fit with sgeo's hacker
01:39:21 <oerjan> so because of Sgeo he is now destined to take over all the world's computers and become world dictator. alas.
01:39:21 <Gregor> Today's lesson in how to be offensive: Mahatma-X
01:39:40 <oerjan> (the "then you win" part)
01:39:49 <Gregor> A movie, "based on a true story", chronicling Mahatma Gandhi's secret life as a hitman for the mob.
01:40:10 <Gregor> Based on a true story in that the parts in which he isn't killing people are taken from his real life.
01:40:37 <oerjan> Gregor: i thought you were going for mingling in some malcolm X there too
01:40:47 <pikhq> Gregor: *cough*Gandhi II*cough*
01:41:09 <Gregor> oerjan: GANDHI/MALCOLM-X SLASH GO
01:41:18 <oerjan> pikhq: in which he is revealed to be an alien from another planet *ducks and runs*
01:42:21 <pikhq> ... What, did nobody else see Weird Al's UHF?
01:42:51 <Gregor> I didn't recall that scene :P
01:42:52 <oerjan> apparently not, i'm just making a parallel to another film i've never seen
01:42:55 <Gregor> Had to go look it up on YouTube.
01:43:23 <pikhq> How can you forget the idea of Gandhi returning? And this time, it's personal!?
01:44:17 <oerjan> pikhq: throw in the buddha, maybe?
01:44:50 <pikhq> Heck, throw in the Laughing Buddha, too.
01:45:02 <oerjan> i'd also throw in jesus, except he _did_ get personal in at least one scene at the temple
01:45:11 <Madk> *HIGH PITCH SCREECH*
01:45:19 <Madk> *IT'S BUILDING*
01:45:25 <Madk> *STARTING QUIETLY*
01:45:26 <pikhq> oerjan: Arguably Jesus took everything personally.
01:45:34 <Madk> *THE CAMERA BLINKS ON*
01:45:56 <Madk> *THERE'S A PRE-REVOLUTIONARY US ARMY"
01:46:27 <Madk> *THERE'S A LOT OF INFANTRY*
01:46:33 <Madk> *AND SOME HORSES*
01:46:47 <Madk> *THE CAMERA IS PANNING, SHOWING THE ARMY*
01:47:09 <Madk> *THE GENERALS ARE FALLING*
01:47:15 <Madk> *BUT THE SOLDIERS ARE NOT*
01:47:15 <oerjan> hm yes there's that whole "No One Comes To The Father Except Through Me" thing
01:47:33 <Madk> *THE CAMERA SHOWS MORE GENERALS AND ARMY*
01:47:38 <Madk> *THEY ALL FALL*
01:47:53 <Madk> *A GENERAL ON A WHITE HORSE*
01:48:09 <Madk> *ALL THE SOLDIERS AROUND HIM FALL BUT HE DOES NOT*
01:48:19 <Madk> the buildup stops, it's silent
01:48:29 <Madk> flames are flickering but otherwise it's black
01:48:38 <Madk> the flames start to reveal the face of an indean chief
01:48:49 <Madk> "I wanted to meet the man.."
01:48:56 <pikhq> oerjan: He's also remembered for such feats as telling a corpse to walk out of the grave.
01:48:57 <Madk> ".. who bullets could not kill."
01:49:09 <oerjan> pikhq: details, details
01:49:10 <Madk> cue epic drum solo
01:49:26 <Madk> a bunch of war scenes flash quickly
01:49:36 <Madk> low movie announcer voice
01:49:43 <Madk> "GEORGE WASHINGTON"
01:49:51 <Madk> "in theaters this summer"
01:50:40 <nooga> ... And then everybody dance naked on top of the building, singing Uganda's national anthem and flogging themselves with young rhubarb
01:51:02 <oerjan> nooga: i _think_ you may be confusing it with another movie
01:51:24 <oerjan> just a hunch, mind you
01:51:35 <Madk> with washington played by the guy neo in matrix (and the star in speed) and I can't recall his name
01:52:09 <Madk> it'd be like an action-biography
01:52:30 <Madk> did you know there are a ton of epic rumors about washington before he'd become president
01:52:41 <Madk> oerjan: sounds familiar, yea
01:52:59 <oerjan> i only know about a certain tree and axe
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01:53:05 <Madk> that trailer description is rumored to have actually happened
01:53:15 <Madk> it's said his clothing was full of bullet holes
01:53:38 <Madk> it's also (I think this one's true) said he had 3 horses shot from under him in some battle
01:54:05 <nooga> i got an idea for an awesome arcade game
01:54:08 <Madk> something that happened to jackson could be fusged to fit george though
01:54:28 <Madk> before he was quite president, a man tried to shoot and assassinate andrew jackson
01:54:33 <Madk> his handgun failed twice
01:54:39 <Madk> it was a 6 shot revolver
01:54:45 <Madk> all 6 rounds had been loaded
01:55:04 <Madk> that, I think, is an actual event
01:55:40 <Madk> also, adrew jackson took place in a lot of duels
01:55:50 <Madk> he was riddled with lead by the time he died at a ripe old age
01:56:00 <Madk> or was that stonewall
01:56:07 <Madk> I really don't remember .-.
01:56:57 <Madk> On January 30, 1835, what is believed to be the first attempt to kill a sitting President of the United States occurred just outside the United States Capitol. When Jackson was leaving the Capitol out of the East Portico after the funeral of South Carolina Representative Warren R. Davis, Richard Lawrence, an unemployed and deranged housepainter from England, either burst from a crowd or stepped out from hiding behind a column and aimed a
01:56:57 <Madk> pistol at Jackson, which misfired. Lawrence then pulled out a second pistol, which also misfired. It has been postulated that moisture from the humid weather contributed to the double misfiring.[50] Lawrence was then restrained, with legend saying that Jackson attacked Lawrence with his cane, prompting his aides to restrain him. Others present, including David Crockett, restrained and disarmed Lawrence.
01:57:04 <nooga> who's Andrew Jackson?
01:57:12 <Madk> a president of the US
01:57:39 <Madk> the 7th president*
01:58:31 <nooga> ah lame assasination methods
01:59:01 <pikhq> Senator Crockett was such a badass.
01:59:57 <nooga> couldn't they just crash one plane with half of government, high command and the president :D
02:00:30 <oerjan> nooga: of course not, they hadn't invented planes yet
02:02:11 <nooga> aha, that reminded me a situation from yesterday: they've put big cross in front of presidential palace in Warsaw
02:02:52 <nooga> and the battle beagn because some ppl want the cross to be there and others don't like it
02:03:16 <oerjan> hm wait crockett only was a representative, not a senator
02:03:17 <nooga> and then pastafarians came and put big bowl of spaghetti in front of the palace
02:04:05 <nooga> then catholics got extremelly pissed off
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02:24:32 <Madk> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo
02:24:45 <Madk> i feel so alone
02:43:00 <Madk> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
02:43:03 <Madk> zzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
02:43:10 <Madk> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
02:43:30 <Madk> bizzzzzzzzzzzZZzzZZZZzzzzzzz...
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11:47:57 <zzo38> Do you know, write anything on this channel?
11:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> No-one's mentioned anything of interest, and I can't se the point in bringing up last night's discussion without at least oerjan, ais or alise.
11:51:04 <zzo38> When I play Dungeons and Dragons game, I try to avoid to kill someone, in nearly all cases, sometimes there is exceptions. Other player characters and non-player character sin the same team are differently though. My brother's character is NINJA
11:51:57 <zzo38> I capitalized it just for emphasis only
11:52:09 <zzo38> s/character sin/characters in/
11:52:16 <zzo38> (I put the space in the wrong place by mistake)
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11:54:52 <zzo38> There are some non-player characters in the same party, one of which not human. Mostly those non-player characters are the king's guards and so on, and might use magic missiles and swords and various things. But I don't use any of that stuff. I use things like "Control Light" and webs.
11:55:54 <zzo38> How do you think you would play a game such as D&D, in your opinion?
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11:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I've got a terrible feeling that I would be unable to take everything seriously, at least at first.
11:56:58 <zzo38> I always win because I do everything always unexpected
11:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> "I jump off a cliff wearing my underpants on my head."
11:57:46 <zzo38> Not quite like that, but....
11:58:27 <zzo38> The DM makes up situations they don't know how to win but the players do figure it out anyways
11:58:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, also, is there no channel on freenode dedicated to D&D?
11:59:03 <zzo38> AnMaster: There is on other IRC networks
11:59:06 <Sgeo> D&D : zzo38 :: Active Worlds : Sgeo?
11:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, let's not let him distract us from all of our on-topic conversations.
11:59:51 <zzo38> There is no need to be distracted when you have any on-topic conversations! But currently is few people on here
12:01:01 <zzo38> But when I do kill someone in D&D (which is rarely), I would often eat them or let Obkwag eat them, or both eat them
12:01:16 <zzo38> But usually there is 100 other choices no need kill someone
12:02:24 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> D&D : zzo38 :: Active Worlds : Sgeo? <-- no, zzo38 does trading games too
12:02:39 <Sgeo> I do non-AW things!
12:02:47 <zzo38> Often when they are still live. Obkwag does the same
12:03:12 <Sgeo> The scary thing is, that was the easiest example to think of offhand
12:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, have you tried the Spanish Inquisition for an unexpected thing?
12:03:34 <AnMaster> Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
12:04:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, take that last one too, where everybody does
12:04:12 <Sgeo> I wrote an interpreter for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Foobar_and_Foobaz_and_Barbaz,_oh_my!
12:04:17 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes I have thought of that idea once, where I thought it might be useful.
12:04:17 <Sgeo> Admittedly, that was a long time ago
12:04:22 <Sgeo> And rather cruddy
12:05:07 <zzo38> You waste the body if you do not eat them? Also because someone is more hungry?
12:05:11 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java
12:05:20 <zzo38> What do *you* think??
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12:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It has one command, MORTGAGE, which prints your mortgage interest.
12:08:04 <zzo38> Also because Obkwag is otyugh and my character is ettercap. But most character are human
12:08:22 <zzo38> (The names "Obkwag" and "Vyb" were selected by rolling the dice for each letter)
12:08:58 <zzo38> (You roll 1d6 to select type (vowel/consonant/stop) (6 means stop), and 1d6 for vowel, 1d20 for consonants.)
12:09:14 <AnMaster> or how many letters the English alphabet has
12:09:28 <zzo38> AnMaster: No you use the 1d6 and 1d20 like I described
12:09:40 <AnMaster> zzo38, right, lag, didn't see that until after
12:09:54 <AnMaster> zzo38, still that seems to not be completely fair
12:09:58 <zzo38> That's what I thought
12:10:21 <zzo38> AnMaster: If you don't like the name generated, modify it or reroll another name or just make one up yourself
12:10:51 <zzo38> The name "Vyb" was at first "Vb" but I then added the "y" in the middle by manually.
12:11:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, I would suggest roll 1d10 for length, then do completely fair rolls for each letter
12:11:28 <AnMaster> which would require some custom dice I suspect
12:11:35 <zzo38> AnMaster: You can do that too if that is the way you prefer.
12:12:00 <zzo38> Another way is using d% and assigning a group of numbers to each letter corresponding to how likely you want each letter to occur
12:12:06 <zzo38> But there are more ways
12:12:12 <AnMaster> zzo38, you could roll 1d2 for upper/lower case of each letter
12:12:27 <zzo38> Another way could be to use Furryscript
12:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, how can you combine a probability of 1/6 and 1/20 to get 1/26?
12:12:52 <zzo38> You don't need d100, you can use d% which means 2 of d10 dice, one with 00-10-20-... and the other 0 to 9
12:13:08 <zzo38> Phamtom_Hoover: The probabilities are not even.
12:13:43 <zzo38> The first 1d6 for each letter selects the mode (vowel/consonant/stop), the second 1d6 selects a vowel, the 1d20 selects a consonant
12:14:24 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php
12:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not use 1/3 and 1/10, then map some punctuation to 27-29?
12:14:44 <zzo38> I have not written a name generator script in there yet, but I might do so later, or you might do so.
12:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can get stuff with apostrophes, and that always looks delightfully weird
12:15:22 <zzo38> You can access http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/custom.php if you want to write your own script without downloading the program (in case you don't have PHP on your computer)
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12:15:51 <AnMaster> zzo38, what is parameter used for
12:16:14 <zzo38> AnMaster: Nothing, in any of the scripts in the selection list, yet.
12:17:03 <zzo38> But if you write new scripts, the commands PAR PA PA+ can use the parameter value.
12:17:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, I'm not sure "The well has turned clear." is such a great adventuring idea but heh ;)
12:17:41 <zzo38> (If you are using the custom.php form, you can use the PAS command to enter parameter values)
12:20:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, chaotic neutral I see
12:21:02 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> What's an NPC sin? <-- anything that gives you the slightest excuse to kill them, obviously. such as existing.
12:21:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, what alignment do you play?
12:21:19 <AnMaster> zzo38, also, which version of D&D do you use?
12:21:20 <zzo38> If you want a plain-text version of Furryscript.php (without syntax highlighting): gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0furry*FURRYSCRIPT
12:21:27 <zzo38> AnMaster: NG, 3.5e
12:21:36 <zzo38> My brother plays NN
12:22:08 * Phantom_Hoover knows that he will have to shovel through 3 weeks of webcomics sooner or later.
12:22:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, hm I always preferred NN or LN. Though I played CN a few times.
12:22:31 <zzo38> AnMaster: That's OK, play the alignments you prefer
12:22:45 <AnMaster> zzo38, can't be having with those pesky good people ;)
12:22:57 <zzo38> But I play NG and try to avoid to kill someone in most cases, try other ways too
12:23:27 <AnMaster> zzo38, I don't get how people can play either LG or CE though
12:23:32 <zzo38> Such as telling someone else maybe they can learn to be good also, or tell them to surrender, or make a tricky way of doing something strange, etc...
12:23:59 <zzo38> AnMaster: All nine alignments are possible, you can play LG or CE just as much as CG or LE or anything else.
12:24:01 <AnMaster> zzo38, the last one sounds like chaotic
12:24:32 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes it does, but I do many things law/chaos in between sometimes too.
12:24:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, well I can understand how people can think in terms for LE and CG actually
12:24:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Write that spell and get it reviewed!
12:25:21 <AnMaster> that is what Phantom_Hoover referenced
12:26:25 <AnMaster> zzo38, what do you think about NWN?
12:26:34 <zzo38> AnMaster: No opinion.
12:26:40 <AnMaster> zzo38, after all that uses D&D rules for it's game engine
12:26:52 <zzo38> I don't know much about NWN.
12:27:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, what do you think about multiclassing then?
12:27:11 <zzo38> But, you can't play proper D&D as a computer game you need to use paper to play good way D&D
12:27:38 <oerjan> <AnMaster> zzo38, I would suggest roll 1d10 for length, then do completely fair rolls for each letter
12:27:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, actually, NWN supports that for multiplayer games
12:27:58 <zzo38> I think multiclassing in D&D is good (although I don't like the "favored class" stuff and would rather no XP penalty and instead just waste XP normally instead
12:28:12 <HackEgo> bin/sayhi \ bin/strfile \ bin/swedish
12:28:14 <zzo38> My own character is many multiclass
12:28:19 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord
12:28:43 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
12:28:50 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
12:29:06 <zzo38> If you do play D&D on computer, it is best done using plain text, over IRC or play by mail.
12:29:18 <zzo38> But it is better without the computer.
12:29:22 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
12:29:26 <AnMaster> zzo38, actually I found NWN works quite nicely
12:30:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's essentially the method you said, and it has no guarantee of being pronouncable
12:30:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no. It just tends to be like that when not recently used
12:30:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, nor does the method zzo38 suggested
12:30:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, but KZASDROE is quite nice
12:31:26 <AnMaster> at least you can base a nice name on it: KZASDROE → Kzasadore
12:31:27 <zzo38> O, is your character human character?
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12:32:24 <AnMaster> multiclassed fighter/wizard, NN
12:32:35 <AnMaster> 10 levels in fighter, 5 in wizard
12:33:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: he adjusts the vowel/consonant/stop frequencies, that can give a higher chance
12:33:54 <zzo38> My character in D&D is, ettercap, multiclassed factotum/psion/erudite/beastheart/semigestalt/etc, NG, I select the Speak Language skill a lot
12:34:17 <zzo38> Which method are those names using?
12:34:19 <AnMaster> zzo38, you can do that many classes? Maybe different rules...
12:34:39 <AnMaster> zzo38, iirc NWN1 (which is what I have) uses 3e rules
12:34:44 <zzo38> AnMaster: You can have any number of classes, but the total level must add up to your experience level
12:35:17 <AnMaster> which only lets you have 3 classes, and once you switched you can't level up in one of the former ones any more
12:35:34 <EgoBot> haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; main = do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (replicateM len $ pick ['A'..'Z'])} where pick a = randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!)
12:36:29 <oerjan> repeat the action len times and take a list of the results
12:36:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, :t doesn't tell you everything you want to know
12:37:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, after all, not and identity for boolean would have the same type, just as an example
12:37:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: randomRIO is a class method for generating random values from ranges, using the seed in IO rather than passing your own seed around
12:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> But given the type and the name, I can make an educated guess.
12:38:26 <AnMaster> I wish ghci had proper online docs
12:38:27 <oerjan> !haskell :t Control.Monad.replicateM
12:38:29 <EgoBot> Control.Monad.replicateM :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a]
12:38:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: there's a big online manual?
12:39:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, not online as in "integrated into the tool"
12:39:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: um that's the _opposite_ of online
12:39:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, no... offline manual = on paper
12:39:32 <AnMaster> online manual = on computer or on internet
12:39:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, I need something I can use in a terminal with no internet connection, and without X running
12:39:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm i always think of online as net
12:40:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, the internet is new fangled stuff
12:40:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not as convenient though
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12:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You could always have a Haskell function to do it, then make ghci load it.
12:41:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't be a function starting in : though would it?
12:42:11 <AnMaster> which would thus change that it "variable"
12:42:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh and btw my installation of the haskell platform _does_ include a copy of the ghc manual
12:42:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't think mine does
12:43:51 <AnMaster> erlang at least have erl -man <module>
12:44:03 <AnMaster> which is less convenient than python's or bash's docs
12:44:04 <oerjan> "C:\Programfiler\Haskell Platform\2010.1.0.0\doc\html\index.html"
12:44:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't use ubuntu on this system
12:44:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I do however have /usr/share/doc/ghc/html/
12:44:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I very much doubt arch linux splits packages
12:45:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, arch has as a goal to follow upstream as closely as possible
12:45:40 <AnMaster> which means that the ghc package is _huge_
12:47:15 <AnMaster> $ du -sh /usr/share/doc/ghc/html/
12:47:23 <AnMaster> hm I wonder where the bulk of that is
12:47:56 * oerjan thought du could give you a list of subdirectories too
12:49:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, well then I wouldn't use s
12:49:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, and with bulk I meant "bulk of ghc install size"
12:50:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_and_offline at least partially agrees with me (i haven't read all)
12:50:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, and? I use the man meaning
12:51:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm that might be from back when you connected to unix servers via a network from a terminal. that would be online, while using your desktop/laptop with linux is less so
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12:52:13 <oerjan> although one of the sections lists even being connected to power as being online in some situations
12:52:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe. But I use the meaning prescribed by the holy man documentation. Though linux isn't that old
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12:53:10 <zzo38> See the list of gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0furry*%3Fadventure they are from various sources, including some I wrote myself. Which ones do you like best? Do you have any additional ideas?
12:53:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: while offline browsing is exactly the meaning i suggested
12:53:54 <zzo38> I use "online documentation" in the man meaning too
12:54:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, no, that would be while on battery ;P
12:54:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, oerjan: that is because you both use windows
12:54:18 <zzo38> That is, as opposed to printed documentation.
12:54:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is because you use windows :P
12:54:33 <zzo38> AnMaster: It has nothing to do with what operating system I use.
12:55:00 * AnMaster forces oerjan to use BSD 4.3 for the next month
12:55:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: um zzo38 agreed with your terms, not mine
12:56:57 <oerjan> as for windows it uses "arbeide frakoblet" iirc ;D
12:57:18 <zzo38> What does "arbeide frakoblet" means?
12:57:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: norwegian version
12:57:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but what does it mean
12:57:39 <oerjan> zzo38: work offline, assuming you agree with my meaning of offline :D
12:58:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think they use "arbeta offline" in Swedish
12:58:13 <AnMaster> which sucks as a translation really
12:58:28 <zzo38> I don't mind using "online"/"offline" in multiple ways, many words can have multiple meanings often depending on context
12:58:34 <oerjan> checking the menu *arbeid frakoblet
12:59:42 <zzo38> I especially like the last four entries on the adventure idea list, all of which are my own idea (although the last one was slightly inspired by Godel Escher Bach)
13:00:15 <zzo38> Some of the other ones are good, too, though.
13:00:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: doesn't swedish have a word like frakoblet, then? (frånkoblad?)
13:00:39 <zzo38> Some are based on templates, which is why some come strange thing sometimes not always
13:01:17 <oerjan> frånkopplad, says google
13:01:57 <zzo38> For example, the line "<<ADVENTURE>.> CAP" itself uses the ADVENTURE template, adds a period to the end, and then capitalizes the first letter of the result (which is useful if the first word is another template!)
13:02:51 <zzo38> What do *you* think??
13:03:53 <zzo38> AnMaster: Did you look at the last four? Have you read Godel Escher Bach?
13:04:25 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0furry*%3Fadventure
13:04:54 <zzo38> If you want it on HTTP: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/adventure.txt
13:05:07 <oerjan> <AnMaster> zzo38, d100? that exists?
13:05:18 <oerjan> usually you have two d10 of different colors
13:05:45 <zzo38> oerjan: Or, one of them has 00,10,20,30,etc and the other 0,1,2,3,4,etc
13:05:49 <oerjan> or one marked 10 ... right
13:05:54 <zzo38> But they might or might not also be different colors
13:06:04 <AnMaster> zzo38, why are the first ones numbered?
13:06:18 <zzo38> AnMaster: Because of the sources they come from are numbered.
13:07:03 <zzo38> Although, I have modified them (mostly by adding templates or by shortening them if they are too long), so they are not exactly the same as the sources they come from.
13:07:24 <zzo38> The ones without numbers are various things from various sources, a lot of them are my own ideas, too.
13:08:43 <zzo38> Deewiant: Yes they do, but it is rarely used, and I don't like to use d100s
13:09:37 <zzo38> It is just my opinion!
13:09:44 <fizzie> But the golfball! It's the neat!
13:11:02 <Deewiant> I think d100 is the biggest that exists.
13:11:19 <fizzie> Exists in common use, anyway. I'm sure someone's done a bigger as a novelty thing.
13:11:25 <AnMaster> zzo38, that would be a perfect sphere
13:11:31 <Deewiant> d100 is already a novelty thing.
13:11:40 <Deewiant> It's not really "in common use".
13:12:33 <Deewiant> Although I guess it's more common than a d30, but that could just be because nothing uses a d30.
13:12:49 <fizzie> It's common enough that I've seen them on a roleplayer's messy desk.
13:13:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, huh, I haven't read that for over a year or so
13:13:15 <zzo38> Some of the adventure ideas are from ADOM, such as this one: <A lord might come, he will kill some, others he will beat and that will be neat>
13:13:17 <fizzie> At least it's safer than a d4 w.r.t. stepping on one.
13:13:20 <AnMaster> would have quite a bit to catch up with
13:13:45 <AnMaster> zzo38, ADOM, isn't that some computer game?
13:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea at all why so much happens between interesting things.
13:13:56 <zzo38> d4 is difficult to roll the dice a bit
13:14:18 <zzo38> You mean, flip-a-coin?
13:14:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm not sure freefall is moving _faster_. it's coming to a pivotal point, however.
13:15:03 <zzo38> Is it half-sphere so it can land only one way?
13:15:05 <fizzie> Ooh, someone has opinions: "In 1985 a man named Lou Zocchi invented the 100-sided die or "Zocchihedron." You know, because two D10s were just so damn heavy to roll in tandem. Well, this die certainly rolls -- it rolls and rolls, which makes sense, because it has a hundred sides, or almost enough to become a perfectly round sphere. Good luck finding out which number it's actually landed on. Is it 2, or 57? You won't know. You won't goddamn know because the die
13:15:05 <fizzie> rolled off your table. The D100 almost has to rolled in a box, or the padded cell that you should be kept in if you insist on using this. I think any die that needs an enclosure isn't a die, it is a pet for the insane."
13:15:18 <AnMaster> zzo38, perhaps, but that can still land in two ways
13:15:33 <AnMaster> zzo38, but actually I want the d1 to just have a single side
13:15:43 <AnMaster> not physically possible of course
13:16:01 <zzo38> A Mobius strip does have two sides. It is just that both sides are the same side.
13:16:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a klein bottle isn't physically possible in 3D
13:16:55 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Why it doesn't...?
13:16:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can't make it in 3D
13:17:34 <zzo38> In a mobius strip there is one other side from any side, but it is the same side as the first side!
13:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you can't... embed or orient or immerse (one of them) it in 3D.
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13:19:06 <zzo38> A mobius strip cannot be silver-plated on one side and gold-plated on the other side (assuming you mean entirely and that these are mutually exclusive), unless you mean locally to one part of the mobius band, it can be. But not for the entirety.
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13:19:38 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you can't... embed or orient or immerse (one of them) it in 3D. <-- that is what I said
13:19:43 <zzo38> Do you like to agree or disagree or whatever? And for what reasons?
13:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, but you can put one in 3D if it self-intersects.
13:20:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes but that isn't possible to make without access to a fourth dimension
13:21:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, like you can't make a möbius band without access to the 3rd dimension
13:22:58 <zzo38> You can fake it, such as if you make a chess variant with a board that acts as a mobius geometry
13:23:26 <zzo38> Phamtom_Hoover: Yes I know!
13:24:19 <oerjan> you can embed the mobius band perfectly well in the _projective_ plane iirc (of which you can make a chessboard)
13:24:25 <zzo38> Actually you can even fake a standard chess game on a 1-dimensional board (and I have done so).
13:25:08 <zzo38> See http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSeeeeeeeeeeeeee
13:25:50 <zzo38> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX! Chess is exactly the same as chess even though it is extremely different from chess.
13:26:11 <Phantom_Hoover> You can do arbitrary games on an unbounded board in 1D.
13:26:29 <oerjan> when you immerse a 2D surface in the plane, the orientability of the plane itself, forces the surface to also have a consistent orientation, i think. while embedding 2d in 3d this doesn't happen.
13:27:14 <oerjan> which means you also cannot immerse a MB in a sphere or a torus
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13:28:04 <zzo38> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX! Chess has 12 kind of pieces (instead of 6 as in chess), it has unequal armies, it has a deck of cards, win is by capture not checkmate, yet, the game is exactly the same as chess, despite all of these differences!!!
13:28:49 <oerjan> (the orientations have to match locally consistently, and the global orientation of the superspace forces global consistency of the immersed space. i think.
13:30:13 <zzo38> Look at the rules for my one-dimensional game and tell if if I did a good job of it, or not.
13:30:52 <AnMaster> zzo38, EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX! Chess seems to be missing en passant
13:32:02 <zzo38> AnMaster: No it isn't. Simulating en passant is what the Oranges is for.
13:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are you saying EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX?
13:32:14 <oerjan> hm a mook is a castle that can still castle, right?
13:32:36 <oerjan> heh that's the first comment
13:33:01 <zzo38> oerjan: That is, the most recent comment.
13:33:33 <zzo38> Only the five most recent comments are displayed unless you select the "List all comments and ratings" link.
13:34:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, that EE+X Chess is truly a brilliant idea
13:35:09 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes it is, and your idea of abbreviating it EE+X is also good idea, I think.
13:35:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, that or do it like l10n or i18n
13:35:46 <AnMaster> except I couldn't be bothered to count number of letters
13:36:10 <zzo38> I don't really care the number of letters either, though.
13:36:39 <zzo38> I have written various other chess variants as well on there
13:36:46 <AnMaster> $ echo -n EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX | wc -c
13:37:45 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Why are you saying EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX? <-- should be obvious if you read more than half of what was actually said on IRC for once
13:39:07 <zzo38> My brother also had some ideas, which I then typed out and fixed the rules a bit. One of them is Bland Chess, where there is no diagonal moves (but knight moves are still allowed).
13:39:27 <zzo38> (Diagonal mode of movement of any pieces is not allowed. This means bishops cannot move at all.)
13:39:44 <AnMaster> zzo38, heard of that Discworld chess variant ?
13:39:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, exactly that one
13:40:14 <AnMaster> I think it could be quite playable
13:40:24 <zzo38> I don't know how exactly it is supposed to work but I guessed and wrote an implementation
13:40:40 <AnMaster> I think I have it in the discworld compendium
13:42:07 <AnMaster> in stealth chess: probably not
13:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> White moves assassin in right slurk to 7; they can capture up to 6 moves away; it's 5 moves to black's king.
13:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> But still, after 8 moves in the slurks an assassin can capture any piece on the board, can it not?
13:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> But that means that as soon as white has made 8 moves it has mate, doesn't it?
13:48:30 <zzo38> That is why it is necessary to make other guesses about things
13:49:08 <zzo38> Here is an example game, played by the computer program against itself: http://sprunge.us/YEWG
13:49:59 <AnMaster> ooh at last schlock mercenary is moving again
13:50:16 <AnMaster> it has been very slow going for a while
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13:51:41 <zzo38> I also invented Xorix Shogi, it is a shogi game that any piece that captures another piece has its powers XORed with the piece it is capturing.
13:52:37 <zzo38> And Communist Chess, where every time you capture an opponents piece you must destroy one of your own pieces of the same type (although you can choose which one), and if you promote, you must select an opponent's pawn and change it into the same kind of piece you promoted into.
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13:53:59 <AnMaster> <zzo38> That is why it is necessary to make other guesses about things <-- such as?
13:55:00 <zzo38> AnMaster: See the example game
13:55:44 <AnMaster> zzo38, I meant, what are the extra rules. I can't figure that out from the example game
13:55:46 <zzo38> And also Protomorphic-Chess: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSprotomorphic-c
13:56:23 <zzo38> AnMaster: I had to modify the rules a bit, for various reasons. Also I don't know what the proper rules are supposed to be exactly, anyways.
13:56:44 <AnMaster> zzo38, how did you modify them
13:56:55 <zzo38> Does this help tell you? http://sprunge.us/ELdN
13:57:18 <AnMaster> not really. It is some LISP I see.
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13:58:07 <zzo38> That is the best help I can give at this time....
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13:59:49 <Madk> Const gerbil%=1
13:59:49 <Madk> Const kitten%=2
14:00:18 <AnMaster> Madk, have you fully defined the AI behaviour of those?
14:00:28 <Madk> That's almost all I've done so far
14:00:31 <Madk> just started XD
14:00:33 <AnMaster> otherwise I fear it is impossible to do a FOSS implementation
14:00:50 <Madk> FOSS? Your acronym confuses me
14:01:15 <AnMaster> Madk, I believe freenode (this irc network) uses it in it's motd
14:01:42 <Madk> there is no "FOSS" in the motd
14:02:14 <Madk> yay for letters?
14:02:29 <zzo38> (Issue the MOTD command if you need to see it again; still, it doesn't say what FOSS stands for, it just uses it.)
14:02:47 <AnMaster> thus I assume people check what it means
14:02:49 <Madk> madk doesn't know hoe to use irc commands
14:03:12 <Madk> that doesn't do anything
14:03:13 <zzo38> You are using XCHAT. I do not know how to use XCHAT
14:03:26 <AnMaster> Madk, it does in xchat, check server tab
14:03:57 <AnMaster> anyway it is your responsibility as a user on an IRC network to read and understand the network rules given in motd
14:04:15 <AnMaster> * - By connecting to freenode you indicate that you have read
14:04:15 <AnMaster> * - and agree to adhere to our policies and procedures as per
14:04:15 <AnMaster> * - the website (http://freenode.net). [...]
14:04:30 <AnMaster> so not reading motd is a bad idea
14:05:03 <zzo38> That assumes you have a web-browser software installed..... Perhaps if they used plain-text, it would not requires so.
14:05:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, everyone had that nowdays though
14:05:29 <AnMaster> zzo38, however if you don't why not go complain in #freenode :P
14:05:45 <zzo38> Like in my IRC server, all help files are accessible using HELP command.
14:06:06 <zzo38> I do have web-browser software on this computer, however.
14:06:27 <AnMaster> however /motd and/or /rules are the relevant ones to check for network rules
14:06:28 <Madk> ._. I'm not an open-source guru. Unless I intend otgers to see and use the source to my programs, I don't open-source them
14:06:39 <zzo38> Yes it does, but not to list FAQs and policies and so on.
14:07:16 <Madk> I usually O-S my tools and things, and don't my games.
14:07:39 <AnMaster> Personally I truly believe in FOSS.
14:07:57 <zzo38> I open-source all my programs as much as possible, sometimes making it public-domain, or sometimes GNU GPL, sometimes multi license. I do this for various reasons, including: freedom, portability, in case other people has ideas to improve it, and more.
14:08:16 <AnMaster> Madk, point is, it would be nice if you documented your esolangs well enough that anyone else could implement it completely from the spec
14:08:22 <zzo38> Even the games I like to do so.
14:08:24 <AnMaster> without checking your interpreter
14:08:58 <zzo38> There are BSD-style licenses and stuff, but I don't use them. I just GNU GPL or else just public domain.
14:09:04 <Madk> anmaster: I basically describe exactly what the interpreter does in the commands section
14:09:12 <Madk> I don't know what else there is to include
14:09:25 <AnMaster> Madk, I seem to remember there was some confusion over exactly how the AIs of cats and such works
14:10:16 <zzo38> Although in one case, I wrote a program which is dual-licensed "GNU GPL version 2 or later version, or Microsoft Reciprocal License".
14:10:21 <Madk> there is no interpreter for gerbil yet
14:10:23 <AnMaster> Madk, I mean, your spec leaves a lot or room for how the AI of cats and such works.
14:10:31 <Madk> I haven't finished deciding
14:10:45 <Madk> the AI is going to leave a lot of room for unpredictable behaviour
14:10:48 <AnMaster> Madk, as long as you document it enough at some point I'm happy
14:10:55 <zzo38> (That dual-licensed program is useful for Windows only, and might even be useful for Microsoft to include in later versions of Windows, but it might be useful for ReactOS as well)
14:11:05 <Madk> Once the interpreter is written, I'll describe it fully.
14:11:36 <AnMaster> Madk, good. It would be rather inconvenient if two different implementations did differ in small details about that
14:12:03 <zzo38> What is your opinion on free software licensing?
14:12:17 <Madk> zzo38: who, me?
14:12:30 <zzo38> Anyone who wants to answer
14:12:44 <AnMaster> but I haven't yet made any projects where I found that fitting
14:12:57 <Madk> That's what I usually use when I release something
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14:13:12 <zzo38> AnMaster: OK. I generally use GPL3, and public domain, but I don't apply BSD licenses to my software, unless it already is.
14:13:54 <zzo38> I could use LGPL3 too, if I write a software for which I find its use that I should use it for.
14:14:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that should be _most_ interesting
14:14:18 <zzo38> AnMaster: BSD-style licenses is just permissive, that I don't require copyright and just make it public domain.
14:14:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I read good omens, haven't read sandman
14:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, read 1-3 of Sandman, the universe is conspiring to stop me from reading 4.
14:14:53 <AnMaster> zzo38, I like getting some recognition that I wrote it.
14:15:19 <zzo38> AnMaster: I have nothing against *you* using such licenses, it is just that I don't.
14:15:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not read those :/
14:16:35 <zzo38> I don't require recognition that I wrote it. Even if it is GNU GPL, I don't really care about that as much. I only care that copyleft is adhered to.
14:16:51 <zzo38> You can see that I wrote it from where you got the software at first, if you want to.
14:18:25 <zzo38> I have licensed the Icosahedral Role Playing Game under CC-BY-SA, but I don't care much about the attribution requirement. I only care about the share-alike requirement.
14:19:21 <zzo38> However, there is no updated version of CC-SA so I used CC-BY-SA instead.
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15:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I was told to ask you about how the computable reals might be handled in a proof assistant.
15:59:06 <aliseiphone> Proof assistants use type theory. Well. Most of em
15:59:54 <aliseiphone> It's powerful but unstable - falsehoods have been proven several times only to be "patched up" -
16:00:05 <aliseiphone> and actually writing proofs is very difficult
16:00:50 <aliseiphone> It's very old and proven (80s), expressive and powerful, and with a very easy proof method
16:01:16 <aliseiphone> Indeed Gpedels first incompleteness theorem has been proven in it
16:02:26 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: My Coq recommendation: Use Emacs with Proof General. Three window mode and electric mode.
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16:04:10 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: have none. But note that in agda you must write proof terms manually
16:04:26 <aliseiphone> This is almost impossuble for anything complex
16:06:47 <aliseiphone> CR := sum (f : Q+ -> Q). forall (e1 e2 : Q+). abs (f e1 - f e2) <= e1 + e2
16:07:02 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: This is a Cauchy sequence of rationals
16:07:28 <aliseiphone> "pi 0.01 = 3.14 or more accurate", basically
16:07:51 <aliseiphone> so a cr is a function like that with a proof of being Cauchy
16:09:36 <aliseiphone> since a proof would have to construct a proof of equality
16:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> So what about a subset of the CRs for which proofs exist?
16:13:54 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Um just because proofs exist
16:14:08 <aliseiphone> Doesn't mean a single algo can generate all of them
16:16:02 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Russell o'connor has already developed all this in coq btw
16:17:17 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: /my/ pet project is developing continued fractions in Coq; very hard
16:17:41 <aliseiphone> but i think it would be useful or at least interesting
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17:13:25 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I think you're drunk.
17:16:59 <aliseiphone> Damn, I should smoke weed and then design aliseOS. The perfect OS for baked idealists.
17:19:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So I'm thinking that objects are basically...
17:20:14 <aliseiphone> Collections of slots + a bunch of running code contexts (like threads)
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17:20:40 <aliseiphone> And the slots are the whole namespace it can access plus it's own stuff
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17:21:47 <aliseiphone> oklopol: Say, what theoretical monster has your OS morphed into along with yourself? :P
17:29:49 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Hmm. What if we have ... Dynamic namespaces?
17:30:00 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Instead of slots bei g defined in memory
17:30:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: A process in the object gets name requests
17:32:18 <pikhq> What if you have... COFFEE.
17:32:26 <pikhq> I think that makes everything better.
17:32:31 <pikhq> Especially MORNING.
17:36:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Funny, I thought dark comedy involved the comedy itself being *about* various bad things. The more horrid the better.
17:37:31 <aliseiphone> Comedy with bad things: Bang bang bang! Hmm, you are without a head. [laugh track]
17:37:52 <pikhq> ... Okay, I phrased it poorly.
17:37:59 <aliseiphone> Dark comedy: Not good enough writer to write example
17:46:37 <aliseiphone> pikhq: [ lookup: (name) => { if name = :happy then {:yes} else {42} } ]
17:48:17 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I want some influencii from Haskell too though...
17:50:17 <pikhq> aliseiphone: STATIC TYPING
17:50:32 <pikhq> ALSO MAKE IT HASKELL BUT AWESOMER
17:54:42 <aliseiphone> Counter: [ (n): 0; increment: => ~[ n: n+1 ]; value: => n ]
17:55:03 <aliseiphone> pikhq: ~[...] is object augmentation. Look ma, no side effects!
17:56:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Private variables (n) are done by having the lookup method check who's asking for the slot.
18:00:35 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Say I want to install puppy to a partition.
18:02:03 <aliseiphone> So, 4 gig drive. 3 gigs windows 1 gig puppy?
18:03:57 <pikhq> More than comfortable.
18:05:07 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Now how do I make puppy understand a USB wifi?
18:17:01 <pikhq> Yeah, it does that when you don't de-shit it.
18:18:00 <pikhq> It's mostly the shit it retains.
18:18:06 <pikhq> Remove the fecal matter, and all shall be well.
18:25:26 <pikhq> Japanese's pre-WWII orthography.
18:25:39 <pikhq> *Their syllabary wasn't phonetic*
18:26:12 <pikhq> Well, rather, it was. *In Middle Japanese.*
18:26:54 <pikhq> "Tokyo", for instance, was actually written as "toukyau"...
18:27:39 <pikhq> "En" was written as "Yen"...
18:27:54 <pikhq> ("ye" has *ceased to be a valid syllable in Japanese*.)
18:28:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Kana. The syllabary.
18:28:29 <pikhq> Well, literal-romanisation-of-kana.
18:28:49 <pikhq> Well. Not even fully such.
18:29:13 <pikhq> "toukixyou" was written is "toukiyau" and "enn" was written as "yenn". Thar.
18:29:15 <aliseiphone> So they used different kana or different romanization?
18:29:38 <pikhq> aliseiphone: They used kana differently.
18:30:16 <pikhq> And romanisations were all sorts of fucked up before WWII.
18:30:40 <pikhq> Consider for a moment the word "yen". Which is "en" in Japanese...
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18:31:09 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if one could create a language resistant to parsing
18:32:11 <pikhq> "Motiiru", to use, was written as "motiwiru" or "motihiru". Urgh.
18:32:14 <aliseiphone> Perl's syntax depends on the result of arbitrary Perl code.
18:33:02 <aliseiphone> Google perl is unparseable or whatever. The perlmonks article.
18:33:14 <pikhq> "t`os`ixyou" (dojou), a type of fish, was written "t`ot`iyau" (dodiyau)...
18:34:01 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663393
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18:37:16 * pikhq hates it when an orthography encodes sounds that have ceased to be in the language
18:38:29 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I should publish the implementation of aliseOS as a Ph.D. thesis XD
18:38:54 <pikhq> AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHRIGHT
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18:39:42 <pikhq> They had a completely seperate written language until the 1900s. Because commonly available writing fixed the written language a few hundred years back.]
18:39:46 <pikhq> They had a completely seperate written language until the 1900s. Because commonly available writing fixed the written language a few hundred years back.]
18:40:03 <Gregor> Amazon suggests the following as my "pay phrase":
18:40:05 <Gregor> "Gregor's Architectural Manuals"
18:40:06 <pikhq> Thank you recent history for making Japanese less of a pain.
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19:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I desperately want to create a language called "can't be parsed".
19:13:20 <pikhq> Trivial to do, actually.
19:14:06 <pikhq> Make the parser depend upon the haltingness of the previously parsed code.
19:15:58 <aliseiphone> pikhq: But the code after inf loop doesn't matter...
19:16:49 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Except that you make it so that the code after an infinite loop can make the infinite loop not happen.
19:17:02 <pikhq> Simplest solution is, of course, to have COMEFROM in the language.
19:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Could you implement TwoDucks' time travel with call/cc?
19:19:52 <pikhq> No, but you could probably do it with the time travel monad.
19:21:02 <pikhq> aliseiphone: What, does it also time travel the IO?
19:21:18 <pikhq> Yeah, you'd need IOT for that.
19:21:24 <pikhq> Also, sorry; StateT Cont.
19:21:40 <pikhq> IOT Cont would be nice to have.
19:24:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that Neil Cicierega is Doctor Who's brother.
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19:26:54 <oklopol> "<pikhq> Trivial to do, actually." <<< indeed, you can pretty much name things any way you want
19:28:08 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: yesiknowomgthatshallbeawesome
19:29:38 <oklopol> so umm why isn't one marker useful for a finite state automaton?
19:30:08 <oklopol> we have an FSM that can carry a marker around on the input string, detect it when over it, carry it, and drop it elsewhere
19:30:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'll go into the future while holding onto a continuation so I can pass back a continuation.
19:30:25 <oklopol> one marker isn't useful, can anyway explain why exactly?
19:31:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, everyone knows you can't go into the future with a continuation!
19:31:39 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes you can. If you went there the long way and used one to go back while holding onto a continuation FROM THE FUUTUUURE
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19:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I have no patience for Neil Gaiman /\ Doctor Who.
19:37:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That's why I'm bringing the continuation back for you.
19:37:54 * pikhq passes Phantom_Hoover a continuation. Be sure to retain the current one!
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19:38:40 <pikhq> Man, continuation-passing style time travel.
19:38:55 <pikhq> Call it with yourself as an argument!
19:39:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Moreover, what's the probability that I'll meet you after time travel?
19:39:16 <impomatic> I'm struggling to find a domain name. I'm after something like tinycode.com
19:39:41 <impomatic> All the decent names are taken, but most are just parked :-(
19:40:58 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ghci; :m +IOT; continuation (fromReality "Phantom_Hoover")
19:42:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: continuation isn't a Cont function is it?
19:43:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... No. That was a bit erroneous.
19:43:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It will take you to a theater I rented for the sole purpose of displaying that episode.
19:43:53 <pikhq> I stole a lot of money and then made the money not have been stolen while still possessing the money.
19:44:26 <aliseiphone> It used to be entertaining not-sci fi. Now it's vaguely entertaining *anti*-sci fi.
19:44:29 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... Okay, UK citizenship hereby revoked.
19:44:43 <aliseiphone> Under control of a fanboy trying to leave his mark
19:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I've been getting more dissatisfied with it, but in any case NEIL GAIMAN
19:45:12 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Deny it if you want. It's the truth!
19:45:31 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, none of this affects the fact that IT'S NEIL GAIMAN
19:46:25 <aliseiphone> Can we make everything awesome by connecting it to Gaiman? Let's start with amanda fucking palmer and trace outwards.
19:46:41 <pikhq> Read you some Gaiman.
19:47:01 <aliseiphone> I dislike doctor who now; but this is joking
19:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> By the way, have I stated my outrage at the absence of vol. 5 of The Sandman from ANYTHING.
19:50:41 <aliseiphone> Still a scientologist no matter the generations.
19:51:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, but I can understand more if it's because of your parents.
19:53:33 <aliseiphone> "His father's position as a public relations official of the Church of Scientology"
19:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not as if he was sane, then became a Scientologist.
19:54:00 <Ilari> Hmm... I should make pages for esolangs I have designed on Esowiki...
19:55:21 <Ilari> I wonder if I even have decent descriptions for first two (apart from reference implementation code).
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20:18:19 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, where were you yesterday?
20:20:15 <fizzie> You should be! Being on-channel is the stern duty of everyone, no excuses.
20:20:30 * pikhq is on-channel even when sleeping
20:20:41 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Say, why the iPhone while freedom-having?
20:21:28 <Sgeo> aliseiphone is free?
20:22:35 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Long story. Right now fixing the shit laptop.
20:23:23 <aliseiphone> fizzie: People have good reason to fear for me when I'm not here :P
20:24:25 <fizzie> I guess, it was just the tone.
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20:40:53 <aliseiphone> Should I upgrade to sp3 before disabling product activation?
20:41:13 * Sgeo is a Windowser, but doesn't know the answer
20:41:16 <pikhq> You should totally, totally slipstream SP3.
20:41:23 <Sgeo> Wouldn't it depend on how you disable it?
20:41:37 <Sgeo> I'd imagine some ways might not block upgrades, and some would
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20:42:03 <Sgeo> Or just listen to pikhq
20:42:57 <aliseiphone> So upgrade to sp3 disable wga disable activation?
20:43:18 <Sgeo> sp0 will not work on my comp
20:48:15 <pikhq> Until you put it on the Internet and get every virus simultaneously.
20:49:17 <pikhq> aliseiphone: You'd still have them all.
20:49:22 <pikhq> You'd just be swapping forever.
20:50:12 <pikhq> Also, it *will* cease to be bearable once it's on the Internet.
20:50:28 <pikhq> Not even "once you do something stupid like run the ILOVEYOU email".
20:50:39 <pikhq> *Packets come in and you're fucked.*
20:50:52 <pikhq> Then you're fucked.
20:51:00 <pikhq> Clean it and install again.
20:51:37 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:51:52 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:51:57 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:52:07 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:52:12 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:52:36 <aliseiphone> Shut up and use your brain. I can't install sp3 without downloading it
20:52:50 <pikhq> Use a different system to download the SP3 EXE.
20:52:53 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:53:09 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
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20:53:28 <pikhq> Seriously, XP SP0 is the least secure system ever.
20:53:45 <aliseiphone> Which is why I only connect for the time I load a page.
20:53:55 <pikhq> I am not kidding when I say that *putting it on the Internet* gets it infected.
20:54:41 <pikhq> *YOU COULD BE INFECTED BY A FUCKING IMAGE ON ONE OF THOSE WEBSITES FOR GODS SAKE*.
20:55:53 <pikhq> You are running an arbitrary-native-code-execution-engine on your system and feeding it sites from the Internet. Wipe the fucking drive.
20:56:12 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me that I once got attacked before routing tables were updated (which happened few seconds after connection was up).
20:56:53 <pikhq> You ran unpatched IE from an unpatched XP system. In short, you are fucked.
20:57:17 <aliseiphone> You are putting blind ideology before the facts.
20:58:05 <pikhq> The facts are: you'd be more secure if you were accessing the web soley via downloading arbitrary COM files and running them in DOS, if only because hardly anyone bothers to attack DOS any more.
20:58:30 <aliseiphone> pikhq: You know I am going to run a scanner after upgrading.
20:59:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Won't necessarily help. Many viruses, once installed, will patch virus scanners so they don't get detected.
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21:00:23 <pikhq> You're running the least secure OS with virtual memory.
21:02:44 <Deewiant> I may've made a bugmenot account for it, can't remember
21:03:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: "About NetHack: between hurworth and neasham. (bulfinch's mythology, by alexandre dumas): anya, get out of spain. one finds all kinds. (...)"
21:03:42 <Deewiant> Then I probably did, because I think there wasn't one when I got it
21:04:56 <Deewiant> Can't remember which version; it might say on the page.
21:11:07 <aliseiphone> Winstaller 4 needs sp2. Sp2 won't install without muinder requires net requires winstaller
21:11:48 <Ilari> aliseiphone: Install some more secure browser and use that and forget the SP?
21:12:20 <aliseiphone> Ilari: But then pikhq will rape me until I smash it with a hammer.
21:14:27 <aliseiphone> Deewiant: Can you upgrade to sp2 using an xpsp2 disk?
21:16:38 <Madk> CHEKKIT OUT http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF2C
21:16:46 <Madk> My first compiler, rather than an interpreter
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21:17:26 <Madk> because it's awesome
21:17:44 <Madk> it's because I want to only have links on my user page
21:17:56 <Madk> and I have to put that somewhere
21:18:02 <fizzie> If it translates brainfuck to C, you can barely call it a compiler; also.
21:18:23 <Madk> I'm not spamming.
21:18:37 <Madk> I haven't created a page if it wasn't for something useful
21:19:03 <Madk> I've implemented all but my newest esolang idea, and I've implemented a handful of previously unimplemented languages
21:19:22 <aliseiphone> A BF to C compiler takes about 10 lines. There are thousands.
21:19:41 <Madk> I saw a link to one on the BF page
21:19:54 <Madk> very little, though
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21:37:57 <ais523> Madk: some people have been complaining about some of your edits to Esolang; I've given you some advice at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Madk which should hopefully help to avoid problems in the future
21:43:28 <Madk> as for the first point, I don't recall doing anything like this.
21:43:46 <Madk> I intentionally try to only link to another page once
21:44:31 <fizzie> ais523: You are the very model of a modern mediator.
21:44:57 <ais523> Madk: ah, OK; just relaying what people have said, it's great that you're doing that already
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21:46:38 <Gregor> fizzie: He's information vegetable, animal and mineral!
21:47:39 <pikhq> Gregor: That's the very model of a singularitarian, sorry.
21:48:44 <fizzie> Also I could add that if you want a link to BF2C, you could just link to "Brainfuck#Implementations" (isn't that the section-link syntax?) with BF2C in the visible link text; anyone reading will probably understand that the link conceptually points to the one implementation named in it.
21:50:03 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's the correct syntax
21:53:11 <Madk> erm... I did not see that there were other compilers. Had I seen any, I would've kept to my business with it
21:53:19 <Madk> I saw esotope, yes, but no others
21:53:34 <pikhq> There's gigantic tons of compilers.
21:53:52 <ais523> Madk: see external resources section in http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck
21:53:59 <Madk> Then thst was judt my mistake :/
21:54:21 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, did you make that compiler to x86 assembly, by the way?
21:54:21 <Madk> no, there are a ton of interpreters, of course
21:54:34 <oerjan> <pikhq> "Tokyo", for instance, was actually written as "toukyau"...
21:54:43 <Madk> but only the one seems to be capable of getting a bf source file into an executable
21:54:45 <oerjan> that's almost the english pronunciation isn't it :D
21:54:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I did make one, yeah.
21:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, it kind of says in the article that BF was *created* to be compiled.
21:55:02 <fizzie> There is also at least one called "BF2C": http://bf2c.sourceforge.net/
21:55:05 <pikhq> oerjan: Also, I screwed that up. "Toukiyau".
21:55:14 <Madk> My apologies, as I said
21:55:38 <ais523> isn't awib a compiler?
21:55:47 <ais523> that one's notable due to being written in BF itself
21:55:59 <pikhq> It generates ELFs. Directly.
21:56:02 <fizzie> It's notable due to the awesome name.
21:56:31 <fizzie> "Also Written In BrainFuck is also written in brainfuck."
21:56:39 <Madk> yes, I get it, I get it.
21:56:52 <oerjan> <pikhq> ("ye" has *ceased to be a valid syllable in Japanese*.)
21:57:17 <oerjan> wait, you mean their currency isn't actually pronounced "yen" in japanese?
21:58:01 <ais523> oerjan: "yen" would be a different syllable to "ye"
21:58:39 <pikhq> ais523: I should've said "mora", not "syllable".
21:58:42 <Ilari> Hmm... Postselection time travel... Requires nonlinear QM... Wouldn't that imply that BQP would equal PSPACE?
21:58:42 <oerjan> ais523: um yen(n) was the example pikhq used of ye.
21:58:51 <pikhq> Japanese is a mora-structured language.
21:59:06 <pikhq> "ye" is no longer a mora. It was a few hundred years ago.
21:59:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Their currency is pronounced "en", yes. Also, "Iwo Jima" is not pronounced that way any more.
22:00:20 <pikhq> The *kana* for wo only exists for the object particle, and is only read *as* "wo" in a few dialects of Japanese. (... And rock music.)
22:01:47 <pikhq> If it's got "wo", "kwa", "ye", "yi", "we", or "wi" in it, the romanisation is horrifically wrong.
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22:04:11 <pikhq> And if it's got "di" or "du", it's suspect...
22:04:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:05:09 <pikhq> (nowadays the voiced "t" in those are read "ji" and "zu", *but* some romanisations will do those as "di" and "du", to disambiguate with the voiced "s", read "ji" and "zu")
22:08:11 <aliseiphone> Bjorn was deathly afraid of beetles. DEATHLY afraid.
22:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it possible to prevent stack overflow when recursive calls come in the middle of a function?
22:08:59 <ais523> ugh, I'm having an argument (turning into a bit of a flamewar) in another channel as to what proportion Macs are out of all computers in existence, even broken ones
22:09:11 <ais523> someone's claiming it's less than 0.01%, I'm claiming it's a lot higher, around 1% or even a bit more
22:09:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you will instead get absurdly large continuations.
22:10:04 <pikhq> Alternately, you will have absurdly large *thunks*.
22:10:33 <ais523> aliseiphone: I don't know, but I doubt it matters
22:10:40 <ais523> let's say anything marketed by apple with "Mac" in its name
22:11:03 <ais523> aliseiphone: it may have been at the time, but more recently produced computers probably massively outnumber Apple IIs
22:11:28 <pikhq> ais523: All computers in existence?
22:11:38 <pikhq> That depends on how you define "computer".
22:11:52 <ais523> the discussion seems to be assuming "desktop or laptop/notebook computer"
22:12:33 <ais523> aliseiphone: Mac market share has historically never been above 10%
22:12:38 <ais523> so how could it be above 10% now?
22:12:53 <pikhq> I'd call it 2%-ish.
22:12:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: he said he saw thousands of computers working in tech support
22:13:11 <ais523> I suspect he may have been a Windows tech support person, in which case of course he was only called out to Windows shops
22:13:55 <ais523> probably, only Microsoft knows
22:13:56 <pikhq> ais523: I'd suspect Mac computers go in less.
22:14:08 <ais523> they have more accurate PC and Windows share figures than anyone else
22:14:13 <pikhq> What with them being somewhat better hardware and less flakey OS.
22:14:46 <ais523> certainly, I can imagine that there are a lot more low-quality PCs than low-quality Macs
22:15:18 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the shortest sequence of letters with no Google hits is
22:15:25 * ais523 guesses 5 or 6 letters
22:15:28 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Still work.
22:15:58 <aliseiphone> How do i install sp2 when it rejects my key?
22:16:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not
22:16:36 <ais523> 5 or 6 seems to be the right level to make combinations that all those pages miss by chance
22:16:49 <ais523> (it's what made me reject 4)
22:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, but Google doesn't accept a lot of printable ASCII
22:19:57 <pikhq> ais523: *Characters*, or letters in ASCII?
22:21:48 <ais523> I said "letters" for a reason, but forgot to qualify which language
22:32:51 <oerjan> ais523: haven't found one yet, there's a particular kind of spam that keeps getting me a single hit on things like tpqxkc
22:33:08 <ais523> although, I'm surprised you're actually trying
22:33:29 <oerjan> i first tried with 5 but couldn't get it below a few hundred hits
22:33:53 <oerjan> well i'm only trying with very unpronouncable things containing rare letters, obviously
22:36:02 <oerjan> (until google gets to these logs, anyhow >:D)
22:36:57 <aliseiphone> Notify, Talk, Queue, Kill, eXecute, Create.
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22:57:32 <oerjan> ais523: see non-hit above in case you didn't notice
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22:58:26 <ais523> oerjan: yep, I noticed
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23:19:28 <Ilari> Haha: "'the ruthlessness of a COBOL compiler forces you to create readable, structured code' [...] You should ALTER your views on this subject.".
23:21:01 <Ilari> There probably isn't esolang with implments segmentation and ALTER like COBOL...
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23:27:03 <oerjan> !haskell replicate' n x = x : replicate (n-1) x; kol = concat . zipWith replicate' kol $ cycle [1,2]; main = print $ take 100 col
23:27:15 <oerjan> !haskell replicate' n x = x : replicate (n-1) x; kol = concat . zipWith replicate' kol $ cycle [1,2]; main = print $ take 100 kol
23:27:18 <EgoBot> Stack space overflow: current size 8388608 bytes.
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23:45:17 <Madk> I'm trying to come up with an esolang idea that is radically different from anything already existing. I'm trying to fugure something out that is as far from a turing machine as possible, but would perhaps still be turing-complete
23:45:37 <ais523> those esolangs are the best esolangs
23:45:41 <Madk> The best things I've come up with would be totally unusable for writing a program
23:45:42 <ais523> although ofc it's quite hard to think up that sort of thing
23:45:55 <ais523> and if it's TC, it's unlikely to be completley unusable
23:46:32 <Gregor> Start with recursive neural networks. And work from there? :P
23:46:35 <Madk> the best things I've been able to come up with are along the lines of 1D cellular automata
23:47:10 <Madk> gregor: that wouldn't be any good, I don't want the program to be unpredictable, just different
23:47:36 <Gregor> I said START from there, not FINISH there, it's up to you to figure out how to make it deterministic (or at least deterministic in certain cases)
23:51:49 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
23:51:58 <Gregor> <CakeProphet> That's what they get for pinging me! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH
23:52:00 <oerjan> SevenInchBread: YOU WERE THEIR ONLY HOPE AND NOW IT'S TOO LATE
23:52:18 <Gregor> oerjan: Gee, we both went in such different directions with that :P
23:52:52 <oerjan> great minds think radically different
23:53:29 <oerjan> alas 1d cellular automata aren't new either
23:53:33 <CakeProphet> oerjan: but I think that great minds think the same!
23:53:52 <Madk> I didn't say they were good ideas, just my best
23:54:37 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
23:54:46 <Madk> I'm putting off gerbil because pathfinding is going to be horrific .-.
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00:25:58 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/teddy.gif
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00:41:09 <Gregor> augur: http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif THIS HAS NO CONVERSATIONAL RELEVANCE
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00:43:01 <oerjan> except for the nom, which was obviously added because of it
00:43:33 <Gregor> oerjan: Actually I made a more optimized version and had to give it a new name :P
00:44:05 <Gregor> I stole that from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 , which you should watch if you feel you're no longer in need of your sanity.
00:46:44 <oerjan> oh i'm definitely in need of my sanity. now if i could just remember where i put it...
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01:54:14 <ais523> wow, it's pretty late for you to be online
01:54:27 <alise> I'm usually on at this time. Why?
01:54:47 <ais523> I mean, you normally come online earlier
01:54:50 <ais523> and would be leaving around now
01:54:59 <alise> Not around now, no.
01:55:06 <ais523> also, I note it's a Monday, and yet you aren't on your iPhone
01:55:26 <ais523> presumably because you don't have to go there until what normal people consider the morning?
01:55:34 <oerjan> it's only 2 hours since aliseiphone left
01:55:57 <alise> ais523: yes; I haven't slept yet.
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02:20:42 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
02:20:52 <CakeProphet> god damnit IRC. stop disconnecting me and changing my nick.
02:21:24 <ais523> I'm just being sociable
02:22:07 <ais523> humour generally needs to actually be funny
02:23:03 <alise> bjorn vork'd stairs were up the -- he saw light -- trod onwards what's this spicy light ; frightening events -- trod trod trod. stairs. more stairs and steeper now vertical climb screes rocks bjorn hooks on with teeth as legs fall... stretch crumble scrummage up towards top, what's top. angel angel okay "this is " what is "the thing you need--" he fell "--bjorn!" caught by angel with newfound adolescent delight & fury he climbed. -- rocks fall up up vertica
02:23:04 <alise> l pushing so gravity makes glonk glonk go feet plod in light & bjorn climbs & bjorn climbs & bjorn climbs & it's the top & he's there & unfantastic light humbly casts upon him & he absorbs it in & it is nothing much & it is nothing special & it is home
02:25:49 <alise> Bjorn is, like, the most confused person ever.
02:25:54 <alise> His life keeps jumping wildly between uncorrelated events.
02:26:02 <alise> Why did I say uncorrelated?
02:26:05 <ais523> you don't need to fix that
02:26:11 <ais523> uncorrelated seems just fine in that context
02:26:15 <alise> But I didn't mean uncorrelated, not really.
02:27:52 <alise> oerjan: i was thinking "The Chronicles of the Life and Times of Bjorn, [long list of ridiculous titles]"
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02:36:02 <alise> there once was a person who bjorn
02:36:02 <alise> had good inkling of thought to scorn
02:36:02 <alise> but this man did say
02:36:02 <alise> "i'll tell you, okay,
02:36:02 <alise> why and how are our fates are born."
02:36:05 <alise> "tell me young man with grandeoise plans,
02:36:07 <alise> do you know of the various & diverse clans?"
02:36:09 <alise> to bjorn's reply, the young man devised
02:36:11 <alise> a suitable response without any lies:
02:36:13 <alise> "those issues are those of man's."
02:36:17 <alise> "codswallop, trivial and wrong;
02:36:19 <alise> i'll have you singing my song
02:36:21 <alise> before the end of the day
02:36:23 <alise> your thoughts will sway
02:36:25 <alise> and you'll realign your ways, dear mong."
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02:45:15 <alise> 23:33:49 * cheater99 suddenly finds a forgotten stash of porn movies.
02:45:16 <alise> 23:43:00 * pikhq is certain you will soon regret finding it
02:47:01 <Gregor> `addquote <cheater99> incest is best
02:47:03 <HackEgo> 197|<cheater99> incest is best
02:47:16 <cheater99> you probably didn't know alise is actually my younger sister
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02:49:41 <alise> en-GB-oed is weird
02:49:43 <Gregor> Ahhhhh. I didn't realize he'd actually gotten the sex change operation.
02:49:51 <alise> (real-IZE but ana-LYSE)
02:50:46 <alise> Wouldn't the appropriate word in that case be "she"? :P
02:51:07 * pikhq proposes we remove gendered pronouns
02:51:32 <alise> Suggest us something that isn't obviously a good idea.
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02:52:49 <cheater99> we should start communicating with direct mental imagery.
02:53:15 <alise> yeah but then imagine communicating with /you/.
02:53:27 <alise> "I AM PROJECTING PORNOGRAPHY ONTO YOUR VISUAL CORTEX."
02:53:52 <cheater99> it would be the most mind-twisting imagination of R^n for n>3.
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02:54:16 <pikhq> oerjan: Turn English into pro-drop? Amenable.
02:54:36 <cheater99> you wouldn't stand a moment, alise.
02:54:57 <alise> somehow i don't believe cheater99 can actually see in >3D.
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02:55:07 <pikhq> Having removed, English becomes concise. Like.
02:55:18 <cheater99> you obviously don't know jack, alise
02:55:43 <cheater99> my mental prowess is beyond anything you could put a finger on.
02:55:44 <alise> pikhq is dumb. think wants a simpler language; think will find hopes are misguided, as language becomes incomprehensible.
02:55:56 <alise> cheater99: only matched by your humbleness.
02:57:01 <pikhq> alise: Incomprehensible? No worse than Japanese; pro-drop too.
02:57:30 <alise> pikhq: how do you say "him and I" in Japanese?
02:57:36 <pikhq> cheater99: And they are hardly ever used.
02:57:43 <alise> how do say "and" in Japanese? :P
02:58:15 <alise> pikhq: it was a joke
02:58:19 <alise> "him and I", how do you say that.
02:58:21 <cheater99> pikhq: they're hardly ever used but they're not inexistant
02:59:21 <pikhq> cheater99: They're also etymologically derived from not-pronouns. "Anata" is something akin to "in that direction", kore is "the item over here", boku is "your humble servant", omae is "Honorable person over there", kimi is "Lord", and so on...
02:59:55 <cheater99> polish doesn't use pronouns for day to day simple conversation
03:00:04 <alise> so without pronouns, are all confused; but is simpler, so all rejoice, seems.
03:00:12 <cheater99> it uses a lot of them, but not personal ones
03:00:27 <pikhq> alise: Not confused; quite simple to understand.
03:00:42 <cheater99> there are special rules because the information carried by many pronouns is carried in the words surrounding them.
03:00:56 <alise> pikhq: but throw away metasyntactic version of "pikhq"? why?
03:01:23 <pikhq> Japanese just omits pretty much any part of the sentence that is obvious.
03:01:46 <alise> heh, a virus is a stand-alone program; a worm can only infect another program
03:01:51 <alise> talk about a reversal
03:03:29 <cheater99> where did you get those definitions from
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03:05:12 <alise> wikipedia using it offhand was what inspired me to make that remark; but i knew it already
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03:06:11 <alise> they're the widely-accepted ones ...
03:06:31 <cheater99> they're widely accepted if you suck
03:07:30 <cheater99> alise: what sort of music do you listen to?
03:07:47 <alise> i listen to white noise and the sound of GLOBAL WARMING
03:08:03 <cheater99> you don't listen to CESIUM DECAY????????????????
03:08:16 <alise> well that's a given
03:09:35 <cheater99> do you ever listen to electronic music, alise?
03:10:00 <alise> yes, sometimes i listen to the 50hz tone underlying our electrical system.
03:10:39 <alise> innocent babies dying
03:10:52 <cheater99> got any more insanely smart remarks, or can we get on with the conversation.
03:11:04 <oerjan> that's not electronic, alise
03:11:21 <alise> cheater99: nope and nope
03:11:26 <cheater99> unless their dying is actuated through midi
03:11:52 <Gregor> http://codu.org/zee/vg/zee5.ogg Technically electronic music! :P
03:12:14 <cheater99> alise: give me a useful answer to my question, or DIE
03:12:33 <Gregor> alise: The correct response was "NO U"
03:12:54 <alise> http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/happy-japanese-kirby-angry-american-kirby-500
03:12:57 <alise> KIRBY HATES THE UNITED STATES.
03:13:01 <Gregor> Erm, that was a mislink above
03:13:05 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/vg/zee5.ogg Technically electronic music! :P
03:13:18 <cheater99> i don't think i've ever finished kirby for snes
03:13:35 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/yce2x.jpg --> http://i.imgur.com/PrR02.jpg
03:13:39 <alise> america just ruins everything
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03:14:35 <cheater99> alise: do you listen to electronic music?
03:14:42 <Gregor> alise: From nondescript to "why is this featureless semihuman mess on my box"
03:14:53 <alise> i listen to electronic moo-sic
03:14:57 <alise> the sounds of androidal cows
03:15:08 <alise> Gregor: Hey, I think the first image is pretty.
03:15:15 <cheater99> you're not being very friendly today
03:15:26 <alise> cheater99: but you're being inane
03:15:28 <Gregor> As opposed to all other days.
03:15:28 <pikhq> alise: Do electric cows dream of robots?
03:16:01 <pikhq> alise: Also, AAAGH THE AWFUL ART DEAR GOD WHAT SORT OF MONSTER WOULD DO THAT
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03:16:44 <alise> That game, incidentally, violates the GPL: http://astrange.ithinksw.net/ico/
03:17:11 <alise> cheater99: if you don't like me, maybe stop talking to me
03:18:13 <alise> i should sleep soon.
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08:40:42 <Ilari> Hah... Found out why pushes were failing sometimes: Socat was involved and it was configured with default half-close timeout of half second(!). So if the remote end didn't respond in half second, socat would close the connection completely, causing failure. :-/
08:42:54 <Ilari> The source end half-closes the connection when its done and then starts to wait for response...
08:44:15 <Ilari> Half a second is quite low timeout...
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09:03:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have a pano coming up later. Need to be anonymised (some faces blurred) first.
09:05:05 <AnMaster> also taken with a friend's camera. So kind of different quality (slightly worse than mine)
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10:29:25 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, do you have to go to the unit in the summer?
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11:53:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vNTFzag
11:55:28 <fizzie> Looks very... bucolic.
11:56:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh sure. kollonilottsområde
11:57:16 <fizzie> It sounds like it's the same thing as fi:siirtolapuutarha, but I don't know if there's an English word for it at all.
11:58:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does it mean though?
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12:02:30 <fizzie> It's this sort of gardeny area divided into (rather small) pieces of land you can rent. Usually there's a small cottage on it, where they take us every midsummer even though there's nothing much to do there, and I just end up playing around with the phone all the time, and... I think I got a bit sidetracked there.
12:03:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, though I'm not sure it is rented here
12:03:29 <AnMaster> it's my grandparents who owns it
12:05:06 <AnMaster> why on earth does *.tif default to opening in evince?
12:05:11 <AnMaster> and where does one change that in gnome
12:05:30 <fizzie> Hmn. Around here I've understood the land is owned by the city, though the cottages I think are built/bought by the tenants.
12:06:16 <fizzie> Oh, and there's some sort of technical endless waiting-list if you want a spot (since all the areas are totally full), but it's completely useless, since no-one ever leaves; they just keep passing the place on to friends and relatives if someone gets fed up.
12:06:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, I know my grandfather (mother's side) build the large house that is partly outside the picture by himself many many years ago. The small brown one is more recent iirc, and he didn't build that
12:07:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm kind of surprised it turned out that well with a mean control point distance of 9.5 and max of 49.8
12:08:09 <fizzie> Foliage is an "easy" target when it comes to seams, enblend can usually make it disappear somewhere inside the mess.
12:08:54 <AnMaster> true but the seams in the preview were all on houses
12:09:57 <fizzie> Here's an aerial photo of one local "siirtolapuutarha" place: http://kartat.eniro.fi/m/pAZrf -- I think it's a non-Flash thing, though it does need all those scripts.
12:10:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, on the other hand, I had to do all control points by hand. The automatic ones all ended up in the white sky and WAY wrong
12:11:06 <fizzie> There's that one cloud-detecting heuristic, I've been wondering if I should try it some time. Of course it wouldn't really help if all the points are there.
12:11:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't work on overcast skys
12:11:49 <AnMaster> and yes on several they were all up there
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12:13:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, for example it ended up hiding that "portal" before, matching up the bushes on either side. And no, the controlpoints only did image pairs
12:13:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, however, it did put all in the sky like in opposite corners
12:14:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and source material was jpg, couldn't find raw on that camera.
12:15:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and I couldn't get my card reader on my laptop to work. It did accept the XD card from the camera, but it never showed it in dmesg or elsewhere
12:18:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you see the bird btw?
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12:20:19 <fizzie> Probably not, since I can't seem to find a bird now either, even though you said there's one.
12:20:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, in front of that person standing there
12:20:42 <AnMaster> it's a http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgoxe
12:21:29 <fizzie> That's fi:talitiainen, or more colloquially known as fi:talitintti.
12:25:02 <fizzie> This is again very off-topicy for this channel, but I was recently linked to http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/?sound=0 and can't resist the impulse to pass it on; palette-rotation based animation is almost a lost art nowadays.
12:25:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you see the other birds
12:25:23 <AnMaster> I only see them because I know they were there
12:25:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, look on the opposite side to the first bird
12:26:21 <AnMaster> there are some potatos left over from dinner there and some birds next to that
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12:27:03 <fizzie> Oh, there. Yes, they're rather unobvious.
12:27:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think at least one is either http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A5sparv or http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilfink
12:28:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, is kind of hard to tell the difference between those
12:28:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I think I have some close images on them
12:30:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, first image http://omploader.org/vNTF0bA
12:30:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, and second http://omploader.org/vNTF0bQ
12:32:43 <fizzie> Your Wikipedia links are fi:varpunen (lit. "small twig") and fi:pikkuvarpunen (lit. "small small twig"), respectively; our bird nomenclature leaves something to be desired.
12:34:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, tree sparrow and house sparrow it seems to be for English
12:35:09 <AnMaster> and um. that very first one next to the person: "great tit"
12:36:13 <fizzie> Yes, there's tons of horrible, horrible, even-worse-than-oerjan-level puns on tits.
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13:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Has anyone made a language that's easily compilable into a Turing Machine?
13:29:30 <Slereah> Brainfuck is pretty easy to compile in a Turing machine
13:30:02 <Slereah> I made a language that is a Turing machine, which is even easier to compile into a turing machine!
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13:32:40 <Slereah> Well, neither are obfuscated, but high level languages aren't common, and I doubt they'd be easy to compile into a turing machine
13:32:52 <Slereah> Depends what you mean by high level
13:33:16 <Slereah> Turing himself defined a set of functions for his machine to make it easier to program in, does it qualify?
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13:37:22 <Slereah> He defined functions that can be used to find a character on the tape, go back to a certain marker, copy characters, erase particular symbols, replace elements, stuff like that
13:37:36 <Slereah> Which is extremely easy to compile into a turing machine
13:37:43 <Slereah> I tried to implement that, but got lazy
13:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> By "high-level" I mean abstracted from the details of tape management and the like.
13:39:31 <Madk> I'm making BrainFuck 5D
13:39:52 <Madk> It's BrainFuck with 5 dimensions to maneuver the memory pointer in
13:40:01 <Madk> it's awesome :D
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13:40:31 <Slereah> I mean, making brainfuck in any number of dimension isn't particularly hard
13:40:41 <Madk> it's still fun
13:41:57 <Madk> making the arbitrarily large array work in 5 dimensions, perhpas?
13:42:15 <Madk> that's turning out to be pretty fun
13:42:25 <Madk> right, but it's still a challenge
13:42:27 <Slereah> You just make an array of array of array of array
13:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> In a language with arbitrarily sized arrays in the first place.
13:42:57 <Madk> the language I'm working in has extremely inefficient arbitrary arrays
13:43:01 <Slereah> If you want to make it challenging, try doing it with a folding function :3
13:43:12 <Madk> I have a bit of a system I've worked out for myself
13:43:21 <Madk> but it's for 1d arrays.
13:43:42 <Madk> so yeah, I get to rewrite it
13:43:52 <Madk> not *too* hard, really, but not easy, for sure.
