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00:33:52 <zzo38> It is a hardware programming language.
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00:41:50 <Sgeo> Why am I so tempted to buy a Kindle?
00:48:47 <Gregor> Sgeo: If you buy a Nook, you can root it and install the Kindle Android app.
00:49:24 <Sgeo> I want to unroot my Nook (if I can find it), but don't have a usable SD card slot thing
00:49:37 <Sgeo> Also, sounds like Kindle is more... sync-y than Nook
01:18:06 <Sgeo> The DRM scares me, but B&N is DRMed too
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03:00:44 <zzo38> I made up this equation (where f^ represents functional powers): $$f_x(y)=\left(f^{y!}_{x-1}(y!)\right)^x+y$$ How much does the number get larger more faster?
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03:23:08 <zzo38> I tried to calculate $f_2(2)$ but I am not sure if I got the correct answer, and I haven't tried $f_3(3)$, or, if $n=f_3(3)$ what is $f_n(n)$ = ?
03:42:04 <zzo38> How much tacks^Wtax do you put in your 6502 programs?
04:13:06 <Bike> i would guess it grows Pretty Fast.
04:14:02 <zzo38> It will be to the power of zero, so f_0 is just the successor function.
04:14:17 <zzo38> A special case is not needed.
04:14:52 <Bike> But what if the inner term turned out to be zero so you got 0^0
04:15:02 <zzo38> Anything to power of zero is one.
04:15:51 <zzo38> Even LJHG(Y#)R(N#%()YNM!_N%C|~(@|%<C(<!&%()LX<UATVUE<TCOPY<WOT<YXOEUWQ<TXOUE>TXOUEQ>TXOUIWEQTTEEPTJPIT{UET...NO CARRIER to the power of zero still should be just one, isn't it?
04:21:28 <Bike> f_2(2) = f^{2!}_1(2!)^2+2 = f^2_1(2)^2+2 = f_1(f_1(2))^2+2. f_1 = \y -> f^{y!}_0(y!)^1 + y = \y -> y!*y!+y. so f_1(f_1(2))^2+2 = f_1(2!*2!+2)^2+2 = f_1(6)^2+2 = (6!*6!+6)^2+2 = (720*720+6)^2+2 = 518406^2+2 = 268744780838
04:22:51 <zzo38> I probably calculated it wrongly
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07:46:29 <zzo38> But it is large nevertheless, but still can be written easily enough, so it isn't really large.
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10:22:09 <ion> Oh look, an identical rhythm with one of my song ideas. In mine it alternates between that and having the high hat hit simultaneously with the first kick drum hit following the snare. http://youtu.be/oSYNhfkNGco?t=2m25s
10:27:09 <fizzie> Heh, accidentally ran fdisk on a partition (sde1) instead of a disk (sde): http://sprunge.us/SKSW
10:27:15 <fizzie> "It sure doesn't, fdisk, it sure doesn't."
10:29:23 <ion> Try writing it back and see if anything breaks.
10:29:39 <Bike> that's quite a partition table
10:29:50 <Bike> wtf is opus? other than a comic
10:30:00 <ion> and an audio codec
10:32:11 <fizzie> An old microkernel OS, apparently.
10:32:33 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent
10:32:50 <fizzie> "Initially started as a project within Apple to provide a replacement for the Mac OS, it was later spun off into a joint venture with IBM, for the purpose of building a competing platform to Microsoft Cairo and NeXTSTEP, as part of the AIM alliance."
10:32:56 <fizzie> I think the technical term is a "dead end".
10:35:21 <fizzie> (Found a whopping 64 megabyte CF card, was checking what's on it.)
10:36:28 <ion> That could hold, like, a whopping five photos!
10:37:40 <fizzie> I think it used to hold, like, a hundred. I (most likely) used it in a jpeg-only 1600x1200 resolution camera.
10:43:15 <fizzie> http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/dcc/data/2001-2002/2002_ps-a200.html?lang=us&categ=srs&page=psa this one.
10:43:38 <fizzie> "The A200 also features an all-glass lens --" high-end!
10:45:12 <fizzie> Capable of a 9-seconds 320x240 (or a 26-second 160x120) movie and all.
10:46:57 <Bike> lens guaranteed at least 86% dolphin free
10:47:45 <fizzie> (Though there's at least one thing in the spec sheet -- can do USB control; there was even gphoto2 support -- where it beats the succeeding camera I had.)
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12:00:31 <b_jonas> oh no! yet another grammar nazi trying to force people to use stupid irregular plurals for no reason!
12:01:04 <Bike> wat r u takin but
12:07:29 <fizzie> I remember our (high school or the thing before that) math teacher writing 0⁰ on a blackboard, then asking "now, what's this?", then modifying it to ⁰0⁰ and going "it's Mickey Mouse".
12:08:13 <Bike> uh that's clearly tetration??
12:10:32 <fizzie> What's the precedence for tetration and exponentiation, anyway? Is ⁷8⁹ (⁷8)⁹ or ⁷(8⁹)?
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12:11:36 <Bike> i believe the precedence is "what the fuck are you doing"
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13:20:01 <nortti> is there a argeed-upon substitute for 'ø' in false, should the environment prevent use of that letter?
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13:24:24 <nortti> I mean if I'm implementing a False implementation but the environment lacks 'ø', which is False for pick
13:26:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, Any idea how to figure out the bit-rate of a mp4? I'm having issues playing a certain piece of media in anything except mplayer on my gaming PC, so I want to transcode it for lower bit-rate so I can play it on non-beast machines
13:27:04 <Vorpal> Even vlc on my gaming PC stutters
13:27:12 <Vorpal> Which is pretty insane
13:36:56 <Vorpal> VIDEO: [H264] 1280x720 24bpp 25.000 fps 2700.1 kbps (329.6 kbyte/s)
13:37:03 <Vorpal> mplayer was able to calculate that
13:37:12 <Vorpal> That is quite an insane bitrate I think?
13:41:29 <Vorpal> I don't get it then, why doesn't the video want to play on anything but my desktop, and only in mplayer
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13:59:30 <int-e> Vorpal: I don't know enough about H264, but from a purely abstract point of view, a lower bitrate does not necessarily mean that it's easier to decode.
14:01:57 <Vorpal> int-e, hm, what is the issue then?
14:12:50 <int-e> I don't know, but here is a bit of wild speculation: Allowing B-frames to use interpolation sounds like fun, for example. But it could also be that some filter is used that is very rare, and hence not implemented efficiently.
14:14:01 <int-e> The point is that it comes down to codec features used, and the bitrate does not contain any information about that.
14:16:28 <fizzie> I don't think the mplayer average-bitrate information is always terribly accurate, either. (VLC has Tools/Media Information/Statistics/Input bitrate view that can show an "instant" bitrate graph.)
14:18:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I'm trying to transcode it with somewhat random parameters, hoping that solves the issue. Since the input file is a couple of hours long though... Hm how do I tell ffmpeg to only encode the first x seconds?
14:20:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah according to vlc the bitrate is 3.0 to 5.0 mbit/s. Can't find the graph though, my vlc may be too old
14:20:21 <Vorpal> Since I'm on debian stable that is quite possible
14:21:48 <fizzie> There's a "-t X" flag, where X is a number in seconds or in hh:mm:ss.
14:21:58 <fizzie> (Restricts the output duration to that.)
14:23:00 <Vorpal> Useful, I'll run some tests on the first 30 seconds.
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14:31:36 <elliott> Vorpal: there's no way that video should be playing slowly on your gaming PC at all
14:31:45 <elliott> something sounds very broken
14:34:02 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, and if i transcode it to even higher bit-rate (yes I know this is stupid for obvious reasons) it plays well. I guess the input stream is just super-quirky in some way
14:34:39 <Vorpal> elliott, so I'll just transcode it to something half-reasonable to "fix" it.
14:36:03 <elliott> Vorpal: it might be a muxing problem
14:36:08 <elliott> try remuxing the file (don't need to reencode)
14:36:22 <elliott> ffmpeg -i file.mp4 -vcodec copy -acodec copy file.fixed.mp4
14:36:33 <Vorpal> elliott, tried that already. Didn't help.
14:37:29 <elliott> can you upload the mp4? I kinda wanna poke at it.
14:38:27 <Vorpal> elliott, Maybe I could do a copy of the first minute or so?
14:38:34 <Vorpal> That would be reasonable
14:38:52 <fizzie> I've got a couple of H.264 files that play very badly (colorful artefacts) with the VDPAU-accelerated ffh264vdpau decoder, but just fine with regular ffh264. I assume they've managed to hit some corner case too.
14:38:53 <elliott> Vorpal: if that produces the same problem, sure
14:39:56 <elliott> fizzie: probably a hardware bug, not an ffmpeg bug
14:40:35 <fizzie> Sure, but the VDPAU decoders play all other files just fine, so it's some quirk particular to these.
14:41:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I tried it on a nexus tablet (dice player), a windows PC (vlc and windows media player), a mac (vlc) and two linux PCs (vlc and mplayer on both). Only gaming PC (booted to linux, haven't tried windows on it) + mplayer worked.
14:41:26 <Vorpal> elliott, waiting for dropbox sync...
14:42:56 <Vorpal> elliott, also in case you wonder, it is BBC Last Night of Proms, downloaded from Swedish public service web TV. Legal private copy and so on. And the copy to you is for debugging obviously.
14:43:23 <Vorpal> elliott, see /msg for link
14:44:05 <Vorpal> elliott, interestingly it plays okay in the dropbox mp4 player
14:44:11 <Vorpal> wonder if they transcoded it?!
14:44:37 <Vorpal> elliott, here is the sha512sum so you can check it transferred properly 98ac3693b3597f3e34909d15a3eea0fe8264744b0aa29b2184cc5ad596aa1434409c416c59d24c57f5b27a6f5ce2652deb2cb833d679e227ec72a2c3cbb288e4
14:45:21 <elliott> file size in bytes would be simpler
14:45:42 <Vorpal> 21465184 bytes (21 MB)
14:47:50 <Vorpal> elliott, using the download link for me, worked perfectly, checked the sha512sum
14:49:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure the web-player on dropbox does some transcoding, the quality looks worse than what I get from mplayer to me
15:03:37 <fungot> fizzie: is it time to do it with
15:03:47 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, it is time.
15:03:48 <fungot> fizzie: my advisor is giving.)) be considered abusive?" " oh, my goodness you're talking about. oh, shriram's book has a ' v' like in c
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17:58:45 <Sgeo> The thing with B&N DRM and CC nums... is the CC num required in order to be able to crack the DRM, or required to attempt to unlock the book 'legitimately'?
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21:24:33 <shachaf> whoa, http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Y_combinator#Rust links to my website for some reason
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21:28:47 <kmc> somebody should fix it up for Rust 0.9
21:29:54 <shachaf> why did they rename Rec to Mu :'(
21:30:42 <shachaf> do people just call things Mu
21:32:07 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140201-esoteric-2013.ogg it's bleeps and bloops time again
21:32:35 <shachaf> whoa, i didn't know people used opera
21:33:21 <shachaf> maybe that type should be called Curry
21:33:31 <shachaf> except that would be confusing
21:36:10 <olsner> fizzie: what's the bleeping and blooping of?
21:45:30 <fizzie> olsner: One year of logs[*]. ([*] Boring details available by request.)
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22:13:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, details please?
22:17:48 <nortti> yeah, I'm interested too
22:22:03 <fizzie> It's taking top 64 nicks (counting messages in 2013, with slight canonicalization) sorted alphabetically, then making a 64x105120 matrix by counting number of messages in all 5-minute intervals in 2013; then some remapping (sigmoid function on the values, filtering across the time dimension with a 24-frame aka 2-hour Gaussian window), then inserting all those 64 "channels" as logarithmically ...
22:22:09 <fizzie> ... equally spaced lines from 200 Hz to 3 kHz in a magnitude spectrogram (with 32 ms frames and 75% overlap) and resynthesizing a time domain signal out of it.
22:22:54 <pikhq> Aaaaagh! Such pain.
22:23:04 <fizzie> You can sort-of hear the day cycle, which would be 86400/300 = 288 frames, and therefore 288 * 0.25 * 32 ms ~= 2.3 seconds.
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22:24:21 <fizzie> (Or at least fool yourself into thinking you hear it.)
22:31:16 <int-e> "The result was a short burst of the most hideous cacophony, and he stopped it. He ran the conversion program again, this time instructing it to force-map the pitch values into G minor. This was a utility he was determined in the end to get rid of because he regarded it as cheating. If there was any basis to his firmly held belief that the rhythms and harmonies of music which he found most satisfying could be found in, or...
22:31:22 <int-e> ...at least derived from, the rhythms and harmonies of naturally occurring phenomena, then satisfying forms of modality and intonation should emerge naturally as well, rather than being forced. For the moment, though, he forced it. The result was a short burst of the most hideous cacophony in G minor."
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22:47:38 <kmc> not really
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23:03:26 <shachaf> i should be more careful with urls
23:04:12 <shachaf> i'm told that cool uris don't change
23:04:35 <shachaf> but i just scatter them willy-nilly in the root of my website with random names
23:08:12 <kmc> winners don't do drugs
23:08:30 <atriq> druggers don't have wind
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23:11:29 <int-e> is there one that just switches the meanings of [], +-, <> and .,?
23:11:50 <oerjan> atriq: i think phantom_hoover should do a public caning, do you agree?
23:12:32 <quintopia> int-e: here's an idea. a bf-clone where all 8 commands all mean "choose a bf command uniformly at random and run it"
23:12:46 <kmc> cut-rate druggists
23:12:57 <FireFly> I foresee a lot of invalid programs in that language
23:13:20 <int-e> FireFly: I foresee none; it just comes down to running them often enough.
23:13:31 <int-e> quintopia: what does ] do in brainfuck?
23:13:40 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you like zest
23:14:22 <int-e> (though admittedly most bf interpreters that I've written will just terminate the program at the first ] without matching [)
23:14:27 <quintopia> int-e: in this implementation, it would search backward for a corresponding [ and halt if it reaches the beginning of the program. alternately, we could assume every program starts and ends with infinitely [ and ]
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23:16:49 <oerjan> quintopia: i assume that during the [] matching search it will determine randomly whether any given command is a [ or ]
23:17:37 <kmc> drunkard's walk as a control flow structure
23:18:56 <oerjan> http://sprunge.us/SKSW
23:19:17 <quintopia> oerjan: so if you're more than 8 characters into the program already, there's a good chance of succeeding in finding one
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00:24:54 <seba29> Hi, is there someone that helps me with a reading?
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02:00:05 <kmc> fungot: we should change the topic shouldn't we
02:00:05 <fungot> kmc: i'll just detour that... which would become fnord which would usually be otherwise impossible
02:18:13 <Sgeo> I own a Vorapede.
02:18:28 <Sgeo> Not worth very much despite being a mythic rare
02:18:45 <kmc> ...foot eater?
02:19:27 <Sgeo> Looks a bit big to be a foot eater
02:20:03 <Sgeo> Like it would rather eat a whole person than a foot
02:20:15 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262850
02:21:03 <Bike> maybe it eats with its feet
02:21:30 <Bike> basically looks like a giant snail right
02:22:12 <Sgeo> So yeah, considering playing Draft at FNMs
02:23:05 <shachaf> Sgeo: 5 for a 5/4 vigilance trample that becomes a 6/5 vigilance trample is not that bad, is it?
02:23:30 <Sgeo> shachaf: no, but according to comments in Gatherer, there are other cards that outshine it
02:24:43 <Sgeo> Apparently all Planeswalkers are mythic rares, which makes me sad
02:26:39 <shachaf> Sgeo: whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. those other cards are too good
02:28:09 <shachaf> (Kalonian Hydra is also too good)
02:32:17 <Sgeo> That's blatantly too good... 3.5 stars why?
02:44:43 <Sgeo> I understand that basic lands are colorless, but... is there any good flavor reason for that?
02:49:27 <kmc> i want a card whose effect is "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"
02:49:36 <Bike> you've seen Drive, as i remember/away
02:50:15 <shachaf> is that Bike pressing ↑ before typing /away
02:51:00 <Bike> i don't know what that was
02:52:30 <shachaf> Sgeo: your job is to find a card that provides some sort of negative effect to your opponent for putting jams on their creatres
02:52:46 <Bike> well, i mean, i was recommending movies, but not here
02:52:54 <Bike> though Drive is a good movie. just, public announcement
02:54:02 <shachaf> maybe i should use Drive. i have all this storage space now
02:54:28 <shachaf> Bike: is Anastasia (1956 film) a good movie
02:54:50 <Bike> haven't seen it, don't know
03:11:47 <Sgeo> The only thing I think people dislike Kindle for over Nooks etc. is the DRM policies
03:12:55 <Sgeo> "However if you use the Send to Kindle function to put your mobi books in the Amazon Cloud then DL to the iPad from the Cloud they will easily sync highlights, bookmarks, notes, etc. with the same mobi book on other Kindles and Kindle apps. "
03:18:35 <Sgeo> I already bought it
03:19:39 <Sgeo> Send to Kindle sounds really fun, and I remember regretting that the Nook didn't have it when I got the Nook
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04:02:24 <Sgeo> The Nook is worse DRMed in a way that's more important to me: Apparently it's tricky to retrieve notes and hilights
04:02:37 <Sgeo> Not impossible (hopefully)
04:12:36 <kmc> here's an exploit for that Linux x32 bug we were discussing:
04:12:37 <kmc> http://pastebin.com/DH3Lbg54
04:14:30 <Bike> "read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features and smirk a few times" -_-
04:14:36 <Bike> man i miss my international keyboard
04:15:26 <Bike> id instead of whoami, huh. is that the usual nowadays
04:16:05 <kmc> Ubuntu deserves a lot of credit for some of the security stuff they've done
04:16:34 <Bike> yeah it's just kind of bullyingly mean, which th ere is a better adjective for i'm sure but i can't think of it
04:26:08 <kmc> fungot: u hax?
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04:52:33 <zzo38> How common is it to checkmate with a castling move?
04:58:38 <zzo38> Yes, I don't expect it to be common, but how common is it anyways? And how common just to give check with a castling move even if it isn't checkmate?
04:59:01 <zzo38> And how common is it for the other player to resign immediately after one player castles?
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05:25:37 <zzo38> Wizards of the Coast didn't like the Elo system and replaced it with the "Planeswalker Points" system, which is a terrible system.
05:27:19 <shachaf> zzo38: why all the castling questions
05:27:36 <Bike> darn i thought you were being objective.
05:28:46 <shachaf> Chester came to school and said, / "Durn, I growed another head." / Teacher said, "It's time you knowed / The word is 'grew' instead of 'growed'"
05:29:30 <zzo38> shachaf: I once read about castling to put opponent in check, and even once did so myself, but haven't seen a castling move where it makes opponent checkmated, but am curious to know how common such things are. I did see once a game involving misinterpretations of older rules where castling with a promoted pawn is a checkmating move.
05:31:36 <Bike> promoting a pawn to rook and then castling with it?
05:33:56 * ion bew to shachaf
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05:37:19 <Bike> i thought you could only castle if the rook and king had never moved before?
05:39:51 <zzo38> Bike: That is correct.
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05:47:09 <Bike> so how could you do it with a promoted pawn
05:48:07 <kmc> "An exception is seen in the British Museum's collection of the medieval Lewis chess pieces in which the rooks appear as stern warders or wild-eyed Berzerker warriors."
05:48:33 <zzo38> It isn't actually allowed, but due to older rules some people thought it would be allowed; king goes to King's 3 and rook goes to King's 2, and notation O-O-O-O-O-O.
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06:07:44 <kmc> it's weird that the maglev speed record is only 6.2 km/hr more than the conventional rail speed record
06:08:44 <kmc> zzo38: ꙮ-ꙮ-ꙮ-ꙮ-ꙮ-ꙮ-ꙮ
06:09:41 <quintopia> there haven't been many maglev trains
06:09:56 <Sgeo> shachaf: what if I want to castle as an interrupt?
06:10:04 <kmc> quintopia: indeed
06:10:27 <Sgeo> I think interrupts are more flavorful... I mean, how odd is it that if I cast A, and opponent casts B in response, B takes less time than A?
06:12:50 <kmc> and conventional rail technology has more than 200 years of refinement and mass worldwide deployment
06:15:36 <zzo38> I like it without the interrupts though
06:15:58 <zzo38> I don't care so much about "flavorful"
06:16:36 <kmc> Sgeo: a wizard did it
06:18:10 <Sgeo> (In a single player campaign) now have a 9/8 with trample
06:18:16 <Sgeo> Is green generally this ridiculous?
06:30:30 <ion> 9/8 is a nice time signature.
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07:16:00 <Sgeo> "From now on I call From the Vault: 20 FtV: Jace. That's the reason most people are buying it. Its a foil Jace that comes with an extra 19 cards. :)"
07:20:25 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, green lurves crazy-big creatures like that.
07:20:34 <pikhq> That's expecially doable in a more casual game.
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09:33:17 <Sgeo> "(Yes, eval() is used here, leaving you at mortal risk of XSS-attacking yourself.)"
09:34:49 <b_jonas> Sgeo: the disappointing part of From the Vault: 20 is how it has 5 cards that generate mana. why couldn't they put more diversity in?
09:43:10 <Sgeo> "Who even rates this higher than 0.5? This card makes Rod of Ruin look good."
09:43:17 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=198395
09:47:51 <myname> so, you have to spend 3 mana to make 1 dammage?
09:52:07 <Sgeo> myname: worse... 2 equip
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09:52:21 <Sgeo> So 5 total, although possibly spread over two turns
09:52:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo, magic the gathering?
09:53:33 <myname> there are really strange cards
09:54:10 <myname> i remember one that gives you an advantage as long as you do not speak with your normal voice
10:15:10 <Sgeo> Presumably Unglued or Unhinged
10:15:29 <Sgeo> Unglued+Unhinged are not tournament legal, they're not considered real cards
10:24:29 <Slereah__> You know, I always wondered what would happen if I changed the VGA buffer without first switching to graphic mode
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10:27:51 <fizzie> I would have bet (some, but not very much) money on nothing interesting in particular happening, for writing to 0xa0000..affff while in a text mode. (Or was this in DOSBox or something?)
10:28:51 <fizzie> If you can be bothered, you could try it out in qemu or bochs or something real.
10:29:38 <fizzie> Aw. Well, I wouldn't take it as conclusive proof as to what would happen on a real computer. You know, in case your life depended on it or anything.
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10:32:00 <Slereah__> I don't think the case will ever pop up
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10:43:32 <fizzie> http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/program-status/delegated-strings so many TLDs
10:44:06 <Bike> too distracted by "Valuetainment" to read the rest
10:44:36 <fizzie> I wonder if .cheap addresses are cheap.
10:45:02 <Bike> .monash? why did a university buy a gtld
10:46:11 <fizzie> I guess for BRAND PURPOSES.
10:46:57 <fizzie> Also you have to use all those tuition fees for something.
10:47:12 <Bike> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.econ/IIjUodGrHXw/uWHIxu2-LqMJ
10:47:15 <fizzie> And if you pay employees too well, they'll get all uppity.
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10:47:58 <Bike> i think we should start the #esoteric foundation llc just to get .jam made
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10:49:51 <Sgeo> <= Netsplit between *.net and *.split. Users quit: nisstyre, Frooxius, realzies
10:50:40 <FreeFull> fizzie: The text on screen gets stored in memory too
10:50:48 <FreeFull> So if you hit the right addresses, you will override that
10:51:10 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes, but it's not in a0000..affff.
10:51:16 <fizzie> FreeFull: It's in b8000..bffff.
10:51:30 <fizzie> (And b0000..b7fff is the monochrome video buffer place.)
10:52:02 <FreeFull> I'm not sure if it's always in b8k or if it depends on which textmode you're in
10:52:26 <fizzie> Bike: For the record, Bond University has applied for .bond and La Trobe University has applied for .latrobe, in addition to .monash. Must be some kind of an Australian thing.
10:52:39 <Bike> sunstroke, i bet
11:00:47 <Slereah__> The nice thing about the graphic mode is that no matter if you fuck up
11:01:24 <FreeFull> I don't think that's how it works
11:01:32 <Slereah__> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/DOS.png
11:01:56 <Slereah__> Just looking at it I am filled with wonderment
11:07:05 <Slereah__> I'm pretty sure some little atari dude could have an epic adventure in there!
11:07:18 <Slereah__> He's gonna find an amazing treasure that looks like a square
11:07:25 <Slereah__> And battle enemies that also look like squares
11:17:59 <Slereah__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaSd2d5rwPE
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11:53:23 <oerjan> > let ꙮ="multiocular! " in cycle ꙮ
11:53:24 <lambdabot> "multiocular! multiocular! multiocular! multiocular! multiocular! multiocula...
11:54:52 <int-e> (they're watching you)
11:55:06 <Slereah__> That character does not actually display
11:55:15 <oerjan> not in my putty either
11:55:28 <oerjan> i copied it from the logs
11:55:32 <int-e> but I can cut&paste it to firefox, for example.
11:56:18 <int-e> and even if you can't see it, you *know* that THEY are watching.
11:56:43 <Slereah__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
11:57:28 <int-e> wait a second, are there supposed to be 13 or 16 eyes?
12:00:45 <olsner> it's lots of eyes, not sure if the exact number of eyes is significant
12:01:39 * oerjan learns that there are also binocular o, double monocular o, and monocular o
12:03:24 <oerjan> i recall from previous discussion that the unicode sample has a different number of eyes from the original manuscript ones.
12:04:37 <int-e> the manuscript linked from wikipedia uses 16, but 13 is scary enough to me :)
12:04:45 <oerjan> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/a66e/index.htm has 7 while wikipedia has 10
12:05:14 <myname> i have 10 at wikipedia and 7 at fileformat
12:05:33 <myname> must be no fun writing
12:06:11 <oerjan> myname: pretty sure wikipedia's is a picture.
12:06:38 <FireFly> I think the important thing is that it's more than two
12:06:40 <int-e> 2*6+1 ... yeah, that was embarassingly foolish.
12:06:40 <oerjan> well although it contains a character too.
12:07:51 <FireFly> I wonder if Unicode specifies what a codepoint should render as
12:12:09 <FireFly> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/UA640.pdf has 7 too
12:13:10 <FreeFull> But font size also depends on DPI
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12:15:35 <FreeFull> Slereah__: http://i.imgur.com/Nlj97.png Do this, in x86 16-bit ASM
12:16:02 <int-e> FireFly: I guess not, based on the proposal for adding those characters: https://web.archive.org/web/20131224125913/http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3194.pdf
12:17:19 <Slereah__> Although I have a friend who's an assembly expert
12:17:22 <int-e> (their font uses 7; the manuscript scan uses 10, it's the same that wikipedia links to)
12:18:01 <FreeFull> Slereah__: See if your friend can do it :D
12:18:05 <Slereah__> https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=3397 < this site has some great examples, by the way
12:18:25 <Slereah__> But he did a port of Bubble Bobble for the Amstrad CPC
12:19:41 <FireFly> I like how the -ocular o's are essentially pictographic
12:20:14 <FireFly> "replace 'o' with this character if the word is derived from the stem meaning 'eye'"
12:22:07 <int-e> hmm. can I set dosbox options on the command line without writing a .conf file ...
12:28:43 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qs62r/i_just_got_banned_from_my_favorite_restaurant_for/ meanwhile in /r/bitcoin
12:32:39 <fizzie> "submitted 2 months ago" "meanwhile" (great story, anyhow)
12:34:01 <int-e> FreeFull: it's something different, but give http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/magnet.tgz a try :)
12:41:54 <int-e> Oh. It's a bit more than 10 years old. I really should've dated those things.
12:47:17 <int-e> And I see that I've commented the fpu code. (The comments show the contents of the FPU stack. Tracking that can be quite confusing.)
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13:21:50 <fizzie> I've got to stop using the IRC input line for short-term notes.
13:29:01 <ais523> fizzie: I tend to just send them to the channel
13:29:09 <ais523> that way if I need them in the future, I can find them in the log
13:31:07 <fizzie> Ah, but I won't need that one after 15:41 EET, so it's reasonably likely to still be in the input backscroll.
13:32:31 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> 15:21 .. 15:41 <fizzie> I've got to stop using the IRC input line for short-term notes. <ais523> fizzie: I tend to just send them to the channel <ais523> that way if I need them in the future, I can find them in the log
13:32:33 <HackEgo> 1165) <fizzie> 15:21 .. 15:41 <fizzie> I've got to stop using the IRC input line for short-term notes. <ais523> fizzie: I tend to just send them to the channel <ais523> that way if I need them in the future, I can find them in the log
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13:59:02 <int-e> Aha! `addquote must be for long term notes.
14:05:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoe: not found
14:05:12 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
14:10:35 <HackEgo> 42) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
14:16:07 <HackEgo> 628) <oklopol> the point of a university is research and training new researchers. the point of the world is to enable this.
14:27:48 <HackEgo> 456) <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
14:29:37 <Slereah_> i made a clear screen function and now some shapes are disappearing!
14:30:28 * oerjan spots FreeFull making an account at the Complexity Zoo
14:31:14 <oerjan> someone asked wtf was up if you tried to click random page in that
14:31:32 <oerjan> answer: that's what a wiki turns out like if no one bothers to delete spam _ever_.
14:32:30 <oerjan> except on the publically facing pages, presumably.
14:33:01 <oerjan> behold https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=1000.000000Ree_Online_Facebook_Of_Sex_In_Australia_New_Zealand&to=Events_In_Cape_Town_Reviews_Tips
14:34:23 <FreeFull> oerjan: I made an account because I wanted to get rid of the spam, but I'm not sure hwo
14:34:37 <FreeFull> You can just press the "random article" button and get spam
14:35:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: well given they're all spam-titled articles, you really need admin powers to delete properly.
14:35:36 <oerjan> you could blank them, but that doesn't really help with random article
14:36:44 <oerjan> and all the spam is too old to show up in recent changes.
14:37:21 <int-e> chessbase makes me so angry sometimes. http://en.chessbase.com/post/a-new-challenging-chess-variant - who is this guy and why does chessbase give him a platform for his so-called "research"?
14:37:22 <oerjan> in fact the reason i noticed you was because you're one of the few things happening in the last month.
14:40:45 <oerjan> FreeFull: given the way the wiki is structured, a script to delete all orphan pages might work...
14:43:14 <oerjan> callforjudgement: oh i hit an actual non-spam page on that wiki. i think i may have invented a variant of your brainfuck derivative/self-made game
14:43:44 <callforjudgement> can you get admin rights and just delete the spam pages as you hit them?
14:43:46 <int-e> what are you doing? visiting "random pages"?
14:44:08 <callforjudgement> on Esolang, you hit random page, score 1 negative point for each BF derivative, stop when you reach a language you made yourself
14:44:09 <oerjan> callforjudgement: i'm not even registered there, so i doubt they'd trust me.
14:44:22 <int-e> (I've found that the wiki works fine if you use the dedicated index pages)
14:44:44 <int-e> (the complexity zoo one)
14:45:07 <oerjan> it's a very low-volume wiki otherwise, so presumably there's no admin with actual time for spam maintenance.
14:45:10 <int-e> callforjudgement: how close do I have to get to -\infty before I'm allowed to stop?
14:45:34 <callforjudgement> int-e: if you have trouble stopping, you go create some more non-BF-deriv esolangs
14:46:54 <oerjan> oh wait deleting orphans won't work, the real page i hit was one.
14:47:09 <oerjan> https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/STCON
14:49:00 <oerjan> btw the fact STCON is in LOGSPACE is the essence of a famous complexity theorem.
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14:50:58 <oerjan> it seems most of the spam was added last spring
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14:55:19 <FireFly> Couldn't one remove the spam pages based on some heuristic? Most of them (from a small random sample, anyway) seem to contain several long paragraphs and no wiki markup
15:01:35 <int-e> ... https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Strategies_To_Use_SEO ...
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15:32:33 <b_jonas> hehe, "score 1 negative point for each BF derivative, stop when you reach a language you made yourself"
15:32:43 <b_jonas> do you get positive score for anything?
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15:52:01 <FireFly> I've landed on an equal amount of brainfuck derivatives and brainfuck implementations thus far
15:56:17 <Taneb> Does brainfuck count as a brainfuck derivative for the purposes of this game
15:57:49 <myname> Taneb: what if you made a bf derivate? do you stop? do you score -1? both?
15:58:18 <myname> wouldn't it be best to make the whole wiki full of bf derivates to get better scores?
15:59:24 <myname> you are more likely to stop while others are more likely to get -1
16:02:19 <FireFly> pretty sure being a BF derivative should have precedence
16:03:22 <Taneb> My score: -7 or -8 depending on whether brainfuck counts
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16:09:14 <FireFly> ...the wiki has some pretty weird 'languages'
16:09:26 <FireFly> Such as http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yo
16:15:02 <myname> i do find German (esolang) pretty stupid
16:51:40 <quintopia> Taneb: brainfuck does not count. it has seniority.
16:52:39 <quintopia> i think the game should be "-1 for every language that has not a single creative idea in it" just to be sure
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16:53:11 <quintopia> because some brinfuck "derivatives" are awesome, while some non-bf-derivs are the worst
16:59:34 <quintopia> machine code derivative? yeah that's pretty low
17:00:03 <myname> and bier is spelled wrong
17:02:27 <int-e> I see. 'cat' is a compiler for the 'Cat' language, in the spirit of 'German'.
17:05:37 <int-e> some ninja twins levels are annoying ... too many hidden items
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19:35:03 <Taneb> How does the HackEgo BFJoust hill score?
19:37:55 <quintopia> Taneb: it's explained on gregor's bfjoust hill page
19:38:32 <quintopia> the short answer is "it's kind of stupid"
19:38:54 <quintopia> the long answer is "i implemented a better scoring system, and Gregor never incorporated it"
19:39:08 <Taneb> How does yours work?
19:41:18 <Bike> just before i got up i imagined that "coop" was "copoop"
19:42:46 <ion> copooperation
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19:50:18 <Bike> http://www.coingen.io/ finally
19:51:42 <shachaf> can i invest in Bikeoin yet
19:51:56 <Bike> you could create bikeoin
19:52:55 <kmc> http://coingen.io/status.html
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19:53:41 <kmc> should i invest in fraudcoin? or maybe hackernewscoin?
19:53:51 <shachaf> i think i'll invest in _this_site_is_a_scam_dont_send_your_bitcoins_to_coingen_
19:54:11 <Bike> i'm betting on unusablecoin
19:55:08 <Bike> probably a misspelling of "tulip"?
19:55:12 <Bike> referring to tulip mania
19:55:24 <copumpkin> still seems silly to typo your coin name!
19:55:37 <kmc> or i could branch out to "fourchan" or "adolfhitler"
19:56:33 <shachaf> i think i have too much hair
19:57:13 <shachaf> last time i removed my hair i got a sunburn
20:02:43 <ion> You should remove your hair and move to Finland.
20:03:30 <ion> There’s no sun here.
20:03:44 <shachaf> p. sure it was sunny last time i was there
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20:39:48 <fizzie> I can attest to there being no sun visible in the sky here at this moment.
20:40:22 <Taneb> shachaf, there won't be any sun here from 7:30 PM on the 20th of February!
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21:19:41 <oerjan> tromp posted about his cuckoo project http://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/1wtn6d/cuckoo_cycle_a_memoryhard_proofofwork_system/
21:26:11 <oerjan> gah i hate that pdfs on github won't open in the browser
21:26:24 <tromp> you must pick the raw version
21:26:32 <oerjan> i _did_ pick the raw version.
21:26:35 <tromp> or i must figure out how to publish them on github pages
21:27:02 <oerjan> it insists on opening it outside, which means the awful metro interface.
