←2010-07 2010-08 2010-09→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:03 <Gregor> calamari: Uhhh, that's exactly what I thought you meant :P
00:01:00 <calamari> ok
00:01:10 <calamari> well thanks for getting me past that first hurdle
00:01:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
00:01:27 <alise> Gregor: Cyriak <3
00:04:38 <alise> Gregor: link me to that teddynom thing
00:07:14 <oerjan> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif
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00:07:37 <alise> oerjan has it bookmarked
00:08:17 <oerjan> actually i just typed codu and selected from the suggestions menu :D
00:11:12 <GreaseMonkey> wrt hackiki: i think it should be as a wiki on the side
00:11:18 <alise> I've been stepping through the Ubuntu install then forgetting about it for like hours now.
00:11:24 <alise> (Expert install)
00:11:27 <GreaseMonkey> if it's a bit too dangerous, we could consider using jsmips
00:11:35 <alise> It's not dangerous.
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00:11:46 <GreaseMonkey> if the server runs freebsd then you can jail it
00:12:52 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Is there no-one sane in this channel?
00:12:59 <oerjan> we have slight doubts about AnMaster
00:13:17 <oerjan> otherwise, no.
00:13:34 <alise> AnMaster is just "not sane" not "insane"
00:13:43 <ais523> I thought AnMaster was excessively sane
00:13:47 <ais523> as its own form of insanityt
00:13:49 <ais523> *insanity
00:14:09 <oerjan> well there _could_ be someone sane among the people who never speak, i guess
00:15:51 <alise> ais523: have you seen AnMaster's optimisation options?
00:16:01 <alise> he's so sane crossed into the region of unsane
00:16:04 <alise> which is like insane but boring!
00:16:49 <oerjan> ...why did i not see Phantom_Hoover left just before i quoted him
00:16:59 <oerjan> THAT'S IMPOLITE, YOU RASCAL
00:17:31 <oerjan> especially since i'm pretty sure he doesn't read the logs. unless my previous hints have gotten through to him.
00:20:13 <oerjan> <oklopol> maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane <-- clearly anyone who checks stuff in the DSM has OCD at least
00:21:11 <oerjan> or hypochondria
00:21:55 <oerjan> although, do hypochondriacs usually go for _mental_ diseases?
00:22:00 <alise> no
00:22:21 <oerjan> (well, frequently. obviously not usually.)
00:23:48 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Because we need someone sane to vet our Lisp OS ideas.
00:24:06 <oerjan> lisp is just an easy isomorphism to combinatory logic with mutation, anyhow.
00:24:50 <alise> We so totally don't, anyway.
00:24:53 <alise> Insanity sucks.
00:25:12 <oerjan> oh wait, you said _sane_. never mind.
00:26:10 <GreaseMonkey> sanity is kinda good
00:26:20 <GreaseMonkey> technically you need to stick within reasonable limits
00:26:25 <GreaseMonkey> and then you can go loose
00:26:36 <GreaseMonkey> so it's kinda like sanely insane
00:27:09 <GreaseMonkey> it's sane enough to reach levels of insanity which top pure insanity
00:27:20 <GreaseMonkey> this DOES kinda make sense if you think about it
00:27:28 <alise> erm
00:27:29 <alise> Sanity sucks.
00:27:35 <GreaseMonkey> compare:
00:27:53 <GreaseMonkey> "those guys run so fast and coordinated tied together, it's insane"
00:27:55 <GreaseMonkey> versus
00:28:10 <GreaseMonkey> "those guys keep getting tangled up and jerking each other around with the rope, it's insane"
00:28:25 <GreaseMonkey> i personally believe the former to be better
00:28:41 <GreaseMonkey> also consider nukes
00:28:48 * oerjan knew he should have listened to the voices telling him to drop the subject
00:29:12 <GreaseMonkey> if there was no sanity in building the nukes, there would be no working nukes
00:29:29 <alise> And ... that's a bad thing?
00:30:00 <GreaseMonkey> well, the "firepower" is a higher level of insane than if you were to just let people be loose and uncoordinated
00:30:10 <GreaseMonkey> i quite like organised sanity
00:30:13 <GreaseMonkey> erm
00:30:17 <GreaseMonkey> organised insanity
00:30:33 <GreaseMonkey> another example: forming a huge huge mob
00:30:43 <GreaseMonkey> and just swarming everywhere
00:31:29 <alise> i can't tell why you'd use nukes as an example.
00:31:52 <alise> mobs suck too
00:32:25 <GreaseMonkey> i think a nuke demonstrates the point of "organised insanity" in that the power of a nuke is INSANE
00:32:42 <GreaseMonkey> and by "mob" i mean a group of people gathered together
00:33:47 <alise> the people who thought up how to make nukes were mostly loner insane geniuses, I'd say.
00:33:50 <alise> the actual building, maybe not
00:35:08 <GreaseMonkey> and if the only people who had anything to do with the nukes were insane then they would not have been made
00:35:20 <GreaseMonkey> well, too insane
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00:39:02 <alise> GreaseMonkey: you're denouncing insanity in #esoteric
00:39:04 <alise> sheesh man.
00:39:29 <GreaseMonkey> no i'm not, i'm promoting "organised insanity"
00:39:33 <calamari> ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000082bc
00:39:40 <calamari> that's gotta be what is causing my segfaults
00:40:26 <GreaseMonkey> oops
00:40:29 <GreaseMonkey> 4 A person who was involved in a car accident was mistakenly pronounced dead at the scene by an ambulance officer. However, during the removal of the body, the victim was found to be still alive. Rushed to hospital, they died there later.
00:40:51 <GreaseMonkey> *the* victim was found... *they* died there later
00:41:43 <calamari> *the* reader was anal... *they* were used to programming in esoteric languages
00:41:53 <calamari> :)
00:43:30 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
00:44:10 <alise> where's phantom_hoover got to...
00:45:03 <oerjan> conspiring with his phantom friends
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00:50:38 <zzo38> Now I got a "! Misplaced \omit" error.
00:51:00 <zzo38> It says "\multispan ->\omit" "\hline\end{tabulary}"
00:52:39 <zzo38> I also got undefined control sequence \TY@F4
00:52:50 <zzo38> I don't have any such control sequence in my document, I don't have \omit either
00:53:21 <alise> You're using some LaTeX command wrong, I guess; by causing it to do that.
00:53:43 <zzo38> Is "\hline\end{tabulary}" wrong?
00:53:51 <zzo38> Or am I using "\multispan" wrong?
00:54:20 <zzo38> I don't even have "\multispan" or "\omit" on this document!
00:55:03 <alise> If the hline thing is in your document, that must be wrong.
00:55:11 <alise> Put your document on sprunge and I'll have a look.
00:55:45 <zzo38> You can access it at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.tex
00:56:35 <oerjan> grmbl grmbl files that won't display in the browser
00:57:57 <zzo38> oerjan: I know in the browser I use I can push "t" to force display as text. But you can also use curl or wget to get the files, or use the view-source: function in the browser
00:58:07 <alise> zzo38: Strange: I cannot see an error in your code. Does it give a hint as to what line?
00:58:26 <zzo38> Line 49
00:59:14 <zzo38> Also, there is a lot of other problems too, table headings are formatting incorrectly, it also badly formats tables that take up multiple pages
00:59:18 <oerjan> zzo38: yeah yeah i know it's useless to complain you all just say "install linux and firefox"
01:00:17 <zzo38> It also prints "_LOOKUP _OF_SKILLS" at the top of the table of contents, for some reason that I don't know.
01:00:19 <oerjan> (i can easily save it and open in vim, it's just one click too much to bother.)
01:01:44 <zzo38> Also, it *still* says the Introduction is on page 3 even after I converted it to LaTeX, even though the Introduction is actually on page 7, just like before.
01:02:59 <zzo38> Also the contents entries for the different spells levels are not lined up properly
01:04:18 <oerjan> the problem with view-source in IE is that it doesn't become available before the browser actually displays the document _somehow_. i cannot get past the save/choose program dialog box. oh well.
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01:05:07 <zzo38> Tables are still badly formatted, worse than before, even.
01:05:36 <zzo38> There are also two blank pages before chapter 5 and chapter 6
01:05:53 <GreaseMonkey> ooh, bet you can't guess what THIS does: http://www.ioccc.org/1994/tvr.c </sarcasm>
01:06:02 <zzo38> See main.dvi
01:06:11 <alise> What table command are you using?
01:06:26 <GreaseMonkey> oh yay TeX... amirite?
01:06:29 <alise> zzo38: Do not use multicolumn for tables!
01:06:42 <alise> zzo38: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Tables
01:06:48 <alise> use the tabular environment
01:06:59 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Something with X, I suppose?
01:07:15 <GreaseMonkey> zzo38: yes, but look at what it spells out
01:07:30 <GreaseMonkey> Z <- Z^2 + C = ?
01:07:45 <alise> mandelbrot.
01:08:08 <GreaseMonkey> correct!
01:08:16 <GreaseMonkey> actually it spells Z -> Z^2 + C ?
01:08:42 <zzo38> alise: I did look at that tables
01:09:07 <zzo38> But {tabulary} is needed to make it automatically wrap text in columns
01:09:10 <alise> You're using multicolumn, though, which does not do the proper formatting for tables.
01:09:11 <zzo38> But it still does it badly
01:09:18 <alise> Howso?
01:09:28 <alise> By default, if the text in a column is too wide for the page, LaTeX won’t automatically wrap it. Using p{width} you can define a special type of column which will wrap-around the text as in a normal paragraph. You can pass the width using any unit supported by LaTeX, such as pt and cm, or command lengths, such as \textwidth.You can find a complete list in appendix Useful Measurement Macros.
01:10:01 <zzo38> I can't use that because it has to be generated automatically from the .irm files
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01:10:51 <alise> zzo38: tabularx
01:10:58 <alise> \begin{tabularx}{\linewidth}{...tablespec...}
01:11:54 <zzo38> It also says I need "supertab" for multiple pages
01:12:09 <zzo38> Or "xtabular"
01:12:28 <zzo38> I don't know which ones I need or how they should be used
01:12:48 <zzo38> And the examples on Wikibooks do use \multicolumn
01:13:02 <zzo38> Which I try to use for the table headings
01:13:07 <alise> I think tabularx will work, no?
01:13:50 <zzo38> Does tabularx do all of these things?
01:14:13 <zzo38> Look at the main.dvi file (in the same directory as main.tex) to see what is going wrong!!
01:15:21 <zzo38> See that the "Character-Start Feats" table is partly off the page (on page 30)
01:15:42 <alise> I wish this was a pdf, so I could search it...
01:16:03 <alise> zzo38: you have two tables without a paragraph between them!
01:16:12 <alise> you need to use \par -- or, in stuff you write yourself, two newlines
01:16:56 <zzo38> See on page 49 it is cut off
01:17:57 <zzo38> OK, now it is a PDF.
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01:18:44 <alise> What is wrong on 49?
01:19:35 <zzo38> The text is cut off (it should say "Duration" there), also there should be a line break before "Target"
01:19:56 <zzo38> Look also the list on page 48 is cut off
01:20:15 <zzo38> On page 47 there is too large space between section names
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01:21:09 <zzo38> And why is page numbers in table of contents is wrong?
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01:22:22 <zzo38> I think the formatting worked much better when it was Plain TeX, but that one had problems as well
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01:24:20 <zzo38> (I still have the files for printing it with Plain TeX, they are different files than the LaTeX files)
01:24:53 <zzo38> (The Plain TeX one is called "icoruma_tex.php" and "icoruma.tex" while the LaTeX one uses "icoruma_latex.php" only)
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01:25:55 <zzo38> At least I know how icoruma.tex works!
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01:26:53 <zzo38> Whether I use Plain TeX (and icoruma.tex) or if I use LaTeX, it is still wrong!
01:28:56 <alise> Did tabularx not work?
01:29:23 <zzo38> alise: It has the same problem and everything is still broken.
01:29:28 <zzo38> It isn't only the tables that are broken.
01:29:34 <alise> What else is broken?
01:29:59 <zzo38> A lot of things are cut off, spacing is all wrong, page numbers are still wrong.....
01:30:22 <zzo38> The formatting is worse than the macro packages I wrote myself.
01:30:39 <alise> You have probably used the wrong code.
01:30:48 <alise> Since your document still probably has non-LaTeXy things in there
01:30:59 <alise> What is cut off?
01:31:06 <alise> What is wrong with the page numbers?
01:31:40 <zzo38> A lot of things are cut off, some of the tables are, also the list of spells and the spell descriptions are both cut off
01:31:52 <zzo38> The page numbers in the table of contents are not the actual page numbers for those sections
01:31:59 <zzo38> They are four less than the actual page numbers
01:34:47 <zzo38> LaTeX just seems much more complicated than Plain TeX, I am going back to using my own
01:37:07 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why VS2010 is working when the installer says it failed to install
01:37:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: Microsoft software is all like that.....
01:54:44 <alise> ta
01:58:27 <zzo38> Maybe Later I will work on this printout of the rules for Icosahedral RPG.
01:58:34 <zzo38> But now I will do other things
01:59:56 <alise> Biiiiiiiiiig Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
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02:00:43 <zzo38> Now say terrify.
02:00:48 <zzo38> Now say tissue.
02:00:53 <zzo38> Now say them both fast together.
02:00:55 <oerjan> the name rings a bell
02:01:05 <zzo38> Do you ever wonder why women always get a place to sleep?
02:01:32 <oerjan> no.
02:01:53 * oerjan has no idea what terrifytissue is supposed to mean
02:02:12 <zzo38> Well, I suppose it is because it is the weaker sex.
02:02:19 <zzo38> I don't think so. I believe they are stronger.
02:02:20 <alise> zzo38: You /are/ joking, right?
02:02:24 <zzo38> Do you know why I believe that?
02:02:30 <zzo38> Because they get enough sleep, that's why.
02:03:04 <alise> xD
02:03:14 <zzo38> alise: Actually I am just quoting something from this pinball game, those are the speech they say in the background it is probably from some old movie or something like that
02:05:32 <zzo38> Wow! I'm really good! I hit all of the drop targets!
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02:18:02 <calamari> dpkg lives!!!!
02:18:34 <oerjan> death powered killing golems
02:18:55 <calamari> ooh death-powered, I like that :)
02:19:12 <calamari> is there a special power released in death?
02:19:35 <oerjan> apparently.
02:20:35 <calamari> now to see if I can compile egobf for android
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02:40:26 <calamari> well this would seem to answer my question except it doesn't work http://www.uclibc.org/FAQ.html#gnu_malloc
02:41:43 <Gregor> calamari: It doesn't work? How so?
02:42:14 <calamari> egobfi8-bfi.o: In function `bf_interpret':
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x74): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x240): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x34c): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:41 <Gregor> I got that.
02:42:44 <Gregor> But how does the solution not work.
02:42:57 <Gregor> Also, chalk that up to "when I wrote egobf, I sucked at autoconf" :P
02:42:57 <calamari> export jm_cv_func_working_malloc=yes
02:42:58 <calamari> export ac_cv_func_malloc_0_nonnull=yes
02:43:12 <calamari> well I suck at autoconf*inf
02:43:22 <Gregor> Did you murder your config.status first?
02:43:30 <Gregor> I think that'll override exports if you're not careful.
02:43:48 <calamari> trying
02:44:21 <calamari> didn't help.. going to see if I can figure out how to add MALLOC_GLIBC_COMPA
02:44:25 <calamari> +T
02:44:38 <Gregor> Uhh, presumably you're trying NOT to recompile libc here, right?
02:44:48 <Gregor> Oh, or are you not using Android's libc at all?
02:44:56 <calamari> oh I was assuming that was something for autoconf
02:45:13 <Gregor> Nope
02:45:17 <calamari> I'm using Android's libc.. bionic
02:45:36 <Gregor> Stupid fix: Configure, edit config.h to remove the relevant #define, and pray it doesn't regenerate it.
02:48:04 <alise> I think Gregor will like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw
02:48:10 <alise> Available in stunning 1080p HD!
02:48:30 <alise> It just seems like the kind of thing Gregor would link in here ten times in five minutes. :P
02:49:45 <Gregor> Hey hey hey ... I don't relink things with that frequency all that often ...
02:49:50 <alise> Suuuure
02:50:11 <calamari> lol the subtitles are hd, that's about it
02:50:27 <alise> Nothing wrong with HD subtitles!
02:51:17 <Gregor> ... wtf.
02:51:19 <Gregor> wtfwtfwtf
02:51:22 <alise> ftw
02:51:25 <alise> wat
02:51:32 <Gregor> I'll spam link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 instead
02:51:47 <alise> You just don't appreciate the beauty of music.
03:03:58 <calamari> compiled.. trying it raw
03:08:37 <calamari> I guess egobfc doesn't make much sense to include
03:12:06 <calamari> so fast hehe
03:13:44 <calamari> Gregor: apt will have to wait because it requires libraries I don't have yet
03:16:22 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=364dzVsBs2o#t=0m57s <-- This washing machine hates tomato plants.
03:16:25 <alise> Really, really loathes them.
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04:05:51 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/computergameidea
04:06:01 <zzo38> Which idea do you like/dislike?
04:09:03 <alise> "Sokoban on drugs!!"
04:10:26 <zzo38> Do you have anything to expand any of these?
04:10:34 <zzo38> Like, to add additional comments?
04:13:53 <oerjan> <6> is not a game
04:13:55 * oerjan ducks
04:14:22 <zzo38> Make it a game... with that title....
04:14:30 <oerjan> *WHOOSH*
04:14:34 <alise> zzo38: pipe
04:14:40 <alise> think
04:18:08 <Sgeo> Is SICP available free? Will I learn _good_ design from it?
04:18:22 <zzo38> What is SICP?
04:18:47 <Gregor> omfg
04:18:48 <Gregor> OMFG
04:18:50 <Gregor> I WANT <5>
04:18:52 <Gregor> WANT
04:19:56 <Sgeo> Dislike the title-only ideas
04:20:10 <alise> Sgeo: You won't learn good design from it because it's nothing like C#.
04:20:34 <Sgeo> alise, sarcasm, I presume? Or are you saying that I won't learn good _OOP_ design from it?
04:20:52 <alise> I meant you specifically won't because of C# Syndrome.
04:21:17 <Sgeo> C# Syndrome?
04:21:32 <Sgeo> I've known C# for less than a year
04:21:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I can understand you dislike the title-only ideas because it is only a title, it doesn't really help much, but it is possible to imagination more about what it might be like, a bit
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04:22:14 <Sgeo> I've known Python for... 6 years I think. If there's a Python syndrome, I may have it, but not C# Syndrome
04:22:52 <zzo38> Would you have any more specific ideas about anything on this list? Different people can have different ideas about it, I guess. And then if that is not specific enough other people (including me or even other people who did before) can add on to that, and so on
04:24:17 <Sgeo> <13> sounds like it would be an interesting puzzle game
04:24:43 <Sgeo> How is <5> not a subset of <8>?
04:24:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: It might, if I can think of how it might work
04:24:47 <oerjan> the magritte's pipes game could contain a lot of objects that look like pipes but turn out not to be when you pick them up
04:25:14 <oerjan> and pipe-looking landscape features, and such
04:25:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: <5> and <8> are two different things. By <8> I was thinking of something like "Tetanus on Drugs" (a GameBoy Advance game, Damian Yerrick wrote it and it is GNU GPL licensed)
04:33:59 <alise> Goodnight.
04:34:13 <Sgeo> Night alise
04:34:27 <alise> Bye.
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04:35:42 <zzo38> Did you know there are pink rotary payphones in Japan?
04:36:33 <zzo38> They are found in the back of issue 26:3 of 2600
04:37:46 <cheater99> can they be blueboxed
04:38:03 <zzo38> cheater99: I don't know. I wonder if someone has tried.
04:38:11 <zzo38> (Do you mean blueboxed? Or redboxed?)
04:38:37 <zzo38> (Redbox is the one for payphones, usually)
04:39:02 <cheater99> blue.
04:39:11 <cheater99> as in, the one that lets you do free international phonecalls.
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04:39:29 <zzo38> cheater99: Yes, that is what the blue one can be used for
04:39:50 <cheater99> An early phreaking tool, the blue box is an electronic device that simulates a telephone operator's dialing console. It functions by replicating the tones used to switch long-distance calls and using them to route the user's own call, bypassing the normal switching mechanism. The most typical use of a blue box was to place free telephone calls
04:39:54 <zzo38> (Although to be specific, the blue box is simply used to generate a different type of tones than standard DTMF)
04:41:43 <zzo38> Silverbox is the one for generating sixteen DTMF tones. As far as anyone knows you can't make free calls with it, but it can be used to automatically dial phones or to send DTMF to a remote service that uses DTMF even if you have only a rotary phone.
04:42:04 <zzo38> However, I have tried this, the four extra tones do stop the dial tone on the phone I have at home!
04:43:02 <zzo38> So the service over here does recognize them, but might just treat any telephone number containing them as invalid, I don't actually know.
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05:15:33 <coppro> idea: language where some commands are of the form <duration> <noun> <conjunction> <noun>
05:24:07 <calamari> 1 second apples and oranges?
05:37:17 <Gregor> Awesome :P
05:37:35 <coppro> I just want "millenium hand and shrimp" to be legal
05:47:06 <Sgeo_> coppro++
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06:28:02 <zzo38> You haven't written it in green--your notes will be all wrong.
06:28:57 <zzo38> My conversion program Icoruma->TeX (without LaTeX) works completely perfectly when there are no tables involved!
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08:56:15 <Flonk> Hi.
09:01:04 <ais523> hi
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12:37:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, is your first name Alex?
12:37:21 <ais523> yes
12:37:49 * Phantom_Hoover kicks himself
12:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I always thought it was Adam for some reason.
13:20:29 <olsner> I always thought it was ais523
13:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what does the 'i' stand for?
13:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Ivan?
13:25:49 <ais523> not quite
13:25:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Igor?
13:25:54 <ais523> does it really matter, though?
13:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover> YES
13:27:15 * Phantom_Hoover can't think of any other male names beginning with I...
13:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Ian?
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13:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
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14:02:15 <Flonk> g'day
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14:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> thanatos?
14:06:31 <thanatos> yep
14:07:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i have thoughts on os, will discuss soon
14:07:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, thoughts!
14:08:16 <thanatos> os?
14:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> thanatos, are you sane?
14:08:30 <thanatos> nop
14:08:32 <alise> sane people ruin oses
14:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, fair enough.
14:10:38 <alise> :P
14:13:19 <thanatos> something more about sane people?
14:13:32 <alise> ?
14:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what are the thoughts?
14:14:18 <thanatos> thoughts are illusion
14:15:26 <alise> thanatos: this channel is for programming
14:15:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: busy atm will tell in a little while]
14:15:40 <alise> *while
14:16:28 <thanatos> esoteric is about programming? :o
14:16:55 <alise> this channel is about esoteric programming languages
14:16:57 <alise> not esoterica.
14:16:57 <alise> sorry.
14:17:19 <alise> maybe try somewhere else than freenode, this is a programming network mostly, for an esoterica channel
14:17:23 <thanatos> don't believe you :)
14:17:30 <alise> ...
14:17:38 <alise> thanatos: see the topic
14:17:42 <alise> * Topic for #esoteric is: (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
14:17:44 <alise> some code
14:17:48 <alise> esolangs - esoteric languages
14:17:51 <alise> nearly-arbitrary code
14:17:55 <alise> or look at the logs
14:18:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: back me up here
14:18:36 <thanatos> em....
14:19:12 <Phantom_Hoover> cp alise alise.old
14:19:14 <Phantom_Hoover> There.
14:19:23 <alise> har
14:19:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, now *I* need to go.
14:19:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: gah! for how long?
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14:22:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ?
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14:22:42 <Fallensn0w> hiya
14:22:48 <alise> hi
14:22:53 <Fallensn0w> whats up
14:23:06 <alise> esoteric programming
14:23:43 <Fallensn0w> lol ^^
14:23:54 <Fallensn0w> what lang?
14:24:00 <alise> any :p
14:24:06 <Fallensn0w> lol
14:25:02 <Fallensn0w> whats your fav esoteric lang lol
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14:25:28 <alise> underload or one of cpressey's or oklopol's, not sure which
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14:26:03 <Fallensn0w> oh cool
14:26:25 <Fallensn0w> underload's easy to program in though xd
14:26:40 <alise> (cpressey = Befunge, noit o' mnain worb, 5000 others -- catseye.tc guy)
14:26:44 <alise> (oklopol = insane)
14:26:50 <Fallensn0w> lol
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14:51:12 <olsner> cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel
14:52:17 <oklopol> Fallensn0w: what have you done in underload?
14:53:23 <oklopol> oh fallen snow, i thought it was fall en[d]s now
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14:56:20 <oklopol> Alex INTERCAL Smith
14:56:41 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover is a bit slow isn't he
14:57:09 <oklopol> i guess this would make more sense if ais had chosen the name, now he'd have to have changed it
15:28:09 <olsner> sweet, Intercal is an awesome given name
15:28:15 <olsner> I wonder why I haven't realized before
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15:48:34 <alise> <olsner> cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel
15:48:41 <alise> haha, no
15:49:32 <olsner> orly?
15:51:04 <alise> well he is the NIH every-system-sucks let's-reinvent-computing types; and, man, just look at his esolangs
15:51:33 <AnMaster> who is the sanest person here then?
15:51:35 <alise> actually while trying to figure out how Whothm works recently I ran into this quote from the documentation... (sec)
15:51:47 <alise> "I'd love to tell you about Whothm, but first I need to tell you about Joanie, the Gnostic Babysitter. Have you seen her? She's a very normal twelve-year-old girl, with very normal twelve-year-old girl concerns — she worries if her friends will make fun of her for liking different music than they do, worries if that cute boy in home room likes her or not, worries if she'll be able to achieve a transcendant state of gnosis at the moment of her physical de
15:51:47 <alise> ath so that her soul may be freed from the reincarnation cycle. Because, you see, she's a Gnostic. Not just curious about Gnosticism, not just going through a phase, or anything like that — Joanie is a die-hard, demiurge-rejecting, rotten-material-world-shunning Gnostic. And she charges $15 an hour.
15:51:47 <alise> OK, now I can tell you about Whothm."
15:51:55 <alise> So, yeah, I would very much doubt sanity.
15:52:04 <alise> AnMaster: Hehehe...
15:52:33 <AnMaster> alise, well, it isn't you :P
15:52:38 <olsner> alise: but... every system *does* suck, and computing *should* be reinvented :P
15:52:40 <alise> It's you.
15:52:45 <alise> olsner: yes, but :)
15:52:47 <AnMaster> I would say ais except for INTERCAL and feather
15:52:55 <alise> ais is definitely crazy.
15:52:58 <alise> it's you. it's why you're boring
15:53:06 <AnMaster> hm
15:53:07 <AnMaster> :(
15:53:13 <alise> (*not POV, others have called you the sanest e.g. oerjan :D)
15:53:17 <AnMaster> alise, Deewiant is pretty sane too
15:53:30 <alise> hmm
15:53:32 <alise> he uses D.
15:53:35 <AnMaster> wait, nvm, x86-64 asm for that dobela interpreter
15:53:36 <AnMaster> so not sane
15:53:43 <AnMaster> (% typos)
15:54:13 <AnMaster> alise, olsner seems quite sane
15:54:20 <alise> no.
15:54:29 <AnMaster> can't remember him doing much but idling and saying a few lines every now and then
15:54:34 <olsner> alise: :)
15:55:34 <AnMaster> alise, hm... Sgeo is not actually insane is he? ... Just obsessed.
15:55:51 <olsner> but it is true that I mostly idle around here...
15:56:27 <alise> AnMaster: necrophile
15:56:33 <AnMaster> alise, who?
15:56:36 <alise> AnMaster: sgeo
15:56:39 <AnMaster> wf
15:56:39 <alise> AnMaster: & thinks C# is nice
15:56:40 <AnMaster> wtf*
15:56:46 <alise> whoosh
15:56:49 <AnMaster> oh wait, this is a PSOX joke
15:56:50 <AnMaster> right?
15:56:53 <alise> no
15:56:59 <AnMaster> activeworlds joke then
15:57:08 <AnMaster> that is really as good as dead
15:57:09 <alise> yes, & other old VRs
15:57:15 <alise> coppro invented the necrophile thing :P
15:57:19 <alise> "The main purpose of trigraphs and digraphs is so you can say "neener, neener, you didn't do it right" to some poor sap trying to write a tool that processes C and C++ source code." -- Walter Bright
15:57:29 <olsner> AnMaster: besides, all my esoteric projects are all idling right now, waiting for my compiler to mature so I have something to write them in :)
15:57:32 <AnMaster> alise, XD
15:57:36 <alise> olsner: what, that M++ thing?
15:57:45 <olsner> no, a different thing
15:57:52 <alise> cool, what?
15:58:10 <AnMaster> alise, I have to admit... I used them for that a couple of times. Only against people who I knew wouldn't take it badly though
15:58:16 <AnMaster> alise, oh and what about cpp and TC?
15:58:20 <AnMaster> got anywhere with that?
15:58:35 <alise> AnMaster: I think cpp is on the border between TC and not.
15:58:52 <alise> If someone linked me to the Game of Life implementation I could see if the lists would work.
15:59:06 <AnMaster> game of life implementation of cpp?
15:59:09 <AnMaster> wtf?
15:59:13 <olsner> alise: nothing fancy really, kind of C-ish with modules instead of includes, and some random syntax changes
15:59:36 <AnMaster> olsner, gc?
15:59:40 <alise> AnMaster: other way around
15:59:41 <alise> GoL in CPP
15:59:47 <alise> olsner: shame, i was hoping some crazy functional crap :)
15:59:52 <olsner> I have haskell for that
15:59:55 <AnMaster> alise, ah, I would link you, except I never heard about it before today
16:00:03 <alise> olsner: haskell is insufficiently theoretical (type system is too weak)
16:00:09 <alise> AnMaster: it's what spurred the TC cpp discussion
16:00:10 <alise> but it has a finite grid
16:00:13 <alise> so it's not in and of itself a proof
16:00:16 <AnMaster> aha
16:00:22 <alise> "in and of itself" is such a weird idiom
16:00:30 <AnMaster> agreed
16:00:30 <olsner> well, I do have a couple of ideas for crazy functional crap... dunno if/when I'll get around to implementing any of them though
16:00:47 <AnMaster> alise, almost as weird as "x is all but y"
16:00:56 <AnMaster> (which is probably not weird to a native speaker)
16:01:38 <alise> at least "in and of itself" can be expanded to "in itself, and of itself"
16:01:39 <alise> so
16:01:48 <alise> "it's not, in itself, and of itself, a proof"
16:01:53 <alise> which is a lot more parseable
16:02:06 <alise> I bet Swedish has crazy idioms, though.
16:02:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100731_010-027.jpg -- it's quite color-bandy, since it was snapped with the phone's normal camera app with full-auto settings, and also the sun took a peek at some point so the lighting changed; I did try the "LDR, variable WB" exposure optimization, but it mostly got the foresty part the same green, but made the sky be horribly surreal.
16:02:32 <fizzie> (Should've just done raw with fcam, but it's a bit slower, and didn't want to inconvenience others.)
16:02:36 <olsner> otoh, since I've been reading TaPL I will aim to get a proper type system into this language
16:02:36 <alise> int main(void)
16:02:36 <alise> {
16:02:36 <alise> auto a = puts((char[:>)<%a='a'+'\a',-~a,!(int<:'a']){[!!'a':>="a"<:!a]%>});
16:02:36 <alise> return 0;
16:02:36 <alise> }
16:02:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, tried ldr, variable but with camera response unchecked?
16:02:54 <alise> olsner: If it's as weak as Haskell's I will shoot you.
16:02:57 <AnMaster> that tends to give better results
16:02:58 <olsner> I've been thinking about just using simply typed lambda calculus as the type system
16:03:03 <alise> (If it has typeclasses I will shoot you.)
16:03:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, need a small error still
16:03:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hm, no; I could try that.
16:03:11 <alise> olsner: doesn't work
16:03:18 <alise> olsner: because, we need a type *, being the type of types
16:03:22 <alise> and for A,B in *
16:03:27 <alise> we conclude A->B in *
16:03:28 <alise> whereas
16:03:31 <alise> for A,B in X
16:03:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, way quicker too
16:03:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's approximately from here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=60.215859,21.292362&spn=0.080239,0.208569&t=h&z=13
16:03:40 <alise> we conclude \(x:A). (y:B) in A->B
16:03:46 <alise> olsner: ^ so we can see that this does not work
16:03:54 <AnMaster> why is my internet so slow
16:03:58 <AnMaster> or wait
16:04:00 <AnMaster> your upload
16:04:01 <AnMaster> that's it
16:04:02 <alise> olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated
16:04:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is.
16:04:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, sorry
16:04:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting
16:05:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, 360°?
16:05:21 <AnMaster> very nice though
16:05:27 <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:05:36 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:05:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones
16:05:50 -!- alise has joined.
16:05:55 <alise> someone paste the last few lines plz
16:05:57 <alise> thx
16:05:59 <alise> :P
16:06:03 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:06:04 <AnMaster> * alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:06:04 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones
16:06:10 <alise> more than that, I need
16:06:15 <alise> I missed more due to freeze
16:06:20 <AnMaster> <alise> olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated
16:06:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is.
16:06:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, sorry
16:06:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting
16:06:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, 360°?
16:06:24 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> very nice though
16:06:26 <alise> thank you
16:06:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:06:28 <AnMaster> alise, freeze?
16:06:46 <olsner> alise: hmm, I don't understand what you're saying, but do you have a reference to that De Bruijn proof checker you were talking about?
16:06:49 <alise> yeah, typing didn't work, nothing worked, ctrl+alt+f1 didn't work, just jerky mouse movements worked.
16:06:52 <fizzie> "Try drinking some antifreeze." (Note: do not actually try that.)
16:06:56 <alise> olsner: Freek has written about it.
16:07:00 <AnMaster> alise, sysrq?
16:07:07 <alise> olsner: anyway: do you mean just using the STLC type system?
16:07:13 <alise> olsner: I thought you meant using STLC terms as types
16:07:24 <olsner> using STLC terms as types
16:07:36 <alise> AnMaster: forgot to try
16:07:50 <alise> olsner: right. Well, you'd represent the type of a function from A to B as what, then?
16:07:50 <AnMaster> alise, hm
16:08:00 <AnMaster> alise, nothing in logs after reboot?