13:44:23 <Slereah> Brainfuck is easy to implement, really, whatever the nuances
13:44:33 <Madk> the interesting part isn't so much resizing the array when needed
13:44:46 <Madk> it's handling when the memory pointer moves into negative indexes
13:45:08 <Madk> and finding a good way to check 5 of these at once isn't the most relazing thing in the world
13:46:07 <Madk> It's called BlitzMax.
13:46:25 <Madk> not a lot of people know about it, but we who use it love it
13:48:05 <Madk> also, it's expensive, so that deters a lot of people, too.
13:48:43 <Slereah> It's not expensive if you PIRATE IT
13:51:13 <Madk> slereah: It's by an independant developer who listens to the community. Don't steal from the little people ._.
13:51:30 <Madk> phantom_hoover: ehhh.. that's mostly because of its predecessors
13:51:43 <Madk> they were totally basic, but BlitzMax is more OO
13:51:52 <Madk> It's nive because it can do both
13:52:30 <Sgeo> Oh wait, that didn't turn out too well
13:52:31 <Madk> yeah, it's got a basic-like syntax that makes it fast to code and relatively easy to read, but the core OO concepts are stillt here
13:53:02 * Sgeo is at war with Madk .
13:53:28 <Madk> AHHHHHhhh-slience-
13:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I rarely use it, but it's a good language to write quick programs that you're writing for the halibut.
13:54:49 <Sgeo> I think I have more Python experience than any other language
13:55:06 <Madk> It's also good because it's totally cross-platform on PCs - windows, max, and linux, and plans to add support for ARM-processor-based systems
13:55:28 <Madk> It's worth it.
13:55:37 <Madk> give mark silby a chance
13:56:51 <Madk> as in compiler vs interpreter, right?
13:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Compiled into a binary that can be run without it installed.
13:57:10 <Madk> that's why I hate python
13:57:27 <Madk> technically it compiles into x86 assembly
13:57:33 <Madk> but yeah, it compiles
13:57:42 <Madk> *at leat on windows, it does
13:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sorry, clarifying: you hate Python because it's interpreted?
13:58:41 <Sgeo> Can't use it as a C++ substitute, I guess
13:58:59 <Madk> phantom_hoover: that is correct.
13:59:17 <Madk> sgeo: it can import C++, C, and Obj-C code, if that matters to you any
13:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, I still think it's a bad idea to write an esolang interpreter in a commercial language.
13:59:36 * Sgeo was referring to Python
14:00:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it's being written for programmers, so it seems rather bad form to make it impossible to toy with your interpreter without buying the language.
14:00:50 <Madk> they can download the trial if they want to mess with it
14:00:59 <Madk> then hopefully they'll like it enough to buy it :P
14:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Plus, esolang programmers are going to have a high proportion using Linux or BSD or something weirder, so you'll need to supply tonnes of binaries.
14:04:08 <Madk> phantom_hoover: there are 3 options -
14:04:26 <Madk> maps (every object has a key to reference it by),
14:04:31 <Madk> and resizable arrays
14:05:02 <Madk> the arrays are very fast, the linked lists are a tad slower, and maps are not a wise option for intensive data management
14:05:12 <Madk> but they're still there, regardless
14:06:07 <Sgeo> "Pretend that we wrote this echo server for an elementary school, and the PTA has requested that profanities be censored and unechoable. The parents of PTA also happen to be not very bright and have taken the euphemism 4-letter word too literally. They have requested that we block all 4-letter words."
14:06:33 <Sgeo> http://snapframework.com/docs/tutorials/snap-api
14:06:45 <Madk> **** makes absolutely no sense.
14:07:37 <Madk> Arrays are better
14:08:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, true, but what happens when you start appending backwards.
14:08:15 <Madk> things slow down a little
14:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile back and forward are the same for a linked-list tape.
14:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what happens when a program accesses cell 100, flips it around a bit, then sets it back to 0?
14:11:12 <Madk> I don't know what you're trying to describe, but my system works fine :/
14:11:38 <Madk> all my interpreters I've written with arbitrarily size tapes use it
14:12:03 <Madk> I really need to finish my AGBIC entry .-.
14:12:15 <Madk> I've been putting it off for a week now
14:12:49 <Madk> TIGSource A Game by its Cover
14:13:39 <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0
14:16:57 <Madk> Yeah, I have to sqeeze unit movement and handling and an AI opponent into a week
14:17:06 <Madk> gonna be fun, I say.
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14:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, for the 5D Brainfuck, please make the 4D movement commands 'i' and 'u'.
14:27:24 <oerjan> still trying to be radically new? in which case you better first consider Infinifuck
14:27:24 <Madk> I thought as much. To what?
14:27:45 <oerjan> (infinite-dimensional brainfuck)
14:27:58 <Madk> oerjan: right _now_ I'm trying to get some work done on my AGBIC entry
14:28:07 <Madk> haven't touched it in a week
14:28:18 <Madk> stupid esolangs had me distracted :P
14:28:22 <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0
14:28:34 <Madk> TGISource A Game by its Cover competition
14:30:04 * oerjan assumes without clicking that's a competition where you design only the cover of games
14:30:11 <Madk> you assume wrong.
14:30:43 <Madk> We're making games based off fake cartridge.box art
14:30:50 <Madk> that . is meant to be a /
14:31:06 <Madk> hurrah for typos
14:31:22 <oerjan> ah so the cover is given
14:31:28 <AnMaster> btw anyone OS X here knows if mplayer works on it?
14:35:16 <AnMaster> <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0 <-- what console is that cartridge for?
14:36:07 <AnMaster> Madk, yes but checking other ones they use similar cartridge shapes. So they have a collection of blank ones you can photoshop?
14:36:58 <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13392.0
14:37:12 <Madk> Mine and most are from Famicase 2008-2010
14:37:19 <Madk> http://famicase.com/08/index.html
14:38:38 <Madk> anmaster: hold on a second
14:38:44 <oerjan> Madk: oh and paintfuck was all the rage for a short while, although that's only 2d
14:39:10 <oerjan> i think it got reddited and stuff
14:39:16 <AnMaster> suggestion: trefunge extended to higher dimensions
14:39:36 <Madk> anmaster: http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/17046
14:40:17 <AnMaster> Madk, also playing music, would prefer written desc
14:40:22 <oerjan> 107? did they stop because they didn't have room for more than 214 distinct direction characters, or something like that?
14:40:27 <AnMaster> since I'm streaming live music
14:40:42 <Madk> It's where a bunch of japanese people who like retro games come together and make fake cartridge art for fake games
14:41:04 <AnMaster> Madk, yes but where did they get the plastic cases
14:42:47 <AnMaster> Madk, oh and even on my x86_64 at home and such I have no flash of course
14:43:00 <Madk> anmaster: w/e ._.
14:43:07 <AnMaster> sure I'm stuck with my BIOS and various firmware
14:43:33 <AnMaster> and on one computer, nvidia drivers (need 3D, hope the noveau drivers get that soon!)
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14:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Random, probably stupid idea: a CAS written in a proof assistant.
14:50:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Have you checked if your MB happens to be on coreboot's list nowadays? Slim chance, I know, but then you'd get rid of that BIOS.
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14:53:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: And mplayer does run on OS X. (There's also a native simple GUI frontend, which is not so impressive, but the command-line side works like you'd expect.)
15:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the NASM manual, GAS can't properly write 16-bit code.
15:03:40 <fizzie> There is a .code16 directive, but it might be defective.
15:04:20 <fizzie> So you can write 16-bit code, but I'm not sure about "properliness".
15:11:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's just mock greek based on an abba song
15:11:38 <oerjan> it's actually english with greek characters
15:11:54 <oerjan> what's to wonder, then?
15:13:14 <oerjan> http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/abba/dancing+queen_20002554.html
15:13:16 <fizzie> You can objcopy gas-assembled objects into flat binaries, it doesn't need any more special support than that. Or ld with output-format binary.
15:13:22 <oerjan> it's the chorus, naturally :D
15:13:40 <fizzie> I had that "DOS .com out of Linux gcc" mini-example here a while ago.
15:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Iu ar the dansing kuen, iung and suet, wnli seph(?)enten.
15:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> iu kan danz, iu kan iaiph. Aphing the taim oph ior laiph. Oooo.
15:16:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Se that gerl, uatch that sen, digin the dansing kuen."
15:18:45 * oerjan doesn't get _that_, either
15:19:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Have you checked if your MB happens to be on coreboot's list nowadays? Slim chance, I know, but then you'd get rid of that BIOS. <-- yes I checked, even if it was however, I wouldn't want to risk bricking my computer
15:20:03 <cheater99> what's worse is you mistook me for an american
15:20:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: That'd be one big brick. (Away for now.)
15:20:26 <oerjan> you're neither american nor german, just creepy
15:20:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed. either mini-tower sized or thinkpad sized
15:21:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't like the prospect of either
15:21:25 <cheater99> i could send you an incidence matrix
15:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sentient clouds of plasma have to be somewhere, you know.
15:21:32 <cheater99> but i'm not sure your hard drive is 50 petabytes big!!!\
15:22:18 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, what is the average of the position of your particles with respect to Earth?
15:22:39 <oerjan> if you're not german, why are you connected through a german isp
15:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Mycenae was a tourist attraction for the *Romans*.
15:23:48 <cheater99> i have to take up a form that makes it convenient and even possible for your species to understand my communication
15:24:20 <oerjan> well convenient maybe, not sure about the possible
15:24:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or a tourist. Or emigrated
15:25:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, he says he *is* Germany. You cannot get any more German than that.
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15:56:31 <Sgeo> Is it possible that C++ really isn't as bad as I keep thinking it is?
15:57:35 <cpressey> C+ isn't as bad as you think, maybe. But add the extra + on the end, and all bets are off.
15:57:47 <Sgeo> What language would one write, say, an IRC client in, or a web browser
15:57:51 <Sgeo> What's XChat written in?
15:58:05 <Sgeo> Are there decent alternatives to C++ for that sort of thing?
15:58:51 * Sgeo thought that C wasn't intended for applications
15:59:17 <Slereah> LHC things are written in C D:
16:02:48 <Sgeo> I take it that most sane people writing applications in C use something like GLib?
16:05:56 <Sgeo> What do sane people write applications in?
16:06:17 <Phantom_Hoover> From this, I conclude that sane people don't write applications.
16:06:31 <Gregor> Yeah, I was gonna say :P
16:10:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, lots of insane people don't write applications.
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16:16:52 <fizzie> Some of Gnome is written in Vala nowadays.
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16:22:42 <Sgeo> Vala just compiles to C
16:23:04 <fizzie> So did C++, at the start.
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16:23:28 * Sgeo wonders if Vala is sane for general application programming
16:23:38 <Sgeo> Or just for GNOMEish stuff
16:23:41 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> What's XChat written in? <-- C
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16:24:23 <Sgeo> What's Chrome written in?
16:24:41 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I recommend Haskell, C or erlang
16:25:06 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Some of Gnome is written in Vala nowadays. <-- I never heard of Vala
16:25:24 <fizzie> XChat is more Gtk+ than Gnome; I don't think it uses very many Gnome-desktopy libs at all.
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16:25:56 <fizzie> And anyway, people target Gnome with C++ (gtkmm) and C# (Gtk#) somewhat often nowadays too.
16:25:57 <Sgeo> Vala uses reference counting. I remember hearing something bad about reference counting?
16:26:14 <Sgeo> I want to wean myself off of C#
16:26:20 <fizzie> It's not real garbage collection, that's I guess what's mostly bad in it.
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16:26:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, I used GTK#. Buggy stuff
16:26:36 <fizzie> Perl does mostly reference-counting too.
16:27:00 <AnMaster> ref counting works well as long as you have no cycles
16:27:03 <fizzie> I've used Gtk# now and then, and it's certainly been improving a lot.
16:27:16 <Sgeo> Wait, Mono is decent?
16:27:24 <AnMaster> if you _do_ have cycles ref counting is messy
16:27:31 <fizzie> The documentation's still very spotty, and the API glue is not quite all there.
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16:27:49 <AnMaster> Sgeo, sure with GTK# if you want GUI it is quite okay if you insist on C#
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16:27:56 <AnMaster> which is IMO a shitty language
16:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Writing GUIs in a non-strict language seems a bit weird...
16:28:52 <fizzie> Mono's WinForms reimplementation is very non-decent, I hear. Gtk# is probably the best thing for GUI in Monoland.
16:29:06 <fizzie> Oh, and MonoDevelop's a bit buggy.
16:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, what's wrong with C#? Not that I like it or anything; I just don't know what's wrong with it.
16:29:34 <Sgeo> Vala: base call inside constructor
16:29:40 <Sgeo> http://live.gnome.org/Vala/QuickIntroForCSharpProgrammers
16:29:51 <fizzie> I've used Nant for building (it's very ant-inspired) and it works pretty well, but the Emacs C# mode is not so good.
16:30:05 <Sgeo> Does SharpDevelop work with Mono?
16:30:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, saner naming conventions in vala
16:31:21 <Sgeo> Ok, Vala is starting to look really nice
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16:31:38 <AnMaster> Sgeo, and afaik sharpdevelop uses lots of windows specific stuff
16:32:19 <Sgeo> Are there any reasons not to use Vala?
16:32:49 <Sgeo> http://live.gnome.org/Vala
16:32:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh yes for languages that allow it I agree
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16:32:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, like lisp variants
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16:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, Agda has Haskell-derived syntax and has huge freedom in names, but it's hardly used for much.
16:34:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, erlang could allow it
16:34:09 <AnMaster> but you would need to quote everything
16:34:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well function names are any valid atoms
16:34:45 <AnMaster> atoms are either [a-z][A-Za-z0-9_]+
16:35:04 <AnMaster> or '.*' (with \' for embedding ' iirc)
16:35:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so you could have 'This is a function with spaces' and the null function ''
16:35:46 <cpressey> Sane people write applications in GAS or NASM.
16:36:19 <AnMaster> cpressey, btw this work for module names too in erlang
16:36:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, though I could never get the module '' to work
16:36:40 <AnMaster> but ones with spaces worked fine
16:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sane people do cat > /dev/sda and write an OS that is their application.
16:36:57 <Sgeo> Oh, fuck you, Vala
16:37:12 <Sgeo> "Broadly speaking there are two types of data in Vala: reference types and value types."
16:37:57 * Sgeo was thinking more in terms of C# nightmarishness
16:38:03 <AnMaster> (function pointers being kind of their own weird sort of pointers)
16:38:23 <fizzie> No, it's not like C; C doesn't hide the pointeriness. Well, unless you manually hide it inside a typedef, but still.
16:39:29 <Sgeo> Well, in relation to reference vs. value, it's a weird division
16:39:49 <Sgeo> Some types (types that are derived from System.Value) are value. The rest are reference
16:40:05 <Sgeo> And System.Value and derived seem.. a bit magical
16:41:31 <AnMaster> Sgeo, can you derive your own from System.Value. One that isn't an enum I mean
16:41:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I agree that VB sucks
16:41:55 <fizzie> You can write structs in C#; those are value types.
16:42:05 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I don't know if you can do it directly, but "struct" in C# just means derived from System.Value
16:42:14 <fizzie> And it's System.ValueType, not System.Value.
16:42:20 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what about a new integer?
16:42:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: "int" is just a type alias for System.Int, which inherits from System.ValueType.
16:44:00 <fizzie> They're not *very* magic, just a bit magic.
16:44:24 <fizzie> Mostly there's constant-value propagation in the compiler, and literals, that you won't get in your 256-bit float.
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16:45:20 <fizzie> Oh, and you can only have "const" fields of built-in integers.
16:46:04 <AnMaster> and mine would be reference type I bet
16:46:33 <fizzie> Hmm? Well, if you mean you would make it a reference type, then yes.
16:46:39 <fizzie> But if you want a value type, you can have one.
16:46:51 <fizzie> By making a struct, yes.
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16:47:13 <fizzie> Then it's passed by value, and local variables of it contain the value, and so on.
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16:47:46 <fizzie> Go for simplicity, and most of the magic seems to disappear.
16:48:06 <fizzie> Perhaps, though assembler pseudo-ops are a bit magicky.
16:48:25 <fizzie> Things that expand to more than one opcode, I mean.
16:48:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'll take a VLSI design tool :)
16:48:54 <Sgeo> "Vala performs a basic nullability check on the method parameters and return values. "
16:48:57 <fizzie> There's not much magic in BrainFuck, at least according to my unexplicable definition.
16:49:00 <Sgeo> I like this language
16:49:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Perhaps, though assembler pseudo-ops are a bit magicky. <fizzie> Things that expand to more than one opcode, I mean. <-- so more like macros?
16:49:40 <AnMaster> macros are not very magic at all
16:50:00 <fizzie> Yes, but they're macros that you didn't define anywhere.
16:50:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, try this: echo | gcc -dM -E -
16:50:23 <AnMaster> that should give you some built in defines
16:50:53 <AnMaster> only constant defines, none with parameters afaik
16:50:54 <fizzie> Things like MIPS's 32-bit load immediate, which expands to two instructions, since there are no 32-bit immediates in there.
16:51:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, so they are declared in a built in header
16:51:48 <fizzie> No, because you can't undef them with the macro-definition tools.
16:52:04 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: perhaps you could, in some assemblers. I don't think I've ever tried.)
16:52:24 <cpressey> TASM would do short-jump optimization and such. Somewhat magical perhaps.
16:52:46 <fizzie> NASM does that if you ask, but it's so useful I can't be angry at the magick.
16:53:18 <fizzie> Especially since it doesn't do it by default, on the assumption that you'd like to know exactly how wide instructions you get.
16:53:26 <cpressey> I'd rather ask. I don't know if you could turn it off with TASM, it was sometimes annoying. Actually I think that was one of the motivations for the design for it in NASM
16:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the primary design goals was to make it possible to tell what opcode would be generated just by looking an a single source line.
16:54:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, you don't like AT&T syntax?
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16:55:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I find intel syntax pretty much unreadable
16:55:07 <cpressey> Percent signs and dollar signs in programming languages just scream sanity to me.
16:55:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's nothing saner in -4(%ebp, %edx, 4) compared to [ebp + 4*edx - 4].
16:55:13 <Sgeo> Vala supports RAII
16:56:13 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, because you meant mov 3,%eax really
16:56:20 <AnMaster> you messed up the order of the parameters
16:56:28 <Sgeo> Everyone should use Vala!
16:56:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I admit that is somewhat worse perhaps. But still not very bad.
16:56:52 <Madk> I drew this. http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2206/spaceman.png
16:56:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: Like you should use "42 = b" to put value 42 into variable b?
16:57:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, see you put the target first
16:57:10 <Madk> I felt like making something that would remind me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7h0fegS-w&feature=related :P
16:57:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, no like I use "move x to y" or "Ans→X" on my TI-83+
16:57:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You got that wrong; the scale value is last, not second.
16:58:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is insane because it is incorrect
16:58:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's obvious, you see!
16:58:30 <AnMaster> and I'm not putting up with this trolling any more
16:59:14 <fizzie> Really, there's no reason why "target, source" would be any better than "source, target" (it's just a convention); and when it comes to addressing, [rax+4*rbx-8] is obviously better than -8(%rax, %rbx, 4), just because the first one uses the very same arithmetics used in everywhere else.
17:00:13 <cpressey> But which assembler would Buddha use? That's the question we really need to be asking.
17:00:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, besides you forgot %rip. Do that as RIP-relative
17:00:54 <fizzie> I don't think there is a rip-relative form of *that*; there's just rip+displacement.
17:01:18 <fizzie> I don't know how it's written in gas, either. "disp(%rip)"?
17:02:28 <fizzie> Probably not, since you'd like to point at a particular symbol, not try to calculate the actual displacement yourself.
17:03:02 <fizzie> Oh, okay: you write it as "symb at rip(%rip)".
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17:03:38 <AnMaster> I don't think it is symb at rip(%rip)
17:03:50 <fizzie> No, that just adds symbol to %rip. At least according to some very old mailing list messages.
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17:04:08 <AnMaster> ! @item AT&T: @samp{symbol(%rip)}, Intel: @samp{[symbol + 1234]}
17:04:08 <AnMaster> ! Points to the @code{symbol} in RIP relative way, this is shorter than
17:04:08 <AnMaster> ! the default absolute addressing.
17:04:09 <fizzie> But this was when the syntax was being debated, so maybe they stabilized to something else.
17:04:36 <AnMaster> I think the intel sample is wrong
17:05:05 <cpressey> The thing that strikes me is that gas was never intended to be human-writable.
17:05:12 <fizzie> Okay, so how *do* you write "symbol(%rip)" if you mean what it means when compared to everything else, e.g. "value of symbol + %rip"?
17:05:19 <cpressey> Not originally intended, I mean. Just as a backend for compilers.
17:05:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, yes and inline asm is how I use it most often
17:06:08 <cpressey> Inline assembly -- now THAT is magic ;)
17:06:36 <fizzie> Oh, binutils does MMIX already? Heh.
17:07:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, the only non-inline asm I written was an implementation of crt0.o
17:07:39 <AnMaster> don't remember any about that syntax
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17:10:19 <fizzie> Oh, another AT&T dislike: if you want to say "mov eax, [foo+4*eax]" (addressing an array with 4-byte elements, say) you need to do "movl foo(,%eax,4), %eax" -- and that empty field in "(,x)" looks really silly.
17:10:26 <fizzie> Though it's not like you couldn't use Intel syntax with Gas.
17:11:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, why would you want to use that messy intel syntax!?
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17:12:26 <fizzie> Oh, and *yet* another AT&T dislike: if you want a simple "mov eax, [foo]", you have to write it as "movl foo(,1), %eax" -- and that (,1) is even sillier. Quoth the manual: "Note that base and index are both missing, but there is only one `,'. This is a syntactic exception." And we all know exceptions are for bad.
17:12:44 <Sgeo> " and that given a class and a subclass, a generic refined by the subclass can be used as a generic refined by the class."
17:12:57 <Sgeo> I don't want that unless I say I want that!
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17:13:49 <pikhq> Intel syntax is very clean and readable. AT&T syntax is AGONY ITSELF
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17:14:34 <cpressey> Sgeo: IIRC Java does that too, and I'm not sure why, but ISTR some theoretical problem with not doing it ("it's hard")
17:15:11 <Sgeo> Wait, so covariance is the default in Java?
17:15:23 <Sgeo> Or am I misunderstanding covariance or what they're saying here?
17:15:26 <cpressey> Sgeo: I *think* so but I might be hallucinating.
17:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why do you think Intel syntax is messy, though?
17:15:54 <fizzie> Switching gears: why is it that http://esolangs.org/wiki/ redirects visibly to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page while starting from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page you can use the Wiki just well with that arguably nicer URL?
17:16:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, mostly parameter order and stuff like 80h
17:16:52 <cpressey> Also re assemblers, the great majority of the paucity and goriness of their syntaxes comes from the fact that the first ones had to be hand-coded in machine language.
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17:20:31 <fizzie> FWIW, I mostly write 0x80 in NASM, except that the argument for "int" I tend to accidentally write "XXh", for hysterical raisins.
17:21:42 <fizzie> Every environment seems to have its own way of denoting numbers, anyway. Z80 assemblers (and many others like that) use $f00 as a hex prefix, and #01101 for binary-number prefix.
17:22:55 <fizzie> I'd guess gas likes "0xf00" primarily due to it's Unix, and therefore C, and therefore 0x-prefix background.
17:24:07 <fizzie> Most of them understand multiple forms now. Though I'm not sure if gas in intel-syntax mode accepts XXh. Maybe it does.
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17:26:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and re gas + 16-bit: there's a rather funky ".code16gcc" directive, which can take a gcc-generated .s file (GCC itself being unable to generate 16-bit x86) and convert the contents so that you can stick that code into a 16-bit segment and it will run properly. (It's done by adding opcode and operand prefixes as necessary, so it still won't run on a pre-386, but at least it runs in a 16-bit segment.)
17:27:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, but 16-bit is mostly useless except for boot loader code
17:28:19 <AnMaster> I expect going into 32-bit or 64-bit to be the first thing a kernel does
17:28:32 <fizzie> It's close to being the first thing, though it moves stuff around first.
17:29:08 <AnMaster> maybe prints "loading..." or such too
17:29:26 <fizzie> On an EFI system, it's in 32-bit mode all the time, though.
17:29:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It still annoys me that even x86-64 processors need to start in 16-bit real mode.
17:31:13 <fizzie> Oh, and a coreboot system runs in 32-bit mode very early too. :p
17:31:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Here's that DOS .com thing I briefly mentioned; it does .code16gcc: http://pastebin.com/eChGDKDy
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17:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, how does the processor control the hard drive once the BIOS is gone??
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17:34:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It talks directly to the IDE controller.
17:34:42 <pikhq> Also, the BIOS doesn't "go" anywhere.
17:34:54 <pikhq> It ceases to be functional when you're in 32-bit mode.
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17:43:10 <Ilari> What the heck about that .code16gcc example? It appears to use data segment 0 with Axxxx addresses in rmode?
17:43:29 <fizzie> Ilari: If you were here when I talked about it, I did mention it shouldn't work, but works in dosbox.
17:43:38 <fizzie> I suspect dosbox isn't very careful about segment limits.
17:44:16 <fizzie> You can fix it pretty easily by initializing ds to 0xa000 up there and using offsets in [0, 320*200) if you like.
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17:59:37 * Sgeo wonders if Vala would make a good first language.
18:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you want everything abstracted away, so it's easy, or do you want to start low and work up?
18:03:45 <fizzie> In other news, I've been drafting a little language. Now, it's very work-in-progress, and might not ever actually be anything more, but I put some preliminary specs -- boring -- and three example snippets (incl. the ubiquitous cat) -- hopefully a tiny bit less boring -- into my user page at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fizzie
18:04:12 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Vala is GObject without the PAIN and AGONY of GObject.
18:04:47 <fizzie> Just the MADNESS of it?
18:04:57 <fizzie> GObject and Glib are not gui-specific.
18:04:59 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GObject_example.png
18:05:25 <fizzie> I've written some non-GUI C that does glib; it's a reasonably sensible way of getting containers and such in.
18:05:34 <fizzie> For some values of "reasonable", anyway.
18:05:39 <pikhq> Unfortunately, Glib is a painful API.
18:05:43 <fizzie> (Possibly rather small ones.)
18:05:54 <pikhq> Primarily because it's freaking *object-oriented C*.
18:05:58 <fizzie> Well, it's certainly not *pleasant*.
18:15:53 <Gregor-P> And/or an awesomely complex set of terrifying M4 macros.
18:16:25 <pikhq> Vala is impressive in that it makes me not vomit at the thought of using GTK in a program.
18:21:25 <fizzie> So you use... pure XCB?! (Xlib's so last millennium.)
18:22:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No.
18:24:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No.
18:24:20 <fizzie> I'm having hard time thinking up more ridiculous suggestions. Win16?
18:25:09 <pikhq> No, no, no, no, no, and (on Win16) HEEELLL NAW
18:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Raw Enlightenment, xmonad, for the love of god, surely not TWM?
18:25:49 <fizzie> Isn't XFCE basically Gtk, anyway? As far as GUI toolkits go, at least.
18:26:18 <pikhq> fizzie: It uses Gtk, but it's written by people who aren't pro-bloat anti-feature maniacs.
18:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you don't bother with one of those decadent, capitalist GUI things.
18:26:32 <pikhq> (yes, pro-bloat anti-feature)
18:26:34 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No.
18:27:48 <fizzie> (And what does the winner get?)
18:27:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Box
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18:28:02 <pikhq> fizzie: Also, AGONY ITSELF
18:28:32 <fizzie> I know only the Flux, Open and Black boxes.
18:30:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Fluxbox!
18:30:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You win AGONY!
18:30:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Congratulations on your new-won AGONY.
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19:00:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: A rather action-filled one this time: "About NetHack: ! it's done with his intestines hanging out in steaming loops. instead he roared laughter, hands on a scare monster scroll..."
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19:32:08 <jix> Gregor-P: yeah?
19:32:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How farest thou?
19:32:56 <Gregor-P> jix: Nothing, you just haven't been in #esoteric in forever :P
19:33:42 <jix> i haven't?
19:35:34 <jix> that's a bug then
19:41:42 <Gregor-P> I refer of course to an imperial forever, which is finite, not a metric forever.
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19:43:17 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : it is defined as infinity seconds.
19:43:29 <Slereah> While the imperial forever is an infinity of forthnights
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20:28:38 <Ilari> Hmm... How to create wikipages? Just navigate to nonexistent page and tell it to create it?
20:29:18 <Slereah> Type in the name, there will be a "create that page" link
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20:36:24 <fizzie> If you want, you can also just create a link to a nonexistent page, then follow the redlink there, but that way there'll be a broken link visible for a while, which is perhaps ugly.
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21:09:00 <zzo38> Why would it have Fumito Ueda's credit card numbers on it or something?
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21:24:28 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I am quite sure that I do not code better when drinking.
21:29:13 <cpressey> Yeah, he raised the question last week sometime.
21:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So have you only just gotten around to drinking and trying to code?
21:30:13 <cpressey> Well, yes, on the weekend. I mean, I'm sure I have before, but that was years ago, so I wanted some recent data.
21:33:02 <cpressey> Fitting, since this is hardly science.
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21:52:29 <cpressey> Now, as for whether the activity of coding is more *interesting* while under the influence... well what isn't.
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22:17:37 <CakeProphet> cpressey: hahaha. yeah. I can't say I've ever tried.
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22:47:41 <Sgeo> MonoDevelop for Windows apparently doesn't have Vala support :/
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22:49:37 <fizzie> Why would you even use MonoDevelop -- a not-so-hot IDE -- for something so non-Mono as Vala?
22:50:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with MonoDevelop?
22:50:19 <Sgeo> Also, other Vala IDEs... eh
22:50:50 <Sgeo> ValaIDE has no autocompletion or similar, and the other options are text editor stuff, or a barely supported Eclipse thingy
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22:51:28 <fizzie> The bugs, for one thing. The Stetic gets often in a "needs a MonoDevelop restart" confused state where it e.g. can't show properties of anything. Okay, so Stetic problems aren't perhaps an issue for Valailing.
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22:53:31 <fizzie> The autocompletion also seems very annoying to me. If I write "else" after an "if { ... }" block, it has an auto-complete "Template for 'else'" visible, and then if I try to press enter (so that I'd get "else\n", in preparation for a { on the next line) the enter just dismisses the autocomplete and leaves the cursor on the wrong line.
22:54:34 <fizzie> And sometimes (if it hasn't grok'd the preceding code, or things aren't built, or something) it autocompletes something completely ridiculous; like I have a local variable called "a", and I write "a" and space, and it auto-autocompletes in "AddNotification".
22:55:02 <Sgeo> I meant for things like members of .. oh, you're referring to MonoDevelop's autocomplete in particular?
22:55:20 <Sgeo> VS sometimes does that if I'm doing something wrong syntactically
22:55:28 <Sgeo> Like forgetting to give a member a name
22:56:04 <fizzie> Possibly I should just configure the autocomplete to activate only when I specifically ask for it, but then I'd probably never remember to use it.
22:56:20 <fizzie> Also the "GNU/Emacs" keybinding scheme leaves a lot to be desired. :p
22:56:52 <fizzie> (I'd really rather just stay in Emacs, but csharp-mode.el is completely refusing to work with Ubuntu's emacs-snapshot + whatever extra cruft I have collected myself.)
22:57:06 <cpressey> I just bind "pound-violently-on-keyboard" to "do-what-I-mean"
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22:57:40 <fizzie> Oh, oh, and MonoDevelop's version control plugin only supports Subversion, not Git or anything. (Actually, maybe I should get working on that; they do mention Git support as a major TODO item there.)
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22:58:30 <fizzie> Last time I used Eclipse (a while ago) I seem to recall I was equally annoyed at the autocomplete, so my experiences won't perhaps really translate over.
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22:59:49 <fizzie> aliseiphone: Not *seriously*, just, you know, experimenting with things. Many young people do that, there's nothing wrong with me! Stop judging me! You don't understand!
23:01:24 <oerjan> aliseiphone: hey carbonated beverages in your nose _hurts_
23:01:31 <pikhq> cpressey: Don't you like C++, though?
23:01:34 <oerjan> i would not recommend it
23:01:53 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: fizzie: those plots of land are "allotments".
23:02:11 <cpressey> pikhq: "like" is not the verb I'd choose
23:02:46 <aliseiphone> oerjan: once I had cola laughing out my nose
23:03:13 <oerjan> aliseiphone: so that's how you became a traumatized child. got it.
23:03:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: "Mom... Dad... I use C#. (and heroin)" "C#?! Oh my fucking god! *sobs*"
23:03:58 <aliseiphone> oerjan: no that's just how I got my superpowers
23:04:17 <aliseiphone> my brother was mauled by bears in a cave when I was 3
23:05:07 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, what are your thoughts on Vala?
23:05:12 <Gregor-P> (Bears in the gay sense. And his brother was 19. And a willing participant)
23:05:16 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Blurring is reversible. Delete.
23:05:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:07:34 <Sgeo> Night AnMaster
23:09:49 <aliseiphone> Gregor-P: Just tell yourself that while you masturbate to my poor brother.
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23:10:20 <aliseiphone> If Madk ever, ever calls piracy "stealing" again —
23:10:51 <ais523> I'm trying to imagine a situation in which piracy actually is theft
23:11:02 <ais523> I don't see any reason why the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, although it's hard to contrive a situation
23:11:04 <aliseiphone> I'd also say "or advocates commercial software" but, you know, start gently.
23:11:09 <pikhq> ais523: When you replace all instances of "copy" with "move".
23:11:16 <Gregor-P> ais523: How about actual piracy :P
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23:11:22 <aliseiphone> Damn. I'm still a zealot, just one of a different ideology.
23:11:27 <ais523> copyright infringement is nonetheless illegal, but for different reasons for theft being illegal
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23:11:44 <ais523> Gregor-P: I thought of that already
23:11:49 <aliseiphone> ais523: You say it like things have to be illegal for a reason.
23:11:49 <ais523> but I mean, in the colloquial sense
23:12:02 <ais523> aliseiphone: generally, there has to be at least half a reason
23:12:13 <ais523> MPs or Congressmen don't stay brainwashed /all/ the time
23:12:22 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but the reason can easily be that Congressmen are idiots.
23:12:27 <aliseiphone> ais523: One eighth of a reason. Let's say.
23:12:35 <pikhq> See, for instance, how programming is illegal.
23:12:46 <ais523> pikhq: are you referring to software patents?
23:13:28 <ais523> such a pity that In re Proudler isn't precedent-setting
23:13:33 * Sgeo pokes aliseiphone
23:13:40 <fizzie> There might also be someone's reason; like "don't want to lose our money-making business so let's lobby all this stuff is criminal".
23:13:58 <cpressey> Such a pity that it's only illegal, and not criminal, to program.
23:14:06 <cpressey> Should be a felony or something. Much more interesting.
23:14:24 <ais523> cpressey: I imagine most people don't even realise there's a difference between those two words
23:14:32 <pikhq> It has, coincidentally, *ceased* to be a crime to watch DVDs on Linux.
23:14:39 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, yes, if you've played with it, any thoughts?
23:14:52 <ais523> pikhq: it never was in the first place, but there's only just been precedent about it
23:15:14 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: It's C#-ish — not so good; but it is mostly tasteful. Makes GObject sane, wow. Nothing astonishing. But good, good. Please, look at Genie; an alternative "syntax/language" for Vala like Python without the crap.
23:15:17 <ais523> are you talking about the recent ruling that anti-circumvention measures that only prevent use and not copying aren't protected by the DMCA?
23:15:18 <pikhq> ais523: The law made circumvention devices entirely illegal.
23:15:40 <ais523> pikhq: well, the law was about anti-copying circumvention devices
23:15:42 <aliseiphone> I recommend Vala or Genie to anyone who wants to make a GTK+ program, or whatever.
23:15:44 <ais523> and DeCSS doesn't stop copying at all
23:16:07 <ais523> you can just to a byte-for-byte, or even pit-for-pit, copy and it'll work fine
23:16:10 <pikhq> The one that said that circumvention of DRM that is not being used to copy is not protected by the DMCA.
23:16:18 <Sgeo> Any good Vala IDEs for Windows? ValaIDE doesn't really seem to be all that nice, and MonoDevelop on Windows supposedly doesn't support Vala
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23:16:24 <pikhq> There's been *two* landmark cases regarding that law today.
23:16:41 <ais523> aliseiphone: the individual unit of data-carrying on CDs and DVDs
23:16:47 <fizzie> Wasn't it recently that they (in the states) almost made not abiding to website's terms of service a felony (through the computer fraud and abuse and whatever "hacking" laws)? I seem to have read some EFF victory-of-sanity in a higher court on this.
23:16:54 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, does it have an Intellisense-like feature?
23:16:57 <ais523> it's not quite the same as bits, because you can't have two 1s in a row the way they work physically
23:17:05 <ais523> so there's a small level of encoding to translate sets of pits into bytes
23:17:30 <Sgeo> aliseiphone doesn't know everything?
23:17:30 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Probably somewhere. But don't use it! GTK and GLib names are quite short. Make yours too.
23:17:37 <pikhq> US legislators seem to feel that computers are magic devices with completely and utterly different standards of sanity.
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23:17:55 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: No! I was just asking ais523 for the benefit of everyone else.
23:18:00 <ais523> (also, I think you have to have a 1 every now and then in order to stop the laser getting confused as to where on the disk it was)
23:18:04 <Sgeo> I think, besides non-workiness, the lack of Intellisense-like thing is my only complaint about ValaIDE
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23:18:23 <Sgeo> And it's ugly, but that doesn't count as a complaint.
23:18:31 <ais523> Sgeo: hey, aliseiphone isn't a qualified electronic engineer
23:18:34 <pikhq> "Computers mean that IT MAKES SENSE TO MAKE IT A CRIME TO MODIFY ANYTHING. ALSO, MONOPOLIES HELP COMPETITION! DIGITAL IS MAGIC!"
23:18:57 <Gregor-W> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif This is my response.
23:18:57 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Stop becoming dependent on Intellisense. It's a code smell; a symptom.
23:19:13 <ais523> it's OK for me to know something he/she doesn't if it's my (ex-)job to know
23:19:13 <aliseiphone> Windows libraries make it necessary with verbosity.
23:19:23 <ais523> aliseiphone: Intellisense is a symptom of the language, not the IDE
23:19:40 <ais523> I wouldn't like to program in Java without an intellisense equivalent
23:19:46 <ais523> aliseiphone: IRC messages crossing
23:19:46 <Sgeo> It's convenient not having to look stuff up
23:19:50 <pikhq> I wouldn't like to program in Java.
23:20:10 <ais523> for Perl, I make do with M-x perldoc
23:20:19 <ais523> some langs, like Underload, I can do without documentation at all
23:20:39 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, what if I fully know how it works, but the name escapes me offhand
23:21:05 <ais523> aliseiphone: I generally use NetBeans autocomplete to get a list of plausible names, and then load the javadoc
23:21:08 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Then quickly google it. You gotta anyway to research algorithms and stuff.
23:21:30 <ais523> but actually, its main use is that method names are /so long/
23:21:36 <ais523> the ability to "tab-complete" them is massively useful
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23:21:39 <cpressey> Yeah, google is (sad or no) the only means I use to find out the method or function I want.
23:21:56 <ais523> I do most of my programming when I'm not online
23:21:58 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: In fact since glib gtk classes tend to be quite small and docs are good
23:21:58 <Gregor-W> Yeah, in Microsoftland, they like to give obscenely long names to everything. Intellisense just saves you hours of typing.
23:22:05 <ais523> but I have a (legal, I even read the license!) offline copy of the Java documentation
23:22:16 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, I'm thinking about making a .vapi for the AW SDK
23:22:51 <ais523> aliseiphone: heh, even when I'm online I don't use a search engine, but rather the list of all classes in the API documentation
23:22:58 <ais523> I wonder what's up with my huge distrust of search engines
23:23:18 <ais523> perhaps it's knowing how they work
23:23:22 <aliseiphone> ais523: google is like ctrl+f except it knows what site I want
23:23:33 <fizzie> For Mono-stuff I've been using monodoc-browser for docs; it's funny because it has "edit" buttons on every page, plus a "upload contributions" tool to send out your edits.
23:23:38 <aliseiphone> near useless for actually searching though
23:23:55 <fizzie> Almost like a wiki, except not at all!
23:24:12 <ais523> IIRC the published-book subset of Wikipedia comes with a postcard you can use to mail in edits
23:24:16 <ais523> I wonder if anyone uses it
23:24:25 <Gregor-W> Have I mentioned recently that Hackiki is the greatest idea in wiki software since the invention of the wiki itself?
23:24:31 <Gregor-W> I feel I have been negligent in mentioning this fact.
23:24:40 <fizzie> It would be if those contributions would get automatically accepted. I think there's some sort of review thing.
23:24:55 <aliseiphone> Did I just totally outclass your idea or WHAT
23:25:10 <Gregor-W> Uhhhh, you just described a wiki's content, not its software :P
23:25:22 <Gregor-W> You could easily make a gay bear wiki with Hackiki :P
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23:28:34 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, should I make a Lua thing for the AW SDK, or a .vapi for the AW SDK?
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23:31:55 <relet> who was it mentioning nomic the other day? was it here?
23:32:04 <ais523> there are several nomic players here
23:32:14 <ais523> and so conversation can drift to that topic from time to time
23:32:23 <Sgeo> Nomic was mentioned in #nethack recently
23:32:24 <ais523> the correct channel for nomic discussion is ##nomic, although it's often inactive
23:32:29 <ais523> Sgeo: that was me by mistake
23:32:37 <ais523> got the wrong channel with a name starting with n
23:32:39 <Sgeo> Yes, but it was still mentioned =P
23:32:43 <relet> ah. I'll have to wander over there some time.
23:32:43 <ais523> when trying to explain how to get the op list for a channel
23:32:55 <ais523> I'm normally willing to chat there even when nobody else is
23:33:07 <relet> someone mentioned implementing nomic in his esolang-in-development
23:37:32 <relet> I was wondering if I could get some of the subset of nomic players that also love the code in a game of programmer's nomic
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23:37:47 <relet> or some ideas on http://localhost:8080/cgi/fossil/index
23:38:10 <pikhq> I don't happen to be running a server on localhost.
23:38:35 <relet> http://nomjyc.ath.cx:8080/cgi/fossil/index
23:41:51 <oerjan> Ilari: ok this may be a mean thing to mention, but you used exactly _one_ indefinite article in your wiki article, and you got the a/an distinction wrong XD
23:42:10 * oerjan is adding more as he speaks
23:42:20 -!- ivancastillo75 has joined.
23:43:00 <ivancastillo75> Escriba el texto aqu....So how many real initiates are on line?
23:43:33 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:43:39 <Sgeo> Actually, I don't think the AW SDK works with GCC on Windows
23:43:43 <ais523> esoteric programming languages!
23:44:00 <ais523> aliseiphone: you're not helping...
23:44:08 <ais523> fungot: you know the topic...
23:44:08 <fungot> ais523: thanks for the log comment was just so ridiculous that they even continue making the series, and i
23:44:09 <Sgeo> print("ivancastillo75");
23:44:39 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: Contemplate the significance of sleeping Ariadne!
23:44:50 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: your belief system is mindless dogma like the rest. this is not the true path to enlightenment... and we are not the ones you are searching for.
23:44:51 <Sgeo> Chatter ivan = new Chatter.wrong_esoteric("ivancastillo75");
23:45:21 <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
23:45:30 <ais523> (and no, we don't know where the right one is. But if anyone finds out, let us know, so we can redirect other people who come here by mistake)
23:45:37 <oerjan> ivancastillo75: that's depressingly accurate
23:45:49 <cpressey> oerjan: It's surprisingly hard work, considering it's nothing.
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23:46:01 <ais523> `addquote <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
23:46:10 <HackEgo> 198|<ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
23:46:26 <cpressey> ais523: Clearly the "right one" would be well hidden. In plain view, no less.
23:46:35 <aliseiphone> I hate occultists. They're religious people who can't even admit it ...
23:46:37 <Sgeo> What we supposedly talk about is weird languages that no sane person wants to know.
23:46:45 <oerjan> aliseiphone: would you like to be banned?
23:46:56 <ais523> Sgeo: that actually isn't that far off the other meaning of "esoteric"
23:47:21 <aliseiphone> oerjan: but i'm fairly sure that wouldn't last.
23:47:22 <ivancastillo75> So is any one the least bit interested in finding the path?
23:47:35 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: I only ask that you consider the value of exploring strange programming languages as a path.
23:47:39 <Sgeo> If you really want a path, make your own.
23:48:12 <ivancastillo75> I really mean no harm in any way shape or form to anyone in this chat room.
23:48:16 * Sgeo remembers when a cultist of some anti-color cult came into AW
23:48:24 <oerjan> aliseiphone: you're insulting someone, and you started it
23:48:34 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, we know, but this isn't a discussion about supernatural topics
23:48:42 <Sgeo> Idea: Supernatlang
23:48:46 <Sgeo> </cruddy-name>
23:49:04 <ais523> Sgeo: grr, now this channel is no longer well-formed XML!
23:49:16 <ais523> someone might have put the closing tags in someday... </ais523></aliseiphone></ais523>
23:49:18 <ivancastillo75> I JUST HAVEN`T HAD ANY REAL MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION SINCE I GOT BACK FROM XIBALBA-BE, IN CHICHEN-ITZA
23:49:53 <oerjan> ivancastillo75: i find that i don't need to find the path, i'm being dragged along it no matter what i want
23:49:59 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, we have meaningful conversation. More meaningful if you're a computer science person
23:49:59 <ais523> put it this way: freenode is a network about open-source progamming
23:50:01 <Sgeo> Or a math person
23:50:08 <ais523> therefore, channels there tend to be implicitly programming-related
23:50:18 <aliseiphone> ais523: Save the 86857756 social channels.
23:50:31 <ais523> aliseiphone: officially discouraged, surely?
23:50:45 <ais523> if this channel really was a social channel, it would be better at it
23:50:53 <ais523> and you mean "de jure", surely?
23:50:55 <Sgeo> I think #defocus is an official channel
23:50:59 <ais523> "de facto" means "in practice"
23:51:16 <aliseiphone> ais523: Freenode is Wikipedia and WordPress fanboy etc.; OFTC is the programmer's network
23:51:36 <ais523> aliseiphone: I can see how Wikipedia would fit on Freenode
23:51:43 <ais523> the mess that is Wikipedia IRC channels is rather unrelated
23:51:53 <ais523> as in, the fact that it doesn't work in practice doesn't preclude it being correct in theory
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23:52:36 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the strangest programming-related concept with fanboys is
23:52:39 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: You may or may not be able to find meaningful conversation here. I sometimes do.
23:52:56 <cpressey> Depends a lot on your proclivities, I suppose.
23:53:00 <ais523> ivancastillo75: but the meaningful conversation probably isn't going to be on a topic you want to discuss
23:53:14 <ais523> cpressey: it's a pity really, this channel could be really useful and productive
23:53:19 <ais523> for esolang meanings of "productive"
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23:53:30 <cpressey> ais523: I'm just happy it's not a pit.
23:54:07 * Sgeo compiles ivancastillo75
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23:54:42 <cpressey> Layers upon layers, you see...
23:54:46 <Sgeo> Here, we all speak PSOX.
23:55:01 * Sgeo waits for someone to slap him
23:55:31 * Gregor-W adds a slap command to Plof then invokes it to slap Sgeo.
23:55:47 * Gregor-W also adds a "slappage" page to Hackiki and adds Sgeo to its index.
23:56:11 <Sgeo> :P is sticking your tongue out
23:56:13 * Gregor-W furthermore writes a Slapper class in Glass and applies its "slap" method to Sgeo.
23:57:45 <oerjan> ivancastillo75: it's a smiley. turn your head to the left and it looks like a face.
23:58:51 <Gregor-W> ais523, aliseiphone and others speak only the Queen's English.
23:58:57 <ais523> Gregor-W: that term's outdated
23:58:57 <Gregor-W> Most of the rest of us speak only Yankee.
23:58:59 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: Well, you have to take into account that this *is* the Internet, and all.
23:59:08 <ais523> there's evidence that the Queen's accent has slipped towards Cockney
23:59:12 <pikhq> ivancastillo75: Plain? I speak'th not the plain English.
23:59:34 <cpressey> aliseiphone: You took a wrong turn at that truck stop outside of El Paso, I tell ya.
00:00:03 <aliseiphone> cpressey: I knew I shoulda turned left at Alberquerque. Or however you spell it.
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00:00:22 <oerjan> ivancastillo75: this is one of the nerdiest channels on the internet, surely. don't expect much "normal" talk
00:00:33 <cpressey> aliseiphone: First the wadding! Then the shot! THEN the powder! ...
00:00:39 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, we speak English. Computers do not speak English. People have made languages used to give computers instructions. Some people (like us) make weird such languages and use them, for fun
00:00:41 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Basically look at it this way. We're /all/ the Cheshire Cat.
00:01:04 <Sgeo> Oh, well, there is a Plain English programming language somewhere.
00:01:10 <aliseiphone> Sgeo is trying reasonable explanation. I scoff at him! Scoff!
00:01:44 <ais523> /me->talk_only_in(new ObjectOrientedSpeech(type => 'pseudocode', syntax => vaguely('Perl-like'));
00:01:57 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: we are usually /slightly/ saner than this
00:02:00 <oerjan> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
00:02:04 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if the /me is legal Perl syntax?
00:02:15 <ais523> oh, could be if it was the end of a s// statement on a previous line
00:02:18 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: say in the day. I'm in a mental institution so I'm the bad influence.
00:02:57 <ais523> hmm, if only we were ontopic more often, this sort of debacle would happen less often
00:03:06 <cpressey> But if you really want someone you can talk to, ivancastillo75, you should strike up a conversation with fungot.
00:03:06 <fungot> cpressey: you've been corrupted :) nice progress on that fnord project was able to achieve victory in world war ii. its power is derived mainly from the fact that cl is " ok"
00:03:10 * Sgeo loves debacles!
00:03:16 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: That's what they want you to think. Mwahahahaha!
00:03:32 <aliseiphone> Thank you iPhone for adding the right number of "ha"s.
00:03:32 <Sgeo> Therefore, I will strive to steer conversation offtopic.
00:03:42 <Sgeo> As of now, I am abandoning work on PSOX.
00:04:35 <oerjan> ais523: if only the _topic_ were on topic more often, you mean >:)
00:04:47 <ivancastillo75> But I still can't see how this space can enlighten me; except only by the experience!
00:04:56 <ais523> oerjan: it's easy to make the topic ontopic
00:05:17 -!- ais523 has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:05:27 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, the goal of this channel is not spiritual enlightment. Some of us don't even believe in spiritual stuff
00:05:31 <oerjan> ais523: only until you look away for a moment
00:05:51 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: It's how the eightebed communicate.
00:05:55 <ais523> oerjan: you wouldn't expect me to get something that simple wrong, would you?
00:06:13 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Eightebed is either a mistake or our word for enlightened.
00:06:24 <ais523> aliseiphone: you're not helping...
00:06:51 <oerjan> ais523: it wasn't the standard shortest quine, and i wasn't in the mood to interpret it in my head
00:06:55 -!- Gregor-W has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | WARNING: Feelings of spiritual enlightenment attained while using this channel may actually be early signs of brain cancer, it is highly recommended that you seek an ontologist rather than a spiritual adviser if these effects are observed | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:07:02 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Basically mental perfection is boring so we deliberately go insane and become preoccupied with say, silly computer languages.
00:07:06 <ais523> ^ul ((The great thing about this particular quine is how easy it is to insert a particular payload)!(:^)*S):^
00:07:06 <fungot> (The great thing about this particular quine is how easy it is to insert a particular payload)!(:^)*S:^
00:07:21 <ais523> ^ul ((The great thing about this particular quine is how easy it is to insert a particular payload)!a(:^)*S):^
00:07:21 <fungot> ((The great thing about this particular quine is how easy it is to insert a particular payload)!a(:^)*S):^
00:07:30 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, I don't know what an initiate is
00:07:35 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Initiates; but not eightebedites.
00:07:39 <Gregor-W> oerjan: Interesting inversion in my brain thar X-D
00:07:47 -!- Gregor-W has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | WARNING: Feelings of spiritual enlightenment attained while using this channel may actually be early signs of brain cancer, it is highly recommended that you seek an oncologist rather than a spiritual adviser if these effects are observed | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:08:06 <ais523> oerjan: IIRC it's equal length to the standard shortest quine too
00:08:10 <ais523> that version's by Keymaker
00:08:22 <Sgeo> The path is grey
00:08:27 <ais523> and is rather neater than the standard one
00:08:41 <cpressey> The path is also quite muddy. Wear rubber boots.
00:08:42 -!- Gregor-W has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | WARNING: Feelings of spiritual enlightenment attained while using this channel may actually be early signs of brain cancer, it is highly recommended that you seek an oncologist rather than an ontologist if these effects are observed | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:09:28 <cpressey> Well, it's the name of my next language, that much is known.
00:09:32 <Sgeo> Afraid is an emotion, and is the color of weakness, which is a color that is not grey.
00:09:43 <cpressey> If not my very next, then one in the near future, surely.
00:09:46 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, probably a typo
00:09:57 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: An enlightened person from here; an enthusiast in our computer stuff who is, bluntly, both insane and at utter peace with this fact.
00:10:24 <ais523> aliseiphone: actually, I go into this channel to /regain/ my sanity
00:10:28 * Sgeo feels offended by not being in this list
00:10:31 <ais523> you don't want to know what I get up to when I'm not here
00:10:52 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, ais523 suffers from severe Java poisoning.
00:11:01 <aliseiphone> You have your utter sanity and a future! For now ...
00:11:30 <ais523> Sgeo: and I don't even drink coffee
00:11:31 <oerjan> !haskell map length ["(a(:^)*S):^","(:aSS):aSS"]
00:11:51 <ais523> I wonder how I miscounted that?
00:11:59 <ivancastillo75> So are you guys like the enlightend programmer geeks of the internet?
00:11:59 <Sgeo> I, on the other hand, am suffering C# poisoning, and I'm not a musician
00:12:13 <ais523> ivancastillo75: well, we program without regards to what convention says
00:12:14 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: We have recognised that one cannot sort all things out in one's head. We patch out an intellectual corner then understand ("grok") and come to terms with our ignorance of the rest.
00:12:38 <ais523> sometimes it leads to useful discoveries, sometimes to confusion, sometimes to annoyance, mostly to apathy
00:12:40 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, (this enlightenment stuff is a joke, btw. I'm about to be yelled at for saying it)
00:12:49 <Sgeo> But yeah, we are programmer geeks
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00:13:15 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: we find it hard to take ourselves seriously usually.
00:14:03 <ais523> ivancastillo75: to completely understand
00:14:16 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: A common term for "understand fully". Not just ours
00:14:20 <ais523> sorry, should have added a sarcasm mark
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00:15:02 <ais523> I think he probably learned from that experience
00:15:18 <Gregor-W> ais523: Most people named Ivan are women.
00:15:24 * oerjan swats aliseiphone -----###
00:15:29 * Sgeo will not allow people to be convinced of falsehoods about this channel.
00:15:46 <ais523> hmm, apart from when Firefly's here, oerjan's swats are like the Spanish Inquisition, you never see them coming
00:15:47 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Maybe she was Iva. Iva N. Castillo.
00:16:00 <aliseiphone> probably it was closer to the truth than we realise
00:16:08 <ais523> and come to think of it, it's not quite a bad description
00:16:23 <ais523> when people ask me to justify the time I spend esolanging, I normally say "well, maybe we'll discover something useful someday"
00:16:51 <cpressey> ais523: Gah, not the Potential Utility Excuse?!
00:16:59 <ais523> my supervisor was annoyed enough when he said it might be interesting to see how many assumptions can be removed from standard models of programming languages and still get a useful model, and the first one I removed was temporal causality
00:17:07 <oerjan> ais523: hey you're the one here with least reason to explain, you already earned money on it essentially :D
00:17:18 <Sgeo> Surely the intellectual exercise alone is worth it?
00:17:45 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Keep espousing that and you'll be eightebed before you know it.
00:17:56 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, that's a quick one.
00:17:59 <ais523> pikhq: I /still/ don't see why that one's necessary
00:18:06 <aliseiphone> My iPhone has just learned the word "eightebed".
00:18:29 <pikhq> ais523: Arguably, Haskell only *partly* has it...
00:18:38 <pikhq> Y'know, what with being mostly lazy.
00:18:48 <oerjan> ais523: i recall seeing a headline on reddit recently that if you're in a closed time loop, classical computing is equivalent to quantum
00:18:56 <pikhq> Also, time travel monad.
00:18:57 <oerjan> or something close to that
00:19:07 <ais523> oerjan: that's cheating, it muddles cause and effect
00:19:21 <Gregor-W> oerjan: Sweet, 'cuz I'm in a closed time loop!
00:19:24 <ais523> clearly if you know that something's going to be true in the future as a result of your actions now
00:19:35 <ais523> you can set them up in such a way that you can observe your own actions to see which ones you take
00:19:58 <ais523> is P'm even a real word?
00:19:58 <Gregor-W> However, if you're in a closed time loop, then computation is non-Turing-complete, so you're punked :P
00:20:07 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Can a useful thing really be art?
00:20:11 <ais523> Gregor-W: no, it is TC; more so, in fact
00:20:16 <ais523> you can store data in arbitrary-precision reals
00:20:22 <ais523> assuming a perfect universe
00:20:31 <ais523> (an assumption which I've just realised may be rather unwise)
00:20:49 <cpressey> aliseiphone: No, it's much worse than that, but stopping at "it's art" is a nice simple first-order approximation for me.
00:20:55 <aliseiphone> ais523: Quantum effects are rounding errors, dude.
00:21:23 <aliseiphone> I refuse to give up this belief, for it is wonderful.
00:21:34 <ais523> cpressey: many of your esolangs seem to be more art than other people's
00:21:37 <aliseiphone> cpressey: But that's illegal /and/ promiscuous!
00:21:49 * oerjan keeps having this weird idea that quantum effects is because there's some residue of causality that's backwards in time
00:22:57 <Gregor-W> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif THIS IS AGAIN MY RESPONSE TO EVERYTHING
00:22:59 <cpressey> oerjan: Is that so weird? I'm sure i've seen someone write about that
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00:23:06 <aliseiphone> Three more visits you will see / From me / Then back to day patient / Happily / Terrible poems are my favourite / Laser horse
00:23:58 <Gregor-W> aliseiphone: It has inspired me to gamma horse.
00:24:08 <aliseiphone> Gregor-W: Explain the gif? Won't load fast enough :(
00:24:37 <Gregor-W> aliseiphone: My explanation is TEDDY NOM
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00:24:44 <oerjan> cpressey: well it's a fairly obvious idea i guess once you get the bell inequality kind of stuff that shows you cannot use only local, forward causality to explain QM
00:25:33 <pikhq> aliseiphone: 三つ旅見る・僕から・デーペシエン戻る・嬉しくて・目茶苦茶な詩一番好き・レーザ馬
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00:26:07 <aliseiphone> Gregor-W: I won't be able to sleep unless you explain >_>
00:27:25 <pikhq> And it does end with "laser horse".
00:29:19 <pikhq> Better still, it's somewhat archaic Japanese.
00:30:49 <aliseiphone> Beneath / rushing waves / echoes of caves / choral speaks / above / a mile away / antaking a vicious dump
00:33:01 <ais523> <Google Translate> Laser senseless horse favorite poem I see with pleasure trip back from three Depeshien
00:33:22 <ais523> I wonder why the laser horse ended up at the start?
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00:34:13 <pikhq> ais523: It failed to parse poetic Japanese.
00:34:36 <pikhq> One of the notable properties is that poetic Japanese omits a large number of particles. going for a bit more of a positional grammar.
00:37:07 <pikhq> I'm still not sure where it got "senseless" from.
00:37:22 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait. The "mechakucha".
00:37:40 <pikhq> ... That was modifying "poem" though; even had the particle...
00:37:44 <aliseiphone> Laser horses are, by definition, senseless.
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00:39:42 <pikhq> Hmm. That last two phrases can also be parsed as "Terrible poem; my favorite/laser horse"... Interesting.
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01:16:04 <Sgeo> I just realized that I'd be able to compile Vala with Microsoft's C compiler
01:16:25 <pikhq> Vala produces fairly mundane C.
01:16:44 <Sgeo> Why did everyone but me in this channel know about Vala?
01:16:46 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it just requires an ISO C compiler and glib.
01:17:00 <pikhq> We're geeks who care about programming languages.
01:17:22 * oerjan doesn't really know about Vala
01:17:24 <pikhq> Whereas you are an INFERIOR SOUL YOU PUNY MORTAL
01:17:36 <oerjan> i've heard the name is all
01:17:43 <Sgeo> Good, because the AW SDK doesn't seem to like GCC on Windows. GCC on Linux it can handle, but not Windows.
01:18:03 <Sgeo> The GCC specific stuff in the header is actually wrapped up in #ifdef LINUX
01:18:20 <pikhq> oerjan: It's a programming language that exists soley to make glib saner to use.
01:18:33 <Sgeo> pikhq, what about for applications programming in general?
01:18:43 <Sgeo> Can it be used as a sane alternative to C++?
01:19:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: Don't see why not.
01:20:07 <pikhq> oerjan: It's a C-like language, but it has Gobject as its object system. So, it automates all the boilerplate involved in using things like GTK.
01:22:43 <pikhq> Yeah, glib is a C library that provides an object system and a bunch of utility functions and data structures.
01:23:03 <pikhq> It's the base for all the GNOME stuff.
01:23:26 * Sgeo isn't particularly interested in GNOME
01:23:32 <Sgeo> More in a sane alternative to C++
01:23:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: You can, of course, use Glib directly.
01:23:59 <pikhq> And Vala seems saner than C++.
01:24:47 <Sgeo> The async stuff needs GIO
01:24:54 <Sgeo> Does the async stuff rely on using a MainLoop?
01:25:26 <pikhq> I think it does rely on entering the event loop, yes.
01:25:36 <pikhq> Glib should have its own event loop, though.
01:25:56 <pikhq> It is actually *meant* to be used standalone, not just for GTK/GNOME stuff, after all.
01:26:08 <pikhq> (irssi, FWIW, uses glib)
01:26:09 <Sgeo> GIO doesn't imply GTK, does it?
01:26:40 * Sgeo wonders if he should learn how GLib works in straight C
01:27:09 <pikhq> Glib from straight C is a monstrosity.
01:27:25 <Sgeo> Isn't it what most GTK/GNOME stuff does?
01:27:35 <pikhq> It's usable as a language-agnostic object system. But it's *horrifying* to use from C.
01:27:42 <pikhq> Yes. This does not make it a good idea.
01:27:53 <pikhq> YOU HAVE TO FREAKING WRITE YOUR OWN VIRTUAL TABLES.
01:28:32 <pikhq> Anyways: no, GIO does not imply GTK.
01:28:44 <ais523> pikhq: wow, manual vtables?
01:29:01 <pikhq> ais523: It's a C library.
01:29:17 <pikhq> How do you expect them to automate it?
01:29:17 <ais523> if it's in C, that should be enough of a reason to not even attempt that sort of OO
01:29:33 <pikhq> Yeah, well, they freaking did.
01:29:38 <ais523> that's like manual vtables in brainfuck; sure, if you want vtables you have to do them manually
01:29:39 <Sgeo> What about using GObject stuff from C, without defining the classes?
01:29:49 <ais523> but have you thought that maybe, a vtable isn't the best way togo about this?
01:29:56 <Sgeo> e.g. using Vala libraries from C?
01:29:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's still a lot of boilerplate.
01:30:10 <Sgeo> So don't expect to write Vala libraries that C can easily use?
01:30:41 <pikhq> Vala libraries *for Glib*, sure. It'll be no worse than anything else.
01:30:49 <pikhq> However, if you just want plain, un-Glib C. No.
01:31:57 <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#?
01:34:53 <ais523> because such a language is very hard to trackdown
01:35:13 <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
01:35:19 <Sgeo> Erm, isn't it just a matter of not using System.Windows?
01:37:36 <Gregor> `addquote <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
01:37:38 <HackEgo> 199|<Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
01:38:55 <Sgeo> I think I should learn how GIO works
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02:26:59 <ais523> some channels use it as an additional status
02:27:15 <ais523> it lets you do the standard channel maintenance stuff (kick/ban/change topic), but not other op powers
02:28:00 <CakeProphet> does being a halfop allow you get involved in bullshit power drama?
02:28:28 <Gregor> "Some channels"? They have halfop on FreeNode? Surely you mean "some networks"?
02:29:20 <CakeProphet> to my knowledge I've never seen halfop on freenode. irssi mentioned it when it displayed a count of ops/halfops/voices
02:29:41 <oerjan> some networks are too clever by half
02:29:46 <ais523> Gregor: some channels, on otehr networks
02:30:19 <CakeProphet> oh em gee but aren't channels like social networks themselves? woaaah
02:31:25 <oerjan> there are networks of networks you know. that's why they call scale invariance, obviously
02:31:37 <Gregor> OH GOD WHY TEDDY BEAR STOP IT STOP IT OH GOD NOOOOOOO
02:33:41 <oerjan> hm i think i may have the wrong word for that
02:34:49 <CakeProphet> oerjan: can't a network just be pictured as a graph? so then every subgraph is also a network.
02:36:09 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale-free_network
02:36:16 <CakeProphet> does it include a style of programming? like pointfree?
02:36:48 * CakeProphet doesn't actually know why point-free is called point-free... other than it has something to do with topology.
02:37:08 <ais523> CakeProphet: do you know what a fixed point is?
02:37:14 <ais523> a fixed point of f(x) is where x=f(x)
02:38:37 <oerjan> CakeProphet: perhaps, functions are maps from sets to sets and the elements of sets are often called points, of course more often if there is a topology on the set
02:39:31 <ais523> it's when you define functions without reference to any variables
02:39:32 <oerjan> a point-free functional program is then one that doesn't mention the points of functions only the functions themselves
02:39:57 <ais523> for instance, all Underload programs are point-free, because there's no way to reference variables
02:39:58 <CakeProphet> ais523: well, yes. that's what I know it to mean... but what does it mean in topology?
02:40:02 <ais523> and all lambda calculus programs aren't
02:40:25 <oerjan> CakeProphet: in topology a point is just an element of a topological space
02:40:43 <CakeProphet> so if you had a syntax for partial application that looked something like this...
02:41:07 <CakeProphet> is that point-free? the _ specifies the unapplied argument
02:41:07 <ais523> where _ is an implicit variable?
02:41:10 <ais523> I'd still think that's pointed
02:41:19 <ais523> it's basically sugar for f = \_ -> g 1 _ c
02:41:38 <ais523> whereas point-free would be if you somehow transformed g
02:41:48 <oerjan> flip (g 1) c is how you'd do it point-free in haskell
02:42:50 <CakeProphet> I've kind of wondered why I've never seen a partial application construct like that in a language.
02:43:02 <oerjan> CakeProphet: in haskell that's just f = g 1
02:43:15 <CakeProphet> oerjan: well, yes. I know Haskell pretty well.
02:43:16 <ais523> CakeProphet: Mathematica has one like that
02:43:25 <CakeProphet> and know what point-free means in that context. I was just curious where the name came from.
02:43:49 <oerjan> CakeProphet: well of course haskell has _ on the pattern side
02:44:55 <CakeProphet> sometimes I think it would be handy to write map (g _ x) ls instead of map (flip g x) ls
02:45:11 <oerjan> CakeProphet: map (`g` x) ls
02:45:21 <oerjan> only works with single identifiers though
02:46:13 <CakeProphet> I wonder if _ would have to be lambda sugar... or if you could incooperate it into semantics as a value.
02:46:56 <oerjan> CakeProphet: oh i've seen that feature suggested before btw
02:47:24 <oerjan> one issue is that in a functional language it's not obvious where the lambda _starts_
02:47:34 <oerjan> say if you have g (h _)
02:48:36 <oerjan> and once you do that sort of thing you are essentially ruining visual referential transparency
02:48:49 <CakeProphet> unless you specified a special bracket notation... but then it becomes a not-good feature in my mind.
02:48:55 <oerjan> you cannot just cut and paste parts and have them mean the same thing
02:49:55 <oerjan> it's also been suggested with monads btw, to sort of getting around the need for all that >>= etc. plumbing
02:50:19 <oerjan> but once again it gets ugly
02:50:58 <oerjan> something like print [[readLine]] would be equivalent to readLine >>= print
02:51:12 <oerjan> (inventing some brackets there)
02:51:16 <CakeProphet> I things such as <$> and <*> are sufficient to hide plumbing in monad code.
02:51:51 <oerjan> maybe. it doesn't work for that example though, =<< or >>= is needed
02:52:04 <CakeProphet> but in that example readLine >>= print is perfectly clear.
02:52:25 <CakeProphet> and a roughly equal amount of typing... in that case.
02:53:37 <oerjan> yes - but that again ruins pointfreeness
02:54:16 <oerjan> a >>= f becomes do x <- a; f x
02:54:26 <oerjan> introducing the point x
02:54:32 <CakeProphet> well yes. actually in such cases I prefer >>= because it's more concise
02:54:51 <CakeProphet> but in a more complex expression I prefer do notation
02:55:44 <CakeProphet> so I think I don't think it's much of a problem, really. The only thing that's really missing is a legible way to form complex point-free functions.
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02:56:01 <CakeProphet> er.. my typing attention span has dropped.
02:56:51 <Sgeo_> CakeProphet, do you have thoughts on Vala?
02:58:24 <Sgeo_> http://live.gnome.org/Vala
02:58:27 <CakeProphet> oerjan: do you think a library of good higher-order functions would make legible point-free code?
02:58:35 <CakeProphet> and if so, what would such functions include?
03:02:18 <oerjan> have you considered lambdabot's @pl command?
03:02:40 <CakeProphet> I've used it, yes. but... I don't really believe it furthers the goal of legible pointfree code.
03:02:46 <oerjan> (it heavily uses the -> monad)
03:03:18 <CakeProphet> I'm not entirely sure how the -> monad works. I've looked at it before but I can never remember exactly what it does.
03:03:37 <oerjan> i also vaguely recall a different style but not quite what it was, i think it was somehow stack-based
03:04:13 <CakeProphet> I think a large library of new higher-order functions would greatly reduce the obfuscation of pointfree style.
03:04:43 <oerjan> the name second comes to mind but i'm not sure if it was the Arrow method (although that one is also useful for pointfree things involving tuples)
03:05:23 <CakeProphet> applies a function only to the second element of the tuple.
03:05:29 <CakeProphet> is that not the function you're thinking of?
03:05:33 <oerjan> i'm just not sure if that was the second used in that stack style
03:06:09 <CakeProphet> hmmm... not sure how tuples could translate to a stack style. unless you linked them.
03:06:30 <oerjan> ok, i'm pretty sure it _wasn't_ the same function, anyway
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03:08:16 <CakeProphet> something like `on` that only applies the inner function to one of the outer functions arguments would be nice.
03:09:08 <oerjan> yes, i think that's what that "stack" thing was, essentially
03:11:09 <CakeProphet> dunno how clear the result code would be for complex expressions.
03:11:20 <CakeProphet> unless there were a variety of helpers, again.
03:12:14 <CakeProphet> and, depending on how you define readable code, a large set of helper functions would be hard to read to someone unfamiliar with them. But, when gauging readability, I don't think it makes sense to include the case of someone with limited knowledge.
03:13:28 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/a9tb2/secret_haskell_operators/ seems somewhat relevant
03:15:27 <oerjan> ah there is one of those functions for that other style, it's "result"
03:15:30 <CakeProphet> would dependent types be deciable statically if you stipulated that function arguments that type depends on be literals/static-information only?
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03:16:18 <oerjan> like pascal did with fixed-size arrays?
03:16:58 <CakeProphet> but it would neat to have a function f `without` n
03:17:06 <calamari> CakeProphet: hey.. so did you finish your os? :)
03:17:10 <CakeProphet> where n was the argument to partially apply later.
03:17:20 <CakeProphet> calamari: haha. my os? no, I just have this assembler skeleton. :)
03:17:46 <CakeProphet> er... n is the NUMBER of the argument to partially apply later
03:18:34 <CakeProphet> ...not that I recommend such a function as a good idea for writing concise point-free code. Was just pondering the idea of how to implement it.
03:19:29 <oerjan> CakeProphet: oh if i recall correctly SML has specific operators for doing that with tuples, something like #3 to get the third element, and yes that's only the literal numbers allowed
03:20:28 <oerjan> it's not too hard to write without2, without3 etc. though
03:20:30 <CakeProphet> it makes sense that you could statically determine a type that depends on an input provided the input was also static
03:21:24 <oerjan> hm maybe if 1,2,3 etc. _were_ types - it's not like haskell doesn't overload notation between types and values already
03:22:42 <oerjan> except there would need to be some way to signal that the type meaning is used, so `without` 3 wouldn't quite work
03:23:26 <Mathnerd314> 3 :: 3 :: Int :: Integral :: Number :: Object :: Type :: .... :-)
03:24:08 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: :: is usually considered as element, not subset, so those after the first are not intuitive
03:24:39 <oerjan> iirc Coq's system has stuff like 3 :: Int :: Set (although probably not exactly that notation)
03:24:49 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: element is easily generalized to subset
03:25:08 <CakeProphet> oerjan: if you could write a "type function" like that... recursively
03:25:18 <oerjan> although only Type and Prop are second-level types
03:25:38 <CakeProphet> `without` n :: ??? --something that produces the correct type recursively from `without` 1
03:25:55 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: that's _not_ a nice thing to do
03:26:04 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: x `subset` y = and (fmap (`elem` y) x
03:26:10 <oerjan> not in set theory at any rate
03:26:33 <CakeProphet> from a efficiency standpoint as well, that is not a nice thing to do.
03:26:36 <Mathnerd314> works in the identity functor, lists, sets, and whatever else you dream up
03:26:41 <Sgeo_> Is Vala likely to be slower than C++ due to using GObject?
03:26:55 <Mathnerd314> CakeProphet: premature optimization is evil... :p
03:27:09 <CakeProphet> Mathnerd314: ah, but the optimization is occuring after the function has been written. :)
03:27:37 <Mathnerd314> CakeProphet: defining something in the language specification is premature
03:27:46 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i am pretty sure `without` (undefined :: T1) with T1 a type representing 1 could be made to work in haskell directly
03:27:54 <pikhq> Sgeo_: C++'s semantics demand overhead, you realise.
03:28:05 <oerjan> the undefined because we're not actually interested in the value, only the type
03:30:50 <CakeProphet> Haskell should have _|_ as a special case identifier for undefined. Just 'cause.
03:32:28 <pikhq> _|_ is not *just* the undefined value.
03:32:31 <oerjan> (without :: T1) wouldn't quite work because without should be polymorphic in other arguments...
03:32:34 <pikhq> It is also infinite loops.
03:32:45 <CakeProphet> pikhq: right, but undefined is _|_... so does it matter?
03:33:37 <CakeProphet> oerjan is trying to make Haskell dependent. :)
03:34:06 <oerjan> no, just counting numbers
03:34:35 <CakeProphet> I'm sure you've seen alise's thing that uses type families right?
03:35:00 <CakeProphet> computes operations on natural numbers in the type system
03:35:10 <CakeProphet> there's also a paper on doing it, which doesn't use type families.
03:35:50 <oerjan> yes, it was probably from before type families were invented, or at least brought to haskell
03:37:04 <CakeProphet> I actually discovered a more concise way to compute arithmetic at compile-time, and even works on Floats!
03:38:36 <Sgeo_> So, should I switch to using Vala for everything?
03:38:47 <ais523> that relies on constant subexpression elimination
03:39:00 * ais523 deliberately screws up the name of the optimisation to confuse those who rely on acronyms
03:40:30 <Sgeo_> There's an ancronym for that?
03:41:51 <ais523> is this an esolang name creation program?