21:27:06 <tromp> oh, i never unsdersood why some pdfs are downloaded and other are shown in browser
21:27:29 <tromp> btw, i'm rewriting the paper as we speak
21:27:42 <tromp> expect a new version in 5 mins
21:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <tromp> oh, i never unsdersood why some pdfs are downloaded and other are shown in browser
21:30:39 <FireFly> I'm guessing the 'raw' feature sends the file as application/octet-stream
21:31:36 <oerjan> FireFly: that would do it i guess :(
21:33:11 <kmc> there is also Content-disposition: attachment
21:33:52 <Taneb> Help I've written a function that computes the fibonacci sequence using only identifiers defined in the lens library
21:33:57 <tromp> ok, oerjan, new version pushed
21:34:07 <oerjan> Taneb: including operators?
21:34:20 <Taneb> view curried (view simple) (sumOf ignored (&)) (productOf ignored (&)) ^.. over mapped (iterated ((over mapped (view flipped (mapped %~) (sumOf both ^. curried)) (over mapped (mapped %~) (view simple ^. curried))) ^. flipped & over mapped (perform (acts&mapped%~acts)) & review curried)) _1
21:34:32 <Taneb> oerjan, including operators
21:36:15 <Taneb> Getting rid of (.) was easy. Getting rid of (,) was less so
21:40:44 <oerjan> > view curried (view simple) (sumOf ignored (&)) (productOf ignored
21:40:44 <oerjan> (&)) ^.. over mapped (iterated ((over mapped (view flipped
21:40:44 <oerjan> (mapped %~) (sumOf both ^. curried)) (over mapped (mapped %~)
21:40:44 <oerjan> (view simple ^. curried))) ^. flipped & over mapped (perform
21:40:44 <oerjan> (acts&mapped%~acts)) & review curried)) _1
21:40:45 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
21:41:48 <oerjan> > view curried (view simple) (sumOf ignored (&)) (productOf ignored (&)) ^.. over mapped (iterated ((over mapped (view flipped (mapped %~) (sumOf both ^. curried)) (over mapped (mapped %~) (view simple ^. curried))) ^. flipped & over mapped (perform (acts&mapped%~acts)) & review curried)) _1
21:41:49 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
21:46:40 * oerjan increase paste_detect_time to 10msecs
21:52:30 <zzo38> What does paste_detect_time mean?
21:53:00 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: You can cause it to display the text by adding "view-source:" at the beginning of the URL.
21:53:36 <Taneb> It's actually pretty simple
21:53:54 <oerjan> zzo38: how long irssi waits after a line before deciding it's not part of a larger paste
21:54:07 <Taneb> Essentially "iterate (\(a,b) -> (b, a+b)) (0,1)"
21:55:24 <FireFly> If only terminal emulators and shell applications would support bracketed-paste...
21:57:14 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Profunctor p1, Swapped p) => p1 (p b a) (f (p d c)) -> p1 (p a b) (f (p c d))
21:57:18 <FireFly> Oh hey, weechat supports bracketed-paste if one enables an option
21:57:46 <Taneb> Oh man, I forgot about swapped
21:58:01 <oerjan> i thought it sounded like something you might have used
21:58:35 <zzo38> oerjan: What does it do with such a decision?
21:58:57 <zzo38> FireFly: What does bracketed-paste mean?
21:59:18 <FireFly> It's a terminal mode where pastes are prefixed and suffixed by escape sequences
21:59:59 <FireFly> Which would be useful if it was actually a thing, since it'd mean IRC clients and text editors wouldn't have to guess based on timing and heuristics if something was pasted or typed
22:00:24 <oerjan> zzo38: if it detects it's a paste, it will (1) warn you if it's many lines. (2) join wrapping lines if it looks like it has been copied from the irssi window.
22:00:46 <FireFly> http://www.xfree86.org/current/ctlseqs.html#Bracketed%20Paste%20Mode
22:00:55 <zzo38> What escape sequences? Is it the START OF TEXT and END OF TEXT control characters?
22:00:58 <oerjan> in particular, (2) failed for me above because it didn't detect it as a paste, which is why i increased it.
22:01:08 <FireFly> No, it's CSI-prefixed sequences
22:01:36 <FireFly> i.e. either ESC [ 200 ~ or \x9B 200 ~ depending on whether 7-bit or 8-bit CSI is set
22:02:26 <Slereah_> If I try to declare some variable in x86
22:02:28 <Slereah_> square2 dw 0x0064, 0x0064, 0x0016
22:04:36 <zzo38> Slereah_: What assembler and what program?
22:05:52 <zzo38> I do not know how to program in FASM.
22:06:19 <Slereah_> As soon as I put that declaration, bam
22:06:26 <Slereah_> It assembles fine, but it does not work
22:06:48 <zzo38> Are you crossing a segment boundary?
22:07:12 <Slereah_> It works without the declaration, and does not with it
22:07:26 <Slereah_> I don't think the assembler would put it in another segment
22:07:49 <zzo38> Move it to the end of the program.
22:08:14 <zzo38> Otherwise it try to execute them as instructions
22:09:05 <zzo38> The program has to start at 0x0100 which is also beginning of the file, and the part before that is a PSP (at least, in DOS this is how it works).
22:09:33 <Slereah_> Man I don't want a playstation in my program
22:10:12 <kmc> FireFly: does anybody use 8-bit CSI?
22:10:54 <FireFly> I think several terminal emulators support it
22:10:59 <zzo38> kmc: I think Linux accepts it?
22:11:13 <kmc> yeah but do any common programs send such sequences, I mean
22:11:20 <zzo38> I don't know of any.
22:11:31 <fizzie> Wouldn't that just depend on your terminfo entry?
22:11:36 <fizzie> (For many programs, anyway.)
22:12:07 <kmc> and in a UTF-8 terminal do you actually send \xC2 \x9B ?
22:12:48 <zzo38> That I don't know; I don't use the UTF-8 terminal mode.
22:12:56 <FireFly> I think a shell application has to send an escape sequence to tell the terminal to change to 8-bit CSI, or something
22:13:14 <FireFly> One benefit of using the 8-bit CSI would be to disambiguate it from <Esc>
22:13:29 <kmc> I think ECMA-48 codes are defined in terms of codepoints and not bytes for a Unicode terminal
22:13:31 <zzo38> I think the terminal emulator built-in to Linux automatically allows 8-bit CSI though
22:15:18 <kmc> Slereah_: you may have assembler directives like .text and .data that let you switch between code and data sections, and the assembler/linker will arrange for each of code and data to be contiguous in memory
22:15:34 <kmc> so that way you can declare your variables near where they will be used, rather than at the end of the file
22:16:44 <FireFly> Ah, http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/S8C1T was the escape sequence I meant
22:16:57 <kmc> also important because memory for storing code isn't writeable on some platforms (like microcontrollers, or any OS enforcing that as a security measure)
22:18:18 <fizzie> FireFly: That's for terminal-to-host talk, though. I don't think you need to do that if it's the host sending 8-bit C1 control characters.
22:18:32 <fizzie> FireFly: (Just if you want the terminal to use them too.)
22:19:44 <FireFly> Yeah, that's probably true
22:20:03 <FireFly> the bracketed-paste case mentioned earlier would be terminal-to-host though
22:20:36 <fizzie> Right. (I wasn't reading at that point.)
22:21:08 <zzo38> How are interest rates calculated in case of leap years?
22:21:10 <fizzie> There was a thing that was using the 8-bit CSI that I came across the other year, but I've entirely forgotten what it was about.
22:33:02 <oerjan> zzo38: i very vaguely thought all months are treated as 30 days for the purpose
22:33:24 <fizzie> I believe there's a large number of different, incompatible conventions.
22:33:32 <fizzie> At least I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.
22:34:01 <fizzie> The 30/360 thing certainly is a thing that happens in some financial contexts, though.
22:34:13 <nortti> https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t31/1655773_636614729738716_1020538943_o.jpg
22:34:34 <zzo38> I think the way it should be done is using a tropical year rather than a calendar year, and using signs instead of months. You would then adjust these results into actual business days based on the timezone.
22:34:55 <Bike> astrological signs?
22:35:10 <zzo38> (Such a thing is still out if 30/360 but not based on the calendar)
22:35:18 <zzo38> Bike: Yes. One sign = 30 degrees
22:35:28 <oerjan> nortti: very secure password
22:35:54 <fizzie> oerjan: It has lowercase letters, uppercase letters, digits AND a special character.
22:36:05 <fizzie> You couldn't ask for more.
22:41:06 <Slereah_> My worst enemy in assembly is bits of code I left around
22:42:37 <kmc> ghost code
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22:57:07 <zzo38> Are there some programs to trace the program to figure out which codes won't ever be used?
23:00:43 <Bike> won't ever? isn't that a statically determinable property
23:01:10 <zzo38> Depending on the programming language it might be, I think.
23:01:20 <zzo38> (And depending on the program; sometimes it might not be)
23:02:10 <oerjan> Bike: like most things, it sometimes requires solving the halting problem.
23:02:26 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I meant, for the second thing.
23:02:57 <fizzie> Compilers certainly do dead code elimination; I'm sure there are some standalone analysis tools too. Though the "bits of code left around" problem probably involves code that actually does get executed, just shouldn't.
23:03:39 <zzo38> Also, if the program is already compiled, it is different, anyways.
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23:17:27 <zzo38> Do you like orthogonal instruction sets?
23:25:54 <zzo38> I would think it is good idea to have instead of an immediate addressing mode, to use PC post-increment; and instead of a jump instruction just have a move to PC instruction.
23:27:03 <zzo38> Does any CPU instruction set actually have PHI instructions, or is that only used in compilers?
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23:40:36 <zzo38> I do have an idea about how to implement a hardware PHI instruction: Make branch instructions to write the address of what would be next instruction as if it didn't branch to one register, and the actual next instruction address (regardless if it branch or not) to another register, and then the PHI instruction is a conditional move where the condition is both of these two mentioned registers have the same value.
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00:17:19 <shachaf> this .gif makes a good point http://www.mu6.com/Pascal_Triangle/Extended_Pascal_400.gif
00:19:10 <zzo38> What kind of good point?
00:21:40 <zzo38> Also, I notice it says "Rights under GNU" (I can't actually read it, but it looks like that) at the bottom. What exactly does that mean?
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01:12:47 <zzo38> Hello, is this working now?
01:15:44 <oerjan> are they dos'ing freenode again
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01:53:19 <zzo38> I am working on rewriting a QBASIC program in 6502 assembly language
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02:34:42 <zzo38> Is there something wrong with this Freenode?
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03:23:56 <quintopia> zzo38: yes. lots of failures. cloaks are offline.
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03:45:11 <kmc> > chat.freenode.net has address 127.0.0.1
03:45:42 * kmc got here by connecting directly to wolfe.freenode.net
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03:46:45 <copumpkin> yeah, apparently part of their anti-DDOS measures
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04:08:30 <zzo38> So is it working a bit better now, it is possible to read each other's message by now OK?
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04:26:27 <myname> zzo38: you are SO zzoic
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10:58:27 <itsy> Apparently I can't leave the house because there's an armed siege :-(
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11:38:34 <itsy> b_jonas: also, I think it might rain...
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11:40:52 <itsy> I don't really know the details. It's probably just a guy who won't answer the door to the police, so they send in the armed police to intimidate him.
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13:34:36 <boily> good February morning!
13:35:25 <fizzie> Good Febreze afternoon.
13:36:07 <metasepia> ENVA 031320Z VRB04KT CAVOK 08/M03 Q1010 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 21014KT
13:36:09 <boily> were there any wisdom-additions during the weekend?
13:36:12 <metasepia> CYUL 031300Z 02006KT 15SM OVC240 M12/M16 A3029 RMK CI8 SLP261
13:36:39 <fizzie> It's a warm again here.
13:38:29 <oerjan> boily: if we're to believe the repository, there were no changes for 6 days, until just a few hours ago (not wisdom related).
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13:39:00 <oerjan> however the browser was broken, so whether it's actually up-to-date i dunno...
13:39:16 <oerjan> i _distinctly_ recall addquoting.
13:39:30 <fizzie> I think I broke metasepia and boily. :/
13:39:50 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -1
13:40:04 <fizzie> (There's also no HackEgo.)
13:40:42 <fizzie> And fungot's not here, either. (!)
13:40:51 <fizzie> It's a bad day for bots.
13:40:54 <oerjan> EgoBot: WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE
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13:43:44 <boily> finally connected.
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13:44:06 <boily> apparently freenode has SSL troubles this morning.
13:44:44 <fizzie> It has all kinds of troubles.
13:44:58 <metasepia> EFHK 031320Z 19007KT 0800 R04R/P1500N R15/1300N R22L/P1500N R04L/P1500D FZFG VV002 M00/M01 Q1021 NOSIG
13:45:13 <fizzie> Though it looks different that what it usually does.
13:46:00 <boily> oh, the Mythic Negative Cow Club!
13:46:07 <oerjan> boily: i think Gregor`'s moving of hackego is not going well, and the repository browser is missing at least one quote i _know_ i added yesterday.
13:46:36 <oerjan> also hackego is not present.
13:47:12 <oerjan> boily: does temperature have the buddha nature?
13:47:22 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RYHN they must've changed something.
13:48:08 <fizzie> Added them runways, at least.
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13:48:38 <boily> I noticed his screaming absence from the channel.
13:49:21 <oerjan> i have no mü but i must scream
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13:58:24 <callforjudgement> boily: -mist- [As Globa As I Can Notice] Sorry folk! We're currently having the DDOS. I guess it will stop at some point. We do not have any information for you about it at this time. Have a cup of tea, or watch TV for a while until it blows over.
13:59:10 <oerjan> what if it NEVER STOPS
14:01:29 <boily> the Mandarin versions are either “wú” or “mó”, Cantonese “mou4” and Japanese “mu”. I felt the #Esöteric version would have none other than a nice diæ̈resis.
14:03:54 <oerjan> you are technically correct, the best kind of correct
14:04:43 <boily> callforjudgement: t. tdh.
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14:13:21 * boily test, test, test, test, retest, test again...
14:13:22 <boily> hm. I have serious multi-minute lag. let's reconnect...
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14:14:09 <itsy> What's up with freenode today?
14:14:55 <b_jonas> itsy: freenode is feeling ill
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14:15:45 <int-e> I heard on #haskell that there was/is? a DDOS attack on Freenode.
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14:18:56 <boily> stupid idea: if freenode has DoS problems, can it deploy its own botnet to DDoS the DoSsers?
14:19:20 <b_jonas> boily: how would that help?
14:19:34 <int-e> The whole point of DDoS is that there are many attackers and few targets.
14:20:03 * boily maplerases the stupid idea.
14:20:50 <FireFly> Earlier today chat.freenode.net completely refused my connection attempts
14:20:57 <FireFly> So yeah, feeling quite ill I bleieve
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14:21:18 <FireFly> Pretend I know how to sple
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14:22:00 <FireFly> fungot: any comment on the bot uprising that we have witnessed today?
14:22:01 <fungot> FireFly: where do things go faster if you shake it up a little bit fnord, like fnord
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14:22:03 <oerjan> FireFly: chat.freenode.net was redirected to localhost, i saw in the logs
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14:22:33 <int-e> oh. dns cache poisoning? nasty.
14:22:39 <FireFly> fungot: well, shaking up freenode is bad, mkay?
14:22:40 <fungot> FireFly: oh, cool. i like fnord.
14:22:49 <oerjan> int-e: i thought it was a countermeasure, actually
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14:23:20 <int-e> could be, but then it's an unpleasant one with lots of collateral damage.
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14:29:41 * boily sings a bardic song to entertain Freenode and give it buffs... “I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay ♪”
14:30:20 <oerjan> "Bluff Bluff Bluff the Stupid DOSsers..."
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14:33:26 <fizzie> They called it a countermeasure.
14:34:15 <fizzie> "We're currently experiencing what appears to be a DOS attack against our servers. Some servers are offline, and local IPs appear in the rotation, meaning that some connections will fail." says the topic of #freenode.
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14:42:13 <callforjudgement> or poison DNS caches to point them at localhost rather than somewhere more interesting
14:43:42 <b_jonas> you're on #esoteric and you don't understand why people do pointless stuff?
14:44:57 <oerjan> callforjudgement: it's because they HATE OUR FREEDOM hth
14:45:18 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: I don't consider the (ontopic) work #esoteric does pointless
14:45:30 <callforjudgement> I consider it potentially pointful just with a really low success chance
14:45:45 <callforjudgement> and, well, it earned me enough money to live on for a year, so it was worthwhile for me at least
14:45:47 <boily> b_jonas: everything we do ain't pointless. it's all part of a Grand Scheme. (I think. maybe. perhaps. well, in my fantasies, at least, so that's a start.)
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14:47:14 <FireFly> Speaking of pointless things, what happened with trying to find the midpoint of #esoteric?
14:47:15 <int-e> More importantly, esoteric programming languages don't actively hurt anybody.
14:47:34 <FireFly> int-e: even brainfuck derivatives?
14:47:44 <int-e> FireFly: ignorance is bliss, in that case.
14:51:18 <int-e> FireFly: It's not like esoteric language creators go around taking hostages and forcing people to use the languages. At least I'd like to believe that.
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15:49:51 <fizzie> TIL: When you buy stuff for $2 or so from ebay, what you get might not always be of high quality.
15:56:09 <boily> imho, a live bobcat for 2$ is nice. lots of meat!
15:56:29 <boily> (hopefully the bobcat's. I have an emotional attachment to mine.)
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16:00:24 <quintopia> Go write a Spiral program. Every minute you wait, I turn up the voltage.
16:01:48 <fizzie> It was a 52-to-58 mm "step-up" ring, for attaching filters to a camera lens.
16:02:10 <fizzie> Except it's got a ding in it, so it's no longer circular and the threads are all wonky, so you can't actually, you know, attach it to a lens.
16:02:48 <fizzie> Curiously, the envelope doesn't have any scratches, so perhaps it was pre-dinged before postage.
16:03:19 <fizzie> (I like the word "ding".)
16:07:13 <quintopia> hmm can you build a spike pit under the seller's living room?
16:10:38 <fizzie> That doesn't sound quite feasible.
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16:11:38 <quintopia> perhaps not, but it does sound like a lot of fun
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16:17:09 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140203-ding.jpg <- see
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17:13:28 <zzo38> The 6502 instruction set has NOP immediate where STA immediate might logically fit.
17:14:28 <FireFly> So essentially jump-over-the-next-byte?
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17:15:39 <FireFly> I don't understand the IA-32 reference :( "02 /r ADD r8,r/m8" ← I don't understand what /r there signifies
17:15:58 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, that is what NOP immediate does.
17:16:29 <FireFly> Seems weird to me for a NOP opcode to take an operand
17:17:11 <fizzie> FireFly: x86 has nops with operands.
17:17:43 <fizzie> FireFly: It's an easy way to make different-length nops if you have all kinds of addressing modes and such that can end up with operands of different sizes.
17:17:47 <zzo38> Only some of the NOP opcodes take operands; some don't.
17:18:24 <zzo38> They are all the same speed though.
17:18:52 <fizzie> The basic 0x90 NOP doesn't; the 0F 1F /0 takes a r/m16 or r/m32 operand, depending on operand size.
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17:20:22 <fizzie> You can make a nop of any size from 1 to 9 bytes (and possibly above, but that's where the table in the manual stops) with those two, by selecting the proper operands and prefixes.
17:24:59 <zzo38> 6502 also has NOP with different addressing modes, all of which are loads I think, and take the same time as other loads of those addressing modes but don't affect any flags or registers. It is also possible to use longer instructions that act similar to shorter ones and are just as fast too, for example ALR #$FF should be like LSR A but longer in case you need to change the instruction alignment or something like that.
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17:31:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: modern x86 also has lots of different nops nowadays, with different addressing modes,
17:32:16 <b_jonas> and conflicting statements in the intel vs amd optimization guides on which nops are best to use for padding (seriously)
17:32:48 <zzo38> Can you tell GCC which ones to use?
17:32:50 <b_jonas> mind you, they can be conflicting, that only means one is better to use on intel cpus and the other are better on amd cpus, but it's still funny
17:33:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: possibly. there's an interface at least for telling what cpu to optimize for, whether it will affect these nops I can't tell
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17:34:50 <callforjudgement> now I sort-of want to make an esolang entirely based around NOPs with side effects
17:34:59 <b_jonas> these don't have side effects
17:35:26 <callforjudgement> but it's unclear what the distinction is between a NOP with a side effect, and a command
17:35:28 <b_jonas> there are plenty of strange instructions that do have side effects as well of course
17:36:02 <callforjudgement> it's basically just "use the address calculation code to do arithmetic"
17:36:21 <zzo38> The NOPs in 6502 do load the data they are pointing to, but then ignore it.
17:36:24 <callforjudgement> given that it calculates an address, then does nothing with the memory it points to
17:36:39 <b_jonas> but it changes a register!
17:36:45 <callforjudgement> I can imagine that LEA in x86 loaded the address it pointed to once, but it certainly doesn't do so nowadays
17:37:00 <b_jonas> there are some prefetch instructions that you can think of as noops with side effects to optimize something later if you want such things
17:39:11 <b_jonas> then every cpu has a few such instructions that are sort of nops in that you can insert them anywhere without breaking the program, but not necessarily _remove_ them from a program without breaking it; or the reverse, ones you can remove from any program without breaking it but you can't just add them without breaking something.
17:40:23 <b_jonas> well, every modern cpu at least
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17:46:50 <kmc> callforjudgement: reading from memory can have side effects, so I would guess not
17:47:24 <callforjudgement> hmm, I liked my mentally confused model of x86 history in which the A20 line reset the processor
17:47:36 <int-e> callforjudgement: I very much doubt it ever did that; memory mapped IO is quite old. Memory areas not being present were the norm, and such memory access is abysmally slow.
17:47:54 <int-e> (lea, accessing memory)
17:47:55 <zzo38> Which addresses on PC have side effects for reading?
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17:49:18 <kmc> zzo38: I don't know of any on PC but it is possible to build an x86 system with such addresses, anyway
17:49:53 <kmc> also accesses may fail due to segment limits or paging
17:50:12 <b_jonas> kmc: exactly, and x86 even explicitly supports that because it lets you configure memory areas to like five crazy modes telling how much caching and pre-reading etc the cpu can do,
17:50:28 <int-e> I expect that even reading CGA memory caused grainy screens.
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17:50:35 <b_jonas> with the normal mode being used for ram which the cpu can assume works like ram, and crazier modes used for memory-mapped io
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17:56:26 <int-e> Hmm. Ok, the 486 introduced on-die caches, so that's when things became really interesting. (Some 386 boards had CPU-external caches and a couple of 386 clones had on-die ones. I didn't know that.)
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18:00:28 <b_jonas> huh? didn't all 386s have some on-die caches already?
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18:02:36 <int-e> No. The 386 had a 16 bytes prefetch queue for instructions though, which visibly violated memory ordering (writing to the next instruction would not affect execution).
18:03:26 <b_jonas> so it had off-die caches? did those run on the same clock cycle as the cpu?
18:03:33 <b_jonas> or at least did some of them run that way?
18:03:52 <int-e> Probably. I never had one of those.
18:04:20 <int-e> (I had a 386 once but without additional caches.)
18:04:21 <b_jonas> as for just prefetching instructions, well sure, wasn't that like started with the 6502?
18:05:48 <callforjudgement> but what if someone jumps to a memory-mapped address, but there's an interrupt on the same cycle, then the interrupt handler rewrites the return address on the stack?
18:06:44 <int-e> There were only two innovations on the 486: 1) including FPU and 2) adding a cache, both on the same die. Oh, and selling broken chips; AFAIR, early 486SX were 486DX with broken (and disabled) FPU; and some early 487 were actually fully functional 486.
18:07:05 <boily> fungot: do I exist now?
18:07:05 <fungot> boily: neither " studly" nor " fnord fnord
18:07:24 <boily> fungot: good enough for me.
18:07:24 <fungot> boily: old-style let ( which you're considering calling with).
18:07:41 <boily> fungot: indeed, I consider calling the Classical Let.
18:07:41 <fungot> boily: that is more fnord then scheme, and math. i guess it's implementable, and that is? :p
18:08:14 <boily> fungot: the Old Let of Yore has been implemented ages ago, although with a little bit less fnord.
18:08:14 <fungot> boily: argument checking or a check type? fnord
18:08:30 <boily> fungot: argument. type systems weren't as developped as they are now.
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18:09:41 <b_jonas> int-e: no way! the 486 introduced the cmpxchg instruction, which counts as an innovation to me.
18:10:05 <int-e> b_jonas: oh! right, fair enough.
18:10:36 <b_jonas> didn't they introduce a few more instructions too? those probably aren't really innovations like cmpxchg, just optimization stuff, but I wonder now
18:11:05 <callforjudgement> (and how do you determine whether it is or not, on a single-core processor? interrupt handlers?0
18:11:09 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it's for atomic test and set
18:11:15 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: yes, inteerrupt handlers
18:11:33 <callforjudgement> I know why a cmpxchg instruction would normally want to be atomic
18:11:35 <int-e> (Though cmpxchg is something that doesn't work very well without caching infrastructure. the CPU has to announce that it owns a small part of memory (a cache line) exclusively, and the rest of the system has to respect that.)
18:11:43 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it matters even for single cpu, because an interrupte can cause a task switch to another process which could observe an inconsistent state
18:12:25 <int-e> Lock cycles did the same before, but they were expensive. (xchg has always been atomic.)
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18:12:30 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: though wait
18:12:45 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: you're right, if it's a single cpu and no extra hardware, then there isn't much point asking if it's atomoic
18:12:51 <b_jonas> because the instruction itself can't be interrupted
18:13:10 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: still, it's an instruction you need because the multiple instruction emulatsions you can do on a 386 CAN be interrupted,
18:13:24 <b_jonas> which is why you need such an instruction even on a single-cpu system with no extra hardware
18:15:51 <callforjudgement> int-e: you can write a correct lock even with no atomic primitives but assign-constant, IIRC
18:16:18 <b_jonas> ah, apparently some (not all) 486 cpus have the cpuid instruction. you could say that's sort of an innovation.
18:16:21 <callforjudgement> clearly it can't be done without at least some guarantees of the value memory will take in the middle of at least one instruction
18:16:40 <callforjudgement> hmm, isn't CPUID pointless unless all CPUs you'd want to use it on have it?
18:17:00 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: not it's not. x86 does have a way to detect whether cpuid is supported,
18:17:22 <callforjudgement> screwing with the interrupt that Linux translates as SIGILL? that's what I'd guess
18:18:27 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: as for implementing lock, 386 (and earlier x86) does have a way to implement a lock, because they do hvae enough instructions to implement an aomtic _boolean_, sort of, but not enough to implement a lockless atomic full-word integer
18:19:55 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: lockless means you can alawys update the value of the atomic number without having to schedule other threads that are holding the lock so they can release it, so eg. you can even update a lockless atomic from a signal handler, but you can't wait on a lcok from a signal handler because the same thread outside the signal handler might be holding that mutex
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18:20:18 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: assignments are atomic if you do them right, but that's not enough
18:20:28 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: with just atomic assignment you can't implement a lock
18:20:34 <b_jonas> because you don't know what value you have overwritten
18:20:45 <b_jonas> you need somethign that can atomically read AND write the same bit
18:20:48 <int-e> There used to be tons of assembly snippets for detecting CPU versions. CPUID totally spoiled that kind of fun.
18:20:50 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: you can, but you need all the processes involved cooperating, and with unique IDs
18:20:57 <callforjudgement> you need one variable for each of them and one shared one, IIRC
18:21:19 <callforjudgement> basically it involves doing things in an order which always allows you to detect if the value got overwritten and try again
18:21:46 <b_jonas> int-e: don't worry, stuff is still complex with cpuid because of old cpus and historical cruft and because of intel/amd doing stuff differently
18:22:10 <callforjudgement> hmm… if you assume that halfway through a write, no memory locations other than the one you were writing to have a changed value
18:22:13 <b_jonas> int-e: so often you have to do like five tests to find out if a feature is supported if you want to go by the book and make sure it works on all cpus, past and future
18:22:21 <callforjudgement> it's probably possible to implement a lock with no atomic instructions at all
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18:22:45 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: or do what icc does and just grep for "GenuineIntel" in the ID string
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18:23:51 <callforjudgement> actually I'm surprised nobody's written a program that automatically patches icc-generated binaries to fix the CPU ID chek
18:24:31 <b_jonas> int-e: as in, first test for a cpu that is at least 186 with the push sp instruction (or something like that), then if it's at least 286 with dunno what instruction, then if it's at least 386 with the pushf/popf instruction, and then test if it has cpuid with the pushf/popf instruction but a different bit (I could be mixing this up), then check four different cpuid values, each of which is valid only if the previous one has some bit set correctly,
18:24:44 <b_jonas> and only if all that succeeds can you be sure you can use a feature.
18:25:32 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it does, but one of them pushes hte value of sp before and one pushes the value after the push
18:25:37 <int-e> callforjudgement: does push sp push the new or the old SP? that's the difference you'll check
18:25:50 <callforjudgement> this is surprisingly similar to detecting the INTERCAL variant you're running on
18:25:53 <b_jonas> and it might not be 86 vs 186, it could be something else
18:26:01 <b_jonas> I'm not sure which one is which
18:26:04 <b_jonas> and there might be some shortcuts too
18:26:09 <callforjudgement> I guess the real question is whether you can subsequently correctly restore the stack pointer with pop sp
18:26:18 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: there's no pop sp
18:27:03 * boily pop pop pop pop pop ♪
18:27:56 <int-e> http://f.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27307
18:28:05 <b_jonas> ah, apparently 486 also introduces a bswap instruction whcih lets you swap endianness of 32 bit integers with a single instruction
18:28:42 <callforjudgement> the x86 series was always full of crazily specific instructions that hardly anyone uses
18:28:57 <b_jonas> what? that's _not_ a crazily specific instrunction
18:29:18 <b_jonas> there are crazily specific instructions for historical compatibility
18:29:24 <b_jonas> some of them are thrown out in x86_64 of course
18:30:07 <int-e> salc is fun because it's almost the same as sbb al,al
18:30:19 <int-e> (but doesn't affect flags)
18:30:34 <int-e> (oh and it's 1 byte shorter, 1 instead of 2)
18:31:24 <b_jonas> no look, lahf/sahf are z80 compatibility instructions,
18:31:34 <int-e> b_jonas: still crazy
18:31:45 <int-e> callforjudgement: so does salc
18:31:52 <b_jonas> and the decimal instructions and the parity flag are also way crazier
18:32:13 <callforjudgement> you have to set or clear the carry manually if you want to do that
18:32:30 <int-e> the undocumented aam 13 / aad 13 is also fun (especially since some clones only implemented the documented base 10 versions)
18:32:40 <b_jonas> int-e: what? what's aam 13?
18:32:59 <int-e> same as aam 10, but in base 13. (the base can be any unsigned byte)
18:33:33 <int-e> so ... ah' = al / 13, al' = al % 13.
18:34:07 <b_jonas> the crazy part of salc is that it's undocumented, and that 386 already has a documente two-byte equivalent (setc al) iirc
18:34:29 <int-e> callforjudgement: yes.
18:34:50 <b_jonas> where by undocumented I mean that neither intel nor amd documentes it
18:34:51 <int-e> b_jonas: didn't they document it eventually? I forgot.
18:34:58 <callforjudgement> that instruction actually does seem genuinely useful, but it should probably work on larger registers than bytes
18:35:07 <int-e> I learned it from the TASM instruction set reference ;)
18:36:10 <int-e> setc al will be 3 bytes.
18:36:53 <b_jonas> the craziest instruction imo is arpl. the crazy part is that it takes up one of the precious 256 primary opcode bytes because it was added in 286 and at that point only privilaged instructions were prefixed
18:37:09 <int-e> *and* it will set al to 0 or 1. It's not the same at all ;)
18:37:09 <b_jonas> 386 was the first cpu to add general purpose instructions with a prefix byte so they don't take up instruction space
18:37:30 <int-e> callforjudgement: adjust request privilege level ... uhm ... I forgot :)
18:37:45 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: dunno, it does some crazy very simple arithmetic thingy on a number that you rarely need
18:38:04 <int-e> something like "take current pl and some passed in a register; set pl to the maximum of those."?
18:38:12 <int-e> callforjudgement: 80286
18:38:19 <int-e> perhaps 186, I never dealt with that.
18:38:38 <callforjudgement> although it's logical that it exists, given the numbering scheme
18:38:39 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: 186 only adds a few instructions
18:39:11 <int-e> people call it 586, but I think that's not official.
18:39:35 <b_jonas> int-e: is the 686 also non-official?
18:40:08 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: yeah, components having short numbers worked well when creating a new chip was really expensive
18:41:10 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh. Some clones carried on the tradition. That may explain the 686.
18:41:47 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: what? no way
18:41:56 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: I mean, for a cpu it can be that expensive,
18:42:03 <b_jonas> but for some ordinary small chip it's way cheaper
18:42:20 <b_jonas> cpus are complicated of course, more complicated than they were in the hayday
18:42:44 <callforjudgement> actually, IIRC the main issue in constructing complex chips is that they use more silicon area
18:43:00 <callforjudgement> and a single impurity has a decent chance of throwing off the circuit
18:43:15 <callforjudgement> so the larger the area, the greater the chance that the chip will hit at least one problematic impurity and not work at all
18:43:29 <callforjudgement> whereas with a small chip, like 90% of them will work fine, it might only be like 10% for a large one
18:43:41 <b_jonas> and it's impossible to test, yeah
18:43:53 <b_jonas> that's sort of also the problem with tft screens
18:46:06 <callforjudgement> (and along different lines, also the reason that very large screens still tend to be plasma even nowadays)
18:46:36 <zzo38> You could make simpler CPUs though
18:46:46 <zzo38> A lot of modern ones tend to be too complicated
18:47:29 <callforjudgement> the generalized version of moore's law stopped applying to clock speed ages ago
18:48:59 <callforjudgement> I think the current approach to try to get a bit of extra clock speed is to reduce the voltage
18:51:07 <zzo38> You could still simplify it and have a faster speed, possibly by not having implicit caching and pipelining and out of order execution and all of that stuff automatically, and requiring them to be programmed in manually instead, and you could also use multi cores
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18:55:38 <callforjudgement> I just observed someone complaining that TV shows tended to be hosted by celebrities
18:55:56 <callforjudgement> I guess you could get a new person nobody had heard of every week to avoid that, but it'd be awkward
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19:37:14 <int-e> Oh obscure x86 instructions. This is one of my favourite x86 snippets: cmp al, 10; sbb al, 0x69; das. It converts a value less than 16 to the corresponding hex digit (0123456789ABCDEF), all in 5 bytes.
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19:41:31 <kmc> it's too bad that ascii/bcd instructions don't exist in long mode :/
19:43:56 <kmc> with SSE you could load 0x46454443424139383736353433323130 into a register as a lookup table and maybe use it for this
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20:05:02 <b_jonas> int-e: oh wow! so AAM is encoded as two bytes, D4 0A, where the second byte is an immediate giving the base,
20:05:32 <b_jonas> int-e: and AMD actually documents the general form with any immediate
20:06:18 <b_jonas> int-e: intel documents it as well
20:06:53 <b_jonas> I guess I never really tried to understand those six decimal arithmetic byte instructions of x86
20:10:54 <boily> (meanwhile, new unique in DCSS trunk! it's a cat!)
20:12:46 <b_jonas> who is he? does he come from some prior source?
20:12:59 <b_jonas> like, a fantasy novel or role playing sourcebook or something?
20:13:38 <boily> no, she's just Boris' old familiar. she's a level 3 wizard, and'll be encountered pretty early in the game.
20:18:03 <boily> and another unique in the works! Vashnia the elite naga sharpshooter!
20:18:13 <boily> (along with Asterion the bufferd minotaur.)
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20:21:05 <b_jonas> boily: naga sharpshooter? how does that work? I thoguht nagas didn't have hands.
