←2016-10 2016-11 2016-12→ ↑2016 ↑all
2016-11-01
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00:43:07 <moonheart08> you thought i died?
00:43:14 <moonheart08> nope. i havent even got the disk to boot right >_>
00:44:07 * moonheart08 is messing with the partitions
00:45:01 <oerjan> @messages-
00:45:01 <lambdabot> boily said 13h 57m 33s ago: hellørjan. you really did special case sed -i. bleh! flblblblblbl! :Þ
00:45:29 <oerjan> @tell boily would i lie to you? unless it somehow involved a horrible pun, that is.
00:45:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:48:45 <int-e> shachaf: wow, I believe the karma/more interaction was lost in March 2012
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00:55:22 <oerjan> int-e: now i'm wondering how much of the geisterdamen language is nonsense and how much the foglios have actually assigned meaning to... in any case, clearly Eotain now considers this Personal.
00:56:53 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
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00:57:16 <ais523> that was, somehow, a consequence of letting an extra finger brush on my touchpad
00:57:20 <ais523> Konversation is weird
00:57:53 <oerjan> the keys are like right next to each other
00:58:59 <\oren\> I gave each kid about 500 grams of candy
00:59:06 <int-e> oerjan: believe it or not, I have not gotten around to GG yet
00:59:13 <oerjan> int-e: shocking
00:59:23 <int-e> I had important game to play ;)
00:59:41 <int-e> and now I'm looking at this stupid bot
00:59:57 <oerjan> meanwhile, i haven't got any further than GG. somehow after not getting more than 6-7 hours of sleep for several days, today my body wanted 13.
01:01:52 <oerjan> int-e: i considered making it @quit yesterday instead, but i was too curious how long it would take...
01:02:44 <int-e> 3 hours... but apparently it discards messages to channels that it has left
01:03:12 <oerjan> int-e: well it seemed to get through them slowly nevertheless.
01:03:48 <ais523> int-e: it was sending despite not being in the channel
01:03:56 <ais523> I did a mode -n for a few seconds to check
01:04:03 <oerjan> oh right it did
01:04:13 <int-e> oh.
01:04:30 <oerjan> bug upon bug
01:06:18 <oerjan> int-e: otoh the last time i got many @tells at once, i was positively surprised that it _didn't_ drop any (although maybe asking for them in public was a bad move), if that's related it would be nice to keep.
01:06:57 <int-e> no, that's unrelated
01:07:21 <oerjan> because i remember it used to do so.
01:10:29 <int-e> oerjan: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commit/d695bbf4b2d805d508107f23dbeb4382f07f9b5a ... you've been very quick to notice ;)
01:11:04 <int-e> anyway I really suspect the karma thing has been broken for several years... but it's hard to be certain.
01:11:34 <oerjan> depends when someone last tried that command... i remember it being used before...
01:11:41 <int-e> (too many indirections in the code for effective archaeology)
01:11:49 <oerjan> and it would be strange if no one did for 4 years.
01:12:30 <oerjan> int-e: is it possible that it always bypassed @more, but that there used to be a _different_ cutoff mechanism that caught it?
01:13:03 <oerjan> i.e. i think you reorganized that sort of stuff at one point
01:13:32 <shachaf> int-e: No, I linked to some logs that had @more for @karma-all in Dec 2012
01:13:54 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-12-29#191333oerjan
01:14:11 <oerjan> (that's why i'm asking about the @tells ... if that was the sort of thing that happened, they could have been changed by the same thing.)
01:14:56 <oerjan> but i guess your github link makes that unlikely.
01:15:30 <oerjan> shachaf: 2012 _was_ several years ago hth
01:15:42 <oerjan> has really no one used the command in between?
01:15:51 <shachaf> int-e: see also http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-04-14
01:16:51 <oerjan> int-e: oh, note http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-12-29#191156lambdabot , that eventually timed out too
01:16:55 <shachaf> Hmm, but see #haskell on 2013-07-11
01:16:56 <shachaf> Timeout.
01:17:09 <oerjan> shachaf: LINK
01:17:24 <shachaf> oerjan: tunes.org took down the old logs htdnh
01:17:39 <oerjan> i think they're archived somewhere?
01:17:47 <shachaf> You can download http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/haskell-13.zip if you really want to.
01:18:05 <shachaf> Oh, I bet ircbrowse.net has them.
01:18:20 <shachaf> http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=16059990&timestamp=1373543230#t1373543230 hth
01:19:00 <oerjan> yay
01:19:32 <oerjan> so the command amassed two separate flaws
01:19:57 <shachaf> I kind of want to exploit this bug while it's still around.
01:20:04 <shachaf> But the only way to do it is to annoy people.
01:20:08 <shachaf> So I guess I won't.
01:20:32 <oerjan> indeed. i noticed it also slows down lambdabot at large
01:20:49 <oerjan> so maybe we should have @quit it
01:20:52 <shachaf> slambdabot
01:21:00 <shachaf> int-e: Does lambdabot auto-restart on @quit?
01:21:12 <shachaf> Also you should add me to the admin list.
01:22:18 <oerjan> shachaf: it does unless you do it twice in quick succession
01:23:08 <oerjan> not entirely sure how quick
01:30:15 <int-e> 5 minutes, apparently
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01:41:38 <FreeFull> Quick, is the syntax for Unefunge the same as for Befunge?
01:42:00 <alercah> yes
01:43:06 <oerjan> there may be a certain lack of ^ and v
01:43:16 * oerjan doesn't actually know
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01:44:03 <int-e> @karma-all
01:44:08 <lambdabot> blah 31337
01:44:14 <lambdabot> egrep 31337
01:44:24 <lambdabot> nobody 2000
01:44:30 <lambdabot> C/C 1712
01:44:36 <lambdabot> [5855 @more lines]
01:44:38 <shachaf> what happened to zgrep
01:45:00 <oerjan> `which zgrep
01:45:07 <HackEgo> ​/bin/zgrep
01:45:13 <oerjan> shachaf: still there hth
01:45:18 <int-e> good question... some sort of internal timeout? I don't know, and it's really too late to figure that out.
01:45:24 <int-e> @karma zgrep
01:45:28 <lambdabot> zgrep has a karma of 31337
01:45:42 <oerjan> fancy
01:46:19 <shachaf> @karma-all
01:46:20 <lambdabot> blah 31337
01:46:20 <lambdabot> egrep 31337
01:46:20 <lambdabot> zgrep 31337
01:46:20 <lambdabot> nobody 2000
01:46:20 <lambdabot> C/C 1712
01:46:22 <lambdabot> [5855 @more lines]
01:46:30 <int-e> hmm, no timeout logged though
01:46:37 <int-e> err, oops
01:46:40 <shachaf> Interesting that it still generated the line, which is why @more cut it off after 4 lines.
01:46:43 <int-e> there it is: [ERROR] : Main: caught (and ignoring) <<timeout>>
01:46:46 <shachaf> I was wondering about that.
01:48:16 <int-e> but anyway... this fix should hold for now
01:48:18 <oerjan> does @tell ignore timeouts too?
01:48:30 <oerjan> because it did take some time i recall
01:48:36 <oerjan> and longer than that
01:48:44 <oerjan> in which case it might have the same problem
01:49:10 <oerjan> er @messages etc, i guess
01:52:36 <int-e> no, @messages is different, I believe
01:52:49 <int-e> but I really can't think straight anymore, need sleep, see yoyu
01:52:55 <oerjan> good night
01:52:58 <quintopia> that hello world in seed is pretty fun
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02:38:18 <zzo38> Target player sacrifices a nontoken nonland permanent of your choice. Choose a nonland permanent card from the sacrificed permanent's owner's graveyard and put that card onto the battlefield under the control of the sacrificed permanent's controller.
02:38:57 <zzo38> Do you like this?
02:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, the set of all sets that do not contain themselves is just the set of all sets
02:39:16 <hppavilion[1]> Because no sets contain themselves :P
02:39:22 <quintopia> uh
02:39:34 <quintopia> under what axioms?
02:39:37 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think in some theories sets can contain themself
02:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Shhhh
02:40:07 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Various axioms, most importantly the "sets never contain themselves" axiom?
02:40:17 <quintopia> boring
02:40:19 <hppavilion[1]> S \union {S} = S, I guess?
02:40:19 <shachaf> is that an attempt at humour
02:40:26 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not even an attempt
02:40:31 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Just sadness
02:41:01 <hppavilion[1]> It's an attempt at humor like being bald is a hair color, like abstinence is a sex act, etc.
02:41:16 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Did he-who-shall-be-named invent abstinence? )
02:42:27 <zzo38> It has been said that like atheist to be religion is like being bald is hair color.
02:42:54 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, that's where I got those
02:43:15 <hppavilion[1]> It's weird to me that people reject blackboard bold as distinct from bold, and advise that normal bold be used in typeset works
02:43:55 <zzo38> Blackboard bold is more distinct anyways isn't it?
02:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> It seems like it'd be better to use BB exclusively, because it's more visually distinct from normal letters than CB (which is just "the same letter, but thicker")
02:44:03 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, exactly
02:44:45 <zzo38> But it depend what is being written, what kind of format is appropriate for it.
02:45:52 <hppavilion[1]> At the very least, BB should be used for |Reals, |Naturals, |Zintegers, and |Qationals because that's what we all recognize
02:46:13 <shachaf> fraktur 4 ever
02:46:14 <hppavilion[1]> And maybe also |Complexes and |Primes
02:46:25 <zzo38> In those cases yes you should use the blackboard bold
02:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Fraktur is nice too, to indicate separate things
02:46:48 <shachaf> 𝕭𝖑𝖆𝖍𝖇𝖔𝖗𝖊𝖉 𝕭𝖔𝖑𝖉
02:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Isn't that more like Anciente ſcriptur Boulde?
02:47:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I think of BB as indicating certain "ubersets"- the big, important ones; like reals, naturals, integers, and primes
02:48:00 <zzo38> The standard Computer Modern fonts do not have blackboard bold, but does include calligraphic letters
02:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> So they should *definitely* be used for those, and for non-universal things they should be limited to the VERY important sets
02:48:17 <zzo38> So, you can add extra fonts if you want blackboard bold or fraktur fonts
02:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Though, for the set of boolean values I like to write a T+F amalgamation :D
02:48:54 <hppavilion[1]> ("set of boolean values")
02:49:31 <hppavilion[1]> There should also be a standard symbol for irrational numbers, IMO
02:49:44 <shachaf> subobject classifers are no joke, yo
02:50:10 <hppavilion[1]> I've seen J| used, by analogy that Q is 10 from the end of the English alphabet and J is 10 after the beginning, and |Q and J| are disjoint
02:50:44 <zzo38> How are you going to write a T+F amalgamation; you can add it into a font by use of METAFONT if you like to do so, though.
02:51:05 <shachaf> R\Q is fine
02:51:19 <shachaf> fairbairn threshold, yo
02:51:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ??
02:52:04 <shachaf> @google fairbairn threshold
02:52:05 <lambdabot> https://www.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2012-February/017548.html
02:52:07 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Are you asking what a T+F amalgamation looks like or how I plan to put it in a computer?
02:52:23 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Both
02:52:23 <shachaf> google.com is one of the ""hidden gems"" of the internet
02:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It looks like a T with a shorter tick on the left coming from the middle, like in the letter "F" (but with the other side of the "hat")
02:53:26 <zzo38> But, by use of METAFONT you can make fonts out of whatever shapes you want.
02:53:32 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I didn't know whether it was a real thing, or even a pun
02:53:33 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Ah, OK
02:54:16 <alercah> what's a good name for a data structure which encodes proofs of correctness?
02:54:23 <alercah> like a map that does this is a ? map
02:54:51 <shachaf> elaborate twh
02:55:05 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: I do not understand. Is it like a... yeah, no idea
02:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to say "Bloom filter", but that's not what you're asking
02:55:37 <alercah> so like, a normal map provides you with guarantees like "if you insert (k, v), then (k, v) is in the map"
02:55:55 <alercah> I'm writing an interface for maps that provide proofs of such properties in Idris
02:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: You might like something like "JuryMap" ("jury" because it's proven correct)
02:56:15 <alercah> hah
02:56:39 <hppavilion[1]> "Jury" could be replaced with "Judge" depending on whether this is Japan
02:56:54 <hppavilion[1]> (In Japan, cases are decided by the judge; no jury is present. Like fascists.)
02:57:56 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Not a joke though. That's actually pretty good; you'd have to leave a comment to say what it does, obviously, but after that people will immediately make the connection and it will be easy to remember
02:58:47 <ais523> alercah: "certified" is the usual adjective, I believe
02:58:52 <alercah> ais523: thank you
02:59:05 <ais523> i.e. a certified compiler is a compiler that's been proven to implement the language it claims to implement
02:59:21 <ais523> s/i\.e\./e.g./
02:59:28 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Japan recently added a system of lay judges...
02:59:44 <alercah> some European nations have judge-alone trials, no?
02:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Oh? Haven't heard about that
02:59:48 <ais523> (need the backslashes, otherwise if the s/// is interpreted as global we'd have a compe.g.)
02:59:54 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: They're like fascists too
03:00:13 <ais523> alercah: the UK does if the stakes are sufficiently low
03:00:16 <pikhq> For severe crimes *now* in Japan, you are tried before 6 members of the lay population and 3 professional judges.
03:00:18 <alercah> ais523: here too
03:00:27 <alercah> ais523: but I think the entire system in e.g. Italy is judge-alone
03:00:30 <alercah> since it's not adversarial
03:00:37 <pikhq> To be found guilty you need to be found guilty by a majority of the judges.
03:00:52 <pikhq> (also, Japan does not have an adversarial court system)
03:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Ah, yes, of course judge-only is OK for REALLY minor things (e.g. parking tickets)
03:01:11 <ais523> I think the reason behind adversarial is that it's hard to trust people to present the case in an unbiased way, so you ask two people to present it with opposite biases
03:01:28 <pikhq> That's the idea.
03:01:35 <alercah> uh
03:01:41 <alercah> I accidentally opened the clock in tmux
03:01:45 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, but then the moment there's a third way of looking at it...
03:01:49 <alercah> how do I quit it?
03:01:58 <shachaf> "I'll be judge, I'll be jury," Said cunning old Fury: "I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death."
03:02:08 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: here the right to a jury trial applies only when the maximum punishment is above 2 years
03:02:31 <alercah> shachaf: is Fury a church?
03:02:40 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, exactly
03:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: No, he's Samuel L. Jackson hth
03:02:54 <shachaf> alercah: Apparently Fury is a pooch.
03:02:57 <shachaf> I didn't know that.
03:12:15 <zzo38> Is this good: Zeux Agem's Evil Clone {BGR} Legendary Creature - Bat Wizard (1/1) ;; Flying, Protection from legendary, Bands with other legendary creatures ;; {6}, {T}: Destroy target permanent. ;; [["You eat with your left hand!" - Zeux Agem to his evil clone]]
03:12:35 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode λ
03:12:36 <HackEgo> ​[U+03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA]
03:12:46 <hppavilion[1]> duhn... Duhn... DUHHHHN
03:16:12 <zzo38> ?
03:16:19 <ais523> zzo38: I'm trying to work it out
03:16:37 <ais523> my guess is that the lack of haste makes it nonviable in most formats
03:16:47 <ais523> as it can't do anything the turn you play it, and has no protection against removal
03:17:15 <ais523> also you need to play it alongside large legendary creatures, or have 6+ mana, to have any real benefit
03:17:25 <zzo38> You are correct about those things at least
03:17:30 <shachaf> that card is mega xuez
03:17:33 <ais523> that said, the tap ability is very powerful if the game goes long
03:17:49 <ais523> and it stays in play somehow
03:17:58 <ais523> I just can't figure out what sort of decks you'd be able to pull that off /against/
03:18:18 <ais523> aggro decks will win first, and most other decks will have a bunch of spot removal or counterspells
03:18:34 <ais523> (combo decks will win first, have spot removal, /and/ have counterspells)
03:18:40 <zzo38> I can change it of course if needed
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03:18:47 <ais523> (and don't care much about having their permanents destroyed or being attacked by a 1/1)
03:19:32 <ais523> like, banding doesn't help much against a combo deck because they don't like to block anyway
03:19:35 <zzo38> Zeux Agem has the same converted mana cost (but different colors; should it be the same?), supertype, type, subtype, and converted mana cost as this card.
03:20:55 <ais523> well, Evil Twin is UB colours
03:21:01 <ais523> `card-by-name Evil Twin
03:21:02 <HackEgo> Evil Twin \ 2UB \ Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 0/0 \ You may have Evil Twin enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield except it gains "{U}{B}, {T}: Destroy target creature with the same name as this creature." \ ISD-R
03:21:42 <zzo38> Ah. OK
03:22:15 <ais523> I think banding is probably out of colour, it's nearly always white
03:22:27 <zzo38> Yes, that I believe
03:22:43 <ais523> protection from legendary is blue under what the color pie rules are stated as (however, that rule was never actually used, because Wizards stopped using protection before they ever created such a card)
03:23:00 <ais523> flying is normally blue but can also be white or black (or on very large creatures, red)
03:23:08 <zzo38> Maybe it should be the same {1WU} as the original I don't know?
03:23:09 <ais523> destroying a permanent is BG or BW
03:23:32 <ais523> although it's sometimes seen on colourless cards at a very high cost
03:28:11 <zzo38> Is 6 enough?
03:28:54 <ais523> yes, but I've only seen that when the card itself is also colourless
03:29:04 <ais523> not sure if you can do that on a coloured card or not
03:30:16 <shachaf> Are there British MTG cards that spell "color" with a u?
03:30:29 <ais523> no
03:31:00 <zzo38> I don't really care about that, because I am not WotC. But changes could still be made to what I wrote if it would help to improve it, anyways.
03:31:45 <zzo38> So, your ideas can help anyways.
03:33:20 <zzo38> What is an operation supposed to be called if f(x);f(y) and f(x+y) are going to be the same operation?
03:33:31 <shachaf> What is ;?
03:33:37 <shachaf> flip (.)?
03:33:46 <shachaf> No, that doesn't make sense.
03:33:52 <ais523> sequential composition, I guess?
03:33:53 <zzo38> No, it is like in C
03:33:56 <ais523> right
03:34:15 <zzo38> It is an impure operation
03:34:25 <ais523> zzo38: in this case, the argument to f is a repeat count, I think? I don't think it can be anything else
03:34:38 <shachaf> Well, you can make it pure by adding a state argument.
03:34:48 <shachaf> f(x, f(y, s)) = f(x+y, s)
03:34:53 <shachaf> So f is a monoid action or something.
03:34:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, you can have that
03:34:57 <ais523> right, because following these defintiions, f(3) = f(1); f(1); f(1)
03:36:16 <zzo38> ais523: But depending on the operation it might not require natural numbers; they may work with any nonnegative real numbers, with any real numbers, or with any complex numbers, even. And they might do more than just to increment a counter.
03:36:53 <zzo38> (For example, if f is a function that is supposed to be called to specify that a given amount of time has passed; the amount of time might not necessarily be an integer.)
03:37:01 <shachaf> Can f be self-modifying?
03:37:12 <shachaf> I guess that doesn't matter, given that it modifies arbitrary state anyway.
03:38:01 <oerjan> . o O ( is there a UB card that makes demons fly out of your nose? )
03:38:31 <zzo38> Probably not; are you going to make a UB card with demons in your nose?
03:38:50 <zzo38> I like that idea I can add that to uncards.txt
03:40:23 <oerjan> yay
03:42:00 <oerjan> gah did i accidentally press end in the log window - now where was i...
03:42:37 <zzo38> Demons In Your Nose {UB} Instant ;; If there are any Demons in your nose, you may cast them. Each of those spells gains flying.
03:46:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50069&oldid=50066 * Oerjan * (+52) Order, I said! Or was that another page...
03:46:11 <oerjan> apparently i was editing.
03:46:53 <ais523> it's disappointing seeing so many people failing to follow the instructions
03:47:03 <ais523> but we have to draw the line between humans and spambots somewhere
03:50:14 <hppavilion[1]> I now have a 4-letter word generator
03:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Sometimes, a human is- for the purposes of the internet- basically a spambot
03:51:37 <ais523> zzo38: I think the correct template is "Each of those cards gains flying as you cast it"
03:51:59 <ais523> not 100% sure, though, you might need to say "spells" rather than "cards"
03:53:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50070&oldid=50069 * Oerjan * (+6) This obviously needs bolding too
03:54:13 <hppavilion[1]> I have generated a list of every English 4-letter word of the form CVCC, CCVC, CVVC, CVCV, VCVC, or VCCV
03:54:33 <oerjan> someone just failed 5 times in a row at that particular point
03:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> Now to choose new curse words
03:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> And add some inflection & honorifics
03:56:03 <oerjan> ais523: eventually the whole instruction will be bold, and we can cycle back hth
03:56:26 <ais523> I was wondering about that
03:56:45 <ais523> actually I fear for the future of the Internet at the point when bots become better at CAPTCHAs than humans do
03:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: That's already happened, iirc
03:57:34 <ais523> actually, I had a vision of a company that you can pay money for accounts on, then use those accounts to sign into other services, and it's up to you whether you connect them or not
03:57:55 <ais523> the payment of money is used in lieu of a captcha, if someone's found to be spamming through an account than it can be cancelled
03:58:06 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'm pretty sure we have those, and they don't require money- oh, the money, I see
03:58:11 <ais523> many large websites (e.g. google, yahoo) are using cellphone numbers for the same purpose
03:58:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's when they become better than humans at following instructions we've got problems
03:58:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: They already are hth
03:58:26 <ais523> computers are already better than humans at following instructions
03:58:30 <oerjan> (clearly they already beat _some_ humans)
03:58:33 <hppavilion[1]> That's what computers do
03:58:35 <ais523> however, humans are better than computers at /understanding/ instructions
03:58:42 <oerjan> OKAY
03:58:50 <ais523> following them, however, is the entire purpose of a computer
03:58:56 <ais523> computers can't /not/ follow instructions, it's what they're for
03:59:06 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, exactly. Computers are the best instruction-followers, humans are the best at figuring out what the instructions *are* (and in some cases, giving them to the computer)
03:59:21 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: The cell phones are annoying for me, because I don't have a cell phone
03:59:23 <ais523> (and the normal way to attack/exclude a computer is to find a loophole in the instructions it was given)
03:59:27 <shachaf> Computers can not follow instructions, for example with hardware errors.
03:59:42 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I don't have a cellphone but my router does
03:59:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The difference in english (at least logically) between "can not" and "cannot" has always bugged me
03:59:56 <shachaf> Is there an esoteric language based on hardware errors?
04:00:05 <ais523> I don't think so
04:00:06 <shachaf> I know about https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/memerr.pdf , which is pretty neat.
04:00:09 <ais523> you should call it rowhammer
04:00:15 <ais523> after the exploit
04:00:16 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like we should have "cant" as one word, rather than "can't" contracting "cannot"
04:00:32 <zzo38> I think it is a different word
04:00:34 <ais523> "cant"'s already a word, but it means something else and is pronounced differently
04:00:56 <shachaf> They write a JVM program that gets compiled into code which is very likely to violate the sandbox constraints if a single bit is flipped.
04:01:13 <shachaf> Then they heat up the computer (which is supposed to be a secure computer of some sort) until a bit is flipped.
04:01:21 <shachaf> Or something like that, I don't remembe the details.
04:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So any bit, not just one particular bit?
04:03:39 <ais523> they're aiming for one particular bit, I think
04:06:06 <oerjan> iirc it's one particular bit in an object, but they have _many_ of those objects.
04:06:19 <oerjan> to increase the probability.
04:07:39 <oerjan> making those bits as large a fraction of memory as possible.
04:08:27 <oerjan> also when i read about it it may only have worked at memories without error correction?
04:08:32 <oerjan> *with
04:08:44 <oerjan> *s/at/with/
04:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah
04:10:43 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to jeff-the-killer.
04:11:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But that leads to an issue where, assuming the rest of the object code is more than a bit long, it's much more likely for an important bit to be flipped than that important one, is it not?
04:11:34 <oerjan> oh we do have a halloween topic
04:11:38 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it COULD be an error, especially on something Googly
04:11:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes. You're welcome.
04:12:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it is likely to just crash, indeed. i don't remember how clever they were about reducing that.
04:13:35 <oerjan> it may be that they actually could flip nearly any bit in that object. not sure.
04:13:53 <pikhq> shachaf: This sounds like a much less practical version of Rowhammer.
04:14:00 <oerjan> or wait
04:14:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's probably that it just only needs to work once, and you run it on a million servers so that loln makes one work and then you win
04:14:58 * oerjan should look at that pdf instead of guessing
04:16:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hm the intro says the exploit has about 70% chance of working
04:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ¡Lies!
04:16:51 <oerjan> i mean the abstract
04:16:55 <shachaf> pikhq: Well, it's older.
04:17:50 <pikhq> Sure, and probably also a bit less hardware-specific.
04:18:24 <pikhq> Something tells me that sort of bit flipping trick more has to do with the properties of DRAM in general.
04:23:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's in fact any bit of most of the objects, see page 2. the object fields are nearly all pointers, and as long as the changed pointer is anywhere within nearly any of them, they can exploit it.
04:24:42 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... S is a set where |ℕ| < |S| < |ℝ|. Provide either (a) an example of S or (b) a proof that S is impossible
04:24:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wow.
04:24:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ooooh, I see why
04:25:29 <oerjan> `unidecode ℕℝ
04:25:30 <HackEgo> ​[U+2115 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL N] [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R]
04:25:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Naturals and Reals; I couldn't do the standard |N and |R in this context because it wouldn't parse right
04:26:07 <hppavilion[1]> (either for a computer OR a human reader)
04:26:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis hth
04:26:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, rihgt
04:26:32 <shachaf> you could just write N and R like everyone else instead of trying to show off hth
04:26:45 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I wasn't trying to show off
04:26:52 <shachaf> am i being too nasty
04:26:54 <ais523> shachaf: I tried to use Unicode for labels in my CALESYTA language
04:26:55 <shachaf> probably
04:26:59 -!- shachaf has left.
04:27:02 <ais523> the interp handles it fine, unfortunately the editor doesn't
04:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: double-struck N and R is nailed into my mind; using normal N and R just looks wrong, like they shouldn't be representing something so important
04:27:44 <pikhq> I think most of us read TeX here.
04:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Ah, yes, that works too
04:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Huh, I seem to have remembered that being that cardc = Aleph_1, which is COMPLETELY different
04:28:38 <hppavilion[1]> (...they're equivalent in some bizarre way, aren't they?)
04:28:54 <pikhq> What. N and similar set symbols aren't in normal TeX.
04:29:06 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yeah, because Knuth is a dick
04:29:09 <pikhq> amsfonts fixes it, at least.
04:29:20 <pikhq> $\mathbb{N}$
04:29:25 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yes, but only for N, Z, R, and maybe Q iirc
04:29:26 <pikhq> (gag)
04:29:40 <pikhq> PWNZIQRC.
04:29:51 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I forget, what's W?
04:29:52 <ais523> $\left\|\mathbb{N}\right\|$
04:30:34 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I usually just type \bb{string} to indicate what it is without actually making a whole system
04:30:35 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Uh, $\mathbb{N}_{>0}$
04:30:58 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: ...really? we use- oh, right, "whole"
04:31:03 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: aleph-1 = 2 to the power of the number of integers, by definition; it's also very easy to prove it's equal to the number of reals
04:31:18 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: "But N doesn't contain 0 anyway" :P
04:31:40 <ais523> (err, this is to what extent "=" is defined on infinities)
04:31:47 <hppavilion[1]> (it does. I was trying to explain countable vs. uncountable infinity to an 11 year old earlier today, and that came up. Somehow)
04:32:30 <hppavilion[1]> Really, I feel like blackboard bold shouldn't be in unicode, it should just be a font (within a typeface)
04:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> So I can have a blackboard bold ſ (long s) or ð (eth) or @ (at sign) >:D.
04:34:32 <oerjan> ais523: you recall incorrectly, what you are describing is beth-1.
04:34:50 <oerjan> (or possibly you read from a wrong source, i believe those exist)
04:34:57 <ais523> oerjan: I thought that beth-1 was the second-smallest infinity
04:35:04 <oerjan> no. the other way around.
04:35:07 <ais523> it is possible that I was taught backwards
04:35:08 <pikhq> Apparently the rationale was to permit maintaining symbol distinctions in mathematic notation in plain text.
04:35:42 <pikhq> i.e. it was viewed that the symbol variants here were *semantic*, not just style variants.
04:36:01 <pikhq> So we've got the opposite of CJK unification because of the same rules.
04:36:05 <oerjan> ais523: well after that thing i read in the logs it's good to get out of my "don't be stupid, ais523 is always right" vibe ;)
04:37:26 <ais523> yes, being educated when I'm wrong is helpful
04:38:27 <oerjan> hm although i'm wondering if they're still equivalent with AoC. it might be that there could be no cardinality strictly between |N| and |R|, without the latter being aleph-1 because R isn't well-orderable.
04:38:52 <ais523> Wikipedia says that many textbooks assume the continuum hypothesis
04:38:55 <oerjan> (aleph-1 is the second-smallest infinite _well-orderable_ cardinal, by definition)
04:39:10 <ais523> in which case aleph-1 and beth-1 are interchangeable; that'd explain the amount of misinformation going around
04:39:43 <oerjan> some might even assume the generalized CH, in which case all alephs are beths
04:41:17 <ais523> > cos 208341
04:41:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, if you have AoC, then every infinite cardinality is an aleph, and alephs are always well ordered so aleph-1 is the next after aleph-0=|N|
04:41:20 <lambdabot> -0.9999999999670789
04:41:20 <lambdabot>
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04:42:15 <oerjan> and therefore there is nothing between aleph-0 and aleph-1, but something between aleph-0 and anything larger than aleph-1.
04:42:32 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I've also considered writing |N as NN or \NN, |R as RR or \RR, etc.
04:43:05 <hppavilion[1]> Also interesting, apparently 2^|N has the same cardinality as |R, so there's a weird bijection here somewhere that I must find
04:43:16 <ais523> oerjan: does the axiom of choice imply that infinities are well-ordered? I'm guessing not
04:43:40 <ais523> hmm, it wouldn't surprise me if there were at least countably infinitely many well-ordered infinities before they started becoming badly odered
04:43:43 <ais523> *ordered
04:48:06 <oerjan> <ais523> > cos 208341 <-- * briefly wonders if that's somehow a clue to ais523's hello world program
04:48:16 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: If you have too many well-ordered infinities in one place, it starts to smell bad hth
04:48:19 <ais523> nah, I was reading random PPCG pages again
04:48:44 <ais523> it was intended for a programming language in which "cos" was implemented as a single byte
04:49:00 <ais523> the point being that deleting any byte makes the output longer than "-1"
04:49:18 <oerjan> ais523: yes it does imply that. AoC ~ "every set can be well ordered".
04:49:48 <ais523> oerjan: oh, I didn't just mean the ability to put them in an order
04:49:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hint: binary expansions
04:49:58 <ais523> I mean the ability to compare them too, i.e. put them in /sorted/ order
04:50:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I had a feeling that was going to be related
04:50:20 <ais523> infinities strike me as the sort of things that are sometimes incomparable
04:50:25 <oerjan> ais523: the class of well-orderings is well ordered. you don't even need AoC for that.