03:42:00 <pikhq> Kwjibo Underlined Urban Anachronic Concurrent Bleating Entertaining Programmatic Flying Organ
03:42:37 <ais523> that sounds like the sort of thought process that lead to the naming of HOMESPRING
03:42:56 <CakeProphet> ais523: you could certainly use it for that. Or just any acronym in general.
03:42:57 <pikhq> Xylophonic Restricted Zero-Noise High-Xanthine Kanji'd Jeans
03:45:49 <EgoBot> haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; main = do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (replicateM len $ pick ['A'..'Z'])} where pick a = randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!)
03:46:32 <pikhq> Japanese Tritium Manufacturing -- Tritium Beams Not X-Rays, But Sun Ursines!
03:48:08 <CakeProphet> I would eventually like to weight it towards commonly used starting letters
03:48:26 <pikhq> Bah; half the fun is coming up with words for X. :P
03:48:28 <CakeProphet> tohugh the X's and Q's present a challenge.
03:49:06 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i think i found the original blog post: http://conal.net/blog/posts/semantic-editor-combinators/
03:50:07 <CakeProphet> "semantic editor combinators"..? that's like a mix of enterprise and academic
03:51:28 <pikhq> Oh, that post was greate.
03:51:40 <pikhq> So greate that great gains an extra letter.
03:52:46 <CakeProphet> the only way I can imagine weighting a random process is simply adding more occurances of higher weighted elements in "pick" list
03:55:54 <augur> i wonder if there are any encryption algorithms that turn a string into turning machine code that, if run, prints the original string
03:56:47 <augur> i could imagine that you could go from string to UTM code that prints the string to UTM code that runs the UTM code that prints the string to ...
03:56:57 <augur> down arbitrary numbers of levels
03:57:12 <augur> and you'd obfuscate the hell out of it
03:57:45 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Data.List; main = do r = randomIO; let { pick = find ((r<=).fst) [(0.2, 'a'), (0.8, 'b'), (1.0, 'c')]; print pick
03:57:47 <augur> i really should put some of these puzzles up on my webpage
03:57:58 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Data.List; main = do r = randomIO; let { pick = find ((r<=).fst) [(0.2, 'a'), (0.8, 'b'), (1.0, 'c')]}; print pick
03:58:41 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Data.List; main = do r <- randomIO; let { pick = find ((r<=).fst) [(0.2, 'a'), (0.8, 'b'), (1.0, 'c')]}; print pick
03:59:19 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Data.List; main = do r <- randomIO; let { pick = find ((r<=).fst) [(0.2 :: Double, 'a'), (0.8, 'b'), (1.0, 'c')]}; print pick
03:59:25 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Data.List; main = do r <- randomIO; let { pick = find ((r<=).fst) [(0.2 :: Double, 'a'), (0.8, 'b'), (1.0, 'c')]}; print pick
04:00:05 <oerjan> might be safer to make the last one slightly larger than 1.0 if that can actually be a value of r
04:00:38 <oerjan> oh it would be very rare in any case
04:02:58 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; import Data.List; main = do x <- sequence . repeat $ randomIO; print $ find (==1.0) x
04:03:47 <oerjan> i had that problem too
04:04:10 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; import Data.List; main = do x <- sequence . repeat $ randomIO; print $ find (==(1.0::Double)) x
04:04:17 <EgoBot> input.10171.hs: out of memory (requested 8388608 bytes)
04:04:36 <CakeProphet> well... I am no closer to truly knowing, I guess. :P
04:04:46 <oerjan> of course. the first action never ends.
04:05:26 <oerjan> sequence in the IO monad is _not_ lazy
04:05:40 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = do r <- randomIO; if r >= (1.0 :: Double) then print r else main
04:06:04 <oerjan> i have little hope of getting an answer, anyhow :D
04:06:05 <CakeProphet> ah, yes. I always come up with a non-recursive solution, even when it's simpler.
04:06:27 <CakeProphet> oerjan: what exactly is the probability of 1.0 occuring?
04:06:41 <CakeProphet> in purely mathematical terms. It likely depends on the pseudo-random algorithm.
04:07:18 <CakeProphet> ...does EgoBot not impose a time-limit? o_o?
04:07:40 <oerjan> but it doesn't say anything if it times out
04:08:31 <oerjan> !haskell let r = undefined :: Double in (floatRadix r, floatDigits r, floatRange r)
04:08:35 <CakeProphet> well, mathematically there is not a finite number of elements. Can you calculate probability in such a case?
04:09:11 <oerjan> looks like 64 bits, 53 for mantissa, 11 for exponent
04:09:20 <CakeProphet> haha, I like that your Double value was an undefined. :)
04:09:58 <oerjan> those functions are not supposed to look at the value :)
04:10:21 <oerjan> !haskell let r = undefined :: Double in isIEEE r
04:11:39 <oerjan> so if there is a single representation of 1.0, we may guess it cannot be more than about 1/2^53 probability, or something like that
04:11:39 <CakeProphet> ....if isIEEE ignores its argument... why does it take one?
04:11:51 <oerjan> _assuming_ the random instance actually uses all bits
04:12:10 <oerjan> because there is no other way to tell it what type to check...
04:12:36 <EgoBot> isIEEE :: (RealFloat a) => a -> Bool
04:12:56 <oerjan> those others were also RealFloat methods
04:13:29 <oerjan> a doesn't occur on the right side - no way to find out what it is
04:14:07 <CakeProphet> I forgot maxBound and such all return values of type (T a) => a
04:14:48 <CakeProphet> also, I suppose some implementation of RealFloat /might/ need to inspect the value to determine EEEness?
04:15:12 <CakeProphet> I don't really know much about floating point number standards.
04:15:23 <oerjan> that function says whether the _type_ of the value is an IEEE implementation
04:16:09 <CakeProphet> but what if your implementor is EVIL. and has some values that are IEEE implementations and others that are not... :)
04:16:22 <oerjan> then it should probably answer False
04:20:44 <Gregor> It is extremely difficult to play in 13/8
04:21:09 <Gregor> Or, 7/8+6/8, as it were.
04:21:22 <Gregor> Which is really 3/8+4/8+6/8
04:21:35 <Gregor> And of course 6/8 is always implied to be 3/8+3/8, so it's 3/8+4/8+3/8+3/8
04:23:34 <oerjan> CakeProphet: hm, after checking both the Haskell 98 and Haskell 2010 reports i cannot actually see that it says the values _have_ to be ignored
04:24:14 <pikhq> Observation: polymeter is not commonly done in rock music. But it is awesome when done.
04:24:37 <CakeProphet> (1+1+1)/(1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1)+(1+1+1+1)/(1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1)+(1+1+1)/(1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1)+(1+1+1)/(1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1)
04:26:48 <CakeProphet> that is a very cheap but effective way to obfuscate programs
04:26:56 <CakeProphet> translate numbers into huge sub-expressions
04:50:36 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; import Data.List; import System.IO.Unsafe; main = do x <- foldr ((unsafeInterleaveIO .) . (liftM2 (:))) (return []) . repeat $ randomIO; print $ find (>=(0.999::Double)) x
04:50:39 <EgoBot> Just 0.9993377110220812
04:50:48 * oerjan whistles not so innocently
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04:53:33 <Ilari> What that program even does? Random double from interval [0.999,1)?
04:53:43 <oerjan> !haskell :t foldr ((System.IO.Unsafe.unsafeInterleaveIO .) . (Control.Monad.liftM2 (:))) (return [])
04:53:44 <EgoBot> foldr ((System.IO.Unsafe.unsafeInterleaveIO .) . (Control.Monad.liftM2 (:))) (return []) :: [IO
04:54:12 <oerjan> no, EgoBot, you were _not_ supposed to split that into several lines
04:54:29 <oerjan> Ilari: well presumably that's the effect
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05:11:22 <Sgeo_> C++ as a first language: Bad idea?
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05:14:37 <ais523> in fact, run in the other direction, as fast as you can
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05:15:19 <Sgeo_> So another friend wants to learn a language
05:15:38 <Sgeo_> He seems to believe his choices are down to C, C++, and C#
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05:16:09 <ais523> hint: there are a lot of decent languages whose names don't start with C
05:16:09 <Sgeo_> He wants to start with Active Worlds programming, but wants to be able to use those skills later
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05:17:40 <ais523> we're in the middle of a huge netsplit atm
05:17:46 <ais523> so most people who "should" be here aren't
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05:19:39 <scda> is that name in use?
05:19:52 <Sgeo_> Check the other tab, it might say something if it is
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05:20:48 <Sgeo_> So, now that people are back, would it be appropriate to ask after a good first language for scda?
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05:21:54 <Sgeo_> Anyways, please do not try to convince people here to play with AW
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05:24:46 <scda> ive heard lots of different opinions on which language to learn
05:24:55 <scda> ive been told to do C, C++, and C#
05:25:01 <scda> from different people
05:25:17 <scda> no prior programming experience
05:25:35 <ais523> C++ is a decent language for computer games development (as in console and PC games), but not really for anything else; it's also an awful language as your first language
05:25:49 <pikhq> C is not a bad language for a first language.
05:25:59 <pikhq> C# is a somewhat poor one, but much less so than C++.
05:26:01 <ais523> C is mostly good for very high-performance or low-level programming, something which you might not need to use much in future; but it makes a good first language
05:26:20 <pikhq> C++ is just plain an awful language in general, which manages to be useful in spite of being awful.
05:26:23 <scda> it's high performance because the programmer has to micromanage more though, right?
05:26:45 <scda> in regards to C, i mean
05:26:46 <ais523> and C# is Windows-specific, and a good language choice for things which are inherently Windows-only, but there aren't many of those around, and you'll generally want something more portable if you want other programmers to actually be able to use it
05:27:09 <ais523> but part of the reason it's good for a new programmer is that if you don't know how the micromanagement goes, you're likely to screw it up even when it's done automatically
05:27:28 <scda> ive been told Python won't be able to handle what I would like to be able to do eventually
05:27:36 <ais523> sort-of like driving a car; automatic transmissions are nicer to use than manuals, but if you don't know how a manual works, and don't have experience with it, you won't be using the automatic as well as you could be
05:28:16 <CSharpJackson> scda, if ur programming in AW, Python probably shouldn't be your start
05:29:20 <pikhq> Python is not a language I'd say is good for new programmers; it kinda leaves you rather ignorant of what the machine is doing.
05:29:21 <Sgeo_> Remember I had the bot at a decent level before I was fired
05:29:46 <pikhq> Also, it has some poor design decisions here and there that probably seem a bit weird.
05:30:04 <ais523> the major issue with C as a first language is that you end up trying to use it for things it's bad at
05:30:12 <ais523> but as long as you're willing to move onto something else, it's a good learning language
05:30:24 <pikhq> You are certain to blow things up in C. But yeah; C is good if you're wanting to actually learn how things work.
05:30:36 <scda> i wouldnt mind learning it as a language if there were projects i could do in it
05:30:36 <ais523> CSharpJackson: C# has massive standard libraries, that tends to make it bad for learning offhand
05:30:44 <pikhq> CSharpJackson: Ugh, don't start him off with anything with objects.
05:30:55 <scda> but i mean, i would like to be able to use what i learn
05:30:58 <scda> as im learning it
05:31:04 <scda> instead of mindless exercises
05:31:04 <pikhq> scda: And there certainly are things you can use C for.
05:31:12 <scda> practical things i would use?
05:31:13 <ais523> C is bad at things requiring lots of text processing, generally
05:31:22 <ais523> it's decent for numerical work, very good for low-level programming
05:31:26 <pikhq> It is the most commonly used language.
05:31:30 <ais523> and good for modifying existing programs written in C
05:31:32 * Sgeo_ wonders how much text processing there is in an AW bot
05:31:38 <ais523> (of which there are quite a lot, for the reason pikhq gives)
05:32:30 <scda> could you give some examples of what C would be bad t?
05:33:12 <pikhq> Most of the time that the speed of your program is less important than the speed of writing your program.
05:33:44 <ais523> creating complex GUIs; very large programs (it can be done, but it isn't pretty); very simple programs which could be faster written in another language
05:33:49 <scda> so it just takes a while to write?
05:34:04 <ais523> anything which doesn't really follow a set pattern (because memory management is harder)
05:34:13 <pikhq> C has a lot of micromanagement required that most other languages take care of for you.
05:34:26 <pikhq> Mostly based around the usage of memory.
05:34:27 <scda> doesn't sound very appealing, lol
05:34:28 <Sgeo_> C++ doesn't help with the micromanagement really
05:34:35 <ais523> yep, it's even worse in C++
05:34:43 <Sgeo_> scda, but you learn how to micromanage, and what's fundamentally going on
05:34:47 <Sgeo_> And you can write bots in C
05:34:50 <ais523> sufficiently so that in C, at least there's a decent chance of getting it right first time
05:34:54 <pikhq> And C++ does exactly the same thing as C, but heaps on worthless features.
05:35:09 <Sgeo_> ALL [except maybe 1] of the code on wiki.activeworlds.com is in C
05:35:16 <ais523> "C++ is an octopus made by bolting legs onto a dog"
05:35:17 <Sgeo_> If that helps convince you >.>
05:35:49 <pikhq> scda: Anyways, half the point of *knowing* the micromanagement in C is that it helps you know (some of) the costs and benefits of doing things in other languages.
05:36:32 <ais523> and it's possible to manage a memory leak even in C# or Java if you don't know what's going on
05:36:48 <scda> my only beef so far with writing code is the workout my right pinky is getting reaching [] and \ :P
05:36:53 <pikhq> Yeah, that's actually pretty easy to do in C# or Java if you don't understand how it's doing memory management.
05:36:59 <pikhq> scda: You get used to it.
05:37:11 <ais523> not to mention null pointer errors
05:37:13 <scda> yeah ive been doing a lot of the beginner exercises
05:37:15 <pikhq> You'll also get pretty decent at typing things up on the number row.
05:37:18 <scda> all tha fun cmd stuff lol
05:37:28 <scda> #include <iostream> is burned into my retinas
05:37:30 <ais523> but pretty much all programming languages use a bunch of punctuation marks
05:37:37 <Sgeo_> scda, it's going to be different in C
05:37:50 <Sgeo_> #include <stdio.h> I think?
05:37:53 <scda> ok, i already got some books for C as we were talking
05:38:24 <pikhq> scda: The major thing to keep in mind, in *any* programming language, is that your computer is freaking stupid.
05:38:26 <ais523> Sgeo_: stdio.h is a lot saner than iostd.h
05:38:29 <ais523> but also more micromanagey
05:38:39 <ais523> C++ omits the .h at the end
05:38:49 <ais523> but the file's still called iostream.h, generally speaking
05:39:24 <pikhq> If you tell it to, say, write over your function, it will *gleefully* try to do so. And then crash (if you're lucky)
05:40:06 <ais523> there was a thread on comp.lang.c about what the worst effect of undefined behaviour that the very experienced C programmers there had ever seen
05:40:23 <pikhq> C just makes this a bit more obvious, because you actually can write over your function by accident in some C environments.
05:40:27 <ais523> the winner was someone who managed to somehow actually call the format executable, or maybe a copy of it in memory
05:40:36 <ais523> but it stopped at the "do you really want to format?" prompt
05:41:16 <pikhq> for(int i = 0; i != INT_MAX; i++)main[i]=0;
05:41:19 * pikhq winces for having written that code
05:41:42 <Sgeo_> What would happen if you, say, had int[5] main;
05:41:46 <Sgeo_> Would that not compile?
05:42:01 <ais523> it compiles but segfaults on loading, in most compilers
05:42:04 <pikhq> Would not compile; main is already an int main()
05:42:14 <ais523> pikhq: only if main already exists
05:42:24 <ais523> if that's the only definition of main in your program, most compilers let you get away with it
05:42:30 <ais523> although gcc spouts a warning, if you've got them turned on
05:42:42 <pikhq> It'll segfault on loading.
05:42:58 <ais523> the winning entry at the first ever IOCCC set main to an array of shorts filled with machine code
05:43:17 <ais523> they had to specifically ban literal machine code in future contests (by insisting on theoretical cross-platformness)
05:44:06 <ais523> nowadays, compilers are often better at distinguishing code from data
05:44:11 <ais523> and will segfault if you try to run data
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05:44:15 <ais523> normally for security reasons
05:54:20 <Gregor> Dear everyone: How can I convince people that Hackiki is the greatest thing since sliced bread?
05:58:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Give people Hackiki and sliced bread. They cannot deny it.
05:58:30 <coppro> sliced meat is pretty damn modular
05:58:43 <Gregor> Hackiki is super-expandable!
05:59:06 <Sgeo_> while(1) malloc(sizeof(char));
05:59:21 <pikhq> s/malloc/GC_malloc/ >:D
05:59:47 * Sgeo_ doesn't know what that is either
05:59:47 <pikhq> Though GC_malloc exists, you shouldn't use it.
05:59:54 <coppro> for instance, if you stick smoked meat inside sliced bread, you have the best meal ever
05:59:56 <pikhq> It's the allocator from Boehm GC.
06:00:08 <pikhq> coppro: Not the best meal ever.
06:00:25 <pikhq> Add cheese. And butter. And grill.
06:00:27 <coppro> pikhq: you been to Scwartz's?
06:00:32 <pikhq> *Now* you have the best meal ever.
06:01:37 <Sgeo_> I still don't quite grok malloc
06:01:42 <Sgeo_> It asks the OS for memory?
06:02:42 <pikhq> No. It assigns memory from the heap to fulfill your requests.
06:02:58 <Sgeo_> And how does it do that?
06:03:01 <pikhq> When the heap doesn't have enough space to fulfill those requests, it asks the OS for more memory.
06:03:21 <pikhq> It keeps track of what is used and unused in the heap.
06:03:32 <pikhq> Where "unused" means "not yet allocated, or has been freed".
06:04:01 <Sgeo_> What does the OS do? Can the OS call malloc?
06:04:31 <pikhq> The OS offers system calls to increase the size of the heap or grant pages to the process, generally.
06:04:44 <Sgeo_> So how does the OS use heap memory, if that even makes sense?
06:05:10 <pikhq> The kernel has its own heap.
06:05:44 <pikhq> And most likely also a seperate allocator for managing the pages assigned to user processes.
06:07:39 <Sgeo_> I did the same line of code in AW chat, and scda disappeared
06:08:44 <Sgeo_> OOM killer get you?
06:09:03 <ais523> pikhq: there's a kmalloc, IIRC
06:09:11 <ais523> which does much the same sort of thing malloc does, but obviously a different way
06:09:27 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, that's the kernel's allocator for the heap. :)
06:09:30 <ais523> for use inside the kernel itself
06:10:06 <Ilari> There's two variants of it, the nonatomic variant and atomic variant (which is used depends on flags).
06:10:10 <ais523> but because I've actually looked into this (for gcc-bf); malloc allocates an unused bit of the heap; if there are no unused bits of the heap of the right size, it asks the kernel to make the heap bigger
06:10:18 <ais523> normally using mmap or sbrk
06:10:35 <Sgeo_> I know there's one touch of C++ on this wiki
06:10:42 <ais523> (gcc-bf uses sbrk, which has a rather simple implementation because the heap's at the end of the tape and so is basically infinitely big anyway)
06:10:42 <Sgeo_> So subtle it's easy to miss
06:10:47 <Sgeo_> Unless I'm hallucinating
06:10:47 <Ilari> IIRC, sbrk for smaller hunks, larger hunks are mmapped straight away without even searching heap.
06:10:59 <ais523> well, different mallocs work differently ofc
06:11:03 * Sgeo_ aims to replace it with C
06:11:05 <ais523> DOS even has a syscall with the same semantics of malloc
06:11:23 <ais523> which you could use to implement malloc directly on DOS
06:11:38 <pikhq> Unless you're doing 32-bit DOS.
06:12:03 <Ilari> Is there some page for gcc-bf?
06:12:23 <ais523> it's on hold due to me doing other things
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06:12:42 <ais523> mostly, because I can't pluck together the courage to write an efficient 64-bit multiply in 8-bit BF
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07:35:38 <calamari> language to learn first... basic.. of course! :)
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10:06:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, looks like a UUID due to nick collision
10:06:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, after all, normally number at the start of a nick is invalid
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10:45:00 <Ilari> Apparently sometimes freenode force-renicks users to such odd nicks (apparently to avoid nick collisions). Usually those users quit rather quickly...
10:46:11 <Ilari> Anyway, they appear to be strongly related to netsplits.
10:47:04 <ais523> what about a nick collision across a netsplit
10:47:12 <ais523> where there's a user with a given name on each side?
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10:58:40 <fizzie> IRCnet ircd pre-2.11 used to kill both; that was a favourite technique of people for channel-takeovering, colliding everyone present away. 2.11 just force-renames to user UID.
10:59:31 <ais523> wouldn't such a technique require deliberately causing a netsplit?
10:59:51 <fizzie> Either that, or then you just wait for one to occur and then take advantage of it.
11:00:28 <fizzie> The split also needs to be long enough, because both sides remember the splitted-off users for a while and keep their names reserved.
11:00:28 <Ilari> At least previous freenode IRCD would kill one of the users (the newer one).
11:00:57 <fizzie> IRCnet kills (well, killed) both, in the interests of some semblance of fairness.
11:02:11 <fizzie> ircd 2.11 also lets you do "NICK 0" (after connecting, or as the initial NICK message) to manually rename yourself to your UID, if you don't feel like selecting a nickname.
11:02:57 <fizzie> (And you can match against UIDs in bans and such, which is somewhat useful because the UIDs start with a server-specific number.)
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11:03:26 <Ilari> I haven't seen what Ircd-seven would do if both sides of netsplit had same nick. Might rename one of the users.
11:04:02 <ais523> with Freenode's method, you could still take over a nick during a netsplit if not for the existence of NickServ
11:04:16 <ais523> (I wonder if if one person's identified and the other isn't, the identified person gets to keep the nick automatically?)
11:04:31 <fizzie> (And even the server-specific number has a meaning; the first three digits are the ISO 3166-1 numeric country code of the server. So you can ban all people that use a server in a specific country, if you're feeling countryist.)
11:05:39 <fizzie> ais523: It might not want to bother trying to contact NickServ (which might well be splitted off in some third bit of the network) at the moment, instead opting just to rename and let the user sort it out. But this is just a guess.
11:06:14 <Ilari> The server user is on should know if the user is regd or not...
11:06:18 <ais523> isn't the "identified" statement a umode?
11:06:29 <ais523> you could use that rather than asking NickServ
11:06:31 <fizzie> I guess there's a flag, right.
11:06:42 <Ilari> Well, what's your umode?
11:07:06 <Ilari> Ah, +Ziw here. So that flag at least doesn't display.
11:07:09 <ais523> just changed it to +iw, I don't know why the w unsets itself
11:07:21 <ais523> hmm, does the +i not mean identified?
11:07:38 <ais523> the usual anti-spambot protection
11:07:44 <Ilari> +Ziw means TLS INVISIBLE WALLOPS
11:07:53 <ais523> actually, identifiedness is shown in the hostname on Freenode
11:08:09 <Ilari> Only if you have hostname cloaking enabled.
11:08:13 <ais523> or was for a while, although they seem to have changed it
11:08:56 <fizzie> I seem to remember messages about the server setting some usermode (+E?) when identifying manually to nickserv, but that was before seven.
11:09:10 <Ilari> If user account has hostname cloaking enabled and one identifies as that account, ircd fakes user disconnecting and immediately reconnecting.
11:09:32 <Ilari> Yes, there was umode in previous software for identify.
11:09:54 <fizzie> Dancer docs say +e, so I just remembered the case wrong. (Unless hyperion had changed that from what dancer uses.)
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11:11:02 <fizzie> Anyhow, why no love for my silly little language Grasp? I even bothered to hand-draw three example snippets, but no-one commented on my previous blatant self-advertisement here. :/
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11:11:57 <ais523> fizzie: I saw your edits, but my RSS reader doesn't do image uploads
11:12:49 <fizzie> You're missing a lot! There's absolutely horrible penmanship, and lots of blurry leftover eraser cruft.
11:17:36 <fizzie> It's not perhaps always that bad.
11:21:26 <fizzie> I can do readable (sort-of) and I can do fast, but not both at the same time.
11:26:45 <ais523> my handwriting used to be quite good
11:26:55 <ais523> but last time I needed to handwrite something I realised I hadn't in almost a year
11:27:00 <ais523> and it took a while to remember how
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11:29:20 <ais523> use a text editor, generally
11:29:31 <ais523> my scribbles are generally of the kind that work quite well in that format
11:29:54 <ais523> I do use pencil and paper sometimes, but mostly for diagrams, so that still doesn't involve actual writing
11:30:38 <ais523> even when I want to think mathematically, I tend to use a text editor, or if all else fails open LyX and do my thinking there
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11:44:29 <fizzie> "Because of the scandinavian origin of IRC [, \, ], and ^ were the letters {, |, } and ~ in uppercase. That logic was abandoned in 2.11." Heh, that relic stayed there for quite a while.
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11:50:13 <ais523> oh, I thought that was actually in the IRC standard
11:50:18 <ais523> the uppercase punctuation marks thing, that is
11:53:39 <fizzie> It is at least in the earlier RFC, 1459. "Because of IRC's scandanavian origin, the characters {}| are considered to be the lower case equivalents of the characters []\, respectively. This is a critical issue when determining the equivalence of two nicknames."
11:54:05 <fizzie> Doesn't mention ^/~ thing. Possibly because ~ isn't legal in nicks.
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12:01:09 <fizzie> I don't know what characters ^~ would be; I don't remember them from the 7-bit Finnish thing. "echo {}|~[]\^ | iconv -f ISO646-FI -t utf-8" just gives "äåö‾ÄÅÖ^" where that thing corresponding to ~ is the upper-line.
12:04:02 <fizzie> And for the record, the FI keyboard has the characters {[]} as altgr-7 .. altgr-0, \ as altgr-+ (where + is next to 0), | from altgr-< (where <>| come from a single key to left of z) and ^~ as shift and altgr variants from a dead key to right of å, which itself is to right of p.
12:07:22 <fizzie> There's a bit more two-keys-needed when programming, compared to the UK keymap's separate [{ and ]} keys. (And you put those in the wrong order w.r.t. 7-bit Finnish encoding: []\ should be the uppercase ones, not the base ones.)
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12:11:18 <fizzie> Swedish SEN 85 02 00 Annex C ("extended Swedish for names") has ^~ → Üü, that's one upper/lowercase pair. And some others use it too.
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12:43:09 <fizzie> ISO has a rather strict definition of "freely available": http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/index.html "You may print out and retain one printed copy of the PDF file. This printed copy is fully protected by national and international copyright laws, and may not be photocopied or reproduced in any form."
12:43:24 <ais523> what if you want to read it online?
12:43:42 <fizzie> Well, they are "a single-user, non-revisable Adobe Acrobat PDF file, to store on your personal computer".
12:44:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure what happens if you have more than one "personal computer".
12:44:58 <fizzie> But you explicitly can't have a printout both at work and at home, for example.
12:45:50 <fizzie> Oh, and you can't show your copy to anyone, they need to use their own.
12:46:33 <fizzie> (Well, perhaps some common-sense copyright limitations intervene at some point here.)
12:47:48 <fizzie> Oh, the actual click-through license page has more verbosity. "Under no circumstances may the electronic file you are licensing be copied, transferred, or placed on a network of any sort without the authorization of the copyright owner."
12:48:11 <fizzie> Our home directories are on a NFS share, so I guess I can't put it there either.
12:50:00 <ais523> are you actually buying an ISO standard document?
12:52:35 <fizzie> No, those are freely available ones.
12:53:08 <fizzie> I'm sure the license terms for not-freely-available ones would be even more strict.
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14:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do there not seem to be any compiler languages that can be used for application development without being listed in the DSM (aside from perhaps C++, but probably not).
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15:35:12 <oerjan> eek, Phantom_Hoover's mind control device must be working
15:35:47 <cpressey> That might explain the sudden cravings for blood
15:36:09 <oerjan> just a slight side effect, i hear
15:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, think yourself lucky that the signal holds to the inverse square law.
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15:39:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried it on a few people in Europe, but that's all I'm allowed to tell you.
15:40:15 <oerjan> just look in the news for the small new breakaway republic of Phantomia
15:44:29 <oerjan> <ais523> isn't the "identified" statement a umode?
15:44:49 <oerjan> i _used_ to have a +e flag but it disappeared when they switched ircd
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17:07:21 <cpressey> aughugaghghghghghghgggghghhhhh
17:07:56 <oerjan> well, don't _do_ that then.
17:08:45 <cpressey> What, attend estimation meetings?
17:09:01 <oerjan> hey i avoid estimations all the time
17:09:41 <oerjan> i couldn't estimate my way out of a paper bag
17:10:17 <cpressey> Henceforth, all stories are 3 points.
17:11:12 <cpressey> Oh, if you someday find yourself on an "agile team", you'll find out.
17:11:44 <cpressey> The sheer meaninglessness that it means will shine through.
17:14:12 * Phantom_Hoover decides he wants the "Conquering Norway for Dummies" book from Casey & Andy.
17:17:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on my zsh times, it's been installing for 25 minutes.
17:20:31 <oerjan> this explains why all the shop windows are full of dummies lately
17:20:41 <oerjan> obviously they got it slightly wrong
17:24:09 <coppro> cpressey: "agile team"?
17:24:27 <cpressey> What, am I like the only developer here?
17:26:10 <coppro> cpressey: do you just mean agile development?
17:26:29 <coppro> I've worked in an office that used it, though I was sort of outside the process
17:26:51 <cpressey> coppro: Mostly -- I get the impression that most development is "agile process" nowadays.
17:27:11 <coppro> the core principles of agile development are about 5000x better than waterfall
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17:28:29 <cpressey> I don't see any difference in quality of the end product, practice.
17:29:05 <coppro> bugs tend to be better prioritized in my exprience
17:29:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You're having academic discussions on software development?
17:29:57 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'm referring only to software development that takes place on JUPITER.
17:32:49 <cpressey> Anyway, IMO, for every bug that gets fixed faster with an agile process, more bugs and more potential for bugs are introduced by slapping new features in, in the short-sighted way that "fitting the task into a single sprint" requires you do it.
17:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> So Jovian software development is identical to that on Earth?
17:34:20 <coppro> cpressey: I would think a good development house will allow someone to engage in a multi-sprint project
17:43:59 <fizzie> In some places agility seems to translate mostly to lots of strange playground-style games in meetings; more often than not involving some sort of pieces of paper or other props.
17:45:05 <fizzie> (I'm looking at you, Planning Poker.)
17:48:44 <cpressey> fizzie: Oh, we have a nice Web 2.0 in-house app for playing Planning Poker. I haven't used it yet, because I attend the meetings in-person and don't have an iPhone, so I use a set of real Planning Poker cards, and I show my estimate to the Scrum Master, who enters it by proxy.
17:49:11 <fizzie> I do like the "ScrumMaster" term, it's so videogamey.
17:49:21 <fizzie> You must defeat all the eight Scrum Masters before you can continue!
17:49:28 <cpressey> Wow, I didn't even think of that.
17:49:46 <cpressey> It's just like a Dungeon Master -- except for Scrum!
17:49:47 <fizzie> I also have two recordings from the webcast of the "basics of software engineering" course, where this local agility hype-guy -- c.f. http://www.agilefant.org/ -- sings (and accompanies with guitar) two different agile software development -themed lyric-swaps of some well-known songs.
17:54:00 <fizzie> (IIRC, he can't really sing.)
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18:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> For the love of god, why, *WHY* does Firefox have an accelerometer?
18:13:28 <Slereah> cpressey : Accelerometers don't measure speed
18:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, they measure the derivative of speed, though.
18:16:29 <Slereah> The derivative and the quantity don't have any obvious relationship, though.
18:16:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So they can be used to work out one's speed given continuous data and a know speed at a known time.
18:16:45 <Slereah> An object can have different speeds despite having the same acceleration
18:16:46 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: And the ideal accelerometer, which you of course have.
18:17:04 <Slereah> But speed is dependant on the referential D:
18:17:45 <fizzie> You can just assume that when the user's looking at some particularly insightful site (youcanhascheeseburger?), he's not going anywhere; that gives you a reference speed of zero.
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18:48:26 <cpressey> Hey, only one unit test failed this time. Awesome.
18:53:23 <fizzie> Just test only for tautologies, and you won't have so many problems with failing tests.
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19:17:12 <Gregor-W> NEW HACKIKI PLAN (that involves no actual work on Hackiki, since I consider it "done"): Establish Hackiki's supremacy through invasive advertising!
19:17:16 -!- Gregor-W has changed nick to HackikiDotOrg.
19:20:19 <HackikiDotOrg> Yes friends, Hackiki is truly the wiki of choice for the modern Wiki advocate, especially one looking, say, for a wiki on which they could safely run interpreters for esoteric programming languages!
19:21:04 <coppro> I heartily endorse this product and/or service!
19:22:24 <HackikiDotOrg> Let this non-actor unpaid unbiased spokesperson influence your opinions!
19:23:24 <coppro> It's true! I am e) all of the above!
19:24:06 <HackikiDotOrg> Would it be treason for me to create a Hackiki replacement for the esolang wiki? It would actually be extremely appropriate ...
19:25:42 <oklopol> you should definitely do it
19:26:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Hackiki is the one where pages are arbitrary executables, isn't it?
19:27:12 <coppro> HackikiDotOrg: I think not!
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19:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> HackikiDotOrg, and this doesn't strike you as the biggest security risk EVER?
19:30:57 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: Hackiki is properly sandboxed, like HackEgo
19:31:00 <HackikiDotOrg> Phantom_Hoover: I've been running HackEgo and Hackiki for months, and people have attempted to hack both of them.
19:31:18 <HackikiDotOrg> Mind you, it may still be the biggest JUSTIFIED security risk ever X-P
19:31:25 * Phantom_Hoover re-reads his original question and gets hit in the face by an egg
19:33:54 <HackikiDotOrg> Don't be confused, however: It's not resistant to DoSing at all :P
19:36:30 <HackikiDotOrg> It's kinda hard to imagine how anything even vaguely similar to Hackiki could be resistant to DoSing :(
19:37:25 <relet> but then, even a wiki that doesn't run code is not resistant to DoS. (DDoS at least)
19:38:08 <HackikiDotOrg> Well, you can be resistant to non-distributed DoS by just being a better machine than the attacker.
19:38:28 <HackikiDotOrg> But Hackiki makes it possible for a small amount of action by an attacker to produce a (relatively) large (though fixed) amount of action by the server.
19:40:46 <relet> can it be made permanent?
19:41:41 -!- HackikiDotOrg has set topic: (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:42:08 -!- HackikiDotOrg has changed nick to Gregor-W.
19:43:05 <relet> the damage.. I guess you could add an idle loop on the main page, but DoS is only interesting if the target is high profile, or the damage is permanent.
19:44:09 <Gregor-W> Ah. I suppose that depends on your definition. All changes to the filesystem are trivially revertable, and DoSing will never be capable of producing a process that doesn't kill itself in 30 seconds.
19:44:33 <Gregor-W> However, a permanently DoSing box could do "permanent" damage in that it could constantly DoS.
19:48:12 <Gregor-W> Anywho, everybody vote and then we'll decide :P
19:48:20 <Gregor-W> I haven't voted because I have an obvious bias.
19:48:40 <Gregor-W> Vote yes in the poll in the topic, not in the channel :P
19:49:25 <Gregor-W> Google search for "online polls" or something X-P
19:50:37 <oklopol> or maybe "too sane", if you're talking about writing a voting service just for this poll
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19:52:10 <oklopol> so if the growth of a cayley graph's balls with the usual presentation metric is superlinear, then CA's on it can't be positively expansive
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19:53:40 <oklopol> with the shift dynamics, and the usual topology for the cayley graph
19:54:08 <Gregor-W> Speaking of positively expansive ...
19:54:27 <oklopol> oh lol i didn't even realize that
19:54:32 <oklopol> just the cayley graph's balls part
19:55:10 <oklopol> also maybe it should be CAa
19:56:36 <coppro> anyway, the poll is conclusive
19:57:11 <oklopol> a dynamical system (X, T) is positively expansive if there's an e > 0 such that for all x != y both in X there's a t \in T such that d(xt, yt) > e
19:57:28 <oklopol> i'm sure definition exchange catches on if i do it for long enough
19:58:05 <Gregor-W> coppro: Two votes seems sufficient to me :P
19:58:22 <coppro> Gregor-W: Everyone else must have chosen not to vote
19:58:40 <Gregor-W> Let me start a poll to debate whether the poll should be linked to from the wiki :P
20:00:07 <oklopol> what do you mean port it over and swap it out?
20:00:31 <coppro> replace the current MediaWiki with a Hackiki
20:00:40 <Gregor-W> Dump the current wiki, do whatever porting is necessary to put all the content into Hackiki, then replace it.
20:01:24 <oklopol> thought so but then i started wondering if swapping out was just putting it online, not sure why,
20:01:27 <pikhq> Interesting. The C preprocessor is *actually* Turing-complete.
20:01:38 <coppro> through recursive includes?
20:01:41 <pikhq> Gregor-W: #include __FILE__
20:02:04 <coppro> macro replacement is allowed to work on filenames
20:02:06 <pikhq> Someone implemented the Game of Life in it.
20:02:12 <coppro> and I should say required
20:02:40 <pikhq> http://zeroindexed.com/cpp-conway
20:03:22 <pikhq> It halts when the C preprocessor maxes out its recursion depth.
20:03:43 <pikhq> Because it doesn't TCO.
20:03:53 <cpressey> "Well, it turns out that the writers of the GNU cpp [...] neglected to do tail-call optimization if an #include is the last directive in the file.
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20:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I still find that kind of thing weird, for some reason.
20:06:59 <coppro> that's not actually turing complete
20:07:09 <coppro> since its state is finite
20:07:24 <coppro> and not limited by the environment around it
20:07:25 <pikhq> It could readily be extended to being infinite.
20:07:40 <pikhq> Erm... No, wait, couldn't.
20:07:46 <cpressey> Assuming no limit on length of identifiers?
20:08:15 <pikhq> Because the identifiers themselves are not generated, but rather hardcoded.
20:08:52 <pikhq> So, it's merely C-complete, not Turing complete.
20:09:35 <pikhq> ... Wait a second.
20:09:59 <pikhq> *There is no requirement that the numbers offered by the C preprocessor are bound.*
20:10:08 <cpressey> Although I suspect lambda calculus will be easier to do than a CA.
20:10:21 <cpressey> Well, a 2D CA like life, i mean.
20:10:30 <pikhq> coppro: None at all..
20:10:46 <pikhq> And the preprocessor offers reasonable (basic) arithmetic.
20:10:48 <coppro> you should be able to do it then
20:10:54 <coppro> since an unbounded integer can code arbitrary data
20:11:15 <cpressey> Does the preprocessor even grok numbers? It mostly does strings (which can store numbers in unary, of course)
20:11:16 <coppro> but then you run into the macro expansion problem
20:12:15 <cpressey> Ah, I see it does understand numbers, to some degree.
20:13:00 <pikhq> Yes, it does do numbers.
20:17:17 <AnMaster> wow, just wow. A hot air balloon just passed above. Like 20 meters above the roof.
20:17:50 <AnMaster> it went down some hundred meters away, behind a low hill. Didn't get the camera until it was already over the next house
20:30:36 <cpressey> coppro, pikhq: I totally think it can be done. Macros can expand to other macros, and those get expanded immediately, ... or am I misremembering?
20:30:51 <coppro> cpressey: yes, but not recursively
20:30:57 <pikhq> cpressey: Macros can expand to other macros, but you can't expand to *defining* other macros.
20:31:01 <coppro> so any such expansion must be finite
20:31:37 <cpressey> I think you can do a cyclic tag system.
20:31:42 <pikhq> And yeah, it's necessarily not-recursive.
20:32:29 <coppro> the other issue is that you cannot assign the value of a calculation to a variable
20:32:47 <coppro> all you can do is branch based on it
20:33:08 <cpressey> coppro: If there are a finite number of possibilities, that shouldn't be a problem: assign at the branch.
20:33:09 <pikhq> TC-ness in CPP will pretty much end up being very much like lambda calculus.
20:33:24 <coppro> cpressey: it must be capable of infinite calculation to be TC
20:33:57 <cpressey> coppro: Yes, but that;'s what the recursive include is for. At each step, there are a finite number of possible replacements.
20:34:36 <cpressey> Just like, in a TM, there a finite number of states.
20:34:44 <coppro> a TM has infinite states
20:34:55 <coppro> because the total state includes the entire tape
20:35:11 <cpressey> I use the word "configuration" for that. The state is the state of its state machine transition table thing.
20:35:18 <coppro> ok, fine, configuration
20:35:25 <coppro> you are still limited to finite configurations in CPP
20:35:37 <coppro> because you cannot take the result of a calculation and store it for later
20:35:53 <coppro> *store it for use in later calculations
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20:36:23 <coppro> all you can do is branch, which is necessary finite
20:36:36 <coppro> you need at least one infinite dimension to have TC-ness; CPP has 0
20:36:58 <coppro> err, two and 1, respectively; I forgot about the program itself
20:36:59 <pikhq> coppro: Numbers are unbound.
20:37:25 <cpressey> As are lengths of identifiers, unless I'm mistaken.
20:37:26 <pikhq> (well, rather, not necessarily bound)
20:37:41 <pikhq> Yeah, but there's finite identifiers.
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21:34:34 <Sgeo__> I think for disconnecting too often. No one said anything, there was no message
21:34:43 <Sgeo__> Just when I try to /j ##C, it says I'm banned
21:34:49 <Gregor-W> Sgeo__: Also vote in my poll (I don't care which way you vote, I just want to know whether it's worth my time)
21:35:16 <Sgeo__> Wait, as in a separate one?
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21:36:33 <Gregor-W> It's so anonymous, I have no idea what you voted X-P
21:37:22 <coppro> I think I know every vote so far
21:37:32 <coppro> excuse me while I browbeat some regulard
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21:38:18 <Sgeo__> * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
21:38:18 <Sgeo__> * Cannot join ##C (You are banned).
21:40:12 <Gregor-W> coppro: So long as you, my unpaid unbiased representative, does the browbeating, it's OK :P
21:40:40 <coppro> Gregor-W: I will act in my official capacity as an unbiased Pirate.
21:41:56 -!- sshc has changed nick to sshc_.
21:42:16 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
21:50:49 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, I'm going to assume it's related to disconnects
21:50:57 <Gregor-W> Sgeo__: Are you sure it's not just because it's +r?
21:51:05 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to Sgeo.
21:51:08 <Gregor-W> And Sgeo__ with a proliferation of underscores is unregistered
21:51:41 <Sgeo> Well, that worked
21:51:43 -!- augur has joined.
21:51:48 <Sgeo> >NickServ< identify ****
21:51:48 <Sgeo> -NickServ- You are already logged in as SgeoBot
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21:54:22 <Gregor-W> Also a month ago I embarrassed myself by complaining about the EXACT same situation :P
21:54:51 <Gregor-W> 't wasn't ##c though, I don't recall now what channel it was.
21:55:46 <Sgeo> So it wasn't the exact same situation, liar!
21:56:11 <Gregor-W> It also wasn't exactly the same because I'm not Sgeo, and Gregor didn't point out the issue.
22:01:33 <pikhq> And it was a month ago.
22:05:13 -!- madk has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:09:51 <Gregor-W> MSNBC uses some service "cachefly.net". I've never heard of it. I'll bet that if I go to that page, SOMEWHERE on it will be the phrase "you cache more flies with honey"
22:10:12 <Gregor-W> Only not on account of there not actually being a page there.
22:11:51 -!- cpressey has changed nick to cpressey_.
22:12:09 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
22:12:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________.
22:13:41 -!- PH______________ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:14:21 <cpressey> Should I design a new language?
22:14:46 <cpressey> (TODAY IS STUPID QUESTIONS DAY)
22:15:22 <cpressey> That wasn't actually meant to imply that PH______________'s question about the justification line was stupid, however.
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22:24:03 <cpressey> And: Will my unit tests pass this time?
22:25:13 <cpressey> The whole argument about how dynamic languages make things quicker by removing the build step kind of falls apart when you need to run 7 minutes worth of unit tests to figure out if the change you've made actually solves the problem without creating any new ones.
22:26:00 <cpressey> Never mind the possibility that some of the unit tests aren't actually correct. And never mind the FACT that a test can't tell you as much as a proof would.
22:26:29 <pikhq> And never mind that compilation has very little to do with dynamic typing.
22:26:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Just trying to refactor some crap at work.
22:27:04 <olsner> cpressey: but it's dynamic !!
22:27:16 <olsner> dynamic must be better because c++ is static and c++ sucks
22:27:21 <Gregor-W> Uhh, but compiling doesn't solve that at all :P
22:27:40 <pikhq> People seem to think that only "dynamic" languages are reasonable, modern languages.
22:27:47 <cpressey> And by "refactor", I mean "move from Lovecraftian levels of insanity to merely Nixonian ones."
22:28:06 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Yes, his *point* is that dynamic typing is not the magic "ZOMG CODE FASTER" thing that people think it is.
22:28:08 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Hey, I resemble that statement!
22:28:30 <pikhq> Gregor-W: You. Haskell. Now.
22:28:46 <Gregor-W> I've used Haskell! I wrote a raycaster in Haskell!
22:29:08 <pikhq> You realise that's as static as they come, right? :P
22:29:18 <Gregor-W> I never said I was a fan of Haskell :P
22:29:31 <Gregor-W> (Although for reasons having nothing to do with typing discipline)
22:29:32 <pikhq> You. Moar Haskell. Now.
22:29:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
22:29:47 <pikhq> What *don't* you like about Haskell?
22:30:12 <pikhq> This is probably going to be more fruitful than me just saying "But TYPING!". :P
22:30:16 <olsner> Gregor-W resembles a statement?
22:30:42 <Gregor-W> The language is an unstable equilibrium. It has a lot of brilliant features, but if any of them were to change, the whole language falls apart. Just look at how far the eager dialects of Haskell have(n't) gone. It's a linguistic dead end.
22:30:54 <fizzie> olsner: He's got a semicolon at his end.
22:31:18 <olsner> oh, poor boy, what happened to the other half?
22:31:32 <pikhq> ... Yes, Haskell does rely on the default non-strict evaluation...
22:31:50 <pikhq> This is a bit like complaining about how everything else relies on default strict evaluation though.
22:32:23 <Gregor-W> Nononono, I'm not complaining about that feature.
22:32:39 <Gregor-W> I'm complaining about the fact that that feature is so intertwined with every other feature that it CAN'T change.
22:32:50 <Gregor-W> Nor can any other feature change.
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22:33:09 <Gregor-W> Because the whole language is a mess of features that all rely on each other and make no sense except in the context of a complete Haskell.
22:33:31 <Gregor-W> Which makes it virtually impossible to imagine a language based on Haskell but with improvements, since anything you change breaks everything else.
22:33:50 <Gregor-W> So, unless you're arguing that Haskell is the One True Perfect Language For All Things, I argue that it's a linguistic dead end.
22:34:02 <pikhq> Okay, so you dislike that you basically can't take away any of lazy semantics, strict typing, or pattern matching and still have a Haskell.
22:34:08 <pikhq> Oh, and type classes.
22:34:16 <pikhq> Those are also pretty damned embedded in their.
22:34:33 <cpressey> Well, you can never really take anything away from a language, can you? Not without a huge fight.
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22:35:36 <pikhq> Of course, things like strict semantics, static weak typing, and direct memory access are embedded very deeply in C, and I don't see you complaining about that. :P
22:36:19 <pikhq> (seriously, just take away pointers from C and you have a dramatically different language)
22:36:25 <Gregor-W> The fact that I'm at work and secondary fact that I haven't used Haskell in a fair amount of time makes me incapable of forming a more complete argument. You're listing a VERY small subset of the set of intertwined features.
22:37:00 <pikhq> ... What other features are there in the core language?
22:37:07 <cpressey> Gregor-W: can you give an example of a language with a linguistic future, for comparison?
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22:37:47 <pikhq> (BTW, if you cite "monads" you FAIL FAIL FAIL FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER.)
22:39:32 <Gregor-W> Also the fact that Haskell fanboys are just as bad as fanboys of every other godawful language out there doesn't help :P
22:39:47 <cpressey> Gregor-W: In some ways, they're worse.
22:39:57 <olsner> the difference is that haskell fanboys are right! :P
22:40:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:40:56 * pikhq tries to think of any other features *of* straight-up Haskell other than non-strict evaluation, strict typing, pattern matching, closures, type classes, and type inference...
22:41:05 * pikhq is having trouble.
22:41:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Are defined in the standard library, not a feature of the bare language!
22:42:09 <Gregor-W> Weeeeelll ... IO monads require more than the core can provide obviously.
22:42:42 <pikhq> Yes, the IO implementation requires some support from the C runtime.
22:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, could you fake a Haskell function with C or assembly, the use it to mess around with immutable memory?
22:43:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:43:12 <pikhq> You could actually do this *without* C or assembly.
22:43:15 <olsner> I think that technically, IO could be implemented in the RTS without really involving the core language :)
22:43:21 <Gregor-W> unsafePerformIO to the "rescue"
22:43:39 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Not even.
22:43:45 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Just unsafeCast :: a -> b
22:43:55 <cpressey> This sums up how Haskell fanboys are extra-obnoxious: Wadler has compared IO monads to a solution to Descartes' mind-body problem.
22:44:07 <olsner> (remove that smiley btw, it was said thoughtfully not jokingly)
22:44:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, there are also *anonymous* functions in Haskell...
22:44:41 <oerjan> olsner: IO _could_ be implemented as an ordinary datatype which the RTS just interprets specially.
22:44:51 <pikhq> Anyways. What else *is* there in Haskell?
22:45:01 <Gregor-W> Hey people who are now actually talking in the channel, go vote on the poll in the topic ;)
22:47:00 <oerjan> pikhq: unsafeCast can be implemented with unsafePerformIO, well known hack
22:47:46 <Gregor-W> I think we've strayed from the fundamental point.
22:47:47 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: ... would you like a reference? Google "How to Declare an Imperative"
22:47:50 <Gregor-W> Which is that Hackiki is awesome.
22:48:00 <Gregor-W> And if you want to prove that Haskell is awesome, you should write a Hackiki userland in Haskell.
22:50:59 <Gregor-W> HaskellWiki is the only MediaWiki I've ever seen that doesn't look like MediaWiki.
22:51:08 <Gregor-W> Usually you can identify MediaWiki from a kilometer away.
22:52:00 <Phantom_Hoover> You can make MediaWiki look like it was made inn the early 90s if you toy enough.
22:52:28 <Gregor-W> And yet, every MediaWiki out there looks like Wikipedia did last year :P
22:53:15 <oerjan> !haskell import System.IO.Unsafe; import Data.IORef; unsafeRef :: IORef a; unsafeRef = unsafePerformIO (newIORef undefined); unsafeCast :: a -> b; unsafeCast x = unsafePerformIO $ do { writeIORef unsafeRef x; readIORef unsafeRef }; main = (unsafeCast (42 :: Integer) :: Double) `seq` print "Boo!"
22:54:09 <oerjan> it worked on first attempt XD
22:54:29 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
22:54:45 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Anyways, HASKELL IS PERFECT THERE CAN BE NO IMPROVEMENTS THEREFORE I DONT CARE
22:55:21 <Gregor-W> aliseiphone: I want to know what peoples' opinions are before I invest any actual time *shrugs*
22:55:23 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Gregor-W believes in DEMOCRUCY.
22:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, the reason all MediaWikis look the same is because all of the other skins are *hideous*.
22:56:50 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry it's on hard disk #3745. It was really designed for wikis viewable by anyone and editable by one, anyway.
22:57:04 <Gregor-W> aliseiphone: And then watch it languish like every other project I've ever started; I'd rather know that it's languishing because people lied to me than because it's uninteresting.
22:57:32 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Pity you have too many projects. :P
22:57:36 <aliseiphone> My way of saying "somewhere, some computer".
22:57:38 <Gregor-W> Hard dis{k,c}s are usually round.
22:57:59 <olsner> the round discs in the rectangular disk are round
22:58:10 <Gregor-W> The platter is the disk, the rest is just the interface.
22:59:23 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Is it greater than 30C?
22:59:46 <Gregor-W> pikhq: I guess an Esolangs Hackiki wouldn't really be a "new" project, just an extension of the Hackiki project.
23:00:00 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Then shaddup.
23:00:22 <cpressey> You won't find them here, mate.
23:01:16 <cpressey> They're probably trying to torture her psychologically a la The Prisoner.
23:01:34 <cpressey> Why *did* you resign, aliseiphone?
23:02:06 <pikhq> cpressey: 2 more days!
23:02:19 <cpressey> She's probably busy waving her hands in the air instead of typing. Quite reasonable.
23:02:57 <oerjan> <cpressey> And: Will my unit tests pass this time?
23:03:06 <oerjan> will your unit pass the test of time?
23:04:46 <oerjan> aliseiphone: well it _could_ grow to a globe-spanning evil conspiracy. unless it's already part of one.
23:06:11 <aliseiphone> Fine: NHS part of British govt part of globalised neoliberal capitalism.
23:06:19 <oerjan> a globe-spanning evil conspiracy of universal healthcare systems. until _recently_ the USA was the only free country holding out against them...
23:06:38 <pikhq> aliseiphone: *cough* Britain does not have a government. That's an island.
23:07:22 <pikhq> aliseiphone: England does not have its own government.
23:07:32 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Geddit? Free country? And implying they don't have universal healthcare?
23:08:02 <pikhq> Pity there's not an English Parliament or anything.
23:08:32 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Except it's the UK Parliament.
23:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I would be surprised if it didn't, since they're the same for a lot of other stuff like that.
23:08:45 <aliseiphone> oerjan: The US btw do NOT have healthcare as we know it
23:08:51 <pikhq> And Wales has its own NHS.
23:09:00 <pikhq> oerjan: USA still doesn't have reasonable healthcare.
23:09:36 <pikhq> oerjan: What it recently enacted was basically a scheme to further discourage a lack of private insurance.
23:10:06 <pikhq> By fining not-tiny businesses for not offering insurance to employees and fining individuals for not having insurance.
23:10:36 <pikhq> And then a bunch of regulations on the insurance companies.
23:10:50 <pikhq> *Aaaand* a "high-risk" insurer for people that the insurance companies *refuse to insure*.
23:10:50 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: No doctors who deserve that name here!
23:11:05 * oerjan thinks people are _really_ bad at detecting his jokes today.
23:11:19 <Gregor-W> Nationalized healthcare is socialism.
23:11:23 <pikhq> oerjan: It's just that the US is still holding out.
23:11:53 <Gregor-W> D'awww you're right I could've gotten to Hitler.
23:12:06 <pikhq> And of course Hitler is fascism. Fascism is right-wing. Right-wing is all-American. Therefore, HITLER FOR PRESIDENT 2012!
23:12:24 <pikhq> Ah, yes. I missed a step.
23:12:41 <aliseiphone> Therefore Obama is Stalin is Mussolini is Hitler.
23:13:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well nazism is hell, of course
23:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Obama lives in the White House. According to Casey & Andy, the Devil lived in the White House.
23:13:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: And they're all right-wing, therefore it is unAmerican and unChristian to vote against them.
23:13:41 <aliseiphone> Best way to prove Obama is Jesus, ever. Via *Hitler*!
23:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, SPARC is short for "Scalable Processor Architecture".
23:16:52 <cpressey> "If given an optional parameter sizehint, it reads that many bytes..." <-- I totally read that parameter name as "shiznit".
23:18:01 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: "Phantom MacArthur" ??
23:18:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i found that rather thin
23:19:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but that's because you're, like, Morgan-Mar's partner in pun.
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23:30:48 * Sgeo goes to attempt to get rid of these closures
23:31:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:33:01 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
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23:38:33 <Sgeo> Anything is bad if it hampers readability
23:38:42 <oerjan> they're so closed-minded
23:38:42 <Sgeo> And I'd say closures nested 3 levels deep do that
23:39:19 <Sgeo> Actually, no, I'm still planning on using them, just moving the bulk of the code to named functions
23:39:28 <Sgeo> All the closures will do is call the functions with arguments
23:39:34 <cpressey> oerjan: Sgeo needs closure on this issue
23:40:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:40:38 <Sgeo> AW is not a language
23:40:48 <Sgeo> This is for an AW project though, so
23:41:01 <Sgeo> You actually think I'm an idiot?
23:41:13 <oerjan> aliseiphone: DON'T ANSWER THAT
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23:41:36 <aliseiphone> Madk is going around on talk pages suggesting pages be deleted because of ais deleting his
23:41:49 <oerjan> wait, what did ais delete
23:42:00 <cpressey> Right on! Wiki fight! Fight fight fight grrrr haaa!
23:44:06 <Gregor-W> Hell, the EgoBF suite doesn't have its own page.
23:44:06 <cpressey> What pages is he suggesting deleting?
23:45:04 <cpressey> "Assuming no copyvio because I didn't copy anything". Gotta love pedantry.
23:45:28 <cpressey> Wow, big article though, I was expecting a stub (on Maentwrog)
23:46:07 <pikhq> olsner: EgoBF is Gregor's Brainfuck implementation.
23:46:24 <olsner> oh, ok, just an implementation?
23:46:42 <pikhq> It's a suite of compilers and interpreters, and fairly complete.
23:46:54 <Gregor-W> olsner: It's interesting only in that most of the commonly-variable behavior of BF implementations is switchable by flags, and it includes both compilers and interpreters *shrugs*
23:47:17 <olsner> aha, "egobf suite" sounded like it might've been a test suite or something (which would've been interesting since I have an interpreter that could use some testing)
23:47:50 <pikhq> Nah; it's just a set of implementations that should fulfill your every desire in Brainfuck.
23:48:13 <pikhq> Hmm. Does it have bignum cells, or does it just top off at 64?
23:49:06 <Gregor-W> Which is pointless since I also wrote all the transforms necessary to make a program expecting 64-bit cells run on an 8-bit interpreter on the wiki :P
23:49:07 <cpressey> Hey, Keymaker is still on the wiki. Cool
23:50:26 <olsner> do you also have a bignum->8-bit transformation? :)
23:50:50 <Gregor-W> That'd be ... tough. Infinite hotel rooms problem.
23:50:59 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Oh, that's *your* code? :D
23:51:00 <Gregor-W> Right, doing an interpreter would be easier than a translation.
23:51:33 <Gregor-W> pikhq: If you refer to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions , then yes.
23:51:36 <olsner> can't be impossible since any halting program has an upper bound to the size of the bignums it could create
23:51:59 * pikhq has half a mind to make a Brainfuck compiler that supports higher bitwidths by applying those.
23:52:52 <pikhq> Hmm. And you can apply those *recursively*...
23:53:02 <pikhq> Megabyte-cell Brainfuck!
23:53:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Please translate this amazing poetry to Japanese: Feng shui children cry / because rice tastes like fish / but actually only in Korea / death on the streets / of LOVE / why have you got to / must the of it / affadavit / quarks are my special things / why did our country die? / laser horse
23:53:54 <olsner> if you can detect overflowing cells, you could apply a bit-doubling transformation and restart
23:56:27 <olsner> the of it must, or is it?
23:57:12 <aliseiphone> bjornwasabadmanlivinginabadplacethepubhewalkedoutintothedeafeningroarofsilentstreetsandlpannedhisjourney
23:57:17 <oerjan> aliseiphone: *affidavit
23:58:07 <oerjan> that laser horse at the end keeps reminding me of burma shave
23:58:31 <aliseiphone> SLOWLY DISROBING EVERY PERSON IN THE ROOM, BRIAN BLESSED THOUGHT OF BJORN, LOUDLY.
23:59:01 <cpressey> burmashave.com, otoh, belongs to "American Safety Razor Co."
23:59:50 <pikhq> aliseiphone: 風水な子泣く・飯が魚味ので・けど韓国にだけ・道に死・愛の・何故しなくちゃ・必要の・アフィデビット・クアークが僕の特もの・何故我が国死んだ？・レーザ馬
00:00:24 <cpressey> I notice a question mark in there
00:00:45 <cpressey> Oh, why must our country die, I see
00:00:48 <aliseiphone> pikhq: How did you do "must the of it"? :P
00:01:08 * oerjan sees only question marks, of course
00:01:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: "The needing of"
00:01:56 <aliseiphone> Did you translate it as affadavit or affidavit? :P
00:02:19 <pikhq> ... Affidavit is what I transcribed.
00:02:52 <pikhq> Would it make you feel better to know that that was inherently a neologism?
00:02:56 <aliseiphone> I SAID AFFADAVIT. FANCY YOURSELF A POET? SHEESH!
00:03:48 <Sgeo> Ok, one of the closures can stay.
00:04:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: BUT THE OTHER ONE IS DEAD MEAT
00:04:04 <pikhq> It was more "Afidebitto".
00:04:05 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Now a true translator would make "must the of it" and "affadavit" rhyme. Somehow.
00:04:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Japanese poetry doesn't rhyme.
00:04:26 <cpressey> "have the of it" almost does it
00:04:32 <Sgeo> I was wrong about the nesting level
00:04:39 <Sgeo> There a closure in a closure, that's it
00:04:44 <Sgeo> Those closures are dead.
00:04:51 <pikhq> Though: "Hitsuyou no/afidebitto" almost does.
00:05:05 <aliseiphone> cpressey: It rhymes in English; not Japanese.
00:05:30 * cpressey wonders who the smeg Casey & Andy are and why they've been mentioned three times in here today
00:05:31 <augur> oerjan you suck at japanification of words.
00:05:39 <Gregor-W> Hello, my name is Afidebitto Kuaku.
00:05:48 <oerjan> augur: i'm just imitating what pikhq uses to do :D
00:06:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Poorly as hell. :P
00:06:12 <oerjan> cpressey: webcomic mad scientists
00:06:23 <pikhq> oerjan: "Ahuxit`eh`ixtuto". :)
00:06:35 <augur> pikhq: stop it, noone here speaks maltese.
00:06:50 <oerjan> pikhq: oh i forgot the x thing
00:07:23 <cpressey> oerjan: ty but that answers only the first half of my wonderment
00:07:41 <pikhq> oerjan: How else to encode small vs. large kana?
00:08:04 <pikhq> aliseiphone: *shudder*
00:08:06 <oerjan> cpressey: well the previous time i saw it was a joke about norwegians afaict
00:08:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Or case?
00:08:09 <augur> imma go walk around outside for a bit
00:08:53 <oerjan> cpressey: if it was Phantom_Hoover each time, presumably he's been reading the archive
00:08:59 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ahuit`eh`ituto?
00:09:06 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Prefix.
00:09:31 <pikhq> *ahu*i*t`eh`i*tu*to*?
00:09:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I burnt through it in under a day, and now there's a HOLE where my soul should be.
00:10:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: go lie on the couch and dream of being king of sweden
00:12:51 <pikhq> ... For the dakuten?!?
00:13:00 <pikhq> (which, BTW, looks like ﾞ)
00:13:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: That'll learn ya.
00:13:41 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Now what say you about the handakuten?
00:13:54 <pikhq> Lessee. Example word...
00:14:24 <pikhq> 六百, roxtuh^ixyaku.
00:14:32 <pikhq> In Hepburn, that's "roppyaku".
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00:14:54 <oerjan> handakuten are so handy
00:15:25 <olsner> handakuten => handy :)
00:15:30 <pikhq> oerjan: More like half-y. "han" is "half".
00:15:57 <oerjan> and dy is the other half
00:16:35 <olsner> oh, han-dakuten? I thought you were talking about hand-akuten
00:16:59 <pikhq> What, the hand-evil-mark?
00:17:22 <pikhq> ("aku" is evil and "ten" is mark)
00:17:31 <oerjan> olsner: your hearing is not quite acute, i take
00:17:47 <olsner> that's a grave accusation
00:19:05 <oerjan> olsner: hey i mentioned nothing about your being undead
00:19:42 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Voiced marked.
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00:42:18 <Sgeo> Manually testing everything is fun!
00:43:03 <Gregor-W> Never testing anything is fun!
00:44:01 <Sgeo> But enjoying the fruits of your labor is also testing
00:44:19 <Sgeo> Are you saying the most fun to be had is when you write code that you never see do anything?
00:47:43 <Gregor-W> http://codu.org/projects/ suggests so.
00:48:51 <cpressey> Three projects called "My Project"
00:50:59 <Gregor-W> Two aren't mine and one is too stupid to deserve a name.
00:51:05 <oerjan> must be an xkcd reference
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01:03:54 <calamari> re: hackiki... I had a bot that allowed access to a root shell .. channel users kept destroying it for no reason, saying it was not useful for anything else
01:05:10 <calamari> so I imagine your hackiki might suffer a similar fate due to immaturity.. don't waste your time :)
01:05:50 <Sgeo> `run echo Any outpiut?
01:05:54 <HackEgo> babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20778 \ wunderbar_emporium
01:06:21 <Sgeo> `run echo `whoami`
01:06:30 <Sgeo> `run echo `ls`
01:06:31 <HackEgo> babies bin cube2.base64 cube2.jpg hack_gregor hello.txt help.txt huh netcat-0.7.1 netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz out.txt paste poetry.txt quotes qw.pl share tmpdir.21044 wunderbar_emporium
01:06:51 <pikhq> Okay, so clearly, can't demonstrate it.
01:06:58 <pikhq> calamari: HackEgo is root.
01:07:04 <Sgeo> `run echo `who`
01:07:25 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
01:08:00 <calamari> pikhq, are you saying the people on #esoteric have grown up? or was it more of a way that people were disrespecting me?
01:09:12 <Sgeo> I think Hackiki is designed to be recoverable
01:09:33 <calamari> I recovered it like 10 times then gave up due to the idiocy of people
01:09:50 <calamari> they kept saying they had to hack it.. but they were already root so it was completely stupid
01:09:54 <pikhq> calamari: More just that they're idiots. :P
01:10:10 <Sgeo> Maybe they wanted to break it out of its jail
01:10:15 <Sgeo> Hack your system
01:11:14 <calamari> unlikely.. it was running inside a qemu vm
01:11:23 <Sgeo> Did they know that?
01:12:03 <Sgeo> Maybe they knew of some weird qemu exploit
01:12:19 <calamari> I think they said something like that it wasn't useful because they could just run things on their own machine and the only use for my bot was to find clever ways of hacking it
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02:07:38 <derdon> why is a befunge script restricted to 80x25 commands?
02:07:41 <calamari> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.04.19
02:07:50 <derdon> why is there a restriction at all?
02:08:45 <coppro> derdon: Befunge-98 is not restricted
02:09:21 <derdon> coppro: oh. I thought befunge-93 was the latest version (I clicked on the links in the wikipedia rticle)
02:09:40 <oerjan> oh no, that's the _oldest_
02:10:06 <oerjan> only those two are used any nowadays, anyway
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02:10:47 <Gregor> cpressey isn't on or we'd yell at 'im for you :P
02:10:56 <derdon> BOTOH, 80x25 is very much for an esoteric language :D
02:11:30 <oerjan> also, 80x25 is the "standard" unix terminal size
02:12:02 <oerjan> so it was probably intended to be displayed visually in a terminal window
02:12:43 <derdon> oerjan: 270x71 <- this is my terminal size
02:12:47 <oerjan> (or on a literal terminal, i remember those)
02:13:31 <oerjan> derdon: this was back in '93, remember? i think our university still had standard size physical vt terminals by then
02:13:32 <derdon> well, I'm gonna learn 93 cuz it looks easier to understand
02:13:58 <pikhq> It's also much easier to implement.
02:14:03 <oerjan> fungot: no respect for '98, eh?
02:14:03 <fungot> oerjan: i think it costs money
02:14:15 <oerjan> no, fungot, i'm pretty sure it doesn't
02:14:15 <fungot> oerjan: if you want. i was more angry than any of these return true its true?
02:15:49 <fungot> oerjan: should be less vague. how would i go about telling my wife that i'm secretly shagging the plumber?' sense, but not good.
02:16:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
02:17:28 <calamari> okay.. so here is a challenge: given 2 buttons, what is an easily memorable way to enter the digits 0-9, requiring 3 or less button presses, but also handling additional button presses in a way that the user can understand?
02:18:14 <oerjan> erm you realize 3 presses of 2 buttons gives you only 8 options?
02:18:47 <calamari> build a binary tree and with up to 3 presses you'll have 15 states
02:18:52 <pikhq> Yeah, that's enough for 2^4-1.
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02:19:21 <calamari> so that part of the challenge isn't really a challenge :)
02:19:22 <oerjan> um but then you'll need a timeout for knowing if the user's finished
02:19:50 <calamari> oerjan there is another button for that, but that isn't really important to the challenge
02:20:20 <calamari> mostly, I have been trying to figure out something that makes sense from memory
02:20:47 <calamari> and also that doesn't degenerate if you push the buttons too many times
02:20:48 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ [1..3] >>= flip replicateM "ab"
02:20:51 <EgoBot> ["a","b","aa","ab","ba","bb","aaa","aab","aba","abb","baa","bab","bba","bbb"]
02:21:26 <calamari> yeah started off with that.. not exactly easy to remember how to enter a digit
02:23:12 <oerjan> you can drop the ones with 2, actually
02:24:02 <calamari> but that would mean a waste of presses.. could use simple binary if # presses weren't a concern
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02:25:06 <Gregor> BTW, with simultaneously pressing both considered different from pressing one then the other, you could have lots more state space.
02:25:49 <calamari> that'd essentially mean I had 3 buttons
02:25:50 <Gregor> Since 3*3 = 9, you only need two presses that way, with every value being two presses.
02:26:14 <calamari> just have that be the default if you don't press anything
02:26:19 <Aquana> to enter the number n, enter n times the first button and then the second
02:26:48 <Gregor> Aquana: You missed the first part, namely the restriction to "3 or less button presses"
02:27:10 <Gregor> Speaking of, who are you? :P
02:27:31 <oerjan> you could also do binary, but with initial zeroes omitted
02:27:37 <Gregor> How could I be so silly.
02:27:56 <calamari> oerjan: how would I enter 8 or 9?
02:28:21 <Gregor> I didn't realize there was a point :P
02:28:38 <calamari> Gregor: not much of one, I admit :)
02:28:54 <oerjan> this _does_ leave 0 a special case, though
02:29:11 <Gregor> Also I once again point to the /topic for your voting plezzure kthx
02:29:51 <oerjan> 0 could be 111, paradoxically
02:30:23 <oerjan> (000 is already taken for 8)
02:31:11 <calamari> wait, I need to go back through and follow your instructions more closely
02:31:21 <oerjan> 111, , 0, 1, 00, 01, 10, 11, 000, 001
02:31:26 <Gregor> Remove all the leading 0s and the first 1. That is the entire instruction :P
02:31:33 <oerjan> (yeah that's no buttons for 1)
02:31:54 <Gregor> oerjan: OK, THAT'S confusing X-D
02:32:09 <Aquana> if more than one number is to be entered, does it need to know when a number ends and when an other one starts?
02:32:25 <oerjan> calamari: i said 0 needed to be a special case
02:32:32 <oerjan> because there's no first 1 to remove
02:32:57 <calamari> yeah 0 and 1 would be identical
02:34:01 <calamari> well still, I think it's a cool solution, thanks
02:36:33 <Aquana> and whats about pressing both buttons at the same time?
02:37:54 <oerjan> well i didn't use that
02:38:20 <oerjan> it would require ternary, which i suspect doesn't come as easily to many :D
02:38:46 <oerjan> oh and then there could be initial 1 _or_ 2, hm
02:39:01 <calamari> so I'm trying to decide how to handle extra button presses.. lets say they entered 0000, what digit does that produce?
02:40:00 <calamari> hmm actually nm.. I was thinking it was ambiguous, but it isn't
02:40:15 <oerjan> discarding digits is easy. 010 and 011 may be more of a problem.
02:40:40 <Aquana> i'd say do some huffman coding and include the possibility of having both buttons pressed at the same time
02:40:49 <calamari> 0000 -> 10000 = 16, 16 mod 10 = 6
02:41:54 <Aquana> then you can enter multiple numbers without having an "next number"-button
02:42:35 <oerjan> well pushing both could _be_ end of number
02:43:15 <derdon> is there a possibility to comment my befunge-scripts? :P
02:43:48 <calamari> derdon: would that really help? :)
02:44:25 <calamari> actually, if you kept the comments separate, you could just enter arbitrary chars, right?
02:44:43 <Aquana> i didn't see those, but hey its a comment :p
02:45:04 <derdon> calamari: what do you mean? creating a seperate file which explains this script?
02:45:44 <calamari> nope, 1 min I need to make sure I don't butcher befunge
02:46:39 <oerjan> derdon: just put the comments somewhere the IP won't touch them
02:46:53 <oerjan> any character is allowed as long as it isn't executed
02:47:05 <derdon> oerjan: I assume IP == Interpreter
02:47:13 <calamari> okay.. so let's say you have code going left to right.. and you have a v then put your comment after that.. shouldn't get there
02:47:20 <oerjan> instruction pointer, actually
02:47:59 <calamari> anyhow.. yeah if it won't be reached you are safe
02:48:17 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
02:48:21 <calamari> that is what I said badly with "keep your comments separate"
02:48:47 <oerjan> that's befunge 98, but same principle
02:49:26 <calamari> from wikipedia: "Similarly, in Befunge, there is no comment syntax: to embed documentation in the code, the programmer simply routes the control flow around the "comment" area, so that the text in that area is never executed."
02:49:27 <oerjan> of course with 93 the problem could be fitting both the comments and the code into the space available
03:03:27 <calamari> oerjan: the more I look at your solution the more awesome it becomes.. it actually turns out that a simple 10-state machine can handle it
03:04:08 <calamari> well I drew it out as a binary tree
03:05:03 <oerjan> actually i don't see how the 0=111 fits
03:05:24 <calamari> the question was, say, when I encountered a digit lower in the tree, would it have the same leaves as one higher up, and it does
03:06:20 <oerjan> so initial state = 1, reading digit d turns state s into 2*s+d (mod 10)
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03:08:00 <calamari> so the states are (digit-0-1): 001, 123, 245, 367, 489, 501, 623, 745, 867, 989
03:17:40 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; digs = [0..3] >>= replicateM [0,1]; main = print [(s, (length . nub . sort . map (foldl' (\s d -> (2*s + d) `mod` 10) s)) digs) | s <- [0..9]]
03:17:56 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; import Data.List; digs = [0..3] >>= replicateM [0,1]; main = print [(s, (length . nub . sort . map (foldl' (\s d -> (2*s + d) `mod` 10) s)) digs) | s <- [0..9]]
03:18:17 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; import Data.List; digs = [0..3] >>= flip replicateM [0,1]; main = print [(s, (length . nub . sort . map (foldl' (\s d -> (2*s + d) `mod` 10) s)) digs) | s <- [0..9]]
03:18:20 <EgoBot> [(0,8),(1,10),(2,10),(3,10),(4,8),(5,8),(6,10),(7,10),(8,10),(9,8)]
03:19:15 <oerjan> only initial states 1,2,3,6,7,8 gives all possible digits as output
03:21:13 <calamari> if I start in state 0, all I have to do is give 1, then I'm in state 1
03:21:16 <oerjan> if you start with state 0, say (which is the equivalent of not removing the first 1), then you only get 8 possible digits represented
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03:22:49 <oerjan> the rest are a bit more subtle but i _think_ it boils down to state 0 and 9 having digits turning them into themselves, so you don't want those states to be reached early or you lose too many options
03:23:18 <oerjan> (4 and 5 can turn into 9 and 0 respectively)
03:23:28 <calamari> there are no dead ends though, so it is fine
03:23:57 <oerjan> yeah but getting all in 3 presses depends on getting enough branching
03:24:28 <calamari> well basically if I am entering a digit and I mess up then I've forfeited my 3 presses, but I still want to be able to enter it
03:24:45 <calamari> and since that is possible, I'm happy
03:27:08 <calamari> I'll be using this to implement digit entry for my watch calculator program
03:27:54 <calamari> unfortunately the timex data link usb doesn't have a keypad
03:28:18 <calamari> it does have a crown, but the crown gets jumpy with age
03:28:46 <oerjan> so crowns are a royal pain?