20:23:02 <boily> and once again, she's a she.
20:23:20 <Bike> internet assigned numbers authority on compact disk
20:23:37 <boily> Bike: close. “I Am Not A Crawl Developer”.
20:24:04 <boily> b_jonas: well, a lot of the commits made in the past few weeks concern new monster sets and squads, à la Angband.
20:24:25 <boily> like, you're going to encounter more groups of thematic monsters with speciation and stuff.
20:24:50 <boily> (specialisation? specification? divergemilarity?)
20:37:22 <kmc> shachaf: Rust now supports cross-crate macros, as well as defining "procedural macros" (AST manipulation with arbitrary Rust code) without rebuilding the compiler
20:42:18 <boily> pursuing to the constant deaddition/unremoval of a possible Forest branch, https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=user:hangedman:forest_dispersal&s[]=forest
20:42:51 <boily> I want trees, fungot it!
20:43:41 <Bike> trees in a dungeon?
20:44:30 <boily> don't question the trees!
20:44:48 <boily> trees are nice. they are green. they burn well :D
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20:55:16 <FireFly> Is brainfuck with [] as do-while Turing-complete?
20:56:39 <FireFly> I'm sure someone must've asked themselves that before, but I can't find anything and it's not obvious whether that's the case to me
21:02:27 <`^_^v> does anyone have any recommendations for resources for learning forth
21:03:18 <kmc> what do you mean by "as do-while"
21:03:50 <Bike> `^_^v: http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/ maybe
21:04:29 <shachaf> presumably "[ behaves like do { and ] behaves like } while (*p);"
21:05:29 * boily mapoles the snobbing fungot
21:05:56 <FireFly> compared to the typical while (*p) { and }
21:06:10 <FireFly> essentially, treat [ as a no-op and ] as usual
21:06:32 <fizzie> I have a feeling that was discussed?
21:08:05 <FireFly> Well, I can't find anything, though 'brainfuck "do-while"' might not be the best search query
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21:12:04 <fizzie> I can only find the skip-one variant.
21:14:18 <kmc> i like that a large fraction of all do-while loops in C use the condition "while (0);"
21:14:25 <kmc> possibly even a majority, depending on how you count
21:16:03 <fizzie> For the regular while loop, while (1) probably is quite frequent too. At least compared to any single alternative.
21:18:35 <b_jonas> FireFly: good question. dunno
21:18:52 <b_jonas> FireFly: in this bf variant, what does - do if the cell has value 0 ?
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21:20:20 <FireFly> so [-] would still zero a cell, at least (although, taking 256 iterations if the cell was already 0)
21:21:07 <fizzie> +[-] would be fine even if it didn't wrap around, for any nonnegative value.
21:21:26 <b_jonas> FireFly: my guess is that it's still Turing-complete, but that's just a guess
21:21:42 <fizzie> I have the same guess, but someone should work that out.
21:22:07 <b_jonas> maybe give this language a name, write it up on the wiki :-)
21:22:41 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure creating brainfuck derivatives is a grave sin
21:22:51 <b_jonas> with a simple interpreter (it doesn't have to be fast, just correct and consistent).
21:23:10 <b_jonas> FireFly: but you've already committed that sin. does documenting it make it worse?
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21:25:24 <b_jonas> though you could say I have created one as well by asking how - behaves on underflow
21:25:35 <b_jonas> because that means I imagined at least two possibilities of how it can behave
21:26:19 <fizzie> It's that many-worlds quantum thing. Every decision you make creates new brainfuck derivatives.
21:29:22 <b_jonas> ok, I think I can prove it's turing-complete
21:29:29 <b_jonas> let me run the proof on you
21:31:00 <b_jonas> first, if you have three cells x y z you can copy x to y destroying z the same way as in bf: you zero y and z, then increase y and z as many times as you can decrease x, then zero y, then increase x and y as many times as you decrease z, right?
21:31:07 * boily munches on popcorn while he watches the hot'n'dirty proof action
21:31:23 <b_jonas> now suppose you have a bf program, and I'll tell how to translate this to bf-dowhile
21:32:44 <b_jonas> suppose the original program has brackets nested in at most D depth, then simulate each cell of the original tape by (9*D+9) consecutive cells in the new machine where 9 is a constant later to be determined
21:34:31 <b_jonas> the trick is, to simulate a bf loop, you save a copy of the value of the cell under the pointer when you enter the first iteration of that bf loop, copying it with you to every segment of the new tape you visit all throughout the loop.
21:35:48 <b_jonas> you execute the bf loop like a do-while loop, but not in the same space as the outer code but in new cells in the same segments,
21:36:44 <b_jonas> then in the end of the loop you check that saved value and copy the new values to a conditional place, which is either the outer simulated tape or some junk location, depending on whether the original loop ran at least once
21:36:53 <b_jonas> there are just two problems,
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21:37:18 <b_jonas> one is how to initialize the inner copy of the tape, the second is how to copy it back
21:37:59 <b_jonas> for this you somehow have to track the interval the head has moved during the loop, and also where the head ended up in the end of the loop
21:38:32 <b_jonas> that should be possible with some extra cells in each segment, only I'll have to check if it's also possible in bf-dowhile
21:40:40 <b_jonas> to save the leftmost position the head has moved to, you just reserve a cell in each segment that contains 0 everywhere the head has moved but 1 in the leftmost position, initialize this to 1 where you start, and set it to 0 before every simulated left move inside the loop and to 1 after it
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21:41:24 <b_jonas> then you can seek back there with a do-while loop
21:41:35 <b_jonas> similarly you can save and find the rightmost position and head position -- I think
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21:42:17 <b_jonas> but how do you do a conditional move in bf-dowhile?
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21:42:51 <b_jonas> that is, how to do a conditional copy of a value to a destination cell a fixed offset away depending on the value of a cell a fixed offset away
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21:44:05 <b_jonas> right, I think you can do such a conditional move
21:44:16 <fizzie> The easier way to TCness might be to just adapt some of the things that have been done to show regular brainfuck it.
21:44:22 <b_jonas> you need to set up some cells correctly and it's sort of a waste of space, but I think it's possible
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21:44:44 <b_jonas> and I think you can use that to initialize the copy of the tape as well, though it gets ugly
21:44:51 <b_jonas> I think it's turing-complete
21:45:13 <fizzie> To be fair, you thought that from the start, and that was just lots of handwaving.
21:45:25 <b_jonas> and if D is fixed you can even give a very simple finite automaton translator
21:45:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, but I wanted to convince myself most importantly
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21:50:22 <b_jonas> this would be a very wasteful emulation
21:50:31 <b_jonas> you'd need like a ton of cells
21:50:48 <b_jonas> but then, with brainfuck that shouldn't be surprising
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21:53:53 <b_jonas> also, this can't translate input and output statments,
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21:54:17 <b_jonas> but that's no surprise: in bf-dowhile you can't write a program that either writes empty output or non-empty output depending on the input
21:54:30 <b_jonas> but that's no problem, bf without io is still turing complete
21:56:42 <kmc> shachaf: hm, references are implicitly convertible to raw pointers in Rust
21:56:45 <kmc> that seems weird
22:08:19 <b_jonas> you could mostly fix the output by buffering, I don't know about the input
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22:11:43 <shachaf> kmc: what are rust references?
22:11:46 <shachaf> are they like c++ references?
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22:13:01 <kmc> also known as "borrowed pointers"
22:13:12 <kmc> but "reference" is now the official term
22:14:14 <kmc> C++ references have really weird semantics and aren't really a first class type
22:14:41 <kmc> Rust references are more like plain old pointers, except they're non-nullable and provide memory safety via region checking
22:15:03 <shachaf> so you can use a borrowed pointer as a raw pointer?
22:17:52 <shachaf> doesn't that sort of defeat some purpose or other
22:18:12 <shachaf> well, at least the pointer still counts as borrowed within that block, i guess
22:18:54 <kmc> it doesn't defeat memory safety because dereferencing a raw pointer can only happen in unsafe code
22:25:18 <kmc> shachaf: probably
22:25:20 <kmc> it's a cool language
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23:17:05 <kmc> `relcome Nathanator1416j
23:17:14 <kmc> HackEgo...
23:17:46 <kmc> Nathanator1416j: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:18:33 <Nathanator1416j> Working on a new esolang, BF like, quick quines, but hard to ake complex ones
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23:20:01 <kmc> okay! ttyl
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01:12:58 <Sgeo> Rule 100.6b Players can use the _Magic_ Store & Event Locator to find tournaments in their area
01:15:04 <Taneb> It is weird knowing people IRL who know me as "Taneb"
01:20:41 <coppro> Sgeo: yes, it's the best rule
01:22:05 <kmc> Sgeo: does that mean they are allowed to do so during a game?
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02:18:49 <pikhq> I would assume so.
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03:43:12 <kmc> https://twitter.com/EvilHaskellTips
03:53:54 <kmc> https://twitter.com/mtabini/status/430159283683360768/photo/1
03:55:01 <pikhq> Is CGFloat an IEEE single float?
03:56:01 <pikhq> Oh. It is a float with the property sizeof(CGFloat) == sizeof(void*). :(
03:57:07 <pikhq> So... it can't actually even store a full US phone number on 32-bit systems.
03:57:54 <pikhq> "+1 555 867 5309" is greater than 2^24-1. :(
03:59:25 <pikhq> Hell, so's "+1 000 000 0000".
04:00:03 <pikhq> Which is not a legal number, but that's neither here nor there.
04:00:05 <kmc> who needs this +1 though
04:00:06 <kmc> this is america
04:00:36 <kmc> even ITU agrees that we're number one
04:00:44 <pikhq> There are places in the country where you actually have to dial "1 XXX XXX XXXX" though.
04:00:47 <pikhq> Even for local numbers.
04:35:35 <lifthrasiir> "+82 10 XXXX YYYY"? (that's a lot greater than 2^24-1)
04:36:25 <lifthrasiir> and I think E.164 allows the maximum of 15 digits
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05:08:37 <Sgeo> Isn't that the sort of trick people would try in the 1970s?
05:09:03 <Sgeo> Right alongside two digit years?
05:09:15 <Sgeo> (Not sure why I'm blaming the 70s specifically)
05:14:02 <Bike> i for one have no idea what you are talking about
05:14:38 <Sgeo> Y2k, storing two digits of the year in order to save memory
05:20:29 <kmc> using a float for phone numbers is also space-inefficient, though
05:22:13 <kmc> > logBase 2 (10**15)
05:24:33 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: I was assuming this was American, and also I'm only really familiar with the North American dialing plan. :)
05:40:48 <fizzie> +358 40 NNN NNNN is a typical Finnish mobile phone number.
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05:53:06 <pikhq> +1 NNN NNN NNNN is a North American number.
05:53:47 <pikhq> (can't be more specific than that; that's the scheme, there's not a more nation-specific easy prefix, nor is there such a thing for cell numbers)
05:53:54 <Sgeo> Kindle is so annoying to hold compared to the Nook
05:54:01 <Sgeo> Trying to remind myself that the software is far better
05:54:21 <kmc> if you have to remind yourself, is it really better?
05:54:59 <Sgeo> I'm likely to get used to the lack of bugs and ability to do simple things like hilighting across pages and likely to take that for granted
05:55:00 <Bike> did you like buy both
05:55:07 <Sgeo> Bike: yes. Not at the same time though
05:55:52 <Sgeo> I think partially wanted the glow light stuff, partially sick of the Nook's perpetual bugginess, partially ... ads maybe
05:56:09 <Sgeo> Also remembering that the Kindle had a feature that I kept wishing the Nook had
05:57:52 <fizzie> 040, 041, 044, 0450, 046 and 050 (the initial 0 is dropped when used with the country code) used to be operator-specific prefixes for mobile phone networks, but they changed it so that you can keep the number when switching operators, so they're all mixed up these days.
06:11:19 <Bike> how consumerist
06:32:40 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: the same thing happened in Korea, +82 (0)10 vs. +82 (0)1[1-9].
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06:35:38 <Sgeo> http://necros.gibdon.com/scene-music-minor
06:36:03 <Sgeo> Pentagonal Dreams is "less in quality than average, or short" according to this person
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06:41:46 <Sgeo> 'infinity' which is on the main list, is about as short as pentagonal dreams
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07:08:52 <fizzie> Then it must be "less in quality than average".
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07:45:53 <kmc> Oona Räisänen @windyoona: "Russians keep referring to me as Финский инженер (Finnish engineer). I wonder if it means something else."
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07:51:54 <fizzie> I read (some of) the Slashdot comments about that helicopter thing, and I wish I hadn't.
07:52:25 <fizzie> Because it seemed to be approximately 90% about her gender.
07:57:58 <kmc> she's pretty awesome
07:58:20 <kmc> waiting for your meal at a restaurant? why not reverse engineer the wireless paging protocol http://www.windytan.com/2013/09/the-burger-pager.html
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08:00:38 <kmc> i wonder what her job is
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08:05:13 <fizzie> Software developer, I think. We have some friends in common. (You know, Finland; it's not such a giant community.)
08:05:52 <fizzie> At the company with the silliest YouTube ads.
08:05:56 <fizzie> Let's see if I can find one.
08:06:14 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jym9rfQgec there you go
08:06:49 <fizzie> (I keep getting that in front of my videos, it's probably a geographically Finland-localized ad.)
08:08:17 <kmc> wow. what?
08:08:21 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah obviously the comments should be about how she's finnish
08:08:34 <fizzie> oklopol: Right, exactly!
08:08:47 <fizzie> (There was a bit of that too, since it said "Finnish" in the title.)
08:09:27 <kmc> wow this video is available in 4K
08:11:08 <fizzie> Does it make you want to go work there?
08:11:35 <fizzie> (It didn't really "work" for me, personally.)
08:14:06 <kmc> ... it kind of does, yeah
08:14:20 <kmc> but also makes me feel like i'm not cool enough to work there
08:14:47 <kmc> which is the problem with this sort of thing
08:15:44 <kmc> but their incredible committment to the "rockstar" trope is almost enough to make it un-terrible
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08:16:11 <kmc> looks like they do some haskell too
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08:17:58 <fizzie> They were "best place to work at" (according to the Great Place to Work Institute's survey) in Finland for 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011, but not in the last couple of years.
08:19:42 <kmc> wonder what happened
08:20:49 <fizzie> Oh, I guess in 2012 at least they just didn't take part.
08:21:13 <fizzie> You know, to be fair to other companies and all that.
08:26:16 <shachaf> if you work at the best place to work at does that mean there's nowhere to go but down :'(
08:26:47 <kmc> and just by joining you're probably making the company worse :(
08:27:34 <fizzie> I think you're supposed to think of it so that if you switch jobs, you'll just have to help make the new place even better.
08:28:08 <shachaf> apparently i work at the "best place to work at" (according to the Great Place to Work Institute's survey)
08:28:27 <fizzie> Globally, or regionally? (Do they even do a global ranking?)
08:28:30 <kmc> "best place at which to work" (according to grammar pedants)
08:29:00 <Bike> i've honestly never heard anyone do the preposition thing
08:29:01 <shachaf> kmc: p. sure that's a rule grammar pedants invented to have something to ped
08:29:17 <shachaf> fizzie: i don't know, i just went to their web page and clicked around
08:29:52 <shachaf> but these are all us companies so i guess it's regional
08:29:55 <b_jonas> guys, I realized something
08:30:52 <b_jonas> the 220 V cable between the mains and the power supply is the oldest piece of technology we have in our computers. it's been exactly the same type of cable since the XT.
08:31:03 <kmc> mine's only 115 V :(
08:31:20 <b_jonas> almost everything else in the hardware and software have been replaced with something more modern since much later.
08:31:25 <fizzie> This one's 230V, nominally. I'm sure that was the point.
08:31:45 <kmc> b_jonas: anyway that's an interesting observation
08:31:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it used to be 220 V nominal back then, now it's 230 V nominal.
08:32:10 <kmc> (the cable is IEC 60320 C13, for what it's worth)
08:32:42 <b_jonas> At home I'm still using the same computer as the one I've first had on my own, since about 18 years ago, but it's only the same computer because I think of it like that.
08:32:56 <b_jonas> Every part has been replaced at least once, most parts have been replaced multiple times,
08:33:11 <shachaf> you can't replace the same part twice
08:33:17 <b_jonas> and at one point almost the whole hardware got replaced at the same time (but the hard disk stayed the same at that point).
08:33:19 <shachaf> it's just the same part because you think of it like that
08:33:27 <kmc> i have like 20 of those cables
08:33:35 <shachaf> (but then did you truly replace it........!!)
08:33:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: exactly, and it's the same computer only because I think of it like that.
08:33:55 <shachaf> i don't think i use desktop computers anymore
08:34:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: when all the hw got replaced, I could have decided it's a new computer only I migrated the hard disk and the software and the desk and some other stuff.
08:34:49 <shachaf> i don't think i trust this Great Place to Work Institute v. much
08:35:09 * kmc -> sleepytime
08:35:28 <kmc> good night
08:35:41 <b_jonas> So anyway, the power cable isn't the same piece either, but that's the only part that hasn't been upgraded to something more modern. The same power cable I first used might still work today.
08:36:13 <shachaf> in the really old days it was just a cable
08:36:52 <shachaf> but now it's a power cable
08:37:04 <b_jonas> I think the power led might be another candidate. Since when has that been using the same two-pin arrangement on the motherboard?
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08:40:50 <fizzie> The 3.5mm jack is also a reasonably old design.
08:41:31 <Bike> god, hooking up the main bus on the motherboard was a pita. fucking speaker on a wire with this shitty ass hookup.
08:43:28 <Bike> came out at least four times during build, and that's where the fucking power button connects!
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10:28:30 <SeeNoEvil> Guest1732: trying to understand IRC commands, and what time zone you are in.
10:30:13 <SeeNoEvil> Seem to recall some earlier chat where you seemed interested in eigenratios.
10:30:34 <elliott__> I don't know much about them though... that must have been ages ago
10:31:43 <elliott__> my condolences, the further you go back the more annoying I am :P
10:32:46 <SeeNoEvil> You had a novel idea for defining a self-interpreter that wasn't "cheating" - having an eigenratio > 1.
10:33:20 <SeeNoEvil> Might not have been you. But I think it was - at least an "elliot".
10:33:40 <elliott__> yeah, that was mine, I think, though perhaps not originally or solely
10:33:57 <elliott__> I quite like it, but IIRC you can just cheat in a more elaborate way by defining the host language in a way that lets you do a cheating self-interpreter with an eigenratio slightly above 1
10:34:19 <elliott__> like, an eval instruction that adds a slight slowdown.
10:36:06 <SeeNoEvil> I think it might be a bit tricky to do I think.
10:36:46 <SeeNoEvil> I think... I think... I think... it might be a bit trick.
10:37:25 <SeeNoEvil> I think you should create an actual working example.
10:37:44 <elliott__> let's say you have an implementation where every instruction takes 1s to execute
10:37:53 <elliott__> but when you call eval, any evals in the code you're evalling take 2s instead
10:37:59 <elliott__> and then 4s when you nest deeper, etc.
10:38:18 <elliott__> (this runs into another problem with this kind of stuff -- eigenratios are sort of an implementation-dependent notion rather than something inherent to the language)
10:39:53 <SeeNoEvil> Not always. Implement your own interpreter for the SUBLEQ interpreter on eigneration.blogspot,com and see it you do it in a way that produces a different eigenratio from the 34.xxx value.
10:40:59 <SeeNoEvil> I mean, you create the bottom level interpreter, and then run a stack of the self-interpreter on the blog.....
10:43:50 <SeeNoEvil> In your example with eval(eval(eval(something))), how would the inner instances "know" to run slower?
10:48:04 <SeeNoEvil> This one: http://eigenratios.blogspot.co.nz/2006/09/mark-ii-oisc-self-interpreter.html
10:51:28 <SeeNoEvil> Gotta go. "I'll be back" some other time.
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13:48:48 <metasepia> ENVA 041320Z 12008KT 080V150 CAVOK 06/M04 Q1008 TEMPO 16015G25KT RMK WIND 670FT 15010KT
13:49:49 <metasepia> CYUL 041342Z 21006KT 8SM SCT037 BKN120 M12/M14 A3045 RMK SC3AC4 SLP314
13:50:00 <metasepia> EFHK 041320Z 17006KT 2500 FZDZ BR BKN002 M00/M01 Q1023 TEMPO 1000 BKN001
14:12:51 <boily> Gregor`: USE YOUR NECROMANCY SKILLZ AND REVIVE YOUR BOTS PLZKTHX.
14:13:44 <boily> Taneb: the Wisdom doesn't have /no+dles/i, but it has ramen: 拉麵是一種類型的麵條縫製從原始樹木。hth
14:14:01 <Taneb> The wisdom so does have Nooodles I'm looking at it right now
14:14:19 <elliott__> would anyone like to take over hosting the wiki
14:14:54 <oerjan> !sh Hey I'm still alive!
14:14:56 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.31598: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /tmp/input.31598: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
14:15:08 <oerjan> !sh echo Hey I'm still alive!
14:15:08 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.31656: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /tmp/input.31656: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
14:15:21 <oerjan> !sh echo Hey I'm still alive\!
14:15:22 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.31732: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /tmp/input.31732: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
14:15:34 <oerjan> !sh echo 'Hey I'm still alive!'
14:15:35 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.31784: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /tmp/input.31784: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
14:15:40 <Taneb> Anyway, I have a lecture to attend 2 miles away
14:15:43 <boily> Taneb: I fail at grep.
14:15:51 <oerjan> !sh echo "Hey I'm still alive!"
14:16:44 <boily> !sh echo "~echo !sh echo \"~echo hello\""
14:16:44 <EgoBot> ~echo !sh echo "~echo hello"
14:18:51 * boily shields his bot from meddling Scandinavians
14:21:02 <elliott__> well, that is not a reassuring response
14:26:19 <boily> elliott__: btw, by “hosting over”, you mean only yielding your admin responsibilities to someone else, or move everything to a new server also?
14:27:24 <elliott__> the latter; handing over root access on the box I store semi-sensitive stuff and IRC from isn't my idea of fun :p
14:27:57 <elliott__> and the problem isn't sysop duty so much as upgrading mediawiki and so on -- it's not actually much effort, I've just been neglecting it and appear likely to continue to do so for the forseeable future
14:29:47 <elliott__> wow, it's been two years since I took over the wiki
14:31:35 <oklopol> elliott__: where has your time gone
14:31:50 <oklopol> have you started doing the booze
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14:34:25 <elliott__> yeah, I've been drunk for the past year
14:34:45 <elliott__> getting my affairs in order before my inevitable death from liver failure, etc. etc. etc.
14:36:08 <oklopol> SO UMM WHY DID YOU SAY "elliott__> I don't have time for it any more" IF YOU MEANT THAT YOU ARE JUST LAZY, THAT SEEMS A BIT ILLOGICAL COULD YOU EXPLAIN
14:38:01 <oklopol> so my phd thesis is currently 114 pages
14:38:39 <oklopol> how proud are you on a scale from 1 to \omega
14:38:53 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
14:40:21 <oklopol> (most of it is doodles of dicks and walruses)
14:42:36 <boily> oklopol: ω² - 2ω, but only iff your dick-to-walrus ratio is within φ±ε.
14:42:56 <fizzie> "only if and only if".
14:43:44 <boily> sorry. I RAS syndromized that.
15:05:22 <b_jonas> boily: that isn't even between 1 to omega
15:05:30 <b_jonas> besides, it doesn't even make sensee
15:06:48 -!- password2 has joined.
15:08:58 <boily> !sh bin/relcome password2
15:08:59 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.397: line 1: bin/relcome: No such file or directory
15:09:13 <boily> Gregor`: I can't relcome people!
15:09:50 <b_jonas> oklopol: I'm 1075000000 proud of you on that scale
15:13:39 <oklopol> although i think that's a bit closer to 0 than \omega :(
15:14:18 <oklopol> also ω² - 2ω is a perfectly cromulent surreal number
15:25:06 <boily> but, a question remains unanswered: of what use are surreal numbers?
15:27:01 <int-e> I like them as an example of a field that fails to be complete because there are too many numbers between 0 and 1
15:27:25 <int-e> (I am, btw, still amazed that they form a field at all.)
15:27:44 * boily 's brains choke on int-e's affirmation
15:28:15 <int-e> oh ... ordered field.
15:30:33 <int-e> hyperreal numbers are used in non-standard analysis. is there a nice way to map those into the surreals?
15:31:21 <boily> what is non-standard analysis, and while we're on the subject, standard analysis?
15:34:49 <int-e> Ah I don't know this stuff. I'd say that analysis is abstract calculus; you have measure theory, integrals, derivatives, function spaces, many notions of convergence ... but ultimately based on real numbers. non-standard analysis has inifiniesimals and inifinities, allowing things like the dirac delta function. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function
15:34:50 <oklopol> non-standard analysis is when you take an ultrafilter U on N, and say that a hyperreal number is a function R^N and a < b if the set of coordinates i s.t. a_i < b_i is in U (exactly one of the sets {i | a_i < b_i}, {i | a_i > b_i}, {i | a_i = b_i} is in U, because it's an ultrafilter)
15:35:15 <int-e> (and oklopol just provided the definition of a hyperreal number)
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15:35:21 <oklopol> and then you have a lot of numbers between 0 and any number larger than it, because any sequence going to 0 provides you with one
15:35:30 <fizzie> (There should probably be a backup relcome in fungot.)
15:35:37 <oklopol> yeah definitions are totally better than explanations
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15:36:09 <int-e> Oh fungot is back. I wonder whether it's become smarter.
15:36:09 <fungot> int-e: but a computer science textbook than a scheme source that exercises every aspect of a lisp name, i presume
15:36:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:38:36 <FireFly> Ten slots for strings, that could be referenced as str:N in a ^def I suppose
15:38:37 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
15:38:48 <fungot> +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++++++.>++++++.<<----.>----------------------------------.<----.>>+++.<<-----------.+.>>>.<++++++.<<-.>>-----.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------.<+.>>++.>+++++.<<<+.>>>+.<-.<.>----------------------.<++++++++++++.------------.>----------------------.<<------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.<---.<++++.++++++++.>-
15:39:42 <int-e> @bf +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++++++.>++++++.<<----.>----------------------------------.<----.>>+++.<<-----------.+.>>>.<++++++.<<-.>>-----.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------.<+.>>++.>+++++.<<<+.>>>+.<-.<.>----------------------.<++++++++++++.------------.>----------------------.<<------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.<---.<++++.+++...
15:40:08 <FireFly> Should be easy enough to add a backup welcome, then
15:40:19 <int-e> I guess that string is incomplete anyway.
15:41:13 <FireFly> I guess it only likes that in ^def's
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15:41:35 <boily> int-e: thanks. and about the Dirac: I guess that's why the teachers told us that it wasn't kinda like a regular function, waved their hands, and continued teaching.
15:42:00 <boily> (yay engineering! we do stuff with advanced maths, but don't know why!)
15:42:11 <fizzie> The ^str does not necessarily print completely, if it's too long.
15:42:26 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ), blsqbot !
15:42:54 <fizzie> I guess it's like that because of the ).
15:44:19 <FireFly> What's problematic with the ) ?
15:45:01 <int-e> If I forget to close an opening parenthesis (like this
15:45:17 <int-e> ) then the closing one will typically be on the next line ;)
15:45:17 <jconn> int-e: |syntax error
15:45:17 <jconn> int-e: | then the closing one will typically be on the next line;)
15:45:43 <int-e> it's still unbalanced.
15:45:45 <boily> STOP UNBALANCING THE UNIVERSE, YOU VILE FUNGOTTER!
15:46:02 <int-e> boily: you closed a parenthesis that I closed as well.
15:46:23 <fizzie> FireFly: A lone ) is not outputtable with Underload, which is what static strings like that on fungot usually use.
15:46:23 <fungot> fizzie: there is nothing behind the grape-0 includes all brainfuck programs with up to sixty five thousand states. feel particularly compelled to read it.
15:46:46 <int-e> boily: you should be happy that I'm not compensating for the smileys.
15:47:27 <FireFly> ^def tmp bf ,[.,]!does i/o work here too?
15:48:04 <boily> ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo test!
15:48:04 <fungot> ~echo ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo test!
15:48:04 <metasepia> ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo test!
15:48:04 <fungot> ~echo ^tmp ~echo ^tmp ~echo test!
15:48:05 <fungot> ~echo ^tmp ~echo test!
15:48:14 * boily grins like a maniac
15:48:15 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
15:48:39 <int-e> ^def aux ^bf str:1
15:48:39 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
15:49:07 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
15:51:31 <fizzie> No need to be so literal.
15:51:59 <fizzie> There's something in 5 and 9 too.
15:52:11 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
15:52:17 <fizzie> Oh, that's just the same.
15:52:21 <fungot> foo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, ...
15:52:49 <fungot> ,[.,]++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++>+++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>++.--------------------------.>>+++.++++++++++++++.+++++++.<+.>+++.--.<++.<.<++++.>>>++.<<.>>+++++.<+++.---.<.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.>>.<.>--.----.<----.<<.>-----.>>+.-.<.>--.<-----------------------------------------------------------------.<-.+++++++++++++.>>----------.<.>++++.<<------.<--.>>.+++++++++++++++++++++
15:52:54 <fizzie> Output length limits strike again.
15:53:11 <fizzie> The program is probably complete, it's just that the bf interpreter has an overly short maximum length limit.
15:53:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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15:59:39 <fungot> passby: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoteric ...
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16:09:59 <FreeFull> fizzie: That's one reason to have rle bf
16:10:02 <ais523> DDOS still going on? I couldn't connect earlier
16:10:09 <ais523> and was close to pinging out on this attempt
16:11:30 <boily> ais523: weird. I thought it calmed down yesterday fternoon, and SSL is back on track today.
16:13:09 <quintopia> why don't people think about anyone else?
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16:16:36 <boily> quintopia: unknown. I start next week. if it is yours, also unknown.
16:17:01 <quintopia> boily: i don't have a new job. you never got me one.
16:17:37 <quintopia> boily: so what are you doing this week?
16:18:57 <boily> quintopia: documenting what I was working on, tutorialing the teammates, (subtly) lazying around on IRC and wikipédia...
16:19:17 <quintopia> boily: sounds like a good week to invent a new esolang
16:19:35 <quintopia> boily: you're already better at it than. you're on cpressey's list!
16:19:57 <FireFly> This channel has plenty of lists, doesn't it?
16:20:02 <ais523> is cpressey's list a list of people who asked about cpressey's list?
16:20:05 <ais523> if so, I'm on it now, I guess
16:20:17 <boily> what is cpressey's list?
16:20:42 <ais523> boily: you were apparently on it already, no point in asking
16:21:30 <boily> ais523: oh well. time to retroactively bask in the Glory of being in Cpressey's List.
16:21:36 <quintopia> ais523: of course you are on it. you are also better at esolang than me
16:23:25 <quintopia> does anyone know what year Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic came out?
16:24:17 <ais523> quintopia: I'm not convinced I'm better at BF Joust than you, though
16:24:45 <boily> I horribly suck at the Joust.
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16:25:10 <quintopia> ais523: i'll concede we are roughly equal there, but that only says we have too much timme on our hands roughly once a year
16:25:28 <ais523> yeah, I don't have too much time on my hands right now
16:25:45 <ais523> but I'm upset at my latest strategy not being able to top the hill
16:25:53 <ais523> even when it beats every other program, it still doesn't top the hill
16:25:58 <ais523> which is really frustrating
16:26:06 <ais523> I have to, like, make it beat every other program by more, or something
16:26:21 <quintopia> hmm the original document for HBCHT says it was created 2011. does anyone remember seeing it anywhere before 2011?
16:26:50 <Slereah_> Having a Baby Cat Hurl on the Table?
16:27:19 <ais523> Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic seems likely from context
16:29:08 <quintopia> this is cpressey's list: http://catseye.tc/node/Esolang
16:29:22 <quintopia> there are a number on here i never looked at before
16:29:29 <ais523> alternatively, it's a BCT variant which uses '0', '1', and 'H'; the 'H'es don't do anything but you have to sprinkle them into the program anyway, much like PLEASE in INTERCAL
16:30:39 <ais523> hmm, it seems I'm quite good at guessing which of my esolangs would appeal to cpressey
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16:33:52 <boily> re Aubergine: “nothing spectacular, but somewhat cute.” heh :D
16:33:58 -!- johnnie has joined.
16:34:33 <johnnie> hey, who's online right now?
16:34:39 <password2> Im surprised at how big this channel is
16:35:23 <johnnie> I get the feeling that we're probably the only two active users right now.
16:35:48 <ais523> it's been pretty active today
16:35:58 <quintopia> definitely never seen these two before
16:36:01 <ais523> also, I've never seen either of you here today
16:36:08 <ais523> that means rainbow welcome time?
16:36:13 <ais523> `relcome password2 johnnie
16:36:15 <boily> nope. and I couldn't `relcome them properly. *cough* Gregor` *cough*
16:36:21 <ais523> oh, the rainbow welcome bot is down
16:36:22 <boily> ais523: the gregorbots are dead.
16:36:44 <boily> password2: it's a Rainbow wELCOME.
16:36:53 <johnnie> Oh don't worry about it. I'm new to the whole process anyway. I have only one entry on the Esoteric wiki.
16:37:04 <ais523> !c printf("I'm a gregorbot and I'm not dead!\n");
16:37:07 <boily> johnnie: neat! that's a good start.
16:37:08 <EgoBot> I'm a gregorbot and I'm not dead!
16:37:24 <quintopia> boily: dammit now i'm singing the lumberjack song :(
16:37:45 <boily> quintopia: uhm. I would like to say that it's not my fault, but then...
16:37:58 <johnnie> SPAM/1...I'm going to flesh it out some more tonight. I have a lot of good ideas about it. But I need to iron those out.
16:38:12 <ais523> oh, good, Phantom_Hoover isn't here, so you're safe even if it's a BF derivative
16:38:28 <ais523> but SPAM/1 isn't a BF derivative so that works even better
16:38:32 <boily> johnnie: have you looked at the PDF in the /topic?
16:39:38 <johnnie> I'm trying to work in SPAM/1 as part Monty Python joke. SPAM/2 was supposed to have been "SPAM/EGGS/SAUSAGE/SPAM" and SPAM/3 as "I/DONT/LIKE/SPAM"
16:39:38 <ais523> also, any esolang that requires snailmail to implement is pretty creative
16:39:43 <ais523> if unlikely to actually be implemented
16:39:55 <ais523> I think SPAM/1 is probably better just as it is
16:40:46 <ais523> johnnie: what order does XMTR retrive the stored data in?
16:40:46 <johnnie> I like the idea of BF. I took SPAM/1 is a different direction by making the input minimal instead of making the language minimal.
16:41:54 <ais523> the thing about BF is that BF itself is pretty good, but people have a tendency to make uncreative minor variations on it
16:41:58 <ais523> which gets really annoying after a while
16:42:26 <Slereah_> It's pretty good to prove Turing completeness
16:42:39 <johnnie> I used Dartmouth-BASIC as a model for the bulk of the commands. XMTR is nothing more than a Basic DATA statement.
16:43:14 <quintopia> it's so good that people start to have strange ideas like "this isn't turing-complete because it's not readily obvious how to directly reduce BF to it"
16:43:28 <Slereah_> Also if someone asks you to make a compiler at gunpoint?
16:43:44 <ais523> quintopia: boring, like half my languages there's no obvious way to reduce BF to them directly
16:43:53 <quintopia> i get asked to make a compiler at gunpoint every Tuesday
16:43:56 <ais523> Slereah_: can't I make a Quiler self-compiler?
16:44:05 <boily> Slereah_: that's not a situation I think I'd find myself in in the foreseeable future...
16:44:25 <boily> (contrary to quintopia, who lives the American Dream every week.)
