←2016-09 2016-10 2016-11→ ↑2016 ↑all
2016-10-01
00:00:28 <FireFly> Well, 'like' would be a better translation I think, but sure
00:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> What is the minimum number of symbols (with minimalist rules) required to- in an unambiguous way- express all of traditional algebra?
00:00:54 <FireFly> oerjan: it's the go-to word for that, yes
00:01:07 <int-e> I also see that shachaf repeated himself, but with correct grammar this time.
00:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> a+b can be expressed as a-(-b), but to reduce rules we can do a-(0-b)
00:01:22 <shachaf> int-e: Look. Last time I was unsure of myself.
00:01:33 <shachaf> int-e: I looked it up on the Internet and I found a version with incorrect grammar.
00:01:46 <int-e> shachaf: Yes, I recall, vaguely.
00:02:28 <hppavilion[1]> In APL, ?B is roll B (choose an integer at random from the first B integers (nevermind that "first k integers" makes no sense)
00:02:44 <oerjan> FireFly: good. the wiktionary example seemed rather archaic ("Av konungen gillad och stadfäst.")
00:02:54 <FireFly> Heh
00:02:56 <boily> hppavilion[1]: of course it makes sense. they are the first k integers.
00:03:06 <shachaf> That's an out of context quote.
00:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> boily: what's the first integer?
00:03:08 <shachaf> http://microapl.com/apl_help/ch_020_020_170.htm
00:03:18 <shachaf> "Generates numbers chosen at random from the series of the first N integers which start at the index origin (⎕IO)"
00:03:32 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it has an index origin. OK.
00:03:40 <FireFly> Yes
00:03:46 <FireFly> One of APL's ugly quirks
00:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> I expected A?B to be choosing the first B integers, minus the first A
00:04:11 <hppavilion[1]> Except A?B is basically just an array of ?B run A times
00:04:28 <boily> hppavilion[1]: -9223372036854775808 hth
00:04:43 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: yes...that is a lot more useful in an APL context than what you suggested
00:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> ...fair enough, can't think of any smaller integers
00:04:48 <int-e> `unidecode
00:04:49 <HackEgo> No output.
00:05:17 <hppavilion[1]> (I figured it COULD be ordering it as [0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...], but I doubted it)
00:06:19 <int-e> oh it appears that shachaf's client put a color reset code before that `learn earlier
00:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, ⌈B is the smallest integer ≥ B, ⌊B is the greatest integer ≤ B
00:06:32 <FireFly> for "the first B integers, minus the first A" you'd probably do A+?B-A
00:06:44 <shachaf> int-e: Yes. It wasn't a serious `learn.
00:06:51 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Yes, I figured
00:07:20 <hppavilion[1]> A⌈B is the greater, A⌊B is the lesser
00:07:25 <oerjan> int-e: SPOILER
00:07:27 <hppavilion[1]> What's the function for round?
00:07:30 <FireFly> the notation ⌈x⌉/⌊x⌋ for ceiling/floor originated in A Programming Language
00:07:52 <int-e> oerjan: I was puzzled!
00:07:58 <FireFly> as in, the book, not the later programming language that followed from the notation
00:07:59 <int-e> (sorry...)
00:08:57 <int-e> ...
00:09:15 <oerjan> int-e: it's particularly insidious because it's one of the characters that doesn't get copied in irssi...
00:09:42 <int-e> this one?
00:09:44 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: I'm more familiar with J than APL, but AFAIK it doesn't have a 'round' primitive; you'd have to implement it in terms of ceil/floor
00:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> APL would've been more interesting with 3 functions for every operator *; A*, *B, and A*B
00:10:15 <int-e> no, this one.
00:10:21 <oerjan> int-e> this one?
00:10:44 <oerjan> sorry, i got a newline on the end
00:10:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK, but... how? How do you get the fractional- wait, floor(x) if abs(x)-floor(abs(x)) < 0.5 else ceil(x). Easy.
00:11:06 <int-e> Counting to 15 is hard.
00:11:16 <int-e> `confuse oerjan
00:11:39 <oerjan> my browser doesn't show it in the logs either, so i have to paste it into irssi, and _then_ i can see on my own editing line
00:11:53 <oerjan> *it on
00:11:54 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> (ceil(-0.5) = 0, right? I assume so, but I can see it being defined as -1 just as easily, and really being better that way)
00:12:08 <int-e> my browser shows a box with 000F in it there, hmm.
00:12:18 <int-e> maybe I lack the right fonts to make it invisible.
00:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> (If we define ceil(-0.5) = -1, then ceil(x) = -ceil(-x)
00:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> )
00:12:28 <oerjan> i suppose i can probably see it in vim too
00:12:59 <int-e> oerjan: wait, windows, which browser?
00:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> ⍋B is a nice function though...
00:13:25 * int-e is using firefox under linux, that may make a difference
00:13:40 <oerjan> int-e: IE hth
00:14:05 <int-e> oerjan: stop exploding the internet
00:14:45 <int-e> (heh that's almost a plausible typo in qwerty)
00:14:47 * oerjan waves his triceratops bone cane at int-e
00:15:15 <int-e> oerjan: I knew you were living in the stone age :P
00:15:34 <shachaf> I don't mind taxes, but I don't like the idea of paying taxes that I'm not required to pay.
00:15:39 <shachaf> Er, wrong channel.
00:16:26 <int-e> (also I have no clue by how many million years that is off; I blame the Feuerstein family)
00:16:43 <boily> itym the Pierrafeu.
00:16:47 <oerjan> int-e: i'm pretty sure IE _used_ to show those chars, but it changed at some point.
00:17:10 <oerjan> int-e: approx. 65 million years hth
00:17:23 <int-e> I mean the Flintstones.
00:17:29 <oerjan> i think triceratops was there until the end
00:17:29 <int-e> oerjan: thanks
00:18:08 <oerjan> iirc they're just "Flint" in norwegian. or at least used to be.
00:18:12 -!- Caesura has joined.
00:18:18 <oerjan> (no:flint = en:flintstone)
00:18:24 <int-e> boily: that's all french to me
00:19:14 <int-e> (google helped)
00:20:12 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: uhm, you might want to learn APL a bit before having opinions on its parsing rules :P it really wouldn't work well to have both prefix, postfix and infix
00:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> Yes xD
00:20:27 <oerjan> hm apparently flint means the same thing in english. material vs. piece of it?
00:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: And circumfix and postcircumfix and...
00:20:39 <FireFly> You could come up with such a language probably, but it certainly wouldn't be APL
00:21:02 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: the original APL notation had several circumfix operators (such as floor/ceil, as mentioned)
00:21:04 <ais523> what about interfix?
00:21:14 <ais523> INTERCAL has a few unary operators that go one character inside their argument
00:21:18 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/APL.htm
00:21:29 <FireFly> ais523: heh, that is pretty bizarre
00:21:33 <myname> defining ceil(-0.5) as -1 is pretty stupid
00:21:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What if your argument is one character?
00:21:43 <hppavilion[1]> (I have a feeling the answer is "INTERCAL")
00:21:52 <myname> generally speaking, ceil(x) >= x (hence the name)
00:21:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that can't happen in INTERCAL
00:21:56 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But then -ceil(-x) is equal to ceil(x)
00:22:03 <ais523> all legal operands are at least two characters long
00:22:12 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's not ceil anymore
00:22:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And this satisfies a property that abs(ceil(x)) > abs(x)
00:22:31 <FireFly> it's "round away from zero"
00:22:38 <shachaf> ceil rounds toward +infty
00:22:41 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Fair enough
00:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it could be called "magnitude ceiling" or "absolute ceiling"
00:22:55 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that's not what ceil says
00:22:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well yeah
00:23:01 <shachaf> HireFly
00:23:03 <myname> a ceiling is ebove you, isn't it
00:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> myname: OK
00:23:34 <shachaf> On the other hand, I wanted a name for this operation:
00:23:38 <shachaf> exp . abs . log
00:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I have a bad habit of thinking of numbers as (sign, magnitude) rather than just value
00:24:07 <shachaf> myname: but if you stand on a mirror, you see the reflection of the ceiling below you
00:24:10 <shachaf> and 0 is like a mirror
00:24:10 <shachaf> hth
00:24:28 <myname> shachaf: you don't?
00:24:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:24:41 <shachaf> I don't?
00:24:46 <int-e> next we'll discuss how negative numbers are imaginary...
00:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I made an operation called sign-preserving power (x^'y) that is equal to sgn(x)*abs(x)^y
00:25:08 <shachaf> If negative numbers are imaginary, what sorts of numbers are complex?
00:25:09 <myname> i never watched in a mirror and saw my foot pointing upwards
00:25:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: All of them hth
00:25:20 <myname> ah, zon_
00:25:32 <myname> who would ever step _on_ a mirror
00:25:40 <shachaf> Me?
00:25:45 <oerjan> <myname> a ceiling is ebove you, isn't it <-- technically, ceilings are in the opposite direction on the opposite side of the earth >:)
00:25:48 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:26:17 <myname> oerjan: no, because downwards is not defined that way
00:27:27 <int-e> http://tinyurl.com/z52q2x6 is a bit creepy.
00:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Downwards is defined in terms of "away from the center of the earth"
00:27:51 <shachaf> What, posting tinyurl.com links in IRC?
00:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> s/away from/towards/
00:28:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: and ceilings are generally upwards hth
00:28:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes
00:28:43 <int-e> shachaf: I usually use the plain link but in this case it was long and uninformative?
00:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...And if we treat the center of the earth as the origin, that means that someone on the opposite side of the earth is closer to you than their ceiling
00:29:06 <shachaf> I clicked on it but that's only because I know you a bit, I guess.
00:29:07 <oerjan> myname: australians beg to differ
00:29:28 <int-e> http://archivelikeyou.com/files/fullimages/Jeppe_Hein_wallner_12.jpg looks like a mirror one can step on
00:29:59 <shachaf> I'm sure that if you look down into that mirror, you see the ceiling.
00:30:36 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes
00:30:36 <shachaf> You know the puzzle about why mirrors flip things left-to-right?
00:30:53 <oerjan> <myname> who would ever step _on_ a mirror <-- now i'm reminded of my visit to the CN tower in toronto... (if that had only been a mirror...)
00:31:21 <hppavilion[1]> OK, mceil(x) is sgn(x)*ceil(abs(x)), ceil(x) is the smallest integer ≥x. Floor is the same (with mfloor and floor)
00:31:37 <int-e> shachaf: I do.
00:31:53 <shachaf> It's a good puzzle.
00:32:01 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what is it good for?
00:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Statistics, probably
00:39:47 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA! I finally got my postcard, 28 days later... (well, 29 considering timezones)
00:39:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:40:11 <shachaf> `date
00:40:12 <HackEgo> Fri Sep 30 23:40:00 UTC 2016
00:42:15 <boily> lifthrasiirland is so far away...
00:42:35 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>
00:47:22 <int-e> <evil>Oh maybe we should make a bin/learn command to make the illusion perfect.</evil>
00:49:11 -!- Menphis has joined.
00:51:11 <Zarutian> Perhaps you people can answer me avout a punishment device or construct of yore. What is it called that was put around the necks and hands of criminals but was not fixed in any place? Usually made out of sturdy wood.
00:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: What illusion?
00:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> `? password
00:51:47 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
00:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> ...cool
00:52:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> How can you tell whether d^2x = 0? <-- it occurs to me that d is in some sense an _arbitrary_ derivative. so to get d^2 x = 0 you have to select the right one.
00:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> `which learn
00:52:15 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/learn
00:52:22 <hppavilion[1]> `cat /hackenv/bin/learn
00:52:23 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
00:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/learn
00:52:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn
00:54:29 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_(differential_algebra)
00:54:43 * Zarutian patiently waits for an answer.
00:55:26 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: ...OK, I give up, hth did that work?
00:57:00 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Maybe `learn should be able to detect a phrase between |vertical bars aka pipes| (after stripping /an?|the/) and use the entire phrase instead of just the first word)
00:57:35 <oerjan> Zarutian: pillory
00:58:00 <Zarutian> oerjan: thanks.
00:58:24 <hppavilion[1]> (so "`learn |John Lenon| was a member of the Beatles." would put "John Lenon was a member of the Beatles." in <wisdom/John Lenon>)
00:58:26 <hppavilion[1]> `? wisdome
00:58:27 <HackEgo> The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
00:59:11 <oerjan> Zarutian: or hm, not sure about the "not fixed in any place" part. although there were many variants of these things...
00:59:24 <boily> hppavilion[1]: nice usage of the «œ».
00:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn_append wisdome//Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
00:59:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdome': The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. /Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
00:59:36 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I never used œ...
00:59:51 <boily> wait, you didn't...
00:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> It was HackEgo
01:00:26 <Zarutian> oerjan: it fits what I had read in an Alita Battle Angel manga.
01:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: set the password of the month to <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>, but when I asked it said it was au cœur de septembre
01:00:35 * boily looks shiftily at HackEgo. «T'en sais trop sur les ligatures. C'est louche.»
01:00:39 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose someone might have edited in PM, but...
01:00:44 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:00:49 <Zarutian> oerjan: couldnt remember what it was called exactly until you said it.
01:00:51 <hppavilion[1]> `culprits wisdom/password
01:00:57 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan gamemanj int-e oerjan int-e oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
01:01:07 <zzo38> Do you know what is 58.86.33.135?
01:01:14 <hppavilion[1]> `? password of the month
01:01:15 <HackEgo> password of the month? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:01:29 -!- Caesura has joined.
01:01:35 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode password
01:01:37 <HackEgo> ​[U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D]
01:02:07 <oerjan> Zarutian: there were some other links in that wp article. Cangue is a chinese variant so may fit for a manga...
01:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> `which culprits
01:02:36 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/culprits
01:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/culprits
01:02:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/culprits
01:02:51 <oerjan> and "shrew's fiddle" was also portable.
01:03:06 <hppavilion[1]> `which hoag
01:03:07 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> `url hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/hoag
01:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> `where learn
01:04:09 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
01:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> Wait...
01:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode `learn
01:04:44 <HackEgo> ​[U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
01:04:59 <Zarutian> oerjan: well I was thinking more of the thing that looks like the criminal has his/her hands and head through a table plus the document describing their crime.
01:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode The
01:05:30 <HackEgo> ​[U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE]
01:06:24 <boily> `wisdom
01:06:27 <HackEgo> taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
01:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do we have a reverse-culprits?
01:06:35 <Zarutian> oerjan: been toying with the idea of using an 'cyberized' version of cangue in an near future sci-fi story.
01:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> `which echo-p
01:06:51 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/echo-p
01:06:59 <hppavilion[1]> `url /hackenv/bin/echo-p
01:07:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/echo-p
01:07:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what is that wissphere for?
01:07:06 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:07:25 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether i'm missing a reference, or you are
01:07:33 <boily> hppavilion[1]: reverse-culprits? a list of people that make you write wisdom entries?
01:07:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The Wisdome goes underground as well, so it should be called 'wissphere'
01:08:18 -!- heroux has joined.
01:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No, you enter a username and it returns a list of the last 10 or so files that they edited
01:08:42 <hppavilion[1]> So `reverse-culprits boily would tell me what you've done with HackEgo recently
01:09:33 <boily> I haven't done much recently to HackEgo...
01:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh my god int-e's `learn was never processed by hackego...
01:09:52 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god I'm an idiot...
01:10:27 <hppavilion[1]> `` unidecode <int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance> > shr/unidecoded
01:10:28 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> ``unidecode "<int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>" > shr/decoded
01:10:54 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `unidecode: not found
01:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god
01:11:12 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do we have a reverse-culprits? <-- i don't think so. seems hard to do efficiently.
01:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> `` unidecode "<int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>" > shr/decoded
01:11:23 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> ...FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
01:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> `` foo
01:11:46 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: foo: command not found
01:11:52 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode `learn <-- hint, it's before the `
01:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yep, that's what I figured.
01:12:13 <hppavilion[1]> I was checking
01:12:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It does seem unefficiable at first, but I figure there could be a way to make Mercurial do it inefficiently for us
01:12:59 <int-e> Zarutian: http://www.pilloryhistory.com/other.html suggests "yoke"
01:13:22 <hppavilion[1]> Like, searching for all things with a description starting with "<$1>" (Do I need to escape that?)
01:14:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well yeah, as long as searching all log entries isn't too much.
01:14:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, that's the problem.
01:14:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, you don't want to use `` with unidecode
01:15:14 <oerjan> i guess searching in backwards order should work if they've actually edited some
01:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> Probably only search the last ~500 (which is STILL slow, probably) and print the most recent 10 files
01:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, that's probably what you'd do
01:15:52 <oerjan> `slwd wisdome//s,/,,
01:16:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/wisdome//The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
01:16:21 <int-e> `date
01:16:22 <HackEgo> Sat Oct 1 00:16:10 UTC 2016
01:16:28 <Zarutian> int-e: the idea is that the pillory|cangue|yoke is big enough for passerbys to see the reason why it is around that person neck plus have a loop of something like monofilament wire embedded inside that will behead the criminal if an serious attempt at removal without cryptographic authorization is performed.
01:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, what did s,/,, do?
01:16:53 <int-e> Zarutian: you're on your own there
01:17:07 <hppavilion[1]> If there are <10 files, just print all that you find
01:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, newline. Apparently.
01:18:38 <hppavilion[1]> I guess?
01:18:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: removed a / you'd accidentally left there
01:18:44 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
01:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I thought le/rn required two slashes...
01:19:34 <oerjan> no, le//rn does
01:19:36 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, that's mkx
01:20:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I thought le//rn needed you to sacrifice a he-goat to satan though?
01:20:13 <oerjan> no?
01:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
01:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: Do you want us to sacrifice a he-goat to satan?
01:21:06 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that some guards' palms can be used to practise throwing stones at things, the big black cobra, and scholars, by edward bulwer-lytton)
01:21:14 <oerjan> they're almost the same, except le//rn requires two // but also allows you to give directories
01:21:27 <oerjan> *-two
01:21:39 <hppavilion[1]> Wiser words have never been spoken, fungot.
01:21:39 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that problem breathing is best known for two things. you'll probably find one on the red marble table in front of him.
01:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: But what's the other thing?
01:22:01 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: lizard corpses aren't confusing. are you a gentleman? two levels ahead is a powerful artifact. anyone who carries it by half. it was locked. he could stand it no longer, until an unsuspecting creature passes by. it stands two to four feet, by snorri sturluson)
01:22:31 <oerjan> `? password
01:22:33 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
01:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: So problem breathing is best known for whatever's on the red marble table and for lizard corpses?
01:22:35 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: quetzalcoatl: one of the forest." the dear old man beamed upon her, with dried brown limbs like dead wood showing through moldering bandages. " how the wind, the wizard has hired some help. twenty other arms came rippling out.
01:23:00 <hppavilion[1]> ^style
01:23:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:23:00 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is Bierstubë.
01:23:04 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Bierstubë.
01:23:24 <hppavilion[1]> ^style ic
01:23:24 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
01:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh
01:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: Can you intracalate?
01:23:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Is there INTRACAL?)
01:23:47 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit...
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01:24:48 <oerjan> ULFRACAL
01:25:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Never heard 'ulfra'?
01:25:09 <hppavilion[1]> (misp. 'ultra'?)
01:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> The number of derivatives of INTERCAL is rather ironic, given that it was designed to have no similarities...
01:25:40 <oerjan> it's a misspelling, but not of ultra.
01:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> INFRA?
01:26:33 <oerjan> i was trying to do INTER:INTRA::INFRA:? but i think i failed
01:27:25 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, first of all, INTER:INTRA::?:INFRA
01:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> Second, ?=ULTRA
01:28:04 <hppavilion[1]> hth
01:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> (infrared/ultraviolet)
01:28:26 <oerjan> i don't think so. inter isn't to intra what ultra is to infra.
01:28:35 <oerjan> or wait, is it.
01:30:30 <boily> INTER:INTRA::INFER:INFRA ?
01:31:03 <oerjan> INFERNAL ULTERIOR INTEGRAL
01:31:40 <oerjan> `? intercal
01:31:42 <HackEgo> INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
01:32:23 <oerjan> dissonant
01:33:22 <boily> in the future, we'll all be COBOL programmers.
01:34:35 <oerjan> the CABAL will see to it
01:35:14 <hppavilion[1]> infrarnal
01:35:24 <Taneb> COBOL, the language of my ancestors
01:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> I still think #esoteric should create a language JUST reasonable enough that employers will want to make people use it, but out-of-the-ordinary enough that using it is fun (and/or infuriating) for the programmers
01:36:31 <Taneb> Like Java!
01:38:18 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Like anything BUT Java
01:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> Java is bland and generic, with a lot of unnecessary cruft and hyper-formulaic rules
01:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking it will draw on math and FP and LP, but remain imperative enough to be usable
01:40:42 <hppavilion[1]> Curried functions will be the only option, for example
01:41:58 <boily> Java isn't generic. it teases you with false promises, then stabs you in the back with a blunt object.
01:42:54 <boily> remind me to copy one very nice line I wrote just to terrorise a few coworkers next Monday.
01:43:07 <boily> s/copy/copy you/
01:43:57 <hppavilion[1]> OK
01:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> @tell-delay
01:44:12 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
01:44:17 <hppavilion[1]> Darn
01:44:18 <hppavilion[1]> @list
01:44:18 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
01:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> @listmodules
01:44:21 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
01:44:21 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
01:44:35 <hppavilion[1]> @which tell
01:44:35 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
01:44:38 <hppavilion[1]> @where tell
01:44:38 <lambdabot> @help tell
01:44:42 <hppavilion[1]> @help tell
01:44:42 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
01:44:46 <hppavilion[1]> *sigh*
01:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> @module tell
01:45:00 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
01:47:35 <hppavilion[1]> (There wouldn't happen to be any n s.t. log_n(x) = x forall x, would there?)
01:50:55 <boily> 1.
01:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> boily: log?
01:51:33 <boily> log_1.
01:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> 1^x = x?
01:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> log_1(x) = x ∧ x=5 -> 1*1*1*1*1=5
01:53:42 <oerjan> @list tell
01:53:42 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages auto-reply auto-reply? clear-auto-reply
01:53:55 <oerjan> hm
01:54:01 <oerjan> @help auto-reply
01:54:01 <lambdabot> auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message
01:54:14 * oerjan didn't notice that before
01:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> @auto-reply
01:54:16 <lambdabot> No auto-reply message given. Did you mean @clear-auto-reply?
01:54:20 <Jafet> @help! messages?
01:54:20 <lambdabot> messages?. Tells you whether you have any messages
01:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> @ask oerjan You've already set auto-reply, haven't you?
01:55:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:56:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: x*y = log_n(x*y) = log_n x + log_n y = x+y for all x,y hth
01:56:28 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] nope
01:56:28 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
01:56:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:56:37 <oerjan> huh
01:56:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Happa * New user account
01:59:05 <boily> oh, a new user! will it be a real person?
02:01:21 <oerjan> well they don't seem to be trying to edit
02:01:52 <oerjan> real or otherwise
02:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> 'Happa'...
02:01:57 * hppavilion[1] is suspicious
02:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> @massages-lud
02:02:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5m 35s ago: nope
02:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan OK
02:02:08 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:02:17 <oerjan> @messages-
02:02:17 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 8s ago: OK
02:02:18 <boily> happavalion[1]?
02:02:25 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.xkcd.com/1296/
02:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Some people I've known IRL have pronounced hppavilion1 as 'hap pavilion one'
02:03:00 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, the 1 makes an [i] sound, first of all
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02:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, how is it even possible to go without the axiom of choice?
02:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> "[AC is] equivalent to the statement that the Cartesian product of a collection of non-empty sets is non-empty."
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02:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> Last time I checked, the cardinality of the union of a collection of nonempty sets is ≥ the cardinality of any of those sets.
02:08:02 <oerjan> so?
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02:08:31 <hppavilion[1]> If you take the Cartesian product of a collection of sets and empty the tuples into a set, I'm pretty sure you get their union
02:09:16 <oerjan> that's equivalent to the axiom of choice hth
02:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> (that is, {('a', 1), ('a', 2), ('a', 3), ('b', 1), ('b', 2), ('b', 3)} -> {'a', 1, 'b', 2, 3})
02:09:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but I don't see any way you can argue with it
02:10:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you're assuming there are _any_ tuples in the product to start with.
02:11:23 <oerjan> also it can be proved for a finite number of sets.
02:12:07 <oerjan> to contradict AoC, you need an infinite collection of sets such that you have _no_ way of uniformly selecting an element from one.
02:12:17 <oerjan> *from each
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02:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
02:12:51 <oerjan> (the individual sets don't have to be infinite, i think.)
02:14:17 <oerjan> there's the famous quip: you need the AoC to select one element from each of an infinite set of pairs of socks, but not from an infinite set of pairs of shoes.
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02:31:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s86-Z-CbaHA again, and something is bugging me
02:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> The real numbers in the interval <0 -> 1> are uncountable, correct?
02:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I interpreted something e said wrong; I suppose that, perhaps, not all points on the circumference can be expressed as k radians for a finite nonnegative integer k)
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02:42:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yes
02:42:23 <hppavilion[1]> OK...
02:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, Banack-Tarski is giving me a serious bad-math smell
02:42:51 <hppavilion[1]> Like, a you-just-broke-the-rules smell
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02:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, is |ℝ × ℝ| = ℝ? Just checking
02:48:50 <izalove> yes
02:50:39 <izalove> don't think too much about banach tarski, they're just playing with sets where your idea of volume can't be applied
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03:04:47 <shachaf> `? password
03:04:53 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Bierstubë.
03:04:59 <shachaf> oerjan: I fell asleep for two hours and missed your inlaurdation
03:10:34 <oerjan> `unidecode ℝ × ℝ| = ℝ
03:10:37 <HackEgo> ​[U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00D7 MULTIPLICATION SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+003D EQUALS SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R]
03:11:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Right, but isn't the point of all this that it's arbitrary?
03:11:20 <shachaf> If it's not completely arbitrary, what derivatives am I allowed to use?
03:12:55 <shachaf> I don't want to pick a specific derivative. What constraints do I have? I guess I can say "d is a differentiating operator such that d^2x = 0"
03:13:26 <shachaf> But thtne what am I allowed to use it on?
03:15:07 <shachaf> then
03:15:41 <oerjan> you can use it on any function that's differentiable enough times in a neighborhood...
03:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> Proposal: No more % (percent) (proportion multiplied by 100). Henceforth, all values are expressed in perunit (symbol like percent with short lines parallel to the main line instead of circles) (multiply by nothing because there's no actual reason to)
03:34:38 <shachaf> instead of %, use ℅
03:36:00 <izalove> take ℅ something
03:37:07 <oerjan> `unidecode ℅
03:37:09 <HackEgo> ​[U+2105 CARE OF]
03:37:55 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, does the order of slices in a pie chart ever matter? Obviously if you make it like that, we all hate you, but does it matter?
03:39:05 <hppavilion[1]> (And in general, are pie chart slices supposed to scale by area or by curve subtended by angle?)
03:40:28 <zzo38> What I have implemented is by angle.
03:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> Term proposal: Improper Sector
03:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> An improper sector is a sector where the ratio of the central angle to tau radians is greater than 1
03:45:12 <hppavilion[1]> (so, for example, a circle that kind of overshoots; so a sector with central angle of 3pi radians, or a sesquicircle; 1.5 circles)
03:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: By angle is most natural, but by area is probably more easy-to-understand to the human eye
03:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> (I would recommend having both, with angle as the default but area being a permitted mode)
03:48:36 <zzo38> I thought it might come out the same?
03:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: No, the area of a circular sector with a radius r and angle theta is (theta*r^2)/2
03:52:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the area is proportional to the angle unless you vary the radius (in which case it's not an ordinary pie chart)
03:52:34 <hppavilion[1]> Well yeah
03:52:35 <zzo38> The radius is the same for each slice though
03:52:47 <zzo38> Therefore, it does come out the same.
03:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's either a pielar angle chart or a stupid needlessly stylized pie chart
03:53:26 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm now wondering about elliptical sectors...)
03:54:54 <oerjan> elliptical is tricky, afaiu the correspondence between angle and area isn't even an elementary function...
03:55:24 <oerjan> hm or
03:55:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: They are a thing, it looks like; a sector is (theta : angle, radius : distance)
03:55:36 <oerjan> that does seem unlikely, actually.
03:55:55 <hppavilion[1]> An elliptical sector is ((theta1 : angle, theta2 : angle), (r1 : distance, r2 : distance))
03:56:31 <oerjan> it's the arc length that's nonelementary, perhaps.
03:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, yes, I don't think there's a good way to calculate the circumference of an ellipse other than infinite series
03:57:09 <hppavilion[1]> I once tried to find it
03:58:28 <oerjan> technically that would be the case for a circle too, if someone hadn't declared pi, sin and cos etc. to be "easy"
03:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, pi is at least constant
03:59:27 <oerjan> yeah but you just try to calculate it without using a series somewhere :P
04:00:25 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, there's probably a generalized minor pi-yielding function (not a minor function that yields pi; a function that yields a minor pi) (not to be confused with the Pi Function that's just gamma(x+1)) that calculates the local value of pi for a proportion of the radii
04:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> But I don't even know if we know what it is
04:01:14 <oerjan> wat
04:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> So a unit elliptical (a unit ellipse is has its x-radius equal to 1 and its y-radius equal to some proportion of its x-radius (which clever people might notice is literally just any real number) sector given by theta1 and theta2 is, basically, the area bounded by a line segment from the origin to the circumference of the ellipse at angle theta1, the same to angle theta2, and the part of the ellipse's circumference between the endpoints
04:02:30 <hppavilion[1]> s/\)/))/
04:03:04 * oerjan glazes over
04:05:27 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, so an ellipse is a shape given by point (a, b), point (c, d), and distance k that includes all points (x, y) where sqrt((x-a)^2+(y-b)^2) + sqrt((x-c)^2+(y-d)^2) = k
04:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently
04:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, no you don't
04:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> @ask boily Do you keep a backup mapole in the channel when you aren't here?
04:05:50 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:07:08 * oerjan licks icing off his fingers
04:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> Can you have a hyperellipse (ntbcw a superellipse) where there are more than 2 focal points?
04:07:56 <izalove> stahp
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04:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, the sum of the distances to the focal point is 2*R (R being max(r1, r2))
04:10:01 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I'm sorry :
04:10:02 <hppavilion[1]> :(
04:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> (This would be easier if we could use pretty math)
04:11:13 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: For any shape there's often multiple useful ways to specify it
04:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Well yes
04:11:34 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: This was the way relevant to what I was saying
04:12:33 <FreeFull> Yeah, the "Take two points, an ellipse is the locus you get when the sum of distances to the points is equal to a constant" definition is one of the most common
04:12:43 <FreeFull> You can also define an ellipse as a stretched circle
04:13:05 <FreeFull> In which case you have a centre point, a minor radius, and a major radius
04:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
04:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> OH! I created a symbol for derivatives that made me happy today. You write a special derivative symbol, a number n below it (nth derivative; if you want the 1st derivative then n can be dropped), the variables it's with respect to separated by commas terminated with a colon (if it's just 'all the variables', you can drop this part), then the thing you're derivativing. It took me several hours to realize the special derivative symbol I
04:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> used was basically just the euro sign xD
04:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> (it only had one horizontal stroke though. It might have been something else, really, but I don't remember any other similar-looking symbols. It was intended to look like a capital ε- basically a larger ϵ, I suppose- but not just an E)
04:16:24 <FreeFull> f(x) = x^2 f€_1(x) = 2x ??
04:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yep, centrepoint is what I use for fonts
04:17:13 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: More like €_1 f(x), but the _1 could be dropped too because it's the default
04:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> (the colon part is for incomplete derivatives)
04:17:30 <FreeFull> I wonder if four points on the circumference are enough to uniquely specify any ellipse
04:17:49 <FreeFull> Three definitely aren't enough
04:18:00 <izalove> 5 are
04:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: It depends on whether any happen to be the same
04:18:09 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: 5 are enough for ANY conic section
04:18:13 <izalove> yeah
04:18:19 <hppavilion[1]> Which is exactly what you meant...
04:18:24 <izalove> can't go below that
04:18:25 <FreeFull> For 5 I can think of arrangements that don't give a valid ellipse
04:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: No, you can uniquely specify any circle with 2 points
04:18:52 <izalove> not if the points lie on the circumference
04:18:56 <oerjan> FreeFull: right, but you cannot expect less than 5, still
04:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Ah, yes, forgot about that
04:19:11 <FreeFull> You can uniquely determine a circle with 3 points on the circumference
04:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> But 3 on the circumference, probably
04:19:18 <oerjan> because ellipses are like an open subset of all conics
04:19:20 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: by the same reasoning you can specify any ellipse with 3 points
04:19:28 <hppavilion[1]> You can uniquely specify any conic section with at MOST 5 points, and that's where it might not be an ellipse
04:19:31 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: How so?
04:19:43 <shachaf> how many points do you need to specify an eclipse?
04:19:46 <izalove> foci + distance
04:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Earth, moon, sun, several vectors of speed, probably some mass.
04:20:25 <FreeFull> Yeah, I specifically was thinking of points on the circumference
04:20:37 <FreeFull> Hmm, let's consider the vertices of a square
04:20:43 <FreeFull> Can we fit more than one ellipse to those?
04:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> In my head the 3 points on the circumference of a circle are arranged in an equilateral triangle; is this enough?
04:20:59 <FreeFull> I think four points aren't enough
04:21:08 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yes, one is the other rotated 90 degrees
04:21:29 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: 3 points are enough for a circumference
04:21:29 <hppavilion[1]> (which is equivalent to swapping major and minor ~arcana~ radii)
04:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes
04:21:44 <hppavilion[1]> Which is what I said, I thought
04:21:52 <hppavilion[1]> The second time
04:21:54 <izalove> they don't have to be an equilateral triangle
04:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Well yes, but they happened to be internally
04:22:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: if you allow choosing _special_ points on the circle, then obviously 2 are enough.
04:22:14 <hppavilion[1]> You could obviously move htem
04:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, of course
04:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> If you allow the point to be anywhere, you can probably do it with 1
04:22:55 <hppavilion[1]> Somehow
04:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> I guess as |R^3?
04:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> (x, y, r)
04:23:53 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, the symbol looks more like Є
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04:26:54 <FreeFull> For a circle you just need the diameter
04:27:05 <FreeFull> For an ellipse a diameter and a radius
04:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
04:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: But if you can use arbitrary points that may not even have significance to it, you can do it with a single point in 1D
04:29:04 <FreeFull> That depends on if you're allowed to depend on the point's coordinates
04:29:10 <FreeFull> You might not be given coordinates at all
04:29:11 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Ah, yes
04:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> An ellipse centred at (x, y) with radius r (all are real numbers) can be represented by literally just lacing the bits if you have to
04:29:25 <\oren\> I started a new game as france. I created my own alliance with the czechoslovakia, yugoslavia, and romania.
04:29:50 <FreeFull> \oren\: But not with Poland?
04:30:02 <\oren\> When Germany demanded the sudetenland, I responded by invading the rhineland
04:30:47 <\oren\> By the time hitler had decided to go around the maginot line through belgium I already took franfurt, koln and essen
04:31:28 <\oren\> I think I can probably win world war two by 1940
04:32:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Why don't you just start the game half a century earlier and kill baby Hitler?
04:32:28 <hppavilion[1]> Problem solved
04:32:41 <\oren\> the czechs just took vienna. get rekt hitler
04:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Sure, you still have to deal with WWI...)
04:34:07 <\oren\> oh and they took breslau in the north
04:34:30 <\oren\> it's 1938 only. germany hasn't done anything with poland yet
04:34:44 <\oren\> so poland won't join my faction
04:37:59 <FreeFull> \oren\: Napoleon briefly recreated Poland as its own state back when Poland was partitioned between other countries
04:38:26 <FreeFull> But when the napoleonic wars failed, Poland ended up getting partitioned again
04:39:34 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/GetRektHitler.PNG
04:40:48 <FreeFull> So yeah, historically real Poland has had good ties with France
04:40:49 <\oren\> how's that for chease eating surrender monekys!?!
04:40:57 <FreeFull> And horrible luck with Germany and Russia
04:41:39 <\oren\> poland isn't even in the war though. hitler hasn't had enough time because I invaded him instead of gving him the sudetenland
04:42:16 <\oren\> so poland is just chilling, and for some reason he invaded the baltics and annexed them
04:43:03 <\oren\> so on the side, poland curbstomped latvia and lithuania while I was preparing to invade germnay
04:44:22 <FreeFull> Ok
04:44:29 <FreeFull> What will you do about Russia?
04:45:37 <\oren\> no idea. hopefully I can get turkey or poland in my faction so I can have a wider front than just romania
04:46:15 <\oren\> if it's just romania, russia might crush me with sheer numbers of infantry
04:48:52 <\oren\> with a wide front, I can have my cavalry and jeeps run and surround enemy forces quicker than you can say une deux tres
04:49:30 <hppavilion[1]> ...Yep, 'murica is screwed
04:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> Imma start a new political party, I guess.
04:50:52 <\oren\> czech forces are untering dresden
04:51:20 <\oren\> french forces have reached the coast of the nroth sea
04:52:01 -!- Elronnd has left.
04:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> Gary Johnson's position on climate change (I swear, this is 1.0 perunit real): The earth is getting warmer and it's man-made. But the sun will explode in several billion years and destroy the planet anyway, and what's the difference between ending all life on earth in ~200 years vs. several billion? Really?
04:56:36 <\oren\> gary johnson also doesn't know where aleppo is, and can't name a foreign leader he likes
04:57:10 <\oren\> even trump can do both those things. admittedly he likes putin, but hey at least it's an answer
04:57:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah
04:58:13 <hppavilion[1]> Being able to say 'Putin' better than not knowing about Putin
04:58:36 <hppavilion[1]> (AA
04:58:41 <hppavilion[1]> Whoops
04:59:15 <\oren\> wait, hitler made the molotov ribbentop pact NOW?!?! with french tanks in nuremberg?
04:59:32 <\oren\> if poland enters the war he's dead for sure
04:59:42 <hppavilion[1]> Admittedly, only about 0.001 perunit of Americans knew about Aleppo until that happened, but OTOH, 0.001 perunit of americans are RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT
04:59:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Has he started holocausting yet?
05:00:23 <\oren\> not sure.
05:01:21 <\oren\> they don't model that in the game so you don't feel as much an asshole if you play as hitler
05:01:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ...but that's probably the only reason I'd play as Hitler in the first place
05:01:59 <hppavilion[1]> Like, so I can choose who does and doesn't die
05:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Isn't the point of Hitler that he's an asshole?)
05:04:17 <\oren\> in itlay I'v taken milan and genoa now.
05:05:10 <\oren\> oh, and libya is now all mine
05:05:24 <hppavilion[1]> Protip: When siphoning someone else's internet, don't risk them putting a password on their wifi; set the admin password yourself
05:05:28 <\oren\> time to go wouth and liberate ethiopia
05:07:04 <\oren\> speakign of aleppo, france owned aleppo at the time of world war 2
05:07:18 <\oren\> along with all of syria
05:07:34 <\oren\> if they had kept it none of this bullshit would have happened
05:15:13 <FreeFull> Trump elected as president. USA becomes Russia 2
05:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49833&oldid=49760 * Happa * (+289) /* Introductions */
05:18:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Happa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49834 * Happa * (+110) Created page with "An esoteric language developer. Created: * [[Refunge]] (Some others will be added as I create pages for them)"
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05:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: As long as you're in Syria, could you destroy Aleppo?
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05:34:29 <izalove> https://arin.ga/wugdyM/raw someone please compile this on their machine and tell me the results
05:34:58 <izalove> gcc rot256.c; ./a.out < /dev/zero 2>/dev/null
05:35:32 <izalove> takes 20s to run on a crappy laptop
05:37:17 <zzo38> Some more Magic: the Gathering cards I made up now is the cycle of five monocolor Elder Wizards: John Whistlet, Xlif Barpy, Margia Hazmaad, Zonak Masp, Garof Asengia.
05:39:02 <hppavilion[1]> If there were two sounds that were allophones in ALL known languages, would it even be reasonably possible to tell?
05:39:43 <zzo38> I don't know
05:40:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49835 * Happa * (+7537) First version of the page.
05:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> (New Rule: the world 'allophone' is henceforth pronounced [æl ɫoʊ foʊn], making it good for explaining what it is)
05:45:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49836&oldid=49778 * Happa * (+14)
05:47:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Refunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49837 * Hppavilion1 * (+277)
05:48:17 <^v> wana hear what you guys think
05:48:18 <^v> http://hastebin.com/raw/gicalepido
05:49:01 <^v> (assembly that compiles into brainfuck, designed to be generated from a higher level compiler)
05:49:29 <^v> in the sample code i show a working indexable string "type"
05:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> *claps*
05:50:18 <^v> it differentiates itself from existing compilers because it supports (relatively advanced) stack "multiplexing"
05:50:29 <^v> so multiple dynamically sized objects can co-exist
05:51:37 <^v> basically everything here can be implemented without hassle https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
05:52:44 <hppavilion[1]> But can it monoplex?
05:52:51 <^v> hppavilion[1], yes
05:52:57 <hppavilion[1]> Cool
05:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> Can it nullplex?
05:53:13 <^v> yes
05:53:19 <^v> POP ^S
05:53:22 <xkapastel> will it blend?
05:55:00 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: wait, what the b**** is nullplexing?
05:55:50 <^v> hppavilion[1], where the program pops the main stack which causes a singularity that destroys everything
05:55:59 <hppavilion[1]> Oh?
05:56:05 <hppavilion[1]> OK, what's n-plexing exactly?
05:56:18 <^v> (joke)
05:56:38 <^v> n-plexing would just be multiplexing i guess?
05:56:42 <^v> well
05:56:45 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: No
05:56:46 <^v> n includes 1
05:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> OK, it's where multiple signals are merged. Presumably, stack multiplexing is where a bunch of stacks are put together
05:57:54 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: multiplexing includes 1 or any other number; n-plexing is the specific case where you're plexing n signals
05:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> multiplexing is n-plexing for arbitrary n (or for a constrained but otherwise-arbitrary n)
05:58:21 <^v> so you can "push" a group of stacks ontop of another, these stacks are multiplexed together by multiplying the < and > in brainfuck code "seeked" to values on those stacks
05:58:36 <^v> and yes, you can push just 1 stack ontop of another
05:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> monoplexing is the degenerate case of multiplexing that's basically just having one signal, but in a way that implies it COULD be more than one
05:58:57 <^v> useless functionality wise
06:02:19 <^v> the magic happens because its all passive to your code, code originally designed to be used on a single stack system (Brainfuck_algorithms) written in this lang can use variables that exist on different stack levels seamlessly
06:04:33 <^v> you can copy paste for example a bf self-interpreter and it would just use the stack you put it on as if it were its own tape (assuming it doesn't seek backwards :s)
06:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> In math, there's a theorem called the Squeeze Theorem
06:08:36 <hppavilion[1]> Several other languages call it the Two Policemen and a Drunk theorem.
06:08:41 <hppavilion[1]> We're missing out.
06:16:53 <^v> bugs bugs bugs
06:16:57 <^v> i broke stacks somehow
06:22:39 <^v> okay they are fixed, because i hate myself i created 5 completely redundant stacks http://pastebin.com/raw/TqNGLkLC
06:22:47 <^v> code prints "Oii" as expected
06:23:17 <^v> theres no reason stackception + 1 shouldnt work
06:23:42 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: In Polish it seems to be "theorem about three trains"
06:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, MLP:FiM in german is Freundschaft ist Magie. I'll try to find that...
06:24:37 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Oh, three sequences actually
06:24:39 <FreeFull> Same word
06:24:57 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Wat? "sequence" and "train" are the same?
06:25:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, I guess the mathematical word "sequence" was probably taken from "train")
06:25:59 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Actually train is pociąg rather than just ciąg
06:26:08 <FreeFull> So nevermind
06:26:26 <FreeFull> "Theorem about three sequences" is a pretty boring name
06:26:38 <hppavilion[1]> I actually know so little about polish that my knowledge isn't just negative; it's negative AND imaginary.
06:27:07 <hppavilion[1]> (well, imaginary-split-imaginary)
06:27:26 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: So, you've got fairly complex knowledge of Polish? =P
06:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: ...what's the joke here? Is it that polish is horrendously complicated?
06:28:01 <hppavilion[1]> (I need some polish remover...)
06:28:17 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: No, just purely a joke about complex numbers
06:28:24 <hppavilion[1]> Oooooooh
06:28:27 <hppavilion[1]> Right, right
06:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Are we allowed to combine complex and split-complex numbers?
06:28:50 <FreeFull> Do you want to?
06:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> z = a+bi+cj+dji
06:28:54 <hppavilion[1]> Kind of
06:29:15 <FreeFull> Ask a mathematician
06:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> (i^2 = -1, j^2 = 1, j nin ℝ)
06:29:27 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean with "find that"?
06:29:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: pirate.
06:30:13 <hppavilion[1]> Because I don't think there's any way to legally obtain it here
06:30:38 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Mix in dual numbers for extra kick
06:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Considering that.
06:31:01 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Dunno, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercomplex_number
06:31:18 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: When you have that many parts, you need so many coefficients that you almost use 'i' as a coefficient
06:31:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Even the DVDs are probably in a different region)
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06:33:04 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Should be pretty easy to find on the internet
06:33:51 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: yes
06:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> a+bi+cj+dε+fij+giε+hjε+kijε
06:34:41 <FreeFull> That's what we get for abusing the alphabet
06:36:07 <FreeFull> Quaternions don't run into this issue, because ij=k, jk=i and ki = j
06:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I don't understand how that works; what exactly are they?
06:39:40 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: They're all square roots of -1
06:39:48 <FreeFull> i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = ijk = -1
06:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> OK...
06:40:10 <hppavilion[1]> But DIFFERENT square roots?
06:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> Sure
06:40:15 <FreeFull> Yes
06:40:22 <FreeFull> Also, multiplication isn't commutative
06:40:29 <FreeFull> ij = k, ji = -k
06:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So they do 3D rotations, but what if I want 4D rotations?
06:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> Do I use the pentenions?
06:41:37 <FreeFull> I don't think pentenions are a thing
06:41:42 <FreeFull> Just use rotation matrices
06:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> (and if real is for 1D and complex describes 2D, but quaternions are for 3D... what are trinions?)
06:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> (And what's the pattern? nD is done with 2^(n-1)ions?
06:42:26 <hppavilion[1]> )
06:45:41 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: You don't need complex numbers for 2D rotations, a single real number will do
06:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Wait, what?
06:46:15 <FreeFull> Keeping in mind, all rotations are around the origin
06:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember that you rotate in 2D by using x+yz and multiplying various things
06:46:26 <^v> because i super hate myself http://pastebin.com/raw/0YAh76sg
06:46:55 <^v> bar1 bar2 bar3 are level 15 stacks :v
06:47:49 <^v> full sauce, i fixed some things http://pastebin.com/raw/0yu2GFpD
06:47:57 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Yes, there is a connection between complex multiplication and 2D rotations, but the only important thing in 2D rotations is the angle, and you can encode that in a single real number
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06:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> Well yes
06:49:35 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, apparently 'OK' translates into german
06:50:55 <myname> yeah
06:51:01 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Hm, apparently you can represent a 4D rotation using a pair of quaternions
06:51:20 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So probably equivalent octonions
06:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> (or something similar)
06:51:43 <hppavilion[1]> Thus, my conjecture remains valid
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06:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Let us have a moment of silence for the poor M-theorists, who have to use millivigintiquaternions
06:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, a moment of silence on #esoteric is just #esoteric...)
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06:54:46 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: I don't think octionions are connected directly to rotations in R^n for some n
06:55:33 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: One thing that connects real numbers, complex numbers, quaternions and octonions together is the Cayley-Dickson construction
06:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Pair of quaternions. Quaternions have 4 parts, so a pair has 8. I hypothesize that you could equivalently use some 8-dimensional hypercomplex (most likely standard octonions) with identical effect
06:57:13 <myname> the point about octonions is them having 8 parts
06:57:26 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction
06:57:28 <myname> a pair of quaternions does not
06:57:46 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself.
06:59:30 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Which one?
06:59:41 <hppavilion[1]> 'alternative'
07:00:09 <FreeFull> Oh, first sentence
07:00:32 <FreeFull> You could make a comment about it on the talk page or something
07:01:12 <myname> but it's funny
07:04:30 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah
07:04:38 <hppavilion[1]> 'OK, seriously bro, this is the page about it'
07:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> What's really fun is that some operators can be self-distributive: a⁂(b⁂c) = (a⁂b)⁂(a⁂c)
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07:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Do you remember @?
07:36:46 <hppavilion[1]> (It really needs a better name...)
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07:57:44 <myname> that thing where you never fully redefined || correctly?
08:10:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, that thing
08:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> (-1)^2 = @, @ != 1, |x| = sqrt(sum([cof(n)^2 for n in components(x))), where components(x) returns the parts as a list (so components (a+bi) = [a, bi]) and cof(n) is just the coefficient of a number- cof(ki) = k
08:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> New keyboard: latin-greek; normal ASCII, BUT it can also type greek letters on the altgr. Good for mathing.
08:13:22 <hppavilion[1]> s/ASCII/QWERTY/
08:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, supposedly, the reason we use QWERTY is that when we used ABCDEF, keys that were used frequently were close by and would be struck in too rapid succession, leading to mechanical errors. But Germany uses QWERTZ; did Germans use German engineering to overcome the mechanics?
08:15:24 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I presume German has different letter combination frequencies to English
08:15:29 <Taneb> French uses AZERTY
08:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes, that too
08:17:14 <myname> qwertz doesn't make much sense imho
08:17:29 <myname> since tz and zu are pretty common
08:17:48 <myname> but neither are ty or yu nor za/zsg...
08:19:57 <Taneb> Well, in English, re is reasonably common
08:21:29 <myname> well, yeah, but i don't get why germans switched y and z in particular
08:22:28 <myname> combinations with any vowel are reasonably common
08:22:43 <myname> but they have to be somewhere
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08:23:36 <myname> are there third-party layouts for other languages?
08:23:47 <myname> i know dvorak for english and neo for german
08:23:56 <myname> but i am not aware of anything else
08:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm replaciŋ ðe symbol for esh in ðe Eŋgliʃ Reformed Alphabet from ʃ to σ
08:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> Because capital esh is Ʃ
08:24:35 <myname> notable mentions for neo: arrow keys are on the home row
08:24:41 <myname> which is kinda awesome
08:24:51 <myname> but on the other hand, it completely breals hjkl
08:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: My left and up arrow keys don't work for no apparent reason
08:38:00 <hppavilion[1]> https://youtu.be/46ehrFk-gLk?t=37s
08:38:20 <hppavilion[1]> "FACT: The linguist mafia will run you over with a bus if you break your vow of descriptivism"
08:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> ...wtf
08:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently blond and blonde are different words that carry gender
08:46:10 <myname> yeah
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08:49:28 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it's what we get for stealing everything from the French
08:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I hæt grammatical gender...
08:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Even learning German, I'm kind of tempted to reject it as part of ðe language
08:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> If I just call everything neuter (Das), people will probably get it and just get used to it
08:54:49 <myname> and will think of you as a weirdo and will probably try staying away from you
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09:00:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, but you guys are GERMANS
09:00:43 <hppavilion[1]> That basically describes what most Americans think of EVERY german
09:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> (Or Canadian, or Brit, or pretty much anybody, honestly)
09:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> (Wow, we're really pretty isolationist)
09:01:05 <hppavilion[1]> Anyway
09:01:35 <myname> hppavilion[1]: donjt worry the whole world thinks the same about americans
09:01:52 <hppavilion[1]> Fair enough
09:02:09 <hppavilion[1]> ...God. I hate prescriptivism, but I do have to correct people when they use the wrong "the'ir" and "your'e". How do I reconcile this contradiction?
09:02:17 <myname> murrica
09:09:29 <Taneb> @pl \f -> p (f x)
09:09:29 <lambdabot> p . ($ x)
09:32:05 <shachaf> `? octoberlord
09:32:12 <shachaf> `? oerjan
09:32:17 <HackEgo> octoberlord? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:32:18 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
09:32:28 <int-e> `? password
09:32:30 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Bierstubë.
09:32:42 <int-e> ouch.
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10:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> Theorem: There are countably many possible gods (not in the sense of "exists" but in the sense of "yeah, I guess you could make that a religion or something")
11:00:03 <hppavilion[1]> Proof: Each god can described by a finite series of symbols taken from a finite alphabet (in fact, they can be described by several- probably countably many- of these). Sure, most combinations are meaningless, but we'll just ignore those.
11:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> The gods can be trivially mapped surjectively to the natural numbers by taking a holy book describing them, ordering the alphabet (A), and- starting with n=1- for each symbol indexed in A by c, multiplying n by c*|A|^k for each symbol in the book at index k (basically, I'm just using base-whatever)
11:03:24 <hppavilion[1]> Q.E.D.
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11:08:52 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, I want to see calligraphic mathematics...)
11:10:12 <shachaf> The general idea of your proof is obvious to anyone who knows enough to understand it.
11:10:23 <shachaf> Except for the first sentence, which is an unfounded assumption.
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11:18:35 <hppavilion[1]> What branch of Philosophy covers humor? The best I can think of is Aesthetics, but I wouldn't exactly call a Priest and a Rabbi walking into a bar 'beautiful'
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11:36:15 <myname> why would you put that in philosophy in the first place?
11:43:04 <myname> did you ever read snow crash?
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12:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> Factorial is to subfactorial as triangle numbers are to what?
12:11:28 <izalove> subtriangles
12:12:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: go read snow crash
12:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...why?
12:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes, but... what do subtriangles even describe?
12:13:05 <myname> it's one of the basic books for computer scientists
12:13:09 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
12:13:17 <myname> together with douglas adams trilogy
12:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> Trilogy? I seem to remember there being 5, plus the salmon of doubt
12:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> Of which I own all of them
12:13:48 <izalove> also called the trilogy in 5 parts
12:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, sure, that works
12:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> x triangltorial is the sum of all integers from 0 to x, which is equal to x(x-1)/2
12:14:22 <myname> in german it's often called "vierteilige trilogie in 5 bänden"
12:14:45 <myname> so, 4 parts of a trilogy in 5 books
12:15:30 <int-e> In English there's the "fifth book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhikers Trilogy"
12:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
12:17:10 <int-e> And apparently also "A trilogy in four parts".
12:17:22 <hppavilion[1]> A formula exists that subfact(x) = fact(x) * summ(0, x, lambda n: (-1)^n/fact(n))
12:17:52 <hppavilion[1]> Would subgamma (generalized subfactorial the same way gamma is generalized factorial) be the same, but s/fact/gamma/?
12:19:41 <myname> you're still not reading snow crash
12:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not yet
12:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> Unless it's available for free online, no
12:20:41 <hppavilion[1]> It's 11:20. I'm not going to go buy a book.
12:20:49 <myname> well, depends on where you look for it
12:20:55 <hppavilion[1]> (11:20 UTC; I'm @ UTC-9)
12:20:57 <int-e> Don't give hppavilion[1] interesting things to read; I might have to unignore him...
12:21:05 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, what?
12:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> Is int-e ignoring me?
12:21:26 <myname> int-e: lol
12:21:42 <myname> but you seem to know that book
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12:22:18 <nothppavilion> int-e: mwahahahaha
12:22:54 <nothppavilion> But no, really, am I (a) on ignore and (b) why and (c) your client ignores hostnames, doesn't it?
12:23:33 <hppavilion[1]> So as I was saying
12:23:36 <myname> to be fair, you spam a lot
12:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not spam; incoherently babble
12:24:00 <myname> also, you make it intentionally harder to communicate with you
12:24:06 <hppavilion[1]> Totally different, much more annoying
12:24:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: When?
12:25:07 <myname> like when yountry to make your own alphabet
12:25:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't use ERA in #esoteric at the request of people whose clients don't like unicode
12:26:00 <myname> you did like in the last 24 hours at least
12:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> I use it literally everywhere else though, and an eth occasionally manages to slip out
12:27:11 <myname> i wonder why people don't hate you elsewhere
12:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> Because eths are literally everywhere when writing; "the", "this", "that", "there", "they", "them", etc.
12:27:21 <int-e> myname: I've not read Snow Crash, I believe.
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12:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> Who says they don't?
12:27:38 <myname> int-e: do it
12:28:16 <hppavilion[1]> e = summ(0, inf, λ n -> 1/n!)
12:28:24 <hppavilion[1]> s/n!/fact(n)/
12:29:20 <hppavilion[1]> u = summ(0, inf, λ n -> 1/subfact(n), λ n -> n ≠ 1)
12:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> (I wonder if the sum of reciprocal triangle numbers is significant)
12:31:28 <int-e> actually I probably have read it, but I remember very little about it.
12:33:12 <int-e> Maybe all the memes taken over by Daniel Suarez' Daemon series (there's some thematic overlap).
12:34:00 <hppavilion[1]> ...the limit of the reciprocal triangular sum is 2
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12:36:22 <int-e> And then there's Gibson (Neuromancer)
12:44:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49838&oldid=39253 * Martin Ender * (+39)
12:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, ((positive) integer) powers are closely related to n-cubes
12:45:14 <hppavilion[1]> I want the same, but for n-tetrahedrons
12:45:57 <hppavilion[1]> (mainly so, while you can say "x squared" for x to the power 2, you can say "x triangled" for x to the whatever-this-is 2
12:47:06 <fizzie> Huh, that felt weird. Python's pip thing used a progress bar that went all ▏ ▎ ▍ ▌ ▋ ▊ ▉ █ smoothly.
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12:54:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Swordfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49839 * Martin Ender * (+223) Created page with "This is tagged as Implemented, but I can't seem to be able to find an implementation. Is an interpreter available somewhere? --~~~~"
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12:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> The 8th 5-tetrahedral number is 792.
12:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> I am god
13:00:40 <myname> you are not
13:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: shhhhhh
13:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> This is the feeling you get when you use computers
13:08:08 <hppavilion[1]> The Golden Triangle Number is 2.118033988749895
13:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> (no relation to the golden triangle)
13:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> (probably)
13:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> I would make a great hippie...
13:26:36 <myname> indeed
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13:35:53 <boily> `wisdom
13:36:01 <HackEgo> bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
13:42:10 <boily> @massages-loud
13:42:11 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] asked 9h 36m 20s ago: Do you keep a backup mapole in the channel when you aren't here?
13:42:42 <boily> hppavellon[1]! no, but that's a good idea!
13:42:49 <hppavilion[1]> Yay!
13:42:58 <boily> to whom shall I entrust my trusty mapole?
13:43:00 <hppavilion[1]> Put it over by the hat rack.
13:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> Also, we need a hat rack.
13:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> Can mapoles be used as hat racks?
13:43:36 <boily> you can do anything with a mapole.
13:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> I wish https://xkcd.com/136/ was real... I would read that paper.
13:45:54 <hppavilion[1]> According to wikipedia: "A person who performs cunnilingus may be referred to as a cunnilinguist."
13:46:06 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a field called cunnilinguistics?
13:47:58 <hppavilion[1]> cunniproto-indo-european
13:48:09 <boily> would that imply making sounds while you're performing?
13:50:41 <hppavilion[1]> No?
13:59:16 <myname> that quote is genius
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14:25:43 <boily> > 3 / 5 + pi / (7 - pi)
14:25:45 <lambdabot> 1.4142200580539208
14:27:00 <myname> but why?
14:32:11 <boily> I have no fungotting idea.
14:32:12 <fungot> boily: e333 you can't manage that, the `next' act too much like `come from' and/ or modify this document under the gnu autoconf ( configure); its autoconf source code), and one of them may be a clue that you don't put it?
14:34:52 <quintopia> boily: package resent yesterday
14:34:58 <quintopia> i have tracking
14:40:54 <myname> you may approximate pi by 3+(3/5+pi/(7-pi))/10
14:45:48 <quintopia> `le/rn amphiboily/Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
14:45:51 <HackEgo> Learned «amphiboily»
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14:51:27 <boily> Y'avait a girl from Gatineau deux nuits que j'était en vacation. Probablement le code switch le plus mind bending que j'ai jamais entendu.
14:52:52 <boily> En plus qu'elle teachait l'anglais in Korea, et qu'elle translatait du coréen en cantonese au monde à l'auberge.
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16:29:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49840&oldid=49028 * Conor O'Brien * (+27) /* Languages I have made */
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17:46:37 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself. <-- someone back in 2014 did a faulty merge, presumably because they didn't understand that "algebra" has several meanings. i fixed it.
17:46:37 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
17:46:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:47:06 <oerjan> int-e: any chance of removing that stupid feature
17:48:36 <oerjan> int-e: (the lambdabot lines contain a nick you're ignoring, in case you're confused)
17:50:46 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] also if you want any more @tells, remove that stupid response twh
17:50:46 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
17:50:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:10:08 <oerjan> `? amphiboily
18:10:13 <HackEgo> Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
18:10:38 <oerjan> `slwd amphiboily//s/F/Amphiboily is F/
18:10:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
18:11:07 <oerjan> `slwd amphiboily//s/$/./
18:11:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
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18:27:35 <int-e> oerjan: probably won't remove it; it's actually working as intended: it allows people to let other people know that they don't want @tell messages
18:28:18 <int-e> (I forgot who requested it though, and I wouldn't go out of my way to advertise the feature)
18:29:12 <int-e> Yay, I finally got a Nikoli competition puzzle right in the first attempt. I failed to do that for the two previous ones...
18:29:30 <oerjan> congrats ->
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18:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RubE On Conveyor Belts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49841&oldid=44824 * Martin Ender * (+40)
18:45:06 <zzo38> I think goto command ought to be added into JavaScript and a few others of the good feature from C, which also has macro preprocessor and setjmp/longjmp. Although, in JavaScript it could be made a better way than the C way.