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05:08:00 <oerjan> ^ul ((/)~*(\)*S)(~:(a~a(:^)**)~a*^^):^
05:08:01 <fungot> /((/)~*(\)*S)(~:(a~a(:^)**)~a*^^):^\
05:10:18 <oerjan> ^ul (((/)~*(\)*S)(~(:^^)*~^)):^^
05:10:18 <fungot> /((/)~*(\)*S)(~(:^^)*~^):^^\
05:10:54 <oerjan> ^ul (((/)~*(\)*S)(~a(:^^)*~^)):^^
05:10:54 <fungot> /(((/)~*(\)*S)(~a(:^^)*~^)):^^\
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06:17:41 <Ilari> Heh... I'm considering defining floating point extension to Pointer B.
06:21:13 <Ilari> And define it in way that's relatively sane w.r.t. numbers, but almost impossible to implement completely.
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06:23:11 <Ilari> Since it would have (subsets of) functions that are well defined, but would be ph.d just to implement properly... :-)
06:26:05 <Ilari> Already operations like "complex double precision floating point divide" would be quite fun (note that defintion of "double precision" is not the same as "IEEE double precision". It could easily be IEEE quadruple precision)...
06:26:32 <oerjan> listZeroes(riemannZeta, range=(RealPart > 1/2))
06:28:11 <Ilari> One wouldn't need more than extensions of several known special functions to complex domain to be very hard to implement.
06:29:19 <Ilari> With the way reference implemnentation chooses word size, "single precision" would be "IEEE double precision".
06:30:03 <Ilari> Reference implementation has 64 bit words (giving 1Zib data memory).
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06:30:34 <coppro> Ilari: IIRC it's been proven there are no zeroes with Re(w) > 1/2
06:33:19 <oerjan> "Directly from the functional equation one sees that the non-trivial zeros are symmetric about the axis Re(s) = 1/2."
06:34:08 <Ilari> Number of possible different code memory words in Pointer B: 1 112 030.
06:34:43 <oerjan> so if you can prove there are none with Re(w) > 1/2 you will be quite rich and very famous
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06:35:46 <oerjan> which was the point of the above, anyway
06:36:28 <coppro> a friend of a friend put it best... if you prove the Riemann hypothesis, you either tell everybody or nobody
06:36:43 <oerjan> ...i am not aware of anything regarding the riemann hypothesis that would cause the death of people...
06:36:53 <oerjan> now P = NP, on the other hand...
06:38:08 <oerjan> unless someone wants to steal your proof of the riemann hypothesis and take credit, perhaps.
06:38:59 <coppro> oerjan: any solution would likely have profound implications on public-key encryptoin
06:39:23 <oerjan> ...again, i think you are confusing it with P=NP
06:40:07 <coppro> hmm... I could have the quote out of context, but the Riemann hypothesis would have similar implications
06:40:13 <oerjan> at least in so far that most people assume the riemann hypothesis is true, anyway, so _proving_ it won't change much. same with proving P != NP.
06:41:01 <oerjan> the profound implications of proving them in that direction would only be to make people know what they already mostly assume
06:41:14 <oerjan> so wouldn't break anything
06:41:32 <coppro> I'd need to dig up a reference on this one, but IIRC it's expected that the methodology would make finding primes very easy
06:41:35 <Gregor> Proving P!=NP would just make everyone go "*whew*!"
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06:42:43 <oerjan> coppro: public key encryption doesn't depend on primes being hard to find. in fact they're already quite easy enough.
06:43:04 <oerjan> it's _factoring_ that's the key.
06:44:31 * Sgeo wonders if DBus makes any sense on Windows
06:44:33 <Ilari> And there's already primality check that runs in deterministic polynomial time.
06:45:31 <pikhq> Yeah, it's only hard to find very *large* primes. And this is only hard in the sense of practicality.
06:45:51 <pikhq> We could certainly produce some gigabyte primes; it'd just be a waste of time.
06:47:24 <Ilari> Other amusing overkill: 2048-bit EC curves.
06:48:41 <oerjan> redundant acronym syndrome
06:49:45 <oerjan> the very large primes are nearly all mersenne primes, since those are the ones that we have an efficient method to test at that size
06:50:53 <Sgeo> oerjan, very large *known primes, I assume
06:51:32 * Sgeo managed to fail to see that
06:51:49 <Ilari> Figure out class of numbers with even easier (nontrivial) primality check. :-)
06:52:42 <oerjan> something with ackermann functions in it would be great
06:53:55 <oerjan> well, an infinite class with entirely trivial check would be even better
06:54:33 <Ilari> Or hyper operators (extra bonus for getting them to nest)...
06:55:15 <Ilari> Also, numbers involving terms with three conway arrows... :-)
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06:55:43 <Ilari> (those terms are usually freaking huge).
06:56:03 <oerjan> hm i guess a problem is that primes _do_ get rarer. at mersenne prime sizes the numbers still can be prime purely by chance, but with ackermanns involved you'd need some cosmic luck
06:56:36 <Ilari> 3 -> 3 -> 65 -> 2 is bigger than Graham's number... :-)
06:57:25 <oerjan> i wonder if it is known whether adding or subtracting a small constant to those can or cannot be a prime
06:58:11 <Ilari> Well, if you have number with n digits, the number you have to add or substract to make it prime is IIRC O(n).
06:58:47 <oerjan> i know. that's not really helpful with hyper operators.
07:00:33 <Ilari> And even if you got some prime, proving it to be prime would likely be freakishly hard.
07:01:18 <oerjan> subtracting 1 is even, subtracting 2 is divisible by 5.
07:02:03 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham's_number#Rightmost_decimal_digits_of_Graham.27s_number
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07:02:44 <Ilari> The size of prime gap Graham's number is in is likely immense.
07:04:04 <oerjan> yeah if other bases destroy other constant adjustments similarly...
07:04:18 <Sgeo> SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale averted in Cowbirds in Love
07:05:11 <Ilari> Immense meaning you can't even write class number for that number.
07:05:23 <Sgeo> May I spoil up to where we are in this storyline?
07:06:23 <Ilari> 0 => 1-6, 1 => 7-10^6, 2 => 10^6-10^10^6, 3 => 10^10^6+1 - 10^10^10^6, and so on...
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07:08:08 <Ilari> Alternatively one could define that number is immense if one can't write polylog of it.
07:08:39 <oerjan> well that's essentially the size of n in the 3^^n
07:11:04 <Ilari> So finding prime number with Ackermans in it would likely mean finding explicit expression for infinite sequence of primes....
07:14:32 <Ilari> Searching some stuff I hit page claiming that any prime contains one of the following primes as subsequence: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 19, 41, 61, 89, 409, 449, 499, 881, 991, 6469, 6949, 9001, 9049, 9649, 9949, 60649, 666649, 946669, 60000049, 66000049 or 66600049.
07:15:43 <oerjan> well it must end in 1,3,7 or 9 unless it is 2
07:16:04 <oerjan> i guess it's just a matter of prolonging that argument
07:16:59 <oerjan> ah 21, 31, 51, 71 are of course included
07:18:03 <oerjan> so then it's 01, 11, 41, 61, 81, 91, 09, 19, 49, 69, 89, 99
07:18:31 <Ilari> Of course one can have multiple: 194101 has 19 and 41 as subsequences.
07:19:09 <oerjan> i am just assuming we are looking at subsequences of ending subsequences
07:19:39 <Ilari> Subsequences don't have to be of adjacent digits.
07:20:11 <Ilari> E.g. 401 is prime.
07:20:57 <oerjan> should be even easier then
07:24:02 <oerjan> 01, 81, 91, 09, 49, 69, 99
07:24:18 <Ilari> And in base-2 I think similar set would be 10 and 11. Since 2 is the only prime with only one 1 in its binary form.
07:26:35 <oerjan> so naturally everything not of the form {0,8,9}+1|{0,4,6,9}+9 is now taken care of
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07:27:43 <oerjan> (by just the primes < 100 in that list)
07:28:20 <Ilari> The page also claimed that for any language, one can only have finite set of words where no word is subsequence of other words in set.
07:29:00 <oerjan> hm that reminds me of a graph theorem
07:29:56 <Ilari> Also, "A neat consequence of this result is that, given any language L, the set of all subsequences of strings in L is regular. We can't always easily determine the regular expression or automaton for L, but we know it exists.".
07:33:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson%E2%80%93Seymour_theorem i think it was
07:39:15 <oerjan> Ilari: i suspect that your sequence above applies to every odd number as well
07:39:29 <oerjan> well sufficiently large
07:39:40 <oerjan> obviously 1 and 9 are excluded
07:41:31 <Ilari> Isn't there also context free grammar that describes language {0,1}* iff Goldbach conjuncture is true?
07:45:10 <oerjan> or, hm, i recall determining whether a context free grammar gives all strings in the alphabet is undecidable. so quite probably.
07:47:31 <Ilari> IIRC, that problem is co-RE-complete.
07:50:09 <Ilari> IIRC, there are also infinite number of undecidable problems of diffrent difficulty...
07:51:07 <Ilari> The last class of those being RE-complete.
07:52:04 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy#Relation_to_Turing_machines
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08:04:07 * Sgeo wtfs at Boycott Chrome stuff
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08:08:55 <Quadrescence> bsmntbombdood: we talked in the programming channel before. A long time ago we got into fights, and then things cooled off
08:09:13 <Quadrescence> also i remember talking about lambda abstractions
08:15:00 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to manually work out the answer to SMBC's math question
08:15:08 <Sgeo> Because I just realized it's easier than it looks
08:15:43 <Sgeo> No way I'd solve it without some sort of writing thingy though
08:24:13 <Sgeo> Anyone want to check my math?
08:24:14 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/r3pth1N3
08:24:30 <Sgeo> My attempted answer for http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1952 [NSFWish]
08:27:53 <Sgeo> But I certainly would have said the first thing I noticed [It's not actually an integral like x^2 sin x] in less than that
08:27:59 <Sgeo> Maybe she'd be lenient?
08:30:23 <fizzie> The "other thingy" is most likely phi. (And you didn't say p = rho, but I guess that's obvious.) ((Don't have time to actually look at the math now.))
08:30:43 <Sgeo> I didn't realize that that was a greek letter
08:30:48 <Sgeo> I thought it was actually p
08:32:21 <fizzie> It's the radial coordinate in the (ρ, θ, φ) polar coordinates, so it has to be either ρ or r.
08:32:53 <fizzie> Or whatever the 3D variant of polar coordinates are called. Spherical coordinates?
08:33:03 <Sgeo> The thingy was more of an O and I combined
08:33:14 <Sgeo> Wait, no, that's what I called theta
08:33:17 <Sgeo> Possibly mistakenly
08:33:32 * Sgeo isn't so good with his greek letters
08:33:39 <Sgeo> At least I know pi!
08:33:48 <Sgeo> And uppercase sigma!
08:33:49 <fizzie> Phi is written both as φ and as ϕ.
08:34:04 <Sgeo> So what I called theta is really phi, then
08:34:18 <fizzie> Theta's the one that goes horizontally slashed.
08:34:37 <Sgeo> And the "other thingy" is theta, then
08:35:10 <fizzie> Curiously enough, The Standard -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_31-11#Coordinate_systems -- says it's (ρ, φ, z) for cylindrical coords and (r, θ, φ) for spherical; I don't quite see why ρ → r there, since they do reuse φ.
08:38:57 <Ilari> And it isn't even for the same parameter.
08:39:58 * Sgeo failed to see it in terms of standard formulas
08:43:04 <Sgeo> I should sleep now
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10:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a limit to how big an array on the stack can be in C?
11:07:37 <Ilari> Phantom_Hoover: Depends on process stack limit.
11:08:07 <Ilari> Phantom_Hoover: On Linux, the default seems to be 8MiB for entiere stack.
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11:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just looked at Conservapedia's article on Enccyclopdia Dramatica.
11:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to say that ED is a paragon of modern satire...
11:20:43 <Ilari> Conservapedia... One more proof of that there are hardcore lunatics out there...
11:22:45 <Phantom_Hoover> There aren't enough sane people being persecuted to make it worth watching.
11:23:44 <Ilari> Someone: Anything what Poe's law appies to is stupid.
11:26:04 <fizzie> There may be a size limit for an array in general, no matter whether it's on the stack or elsewhere; C99 guarantees that objects of size up to 65535 bytes are okay, but more than that might not.
11:26:55 <Ilari> Outside "embedded" environments, are you likely to run into that limit?
11:27:28 <fizzie> 16-bit DOS in some memory models? I guess that's pretty obsolete nowadays too.
11:27:55 <Ilari> Actually, all memory models except "huge".
11:28:25 <Ilari> 16-bit DOS memory models: tiny, small, compact, medium, large and huge.
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11:29:20 <Ilari> Tiny is incedentially memory model of .com executables.
11:30:21 <Ilari> Nowadays memory model used is "flat".
11:31:18 <Ilari> Which is incidentially essentially 32 (or 64) bit version of tiny model.
11:33:48 <fizzie> I have a vague recollection that at least Visual C 6 compiled Windows executables with (reasonably) tiny stacks; at least I've seen the "why doesn't my array work?" "make it a global or malloc it instead" exchange many times, even for not-so-huge arrays.
11:34:33 <fizzie> "The default stack reservation size used by the linker is 1 MB." (random MSDN Google-hit, not sure about context)
11:34:55 <fizzie> Megabyte's perhaps not tiny, but still small-ish.
11:37:34 <fizzie> Oh, and that 65535-byte guarantee is only for hosted systems, so you can have a C99-compliant freestanding implementation that has even smaller objects.
11:38:50 <fizzie> (And a final bit of trivia; C89/C90 has a similar phrase, but there the limit is 32767 bytes.)
11:41:41 <fizzie> In general a lot of limits seem to have been just approximately doubled in the decade. #include nesting depth from 8 to 15, nested parentheses in a full expression from 32 to 63, significant characters in internal identifiers from 31 to 63, etc. (There's several more cases of *4 too.)
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11:55:57 <Ilari> Tiny: Code and data (and stack) in the same 64k space.
12:03:07 <fizzie> It "uses" segments in the sense that there is one segment, and all the segment regs are initialized with it.
12:05:54 <fizzie> I guess that's as much segment-using that the flat memory model, though.
12:07:04 <Ilari> Flat memory model has CS and DS initialized to different values on x86 (since one can't load CS with data segment nor write to code segment).
12:07:31 <fizzie> That's true; so it uses even more segments, in fact.
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12:19:04 <fizzie> Leisure Suit Larry? Linden Scripting Language? Logical Shift Left?
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12:24:11 <Sgeo> You should have guessed
12:24:31 <fizzie> I sort-of did. I didn't quite grasp what the question there was, though.
12:24:32 <Sgeo> 64k memory total for a script and all .. data
12:24:45 <Sgeo> Used to be 16k
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12:29:04 * Phantom_Hoover wants to write a VM, but can't think of a good excuse.
12:29:21 <Sgeo> The reason for the change? They switched to Mono
12:29:31 <Sgeo> Although there is still support for the old VM
12:30:06 <fizzie> The built-in delays in LSL are also a nice touch.
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12:31:26 <fizzie> Is there anyone advocating LSL for non-second-life general-purpose programming? Or any language reimplementations available?
12:32:37 <Sgeo> There are reimplementations, but those are just so that there are nice external editors
12:33:04 <Sgeo> But I don't think any sane person would advocate LSL for non-SL programming
12:33:35 <Sgeo> Have you seen how it deals with events?
12:34:00 <Sgeo> Or its utter lack of multidimensional lists?
12:35:09 <fizzie> (There's also no shortage for non-sane persons.)
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12:39:09 <fizzie> Heh, the people here have made a "music to make machine learning to" Spotify playlist. I'm not quite sure what any of the contents have to do with machine learning, but...
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12:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, might be good for that orphaned machine learning project I have.
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12:49:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I make no claims that any of this music is good for anything, and the selection is pretty... eclectic (to put a positive spin on it), but http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ml.png
12:50:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Do any of them concisely describe the backpropagation of error algorithm?
12:50:16 <fizzie> Maybe if you play them backwards.
12:51:32 <fizzie> That's heavy metal songs backwards, isn't it?
12:51:49 <fizzie> Don't quote me on this, however, I'm no expert.
12:53:17 <Ilari> Then there's black metal which gives satanic messages when played forward...
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12:55:36 <fizzie> Machinae Supremacy's Spotify biography page describes them as "SiD metal"; since all other sorts of "metal" seems to have backwards messages, I'm sure it's got something too.
13:19:05 <Sgeo> I almost wrote (user!=null)?true:false
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13:20:26 <Warrigal> At least you didn't write (userIsNull!=false)?true:false.
13:20:53 <Warrigal> My older brother used to write Delphi code saying "if someBool = true . . .". It was mildly annoying.
13:21:20 <ais523> comparing bools to true can be dangerous, especially in langs like C where multiple values mean "true"
13:21:25 <ais523> comparing to false is normally safe but silly
13:22:01 <Sgeo> So it's not particularly dangerous to compare with true
13:22:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Time exploded several strips ago, but no-one except the Deaths and the Mythbusters seem to have noticed.
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13:26:42 <Sgeo> I think I'm too tired to program
13:26:59 <Sgeo> I was thinking "I need to add this function. If I don't add this function, this won't work"
13:27:04 <Sgeo> I never added the function
13:29:01 <Sgeo> But I also never added the code that was supposed to call it, so it compiled
13:32:46 <Sgeo> Well, laziness can hurt
13:33:22 <Sgeo> A while ago, I decided that I wanted this 2-dimensional list to be 1-indexed, so I put a null at all coords where one was 0
13:33:36 <Sgeo> Now, when writing the new code, I forgot
13:41:06 <Sgeo> Yes, I was awake when I should have been sleeping
13:47:58 * Sgeo vaguely wants to kill VS2010
13:50:06 <Sgeo> I went to sleep for approx. 0 seconds this past night
14:00:11 <Sgeo> A bit about Vala
14:00:28 * Sgeo can be a bit of an Internet addict sometimes
14:00:44 * Sgeo decides to reenable the midnight cutoff
14:04:41 <Sgeo> I got the notion in my head that it's a great language for writing applications
14:04:53 <Sgeo> It's compiled in a non-managed environment and isn't C++
14:09:05 <Sgeo> ...good question
14:12:38 * Sgeo wonders how many paid Vala jobs there are
14:12:43 <Sgeo> Probably close to none
14:21:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, why not?
14:21:46 <Sgeo> Hypothetically
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15:35:55 * Phantom_Hoover_ wants the image maps that they have in Square Root of Minus Garfield.
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15:46:17 <oerjan> i refuse to bend to your mind-altering powers
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15:50:43 <oerjan> * Phantom_Hoover_ wants the image maps that they have in Square Root of Minus Garfield.
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15:50:50 <Sgeo> So, was my math decent?
15:50:57 <oerjan> maybe look in the discussion forum?
15:52:42 <Sgeo> Someone else got the answer I got :D
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15:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Random copyright thought: if you can have a number that represents a copyrighted work, you can violate copyright with it.
15:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> You can also find a map between any two arbitrary pieces of data.
16:01:09 <cpressey> I have a Goedel encoding of the Mona Lisa right here. But I guess that's in the public domain. Or the Louvre.
16:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but you can easily make a function that maps, say, 3 to the Harry Potter series.
16:02:32 <oklopol> oerjan: may i ask you a math question in pm
16:02:51 <oklopol> the new thing is i ask before i ask
16:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't let us know what kind of sick calculations you're doing!
16:03:28 <cpressey> Unless it's a personal math question, somehow, I for one wouldn't mind it being in the channel.
16:03:33 <oerjan> a disturbing change. has Phantom_Hoover's mind control got to you too?
16:03:43 <oklopol> well sure i could but i wouldn't like it if a random person knew the answer right away
16:04:07 <oklopol> can *two-directional* AFA's be more powerful than DFA's
16:05:02 <oklopol> two-directional DFA's are easily seen to be the same as DFA's, and AFA's i know are the same as DFA's (in power i mean), but i don't know the proof of the latter (well maybe i do but i haven't given it thought) so i don't know what happens when you have both
16:06:05 <oklopol> the reason is if two-directional AFA's give you the regular languages, then i think i solved an open problem
16:06:21 <oklopol> the answer is very simple so i think the assumption that 2dAFA = DFA must be wrong
16:06:21 <oerjan> well i cannot say i've heard the problem before.
16:06:36 <oerjan> (i knew the thing about 2-directional DFAs though)
16:06:59 <oklopol> i didn't actually know it but it's sort of trivial, just remember what happens if you go left
16:07:06 <oklopol> and you can keep that info inductively
16:07:15 <oklopol> gets harder with alternation (maybe, maybe not)
16:07:44 <cpressey> Why would a two-directional AFA give you the regular languages? Maybe I don't appreciate what "two-directional" means here.
16:07:52 <oklopol> cpressey: it can just go left too
16:08:03 <oklopol> the question is not why it wouldn't give them, but why it does
16:08:32 <cpressey> well - | start by making conservative assumptions
16:08:33 <oklopol> it's just ATM without memory
16:08:45 <cpressey> s/|/I/ ... not sure how *that* happenned
16:09:44 <oerjan> i know that alternating polynomial = PSPACE, that's the essence of quantified boolean formula being PSPACE-complete
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16:12:03 <oklopol> there are fun results linking FSA and complexity theory, but i can't start listing now because i have to eat icecream
16:12:44 <oerjan> "A basic theorem tells that any AFA is equivalent to an non-deterministic finite automaton (NFA) by performing a similar kind of powerset construction as it is used for the transformation of an NFA to a deterministic finite automaton (DFA)."
16:13:10 <oerjan> that sounds fairly simple, NFAs are the case just using existentials...
16:13:16 <cpressey> http://www.springerlink.com/content/y10575485h1uu2u6/
16:13:34 <cpressey> It does sound as if multihead or 2dir AFAs are more powerful than DFAs.
16:14:41 <cpressey> "the languages accepted by two-way alternating multihead finite automata are exactly the same languages accepted by determinstic Turing machines in polynomial time".
16:15:59 <oerjan> hm multihead means it can read at several locations simultaneously, no? that's not obviously the same power.
16:16:32 <cpressey> Agreed. I was wondering how you could reduce that to single-headed.
16:16:38 <oerjan> in fact that obviously allows it to check the (^n)^n language
16:17:17 <oerjan> which doesn't seem obvious with 1 head
16:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, did I ever mention that I hate you for the dead links to CET?
16:17:55 <oerjan> central european time is dead, just deal with it
16:18:31 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Hating me will get them fixed, clearly
16:21:13 <cpressey> What the heck is a "nite automaton"? OH... probably google munging the word "finite" in its PS viewer
16:21:52 <Sgeo> Vala's ownership stuff gives me a headache
16:25:23 <cpressey> oklopol: Good luck on proving AFAs can accept (or not) regular languages -- it sounds like it might be an open problem in and of itself.
16:25:47 <cpressey> AFA is an acronym for "Read The Log"
16:26:30 <ais523> admittedly, I've been reading the entire conversation and I'm still unsure as to what an AFA is
16:26:44 <ais523> as in, I know the expansion of the acronym now
16:26:55 <ais523> but not what the actual automaton architecture is
16:27:00 <cpressey> Best description for me was "Like an ATM but without memory"
16:27:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I was unable to find the expansion of the acronym
16:27:26 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what logs are for
16:27:40 <AnMaster> ais523, how long do I need to go back?
16:27:41 <AnMaster> ATM? Async Transfer Mode? Automated Transaction Machine?
16:27:53 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_Turing_machine
16:29:13 <cpressey> And when I wished oklopol good luck, I meant to say "2-way AFAs". Plain AFAs can't, they're equivalent to DFAs.
16:30:28 <AnMaster> I found in logs that the first A stands for Alternating, but now what the FA stands for. I guess it is Finite Automaton or such though
16:32:35 <cpressey> Yes. As it does in DFA and NFA.
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16:33:55 <oerjan> oklopol: a 2-way single-head AFA can _also_ obviously check (^n)^n
16:34:15 <cpressey> Proof that AFAs equal DFAs in power: Convert AFA to NFA (the existential choices are universal choices over a universe of one possibility only.) Then convert the NFA to a DFA through the usual means. QED.
16:35:42 <cpressey> Is this that old joke about "Wait, *is* that obvious...? <<five minutes thinking>> Yes, it's obvious."
16:36:01 <oerjan> nope, it's no longer obvious
16:39:09 <cpressey> I think it's "obvious" that it can't check (^n)^n, but I can't explain how. But I think a lot of things are "obvious" in that way. If I could explain why rigorously, I'd be famous and rich.
16:39:40 <ais523> like the whole TCness of Xigxag/Dupdog?
16:39:48 <ais523> or more probable non-TCness?
16:40:02 <cpressey> Yes, I was going to say, non-TCness of Xigxag :)
16:40:05 <ais523> as in, both languages feel obviously non-TC, but it's hard to prove
16:40:13 <cpressey> Had not heard of Dupdog before.
16:40:14 <ais523> and I'd love for Xigxag to be TC
16:40:20 <ais523> cpressey: it was basically just a joke
16:40:27 <ais523> it's rather xigxag-like, though, yet more complex
16:40:40 <ais523> and also has a tendency to blow up into very long programs with only small bits changing
16:41:12 <ais523> cpressey: not really, the HW program assumes that characters are interpreted mod 257
16:41:17 <ais523> and I see no real justification for such an assumption
16:41:48 <ais523> I think it may still be possible mod 256, just a lot harder
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16:47:34 <cpressey> I keep wanting to apply information theory to these problems. I just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_information_theory . It didn't help.
16:49:58 <oklopol> multihead is always more powerful than nonmultihead, essentially
16:50:54 <oklopol> you can almost never reduce it to single-headed, and for deterministic machines we know DFA with k+1 heads can do languages DFA's with k heads can't
16:51:40 <oklopol> you can prove this with a straightforward diagonalization for k+2 and k by simply accepting the language of all k-head machines that don't accept themselves, you need k heads for simulating the automaton and 2 for bookkeeping
16:52:10 <cpressey> Heads (after the first one) act as a kind of storage, so that makes sense.
16:52:35 <oklopol> "<cpressey> oklopol: Good luck on proving AFAs can accept (or not) regular languages -- it sounds like it might be an open problem in and of itself." <<< well two-way, and why do you say it might be open?
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16:53:54 <oklopol> "<oerjan> brain fart" <<< yes, at least the "obvious" part
16:54:16 <oklopol> 've been thinking about that exact example for quite a while, seems obvious you *can't* do it tho
16:54:32 <cpressey> oklopol: Yes, I missed two way. I saw one paper that suggested the "simplest" models that have been proved >DFA so far are multiheaded.
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16:55:04 <cpressey> I didn't see anything about 2way AFAs, either way. Not conclusive of course
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16:56:18 <oklopol> a DFA with two heads is already "trivially" stronger than one with just one head
16:56:26 <oklopol> trivially if you know where to look
16:56:37 <oklopol> or maybe it's trivially no matter what
16:57:27 <oklopol> as for markers (these little stones you can move around the tape) i don't even know if 1-marker is stronger than 0-marker, because i haven't read the article about k+1 heads > k heads so it might be a special case
16:57:50 <oklopol> i don't really see what you could do with just one marker
16:58:04 <cpressey> Someone should totally come out with an automata theory-themed board game.
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16:59:23 <oklopol> how would that work? i would love it in any case
17:00:54 <cpressey> I dunno -- I mean a lot of board games can probably be reduced to automata of some form...
17:02:20 <cpressey> I did wonder once if you could make a game out of NTMs -- one player tries to choose transitions that will make the machine accept, the other tries to choose transitions that will make it reject
17:03:04 <cpressey> I suspect there is a lot of opportunity for stalemate there though
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17:09:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, NTM? Not Turing Machines?
17:10:07 <cpressey> Nondeterministic Turing Machines
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17:13:49 <cpressey> Snakes and ladders is really just a kind of probabilistic FA -- there is no state except where your token is. The accept state is at the end of the board. (It would be more interesting if the snakes and ladders could move and/or if you had a hand of cards to play instead of rolling dice.)
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17:15:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, if those could move, wouldn't it be like a self modifying FA?
17:16:09 <cpressey> Correction: Proof that AFAs equal DFAs in power: Convert AFA to NFA (the universal choices are existential choices over a universe of one possibility only -- just like you'd convert a DFA to an NFA.) Then convert the NFA to a DFA through the usual means. QED.
17:16:46 <AnMaster> cpressey, wikipedia claims "As a result, the game can be represented as a state absorbing Markov chain." about that game
17:20:21 <cpressey> I guess they're thinking of the history of dice rolls as the data in the chain
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17:38:23 <cpressey> It occurs to me that very few board games have unbounded storage.
17:38:35 <cpressey> D&D is an exception, but it's not really a board game, of course.
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17:38:54 <AnMaster> hm I think one of my drive is starting to fail. Under warranty and part of a RAID 1 array so no worry really.
17:39:20 <cpressey> Also not really a board game, but closer
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17:50:22 <oklopol> "<cpressey> I did wonder once if you could make a game out of NTMs -- one player tries to choose transitions that will make the machine accept, the other tries to choose transitions that will make it reject" <<< NTM's are additive in the sense that you can't add anything and make them accept less stuff
17:51:00 <cpressey> Multiple transitions out of a state, but which one is taken, is chosen by the plater
17:51:59 <oklopol> "<cpressey> Correction: Proof that AFAs e..." <<< i don't get this at all, can you give me a link
17:52:25 <cpressey> oklopol: No link, I just made it up? It seems like a really easy proof
17:52:46 <oklopol> well to me it seems like nonsense
17:52:56 <oklopol> do you know what a universal state is
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17:53:07 <cpressey> All paths out of it have to accept, right?
17:53:23 <oklopol> wait you did a powerset thing?
17:53:24 <cpressey> And existential is, at least one path out has to accept
17:54:31 <oklopol> if you take the powerset then yeah actually i guess it's trivial, let me think about it
17:54:40 <oklopol> *i guess it might be trivial
17:55:18 <cpressey> Yeah, putting a powerset in there would make what I was saying explicit, I think
17:56:02 <oklopol> if your state is some set S, that means all those states must accept, nondeterministic steps work normally, just take the cartesian product of guesses, universal steps, well, what you said
17:56:19 <oklopol> the crucial thing is to realize what being in a set of states means
17:57:05 <cpressey> if not obvious, then at least.... non-problematic
17:57:23 <oklopol> so umm does that give us two-way AFA's...
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17:58:08 <oklopol> why would it, i don't even see how 2-way NFA is the same as 2-way DFA
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17:58:22 <oklopol> that doesn't really matter
17:58:25 <cpressey> Then a two-way automaton on the string maps to a one-way automaton on a tree
17:58:43 <cpressey> And there is work on AFAs on trees (and graphs) -- I've seen it
17:59:33 <oklopol> but one-way automata on trees don't translate to two-way automata on strings
18:00:14 <oklopol> well anyway, is 2-way NFA the same as 2-way DFA?!?
18:00:23 <oklopol> why don't i know something this simple
18:04:20 <AnMaster> <cpressey> That's a DJTM <-- DJTM standing for?
18:04:38 <oklopol> states are powersets + for all states, information about what happens if you go, from the cell where you are, left in that state, and we can just inductively carry this info with us
18:05:57 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: OK, next time I'll let *you* confuse AnMaster.
18:06:32 <oklopol> if the automaton goes left, for all states S in the powerstate, it does whatever it does when going left from states S, if one accepts it accepts, if it goes right it changes S as with the usual powerset construction, and for all states it checks what they do if going left, using the info about what they do when going left from the cell to the left
18:06:44 <oklopol> many details need to be filled, but i don't see why this wouldn't work
18:06:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh DJTM as in DJ TM?
18:07:23 <oklopol> for AFA, the automaton can start building a huge boolean function combining the results of going left
18:07:39 <oklopol> "if these two accept and this doesn't, then do this, if on the other hand..."
18:07:45 <cpressey> The state blowup is immense, of course, but irrelevant, of course
18:08:02 <oklopol> well it's only exponential still, because you just need one piece of info for each state in addition to the powerset!
18:08:50 <oklopol> so maybe 2-way AFA is actually stronger, i'll try to come up with a counterexample tomorrow
18:09:00 <oklopol> counterexample to it being just regulars
18:09:23 <oklopol> it can build any boolean function of going-left's, but the inputs are just states...
18:09:36 <oklopol> so actually i think by having another exponential blow-up, you can do it
18:11:07 <oklopol> i'll give this a bit of thought
18:12:26 <cpressey> I'm still thinking about how the C preprocessor might be Turing-complete...
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18:15:22 <Gregor-W> Didn't pikhq post a link to a Game of Life interpreter or something thereabouts in it?
18:15:29 <Gregor-W> Isn't that proof that it is, not just might be?
18:16:12 <cpressey> Gregor-W: yes, but the life playfield in that was finite.
18:16:55 <Gregor-W> Should try with something more fitting, like the lambda calculus.
18:17:59 <cpressey> I was thinking about how you could do a cyclic tag system... the hard part is extracting the tip of the string (or whatever you're using to represent the state)
18:18:28 <cpressey> The rest, namely checking what the tip is, and appending the response to the other end of the string, seems easy.
18:18:54 <cpressey> But, I don't really know, since I'm not a huge cpp jockey.
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18:19:25 <Gregor-W> In spite of being a string-rewriting language, I don't think CPP would be great for that ...
18:25:08 <pikhq> Pity there's no string indexing in there at all.
18:26:40 <oklopol> so 2AFA -> 2NFA: you have the usual powerset constr, and for each state s you store all the sets of states S (not containing s) such that there is an accepting run from s going left if there's an accepting run from all states in S. now on each move, go through states s, if s goes left then guess one of its S-sets to replace it, and repeat this until all states go right or you loop (you just hardcode all this), then when you go right
18:27:37 <cpressey> I like how you used the word "hardcode" in a proof
18:28:11 <cpressey> That puts me in a good mood as I go for lunch :)
18:29:16 <oklopol> yeah wanted to remind the reader we're not talking about an algorithm the AFA has to somehow implement
18:37:36 <Gregor-W> Sounds hardcore to me. ... bitches.
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19:00:37 <cpressey> And 2NFA -> NFA -> DFA, if I'm not mistaken. I can see "why" more clearly now, but I don't have a proof. The number of "paths back" is always bounded by a function of the size of the transition table. If you get into multiheaded things, the bound depends on the size of table *and* the size of input, so you get into LBA and P territory.
19:07:15 <cpressey> And if the number of "paths back" is bounded that way, you can always do the powerset thing to the states.
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19:12:32 <cpressey> "It can be shown that the Kolmogorov complexity of any string cannot be more than a few bytes larger than the length of the string itself." Interesting use of the word "byte"...
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19:18:14 <Gregor-W> Yeaaaah ... that should really be something more like "a small, fixed amount" .... but then again since it varies by your description language, bleh.
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19:27:44 <cpressey> There *has* to be a way to prove P < NP out of this :)
19:40:54 <oklopol> "<cpressey> And 2NFA -> NFA -> DFA, if I'm not mistaken." <<< i reduced directly to NFA
19:41:14 <oklopol> i don't see how to reduce to 2NFA
19:41:40 <cpressey> "<oklopol> so 2AFA -> 2NFA: you have [...]"
19:41:46 <oklopol> i mean, so that you somehow do a simpler reduction
19:42:12 <oklopol> NFA \subset 2NFA, but i definitely meant NFA
19:42:48 <cpressey> Really, NFA < 2NFA? Damn, my intuition was wrong then.
19:43:04 <oklopol> umm a two-way NFA can just never go left
19:43:54 <oklopol> i meant that NFA's are subset of 2NFA in the very concrete sense that for each NFA there's the exact same 2NFA
19:44:16 <cpressey> The structure is a subset. Yeah.
19:44:26 <cpressey> Well, "structure"... you know what I mean
19:44:29 <oklopol> AXX will always be stronger than NXX because you can just not use universals
19:46:45 <oklopol> "<cpressey> There *has* to be a way to prove P < NP out of this :)" <<< from what, kolmo?
19:46:59 <cpressey> oklopol: Yes! I'm not entirely serious though.
19:47:33 <oklopol> P < NP is serious business though, i hear
19:48:11 <cpressey> It's a million-dollar industry, at least.
19:48:22 <cpressey> Actually, that makes it sound like such small potatoes :)
19:49:52 <pikhq> Last I checked, new potatoes (which are small) were a sizable industry. :P
19:54:35 <cpressey> Certainly in NP (assuming a reasonable # of givens I suppose), but I don't see how you could show it NP-complete offhand.
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19:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I vaguely remember it from the Scientific American.
19:56:23 <cpressey> The wikipedia article on Sudoku is in the category "NP-complete problems", but mentions nothing about it on the page. Yay Wikipedia
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19:57:31 <Phantom_Hoover> "It's mildly misleading to say "Sudoku is NP-complete". There is an NP-complete problem related to Sudoku: given a partially completed grid, determine whether it has a solution. But this is a problem that faces the setter, rather than the solver. "
19:57:41 <cpressey> Yeah, I just found that page too.
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20:09:19 <oklopol> same thing with minesweeper
20:09:29 <oklopol> the actual game hasn't been proven np-complete
20:09:41 <oklopol> just whether a set of shown numbers is consistent
20:22:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Co-NP means that for a problem X, X is NP, doesn't it?
20:22:54 <cpressey> What does "?X" in "?X is NP" mean?
20:24:56 <coppro> it means your client sucks
20:25:09 <coppro> get a client that understands UTF-8
20:25:29 <cpressey> It does! I can read pikhq's Japanese stuff just fine! Well, mostly.
20:27:13 <cpressey> Exactly. Anyway, let's assume ?X means "complement of X". Then yes. But that doesn't mean NP = Co-NP.
20:27:21 <pikhq> coppro: If his client sucked it'd be multiple characters.
20:27:33 <coppro> then get a better font
20:27:37 <pikhq> cpressey: You need a font with the glyph.
20:27:37 <cpressey> Usually it's a box with 4 digits in it...
20:28:04 <pikhq> Fallback font not working, I guess?
20:29:41 <cpressey> Maybe Phantom_Hoover is not actually sending UTF-8, but something that your clients understand and can turn into ¬, but Pigeon can't?
20:30:31 <pikhq> Hrm. irssi *should* be just treating this as UTF-8.
20:32:10 <fizzie> Irssi's default settings have a fallback for invalid UTF-8, unless I misremember.
20:32:24 <fizzie> /set recode_fallback and so on.
20:32:38 <fizzie> Seems to be CP1252 here, possibly for the benefit of Windows people.
20:32:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It meants your IRC client sucks.
20:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> That was two consecutive "not"s followed by two consecutive sterling signs.
20:33:46 <fizzie> Anyway, XChat's default I think is also character set "IRC (latin/Unicode hybrid)"
20:33:58 <coppro> yeah, that is not UTF-8
20:34:07 <coppro> solution: get a client that uses UTF-8
20:34:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Send UTF-8.
20:34:56 <fizzie> I guess XChat's "hybrid" might mean "Use latin1 by default, except UTF-8 if the input text contains something that can't be represented as latin1", and both not and the sterling sign are in there.
20:35:29 <fizzie> You can toggle it to plain "UTF-8 (Unicode)" in the network setup screen thing.
20:35:34 <pikhq> So, XChat is maintaining the brain-damage that is CP1252?
20:35:43 <pikhq> fizzie: Is not Latin1.
20:36:01 <pikhq> fizzie: CP1252 is a superset of Latin1.
20:36:15 <fizzie> Yes, I know. But both those characters he sent are in latin1.
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20:40:11 <coppro> I think this wins the award for "worst code I've ever seen in ##C++", and that's saying somehting: http://pastebin.com/V3jWjXtg
20:40:39 <fizzie> That looked like 0xac 0xac 0xa3 0xa3 in my logs; that'd be either latin1 or the windowsy thing.
20:41:15 <Sgeo> Even I'm not that unlazy enough.
20:41:46 <fizzie> (XChat's network settings probably won't take effect before reconnecting with the edited configuration.)
20:41:50 <Sgeo> How... bought in do you have to be to "Work harder, not smarter" to even think of that
20:41:52 <cpressey> Wow, it's the superset construction applied to a C++ program!
20:42:12 <pikhq> coppro: That's... stunningly stupid.
20:42:58 <fizzie> That "one-case switch" pattern is also pretty nice.
20:42:59 <oklopol> "<cpressey> Does Co-NP = NP?" <<< if P = NP then yes, if P != NP then i don't know if that implies co-np and np are different as well
20:42:59 <pikhq> ARRAYS MAN, ARRAYS!
20:44:19 <pikhq> Kinda impressive how it doesn't have... Any abstraction at all.
20:44:29 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> Co-NP means that for a problem X, X is NP, doesn't it?" <<< yes it's just the set theoretic complements of sets in NP, although it's also characterized by tm's that have universal states (just universal ones, no existential ones)
20:44:56 <pikhq> Also: God, I feel the urge to write a similar program just so I stop crying.
20:44:58 <coppro> well, it's actually a C program
20:44:58 <fizzie> pikhq: On the other hand, it allows spreading your air craft carrier squares all over the map. You can't do that in inferior battleship implementations.
20:45:04 <coppro> I'm surprised he's still in ##C
20:45:17 <fizzie> Sorry, "air craft carier".
20:45:20 <coppro> I would have expected them to have kickbanned him by now
20:45:57 <pikhq> Hmm. Demands Curses.
20:46:35 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: how does it?
20:46:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely a problem and its complement can each be deduced from the other?
20:47:09 <oklopol> maybe, humankind just doesn't know how.
20:47:10 <coppro> man, this guy's an idiot
20:47:16 <coppro> I wish he was just a troll
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20:47:59 <fizzie> Hey, an appropriate interrobang.
20:48:15 <cpressey> And my IRC client rendered it correctly, too. Sweet!
20:48:37 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: a nondeterministic TM makes guesses, and accepts if one guess works; you can't solve the complement problem because you need to check that *not one* of the choices works
20:48:43 <oklopol> and nondeterminism doesn't let you do that
20:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> But surely you can solve X by solving X and inverting the answer?
20:49:42 <oklopol> sure, but that won't be an algorithm a NTM can run
20:49:54 <oklopol> you will have to call an NTM program from a TM
20:49:58 <oklopol> and then invert its answer
20:50:37 <oklopol> in fact P^NP is complementable for this reason (polynomial time with oracle that does nondeterministic polynomial queries in one step)
20:51:25 <coppro> Sgeo: he's smarter than you because he's in college.
20:51:31 <oklopol> or, you can call it from a nondeterministic program and then invert the answer
20:52:12 <oklopol> this may all be a bit confusing still, you should just read the formal definitions reeeally well.
20:54:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Compare: boolean satisfiability (is there an assignment of varibles that makes this statement true) to tautology (do *all* assignments of variables make this statement true)
20:54:47 <cpressey> sat is in NP, but taut is in co-NP
20:55:15 <oklopol> what was that an answer to?
20:56:25 <fizzie> There's also that other way to define NP: the decision problems for which you can verify the proof for a "yes" answer in polynomial time with a deterministic TM; and for co-NP, the same but verifiable proofs for the "no" answers. Though perhaps I shouldn't be trying to add to the confusion any more.
20:56:53 <oklopol> nothing wrong with adding to confusing
20:56:56 <oklopol> language L is in NP iff there is a nondeterministic turing machine that accepts exactly the words in L, and always runs in polynomial time. a nondeterministic turing machine is a turing machine that can have multiple next steps from each configuration, and it accepts iff there is one sequence of guesses that leads to acceptance
20:58:08 <cpressey> Complete guess: SAT with monotonic sentences (no NOT) is in P. Maybe even a greedy algorithm
20:59:04 <cpressey> Is monotonic the word? AND and OR, but no NOT
20:59:05 <oklopol> and what do you mean complete guess
20:59:22 <cpressey> I mean I have no proof, going entirely on intuition and similar sounding problems
20:59:27 <oklopol> oh okay monotonic is a good words
20:59:43 <oklopol> oh complete guess as in info from ass
20:59:51 <cpressey> "monotonic circuits" come up sometimes in circuit complexity
20:59:53 <Gregor-W> So anybody written an interpreter in CPP yet? :P
20:59:53 <oklopol> i thought complete as in np complete ...
21:01:13 <oklopol> assign all variables to true
21:01:26 <oklopol> you can prove by induction that this algorithm eventually finds the answer
21:01:51 <oklopol> you could call it a greedy algorithm
21:02:43 <oklopol> maybe every set of boolean functions is either trivial or np-complete
21:04:14 <oklopol> maybe that's trivial if you know your boolean algebras, what kinds of stuff can a set of functions generate if it doesn't generate all boolean functions
21:05:01 <oklopol> also what does trivial or NP-complete even mean
21:05:14 <oklopol> that there's a linear time algo?
21:06:38 <oklopol> if every 3-head NFA M can be replaced by a k-head DFA for some k that depends on M, then the nondeterministic context-sensitive languages are the same as deterministic context-sensitive languages
21:12:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, isn't NP-complete pretty well defined
21:16:41 <fizzie> 1. (4) fiddling, footling, lilliputian, little, niggling, piddling, piffling, petty, picayune, trivial -- ((informal) small and of little importance; "a fiddling sum of money"; "a footling gesture"; "our worries are lilliputian compared with those of countries that are at war"; "a little (or small) matter"; "a dispute over niggling details"; "limited to petty enterprises"; "piffling efforts"; "giving a police officer a free meal may be against the law, but it s
21:16:41 <fizzie> eems to be a picayune infraction")
21:19:03 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, "trivial or NP-complete" is only informal because "trivial" is.
21:19:26 <oklopol> in this case trivial couldn't really mean "I can't be bothered doing it"
21:19:36 <oklopol> because it would be the algorithm that does it
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21:30:26 * Sgeo holds a preemptive memorial for Phantom_Hoover
21:31:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I have better things to do, but they're not as immediately interesting.
21:32:21 <fizzie> oklopol: So "I can't be bothered doing an algorithm to do it" for trivial, then?
21:54:53 <fungot> CakeProphet: you don't really need more ram please donate! cool
21:55:57 <CakeProphet> though, fags don't really have feet. They're mostly for getting cancer and/or burning witches(?)
21:57:50 <oklopol> fizzie: something like that
21:59:52 <CakeProphet> vowels do not correspond to more possible words
22:00:28 <CakeProphet> most words begin with consonants, but only certain ones. Feel free to hack the source of simpleacro to add weighting. oerjan made a weighting algorithm but didn't produce a full list of weighted words
22:00:59 <pikhq> Quebecois Communists Wantonly Attack My Not-Zero'd Zabutons
22:01:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: When sitting in seiza (kneeling before a table), one sits upon a zabuton.
22:02:56 <pikhq> Pied Zen Geek Xmas Viewed Hong Kong
22:04:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, it's a 'sitting futon'.
22:04:20 <Phantom_Hoover> If I were doing any kind of intelligent mathematics in school this year I'd bring them up.
22:05:47 <CakeProphet> ...you guys know way too many obscure words.
22:06:22 <CakeProphet> you know I was thinking of taking the challenge of writing a poem-friendly programming language
22:06:23 <Sgeo> Vala can be so...
22:06:39 <Sgeo> Sometimes I'll learn something about it that's great, sometimes something that's horrible
22:06:58 <CakeProphet> you could try to give meaning to syllables, but that might constrain your poem. Basically I need to find an acceptable set of constraints for a given input, that would make writing poetry fun.
22:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, I made those set names up. *coughaskmewhattheyare*
22:07:05 <cpressey> Sgeo: Wondering if I should bother looking at it
22:07:54 <CakeProphet> I think basing instructions off of starting letter would be an acceptable constraint.
22:07:59 <cpressey> I rarely get past "looking at it" for most "alternative mainstream" languages
22:08:13 <CakeProphet> another possibility is to have a number of different selection mechanisms... that you can set with pragmas at the top of the poem.
22:08:40 <CakeProphet> so the constraint is dependent on the kind of poem you want to write. Could be syllable-based, rhyme-based, letter-based, word-length-based, etc
22:08:48 <fizzie> There's the good old Shakespeare for that.
22:08:50 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Tracking measure (syllables) would be appropriate, but hard
22:09:25 <cpressey> Or cheat by insisting it be notated
22:09:44 <CakeProphet> rhyme could be done via database. bug would be possible though, so any kind of interpreter should have good debuggin output. Like showing what rhymes with what, etc.
22:09:52 <CakeProphet> in case the database doesn't match something it technically should.
22:09:54 <Sgeo> Vala has no bounds checking
22:10:01 <Sgeo> erm, automatic bound checking, I guess
22:10:57 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Mora-based?
22:11:02 <Sgeo> frederik> Sgeo_: use an ArrayList
22:11:04 <fizzie> (Okay, so Shakespeare is play- and not poem-oriented.)
22:11:22 <cpressey> http://www.rhymezone.com/rhyme-help.html -- you could use this as a web service to find rhymes
22:11:43 <CakeProphet> yeah. I'd rather have an on-site database, but I have a feeling those are all proprietary/locked-away
22:12:08 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Morae are a basic unit of sound; a syllable is generally composed of one or two morae.
22:12:10 <CakeProphet> do dictionary databases have data on syllables? they should.
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22:12:30 <fizzie> There are freely available reasonably comprehensive English pronunciation dictionaries, you could base heuristics on those.
22:12:31 <CakeProphet> pikhq: aha. that could be interesting. Again, I need databases because I am surely not going to compile that information myself.
22:12:41 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Trivial in Japanese. :P
22:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not just fetch the IPA and match the last few phonemes?
22:15:02 <CakeProphet> fetch implies net dependence. I suppose you could compile with that information and then have it local for the program in question?
22:15:27 <fizzie> BEEP has about 250k English word in it.
22:15:40 <CakeProphet> I've noticed rhymezone is kind of subpar at finding rhymes. So I'd rather use a better service or do it myself via IPA
22:15:57 <fizzie> ("British English example pronounciation" dictionary, that is.)
22:16:06 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: for the words in question. the words in the poem are static information.
22:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you'd need the IPA for any words that would need rhyme-matching.
22:17:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: OED should have the IPA for all of English.
22:17:47 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: yes?
22:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> To what extent does the OED/whatever give information on stresses?
22:18:20 <fizzie> OED is commercial, though. You can find BEEP at http://svr-www.eng.cam.ac.uk/~ajr/wsjcam0/node8.html -- it's not exactly IPA, but phonemes anyway.
22:19:01 <fizzie> (I think there was some primary-stress markers in it too.)
22:19:30 <cpressey> but you can grep for "IPA: /.*/" and sometimes get the pronunciation
22:20:04 <fizzie> There's also cmudict: http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict
22:20:12 <fizzie> It has some stress info in it.
22:20:31 <cpressey> actually wiktionary seems passable based on some random anecdotal queries
22:20:55 <fizzie> 127k words in cmudict 0.6, maybe more in 0.7.
22:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but for rhyme matching I think we'll need to know where the stress falls.
22:21:51 <fizzie> The digits are stress-markers, ISTR.
22:22:30 * CakeProphet will need to go through this conversation in logs for when he actually goes about this project.
22:22:45 <CakeProphet> I write poems, so I am very much interested in writing poems that compute. I actually write poems in Python and Perl sometimes.
22:22:55 <fizzie> 0 = no stress, 1 = primary stress, 2 = secondary stress. I'm sure they have better descriptions of their data there too.
22:23:21 <cpressey> i guess you'd still need a heuristic if you wanted to extract syllable information for measure from that
22:23:48 <cpressey> shouldnt be a terribly complex one, though
22:24:09 <fizzie> I've seen some syllable-level metadata somewhere, but I don't remember where, and it probably wasn't a public source.
22:24:50 <fizzie> It also might've been for Finnish morphological analysis, which would be less than helpful.
22:25:01 <cpressey> (AW0 T) (R EY1 JH) (AH0 S) versus (AW0 T) (R EY1) (JH AH0 S)
22:25:31 <cpressey> For rhyming, the eager variant would probably be better anyway
22:25:50 <fizzie> The stress numbers were from CMU's description, but I think BEEP had something very similar.
22:26:11 <fizzie> CMU might be better documented; the phoneme set is a standard one etc.
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22:26:39 <fizzie> Or at least better documented on the website; the BEEP tarball has some docs too.
22:26:42 <cpressey> Outrageous, contagious. That's precisely what this phage is.
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22:30:51 <fizzie> There are also more or less simple rulesets for English hyphenation. They're not exactly exact, but could help in separating syllables.
22:32:02 <fizzie> Remember to build algorithms to rank the poems on how meaningful and moving they are; you'll put literary critics out of work.
22:32:28 <fizzie> Then they can do something useful with their lives.</burn>
22:32:29 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: haven't even considered that yet. Still working on the syntatical structures.
22:34:11 <coppro> hahaha gcc's having licensing problems
22:34:27 <coppro> they can't legally copy examples from source into documentation
22:38:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh. BEEP is British English, which I assume isn't your accent.
22:46:13 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
22:46:24 <aliseiphone> Bjorn stood in accusation against the masked blind man.
22:46:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:47:29 <Sgeo> errordomain IRCError { ALISE, SGEO, PHANTOM_HOOVER }
22:47:48 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> most words begin with consonants, but only certain ones. Feel free to hack the source of simpleacro to add weighting. oerjan made a weighting algorithm but didn't produce a full list of weighted words
22:48:30 <oerjan> btw it could be changed to use a Map instead of a list, if you have so many things to choose from that you want binary search
22:49:16 <oerjan> actually given the probabilistic nature, you'd probably want the tree to be balanced not by letters, but by probability
22:49:59 <oerjan> (so left and right subtrees have approx same probability rather than number of letters)
22:50:22 <oerjan> would probably be a bit long for an EgoBot hack though :D
22:52:25 <oerjan> 08:56:18 <oklopol> a DFA with two heads is already "trivially" stronger than one with just one head
22:52:28 <oerjan> 08:56:26 <oklopol> trivially if you know where to look
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22:53:01 <oerjan> well yeah that was what (^n)^n does
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22:55:08 <AnMaster> I wonder how hard it would be to add scroll wheel support to it?
22:55:26 <oerjan> <oklopol> multihead is always more powerful than nonmultihead, essentially
22:55:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, talking about monitor setup?
22:56:35 <oerjan> well for DFAs. for higher classes not so much (once you have logspace memory you can do pointers and all the seeking you want)
22:56:45 <oerjan> it can reduce time though.
22:58:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't an UTM have just one head?
22:58:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: this is a generalization
22:59:24 <oerjan> i recently read somewhere (perhaps the Godel's Lost Letter archive) that for NP, 2 tapes can simulate any higher number with linear overhead
23:01:52 <oerjan> (basically you use the power of the nondeterministic TM to _guess_ what the simulated TM will do, write the entire guessed history on one tape and then afterwards use the other tape to go through each simulated tape in turn, checking that the guess is consistent)
23:04:58 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
23:05:10 <Gregor-W> <cpressey> Outrageous, contagious. That's precisely what this phage is.
23:05:16 <Gregor-W> I give you three props for that.
23:05:44 <Gregor-W> This first prop is a lamp. The second prop is a stool, and the third prop is an umbrella.
23:07:04 <oerjan> not sure how much weaker extra heads are than extra tapes
23:07:35 <oerjan> hm or are they obviously weaker at all...
23:07:51 <oerjan> (strictly weaker, that is)
23:07:57 <Gregor-W> Infinite hotel rooms. They're not weaker.
23:08:41 <Gregor-W> I love using "infinite hotel rooms" as an argument :P
23:09:29 <oerjan> the amazing thing is that i think i got what you meant :D
23:09:43 <Gregor-W> I forget what the actual name of the relevant theory is :P
23:09:47 <Gregor-W> But hey! Infinite hotel rooms!
23:10:32 <oerjan> (for n tapes, you simulate them with n heads by interleaving the tapes in the single one)
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23:11:46 <oerjan> Gregor-W: well infinite hotel rooms is usually about set theory cardinals
23:12:46 <Gregor-W> Sure sure, but it's all infinities :P
23:13:45 <Slereah> Infinities have different properties, though
23:14:14 <oerjan> Gregor-W: also when i say weaker/stronger here, i mean within the same O() complexity class, so just placing all the tapes inside one is _not_ a proof - but the heads allow you to remove the extra overhead except for a constant n
23:15:08 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, there *aren't* any theorems about infinite hotels.
23:17:11 <Gregor-W> oerjan: Right, the complexity class is what breaks it, but it still proves it if we're talking about simulating a 2-tape on a 2-head, just not vice-versa.
23:17:23 <Gregor-W> oerjan: Since you can trivially show that it's just going to multiply the time by a constant 2.
23:18:01 <cpressey> oerjan: With NP you can DO MAGIC
23:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking at that Battleships code has turned sizeable parts of my brain into mush.
23:18:17 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: 's OK, you didn't need those parts anyway.
23:18:27 <Gregor-W> Sgeo: So where did that come from, I missed it X-P
23:18:36 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Can you paste it elsewhere? It isn't loading for me.
23:18:44 <Sgeo> Gregor-W, Phantom_Hoover
23:18:50 * cpressey tries to find a good rhyme for "infinite hotel rooms"
23:18:56 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: So where did that come from, I missed it X-P
23:19:10 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Infinite maids' brooms
23:19:52 <cpressey> A sound of startlement and such
23:20:06 <Gregor-W> ... not one used by humans, but OK.
23:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/V3jWjXtg doesn't work for you, aliseiphone?
23:21:10 <aliseiphone> oerjan: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=You_are_Reading_the_Name_of_this_Esolang&curid=2331&diff=18244&oldid=10210
23:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't really copy and paste directly, because that thing is probably 300K.
23:22:26 <cpressey> I'm so honoured the spammers chose an article on *my* language to deface.
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23:23:06 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: I saw the link, I'm just wondering where it came from.
23:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, Sgeo mentioned someone who was either a troll or an idiot on ##C++.
23:24:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you're the one who mentioned it
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23:24:39 <Gregor-W> http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CPDL4O3w3qyrngEQ2AUYTzIIBjvYkGk7we0 Why is this woman looking at a reversed computer screen with totally pointless language and technology names written all over it ...
23:24:46 <Sgeo> Oh, you mean to Gregor-W?
23:25:01 * Sgeo is slowly going insane
23:25:08 <oerjan> aliseiphone: i assume you have trouble editing yourself, but in case that's not why you're asking i should point out i am _not_ a wiki administrator, so i can do no more than an ordinary user
23:25:10 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: I pasted it originally, yes
23:25:30 <cpressey> Gregor-W: It's a diabolical mind-control thing. She's actually strapped in a chair...
23:25:31 <coppro> Gregor-W: Someone wanted help with it in ##c++
23:25:34 <Gregor-W> I just have to know what subhuman monster initiated this.
23:25:42 <Gregor-W> coppro: I assume he got kickbanned :P
23:26:08 <oerjan> aliseiphone: um someone else got their edit in before mine, even
23:26:13 <coppro> he wasn't even kbed from ##c, which is bizzarre
23:26:15 <Phantom_Hoover> We all had a go at him, and he sodded off after a while.
23:26:28 <coppro> ##c++ usually doesn't have ops around
23:26:53 <oerjan> the wiki doesn't report an edit conflict if you are trying to do the exact same edit as someone else...
23:27:08 <oerjan> (i guess that makes sense)
23:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> My money's still on "troll", or possibly "lying egomaniac".
23:27:27 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: It's a lot of effort just for trolling ...
23:27:53 <cpressey> My money is on "very much newbie programmer", maybe "newbie thinker".
23:28:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh it was you?
23:28:13 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, the code is all so similar that anyone who could actually program could have used an automatic generator.
23:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, I have a wgotten version which I could email, but I don't want to crash Firefox again.
23:29:15 <Gregor-W> ... oh my god ... the only loop in the whole thing is one for loop restricted to 64 iterations ...
23:30:01 <cpressey> money definitely on "new at using brain"
23:30:31 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: ah, i haven't read his msgs
23:30:45 <cpressey> still, they go together quite often, I find
23:30:47 <Gregor-W> cpressey: You mean "incapable of using brain"
23:31:11 <oerjan> Gregor-W: um is your nose talking about the wiki spam editing?
23:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, that is at least 80% of the code, with slightly different numbers.
23:34:54 <cpressey> I love the one-case-switch-as-if-without-else idiom.
23:35:09 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Yes. Not somebody who knows about the == operator :P
23:35:11 <oerjan> <cpressey> I did wonder once if you could make a game out of NTMs -- one player tries to choose transitions that will make the machine accept, the other tries to choose transitions that will make it reject
23:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, can I post the other thing it's almost entirely made of.
23:35:23 <oerjan> that would seem to fit better with an ATM actually...
23:35:31 <Gregor-W> OMG that's the best game idea ever.
23:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> While using arrays for strings, but not realising such.
23:35:51 <Gregor-W> Make it a card game, sell it for billions.
23:36:08 <oerjan> (ATMs are afaiu essentially the Minimax algorithm turned into a TM concept)
23:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Best part: he claimed to have a master's in CS and 3 years of C++ experience.
23:36:47 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: My mind. It is boggled.
23:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to print it out at some point and hang it on a wall.
23:37:47 <Gregor-W> CakeProphet: Pure, unadulterated fail.
23:38:18 <CakeProphet> is there a paste I can see of the rest of this code?
23:38:30 <Gregor-W> CakeProphet: http://pastebin.com/V3jWjXtg
23:38:31 <Sgeo> I now feel more comfortable with the idea of others seeing my code.
23:38:42 <Sgeo> Because no matter how bad it is, it is not as bad as that.
23:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite what he learned C++ from is one of those things I want to know, but will probably regret finding the answer.
23:40:04 <Sgeo> He claimed that his professor liked his style
23:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> And that he was the only person to get an A in his year.
23:40:48 <Gregor-W> He never claimed that the professor wasn't piss-drunk 24 hours a day, did he?
23:42:00 <oerjan> cpressey: or to put it differently, if an alternating turing machine is played as a game where one player does all the universal transitions and tries to make it reject, and the other player does all the existensial transitions and tries to make it accept, then perfect play gives exactly the same result as the usual ATM interpretation
23:42:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, once you've lied once, the cost of additional lies goes right down
23:42:40 <CakeProphet> nevermind. I've seen worse code in an /actual/ piece of software
23:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I saw some terrible code by my fellow Computing students, but that's incidental.
23:43:34 <CakeProphet> hmmm.... I'll need to dig around. It's thousands of lines. I want the best example of why it is bad code.
23:43:55 <CakeProphet> the main flaw it commits is the lack of abstraction. Rather than, you know, using functions... they decide instead to use copy and paste for everything.
23:44:00 <Gregor-W> CakeProphet: If it takes that much digging, then it's not as bad :P
23:44:12 <CakeProphet> Gregor-W: I mean, what it does is /functional/. but it's terrible design.
23:44:20 <Gregor-W> WHICH REMINDS ME hey guys where's my lambda calculus in CPP?
23:44:41 <Gregor-W> Anything Turing-complete in CPP.
23:44:46 <cpressey> I've heard stories of similarly bad code, but never seen it. Like, where the author used a loop every time he accessed an element of an array -- even if it was a single element.
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23:45:08 <cpressey> And then the planes shall land with supplies!
23:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Somehow it took some people in my class months to write an input validation program.
23:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that class in general was so idiotic I'm glad I dropped it.
23:46:08 <CakeProphet> yeah my programming class peers have been... dismal at programming
23:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> THEY HAD FIREFOX AND SAFARI INSTALLED, BUT WHICH ONE WERE WE TOLD TO USE?
23:46:41 <CakeProphet> so I'm not complaining. I encourage them to be stupidity so I can show them how it's done.
23:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I.e. it would tell you if you piped /dev/random into <script> tags.
23:48:22 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> I want to print it out at some point and hang it on a wall. <--- where is it from? daily wtf?
23:50:22 <oerjan> maybe he is using simplicity in the algebraic sense :D
23:51:04 <oerjan> (THIS CODE IS ISOMORPHIC TO THE MONSTER GROUP)
23:51:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Somehow he knew that the compiled code was as efficient whether he used a 10 element array or 10 variables.
23:52:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it seems possible to put a non-continuous ship on there
23:52:25 <AnMaster> since it asks for all positions
23:53:35 <Gregor-W> Is ##c++ logged? This needs to be maintained for infamy sake :P
23:53:49 <AnMaster> printf("Player 2 is the winner!!!\nType somthing to quit: ");
23:55:52 <Gregor-W> The truth is, when you play Battleship using this software, no one wins.
23:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> When has Player 1 ever one when you've played Battleships?
23:57:02 <oerjan> <cpressey> The wikipedia article on Sudoku is in the category "NP-complete problems", but mentions nothing about it on the page. Yay Wikipedia
23:57:05 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Your compiler would never forgive you.
23:57:13 <oerjan> hm i'm pretty sure i edited the NP part of that once
23:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that program is canonical C in its entirety, AFAIK.
23:59:08 <oerjan> cpressey: oh they've split things out into a Mathematics of Sudoku article
00:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I've got a good chunk of the conversation, although from around halfway in.
00:02:48 <oerjan> <cpressey> Does Co-NP = NP?
00:03:09 <oerjan> that's an unsolved problem, it's believed to be false.
00:03:24 <Gregor-W> Lawl, Madk marked Schrodilang while on his Madkap adventures of finding pages to delete :P
00:03:39 <cpressey> oerjan: Indeed, and seems somewhat more interesting than P?=NP, at least to me right now
00:04:00 <oerjan> cpressey: well P=NP would imply NP=co-NP
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00:04:30 <Gregor-W> Sure, but everybody knows that P!=NP. The argument there is simple: A lot of very smart people have been trying to prove that P=NP and have gotten nowhere ;)
00:04:33 <oerjan> also if NP=co-NP then NP is so called _low_ for itself (you can answer NP questions freely inside an NP computation)
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00:05:29 <oerjan> and then all that oracle hierarchy stuff NP^NP^NP^... collapses
00:06:00 <oerjan> just like it did for NL when NL = co-NL was proved
00:06:45 <oerjan> nondeterministic logarithmic space
00:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I have just realised that checkShips() doesn't do what I thought it did.
00:08:14 <oerjan> L \subset NL \subset P \subset NP \subset PSPACE is a famous sequence of inequalities. with the exception of L, NL != PSPACE none of those are proved to be different
00:08:21 <cpressey> oerjan: I have some ideas about co-NP, but they involve algorithmic information theory, which is somewhere I should probably not be treading.
00:10:09 <cpressey> oerjan: If we could prove P < Co-NP, we prove P < NP, don't we?
00:10:43 <oerjan> P = Co-P and Co- respects inclusion
00:13:55 <cpressey> I don't stand a icecube's chance in hell of actually proving this, but I might as well give it a go, just to understand more about it. It's enlightening to see a conjecture crash on the rocks sometimes.
00:14:27 <CakeProphet> you know I don't think an icecube could prove much of anything..
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00:14:55 <cpressey> It ... proved itself useful in keeping my drink cool?
00:16:45 <oerjan> icecube proves second law of thermodynamics
00:17:23 <oerjan> in a tragic heroic manner
00:19:46 <oerjan> <cpressey> Complete guess: SAT with monotonic sentences (no NOT) is in P. Maybe even a greedy algorithm
00:20:14 <oerjan> if you set all variables to true, then it has to be true iff there is any satisfying answer at all
00:20:40 <Sgeo> I still don't know why the bug manifested itself worse given some code and not as bad other code, but it seems to be completely squashed
00:20:58 <oerjan> also, monotonic circuit evaluation is P-complete
00:21:44 <oerjan> set all variables to false
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00:22:44 <cpressey> x AND y is not a tautology, but x AND x is
00:22:54 <oerjan> assuming you actually _have_ any variables
00:23:04 <oerjan> it most certainly is not :D
00:23:41 <oerjan> the constant true is the only monotonic tautology
00:24:21 <cpressey> I was getting there, slowly :)
00:24:47 <oerjan> i recall a theorem related to the clones of post's lattice: basically satisfiability is in P unless the clone includes the implication function, in which case it's NP-complete
00:24:50 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I'm compiling Battleships. If I die, tell someone.
00:24:56 <cpressey> Clearly, its paucity of tautologies means that monotonic logic is superior.
00:25:39 <oerjan> oh not implication, but non-implication
00:26:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice#Applications
00:27:29 <oerjan> presumably tautology is co-NP-complete iff it contains the dual of that function
00:27:48 <Slereah> He invented the Turing machine :o
00:28:09 <cpressey> And then went on to found his cold cereal empire
00:28:44 <oerjan> cpressey: i assume that's an american-only pun
00:29:21 <cpressey> oerjan: probably. http://www.thethriftymama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/post-raisin.jpg
00:30:06 <oerjan> non-implication is A and (not B), so the dual is A or (not B), hm that's just implication reversed
00:30:08 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: HELLO? HELLO? ARE YOU STILL THERE?
00:30:47 <cpressey> Some days I love this channel.
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00:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Note that all ships are on (1,1) and player 1's first hit takes out all of player 2's ships. Yet player 2 wins.
00:32:35 <oerjan> a famous theorem is that _intuitionistic_ implication has PSPACE-complete satisfiability
00:32:43 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Excuse me, I have to go sodomize myself with a rake first.
00:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, you need to s/conio.h/termios.h/ and s/getche/getchar/
00:35:59 <oerjan> <oklopol> maybe every set of boolean functions is either trivial or np-complete
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00:48:08 <Gregor-W> typeof(document.createElement("object")) == "function"; typeof(document.createElement("function")) == "object";
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01:18:22 <Gregor-W> Attention anyone who hasn't yet: Vote in the poll in the /topic. kthx :P
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01:37:49 <Sgeo> Gameplay now differs between DEBUG and RELEASE
01:48:57 <coppro> what changelog is this?
01:49:28 <coppro> hmm... more people should vote for the last option, then we should do it anyways
01:50:52 <Sgeo> coppro, it's my project
01:51:05 <Sgeo> There is a reason for it, though
01:51:19 <Sgeo> The change made to Release makes it difficult to repeatedly play the same puzzle
01:51:28 <Sgeo> So I decided that it made sense to omit it from Debug
01:53:32 <coppro> I guess that makes sense
01:53:39 <coppro> although you might provide another means
01:53:51 * coppro knows a game where -DCHEATS does all sorts of fun stuff
01:54:27 <Sgeo> DEBUG partially means cheats at this point
01:54:39 <Sgeo> Mostly, actually
01:54:52 <coppro> things like the ability to edit any puzzle, warp, etc.
01:54:55 <Sgeo> Oh, and occasional verbose output into chat
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03:52:30 <Sgeo> Well, that's headache inducing
03:53:21 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/1064906
03:57:00 * Sgeo makes it a decimal parse
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05:24:57 <EgoBot> haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; main = do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (replicateM len $ pick ['A'..'Z'])} where pick a = randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!)
05:26:35 <pikhq> Xanthine Boards For Only Jocular Machinists Have Xenocided Dogs
05:28:00 <Sgeo> Ok, it's been too long since I've read Station V3
05:28:05 <Sgeo> There's an entire new arc
05:30:17 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; main = do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (replicateM len $ pick =<< pick ["AEIOU","BCDFGHIJKLMNPQRSTVWXZ"])} where pick a = randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!)
05:31:28 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; main = do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (replicateM len $ pick =<< pick ["AEIOU","BCDFGHIJKLMNPQRSTVWXZ"])} where pick a = randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!)
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06:03:05 <CakeProphet> vowels don't really contribute to easier acronyms.
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06:56:28 <Gregor> Yeah ... that's "humor"
07:01:33 <CakeProphet> you die. I kill you. the last sound you make is the release of your bowels.
07:01:34 <sftp> sftp == secure file transfer protocol
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09:18:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I think if you type "lemon" as a target into that battleships game it counts as a hit.
09:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, this is all moot, since Player 2 must always win.
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09:28:55 <fizzie> Hm. If you type "lemon" into scanf("%d", &target), it'll leave the whole lemon in the input stream (and not modify target at all); I guess it depends on getche whether it'll remove those characters from the stream later or not. If not, all future scanf's in the loop will do nothing much, since the lemon will still be there.
09:31:12 <fizzie> In any case target won't get modified unless you put some digits in, so I don't see why it'd necessarily count as a hit. Not that I've looked at the madness very closely.
09:32:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I think that it would bomb the same square as you did previously.
09:33:03 <fizzie> Yes, but is that a hit? Anyway, if you start with lemon, target'll be 0.
09:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> So I assume that the reason for the lemon thing was that the lemon blocks up stdin, meaning that you repeatedly bomb the same square, and he didn't check if you had hit a square before
09:34:34 <fizzie> Yes, I guess you can easily keep getting hits if you just bomb the same place over and over again.
09:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't partition the two boards *at all*, so player 1 can hit their own ships.
09:37:27 <fizzie> I think they're separate; player one's positions are in [shipname]p[idx], player two's (which the hit-test is against) are [shipname]p[idx]two always? Though it seems to only ask and initialize player one's ships.
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09:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it does read for player 2's ships, though their initialisation is questionable.
09:38:41 <fizzie> Oh, okay, in checkShips.
09:38:48 <fizzie> It was there in the middle, I had missed it.
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11:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "Oh, look, here's a clip on the iPlayer. BUT I'M NOT GOING TO LET YOU PRESS THE PLAY BUTTON!"
11:34:55 <fizzie> I've had some Flash clicking problems lately; the weirdest thing is that clicking seems to work if I right-click the Flash player context menu open, keep the right button down, and then left-click whatever it was I actually wanted to click.
11:35:13 <fizzie> Or just plain old attack the left button with ferocity, that also sometimes helps.
11:36:13 <fizzie> Sorry, I think the left-right-workaround more accurately was "open context menu; keep right button pressed; left-click once outside the context menu to dismiss it; left-click the original target; release right mouse button".
11:36:21 <fizzie> It makes no sense, but sense is not what it makes.
11:40:37 <fizzie> What, it actually did something? I was half-certain it was something unique to my somehow messed-up Flash.
11:42:04 <fizzie> Well, the same. But actually I think my wife's PPC OS X laptop's Flash has had the same thing, albeit not at constantly.
11:42:21 <fizzie> Also the 64-bit Ubuntu, Flash supposedly from APT here at work has no problems clicking anything.
11:42:29 <Quadrescence> http://media.glennbeck.com/app/getfile.php?filename=../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../etc/passwd%00
11:42:50 <fizzie> This is karmic instead of the lucid I have at home, though.
11:46:37 <fizzie> On the other hand, left-clicking, that's not such a critical feature; only those hackery sort of power users do that. It's understandable that it might not work completely right everywhere.
11:50:02 * Phantom_Hoover wishes he'd taken that BBC Micro his friend offered him.
11:50:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I could break into his house while he's out of the country...
11:52:40 <fizzie> Yes, and set fire to it! To, uh.. I'unno. To make him pay for you not taking it earlier?
11:52:53 <fizzie> The first "it" referring to the house, of course.
11:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I know which bit of Edinburgh he lives in and that he lives above a Chinese restaurant, which narrows it down a bit.
11:54:07 <fizzie> You need to just start breaking into houses; you'll hit the right one eventually.
11:54:21 <fizzie> Most probably won't have a BBC Micro in them, that'll also help.
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12:04:02 <Ilari> Quadrescence: Directory transversal?
12:04:23 <Quadrescence> http://media.glennbeck.com/app/getfile.php?filename=../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../var/www/glennbeck/htdocs/bitrix/php_interface/dbconn.php%00
12:05:19 <fizzie> That's such an age-old problem, is nice that people still keep doing it.
12:08:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Nice to know that Glenn Beck can afford competent web staff.
12:11:36 * Phantom_Hoover notes that the BBC nearly made a programme called "syntax era".
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12:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> That's programme in the sense of "TV", in case that isn't clear.