16:08:14 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:08:42 <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:09:17 <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:09:29 -!- alise has joined.
16:09:32 <alise> It's fizzie's damn picture.
16:09:40 <alise> Makes Firefox hang the system when loading.
16:09:53 <fizzie> alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post.
16:09:57 <olsner> fail, I wrote two lines of response just between "alise has quit" and "alise has joined"
16:10:01 <alise> Well, firefox doesn't like it.
16:10:10 <olsner> <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:10:10 <olsner> <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:10:10 <alise> 08:08:42 <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:10:10 <alise> 08:09:17 <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:10:11 <fizzie> Perhaps it's the content. Your system can't handle the pristine wilderness!
16:10:24 <alise> olsner: how hideously pointless is that? that's equivalent to (void (*) (int, int))
16:10:47 <olsner> obviously, in reality you wouldn't use it to write pointless examples
16:10:50 <AnMaster> <fizzie> alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post. <-- true
16:11:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, but I always use progressive jpeg
16:11:03 <alise> olsner: well anyway there has been a lot of good research done on type systems and i recommend you pick a better one ;)
16:11:05 <AnMaster> not sure if that affects anything
16:11:20 <alise> olsner: i guess O'Caml's type system might be a good one to look at?
16:11:31 <alise> then again, maybe your system will work and I am a hopeless ...theoretician; wow, that's a word.
16:11:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, I still wish I had the stuff needed to make a 360° spherical at full optical zoom. HDR.
16:11:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would be quite a bit over 100 MP iirc
16:11:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Any sort of variable-wb seems to insist on freaky sky (but nicely matching greenery); I think it simply needs more-than-two-parameters color correction in order to make both the sky and the shrubberies (ni!) match.
16:12:10 <AnMaster> XD
16:12:15 <olsner> alise: it should surely "work" as in "produce types", the practical usability is a different question :)
16:12:38 <alise> olsner: of course.
16:12:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, very strange that though... That it would need more than 2 var wb
16:12:47 <oklopol> if types are first order beings, then why not just call them sets
16:12:59 <alise> oklopol: Coq and Agda do
16:13:06 <alise> oklopol: except Coq has Type with Set and Prop as descendants
16:13:08 <AnMaster> alise, what system specs btw?
16:13:10 <alise> since propositions aren't really sets that much.
16:13:14 <AnMaster> alise, since firefox here likes it
16:13:15 <alise> AnMaster: more than good enough
16:13:22 <alise> AnMaster: CPU isn't the fastest, but it blazes all the time
16:13:30 <AnMaster> alise, sempron 3300+, 1.5 GB RAM. 72 tabs in firefox
16:13:33 <alise> olsner: i do warn you that if you introduce a type system like that you will end up with a functional language with bad syntax, unintentionally :D
16:13:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess the default camera app might do any sort of "color-correction" postprocessing. It does some sort of edge-enhancing thing and horribly artifacty noise reduction already.
16:13:40 <AnMaster> alise, a bit slow to zoom in and out but otherwise just fine
16:13:41 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, well, evidently there's some issue here with that imgae.
16:13:43 <alise> *image
16:13:49 <alise> i don't really need you to brag about how your system manages it
16:14:21 <AnMaster> alise, I'm just pointing out that my old system manages it. Are you using that old thing with windows xp barely running on it?
16:14:24 <alise> What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed
16:14:28 <alise> I am crying
16:14:36 <alise> AnMaster: no, I'm running my good Toshiba
16:14:40 <alise> AnMaster: which has 4 GiB of RAM.
16:14:49 <AnMaster> alise, no smell of solder yet? ;P
16:14:57 <alise> and, yes, only a 1.3 GHz dual-core Core 2, but dammit, ghz don't matter, it's fast
16:15:06 <AnMaster> <alise> What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed <-- ? The first got renamed didn't it? The second I have no clue about
16:15:10 <alise> and I usually have 100+ CSS-y Javascript-y tabs open in firefox, so nyah
16:15:11 <AnMaster> or do you mean something more recent?
16:15:18 <AnMaster> as in, breaking news?
16:15:24 <alise> http://gizmodo.com/5601514/the-triceratops-never-existed-it-was-actually-a-young-version-of-another-dinosaur
16:15:27 <alise> See the title in that URL.
16:15:35 <alise> So, yes, new news; just not breaking.
16:16:10 <olsner> hmm, I may also try to introduce type-functions that can produce code ... so many different ideas, I'll probably end up implementing none of them!
16:16:27 <AnMaster> alise, ah interesting
16:16:30 <alise> Oh:
16:16:31 <alise> "It was already known that triceratops skulls changed throughout their development, but not that the final result was a torosaurus. Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner."
16:16:41 <alise> So more shoddy Gizmodo reporting. This is why I read engadget!
16:16:48 <AnMaster> where is the date that was posted
16:16:53 <alise> olsner: type inferring is a bitch btw :P
16:16:58 <alise> AnMaster: sidebar at the top
16:17:02 <alise> gizmodo is also horribly laid out
16:17:14 <AnMaster> ah there
16:17:17 <alise> although engadget's redesign is also shit.
16:17:29 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not sure how dinosaurs apply to either site
16:17:42 <olsner> alise: yeah, also it's awesome so I'd like to have that too :P
16:17:44 <alise> They tend to both include semi-random stuff the audience will like.
16:17:54 <alise> olsner: THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS
16:18:38 <AnMaster> how large were those young triceratops?
16:19:04 <alise> dunno
16:19:15 <alise> but yeah, dammit, "Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner."
16:19:20 <alise> Gizmodo ruined my childhood TEMPORARILY.
16:19:22 <AnMaster> mhm
16:19:31 <AnMaster> what?
16:19:42 <AnMaster> I get the temp bit
16:19:43 <alise> And Gizmodo KEPT A STOLEN PRE-RELEASE IPHONE 4.
16:19:47 <alise> Engadget would NEVER be so evil.
16:19:49 <alise> :|
16:19:52 <AnMaster> but I don't get why it would ruin your childhood
16:19:57 <alise> AnMaster: DINOSORZ
16:20:15 <alise> "I almost took this seriously and then I discovered it was on Gizmodo." --reddit THE PUBLIC ARE TIRING OF INFERIOR GADGETRY SITES
16:20:20 <alise> *I am only getting paid a lot to say this
16:20:29 <AnMaster> what about them?
16:20:34 <AnMaster> dinosaurs I mean
16:21:37 <alise> DINO SORRRRRZ
16:22:42 <AnMaster> sorry, didn't get that. Too much static. Try resending with reed-solomon
16:23:11 <alise> Open sores
16:23:19 <AnMaster> old
16:23:59 <alise> Well, Ubuntu Rhythmbox has finally jumped off the deep-end and now opens on the Ubuntu One ... view, tab, whatever, rather than the library.
16:24:05 <alise> Clooooooooooooooooud Stooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaage
16:24:19 <AnMaster> -_-
16:24:23 <AnMaster> alise, in what version?
16:24:29 <alise> 10.04.
16:25:01 <alise> Maybe it doesn't, maybe I did something. But I don't think so.
16:25:16 <AnMaster> huh, doesn't here. Maybe I uninstalled that part early on.
16:25:24 <AnMaster> since there is actually no such tab
16:25:25 <AnMaster> at all
16:25:42 <alise> Probably you hid the tab or something.
16:25:57 <alise> Hmm, now it starts in the proper tab.
16:26:09 <alise> AnMaster: You have the side pane on right?
16:26:13 <alise> Have you got "Stores" hidden?
16:26:22 <AnMaster> err, just closed it *reopens to check*
16:26:57 <alise> So, I gotta finds me a music player. Not Banshee, Banshee is iTunes.
16:27:02 <AnMaster> yes, says Library with several headings under it: (reverse i18ned titles): play queue, music, podcasts, radio
16:27:04 <alise> Maybe Quod Libet like last time, but *eh*
16:27:08 <AnMaster> then there is a playlist heading a bit below
16:27:14 <alise> AnMaster: and no Stores heading?
16:27:18 <alise> then you're not on 10.04.
16:27:33 <AnMaster> containing some "my hig...", "last pla..." and "most recently add.."
16:27:39 <alise> I don't like Exaile because it uses vertical tabs and those are an abomination
16:27:41 <AnMaster> no stores anywhere
16:27:52 <AnMaster> and I am on luicd
16:27:59 <alise> Dammit, why has nobody created something as good as Amarok 1 yet :P
16:28:02 <alise> (Amarok 2 is crap)
16:28:22 <AnMaster> alise, but I think I removed all packages that showed up on a search for ubuntu-one
16:28:30 <alise> AnMaster: That's probably it, then.
16:28:41 <alise> AnMaster: That probably uninstalled ubuntu-desktop. Maybe not the best idea.
16:28:53 <AnMaster> alise, no, ubuntu-desktop is still installed
16:29:01 <AnMaster> I think they were recommends instead of depends
16:29:02 <AnMaster> or such
16:29:04 <alise> Huh. Okay.
16:29:08 <alise> I think I might do that.
16:29:15 <alise> Fucking Canonical.
16:29:26 <AnMaster> alise, of course with recommends you probably need to override some setting to make it treat it closer to suggests instead
16:29:29 <alise> How dare they try and make a profit, darned company :P
16:29:38 <AnMaster> alise, :P
16:29:46 <alise> It is terribly intrusive though.
16:30:03 <AnMaster> alise, install debfoster
16:30:06 <alise> Grr, I really should just implement my Perfect Music Daemon and Client.
16:30:10 <AnMaster> very good to clean up the mess after upgrades ;P
16:30:19 <alise> AnMaster: you don't need debfoster
16:30:22 <alise> and it's deprecated since 2006
16:30:26 <AnMaster> alise, oh?
16:30:33 <alise> AnMaster: you do install with aptitude, right?
16:31:06 <AnMaster> alise, varies. apt-get, aptitude or synaptic
16:31:13 <alise> AnMaster: well, do not use apt-get. ever
16:31:19 <Quadrescence> i always use apt-get
16:31:24 <alise> why? it's like using dpkg. aptitude is the official debian package manager. And, furthermore:
16:31:28 <AnMaster> alise, it supports the "installed as dep" stuff
16:31:31 <alise> aptitude automatically debfosters on every action basically.
16:31:39 <AnMaster> alise, yes that is annoying
16:31:43 <alise> and this is why
16:31:44 <alise> "As of 2006-01-01, debfoster is officially deprecated: aptitude does the same stuff as debfoster but integrated into the apt system. To convert your debfoster data to the aptitude database, use the conversion script."
16:31:48 <AnMaster> I only want it to do that when I tell it to
16:31:52 <alise> AnMaster: Okay, then: "apt-get autoremove".
16:31:55 <AnMaster> indeed
16:31:57 <alise> Where's your debfoster now?
16:32:01 <alise> In HELL.
16:32:21 <AnMaster> alise, because it seems on jaunty the entire default package set was marked as manually installed by default
16:32:34 <AnMaster> and that didn't resolve completely after upgrading to lucid
16:32:41 <AnMaster> so there is where
16:32:51 <alise> Good lord, why do people suck so much as software.
16:33:02 <AnMaster> hm?
16:33:29 <alise> Songbird? Wikipedia, why the fuck do you call SONGBIRD a music player? It's more like a hideous Firefoxed abomination that simultaneously rips off iTunes, makes it somehow SLOWER, and adds a bunch of crap!
16:33:31 <alise> Rage. Raaage.
16:33:39 <alise> "Linux support for Songbird was discontinued in April, 2010." and nothing of value was lost
16:33:59 <alise> AnMaster: tl;dr software sucks
16:34:02 <AnMaster> mozilla dropped linux support in a product?
16:34:24 <alise> Songbird isn't Mozilla.
16:34:29 <AnMaster> ah
16:34:30 <alise> It just uses Firefox as the base code or something.
16:34:32 <AnMaster> that explains it
16:34:36 <alise> Because it wants to be hellish and awful.
16:34:39 <alise> Which it succeeds at.
16:34:55 <alise> It is literally the biggest, slowest, most bloated piece of software that only irritates you that I have ever seen.
16:34:59 <alise> X has been displaced.
16:35:18 <AnMaster> alise, yes. Btw I started using mobile versions of sites that have that even on desktop. Stuff like the Swedish equiv of BBC and such
16:35:21 <AnMaster> way faster
16:35:31 <AnMaster> loads like in a snap, unlike their normal site
16:35:35 <alise> Hee, in Britain our BBC has a well-designed website by default that loads instantly.
16:35:40 <AnMaster> and easier to navigate
16:35:44 <AnMaster> alise, yes indeed
16:35:52 <alise> And it, unbelievably, has a clean and simple, typographically-oriented design!
16:36:04 <alise> /And/ it's actually standards-compliant, and uses /RDF/:
16:36:05 <alise> <head profile="http://dublincore.org/documents/dcq-html/">
16:36:12 <alise> /And/ their devs have blogs and stuff.
16:36:14 <AnMaster> alise, compare loading time: http://mobil.sr.se/ http://sr.se/
16:36:33 <alise> AnMaster: Wow, sr.se loads slowly and is ugly.
16:36:42 <alise> http://mobil.sr.se/ is a bit craply designed for screen though, obviously.
16:37:00 <alise> AnMaster: Now compare with our BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10830485
16:37:02 <AnMaster> alise, wrt sr.se: agreed. It was better before the redesign about a years ago
16:37:03 <alise> I THINK WE WIN
16:37:08 <alise> (Might not load as quickly outside of the UK.)
16:37:16 <AnMaster> and yes the mobile one is obviously designed for stuff like my phone
16:37:22 <AnMaster> it works very well in opera mini on my phone
16:37:49 <alise> What I'm saying here is that if you don't care about human rights or not sucking, we are a better country than you.
16:37:50 <AnMaster> alise, that loads a bit slow from over here. Slightly faster than sr.se though
16:38:07 <AnMaster> alise, iceland ftw
16:38:16 <alise> It takes maybe 1 second or so from completely refresh load (including all CSS, images, etc. from scratch (forced)).
16:38:28 <AnMaster> I assume you saw that stuff about Assange and media heaven on iceland?
16:38:33 <alise> With everything cached apart from the page it loads in maybe .3 seconds.
16:38:36 <AnMaster> (however he spells his name)
16:39:08 <alise> Heh, googling his name returns a bunch of anti-Wikileaks articles in the mainstream media.
16:39:12 <alise> Because of the Afghan stuff.
16:39:20 <alise> "Julian Assange: is 'Wikileaker' a crusade or ego trip?" --Telegraph
16:39:28 <AnMaster> alise, mobil.sr.se loads in a fraction of a second on a complete reload. the bbc link loads in about 1.5 seconds, sr.se in about 2
16:39:28 <alise> AnMaster: But no, I didn't see that.
16:39:39 <alise> Yeah, but complete reloads are pointless :P
16:39:42 <alise> And our site is better designed so nyah
16:39:46 <alise> And you don't have to use the mobile site
16:39:47 <AnMaster> http://www.immi.is/
16:39:48 <AnMaster> alise, ^
16:39:56 <alise> AnMaster: I did hear that Rejkyavik or whatever elected a joke party.
16:40:02 <alise> Which turned out to actually be the best party in the elections.
16:40:17 <AnMaster> alise, check that link out. Assange planted the idea originally from what I read
16:41:09 <alise> Awesome.
16:41:21 <alise> If only they had more than four people in the entire country.
16:41:29 <AnMaster> still, the laws are not in place, they just decided that they will design them and put them in place
16:41:47 <alise> (The four people are Bjork, two of the members of Sigur Rós (the other two are fictional), and the Prime Minister.)
16:41:57 <AnMaster> alise, there is about the same number of people in this Swedish equiv of county where I live and on Iceland. Slightly less on iceland iirc
16:42:42 <AnMaster> alise, Sigur Rós?
16:43:03 <alise> AnMaster: a popular (well, in indie circles) post-rock band from Iceland.
16:43:36 <AnMaster> alise, anyway they have cheap energy on iceland. Thermal energy. Looks like a haven for green data centers as long as you put in a dust filter (ash in the heatsink can't be good!)
16:43:36 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:43:54 <alise> Yeah. I just couldn't live somewhere so tiny, though.
16:44:06 <AnMaster> hm
16:44:25 <alise> Well, as far as people go.
16:44:51 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Islande_-_Rekjavik_du_haut_de_la_cath%C3%A9drale.JPG This is Central Rekjavík. 'Nuff said.
16:45:11 <AnMaster> how many inhabitants in Rekjavik?
16:45:57 <alise> 118,427 in 277.1 km^2. 200,852 in 1,062.24 km^2 in the Greater Reykjavík Area (i.e. the only metropolitan area in Iceland).
16:46:07 <alise> (that latter total includes Reykjavík itself)
16:46:11 <AnMaster> my guess is around the same as this town, which just happens to formally be a city. One of the last ones to become a city before they dropped the concept of special city rights (I think it was around 1920 or 1930 or so)
16:46:23 <AnMaster> wait
16:46:29 <AnMaster> 118,427 inhabitants?
16:46:32 <AnMaster> way more then
16:46:44 <AnMaster> this city/town is like 20000
16:47:02 <alise> Total population of Iceland is 317,593, but the 100,000 or so not in the Greater Reykjavík Area just, like, live in volcanoes or something.
16:47:07 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it's still a very small place.
16:47:14 <alise> AnMaster: Besides.
16:47:20 <alise> AnMaster: The Greater Reykjavík Area is a large area of Iceland.
16:47:32 <AnMaster> yeah, slightly larger than the largest city of this county-equiv.
16:47:34 <alise> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/H%C3%B6fu%C3%B0borgarsv%C3%A6%C3%B0i.svg
16:47:40 <alise> AnMaster: That red portion is the Greater Reykjavík Area.
16:47:45 <alise> So really it's a county.
16:47:47 <AnMaster> hm
16:47:51 <AnMaster> alise, yeah
16:47:54 <alise> And consider that outside of there there is /no metropolises/.
16:47:58 <alise> Just villages and the like.
16:48:04 <alise> *there are /no metropolises/.
16:48:18 <AnMaster> I'm not sure I would call Reykjavík a metropolis as such though
16:48:48 <alise> Newcastle, the nearest city to where I live, has 273,600 people in just 113 km^2.
16:48:52 <AnMaster> In fact I'm pretty sure I *wouldn't*
16:48:58 <alise> So, yeah.
16:48:59 <AnMaster> alise, that's pretty large
16:49:08 <alise> Yeah, but it's a "regular city" so to speak.
16:49:31 <alise> Oh, and Tyneside, a very small portion of England around it, has 800,000.
16:49:36 <AnMaster> alise, remember that Stockholm including suburbs has about 1 000 000 inhabitants iirc
16:49:36 <alise> So yeah: Iceland is /almost empty/.
16:49:41 <AnMaster> London is way larger than that
16:49:49 <alise> AnMaster: Well, Reykjavík has lots of technology and the like.
16:49:58 <AnMaster> so UK "regular city" is larger than Swedish regular city
16:50:03 <alise> It is a very modern city with a lot of enterpriseyness (in fact, all of it in the country!) and the like.
16:50:06 <alise> AnMaster: London is not a regular city.
16:50:18 <AnMaster> alise, well nor is Stockholm around here
16:50:19 <alise> AnMaster: London is /fucking huge/ by anyone's standards.
16:50:28 <alise> Greater London has /7,556,900 people/.
16:50:34 <AnMaster> alise, Stockholm is fucking huge by Swedish standards!
16:50:39 <alise> In just 1,572 km^2.
16:50:57 <AnMaster> and the Icelandic people must lack words to describe the size of london
16:51:15 <alise> "Thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand Reykjavík."
16:51:20 <alise> "Sorry, how many thousands was that?"
16:51:26 <AnMaster> I can't be bothered to count
16:51:39 <AnMaster> alise, scientific notation for the win
16:53:08 <alise> Maybe I should download those Afghan documents in case they get taken down.
16:53:18 <alise> Although they've gotta be on a billion torrents by now.
16:53:26 <alise> AnMaster: "This document, released by WikiLeaks on February 18th 2010 at 19:00 UTC, describes meetings between embassy chief Sam Watson (CDA) and members of the Icelandic government, together with British Ambassador Ian Whiting."
16:53:43 <alise> AnMaster: So much for supporting the Icelandic government for the Modern Media Initiative :D
16:53:49 <AnMaster> alise, oh and London represents about 81% of the entire Swedish population (based on your figure and wikipedia's figure for the Swedish population)
16:54:08 <alise> London is basically a tiny country. :P
16:54:30 <fizzie> This (Finland) is a pretty empty place too, though the Helsinki metropolitan area is approaching something reasonably city-like in most scales; there's a tiny bit over a million in what's counted as the "urban area", and something like 1.3 million in those regions where 10 % or more of people have their jobs in Helsinki.
16:54:42 <AnMaster> I think I would like Iceland, apart from the language
16:55:02 <alise> The language is pretty beautiful though.
16:55:11 <alise> fizzie: You have... things and people and other cities, though.
16:55:15 <AnMaster> yeah but learning it? not a chance
16:55:24 <AnMaster> I hate larger cities. a town on about 20000 is quite nice
16:55:26 <alise> "# U.S. Embassy profiles on Icelandic PM, Foreign Minister, Ambassador"
16:55:38 <alise> Are you /sure/ Iceland decided that initiative because of Wikileaks? :D
16:55:57 <alise> Where I am is quite a nice town.
16:56:08 <alise> 11,139 people.
16:56:10 <alise> But it is a bit ... empty.
16:56:14 <AnMaster> alise, well, I read a few news articles and watched a youtube interview of Assange from 2009
16:56:17 <alise> There's nothing much you can do at all, and few people.
16:56:22 <AnMaster> it was that youtube video that made me look this up
16:56:26 <AnMaster> where he talked about it
16:56:27 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham
16:56:32 <AnMaster> think it was from December 2009
16:56:52 <alise> The Abbey is a bit creepy.
16:56:58 <fizzie> Iceland has a very nice ranking on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density list -- 232nd, in a list of 239.
16:57:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
16:57:17 <alise> fizzie: Fucking Greenland!
16:57:29 <alise> Hey, Australia is cheating.
16:57:36 <AnMaster> anyway that number is not very representative, I mean it varies hugely between different parts of most countries
16:57:41 <fizzie> Norway and Finland both are out of the top-200, but Sweden's in (194th).
16:57:42 <alise> Australia is totally dense in all the places where /there's actually any people/ :P
16:58:01 <alise> Rather than just three people playing digeredoos or however you spell it per square million kilometers.
16:58:07 <AnMaster> having some kind of graph showing distribution of it would be nice, I admit I have to work a bit on what exactly to show
16:58:15 <alise> Hell yeah, Macau
16:58:16 <fizzie> It's representative of the fraction of people in the country and area of the country, nothing more, nothing less.
16:58:17 <AnMaster> a map with color coding for density is obvious
16:58:24 <AnMaster> but I wanted a x/y style graph
16:58:38 <alise> Macau has 18,534.247 people per square kilometre
16:58:41 <alise> *kilometre.
16:58:43 <alise> Beat that.
16:59:06 <alise> (Note: It is only 29.2 km^2.)
16:59:09 <AnMaster> I mean, Sweden is very very unevenly distributed
16:59:17 <alise> Whoa, holy shit, Monaco is only 1.95 km^2. So what do they have apart from the Formula 1 track?
16:59:28 <fizzie> Everything is very unevenly distributed. Well, except places like Monaco.
16:59:31 <AnMaster> in north Sweden you can go for miles without getting a GSM signal (unless you have Telia)
16:59:52 <alise> Why Telia?
16:59:54 <AnMaster> and telia is only because the govt (used to?) own a large part of their shares
16:59:58 <alise> Ah.
16:59:58 <AnMaster> alise, I was getting to that :P
17:00:31 <alise> "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen."
17:00:35 <alise> Sweden is really bad at making things sound elegant.
17:00:42 <AnMaster> alise, they used to be a completely state owned thing. But then there was that rage for making govt stuff private companies during the 1990s
17:00:43 <alise> Almost as bad as German.
17:00:44 <alise> *Swedish
17:00:51 <alise> AnMaster: We had that!
17:00:59 <alise> Thanks, Thatcher.
17:01:00 <fizzie> "Now everything changes. Again."
17:01:02 <alise> Thatcher.
17:01:04 <AnMaster> <alise> "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen." <-- "Now everything change. Again."
17:01:07 <alise> Wait ... that doesn't work.
17:01:10 <AnMaster> I don't think You *can* make that sound good
17:01:17 <AnMaster> it is like the worst slogan ever.
17:01:23 <alise> *you
17:01:27 <alise> and I think Telia invented it
17:01:30 <AnMaster> err typo
17:01:31 <alise> it doesn't appear on Apple's site.
17:01:34 <alise> wait, no, it does
17:01:38 <alise> "This changes everything. Again."
17:01:48 <alise> slightly better than "Now everything changes. Again."
17:01:52 <AnMaster> alise, telia managed to say that maemo was a browser in their desc for n900
17:01:53 <AnMaster> XD
17:01:59 <alise> At least it tells you /what/ is doing the changing.
17:02:32 <fizzie> alise: It's "Nyt kaikki muuttuu. Taas." (which is very close to "Now everything changes. Again.") on Sonera's (the Finnish iPhone exclusivity-holder) site.
17:02:39 <alise> Hey, Apple finally did what they should have done instead of the Mighty Mouse, and released their laptop touchpad as a standalone device.
17:02:42 <alise> Was that really so hard?
17:02:42 <AnMaster> Wait, Sonera?
17:02:48 <alise> AnMaster: TeliaSonera.
17:02:49 <AnMaster> Isn't it TeliaSonera these days? Actually
17:02:50 <AnMaster> yeah
17:02:54 <AnMaster> was getting to that
17:02:59 <alise> WHY DO I KNOW THAT.
17:03:00 <AnMaster> they merged or something
17:03:01 <alise> AnMaster: sonera in finland
17:03:02 <alise> it seems
17:03:03 <alise> http://www.sonera.fi/
17:03:08 <fizzie> The brand's still called Sonera.
17:03:09 <alise> so {Telia, Sonera} are brands of TeliaSonera
17:03:10 <AnMaster> alise, hm and telia in Sweden
17:03:22 <AnMaster> I mean, on stuff like the SIM cards and such it says Telia
17:03:28 <fizzie> The corporation's official name has Telia in it, I believe.
17:03:56 <AnMaster> I believe they use TeliaSonera for there tire1 stuff
17:04:11 <fizzie> Well, there might be also a company called "Sonera" still; corporate ownership is a jungle.
17:04:22 <AnMaster> tier*
17:04:29 <alise> "# Fontvieille was added as fourth ward, a newly constructed area reclaimed from the sea (in the 1970s)"
17:04:35 <alise> Dammit, we deserve more space! RECLAIM THE SEA.
17:04:36 <AnMaster> why do I always mix up tire and tier
17:04:37 <alise> (Monaco)
17:04:43 <fizzie> http://www.teliasonera.com/Markets-and-Brands/ lists that Telia, Halebop (in Sweden) and Sonera, TeleFinland (in Finland) are "majority-owned companies" of TeliaSonera.
17:05:16 <AnMaster> oh yeah, halebop is the so-called low price brand
17:05:25 <fizzie> So's TeleFinland.
17:05:27 <alise> "Note: for statistical purposes, the wards of Monaco are further subdivided into 173 city blocks (îlots)"
17:05:29 <alise> WHAT THE FUCK
17:05:33 <alise> THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS LESS THAN 2 KM^2
17:05:39 <AnMaster> only web support. And when I calculated on the costs, telia turned out cheaper
17:05:43 <AnMaster> how ironic
17:05:44 <olsner> I thought halebop was exclusively pre-paid cards?
17:05:46 <alise> THEN SUBDIVIDE THOSE INTO 173
17:05:51 <fizzie> Also the so-called "obnoxious phone sales" brand.
17:05:54 <alise> each îlot must be like
17:06:01 <alise> one square millimetre
17:06:01 <AnMaster> that was due to sucky student discounts for halebop and better ones for telia
17:06:09 <AnMaster> olsner, nop
17:06:15 <olsner> oh, ok
17:06:29 <alise> fizzie: http://www.tele.fi/
17:06:33 <alise> The person scares me.
17:06:36 <alise> Also the mouse.
17:06:46 <alise> http://www.halebop.se/start
17:06:51 <alise> The woman scares me.
17:06:51 <fizzie> alise: Oh gods, the guy. You should see the animated commercials.
17:06:57 <alise> Also every other drawing.
17:07:14 <alise> fizzie: Thanks to the power of YouTube, I can.
17:07:18 <fizzie> alise: Yes, it seems you can.
17:07:29 <fizzie> Try the "skeittimummo" one for starters.
17:07:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it as bad as that ISP... I think it is bredbandsbolaget or perhaps comhem? They use some animated figure too
17:07:30 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc
17:07:31 <alise> What.
17:07:34 * AnMaster looks at olsner for help
17:07:50 <fizzie> It seems that you selected the right one independently, too.
17:07:56 <alise> Bredbandsbolaget are the only Swedish ISP to offer 100 Mb/s internet, I think.
17:07:57 <alise> Why do I Know that.
17:07:58 <alise> *know that
17:08:00 <alise> *know that.
17:08:12 <alise> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYFwX-H3nY A 3D one.
17:08:12 <olsner> AnMaster: I dunno
17:08:39 <olsner> I don't watch television so I wouldn't have seen any such adverts
17:08:41 <fizzie> alise: Ooh, fancy.
17:08:46 <olsner> alise: plenty others do too
17:09:12 <AnMaster> and tele2 use a sheep. as a stupid play on sheep and cheap. which aren't even pronounced the same way, but do happen to sound quite close if you aren't good at English, due to Swedish missing one of those sound variants
17:09:13 <AnMaster> -_-
17:09:24 <fizzie> We don't have a TV either, but I've still seen those commercials here and there; horrible.
17:09:46 <alise> Area Man[...]
17:10:24 <AnMaster> <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc <-- oh god. What a failure
17:10:40 <AnMaster> I don't watch TV. Could be as bad here. Don't know
17:10:42 <alise> Has anyone listened to an HDCD?
17:10:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's supposed to be "hip", you see.
17:10:52 <olsner> alise: I have comhem 100/10 right now, used to have bahnhof before I moved here (which was technically 100/10 but they didn't seem to actually limit the upload)
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17:11:35 <AnMaster> remember that incomprehensible ad about cars. VW I think
17:11:53 <AnMaster> this reminds me of that. But worse
17:12:06 <alise> Volkswagen adverts tend to be a bit strange.
17:12:16 <AnMaster> alise, wasn't there something about pimp your car
17:12:17 <AnMaster> or such
17:12:22 <alise> Nobody listened to an HDCD?
17:12:28 <AnMaster> alise, what is an HDCD?
17:12:56 <alise> Some patented extension to Redbook stuffing more quality in there, some tricks to get 20 bits of signal out of 16 bit samples it seems.
17:13:00 <alise> Now owned by Microsoft.
17:13:22 <AnMaster> alise, 20 bits out of 16? Go ask CSI for that
17:13:25 <alise> I'm doing some piracy; one of the rips is from the HDCD, so I'm just wondering whether it's worthwhile at all.
17:13:25 <AnMaster> it's impossible
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17:13:30 <AnMaster> unless you mean compressed
17:13:32 <alise> AnMaster:
17:13:33 <AnMaster> or such
17:13:33 <alise> HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.[2][3][4][5]
17:13:33 <alise> HDCD encoding places a control signal in the least significant bit of a small subset of the 16-bit Red Book audio samples (a technique known as in-band signaling). The HDCD decoder in the consumer's CD or DVD player, if present, responds to the signal. If no decoder is present, the disc will be played as a regular CD.
17:13:34 <alise> In itself, the use of the first bit in the dithered least significant bit stream will degrade the sound quality on a non-HDCD player by decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio but only by a minuscule amount. HDCD Peak Extension, if chosen in HDCD mastering, will apply compression to the peaks which will be audible in playback on a non-HDCD system which does not apply the appropriate expansion curve.
17:13:55 <fizzie> Yes, based on the description it's more like 20 bits of dynamic range than 20 bits of precision.
17:13:59 <alise> Yes.
17:14:02 <AnMaster> oh god...
17:14:19 <AnMaster> good thing I haven't run into them. I hate noise
17:14:28 <alise> You don't have golden ears.
17:14:36 <alise> You can't hear it.
17:14:36 <AnMaster> alise, and I doubt I could hear the difference between 16 and 20 bits
17:14:52 <alise> Hehe, if AnMaster is horrified by that, wait until he finds out what psychoacoustic encoders do. (I bet he thinks he can distinguish LAME -V2 from FLAC...)
17:15:27 <AnMaster> alise, no I don't. I do however think I can hear a difference between your average non-lame encoder and flac :P
17:15:50 <alise> Well, if you mean the original one, or that awful one that I forget its name.
17:16:20 <fizzie> Doubtfully you could then hear the difference between 15 bits and 16 bits (w.r.t. added noise), especially if they're being clever with how it alters the least significant bit, and it sounds like they are.
17:16:54 <alise> Wait, why don't I just rip my own copy of the album.
17:17:00 <alise> Oh, right. I don't have a CD drive.
17:17:51 <alise> Eh, I guess I am too resistant to change; I will just download the regular FLAC rip.
17:18:02 <AnMaster> alise, so you installed linux with usb stick?
17:18:04 <alise> ...although the HDCD version does have more seeders...
17:18:06 <AnMaster> or pre-installed?
17:18:08 <AnMaster> or netboot?
17:18:49 <AnMaster> alise, I'm pretty sure you can play an ISO
17:18:50 <alise> AnMaster: Actually, I had no USB stick to hand! I used unetbootin -- random Linux ISO to USB stick + if on Windows USB bootloader installed, program, very useful -- to extract the Ubuntu ISO to the Windows drive (it can do that).
17:18:57 <AnMaster> if nothing else, by using loop mount
17:19:00 <alise> I then booted up with the Unetbootin option in the Windows bootloader on next boot.
17:19:03 <AnMaster> err not mount
17:19:07 <AnMaster> obviously
17:19:12 <AnMaster> losetup still
17:19:13 <alise> And voilà: it booted Ubuntu from the Windows drive.
17:19:28 <alise> Partitioning was fun, since it saw the CD-ROM drive weirdly as it was on another partition, virtual and stuff.
17:19:37 <alise> So I had to do some lazy, forced unmounting, then remounting it so the installer didn't break.
17:19:39 <alise> But it worked!