16:44:26 <ais523> I think any sequence of bytes fulfils that restriction
16:45:01 <boily> Slereah_: being forced to write a compiler while a moose is charging towards you, that is more likely for me.
16:45:06 <ais523> (Quiler is defined as folows: given any input, a Quiler compiler ignores it and outputs a Quiler compiler)
16:45:25 <ais523> (it is not a massively useful language)
16:46:05 <boily> Slereah_: pretty much so. Québécois, even.
16:46:19 <ais523> are mooses inherently Canadian, or just associated with Canada
16:46:42 <ais523> boily: are the squirrels black in your area of Quebec too? or just Ottawa?
16:46:44 <johnnie> I'm mulling over a BASIC version of the "LIST" command for SPAM/1. How does this sound...in SPAM/1, LIST "program name" @ "address" will send a printed copy of the list program to the specified address.
16:46:54 <ais523> johnnie: that seems useful
16:47:26 <johnnie> I think mine is going towards a Chindogu. :)
16:47:32 <ais523> actually I'm trying to work out if SPAM/1 has the ability to store infinite data
16:47:35 <ais523> also I had an esolang idea
16:47:42 <quintopia> ais523: there are also meese in maine and alaska and other such northerly places
16:48:01 <quintopia> ais523: i always have esolang ideas
16:48:06 <ais523> here it is: the only unlimited-size data store available, you can add a datum to it (of fixed maximum size), and remove a random datum from it
16:48:17 <quintopia> i've got at least 3 just sitting around on paper
16:48:23 <ais523> can this be TC, I wonder?
16:48:42 <quintopia> ais523: depends on the rest of the language
16:48:46 <johnnie> I gotta get back to work. But it's good to know this place is useful for peer reviewing these ideas.
16:48:48 <ais523> quintopia: regardless of the rest of the language
16:49:14 <ais523> remember, this is the /only/ unlimited store, you're pasting it onto an FSM
16:49:29 <quintopia> ais523: we can't disregard the rest of the language. if the rest of the language provides a means to recognize which datum was removed...
16:49:42 <ais523> quintopia: the store is unordered
16:49:54 <boily> ais523: our squirrels are gray. sometimes you get a glimpse of an albino one.
16:49:54 <ais523> or as in, we have the rest of the language, and we have the store
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16:50:18 <ais523> and the only way they can communicate is via "add this element", "retrieve a random element"
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16:51:13 <quintopia> ais523: okay but still. consider an instruction like "test for divisibility by x and branch"
16:51:31 <ais523> quintopia: the data themselves are finite size
16:51:39 <quintopia> ais523: then you can store bits as primes
16:51:40 <ais523> so that's equivalent to a really really large switch-case
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16:56:19 <password2> what makes a programming language esoteric
16:57:00 <ais523> I'm not sure there's any hard answer
16:57:14 <quintopia> ais523: yeah i think the unordered thing mostly breaks TC. if only aggregate data are available, you end up with no more than a single perceptron at best.
16:57:14 <ais523> and there's lots of gray area
16:58:11 <ais523> I have a working answer of "there wouldn't be any point in trying to create a useful standard library", but that excludes some languages like Funge-98
16:58:15 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
16:58:29 <ais523> if you haven't gone there yet, do so, the channel makes no sense if you haven't seen the website it's associated with
16:59:04 <password2> i have been on ther i think , but it was a few moons ago
16:59:37 <password2> tbh i just randomly joined this channel after listing channels on freenode
17:03:08 <b_jonas> what? this channel totally makes sense without that wiki, as long as you know esoteric programming languages from other sources
17:03:25 <b_jonas> or at least it makes as much sense as it makes with the wiki
17:03:36 <quintopia> ais523: i think your definition holds anyone. just because people make libraries for esolangs doesn't mean that there was any point in doing so.
17:03:41 <b_jonas> why don't we have the url of the wiki in the channel topic though?
17:04:21 <Bike> maybe because we relcome everyone anyway
17:05:08 <quintopia> fungot can't even finish a sentence
17:05:08 <fungot> quintopia: did either book mention schroedinger's cat? :() but i'll put it online :p
17:07:33 <b_jonas> ah, and apparently the url to the wiki is in the chanserv welcome message
17:09:37 <quintopia> ais523: care to take any bets on how many kb in a SELECT. 99 bottles program. assume it singularizes correctly and prints the optional verse.
17:11:28 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/SELECT.
17:11:34 <ais523> not aware of the language
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17:13:48 <ais523> quintopia: it doesn't seem that different from BF in terms of storage and flow control, so the main difficulty is just the storage for the images
17:14:10 <ais523> I'm guessing of the order of tens of KB because of that
17:14:34 <b_jonas> how do these EXP. and LOG. and SELECT. commands work?
17:16:17 <quintopia> ais523: haha. no and very unlikely.
17:17:06 <password2> does it not jump by the distance of the result?
17:17:11 <quintopia> ais523: more reasonable would be in the hundreds of kb with comments and indentation stripped.
17:17:22 <ais523> quintopia: I think that by picking an appropriate base, you can construct a value that has real>imag change after 256 exps, which are reversible by logs
17:17:22 <quintopia> ais523: but i'll let you know once i've written it.
17:17:33 <ais523> it depends on what font you use, ofc
17:17:49 <b_jonas> how do you copy numbers exactly in this SELECT. language?
17:17:57 <ais523> b_jonas: same way as in BF
17:18:06 <ais523> really, the numbers are a red herring
17:18:16 <ais523> you don't want to work with the numbers specifically
17:18:20 <ais523> but with their mathematical properties
17:18:25 <password2> oh yeah complex number , not used to seeing them in a programming language
17:18:30 <ais523> a typical program's going to store integers, BF-style, but not store them /as/ integers
17:18:37 <quintopia> b_jonas: RIGHT. EXP. LEFT. SELECT. RIGHT. LOG. RIGHT. SELECT. LEFT. will copy a number one cell to the right.
17:18:44 <ais523> but rather by extracting them from a set of complex numbers that are easily inter-converted
17:19:03 <ais523> or at least, it seems that quintopia's method of esolang programming is entirely different from mine :-)
17:19:57 <b_jonas> quintopia: that seems strange
17:20:41 <ais523> but my first rule of esolang programming is: even if the esolang has numbers, it's often a bad idea to use them, you can go synthesize your own arithmetic instead if it's easier
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17:21:30 <b_jonas> ais523: is that something you learnt from intercal?
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17:21:45 <ais523> b_jonas: no, actually using numbers as numbers in INTERCAL isn't so bad
17:22:22 <ais523> although modern versions are actually TC with no variables involved at all, I think
17:22:41 <quintopia> ais523: yeah, you could definitely just store your numbers as nth exponentiations of i^(1/4)^((1/2)^(1/256)) i suppose, but you'll still have to convert them to output them.
17:22:56 <ais523> quintopia: I/O is normally comparatively minor although I guess not in 99bob
17:23:15 <b_jonas> ais523: um, no variables is a bit going too far
17:23:35 <b_jonas> because intercal has very convenient operations variable
17:23:45 <ais523> b_jonas: sure, but they're also unreadable
17:23:48 <b_jonas> I mean, it has array indexing and indexed assignment
17:23:59 <ais523> if you eschew variables entirely, it mostly just looks like COBOL, which isn't so bad
17:24:30 <ais523> you forgot to escape the second /
17:24:36 <ais523> making that substitution pretty hard to read
17:24:47 <quintopia> well i was lagged out at the time and i knew you'd understand
17:25:04 <ais523> it took me like 10 seconds to figure it
17:25:40 <b_jonas> ah, so in SELECT., the SELECT. statement doesn't write to the cell under the pointer. it writes to where the pointer was when you last did LOG. or EXP.
17:27:12 <b_jonas> quintopia: even then that sequence you gave doesn't make sense to me
17:27:23 <b_jonas> "RIGHT. EXP. LEFT. SELECT. RIGHT. LOG. RIGHT. SELECT. LEFT. will copy a number one cell to the right."
17:27:55 <quintopia> b_jonas: you have to assume both cells to the right contain the same constant k.
17:28:23 <b_jonas> oh. but how do you get such a state if the tape starts from random numbers?
17:28:36 <password2> correct me if I'm not mistaken , to write a brainfuck simulator would not be very difficult?
17:28:55 <atriq> password2: it isn't at all.
17:29:17 <quintopia> b_jonas: the tape starts like ...k k k k k k k k k...
17:30:08 <quintopia> k is ostensibly randomly selected, but they are all equal, so it doesn't matter
17:30:17 <fizzie> FreeFull: Funnily enough, the under-the-hood representation is RLE-ish.
17:30:19 <fungot> ,[.,]+14[>+8>+4>+7>+6<4-]>2+2.-26.>2+3.+14.+7.<+.>+3.-2.<+2.<.<+4.>3+2.<2.>2+5.<+3.-3.<.+73.+5.>2.<.>-2.-4.<-4.<2.>-5.>2+.-.<.>-2.<-65.<-.+13.>2-10.<.>+4.<2-6.<-2.>2.+69.<2+.>.+5.>.<-2.>+4.>-3.-67.<2-2.<-.-3.-8.>+2.<-6.>-5..>.<+.<+6.>3.<2-2.>-8.<+2.<.>+7.>.<2.-2.>3.<3-.>2+4.<-2.>+4.-2.<-5.>2.<-6.<.>+3.>.<3.+.>+2.<+7.>-.+10.<+.>2+.<2+.>-5.>2+.-.<-31.<2+.>-2.>2.<2-5.+2.+3.>+31.>.<+4.<-4.-8.>+6.+3.<2-2.>-5.>+2.<2-4.+6.-.>3+12.-12.
17:30:22 <password2> If i'm bored enough , it would make an interesting easter egg
17:32:05 <b_jonas> did you figure out anything about that brainfuck-dowhile language btw?
17:32:55 <quintopia> i should eat i've been laying here for two hours being hungry
17:33:42 <password2> heh , i'm waiting for mince to defrost so i can start making stirfry
17:33:45 <ais523> b_jonas: I created a language like that
17:33:48 <ais523> not sure if it's on the wiki
17:34:07 <ais523> password2: huh, I didn't think of combining those two foods, but it's kind-of obvious in retrospect
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17:34:36 <password2> students tends to summon weird combinations
17:34:38 -!- mroman has joined.
17:35:02 <password2> they'll eat bread dipped in anything less runny than bread
17:35:45 <b_jonas> ais523: we talked about it yesterday. it's a bf variant where a bracket loop runs at least once, so it's like a do-while instead of a while loop. +- commands are modulo 256.
17:36:03 <b_jonas> ais523: int-e asked yesterday whether it's turing complete, to which I handwaved a proof that it is.
17:36:32 <b_jonas> int-e might have a code generator by today or something.
17:36:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I designed that ages ago
17:36:49 <ais523> when I was learning Python live on #esoteric
17:36:54 <ais523> by entering it into codebots
17:37:03 <ais523> fun fact: I originally learned to write Python with no newlines
17:37:09 <quintopia> ais523: i'd like to see your version of programming SELECT. honestly, seeing as how mine is so wasteful of tape. or would you just build a compiler from boolfuck or something?
17:37:36 <ais523> which is basically unreadable because you do exec "first line of loop:\n inside of loop", etc.
17:37:52 <ais523> and yeah, I'd just compile from either boolfuck, or 8-bit non-wrapping BF
17:38:00 <quintopia> ais523: so none of the functional programming/object-oriented aspects?
17:38:12 <ais523> quintopia: I learned those later, not live in #esoteric
17:38:14 <password2> i assume in BF the instructions and memory is not the same space?
17:38:19 <ais523> although it doesn't really have any functional programming aspects
17:38:23 <ais523> apart from functions being barely first-class
17:38:37 <ais523> like, I think they were upgraded from economy class rather than buying the more expensive ticket
17:38:46 <FreeFull> fizzie: bf has a lot of repeated symbols, so rle is perfect
17:38:46 <b_jonas> basically I argued that you can translate (bf without the io) to bf-dowhile, for which you have to simulate each cell with a sequence of multiple cells. the translation is a bit wasteful but nothing unexpected for bf.
17:38:54 <ais523> this is usually (but not always) the case in esolangs
17:38:54 <quintopia> ais523: well yeah, but you can treat it functionally by having functions that take and return functions
17:39:03 <FreeFull> And it's faster to add 30 at once than to add 1 30 times
17:39:12 <b_jonas> however, bf-dowhile can't quite have all values of a bf program because there's some io you can't do.
17:39:13 <ais523> you can see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying for esolangs where the code can be used as data, in one way or another
17:39:26 <ais523> b_jonas: we decided it was TC last time this came up, too
17:39:29 <ais523> but I can't remember why
17:39:45 <ais523> and yeah, it's obviously impossible to write a dofuck program which sometimes produces output and sometimes doesn't
17:39:57 <ais523> so you can't write cat, for instance, if you want it to work correctly on null input
17:39:58 <b_jonas> it's called dofuck? we didn't know it had a name
17:40:11 <ais523> that's what I called it, back then
17:40:23 <ais523> but it's such an obvious idea it's probably been invented more than twice
17:40:36 <ais523> DoFuck's easier to impl than BF, btw
17:40:49 <ais523> because you only have to be able to move the IP backwards, not forwards
17:41:00 <ais523> err, by more than one instruction at a time
17:41:23 <ais523> a language where the IP /only/ moves backwards is going to be sub-TC unless it's self-modifying or has first class functions or uses some other loophole I didn't think of
17:42:05 <ais523> (the first version looks something like SMITH, the second version arguably describes Underload)
17:42:17 <b_jonas> if I have to choose, I prefer bf
17:42:30 <ais523> you don't have to choose, normally
17:42:40 <FreeFull> How about a language where values are stored in the IP?
17:42:41 <quintopia> password2: if you like languages with the instructions and data mixed , ire recommend Aubergunine (hi oboily)
17:43:10 <ais523> FreeFull: that's almost equivalent to just storing them in a register
17:43:14 <ais523> possibly completely equivalent
17:43:20 <ais523> quintopia: your backspaces echoed literally
17:43:23 <ais523> which is quite impressive
17:43:33 <FreeFull> ais523: Except it jumps where you are in code
17:43:47 <ais523> FreeFull: you mean storing them in the instruction?
17:43:57 <ais523> my first, still unpublished, esolang worked like that
17:44:05 <FreeFull> ais523: No, the instruction pointer itself
17:44:15 <password2> and my client doesn't even understand the characters of what you said
17:44:21 <ais523> FreeFull: you mean the memory address that holds the location of the instruction pointer?
17:44:22 <b_jonas> doesn't arm-32 sort of work like that?
17:44:22 <FreeFull> Although I guess that wouldn't be useful unless you had instruction memory aliasing
17:44:44 <quintopia> i've already written a cheat-quine in Aubergine. I should write a self-deleting program. That sounds ... i don't even know it's possible. it probably isn't
17:44:49 <b_jonas> but really, I don't understand what FreeFull wants to say
17:44:59 <FreeFull> ais523: I mean, you write a value to the instruction pointer, so now it points at a different position in the instructions
17:45:09 <FreeFull> So basically storing data in a jump
17:45:10 <ais523> FreeFull: that's just a computed jump
17:45:32 <b_jonas> FreeFull: oh, so you just mean memory-mapping the instruction pointer?
17:45:33 <ais523> but certainly, the instruction pointer /stack/ is a very common way to store data in esolangs
17:45:40 <FreeFull> With aliasing for the instruction memory, you could use it to pass a value to the code
17:45:53 <ais523> one nice rule of thumb is "two stacks = TC", which obviously has loads of exceptions but is still reasonably reliable in practice
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17:46:50 <ais523> if you're having trouble proving a language TC, using the call stack as one is often a wise idea
17:46:51 <quintopia> i suppose it miiiiiiiiiiight be possible to write a Aubergine program that overwrites itself with a's
17:46:52 <ais523> FreeFull: even one queue is often (but not always) enough
17:46:56 <b_jonas> FreeFull: one queue is enough
17:47:03 <ais523> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight, for instance
17:47:27 <ais523> but it's much easier to design a one-queue language that isn't TC than a two-stack language that isn't TC, by accident
17:48:14 <ais523> (obviously both are trivial if you're trying, e.g. you could have two stacks but no commands that manipulate them)
17:49:13 <b_jonas> one queue reminds me to those very old home-built computers using a disk, before ram existed
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17:49:21 <quintopia> now i want to design a language that has two stacks and a queue and is TC, but becomes sub-TC if you remove any one of the three
17:49:49 <ais523> b_jonas: now you reminded me of delay line memory
17:50:02 <ais523> have you heard of that? it was used before magnetic core memory was invented, as in a really /really/ long time ago
17:50:25 <b_jonas> int-e: that bf-dowhile language we were talking about, ais523 calls it "DoFuck", says he also thinks it's turing-complete, and says "it's such an obvious idea it's probably been invented more than twice"
17:50:28 <ais523> basically data is stored using vibrations in a trough full of mercury, you put the data in at one end, and it comes out the other end a few seconds later
17:52:27 <boily> back from lunch, and I didn't eat aubergines. hi o quintopia!
17:52:34 <olsner> did you also know that PAL decoders involve delay lines in quartz crystals?
17:52:50 <password2> i have seen one of those delay memorys on hackaday
17:52:56 <b_jonas> olsner: I didn't know that
17:53:10 <password2> sound and piezo works as makeshift version
17:53:18 <olsner> (electric signals go in, vibrate the quartz, the vibrations zig zag across the crystal for exactly 60µs (or whatever the delay is), reach the other end and become electricity again)
17:53:57 <olsner> and then the outgoing signal (the last scanline) is compared to the current scanline to figure out the colors
17:55:58 <b_jonas> I'm not an EE or a hardware guy, I don't really understand how classical television works in general.
17:56:24 <ais523> I am an EE, so I have more of an idea
17:56:32 <b_jonas> I treat it as a black box, so to speak
17:56:56 <boily> ais523: hi there, fellow engineer :D
17:57:20 <b_jonas> and I don't use analog video signals these days at all if I can avoid them
17:59:54 <password2> you see more of em than CE on the tubes
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18:04:21 <Slereah_> i tried changing my registers to optimize some stuff
18:04:32 <Slereah_> But then "Gotta use ax for that!"
18:04:43 <Slereah_> Your thirst for power knows no end
18:05:40 <password2> that sounds dangerous "i tried changing my registers to optimize some stuff"
18:06:10 <Slereah_> Well i'm doing some basic graphics with x86
18:06:24 <Slereah_> And i'm like "man, I'm tired of having to switch registers around"
18:06:34 <Slereah_> So I tried to do another order with less saving involved
18:07:03 <password2> lol i read that as resistors , instead of registers
18:07:44 <boily> password2: just about the same thing. make a mistake and *FOOM* there goes the magic smoke.
18:08:05 <Slereah_> Though I did learn about the bswap trick
18:08:17 <Slereah_> Less shitty than popping and stacking
18:08:56 <Slereah_> bswap is to swap the 16 bits in a 32 bits registers
18:09:10 <olsner> I thought bswap reversed all the bytes in a register
18:09:15 <boily> Slereah_: oh. shiny!
18:09:31 <Slereah_> Like [abcd....][xyz...] -> [xyz...][abcd...]
18:09:55 <fizzie> x86 bswap does reverse the order of all 4 or 8 bytes.
18:10:04 <fizzie> It doesn't swap the two 16-bit halves.
18:10:29 <olsner> a rotate by 16 bits should work though
18:10:36 <password2> meh , am in a sound war with a firstyear
18:10:57 <Slereah_> "Reverses the byte order of a 32-bit (destination) register: bits 0 through 7 are swapped with bits 24 through 31, and bits 8 through 15 are swapped with bits 16 through 23. "
18:11:44 <Slereah_> http://www.c-jump.com/CIS77/asm_images/bswap_eax.png
18:12:31 <elliott__> that gives you abcd -> dcba, you just need abcd -> badc to turn that into abcd -> cdab
18:12:32 <FireFly> Is that a dedicated instruction? bswap, I mean
18:12:46 <elliott__> I don't know whether there's an instruction for that though
18:12:56 <fizzie> FireFly: It is, though only since the 486.
18:13:49 <Slereah_> You get more mileage out of 32 bit registers that way
18:15:16 <fizzie> If all you want is to use the high bits of eax as "shadow space" for ax, you can keep using bswap too.
18:15:32 <fizzie> Since the byte order reversal doesn't matter.
18:17:56 <Slereah_> Plus unlike pops, you can disregard the order
18:20:24 <fizzie> Probably saves two bytes, too, if the 486-dependency isn't a problem. ("0F C8+rd BSWAP" vs. "C1 /0 ib ROL r/m32, imm8" with an operand-size override prefix byte in 16-bit mode.)
18:21:10 <fizzie> Or, well. I can't really deduce whether BSWAP also needs an operand-size override.
18:22:10 <fizzie> "When the BSWAP instruction references a 16-bit register, the result is undefined", it says. Maybe that means it does. Saves a byte, anyway.
18:24:31 <olsner> maybe it means intel and amd do it differently
18:28:06 <fizzie> I was sort of assuming that since BSWAP only exists for 32 bits, it'd have an implicit default operand size of 32, but if they've bothered to put in that statement (and don't say so explicitly), I guess it probably doesn't.
18:31:33 <Slereah_> Hm, my gay squares stopped changing color
18:31:42 <Slereah_> I guess I changed the value of ah by mistake
18:33:07 <boily> fungot: do you change ah, eh?
18:33:08 <fungot> boily: what does gnu stand for? yeah reading, wiki, so it doesn't need to
18:33:34 <FireFly> fungot: I don't think that's on the Wiki™
18:33:56 <Slereah_> Oh wait, stosb inputs al, not ah
18:34:14 <fizzie> fungot: GNU's Noodly Unix.
18:34:15 <fungot> fizzie: oh ok, what file format should be scheme :) somebody'd probably implement it
18:35:00 <FireFly> I'm fairly sure somebody's already implemented scheme
18:36:29 <olsner> fungot: did you forget? they already did implement scheme
18:36:29 <fungot> olsner: darn this tab completion. i defined the scheme callback with a c world.
18:38:10 <Slereah_> But the screen clearing still fucks up
18:39:32 <boily> fungot: you sound like me, blasphemating against the Evil Tab Completion.
18:39:32 <fungot> boily: ( define ( safe-apply func. args) ( for-each display args) ( car ' ' a" to *a*
18:39:55 <olsner> ehm, wtf, my internet bank is running some kind of analytics script ... from a third-party web server with an expired certificate
18:42:03 <Slereah_> password2 : The program displays squares, and then increment the color
18:42:11 <Slereah_> Making them going through rainbow cycles
18:42:47 <Slereah_> As gay as a three dollar bill, if bills were square
18:43:55 <Slereah_> Does someone have any idea why the screen clearing hides the upper part of the screen
18:44:09 <Slereah_> Every cycle, I delete the screen by blackening it
18:44:18 <Slereah_> And redoing the squares in the next cycle
18:44:34 <Slereah_> But for some reason, the first 15 or so rows are totally black no matter what
18:44:35 <password2> oooh , i cant remember when last i used assembly
18:45:18 <ais523> third-party scripts you can't verify are a major malware source
18:46:12 <password2> i found a easyway to make any linux fanboy install malware
18:47:06 <Slereah_> i tried moving the screen clearing to various places
18:47:22 <Slereah_> Before the drawing, after the drawing, after checking for the next screen display
18:48:02 <olsner> you probably need to vsync
18:49:29 <olsner> hmm, are you sure dx has the expected value when you get there? I don't know what the calling convention of those interrupts are, but they might clobber it
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18:51:31 <boily> hm. the guys over at /r/vxjunkies don't have much information pertaining to vsync problems.
18:51:37 <boily> Taneb: are you back from your lecture?
18:53:06 <Slereah_> I guess a test would be to remove the vsyncs and see what changes
18:54:22 <Slereah_> Removing the vsync actually works slightly better!
18:54:34 <Slereah_> I can see all squares, but they all kinda flicker
18:55:20 <olsner> or maybe the emulator isn't emulating vsync at all
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18:59:40 <Slereah_> .com files don't play on my computer unfortunately
19:00:07 <Slereah_> But I played many vidyah gehms on dosbox and it seems to have no problem with graphics
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19:00:45 <Slereah_> What's a good place to ask assembly questions?
19:03:33 <olsner> the 1980's might also be ok
19:06:45 <olsner> there is #assembly (iirc) on freenode, and when it's not plagued by "I almost know a bit of C, how do I make an OS?" #osdev would have people that know assembly
19:06:54 <olsner> or you just ask fizzie
19:07:21 <boily> olsner: is there a #fizzie chännel?
19:07:30 <olsner> boily: I'm guessing not
19:07:58 <olsner> boily: also, pretty sure it's spelled channel
19:10:34 <int-e> I'm slightly disappointed, is there really no lower case version of Ÿ?
19:10:49 <ais523> olsner: boily has been umlauting random letters for a while
19:11:07 <ais523> and isn't ÿ the last character in Latin-1?
19:11:39 <int-e> ais523: oh. indeed.
19:11:56 <ais523> that gives it some sort of distinction
19:12:45 * boily unicodely mapoles Gregor`
19:13:40 <ais523> huh, it's Firefox that causes my compose key to stop working
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19:14:07 <ais523> huh, EgoBot interpreted my UTF-8 as Latin-1
19:14:19 <ais523> but you can tell it's 255 anyway if you have UTF-8 encoding memorised
19:14:25 <ais523> I don't, but I know about the C2 and C3 ranges
19:15:54 <olsner> oh, so that became a multicharacter character literal
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19:20:02 <ais523> yeah, and those are impl-defined
19:20:11 <ais523> but I believe gcc's handing is to concatenate the bytes
19:20:43 <ais523> which is usually the right handling anyway
19:21:06 <ais523> !c printf("%x", *u8"ÿ");
19:21:21 <ais523> even if I got the syntax right, that's C11
19:21:31 <ais523> !c printf("%ld", __STDC_VERSION__);
19:21:39 <ais523> and that compiler's C99
19:21:43 <olsner> I would sort of be happier with "nope, that's not a character", but I think there's some legacy that needs them
19:22:45 <olsner> what does *u8"ÿ" mean?
19:23:05 <ais523> I think u8"string" means "this string is UTF-8", in some sense
19:23:17 <ais523> and the * is just a pointer dereference as normal
19:23:35 <olsner> which on a utf8 string just gives the first byte?
19:24:31 <ais523> and I remembered right, it is u8"string" for a UTF-8 literal
19:24:35 <ais523> now I'm looking up what those do
19:25:13 <evalj> b_jonas: 255 32 48 65 91 233
19:25:26 <ais523> aha, if you do u8"string", then the contents of the string are interpreted as in the source multibyte character set, and converted to UTF-8
19:25:37 <ais523> whereas normally they'd be converted to the execution narrow or wide character set
19:25:49 <olsner> aah, that seems actually useful
19:25:49 <b_jonas> ais523: ^ that can show the unicode values
19:26:03 <ais523> does J have an explicit map command, or is map too low-level?
19:26:21 <ais523> wait, is that second letter a ü or a ű?
19:26:24 <ais523> they look pretty similar in this font
19:26:37 <b_jonas> yes, ű (with double acute)
19:26:48 <ais523> huh, is double acute what it's called?
19:26:55 <ais523> I always thought of it as an acute umlaut
19:27:05 <kmc> `unidecode ő
19:27:06 <ais523> it's an umlaut made of acutes
19:27:11 <kmc> HackEgo...
19:27:17 <ais523> but I guess you don't write ȯ for the un-umlauted, un-acute version
19:27:21 <int-e> a cute accent, hmm.
19:27:23 <kmc> fungot: what did you do with HackEgo
19:27:23 <fungot> kmc: riastradh believes beginners have to know
19:27:47 <olsner> fungot: I want to know
19:27:47 <fungot> olsner: are you looking for an angry fix!
19:27:53 <kmc> was Riastradh in here at some point?
19:27:55 <kmc> oh, #scheme
19:28:50 <kmc> @remember Riastradh Actually, there are a lot of 'factorization challenges' where you can win a lot more than 200,000 USD if you manage to factor a 2048-bit RSA modulus, but you might have to watch out for the cops if you enter and win these challenges.
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19:30:38 <fungot> shachaf: or is there a way to make scheme code readable to people who are using scheme in your head
19:30:42 <kmc> fungot: i'm looking for an angry fix!
19:30:42 <fungot> kmc: i would, but no cryptanalysis stuff. he does not know about them
19:30:54 <kmc> scheme? in *my* head? it's more likely than you think
19:31:08 <kmc> fungot: there is a crack in everything, that's how the scheme gets in
19:31:08 <fungot> kmc: but i mean for " touching"
19:31:15 <olsner> fungot: you generally don't let other people use scheme in your head ... at least not in public
19:31:16 <fungot> olsner: the pointer is the instruction layer featuring all the instructions like ". though britain is more humid than finland i guess. it's the sort of thing
19:31:17 <kmc> fungot: good touch or bad touch
19:31:17 <fungot> kmc: is it still not yet even a complete superset of the lambda symbol... who cares that an os should never need to touch asm to get anything across.
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19:32:27 <olsner> I wonder if my laundry is done so I can go to bed
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19:33:08 <kmc> EgoBot: are you HackEgo?
19:33:19 <kmc> `relcome kmc
19:34:10 <quintopia> boily: i just opened a bag of Takis, and the act of pulling the bug open launched a tiny crumb of peppery deliciousness directly into my right eye.
19:35:00 <fungot> shachaf: how's life? :o
19:35:10 <fungot> shachaf: i think i've almost maybe got it.
19:35:30 <fungot> shachaf: but they too were small, something like hash-tables consisting of variable-name/ value? i'm not sure it will!
19:36:50 <boily> quintopia: usually only grapefruits being peeled can manage to snipe one's eyes. a piece of Takis must be painful too!
19:37:39 * ais523 confuses boily with fungot
19:37:40 <fungot> ais523: have a look when i get around 30 spam per day on the bike
19:38:01 <kmc> i too confuse fungot
19:38:01 <fungot> kmc: last year, their servers were cracked.
19:38:05 <kmc> fungot: o no
19:38:05 <fungot> kmc: like in the case of scheme48, every structure has its own scripting language and compiler)?? has type fnord, it messes up vim's highlight mode
19:38:39 <boily> I am a Master Confungotter!
19:38:40 <fungot> boily: take the difference of whether or not it deserves to be read. this wouldn't be so surprised. few people ever use the ( cl-style), you have to browse deitti.net before i find myself in an annoying and stupidly offensive way too, so...
19:39:56 <shachaf> ais523 uses fungot to confuse boily
19:39:56 <fungot> shachaf: we have one of each. :) it's so absurd it's hilarious. my favorite topping is pepperoni. interesting...
19:40:09 <fungot> kmc: way to go if i were obfuscating it i wouldn't have, but it
19:40:21 <fungot> shachaf: let me see if i have a function that returns the source of a builtin function, not sure if i ever think something geeky is funny, because so many people
19:41:18 <fungot> shachaf: and i don't know if that is what i was thinking it had something to do
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20:01:20 <fungot> FireFly: i understand the problem now? can i use
20:03:15 * boily selfconfuses himself
20:05:11 * boily impersonates a spacial vortex and randomly blinks around
20:06:26 <boily> I won't be healed as easily as you think you are healing, Mr. FireFly! muah ah ah ah ah!
20:06:34 <boily> (said in a bad supervillain voice)
20:06:59 <boily> oh, btw, I surmised you're of the “Mr.” kind.
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20:24:30 <Slereah_> I believe I have finally mastered Assembly https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/Graphic8.COM
20:25:02 <boily> Slereah_: if I happen to want to potentially execute that on my machine, what should I do?
20:25:52 <fizzie> dosbox, mount, type the name?
20:26:30 <boily> fizzie: that's what I did, and I now understand the “gay squares”.
20:26:35 <Slereah_> Either you can just open it directly (esc to quit) or use dosbox
20:26:55 <kmc> you can just ron "dosbox graphic8.com" can't you
20:27:05 <kmc> fungot: fongut
20:27:05 <fungot> kmc: my answer: probably :p probably good for prototype. chicken will probably be using is ( fnord
20:27:21 <fizzie> kmc: Huh, that's convenient.
20:27:21 <FireFly> see, you can probably run that
20:28:03 <boily> I probably ran that.
20:28:25 <shachaf> if i run an arbitrary .com file with dosbox can it do things to my computer outside the dosbox
20:29:04 <kmc> shachaf: i spent a little while looking for such exploits, but didn't find any
20:29:17 <fizzie> I don't think dosbox is really focusing on sandbox security, however.
20:29:22 <kmc> it is easy to segfault dosbox with an invalid x86 instruction but it's just a NULL dereference
20:29:44 <fizzie> kmc: How about a TSR that manages to fake in some commands to the dosbox shell, which has mount &c.?
20:29:55 <shachaf> you can run mount /some/directory somedrive: in dosbox, can't you
20:30:00 <shachaf> can a .com program not do that
20:30:08 <kmc> that could work; I don't know if mount is restricted
20:30:13 <ais523> shachaf: it could probably insert the keystrokes for that into the keyboard buffer
20:30:18 <fizzie> It's not restricted when you type it in, at least.
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20:38:26 <fizzie> Interestingly, the "mount" is not a shell builtin, but a separate MOUNT.COM on the virtual Z: drive.
20:38:33 <fizzie> You can copy it elsewhere, and run, and it still works.
20:38:58 <fizzie> (The contents are the 20 bytes ndisasm'd at http://sprunge.us/aiAF)
20:39:39 <fizzie> So presumably you might not even need to play tricks with the input buffer, just use the same int 21h interfaces.
20:41:25 <fizzie> (All the other commands in Z: are also 20-byte files that only differ in their last bytes.)
20:43:24 <fizzie> For the record, int 21h/AH=4Ah is supposed to be "DOS 2+ - RESIZE MEMORY BLOCK" -- resize the block pointed to by ES to have a new size of BX paragraphs.
20:44:20 <kmc> did you look that up in RBIL
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20:45:23 <kmc> hooray for RBIL
20:46:12 <ais523> I actually learned that DOS has malloc/free/realloc as interrupts from a paper book
20:48:13 * impomatic has a copy of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List as a paper book!
20:53:58 <Slereah_> Damn MS DOS is way too fast for an animation!
20:54:00 <int-e> fizzie: the really funny thing is that the files on Z: are almost the same; they only differ in their last byte, as far as I can see.
20:54:13 <Slereah_> If I try to move a square to simulate MOVEMENT I see three at once!
20:54:15 <fizzie> int-e: <fizzie> (All the other commands in Z: are also 20-byte files that only differ in their last bytes.)
20:54:21 <Slereah_> Maybe I should use the timer instead
20:54:24 <ais523> Slereah_: move it more slowly then
20:54:39 <ais523> also, the timer in DOS runs at 19.2Hz
20:54:42 <ais523> which is normally too slow to be useful
20:54:45 <fizzie> int-e: Turns out the int 21h/AH=4Ah bits are just regular code, and it's the invalid opcode FE /8 that does something DOSBox-specific.
20:54:47 <ais523> although I think you can customize it to be faster
20:55:04 <Slereah_> yeah, but I need the screen to refresh at like
20:55:11 <fizzie> (FE /0 is INC r/m8, and FE /1 is DEC r/m8, but the other reg digits of FE are not used.)
20:55:35 <Slereah_> Oh wait, I guess that's 24 hertz
20:55:46 <Slereah_> I guess I can wait for a couple of vsyncs
20:56:06 <int-e> fizzie: though you probably want FE /7
20:56:13 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, a typo/thinko. I think there's actually just two pointers following the FE /7.
20:58:07 <fizzie> Oh, the code's right there in misc/programs.cpp: http://sprunge.us/SCHM
20:59:36 <fizzie> And the final byte is an index into a table.