04:51:05 <oerjan> s/well-orderings/ordinals/
04:51:26 <ais523> ah right
04:51:33 <ais523> I guess I should have guessed that
04:52:46 <ais523> I actually haven't been working on my hello world
04:53:02 <ais523> because of wanting to clear my mind for an upcoming NetHack tournament
04:53:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you can easily get _injections_ between |R and 2^|N, both ways, just by looking at binary expansion. a bijection requires some more care, or you can use the sledgehammer of the schröder-bernstein theorem.
04:53:27 <ais523> my current thinking is that I might not be able to get the apparently simpler O(n²) version to work, so I'm going to have to go for the more complex O(n log n) version
04:54:06 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, theorems
04:54:40 <ais523> incidentally, in machine code, hello world is O(n log n) because the longer your string gets, the larger the word size of the system has to be in order to allow for all the addresses in the string
04:54:50 <ais523> meaning that you need to give a longer address to the function that does the printing
04:54:50 <hppavilion[1]> The other day, I decided to prove change-of-base in my precalc class. My teacher had apparently never proven it (or possibly even seen a proof) herself. I was sad.
04:55:11 <ais523> (independently of that, it's O(n log n) if you're storing the length of the string rather than using a null terminator)
04:55:19 <ais523> wait, no
04:55:22 <ais523> it's O(n + log n)
04:55:30 <ais523> unless you're using a loop
04:55:36 <ais523> thus just O(n)
04:55:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my favourite proof that I worked out myself in a maths lesson
04:56:17 <oerjan> ais523: btw AoC is also equivalent to "all cardinalities are comparable", this follows easily from the fact that for any set, there exists an ordinal not smaller than it.
04:56:33 <ais523> was the proof that sum(1..n)² = sum(1³...n³)
04:56:57 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I was not aware that was a thing. Oh my god please tell me it's a thing and that you didn't just mess something up
04:57:04 <ais523> I found a proof that not only proves that that's true, but explains why
04:57:20 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Wait, don't all proofs do that?
04:57:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the proof of the schröder-bernstein theorem is actually quite pretty and not that hard hth
04:57:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: nah, often the result comes out but you don't quite understand how you got there
04:57:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: imagine a times table, like a primary school times table; the value in cell (x,y) is x×y
04:58:10 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Of course...
04:58:29 <ais523> if we assume the thing is square (they usually are), the sum of all the elements in the table is sum(1…n)²
04:58:44 <ais523> because you get the times table if you multiply the sum out
04:58:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, yes
04:59:13 <ais523> now consider the l-shaped rows you get if you read along the kth row and kth column until they intersect
04:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Writing sum(1..n) got boring at some point, so now I usually write "the sum of all integers between a and b (inclusive)" as a(+ with umlaut)b)
04:59:29 <ais523> e.g. with k=3, we have 1×3, 2×3, 3×3, 3×2, 3×1
04:59:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: OK...
04:59:59 <ais523> every element of the table belongs to one of those L shapes
05:00:11 <ais523> (you take the maximum of the coordinates, that's the shape it belongs to)
05:00:22 <ais523> we can rearrange this as 3×(1+2+3+2+1)
05:00:49 <ais523> and likewise, in general, the sum of the kth L shape is k×(sum(1..k..1))
05:01:15 <ais523> then if you imagine a k by k square, and pick a particular direction of diagonal
05:01:26 <ais523> then the diagonals have lengths 1 up to k then back down to 1, and each element's on exactly one diagonal
05:01:44 <ais523> thus sum(1..k..1) is k², and k×(sum(1..k..1)) is thus k³
05:02:04 <ais523> like it? :-D
05:02:20 <hppavilion[1]> ...Yes? I'll have to reread a few times xD
05:02:40 <ais523> (I'm aware other people have proved this too, but I came up with this proof by myself and think it's really pretty; I'm not sure what proofs other people used)
05:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I prefer to do all my proofs in über-dense notation with minimal use of language, with the idea being that as long as you understand the more basic parts of notation, you understand the math
05:07:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Which is why I'm annoyed when there are phrases with no symbolic equivalent)
05:10:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think your proof aesthetic is rather the opposite of most :P
05:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: yes xD
05:11:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If a computer couldn't read and verify it given adequate description of its form (which should be, at its basis, as simple as possible), it doesn't count
05:12:03 <oerjan> ais523: i vaguely recall there's an even more geometric proof of that...
05:12:27 <ais523> would be great if it involved volume somehow but I don't immediately see how it can
05:12:39 <ais523> the number of dimensions doesn't add up
05:12:47 <oerjan> it might be 4-dimensional.
05:13:31 <oerjan> build a four-dimensional pyramid with cube layers
05:13:46 <oerjan> and then there might be another way to slice it
05:15:02 <ais523> you know how you can form a rectangle from two lines at right angles to each other?
05:15:20 <oerjan> um sort of?
05:15:23 <ais523> you should be able to form a 4-dimensional hypersolid from two two-dimensional shapes at right angles to each other
05:15:35 <ais523> make those both triangles, and I think you have your proof?
05:15:37 <oerjan> yes. that's what i was thinking of, in fact.
05:15:39 <ais523> but it's hard to visualise
05:15:48 <ais523> because it has more dimensions than people are used to working with
05:16:09 <oerjan> however, you can write it as a set of 4-tuples
05:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, the jokes SMBC makes in this stretch about physicists where small values can be ignored are kind of flawed
05:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> He should really be going for... that one equation
05:16:44 <oerjan> {(x,y,z,w) | x<=y, w<=z, 1 <= x,y,w,z <= n}
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05:17:00 <oerjan> something like that
05:17:14 <hppavilion[1]> What was it, (exp . abs . log)? Yeah, that looks right
05:17:51 * oerjan tends to read SMBC in large batches
05:17:56 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Same here
05:17:57 <oerjan> it's the only comic i do that with
05:18:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: "this stretch" happened 3 years ago, so...
05:18:26 <oerjan> oh.
05:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, this one came out 2 days before my birthday
05:18:31 <oerjan> well not that large :P
05:18:45 <oerjan> it may be a month since last time, perhaps even less.
05:18:54 <oerjan> also i haven't read it all from the start.
05:18:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's only negligible if its shaval (occasionally EML) is close to 1
05:19:11 <oerjan> which may also be unusual for me and webcomics
05:19:16 <hppavilion[1]> (well, depending on where it's used...)
05:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> Multiplicatively, shaval is used for smallness; additively, you just use |x|
05:20:09 <oerjan> did i say w<=z i meant z<=w. not that it really matters.
05:20:24 <oerjan> now to find the cubes in that.
05:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, a better equation here would be \x -> (sgn x) * (exp . abs . log . abs) x, so negative values are defined
05:21:52 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not sure how you can even distinguish the z coordinate from the w coordinate, given that a) I don't think 4D space has defined axes yet and b) even if it did, nothing specified what orientation the hyperpyramid had
05:22:56 <oerjan> ais523: well you usually choose some order :P
05:23:05 <oerjan> it's isomorphic any way
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05:39:31 <oerjan> hm
05:39:42 <oerjan> `slwd testing//testing etc.
05:39:43 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sed: can't find label for jump to `esting'
05:39:50 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1ctesting etc.
05:39:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/testing//testing etc.
05:39:57 <oerjan> ic
05:40:04 <oerjan> `cat bin/slwd
05:40:04 <HackEgo> sled "wisdom/$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
05:40:51 <oerjan> `mkx bin/slwd//cd wisdom; sled "$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
05:40:52 <HackEgo> bin/slwd
05:41:11 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1ctesting again
05:41:13 <HackEgo> testing//testing again
05:41:22 <oerjan> `? testing
05:41:23 <HackEgo> testing again
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05:41:43 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, what's the (A(A)) in panel 3 of http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-01-01 ?
05:41:44 -!- augur has joined.
05:42:04 <oerjan> hm i guess it actually did that before. well, looks nicer.
05:42:12 <oerjan> or wait
05:53:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:01:10 <hppavilion[1]> The votey in http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-03-11 is just e=0
06:02:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> it'll be ok <-- huh, i didn't see that before my recent change, but that fixes it.
06:05:39 <oerjan> `cat bin/now
06:05:39 <HackEgo> lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; cat "$f"; done
06:05:51 <oerjan> `cat bin/lastfiles
06:05:51 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files}\n" -- "$@"
06:06:18 <oerjan> `` mk 'test1//hi'; mk 'test2//ho'
06:06:21 <HackEgo> test1 \ test2
06:06:23 <oerjan> `lastfiles
06:06:24 <HackEgo> test1 test2
06:11:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:12:35 <oerjan> `` hg log ----removed -l 1 --template "{join(files),"//"}"
06:12:36 <HackEgo> hg log: option ----removed not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options: \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies
06:12:46 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files),"//"}"
06:12:47 <HackEgo> hg: parse error at 13: syntax error
06:12:54 <oerjan> oh
06:13:04 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template '{join(files),"//"}'
06:13:05 <HackEgo> hg: parse error: unknown method 'list'
06:13:23 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template '{join(files,"//")}'
06:13:24 <HackEgo> ​** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:14:58 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files,'//')}"
06:15:00 <HackEgo> ​** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:15:07 <oerjan> *sigh*
06:15:11 <oerjan> `lastfiles
06:15:12 <HackEgo> test1 test2
06:15:25 <oerjan> i guess HackEgo's hg is too old :/
06:16:20 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files}"
06:16:20 <HackEgo> test1 test2
06:17:37 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|addbreaks}"
06:17:38 <HackEgo> ​** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:18:04 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|count}"
06:18:05 <HackEgo> hg: parse error: unknown function 'count'
06:18:21 <oerjan> huh that's weird
06:18:52 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}"
06:18:53 <HackEgo> ​** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:19:09 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" | paste
06:19:13 <HackEgo> ​** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:19:40 <oerjan> `` mk 'test1//ho'; mk 'test2//hi'
06:19:43 <HackEgo> test1 \ test2
06:19:46 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" &| paste
06:19:47 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `|' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" &| paste'
06:20:19 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" 2>&1 | paste
06:20:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.26792
06:22:14 <oerjan> `` mk 'test1//hi'; mk 'test2//ho'
06:22:16 <HackEgo> test1 \ test2
06:22:34 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files,'//')}" 2>&1 | paste
06:22:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.7448
06:25:10 <oerjan> lousy
06:29:30 <oerjan> <ais523> BF's the most popular <-- also featured on the wiki for 3 years straight hth
06:29:42 <zzo38> One part of a book I have mentions if a charged capacitor can discharge through an inductive circuit, that it decays exponentially with time, and the decay can be monotonic or oscillatory depending on if the solutions to the quadratic equation are real or complex.
06:29:43 <ais523> it's a good default
06:29:47 <ais523> unless you're volunteering to feature a new one :-P
06:29:54 <ais523> maybe we can feature the CALESYTA winner once it wins
06:30:06 <ais523> assuming someone writes a sufficiently good article
06:30:16 <zzo38> I have also noticed before that a low pass filter with a complex coefficient will also oscillate. Is it related at all?
06:30:33 <oerjan> ais523: if you win, will you write the blurb? ;P
06:30:42 <ais523> sure
06:39:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, why did you do that to slwd?
06:39:35 <oerjan> shachaf: well originally i was just confusing myself into thinking that it had been affect by my bin/sed
06:39:59 <oerjan> then after i realized it wasn't i thought it's ok
06:40:13 <oerjan> it makes it slightly shorter
06:40:36 <shachaf> I guess it can make sense.
06:40:48 <shachaf> slwd '1rotherwisdom'
06:41:02 <oerjan> heh
06:41:48 <oerjan> except you still cannot get sed to do anything useful on a non-existing or empty file.
06:47:41 <shachaf> Maybe we should switch from sed to perl or something.
06:48:18 <oerjan> but that's longer to type
06:48:41 <shachaf> `` ls tmp
06:48:43 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access tmp: No such file or directory
06:48:48 <shachaf> !
06:48:52 <oerjan> wat
06:49:02 <shachaf> I can't even doag it.
06:49:09 <shachaf> `cat .hgignore
06:49:09 <HackEgo> ​^tmp/
06:49:12 <shachaf> `mkdir tmp
06:49:13 <HackEgo> No output.
06:49:24 <shachaf> `` cd tmp; sled 'a//wa'
06:49:24 <HackEgo> Rosebud!
06:49:46 <shachaf> `` cd tmp; sed -i 'wa' a
06:49:47 <HackEgo> a//
06:50:00 <shachaf> ?
06:50:13 <shachaf> `cat tmp/a
06:50:14 <HackEgo> No output.
06:50:33 <shachaf> `cat bin/sled
06:50:34 <HackEgo> ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" ;
06:50:55 <shachaf> `` cd tmp; sled 'a//wa'
06:50:55 <HackEgo> a//
06:51:13 <shachaf> `rm tmp/a
06:51:14 <HackEgo> No output.
06:51:18 <shachaf> `` cd tmp; sled 'a//wa'
06:51:19 <HackEgo> Rosebud!
06:51:22 <shachaf> `ls tmp
06:51:24 <HackEgo> No output.
06:51:27 <shachaf> are you confused
06:51:32 <shachaf> `` cd tmp; sed -i 'wa' a
06:51:33 <HackEgo> a//
06:51:40 <shachaf> `` which sed
06:51:41 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/sed
06:51:49 <shachaf> `` file /hackenv/bin/sed
06:51:50 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/sed: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
06:51:54 <shachaf> `cat bin/sed
06:51:54 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
06:51:59 <shachaf> `doag bin/sed
06:52:01 <HackEgo> 9512:2016-10-29 <oerjän> sled bin/sed//3d \ 9510:2016-10-29 <oerjän> ` mv bin/sed2 bin/sed \ 9502:2016-10-29 <oerjän> ` mv bin/sed bin/sed2 \ 9501:2016-10-29 <oerjän> sled bin/sed//2c/bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" -a "$1" == "-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi \ 9499:2016-10-29 <oerjän> sled bin/sed//1i#!/bin/bash \ 9497:2016-10-
06:52:04 * oerjan waves
06:52:11 <shachaf> what's all this tdnh
06:52:40 <oerjan> shachaf: boily insisted on using `` sed -i to edit wisdom. i got annoyed hth
06:53:29 <oerjan> it basically makes it write the result for sed -i <script> <file> commands.
06:53:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
06:54:11 <oerjan> (also now `sled doesn't need to do it)
06:54:32 <shachaf> shadowing built-in programs is confusing tdnh
06:54:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i suspected what happened to tmp/ was that someone did a mass rm the other day. it probably got caught by the canary but tmp/ wasn't restored.
06:54:59 <oerjan> *-ed
06:55:20 <shachaf> hm
06:55:27 <shachaf> maybe tmp/ should be in version control
06:55:35 <shachaf> to avoid accidents like that
06:55:40 <oerjan> funny guy
06:55:47 <shachaf> `` cat .hgignore
06:55:48 <HackEgo> ​^tmp/
06:55:58 <oerjan> the only reason to have tmp/ is for it not to be
06:55:59 <shachaf> `` echo ^canary >> .hgignore
06:56:01 <HackEgo> No output.
06:56:08 <shachaf> `rm canary
06:56:09 <HackEgo> No output.
06:56:09 <oerjan> wat
06:56:18 <oerjan> `ls canary
06:56:21 <HackEgo> canary
06:56:24 <shachaf> `` cat canary
06:56:26 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:56:40 * oerjan blinks
06:56:44 <oerjan> `ls canary
06:56:45 <HackEgo> canary
06:56:56 <oerjan> `cat canary
06:56:58 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:57:01 <shachaf> `` sed -i '' canary
06:57:03 <HackEgo> canary//cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:57:05 <oerjan> `/bin/cat canary
06:57:06 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:57:14 <shachaf> oh, i shouldn't have spoiled it
06:57:40 <shachaf> `` rm canary; mkdir canary
06:57:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
06:57:50 <shachaf> `` rm -rf canary; mkdir canary
06:57:51 <HackEgo> No output.
06:57:55 <shachaf> `` ls canary
06:57:55 <HackEgo> No output.
06:57:58 <oerjan> `cat bin/ls
06:57:58 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
06:58:28 <shachaf> `mk .hgignore//^canary/
06:58:30 <HackEgo> ​.hgignore
06:58:35 <shachaf> There, now it won't go away.
06:58:56 <shachaf> `` rmdir tmp
06:58:57 <HackEgo> No output.
07:14:38 <oerjan> cat .hgignore
07:14:43 <oerjan> `cat .hgignore
07:14:44 <HackEgo> ​^canary/
07:15:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
07:16:03 <oerjan> shachaf: um i'm not sure what you did. also you removed tmp/ ...
07:16:09 <oerjan> `ls tmp
07:16:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access tmp: No such file or directory
07:16:20 <shachaf> oerjan: canary/ is the new tmp/ hth
07:16:37 <oerjan> shachaf: er...
07:17:03 <oerjan> ok you only wanted to protect the directory itself, not the contents.
07:17:23 <shachaf> Well, protecting the contents would be nice, but tricky.
07:19:33 <shachaf> I don't like the name, though.
07:19:38 <shachaf> `` ln -s canary tmp
07:19:41 <HackEgo> No output.
07:19:51 <shachaf> There we go.
07:20:09 <shachaf> Now tmp will be restored if canary is deleted.
07:20:18 <shachaf> Also all the scripts that use tmp/ will stop being broken.
07:20:23 <shachaf> I didn't really think it through.
07:20:48 <oerjan> `mk canary/test//hm...
07:20:49 <HackEgo> canary/test
07:21:48 <oerjan> `mk tmp/test//hmmmm...
07:21:49 <HackEgo> tmp/test
07:21:58 <oerjan> `cat canary/test
07:21:59 <HackEgo> hmmmm...
07:22:46 <oerjan> `` rm -r tmp canary
07:22:48 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': No such file or directory
07:22:55 <oerjan> `ls canary
07:22:59 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
07:23:07 <oerjan> wonderful.
07:23:29 <oerjan> `learn Testing again...
07:23:31 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing again...
07:23:35 <oerjan> `ls canary
07:23:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
07:23:43 <oerjan> `ls tmp
07:23:43 <HackEgo> tmp
07:23:51 <oerjan> `` ls -l tmp
07:23:53 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Nov 1 07:22 tmp -> canary
07:23:59 <oerjan> `` ls -l canary
07:24:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
07:24:11 <oerjan> shachaf: your method has problems hth
07:24:19 <shachaf> what problems twh
07:24:21 <shachaf> oh
07:24:53 <shachaf> whoa
07:24:58 <shachaf> did i manage to delete canary
07:25:15 <shachaf> `` file canary
07:25:17 <HackEgo> canary: ERROR: cannot open `canary' (No such file or directory)
07:25:37 <oerjan> It was inevitable.
07:26:03 <shachaf> Oh, but nothing is getting committed now.
07:26:16 <oerjan> lessee
07:26:21 <shachaf> `doag
07:26:23 <HackEgo> 9595:2016-11-01 <shachäf> ` ln -s canary tmp \ 9594:2016-11-01 <shachäf> mk .hgignore//^canary/ \ 9593:2016-11-01 <shachäf> ` rm canary; mkdir canary \ 9592:2016-11-01 <shachäf> ` echo ^canary >> .hgignore \ 9591:2016-11-01 <oerjän> ` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files,\'//\')}" 2>&1 | paste \ 9590:2016-11-01 <oerjän> ` mk \'
07:26:33 <oerjan> huh indeed.
07:26:48 <oerjan> `mkdir canary
07:26:48 <HackEgo> No output.
07:26:59 <oerjan> `learn Testing again...
07:27:02 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing again...
07:27:27 <shachaf> This is pretty useful.
07:27:32 <oerjan> MAYBE
07:27:44 <shachaf> for when certain users are being problematic
07:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I beeped. What.
07:29:15 <oerjan> shachaf: there's a problem though.
07:29:38 <oerjan> `` rm -r canary tmp
07:29:40 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': No such file or directory
07:29:43 <oerjan> `ls tmp
07:29:45 <HackEgo> tmp
07:29:52 <oerjan> oh
07:30:24 <oerjan> `cat canary
07:30:25 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
07:30:53 <shachaf> `` mkfifo canary
07:30:54 <HackEgo> No output.
07:31:04 <shachaf> `file canary
07:31:05 <HackEgo> canary: fifo (named pipe)
07:31:09 <shachaf> `learn Testing
07:31:11 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing
07:31:17 <oerjan> oh it didn't remove canary, it restored that.
07:31:22 <oerjan> er
07:31:24 <oerjan> *tmp
07:31:29 <shachaf> Oh, right, hgignore
07:31:35 <shachaf> `rm canary
07:31:36 <HackEgo> No output.
07:37:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
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08:08:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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08:14:38 <hppavilion[1]> I love middle finger mouse pointers
08:15:32 <hppavilion[1]> Most of my computers are the OS default, but my "click" pointer is usually "middle finger, but larger than all the others"
08:19:54 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if GIMP will edit .cur files...
08:38:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
08:43:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
08:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god. I just cleaned my screen and I think it worked.
09:49:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
09:58:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:59:34 -!- dootniz has changed nick to kragniz.
10:17:32 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
10:17:45 * hppavilion[1] is considering S^S for some set S
10:26:09 <Taneb> Can one talk about an anti-transitive anti-closure
10:30:03 <int-e> sure as long as you don't intend to make any sense
10:31:37 -!- boily has joined.
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10:37:09 <boily> hppavellon[2].
10:40:17 <boily> @massages-loud
10:40:17 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 54m 48s ago: would i lie to you? unless it somehow involved a horrible pun, that is.
10:41:51 <boily> @tell oerjan no, you would rather lye to me, and then I would smell something fishy going on.
10:41:51 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:43:35 <Taneb> boily, you can combine lye with tallow in a soap maker's workshop to get soap!
10:47:28 <boily> Tanallowe!
10:50:08 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
11:23:46 <boily> “♪ Tanallowe Soap™! Cleans your tanebventions deeper and faster than the other brand! ♪”
11:24:00 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BUCKLE CHICKEN).
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12:47:51 <moony> mooooorning
12:57:36 -!- navet has joined.
12:59:41 <moony> navet, never seen you before, are you new?
13:00:13 <navet> hi
13:00:21 <navet> I've never sen you before either.
13:00:27 <navet> seen*
13:00:42 <ais523> I've seen moony before, and I think I've seen navet before but I'm too tired to remember
13:00:43 <navet> So it's plausible that one of us is.
13:01:00 <moony> im not new, been around for a while
13:01:02 <moony> :p
13:01:08 <navet> Proove it.
13:01:11 <moony> not for more than 2 years tho :p
13:01:25 <moony> ask anyone in this channel who is not afk.
13:01:27 <moony> :)
13:01:35 <ais523> that said, even if navet hasn't been here before, someone who says "So it's plausible that one of us is." in that context will almost certainly fit right in
13:02:00 <FaerieFly> hehe
13:02:18 <moony> lol
13:02:20 <moony> +1
13:03:02 * moony goes off to write down a esolang idea he has, altho its implentation would involve solving the Halting Problem
13:03:07 <navet> What context?
13:03:15 <navet> Hello, I'm new.
13:03:25 <moony> `relcome navet
13:03:26 <moony> :p
13:03:36 <HackEgo> navet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:04:19 <navet> Is that a rainbow?
13:04:32 <ais523> it's `welcome with rainbow colours
13:04:32 <navet> Nope, not a real rainbow.
13:04:36 <ais523> well, rainbowish
13:16:24 -!- navet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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13:27:40 <moony> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
13:27:52 <moony> ^ first version of docs on my new little esolang idea
13:33:39 <moony> ais523, what do you think? :)
13:34:20 <ais523> wtf, why does my IRC client have an option to bookmark a link
13:34:24 <ais523> what does that even mean and how did I select it by mistkae
13:34:40 <moony> lol
13:34:40 <ais523> also I'll take a look but I'm too tired to give an opinion tha reuqires thought
13:35:54 <ais523> are you sure that's not uncomputable?
13:36:15 <ais523> also using ) to terminate a list that doesn't start with a ( annoys my aesthetic sense
13:37:01 <moony> ais523, this is a halting problem based language :P each cell's value is determined by whether or not the program halts
13:37:08 <ais523> moony: right
13:37:58 <moony> a 'wimp mode' of it could be where the value is whether or not the cell has halted yet, which is against the main concept of the language
13:38:03 <ais523> if the language is at least TC, then you can prepend [!1: and append )?] to it and have a program that halts if and only if the original didn't halt
13:38:15 <ais523> thus, if it's at least TC, it's uncomputable
13:38:53 -!- atrapado has joined.
13:38:55 <ais523> I think it isn't necessarily /impossible/ because like Splinter, each program can only contain finitely many program literals
13:39:29 <ais523> although, no, the fact you can store programs on the tape means you can create a program that halts if and only if it doesn't halt
13:39:39 <ais523> so the language can't actually be implemented at all, even with a halting oracle
13:40:06 <moony> True.
13:41:47 <moony> well thats a fun paradox, wonder hwy its not on wikipedia :P
13:45:05 * moony adds that little note to the document
13:45:05 <ais523> it's commonly used to disprove the existence of certain hypothetical programs
13:45:06 <moony> thanks ais523
13:45:12 <ais523> (i.e. used as the punchline for proofs by contradiction)
13:45:44 <ais523> here's a sample impossible program: !1:[?])[?]
13:46:07 <ais523> that halts if and only if it doesn't halt
13:47:03 -!- navet has joined.
13:47:10 <moony> wb navet
13:48:33 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nvd.
13:50:00 <moony> hi nvd
13:50:12 <nvd> hi moony
13:50:52 <moony> came up with a esolang concept, well, there is a neat paradox in it if you look up a little
13:51:19 <nvd> I glanced at it
13:51:25 <nvd> But I'm in a lecture right now
13:52:24 <moony> ah
13:54:40 <moony> Also, this is just the concept, im willing to take suggustions, but printing isnt very easy in a 'timeless' language where everything runs at once
13:55:39 -!- ais523 has quit.
14:05:38 * moony rederps in the dead channel
14:10:21 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:12:56 -!- FaerieFly has changed nick to FireFly.
14:13:48 -!- nvd has changed nick to Taneb.
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14:14:47 <AndChat336756> Sup
14:16:59 <AndChat336756> Fuzzy logic which lang is best?
14:17:23 <myname> https://mobile.twitter.com/ThePracticalDev/status/792535447956250624 lmao
14:18:02 <Taneb> Fuzzy Prolog
14:18:25 <AndChat336756> Nice
14:18:37 <AndChat336756> Will look into
14:20:28 -!- AndChat336756 has left ("Leaving").
14:21:00 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:21:00 <Taneb> ...I made that up on the spot
14:21:08 <moony> lol
14:21:10 <Taneb> Turns out it actually exists, thugh
14:21:17 <moony> lol x2
14:21:19 <Taneb> *though
14:21:51 <moony> nice one Taneb :P it is now a tanebvention... maybe. 0.4
14:22:45 <moony> Taneb, im assuming you have time to look at my little esolang document now? :P
14:28:19 * moony wonders if he created the theoretical AND gate program correctly
14:28:33 <moony> [[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?!1:[])]
14:31:08 <moony> and if you can make a AND, you can make a NAND, or a NOT, and with a NOT you can make a adder and subtracter.... etc etc, yay computer in HBL
14:32:36 <FireFly> `le/rn fuzzy prolog/Fuzzy Prolog is a Prolog dialect based on fuzzy resolution instead of traditional truth values. Masao Mukaidono et al. invented it, and Taneb made it up on the spot.
14:32:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'fuzzy prolog': Fuzzy Prolog is a Prolog dialect based on fuzzy resolution instead of traditional truth values. Masao Mukaidono et al. invented it, and Taneb made it up on the spot.
14:32:53 <moony> lol
14:33:21 <moony> well i think my little example there, in the case of a impossible to run language, is a fair bit of proof for Turing Completeness
14:33:27 <moony> FireFly, what do you think?
14:33:56 <FireFly> no idea
14:34:29 <moony> well, heres a link to the theoretical document in case you want to look at it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
14:35:07 <Taneb> moony, not necessarily, you will also need to demonstrate you can access usefully an unbounded amount of memory
14:35:19 <moony> true
14:35:46 * moony makes quick n dirty example of accessing and writing a 1 to every cell on the positive side of the tape
14:36:09 <moony> [!0:[;])!1:[])]
14:40:19 <moony> ibut of course, thats not a useful example
14:41:02 <moony> lets assume that somehow we get a tape filled with '??0' with ? being a random value
14:42:07 <moony> [[[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?!1:[])]!0:[;]] would preform a AND on all of those and replace the 0 after the 2 inputs with either a 1 or zero
14:51:50 <moony> people keep telling me i could do more with this concept, i just dont know WHAT to do
14:52:14 <moony> Taneb, what do you think? any idea?
14:52:21 <moony> s/idea/ideas/
15:07:40 <moony> hello? channel seems dead ):
15:16:11 <moony> made a change to the language, someone pointed out how clunky moving the pointer was, which i wasnt paying attention to for some reason >_>
15:16:20 <moony> the pointer movement commands are now > and <
15:19:09 <moony> yup, channel is dead *flops over dead on the floor*
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16:35:42 <moonythedwarf> anyone alive?
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17:00:34 <int-e> wtf mozilla... how does one read a .jsonlz4 file?
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17:04:35 <FireFly> presumably a lz-compressed JSON file
17:04:53 <FireFly> lz4cat yourfile.jsonlz4 | jq . ?
17:05:23 <shachaf> spookyfly
17:05:35 <FireFly> hi shachaf
17:05:54 <shachaf> thus spook zarathustra
17:06:05 <FireFly> brr, it's staring to get cold
17:06:10 <FireFly> oh you
17:06:12 <shachaf> `? weather
17:06:20 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
17:06:25 <lambdabot> CYUL 011600Z 12006KT 080V150 30SM FEW120 BKN150 BKN240 06/01 A3024 RMK AC1AC4CI2 SLP243 \ ENVA 011650Z 13004KT 9999 FEW006 BKN075 02/01 Q1011 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 12006KT \ ESSB 011650Z 09016G27KT
17:06:25 <lambdabot> 5000 -RA BKN008 OVC019 03/02 Q1000 \ KOAK 011653Z 30004KT 10SM SCT015 16/11 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP192 T01560106 PNO \ PAMR 011653Z 00000KT 10SM FEW075 M01/M03 A2920 RMK AO2 SLP888 T10111033
17:06:47 <FireFly> the forecast for friday morning is M07
17:07:01 <int-e> FireFly: I tried that: Error 44 : Unrecognized header : file cannot be decoded
17:07:19 <FireFly> welp
17:07:45 <int-e> I created a new profile and imported the bookmarks...
17:07:46 <FireFly> in that case I've no idea
17:08:05 <int-e> ...but wtf would be wrong with storing them in a format that can actually be read?!
17:09:02 <int-e> (I'm speculating that zimilar to zlib, lz4 supports some header-less "bare" format, and they're using that)
17:09:05 <shachaf> "This file format is in fact just plain LZ4 data with a custom header (magic number [8 bytes] and uncompressed file size [4 bytes, little endian])."
17:09:58 <int-e> but why?
17:10:45 <shachaf> «Do not say, "Why were the old days better than these?" For it is not wise to ask such questions.»