17:20:09 <AnMaster> alise, had to work on first try, I mean. you get one chance, loading the iso into ram. And then once you overwrite it, it has to work
17:20:22 <alise> AnMaster: Hm?
17:20:34 <alise> No, I failed the first time and even ended up with a GRUB 2 without any files, which could do nothing.
17:20:34 <AnMaster> alise, unless you are dual booting?
17:20:38 <alise> Eventually I fixed it with a USB stick.
17:20:40 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, dual booting.
17:20:47 <alise> AnMaster: This laptop helpfully came with a "data" partition on half the disk.
17:20:49 <alise> So I just used that.
17:20:50 <AnMaster> XD @ that fix
17:21:07 <AnMaster> data partition, huh
17:21:14 <alise> Specifically, I used Unetbootin on the really shitty computer to get a USB stick with GRUB on it.
17:21:20 <alise> I then used GRUB to chainload the Windows bootloader.
17:21:25 <AnMaster> hah
17:21:27 <alise> Once booted in, I used Unetbootin again, and this time did it right.
17:21:34 <alise> And, unbelievably, it worked.
17:21:39 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, separate OS/data partition.
17:21:40 <alise> Like /home partition.
17:21:45 <alise> But more manual.
17:21:51 <AnMaster> right
17:21:58 <AnMaster> how large drive?
17:22:07 <alise> Hmm, why do I have six and a half gigabytes of swap?
17:22:18 <alise> AnMaster: 250 GB total.
17:22:32 <AnMaster> hm,
17:22:48 <alise> AnMaster: 419 MB of what I think is some restore partition, 125 GB unused stock Toshiba-branded Windows 7, 118 GB ext4 Ubuntu, 6.4 GB inexplicable swap.
17:23:07 <AnMaster> 118 GB, won't last long
17:23:10 <AnMaster> wouldn't for me at least
17:23:14 <alise> Consider that this laptop has a battery that lasts almost as long as a netbook's, is basically as light as a MacBook Air,
17:23:15 <fizzie> You can't "play an ISO" if you mean a regular .iso image of an audio CD, because regular .iso images are made of the 2048-byte data sectors, while audio CDs put 2352 bytes of audio data per frame, with less error-correction code.
17:23:32 <alise> has a wonderful screen that is glossy yet this is unnoticeable, but since it's not matte it's usable in daylight, and very high dpi,
17:23:40 <alise> has a good keyboard for a laptop
17:23:41 <alise> etc.
17:23:45 <alise> So I'm happy.
17:24:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that be reflected in the iso file?
17:24:50 <alise> I'm voluntarily using this laptop instead of my iMac. So, yeah, I like it.
17:24:53 <AnMaster> alise, does it have fluid drains from the keyboard?
17:25:06 <alise> No. Wouldn't you just tell me not to spill things, anyway?
17:25:07 <AnMaster> alise, a trackpoint?
17:25:14 <alise> "Gee, you shouldn't be drinking near the computer."
17:25:19 <alise> No, but the trackpad is good and I'm just using a mouse.
17:25:34 <AnMaster> alise, well I would avoid spilling things. It however nice to know that just in case, it is there
17:25:39 <AnMaster> I don't drink near computer
17:25:40 <alise> I never said it's perfect. But all that list I gave you are things my laptop has and yours doesn't. :P
17:25:50 <alise> I drink near the computer, I'm just not in the habit of spilling things.
17:26:03 <alise> Besides, there's a protective layer of some sort underneath the keyboard, obviously; so you could just drain it manually if you really did spill something.
17:26:08 <AnMaster> still, nice to know just in case, at university and such, Someone else might have a water bottle nearby
17:26:59 <alise> It's not like there's a circuit board directly underneath.
17:26:59 <AnMaster> alise, how many express card slots?
17:27:05 <alise> AnMaster: 0. Thank god.
17:27:10 <AnMaster> alise, why is that?
17:27:14 <alise> I never said it was your ideal laptop, just that it was mine.
17:27:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, because there's no metadata in the "file format", if you can call it that; it's just a dump of the data portion of a data CD. You couldn't even have multiple tracks in a .iso image. You can of course have a bit-exact audio CD image (in the .bin/.cue format, or some others), but it won't be a "ISO image" in the usual sense.
17:27:26 <AnMaster> alise, well, I don't use the express card slot
17:27:30 <alise> AnMaster: PC Card esque things are a bit ... awful.
17:27:31 <AnMaster> it is nice to have, just in case
17:27:40 <AnMaster> alise, why?
17:27:42 <alise> Okay, so it's not even that big a deal. But!
17:27:48 <alise> The sides are all filled up.
17:28:05 <alise> I won't sacrifice a display port, one of the four USB ports, the Ethernet port, etc. for it.
17:28:09 <alise> Wait, maybe that is...
17:28:13 <alise> What is that?
17:28:16 <alise> Maybe an SD card slot.
17:28:31 <AnMaster> one useless feature on my laptop: softmodem. There is a modem port at the back. I don't know why anyone still puts that in
17:28:36 <fizzie> ExpressCard is so confusing; there's all kinds of /34 or /54 things, what's up with the slashes. I grew up with PCMCIA/CardBus, and it was good enough for me. Get off my lawn!
17:29:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc I have one express card slot and one PC Card. Or something like that. When looking into the slots the connectors are different at the back anyway
17:30:21 <AnMaster> however, a better use for that area would actually be re-arranging the internal components to have a larger battery pack instead
17:30:24 <fizzie> Right, they would be. ExpressCard/54 and CardBus/"PC Card" have the same width, but the PC Card connector is full-width.
17:30:29 <AnMaster> would be heavier though
17:31:28 <AnMaster> yeah, just checked, bottom one full width and top one less than full width
17:32:00 <AnMaster> alise, how many usb ports?
17:32:10 <alise> Four.
17:32:15 <alise> Two on left, two on right.
17:32:19 <AnMaster> alise, firewire?
17:32:22 <alise> None.
17:32:25 <AnMaster> hah!
17:32:36 <alise> Ha ha ha, wait, I don't give a shit.
17:32:44 <AnMaster> alise, displayport?
17:32:50 <alise> Yes.
17:32:50 <AnMaster> iirc you said you liked it
17:32:52 <AnMaster> hm
17:32:56 <alise> Or, at least, /some/ digital display connector.
17:33:01 <alise> They're so hard to tell apart these days.
17:33:16 <AnMaster> alise, well, which one? isn't there some marking at it indicating which one
17:33:24 <alise> Yes. A rectangle.
17:33:28 <alise> Representing a screen.
17:33:40 <AnMaster> that is what I have about the vga port on this
17:33:58 <AnMaster> the DP one has a stylised D
17:34:02 <fizzie> It's especially hard now that they have three different sizes of standard HDMI ports.
17:34:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, ... why?
17:34:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: Probably they were jealous of USB, which also has "normal", "mini" and "micro" variants.
17:34:40 <AnMaster> alise, check xrandr. It just might tell you something useful
17:34:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: The three HDMI ports are also normal, mini and micro.
17:35:01 <AnMaster> except mine tells me that VGA1, LVDS1, HDMI1, DP1 and DP2 all exist
17:35:03 <alise> HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:05 <AnMaster> where only LVDS is connected
17:35:08 <alise> DP1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:08 <AnMaster> so don't trust it
17:35:08 <alise> DP2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:10 <alise> And VGA1.
17:35:11 <alise> So yeah.
17:35:14 <AnMaster> ah
17:35:15 <alise> LVDS1 has the resolution list.
17:35:17 <alise> And the others don't.
17:35:19 <AnMaster> well yes
17:35:23 <AnMaster> LVDS would be internal
17:35:30 <AnMaster> the other would contain external, if connected
17:35:53 <AnMaster> it can't list monitor resolutions for unconnected monitors, obviously
17:35:56 <alise> Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1366 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192
17:36:00 <alise> 8192 x 8192, fuck yeah
17:36:06 <alise> Will that fry my screen if I try it? :D
17:36:19 <AnMaster> alise, that is X support or something
17:36:20 <AnMaster> I think
17:36:22 <AnMaster> or maybe GPU
17:36:27 <AnMaster> you can't get that on the screen
17:36:29 <alise> Will it downscale it for my screen?
17:36:31 <alise> Or just burp.
17:36:46 <AnMaster> alise, video mode not supported error *probably*, but who knows
17:36:58 <AnMaster> alise, you might get that old style scrollable virtual screen thing of X
17:37:00 <fizzie> If it's not on the actual resolution list, it most probably won't do anything.
17:37:00 <AnMaster> remember that?
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17:37:21 <AnMaster> on my desktop I get: Screen 0: minimum 320 x 240, current 1680 x 1050, maximum 1680 x 1050
17:37:24 <AnMaster> which is strange
17:37:28 <AnMaster> since I know the card supports more
17:37:30 <AnMaster> I used more on it
17:37:31 <fizzie> Though I guess changing the virtual screen size is possible too; I just thought xrandr only handles the physical state of outputs.
17:37:53 <AnMaster> wait, I don't think the xrandr thing is loaded
17:37:54 <AnMaster> maybe
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17:38:05 <AnMaster> there is no invert stuff and such
17:38:23 <AnMaster> indeed, not in the modules list
17:38:27 <fizzie> What, no support for rotations?
17:38:36 <fizzie> Oh, is this the nvidia binary driver?
17:38:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes
17:38:54 <fizzie> It has horrible xrandr support.
17:39:00 <AnMaster> hm
17:39:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay. but until noveau supports 3D well enough for my needs I'm stuck on it.
17:40:01 <fizzie> There's some sort of attempted support that if you pass Option "RandRRotation" to the nvidia driver, it'll try to fake it so that you can set the orientation with it.
17:40:18 <AnMaster> heh
17:40:21 <alise> How can I tell what card I have again? I don't know much about this system.
17:40:40 <AnMaster> alise, lspci, Xorg.0.log, dmesg, lshw ?
17:40:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: On the other hand, "Workstation RGB or CI overlay visuals will function at lower performance and the video overlay will not be available when RandRRotation is enabled."
17:40:46 <fizzie> glxinfo too.
17:40:49 <AnMaster> and that
17:40:59 <fizzie> OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2
17:41:08 <AnMaster> xdpyinfo perhaps
17:41:11 <AnMaster> not sure
17:41:36 <alise> It has even been reported, although apparently without historical documentation, that Adolf Hitler was influenced by concave hollow-Earth ideas and sent an expedition in an unsuccessful attempt to spy on the British fleet by aiming infrared cameras up into the sky[7] (Wagner, 1999).[8]
17:42:12 <fizzie> What is a shame is that good old "ethtool --identify" ("initiates adapter-specific action intended to enable an operator to easily identify the adapter by sight. Typically this involves blinking one or more LEDs on the specific ethernet port") isn't -- I think; I haven't really made a survey out of this -- implemented by many modernish drivers.
17:42:13 <alise> fizzie: I have no such line in my glxinfo.
17:42:37 <fizzie> Well, "lspci" pretty often works too.
17:42:45 <alise> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4
17:42:46 <AnMaster> OpenGL vendor string: Tungsten Graphics, Inc
17:42:46 <AnMaster> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4
17:42:47 <alise> Ah, there we go.
17:42:55 <alise> So /that's/ why the graphics are so good on this.
17:42:55 <AnMaster> wtf is tungsten graphics?
17:43:06 <alise> AnMaster: the Mesa developers, I think
17:43:07 <AnMaster> alise, hey you have same as mine
17:43:11 <AnMaster> it seems
17:43:17 <alise> Great card, innit.
17:43:21 <AnMaster> alise, not really
17:43:24 <alise> The Mesa 3D Graphics Library Developer(s) VMware (previously Tungsten Graphics)[1]
17:43:29 <AnMaster> alise, might have improved recently
17:43:32 <alise> AnMaster: Well, I like it.
17:43:35 <alise> Works great with Linux.
17:43:37 <alise> Absolutely great.
17:43:53 <fizzie> Tungsten Graphics apparently also maintain DRI.
17:43:56 <AnMaster> alise, well, it (used to?) render some games incorrectly. But I haven't tried them since jaunty
17:44:00 <AnMaster> so stuff might have changed
17:44:07 <alise> *sigh* I hate light pollution.
17:44:20 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Light_pollution_country_versus_city.png
17:44:41 <alise> What I wouldn't give to live in somewhere with as wonderful skies as the top image but with, you know, modern conveniences.
17:45:31 <AnMaster> alise, oh and, last I tried (again under jaunty) my laptop failed to drive my desktop monitor at full res, It supported lower and higher but not the same as native
17:45:50 <alise> What resolution?
17:45:58 <fizzie> Around here it looks like the lower pic, except more orange. (We have lots of low-pressure sodium-vapor streetlights.)
17:46:01 <AnMaster> alise, 1680x1050
17:47:00 <AnMaster> bbl
17:47:24 * alise downloads the HDCD rip.
17:47:26 <alise> Why not, I guess.
17:47:30 <alise> It's the only one with enough seeders.
17:48:03 <fizzie> Does the info say if it's done by actually decoding the HDCD signal, or just out of the HDCD CD?
17:48:19 <fizzie> (It sounds like software support for HDCD isn't exactly widespread, since, you know, patented.)
17:48:30 <alise> fizzie: Decoded with DSP.
17:48:35 <alise> By dbpoweramp.
17:48:42 <alise> Into a 24-bit container, with 4 empty bits.
17:48:45 <alise> Padding, that is.
17:49:01 <fizzie> Ah, well, that's good, then.
17:49:48 <alise> A lot of blab in the comments about how zomg-amazing the drums are but, uh, I have a feeling they're full of shit.
17:49:56 <alise> I'm not sure if I have a 24-bit soundcard. How could I check?
17:51:22 <alise> Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program.
17:51:26 <alise> Huh, it's still developed.
17:51:46 <alise> Sorry, "CDDA Paranoia". :P
17:52:00 <alise> [[Cdparanoia is a Compact Disc Digital Audio (CDDA) Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) tool, commonly known on the net as a 'ripper'.]]
17:52:19 <AnMaster> alise, your laptop does gbit ethernet?
17:52:19 <fizzie> Err... well, you could try "aplay -l" and then looking in the internet for the chipset name it gives. I'm not sure if there's any tool that directly would tell you what it managed to open or not.
17:52:43 <alise> AnMaster: Probably. "How can I check?"
17:52:43 <AnMaster> <alise> Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program. <-- erhm, me?
17:53:02 <alise> fizzie: Just "HDA Intel".
17:53:06 <AnMaster> alise, lspci | grep Ethernet
17:53:11 <alise> HD, so presumably 24-bit.
17:53:11 <AnMaster> it might have it in the name
17:53:15 <alise> HD Audio and what not.
17:53:17 <AnMaster> 04:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM5787M Gigabit Ethernet PCI Express (rev 02)
17:53:24 <alise> 07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Atheros AR8132 / L1c Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (rev c0)
17:53:25 <alise> Yes.
17:53:29 <AnMaster> yeah
17:53:49 <alise> "Hardware based on Intel HD Audio specifications is capable of delivering 192-kHz 32-bit quality for two channels, and 96-kHz 32-bit for up to eight channels." Although of course that says nothing about my hardware.
17:53:56 <alise> "However, as of 2008[update], most audio hardware manufacturers do not implement the full high-end specification, especially 32-bit sampling resolution."
17:54:08 <alise> IN MY DAY WE HAD AC'97.
17:54:10 <alise> And we *liked* it.
17:54:19 <fizzie> You could try playing out your fancy 24-bit file, and then checking "pactl list"'s horribly long output as to what is the "Sample Specification" for the output sink it's going to.
17:54:26 <AnMaster> alise, indeed. intel hda in my laptop too. Crappier sound than sb live 5.1 in desktop
17:54:33 <AnMaster> especially for low notes
17:54:38 <alise> Well, I have crappy laptop speakers. So I don't care.
17:54:44 <alise> Which makes this 24-bit thing doubly pointless, but, uh.
17:54:44 <AnMaster> and then I mean <70 Hz
17:54:47 <alise> Actually the speakers aren't crappy.
17:54:53 <alise> They're very good for laptop speakers; very good.
17:55:02 <fizzie> (Of course this assumes pulse would properly grok that the hardware supports 24-bit audio and not down-convert it.)
17:55:04 <AnMaster> oh the speakers, they are crappy in my laptop. I compared with moving headphones
17:55:08 <alise> Not so good on the bass, yes... but still very good on the bass, compared to the tinny crap you get.
17:55:11 <AnMaster> between laptop and desktop
17:55:19 <alise> Yeah, they're crappy, but all laptop speakers are. I'm relatively happy with these ones.
17:55:21 <alise> A bit too quiet though.
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17:55:54 <alise> Anyone remember when Plextor was THE drive to get for audio extraction?
17:56:01 <fizzie> Well, *my* laptop has a potentiometer-based hardware volume control knob, which makes a delightful low-fi noise when you twiddle it.
17:56:09 <alise> They just rebrand other people's drives now. :(
17:56:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha
17:56:22 <coppro> man, I look so epically bad
17:56:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: (It's that pentium-100-or-so I don't really use.)
17:56:41 <coppro> I look so epically bad
17:56:55 <coppro> oops, sorry for the double message
17:57:14 <alise> coppro: pics or it didn't happen
17:57:21 <coppro> alise: no thx
17:57:24 <alise> although i guess there is no "event" to "happen"
17:57:28 <AnMaster> ah
17:57:29 <alise> unless we're talking in the sense of "time still existing"
17:57:34 <coppro> suffice to say I'm dressed in a suit, which looks good
17:57:44 <coppro> and I have a pink tie that I can't get to look quite right
17:57:44 <fizzie> alise: This is a bit late, but yes, I do use cdparanoia, for some small values of "use". (We don't really have that many audio CDs.)
17:58:09 <alise> The only reason to buy audio CDs is to get a good rip.
17:58:16 <alise> coppro: It's pink. 'Nuff said.
17:58:23 <coppro> alise: precisely
17:58:35 <fizzie> Maybe you could dip it in ink?
17:58:49 <alise> What's that? Dip the pink
17:58:50 <alise> Tie in ink?
17:58:56 <alise> Wouldn't it sink?
17:59:20 <coppro> it's supposed to be pink
17:59:20 <fizzie> alise: That's my particular kink.
17:59:29 <coppro> I have a perfectly serviceable blue tie here too
17:59:34 <coppro> but that just wouldn't be the same
17:59:57 <alise> Okay, how do I strip images from a FLAC file?
18:00:00 <AnMaster> alise, this bug however causes mayhem for me currently: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/524281
18:00:09 <alise> fizzie: That's your kink? Well I do fink
18:00:10 <AnMaster> s/however//
18:00:16 <alise> That's more than a little rinky-dink-dink.
18:01:35 <alise> Maybe I'll just compile Amarok 1.
18:01:42 <alise> It has the feature of not sucking.
18:02:32 <alise> Hmm, wait. There is also DeaDBeeF and Aqualung to consider...
18:02:55 <alise> Or I could run Foobar in wine. :)
18:03:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Incidentally, the micro-HDMI connector is about the same size as micro-USB (2.8 x 6.4 mm, actually even a bit smaller), but it still has the full 19 pins of a regular HDMI connector. That's some seriously tiny pins.
18:03:49 <AnMaster> heh
18:03:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is wrong with the normal size?
18:04:00 <alise> Actually, Foobar in Wine isn't such a bad idea.
18:04:16 <AnMaster> I mean, putting a db on a phone seems about useless
18:04:23 <AnMaster> and on laptop standard size fits neatly
18:04:24 <alise> a db?
18:04:42 <AnMaster> err, dp*
18:04:48 <AnMaster> as in displayport
18:04:54 <alise> ... But if I'm using Foobar in Wine, why not just use DeaDBeeF?
18:04:57 <AnMaster> well same goes for hdmi
18:05:02 <AnMaster> fits neatly on a laptop too
18:05:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's very much not useless: you can watch your favourite movies on-the-go on the hotel TV. (Okay, so you'd probably also have that laptop, but still. And I've been traveling around with just the N900 lately.)
18:05:18 <alise> I hate hotels.
18:05:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah I'm not the target audience I see
18:05:59 <alise> Yeah, AnMaster doesn't watch entertainment.
18:06:30 <alise> Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change light bulb?
18:06:31 <alise> A: Yes.
18:06:31 <alise> Q: How many Mercury programmers does it take to change light bulb?
18:06:31 <alise> A: Four. One to change the light bulb and three to distract the nurses.
18:06:38 <AnMaster> I watch on youtube sometimes. I find the stuff on TV pretty much shit
18:06:54 <fizzie> I hate how they have a nice TV (with reasonable speakers) I could hook up the phone into in a hotel room, and then they completely screw any possibility of that by (a) not having any control buttons on the TV set, and (b) by providing only a "for dummies" variant of the TV remote, which doesn't make it possible to select any of the (four or so) external inputs of the TV.
18:06:54 <AnMaster> too many bad american sitcoms
18:07:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, your phone has hdmi?
18:07:52 <fizzie> No, but there's a (blurry) composite-video/RCA-audio thing.
18:08:00 <alise> fizzie: Carry around a universal remote. :P
18:09:06 <alise> WINE is so ugly.
18:09:16 <fizzie> alise: The phone is a universal remote (it has a IR diode), but those TV models are always some sort of weird "business purposes only" models, and I can never find any lirc remote-protocol-files for them. (Of course a real universal remote would probably have some working codes; I don't usually have enough patience to start downloading files for non-matching models.)
18:10:06 <fizzie> Also I hear real universal remotes have nifty "point it at the TV, then press a button when something happens" auto-detection thingies.
18:10:32 <alise> I bought one that required you to hold down a button for like a minute then press something.
18:10:36 <alise> It was a fucking bitch-ass shitter.
18:10:37 <alise> :|
18:11:58 <fizzie> What the what? I wasn't looking, and someone has added to this N900 QtIrreco tool a "download a remote from DB" choice.
18:12:37 <fizzie> Okay, the "DB" it uses seems to be pretty tiny. Phew. I was afraid something was going to non-suck.
18:13:18 <fizzie> There's surprisingly many air-conditioning systems listed; I didn't even know those have remote control in general.
18:14:46 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:15:29 -!- Fallensn0w has quit (Quit: g2g... follow me @fallensn0w at twitter).
18:15:36 <zzo38> O! Now I have corrected all problems with Icoruma->TeX program, except for overfull hboxes in tables.
18:15:37 -!- nooga has joined.
18:18:37 <fizzie> alise: Here's one way you could try for 24-bit sound: (with the volume way down) "aplay -L", then "aplay -D xxx -f S24_LE any.random.file", where xxx is a name from -L's list -- it'll try to play the file as raw audio data, and (at least here) say "Sample format non available; Available formats: [list]". (I'm just not completely sure I trust it, since it says that my hardware will play S16_LE and S32_LE, which sounds suspicious.)
18:19:36 <zzo38> My idea might be to make it calculate the minimum width of a paragraph box for only one word in a line, and the minimum width of all the words are on one line, and then insert a glue that stretches between those two widths?
18:19:41 <zzo38> Will this work?
18:20:45 <zzo38> Perhaps I will have to make it calculate the entire table before placing it on the page, similar to how I have it calculate the entire document before it ships it out
18:23:53 <alise> zzo38: You know, none of us have any idea what you're trying to do unless you tell us ...
18:24:20 <zzo38> alise: I thought I did tell you ...
18:24:28 <alise> Oh, you did.
18:24:31 <zzo38> What part of this do you not understand?
18:24:34 <alise> It got lost in fizzie's messages. Sorry.
18:25:01 <zzo38> fizzie only sent one message in between!
18:25:30 <oklopol> i already know my idea is awesome and works so i don't really care about you ppl's opinion
18:26:19 <alise> Ladies and Gentlemen,
18:26:21 <alise> I present to you
18:26:25 <alise> The world Linux UI design
18:26:25 <alise> EVER
18:26:27 <alise> http://imgur.com/Ru2kI.png
18:26:30 <alise> AnMaster: fizzie:
18:26:35 <oklopol> world ever, totally
18:26:35 <alise> Well, the UI is okay, with a different theme.
18:26:37 <alise> But the VISUALS.
18:26:53 <oklopol> anyone here an expert in 2-structures
18:26:58 <oklopol> (on)
18:27:11 <zzo38> What does "world Linux UI design" mean?
18:27:31 <oklopol> s///
18:27:38 <alise> worst UI
18:27:40 <alise> not world, oops
18:28:03 <oklopol> s//l/ s//s/
18:28:15 <oklopol> oh
18:28:17 <oklopol> t != d
18:28:22 <oklopol> so probably not a typo
18:28:30 <oklopol> not a finger typo that is
18:28:45 <zzo38> Whether it is the worst or not I don't know, but what I do know is I would make the UI entirely differently than that
18:28:48 <oklopol> i guess you don't have those anyway being a supertyper
18:29:03 <zzo38> As well as the feature set
18:31:53 <alise> oklopol: I do make tons of typos.
18:31:59 <alise> I just correct them in less than a second.
18:32:11 <oklopol> okay
18:32:14 <alise> I do have lots of thinkos, however, as I type thoughts as they are formed. I imagine most people type /after/ thinking ...
18:32:21 <oklopol> they say that's bad
18:32:44 <oklopol> i usually think while typing too, but i both type and think rather slow so
18:32:53 <oklopol> ...so what?
18:32:54 <oklopol> no idea
18:33:45 <Flonk> alise: most people think after typing :D
18:33:54 <alise> ha
18:34:44 <zzo38> I type fast, and often I do correct them in less than a second
18:35:11 <zzo38> But I type much faster when copying from something I have previously written on paper than when I am writing something new
18:35:47 <zzo38> Because when I write something new, I have to think of how I should write it down to make it meaningful and stuff like that
18:40:00 <alise> I write new thoughts quicker than copying.
18:41:15 <alise> fizzie: I'm playing the file; what command should I do, did you say?
18:43:16 <zzo38> But I am different because when I have new thoughts I have to think of how to write it. Writing new thoughts is not that much slower for me, though, than copying from a paper
18:43:22 <zzo38> But it is slightly slower
18:52:12 <alise> These speakers could do with more volume.
18:52:16 <alise> Maybe I'll just compress everything :P
18:53:29 <alise> Here's something that's Very Hard To Rip: Hidden tracks in the pregap of track 1 -- can be listened to by rewinding to "track 0" on most CD players.
18:53:35 <alise> But many, many CD-ROM drives simply cannot do it.
18:54:25 <fizzie> alise: Come to think of it, you could just use "mplayer -v" and check the messages. On my system, "mplayer -ao alsa -format s24le -v blah" says "[AO_ALSA] Format s24le is not supported by hardware, trying default" and builds a filter chain; s16le and s32le come out of the hardware. (I guess it's possible it fakes the 32-bit at some layer, but I don't think it should if you use a directly-hardwarey ALSA device.)
18:54:57 <alise> Ah well, it sounds alright; I wouldn't be able to tell on these speakers, anyway.
18:55:15 <alise> If I had a proper chair and some good speakers plugged in, I would be content. Yes, with the 13" screen; I've no problems with it.
18:55:31 <alise> In fact with excessive screen space I always get a little scared, what can I do with all this space that will do it justice and such. :P
18:55:31 <fizzie> Oh, right, the earlier command: pactl list | grep 'Sample Specification'
18:55:49 <alise> Just a bunch of lines with "16" in them.
18:55:49 <fizzie> If there's something more-than-16-bits going on there, it's probably playing with many bits.
18:55:50 <alise> Oh Well.
18:56:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_albums_with_tracks_hidden_in_the_pregap
18:56:15 <alise> List of albums that are almost impossible to rip properly
18:56:53 <Sgeo> Someone hilighted me
18:57:09 <alise> about sanity.
18:58:55 <Sgeo> Indeed
19:03:30 <alise> Pet peeve: The spectrum analyser bars you see in music players.
19:03:35 <alise> They're useless and distracting.
19:05:09 <Gregor> Pet peeve: Music players with GUIs.
19:05:13 <Gregor> They're useless and distracting.
19:05:28 <Sgeo> Surely those bars are there for fun? So surely they're disableable?
19:05:47 <Sgeo> Yeah, one does not imply the other :/
19:06:04 <alise> Fun, pah.
19:06:12 <alise> Stick to super cow powers.
19:06:23 <alise> Gregor: They're not useless if you're trying to navigate a ton of music...
19:06:27 <alise> ...so I suppose you use mpdc?
19:06:36 <alise> Or, lemme guess
19:06:41 <alise> You manually play the audio files
19:06:55 <Gregor> mplayer + bash = my music player
19:07:15 <Gregor> I navigate my music library with cd.
19:07:15 <alise> Thought so. I'd elaborate why th-- but that would be elaborating, finishing that sentence; so I won't.
19:07:16 <fizzie> alise: Apparently (source: interwebs) even if your hardware supports 24-bit audio, if you're playing through pulse, the PulseAudio daemon needs to be configured (via /etc/pulse/daemon.conf) to have a default sample format of something higher than s16le, otherwise everything will be clipped to that. (And after that everything you play will be internally converted to that many bits, adding to the resource drain. The same thing if you bump things up to 96 kHz or s
19:07:17 <fizzie> omething.)
19:07:35 <alise> fizzie: Playing through ALSA (though Pulse is running.)
19:07:42 <alise> Or does Pulse override ALSA?
19:08:04 <fizzie> The default configuration makes the default alsa device direct things to PulseAudio, I think.
19:08:29 <alise> Feh. Oh well.
19:08:47 <fizzie> But yes, with laptop speakers you probably shouldn't care.
19:08:52 <alise> I can't even understand why people like PulseAudio.
19:08:55 <alise> It has absolutely no ... features.
19:09:17 <alise> "PulseAudio is an integral part of all relevant modern Linux distributions"
19:09:23 <alise> By defining "relevant" to mean "ones that use PulseAudio".
19:09:36 <fizzie> alise: So that you can get that "ding" sound when you do something wrong on top of the music you have playing on the background. (Discounting for a moment ALSA's own software mixer.)
19:09:53 <alise> Discounting the thing that already does a thing, it can do a thing!
19:09:53 <fizzie> Oh, and the "bep-drweeedle" sounds when someone sends you an IM message.
19:10:08 <alise> Another pet peeve: UI sounds.
19:10:11 <Gregor> "bep-drweeedle"
19:10:12 <Gregor> Wow :P
19:10:16 <alise> Okay, the IM message notifications are quite useful, but.
19:10:24 <alise> It doesn't really sound like "bep-drweeedle". :P
19:10:34 <alise> More like "BAdum!".
19:10:56 <alise> When first adopted by the distributions PulseAudio developer Lennart Poettering described it as "the software that currently breaks your audio".[6] Poettering later claimed that "Ubuntu didn't exactly do a stellar job. They didn't do their homework" in adopting PulseAudio[7] for Ubuntu "Hardy Heron" (8.04), a problem which was then improved with subsequent Ubuntu releases.[8] However, Poettering is still not happy with Ubuntu's integration of PulseAudio.[9]
19:11:03 <alise> Wow, even the PulseAudio dev thinks Ubuntu's is especially crap.
19:11:46 <fizzie> Gregor: A friend of mine once did a Doom .wad file; for the door-opening and door-closing sounds, he substituted himself saying, in a laconic tone of voice, respectively, "clink-schloink" and "schlink-cloink". For some reason it was hilarious.
19:12:19 <alise> XD
19:12:42 <Sgeo> Used to like an online station-like thingy called PulsRadio...
19:13:10 <AnMaster> <alise> But the VISUALS. <-- visuals?
19:13:11 <alise> Puls'Radio - Non-Stop Dance And Trance Music - Web Radio Trance ...
19:13:11 <alise> - [ Translate this page ]
19:13:11 <alise> Webradio orientée musique électronique dancefloor.
19:13:11 <alise> www.pulsradio.com/ - Cached - Similar
19:13:17 <alise> AnMaster: see my link
19:13:20 <alise> AnMaster: the visual appearance of it
19:13:27 <alise> rather than the other, important part of the UI (functionality, which is fine)
19:13:32 <alise> but that default theme!
19:13:43 <AnMaster> alise, rewrite it in motif. Then there will be one worse
19:14:01 <alise> AnMaster: Did you CLICK the link?
19:14:11 <AnMaster> http://i.imgur.com/Ru2kI.png ? yes
19:14:22 <alise> Motif looks way better than that.
19:14:37 <AnMaster> alise, what about xine?
19:14:39 <fizzie> Oh, and for music player comparisons; my current one is xmms2 and the "nyxmms2" CLI. The project is sadly a bit dead.
19:14:50 <alise> AnMaster: Bad, but... not /that/ bad.
19:14:58 <alise> nyxmms2 or xmms2?
19:15:02 <alise> xmms2 isn't really that dead afaik.
19:15:13 <alise> Anyway, mpd and xmms2 have the flaws that I didn't write them.
19:15:17 <fizzie> Well, not *dead*, just sort of.. slowey.
19:15:21 <AnMaster> alise, what is so bad about this one? The bg pattern is quite awful yes
19:15:33 <AnMaster> and colour choices could be better
19:15:35 <alise> AnMaster: The colours, and the background.
19:15:37 <AnMaster> but worst? no?
19:15:54 <alise> Well, no, but it did make me puke when I clicked on "default" theme after it started in "plain" theme (which is very very reasonable, GTK style).
19:15:56 <AnMaster> alise, what are the three sliders
19:16:00 <AnMaster> one is probably position
19:16:04 <AnMaster> and one could be volume
19:16:08 <AnMaster> the third one?
19:16:08 <alise> Volume, balance (I think), position.
19:16:11 <alise> Balance because it's short and in the middle.
19:16:14 <alise> And next to volume.
19:16:24 <AnMaster> I dislike UIs where you have to hover the mouse to figure out what stuff is
19:16:24 <alise> As in L/R channel balance.
19:16:33 <fizzie> XMMS2's "AAC/MP4 (via faad2) and ASF/WMA (via ffmpeg) and libao output and whatnot" plugin developer's a friend, so I felt sort of obligated to try it out; it's passable.
19:16:36 <AnMaster> at least when there is no reason for it
19:17:00 <alise> Can ffmpeg actually poop crap out to an audio device? To use the correct terminology.
19:17:02 <alise> I guess not.
19:17:11 <alise> Hmm, why didn't I know of libao before?
19:17:44 <AnMaster> libao? some audio library, iirc... But then there are more audio libraries than there are GUI toolkits these days
19:17:56 <alise> Xiph.org's.
19:17:59 <alise> So you Know It's Good.
19:18:02 <alise> It's what mplayer uses by default too.
19:18:11 <alise> I think.
19:18:13 <AnMaster> theora sucks, and aren't they behind it?