21:00:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/iWHa love that "//MEM LEAK" comment.
21:04:56 <Slereah_> Apparently two vsyncs are enough
21:06:38 <fizzie> Notwithstanding the funky callback mechanism, it still seems possible for a program to programmatically call the mount-program callback, by setting up the memory properly.
21:10:06 <int-e> in 320x200 mode, vsyncs should have a frequency of 70 Hz.
21:10:18 <boily> fungot: do you notwithstand funkies?
21:10:18 <fungot> boily: great. should i care about" level.
21:17:04 <Slereah_> int-e : So 2 in a row is about 30 images per second
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21:22:10 <Slereah_> Once I do two vsyncs, I have less problems with the screen clearing
21:22:17 <Slereah_> But the upper part of the screen still flickers
21:23:24 <int-e> it takes a while to clear the screen and draw the squares
21:24:26 <Slereah_> Yes, but the squares stay on the screen for a while as well
21:25:05 <Slereah_> I could do a function that removes the shapes instead
21:26:36 <Slereah_> I don't suppose I can do something much faster to clear the screen than rep stosd
21:29:15 <int-e> tough. draw to a memory buffer; copy that over. or learn to use VGA's "unchained mode". then there's 4 pages worth of graphics memory, but you need some IO to actually access it (it interleaves 4 planes of memory). I never really did that.
21:31:09 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_X links to http://www.gameprogrammer.com/3-tweak.html which looks useful
21:31:41 <Slereah_> I think the best solution is to implement a function that deletes the shapes and move them before reprinting them
21:32:09 <int-e> Slereah_: honestly I'd probably do the render to screen buffer, then blit thing.
21:32:19 <int-e> err. to memory buffer
21:33:14 <int-e> "block image transfer"
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21:45:16 <Slereah_> Soon, I will be able to do a pong!
21:45:16 <fizzie> You can also see http://www.brackeen.com/vga/unchain.html for a simplish overview, I think I have used that page.
21:46:48 <fizzie> It has both basic double buffering (draw to in-memory buffer and memcpy -- in your case, perhaps rep stosd -- to video memory) and proper page flipping which needs the masked-write stuff.
22:03:59 <FreeFull> What you can do is chained mode 256x256 with 256 colours
22:04:08 <FreeFull> Which is convienient for some stuff
22:05:21 <Slereah_> Instead of doing sums and substractions I can just check for overflows
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22:10:54 <oerjan> apparently the trøndelag region has had more wildfires so far this year as _all_ of last year. and about half of them last week.
22:11:46 <ais523> oerjan: Norway has wildfires in February?
22:11:54 <ais523> it doesn't seem like an obvious month for them
22:12:13 <oerjan> ais523: it's very unprecedented.
22:13:07 <oerjan> basically no precipitation since jan 11
22:13:21 <oerjan> and plenty of strong wind.
22:13:25 <ais523> there's less than usual in the UK, too, in that it hasn't been /constantly/ raining
22:13:35 <ais523> although there was a thunderhailstorm at one point
22:13:43 <ais523> which is rare in January, those normally happen in the summer
22:14:15 <oerjan> i recall also in the newspaper some firefighter saying they hadn't experienced such a bad month before at _any_ time of year.
22:15:40 <oerjan> let's start a conspiracy that putin made this to get good weather in russia for the olympics.
22:15:56 <kmc> meanwhile california is in the middles of our worst ever drought
22:16:22 <oerjan> kmc: oh i thought the us was buried in snow. i guess not all of it.
22:17:57 <oerjan> i understand much of europe is having bad weather of various kinds
22:19:04 <ais523> oerjan: all of the northern hemisphere is, I think
22:19:18 <ais523> because the polar vortex that's meant to be over the arctic went and visited the US instead
22:19:51 <oerjan> ais523: well that's the us, but does that explain the high pressure zone over russia too?
22:20:18 <ais523> I'm not that knowledgeable about how weather works
22:20:24 <ais523> (but then, neither is anyone else)
22:20:50 <oerjan> i understand they can connect the polar vortex moving to global warming, although not in a way that convinces republicans.
22:21:23 <kmc> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"
22:22:20 <kmc> hence the marks of quotation
22:22:34 <kmc> ceci n'est etc
22:22:52 <oerjan> kmc: what we need to do is convince them that it will kill their children.
22:24:00 <oerjan> well that's the only thing americans are more furious about than money, isn't it
22:24:55 <kmc> depends on the cause
22:25:27 <kmc> if it's school shootings then there's nothing we can do, the government has no place in regulating devices whose literal only purpose is to kill large numbers of people quickly
22:28:38 <oerjan> sarcasm and insanity are the two only ways for americans to (temporarily) survive
22:30:39 <oerjan> FreeFull: so how's the weather in poland
22:32:10 <FreeFull> I'm not in Poland, I was just born there
22:32:18 <FreeFull> I'm in England, and the weather sucks. Lots of flooding
22:34:56 <oerjan> here it's nice, warm (night temperature record yesterday) and dry. got a match?
22:39:29 <kmc> FreeFull: can you ship some of your water over to california
22:40:35 <FreeFull> kmc: Don't have the means of doing that, sorry
22:41:43 <FreeFull> I'd happily swap water for snow
22:41:55 <FreeFull> Although I guess others wouldn't appreciate it as much
22:44:20 <oerjan> <fizzie> Oh, that's just the same. <-- 5 is the most recent version.
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23:01:26 <oerjan> <ais523> can this be TC, I wonder? <-- it seems to me that this is a bag of tokens where you cannot reliably detect that a token is not present unless the bag is completely empty.
23:02:50 <ais523> and with only finitely many tokens
23:02:58 <ais523> perhaps you could do something based on probabilities, though
23:03:16 <oerjan> well there would be a chance of failure
23:03:53 <oerjan> it's like, you have just too little to implement fractran
23:04:00 <ais523> yeah, but you can just reset the program if you detect a failure
23:04:17 <ais523> it'd work fine if you could detect failure reliably
23:04:31 <oerjan> i don't think it can be detected...
23:05:13 <ais523> like, say you use a representation where you have X copies of element A, Y copies of element B, min(X,Y) copies of element C
23:05:41 <ais523> then you can compare X to Y by repeatedly removing items in the order C, A, B, C, A, B…
23:05:48 <ais523> and restarting the entire program if they come out in the wrong order
23:05:54 <ais523> it's unclear how you'd set that situation up to start with, though
23:06:05 <Slereah_> I made a rectangle that moves if you press up or down
23:06:14 <Slereah_> THE FUTURE OF VIDEO GAME IS NIGH GUYS
23:06:19 <Slereah_> I AM WORKING ON THIS AMAZING IDEA
23:06:53 <Slereah_> I call it electric entertainment
23:07:01 <ais523> Slereah_: I'm not sure it'll work, computers aren't particularly flat, making it unfair, and there might not be enough space to get a decent serve either
23:07:07 <oerjan> ais523: ok maybe you can do something that works like a nondeterministic turing machine, in that _if_ it halts without detecting a failure it will have calculated the right result.
23:07:07 <ais523> although attaching the net shouldn't be too difficult
23:07:27 <ais523> oerjan: right, that's the computational class I was aiming for anyway
23:07:27 <oerjan> although it might not be able to restart a computation.
23:07:32 <Slereah_> It will be even bigger than Ball in a Cup
23:07:37 <oerjan> if a failure is detected.
23:07:44 <Slereah_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx4IEmZNegg
23:09:14 <ais523> oerjan: just keep extracting tokens until there aren't any more
23:09:21 <ais523> then jump back to the start of the program
23:10:07 <oerjan> ais523: ok as long as input is encoded in the program, which is enough for tc of course
23:22:16 <ais523> anyway, it's not obviously TC
23:22:22 <ais523> and not obviously sub-TC
23:22:29 <ais523> which is always a property I like in esolangs
23:24:24 <ais523> now all we need is an interesting FSM to hook it up to
23:24:34 <ais523> preferably a pretty powerful one
23:24:42 <ais523> and we have a new interesting esolang
23:32:58 <ais523> actually, there's a neat equivalent way to write this that's more efficient
23:33:16 <ais523> instead of removing entirely at random
23:33:27 <ais523> commands can give a set of values they want to remove
23:33:41 <ais523> if any are in the random bag, one is removed at random, otherwise the program enters an infinite loop
23:37:39 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there is a theorem that is relevant to this, if i can find it again.
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23:48:31 <oerjan> ais523: so you are accepting that a program might loop infinitely instead of ever halting even if it could?
23:48:42 <ais523> oerjan: yes, but with zero probability
23:49:01 <ais523> I normally only care about positive probabilities when it comes to nondeterministic languages
23:53:23 * oerjan cannot remember what it's called
23:56:18 <oerjan> oh i think it may be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickson%27s_lemma
23:56:38 <oerjan> (that's not what i remember, but it may be the relevant special case)
23:57:45 <ais523> this reminds me of subturing oracles
23:58:09 <ais523> or well, subturing language + oracle that might bring it up to some higher computational class
23:59:17 <Taneb> Couldn't Fancy L be called a subturing oracle
00:00:32 <oerjan> ais523: btw the relevance of this lemma if i'm thinking correctly is that any unbounded computation in your language _must_ eventually return to the same program point but with a >= bag than the previous time
00:01:14 <oerjan> which means you can sort of solve the halting problem.
00:01:55 <oerjan> although this doesn't take into account that probabilities may be zero.
00:02:15 <ais523> I don't think having a >= bag than last time means you're in the same program tate
00:02:44 <oerjan> no, you must be in the same point _and_ have a >= bag
00:03:34 <oerjan> ais523: well the thing is, if you return with a >= bag then it is theoretically _possible_ for you to loop infinitely.
00:05:08 <oerjan> because you can repeat the same cycle again and get an even larger bag, etc.
00:06:03 <ais523> clearly, it's impossible to reliably distinguish any bag from a bag that's <= it
00:07:14 <ais523> so you'd have to resort to some sort of probabilistic algorithm
00:10:38 <oerjan> i am not entirely sure when i previously looked at this lemma but it may have been in connection with proving that fractran cannot be tc with unordered rules. although i vaguely think that has a simpler proof.
00:12:07 <oerjan> fractran with unordered rules feels slightly analogous to your language somehow.
00:12:59 <ais523> well unordered fractran can definitely be simulated by this language
00:13:24 <ais523> let X be the largest number of primes consumed by a rule
00:13:30 <ais523> start with X primes that don't appear in any rule
00:13:43 <ais523> repeatedly, take out X items, if they match the numerator of a rule replace them with the denominator
00:13:47 <ais523> if they don't, put them back and try again
00:16:14 <ais523> can we simulate in the other direction?
00:17:26 <oerjan> perhaps we can, we can make a prime for each program position to flag it
00:19:42 <oerjan> yes, i think you can easily do any state machine that goes to a new state based on tokens removed from bag, and adds other tokens
00:21:11 <oerjan> the probabilities may be slightly different, since you will be checking for a particular (set of) token(s) to remove with a rule
00:22:06 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's a problem.
00:23:05 <ais523> you just have a prime for each instruction pointer position
00:23:11 <ais523> and an entirely separate set of fraction for each
00:24:51 <ais523> I tend to assume everything that isn't completely obviously sub-TC is TC
00:25:33 <oerjan> well i'm not sure we've proved unordered fractran is "probabilistically" non-tc
00:26:05 <oerjan> just that you cannot force halting.
00:26:24 <oerjan> although it wouldn't be too surprising if it's non-tc altogether.
00:27:40 <oerjan> also the mutual simulations do _not_ preserve probabilities well - in unordered fractran, you choose rules uniformly, while in your language you choose bag tokens uniformly.
00:28:04 <oerjan> and i don't see a way to compensate for that.
00:29:27 <oerjan> if you had a bag with 1 of each token except for one of which you had a million, there would be a great bias.
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00:44:47 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: that bf-dowhile language we were talking about, ais523 calls it "DoFuck", says he also thinks it's turing-complete, and says "it's such an obvious idea it's probably been invented more than twice"
00:45:08 <oerjan> it keeps getting reinvented by people making broken bf implementations >:)
00:45:39 <ais523> oerjan: that's why I invented it in the first place :-)
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00:52:45 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:53:39 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -1
00:53:39 <HackEgo> 1165) <fizzie> 15:21 .. 15:41 <fizzie> I've got to stop using the IRC input line for short-term notes. <ais523> fizzie: I tend to just send them to the channel <ais523> that way if I need them in the future, I can find them in the log
00:54:20 <oerjan> but _not_ in the repository browser
00:54:45 <oerjan> what i'm wondering is how dylan got in his command
00:55:03 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
00:55:49 <oerjan> Bike: top of http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:56:18 <oerjan> Gregor`: the repository browser is out of synch with HackEgo, both ways
00:57:58 <oerjan> also you cannot click the link to :-D in the diff page
01:08:44 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
01:08:49 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 4 Jan 30 18:39 :-D
01:08:57 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 4 Jan 30 18:39 :-D
01:09:21 <ais523> oh, I assume time doesn't flow in HackEgo
01:16:50 <oerjan> ais523: i don't think the repository in the browser is the same as the one HackEgo is currently using, which is why i'm wondering how dylan managed to get a command into it.
01:17:04 <oerjan> (a command which HackEgo hasn't respected)
01:17:23 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:18:57 <Bike> dylan is within us all
01:18:59 <oerjan> perhaps Gregor` accidentally brought up the old version or something.
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01:19:12 <oerjan> Bike: blowing in the wind?
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01:34:21 <kmc> There was evidence in this room of excessive consumption of almost every type of fungot known to civilized man since 1544 AD
01:34:22 <fungot> kmc: actually in my view anyway), not ( 1 2)
01:36:36 <Bike> how many types is taht (i'm not civilized)
01:41:21 <shachaf> so other than lambda:, python has "with ... as ..." and "for ... in ..." which could more or less be replaced with a reasonable lambda thing
01:42:21 <kmc> i occasionally use the fact that the iteration variable of a for loop is set after the loop exits
01:42:26 <kmc> but i feel gross when i do
01:47:55 <pikhq> I really hate it when I do, because I always declare the iteration variable in the for loop.
02:04:27 <Gregor`> oerjan: The repository browser isn't just out of sync, it's referring to a whole other instance of HackEgo.
02:04:44 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor.
02:04:57 <Gregor> I don't have time to fix all the loose ends right now.
02:05:12 <Gregor> I was remiss to change HackEgo to a new server when I had a hugely busy week coming up ^^´
02:13:00 <oerjan> Gregor: ok as i expected, i was just surprised that there's still someone using the old instance
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02:14:59 <quintopia> thanks for bringing back the hackster
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03:16:25 * Sgeo needs a hit of P3P
03:16:52 <Sgeo> There is nothing good in the world that matches the regex ^P.P$
03:16:55 <Bike> `relcome OverThere
03:16:56 <HackEgo> OverThere: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:17:30 <OverThere> heh, wrong sort of esoteric for me then
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04:17:07 <oklopol> Sgeo: nothing wrong with PCP
04:33:05 <Sgeo> Reading And Another Thing
04:33:14 <Sgeo> I keep noticing when the writing sounds nothing like DNA
04:37:07 <Sgeo> Still some funny parts
04:37:24 <Sgeo> "Ah, you see. I /stole/ it. Therefore it's not mine. You're winning my argument for me."
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05:05:52 <kmc> Sgeo: what about the Post Correspondence Problem
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05:07:38 <Sgeo> Hadn't heard of it until now
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05:50:55 <oklopol> (that was what i meant as well)
05:51:18 <oklopol> also we just talked about pcp here like i dunno some weeks ago
05:51:42 <oklopol> for like 3 messages, maybe even more
05:52:18 <oklopol> you are so busted for not reading every line of the logs ever
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06:16:18 <kmc> Sgeo: you should prove it's undecidable
06:17:42 <kmc> "secure_compare leaks the password always. Note that it takes different time to create a result of ord() depending whether it's <=100 or > 100 due to caching of small numbers." YESSSSSSSSS PYYYYYYYYYTHONNNNNNN
06:17:50 <kmc> cross posting this to every irc channel i'm in
06:18:04 <kmc> (though I thought the cutoff was 256, not 100)
06:19:02 <pikhq> So, that's a compare function that's supposed to take equal time regardless of the actual password, but fails to? Nice.
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06:20:00 <kmc> it's hard to do that in a high level language
06:20:05 <kmc> it's hard to do it and really be sure of it in C, even
06:20:42 <kmc> the suggestion I saw today is that when comparing sensitive strings you should HMAC them both first https://www.isecpartners.com/blog/2011/february/double-hmac-verification.aspx
06:31:18 <Sgeo> Language with space and time constraints in the types?
06:31:34 <Sgeo> Going where Haskell dare not tread
06:31:34 <kmc> that sort of thing would be good yeah
06:31:56 <lifthrasiir> kmc: afaik it was -5 thru 100, but it may have been chnaged
06:32:29 <kmc> `run python -c 'print (255+1 is 256, 256+1 is 257)'
06:33:09 <kmc> ISTR it went up to 256 even a few years back
06:33:18 <olsner> so does that mean the timing attack is fixed?
06:33:18 <lifthrasiir> hmm, it has been changed between 2.4 and 2.5
06:33:49 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah a DSL for constant-time programming would be good
06:34:06 <kmc> forbid control flow or memory access that depends on sensitive inputs
06:34:33 <Sgeo> So tempting to think Racket when I think of DSL, especially now that I'm a Racket kick, but... somehow I think that wouldn't be appropriate here
06:34:33 <kmc> unfortunately it's very hard to be sure that things are really constant time
06:34:48 <kmc> "cperciva tells me he had a dim recollection of some MIPS CPUs which predicted the carry flag to be clear and would have to stall the pipeline in order to re-execute if not"
06:35:05 <kmc> definitely MUL and DIV are often not constant time
06:35:14 <Sgeo> Specialized CPU?
06:35:28 <Sgeo> Seems like this might be a case of CPUs optimizing when we don't necessarily want them to
06:36:06 <Bike> i want mul to optimized, thank you very much! you weirdos with your special cases
06:38:03 <Bike> is taht a real prefix, it's not on osdev
06:38:46 <Sgeo> Is there an ebook of osdev stuff?
06:39:25 <Bike> i'm disappointed in you, lifthrasiir
06:40:39 <Bike> what if i make a processor where all instructions take a pseudorandom number of cycles at least as great as the cost of the slowest instruction (doing some bullshit to mask power usage). imo secure
06:40:58 <olsner> maybe you could do a cpuid every other instruction to serialize stuff
06:41:07 <olsner> it clobbers most of the registers though
06:41:42 <shachaf> is there a complete list of Magic: The Gathering cards that i can grep through
06:42:05 <shachaf> or even just a reasonable list
06:42:44 <kmc> there are other instructions for serializing
06:42:46 <kmc> aren't there
06:43:04 <olsner> I think so, I don't remember what they are though
06:43:14 <Bike> there's http://magiccards.info/
06:43:15 <kmc> there are memory barriers, but they might not inhibit out of order execution
06:44:56 <shachaf> i don't actually care about the cards, just the card names
06:45:18 <Bike> well you ca n look up lists within each set, at least.
06:45:44 <shachaf> aren't there a zillion sets
06:45:53 <Bike> couple dozen, looks like.
06:46:26 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&output=textspoiler,textspoiler&name=+![jsjdfhasgkdsfahgahdf]
06:46:46 <Sgeo> As long as jsjdfhasgkdsfahgahdf never becomes a real card
06:47:18 <shachaf> i didn't see the option to search for "not"
06:49:25 <Bike> oh by the way shachaf, you ever read pirx the pilot
06:50:45 <Bike> i vaguely recall you reading the cyberiad or suchlike
06:50:58 <shachaf> i read only a bit of the cyberiad :'(
06:51:39 <Bike> pirx the pilot reminded me of computer programming, in that everything goes wrong incomprehensibly
06:57:13 <shachaf> hey do you know about the simplex category
06:57:25 <shachaf> you should answer my questions
06:59:06 <Bike> i don't know hsit-all about nothing
07:01:29 <shachaf> ok well do you know that each number in pascal's triangle tells you the number of paths you can take from the top to reach that number
07:01:55 <Bike> is ther ea generalization comeing on
07:02:05 <shachaf> i mean it's p. obvious from the usual definition but imo it's good
07:02:13 <shachaf> maybe, that part is your job hth
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08:23:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure this is any sort of generalization, but if you take the matrix M = (1 1 \\ 1 0), say, and start taking its powers, then you will start seeing fibonacci numbers. another way to see this is that you have a graph with two nodes and adjacency matrix M, and (M^n)_(a,b) gives you the number of paths of length n from node a to node b, and in this case you're basically counting binary words where 11 is forbidden. investigating the interplay betw
08:23:46 <oklopol> een the growth of the matrix entries and the actual sets of paths (in particular, bi-infinite ones) is one of the things symbolic dynamics studies.
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08:31:53 <b_jonas> HackEgo is back. what you say to that, fungot?
08:33:20 <kmc> fungot says "netsplit"
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09:19:36 <fizzie> I just the word "conundrum" in a set of exercises for students, because of alliteration.
09:22:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: used that word unquoted or quoted?
09:22:42 <oklopol> ooops, fizzie accidentally the conundrum
09:27:08 <fizzie> Unquoted. Well, the sentence itself is quoted. It's in the sometimes-whimsical (except I haven't come up with anything whimsical so far) "title" (of sorts) of a question.
09:27:18 <fizzie> I called it the "Conditional contradiction conundrum".
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10:35:29 <b_jonas> wikiplia has a built-in integer type, add and subtract and eq operations, but no built-in less-than comparison, so you have to simulate comparision by subtracting, stringifying the number (there's a built-in op for that), taking the first character of the string, and comparing it to '-'?
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10:46:50 <oerjan> <oklopol> you are so busted for not reading every line of the logs ever <-- shocking
10:48:04 <oerjan> vote for new danish prime minister kicke banne
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12:11:45 <fizzie> Ut-oh. My ~/writing/ (where I keep all "serious" stuff) on the previous department's system seems to be completely empty, as opposed to containing four years' worth of work.
12:12:26 <fizzie> It's also modification-timestamped 2013-12-13, and the automatic snapshots on the NFS thing only reach three weeks back.
12:17:42 <oerjan> fizzie: yer bot is not here hth
12:26:40 <oerjan> my theory that we are in the end times keeps amassing evidence.
12:28:08 <fizzie> Well, it took about five minutes for the admins to restore the files from "a previous home directory server" they had around, and anyway they've got quite a comprehensive set of weekly tape backups; it's just time- and labor-intensive to get at the latter.
12:28:21 <fizzie> Now let's see about that bot.
12:29:20 <fizzie> I need to randomize a freenode server that works, it seems.
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12:30:19 <fizzie> fungot: End times: cancelled?
12:30:20 <fungot> fizzie: i'm a member of the esolang in him and it criticized
12:30:36 <oerjan> postponed for a week, maybe.
12:37:46 <fizzie> oklopol: My thesis draft file is 112 pages, but I haven't actually written anything for it yet. (I just took all the publications I've been involved in -- 70 pages, apparently -- and dumped them in our template file, which adds 42 further pages of lipsum text and miscellaneous overhead.)
12:38:47 <fizzie> (Should start putting the thing together one of these days, given that my doctoral-student funding dried up when the year changed.)
12:39:08 <fizzie> (Silly people and their "must graduate in four years" pretensions.)
12:41:39 <oklopol> mine contains no liirum laarum, but half of it is still copypaste from articles
12:42:07 <oklopol> i only took like 1/3 of our publications
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12:42:45 <oklopol> my coauthor is taking another 1/3 and the rest will be donated to charity
12:43:36 <oklopol> it's a funny term for "nonsense"
12:44:05 <oklopol> i'm sure there's an english one i can't think of, but the finnish one was reasonably close to lorem ipsum so i went for it.
12:44:56 <oklopol> i'm not sure whether you can donate them, i shall contact unicef
12:45:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: you put lorem ipsum text in your dissertation? wow
12:45:42 <fizzie> b_jonas: It was in the template.
12:45:47 <fizzie> \usepackage{lipsum} and all.
12:45:48 <b_jonas> will it remain there in the final versoin?
12:46:16 <oklopol> (actually my coauthor is probably taking less than 1/3, since we/he will surely have 100 pages more next year when he writes it)
12:46:30 <b_jonas> I mean, I have to write a thesis too, and reusing a lorem ipsum generator would be an easy way to pad it
12:46:50 <oerjan> fizzie: you should keep a section of it to keep the reviewers on their toes hth
12:46:56 <b_jonas> just a simple splice articles together thesis probably
12:47:30 <oerjan> me and my coauthor both included our common articles in the theses...
12:48:29 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm not sure if all the publications are going to be included, I just put them all in for now. Anyway, the convention here is that we'd both just claim some percentage of the article, and write something vague in the "Author's Contribution" section.
12:48:32 <b_jonas> these are all co-written articles
12:49:02 <oerjan> oh wait you didn't say they were disjoint 1/3rds
12:51:45 <oklopol> it took me like a month to come up with a natural way to include more than 3 of our articles in a coherent thesis
12:51:55 <oklopol> well i'm not sure i succeeded, but anyway
12:52:16 <oklopol> no two are on the same topic, basically
12:52:21 <b_jonas> oklopol: yeah, I know that feelign
12:52:58 <oklopol> except of course all of them are about CA and subshifts which is a pretty small topic :D but to me they feel like very different topic.
12:54:46 <oklopol> b_jonas: what's your topic?
12:56:55 <oklopol> then you may give details!
12:57:11 <b_jonas> basically we invent graph invariants that are crazy enough that nobody have tried to prove anything about them yet, then prove anything we can about them, and try to phrase it in a way that the statements sound interesting and nontrivial
12:58:29 <oklopol> no offense but that sounds awesome no matter how much you try to downplay it
12:58:45 <b_jonas> one statement is about a graph invariant that is lessequal to the fractional chromatic number and 1/e times the fractional chromatic number
12:58:50 <b_jonas> here => http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/publ.html
13:00:40 <oklopol> my goal in life is to make cellular automata a respected field of mathematics
13:01:07 <fizzie> And world peace while you're at it?
13:01:17 <oklopol> no i think wolfram did that in ankos
13:01:24 <b_jonas> no way. world domination, that's more like it
13:01:41 <oklopol> world peace is on page 787
13:04:49 <b_jonas> ah right, promise world peace in the abstract, then if you get by page 787 it turns out you can get world peace in some special case in a very simplified model provided the generalized riemann hypothesis, and it's not known to be constructible in polynomial time.
13:06:51 <b_jonas> and it's world peace only within a huge constant factor only.
13:06:55 <oklopol> so what do you think of bondage and domination?
13:07:20 <oklopol> (any non-graph theoretical connotations are accidental)
13:10:13 <b_jonas> huh? what is bondage in this context? I don't really know much about any area of maths really.
13:11:54 <int-e> "bondage number" ... "Restrained bondage number of a graph" ...
13:12:08 <oklopol> well bondage numbers and domination numbers are graph invariants, but perhaps only if you spend too much time reading arxiv
13:12:31 <int-e> The authors must have the same giddy feeling as M. Spivak about "The Joy of TeX".
13:14:05 <int-e> Liars. "This site uses cookies to improve performance."
13:14:43 <int-e> Another great book title. "Topics on Domination"
13:15:10 <oklopol> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00222-003-0335-2
13:16:09 <oklopol> hmm maybe it's not called sex entropy there
13:16:18 <oklopol> but it's called sex entropy in his talks
13:16:48 <oklopol> (i don't know who came up with the term but anyway)
13:17:14 <b_jonas> on crazy terms mathematicians use, see this anecdote => http://mathoverflow.net/questions/53122/mathematical-urban-legends/53738#53738
13:17:52 <int-e> without looking, exploding points on a plane?
13:18:20 <b_jonas> exploding is what sml does
13:18:32 <b_jonas> when it converts an array to a list
13:18:40 <int-e> (The "blowing up" line was typed after I had a look.)
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13:23:12 <boily> good sticky morning!
13:23:19 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
13:26:31 <FireFly> Good think the HackEgo was resurrected before the next `olist
13:28:11 <boily> essential services were restored just in time!
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13:45:01 <oerjan> wait wait you forgot the number
13:57:30 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
13:57:57 <HackEgo> echo "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
13:58:24 <int-e> `` shuf -n1 complaints
13:58:43 <boily> hm. http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/6c8a8b8f754f/complaints
13:58:49 <int-e> `` shuf -n1 complaints
13:59:25 <int-e> `` ls -la complaints
13:59:26 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 9 Sep 25 13:06 complaints -> /dev/null
14:00:37 <int-e> "It's backup day today so I'm pissed off. Being the BOFH, however, does have it's advantages. I reassign null to be the tape device - it's so much more economical on my time as I don't have to keep getting up to change tapes every 5 minutes. And it speeds up backups too, so it can't be all bad can it? Of course not."
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14:02:48 <int-e> gnocchanoodlegoo?!
14:06:40 <boily> gnocchi channel nooodl gobbledygook?
14:08:45 <int-e> I started out with "cockadoodledoo".
14:08:53 <int-e> Since apparently it's morning somewhere.
14:09:11 <nooodl> it's 15:08 here but i also just got up. the flu is something
14:09:52 <int-e> 15:09:44 <FreeFull> 14:09 here
14:10:22 <oerjan> `? nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodles
14:10:22 <HackEgo> Nooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
14:10:31 <HackEgo> Wed Feb 5 14:10:30 UTC 2014
14:10:45 <boily> Today is Sweetmorn, the 36th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3180
14:12:59 <int-e> hah. https://twitter.com/ddate
14:13:24 <int-e> (seems to be late though)
14:20:35 <FreeFull> "The rights of a Pope include but are not necessarily limited to: (...) 3. To baptise, marry, and bury (with the permission of the deceased in the latter two cases). "
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14:43:44 <metasepia> CYUL 051412Z 05016KT 2SM -SN BKN014 OVC028 M09/M12 A3015 RMK SC7SC1 SLP213
14:48:34 <metasepia> ENVA 051420Z 12008KT CAVOK 04/M05 Q1002 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 17010KT
14:50:38 <metasepia> EFHK 051420Z 10005KT 9999 SCT010 BKN150 M04/M06 Q1012 NOSIG
14:50:52 <fizzie> Now they've gotten rid of the runways.
14:51:03 <fizzie> Oh well, have to bus a catch. ->
14:52:00 <boily> they only show runway conditions if they are suboptimal.
14:52:08 <boily> fizzie: good catching!
14:54:14 <oerjan> i hope he'll release it afterwards.
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14:55:38 * boily gestures “I once catched a 10 ton bus that was that long”
14:57:18 <oerjan> someone give boily medical help for his arms
15:00:01 <boily> contrary to what my previous affirmation may imply, I am most definitely not slenderman.
15:02:14 <boily> “Dith can make any species 'uncannily stealthy' with very little investment. A sneaky troll is awesome!”
15:11:43 <callforjudgement> elliott__: not sure I agree with that, dtsund seems to have given recent Crawl up altogether because he feels it's more difficult than it should be
15:12:07 <elliott__> oh! if dtsund has given up then it's probably even better than I thought
15:13:16 <boily> “more difficult that it should be”? it's a roguelike, for fungot's sake!
15:13:19 <fungot> boily: fnord do! exchange has to call another procedure with those values as memory etc... :) ..but true. things work out though, because our cell is no longer ' ()
15:17:31 <callforjudgement> boily: strangely enough, difficulty for the sake of difficulty does not create a good game
15:17:56 <callforjudgement> see, for instance, the comments by the creator of IWBTG about how he went to a lot of effort to make sure it wasn't too hard
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15:18:57 <boily> @tell callforjudgement I agree, but fun difficulty with challenging mental challenges is fun. it's like playing go.
15:19:19 <boily> @tell ais523 check your callforjudgement messages plzkthx hth twh hand
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15:24:05 <int-e> It's important to be able to make progress - being stuck in the same spot for hours is a powerful fun-killer. Others include having to play the same boring sequence over and over again in order to get to a challenging part where one keeps failing.
15:24:26 <elliott__> that doesn't happen with procedurally generated permadeath games
15:24:39 <elliott__> not really the former either, unless it's a particularly grindy one
15:25:23 <ski> if you can't make progress in one part, it's nice to be able to attack some other part
15:25:29 <boily> int-e: that's why DCSS has chopped off and shortened many branches and levels.
15:25:53 <boily> ski: that's a big problem Angband has: one main line of repetetitive levels.
15:26:28 <ski> there was some game where apparently some people would go walk in a treadmill for extended periods of time, while they thought over what they had tried, and what they might try to do in other places
15:26:34 <int-e> I'm having the same problem with ninja twins (level 26, no motivation to play further)
15:26:35 <elliott__> ski: crawl does fairly well with that due to branches
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15:27:21 <int-e> (though actually what puts me off most are the game logic glitches. In that level, one can partially push sliding blocks into other ones...)
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15:33:11 <fizzie> oerjan: I caught it, rode it, and then let it go.
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15:39:42 <boily> I think I found my new favourite chimæ̈ric hello ^^
15:41:02 <Johnnie> After doing some tinkering on SPAM/1, I got to thinking about some of the very early issues of Byte magazine from Archive.org. I remember Chess being one of the first major programs published.
15:42:07 <Johnnie> After that thought got stuck in my head for a while, I got to thinking "Why are we only doing Hello World programs? Couldn't we write something a bit bigger?"
15:42:47 <Johnnie> At first I thought of Chess, and then I thought something more simpler....Tic-Tac-Toe. Hence the entry in the Ideas page.
15:44:52 <ski> hm, i was thinking about "Matt Chat 173: Quest for Glory with Lori and Corey Cole" by Matt Barton in 2012-11-18 at <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfUgS_iZOw>, at 19:43 and some minutes through
15:44:58 <ski> int-e,elliott__ : ^
15:45:11 <ski> (the whole interview is pretty enjoyable, though)
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15:45:45 <Johnnie> I'm going to need to flag that down and view it after work.
15:46:55 * ski doesn't know "Crawl"
15:47:42 <Johnnie> I think a simple game algorithm would tell apart ones who are serious in developing an eso (or joke language) from those who just wants to do a quick BF derivative.
15:48:24 <boily> ski: ssh joshua@crawl.akrasiac.org, password is joshua.
15:48:58 <boily> it's the most popular north american public crawl server?
15:49:00 <int-e> BF' ... where cells store functions (initially 0); + adds e^x to the function; - subtracts e^x; . outputs the function value at 0, and ' takes the derivative of the current cell. ;-)
15:49:03 <Johnnie> (Joshua....flashbacks of "War Games" ^__^ )
15:49:23 <int-e> (with respect to x)
15:50:20 <int-e> It's a derivative derivative of BF.
15:51:17 <Johnnie> That comes curiously close to John Conway's Game of Life, there
15:53:14 <ski> ("Crawl" is a Rogue-like game ?)
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15:54:51 <boily> ski: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. it is (ostensibly) the Best Roguelike Out There.
15:56:49 * ski hasn't really felt any urge to try out Rogue-likes
15:57:03 <ski> (perhaps Phantasie III is the closest)
15:57:22 <metasepia> Phantasie is a fantasy role-playing video game series designed by Winston Douglas Wood and published by Strategic Simulations, Inc. in 1985.
15:57:53 <boily> games published before I was born are the best ones.
16:00:04 <ski> otoh, i've spent many hours playing Dungeon Master
16:00:32 <ski> (one of the first 3D realtime action RPGs)
16:05:40 <tromp> i sunk 1000s of hours into DM on my Amiga 500
16:07:03 <tromp> a lot easier to master than Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup:)
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16:22:51 <metasepia> ESSA 051550Z 02003KT 6000 BR OVC014 01/M01 Q1007 R01L/19//95 R08/19//95 R01R/19//95 NOSIG
16:23:00 <metasepia> KATL 051552Z 31017G20KT 10SM BKN020 BKN025 11/07 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP169 T01060067
16:23:12 <boily> quintopia: 11? how dare you?