12:34:56 <AnMaster> Quadrescence, except that one doesn't work
12:35:04 <AnMaster> "<b>Warning</b>: fclose(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in <b>/var/www/glennbeck/htdocs/app/getfile.php</b> on line <b>75</b><br />" is all you get
12:37:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, maybe someone found putfile.php and broke it? ;)
12:38:07 <AnMaster> oh that %00 didn't copy properly
12:39:37 <AnMaster> anyway, adding %00 at the end of course solved it
12:39:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, right wing, I doubt he trusts open source then either?
12:40:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, mysql used to be developed by a Swedish company iirc
12:42:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, yeah, so it's a triumphant example of American businesses conquering the Swedish ones.
12:42:47 <AnMaster> I assume someone already checked if one of those database passwords work for ssh login as well. I'm not going to do that. Might be going a bit too far.
12:46:21 <AnMaster> Quadrescence, only if trying to hack ssh with it. I don't think just looking at various files readable by the web server is going too far :P
12:47:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, now we know Glenn Beck's favourite colour of jello.
12:47:51 <AnMaster> sshd_config seems to be either in some unusual location, not installed, or not readable to the web server. ssh_config however is interesting, unless it is the default RHEL4 one, I don't have any red hat distro handy so can't compare
12:48:17 <AnMaster> hm /usr/sbin/sshd is definitely there
12:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> /etc/shadow was inaccessible, at which point I gave up.
12:49:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well you can still get /etc/passwd
12:50:32 <AnMaster> what does the php function trim() do?
12:51:21 <fizzie> Removes whitespace from both ends of a string.
12:51:48 <AnMaster> a pity there seems to be no way to get a directory listing
12:51:48 <fizzie> Okay, so not necessarily just whitespace; you can give it the character set to remove.
12:51:57 <AnMaster> well this is called with just a string it seems
12:52:27 <AnMaster> so I guess he only likes jello on his development box. There is one good thing here at least: He isn't developing directly on the production system
12:52:33 <fizzie> Okay, then it's the default set, which is whitespacey. (Apparently -- looked it up -- spaces, tabs, newlines, carriage returns, nul bytes and vertical tabs.)
12:53:52 <AnMaster> vertical tab, my favourite control character
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13:30:39 <fizzie> Technically speaking it should have approximately the same effect on the cursor as enough line feeds to get to next vertical tab stop, cf. horizontal tab and an amount of spaces.
13:32:33 <fizzie> Or in other words: "A format effector which advances the active position to the same character position on the next pre-determined line." (Whereas newline has the same description sans the word "pre-determined".)
13:32:57 <fizzie> In this xterm it seems to advance to next line without moving to the beginning of the line, while a linefeed would nowadays.
13:33:12 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ echo -e 'foo\nbar\vbaz'
13:34:47 <fizzie> Many of the ASCII control codes are not so very useful nowadays. When did you last use the "negative acknowledge" control code, for example?
13:35:22 <fizzie> (There's a nice listing in http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/c0.html of them.)
13:39:46 <Ilari> Pretty much only used ones are NUL, HT, LF, CR and ESC.
13:44:16 <fizzie> There's DC3/DC1 for flow-control purposes, and they've co-opted some for shell job control, like end-of-text (ctrl-c) that is still sort-of related in-theory a-bit. Oh, and end-of-transmission to send an EOF in.
13:45:25 <fizzie> In fortuitous circumstances you can also sometimes use BEL to annoy people.-
13:49:05 <fizzie> It's also used in usenet for spoiler-protection.
13:49:39 <fizzie> I've seen even graphical newsreaders handle it properly on that context.
13:49:51 <fizzie> Not sure about Google's webterface.
13:50:19 <fizzie> In sources I guess the author just wants all functions to start on a separate page.
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14:22:06 <AnMaster> the OpenGenera docs uses IP-TCP instead of the (nowdays?) more common TCP/IP in several places. However it does use TCP/IP in a few places as well..
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14:37:16 <derdon> I'm just reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge#Befunge-93_instruction_list
14:37:49 <derdon> is there an official way to escape double quotes in string mode? what if I want to push one or more double quotes to the stack?
14:45:14 <fizzie> If you want 'foo"""bar' on the stack, you could do something like: "foo#"1-::"bar" -- double quote character being '#'-1, after all.
14:45:51 <fizzie> If you're doing Funge-98, you could "foo"'""bar" instead. Some people have done ' in supposedly Befunge-93 interpreters as an extension, too.
15:09:17 <AnMaster> stuff not following either standard is really annoying since it is impossible to know if any program expecting either of the versions will work
15:11:06 <fizzie> Since 93 doesn't really say what to do with undefined ops, it's reasonably safe to add new ones and still expect 93-compliant programs to work.
15:11:29 <fizzie> Can't safely use those in intended-to-be-portable code, of course, but that's another thing.
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16:06:34 <oerjan> * Phantom_Hoover notes that the BBC nearly made a programme called "syntax era".
16:06:42 <oerjan> looks more like a spelling era to me.
16:08:32 <oerjan> you and your contorted yoga positions
16:08:41 <oklopol> did i mention i think i solved my first open problem
16:09:14 <oklopol> it was sort of trivial so i sent the prof email so he can point out my error :D
16:10:12 <oklopol> "if a 2-directional AFA can go outside the string, to north and south, to a blank space, do we still get the regular languages"
16:10:54 <oklopol> my answer is "trivially not"
16:10:55 <oerjan> um does this mean if it cannot, you _do_ get regular ones?
16:11:29 <oerjan> um north and south? is this some weird 2-dimensional motion?
16:11:51 <oklopol> the original question is about picture languages
16:12:04 <oklopol> "does it help to be able to go outside the pic"
16:13:04 <oerjan> that does sound weird that it should make a difference
16:13:25 <oerjan> can you go as far from the string as you want, or just one space?
16:13:26 <oklopol> just hover on top of the string and you can simulate a two-headed NFA
16:14:05 <oklopol> guess what the cells to your bottomright and bottomleft have, check this, and move accordingly
16:14:30 <oklopol> if head on the right goes left, you go bottom-left etc
16:14:40 <oklopol> have to have some bookkeeping for even distances between heads
16:15:20 <oerjan> i still don't see this. how do you keep track of two heads simultaneously?
16:20:46 <derdon> befunge is funny: "Integer division: Pop a and b, then push b/a, rounded down. If a is zero, ask the user what result they want."
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16:29:00 <oklopol> what's the name of the game?
16:29:15 <cpressey> oklopol: Are you listening to ABBA again? Bad oklopol!
16:29:38 <oklopol> abba is the perfect band for formal language theorists tho
16:29:49 <cpressey> And it's like the first thing that popped into my head when I read that
16:29:57 <cpressey> Because my parents are ABBA fans
16:30:01 <oerjan> well for game theorists too. the winner takes it all.
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16:59:58 <cpressey> "most strings are complex in the sense that they cannot be significantly compressed: K(s) is not much smaller than | s | , the length of s in bits" -- wikipedia
17:00:17 <cpressey> K(s) being the Kolmogorov complexity function
17:00:43 <cpressey> anyone know: Is this true, and if so, where I can find a reference?
17:01:21 <pikhq> I'm certain it's true, I don't have a citation handy.
17:01:24 <cpressey> And if there is a precise notion of "most"
17:03:05 <oerjan> cpressey: it's a trivial application of the pigeonhole principle
17:03:31 <oerjan> you cannot compress most strings because there aren't enough smaller strings to compress them into
17:03:50 <cpressey> oerjan: OK -- I can easily see that for "there exists an uncompressible string" -- I guess it extends to a collection of string
17:04:23 <oerjan> well you know there are 2^n strings of length n, at _most_ half of them can be compressed at all
17:05:05 <oerjan> 2^n-1 strings of length < n
17:05:27 <oerjan> and 2^(n-1)-1 strings of length < n-1
17:05:38 <oerjan> that gives about half, maximum, i think
17:06:03 <oerjan> if you compress by at least k bits, you can only do about 1/2^k of the strings
17:06:07 <cpressey> Everything you are saying makes sense. Actually, I'm sure I've seen it before, now, in another context.
17:08:47 <cpressey> So, define sumK(L) to be the sum of K(s) for every string s in the language L. Then sumK((0|1)^n) = O(2^n)?
17:10:15 <cpressey> Describing the language in English: L = {all strings of 0's and 1's of any length up to and including n} Then sumK(L) = O(2^n)?
17:12:01 <cpressey> I think so, but it would take me a while to draw it all out
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17:19:43 <oerjan> O(2^n * log n), perhaps
17:22:21 <oerjan> (you need to actually store the strings, not just count them :D)
17:22:57 <cpressey> I was actually hoping for >= O(2^n), and that works. But now I think I see why it doesn't even matter.
17:23:29 <cpressey> I know, abuse of O() there. I believe it's o() for lower bound?
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17:24:26 <cpressey> oh right, i was confusing omega with theta
17:24:31 <oerjan> o() is like O() but stricter, ratio must approach 0 rather than being bounded by a constant
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17:29:08 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Compress all possible strings of length n or less, basically.
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17:31:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Er, I mean "compress them all as far as possible, even if that means 0% compression for some of them, which it does".
17:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It means -% compression if anything is compressed at all
17:32:59 <cpressey> Well, I was looking for a lower bound, so I was happy to ignore expansion
17:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> By expansion do you mean making a few strings much larger?
17:36:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, somewhat larger, yes. You should never need to make a string much larger.
17:37:10 <cpressey> I assumed you meant expansion by "-% compression".
17:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> But you would need some kind of definition of "useful" for that.
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17:43:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: This is all pretty pure theory -- no usefulness express or implied :)
17:44:01 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, but then how do you decide which strings to expand or compress?
17:44:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Try compressing them all. Any ones you can't compress, leave be.
17:45:31 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: By a constant amount, only, which could be ignored even if I wasn't looking for a lower bound.
17:45:48 <cpressey> I'm not sure what your concern is
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17:46:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, are you trying for the biggest average compression?
17:48:10 <cpressey> No. I have a set of all possible strings of length n or less. I want to compress them all and stick them on a disk (say), and I want to know the order of how much space that'll take. According to oerjan, it's omega(2^n * n). I'm happy just knowing it's omega(2^n).
17:48:43 <cpressey> Well, I'm not happy, exactly, but yeah.
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17:53:13 <cpressey> It's kind of a rabbit hole, because "set of all possible strings of length <= n" is sort of a theoretical worst case. Hey, actually, if you knew the set contains all possible strings, you could compress the whole thing very well -- just write a program to generate them!
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18:09:57 <cpressey> http://www.devtopics.com/category/languages-obscure/
18:10:03 <cpressey> Apparently Haskell is "obscure".
18:10:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think that's realistic, though, since I have no idea how a 6502 works.
18:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I think by "obscure" he means "script kiddies haven't heard of them".
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18:13:07 <cpressey> 6502 is not a particularly complex processor, so it's a reasonable project.
18:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Cyclone programming language is a safe dialect of C."
18:14:30 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: How about instead of writing a processor emulator, you make an existing processor-emulator (JSMIPS) better? :P
18:15:32 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It works by adding semantics to C to allow for static and runtime memory safety.
18:15:49 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: the wikipedia page gives an overview. Pointer arith is restricted, importantly.
18:15:56 <pikhq> Most obviously, it adds multiple types of pointers
18:17:28 <Gregor-W> I'll bet it would be really difficult to write an interpreter with a garbage collector in Cyclone :P
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18:18:15 <cpressey> Cyclone appears to provide GC itself
18:18:53 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Ahhhhh well that makes sense then, I guess the real question should have been how it could be safe without GC, but I guess the answer is it has GC :P
18:19:10 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: But JS is lurrrrrrvely!
18:19:28 <cpressey> Hmh? It could be safe without GC
18:19:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, I believe I mentioned the cause of the trauma yesterday.
18:19:54 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: JSMIPS probably doesn't work on IE5 :P
18:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It was more being asked to write the same program about 5 times. And then test it thoroughly.
18:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> The point was to check that an integer was within certain bounds, and sometimes whether you were in jail.
18:22:05 <pikhq> cpressey: Yes, that'd require static checking of all allocations.
18:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> When I pointed out that if you were in jail you'd be unlikely to answer honestly, no-one listened.
18:22:52 <cpressey> pikhq: It makes no claims of being *statically* safe
18:23:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Yes; hence the GC.
18:28:07 <cpressey> How does GC make it safe while lack of GC would make it not safe?
18:29:28 <Gregor-W> cpressey: I pass a pointer into a complex maze of functions, one of which frees it. Now I use that pointer.
18:30:03 <Gregor-W> I can't free it. If I have references to it, it won't screw up.
18:30:19 <pikhq> It also does region analysis.
18:30:21 <Gregor-W> It does? Well that's just stupid.
18:32:28 <cpressey> I guess how I see it is, it's not GC that makes that safe, it's lack-of-dangerous-free. Whether you reclaim the memory or not is moot. (Useful in practice, sure, but moot for safety, because you will *always* be able to run out of memory at some point.)
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18:39:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, moreover, I don't actually know what MIPS is.
18:41:17 <fizzie> It's a nice, clean, simple RISC.
18:41:33 <fizzie> Many SGI boxes run on MIPSy things.
18:41:47 <fizzie> (Also many other things do.)
18:42:24 <fizzie> Possibly (maybe even probably), but then it wouldn't run in your browser.
18:42:37 <fizzie> Having Vim in a browser is something I wholeheartedly support.
18:43:20 <fizzie> Also there are existing MIPS emulators in non-JavaScripty scenarios, so it wouldn't have such novelty value.
18:44:10 <fizzie> (At least SPIM, which was used on our MIPS assembly programming course, but I'd hope there's something more serious too.)
18:45:45 <fizzie> Oh, right, qemu does MIPS too.
18:46:05 <fizzie> Which, the architecture or the emulators?
18:46:30 <fizzie> I don't think SPIM is very fast at all, it's designed for educational purposes.
18:49:56 <fizzie> Ohhh. Well, I'll let Gregor-W answer that one; I haven't really played with it.
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18:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, what clock speed does JSMIPS run at, on modern hardware?
18:51:26 <fizzie> It might depend on what you're doing, anyway.
18:55:29 <fizzie> Heh, nice 6502 trivia bit in Wikipedia: "The 6502 was introduced at $25 at the Wescon show in September 1975. The company had an off-floor suite with a big jar full of the chips. However with this early run they only had a handful of working ones. To give the appearance of larger quantities, the bottom of the jar was stuffed with defective chips, and only the ones at the top of the jar worked.[3] At the same show the 6800 and Intel 8080 were selling for $179.[4
18:55:30 <fizzie> ] At first many people thought the new chip's price was a hoax or a mistake, but while the show was still ongoing both Motorola and Intel had dropped their chips to $79.[5] These price reductions legitimized the 6502, which started selling by the hundreds.[3]"
19:01:13 <pikhq> He's busy being Norwegian.
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19:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, that does it! I am definitely buying "Conquering Norway for Dummies".
19:05:19 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:05:39 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:10:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Better than "Conquering Russia".
19:15:01 <pikhq> Of course it does.
19:15:01 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:17:12 -!- cal153 has joined.
19:22:58 <nooga> so the JSMIPS actually reads ELF compiled for some MIPS unit and runs them in a browser?
19:24:05 -!- augur has joined.
19:26:21 <fizzie> I don't think it *quite* does; there are some (very small) GCC patches you need to apply before you have a cross-compiler that can produce JSMIPS binaries.
19:27:15 <nooga> a friend of mine, quite good hardware hacker btw, said 'WTFIDONTEVENWTFWTF' when he saw our wiki and Greg's creations
19:28:12 <fizzie> I think it's still an ELF system, there was just a tiny bit of trickery.
19:28:46 <fizzie> At least the binutils patches seem to mostly just add mips*-*-jsmips* into the mips*-*-elf* line of the config script.
19:28:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:29:38 * Sgeo coughs on nooga
19:34:18 <oklopol> fizzie: copypaste the following on the channel w/o quotes please ":d:D:D:D:Dd:Ddddd:-D:DDDDD"
19:35:13 <cpressey> Here I thought it was something that would make EgoBot freak out
19:35:42 <fizzie> It looks as if you surprised me during a tooth-brush experience.
19:35:47 <cpressey> My client certainly thinks :D is a smile, it translated it into a little yellow head smiling its face off
19:40:42 <nooga> btw. i'm implementing modified SADOL as an OS for plain 8088 computer that we've build from spare ICs and some wires
19:41:20 <nooga> since it can talk via xmodem with the internet... it's getting more and more interesting
19:43:49 * Phantom_Hoover has just noticed that Eminem seems to have an ego to rival Wolfram's.
19:52:29 <nooga> "yo yo check out my homie wolfram calculating the mic, while i'm stealing your bike"
20:00:43 <nooga> but wolfra is calculating
20:01:31 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
20:01:44 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: I don't have a canonical "clock speed"
20:02:03 <Gregor-W> It's fast enough to run vim on Chrome at full-speed and pretty OK on Firefox.
20:02:34 <Gregor-W> Also it doesn't have every instruction take the same amount of time, it's not that accurate an emulator (it's just an ISA emulator)
20:03:02 <Gregor-W> And some instructions are slow for really stupid reasons, e.g. addition is slower than bitwise math because I don't have integers in JavaScript.
20:03:40 <pikhq> And so... You *implemented* integer arithmetic. Wows.
20:04:25 <Gregor-W> http://codu.org/projects/jsmips/hg/index.cgi/file/e87fc75afcb6/nomath.js <-- in the best-named file EVER.
20:06:20 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
20:06:52 <nooga> while i'm making the world Turing complete, my CAs are boxing the beat yo
20:07:02 <nooga> prepare for your bitter defeat
20:07:11 <nooga> i suck at freestyle
20:13:01 -!- coppro has joined.
20:13:53 <nooga> also I suck at English
20:16:53 -!- tombom has joined.
20:27:20 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it a bad idea to have an emulator that emulates the processor to the pin level?
20:33:12 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: For some applications you'd want that, I think
20:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I decided that it's the closest thing I'm going to get to a home-made computer, given my laziness.
20:37:34 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:43:22 <nooga> making own computer is suprisingly easy
20:43:42 <nooga> just read proc's datasheet, assemble and enjoy
20:44:56 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw
20:45:02 <cpressey> Unless you like etching PCBs or doing something else creative
20:55:22 <Gregor-P> Phantom_Hoover: Everywhere, they're the fundamental math primitives.
20:59:15 <Gregor-P> It handles all integer math, you need it for the whole thing.
21:00:17 <cpressey> Define a MIPSIJ machine whose instructions are like MIPS but which supports arithmetic identical to what JS natively supports. Then tweak the MIPS compiler backend to produce MIPSIJ.
21:00:45 <nooga> does gcc still support 16 bit archs ?
21:01:03 <fizzie> JS doesn't have any built-in integer maths, is probably the problem. All the numbers are double-precision floats.
21:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> But why does that stop you from using the built-in stuff for integer operations?
21:02:32 <fizzie> A 32*32 bit multiply doesn't fit in a double, it needs to be faked, I assume.
21:02:49 <fizzie> As for addition and such, you'll have to wrap it around manually.
21:04:38 <Gregor-P> It's overflows that are the issue.
21:04:39 <fizzie> As for GCC, I don't think at least the stock one supports any 16-bit archs.
21:06:24 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:07:25 <cpressey> Gregor-P: I wonder how often C programs rely on that. You could turn it into a processor trap
21:07:35 <cpressey> Or whatever MIPS has for that sort of thing
21:08:07 <cpressey> Specifically, I wonder if VIM relies on that
21:08:15 <fizzie> You'd still need to test for it every time, though.
21:08:40 <cpressey> A test would be faster than this mul32... thing
21:08:44 <Gregor-P> cpressey: EVERYTHING relies on that
21:09:01 <fizzie> Subtraction relies on it, I guess.
21:09:23 <fizzie> Or adding negative numbers, anyway.
21:09:43 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
21:09:55 <cpressey> Wait, just because C specifies the bits appear in a certain way does not mean every C program relies on it.
21:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, OK. C programs without subtraction might not.
21:10:33 <Gregor-W> After having munged that nomath.js a billion times and broken it in horrible ways and fixed it and broken it again, oy.
21:11:43 <fizzie> The multiplication sounds worse, though. If you just blindly multiply two 32-bit numbers, I guess the default double maths will cheerfully perform the multiplication but lose precision in the result, since the significand has just 52 bits.
21:12:34 <cpressey> OK -- communicate with a Java app running on the same page, have it do the integer arith for you.
21:13:07 <Gregor-W> The thing is, you guys, it's really not that slow :P
21:13:16 <fizzie> Or maybe a SOAP web service that you can post XML "multiplication requests" to?
21:13:23 <cpressey> The overhead of talking to a Java applet is probably much higher ;)
21:13:45 <Gregor-W> Also, compilers avoid MUL like the plague. It's not super-common. More common than DIV of course, but not super-common.
21:13:54 <fizzie> The array construction in mul32 would make me nervous, but of course I know very little about the cleverness of JavaScript implementations.
21:13:55 <ais523> ok, this is ridiculous: I was just emailed by ESR
21:14:12 <Gregor-W> ais523: That's already ridiculous, but go on.
21:14:29 <cpressey> Gregor-W: wtf I just realized mul32 is *recursive*. Good job!
21:14:31 <ais523> basically, he was looking to ask me to cooperate on the next INTERCAL release
21:14:45 <ais523> because Knuth had asked him for one
21:14:46 <Gregor-W> cpressey: The scariest part is it works.
21:14:59 <ais523> Gregor-W: is that gcc's mul32, or someone else's?
21:15:15 <Gregor-W> I forget where I got it from, I wrote that years ago :P
21:15:24 <cpressey> ais523: Thank you for bringing today's "scary quotient" up to quota.
21:15:38 <ais523> I know, I'm pretty scared too
21:15:40 <fizzie> Gregor-W: it certainly is better than my "// TODO: implement DMULS.L" that I had in a JavaScript SuperH-3 core.
21:15:49 <Gregor-W> ais523: I think it's of vital importance that you do this >: )
21:15:51 <ais523> I'm not sure whether to expect a huge collaboration or a trademark infringement lawsuit
21:16:23 <Gregor-W> BTW, feel free to go to http://codu.org/jsmips/system.html and see that JSMIPS does in fact work.
21:16:24 <nooga> i need C compiler that targets 8086/88
21:16:41 <fizzie> Open... ah, I'm so slow.
21:16:42 <AnMaster> I just used the rexec protocol
21:16:58 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: Because you were out of rakes?
21:17:15 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, joke detected but not identified
21:18:14 <Gregor-W> cpressey: What terrible browser is this? :P
21:18:31 <AnMaster> other things about the system I used it against: nmap could only identify these services: ftp, smtp. However other open ports include: 59, 79, 80, 111, 259, 261, 262, 512, 514, 517
21:18:32 <fizzie> Oh, it downloads and loads everything in ./bin if you "ls" it?
21:18:38 <fizzie> Heh, this seems like it'll take a moment.
21:18:42 <cpressey> ./bin/vim loaded. \ \ E418: Illegal value: %s
21:19:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, any guess about this system?
21:19:27 <Gregor-W> vim is missing a few syscalls, but runs *shrugs*
21:19:46 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I think both OpenGenera and nmap went spare from trying to nmap it.
21:19:47 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
21:20:02 <fizzie> For the record, my FF 3.6.7 was capable of listing bin (and running vim), though a bit slowly.
21:20:07 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, you need to make jsOpenGenera
21:20:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:20:34 <cpressey> Oh I'm sorry. I'm a FF 3.6.8 now
21:20:45 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
21:20:57 <AnMaster> echo -e '\0Lisp-Machine\0\0Help Commands\0' | netcat 10.0.0.2 514
21:21:08 <AnMaster> assuming you are not logged in on the lisp machine at the same time
21:21:28 <AnMaster> if you are, it returns an error stating "This machine is in use by <user name>"
21:21:50 <AnMaster> Lisp-Machine there is my user name
21:22:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:22:53 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
21:23:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, then go work on microcosm
21:23:08 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
21:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, ESR has called upon you to help him make an INTERCAL release for Knuth?
21:23:48 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that statement, while correct, is too ridiculous for me to verify without bursting out into laughter
21:23:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wait what? Where did ais523 state that?
21:23:57 <ais523> AnMaster: earlier when you weren't paying attention
21:24:08 <AnMaster> ais523, oh when I was nmaping opengenera then I guess
21:24:27 <AnMaster> how would it differ from normal releases?
21:24:34 <ais523> no idea; probably it wouldn't
21:24:39 <fizzie> In addition to OpenWatcom, I think I did run across bcc -- http://dir.filewatcher.com/d/NetBSD/1.5/i386/bcc-95.3.12.tgz.83488.html -- earlier; it's very small and limited and early ("K&R1 syntax"), but I guess you can still call it a C compiler, and it targets 8086.
21:24:59 <fizzie> ais523: It'd be just like any other INTERCAL release, except with better typography.
21:25:08 <ais523> fizzie: I've used bcc, it was one of the build dependencies of virtualbox
21:25:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: GCC already *has* a MMIX backend, I think.
21:25:33 <ais523> fizzie: well, INTERCAL's main manual has moved from nroff to Texinfo
21:25:39 <ais523> so it is being TeX-typeset nowadays, indirectly
21:25:40 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:25:42 <AnMaster> literate programming in intercal would be kind of weird-awesome
21:25:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess the world is more awesome than I thought
21:26:05 <ais523> it's actually relatively easy in CLC-INTERCAL
21:26:10 <ais523> DO ABSTAIN FROM COMMENTS
21:26:14 <fizzie> At least the 4.5.0 manual has a chapter on MMIX, http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.5.0/gcc/MMIX-Options.html
21:26:17 <ais523> then write anything you like, so long as it doesn't look like code
21:26:35 <fizzie> There's a funnily named "-mknuthdiv" flag.
21:26:36 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the please ratio?
21:26:50 <ais523> but then, you only need 1/5
21:27:01 <ais523> and as each comment would count as one statement, you'd have plenty of actual commands to put pleases on
21:27:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: as in, quotations, or as in hypothetical bills for work I haven't agreed to do yet?
21:28:02 <fizzie> "Your mission, should you choose to accept it, ..."
21:28:02 <ais523> not yet, there's not much to say yet
21:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, does he actually say why Knuth wants him to do this?
21:30:11 <ais523> no, basically no info yet
21:30:21 <ais523> also, you're asking a load of questions I don't know the answer to, that's AnMaster's job
21:30:56 <fizzie> Yes, you'd better not be barging on his "turf".
21:31:59 <cpressey> I wonder if my sed understands UTF-8 or whatever the heck this is
21:33:53 <fizzie> My 'sed' at least seems to treat input as bytes: "echo ä | sed -e 's/\xc3/Q/' | iconv -f iso-8859-1" => "HAH¤"; so it picked the 0xc3 first-byte of ä without interpreting it as a single unit.
21:34:09 <cpressey> I'm trying: find . -type f -exec sed -i 's/ú/ú/g' {} \;
21:34:30 <fizzie> That sounds like it should work even when interpreting as bytes.
21:35:29 <cpressey> I assume modern INTERCALs support Unicode?
21:35:42 <ais523> cpressey: depends on what you mean by "support"
21:35:46 <cpressey> In some idiomatically INTERCAL-esque fashion?
21:35:47 <ais523> they are capable of reading Unicode, yes
21:36:00 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:36:22 <fizzie> UTF-8 is even pleasant enough that you can't have two >= U+0080 UTF-8-encoded characters next to each other so that some substring that contains parts of both would be valid UTF-8 too, so a "s/ú/.../" shouldn't match anything else than real characters.
21:36:31 <cheater99> i've temporarily taken over a project that manages uranium storage and transport
21:37:02 <cpressey> So, the "scary quotient" just kind of skyrocketed
21:37:22 <fizzie> So... radiation: it's what's for dinner?
21:37:54 <ais523> cpressey: let's just say, some characters have encoding-specific meanings
21:38:08 <Sgeo> Vala natively uses UTF-8
21:38:15 <ais523> as in, what various operators do depend on the encoding which they were written with in the source code
21:38:19 <cheater99> this is one of the biggest companies in europe
21:38:33 <Sgeo> Which is refreshing, after Python's implenentation dependent "Do we do it correctly, or not?"
21:39:51 <AnMaster> <ais523> also, you're asking a load of questions I don't know the answer to, that's AnMaster's job <-- Does that mean I have a "license to ask such questions" kind of thingy?
21:40:03 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it annoys me whoever does it
21:40:11 <ais523> but at least from you it's expected
21:40:33 <Sgeo> <Flonk> Is there anyone that could help me with my little BitBlt problem?
21:40:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I've worked at large corporations which won't even use PHP to sell books.
21:40:45 <Sgeo> Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric?
21:40:45 <Sgeo> <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
21:41:06 -!- Flonk has joined.
21:41:23 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: To perpetrate questionable information -- sure, it's good at that
21:41:44 <ais523> `addquote (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
21:41:56 <HackEgo> 200|(in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
21:42:20 <ais523> cpressey: I thought "perpetrate" was the usual verb for creating an INTERCAL compiler
21:42:36 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover: nothing :) But If someone in here could help me with C++, thatd be awesome
21:43:04 <Sgeo> C++ is an esolang of unprecidented complexity, so it does seem appropriate here
21:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Has your compiler attacked you with a fork or other piece of cutlery
21:44:02 <Sgeo> In full seriousness, there is a ##C++
21:44:12 <Flonk> well, so my question:
21:44:36 <Sgeo> We won't mind if you ask here
21:44:43 <ais523> yep, this channel's off topic half the time
21:44:57 <ais523> and enough of us fail to know C++ less than average that we might be able to help
21:45:38 <Flonk> hdc = BeginPaint(hWnd, &ps);
21:45:40 <Flonk> bitDC = CreateCompatibleDC(hdc);
21:45:42 <Flonk> paint_frac(bitDC);
21:45:43 <Flonk> BitBlt(hdc, 0, 0, width, height, bitDC, 0, 0, SRCCOPY);
21:45:47 <Flonk> EndPaint(hWnd, &ps);
21:45:48 <Flonk> the problem is, it doesnt do anything.
21:45:49 <Flonk> paint_frac basically just draws lots of lines, and works fine if i use it on the window dc (hdc)
21:45:51 <Flonk> But I have my problems with memory DC's, so it seems
21:47:10 * Sgeo is GUI-disabled after having learned VB5 as a first language
21:47:21 <Sgeo> Or at least, that's what I claim
21:47:22 <cpressey> "Before an application can use a memory device context for drawing operations, it must select a bitmap of the correct width and height into the device context. This may be done by using CreateCompatibleBitmap to specify the height, width, and color organization required in the function call. "
21:47:39 <ais523> hmm, is that Win32 API?
21:47:45 <ais523> I used to use that a lot
21:48:02 <fizzie> It is unmistakably it.
21:48:11 <Flonk> cpressey: alright! thanks :)
21:48:15 <ais523> anyway, I'm not convinced that bitDC is the right sort of DC at all
21:48:29 <ais523> at least, I'd expect there to be memory backing it somewhere
21:48:34 <Flonk> its just aa variable name
21:48:45 <ais523> I know, but normally I used MemoryDCs for that sort of thing
21:48:49 <cpressey> Flonk: Note that I am running about 90% on intuition here. I googled CreateCompatibleDC, skimmed the first page that came up, picked a paragraph, and copied it here.
21:48:53 <ais523> hmm, let me try to find some code I wrote to remind me about how it works
21:49:07 <fizzie> Also, BitBlt returns a bool; check it first. If it's zero, do GetLastError once.
21:49:33 <Flonk> yeah well, if it doesnt work I'll notice it :P
21:49:49 <ais523> sometimes it's useful to know whether the computer thought it worked
21:49:53 <ais523> regardless of whether it actually worked
21:50:35 <ais523> hmm, it seems I never /did/ make my DCs by hand, I always used a third-party library
21:50:42 <ais523> so I can't really help, as my memory of how this works is all wrong
21:50:47 <Flonk> yeah, but thats basically the whole program
21:50:58 <Flonk> ais523: okay :) thanks anyway
21:51:48 <fizzie> And if the computer thought it didn't work, it's usually useful to know why it thinks so.
21:52:22 * cpressey wonders why so many are GUI-adverse in this channel
21:52:51 <ais523> cpressey: my guess is that it's because we're used to doing the sort of horrendously complex things that command lines can do but GUIs generally can't
21:53:07 <ais523> I imagine half this channel could write a nontrivial shell script
21:53:14 <ais523> and the only real reason the other have couldn't is that they use Windows
21:53:22 <ais523> and thus don't have a decent shell-script interpreter
21:54:27 <fizzie> MSDN on CreateCompatibleDC: "When the memory DC is created, its display surface is exactly one monochrome pixel wide and one monochrome pixel high. Before an application can use a memory DC for drawing operations, it must select a bitmap of the correct width and height into the DC. To select a bitmap into a DC, use the CreateCompatibleBitmap function, specifying the height, width, and color organization required."
21:54:44 <fizzie> So it's not enough just to create a DC like that.
21:54:56 <ais523> that pretty much matches my memory of the general way you do things, even if I don't know any of the function names as I wasn't using them
21:55:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: basic Windows unit of graphics
21:55:06 <ais523> in the sense of "one window, one bitmap, etc"
21:55:09 <ais523> rather than in the sense of "one pixel"
21:55:22 <cpressey> fizzie: Ha! My intuitive leap is justified by actual research.
21:55:30 <fizzie> Device Context; it has pen attributes and things like that in it.
21:55:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:55:51 <ais523> it's a GDI32 concept, and that whole toolkit's deprecated nowadays
21:56:00 <ais523> because Microsoft keep changing their mind about how best to do graphics
21:57:44 <cpressey> Gregor: ^C ^V ^X do some interesting things to the JSMIPS term
21:58:18 <fizzie> In other news, I tried recently to do a custom-draw widget with Gtk#'s Gtk and Pango bindings, and text-layouting was hellishly slow; but they included a CairoHelper that let you create a Cairo.Context on a Gdk.Drawable (GDK's built on Cairo nowadays, I think), and drawing directly with it was a couple of magnitudes faster.
21:58:36 <cpressey> Gregor: Oh and hey, cd bin; echo * doesn't run out of memory
21:59:05 <cpressey> whoami makes the whole page flash red. nice
21:59:23 <Flonk> cheater99: no, Device Context
21:59:36 <Flonk> cheater99: some sort of canvas you can use for everything
21:59:56 <ais523> note, Microsoft: discussing your graphics toolsets in #esoteric isn't even really offtopic. You should fix that!
22:00:16 <fizzie> Flonk: Noticed the bit about CreateCompatibleDC being 1x1 monochrome pixel unless you create a bitmap on it?
22:00:55 <Flonk> fizzie: i did, thanks :) googling a bit about that atm
22:01:11 <fizzie> (It's noisier here than what I'm accustomed to, so felt like checking.)
22:02:47 <Gregor-P> cpressey: The problem is that stat downloads the file.
22:03:04 <fizzie> The official example, also:
22:03:07 <fizzie> HDC memDC = CreateCompatibleDC ( hDC );
22:03:07 <fizzie> HBITMAP memBM = CreateCompatibleBitmap ( hDC, nWidth, nHeight );
22:03:07 <fizzie> SelectObject ( memDC, memBM );
22:03:16 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:03:26 <fizzie> (And then a DeleteObject() on memBM when done.)
22:04:19 <Flonk> cpressey, fizzie: kinda works now, thanks guys :)
22:06:07 <fizzie> You're welcome, though I did get some nasty flashbacks to five years back when I actually did work on a win32 app that was a lot of GDI drawing; and 2D DirectDraw, and a third-party sprite thing on top of that, bhrrrrrr.
22:08:05 <ais523> why is Windows programming so dominated by third-party libraries?
22:09:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
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22:10:50 <Flonk> I try to use as little third party code as possible, just doesnt feel like I did it myself otherwise :D
22:11:38 <Flonk> like, in Brainfuck or something
22:11:56 <Flonk> well, its touring complete
22:12:12 <Sgeo> turing complete does not mean can do anything, just can compute anything
22:12:18 <Sgeo> That's what PSOX was meant to help address
22:12:47 <fizzie> MS deprecated the 2D DirectDraw completely in favour of Direct3D, the graphics people kept wanting to do translucency tricks but we just had color-key transparency, no alpha channels, the sprite engine wasn't ours to bugfix... gah.
22:13:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:13:27 <fizzie> You should've seen the "sprites with frames that match tinted versions of different parts of the background" workarounds.
22:14:06 <ais523> or would that be even worse?
22:14:14 <fizzie> It's not pretty enough, I guess.
22:14:27 <AnMaster> yay I have a working http server under open-genera
22:14:39 <AnMaster> now to figure out how to make it load anything but the documentation
22:14:56 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not really
22:15:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, note: opengenera
22:15:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is a virtual lisp machine
22:15:35 <AnMaster> probably way faster than a real one would be
22:15:38 <ais523> I do sympathise with Microsoft's programmers to some extent, though; I blame most of Microsoft's misdeeds on a huge corporate hivemind that somehow manages to take over despite the desires of any of the individual employees
22:16:08 <fizzie> Oh, there was also a dirty hack on the sprite engine to make it possible to set a "y cut" value to hide the lower half of a sprite starting from specific pixel line; then you could put two sprites on top with different background-translucencies, and alter the y-cut as the sprite moved from bottom part of screen to top.
22:16:10 <cpressey> ais523: They eventually learn to stop having those desires
22:16:28 <Sgeo> Clucky is an MS.. oh, you don't know him
22:16:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think you could pull off installing it. Mainly because of stuff like "if you don't read every single line of the guides found on the web, and every single message that the system throws at you, you likely will end up having to start over from the beginning"
22:16:47 <AnMaster> and well, that isn't your forte :P
22:16:59 <ais523> cpressey: I don't feel that evil is any more highly concentrated in Microsoft than elsewhere in the general population
22:17:09 <fizzie> Microsoft Res... gah! Stop pre-empting my sentences, Gregor.
22:17:26 <fizzie> I was about to say that they seem like a froody bunch.
22:17:30 <AnMaster> also setting up NIS was a real pain
22:17:40 <Gregor-P> fizzie: On a phone, from within MSR :P
22:17:40 <cpressey> ais523: I think what I said applies to the corporate world in general
22:17:44 <Sgeo> Allegiance is from MSR
22:17:48 <ais523> cpressey: yes, probably
22:18:02 <cpressey> Research units are not as badly effected
22:18:12 <fizzie> Gregor-P: On a phone, from within my bathroom, trying to get to a shower; so there!
22:18:36 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, I think this is the most unsecure linux system ever (in virtualbox). It is an old unsupported ubuntu version (because opengenera breaks with modern X servers it seems), running without shadow passwords, nis wide open, telnet too.
22:18:58 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, at least I installed all patches, otherwise it would have had the openssl bug _as well_
22:19:15 <fizzie> But is it worse than the "Damn Vulnerable Linux" distro?
22:19:16 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, oh and nfs is there too, but not quite as wide open
22:19:26 <cpressey> As a replacement for those desires, they bikeshed about the content of 404 pages and details of their "agile method" procedures
22:20:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://www.damnvulnerablelinux.org/
22:20:11 <ais523> AnMaster: is it online?
22:21:10 <ais523> not being connected to the Internet does wonders for a system's security
22:21:14 <AnMaster> ais523, for a start, I can't get virtualbox NAT forwarding to work
22:21:21 <AnMaster> ais523, but it does have access to the internet
22:21:27 <AnMaster> but yeah behind multiple firewalls
22:22:09 <AnMaster> first my router, then virtualbox's NAT, then "not yet properly setup NAT between eth0 and tun0" in the guest
22:22:46 <AnMaster> besides I have no clue how to make dns lookup work
22:23:12 <AnMaster> I'm supposed to enter the root servers in one place I know. And also there is this checkbox if root servers do recursive resolving or not
22:25:00 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, lisp machines allow rsh and rexec as long as no local user is logged in
22:25:13 <AnMaster> oh and there is no such thing as passwords for logging in on a lisp machines
22:25:38 <AnMaster> oh and you can get a list of valid accounts without logging in
22:25:47 <AnMaster> oh and you can even create a new one without logging in
22:26:18 <AnMaster> ais523, however it does seem to not crash on nmap version scan, just complains loudly
22:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that most 64-bit systems don't use all 64 bits of an address,
22:30:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm? x86-64 uses 48 bits, sign extended
22:30:57 <AnMaster> kernel lives in the negative half of the address space, user space in the positive
22:31:28 <AnMaster> if you check /proc/cpuinfo it will probably tell you that your actual cpu is even more limited
22:31:41 <AnMaster> address sizes: 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
22:31:55 <AnMaster> address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
22:32:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, iirc the cpu checks that addresses are properly sign extended
22:33:11 <AnMaster> unless you fix it up before dereferencing
22:33:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:34:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, besides, afaik x86-64 specs says it might be extended to the full 64 bits in the future
22:34:20 <fizzie> I used the 8 bits for type-tagging in that x86-64 Scheme implementation.
22:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I was thinking of using that for the aforementioned Lisp OS.
22:35:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah; the omitted bits are merely for the sake of reducing the work in the CPU, IIRC.
22:35:52 <fizzie> Though technically I had the type tag as the least significant byte (since that's independently usable in a x86 reg) and then just shifted by 8 to get raw pointers.
22:39:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
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22:40:30 <oerjan> and a good evening to you too
22:40:47 <cpressey> oerjan, ais523: remind me to ask you to review my proof that P != NP when I finish writing it
22:40:58 <cpressey> and then to call up the asylum, of course
22:41:07 <ais523> cpressey: I'll happily review it for you
22:41:18 <ais523> and try to find the bug
22:41:25 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah; the omitted bits are merely for the sake of reducing the work in the CPU, IIRC. <-- indeed
22:41:35 <ais523> I'm pretty curious as to how you prove the != there, given that diagonalisation doesn't work
22:41:42 <ais523> you can compare it with augur's proof that P=NP to see which of you is wrong
22:42:05 <pikhq> ais523: Clearly you assume P=NP and then prove that 1=1 from that.
22:42:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> you can compare it with augur's proof that P=NP to see which of you is wrong <-- a flawed proof I assume?
22:42:35 <ais523> pikhq: unforunately, converses are not always correct
22:42:43 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, he hasn't shown anyone for fear they'll steal it
22:42:56 <pikhq> ais523: Erm. 1=100
22:43:04 <pikhq> ais523: Thinkotastic.
22:43:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, but maybe 1 *is* equal to 100
22:43:23 <pikhq> That's... Actually a valid proof strategy, rather than nonsense. :P
22:43:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Maybe in the retard axiomatic system.
22:43:54 <pikhq> Good thing that's not what we use.
22:44:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: The least significant. You know, 0..7. Then you do an arithmetical right-shift of 8 to get a raw pointer, so there's 56-bit pointers with the usual low/high half thing.
22:44:37 <oerjan> <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, he hasn't shown anyone for fear they'll steal it
22:44:48 <AnMaster> I just found out that this web server CL-HTTP is still developed
22:44:48 <oerjan> ok _that_ is surely one of the crank signs :D
22:44:55 <AnMaster> and lisp machines is still a supported target
22:45:12 <oerjan> (paranoia. in fact i read a list of crank signs yesterday, so...)
22:45:24 <ais523> oerjan: how many apply to Feather?
22:46:00 <cpressey> AnMaster: Obviously it's flawed, as I have proved P != NP. No, you can't steal it either!!!
22:46:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm that only works for user space pointers
22:46:10 <oerjan> ais523: i don't think feather makes any _claims_ yet, does it? so possibly none.
22:46:28 <ais523> I'd be mad to make claims about Feather without being able to verify them myself
22:46:34 <oerjan> hm i think it was on reddit
22:46:52 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
22:47:15 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, http://sprunge.us/EajT
22:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> They very nearly made a show called "syntax era", and it smacks of you.
22:47:35 <pikhq> Haldo, enohpiesila
22:47:40 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and I just found out that web server is still developed, and lisp machines is still a supported target
22:47:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, it works just fine for kernel-space pointers; that was the whole point of "arithmetical right-shift -- with the usual low/high half thing".
22:48:05 <ais523> (and it says something about me that I decided what to say, then tabcompleted aliseiphone's nick, then deleted the iphone bit
22:48:05 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, rather than using the old one included with opengenera
22:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, there are established server frameworks for CL.
22:48:17 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, this is the most insecure ubuntu vm ever
22:48:20 <oerjan> hm possibly it was just in a comment
22:48:25 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Whitehouse archive site used to run on lisp machines.
22:48:53 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, non-shadow passwords. Wide open NIS. wide open telnet. Somewhat open nfs
22:49:10 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and if I hadn't updated it, it would have had the infamous openssl bug
22:49:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://skepticblog.org/2010/07/08/martin-gardners-signs-of-a-crank/
22:49:40 <ais523> AnMaster: the openssl bug doesn't make the computer it's on particularly insecure, though
22:49:41 <fizzie> (Oh, and there was the usual 63-bit immediate integer thing, leaving 7 bits for other types
22:49:45 <ais523> it makes /other/ computers more insecure
22:49:49 <oerjan> ais523: i guess you hit the first, at least :D
22:50:30 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, well, it is due to NIS. opengenera doesn't support NIS with shadow
22:50:32 <oerjan> ais523: i suggest you check the logs for the URL i just pasted
22:50:57 <ais523> anyway, can anyone suggest what I should do if my computer smells like a soldering iron?
22:51:03 <ais523> that's it! it's not burning, it's desoldering itself
22:51:10 <ais523> umm, I should probably turn it off again
22:51:19 <ais523> I'll read logs in the morning to see what your advice is
22:51:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:52:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: there's also the crackpot index: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html
22:53:57 <oerjan> that one seems to require more work, though :D
22:54:46 <oklopol> "<ais523> I'm pretty curious as to how you prove the != there, given that diagonalisation doesn't work" <<< if no other way to separate classes is invented at some point, god must seriously hate computer scientists
22:55:11 <oklopol> and in the finite state world, the only technique is pigeonholing, which is just as boring
22:55:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:56:07 <oklopol> you can use reductions and closure properties to make using them less bothersome ofc
22:56:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if you checked the logs for your nick you'd know i already commented on your syntax era. to be more precise, i said it looked more like a spelling era to me
22:58:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:58:34 <oerjan> <aliseiphone> <oerjan> ...skeptic... <-- it might behoove you to note that that link also mentions that some annoying _skeptics_ display many of the crank signs. *whistles innocently*
22:58:52 <ais523> well, different computer, running Windows (ugh), using a webclient...
22:59:32 <oerjan> "I find that a few skeptics are little different methodologically from the pseudoscientists they so fervently argue against, and so I believe it.s of great value to everyone to familiarize himself with Gardner's list."
22:59:34 <oklopol> maybe there's an invariant we could compute for P and NP to check they're different?!?
22:59:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
22:59:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I turned it off, and am using a different one
23:00:06 <ais523> and it doesn't smell of burnt silicon, but burning solder
23:00:35 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Well I don't consider myself a "skeptic" and dislike e.g. RationalWiki and the Dawkins forums.
23:00:47 <ais523> aliseiphone: any idea of what I should do? it's the same model as yours IIRC
23:00:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
23:01:02 <oerjan> aliseiphone: LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
23:01:11 <oklopol> (the reason that won't work is invariants are usually only useful when the isomorphisms are too complex to find, so we just find something that a theoretical isomorphism would keep invariant, here we know exactly what the isomorphism will be, because it's simply the isomorphism of Set)
23:01:15 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
23:01:16 <AnMaster> ais523, so was that your netbook?
23:01:19 <ais523> aliseiphone: there's a fan control?
23:01:30 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
23:01:39 <aliseiphone> It's a high power machine with an 11" screen.
23:01:40 <ais523> it's a sort of pseudonetbook
23:01:49 <ais523> think "netbook except it's meant to run windows 7"
23:02:13 <AnMaster> anyway, doesn't the computer control the fan itself?
23:02:17 <cpressey> Skeptic: I shall beat you over the head with conventional wisdom! CONVENTIONAL!!!
23:02:26 <aliseiphone> Try bios; failing that download program to control it
23:02:31 <ais523> sometimes the fan gets stuck and I have to hit it hard in the top-left corner to get it starting again
23:02:35 <ais523> but the fan was running fine this time
23:02:43 <ais523> besides, it turns itself off when it overheats
23:02:44 <aliseiphone> there usually - always - is a way to control it.
23:03:13 <ais523> what would the BIOS section do? set the fan to run constantly?
23:03:19 <cpressey> so, my wunnderful sed UTF-8 attempt didn't actually replace the UTF-8 character -- just inserted the replacement after it, apparently.
23:03:24 <ais523> also, what do you mean by "just heat" here?
23:03:36 <AnMaster> <ais523> sometimes the fan gets stuck and I have to hit it hard in the top-left corner to get it starting again <-- aaaaaaaargh
23:03:43 <aliseiphone> cpresseySkeptic: I shall beat you over the head with conventional wisdom! CONVENTIONAL!!!
23:03:55 <ais523> well, there needs to be an actual chemical to make the smell
23:04:01 <Sgeo> It's an alise!
23:04:05 <ais523> oerjan: I've actually seen that list before, but had just forgotten it
23:04:12 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Why is evolution true? ATTENBOROUGH SAYS IT'S TRUE, THAT'S WHY.
23:04:26 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> there usually - always - is a way to control it. <-- yes, but the computer and it's software tend to go out of it's way to protect you. I need to pass a special module parameter to some kernel module to allow manual fan control
23:04:43 <oerjan> cpressey: dick lipton over at the Godel's Lost Letter blog uses "Conventional Wisdom" as a slightly derogatory term.
23:04:49 <Sgeo> The computer and it is software?
23:05:18 <AnMaster> I don't think it is possible to control it manually at all from under windows
23:05:35 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, on my thinkpad I meant
23:05:41 <Sgeo> <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> there usually - always - is a way to control it. <-- yes, but the computer and it is software tend to go out of it is way to protect you. I need to pass a special module parameter to some kernel module to allow manual fan control
23:05:43 <ais523> oerjan: Feather quite possibly hits number 26
23:05:49 <ais523> but seems to dodge most of the others
23:06:12 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I fail to see the issue with it
23:06:12 <aliseiphone> ais523: I will pay you to work on Feather.
23:06:15 <oerjan> ais523: wait you're actually looking at the crackpot index? that's not the first link i gave, anyway.
23:06:32 <ais523> Sgeo: what's with the literal backspaces around AnMaster's nick in those quotes?
23:06:57 <Sgeo> ais523, I think XChat tried to copy color codes when I copied that part
23:07:02 <aliseiphone> ais523: Xchat formatting goop often copies
23:07:03 <AnMaster> yes something is strange there. I see the highlight stops right after the first > in my client
23:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> When someone gives me a brief outline of Feather I will be happy.
23:07:43 <Sgeo> The color code ends after that >
23:07:52 <AnMaster> this channel blocks colour codes
23:07:57 <aliseiphone> ais523: Can you tell me what cpp yields for this?
23:08:08 <ais523> aliseiphone: this isn't my computer
23:08:13 <ais523> and it doesn't have a C compiler as a result
23:08:28 <ais523> so I can try to do it in my head, but might not be accurate
23:08:28 <Sgeo> Well, whether it has a C compiler or not is irrevant >.>
23:08:37 <ais523> I think it just gives you f(a), but I'm not completely sure
23:09:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I get <stdin>:3:4: error: macro "f" requires 2 arguments, but only 1 given
23:09:51 <ais523> aliseiphone: undefined behaviour
23:09:53 <Flonk> well, see you guys. bye!
23:09:55 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
23:10:07 <ais523> you're trying to token-paste a punctuation mark to an identifier, I know that one
23:10:15 <ais523> what happens in practice could be interesting, though
23:10:56 <aliseiphone> ais523: I suspect if this yielded "foo" cpp would be TC.
23:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <stdin>:4:1: error: pasting "(" and "a" does not give a valid preprocessing token
23:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> <stdin>:4:1: error: pasting "a" and ")" does not give a valid preprocessing token
23:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> <stdin>:4:1: error: macro "f" requires 2 arguments, but only 1 given
23:11:32 <Gregor-P> Just use f( x ) instead of f(##x##)
23:11:39 * Sgeo likes Vala's distinction between runtime errors and assert things
23:11:57 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Do what Gregor-P said in g
23:13:03 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: We assume an implementation unrestrained so.
23:13:15 <oerjan> <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Better than "Conquering Russia".
23:13:24 <aliseiphone> Like we assume interpreters have infinite memory.
23:13:39 <oerjan> Conquering Poland > Conquering Norway > Conquering Russia > Conquering Afghanistan
23:13:50 <Gregor-P> Yeah, the fact that our interpreters suck is irrelevant.
23:14:03 <aliseiphone> We can store them, pack them, unpack them.
23:14:22 <oerjan> (everybody and their dog has conquered poland)
23:14:37 <ais523> so cpp fails to be TC just because it's allowed to put arbitrary limits on recursion?
23:14:45 <Sgeo> How do you configure a function to accept varargs in C++?
23:15:00 <ais523> Sgeo: you run away screaming
23:15:10 <ais523> saves time in the long run
23:15:24 <Sgeo> I mean, in C, if you don't have (void) in the arglist, it's vararg
23:15:28 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: this is why I don't discuss things publicly >_>
23:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, lists are pretty trivial after what you just did.
23:16:00 <Sgeo> (or other argument list)
23:18:07 <Sgeo> 10 in some base
23:18:13 <cpressey> I'm going to go into psychology, specializing in treating NIH
23:18:53 <Sgeo> Also, what was false about what I said, alise?
23:19:16 <oerjan> the programmers who say NIH
23:19:28 <Sgeo> So what's the point of (void)?
23:20:44 <Sgeo> Now I'm confused. You don't need ... for varargs? Or just in the special case of an OS li... AAAAAA
23:20:52 <Sgeo> When you do need ...?
23:21:14 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:21:27 <aliseiphone> () means "this thing takes anything". It is hopelessly vague.
23:21:48 <Sgeo> Wouldn't (...) also mean the same thing? Except I guess it's clearer to do (...)
23:22:17 <aliseiphone> Variadic funxtins must have one normal arg
23:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you *cannot* have a varargs function that can take 0 args.
23:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Arguments are pushed onto the stack, so you need to know how many there are.
23:23:09 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: That is NOT the only convention
23:23:16 <Sgeo> I think Vala poisoned my mind
23:23:24 <Sgeo> What Vala does is have the last thing be null
23:23:28 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Valinor is Australia!
23:23:34 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. But this is standards.
23:23:39 <oerjan> the elves went a _bit_ downhill, don't you think?
23:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, example: printf("%p") will print the address of the calling function with my CC.
23:25:23 -!- cheater99 has joined.
23:25:28 <Sgeo> So printf is printf()?
23:25:36 <Sgeo> And not printf(string, ...)?
23:25:52 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: #define foo(...) if (!*#__VA_ARGS__) foo0(); else fooN(__VA_ARGS__)
23:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the format tells printf what to do with the rest of the args.
23:26:49 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Also, that foo hack only works for void returns
23:27:04 <aliseiphone> Can work for returns with gcc statement expressions.
23:27:37 <Sgeo> I won't even remember it
23:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, just remember: don't use () for variadic functions.
23:28:40 <Sgeo> Unless valac produces code that uses it
23:29:06 <Sgeo> Bleh, that l looked like an I for some reason. There was, in fact, no typo
23:30:10 <aliseiphone> #define hd_(x,...) x / #define hd(x) hd_( x ) / #define tl_(x,...) __VA_ARGS__ / #define tl(x) tl_( x ) / #define foo a,b,c,d / hd(tl(foo))
23:30:50 <Sgeo> What would happen if you did something like #define test #define y 5
23:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> list.h:6:1: error: unterminated argument list invoking macro "hd"
23:31:56 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:32:09 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I'm "restoring" the last CL-HTTP from a tape image
23:32:29 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, argh that I forgot to disable the automatic | more equiv
23:32:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:33:27 <Sgeo> Cpp == C preprocessor?
23:33:36 <aliseiphone> Ok, I can definitely prove it's TC. Probably. Tomorrow.
23:33:59 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:34:13 <Sgeo> No wonder I was confused. I was wondering why you were working with C++ for this
23:34:36 <Sgeo> Does this mean that C is turing-complete now?
23:34:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:35:26 <Sgeo> Can the non-cpp C code take advantage of the turing-completeness of the preprocessor to itself be turing-complete?
23:35:47 <aliseiphone> I haven't proved it's tc yet. Stay calm :P
23:35:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:35:54 <ais523> because it can't re-invoke the preprocessor while running
23:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, wait, you need to be careful with the last element.
23:36:32 <aliseiphone> ais523: is the f( x ) trick standards compliant?
23:38:07 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Im not sure you can do map
23:38:59 <ais523> aliseiphone: I don't know
23:39:04 <ais523> the spaces are likely irrelevant
23:39:10 <ais523> it's the indirection that does it
23:41:04 <ais523> the issue is that it has to be an arithmetic expression both ways round
23:41:11 <ais523> what you should do is define true and false unlambda-style
23:41:22 <ais523> say, use head and tail as true and false
23:41:39 <ais523> and apply them to a cons cell in order to extract their values
23:43:45 <ais523> it has first-class tokens, which can be macro names, though
23:44:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:45:38 * Sgeo saw someone once type a URL into chat so they could click it
23:46:45 <cpressey> Can't I devise an offline adversary that pessimizes the solution to TAUT?
23:49:06 * Sgeo vaguely happies at his Nexus One
23:49:14 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, I know that. I still get involuntary spasms.
23:50:30 <Sgeo> I don't shudder in fear every time I see the word... you know what, now that I think of it, it may be offensive
23:50:47 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, the last CL-HTTP version doesn't work... It complains about not finding the host "wilson.ai.mit.edu"
23:50:57 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I know where it comes from, considering how to fix it atm
23:53:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:54:23 <Sgeo> "Sometimes I think you no longer love me. I know that is just my low self esteem talking but, you know, it would be nice to hear you say it every now and then."
23:55:21 <Sgeo> Why is an ineffectual egomaniac anyone to be afraid of?
23:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Because no-one can be *that* weird without being out to hunt me.
23:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I still wish I knew where that picture on my article came from.
23:57:38 <Sgeo> Lumenos talks to himself?
23:59:21 <Phantom_Hoover> http://podictionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/dude.jpg seems to be a source.
00:00:37 <Sgeo> I thought you meant a picture of _you_
00:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "Evander Berry Wall (1860–1940) was a New York dude[1] who became famous in the 1880s for his extravagantly refined look."
00:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> That is the single best opening to a Wikipedia article.
00:04:45 <aliseiphone> http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Jesus_(carnation_bread)
00:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Will you promise not to be confrontational if I tell you that he's been turning up at RationalWiki lately?
00:07:01 <Sgeo> All because I decided to use "eir"
00:08:19 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Lumenos.
00:08:23 -!- Lumenos has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:08:30 <Sgeo> That's a registered nick
00:08:38 <Sgeo> Let me just reassure everyone that I'm not em
00:08:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU
00:09:22 <Sgeo> oerjan, you don't love me anymore?
00:09:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Lumenos.
00:09:41 -!- Lumenos has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
00:10:33 <cpressey> Is there a name for the problem that is halfway between SAT and TAUT? (Do exactly half the assignments make the sentence true, the other half false?)
00:10:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: reminds me of the congo sapeurs
00:11:47 <cpressey> Complement of SAT (SATISFIABILITY)
00:12:23 <cpressey> But no, I don't know why complexity theorists like SHOUTING.
00:12:33 <oerjan> cpressey: seems connected to #P and PP
00:12:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, how can something be between SAT and TAUT?
00:12:49 <oerjan> #P asks for the exact count
00:13:07 <cpressey> AnMaster: Do exactly half the assignments make the sentence true, the other half false?
00:13:33 <AnMaster> cpressey, what if you have an odd number of assignments?
00:13:50 <oerjan> PP essentially asks for majority, although it's formulated as probability
00:13:54 <cpressey> There are 2^n possible assignments for n variables. How can that be odd?
00:14:55 <oerjan> also +-in-a-circle P asks whether the number is even or odd
00:15:21 <cpressey> oerjan: That last one sounds like it -- hard to Google that though
00:15:27 <AnMaster> that gives... half an assignment?
00:15:55 <oerjan> cpressey: um no it's not whether it's exactly half, it's whether the number is even or odd
00:16:07 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-P
00:19:25 <oerjan> http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Garden#sharpsat is the SAT version for #P
00:20:16 <cpressey> oerjan: I'm naively trying to pessimize possible solutions to this problem
00:21:32 <cpressey> The idea of an adversary doesn't really apply to something like a boolean sentence
00:22:00 <oerjan> encoding an RSA factoring problem usually gives you something practically impossible to solve, afaiu
00:22:30 <cpressey> well, integer factorization is in both NP and co-NP, so...
00:22:51 <oerjan> and you can make it a SAT or TAUT problem as much as you want
00:23:02 <oerjan> cpressey: um no that's primality
00:23:15 <cpressey> oerjan: No.... PRIMES is in P, remember?
00:23:40 <oerjan> actually _finding_ a factor if you know it's a prime is not known to be in co-NP afaik
00:24:28 <oerjan> in fact testing whether there's a factor in a certain interval is NP-complete
00:24:29 <cpressey> Of course, P is in both NP and co-NP, but that's not what I/you meant
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00:24:53 <oerjan> (saw it in lipton's blog archive the other day)
00:25:13 <cpressey> "It is not known exactly which complexity classes contain the decision version of the integer factorization problem. It is known to be in both NP and co-NP."
00:25:20 <cpressey> wikipedia, the perfect authority
00:25:59 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_factorization
00:26:59 <oerjan> oh 1 < d < M, not M < d < N
00:27:07 <oerjan> might make a difference...
00:27:44 <oerjan> oh right it explains why
00:27:58 <oerjan> yeah, that applies only if the lower bound is 1
00:28:24 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Confrontational? I dislike RationalWiki. Doesn't mean I flip at its mention.
00:28:51 <cpressey> It also says " It is suspected to be outside of all three of the complexity classes P, NP-complete, and co-NP-complete." I don't know how it could be in NP (or FNP) and "outside of NP-complete" though...
00:30:09 <oerjan> NP-complete is a subset of NP, possibly strict.
00:30:39 <cpressey> Yeah, I never understood that.
00:30:42 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe for you. I just made what to me was an offhand remark.
00:30:43 <oerjan> "outside" doesn't mean "harder than", just not an element of
00:31:10 <cpressey> Yeah, math talk confuse english brain.
00:31:22 <oerjan> it can be harder than P but easier (in the reduction sense) than NP-complete and co-NP-complete
00:31:31 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: I mean no offence, you irrational Hellspawn, you.
00:32:53 <aliseiphone> So these are the dying moments of my last night as a sleeper.
00:32:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't the only known PRIMES algorithm in P extremely slow? As in, exponential algorithms are faster for practical purposes?
00:33:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: _random_ algorithms are faster for practical purposes
00:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, I suppose you don't get holidays from /bin.
00:33:59 <cpressey> Well, *if* P = NP (I'm not entirely convinced by my own proof) then I bet some of these remarkably efficient algorithms work by creating a new "customized" Turing machine (or PL interpreter of whatever sort) on the fly and emulating it. Or perhaps several in sequence.
00:34:28 <aliseiphone> Even if P = NP the constant is probably huge.
00:34:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: also the random algorithms can be done in such a way as to give a certificate of certainty unless they fail, in which case you just retry
00:34:50 <cpressey> Create a TM which creates a TM which creates a TM which.... k times.
00:35:10 <Ilari> NP-complete is strict subset of NP unless P=NP. NP-complete and co-NP-complete are disjoint unless NP=co-NP (then NP-complete=co-NP-complete).
00:35:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, lets just get a quantum computer and be done with it
00:36:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm not sure that a quantum computer can test primality any faster
00:36:05 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, flip a single bit and you segfault. <-- ECC used to be a lot more common in the early days of RAM
00:36:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm it can factor faster
00:36:19 <aliseiphone> & such an unassuming way it draws to a close. Don't I die at the end of tradgedies? Dammit, playwrite.
00:36:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, and if you can't factor, then you have a prime, right?
00:36:53 <AnMaster> or maybe I was correct to begin with
00:37:12 <oerjan> aliseiphone: btw it hasn't been proved that the constant power if P = NP has to be as big as 2, even...
00:37:29 <oerjan> the best bounds are somewhere between 1 and 2
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00:38:16 <aliseiphone> how many proofs depend on Riemann, Goldbach, Collatz :)
00:38:43 <Slereah> http://abstrusegoose.com/133
00:39:05 <oerjan> aliseiphone: lipton discusses at least 4 possibilities in one if his most popular blog articles: P=NP and fast, P=NP but huge exponent, P != NP and slow, P != NP but so small constants it still works in practice
00:39:40 <oerjan> (can you tell i'm slowly gobbling up his blog archive? :D)
00:40:01 <Slereah> aliseiphone : What's your point
00:40:32 <cpressey> My god, the P=NP argument works! <<falls off bike>>
00:40:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: note that quantum computers only give the correct answer with a certain probability, so you might _still_ want one of those certificates
00:40:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the variant: P?=NP can't be proved with current axioms (that is, it is independent)
00:40:46 <oerjan> (for shor's factorization algorithm)
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00:42:56 <aliseiphone> you can't just have random shit be independent!
00:43:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think that may have been mentioned in the comments
00:43:18 <zzo38> I connected a few seconds ago I got a connection timeout (after sending PASS/NICK/USER), it didn't do that before. But now I connected it worked
00:43:31 <zzo38> Is my IRC client broken?
00:43:35 <zzo38> Or is the server broken?
00:43:39 <zzo38> Or something in between?
00:43:45 <cpressey> aliseiphone: It's certainly a possibility, that there is no proof we can make.
00:43:51 <Ilari> zzo38: Dunno. All kinds of strange transistent errors can happen.
00:44:08 <aliseiphone> cpressey: So P = NP but there is no P algo for NP?
00:44:40 <zzo38> I was trying to write a music synthesizer program so I wrote a music using QORCH
00:44:43 <cpressey> aliseiphone: More likely P != NP and there is no proof.
00:44:46 <oerjan> aliseiphone: there are at least two ways of having it be independent afaict: there is an algorithm that works but no proof that it works, or there's a proof that there's an algorithm but it's nonconstructive and doesn't _actually_ exist :D
00:44:46 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/RHYa
00:45:19 <cpressey> *I* didn't use the word "independent".
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00:45:45 <aliseiphone> oerjan: For the latter the constructivist in me punches you.
00:46:03 <oerjan> wait, of course i forgot the obvious third: no proof and no algorithm
00:46:04 <zzo38> This music is in 12-TET but the program QORCH supports just intonation as well, and even Bohlen-Pierce
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00:46:29 <zzo38> You simply have to enter the correct parameters to the TEMPERAMENT or TUNING commands, to do it.....
00:47:13 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> That's nonsense! <-- indeed. But P!=NP might be true but unprovable or such. I can't see why that one is nonsense
00:47:25 <AnMaster> having P=NP and unprovable would be closer to nonsense though
00:48:05 <cpressey> Mathematics is not yet ready for such problems.
00:48:08 <zzo38> grumbles about destructivism
00:48:30 <zzo38> aliseiphone: Good night you are late!!
00:48:31 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, what about constructivism
00:48:31 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Yer stupid "unprovable" stuffs :P
00:48:32 <Sgeo> Here as in the realworld here, not the #esoteric here
00:48:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: an algorithm which works but no one knows _why_ it works...
00:48:40 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, um, such stuff exists
00:48:56 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, consider that thing about cardinality
00:49:10 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Yeah. But constructivist mathematics has much less.
00:49:16 <cpressey> We could have P algorithms for NP-complete problems, but we can't prove they are in P
00:49:41 <oerjan> cpressey: or we cannot prove they actually give the right answer
00:50:37 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> Well, goodnight for the last time here. <-- good night then ;P
00:50:48 <Sgeo> Oh, I see what independent means
00:50:57 <cpressey> Still, considering P?=NP to be independent is a nice mindbender trip: the algorithm version of non-Euclidean geometry
00:51:01 <aliseiphone> Independent X wrt ZFC: ZFCX and ZFCnotX are consistent relative to ZFC
00:51:03 <Sgeo> Same way that C is independent of ZF?
00:51:08 <oerjan> the fact that complexity theory relies so much on diagonalization just begs for the theory to get some of the undecidability that can entail, anyway...
00:51:22 <aliseiphone> Unprovable X in ZFC: X is true, no proof of X exists
00:51:46 <Sgeo> Bye aliseiphone
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00:52:10 <cpressey> ZFC+CollatzAlwaysHalts vs ZFC+CollatzSometimesLoops
00:52:15 <AnMaster> cpressey, isn't the continuum hypothesis unprovable in ZFC too?
00:52:38 <zzo38> Prove that Z is a valid proof of X
00:53:10 <Sgeo> Independence is a bit mind-bending
00:53:18 <zzo38> (For arbritrary Z and X)
00:53:41 <Sgeo> That would render it a matter of opinion, wouldn't it?
00:53:51 <Sgeo> Which seems... unintuitive
00:53:58 <Sgeo> But intuition has no place, I guess
00:54:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: to me, it's just that the actual _algorithms_ involved means there are such a large number of different ways it could be independent
00:54:52 <oerjan> and also that unlike the ZF+C and CH cases it doesn't make sense to just pick one possibility and try to use it
00:55:18 <Sgeo> oerjan, that's what confuses me a bit about P!=NP being independent
00:55:30 <oerjan> because that gives you no actual practical algorithm
00:55:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, I love non-constructive proofs. Because they make ehird mad
00:56:20 <Sgeo> ehird is actually a constructivist?
00:56:36 <oerjan> he loves the constructive math used in theorem provers
00:56:48 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1026
00:56:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, why can't we have non-constructive theorem provers?
00:57:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: you can have them talk _about_ non-constructive math, of course
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00:58:16 <oerjan> but the ones based on higher order functions and the curry-howard isomorphism naturally have constructive stuff at their base, and deals with it more naturally. iiuc.
00:58:27 <Sgeo> "If you'd proven constructivism, you could use it in a proof. Since you're not allowing it in proofs, you haven't proven it, and so you must destroy your own constructivist programming! I'm Prozac the Bear!"
00:58:34 <zzo38> Go to Special:Random on Wikipedia and make a esolang about whatever comes up
00:58:48 <oerjan> Sgeo: is that an actual T&R quote?
00:59:00 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1027
00:59:30 <AnMaster> I read a bit of it, horrible drawing. Worse than xkcd even
00:59:47 <Sgeo> That's why the Cornersheep turned evil
00:59:59 <Sgeo> Now _that's_ a lie
01:00:44 <zzo38> I voted the second one. But is there a command-line version of those polls, too?
01:01:14 <Sgeo> Open it in elinks?
01:01:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: the horrible drawing is even used as a meta-joke. all the time.
01:01:32 <zzo38> Sgeo: No that is not what I mean
01:01:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, it gets tedious very quickly
01:02:14 <zzo38> I mean like how sprunge has it you can send/receive file using that simple script, with curl
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01:04:36 <Sgeo> We were talking about Lumenos, which reminded me of Losethos
01:04:42 <Sgeo> Anyone want to talk about losethos>/
01:06:24 <Sgeo> http://www.losethos.com/
01:06:36 <AnMaster> zzo38, I repeat my questions: what polls
01:06:47 <Sgeo> AnMaster, the one in the topic
01:06:50 <zzo38> AnMaster: See the topic message
01:07:23 <oerjan> clearly it's a brand of cough drops that turned sentient
01:09:16 <AnMaster> okay even at the start of the page it fails
01:09:29 <AnMaster> you can not enter x86-64 mode without paging enabled
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01:11:03 <Sgeo> "As anyone will tell you,
01:11:03 <Sgeo> Linux is a just a kernel, but GNU/Linux is an operating system."
01:11:11 <Sgeo> I mean, some people are of that opinion, iirc
01:11:30 <AnMaster> of course, I don't use it like that either
01:11:45 <AnMaster> unless I'm trying to be very clear in the context of other userlands
01:12:32 <zzo38> I looked at some information about LoseThos now
01:13:57 <zzo38> I would have included a Forth system in it, but that's me....
01:14:37 <zzo38> I don't like some of the changes that LoseThos has difference from C
01:16:46 <AnMaster> Sgeo, about that OS, the author does seem reasonably skilled. Otherwise ey couldn't pull off such a compiler and so on
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01:20:40 <zzo38> augur: Do you mean vi improved?
01:20:54 <zzo38> I use it at Free Geek
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01:22:57 <augur> which vim do you use?
01:23:22 <zzo38> augur: Whichever one is included in Ubuntu LTSP, since that is what their computers use there
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01:24:44 <augur> im not sure how i feel about it
01:25:30 <zzo38> augur: I just use it because it is the one installed on there, they use Ubuntu and LTSP for everything there
01:25:54 <zzo38> Although they do not have the "mail" command installed
01:26:21 <augur> i like some of the features of it
01:26:34 <zzo38> I also like some of the features of vim
01:26:38 <augur> basically the editing featues
01:28:03 <zzo38> I would do some things differently, when I write Linux distribution I will probably write my own things in a way that is more better in my opinion instead. Like, one thing would be how the status bar is written, I would do it differently
01:28:57 <zzo38> Like, if you are recording a macro called "3" it will display "q3" in the status line, in insert mode it will display "i", it can display "v" for visual mode, and so on
01:29:08 <zzo38> And has position for each one so you can display multiples at once
01:29:12 <augur> i hate how in navigation mode the shit navigates by character tho
01:29:21 <augur> i find character navigation to be annoying
01:32:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, writing a new vim is a separate task from making a new linux distro
01:33:03 <Sgeo> At least, when I have to use a terminal editor
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01:34:43 <zzo38> AnMaster: It is, but if I write new Linux distro, I write a lot of new programs as part of that project too, because I can make it many differences, including new window manager, new text editor, new shell, and so on.
01:35:16 <AnMaster> new shell? I assume you will have the old one around still
01:35:24 <AnMaster> since stuff like configure scripts expect bash
01:36:44 <zzo38> AnMaster: I don't need configure scripts I can use some feature of CSPIDER (if it is a Enhanced CWEB program), or else enter some configure manually and differently, and then convert it
01:38:01 <AnMaster> zzo38, so your system won't be POSIX compatible then
01:38:49 <augur> how about textmate
01:39:21 <zzo38> AnMaster: I intend to make it enough POSIX compatible that most programs written for it in C (or other ways that compiles into a binary) will still run with little or no modifications, except possibly having to modify makefiles.
01:39:29 <augur> ok, alise isnt sane
01:39:48 <zzo38> Although the programs should still be changed to improve them to be better designed in the way of Arcane Linux.
01:40:09 <augur> theres a plugin for textmate called vimate
01:40:16 <augur> that adds on vi-like tools
01:40:30 <AnMaster> augur, just use emacs with viper-mode and be done with it :P
01:40:45 <augur> i really like textmate
01:40:50 <augur> but i like this modal stuff
01:41:04 <zzo38> AnMaster: I think I have also posted on this channel before, about the codenaming scheme I plan to use with Arcane Linux?
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01:41:55 <zzo38> AnMaster: The scheme is that the second version can be codenamed "Illimitable Illithid", the sixth version can be codenamed "Vancouver Island", and so on.
01:42:11 <zzo38> No relation to any other Linux distro codenaming scheme
01:42:32 <AnMaster> zzo38, hm? I don't see the logic in your scheme
01:42:51 <AnMaster> also "Vancouver Island" doesn't fit the obvious theme established by the first
01:42:55 <zzo38> AnMaster: And the first version can be codenamed "Initial". Now see if you can figure out its logic....
01:43:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, too tired and lazy to do so
01:43:16 <zzo38> If still not, I can give more clues even, or tell you the answer
01:43:47 <zzo38> OK, let's see if anyone else on here will figure it out
01:44:10 <oerjan> everyone gets it except AnMaster ;D
01:44:45 <oerjan> well everyone i've checked, anyway :D
01:45:02 <oerjan> although i think you mentioned it once before
01:45:23 <oerjan> well given that i'm the only other person i've checked...