19:18:21 <AnMaster> vorbis is good yes
19:18:21 <alise> Theora sucks, /but/ it was a Good Try.
19:18:25 <alise> Theora is /old/.
19:18:28 <AnMaster> ah
19:18:32 <AnMaster> older than vorbis?
19:18:32 <alise> When it was released it was /unbearable/.
19:18:36 <alise> Then they made it acceptable.
19:18:39 <alise> AnMaster: No. But old.
19:18:44 <alise> And it was dormant when they got ahold of it.
19:18:49 <AnMaster> alise, how old is old?
19:18:53 <alise> Then they made it... you know, bad, but not terrible.
19:18:54 * Sgeo wonders what alise thinks of VP8
19:18:57 <alise> AnMaster: I don't know. 2003 or something.
19:19:04 <fizzie> "libao" as in "audio output"; it's meant for cross-platform audio output; writes to files (in various formats) as well as platform-dependant audio-hardware things.
19:19:14 <AnMaster> heh.
19:19:14 <alise> Sgeo: It's still not as good as H.264, and never will be.
19:19:18 <AnMaster> alise, 2003 isn't old
19:19:29 <alise> AnMaster: It is when the codec it's based on
19:19:30 <alise> is
19:19:42 <alise> hmm how old is VP3
19:19:47 <AnMaster> sigh, why do I feel so old suddenly -_-
19:19:47 <alise> VP3.1 was introduced in May 2000 followed three months later by the VP3.2 release,[11][12] which is the basis for Theora.
19:19:54 <alise> It's old for /this stuff/.
19:20:04 <alise> Dammit, I don't have a warped perception of time, I just have a context-dependent one.
19:20:07 <alise> In 2000, video encoding SUCKED.
19:20:14 <AnMaster> well yes
19:20:22 <AnMaster> alise, remember .au?
19:20:24 <AnMaster> for audio
19:20:27 <alise> And it's hard to make a format from then not suck.
19:20:34 <alise> AnMaster: Don't remember, but have seen since many times.
19:20:37 <alise> (Since it's been obsolete.)
19:20:59 <AnMaster> ah, you are too young yeah
19:21:11 <AnMaster> alise, wait, what about qt in around 2001 or so?
19:21:15 <fizzie> alise: Hey, now... already in 1998 we had "DivX ;-) 3.11 Alpha".
19:21:21 <alise> QuickTime I dealt with when it was horrible, horrible on Windows.
19:21:23 <alise> (Still is, but, you know.)
19:21:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, with a smilie?
19:21:31 <alise> AnMaster: Yes.
19:21:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: The smilie is part of the name, yes.
19:21:38 <AnMaster> smiley*
19:21:51 <alise> DivX ;-) (not DivX) 3.11 Alpha and later 3.xx versions refers to a hacked version of the Microsoft MPEG-4 Version 3 video codec (not to be mistaken with MPEG-4 Part 3) from Windows Media Tools 4 codecs.[4][5] The video codec, which was actually not MPEG-4 compliant, was extracted around 1998 by French hacker Jerome Rota (also known as Gej) at Montpellier. The Microsoft codec originally required that the compressed output be put in an ASF file. It was alter
19:21:51 <alise> ed to allow other containers such as Audio Video Interleave (AVI).[6] Rota hacked the Microsoft codec because newer versions of the Windows Media Player wouldn't play his video portfolio and résumé that were encoded with it. Instead of re-encoding his portfolio, Rota and German hacker Max Morice decided to reverse engineer the codec, which "took about a week".[7]
19:22:02 <AnMaster> alise, I never dealt with qt on windows back then
19:22:08 <AnMaster> alise, did deal with it on mac
19:22:16 <alise> The "DivX" brand is distinct from "DIVX" (Digital Video Express), an unrelated attempt by the now defunct U.S. retailer Circuit City to develop a video rental system requiring special discs and players.[1] The winking emoticon in the early "DivX ;-)" codec name was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the failed DIVX system. The DivX company then adopted the name of the popular DivX ;-) codec (which was not created by them), dropped the smiley and released DivX
19:22:16 <alise> 4.0, which was actually the first DivX version. (Note that DivX ;-) and DivX are separate products and are created by different people; the former is not an older version of the latter). The DivX name is its trademark.[2][3] It is pronounced DIV-ex.
19:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, myst for mac uses qt for the embedded animations and such
19:22:27 <alise> fizzie: So note that DivX as you know it is NOT affiliated with, or based on, the old DivX ;-).
19:22:30 <alise> They just stole the name.
19:22:34 <AnMaster> and that is even older
19:22:56 <alise> I never had the attention span for Myst. Gimme Monkey Island.
19:23:06 <alise> So, ffmpeg + libao seems to be a way better solution than Xine and GStreamer.
19:23:09 <alise> Why doesn't everything use it?
19:23:37 <AnMaster> alise, I never played monkey island
19:23:42 <alise> I wonder if I am not getting old myself; my Emacs font is really big.
19:23:44 <fizzie> alise: Not based on, but I remember videos from the time of the smiley. They're all "sort-of MPEG-4 except not" anyway.
19:23:49 <AnMaster> oh and does it surprise you that I had the required attention span?
19:23:54 <alise> AnMaster: Yes.
19:23:58 <AnMaster> alise, to solve it without walkthroughs
19:24:00 <alise> Since you've said you have severe ADHD.
19:24:05 <AnMaster> alise, no I didn't.
19:24:11 <alise> I thought you did.
19:24:14 <AnMaster> I said I had *light* ADHD
19:24:28 <alise> Oh. I thought you said bad ADHD becoming light ADHD w/ Ritalin.
19:24:50 <AnMaster> no, also I said it in /msg under condition of keeping it there iirc.
19:24:56 <AnMaster> sigh
19:25:05 <alise> Sorry; I didn't remember.
19:25:13 <alise> Telling me things is usually a bad idea. :P
19:25:19 <AnMaster> right...
19:25:36 <AnMaster> anyway. myst was fun
19:25:39 <fizzie> Myst was nice; I got it as a birthday present when the Windows port was new, or at least new-ish.
19:25:49 <AnMaster> looked a lot better back then than it does when replayed today
19:26:10 <AnMaster> I mean, you didn't noticed the dithering very much on an old performa (built in) CRT
19:26:22 <AnMaster> it was how everything looked on displays after all
19:26:36 <AnMaster> and CRT doesn't give a crystal clear picture like TFTs do
19:26:46 <AnMaster> CRTs don't*
19:27:46 <fizzie> I think I saw "Myst: Masterpiece Edition" somewhere in a bin; I'm a bit sorry that I didn't get it, but since I already had the original... (it has the graphics re-rendered as 24-bit bitmaps, as opposed to the 256-color palette+dithering ones; and also some works-better-in-newer-Windowses stuff).
19:28:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I run it in sheepshaver nowdays
19:28:28 <fizzie> Wait, what? I actually *did* buy it? At least there's one of those tall-DVD-case-thingies in the shelf with "MYST: masterpiece edition" printed on it.
19:28:36 <AnMaster> haha
19:28:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, never played it?
19:28:42 <alise> BELIAL IS BACK
19:28:50 <alise> Still needs a better name.
19:28:56 <fizzie> "Every graphic element has been upgraded to brilliant 24-bit color".
19:29:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: I... don't remember. I remember re-playing Myst not long ago, but I thought it was the old one, not this new one.
19:29:19 <AnMaster> alise, um. this sounds familiar. but no I can't locate wtf belial is
19:29:38 <alise> AnMaster: my vapourware music daemon
19:29:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, time to replay yet again?
19:29:47 <alise> Vapourware no more! Not another day I have to sleep at the unit: so I have time!
19:29:50 <zzo38> What I should do is combine features of ImageMagick and SoX in one program called "Image Exchange" and -density sets the sample rate. And to play a audio file backwards and with echo you can type in: imx file1.wav -flop +echo play:
19:29:52 <fizzie> Also: "Larger and higher quality movies and animations"; after all, the book-entering animation clips in original Myst were something like 160x120 pixels.
19:30:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw for that image, if you can't correct white balance, it might be worth a try to just do vignetting
19:30:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, and perhaps try without exposure correction. It could be what is messing up the sky. Well I don't know how it is messed up so hard to tell..
19:30:54 <fizzie> And: "Proprietary DigitalGuide™ help system assists players of every skill level"
19:31:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, whaat?
19:31:33 <fizzie> There's some sort of built-in walkthrough, I guess.
19:31:34 <AnMaster> if you need a walkthrough... use google to find something at ign or whatever
19:31:45 <AnMaster> built in ones is just... cheating
19:32:01 <alise> XDX
19:32:02 <alise> *XD
19:32:06 <alise> I remember UHS. Anyone remember UHS?
19:32:09 <AnMaster> no?
19:32:13 <alise> Universal Hint System.
19:32:17 <AnMaster> what was that
19:32:18 <fizzie> alise: I wrote a perl script to convert UHS files to a XML format.
19:32:21 <alise> You'd ask it a question about a game by clicking on it, and it'd give you a vague hint.
19:32:24 <alise> Click again, more specific.
19:32:30 <alise> After -- I think on the fifth hint -- it told you outright.
19:32:42 <alise> The program plus a few hint files for games could fit on one floppy.
19:32:43 <AnMaster> alise, was this in the game or a separate product?
19:32:47 <alise> Separate product.
19:32:50 <AnMaster> ah
19:32:58 <alise> Seems it still exists.
19:33:00 <alise> http://www.uhs-hints.com/
19:33:14 <AnMaster> but vague hint for an entire game... that doesn't work for most games
19:33:18 <alise> No.
19:33:21 <alise> For one specific puzzle.
19:33:23 <alise> Or whatever.
19:33:25 <AnMaster> hm
19:33:36 <alise> Inside the game it would have a bunch of little problems you might encounter, then you could just click to get more and more specific hints.
19:33:45 <alise> Probably the most... tasteful hint system existing, with the discretion and all.
19:34:08 <fizzie> Hm, there's uhs2xml.pl, xml2html.pl and showxml.pl here.
19:34:08 <AnMaster> I can think of lots of games where this fails. works mostly for RPGs, adventure and similar.
19:34:19 <AnMaster> I guess that is where it is most needed
19:34:50 <zzo38> In addition to audio, imx also needs a block-JPEG to perform lossless transformations on JPEG file by keeping the blocks compressed
19:35:10 <zzo38> alise: I have also written a hint system called IFHINT
19:35:30 <alise> AnMaster: Where would it fail?
19:35:31 <zzo38> (I do not know how it compares with UHS)
19:35:38 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist.
19:35:55 <AnMaster> alise, well open ended strategy games
19:36:00 <AnMaster> pretty useless for that I guess
19:36:06 <alise> Yeah.
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19:36:17 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist.
19:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, this long.
19:36:32 <alise> "I have completed the Seven Trials, killed Morgggot, and retrieved the chicken. What do I do now?"
19:36:33 <fizzie> Writing UHS files needs some care in the question-titling business; if they're too explicit, you can deduce too much; if too vague, they'll be difficult to find.
19:36:38 <alise> fizzie: Yes.
19:36:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yay!
19:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Now, what were the thoughts?
19:37:03 <alise> See /msg.
19:37:18 <AnMaster> alise, I was thinking about the kind of game where you could side with either side of a conflict for completely different gameplay, and possibly change in the middle
19:37:42 <AnMaster> or even do the "your own side, fight both" style.
19:37:53 <alise> AnMaster: There'd be a (One Side) and (Other Side) superheading, then.
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19:38:38 <fizzie> Right; there's an arbitrary tree of questions/subquestions, and then each hint has an arbitrary list of answers, revealed one by one.
19:39:09 <AnMaster> tree? needs to be arbitrary graph for the kind of game I'm thinking about
19:39:34 <fizzie> No, it doesn't: you don't have to traverse the tree in order.
19:39:44 <fizzie> It just needs to be browseable so that you find what you're looking for.
19:39:44 <AnMaster> hm
19:40:03 <fizzie> There's a human reading it, after all.
19:40:19 <Gregor> Conifer? I 'ardly knew 'er!
19:40:58 <AnMaster> the kind of game I'm thinking about is _exceedingly_ rare, but exists. Most examples that come to mind are user created modules or such to open ended RPG game engines. Major companies seems to hate truly open ended RPGs. Probably because it is a lot more work.
19:41:43 <fizzie> That being said, the format probably does work best for regular linear-ish (or at least fixed-content do-it-in-the-order-you-like) adventure games.
19:41:44 <alise> And because players end up feeling lost.
19:42:37 <Gregor> Arguably, almost all MMORPGs fit that, they're just also "MMO"
19:43:04 <AnMaster> alise, I actually love the freedom of this kind of open ended gameplay. Especially if the game has D&D style alignment. If you play chaotic neutral in a rail roaded RPG you never really get the chance for being truly CN.
19:43:29 <AnMaster> less of a problem for lawful of course.
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19:43:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Incidentally, Myst's DS port added a whole new age (Rime) to the plot. (I don't remember how it tied in to the Myst plot; ISTR it wasn't just "one more red/blue page to find" thing.)
19:44:03 <AnMaster> hm
19:44:07 <AnMaster> DS port
19:44:12 <AnMaster> interesting
19:44:14 <fizzie> Nintendo DS, that is.
19:44:21 <AnMaster> yes I gathered that
19:44:39 <fizzie> In other ways it was a pretty sucky port; bugs and such.
19:44:52 <fizzie> But you could write (with the stylus) in a notebook, that was a nice touch.
19:44:52 <AnMaster> ah
19:44:59 <fizzie> (Unfortunately the notebook only had one page.)
19:45:04 <AnMaster> gah
19:45:20 <fizzie> It's a pretty resource-limited system, and bitmaps take a lot of space.
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19:45:55 <fizzie> From a review: "The Nintendo DS has the game at its worst: a poorly compressed, sometimes glitchy, game that relies entirely on visuals that are too hard to see for progression."
19:46:03 <fizzie> (The reviewer is a Myst-hater, though.)
19:46:22 <AnMaster> how can anyone hate myst!?
19:46:41 <fizzie> Oh, lots of people hate it.
19:46:54 <AnMaster> on what grounds?
19:47:05 <alise> It's very, very dull.
19:47:09 <AnMaster> eh
19:47:10 <alise> And the puzzles are on the ... inexplicable side.
19:47:12 <AnMaster> I disagree
19:47:13 <alise> When there /are/ any puzzles.
19:47:24 <AnMaster> there are puzzles everywhere in myst!
19:47:30 <alise> When you're not walking.
19:47:31 <alise> Endlessly.
19:47:47 <fizzie> People do find it boring, yes.
19:48:33 <AnMaster> well, I hate the FPS genre due to being too fast... so I guess there is a pattern here...
19:48:49 <AnMaster> s/due to/for/
19:48:56 <fizzie> And there's the "zip mode" (at least in the Windows port) to ease a bit on the clickery needed in walking, if you're already been somewhere and want to revisit it.
19:49:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's in the mac one too
19:49:16 <AnMaster> and yes that is quite nice
19:50:22 <AnMaster> myst on mac at least was developed in hypercard I think...
19:50:30 <alise> Yes.
19:50:39 <AnMaster> not sure if that applies to the windows port
19:52:29 <fizzie> One problem in the DS port is that since there's no cursor, poking at random points might activate interactive things, but they might as well cause you to move somewhere; you'd know from the cursor shape.
19:53:03 <AnMaster> indeed
19:53:04 <fizzie> And since they shrunk everything to the DS's 256x192 pixel resolution, some of the things you need to poke with a stick are pretty tiny.
19:53:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't it have two screens?
19:53:30 <AnMaster> or is that some other one?
19:53:38 <fizzie> Only one of them is a touchscreen.
19:53:42 <AnMaster> hm
19:54:03 <alise> It's not a touchscreen, really.
19:54:06 <alise> More a stylusscreen.
19:54:13 <fizzie> Okay, but pokeable anyway.
19:54:14 <alise> *styluscreen
19:54:15 <fizzie> Often there's main graphics in the upper screen, and then some sort of UI in the bottom.
19:54:27 <AnMaster> pokeable screen, awesome name
19:54:42 <fizzie> "Pokescreen." Or is that too pokemon? (Or too porn?)
19:54:54 <AnMaster> I don't get how it could be porn...
19:54:56 <AnMaster> but meh
19:55:06 <AnMaster> but yeah too pokemon definitely
19:55:12 <fizzie> It's a Finnish colloquialism for porn; it probably doesn't translate.
19:55:26 <alise> What, pokes? Or pokescreen?
19:55:32 <AnMaster> or pokemon?
19:55:43 <fizzie> Just "poke". Not too common, but recognizable anyway.
19:57:04 <fizzie> The FF3 port, IIRC, puts the 3D view on top, and a map on the styluscreen; you can poke at the corners of the screen to move in that direction. The equip/item/etc. menu opens over the map, as do the battle menus (and other battle stats).
19:57:41 <AnMaster> FF3 being?
19:57:46 <fizzie> Final Fantasy 3.
19:57:49 <AnMaster> ah
19:58:22 <fizzie> Of Myst DS: "Even if you wanted to simply enjoy Myst's scenery, the grainy compression has shattered the beauty of the artistic design. What you see is a sad, freckled shell of the original game. The audio from the original game fares only slightly better: Hissing, scratching, and popping have turned CD-quality sound effects, dialogue, and gorgeous, ethereal music into a ham-radio affair."
19:58:45 <AnMaster> ouch
19:59:04 <alise> The DS' audio is awful.
19:59:10 <alise> *DS's
19:59:32 <AnMaster> myst is best enjoyed with a peforma cd drive for the seeking noise. It had a very peculiar seeking noise. Not heard on modern computers
19:59:44 <AnMaster> but I very strongly associates myst with that sound
19:59:45 <fizzie> Here's a screenshot: http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2008/133/939943_20080513_screen003.jpg -- that's the full-size image, 256 pixels wide; just zoom it in the browser to approximate how you'd probably hold the DS closer than the monitor.
20:00:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, a map? that's ruining point of the whole thing
20:00:17 <AnMaster> and those icons? wtf
20:00:22 <fizzie> It's a static map, though; it doesn't tell you where you are.
20:00:27 <AnMaster> still
20:00:33 <alise> AnMaster: Inventory, presumably. Maybe?
20:00:44 <fizzie> You can only carry one thing in Myst. :p
20:00:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, on that specific world part of the challenge was figuring out the other islands played any sort of part in the story
20:00:54 <fizzie> The third one is the scribble-notepad.
20:01:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: Nhm, well, I guess. They were pretty visible from the screens, though.
20:01:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And the map doesn't show how you've rotated the bridge, so it doesn't help in that.
20:01:36 <AnMaster> yes, but there is scenery which is just scenery in many places
20:01:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah
20:01:56 <AnMaster> don't spoil it for alise !
20:02:32 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Myst_opening.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Realmyst_screen.png
20:02:39 <AnMaster> ugh at the latter. Sure some stuff is better
20:02:54 <AnMaster> but why couldn't they keep the parts of better detail in the original
20:02:56 <fizzie> The first one is a zoom thing, with which you can zoom what's shown in the bottom screen for easier viewing, but it just stretches the bitmap, there's no higher-resolution version stored anywhere.
20:02:59 <alise> So does Myst run in ScummVM or anything?
20:03:15 <AnMaster> look at the part of the boat, some rigging or something sticking out
20:03:22 <fizzie> It runs in Wine.
20:03:24 <AnMaster> where the bumps are real bumps in the original
20:03:25 <alise> Julian Assange should get out of the country, quickly.
20:03:28 <alise> fizzie: Blergh.
20:03:29 <AnMaster> and in the new one... just texture
20:03:38 <AnMaster> alise, which country and why?
20:03:41 <olsner> myst was probably made in shockwave or something like that
20:03:49 <AnMaster> olsner, hypercard on mac
20:03:52 <AnMaster> well that was the original
20:03:59 <AnMaster> no idea what they used for PC
20:04:30 <alise> AnMaster: The Pentagon are out to get him.
20:04:41 <AnMaster> isn't he in hiding already?
20:04:46 <AnMaster> but yeah, should go to iceland
20:05:16 <alise> http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leakhttp://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak -- ok, ok, don't trust everything you read online, but i don't think The Daily Beast is known to be terribly inaccurate
20:05:30 <AnMaster> alise, 404
20:05:39 <alise> Uh, repeated link.
20:05:39 <alise> http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak
20:05:48 <AnMaster> alise, ah, I thought it was a bit on the long side
20:05:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: RealMyst had to run in real-time on whatever hardware there was in 2000, so they probably didn't have the polygons to spare to get all the details from the originals -- which were offline-rendered -- in.
20:05:49 <alise> [[“We’d like to know where he is; we’d like his cooperation in this,” one U.S. official said of Assange.]]
20:05:58 <alise> Of course when he gets to court he's fucked. No chance of a nice ruling there.
20:06:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah true
20:06:53 <AnMaster> I don't think killing off Assange would stop any such leak. They most likely have the files spread and back up people to publish it
20:07:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: "While the new interactivity of the game was praised, realMyst ran extremely slowly on most computers of the time." Heh, maybe they also didn't try very hard.
20:07:28 <alise> realMyst: Interactive 3D Edition was a remake of Myst released in November 2000 for Windows PCs, and in January 2002 for Mac. Unlike Myst and the Masterpiece Edition, realMyst featured free-roaming, real-time 3D graphics instead of pre-rendered stills.[50] Weather effects like thunderstorms, sunsets, and sunrises were added to the Ages, and minor additions were made to keep the game in sync with the story of the Myst novels and sequels. The game also adde
20:07:28 <alise> d a new Age called Rime, which is featured in an extended ending.
20:07:33 <alise> So realMyst added Rime, not the DS version.
20:07:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm. That grassy area on the side is nicer in realmyst IMO
20:07:45 <AnMaster> but that is all
20:07:46 <fizzie> Yes, it's the same Rime.
20:08:14 <fizzie> I'd like to know how the iPhone version is.
20:08:32 * alise downloads insurance.aes256, 1.4 GB.
20:08:35 <fizzie> "Williams, Bryn (2009-05-04). "Massive Myst Clogs Up iPhone". GameSpy. http://www.gamespy.com/articles/979/979141p1.html. Retrieved 2009-05-04." Sounds good.
20:09:05 <fizzie> A 700+-megabyte download is apparently considered "big" for an iPhone app.
20:09:12 <alise> fizzie: Of course it is XD
20:09:17 <alise> You download that over WiFi.
20:09:33 <fizzie> You also need 1.5 gigs free during the installation; a copy is involved. Heh-eh.
20:09:53 <AnMaster> alise, "Assange appeared via Skype from Australia instead, saying lawyers recommended he not return to the United States.", if that is true I doubt he is in US
20:10:21 <fizzie> There's "quick access to hint guide" in the iMyst (no, they're not calling it that) too.
20:11:16 <AnMaster> alise, also that link is old
20:11:25 <fizzie> (And it seems they've shrunk it down, the current iOS 4 compatible version is only 533 MB. I might even invest the $5 if I had an iDevice.)
20:11:27 <AnMaster> from what I can tell it is before the afghan war diary stuff
20:12:20 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it can only inflame.
20:12:39 <alise> Anyway, I presume this insurance file is all the /rest/ of the documents the White House have begged him not to release about this stuff, encrypted with AES-256.
20:12:53 <alise> Presumably, he will post the key if he feels threatened by the govt.
20:13:01 <alise> Length: 309809152 (295M) [application/octet-stream]
20:13:05 <alise> You said >1GB, Wikileaks.
20:13:07 <alise> You LIED.
20:13:46 <AnMaster> alise, what? where?
20:14:10 <alise> http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010
20:14:15 <alise> The silently added insurance.aes256.
20:14:21 <AnMaster> hm
20:14:36 <AnMaster> god, wikileaks is slow atm
20:15:14 <alise> The SHA-1 is wrong.
20:15:16 <alise> Why is it truncated.
20:15:18 <alise> *truncated...
20:15:32 <AnMaster> how strange
20:15:41 <alise> Fucking wget.
20:15:43 <alise> Firefox is doing it alright.
20:15:55 <AnMaster> um
20:16:27 <AnMaster> alise, considering how slow the download page was to load, I very much suspect that overloaded server might be the cause.
20:17:36 <Sgeo> DAMMIT
20:17:49 <AnMaster> Sgeo, ???
20:18:10 <AnMaster> that deserves some explanation
20:18:13 <Sgeo> I have the code that starts the thing in a try, some stuff in a catch, and the whole thing in a while(true)
20:18:18 <Sgeo> I now want to kill it
20:18:25 <Sgeo> So I could run it on a different host
20:18:29 <AnMaster> kill -9 pid-goes-here
20:18:43 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it's not running on a computer I have access to
20:18:50 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Memling_Vanity_and_Salvation.jpg (NSFW, WTF)
20:19:15 <Sgeo> The self-restarts in a sense on exceptions aren't perfect, due to poor code design
20:19:16 <AnMaster> alise, seen that before. Hisotorical context.
20:19:19 <AnMaster> forgot details
20:19:24 <AnMaster> check image page for "used in"
20:19:27 <alise> "This triptych contrasts earthly beauty and luxury with the prospect of death and hell."
20:19:29 <AnMaster> that should help
20:19:30 <alise> It's still pretty WTF.
20:19:57 <alise> Meanwhile, someone has snipped out just the bit with nakedness: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Hans_Memling_Vanit%C3%A9_ca_1490.jpg XD
20:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, google news search on wikileaks insurance aes256: "all 477 news articles »"
20:22:28 <AnMaster> that's quite a bit of coverage
20:22:33 <AnMaster> assuming all are related
20:22:36 <alise> probably not
20:22:40 <alise> mostly just wikileaks, I bet
20:22:58 <AnMaster> probably
20:24:31 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why Wikileaks didn't manually look for informant's names and only release documents known for certain not to contain them?
20:25:47 <alise> Did they release any with informant's names?
20:26:06 <AnMaster> alise, you know, no one could tell if it was just random data to scare with
20:26:10 <AnMaster> that file I mean
20:26:36 <AnMaster> alise, yes iirc it turned out they did so
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20:58:22 <alise> AnMaster: what kernel do i select in ubuntu 7.04 install?
20:58:28 <alise> linux-generic froze the install last time i tried
20:58:32 <alise> do I choose the specific name?
20:58:37 <alise> sorry, *linux-kernel I think. maybe not
21:00:42 <AnMaster> alise, hm...
21:00:46 <AnMaster> alise, which file system?
21:01:00 <alise> ????
21:01:01 <AnMaster> alise, it froze for me for about 20 minutes with jfs and about 10 with ext3
21:01:04 <zzo38> What are commands in TeX to calculate the minimum width of a paragraph (with no hyphenation)?
21:01:10 <alise> AnMaster: O_O what?!
21:01:12 <alise> why would it freeze that much
21:01:18 <AnMaster> alise, I have no idea
21:01:24 <alise> Any way to rectify it?
21:01:29 <AnMaster> alise, logs showed the vm was trying to catch up time drift
21:01:41 <alise> Also, ext3 is what it does when you just let it go with the whole disk, right?
21:01:43 <AnMaster> and failed
21:01:43 <alise> Yeah, it is.
21:01:46 <alise> AnMaster: Huh. So it eventually resolved?
21:01:59 <AnMaster> alise, well with ext3 it did. It did take an awful lot of time though
21:02:04 <AnMaster> with jfs I gave up after 20 minutes
21:02:27 <AnMaster> alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not
21:02:35 <AnMaster> anyway linux-generic just maps to one of the other ones
21:02:38 <AnMaster> last version or such
21:02:50 <zzo38> Do you know about commands in TeX?
21:03:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, clarify that question please What exactly do you mean
21:03:52 <AnMaster> or is "commands" some package?
21:04:00 <alise> AnMaster: pure TeX.
21:04:12 <AnMaster> hm no idea. I use LaTeX
21:04:18 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not <-- is this likely to speed it up?
21:04:30 <oklopol> he has no idea
21:04:32 <AnMaster> alise, no clue.
21:04:41 <oklopol> *clue
21:04:42 <AnMaster> alise, it might
21:04:59 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, theoretically it should perhaps, no need to update atime field
21:05:03 <AnMaster> could hardly slow it down
21:05:09 <AnMaster> unless there was some bug
21:05:12 <alise> Yeah, but I mean, the huge lag.
21:05:15 <alise> Could that be related?
21:05:21 <alise> I guess not.
21:05:26 <zzo38> AnMaster: I mean Plain TeX. I want to calculate the minimum possible width of a box that a paragraph will fit into with no hyphenation or overfull boxes.
21:05:29 <alise> Because it's time drift instead.
21:05:29 <AnMaster> alise, and since iirc noatime is not default and you hit that lag too. That is assuming you did defaults
21:05:38 <alise> No?
21:05:47 <zzo38> And no overlapping text.
21:05:47 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not sure if the time drift is actually causing the slow down or just side effect
21:06:15 <AnMaster> alise, it might very well be caused by the VM hogging it's CPU to 100% in debconf during that time
21:06:21 <AnMaster> alise, it turns out top installed before kernel
21:06:29 <AnMaster> so I could chroot into the install and run top
21:06:31 <AnMaster> :D
21:06:57 <AnMaster> alise, just go to alt-f2, oh and it reports current status on alt-f4 or such
21:07:00 <alise> Oh, so it's responsive?
21:07:03 <AnMaster> as in, apt-get output
21:07:05 <alise> Which kernel did you pick?
21:07:13 <AnMaster> alise, default one
21:07:26 <AnMaster> alise, but it doesn't matter really since they are just generic aliases of each other
21:07:28 <zzo38> Here is the command to use if you want to test if a GNU/Linux system is running too slow: time seq 1 1000000
21:07:35 <AnMaster> alise, blame expert install for showing the option at all probably
21:07:42 <alise> zzo38: Why?
21:07:48 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah.
21:08:01 <AnMaster> alise, need it for the shadow option however
21:08:01 <alise> zzo38: For one, that's IO-bound. Heavily. You want >/dev/null.
21:08:05 <alise> For two, there are many implementations of seq.
21:08:08 <alise> For three, why?!
21:08:12 <AnMaster> alise, modifying that after the fact turned out to be quite a mess.
21:08:37 <zzo38> alise: That is meaning in case you want to count multiple things at once including I/O and things.
21:08:43 <AnMaster> enough that I did a reinstall
21:09:08 <alise> AnMaster: Incidentally, using QEMU to emulate an x86-64 machine is a bitch.
21:09:19 <AnMaster> oh?
21:09:24 <alise> AnMaster: This is because although I have a 64-bit processor, it does not support virtualisation, so VirtualBox can't do 64-bit on it.
21:09:25 <alise> Thus slowness.
21:09:30 <alise> Well, it isn't /that/ slow
21:09:32 <alise> *slow.
21:09:35 <alise> But still, you know, could be a bit faster.
21:09:42 <Phantom_Hoover> My processor does that too...
21:09:57 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, as far as I can tell it stalls (or seems to?) in generating the initrd or possibly depmod. This is based on output on alt-f4
21:10:30 <AnMaster> alise, I don't know if you drink coffee, but this is the kind of place where guides would suggest you go make a cup of it to pass the time :P
21:10:40 <alise> Usually it suggests tea.
21:10:43 <alise> Well, in the good manuals.
21:10:52 <zzo38> The command "time seq 1 1000000" doesn't test everything and also won't do only one thing for testing, but it is good as a simple way to test multiple things at once
21:10:54 <AnMaster> hm that "trope" of manuals seems mostly gone nowdays
21:11:07 <AnMaster> alise, I can't remember it being tea in any case I read about
21:11:09 <alise> There doesn't seem to be a coffee machine in the kitchen and I'm not about to drink instant coffee, so I don't drink coffee much. That's probably a good thing.
21:11:18 <AnMaster> alise, indeed
21:11:20 <alise> AnMaster: I've never seen coffee. Maybe I read better manuals than you. :P
21:11:28 <AnMaster> I don't drink coffee
21:11:46 <AnMaster> alise, or British manuals rather than American ones. That could be a significant factor
21:11:57 <alise> I don't use much British software, as far as I know.
21:12:12 <AnMaster> Swedish ones would probably suggest coffee. It is by far more common than tea here
21:12:20 <alise> Or maybe localised manuals. Who knows. I don't think they'd localise that; only open-sourcey and other thrifty projects have it, and those don't tend to get localised across dialects of English.
21:12:25 <alise> Ah, well, yes, I'm talking English ere.
21:12:42 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm not sure which language I read it in
21:12:48 <AnMaster> probably both English and Swedish
21:13:15 <AnMaster> human memory is not perfect
21:14:45 <AnMaster> alise, wait, that 10 minutes was for virtualbox with hardware virt
21:14:56 <AnMaster> qemu is in my experience slower...
21:15:10 <AnMaster> how much varies
21:15:13 <AnMaster> and that was with kvm
21:15:25 <AnMaster> without kvm... you might have to wait a bit more than 10 minutes
21:15:33 <AnMaster> alise, hopefully not though
21:16:00 <alise> Does KVM work if your processor doesn't do that virtualisin' thang?
21:16:05 <AnMaster> alise, no
21:16:08 <AnMaster> or
21:16:10 <AnMaster> not afaik
21:16:11 <alise> Then no luckz.
21:16:23 <AnMaster> alise, indeed. Also how fast cpu?
21:16:32 <AnMaster> what was that
21:16:36 <AnMaster> strange sound
21:16:53 <alise> 1.33 GHz or something; ultra low voltage. But don't be fooled; it runs a ton of Firefox and other windows very snappily and quickly on bloated old Ubuntu.
21:16:56 <AnMaster> like... lots of small muffled explosions after each other
21:17:00 <alise> So it's no slowpoke. It /is/ Core 2 Duo, after all.
21:17:15 <AnMaster> like 5-10 / second, went on for maybe 4 or 5 seconds
21:17:16 <AnMaster> wtf
21:17:19 <AnMaster> from outside
21:17:24 <alise> o_O
21:17:34 <AnMaster> alise, my cpu is Core 2 Duo @ 2.26 GHz btw
21:18:09 <AnMaster> alise, looking at top and virtualbox's harddrive icon it seemed that whatever thing it stalled at was CPU bound, not IO bound
21:18:28 <alise> Oh well. I can wait for indefinite amounts of time as long as I know it's not frozen.
21:18:36 <alise> It froze at 8x% -- is this your experience too?
21:18:43 <AnMaster> 8x%?