18:46:04 <zzo38> With sufficiently general macros, call/cc could be implemented in strict mode.
18:47:03 <ais523> how much of the JavaScript state would be "inside" the continuation, and how much would be global?
18:49:12 <zzo38> Local variables might be inside, if it is declared inside of a continuation function, otherwise it isn't.
18:49:33 <zzo38> You would have to declare individual functions as continuation functions if it were to be implemented entirely with macros.
18:50:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minkolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49842&oldid=44756 * Martin Ender * (+66)
18:50:31 <zzo38> (But you could also make some local variables "outside" of the continuation if you wanted to, as well; depending how it is implemented)
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19:54:44 <myname> how would you think a multiplayer mode for a df like should work? all i can figure out is something like a time terminated 1vs1 or the like
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20:16:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49843 * ETHproductions * (+4580) Created page with "'''Cubix''' is a stack-based 2-dimensional language where the code is wrapped around a cube. == Overview == Cubix was inspired by [[Labyrinth]] and [[Hexagony]], both stack-..."
20:21:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:ETHproductions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49844 * ETHproductions * (+343) Added user page for ETHproductions
20:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49845&oldid=49836 * ETHproductions * (+12) Added Cubix to language list
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20:33:26 <zzo38> Apparently tail calls are not yet implemented in Node.js
20:36:00 <shachaf> "return f();" is an error?
20:37:51 <quintopia> who was it who was asking about the cost of finding the set of strings that are within a certain levdnshtein distance?
20:37:55 <zzo38> No, it is valid, but it is not implemented as a tail call.
20:38:17 <zzo38> The program will do the correct thing but it is not as efficient as it should be.
20:38:51 <zzo38> (And in some cases may result in a stack overflow if tail calls are not implemented.)
20:38:54 <quintopia> this algorithm has a much faster average case: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-programming-algorithm-that-you-have-ever-created/answer/Leo-Polovets?srid=i3Gd&share=82807028
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21:19:13 <quintopia> hellais523
21:19:21 <ais523> hi
21:19:44 <quintopia> whats your ale of choice
21:22:22 <ais523> I don't drink alcohol; I don't like the taste
21:22:31 * APic too.
21:22:44 <ais523> (I realised this after trying both alcoholic and non-alcoholic wine and preferring the non-alcoholic wine)
21:24:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's a valid comparison, I'm sure there could be other differences between the wines in question.
21:24:57 <APic> True.
21:29:22 <shachaf> Is non-alcoholic wine grape juice?
21:29:35 <shachaf> I suppose not.
21:30:13 <shachaf> I should try non-alcoholic wine.
21:30:23 <APic> True.
21:32:51 <int-e> no, the alcohol is removed after fermentation... in particular most of the sugar will still be gone
21:34:10 <int-e> http://winefolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/non-alcoholic-wine-reverse-osmosis.png looks plausible
21:37:18 <zzo38> I think they say "goto" is not a reserved word in JavaScript anymore and therefore you can't add a goto statement, but I think it is not a problem as long as it doesn't accept a computed goto and there is no line break between the word "goto" and the name of the label to go to. If it is a problem though, you could use the keyword "->" instead perhaps.
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21:44:40 <quintopia> thats too bad
21:44:53 <quintopia> wine != ale
21:46:55 <APic> True.
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21:58:00 <zzo38> I have the idea about making macros in JavaScript, which would involve some new kind of syntax: \{ ... } executes statements in a macro context, \( ... ) executes an expression in a macro context (the value of the expression is expected to be either a string or a AST object), (| ... |) makes a expression AST object, {| ... |} makes a statement AST object. Do you like this?
22:03:16 <zzo38> (It is somewhat like Template Haskell.)
22:14:01 * quintopia wonders if APic says more than one word at a time
22:14:13 <APic> No Idea.
22:14:36 <quintopia> wow. three whole syllables
22:14:45 <quintopia> its a pb
22:15:06 <APic> Playmate?
22:15:47 <quintopia> personal best
22:16:45 <APic> Okay.
22:19:19 <quintopia> what do?
22:21:21 <int-e> `? APic
22:21:29 <HackEgo> APic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:22:51 <quintopia> i pog5rammed a pic once
22:22:59 <quintopia> programmed
22:23:04 <int-e> I'm thinking "a picture", but it must be wrong: A picture says more than a thousand words.
22:23:42 <APic> HackEgo: 🙌
22:23:43 <quintopia> i was thinking programmable integrated circuit
22:23:57 <quintopia> or whatever PIC stands for
22:24:05 <int-e> quintopia: APIC = advanced programmable interrupt controller
22:24:42 <quintopia> programmable interface controller
22:24:54 <quintopia> or
22:24:57 <quintopia> uh
22:25:00 <APic> Thank You.
22:25:03 <Zarutian> pesky interrupting cohort.
22:25:07 <APic> *shrug*
22:25:13 <quintopia> peripheral interface controller
22:25:19 <quintopia> actually
22:25:29 <quintopia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller
22:25:31 <int-e> people can't memorize computer industry acronyms
22:25:34 <APic> Good old Times. ☺
22:25:49 <APic> int-e: True.
22:25:52 <quintopia> 39
22:26:20 <quintopia> more emoji pls
22:26:37 <int-e> APic: quite old joke :)
22:26:41 <Zarutian> int-e: because there are so many of them and with contradictory expansions.
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22:27:18 <quintopia> int-e i didnt notice the pcmcia until you said ir was a joke
22:27:30 <int-e> (what was it, PC memory card industry association?)
22:27:31 <quintopia> pcmica
22:27:46 <quintopia> pmiaca
22:27:54 <quintopia> campia
22:27:55 <int-e> no, international. close though.
22:27:57 <quintopia> thats it
22:28:24 <quintopia> pcpcpcpca
22:28:52 <zzo38> I am making program to save JavaScript objects into a file and then to be able to load them from a file.
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22:29:14 <quintopia> why do you find json insufficient?
22:29:41 <zzo38> JSON can work for some things.
22:30:01 <quintopia> and you can convert anything into those some things
22:30:03 <zzo38> But, JSON cannot store all JavaScript values; for example it cannot store multiple references to the same object.
22:30:17 <zzo38> It is also inefficient when using ArrayBuffers.
22:30:40 <quintopia> really
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22:31:12 <quintopia> what are your plans for security
22:31:42 <zzo38> The program I am making uses a binary file format rather than text, so names of keys do not need to be repeated. Also it can contain references to objects and symbols from outside.
22:32:35 <zzo38> If you want security you can omit the external types you don't want. Note that functions cannot be serialized in this format, anyways. So there are still some limitations; but it can encode a lot more than JSON.
22:34:38 <Zarutian> zzo38: encycle.js or some such by Crockford iirc has ibid refs for internal references in object graphs serialized to JSON
22:35:16 <zzo38> O, OK, but I am making my own now anyways. I wrote half of it already.
22:36:49 <zzo38> (Also, my program is not pure JavaScript and requires Node.js)
22:37:02 <Zarutian> zzo38: external types? are those like the module and class names in pickling in python?
22:37:40 <APic> +
22:38:07 <zzo38> I don't know about pickling. External type in my program is what you can associate an object with a function, and when it tries to serialize an object with that prototype it will emit a header and then call the named function in order to do so.
22:38:35 <zzo38> So in that way you can serialize objects that have internal slots.
22:39:16 <Zarutian> zzo38: oh so like an unevaler in http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Safe_Serialization_Under_Mutual_Suspicion then?
22:39:37 <zzo38> (Or, if you have some global variable in your program which needs to keep track of all objects of a specified type, for some reason.)
22:39:48 <Zarutian> zzo38: what is in this header? the name of the function?
22:40:09 <zzo38> (And a further use of this is to encode the object more efficiently.)
22:40:38 <zzo38> Zarutian: No; it is a number that identifies the function. You must define the same external objects/symbols and external types for writing as you do for reading.
22:42:19 <Zarutian> zzo38: I see, so you are stepping around the 'run this arbritrary chosen (by name) function to deserialize this object' by using that num2extobjtype scheme
22:42:37 <zzo38> Yes.
22:42:42 <Zarutian> zzo38: which means that one can implement graph exits in your format easily
22:45:23 <Zarutian> (for the cases where you want a serialize an object graph where some objects are pointing to unserializable objects whose replacements will exists at deserialization time.)
22:45:29 <zzo38> (Also, the implementation of this serializer does not even know the names of any functions; it only associates each of the objects defined as an external type with a number and a function. It can then read it either by number or by object as the key. Storing a number also will make the file smaller than storing the name of the function anyways, and the function might not even have a name; nor does it necessarily have access to the correct context e
22:45:41 <zzo38> Zarutian: Yes, you can do that.
22:46:38 <Zarutian> zzo38: got any documentation on this format yet?
22:47:31 <zzo38> Not published; I only have it hand-written in a book. I will publish on computer once this program is published, though.
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22:49:45 <Zarutian> zzo38: got a smartphone handy with a camera? I am rather curious how this format looks
22:50:17 <zzo38> I haven't any; sorry.
22:51:49 <quintopia> its okay
22:52:04 <quintopia> everyone knows you finish what you start
22:52:05 <zzo38> You can wait until it is published and then you can read it.
22:53:03 <Zarutian> quintopia: why do you think I am asking for pictures, eh?
22:53:34 <quintopia> cuz ur rude?
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22:55:24 <Zarutian> quintopia: that too.
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23:17:43 <Zarutian> quintopia: so, I am asking you this: putting obsticales such as ASLR and others of the same kind is increasing computer security in your eyes?
23:18:32 <Zarutian> quintopia: a rude probing question but should be (thought) provoking, no?
23:18:53 <zzo38> ASLR meaning what?
23:19:47 <Zarutian> Address Space Layout Randomization
23:20:10 <zzo38> OK
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23:21:55 <zzo38> I think it is just complicating stuff, and that other methods can be used for memory protection.
23:22:48 <zzo38> An option to randomize addresses for a compiled program in a compiler can help with finding errors though.
23:24:07 <Zarutian> it is an inaffective bandaid on the festering fleshwound that is due to idotic choices made way way back in the day.
23:24:44 <Zarutian> zzo38: why does randomizing addresses for a compiled progam held with finding errors?
23:24:59 <Zarutian> s/held/help/
23:26:18 <zzo38> To see if something incorrectly accesses a wrong address by using invalid array indexing or whatever (although there are other ways to do this too, but these other ways might cause the program to run more slowly). However, such option should be used only during testing.
23:26:20 <Zarutian> btw next level in 'fuzzing' is probably something like adaptive markov-chain-generated fuzzing.
23:27:49 <Zarutian> (eliminate those fuzzes that are caught early by the program until you basically are banging against the edge cases)
23:27:57 <zzo38> I think the "Future Systems" 128-bit processor might be capable of detecting invalid pointers though.
23:28:39 <Zarutian> zzo38: not so much future as being an sparse capability system in disguise, I would think.
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23:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> Analogy clause of the day: minority:majority::?:plurality
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23:51:22 <quintopia> helloerjan
23:51:48 <quintopia> Zarutian: i dont know
23:52:15 <oerjan> i hope that " wasn't supposed to be there.
23:52:27 <oerjan> quintophia
23:53:24 <izalove> do you know any good site for downloading anime subs?
23:53:26 <izalove> only the subs
23:53:30 <izalove> i have the anime
23:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> @massages-screamed
23:53:49 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
23:53:54 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-proud
23:53:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 7m 17s ago: <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself. <-- someone back in 2014 did a faulty merge, presumably because
23:53:54 <lambdabot> they didn't understand that "algebra" has several meanings. i fixed it.
23:53:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 3m 7s ago: also if you want any more @tells, remove that stupid response twh
23:54:21 <hppavilion[1]> @clear-auto-reply
23:54:21 <lambdabot> Auto-reply message cleared.
23:54:27 <oerjan> thank you.
23:54:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The Neverchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented sevence | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
23:58:02 <oerjan> huh "count" and "compute" are cognates.
23:58:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...what's cognate?
23:58:28 <oerjan> @wn cognate
23:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> ...huh
23:58:30 <lambdabot> *** "cognate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:58:30 <lambdabot> cognate
23:58:30 <lambdabot> adj 1: related in nature; "connate qualities" [syn: {connate},
23:58:30 <lambdabot> {cognate}]
23:58:30 <lambdabot> 2: having the same ancestral language; "cognate languages"
23:58:32 <lambdabot> [8 @more lines]
23:58:38 <hppavilion[1]> Common etymological origin
23:58:40 <hppavilion[1]> ...cool?
2016-10-02
00:00:13 <jeffl35> @more
00:00:13 <lambdabot> 3: related by blood [syn: {akin(p)}, {blood-related}, {cognate},
00:00:13 <lambdabot> {consanguine}, {consanguineous}, {consanguineal}, {kin(p)}]
00:00:13 <lambdabot> n 1: one related by blood or origin; especially on sharing an
00:00:13 <lambdabot> ancestor with another [syn: {blood relation}, {blood
00:00:13 <lambdabot> relative}, {cognate}, {sib}]
00:00:15 <lambdabot> [3 @more lines]
00:00:18 <jeffl35> @more
00:00:18 <lambdabot> 2: a word is cognate with another if both derive from the same
00:00:19 <lambdabot> word in an ancestral language [syn: {cognate}, {cognate
00:00:21 <lambdabot> word}]
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00:02:48 <quintopia> wb ais523
00:07:17 <hppavilion[1]> @moar
00:07:17 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: his1315
00:07:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: more metar
00:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> @le/rn moar/more
00:08:17 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell
00:08:22 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait.
00:08:50 <oerjan> `? weather
00:08:52 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
00:08:56 <lambdabot> CYUL 012300Z 13011KT 15SM BKN064 BKN110 OVC240 15/11 A3021 RMK SC5AC2CI1 SLP231 \ ENVA 012250Z 29007KT 8000 -RADZ FEW016 BKN029 07/05 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 29007KT \ ESSB 012250Z AUTO 00000KT 9999
00:08:56 <lambdabot> NCD 05/05 Q1011 \ KOAK 012253Z 28016KT 10SM FEW012 21/11 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP180 T02110111
00:12:36 <quintopia> why isnt KATL on the list
00:15:22 <izalove> i just came to the conclusion that watching anime in 1080p is better than watching it in crappy quality
00:15:26 <izalove> it took a while
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00:52:05 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: minority:majoity::singularity:plurality
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01:36:22 <zzo38> I had idea about a new selection for use with X called MEDIA_PLAYER and it is intended that a program that plays music or something else might own it (the user should be allowed to change whether or not they do, though; in case they are running more than one). Many (but not all) of the standard selection targets of ICCCM can be used with it, although additional targets can be defined to tell it to play, pause, rewind, next track, eject, etc.
01:42:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't understand what you said. But that's probably fine.
01:42:27 <wob_jonas> It's late in the night, I wouldn't understand it even if it made sense.
01:42:34 <wob_jonas> fungot, can you jump in?
01:42:34 <fungot> wob_jonas: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions all versions no all versions all versions
01:43:32 <shachaf> `quote TIMES
01:43:42 <HackEgo> 33) <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective \ 59) <oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program \ 109) <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand h
01:43:50 <shachaf> `quote INVISIBLE TIMES
01:43:52 <HackEgo> 997) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
01:44:07 <shachaf> May you live in CIRCLED TIMES.
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01:53:25 <zzo38> WATCH and UNWATCH targets could also be implemented in case a program is being used which will notify using Twitter or other internet services what music the user is listening to, or if the status bar will display the currently playing music.
01:54:38 <zzo38> There are many other things that can be done with it too.
01:55:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know how to tell whether d^2x = 0?
01:56:21 <zzo38> shachaf: No (but I didn't think about it now)
01:56:47 <shachaf> When did you think about it?
01:57:06 <zzo38> I don't remember
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02:10:20 <zzo38> One way that was used to implement private properties in JavaScript is to make them local variables of the constructor function (and define the methods that use them in the constructor instead of the prototype), and that still can be used. But now there is also the new way which is by using WeakMap; in this way the property can even belong to a different module than who created the object. You can also create anonymous public properties of objects.
02:11:23 <zzo38> I am not sure how useful anonymous public properties are, but it is a possibility. Maybe you know about the uses of such?
02:21:26 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYOtZvwNCsc
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02:38:34 <zzo38> How often have you seen "throw" in JavaScript (or possibly, other programming languages too) used for something other than in case of errors?
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03:03:56 <\oren\> zzo38: I have seen it used as a multi-loop break
03:06:54 <zzo38> Yes, that is one thing; I have used it as a multi recursive function break (for searching in a tree structure). How common is it though?
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04:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> Question: Would it be incorrect to refer to the British liberal party as "Labor" in the US?
04:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> (Answer: Probably yes)
04:25:53 <ais523> what do you mean by "liberal" here?
04:25:54 <hppavilion[1]> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Mazda3-pi.jpg
04:26:22 <ais523> are you talking about the current opposition party Labour? the Liberal Democrats, who have Liberal in their name? parties generically on the left wing, and if so compared to which country?
04:26:45 <ais523> all our even remotely major parties are left wing compared to the US centre, except possibly UKIP
04:35:37 <hppavilion[1]> "This house has 2.5 baths (house has 5 rooms with a toilet and sink))"
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05:11:09 <shachaf> Cale: What would you say the individual entries in a matrix represent?
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06:05:19 <zzo38> In what matrix?
06:05:37 <shachaf> A matrix representing a linear transformation : R^n -> R^m
06:11:10 <Cale> shachaf: Okay, so first of all, the columns of the matrix tell you where each of the basis vectors get sent
06:11:34 <Cale> (the basis vectors of the domain of course)
06:11:42 <Cale> and each column tells you the coefficients with respect to the basis of the codomain
06:11:59 <shachaf> What I would have said was that, for T : U -> V, you choose a basis for U and V. Then you look at Tu for each u in u, and decompose it in terms of V.
06:12:12 <Cale> yeah
06:12:14 <shachaf> (A linear combination of vectors in V.)
06:12:29 <Cale> for each u in the basis for U
06:12:37 <shachaf> Er, yes.
06:12:54 <Cale> and each such decomposition gives a column
06:12:58 <shachaf> And since every vector in U is a linear combination of the vectors in the basis for U, that tells you how T transforms every vector.
06:13:02 <Cale> yep
06:13:44 <shachaf> So an individual entry is one V-basis-projection of one U-basis-vector under T.
06:13:48 <shachaf> Or something like that.
06:14:26 <shachaf> Anyway the other day someone was saying that the individual entries actually represent linear maps : F -> F, not elements of F.
06:14:50 <Cale> heh, well, it's possible to look at it like that
06:15:00 <shachaf> If you have T : U -> V where U and V are finite-dimensional vector spaces over F, then you have U = F+F+...+F, V = FxFx...xF
06:15:44 <shachaf> And since Hom(A+B, CxD) is in natural isomorphism with Hom(A, C)xHom(A, D)xHom(B, C)xHom(B, D), those are the individual entries in the matrix.
06:15:48 <Cale> Yeah, you can look at it as a block matrix made up of 1x1 blocks :P
06:16:04 <shachaf> Right, so I should understand block matrices better probably.
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06:17:19 <shachaf> For example maybe you'd expect det([A B][C D]) to be det(A)det(D) - det(B)det(C), but that sort of thing doesn't work.
06:17:28 <zzo38> One day I invented "matrix accounting"
06:17:45 <hppavilion[1]> @tell ais523 Oh, I meant Labour
06:17:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
06:19:23 <shachaf> Cale: Anyway, is it a choice of bases for U and V, or for U* and V?
06:19:56 <shachaf> Given that T is contravariant in U.
06:20:04 <zzo38> Which is quite a different use of matrix mathematics although involving much of the same mathematics involved including such things as orthogonal vectors and homogeneous coordinates and so on.
06:20:18 <shachaf> You can presumably say that T behaves the same as U* ⊗ V?
06:20:33 <shachaf> zzo38: I thought it was just a typical use.
06:21:47 <Cale> shachaf: Yeah, it's really V ⊗ U*
06:22:13 <shachaf> But maybe it doesn't matter whether you choose a basis for U or U*, since if you have a basis you can go back and forth?
06:22:15 <Cale> (if you put the U* on that side, it'll make things nice when you write the formula for application)
06:22:25 <Cale> yeah, in finite dimensions
06:23:02 <zzo38> shachaf: The mathematics are same but it is a different use than geometry or physics; it is now for accounting (I invented it sort of by accident while trying to invent something else, because I had nothing else to do in school).
06:24:03 <shachaf> Formula for application?
06:28:23 <zzo38> I don't know what is "formula for application" either
06:34:03 <Cale> shachaf: Well, when you write the linear transformation as a sum of pure tensor products
06:38:16 <Cale> If {b_1,...,b_n} is a basis of U and {f_1,...,f_n} is the corresponding basis for U*, and {c_1,...,c_m} is a basis for V, then you might write an arbitrary linear transformation T as sum over i, j of a_ij c_i ⊗ f_j
06:42:21 <Cale> and then (sum over i,j of a_ij c_i ⊗ f_j)*(sum over k of u_k b_k) = sum over i,j,k of a_ij c_i u_k f_j(b_k), and f_j(b_k) is 0 whenever j /= k, so we get sum over i,j of a_ij u_j c_i
06:42:40 <Cale> anyway, it's just nice somehow that the linear functional bumps up against the vector it's getting applied to :)
06:45:06 <shachaf> I guess that sometimes people write some of those subscripts as superscripts?
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09:07:07 <zzo38> I almost finished writing the documentation for my JavaScript serializer program and for its file format, and I will post it tomorrow. (The code is finish but need tested)
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09:36:02 <int-e> Why do people get excited over having a bright future ahead of them? For most of them that happens EVERY SINGLE NIGHT!
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09:50:42 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> I guess that sometimes people write some of those subscripts as superscripts? <-- look up einstein notation hth
09:50:42 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:51:03 <shachaf> @passages-loud
09:51:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 21s ago: <shachaf> I guess that sometimes people write some of those subscripts as superscripts? <-- look up einstein notation hth
09:51:20 <shachaf> that notation is scow hth
09:51:57 <oerjan> i'm sorry but it was invented by einstein so it is clearly brilliant hth
09:54:04 -!- int-e has set topic: The cargo cultivating channel | This counter has been incremented sevence and decremented once | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
09:54:23 <oerjan> eek
09:55:18 <oerjan> a little multiplication now, and we can no longer deduce its value
09:57:26 <int-e> I don't know what its initial value was, I'm assuming 42.
09:57:35 <oerjan> oh, true
09:58:32 <int-e> (What is the chance that a person wondering about a counter's initial value is a programmer?)
09:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Whom_the_Bell_Tolls_(disambiguation) links to songs by both the Bee Gees AND Metallica
09:58:55 <hppavilion[1]> What a strange world we live in
10:04:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The cargo cultivating channel | This counter has been incremented snyevence and decremented once | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
10:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> (snyeven: written as a 7 with a tilde above it.)
10:06:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: The cargo cultivating channel | This counter has been incremented scowvence and decremented once | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
10:08:30 <int-e> Sweet imaginary numbers!
10:15:33 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: No, snyeven squared is just fnyorty nyine.
10:21:06 <oerjan> . o O ( is hppavilion[1] an imaginary person )
10:21:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: nyes
10:22:56 <hppavilion[1]> 207̃012. That's what I'm looking for
10:23:07 <hppavilion[1]> In 207̃012, the earth is ruled by the Time Baby
10:26:03 -!- shachaf has set topic: The cargo cultivating channel | This counter has been incremented zero times, decremented zero times, and reset once | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
10:26:27 <shachaf> Hmm, I didn't reset it properly.
10:26:44 -!- shachaf has set topic: The cargo cultivating channel | This counter has never been incremented, decremented, or reset | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
10:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, reset is accounted for after the variables are cleared
10:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> So it's always 'reset once'
10:28:17 <shachaf> obviously not hth
10:28:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: The cargo cultivating channel | This counter has been divided by zero | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
10:31:00 <int-e> . o O ( This counter has been )
10:31:47 <oerjan> . o O ( This counter is pining for the fjords )
10:33:02 <int-e> I hope you're not going to parrot that whole skit.
10:34:19 <oerjan> . o O ( Mike the Headless Counter )
10:36:31 <oerjan> . o O ( I guess this Norwegian blue it )
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10:39:48 <shachaf> /quit Nite
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11:07:16 <oerjan> @tell shachaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_index_notation
11:07:16 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:12:19 <myname> why not kThis has a counter"
11:12:27 <myname> i like it vague
11:13:03 <myname> s/k/"/
11:13:08 <myname> fuck longpress
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15:33:11 <oerjan> bood afternoily
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15:46:16 <boily> bon matørjan!
15:46:24 <boily> `relcome wanderman
15:46:38 <wanderman> :)
15:46:46 <zgrep> \oren\: Black on blue is difficult to read, and thus means it's a terrible choice for a heading. :P
15:46:59 <HackEgo> wanderman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:47:17 <wanderman> interesting
15:47:23 <wanderman> never heard of eso langauge before
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16:12:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Orthagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49846&oldid=22619 * Martin Ender * (+127) /* External resources */
16:32:50 <boily> `wisdom
16:32:55 <HackEgo> and//And is an Intercal operator.
16:34:37 <oerjan> `cwlprits and
16:34:50 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse b_jonas b_jonas
16:35:59 <oerjan> `slwd and//s/op/unary op/
16:36:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/and//And is an Intercal unary operator.
16:36:46 <oerjan> `? or
16:36:49 <HackEgo> Or is an Intercal operator.
16:37:01 <oerjan> `slwd or//s/op/unary op/
16:37:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/or//Or is an Intercal unary operator.
16:37:05 <oerjan> `? xor
16:37:08 <HackEgo> xor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:38:47 <oerjan> `learn Xor is just addition of nimbers.
16:38:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'xor': Xor is just addition of nimbers.
16:44:06 <wanderman> '? love
16:44:12 <wanderman> `? love
16:44:13 <HackEgo> Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more
16:44:37 <wanderman> `? hurt
16:44:40 <HackEgo> hurt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:45:24 <wanderman> '? compuer
16:45:27 <wanderman> ` computer
16:45:27 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
16:45:43 <wanderman> `? computer
16:45:44 <HackEgo> Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'.
16:45:59 <oerjan> `cwlprits computer
16:46:09 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan
16:46:23 <oerjan> ...why did i add that...
16:46:25 <wanderman> what cwlprit mean ? oerjan
16:46:28 <oerjan> oh wait
16:46:40 <oerjan> `howg computer
16:46:46 <HackEgo> ​<fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters \'1\' and \'0\'. \ <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the charatcers \'1\' and \'0\'
16:46:48 <oerjan> wanderman: it tells who has edited it
16:46:57 <wanderman> i see
16:47:05 <oerjan> huh i actually did add it.
16:47:14 <oerjan> `dowg computer
16:47:20 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-03-08 <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters \'1\' and \'0\'. \ 2016-03-08 <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the charatcers \'1\' and \'0\'
16:48:52 <wanderman> `? jesus
16:48:53 <HackEgo> jesus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:51:01 <oerjan> and it sort of made sense at the time.
16:52:33 <ybden> `? dowg
16:52:34 <HackEgo> dowg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:52:41 <ybden> `cat dowg
16:52:42 <HackEgo> cat: dowg: No such file or directory
16:52:46 <ybden> `cat bin/dowg
16:52:47 <HackEgo> doag "wisdom/$1"
16:52:52 <ybden> `cat bin/doag
16:52:52 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
16:53:08 <boily> fungot: nostril.
16:53:08 <fungot> boily: please note that this will be created. note that this behaviour was not implemented have been likewise implemented in c-intercal, such as the output random pad with random bits ( 16 if the `try again' command ( correct as of the format created by the generated code, and also obey the extra grouping rules
16:53:17 <ybden> fungot: nostril.
16:53:17 <fungot> ybden: expansion libraries without having to install at all. if a onespot variable, it will identify both 16- and 32-bit values as long as at most one of those places).
16:53:22 <ybden> oh, it's different each time
16:53:33 <ybden> fungot: what is love?
16:53:34 <fungot> ybden: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions all versions all versions no all versions all versions all versions
16:53:44 <ybden> fungot: I'm scared
16:53:45 <fungot> ybden: after that statement finishes executing. ( if the stack while skipping some of its first statement; generally speaking, a clc-intercal program that weren't part of _this_ manual), making the rest of the stack, or may not be stored there. ( a onespot variable is overloaded to an expression in place of the characters `.:_', which is also computed `create' statement supercedes an older `create' statement references another
16:53:51 <boily> ybden: careful with fungot. he's sentient.
16:53:51 <fungot> boily: this manual is for the full details of how to use the `-t' option is used); for more details). `again' ( *note backtracking::) to create a directory created called `ick-0.29'; this is a separate next stack entry that isn't a particularly useful) intercal program, or decide that it is also possible ( from c-intercal version 0.29).
16:53:56 <ybden> boily: I noticed
16:54:01 <ybden> Or, semi-sentient
16:54:07 <ybden> According to the quotes
16:54:17 <ybden> or something
16:54:23 <ybden> fungot
16:54:23 <fungot> ybden: one of the difference between the `next' than `compunex' is likely to be run from within the program ends; however, the only flow-control commands in the same way to cause the program measures how many spaces it needs: the expression for the same line only makes sense to a mingle.)
16:54:32 <ybden> fungot: fnord
16:54:32 <fungot> ybden: to a onespot variable is used to tell `ick' in `ick.h'; if you want to be input in any case.
16:55:43 <oerjan> `learn Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator.
16:55:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'jesu': Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator.
16:58:41 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/jesu{,s}
16:58:45 <HackEgo> No output.
16:59:09 <ybden> \oren\: I rather like your font, especially since I can now properly fully justify my text without it looking terrible
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17:13:32 <durakni> cultivating cargo?..
17:14:52 <oerjan> durakni: i think it started with me saying something about Einstein hth
17:15:53 <durakni> relative in its relateable theory? :)
17:16:15 <oerjan> it didn't even mention relativity, actually
17:16:26 <oerjan> only his tensor notation.
17:16:36 <oerjan> which he _used_ for relativity, mind.
17:17:10 <durakni> well glad we got that out of the way
17:19:16 <boily> `? durakni
17:19:17 <HackEgo> durakni? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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17:21:23 <durakni> so what is cargo cultivating
17:21:32 <oerjan> boily: as the resident expert, please guess the language of Reece`'s quit message twh
17:22:04 <oerjan> cargo cultivates all sorts of things
17:23:07 <durakni> in what context?
17:23:18 <oerjan> i dunno, i didn't add it to the topic
17:23:52 <durakni> makes me think of spacex cargo shuttles
17:24:34 <boily> oerjan: something Norse?
17:26:38 <oerjan> boily: that is a reasonable first impression, but not really. (also, i don't know the answer.)
17:27:15 <boily> it's something? http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/dialect2.php?opt=dialect2
17:28:19 <oerjan> boily: ooh
17:30:06 <boily> I think I like it. it's very Québécois in its word manglement approach :D
17:31:33 <Taneb> "I'll see thou after, ta-ra for now"?