01:45:25 <zzo38> I also mentioned that I mentioned it once before.
01:46:51 <zzo38> Does Sgeo figure it out?
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01:47:22 <Sgeo> I wasn't paying attention
01:48:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: Now you can read it and pay attention?
01:52:58 <zzo38> Some people might be confused because of "Vancouver Island" does not fit the theme established by the first, but actually it does fit the same theme, and in addition "Illimitable Illithid" is actually the second not the first
01:53:10 <zzo38> But that is OK if it is confusing, some people can figure it out or try to figure it out or not!
01:54:12 <zzo38> If you think there is an obvious theme established and then it doesn't fit, well, it is deceptive, it is not the obvious theme!
01:59:13 <zzo38> Please read this and write comment, especially if you play 4E: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/html/differences.html
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01:59:43 <zzo38> (I don't play 4E, I prefer 3.5E)
02:02:24 <zzo38> Icosahedral is the opposite of 4E do you think so?
02:04:05 <zzo38> Do you think "vegitabelation" is a good word for describing 4E?
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02:17:34 <augur> richard stallman, when he was younger, was a total hotty
02:25:37 <Gregor> Make his hair blond and you've got me :P
02:31:07 <Gregor> Probably neither, I actually have no idea what RMS looked like young :P
02:31:29 <Gregor> I was just applying the HAIR FALLACY (that all men with long hair look alike because that's their only distinguishing feature)
02:32:06 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, he had short hair. And no beard.
02:34:49 <augur> and was a total hotty.
02:41:20 <pikhq> More like total nerd.
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02:44:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Which is, of course, the best kind of dichotomy.
02:45:31 * Sgeo won't be watching Futurama as it airs tonight
02:45:58 <Sgeo> Anyone spoils me, I'll fake a call made from you to Mom's tech support
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04:01:47 <nooga> huh, do you guys ever sleep?
04:02:28 <nooga> i've been here almost whole day and it's like 5 in the morning here
04:02:35 <nooga> and you're still running
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04:04:22 <pikhq> They don't get sun there anyways; what does he care for circadian rhythm?
04:04:51 <nooga> in summer they've got everlasting day
04:04:59 <nooga> my brother complains about that
04:05:33 <oerjan> circadian rhythm means you only wake up every 17 years, right?
04:05:54 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:06:36 <nooga> i just got back from a party and i'm going straight to sleep
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04:15:26 <zzo38> What about 17 years?
04:16:22 <zzo38> O, I saw the log file now
04:16:37 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of that question, however.
04:22:10 <oerjan> and another pun goes *whoosh*, i see
04:23:04 <oerjan> (now it _does_ rely on you knowing a certain thing from biology)
04:41:02 <zzo38> I don't know biology much, I mostly study physics instead
04:41:33 <augur> guys, opinion needed
04:41:45 <augur> wisdom required tho likely to go unfound
04:43:20 <zzo38> I found that the negative array sizes trick in C is not only something I used, but now I also found it mentioned in section 5.10.1 of the GNU autoconf manual.
04:44:40 <augur> zzo38: unification
04:45:11 <zzo38> Unification of what?
04:45:45 <augur> if X and Y are variables, [1,X] = [Y,2] unifies with X = 1, Y = 2
04:46:31 <augur> [X,X] = [1,2] fails to unify
04:46:47 <zzo38> OK, I think I understand.
04:46:54 <augur> right? so, i have more of an opinion question than anything
04:47:11 <augur> if we define ~p to be the objects that *dont* unify with p
04:47:12 <zzo38> But in the second case, what about if you use the Perl6 feature to have multiple values at once (I think Perl6 does this?)?
04:47:31 <augur> so then 2 unifies with ~1
04:47:37 <augur> because ~1 means just "not 1"
04:47:44 <augur> anything except 1 will unify with ~1
04:48:00 <augur> ~X will unify with nothing, because everything unifies with X
04:48:01 <zzo38> Now I understand more better.
04:48:13 <augur> but heres the question, right
04:48:26 <augur> [1,2] = ~[2,3] will ofcourse work
04:48:39 <augur> [1,2] unifies with ~[2,3] because [1,2] does NOT unify with [2,3]
04:49:00 <augur> and similarly, [1,2] unifies with ~[2,X] because [1,2] cannot unify with [2,X]
04:49:37 <augur> [1,2] does definitely unify with [1,X]
04:50:41 <augur> but what about [1,X] ~[1,2]
04:50:54 <augur> [1,X] will unify with [1,2] yielding X = 2
04:51:06 <augur> so does that mean that [1,X] = ~[1,2] fails
04:51:19 <augur> or does it mean that it succeeds yielding X = ~2
04:51:32 <zzo38> Yes that is the difficult
04:52:48 <augur> i think in spirit the intent is that ~[1,2] should be anything but [1,2], right
04:52:54 <zzo38> I suppose you have to start at one thing at first and then break it in parts?
04:52:55 <augur> but dos that include variable bindings with it
04:53:10 <zzo38> Using only the valid ways of breaking the parts
04:53:11 <augur> well yes, i mean, i know how i'd get it to yield X = ~2
04:53:18 <augur> the issue is whether it SHOULD or not
04:54:56 <zzo38> I guess if ~[1,2] corresponds to anything other than [1,2] then [1,X] can unify [1,1] and [1,3] and [1,4] and so on, so it is ~2 but you should possibly ignore the cases [2,2] and [2,3] because those don't unify? I really don't know
04:55:19 <Gregor> Who controls esolangs.org? graue?
04:56:50 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't know. Does esolangs.org have a WHOIS service?
04:58:44 <zzo38> augur: Therefore it should be able to yield X = ~2 (I think)
05:00:01 <zzo38> In that case, also [1,X] = ~[2,2] means anything other than [2,2] so [1,X] = [1,2] is also OK and now it unifies everything, this way?
05:02:34 <augur> yeah, see, thats the tricky thing, right
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05:03:25 <augur> the solution i have for [1,X] = ~[1,2] is to turn ~[1,2] into the disjunction [~1,2] | [1,~2] | [~1,~2]
05:03:43 <zzo38> Yes, because if [1,X] = ~[1,2] yields X = ~2 then [1,X] = ~[2,2] should unify everything?
05:03:52 <augur> which would succeed as [1,X] = [1,~2]
05:04:19 <augur> but the same trick with ~[2,2] is to turn it into [~2,2] | [2,~2] | [~2,~2]
05:04:43 <augur> so [1,X] succeeds against [~2,2] and [~2,~2]
05:04:53 <augur> so X can be either 2 or ~2
05:05:01 <augur> which basically means anything at all
05:05:27 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I meant so it is OK
05:05:35 <zzo38> Do you need a special notation for this or is not needed?
05:08:49 <zzo38> I have posted first version of Enhanced CWEB by now. Enhanced CWEB version 0.1
05:10:37 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/
05:10:57 <zzo38> You can tell me if is good, comment, or any feature suggestion, question, etc
05:11:04 <zzo38> Or complain, if you really want to
05:11:32 <zzo38> augur: Have you ever used CWEB?
05:11:42 <zzo38> Now it is Enhanced CWEB, it is the improved version!
05:13:35 <zzo38> If you have a program to print DVI files, you can just print out the DVI files to read it
05:16:02 <augur> ive never heard of cweb before x3
05:17:36 <augur> well, a version of it
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05:18:47 <zzo38> Then probably you can print a DVI file? There is one new file called CSPIDER that is the new file I added (although I have also made many modifications to the other files). Please tell me if you have any comment about it.
05:18:56 <zzo38> What version of it do you have?
05:20:04 <zzo38> (Please note that .ZIP is not a tape archive, so you have to create a directory first before expanding, unlike tape archives where the directory will be created automatically)
05:20:33 <zzo38> CWEB is a system that does various things, one thing it does is allows you to print out the programs using TeX.
05:20:41 <zzo38> But it has other features too.
05:20:44 <Gregor> zzo38: ... that is neither a property of ZIPs nor TARs.
05:20:54 <Gregor> That's just a convention.
05:21:04 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, I know it is just a convention.
05:21:35 <zzo38> What I mean is that the convention for ZIPs is that you should create the directory yourself, while the convention for tape archives is that you don't need to, because the tape archive will do it for you.
05:22:14 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article for CWEB has a list of features (I wrote the list of features): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CWEB But Enhanced CWEB has additional features that are not listed on Wikipedia.
05:23:02 <Gregor> Welp. Time to install Debian on my phone.
05:23:25 <zzo38> One of the new features in Enhanced CWEB is metamacros, although there are others, too.
05:24:53 <zzo38> (The codes for processing metamacros is in common.w (and common.dvi for printing), while the file cspider.w uses a few metamacros.)
05:25:45 <zzo38> Now do you understand it a bit more?
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06:30:30 <Gregor> Android has chroot but not mkdir.
06:31:25 <Gregor> Ohhh, it's in a weird path.
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06:45:44 <Gregor> Gettin' Debian on my phoooooone 8-D
06:47:22 <Sgeo> What about Win95?
06:48:27 <Gregor> That's only been done in an emulator.
07:13:05 * Sgeo deliberately does not invite Gregor or any other #esoteric er to an event
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07:41:15 <Flonk> good morning everybody :)
07:41:29 <fizzie> And on the other hand: at least my phone has Debian on a Debian. (In a matter of fashion, anyway.)
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10:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> He would be an ideal candidate for a Halloween costume.
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12:18:30 <AnMaster> vrml. How does one view it? For historical computing purposes.
12:19:08 <AnMaster> tools available to me are: opengenera, ubuntu 7.10, ubuntu 10.04, current arch linux
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12:30:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's like HTML but for 3D. :p
12:30:46 <fizzie> It's also pretty 1990s.
12:34:22 <fizzie> A technically-speaking human-writable ASCII-based syntax for describing 3D scenes with the usual sort of primitives, with some hyperlinking stuff and simplish even-scripting stuff added, meant to be viewed in a browser.
12:35:58 <fizzie> They also made a XML-based successor, X3D. I'm not sure if it was ever used much.
12:36:09 <fizzie> And there's some more recent competitors in the same space.
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13:20:44 <alise> This table wobbles!
13:20:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Alack alack alack?
13:21:37 <alise> It has only two, and they support the other; wobble wobble wobble. How does one work on this? I recall doing it on previous weekends.
13:21:55 <alise> So, I'm doing cpp lists.
13:23:29 <alise> I dunno. It has two metal bars on the floor horizontally.
13:23:35 <alise> And the whole bar curves up and supports the table.
13:23:39 <alise> It's for putting over your bed, say.
13:24:24 <alise> Agh, what is up with my mouse?
13:24:29 <alise> Clicks aren't being recognised.
13:24:31 <alise> Well, they are, but wrongly
13:25:32 <alise> list.h:18:15: error: macro "true" passed 10 arguments, but takes just 2
13:25:32 <alise> list.h:18:15: error: macro "tl_" requires 3 arguments, but only 1 given
13:25:32 <alise> list.h:18:15: error: macro "hd_" requires 3 arguments, but only 1 given
13:26:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hey how did you invoke cpp?
13:26:23 <alise> the #define f(x) f_(x) trick isn't working for me
13:27:10 <alise> Gimme your transcripted list.h, please?
13:27:45 <alise> "Erik entered Dalhousie University in Canada at the age of 12, and completed his bachelor's degree when only 14"
13:27:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Did.
13:28:17 <alise> Me too. Hm. So my code has a bug.
13:28:40 <alise> ha, I defined comments in the language
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13:29:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's not standard.
13:30:15 <alise> I'm writing in Industry Standard C Preprocessor.
13:30:32 <alise> cpressey: It's after noon.
13:31:01 <cpressey> time is all like relative and shit man, especially THIS early
13:32:03 <alise> how can you be awake at such a time
13:32:22 <alise> why can't america be like china and adopt a single timezone
13:32:55 <alise> then life would be simple
13:32:56 <cpressey> couldn't sleep, have work stuff (a release schedule) that should have been done yesterday, but due to "fun" in testing, it wasn't
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13:34:18 <alise> why do people who like programming work as programmers?
13:34:26 <cpressey> alise: for whatever it's worth, i think cpp can be shown tc. i hold out hope, anyway.
13:34:51 <cpressey> i would go for the cyclic tag system
13:35:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: programming-as-a-job is widely recognised to be the most kafkaesque, soul-draining sludge of time there is
13:35:01 <fizzie> There's nothing standard as to what a "preprocessor" separately invoked must do (since it doesn't need to be a separate part), but /* ... */ comments need to be replaced by a single space character before preprocessing directives and macro-expansion in any standard C implementation.
13:35:13 <alise> cpressey: i'm developing "standard conveniences" first to explore the space
13:35:33 <alise> fizzie: Well, whatever; rem() is funner.
13:35:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah.
13:37:25 <cpressey> i been thinking about the difference between "true but unprovable" and "independent" and now i hate the universe
13:38:05 <alise> cpressey: if we consider T the set of truths in some theory:
13:38:32 <alise> and P the set of (statement,proof_text)s in the theory
13:38:54 <alise> truebutunprovable(x) := x in T /\ ~(exists p such that (x,p) in P)
13:39:13 <alise> independent(x) := x not in T /\ ~x not in T (ergo T with added axiom of x or ~x are both consistent)
13:39:48 <cpressey> say you have an axiom system z. say x is true but unprovable in z. then z+!x is consistent, even though x is true. therefore i hate the universe
13:40:28 <alise> cpressey: well true but unprovable is of course terribly confusing.
13:40:36 <alise> Quadrescence: i do prolog?
13:40:53 <alise> Quadrescence: what prolog in particular have I done to make you say that?
13:41:16 <alise> how do you even know i do prolog
13:41:22 <alise> i only do it as a total newbie btw
13:41:31 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Look, a 2160-bit memory module: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_memory.jpg
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13:41:50 <fizzie> (That's 2160 bits as in total capacity, not bus width or anything else.)
13:42:19 <alise> "Please Do Not Touch"
13:42:23 <alise> I hope that was on the original computer.
13:43:00 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The article says that the whole 1000-word memory subsystem (7 of those units) had its own walk-in room, so presumably not especially small.
13:43:33 <alise> Quadrescence: Well, I don't really do it any more. :P
13:43:52 * Phantom_Hoover is very happy that his wild guess as to the technical name was correct
13:44:18 <alise> Quadrescence: Pah, Edison.
13:44:23 <fizzie> That UNIVAC tank is sequential-access, of course.
13:45:15 <fizzie> (Or random-access if you don't mind a bit of waiting, but..)
13:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, you could use that for pipes, come to think if it.
13:46:31 <fizzie> Because you want your conceptual pipes involve real pipes somewhere?
13:46:45 <fizzie> "It's not a pipe unless fluids are involved."
13:47:47 <alise> list.h:16:29: warning: __VA_ARGS__ can only appear in the expansion of a C99 variadic macro
13:48:17 <cpressey> love the word "variadic", it sounds so scientific-y.
13:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, we're using the same version and code, aren't we?
13:48:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not code.
13:48:41 <alise> #define tl_(d,h,...) __VA_ARGS__
13:48:51 <alise> How is that NOT a variadic macro, GNU Stupid Crapshoot
13:49:11 <alise> it's in my rem line
13:49:46 <cpressey> Quadrescence: ironically, it sounds less so
13:49:53 <alise> you can't ... boycott a project
13:50:34 <cpressey> if everyone boycotts gcc they will starve... for attention
13:53:14 <alise> gcc is crap but Quadrescence has gone crazy
13:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, other than the fact that its assembler is stupid.
13:53:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: terrible, huge, huge code (over 100,000 lines -- how many bugs do you want to bet are in there);
13:53:39 <alise> simply inferior to well-designed compilers like pcc and clang
13:53:50 <alise> it's a huge crapshoot from the 80s
13:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, is there anything mainstream that you *don't* think is crap?
13:54:07 <alise> "cpp -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -undef -nostdinc -P"
13:54:09 <alise> cpp the interpreter!
13:54:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes; but note that my opinion on gcc is not unusual
13:54:21 <alise> and i think you'll find most competent people share it
13:54:29 <alise> theo de raat does, in case you care about him
13:54:33 <cpressey> i am fascinated by how the mainstream attracts crap and vice versa
13:54:35 <alise> FreeBSD, too, want to move away from gcc
13:54:50 <alise> and not just for licensing reasons.
13:54:56 <cpressey> most of the bsds would rather not have gpl'ed stuff in their base
13:54:58 <alise> gcc needs to die a painful death. but meh.
13:55:03 <alise> cpressey: but they have technical reasons too
13:55:08 <alise> nooga: clang is a C compiler for LLVM.
13:55:11 <alise> I mentioned clang.
13:55:24 <alise> OK, so it's my conditional that's failing.
13:55:56 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, denouncing everything as crap gets boring after a while.
13:56:23 <alise> "You criticise a lot of things! Therefore you should stop making criticisms because I believe excess criticisms make future ones incorrect."
13:56:40 <alise> Would you have told Sturgeon to stop being such a pessimist?
13:57:30 <alise> But listen, my opinion on gcc is nothing radical.
13:57:35 <alise> If you actually studied it you would agree.
13:58:39 <alise> It's horribly architectured. The code is written badly and it is very, very long with lots of unchecked possibilities for bugs. It's crap; what the heck do I need to elaborate on?
13:58:59 <alise> It's coded badly, it's buggy, it's huge, it's slow, it gives useless error messages, and it doesn't optimise well at all.
13:59:14 <alise> These flaws are not present in other compilers like pcc and clang.
13:59:26 <alise> Age is the only excuse; and gcc has had plenty of time to get into this century.
13:59:37 <cpressey> yet the market determines TRUTH and pcc and clang are MARKET FAILURES!!1!
13:59:43 <alise> The best thing it could do with its time is to die quietly.
14:00:10 <alise> Quadrescence: but dude, C99 is, like, impossible.
14:00:15 <alise> It has complex numbers and shit.
14:00:32 <cpressey> Quadrescence: my sentiment exactly
14:00:34 <alise> They're complex, dude.
14:00:43 <alise> "And what has he done with said knowledge? I'm waiting to see the list of OSS projects he's working on." -- reddit moron about the guy who got a bachelor's at 14
14:01:05 <cpressey> Not impossible, out of place. What part of "systems construction language" does C99 not understand?
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14:01:17 <alise> I was joking wrt complexes.
14:01:25 <alise> I don't mind having complex numbers in the language although C99 did do them terribly.
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14:02:43 <Quadrescence> alise: c99 did a lot terribly to be honest. Like booleans are a god damn hack
14:03:02 <alise> the committee are retards
14:03:14 * Phantom_Hoover has come to the conclusion that his internet connection is nondeterministic.
14:03:23 <Quadrescence> C89 is pretty ok. It is not the best by today's standards but It's The Best We Got
14:03:53 <cpressey> <alise> "And what has he done..." <-- wow, i find that surprisingly offensive in a way i cannot readily describe
14:04:35 <alise> there's a bunch of people like that on reddit
14:04:41 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: really? try downloading from all sites at once
14:04:42 <alise> seriously, they don't care about you unless you work on FOSS.
14:04:53 <alise> the worst thing about FOSS is everyone who likes FOSS.
14:05:04 <alise> nooga: yes, indeed
14:05:16 <alise> but i was using conventional compilers to illustrate my point
14:05:25 <alise> nooga: 2c is the manpage :P
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14:08:06 <alise> anyone here any good at cpp?
14:08:26 <cpressey> "good" is not the word I'd use. I wrote macros that pasted tokens together once!
14:09:28 <alise> I'm not even sure.
14:10:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1067011.txt?key=bxdsdyraapk8c9zshrrwcw
14:10:17 <alise> see the last two lines, compare their outputs
14:12:04 <alise> The second line should yield true,c,true,d,false,nil,nil.
14:12:11 <alise> I don't see how the first line works but the second doesn't.
14:13:25 <alise> I think it's because cpp keeps track of what was typed in and what was expanded
14:13:27 <alise> so as not to recursively expand
14:14:35 <cpressey> oh, wait, yeah, cpp doesn't recursively expand
14:14:37 <alise> cpressey: you're grumpy like me when you don't use caps
14:14:43 <alise> cpressey: which makes my conditionals not work
14:14:47 <alise> back to the drawing board for them
14:14:53 <cpressey> i think the causality might be backwards there re caps, but yes.
14:15:13 <alise> causality doesn't exist don't you know
14:15:53 <alise> "Screw you! I want my fucking A following B!"
14:16:37 <cpressey> maybe define tltl(x,y,...) to do it? you should only need a fixed number of tl's in any tc proof
14:16:54 <cpressey> well not ANY tc proof. you know what i mean
14:18:07 <alise> cpressey: i'm thinking for things like map
14:18:11 <alise> which would suggest power
14:20:23 <cpressey> yes, but... recursion is out, it looks like.
14:21:41 <alise> Yes; I gathered that. But I have no recursion, even!
14:21:53 <alise> In fact this restriction of cpp is the stupidest thing ever. I can think of no reason for it.
14:22:17 <cpressey> Recently, like in the past few months, cygwin wants to install three dozen new packages every time I upgrade. Including 'bc' and 'ed' and 'libglitz'. The deps for something I have installed are clearly hosed.
14:22:44 <cpressey> alise: um, well. it's nice when you don't have to worry about your macros not terminating
14:23:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I use it, but ... no. Linus is one of my heroes, he's a great guy. But Linux is another entry in the Unix tradition. And it has some braindamage (usually by people other than Linus).
14:23:34 <alise> cpressey: at expense of fucked up, barely explainable behaviour ... who writes macros complex enough that they'd recurse without this anyway? I mean, what?
14:23:43 <alise> cpp is instant anyway, if it takes more than a second on normal macros you'd know you have a loop.
14:24:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I don't. The original Unix was cool, and Plan 9, the successor to Unix by the same people, is genius; but modern Unix is, well, a crapshoot.
14:24:20 <cpressey> alise: hell, I dunno. who writes normal C code that relies on wrapping around at the bit size? ask Gregor.
14:24:20 <alise> And no, I'm not merely a malcontent; I just took a good, long, hard look at things and regret it a bit because I'm basically an outcast now.
14:24:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complexity, bugginess, non-orthogonality, unpredictability, lack of unified coherent interface to anything (Plan 9 rectifies this), years of historical cruft...
14:24:53 <alise> ...makes a decent UI impossible...
14:25:00 <alise> cpressey: anyone who writes a BF interpreter? :P
14:25:02 <cpressey> alise: You've read the Worse is Better essay(s), I take it?
14:25:16 <alise> And I don't believe modern Unix follows Worse is Better.
14:25:21 <alise> It follows Better is Worse.
14:26:11 <alise> But I'm straying dangerously into my old zealot turf here; so I'll quiet down about it for a bit. Probably.
14:26:34 <cpressey> i will meditate on BiW. i probably know what you mean.
14:27:56 <alise> cpressey: Modern Unix is "MIT-style code" -- overcomplicated error-checking monstrosities -- over a New Jersey base; so it's bloated but in the end it fails hard.
14:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I will try not to get angry over things that work adequately for my purposes.
14:28:18 <alise> It's a "perfect" implementation of a quick-and-dirty philosophy, it just doesn't work ... it's not very explainable. Better is Worse. You know what i mean.
14:28:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not angry. I just don't like it. Linux does make me angry, though; you know, when it doesn't work, which is often.
14:29:35 <cpressey> alise: Yes. I think I've been BiW'ed silly working with Python, actually.
14:29:58 <alise> I dislike Python but tend to bury that anger because it's useful to glue shit together on Unix.
14:30:01 <cpressey> We're going to start with naff, then get it RIGHT!
14:30:08 <alise> It /is/ terribly naff.
14:30:17 <alise> Naff is a very good way to describe a lot of things in today's computing world.
14:30:30 <alise> Sure, it [...], but... do you really want to?
14:30:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Didn't ever been none Golden Age. Always been shit. Probably always will be.
14:32:02 <cpressey> I think there is a distinction between beauty and efficacy. Things that "get the job done" tend to be ugly. And ugly things tend to work badly *in the long run*. But most people don't have a significant amount of foresight, and they will defend the ugly things that "get the job done" tooth and nail. In business, especially.
14:32:05 <alise> I do but it's all ideas, nothing concrete. However, there are shards of perfection present in many things that as a whole are not; and together they form a fucked-up collage that nevertheless represents something perfect, if you can make the glue stick.
14:33:11 <alise> You know, when I don't think about this shit I'm positive enough.
14:34:02 <alise> You know, I never had cpressey down as the grumpy cynic everything-sucks type.
14:34:19 <alise> I always assumed he'd be the happy-camper-on-LSD-ah-it-sucks-so-what-i-just-make-cool-stuff type.
14:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I would be that if it weren't for the LSD, cool stuff and the camping. And the happy.
14:36:05 <alise> And the cool stuff?
14:37:55 <cpressey> I've gone back and forth during my life, actually.
14:38:25 <alise> cpressey: I take it most of your esolang work was done in the happy-camper phase :-P
14:38:30 <alise> Hey, that means there's hope for me to rebound yet.
14:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, I have decided to break into my friend's house and steal his father's old BBC Micro.
14:38:58 <cpressey> I've had periods where I've been extremely depressed about how much everything sucks, and I've had periods where I've not cared at all and was just elated that the universe was so weird.
14:39:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, I have only a vague idea where he lives.
14:39:25 <alise> cpressey: Hell, I don't get depressed about it. It's just fucking computers. Or do you mean /everything/ everything?
14:39:38 <cpressey> And yes, most esolang work occurs during the latter half of that cycle.
14:39:53 <cpressey> Yes, not just computers. Everything. Systems.
14:39:56 <alise> Are you certain you're not bipolar? :P
14:40:22 <alise> Sorry, that was nasty.
14:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I know which part of Edinburgh his flat is in and I know that it's above a Chinese restaurant.
14:44:03 <alise> "It's in the part of Scotland where it usually rains. Oh, and it's next to a DFS with a sale on; you can't miss it."
14:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a vague idea as to the name of the Chinese restaraunt.
14:47:14 <alise> http://www.dangermouse.net/media/memento.html
14:47:21 <alise> David Morgan-Mar watches Memento for the first time. Backwards.
14:47:29 <fizzie> Speaking of why CPP won't recursively expand macros, it's because it's forbidden to: "If the name of the macro being replaced is found during this scan [after the first round of substitution] of the replacement list -- it is not replaced. Furthermore, if any nested replacements encounter the name of the macro being replaced, it is not replaced. These nonreplaced macro name preprocessing tokens are no longer available for further replacement even if they are lat
14:47:30 <fizzie> er (re)examined in contexts in which that macro name preprocessing token would otherwise have been replaced."
14:47:39 <alise> It's a stupid restriction.
14:48:03 <fizzie> Well, you wouldn't want to have scary LOOPS in the preprocessor.
14:48:03 <AnMaster> alise, btw you said something about cpp and TC. Got anywhere with that?
14:48:16 <AnMaster> iirc it is possibly TC with recursive includes or such
14:48:31 <alise> AnMaster: I'm "working on it".
14:48:32 <cpressey> alise: I can't be certain, I suppose, but I strongly doubt it. Seems to be tied much more strongly to what's happening in my world and how I look at it.
14:48:41 <alise> I'm trying to define lists; run into a roadblock but I think I can fix it.
14:48:47 <AnMaster> alise, your way doesn't include recursive includes?
14:48:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Who /doesn't/?
14:49:09 <alise> cpressey: I try and stay positive. :P
14:49:11 <AnMaster> alise, do you do recursive includes or not when making it TC?
14:49:41 <alise> AnMaster: I will, yes.
14:49:46 <alise> I haven't got a proof yet.
14:49:48 <alise> Just a strong hunch.
14:51:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: None? Preprocessors are a pretty pointless concept :-P
14:51:56 <alise> M4 is more a template language from hell.
14:51:59 <alise> Anyway, cpp works fine for C.
14:52:59 <AnMaster> alise, what about lisp macros. Not really pre-processor as such thoughh
14:54:08 <alise> M4 is a good esolang, not a good lang.
14:54:20 <alise> What Phantom_Hoover said
14:54:43 <alise> how do you disable indentation in cpp mode?
14:54:47 <cpressey> Surprsed I haven't seen something esosomething implemented in that combo
14:54:59 <alise> like when I press (
14:56:25 <fizzie> Just M-x fundamental-mode. :p
14:57:44 <alise> But keeping syntax highlighting. Some electric thing.
14:58:25 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, they're preprocessing done right. <-- not a separate pre-processor though. Runs in the compiler iirc
14:58:25 <fizzie> Perhaps you could just set c-basic-offset to 0.
14:58:27 * Phantom_Hoover always wonders why Lisp did things right then everyone went and got it wrong for the next few decades.
14:58:36 <fizzie> (It could still line up things, I guess.)
15:00:37 <Quadrescence> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
15:01:10 <alise> <AnMaster> on the AST I think ;; no ast, just the concrete tree; the lists
15:01:24 <Quadrescence> PHANTOM_HOOVER: READ THE ABOVE LINK, AFTER, READ http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
15:01:45 <alise> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
15:02:09 <alise> it's just the qi guy whining about how programmers are so misunderstood then giving it the label "bipolar" and thereby furthering the continued uselessness of psychological terminology.
15:02:25 <alise> it's shit and if you believe it you're another lisp elitist that's full of themselves
15:02:34 <alise> the yegge article is good however.
15:03:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you fail
15:03:02 <alise> cpressey: a powerful type system thing grafted onto common lisp
15:03:08 <alise> cpressey: it has a turing complete type system without dependent typing
15:03:15 <alise> which is hilariously fuck-uppedly pointless
15:03:36 <Quadrescence> alise: but really, that article is pretty accurate. Maybe not for all lisp programmers
15:03:59 <Quadrescence> I can't remember the last time I've seen a complete, good, full piece of working lisp
15:04:36 <alise> I object to the way it is written and the way the author perceives the immense genius of Lispers. I also dislike the blatant misuse of the term "bipolar", which is unacceptable.
15:04:51 <alise> The author is also a bad writer.
15:05:36 <alise> Quadrescence: I just sort of wish he'd render "it's" or "let's" properly at least once.
15:06:01 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: what, saying someone has a medical condition
15:06:10 <Quadrescence> and then recommending taking an anti-psychotic medication
15:06:24 <Quadrescence> honestly i do not think saying someone has a medical condition is an insult
15:07:14 <alise> Quadrescence: Considering that I'm wrongly in an institution and they tried to push meds on me...
15:07:26 <alise> I'd say that if I were the kind of person to get offended by that, I'd rip your eyeballs out.
15:07:30 <alise> I am not, however.
15:08:27 <Quadrescence> alise: you just think you're wrongly in an institution
15:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's due to my early experiments with mind control.
15:10:06 <nooga> jdijdijidjdijeijd ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :D~
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15:13:15 <ais523> <comex> I've used it as a variable occasionally. Don't ask why
15:13:23 <ais523> comex: I'm afraid I'll have to ask why
15:13:29 <ais523> although it should be a safe question in /this/ channel
15:18:19 <cpressey> Is Qi a TC type system as in, "write a program in this DSL which implements the type checker you want"?
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15:19:46 <alise> cpressey: sort of.
15:19:50 <alise> cpressey: a bit more infrastructure than that.
15:20:52 <alise> "Wikileaks To Leak 5000 Open Source Java Projects With All That Private/Final Bullshit Removed" --Steve Yegge
15:21:01 <alise> [[According to the Wikileaks press release, millions of Java source files have been run through a Perl script that removes all 'final' keywords except those required for hacking around the 15-year-old Java language's "fucking embarrassing lack of closures."]]
15:21:08 <cpressey> The only thing I /really/ don't like about LISP (and Scheme) is destructive update.
15:21:18 <alise> [[Longtime Java programmer Ronnie Lloyd of Austin, TX is offended by the thought of people instantiating his private classes. "It's just common sense," said Lloyd, who is 37. "If I buy you a house and put the title in your name, but I mark some of the doors 'Employees Only', then you're not allowed to open those doors, even though it's your house. Because it's really my house, even though I gave it to you to live in."]]
15:21:25 <alise> cpressey: So clearly we need purely functional Lisp.
15:21:30 <alise> Also, it's Lisp. Has been for years. Not LISP :P
15:21:53 <ais523> alise: I have quite an interesting view about final, actually
15:22:16 <ais523> I used to think it was an awful idea; nowadays, I'm beginning to conclude that it's correct on anything which isn't specced to be extend-safe
15:22:19 <alise> Next article: Eclipse Sits On Man's Couch, Breaks It
15:22:19 <alise> New Hampshire programmer Freddie Cardenas, 17, describes the incident: "We invited Eclipse over for dinner and drinks. Eclipse sat down on our new couch and there was this loud crack and it broke in half. Those timbers had snapped like fuckin' matchsticks. Then my mom started crying, and Eclipse started crying, and I ran and hid in my bedroom." Read more]]
15:22:23 <alise> Yegge is an awesome writer.
15:23:24 <alise> cpressey: Maybe your destiny is to create a purely-functional Lisp that doesn't suck.
15:23:45 <cpressey> alise: Pixley is a purely-functional Lisp that's not nearly big enough to suck
15:24:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that this is because I avoid Java like the plague.
15:24:08 <cpressey> People will complain about the lack of, oh, I don't know. Numbers? though.
15:24:27 <alise> cpressey: It sucks. :P
15:24:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe it'll make more sense if you read it: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/07/wikileaks-to-leak-5000-open-source-java.html
15:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> But things like pattern-matching don't seem very nice in Lisp...
15:25:12 <cpressey> alise: It can implement itself in a couple of hundred lines of code! How can it suck! What else would you possibly use a Lisp for!
15:25:29 <cpressey> Aren't questions which end in exclamation points obnoxious!
15:25:39 <alise> cpressey: link me to pixley again?
15:25:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I am, but I never poke around inside Java projets.
15:25:49 <alise> also, you can implement a subset of scheme in itself in like 50 lines
15:25:55 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/doc/website_pixley.html
15:25:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I am?
15:26:23 <cpressey> My implementation of Pixley in Pixley is 140 lines.
15:27:00 <nooga> "They have no right to do this. Open Source does not mean the source is somehow 'open'." what?
15:27:01 <alise> cpressey: I've become a bit of an infix whore, tbh.
15:27:08 <alise> nooga: hurr i don't get blatant satire hurr
15:27:17 <alise> For the precise meanings of each of these forms, please refer to the Revised5 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme.
15:27:29 <alise> cpressey: you mean the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme.
15:28:01 <cpressey> The <sup>5</sup> doesn't indicate such?
15:29:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nothing much
15:29:17 <alise> cpressey: http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/icbins/icbins.tar.gz Scheme-subset-sideset self-compiler and interpreter in 10 pages
15:29:26 <alise> cpressey: http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/ichbins.tar.gz the beautiful 6-page version with just the compiler
15:29:28 <alise> compiler to C that is
15:30:11 <alise> cpressey: I'm pretty sure I like infix too much to ever truly like a "traditional" Lisp, though.
15:31:08 <alise> So you're in Cupertino?
15:32:06 <cpressey> I'm against Lisp compilers for some reason
15:32:27 <alise> cpressey: You move around a lot.
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15:32:27 <nooga> it's like you were working for apple?
15:32:34 <alise> nooga: I doubt that highly.
15:33:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Java programmers are similar to that article.
15:33:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Less blatant about it, of course.
15:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I did work experience in a computing department that used primarily Java,
15:34:16 <ais523> alise: my objection to someone removing all the final and private from my code is "now you can't tell what can be overriden/called without being randomly breaking-changed, and what can be"
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15:35:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I teach Java for a living
15:35:40 <alise> to poor, innocent souls
15:35:44 <ais523> I think it's a really bad language to teach people as their first language
15:35:45 <alise> then harvests what's left of their brains
15:36:04 <ais523> but hey, I'm being paid to teach that rather than something saner
15:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if my school is anything to judge by, he's a bit skinny..
15:36:09 <nooga> you're worse than Hitler then
15:36:13 <ais523> and hopefully it'll increase the average quality of Java amongst graduates
15:36:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat
15:36:51 <cpressey> C++ is an order of magnitude worse than Java.
15:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> In the top computing class *two* people could program at all well.
15:37:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the students here are on average rather better than that
15:37:25 <alise> grr, how do you typeset the proper prime character in TeX? $\prime$ looks weird
15:37:28 <alise> for a height, like 5'4"
15:37:37 <ais523> although you still get several who just do not get programming, and a few more who can program but don't get OO
15:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if my school is anything to judge by, he's a bit skinny..
15:37:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh i see
15:37:48 <alise> but i never said he ate them!
15:39:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not nearly as bad as Java
15:39:15 <ais523> although I think it's a bit large for use as a teaching language
15:39:16 <alise> $^\prime$ is... close...
15:39:19 <nooga> students sould learn: C, then ruby, then haskell
15:39:23 <ais523> and object.prototype, etc, is likely to be confusing
15:39:50 <ais523> (although I hear mac-IE is a lot saner than windows-IE)
15:39:55 <alise> ah, 6$'$1$''$ does it about right.
15:40:48 <alise> my lord, Minion is beautiful
15:40:54 <alise> I just need something to typeset in it...
15:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently you have a sense used only for being weird about typography.
15:42:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you should see actual typophiles.
15:42:29 <alise> they live every moment for it.
15:42:37 <alise> I just appreciate nice typefaces.
15:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I share a world with people who are even more obsessed with typography than you‽
15:43:03 <alise> I am not obsessed. Jeez.
15:43:14 <alise> I have an interest, like you probably do about many things
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15:47:06 <Flonk> Id never pay money for a font D:
15:47:07 <ais523> alise: this reminds me, I've been meaning to ask something
15:47:14 <ais523> what are good monotyped fonts that are standard on the Mac?
15:47:25 <cpressey> ais523: What would be a good learning language? Lua?
15:47:38 <ais523> cpressey: Lua wouldn't be bad, actually
15:48:08 <ais523> I suppose it depends on what field you're going into; they taught electronic engineers (my first degree) asm and C simultaneously first, which worked well
15:48:15 <cpressey> ais523: Does this help a bit? http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html
15:48:46 <oklopol> "<ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I teach Java for a living" <<< just general java or something more specific using java?
15:48:52 <oklopol> well i guess you teach java if you say you teach java
15:48:53 <cpressey> Establishes a lower bound at Courier New + Lucida Console :/
15:49:16 <ais523> oklopol: when teaching, you don't have much of a chance to do anything particularly specific
15:49:56 <cpressey> And I have to say I'm not *so* down on Java as a production language. Its culture is much worse than the language itself.
15:50:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not really, it's mostly reflex
15:50:27 <ais523> and Java is not an awful language, although it's a bad first language, and tends to be overengineered
15:50:53 <ais523> semicolons aren't soul-crushing
15:51:13 <ais523> unless syntax is deliberately obstructive (/me glares at most esolangs), it's normally pretty much irrelevant
15:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm referring to students' inability to remember them.
15:51:56 <ais523> students tend to be quite good with boilerplate
15:52:00 <ais523> especially when using NetBeans
15:53:03 <oklopol> "<ais523> oklopol: when teaching, you don't have much of a chance to do anything particularly specific" <<< it was surprising to me that a phd student was teaching a basic course, but i guess they need to harvest everyone for those
15:53:53 <ais523> oklopol: actually, it's not that surprising; basic courses are all that they can trust mere phd students on
15:54:01 <ais523> most courses need actual lecturers
15:54:25 <oklopol> yes i realized that right after saying that
15:55:17 <oklopol> phd students don't teach courses often here, but if they do it's usually a course they actually ask permission to give (i know exactly one instance of this)
15:55:25 <ais523> and even then, I'm not the main teacher, just take tutorials and do marking
15:55:27 <oklopol> which means they are everything but basic courses
15:55:58 <oklopol> that's almost exclusively done by phd ppl here
15:56:41 <alise> ais523: the default one on the mac is good
15:56:43 <alise> or Monaco, the old default
15:56:46 <alise> I forget the name of the new default
15:56:54 <ais523> ugh, it's names I need to know
15:57:07 <ais523> trying to work around a bug with jettyplay, where it sometimes chooses a ridiculously inappropriate font
15:57:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: firstly, Minion is a typeface, not a font; secondly, $26 is damn cheap for a font. Besides, it comes with Adobe Reader.
15:57:21 <alise> Probably using it violates the license, but who gives a shit apart from ais523?
15:57:36 <ais523> and obviously it needs a monotype one because ttyrecs assume monotype
15:57:42 <alise> Finally, fuck no it does not look the same as other fonts.
15:58:34 <alise> ais523: Menlo; it's a modified DejaVu Sans Mono
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15:58:48 <alise> ais523: only on 10.6 and above
15:58:50 <alise> fallback to Monaco
15:58:54 <ais523> yep, that's what I plan to do
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15:59:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well, to most people all typefaces look the same.
15:59:37 <alise> however, people will notice that a well-typeset book is easy to read. the more discerning will note that it looks good.
15:59:42 <alise> mostly it's subconscious.
15:59:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: can you tell Garamond from Baskerville?
15:59:54 <ais523> I can tell them apart, to some extent (although Arial/Helvetica normally needs a blatantly different letter like the R to tell); normally I don't care, though
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16:01:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: TNR?
16:01:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, yes, non-monospace is an offence in the eyes of oklo.
16:01:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In its common Windows incarnation, yes; and by now everyone's eyes are dulled to it, and nothing interesting is ever set in it.
16:01:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: When it was designed, it was great.
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16:02:47 <ais523> alise: Times New Roman was probably released a bit early
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16:02:52 <ais523> it looks awful at 640x480 resolution
16:03:03 <ais523> which was standard for Windows 3.1, where it first became popular
16:03:10 <alise> ais523: excuse me, Times New Roman was released in 1931. :-)
16:03:17 <ais523> alise: well, of course
16:03:17 <alise> Windows' font of it is and always has been terrible.
16:03:20 <ais523> I mean, the Microsoft versoin
16:03:52 <alise> OS X's "Times" font is much better.
16:04:00 <alise> It's still fundamentally bland, though; you can't really do anything about that.
16:04:15 <ais523> bland isn't bad for the default font everyone uses for everything
16:04:32 <alise> Yeah, but dammit, Word could default to Palatino or something.
16:04:41 <ais523> sorry, I had a sudden flashback to that feature of old versions of Word which let you put animated sparkly shapes behind all the text you wrote
16:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, has anyone else read the GNU standardisation info page?
16:05:12 <alise> no, and I hope never to.
16:06:40 <ais523> is this of the same standard as the Enigma video trailer?
16:06:58 <ais523> (at least they've actually uploaded it to YouTube now and embedded it, rather than providing a .flv download)
16:08:02 <ais523> I forget the exact link, but http://enigma-game.org is the homepage
16:08:10 <ais523> there's probably a link to the trailer on there somewhere
16:08:17 <ais523> it is the worst advert I've ever seen pretty much
16:11:29 <alise> "another breathtaking movie"
16:12:14 <alise> ais523: nooo, they used the rubbish music!
16:12:16 <alise> not the NICE music!
16:12:22 <alise> apart from, you know, all the other flaws
16:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously this is because open-source video-editing stuff sucks.
16:12:34 <ais523> alise: they can't legally use pentagonal dreams on the trailer
16:12:37 <alise> or because a lot of open source people have no taste :-)))
16:12:39 <ais523> its licensing is screwed up
16:12:43 <alise> ais523: i knoowwww
16:12:45 <alise> but it's not faaaair
16:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm amazed that the GNU zealots allowed them to use flash.
16:15:27 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you have to download Enigma to get it; its licensing is, as I said, screwed up
16:15:30 <ais523> and it's not /that/ amazing
16:15:38 <alise> [[Formerly, when a word or phrase in quotation marks came at the end of a phrase or clause that ended with a semicolon, the semicolon would be put before the trailing quotation mark; now, however, the magazine follows the universally observed style and puts the semicolon after the second quotation mark.]]
16:15:39 <ais523> alise: there's a third music too, now
16:15:41 <alise> I really want to know how that looked.
16:15:44 <alise> ais523: I bet it sucks.
16:15:48 <alise> Also, it IS amazing. :|
16:15:50 <ais523> not as good as pentagonal dreams, but still pretty good
16:18:03 <oklopol> what's so bad about the trailer
16:18:06 <alise> Musttypesetabookmusttypesetabook
16:18:17 <ais523> oklopol: have you watched it?
16:18:37 <ais523> well, it's far too long, and tries to explain various gameplay elements in too much detail
16:18:47 <ais523> rather than actually saying what the game's about
16:18:53 <oklopol> well right it's a bad trailer, not a bad video
16:18:56 <ais523> pretty much everything else in there has a calculated awkwardness to it too
16:19:03 <ais523> yes, it's bad at being a trailer
16:19:17 <oklopol> well, it's not an awesome video, but it's not spectaculary awkward
16:19:46 <ais523> enigma contains different floors !
16:20:17 <oklopol> yes that was rather spectacular
16:22:48 <alise> ais523: maybe I should set your wolfram proof xD
16:22:54 <alise> except that it's ugly (sry but it is a bit messy)
16:23:41 <alise> cpressey: CLOJURE; CLOJURE FIXES ALL PROBLEMS! :p
16:23:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html
16:24:00 <alise> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf is the pdf
16:24:11 <ais523> alise: don't worry about it; it's not me who messed it up
16:24:24 <alise> ais523: you typeset it, didn't you?
16:24:27 <ais523> the wolfram people went and appended a bunch of inefficient mathematica to it for advertising purposes or something
16:24:28 <alise> or rather, scribbled it in openoffice
16:24:34 <ais523> and redid all the formatting then for no apparent reason
16:24:45 <alise> they have really bad taste, then
16:25:00 <ais523> admittedly, my original wasn't brilliant, it was just sane default settings
16:25:15 <alise> it doesn't even have proper quotes, the fonts for headings are wat, the spacing is just utterly crazy, especially around headings and quote blocks, quote blocks are pointlessly coloured and dedented...
16:25:29 <alise> ais523: heh, default formatting is far superior to that
16:25:42 <alise> ais523: although really, why didn't you just use LaTeX?
16:26:27 <ais523> I was thinking as I went
16:26:33 <ais523> and didn't know about LyX back then
16:26:36 <AnMaster> alise, did you get opengenera to work nicely? I wrote up a somewhat more up-to-date guide for it. Also includes how to install the symbolics X fonts (otherwise small text like in Show Keyboard Layout output is unreadable).
16:26:37 <ais523> also, there's hardly any maths
16:26:42 <AnMaster> I figured you might be interested in it
16:26:54 <alise> AnMaster: symbolics x fonts?
16:27:02 <ais523> it could mostly have been done in VT100speak without issues
16:27:15 <alise> ais523: yeah, but the maths that is there is barf
16:27:26 <AnMaster> alise, yes if you read the opengenera documentation it mentions that opengenera comes bundled with custom bitmap fonts, but will fall back to standard X fixed bitmap fonts
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16:27:33 <alise> AnMaster: ah. well, link me up.
16:27:34 <AnMaster> alise, the bundled ones are much nicer
16:27:40 <alise> i'd prefer a proper symbolics emulator though!
16:27:40 <AnMaster> alise, sec, will sprunge the file
16:27:50 <alise> which nobody has written yet, inexplicably!
16:28:14 <alise> there are mit cadr emulators, ti explorer emulators ... but no symbolics emulators
16:28:25 <AnMaster> alise, pure text, would really need to be written up as LaTeX to make what is commands and what isn't clearer: http://sprunge.us/ZAWh
16:28:35 <alise> I'll write it up as LaTeX!
16:28:36 <AnMaster> alise, the section you want is near the end
16:28:43 <AnMaster> alise, nah I have it partly done already
16:28:46 <alise> Also, I'll fix all your awful formatting and grammar /because I'm kind/.
16:28:49 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, but not in Minion.
16:29:33 <alise> You are joking wrt GFDL, right?
16:29:48 <alise> "Invariant sections: EVERYTHING"
16:29:57 <AnMaster> alise, I'll probably go for CC-by-sa-nc-3.0.
16:30:10 <alise> * Update system with GUI tool, aptitude, apt-get or whatever you prefer.
16:30:16 <alise> mrrf ... that's not how you're supposed to uppgrade
16:30:22 <alise> AnMaster: now you are surely joking
16:30:33 <AnMaster> alise, I meant update as in get security upgrades and such
16:30:41 <AnMaster> alise, otherwise have fun with openssl bug and so on
16:30:50 <alise> what is it with FOSS zealots who get all touchy when their work happens to be in a language whose interpreter happens to be a brain rather than a computer
16:30:52 <AnMaster> yes the versions on the cd are affected by that
16:31:16 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: now you are surely joking <-- hm? why am I joking about CC-by-sa-nc?
16:31:33 <alise> oh, i thought you included the no-changes clause.
16:31:44 <alise> -nc isn't Free, however
16:32:11 <alise> in the dfsg it violates no discrimination against fields of endeavour.
16:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember a licence that is GPL incompatible because it says that the software must be used for good, not evil.
16:32:34 <alise> it's also not OSI-open
16:32:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: JSON
16:32:43 <alise> AnMaster: and I doubt the FSF considers it free either
16:32:47 <alise> so there, all your idols hate you
16:32:48 <AnMaster> alise, well, symbolics probably isn't legal to use for commerical purposes without a license either
16:33:01 <alise> AnMaster: you can get an OpenGenera license.
16:33:17 <alise> AnMaster: by contacting sales@symbolics-dks.com
16:33:22 <alise> pikhq: i still have to go there, just not sleep.
16:33:32 <alise> ais523: Symbolics? yes, as a shell company
16:33:35 <alise> http://symbolics-dks.com/
16:33:41 <alise> they sold symbolics.com, the oldest .com, to a squatter; shameful
16:33:45 <alise> AnMaster: David K Schmidt
16:33:47 <pikhq> alise: FREEDOMNESSZOMG
16:33:56 <pikhq> ... They *sold symbolics.com*?
16:34:01 <alise> http://symbolics.com/
16:34:14 <alise> it's not like anyone even gives a shit, lol
16:34:20 <alise> but dks probably got tons of money from it
16:35:10 <alise> pikhq: so are there any players that can play ripped blurays?
16:35:14 <alise> can mplayer do it?
16:35:27 <AnMaster> alise, anyway unsolved problems: give internet access to opengenera, write a custom keymap (if that is possible). Numpad-5 (without numlock) as a modifier key doesn't work very well on my laptop!
16:35:49 <AnMaster> another one: Figure out CL-HTTP. Upgrading to last version did not work
16:35:56 <pikhq> alise: Ripped and have the h.264 bitstream dumped to an MPEG4 container file? Have been able to for years.
16:36:09 <pikhq> alise: Just dd'd and decrypted? Recent mplayer can.
16:36:27 <alise> i refer to a bunch of directories including
16:36:57 <pikhq> mplayer bluray:///path/to/bluray/disc/
16:37:20 <alise> pikhq: now how can i take this and pack it up into a single file? can mplayer still play that at speed?
16:37:45 <pikhq> alise: What, you mean make it into a single mkv or something?
16:38:32 <pikhq> I... Think you'd be best using mplayer -dumpaudio and -dumpvideo and -dumpsubs to fetch out the bitstreams you want and then pass it into mkvmerge.
16:38:43 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Because, you see, things should be single files, dammit.
16:39:44 <alise> pikhq: I'm considering downloading the newest Star Trek flick, you see, just because... well, I'd like to see whether it's crap or decent (Sam Hughes thinks good) and I'd like to see the full splendour of 1080p; it's all CGIy so it should be the best quality a man can get. Or is that Gillette?
16:39:53 <alise> I don't actually have the 1080p screen here, it's the TV downstairs, but oh well, a man can dream.
16:40:00 <alise> And it MUST BE A SINGLE FILE
16:40:44 <pikhq> Alternately, you could see if mplayer will play tarballs. :P
16:41:04 <alise> pikhq: Heh. You check that. :P
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16:45:22 <alise> NOVELS are like GREEK MYTHOLOGY put in a BULLET.
16:45:31 <alise> pikhq: I SAID CHECK IT SLAVE :|
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16:48:58 <alise> pikhq: I would but I have nothing to put in the tar.
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16:57:12 <alise> "But Shatner wanted to share Nimoy's major role, and did not want a cameo,[62] despite his character's death in Star Trek Generations. He suggested the film canonize his novels where Kirk is resurrected [...]"
16:57:16 <alise> SHATNER: Give me my fucking film
16:57:47 <fizzie> Put all the files in a filesystem image (that is a single file), and then loop-mount it every time you want to play? The complicatedest solutions are the best.
16:58:32 <alise> pikhq: If a Blu-Ray rip says "x264", then the stream has been tampered with, yes?
16:58:51 <alise> Especially if it's Way Too Small.
16:59:15 <alise> ViDEO CODEC..........: x264_L4.1 @ 13 Mbps
16:59:16 <alise> SOURCE...............: 1080p Blu-ray AVC TrueHD
16:59:18 <ais523> alise: http://blognomic.com/archive/nothing_arbitrary_about_this/
16:59:24 <ais523> you will probably like that proposal
16:59:33 <ais523> especially as it's turned into a hideous counter, of sorts
16:59:57 <alise> blognomic irritates me for some reason
17:03:26 <cpressey> <alise> Musttypesetabookmusttypesetabook <--- ok, now that's one urge I've seen but I've *never* felt or understood
17:03:43 <alise> cpressey: That's because you haven't realised the BEAUTY.
17:03:54 <alise> Heck, I don't even want to publish anything on the web any more because it'd look awful!
17:06:25 <alise> pikhq: God mplayer is like the best thing ever.
17:06:30 <alise> It's ffmpeg + SUPPORT EVERYTHING
17:07:50 <cpressey> I guess my eyeballbuds just aren't that refined.
17:11:55 <alise> ************************************************
17:11:57 <alise> **** Your system is too SLOW to play this! ****
17:11:58 <alise> ************************************************
17:13:57 <ais523> what's that a reference to?
17:14:25 <alise> mplayer said it to me
17:14:38 <alise> "In one or two sentences, describe the process in which users are approved to become administrators on English Wikipedia." -- online Wikimedia Foundation job interview
17:14:42 <alise> It's like an exam. :-D
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17:21:49 <cpressey> way tempted to answer that soooo inappropriately
17:23:15 <Sgeo> Failure on the other programmer's part to do anything resembling best practices caused me to stay up all night
17:23:27 <Sgeo> Since there's no easy way to clear out static class's members
17:23:47 <alise> pikhq: how do you play a video in a reduced size in mplayer?
17:24:32 <cpressey> Sgeo: I assume you either meant "a class's static members" or you are using an interesting language there
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17:27:33 <Sgeo> This code is a shining example of worst practices
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17:28:14 <ais523> a static class would just be a namespace, wouldn't it?
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17:29:25 <Sgeo> This project I've been working on for a while
17:31:05 <Sgeo> I'm seriously, and don't call me Shirley
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17:33:02 <alise> cpressey: I'm trying to minimise the function "size of self-implementation" over the scale lambda-calculus to Scheme.
17:33:32 <comex> I remember someone wrote an article about tht
17:37:20 <pikhq> alise: -xy scaling-factor
17:37:22 <fizzie> cpressey: C# has a thing called "static class"; it's a class with only static members in it, but you can sort-of enforce that by putting a "static" modifier in the class declaration itself.
17:37:52 <pikhq> alise: If using a video output that doesn't have scaling acceleration, you will also need to add -zoom
17:39:07 <alise> pikhq: Bleh, way too slow.
17:39:52 <fizzie> There's also the "lowres" parameter (recommended by that "too-slow" message) of lavdopts, if you're decoding via libavcodec; it could help a lot more than just scaling the output, though it won't always work.
17:41:01 <cpressey> fizzie: Kind of an abuse of the word "class" IMO, but I guess that's C# for ya
17:41:15 <alise> cpressey: is your website really generated with xslt? xD
17:41:37 <alise> cpressey: have you ever noticed that xslt is insane?
17:41:55 <cpressey> alise: YARRH, why thinks ye I be speaking like a PIRATE?
17:42:35 <alise> cpressey: Because you just illegally downloaded copyrighted material?
17:42:39 <cpressey> (I had to learn it for my job at the time anyway, I figured, this looks pretty insane, why not?)
17:42:59 <fizzie> cpressey: What sort of job requires you to learn how to speak like a pirate?
17:43:06 <ais523> fizzie: pirate impersonator?
17:43:16 <ais523> I imagine Disneyland has at least one
17:43:25 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe, or some sort of generic children's entertainer thing.
17:43:28 <alise> the Kludgy Hypertext System!
17:43:42 <cpressey> Ye have no idea how hard 'tis typing with a hook.
17:43:45 <alise> Unfortunately the name is a pain to type on QWERTY.
17:44:26 <ais523> alise: move your fingers to the vi position, then it works just fine
17:44:55 <alise> ais523: but my fingers are never in the vi position
17:45:05 <ais523> mine are when I play NetHack
17:45:15 <alise> kws is close, kludgy website system, but the kw combination is easy to mistype
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17:45:36 <ais523> what about if you use Dvorak?
17:45:50 <zzo38> What is the command in TeX for "repeat until \pageno is the same value as it was the previous time"?
17:45:53 <cpressey> alise: The other option was "code it in PHP", because that's all my crap hosting service offers. And compared to that, xslt felt goof.
17:46:38 <zzo38> I agree PHP is full of some idiotic things, it is also slow, but I sometimes use PHP
17:46:56 <zzo38> And not only for serving files over HTTP
17:47:13 <cpressey> I've wanted to write a (insert nicer language here)->PHP compiler for some time for this reason.
17:47:32 <alise> kms, maybe; kludgy markup system
17:47:49 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes that would help a bit, but it doesn't make PHP run any more efficiently
17:47:57 <alise> i wish there was a mediocre language like python but without the crap
17:48:17 <zzo38> I also sometimes use Forth.
17:48:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do people always say "ah, <language x> is crap" as if it were immediately obvious
17:48:32 <zzo38> alise: Have you ever used Forth?
17:48:41 <Sgeo> English programming language is crap.
17:48:49 <alise> It isn't "mediocre like Python but without the crap". :-)
17:48:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it ... is.
17:49:14 <zzo38> I have used Python as well, for writing a few card games, also in order to fix some things at Free Geek
17:49:21 <zzo38> alise: I never implied it was
17:50:30 <cpressey> To me, Python embodies "Better is Worse", now that alise has brought that up. Sort-of "Mediocrity honed to a fine point"
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17:50:53 <alise> Hey, cpressey woke up.
17:51:15 <cpressey> Yep, pretty much. See, I'm capitalizing my sentences and everything!
17:51:25 <zzo38> Well, there is different opinion. Some people like Python and some don't, also some people like some things in Python or not
17:53:17 <zzo38> Mailman is also written in Python, and I have a question I want to know if you know something about this, which is, which file contains the codes for formatting a text message as HTML document? There is something wrong with it that it removes lines with ">" at the beginning. And in September I will have to fix it
17:53:37 <zzo38> So, which files should I look in to figure out how to fix this problem?
17:54:05 <alise> ais523: why isn't parsing easy?
17:54:14 <alise> zzo38: I suggest not using Mailman,
17:54:22 <ais523> alise: it is, in most cases
17:54:38 <zzo38> alise: Free Geek is the one using Mailman, not me.
17:54:50 <ais523> alise: try Perl6 grammars, if you want to avoid yacc and lex
17:55:09 <ais523> (of note: Rakudo Star was released for "early adopters" today)
17:55:11 <zzo38> If it was up to me I would use the UNIX "mail" command.
17:55:28 <zzo38> But, the UNIX "mail" command is not installed on their computers.
17:55:41 <alise> ais523: i'm not using perl 6 though
17:55:47 <alise> ais523: say, cyclexa; is it good at parsing?
17:55:50 <fizzie> There is a proliferation of parser generators; I tried out Coco/R (not a horrible experience, but not entirely pleasant either) few months ago.
17:55:54 <ais523> alise: it's what it's designed for
17:56:03 <ais523> but no, because it isn't implemented yet
17:56:21 <alise> ais523: do you know what it looks like?
17:56:44 <cpressey> ais523: Perl6 has a built-in grammar construct? Hm
17:56:47 <fizzie> (Also SableCC was used in some course or other, and it wasn't completely horrible either.)
17:57:09 <cpressey> I tried out CoCo/R a *long* time ago. The first ALPACA was coded using it.
17:57:32 <ais523> alise: Perl6? or Cyclexa?
17:57:41 <ais523> Cyclexa looks like regexps just with more punctuation marks
17:58:09 <ais523> it's unfortunately not particularly readable, as one of the minor design rules was to golf the thing
17:58:17 <ais523> perhaps I'll add in sugar if I ever get around to implementing it
17:58:24 <alise> so, say you want to parse {word ...}, where ... is free text, nested; but also {word ... :a ... :b ...} to have the a and b parts separate, for arbitrary word/a/b
17:58:30 <alise> (and arbitrary number of parameters)
17:58:35 <alise> what would the general idea of that be in cyclexa?
17:58:39 <cpressey> I can never get into parser generators, they always seem a little incestuous to me, mixing grammar and code like that.
17:59:05 <fizzie> cpressey: Not all of them mix it up. Some have separation of grammar and code as a primary design feature.
17:59:13 <cpressey> Combinator parsers are less bad -- there it's more the case that I haven't found one I like yet
17:59:58 <cpressey> pikhq: I don't like some of it's default choices
18:00:01 <zzo38> cpressey: Perhaps write one in the way that you like it?
18:00:25 <cpressey> zzo38: Yes -- I have one that's mostly written at this point. i should finish it
18:00:26 <ais523> (\{('a-z_'+)( :'a-z'!|'^ '*)*\}
18:00:40 <fizzie> I seem to recall that Grammatica (which is C#/Java), for example, does things so that the grammar file is completely generic and contains no code, and the code's in a separate class.
18:00:47 <ais523> (\{('a-z_'+)($1!| :'a-z'!|'^ '*)*\}
18:01:00 <ais523> and I forgot the closing paren
18:01:02 <cpressey> fizzie: I would prefer that way of organizing stuff. I should check it out
18:01:39 <ais523> alise: I may have made some minor mistakes, but that's basically how it would work
18:01:59 <fizzie> SableCC did something similar, but I don't exactly remember what.
18:02:00 <alise> ais523: that's nice.
18:02:29 <ais523> strangely, all the Cyclexa operators used there also exist in Perl5
18:02:44 <ais523> although it would just try to match, it wouldn't remember the resulting parse tree like Cyclexa does
18:02:47 <cpressey> I was thinking of calling my combinator parser "Jeeves" (because I was using it to implement a language called "Wooster") -- but I just googled "jeeves parser" and there already *is* a parser gen called "Jeeves" -- fizzie was right about there being a proliferation
18:03:06 <ais523> meh, there are two esolangs called Clue
18:03:29 <Sgeo> We should combine them!
18:04:00 <cpressey> er, maybe it's just a template-driven code gen -- but it's close anyway
18:06:23 <alise> ais523: basically writing it in python would be a bitch
18:06:31 <alise> do you think it would be alright in perl, writing a parser for that?
18:07:37 <ais523> regexps do badly for parsing; they check whether your data is in the form you want, but it's a pain to actually get a parse tree out of that
18:08:12 <alise> "# Kills him! I was half expecting it, but also not really expecting it. I thought Lenny would go down to the basement and find Jimmy and then something dramatic would happen. I didn't really expect him to just kill Gammell here and now.
18:08:12 <alise> # Take photo. Opening credits roll. Whoa. That's it?"
18:08:27 <alise> David Morgan-Mar was not a very fan of Backwards Memento.
18:08:49 <fizzie> Maybe you should parse some HTML with regexps! (Cf. that stackoverflow losing-sanity post.)
18:09:49 <ais523> as of Perl 5.8 or so, it can be done
18:09:52 <ais523> this does not mean it's a good idea
18:10:30 <ais523> alise: did I tell you about my collaboration with ESR?
18:10:39 <alise> ais523: No, but I've vomited pre-emptively.
18:10:41 <fizzie> Given that you can just basically stick a full Perl program inside a regex around it, I guess you *can* do pretty much anything.
18:11:02 <ais523> he's trying to create the complete version history of every C-INTERCAL version ever
18:11:10 <ais523> also, to merge his unreleased changes with the latest source
18:11:30 <alise> don't accept them ew ew ew you'll get esr cooties
18:11:46 <ais523> I don't think it works like that...
18:11:57 <alise> they're probably just fetchmail integration anyway
18:12:39 <ais523> well, I don't have much of a choice
18:12:43 <ais523> because this is at the request of Knuth
18:13:10 <alise> that's like an Imperial Degree for programmers.
18:13:21 <pikhq> Okay, you have no choice but to accept. It's an Imperial Decree.
18:13:29 <AnMaster> alise, hm... opengenera supports lpd
18:13:34 <ais523> looks like he really wanted a modern INTERCAL compiler for some reason
18:13:37 <ais523> and who am I to doubt him?
18:13:41 <AnMaster> lets see if we can get this working
18:13:48 <alise> pikhq: Hey, you stole my terminology. :P
18:14:05 <AnMaster> alise, now I just need a dot matrix printer instead of a pdf output driver
18:14:40 <zzo38> If you don't have a dot matrix printer, write a program to emulate a dot matrix printer?
18:15:17 <zzo38> Of course making an emulation will not be perfect, but it can still be used for some thing, display the contents on the screen as it is printing and then send the result to the printer once the document is finished
18:15:40 <zzo38> And also you won't be able to use continuous paper
18:15:43 <fizzie> I have a spare dot matrix printer you might get, if you come to pick it up. (Note: estimated value of the printer probably won't cover your travel costs.)
18:16:21 <alise> ais523: did you ever respond to my perl question?
18:16:51 <ais523> re-ask the question and I'll remember which one it is
18:17:04 <ais523> oh, "would it be alright in perl"? I responded
18:17:05 <fizzie> Last time I visited a large office supply chain store, their detectives managed to locate three existing printer-color-ink-ribbon-things in the whole world (in some warehouse in the middle of nowhere); I ordered all three of them, so it might be nontrivial to get more now if you run out of those.
18:17:10 <ais523> <ais523> regexps do badly for parsing; they check whether your data is in the form you want, but it's a pain to actually get a parse tree out of that
18:17:26 <alise> ais523: yes, what i meant was part-regexp part-perl to parse that syntax
18:17:28 <alise> I've never really tried that
18:17:38 <ais523> that should work, I think
18:17:47 <ais523> I haven't really tried it either, except for Underload
18:17:51 <ais523> and that's rather easy to parse
18:17:56 <ais523> it is very slow, incidentally
18:18:35 <ais523> it's O(n) out from where you'd expect
18:18:52 <ais523> at least the way I did it
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18:23:32 <zzo38> What is the code in TeX for "repeat until \pageno is the same value as it was the previous time"?
18:23:34 <alise> ais523: what i don't get about parsers is, why isn't there one that doesn't require code, just splits into a nested list?
18:24:12 <ais523> alise: people tend to want more control than that
18:24:22 <alise> ais523: I don't :-)
18:24:27 <zzo38> alise: How much do you know about TeX?
18:24:37 <alise> zzo38: Not much about plain TeX.
18:24:41 <alise> Or LaTeX; but a bit of that.
18:25:37 <zzo38> What I know is that Plain TeX does not have blackboard bold, there is various other mathematical symbols missing, too.
18:25:52 <zzo38> How much do you know about LaTeX?
18:26:07 <alise> Not much, but enough to use it competently for simple stuff and for complicated stuff with a bit of Googling.
18:26:10 <fizzie> alise: SableCC constructs an AST without any code, but you'd end up with your AST made out of separate classes (corresponding to the grammar productions), and then you'd need to walk those.
18:26:20 <alise> fizzie: Which is a bitch.
18:26:23 <zzo38> I am writing the Icoruma->TeX conversion program, so I can use LaTeX instead of Plain TeX if I have to.
18:26:33 <alise> zzo38: I would suggest that.
18:26:35 <fizzie> alise: Yes, but on the other hand: no messy parser actions.
18:26:43 <alise> It can do things like Tables of Contents for you, which would be a big boon.
18:26:57 <alise> fizzie: I just want to do something like
18:27:32 <zzo38> alise: I have already figured out how to to table of contents even in Plain TeX
18:27:35 <alise> definition := ^[a-z] \s* '=' \s* ^expr
18:27:52 <zzo38> And how to do cross-referencing
18:28:00 <zzo38> I used this: \def\Ref#1{\xdef#1{\the\pageno}}
18:28:09 <alise> And the ^ would mean "interesting part", so the result of foo=bar would be ('definition', 'foo', ('expr', ('varname', 'bar')))
18:28:19 <alise> zzo38: Yes, but LaTeX does it for you and with lots of typographical stuff.
18:28:55 <fizzie> alise: On the third hand, also, if you just want a nested list out of it, the parser actions in some mixed grammar/code stuff (or the class in something like Grammatica) will be very very simple.
18:29:17 <zzo38> I don't think I need LaTeX unless I need to use a lot of extra matmematical symbols which are not supported in Plain TeX. (Why didn't Knuth put them in Plain TeX?)
18:29:37 <alise> zzo38: LaTeX isn't bloated or anything.
18:30:26 <zzo38> So how do you do that kind of cross-referencing in LaTeX, then?
18:30:50 <Sgeo> Big Project is Open (as Public Alpha) NOW!
18:31:26 <alise> zzo38: Making a reference to a page number, you mean?
18:31:47 <alise> \label{my-unique-name}
18:31:51 <zzo38> TeX has a very powerful macro support, so I can already do table of contents, and references, and various other things, how does LaTeX improve onto this?
18:31:53 <alise> \ref{my-unique-name}
18:32:25 <fizzie> alise: \pageref, you mean; if you're talking about page number references.
18:32:34 <alise> zzo38: LaTeX was created with close attention to typographical detail, so things will be more refined than your work, unless you're an experienced typesetter; and it has more comprehensive support for those things. Additionally, it provides several useful commands, alleviating the need to define them yourself, and often with more useful functoinality.
18:32:45 <alise> \pageref{my-unique-name} yields a page number.
18:35:03 <zzo38> alise: So that is how you do it.
18:35:41 <zzo38> But still, what kind of improvements does LaTeX add on? Plain TeX can do things like this too without too much difficulty, I showed you the codes I used
18:36:57 <pikhq> LaTeX makes everything easier to do by hand.
18:37:03 <pikhq> This is the *main* benefit.
18:37:04 <alise> LaTeX pays much more typographical attention; contains many, many more commands, more complex than the ones you have so far hand-crafted; and is altogether a consistent and useful /semantic/ system with /pluggable looks/ rather than TeX the /visual/ system with /coded-in looks/.
18:37:25 <pikhq> Otherwise, there's a lot of fine details that you probably don't notice that it does.
18:37:27 <zzo38> O, OK, so that is the difference! Thanks now I know
18:38:04 <pikhq> But, yeah; you put in semantic info and let it do the rest.
18:38:22 <fizzie> I think the main idea is that with LaTeX you get to specify the logical structure of the document (it has sections, subsections, figures, tables) and then someone else has already thought out how to make it look nice; it's not so low-level that you'd have to say how something looks, as opposed to what something is.
18:38:54 <fizzie> (I had that whole long sentence written, I didn't want it to go waste even if you two already said the same things twice.)
18:39:02 <pikhq> Of course, if you *insist*, you can just straight-up futz with the look of the document.
18:39:11 <pikhq> (it *is* still TeX, just with a bunch of macros defined)
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18:41:11 <fizzie> I could, however, understand someone not using LaTeX and opting for hand-crafted lowlevelness just "because"; I don't really have a valid explanation of everything I've ever reimplemented while fiddling with things.
18:41:39 <alise> fizzie: Way to give therapy to zzo38's NIH :-P
18:41:45 <alise> cpressey so does need to become a NIH therapist.
18:41:53 <alise> NIH, the rapist of minds.
18:42:00 <fizzie> alise: I mean, if I didn't write it, why on earth would it be any good for anything?
18:44:56 <zzo38> Does LaTeX also have more mathematical symbols?
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18:46:06 <fizzie> There's AMS-LaTeX for lots of mathematical symbols; but didn't they have an AMS-TeX too?
18:46:42 <cpressey> Like all good psychiatric types, I would just end up subtly encouraging NIH to keep my patient roster full, of course.
18:47:14 <zzo38> I don't know, is there Plain TeX with AMS added on? If so, I would make the next version of Enhanced CWEB support it
18:48:43 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Kurt Gödel looks delightfully evil... <-- both name and look fit perfectly for a mad scientist villain
18:49:43 <fizzie> oerjan: He should've had a cat on his lap in more pictures.
18:50:12 <oerjan> are there _any_ such pictures?
18:50:19 <zzo38> How do I activate the use of AMS with Plain TeX?
18:50:30 <fizzie> "More than zero", based on a quick Google image search.
18:51:01 <fizzie> http://www.ams.org/publications/authors/tex/tex has download links for AMS-TeX; I have no clue what is in there that wouldn't be in AMS-LaTeX, or vice versa, but supposedly it has some docs in the distribution too.
18:51:04 <oerjan> presumably it was a package, like latex itself is
18:51:26 <fizzie> "Each collection includes a user's guide"; that sounds promising.
18:52:44 <zzo38> It says MediaWiki supports LaTeX markup, but commands such as \count don't work? Is that only for Plain TeX? Or are those commands just unavailable in MediaWiki?
18:53:15 <oerjan> no relevant hits on google picture search
18:53:34 <alise> Okay, anyone parsed stuff in Python?
18:53:42 <fizzie> oerjan: No; but there were very strange pictures of a hammer, and a hairy naked man.
18:53:44 <alise> zzo38: AMS-TeX is heavily deprecated.
18:53:48 <alise> Not even Spivak, its author, would use it
18:53:57 <alise> (Yes, oerjan; /that/ Spivak.)
18:54:05 <alise> cpressey: With? Just plain Python?
18:54:21 <cpressey> alise: Yes. Then I tried a combinator parser dealie which sucked. So I wrote my own.
18:54:37 <cpressey> But I'm strange you see. I *like* writing RDPs.
18:54:52 -!- alise has left (?).
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18:55:00 <alise> Python makes them painful.
18:55:06 <zzo38> Really? AMS-TeX is deprecated? I would use it in Enhanced CWEB, if it is compatible with Plain TeX
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18:55:16 <alise> All I want to parse is {tag body body body :param body body body :param body body body ...} nested in body.
18:55:33 <alise> zzo38: Well, perhaps not officially /deprecated/; but very unmaintained.
18:55:39 <alise> "AMS-TeX was originally written by Michael Spivak, and was used by the AMS from 1983 to 1985."
18:56:00 <cpressey> Oddly, actually, it's Java where I've found writing an RDP to be the least pleasant. C, Perl, Python, all about the same level of hassle. Well, the C routines I use, I guess have been around a lot longer and have aged like fine cheese.
18:56:12 <zzo38> (A MediaWiki comment also says that \underrightarrow is also not supported, so it isn't only \count and \def that don't work)
18:56:33 <cpressey> alise: That's like two or three productions, tops.
18:56:56 <cpressey> People other than me would say using a parser gen for it would be overkill.
18:56:59 <zzo38> Does MiKTeX include support for AMS-TeX?
18:57:09 <alise> cpressey: Yeah -- now try and write it as a recursive descent parser in Python.
18:57:20 <alise> zzo38: Probably not.
18:58:21 <cpressey> def parse_body(): expect '{'; tag = scan(); while token != '}' parse_body(); expect '}';
18:58:27 <cpressey> of course you need to parse params too
18:58:33 <cpressey> but i don't know what rules you are using for that
18:58:42 <alise> Okay, here's a full description of the syntax:
18:58:43 <cpressey> and of course that is teh bad python
18:58:43 <AnMaster> alise, symbolics documentation on installing a printer:
18:58:44 <AnMaster> In order to install a printer, you have to:
18:58:44 <AnMaster> * Cable the printer to a Symbolics system
18:58:49 <AnMaster> the first item there... wtf XD
18:59:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: It was even better since I misread it as "Uncreate the printer".