17:12:36 <int-e> no, why use a custom header instead of the one defined by the lz4 file format...
17:12:50 <shachaf> it is not wise to ask such questions hth
17:13:03 <int-e> I'm *complaining*, it's stress relief.
17:15:24 <int-e> shachaf: but thanks for the quote
17:16:14 <shachaf> The quote is from https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/3offju/jsonlz4_file/ which also has a bunch of links.
17:16:26 <shachaf> Unless you meant the other one, which is from Ecclesiastes 7:10
17:16:35 <int-e> shachaf: google does reverse lookup of quotes fairly well. hence the thanks.
17:19:39 <int-e> (the script works)
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17:56:13 <int-e> (fwiw, looking at the code there is no sign of the uncompressed file size...)
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18:37:31 <hppavilion[2]> Is there a name for "a perfect nonzero natural power of a prime"?
18:37:43 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
18:40:17 <hppavilion[1]> (also nice: the set |P \union {1/p : p \in |P})
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19:22:16 <Draconiator> Ahhhh here we go.
19:23:26 <Draconiator> Been thinking it would be interesing to make a language based on MtG keywords. http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Keyword_ability
19:38:13 <moonythedwarf> hellovilion[1]
19:38:40 <moonythedwarf> i made a new esolang concept: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
19:38:47 <Draconiator> {
19:38:49 <Draconiator> First Strike
19:38:51 <Draconiator> Delve "2"
19:38:53 <Draconiator> {Shadow "2", Fabricate
19:38:55 <Draconiator> }
19:38:57 <Draconiator> Deathtouch
19:38:59 <Draconiator> }
19:39:19 <Draconiator> that would look for the Number 2, and create it if it doesn't find it.
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22:07:27 <boily> @massages-loud
22:07:27 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
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22:10:06 <moony> helloily
22:11:05 <boily> mhelloony.
22:12:50 <boily> `? moon
22:12:52 <HackEgo> Moon is a murderous lunatic, not an unretroreflectorey object. He sometimes causes overmoonification.
22:13:18 <boily> moony: what do you think of the sun?
22:13:31 <moony> *screeeee*
22:15:27 <olsner> is that a happy screeeee or an angry screeeee?
22:16:23 <boily> moony: what are your approximative geographic coördinates and body weigh?
22:16:47 <boily> hellolsner.
22:17:03 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] hppavellon[1]. you still haven't called me.
22:17:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:17:09 <olsner> hoily moily
22:17:25 <int-e> . o O ( 384000km up )
22:19:32 <boily> I'll put 7.3 × 10²² kg.
22:21:55 <int-e> And always in a hurry.
22:22:23 <boily> maybe it was a hurrying screeeee?
22:26:33 <^v> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O1UvD2hNHs
22:26:37 <^v> terrible editing
22:26:40 <^v> terrible voice
22:26:44 <^v> terrible presentation quality
22:26:51 <^v> hope u enjoy :v
22:26:59 <^v> also i pronounced eso wrong
22:27:22 <ais523> I pronounce it with a long e
22:29:43 <boily> is that your ^voice?
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22:44:58 * boily screeeees moony
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23:20:51 <boily> `wisdom
23:20:56 <HackEgo> grammar//Grammar is just the evil subset of syntax.
23:21:03 <boily> `? syntax
23:21:04 <HackEgo> Syntax is just a subset of grammar.
23:21:13 <boily> ...
23:21:18 <boily> `? just
23:21:19 <HackEgo> Just is just a just adverb.
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23:38:12 <myname> so syntax equals grammar?
23:39:46 <boily> I'm sure you could exploit some set theory shenanigan to affirm that syntax and grammar are different...
23:39:59 <myname> how so
23:40:48 <moony> esolang concept: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
23:40:59 <boily> I don't know, just pragmatic paranoia to the direction of mathematicians.
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23:50:53 <oerjan> @messages-
23:50:53 <lambdabot> boily said 13h 9m 1s ago: no, you would rather lye to me, and then I would smell something fishy going on.
23:51:10 <oerjan> bhelloily
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23:51:39 <boily> børjansoir.
23:54:28 * oerjan uses host -mx instead of host -t mx . it is super verbose.
23:56:40 <boily> what's a host -mx?
23:58:12 <hppavilion[1]> `? ü
23:58:13 <HackEgo> ​ü? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-crowd
23:58:21 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
23:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-lout
23:58:37 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 41m 34s ago: hppavellon[1]. you still haven't called me.
23:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I haven't needed to say "Hmong" yet
23:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn ü/ü is the second derivative of the letter 'u' with respect to time.
2016-11-02
00:00:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'ü': ü is the second derivative of the letter 'u' with respect to time.
00:00:02 <hppavilion[1]> (or something)
00:00:32 <oerjan> boily: host is DNS lookup. -m is the debugging option. not sure what the x argument does, the man page doesn't list it.
00:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> How does one represent the derivative of a variable 'i' or 'j' with respect to time, I wonder?
00:00:50 <oerjan> also, -t mx is lookup of mail records.
00:01:35 * boily is retroactively blinded by the tachionic flash of sudden hindsillumination
00:02:03 <boily> hppavilion[1]: your priorities are misaligned. you should always be prepared to hmong hth
00:02:15 <oerjan> `learn ü r üsing töö mäny ümlaüts tdnh
00:02:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'ü': ü r üsing töö mäny ümlaüts tdnh
00:02:19 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm always prepared, I just haven't needed to hth
00:02:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I added a binding for ü and Ü to my keyboard. Not sure why
00:03:05 <hppavilion[1]> Probably so I can say "über" whenever I want to and look schmancy?
00:03:13 <oerjan> huh
00:03:19 <boily> preparation is practice. practice makes perfect. you know what else begins with p? pterodactyl. I rest my case.
00:03:39 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, what do blind people get when they reconsider past actions based on newew information and approaches?
00:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> *newer
00:03:55 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/{u,ü}*
00:03:58 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/ü*: No such file or directory \ wisdom/u \ wisdom/uaneb \ wisdom/ub \ wisdom/umlaut \ wisdom/uncyclopedia \ wisdom/unicide \ wisdom/unicode \ wisdom/union \ wisdom/united states \ wisdom/universal property \ wisdom/universe \ wisdom/unlambda \ wisdom/unréliable \ wisdom/urbandictionary \ wisdom/ursala \ wisdom/usa \ wisdo
00:04:15 <oerjan> wat
00:04:26 <hppavilion[1]> The word "umlaut" makes me sad
00:04:50 <oerjan> ...
00:04:55 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
00:05:17 <shachaf> ?
00:05:25 <hppavilion[1]> It should clearly be either ümlaut or ümläüt.
00:05:28 <oerjan> shachaf: canary is still gone tdnh
00:05:35 <shachaf> oh
00:05:38 <shachaf> `ls canary
00:05:38 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
00:05:39 <oerjan> and our `learns aren't taking
00:05:44 <shachaf> `mkdir canary
00:05:45 <HackEgo> No output.
00:06:05 <oerjan> shachaf: after some thinking, i think that trick is entirely useless
00:06:39 <oerjan> because it won't actually prevent the canary from being deleted, it just leaves the repo and directory inconsistent
00:06:40 <fizzie> I haven't been following -- what did you invent now?
00:06:47 <oerjan> `cat .hgignore
00:06:47 <HackEgo> ​^canary/
00:06:54 <shachaf> `` ls -l tmp
00:06:55 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Nov 1 07:29 tmp -> canary
00:07:06 <boily> `? ü
00:07:07 <HackEgo> ​ü? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:07:08 <oerjan> fizzie: shachaf got a bright idea but it's not really doing what it was intended, i think.
00:07:14 <shachaf> fizzie: i invented a way to delete canary hth
00:07:16 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
00:07:28 <hppavilion[1]> ("üm̈l̈äüẗ" is technically correct but discouraged)
00:07:52 * boily lightly shakes hppavilion[1] to disperse the rampant diæreses
00:08:09 <oerjan> `le/rn ü/ü is the second derivative of the letter 'u' with respect to time.
00:08:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'ü': ü is the second derivative of the letter 'u' with respect to time.
00:08:17 <oerjan> `? ü
00:08:18 <HackEgo> ​ü is the second derivative of the letter 'u' with respect to time.
00:08:21 <oerjan> there you go.
00:08:26 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I've never been clear on whether di(ae|æ)resis is supposed to have æ
00:08:30 <fizzie> I'm a little tempted to add a patch to disallow .hgignore modification to the list of pending changes, it seems to be more trouble than its worth.
00:08:37 <hppavilion[1]> OK, yes
00:08:52 <oerjan> fizzie: can you fix it as containing ^tmp/ , then?
00:09:14 <shachaf> it just needs to contain .hgignore
00:09:15 <oerjan> i think the ^canary/ version is too troublesome.
00:09:20 <oerjan> shachaf: :P
00:09:22 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:09:27 <oerjan> NOT SURE THAT WORKS
00:09:35 <shachaf> `mk .hgignore//^tmp/
00:09:38 <HackEgo> ​.hgignore
00:09:44 <shachaf> `` rm tmp; mkdir tmp
00:09:46 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `tmp': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `tmp': File exists
00:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> Wikipedia says "does" can never be written "dœs".
00:09:56 <shachaf> `` ls -l tmp
00:09:57 <HackEgo> total 0
00:10:14 <boily> hppavilion[1]: if you can ligature, lig it.
00:10:35 <shachaf> `` rm -rf canary; mk 'canary//cat: canary: No such file or directory'
00:10:37 <HackEgo> canary
00:10:38 * hppavilion[1] disagræs, as e can and dœs
00:10:42 <shachaf> oerjan: hth
00:10:59 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like "æ" should make the [ei] sound, or at least [e].
00:11:27 <oerjan> also, someone needs to wake up Gregor.
00:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> But in English, it usually makes [ɛ], and it's [æ] in IPA
00:12:16 <fizzie> I did manage to set up the letsencrypt thing so that https://esolangs.org/... will continue to work; the old StartSSL certificate was due to expire.
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00:13:05 <\oren\> no, ü is a smily face
00:13:42 <oerjan> fizzie: if you do that, could you also disallow outright deleting the tmp/ directory? that was what started this whole ^canary/ attempt...
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00:14:25 <\oren\> the RIDICULOUSLY HAPPY FACE
00:14:45 <oerjan> because emptying it is fine, but completely disappearing breaks commands.
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00:16:51 <boily> `le/rn ü/ü is the ridiculously happy derivative of the letter ‘u’ with respect to time.
00:16:53 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ü': ü is the ridiculously happy derivative of the letter ‘u’ with respect to time.
00:16:58 <hppavilion[1]> Anybody who gets a word like "æroplane", "Encyclopædia", "Archæ<anything>", etc. and DOESN'T spell it with an "æ" makes me sad
00:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> (in a spelling bee. Forgot to add that while constantly searching for more wærds)
00:17:43 <boily> HE\\OREN\. YOU SOUND HAPPY.
00:18:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe wœrds?)
00:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> (What I REALLY need is an ao...)
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00:19:54 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Welsh lets you write IJ as a single symbol, iirc. See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/%C4%B2_uppercase_ligature.svg hth
00:20:53 <hppavilion[1]> ꬱ is... interesting. It's an æ, but with schwa rather than e.
00:21:00 <hppavilion[1]> (* reverse schwa)
00:21:05 <hppavilion[1]> (** reversed)
00:21:36 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:23:57 <hppavilion[1]> Must... find... øe ligature...
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00:24:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It may be of use to you
00:24:52 <oerjan> `slwd ü//s/der/second der/
00:24:54 <HackEgo> ​ü//ü is the ridiculously happy second derivative of the letter ‘u’ with respect to time.
00:26:26 <hppavilion[1]> IMO, unicode should be more combinational than it is; at the moment, it's just throw-everything-in-a-bag-and-give-it-a-number. Preferable would be to make more modular characters (like diacritical ones, but extended. And no precomposed characters, dammit.)
00:27:24 <hppavilion[1]> There is apparently a company with an Ø̈ in its name
00:28:33 <oerjan> most likely, several hth
00:28:41 <quintopia> helloily
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00:38:12 <boily> quinthellopia
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00:39:46 <moonheart08> derp3
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00:43:21 <quintopia> tell me boily
00:43:57 <boily> I tell you.
00:44:38 <quintopia> how would you write a program
00:44:59 <quintopia> to output a decimal number
00:45:06 <quintopia> in aubergine
00:46:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Did you notice it's a Ø with an umlaut?
00:47:07 <oerjan> no.
00:47:08 <hppavilion[1]> (a Ø? an Ø? Probably an Ø, but I'm not sure...)
00:47:13 <boily> quintopia: good question. thinking...
00:47:17 <oerjan> `unidecode Ø̈
00:47:17 <HackEgo> ​[U+00D8 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH STROKE] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS]
00:47:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the umlaut happens to completely overlap it, so it's invisible in putty hth
00:48:03 <hppavilion[1]> Now to invent a new curse word from my list of every 4-letter word fitting a set of simple structures, including many with special characters
00:49:07 <oerjan> gäap̈
00:49:14 <FireFly> I'm reminded by D[ou]bbeldusch, using the same logo in all scandinavian countries but having it read as Dobbeldusch in some and Dubbeldusch in others
00:49:28 <FireFly> re. the ø^H¨
00:50:22 <oerjan> FireFly: too bad "dusch" isn't the correct spelling in norwegian
00:52:48 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] is considering S^S for some set S <-- that has the same cardinality as 2^S if S is infinite hth
00:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: tdh
00:53:06 <oerjan> i think i may have mentioned that already
00:53:18 <FireFly> oerjan: hm, too bad
00:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> tøñg.
00:53:35 <oerjan> (it's dusj)
00:53:43 <FireFly> https://www.lyko.se/globalassets/product-images/dubbeldusch-fresh--1482-101-0250_1.jpg?ref=422023 I always though their [ou] was clever
00:53:56 <boily> quintopia: maybe something inspired by http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Print_value_of_cell_x_as_number_for_ANY_sized_cell_.28ie_8bit.2C_16bit.2C_etc.29
00:53:59 <oerjan> it probably works in danish though
00:54:38 <boily> quintopia: aubergine has to loop over the individual digits until zero, add 0x30 to each of them, then print in reverse.
00:55:34 <boily> hppavilion[1]: have you tried the Canadien Multilingue Standard layout? great umlauty opportunities!
00:55:43 <FireFly> is it maybe different in nynorsk, or dusj in both?
00:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Oh, really? :D
00:55:52 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I've been making my own layout
00:56:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Identical to US QWERTY on the surface, but with altgr for lots of frequently-useful characters)
00:56:51 <FireFly> there's also us-international
00:56:57 <FireFly> and a bunch of other ones
00:57:13 <FireFly> though I went the "let's roll my own" way too
00:57:26 <quintopia> boily: i dont think the bf algos work
00:57:30 <FireFly> based on svorak-a1 instead of us qwerty though
00:57:47 <oerjan> FireFly: same in bokmål & nynorsk afaik
00:57:49 <quintopia> most require a number of cells proportional to the digits
00:57:55 <FireFly> Ah okay
00:58:06 <quintopia> aubergine had a small fixed number of cells
00:58:12 <boily> oh hm.
00:58:16 <boily> eh.
00:58:31 <oerjan> nynorsk would be slightly _more_ unlikely to use sch, i think.
01:04:18 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Do Canadians say "eh" in your region?
01:04:40 <boily> hppavilion[1]: no, we say «là».
01:04:46 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Ah, yes
01:04:57 <boily> quintopia: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
01:05:01 * oerjan thought they said "tsé"
01:05:25 <boily> eille, tsé, là là...
01:06:00 <boily> hppavilion[1]: we also say «hein». it's a nice nasal, which you can hear if you call me!
01:06:03 <oerjan> (in my region people say "sjø", although i don't share that dialect)
01:06:23 <boily> is the sjø ingressive?
01:06:39 <oerjan> i don't think so.
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01:07:17 <oerjan> i think that applies more to "ja" around oslo
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01:09:56 <oerjan> . o O ( alas )
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01:11:09 <boily> . o O ( unalas )
01:11:40 * oerjan finds it very slightly annoying that tatham's Net puzzle starts the keyboard marker in the central light, rather than in the upper left where nearly all the other games do, and where he'd much rather start.
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01:37:56 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> Is there a name for "a perfect nonzero natural power of a prime"? <-- prime power is the usual term i think
01:38:49 <oerjan> unless you mean perfect number, in which case i think there aren't any
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01:40:04 <FireFly> Hm, I mainly associate ingressive "jo" with northern sweden
01:40:35 <oerjan> . o O ( it's only a matter of time before someone pastes that youtube link... )
01:50:47 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> I'll put 7.3 × 10²² kg. <-- i fear this may throw off the precious center of mass tdnh
01:50:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:51:50 <moonythedwarf_> hi oerjan
01:52:04 <moonythedwarf_> did you see my esolang concept i posted?
01:52:07 <oerjan> helloonythedwarf
01:52:39 <oerjan> only the part where ais523 claimed it inconsistent
01:52:53 <moonythedwarf_> lol
01:53:19 <moonythedwarf_> ![?])[?] you derp
01:54:17 <oerjan> i never derp it upsets my stomach hth
01:54:32 <moonythedwarf_> lol
01:55:28 <moonythedwarf_> well, ![?])[?] is a good example of a undecidable proogram in it (aka halts if and only if it doesnnt halt)
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01:58:46 * oerjan points godel to moonythedwarf_'s undecidable language
01:59:02 <godel> 2mm
01:59:06 <godel> can I see it?
01:59:48 <moonythedwarf_> im on mobile and cant get the doc link, oerjan xan you find the google doc link for me pls? kthx
02:00:23 <oerjan> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
02:00:43 <moonythedwarf_> godel ^
02:01:06 <godel> cool
02:01:59 <moonythedwarf_> ![?])[?] is a good example of a paradoxical program. it only halts if it doesnt hal
02:02:40 <moonythedwarf_> *PARADOXIFY*
02:05:48 <moonythedwarf_> on th other hand, i beleive this language can simulate a turing machine(more specifically a oracle machine)
02:06:43 <moonythedwarf_> oerjan: what do you think?
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02:18:47 <moony> does a undecidable + uncomputable (read: paradoxical) esolang belong on the wiki?
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02:27:48 <alercah> moonythedwarf: why not
02:33:19 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: note that there's a difference between undecidable and truly paradoxical - in the latter, you cannot even _define_ what the correct outcome is.
02:33:36 <oerjan> *+case
02:33:52 * oerjan is sure he _thought_ "case". why didn't he type it?
02:34:36 <oerjan> i'm dropping so many words these days that it looks like i have bad grammar :(
02:36:48 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: and if you cannot _define_ what a program does, then it makes no sense to ask whether it's TC.
02:37:10 <oerjan> imo
02:46:25 <oerjan> (i'm not saying whether or not your language is that paradoxical, mind you.)
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02:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> My god...
02:56:48 <hppavilion[1]> Just to see what would happen, I put in θ as a variable name in Python
02:56:51 <hppavilion[1]> And it didn't complain
02:56:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, the IDE didn't)
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02:58:53 <oerjan> > let θ="Stop that!" in var θ
02:58:55 <lambdabot> Stop that!
02:59:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: lambdabot complained hth
02:59:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ........not exactly sure what just happened.
03:00:06 <hppavilion[1]> But I think you made god cry
03:00:18 <oerjan> again?
03:01:11 * oerjan thinks hppavilion[1] is easily confused
03:06:13 <shachaf> `type dot
03:06:17 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
03:06:19 <shachaf> ugh
03:06:22 <shachaf> `which dot
03:06:23 <HackEgo> No output.
03:06:36 <shachaf> good thing graphviz isn't installed
03:06:56 <oerjan> `dots Do you want this?
03:06:57 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dots: not found
03:07:01 <oerjan> oops
03:07:07 <oerjan> `döts Do you want this?
03:07:08 <HackEgo> Dö ÿöü ẅänẗ ẗḧïs?
03:07:10 <shachaf> otherwise it would conflict with timestamped, reversed file history, without including removed files
03:07:43 <shachaf> `cat bin/dots
03:07:44 <HackEgo> cat: bin/dots: No such file or directory
03:07:51 <shachaf> ööps
03:07:55 <shachaf> `cat bin/döts
03:07:55 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ print_args_or_input "$@" | sed -re "y/aehiotuwxyAEHIOUWXY/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿÄËḦÏÖÜẄẌŸ/"
03:08:19 <shachaf> why not combining dot above
03:08:39 <oerjan> not sure.
03:09:11 <shachaf> combining maths above
03:09:14 <shachaf> `? taneb
03:09:15 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
03:09:21 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
03:09:22 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
03:09:27 <shachaf> Did Taneb invent combining characters?
03:09:30 <oerjan> no.
03:09:36 <shachaf> `? special relativity
03:09:37 <HackEgo> special relativity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:09:42 <shachaf> What, because it's too long?
03:10:10 <shachaf> `? dragons
03:10:11 <HackEgo> dragons? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:10:24 <shachaf> what's with all the undefined tanebventions tdnh
03:10:27 <shachaf> (taneb did not help)
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03:11:51 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep 'special|dragon'
03:11:54 <HackEgo> No output.
03:12:05 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | egrep 'special\|dragon'
03:12:07 <HackEgo> No output.
03:12:10 <oerjan> wat
03:12:19 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | egrep special
03:12:21 <HackEgo> 9258:2016-10-13 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity#
03:12:26 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | egrep dragon
03:12:28 <HackEgo> 9481:2016-10-27 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#sand#&, dragons#
03:13:24 <oerjan> shachaf: they're on probation hth
03:14:49 <shachaf> oerjan: glad to hear that they have probative value
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05:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out how one could possibly have a person outside of {0, 1, 2, 3} (in ANY language, not just when constrained by english)
05:40:44 <hppavilion[1]> (As a refresher: 1 := personal pronouns; "I/me" performs the actions; 3 := other person; "e/em" or variant performs the actions; 2 := listener; "you" perform the actions; 0 := null; whodunnit isn't referenced (not available in normal English))
05:42:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you might have a that/this distinction in the third...
05:43:20 <oerjan> i.e. distinguishing other close and other far away
05:43:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Doesn't Spivak technically include inanimate objects?
05:43:29 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, NVM
05:43:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I thought of that; maybe
05:44:05 <hppavilion[1]> But it'd be awkward to decide whether or not a character being omnisciently narrated should be referenced as distant or near
05:44:14 <oerjan> also, the plural ones should properly involve subsets; e.g. some languages distinguish inclusive and exclusive "we"
05:44:17 <hppavilion[1]> (Actually, I take that back, that would be a powerful tool for writers...)
05:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, yes
05:44:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: A language with plural "you"; plural second person
05:44:49 <oerjan> and there's the reflexive pronouns.
05:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh?
05:52:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, those. I thought those were just variants on the other pronouns for different contextual usage?
05:53:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: in english, yes. but some languages use the same reflexive pronoun for all persons.
05:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> Oh?
05:54:00 <oerjan> e.g. czech.
05:54:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...like "yourself" or "himself?
05:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> s,\?,"?,
05:55:03 <oerjan> yes
05:55:25 <oerjan> iirc. wiktionary doesn't seem to have the word i remembered.
05:56:45 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/svoj#Serbo-Croatian looks equivalent.
05:58:18 <oerjan> of course that's possessive. trying to find if it's true for non-possessives too...
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05:58:51 <oerjan> ah yes, found the russian one https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B1%D1%8F#Russian
06:00:20 <oerjan> (presumably this is a common slavic feature. norwegian and german have reflexive pronouns but they're only for third person (all genders and numbers though)
06:00:23 <oerjan> )
06:00:40 <oerjan> (no:seg de:sich)
06:01:10 <shachaf> these pronouns have so many rules
06:01:19 <shachaf> but possessives are nine tenths of the rules
06:05:30 <oerjan> shachaf: that may be a _little_ exaggerated. but given that the possessives are inflected like adjectives but the others like nouns (well, very irregular ones), maybe 3/4.
06:06:11 <shachaf> it's 100% exaggerated and not serious hth
06:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> Linguistic annoyance: Proper nouns in the form of a possessive.
06:06:21 <oerjan> OKAY
06:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> For example, McDonald's (the restaurant). Pluralizing it is hard enough, but what's REALLY annoying is to try to discuss something belonging to the company. Or a thing belonging to individual establishments, but which many establishments have... X = McDonald's; Xs'. McDonald's'?
06:09:05 <shachaf> isn't "s'" only used for possessivizing plurals
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06:09:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes
06:10:13 <oerjan> heh
06:10:30 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But I'm referring to a thing owned by multiple establishments, or where each establishment owns a similar thing; like the parking lot. "McDonald's' parking lots are always dirty."
06:11:05 <pikhq> When referring to multiple McDonald's restaurants, I would be inclined to say McDonalds'
06:11:05 <hppavilion[1]> (pronounce roughly like <McDonald>z-z-z)
06:11:05 <oerjan> surely that should be McDonald'ses' hth
06:11:17 <shachaf> what oerjan said
06:11:27 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I would too, but what if I want to refer to something that they all own?
06:11:39 <pikhq> I would leave the possessive as-is.
06:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: In general, what if I want to refer to something McDonald's possesses?
06:11:53 <pikhq> "McDonalds' parking lots are always dirty"
06:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> But that's something owned by some guy named McDonald
06:12:16 <pikhq> No, that's something owned by several McDonalds.
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09:28:42 <b_jonas> @messages
09:28:42 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
09:28:58 <b_jonas> happy end of the long weekend
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10:54:51 <boily> `wisdom
10:54:57 <HackEgo> tall//A Tall proof is a proof with a small hole, which can only be filled by another Tall proof.
10:54:59 <boily> @massages-loud
10:54:59 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 4m 11s ago: <boily> I'll put 7.3 × 10²² kg. <-- i fear this may throw off the precious center of mass tdnh
10:56:43 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan. only slightly. as the proverb says, "trust me, I'm an engineer".
10:56:43 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:57:54 <boily> . o O ( how can I @tell moony something... )
11:03:48 <izalove> try @tell moony something...
11:03:54 <izalove> hth
11:06:03 <boily> izellove. moony has many nicks; do I have to @tell to every one of them?
11:06:44 <izalove> no, only the nick moony will use the next time
11:06:52 <izalove> duh
11:07:57 <boily> ...
11:09:18 <boily> @tell moony mhelloony.
11:09:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:09:29 <boily> @tell moonythedwarf mhelloonythedwarf.
11:09:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:09:39 <boily> @tell moonheart08 moonhellort08.
11:09:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:09:48 <boily> let's start small, then adapt.
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12:54:35 <moony> moo4
12:54:53 <moony> @messages-loud
12:54:54 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 45m 35s ago: mhelloony.
12:55:00 <moony> olol
13:04:14 <moony> anyone alive?
13:04:28 <b_jonas> no
13:04:32 <b_jonas> `wisdom
13:04:34 <moony> lol
13:04:42 <HackEgo> mips//MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
13:04:49 <moony> b_jonas, i made a thing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
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13:14:58 <b_jonas> It's so confusing, all these similar English words with "q" in them and some meaning related to destroy or crush or suppress. "squeeze", "squish", "squash", "quash", "quell", "quench" (this last one means to put out a fire).
13:16:20 <moony> lol
13:17:04 <b_jonas> "quash" is the one I just read now I don't recall having seen before, but since they're so confusingly similar I might just have forgetten that particular one
13:17:55 <b_jonas> This sort of thing works differently for me than for most native English speakers, since I listen to English very little and so pay attention to the spelling of words way more than the pronunciation.
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13:49:24 <b_jonas> tornadoes again.
13:49:31 <b_jonas> (in xkcd)
13:50:41 <moony> lol
13:59:35 <myname> i recommend the android app "the sequence" to anybody who likes bullying automatons
14:31:26 <b_jonas> `? ayacc
14:31:27 <HackEgo> ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl
14:31:36 <b_jonas> the location has to be updated
14:45:01 <shachaf> `cwlpris mips
14:45:02 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cwlpris: not found
14:45:09 <shachaf> `cwlprits mips
14:45:11 <HackEgo> oerjän ellioẗt oerjän boil̈y
14:45:21 <shachaf> `dowg mips
14:45:22 <HackEgo> 4531:2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 4530:2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 4034:2013-11-20 <oerjän> learn MIPS Is Popular in Schools. \ 4033:2013-11-20 <boil̈y> learn MIPS Is Popular In Schools.
14:45:33 <shachaf> `cat bin/hlnp
14:45:33 <HackEgo> revset='tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895 | 9075 | 9074)' \ hg log -r "$revset" "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
14:45:56 <shachaf> `sled bin/hlnp//1s#..$# | 4530 | 4531&#
14:45:59 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//revset='tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895 | 9075 | 9074 | 4530 | 4531)' \ hg log -r "$revset" "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
14:46:12 <shachaf> `dowg mips
14:46:14 <HackEgo> 4034:2013-11-20 <oerjän> learn MIPS Is Popular in Schools. \ 4033:2013-11-20 <boil̈y> learn MIPS Is Popular In Schools.
14:46:28 <shachaf> `? mipis
14:46:29 <HackEgo> mipis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:46:45 <shachaf> `learn MIPIS is Persecuted In Schools.
14:46:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'mipi': MIPIS is Persecuted In Schools.
14:46:59 <shachaf> `learn MIPIS Is Persecuted In Schools.
14:47:01 <HackEgo> Relearned 'mipi': MIPIS Is Persecuted In Schools.
14:47:04 <shachaf> ugh
14:47:14 <shachaf> Is that new?
14:47:18 <b_jonas> only I'm not sure what the new url was. I think it was mercurial-only, but don't know the exact url
14:47:29 <shachaf> `` mv wisdom/mipi{,s}
14:47:31 <HackEgo> No output.
14:47:41 <shachaf> oerjan: this is one no one uses `learn hth
14:47:47 <shachaf> this is why
14:48:08 <moony> `? hth
14:48:10 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
14:48:38 <b_jonas> it's something like http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc/ but I'm not sure what
14:48:40 <b_jonas> damn it
14:48:50 <b_jonas> does anyone know?
14:49:30 <b_jonas> ah! wait
14:49:45 <b_jonas> I think it's a darcs repository, not a mercurial one
14:59:54 <b_jonas> `learn ayacc/ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
14:59:54 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/learn: line 4: wisdom/ayacc/ayacc: Not a directory \ Learned 'ayacc/ayacc': ayacc/ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
15:00:01 <b_jonas> huh?
15:00:11 <b_jonas> `slashlearn ayacc/ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
15:00:13 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ayacc': ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
15:00:20 <b_jonas> `? ayacc
15:00:21 <HackEgo> ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
15:00:22 <b_jonas> that
15:12:25 <izalove> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-bash/2016-11/msg00005.html buffer overflow in bash and the proof of concept is [.[.*
15:12:31 <izalove> 5 fucking characters
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15:54:29 <\oren\> `? aisventions?
15:54:30 <HackEgo> aisventions?? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:54:32 <\oren\> `? aisventions
15:54:33 <HackEgo> aisventions? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:54:35 <\oren\> `? aisvention
15:54:36 <HackEgo> aisvention? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:54:44 <\oren\> `? ais523vention
15:54:45 <HackEgo> ais523vention? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:54:49 <\oren\> `? avention
15:54:51 <HackEgo> avention? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:54:54 <\oren\> ba
15:56:46 <shachaf> `? orinventions
15:56:47 <HackEgo> orinventions? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:58:03 <b_jonas> `? orenvention
15:58:04 <HackEgo> orenvention? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:58:05 <b_jonas> `? Taneb
15:58:06 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
15:58:14 <b_jonas> it has a see also
15:58:16 <b_jonas> `? \oren\
15:58:17 <HackEgo> ​\oren\ is an attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability, and it made everything else... well, there isn't much else in a nick, is there?