17:34:01 <oerjan> *thee
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17:45:48 <ybden> alsithy after the tararfunar
17:45:59 <ybden> not sure what the first and last parts are
17:47:01 <ybden> oh
17:47:02 <boily> `le/rn tarafurnar/The event after which you'll be seen.
17:47:04 <HackEgo> Learned «tarafurnar»
17:47:07 <ybden> arfunar is half an hour
17:48:23 <ybden> I'l see you after the (tar?) half an hour
17:49:15 <ybden> Taneb's seems more likely
17:49:22 <ybden> Didn't see that at first
17:50:27 * oerjan swats boily for not including the key -----###
17:50:46 * boily dodges
17:50:50 <oerjan> `slwd tarafurnar//s/./Tarafurnar is t/
17:50:52 <boily> there's a key?
17:50:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/tarafurnar//Tarafurnar is the event after which you'll be seen.
17:51:37 <ybden> `? swat
17:51:40 <HackEgo> swat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:51:45 <int-e> hmm, -----### could be a poison dart, though perhaps the needle is a bit long
17:52:08 <ybden> It could be a feather duster
17:52:30 <FireFly> `quote -----###
17:52:32 <oerjan> my swatter is guaranteed free of poison hth
17:52:32 <HackEgo> 54) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
17:52:38 <FireFly> Hm
17:52:43 <FireFly> no other swatter quotes?
17:53:03 <oerjan> well there is no one else quite as swattable
17:53:14 <FireFly> I suppose so
17:53:59 <int-e> Fly, swatter, fly!
17:54:04 <int-e> `? drone
17:54:07 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
17:54:22 <ybden> `? firefly
17:54:23 <oerjan> `slwd drone//s/./D/
17:54:25 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
17:54:30 <HackEgo> wisdom/drone//Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
17:55:03 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -ri swat .
17:55:16 <HackEgo> ​./userweps:boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppavilion[1] is a motherfucking walrus \ ./swatter:The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles. \ ./bdsmreclist:* oerjan swats quintopia -----###
17:55:43 <FireFly> `? bdsmreclist
17:55:45 <HackEgo> ​* oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
17:56:12 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -ri dart .
17:56:14 <HackEgo> No output.
18:04:25 <zzo38> I dreamt about some strange poker variant with many extra cards and extra hands, as well as ways for some players to determine where some of the cards are in the remaining deck; some extra patterns included "Common Tile" (all cards in the grid (except the message area) must be tiles, and all must be the same tile), "Leech Three" (in video poker it even depended on the cursor position), "Leech Q" (a pattern I could not understand), and others.
18:05:14 <ybden> `bdsmreclist
18:05:21 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bdsmreclist: not found
18:05:38 <ybden> `find -name bdsmreclist
18:05:39 <HackEgo> find: unknown predicate `-name bdsmreclist'
18:05:43 <ybden> `find . -name bdsmreclist
18:05:44 <HackEgo> find: `. -name bdsmreclist': No such file or directory
18:05:46 <durakni> is this is actual dream?
18:05:50 <ybden> ``find . -name bdsmreclist
18:05:52 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `find: not found
18:06:15 <ybden> Does the bdsmreclist actually exist?
18:06:31 <zzo38> durakni: It is what I remember.
18:08:23 <oerjan> ybden: probably not.
18:08:50 <oerjan> `hoag bdsmreclist
18:08:56 <HackEgo> ​<shachaf> ` mv bdsmreclist junk/ \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <Phantom_Hoover> echo "<oerjan> YOU are out of order." >> bdsmreclist \ <oerjan> mv bdsmreclist wisdom \ <Phantom_Hoover> mv bdsmreclist. bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> rm bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> echo "* oerjan swats quintopia -----###" >> bdsmreclist
18:09:19 <oerjan> it was removed.
18:09:53 <oerjan> `howg bdsmreclist
18:09:59 <HackEgo> ​<fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ <ais523> ls wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <oerjan> mv bdsmreclist wisdom
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18:10:24 <oerjan> `hoag bdsmreclist.
18:10:34 <HackEgo> ​<Phantom_Hoover> mv bdsmreclist. bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> cat bdsmreclist bsdmreclist > bdsmreclist.
18:12:35 <oerjan> ok, i have no idea why it has that second line.
18:13:16 <oerjan> unless...
18:13:36 <oerjan> `unidecode bdsmreclist
18:13:37 <HackEgo> ​[U+0020 SPACE] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U
18:13:57 <oerjan> `unidecode st
18:13:58 <HackEgo> ​[U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE]
18:14:09 <oerjan> oh wait
18:14:13 <ais523> `` echo ' bdsmreclist ' | cat -v
18:14:15 <HackEgo> ​ bdsmreclist
18:14:39 <oerjan> `` hoag bdsmreclist . | cat -v
18:14:49 <oerjan> er wrong one
18:14:51 <HackEgo> ​<oerjan> slwd drone//s/./D/ \ <oerjan> slwd tarafurnar//s/./Tarafurnar is t/ \ <boily> le/rn tarafurnar/The event after which you\'ll be seen. \ <oerjan> ` mv wisdom/jesu{,s} \ <oerjan> learn Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator. \ <oerjan> learn Xor is just addition of nimbers. \ <oerjan> slwd or//s/op/unary op/ \ <oerjan> slwd and//s/
18:15:07 <oerjan> `` hoag bdsmreclist. | cat -v
18:15:13 <HackEgo> ​<Phantom_Hoover> mv bdsmreclist. bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> cat bdsmreclist bsdmreclist > bdsmreclist.
18:15:27 <oerjan> it's not that one
18:15:56 <oerjan> `url wisdom/bdsmreclist
18:15:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/bdsmreclist
18:20:41 <oerjan> oh
18:20:48 <oerjan> `hoag bsdmreclist
18:20:52 <HackEgo> ​<Phantom_Hoover> rm bsdmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> echo "<oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits" > bsdmreclist
18:21:07 <oerjan> that's how.
18:21:12 <oerjan> `cat bin/url
18:21:14 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
18:22:32 <oerjan> `` tail bin/url
18:22:34 <HackEgo> if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ else: \ print ("http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fsh
18:22:51 <oerjan> `` url bin/url
18:22:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/url
18:24:05 <oerjan> `cat bin/hurl
18:24:07 <HackEgo> cat: bin/hurl: No such file or directory
18:25:01 <oerjan> `` cp bin/{,h}url; sed -i '11s/file/log/' bin/hurl
18:25:06 <HackEgo> No output.
18:25:23 <oerjan> `hurl bin/url
18:25:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin/url
18:27:02 <oerjan> `hurl bin
18:27:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin
18:28:05 <oerjan> those file logs are really not good at noting reversals
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19:58:43 <zzo38> Now you can see my JavaScript object serialization program https://www.npmjs.com/package/object-serializer http://sprunge.us/AIYK
19:59:53 <zzo38> Please tell me if there is any one unclear or incorrect or suggestion changed or whatever else.
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21:14:52 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: so why not CBOR?
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21:15:35 <lifthrasiir> seems that your design is very comparable to CBOR with no seemingly visible benefits
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21:17:55 <zzo38> What is CBOR?
21:18:15 <lifthrasiir> hmm at the second reading I can see some differences around, string back references (which might or might not be a benefit) and an ability to serialize arbitrary prototypes (an advantage, but not as a general serialization format)
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21:18:21 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: http://cbor.io/
21:18:54 <lifthrasiir> and also an ability to serialize recursive objects (this one can be huge)
21:19:36 <lifthrasiir> I prefer the serialization to be fully non-recursive, but someone may actually want recursion
21:20:38 <zzo38> Note that string backreferences are only for keys in my system, although that is where I expect them to be most useful (since many objects may have properties with the same name).
21:24:41 <zzo38> Anyways, my design is specifically for JavaScript.
21:27:12 <zzo38> CBOR is good, but it has a different use than mine; these two programs are to be used for different kind of purposes.
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21:30:03 <wob_jonas> good evening, fungot
21:30:03 <fungot> wob_jonas: e888 i have no file and i must scream compilers too, and therefore broken the limit but wasn't designed to work with this character set, all of which are treated equivalently: lowercase letters, punctuation marks otherwise unused in intercal terms, imagine what would happen if the `-a' option ( *note -t::) to ( or `command' if that command and a 0, and can be used.
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21:36:51 <moonythedwarf_> <otherbot> Witchcraft means "hairy cat" in New York on ice cream in a vacuum cleaner that mass produced by the world
21:37:47 <Taneb> That sounds worryingly Markovian
21:37:54 <moonythedwarf_> it is :P
21:38:03 <moonythedwarf_> im trying to come up with a better scheme
21:38:08 <moonythedwarf_> any good ideas?
21:39:08 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf: be careful with arithmetic
21:39:18 <moonythedwarf_> ?
21:39:56 <moonythedwarf_> wob_jonas: ?
21:42:00 <moonythedwarf_> is there anything better than a markov chain Taneb?
21:42:24 <Taneb> Define "better2
21:42:25 <Taneb> "
21:42:34 <Taneb> Markov chains are pretty much the simplest thing that does this
21:42:52 <moonythedwarf_> doesnt fungot use something similar to a markov chain?
21:42:52 <fungot> moonythedwarf_: e533 you want the files `ick'. it can run the befunge program to `come from':
21:44:19 <moonythedwarf_> what does Fungot use to make its sentences?
21:44:58 <Taneb> moonythedwarf_, fungot uses a markov chain, yes
21:44:58 <fungot> Taneb: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions all versions all versions
21:45:19 <Taneb> `quote anmaster no
21:45:26 <moonythedwarf_> is there anything that could make a more readable sentence?
21:45:30 <HackEgo> 559) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
21:55:03 <Taneb> moonythedwarf_, a larger window, but that needs a larger corpus
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21:59:24 <moonythedwarf_> Taneb: is 210KB of data enough for that?
22:02:58 <Taneb> I really couldn't tell you
22:03:01 <Taneb> Depends on the data
22:03:27 <moonythedwarf_> its a large list of facts
22:03:47 <Taneb> You could try it and see how it goes
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22:18:23 <ybden> fungot: markov
22:18:23 <fungot> ybden: e778 unexplaned compiler bug, or at run time. only `abstain' and `.2/.1' together cause `.1' to specify other information to the error that looks like a line label, any `come from's need not count towards the total command count.)
22:19:10 <ybden> Does saying something to fungot change its seed, or is it just random?
22:19:10 <fungot> ybden: do create .5 switch .1 with .2
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22:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> What's the standard name in fairy chess for the piece that has the orthagonal movement of a rook, but none of the special rules (namely, castling)
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22:43:53 <zzo38> I don't know.
22:44:18 <zzo38> I think they usually just mention castling or not separately.
22:44:20 <izalove> how is fairy chess different from chess?
22:45:34 <ybden> It involves fairies
22:46:47 <izalove> well that explains it
22:47:03 <ybden> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_chess
22:47:22 <ybden> I didn't know of this term before
22:47:29 <ybden> I'm assuming that suicide chess is a form of fairy chess
22:48:30 <ybden> ah, no
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22:48:49 <zzo38_> It is like how fairy card is different from card. (I suppose this answer does not help much)
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22:48:53 <ybden> suicide chess is for traditional pieces + board with nontraditional rules
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22:49:12 <ybden> fairy chess involves nontraditional pieces
22:49:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct
22:49:23 <ybden> and nontraditional rules
22:49:31 <hppavilion[1]> In Avengers, Nick Fury bets Captain America $10 some parts of the modern world will surprise him
22:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> Something just occurred to me
22:50:11 <izalove> that $10 was a much larger amount of money in captain america's time?
22:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> I checked, and $10 adjusted for inflation from 1945 to 2012 is $126.78
22:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes.
22:51:08 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming Steve isn't up to speed on inflation
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23:02:10 <zzo38> Example of some macro in my proposed kind of JavaScripts macro system: \{ define("_ord %L",x=>AST.value(x.charCodeAt())); } another macro like "#define ABC(x) ((x)+(x))" in C can be defined either as \{ define("ABC(%E)",x=>(|\(x)+\(x)|)); \} or as \{ define("ABC(%E)",x=>AST.plus(x,x)); } with the same meaning in each case. Do you like this? What other comment/question/complaints you might have?
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23:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> How did it JUST hit me that the old German guy in Avengers who stands up to Loki
23:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> Was an old German guy who probably REMEMBERS the last time this happened
23:06:27 <izalove> that was exactly the point
23:07:04 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, Cap outright references Hitler ("Last time I was in Germany, and I saw a man standing above everybody else, we wound up disagreeing"
23:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yeah, which is why it's weird that I just noticed it
23:07:38 <hppavilion[1]> I guess I just didn't connect that the German guy was old and might've been around in the 40s
23:16:44 <zzo38> How do I tell Firefox to finish loading the text before it loads any pictures?
23:18:11 <ais523> ybden: technically speaking, suicide chess doesn't have a king, but rather a Mann
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23:18:38 <ais523> so it's fairy chess in that sense
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23:19:04 <ais523> I wonder what suicide chess would be like if it had regular check and checkmate rules
23:19:06 <ybden> ais523: Where's that documented?
23:19:17 <ais523> ybden: I learned the rules from someone in person
23:19:22 <ais523> but I think they're pretty universal
23:19:29 <ais523> the point is that the king in suicide chess doesn't have any royal powers
23:19:33 <ybden> the only mentions of mann I can see relating to suicide chess is the author of a unix program
23:19:34 <zzo38> I think I have seen once somewhere that it is a variant that you can also lose by checkmate
23:19:38 <ais523> and thus is actually a different piece
23:19:52 <ais523> ybden: IIRC mann is the name for a king without royal powers
23:20:08 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it is.
23:20:41 <ais523> I wonder what ches would be like if you replaced all the pawns with manns
23:20:43 <ais523> *chess
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23:22:32 <moonythedwarf> helloily
23:22:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you could hide all the pictures with css rules, then load another css rule later that overrides it and reveals the pictures
23:23:31 <zzo38> Will hiding them prevent them from loading? I still want the placeholders to load if the width/height are specified, though.
23:23:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think zzo38 cares about load order not render order
23:23:44 <ais523> my guess is that you have to turn off http pipelining or the like
23:23:53 <ais523> in order to force the original page to load before any of its dependencies
23:23:55 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is correct. I want to affect the load order not rendering.
23:23:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think you can hide images with css in such a way that the browser doesn't even load them usually
23:24:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe you could make the server not serve the images until the text is loaded?
23:25:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you could even make the css rules replace elements with images, so the image urls aren't known before
23:25:07 <zzo38> That won't help; for one thing it is not my server
23:25:09 <wob_jonas> then surely the browser can't load that
23:25:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: I also think zzo38 is the client here, not the server
23:25:14 <wob_jonas> wait
23:25:18 <ais523> and really, this should be a client setting
23:25:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you're the client?
23:25:23 <zzo38> Yes
23:25:24 <wob_jonas> not the server?
23:25:25 <wob_jonas> ouch
23:25:27 <wob_jonas> um...
23:25:33 <boily> mhelloony!
23:25:42 * ais523 notes that the names "client" and "server" also work for restaurants
23:25:43 <wob_jonas> maybe try to use a proxy or something?
23:26:12 <wob_jonas> oh, or
23:26:19 <izalove> use lynx or w3m
23:26:21 <ais523> well http is a pull protocol
23:26:33 <ais523> a page loads because the client requests it, not because the server suggests it
23:26:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think you can make the browser not load images at all, possibly with a browser extension, then change the setting to load images later manually
23:29:30 <zzo38> I thought Netscape used to load picture late?
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23:31:29 <ais523> zzo38: it may be a case of the web pages being designed differently
23:31:39 <ais523> many pages nowadays load everything using JavaScript, including the text
23:31:45 <ais523> IMO they shouldn't
23:31:54 <ais523> (rather there should be some sort of server-side DOM diffing)
23:33:13 <izalove> i have a set of key-value pairs and i want to store at most K of them. when i store the (k+1)th element i want to remove the oldest i inserted. when i get a value in this structure, i want that element to become the newest inserted
23:33:16 <izalove> what data structure does this?
23:34:53 <izalove> a hash table + a tree for the order?
23:35:06 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:36:57 <ais523> izalove: can you overwrite a value while keeping the key the same? and if you do, does it go to the "back of the queue" or does it stay in its current position?
23:37:51 <izalove> can overwrite, and overwriting makes that element the most recent one
23:38:08 <izalove> which basically is equivalent to removing and reinserting
23:39:18 <ais523> right
23:40:11 <izalove> hash table + priority queue?
23:40:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Paulmooreparks * New user account
23:40:19 <ais523> something that would work would be a linked queue (plus an integer holding the length) for identifying old keys to remove, plus a hash table that uses keys as keys, and pointers to the queue elements (so that you can remove them from the middle of the queue) as values
23:40:47 <izalove> ok
23:40:47 <ais523> I don't think you need a priority queue here, a regular queue would work? admittedly priority queues were my first idea but I can't see any interesting way to set the priority
23:41:29 <izalove> thanks for your help
23:42:49 <ais523> I think there's probably an easier solution but I can't think of one
23:43:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49847&oldid=49833 * Paulmooreparks * (+282)
23:43:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49848&oldid=43719 * Paulmooreparks * (+8) Updated the link to the official pbrain site.
23:44:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49849&oldid=49848 * Paulmooreparks * (+16) Updated parkscomputing.com link in Implementations section.
23:47:52 <boily> `wisdom
23:48:03 <HackEgo> functor//Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories.
23:52:40 <shachaf> not true
23:52:55 <shachaf> @messageese-loud
23:52:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 45m 38s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_index_notation
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23:57:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: agreed, some pages have tricks, whether on server side or in client javascript, to make sure the ads load before the page content.
23:59:32 <wob_jonas> izalove: use a priority queue heap rigged so that you keep track of the position of elements in it in a separate circular array that associates the insertion time with the position of the element the heap
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23:59:51 <wob_jonas> izalove: no wait, a circular array won't work
2016-10-03
00:00:05 <wob_jonas> instead, probably you need a full separate ordered associative array
00:00:10 <wob_jonas> sorted by insertion time
00:01:12 <wob_jonas> so a binary (or quaternary) heap sorted by the keys and an ordered tree sorted by the insertion dates, and when you move an element in the heap, track its position in the ordered tree
00:01:42 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:02:02 <wob_jonas> hmm wait
00:02:08 <wob_jonas> actually you don't need a search tree
00:02:11 <wob_jonas> ais523 is right
00:03:08 <wob_jonas> you only need a heap sorted by the keys and a queue (possible implemented as circular array or just as an array with free space on both sides that is sometimes moved) and link the position of elements both ways
00:03:44 <wob_jonas> no wait
00:03:50 <wob_jonas> that won't work
00:03:56 <wob_jonas> I'm saying all stupid things
00:04:03 <wob_jonas> what was the task again?
00:04:29 <wob_jonas> "i have a set of key-value pairs and i want to store at most K of them. when i store the (k+1)th element i want to remove the oldest i inserted. when i get a value in this structure, i want that element to become the newest inserted "
00:04:52 <wob_jonas> what does the key even do? what is it a key of?
00:05:00 <wob_jonas> don't you just have ordinary pairs?
00:05:20 -!- moonythedwarf has joined.
00:05:22 <wob_jonas> you just need a plain queue
00:05:41 <izalove> but i want to find an element by its key
00:05:54 <wob_jonas> oh, you didn't say that
00:06:07 <izalove> sorry
00:06:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: needs to be a linked queue so that you can delete from the middle, while preserving the order of other elements, in less than O(n)
00:06:47 <ais523> assuming we're going for asymptotic performance here
00:07:08 <MDude> http://www.bitsofpancake.com/programming/markov-chain-text-generator/
00:07:42 <wob_jonas> in that case, have a separate associative array that is keyed by the keys and stores the position of that element in the queue. if the queue is array-based, then store a biased index that never changes, and store the bias separately; if you use a linked list based queue (less practical), then make the position (stored in the associative array) a po
00:07:43 <wob_jonas> inter to the element in the queue.
00:07:43 <MDude> Time to shove a bunch of logs into a javascript maarkup chain someone else wrote.
00:07:53 <wob_jonas> wait
00:07:55 <MDude> Even though we fungot is already here for that.
00:07:55 <fungot> MDude: all operations on intercal source code), prepending a byte with 172 to the one implemented in c-intercal, and so on) with the best results. ( the previous character minus the previous sentence also explained what operands these operators have to rename the installation directory: mkdir build cd build ../configure to build in a linked c program ( for instance
00:08:04 <wob_jonas> you want to be able to delete an element from the middle?
00:08:08 <wob_jonas> using the key?
00:08:29 <wob_jonas> yes, then you need at least a linked list queue
00:08:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: to replace the element back at the end of the list
00:08:42 <wob_jonas> in fact
00:08:52 <wob_jonas> you could make the links internal to the tree
00:08:56 <wob_jonas> that is, no separate linked list,
00:09:11 <izalove> that's interesting
00:09:25 <wob_jonas> just have an associative array keyed on the keys, and as the value, you store the values and the key of the next newest element
00:09:32 <wob_jonas> and store the key of the oldest element somewhere
00:10:00 <izalove> thanks for this
00:10:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, that's clever, but I think you need to doubly link
00:10:45 <ais523> otherwise you can't update the link from the element immediately older than the one you delete
00:10:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: true, doubly link
00:11:14 <ais523> also you need to store the total number of elements so that you know whether you need to delete the oldest at all
00:11:18 <ais523> but that's easy enough
00:12:05 <wob_jonas> there's also an alternate solution too (the one you get if SQL databases are your only hammer): use two associative arrays, the first one is an ordered one keyed by insertion times, the second one is an unordered one keyed by the keys but also stores the insertion time as extra value
00:12:43 <wob_jonas> that's assimptotically slower, but much easier to implement, because you never have to modify elements
00:13:10 <wob_jonas> and yes, then too you need to track the number of elements
00:13:20 <ais523> right, I was actually thinking "a relational database could solve this problem, I wonder what algorithm it'd use"
00:14:51 <wob_jonas> if you modify that a bit by using a heap (instead of an ordered assoc array on the insertion times) then you'll have to store the positions in the unordered assoc array and update those positions all the time
00:15:22 <wob_jonas> unless perhaps you use a linked heap, which is a bit ugly
00:16:11 <wob_jonas> the SQL-like solution with just two assoc arrays is the easiest to implement because you don't need custom data structures
00:18:16 <wob_jonas> using SQL as your only hammer is actually quite a useful crutch, even if it's not one I really like
00:18:24 <wob_jonas> I prefer other hammers
00:19:39 <ais523> what's your favourite general-purpose hammer?
00:21:11 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure.
00:22:15 <wob_jonas> I think when making data structures, I try to use arrays and array indexes and similar over anything associative whenever I can get away with it (without too much trouble), at least if I'm programming in C++. I use associative arrays in perl, unless I need to optimize.
00:22:42 <wob_jonas> I do sort of like the SQL clutch in a way, but don't stick to it all the time.
00:23:31 <wob_jonas> I do like the part of the SQL clutch where I try to avoid deeply nested data structures, instead using shallow structures (whether array-like or associative) and pointing into them with indexes or keys
00:23:57 <wob_jonas> But I don't like the part of the SQL clutch where everything has to be associative so you can insert or delete arbitrarily.
00:24:03 <wob_jonas> Does that make sense?
00:24:39 <wob_jonas> The former part, avoiding deeply nested structures, applies even when I'm programming in perl.
00:25:32 <ais523> well, on the occasions I've used deeply nested structures
00:25:41 <ais523> it normally turned out in retrospect to be a mistake
00:25:51 <ais523> also, if I find myself maintaining too many indexes (indices?) manually
00:25:59 <ais523> I should probably be using a database instead
00:26:08 <ais523> (see: aimake)
00:26:11 <wob_jonas> I don't usually have to maintain them. Just set them once.
00:28:45 <wob_jonas> Also, I don't like hash tables. If I do need an associative array (rather than get away with an array), and I'm not writing perl, I prefer to use a search tree. I do acknowledge that sometimes hash tables are faster, but that optimization is rarely relevant for whatever I'm writing,
00:28:49 <wob_jonas> because the associative array isn't usually in the fast path. The fast inner loops can generally be written so they use only arrays.
00:29:18 <wob_jonas> In perl, I do use the builtin hash tables though.
00:30:48 <ais523> I used a trie when I needed to optimize an associative lookup in NH4
00:30:56 <ais523> but that was just because they're easier to write than hash tables are
00:31:05 <wob_jonas> The reason why you rarely need associative arrays is this: most of the time you actually just write everything in them first, then when they're finished, you look up stuff in them or iterate on them. If that's the case, then an array you sort once and then binary search in is better.
00:31:51 <wob_jonas> At least, this is the case in the programs I write. If you're like writing a kernel, then you will totally need lots of hash tables and search trees.
00:32:13 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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00:32:39 <wob_jonas> And sometimes you do need custom structures, you can't do everything the SQL way, but that's pretty rare.
00:33:21 <wob_jonas> (Well, it sort of depends on how many non-custom structures you know already.)
00:37:47 <wob_jonas> And obviously all this stuff depends a lot on your task and parameters, so use common sense and do whatever is best for the particular task rather than just one hammer.
00:38:33 <boily> bonsøirjan.
00:39:18 <oerjan> bod kveildy.
00:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> New operation (or, well, notation for an existing operation): reverse subtract
00:41:29 <oerjan> <ybden> Does saying something to fungot change its seed, or is it just random? <-- it's random. in particular fungot has no way to convert a word into the right index pointer, only the reverse.
00:41:29 <fungot> oerjan: 2. compile the externally-called files.) here's an idiom from the stack while skipping some of this is another compile-time error.
00:42:15 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, a rsub b is the same as b sub a. No new uses, but can make some stuff look better.
00:42:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure if the file format even allows it.
00:42:33 <hppavilion[1]> Notation is a backwards subtraction sign.
00:42:39 <ybden> oerjan: ah.
00:43:03 <oerjan> > 2 `subtract` 4 -- haskell is way ahead of you
00:43:05 <lambdabot> 2
00:43:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: since you mention aimake, have you worked on that (or ayacc) again?
00:43:50 <wob_jonas> on the aimake rewrite or something
00:43:50 <oerjan> ...
00:43:55 <wob_jonas> (or even on scapegoat.)
00:43:58 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:44:07 <ais523> I did a bit of work on ayacc I think, not sure though
00:44:07 <ais523> no work on aimake
00:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well yeah
00:44:13 <wob_jonas> great!
00:44:20 <ais523> there are some fonts in which - isn't left-to-right symmetrical
00:44:22 <wob_jonas> have you released ayacc under some free software license yet?
00:44:35 <wob_jonas> or had it escape under such a license at least
00:45:00 <ais523> huh, apparently not
00:45:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course Haskell is ahead of me
00:45:03 <ais523> I was planning to though
00:45:07 <ais523> let me stick a GPLv3 notice on there
00:45:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but that's usually because it has serifs (so it's a bit wavy) or is a double line above one another with the two slightly offset horizontally, and in either case it would look ugly if mirrored
00:46:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: I know you were planning, you just didn't do it because you weren't working on aimake at all
00:46:52 <ais523> ugh, what's the start of the copyright range on this thing?
00:47:09 <ais523> 2015
00:47:20 <wob_jonas> I think the #esoteric logs even has a statement somewhere that serves as releasing under a license.
00:47:26 <wob_jonas> 2015? no way
00:47:30 <wob_jonas> is it that new?
00:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> (a reverse minus sign is possible because a normal minus sign is changed- not just -, but more like a vertically-flipped ¬)
00:48:12 <ais523> also wow the repo was out of date
00:48:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: OK, updated, and properly licensed now
00:48:21 <wob_jonas> maybe it is
00:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> There's also an operation related to ± called "minus-or-reverse-minus", which is literally just a[morm]b = a-b|b-a
00:48:33 <hppavilion[1]> (also reverse-minus-or-minus)
00:48:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: what's the url?
00:48:59 <hppavilion[1]> (not sure how they look though; need to figure that out
00:49:01 <hppavilion[1]> )
00:49:47 <ais523> err, the URL is wrong
00:49:54 <ais523> let me go and find a better URL for it :-P
00:50:08 <wob_jonas> ok
00:50:13 <wob_jonas> it's not urgent or anything
00:50:32 <wob_jonas> I'm just curious
00:50:52 <wob_jonas> Are you planning to add a stackless C backend by the way?
00:51:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
00:51:32 <ais523> also the current C backend uses the call stack as the only stack
00:51:32 <wob_jonas> That is, a C backend that doesn't use recursion so it can return after each token read
00:51:41 <ais523> ah right, I see
00:51:45 <wob_jonas> error 403
00:51:51 <ais523> I don't currently have any plans to write a push parser
00:52:07 <wob_jonas> hmm wait
00:52:44 <ais523> shouldn't be, I have +rx perms on all the directories and +r on all the files
00:52:48 <ais523> did you try to access it in a web browser? :-P
00:53:10 <wob_jonas> actually what I'd like isn't really a push parser, but rather a way to reset the parser to older savestates (unpushing tokens). one way to do that would be to make it a push parser AND use immutable data structures only, but it could be done in other ways.
00:53:29 <wob_jonas> yes, in a web browser
00:54:06 <ais523> savestating the parser isn't something that's very compatible with aimake's architecture
00:54:11 <ais523> you'd probably be better off using bison for something like that
00:54:12 <wob_jonas> with direct file access the access control error would be error 13 rather than error 403
00:54:25 <ais523> well darcs still uses http
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00:54:33 <ais523> just it accesses different files than the browser does
00:54:49 <wob_jonas> I think it is compatible in the sense that I'd only need a new backend template for it, not change anything in the actual parser generator code.
00:55:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: the main thing that ayacc needs and doesn't have is type safety
00:55:23 <ais523> atm it just uses the union for everything, like bison does
00:55:23 <wob_jonas> Which is good, because I have more chance to be able to do it, I don't have to understand the theory of the generator, and get to reuse (most of) the optimizations you've implemented.
00:55:29 <ais523> but it has enough information to use exact types
00:55:48 <ais523> I think you could write a separate backend, yes
00:55:54 <wob_jonas> does it already have _some_ type safety, as in, it derives the types of some values, but not all?
00:55:58 <ais523> you'd have to implement the "function call" operations via maintaining a stack manually
00:56:04 <wob_jonas> yes.
00:56:12 <ais523> parts of the code know what the type of certain values are, but the type information isn't propagated
00:56:53 <wob_jonas> hmm
00:57:21 <wob_jonas> Can the compiler that compiles the emitted code do that if it analyzes all the functions together? Probably not reliably.
00:57:45 <wob_jonas> The switch statements on state variables would confuse the compiler too much to follow what really happens.