16:23:55 <metasepia> LOWI 051550Z VRB08G21KT 9999 FEW070 BKN110 BKN150 09/M02 Q1003 NOSIG
16:24:38 <int-e> mostly because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foehn winds, apparently.
16:39:50 <quintopia> i did come up with something so crazy i don't understand it last night
16:49:57 <quintopia> and you iteratively do the following
16:50:31 <quintopia> then pop x numbers and push them in order back onto the queue y times
16:50:58 <quintopia> and if you would pop an empty queue, you get zero
16:52:01 <int-e> so abc22 -> bcbca, where the reading end of the queue is to the right?
16:52:13 <quintopia> some queues delete themselves (having lots of 1's usually) some queues reach a steady state (of all two's)
16:52:38 <int-e> and some loop, like 2222 -> 2222
16:52:38 <boily> 6 5 4 3 2 1 → 6 5 4 3 → 0 6 5 0 6 5 0 6 5?
16:52:56 <boily> hm. 3 should be there 2 times.
16:53:14 <int-e> 6 5 4 3 2 1 -> 4 3 6 5, I think.
16:53:29 <int-e> err. which is x, which is y?
16:53:37 <quintopia> boily: 654321 33654 0336033603360336
16:54:03 <quintopia> i usually put the read end on the right so i can append easier
16:55:37 <quintopia> so here's what i know: if you have a queue with no number greater than 2, and no more than 2 2's adjacent, it will delete itself. if you have a queue will all twos (at least four) it never changes, and if you have all >1 it grows without bound.
16:56:04 <quintopia> i have yet to find an oscillator with period >1
16:56:56 <quintopia> int-e: well, okay, it has to have some threes in the right position or it will steady state like all twos
16:57:14 <quintopia> but a healthy mix of twos and threes grows forever, for instance
16:57:35 <quintopia> if they are all >1 it will never get shorter
16:58:15 <int-e> 22 -> 0000 -> 00 -> e. sorry, boundary cases.
16:59:25 <int-e> quintopia: in the last statement you said "healthy" which wasn't defined ;)
17:00:03 <int-e> obviously any 2-digit string will die.
17:00:06 <quintopia> i guess you have to have some threes in positions which are 0 or 1 mod 4
17:02:30 <int-e> tricky. (32222)+ will stop growing.
17:03:10 <int-e> (I'm now also popping from the left)
17:04:49 <int-e> It looks like there are many ways to end up with repeated 2s eventually. The question of finding another kind of loop is interesting.
17:06:44 <quintopia> int-e: you have to have some 3's in both types of positions apparently...
17:07:04 <quintopia> anyway, the cases in between are the ones i'm interested in
17:07:06 <int-e> or not. 07420742 -> 420742 -> 07420742
17:07:15 <quintopia> like what about queues with only 3's and 1's
17:08:47 <nooodl> what about oscillators of arbitrary period
17:08:49 <int-e> ((0 ?)^k(2k)2)^{>=2}, of period k.
17:08:54 <quintopia> now how about a sequence that grows really really big before deleting itself over the course of thousands of iterations :P
17:09:39 <nooodl> did int-e just anticipate my question and answer it in two seconds
17:11:01 <int-e> quintopia: that's a starting sequence; after one step you have 10^10^10 1s. after 10^10^10/2 more steps, it'll be empty.
17:11:15 <int-e> or not, it's 10^10^10+1?
17:11:26 <int-e> nah, first guess was correct.
17:11:41 <quintopia> well that's lame. i was hoping it'd have some non-1s in it for most of the steps.
17:11:59 <int-e> But I messed this up: ((0 ?)^k(2k+2)2)^{>=2}, of period k+1
17:12:12 <quintopia> what about a sequence that spends half the cycles growing and half the cycles shrinking, alternating between the two phases forever
17:12:49 <quintopia> what i just said, but replace forever with "finally deleting itself after thousands of cycles"
17:13:52 <int-e> I guess "look for a cycle with period > 1, without using 0" is a good problem.
17:13:58 <nooodl> what about 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 ...
17:14:34 <nooodl> i think that keeps pushing more 1s to the end before becoming just 1s and destroying itself?
17:14:56 <int-e> 121 -> 11; 2121 -> 21; etc.
17:16:58 <int-e> but yes, one can start with 3 n 1 4 1, which will grow for n+1 steps and then shrink for 2n steps, or so.
17:18:08 <int-e> (5 -> 3n -> 3n+1 -> ... -> 4n -> 4n-3 -> 4n-6 -> ... more like 4/3n steps of shrinking)
17:18:58 <int-e> No, the shrinking phase consists of consuming 111, appending 1; the difference is only 2.
17:26:44 <quintopia> now i want to start with the beginning of pi
17:34:26 <nooodl> http://sprunge.us/ddVC -- $ python q.py 0 7 4 2 0 7 4 2
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17:38:14 <int-e> python q.py 8 2 0 7 0 9 0 -1 8 2
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17:42:36 <int-e> it doesn't matter how often a string of length 0 is repeated ;)
17:42:55 <nooodl> 4 2 0 n 4 2 and 4 2 6 n 4 2 seem to be the shortest oscillators
17:43:40 <nooodl> 5 2 1 0 4 5 2 is also a cool one
17:43:42 <quintopia> i like that i can just describe something here and get an implementation without any effort
17:44:20 <nooodl> ooh it found a new one! 4 3 4 0 4 3
17:45:03 <int-e> a predecessor (4 0 4 3)^3; all part of the pattern :)
17:46:53 <int-e> it chops off 6 elements at once, I never did that.
17:51:09 <quintopia> 426142 is an oscillator, but 426542 grows without bound
17:51:17 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/LwjTn0HIUewiNZAWZPwJ/ short oscillators
17:52:40 <FireFly> http://sprunge.us/TfAC now in Python 3 and stopping after reaching ()
17:53:28 <nooodl> 4 n 4n-8 0 4 n is another one that works for all n
17:53:52 <quintopia> 426142 is still the only one with no zeros
17:57:46 <int-e> 6 2 10 1 8 1 6 2 is another (period 3). 6 2 8 1 6 2 8 1 is an accidental one with period 12.
17:58:39 <quintopia> looks like we can get complicated behavior?
17:58:48 <int-e> 8 2 14 1 12 1 10 1 8 2 has period 4, and there's a whole familiy of those.
18:03:00 <FireFly> It's a bit obvious, but the 2{4,} family of oscillators could all be generated as 1 N 2
18:03:19 <int-e> (pattern: 2n 2 (4n-2) 1 (4n-4) 1 ... (2n+4) 1 2n 2, for period n)
18:03:30 <kmc> fungot: beep boop
18:03:30 <fungot> kmc: heh, my impression of uni was that the output tape, in any such language from the libraries. you just have a function that will find if two lambda expressions i gave? you didn't use
18:03:53 <kmc> `relcome password2
18:03:54 <HackEgo> password2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:04:10 <FireFly> I think they were `relcome'd yesterday
18:04:24 <kmc> THEN WE RELCOME THEM AGAIN
18:04:26 <FireFly> or was that only an attempt that failed due to unavailability of the HackEgo?
18:04:37 <FireFly> the more the merrier, they say
18:08:41 <quintopia> enough random numbers to make the whole thing have 2n+2 elements?
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18:17:26 <boily> back from lunch, and the `relcomes Are!
18:18:47 <password2> ah , finally i get the full relcome
18:19:13 <password2> and . HOLy shizz , colors in an irc channel
18:20:09 <boily> password2: EMBRACE THE COLOURS!
18:22:49 <password2> NSFW http://anticache.img5.joyreactor.com/pics/post/comics-oglaf-sex-rainbow-479025.jpeg
18:23:31 <password2> that is what went through my head when i read 'EMBRACE the COLOURS'
18:24:23 <FireFly> I thought for a second that you had a NSFW link about esolangs
18:25:00 <boily> the colours are esoteric?
18:25:49 * boily browses Amazon for a certain Lovecraft story...
18:25:59 <password2> i am trying to imagine how a nsfw esoteric lang would work
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18:32:35 <boily> there is a very interesting overlap between this chännel's quotes, and crawl's learndb. I already knew elliott__'s in both, but then monqy too.
18:36:14 <password2> mmm , this channel has made it very tempting to try my hand at writing a eso lang
18:38:02 <password2> i geuss i should try by writing an interpreter for one first
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18:40:22 <boily> password2: that's usually how it goes. you write interps for various esolangs, get your brains mangled by underload, coast along, then create your own...
18:41:44 <int-e> boily: project gutenberg didn't help?
18:42:49 <boily> int-e: oh. hm. eh. eeeeeegbhghghghgh.
18:42:51 -!- augur has joined.
18:43:34 <boily> “eeeeeegbhghghghgh”: a native Canadiamerican word meaning “I completely forgot about Project Gutenberg.”
18:44:41 <int-e> oh and there's this one ... http://cthulhuchick.com/free-complete-lovecraft-ebook-nook-kindle/
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18:50:44 <kmc> fungot: nobody knows the wreck of the soul the way you do
18:50:44 <fungot> kmc: nooooo... *cries*) an call that code from chicken?
18:50:55 <fungot> int-e: it returns their both results. boggle.)
18:51:01 <fungot> int-e: ummm...i dont know. but i was suggesting that initself_ paste his stuff particularly amusing. and you...
18:51:41 <boily> fungot: whoi is initself?
18:51:41 <fungot> boily: " i've never used rails apart from the ugly ruby frameworks that i'm considering trying it out will be interesting
18:51:54 <boily> fungot: oh, a rubyist.
18:51:54 <fungot> boily: what would ' aa fnord aaaaa' become? :d did i leave?
18:52:07 <boily> fungot: an exponentially growing sequence. next!
18:52:07 <fungot> boily: for say ' ( require-srfi 1)' would be better than buying her a zero
18:52:21 <boily> fungot: hey, no human traffic! you can't buy Fiora.
18:52:21 <fungot> boily: so that ( print ( 5 7 9) ' odd) ( else ' even))
18:52:35 <FireFly> boily: no no, I think the zero was a gift
18:52:40 <boily> btw, where is she?
18:53:00 <boily> FireFly: aaaah. the Gift of the Null Knowledge.
18:53:31 <FireFly> fungot: flowers and chocolate are common when it comes to humans, but I dunno about bots...
18:53:31 <fungot> FireFly: heh remember the fnord defun but mine would too but apparently it just isn't going to be wrong
18:53:38 <FireFly> but then again, zeroes are ring-formed, so there's always that
18:54:01 <FireFly> fungot: it isn't going to be wrong?! great!
18:54:01 <fungot> FireFly: doesn't fnord five, for example. it could be
18:54:32 <boily> I think a basket of chocolate-covered fnords would be a nice gift to fungot.
18:54:32 <fungot> boily: gui toolkits. which confused me. by " interesting" to most people.
18:54:52 <FireFly> No, I don't think a lot of people find GUI toolkits interesting..
18:55:16 * boily screams “JAVA SWING IS GOOD!”
19:08:08 <olsner> fungot: JAVA SWING IS GOOD?
19:08:09 <fungot> olsner: alfred jarry! say something about th' death of disco!! i'm in a chroot
19:08:38 <olsner> if you grepped for fungot, I wonder if fungot or people asking fungot to speak would make less sense
19:08:39 <fungot> olsner: does " algorithm" for applying unrestricted grammars, whereas i associate logic programming with a set of defined operations on cells? sounds a bit like fnord
19:09:12 <boily> olsner: people make less sense. fungot is the Clearest of Us All.
19:15:06 <int-e> shining with the clarity of a smokescreen illuminated by fire
19:18:30 <FireFly> fungot: are you trying to get an "i'm in a chroot" meme going?
19:18:31 <fungot> FireFly: every time i've attempted. ( f a ( f b c) b c) b c)
19:19:05 <int-e> of course there had to be unbalanced parentheses.
19:19:55 * boily balances fungot with a curved mapole
19:19:56 <fungot> boily: uh... this can't be good.
19:20:02 <boily> fungot: no, it isn't.
19:20:03 <fungot> boily: either way it doesn't use any overly schemely stuff', ' names x', you know
19:21:43 <fizzie> Is a Java swing bit like a sex swing?
19:22:11 <int-e> they do have frames
19:23:50 <FireFly> `run quote fungot | shuf -n 1
19:23:51 <fungot> FireFly: i'm just reading the program, and it was long ago...
19:23:51 <HackEgo> 249) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
19:24:35 <FireFly> fungot: yes. that quote was indeed long ago.
19:24:35 <fungot> FireFly: lol, in a country with compartively strong gun control, and partitioning, and almost a week until i buy more!"
19:25:26 <boily> fizzie: uhm. your bot. he is become Death.
19:26:00 <fizzie> That's kind of worrying. I guess e's buying guns over the Internet, then.
19:26:53 <fizzie> Also, regarding your earlier question, I think Fiora gave up on the channel when there was that discussion on offensive terminology the other day.
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19:41:57 <Johnnie> I'm on my first defense :)
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19:55:23 <boily> @tell Johnnie defending what?
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19:59:59 <kmc> tromp: I read about your cuckoo proof of work function. very cool!
20:02:25 <tromp> still not seeing any cuckoins though:-(
20:03:03 <kmc> do you plan to develop your own cryptocurrency?
20:04:13 <kmc> but you could get rich quick
20:05:32 <FireFly> so where can I buy esocoins?
20:06:13 <tromp> first, port bitcoin source to brainfuck
20:06:31 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:07:15 <fizzie> @ask boily You people with your "never use ask and tell consistently" policies!
20:07:51 <tromp> or would esocoin replace proof of work be proof of new esolanf design?
20:08:30 -!- Johnny_ has joined.
20:09:20 <Johnny_> Is Nathanator on these IRC chats?
20:09:34 <boily> fizzie: what's the difference between ask and tell? and don't tell me ask is related to MonadReader, and tell MonadState.
20:11:09 <tromp> what's your excuse for not starting a crypto-currency, kmc?
20:11:43 <boily> Johnny_: we have Taneb.
20:13:12 <Johnny_> Nathanator and Taneb are two separate people, I take it.
20:15:04 <HackEgo> 963) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
20:15:45 <boily> Johnny_: I suppose there's a functor going from elliott__ over to Taneb for that principle.
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20:16:32 <Johnny_> I'm wondering if either SPAM/1 is in danger of being deleted, or if I need to put more effort into it (IE: transfer protocol vs. computer language)
20:18:33 <elliott__> no admin is non-lazy enough to delete things with non-spam content
20:19:51 <Johnny_> Okay. That gives me room to work on the programming language part of it. I think I might have put in too much emphasis on the transfer part.
20:21:03 <boily> imho, it's well spent emphasis. the first esolang with amateur radio codes!
20:21:06 <kmc> tromp: basic laziness
20:21:39 <tromp> too lazy to get rich:)
20:21:53 <kmc> i'm already fairly rich
20:21:53 <FireFly> These "Who created X?" captchas are clever
20:22:07 <tromp> anybody here who's poor and not lazy?
20:22:15 <Johnny_> Thanks for the vote of confidence, boily. I want to challenge myself to make a complete game. Either Tic-Tac-Toe (easiest) or chess (ambitious)
20:22:18 <kmc> we have a lot of students don't we...
20:22:19 <FireFly> If I weren't lazy I wouldn't be poor
20:22:31 <oklopol> tromp: will you make such people rich?
20:22:36 <kmc> i don't think the expected value of making a new altcoin is that high
20:22:44 <kmc> and it's the kind of thing i will fuck up with my laziness
20:23:02 <oklopol> wait i probably should've read some context
20:23:10 <tromp> they can start the first coin to use cuckoo cycle proof-of-work
20:23:16 <oklopol> i thought tromp just joined and said that, but it was zzo who joined.
20:24:10 <FireFly> Are the "who invented X?" CAPTCA questions on the wiki generated by parsing the articles or hardcoded?
20:27:05 <Johnny_> When I was chatting up with someone else about my project, they suggested for me to add on the Carrier Pigeon standard as another physical layer of the language.
20:28:24 <Johnny_> I don't think I'm that ambitious...but that would make for an interesting language...based entirely on carrier pigeons and no computers. (Sound existential and possibly stupid doesn't it? :-)
20:28:48 <boily> long live RFC 2549!
20:29:06 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers ← has them all.
20:30:51 <FireFly> 1459 is the only RFC number I can remember..
20:33:43 <boily> 2822 has been somewhat important for a few projects.
20:43:37 <Johnny_> You guys are way ahead of me. All I have under my belt is inspiration from the first 6 issues of Byte and the first 2 issues of 73 magazine.
20:48:37 <FireFly> I'm not sure what "ahead" would mean here
20:49:22 <Johnny_> "ahead" here would mean I have no idea what RFC 1459 or (until last night) RFC 2549 are.
20:50:51 <FireFly> You're making good use of RFC 1459 at least
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20:55:46 <Johnny_> Huh...and here I thought the IEEE was all there was. I had no idea the Internet Engineering Task Force existed.
20:56:29 <Johnny_> Oh well, there's probably a whole array of stuff I don't have a clue about, either!
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21:32:10 <zzo38> What do you think is better way to store jump tables for use with RTS trick in 6502 programming? Some people store the low byte and high byte of the address together in one table, but I think it is better to store the low and high byte in two separate tables. What do you think is OK?
21:37:48 <kmc> what are the tradeoffs of each approach?
21:39:33 <zzo38> The first way requires a more complicated code to read the table, especially if there are more than 128 entries. The second way is difficult to enter in some assemblers which lack sufficient macro/preprocessor/postprocessor facilities.
21:47:45 <zzo38> It seems other people think the first way is better despite this but to me clearly it is second way which is better.
21:48:00 <zzo38> It is a faster and smaller code.
21:50:20 <kmc> yeah if you can push more of the work to the assembler then that seems better
21:50:32 <kmc> since these days the assembler runs on a machine like 9,000,000,000x faster than the target 6502
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21:51:14 <zzo38> I suppose they use assemblers without macros or something like that, though; or assemblers with macros that aren't very powerful.
21:51:19 <Taneb> I am enjoying playing Dungeons and Dragons
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21:51:31 <zzo38> Taneb: I was playing Dungeons and Dragons yesterday.
21:51:40 <zzo38> I am typing it now, and will reveal when ready.
21:52:07 <Taneb> Ours isn't recorded and it isn't far enough into the story to tell you what's really going on
21:52:34 <Taneb> There is a crow sorceress who definitely isn't the Raven Queen, not even a raven queen
21:52:52 <Taneb> Who is after a magical tattoo that ended up on my chest
21:53:38 <zzo38> Now you have to cast a spell to remove it
21:54:02 <Taneb> The party's mage is only level 1
21:54:35 <Taneb> Well, we levelled up at the end of the session
21:54:38 <HackEgo> danddreclist 49: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
21:54:56 <zzo38> Then use mundane means to remove it to not waste the magic
21:55:05 <zzo38> (Or in case someone might counter it)
21:55:08 <Taneb> I don't think we have access to any
21:55:17 <Taneb> And it doesn't seem particularly nefarious
21:55:24 <Taneb> I mean, I've had it for a session and a half
21:55:44 <zzo38> Now see how my game is played.
21:56:03 <zzo38> I often find it useful to act last even if I have initiative, perhaps almost half of the time.
21:56:22 <Taneb> My character is a pacifist, which is interesting and fun in its own way
21:56:43 <Taneb> But all four other members of the party are quite combat heavy
21:57:11 <zzo38> My character is pretty weak at combat too, and doesn't do much combat
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21:57:28 <Taneb> I have a "kill" count, which is currently 1
21:57:33 <zzo38> Mostly doing other stuff, both magical and mundane.
21:57:57 <Taneb> My character mostly heals
21:58:16 <zzo38> But isn't technically pacifist except he won't ever deliberately harm any aberration type creatures.
21:58:42 <zzo38> I also am the one to heal in my party, but isn't most of what I do, and I do have one damaging spell but mainly use it just as one way to light things on fire.
21:59:04 <zzo38> In case we need something lit on fire; if it is nonliving then they can't dodge either.
21:59:48 <zzo38> They also can't save.
22:02:43 <zzo38> The book "Art of Defense in Chess" inspired some of the tactics I use, too. Do you like to use tactics similar to chess and chess variant too?
22:05:00 <kmc> which tactics are those zzo38?
22:05:18 <kmc> and what sorts of things do you light on fire?
22:05:59 <zzo38> kmc: I don't commonly light things on fire, and even when I do, is more commonly using mundane means to do so, but sometimes things such as wooden doors, explosives, etc
22:06:30 <kmc> is that a good way to get through a door which is locked?
22:06:32 <zzo38> The tactics I mean are all sorts of defensive tactics, but also tactics which combine attack with defense.
22:06:55 <zzo38> kmc: It depends on the circumstances. Everything is depend on the circumstances. Maybe there is no need to get through such a door anyways.
22:08:26 <zzo38> I once use a fire to light a secret hideout on fire; I was magically slowed, and would probably have failed if I was fast since the people in the way would not have dodged.
22:09:15 <zzo38> So the slowness is actually to my advantage; spell the opponent cast on me, or try to do, are to my advantage, whether or not I know what the spell is, in fact.
22:10:20 <zzo38> For more details it is necessary to read the file I linked.
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22:30:55 <oerjan> <int-e> BF' ... where cells store functions (initially 0); + adds e^x to the function; - subtracts e^x; . outputs the function value at 0, and ' takes the derivative of the current cell. ;-)
22:31:00 <oerjan> i see what you did there
22:35:51 <oerjan> <quintopia> i usually put the read end on the right so i can append easier <-- heretic!
22:36:49 <oerjan> that makes it a _lot_ harder on the eyes to trace the running
22:38:31 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see the olist
22:39:03 -!- kmc has set topic: Fake diamonds that are glued to eyes of plastic crows | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:39:45 <shachaf> fungot: what do you think of montreal
22:39:45 <fungot> shachaf: i got to work on the mapper. it's
22:40:12 <shachaf> also why does the topic have lyrics in it
22:41:29 <kmc> doesn't it usually, when I've set it?
22:41:37 <kmc> shachaf: they're not even from montreal :<
22:42:09 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of of montreal
22:43:04 <shachaf> kmc: i don't know anything about it
22:43:16 <kmc> oslo in the summertime?
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22:51:46 <kmc> how are you
22:52:06 <kmc> you missed zzo38 talking about lighting things on fire
22:52:39 <shachaf> do you know about monotonic functions between finite ordinals
22:52:48 <shachaf> oh, wait. non-empty finite ordinals...........that changes everything
22:52:56 <shachaf> maybe this is why i kept having those off-by-one errors
23:01:18 <kmc> no matter where we are, we're always touching by underground wires
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23:05:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen nathanator ever
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23:10:51 <fizzie> HackEgo: You're being a bit optimistic with that `seen ... ever bit. It's not going to work any better.
23:11:17 <kmc> ever the optimist
23:12:07 <oerjan> "it is ILLOGICAL to fill a room with foam" http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/140205.html
23:21:44 <oerjan> <FireFly> Are the "who invented X?" CAPTCA questions on the wiki generated by parsing the articles or hardcoded? <-- hardcoded
23:27:12 <shachaf> who invented this sentence?
23:28:51 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, and weetoflakes.
23:29:32 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/and .*/weetoflakes, and this sentence./' wisdom/tanebvention
23:29:37 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence.
23:31:33 <shachaf> `run echo >wisdom/this\ sentence 'This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.'
23:31:57 <HackEgo> This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
23:32:57 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
23:34:11 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/d-modules/tanebventions/' wisdom/taneb
23:36:34 <shachaf> did Taneb invent Tanebventions
23:36:39 <FireFly> But how many *backup* genders does Taneb have?
23:36:44 <Taneb> I think boily did, shachaf
23:42:09 <HackEgo> cellular automata? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:42:13 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
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23:46:26 <FireFly> `? automatic squirrel feeder
23:46:26 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
23:46:57 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
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23:58:33 <luserdroog> Hello, all. I'm working on designing a new esolang, and I'm running into some trouble.
23:59:04 <luserdroog> http://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/4618/what-piece-am-i-missing-to-turn-this-idea-into-a-programming-language/4912#4912
00:00:23 <luserdroog> I've since come up with a syntax and execution model. It operates byte-wise, as a TAG-system, applying function trees upon the program input stream.
00:01:01 <luserdroog> rough draft interpreter (doesn't implement function trees): http://codepad.org/wqOOdShZ
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00:02:27 <luserdroog> But trying to implement anything is exceedingly painful. I can't seem to make an adder since everything operates bitwise.
00:02:56 <luserdroog> There's no nice way to propagate data from one bit to another.
00:04:27 <luserdroog> Maybe it needs an association mechanism so you can store functions in variables and not have to spell everything out literally. ... Then I could make a standard library with adders and stuff....
00:05:55 <luserdroog> string-rewriting seems much more tedious than stack-based systems. I'm not sure if there's anything I can do to alleviate that with fancy syntax.
00:06:47 <luserdroog> So that's the mess that brought me here! Not sure if I really have a question in there ... :)
00:08:14 <luserdroog> Currently, to make a loop, you have to make a quine. :)
00:08:31 <oerjan> well that much isn't so unusual in esolangs
00:09:03 <oerjan> i'm too tired to understand yours right now
00:09:38 <oerjan> have you seen /// by the way
00:10:01 <oerjan> (string rewriting + making quines are the bread and butter of it)
00:10:25 <luserdroog> I see. I didn't work with it enough to realize that.
00:11:44 <luserdroog> Of itself, that doesn't seem too terrible. ... But I'm not even sure how to do it with my language as currently defined.
00:12:21 <luserdroog> I suppose I should let the unconscious work on it for a while.
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00:25:26 <Sgeo> Two blocks of code, A and B, where B has a comment implying it needs to be below A. I decide B needs to be above A. The meaning of one of B's lines changes, and the comment needs to change... but the line in question still means what I need it to mean, even though it's something different from what it originally meant
00:26:15 <Phantom__Hoover> you pick the most bizarre points in a problem to resort to irc Sgeo
00:26:36 <Sgeo> I wasn't asking for IRC's assistence
00:26:48 <Sgeo> I was noting something funny that happened
00:27:00 <kmc> that is pretty cool
00:27:29 <Sgeo> I think I don't know if I should have made the change though, before the change was what got QAed, although I felt it was less correct
01:08:55 <coppro> does anyone else sometimes use 'mv /path/to/file/name_{old,new}'
01:09:08 <shachaf> isn't that the standard thing
01:09:28 <kmc> that's good yes
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01:09:34 <kmc> KMC Seal of Approval
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01:10:33 <kmc> shachaf: i've started doing rm -fr instead of rm -rf
01:10:47 <kmc> what's with that
01:11:11 <FireFly> I use {,~} and {~,} with mv rather often
01:11:43 <kmc> you mean République française?
01:12:48 <oerjan> coppro: i keep using that on HackEgo, anyway.
01:13:10 <oerjan> (usually when someone's misnamed a wisdom entry)
01:13:15 <Taneb> Anyone know a website on group theory that's like, "Here's an interesting starting point, see where you can go!"
01:16:57 <oerjan> Taneb: now i'm reminded of oskar's cube
01:17:22 <oerjan> i played it on the web many years ago
01:18:01 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, find out how the orbit-stabiliser theorem works or something, that got me hooked
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01:24:36 <oerjan> bah i found a java applet (perhaps the same as years ago) and IE's security settings refuse to run it.
01:25:09 <oerjan> or perhaps it's actually malware, who knows.
01:26:54 <Taneb> type Lens s t a b = forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
01:27:04 <oerjan> lambdabot: you have competition
01:27:32 <Sgeo> Blah, I don't think Racket has convenient functors
01:28:47 <Sgeo> I can't just use the function functor, can I? For some reason I was thinking of a lens as a modifier
01:29:13 <Sgeo> I have put 0 thought as to what having f be (-> r) would mean in this case
01:30:59 <Taneb> You could use data-lens style lenses?
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01:36:28 <kmc> (-> r) is a contravariant functor isn't it? unless you meant ((->) r)
01:36:31 <kmc> "best syntax ever"
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02:25:12 <Sgeo> I should totally attempt to write a maccall for Racket
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02:34:49 <kmc> what's that
02:42:32 <Sgeo> funcall for macros... evaluates the first expression in the transformer environment then applies the result to the rest of the body of the maccall
02:42:47 <Sgeo> No idea if that's actually a good idea
02:43:49 <Sgeo> http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/syntax-util.html?q=syntax-ev&q=eval#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fsyntax..rkt%29._syntax-local-eval%29%29
02:43:53 <Sgeo> syntax-local-eval
03:02:00 <Sgeo> Hmm. I think the Racket core language is well specified in terms of its syntax, but not what primitive functions exist :(
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03:13:37 <Sgeo> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/15570254295359/15570254295359.ogg
03:13:50 <Sgeo> Is this some well-known classical music that I just never thought of in those terms?
03:13:57 <Sgeo> Or some other well-known piece?
03:16:32 <quintopia> from gregor? i wouldn't think so...
03:17:23 <Sgeo> The .ogg was generated by his WebMIDI service
03:27:18 <kmc> Sgeo: what's funcall
03:28:01 <Sgeo> kmc: Common Lisp function that lets you call value that represents a function
03:28:34 <Sgeo> Assume compose is adequately defined. ((compose f g) 1) won't work, but (funcall (compose f g) 1) does
03:28:40 <Sgeo> The first item in the list has to be a function name
03:28:49 <Sgeo> (I think literal lambdas count as function names)
03:31:29 <luserdroog> Sgeo: parts of that music reminds me of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition
03:34:34 <Bike> Sgeo: there's a special case to allow ((lambda ...) ...), yeah.
03:34:38 <quintopia> Sgeo: thanks for reminding me how bad midi instruments on webmidi sound
03:34:50 <Sgeo> quintopia: blame sonivox
03:34:51 <kmc> Sgeo: oh this is a Lisp-2 thing?
03:35:04 <kmc> #justlisp2things
03:35:18 <Bike> though it's sometimes nice to do (map #'funcall ...) and such.
03:35:29 <kmc> what's the advantage of lisp-2 again
03:35:37 <quintopia> Sgeo: was it made in canada? its not worth laying blame unless i can blame canada
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03:35:54 <Bike> kmc: better for small talk than the weather
03:35:57 <Sgeo> Bike: In Haskell, you do have ($)
03:36:34 <Bike> i didn't mean that was special to cl o'course
03:36:48 <Sgeo> So I guess funcall isn't totally a Lisp-2 thing, but it's not as needed in a *-1
03:37:08 <Sgeo> Or, well, not needed for all the use-cases CL needs it for, anyway
03:37:22 <Bike> i can think of some reasons to want it in kernel, but yeah
03:37:28 <Bike> not a terribly interesting function
03:37:53 <Sgeo> kmc: Well, one is no overlap with non-hygienic macros between functions, which aren't often letted, and other lexical variables
03:38:05 <Sgeo> Not sure if that's the one most CLers would point to
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04:26:20 <kmc> "One-person protests are legal in Russia, and the two activists holding signs were spaced far enough apart that neither was arrested."
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04:26:53 <Bike> admirable planning!
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04:55:46 <shachaf> kmc: -fr is the scow of rm options
04:56:38 <shachaf> kmc: i bought some KMC brand card sleeves
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05:02:57 <shachaf> as in the worst specimen of something
05:03:38 <kmc> why is it the worst
05:03:49 <kmc> why is it worse than -rf or -r -f or --recursive --force
05:04:01 <kmc> Recursive Force is my new superhero team name
05:04:38 <shachaf> why is "xzvf" the right order for tar options?
05:04:54 <kmc> everyone knows that
05:05:21 <kmc> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dsfjdssdfsd -- The dsfjdssdfsd list provides a venue for discussion of randomness in IETF protocols
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05:23:05 <oklopol> shachaf: as in garbage scow!
05:24:59 <oklopol> i promise to use it someday
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05:36:40 <newsham> someone should write a fun esolang on top of https://microcorruption.com/login
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06:40:20 <kmc> hi newsham
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08:24:23 <oklopol> hmm, wonder if i said a lot of random stuff here, accidentally put my mouse in the top left corner again and all the programs formed a grid
08:24:27 <oklopol> this time i can't get back
08:24:42 <oklopol> so now i can use all the programs at once, but i can't exactly see what i'm doing
08:24:46 <quintopia> int-e: i just manually rediscovered the 62816281 oscillator :P
08:25:16 <quintopia> oklopol: your example for Clue looks a lot like Wouter's example from the screenshot of Aardappel
08:25:36 <quintopia> i think we should have a battle of the programming-by-example languages
08:25:49 <oklopol> guess i have to take the battery out because the power button just opens a "shut this system now" window and the mouse doesn't do much
08:25:52 <oklopol> wish i could read your replies
08:26:16 <oklopol> can you write in like huge walls of letter
08:28:38 <olsner> shachaf: I would put z first, or skip it entirely since (gnu) tar autodetects compression
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08:29:16 <olsner> I also always do rm -fr, which apparently is much less common than rm -rf
08:30:11 <oklopol> "<quintopia> oklopol: your example for Clue looks a lot like Wouter's example from the screenshot of Aardappel" it does?
08:30:33 <oklopol> i recall reading some of aardappel's documentation, but i thought it was a much weaker kind of programming by example
08:30:45 <oklopol> like, i never even realized they have something in common
08:30:53 <oklopol> i wonder if i just plagiarized the whole thing
08:31:01 <oklopol> which example are you referring to?
08:31:15 <shachaf> kmc: did you know http://hackage.haskell.org/package/regex-compat-0.95.1/docs/src/Text-Regex.html#subRegex uses a regex to search for backreferences in the replacement string
08:31:43 <shachaf> also the whole haskell regular expression thing is ridiculous
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08:32:12 <Bike> iirc one of the examples in the snobol manual was a snobol grammar, i appreciated that
08:32:27 <kmc> shachaf: you should solve it by making a new api in a new package
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08:33:36 <shachaf> (=~) :: (RegexMaker Regex CompOption ExecOption source, RegexContext Regex source1 target) => source1 -> source -> target
08:34:03 <kmc> yeah I remember complaining about that a lot
08:34:13 <kmc> shachaf: https://twitter.com/MuseumOfTypes
08:35:46 <oklopol> quintopia: the big difference is that in aardappel, you actually describe exactly what the program flow is; it's just written in terms of concrete examples. the point of clue is that there is no direct way to control program flow.
08:36:08 <oklopol> aardappel actually makes a lot of sense; not that i have any idea whether it's any nicer to program in than clue.
08:37:17 <oklopol> (of course, in practice, you program in clue by splitting your function into a million subfunctions, but in theory that's only because my compiler is kind of crappy)
08:40:04 <oklopol> oh cool, kate has sessions
08:40:28 <oklopol> maybe next time my computer throws a fit i won't have to spend half a day opening files
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09:16:12 <quintopia> ^tel nooodl 434043 is actually infinitely extendable. 4340434043 or 43404340434043 etc. all are period 2.
09:16:20 <quintopia> ^tell nooodl 434043 is actually infinitely extendable. 4340434043 or 43404340434043 etc. all are period 2.
09:16:20 <fungot> I think you mean @tell instead?
09:16:32 <quintopia> @tell nooodl 434043 is actually infinitely extendable. 4340434043 or 43404340434043 etc. all are period 2.
09:16:40 <fungot> quintopia: but you'd expect a comic, but fnord seals help. thanks to the wonderful world of metric units... they're as specific as possible
09:17:44 <fizzie> fungot: What makes a unit more specific?
09:17:45 <fungot> fizzie: i use both hands
09:23:19 <shachaf> kmc: did you see the series of posts starting at http://conway.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/wiki/blog/posts/WordNumbers1/
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10:10:53 <fizzie> @tell Bike "After several years of successful events worldwide, MATLAB EXPO comes to the Nordic region for the first time in 2014." Aren't we lucky?!