15:58:19 <b_jonas> `? oren
15:58:20 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters.
15:58:26 <alercah> `? alercah
15:58:27 <HackEgo> alercah? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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17:48:47 <hppavilion[1]> Shouldn't "Contrast" just be "Pare"?
17:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Or, alternatively, "compare" becoming "trast")
17:51:01 <moony> hellovilion[1]
17:51:30 <moony> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
17:51:34 <myname> shouldn't it be frige instead of fridge?
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18:30:29 <\oren\> myname: why?
18:30:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:30:42 <\oren\> fridge is short for refridgerator
18:31:28 <myname> huh? i only know refrigerator
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18:41:08 <izalove> geirha | The best fix for tomcat is rm -- llua | one of apache's missteps, like the apache webserver.
18:42:22 <alercah> truth
18:44:53 * hppavilion[2] . o O ( Shouldn't it be Wikipædia? )
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19:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> Congratulations! You win a video targeted at people with a fetish for cones full of yellow kernels!
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19:11:34 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god. In English, a sentence can be additionally emphasized by adding more exclamation points!!!
19:11:36 <hppavilion[1]> </pun>
19:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> One must wonder what happens when you do it in spanish. do they have to balance, or..?
19:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> that's not a pun
19:12:28 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: It's a punctuation
19:12:34 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, that didn't change the spelling at all
19:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> PUNctuation
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19:52:10 <hppavilion[1]> Is the adjective form of triangle (other than "triangular") better spelled "triangly" or "triangley"?
19:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going with the latter
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19:56:05 <FireFly> why not just use 'triangular'?
20:01:18 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: "triangle?y" sounds more childish
20:04:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOo CODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50071&oldid=41109 * Trecio * (+53) Credits to the real author of included HELLO WORLD program.
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20:31:37 <\oren\> trianglish
20:32:00 <\oren\> triangleriffic
20:32:06 <myname> dreieckig
20:32:57 <\oren\> 三角的
20:33:18 <\oren\> (sankakuteki)
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20:35:14 <\oren\> trianglian
20:35:53 <\oren\> triangelic
20:37:25 <\oren\> tringlish
20:41:00 <\oren\> I just realized my font has accidental vertical ligatures
20:41:04 <\oren\> p
20:41:05 <\oren\> k
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20:50:58 <ais523> vertical ligatures don't sound that useful
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20:57:23 <\oren\> I don't understand why it's possible for a video to be out of sync with the audio
20:57:28 <\oren\> the format should be something like |FRAME|1/60s of audio|FRAME|1/60s of audio....
20:59:07 <\oren\> such that each frame and its corresponding audio are directly known
20:59:32 <ais523> \oren\: the audio and video are typically recorded separately (one using a camera, the other using the microphone)
20:59:46 <ais523> and when they're combined into a single container, sometimes the input is misaligned so the output is misaligned too
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21:24:02 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... is a vector in non-euclidean space an Elliptic Vector or Parabolic vector (depending on how non-euclidean the space is)?
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21:37:51 <shachaf> what is a vector in non-euclidean space twh
21:53:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A euclidean vector is a vector in euclidean space, where here "euclidean space" means a space like that used in Euclidean geometry (though, usually with more numeric coordinates). A vector in non-euclidean space is a vector in a space that behaves like that used in non-euclidean geometry.
21:53:26 <shachaf> what is that
21:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Which part?
21:53:36 <shachaf> I know what a vector space is.
21:53:47 <shachaf> What's a "non-euclidean space"?
21:53:54 <shachaf> Is it a vector space?
21:54:31 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: (1) Space that behaves like non-euclidean geometry, where parallel lines either cross (Elliptical) or have a closest point (Hyperbolic) (2) Probably?
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21:55:15 <hppavilion[1]> ("Non-Euclidean Vector" seems like it would be a better term for it, but that could easily be interpreted as "a vector which is not a Euclidean vector")
21:55:36 <shachaf> What sort of vector space is it?
21:55:40 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, "Euclidean space" is a real thing, right? I didn't conflate it with some other last name?
21:55:49 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah
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21:57:57 <hppavilion[1]> OK, from wikipedia: "In geometry, Euclidean space encompasses the two-dimensional euclidean plane, the three-dimensional space of Euclidean geometry, and certain other spaces". Non-euclidean space would encompass the equivalents for non-Euclidean geometry.
21:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...to be clear, the "Euclidean" in "Euclidean vector" specifically indicates that it's in Euclidean space, right? I assumed it did, but it might not...
21:59:13 <shachaf> "space" can have lots of meaning.
21:59:31 <shachaf> You can give Euclidean space lots of different structure, such as a vector space or a topological space.
21:59:50 <shachaf> But I don't know what a non-Euclidean finite-dimensional vector space over R would be.
22:00:01 <shachaf> (Because every finite-dimensional vector space over R is Euclidean.)
22:00:55 <shachaf> (Well, depending on what Euclidean means.)
22:01:03 <shachaf> (Which is why I don't know what it means.)
22:01:20 <shachaf> I don't even know.
22:01:40 <shachaf> I guess that's not true.
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22:25:16 <^v> https://i.pxtst.com/99f5d.png
22:25:16 <^v> https://i.pxtst.com/49734.png
22:25:16 <^v> https://i.pxtst.com/20310.png
22:25:16 <^v> https://i.pxtst.com/fcb40.png
22:25:24 <^v> (no spam, pls dont ban)
22:26:14 <^v> its slides from my vid
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22:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> A few weeks ago, we were talking about harm(onic plus)/Parallel Sum
22:50:50 <myname> 8
22:50:52 <myname> gna
22:52:44 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if there's an equivalent to the hyperoperations for it (Normally, H(1, a, b) = a+b; this is R(1, a, b) = a(+)b)
22:57:56 <Taneb> Almost all real numbers are transcendental, right?
22:58:19 <shachaf> Yes.
22:58:31 <shachaf> There are only countably many algebraic numbers.
23:00:20 <Taneb> Are there any commonly used proper subsets of the transcendental numbers such that almost all real numbers are in that subset?
23:01:03 <myname> R\Q?
23:01:28 <shachaf> That's a superset.
23:01:30 <Taneb> myname, that's a superset of the transcendental numbers, unless I am horribly confused
23:01:39 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Yes, I believe so
23:01:40 <shachaf> I don't know, uncomputable numbers?
23:01:47 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Almost none are... cedental?
23:01:52 <myname> ah
23:01:59 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], algebraic is the word I think
23:02:04 <Taneb> shachaf, ooh, that's a good one
23:02:04 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Ah, thank you
23:02:36 <hppavilion[1]> How do dictionaries in languages like French where words have several forms tend to work? Do they sort the words and provide all 4 forms?
23:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> (But then do they sort it by masculine or feminine form? Or do they include both, thus making the dictionary have up to twice as many entries)
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23:05:31 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you looking for the "smallest" commonly-used set whose complement is countable?
23:05:59 <shachaf> Cocountable, that's the word.
23:06:20 <Taneb> shachaf, I guess?
23:06:54 <shachaf> "undefinable" is a subset of uncomputable, I guess.
23:07:18 <Taneb> shachaf, can you give an example of an undefinable number?
23:07:24 <ais523> like that language I reviewed recently which had a program that halted if and only if it didn't halt?
23:07:32 <ais523> that's a computational class above uncomputable
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23:07:39 <ais523> I guess you could call it paradoxical
23:07:56 <ais523> (like, it's above the entire uncomputable hierarchy)
23:08:38 <ais523> I guess you can make a correspondence between uncomputable languages and infinities; you can't predict what an uncomputable language will do even with unlimited time, and infinites are larger than any finite number
23:08:55 <ais523> and just like some infinities are "larger" than others, some uncomputable languages can analyse others
23:09:09 <wob_jonas> hi, ais523
23:09:12 <Taneb> ais523, a program that halts if and only if it doesn't halt feels perversely related to a quine
23:09:13 <ais523> but "larger" than any infinity would be a number that's greater than itself (as opposed to merely being larger than /other/ numbers)
23:09:17 <wob_jonas> `? ayacc
23:09:25 <ais523> Taneb: you use the same techniques to make them as you do to make quines
23:09:33 <HackEgo> ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
23:09:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: ^ that's the current location for ayacc, right? it's not apparently mentioned on the websiute
23:09:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, I need to move it at some point
23:10:06 <wob_jonas> you could create a short page on the website that tells this stuff
23:10:08 <ais523> as that page should logically be a web page describing ayacc, rather than a repository
23:10:45 <shachaf> `? tanebventions: math
23:10:47 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
23:11:05 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Please define "smallest", "commonly-used", what the complement is relative to, "looking", and how a set can be a "who" :P
23:11:09 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions: math//s#loc#the long line, &#
23:11:13 <HackEgo> tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, the long line, locales, and histograms.
23:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> (god the inanimate whose bugs me... it just sounds wrong...)
23:11:37 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I anthropomorphise that which none else can
23:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: coconutable?
23:12:35 <Taneb> ...also do the cocountable sets form a topology like the cofinite sets do?
23:14:57 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocountable_topology hth
23:15:12 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], by smallest I mean a minimal element in the poset (or is this a proper poclass?) of cocountable sets
23:15:28 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], the complement is relative to the real numbers
23:15:57 <Taneb> By "I am looking for X" I mean "I am curious about how X is defined"
23:16:12 <shachaf> Taneb: the long line is pretty good, thanks for inventing it
23:16:17 <Taneb> By "commonly used" I probably mean "Has a cool name and a Wikipedia page"
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23:17:06 <shachaf> Taneb: You're just talking about subsets of the reals, right?
23:17:10 <shachaf> So just a poset.
23:17:11 <Taneb> shachaf, yes
23:17:40 <Taneb> Yeah, it would be, wouldn't it
23:18:00 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PO-class
23:18:18 <shachaf> `? yugoslavia
23:18:22 <HackEgo> yugoslavia? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:22:19 <shachaf> @google largest countable subset of the real
23:22:20 <lambdabot> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-set-of-real-numbers-that-can-be-defined-by-a-finite-definition-lets-call-them-the-definable-reals-is-the-largest-possible-countable-subset-of-the-real-
23:22:20 <lambdabot> numbers
23:22:28 <shachaf> what a scow url tdnh
23:23:35 <Taneb> My instinct is "Either that is the reals or it is not the largest possible countable subset of the reals"
23:24:04 <shachaf> It's certainly not the reals.
23:24:09 <Taneb> Well then
23:24:17 <shachaf> And it's not the largest countable subset of the reals either.
23:24:35 <shachaf> For example you can add any countable number of reals to it.
23:24:57 <Taneb> That's... that's a simpler proof than mine
23:25:29 <Taneb> Although the way I would have done it gets you a field
23:25:35 <Taneb> (I believe the definable numbers form a field?)
23:26:21 <shachaf> did you just tanebvent something
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23:26:30 <Taneb> I don't think so
23:26:52 <Taneb> If I have I haven't named it
23:27:08 <shachaf> Well, only a countable number of tanebventions are nameable.
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23:30:17 <shachaf> did Taneb invent Count von Count
23:30:29 <Taneb> You can count on it
23:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, assuming finitary tanebvention names of course
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23:36:06 <oerjan> `le/rn Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
23:36:10 <HackEgo> No output.
23:36:15 <oerjan> @messages-
23:36:15 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 39m 32s ago: hellørjan. only slightly. as the proverb says, "trust me, I'm an engineer".
23:36:17 <oerjan> oops
23:36:22 <oerjan> `learn Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
23:36:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'dragon': Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
23:39:38 <Taneb> oerjan, did you know dragons work in base -1 plus or minus i
23:39:52 <oerjan> nope!
23:42:12 <Taneb> (if you plot the numbers representable in a fixed number of bits in base -1 plus or minus i on an Argand diagram, you get the twin dragon fractal)
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23:44:35 <oerjan> "The complex plane is sometimes called the Argand plane because it is used in Argand diagrams." and then no explanation of what they are, despite the term redirecting there.
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23:45:38 <Taneb> An Argand diagram is just a 2D plot of complex numbers where the real component is the x axis and the imaginary component the y axis
23:45:48 <moonheart08> ^
23:46:07 <Taneb> You can view it as a linear transformation from C as an R-vector space to R^2
23:46:11 <moonheart08> @messages_loud
23:46:11 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 36m 31s ago: moonhellort08.
23:46:11 <oerjan> Taneb: i think i'd have understood you easier if you had just said "complex plane" then.
23:46:24 <moonheart08> ??
23:46:37 <Taneb> oerjan, sorry
23:47:11 <oerjan> moonheart08: boily is a bit annoyed at your changing nick, so he @telloed all of them hth
23:47:56 <moonheart08> olol
23:48:35 <oerjan> it makes @tell rather useless when you don't know what nick to use...
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23:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Cro wouldn't happen to be the German equivalent of Justin Bieber or something, would he?
23:54:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Boeing makes very complex planes
23:56:53 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's cute how you assume i have the slightest idea about pop culture
23:57:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Excellent, just as planned.
23:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, is this limited to 'murican pop culture- you could answer given context- or is it any pop culture at all?)
23:57:54 <myname> the second part
2016-11-03
00:00:15 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Tanebirthday.
00:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going through a comment I'm composing and putting ZWSPs between all the ligaturable characters (e.g. fi) >:)
00:01:42 <Tanebirthday> That's...
00:01:50 <Tanebirthday> That's semantically inaccurate!
00:02:01 <shachaf> happy Taneb++
00:02:24 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:02:26 <Tanebirthday> assert(Taneb.age == 22);
00:03:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
00:03:46 * oerjan fixes the wp article
00:04:10 <shachaf> there's an article about Taneb?
00:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, is it Tanebirthday's- wait, nickchange. So probably
00:04:31 <ais523> shachaf: well he's invented so many important things, why wouldn't there be?
00:04:34 <hppavilion[1]> Tanebirthday: Happy assemblyday!
00:04:59 <shachaf> What important things did Taneb invent?
00:05:34 <ais523> `? Tanebventions
00:05:36 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], third of November Greenwich Mean Time, every year since 1994
00:05:40 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:05:47 <ais523> the universe is fairly important
00:06:24 <oerjan> Tanebirthday: ooh happy birthday
00:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> and involves rather a lot of sex, i believe
00:06:48 <oerjan> shachaf: no, about complex planes, which should contain a definition of Argand diagram hth
00:07:34 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: The universe is indiscreet, too.
00:07:52 <shachaf> citation: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.434.9777
00:07:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it was probably added after he invented it by some sneaky marketing department
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but sex makes up less than 12 ppb, so it's within acceptable bounds
00:08:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, or that
00:08:22 <ais523> now I'm wondering why you'd want to market the universe and what the marketing slogan would be
00:08:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> if god did not exist it would become necessary for taneb to invent him
00:08:47 <oerjan> The Universe: More of Everything!
00:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: You need a lot of boilerplate to be able to say "let there be light" from the get-go, rather than having to define what light is, then what a photon is, then what a particle is, then trying to explain "stuff"
00:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> `? tanebventions: math
00:09:29 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, the long line, locales, and histograms.
00:09:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: So the universe comes with a lot of features pre-assembled
00:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> should that not be 'maths'
00:09:35 <ais523> oerjan: I like that :-)
00:09:35 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], light is in the standard library
00:10:02 <Tanebirthday> Phantom_Hoover, I'm in favour of "maths" but have never edited that wisdom entry as far as I recall
00:10:15 <shachaf> `dowt tanebventions: math
00:10:24 <hppavilion[1]> Tanebirthday: Yes, exactly.
00:10:29 <HackEgo> 8511:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/tanebvention{,s}": math" \ 8544:2016-06-20 <shachäf> slwd tanebventions: math//s#the reals#Klein bottles, the reals# \ 8819:2016-07-15 <shachäf> slwd tanebventions: math//s/ p/the Hodge star operator, p/ \ 8820:2016-07-15 <shachäf> slwd tanebventions: math//s/,t/, t/ \ 8966:2016-08-22 <shachäf> slwd ta
00:10:39 <shachaf> `dowt tanebvention: math
00:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> `` mv "wisdom/tanebventions: math" "tanebventions: maths"
00:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> SOMEBODY had to make the standard library.
00:10:45 <shachaf> `revert
00:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck
00:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> `` mv "wisdom/tanebventions: math" "wisdom/tanebventions: maths"
00:11:05 <shachaf> can you stop please
00:11:08 <HackEgo> No output.
00:11:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:11:16 <HackEgo> 8510:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/tanebvention{"s (math)",": math"} \ 8511:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/tanebvention{,s}": math"
00:11:19 <HackEgo> No output.
00:11:20 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: It used to be "Tanebventions (maths)", but it was renamed to "Tanebvention: math" so it would work both ways.
00:11:35 <shachaf> `revert
00:11:37 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:12:02 <Tanebirthday> Tanebventions: mathses
00:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i'll stop when the file is moved and not before
00:12:06 <shachaf> `` ls wisdom/*nebven*
00:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> Do british people ever say "math"? What does the singular of "maths" mean?
00:12:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention \ wisdom/tanebventions: math \ wisdom/tanebventory
00:12:17 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: This is the right name for the file.
00:12:20 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], what's a mathematic
00:12:20 <hppavilion[1]> Tanebirthday: mathen? mathi? mathæ?
00:12:23 <shachaf> `? tanebventions: maths
00:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> no it isn't
00:12:26 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, the long line, locales, and histograms.
00:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> Tanebirthday: That's the question
00:12:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Enoua5 * New user account
00:12:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: "maths" is a contraction of "math[ematic]s"; "math" would therefore be a contraction of "mathematic", which is not a real word
00:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ah well
00:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: YET
00:12:55 <ais523> we don't use "math" just like we don't use "mathematic"
00:12:57 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> should that not be 'maths' <-- this way you can look it up with both terms
00:13:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood).
00:13:17 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], I never say "math" except when I'm being silly and disparaging someone for specialising too much
00:13:20 <Phantom_Hoover> someone sed 'math' to 'maths' in the entry then
00:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, right, searching for a thing with -s at the end also searches for one without
00:13:30 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
00:13:31 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:13:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd do it myself but shachaf would doubtless complain
00:13:49 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s#math#maths#
00:13:51 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:13:54 <shachaf> That's quite legitimate.
00:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Um, if that were actually mathsy, you would now have "See also tanebventions: mathssssssssss..."
00:14:34 <hppavilion[1]> (Don't question it. I know it's wrong.)
00:14:40 <hppavilion[1]> (-ish)
00:14:48 <shachaf> ais523: In my usage, e.g. algebra is a math, and topology is a math. If you're studying maths, you're probably studying more than one math.
00:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, could Taneb have invented the f-word? On one hand, it often means sex, but on the other, it also means other stuff a LOT of the time, and it's a very versatile word
00:15:11 <ais523> now I'm wondering what the lowest number of substitutions is necessary for Thue to be Turing-complete / curly-L-complete
00:15:32 <ais523> shachaf: so "mathematic" = "field of mathematics"?
00:15:42 <Tanebirthday> shachaf, I can get behind that
00:15:42 <ais523> that isn't entirely illogical, although it also doesn't fit with UK usage
00:16:09 <Tanebirthday> Then again, I pronounce "finite" such that it rhymes with "infinite" and "definite"
00:16:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
00:17:03 <shachaf> ais523: I guess smaller mathematical things could be maths as well.
00:17:08 <shachaf> Is a theorem a math?
00:17:29 <hppavilion[1]> It can be a noun, a verb, an adjective, an adverb, an exclamation (of course). It can probably also be a pronoun, and I'dn't be surprised if it was a perfectly valid preposition, conjunction, article, determiner, and numeral as well.
00:17:37 <Tanebirthday> shachaf, is non-commutative topology, for example
00:17:52 <Tanebirthday> shachaf, or algebraic geometry
00:18:47 <shachaf> Are D-modules a math?
00:18:52 <Tanebirthday> I don't think so
00:18:55 <Tanebirthday> They are many maths
00:18:56 <shachaf> Or is each D-module a math, so D-modules are maths?
00:19:25 <hppavilion[1]> (And proverb and proadjective (projective?) and prodeterminer and postposition (and adposition if adposition \ (preposition U postpostion) != {}) and proprepo...)
00:19:38 <shachaf> The main goal of my usage is to be incompatible with both US and UK usage, and therefore be neutral.
00:19:38 <Tanebirthday> I think the study of D-modules is a math
00:19:48 <Tanebirthday> shachaf, how contrarian!
00:20:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, that was more hostile than it needed to be.
00:20:51 <shachaf> I was in the middle of writing out an explanation for the way it was, which you didn't know. But it made it frustrating that you were making changes while I was doing it.
00:21:14 <hppavilion[1]> I just learned yon and yonder were like "this" and "that". I am now sad.
00:21:34 <shachaf> But I don't know why people say say "math" is an abbreviation for "mathematic".
00:21:40 <shachaf> "mathematic" isn't a word as far as I know.
00:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> Though "yon/yonder" was probably historically "þon/þonder", modernly "thon/thonder"
00:21:54 <shachaf> In US usage it's an abbreviation for "mathematics", which is not plural, by the way.
00:22:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: In US (aka "real") english, mathematics is dual. hth.
00:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> (Its members are (1) taxes and (2) that stuff weirdos do)
00:24:53 <Tanebirthday> shachaf, "mathematic" is in the OED
00:25:33 <ais523> do we have a word definition/properties thing in HackEgo somewhere?
00:25:46 <ais523> I vaguely remember seeing a dictionary in this channel but it might have been fizzie
00:26:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50072&oldid=50070 * Enoua5 * (+174) /* Introductions */
00:26:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50073 * Enoua5 * (+78) Created page with "Hello, my beautiful world! I am a programmer, song writer, and furry. KTHXBYE"
00:27:49 <shachaf> lambdabot has @wn
00:27:52 <shachaf> And some other dictionaries.
00:27:53 <shachaf> @list wn
00:27:53 <lambdabot> dict provides: dict-help all-dicts bouvier cide devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon thesaurus vera wn world02
00:28:12 <shachaf> @devils potable
00:28:12 <Tanebirthday> @wn mathematic
00:28:14 <lambdabot> *** "potable" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
00:28:14 <lambdabot> POTABLE, n. Suitable for drinking. Water is said to be potable;
00:28:14 <lambdabot> indeed, some declare it our natural beverage, although even they find
00:28:14 <lambdabot> it palatable only when suffering from the recurrent disorder known as
00:28:14 <lambdabot> thirst, for which it is a medicine. Upon nothing has so great and
00:28:16 <lambdabot> [6 @more lines]
00:28:18 <lambdabot> No match for "mathematic".
00:28:20 <shachaf> @more
00:28:20 <Tanebirthday> :(
00:28:45 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Though "yon/yonder" was probably historically "þon/þonder", modernly "thon/thonder" <-- nope, cognate to german "jener" and norwegian "hin" hth
00:29:06 <shachaf> is "hth" norwegian
00:29:23 <oerjan> (also apparently to latin "idem")
00:29:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...Yermans historically pronounced "j" as "th" hth. Also, male seahorses have the baby.
00:29:36 <hppavilion[1]> This is all true stuff that I didn't make up to not look bad.
00:30:21 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:30:37 <FireFly> german historically pronouncing j as þ would be super weird
00:30:52 <Tanebirthday> Jirejly
00:31:19 <Tanebirthday> I'm going to go to bed now, goodnight!
00:32:00 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] for etymofraud -----###
00:32:36 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I think you have "þ" and "f" confused hth
00:32:47 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], that's entirely on me
00:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> s/FireFly/Tanebirthday/
00:33:07 <Tanebirthday> And I know people who genuinely cannot pronounce them differently
00:33:18 <hppavilion[1]> Tanebirthday: Yes it is. Unless it's a thoke about how Thermans can't make a 'th' sound...
00:33:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50074 * Enoua5 * (+52) Creation; will move documentation here
00:33:47 <oerjan> Tanebirthday: on the plus side no:matematikk and de:Mathematik and neither even has a plural hth
00:36:14 <shachaf> Tanebirthday: my guess for who's slightly older today is: oerjan
00:36:28 <FireFly> Janeb
00:36:30 <Tanebirthday> oerjan, happy birthday
00:36:39 <FireFly> Tanebirthday: wait, f and þ, or f and j?
00:36:47 <FireFly> because in the latter case I'd be a bit concerned
00:37:03 -!- GeekDude has left ("WeeChat 1.4").
00:37:04 <Tanebirthday> FireFly, I was making a joke about hppavilion[1]'s f and j statement
00:37:10 <FireFly> o
00:37:25 <shachaf> Tanebirthday: whoa whoa whoa, no one said anything about birthdays
00:37:27 <shachaf> other than you
00:37:34 <shachaf> and i guess a few other people in here
00:37:38 <Tanebirthday> shachaf, happy birthday
00:37:51 <ais523> aren't /all/ of us slightly older than we were yesterday?
00:38:02 <ais523> (possibly some of us are also slightly wiser, although that's much less certain)
00:38:28 <shachaf> Yes.
00:38:43 <shachaf> Though I guess Taneb never said "than yesterday".
00:38:53 <shachaf> Maybe Taneb is slightly older than he will be tomorrow?
00:38:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, bodily aging is all stored up and released in a single burst once every 365 days (except every 4th cycle when it's 366, except on the 100ths, except on the 400ths.)
00:43:13 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], shachaf is closer
00:43:20 <Tanebirthday> I'm approximately but not quite unaging
00:43:36 <Tanebirthday> Today I am slightly older than I was yesterday and also than I will be tomorrow
00:44:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: how does that work for people born on February 29 twh
00:45:32 <oerjan> Tanebirthday: local maximum eh?
00:45:37 -!- moony has joined.
00:45:52 <shachaf> oerjan: a paradox / a paradox / a most ingenious paradox
00:45:54 <Tanebirthday> oerjan, possibly a global maximum!
00:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: current_year is only incremented on leap years; they grow a year older every 4 leap years, except every 100th, ...
00:46:00 <hppavilion[1]> hth
00:46:09 <oerjan> fancy
00:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> (But they also tend to have lifespans about a fifth the length of a normal person)
00:46:30 <oerjan> wait, fifth?
00:46:52 -!- moonheart08 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:47:09 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, it's because they drink so much hth
00:47:10 <oerjan> this sounds unfair. only one in four birthdays _and_ live shorter overall
00:47:38 <oerjan> well, life isn't fair has been well established.
00:49:54 <oerjan> http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl <-- dammit only now i realize the pun...
00:50:09 <oerjan> (defunct link)
00:50:17 <shachaf> what's the pun
00:50:33 <oerjan> shachaf: alex/ayacc hth
00:50:58 <shachaf> oh
00:51:23 <shachaf> this isn't related to the haskell alex
00:52:47 <oerjan> doubtful. although i don't remember if ais523 made an alex program too...
00:53:14 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't, although I was planning to
00:54:02 <shachaf> `? ais523
00:54:05 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
00:54:38 <shachaf> We haven't seen scarf or callforjudgement in quite a while.
00:54:48 <oerjan> i've seen callforjudgement
00:55:01 <oerjan> although briefly, due to a mistyping
00:55:25 <oerjan> or mistouchpadding iirc
00:58:56 -!- moony has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:59:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50075&oldid=50074 * Enoua5 * (+7995) add documentation
01:01:08 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: this is one no one uses `learn hth <-- seriously, that's like one of the oldest `learn features hth
01:01:28 <shachaf> `dowt MIPS
01:01:30 <HackEgo> No output.
01:01:33 <shachaf> `dowt mips
01:01:35 <HackEgo> 4033:2013-11-20 <boil̈y> learn MIPS Is Popular In Schools. \ 4034:2013-11-20 <oerjän> learn MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
01:01:42 <shachaf> oerjan: how come it didn't happen there tdnh
01:02:00 <oerjan> well it hasn't _always_ been there.
01:02:12 <oerjan> but i think it's definitely older than the article removal.
01:02:15 <shachaf> the point is that `learn is unpredictable
01:02:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50076&oldid=50075 * Enoua5 * (+81)
01:03:56 <oerjan> i think that does the right thing more often than not, although of course there would be misfires either way.
01:03:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50077&oldid=50073 * Enoua5 * (+37)
01:04:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50078&oldid=50077 * Enoua5 * (-9)
01:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50079&oldid=50076 * Enoua5 * (+31)
01:04:38 <oerjan> erm. helps more often than it hurts.
01:05:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50080&oldid=50079 * Enoua5 * (-19)
01:05:28 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:05:41 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, the new user is a furry.
01:05:44 <hppavilion[1]> ...I make no comment.
01:05:51 <oerjan> you just did hth
01:06:32 * oerjan reads at least two furry comics, although one is strongly implied to have been accidental.
01:07:21 <oerjan> or well
01:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Enoua5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50081 * Hppavilion1 * (+340) Heeeelp... meeeee...
01:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50082&oldid=50004 * Enoua5 * (+14) Added Factory
01:07:54 <oerjan> accidental that it's now _only_ furries. it gradually became that way because the author couldn't draw humans.
01:08:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's totally justified.
01:08:12 <oerjan> (The Whiteboard)
01:08:33 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( If Enoua5 joins, I'm going to pretend to be a bot )
01:09:08 <oerjan> . o O ( then i can pretend to kick hppavilion[1] for botspam )
01:09:32 -!- enoua5 has joined.
01:09:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: My prefix is ⁂ if anybody asks.
01:09:53 <enoua5> Hello, not automated message!
01:09:58 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit xD
01:10:15 <wob_jonas> hpp: prefix of what?
01:10:16 <enoua5> XD yes?
01:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> I was planning on pretending to be a bot when you joined, then you joined just as I sent an obviously not-botty message
01:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> enoua5: But welcome to the channel!
01:11:14 <enoua5> even though i gotta go. like now ._. .. gubye!
01:11:25 -!- enoua5 has quit (Client Quit).
01:13:02 <oerjan> the other comic is of course Freefall, which really has only one furry (ok maybe two now), but seems to be more connected to the actual furry community if the links on the page are any guidance.
01:14:02 <oerjan> hm does Girl Genius count, with the jägers and Krosp
01:14:22 <FireFly> I don't think that counts as "furry"
01:14:33 <oerjan> why not?
01:14:34 <FireFly> more than "humanoid but non-human characters"
01:14:40 <oerjan> well maybe
01:14:54 * oerjan isn't sure of the difference
01:15:23 <oerjan> they're canonically modified humans btw
01:15:32 <oerjan> (not Krosp)
01:15:35 <FireFly> Hm, I suppose so yeah
01:15:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...Krosp?
01:15:41 <FireFly> I forget who Krosp is
01:15:52 <oerjan> the talking cat
01:15:58 <FireFly> oh him
01:16:00 <FireFly> I love him
01:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> You know what'd be fun? Alien furries. Not, like, furries that look like (or officially are) aliens. Aliens who are furries regarding whatever other creatures live on their planet.