00:57:49 <ais523> sometimes the type of one return value of a function depends on the value of another
00:57:55 <ais523> you'd probably keep using the union in that ase
00:57:57 <ais523> *case
00:58:01 <wob_jonas> hmm
00:58:06 <ais523> rather than having multiple return values just so that they can have different types
00:58:21 <ais523> like, ayacc often creates a function that, say, can parse one of two things
00:58:24 <ais523> then it tells the caller which it parsed
00:58:36 <ais523> and there's no reason why the semantic values of those two things needs to have the same type
00:58:52 <ais523> (in C it uses return-by-reference if a function needs multiple return values)
00:59:16 <wob_jonas> so then you return a distinguished union?
00:59:39 <wob_jonas> I'm still getting error 403
01:00:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: are you running the literal command "darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc"?
01:00:09 <wob_jonas> oh! it's a darcs repo
01:00:11 <wob_jonas> you didn't say that
01:00:22 <wob_jonas> I thought it was a landing page with information
01:00:22 <ais523> yes I did
01:00:40 <ais523> and actually, that's a good point, it probably should be a landing page
01:00:43 <ais523> in which case that URL isn't final
01:00:59 <ais523> maybe I should move it to media/
01:01:02 <zzo38> Can you check for I/O and SDL events together with SDL 1.x?
01:01:23 <ais523> nethack4.org needs a more organized filesystem
01:01:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: and you should have a list of all projects at /projects or at /
01:01:27 <ais523> zzo38: I/O is converted into SDL events by SDL, so you just do a single check for SDL events
01:01:33 <ais523> that is, if you request the conversion
01:01:57 <wob_jonas> let me install darcs, I think I don't have it on this machine yet
01:02:08 <zzo38> How can you do that on an arbitrary file descriptor?
01:02:34 <ais523> zzo38: ugh, I ran into this problem with SDL 2 myself, and I think SDL 1 is the same
01:02:45 <ais523> the only method is to create a separate thread to monitor the file descriptor
01:02:56 <ais523> but then you can't communicate to the main thread
01:03:10 <zzo38> Can you add events to one thread from another thread or not?
01:03:11 <ais523> posting an SDL event doesn't work because it can lead to deadlocks, the SDL messaging functions aren't thread-safe
01:03:20 <ais523> so no, as far as I know
01:03:21 <zzo38> O it isn't thread-safe
01:03:28 <ais523> in NH4 I basically had to poll :-(
01:03:28 <wob_jonas> wait really?
01:03:34 <ais523> there's an SDL extension called something like SDL_net
01:03:36 <ais523> that might be able to do it
01:03:43 <wob_jonas> they repeated that mistake from wx?
01:03:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: and SFML makes exactly the same mistake!
01:03:58 <ais523> it's ridiculous
01:04:06 <wob_jonas> what's SFML?
01:04:32 <zzo38> I know that Xlib does not have this problem; you can check for events and other file descriptors together, since the X events are a file descriptor!
01:04:36 <boily> `? SFML
01:04:41 <HackEgo> SFML? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:04:49 <ais523> wob_jonas: main competitor to SDL
01:04:52 <ais523> I was looking at it for libuncursed
01:04:59 <ais523> but it seems to have the same set of deficiencies as SDL does
01:05:53 <ais523> oh wow, SDL_net doesn't have a way to select network packets against SDL events either
01:06:05 <ais523> why do so many people get this stuff wrong
01:06:24 <wob_jonas> Are you sure they don't just have a confusing documentation and some way to do this properly?
01:06:29 <ais523> also at least SFML doesn't have the primitives necessary to create your own thread-safe event injector either
01:06:35 <ais523> it'd need semaphores but it only has mutexes
01:07:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: nah, I think the sort of people who write this sort of library genuinely don't see polling as a problem
01:07:04 <ais523> it /can/ be done with polling, very easily
01:07:09 <ais523> it just eats up more CPU wakeups than it should
01:07:16 <wob_jonas> like, multiple apis, a simple main loop that doesn't let you listen to arbitrary file descriptors, but also a more complicated method that lets you embed it to any event loop
01:07:31 <wob_jonas> crazy
01:08:01 <ais523> OK, SDL does have semaphores
01:08:07 <ais523> so it is possible to make it work
01:08:27 <zzo38> How can you do that with the semaphores then?
01:08:40 <ais523> zzo38: what you have to do is have three threads: one handles SDL events and signals a semaphore when they arrive; one handles file descriptors events and signals the same semaphore when they arrive; and one processes events signalled by the other two threads
01:09:02 <ais523> basically, the two side threads need to "up" a semaphore that spends most of its time at 0 when they have something to report
01:09:13 <ais523> the merging thread "down"s the semaphore whenever it handles an event
01:09:34 <zzo38> Shouldn't the events needed in the main thread?
01:09:40 <ais523> it's probably a bit more complex because you need to wait for the event to be handled before you start working again, so you might need another semaphore to send in the other direction
01:09:58 <ais523> if there's data to communicate about the events, you'd do it using shared memory
01:10:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: IIRC QT and glib both require you to use its own main loop, but has events you can use it to wake it up from another thread properly
01:10:25 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
01:10:30 <ais523> libuncursed also uses that model
01:10:43 <ais523> actually implementing the remote wakeup in SDL was ridiculous, though; I used polling to do so in the end
01:10:54 <ais523> in libuncursed 2 I want to do it without polling
01:10:55 <wob_jonas> wait... what?
01:11:00 <wob_jonas> why would libuncursed do that?
01:11:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: say you're watching a game
01:11:16 <wob_jonas> no, I mean
01:11:28 <ais523> you have to wait on both a keypress by the user (SDL event), and network activity (move made by the user you're watching)
01:11:44 <ais523> and libuncursed uses polling because SDL uses polling internally anyway
01:11:45 <wob_jonas> why doesn't libuncursed just use the model where you provide the main loop and it tells you when it wants to listen to input and to output
01:11:48 <ais523> and I felt that a bit more wouldn't hurt much
01:12:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: libuncursed 1 uses the event loop model
01:12:23 <ais523> libuncursed 2 uses a variant of the model in which you have a command that does all output /and/ all input
01:12:36 <ais523> which makes it a lot harder to make mistakes
01:12:58 <ais523> (obviously, you set up the output you want in-memory in advance, and the output+input is basically similar to a buffer-swap command that waits for input once it's done so)
01:13:33 <wob_jonas> (or just make it use libev only, but give the option to compile to a custom libev)
01:14:42 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm not even sure what you mean by "it tells you when it wants to listen to input and to output"
01:15:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, you might not even need that, because it always wants to listen to input, and probably wants to block on output rather than poll for it
01:15:51 <wob_jonas> dunno
01:15:53 <zzo38> I know that I designed Xwicketset it does have a function called XwicAddFileEvent for purpose explicitly to watch on multi file descriptors as well as X events.
01:16:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, I see, you were trying to support background /output/
01:16:46 <ais523> right, libuncursed assumes that it can safely output synchronously, and even if it needed to output asynchronously I think it'd want to hide the details of that from the program using libuncursed
01:17:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, since this goes over network which could have a high latency, and the user could press lots of keystrokes each of which change the screen content a lot, in which case you might even be able to drop some of the output
01:17:53 <wob_jonas> although that might not come up much in practice because of the large buffers involved
01:18:14 <ais523> you don't want to drop output because of ttyrecing and (for bots/interhack) pipelined farlook
01:18:43 <ais523> although uncursed should be handling ttyrecing itself really
01:18:46 <wob_jonas> it would be enough to make the calling program (eg. nethack) sometimes not try to flush the screen if more keystrokes have already arrived
01:18:53 <wob_jonas> and block on output always
01:19:12 <wob_jonas> oh, you don't want to drop anything because of ttyrec
01:19:14 <wob_jonas> right
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01:19:32 <ais523> I think async output would be doable without changing the API, though
01:19:38 <ais523> maybe libuncursed 2 should support it as an option
01:19:51 <ais523> the likely implementation would be to use a second thread to do the rendering
01:20:39 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh my god, FiveThirtyEight is named because the US electoral college has 538 electors
01:21:13 <quintopia> *facepalm*
01:21:15 <wob_jonas> maybe you could have a ttyrec game option, so that when the user promises he's not ttyrec-ing (or teeing to multiple terminals) then the game can drop output if it's already read keystrokes (ans possibly uncurses can optimize the output a bit more dangerously so it only works on the exact terminal size)
01:22:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: text wrapping probably isn't consistent betwen terminals anyway
01:22:18 <ais523> you'd probably just want an option for async output behaviour
01:22:27 <ais523> and an option in libuncursed itself to produce ttyrecs
01:22:47 <ais523> (there's stub code for this in libuncursed 1; the ttyrec code itself hasn't been written but the place where it connects to the main code has been)
01:22:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: isn't it at least consistent in typical cases, which uncurses can detect?
01:23:20 <ais523> not sure
01:23:25 <wob_jonas> oh well, it probably doesn't matter much practically
01:23:41 <wob_jonas> such an optimization wouldn't really help much of anything
01:24:09 <wob_jonas> it's just be premature optimization]
01:25:29 <ais523> I don't know, maybe it'll help when using one of the slower forms of output
01:25:31 <wob_jonas> looking at ayacc now (checked it out with darcs)
01:25:32 <ais523> like wincon or SDL
01:26:05 <wob_jonas> maybe
01:26:52 <wob_jonas> ok, so now ayacc is distributed under GPL3
01:26:53 <wob_jonas> thanks
01:28:04 <wob_jonas> (and the output it generates still doesn't get restricted copyright-wise)
01:28:08 <ais523> right
01:28:11 <wob_jonas> great
01:28:20 <wob_jonas> and now it has tests
01:28:33 <ais523> I might move the GPLv3 text to be literally inside the source code rather than a separate file
01:28:54 <ais523> not many tests yet
01:29:43 <wob_jonas> ok
01:41:43 <wob_jonas> good night
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02:58:37 <zzo38> I don't understand the V8 embedding guide so well. How do you do reference counting with it?
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04:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, apparently style guides (e.g. Strunk & White, Chicago) are sometimes called "style sheets"
04:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> I am not OK with this unless they're written in CSS (or SASS or SCSS or LESS)
04:13:08 <hppavilion[1]> (or etc.)
04:25:58 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG660Jijr1A
04:27:08 <\oren\> great choon right there
04:36:26 <hppavilion[1]> If I make a language, should it be horribly inflective or not?
04:49:29 <jeffl35> lol
04:49:35 * jeffl35 converts MLA to CSS
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04:54:19 <Jafet> I wonder if the MLA has anything to say about animations
04:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Does MLA say how you cite an expansive scrawling on the walls of a cell written by a madman in his own blood over 15 years?
04:58:21 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: inflection would be cool
04:58:35 <\oren\> depending on what you inflect over
04:58:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Polysynthetically?
04:59:03 <hppavilion[1]> Evidentiality, definitely
04:59:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe definitivity/certitute/whatever?)
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05:11:18 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That sound good?
05:15:46 <\oren\> Yeh.
05:16:18 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I might also inflect over whether hitler did it too...
05:16:41 <\oren\> I had a great idea. I'm playing as hungary. Let's see if I can conquer austria before hitler can enact anschluss!
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05:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> ...dammit
05:29:57 <hppavilion[1]> I messed with the colors for HexChat and now everything is weird
05:30:06 <hppavilion[1]> And I can't find the reset button
05:30:14 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm pretty sure there used to be one)
05:36:38 <\oren\> Austro-hungarian Empire, Reunited!
05:36:59 <\oren\> hah, austria was soooo weak
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05:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> There are prepositions and postpositions, but what about inpositions? circumpositions?
05:52:59 <shachaf> There are suppositions
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06:07:10 <hppavilion[1]> PIE did use inflect! It does not have a great effect!
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06:23:16 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: you could probably cite the madman scrawling the same way as letters/correspondence
06:23:39 <quintopia> http://guides.lib.monash.edu/c.php?g=219786&p=1454260
06:23:55 <quintopia> "print diary" seems the closest
06:26:04 <hppavilion[1]> HE IS COMING[1]
06:27:52 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Manuscript (print) would actually be correct, as you're citing the original, not an edited & published version
06:28:14 <\oren\> And now I've taken the sudetenland too
06:28:54 <\oren\> hah! my hungarians are just cockblocking germany
06:30:27 <hppavilion[1]> [1] Hermit. (Untitled). Scrawled onto the walls of a cave in own blood. Found in cave outside of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Stand-alone.
06:31:51 <shachaf> oerjan: Remind me why Belkar can float?
06:40:21 <Cale> appositions
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06:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> Philosophy is much better with formal logical notation...
06:47:00 <zzo38> Yes it does help. But, a few things are difficult to put into formal logical notation (such as things that are difficult in general).
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06:54:28 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yeah, but things that aren't difficult in general become perfectly unambiguous
06:56:18 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa
06:56:37 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html has a prediction for 1187-03-26
06:56:49 <shachaf> which what's-his-name is aware of
06:56:55 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, that I agree, that is why it helps.
06:57:03 <shachaf> what's the in-comic time, anyway?
07:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I should read OotS...
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07:17:44 <shachaf> `? oots
07:17:58 <shachaf> HackEgo is slow again?
07:18:00 <HackEgo> oots? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What do you get with Euclidean geometry if you assume everything is polar coordinates (that is, you still draw a circle, but the points on the circle aren't thought of as cartesian)
07:26:25 <shachaf> Why are you asking me?
07:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure...
07:29:44 <shachaf> Euclidean geometry was coördinate-free last I checked.
07:30:35 <shachaf> coordinates are scow
07:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well, yeah
07:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> But...
07:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> What I'm ACTUALLY saying is 'what happens if you take the thing that happens when you use a ruler and compass, but treat it as polar and take whatever it is in cartesian and use that as primitives"
07:35:03 <shachaf> oerjan: hm, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html
07:39:32 <shachaf> Euclidean geometry is neither cartesian nor polar
07:39:33 <izalove> evil is measured in kilonazis?
07:40:41 <Hoolootwo> I'm pretty sure more conventional units would be milinazis
07:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, circle looks exactly the same
07:42:06 <Hoolootwo> it's like the Lenat; one nazi, like a Lenat, is a big value that (hopefully) is never reached in practice
07:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Hoolootwo: You're both wrong; Nazis would be the base unit, but SI actually uses Mengeles
07:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> Hoolootwo: Or pouters
07:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> (I had a feeling circles would be the same)
07:48:51 <hppavilion[1]> Jesus is currently clocking in at 70.8 megawarhols, though that's not adjusting for population...
07:52:02 <izalove> warhol as in andy warhol?
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07:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Warhol as in the unit
08:11:16 <hppavilion[1]> Take a statement of the Ship of Theseus and replace all of the words with synonyms, one by one
08:12:13 <\oren\> I still like "I AM POINTY DEATH INCARNATE"
08:34:24 <hppavilion[1]> ...I just heard the Ontological Argument for god...
08:34:58 <hppavilion[1]> ...wat
08:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, it was Anselm
08:40:18 <hppavilion[1]> Wait..
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09:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> ...can we say "paper authorizes removal of rock" from now on? Please?
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09:42:24 <shachaf> Maybe you can say that to your Twitter account.
09:50:48 <izalove> yeah fuck you we don't want your bureaucracy
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10:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: But it's so much less stupid than "paper covers rock"
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11:45:52 <boily> `wisdom
11:45:58 <HackEgo> finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
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12:17:25 <hppavilion[1]> The pirated His Dark Materials I'm ræding appears to be OCRd
12:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> So a lot of words are misspelled by the computer
12:18:58 <hppavilion[1]> With )s where there should be js and all the æs are just aes
12:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> And ø became o
12:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> Very sad
12:21:46 <boily> hppavellœn[1]. you couldn't get a printed copy?
12:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Not on short notice, but I will if I can
12:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: And I need the UK editions, as the US editions are edited to remove objectionable content
12:24:34 <hppavilion[1]> Which I find objectionable
12:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> Removed objectionable content is ALWAYS more objectionable than the original content
12:26:21 <hppavilion[1]> It's 03:30 here
12:26:24 <hppavilion[1]> I have school tomorrow
12:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> Can't sleep
12:27:47 <boily> ah, school...
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13:43:11 <moonythedwarf> moo
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14:42:00 * int-e slaps Tristan with 0.83 trouts and 0.17 blunt instruments
14:42:02 <int-e> uhm
14:42:18 <moonythedwarf> moo
14:44:17 <int-e> (simple typing error: this channel is assigned F10; the messages was for a channel that I have assigned F11 to)
15:15:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49850&oldid=49832 * Moon * (-4)
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15:18:29 <wob_jonas> My new home keyboard has arrived.
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15:18:42 <wob_jonas> I'm typing from it now. I'm still not completely used to it.
15:18:56 <wob_jonas> It's a heavy and loud mechanical keyboard.
15:19:08 * moonythedwarf gives Bowserinator a cookie for helping a lazy programmmer implent Gravbox
15:19:24 <moonythedwarf> x/buffer 6
15:19:31 <wob_jonas> (WD AULA blue springs keyboard for the record)
15:19:53 <wob_jonas> Very different feeling from all previous keyboards I've used.
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15:51:16 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> There are prepositions and postpositions, but what about inpositions? circumpositions? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposition_and_postposition#Classification_by_position inpositions sound suitably weird for a conlang.
15:51:16 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:52:40 <myname> i know people who did a language solely based on inposition on a pizza brrak for a role playing game race
15:53:29 <wob_jonas> myname: like M:tG?
15:55:58 <myname> how is m:tg anything like an rpg?
15:57:04 <wob_jonas> no no
15:57:32 <wob_jonas> M:tG was invented as a quick game you could play in idle times of role playing
15:57:45 <wob_jonas> (it was duels only then)
15:57:52 <int-e> myname: maybe they read "role" as "rule" :-P
16:11:55 <moonythedwarf> @src ==
16:11:55 <lambdabot> x == y = not (x /= y)
16:12:08 <moonythedwarf> @src /=
16:12:08 <lambdabot> x /= y = not (x == y)
16:12:16 <myname> known fact
16:12:43 * moonythedwarf is confused
16:12:56 <moonythedwarf> @src >
16:12:56 <lambdabot> x > y = case compare x y of
16:12:56 <lambdabot> GT -> True
16:12:56 <lambdabot> _ -> False
16:12:57 <myname> why?
16:13:09 <moonythedwarf> == uses /= and /= uses ==
16:13:24 <myname> if you want to implement Eq for your class, you just need to overwrite one
16:13:35 <moonythedwarf> i didnt, i was just curious.
16:13:36 <myname> and the other will automatically fit due default definition
16:16:15 <moonythedwarf> @src Eq
16:16:15 <lambdabot> class Eq a where
16:16:15 <lambdabot> (==), (/=) :: a -> a -> Bool
16:19:50 <oerjan> @src [] ==
16:19:50 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
16:19:56 <oerjan> @src == []
16:19:56 <lambdabot> Source not found.
16:19:58 <oerjan> :(
16:20:08 <myname> huh?
16:20:10 <oerjan> hm, i guess that's just the default derived one
16:20:28 <oerjan> myname: @src has some specific method sources too
16:20:34 <oerjan> @src Maybe >>=
16:20:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
16:20:40 <oerjan> @src >>= Maybe
16:20:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
16:20:46 <oerjan> or USED TO, anyway.
16:21:00 <oerjan> @src (>>=) Maybe
16:21:00 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
16:21:01 <moonythedwarf> @src Maybe
16:21:01 <lambdabot> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
16:21:10 <oerjan> @src Maybe (>>=)
16:21:10 <lambdabot> (Just x) >>= k = k x
16:21:10 <lambdabot> Nothing >>= _ = Nothing
16:21:13 <oerjan> ah there
16:21:25 <oerjan> stupid parenthesis and _order_ sensitivity
16:21:31 <oerjan> *_and_ order
16:22:06 <oerjan> int-e: any chance of making parentheses irrelevant in @src lookups twh
16:22:30 <oerjan> this time, i tried all three wrong combinations first
16:22:49 <int-e> I don't know
16:24:14 <oerjan> @src (>)
16:24:14 <lambdabot> x > y = case compare x y of
16:24:14 <lambdabot> GT -> True
16:24:14 <lambdabot> _ -> False
16:24:37 <oerjan> in that case, it already is, but not for looking up instance methods
16:24:58 <int-e> I don't know what the lookup looks like
16:25:05 <int-e> @src Maybe (>>=)
16:25:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
16:25:10 <int-e> @src Maybe(>>=)
16:25:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. I feel much better now.
16:25:13 <int-e> @src Maybe (>>=)
16:25:13 <lambdabot> (Just x) >>= k = k x
16:25:13 <lambdabot> Nothing >>= _ = Nothing
16:25:38 <int-e> probably just a blind lookup into a Data.Map, and then again with parentheses around everything
16:25:45 <int-e> +.Map
16:26:52 <oerjan> ah
16:31:39 <oerjan> 37 fetch x m = M.lookup x m `mplus`
16:31:39 <oerjan> 38 M.lookup (P.concat [P.singleton '(', x, P.singleton ')']) m
16:31:43 <oerjan> checks out
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16:54:09 <oerjan> @src ^>>
16:54:09 <lambdabot> f ^>> a = arr f >>> a
16:55:23 <oerjan> @src second
16:55:23 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just try something else.
16:55:39 <oerjan> @src second f = arr swap >>> first f >>> arr swap
16:55:39 <lambdabot> where swap ~(x,y) = (y,x)
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16:55:52 <oerjan> int-e: there are some bugs in the source file...
16:56:09 <oerjan> (the above is because second is missing its key line)
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17:06:22 <\oren\> man i got used to looking at the borders of eastern europe in HOI4 and now maps of europe as it is today look wrong
17:06:26 <\oren\> like, hungary doesn't border ukraine, what happended?
17:07:11 <\oren\> like what happened to the end of slovakia where id wraps arond hungary
17:09:22 <\oren\> and poland is entirely too far to the west now
17:10:01 <oerjan> \oren\: they lost a war hth
17:11:02 <\oren\> and poland no longer even has a border with latvia
17:11:32 <oerjan> \oren\: basically russia got to keep their spoils from the molotov-ribbentrop pact, while germany were forced to compensate them for poland
17:11:45 <oerjan> *the soviet union
17:12:52 <\oren\> i see, and russia also took some of slovakia and romania as well
17:12:58 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what's HOI4? and why doesn't Hungary border Ukraine?
17:13:03 <wob_jonas> I don't understand this
17:13:35 <\oren\> Hearts of Iron 4. it's a war game that starts in 1936
17:13:41 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's that game, I see people talk... right.
17:13:46 <wob_jonas> ah
17:13:51 <\oren\> so I'm now more used to seeing the old borders
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17:15:22 <\oren\> I played as hungary last night, and I took austria before hitler had a chance to do Anschluss and take it
17:16:15 <\oren\> the german AI doesn't seem to do very well in that situation
17:17:12 <oerjan> @src ,) (<*>
17:17:12 <lambdabot> (u, f) <*> (v, x) = (u `mappend` v, f x)
17:17:31 <\oren\> but now I saw a picture of europe in a news story and it looked completely wrong
17:19:05 <\oren\> why is poland so small!?!? why is germany shaped like a peanut?
17:19:46 <\oren\> and what the heck happened to yugoslavia?
17:22:49 <\oren\> i guess it fell apart as soon as they lost tito.
17:34:22 <int-e> oerjan: I knew something like that was going to happen
17:38:07 <oerjan> int-e: don't accept yet, i'm making an amendment for Source.hs
17:40:57 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I'm not used to 1936 maps, but I am used to 1900 maps, so I always find it strange that there are seven independent countries instead of Yugoslavia
17:42:17 <wob_jonas> Not that I'm not glad that the war ended, but the map looks so strange.
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17:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49851&oldid=49850 * Moon * (+2) fixed program.
17:47:33 * moonythedwarf gives Bowserinator a giant cookie for implementing Gravbox
17:47:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49852&oldid=49851 * Moon * (-2) Its now implented! :D
17:49:00 <Bowserinator> :D
17:49:25 <moonythedwarf> Bowserinator: make a wiki account and put the SRC up somewhere. and then link to it.
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17:56:29 <oerjan> hm travis
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18:01:52 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: Remind me why Belkar can float? <-- http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html
18:01:52 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:06:33 <oerjan> eep
18:06:54 <int-e> seems oerjan forgot to pack some strings
18:07:13 <oerjan> oh
18:08:44 <shachaf> @messes-loud
18:08:44 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6m 52s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: Remind me why Belkar can float? <-- http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html
18:09:17 <shachaf> Ah, right.
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18:09:34 <shachaf> oerjan: thx tdh
18:10:48 <oerjan> yw
18:17:57 <oerjan> oh that went a lot faster
18:18:23 <int-e> ah, good, second travis build was faster
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18:47:08 <olsner> is there a 2 dimensional "regexp" language? got to thinking the other day about how you might make text-based GUIs with a kind of 2-dimensional sed
18:47:44 <myname> have a look at "picture languages"
18:48:20 <olsner> myname: ooh, thanks
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19:31:19 <shachaf> `quote invisible
19:31:28 <HackEgo> 35) <ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. \ 997) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
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19:32:18 <wob_jonas> I mean 1990 maps obviously.
19:32:25 <wob_jonas> is fungot here?
19:33:03 <fizzie> Apparently not.
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19:33:37 <shachaf> fizzie: May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES.
19:33:45 <fizzie> Thanks, I guess.
19:34:24 <shachaf> hm
19:34:31 <shachaf> May you live in DIVISION TIMES.
19:34:41 <wob_jonas> keyboard
19:34:47 <wob_jonas> `/ keyboard
19:34:48 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /: cannot execute: Is a directory
19:34:50 <wob_jonas> `? keyboard
19:34:51 <HackEgo> keyboard? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:35:00 <shachaf> fizzie: May you live in TIMES WITH LEFT HALF BLACK.
19:35:28 <shachaf> These are great.
19:36:15 <fizzie> May you live in CUNEIFORM SIGN EZEN TIMES A PLUS LAL TIMES LAL.
19:36:23 <shachaf> whoa, ⨋
19:36:57 <shachaf> what does that even mean
19:37:04 <shachaf> not sure
19:37:07 <shachaf> but i want to use it
19:37:28 <shachaf> ⨋_i i*x dx
19:38:34 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Working on my absurdly inflective language
19:38:40 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-loud
19:38:40 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 47m 24s ago: <hppavilion[1]> There are prepositions and postpositions, but what about inpositions? circumpositions? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposition_and_postposition#
19:38:40 <lambdabot> Classification_by_position inpositions sound suitably weird for a conlang.
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19:39:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: For time, I currently have 5 tenses (including null tense) and 4 types of aspect (progression, perfection, evitability, and forcing)
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19:40:26 <shachaf> FINITE PART INTEGRAL [⨍]
19:40:39 <int-e> what about suppositions... they are nasty because they don't appear anywhere in the text.
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19:41:19 <shachaf> int-e: Sometimes they appear in superscript.
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19:42:11 <int-e> hmm, dinnerscript
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19:43:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: nah, that's called a dinner menu. you know the Larry Wall saying, the script is what you give to the actors, the program is what you give to the audience.
19:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Can I get dinnerscript at a dinerscript?
19:44:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: you missed a pun there, I think.
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19:44:40 <int-e> (hint, because maybe it's just too awful: supper is a meal)
19:44:44 <shachaf> 2A75 TWO CONSECUTIVE EQUALS SIGNS [⩵]
19:44:48 <shachaf> 2A76 THREE CONSECUTIVE EQUALS SIGNS [⩶]
19:45:12 <wob_jonas> oh, as in supperscript
19:45:16 <shachaf> APPROXIMATELY EQUAL OR EQUAL TO [⩰]
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19:46:32 <int-e> does the saying about exclamation marks also apply to equality signs?
19:46:54 <vmunix> issupper(meal)
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19:48:26 <int-e> Though apparently Pratchett's threshold was five: "Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind."
19:50:08 <wob_jonas> five? whew
19:50:13 <wob_jonas> so four is safe
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20:43:15 <ais523> @messa?
20:43:15 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
20:43:17 <ais523> @messag?
20:43:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages? messages
20:43:24 <ais523> oh come on :-P
20:43:26 <ais523> @messagess?
20:43:26 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
20:43:55 <shachaf> poor ais523 :'(
20:44:04 <zgrep> @tell ais523 It's okay. Have a message.
20:44:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:44:06 <shachaf> Do you want a message and/or a hug?
20:44:13 <ais523> I'm OK with not having messages
20:44:13 <wob_jonas> I do1
20:44:24 <ais523> less OK with lambdabot's persistent inability to understand my question
20:44:56 <lambdabot> I'm not sentient you know?
20:45:12 <shachaf> Do you know how lambdabot command correction works?
20:45:39 <shachaf> Your string has to be either a prefix of a command or within edit distance 2 of a command.
20:46:07 <ais523> I figured it was using edit distance 2 after the first two requests
20:46:20 <ais523> just think that a deletion should count as less than a substitution, especially given how unlikely ? is as a typo for s
20:46:32 <ais523> we need some sort of edit distance that takes qwerty into account
20:46:44 <int-e> oh, the @messag? was ambiguous.
20:46:52 <int-e> @botsnack
20:46:52 <lambdabot> :)
20:47:02 <int-e> @uptime
20:47:02 <lambdabot> uptime: 6d 11m 11s, longest uptime: 1m 12d 14h 14m 14s
20:47:11 <ais523> are there any esolangs which care about qwerty layout?
20:47:16 <ais523> as in, not just inspired by it
20:47:21 <ais523> but the key layout actually has a semantic effect?
20:47:31 <ais523> (e.g. BF with q w e r t y u i as the commands doesn't count)
20:48:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: would something that is controlled by ykulnjbh or qwedcxza or wdsa or esdx or jkli count?
20:48:41 <wob_jonas> like, if it was directions in esolang, not in a game
20:48:54 <int-e> IIUC, a 2d language that uses qweadzxc for nw,n,ne,w,e,sw,s,se movements would qualify?
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20:49:16 <int-e> uh
20:49:24 <int-e> being redundant, as usual.
20:49:41 <ais523> I'm not qure I'd allow wasd-alikes to count because it's just syntax
20:50:09 <ais523> I'm wondering if there's some way to make it semantically relevant
20:50:12 <wob_jonas> wait... you want something that's not just syntax/
20:50:14 <int-e> well, what else would it be... permuting letters is just a syntactic change after all
20:50:15 <wob_jonas> how would that work?
20:50:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't know
20:50:30 <ais523> just brainstorming
20:50:54 <ais523> something like "commands can only mention more than one variable if their names are adjacent on the keyboard"
20:51:12 <int-e> So any change of the keyboard layout is just a syntactic change, as far as I can make out. Unless you want an interpreter that actually queries what the current keyboard layout is and changes semantics based on that?
20:51:20 <int-e> (who needs portability?)
20:51:25 <wob_jonas> like brainfuck where you move between variables near each other?