21:18:51 <AnMaster> it was when installing kernel I know
21:19:13 <AnMaster> but yes it froze a short while at 8x% I think, and then the 10 minute freeze at 92% or such
21:19:19 <AnMaster> the first one was like about a minute or so
21:19:22 <alise> Ah. It froze for a few minutes at 8x% for me.
21:19:25 <alise> Hmm.
21:19:27 <alise> Oh well.
21:19:37 <AnMaster> alise, slower cpu, no hw virt. What can you expect?
21:19:40 <zzo38> How can you calculate the shortest width of hbox that a paragraph will fit into with no overfills, hyphenation, or overlapped text?
21:19:46 <AnMaster> alise, don't you have one with hw virt?
21:20:03 <AnMaster> I thought you did
21:20:33 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I'm really curious as to what debconf was doing, since it was it that was using 99% CPU during the second stall at least
21:20:33 <alise> Yes; an AMD box and an iMac.
21:20:38 <alise> But, you know, I like this little box. It's dinky!
21:20:43 <alise> That's the actual hostname.
21:20:50 <AnMaster> alise, what was the screen res?
21:21:02 <alise> 1366x768; which, on a 13" screen, gives it a lovely dpi.
21:21:08 <alise> Enough to have a few windows on the same screen.
21:21:42 <AnMaster> alise, opengenera uses a 800x600 window (do not resize, I haven't tried, but the snap4 README said that if you do that, BAD things will happen). And a bitmapped font that is kind of hard to read on my thinkpad at times.
21:22:00 <AnMaster> alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean
21:22:14 <alise> AnMaster: Indeed, the screen is so high-quality and high-dpi that /slight-hinted RGB subpixel rendering by (patent-patched) freetype/ actually *has no noticeable subpixels*.
21:22:20 <alise> Literally. Even if you lean your head in and strain to see.
21:22:29 <alise> It looks even better than OS X's subpixel rendering.
21:22:32 <AnMaster> alise, yeah yeah, but opengenera can only use bitmapped fonts
21:22:38 <AnMaster> so those will do you no good here
21:22:38 <alise> The actual font rendering isn't up to snuff, of course, but the subpixel...
21:22:41 <alise> AnMaster: 800x600 is fine.
21:22:46 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean
21:22:46 <alise> QEMU
21:22:49 <alise> and why would I need to?
21:22:50 <AnMaster> oh right
21:22:51 <alise> no more sleepin'
21:23:01 <alise> VirtualBox can save state too IIRC.
21:23:02 <AnMaster> alise, you got discharged?
21:23:04 <AnMaster> err
21:23:08 <AnMaster> qemu you mean
21:23:15 <alise> No, I meant VirtualBox.
21:23:16 <alise> Not discharged.
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21:23:18 <alise> Just daypatient.
21:23:25 <AnMaster> alise, oh wait
21:23:32 <AnMaster> I write vmware, and meant virtualbox
21:23:35 <AnMaster> how funny
21:23:36 <AnMaster> -_-
21:23:41 <AnMaster> but yes vmware can too
21:23:56 <AnMaster> alise, can qemu though?
21:24:27 <AnMaster> alise, if you show up sleep deprived though... things might start looking bad for you again
21:24:31 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
21:24:42 <alise> I'm good at hiding it.
21:24:47 <alise> Besides, I look tired on Mondays anyway.
21:24:58 <alise> AnMaster: But no, I'm on the "fast track" to being discharged in September.
21:25:01 <alise> Not to peace of course ...
21:25:02 <AnMaster> okay. I know I personally fail at hiding lack of sleep
21:25:04 <alise> Hello ais523!
21:25:09 <ais523> hi alise
21:25:14 <AnMaster> sure I can stay awake, unless at home... but even so
21:25:18 <AnMaster> not well hidden
21:25:34 <AnMaster> and yes hi ais523
21:25:51 <AnMaster> ais523, did you reach any clarity in that esr/ick/knuth issue?
21:25:54 <alise> Well, I can survive on five hours of sleep and after a bit of yawning I'm okay after noon.
21:25:59 <alise> Then by evening I crash.
21:26:00 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still happening
21:26:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't heard anything except the initial statement
21:26:22 <AnMaster> anything new since then?
21:26:31 <ais523> just technical details
21:26:42 <AnMaster> ais523, no reason why?
21:27:19 <ais523> this is INTERCAL, who needs reasons?
21:27:27 <ais523> but we're trying to compile a huge repo of all known C-INTERCAL history
21:27:35 <AnMaster> wow
21:27:46 <AnMaster> ais523, like every revision and version?
21:27:48 <AnMaster> of ick?
21:27:51 <ais523> yes
21:27:53 <AnMaster> or all known c-intercal code?
21:28:00 <ais523> well, it wasn't versioned particularly well in the past
21:28:03 <AnMaster> ais523, don't forget my port to MPW
21:28:05 <ais523> so the older history is a bit flaky
21:28:22 <AnMaster> ais523, probably only I have the foggiest idea how to compile that though
21:28:31 <ais523> if you have more history, like the MPW port, you could reply to the a.kl
21:28:33 <ais523> *a.l.i post
21:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I only have read only access to a.l.i
21:28:56 <AnMaster> ais523, or usenet at all rather
21:29:01 <fizzie> alise: I'd like to revisit my statements re Myst "it works in Wine"; ScummVM does have a "WIP" version of the Mohawk engine used by Myst/windows (as well as Riven and the Masterpiece Edition redo), and it's even in the SVN repo and does something; presumably not very playable yet, but last commit three weeks ago so it's not quite dead either; http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Myst
21:29:04 <alise> MPW :)
21:29:08 <fizzie> (This thing didn't exist, last I looked at it.)
21:29:10 <ais523> anyone can use Google Groups
21:29:13 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, you got the patch I think? I can link you to it otherwise
21:29:19 <ais523> I don't think I have it
21:29:24 <alise> ais523: AnMaster can't use Google Groups, they'll steal his inner goodness!
21:29:38 <ais523> well, even I'm a bit paranoid about it, to the extent of deleting cookies afterwards
21:29:39 <alise> fizzie: ScummVM is rapidly becoming AnyDamnThingVM!
21:29:51 <ais523> I have Google filtered more tightly than pretty much any other website
21:30:05 <alise> I was recently asked to
21:30:05 <alise> prepare a new INTERCAL release by no less a personage than Donald
21:30:05 <alise> Knuth, who wants to feature an INTERCAL program in his next book.
21:30:05 <AnMaster> ais523, see the files starting at ick on this url http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/
21:30:06 <alise> So that's why.
21:30:12 <AnMaster> ais523, see logs for url
21:30:16 <AnMaster> that is all I can give
21:30:18 <ais523> I knwo
21:30:19 <alise> ais523: tell Knuth that he should clearly use /your/ C-INTERCAL >:D
21:30:21 <ais523> *know
21:30:27 <ais523> alise: hey, it's backwards-compatible
21:30:31 <alise> Knuth cannot stoop so low to use esr software!
21:30:47 <ais523> and the current plan is to merge the ais and esr branches
21:30:48 <AnMaster> ais523, however there is still that issue with ick generating C89 code that MPW doesn't like
21:30:51 <alise> The new release will probably spew neoconservative propaganda on startup. >:)
21:30:53 <alise> ais523: What, forever?
21:30:55 <alise> I hope not.
21:30:57 <AnMaster> ais523, something I never got around to trying to work around
21:31:05 <AnMaster> ais523, forgot exactly what it didn't like too
21:31:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: qemu does have VM snapshots, yes.
21:31:40 <AnMaster> ais523, esr made other changes?
21:31:43 <AnMaster> it wasn't dead?
21:31:54 <ais523> only a few, it seems
21:32:08 <ais523> and none are particularly objectionable or controverisal
21:32:15 <ais523> not nearly as many as I did, anyway
21:32:20 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and another issue... I think I versioned it in bzr, I found darcs a bit annoying at that point.
21:32:21 <AnMaster> hm
21:32:44 <AnMaster> ais523, about binaries. Do you know about the two forks classic MacOS used to have?
21:33:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:33:53 <AnMaster> my point is that while I could compile it for you, there is no way I could send it in a format that could be read anywhere except on classic mac OS. Either *.sit.hqx or *.sit.bin or .img.hqx or .img.bin
21:33:58 <AnMaster> the latter is a disk image
21:34:04 <AnMaster> created by disc copy for classic mac os
21:34:09 <AnMaster> os x might be able to read it
21:34:11 <AnMaster> don't know
21:34:17 <AnMaster> it isn't an os x disk image however
21:34:26 <ais523> probably the sources are enough
21:34:32 <AnMaster> well then, see that url
21:34:36 <ais523> yep, noted
21:34:40 <AnMaster> ais523, hope the patch applies cleanly and such
21:34:46 <AnMaster> probably doesn't against last version
21:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and note: the patch is not ASCII or ISO-*
21:35:09 <AnMaster> ais523, it is MacRoman in part, this can not be avoided
21:35:18 <AnMaster> because MPW makefiles makes use of those symbols
21:35:24 <AnMaster> won't work without them
21:35:28 <ais523> yep
21:35:34 <AnMaster> it replaces stuff like : in normal makefiles and such
21:36:11 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I'm not sure if that might change line ending in some other file. Probably best to be very careful with what you apply to your own ick from that. The fixes for generating paths should work though
21:36:29 <AnMaster> there is a lengthy comment there about why exactly and so on
21:36:41 <ais523> oh, I'd have to be utterly crazy to backport fixes intended to run on MacOS Classic
21:36:43 <AnMaster> and then there were some pepet.c changes since system() won't work
21:37:00 <ais523> clearly the optimal alternative would be to instead patch autoconf to handle that operating system
21:37:02 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I meant if you want to apply to your own branch
21:37:06 <AnMaster> that is all
21:37:42 <AnMaster> ais523, the fix to generating paths and some of the stuff in perpet.c, plus some fixes to add some extra checks to configure.ac (unless I misremember) should all be fine
21:37:49 <AnMaster> the changes you should be wary about are outside the src dir
21:38:11 <alise> What character replaces : again?
21:38:25 <AnMaster> alise, eh, don't remember and doubt I could copy it anyway
21:38:42 <alise> You could recreate it with Unicode. Was it that S section symbol?
21:38:57 <AnMaster> alise, well let me open the file
21:39:04 <AnMaster> and change encoding
21:39:14 <AnMaster> since *nix editor goes spare over this patch
21:39:36 <AnMaster> -#line 238 "lexer.l"
21:39:37 <AnMaster> +#line 248 "lexer.l"
21:39:37 <AnMaster> hm
21:39:42 <AnMaster> thousands of lines like that
21:39:48 <AnMaster> for the pre-generated files
21:39:53 <AnMaster> yes macs need them
21:40:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that was another issue yeah. macs mangle \r and \n in a way similar to windows. The reverse of it that is
21:40:36 <AnMaster> \r maps to \n and \n maps to \r
21:40:38 <ais523> I know all about classic mac line endings
21:40:39 <AnMaster> in C
21:40:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but how stdio mangled I meant
21:41:04 <ais523> if anyone asks me why people sometimes use \n and sometimes use code to generate a particular line ending
21:41:21 <ais523> I tell them that it's to work around a bug on classic Mac OS, and as nobody uses that any more they can just use \n safely
21:41:42 <AnMaster> XD
21:41:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Has some sort of conversion happened to http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick_classic_macppc.diff or is it the web server or what? If I wget/curl it, the file has UTF-8 0xfffd (Unicode "replacement character") in those places you'd expect uncommon characters.
21:41:51 <AnMaster> err, kate doesn't have macroman
21:42:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, um, it shouldn't
21:42:06 <AnMaster> that's very bad
21:42:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, must be broken diff
21:42:22 <alise> Or crappy webserver.
21:42:35 <AnMaster> alise, doubt it, it servers it as application/octet-stream
21:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523, okay, working on fixing up a new diff
21:44:30 <AnMaster> not using hg diff this time, it seems at fault
21:44:54 <ais523> are you going to replace the old one?
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, I'm going to try to diff against exported r1 (clean import) and exported last revision
21:45:28 <AnMaster> with diff
21:45:39 <AnMaster> if that doesn't work I'll just upload both as tarballs or something
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21:48:38 <AnMaster> huh...
21:51:17 <fizzie> Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct.
21:51:37 <AnMaster> which is the last version
21:52:10 <AnMaster> ais523, how urgent is this? I think it may take a few hours for me to figure out which dir is the current. since the sources on the mac image doesn't perfectly match the last source control version
21:52:15 <ais523> not really urgent
21:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, should numerals.c be part of libick.a?
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21:52:46 <AnMaster> err
21:52:48 <AnMaster> .o not .c
21:52:57 <oerjan> o i c
21:53:01 <ais523> yes IIRC
21:53:07 <AnMaster> *blink*
21:53:14 <AnMaster> then this difference makes no sense
21:53:21 -!- nooga has joined.
21:53:47 <oerjan> and it's an august day!
21:54:31 * AnMaster sets mmap limit to 0 and starts sheepshaver
21:59:13 <oerjan> these logs are too long. again.
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21:59:49 <AnMaster> it is starting to make a tiny bit more sense now
22:00:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: that clearly means you are finally going insane
22:00:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, c-intercal port to classic mac os making sense, yes probably
22:01:00 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:01:10 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
22:09:15 <AnMaster> ais523, okay I made sense of the changes to the source. I will actually try to clean this up into several patches. Some of which should be applied to your own branch really since they are somewhat generic in nature
22:12:10 <alise> <fizzie> Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct.
22:12:14 <alise> I think partial differential is backspace
22:12:20 <alise> since \{foo}\ is a var in the shell
22:12:21 <alise> or rather
22:12:25 <alise> ∂{foo}∂
22:12:43 <AnMaster> hm
22:16:36 <fizzie> It's used as a line-continuation character there, anyway.
22:17:30 <alise> I mean I've seen it literally where I'd expect a backspace, so I confirm your sources are correct.
22:18:04 <fizzie> M'k.
22:18:19 <alise> K'm.
22:18:26 <fizzie> Well, it's possible to just look at https://gforge.uni.lu/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/*checkout*/tags/revision-1.0/expat-2.0.1/lib/Makefile.MPW?revision=271&root=hpc-ga-bench&pathrev=272 as an example, and set browser's character encoding to macroman.
22:18:54 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with the "{•foo•}" bits though.
22:19:45 <fizzie> Or the local sed-alike invocation: StreamEdit -d e "/•('XMLPARSEAPI('≈') ')«0,1»'XML_'([A-Za-z0-9_]+)®1'('/ Print 'XML_' ®1" "{HdrDir}expat.h" > {Targ}
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22:39:35 <AnMaster> ais523, see http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick-mac-patches.tar.gz
22:39:40 <AnMaster> ais523, see that url in log
22:39:54 <AnMaster> that tarball contains a directory of patches
22:39:59 <AnMaster> each one fixing a small thing
22:40:05 <AnMaster> should make it easier to apply
22:40:17 <AnMaster> that is against ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz as far as I know
22:40:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and configure will need to be regenerated afterwards
22:40:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it only includes diff to configure.ac, not to configure itself
22:41:05 <alise> Mac Roman, Macro Man.
22:41:15 <AnMaster> alise, yes I checked the file in the tar ball
22:41:24 <AnMaster> it contains strange stuff that is not 0xfffd
22:41:28 <AnMaster> that much I know
22:41:30 <alise> I wasn't saying anything about you.
22:44:24 <alise> Meanwhile, for no reason, a classic PFSC: http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/comics/00000028.gif
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22:47:13 <AnMaster> ais523, *prod*
22:47:23 <ais523> yes, I've seen it
22:47:39 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I get why you want to build all historic ick versions. But what has knuth got to do with it?
22:47:59 <ais523> he seems to want a new version
22:48:05 <AnMaster> ais523, hum
22:48:14 <alise> He wants esr to make a new release, because he is including a C-INTERCAL program in his next book.
22:48:15 <AnMaster> ais523, why all historic then
22:48:22 <alise> AnMaster: to merge all branches into one
22:48:22 <ais523> because
22:48:31 <ais523> and yes, easier to merge branches if you know what they are
22:48:34 <AnMaster> alise, would be lovely, but is improbable
22:48:40 <alise> AnMaster: that's what Knuth wants.
22:48:44 <alise> AnMaster: esr and ais523 are participating. there is nobody else.
22:48:47 <alise> so it is happening
22:48:50 <AnMaster> okay
22:48:57 <alise> besides, you can't disappoint knuth
22:48:58 <AnMaster> include in TAOCP?
22:49:02 <AnMaster> or some other book?
22:49:03 <alise> upsetting knuth is like ... Basically, just kill yourself.
22:49:05 <alise> AnMaster: i doubt TAOCP
22:49:08 <alise> probably some other book.
22:49:10 <AnMaster> *phew*
22:49:13 <AnMaster> right
22:49:17 <alise> Although ... that would be awesome.
22:49:31 <AnMaster> yes but unlikely since it isn't written in MMIX
22:49:34 <alise> "Here we present rinky-dink sort in INTERCAL, a popular programming language."
22:49:40 <AnMaster> XD
22:49:53 <alise> "We can contrast the structure with the MMIX version, as they both have very different control structures. However, there are some similarities."
22:49:55 <AnMaster> wtf is rinky-dinky sort btw?
22:50:05 <alise> Knuth's new O(1) sorting algorithm over any list.
22:50:06 <AnMaster> it sounds like it would only be efficient in INTERCAL, whatever it is
22:50:15 <alise> That's why it's important to get a new release.
22:50:21 <AnMaster> har har
22:50:25 <ais523> it's rare for INTERCAL to be more efficient than other languages, except in lines of code
22:50:29 <ais523> because it's compiled via other languages
22:50:53 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, at least one of the patches in that tarball fixes a code gen error that makes generated code sometimes not valid C89
22:51:07 -!- ais523 has left (?).
22:51:26 <AnMaster> <for log reading>: ais523, basically without 04_output_valid_c89.patch you can sometimes get zero length static arrays in the generated output
22:51:33 <alise> He doesn't logread.
22:51:38 <AnMaster> right
22:51:40 <alise> Try MemoServ.
22:51:45 <AnMaster> hm
22:51:49 <AnMaster> I'll mention it next time
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22:53:53 <AnMaster> oh and btw, not all of that can be compiled in sheepshaver. it is too buggy. I remember some file crashing sheepshaver. Had to compile it on my old ibook then copy the object file over
22:54:38 <zzo38> Finally I got the Icoruma->TeX to work. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi
22:55:23 <Flonk> bye everybody.
22:55:25 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
22:55:50 <zzo38> See?
22:57:06 <zzo38> Now is the time you ar expected to complain about the formatting being no good ...
22:57:40 <AnMaster> zzo38, why dvi?
22:57:48 <AnMaster> pdftex produces better results
22:57:53 <AnMaster> and pdf is nodways an open format
22:57:59 <alise> Nodways.
22:58:15 <alise> AnMaster: it won't be better unless he uses lmodern
22:58:21 <alise> and i don't think there's plain tex support for lmodern.
22:58:38 <zzo38> I can make it produce PDF as well, if you want.
22:58:39 <AnMaster> dvi2ps -> dvi2pdf actually produces worse results than pdflatex
22:58:50 <AnMaster> or pdftex
22:58:55 <AnMaster> if you are doing plain tex
22:59:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, my point is, avoid going over dvi
22:59:33 <zzo38> OK I have now both DVI and PDF.
22:59:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.pdf
22:59:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, with hyperref (latex only? I have no idea) you can get clickable links for the TOC in the pdf and so on
23:00:06 <alise> hyperref is latex only
23:00:12 <AnMaster> okay
23:00:13 <alise> like everything else
23:00:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, why are you using plain tex instead of latex?
23:00:29 <alise> he considered latex too complex
23:00:33 <alise> and couldn't get tables working properly.
23:00:45 <alise> don't knock plain tex/dvi too hard though, Knuth still writes everything in it :-D
23:00:51 <zzo38> AnMaster: Because Plain TeX works better, and I understand it.
23:00:55 <alise> although he has impeccable typographical taste
23:01:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, one minor point, on page 9 there is a table, the table is left aligned while the "Table 2-1" caption is centered
23:01:19 <AnMaster> zzo38, would probably look better if both were the same
23:01:28 <AnMaster> I would go for both centered in a float
23:01:29 <alise> both should be centred
23:01:32 <AnMaster> indeed
23:01:38 <alise> centred, not centered :P
23:01:54 <Sgeo> alise, you're no longer in the ()?
23:01:59 <alise> Sgeo: the ()?
23:02:08 <alise> what?
23:02:14 <zzo38> AnMaster,alise: Yes I do believe you. I just haven't completed it yet, but the part that works it now works. I will fix these things
23:02:17 <Sgeo> Sorry, me being silly obfuscating what I mean.
23:02:22 <Sgeo> the unit
23:02:59 <zzo38> (However, I believe there is a way of doing hyperlinks with Plain TeX, since I have seen CWEB printouts that use it (and CWEB uses Plain TeX)
23:03:06 <AnMaster> no hyphenation?
23:03:18 <zzo38> You might have to use \special or whatever, though
23:03:25 <AnMaster> ah there is one
23:03:37 <AnMaster> was worried something was broken at first
23:03:39 <AnMaster> but seems fine
23:03:48 <zzo38> Some authors do not like hyphenation
23:04:08 <zzo38> I turned off hyphenation in tables, for one thing, otherwise I would keep getting overfull hboxes
23:04:10 <AnMaster> well, tex is quite good at avoiding it when possible
23:04:11 * Sgeo pokes alise
23:04:25 <alise> i am poke'd
23:04:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, well in tables it might make sense. Also overful hboxes is not really an issue unless something actually looks wrong in the result
23:04:38 <alise> Sgeo: i'm there - as daypatient, thrice weekly.
23:04:49 <Sgeo> That's better than before, at least
23:04:54 <alise> hyphenation is a Good Thing
23:06:05 <AnMaster> zzo38, quite nice. The only issue I saw was that table not being centred
23:06:17 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, and it will be fixed later on.
23:06:18 <AnMaster> and that using pdflatex with lmodern would produce better results
23:06:43 <zzo38> I have both PDF and DVI now. But I am not using LaTeX
23:06:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Bye for now).
23:06:55 <AnMaster> the font manages to be a bit blurry on my monitor
23:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, AnMaster, you're good at paging and stuff, right?
23:10:35 <Gregor> I'm good at paging and stuff?
23:11:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, on x86-64 can you page to an address that the machine doesn't support?
23:11:18 <alise> I guess 'cause you're BORING :P
23:11:41 <Phantom_Hoover> With more than 40 bits of address, I mean.
23:11:56 <alise> I want Wooble to be a jerk to me again so I can whack him with the institution bat. >_>
23:12:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Wooble?
23:15:20 <alise> An Agora player; tends to be an asshole. To everyone.
23:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, thoughts?
23:15:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I do think you can use all 48 bits in virtual addresses; 40 bits is just how many physical address bits there are.
23:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> 48 bits‽ Not nearly enough!
23:16:14 <fizzie> Doesn't it pretty much say that? "address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual"
23:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I need 64!
23:16:26 <fizzie> Why do you need 64?
23:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Complicated.
23:16:50 <fizzie> Oh, like that Facebook relationship status.
23:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
23:17:02 <oerjan> fizzie: i think alise has been encouraging him
23:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Mine is "widowed".
23:17:43 <alise> We don't need 64 ...
23:17:47 <alise> :P
23:18:41 <fizzie> Oh, this is some sort of SECRET POR-JECT of you folks. Sounds SUSPICIOUS; expect a visit from the COPS, just in case it has to do with 64-BIT DRUGS.
23:19:27 <fizzie> I hear digital drugs are the latest thing: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/digital-drugs/
23:19:38 <oerjan> fizzie: they're persistent offenders
23:19:54 <alise> Oh, those things.
23:20:16 <fizzie> alise: They're gateway drugs to really dangerous sequences of bits.
23:20:23 <alise> Heh; available on YouTube. Even if they did work that will utterly destroy any actual binaural qualities in it.
23:20:32 <alise> There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly.
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23:21:54 <oerjan> alise: the article _starts_ talking about MP3s...
23:22:20 <alise> People use MP3 to mean any audio file nowadays.
23:22:42 <alise> I wouldn't put it past Wired, let alone a *blog* on wired.com.
23:22:59 <fizzie> People u
23:23:11 <fizzie> (at least here) use "MP3" to refer to portable media players.
23:23:17 <fizzie> "How many songs do you have on your MP3?"
23:23:28 <fizzie> "My MP3 is the red one: it can store more songs than the silver one."
23:24:31 <fizzie> The same people use "web" to mean "a instant messaging conversation performed with the aid of a webcam". As in, "I was in web with so-and-so, and ..."
23:24:44 <oerjan> alise: the wired articles doesn't really seem to be taking this seriously :D
23:24:51 <oerjan> *article
23:25:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:26:22 <oerjan> language: driving prescriptists mad since the ancient babylonians
23:26:30 <alise> *prescriptivists
23:26:34 <oerjan> *prescriptivists...dammit
23:27:06 * oerjan should have just dropped his own correction and chastised alise for taking the hook
23:27:08 -!- nooga has joined.
23:27:22 <alise> oerjan: how ironic
23:27:41 <oerjan> very meta
23:28:09 <alise> I never meta very I didn't like.
23:28:27 <oerjan> X
23:28:36 * oerjan isn't sure what his mouth is doing
23:29:16 <AnMaster> <alise> There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly. <-- ?
23:29:33 <AnMaster> why?
23:29:34 <alise> Fnord fnord fnord fnord.
23:29:42 <AnMaster> okay
23:29:43 <alise> AnMaster: because they require lots of crazy pitches and shit to "work" (if they do work at all)
23:29:55 <alise> psychoacoustic compression is designed for the sound of music and the like, not precision
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23:31:06 <oerjan> sounds like the perfect weapon for those evil-AI-in-a-not-quite-perfect-box things
23:31:14 <fizzie> It's not strange that something you're not supposed to consciously notice is messed by a compression method based on keeping only noticeable features of the sound and throwing away all the rest.
23:32:11 <fizzie> Especially the "joint stereo" stuff would probably horribly break all that fluff. Assuming any of it does anything, that is.
23:36:05 <fizzie> Also: who's responsible if a low-bitrate encoding of a drug-soundclip causes some kid to think he's an orange and peel himself with a knife? The codec author? Ratifier of the corresponding standard? These are important questions.
23:36:32 <AnMaster> whaaat?
23:36:58 <fizzie> See the wired link for contect.
23:37:13 <fizzie> Text.
23:38:20 <fizzie> (Asleep now.)
23:38:52 <alise> fizzie sleepIRCs.
23:38:54 <AnMaster> what the fuck
23:39:20 <AnMaster> alise, fizzie, after reading the wired link I can only conclude that people from the onion invaded their office
23:39:26 <AnMaster> it is that weird
23:46:51 <oerjan> maybe they've been listening to drugs
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00:12:22 <AnMaster> alise, so, did the kernel finish installing yet?
00:14:08 <AnMaster> well then... night
00:16:21 <alise> AnMaster: haven't started yet
00:37:59 <AnMaster> alise, couldn't sleep, due to this idea:
00:38:05 <AnMaster> md5 quine
00:38:19 <AnMaster> possible?
00:38:38 <AnMaster> alise, ^
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00:48:39 <AnMaster> night →
00:55:05 <alise> AnMaster: hmm
00:55:24 <alise> AnMaster: crc32 quines exist i think
00:55:26 <alise> or something
00:55:28 <alise> so possible
01:01:15 <alise> Genteelmen.
01:04:28 <alise> Project for the insane: Translate Hamlet to Toki Pona.
01:07:33 <alise> It doesn't even have a word for "green"; you have to use "yelo laso" (yellow blue) or something.
01:08:07 <alise> Toki Ponans express larger numbers additively by using phrases such as tu wan for three, tu tu for four, and so on.[27] This feature was added to make it impractical to communicate large numbers.[6]
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01:14:22 <alise> tu tu mute tu wan
01:14:28 <alise> "four many three" = 4*3
01:14:33 <alise> I have thwarted you, Kisa!
01:14:46 <oerjan> now to ackermann
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01:27:25 <alise> Hi CakeProphet
01:27:35 <alise> Prophesised any cakes recently?
01:29:44 * Sgeo thought Sapir-Worf was discredited?
01:32:52 <alise> Context?
01:32:54 <alise> *Sapir-Whorf
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01:34:01 <alise> Sgeo:
01:34:18 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona
01:34:33 <alise> yes, it is; but otoh, toki pona utilises something a bit weaker than sapir-whorf
01:34:41 <alise> i.e. "making it linguistically a bitch to say anything complex or bad"
01:34:48 <alise> which is obviously possible
01:36:04 <alise> DAMMIT
01:36:09 * alise presses alt+f4 on qemu by mistake
01:39:48 <oklopol> <AnMaster> md5 quine <<< if it's any good a hash, it's highly likely that there is a quine, you need 23 ppl for birthday paradox, in the md5 paradox you have 2^128 people and 2^128 days
01:40:08 <oklopol> of course if you meant whether it's possible to *find* one
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01:44:43 <Sgeo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/MD5
01:52:57 <oklopol> quoting uncyclopedia isn't much of an argument, how could you trust it when anyone can just put whatever they want in there
01:54:54 * Sgeo blehs at his dad wanting to buy him a Kindle
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01:57:58 <alise> Sgeo: Which you obviously must obey.
01:58:20 <Sgeo> Honestly, one of the main things I want is the ability to use it like blank pen and paper
01:58:37 <Sgeo> I saw a review suggesting that the handwriting stuff is better for short notes than for that sort of thing
01:58:49 <Sgeo> But I guess I'll have to try it in a store [the Sony eReader Touch]
01:59:19 <Sgeo> It would mean I'd be far more mathy, imo
02:01:31 <alise> irex
02:02:01 <Sgeo> Last time we had this discussion, I remember commenting that that's expensive, iirc?
02:02:32 <alise> Only outside of US.
02:02:55 <Gregor> It's not exactly cheap in the US either :P
02:03:07 <Sgeo> "Oops! Google Chrome could not find shop.ereaderoutfitters.com
02:03:07 <Sgeo> "
02:03:19 <Sgeo> n/m
02:04:39 <Sgeo> Does IREX have a handwriting thingy, so I can do math stuff?
02:04:48 <Sgeo> And take notes for class?
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02:06:15 <Sgeo> "Sorry, the page you requested was not found."
02:06:23 <Sgeo> ^^trying to go to the BestBuy link
02:09:14 <alise> IREX does handwriting I think
02:09:16 <alise> It has a stylus
02:10:39 <Sgeo> I'm having trouble finding it
02:10:50 <Sgeo> Unless you're referring to iLiad
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02:11:23 <Sgeo> $4800
02:11:26 <Sgeo> erm, $480
02:11:29 <Sgeo> Still expensive
02:12:33 <Sgeo> Any reasons not to get a Sony eReader Touch?
02:13:52 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll get a chance to try it in-person
02:13:54 <alise> It's not an irex.
02:14:01 <alise> iLiad is the old irex
02:14:03 <alise> ask Gregor
02:14:20 <alise> http://www.irexreader.com/
02:16:50 <Gregor> The IREX DR800SG is what I have.
02:16:53 <Gregor> It is not $480
02:17:15 <Sgeo> How much is it?
02:17:51 <Gregor> Idonno, I don't know where you can buy it anymore.
02:17:58 <Gregor> It used to be on bestbuy.com, but it seems it's not any more.
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02:22:16 <Sgeo> Again, is there anything wrong with getting a Sony eReader Touch?
02:22:33 <alise> herpes
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02:28:19 <alise> hi augur
02:28:45 <Gregor> Sgeo: 's probably OK.
02:28:45 <Gregor> Idonno
02:29:02 <augur> hello, alise, my dear
02:29:15 <alise> drop the last two words there :|
02:29:18 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make sure the software installs onto my computer successfully
02:29:38 <alise> Sgeo: it's not linux :D
02:30:21 <Sgeo> Is there a Linux version? Maybe I should use that. My Windows install is rather FUBARed right now
02:30:39 <alise> i mean sony reader isn't
02:30:41 <alise> irex is linux
02:30:54 <augur> hello, alise,
02:31:07 <alise> augur: also the comma.
02:31:15 <augur> hello alise,
02:31:16 <alise> if i said last clause you'd just linguistically correct me pedantically
02:31:26 <augur> what?
02:31:40 <Gregor> alise: The Sony Reader doesn't run Linux? That sounds unlikely.
02:31:42 <Gregor> They all do.
02:31:45 <augur> oh, yes, well, there was no clause there, so.
02:31:49 <Gregor> It might be less hackable.
02:31:56 <alise> augur: precisely
02:32:04 <alise> Gregor: Well, yeah, but it's probably not X11.
02:32:06 <augur> so yeah
02:32:07 <alise> Which is a good bad thing.
02:32:09 <augur> hello alise,
02:32:12 <augur> hows life
02:32:12 <Gregor> alise: Yesh :P
02:32:19 <alise> Erm.
02:32:20 <alise> A bad good thing.
02:32:22 <alise> I think.
02:32:29 <augur> ahh
02:32:31 <augur> badgood
02:32:38 <augur> the bane of goodbad's existance
02:33:40 <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
02:33:56 <Sgeo> alise, when will you read Fine Structure?
02:35:03 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:35:24 <augur> Sgeo: what's Fine Structure?
02:35:27 <alise> when the universe all's out of line and -- "Fucking--! What the fuck i-- I'm not even going to ask, where is the prince, is the prince here? What have you done with the prince?" "Sir, I'm sor-" "No. No fucking sorry. I want to know where the prince is." There was silence for minutes. "... follow me." He was lead into a ch-- what is this that I have found to happen? The things are all whats.
02:35:33 <alise> augur: a sci-fi novel by Sam Hughes
02:35:36 <augur> ahh
02:35:39 <alise> Sgeo: ^ there is your answer
02:35:52 <Sgeo> o.O
02:36:02 <Sgeo> So, I can feel free to spoil you?
02:36:46 <Gregor> Damn it augur and alise, stop having names that both begin with 'a' and are the same number of characters long >_<
02:37:07 <alise> Sgeo: No.
02:39:13 <Sgeo> Stuff happens
02:40:19 <augur> yes, stuff does >3
02:40:32 <alise> Sgeo: gasp
02:45:13 * Sgeo needs to fix IE somehow
02:47:01 * Sgeo wonders if installing IE8 then uninstalling IE8 would fix IE6
02:47:26 <Sgeo> But for now, I'll just install IE8
02:48:19 <Sgeo> Bleh, installer said it couldn't uninstall the "current version" of IE8
02:48:27 <Sgeo> So it will install over it a new, unremovable version
02:48:28 <Sgeo> :/
02:48:51 <Gregor> ... how about you just USE IE8 ...