01:17:04 <oerjan> `unidecode ⁂
01:17:05 <HackEgo> ​[U+2042 ASTERISM]
01:19:03 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
01:19:22 <oerjan> hm i guess YAFGC also have some furry characters. and lots of humanoid non-humans.
01:19:26 <oerjan> *has
01:22:59 <hppavilion[1]> *had
01:23:03 * hppavilion[1] is afk
01:23:21 <fizzie> Today, someone thought my Befunge shirt was Perl. Can you imagine?
01:23:37 <oerjan> shocking
01:23:41 -!- olsner has joined.
01:23:50 <fizzie> Not that a Befunge/Perl polyglot would probably be particularly difficult to do.
01:23:55 <oerjan> how dare they imply befunge is unreadable
01:24:18 <fizzie> Yes, it's clearly a slight towards at least one of the languages.
01:24:20 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's a trivial combination
01:24:53 <fizzie> An INTERCAL fan was also present.
01:24:58 <ais523> a fun question is to consider what the first non-whitespace character would be in a maximum-number-of-languages polyglot
01:25:01 <ais523> I'm guessing # but not sure
01:25:10 <fizzie> (I don't know if they've done anything notable with it, but they mentioned it as their favourite esolang.)
01:25:38 <oerjan> hm increased polyglot challenge: make a polyglot where no character ignored in one language is used in the other
01:27:40 <ais523> what's the definition of "ignored" here?
01:27:49 <ais523> polyglots often place the code for one language inside a string literal in the other
01:27:55 <oerjan> that's the hard part i guess
01:27:58 <ais523> and then don't do anything very interesting with the string
01:28:11 <ais523> but you could, say, write a loop that checksums it or the like, if you want the content to matter
01:28:14 <shachaf> you need a linear type system for each language hth
01:29:12 <ais523> relevant, surely?
01:29:17 <ais523> or are you banning copying data too?
01:29:21 -!- enoua5 has joined.
01:29:34 <enoua5> Hello!
01:29:37 <oerjan> oh right checksums...
01:29:49 <oerjan> this gets really tricky to define then.
01:30:03 <FireFly> just use the sum modulo 2
01:30:27 <FireFly> but yeah, sounds tricky
01:30:37 <ais523> hi enoua5
01:31:03 <enoua5> *waves*
01:31:15 <ais523> oerjan: based on my thoughts about videogame polyglots, I think it'd be most interesing if the two programs did the same thing using the same algorithm
01:31:28 <ais523> and the same parts of the algorithm were implemented by the same part of the code
01:31:31 <oerjan> `relcome enoua5
01:31:34 <HackEgo> enoua5: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:32:27 <enoua5> I just uploaded an esolang I created, if anyone wants to look at that!
01:32:50 <ais523> I was looking at it already
01:33:00 <ais523> my first thought was "oh wow, this might actually be interesting"
01:33:11 <ais523> (a lot of new users just do trivial/pointless brainfuck derivatives)
01:33:43 <enoua5> Really? Thanks!
01:34:40 <ais523> it's TC
01:35:22 <enoua5> tc?
01:35:30 <ais523> actually if you start with a couple of zero bits in storage (I think you need at least two), it's TC with just production and storage, not needing the other rooms
01:35:34 <ais523> TC = Turing complete
01:35:54 <ais523> it's a computational power class, it basically expresses how good the language is at emulating other languages
01:35:55 <enoua5> oh, yes!
01:36:11 <ais523> languages in the same class can emulate each other, and languages can also emulate langauges in lower classes
01:36:30 <shachaf> I think a lot of people know what Turing completeness is who might not know the abbreviation "TC".
01:36:37 <ais523> yes, I know
01:36:48 <ais523> I just got a little carried away and decided to define Turing completeness anyway
01:37:13 <enoua5> so, what do you mean by having the couple in storage?
01:37:29 <ais523> like, your storage spaces start empty, right?
01:37:33 <enoua5> yes.
01:37:45 <enoua5> how would this replace some rooms?
01:37:46 <ais523> if I start with a zero bit on one of them (actually one is enough because you can change what the production is producing)
01:38:00 <ais523> then that gives enough power just in production and storage to do any computation
01:38:29 <ais523> the idea is that you can use the storage space to implement a Minsky machine
01:38:56 <ais523> two storage spaces for the two counters you need (you put a 0 at the bottom and 1s above it)
01:39:09 <ais523> and one as a bitbucket for storing unwanted bits
01:39:29 <enoua5> *looks that up* oh, wow! yeah, there a few things i added just to be a little nicer
01:39:31 <ais523> (you could also drop the unwanted bits into production, I guess, so long as you kept a known bit around to set it back to the value you wanted)
01:39:47 <ais523> your extra tools will make the language much more usable
01:39:54 <ais523> there's a tradeoff between being usable and having a minimum of commands
01:40:05 <ais523> btw, you might want to put your language in categories so that people will see it
01:40:10 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization
01:40:20 <ais523> and edit it onto the language list
01:40:34 <ais523> if a language is on an unlinked page like that, it has a tendency to get lost and forgotten about
01:41:03 <enoua5> i put it onto the list already, i'll go look at catagories
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01:46:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50083&oldid=50080 * Enoua5 * (+119)
01:47:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50084&oldid=50083 * Enoua5 * (-2) /* Categories */
01:49:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50085&oldid=50084 * Ais523 * (-21) /* Categories */ make this into actual category inclusions, rather than category mentions, by unescaping it
01:49:58 <shachaf> What's a category inclusion? A faithful functor?
01:50:32 <ais523> in MediaWiki, it's rather less interesting than that :-P
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01:50:53 <enoua5> Alright, it's catagorized!
01:52:07 <enoua5> It seems i did it wrong and someone fixed it. thanks to whoever that person was!
01:53:06 <enoua5> *looks at the history* thanks, Ais523!
01:53:28 <ais523> : is an escape character in MediaWiki
01:53:45 <ais523> so [[Category:Languages]] uses the Languages category, whereas [[:Category:Languages]] merely mentions it (in this case, a link)
01:53:58 <ais523> we don't want Esolang:Categorization to be in the categories itself, so we escape
01:54:10 <ais523> but on language pages we do want them to be in the category normally
01:54:54 <enoua5> Ah, ok, i see. that makes sense.
01:55:29 <enoua5> Thanks for your help! I hope Factory will do good here.
01:55:36 <enoua5> I've got to go
01:55:52 <ais523> my guess is nothing much will happen in a while, then someone will use it on a "guess the language" puzzle on PPCG
01:55:55 <ais523> bye :-)
01:56:47 <shachaf> I am the very model of a Turing halting oracle, / I've information esoteric-wiki categorical
01:58:16 <shachaf> If you have linear types, can you have a halting oracle that uses up its argument?
01:58:33 <shachaf> So you can either know whether something halts, or you can run it, but not both.
01:58:59 <shachaf> I mean, can you implement it.
01:59:28 <ais523> you mean can you implement a halting oracle for a linear language in itself, whilst keeping the language sub-Turing?
01:59:39 <ais523> (note that it clearly has to be /sub/-Turing to work)
01:59:49 <shachaf> The usual proof about the halting problem depends on being able to duplicate things.
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02:00:12 <shachaf> Maybe that's what I mean. Of course if you can implement it it's not really an oracle.
02:00:50 <ais523> well, you need restrctions on the language to make the problem interesting
02:00:54 <shachaf> Right.
02:00:56 <ais523> you can add a halting oracle for Deadfish in Deadfish
02:01:00 <ais523> without any real issues
02:01:31 <shachaf> Or maybe the language itself is Turing-complete, but the oracle is external to the language, but adding it doesn't make the language super-Turing.
02:01:42 <shachaf> Then again, I don't like Turing completeness, I'd rather avoid it if possible.
02:01:44 <ais523> because Deadfish programs always halt and the existence of a halting oracle won't help
02:02:01 <ais523> shachaf: well, being able to halting-oracle arbitrary TC programs would be kind-of revolutionary
02:02:20 <shachaf> Well, the "programs" would have to be something other than data.
02:02:28 <shachaf> Because data is freely duplicatable.
02:03:10 <pikhq> ais523: That's putting it likely.
02:03:12 <pikhq> *lightly
02:03:36 <shachaf> ais523: It's not revolutionary, it's the point of an oracle.
02:03:45 <shachaf> Being able to implement it in the language would be revolutionary.
02:04:13 <ais523> so we're basically talking about a language which has access to an oracle for itself, but some restriction that prevents it using it to gain more computational power
02:04:32 <shachaf> Right, that's one of the options that might be interesting.
02:04:33 <ais523> that's fairly easy to do if, say, the language is defined to immediately go into an infinite loop if the oracle says "doesn't halt"
02:04:44 <ais523> (you can actually implement this without an oracle, too :-P)
02:05:02 <ais523> I'm reminded of http://esolangs.org/wiki/WUUI although it isn't exactly what you're looking for
02:06:33 <ais523> come to think of it, a naive impl of that language may have a slower computational complexity than any other language on Esolang
02:06:43 <ais523> possibly including the ones that require brute-forcing hashes
02:06:54 <ais523> (arguably those are O(1), for sufficiently large values of 1)
02:07:11 <shachaf> What if the hash length is a function of the program length?
02:07:59 <ais523> I don't think we have any of those yet
02:08:14 <oerjan> . o O ( does oracle really rhyme with categorical )
02:08:34 <shachaf> oerjan: i looked it up in a rhyming dictionary hth
02:09:06 <ais523> oerjan: it does if you interpret the last two vowels as ə
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02:09:26 <ais523> I don't, but it's close enough that you could pronounce it that way and people would understand the words
02:12:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50086&oldid=50078 * Enoua5 * (+108)
02:12:11 <shachaf> i am the very model of a modern rhyming nitpicker / i've information more pedantic, more arcane, and crypticer
02:13:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50087&oldid=50086 * Enoua5 * (+42)
02:13:50 <enoua5> I should probably use the preview button more often
02:14:42 <shachaf> oerjan: some people might object to rhyming "mineral" and "general" hth
02:15:04 <enoua5> 'gineral'
02:15:11 <oerjan> shachaf: only a whiner-all hth
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02:16:06 <shachaf> oerjan: aren't you going to nitpick that rhyme twh
02:16:06 <ais523> shachaf: I actually learned the rules of poetry from a book
02:16:20 <oerjan> enoua5: now, now, let's not joke about their drinking problems
02:16:22 <shachaf> Which book?
02:16:30 <ais523> "mineral" and "general" would need to match everything from the first vowel onwards to rhyme, and they don't
02:16:36 <ais523> and I can't remember, it was ages ago
02:16:41 <shachaf> Because the stress is on that syllable?
02:16:56 <shachaf> I figured out that rule but it took me a while.
02:17:08 <shachaf> Fortunately I'm capable of rhyming even without knowing the rules.
02:17:51 <oerjan> `learn_append shachaf He is capable of rhyming even without knowing the rules.
02:18:33 <ais523> shachaf: specifically, you take the last syllable that has a reasonable amount of stress
02:18:38 <ais523> and have to rhyme from its vowel onwards
02:18:46 <shachaf> I remember the first time I saw a poem in a book -- or maybe it was a song, they're the same word in Hebrew -- and I asked the person who was reading the book to me (or was I reading it and they were helping me?) how they knew it was a poem (or song).
02:18:52 <shachaf> And they said it was because it had short lines.
02:19:19 <ais523> well, "plainverse" is a poetry genre defined pretty much entirely by random linebreaks and no other restrictions
02:19:24 <shachaf> This book was probably _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_.
02:19:35 <ais523> but I'm not sure it really counts as poetry at that point
02:19:39 <ais523> "I will call him Mel,
02:19:43 <ais523> because that was his name."
02:19:45 <shachaf> ais523: Well, they didn't say it was a necessary condition.
02:19:55 * oerjan wonders if he mentioned that the russian word for "sings" is "поёт"
02:20:19 <oerjan> it does _not_, however, apply to poetry afaiu
02:21:03 <shachaf> what about poëtry
02:21:13 <oerjan> don't know
02:21:24 <shachaf> or поётрий
02:21:26 <oerjan> (although russians rarely write the ¨)
02:21:40 <ais523> technically it should be "poëtry" under English spelling rules
02:21:41 <shachaf> ё is pronounced "yo" if I remember correctly.
02:21:58 <ais523> we don't pronounce it "poh-tree"
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02:22:26 <ais523> but accents in English have pretty much died out, except sometimes in #esoteric as a joke (and in #esoteric they often aren't used correctly)
02:22:28 <enoua5> English has no spelling rules though
02:22:36 <ais523> they're more like guidelines
02:22:40 <shachaf> ais523: Also in the New Yorker.
02:23:11 <oerjan> shachaf: yep. [pɐˈjɵt]
02:23:13 <shachaf> I used to write "coördination" and so on but it's uncommon enough that I think it looks pretentious.
02:23:15 <ais523> English is the perfect natural language for this channel, really
02:23:28 <ais523> it's about the closest you can get to an esoteric natural langauge
02:23:45 <alercah> yeah
02:23:50 <ais523> shachaf: sometimes I write "noone" in protest
02:23:58 <alercah> and we dabble in Japanese occasionally, another excellent choice
02:24:00 <enoua5> Our little Frankenstein's monster of a lanuage
02:24:08 <ais523> (what is the correct spelling of that word, anyway?)
02:24:10 <shachaf> ais523: Depends on the class of esoteric language.
02:24:24 <ais523> maybe it's actually two words which is why I can't figure out how to spell it as one
02:24:47 <shachaf> Yes, it's two words.
02:24:54 <ais523> btw, what's the current status of "alright", is it a word yet?
02:24:56 <shachaf> For example English isn't like languages that try to be as simple as possible.
02:25:12 <ais523> a dictionary I owned when growing up specifically listed it as not a word
02:25:16 <shachaf> I don't like "alright". But maybe it's unavoidable.
02:25:16 <ais523> like, most nonwords aren't even in the dictionary
02:25:27 <shachaf> Have you finished growing up?
02:25:34 <ais523> that one, the dictionary felt compelled to add a specific note at its position in alphabetical order
02:25:38 <ais523> saying it wasn't a word
02:25:41 <ais523> shachaf: height-wise, yes
02:25:46 <ais523> in terms of maturity, who knows
02:28:12 <oerjan> thou shouldst always gette up before noone
02:29:03 <shachaf> What is the simplest human language?
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02:30:23 <ais523> baby language, I guess
02:30:30 <ais523> although that isn't normally very expressive
02:30:50 <ais523> many babies only use one word for everything, and just repeat it until an adult figures out what they mean by trial and error
02:31:06 <ais523> actually that sounds like an esolang
02:31:15 <ais523> it ignores the input program given, and does something random
02:31:19 <ais523> you run the program repeatedly until it does what you want
02:32:00 <enoua5> i like this idea
02:32:17 <oerjan> "American users (COCA) prefer the spelling no one to either noone or no-one by more than 500 to 1. UK users (BNC) prefer no-one to noone 50 to 1 and no one to noone 12 to 1."
02:32:28 <ais523> I'll create an article for it, it won't take long
02:32:32 <ais523> I guess it counts as a joke language
02:32:36 <enoua5> baby++
02:32:55 <oerjan> @karma baby
02:32:55 <lambdabot> baby has a karma of 1
02:32:59 <shachaf> I think most babies are more expressive than that.
02:33:19 <shachaf> Even when they're born? I guess I haven't been around many fresh babies.
02:33:26 <shachaf> Newborn babies. That's the word.
02:33:56 <enoua5> fresh babies! name the language that!
02:34:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50088&oldid=49640 * Ais523 * (+94) /* General languages */ +[[Baby Language]]
02:34:06 <oerjan> babies don't stay fresh long, i hear
02:34:18 <oerjan> they start smelling fast
02:35:29 <shachaf> ais523: Did you know the word "exoteric", meaning the opposite of esoteric?
02:35:31 <shachaf> @wn exoteric
02:35:33 <lambdabot> *** "exoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:35:33 <lambdabot> exoteric
02:35:33 <lambdabot> adj 1: suitable for the general public; "writings of an exoteric
02:35:33 <lambdabot> nature" [ant: {esoteric}]
02:35:49 <ais523> shachaf: yes, but I didn't realise we hadn't invented it ourself
02:36:25 <shachaf> Apparently the wiki uses the word "mainstream".
02:36:39 <shachaf> Well, I guess it doesn't use it to mean exactly that.
02:37:37 <shachaf> "Best Treatment of a Mainstream Programming Language as an Esoteric Programming Language"
02:38:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50089 * Ais523 * (+689) it's a simple enough idea, and I don't think we've done it yet… (anyone care to implement this? anyone brave enough to run it?)
02:39:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50090&oldid=50089 * Ais523 * (+11) I accidentally two words
02:40:14 <enoua5> so. is it required to create something that won't crash?
02:40:21 * oerjan is disappointed that there doesn't seem to be a whole class of -teric adjectives
02:40:22 <shachaf> It seems underspecified.
02:40:56 <shachaf> esoteric, exoteric, hysteric
02:41:39 <enoua5> Now I'm wondering how hard it would be to make a random valid exe generator
02:42:08 <oerjan> but "hysteric" isn't formed in a similar way
02:42:11 <ais523> it might be easier to generate random programs in a language where all programs are valid
02:42:25 <ais523> @wn endoteric
02:42:26 <lambdabot> No match for "endoteric".
02:42:38 <ais523> that would seem to fit the naming scheme, a pity it isn't actually a real word
02:42:46 <shachaf> Are there languages where all programs are valid, and there's also some notion of "continuity"?
02:42:52 <sirnaysayer> phallometric
02:43:00 <shachaf> So making a small change in the syntax makes a small change in the program.
02:43:06 <shachaf> I'm not sure what that would mean exactly.
02:43:47 <ais523> shachaf: well, the last time I tried to write a language where the programs were continuous functions with real-numbered inputs and outputs and so was memory
02:43:48 <ais523> I ended up getting sidetracked and inventing Three Star Programmer instead
02:44:02 <ais523> which reminds me, I need to get round to writing a compiler targeting 3SP some time
02:44:12 <ais523> I mostly gave up on the langauge after realising it was too easy
02:44:32 <ais523> and yet complex enough to make it bad as a tarpit
02:44:45 <shachaf> Is it TC?
02:45:02 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it is
02:45:08 <ais523> I'd worked out a way to implement cyclic tag in it I think
02:45:13 <ais523> not sure if I ever wrote it down
02:46:13 <ais523> oh right, just looking at the code to my impl
02:46:20 <ais523> and it uses a custom allocator because of course it does
02:46:49 <enoua5> Something a friend and I were wanting to do is make either make a language using mostly snowman or entirely characters from Unicode's Miscellaneous Symbols
02:47:18 <ais523> please don't fall into the trap of trying to assign a meaningful command to every codepoint in Unicode :-P
02:47:37 <ais523> and if you do, /definitely/ don't make a list of every character in your documentation, showing it as currently undefined/undecided
02:47:40 <enoua5> I'm not THAT crazy
02:47:49 <ais523> and if you have to do even that, /very definitely/ don't post it to the wiki
02:47:59 <ais523> (this has, sadly, happened before)
02:48:26 <shachaf> Why is it sad?
02:48:26 <pikhq> You could possibly come up with interesting semantics using Miscellaneous Symbols for kinda-mnemonic effect, at least.
02:48:32 <shachaf> Does the wiki have bad support for big pages?
02:49:23 <enoua5> Well, It's pointless to have all that meaningless information
02:49:51 <ais523> shachaf: the person in question was creating a huge numbre of pages
02:49:58 <shachaf> Oh.
02:50:01 <ais523> MediaWiki doesn't like very very large pages
02:50:04 <ais523> also it rather bloats the database dumps
02:50:05 <shachaf> pikhq: What's a good build system?
02:50:11 <ais523> which reminds me, I haven't done a wiki backup in a while
02:50:12 <shachaf> Do you think bazel is good?
02:51:17 <ais523> fizzie: wiki backup dump appears to be broken
02:52:37 <enoua5> u+26a2 to u+26a9 would be.. Interesting
02:53:46 <ais523> here: http://sprunge.us/OALJ
02:53:57 <pikhq> shachaf: Good... build system...
02:54:05 <ais523> I appear to have some documentation on an algorithm for compiling cyclic tag into 3SP
02:54:10 <ais523> in POD format for some reason
02:54:31 <pikhq> Dunno that such a thing exists.
02:54:40 <ais523> I guess I was planning to write a compiler but got stuck
02:54:57 <ais523> pikhq: there's aimake, which also isn't good but which I think shows promise, mostly because I wrote it
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02:59:06 <shachaf> There are many things I like about bazel.
03:02:09 <enoua5> With Factory. I'm debating between two things: porting it to a console language, or creating a visual interpreter. Any opionions?
03:02:52 <ais523> a visual interpreter will be more fun but fairly slow
03:02:56 <ais523> err, fairly hard to writ
03:02:57 <ais523> *write
03:03:12 <ais523> I have this problem lately when I say something that's only tangentially connected to what I actually mean
03:03:22 <ais523> then often notice after I've said it and have to correct it
03:03:55 <enoua5> Yeah, I was originally thinking of the visual interpreter as a sort of debug mode
03:04:37 <enoua5> *debugger
03:05:01 <enoua5> but, yes. it would be both hard and slow
03:08:22 <enoua5> And I don't know how easily I could get it into a console language. It's in JS right now, and I took advantage of some of JS's flexability
03:09:07 <shachaf> What's a console language?
03:10:38 <enoua5> all text based. prints to console (as in command line)
03:11:06 <shachaf> Oh. Doesn't JavaScript qualify?
03:11:20 <shachaf> Or: What's the advantage of a console language?
03:11:28 <enoua5> It's all in browser
03:12:02 <shachaf> Not if you get a non-browser version.
03:12:25 <enoua5> If I did it console based I could have the user be able to see older inputs and outputs without having to do all sorts of crazy
03:15:13 <enoua5> I decided that I didn't want to use a JS's console because I wanted someone to be able to publish a program they make, and the average person doesn't know about js console
03:17:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50091&oldid=50087 * Enoua5 * (+91) /* Languages created */
03:18:42 <enoua5> I may put this in Factory's discussion, but I've got to go
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05:07:24 <izalove> "Describe how you could use a single array to implement three stacks."
05:07:39 <izalove> is the answer to store them like this? abcabcabcabc ?
05:10:30 <ais523> that's one method that works; it's time-efficient but can be memory-inefficient if they have unbalanced sizes
05:12:02 <izalove> the memory efficient way involves moving stacks b and c when inserting a new element in a?
05:14:35 <ais523> yes
05:36:01 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What's the memory- and time-inefficient way?
05:36:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Are there any rigorous measures of complexity other than time- and space-complexity?)
05:36:49 <ais523> you could use your array as a memory space, create a custom allocator that allocates from it
05:36:51 <ais523> then implement the stacks as linked lists
05:36:55 <ais523> that's pretty inefficient
05:37:02 <ais523> (although it's O(n) for both memory and time)
05:37:12 <ais523> err, O(n) for memory, O(1) for time
05:38:45 <hppavilion[1]> New false pedantery game: Insist that big "O" notation isn't correct, and that it's more correct to say big Ø notation
05:39:03 <ais523> New false pedantry game: misspell "pedantry"
05:39:30 <izalove> New false pedanry game: missspell "misspell"
05:39:46 <oerjan> izalove: that's not new i've mispled for years
05:40:13 * izalove just wanted to feel accepted
05:40:46 <shachaf> ais523: You might as well do the dynamic array thing at that point.
05:41:13 <ais523> shachaf: well, people rarely ask for intentionally inefficient algorithms
05:41:31 <ais523> @wn mispled
05:41:33 <lambdabot> No match for "mispled".
05:41:33 <shachaf> ?
05:41:48 <ais523> shachaf: <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What's the memory- and time-inefficient way?
05:41:59 <shachaf> Oh, I missed that.
05:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> New false pantry game: Fooooooood
05:42:20 <izalove> i propose taht we as a society stop writing "?" messages on irc
05:42:34 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: ‽
05:42:46 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Why?
05:42:47 <izalove> illkillyou
05:42:53 <oerjan> izalove: how would that help
05:42:54 <izalove> because
05:43:19 <oerjan> izamurder
05:43:22 <izalove> ? is not enough as a question
05:43:27 <izalove> ah that
05:43:31 <izalove> yeah murdering helps
05:43:43 <izalove> my psychiatrist suggested it
05:43:46 <oerjan> `? izalove
05:43:47 <HackEgo> izalove? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:43:51 <oerjan> `? izabera
05:43:52 <HackEgo> izabera is a bradyherpetologist. She is probably implemented in bash.
05:44:04 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Writing ? conveys the concept "I am confused as to what you just said, please explain" in 1 byte (minus the bytes every message mandatorily includes)
05:44:32 <izalove> "what didn't you undersrtand? what part do i have to explain?"
05:44:34 <izalove> every time
05:44:40 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I would say that "?" alone is bad, but "%: ?" % nickname is sufficient
05:44:46 <izalove> at some point i'll just start answering ? with !
05:44:55 <hppavilion[1]> ⸘‽
05:44:56 <oerjan> !
05:45:34 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: How about instead of just ?, we do ¿?... wait, how do I end this statement as a question? Oh, there we go.
05:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ¡
05:46:15 <izalove> i shouldn't underestimate people with unicode
05:46:30 <oerjan> i realized spanish is not as simple to write as people claim.
05:46:50 <oerjan> you have to know before you start writing whether you're excited at the end or not
05:47:03 <izalove> lol
05:48:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is this a joke or are we talking about sentences where the exclamationing starts in the miOH MY GOD WHAT THE HELL IS THAT‽
05:49:05 <oerjan> the latter hth
05:49:30 <hppavilion[1]> Now would be a really good time for ⹃
05:50:07 <ais523> wait, since when is there an upside-down interrobang?
05:50:10 <oerjan> `unidecode ⹃
05:50:11 <HackEgo> U+2E43 DASH WITH LEFT UPTURN \ UTF-8: e2 b9 83 UTF-16BE: 2e43 Decimal: &#11843; \ ⹃ \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
05:50:16 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: https://jonathanzong.github.io/proposed-punctuation/ hth
05:50:25 <ais523> I've heard that to interrobang in Spanish you start with ¿ and end with ! (or possibly upside-down vice versa)
05:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That isn't actually a... wait, oh
05:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's the point d' amour in the link above, but I assumed it was private use, not overloading (which is stupid)
05:51:35 <oerjan> shocking
05:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> (Really, I think Unicode should have added Bazin's characters ages ago... They never gained usage in any languages I've seen, but people probably want to use them all the time)
05:54:28 <oerjan> afk
06:02:35 <izalove> t1 is a tree with millions of nodes, t2 is a tree with hundreds of nodes
06:02:47 <izalove> determine if t2 is identical to a subtree of t1
06:04:03 <izalove> is there a smart way to do this? looks like substring matching but stuff like boyer moore seems harder to apply
06:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> Today's xkcd is nice.
06:20:09 <ais523> izalove: express the trees in polish or reverse-polish notation, then do a substring match
06:20:35 <ais523> (to avoid false positives you'll need to distinguish leaves from branches but that isn't hard)
06:20:37 <izalove> damn
06:21:21 <ais523> what a weird reaction
06:21:35 <izalove> it's really nice
06:21:42 <izalove> i should have thought about it
06:21:52 <ais523> ah right
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06:37:32 <oerjan> `welcome Necrosporus
06:37:33 <HackEgo> Necrosporus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:38:08 <oerjan> hm halloween is presumably over everywhere.
06:38:12 <Necrosporus> Oh, development
06:38:35 <Necrosporus> Is perl an esoteric language?
06:38:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
06:39:11 <oerjan> Necrosporus: normally not considered so, but our wiki _does_ have a page for it.
06:40:11 <Necrosporus> What about dc language?
06:40:38 <Necrosporus> As in desk calculator
06:40:48 <Necrosporus> or sed
06:41:28 <Necrosporus> Those languages even though widely available are quite similar to languages considered esotheric, aren't they?
06:43:03 <oerjan> yes they are. although normally we exclude languages that are made for "serious use".
06:43:26 <oerjan> but i know e.g. zzo38 (not here at the moment) has done some strange things with dc.
06:44:03 <oerjan> and we have ///, which you could say is _inspired_ by sed.
06:44:30 <Necrosporus> What strange things?
06:44:47 <oerjan> well he did make a Deadfish implementation in it.
06:45:26 <oerjan> i suppose that's not _that_ strange, but he had to use the alternative "xkcd" command set to make it work.
06:45:40 <oerjan> and i think he's done other things, which i don't quite remember.
06:45:58 <oerjan> (he's also done a lot in TeX. plain TeX, without LaTeX.)
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06:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> I just informed Google Translate that Freundschaftreich translates to "Brony Fandom". Now to wait for it to translate.
07:12:46 <myname> yeah, making a big translation site worse flr everybody is fun!
07:14:42 <oerjan> see, it's working, myname already misunderstands "fun"!
07:15:21 <izalove> it's a democratic system and you're attacking his right to vote
07:15:23 <izalove> shame on you
07:15:50 <myname> neither of this is true
07:16:30 <oerjan> i expect google has mechanisms to detect repeat nonsense-makers.
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07:17:45 <izalove> but language *is* a democracy. if enough people start using "literally" as "figuratively", it eventually becomes accepted
07:18:17 <myname> izalove: that's not the definition of democracy
07:18:26 <myname> also: do you like chom choms?
07:18:51 <oerjan> myname: now it is, she told it to google translate hth
07:19:07 <izalove> that's the people's right to vote to shape their language
07:19:11 <izalove> sounds democratic to me
07:19:27 <Hoolootwo> nobody actually votes though really
07:19:30 <oerjan> yes but democracy also has rules.
07:19:54 <izalove> Hoolootwo: everybody does
07:19:59 <izalove> imma cast mah vote right now
07:20:06 <myname> you don't have any way to vote in secret, too
07:20:21 <izalove> secret voting isn't required
07:20:40 <oerjan> your despickable
07:20:46 <myname> no it's not
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08:26:08 <Jafet> next: deliberately playing bad games on IGS to mess up alphago's training
08:32:17 <izalove> a bit late
08:37:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50092&oldid=49993 * Sesshomariu * (+161) /* External resources */
08:46:47 <Jafet> re subtree search: if tree branches are unordered, then converting to a string won't work
08:58:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50093&oldid=50092 * Ais523 * (-161) Undo revision 50092 by [[Special:Contributions/Sesshomariu|Sesshomariu]] ([[User talk:Sesshomariu|talk]]): added to the wrong list, I'll add it to the main one
08:58:35 <b_jonas> @messages
08:58:35 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
08:59:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50094&oldid=49992 * Ais523 * (+144) /* Normal implementations */ add edit by Sesshomariu to the wrong page
09:00:40 <fizzie> ais523: Broken how, in particular?
09:00:59 <ais523> fizzie: I got an error about failure to decompress it
09:01:16 <ais523> leaving behind a .part file, and hopefully leaving the original unchanged
09:01:27 <ais523> I don't really want to investigate though because I'm on a metered connection
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09:04:55 <ais523> haha, I hadn't seen the note at the top of the brainfuck article before
09:05:43 <b_jonas> ais523: "New false pedantry game: misspell "pedantry"" => https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=464
09:06:10 <fizzie> Hrm. The on-server esolangs.xml.gz file itself zcat's through with no warnings. I don't really know much about that whole zsync thing, though.