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12:48:29 <oerjan> <shachaf> kmc: -fr is the scow of rm options <-- i tried googling if "is the scow of" was a new meme, but in fact there's only two hits, one of which is a literal scow and the other of which is a misspelling.
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12:54:27 <fizzie> I think the second is a misOCRing, actually.
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13:25:22 * oerjan realizes phil foglio writes pretty funny blog posts
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13:51:03 <int-e> http://www.bergfex.at/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ then.
13:55:13 <Taneb> Should I get myself Purely Functional Data Structures? Hmm
13:57:17 <int-e> Okasaki, hmm. The thesis can be downloaded, maybe look at that and then make your decision.
13:58:53 <Taneb> Okay, I'm ordering it
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14:05:02 <oerjan> oh wait these posts were actually by kaja, not phil.
14:05:37 <oerjan> actually the tagging is confusing.
14:06:13 <int-e> here's hoping that the tagging is acyclic.
14:07:12 <oerjan> well it's tagged phil's blog but uploaded by kaja.
14:08:41 <oerjan> hm i think that does mean phil wrote it, since others are tagged "kaja's blog".
14:23:25 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/NCKS <- crazy.
14:23:37 <fizzie> (I heard of a similar thing somewhere in I think Sweden.)
14:24:00 <int-e> You said all there is to say about that service.
14:25:36 <fizzie> "The German banks sued Sofort for inducing their customers to break their terms and conditions by disclosing passwords, but the case failed when the Federal competition authorities intervened and told the court that competition with the payment card cartel was welcome."
14:25:40 <fizzie> I don't exactly have a great love for banks in general, but that all still feels weird.
14:26:25 <int-e> So now the banks will go after their customers?
14:27:06 <fizzie> I don't know if they've started to just systematically refuse all fraud claims from anyone who's used that thing.
14:27:17 <int-e> How is a customer supposed to tell the difference between a benign, honest payment proxy service and a dishonest one?
14:27:29 <fizzie> (But it sounds like something they could conceivably do.)
14:28:30 <boily> good terrifying morning!
14:28:45 <int-e> is there an rsync source for the logs?
14:29:17 <fizzie> There was a hg source, wasn't there?
14:29:42 <fizzie> Don't think there's public rsync, but could be wrong.
14:31:02 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ \ \ ⌨ \ ⊥ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠
14:31:10 <boily> hm... I wanted the special case here.
14:31:15 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ \ \ ⌨ \ ⊥ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠
14:31:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
14:32:03 <int-e> (Though the banks themselves are not much better. I believe I've mentioned 3dsecure here before ...)
14:32:20 <boily> int-e: you mentioned that horror before.
14:32:34 <boily> meanwhile, IEUAAAAAAAARGH!
14:33:33 <fizzie> I've probably missed any mentions of 3-D Secure, but I see it quite a lot these days. A grandiose name it's got, at least.
14:33:42 <oerjan> sofort sounds like a good idea with horribly insecure implementation.
14:35:32 <oerjan> boily: ah yes, that's quite annoying...
14:36:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^969195 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
14:36:05 <fizzie> At least the 3-D Secure banking account query comes directly from the bank. Well, when it isn't a phishing scam version, anyway.
14:36:17 <oerjan> `run /bin/ls -id wisdom
14:36:27 <int-e> fizzie: it still looks like cross site scripting and does not play well with NoScript.
14:36:38 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/969195/790887/' bin/ls
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14:36:43 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
14:37:18 <HackEgo> bin/ls: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
14:38:14 <boily> oerjan: the special case is both useful and not at the same time. I think I'm trying to solve the wrong problem here.
14:38:37 <oerjan> int-e: do that and it'll tell you the rsync by notice
14:38:42 <boily> what I'm trying to get is a list of mtimes for wisdom entries, in order to fulfill my duty as a Wisdom Lexicographer.
14:40:26 <oerjan> boily: alas the repository browser is currently broken due to being connected to the old HackEgo server
14:40:31 <oerjan> or something like that
14:43:28 <oerjan> and i think Gregor said the http proxy is also broken, which means basically there's no way to get information out of HackEgo except through irc lines
14:47:01 <int-e> so \ you \ have \ to \ ex \ fil \ trate \ slow \ ly.
14:47:26 <int-e> (I counted the number of syllables and then decided against using actual newlines. I hope you all appreciate my restraint.)
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14:55:06 <boily> int-e: «qu' \ est- \ ce \ qui \ a \ be \ soin \ d'être \ ex \ fil \ tré?» (what needs to be exfiltered? (sorry for the French, it's easier for me to count syllables so.))
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15:13:36 <HackEgo> [U+1E49 LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH LINE BELOW]
15:14:08 <int-e> `uniencode EQUALITY SIGN WITH LINE BELOW
15:14:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uniencode: not found
15:14:42 <boily> `unicode EQUALITY SIGN WITH LINE BELOW
15:15:45 <int-e> ⪠ (hmm, invisible in my terminal)
15:16:42 <boily> that is one fungot of a character.
15:16:57 <boily> fungot: indeed. a bunch of lines sitting on top of each other.
15:16:57 <fungot> boily: you can implement one in c
15:17:08 <boily> fungot: well, everything can be implemented in C.
15:17:08 <fungot> boily: or maybe talking about government or media schemes *ponder* where did you get their... basics. oh, and it
15:17:31 <boily> fungot: the government ponders and spies on its citizens, as usual. nothing new there.
15:17:31 <fungot> boily: erc doesn't seem to be wanting to restrict yourself that way? :o) so, i'm switching off python
15:17:50 <boily> fungot: Python can't be switched off. Python is the Eternal Light.
15:19:02 <HackEgo> [U+26C3 BLACK DRAUGHTS KING]
15:20:28 <int-e> `unicode SHORT LEFTWARDS ARROW ABOVE RIGHTWARDS ARROW
15:20:44 <HackEgo> [U+2942 RIGHTWARDS ARROW ABOVE SHORT LEFTWARDS ARROW] [U+2943 LEFTWARDS ARROW ABOVE SHORT RIGHTWARDS ARROW] [U+2944 SHORT RIGHTWARDS ARROW ABOVE LEFTWARDS ARROW]
15:21:09 <int-e> I don't get it. Why add 3 of four combinations?
15:22:19 <boily> because the fourth was banned by the [REDACTED] branch of the Second Schism of the East-North-Eastern Quasi-Orthodox Sub-Russian Christian Amalgamated Church.
15:23:18 <int-e> (My fault, I still haven't given up the idea that Unicode is supposed to make sense.)
15:23:36 <elliott__> int-e: when in doubt, the answer is back compat
15:23:43 <int-e> Honestly, I should know better.
15:24:46 <int-e> I should instead marvel at the perfectly regular Braille range.
15:32:50 <int-e> Oh I think screen destroyed those.
15:37:33 <int-e> they were supposed to be dominoes
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15:40:30 <boily> second attempt at dominating: 🀱🀲🀳🀴🀵🀶🀷
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15:41:21 <ion> https://www.quakenet.org/articles/102-press-release-irc-networks-under-systematic-attack-from-governments
15:42:40 <int-e> boily: if you check the logs you'll see that both attempts worked:
15:42:47 <int-e> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-02-06
15:43:02 <boily> int-e: my local weechat logs seem to bork them, sadly.
15:43:28 <boily> (or probably not. an hexdump has them all.)
15:44:16 <boily> strangely, myndzi 69ed his stick figure.
15:46:20 <ion> They are right in my Weechat buffer and logs.
15:49:34 <boily> something is wrong here. very wrong.
15:50:55 <oerjan> the stick figure looks completely sfw here
15:51:31 <boily> oerjan: it is. the characters ‘6’ and ‘9’ are displayed twice before the body.
15:51:49 <oerjan> ah the log thing is because of some irc codes that don't show up in browsers
15:54:03 <oerjan> you can see the same kind of thing whenever someone `relcomes
15:54:59 <HackEgo> `relcome: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:55:07 <oerjan> i assume myndzi's codes are to make the figures look good in more clients
15:55:11 <boily> I am now illuminated.
15:55:30 * FireFly moves the flashlight away from boily's face
15:55:42 <ais523> `relcome doesn't need welcoming, it's been here for ages
15:55:53 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:55:54 <int-e> ^Cnnn[,nnn] switches colors in mIRC, but color 69 is not defined. ^O switches back to the original.
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15:56:03 <int-e> looks like a complete waste of bandwidth to me.
15:56:03 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
15:56:22 <FireFly> int-e: presumably to avoid bots interpreting it as a command
15:56:26 * boily grabs back his precious flashlight from FireFly, thank you very much.
15:56:36 <int-e> FireFly: plausible, thanks
15:57:05 <FireFly> But I think just ^O should do it, really
15:57:48 <Johnnie> Minor dilemma...should I switch all of the syntax on my language to Morse Code, or leave it as Amateur Radio Callsigns? (In other words, do I really need to be nice?)
15:57:59 <int-e> FireFly: yes, but given the channel's background, sneaking in a 69 that noone is ever likely to see is kind of cute.
15:59:10 <boily> Johnnie: I like the ARC words.
15:59:34 <boily> int-e: a “thausible” thing is one that is theoretically plausible.
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16:00:19 <FireFly> That seems thausible to me.
16:01:30 <Johnnie> I do too, boily. I think I need to emphasize SPAM/1 as a morse code language somehow. How about this...ARC words in defining syntax and examples, and morse code in coding examples?
16:01:39 <ion> thausiblee
16:02:52 <boily> Johnnie: sounds good.
16:03:41 <boily> `run echo 'A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.' >wisdom/thausiblee
16:04:12 <ion> Also: thausiblee = thausible and only thausible
16:04:39 <Johnnie> I feel like I'm on a roll. I'm going to define more of the mathematics section tonight. I felt I needed to deal with output of large and small numbers first and get that out of the way, at least.
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16:57:27 <quintopia> boily: i was looking at a similar triangles worksheet with a flagpole problem on it and my brain reported the word as "mapole" the first time i scanned it.
16:57:47 <quintopia> boily: you are a breeder of memetic viruses
17:05:40 <FireFly> boily: define the mapole problem
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17:09:51 <quintopia> did you see the queue machine thing i made up?
17:10:30 <quintopia> it seems like the kind of thing you are capable of proving things about and i am woefully poor at
17:15:49 <quintopia> there are lots of links related to it, but all discussion happened right here yesterday .... would have been about 6pm UTC
17:16:16 <quintopia> i was going to make a wiki article but haven't decided on a name yet :P
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17:48:56 <shachaf> oerjan: it is among a small group of people, and they have grown tired of it
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17:58:04 <quintopia> ais523: boily: int-e: which name do you like the best: Copper, Resplicate, Pocopure
18:03:25 <boily> it sounds like res publica. the Res Plicate: the Thing of the Plic.
18:03:58 <boily> also, I'm glad that your brain was memetised :D
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18:09:05 <quintopia> boily: it's a chimæra actually. a portmanteau of slice, replicate, and splice
18:14:00 <quintopia> what do you call a device that does the same thing over and over, and the thing it does may or may not be capable of arbitrary computation
18:14:40 <quintopia> fractran is an example, but the wiki describes it as a "computational model" presumably because it is known to be capable of arbitrary computation
18:15:38 <quintopia> hmm maybe computational model is what i want
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18:17:40 <boily> quintopia: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/thing.png
18:20:31 <FireFly> Did you just design the logo of Resplicate?
18:21:55 <quintopia> while waiting for that to load i became aware of just how crazy the temporal dithering of my monitor on the particular shade of grey firefox uses is
18:22:22 <boily> temporal dithering?
18:22:39 * boily imagines palette dithering techniques applied to the time dimension. “ow.”
18:29:45 <int-e> It's just generalised PCM.
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18:30:09 <FreeFull> quintopia: I don't notice the temporal dithering on my laptop unless I look really closely
18:30:23 <FreeFull> I don't think my old laptop actually does any temporal dithering at all
18:31:06 <int-e> Add a low pass filter (like rod cells and nerves) and you won't notice a thing.
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18:38:26 <quintopia> how to wikify images floating to the right of the text
18:38:37 <ais523> quintopia: I like Copper best
18:39:09 <ais523> also [[Image:foo|thumb|right|description]] IIRC, but I haven't done it for ages
18:39:17 <ais523> so there may be minor mistakes there
18:39:21 * boily mapoles the heretic-ais523 away “Long Live Resplicate!”
18:40:36 <quintopia> nooodl: i mean are you going to vote on the name of the queue game/computational model/language thing
18:40:48 <quintopia> nooodl: which name do you like the best: Copper, Resplicate, Pocopure
18:41:10 <FireFly> I think nooodl 'has to' vote for Pocopure
18:41:29 <quintopia> FreeFull: FireFly: how are you voting
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18:43:38 <quintopia> it also has the best logo. but Copper is the name of my dog, and i have a picture of him wearing my mustache which could also be a good logo!
18:44:30 <FireFly> You make a convincing argument
18:44:53 <HackEgo> spiette: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:50:55 <boily> FreeFull: quintopia seems frozen.
18:51:01 <metasepia> KATL 061752Z 00000KT 10SM BKN140 BKN200 BKN250 05/M04 A3026 RMK AO2 SLP256 T00501044 10050 21017 58012
18:51:09 <boily> FreeFull: at least, refrigerated.
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19:15:32 <metasepia> EFHK 061850Z VRB02KT 8000 NSC M10/M11 Q1003 NOSIG
19:17:09 <metasepia> CYUL 061900Z 22011KT 30SM FEW020 FEW120 BKN220 M12/M18 A3024 RMK CF1AC1CI4 CF TR SLP242
19:17:11 <fizzie> I went out and took a picture of the moon, and indeed there were No Significant Clouds.
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19:18:29 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:20:41 <fizzie> Curiously enough, the phase of the moon turned out -- completely by coincidence -- to be pretty much exactly the same it was in 2009 when I did the same thing on a previous camera: just shot the moon with no telescopes or whatnots.
19:24:05 <boily> fizzie: I badly photographed the moon a few years ago: http://boily.deviantart.com/art/Fuzzy-super-harvest-moon-180200524
19:25:46 <fizzie> boily: Here's my old and new ones: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140206-mooncomp.jpg
19:27:23 <fizzie> You can almost see the US flag! (Not really.)
19:47:11 <int-e> fizzie: that raised an interesting question. cf. http://www.rocketroberts.com/astro/flag_on_moon.htm
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19:55:10 <oklopol> is it possible to prove there's a flag on the moon from the earth?
19:55:38 <fizzie> Does it count if you send (from the Earth) some kind of a thing up there that sends back pictures?
19:55:58 <olsner> depends on what proof you need ... can you even prove that the moon exists from the earth?
19:56:02 <boily> shine a very bright laser on the flag. if it bursts up, then there was one.
19:56:20 <fizzie> They do the "bounce a laser through the retroreflectors" experiment quite often, AIUI.
19:56:21 <oklopol> it seems int-e's link is about exactly this
19:56:41 <fizzie> Though that only proves there's something retroreflectorey up there, and not a flag.
19:57:31 <oklopol> so there's a specific place on the moon that retroreflects?
19:57:41 <oklopol> that sounds like some kind of proof that someone's been there at least
19:58:02 <boily> `echo 'The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.' >wisdom/moon
19:58:02 <HackEgo> 'The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.' >wisdom/moon
19:58:04 <fizzie> I'm not sure how narrow a beam they shoot.
19:58:08 <boily> `run echo 'The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.' >wisdom/moon
19:58:20 <fizzie> But I suppose they do target one of the reflectors when doing that.
19:58:23 <oklopol> perhaps the people who doubt space travel aren't the same people who own space lasers
19:58:24 <fizzie> (There's several of them.)
19:58:55 <int-e> "The typical red laser pointer is about 5 milliwatts, and a good one has a tight enough beam to actually hit the Moon—though it’d be spread out over a large fraction of the surface when it got there." http://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
19:59:09 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, and the "proof" comes in from of a computer screen where slowly a hump becomes visible in a graph.
19:59:28 <fizzie> oklopol: So obviously the scienceperson doing the experiment is just faking it.
19:59:32 <int-e> (you need a better laser. oh and plenty of power to be able to actually see any of the reflected light.)
19:59:51 <oklopol> fizzie: but in theory, you could do the experiment from scratch in your own home
20:00:26 <fizzie> Well, I suppose. The moneys and the expertise, that is.
20:00:49 <oklopol> it seems unlikely that people find out that you're using the lasers you buy to check for retroreflectors and rig them to shoot lasers that retroreflect from stone if they are being shot toward the moon
20:01:10 <fizzie> Some of the moon landing hoax debunk pages list evidence like that; I think there's photos from moon-orbiting satellites that show some of the landing sites.
20:01:40 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings
20:02:07 <fizzie> (Of course that's just evidence that the conspiracy is larger.)
20:03:00 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
20:03:31 <HackEgo> A racoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in fur
20:03:50 <boily> the Moon Landings are a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in cosmic butterflies.
20:03:56 <fizzie> `echo 'A coonspirator is a colloquial term for a racoonspirator' > wisdom/coonspirator
20:03:57 <HackEgo> 'A coonspirator is a colloquial term for a racoonspirator' > wisdom/coonspirator
20:04:02 <fizzie> `run echo 'A coonspirator is a colloquial term for a racoonspirator' > wisdom/coonspirator
20:04:24 <int-e> `` echo 'A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.' > wisdom/coonspirator
20:04:47 <boily> going to go with int-e for that one.
20:05:07 <boily> `? conspirabiology
20:05:07 <HackEgo> conspirabiology is where moth colourings form a dot matrix display to send you subliminal messages.
20:05:45 <olsner> sounds like a cococoonspirator
20:06:29 <olsner> and conspirabiology moths are probably postcocoonspirators
20:07:14 <boily> I should subliminatically inspire the Crawl devs to include Conspirabiology Moths in the next release :D
20:07:33 <boily> (now that Suppression Moths are to be removed. bummer.)
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20:08:33 <nooodl> isn't "cocaterpillar silk wrapped in llaborators" how oyou're supposed to make that terrible joke,
20:10:07 <olsner> I think co is like negation and something similar to demorgan's rule applies, but how to apply it is ... not always obvious
20:10:20 <olsner> at least not everything flips all the time
20:10:41 <int-e> nooodl: the opposite category has the same objects as the original one. only the arrows are inverted.
20:11:06 <int-e> and co-properties are usually properties in the opposite category.
20:24:10 <olsner> hmm, did I do something wrong?
20:24:37 <FireFly> I'm guessing `hello is GNU hello
20:24:41 <olsner> fungot: can you haskell
20:24:42 <fungot> olsner: we all knew that already... with pattern matching). its a program which used packrat.
20:24:59 <FireFly> olsner: clearly. They even know how to pattern-match
20:25:09 <coppro> why is reasoning about haskell designs so goddamn hard
20:25:25 <olsner> FireFly: I think fungot's an it
20:25:25 <fungot> olsner: it would be not starting the homework until it is needed. :p anyway, the test is easy to use with w3m? w3?
20:25:45 <FireFly> I just like using singular they
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20:26:10 <olsner> I have noticed them FireFly do like they, they do
20:26:49 <boily> fungot: do you low-pass your retina?
20:26:49 <fungot> boily: ( open file ' ./linguine/ linguine.py': errno 13 permission denied
20:27:01 <fungot> boily: i'm robert fnord. here take a piece of freenode furniture
20:27:43 <FireFly> Good. This channel could use some more furniture
20:29:03 <olsner> `addquote <fungot> I'm Robert Fnord. Here, take a piece of freenode furniture.
20:29:03 <fungot> olsner: ok i loaded srfi 13 now. i should have no syntax errors: lisp! :)
20:29:04 <HackEgo> 1166) <fungot> I'm Robert Fnord. Here, take a piece of freenode furniture.
20:30:07 <fungot> FireFly: yes, somewhat. the s-expr version would take about a page of elisp tutorial
20:30:30 <boily> fungot: are you the George Foreman of furniture now?
20:30:30 <fungot> boily: mmm. so good :)
20:30:36 <boily> fungot: it must be!
20:30:36 <fungot> boily: same thing. the only pleasing parts of the file. what exactly are those continuations that multi passes?
20:30:48 <boily> fungot: I don't understand continuations.
20:30:49 <fungot> boily: everything? :o) where
20:30:57 <boily> fungot: in Haskell. they hurt my brain.
20:30:58 <fungot> boily: if you want the with-alist. code?
20:31:08 <boily> fungot: there is a list?
20:32:12 * boily shakes fungot “WHERE IS THE LIST?”
20:32:54 <ais523> that bot has flood control
20:33:01 <ais523> it'll stop responding to any given person after a while
20:33:16 <olsner> boily apparently doesn't have flood control
20:33:23 <nooodl> fungot: do you hate boily
20:33:23 <fungot> nooodl: did the glass suffer damage? :) ( of course, i could
20:33:25 <boily> ais523: I know. I just like molesting bots.
20:33:35 <boily> `quote damn your mother
20:33:36 <HackEgo> 950) * fungot has joined #esoteric <boily> woohoo! the one and only fungot is back! <fungot> boily: damn your mother! <boily> ok. never saw that one coming.
20:33:48 <nooodl> boily: fungot could hate you!
20:33:49 <fungot> nooodl: in theory, you could simply enter a new definition
20:34:06 <FireFly> Just redefine boily and everything will be fine
20:34:29 <boily> I won't be redefined! that is categorically unthausible.
20:34:40 <fungot> olsner: i guess :) i haven't found them.) is very difficult for math people to let go of sysrq but not of the form
20:35:02 <int-e> > let begin c = c []; push xs x c = c (x:xs); bin (?) (a:b:xs) c = c (b?a:xs); add = bin (+); sub = bin (-); end [v] = v in begin push 1 push 2 push 4 add sub push 3 sub end
20:35:04 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = t0 -> a0
20:35:19 <int-e> oh. monomorphism etc.
20:35:31 <boily> ~eval let begin c = c []; push xs x c = c (x:xs); bin (?) (a:b:xs) c = c (b?a:xs); add = bin (+); sub = bin (-); end [v] = v in begin push 1 push 2 push 4 add sub push 3 sub end
20:35:37 <boily> ~eval let begin c = c []; push xs x c = c (x:xs); bin (?) (a:b:xs) c = c (b?a:xs); add = bin (+); sub = bin (-); end [v] = v in begin push 1 push 2 push 4 add sub push 3 sub end
20:35:38 <metasepia> Error (1): Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = t0 -> a0
20:36:04 <olsner> I read something about the next GHC disabling MR by default, so it seems finally the future is here
20:36:20 <int-e> > let begin c = c []; push xs x c = c (x:xs); bin (?) (a:b:xs) c = c (b? a:xs); add = bin (+); sub = bin (-); end [v] = v in begin push 1 push 2 push 4 add sub push 3 sub end
20:36:23 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
20:36:23 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
20:36:23 <myndzi> /< c.c >\ /| | | /| c.c |\ | >\|/| c.c /|
20:36:55 <Slereah_> what's the c.c thing supposed to be
20:36:56 <int-e> implicit arguments make b?a a function application.
20:37:17 <FireFly> Slereah_: a multiocular o, I believe
20:37:19 <int-e> boily: bin (?) ... <-- it was an argument name.
20:37:27 <kmc> Slereah_: it's a combination of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O and the "c.c" emotiwhatever
20:37:36 <kmc> which is like "eyes looking away in vague disapproval"
20:37:53 <olsner> https://github.com/ghc/ghc/commit/5bda0d08d8fec86433917b65a93836d2372a5b5c
20:38:02 <olsner> it only says ghci though
20:39:44 <int-e> olsner: I misdiagnosed the problem anyway
20:42:33 <int-e> In any case it'd be MonoLocalBinds I think. But it wasn't :)
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20:56:13 <boily> ~eval 2 ** 8 * 3 ** 2
20:57:05 <olsner> ~eval 2 ** 2 ** 3 * 3 ** 2
20:57:51 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0 -> b0]'
20:57:51 <lambdabot> with actual type `(a1 -> b1) -> [a1] -> [b1]'
20:57:51 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `map', namely `map'
20:57:52 <boily> how do you define a function in lambdabot again?
20:57:57 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
20:58:02 <FreeFull> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
20:58:03 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2) => f (a -> b) -> f (f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b))
20:58:22 <FreeFull> At some point adding more fmaps loops you around to an earlier state
20:58:39 <int-e> @define boily = 42
20:58:46 <int-e> it seems that works, too
20:59:02 <boily> int-e: I thought I mentioned that I wasn't to be redefined, you fiendish scalliwag.
20:59:29 <boily> @let factorMap = fromList . map (head &&& length) . group . primeFactors
20:59:30 <lambdabot> `IM.fromList' (imported from Data.IntMap),
20:59:30 <lambdabot> `M.fromList' (imported from Data.Map),
20:59:37 <boily> @let factorMap = M.fromList . map (head &&& length) . group . primeFactors
20:59:38 <lambdabot> .L.hs:143:50: Not in scope: `primeFactors'
20:59:56 <FreeFull> @let import Data.Numbers.Primes
20:59:56 <lambdabot> Failed to load interface for `Data.Numbers.Primes'
20:59:57 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant Data.Number.Fixed (from numbers-3000.2.0.0)
20:59:57 <lambdabot> Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
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22:37:51 <oerjan> <boily> `run echo 'A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.' >wisdom/thausiblee <-- <public_announcement> that could have been done with `learn</public_announcement>
22:39:05 <ion> `learn</public_announcement>
22:39:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/learn</public_announcement>: No such file or directory
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23:00:10 <oerjan> <fizzie> Curiously enough, the phase of the moon turned out -- completely by coincidence [...] <-- surely that particular phase has the effect of making you want to photograph the moon hth
23:02:54 <oerjan> @tell boily `learn now removes english articles hth
23:03:33 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
23:03:40 <oerjan> also one hungarian one
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23:09:31 <oerjan> <oklopol> it seems unlikely that people find out that you're using the lasers you buy to check for retroreflectors and rig them to shoot lasers that retroreflect from stone if they are being shot toward the moon
23:10:17 <oerjan> i'd say the idea someone can make lasers that retroreflect from a non-manmade substance is a conspiracy in itself.
23:21:12 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
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23:24:00 <HackEgo> 1166) <fungot> I'm Robert Fnord. Here, take a piece of freenode furniture.
23:24:10 * oerjan cannot remember a number for five seconds
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23:25:04 <FireFly> `qoteadd <oerjan> `quote 1146 <HackEgo> 1146) <oerjan> OKAY
23:25:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qoteadd: not found
23:25:07 <HackEgo> *poof* <fungot> I'm Robert Fnord. Here, take a piece of freenode furniture.
23:25:28 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> boily: i'm robert fnord. here take a piece of freenode furniture
23:25:29 <fungot> oerjan: i never understood method decorators... monkey prostates. the problem is of course true. and yet it does
23:25:30 <HackEgo> 1166) <fungot> boily: i'm robert fnord. here take a piece of freenode furniture
23:25:45 * oerjan swats olsner for fake quoting -----###
23:26:07 <fungot> FireFly: sorry. seems the changes i propose:
23:28:14 <ion> `addquote * oerjan loves olsner to fake quoting <3<3<3<3
23:30:06 <FireFly> `addquote <oerjan> `quote 1146 <HackEgo> 1146) <oerjan> OKAY
23:30:08 <HackEgo> 1167) <oerjan> `quote 1146 <HackEgo> 1146) <oerjan> OKAY
23:30:24 <FireFly> I have a feeling that one won't stay for too long
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00:02:20 <Sgeo> http://rifers.org/03_numberguess/src/
00:02:37 <Sgeo> Exactly what I want to see when I click to browse example source code for a web framework
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00:22:12 <Sgeo> It's trying to translate a cool concept to an enterprisey language
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01:05:33 <oerjan> scott aaronson sarcasts on science journalism (scroll to the MAGIC 8-BALL) http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1679
01:21:00 <Bike> funnily enough i saw him extensively quoted in some pop sci today
01:21:31 <Taneb> Help I am game programming in Haskell
01:21:32 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/99581
01:21:38 <Bike> fizzie: i've been watching the status of parallel matlab jobs through windows task manager.
01:22:06 <oerjan> Bike: well he was quoted in the thing he's blogging about, too
01:23:08 <Bike> the one i read was a basic "holy shit, halting problem!" thing
01:23:58 <Taneb> just noticed I've been writing my lambdas backwards
01:24:28 <Bike> what was the end quote. something like "it's good to know electronic brains can't be perfect"
01:25:10 <nooodl> Taneb: what's with the "fmap Right"s
01:26:05 <Taneb> nooodl, in theory I could instead do a Left thingy which would be treated as a sort of "missing value" error by netwire
01:32:41 <shachaf> kmc: i should figure out how people solve yao's millionaire problem
01:48:03 <Sgeo> "Smokers will need to fetch an older copy of cigarettes.txt from CVS after October 1st "
01:48:20 <kmc> oh i get it
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02:21:23 <coppro> elliott__: you're no help
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02:57:09 <Sgeo> data Stream b = SCons (b, Stream b)
02:57:28 <Sgeo> Rather than two arguments to SCons?
03:02:41 <Sgeo> Ok, fine, makes sense
03:16:16 <Sgeo> "Note that this has nothing to do with execution. printFibN does not execute a print statement. No more than writing printFibN on a piece of paper will cause it to magically evaluate."
03:16:42 <Sgeo> Wonder if that will catch on as a description
03:17:02 <Bike> sounds like if it did, that would be some damn useful paper, though
03:32:19 <quintopia> does anyone remember which language of ais523 is the one where there's like a table of memory cells and the only instruction is like copy the contents of that one to this one and jump to that other one?
03:33:46 <quintopia> Bike: lol at that quote. "perfect" meaning "omniscient" I guess?
03:34:25 <Bike> something silly
03:35:44 <Bike> "By slaying the mythical loop snooper, Turing taught us that there are fundamental limits to what computers can do. We all have our limits, and in a way it's comforting to know that the artificial brains that we create will always have theirs too."
03:36:00 <Bike> [whatever] brain is such a shitty word for computers, grr
03:43:51 <quintopia> "let's call the subset of computers which aren't brains [blah] brains! so the all computers are brains, yay!"
03:44:23 <quintopia> it's okay as long as [blah] is Matryoshka
03:45:42 <Bike> only because those are so sci-fi it doesn't matter.
03:47:26 <quintopia> here's my best reword: "it's good to know that things which are made out of stuff in this universe will always be incapable of doing things which are impossible in this universe."
03:52:39 <Sgeo> Oh no am I going to start watching these now?
03:52:41 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?annotation_id=annotation_3883136257&feature=iv&list=PL4NL9i-Fu15hhYGB-d0hmSWD1fcIvLvn1&src_vid=oOGJQD0WXkk
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04:18:17 <Sgeo> kmc: a paper on occurence typing: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/icfp10-thf.pdf
04:21:52 <Sgeo> Although really, the use of such predicates often makes me uncomfortable
04:22:00 <Sgeo> Like it indicates someone likely doing something silly
04:32:22 <Bike> silly... or extraordinary?
04:34:38 <kmc> the goggles do nothing
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05:39:57 <Bike> it doesn't show on this term, i really should fix this stupid thing
05:40:02 <Bike> by which i mean use something else.
05:42:38 <kmc> how do you do that again
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05:46:32 <kmc> it's too bad you can't adjust the phase
05:48:00 <Bike> there's probably some term somewhere that let you feed analog functions to the monitorssss
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07:32:01 <fizzie> I wanted to see the VISIBILITY, it is very FOGGY here.
07:36:45 <fizzie> EFHK 070720Z 12005KT 0200 R04R/0550N R15/0375N R22L/0550N R04L/0500N FZFG VV001 M03/M03 Q1003 TEMPO 0600
07:38:21 <quintopia> you can ask dirac for the weather. dirac is online usually and prints human-readable weather.
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07:51:41 * kmc !important;
07:52:52 <fizzie> There's just something about them METARs.
07:54:39 <Sgeo> Huh. Amazon has a Kindle edition of The Reasoned Schemer, but B&N doesn't have an epub version
07:54:53 <Sgeo> Is that going to be a trend, or is that just me rationalizing having gotten a Kindle?
07:55:29 <HackEgo> 994) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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08:18:01 <fizzie> "make: stat: GNUmakefile: Transport endpoint is not connected" huh
08:18:18 <fizzie> Oh, it's just a disconnected sshfs thing, never mind.
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10:42:51 <quintopia> ais523: I just found a ResPlicate sequence that goes 12850 cycles before deleting itself! how are you?
10:43:04 <ais523> I'm not doing great, but I'll survive
10:43:11 <ais523> and it's an interesting language
10:43:53 <ais523> I haven't "broken" it in terms of TCness yet, although my first thoughts are a) try to avoid the same queue element being used for both a length and a repeat count if possible, b) try to simulate a tag system
10:45:15 <quintopia> ais523: well that first condition is easy to meet. just make sure all the odd numbered elements of the sequence are even numbers :)
10:45:31 <ais523> quintopia: yep, that's why I thought of it
10:45:31 <quintopia> (and that there is an even number of numbers in the sequence)
10:45:37 <ais523> it seems trivial and make reasoning about the language much easier
10:46:09 <quintopia> but it seems to do much more interesting things when you let them be odd :P
10:52:59 <quintopia> ais523: besides yourself, what's your short list of "esolang experts"
10:53:29 <ais523> quintopia: oerjan's highest on the list, he's better at it than I am
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10:54:07 <quintopia> nooodl: I improved your ResPlicate interpreter and am having so much fun I can't go to sleep
10:54:47 <quintopia> ais523: really? I would have had a tough time deciding between you two. And maybe John Conway also.
10:55:01 <nooodl> fwiw i think Resplicate looks better than ResPlicate
10:55:52 <ais523> hm, the problem with trying to program in ResPlicate is that you don't have any external source of data, copying is the /only/ way to make the string longer
10:56:48 <quintopia> yes. if you want a number in there, you better start with it in there.
10:57:34 <quintopia> and you have to keep it in there too. that's even harder.
10:58:50 <quintopia> nooodl: the sequence family 6 3 10 1 6 2 2k+1 1 is amaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing. try it!
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11:30:45 <nooodl> quintopia: i don't see the pattern i think
11:41:23 <quintopia> nooodl: there's no pattern! that's what's so great! most of them delete themselves, some of them become all-twos, and a few grow.
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12:13:31 <oerjan> <Bike> sounds like if it did, that would be some damn useful paper, though <-- note to future logreaders: back when this was written, most paper was _not_ ... heck we haven't even decided what to call it yet.
12:14:20 <oerjan> also, google and wikipedia were most unhelpful.
12:14:38 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's just called smart paper.
12:14:50 <ais523> quintopia: I have a plan for proving resplicate TC already, not sure if it works or not though
12:14:56 <oerjan> future logreaders: see fizzie ^
12:15:13 <fizzie> (Source: Neal Stephenson, "The Diamond Age".)
12:16:17 <quintopia> ais523: well i could already visualize how a tag system might be shaped, but it wasn't readily apparent how to do some parts of it
12:16:24 <quintopia> ais523: i'm ready to hear what you've got
12:16:31 <ais523> I'm not ready to explain it yet though
12:17:06 <quintopia> okay i'll go back to not sleeping and reading about bytebeat
12:17:28 <ais523> one of the things I'm bad at is converting thoughts into a medium that other people can understand
12:17:37 <ais523> I can normally manage it eventually, but it takes a while
12:18:07 <oerjan> ais523: it seems similar to Self BCT? although with the ability to handle somewhat larger sequences in one step.
12:18:25 <ais523> oerjan: not really, doesn't self BCT have two pointers?
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12:40:48 <oerjan> quintopia: i cannot compete with conway, i've fought him and lost.