02:49:07 <Gregor> Actually, how about you use a real browser, but one step at a time.
02:49:44 <Sgeo> First, there are many applications that rely on IE for one reason or another.
02:49:57 <Sgeo> Second, Windows Activation happens to be one of them.. and it demands IE6
02:50:07 <Sgeo> So when I eventually do a Repair Install...
02:50:38 <Gregor> Activation demands IE6? That's hilariously broken even for MS :P
02:51:08 <Sgeo> I actually thought about attempting to .. do piratey stuff to my otherwise legit XP install to get around it
02:51:12 <Sgeo> Last time I did a Repair Install
02:51:46 <alise> http://abstrusegoose.com/249
02:53:56 <Sgeo> Well, restarting
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03:06:20 <Sgeo> Hm
03:06:31 <Sgeo> Installing IE8 fixed the problem with there being no default browser
03:06:39 <Sgeo> And it made the default browser Chrome
03:07:07 <Gregor> lawl
03:07:11 <Sgeo> [Well, I think Chrome was the default, but installing IE fixed.. the thingy that handles URLs]
03:07:12 <Gregor> Good choice, IE8!
03:12:27 * Sgeo needs to find his library card
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03:28:28 <Sgeo> comex, congratulations
03:29:06 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
03:29:19 <HackEgo> 202|<Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
03:29:46 <Sgeo> ALthough, uh.. this means that malicious websites could do evil things, right?
03:30:15 <oerjan> *GASP*
03:30:34 <oerjan> and here i thought malicious websites only did _good_ things
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03:32:02 <alise> Sgeo: why congrats to comex?
03:32:19 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/cw6ym/iphone_401_jailbreak_via_safari/
03:32:32 <Sgeo> http://www.jailbreakme.com/faq.html
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03:37:45 <alise> Sweet. It's back.
03:39:14 <augur> god
03:39:19 <augur> im totally comment spamming this thread
03:39:29 <augur> so much to say!
03:39:32 <augur> x.x
03:39:58 <alise> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/01/official-iphone-4-jailbreak-hits-from-iphone-dev-team/
03:40:39 <augur> alise: you know anything about theorem proving?
03:40:45 <alise> Of what sort?
03:41:10 <augur> any
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03:46:56 <alise> http://twitter.com/joshwrobel <-- boohoo
03:51:54 <augur> no huh
03:52:57 <alise> Well, goodnight.
03:53:16 <alise> Bye.
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05:05:58 <Gregor> Dang it, uploading 70MB or so of audio files = slow :P
05:08:21 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg
05:11:21 <Gregor> AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^
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05:30:02 <augur> Gregor: will look after BBT
05:54:13 <augur> omg bbt
05:54:14 <augur> ":D
05:54:37 <augur> Gregor: did your algos generate this?
05:55:00 <Gregor> >_<
05:55:04 <Gregor> The algos in my brain
05:55:07 <Gregor> And hands
05:55:15 <Gregor> And right foot
05:55:30 <augur> o
05:55:34 <augur> well thats not impressive
05:55:44 <augur> any skilled human composer can write good piano music
05:56:16 <Gregor> That sentence ... is its own definition :P
05:56:43 <augur> i dont know what that means, but ok :D
05:58:42 <Gregor> A skilled composer is someone who can write good music. Someone who can write good music is a skilled composer. So the only addition is "piano", which is obvious since the piano is a versatile solo instrument that nearly anyone who can play any instrument can play.
05:59:37 <Gregor> Oh, and "human" I suppose, but I am insufficiently skilled at MAGIC to write a skilled computer composer :P
06:00:19 <augur> <sheldon cooper> it was a compliment, take it for what it is. </sheldon cooper>
06:01:28 <augur> also, it was a carefully crafted sentence and im glad you appreciated it for that.
06:01:30 <augur> <3
06:03:22 <Gregor> :P
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08:38:55 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^ <-- mmm thanks, will listen in a few hours, just woke up and have to head out
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09:16:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3192314056/
09:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Awesome.
09:21:12 <fizzie> Somehow it doesn't look flight-save.
09:22:27 <fizzie> There's two other nice ones in a gallery about the effect: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3904937619/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/meriko/4013673616/
09:38:19 <augur> fizzie: yes.
09:39:39 <augur> i would love to do a bullettime fly around of such a thing
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10:08:27 <AnMaster> I'm *so* happy I got RAID 1. Really
10:08:42 * AnMaster uses mdadm to fail one device
10:08:57 <AnMaster> now to figure out which one it is physically
10:30:41 <AnMaster> mdadm monitoring daemon mail from that: http://sprunge.us/YUZe
10:30:46 <AnMaster> strange style it is written in
10:31:09 <AnMaster> I mean, think about it, an auto generated mail have no reason to use P.S. ... really
10:53:13 <fizzie> It's a reasonably common style, though, to make app-generated emails look as if they were written by a person.
10:53:19 <fizzie> qmail does it a lot, IIRC.
10:53:50 <fizzie> It's bounces look like:
10:54:04 <fizzie> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at [host].
10:54:04 <fizzie> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
10:54:04 <fizzie> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
10:55:24 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why are you so happy?
10:56:10 <fizzie> One broken disk, no data loss; I presume.
10:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Not with RAID 1, surely?
10:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> RAID 1 just striped, I thought.
10:58:05 <fizzie> That's RAID 0.
10:58:08 <fizzie> RAID 1 is the mirrored one.
11:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, where you just have a few disks with the same data on all of them.
11:06:46 <fizzie> Right. Usually few == 2.
11:08:06 <AnMaster> <fizzie> One broken disk, no data loss; I presume. <-- one broken disk, no need to restore from slow backup
11:08:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, any opinions on if this is drive or mobo? http://sprunge.us/bfPd
11:09:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, I suspect drive since it seems to have vibration issues as well...
11:09:31 <AnMaster> noticed that when using hdparm -y to identify which physical drive it was
11:10:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would use few = 3, except my mobo only has two sata connectors
11:10:59 <fizzie> I wouldn't use few == 3, I'm not made of money.
11:11:09 <fizzie> Did you check smartctl's statistics, if applicable?
11:11:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I checked that, no errors reported. but that drive spun down several more times (it does at each error)
11:11:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, but if you mean vibration stats I don't think it has that
11:12:43 <fizzie> Well, I guess the drive is more likely anyway; if the sata controller has been burninated, you'd probably see errors on all channels. (Of course it's probably *possible* for it to break so that only one port goes, but it's maybe not so likely.)
11:12:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, the disk is quite readable, md data check passes but it does have vibration issues and it does spin down and lock everything up every now and then
11:13:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is interesting that there seems to be no place to see that ata1.00 == sda
11:14:40 <AnMaster> I mean, I figured it out from spin down count for smartctl -A and also that when running extended self test, the drive spun down, and when it restarted it had completely forgot about this last self test
11:20:20 <fizzie> ls -l /sys/dev/block | grep sda/ => "8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/" -- the physical path there (target0:0:0) is somewhat likely to correspond to connectors. (Though on my system changing BIOS flips for SATA mode -- legacy IDE, AHCI, silly-RAID -- can rearrange in which order connectors {0, 1, 2, 3} and {4, 5} appear.)
11:21:18 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where the "ata1.00" name comes from, though. I guess it could be something driver-internal.
11:22:27 <fizzie> Bleh. These two files should be identical, but one has 21639 lines in it while the other has only 16254; that's not quite identical to me.
11:22:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, the other disk is ata2.00 iirc
11:23:12 <AnMaster> and my dvd is ata3.00
11:25:11 <fizzie> The other car is a cdr.
11:26:09 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 1 aug 21.48 8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:0f.0/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda
11:26:10 <AnMaster> hm
11:26:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, where in that did you say ata1.00 was
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11:27:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, and driver is sata_via iirc
11:34:06 <fizzie> I just think that the "ataN" numbering would be in the same order than what's in /sys/bus/scsi/devices, though there might be some differences in 0-/1-based indexing and/or if there's multiple SATA controllers around.
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11:38:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is a SATA controller and a PATA controller
11:40:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you have any idea about this:
11:40:45 <AnMaster> # lspci | grep ISA
11:40:46 <AnMaster> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation ICH9M LPC Interface Controller (rev 03)
11:40:51 <AnMaster> that is on a no-legacy thinkpad
11:41:06 <AnMaster> well, some legacy I guess
11:41:08 <AnMaster> considering that
11:41:41 <fizzie> There's an ISA bridge almost everywhere; often the temperature sensors/smbus/i2c/whatever are hooked to it.
11:42:09 <fizzie> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JDO (ICH10DO) LPC Interface Controller (rev 02)
11:42:12 <AnMaster> hm sensors does say coretemp-isa-0000
11:42:20 <AnMaster> but I doubt that one is actually ISA
11:42:40 <AnMaster> thinkpad-isa-0000, well I think that is virtualish.
11:43:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, I like your last work so far
11:46:51 <fizzie> I don't know what the "-isa-" part there is trying to say; coretemp uses the rdmsr opcode to read the temperature.
11:51:30 <fizzie> ICH's (a random version) data sheet says: "Low Pin count (LPC) Interface: Allows Connection of Legacy ISA and X-Bus devices such as Super I/O; Supports Two Master/DMA Devices".
11:52:00 <fizzie> I think the actual sensors in at least one of my (otherwise pretty un-legacy) boxes lives in the traditional ISA bus I/O range.
11:53:20 <fizzie> sensors-detect:
11:53:22 <fizzie> Driver `f71882fg':
11:53:22 <fizzie> * ISA bus, address 0x295
11:53:22 <fizzie> Chip `Fintek F71862FG Super IO Sensors' (confidence: 9)
11:54:19 <fizzie> (This was from that Atom box.)
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12:06:23 <AnMaster> hm
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12:37:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems that thinkpad-isa is really provided by ACPI
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12:46:54 <fizzie> Hm, there doesn't seem to be lm-sensors package for the N900, at least in the repo. It does have drivers for the sensors; there's /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon[01] (omap temperature sensor and something in the i2c bus), and I can even read current brightness and such from the files there, but there's no user-space command-line app. (There's some battery-graphing tools that I think monitor sensors too, and a port of http://conky.sourceforge.net/, but that's about it.
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13:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it count as open-source if you distribute an executable for which there /is/ no source code?
13:12:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with no source? lost source? written in machine code directly with a hex editor?
13:13:12 <AnMaster> the former I would say no, the latter probably yes
13:13:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Written directly with a hex editor.
13:13:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, depends on the license too
13:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Assuming all of those things.
13:15:08 <fizzie> OSI's definition is: "The source code must be the preferred form in which a programmer would modify the program."
13:15:29 <fizzie> So, uh... I guess it depends on which programmer you ask.
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13:27:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't it also require that it has a free license?
13:27:09 <AnMaster> such as BSD or GPL or whatever
13:39:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Is using non-tail recursion A Bad Thing?
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13:44:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it requires all kinds of things; that was just the part defining "source code".
13:52:48 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: only for many function calls
13:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> derdon, recursion tends to imply many calls.
13:53:45 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: no, not necessarily
13:54:04 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: you can define this typical recursive definition of a factorial
13:54:12 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: and then compute the factorial of 5
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13:54:41 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: there are less function calls than with the factorial of 100
13:54:45 <derdon> should be clear
13:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, of course.
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14:06:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
14:06:45 <oerjan> ssh, it's a secret
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14:37:09 <Flonk> g'day
14:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Good day.
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15:20:23 <cpressey> So, cabal (Haskell) and setuptools (Python) are too similar to be explained by coincidence. Who copied who?
15:22:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Who was first?
15:22:33 <Sgeo> "In an effort to prevent bots from registering and spamming up the forum, you are kindly requested to refrain from registering if you are incapable of feeling love.
15:22:44 <Sgeo> "If this prevents you from registering and you are a human, maybe you should talk to someone about it."
15:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> How do they test for it?
15:23:38 <cpressey> It's like the Turing test except... no, I cannot say.
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15:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Random thought: conspiracy to commit a crime is itself a crime isn't it?
15:39:03 <ais523> in most cases, although it's a different crime
15:39:17 <ais523> in the UK, incidentally, conspiracy to defraud is illegal, but fraud itself isn't
15:39:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime?
15:39:53 <ais523> which is a weird glitch on the legal system
15:39:58 <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
15:40:31 <oerjan> norway is currently having a slight problem with this: conspiring to commit terrorism is criminal, but planning to commit terrorism by yourself isn't (unless you actually go ahead and do it)
15:41:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Weird...
15:41:12 <oerjan> they arrested three people who were supposedly terrorists, but they're having trouble proving more than one of them actually knew what was happening :D
15:41:56 <oerjan> which means in principle _all_ of them might go free, even the main guy
15:42:12 <oerjan> (since they never got to actually carry out the plan)
15:58:01 <Gregor> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
15:58:07 <HackEgo> 203|<Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
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16:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, Cat's Eye is a consultancy complany?
16:53:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it used to be.
16:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it now?
16:53:41 <cpressey> I don't do a lot of consulting these day.
16:53:43 <cpressey> *days.
16:53:53 <cpressey> It is what it says on the front page now :)
16:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> A concern?
16:55:49 <cpressey> Hey, if someone requires my unique services and is willing to pay me for it, I'm open to discussion. But while I was working for corporations with "non compete" clauses I couldn't do any consulting work.
16:56:00 <cpressey> Yes, a "concern". :)
16:56:19 <olsner> heh, found cpressey's linked-in page :) "Esoteric Programming Language Designer" is an awesome job title btw
16:56:36 <cpressey> Yes. I take LinkedIn VERY seriously, you see...
16:56:38 * oerjan notes that "konsern" in norwegian means a large corporation
16:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, probably the same root.
16:57:19 <oerjan> obviously
16:57:29 <olsner> doesn't english 'concern' also have that meaning?
16:57:34 <cpressey> I think "concern" is usually how "large corporation" is translated from Japanese to English, too.
16:57:55 <cpressey> It's such a general, ambiguous word in English.
16:58:10 <oerjan> c -> k,s according to pronunciation is a regular rule in norwegian spelling
16:59:11 <oerjan> actually it seems to mean a group of companies
16:59:50 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern_(business) seems to be a german borrowing
17:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, what business can you do with esolangs?
17:00:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You tell me! :)
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17:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, torture device?
17:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "So, you won't talk? Then implement quicksort in Lazy K!"
17:01:40 <oerjan> that article has some horrible grammar :D
17:02:07 <olsner> if you start posting esolangs on the esolangs reddit you can at least get some reddit karma
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17:07:34 <Sgeo> There's an esolangs reddit?
17:07:49 <olsner> http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/
17:08:11 <oerjan> "conglomerate" seems to be a more precise english equivalent. maybe _too_ precise.
17:08:25 * Sgeo was about to ask why eso-std is mentioned, but it's apparently 2 years old
17:08:30 <oerjan> (or narrow)
17:08:49 <olsner> there was an initial torrent of activity around the time it started, a couple of years later I made the first comment
17:09:27 <cpressey> oerjan: In English it can be used informally to refer to a single company or other organization
17:10:18 <cpressey> Or, of course, in the very general sense of "nexus of interest", which is kind of how I was applying it.
17:14:24 * oerjan isn't sure if you can say that in norwegian without being closer to either issue ("sak") or worry ("bekymring")
17:16:24 <olsner> I think the same applies to swedish
17:17:03 <oerjan> hm looking at wiktionary interest ("interesse") might also apply
17:17:14 <olsner> oddly enough we have the verb concern (as 'koncernera') in swedish
17:17:39 <oerjan> not in norwegian afaik
17:18:39 <olsner> but it's very seldomly used (would sound very swenglish, although it's very old and actually imported from german rather than english)
17:19:44 <olsner> it has synonyms though - avse, angå, röra
17:19:53 <oerjan> might use berøre ("touch")
17:20:07 <oerjan> ah angå as well
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17:50:07 <fizzie> cpressey: Oh, but "concern" would apply to catseye also in the "concern, worry, headache, vexation -- (something or someone that causes anxiety; a source of unhappiness; "New York traffic is a constant concern"; "it's a major worry")" sense pretty well, wouldn't it?
17:50:20 <cpressey> fizzie: Yup :)
17:50:59 <olsner> oh, wasn't that exactly what someone meant?
17:51:03 <cpressey> Whatever is to be done with all these esolangs?
17:51:20 <olsner> "but cat's eye doesn't do anything now" -> "is that something to be worried about?"
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18:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a minimum number of bits required for a Unicode character?
18:53:41 <fizzie> They've promised that all Unicode characters will be in the range from 0 to 0x10ffff, if that's what you mean.
18:54:28 <cpressey> And if that's NOT what you mean, then yes but that's more a question about compression than about Unicode.
18:56:01 <fizzie> Rather large amounts of that range are currently empty, but of course they might fill them later. (Since they did jump from the original 16 bits to 17 planes of that size, I guess it's concievable that they might go all "whoops, we'll need a bit more range after all" again.)
18:56:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, um. what encoding?
18:56:34 <AnMaster> unicode is not an encoding after all... utf-8, utf-16, UCS4 and so on are
18:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Not encoding; just the codepoints.
18:56:41 <cpressey> fizzie: As long as they don't introduce a typesetting equivalent of leap seconds...
18:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably there's a specified largest codepoint, which can be represented with a fixed number of bits.
18:57:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, I guess one but for the first two chars, two bits for the first 4 chars and so on :P
18:57:25 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's a finite range, at least at the moment.
18:57:33 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: 0x10ffff, like I said.
18:57:36 <AnMaster> ah not in that sense
18:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, the moment? They could embiggen it in the future?
18:57:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, why only 0x10ffff ? And not 0xffffff
18:58:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They could replace the contents of the standard with base64-encoded porn in the future, if they want.
18:58:15 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, they've sort-of promised they won't.
18:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Good enough.
18:58:38 <fizzie> (Expand it, I mean. I don't know if they've made any promises about the porn thing.)
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18:59:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't know why; there's the BMP and then 16 "supplemental planes" of the same size; 17*65536-1 gives 0x10ffff.
19:00:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, huh
19:00:45 <fizzie> It's a bit curious that they defined 16 supplemental planes and not 15; with 15 it'd be a reasonable [0, 0xfffff] range.
19:01:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, 24 bits?
19:01:30 <fizzie> 20 bits. One nybble for the plane, 16 for index in it.
19:01:48 <fizzie> Planes 3-13 (in the numbering where BMP is 0, and the rest are 1...16) are unassigned at the moment, so it's mostly empty still.
19:02:24 <AnMaster> I always thought unicode was 32-bit... Now I'm all confused
19:02:49 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: plane 3 is finally being filled with some other anarchic ideographs.
19:02:51 <Gregor-P> UTF-8 maxes out at 21 bits.
19:02:57 <AnMaster> huh
19:02:59 <fizzie> Like you said, it's not an encoding; there's just the range of defined codepoints.
19:03:08 <cpressey> Maybe that's why there's so much empty space in atoms and galaxies -- reserved for future expansion.
19:03:12 <Gregor-P> 11110xxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:04:30 <Gregor-P> Although a five-byte non-standard UTF-8 encoding would be pretty obvious: 111110xx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:04:41 <fizzie> And the six-byte, too.
19:04:52 <fizzie> I guess that goes up to the full 32-bit range.
19:05:16 <fizzie> Or maybe not. There's 31 "data" bits in a six-byte sequence.
19:05:39 <Gregor-P> SO CLOSE
19:05:52 <fizzie> Wasn't it so that the earlier UTF-8 spec did go up to 6 bytes?
19:06:01 <fizzie> "The original specification allowed for sequences of up to six bytes covering numbers up to 31 bits (the original limit of the Universal Character Set). However, UTF-8 was restricted by RFC 3629 (Note: IETF doesn't define UTF-8, Unicode does) to use only the area covered by the formal Unicode definition, U+0000 to U+10FFFF, in November 2003."
19:06:06 <fizzie> Right, it seems to have been.
19:06:13 <Gregor-P> Seven-byte, with the first byte containing no payload :P
19:06:31 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: 31-bit limit seems to be a original codepoint space of UCS (before it kept synchronized to unicode)
19:06:43 <fizzie> Gregor-P: You could do that, but it'd be even more nonstandard, if that's a concept.
19:09:16 <Gregor-P> Eight-byte UTF-8 would break all the invariants though :(
19:09:43 <Gregor-P> 11111111 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:10:02 <Gregor-P> And nine-byte is crazy stew.
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19:11:11 <zzo38> Why do I get "! Emergency stop." when entering "\relax" at the METAFONT prompt?
19:12:44 <cpressey> Because Irony is still up to her old tricks, it seems.
19:13:17 <olsner> maybe \panic will reset the emergency brakes
19:13:19 <zzo38> I have tried entering other things too, I get the same error regardless of what command I enter.
19:13:36 <zzo38> I get the same error with "\panic"
19:13:47 <zzo38> Just like anything else I try
19:21:10 <Phantom_Hoover> \don't panic
19:22:40 <zzo38> That isn't going to work any better (I did try it anyways)
19:24:10 <cpressey> zzo38: Try "plain" ?
19:24:54 <zzo38> Now I got a whole bunch of stuff but it still stopped
19:25:10 <cpressey> zzo38: OK, so at least that's something
19:25:13 <zzo38> And I got various error messages
19:25:13 <cpressey> I got that from: http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=useMF
19:25:44 <zzo38> Including "! Missing `)' has been inserted." and "! Missing `=' has been inserted." and various other things.
19:25:56 <fizzie> Find some sort of metafont example and build on that? It doesn't sound very feasible to just start typing stuff and find things out by trial-and-error, no matter how noble it sounds.
19:26:18 <zzo38> I did find an example, and the example told me to start by typing "\relax".
19:26:39 <cpressey> Bad example! /me whacks example with newspaper
19:26:41 <fizzie> There's a bit on MetaFont in this TeX book -- http://makingtexwork.sourceforge.net/mtw/ch11.html -- but it's mostly about how to run existing programs.
19:26:57 <zzo38> Followed by "a+b-c=0;"
19:27:15 <zzo38> However it stops after "\relax" so I can't get a chance to enter "a+b-c=0;"
19:28:28 <fizzie> Hm.
19:28:36 <zzo38> O, I must have forgotten to build the base files.
19:28:39 <fizzie> "mf" here does what the example says it should.
19:28:51 <fizzie> (Namely, change the prompt from ** to *.)'
19:30:13 <zzo38> Which directories do I build the base with MiKTeX? Is there some environment variables I need to set?
19:31:46 <zzo38> (With TeX it works to enter "\relax" at the "**" prompt and then any TeX codes can be entered, and it won't be emergency stop until CTRL+C is pushed.)
19:32:04 <cpressey> I get the feelin' yer askin' the wrong channel, pilgrim.
19:32:42 <zzo38> cpressey: I do too but what is the right channel? I can't find it
19:33:20 <cpressey> zzo38: errr... have you tried in #latex ?
19:33:35 <cpressey> Just a guess
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19:34:11 <zzo38> O, I tried #TeX and #metafont
19:34:25 <zzo38> Now I know.
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19:46:43 <cpressey> Now I have an itch to build an excessively convoluted command-line interface.
19:52:21 <olsner> after reading some more about php, I now have an itch to get rid of wordpress
19:52:49 <Gregor-P> olsner: And rewrite it in Perl :P
19:53:00 <cpressey> OH BUT PHP IS BEAUTY INCARNATE
19:53:02 <olsner> definitely not perl, anything except perl
19:53:14 <olsner> probably not python either
19:53:34 <Gregor-P> The real problem is that all languages suck.
19:53:37 <olsner> yeah
19:54:04 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, why does PHP incur such hatred?
19:54:07 <cpressey> Some do suck less than others.
19:54:43 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's mostly because it's a language which is easy to write badly in, commonly used by bad programmers, and also badly designed (especially wrt security)
19:54:46 <Gregor-P> PHP's only real problems are that it's like a language from 1985 in terms of features and that its library is an enormous flat namespace.
19:54:58 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/about/php.html
19:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Namespacing never stopped CL...
19:55:29 <Gregor-P> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Because everyone uses CL.
19:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Fair enough.
19:56:15 <cpressey> s/CL/C/
19:56:58 <Gregor-P> Even C has a better namespace story thanks to separate compilation.
19:57:32 <olsner> oh wow, the PHP while loop... what's sad is that it seems *every* feature of php has been implemented similarly
19:57:37 <cpressey> There is THAT. PHP is an interpreted language that doesn't even have separate compilation, go figure.
19:58:19 <Gregor-P> The problem though is that every other language sucks too :P
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19:58:44 <olsner> none of the perfect languages suck!
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19:59:04 <Gregor-P> IMHO PHP is better for its purpose than Python, but worse for any other purpose, and both are terrible :P
19:59:07 <olsner> neither do any of the non-perfect but still non-sucky ones
19:59:59 <cpressey> Haskell doesn't suck.
20:00:00 <olsner> Gregor-P: you mean it's better than python for php's purpose or better than python is for *its* purpose?
20:00:02 <cpressey> HAHAHAHA
20:00:25 <Gregor-P> olsner: Better thab Python at being PHP :P
20:00:31 <Gregor-P> *than
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20:01:15 <Gregor-P> cpressey: I DESPERATELY want somebody to write a Hackiki userland in Haskell :P
20:02:49 <Gregor-P> It would be AWESOME
20:03:09 <cpressey> Gregor-P: yeah yeah. So what would it take for a language to not suck?\
20:03:25 <cpressey> Because I agree, they all do. Even if some more than others.
20:03:46 <cpressey> The soft ones are too soft and the hard ones are too hard.
20:04:01 <Gregor-P> I don't know.
20:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they suck, ultimately, because you can't go straight from thoughts to code.
20:04:18 <Gregor-P> Plof ain't it, as fun as it is :P
20:04:25 <cpressey> Oh god, maintaining someone else's thoughts would be a nightmare.
20:04:42 <Gregor-P> cpressey: ... literally.
20:04:50 <cpressey> Yeah pretty much.
20:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, define "perfect" for a language.
20:09:18 <Gregor-P> Oh, is the problem that simple? X-P
20:09:33 <olsner> take all existing good-enough languages, eliminate their suckage, you should end up with perfection
20:12:08 <relet> yup, but it won't compile.
20:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what languages do you define as "good enough"?
20:16:17 <olsner> the ones that are good enough, of course
20:17:19 <Gregor-P> Also, they're "good enough" in wildly incompatible ways and for completely different reasons.
20:17:39 <olsner> hmm, ok, of the ones I've tried, probably haskell is the only one that qualifies
20:17:53 <Gregor-P> NOT GOOD ENOUGH
20:18:10 <olsner> and C is pretty close due to its simplicity (but is lacking obvious enhancements that would make it good enough)
20:18:26 <Gregor-P> Plof is the king of languages and the language of kings.
20:20:25 <Gregor-P> How about recursiveC: a C-based language in which you can define arbitrary code to be "static", and the output of that static code is code. You could implement e.g. OO as libraries. Compile to fixed-point!
20:20:59 <cpressey> Haskell, Python, Java, and C have a significantly lower rate of making me vomit than PHP, and C++
20:21:19 <cpressey> Not sure about Perl -- it's in between
20:21:35 <cpressey> Not sure about Ruby either
20:21:42 <olsner> "The core bytecode language is only a few hundred operations" :/ java makes do with just over 100 iirc, and that's with many operations duplicated for ints, longs, doubles, floats and objects
20:22:22 <cpressey> Gregor-P: RecursiveC sounds like an idiomatically Gregoresque language.
20:23:05 <fizzie> Gregor-P: re recursiveC: DOUBLE COMPILE. (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w and related)
20:25:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:25:13 <olsner> Gregor-P: C++ did that, but instead of overloading yet another meaning of 'static' they introduced a new keyword: 'template'
20:27:47 <cpressey> See, Plof is far far too soft and recursiveC is far far too hard.
20:28:46 <cpressey> I suspect we still (as a species) have yet to learn how to specify programming languages well.
20:29:02 <cpressey> And "still have yet" is redundant.
20:29:12 <cpressey> So there, cpressey. :P
20:30:11 <olsner> is it redundant? I think there's been a number of projects that tried to fix the "have yet to learn", but it didn't help and we *still* "have yet to learn" it
20:30:34 <cpressey> Hm, ok, maybe not. Awkward, though....
20:31:59 <olsner> same goes for most of the other aspects of making software IMO, "software engineering" = lol
20:33:53 <cpressey> olsner: Agreed.
20:37:19 <cpressey> "Better is Worse": your tab completion is so clever, it hangs
20:39:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *coughzshcough*
20:40:13 <cpressey> Ah, let's not forget, all shells suck, too. And editors.
20:40:37 <cpressey> And all wikis
20:40:42 <cpressey> EXCEPT FOR HACKIKI
20:47:45 <Gregor-P> Yesh
20:48:30 <Gregor-P> olsner: C++ totally does not fit my definition, you can't generate truly arbitrary C++ from templates
20:50:41 <Gregor-P> olsner: Oh and by the way, Java and Plof's bytecodes are roughly the same size in terms of total number of instructions, though what those instructions do is of course wildly different.
20:51:12 <cpressey> I think it would be nice to have a pragma or such that says "Try to reduce this expression to a constant at compile time". Instead of something as heavy-handed as defining it as a macro.
20:51:26 <Gregor-P> In fact ... come to think of it, I'm not sure where "few hundred" came from ...
20:52:01 <cpressey> (Of course, you couldn't stop such a pragma from hanging on arbitrary code.)
20:52:39 <olsner> java has 204, so a bit more than just 100, but still "a few hundred" is a huge number of op-codes imo :)
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20:54:09 <Gregor-W> The truthiness about the size of PSL: 88 core opcodes, plus 13 for the C foreign function interface (probably less for other potential FFIs)
20:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, isn't your suggestion just Lisp's macro system wedged into C
20:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ?
20:54:38 <fizzie> CIL (that .NET thing) has 229 opcodes; it's in the same ballpark as the Java VM.
20:55:00 <cpressey> CIL, aka the C# Virtual Machine.
20:55:27 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda, but since the "static" code (choose a better keyword) is C, the behavior would be wildly different.
20:55:43 <Gregor-W> And declaring that Lisp is the answer to all problems is the problem to all answers.
20:55:52 <fizzie> Gregor-W: In the sense that it would be a lot more painful to write, sure.
20:56:12 <Gregor-W> Just depends on how much jelly we're willing to nail to the tree of C to make it easier.
20:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, you'd need to operate on the AST to avoid insanity, really.
20:56:37 <Gregor-W> HEY GUYS this is not a real idea it was just a joke I spat from my brain :P
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20:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And making the AST part of the language standard is surely madness.
20:57:23 <olsner> Gregor-W: a joke? you should know you can't joke about stuff like that here
20:57:34 <Gregor-W> Hey, if somebody wants to write it, sweet.
20:58:02 <cpressey> Beer to Phantom_Hoover.
20:58:53 <olsner> I'm thinking about actually implementing something like that in my language at some point, but it would probably be limited to type functions and use some kind of quasi-quoting
20:59:35 <Gregor-W> I was thinking about implementing that in my language. Then: PLOF! :P
20:59:43 <olsner> of course
20:59:45 <Gregor-W> (Which is to say, that BECAME the language :P )
20:59:58 <cpressey> Doesn't... oh never mind.
21:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what's your language like?
21:00:36 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: somewhat like sugar and spice and all things nice
21:00:55 <olsner> no, it's just a silly little language, nothing to worry about
21:01:31 <Gregor-W> Nothing to see here, move along, move along?
21:01:39 <olsner> yep
21:02:14 <cpressey> Well, I have an idea for a C-like language with explicit malloc and free but provably safe. But it wouldn't be doing this "staticification" thing so far as I know.
21:03:52 <olsner> provably safe against which kinds of abuse?
21:04:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
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21:04:25 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
21:04:28 <cpressey> Um, never executing any machine code that you didn't mean to. Buffer overruns and such.
21:05:01 <Gregor-W> Oh, I figured you meant provably type-safe, never possible to dereference into data of one type while thinking it's another type.
21:05:09 <Gregor-W> If you have this wussy concept of safe, then it might be more feasible.
21:05:39 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:05:59 <cpressey> It's type-safe for a certain type system.
21:06:10 <cpressey> It's not a very large or interesting type system...
21:06:19 <Gregor-P> lawl
21:06:33 <Gregor-P> I <3 that argument
21:07:14 <Gregor-P> If you define the type system such that the language is type-safe, *poof*, type safety! :P
21:09:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:17:34 <cpressey> There are only 3 types: integers, structure of (type*), and pointer to type (which may or may not be valid.) But in that, it should be "type safe", including the property that you can't dereference an invalid pointer.
21:23:26 <Gregor-P> You'll either need whole-program analysis, or for parameters to be marked "freeable"
21:23:48 <Gregor-P> Or, for free to be a no-op :P
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21:27:09 <cpressey> Not sure what you mean about marking parameters "freeable". The other two I know I'm not going to do...
21:29:02 <cpressey> But I don't think I'll be doing that either. Speaking literally, any pointer could be free()d at any time.
21:30:07 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
21:31:58 <Gregor-W> So here's my basic fear and reasoning: struct nasty { void (*nasty)(); }; void evil(struct nasty *n) { free(n); malloc(somegarbageWhichWillNowTakeNsPlace); } void main() { struct nasty *n = malloc(sizeof(struct nasty)); n->nasty = something reasonable; evil(n); n->nasty(); } // how can you possibly avoid this case if you don't statically know whether evil() frees?
21:33:13 <Gregor-W> You can either disallow it, but it generalizes to "make any use of a pointer after aliasing it or using it as a parameter", or ... well, or nothing.
21:33:24 <cpressey> Well, for one, I don't have function pointers. But I suppose that's a theoretically moot point, but give me some time to mentally translate the problem.
21:34:44 <Gregor-W> The function pointer was just to make it immediately obvious, it could be any pointer, maybe even other shtuff.
21:35:10 <olsner> hmm, you'd need to have some kind of ownership tracking and put that in the type system, wouldn't you?
21:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, removing function pointers is if anything a step backwards.
21:35:38 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Well, perhaps I should qualify my use of the word "pointer". Pointers in my language don't map directly to machine pointers. They have some smarts in them.
21:36:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: A step backwards? Define "forwards".
21:36:17 <Gregor-W> Unless those "smarts" are a garbage collector, I doubt it's sufficient :P
21:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, being able to pass functions as arguments is extremely useful.