09:06:16 <fizzie> It's probably also possible you managed to download it as it was updated. The cron job just calls zsyncmake with the final path names (no fancy write-elsewhere-mv-atomically tricks), which might well mean it's broken for the moment it's updating, which happens daily at 6:09 in what's probably America/New_York time zone.
09:06:53 <fizzie> (And I think maintenance/dumpBackup.php takes a while to run.)
09:07:36 <ais523> I guess I'll try again next time I have a nonmetered connection, maybe from scratch
09:07:37 <Tanebirthday> b_jonas, yeah, pendanticity really grates me
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09:54:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50095&oldid=49107 * Sesshomariu * (+178)
10:00:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Sesshomariu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50096 * Ais523 * (+544) reply
10:02:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50097&oldid=50095 * Ais523 * (+191) /* Removal of my compiler */ replied
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10:45:04 <boily> `wisdom
10:45:12 <HackEgo> ingesorgeco//Ingesorgeco is when a German is worrying that their money might get cut short.
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12:43:31 <moony> doot3
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12:48:58 * moony rederps
12:49:35 <izalove> did you derp before?
12:50:45 <moony> izalove: see yesterday
12:51:16 <izalove> you're overestimating my powers
12:51:22 <izalove> can't yet see in the past
12:51:25 <moony> lol
12:53:45 <moony> izalove, http://tinyurl.com/h8uxhf4 ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/h8uxhf4 )
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12:56:39 <moony> izalove, tell me what you think ^_^
12:57:18 <izalove> it makes me feel stupid
12:57:24 <izalove> but what doesn't, these days?
12:57:39 <moony> fun note: HBL may be higher or lower than turing complete, due to the paradoxical situations possible it is uncomputeable and undecidable
12:57:50 <moony> thus it is hard to know
12:57:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50098&oldid=50082 * Sesshomariu * (+13) /* P */
12:59:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PPAP++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50099 * Sesshomariu * (+216) Created page with "PPAP++ is an esoteric programming language by [[User:Sesshomariu]] based on [[brainfuck]] and referencing to the popular PPAP meme. The repository on GitHub can be found [http..."
12:59:54 <moony> it can be considered a subclass of a oracle machine i believe
13:01:14 <Tanebirthday> What's your favourite finite equivalence class
13:01:15 <moony> YABD (Yet Another Brainfuck Derivative)
13:01:35 <moony> Tanebirthday, you lost me on 'finite equivalence class'
13:01:53 <Tanebirthday> I misworded
13:02:02 <Tanebirthday> What's your favourite equivalence relation on a finite set
13:02:17 <izalove> happy taneb
13:02:17 * moony is still lost
13:02:23 <moony> happy Tanebirthday!
13:02:26 <Tanebirthday> :D
13:02:35 <Tanebirthday> moony, OK, do you know what a finite set is
13:02:45 <izalove> the opposite of a finite unset
13:02:51 <moony> yes, a matrix/list of finite size
13:02:55 <moony> i believe
13:02:59 <izalove> oh.
13:03:04 <izalove> i guess that works too.
13:04:05 <izalove> i have a 107% serious question
13:04:14 <izalove> did haskell start out as an esoteric lang?
13:04:51 <moony> no idea
13:04:55 <Tanebirthday> izalove, no!
13:05:00 <izalove> ok, when did it become one?
13:05:07 <Tanebirthday> It started out because people were frustrated because Miranda was trademarked
13:05:14 <Tanebirthday> 2006
13:05:17 <izalove> that explains it
13:09:52 <Tanebirthday> `? histogram
13:09:57 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
13:13:21 <izalove> http://i.imgur.com/yj4LwRJ.png nice problem
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13:16:11 <Tanebirthday> Apparently I invented something last night
13:16:29 <Tanebirthday> The "Taneb consistency", defined to be the consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies
13:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50100&oldid=50091 * Enoua5 * (+623)
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13:28:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50101&oldid=50100 * Enoua5 * (+301) /* Furry */
13:33:31 <moony> `le/rn Taneb consistency/A consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it
13:33:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'taneb consistency': A consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it
13:34:00 <FreeFull> Tanebirthday: Happy birthday
13:34:11 <FreeFull> Also, do all the best projects start with someone being frustrated?
13:35:18 <moony> possibly
13:36:26 <izalove> do all the failed projects end with someone being frustrated?
13:39:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Factory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50102 * Enoua5 * (+359) Created page with "Currently, I am thinking of how to bring Factory a step forward.<br/> Here are some of my ideas: <br/> 1) Porting Factory to a language that can create .exe's<br/> 2) Creating..."
13:40:16 <quintopia> no
13:40:30 <quintopia> some end with someone being bored
13:41:02 <quintopia> but all the partially funded but failed projects end with frustration
13:41:29 <quintopia> (interestingly, lots of successful projects start with someone being bored)
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13:42:28 <moony> warning: do not preform the -flip command
13:43:18 <moony> -flip
13:43:18 <otherbot> Confirm by using as argument: 29513265525635400
13:44:25 <FreeFull> moony: Can I postform it?
13:44:46 <moony> go ahead and try?
13:44:53 <moony> ?
13:46:23 <FreeFull> +flip
13:46:40 <moony> ...
13:47:46 * FreeFull then performs -flip
14:10:58 <Tanebirthday> moony, what is -flip
14:11:42 <moony> messes with your otherbot permissions,iovoid added it for fun
14:13:27 <Tanebirthday> I... see...
14:29:58 <moony> wow the list of uncomputable languages is small, but they are all rather intresting
14:41:19 <moony> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang << lol
14:41:36 <moony> oh nice joke Gregor :p
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15:04:56 <moony> hellochaf
15:05:16 <shachaf> don't do that
15:05:27 <moony> ?
15:31:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Memfractal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50103 * TuxCrafting * (+111) Created page with "Very clear 10/10 ~~~~"
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17:52:45 <hppavilion[1]> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouHaveToHaveJews was notably averted in Germany
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19:29:53 <moony> you just lost The Game
19:30:29 <izalove> fuck
19:30:44 <izalove> it's been months
19:30:55 <izalove> i deeply hate you
19:32:06 <moony> lol
19:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50104&oldid=50085 * Enoua5 * (+25)
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19:57:05 <moony> hppavilion[1], you just lost The Game.
19:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> moony: Awww, but I was having so much fun plazing poker!
19:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> moony: Also, Iäm currentlz set to a german kezboard
19:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> ÖP
19:58:16 * moony realises he actually is TIEing the game, due to his Roleplay character personallity sitting around in is head doesnt know about The Game
19:58:38 * moony realises he cant lose unless he tells his RP character about it
20:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> I can't believe that Unicode lacks the love symbol
20:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> U+101A1: THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS PRINCE
20:05:49 <hppavilion[1]> (note what block it would fall in)
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20:10:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50105&oldid=50104 * Enoua5 * (-3) /* Example two: I -> O program */
20:19:38 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode U+fe56
20:19:44 <HackEgo> ​[U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0036 DIGIT SIX]
20:22:27 <hppavilion[1]> *sigh*
20:22:27 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ﹖
20:22:28 <hppavilion[1]> ...?
20:22:28 <HackEgo> ​[U+FE56 SMALL QUESTION MARK]
20:22:36 <hppavilion[1]> ...That's not important
20:27:35 <hppavilion[1]> I can replace it
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20:38:52 <\oren\> wait, that char isn;t in my font
20:38:54 <\oren\> wat
20:48:02 <\oren\> moony: I herd you liek mudkipz
20:48:42 <\oren\> seriusly dud that meme is so old it could vote for president
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21:01:11 <izalove> given two words of equal length that are in a dictionary, write a function to transform one word into another by changing only one letter at a time
21:01:11 <izalove> the new word you get in each step must be in the dictionary
21:01:11 <izalove> example: input: damp, like
21:01:11 <izalove> output: damp -> lamp -> limp -> lime -> like
21:01:29 <wob_jonas> izalove: wait wait I have a reference for that
21:01:45 <wob_jonas> izalove: let me pull up the link
21:02:12 <izalove> no spoilers <.<
21:03:06 <wob_jonas> oh damn... I only have a gmane web link, but that thread isn't accessible through the gmane web interface
21:03:08 <wob_jonas> anyway,
21:03:46 <izalove> so far my plan is to get all the X letter words in the dictionary, remove the ones that can't be changed to at least two words
21:04:05 <izalove> then brute force
21:04:48 <wob_jonas> izalove: anyway, this was given as one of the tasks on the perl quiz of the week mailing list lots of years ago. that mailing list is no longer running, and I'm not sure of the
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21:05:49 <wob_jonas> email address or of the date, but the gmane link for the Word Ladder task evaluation (which has spoilers) was http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.perl.qotw.quiz-of-the-week/109 ,
21:05:51 <izalove> breath first search with dynamic programming
21:06:12 <izalove> wob_jonas: thanks for not spoiling it :D
21:06:31 <wob_jonas> and there's some info about the mailing list at http://perl.plover.com/qotw/ so you might be able to find a trace from either there, or from the gmane news interface.
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21:08:16 <wob_jonas> ah, here's a copy of the discussion email, which does have SPOILERS, so don't read it yet: http://perl.plover.com/qotw/e/solution/022
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21:27:41 <APic> Heya wanderman
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22:02:26 <shachaf> @time Taneb
22:02:26 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Thu Nov 3 22:02:28
22:02:46 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm about to go to bed you see
22:03:01 <Taneb> And don't want to have a birthday-themed nick inaccurately
22:09:16 <shachaf> I guess false negatives don't hurt.
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22:14:04 <boily> `wisdom
22:14:21 <HackEgo> zzo38mtg.php//http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
22:15:34 <shachaf> tdh
22:15:45 <shachaf> I always forget that URL.
22:15:46 <shachaf> `wisdom
22:15:51 <HackEgo> off by two//An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction.
22:15:56 <shachaf> `wisdom
22:15:57 <HackEgo> cdop//CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
22:16:15 <shachaf> `cwlprits cdop
22:16:28 <HackEgo> oerjän
22:16:50 <boily> `wisdom
22:16:52 <HackEgo> butterfly//While some might think butterflies are descended from flies, that is a false entomology.
22:16:52 <boily> `wisdom
22:16:55 <HackEgo> metasepia//metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
22:16:56 <shachaf> county d'orange police?
22:17:15 <boily> c'est des oublis particuliers?
22:17:45 <shachaf> google says: "it's special forgetfulness"
22:18:03 <shachaf> boily is quite the forgetful functor
22:18:45 <shachaf> the oceans are quite boily today
22:21:14 <boily> more like "those are particular omissions" hth
22:21:26 <boily> what's a forgetful functor?
22:21:47 <boily> I swim in oceans about 15 minutes per year.
22:21:49 <\oren\> @metar CYYZ
22:22:38 <lambdabot> CYYZ 032200Z 35011KT 15SM FEW025 FEW050 SCT080 BKN140 BKN210 11/07 A3008 RMK CU1SC2AC2AC3CI1 CU TR CI TR SLP189
22:23:16 <shachaf> I think "forgetful functor" means "functor".
22:24:13 <boily> he\\oren\. are you rained?
22:24:27 <boily> shachaf: tdsh.
22:25:08 <shachaf> `? weather
22:25:10 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
22:25:15 <lambdabot> CYUL 032200Z 02005KT 15SM -RA FEW008 SCT020 OVC045 09/07 A2996 RMK SF1SC2SC5 SLP147 \ ENVA 032150Z 09005KT 9999 -SN BKN033 00/M03 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 10009KT \ ESSB 032220Z AUTO 29003KT 9999
22:25:15 <lambdabot> BKN040/// M01/M02 Q1015 \ KOAK 032153Z 28007KT 10SM FEW180 FEW250 21/12 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T02110117 PNO \ PAMR 032153Z 19004KT 10SM CLR 02/M02 A2915 RMK AO2 SLP872 T00221017
22:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Baby Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50106 * Enoua5 * (+182) Created page with "A random BF generator and interpreter could work for this. I just barely created a BF generator in JS. ~~~~"
22:26:36 <boily> PAMR? that sounds hppavilionny[1].
22:26:39 <shachaf> @where weather
22:26:39 <lambdabot> ?? ?@ ?run var$intercalate " \\ " . map (\x -> "(@metar "++x++")") . words $ ?show
22:28:50 <FireFly> Cute
22:29:01 <FireFly> By which I mean somewhat terrifying
22:29:34 <shachaf> It's more terrifying when you try to process the metar output.
22:29:48 <FireFly> @@ @where weather
22:29:48 <lambdabot> ?? ?@ ?run var$intercalate " \\ " . map (\x -> "(@metar "++x++")") . words $ ?show
22:29:55 <shachaf> In fact I don't think I managed to do it, because it ran into some length limit or something.
22:29:55 <FireFly> @@ @@ @where weather
22:29:57 <lambdabot> Terminated
22:30:09 <shachaf> @@ @@ @where quonochrom
22:30:09 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Don't wrap your head around haskell. Immerse! Wrap haskell around your head.
22:30:41 <\oren\> @metar TEST
22:30:58 <FireFly> @where quonocrom
22:30:58 <lambdabot> I know nothing about quonocrom.
22:30:59 <FireFly> @where quonochrom
22:30:59 <lambdabot> ?quote monochrom
22:30:59 <FireFly> @@ @where quonochrom
22:30:59 <lambdabot> ?quote monochrom
22:30:59 <lambdabot> No result.
22:31:09 <shachaf> `airport Norman Y. Mineta San José International Airport
22:31:12 <HackEgo> No output.
22:31:17 <shachaf> `airport San Jose
22:31:18 <boily> `quote chrom
22:31:19 <HackEgo> San Jose (?, MGSJ) \ San Jose (?, RPUH) \ Norman Y Mineta San Jose Intl (SJC, KSJC) \ Isla San Jose (?, ?)
22:31:21 <HackEgo> 165) <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S. \ 166) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
22:31:21 <FireFly> `cat bin/airport
22:31:21 <HackEgo> airport-lookup any "$*"
22:31:29 <\oren\> @metar KLAX
22:31:29 <lambdabot> KLAX 032153Z 26010KT 10SM CLR 26/06 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP155 T02560061
22:31:31 <shachaf> `airport Norman Y. Mineta San Jose International
22:31:33 <HackEgo> No output.
22:31:33 <FireFly> `airport F-18
22:31:36 <FireFly> `airport Tullinge
22:31:36 <HackEgo> No output.
22:31:37 <shachaf> `airport Norman Y Mineta San Jose
22:31:38 <HackEgo> No output.
22:31:42 <HackEgo> Norman Y Mineta San Jose Intl (SJC, KSJC)
22:31:54 <\oren\> @metar READ
22:31:59 <boily> @metar WSSS
22:32:01 <lambdabot> No result.
22:32:01 <lambdabot> WSSS 032230Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW018 BKN180 26/24 Q1009 NOSIG
22:32:22 <FireFly> `airport Södertörn
22:32:24 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:30 <shachaf> `airport international Pearson de Toronto
22:32:30 <FireFly> I guess it's too up-to-date
22:32:31 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:43 <FireFly> I wanted to find an airport that closed '74
22:32:49 <shachaf> `airport Toronto Pearson
22:32:51 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:55 <shachaf> `airport Toronto
22:32:57 <HackEgo> Toronto Coach Terminal (?, TRTO) \ Toronto Union Station (?, ?)
22:32:58 <shachaf> useless
22:33:06 <FireFly> `airport Stockholm
22:33:08 <HackEgo> Stockholm Cruise Port (STO, ?)
22:33:08 <shachaf> `airport toronto
22:33:11 <HackEgo> Toronto Coach Terminal (?, TRTO) \ Toronto Union Station (?, ?)
22:33:22 <shachaf> `airport YYZ
22:33:24 <HackEgo> Lester B Pearson Intl (YYZ, CYYZ) \ Lester B Pearson Intl (YYZ, CYYZ)
22:33:42 <FireFly> `airport ARN
22:33:44 <HackEgo> Arnsberg Menden (ZCA, EDLA) \ Parnu (EPU, EEPU) \ Farnborough (FAB, EGLF) \ Sundsvall Harnosand (SDL, ESNN) \ Arlanda (ARN, ESSA) \ Varna (VAR, LBWN) \ Larnaca (LCA, LCLK) \ Charnay (QNX, LFLM) \ Arnage (LME, LFRM) \ Lauro Carneiro De Loyola (JOI, SBJV) \ Alberto Carnevalli (MRD, SVMD) \ Barnaul (BAX, UNBB) \ Carnicobar (?, VOCX) \ Soekarno Hatta I
22:33:55 <FireFly> `airport-lookup --help
22:33:56 <HackEgo> usage: airport any|name|iata|icao key
22:34:17 <boily> `airport HKG
22:34:18 <HackEgo> Hong Kong Intl (HKG, VHHH) \ Garba Tula (?, HKGT) \ Garissa (GAS, HKGA) \ Kai Tak (?, HKGX)
22:34:33 <boily> Kai Tak is still listed?
22:34:52 <FireFly> `airport-lookup IATA ARN
22:34:53 <HackEgo> usage: airport any|name|iata|icao key
22:35:00 <FireFly> er
22:35:06 <FireFly> `` airport-lookup iata ARN
22:35:11 <HackEgo> Arlanda (ARN, ESSA)
22:35:19 <FireFly> hm
22:35:33 <FireFly> `` airport-lookup icao ESS
22:35:36 <HackEgo> Arlanda (ARN, ESSA) \ Bromma (BMA, ESSB) \ Borlange (BLE, ESSD) \ Hultsfred (HLF, ESSF) \ Gavle (GVX, ESSK) \ Saab (LPI, ESSL) \ Kungsangen (NRK, ESSP) \ Eskilstuna (?, ESSU) \ Visby (VBY, ESSV) \ Torsby Airport (TYF, ESST) \ Cherskiy Airport (CYX, UESS) \ Essen HBF (ESX, ESSE) \ Vangso (?, ESSZ)
22:36:08 <FireFly> No Skavsta?
22:36:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:36:25 <FireFly> oh that's ESKN
22:36:26 <FireFly> I see
22:39:15 <boily> `? weather
22:39:18 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
22:39:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 032200Z 02005KT 15SM -RA FEW008 SCT020 OVC045 09/07 A2996 RMK SF1SC2SC5 SLP147 \ ENVA 032220Z 09006KT 8000 -SN VV013 00/M03 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 11009KT \ ESSB 032220Z AUTO 29003KT 9999 BKN040/
22:39:21 <lambdabot> // M01/M02 Q1015 \ KOAK 032153Z 28007KT 10SM FEW180 FEW250 21/12 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T02110117 PNO \ PAMR 032153Z 19004KT 10SM CLR 02/M02 A2915 RMK AO2 SLP872 T00221017
22:47:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:50:14 <hppavilion[1]> The difficulty of calculating the circumference of an ellipse annoys me.
22:52:05 -!- moony has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:55:41 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to propose a new function to simplify notation (based on the fairly reasonable- but not actually formally proven as far as I've seen- assumption that all ellipses with the same ratio between the minor and major radii have their circumference scaled the same as their radii. In other words, if you make an ellipse twice as big (along x and y), then it will have twice the circumference. This is at least true for circles. Please oh
22:55:41 <hppavilion[1]> please god let the math be right)
22:57:04 <boily> there is no god, only fungot.
22:57:13 <boily> well, even fungot isn't.
22:57:15 <hppavilion[1]> boily: All glory to fungodt!
22:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> pia ([paɪ.ʌ]; pi augmented). It's a function represented by an inverted minuscule pi (flipped over x, not rotated by 180°) which takes an argument p representing the proportion between the major and minor radii of an ellipse. It returns a constant c such that an ellipse where the radii have proportion p has circumference of c*r (where r is the minor radius if |p| > 1, the major radius if |p| < 1, and any radius if |p| = 1)
22:59:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:59:25 <hppavilion[1]> pia(1) is obviously just pi.
23:00:27 <wob_jonas> wait... they printed a creature that costs 3R and has "Pay 3 life: Add {R} to your mana pool." and no drawbacks? that sounds like a mini-channel possible disaster
23:00:36 <wob_jonas> like, you play it and can instantly get 6 mana
23:00:39 <fizzie> `iata ARN
23:00:41 <HackEgo> Arlanda (ARN, ESSA)
23:00:46 <fizzie> `icao EFHK
23:00:47 <HackEgo> Helsinki Vantaa (HEL, EFHK)
23:00:47 <wob_jonas> in like turn 3
23:00:52 <fizzie> Those are them shortcuts.
23:02:23 -!- LKoen has joined.
23:02:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:03:15 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
23:03:16 <lambdabot> EGLL 032250Z AUTO 19004KT 130V250 9999 NCD 08/05 Q1016 NOSIG
23:08:08 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:12:15 <FireFly> fizzie: aha
23:13:08 <shachaf> FireFly: what happened to `any twh
23:13:16 <shachaf> s/FireFly/fizzie/
23:14:43 <fizzie> It felt too generic to do.
23:14:49 <fizzie> There's also no `name hth
23:15:25 <shachaf> tdnifh
23:16:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:21:27 <\oren\> `airport toronto
23:21:31 <HackEgo> Toronto Coach Terminal (?, TRTO) \ Toronto Union Station (?, ?)
23:21:40 <\oren\> WHA
23:21:55 <\oren\> how are those airports
23:28:08 <boily> wob_jonas: wellob_jonas. is it modern?
23:28:23 <boily> `airport WHA
23:28:25 <HackEgo> Whakatane (WHK, NZWK) \ Whangarei (WRE, NZWR) \ Anelghowhat Airport (AUY, NVVA) \ Whale Cove Airport (YXN, CYXN) \ Whatì Airport (YLE, CEM3) \ Whyalla Airport (WYA, YWHA) \ North Whale Seaplane Base (WWP, ?) \ Whalers Bay (?, ?) \ Newhaven Ferry Port (?, ?) \ Long Wharf (?, ?)
23:28:30 <wob_jonas> boily: no
23:28:39 <boily> then all is well ^^
23:33:02 <quintopia> coily
23:36:38 <fizzie> http://www.checkwx.com/weather/TRTO <- clearly an airport
23:37:24 -!- MDude has joined.
23:40:40 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
23:41:07 <boily> I have found maybe one of the last of a special edition beer. It will be mailed.
23:42:08 <quintopia> :O
23:42:16 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
23:50:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50107&oldid=50106 * Enoua5 * (+128)
23:51:37 -!- enoua5 has joined.
23:52:46 <enoua5> I've created an implementation for Baby Language. How should I go about adding that to the wiki?
23:53:18 <boily> `relcome enoua5
23:53:27 <HackEgo> enoua5: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:53:40 <boily> enoua5: what do you mean adding it?
23:54:07 <boily> oh. linking to it. you should use: http://pastebin.ca/
23:54:15 <enoua5> thanks!
23:58:45 <quintopia> i have a plan for digits in aubergine
23:59:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50108&oldid=50090 * Enoua5 * (+94) Implemented language
2016-11-04
00:01:29 <boily> quintopia: dun dun dun ♪
00:01:38 <enoua5> Any thoughts?
00:03:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:03:24 <enoua5> crap, realized i typo'd something
00:04:00 <oerjan> typpos are unaceptable hear
00:04:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50109&oldid=50108 * Enoua5 * (+0)
00:04:46 <boily> as long as the typö is artistic enough, it's okay.
00:05:38 <boily> you violate pep8! that is unacceptable!
00:05:46 <enoua5> Yeah, I fixed it now. It broke a checker for seeing if recursion had gone too far.
00:08:05 <quintopia> boily ready for vacation
00:10:13 <hppavilion[1]> enoua5: What happens when the checker recurses too far?
00:10:41 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I've added umlaut to my keyboard as alt+colon (alt+shift+semicolon). Victory is mine!
00:10:48 <enoua5> The program crashes
00:11:12 <hppavilion[1]> (I could instead put it in 'u' for 'umlaut', because that's currently bound to üÜ, which will become unnecessary...)
00:12:25 <oerjan> how do you write a normal u twh
00:13:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:14:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I don't change the default layout, the bindings are accessed via right alt (altgr)
00:14:26 -!- enoua5 has left.
00:17:37 <FireFly> I just use dead ¨ followed by u
00:17:37 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, I WONDER where I should put the grave?
00:17:52 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I don't have a dead key to put it in
00:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: So I put the combining diacritic in alt+u
00:18:10 <FireFly> what OS do you use?
00:18:20 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Windows :/
00:18:28 <FireFly> oh, never mind then
00:19:11 <fizzie> I've resurrected all of ¨ ^ ~ ´ ` that are normally dead on the Finnish layout, because if you happen to want to combine them, there's always the compose key.
00:19:26 <fizzie> ¨ is probably the least useful as a non-dead key though.
00:19:35 <FireFly> Right, that's why I haven't changed that
00:19:52 <FireFly> I made ~ nondead and have nondead ^ as altgr+shift+¨
00:20:14 <fizzie> How do you type a ñ then?
00:20:14 <FireFly> and nondead ` as altgr+'
00:20:20 <FireFly> compose key for ñ
00:20:24 <fizzie> Right.
00:20:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: grave _has_ to be a dead key, obviously.
00:20:37 <fizzie> Hm, there seems to be a ˇ in my altgr-'.
00:20:44 <FireFly> I guess my solution is a bit adhoc based on which keys I actually use as nondead, and where I might place them
00:20:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Why??
00:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, actually, yeah, I can make a key dead
00:21:35 <FireFly> I think you might've missed oerjan's joke
00:22:56 <oerjan> FireFly: you should czech that out.
00:22:58 <oerjan> oops
00:23:03 <oerjan> *fizzie:
00:23:25 <FireFly> your pun game is on point tonight
00:23:32 * oerjan chases muphry around with the saucepan again ===\__/
00:23:47 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, I don't think I have enough places to put dead keys
00:24:27 <FireFly> just put them under altgr+specials or altgr+shift+specials
00:24:32 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Maybe I could lose my ` and ~ keys (kind of) in favor of having key combinations meaning various diacritics and letters )
00:24:33 <FireFly> bit annoying to type though
00:25:05 * boily *THWACKS* oerjan. 0.50 FP.
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00:25:57 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Is it possible to use a key twice in a dead key?
00:26:04 <hppavilion[1]> *key combo
00:26:15 <FireFly> Hmm?
00:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> Like, could I have `uu be ü?
00:26:22 <FireFly> no
00:26:24 <FireFly> well
00:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> Damn, didn't think so
00:26:29 <FireFly> I dunno, I don't think so
00:26:37 <FireFly> that would be weird either way
00:26:40 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Wait, I could probably just bind `u to u umlaut
00:26:53 <FireFly> umm
00:27:02 <FireFly> but what if you want to type ù
00:27:16 <FireFly> wouldn't it make more sense for `u to yield ù rather than ü
00:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I'm pretty sure I can have multiple keys in a combo, so ` will be the general-purpose diacritical key
00:28:35 <quintopia> boily
00:28:53 <hppavilion[1]> So `<diacritic-code><letter> is the given letter with the given diacritic
00:28:55 <boily> quintopia:
00:29:35 <boily> FireFly: ù is AltCar-DeadCircumflex, then u.
00:30:37 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, damn
00:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> I guess I can't require multiple characters in one deadkey combo
00:34:31 <hppavilion[1]> :(
00:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> (God, I wish I could just chord it...)
00:36:46 <boily> quintopia: ?
00:37:27 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you can do stuff like ế with multiple deadkeys and/or precomposed characters.
00:37:41 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yeah, I think so...
01:10:17 -!- augur has joined.
01:10:58 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. could you please refungot the chännel?
01:16:30 <quintopia> sorry
01:16:40 <quintopia> i was going to ask
01:16:55 <quintopia> if you wanted to do any more gaming in future
01:16:57 <quintopia> boily
01:18:28 <boily> of course, but December at the soonest...
01:21:09 <FireFly> out of curiosity, what kind of gaming?
01:36:18 -!- iconmaster has joined.
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01:44:28 <boily> games with bordering lands hth
01:50:36 -!- fungot has joined.
01:50:44 <fizzie> boily: It is done.
01:54:08 <boily> thizzie!
01:54:11 <boily> fungot: allô toi!
01:54:12 <fungot> boily: you can simply read the file. after some fnord around with it... but it shouldn't be especially hard to do
01:54:21 * boily adds fnords around fungot
01:54:22 <fungot> boily: one for each byte does the same. a tag check involves one more indirection ( a bit more
01:54:40 <boily> fungot: one fnord for each byte, and in the markov chain bind them.
01:54:40 <fungot> boily: oh yeah finnish :)
01:55:08 <fizzie> Hey.
01:55:09 <boily> fungot: hyväskyn.
01:55:09 <fungot> boily: well in that case, in general, changes to the system
01:55:24 <fizzie> The SOCK fingerprint *does* have a thing to set SO_KEEPALIVE.
01:55:51 <fizzie> I think if I set that on, it'll stop fungot from getting indefinitely stuck on the recv call if freenode dies, after which I could look into making it automatically restart.
01:55:51 <fungot> fizzie: there is something about it today evening ( i must leave now, have we reached the " did too! did not!
01:56:07 <fizzie> ...except I don't have a facility to auto-join channels, or auto-identify to NickServ yet.
01:56:14 <boily> fungot: don't leave.
01:56:15 <fungot> boily: either the way, uses fnord to display. bt connection to a machine that worked for six days. headache, stomach ache, ovary ache, muscle aches everywhere, awful nausea etc. sigh.
01:56:32 <boily> fungot: oh. if your ovaries ache, then rest!
01:56:33 <fungot> boily: condition-restarters, modify-condition-restarters, default-handle-condition... aren't the names a bit inconsistent? it is fnord something workable.
01:56:38 <boily> fizzie: fungot has ovaries?
01:56:38 <fungot> boily: ummmm....... huh....really? ummm......what were we talking about again? mmmm.....really? is that possible
01:56:48 <fizzie> boily: I don't know how it works.
02:00:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ANYTHING CHICKEN).
02:02:37 <FireFly> ^style
02:02:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:19:53 <fizzie> ^style fisher
02:19:53 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
02:19:55 <fizzie> fungot: So what's new?
02:19:55 <fungot> fizzie: and um but the area we live in um new jersey and i'm going to
02:20:08 <fizzie> fungot: Going to what?
02:20:09 <fungot> fizzie: out oh yeah my son))
02:20:32 <fizzie> fungot: You're not my dad.
02:20:32 <fungot> fizzie: i dunno in countries like um they have um
02:21:23 <fizzie> I think this style has had some preprocessing issues, it seems prone to abrupt stops.
02:43:04 <oerjan> also prone to um
02:53:45 <oerjan> `? taneb consistency
02:53:53 <HackEgo> A consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it
02:54:25 <oerjan> `slwd taneb consistency//s/./Taneb consistency is a/
02:54:30 <HackEgo> taneb consistency//Taneb consistency is a consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it
02:54:46 <oerjan> `slwd taneb consistency//s/$/./
02:54:50 <HackEgo> taneb consistency//Taneb consistency is a consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it.
03:02:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:07:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> I think "forgetful functor" means "functor". <-- i think it should be a right adjoint of something hth
03:23:53 <oerjan> `airport teborg
03:23:58 <HackEgo> No output.
03:24:40 <oerjan> `airport troms
03:24:43 <HackEgo> No output.