20:51:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: sort of
20:52:13 <ais523> say you can only do commands like "g = h + y" (because those keys form a triangle so you can mention all three variables in the same statement)
20:52:22 <ais523> ideally we'd need a way to make the restriction actually matter though
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21:20:44 * moonythedwarf gives haskell a bear hug for being so amazing
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21:56:08 <wob_jonas> `? longcat
21:56:10 <HackEgo> longcat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:56:13 <wob_jonas> `? ceiling cat
21:56:15 <HackEgo> ceiling cat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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21:58:56 <wob_jonas> `? copycat
21:58:57 <HackEgo> copycat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:03:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SPAM/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49853&oldid=38765 * Zzo38 * (+697)
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22:13:10 <shachaf> `? cat
22:13:11 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
22:13:17 <shachaf> true
22:13:25 <shachaf> `cwlprits cat
22:13:27 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Roujo
22:13:39 <shachaf> `dowg cat
22:13:40 <ais523> how does that differ from `culprits?
22:13:40 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2015-08-13 <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-08-29 <Roujo> echo Cats are cool, but should be illegal. > wisdom/cat
22:13:46 <shachaf> ais523: Prepends wisdom/
22:13:53 <ais523> aha
22:14:20 <shachaf> Wasn't there a version of dowg that showed older entries first?
22:14:25 <shachaf> `` rgrep -li tac bin
22:14:30 <HackEgo> bin/ploki \ bin/udcli \ bin/emmental \ bin/luac \ bin/macro \ bin/multicode \ bin/jq \ bin/seens \ bin/¿ \ bin/searchlog \ bin/gs2.py \ bin/7za \ bin/lua \ bin/tclkit \ bin/shove \ bin/units
22:15:04 <shachaf> Hmm, I want to call it rowg. But that's ambiguous between dowg and howg
22:15:17 <shachaf> `` cat bin/{h,d}owg
22:15:17 <HackEgo> hoag "wisdom/$1" \ doag "wisdom/$1"
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2016-10-04
00:04:26 -!- adu has joined.
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00:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> Huh.
00:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Ada Lovelace was the (legitimate) offspring of Lord Byron
00:15:33 <hppavilion[1]> The Epitaph to a Dog guy.
00:15:35 <hppavilion[1]> Cool.
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00:29:44 <boily> `wisdom
00:29:45 <HackEgo> caps lock//CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES
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00:37:51 <boily> fungot: is CAO down?
00:37:52 <fungot> boily: a. i don't think i answer those, ihope. i yield to you.
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00:37:59 <boily> fungot: damn.
00:37:59 <fungot> boily: i just don't like how... weird... and doesn't make a difference yes? says who??? fnord ( car list)
00:38:13 <boily> fungot: well, I like that server. that's the closest one.
00:38:13 <fungot> boily: i dont think i have now spend more time typing than thinking, i'm doing work"? i'm impressed if you think about this in the mzscheme compiler manual
00:38:57 <boily> fungot: no, I think in French. messemble que depuis le temps c't'assez évident...
00:38:57 <fungot> boily: laml is neat, kipple, axo,...? yeah, i think.
00:39:14 <boily> fungot: no, a kipple is not French hth
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00:41:12 <boily> “It's not just you! http://crawl.akrasiac.org looks down from here.” thanks downforeveryoneorjustme.com!
00:41:41 <hppavilion[1]> boily: is "chicken" several of "chicke"?
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00:43:30 <boily> hppavellon[1]. no, it undergoes vowel-mutation. singular is checkan.
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00:43:38 <boily> hellørjan! do you mutate?
00:43:46 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Ah, but what's the dual?
00:43:56 <boily> chickenayim.
00:43:59 <oerjan> helloily! constantly!
00:44:06 <oerjan> very slowly, though.
00:44:16 <boily> . o O ( there seems to be a pun in there, but where... )
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00:44:36 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( We need an enhanced plural schema for english with distinct rules for infinite cardinals )
00:44:55 <oerjan> it wasn't conscious, but _maybe_ you could say "constant" is the opposite of "mutating".
00:45:41 <hppavilion[1]> English also needs indefinite form- not singular or plural or dual; no grammatical number at all
00:46:24 <hppavilion[1]> So, like, if the schema is +ae, the indefinite of dog would be dogae, which means 1 (or should it be 0?) or more dog(s)
00:47:21 <oerjan> modified english is the brainfuck derivative of conlangs hth
00:51:20 <ais523> except it's less easy to implement
00:52:05 <ais523> that said, surprisingly many BF derivatives have non-nesting [] because the author couldn't figure out how to implement them
00:52:26 <ais523> (in at least one case, this is for a good reason as the derivative was created to prove another language TC; it was replaced by a conditional goto)
00:54:05 <boily> which language is the most surprisingly TC?
00:54:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well yeah...
00:54:47 <hppavilion[1]> boily: /// maybe?
00:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh my god #esoteric is discussing esolangs... weird...)
00:55:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Even better, which language is the most surprisingly ¬TC
00:57:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Though, I wasn't going for a conlang modifying english; more for making people use it under pain of glaring so it's just part of english
01:03:18 <hppavilion[1]> I want to create a company for which the name violates English order of adjectives...
01:03:45 <oerjan> @ssages?
01:03:45 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
01:03:52 <oerjan> ais523: ^ >:)
01:04:02 <ais523> that's cheating :-P
01:04:56 <oerjan> @messes?
01:04:56 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
01:05:12 <shachaf> 10:08 <shachaf> @messes-loud
01:05:30 <oerjan> @messages-
01:05:30 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
01:05:39 <oerjan> shachaf: FAIL
01:06:02 <oerjan> (i assume we're golfing)
01:06:19 <shachaf> Golfing what?
01:06:26 <oerjan> lambdabot commands
01:06:26 <shachaf> That question made no sense.
01:06:37 <shachaf> It was obvious what you were golfing.
01:07:02 <shachaf> I don't know why I wrote it.
01:07:06 <shachaf> The point was I wasn't golfing.
01:07:26 <shachaf> 15:53:17 <shachaf> @messageese-loud
01:07:56 <oerjan> @messages-lousy
01:07:56 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
01:12:09 * boily needs his dose of crawl, fungot it!
01:14:36 <tswett> Man, I love ///.
01:15:40 <oerjan> fungot?
01:15:40 <fungot> oerjan: four files: fnord, which might be very sensitive to medications).
01:16:10 <oerjan> fungot: has boily been overusing you
01:16:10 <fungot> oerjan: scheme48 has immutable objects in general. i'm spending a lot of work
01:17:09 <oerjan> @@ @messages-
01:17:09 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: user error (Unknown command: "messages-")
01:17:14 * boily pokes fungot
01:17:14 <fungot> boily: would you /please/ stop playing with me... i am not sure whether they're _required_ to have constant time....
01:17:23 <boily> BWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH :D
01:17:42 <oerjan> definitely overused.
01:20:32 <tswett> Say.
01:20:53 <tswett> Y'all know about MegaHAL. It's that one chatterbot you can download and play with, that was created in 1998.
01:21:29 <tswett> Is there a more modern chatterbot that you can also download and train and run locally?
01:22:00 <oerjan> fungot hth
01:22:00 <fungot> oerjan: someone drank all the milk again, have you got any nice stuff :) forthers would say that the branches are mutually exclusive sounds more restrictive than doing the 32-bit math in the first
01:22:26 <oerjan> fungot: i have coke zero
01:22:27 <fungot> oerjan: i'm sure you can try ideologies, but be extremely rigid on the ones where you press combinations of keys are mutually exclusive in style.
01:23:15 <boily> fungot: I make a mean Hong Kong style milk tea, if you want to stay awake for the next 12 hours.
01:23:15 <fungot> boily: it's so straight-forward i'm not even in that movie a dozen times. always the same. i think his solution is quite workable for individual use or in other words
01:24:49 <wob_jonas> welcome back, fungot
01:24:49 <fungot> wob_jonas: or maybe ,trace fnord/ fnord/ images/ fnord
01:25:02 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i made `hurl hth
01:25:11 <boily> `? hurl
01:25:12 <HackEgo> hurl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:25:39 <shachaf> `cat bin/hurl
01:25:40 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
01:25:44 <wob_jonas> hurl hurl hur
01:26:01 <shachaf> `doag bin/hurl
01:26:04 <HackEgo> 2016-10-02 <oerjan> ` cp bin/{,h}url; sed -i \'11s/file/log/\' bin/hurl
01:26:07 <oerjan> it is the same as `url except for a single word
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01:26:37 <shachaf> `url bin/hurl
01:26:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/hurl
01:26:48 <oerjan> `hurl bin/url
01:26:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin/url
01:27:33 <shachaf> are you invalidating all my dog work
01:28:23 <boily> does a pooch have the Buddha-nature?
01:28:25 <oerjan> shachaf: not necessarily. sometimes the log for a file is a bit too long to browse on irc, is all.
01:28:49 <oerjan> also the web browser seems to leave out obvious edits :(
01:28:53 <shachaf> are you invalidating all my dog work and all my spam work
01:29:16 <oerjan> YES BECAUSE I'M EVIL *MWAHAHAHA*
01:29:28 <oerjan> (sometimes you can't win so better go for the carnage)
01:29:42 <shachaf> \texrb *\rainbow{MWAHAHAHA}*
01:29:45 <shachaf> oops
01:29:47 * ybden plays with fungot
01:29:47 <fungot> ybden: a very general answer; i'm looking for one that's simple to understand.
01:29:53 <shachaf> that's embarrassing
01:29:55 <shachaf> *MWAHAHAHA*
01:30:22 * ybden plays with fungot some more
01:30:22 <fungot> ybden: probably someone's done one already
01:30:29 <ybden> fungot: done one what?
01:30:29 <fungot> ybden: " reiserfs the file system to die for! and especially to evaluate in your head, everywhere you need to duplicate the lines then. sorry, once again we return to a non-extended one would wipe away the original text :)
01:30:44 <ybden> D: it was indeed a file system to die for, for some
01:31:02 <ybden> fungot: you say some worrying things
01:31:02 <fungot> ybden: oh, i'm just a coop stuck with the lamest parts of the pre-scheme source code for it
01:31:09 <ybden> fungot: I see.
01:31:30 <ybden> *silence*
01:33:02 <boily> ybdellon. once you reach the fungothreshold, he won't answer to you. somebody else has to summon him between runs.
01:33:02 <fungot> boily: that was fast. almost at fnord packing up. hrmph.), sieni_. would you refer to is all part of the set!
01:33:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> Hmm, I want to call it rowg. But that's ambiguous between dowg and howg <-- drwg hth
01:34:01 <shachaf> oerjan: But that doesn't sound like "rogue".
01:34:58 <oerjan> shocking
01:39:38 <tswett> fungot: are you a MegaHAL?
01:39:39 <fungot> tswett: mmm sounds like it involves robotic breasts. college of engineering.
01:40:19 <izalove> this bot is getting better and better every day
01:41:39 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
01:41:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:42:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
01:42:24 <wob_jonas> fungot, are you improving?
01:42:25 <fungot> wob_jonas: 1 gregorr: bf8 isn't harmfull
01:42:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Client Quit).
01:43:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
01:43:21 <hppavilion[1]> Challenge: Produce a mathematical generalization of the 12 days of christmas
01:44:48 <izalove> a for loop...?
01:45:16 <boily> fungot: uhm... you want to have, robotic breasts?
01:45:16 <fungot> boily: then it rejects all functions that don't return, tco falls into place, though. do you plan to support paredit.el for xemacs as well?
01:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: No?
01:49:17 <izalove> two nested for loops?
01:49:28 -!- adu has joined.
01:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I'm looking for a generalization
01:53:49 <izalove> what does that mean?
01:54:51 -!- boily has quit (Quit: QUANDARY CHICKEN.).
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01:57:21 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
01:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> adu!
01:58:06 <adu> I'm starting to hate LDAP
02:00:40 <hppavilion[1]> LDAP??
02:01:30 <adu> yes
02:03:38 <adu> I need to organize the configuration of Servers, Flavors, Users, and Groups.
02:03:40 <hppavilion[1]> adu: What is LDAP
02:03:55 <adu> oh you don't know what it is
02:03:58 <shachaf> low density audio platform hth
02:04:14 <adu> "Lightweight Directory Access Protocol"
02:04:39 <shachaf> long and delicate pincers
02:06:17 <adu> shachaf: that's LADP
02:06:28 <shachaf> so it is
02:06:33 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you a windows person?
02:06:41 <izalove> are you a person?
02:06:44 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, unfortunately
02:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: THAT IS NOT YOUR DOMAIN TO KNOW
02:06:55 <shachaf> large distracted antwerp pooch
02:06:56 <adu> hppavilion[1]: ahh, then you might recognize "Active Directory"
02:06:59 * moonythedwarf runs around in circles
02:07:54 <wob_jonas> list detected active protocols
02:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> How to troll brits with numbers: Follow these rules: (1) If '0' is 'oh', then 1 is 'el', 5 is 'es'; say 'single oh' every time there's a zero (along with 'double oh'); express everything as its prime factorization
02:09:35 <shachaf> long distance argumentative parrot
02:10:05 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with Active Directory?
02:10:07 <shachaf> That sounds like a good post for your Twitter account.
02:10:09 <hppavilion[1]> Nope
02:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I got blocked because I look like a bot, remember
02:10:26 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with the concept of a "User"
02:10:34 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yes.
02:10:40 <tswett> Wouldn't it be great if C# supported generic generic parameters?
02:10:41 <hppavilion[1]> Should I just google LDAP?
02:10:46 <adu> hppavilion[1]: LDAP is a "User" Database
02:10:48 <shachaf> And so you continue the same behavior in IRC?
02:10:58 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I think I get it
02:11:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...yes?
02:11:06 * moonythedwarf sends hppavilion[1] around in circles
02:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> :,
02:11:14 <hppavilion[1]> *:,(
02:11:23 <tswett> public abstract class Monad<M<>> { public abstract M<T> Join<T>(M<M<T>> input); ... }
02:11:52 <shachaf> You're ...ing return because you can't type it?
02:12:34 <tswett> public abstract M<T> Return<T>(T input);
02:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> Serious question: Is there an equivalent to the FLA for HCNs?
02:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. "all numbers can be expressed as a quotient of HCNs")
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02:14:22 * tswett looks up what that stuff is on Wikipedia.
02:14:23 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_composite_number
02:14:35 <tswett> By FLA, do you mean the Fundamental Theory of Arithmetic?
02:16:17 <oerjan> . o O ( /kickban hppavilion[1] Obvious bot )
02:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Theorem, but yes
02:17:20 <shachaf> Fundamental Law of Arithmetic, surely
02:17:47 <shachaf> The theorem is this: The positive naturals are a free commutative monoid generated by the primes under multiplication.
02:17:51 <tswett> Oops, my fallibility is showing.
02:18:24 <tswett> shachaf: damn it. I read as far as "the theorem is this" and decided to one-up you by giving *my* favorite statement of the theorem...
02:18:45 <zzo38> What is your statement, then?
02:19:03 <tswett> And then I realized that what you said *is* my favorite statement (more or less).
02:19:16 <zzo38> OK
02:19:29 <tswett> Here's how I like to phrase it:
02:19:46 <tswett> "The commutative monoid of the positive integers under multiplication is a free commutative monoid."
02:20:14 <tswett> Same thing, really.
02:20:48 <shachaf> Maybe I should have moved "under multiplication" nine words earlier.
02:22:21 <tswett> I left out "generated by the primes" because you can just define the primes as being the generators.
02:22:48 <shachaf> You mean you can figure it out.
02:23:01 <shachaf> But the point of the theorem is that it's what you get after you figure it out.
02:24:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh, yes, FTA
02:24:46 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You can fix that by becoming pope
02:25:04 <hppavilion[1]> Another thing I thought of offhand today: orders of composite numbers
02:25:12 <tswett> I guess what I'm unintentionally suggesting is that you could first prove the FTA, and then use the FTA to define the prime numbers.
02:25:20 <hppavilion[1]> A first-order composite number is a prime number (...yeah, sorry)
02:25:40 <tswett> "The positive integers under multiplication are a free commutative monoid. Define the prime numbers as the generators of this monoid."
02:25:43 <shachaf> Certainly, if you generate a free monoid from a countably infinite set, what you get is isomorphic to the positive naturals under multiplication.
02:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> An nth-order composite number is an (n-1)th-order composite number times a first-order composite number
02:26:08 <shachaf> But if you already know the positive naturals, and you already know the primes, then telling you that those primes in particular generate the positive naturals is pretty good.
02:26:13 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so an nth-order composite number is a number with exactly n prime factors?
02:26:33 <hppavilion[1]> (this is equivalent to saying that the composite order of a number is the cardinality of the bag of its prime factors)
02:26:36 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes
02:26:39 <tswett> Yeah, that.
02:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, is there a prime factorial function? Or, more accurately, there is a prime factorial function, but does it have any use?
02:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> x‽ = product({p : p ≤ x, p in |P})
02:28:11 <tswett> I think that's called the primorial function.
02:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Really or in an #esoteric way?
02:28:34 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, yep
02:28:37 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primorial
02:28:47 <shachaf> Sylvan Primordial
02:28:58 <tswett> "In general for a positive integer n {\displaystyle n} n, a primorial n # {\displaystyle n\#} {\displaystyle n\#} can also be defined, namely as the product of those primes ≤ n {\displaystyle n} n:"
02:29:03 <tswett> I apologize for the wonky copy-paste.
02:29:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: hey, I have a random question for you.
02:29:54 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You may proceed
02:30:11 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: do you have any thoughts as to where you want to start your career?
02:30:20 <tswett> Like, software development, mathematics research, something else?
02:30:26 <shachaf> That question has a rather big assumption, doesn't it?
02:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> NO idea
02:31:15 <tswett> shachaf: that hppavilion[1] wants to have a career?
02:31:24 <shachaf> I don't even know what a career is.
02:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> There's more potential for success in private sector dev, but I'm drawn to academics on... almost moral grounds
02:32:15 <shachaf> i,i not a career in the world
02:32:32 <shachaf> Your sense of morality has already been established to be very suspect.
02:32:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I kind of feel like I'm doomed to eventually go to grad school.
02:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Excellent
02:32:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iovoid * New user account
02:33:01 <shachaf> Uh oh.
02:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, I want to be Dr. Naþan, so...)
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02:33:44 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think my industry experience is going to be really valuable if I ever want to do business-oriented research.
02:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> Yep
02:34:14 <tswett> It's easier to design a business-oriented programming language if you have experience doing business-oriented programming..
02:34:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Apparently there are two conflicting definitions of primorial- one is what I said above, the other is the product of the first n primes. I'm already developing strong opinions on it.)
02:37:27 -!- adu has joined.
02:43:47 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I know. The primorial function should be a function PrimeCut -> N, where PrimeCut is the collection of all downward closed sets of prime numbers.
02:51:18 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, norway doesn't even have a legal minimum wage
02:52:08 <izalove> neither does italy
02:53:07 <zzo38> I think it is OK a minimum wage should not be needed
02:53:19 <oerjan> shachaf: see, your minimum wage is only a half-assed compensation for the fact you don't have properly powerful labor unions hth
02:53:43 <shachaf> oerjan: the government is the most powerful labor union of all hth
02:53:47 <shachaf> except it's not very good
02:53:51 <shachaf> at labor unioning
02:55:07 <oerjan> it doesn't count as a labor union if the employers have more say than the laborers hth
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03:10:37 <shachaf> what if british banks have the most say
03:10:43 <shachaf> does it count as a libor union
03:11:19 <shachaf> oerjan: do you think the us minimum wage should be raised
03:12:03 <oerjan> my prejudices say yes.
03:12:15 <oerjan> my actual knowledge is insufficient hth
03:12:29 <ais523> I know that I decided to do some amateur economics that's probably terrible in the wake of Brexit
03:13:05 <ais523> and concluded that in response to Brexit, the UK minimum wage should probably be increased, with a reduction in corporation tax to compensate
03:13:18 <ais523> then I was surprised to see that many actual economists had come to the same conclusion
03:13:23 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think about the tipped employee minimum wage exception
03:13:44 <oerjan> scowissimus hth
03:14:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:14:02 <ais523> shachaf: I think it's ridiculous, I don't like the idea of peoples' livelihoods depending on customs rather than actual rules
03:14:12 <shachaf> anyway it doesn't apply in california
03:14:23 <ais523> in the UK, tipping at restaurants is rare apart from very high-end ones
03:14:39 <ais523> like, if someone takes your order while you're seated, then later physically delivers your food
03:14:43 <alercah> it doesn't directly depend on custom though
03:14:43 <ais523> tipping would be usual
03:14:45 <shachaf> even where it does apply, the minimum wage is the lower bound, with the employer having to pay the difference if necessary
03:14:53 <alercah> ^
03:15:00 <alercah> that said, the US minimum wage is a joke
03:15:03 <shachaf> but it's still scow
03:15:17 <shachaf> ais523: How did you come to that conclusion?
03:15:17 <izalove> would you star a repo called silver-giggle?
03:15:20 <izalove> on github
03:15:38 <shachaf> you wouldn't star a scow
03:15:53 <izalove> i'm wondering how popular i'd be if i created repos with the names github suggested
03:16:15 <alercah> ais523: I'm headed to England for the weeked (... stupid, I know), is tipping like that only for high end restaurants, or just anywhere where there is sit-down service?
03:16:32 <alercah> (fwiw I have stopped tipping at restaurants that do not offer full sit-down service. I feel the need to draw the line)
03:16:52 <alercah> so many places have started asking for tips because it's just a configuration option on the credit card machine
03:17:09 <ais523> alercah: has to be fairly high-end
03:17:24 <ais523> also the usual tip is approximately 10% but it's common to round it so that the total price paid is a round number
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03:17:35 <ais523> so it might be 9% or 11% depending on the exact price of the meal
03:17:58 <shachaf> I think in the US the standard restaurant tip is ~20%.
03:18:56 <ais523> (nobody would be annoyed if you didn't round it; it's just usual to do so)
03:19:31 <shachaf> The UK minimum wage seems to be higher than the US's but lower than California's. Of course it's hard to compare these things.
03:19:43 <shachaf> My impression of UK software engineer wages was that they're very low compared to the US, but I don't know whether that's true.
03:19:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49854&oldid=49847 * Iovoid * (+222)
03:19:51 <shachaf> Maybe comparing to silly valley is unfair.
03:20:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49855 * Iovoid * (+1151) Created page for VoidLang
03:20:40 <alercah> it is, partly because silicon valley wages are high due to living costs
03:20:55 <alercah> (seriously, try adjusting the wages for cost of living and, while still quite high, they are far more reasonable)
03:21:16 <alercah> shachaf: here, the standard tip is 15-20% depending who you ask
03:21:22 <alercah> but traditionally this is on the pre-tax price
03:21:34 <alercah> nowadays the credit card machines do it for you, but they apply it to the total prie
03:21:41 <shachaf> Well, if wages scale linearly with cost of living, then it makes sense to live in the most expensive place you can find.
03:21:43 <alercah> so a lot of people started tipping more without knowing it
03:22:34 <shachaf> scow stipping
03:22:45 <alercah> yeah tipping is dumb
03:22:49 <alercah> just kill it
03:22:51 <alercah> outlaw it
03:22:57 <shachaf> so is cow tipping
03:24:15 <ais523> <shachaf> Well, if wages scale linearly with cost of living, then it makes sense to live in the most expensive place you can find. ← that might explain London :-P
03:24:45 <ais523> London has a semi-serious issue in that housing there is in such high demand for people who work high-paying jobs in the captial
03:24:53 <shachaf> is London more expensive than the san franciscow bay area?
03:25:24 <ais523> that all the people who work support jobs, people like shelf stackers and doctors and the like, can't afford to live there on their smaller salaries
03:26:12 <ais523> london is probably less expensive than san fransisco
03:26:18 <ais523> but it's basically like a transport/housing black hole
03:26:32 <shachaf> Do UK doctors make much less money than US doctors? I think I might've heard someone say that once.
03:26:33 <ais523> a house anywhere where it's possible to commute to London to do a job is more expensive as a result
03:26:40 <ais523> even if the commute is ridiculous
03:26:50 <shachaf> How much is typical London rent?
03:27:39 <ais523> average price to buy for a flat is £494,329
03:27:43 <ais523> it's harder to figure out the renting value
03:27:52 <shachaf> @google 494329 GBP in USD
03:27:53 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
03:27:58 <shachaf> That used to work.
03:28:03 <alercah> San Francisco is the most expensive housing in the world IIRC
03:28:10 <alercah> SF refuses to permit densification
03:28:15 <shachaf> That's pretty expensive, but it would be quite cheap in San Francisco.
03:28:28 <alercah> so the prices are skyrocketing because the supply is limited by the arbitrary rules about how high you can build
03:29:25 <ais523> it seems like most rental prices in London are in the £1000-2000 range
03:29:35 <ais523> per month, that is
03:30:24 <ais523> and £12000 per year is a plausible salary for someone's first job after graduating university
03:30:51 <shachaf> That seems like practically minimum wage.
03:30:59 <shachaf> I think a 1-bedroom apartment in Berkeley, where I live, would be in that range.
03:31:03 <ais523> well a huge proportion of the country goes to university
03:31:14 <shachaf> Probably toward the mid-upper end of the range unless you get a cheap one?
03:31:50 <ais523> minimum wage in the UK varies by age: for 21-24 year olds it's £6.95
03:31:54 <ais523> per hour
03:31:55 <zzo38> Does anything support the "Accept-Features" HTTP header?
03:32:22 <ais523> at 40 hours per week for 45 weeks, that's £12510
03:32:22 <shachaf> i,i Accept-Features: Accept-Features
03:32:46 <ais523> wow, no wonder early graduate employment is in a mess
03:33:56 <ais523> also, apprentices only have to be paid £3.40 per hour in the first year of their apprenticeship, that seems very low
03:34:02 <ais523> https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates for anyone who wants to look up the numbers
03:34:17 <alercah> ais523: it's also 50 weeks on this continent
03:34:47 <ais523> I was guessing at the amount of holiday allowance
03:35:04 <ais523> also, the amount of time spent looking for jobs when one fixed-term job after another ends
03:35:16 <ais523> (only slightly bitter about that…)
03:35:21 <ais523> I've applied for a couple of jobs but haven't heard back for weeks
03:35:31 <shachaf> What sorts of jobs?
03:36:02 <ais523> academic jobs, one in teaching, one in research
03:36:12 <ais523> both fields where I have experience
03:37:29 <alercah> ais523: do you not have public insurance for the in-between-jobs periods?
03:38:00 <ais523> alercah: yes, but it comes with a huge number of restrictions
03:38:06 <ais523> and the amount isn't that great
03:38:10 <ais523> I was hoping to avoid it
03:38:21 <ais523> but might be forced into it if the jobs take much longer
03:38:36 <ais523> (one of the requirements is that you have to spend much of your time applying for jobs, including ones that are a terrible fit)
03:39:00 <shachaf> Why do you want to stay in Birmingham?
03:39:02 <alercah> ahh, I believe that's not the case here; you are not expected to switch fields
03:39:26 <alercah> also if you haven't heard back in weeks it's not unreasonable to follow up
03:39:49 <ais523> shachaf: I'm really bad at travelling and living in unfamiliar places
03:39:51 <ais523> I haven't moved house /ever/
03:40:12 <ais523> other people have moved out, but I just stayed
03:40:32 <shachaf> And you also don't want to become good at it?
03:40:36 <ais523> and when I've been abroad for conferences and the like it's been terrible
03:40:45 <alercah> why terrible?
03:40:50 <alercah> lack of routine?
03:40:51 <shachaf> What an odd thing. My family moved around probably every few years when I was young.
03:41:23 <ais523> alercah: sometimes I have problems doing even basic tasks in unfamiliar environments
03:41:38 <ais523> I almost starved to death while in France because I have food intolerances and most of the food would have triggered one or another
03:41:45 <alercah> oh, ouch :(
03:41:47 <ais523> or, well, that's an exaggeration
03:41:55 <ais523> I had enough food to live off but it was a very repetitive diet
03:41:57 <alercah> I have enough food allergies that I understand what you mean
03:42:04 <ais523> I basically lived off BLT sandwiches and crisps
03:42:26 <shachaf> I couldn't remember whether crisps are "chips" or "crackers".
03:42:29 <shachaf> I guess they're "chips".
03:42:35 <alercah> yes
03:42:38 <ais523> "potato chips" in US English, yes
03:43:02 <shachaf> poochtato
03:43:04 <alercah> ais523: I think that it is something that takes getting used to
03:44:18 <ais523> the other thing is that Birmingham is almost exactly the right size for me
03:44:29 <alercah> that is a handy feature
03:44:31 <ais523> it has a good variety of places within walking distance, for example
03:44:33 <alercah> I wish KW were slightly larger
03:44:38 <alercah> or more accurately
03:44:44 <alercah> slightly more people in the same area
03:44:58 <shachaf> Kitchener-Waterloo?
03:45:20 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
03:45:48 <shachaf> San Francisco is so small.
03:46:00 <shachaf> It's not even the biggest city by population in the San Francisco Bay area.
03:46:50 <Cale> Hm, I never really had that thought when I was there :)
03:47:05 <Cale> (assuming you're talking about Kitchener-Waterloo)
03:48:17 <shachaf> kitchen 'er water loo? i 'ardly know 'er!
03:49:20 <shachaf> Maybe I should visit Toronto.
03:49:23 <shachaf> I hear it's a good place.
03:51:09 <\oren\> five hours till 10 AM in berlin
03:51:29 <\oren\> wikileaks approaching tick tock
03:51:35 <shachaf> Kitchener used to be called Berlin
03:51:54 <shachaf> Until 1916
03:52:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49856&oldid=49117 * Ais523 * (+156) /* C */ mirror of Blak
03:53:03 <alercah> shachaf: yes, kitchener-waterloo
03:53:16 <alercah> Cale: that KW could be denser?
03:53:21 <shachaf> ais523: Have you considered some sort of software type of job? I hear they're good.
03:53:37 <shachaf> (I'm not sure I actually hear that. I mostly hear people complaining about them.)
03:54:03 <ais523> shachaf: considered it, yes
03:54:13 <ais523> if the current jobs fall through then that's my fallback
03:57:19 <shachaf> I think I worked in the same building as Don Woods once.
03:57:26 <shachaf> But I suspect his job was not related to INTERCAL.
03:57:32 <izalove> guess the next term 3 7 13 31 61 127 251
03:57:38 <shachaf> 0
03:57:45 <izalove> guess again
03:57:47 <shachaf> 0
03:57:55 <izalove> you're eliminated
03:58:07 <ais523> hmm, let's let lambdabot have a guess
03:58:09 <shachaf> izalove: http://slbkbs.org/math-diff-2-4.txt hth
03:58:13 <ais523> @oeis 3 7 13 31 61 127 251
03:58:14 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A014234 Largest prime <= 2^n.
03:58:14 <lambdabot> [2,3,7,13,31,61,127,251,509,1021,2039,4093,8191,16381,32749,65521,131071,262...
03:58:25 <ais523> izalove: lambdabot guesses 509
03:58:41 <izalove> how does lambdabot find it?
03:59:00 <izalove> it's not even in the first page of results on oeis.org
03:59:03 <ais523> basically it just searches in a huge database of sequences
03:59:29 <izalove> i know what oeis is
03:59:37 <\oren\> @oeis 12 34 56 78 90
03:59:37 <lambdabot> Sequence not found.