21:36:38 <cpressey> Gregor-W: K, well, I'm not certain myself. We'll see :)
21:36:52 <Gregor-W> I look forward to it.
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22:11:32 <alise> I have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake.
22:12:00 <cpressey> What of the belief that you have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake?
22:12:05 * cpressey offers alise some cake
22:12:13 <cpressey> Hm? Hm?
22:12:33 <alise> I refuse the cake.
22:13:16 <cpressey> Drat. Well, twas worth a show.
22:13:20 <cpressey> Or a shot
22:15:23 <alise> Yer not the only one with a crazy OS, cpressey. >:|
22:15:30 <alise> I am implanting evil ideas into Phantom_Hoover's head.
22:15:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover!
22:15:43 <cpressey> Sorry, reflex.
22:15:45 <alise> 05:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Ian?
22:15:50 <alise> I can neither confirm nor deny.
22:15:51 <alise> cpressey: wat.
22:16:09 <cpressey> alise: Ask oerjan about Phantom_Hoover's mind control device sometime.
22:16:32 <cpressey> Now what about Ian?
22:16:46 <alise> Ah, right.
22:17:01 <alise> Ian is someone's middle name whose initials are ais and who, on some university, has account number 523 of his initials.
22:17:04 <alise> I will say no more!
22:17:44 <cpressey> That would certainly explain the middle initial, then.
22:23:35 <Gregor-P> But I only have aaaaaaaaaaaais for youuuuuuuuu (why did this pop into my head :P)
22:30:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:53 <olsner> cpressey: the mind-control device that lets Phantom_Hoover control other people's minds or the one that lets us control his mind?
22:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, ask oerjan!
22:41:55 <olsner> is he the resident expert on Phantom_Hoover mind control?
22:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> He's the only one that will talk about it.
22:43:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:06:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:08:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:08:52 <pikhq> INTERNET
23:09:46 <coppro> YAY
23:11:03 <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:11:27 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
23:11:31 <Gregor-W> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg kthx :P
23:11:35 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Client Quit).
23:12:15 <pikhq> ... Did he actually have a script set to ping him for my joining?
23:13:01 <coppro> haha
23:13:11 <Gregor-P> No, I was just too lazy to type that URL on my phone :P
23:13:16 <pikhq> :P
23:13:29 * pikhq shall listen to that after finishing Bohemian Rhapsody
23:13:38 <Gregor-P> It's a long URL! D-8
23:14:12 * pikhq loves having good Internet again
23:14:21 <pikhq> Not just Internet, but *good* Internet.
23:14:35 <pikhq> Deciding to move 4 days before moving is t3h awesome. :P
23:15:05 <alise> pikhq: So are you in Hick Town now, or Hicky Hick Town?
23:15:22 <alise> As opposed to your previous residence, Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick (Hicky Hick)^G_64 Town?
23:15:26 <pikhq> alise: I'm in a suburb of an actual (shock) city!
23:15:39 <alise> Hahahahaha, but seriously now, which is it.
23:15:50 <alise> * [pikhq] lindbohm.freenode.net :Stockholm, Sweden
23:15:52 <alise> Question answered.
23:16:02 <alise> (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.)
23:16:33 <alise> `addquote <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:16:42 <HackEgo> 204|<pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:18:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool, I'm in Oregon.
23:18:23 <coppro> alise: you realize that's just your server?
23:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there anything in Oregon?
23:18:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I DON'T KNOw
23:18:35 <alise> coppro: <alise> (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.)
23:18:42 <coppro> Freenode whois doesn't tell you which server someone's on, just which server location you're on
23:18:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which Oregon?
23:18:49 <alise> Erm.
23:18:52 <alise> I thought you said Portland.
23:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The one in the Us.
23:19:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: My answer, then, is that there is Portland, wherein there is David Parsons.
23:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not know who that is.
23:19:32 <alise> Minimalist grumpy coder extraordinaire!
23:19:37 <pikhq> Gregor-P: So far (4:30), I quite like Opus 13, movement 2, WIP 10.
23:19:39 <alise> Also, that guy whose name I forget.
23:19:47 <cpressey> !*^&*@%@#
23:19:51 <alise> Nick Welch.
23:20:01 <alise> He is also a minimalist grumpy coder but less of both. (The TinyWM author)
23:20:10 <Gregor-P> Also I'm from there!
23:20:31 <pikhq> ... What the hell so many packets at once
23:20:43 <alise> Gregor-P: I was mentioning people worth knowing
23:20:49 <alise> *I was talking about people
23:20:59 <Gregor-P> :'(
23:21:27 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to Gregor-Portlandi.
23:21:30 <alise> Gregor-P: Aww I'm kidding you're adorable like a fluffy teddy bear, now where is the documentation for libavcodec? I can't find any.
23:21:31 <cpressey> Ooh, I be quoted twice in one day.
23:21:32 <Gregor-Portlandi> Foo
23:21:42 <alise> `quote 199
23:21:44 <HackEgo> 199|<Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
23:21:44 -!- Gregor-Portlandi has changed nick to Gregor-P.
23:21:48 <alise> `quote 204
23:21:50 <HackEgo> 204|<pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:21:52 <alise> `quote 203
23:21:57 <HackEgo> 203|<Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
23:22:10 <alise> TWO! TWO!
23:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I have the longest nick on this channel. Me
23:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> s/$/!/
23:22:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:23:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest "pH".
23:23:07 -!- alise has changed nick to pH.
23:23:11 <pH> AWW IT'S TAKEN.
23:23:14 <pH> It is slick though.
23:23:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________.
23:23:18 <PH______________> Ha!
23:23:25 -!- pH has changed nick to alise.
23:23:40 * PH______________ is Very Untrustworthy
23:24:28 -!- PH______________ has changed nick to f.
23:24:39 <f> I cannot believe this isn't taken.
23:24:42 <f> Or maybe...
23:24:44 <alise> It is.
23:24:48 <alise> It's reserved.
23:24:52 <alise> Like almost all single-char names.
23:24:58 <alise> The others are really-old-timers, or staff.
23:25:04 <f> Yes, but I can still take it...
23:25:04 <alise> Mostly staff, and they never use it.
23:25:28 -!- alise has changed nick to pH7.
23:25:41 -!- pH7 has changed nick to alise.
23:26:18 -!- f has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
23:27:58 <alise> Dear God:
23:28:04 <alise> Please supply me with libavcodec documentation.
23:28:05 <alise> <3,
23:28:05 <alise> alise
23:28:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to God.
23:28:18 <alise> I swear it has no official docs.
23:28:22 <alise> Seriously.
23:28:24 <cpressey> Why should it?
23:28:34 <God> alise, my child, I can only manifest for 30 seconds
23:28:39 <God> The docs are at...
23:28:41 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to write.
23:28:46 <alise> cpressey: Because it's the main part of FFmpeg, a super-major software project?
23:28:48 -!- God has changed nick to Guest26718.
23:28:54 <write> I forgot that I own this nick :P
23:29:02 -!- Guest26718 has changed nick to read.
23:29:10 -!- read has changed nick to Moriarty.
23:29:17 <cpressey> alise: OPEN!!!!! SOURCE!!!!!
23:29:28 <alise> cpressey: No dissing ffmpeg. That's Fabrice Bellard you're dissing there.
23:29:33 <alise> You Do Not Diss Fabrice Fucking Bellard.
23:29:43 <pikhq> alise: Fabrice Bellard is not known for comprehensive documentation.
23:29:45 -!- Moriarty has changed nick to grub.
23:29:48 <cpressey> No diss express or implied.
23:29:52 <alise> Yeah, but he isn't them main FFmpeg dev any more :P
23:29:53 <write> Fabrice Fucking Bellard. Mmmmmmmmmmm
23:30:11 -!- write has changed nick to Gregor-P.
23:30:13 <alise> All Gregor's gay fantasies are open source-related and preferably autosexual.
23:30:15 -!- grub has changed nick to Guest19696.
23:30:19 -!- Guest19696 has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
23:30:21 <alise> Oh, or Apollo-related.
23:30:42 <Gregor-P> alise: Not all of them!
23:30:55 <alise> Okay, but you don't tell us about the rest.
23:32:10 <cpressey> alise: Can't I be a zealot about how DARE you ask for documentation on a product where you can read the KODE?? Oh, *can't* I? PulEEZE?
23:32:15 <alise> DOGS that are simultaneously MACHINES.
23:32:25 <alise> Dashing DOG Machines; they are invading our Planet.
23:32:37 <alise> cpressey: Well, with a literate program, yeah, you could. :P
23:33:14 <Gregor-P> That's because the nick list of this channel IS the rest!
23:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, what about theoretical females on the channel?
23:33:56 <alise> They're gay fantasies too.
23:34:05 <alise> Gregor-P: You /could/ just be blatant about it and, say, propose a channel-wide orgy.
23:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there actually any women on this channel?
23:34:49 <alise> No. Used to be.
23:34:49 <Gregor-P> I PROPOSE A CHANNEL-WIDE ORGY however alise is not invited for legal, ethical and personal reasons.
23:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> The only one I can think of seems to be lament.
23:34:59 <alise> Gregor-P: My heart is crushed.
23:35:58 <alise> Gregor-P: You understand if I stalk you down and murder you, right?
23:36:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not if I murder YOU first.
23:37:01 <alise> Cool, everyone in this channel can end up chasing each other and end up inadvertently having Gregor-P's planned orgy.
23:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you're in the forbidden zone for the Device.
23:37:45 <alise> I USE THE DEVICE
23:37:48 <alise> Whatever it is.
23:37:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, lament is not female.
23:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I thought lament's real name was Nikita something?
23:38:56 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, and Nikita is not solely a female name.
23:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
23:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So there are none...
23:39:30 <alise> lol
23:39:35 <alise> lament is very much male :P
23:39:42 <cpressey> lament is one of two other esolangers I've met in person. (The other was BEM.)
23:39:47 <alise> and a certified Crazy Op, so BE CAREFUL
23:39:49 <alise> cpressey: BEM?
23:39:57 <alise> Also, is he as unstable in real life?
23:39:58 <cpressey> BEM = Ben Olmstead, of Malbolge
23:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Crazy Op?
23:40:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He runs this chan.
23:40:08 <alise> Well, not really.
23:40:10 <cpressey> BEM = Bug-Eyed Monster
23:40:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:40:11 <alise> He de jure runs this chan.
23:40:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:40:38 <cpressey> alise: He was very nice in real life. Ask him how unstable *I* am sometime :D
23:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Who's the Mysterious Founder, then?
23:40:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: andreou or someon
23:40:51 <alise> *someone
23:40:53 <alise> I forget the exact name.
23:40:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Aardappel was founder at one point.
23:41:13 <alise> (of FALSE, Sauerbraten fame.)
23:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Who started the channel itself?
23:41:17 <alise> Andreou or someone.
23:41:17 <cpressey> Uh, I would have thought "founder" was an immutable property.
23:41:19 <cpressey> Silly me!
23:41:22 <alise> I forget precisely. It's in the list logs somewhere.
23:41:27 <alise> cpressey: Welcome to ChanServ!
23:41:42 <alise> cpressey: Please abandon your sanity at the door. If you don't have any, get some then abandon it.
23:42:41 <alise> Let's see... channel founding is late 2002...
23:43:05 <alise> Hmm, where has it gone.
23:43:27 <Gregor-P> I think the established point is that if we had a channel-wide orgy, we'd all be on equal footing :P
23:43:30 <alise> HEre we go.
23:43:36 <alise> From: "Al. Andreou" <ee4299@ee.teiath.gr>
23:43:36 <alise> X-X-Sender: <andreou@gin.bar>
23:43:36 <alise> To: <chat@esoteric.sange.fi>
23:43:36 <alise> Subject: [chat] Esolang IRC channel
23:43:42 <alise> He set up the channel on EFnet as #esoterica.
23:43:54 <alise> lament then suggested moving to the Open Projects Network (freenode).
23:44:00 <cpressey> Oooh, X-X-Sender
23:44:08 <alise> andreou then refounded this very channel.
23:44:13 <alise> grep /IRC/: http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4
23:44:16 <alise> *Grep
23:44:30 <alise> Aardappel was a founder at one point, I think; or at least an op.
23:44:58 <alise> Incidentally, even in 2003/2004, lament was talking about how the channel is so dead nowadays. :)
23:45:14 <alise> Of course, the graphs say that activity has been steadily increasing since forever...
23:45:18 <cpressey> Well, I have a grammar for Eightebed. It's 19 lines long. Now I have to implement it.
23:45:30 <olsner> is there a mailing list? or is that dead by now?
23:45:31 <alise> cpressey: I have a feeling Eightebed is not your most thoughtful esolang yet.
23:45:34 <alise> olsner: yes, it exists
23:45:49 <alise> olsner: if you sign up, every few months -- years, sometimes -- you get a quick thread of fun with some nice faces shown
23:45:52 <cpressey> alise: It's not super esoteric, no.
23:45:59 <alise> olsner: the price is a 2000% increase in spam box traffic
23:46:05 <olsner> alise: heh, ok
23:46:05 <alise> olsner: (barely even an exaggeration)
23:46:09 <alise> olsner: It's fine if you have gmail. :P
23:46:21 <alise> cpressey: But it must be ENLIGHTENING!
23:46:48 <alise> Sorry; EIGHTEBEDING!
23:47:09 <cpressey> alise: It's a design in response to Gregor's comments about why a language like Cyclone should have GC. (It's a language with explicit malloc/free, with only a modicum of static analysis, but which is nonetheless safe.)
23:47:35 <alise> I know what Cyclone is.
23:47:44 <alise> Anyway, pah, I hereby copyright Eightebed(C).
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23:47:45 <Gregor-P> s/should/must/
23:47:49 <cpressey> Maybe I should have put "should" in quotes -- see log over past few days for the various views of the parties mentioned.
23:47:49 <alise> Yes, I am copyrighting names now.
23:47:54 <alise> Also trademarking. And registered trademarking.
23:47:59 <alise> Eightebed(C)(R)(TM).
23:48:14 <SgeoN1> I don't like being forced to do things
23:48:23 <cpressey> alise: What must I do to get your permission to use the name Eightebed then?
23:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I have the Device.
23:48:47 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover!
23:48:52 <cpressey> Oh, I see that you do.
23:49:10 <SgeoN1> Wait, is Sgeo here?
23:49:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you see, it follows the inverse square law.
23:49:25 <alise> cpressey: It involves five yaks, a Golden toad that hasn't eaten for five days, five boxes of antique confetti (not stripped of uranium), dye number 90 (blood green), a very confused weasel, and three pieces of A4.15 paper.
23:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Running it on alise would be... ugly.
23:49:43 <SgeoN1> Yes. But Sgeo is AFK. There is only SgeoN1
23:50:04 <SgeoN1> And XUL
23:50:19 <alise> Wow, you reference Mozilla namespace pages before Ghostbusters.
23:50:27 <alise> cpressey: Can you supply these things?
23:50:40 <cpressey> alise: Well then! I may have to consult my lawyer. Who, thankfully, is also my yak husbander.
23:50:52 <SgeoN1> I was aware that the XUL thing was a reference of some sort...
23:51:04 <alise> SgeoN1: You've never seen Ghostbusters?
23:51:09 <alise> Please tell me that you have seen Ghostbusters.
23:51:22 <cpressey> The confetti will be hard to acquire. The weasel's state of confusion, however, should not.
23:51:31 <SgeoN1> Sorry
23:51:45 <alise> SgeoN1: Okay, so that is why you are so strange.
23:51:50 <alise> SgeoN1: I prescribe one dosage of Ghostbusters.
23:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, you haven't seen Ghostbusters?
23:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
23:51:57 <pikhq> SgeoN1: ... You have been living under a rock.
23:51:58 <alise> SgeoN1: Actually. Make that two.
23:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, haven't seen the second one.
23:52:20 <alise> No.
23:52:22 <alise> I just mean two dosages.
23:52:27 <alise> cpressey: I request that all harm is done to animals in the making of this production.
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23:53:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, can we use the Device for doing harm?
23:53:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: /I have no idea what you are talking about./
23:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> No, of course not.
23:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> The Device has a habit of causing that.
23:54:29 <SgeoN1> SCP-055?
23:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe.
23:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I've forgotten myself.
23:55:14 <SgeoN1> Forgotten what?
23:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly.
23:56:38 <pikhq> It is definitely not a cube. Whatever it was I was talking about is definitely not a cube.
23:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, SCP-055 is simply designed so that it slips right off the human mind, while the Device is rather more... proactive.
23:57:02 <alise> It's the world's most evil sex toy.
23:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not originally. It might be repurposable to that end.
23:57:53 <alise> Anyone know how to make the first line of a LaTeX paragraph all in small-caps?
23:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you were the resident LaTeX knowitall.
23:58:44 * SgeoN1 ponders making an epub of the FLR
23:59:56 <alise> SgeoN1: LaTeX the FLR. Oh god, I must do that.
00:00:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nah; know it a little, but...
00:00:24 * cpressey leaves before he finds out what "the FLR" is
00:00:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:00:44 <alise> Agora, sheesh! :P
00:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, FLR?
00:01:16 <alise> pikhq, maybe?
00:01:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Full Logical Ruleset of Agora Nomic.
00:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Full Logical?
00:01:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:01:57 <pikhq> alise: This month's copy of the FLR, I presume?
00:02:11 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
00:02:27 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
00:02:52 <alise> pikhq: Maybe I could AUTOMATE IT. /salivates
00:02:59 <alise> Ooh, provide little page numbers above rule references!
00:03:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's logical because it is. It's full because it includes rule history.
00:03:10 <alise> The Short Logical Ruleset doesn't.
00:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that will be done when I am in charge: all image transforms will be banned.
00:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, all image transforms in the context of photographs of oneself.
00:07:14 <SgeoN1> I was assuming it would be automated
00:07:36 <SgeoN1> Can you make epubs from LaTeX? I'd assume so...
00:08:10 <alise> SgeoN1: Uh, maybe.
00:08:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:08:22 <alise> pikhq: I need typographical opinions! If you are using drop caps, and start a chapter with a quote mark, how to set it?
00:08:30 <SgeoN1> I think there used to be chronological rulesets. I glanced at Agoranomic back in 2003 or 2005 or so.
00:08:37 <alise> Should the drop cap be {``E}? If so, does the `` extend into the margin? (Yes.)
00:08:45 <alise> Or should it be {E}, with a normal `` in the margin preceding it?
00:08:51 <alise> If the latter, how can I achieve this with LaTeX/
00:09:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:10:50 <alise> *LaTeX?
00:10:55 <pikhq> alise: I'm pretty sure it should be drop-cap'd {``E}, with `` extended into the margin.
00:11:04 <pikhq> How you achieve this, I know not.
00:11:10 <alise> pikhq: But then the closing '' looks unbalanced.
00:12:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:13:10 <pikhq> Yeah, but... Everything else is ugly.
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00:13:33 <pikhq> Small quote mark? *ugh*
00:14:29 <alise> I dunno, it could work, if in the margin.
00:14:39 <SgeoN1> I'm guessing I shouldn't be the one to epub-ify the FLR, given my cluelessness when it comes to typography
00:15:49 <SgeoN1> Although it would make me as famous as comex! Ok, not really, but I'm jealous
00:17:45 <alise> It's just a fucking iPhone jailbreak.
00:18:09 <pikhq> And Wii hacking.
00:20:19 <alise> That garners rather less fame.
00:22:12 <coppro> SgeoN1: chroniclor
00:22:41 <SgeoN1> That sounds more like an office
00:22:52 <coppro> it is
00:22:56 <coppro> you should take it
00:22:57 <coppro> and do it
00:22:59 <SgeoN1> Also, CFJs should be epubbed
00:22:59 <coppro> and become famous
00:23:00 * alise indents his first paragraph in latex
00:23:04 <alise> *her
00:23:07 <alise> Why? Because it's only one line.
00:23:42 <SgeoN1> Hmm
00:24:01 <SgeoN1> I'd only be Agoranomic...known
00:24:24 <SgeoN1> My phone has agoranomic as an autocorrect
00:28:29 <alise> Incidentally, Bjorn is the worst poet ever.
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00:38:15 <SgeoN1> Bye
00:38:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:40:07 <coppro> alise: no
00:40:27 <alise> No what?
00:40:32 <coppro> not the worst poet ever
00:40:39 <alise> Oh really?
00:40:39 <coppro> worst poet ever died when Earth exploded obv
00:40:55 <alise> “Incorrigible shopkeeper thou,
00:40:55 <alise> Who cannot even fields plow:
00:40:55 <alise> ‘Dear sir, I must be sure
00:40:55 <alise> Do you frolick and play in manure?’
00:40:55 <alise> Is a question I’m sure you’re oft asked;
00:40:56 <alise> And this divine duty with which I’m tasked?
00:40:58 <alise> To retrieve my stolen Device.”
00:41:18 <alise> coppro: Douglas Adams cannot emulate a truly terrible poet as well as a bad poet can.
00:42:45 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
00:45:00 -!- nooga has joined.
00:45:34 <nooga> who wants to test our home-built 8088 computer?
00:47:44 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/dd54681099 <- the core :D
00:51:38 <alise> I would, if I understood it.
00:51:48 <alise> I'm going to be like Dickens, and release my terrible novels in serial form.
00:52:01 <alise> Here I present the first instalment of A Device Lost, a Bjorn tale!
00:52:02 <alise> http://filebin.ca/rhgbku/bjorn.pdf
00:52:27 <alise> Note: Bjorn has Infinite Personality Disorder.
00:53:26 <nooga> alise: it's almost like oooold IBM PC
00:53:43 <alise> Bjorn would never use a computer he couldn't eat.
00:53:44 <nooga> and that was the actual photo of working processor
00:54:01 <nooga> ah
00:54:15 <nooga> ah, disorder, i see
00:55:13 <nooga> ;P
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01:29:50 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/5cffb3360e behold
01:44:33 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/NtXHf.png
01:56:29 <nooga> :|
01:56:58 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif
01:56:59 <nooga> if i was to build a lisp machine
01:57:15 <nooga> it would probably look exactly like QED
01:58:46 <nooga> oh
01:59:34 <nooga> Gregor: would you like to test this lovely bunch of ICs and wires?
02:00:02 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye).
02:00:09 <Gregor> CAN I TEST IT WITH MY TONGUE?
02:00:23 <nooga> no, but you can ssh the maintenance machine
02:00:34 <nooga> and PROGRAM it
02:00:38 <Gregor> OMG
02:00:43 <Gregor> PROGRAM IT WITH CODEZ
02:00:55 <nooga> or just check out early code samples
02:01:16 <nooga> or just check out motd
02:01:35 <nooga> or just check out
02:01:38 <nooga> or just check
02:01:41 <nooga> or just
02:01:42 <nooga> or
02:01:44 <nooga>
02:03:04 <nooga> anyway
02:05:10 <nooga> ³
02:07:59 <alise> <nooga> if i was to build a lisp machine
02:07:59 <alise> <nooga> it would probably look exactly like QED
02:08:01 <alise> which sense of QED?
02:09:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:09:13 <nooga> QED is the name of that 8088 computer i showed you
02:09:19 <nooga> Quantum Explosion Dynamp
02:09:21 <nooga> Dynamo
02:16:17 <alise> 11:59:59 <cpressey> Haskell doesn't suck.
02:16:19 <alise> SO WRONG.
02:18:35 <alise> 12:23:05 <fizzie> Gregor-P: re recursiveC: DOUBLE COMPILE. (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w and related)
02:18:41 <alise> Gosh. It's compiled twice.
02:19:29 <nooga> wtf
02:20:32 <nooga> recursiveC?
02:21:57 <alise> See http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.08.02.
02:22:19 <Gregor> RecursiveC is a hypothetical C-based language with "static" parts that are bits of C code that output C which replaces the original code. Run those static bits over and over 'til you reach fixed-point, then voila! You could implement OO in header files :P
02:23:26 <nooga> PHP?
02:24:08 <Gregor> ... huh?
02:25:07 <nooga> nothing :D
02:26:40 <alise> PHP is a dangerous drug.
02:27:13 <nooga> i hate it
02:32:29 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cwep1/the_neverending_finite_loop/c0vt9vf?context=4
02:32:34 <alise> Badum-tish
02:38:32 <alise> Infi-Loop I always use...
02:38:33 <alise> x = 1;
02:38:33 <alise> while(x > 0) { if (x < 2) x++; else x--; }
02:38:33 <alise> --reddit
02:38:38 <alise> This person has never even considered while(1).
02:44:49 <Sgeo> Surely that poster was joking?
02:49:17 <alise> I hope so.
02:51:30 <alise> I have to be up in a bit less than 6 hours.
02:51:33 <alise> I should bed soon.
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03:36:28 <alise> Goodnight.
03:36:33 <zzo38> Goodday.
03:36:36 <alise> Bye.
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03:38:33 <zzo38> I want to design a font using METAFONT (once I figure out how; neither this channel nor the #LaTeX channel was of much help), http://sprunge.us/OiNh is that a good encoding of list of chaacters to be included?
03:39:08 <zzo38> I don't exactly know how some of these should look though
03:39:33 -!- cal153 has joined.
03:39:56 <zzo38> That is, other than a few obvious ones, which might be taken from Computer Modern and then changed a bit
03:40:06 -!- comex has joined.
03:40:31 <zzo38> If there is blackboard bold, does that mean somebody will invent whiteboard bold?
03:40:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:40:50 <zzo38> OK
03:41:16 <pikhq> All of Unicode.
03:41:18 <pikhq> And do it well.
03:41:26 <zzo38> I especially don't know the control graphics
03:42:01 <zzo38> pikhq: I can't do all of unicode, that is a lot. I only want a subset, which might however include some things that are not part of unicode
03:43:00 <zzo38> (I don't know if unicode has Greek blackboard bold, for one thing, and I don't know if these control graphics would be the same as unicode, my idea was using some special symbols to represent these control graphics instead of the way unicode does it)
03:43:46 <zzo38> If you might have noticed or not, the control graphic numbers are the same as the lowercase letters for those codes in a C program, for the ones that are usable in C strings.
03:44:10 <zzo38> ('\e' is GNU C only, but I included it so that it can be used with GNU C)
03:45:40 <zzo38> Some of the things in WEBMATH are already included in AMS, but I want one usable with Plain TeX and only one font for all the extra stuff
03:46:43 <zzo38> How many codes does Unicode have these days, anyways?
03:48:16 <pikhq> Tons.
03:48:34 <zzo38> But how many? One million?
03:48:38 <pikhq> Some 75% of it is Han Unified Ideographs...
03:48:50 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
03:48:59 <pikhq> 107,361 as of October 2009.
03:49:07 <zzo38> OK
03:49:08 * SgeoN1 is going to eat his first hamburger soon
03:49:21 <pikhq> SgeoN1: ... Your *first* hamburger?
03:49:28 <SgeoN1> My dad says I've eaten hamburgers before, but I don't remember
03:49:31 <pikhq> And you're in... America.
03:49:35 <zzo38> SgeoN1: When are you going to eat your first "burgerham"?
03:49:52 <SgeoN1> My dad has been paranoid about mad cow disease
03:49:55 <coppro> uh, what?
03:50:05 <zzo38> OK, now I understand (I think)
03:50:05 <coppro> Unicode has 246,943 assigned codes
03:50:42 <zzo38> coppro: When do you ever think it will reach one million if it ever does?
03:50:57 <SgeoN1> Also, it's not going to be in hamburger buns, just slices of bread ;(
03:51:06 <SgeoN1> Erm, :(
03:51:14 <Gregor> Sgeo: Tell us EVERY DETAIL of your FIRST HAMBURGER EVAR
03:51:19 <pikhq> SgeoN1: How do you *avoid* eating hamburgers in the USA?
03:51:20 <coppro> zzo38: long time
03:51:40 <pikhq> This is a bit like avoiding seeing a fat person.
03:52:34 <oerjan> <coppro> Freenode whois doesn't tell you which server someone's on, just which server location you're on
03:53:00 <oerjan> you're on jordan.freenode.net in france. hth.
03:53:37 <zzo38> What I wanted to do is make a WEBMATH font (I might need help in many different ways), and then add a option in the next version of Enhanced CWEB to make it use this font, and then instead of overtyping the \ and n on each other it can use the TYPEWRITER CONTROL GRAPHIC NEW LINE OR LINE FEED character from the WEBMATH font.
03:53:43 <coppro> oerjan: huh
03:53:48 <coppro> maybe seven doesn't have that feature
03:54:01 <oerjan> yeah that was about when it changed
03:54:06 <zzo38> The WHOIS does tell you.
03:54:27 <zzo38> On the 312 line.
03:54:35 <coppro> zzo38: yes, but for a while (probably on the old ircd) it would always reply with the server you were on, not the server the target of the request was on
03:54:48 <zzo38> coppro: Well, it works now (at least for me)
03:54:52 <coppro> yeah, me too
03:55:21 <coppro> pikhq: also, CJK ideographs fall just short of 75%
03:55:24 <oerjan> i vaguely recall it replied with irc.freenode.net for a while
03:55:36 <pikhq> coppro: Aaaaw.
03:55:51 <pikhq> coppro: Throw in kana and bopomofo, and what do you get? :P
03:56:16 <coppro> probably 75% :D
03:56:24 <Gregor> I posted this as my Facebook status: "I'm unhappy that UTF-8 can't be extended indefinitely. Eight-byte UTF-8 wouldn't break too many invariants, since the value 255 never appears in conforming standard UTF-8, but nine-byte UTF-8 would almost unavoidably create ambiguities with two-byte UTF-8 :(. 42 payload bits is NOT ENOUGH. When we have to tell our new alien overlords that we can't fit their language into our encoding sch
03:56:24 <Gregor> eme, they're gonna be PISSED."
03:56:27 <Gregor> Two people have "liked" it.
03:56:34 <Gregor> I'm quite sure that neither of them have any idea wtf I'm talking about :P
03:56:35 <coppro> There are according to wikipedia 74384 ideographs and 107361 characters
03:56:54 <coppro> Gregor: extending UTF-8 is easily done
03:57:12 <Gregor> To eight bytes, yes. To nine bytes, no.
03:58:01 <coppro> oh, you care about the invariants
03:58:06 <coppro> right, yeah, you're stuck at 7
03:58:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Nine bytes is a TRIVIAL extension. We deprecate UTF-8 and move on to UTF-G_64.
03:58:21 <Gregor> Well, yeah. If we're gonna break all the invariants, what's the point :P
03:58:30 <pikhq> >:D
03:58:40 <coppro> actually, nah, it's easy
03:58:59 <coppro> 0b11111111 says that the next byte says how many more bytes are part of the same character :D
03:59:09 <coppro> (and they all start with 0b10
03:59:38 <zzo38> That way you can extend to more than nine bytes, then.
03:59:58 <Mathnerd314> and 0 means to look again
04:00:07 <Mathnerd314> at the next 2 bytes
04:00:09 <coppro> yeah
04:00:16 <coppro> you can run the sequence up indefinitely
04:00:20 <Gregor> coppro: Hmmmm, you've stuffed another layer of encoding into UTF-8, awesome X-d
04:00:22 <Gregor> *X-D
04:02:57 <zzo38> In the 7-bit WEBMATH I don't have anything in 0x6D 0x6F 0x70 0x71, and in 8-bit I don't have anything in the high codes, but if you can make suggestion I can write it in
04:03:55 <zzo38> Or if anything I already have duplicates Computer Modern, I should also change it
04:04:15 <coppro> WEBMATH?
04:05:28 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I thought lament's real name was Nikita something?
04:05:33 <zzo38> coppro: I want to invent a font called WEBMATH and can be used in TeX and METAFONT
04:05:34 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/OiNh
04:05:44 <oerjan> famous hot russian female: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B0628-0015-035,_Nikita_S._Chruchstschow.jpg
04:05:55 <zzo38> There is the list, you can see some spaces are not filled in yet
04:07:14 <coppro> how do you use a font in METAFONT
04:07:18 <zzo38> (I know some of the characters duplicate ones in AMS, but I want this to be able to be used without AMS)
04:07:28 <coppro> also, I do not support this project
04:07:46 <zzo38> coppro: You can write the codes for it, and then write other codes to make it load into TeX and other programs
04:07:54 <zzo38> That is how you use a font in METAFONT.
04:07:57 <coppro> fonts that do not respect Unicode should be shot
04:08:16 <SgeoN1> It was eh
04:08:36 <zzo38> coppro: That makes sense in most cases to use Unicode fonts, but TeX isn't Unicode based, so instead we put 256 characters in one font
04:09:06 <coppro> why aren't you using iTeX yet?
04:09:19 <zzo38> iTeX?
04:10:09 <myndzi> coppro's method seems like it would be rather big
04:10:23 <zzo38> I don't want to use iTeX, I want to use Plain TeX
04:10:25 <myndzi> i think by the time you get up to 9 bytes another encoding method would be preferable for efficiency reasons
04:10:49 <coppro> myndzi: THINK OF THE CHILDREN
04:10:52 <myndzi> ..on the other hand, if you're using 9 bytes to represent one character, i guess another byte is having less of an effect at that point than it would be if you were using only two
04:13:27 <pikhq> zzo38: XeTeX is Unicode based. Suck it.
04:14:12 <zzo38> I looked at the iTeX description, and it completely makes nonsense!
04:14:39 <zzo38> pikhq: Can XeTeX work with Plain TeX?
04:14:49 <pikhq> Yes.
04:15:49 <zzo38> What differences does XeTeX have from normal TeX?
04:17:00 <pikhq> It uses Unicode as its encoding, it supports OpenType fonts directly, and it outputs to PDF.
04:18:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Then that means I can't use DVI with it?
04:18:58 <zzo38> Does it also mean METAFONT can't be used with it?
04:19:33 <pikhq> It also supports METAFONT.
04:19:37 <pikhq> It doesn't do DVI.
04:19:42 <pikhq> DVI is an archaicism, anyways.
04:21:56 <zzo38> I think I still prefer the normal TeX system.
04:22:29 <Sgeo> What does LaTex use? Does it fit over any of these.. thingies, or is it TeX-only?
04:22:59 <coppro> btw, if you haven't seen, it, you need to watch http://river-valley.tv/media/conferences/tug-2010/Don-Knuth/
04:23:48 <zzo38> Wikipedia article for XeTeX says it uses LaTeX
04:24:35 <zzo38> I learned some things about METAFONT, I think it is not a bad program for designing fonts, however I cannot get it to work
04:24:36 * Sgeo is now 20 different types of confused
04:24:46 <Sgeo> Soon I'll be confused tracking all the ways I'm confused!