18:59:21 <cpressey> AnMaster: It needs a label: DO NOT PLUG IN WHILE STILL IN CRATE
18:59:47 <alise> cpressey: Every node is either arbitrary plain-text without { or }, or a node of the format {TAGNAME ... PARAMS}, where TAGNAME is just an a-z case-insensitive string, ... is more of these nodes that I'm describing, except terminated on the first whitespace followed by ":". Params are :TAGNAME ... with whitespace always before the :, with the ... terminated in the same way.
19:00:09 <AnMaster> In bold under the section "Uncrating the Printer": "Check the outside of the box containing the printer for unpacking and installation instructions."
19:00:14 <alise> {link {bold Go}{italic ogle} :to http://google.com/ :andoverthetopfornoparticularreason hello, {bold world}!}
19:00:18 <AnMaster> this just gets better for every line!!
19:00:22 <fizzie> I seem to have only written a parser for Rail -- as in, the 2d trail-following esolang -- in Python, and that's not very recursive-descent by nature.
19:01:08 <fizzie> "Hello, bold world!" sounds somehow more upbeat than a regular hello-world message.
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19:02:09 <alise> cpressey: Writing this in Python is teh pain.
19:05:02 <Gregor-P> Seems that generally people want a Hackiki as an adjunct to the MediaWiki
19:05:19 <AnMaster> why... is they naming the example printer in the docs "pravda"
19:06:20 <alise> Gregor-P: We'll probably neglect it.
19:06:40 <fizzie> It's a reasonable name, still; the word's known widely even among non-Russian-speaking folks.
19:07:24 <fizzie> Also good name for a printer; it would not feel out-of-place to print flyers to extremist-political demonstrations on it.
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19:08:36 <oklopol> fizzie: did you paste what i asked you to
19:08:46 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh noes, sorry. I'll do that now.
19:09:08 <zzo38> Gregor-P: I also agree, add Hackiki as an adjunct to the MediaWiki.
19:09:16 <fizzie> :d:D:D:D:Dd:Ddddd:-D:DDDDD
19:09:21 <fizzie> I compleatly forgot about it.
19:09:27 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
19:09:33 <oklopol> this is the best day of my life
19:09:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: Don't look at me; he wanted it.
19:09:46 <oklopol> for two reasons actually, the other happened at uni
19:09:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is so out of character. Using a longer than maybe 4 smiley
19:09:58 <fizzie> oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?!
19:10:02 <oklopol> you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places
19:10:03 <zzo38> If some people want to convert some of the pages over they can do so, possibly someone will add a MediaWiki parser in that Hackiki site if they want that.....
19:10:14 <fizzie> oklopol: Thus far it's not sounding like a love story.
19:10:15 <oklopol> there are two rolls in one
19:10:18 <AnMaster> <fizzie> oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?!
19:10:18 <AnMaster> <oklopol> you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places
19:10:24 <oklopol> and the other roll was the wrong way around
19:10:24 <zzo38> I think you should provide read-only access to some of the MediaWiki files from Hackiki
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19:10:37 <zzo38> So that some people can experiment a few things
19:10:39 <oklopol> and the paper was hanging down
19:10:46 <oklopol> so what when you pulled paper out
19:10:51 <zzo38> Also, add the <math> tag to the MediaWiki installation you have
19:10:55 <oklopol> the other paper came out from the side of the wall!
19:11:04 <oklopol> so you had to take pieces in turns
19:11:07 <alise> <fizzie> AnMaster: Don't look at me; he wanted it.
19:11:11 <alise> That's not considered a valid defence.
19:11:29 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah don't be a german
19:11:33 <AnMaster> I think I can safely conclude that plug-and-play was invented way after symbolics went defunct
19:11:36 <fizzie> oklopol: Do you mean the sort of thing that has a big roll and a small roll, and you can sort of access both simultaneously, or just the sort where there's one roll at the bottom, and then one (or two; I've seen two too) back-up rolls on top of it, meant to drop down when the first one's exhausted?
19:12:30 <oklopol> i've never seen it happen before, but it was seriously so awesome
19:12:55 <fizzie> oklopol: Okay, yes, our toilets have those two. I've seen one of them in a state where the down-hanging piece of paper was actually the middle roll, and it was rotating around there in the middle; there's this sort of thing holding it up, so it didn't get friction from the bottom roll. (There's a narrow gap in front you can then use to drop it past those roll-holders if the bottom roll is finito.)
19:13:15 <oklopol> i stared at it for 5 minutes and could barely fight the urge to start knocking on doors telling random people about it
19:13:43 <ais523> oklopol: I can actually believe that
19:13:56 <fizzie> alise: "Look how his nickname is shaped; he was so asking for it."
19:14:21 <alise> aww oklopol and fizzie are such a cute couple
19:14:24 <ais523> the same sort of discovery as when you put a battery in backwards in an old-fashioned analog battery-powered clock, and the hands start ticking backwards
19:15:20 <oklopol> holy shit that would be awesome
19:15:33 <oklopol> i have to see a clock going backwards
19:15:49 <oerjan> it's how Gregor-P got in that closed time loop
19:16:04 <oklopol> oh, i guess that's why i've "never" seen it
19:16:48 <oklopol> from our perspective, he'll just disappear?
19:16:53 <fizzie> ais523: That reminds me of a story. My printer had its front panel lights flashing briefly every now and then (once every few hours or so) when it was turned off; so I went to the manufacturer's website, and the knowledge base had that as a known issue: the fix was to unplug the printer, rotate the plug 180 degrees around the cord axis, then re-plug it back. Sure enough, after I rotated the plug the flashing stopped.
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19:16:58 <oklopol> no wait probably there's something like a tm involved
19:17:15 <ais523> fizzie: ouch, that printer model must have a dodgy ground plane
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19:18:03 <Gregor-W> Yeesh, I'll have to remember that this time 'round.
19:18:20 <alise> <ais523> the same sort of discovery as when you put a battery in backwards in an old-fashioned analog battery-powered clock, and the hands start ticking backwards
19:18:37 <oklopol> fizzie: how many flashes did you wait in front of the printer before checking the webpage?
19:18:48 <fizzie> I'm trying to find the KB article, but the "customer support" site is giving me a "WrongChannelException: Channel is null for siteId=204816596 and channelId=374757490" Java exception and a 46 methods deep stacktrace.
19:18:58 <alise> Gregor-W: Hi! You are Gregor-W.
19:19:06 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if it works on all models, but it definitely works on some
19:19:09 <fizzie> oklopol: A week's worth of clock-time, but I wasn't staring at it all the time.
19:19:12 <ais523> I know, because I've done it by accident
19:19:13 <Gregor-W> alise: Thank you, /me writes this down.
19:19:28 <Gregor-W> alise: Where's our TC CPP code? ;)
19:19:45 <alise> Gregor-W: Oh, I'll give it to you in just a m...
19:19:48 <alise> Gregor-W: Hi! You are Gregor-W.
19:20:12 * oerjan expects there's a reference he doesn't get
19:20:18 <Gregor-W> OK, you seem to have gotten caught into some ridiculously short prograde-amnesia-induced loop.
19:20:27 <oklopol> i was wondering if it was about the loop but no idea what it'd mean
19:20:35 <oerjan> oklopol: actually, it's world-domination.
19:20:38 * ais523 has trouble remembering events from the future
19:20:39 <fizzie> ais523: Oooh: "Lexmark is conducting a voluntary recall of the E230, E232, E232t, E330, E332, E332n, and E332tn printer models. This recall is being done in cooperation with consumer safety agencies around the world.
19:20:39 <fizzie> Lexmark has not received any reports of incidents or injuries involving these printers. However, through internal reliability testing, Lexmark has identified a potential safety issue in one printer after the equivalent of several years of normal usage. In the unlikely event of a multiple component failure, the printer could present an electrical shock hazard if it is connected to an ungrounded power source."
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19:20:59 <ais523> fizzie: seems reasonable
19:21:24 <ais523> if your printer is capable of detecting the difference between live-neutral and neutral-live, it must be that the chassis earth potential is involved somehow
19:21:31 <ais523> which it shouldn't be, for safety and sanity reasons
19:22:07 <oerjan> insane printers for your hideously non-euclidean printing needs
19:22:18 <fizzie> ais523: They haven't really advertised the recall too much, though.
19:22:42 <fizzie> ais523: "For safety reasons, we ask that you unplug your printer from its power source before checking to see if your printer is subject to this recall. If your printer is connected to an ungrounded power source, we ask that you do not open the covers, do not turn off the printer, do not touch the back of the printer, and do not touch anything else connected to the printer prior to unplugging it."
19:22:53 <oklopol> umm wait non-euclidean because printers print on a plane
19:22:58 <ais523> ok, that sounds /very/ like a chassis ground failure
19:23:21 <oerjan> oklopol: _these_ printers print on a klein bottle. which doesn't intersect itself.
19:23:26 <ais523> hmm, pity that you're allowed to unplug it
19:23:29 <oerjan> well, that's the simplest setting, anyway
19:23:37 <ais523> it would be hilarious if you had to ship it back to Lexmark while it was still plugged in
19:23:57 <Gregor-W> "In spite of the clear instructions on the sticker in the case, under no circumstances should you lick any part of the printer until you have determined that it is not one of the affected models."
19:24:24 <oerjan> there are clear instructions on the sticker to lick it?
19:24:58 <alise> does it really say lick :D
19:25:19 <oerjan> DO NOT PUT PRINTER PLUG IN NOSE
19:25:40 <fizzie> ais523: On the other hand, they posted this recall notice in September 2004, and we bought the printer *after* that, and it still does the flashing-lights thing. They say only "some models" of post-August-2004 are affected. So, well.
19:26:03 <ais523> I don't see why a voluntary recall necessarily means they stop selling the things
19:26:22 <Gregor-W> "Although cherry-flavored, the magenta ink is highly toxic and should not be drank."
19:26:55 <fizzie> It does hopefully mean they'd have fixed the problem, but of course this printer has possibly been in someone's warehouse for a long long time.
19:27:19 <oklopol> Gregor-W: what are you pasting?
19:27:22 <fizzie> They *are* (well, were) promising to replace it with another unit of the same model, so one hopes the replacement version would be un-faulty.
19:27:36 <alise> Gregor-W: keep doing it it's hilarious
19:27:50 <fizzie> Actually our printer hasn't been doing the flashing-lights thing nowadays with grounded outlets, I think. Unless of course I accidentally got the plug in the right way.
19:27:53 <Gregor-W> oklopol: From my twisted brain.
19:28:10 <Gregor-W> fizzie: I would think that if they recalled a model, they would change the model number of new ones without the problem they recalled it for ...
19:28:35 <oklopol> Gregor-W: so do you people say "drank" for perfect tense nowadays or did you make a typo, or did you make a grammatical error?
19:28:54 <alise> middling tense markers; tattlesquat! I'll tell you what:
19:28:59 <oerjan> oklopol: hey i was trying not to comment on that
19:28:59 <alise> Bjorn made a trip to the embassy ...
19:29:22 <fizzie> Gregor: It's only a partial recall, so I guess they already had broken and un-broken versions floating around.
19:29:25 <oerjan> alise: he should _not_ have worn his special knife belt.
19:29:26 <Gregor-W> oklopol: It's ambiguous in this case since the ink shouldn't be drunk either.
19:29:39 <oklopol> i'm not trying to be a smart-ass, it's just Gregor-W doesn't make mistakes, so i thought "ohh there's a whole webpage of these"
19:29:40 <Gregor-W> oklopol: So I went with the unambiguous but grammatically-dubious "drank"
19:29:49 <alise> oerjan: and this knife belt, right, it was powered by the night;
19:29:55 <alise> The night! night! The very frightened night!
19:30:03 <oklopol> Gregor-W: my first thought was that that would make sense
19:30:04 <alise> and Bjorn walked to the pavement--right--and saw something fearful:
19:30:41 <alise> Gregor-W: the ink should not be drinking so much alcohol
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19:31:15 <Gregor-W> "Please be aware when planning printer-related meals that the black ink is not kosher and contains pork products."
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19:31:51 <fizzie> And, err, the fix seems to have been to include in the safety instructions the following: "[1] If your product is *not* marked with this symbol [square inside a square], it *must* be connected to an electrical outlet that is properly grounded." (Where I guess the square-inside-a-square is the usual class 2 double-insulated device symbol.)
19:32:45 <alise> oklopol: And in his wake Bjorn discovered a philosophical masturbator--
19:32:52 <alise> curator of sciences, physic & all
19:32:55 <alise> He lead Bjorn into the great hall ...
19:33:51 <ais523> then lead the hall back out of Bjorn?
19:33:54 <oklopol> Gregor-W: you could you make a website with made-up products with hilarious instructions
19:34:07 <alise> ais523: & this was met with scorn.
19:34:13 <alise> Why does he speak, Bjorn wonders, right, and this guy--
19:34:22 <alise> stupid fucking guy, I wonder why I'm even talking to him -- thinks Bjorn, and
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19:34:27 <alise> he's not really quite sure what this is all about but anyway...
19:34:37 <oklopol> alise: he's not the only one
19:34:46 <Gregor-W> "The paper tray of this printer is removable for your convenience. However, due to the high printing speed and to avoid risk of decapitation, it is highly recommended that you leave it attached when printing on card stock."
19:35:00 <alise> oklopol: well it's not bjorn's swan song!
19:36:03 <alise> Terribly disturbed, he served lemon curd:
19:36:15 <alise> and this was what was seen by the president's priest when on a visit --
19:36:21 <alise> Frightened, Bjorn said! Aah! Aah! This is what he said
19:36:29 <alise> and he said what he said before he became dead! Aaah! Aaah! This is what he said!
19:36:50 <alise> But he didn't die at this present point!
19:37:25 <ais523> """Suddenly, nothing happens."""
19:37:58 <alise> """"But quote marks do nest", said the pest", said the antediluvian nest" was a stupid thing to say", he said, but it was said anyway"
19:38:01 <oklopol> this is the best flood i've seen in ages
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19:38:14 <ais523> alise: it was meant to be a quote, so I put it in quote marks
19:38:22 <ais523> but then, because it wasn't actually a quote
19:38:24 <ais523> I put the quote marks in quotes
19:38:30 <ais523> to show that it wasn't really quoting
19:38:52 <alise> "Bjorn", later said a historian, "would have here commented on how quotes should properly be nested 'like this "and this" and this': for alternating quotes are the devil's honey, and Bjorn was a fan of the devil."
19:39:05 <ais523> if that's not an INTERCAL reference, it should be
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19:39:34 <ais523> not that it's the only way to nest quotes in INTERCAL, but it's the easiest way to stay sane
19:39:37 <alise> "All references" said a philosopher (who was called Bjorn (the Bjorn we've been talking about)) "are relative."
19:42:00 <zzo38> I found the AMSFonts package it includes macro files for Plain TeX, I don't need AMS-TeX? Will just AMS-Fonts do what I wanted within Enhanced CWEB
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19:44:18 <AnMaster> alise, one thing you can't say about opengenera is that it supports plug and play for networking and hardware
19:44:34 <Gregor-W> "We must never rest until everything inside us worships God." -- AW Tozer \ What an entirely creepy thing to say.
19:44:38 <AnMaster> alise, atm I'm looking at the documentation of a function to define a postscript printer type
19:45:08 <alise> Gregor-W: Say hi to religion.
19:45:23 <Gregor-W> I would rather cry in the fetal position, TYVM.
19:47:02 <Gregor-W> cpressey: By the way, a lot of the dependencies of C code on the machine wrapping things right is actually the compiler being clever with optimizations. IIRC (there was some case very similar to this), GCC multiplies by 10 without multiplying or shifting. It's convoluted magic.
19:47:58 <alise> Hmm, did I ever publish that Wiktionary-to-OED thing?
19:48:13 <alise> It would look up a word in Wikitionary then reformat it to look like the definitions you find in the OED.
19:48:30 <Gregor-W> alise: Work on TC CPP instead :P
19:49:10 <alise> Gregor-W: Okay; give me a simple recursive algorithm to implement that uses lists in a simple way.
19:50:53 <Gregor-W> Hmmm, MAYBE a cyclic tag system, which was ais523's (?) first thought too.
19:51:39 <ais523> Gregor-W: cyclic tag tends to be simplest for that sort of thing
19:52:08 <alise> Gregor-W: I suck at writing them, though.
19:52:38 <ais523> although, cyclic tag likes queue-equivalents, and lists are better at stack-equivalents
19:56:03 <alise> http://www.laws-of-form.net/lof/pdf/Denjoy_proof.pdf A "proof" of Riemann's hypothesis (and "much, much more" sort of thing) by the author of that piece of twaddle Laws of Form.
19:56:09 <Gregor-W> ais523: Stack-equivalents aren't as good at being-Turing-complete equivalents ... and forming two stacks MIGHT be tricky ...
19:56:09 <alise> Anyone want to rip into it?
19:56:40 <ais523> no, the Riemann Hypothesis scares me
19:56:49 <alise> ais523: it seems to use much more simple mathematics, actually.
19:56:57 <alise> by proving a supposedly-stronger theorem
19:57:12 <ais523> it's not the complexity, it's the connection to the primes
19:58:08 <Gregor-W> alise: I THINK you should be able to do two stacks in CPP, right? And with two stacks you've got a tape, and with a tape it shouldn't be difficult to make an actual Turing machine.
19:58:46 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes, but *iterating* through these is VERY hard; you must use recursive includes.
19:59:17 <Gregor-W> alise: Each state could be a separate #include file which re-#defines the two halves, then #includes the next part. Think of it like iteration even though strictly it's doing recursive includes.
19:59:58 <Gregor-W> And each one does the transform of that state as an actual transformation, since you can #undef and re-#define in CPP.
20:00:11 <Gregor-W> Then includes whichever next state is appropriate.
20:00:22 <Gregor-W> You could also have multiple states just by #define STATE 3 or whatever :P
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20:00:33 <alise> cpressey: Pixley minimalisation suggestions: Remove booleans; just use the symbols #t and #f.
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20:00:55 <alise> Specify that (define #t '#t) and (define #f '#f) must be in place.
20:02:03 <Gregor-W> If you made the tapes look like a, (b, (c, ())) then you could have every macro just take two arguments, head and tail.
20:02:18 <alise> Gregor-W: Heh, it is Not That Easy.
20:02:23 <alise> I have a working list structure... but it is difficult.
20:02:39 <Gregor-W> Wish I wasn't at work so I could prove to myself that it's Not That Easy :P
20:03:05 <alise> Fine, I'll try it Your Way.
20:03:16 <Gregor-W> I'm just throwin' out thoughts here.
20:03:34 <alise> It definitely can't be so simple as
20:03:36 <alise> It will have to be
20:03:47 <alise> #define hd_(h,t) h
20:03:47 <alise> #define hd(l) hd_(l)
20:03:49 <alise> I have verified this.
20:04:07 <Gregor-W> I didn't mention that detail because I knew you already knew that :P
20:04:10 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/cpp$ cpp -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -undef -nostdinc -P list2.hlist2.h:9:37: error: macro "tl_" requires 2 arguments, but only 1 given
20:04:10 <alise> list2.h:9:37: error: macro "hd_" requires 2 arguments, but only 1 given
20:04:20 <alise> I am as of yet struggling to find a reason for this.
20:04:29 <Gregor-W> When hd() is called with what?
20:04:35 <alise> hd(tl(cons(a,cons(b,cons(c,d)))))
20:04:37 <alise> yields one less error
20:04:41 <alise> Gregor-W: Lemme debug.
20:04:44 <Gregor-W> Uhhh ... that is one argument.
20:04:53 <alise> tl(cons(a,cons(b,cons(c,d))))
20:05:05 <alise> You can't "unwrap" it from the ()s, either.
20:05:09 <alise> Thus debunking your list structure; it must be flat.
20:05:37 <Gregor-W> #define unwrap_(h, t) h,t \n #define unwrap(l) unwrap_ l]
20:05:55 <Gregor-W> But it's certainly worth a shot.
20:06:11 <alise> Gregor: No need for anything so complex, btw.
20:06:14 <alise> #define cons(h,t) (h,t)
20:06:14 <alise> #define hd_(h,t) h
20:06:14 <alise> #define hd(l) hd_ l
20:06:14 <alise> #define tl_(h,t) t
20:06:14 <alise> #define tl(l) tl_ l
20:06:28 <pikhq> Hmm. This actually suggests that C could have *good* metaprogramming from this.
20:06:39 <alise> pikhq: it's iteration that's hard (almost impossible)
20:06:46 <alise> I will now extend this to have markers for nil/cons.
20:06:50 <alise> However, booleans are very tricksy.
20:07:07 <ais523> can you use hd and tl as true and false?
20:07:48 <alise> However, booleans are very tricksy.
20:07:59 <alise> ais523: alas, no; and nor specially designed ones, either
20:08:12 <alise> #define hd_(d,h,t) d(h, ERROR_IS_NIL)
20:08:17 <alise> but then the tail that is produced
20:08:19 <alise> the d is marked as from-cpp
20:08:22 <alise> and so is not recursively expanded
20:08:26 <alise> so it just becomes true(h, ERROR_IS_NIL)
20:08:32 <alise> This is my approach.
20:09:15 <alise> #define nil (1,END,END)
20:09:15 <alise> #define cons(h,t) (0,h,t)
20:09:15 <alise> #define isnil_(d,h,t) d
20:09:15 <alise> #define isnil(l) isnil_ l
20:09:15 <alise> #define hd_(d,h,t) h
20:09:16 <alise> #define hd(l) hd_ l
20:09:18 <alise> #define tl_(d,h,t) t
20:09:20 <alise> #define tl(l) tl_ l
20:10:59 <alise> list2.h:21:14: error: missing binary operator before token "tl_"
20:11:31 <alise> Gregor-P: all this seems to run into the no-recursive-expansion mess i'm afraid
20:12:32 <Gregor-P> I'm not sure why, you should only ever need to take one step...
20:13:14 <alise> http://pastie.org/1067545.txt?key=9jy5nwppi2mgw55z1wbneg
20:13:21 <alise> Run this with "cpp -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -undef -nostdinc -P" and study the error.
20:13:31 <alise> Then perhaps you will see how cpp's anti-tricksyness laws are stopping us.
20:14:12 <alise> Well, in this case,
20:14:16 <alise> it is that #define bar foo does not copy foo to bar.
20:14:24 <alise> Therefore how do we do it?
20:14:28 <alise> I do not know that it is possible.
20:14:48 <alise> Perhaps someone could link me to the Game of Life so I can study it.
20:15:18 <zzo38> What are you trying to do with the C preprocessor now?
20:15:32 <alise> Prove it Turing-complete.
20:16:03 <zzo38> Did you look at ORDERPP?
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20:16:45 <alise> I have no idea what they are.
20:16:45 <pikhq> Argh, anti-tricksyness.
20:17:15 <pikhq> The C preprocessor is literally trying to prevent itself from being more generally useful.
20:17:32 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:17:35 <zzo38> Did you try: #define isnil(l) isnil_##l maybe you need a ## sign, I'm not quite sure about that
20:18:31 <zzo38> I know that in ORDERPP codes, you have functions with 8 before each function name, like 8if(8and(8x),8y) and things like that
20:18:36 <pikhq> zzo38: He doesn't want token concatenation.
20:19:13 <zzo38> I found the C preprocessor useful in writing ARGOPT
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20:19:58 <fizzie> It's probably just trying to prevent non-halting preprocessor expansions, which is perhaps a bit misguided; but you know what they say about preprocessor abusers. (Actually, what *do* they say about them?)
20:20:27 <pikhq> fizzie: But we *wants* non-halting preprocessor expansions.
20:21:18 <zzo38> I believe the "8" before the function names in ORDERPP is probably to delay expansions or something, like that, so that you can expand the parts later with different codes, or something, I don't actually know why, but I guessed
20:21:36 -!- nooga has joined.
20:23:04 <AnMaster> wonderful, I got a cover page in the pdf, that is all...
20:23:19 <AnMaster> no actual screen hard copy though
20:26:43 <zzo38> I know that ORDERPP is turing complete, and is written entirely using the C preprocessor.
20:28:03 <fizzie> But the internet doesn't know it at all, so we have no clue what it's like.
20:28:14 <fizzie> The internet defined by google, anyway.
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20:33:33 <zzo38> There is also Enhanced CWEB in which you can do many things even before the preprocessor, but that isn't based purely on the C preprocessor. You can do things like http://sprunge.us/WSfI but you can also write metamacros for various things, too.
20:34:42 <Sgeo> Stupid "throw" where I didn't want one!
20:34:50 <Sgeo> Now, instead of one puzzle crashing, the whole game crashed!
20:35:06 <zzo38> Sgeo: In what thing?
20:35:29 <Sgeo> I'd give a link, but the website's in Flash and not very helpful
20:35:30 <alise> zzo38: What is ORDERPP?
20:36:16 <zzo38> ORDERPP is a set of C preprocessor macros for making it Turing-complete.
20:37:07 <alise> Can you publish it somewhere?
20:37:18 <zzo38> I think it is on SourceForge and is part of the same project as CHAOSPP.
20:37:32 <alise> I can't find CHAOSPP.
20:38:10 <zzo38> Unfortunately on Google, searching for "chaospp" and "orderpp" together returns no results.
20:39:10 <fizzie> Searching for only one of them also returns no relevant results, and searching for "chaospp" and "preprocessor" (or "orderpp" and "preprocessor") also finds no results, so they are pretty elusive stuff.
20:39:46 <alise> I remember seeing some awfully great cpp programming framework on sourceforge once.
20:39:52 <alise> But I don't think it was (CHAOS|ORDER)PP.
20:40:31 <zzo38> Try searchings things other than Google, try SourceForge, or Archie or Veronica even, or Tor or Freenet or GNUtella or whatever
20:41:08 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:41:53 <alise> Find anything on GNUtella? /Ha!/
20:43:01 * Sgeo vaguely screams
20:43:19 <Sgeo> I'm waiting for someone
20:43:23 <zzo38> But one of the limitations in C preprocessor is macros cannot expand to other preprocessor directives (including definition of other macros)
20:43:24 <Sgeo> While the public is in-world
20:43:43 <pikhq> alise: That is such an awful pun.
20:43:53 <alise> pikhq: What; gnutella?
20:44:00 <alise> It is; isn't it great? You probably know it as LimeWire.
20:44:14 <alise> You know, the crappy P2P network that's just viruses disguised as porn clips.
20:45:03 <zzo38> You can create include files that use #include to conditionally define things and stuff, but you can't do it other things.
20:45:24 <fizzie> You can expand macros into the special "_Pragma" preprocessor unary-operator (not the #pragma directive form, the function-like form), but that's probably not very useful usually.
20:45:47 <zzo38> What you can do in C preprocessor however, is define one macro and then later define other macros that the first macro uses and call the first macro. This is something done in ARGOPT.
20:46:32 <zzo38> That is the standard-edition of ARGOPT. I might then later also write web-edition of ARGOPT, which includes some additional functions such as printing out the parameters in a table with documentation, and generating man pages
20:46:56 <zzo38> If I do so, I will be maintaining standard-edition and web-edition separately.
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20:47:54 <alise> are you the plan9 uriel?
20:48:11 <alise> Okay, presumably not.
20:48:20 <fizzie> Or Uriel Septim, the emperor?
20:48:33 <fizzie> Oh, sorry, that's a fictional guy.
20:49:01 <alise> Right, well, hello אוּרִיאֵל.
20:49:06 <zzo38> I suppose it can sometimes be useful to use _Pragma operator, maybe someone might use it with OpenMP possibly
20:49:16 <alise> uriel7: I suppose you are brought here for the esoterica, not for the programming?
20:50:22 <alise> Then you are in the right place.
20:50:43 <zzo38> For programming or not, there is many things discussed in this channel
20:50:50 <zzo38> But the main topic is esoteric programming
20:50:51 <alise> Yeah, but very rarely esoterica :-P
20:51:16 <zzo38> But you can discuss other things too, it doesn't have to be about esoteric programming
20:52:31 <uriel7> was looking for palce to talk nothing more
20:52:39 <fizzie> Slereah: Shouldn't that be a mirmaid? I mean, it would make more sense in a wovel-categorisationary way. Or am I overthinking it?
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20:56:51 <alise> Gregor-W: Three holes in the ground.
20:56:56 <alise> uriel7: so what are your favourite esolangs?
20:58:34 <alise> Anyone have greppable logs? Gregor?
20:58:40 <alise> uriel7: Made any yourself? Written any programs?
21:00:14 <Gregor-W> alise: Mine aren't up to date as my home system isn't running.
21:00:46 <alise> That's okay; I'd just like you to grep for /wikti?onary/i, if that's alright, and provide a list of dates.
21:01:06 <Gregor-W> I'm also not near a computer that has them checked out :P
21:01:17 -!- uriel7 has quit (Quit: Q: How much does it cost to ride the Unibus? A: 2 bits.).
21:03:52 <fizzie> alise: There are quite many of those.
21:04:23 <alise> fizzie: ok; said by (ehird|tusho).*
21:04:52 <fizzie> Regrepping; for the record, 150 lines with /wikti?onary/i in them, I didn't yet uniq them to dates.
21:06:00 <Gregor-W> *flash of brilliance* the esoteric logs should be in the (hypothetical) esolangs Hackiki, then anybody could grep them from afar.
21:06:36 <alise> Gregor-W: Or... just make a web interface to it.
21:06:45 <Gregor-W> Yeah, but this would be more general :P
21:06:50 <Gregor-W> And more general is exactly equal to better.
21:07:03 <fizzie> 2008-04-20, 2008-06-13, 2008-08-22, 2008-09-21, 2008-09-24, 2009-05-19, 2009-06-07, 2009-08-02, 2009-08-18; they all seem to be mostly quoting some single word from there (mostly); but my logs are not completely complete.
21:07:18 <fizzie> Were you looking for something in particular?
21:07:27 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'wikti?onary' 08.*
21:07:27 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'wikti?onary' 09.*
21:07:27 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'wikti?onary' 10.*
21:07:30 <alise> What's that, then...
21:07:40 <alise> fizzie: Yes; my Wiktionary lookup tool.
21:07:55 <alise> It formatted them all nice-like, OED-style.
21:07:58 <fizzie> You need either \? or -E in the grep.
21:07:59 <AnMaster> okay this is hilarious: I have cups printing to a lpd server, which is actually cups-lpd on the same host, mapped to cups-pdf
21:08:14 <AnMaster> and this works. However, it does not from opengenera
21:08:35 <alise> 10.06.25:18:50:06 <alise> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fuck -- how on earth am i meant to present a definition of "fuck" to the user like this
21:08:37 <alise> looks like around this time
21:08:44 <alise> 10.06.25:19:19:16 <alise> Gregor: I just mangled Wiktionary into something readable.
21:08:58 <fizzie> Seems I wasn't present at that particular time.
21:10:09 <fizzie> I do have a lot of chatter on 2010-06-25, though; inexplicablity.
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21:10:18 <fizzie> Oh, right; I grepped for ehird|tusho, like you said, not alise.
21:10:50 <alise> Yeah, didn't realise it was that recent. Should have, of course.
21:11:00 <fizzie> WYGIWYAFAINGW, after all.
21:11:34 <fizzie> "What you get is what you ask for, and it's no good whining".
21:11:46 <fizzie> It was to pre-empt any whining; didn't think you'd be that gracious.
21:11:51 <fizzie> Sorry for that. Retroactively.
21:12:05 <alise> 18:52:05 <alise> " She shoved them up and together, pushing into me, forcing my foot to fuck her tits harder and harder while gasping as if I was shoving it deep into her body..."
21:12:08 <alise> 18:52:08 <alise> Yep, the OED would quote that.
21:12:08 <alise> 18:52:16 <alise> Classy, Wiktionary.
21:12:08 <alise> 18:52:17 <alise> Classy.
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21:15:30 <alise> [[In the Oxford Latin Dictionary, the word irrumo is defined "[t]o practise irrumatio on." Great. Irrumatio, less than helpfully, is "[t]he action of an irrumator." We finally learn that an irrumator is "[o]ne who submits to fellatio." And thus, after flipping your way through three different entries, you get a definition that, while described precisely enough (and better than its counterpart in the main Victorian Latin dictionary, "to commit beastly acts"
21:15:30 <alise> ), is completely wrong. An irrumator is the active, not the passive, participant. The real meaning of irrumo is something like "to fuck (someone) in the face, esp. as a way of asserting dominance"; it is frequently found in the locker-room talk of Catullus and also appears in Martial's scurrilous epigrams.]]
21:16:14 <alise> 19:04:58 <Gregor> PCC on Linux is a suckfest.
21:16:14 <alise> 19:05:04 <Gregor> And not the good kind.
21:17:38 <alise> 19:34:53 <alise> wikipedia, v. past tense of wipe.
21:17:38 <alise> 19:34:54 <alise> WHAT
21:17:38 <alise> 19:36:05 <alise> oh ha
21:17:38 <alise> 19:36:22 <alise> it picks up on the deletion notice saying "deleted" which is like ... wiping, i assume
21:17:38 <alise> 19:36:31 <alise> dunno
21:17:48 <alise> I propose we henceforth use "wikipedia" instead of "wiped".
21:17:57 <alise> I wikipedia my ass with toilet paper.
21:18:09 <alise> 19:36:44 <Gregor> "He told me to wipe off the dishes, so I wikipedia them for an hour or so but got tired of it."
21:18:12 <alise> Dammit, beaten to the punch
21:18:13 <fizzie> Based on the "insignificant part" fair-useness and so on, here's "fuck, v." in current OED; http://sprunge.us/ODbU -- that's one long definition.
21:18:32 <alise> fizzie: you have the electronic OED?
21:18:42 <fizzie> Via the university's proxy, yes.
21:18:52 <alise> also, I see they have given up on pretensions of conciseness. That is more an encyclopedia article.
21:18:59 <fizzie> We need to look up "fuck" all the time at work, you see.
21:19:16 <alise> http://pastie.org/1019589.txt?key=iveweg7njbmwqqdjqpnndg
21:19:25 <Gregor-W> "As a physicist, I don't really have much cause to use mice in my regular research, which mostly requires the use of theoretical math," said Dr. Thomas Huber, author of the 1996 study Mouse Elasticity And Kinetic Rebound In High-Acceleration Collisions. "But when I have the time, I like to send them flying into walls. Even just seeing them in a cage makes me feel kind of good inside. I like knowing I'm depriving them of their fre
21:19:43 <fizzie> It's a lot conciser if you hide the etymology and quotations, like the UI lets you do.
21:19:51 <alise> It scrapes ninjaword which scrapes Wiktionary. :P
21:20:04 <alise> also, "their fr" cuts off.
21:20:19 <Gregor-W> http://www.theonion.com/articles/worlds-scientists-admit-they-just-dont-like-mice,1256/
21:20:35 <alise> bouncebackability, n. the ability of a person or team to bounce back, that is, to return to good form after a period of not performing well: "By passing the test, after last years abysmal failure, he exhibited great bouncebackability."; the ability to recover from a past relationship.
21:21:07 <fizzie> Also the 1500-era quotations are best: "Ay fukkand lyke ane furious Fornicatour." Imagine calling someone a "furious Fornicatour"; classy!
21:21:26 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ python define.py xtianity
21:21:26 <alise> xtianity, n. the condition of being sane; reasonable and rational behaviour.
21:21:30 <alise> Yeah, Christianity is all that.
21:22:07 <alise> Did you mean sanity?
21:22:07 <alise> °The condition of being sane.
21:22:07 <alise> °Reasonable and rational behaviour.
21:23:15 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ python define.py xtianity
21:23:15 <alise> "xtianity" ain't no word I ever heard of!
21:23:15 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ python define.py wikipedia
21:23:15 <alise> "wikipedia" ain't no word I ever heard of!
21:25:28 <Gregor-W> Makes me feel like playing some country music.
21:26:10 <alise> Gregor-W: Gimme a word to look up.
21:28:36 <fizzie> The best part about wordnet is that before definition, it lists all words that are partof the same "sense":
21:28:40 <fizzie> 1. sleep together, roll in the hay, love, make out, make love, sleep with, get laid, have sex, know, do it, be intimate, have intercourse, have it away, have it off, screw, fuck, jazz, eff, hump, lie with, bed, have a go at it, bang, get it on, bonk -- (have sexual intercourse with; "This student sleeps with everyone in her dorm"; "Adam knew Eve"; "Were you ever intimate with this man?")
21:28:46 <alise> Gregor-W: antidisestablishmentarianism, n. a political philosophy opposed to the separation of a religious group ("church") and a government ("state"), esp. the belief held by those in 19th century England opposed to separating the Anglican church from the civil government.
21:28:47 <fizzie> We as a species certainly focus on that thing.
21:29:41 <alise> fuck, v. (often obscene sometimes extremely vulgar) To have sexual intercourse, to copulate: "I asked her if she wanted to fuck and she said yes, so we had sex together last night."; (often obscene sometimes extremely vulgar) To insert one's penis, or a dildo or other phallic object, into a specified orifice or cleft; n. (vulgar) An act of sexual intercourse: "That was a great fuck."; (vulgar) A sexual partner: "She's a good fuck."; int. expressing dismay
21:29:41 <alise> or discontent: "Oh, fuck! We left the back door unlocked."
21:30:14 <Gregor-W> alise: That last one isn't discontent, it's still the previous meanings.
21:30:38 <pikhq> It's just the imperative.
21:30:51 <pikhq> "Oh, have intercourse! We left the back door unlocked!"
21:30:54 <fizzie> "a specified orifice or cleft"; heh.
21:31:03 <alise> Or an unspecified one!
21:31:13 <alise> orifice, n. a mouth or aperture, as of a tube, pipe, etc.; an opening; as, the orifice of an artery or vein; the orifice of a wound.
21:31:17 <alise> cleft, n. an opening, fissure, or V-shaped indentation made by or as if by splitting; v. past tense of cleave.
21:31:24 <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse.
21:31:28 <alise> Involving open wounds.
21:31:28 <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
21:31:35 <alise> coppro: To clean yourself of all this dirty talk?
21:31:46 <coppro> yes.... let's go with that
21:31:57 <Gregor-W> `addquote <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
21:32:08 <HackEgo> 201|<alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
21:32:24 <alise> muggle, n. (in singular or plural dated) A marijuana cigarette; a joint; (slang) hot chocolate; v. (in geocaching) To remove, deface or destroy a geocache; (obsolete) To be restless.
21:33:12 <alise> pikhq: Minion Pro is too nice. Halp.
21:33:23 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:33:30 <Gregor-W> I'll ... specify your ... orifice ... or cleft ...
21:33:42 <fizzie> OED "muggle, n." variant 1: "Obs. rare. A tail resembling that of a fish."
21:33:53 <pikhq> alise: Solution: read the pdfTeX microtypography thesis, and then you will never be able to accept the typesetting in any other book.
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21:34:52 <alise> pikhq: How... how does that help?
21:35:09 <alise> pikhq: Did you know, the LaTeX minion includes the files that microtype needs. Oh yes.
21:35:16 <pikhq> alise: You won't be able to focus on the niceness of Minion Pro.
21:35:24 <fizzie> Also March 2010, draft entry: "In the fiction of J. K. Rowling: a person who possesses no magical powers. Hence in allusive and extended uses: a person who lacks a particular skill or skills, or who is regarded as inferior in some way." I guess they resent Wikipedia getting all the cool popular-culture references.
21:35:33 <pikhq> Instead, you'll focus on the pain of all other typesetting systems.
21:35:40 <fizzie> Soon there'll be dozen-page articles on Wookiee mating.
21:35:55 <pikhq> fizzie: The OED has actually been quite open to adding words.
21:35:56 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I don't know if Wikipedia has one.)
21:36:39 <pikhq> It generally takes a decent chunk of time to add, but it's not like they're *opposed* at all. They just want to be sure that it's going to be used outside of the work of fiction...
21:37:03 <pikhq> I wouldn't be too surprised if they had a mention of Dune under "spice".
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21:37:27 <pikhq> (the Spice must flow)
21:38:28 <alise> they generally don't cite such works
21:38:31 <alise> but they do include words from them
21:38:36 <AnMaster> I think I have priting in opengenera working
21:38:57 <AnMaster> however, I need to pass the option to disable cover page to make it work
21:39:10 <AnMaster> it fails with the default setting to create a cover page
21:39:12 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: So is their C-to-LISP compiler actually available? Does it work with semi-real code?
21:39:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:40:10 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I haven't got it to load. Load System c always auto completes to CL at the end when you press enter. Very strange bug. Especially since there is a file called c.system
21:40:30 <pikhq> alise: They cite first usage of a sense of a word if possible.
21:40:46 <pikhq> Well, first known print usage.
21:41:46 <alise> There is no compatibility level for the new extensions of tracking, additional
21:41:46 <alise> kerning, and interword spacing. Therefore, they can only be switched on or off,
21:41:46 <alise> or they may be activated by passing a set name to the option. By default, neither
21:41:46 <alise> feature is enabled.
21:41:50 <alise> Is there any reason not to turn these on?
21:42:57 <alise> [[En passant, it may be noted that Type 1 format and T1 encoding are in no other way related than that
21:42:58 <alise> both start with a ‘T’ and end with a ‘1’.]]
21:45:59 <alise> \usepackage[tracking,kerning,spacing]{microtype}
21:45:59 <alise> \usepackage[minionint,mathlf]{MinionPro}
21:46:01 <alise> IT IS SO BEAUTIFUL.
21:46:16 <pikhq> alise: Good to know.
21:46:35 <alise> Package microtype Warning: \nonfrenchspacing is active. Adjustment of
21:46:36 <alise> (microtype) interword spacing will disable it. You might want
21:46:36 <alise> (microtype) to add `\microtypecontext{spacing=nonfrench}'
21:46:36 <alise> (microtype) to your preamble.
21:46:54 <pikhq> Also, the reason for having them off by default is to allow you to get the same line numbers from a TeX document while adding microtype.
21:47:26 <pikhq> The idea being that you can get slightly better output without fucking anything up for bizarre purposes.
21:47:33 <pikhq> Sorry, that's more a reason for having them turn-off-able.
21:47:39 <pikhq> Not... Off by default.
21:49:19 * pikhq is not sure about that bit, though, alise.
21:49:49 <alise> I just did what it said and it shut up :P
21:49:55 <pikhq> alise: Okay, I found it.
21:50:32 <pikhq> alise: Non-French spacing keeps the convention that a space following a period is larger than others.
21:50:43 <alise> pikhq: Non-French is just British spacing according to microtype.
21:50:54 <alise> Oh my god. Minion's italic & is amazing.
21:51:09 <alise> It's of the "et" style, where the e is lowercase rather than curly like lowercase Greek epsilon.
21:51:22 <alise> But it isn't all jaggedy like some renderings of that form.
21:51:28 <pikhq> alise: That's the spacing in English in general.
21:51:48 <pikhq> One of those things that we all agree on.
22:02:36 <Flonk> why is there no active desktop in windows 7 >__>
22:04:21 <pikhq> Flonk: Because that is RAPE in UI form.
22:04:46 <Gregor-W> I'm disappointed that I can't make a fully-animated http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif be my background.
22:06:50 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:11:30 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:13:56 <pikhq> GAAAHWHYCANTANYTHINGDOVERTICALTEXTINJAPANESERIGHT
22:14:30 <pikhq> I'm sorry, I'm wrong. There is one thing that can.
22:14:37 <pikhq> Pango does vertical text right.
22:16:53 <pikhq> It doesn't merely support it, it actually does it... Typographically correctly.
22:17:03 <alise> Ooh, I could typeset The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect or Fine Structure.
22:17:07 <alise> Voting now commences; pikhq, Sgeo.
22:17:20 <alise> Mind, I'd have to read either beforehand. :-)
22:17:28 <Sgeo> Voting for what?
22:17:40 <zzo38> So if you type a long vowel mark, will it convert it to vertical long vowel mark if the text is being printed in vertical?
22:18:25 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, it selects the vertical variants of glyphs in fonts.
22:18:34 <alise> Sgeo: Which book to do; or rather, which to do first.
22:18:41 <pikhq> What's better is that it does *hanging punctuation* at the end of lines.
22:18:47 <zzo38> Does it do furigana?
22:19:10 <alise> Actually... a Παν語-based TeX derivative would be amazing.
22:19:16 <pikhq> I don't know if it does furigana.
22:19:19 <pikhq> alise: ... It would.
22:19:25 <alise> pikhq: (Pango is a transliteration of Παν語.)
22:19:46 <pikhq> alise: I can sort-of read Greek and I can read Japanese. ;)
22:19:54 <pikhq> And I'm also aware of Pango besides.
22:20:00 <alise> Right, it just isn't immediately obvious. :P
22:20:12 <pikhq> (read, for Greek, is != understand. :P)
22:20:35 <Sgeo> Fine Structure's rather long
22:20:38 <Sgeo> But would be nice
22:20:44 <Sgeo> Would that be legal, though?
22:21:07 <alise> So, Παν語-TeX would have Unicode support with full localisation, support multi-directional text, and render even Arabic properly.
22:21:18 <alise> It would also have the fine typography support of pdfTeX.
22:21:28 <alise> Sgeo: Legal if I asked Sam.
22:21:42 <alise> Several people took it upon themselves to create unofficial dead-tree versions of the story:
22:21:42 <alise> * Fine Structure (PDF, 1.60MiB) transcribed by AlmightyFjord
22:21:42 <alise> * Fine Structure (PDF, 857kiB) transcribed by Duncan Townsend
22:21:42 <alise> * Fine Structure (EPUB, 313kiB) transcribed by Daniel Vollmer
22:21:59 <alise> No reason I couldn't, then.
22:22:04 <zzo38> What does hanging punctuation means?
22:22:05 <alise> pikhq: Didn't you say Lulu can actually do good-quality hardbacks?
22:22:09 <alise> zzo38: presumably, instead of
22:22:26 <zzo38> alise: O, that's what it means. OK
22:22:30 <alise> that's just my guess, though
22:23:13 <alise> Sgeo: The first bit of Fine Structure I read was the person with ... X-Ray vision or something, who could also stick their hands through stuff and something, talking to this sciencey type about eir abilities.
22:23:19 <alise> Where does that come chronologically, out of interest?
22:23:30 <nooga> i'm looking for flatmates
22:23:42 <pikhq> zzo38: If punctuation would start a line during a paragraph, it is instead placed after the end of the previous line.
22:24:06 <pikhq> To be more specific, the not-bracket punctuation.
22:24:17 <pikhq> So, periods, commas, and the like.
22:24:26 <Sgeo> As far as chronology makes sense, around the beginning
22:24:42 <alise> Sgeo: I take it it is a somewhat abstract story. :-)
22:24:48 <Sgeo> There's one or two stories before that
22:24:58 <Sgeo> And one where "chronologically" doesn't make much sense
22:25:13 <Gregor-W> nooga: Living alone > living with people, always :P
22:25:24 <alise> For all I've heard about it I haven't heard one iota about the actual plot.
22:25:30 <pikhq> Another nice detail it covers is that text that shouldn't be vertical in vertically displayed text instead is rotated.
22:25:30 <alise> Gregor-W: /Unless/ these people are sex robots.
22:25:34 <alise> Literal sex robots.
22:25:52 <pikhq> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/202/498812683_2f01110063_o.png See the last example in this picture.
22:26:30 <pikhq> (the vertically-displayed "2006" is supposed to be that way; those are the full-width variants)
22:26:55 <alise> Review of typesetting mathematics in Minion: Pleasant-looking enough, but it's "too nice" for mathematics, as is common with most serifed fonts; it is too readable and not defined enough, and the pretty letterforms don't help.
22:27:14 <alise> Not to say it's ugly or unreadable: but something like Computer Modern just works better, because of the precise mechanicalness about it.
22:27:54 <alise> pikhq: Say, can you do Japanese in TeX next to some non-japanese?
22:28:59 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:29:17 <pikhq> alise: XeTeX or a lot of font hacking needed, but yes.
22:29:30 <alise> pikhq: The latter, please.
22:29:38 <alise> With babel I have Greek text working with the proper forms, not the mathematical ones.
22:29:44 <alise> \usepackage[greek, english]{babel}
22:29:45 <alise> {\greektext Pan}go
22:29:53 <Gregor-W> alise: WHERE'S MY CPP TURING MACHINE DAMN IT? :P
22:30:07 <pikhq> Babel does most of the layout work just fine; the issue is just getting a font installed.
22:30:11 <alise> However, there appears to be no Japanese support for Babel.
22:30:22 <alise> pikhq: I have Minion Pro. That probably does Japanese. I guess. Maybe.
22:30:24 <pikhq> It's "cjk" instead of Japanese.
22:30:55 <pikhq> Chinese, Japanese, and Korean have pretty much identical *typesetting* rules.
22:31:32 <pikhq> Install texlive's langcjk support.
22:31:48 <alise> p latex-cjk-japanese - Japanese module of LaTeX CJK
22:31:56 <alise> So what's that? How do I utilise that specificness?
22:32:09 <pikhq> It should get you babel support for CJK.
22:32:13 <alise> But the Japanese thing?
22:32:15 <pikhq> \usepackage[cjk]{babel}
22:32:16 <alise> There's other packages too.
22:32:21 <alise> So there is a Japanese-specific element.
22:32:32 <pikhq> I'm strongly confused.
22:33:04 <alise> p cjk-latex - installs all LaTeX CJK packages
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-all - installs all LaTeX CJK packages
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese - Chinese module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bkai00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bsmi00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:05 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gbsn00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:07 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gkai00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:09 <alise> p latex-cjk-common - LaTeX macro package for CJK (Chinese/Japan
22:33:11 <alise> p latex-cjk-japanese - Japanese module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:13 <alise> p latex-cjk-japanese-wadalab - type1 and tfm DNP Japanese fonts for latex
22:33:15 <alise> p latex-cjk-korean - Korean module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:17 <alise> p latex-cjk-thai - Thai module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:19 <alise> p latex-cjk-xcjk - XeTeX module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:21 <alise> Flood, yes, but I hope that explains.
22:33:23 <alise> CJK is a macro package for LaTeX. This package gives you the possibility to
22:33:25 <alise> include Japanese text in your (La)TeX documents. Install
22:33:27 <alise> latex-cjk-japanese-wadalab for pretty printing.
22:33:31 <alise> Install hbf-kanji48 if you want to use bitmap fonts in your documents.
22:33:35 <alise> Have a look at latex-cjk-common for a more detailed description.
22:33:37 <alise> And [cjk] doesn't work.
22:34:43 <pikhq> And why is Thai part of CJK? It has completely different conventions.
22:34:55 <alise> pikhq: THIS is just why Παν語-TeX must be done :-)
22:35:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:44:20 <cpressey> ok, there's no way i'm going to be able to read all this backwash
22:45:08 <alise> It's mostly typography stuff; but also my dictionary tool.
22:45:14 <alise> OED-style definitions instantly!
22:45:51 <alise> cpressey: define.py -- http://pastie.org/1067745.txt?key=zrx2wuv4p8fndsov9ghbww
22:46:00 <cpressey> alise: for your python parsing problem which you are no longer working on -- or for ANY parsing problem in any language, really -- the trick is to decompose sentences like that into "these are the tokens" and "this is the grammar". Then implement the tokens with regexps in a scanner and implement the grammar with a RDP
22:46:46 <alise> cpressey: Yeah, I know.
22:47:26 <pikhq> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ Glee.
22:47:31 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:47:35 <cpressey> then it becomes basically trivial in python or anything else with half-decent string manipulation that you're willing to write a few functions in
22:48:01 <alise> pikhq: what's that free font used in the WP logo you mentioned?
22:48:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:48:25 <pikhq> alise: Linux Libertine O.
22:48:25 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, if only W3C standards actually mattered.
22:48:52 <alise> They are THE most ineffective standards organisation. Even ESO was better. :P
22:48:54 <pikhq> alise: Actually, it's a note published by the authors of the JIS standard on text layout.
22:49:24 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_of_Wikipedia Does. Not. Need. An. Article.
22:49:34 <pikhq> Which is mostly a standardisation of the principals of good CJK typesetting.
22:50:04 <pikhq> It just happened to be submitted to the W3C for their consideration.
22:50:29 <pikhq> It is, in short, "how to typeset Japanese: In English!"
22:51:30 <Gregor-W> English always pwns ur language.
22:52:06 <alise> pikhq: How to typeset Japanese ... in Korean!
22:52:16 <alise> The least-read document on the planet.
22:53:00 <pikhq> alise: Given that the animosity the Koreans have toward Japan rivals Brits' towards France... Yeah. :P
22:53:33 <alise> pikhq: But our rivalry with the French is mostly just joking; there's an awful lot of Korean racism against the Japs.
22:53:44 <alise> And yes, I will continue saying Japs because as a word it amuses me. (Nigger nigger nigger.)
22:54:16 <pikhq> alise: Well. Yeah, that's because it's old history for you...
22:54:27 <pikhq> alise: Imagine if the Norman invasion were about 70 years ago.
22:54:44 <alise> You know, we don't hate the Germans. :P
22:55:08 <pikhq> The Germans didn't assert that your language was a dialect of German and thereby try to exterminate your language.
22:57:17 <alise> oklopol: Nigger-faggot.
22:57:28 <alise> this is truly a high point for this channel
22:57:45 <oklopol> graph rewriting grammars are so cool
22:58:07 <oklopol> maybe i could make a formal computational model out of graphica and get it published
22:58:53 <CakeProphet> so I just got an idea for a language that's not really all that esoteric at all
22:59:11 <alise> we all do that sometimes. unnatural, filthy; bury it.
22:59:15 <alise> oklopol: or out of clue
22:59:44 <CakeProphet> prototype IO. strong, static, inferred, and optional typing.
23:00:05 <oklopol> math people find it interesting usually
23:00:16 <oklopol> CakeProphet: that sounds really nigger to me
23:00:28 <alise> "Plan To Start Little Stationery Store Too Sad For Bank To Deny Loan" --The Onion
23:00:29 <oklopol> does it have a funny syntax?
23:00:31 <CakeProphet> essentially I'm considering the possible of having a dynamically typed language with a static type checker, in essence.
23:00:48 <alise> yeah i think CakeProphet sounds like a faggot nigger
23:00:52 <alise> i mean the cake is like totally flamboyant
23:00:58 <oklopol> maybe you could have "if" be "LOLWHATIF"
23:00:59 <alise> and as we all know jesus was a prophet and black soooo
23:01:03 <alise> basically he's FaggotNigger.
23:01:12 <alise> oklopol: or while be HENCEFORTHWHEREAS
23:01:14 <nooga> i'm looking for a way to make some kind of 'jail', that you can connect to via ssh but you cannot use sockets from inside and you can read/tty/S
23:01:18 <alise> CakeProphet: you can't deny it
23:01:23 <CakeProphet> is this what our beloved channel has come to?
23:02:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:02:05 <CakeProphet> but I have a feeling other people in this channel (ahem, alise) would have better ideas on how to do OO correctly, and so I think discussing it would be worthwhile.
23:02:31 <oklopol> alise: how FaggotNigger is GreaseMonkey tho :DD
23:02:36 <alise> Yeah, but we'd rather say "nigger" a lot.
23:02:40 <CakeProphet> the way I imagine it working is simply through operators. obj1 + obj2
23:02:41 <alise> oklopol: haha wow that works perfectly.
23:02:50 <alise> CakeProphet: if that isn't addition don't say +
23:03:06 <CakeProphet> alise: it's not, and yes...the syntax is just for brainstorming
23:03:14 <alise> therefore don't say +
23:03:22 <alise> say @ or : or something :P
23:03:39 <oklopol> alise doesn't like needless overloading
23:03:46 <CakeProphet> alise: I don't think it matters for conversation. I assure you I will not make another Python.
23:03:53 <Gregor-W> ...................................
23:04:09 <cpressey> what a gawdaefully written proof. (that RH thing)
23:04:34 <CakeProphet> alise: I don't know if you knew. But + means everything in Python
23:04:41 <alise> it is pretty awful
23:04:48 <alise> his "laws of form" are even worse though cpressey
23:04:54 <alise> cpressey: http://lawsofform.org/ideas.html
23:05:08 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Form does some sort of attempt at decoding it and giving it mathematical coherence
23:05:11 <cpressey> the "laws of form" i don't mind so much if they're not passed off as something they're not, but i guess they are
23:05:19 <alise> oh i forgot i found laws of form from your site
23:05:43 <alise> in the esoteric section
23:05:46 <alise> cpressey: he also claims to have proved
23:05:49 <alise> - four colour theorem
23:05:51 <alise> - goldbach conjecture
23:05:51 <CakeProphet> so... what other composition operators are there? and what about implementation? Can you efficiently do logical combinations of dynamic objects without using massive amounts of hash tables?
23:05:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:06:06 <alise> he also claimed that the Appel, Haken & Koch proof of the four-colour theorem was incorrect.
23:06:15 <alise> pretty sure he's just a crank who reinvented boolean logic with circles
23:06:21 <cpressey> i need to put trivialism and that ultrafinitist mathematician in there too now i guess :)
23:06:48 <alise> The ultrafinitist is Doron Zeilberger.
23:06:54 <alise> Trivialism is a joke, I'm /pretty/ sure.
23:07:11 <CakeProphet> ultratrivialism must be distinguished trivially from trivialism
23:07:18 <oklopol> boolean logic with circles?
23:07:28 <alise> cpressey: Some extra kookiness: paraconsistent logics (trivialism is a parody of these).
23:07:31 <cpressey> What, and Zeilberger *isn't* a joke? Oh my.
23:07:46 <alise> Graham Priest is especially a devotee.
23:07:49 <alise> cpressey: He sort of jokes about everything.
23:08:04 <alise> He's not actually stupid -- he's done some valuable work like Zeilberger's algorithm --
23:08:08 <alise> but he's definitely kooky.
23:08:16 <alise> He's a fun read. Just not one to take seriously.
23:08:33 <oklopol> what does zeilberger's okay i'll google
23:08:36 <CakeProphet> so I guess +/alise-(@,:) could be a non-commutative operation.
23:08:39 <alise> "In my eyes Connect-Four is much deeper than, say, K-theory. Of course, K-theory is deeper than the Win-In-One-Move problems, and perhaps even than the Win-In-Three-Moves problems, but definitely not deeper than the Win-In-Five-Moves problems in this book." -- Zeilberger
23:08:44 <alise> oklopol: the ultrafinitist
23:08:57 <CakeProphet> where you specify that one object is the delegate of the new object.
23:09:22 <oklopol> alise: i know, i was gonna ask what his algorithm ...
23:10:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:10:00 <alise> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ZeilbergersAlgorithm.html
23:11:03 <CakeProphet> and then : could be direct, commutative combination
23:11:35 <alise> http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarim/mamarimPDF/real.pdf
23:11:40 <cpressey> CakeProphet: What are you talking about?
23:11:41 <alise> is Zeilberger's most famous ultrafinitist thing
23:11:44 <alise> and the most kooky
23:12:02 <CakeProphet> cpressey: prototype object-oriented language. operators that combine objects together logically.
23:14:07 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I wonder if you could define public/private as a combination.
23:14:09 <alise> It is utter nonsense to say that 2 is irrational, because this presupposes that it exists, as a
23:14:09 <alise> number or distance. The truth is that there is no such number or distance. What does exist is
23:14:09 <alise> the symbol, which is just shorthand for an ideal object x that satisfies x^2 = 2.
23:14:33 <CakeProphet> that is so much bullshit in one sentence. it's unbelievable.
23:14:37 <alise> Pythagorean theorem is not c^2 = a^2 + b^2 , but rather c^2 = a^2 + b^2 + O(h).
23:14:44 <alise> CakeProphet: i know, isn't zeilberger fun?
23:14:50 <alise> in fact he's the most intelligent bullshitter i know of.
23:14:54 <nooga> "IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING REALLY DEEPLY, YOU SHOULD PROGRAM IT."
23:15:23 <CakeProphet> so... is private sort of like a... binding operation?
23:15:35 <alise> pikhq: I need a stylistic opinion!
23:15:43 <CakeProphet> you could take one object of private members, and one object of public members
23:16:15 <alise> pikhq: Should the name of the λ-calculus be written with a mathematical, italic lambda, i.e. $\lambda$-calculus, or the actual textual, roman (regular, not actually roman :P) Greek letter lambda, as in {\greektext l}-calculus?
23:16:19 <alise> I believe the latter; it flows more nicely.
23:17:11 <pikhq> alise: Latter. Definitely latter.
23:17:40 <alise> And dammit I want Παν語-TeX.
23:18:24 <cpressey> CakeProphet: bind an attribute to the set of objects that can see it
23:18:29 <alise> pikhq: "This document was typeset by Παν語-\TeX using \AmS-\LaTeX."
23:18:39 <alise> Anything that can set those bytes correctly receives my undying love.
23:18:55 <alise> Properly as in "with Pango".
23:18:59 <CakeProphet> cpressey: right, so one object represents a private set of attributes, another represents the public set accessing it.
23:19:03 <alise> I can't trust XeTeX; especially its OS X lineage.
23:19:17 <oklopol> http://www.laws-of-form.net/lof/pdf/Denjoy_proof.pdf <<< i can't get this open, someone copy paste it on irc plz
23:19:22 <CakeProphet> there isn't really inheritance, so protected would be delegate based.
23:20:31 <CakeProphet> or perhaps I am trying to make too many things operators? :P
23:20:31 <alise> pikhq: OTOH, modifying TeX like that is hell.
23:20:41 <alise> pikhq: In fact... perhaps a LuaTeX derivative would be the most profitable.
23:20:45 <oklopol> why latter, i mean the name comes from the fact the lambda is actually used in the mathematical notation
23:21:02 <oklopol> or would you use the text lambda for that too?
23:21:11 <alise> oklopol: because the italic, mathematical lambda is more a variable symbol
23:21:14 <nooga> CakeProphet: enable custom operators
23:21:18 <alise> than the actual lambda symbol used, which was an extension of ^
23:21:24 <alise> (because ^ wasn't distinct enough or something)
23:21:34 <alise> plus, it disrupts the flow of text.
23:21:58 <CakeProphet> I was actually going to borrow a lot from Haskell, but in the context of a non-functional paradigm.
23:22:33 <CakeProphet> I was wondering if ternary operators would be reasonable.
23:22:38 <oklopol> also when reading lambda calculus, i'm not sure it's crucial the flow of text doesn't get interrupted, you won't be reading long snippets anyway
23:22:47 <CakeProphet> I think it would. As long as no unary or binary operators conflict in name.
23:22:58 <oklopol> every operator could be ternary
23:23:07 <oklopol> you'd get three times more stuff done
23:23:49 <alise> pikhq: Opinion: (\emph{...}) or \emph{(...)}?
23:23:58 <CakeProphet> so a ternary operator would in effect bind TWO names.
23:24:09 <alise> The latter seems to flow better.
23:24:11 <oklopol> yeah every operator has a comment track, (5 * (3 + 4 ;; the sum of three and four, which is 7) ;; we multiply 5 by 7 to get 35)
23:24:13 <CakeProphet> to prevent headaches with parsing ambiguity.
23:24:39 <alise> pikhq: On the other hand, ``\emph{...}'' is obviously the correct form.
23:24:52 <alise> <oklopol> also when reading lambda calculus, i'm not sure it's crucial the flow of text doesn't get interrupted, you won't be reading long snippets anyway
23:24:52 <cpressey> That Bipolar Lisper article is way worse than that kook RH proof, though.
23:24:55 <alise> reading the /name/ lambda-calculus
23:24:57 <alise> not lambda calculus itself
23:25:15 <oklopol> yeah sorry <--^---^--- idiot
23:25:23 <oklopol> ^ means the arrow jumps over a word
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23:25:42 <CakeProphet> oklopol: I wonder what kind of operator <--^---^--- would be in Haskell?
23:25:53 <cpressey> Yegge is always a hair snotty for my taste though
23:26:33 <oklopol> CakeProphet: i have a hunch
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23:27:29 <CakeProphet> I wish @ and ' were valid operator character in Haskell. Then we could have the @-,-'- operator
23:27:41 -!- tombom has joined.
23:28:02 <Gregor-W> CakeProphet: They are in Plof! :P
23:30:02 <cpressey> "Pick Scheme, and you have to pick a Scheme" -- wtf? This is like when Stanislav said Scheme's libraries "weren't standardized"
23:31:28 <CakeProphet> ^.^ -- the strict side-effect operator. happy faces for all.
23:31:33 <alise> pikhq: You'd like Minion's quote marks; they're set so tightly that "Foo," and "Foo", look almost identical.
23:31:43 <alise> <cpressey> Yegge is always a hair snotty for my taste though
23:31:45 <alise> he's getting better
23:32:15 <alise> pikhq: This can be controlled, however.
23:33:31 <alise> When using LaTeX's \maketitle, this produces hideously classy results:
23:33:36 <alise> \title{\textssc{Some Title}}
23:33:40 <alise> \author{\textsc{My Name}}
23:33:48 <alise> (requires Minion Pro for ssc)
23:34:18 <cpressey> I wonder if I'll get time to work on something this weekend, and if so, wtf I should work on
23:34:32 <alise> cpressey: So you have internet on weekends now?
23:34:36 <cpressey> It's partly time, partly brain power
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23:35:27 <cpressey> Don't generally need internet for my projects.
23:35:37 <cpressey> Though having access to Java docs might be nice.
23:35:52 <alise> Why don't you have internet, again?
23:36:02 <cpressey> Because I live in a cardboard box.
23:36:58 <cpressey> Because I am a brilliant failure.
23:37:05 <alise> pikhq: Aww, optical sizings don't work with my Minion package.
23:37:09 <cpressey> Lisp is the flag I wave, you see.
23:37:12 <alise> cpressey: Can you not even receive 3G signal there? :P
23:37:21 <alise> ! Font T1/MinionPro-OsF/m/n/17.28=MinionPro-Subh-osf-t1 at 17.28pt not loadable
23:37:21 <alise> : Metric (TFM) file not found.
23:40:28 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> I wish @ and ' were valid operator character in Haskell. Then we could have the @-,-'- operator <-- um @ isn't? let me check
23:40:51 <oerjan> !haskell let a @+ b = a + b in 2 @+ 2
23:41:39 <oerjan> ' on the other hand is afair a _letter_ character, except at the beginning
23:41:49 <oklopol> i would like to inform you all that i just fixed an error in Gregor's plof implementation using my penis
23:41:57 <cpressey> !haskell let a @-,-'- b = a + b in 2 @-,-'- 2
23:41:58 <oerjan> the , in there won't work, either
23:42:27 <oerjan> cpressey: ' and , are illegal. @--- should work, however
23:42:30 <Gregor-W> He didn't fix it, he just identified it.
23:42:48 <cpressey> !haskell let a @-|-+- b = a + b in 2 @-|-+- 3
23:42:58 <cpressey> Sort of an oddly symmetrical rose, but
23:43:12 <oklopol> Gregor-W: that's the hard part, the rest is just monkey work right
23:43:19 <oerjan> (' at the beginning starts a character constant, ' otherwise is permitted in things like x')
23:43:31 <oklopol> clickety clickety change this code here i'm a monkey i'm a monkey
23:43:43 <cpressey> There might be Unicode widgetyglyphs that could sub for , and '
23:45:13 <cpressey> Probably not going to work on esolang this weekend, not enough brain left. Might finish reading Also Sprach Zarathustra.
23:45:44 <oklopol> cpressey: well that's why i use Gregor-W, i just like the part where i write penis penis in a textbox and identify an error
23:45:57 <oerjan> alise: @ despite appearances is a reserved _word_ (operator-like word), not a reserved character, so it doesn't count as special inside other operators. many other things like -- and \ are similar, afair. but somethings work like actual punctuation, like brackets, semicolons and commas. iirc.
23:48:19 <oerjan> since haskell tries hard not to allow two operators to be consecutive, it's not often noticable whether you think of them as characters or words. i think.
23:48:34 <cpressey> good mush night folks mush mush mush splat
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23:49:01 <oerjan> (that may be one reason _why_ haskell disallows prefix/suffix operators (except -). i don't recall seeing it explicitly, though.
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23:51:39 <alise> Gahwhat?! I broke Minion.
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23:54:05 -!- augur has joined.
23:54:07 * oerjan declares today's logs too long to read all through
23:54:32 <oklopol> well all of it was complete bullshit anyway
23:54:48 <oklopol> i don't really remember any of it
23:54:52 <oklopol> i was sooooooooooooooo drunk
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23:58:16 <oerjan> as long as you weren't drank
23:58:55 <oklopol> well... actually i *kind of* was :DDDD
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00:10:27 <alise> "The new Mac Pro. With up to 12 cores of processing power, it’s the fastest Mac ever."
00:10:31 <alise> Abuh. Resist urge to purchase.
00:13:55 <alise> (Okay, that took very little effort actually.)
00:14:03 <alise> (Looks like my disassimilation went quickly.)
00:14:30 * pikhq both wants to eat and cannot compel self to make something
00:14:55 <alise> pikhq: eat plastic!
00:14:59 <alise> it's nutritious and NUTRITIOUS!
00:19:10 <nooga> pikhq: eat raw food
00:21:03 <AnMaster> alise, Get a Intel server board, a case, some disks, a few fans, and a GPU and you get the same performance for less than half the price
00:21:36 <AnMaster> still less than half the price
00:21:46 <alise> AnMaster: Well, yeah, if all you care about is raw hardware performance. (Which is, in this case, true; but my point stands.)
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00:22:02 <AnMaster> alise, why would you care about anything else than that?
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00:22:19 <alise> I refuse to answer ...
00:22:19 <AnMaster> what else is there to care about? Being a mac hippie?
00:22:31 <alise> Now you're just trolling: you know I dislike Apple.
00:22:49 <alise> So the only possible point of that statement -- to ridicule my like of Apple -- does not exist; you are trolling.
00:22:56 <AnMaster> alise, http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/iProduct.gif
00:23:09 <AnMaster> alise, no, I'm not trolling you
00:23:28 <AnMaster> alise, which is a lot more fun
00:24:00 <alise> Yes; you're trolling Apple by saying "mac hippie" somewhere entirely other than Cupertino. Do you even understand how this sort of stuff works? You can't troll someone who isn't listening. Do you even know what "trolling" means?
00:24:41 <AnMaster> alise, a far out idea for something else than raw performance: the case design
00:24:54 <AnMaster> and um, not having to put together the parts on your own
00:25:13 <alise> Shut up. You're not making intelligent socio-political commentary about Mac users.
00:25:13 <AnMaster> probably buying a comparable HP server or such would still be way cheaper
00:25:27 <AnMaster> alise, ... that's an impossible task :P
00:26:07 <AnMaster> alise, btw are those apple xserver thingies equally over-priced?
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00:26:23 <AnMaster> and is that why you never see them in data centers?
00:26:56 <alise> I've made a New Midnight's Resolution; and that is to not respond to anything blatantly provocative and/or trolling in a very stupid way from you.
00:27:11 <alise> So, good luck with that.
00:27:14 <AnMaster> alise, "<AnMaster> alise, btw are those apple xserver thingies equally over-priced?" was actually a serious question
00:27:21 <alise> They're expensive.
00:27:35 <alise> Whether they are overpriced is up to you; they're certainly for institutions with a lot of cash. They /are/ in use.
00:27:45 <alise> Just not in data centres; more in processing labs and stuff.
00:28:03 <CakeProphet> Python -- derived from the verb pythein, "to rot"
00:28:09 <AnMaster> alise, because most people who 1U servers probably care a LOT more about raw power than someone who buys a mac pro.
00:28:42 <alise> CakeProphet: Oh snap.
00:29:10 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, how fitting for Monty Python was my first thought. How fit for the programming language python was my second.
00:29:12 <alise> Hmm, \#esoteric produces a distinctly unsatisfactory rendering of the channel name with LaTeX.
00:29:23 <CakeProphet> quick, someone tell me what style of columns the Parthenon had.
00:29:59 <alise> AnMaster: Minion Pro.
00:30:07 <alise> But it's more the...
00:30:08 <AnMaster> alise, try it in CMR, does it look better there?
00:30:10 <alise> I think it needs small caps.
00:30:19 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I am however curious as to why you wondered about that
00:30:23 <alise> AnMaster: it won't; it's not a font issue. Besides, all the glyphs are perfectly reasonable and professional. This is not a font issue.
00:30:27 <alise> This is a typesetting issue.
00:30:39 <alise> AnMaster: No. There is no point.
00:30:46 <alise> \textsc{\#esoteric} is almost correct, but the letter spacing is too large.
00:31:04 <alise> You just hate my apparent hate of CMR and thus try to push CMR even when it's irrelevant.
00:31:27 <AnMaster> alise, in the context of latex CMR is quite relevant
00:31:39 <alise> But there's no reason to say "try CMR" if it's nothing to do with font.
00:31:39 <pikhq> IIRC, you felt that CMR is the only acceptable Didone font...
00:31:50 <alise> pikhq: Which it, of course, is. An opinion I believe you share.
00:31:55 <pikhq> (which of course it is)
00:31:57 <CakeProphet> I don't really get why typesetting is interesting.
00:31:57 <AnMaster> alise, I never claimed you should use it as a font for GUI elements
00:32:24 <alise> CakeProphet: Then I kindly suggest you don't bother those of us who do think it is.
00:32:30 <alise> I probably don't consider many of your hobbies interesting.
00:32:41 <pikhq> CakeProphet: You need to read more well-typeset text.
00:32:49 <alise> {\large\#}esoteric % this is good
00:32:56 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I think LaTeX with microtype does a good job at it. I leave the rest to it
00:33:05 <AnMaster> it looks good and I don't want to fiddle with details
00:33:52 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Yes, well-typeset text will use serif fonts for most of it.
00:34:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless for screen reading
00:34:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, I consider type setting a solved problem: LaTeX + CMR + Microtype
00:34:40 <alise> I love how AnMaster thinks that one type fits /all purposes/; that it's spelled "type setting", and that one type fits /all purposes/.
00:34:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, for low-DPI usage a sans serif font is often preferable.
00:34:53 <AnMaster> alise, it fits everything I type
00:35:00 <alise> It's like there's some retarded part of his brain that really doesn't understand what typefaces do to text. Wait, that's all of his brain.
00:35:17 <AnMaster> alise, also I think it doesn't matter if I spell it "type setting" or "typesetting" on IRC. Hell English is inconsistent already
00:35:22 <pikhq> Though I've found that Deja Vu Serif, hinted, is *very* readable.
00:35:30 <alise> AnMaster: i totly agre LOL fuk u english
00:35:38 <alise> pikhq wtf??? r dese esolangs
00:35:38 <pikhq> (as a screen font)
00:35:43 <alise> u dont no fuckshit bout languages
00:35:48 <AnMaster> alise, you fail at trolling however
00:36:00 <alise> you fail at knowing what trolling is and when it is intended.
00:36:06 <AnMaster> alise, like you fail at trolling augur for how he types :P
00:36:18 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I kill people for MS Comic Sans.
00:36:22 <augur> AnMaster: thats because i type awesome
00:36:41 <pikhq> I will (barely) make an exception for use in comic lettering.
00:36:57 <CakeProphet> http://julianhansen.com/index.php?/alternative-type-finder/
00:36:59 <pikhq> (where it is *appropriate*, though not the best choice of font, IMO)
00:37:07 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Though I've found that Deja Vu Serif, hinted, is *very* readable. <-- agreed. the whole Dejavu family, when hinted, is very good for on-screen reading
00:37:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Shit for printing, but quite nice on-screen.
00:37:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, I use CMR for printing ;P
00:40:04 <alise> Frutiger is a nice font but the NHS use it.
00:40:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, to me it makes no difference
00:40:26 <alise> AnMaster: and that is why you do not have the qualifications to call typesetting a "solved problem".
00:40:35 <alise> which is btw a huge insult to the very skilled and careful typographers through the ages.
00:40:36 <nooga> national health service?