03:25:12 <oerjan> `iata TOS
03:25:15 <HackEgo> Langnes (TOS, ENTC)
03:25:34 <oerjan> oh hm
03:25:41 <oerjan> `airport trondheim
03:25:44 <HackEgo> No output.
03:25:52 <oerjan> `icao ENVA
03:25:55 <HackEgo> Vaernes (TRD, ENVA)
03:26:08 <oerjan> there you go. no strange letters allowed.
03:26:40 <FireFly> I guess it's Værnes?
03:28:04 <oerjan> yep
03:28:11 <shachaf> oerjan: but cofree functors are right adjoint to forgetful functors hth
03:28:41 <oerjan> OKAY
03:31:10 <FireFly> I suffer from the no-strange-letters each time I get flight tickets
03:31:18 <FireFly> though more due to surname than airport name
04:20:49 <tswett> `iata GRR
04:20:52 <HackEgo> Gerald R Ford Intl (GRR, KGRR)
04:21:06 <tswett> It's so international!
04:23:25 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that the letters "GRR" do not come from "Gerald R. Ford".
04:24:06 <Jafet> the Los Ángeles I11l Airport
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04:33:39 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Is cofreedom what they have in China?
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05:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> OK, bound onto an alternate e is now a dead key for æ, Æ, œ, and Œ
05:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> The lack of øe is unfortunate
05:05:52 <FireFly> I have æÆ under a and øØ under o
05:05:57 <shachaf> "co" does not mean "opposite"
05:08:40 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I didn't say it does
05:08:43 <FireFly> ol story bro
05:08:49 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I do too, with altgr
05:08:57 <shachaf> i never said anyone said it does
05:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...dammit. You win.
05:09:11 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: right, that's what I meant too
05:09:31 <hppavilion[1]> "I just type æs and øs for every a and o"
05:09:52 <hppavilion[1]> øüch
05:12:20 <hppavilion[1]> Øøk would be a good esonlamg... (not a tbs or bfd at all, preferably)
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06:19:02 <hppavilion[1]> "Make peace with your 'got"
06:26:50 <hppavilion[1]> @metar KKKK
06:26:51 <lambdabot> No result.
06:26:59 <hppavilion[1]> I assume nobody wanted that one :P
06:27:04 <hppavilion[1]> @metar FUCK
06:27:05 <lambdabot> No result.
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07:47:09 <izalove> https://maps.me/ offline maps on your smartphone for all the people with a smartphone and no internet access
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08:28:25 <myname> well, osmand works fine, too
08:29:22 <fizzie> Google Maps is enough for me.
08:32:18 <myname> google maps does not work without internet
08:32:53 <fizzie> Well, not entirely. But it lets you download rather large chunks of the world as offline areas.
08:33:31 <shachaf> fizzie has been assimilated and no longer understand the phrase "without internet" hth
08:33:54 <fizzie> That as well.
08:34:17 <myname> it lets you download chunks... in a cache that is easily cleared
08:34:45 <fizzie> Offline areas aren't "easily cleared", IMO.
08:34:56 <fizzie> I don't mean you'd use the regular cache, I mean the explicit offline areas.
08:35:15 <fizzie> Which you get a list of, and which stay around for a month and auto-refresh themselves getting close to expiring.
08:35:33 <shachaf> what if you have no internet connection for a month
08:35:41 <fizzie> https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&hl=en <- those things.
08:35:52 <fizzie> shachaf: Then you're out of luck hth
08:37:18 <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh
08:37:28 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm pretty happy that they made getting directions work offline as well.
08:37:44 <fizzie> (But now I need to gets to a doctor, so bye.)
08:38:14 <shachaf> is L1 cache faster because it uses the taxicab metric
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08:53:43 <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways)
09:02:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: hehe
09:02:38 <b_jonas> that's a real funny one
09:02:55 <b_jonas> I mean
09:03:00 <b_jonas> Jafet: that's a funny one
09:03:05 <b_jonas> I have to addquote that
09:04:02 <b_jonas> `addquote <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways)
09:04:07 <HackEgo> 1296) <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways)
09:04:34 <b_jonas> um, what's the quote format for separating multiple messages in a quote?
09:04:59 <shachaf> `? quotefmt
09:05:00 <HackEgo> quotefmt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:05:06 <shachaf> `? quoteformat
09:05:08 <HackEgo> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
09:05:15 <b_jonas> great! I got it right
09:05:32 <shachaf> oerjan: nowadays we would space-separate a wisdom entry like that
09:05:48 <shachaf> the dark ages of wisdom
09:06:01 <shachaf> `doag quotes
09:06:07 <HackEgo> 9620:2016-11-04 <b_jonäs> addquote <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L\xe2\x88\x9e metric (they can go eight ways) \ 9442:2016-10-26 <oerjän> addquote <Taneb> I once forgot what bin men were called <Taneb> Doing roughly 50% of a computer science
09:07:10 <shachaf> I wonder how the frequency of quote modifications has waned.
09:07:18 <shachaf> fizzie is probably going to make a fancy graph or something.
09:12:32 <b_jonas> `quote
09:12:34 <HackEgo> 172) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
09:12:38 <b_jonas> `quote
09:12:39 <HackEgo> 965) <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
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10:14:23 <fizzie> shachaf: I've been spoiled by tools starting with D, and doing fancy graphs "by hand" feels so crude now.
10:14:27 <fizzie> I even set up a InfluxDB + Grafana thing at home to pretend.
10:15:02 <fizzie> Here, have a table instead: http://sprunge.us/OFjg
10:15:19 <fizzie> It's like a vertical bar chart in logscale, if you look at it the right way.
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10:42:56 -!- boily has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive pizza testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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10:50:27 <boily> Tannelle. how's the exam season?
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12:33:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50110&oldid=50012 * Function call without parameters * (+312) update
12:36:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50111&oldid=50109 * Enoua5 * (+2)
12:37:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bug Computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50112&oldid=49934 * Function call without parameters * (+14) minor corrections and clarification of the cat example
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13:34:02 <izalove> on a scale from klingon to emoji, how readable is this way to represent a tree?
13:34:05 <izalove> /---------------E---------------\
13:34:07 <izalove> /-------C-------\ /-------D-------\
13:34:09 <izalove> /---y---\ /---z---\ /---A---\ /---B---\
13:34:11 <izalove> a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p
13:34:27 <izalove> and i forgot a line
13:34:33 <izalove> because it started with /
13:34:37 <izalove> it was /-q-\ /-r-\ /-s-\ /-t-\ /-u-\ /-v-\ /-w-\ /-x-\
13:34:38 <xa0> nope.
13:34:41 <xa0> never again.
13:34:58 <izalove> :C
13:35:07 <ybden> Hey, I thought that was pretty readable
13:35:26 <izalove> plz use that scale
13:35:55 <ybden> klingon
13:36:06 <ybden> (note: I've never read klingon before)
13:36:09 <int-e> I think the scale would work better with \_q_/ instead of /-q-\.
13:36:39 <ybden> (note also: I strongly dislike emoji)
13:36:42 <int-e> (obligatory opportunistic pun)
13:37:04 <int-e> `? oop
13:37:13 <HackEgo> oop? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:37:31 <izalove> a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p
13:37:33 <izalove> \_q_/ \_r_/ \_s_/ \_t_/ \_u_/ \_v_/ \_w_/ \_x_/
13:37:36 <izalove> \___y___/ \___z___/ \___A___/ \___B___/
13:37:40 <izalove> \_______C_______/ \_______D_______/
13:37:43 <izalove> \_______________E_______________/
13:39:32 <xa0> ah, i like that one
13:39:49 <int-e> _..--==O==--.._
13:39:49 <int-e> . ^ . . ^ .
13:39:49 <int-e> \__a__/ \__b__/
13:39:56 <xa0> haha
13:40:04 <xa0> curves
13:40:12 <int-e> scale.
13:51:09 * FireFly hands izalove some ┌── ──┐
13:51:17 <izalove> noo
13:51:26 <izalove> get that utf8 off me
13:51:37 <FireFly> aww
13:52:05 <izalove> i even use alias tree='tree --charset fail'
13:52:11 <FireFly> I think I would use .-- --. over /-- --\
13:52:16 <izalove> ok
13:52:32 <FireFly> Hm you really dislike Unicode eh
13:52:40 <FireFly> well, box-drawing chars at least
13:52:51 <xa0> why would anyone ever use anything that isn't utf8
13:53:05 <xa0> i can understand keeping to keyboard characters, but still encode it in utf8 you troglodyte
14:00:48 <b_jonas> xa0: wait, I can answer that one
14:03:57 <b_jonas> xa0: I'm young enough to not have had used all the strange iso-646-* and other mangled charsets that put accented letters to @[\]`{|}. Instead, when I started working with computers, accented letters were properly at high bytes.
14:05:13 <xa0> lol
14:05:31 <b_jonas> cp437 was universal, because for a while it was burnt into the video card rom of every PC, although at that time most PCs had a VGA card where you could change the font, we just stuck to the cp437 which didn't require changing fonts, and the CWI charset had an unambiguous encoding for all the letters, and was optimized to make it look as good as possible on cp437 if you don't change the font.
14:05:49 <b_jonas> So since all the documents were in CWI, even when we did change the font, we just used CWI.
14:06:19 <xa0> hm, fair enough
14:06:51 <b_jonas> Then DOS 6.20 or 6.22 came along, and came with a built-in MODE command that loaded a font and changed what characters were allowed in filenames (seriously, if you didn't MODE to the right codepage, you couldn't even open the existing files that had accented letters in it).
14:07:32 <int-e> hmm there are no horizontal counterparts for ⎧⎨⎩
14:07:34 <b_jonas> But that supported only the 852 (and 850 for western europe) charsets, which differed from CWI in the placement of some characters,
14:08:01 <b_jonas> and was actually worse because some of the letters trampled on useful corner box drawing characters, so the boxes in Norton Commander looked ugly if you used it,
14:08:19 <b_jonas> but still, it was what DOS supported, so it became the standard, and we wrote all the text in the 852 character set.
14:09:09 <b_jonas> Then windows 3 came along, with its fancy windows bitmap fonts and true type fonts, and those fonts were encoded in the cp1250 charset (and cp1252 for western europe and cp1251 for cyrillic).
14:09:47 <b_jonas> Obviously everyone wanted to see accented characters in texts in windows and winword and excel, so even when they wrote plain text, they wrote everything in cp1252.
14:10:10 <b_jonas> You could no longer show cp1252 on text console, but still, everyone wanted to use windows and winword, so they just stuck to cp1252.
14:10:15 <b_jonas> and cp1250
14:10:18 <b_jonas> you know
14:10:28 <int-e> I hated CP 850, I used CP 437.
14:11:03 <int-e> (But I forgot why... did some line drawing characters get reused for letters in CP850?)
14:11:15 <b_jonas> And then unix came along, and for some historical reasons, the unix people preferred iso-8859-2 over cp1250, and the two were sort of similar, but not quite the same. All the Hungarian letters were at the same place, but the Polish letters got moved,
14:11:26 <b_jonas> and the smart quotes and long dash and ellipsis disappeared.
14:11:50 <b_jonas> But still, the unix people liked it and unix machines came with fonts for it and stuff, so we used iso-8859-2.
14:11:55 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's what I said above
14:12:18 <FireFly> b_jonas: my favourite is ASCII symbols being designed for overstriking, like a` → à, c, → ç, a^ → â etc
14:12:30 <FireFly> especially the less intuitive ones, like comma as cedilla
14:12:35 <b_jonas> So anyway, after a while, utf-8 came along, and people said I should encode stuff in utf-8, but at that time I got tired of all the changes, so I just stuck to iso-8859-2 (including in terminals) for quite a while.
14:12:52 <b_jonas> I did eventually adopt utf-8 for most of the stuff, but quite late.
14:13:24 <b_jonas> xa0: so that's the long story of why everyone doesn't use utf-8, even though is obviously the best encoding and the only one you should use, just like all the previous ones were.
14:14:40 <xa0> heh
14:14:49 <xa0> fair enough i guess.
14:15:02 <int-e> and inefficient for man CJK characters
14:15:18 <int-e> *many
14:16:34 <b_jonas> Once, I've even read a very old book that taught programming BASIC on some particular then popular pre-IBM-PC PC, the internationalized variant of it, which used some strange modified commodore-like charset, so in the book, instead of PRINT#, the command for printing to a file handle was shown as PRINTÉ.
14:17:15 <b_jonas> That's not even the ISO-646-* encoding, mind you, that's not surprising in a commodore64-like machine where the default charset doesn't have lowercase characters.
14:17:32 <b_jonas> The ISO-646-HU doesn't replace #, it replaces @[\].
14:18:09 <b_jonas> I haven't actually seen that particular PC in real life though; the Commodore 64 I used a bit (for games, not yet programming) wasn't a nationalized one.
14:18:27 <FireFly> int-e: true, and I suppose why SJIS is still popular
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14:23:13 <b_jonas> And I do still have non-utf8 files along. If you check my homepage, you'll find that in half the pages, the HTML is iso-8859-2 encoded, though of course the browser handles that transparently.
14:23:21 <b_jonas> I just never changed them, because why bother?
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15:36:12 <shachaf> fizzie: tdh
15:36:35 <shachaf> fizzie: Though it doesn't show days with 0 edits, which would probably make recent quotes edits look even more sparse.
15:47:14 <fizzie> Months.
15:47:21 <fizzie> But yes.
15:47:45 <shachaf> fizzie: most fancy tools that read from disk start with D hth
15:48:20 <shachaf> Oh, never mind, it's months.
15:48:44 <fizzie> I was thinking it'd be noisy if it were days.
15:49:56 <shachaf> Yes.
15:50:28 <shachaf> You could use base 1 instead of base 10 for the numbers.
15:50:40 <fizzie> I'm not sure PostgreSQL has a function for that.
15:51:35 <fizzie> Oh, wasn't thinking -- of course there is, it's called lpad.
15:51:57 <shachaf> repeat(string text, number int)
15:52:10 <fizzie> Oh, that's even more obviouser.
15:54:08 <shachaf> One of the troubles with histograms is that you have to pick boundaries.
15:54:47 <fizzie> You can just use Gaussian mixture models instead.
15:54:53 <fizzie> Then you have to pick the number of components.
15:56:04 <shachaf> I saw a presentation about a continuous variant of histograms and various other visualization things once.
15:56:19 <shachaf> I think it was based on http://adereth.github.io/oneoff/Mode%20Trees.pdf
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16:09:44 <\oren\> wow, the plQad is being proposed for unicode inclusion again
16:09:58 <\oren\> http://web.meson.org/downloads/pIqaDReturns.pdf
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16:16:18 <ais523> is there ever a legitimate reason to send an email with no To: address (not even "undisclosed-recipients")?
16:16:33 <ais523> because a decent proportion of the spam I get has no To: and I'm considering just blocking it
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16:26:06 <\oren\> I don't even know HOW
16:26:24 <\oren\> how do you een do that
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16:28:30 <ais523> most email clients won't let you do it
16:28:35 <ais523> you can hand-deliver an email with no To: line
16:28:45 <ais523> actually an email doesn't actually need any headers at all
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16:29:07 <ais523> although the chance of passing a spam check under those circumstances is low
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16:40:44 <shachaf> fizzie: Rather than modifications it should count the number of quotes added, I guess.
16:40:50 <shachaf> Probably negative in some months.
16:41:38 <fizzie> Actually it counts just the number of `addquote commands, not really all modifications.
16:44:38 <int-e> ais523: I may be missing something, but RFCs 5321 and 5322 do not seem to mandate a To: header in the message body...
16:45:40 <ais523> int-e: do they mandate any headers?
16:45:56 <shachaf> Oh, you're using IRC logs.
16:46:27 <ais523> arguably Received: is always going to be there but that one isn't added by the sender
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17:01:34 <int-e> ais523: yes, that tracing information is mandated... that's the only thing I see
17:01:42 <b_jonas> HALP! in git, how do I reset a file delete that's already in the index? shouldn't git reset --filename work
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17:02:42 <ais523> b_jonas: is the file in the working directory? or is it deleted from both the working directory and index?
17:03:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I'd try git checkout HEAD file
17:04:58 <xa0> i think you'd need a hard reset for that
17:05:04 <int-e> but hmm, the reset... needs a --hard, perhaps?
17:05:11 <xa0> see
17:05:15 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not in the working directory either. it's only in the HEAD.
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17:05:33 <b_jonas> int-e: git reset --hard would be bad, since there are other modified files
17:05:41 <ais523> b_jonas: you need to reset the file to get it back into the index, then checkout the file to get it into the working tree
17:05:41 <b_jonas> I want this selectively on just two files
17:06:19 <ais523> you can use git reset -p and git checkout -p to get a darcs-like interface, that's easier to use than git's
17:06:26 <int-e> "After running git reset <paths> to update the index entry, you can use git-checkout(1) to check the contents out of the index to the working tree."
17:06:33 <b_jonas> ais523: right, but why did reset fail? I tried to help my coworker with git, and he tried a git reset (and insists he copied the filename wrong), and reset says it doesn't know of that path
17:06:35 <b_jonas> wait, let me try this locally to check if reset indeed works
17:06:49 <b_jonas> maybe the filename WAS wrong despite what my coworker said
17:07:02 <ais523> also make sure you're in the root of the repo
17:07:12 <b_jonas> I think a reset should put the file back to the index
17:07:12 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I did make that sure
17:07:14 <ais523> otherwise it can be a bit confusing as to whether the filename's relative to the repo route or the current directory
17:07:20 <int-e> b_jonas: git reset doesn't touch the working directory. (but you're right, --hard doesn't seem to apply to the git reset -- paths variant)
17:07:39 <b_jonas> I'll try a simple testcase in my local machine
17:07:39 <b_jonas> int-e: I know, I can git checkout after
17:07:45 <b_jonas> the problem was that the reset failed
17:08:55 <int-e> anyway, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2125710/how-to-revert-a-git-rm-r lists all the options discussed above :P and a few stupid ones.
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17:09:23 <b_jonas> git reset does work
17:09:34 <b_jonas> in that case my working hypothesis is that he just copied the filename wrong
17:09:53 <b_jonas> sorry then
17:10:47 <int-e> http://www.f15ijp.com/2012/06/git-undo-git-rm-on-one-file/ suggests the git checkout HEAD ... variant. but maybe that's enough redundant googling for me.
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18:40:49 <jeffl35> :(){ :|:& };:
18:41:40 <jeffl35> :(){ :|:|echo lol& };:
18:41:52 <quintopia> sup jeff
18:43:56 <jeffl35> hi
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18:52:20 <ais523> `` :(){ :|:&ps };:
18:52:21 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
18:52:33 <ais523> `` :(){ :|:&; ps; };:
18:52:34 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `:(){ :|:&; ps; };:'
18:52:43 <ais523> hmm
18:52:49 <ais523> `` :(){ ps; :|:& };:
18:52:50 <HackEgo> No output.
18:55:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Narcissus * New user account
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19:28:26 <izalove> apparently the recent earthquakes in italy are god's punishment for civil unions
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19:39:50 <moonheart08> izalove, that makes no sense
19:40:53 <izalove> it was said by someon on a famous italian christian radio station
19:41:16 <moonheart08> atheist bias: dude that makes no sense
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20:34:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is æ an evil name for a variable?
20:34:56 <myname> yes
20:35:15 <hppavilion[1]> (Perhaps it should be assumed æ := a*e (e as in ln)?)
20:35:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Or maybe æ = e**a, as that's a far more common operation...)
20:35:55 <myname> you just shouldn't use nonascii characters in variable names if you ever want other people to even read your code
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20:48:33 <FireFly> Why didn't anybody tell Iverson that
20:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> Ø (with some element ø) would be a good name for a nonempty set...
20:48:35 <shachaf> Bye FireFly
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20:48:35 <shachaf> BuyerFly
20:48:35 <FireFly> I'm leaving? :o
20:48:35 <FireFly> Hm
20:48:35 <shachaf> BuyerFly and SellerFly / Agreed to have a battle; / For SellerFly said BuyerFly / Had spoiled his nice new rattle.
20:48:35 <FireFly> I guess the trees are leaving this time of the year
20:48:36 <shachaf> They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall.
20:48:36 <FireFly> I see.
20:48:36 <FireFly> I like it
20:48:36 <shachaf> That's a quote from a book I haven't read.
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21:12:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50113&oldid=50111 * Enoua5 * (+0)
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21:40:45 <ais523> neat, Baby Language got interpreted
21:40:45 <quintopia> :\
21:40:56 <quintopia> oh yeah that guy
21:42:12 <quintopia> you didnt really specify it enough to be interpretable
21:42:19 <quintopia> but it is anyway
21:44:42 <PinealGlandOptic> Hi everyone! I've got an unknown function, working like this (C/C++): void func(int a[6]) { for (int i=0; i<6; i++) a[i]=a[i]/6; }; what it is for, some kind of normalization, or?..
21:44:46 <PinealGlandOptic> Why would anyone divide each element of vector by vector size?
21:45:16 <xa0> "func(int a[6])"
21:45:16 <ais523> I don't think there's enough information to tell
21:45:24 <ais523> it may be a conincidence that the two 6s are the same
21:45:34 <PinealGlandOptic> unlikely...
21:45:36 <ais523> xa0: that's valid syntax, the 6 is just a suggestion though
21:45:45 <ais523> it doesn't actually do anything, and you can pass an array of a different size
21:45:47 <xa0> interesting
21:45:59 <PinealGlandOptic> xa0: yes, kind of self-documentation
21:46:07 <xa0> fair enough
21:46:10 <ais523> C99 introduced the syntax void func(int a[static 6])
21:46:22 <ais523> which asserts that the array is exactly six elements long (or possibly at least six elements long)
21:46:38 <ais523> and the compiler's allowed to miscompile the program if it's shorter
21:46:41 <xa0> that's ..bizarre, but kinda cool
21:46:52 <xa0> a form of dependent typing i guess
21:46:56 <ais523> I think that's to allow optimizations which wouldn't otherwise be possible, like reading ahead in the array
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22:02:13 <fizzie> Yes. There's an example or two in the C99 rationale document.
22:02:28 <fizzie> It's somewhat similar to restrict.
22:03:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:03:55 <fizzie> In fact, the example is a void fadd(double a[static restrict 10], double b[static restrict 10]) { ... } where the compiler is allowed to freely reorder the loads and stores of the elements of a and b.
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22:06:04 <ais523> fizzie: I can see why restrict would do that, but why is static needed?
22:06:18 <zzo38> I found there is another special case I did not yet consider in my GURPS character point total calculation program, for Delusions, now I will add that one.
22:06:24 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, it's because of the part I omitted.
22:06:34 <fizzie> ais523: The actual function stops at the first nonnegative element.
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22:34:47 <xa0> xa0:
22:35:08 <ais523> did you just ping yourself?
22:35:13 <xa0> tried to
22:35:18 <xa0> pls help
22:36:59 <xa0> ais523: can you ping me
22:37:10 <ais523> xa0: ping
22:37:17 <xa0> darn
22:37:29 <ais523> ask the bots if you need pings
22:37:38 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!xao: ping!
22:37:38 <fungot> xao: ping!
22:37:50 <xa0> ah, cool!
22:37:53 <ais523> err, you're actually xa0
22:37:53 <ais523> but close enough
22:37:58 <xa0> heh, yeah
22:38:05 <ais523> you can ping yourself in a wide range of esolangs :-D
22:38:19 <xa0> that's extended brainfuck, right
22:38:53 <ais523> it's a brainfuck cat program
22:38:55 <ais523> then after the ! comes the input to it
22:39:11 <xa0> ahh
22:39:16 <xa0> fair enough!
22:40:08 <ais523> `! bf_txtgen xa0: ping!
22:40:16 <HackEgo> 105 ++++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>.>+.>>.++++++++++.<----.<<--------.>++++++++.<--.>--.>+. [192]
22:40:28 <ais523> ^bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>.>+.>>.++++++++++.<----.<<--------.>++++++++.<--.>--.>+.
22:40:28 <fungot> xa0: ping!
22:40:50 <xa0> :P
22:41:43 <xa0> `! bf_txtgen xa0:
22:41:49 <HackEgo> 72 ++++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>++++>+++<<<<-]>.>+.>.++++++++++.>----. [577]
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22:43:16 <xa0> ^bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>++++>+++<<<<-]>.>+.>.++++++++++.>----.
22:43:16 <fungot> xa0:
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22:47:04 <ais523> ooh, I like Memfractal
22:47:14 <ais523> and believe it's TC
22:48:51 <fizzie> Maybe fungot should prefix the babble with the name it's answering to.
22:48:51 <fungot> fizzie: we've been married quite a few
22:48:55 <fizzie> Oh, it does.
22:49:03 <fizzie> See, you can get a ping without having to actually do anything.
22:50:34 <fizzie> Of course there's always Underload as well, if you want it simple.
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22:54:48 <myname> "some recipes call for vegetable stock which i've never made since i've never been able to find vegetable bones" :D
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22:57:39 <zzo38> The ! between the program and input is a common convention for brainfuck but I prefer the convention that ] is used instead; it has the advantage to be compatible with standard brainfuck.
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23:22:54 <Notebook> Hi!
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23:27:08 <fizzie> Bye.
23:33:21 <shachaf> fizzie: the joke was about software whose name starts with D and also ends with D
23:36:49 <fizzie> Yeah, that's not in particular something I feel I miss.
23:37:55 <shachaf> how about C, or B
23:37:57 <shachaf> i,i or A
23:38:37 <zzo38> I implemented program for doing GURPS dice by computer; you can do: Success, Damage, Quick Contest, Regular Contest. You can look at the codes to see its working, to learn a few things about it without having to buy the book (although you should look in book if you want more explanation of it)
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23:43:18 <zzo38> It doesn't say what happen if you hit by less than zero or miss by less than zero, so I assumed that if you hit or miss by less than zero then you hit or miss by zero instead (the only possibility to miss by zero is to roll a natural 17 or 18 on three dice, and such case is usually missing by more than zero anyways)
23:50:45 <zzo38> My domain name will not be fixed until later tonight
23:55:36 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Rational-coefficient complexes (a+bi for b, i in \QQ) in bijective base 2... mmm...)
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2016-11-05
00:00:37 <xa0> *b,a?
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00:08:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: bijective base 2 still cannot express all rationals in finite terms, i would believe.
00:08:56 <oerjan> also i mind that a strange mixture of considerations.
00:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm talking in the proof-that-Q-is-countable way
00:10:13 <hppavilion[1]> Arrange a grid of rationals m/n where m counts up through the integers from 0 [0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3...] as you go to the right and n counts up the wholes [1, 2, 3...] as you go down
00:10:23 <hppavilion[1]> Then count along the down-and-to-the-left diagonals
00:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, but that isn't quite bijective because of the values like 1/2, 2/4, 3/6, etc...)
00:13:11 <oerjan> *i think. although not successfully, it seems.
00:14:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yeah you need to drop repetitions.
00:15:03 <int-e> > fix ((1:).(>>=ap(:)(return.recip).(1+))) :: [Rational]
00:15:08 <lambdabot> [1 % 1,2 % 1,1 % 2,3 % 1,1 % 3,3 % 2,2 % 3,4 % 1,1 % 4,4 % 3,3 % 4,5 % 2,2 %...
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00:15:56 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, or somehow iterate over the set of 2-tuples of bags of primes with intersection {}...
00:16:09 <hppavilion[1]> Ø would be a good name for a variable in set theory >:)
00:17:30 <int-e> (there's this wonderful "binary" enumeration of positive rational numbers)
00:17:35 <oerjan> int-e seems to have written what i was going to mention.
00:18:01 <oerjan> :t ap(:)(return.recip).(1+)
00:18:04 <lambdabot> Fractional b => b -> [b]
00:18:53 <int-e> ap(:)((:[]).(1/)) would have been shorter, but I wasn't golfing.
00:19:28 <int-e> and `recip` is nicely obscure :)
00:19:31 <oerjan> :t sequence[id,recip].(1+)
00:19:33 <lambdabot> Fractional b => b -> [b]
00:20:35 <int-e> heh, too readable.
00:21:42 <int-e> > succ (1/2) :: Rational -- silly class instances...
00:21:44 <lambdabot> 3 % 2
00:23:08 <int-e> ah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern%E2%80%93Brocot_tree
00:23:23 <int-e> (I forgot the name)
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00:24:17 <int-e> of course that's another one, also beautiful.
00:25:12 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calkin%E2%80%93Wilf_tree is the one implemented in the enumeration... and I don't recognize the names.
00:25:46 <int-e> no.
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00:30:41 <oerjan> int-e: the latter doesn't look quite the same either
00:30:42 <int-e> > fix((1:).sequence[(1+),(1/).(1+).(1/)]) :: [Rational]
00:30:45 <lambdabot> error:
00:30:45 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘Ratio Integer’ with ‘[Rational]’
00:30:45 <lambdabot> Expected type: [Rational] -> [Rational]
00:30:59 <int-e> > fix((1:).(>>=sequence[(1+),(1/).(1+).(1/)])) :: [Rational]
00:31:01 <lambdabot> [1 % 1,2 % 1,1 % 2,3 % 1,2 % 3,3 % 2,1 % 3,4 % 1,3 % 4,5 % 3,2 % 5,5 % 2,3 %...
00:31:21 <int-e> oerjan: indeed... *that* is the latter.
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00:40:25 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: nowadays we would space-separate a wisdom entry like that <-- `wisdom sentences are not `quote messages hth
00:43:28 <shachaf> oerjan: the wisdom entry name hth
00:43:35 <shachaf> `le/rn quote format
00:44:17 <shachaf> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/28821/regex-that-only-matches-itself
00:44:25 <oerjan> shachaf: ic. well elliott made it with several names.
00:45:16 <oerjan> shachaf: ah a regex narcissist
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00:49:15 <oerjan> boileyb
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00:52:01 <boily> boileyb?
00:52:06 <boily> bonsœrjan.
00:52:23 <oerjan> ?desufnoc
00:52:24 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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00:53:33 <boily> .hdt
00:53:38 <boily> mhelloony.
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00:59:28 <boily> `wisdom
00:59:28 <boily> tonight, I found a place that serves tteokbokki! ^^
00:59:28 <HackEgo> victoria//Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest.
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00:59:28 <oerjan> `dowg victoria
00:59:28 <HackEgo> 7390:2016-04-14 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn victoria/Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest. \ 7389:2016-04-14 <oerjän> learn Victoria was the most victorious queen the world has ever known.
00:59:28 <oerjan> slowego
00:59:28 * boily mapoles some speed into HackEgo
00:59:35 <oerjan> i forget how hppavilion[1] convinced me not to `revert that, but i think there was a reason.
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01:00:30 <boily> itym Her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India.
01:00:55 <oerjan> that i did. i'm not sure whether hppavilion[1] did, though.
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01:02:26 <boily> not a problem, afatpdfic.
01:03:12 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hppavellon[1]. is the Queen your Queen?
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01:05:01 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No, but in the event of a Trump victory she may soon be
01:05:10 <hppavilion[1]> (A Hillary victory isn't that appealing either, though...)
01:06:23 <boily> move north! it's good for you! it has traditional phở!
01:07:11 <hppavilion[1]> boily: itym east hth
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01:08:13 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Except in part of the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut.