04:24:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: LaTeX is a set of macros for TeX.
04:32:35 * Sgeo terminally fails at references
04:32:42 <zzo38> One thing I like about Plain TeX opposed to LaTeX, is that in Plain TeX I can run "tex" only once and still have all cross-references and everything correct, with no auxiliary files.
04:42:08 <comex> well, I like Plain Text.
04:43:38 <zzo38> Why did they make LaTeX require multiple passes and a separate program to make index, and so on?
04:46:27 <zzo38> What do I need to make METAFONT work on MiKTeX?
04:47:19 <coppro> have you watched the video yet?
04:47:56 <zzo38> The video won't play
04:48:05 <coppro> :(
04:48:16 <coppro> I think it's Flash
05:11:37 <zzo38> I got METAFONT to work now, but it still doesn't work in interactive mode?
05:13:12 <zzo38> Can fonts with METAFONT be converted to other formats, in case some other programg uses other formats?
05:18:50 <Sgeo> It's possible to make ePub files by hand!
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05:19:08 <Sgeo> Of course, I won't, but I will attempt to make an automated epub creator for Agoran Rulesets
05:19:22 <Sgeo> Can ePubs reference other books? I doubt it, but that would be awesome for the Agoran stuff
05:19:33 <Sgeo> Crosslinks between CFJs and the FLR
05:20:20 <Sgeo> "If your book is in the HTML format, you can use Book Glutton to convert it to ePub"
05:20:46 <coppro> better idea
05:20:51 <coppro> let's make a SVG version
05:21:05 <coppro> that way we can make it as small as we want it ;)
05:21:20 <Sgeo> ePub will be very useful to me soon
05:21:30 <coppro> why?
05:21:50 <Sgeo> Getting an eReader soon hopefully
05:21:52 <coppro> ah
05:22:20 <Sgeo> Hmm, def. want custom thing for the FLR... there's a Table of Contents thing in the spec, apparently
05:22:23 <coppro> (I find it funny that we as a people are now starting to move away from PDF because it does exactly what it was designed to do)
05:26:29 <Sgeo> BookGlutton costs $5 :(
05:26:31 <Sgeo> No ty
05:27:36 <Sgeo> Hmm, if I got a Nook, would I be able to have it automatically retrieve the latest version of the ePub somehow?
05:28:48 * Sgeo vaguely wonders how far back RTRR goes
05:28:55 <Sgeo> 1 ePub for each RTRR!
05:37:41 <Sgeo> When was coppro playing Mafia?
05:37:51 <Sgeo> With people I don't recognize?
05:37:55 <coppro> huh?
05:38:09 <Sgeo> Found a text file wolfgame.txt
05:38:12 <Sgeo> Looks like an IRC log
05:38:22 <Sgeo> Hmm, by that name, I guess you call it Werewolves
05:38:36 <coppro> where?
05:38:56 <Sgeo> I have no idea
05:39:08 <Sgeo> I can list names of the participants though
05:39:24 <coppro> how can you have found a file but not know where you found it?
05:39:24 <Sgeo> modargo, Narrator, Crispy-, coppro, Coboney, Leecifer
05:39:29 <coppro> oh!
05:39:35 <coppro> that was #wolf of EFNet
05:39:52 <Sgeo> Most importantly: Why do I have a log of this?
05:40:08 <Sgeo> It was in my Downloads folder...
05:40:42 <coppro> maybe I linked it?
05:41:00 <coppro> can you send me a copy? Maybe there is something special about it
05:42:20 <Sgeo> Erm, email it to you?
05:42:37 <coppro> sure
05:44:01 <Sgeo> Sent
05:44:23 <zzo38> PDF has too many stupid features in my opinion
05:44:50 <coppro> thanks
05:44:53 <coppro> hm... I remember that game
05:44:58 <coppro> nothing particularly remarkable about it
05:45:23 <coppro> no clue why you'd have a log
05:47:07 <zzo38> Plain TeX is much more better than LaTeX why don't you believe it?
05:47:58 * Sgeo just wants to make epubs
05:49:17 <zzo38> What is epubs?
05:49:53 <Sgeo> A file format usable by most ereaders
05:49:57 <Sgeo> *epub
05:50:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, the Map of Agora isn't exactly reflowable
05:51:14 <zzo38> How does epub work?
05:51:56 <Sgeo> *shrugs*
05:53:27 <zzo38> Is it like HTML or like PDF or DVI or like bitmap picture files, or how does it work?
05:55:33 <Sgeo> More like HTML than like bitmaps
05:55:52 <Sgeo> Very much like HTML, I think, actuallhy
05:56:07 <zzo38> What is its feature support, colors, fonts, printout, etc?
05:57:05 <Sgeo> No clue
06:02:34 <zzo38> Perhaps I can make Icoruma->ePub, even, if I want to, or if anyone else wants to write a converter program for Icoruma documents. So, it would be useful if you wanted to write the rules for a role-playing game on ePub
06:11:49 <zzo38> Has anyone implemented any variant of INTERCAL in TeX?
06:25:14 <Sgeo> zzo38, what do you have against Python?
06:25:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: I just don't like it much. C is more better in my opinion.
06:26:02 <zzo38> I have nothing against Python, though.
06:26:14 <Sgeo> This user is made out of userboxes
06:27:20 <zzo38> Are you looking at my Wikipedia?
06:27:40 <Sgeo> Yes
06:28:18 <zzo38> OK
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06:28:34 <zzo38> (Feel free to change it if you don't like it; it is a wiki page and anyone can edit it)
06:29:02 <Sgeo> Why would I change it? It's a page about you!
06:29:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because you found a mistake in it, perhaps?
06:29:48 <zzo38> Or to make improvement?
06:30:09 <zzo38> Is there a userbox for TeX?
06:30:11 <Sgeo> I think the only mistake that could be present in a page of userboxes is a syntactical failure to include a userbox properly
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06:35:43 <zzo38> Feel free to add, remove, change, and improve. Just don't deny anyone else these same rights, including the right to distribute and use it. That is all I ask. If you want to call it your own, go ahead. If you want to sell it and earn a lot of money from it, that is OK, too. Just don't deny other people these same rights.
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06:42:18 <zzo38> There is userboxes related to LaTeX, but not for Plain TeX.
06:42:23 <zzo38> Maybe I should add some
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10:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
10:15:05 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: eval ( 4 ( atan 1)) ( if ( equal? ( 3 4))? i
10:15:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
10:15:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
10:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, don't go into programming.
10:16:20 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: im no good at it too, fnord... um... 2 lectures or so, which one should i install in /usr/ lib
10:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, exactly.
10:19:02 <Sgeo_> Also pondering making an epub of all of the CFJs in Murphy's db
10:19:45 * ais523 wonders why you'd want to install a lecture in /usr/lib
10:19:51 <ais523> INTERCAL object-orientation reference?
10:21:43 <Sgeo_> Also, considering epub'ing the SLR instead of the FLR
10:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, answer ais' question.
10:24:14 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: java isn't too bad.' this is valid.
10:24:35 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, well, I'm sure ais would agree...
10:24:47 <ais523> it's not as bad as people make it out to be
10:25:05 <ais523> although it's far from the ideal programming language
10:25:16 * Sgeo_ wonders if it might be better to programmatically create DocBook stuff
10:25:28 <Sgeo_> Since there's an easy DocBook -> EPUB converter
10:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, are you there?
10:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot?
10:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> FUNGOT!
10:29:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: fungot has an anti-spam thing, it won't respond to the same person too many times in a row
10:29:55 <fungot> ais523: like a caged environment for innocent little newbie schemers to keep them in mind :) ttyl i'm going to
10:30:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate you, fungot.
10:30:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: fnord wanted dialog...... huh......really? oh a net address! oh, the question needs to be
10:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, is that so?
10:35:59 <fizzie> ^style fisher
10:35:59 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
10:36:10 <fizzie> fungot: Maybe you could be a bit more casual there.
10:36:10 <fungot> fizzie: exactly and and the cases they deal with are usually very depressing
10:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell is npviewer.bin?
10:38:13 * Sgeo_ depresses fungot
10:38:13 <fungot> Sgeo_: you hit on a really like annoying cliff hanger like not like you go to the next place and then the
10:38:38 <ais523> hmm, ingenious
10:38:43 <Sgeo_> Well, we know fungot is a teen girl
10:38:43 <fungot> Sgeo_: you know i'm making dinner table or something you know and and
10:38:47 <ais523> a sentence talking about a really annoying cliff hanger
10:38:58 <ais523> and then stopping just before it explains what the cliff hanger is
10:39:27 <ais523> I think that's the fungot version of "how do you keep an idiot in suspense?"
10:39:27 <fungot> ais523: ( ( fitness and health)) i've ( ( wanted)) to talk to you again laughter but be careful seriously oh that's wonderful
10:39:29 <Sgeo_> [ Directed by M. Night Shyamalan ]
10:40:41 <fizzie> npviewer.bin is usually Flash.
10:40:50 <fizzie> It's a "Netscape Plugin", after all.
10:41:33 <fizzie> (I think it's nspluginwrapper's thing around the 32-bit Flash on a x86-64 system.)
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10:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, OK.
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11:27:10 <nooga> how does fungot work? it takes sentences from the logs?
11:27:10 <fungot> nooga: it just seems like you know like
11:30:04 <ais523> nooga: it has a bunch of data; IRC logs is its current data source
11:30:09 <ais523> but you can set it to other things too
11:30:11 <ais523> ^style agora
11:30:11 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
11:30:28 <ais523> see, now it's drawing from current and historical rulesets of Agora
11:30:31 <ais523> fungot: say something
11:30:31 <fungot> ais523: a frankenstein monster, and the minimum hand size shall be four classes of cards exist than its own content, and
11:30:45 <ais523> and it looks for common words at different places in the data source
11:30:56 <ais523> and jumps from bit to bit as long as there are words in common
11:31:01 <ais523> so the result makes sense locally, but not globally
11:31:35 <ais523> IIRC it was optbot which quoted random literal lines from logs, rather than merging many together like fungot does
11:31:35 <fungot> ais523: but after taking all other rules, or
11:32:19 <ais523> nooga: is that a clear enough explanation?
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12:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Emacs removed all of their yows but one for copyright reason,
12:07:17 <Phantom_Hoover> s/,/s/
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12:24:13 <ais523> hmm, I'm beginning to think that this department has trouble tracking personell
12:24:16 <ais523> *personnel
12:24:21 <ais523> first, they seem to forget I exist
12:24:40 <ais523> now, we get an email saying "if you notice someone new working in your office, send round an email to introduce them"
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12:44:51 <ais523> wow, after randomly browsing reddit, I just had a really evil idea
12:45:10 <ais523> what you do is, you decide that you want a class that contains, say, run() and eval() methods
12:45:31 <ais523> so, you get your OO language (say Java) to load every class it can access, and inspect it to see if it has those methods
12:45:39 <ais523> and if it does, you instantiate it and then run the methods
12:45:45 <ais523> what could possibly go wrong?
12:45:55 <ais523> (Bonus: this is actually how object orientation works in CLC-INTERCAL)
12:46:19 <ais523> (although at least it checks whether there's only one appropriate class, first)
12:50:42 <fizzie> Can you sensibly enumerate classes in Java, though? Reflection via a ClassLoader lets you look things up by name, but I'm unsure about listing them.
12:51:12 <ais523> just try all possible legal identifiers in sequence
12:51:30 <fizzie> Ah, the brute-force method.
12:52:31 <ais523> alternatively, you could use a bit of knowledge about how the default ClassLoader works, and just look through the entire filesystem to get the names of things that could be potentially loaded
12:52:33 <ais523> and use those
12:53:47 <fizzie> I remember looking for a "list all classes you so far know about" method in java.lang.Package, but there wasn't any; even though there's a static java.lang.Package.getPackages() which asks the ClassLoader to list all packages it has seen.
12:58:44 <fizzie> The AI competition game GUI app looks for all .jar files in the current directory and its immediate subdirectories; for each .jar it peeks at the manifest for metadata that indicates a bot. I didn't really want people to have to fiddle with classpaths or so if they wanted to try out a bot-.jar they had.
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13:14:24 <fizzie> Speaking of fungot, the explanation up there is conceptually speaking feasible, although if you want to pick some nits, technically speaking it's not "jumping from bit to bit", but instead it collects frequency counts for all n-tuples of consecutive words (where n is about 3 or 4 or so), and then just decides next word randomly based on the frequencies of all (say) 4-tuples where first three words match the current context.
13:14:24 <fungot> fizzie: " first-class person becomes a registered player, by announcing that e insists. a player is ineligible to
13:16:56 <ais523> yep, it comes to the same thing, but it's a rather different implementation from what I suggested
13:18:01 <fizzie> Of course everyone can just take a peek at the sources to immediately see the implementation strategy.
13:18:34 <fizzie> I think there's even a comment in there.
13:19:04 <fizzie> Hmn, it seems that the comment simply says "pickword:", which might be a bit ambiguous.
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17:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Nothing is happening. fungot, rectify this.
17:06:40 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: any order issued, the date of the period of
17:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Who made his style boring?
17:09:16 <fizzie> ais523 is the one who agorafied him.
17:09:19 <fizzie> ^style europarl
17:09:19 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:09:33 <fizzie> fungot: Now you're the definition of excitement and unborigness.
17:09:35 <fungot> fizzie: the impressive number of projects in the energy efficiency measures have not halted, still less for commercial or economic reasons. veritable ' dictatorship' by the stock exchange lists of all european agriculture systems and not just for those in financial difficulty. we hope that, because trafficking in human beings
17:10:34 <fizzie> fungot: Who's trafficking in human beings? Is this some sort of preliminary stage of the coming robot revolution?
17:10:35 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, first i should like to thank the commissioner for the attention they are given recognition on this level. we welcome the consideration of environmental integration than on other reform aspects. we are not the guilty party. for those engaging in these activities are carried on in denmark, as jens-peter bonde emphasised, and other elements as well.
17:11:02 <fizzie> He sounds *just* like a politician this way.
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17:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, what activities are carried out in Denmark?
17:15:47 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i declined to vote in favour of the proposal on biofuels, which i cannot accept amendments nos 11, 15, 26, 28, 33, 36 to 43 and, in accordance with the compromise that we reached, fortunately, we were discussing a different proposal and this report, and a rights guarantee system. we will not be the case but they must be built upon in vienna, so that we can avoid a number of consumer protection and to preserving
17:17:03 <oerjan> the danish human trafficking, obviously
17:17:12 <fizzie> fungot: Is something rotten in the state of Denmark?
17:17:14 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would add the injury of indifference to the well-being of patients suffering from inherited diseases have been told here that national legislation on pay, and those that follow will help us to ensure that there is room for the benefit of the alcohol market is satisfactorily addressed by this proposal for codecision is the result of the way there. turning to another important european union decision: enla
17:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, what about enla?
17:19:10 <fungot> si.zb: mr president, commissioner, the aid procedure. my concern, personally, i believe, on the basis of the international conventions, needs for protection and family reunification.
17:19:31 <fizzie> Ooh, you met a bug.
17:19:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, no, that's my true name
17:20:11 <fizzie> Oh, okay; then it's just the usual clairvoyancy thing.
17:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It isn't part of any mortal character encoding.
17:22:27 <fizzie> "93 9f 97 84 82 95 9b 8b 99 73 98 69 8d 9a 9e 2e 7a 92 88 91 8c 62"; that's not a very obvious sequence of bytes.
17:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, so, what else do you know?
17:23:57 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would like to congratulate mr blokland on the classification of european export shares to asia as a proportion of publicly financed social and economic difficulties there, its crisis of political confidence and its restrictions of democratic freedom, which only brings together members of the new millennium
17:25:45 <fizzie> All hail Mr. Blokland; sounds like a LEGO thing.
17:25:56 <oerjan> another danish scheme
17:26:29 <oerjan> financing asian social and economic difficulties
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17:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> fungot, what are Denmark planning?
17:28:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: in its short justification, the committee on budgetary control, we should be penalising employers who shamelessly exploit immigrants who have no desire to hand over the issue of comitology. i welcome the fact that all this may bring to bear on those principally responsible for the 500 000 protesters were perfectly aware of the problem demands that we close our eyes to the facts.
17:29:43 <oerjan> i note that the fnords are not visible in this style - clearly this shows that this _is_ an illuminati plot
17:30:16 <oerjan> or well, several
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17:31:07 <cpressey> A confluence of illuminati ploti?
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17:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, isn't -orum singular genitive?
17:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Or perhaps dative...
17:47:59 <oerjan> no, plural
17:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> 'k
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18:04:16 <cpressey> OK, so I have a parser for Eightebed done, and the beginnings of a type checker. I just need to finish that, extend it to do simple validity analysis, write the translator (to C), and write the runtime for the translated code (in C)...
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18:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> CPS is very similar to the standard x86 calling convention...
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18:09:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: ? The standard x86 calling convention uses the stack IIRC...
18:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it uses an address rather than a continuation, of course.
18:11:55 <coppro> cactus stack obv
18:12:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, it's more that *call stacks* are very similar to CPS.
18:12:34 <pikhq> :)
18:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, "similar" is commutative, isn't it?
18:12:56 <cpressey> Call stacks are crippled continuations
18:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, that was my point.
18:15:10 <pikhq> cpressey: Except when you add stronger stack manipulation.
18:15:45 <pikhq> (in particular things like stack-swapping coroutines...)
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18:23:47 <cpressey> Granted. But I would say even the fanciest stack arrangement limits the power of continuations.
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18:28:25 <pikhq> cpressey: Not really. One can use each stack as a continuation. :P
18:29:11 <pikhq> (this is most useful for the setup provided by getcontext et al, where each new stack has, at its bottom, the start of a function that will jump to a different stack...)
18:29:51 <cpressey> pikhq: OK, fine. Two stacks and you have a Turing tape anyway, right.
18:30:10 <pikhq> Correct.
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18:31:14 <cpressey> But then if you have a Turing machine, who needs functions or continuations anyway? See, this is not at all what I was getting at...
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18:32:13 <pikhq> :P
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18:36:42 <Gregor-P> Moo
18:56:21 <cpressey> I see the Python debugger is just as much a debugger as all other debuggers.
18:56:25 <cpressey> (Bugger!)
19:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you do the empty set in TeX?
19:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Or union, for that matter.
19:03:25 <oerjan> \emptyset, \cup or \bigcup . iirc.
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19:04:35 <zzo38> I think it is $\emptyset$ for empty set symbol in TeX?
19:05:05 <zzo38> (I don't know if it is different for LaTeX, or for AMS-LaTeX)
19:05:46 <zzo38> I checked now, it is $\emptyset$
19:08:30 <Sgeo_> Wait, what's the difference between $\emptyset$ and \emptyset ?
19:08:43 <zzo38> If you are not in math mode you have to enter math mode first
19:09:14 <zzo38> Otherwise you would normally use it inside of a mathematical equation, so put $ around the entire equation instead of only around the \emptyset part
19:11:15 <oerjan> "many people prefer the look of AMS's \varnothing ... to that of LaTeX's \emptyset.
19:11:18 <oerjan> "
19:11:36 <zzo38> I suppose if you are using AMS you can use \varnothing instead
19:11:57 <oerjan> (from http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-a4.pdf which is _too_ comprehensive, took me ages to find the last one)
19:14:13 <zzo38> I have idea to add a few additional commands into TeX \rawread \rawwrite \boxpush \boxpop \boxenqueue \boxdequeue \tokpush \tokpop \tokenqueue \tokdequeue
19:15:05 <oerjan> that document seems to use LaTeX2e as the lowest common denominator, so nothing about just TeX specified
19:16:36 <cpressey> AMSTeX is the only TeX that matters
19:16:42 <cpressey> (Just trying to start a fight)
19:17:05 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't think so, there are many kinds that are used, they all matter
19:17:41 <cpressey> I don't care about TeX - I just want a sed that handles UTF-8 properly
19:18:03 <zzo38> cpressey: O, perhaps you can modify sed to do that, if you want it like that?
19:18:26 <cpressey> I'd sooner write a Perl script to do the replacements for me
19:18:54 <cpressey> Or Python, considering I have an idea of how Python's Unicode support works, but know nothing about Perl;s.
19:20:23 <cpressey> Wait, it does. I was just writing a bad regexp previously. Heheh.
19:20:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://omega.albany.edu:8008/Symbols.html is a bit more maintainable :D
19:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Why the :8008?
19:21:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Could they not get 80
19:21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> s/$/?/
19:21:20 <fizzie> cpressey: My sed doesn't handle UTF-8 properly in the sense that it'd understand multibyte sequences to be one character, but you can still do some simple operations even while it just thinks as sequences of bytes.
19:21:28 <oerjan> how the heck should i know, i just googled "tex symbols"
19:22:41 <fizzie> Wait, sed at home actually seems to be locale-aware. Freaky! It must've been some other sed that didn't do it right. (Or maybe I, too, wrote a bad regexp.)
19:22:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the date "11 Jan 95" _could_ be a hint
19:23:29 <fizzie> "echo ä | sed -e 's/./x/'" => "x"; "echo ä | LC_CTYPE=C sed -e 's/./x/'" => "x¤". It certainly does locale-specificity.
19:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The union of any set with the empty set is equal to the original set, isn't it?
19:23:50 <oerjan> yes
19:24:46 <cpressey> love the favicon on that page
19:24:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also, \cup is used as a binary operator, while \bigcup is generally used for indexed stuff, like the sigma sum symbol
19:25:12 <zzo38> More addition commands into TeX \pushmode \popmode \undefhandler
19:25:24 <oerjan> it's like + vs. \sum
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19:30:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: incidentally with the table called "delimiters" iirc you can put \left or \right commands before some of them to make them expand in size. e.g. matrices can be put between \left[ and \right]
19:30:51 <zzo38> Even more additional commands into TeX \foreach \alltolerate \readglue \readmuglue \processglue \processmuglue
19:31:51 <cpressey> glue?
19:32:12 <Gregor-P> \notolerate \krystalnacht \myhead
19:32:18 <zzo38> cpressey: Do you use TeX?
19:32:34 <oerjan> or you could use \left( and \right) as parentheses if your formula is so big the usual ones become awkward
19:32:34 <zzo38> Gregor-P: And what would \krystalnacht and \myhead mean?
19:32:54 <cpressey> zzo38: I tried using LaTeX, once, years ago. Safe to say I've forgotten almost everything about it.
19:33:22 <oerjan> *kristallnacht
19:34:04 <Gregor-P> oerjan: Thanks, I knew that was all wrong but can't check on my phone :P
19:34:16 <zzo38> cpressey: Maybe in LaTeX you don't need to deal with glue. But Plain TeX uses glue values, which means the natural length, as well as how much it is allowed to be shrink and how much it is allowed to be long, for inserting spaces, such as spaces between words in lines of paragraph text.
19:34:58 <cpressey> This must be why I've never "progressed beyond" HTML.
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19:35:44 <oerjan> zzo38: LaTeX has various length designations, some expandable, some not
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19:36:20 <zzo38> cpressey: Perhaps you could try using TeX for some thing one time, I use it and it works.
19:36:48 <zzo38> (And if you want to type the rules of a role playing game, you might use Icoruma and then compile Icoruma files into other formats, such as TeX and HTML)
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19:37:45 <cpressey> Um,
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19:38:30 <zzo38> (Although I prefer Plain TeX, but different people might prefer LaTeX or other packages)
19:38:43 <cpressey> zzo38's wikipedia user page just ate my brain
19:39:04 <oerjan> zzo38: i suspect most non-programmers will find TeX to require too much handling of details
19:39:12 <zzo38> cpressey: O NO I DIDN'T KNOW WIKIPEDIA PAGES HAS TO EAT!!
19:39:13 <oerjan> *plain TeX
19:39:22 <zzo38> Wikipedia pages don't have to eat
19:39:43 <zzo38> Only the people that write it has to eat. (But not necessarily eating the pages!)
19:41:21 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, you are probably right. But the programming that can be done in TeX is what makes it good idea in my opinion!
19:41:26 <cpressey> zzo38: You are so totally one of those grey aliens pretending to be a human, aren't you?
19:42:03 <zzo38> cpressey: No, I don't think so, not as far as I know, anyways.
19:42:28 * cpressey wants to believe
19:42:33 <cpressey> >_>
19:42:51 <zzo38> I am one of those humans that perhaps it is not meant to be humans but is instead supposted to be some kind of weird monsters that actually doesn't exist and nobody knows nothing about, not even me.
19:42:57 <zzo38> But this is also doubtful.
19:43:10 <zzo38> cpressey: OK, believe what you want to believe either way
19:43:21 <zzo38> (But I am warning you!)
19:43:44 <cpressey> Warning duly noted. Constraining belief systems, please wait...
19:44:07 <oerjan> oh ye of little faith
19:50:17 <zzo38> My Wikipedia userpage mentions rotary telephones, I still use them (I use touchtone as well), but I also use phone that must be pulsed manually, which is the easiest kind to build.
19:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, zzo38 is another result of the Device.
19:50:34 <zzo38> Because is simple and uses less component of others
19:50:57 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, what Device do you mean? I don't know.
19:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, yes, the Device tends to cause that.
19:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't worry about it.
19:51:25 <cpressey> Really surprised that there are any phone companies in NA that still support pulse dialing.
19:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> NA?
19:51:47 <cpressey> Was just reading an article about technologies going "obsolete", by concidence
19:51:49 <ais523> north america, presumably
19:52:25 <cpressey> One of the technologies on this list is the "Computer Mouse"
19:52:27 <zzo38> I think everyone should still continue to support pulse dialing
19:53:07 <zzo38> So that anyone can build a telephone from just a few wires and it will work
19:53:14 <ais523> zzo38: do you think everyone should continue to support unsliced bread?
19:54:46 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I think you can, however you can make it at home baking it, so you don't need to have it commonly available at the store if you do not want to
19:55:01 <cpressey> I think DIP packaging should be banned. Only surface-mount packaging should be manufactured. This will make it much, much harder for pesky individual hobbyists to experiment with electronics.
19:55:51 <zzo38> cpressey: I think both DIP packaging and surface-mount should be remain available.
19:56:29 <cpressey> Also, facetiousness should be punishable by being beaten with a sausage.
19:56:49 <zzo38> cpressey: What is the purpose of that?
19:57:13 <ais523> my first degree was in electronic engineering
19:57:21 <ais523> and surface mount is entirely possible to handle, just more annoying
19:57:38 <ais523> besides, call me back when you invent surface mount wire
19:57:46 <zzo38> ais523: Which is why both ways should remain available.
20:04:02 <cpressey> Sure, it are possible, but if only SM was available, I would probably choose something like kite-building over electronics as a hobby.
20:04:11 <cpressey> Sure, it are!
20:05:01 <cpressey> There's something I'm missing though, about hobbies I mean, but that's a different subject.
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20:09:38 * Sgeo_ kisses Google
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20:18:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, why?
20:18:27 <Sgeo_> I had a problem. Google had the solution
20:18:40 <Sgeo_> BRB
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20:34:26 <Sgeo> Well, now I'm having a different
20:34:29 <Sgeo> different problem
20:34:34 <Sgeo> And finding no solutions :(
20:38:30 <Sgeo> There's RDP support in Ubuntu, right?
20:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> RDP?
20:41:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Remote Desktop Protocol?
20:42:39 <Phantom_Hoover> System>Preferences>Remote Desktop
20:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Applications>Internet>Remote Desktop Viewer?
20:44:20 <Sgeo> I'm not in Ubuntu right now
20:44:23 <Sgeo> I'm on Windows
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20:50:25 <cpressey> There has to be a better way
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20:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> RAPTORS!
20:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Ready the Device!
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21:30:15 <cpressey> Googling for Icoruma is an adventure!
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21:37:22 <cpressey> http://jyte.com/cl/i-have-used-at-least-10-different-programming-languages
21:38:16 <cpressey> I just counted -- I've used 18 "for serious". Counting Visual Basic, 8-bit Microsoft BASIC, and Business BASIC as different languages, and x86 and 6502 as different too.
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21:39:28 <cpressey> I can't count, like, Forth or Prolog, because I've just never gotten very serious with them.
21:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I have used 0 programming languages, then.
21:45:05 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Not even school projects? That you've enjoyed? I've done a school project in Prolog, and if I had enjoyed it, I would have included it...
21:45:14 <cpressey> It was kind of meh though.
21:45:42 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I have whined endlessly about how terrible my school's computing course was.
21:45:46 <cpressey> Prolog is an excellent tool for expressing logical relations. A programming language -- not so much.
21:45:59 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: OK, ok.
21:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I like Prolog, though.
21:48:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Write something you care about in it, and you could raise that 0 to a 1. (Just sayin'.)
21:48:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I've written things I care about before.
21:48:58 <cpressey> But not in a way that you'd consider "for serious"?
21:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they were all for my own amusement.
21:50:03 <AnMaster> <cpressey> http://jyte.com/cl/i-have-used-at-least-10-different-programming-languages <-- what is jyte?
21:50:08 <cpressey> Well, I'm not really using that as a criteria. Almost everything I've written in Haskell or 6502 assembly has been for my own amusement.
21:50:29 <cpressey> AnMaster: It came up during my google search for Icoruma.
21:50:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, what is icoruma?
21:51:08 <cpressey> (1:36:24 PM) zzo38: (And if you want to type the rules of a role playing game, you might use Icoruma and then compile Icoruma files into other formats, such as TeX and HTML)
21:51:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, define serious btw.
21:51:37 <cpressey> AnMaster: No.
21:51:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH
21:51:46 <cpressey> It's intentionally vague
21:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
21:52:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, har har
21:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38: fungot 2.0
21:53:04 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, commissioner, this is one of numerous documents which we ourselves have done in which you are facing up to the year 2012.
21:53:20 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, AHA, so 2012 is involved too?
21:53:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, as several speakers have drawn attention to the needs of a european space strategy together with the proposal on the general headquarters of the united nations.
21:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course!
21:54:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The UN are going to destroy the world in 2012 with European orbital weapons!
21:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> IT ALL MAKES SENSE
21:58:14 <coppro> AHA
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22:01:19 <calamari> hi
22:02:11 <cpressey> Helloooooo calamari.
22:03:15 <calamari> hi cpressey
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22:19:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the whole gang!
22:22:07 <Sgeo> Hm
22:22:16 <Sgeo> That's one eBook I can find only in the Kindle store :(
22:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "It's the whole gang"?
22:39:07 <cpressey> Jinkies!
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22:51:09 <coppro> Can someone please do a /me in a few seconds?
22:51:30 * cpressey refuses to cooperate with coppro
22:51:39 <coppro> thanks
22:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, what nefarious deeds are you up to???
22:55:23 <coppro> testing my client
22:56:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, plans for 2012 clearly
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00:59:36 <coppro> alise: I travel for M:tG tournaments; you never know, I could be in the UK next year
00:59:37 <alise> yay clog
00:59:41 <AnMaster> coppro, yes or no?
00:59:45 <coppro> AnMaster: Hungary? :P
00:59:46 <coppro> (no)
00:59:48 <AnMaster> coppro, FAIL
00:59:51 <alise> coppro: I bet in London or some other big city.
01:00:01 <coppro> alise: most likely, yes
01:00:01 <AnMaster> coppro, Sweden. See that is why you should include country. Not just state
01:00:08 <olsner> coppro: Hungry?
01:00:10 <alise> If you're not in Newcastle, you're too far away to visit Hexham without making me worry that rape is a serious possibility.
01:00:12 <coppro> I was joking
01:00:17 <alise> :P
01:00:27 <AnMaster> coppro, not that I'm in Västerbotten. But I don't want to be more specific than "Sweden"
01:00:35 <coppro> AnMaster: fair enough
01:01:03 <coppro> (oddly enough, Ontario is far less specific geographically, but significantly more specific in terms of the number of people it might be
01:01:30 <alise> Ontario is bigger than Alberta?
01:01:30 <AnMaster> coppro, so lower population density
01:01:39 <alise> Oh, are you meaning the area
01:01:40 <alise> *area?
01:01:47 <alise> Wait.
01:01:49 <coppro> I was comparing to Sweden
01:01:51 <alise> I was confusing Ottawa and Ontario.
01:01:52 <alise> Heh.
01:01:58 <alise> Now I'm /really/ confused.
01:01:59 <coppro> Ontario is larger both in area and population than Alberta
01:02:04 <alise> Yes.
01:02:13 <alise> I thought you meant Ottawa, which I thought was called Ontario because I am confused.
01:02:18 <coppro> ok
01:02:38 <olsner> aren't ottawa and ontario both in canada?
01:02:45 <alise> Yes.
01:02:46 <alise> Yes they are.
01:02:47 <coppro> olsner: yes
01:02:51 <alise> Ottawa is also in Ontario.
01:02:57 <coppro> Ottawa is the capital of Canada, conveniently located in Ontario
01:02:57 <alise> It's almost as if areas of the world are nested.
01:03:07 <alise> coppro: but the capital of Ontario is Toronto, isn't it?
01:03:12 <AnMaster> now, saying Västerbotten to olsner would be far more successful of course
01:03:14 <olsner> alise: nested!? woah!!
01:03:16 <alise> I believe that is what I read on Wikipedia three seconds ago
01:03:20 <alise> Yes, yes it is.
01:03:23 <alise> That's not confusing at all.
01:03:29 <alise> NOT AT ALL.
01:03:42 <olsner> AnMaster: I have no idea where that is except it's in sweden, probably up north
01:03:44 <AnMaster> wonderful
01:03:46 <AnMaster> alise, ^
01:03:50 <coppro> alise: right
01:03:55 <AnMaster> olsner, hah, but you live in Sweden
01:03:58 <alise> coppro: I think Ontario is more populous than Sweden.
01:04:00 <AnMaster> olsner, and yes up north somewhere.
01:04:05 <coppro> also there's Gatineau
01:04:07 <coppro> which is in Quebec
01:04:08 <alise> Indeed.
01:04:13 <coppro> but is also a part of the National Capital Region
01:04:25 <AnMaster> olsner, I suspect I passed through on the sleeper train
01:04:26 <alise> Sweden: 9,354,462
01:04:30 <AnMaster> if it is along the coast ther is
01:04:32 <alise> Ontario: 13,167,894
01:04:58 <olsner> oh, sweden is small! (what else is new...)
01:05:05 <coppro> alise: oh, really?
01:05:10 <AnMaster> olsner, not by European area standards
01:05:11 <alise> olsner's conceptions about the world are be