03:59:40 <shachaf> Sure it is.
03:59:42 <shachaf> http://oeis.org/search?q=3%2C7%2C13%2C31%2C61%2C127%2C251
04:00:00 <izalove> oh it works with commas
04:00:02 <ais523> http://oeis.org/search?q=3%2C7%2C13%2C31%2C61%2C127%2C251&language=english&go=Search
04:00:09 <ais523> right, commas
04:00:13 <\oren\> @oeis 12 34
04:00:15 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A035485 Card on top of deck at n-th stage of R. K. Guy's sh...
04:00:15 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,1,6,5,9,1,4,2,16,10,12,14,23,16,18,20,17,27,30,33,38,10,14,37,32,6,11...
04:00:21 <\oren\> @oeis 12 34 56
04:00:22 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A059805 Natural numbers written with digits grouped in pair...
04:00:22 <lambdabot> [12,34,56,78,91,1,11,21,31,41,51,61,71,81,92,2,12,22,32,42,52,62,72,82,93,3,...
04:00:47 <ais523> I was going to say, that sequence doesn't have an obvious way to continue indefinitely
04:00:52 <ais523> but it looks like OEIS knew of one
04:00:53 <shachaf> @oeis 01 23 45 67 89
04:00:54 <lambdabot> Sequence not found.
04:01:26 <\oren\> @oeis 3 1 4 1 5
04:01:39 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000796 Decimal expansion of Pi (or, digits of Pi).
04:01:39 <lambdabot> [3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6,5,3,5,8,9,7,9,3,2,3,8,4,6,2,6,4,3,3,8,3,2,7,9,5,0,2,8,8,4,1...
04:02:14 <ais523> shachaf: re the minimum wage rise / corporation tax cut, my reasoning was that it's logical that if you're being protectionist wrt workers, you'd want to ensure that all the jobs were filled via increasing pay, as you can't rely on migrant workers any more
04:03:42 <\oren\> I prefer mercantilism to protectionism. Buy cheap and sell dear, on the level of nationstates
04:04:23 <shachaf> i,i buy sheep and sell deer
04:05:05 <ais523> \oren\: I didn't want to make a judgement as to whether protectionism was a good thing, just work out how you'd have to adjust things in the likely event that it's implemented
04:05:25 <izalove> shachaf: a little topological group representation theory is not amiss if you happen to end up a quantum mechanic, repairing other peoples' quanta when they begin to wear out
04:05:27 <izalove> i lold
04:05:47 <\oren\> if you can mak sure you sell lots of finished goods and buy only raw materials, then money will flow into your country...
04:06:30 <ais523> \oren\: well the UK's exports are mostly services
04:08:08 <shachaf> \oren\: Is money flowing into your country a good thing?
04:08:24 <shachaf> Money isn't even real.
04:09:00 <shachaf> If real world goods are flowing out of your country and in return some numbers get bigger, is that really to your advantage?
04:09:06 <\oren\> yes. if your country has more money, then on average everyone in your country has more moeny
04:09:47 <shachaf> But money is still not real.
04:10:22 <\oren\> in the time of mercantilism, moeny was gold
04:10:39 <shachaf> Well, at least you can't print gold.
04:11:19 <\oren\> you could do a similar thing creating a policy where your country is gathering large amounts of any valuable thing
04:11:34 <\oren\> gold happened to be the thing in the 1800's
04:12:01 <\oren\> most countries still have their gold reserves
04:12:12 <shachaf> \oren\: What do you think of this crackpot-sounding PDF? http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
04:12:17 <shachaf> (It starts at page 11.)
04:12:35 <\oren\> but gold is no longer that useful
04:12:35 <shachaf> It says some things that are obviously problematic, but I'm not sure what to make of the overall idea.
04:12:47 <shachaf> Gold has never been that useful.
04:12:53 <\oren\> I would recommend that countries gather plutonium
04:13:04 <Cale> alercah: yeah, I mean, there are obviously denser cities, but I didn't feel like it was too sparse or anything... there always seemed to be plenty of stuff to do.
04:13:20 <shachaf> Cale: What did you think of New York?
04:13:22 <izalove> shachaf: ooh you're the author
04:13:24 <shachaf> Wait, were you in NY or Boston?
04:13:26 <shachaf> izalove: ?
04:13:28 <izalove> and jsgif is cool
04:13:30 <\oren\> plutonium stockpiles are very valuable to a country
04:13:31 <izalove> your site
04:13:35 <shachaf> izalove: I'm not the author of that text.
04:13:39 <izalove> okk
04:13:42 <shachaf> There's a reference at the top.
04:13:47 <shachaf> It's from a book.
04:13:48 <izalove> you're the author of the description for jsgif?
04:14:07 <shachaf> I thought you were talking about the excerpt from _Mathematics Made Difficult_
04:14:14 <alercah> Cale: It's not bad if you have a car
04:14:15 <shachaf> Which is a good book.
04:14:23 <shachaf> Cale: Did you read that book?
04:14:37 <izalove> do you have a blog?
04:14:38 <alercah> right now, with the construction, travelling by foot/bus is pretty bad
04:15:24 <\oren\> shachaf: well gold used to be useful because eveyone used it as money
04:15:34 <Cale> shachaf: New York is fun to visit, but it's a bit stressful.
04:15:55 <\oren\> you could make a case for countries to crate large stockpiles of american dollars...
04:16:09 <Cale> shachaf: I've been to both NYC and Boston in somewhat recent times
04:16:12 <shachaf> Here's a PDF (25MB): http://i7-dungeon.sourceforge.net/math_hard.pdf
04:16:17 <\oren\> or other "safe" currencies
04:16:34 <alercah> agreed re NYC
04:18:17 <shachaf> `olist 1054
04:18:18 <HackEgo> olist 1054: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
04:19:21 <ais523> so why don't people just put a ping on `olist, rather than adding themself to the list?
04:19:57 <shachaf> Maybe some people do.
04:21:15 <shachaf> I think there might be some lists with no official subscribers?
04:21:36 <zzo38> It is what I suggested for `danddreclist too, and use that even if HackEgo won't respond for any reason
04:21:56 <zzo38> But yes, also with other stuff such as `olist I suggest you can do that kind of stuff.
04:30:17 <shachaf> \oren\: What do you think of that PDF?
04:37:55 <oerjan> <ais523> so why don't people just put a ping on `olist, rather than adding themself to the list? <-- i usually see the `olist in the logs, not in irssi.
04:38:18 <ais523> well in that case your name isn't pinging you either
04:38:23 <ais523> unless you grep for your name in the logs, I guess
04:38:39 <ais523> grep is sort-of an after-the-fact log-based version of pinging
04:38:42 <oerjan> i search for my name in IE hth
04:39:06 <oerjan> it's very reasonable as long as it's only one string
04:40:11 <quintopia> i was excited for a moment when the channel was vaguely about esolangs. can we do that again? :P
04:40:41 <ais523> what were we discussing?
04:40:52 <ais523> did you see my edit to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Black?
04:41:16 <ais523> (apparently the interp has vanished and wasn't in the web archive, so I rehosted it; it's not my interp but I happened to have a copy saved)
04:46:26 <quintopia> it's been a decade man
04:46:31 <quintopia> you should have proved it TC by now
04:47:58 <\oren\> shachaf: it's a very vehement exposition of some blindly obvious facts, combined with some bullshit
04:48:00 <ais523> I haven't been working on it all that time!
04:48:09 <ais523> also, the fact of my edit, and the circumstances surrounding it
04:48:21 <ais523> increase the chance that someone else will prove it TC and save me the bother :-P
04:49:04 <quintopia> considering that you already understand it well enough to write a meaningful program in it means you have a head start on all such people
04:49:38 <quintopia> ...but i'll think about it anyway
04:50:19 <shachaf> \oren\: I can't tell whether the first part is true.
04:53:58 <\oren\> well, i mean, it's obvious that with fiat currency and in particular with electronic money, the government can create as much money as it wants or needs at any time
04:54:13 <shachaf> Yes, that much is obvious.
04:54:26 <shachaf> (Except the federal reserve system is very complicated for some reason.)
04:54:43 <shachaf> But are all the consequences of that obvious?
04:56:32 <\oren\> no, because he made other assumptions
04:56:43 <shachaf> Yes.
04:57:21 <shachaf> For example, people talk about government deficits being bad, and say that a government's spending should be lower than its tax revenue.
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04:57:44 <shachaf> But if money is created only by the government, and you want the money supply to grow, is that really the case?
04:57:51 <\oren\> firstly, if a government prints too much money, its citizens will silently rebel by using foreign currencies and barter, not silently suffer
04:58:27 <shachaf> Of course there are negative consequences to printing unlimited amount of money.
04:58:47 <shachaf> (I don't think there was a claim to the contrary.)
04:59:13 <shachaf> Of course, money is introduced by many people other than the government.
05:00:15 <\oren\> no, but there are a bunch of places where I think he ignores the fact that currencies can start to compete within the economy
05:00:51 <\oren\> that is, not all transactions use the official currency of a country, especially when there is dysfunction
05:01:00 <shachaf> Of course.
05:01:37 <shachaf> One of the goals of anyone who makes any sort of currency is to have people trust it.
05:02:50 <\oren\> so not only will other countries not accept your currency, but a government can't actually force its citizens to use a currency
05:03:44 <shachaf> Well, they can require taxes to be paid in that currency.
05:03:50 <\oren\> so inflation rates have to be kept at a slow and veyr steady amount
05:04:56 <shachaf> I think people have been trying unsuccessfully to increase USD inflation.
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05:09:23 <zzo38> Why?
05:09:24 <quintopia> ais523: i made a Black gate that does a thing. maybe it will help.
05:09:49 <ais523> quintopia: the hard part is decrementing variables
05:09:55 <ais523> a variable needs to extend past the original area of the program
05:10:11 <ais523> which means that the turning apparatus you need to decrement it needs to be shoved further and further out over time
05:10:22 <ais523> the example program on the page is a proof that the decrement is possible
05:10:33 <ais523> so I felt reasonably confident at that point that it was TC
05:11:04 <quintopia> ais523: i'm just thinking about building logic gates and circuits and stuff.
05:11:28 <ais523> ah right, the control rather than the data
05:11:47 <ais523> I hadn't thought much about that
05:12:58 <izalove> stupid america and stupid month/day/year dates
05:13:44 <izalove> https://github.com/aappleby/smhasher last commit on jan 9 and the text says "update: 1/8/2016"
05:14:00 <izalove> total wtf for a couple of minutes
05:14:01 <\oren\> ugh
05:14:23 <\oren\> I prefer the japanese/chinese system where each number is labeled
05:14:45 <izalove> pretty much any other scheme is better
05:15:37 <\oren\> izalove: what about century/month/day/yearofcentury? 20/1/8/16
05:15:49 <izalove> you're the devil
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05:16:44 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: and then Japanese has an era. H28/8/16
05:17:02 <lifthrasiir> (probably will change soon)
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05:20:04 <\oren\> 3:40 hours till Assange will give his address
05:20:34 <izalove> it's 123 fake street
05:20:46 <lifthrasiir> nowhere, anywhere
05:21:13 <\oren\> I mean address as in a speech
05:21:24 <\oren\> for the 10th anniversary of wikileaks
05:28:45 <ais523> clearly dates should give the year number mod 3, 5, 7, 11, and 13
05:28:58 <ais523> that'll be unambiguous until the year 15016, at least if you know which field is which
05:30:17 <myname> we could easily do the same fir month and day
05:30:24 <myname> go fkr it
05:30:51 <myname> like a binary clock but with mod results instead of single led
05:31:45 <ais523> actually, remove 3 from the year
05:31:55 <ais523> use 5, 7, 11, 13 for the year, 3 and 4 for the month, 31 for the day
05:32:29 <myname> nah, the same for everything, otherwise it'd be way too easy
05:33:28 <myname> like, what fun is it to see 27th if you can have 2, 6, 5, 1
05:35:12 <myname> also, we could just use the discordian dates
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05:41:29 <ais523> myname: maybe the day uses 2 and 17?
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05:41:41 <ais523> or, hmm, perhaps duplicates are OK
05:41:47 <ais523> 2 and 4 is dubious enough as-is
05:42:22 <myname> using the same primes make a neat table
05:43:02 <myname> like, 5,7,11,13 as columns and year,month,day as rows
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05:45:33 <quintopia> til esoteric programming languages are "Langages de programmation exotiques" in French. exotic! now thats classy!
05:47:24 <ais523> ugh, I should really work out the details of the language I wanted to work out the details of
05:47:30 <ais523> is the calesyta esolang challenge still going?
05:47:42 <myname> maybe in france, esoteric isn't that esoteric
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05:48:36 <ais523> oh, November 15
05:48:37 <ais523> plenty of time
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05:55:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: There won't BE a world on november 15
05:55:55 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: is this related to the US elections?
05:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> Yes?
05:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, the president-elect isn't sworn in until January...
05:56:34 <ais523> oh
05:56:45 <ais523> so why do you think the world will end by november 15?
05:57:32 <izalove> trump should at least wait for the release of disney's moana
05:57:36 <izalove> before destroying the world
05:58:04 <izalove> blowing up the planet before that would be a dick move
05:58:34 <ais523> I'm at least mildly confident that if it came to a war between the US and the rest of the world, the rest of the world could deal with the problem without accidentally ending human civilisation in the process
05:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: After would be completely fair though; I mean, this is the planet that elected Trump
05:58:48 <ais523> he hasn't been elected yet
05:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: You haven't met the US
05:58:58 <ais523> and is currently projected to have around a 1 in 3 chance of winning
05:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> Well yeah
05:59:10 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I know enough about elections to know that they can be determined by completely random stuff
05:59:15 <ais523> so I'm worried
05:59:27 <ais523> but less worried than I could be
05:59:33 <ais523> do you have a vote in the US, and if so, in which state?
05:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, Hillary's not exactly preferable
05:59:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No; ineligible for the moment
05:59:56 <ais523> you can be preferable without actually being good
06:00:11 <hppavilion[1]> Well yeah
06:00:22 <ais523> I'd rather write an IRC client in INTERCAL than Malbolge, but neither is an appropriate choice
06:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think it boils down to being shot in the foot or shot in the head; neither is good, but one isn't going to kill you
06:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't think it'd be even possible to write it in malbolge; it doesn't do sockets iirc
06:01:14 <ais523> put it in a loop with netcat
06:01:16 <ais523> like thutubot does
06:01:23 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
06:01:53 <hppavilion[1]> REPLs are one thing, but RSERPLs are even better
06:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Read Send Eval Receive Print Loop- SSH, basically)
06:02:31 <izalove> eval before receive?
06:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: eval is done remotely
06:02:48 <ais523> that said, CLC-INTERCAL does have sockets
06:02:57 <izalove> and receive isn't?
06:03:04 <ais523> also the best IPv6 compatibility method I've ever seen
06:03:11 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: As in, data is sent to remote, evaluated there, and the response is sent back
06:03:20 <hppavilion[1]> And printed
06:03:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's not a very good name
06:03:36 <ais523> (you can look up an IPv6 IP as though it were a domain name, or an IPv6-only domain name, and you'll get a fake IPv4 address in response which then gets translated to and from the IPv6 address behind the scenes)
06:03:49 <izalove> shouldn't it be read send receive eval send receive print loop ?
06:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> I guess you could say RSRPL+RESL
06:04:01 <ais523> "receive eval send loop" is probably the best name for it
06:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: True
06:09:19 <zzo38> Does any program other than CLC-INTERCAL capable to do such a thing with IPv6 compatibility?
06:09:46 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know of one, although that doesn't mean that there isn't one I don't know about
06:10:37 <myname> i'd just say remote-repl
06:11:51 <izalove> but what does remote stand for
06:12:17 <myname> doesn't matter
06:12:42 <myname> "somewhere, maybe but not necessarily here"
06:13:10 <izalove> worst acronym ever
06:13:40 <myname> that's because it isn't one
06:13:48 <myname> also, INTERCAL is way worse
06:14:12 <ais523> is that even an acronym?
06:14:17 <hppavilion[1]> Sufficiently advanced friendship is indistinguishable from magic
06:14:20 <myname> it is
06:14:22 <ais523> it's pronounceable, which would tend to imply not
06:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> Also, any technology that is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
06:14:37 <myname> it stands for Programming Language With No Pronouncable Acronym
06:14:53 <ais523> I believe the only official statement along the lines is "INTERCAL is short for Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym"
06:15:03 <ais523> which implies that it's an abbreviation, but no necessarily an acronym
06:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> myname: PLWNPA? That's pronounceable.
06:15:17 <hppavilion[1]> But you have to treat w like old english
06:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> Where it can make 'oo'
06:15:31 <ais523> also, it's only dubiously a real word (which tends to imply that it isn't an acronym), and it isn't an initialism
06:15:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: intercal's not that old, i guess
06:15:46 <ais523> myname: 1972
06:16:17 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Would you be surprised if it wanted us to use old English?
06:16:19 <myname> see, not "old english" old
06:16:26 <myname> i would
06:16:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You clearly aren't in the INTERCALlian spirit then
06:16:55 <myname> intercal is more of a "look at what you can do" instead of a "look what we moved away from"
06:17:10 <myname> if it would be the later, it would still have goto
06:17:11 <ais523> INTERCAL is designed to do things differently from other languages, that is its only real guiding principle
06:17:26 <ais523> note that this allows doing things better in cases where most other languages mess them up
06:17:41 <ais523> however, normally all the best options are already taken, thus forcing INTERCAL to choose a worse one
06:20:44 <myname> if it doesn't have null pointers, it is still a better language than go
06:21:42 <ais523> you possibly don't want to know how INTERCAL's closest pointer equivalents work :-P
06:22:07 <ais523> although they have null pointers to the same extent that they have multivalued pointers
06:22:30 <ais523> and some pointer-like constructs have a pointer end up pointing to itself if you attempt to unset it
06:24:29 <zzo38> GOTO is still something that would help in some programming languages which don't have it; in some of these cases they eventually did add goto
06:24:35 <zzo38> But JavaScript still doesn't yet
06:25:03 <myname> i am not sure if goto would be any good in an event based language
06:26:24 <zzo38> What do you mean by "event based language" exactly?
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07:11:15 <izalove> idea
07:11:22 <izalove> for a hash function
07:11:29 <izalove> that can output any amount of bytes
07:11:37 <izalove> take a prng
07:11:57 <izalove> seed it with a fixed value
07:12:50 <izalove> then something like uint32_t hash = rng(); while (*data) hash ^= rng() * *data++;
07:13:11 <izalove> can be adapted to output a 64 bit hash by calling rng twice in the loop
07:13:24 <izalove> or 128 bit or 196 bit or 1024 bit
07:14:21 <izalove> is it stupid?
07:18:46 <izalove> any feedback would be appreciated.. <.<
07:18:46 <ais523> it's not too stupid but it's probably better to use a fixed sequence of values rather than random values
07:18:52 <ais523> otherwise you get silly behaviour when the RNG outputs 0, or a stream of the same value in a row, etc.
07:19:15 <ais523> many actual insecure hash functions use that sort of formula though
07:19:26 <izalove> it's not for crypto
07:19:51 <izalove> the rng is a way to generate a fixed sequence of decently distributed numbers
07:20:09 <ais523> indeed
07:20:27 <ais523> one well-known hash (ISBN check codes) uses the sequence 1, 2, 3, 4, … 10 for the purpose
07:20:39 <ais523> so I'm not sure that being decently distributed is required here :-D
07:20:47 <shachaf> ais523: I have a vote in California.
07:21:02 <izalove> ais523: can't hurt, no?
07:21:03 <shachaf> That's not very useful as far as influecing the national election.
07:21:12 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, that's one of the least valuable states to have a vote in, sadly
07:21:18 <ais523> at least it means you could safely screw around with it
07:21:29 <shachaf> That's true.
07:21:32 <shachaf> ais523 2016
07:21:33 <ais523> (also, influencing the popular vote might potentially help in the case of a close decision)
07:22:25 <ais523> there's at least one stupid scenario, with a fraction-of-a-percent chance, in which the house of representatives gets to pick between clinton, trump, and johnson
07:22:41 <ais523> and if clinton doesn't win the popular vote they'll almost certainly go for trump in that situation
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07:24:08 <izalove> 7000/1 is a fraction
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08:02:01 <izalove> with that hash function it's easy to generate a bloom filter
08:02:14 <izalove> just initialize with n different seeds
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08:29:00 <izalove> https://www.scribd.com/doc/18093757/Fuckin-Concrete-Contemporary-Abstract-Algebra-Introduction-by-Nicolas-Bourbaki-Junior
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11:41:19 <boily> `wisdom
11:41:25 <HackEgo> treant//Treants are genericized ents for intellectual property reasons.
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13:45:04 <moonythedwarf> moooo
13:50:34 <APic> Gesundheit
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15:20:31 <oerjan> @tell fizzie You know, maybe zemhill_____ should sometimes _subtract_ an underscore hth
15:20:31 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:33:52 <FreeFull> Subtraction is unsound
15:33:57 <FreeFull> Addition forever
15:34:08 <oerjan> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKAY
15:35:07 <FreeFull> negative numbers don't even real
15:36:13 <MDude> No zero either.
15:38:37 <oerjan> and these newfangled numbers larger than two are suspect as well.
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16:22:04 <FireFly> FreeFull: gotta stay positive, I like it
16:52:54 <Taneb> `quote different result
16:52:55 <HackEgo> 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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17:15:00 <moonythedwarf> mooo
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17:16:54 <moonythedwarf> wb `^_^v
17:16:56 * oerjan feels obligated to link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI
17:17:12 <moonythedwarf> lol
17:17:21 <oerjan> special for you
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17:50:25 <int-e> It's been a while... I wonder whether the original swf is still around.
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18:38:03 <`^_^v> thank you moonythedwarf. your kindness these past few days has warmed my heart
18:39:41 <quintopia> haven't heard that song in a while
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18:41:30 <quintopia> it bothers me that the song says "he" but the animation shows a "she"
18:46:06 <zzo38> `? mahjong
18:46:07 <HackEgo> mahjong? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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19:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be studying the "signs" of a set, which is a mathematical idea of mine (it could already exist, but I haven't heard of it) that ISN'T half-baked
19:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> It's essentially a way of generalizing positive and negative numbers
19:34:49 <hppavilion[1]> I'll explain if anyone is interested, once I write down an ACIIable version
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19:39:40 <quintopia> hey, it can't be less half-baked than the "signs" of M. Night Shyamalan
19:39:54 <quintopia> or is it 'more half-baked'?
19:40:03 <quintopia> 'less-than-half-baked'?
19:40:20 <quintopia> probably just 'less-baked'
19:42:57 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I'll have to check that
19:43:31 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Ah
19:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> I thought it was math xD
19:43:50 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Shall I explain them?
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19:48:09 <hppavilion[2]> Back
19:48:25 <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas?
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20:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> `wisdom
20:50:29 <HackEgo> banach-tarski//"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
20:58:42 <\oren\> `?
20:58:43 <HackEgo> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:58:49 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:58:50 <HackEgo> ​αλτγρ+γ//αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
20:59:05 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:07 <HackEgo> ruby//Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
20:59:17 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:18 <HackEgo> wth//WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
20:59:22 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:23 <HackEgo> ​@//@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
20:59:29 <hppavilion[1]> `? hth
20:59:29 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
20:59:33 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:35 <HackEgo> overworld//The overworld is an alternative name for the world map, used by players of the Zelda video games.
20:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> hth can also be 'hope that harmed' in some cases
20:59:44 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> `? hðh
20:59:45 <HackEgo> structural subtyping//Not to be confused with substructural typing.
20:59:46 <HackEgo> hðh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:59:52 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:53 <HackEgo> ipu//IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
20:59:59 <\oren\> `wisdom
21:00:00 <HackEgo> semmelweis//Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
21:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> `learn hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:01:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'hðh': hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:01:48 <hppavilion[1]> `? hðh
21:01:49 <HackEgo> hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:02:02 <hppavilion[1]> `? hppavilion[n]
21:02:02 <HackEgo> hppavilion[n]? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:02:06 <hppavilion[1]> `? hppavilion
21:02:07 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk
21:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> `learn hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. Not to be confused with hppavilion_n
21:02:49 <HackEgo> Relearned 'hppavilion': hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. Not to be confused with hppavilion_n
21:04:24 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/hðh
21:04:25 <HackEgo> No output.
21:05:30 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: :(
21:05:39 <shachaf> Pointing out that you're being annoying does not free you from any consequences of being annoying.
21:05:56 <myname> ++
21:05:56 <shachaf> If anything it does the opposite.
21:06:21 <hppavilion[1]> ...fair enough
21:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I felt it'd be useful though.
21:06:41 <hppavilion[1]> For people who get confused if I accidentally slip back into ERA
21:07:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I use ERA outside of #esoteric; I only avoid it here out of consideration for the request of those with bad Unicode handling in their clients)
21:07:08 <shachaf> No, you felt it'd be funny.
21:07:48 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...that too.
21:08:01 <hppavilion[1]> Everything I do is for humor
21:09:33 <\oren\> I wasn't expecting Semmelweis to be a real person
21:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Whom?
21:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, was it a user that recently joined and turned out to not be a bot?
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21:18:18 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: no
21:18:27 <\oren\> `wisdom semmelweis
21:18:28 <HackEgo> semmelweis//Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
21:18:38 <\oren\> that's actually true
21:19:05 <\oren\> the trick was disinfecting their hands before delivering babies
21:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
21:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> ...Oh, huh
21:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But why would doctors hate him? It's more chargeable if the mother lives because (a) nasty ethics like "don't make people pay you, at least as much, when you seriously failed" don't get in the way as often and (b) dead men need no doctors (except, y'know, coroners), so they won't be returning customers
21:23:15 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: they hated him for suggesting that a gentleman's hands could possibly carry disease
21:23:26 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
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21:24:28 <int-e> . o O ( They could carry the disease... of love! )
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21:56:30 <tswett> So people apparently sometimes say that Grover's algorithm can be used for "searching a database".
21:57:59 <tswett> Suppose I have a "quantum hard drive" that I can store qubits in, but when I'm pulling qubits out, I have to specify the index classically; I can't ask for a superposition of indices.
21:58:51 <tswett> Is there a way I can store a database on this quantum hard drive such that I can use Grover's algorithm to quickly search it?
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22:29:37 <int-e> tswett: I'm not an expert on this, but as I understand it, no; Wikipedia agrees: "Roughly speaking, if we have a function y = f(x) that can be evaluated on a quantum computer, Grover's algorithm allows us to calculate x when given y."
22:50:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49857&oldid=49855 * Iovoid * (+538) Add examples.
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23:01:45 <quintopia> hello
23:23:56 -!- boily has joined.
23:24:59 <boily> `wisdom
23:25:00 <HackEgo> ​#programming//No such channel. See `? #esoteric
23:26:15 <\oren\> `wisdon
23:26:15 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdon: not found
23:26:17 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:19 <HackEgo> oregon//Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left.
23:26:26 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:27 <HackEgo> codoctor//P⚭Q ∧ P ∈ 𝔻𝕣 → Q ∈ 𝔻𝕣*
23:26:47 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:49 <HackEgo> northumberland//Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
23:26:56 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:57 <HackEgo> heh//heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
23:27:04 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:05 <HackEgo> the universe//The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
23:27:12 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:13 <HackEgo> try//There is no try.
23:27:18 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:20 <HackEgo> finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
23:27:26 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:27 <HackEgo> dynamic-wind//dynamic-wind is the opposite of static-wind.
23:31:08 <boily> he\\oren\. please be advised that nothing can oppose oerjan hth
23:31:19 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:31:21 <HackEgo> joke//Jokes are no drug.
23:31:25 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:31:27 <HackEgo> fire//Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink.
23:33:04 <boily> `wisdom
23:33:05 <HackEgo> scotland//<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes
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23:35:27 <quintopia> coily
23:35:35 <quintopia> elloerjan
23:36:00 <oerjan> intopia
23:37:07 <boily> quinthellopia, hellørjan.
23:37:30 * boily opposes oerjan. FOR SCIENCE!
23:37:35 <oerjan> hoily. i have found the universe quite efficient at opposing me, actually.
23:37:44 * quintopia opposes boily
23:38:07 * oerjan refuses to oppose either, on principle
23:38:41 <quintopia> are you opposing opposition?
23:39:09 <oerjan> NEVER
23:39:20 <boily> OKAY
23:39:30 <quintopia> im not totally opposing boily, i just think he hasnt given vocaloid a completely fair shot.
23:39:38 * oerjan gets hit by the falling anvil. it's been a while...
23:41:04 <shachaf> oppose is when you reverse all the 2-cells in a pose?
23:41:39 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas? <-- . o O ( baguette derivatives )
23:41:58 <quintopia> no its when you give a pose the permission to kick people from the channel
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23:42:20 <quintopia> speak of the devil
23:42:25 <oerjan> speak o... oops
23:42:50 <oerjan> <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas? <-- . o O ( baguette derivatives )
23:43:11 <quintopia> tell us aboit set signs then hppavilion[1]
23:44:10 <oerjan> quintopia: itym posse hth
23:44:47 <quintopia> no that would be opposse
23:45:04 <oerjan> opossible
23:47:10 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: OK
23:47:11 * boily is confuzzled.
23:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> Signs are basically a way of generalizing positive and negative (and zero) numbers that I'm playing with
23:48:03 <shachaf> a heffalomp or wuzzle / is very confuzzle
23:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> You have a set S and a magnitude function (which is basically a more general absolute value) #x : S -> T that may or may not need to satisfy some properties that I haven't found to be needed yet
23:49:09 <boily> they come in ones and twoosels.
23:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Assume for now T is a subset of S. Other cases are possible, of course, but I'm ignoring those for now)
23:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> (#x must be defined for ALL elements of S)
23:51:38 <shachaf> a heffalomp or wuzzle's very sly
23:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> So for many definitions of #x, there will be several values x, y where x /= y, #x = #y (by the pigeonhole principle, definitely any where T has lesser cardinality (which is, by the way, a possible definition of #) than X)
23:51:58 <oerjan> `? hppavilion
23:51:59 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. A common alternative definition is the set of all items yielded by the general case of the generator. Not to be confused with hppavilion^k or hppavilion_m.
23:52:06 <oerjan> oh.
23:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> And sign basically is what makes those values different.
23:52:50 <quintopia> well...all of that seems rather obvious, but how is it useful?
23:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> Like, y'know, when your set is Z and magnitude is just normal absolute value, -1 /= 1 but |-1| = |1| = 1
23:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Yeah, that's what I'm looking for
23:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> This feels like one of those things that HAS to be useful (not random babbling), but I don't know of an exact application
23:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> (I think I might have had one in mind earlier, but I've forgotten it if so)
23:54:13 <shachaf> `? heffalump
23:54:14 <HackEgo> heffalump? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:54:29 <shachaf> what!