00:40:42 <alise> *national hell service
00:40:58 <nooga> mauhaha, you should check it here in PL
00:41:04 <CakeProphet> alise: I think you're one of the easiest people to troll ever.
00:41:25 <pikhq> alise: Well, the boring parts of typesetting *are* a solved problem. :)
00:41:43 <alise> CakeProphet: i've not been trolled.
00:41:48 <alise> i know exactly what AnMaster is trying to do
00:41:49 * AnMaster forces alise to typeset whatever he is typesetting in Zapfino
00:41:55 <alise> i'm just talking shit about him like always
00:42:08 <augur> anyone a big bang theory fan?
00:42:18 <AnMaster> alise, yes you usually jut talk shit
00:42:23 <CakeProphet> The entrance to the Acropolis that used both Doric and Ionian columns was the...
00:43:51 <coppro> woot I finally have irssi up
00:44:04 <alise> i don't hate niggers just 'cuz they be niggers man
00:44:50 <alise> no that's the faggots
00:45:27 <nooga> oh no, please stop
00:46:41 <nooga> I'm allergic after one weird (luckily not close) encounter
00:46:56 <augur> has anyone reminded you guys recently that alise is like a small version of David Deutsch?
00:47:03 <cheater99> well go on, nothing to be ashamed of
00:47:29 <AnMaster> <coppro> woot I finally have irssi up <-- what about it?
00:47:33 <alise> nooga was /trying/ to have sex with a cat covered in peanuts
00:47:48 <augur> how would you cover a cat in peanuts
00:47:55 <augur> they'd just fall off the cat
00:47:57 <nooga> besides, i hate cats
00:48:00 <AnMaster> coppro, I mean, after getting printing files to cups from opengenera to work, that feels like an insignificant feat :P No offence meant.
00:48:37 <alise> coppro: don't worry AnMaster is just so tech-superior to you
00:48:42 <alise> he solved a trivial problem too but his was more pointless!
00:48:45 <augur> alise: that would be rather difficult
00:48:56 <AnMaster> alise, actually I expect coppro to be able to pull this off too
00:49:55 <coppro> why, just the other day I broke a computer by joining a club
00:50:29 <cheater99> nooga got scared to talk about his life
00:52:44 <AnMaster> alise, besides, it wasn't trivial. Had to translate the ppd to settings that opengenera understands. Which is in a custom format of course
00:52:53 <AnMaster> and various other strange stuff
00:53:01 <nooga> AnMaster: what for?
00:53:11 <AnMaster> nooga, what for? To get printing to work?
00:53:19 <AnMaster> or do you mean "why get printing to work"
00:53:30 <AnMaster> or "why opengenera" or "why computers"
00:53:46 <nooga> why get printing to work under opengenera
00:54:27 <AnMaster> nooga, why not. And I wanted to be able to do hardcopies of my interactive lisp session easily ;P
00:54:44 <AnMaster> however, I haven't yet got that to work, since it adds a cover page. And that breaks things
00:55:08 <nooga> ffs, why are you playing with opengenera?! don't you have emacs? :|
00:55:47 <AnMaster> ooh I just had an idea. However it has the issue that documents will print in reverse
00:56:02 <AnMaster> could add a post processing step for that though
00:56:15 <nooga> ah, i see, you're the opengenera fan, like alise is a plan9 fan
00:56:30 <AnMaster> nooga, oh yes, I quite like plan9 too as well
00:56:49 <nooga> wait a second, plan9 is actually quite useful and at least boots natively on a modern pc
00:56:57 <AnMaster> nooga, both systems were commercial failures. Both were innovative.
00:57:10 <alise> opengenera was not innovative.
00:57:29 <alise> CakeProphet: also true
00:57:34 <AnMaster> alise, but I don't have a physical lisp machine, so I will have to take the second best
00:57:53 <cheater99> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-processor-collection-persian-rugs,10975.html
00:57:54 <AnMaster> and god damn, I never ever seen such a well documented system as genera
00:58:10 <CakeProphet> I have never heard of genera, but I have heard of plan 9
00:58:22 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, you heard of lisp machines?
00:58:29 <nooga> i like the idea of tty
00:58:43 <AnMaster> nooga, tty as in ttys on unix?
00:59:19 <AnMaster> nooga, why? I mean, it seems to me like something obvious that is just there.
00:59:29 <nooga> and i don't like plan9's idea of console
00:59:33 <AnMaster> it's like "I like the idea of RAM"
00:59:38 <nooga> but the rest of plan9 is okay
01:00:21 <AnMaster> I like many parts of plan9, but the user interface is not one of them. I like genera/opengenera's user interface though. You very quickly get used to scroll wheel doing nothing
01:00:27 <AnMaster> and then very quickly you stop missing it
01:00:36 <AnMaster> scrolling works quite differently but very well
01:01:12 <AnMaster> scroll wheel as well would be nice though.
01:01:24 <nooga> i tried to write a replacement for rio and, suprisingly, i even managed to display colorful rectangles on the screen
01:02:14 <AnMaster> nooga, I think there is a bit more than that to it :P
01:03:41 <alise> rio is the window multiplexer
01:04:06 <AnMaster> alise, does it draw the window borders?
01:04:12 <CakeProphet> so, anyone else know a lot about DSP? and also Haskell?
01:04:23 <AnMaster> alise, and handle dragging of borders and such?
01:04:28 <CakeProphet> because I want to figure out how to do DSP in Haskell, but so far I haven't been able to comprehend DSP libraries for Haskell.
01:04:36 <alise> AnMaster: but it is not structured like an x manager.
01:04:39 <CakeProphet> and think maybe I could do it myself pretty well?
01:04:49 <AnMaster> still, it is a window manager in my book
01:05:50 <alise> the basic strategy is pointing /dev/{screen,mouse,keyboard} of children to its own file then painter's algorithm
01:05:59 <alise> so in a way it is more involved than an x manager by completely engulfing windows
01:06:25 <nooga> http://www.facebook.com/ehird
01:06:28 <AnMaster> alise, besides I only asked if it was the WM. By pure chance both Window Manager and Window Multiplexer happens to fit that
01:06:31 <nooga> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:06:39 <nooga> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:07:00 <AnMaster> alise, so it is like a combination of a X WM and the actual X server?
01:07:22 <nooga> p9's gui is nothing like X
01:07:27 <alise> AnMaster: in a way. but the graphics hardware is handled by the drivers still.
01:07:30 <CakeProphet> I'm thinking Arrow would be a useful abstraction for digital signal processors?
01:07:39 <AnMaster> alise, and by this design hw acceleration OpenGL performance would suck under plan9, right?
01:07:42 <alise> it multiplexes a bunch of fake /dev/screens to the real /dev/screen with painter's algorithm basically.
01:07:50 <alise> AnMaster: yeah -- because summaries reveal all details.
01:08:05 <AnMaster> alise, indeed, that's a universal truth :P
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01:38:49 <alise> http://julianhansen.com/files/infographiclarge_v2.png
01:39:43 <alise> READABILITY? -> NO -> Didot
01:40:10 <nooga> AnMaster: just quoting Helmer from Von Trier's Kingdom
01:43:10 <Gregor> alise: I love the link to comic sans X-D
01:44:22 <alise> The Kingdom (Danish title: Riget) is an eight-episode Danish television mini-series, created by Lars von Trier in 1994, and co-directed by Lars von Trier and Morten Arnfred.
01:45:56 * oerjan recalls his first collaborator was a big fan of Riget
01:46:32 <Gregor> I'm a big fan of scratching my head and wondering why people care so much about fonts.
01:46:43 <alise> Typefaces, dammit, typefaces.
01:47:19 <oerjan> Gregor: i guess you need to care about esthetics first, right? *badum-tish* (/me doesn't really either)
01:47:19 <alise> A font is a component of a typeface: for instance Times New Roman is a typeface, where as 10pt Times New Roman, italic is a font.
01:47:35 <Gregor> I have zero capacity for aesthetics.
01:47:48 <Gregor> This is why today I was wearing a pink shirt with a peacock blue tie and a white hat :P
01:49:00 <nooga> Gregor: you're research fellow, right?
01:49:11 <Gregor> No, I don't have a fellowship.
01:49:16 <Gregor> But I'm usually a research assistant.
01:49:24 <Gregor> And presently I'm a research intern.
01:49:38 <alise> Research Fellowship of the Pseudo-Ring.
01:49:55 <Gregor> ... no. Not justified :P
01:49:58 <nooga> Gregor: your fashion
01:50:42 <Gregor> When I showed up for my first day at MSR, all the first-day interns (in all divisions) had to herd together first. When I went through one line, the woman checking things went "I'll bet you're in research. Go that way."
01:50:48 <AnMaster> <Gregor> This is why today I was wearing a pink shirt with a peacock blue tie and a white hat :P
01:52:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, however. if you are able to note that this means you don't have a capacity for aesthetics, then that means you either were told this, or realise that it isn't aesthetic. The latter would mean that you do in fact have a capacity for aesthetics!
01:52:51 <Gregor> The way I dress is regularly described as "garish" or "gaudy"
01:52:56 <alise> MMM. SPIKY SERIFS ARE NICE -> OK -> Swift
01:53:00 <alise> That's some multiple choice.
01:53:06 <Gregor> I figure I probably haven't figured it out by now :P
01:53:25 <alise> DO YOU LIKE FUTURA? -> YES -> Futura
01:53:29 <alise> That was unexpected.
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01:55:27 <AnMaster> Gregor, iirc you said you use your colour matcher to generate non-matching colours right?
01:55:45 <Gregor> I don't actually do that.
01:56:18 <AnMaster> Gregor, that would have been so cool
01:56:32 <oerjan> Gregor: YOU'VE BEEN LYING TO US
01:56:54 <Gregor> The problem is clothing matching is more complicated than colors, reflective properties can make two things that seem to match from one photo actually go terribly together.
01:57:41 <oerjan> hm so you actually need a ray tracer to do it properly? :D
01:58:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, as long as they don't turn out to go nicely together when they shouldn't
01:58:40 <Gregor> Fair enough when I'm aiming NOT to match I suppose :P
01:59:42 <AnMaster> Gregor, as with your clothes that is?
02:01:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, still you do have a sense for aesthetics. If you didn't you would be unable to even comment upon dressing without aesthetics!
02:01:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, the best you can manage is thus a limit towards zero
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02:04:09 <AnMaster> alise, what I don't get is how it can suggest typesetting a whole book in Baskerville
02:04:50 <AnMaster> okay, it is better than Zapfino or Bodoni by far, Still horrible for long sections of text
02:05:07 <alise> a /good/ digitised baskerville -- a GOOD one, bad ones are by far the majority --
02:05:28 <alise> for instance, Douglas Adams' works I suspect would be superb in a /good/ digitised baskerville.
02:05:47 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/BaskervilleSpec.svg <-- this is a good baskerville
02:05:52 <alise> AnMaster: Umm ... unless you're using metal type.
02:06:01 <alise> Then you're using a digitised font family.
02:06:05 <AnMaster> <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/BaskervilleSpec.svg <-- this is a good baskerville <-- this is like unreadable
02:06:12 <alise> You're like stupid.
02:06:20 <AnMaster> alise, no, I'm on like 114 dpi
02:06:32 <Gregor> "Pants goes against the Word of God"
02:06:36 <Gregor> -- http://amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/subpage209.html
02:06:53 <alise> Anyway, /any/ typeface will have a range of digitisations from crap to superb.
02:07:05 <alise> Baskerville is a subtle, old typeface; so it's a lot easier to get wrong.
02:07:10 <alise> And it certainly will never fit some works.
02:07:19 <AnMaster> alise, okay those straight-up lines in the B (you freaks probably have a special name for them) are much better than in the flow chart
02:07:21 <alise> But it's wonderful if tamed.
02:07:39 <alise> You know, I could call you a freak for having a Linux/OpenGenera obsession.
02:07:44 <alise> Gregor: it's true.
02:08:16 <pikhq> alise: My goodness Baskerville is a beaut.
02:08:38 <alise> AnMaster: The Baskerville in http://julianhansen.com/files/infographiclarge_v2.png is bold, by the way.
02:08:41 <alise> Just like all the other samples.
02:08:48 <alise> And, of course, it's crammed into very few pixels.
02:08:56 <alise> So it's understandable that it looks so ugly there.
02:09:12 <AnMaster> alise, that could explains why the more readable alternative to didot is in fact less readable
02:09:17 <alise> pikhq: The italic serifs are awesome.
02:09:52 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't look ugly there. Just unreadable for long text
02:09:58 <alise> AnMaster: Didot can be readable at very small pixel sizes because the renderer runs out of ways to make the horizontal lines ridiculously thin so it ends up making them more equal; you know, the reasonable thing to do.
02:10:11 <alise> Well, yeah, setting a book in all-bold, low-resolution type would be dumb. :P
02:10:34 <AnMaster> alise, I wouldn't claim Zapfino is ugly. Yet I would claim it is unreadable for long text.
02:11:36 <alise> Zapfino is actually quite ugly though,
02:11:53 <AnMaster> alise, not compared to the alternative
02:12:02 <AnMaster> and I don't think it is excessively ugly
02:12:44 <alise> Gregor: amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv is a joke, right?
02:12:52 <alise> http://www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/Download99.html
02:13:03 <Gregor> alise: It's never clear :P
02:13:04 <pikhq> If you want a vaguely calligraphic logo, *hire a bloody calligrapher*.
02:13:18 <pikhq> I guarantee it'll look better than whatever calligraphic font you find.
02:14:08 <AnMaster> alise, what do you think of Myriad?
02:14:28 <alise> AnMaster: It's... Apple Sans. It's a nice font, but...
02:14:34 <alise> You can never, ever use it without someone thinking "oh, Apple".
02:14:57 <alise> Apple use it for everything.
02:15:05 <alise> All the headings on their site, the "iPod" in their adverts, ...
02:15:13 <AnMaster> alise, I'm unable to tell that
02:15:25 <AnMaster> alise, that Eurostile looks nice
02:15:33 <AnMaster> reminds me of startrek logos hehe
02:15:50 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/EurostileSpec.svg
02:15:56 <alise> Proletariats are futuristic.
02:16:16 <AnMaster> not quite as much in that image
02:17:24 <AnMaster> Bodoni makes me think of Discworld. Think there was a dwarf with that name in "The Truth" (working at that press)
02:18:03 <AnMaster> alise, what is the type face used for the non-typeface boxes in that flow shart
02:18:09 <AnMaster> like the choices and the middle box
02:18:33 <alise> The answer is in the flowchart.
02:19:01 <alise> "I MUST SAY THAT THIS FLOWCHART IS LOOKING HOT".
02:20:00 <AnMaster> alise, I watched that movie once. Several years ago
02:20:30 <alise> Typeface, dammit, typeface.
02:20:48 <AnMaster> alise, font is shorter to type that typeface
02:21:44 <AnMaster> except I would seem like a typography geek then
02:22:04 <alise> The term is "typophile". ;)
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03:20:38 <alise> "For containers, there is a lot to say. So, I will not say anything for the moment."
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03:25:08 <nooga> how to set up ssh so that the user connects with a chrooted jail instead of main system hosting sshd?
03:26:54 <Gregor> nooga: Run sshd in the chroot
03:27:02 <nooga> that's what i thought
03:28:11 <nooga> chrooted system runs using a 80MB ramdisk :D
03:29:24 <Gregor> I've been trying to get a Debian chroot on my phone.
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03:50:49 <alise> stallman calls iphone/ipad igroan/ibad
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04:08:05 <Gregor> Ooooooh, I may actually have a working Debian chroot 8-D
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04:08:27 <Gregor> Again, ctrl+w != shift+w
04:09:45 <Gregor> What's a good WM for a very constrained screen size?
04:18:50 <Gregor> What's a good WM for a very constrained screen size WITH NO KEYBOARD
04:20:08 <Gregor> I don't want to use Matchbox just because you're all useless :P
04:21:02 <pikhq> On a more serious note: how do you feel about Twm?
04:21:55 <Gregor> I use twm pretty much whenever I can't have XFCE.
04:22:08 <Gregor> But that would suck for a constrained screen.
04:23:04 <pikhq> Hmm. Get a keyboard?
04:23:21 <pikhq> Actually. Are there any mouse-driven tiling WMs?
04:23:24 <pikhq> And if not, why not?
04:23:48 <Gregor> A thing I've checked in the past.
04:23:53 <Gregor> There aren't, and it's bizarre that there aren't.
04:24:04 <pikhq> Gregor, you've got another project!
04:24:14 <pikhq> You really need a patron.
04:24:17 <Gregor> I'm hypothetically adding VFS to Microcosm.
04:24:38 <pikhq> I'd offer, but I suspect I have fewer funds available than you.
04:24:52 <Gregor> I have loads of money, but can a person really have ENOUGH money?
04:25:04 <pikhq> Bill Gates has enough money.
04:26:26 <Gregor> I don't think Bill Gates has sufficient money to shuttle himself to the moon for a summer vacation.
04:27:21 <oerjan> stop there, before you start using diagonalization on the question
04:29:16 <pikhq> Hmm. How much would a moon mission cost?
04:29:30 <pikhq> More than $13 billion?
04:29:59 <Gregor> For a month or so of just hangin' out on the moon?
04:30:09 <pikhq> I think for that he could just about pay to have Apollo rebuilt and launched.
04:30:11 <Gregor> It's not a vacation if you go there, collect some rocks, hit a golf ball, and come back.
04:33:53 <Gregor> You've gotta have some time to relax poolside!
04:38:01 <alise> Sea of Tranquility!
04:38:03 <pikhq> 'know what has enough money?
04:38:10 <pikhq> The US Department of Defense.
04:38:39 <pikhq> We should convince them that there's oil on the moon so we can set up a military base there.
04:39:03 <pikhq> It'll be permanently settled until the Moon ceases to be.
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04:57:00 <alise> http://abstrusegoose.com/strips/oh_but_they_do_give_quite_alotta_fucks.PNG
05:03:38 <pikhq> Hrm. What's with the Chinese signature?
05:05:50 <Gregor> Shockingly, this phone does not make an ideal Debian system ...
05:06:09 <pikhq> Shocking. Positively shocking.
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12:41:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's just a specific case of poor website design.
12:44:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but as one who have searched for course lists on my university website a LOT...
12:44:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well they tend to have some "product list" easily available
12:44:40 <AnMaster> which might not be a lot of consumer products
12:44:50 <AnMaster> now, contact info, might be harder
12:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I had a horrible time trying to find contact info for Conway a while ago.
12:45:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, his game of life?
12:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> The address Princeton finally gave had been deactivated.
12:46:35 <AnMaster> I want a symbolics keyboard, with the usb mod
12:46:48 <AnMaster> I seen a picture of someone modifying it to connect over usb
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14:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Where did you ask Sgeo that question in the first place?
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14:23:19 <Flonk> I only asked about it here on #esoteric
14:25:54 <Flonk> oh, right, I asked if someone could help me with C++ on #IRP, and he redirected me to here
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14:50:14 <AnMaster> wtf. I used genera a bit too much recently, I wondered why delete didn't work. Delete acts like backspace there and backspace acts like left-arrow
14:50:28 <AnMaster> result: when it didn't work in linux first thought was "wtf, computer is frozen"
15:16:12 <nooga> they were powerful workstations
15:33:52 <AnMaster> does anyone know zzo's web server?
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16:57:14 <alise> http://www.cacaovm.org/ Huh, /another/ free JVM.
17:08:11 <alise> 02:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Kurt Gödel looks delightfully evil...
17:08:11 <alise> 02:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> He would be an ideal candidate for a Halloween costume.
17:08:15 <alise> I'm afraid he's dead.
17:08:33 <alise> 04:18:30 <AnMaster> vrml. How does one view it? For historical computing purposes.
17:08:33 <alise> 04:19:08 <AnMaster> tools available to me are: opengenera, ubuntu 7.10, ubuntu 10.04, current arch linux
17:08:38 <alise> yeah opengenera came with a vrml viewer.
17:19:15 <alise> On Perl 6: "I have never heard of a piece of software whose memory consumption dropped by 96% and startup time by 98% from the first alpha release to the first production release. That's what it would take to match perl5."
17:19:28 <alise> Looks like Rakudo Star is more like Rakudo LAME. :|
17:26:10 <AnMaster> alise, it did? I haven't found it then
17:26:26 <alise> AnMaster: From the FUTURE.
17:26:46 <AnMaster> alise, cl-http server contains vrml examples though
17:26:50 <alise> AnMaster: Hey, could you clone the vm, change the password then put up the files somewhere?
17:26:57 <alise> Rather than making us poor people go through the setup instructions >_>
17:27:52 <AnMaster> alise, I can't, you could steal it then
17:28:11 <alise> Just put a file in it saying "This can only be used if you legally own an OpenGenera license!" That provides you the same legal protection as anything (i.e. barely anything) :P
17:28:36 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I need to redo the VM. I did several things wrong. Oh and I keep the sys.sct directory in hg now
17:28:46 <AnMaster> alise, makes reverting stupid things easier
17:28:59 <AnMaster> needed it a few times when I messed up
17:29:15 <alise> I feel like using QEMU will be better than VirtualBox. VirtualBox is for emulating more conventional stuff without much ... you know, techy tweaking junk.
17:29:26 <alise> I'd say Bochs, but Bochs emulates at like half a Hz.
17:29:36 <alise> AnMaster: More realistic, for OpenGenera :-)
17:29:48 <pikhq> alise: Bochs is faster than *that*...
17:30:01 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I have no clue if this VM will work on OSE virtualbox
17:30:02 <pikhq> Still, it's not exactly speedy.
17:30:09 <AnMaster> alise, oh and I have nowhere I could put 2.4 GB
17:30:09 <alise> pikhq: Sorry; three quarters of a hz.
17:30:15 <AnMaster> which is what df -h in the VM reports
17:30:19 <alise> Whence the 2.4 GiB?
17:30:25 <alise> AnMaster: inaccurate
17:30:29 <alise> VirtualBox lazily allocates disk
17:30:36 <alise> most of that won't actually be on your disk, I bet.
17:30:41 <AnMaster> alise, correct. The actual image is larger
17:30:42 <alise> Unless you mean used.
17:30:58 <alise> Oh well. Link me to your guide -- is it the Moast Korrekt version?
17:31:20 <AnMaster> alise, perhaps. I haven't documented getting hardcopy with cups-pdf though.
17:31:27 <AnMaster> alise, reason is that it only works partly
17:31:34 <AnMaster> like, you must disable cover page
17:31:35 <alise> I don't care about that.
17:32:04 <alise> Incidentally, this is the craziest chain of emulation ever: VM running x86 Ubuntu running a Tru64 Unix on Alpha emulator running Genera.
17:32:08 <AnMaster> alise, while http://sprunge.us/fAfd is correct afaik, there could be errors
17:32:13 <alise> And Genera is an operating system in and of itself.
17:32:16 <AnMaster> and I have not proof read it much
17:32:28 <alise> That's alright, I can sling it.
17:33:04 <alise> Anyway, I think DKS is such a rabid salesman that he can't get angry at people downloading it.
17:33:17 <alise> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
17:33:17 <alise> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
17:33:19 <alise> -- comment on the torrent
17:33:33 <alise> Just another opportunity for a sale1
17:33:41 <alise> I think he realises nobody's going to buy Open Genera anyway.
17:33:47 <AnMaster> alise, oh and to load cl-http, when everything else in there is done do: Load System CL-HTTP
17:34:01 <AnMaster> you will get 500 Internal Error after that
17:34:04 <alise> AnMaster: *splurts drink everywhere*
17:34:05 <alise> The VLM is a product for DEC Alpha / Tru64 Unix. There are experimental VLM versions for Linux/x64 and, newer, Mac OS X (x64).
17:34:15 <alise> Oh my god oh my god oh my god.
17:34:19 <alise> there's a native 64-bit linux version
17:34:31 <AnMaster> alise, um. that Linux/x64 is the one I used
17:34:31 <alise> andrewnth: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/c8sjz/what_are_your_favorite_and_mostused_cl_projects/c0qxfjv
17:34:41 <alise> you're using the tru64 version
17:34:44 <alise> andrewnth: change your nick :|
17:34:52 <AnMaster> alise, it is running in a x86-64 VM though
17:34:52 <alise> AnMaster: emulated on linux/64
17:34:58 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but it's another layer of emulation
17:35:03 -!- andrewnth has changed nick to andynth.
17:35:03 <alise> this VLM is a native emulator for 64-bit linux
17:35:09 <alise> you could just run it in a chroot
17:35:16 <alise> andynth: it's more the starting letters that are bothersome :D
17:35:29 <alise> last-spoke order for nick completion now
17:35:43 <alise> AnMaster: so actually my chain of emulation was wrong, if it's Virtual Lisp Machine (VLM)
17:36:01 <alise> Incidentally, this is the craziest chain of emulation ever: VM running x86 Ubuntu running a Tru64 Unix on Alpha emulator running Genera on a Symbolics Lisp Machine.
17:36:14 <alise> Open Genera doesn't run natively on Tru64 Unix; it emulates a Lisp Machine. VLM, Virtual Lisp Machine.
17:36:19 <alise> "The VLM is a product for DEC Alpha / Tru64 Unix."
17:36:22 <alise> AnMaster: Er, right.
17:36:44 <AnMaster> alise, besides I don't know if the source to snap4 is public
17:36:47 <alise> Incidentally, this is the craziest chain of emulation ever: VM running x86-64 Ubuntu running a Tru64 Unix on Alpha emulator running Genera on a Symbolics Lisp Machine.
17:37:02 <alise> AnMaster: My point is: You're running /three layers of emulation/.
17:37:20 <alise> No, we thought it ran Genera natively on Tru64.
17:37:24 <alise> Not emulating a Lisp Machine.
17:37:38 <AnMaster> what I did think was that we skipped the Tru64 step
17:37:38 <alise> Okay, you're misunderstanding.
17:37:58 <alise> I don't /think/ we do.
17:38:02 <AnMaster> alise, I read open genera docs. It mentions emulation
17:38:09 <alise> ...Anyway, with the x86-64 Linux VLM we could just run it in a chroot.
17:38:13 <alise> For, you know, moar speed.
17:38:22 <AnMaster> alise, but you _don't_ wan't to mess up your system with NFS and NIS
17:38:23 <alise> And better mouse/keyboard stuffs.
17:38:37 <alise> AnMaster: Just serve it on a random port on just 127.0.0.1.
17:38:37 <AnMaster> but sure, skipping that would be nice
17:38:44 <AnMaster> alise, do you have a url though?
17:39:24 <alise> "For example in the snap4 version some arithmetic is broken and GC plus I/O often leads to crashes. Brad has fixed the complex arithmetic, but the error on the Genera side with GC has not been fixed yet." --lispm
17:39:31 <alise> AnMaster: It's commercial software.
17:39:35 <alise> You buy it. From Symbolics.
17:39:39 <alise> An experimental release.
17:39:42 <AnMaster> I know that the arithmetic is broken in part
17:39:50 <alise> They might give it away for a reduced price, of course, since it's an experimental release.
17:40:01 <alise> If you're REALLY smooth with the ladies^W^W^W you might be able to get it free.
17:40:04 <AnMaster> alise, I would like a link to the snap5 then
17:40:16 <alise> AnMaster: Contact D.K.Schmidt.
17:40:19 <alise> You'll probably get a quote.
17:40:36 <alise> sales@symbolics-dks.com
17:40:43 <alise> the contact is D. K. Schmidt
17:40:47 <alise> he handles all communication
17:40:56 <AnMaster> alise, I was pretty sure it was a third party project
17:40:57 <alise> "Send bug reports to Kalman Reti at reti@symbolics-dks.com" -- but it's a known, fixed bug, so.
17:41:04 <alise> AnMaster: It's a Symbolics project.
17:41:15 <AnMaster> alise, they are a god damn shell company!
17:41:27 <alise> AnMaster: Well, they still develop.
17:41:33 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, if you buy it, send me a copy
17:41:42 <alise> Do you have a license?
17:42:06 <alise> No, but you're depriving me. :)
17:42:40 <alise> In which Stanislav uses Open Genera on a real Symbolics Tru64 Alpha machine: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=186.
17:42:46 <AnMaster> alise, I have nowhere to put 2.4 GB
17:43:05 <AnMaster> reverse engineering the whole thing would take less time!
17:43:32 <alise> Error 503 Service Unavailable
17:43:32 <alise> Service Unavailable
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17:43:40 <alise> AnMaster: At least seed the torrent :P
17:43:54 <AnMaster> alise, will take a few minutes
17:44:10 <AnMaster> I guess I could somehow import the file into ktorrent
17:44:15 <alise> Last time I downloaded it it ran at like 1 KiB/s.
17:44:29 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah: download the .torrent file, tell it to download where the file already is.
17:44:33 <alise> ( http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp )
17:44:33 <AnMaster> alise, /msg me the url to the torrent
17:44:44 <alise> Well, I did /msg you; just a lot of other people, too.
17:46:00 <alise> AnMaster: I don't suppose you're the peer I'm downloading from at 600 KiB/s, are you.
17:46:25 <alise> AnMaster: scps what? o_O
17:46:49 <AnMaster> alise, opengenera2.tar.bz2 from laptop to desktop
17:47:03 <AnMaster> since I don't have port forwarding set up on laptop
17:47:35 * AnMaster looks at the kick peer and ban peer options
17:47:41 <AnMaster> alise, I always wondered what those did
17:48:01 <AnMaster> alise, oh I expect you to seed this to a ratio of 2 then
17:48:25 <alise> I'm sure collectively, all the times I start Transmission and then take a second to pause it, it will eventually add up to 2. >_>
17:48:34 <alise> I am the reason democracy doesn't work!
17:48:39 <alise> No, really, I will seed it.
17:48:52 <alise> You are looking at the wrong guy.
17:49:01 <alise> Almost 800 KiB/s download. Pretty nice.
17:49:06 <alise> Oop, went down there.
17:49:08 <AnMaster> alise, some very very fast other peer then
17:49:19 <alise> Yeah; I'm getting 400-600 KiB/s from them.
17:49:31 <alise> Someone else using Transmission. 18.238.1.85.
17:49:48 <AnMaster> could be D, K. Smitch (sp?) himself? ;P
17:50:03 <AnMaster> 85.1.238.18.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer UNCLE-ENZO.MIT.EDU.
17:50:31 <alise> AnMaster: Host Name: UNCLE-ENZO.MIT.EDU
17:50:40 <alise> So it's that legendary university internet.
17:50:47 <alise> I'm seeding to 0 people. Blame them.
17:50:55 <AnMaster> alise, well keep it ready there
17:51:00 <AnMaster> I seeded this when people hadn't got it
17:51:51 <alise> Tell you what, I'll seed aliseOS to you when it's out. :P
17:52:39 <alise> AnMaster: Nobody likes me enough to take my seed.
17:52:46 <AnMaster> alise, I have a better idea, since it will take less time
17:52:47 <alise> Uh... that was an awkward way to say that.
17:53:01 <AnMaster> alise, seed DNF when it is out
17:53:13 <alise> Or Chinese Democracy! Wait... that /did/ come out.
17:53:32 <alise> I mean the album. :P
17:55:05 <alise> Guns N' Roses released Use Your Illusion I & II in 1991, then toured for something like a few billion years, then finally released Chinese Democracy, promised since 1992, at the end of 2008.
17:55:13 <alise> It's more about the ridiculously long wait and anticipation than the music.
17:55:55 <alise> It took longer than DNF took to die; so, yeah.
17:56:01 <alise> Whoa, apparently someone picked up the DNF torch.
17:56:07 <alise> Developer(s) 3D Realms (1997–)
17:56:07 <alise> Unknown external developer (2009–)
17:57:23 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-07-26-bonustholomew.gif
18:04:56 <Gregor> This spam has introduced me to my new favorite word ever:
18:06:08 <alise> Is that a ... lesbian ... man?
18:06:52 <Gregor> But it's my favorite word ever.
18:07:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:07:36 <alise> AnMaster: Why doesn't it work with newer Ubuntus, again?
18:10:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
18:10:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:11:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Weird or AWESOME?
18:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> The Chronojournal has been spammed so much it's not even funny.
18:14:29 <AnMaster> alise, I tried the first 8.x version
18:14:31 <alise> AnMaster: I am an orphan and consequently unable to read )(
18:14:47 <AnMaster> alise, well then what I write here has no use either.
18:14:55 <alise> My computer reads words to me
18:14:55 <AnMaster> since you can't read IRC either
18:15:03 <alise> In other places there is no talking
18:15:07 <alise> All I see are pictures. Sometimes they are nice
18:39:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:40:13 <alise> I wonder how much RAM Open Genera needs.
18:42:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, does anyone else think writing a Lisp OS that can run on modern hardware is a sensible idea?
18:42:37 <alise> You mean apart from me? Or apart from you?
18:42:55 <oerjan> 09:08:11 <alise> 02:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> He would be an ideal candidate for a Halloween costume.
18:42:59 <oerjan> 09:08:15 <alise> I'm afraid he's dead.
18:43:05 <alise> I think it's a good idea -- well, not Lisp, but the same idea as Lisp Machine O-- anyway, yes; the Loper OS guy [warning: controversial half-crank, but clever]; me; ...
18:43:06 <oerjan> that is not _necessary_ a disadvantage.
18:43:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: make sure it can persist lisp objects rather than a silly filesystem!
18:44:12 <alise> now how much ram does open genera need
18:44:50 <alise> I'll give the vm the default
18:44:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: much less
18:44:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 80s hardware
18:45:05 <alise> but it has to run ubuntu, running an Alpha emulator, running a Lisp Machine emulator, running Genera
18:45:07 <alise> so there is overhead
18:45:11 <alise> but 384 should be plenty. absolutely plenty.
18:45:29 <pikhq> alise: That's a lot of layers.
18:45:32 <alise> "You should have a 300 mHz or greater Alpha workstation with at least
18:45:32 <alise> 500 MB RAM, 4 MB cache and 1 GB of available disk space."
18:45:37 <alise> I'll give it 512 MiB.
18:45:50 <alise> This is probably excessive, but dammit, I have over 3 GiB free.
18:46:15 <alise> Failed to create a new virtual machine Open Genera.
18:46:15 <alise> Runtime error: -102 (File not found.).
18:46:37 <alise> Oh, it uninstalled VirtualBox.
18:47:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, if you do make a Lisp OS: You are awesome. If you make a Lisp OS that, instead of a filesystem, automatically persists the Lisp objects in the system with a certain marker on them -- say, with a "persist" flag set -- to disk, and automatically reloads them on bootup (note: this is /easier/ than implementing a filesystem) -- you are quadruply awesome and should breed immediately.
18:48:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's a lovely idea, but I enjoy programming, and as such am a terrible developer.
18:48:48 <alise> Yeah, x86-64 is a drag.
18:49:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The main issue is the Lisp implementation.
18:49:11 <alise> You don't really want to write it in C because then you get all the baggage of, you know, C, which is sort of against the point.
18:49:21 <alise> But writing a JIT compiler in assembly? [suicide.]
18:49:40 <pikhq> JIT... Assembly... (seppuku)
18:49:40 <alise> Or... LowLevelLisp macro DSL in whatever Lisp you are implementing!
18:50:08 <nooga> writing jit compiler in assembly is not so hard
18:50:28 <alise> Yeah, but... not for us high-level guys.
18:50:30 <nooga> esepcially if you're targetting simple processors without MMU and other useless shit
18:50:34 <alise> Whoa, VirtualBox supports EFI.
18:50:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, use an existing CL (or Scheme) compiler and modify it?
18:50:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Those will be heavily existing-OS-oriented.
18:51:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You could base it on Movitz, but nobody likes Movitz.
18:51:54 <nooga> http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/160/c/5/Talk_to_Me_1_by_humon.jpg :D
18:53:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No point to support it for a new OS.
18:53:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 64-bit is very helpful because you can map the entire object space to address space.
18:53:37 <alise> So, say, some large 64-bit pointer will actually be a serialised object on disk, but of course this is transparently handled.
18:53:49 <alise> That way you don't have to actually directly deal with mapping things; it can be transparent, in the paging.
18:54:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, it means that you have more space for type tags.
18:54:34 <alise> So if you identify, say, 10 types in a tag, that's four bits, so you still get 60 bits.
18:54:44 <alise> And today's CPUs don't even /use/ all 60 bits to look up memory.
18:54:57 <alise> Although IIRC there's some restriction on the higher bits; pikhq?
18:55:00 <alise> But you can always use the lower bits.
18:55:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I don't mean just pass that pointer.
18:55:12 <alise> Obviously if it's a pointer, you >> 4.
18:55:23 <alise> So you tag the lower bits.
18:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, an instruction for each memory access seems wasteful.
18:56:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nah, not really.
18:56:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Memory access is very slow compared to CPU anyway.
18:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OTOH there's CCL's strategy, which is to align all objects.
18:56:43 <alise> So the overhead is unnoticeable.
18:56:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That also works, yes, but you probably want more than just integers vs objects.
18:57:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Booleans, characters, symbols... identifying these in the pointer is useful.
18:57:18 <alise> Especially type of number, since that makes polymorphic arithmetic a lot quicker.
18:57:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, so it aligns it even more.
18:57:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's 3 bits, so...
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18:58:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That would work, yes.
18:58:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Probably the best idea.
18:58:23 <nooga> are there some papers about machine lisp?
18:58:43 <nooga> why not implement machine lisp on some spartan core
18:59:16 <alise> machine lisp on lisp machine core.
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19:00:18 <nooga> lisp machine on FPGA
19:00:35 <alise> fpga is slow though :D
19:00:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: do you have project ADHD?
19:01:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: dammit.
19:01:03 <alise> I almost got excited.
19:01:22 <nooga> probably emulating lisp machine on x86 is slow as well
19:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OTOH I've never actually done a project with anyone else's knowledge.
19:02:02 <alise> I guess I can help with everything that isn't actually writing assembly.
19:02:09 <alise> "Organising an object model in memory" is my idea of fun.
19:04:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Of course.
19:04:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Basically, every allocated object gets a unique position in address space. Obviously. The thing is, this does not correlate to physical memory.
19:04:54 <alise> You can get addresses in the very high numbers, theoretically.
19:05:03 <alise> In the Lisp, in the object system underlying everything or whatever we have,
19:05:08 <alise> Every object has a flag -- "persist".
19:05:17 <alise> If it is set, then every N intervals,
19:05:23 <alise> It is saved to disk with its address.
19:05:31 <alise> Whenever an object is used, it is loaded into RAM (or at least, if it can all be).
19:05:44 <alise> Objects that have not been used for a while give way to new objects to be loaded.
19:05:52 <alise> Tada: We remove the filesystem, replace it with orthogonal object persistence, AND
19:05:54 <alise> objects never change addresses
19:06:10 <alise> Also, you can't lose data more than N intervals old if it's set to persist; it will reappear on the next boot.
19:06:17 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:06:28 <alise> So: You never have to touch the disk. All you ever do is set "persistent" and never have to worry.
19:06:35 <alise> Some reinitialisation to do with sockets, yes, but that's easy enough to handle.
19:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if N is high you'd presumably want to be able to force storage.
19:07:38 <alise> N would not be high.
19:07:49 <alise> We'd keep a list of "dirty" (changed) objects, so the writes would never be large.
19:08:01 <alise> So we can do them, say, every .5 seconds.
19:08:09 <alise> It could be configurable from inside, I guess.
19:08:37 <alise> This is called "orthogonal" persistence. It is quite a well-known thing and has had a bit of research done.
19:09:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, I even suspect you could do deduplicative storage and thereby /version every change to a persisted object/. But that's much more theoretical, and harder.
19:09:22 <alise> Fragmentation on disk?
19:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> When an object is GCed, presumably you remove it from the disc?
19:09:59 <alise> It's not a huge problem any more, what with the speed of disks and the rising popularity of SSDs. While this is a toy, of course it will never make a difference; when it becomes practical... well, that'll take so long we'll all be using SSDs anyway.
19:10:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but an object with the persist flag set is never GC'd.
19:10:27 <alise> We don't serialise every old object (you can almost do this automatically, but again that's much more theoretical)
19:10:42 <pikhq> One could presumably design the OS based around having both an SSD and a platter.
19:10:54 <alise> Yeah, but ... I'd just treat disk seeking as instant.
19:11:12 <alise> Remember, /all/ your RAM will be used to store all the objects it can.
19:11:28 <alise> Sure, it won't be totally optimal, but once SSDs become very popular (soon) it'll be just fine.
19:11:34 <alise> In fact, scheduling and the like on SSDs only hurts performance.
19:11:39 <alise> And since this would initially just be a toy, well...
19:12:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But are you going to do your everyday computing on this soon?
19:12:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Aspire to own an SSD, then.
19:12:37 <alise> They'll be affordable in a few years, when this thing might actually be able to edit its own code. :P
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19:13:34 <alise> You /could/ use GRUB... but if we're even not doing C, hell; just write our own.
19:13:38 <alise> We'll have to switch into long mode anyway.
19:13:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, make partitions and the bootloader lisp objects!
19:13:44 <alise> It's not hard to write a bootloader.
19:13:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That makes no sense, good sir.
19:15:28 <alise> What; my processor doesn't do virtualisation.
19:15:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So does banana-flavoured cheese.
19:15:49 <alise> So I can't do 64-bit with VirtualBox. Bet QEMU can do it.
19:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Using VB for writing bootloaders and such doesn't seem like such a good idea.
19:16:44 <alise> VirtualBox you mean?
19:16:47 <alise> Oh, I'm just trying Open Genera.
19:17:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: For actual OS development you usually want Bochs.
19:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course I mean VirtualBox. Writing bootloaders in Visual Basic is so stupid it's almost cool.
19:17:26 <alise> Slow as molasses, but you can do debug output and even some debugging (this is hellish).
19:17:43 <alise> So Bochs when shit is fucked up, QEMU when shit is cool.
19:22:22 <alise> Yeah. Wait ... are we coding /now/?
19:22:32 <alise> Hold up there boy, there's an awful lot of planning and procrastinating to do first! :D
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19:24:07 <alise> Of course to the first question or the second statement?
19:24:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We should probably decide on the actual Lisp. Proper Common Lisp would take 50 years to implement all the subtleties of Roman numeral formatting and LOOP and whatnot, so I'd suggest that that's out. But Scheme is ... not ideal for this, obviously.
19:24:59 <alise> Therefore I propose the obviously superior solution, that of designing our own dialect.
19:25:15 <alise> Worked for the Symbolics guys!
19:25:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT.
19:25:33 <alise> What say you to yasm?
19:25:42 <alise> It's just like nasm, except BSD-licensed. :P
19:26:44 <alise> You're like me when I even had the necessary amount of self-delusion to convince myself to start big projects! And I LIKE that. :P
19:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> So long as I don't have to grapple with AT&T indirection, I'm good.
19:27:48 <alise> So, presumably you know assembly; that's handy, as I ... don't, not more than the absolute basics.
19:33:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh?
19:38:02 <alise> Nothing much; immutable conses, there's always a popular one. :P
19:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Immutable conses seem a bit weird for a low-level system.
19:41:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps, but actually mutating conses basically never comes up in code. Not in well-designed code, anyway.
19:41:44 <alise> And if you're iterating over that cons... /ouch/
19:41:50 <alise> Well, over the list with that cons in it.
19:42:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, true, but functions like nreverse can be useful.
19:42:26 <alise> Reversing a linked list is slow.
19:42:45 <alise> Perhaps you are correct.
19:43:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, that's pretty much what you have to do.
19:43:14 <alise> Consider the structure of the cons cells.
19:43:34 <alise> First you have to iterate through all of them, to find the last element; save the car of the first node, set the car of the first node to the last one.
19:43:42 <alise> You end up copying all the values and changing the cars of all of them.
19:43:51 <alise> This won't be significantly faster than just creating new conses.
19:44:10 <alise> Besides, if we prioritised performance over safety...
19:44:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, like that. That'd be even slower then, I think.
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19:44:55 <alise> Consing is fast, you know. :)
19:45:54 <alise> Maybe you are right.
19:46:12 <alise> But if we are not careful we could end up with "C++ -- the S-Expression edition".
19:46:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Racket does, by default.
19:46:31 <alise> (Previously, PLT "I Can't Believe It's Not R5RS" Scheme.)
19:46:42 <alise> Apparently this broke very few programs in the wild.
19:46:48 <oklopol> umm, alise, reversing a list by reversing the cdr's basically means copying integers around
19:47:02 <alise> Of course, they just had to change it to m(cons|car|cdr|set-car!|set-cdr!).
19:47:12 <alise> oklopol: well, i never said it would be slow
19:47:15 <alise> just slower than the car method
19:47:19 <alise> unless i'm misunderstanding
19:47:24 <oklopol> "<alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, like that. That'd be even slower then, I think."
19:47:34 <alise> than the car method
19:47:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: anyway you can easily have a mutable cons type too
19:48:13 <oklopol> (more local to switch cdr's than car's)
19:48:14 <zzo38> Does yasm support 888ASM style syntax?
19:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I have a vague recollection that that's the defined behaviour...
19:48:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: obviously we should have some CLOS-style object system underpinning everything, if we want every object (well, apart from things like integers) to have a persist flag (and because it's generally useful)
19:48:20 <alise> multi-dispatch, definitely.
19:48:41 <alise> zzo38: probably not; they're not psychic, so they can't instantly know of and implement your new projects.
19:48:45 <alise> unless you've told them?
19:49:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought '(1 2 3) was technically immutable, while (list 1 2 3) is guaranteed mutable.
19:49:12 <zzo38> alise: Of course I know they are not psychic
19:49:34 <zzo38> But I mean, if the way the program works is sufficient to make 888ASM style syntax work
19:49:48 <alise> zzo38: I imagine if you modified the code...
19:49:58 <alise> zzo38: Or: defined a bunch of macros.
19:50:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In Scheme? I don't know.
19:50:31 <alise> Let's not worry about what They do, anyway. :P
19:50:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A major blocker for this project will be the UI... because UIs suck >_>
19:51:36 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do you need a UI?
19:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, well, in a technical sense, yes. It's the "G" that sucks.
19:53:11 <AnMaster> hm, what was the relationship between quines and TCness. I seem to remember there was one.
19:53:12 <zzo38> Are you trying to make a Lisp machine?
19:53:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We need /some/ interface.
19:53:36 <alise> AnMaster: all TC machines with sufficient output capabilities have quines (fixed-point theorem for turing machines)
19:53:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A UI is an interface, not just a graphical one.
19:53:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm sure we can come up with something.
19:53:59 <alise> That's hardly a current problem, anyway.
19:54:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do suggest we use graphical capabilities, even for a linear interface like a command line. Because that lets us do things like images and stuff easily.
19:54:20 <alise> But that's no fun!
19:54:25 <alise> We want little persisted objects on the screen.
19:54:36 <zzo38> I don't know about Lisp machine, but for Forth it is easy to just make it display "ok" and allow any commands to be typed in at the "ok" prompt. For Lisp, I don't know, but I suppose you can do something
19:55:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Everything is a Lisp object, dammit!
19:55:23 <alise> Even C has the screen as a C "object" (pointer).
19:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I thought the screen was done through port I/O.
19:56:08 <alise> It's done via memory (controlled by the video card).
19:56:15 <alise> Okay, you can do fancy stuff by talking to the video card; but pixel blitting is memory.
19:56:44 <alise> Talking to the card?
19:56:50 <alise> Mostly unneeded unless you're doing complicated graphics.
19:56:58 <alise> Well, it's mapped from the card.
19:57:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I was about to say "we don't even have to support USB", but the PS/2 emulation is done by the BIOS and you can't talk to the BIOS in long mode; plus it's so slow why would you want to?.
19:57:53 <alise> And VMs can do PS/2 mice and keyboards to start with :P
20:01:30 <alise> VGA text mode is done with mmapping.
20:01:34 <alise> So is video mode in everything.
20:01:39 <alise> (Simple blitting video mode.)
20:01:49 <alise> Here, delegate the UI work to me, I'll enjoy it :P
20:04:10 <zzo38> Text mode just uses put directly in memory, the ASCII in one byte and the next one is the colors
20:04:25 <zzo38> Usually it is CP437 ASCII
20:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason, finding decent docs for low-level display code is difficult.
20:04:36 <alise> zzo38: You can change the font, though.
20:04:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:04:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's all in OSdev material.
20:05:04 <alise> But really, text mode is not worth bothering with after you get stuff running, apart from debug; actually doing stuff with text mode is a bitch with all the wrapping and scrolling and everything.
20:05:06 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I know how the memory is laid out for text mode and for CGA modes
20:05:15 -!- Vegabondmx has joined.
20:05:18 <alise> Besides, you can do more fun, object-y Lisp UIs with graphical stuff. :P
20:05:29 <alise> Note: I do not like WIMP GUIs.
20:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> This is probably because MediaWiki's search function sucks.
20:05:48 <alise> But an automatically tiling (but mouse controlled layout; like Plan 9's acme, if you've used it) object display?
20:05:53 <zzo38> You can also use the BIOS to write text to the screen
20:06:02 <alise> Object display: Literally, "windows" (frames) are objects with a view.
20:06:12 <alise> You can use an Emacs-style buffer switcher "on steroids", too.
20:06:21 <alise> ...also some floating windows, for displaying some objects.
20:06:33 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:06:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Of course, my UI ideas are not very fleshed out because I'm a hopeless visionary.
20:07:13 <alise> But since this project has ... slightly lower ambitions ... than aliseOS, I should be able to cook up something awesome.
20:07:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's... uh...
20:08:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You know Feather?
20:08:13 <alise> You know the stage where ais523 is with Feather, the bit he can explain?
20:08:17 <alise> Well, I haven't even got there yet.
20:08:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Of.
20:08:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I know vaguely of it, but I don't know where he got stuck.
20:09:15 <zzo38> I also have some ideas and when I get a new computer and write Linux distribution I will write a window manager with my own ideas
20:09:18 <alise> Basically, aliseOS will make you toast, take over the internet so you have some more computing power, make your mind explode every time you use it, and sexually gratify your dog*.
20:09:29 <alise> *Advanced edition only.
20:09:47 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: all TC machines with sufficient output capabilities have quines (fixed-point theorem for turing machines)
20:10:01 <alise> aliseOS is limit of OS as awesome goes to infinity
20:10:46 <zzo38> But I don't have a dog
20:10:57 <alise> zzo38: It will buy you a dog first.
20:11:28 <zzo38> But I don't need a dog
20:11:35 <AnMaster> alise, what about this one: The source code consists of the letter "b" followed by a bf program. The "b" is mandatory. When executed the implementation begins by outputting the letter c as the first char.
20:11:36 <alise> Yes, but the dog will be cuddly, you see.
20:11:48 <alise> AnMaster: again, this does not have the necessary output capabilities
20:11:59 <alise> which have been quantified i think but i don't think we've done more than discuss them
20:12:06 <alise> i'd like to quantify them at some point but haven't yet
20:12:11 <alise> david madore has written about this AnMaster
20:12:12 <AnMaster> alise, can you specify what exactly "sufficient output capabilities" is
20:12:21 <alise> see what i just said.
20:12:27 <zzo38> But I don't want a dog
20:12:32 <zzo38> What I want is the source-codes
20:12:44 <alise> http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html
20:12:51 <alise> AnMaster: this has a detailed explanation of the fixed point theorem
20:12:57 <alise> grep /The fixed-point theorem/
20:13:41 <alise> "Yow! I've just lost the SOURCE CODE for all my QUINE PROGRAMS! What will I DO NOW with just the BINARIES?" -- David Madore
20:13:54 <zzo38> alise: Yes I have seen that quotation
20:14:01 <zzo38> I copied it into FORTUNE file, even
20:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how does one access persistent objects after a reboot?
20:15:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Um. The system automatically restores the state of the previous session.
20:15:08 <alise> Because the objects are persistent.
20:15:16 <zzo38> Maybe you have to store all memory state in hard-drive
20:15:17 <alise> Like, the window manager will have the "open objects" persisted.
20:15:24 <zzo38> And then you can restore exactly the state of before
20:15:25 <alise> It will try to show them on screen, which will cause them to be loaded from disk.
20:15:29 <alise> etc., etc., etc. recursively.
20:15:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so shutting down is the same as hibernating on lesser OSes?
20:15:55 <zzo38> Except that you might have to reinitialize some things of other hardware
20:16:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, except... the RAM is written every .5 seconds while running, not all at once.
20:16:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, this means that if you trip over your power cord, you never miss more than N intervals (e.g. .5 seconds) of work.
20:16:26 <alise> Which is, you know, good.
20:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> We will be bothering with multiple processes, won't we?
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20:19:39 <alise> Well, there are no processes, really, if everything is just living objects.
20:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, but what if you want to interleave two things at once?
20:20:20 <alise> You look at objects on the screen, you modify them, pass them to other objects: where is the process? there are long-running background things, like say in "threads"; there are the object's paintings on the screen, which they are told to do by the UI...
20:20:28 <alise> there are their reactions to the buttons you press.
20:20:46 <alise> but "process" is a vague concept, both for merely object display/mutation /and/ long-running computation: and we have no need of it.
20:21:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so your text editor can fiddle with the WM's internals?
20:21:27 <zzo38> My idea of the BIOS, is, to be compatible with IBM PC BIOS calls, and if there is no boot devices, or you push DELETE key while booting, or you just configured it to do so, or if the operating system attempts to switch to ROM BASIC, then it shall enter interactive Forth mode and display the "ok" on the screen.
20:21:28 <alise> No: this is why we have sandboxing.
20:21:42 <alise> In a way, note that the WM's internals would be /private/ to it; so there is no real worry there; but we can have proper sandboxing too.
20:23:24 <alise> Perhaps not threading as the pthreads and C folk know it; perhaps something more rigorous, without shared state.
20:23:29 <alise> Who knows? It's almost an active research topic.
20:23:32 <alise> I suggest we look at what Oberon does.
20:23:54 <alise> It has a similar objects-not-processes model, and it's well-designed; it will help.
20:24:05 <alise> Which /is/ the language, in a way.
20:24:34 <zzo38> Can you please tell me what is wrong with this program? http://sprunge.us/BgPV http://sprunge.us/UjTE
20:24:48 <alise> zzo38: What error does it result in?
20:25:09 <alise> \parindent=0.1pt? What, why the .1pt?
20:25:30 <alise> I do suggest that you use LaTeX.
20:25:55 <zzo38> Many errors, including "Missing } inserted", also there is a copy of one of the pages near the end of the document copied at the beginning of the printout, and the tables have no lines and won't wrap like HTML tables do.
20:26:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "An efficient multitasking model is supported in a single-process by using short-running commands and cooperative background task handlers."
20:26:15 <zzo38> How do I make it wrap and stuff like HTML tables do?
20:26:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: This would need to be adjusted for SMP.
20:26:33 <alise> zzo38: missing } inserted -- you have a } missing somewhere
20:26:44 <alise> zzo38: and if you use LaTeX, it includes a table environment that does everything
20:26:50 <alise> writing it yourself will be hard
20:27:23 <Quadrescence> Output written on srcprint.pdf (1449 pages, 20374279 bytes). http://i.imgur.com/2eX2x.jpg
20:27:25 <zzo38> Does LaTeX do like HTML tables that can be wrapped?
20:27:53 <alise> What filesystem do floppies use again? Fat-12?
20:28:10 <alise> <Quadrescence> Output written on srcprint.pdf (1449 pages, 20374279 bytes). http://i.imgur.com/2eX2x.jpg
20:28:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, true.
20:28:39 <Quadrescence> haha I AM PRINTING 1449 PAGES OF SOURCE CODE ON LEGAL-SIZED PAPER DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT ALISE
20:28:47 <alise> Seems Oberon is not in any existing filesystem.
20:28:51 <alise> Quadrescence: Can you... afford that?
20:29:12 <alise> But the waste of paper.
20:29:28 <alise> 1449 pages is rather a lot for a pointless print-out.
20:29:41 <alise> no, just asking whether you really don't have anything better to do with it :p
20:30:12 <alise> the code looks far too small on that paper.
20:30:41 <Quadrescence> but I don't want to print Output written on srcprint.pdf (3628 pages, 32294410 bytes).
20:30:42 <zzo38> Also the page numbers in the table of contents are wrong, and there is a copy of page 28 before the first page of the table of contents, although Yap says it is page 26
20:31:01 <zzo38> The page it is a copy of is labeled 26 in the table of contents, though
20:31:49 <zzo38> No I passed it through Plain TeX once
20:32:01 <zzo38> Why do I need any twice passes?
20:32:22 <zzo38> I put everything in a macro and make it call the macro multiple times
20:32:30 <zzo38> So that is like multiple passes, a bit?
20:32:45 <Quadrescence> In latex usually you pass it through a few times to resolve references and counts and stuff
20:33:54 <zzo38> Like, see the http://sprunge.us/BgPV the part \def\PrintDocument that is the macro I am making it multiple times to resolve references and counts and stuff.
20:34:57 <zzo38> Also can you tell me if you found a mistake in the other file http://sprunge.us/UjTE
20:36:12 <zzo38> See if you can find the part I missed??
20:40:15 <zzo38> See the file http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi is the printout, you can see what is wrong with page-numbers and you can see some of the text is off of the page, and the other problems
20:41:58 <zzo38> Can you please tell me how to correct these problems?
20:44:29 <alise> zzo38: Why is it in landscape?
20:44:34 <alise> Why are the margins awful? Aieee, please use LaTeX.
20:44:46 <zzo38> It isn't in landscape?
20:45:23 <zzo38> Maybe your computer converted it to landscape because there is text off of the page
20:45:32 <zzo38> And how do I use LaTeX?
20:45:41 <alise> zzo38: Pretty easily.
20:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> This seems similar to what alise had in mind, to a degree.
20:45:51 <alise> You can get rid of almost all your definitions; LaTeX includes those features.
20:45:55 <zzo38> The table of contents is correct except for the page numbers, as you should be able to see.
20:46:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: TUNES is the One True Idealist OS; 1995 to present, not a single bit of development.
20:46:07 <alise> It's as old as I am.
20:46:16 <alise> The founder, Fare, is a fan of Lisp machines.
20:46:25 <zzo38> Where is the document for how to use those features in LaTeX?
20:46:32 <alise> Quadrescence: Not even that. Well, in a few weeks, I suppose.
20:46:45 <alise> zzo38: You could read the LaTeX manual; that probably comes with your distribution; or you could use a tutorial, like Wikibooks'.
20:46:54 <alise> zzo38: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX
20:47:02 <alise> You could just start at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Document_Structure.
20:47:58 <zzo38> OK I can see the Wikibooks file now
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20:49:36 <zzo38> I still want to learn how LaTeX works though, so that I can know how to write those kind of macros
20:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, this is going to be very different to a conventional OS, isn't it?
20:50:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Extraordinarily.
20:50:47 <alise> No concept of binaries, filesystems, conventional UIs... other languages...
20:50:59 <alise> Unix-style OS design is extraordinarily boring, of course.
20:51:00 <zzo38> So, the things like "\subsection*" can be used to implement the "==Pragma TeX OmitFromContents" that I have?
20:51:13 <alise> zzo38: They're basically very complicated macros. Well, not that complicated.
20:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I still don't understand how we do two things at once.
20:53:13 <zzo38> Icosahedral RPG is not like a scientific article/report, though.
20:53:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complicatedly.
20:53:42 <alise> zzo38: That is alright.
20:53:49 <alise> zzo38: the article or book class will suit your needs. Maybe memoir.
20:53:59 <zzo38> And what if I want to omit the \author part?
20:54:00 <alise> Memoir is like all the classes in one.
20:54:23 <zzo38> Probably book class should I use?
20:54:44 <alise> I've never used the book class. I'd use either article or memoir.
20:54:47 <zzo38> It is supposed to be like a book, that you can print out and bind it as a book and published
20:54:54 <alise> memoir is a very good class for books.
20:55:08 <zzo38> Except it says \chapter is only for books and reports
20:55:08 <alise> You can use the same commands as article class.
20:55:17 <alise> \chapter works fine in memoir.
20:55:29 <zzo38> OK. The description on Wikibooks does not mention it.
20:55:50 <zzo38> Is the memoir class good for publishing a book?
20:55:59 <alise> zzo38: http://www.tex.ac.uk/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/memoir/memman.pdf Very comprehensive documentation of memoir.
20:56:08 <alise> It does book typography and the like by default.
20:56:20 <alise> You can ignore most of the typographical, formatting stuff in the memoir manual; it's very excessive.
21:00:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complicatedly!
21:02:07 <zzo38> Are commands such as \def and \newcount and so on still usable in LaTeX?
21:03:37 <zzo38> The Icosahedral RPG rules is meant to be printed in black&white, except for the cover art which can be colored.
21:04:11 <alise> zzo38: Yes, though for commands you should use \defcommand.
21:04:52 <alise> http://www.emerson.emory.edu/services/latex/latex_19.html
21:05:22 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:06:30 <zzo38> Does LaTeX still use Plain TeX or is stuff defined in plain.tex unavailable?
21:06:47 -!- relet has joined.
21:06:56 <alise> It doesn't use Plain TeX, but it has analogues for all the commands.
21:07:05 <alise> I guess Plain TeX /might/ work with LaTeX.
21:07:17 -!- tombom has joined.
21:09:31 <zzo38> I want to use Plain TeX for some things, because there are some things in LaTeX which I don't like
21:16:38 <zzo38> Also there is the problem of still not automatically wrapping text in columns
21:16:59 <zzo38> It doesn't do that with the icoruma.tex macros that I have, either, it also has the same problem
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21:18:02 <zzo38> How can you do it like HTML where it will automatically determine the proper widths for wrapping the text in the tables?
21:20:53 <alise> zzo38: latex can do columns
21:20:56 <alise> twocolumn environment or something
21:20:59 <alise> or was it multicol
21:21:04 <alise> it does do that with the tables
21:22:32 <AnMaster> why did I just think "D&D - flatland edition"
21:22:51 <AnMaster> that would be some interesting dice though
21:23:14 <AnMaster> zzo38, do you know what flatland refers to?
21:24:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, so this would be D&D for a 2D world, with some 2D replacement for dices
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21:31:25 <zzo38> I can see however, that LaTeX does have a lot of stuff useful for Icoruma, such as \begin{enumerate} for <+> and \begin{itemize} for <->
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21:33:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how would you toss one, you wouldn't have gravity?
21:33:25 <AnMaster> well, if you did, then people would have to climb over each other
21:34:11 <zzo38> Also the \footnote command works differently?
21:34:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you seem to forget the 2D nature of this
21:34:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't you only have one, the one you are in?
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21:40:35 <alise> zzo38: \footnote{text}
21:40:42 <alise> or \footnotemark[number]
21:40:45 <alise> then \footnotetext[num]{...}
21:41:28 <Warrigal> Our world seems pretty easy to two-dimensionalise. Just squeeze it between two plates that are really close together.
21:44:24 <zzo38> alise: The LaTeX \footnote{text} works fine for Icoruma, but it is different than Plain TeX?
21:44:36 <zzo38> And what is the command to activate LaTeX?
21:44:46 <alise> With LaTeX, run the "latex" binary instead of "tex".
21:45:36 <zzo38> When entering "latex" it says it is pdfTeX
21:46:03 <zzo38> But what if I want DVI?
21:46:50 <alise> pdfTeX outputs dvi too by default
21:46:55 <alise> only if you enter pdflatex will it output pdf
21:47:05 <alise> pdfTeX has non-PDF features too like typography and stuff that LaTeX utilises
21:47:52 <zzo38> O, that is why it is pdfTeX
21:52:39 <alise> Since you are doing a book, I suggest using document class memoir.
21:52:56 <alise> You can also use 10, 11 or 12pt text size (and it will scale the rest accordingly) with \documentclass[NNpt]{memoir}
21:52:57 * Sgeo wonders what alise's opinion of things like Wt and Blitzen is
21:53:18 <alise> Sgeo: wt is strange. i don't like it much -- link to blitzen?
21:53:38 <Sgeo> http://blitzen.sourceforge.net/new/index.php
21:53:46 <Sgeo> Something similar, except for C/GObject
21:54:29 <Sgeo> No, but I plan to become decent quickly
21:54:38 <Sgeo> I'm planning on making a UI toolkit
21:56:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, the OS! Which is now my favourite someone-else's-project.
21:56:06 <alise> Also problem, SEP both ways.
21:56:31 <alise> Make sure you manage my crazy ideas which I am likely to suggest >_>
21:56:39 <alise> Hey that's my job :D
21:56:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sgeo invented PSOX
21:57:07 <alise> he's insane in the "Oh, jesus." way :|
21:58:36 <Sgeo> I meant, I'm making a GUI toolkit
21:59:26 <Sgeo> You're saying e still has time to save emself?
21:59:57 <alise> Flonk: Hypergeometric spatial disk organisation for deduplicative Lisp morphism storage theory.
22:01:23 <Sgeo> So, need layout control, widgets (there will be 2), and events (clicking)
22:01:27 <alise> See, he /is/ sufficiently crazy.
22:01:28 <Sgeo> Anything else?
22:01:34 <alise> Sgeo: Why are you doing that?
22:01:46 <Sgeo> alise, to make writing a HUD for Active Worlds sane
22:01:52 <Flonk> the only word in this sentence I really understood was 'for'
22:01:57 <alise> How do you plan to handle updating the UI without user interaction?
22:02:32 <Sgeo> clicking is a user interaction, right? But it needs to be updated separately from that, so
22:03:07 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover: I've never done anything with it
22:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, what alise is talking about is abstracting away the disk completely.
22:03:38 <alise> no, i was talking about babble
22:03:43 <alise> only half of those words were meaningful
22:08:23 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, what do you think of the ideas so far presented?
22:08:24 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: hence my comment saying that they're partly mocking it, i'd kick them in the least... not working with the standard ( which it does regularly) they all roll on their backs and wave their paws in the air and point out that i have
22:12:40 <alise> Quadrescence: interestingly nobody ever prescribes the things i say to age until they know what my age is.
22:12:47 <oklopol> "<AnMaster> well, if you did, then people would have to climb over each other" <<< or you could have a few layers
22:12:48 <alise> everyone else in here has known for years; get over it
22:13:22 <alise> hmm, late 2008 i think.
22:13:49 <oklopol> alise isn't exactly all that young anymore
22:17:17 <oklopol> maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane
22:18:14 <oklopol> Quadrescence: ben. of doubt or something
22:18:55 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover: why do you ask everyone it they know Lisp? :D
22:19:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Because we need someone sane to vet our Lisp OS ideas.
22:20:08 <Sgeo> I .. read a bit about Scheme some time ago
22:20:14 <Sgeo> Does that count for anything?
22:20:36 <Flonk> well all I know is (f o o), so i guess I'm useless there
22:20:42 <ais523> I know bits of several different incompatible bits of lisp
22:20:46 <ais523> *incompatible dialects
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22:21:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: allegedly
22:21:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ais523 teaches Java [or teacher assistant?]
22:21:25 <oklopol> Quadrescence: to me it looks like it could've been a bad attempt at jokingness, in case there's something insane about checking if you're sane (although this is probably something you are not that interested in discussing)
22:21:59 <Darkfull> Help http://www.4security.com.br/2010/07/26/artigo-apache-com-mysql-e-monitoramento-com-bijk-no-debian-lenny/
22:22:45 <Sgeo> Anyone feel like opening elinks or similar?
22:23:27 -!- Darkfull has left (?).
22:23:39 <oklopol> "<Quadrescence> alise: stupidity is confused with nativity" <<< i'm not sure i get this, can you elaborate
22:24:55 <oklopol> hey Darkfull brought us a link
22:34:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I still think we should cannibalise an existing CL implementation, BTW.
22:37:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no
22:37:36 <alise> one, CL lacks a lot of things we'd like, like low-level hardware access;
22:37:49 <alise> two, CL implementations will be VERY tied to existing OSes and very hard to make work for our purposes -- trust me there --
22:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so we write all of the frills that Lisp needs from scratch?
22:39:41 <alise> Sure. We're writing all the frills an OS needs from scratch
22:39:49 <alise> Besides, C would interfere with stuff, with memory and the like.
22:43:06 <zzo38> Unfortunately 888ASM is x86 only, with limited support for 32-bit and no support for floating point. But other than that I like the syntax best and it supports macros and things like that, too.
22:43:11 <alise> We'll probably need to write the JIT compiler in assembly, for speed and managing hardware, but we can code the frills in Lisp itself.
22:43:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, these things really blur the OS-language distinction.
22:44:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Or we can just build it up with macros and the like.
22:44:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Memory access would need to be included at a low level, wouldn't it?
22:44:55 <zzo38> alise: Is it x86 assembly? Is it protected mode? Now if you do it to other computer you need C instead of assembly, a bit
22:45:08 <alise> for the address space
22:45:40 <zzo38> O, so it won't work if you don't have a 64-bit computer
22:45:41 <Flonk> good night people.
22:45:51 -!- Flonk has left (?).
22:46:13 <alise> zzo38: You could use QEMU.
22:46:16 <alise> It can emulate 64-bit.
22:46:26 <alise> But yeah, the 64-bit address space is important for our plans.
22:46:30 <zzo38> I have Bochs, I think it can emulate a 64-bit computer as well??
22:46:40 <alise> Bochs is slower though.
22:46:41 <zzo38> But that is OK, you can make it 64-bit program only, if you want to
22:46:45 <alise> You'd get much less than 2 GiB of space in total on your computer.
22:47:14 -!- Flonk has joined.
22:48:37 <Flonk> :D no its just that my clock tells the wrong time
22:53:04 <Flonk> so you guys know everything, right? :D
22:53:37 <Flonk> I'm just looking at lambda calculus (and havent come very far yet).
22:54:09 <Flonk> would (λx.xx)2 be 2+2, or 2*2, or something else?
22:54:31 <alise> lambda calculus doesn't have integers by default, so do you mean the church numeral?
22:54:58 <alise> then yes, it's 2 squared
22:55:04 <alise> You can verify this yourself
22:55:28 <Flonk> alright, thanks :)
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22:56:53 <alise> what don't you get about \b e. e b?
22:57:37 <zzo38> How to I configure my Wikibooks account to display the newest draft by default instead of the checked versions?
22:59:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: try and expand it manually
22:59:41 <alise> (\f x. f (f x)) (\f x. f (f x))
22:59:44 <zzo38> Actually I didn't find it
22:59:49 <alise> (\x. (\f x. f (f x)) ((\f x. f (f x)) x))
23:00:37 <alise> alpha renaming, you mean?
23:01:56 <alise> "A new way of analyzing grids of numbers known as matrices" --physorg.com
23:02:54 <oklopol> "in our new formalism matrices are written upside down, which makes some equations look much more natural"
23:04:02 <oklopol> mine was, that's how professional what alise said sounded to me
23:04:24 <alise> i just thought it was hilarious that a physics news website, supposedly
23:04:27 <alise> had to explain what a matrix was
23:06:09 <alise> http://www.physorg.com/news199631037.html
23:08:11 <alise> "Yehuda Eliezar" -- someone trying to say Eliezer Yudkowsky
23:08:17 <Sgeo> I'm uninstalling VS2010
23:10:09 <Sgeo> Actually, I'm not
23:10:37 <oklopol> so it answers the long asked question of when does a banded matrix have a banded inverse
23:11:03 <oklopol> i wrote the end of the sentence first so now it's all wrong and blah
23:11:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: YES CARRIER).
23:14:01 <oklopol> a b f x = (b ... (b f)) x, b occurs a times, now the outermost b will apply (b ... (b f)) to x b times, where the depth of (b ... (b f)) is now a-1, by induction each of these applies f to its argument b^(a-1) times, so all in all f gets applied b^a times to x
23:15:04 <oklopol> maybe that makes some sense, i've always just sort of trusted my feeling that composition looks exponentiationy.
23:16:17 <oklopol> note that (b f) applies f to its argument b times, so the induction base works
23:16:30 <oklopol> one b so f applied b^1 times
23:17:14 <ais523> composition's more like multiplication
23:17:18 <ais523> it's application that's exopnential-like
23:18:11 <oklopol> i meant application as you can probably see
23:20:49 -!- calamari has joined.
23:21:12 <Gregor> SQUIDS ARE ATTACKING, PLEASE MAN YOUR BATTLE STATIONS.
23:21:36 <Gregor> calamari: Yup. It has a Debian chroot too 8-D
23:21:46 <Gregor> I got frustrated looking for a half-decent WM for the screen size though.
23:22:08 <calamari> just ported dpkg to android/bionic
23:22:26 <Gregor> Get aptitude next plzkthx?
23:22:27 <calamari> haven't actually tested it yet lol
23:22:34 <Gregor> Testing is for the weak!
23:22:58 <calamari> but I was thinking the first package should definitely be egobf
23:23:02 <oklopol> so okay what does a . b do... (a . b) f = a (b f), so * x = (bf ... (bf x) nested a times, car-bf applies f to the cdr b times, and it follows by induction that f gets applied exactly b*a times
23:23:31 <oklopol> because application wasn't exponentiation but exponentiation-like
23:23:57 <oklopol> so addition, that was more work or?
23:24:41 <Gregor> cal153: Why is your name the first tab completion for "cal<tab>"
23:24:52 <Gregor> calamari: EgoBF is of vital importance. As is cplof.
23:26:34 <ais523> I'll update it if I ever go back to WIkipedia
23:26:48 <Gregor> What is a "metapedian"?
23:27:01 <ais523> oklopol: well, I haven't gone back there ever
23:27:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's not what the word normally means
23:27:11 <ais523> at least within Wikipedia
23:27:37 <Gregor> This site makes my nose hurt.
23:27:45 <ais523> and I have no reason to believe everyone who redefines random words on the Internet
23:27:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yesh :P
23:28:19 <calamari> does dpkg absolutely require perl?
23:29:45 <calamari> bash: /data/local/bin/dpkg: No such file or directory
23:29:52 <calamari> yeah my son pushed enter for me lol
23:29:53 <oklopol> can you somehow browse the content of metapedia
23:30:15 <calamari> so I'm assuming dpkg is looking for something but not telling
23:30:27 <Flonk> well, good night again :D
23:30:29 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
23:31:09 <oklopol> oh main_page, no link from metapedia.org except the one in latest news
23:31:21 <calamari> hmm I guess it doesn't think it's executable
23:31:38 <Gregor> calamari: That's probably the dynamic loader.
23:32:04 <Gregor> objdump it to see what dynamic loader it wants, then objdump another binary to see what dynamic loader it wants.
23:34:31 <calamari> file format elf32-littlearm for both...
23:35:08 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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23:36:09 <Gregor> calamari: Hrm, objdump isn't telling me what I thought objdump would tell me :P
23:36:22 <calamari> the start address is different
23:36:47 <Gregor> readelf -l /bin/bash | grep interpreter
23:36:53 <Gregor> That's what you actually want
23:38:03 <Gregor> Uhhh, are they different then? :P
23:38:12 <Gregor> Yup, I've seen that problem a lot.
23:38:20 <Gregor> -dynamic-linker flag to ld
23:38:48 <Gregor> Ideally that shouldn't be necessary, if it is that suggests your GCC configuration is wrong ...
23:38:56 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... huh?
23:39:38 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I just poked around 'til I found the command that gave me what I wanted :P
23:39:58 <calamari> Gregor: android ndk doesn't really want you to create native binaries.. maybe that's why?
23:40:13 <Gregor> calamari: Ahhhh, that'd do it, yeah.
23:40:37 <Gregor> calamari: So just provide the requisite -dynamic-linker flag manually through GCC like so: -Wl,-dynamic-linker,/whatever/foo.so
23:40:51 <Gregor> Why have I munged with ELFs so much >_<
23:41:10 <Gregor> No, although that'd work too.
23:41:32 <Gregor> And since that is how it's documented, probably wise to use it that way X-D
23:50:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Not since I watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8
23:54:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:54:59 <calamari> well it ran it but gave me segfaults.. trying my build on a hello world
23:56:02 <calamari> oh sorry, that came across wrong
23:56:14 <calamari> I am trying to compile a hello world to see if it segfaults too
23:56:38 <calamari> I have one built with the gloogle tools but it isn't so good for configure scripts