01:09:43 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Oh, and maybe the northernmost parts of Quebec and Newfoundland (which is the most likely destination for my Faðer), depending on how this projection works
01:11:40 <boily> Minnesota? East is a good approximation.
01:12:46 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Alaska.
01:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> hth.
01:14:40 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is Doctor Strange marketed in Germany with "Doktor" or with "Artze"? )
01:15:17 <boily> right. I completely failed. I shall commit mapole seppuku. mappuku.
01:15:43 <boily> we still have soup. warm, tasty soup.
01:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Also, I'm not sure Canada is far enough away from President Trump...
01:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I was actually hoping to get the state to secede and join the UK :P
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01:17:03 <hppavilion[1]> (In retrospect, joining Canada makes more sense...)
01:22:51 <boily> fungot: do you make sense?
01:22:51 <fungot> boily: uh calculator or something else like most of his day care or you know
01:22:59 * boily pats fungot on the... head?
01:22:59 <fungot> boily: i'm definitely for it and everybody signs their name and address in it until and when it gets full then they return it back home to you so you at least you do some so laughter
01:23:16 * boily signs the fungot-patting-guestbook
01:23:16 <fungot> boily: i can't remember
01:23:29 <boily> fungot: I do. you're fungot, I'm boily. me sane, you Jane.
01:23:29 <fungot> boily: ( ( mm noise)) i've ( ( wanted)) to talk to
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01:29:17 <myname> hppavilion[1]: "Artze" doesn't make any sense as a word
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01:29:46 <myname> that's not a word
01:30:18 <myname> also, it is doktor because you name him
01:30:41 <boily> mynartzello.
01:31:20 <myname> there is arzt with the plural ärzte
01:37:00 <quintopia> coily
01:37:16 <boily> quinthellopia.
01:37:44 <quintopia> how life?
01:38:33 <quintopia> huh. sbux espresso cloud ipa is p good
01:40:25 <quintopia> fungot: do u like ipa?
01:40:25 <fungot> quintopia: ( ( but uh)) like how much it was more fun to teach laughter um
01:40:47 <quintopia> fungot: do u still fnord?
01:40:47 <fungot> quintopia: i- mn no m- it kind of fnord
01:40:56 <quintopia> :D
01:41:22 <boily> :D
01:42:02 <quintopia> ^botsnack
01:42:03 <fungot> Oh nom nom nom!
01:42:15 <boily> life: tteokbokki is good, Captain Sonar is good, burritos are good.
01:43:40 <quintopia> speaking of that
01:43:50 <quintopia> had dinner at bbq takorea
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01:43:57 <quintopia> if you cant tell
01:43:59 <boily> oh! what did you at?
01:44:12 <quintopia> that means korean-mexican fusion
01:44:24 * boily groans at the pun
01:44:35 <quintopia> sushi had the bibimbap burrito
01:44:42 <quintopia> i had spicy ramyuns
01:45:14 <quintopia> they gave a free bbq taco too.
01:45:48 <quintopia> what is capt sonar
01:46:21 <boily> sounds tasty!
01:47:04 <boily> it's a wonderful boardgame! two teams or four players are playing real-time battleship, with explosions and stupid things happening :D
01:48:02 <quintopia> fun
01:48:07 <boily> https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/171131/captain-sonar
01:48:29 <quintopia> i had a good gaming last saturday
01:48:59 <quintopia> huge round of spaceteam, followed by a few attempts to game the game (failed)
01:49:08 <quintopia> ten people at once
01:50:29 <boily> !
01:51:06 <quintopia> spaceteam is the best
01:51:15 <quintopia> you ever play?
01:51:42 <quintopia> the card game?
01:52:11 <quintopia> its as loud as Pit, but crazier
01:52:53 <boily> nope, but you got me at "crazier".
01:54:20 <quintopia> what about spyfall?
01:54:38 <boily> I suck at Spyfall, but I love the game ^^
01:55:09 <boily> I couldn't pour credibility out of a boot.
01:57:23 <boily> time to reconcile a mattress...
01:57:29 <quintopia> good luck
01:57:36 <quintopia> bon nuily
01:57:37 <boily> bonnnuitopia!
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02:04:10 <shachaf> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/253703/integral-of-a-sin-omial-coefficients-binomial
02:15:58 <Jafet> interestinomials
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02:49:17 <moony> ![?])[?]
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03:02:11 <Cale> shachaf: http://play.prismata.net/?r=lY4Wf-SThsB lol turn 11
03:03:23 <myname> flash is still a thing?
03:05:00 <Cale> yep
03:07:25 <Cale> It's a bit sad that this is all written in ActionScript rather than something saner... it's one of the best strategy games I've ever played.
03:11:02 <shachaf> Cale: It's probably not a good idea, but I often go for 4x Symbiote anyway.
03:11:14 <shachaf> I just like setting them all off.
03:12:30 <oerjan> @ask izalove <izalove> on a scale from klingon to emoji, how readable is [...] <-- wait, which end is the readable one?
03:12:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:20:13 <oerjan> `? oop
03:20:22 <HackEgo> oop? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:20:27 <oerjan> r.i.p. HackEgo speed
03:21:16 <shachaf> research in potion
03:22:25 <oerjan> `learn OOP (Obligatory Opportunistic Pun) is a popular technique for naming things, thus solving zero of the hard problems in computer science.
03:22:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'oop': OOP (Obligatory Opportunistic Pun) is a popular technique for naming things, thus solving zero of the hard problems in computer science.
03:22:42 <shachaf> oops
03:22:50 <oerjan> hm?
03:22:53 <oerjan> `? oops
03:22:56 <HackEgo> OOP (Obligatory Opportunistic Pun) is a popular technique for naming things, thus solving zero of the hard problems in computer science.
03:23:35 <oerjan> looks fine to me hth
03:24:04 <shachaf> When you pun without noticing it, those puns aren't oops, right?
03:24:18 <shachaf> `? klein bottle
03:24:20 <HackEgo> A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside.
03:24:39 <shachaf> `? oerjan
03:24:42 <HackEgo> Your revertebrate itymologist gnite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:24:43 <oerjan> `learn OOPS (Obligatory Oblivious PunS) is a variant of OOP.
03:24:47 <HackEgo> Relearned 'oop': OOPS (Obligatory Oblivious PunS) is a variant of OOP.
03:24:50 <oerjan> oops
03:24:56 <oerjan> OKAY
03:24:59 <oerjan> `revert
03:25:09 <shachaf> `learn is confusing hth
03:25:14 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:25:29 <oerjan> `le/rn oops/OOPS (Obligatory Oblivious PunS) is a variant of OOP.
03:25:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'oops': OOPS (Obligatory Oblivious PunS) is a variant of OOP.
03:25:50 <shachaf> i,i Obligatory Oblivious Pun Syndrome
03:27:05 <Jafet> oopsla oriented programming
03:29:16 <shachaf> Cale: now that rethinkdb is shut down are you going to start a database startup twh
03:46:13 * pikhq curses, loudly.
03:46:32 <pikhq> I have successfully gone from having all but 1 Pokemon in my living dex to all but 543 in my living dex.
03:47:02 <ais523> pikhq: new generation?
03:47:07 <ais523> also, which were you missing?
03:47:28 <shachaf> `? pokemon
03:47:32 <HackEgo> A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket.
03:47:42 <shachaf> `cwlprits pokemon
03:47:44 <pikhq> No, I corrupted my save when I was trying to *back up* the living dex. And I apparently didn't have a prior backup.
03:47:55 <HackEgo> tsweẗt
03:47:55 <FireFly> :(
03:47:56 <pikhq> Meloetta.
03:48:13 <shachaf> `learn_append pokemon Taneb invented them.
03:48:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'pokemon': A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket. Taneb invented them.
03:48:55 <FireFly> as in back up a savefile?
03:48:58 <pikhq> Yes.
03:49:05 <shachaf> `? password
03:49:07 <FireFly> annoying
03:49:07 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Bierstubë.
03:49:09 <shachaf> `dowg password
03:49:19 <HackEgo> 9130:2016-10-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is Bierstub\xc3\xab. \ 9030:2016-09-12 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is au c\xc5\x93ur de septembre \ 8887:2016-08-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is Strindberg \ 8877:2016-07-29 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is late. \ 8508:2016-06-17 <oerjän> lear
03:49:30 <FireFly> out of curiosity though, how did you try to back it up that caused it to get corrupted? would be nice to avoid
03:49:45 <shachaf> oerjan: What do you think of dowg1 etc. which only shows the latest edit, and thereby doesn't fill up the channel so much?
03:49:55 <pikhq> FireFly: Hacked 3DS with a save manager app.
03:50:03 <FireFly> Ah
03:50:28 <Cale> shachaf: heh, well, Obsidian Systems might eventually go in that direction... but it's going to be gradual
03:51:40 <shachaf> what do you think of the way bigtable etc. work
03:52:01 <pikhq> TLDR, fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
03:52:04 <shachaf> that sort of thing isn't a persistent data structure but it does rely on immutability
03:52:08 -!- ais523 has quit.
03:52:15 <Cale> I haven't looked closely at BigTable
03:52:22 <FireFly> Yep, that sucks :\
03:52:43 <Cale> But I want *more* types in my tables
03:52:46 <FireFly> I think I dumped savegames when I decided to dump my physical games, and I ~believe~ that didn't corrupt them at least
03:52:49 <pikhq> And the save I corrupted was Y, so now if I wanna catch 'em again in there, I have to replay *that* one.
03:53:13 <Cale> shachaf: I was thinking it would be really fun to have a database where your table types could be like dependent telescopes
03:53:17 <pikhq> FireFly: The problem is, I accidentally overwrote my Y save with some *completely different* save.
03:53:29 <FireFly> Ah
03:53:31 <FireFly> :(
03:53:48 <Cale> shachaf: So the types of subsequent columns depend on the values of previous ones :)
03:53:55 <shachaf> Cale: Well, really I just mean e.g. LevelDB, though an advantage of this sort of thing is that it's "relatively" easy to do sharding etc.
03:54:01 * pikhq would actually *appreciate* replaying ORAS...
03:54:18 <shachaf> Of course BigTable does have various issues.
03:54:31 <FireFly> pikhq: are you sure the game doesn't store a backup save in a separate partition? though the read/write in this case might write over "both partitions" since they aren't really partitions per se
03:54:37 <pikhq> I checked.
03:54:41 <FireFly> ah
03:54:44 <Cale> But yeah, I would settle for good support for sum types :P
03:54:49 <shachaf> Cale: Well, types belong on a different level of abstraction from storage probably.
03:55:05 <shachaf> Cale: What do you think of the thing that e.g. protocol buffers do with regard to backwards compatibility?
03:55:28 <Cale> The other thing I want is the ability to register queries with the DB and be notified with a diff when any commit will cause the result of a registered query to change
03:55:32 <shachaf> Usually Haskell people like making their types as small as possible, so they exactly represent the values that are possible and no others.
03:55:43 <tswett> `? pokemons
03:55:45 <HackEgo> A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket. Taneb invented them.
03:55:48 <tswett> `? fishs
03:55:49 <shachaf> Cale: RethinkDB had that feature!
03:55:50 <HackEgo> Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
03:55:54 <Cale> shachaf: yeah
03:55:54 <tswett> `? sexs
03:55:57 <HackEgo> Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
03:56:00 <shachaf> Cale: Still has, I guess it's open source. AGPL, though.
03:56:04 <Cale> shachaf: Though, they didn't really have... types
03:56:07 <tswett> `? o
03:56:08 <HackEgo> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world,
03:56:11 <shachaf> Cale: Right.
03:56:31 <Cale> I don't want garbage in my DB
03:56:44 <shachaf> Anyway, protobufs are typed, and they even have sum types and things nowadays.
03:57:01 <shachaf> But a very important feature is that you can modify the software that uses them to add new features and retain backwards compatibility.
03:57:28 <shachaf> Since Haskell ADTs types are in-process only, people don't worry about that sort of thing.
03:57:51 <shachaf> But I wonder what people would come up with in this context.
03:58:43 <pikhq> Hrm. Clearly I should race my way through Y via "I have another same gen game" hax.
03:59:15 <pikhq> Or, eh. Maybe not.
03:59:41 <shachaf> Cale: Anyway, I was talking about the data structure (which is just a key-value store with various features), not the API.
04:00:07 <shachaf> Doesn't Spanner also use the same sorts of tablets etc.?
04:04:21 <Cale> shachaf: Yeah, the stuff which mainly concerns me are the API and query language
04:04:39 <shachaf> What do you think of Spanner?
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04:05:08 <Cale> shachaf: The storage model of, e.g. Postgres is really probably good enough for us for the foreseeable future -- it's just the stuff you have to go through to use it, and the effect doing that stuff has on the rest of the codebase which is annoying.
04:05:19 <shachaf> I like the thing where time() gives you an interval rather than a point.
04:05:29 <shachaf> Which of course is what you should do for anything that you can't measure precisely.
04:05:34 <shachaf> But for some reason people don't do it.
04:06:06 <Cale> I'd never heard of Spanner somehow
04:07:42 <pikhq> I don't think it's anywhere *near* as publicized as BigTable.
04:08:29 <Cale> Generally the stuff which is required to support extremely large distributed architectures ought to involve compromises which are in the opposite direction from what I'm looking for.
04:10:06 <shachaf> Well, Spanner tries to cleverly avoid some of those compromises.
04:10:32 <Cale> The dream is to be able to have something like Dynamic t (Query a) -> m (Dynamic t (Result a))
04:11:10 <Cale> (and Dynamic t (Query a) -> m (Event t (ResultDiff a))
04:11:16 <shachaf> What do you think of Backpack?
04:12:47 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/gnite //;s/gracious october/gneiss remember/
04:12:54 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your revertebrate itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
04:13:03 <shachaf> MWAHAHAHAHA
04:13:52 <shachaf> `? Cale
04:13:56 <HackEgo> Cale? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:14:09 <shachaf> Cale: sometimes i confuse you with deckard cain hth
04:16:36 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is ⛄
04:16:39 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is ⛄
04:17:26 <shachaf> `1 xxd wisdom/password
04:17:30 <HackEgo> 1/1:0000000: 5468 6520 7061 7373 776f 7264 206f 6620 The password of \ 0000010: 7468 6520 6d6f 6e74 6820 6973 20e2 9b84 the month is ... \ 0000020: 0a .
04:18:14 <shachaf> `unicode e2 9b 84
04:18:18 <HackEgo> No output.
04:18:27 <shachaf> what's the command for utf-8 decoding twh
04:19:05 <shachaf> > unwords . map (printf "%08b") $ [0xe2, 0x9b, 0x84]
04:19:08 <lambdabot> "11100010 10011011 10000100"
04:19:33 <shachaf> > "10011011000100" ^? binary
04:19:36 <lambdabot> Just 9924
04:19:42 <shachaf> > "10011011000100" ^? binary . re hex
04:19:45 <lambdabot> Just "26c4"
04:19:49 <shachaf> `unicode 26c4
04:19:51 <HackEgo> ​⛄
04:20:02 <shachaf> `` unidecode "$(unicode 26c4)"
04:20:06 <HackEgo> ​[U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
04:20:11 <shachaf> ok
04:20:16 <shachaf> that was too difficult tdnh
04:20:40 <shachaf> `? haiku
04:20:42 <HackEgo> ​🀨や⛄
04:20:57 <shachaf> `` unicode "$(\? haiku)"
04:21:02 <HackEgo> U+1F028 MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 80 a8 UTF-16BE: d83cdc28 Decimal: &#127016; \ 🀨 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA \ UTF-8: e3 82 84 UTF-16BE: 3084 Decimal: &#12420; \ や \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW \ UTF-8: e2 9b
04:21:14 <shachaf> `` unidecode "$(\? haiku)"
04:21:19 <HackEgo> ​[U+1F028 MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
04:21:35 <shachaf> `quote hiragana
04:21:37 <HackEgo> 1258) <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
04:21:56 <shachaf> Am I spamming the channel too much?
04:23:19 <pikhq> *shrug*
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04:29:26 <oerjan> oops
04:29:58 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/gracious/gneiss/;s/octo/remem/
04:30:01 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your revertebrate itymologist gneiss rememberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
04:31:27 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#revertebrate#revertable#
04:31:31 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your revertable itymologist gneiss rememberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
04:32:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> that was too difficult tdnh <-- you really can't cut and paste that char?
04:32:59 <shachaf> oerjan: it doesn't show up on my broken terminal hth
04:34:04 <oerjan> shocking
04:47:19 <hppavilion[1]> What
04:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> I'm back
04:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh? I might have remembered it wrong
04:49:11 <hppavilion[1]> (Please have mercy, oerjan)
04:49:25 <hppavilion[1]> It might have been Arze or something
04:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Or maybe I forgot an umlaut on the A...)
04:51:07 <oerjan> Ärtze is the plural.
04:51:38 <oerjan> oops
04:51:47 <oerjan> *Ärzte
04:52:32 <oerjan> huh from ἀρχίατρος
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05:07:24 <tswett> So I wrote this /// program.
05:07:27 <tswett> /t./.ttttt//.t/t\..........//t//t...
05:08:33 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it outputs 3*10^125 dots and then stops.
05:10:22 <tswett> Unrelated...
05:10:48 <tswett> Cale is dreaming about a dependently typed database, where the types of columns can depend on the values of previous columns.
05:11:15 <tswett> Meanwhile, I'm dreaming about a database where columns can have the type "boolean".
05:13:48 <tswett> Oh well. One of these years, Oracle may catch up with other 20th century programming systems.
05:15:03 * oerjan is pretty sure tswett is right
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05:26:36 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
05:27:26 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe the NFL should turn the bracket into a sort(), rather than a max()
05:28:17 <Cale> tswett: lol
05:28:56 <Cale> tswett: Well, I have the boolean thing with postgres, but we could split the difference and throw in Either, and I'd be quite happy
05:29:47 <alercah> `? Cale
05:29:48 <shachaf> Sum types would be too good for database users.
05:29:50 <HackEgo> Cale? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:30:24 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Just use a graph database htbs
05:34:23 <tswett> Implement Laser for me and then use Laser.
05:34:50 <tswett> Cale: have you heard of Spivak and Wisnesky's FQL family of database query languages?
05:37:01 <tswett> The query operators are really simple; they're based on adjoint functors.
05:37:07 <tswett> They're also really difficult to understand, for the same reason.
05:39:23 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Does it include type-neutral variable names formed by dropping characters twh
05:39:45 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: mmfm
05:40:05 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I'm sure that's a genre of porn.
05:40:15 <hppavilion[1]> (...that's what you were trying to say, right?)
05:40:33 <tswett> It's hard to imagine that not being a genre of porn.
05:40:51 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That statement is true forall values of that, tbh
05:47:06 <shachaf> "1" is way too overloaded in category speak.
05:47:57 <shachaf> I have a distinguished object 1 in a category C, represented by a functor from the singleton category 1 to C. So this functor should be called 1, right?
05:48:41 <shachaf> (1 is not necessarily a terminal object, even.)
05:50:11 <shachaf> There are two arrows : 1 -> _|_, called 0 and 1. They're represented by natural transformations, naturally called 0 and 1.
05:51:58 <oerjan> shachaf: assume that all those definitions are special cases of the first, then try to derive a contradiction hth
05:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> My favorite mathematical limerick is ⊤
05:52:40 <oerjan> `unidecode ⊤
05:52:43 <HackEgo> ​[U+22A4 DOWN TACK]
05:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's the reduced form.
05:53:17 <hppavilion[1]> (2197: Great Baker's Gross)
05:53:17 <oerjan> O KAY
05:55:40 <Elronnd> is it legitimate to make an esolang where code written in that lang is as hard to read as possible?
05:57:06 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Well, Malbolge is a legit esolang, so...
05:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Not to mention Whitespace)
05:57:20 <oerjan> Elronnd: pretty hard to beat the competition
05:57:22 <shachaf> whitespace is easy on the eyes
05:57:23 <Elronnd> true, I guess
05:57:50 <oerjan> /// with /\ only hth
05:58:07 <Elronnd> it uses base 11, but the digits used aren't 0-9, a
05:58:08 <oerjan> also Unary
05:58:16 <Elronnd> they're completely random
05:59:09 <zzo38> How good is the V8 JavaScript engine's random number generator? If it isn't very good, it can be replaced easily; you can write Math.random= whatever, and don't have to change the rest of the program.
05:59:11 <oerjan> Elronnd: hm i'd say it's scow if it's just because of obfuscated syntax/naming
05:59:45 <Elronnd> it uses "scow"?
06:00:06 <oerjan> it
06:00:09 <oerjan> argh
06:00:11 <Elronnd> s/it uses//g
06:00:18 <oerjan> `? scow
06:00:21 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
06:00:41 <Elronnd> wut
06:00:43 <zzo38> To write a test program in JavaScript to check for good quality, then you can compare with different JavaScript implementation as well as your own implementations written in JavaScript too just as well.
06:01:49 <Jafet> we already have enough real languages with hard-to-read code, let alone esoteric ones
06:02:47 <Elronnd> Jafet: name an esolang with *easy* to read code
06:02:51 <Elronnd> spl doesn
06:02:54 <Elronnd> 't count
06:03:10 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Brainfuck.
06:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Befunge
06:03:25 <oerjan> ORK
06:03:45 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: C
06:03:48 <Jafet> befunge is visually intuitive
06:04:19 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: how is c an esolang?
06:04:25 <Cale> tswett: Yes, and they're quite interesting, but I haven't had the time to examine them in really great detail. I really believe Spivak has the right idea about database schemas.
06:05:14 <Cale> (even though I haven't worked through everything they've done in the query language, the overall approach looks like the right one to me)
06:06:25 <tswett> Cale: this is where I plug my own language...
06:06:26 <tswett> https://laserdb.blogspot.com/
06:06:56 <tswett> Also inspired by category theory, but I know far less about category theory than Spivak et al.
06:07:15 <shachaf> why do you no so much about Spivak et al.
06:07:18 <shachaf> know
06:07:19 <shachaf> what
06:07:21 <shachaf> scow
06:07:53 <tswett> I'm hoping to borrow their ideas and incorporate them into my thing.
06:20:15 <Cale> tswett: Ryan Trinkle has this idea which Dan Haraj has been working a bit on implementing, to make a quasiquoter that parses (some significant fragment of) Haskell syntax and translates it into Control.Category and friends, and then the idea is to write instances for the category classes that generate SQL.
06:21:03 <Cale> and it ought to end up looking *something* a little along those lines... I think
06:21:28 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: A solid mathematical foundation? I think you mean gaseous, given that it's category theory
06:22:40 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I like the second one better hth
06:22:58 <tswett> The second what?
06:24:56 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The second query. You asked, so I answered.
06:25:40 <tswett> Ah. twhbhiiwftftiakta
06:26:12 <Elronnd> holy fuck I'm creating a monster
06:26:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Something that'd be really nice for looking at it mathematically, I think, is if it had a "sophisticated" Unicode notation along with the standard ASCII-compatible notation
06:26:37 <Elronnd> I...think my lang might be comparable to malbolge
06:27:27 <shachaf> that would have been helpful if i was free to finally talk in a klingon-themed accent
06:27:47 <shachaf> tswett confirmed alien
06:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: ...I'm stuck on "f"
06:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: kli̊ngòn?
06:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> (shachḁf is best chḁf)
06:33:43 <shachaf> do something useful and figure out an online algorithm for strongly connected components
06:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: iͥ needs to be fonted twh
06:35:35 <shachaf> Oren de La Fontaine
06:38:13 <hppavilion[1]> i͌quality
06:38:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/Fell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50114 * Elronnd * (+1695) Syntax and stuffs
06:39:09 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Oh no! Are you OK?
06:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> I heard you fell
06:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> <cow.org/csi>
06:39:39 <Elronnd> I'm alright
06:39:49 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, that's flash)
06:40:11 <Elronnd> can someone read over what I wrote there and make sure it isn't too unclear?
06:42:13 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: A lot of code in the article isn't in monospace. I disprove.
06:43:23 <Elronnd> I thought this wiki accepted the use of ` ` as monospace delimiters
06:43:37 <Elronnd> I'm about halfway done fixing it
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06:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/Fell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50115&oldid=50114 * Elronnd * (+154) fix syntax
06:49:22 <oerjan> `unidecode iͥ
06:49:27 <HackEgo> ​[U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0365 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER I]
06:49:34 <oerjan> wut
06:50:13 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: aside from that, though, anything I haven't made clear yet?
06:52:18 <shachaf> oerjan: oh man
06:52:22 <shachaf> that's a good way to write i,i
07:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes. In theory, it should be an 'i' with the tidle replaced with another 'i'
07:04:46 <shachaf> Cale: Is there any way to get access to the Prismata events against the computer?
07:07:54 <oerjan> `unidecode ıͥ
07:07:58 <HackEgo> ​[U+0131 LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS I] [U+0365 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER I]
07:08:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hth
07:08:16 <oerjan> wait, tidle?
07:08:22 <oerjan> THERE IS NOT TIDLE
07:08:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That doesn't render the same
07:08:33 <oerjan> the same as what?
07:08:39 <shachaf> oerjan: "tittle" hth
07:08:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Or, that doesn't render as expected
07:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: omgty
07:09:31 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The dots/tittles in 'i' and 'j' are removed and replaced when you apply a diacritic, traditionally
07:09:32 <oerjan> argh that's actually a word
07:09:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ?
07:10:43 <oerjan> "tittle". hth.
07:11:20 <shachaf> of course U+303 is called a tidle
07:11:38 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: tilde. tiltte.
07:12:27 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Law of analogies: a:A::b:B <-> a:b::A:B )
07:13:28 <hppavilion[1]> (AKA Notta's Analogy Transposition Theorem (NATT))
07:14:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: itym NTAT hth
07:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That is an alternative name, but I was still right. hth.
07:15:00 <oerjan> O AKY
07:17:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: aslo, yewm iytm hht.
07:17:35 * hppavilion[1] . ø Ø ( Why deos nobdoy eevr say "ytim" twnh )
07:18:14 <shachaf> sounds like an interchange law hth
07:18:18 <shachaf> https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/caac30a7a03a9304307fe2a7fd0127be2c5f0dc7
07:18:57 <shachaf> i bet there's some 2-categorical formalization of it
07:19:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, because : and :: are different
07:19:28 <shachaf> So are ∘_0 and ∘_1
07:20:45 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: In the link, the operators switch places
07:21:10 <shachaf> Oh, I guess the other ones don't.
07:21:16 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The first one has ring_0 inside the parentheses and ring_1 outside, the second has ring_1 inside and ring_0 outside
07:23:05 <shachaf> OK, sounds like, uh, a distributive of a thing I don't remember.
07:23:45 <shachaf> I guess a:A::b:B can mean a/A = b/B
07:23:52 <shachaf> In which case certainly a/b = A/B
07:24:48 <shachaf> But there's some algebraic thing I'm not remembering.
07:29:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: a, b = 0 tsnh.
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07:30:25 <oerjan> s,/,-,g hth
07:31:49 <shachaf> (A -> a) <-> (B -> b) <===> (b -> a) <-> (B -> A) ?
07:31:50 <hppavilion[1]> One COULD read p_0:q_0::p_1:q_1::...::p_k:q_k as \exists pred (pred(p_0, q_0) & pred(p_1, q_1) & ... & pred(p_k, q_k)), with pred presumably constrained to some set of rules
07:35:56 <oerjan> @check \a' a b' b -> (((a' :: Bool) <= a) == (b' <= b)) == ((b <= a) == (b' <= a'))
07:35:59 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests):
07:35:59 <lambdabot> False True True True
07:36:03 <oerjan> shachaf: NOPE
07:37:07 <shachaf> oerjan: well, i was just trying out something that was contravariant in one thing and covariant in the other
07:37:26 <shachaf> maybe it should be a&~A or something
07:37:43 <shachaf> is there an operator for \a b -> a && not b
07:38:05 <oerjan> by de morgan's law, you're not going to do much better with that
07:38:58 <oerjan> it's not(a -> b)
07:39:16 <shachaf> of course it's not (a -> b)
07:39:24 <shachaf> we already tried a -> b and found out that it doesn't work
07:39:52 * oerjan hammers shachaf into the ground ===\__/
07:40:01 <shachaf> Maybe some linear logic operators would do what I want?
07:40:08 <izalove> that's no hammer
07:40:09 <shachaf> Probably not.
07:40:25 <shachaf> That looks like the mallet to me.
07:40:35 <oerjan> the saucepan hth
07:40:43 <shachaf> the saucepan is malleable hth
07:41:00 <oerjan> damn straight ===\/\/
07:41:17 <shachaf> i,i damn bent
07:41:44 <shachaf> speaking of damnation did you ever read that short story by chiang
07:41:56 <oerjan> probably not.
07:42:13 <shachaf> http://will.tip.dhappy.org/revolution/Technoanarchist/plan/.../book/Ted%20Chiang%20-%20Hell%20Is%20The%20Absence%20Of%20God/
07:42:16 <shachaf> hth
07:43:06 <oerjan> iangtrthth
07:46:32 <shachaf> ok
07:46:38 <shachaf> would you read a one-page short story by chiang
07:46:50 <shachaf> published in Nature
07:47:04 <shachaf> it is http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7047/full/436150a.html
07:49:32 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> ooh, I like Memfractal <-- i tried thinking about it before. just four outer exits and one bit seemed _very_ cramped. not obviously impossible but something clever is needed...
07:49:33 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:50:13 <oerjan> shachaf: already seen
07:50:20 <shachaf> ok
07:52:03 <hppavilion[1]> 1A4 hehehe
07:54:38 <int-e> hell-o world.
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08:47:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50116&oldid=50098 * Slnetaiga * (+13) Added OOLANG
08:53:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOLANG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50117 * Slnetaiga * (+1048) Created
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09:32:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50123&oldid=50122 * Slnetaiga * (+244) Added Truth-machine example
09:41:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50124&oldid=50040 * Slnetaiga * (+120) Added oolang
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11:11:20 <boily> fungot: bon matin.
11:11:20 <fungot> boily: yep that's really scary it you know i what do you read
11:11:35 <boily> fungot: you scare me enough already as it is.
11:11:35 <fungot> boily: my name is
11:11:39 <boily> fungot: fungot.
11:11:39 <fungot> boily: i gotta good feeling this year alone to establish you know um and online i'm online quite a bit
11:11:47 <boily> fungot: yes you are.
11:11:47 <fungot> boily: but a rectangle should still be involved in soccer baseball everything is so fast paced that it's so easy to lose time and it it just takes a lot of
11:12:03 <boily> fungot: rectangle soccer baseball???
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11:27:07 <fizzie> boily: To be fair, a soccer field is a rectangle.
11:27:27 <fizzie> fungot: Use more punctuation, you're very hard to read.
11:27:27 <fungot> fizzie: and there's high school too and and i
11:28:03 <int-e> fizzie: look, it used an apostrophe... that's quite adbvanced.
11:31:36 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. I had this mental picture of a rectangular soccer ball.
11:31:59 <boily> fungot: no, high school is an illusion.
11:31:59 <fungot> boily: ah i'm sure you can probably hear like two sides of the country was really low it was like
11:38:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50131&oldid=50018 * Slnetaiga * (+69) Added oolang
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11:42:49 <fizzie> I don't think this corpus works so well.
11:42:53 <fizzie> ^style europarl
11:42:53 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
11