23:54:31 <shachaf> unacceptable
23:54:34 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: But the point is that sign can be something more than just + - 0; you can have arbitrarily many of them
23:54:58 <shachaf> You can even have a cosign for every sign.
23:55:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...yes, you could
23:55:17 <hppavilion[1]> Probably, let's be honest, that's going to come up eventually
23:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> (If you're doing complex numbers, you have uncountably many if you use normal absolute value for magnitude; the signs represent points on the unit circle)
23:56:51 <oerjan> `learn A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
23:56:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'heffalump': A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
23:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Oh, and even if you just use Q, you can find alternative similar interpretations to positive and negative that are very different.
23:57:21 <shachaf> oerjan: that wisdom entry is very confusil
23:57:35 <oerjan> shocking
23:57:54 <shachaf> `? woozle
23:57:55 <HackEgo> woozle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:58:00 <quintopia> a hefelump is a lump of sugar fermented with yeast
23:58:26 <oerjan> quintopia: is that a pun or just a mispling
23:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> Using mfloor(x) instead of abs(x), sign becomes any number n/m : m in N*, n in N, -1 ≤ n ≤ 1
23:59:23 <quintopia> oerjan: hefe as in hefeweizen
2016-10-05
00:00:40 <oerjan> okay
00:00:48 * oerjan hasn't heard that term before.
00:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> I really want a thing similar to saying positive/negative/zero, but multiplicative instead of additive; positive-analog is abs(x) > 1, negative-analog is abs(x) < 1, zero-analog is abs(x) = 1
00:02:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: are you sure you mean abs there
00:02:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes. abs as in absolute value.
00:02:46 <oerjan> oh.
00:03:26 <hppavilion[1]> (I could call them "superlative", "sublative", and "one", perhaps)
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00:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, the sign of n indicates whether lim(lambda x: n^x, omega) is 0, ±infinity, or... whatever it is when n = 1 or n = -1
00:05:27 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: how about contractile and dilatory and one
00:05:39 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Yes! Great!
00:05:52 <oerjan> s/ile/ive/
00:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> ...are those existing words or did you come up wiht that?
00:06:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: s/ory/ive/
00:06:24 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: maybe you should learn linear algebra by watching these videos: https://www.khanacademy.org/math/linear-algebra/eola-topic/eola/v/eola-preview
00:06:27 <shachaf> i heard they're good
00:06:28 <oerjan> i'm not sure of that.
00:06:31 <shachaf> you can confirm or deny it
00:06:48 <oerjan> (that was to hppavilion[1])
00:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ty
00:07:37 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh! I think I'm already subscribed to the guy who makes that series, and I've been meaning to watch them!
00:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Why not dilatve?
00:08:30 <oerjan> well maybe.
00:08:42 <oerjan> i just don't think dilatory is wrong.
00:08:47 <shachaf> You can watch them right now. They're only about an hour, and split into separate segments.
00:08:50 <shachaf> Very visual.
00:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> More consistent
00:09:00 <hppavilion[1]> Yep
00:09:01 <shachaf> (Maybe a little too visual.)
00:09:11 <quintopia> i was using words that have other meanings on purpose
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00:09:15 <shachaf> And maybe a little bit too matrix-focused. But I'm not sure about that.
00:09:41 <oerjan> hm neither is contractile, indeed.
00:09:41 <quintopia> dilatory means "delaying" contractile refers to muscle tissue
00:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Well, also dilation in the sense of what they do to make your eyes bigger
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00:53:41 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play Scowder & Web?
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01:22:42 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...the quote on video #3 is "Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself." -Morpheus
01:22:51 <hppavilion[1]> (about 4 millishachafs)
01:24:25 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, are shachafs an absolute measurement of pun (dimension P), or is it P/E (where E is the dimension of effort)?
01:25:12 <hppavilion[1]> Thus meaning even a REALLY funny joke gets a low score if it's two obvious, and something not very funny gets a high score if it takes some thinking to find it (but not to understand it)?
01:25:39 <hppavilion[1]> (I guess it'd be P/E^2 in that case, if we want to measure effort to make it vs. effort to get it)
01:27:57 <shachaf> My name is not a unit, please.
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01:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, right, s/shachafs/grumpychafs/
01:32:07 <shachaf> No word ending in chaf is a unit, please.
01:32:39 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh, right
01:32:55 <hppavilion[1]> Do "shagrumpies" trigger it?
01:35:22 <boily> the unit symbol is «Sh» hth.
01:37:05 <shachaf> How about: "grumps" or "groans"
01:37:12 <shachaf> Or oys.
01:37:28 <shachaf> As they say: The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
01:37:51 * boily experimentally thwacks shachaf. 0.63 groans.
01:37:58 <boily> that works.
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01:48:00 <oerjan> well i liked shachaf, but i guess this new unit may groan me.
01:49:59 * boily THWACKS oerjan. 0.94 groans.
01:50:57 <shachaf> a pun reaches 1.0 when it can make a groan man cry
01:51:20 <shachaf> (by the way i like the pun but i don't like the anti-crying masculinity scow)
01:51:23 <shachaf> (crying is great)
01:57:10 * boily thwackthwacks shachaf. 0.945 groans
01:58:23 <shachaf> `? boily
01:58:25 <HackEgo> ​"Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
01:58:48 <shachaf> `slwd boily//s/Man/Groan Man/
01:58:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/boily//"Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
02:00:43 <boily> I like the fact Trigotillectomic is a hapax googlegomenon that directly points to me :D
02:01:06 <shachaf> I never read that word.
02:01:26 <shachaf> It always looked too complicated so I pretended it was "Trigonometric" or something and skipped it.
02:01:41 <shachaf> `? weather
02:01:42 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
02:01:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 050000Z 00000KT 15SM SKC 15/10 A3031 RMK SLP268 \ ENVA 050050Z 11005KT CAVOK 03/01 Q1046 RMK WIND 670FT 14007KT \ ESSB 050050Z AUTO 35005KT 9999 NCD 04/02 Q1043 \ KOAK 050053Z 28011KT 10SM
02:01:45 <lambdabot> FEW020 20/11 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP150 T02000106
02:03:01 <boily> 15 is warm!
02:04:44 <shachaf> 20 is cold
02:05:42 <oerjan> brrr
02:08:22 <boily> there should be a spaceheater lobbing service. you enter your ICBM coordinates on their website, and they trebuchet you a warmed up heater.
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02:24:47 <boily> `wisdom
02:24:48 <HackEgo> endofunctor//Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
02:24:51 <boily> `wisdom
02:24:52 <HackEgo> loudly//Did you mean: loudly
02:24:53 <boily> `wisdom
02:24:55 <HackEgo> persistence//Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
02:24:55 <boily> `wisdom
02:24:57 <HackEgo> mroman//mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
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02:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> Idea to make a small amount of energy more impressive: Express it as a volume (in km^3 (or k(m^3) to make it even bigger)) of average space in the universe where, at the universe's average density, the mass in that space has E (by E = mc^2) equal to the energy
02:36:18 <shachaf> whoa, invented the identity function?
02:36:21 <shachaf> I use that one all the time.
02:37:06 <ais523> `` echo identity | cat | cat | cat | cat
02:37:07 <HackEgo> identity
02:37:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: what IS a hash worse than the identity function
02:37:56 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: \x.0
02:37:58 <shachaf> i,i putting the cat before the hose
02:38:16 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: ...fair enough?
02:38:25 <ais523> the identity function is actually a pretty good hash if your input is restricted enough
02:38:38 <ais523> Java probably uses the identity function as Integer#hashCode, for example
02:38:39 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: And if people shouldn't be able to derive the input from the hash
02:38:49 <ais523> that's a cryptohash, different field
02:39:02 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Same idea, different subfield
02:39:29 <ais523> perhaps
02:39:32 * hppavilion[1] suspects the proper mathematical answer to "what's a worse hash" requires that you formally define badness...
02:39:48 <ais523> but speed hashes and cryptohashes are normally very different in design and the considerations for them are pretty much completely different
02:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, I decided on a better notation for "is a divisor of" today
02:40:18 <ais523> the only middle ground I can think of is speed hashes that use a randomized algorithm to stop people intentionally colliding them to trigger algorithmic worst cases
02:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> Created by analogy that the subset symbol is like less-than-or-equal-to, strict subset like less-than, superset is like greater-than-or-equal-to, and strict superset is like greater-than
02:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> Divisor is like 'element of'. I guess.
02:41:48 <hppavilion[1]> Like a < with a stroke from the initial to the midpoint of the endpoints
02:43:20 <ais523>
02:43:31 <ais523> `unidecode ⪪
02:43:32 <HackEgo> ​[U+2AAA SMALLER THAN]
02:44:08 <shachaf> `icode ⪬
02:44:08 <HackEgo> ​[U+2AAC SMALLER THAN OR EQUAL TO]
02:44:27 <shachaf>
02:44:38 <ais523> shachaf: how does `icode differ from `unidecode?
02:44:45 <shachaf> They are the same.
02:44:56 <ais523> fair enough
02:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Levenshtein 4
02:45:01 <shachaf> The joke is unicode -> icode
02:45:07 <ais523> oh, I see
02:45:08 <hppavilion[1]> Granted, the only real appeals are completing the symbolic analogy, freeing up | for logical things (when you should already be using ∨ for OR and ⊼ for NAND), and being mirrorable
02:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> `unicode [U+2AAC SMALLER THAN OR EQUAL TO]
02:45:46 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: &#0; \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal: &#1; \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal: &#2; \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
02:45:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...you lied to me
02:46:03 <ais523> `unicode U+2AAC
02:46:03 <HackEgo> ​⪬
02:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> (clearly, unicode = icode^-1)
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02:49:26 <hppavilion[1]> Matrices annoy me just a tiny bit because of their limit to 2D
02:49:56 <shachaf> Matrices are linear maps between vector spaces of any dimension.
02:50:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, that's how I'm learning it
02:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I mean how they're WRITTEN in 2D
02:50:17 <shachaf> This is like saying that functions annoy you because there's only a domain and codomain.
02:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, but...
02:50:26 <shachaf> If you want multi-argument functions, they are available.
02:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> *fine*
02:50:40 <hppavilion[1]> (Though technically, it's LITERALLY saying that)
02:50:41 <shachaf> And so are multi-argument linear maps.
02:50:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yay?
02:50:59 <shachaf> Tensors might be what you want.
02:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, that too
02:51:04 <shachaf> Or they might not, who knows.
02:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> I tried learning that once
02:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> You can do a matrix fairly tolerably in 4D by treating it as a matrix where the individual values are themselves matrices
02:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> And I think all the math works
02:51:22 <shachaf> But a bilinear function : UxV -> W is the same as a linear function : U⊗V -> W
02:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> (And you can multiply them by normal matrices and call it scalars!)
02:51:46 <shachaf> A linear map : U -> V is also the same as an element of the vector space U*⊗V
02:52:26 <shachaf> (dim (U⊗V) = dim U * dim V)
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03:23:29 <hppavilion[1]> Since there's matrix multiplication, there must be division; but it isn't commutative, so... Oh my god. Are there TWO division operations for matrices? A/B = C : BC = A and A\B = C : CB = A?
03:23:40 <shachaf> No.
03:24:09 <shachaf> Neither the first nor the last statement is trur.
03:24:12 <shachaf> true
03:24:14 <shachaf> `? trurl
03:24:15 <HackEgo> trurl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:24:19 <shachaf> hm
03:24:49 <oerjan> well the last is true.
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03:25:46 <oerjan> although hm
03:25:54 <shachaf> Is it?
03:26:02 <shachaf> I don't think matrices are even a quasigroup.
03:26:12 <oerjan> if B isn't invertible, then division might not be uniquely defined.
03:26:20 <shachaf> Right.
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03:27:13 <oerjan> basically because you can add any C' such that BC' = 0 (or vice versa)
03:27:37 <oerjan> and of course it might not exist to begin with.
03:28:05 <oerjan> but _if_ B is invertible, there may be two division operations.
03:29:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: summary: division need not exist, it need not be unique when it exists, but if it exists and is unique, you might still have two operations like you say.
03:31:05 <shachaf> But it'll probably be clearer to write BA^-1 or A^-1B?
03:33:02 <oerjan> well you could still have division without having an inverse, sometimes.
03:37:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, hi
03:37:40 <hppavilion[1]> I forgot about that message
03:38:17 <oerjan> drive-by messaging
03:38:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well I was bound to come back at /some/ point and read it
03:39:14 <hppavilion[1]> (Full disclosure: I was already aware that you can have two different division operations; I found that out when reading through the Octave docs when I tried to learn Octave. But I'm confident I would've said the same thing if I didn't already know and had managed to brain-stumble into division)
03:39:45 <oerjan> fiendish
03:41:41 <\oren\> ARGH
03:42:06 * oerjan injects \oren\ with morphine
03:42:53 <shachaf> that's even morphinedish
03:43:19 * hppavilion[1] tries to stop oerjan, but is too late; that was hyper-concentrated #esoteric-grade morphine for use on Venezuelans and those who dare challenge fungot, and the amount administered would be a lethal dose to a horse
03:43:20 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i agree with sukoshi. why i use directed quotes in underload
03:43:21 <oerjan> well he seemed pain, so i wanted to help him feel morphine
03:43:30 <oerjan> *in pain
03:44:00 <\oren\> 何で「鉛筆」は鉛で書いた?
03:44:09 <oerjan> fungot: can you please teach hppavilion[1] to babble more coherently
03:44:09 <fungot> oerjan: mainly because i don't use the plural of " anecdote" is not fundamentally better than computers solving impossible problems, religious people should not comment on mathematical issues
03:44:33 <shachaf> Cale: whoa whoa whoa, vivid drone change
03:44:54 <ais523> huh, it's me who used directed quotes in underload, that must be what fungot was referring too
03:44:54 <fungot> ais523: well then i guess it's not a macro. if you
03:45:52 <\oren\> they must have known demn well that a pencil doesn't have any lead metal in it
03:45:55 <shachaf> ais523: That quote was certainly directed at you.
03:46:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But my coherence mathematically approaches 0 as time goes to 0. I can't resist it.
03:46:08 <ais523> *referring to
03:46:16 <\oren\> but they still wrote "pencil" with the kanji for the metal lead!
03:46:54 <hppavilion[1]> Now for a question of genuine interest to me, mostly because of some cryptographic applications: There are k! ways to arrange a list L of k distinct items. Which is which? That is, find a way to bijectively map numbers from 1 to k! to rearrangements of the list
03:47:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: Fisher shuffle
03:47:55 <ais523> is the usual way to biject that
03:48:05 <oerjan> \oren\: en:pencil = no:blyant, en:lead = no:bly hth
03:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Biggest interest: Giving every monoalphabetic english cypher a unique name from 1 to 403291461126605635584000000)
03:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: ty
03:48:14 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I was about to explain that, then I remembered there's a name for it. "fisher shuffle"
03:48:21 <ais523> basically, you divide the number by k, the remainder gives the new position of the first list elemetn
03:48:39 <\oren\> oerjan: ARGH
03:48:40 <ais523> then you divide the result of the division by k-1, the remainder gives the new position of the second list element within the remaining slots
03:48:41 <ais523> and so on
03:48:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...Huh, that works
03:48:52 <Cale> shachaf: Yeah, it's like a completely different unit
03:48:57 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: There's no natural isomorphism between permutations and total orders on a set.
03:49:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well yes, what I'm going for is one that doesn't require you to just write every single one down
03:49:26 <ais523> shachaf: this doesn't need naturality, though, just a bijection
03:49:26 <shachaf> Probably this number thing is along the same lines.
03:49:35 <shachaf> Yes.
03:49:53 <ais523> obviously there are 2**k! bijections, but the Fisher shuffle one is the one that everyone uses in practice
03:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> And it even satisfies the thing I was hoping for where the original is shuffle #0! Yay!
03:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> (well, #1, but I shifted everything off by 1 to make things start at 0- as it should be)
03:52:36 <oerjan> \oren\: also de:Bleistift vs. Blei
03:53:04 <oerjan> \oren\: conclusion, at some time in history pencils _did_ use lead, and some languages named them based on that
03:54:42 <shachaf> I think I have some graphite in my skin from a pencil many years ago.
03:56:14 <oerjan> \oren\: oh, if i'm reading german wikipedia correctly, it was a misunderstanding, people confused graphite with galena
03:58:26 <oerjan> ais523: itym (k!)! hth
03:59:03 <ais523> oerjan: oh, yes
03:59:03 <ais523> k!!
03:59:04 <ais523> wow that's a big number
03:59:10 <ais523> (assuming k is not trivially small)
04:04:24 <oerjan> \oren\: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil#Discovery_of_graphite_deposit
04:06:21 <oerjan> (fascinating section)
04:10:02 <izalove> let's assume a world where you can't hardlink directories and bind mounts don't exist etc
04:10:25 <izalove> how costly would it be to save in each directory the total size in bytes of all the files in its subtree?
04:16:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, (k!)!
04:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> Not k!!
04:16:26 <alercah> what's the difference?
04:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: k!! is the product of all numbers in 1..k that have the same parity (even or odd) as k
04:17:16 <alercah> I've never heard of that but ok
04:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> Because Merserve had to ruin notation for everyone with a stupid ambiguous- scratch that, unambiguous and with obvious meaning that isn't what he used- notation
04:20:12 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, seriously, if you wanted that, at least have the decency to make it general; like, x!,n is the product of all integers k : 0 < k <= x where k%n = 0
04:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> (!, being crappy shorthand for the exclamation pause)
04:25:42 <hppavilion[1]> That way k!! can be superfactorial :P
04:26:11 <shachaf> fun fact 0 = 1
04:27:00 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I'd go with superfactorial being written n!_k (or, well, general superfactorial; normal factorial is when k=1, superfactorial is k=2, and general case is k=whatever)
04:29:55 <hppavilion[1]> Definition: n!_0 = n, 0!_k = 1, n!_k = (n!_(k-1)) * ((n-1)!_k)!_(k-1)
04:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Obviously, now we have a 0^0 problem again with 0!_0, which looks like an emoticon)
04:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> `? emoji
04:30:36 <HackEgo> emoji? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:30:41 <hppavilion[1]> `? emojus
04:30:42 <HackEgo> emojus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:35:59 <jeffl35> `? python
04:35:59 <HackEgo> python? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:36:05 <jeffl35> `? lol
04:36:06 <HackEgo> lol? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:36:11 <jeffl35> `? ego
04:36:11 <HackEgo> ego? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:36:16 <jeffl35> `? esoteric
04:36:17 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
04:36:27 <jeffl35> `? nothing
04:36:28 <HackEgo> Nothing would have been better than to create this wisdom entry.
04:40:07 <hppavilion[1]> `? #esoteric
04:40:08 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
04:44:49 <ais523> do we have entries about any other channels?
04:44:53 <ais523> `? #haskell
04:44:54 <HackEgo> ​#haskell? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:45:11 <ais523> I'd expect the entry to say that they didn't exist, and then go into details about what they were like
04:45:13 <ais523> `? ##nomic
04:45:13 <HackEgo> ​##nomic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:45:23 <ais523> `` ls "wisdom/#*"
04:45:24 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/#*: No such file or directory
04:45:40 <ais523> `` ls "wisdom/#"*
04:45:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric \ wisdom/#esoteric-blah \ wisdom/#programming
04:45:44 <ais523> aha
04:45:47 <ais523> `? #programming
04:45:48 <HackEgo> No such channel. See `? #esoteric
04:46:02 <ais523> `? #esoteric-blah
04:46:03 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric-blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah!
04:55:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:55:57 <shachaf> copumpkin: yopumpkin
04:56:08 <copumpkin> hi!
04:56:54 <shachaf> how's life
04:57:18 <shachaf> Someone was complaining about how you can't define a category of Agda functions easily because function equality isn't extensional.
04:57:33 <shachaf> And then we looked at your categories thing but it turned out to be parameterized on an equivalence relation too.
04:58:33 <shachaf> `learn ##ais523 is the channel for all things ais523
04:59:10 <ais523> does that channel even exist? :-P
04:59:18 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It does now, apparently
04:59:24 <hppavilion[1]> It's just shachaf though
04:59:25 <ais523> it has two #s so it's not up to me to influence it
05:02:08 <shachaf> You're at least as entitled as anyone else is.
05:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> entitlement(u('ais523'), chan('##ais523')) ≥ 1/occ(chan('##ais523'))
05:03:38 <hppavilion[1]> s,occ,#occ,
05:04:20 <ais523> hmm, if #occ means "number of occurrences", does "##ais523" mean "number of numbers of ais523s"?
05:04:44 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, but not when in quotes
05:04:49 <hppavilion[1]> When in quotes it's just a name
05:05:16 <shachaf> What's the value of ##ais523?
05:05:26 <shachaf> Is it equal to #ais523 or is it 1 or something else?
05:05:44 <ais523> if #ais523 is uniquely defined, then ##ais523 is 1
05:05:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Also, occ : Chan -> {User} means occupants, and # is magnitude (which is cardinality for sets but is absolute value for numbers)
05:06:07 <ais523> oh
05:06:16 <ais523> so I guess ##ais523 is the absolute value of my height
05:06:32 <hppavilion[1]> So #occ(chan('##ais523')) reads "number of people currently in channel '##ais523'"
05:06:42 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Is your height negative?
05:06:58 <ais523> positive numbers have absolute values too
05:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, but could ANYBODY's height be negative?
05:07:25 <hppavilion[1]> EVER?
05:07:45 <shachaf> Of course.
05:07:51 <ais523> if you define height as y coordinate of head minus y coordinate of feet while standing upright
05:07:57 <ais523> I guess it's theoretically possible but unlikely
05:07:59 <hppavilion[1]> (Hint: No, height is in |R^+, and that's before you account for the Planck length)
05:08:06 <shachaf> No, height is oriented.
05:08:11 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: 'upright' must be defined
05:08:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm treating "standing upright" as a phrase
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05:09:05 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose clowns have negative height if we allow handwalking to count as standing upright...
05:09:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What I was going for was confirming that Australians don't have negative height
05:10:27 <ais523> why assume that it's Australians who are upside-down, rather than everyone else?
05:10:42 <imode> occam's aussie.
05:10:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Convention.
05:10:58 <shachaf> Australians are obviously not upside down.
05:11:04 <shachaf> They're facing away from the center of the planet.
05:11:05 <hppavilion[1]> (also: Africa)
05:11:11 <shachaf> Er, head-pointing away.
05:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Right, it's more diagonal I guess...
05:11:35 <imode> I know, at this very moment, that there may be an australian that's locally upside-down.
05:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> imode: Thank you for smartassing it for me :D
05:12:14 <imode> hppavilion[1]: always a pleasure. :)
05:12:17 <shachaf> `relcome imode
05:12:18 <HackEgo> imode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:12:33 <imode> oh, I'm very well aware of esolangs. :P
05:13:13 <imode> nice bot though. dig the colors.
05:14:07 <ais523> getting further back on topic, I decided to work on this language that I've been thinking about for a while for the CALESYTA contest
05:14:27 <ais523> for a while, I thought it was sub-TC in a particularly interesting way
05:14:37 <ais523> then I realised it's probably actually TC in an even more interesting way
05:14:48 <imode> what's the model?
05:14:53 <ais523> tarpit
05:15:10 <ais523> data's stored in stacks of bits
05:15:25 <ais523> I probably shouldn't say too much, though, not sure if the contest allows spoilers
05:15:58 <ais523> (for anyone who's interested in esolangs and missed the announcement: http://calesyta.xyz/en/)
05:16:32 <imode> now that's interesting.
05:16:55 <ais523> I'm hoping that the contest is a success, it's rare that people other than us create one
05:17:55 <imode> just means that esolangs are growing more numerous and popular!
05:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> ...huh. I always assumed the Criterion of Embarrassment was made up by Zach Weiner for a joke.
05:18:35 <hppavilion[1]> It sounded like a joke.
05:20:13 <shachaf> Cale: Do you know some good vector spaces without a natural basis?
05:24:32 <oerjan> shachaf: R over Q hth
05:26:40 <shachaf> finite-dimensional twh
05:26:51 <shachaf> Of coure it's easy to come up with infinite-dimensional ones.
05:26:56 <oerjan> fin-dish
05:27:04 <shachaf> but i should've specified it tdh
05:27:43 <oerjan> shachaf: the pointed euclidean plane hth
05:28:04 * oerjan whistles innocently
05:30:36 <imode> gotta wonder if any esolangs have been created as productivity enhancers. sort of like shorthand programming. stack machines are good for that sort of thing.
05:31:15 <imode> a small virtual machine I can use with one hand tied behind my back.
05:34:06 <\oren\> I made one that is sort of like a shorthand C
05:34:25 <\oren\> but it didn't end up being very good
05:35:54 <oerjan> iirc mroman created burlesque in that way.
05:36:31 <oerjan> yep, today's girl genius is definitely weird, soldier
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05:54:27 <quintopia> i wonder what "argentinian features" are
06:02:00 <hppavilion[1]> OH MY GOD
06:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> "DONALD" translates, approximately, to "world ruler"
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06:14:22 <shachaf> i always knew there was something fishy about that duck
06:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> I think my mother might be a little drunk...
06:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Too many ties to Walt Street? He's literally the nephew of Scrooge McDuck, it turns out...
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06:52:53 <myname> i really like the album with music inspired by the life and times of scrooge
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06:59:20 <izalove> i set english as the main language everywhere
06:59:30 <izalove> but i do often search italian things
06:59:39 <izalove> for some reason google seems to think that i'm spanish
06:59:54 <izalove> not sure why
06:59:57 <izalove> i don't even speak spanish
07:00:17 <izalove> i mean i know why, it's because italian and spanish are similar enough to confuse it
07:00:29 <izalove> but still, i'm disappointed
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07:24:40 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: except that scrooge McDuck earned his money in the gold rush, not on wallstreet
07:25:18 <myname> "it turns out"
07:25:45 <myname> also, there is a german magazine called donaldist, being an acronym
07:26:10 <myname> with sruff like scientific papers around the donald universe
07:27:37 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: notice the spelling of 'Walt'
07:31:15 <hppavilion[1]> What's it called when you have two functions f, g where f(x)*g(x) = x? (distinctly NOT inverse; reciprocal, maybe, but it's really more general than just reciprocals, because sgn and abs satisfy this)
07:35:06 <shachaf> Reciprocal would be (f*g)(x) = 1
07:35:19 <shachaf> I'd just say their (point-wise) product is the identity function.
07:36:26 <shachaf> > map (abs * signum) [-5..5]
07:36:28 <lambdabot> error:
07:36:28 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘b0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M756589516162...
07:36:28 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show b0)’ from being solved.
07:36:41 <shachaf> @let import Data.NumInstances
07:36:44 <lambdabot> Defined.
07:36:45 <shachaf> > map (abs * signum) [-5..5] :: [Integer]
07:36:47 <lambdabot> [-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4,5]
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07:48:03 <shachaf> Although it's also the case that id * signum = abs
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08:05:44 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, if you use integers and define magnitude as 2rtz(x/2) in my system, you deal with parity :)
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09:00:31 <myname> also, abs is the integral of sgn
09:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...so it is.
09:05:05 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Wait, no it isn't
09:05:34 <myname> why not?
09:05:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because- at least according to Wikipedia- the area below the x-axis subtracts from the total of the integral
09:06:17 * hppavilion[1] might be missing something
09:06:26 <myname> oh, yeah
09:06:40 <myname> more area than integral, indeed
09:07:34 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an operation for absolute integral?
09:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, you could do \integral{a}{b}{|f(x)|dx} probably, but do you really want to?)
09:09:48 <shachaf> ?
09:10:06 <shachaf> Why isn't abs the integral of signum?
09:10:36 <shachaf> "the area below the x-axis subtracts from the total of the integral", and indeed abs is decreasing to the left of 0
09:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, but you would get negative values
09:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm pretty sure)
09:12:24 <shachaf> ?
09:12:33 <shachaf> Integrating from where?
09:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: OK, just to check, we're looking at the area under sgn(x) from 0 to x, right?
09:13:15 <shachaf> Yes.
09:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> (or, well, the area between the x-axis and sgn(x))
09:13:36 <shachaf> Of course when you're going from 0 to a negative number that reverses the sign
09:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
09:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> So the area is negative, because values below the x-axis subtract from the total (whereas values above add)
09:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> Like, sgn(x) for negative x = -1
09:16:41 <hppavilion[1]> And I think I was going somewhere with an example, but I've forgotten it
09:17:33 <shachaf> -(-x) = x hth
09:17:45 <hppavilion[1]> Yes...
09:18:19 <hppavilion[1]> But we aren't judging from which side of the y-axis; only the x-axis
09:19:10 <shachaf> I think you misunderstood.
09:19:27 <shachaf> ∫_a^b ... = -∫_b^a ... hth
09:19:51 <shachaf> Also you should read about how this integration thing works.
09:19:54 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh?
09:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> I am reading about it
09:20:03 <shachaf> Fair enough.
09:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and derivative of abs is OBVIOUSLY sgn... of course...
09:22:23 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( note to self: integrate floor(x) )
09:23:37 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You were right the first time
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09:52:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Function call without parameters * New user account
10:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49858&oldid=49854 * Function call without parameters * (+240)
10:07:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49859 * Function call without parameters * (+601) Created page
10:11:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49860&oldid=49859 * Function call without parameters * (+248)
10:12:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49861&oldid=49860 * Function call without parameters * (+16)
10:13:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49862&oldid=49861 * Function call without parameters * (+74)
10:16:47 <myname> interesting name
10:21:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49863&oldid=49862 * Function call without parameters * (+286)
10:32:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49864&oldid=49863 * Function call without parameters * (+584)
10:37:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49865&oldid=49864 * Function call without parameters * (+264)
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11:46:16 <boily> `wisdom
11:46:17 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh//See yeeeeeeeeesh.
11:49:06 <boily> `` ls wisdom/ye*
11:49:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeesh \ wisdom/yeti
11:49:24 <boily> `? yeeesh
11:49:25 <HackEgo> See yeesh.
11:49:41 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/yeeesh
11:49:43 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse tswett
11:50:03 <myname> `? yeesh
11:50:04 <HackEgo> yeesh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:50:12 <boily> @tell tswett tswellott. there ain't a two "e" yeeesh. please correct.
11:50:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:50:12 <myname> :(
11:50:23 <boily> mynamello. 'tis sad :/
12:17:31 <boily> `wisdom
12:17:32 <HackEgo> zork//Zork is like York, except for the first letter. Uaneb invented it.
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12:41:00 <izalove> `? uaneb
12:41:01 <HackEgo> uaneb? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:41:05 <izalove> disappointed
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13:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: they hated him for suggesting that a gentleman's hands could possibly carry disease
13:46:25 <Phantom_Hoover> well they hated him for going on a one-man crusade to overturn the entire theory of disease at the time
13:46:59 <Taneb> I think overall I am glad he did that
13:47:04 <Taneb> (who are we talking about)
13:53:51 <Jafet> `? tanea
13:53:51 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
14:06:13 <tswett> int-e: I don't see how that thing from Wikipedia rules out being able to search a quantum hard drive.
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