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12:49:56 <fizzie> "Authors retain the right to use the accepted author manuscript for personal use, internal institutional use and for permitted scholarly posting provided that these are not for purposes of commercial use or systematic distribution." "Systematic distribution means: policies or other mechanisms designed to aggregate and openly disseminate, or to substitute for journal-provided services --"
12:51:55 <Jafet> Is this why faculty websites always look unsystematic
12:53:16 <fizzie> Also any "Institutional, funding body or government manuscript posting policies or mandates that aim to aggregate and openly distribute the work by its researchers or funded researchers", no matter how haphazardly implemented, count as "systematic distribution".
12:54:19 <Jafet> researchers or funded researchers
12:54:39 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed that too.
12:57:05 <fizzie> I guess it could imply that it considers policies that apply to researchers, or policies that apply to funded researchers. (As a corollary, a policy that applies to "all researchers except this one guy" would then not be systematic distribution.)
12:59:46 <fizzie> (The "loophole" person, whose work would not be included, could be an annually changing position.)
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13:22:27 <boily> good unmechanical morning!
13:22:37 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14h 19m 41s ago: `learn now removes english articles hth
13:23:17 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you do an AI-complete fact database thing?
13:23:18 <fungot> fizzie: this is too stupid to talk to my roommate this fall who's into public sex, lose any aesthetic sense as it is
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13:24:41 <boily> it's... actually a sensible reason.
13:25:03 <boily> I guess even bots can be affected by public sexing roommates.
13:26:06 <fizzie> I'm a bit puzzled about it, though, since fungot's hardware is in our apartment, and we're not into public sex at all.
13:26:06 <fungot> fizzie: yes. but not planning writing actually.)) be ()
13:28:01 <boily> fizzie: we're not in the Fall season yet. maybe fungot's planning to go study abroad or something?
13:28:01 <fungot> boily: when placed on each
13:28:11 <boily> fungot: on each what?
13:28:11 <fungot> boily: finally a sane network topology with the firewall physically between local network and internet... no esoteric)
13:28:39 <boily> fizzie: that confirms my theory. he's going to MIT to study network topologies between firewalls.
13:29:07 <fizzie> boily: Have you been sending fake student exchange applications again?
13:29:14 <fungot> fizzie: something like fnord should execute the handler, so it would be
13:32:55 <boily> incidentally, me neither. I didn't send fake student exchange applications again.
13:33:13 <boily> fungot: nothing is like fnord.
13:33:13 <fungot> boily: what is your native language?)... that made it difficult.
13:33:22 <boily> fungot: French. I know it makes everything difficult.
13:33:23 <fungot> boily: last time what? scheme hardly has any guterals, although the universities now have changed to an ascii value.
13:33:42 <boily> uhm. what is a guteral, and its ASCII value?
13:33:52 <oerjan> it's probably a misspelling of guttural
13:34:07 <oerjan> and indeed scheme has none
13:37:59 <fizzie> "Gutenberg" would be a good unit for amount of written text.
13:38:16 * boily pharyngealizes C0 and C1 codes “FF US NUL GS OSC *cough*”
13:38:33 <fizzie> 1 Gutenberg equals the amount of material in Project Gutenberg. Er, except now that I think of it, it's not a very stable unit.
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13:58:37 <boily> int-e: did you accidentaly lambdabot?
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14:52:11 <FireFly> So I hear fungot's going abroad
14:52:11 <fungot> FireFly: are you even asking me this? snakes fnord with human evolution? somewhere in between them
14:52:56 <FireFly> Very knowledgeable in biology, I hear
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14:55:55 <Johnnie> A friend of mine told me today that I am now in the Turing tarpit. I had to google that up to realize that I'm on the right track with SPAM/1 ^__^
14:55:58 <HackEgo> utkarsh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:56:20 <boily> Jellohnnie! good tarpitual morning!
14:56:21 <ais523> Johnnie: tarpits are a large category of esolangs
14:56:26 <boily> @localtime Johnnie
14:56:27 <lambdabot> Local time for Johnnie is Fri Feb 07 09:59:36 2014
14:56:40 <ais523> and one of the categories that more commonly produces interesting research
14:56:45 <Johnnie> I had forgotten it's a global community.
14:57:06 <Johnnie> Had no idea, but I'm gathering this is a really good thing.
14:57:10 <boily> Johnnie: I think I can ask you the The Question: what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
14:58:27 <ais523> boily: you typoed The Question
14:58:40 <ais523> not that it's an interesting question, IMO
14:59:14 <ais523> Johnnie: no, you did nothing wrong
14:59:23 <ais523> this is just a stupid meme that I'd love it if it had died ages ago
14:59:33 <Johnnie> I never thought I did, ais523. I'm actually quite pleased. ^__^
14:59:37 <elliott__> ais523: it's actually meant to be body weigh
14:59:39 <ais523> boily: when this channel is discussing esolangs, please discuss esolangs :_)
14:59:52 <ais523> elliott__: what's with the double underscore these days?
15:00:02 <ais523> I'm not worried about impersonation because I can tell it's you in two lines
15:00:08 <ais523> but I am a little confused
15:00:25 <Johnnie> My language, SPAM/1 is about technologies that died ages ago ^__^
15:00:25 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to elliott_________.
15:00:40 <Johnnie> As for my coords: 32°47′00″N 79°56′00″W
15:03:10 <Johnnie> And body weigh....under two bags of cement.
15:04:00 <Johnnie> (using the hundredweight measurement)
15:06:10 <oerjan> that's far too accurate for me _not_ to paste into google maps.
15:06:28 <ais523> it's only accurate to the nearest minute
15:06:43 <Johnnie> That's okay, I snatched it off of Wikipedia.
15:07:07 <oerjan> ais523: well it's pretty close to a college...
15:08:51 <Johnnie> I'd thought Wikipedia would use coords close to the Harbour.
15:09:16 <ais523> Wikipedia probably just rounded to the nearest minute
15:09:34 <oerjan> how much _is_ a minute anyway.
15:09:36 <ais523> link for me to click on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ResPlicate
15:09:50 <ais523> oerjan: 1/(60*360) of the Earth's circumference
15:10:30 <ais523> at any meridian, it equals one nautical mile exactly
15:10:50 <fizzie> A man wanted to talk to me about Jesus, at the bus stop in front of the CS building. That was *so* un-Finnish.
15:10:53 <ais523> Wikipedia says 1852m by definition
15:12:03 <oerjan> i'd say the harbour is on the border of plausible rounding range
15:12:25 <Johnnie> In other words: close enough.
15:13:51 <fizzie> Strangeish to put the seconds in after rounding to minutes, but maybe it's convention.
15:13:57 <boily> ais523: it's not a typo. it's traditionnal to write “weigh”.
15:14:18 <ais523> boily: are you actively trying to drive me from the channel agin?
15:14:36 <Johnnie> I think I figured out the goal for the Wiki. I have no intention of implementing SPAM. But I want to document it enoough that implementation is entirely possible.
15:14:41 <oerjan> "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, even the Finnish, [...]"
15:14:51 <Johnnie> ...enoough?....too many 'o's.
15:15:24 <boily> ais523: sorry, I was in a meeting, and I answered before seeing your other reply. I will esolang when esolanging is happening.
15:19:25 <oerjan> hm i'm wondering how close resPlicate can emulate something Fueue-like, if you make sure all blocks have "statically" known lengths and you avoid explicit swapping (but maybe it can be simulated, like in underload)
15:20:00 <ais523> I'm still thinking about ResPlicate
15:20:58 <oerjan> it's the most minimalistic queue language we've had so far, i think
15:21:06 <ais523> I have an idea of creating a tag system, using a dictionary of all necessary rule-pieces that gets copied around (as multiple copies) at regular intervals so that the rule-pieces can be extracted from it
15:21:23 <ais523> and hmm, it sort-of competes with http://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight (and cyclic tag) for the title of "minimalistic queue-language"
15:23:09 <oerjan> um it has no program/data separation, which i think is a big boost
15:23:37 <Johnnie> The Norweigans ruled Britian under Cnut the Great and Sweyn Forkbeard...maybe the Finnish can rule the world under esolangs?
15:24:23 <Johnnie> Again, I was reading Wikipedia.
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15:30:59 <Johnnie> ...fake diamonds that are glued to eyes of plastic cows?....I noticed that just now. XD
15:33:04 <Johnnie> Okay. I'm off. See everyone later. Have a good weekend
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15:43:05 <ais523> oerjan: program/data separation normally makes things easier rather than harder, but maybe not
15:44:13 <oerjan> ais523: yes of course, but it makes it less minimalistic.
15:44:56 <ais523> I mean, my definition of "minimalistic" is "easy to implement in a range of ridiculously limited languages"
15:53:55 <oerjan> ...i think we shall have to agree to disagree :P
15:54:18 <oerjan> although that is of course useful too
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16:11:00 <stalem> when every idea of a language has been invented, reinvented, mangled, modified and regurgitated; what left is there to do? create a new paradigm?
16:13:02 <shikhin> Life's worthless, you mean to say?
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16:17:01 <ais523> stalem: creating new paradigms is what I really want to do
16:17:21 <ais523> about the best I've managed in that direction is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload (which turned out to be pre-existing but niche)
16:18:13 <boily> we live in a world were even crab-based computing exists. it's hard to come up with something new.
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16:18:59 <stalem> ah yeah i've read that page multiple times. i bet it's a headache creating new paradigms, it's hard enough finding a good idea for a language. not to mention the amount of paradigms are getting to vast the possibilities must be getting drained
16:19:14 <stalem> what? crab-based computer? like live crabs?
16:19:30 <boily> stalem: http://techland.time.com/2012/04/18/crab-computing-the-future-of-computers-powered-by-crabs-wait-what/
16:19:41 <boily> elliott_________: it's getting uneasier.
16:19:47 <stalem> "the future of computers" lol
16:20:13 <boily> shellokhin. long time no see!
16:20:35 <shikhin> boily: Yeah, lost my auto-join list and then never added this channel back :-)
16:20:35 <stalem> an analog boid computer using crabs haha
16:21:09 <shikhin> boily: But, recently, got involved with some fun stuff involing a couple of norttis and a couple of esoteric languages, so got back here.
16:21:23 <boily> there are multiples norttis???
16:21:34 <boily> fungot: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
16:21:34 <fungot> boily: are you looking for? fnord/ fnord/ fnord
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16:53:33 <newsham> anyone play with microcorruption.com ?
16:56:18 <b_jonas> is there an english word similar to "want" or "need" that takes both a noun without preposition or a verb without "to"? or can that not exist because it would cause ambiguities between noun and verb?
16:57:31 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, I remember studying this sort of thing for grammartree
16:58:00 <b_jonas> it needn't be a single word, it can be a phrase
16:58:08 <newsham> "I want food" "I need food" works without preposition, but I think you need the "to" for verbs to make it "infinitive"
16:58:35 <ais523> there are verbs like "should" that don't take "to"
16:58:52 <b_jonas> newsham: yes, after a verbs like that you usually need either a to-infinitive or gerund
16:58:52 <ais523> but they tend not to work with nouns
16:59:38 <newsham> it means "can I have" in cat talk
16:59:54 <ais523> incidentally, verbs that appear in the portion of NetHack I converted to grammartree that take verbs without infinitives: can, had better, should, may
17:00:05 <b_jonas> yes, but what form of verb, as in "I can has go out" or "I can has to go out" or "I can has going out"
17:00:17 <ais523> and some verbs take participles, or possibly gerunds: stop, like, see
17:00:26 <ais523> and "can has" is lolcat speak, not actual English
17:00:39 <ais523> thus it doesn't obey normal grammar rules
17:00:43 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it wouldn't suit me because of that, I was wondering
17:00:48 <b_jonas> I'll check the lolcat bible
17:00:50 <ais523> and in fact the grammar is mostly made up on the pot
17:01:06 <b_jonas> there is some sort of consistency
17:01:23 <b_jonas> see http://lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=How_to_speak_lolcat and similar
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17:03:42 <nooodl> ais523: whatever happened to that
17:04:08 <ais523> nooodl: we put it on hold because it was taking up all our time, we're planning to reintroduce it later but a bit at a time
17:04:21 <ais523> like originally reserve it for the bits that benefit the most
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17:13:34 <Bike> http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7451e31a-8f90-11e3-9cb0-00144feab7de.html wack, yo
17:14:42 <ion> It requires registration.
17:14:49 <FireFly> That thing wants me to sign up to read the article
17:14:51 <ion> to be able to read 8 articles per month
17:15:24 <FireFly> and they don't seem to do the nice thing of sending the webpage with an overlay covering the actual content
17:15:29 <Bike> ibm's thinking of selling their semiconductor division
17:17:28 <int-e> <boily> int-e: did you accidentaly lambdabot?
17:18:50 <int-e> it just lost its connection to the server (aka ping timeout)
17:24:03 <Taneb> Aaaah what should I have for dinner
17:24:07 <Taneb> Something quick to cook preferably
17:24:36 <Taneb> Also I accidentally learnt pandoc when I wanted to learn rust
17:24:39 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/Fibs.pdf
17:24:56 <Bike> common mistake
17:25:21 <Bike> make a turkey. here's an instructional video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4FSew0vmUQ
17:26:16 <Bike> british thanksgiving is coming up, right
17:26:36 <ais523> I don't think Britain /has/ a Thankgiving
17:27:49 <Bike> what a rude thing to say.
17:28:57 <Taneb> btw if anyone wants to critique the rust code in that pdf feel free to
17:31:19 <Taneb> Also I still don't know what to have for dinner
17:36:49 <ais523> Taneb: recently I've mostly been combining some sort of prepackaged chicken with some sort of prepackaged salad with some sort of prepackaged carbohydrate
17:36:58 <ais523> you can get a lot of variations out of that, and it's pretty fast
17:37:28 <Taneb> ais523, are the west midlands 300 years into the future?
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17:43:24 <ais523> Taneb: well a chicken salad sandwich is all three of those at once
17:43:35 <ais523> so it's not massively difficult to achieve
17:43:43 <ais523> but you can't live on /only/ those
17:47:56 <FireFly> this private-use character renders funnily in my font: ''
17:48:25 <ais523> in this font it looks like a solid circle
17:49:12 <FireFly> For me it's a bunch of waves approx. 12 characters wide, which looks kind-of odd in a terminal
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18:02:36 <fizzie> Though if I open the logs in a browser, it looks like... well, it looks like a very small uppercase A, on top of which (as a diacritic) there's a thing that looks vaguely like a small lambda.
18:03:43 <fizzie> Zooming in reveals that the diacritic is instead a caret and a grave accent, stacked vertically, with the grave on top.
18:06:47 <ais523> that's a pretty nice letter
18:08:38 <fizzie> Is there a way in Unicode to say that "this following stack of combining characters should go vertically in this order, instead of being all on top of each other"?
18:11:55 <fizzie> Apparently there's a character called Combining Grapheme Joiner, which can be used to block reordering of combining characters during normalization ("For example, -- [as] one way to maintain distinction between differently ordered sequences of certain Hebrew accents and marks"), but that's a different thing.
18:15:22 <fizzie> And double diacritics (two-character ones, that is) will float over any diacritic marks of the participating two characters, but that's also different.
18:17:00 <fizzie> And you can put other diacritics on top of a double diacritic by following the double diacritic with the CGJ and a diacritic, but that's still not quite it.
18:32:24 <boily> back from lunch, and it diacriticise.
18:32:33 <boily> (it also winds and snows outside. stupid weather.)
18:32:40 <metasepia> CYUL 071800Z 23021G28KT 15SM DRSN OVC035 M08/M13 A3011 RMK SC8 SLP197
18:32:52 <metasepia> EFHK 071820Z 13010KT 0800 R04R/P1500U R15/0900N R22L/P1500U R04L/P1500U FG VV002 00/00 Q1002 NOSIG
18:33:03 <fizzie> Our FZFG has turned to plain old FG.
18:33:42 <fizzie> It's been a very foggy day, however.
18:34:05 <boily> you're also suffering from 0800 and chronic VV002, it seems.
18:34:24 <fizzie> There was a note in the news that there's been delays at EFHK.
18:34:32 <boily> (ground visibility: 800 m or 1/2 mi, vertical visibility 20')
18:34:46 <fizzie> 20' sounds like not a much.
18:35:40 <boily> I'm checking the units. I'm currently doubting it.
18:36:40 <boily> 200'. missed a magnitude there.
18:37:24 <metasepia> ESSA 071820Z 13014KT 5000 -RA OVC006 02/01 Q0990 R01L/29//95 R08/29//95 R01R/29//95 TEMPO 4000 -RA
18:42:09 <FireFly> I wonder why there's two -RN's there
18:42:39 <boily> the first is a regular -RA, the second is a TEMPOrary change.
18:43:42 <boily> so you have -RA, and light -RA with 30% lest fat.
18:43:45 <FireFly> Do you call people who read METARs METARologists?
18:44:14 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
18:45:00 <boily> `learn boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist.
18:46:30 <FireFly> A broterhood scheme, you say
18:46:42 <boily> with Pouti and Roujo.
18:47:34 <metasepia> BIRK 071800Z 01011KT 9999 FEW020 02/M01 Q0978
18:49:34 <boily> FireFly: visiting iceland?
18:49:47 <FireFly> Nope, just curious about the weather there
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19:01:27 <kmc> TIL the Perl CGI module contains some kind of wacky (and not very good) DSL for outputting HTML code (rather, XHTML 1.0 only)
19:02:24 <kmc> I updated my house's accounting system (a venerable Perl script) to output nicer-looking Bootstrap-y HTML
19:04:50 <b_jonas> what's this fascination with Bootstrap by everyone?
19:05:18 <kmc> it just makes a page look decent with very little effort
19:05:35 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "look decent"?
19:05:43 <kmc> more readable, more pleasing to the eye
19:05:57 <b_jonas> is it like shiny stuff marketing asks for?
19:06:02 <b_jonas> aren't you doing this page for yourself?
19:06:05 <kmc> what crawled up your ass
19:06:13 <kmc> U CARE AESTHETICS U NO REAL PROGRAMR
19:06:44 <b_jonas> sorry, I don't mean to be so negative, there is probably something bootstrap does well, I just don't know it and I'd like to find out what it is
19:06:54 <b_jonas> "make it nice" doesn't seem like something that would make you use it alone
19:07:15 <kmc> b_jonas: I'm not a web designer so I can't describe specifically the aspects which make it good design, but I appreciate the result
19:07:25 <kmc> definitely a few things like better fonts and good spacing are obvious
19:07:30 <boily> bootstrap has a 12-column grid. granted, nearly all starting bases have them, but bootstrap does some aggressive marketing.
19:07:48 <kmc> I'm a programmer and so I delegate design things to professional designers, and importing Bootstrap is a no-effort way to do that for small personal projects
19:07:51 <kmc> so why not do it?
19:08:05 <kmc> do I need a super strong reason to use it? it's one line of HTML
19:08:10 <b_jonas> ok, if that's all it's probably not something made for me
19:08:37 <kmc> another specific thing it does that's useful in this context (accounting) is the thing where alternating rows of a table are shaded differently
19:08:43 <kmc> and when you hover over a row it's shaded differently still
19:08:58 <b_jonas> kmc: ok, now that's something specific I can understand
19:09:18 <b_jonas> even if it's just like a few lines of css, but yes, it's good that a framework handles taht
19:09:54 <b_jonas> yeah, the problem is probably that I don't like "frameworks" in general
19:09:59 <FireFly> well, if you can get something with a few fancy flashy gradients and buttons and stuff with little effort, I don't see why not
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19:10:43 <b_jonas> FireFly: because I don't want fancy gradients. I'm old school in typography and believe that text should be put on a uniform colored background only.
19:11:16 <kmc> it doesn't do fancy flashy gradients
19:11:30 <kmc> it's a very simple clean design
19:11:34 <kmc> "flat design" is the fad now so it's even simpler
19:11:48 <b_jonas> that's also why I don't understand people using transparent windows, esp transparent menus and transparent terminal windows, or terminal windows with backgrounds
19:11:53 <kmc> http://getbootstrap.com/css/ http://getbootstrap.com/components/
19:12:14 <b_jonas> but I admit that I also don't like frameworks in general
19:13:42 <ion> Bootstrap also makes responsive layouts easy and you can be p. sure that it works everywhere without testing it everywhere yourself.
19:14:07 <boily> ion: <boily> I like columns.
19:14:53 <ion> boily: Me too, except when using a very narrow display.
19:15:33 <kmc> b_jonas: I do the minimal terminals, minimal WM thing too
19:15:39 <kmc> b_jonas: however the default unstyled HTML isn't "minimal"
19:15:46 <kmc> it uses a fucking serif font
19:15:55 <kmc> in many respects bootstrap'd HTML looks simpler and cleaner
19:16:04 <kmc> it's not about fancy gradients and impressing marketing
19:16:33 <b_jonas> kmc: as for that, I do like serif fonts, but I decide about that in my browser settings.
19:16:37 <kmc> if "design" is such a tainted word to your ultra programmer sensibilities then call it "information presentation engineering" or whatever
19:16:46 <boily> imho, it's very hard to achieve a nice formatting with serif fonts on a retro-lit display.
19:17:09 <kmc> anyway i got to go
19:17:11 <b_jonas> sometimes I make my browser forcibly override fonts in all html to a good serif font instead of letting browsers choose, but then I usually turn it back eventually except for some bad websites
19:17:30 <boily> b_jonas: what are your favourite serif fonts?
19:17:47 <b_jonas> boily: maybe it is if you're using small font sizes. I prefer large sizes
19:18:43 <b_jonas> boily: sadly I don't really have any font I'm completely satisfied with. I would eventually like to design my own fonts, in like the next few decades, but for now I only have a good bitmap terminal font I've drawn.
19:19:02 <b_jonas> in browser I usually use either bitstream vera serif or times
19:19:24 <boily> I dislike times. I'm more of a palatino guy.
19:20:18 <boily> a nice example of serifed text → http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116443/new-york-citys-french-dual-language-programs-are-mostly-pointless
19:20:32 <boily> (they use ‘Publico Text’)
19:20:53 <b_jonas> hmm, actually I think I do currently have the font forced on all websites in this browser
19:33:59 <FireFly> That reminds me, I haven't read ILT in a long time
19:34:19 <FireFly> http://ilovetypography.com/ that is
19:40:45 <quintopia> boily: 'Thanks, boily! Thoily!' reads much better than 'Thanks User:Boily, Thoily!'. Here's one case where policy gets in the way of style. almost makes me want to delinkify it.
19:42:59 <boily> b_jonas: we have bots for everything!
19:43:35 -!- evalj has joined.
19:44:11 <HackEgo> evalj: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:53:26 <quintopia> b_jonas: he did. then ais523 un-pipelinked due to wiki policy.
19:54:27 <quintopia> is it just me or did that last relcome say 'Forcthe'
19:54:41 <boily> quintopia: it is you. fnord.
19:55:03 <quintopia> oh the extra c disappeared when you spoke
19:55:46 <quintopia> boily: have you invented yucca yet?
19:56:47 <boily> not yet, not yet. as I said some time ago, I need to have a “fit of a stroke” of inspiration.
19:56:57 <b_jonas> ] consonants =: a.{~,66 98+/I.#:31324125
19:57:18 <boily> and once again I `relcomed a bot.
19:57:45 <b_jonas> evalj has no problems with that
19:57:48 <boily> quintopia: in fact, there was a spark the other day when we were discussing undecideble sequences.
19:57:52 <evalj> b_jonas, pong: relcome
19:57:55 <quintopia> boily: you can't just wait for inspiration to smite you. you have to be thinking about esolangs in EVERY SPARE MOMENT
19:58:22 <quintopia> boily: i wasn't there. what was said?
19:58:22 <boily> quintopia: I like the feeling of beeing smitten. I stalk orc priests and hellwings.
19:58:39 <boily> quintopia: something about... eeeeh... I'm kinda having a blank here.
19:58:47 <boily> it's related to the halting problem.
20:00:13 <quintopia> boily: 'stalking orc priests' is the metaphorical equivalent of thinking about esolangs ALL THE TIME
20:00:56 <b_jonas> ] thanks=: 3 :'''Thanks, '',y,''. Th'',''.'',~y}.~i.&0 y e.consonants'
20:01:07 <boily> quintopia: trouvé! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_correspondence_problem
20:01:12 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, boily. Thoily.
20:01:37 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, Firefly. Thirefly.
20:01:51 <b_jonas> what should this do for names like 'kmc' though?
20:01:56 <boily> ] thanks 'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:01:56 <evalj> boily: |value error: thanks
20:01:56 <evalj> boily: | thanks'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:02:00 <evalj> FireFly: |value error: thanks
20:02:00 <evalj> FireFly: | thanks'kmc'
20:02:17 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
20:02:44 <b_jonas> boily: try 'evalj load: b_jonas,' or something first. stupid bot defaults to separate states per nick.
20:02:46 <boily> quintopia: I'm having ideas. something MALBOLGIAN.
20:02:47 <evalj> b_jonas, working session is b_jonas,#esoteric
20:03:02 <evalj> b_jonas, changed to ,#esoteric
20:03:03 <boily> evalj load: b_jonas
20:03:03 <evalj> boily, copied boily,#esoteric from boily,b_jonas
20:03:09 <boily> ] thanks 'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:03:09 <evalj> boily: |value error: thanks
20:03:09 <evalj> boily: | thanks'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:03:11 <b_jonas> boily: no, the comma is needed
20:03:18 <evalj> b_jonas, copied ,#esoteric from b_jonas,#esoteric
20:03:24 <boily> evalj load: b_jonas,
20:03:24 <evalj> boily, copied boily,#esoteric from b_jonas,#esoteric
20:03:27 <boily> ] thanks 'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:03:27 <evalj> boily: Thanks, aaaaa something with a vowel. Thaaaaa something with a vowel.
20:04:00 <quintopia> boily: whatever it is, we should be able to talk to metasepia in it
20:04:04 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, kmc. Th.
20:04:09 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, evalj. Thevalj.
20:04:31 <b_jonas> I think 'Thevalj.' is right. Isn't that sort of how pig latin works?
20:04:38 <b_jonas> I'm not good in these English language games
20:04:48 <boily> quintopia: of course. I'd like to have it understand aubergine also.
20:05:13 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_Game is more relevant than pig latin?
20:07:28 <FireFly> I think pig latin cuts up and reorders stuff
20:08:28 <b_jonas> I still don't know what it should give for a nick with only consonants
20:09:26 <boily> b_jonas: ↑ that's one possible solution.
20:10:38 <quintopia> boily: it should be WrItTeN In iN aUbErFGiNe
20:10:58 <quintopia> agh stupid lag echoing backspaces instead of doing them
20:11:31 <boily> you squished an ERF in my aubergine.
20:12:58 <quintopia> imagine it the way it looked to me before udp mangled it
20:14:59 <boily> spelling guterals won't help you there, you Infamous Squisher.
20:15:54 <boily> but I think I'm still going to go a step further than that. something more... arduous. tortuous. painful, like a stubbed toe on a rabid stove.
20:17:03 <quintopia> quintopia: make something that is a JOY to program in! even more than aubergine!
20:18:07 <boily> oh. so, pain inducing, but more like a quality hot sauce where you put your tongue on fire and your brains on dopamines?
20:19:58 <boily> (btw, is there yucca flavoured hot sauce out there? I'd buy a bottle of that if thausible.)
20:23:59 <quintopia> boily: http://honest-food.net/2011/06/15/eating-yucca-flowers/ there's this at least. your language should be like eating fried flowers with hot sauce
20:24:28 <boily> you are tempting me.
20:24:37 <b_jonas> quintopia: fire flowers? as in super mario ones?
20:24:57 <b_jonas> oens that make you powerful
20:25:25 <ais523> sadly, flowers tend not to shoot fire in real life
20:25:33 <ais523> there are plants with projectile weapons, though
20:26:24 <quintopia> ais523: have you broken resplicate yet. we're all waiting :P
20:27:01 <ais523> quintopia: no, I need to spend overnight I think
20:27:07 <ais523> I can't concentrate when I have Internet access
20:27:12 <ais523> this is why most of my BF Jousting is done offline
20:28:21 <b_jonas> it's not the flowers that shoot fire
20:28:32 <b_jonas> it's super mario that shoots fire after he takes a fire flower
20:30:32 <ais523> quintopia: careful not to destroy my laptop
20:30:48 <ais523> b_jonas: the flower itself shoots fire in Smash Bros.
20:31:27 <quintopia> ais523: i focused on isp hubs and cell towers
20:31:50 <ais523> you can ignore the cell towers, I don't have any sort of cellular equipment
20:32:00 <ais523> because then I wouldn't be able to concentrate /ever/ :-)
20:32:56 <b_jonas> well, mario games also have flower-like enemies that duck in and out of pipes, some of which shoot flowers, but I don't know what those are called
20:34:00 <b_jonas> gb super mario 2 has cannons instead of flowers only I think
20:34:21 <b_jonas> the cannons don't duck in and out of pipes
20:34:32 <boily> http://www.mariowiki.com/Piranha_Plant ?
20:34:43 <ais523> b_jonas: piranha plants I think
20:35:03 <ais523> also, the canons duck in and out of pipes on super mario land /1/
20:35:16 <ais523> /2/ has piranha plants, like in the NES and SNES games
20:35:25 <quintopia> and the fire shooters are venus firetraps
20:35:27 <ais523> err, didn't mean to italicise the2
20:35:46 <b_jonas> actually from that wiki http://www.mariowiki.com/Venus_Fire_Trap is the variant that shoots fire
20:36:22 <quintopia> hurray we are all good at googling
20:36:31 <ais523> hey, I'm doing this from memory
20:36:34 <b_jonas> but what's the black cat-head-like thing in gb super mario 1 that ducks from pipes and shoots horizontally moving bullets?
20:36:47 <ais523> as I said, learning about computer games I've never played is one of my hobbies
20:36:49 <b_jonas> I didn't google, I just clicked on a link from the Piranha Plant article
20:36:52 <ais523> (also, I have actually played SML1 and 2)
20:36:58 <ais523> (and completed both of them)
20:37:02 <b_jonas> I have played both, but sml2 much more
20:37:24 <b_jonas> I haven't completed sml2, but I've done all but the wario level
20:37:30 <b_jonas> the wario level turns out to be too difficult to me
20:37:40 <ais523> it's an order of magnitude harder than anything else in the game
20:37:40 * quintopia aims at birdo at ais523. "beat super mario sunshine or you get the egg!"
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20:38:04 <ais523> b_jonas: for quite a lot of it, memorization helps
20:38:21 <ais523> I also recommend grinding lives (or coins to buy lives) so that you don't have to go and refight all the bosses when you screw up
20:38:27 <b_jonas> the reason why sml2 is easy is that you get lots of retries because it's really easy to get lots of extra lives
20:38:51 <b_jonas> I continuously had over 90 lives when playing
20:38:59 <b_jonas> but the wario castle is long
20:39:09 <ais523> yes, long and no checkpoints
20:39:16 <ais523> and the first room is the second-hardest room in the castle
20:39:31 <b_jonas> I don't want to finish it anymore, but I would like to finish commander keen 2
20:39:36 <ais523> yeah, hard room first helps
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20:39:43 <ais523> the hardest room is like halfway through
20:39:57 <b_jonas> I've finished all other commander keen games (on easy level at least),
20:40:19 <boily> time to wipe and clean and nuke and polish and apply febreeze to my machine.
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20:40:42 <ais523> gah, that sentence is leaving me with cognitive dissonance
20:40:52 <b_jonas> and yeah, I could finish those too only because of infinite lives you get by saving after each level
20:40:56 <ais523> because half of it is ambiguous, and the other half gives mixed signals as to how to interpret it
20:41:04 <b_jonas> and, in the second series, in the middle of levels too
20:41:34 <b_jonas> I find ck5 the easiest by far
20:42:06 <ais523> I don't know much about the commander keen series
20:42:53 <b_jonas> ais523: what you should know is that ck1..3 is completely different from ck4..6.
20:43:09 <ais523> OK, this is not very much information because I don't know much about /either/ series
20:43:40 <b_jonas> ck1..3 has more different (and imo more difficult) controls (reacts slower, sort of like prince of persia), different graphics (smaller tiles), different rules (can't save during levels), different level design
20:44:51 <b_jonas> it's also older and targets earlier computers, so the graphics isn't as good (simpler tiles, horizontally scrolls only in multiplies of 8 pixels so it works on EGA or something, which makes it sometimes jerky).
20:44:52 <ais523> like, I don't even know what genre this is
20:46:24 <b_jonas> ais523: it's a 2D platformer where you control a single superhero, the young (8 year old or so) Commander Keen, who dies from a single hit but has a pistol he can use to kill or stun most enemies (limited number of shots in ck1..3)
20:46:40 <b_jonas> and a pogo he can use to jump bigger but more difficult to control than normal jumps
20:46:53 <b_jonas> http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/ is the wiki
20:47:21 <ais523> this doesn't really sound like the sort of game I enjoy
20:47:23 <b_jonas> also, ck4..6 has lots of secret areas, mostly invisible passages inside walls, but sometimes just places that are hard to reach
20:47:40 <nooodl> wow i'm playing commander keen as we speak
20:47:48 <b_jonas> I quite enjoy ck4..6, enjoy ck1..3 somewhat less but now I'd like to complete it
20:48:12 <FireFly> nooodl: the important question is, is it in {1..3} or {4..6}?
20:48:25 <FireFly> (NB. I've never played any CK game either)
20:48:56 <nooodl> i'm doing speedruns. very fun
20:49:13 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keen3Gameplay.png nice colour palette
20:50:04 <nooodl> i have to do a full 100% run at some point. ck5 speedrunning is aaaactive, ish, but everyone skips through the game with a glitch, even though the levels are very fun
20:50:46 <b_jonas> nooodl: by 100% run, you mean no death and no save?
20:50:56 <nooodl> i mean beat all the levels
20:51:04 <ais523> b_jonas: 100% means you achieve all the goals of the game
20:51:15 <ais523> although, for "beat all the levels", the normal terms are either "all levels" or "warpless"
20:51:25 <b_jonas> do you want to reach all the secret places in levels and the secret level and all the hidden items too, even the really difficult to get extra lives?
20:51:26 <ais523> warpless means you don't skip levels, all levels means you do all of them
20:51:36 <ais523> the difference mostly being when you have a choice of which level to take
20:51:39 <zzo38> It looks to be a standard PC color palette, I think
20:51:42 <ais523> in warpless, you can pick either of them
20:51:49 <ais523> in all levels, you do one, then go back and do the other
20:51:49 <nooodl> "warpless" and "all levels" differ one level in keen 5
20:51:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, some commander keen games have optional levels or choices between levels
20:52:14 <b_jonas> I try to go for all levels except the secret level, that's how I did ck{1,3,4,5,6} I think
20:52:31 <b_jonas> but I definitely cannot reach all the hidden places in all levels
20:52:46 <b_jonas> I want all levels because that's how I get the most fun from the game
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21:22:42 <kmc> `bienvenido yubisaylozada
21:22:43 <HackEgo> yubisaylozada: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:23:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/tervetuloa: No such file or directory
21:23:43 <kmc> `? tervetuloa
21:24:10 <shachaf> does FireFly speak Finnish maybe
21:24:31 <FireFly> Apart from 'ei saa peittä'
21:24:49 <fizzie> That should be "peittää".
21:25:16 <fizzie> "hizzie" sounds like some sort of a rap thing.
21:26:36 <kmc> fungotizzle
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21:27:13 <fungot> shachaf: but with " a" rant... it makes it harder for programs written in scheme
21:28:25 <FireFly> I'm not sure whether yubisaylozada understands english, or is just smiling and nodding along...
21:30:16 <shachaf> FireFly: you might say the same about fungot
21:30:17 <fungot> shachaf: try searching for " library procedure", on the same lines
21:30:19 <kmc> fungot: :)
21:30:19 <fungot> kmc: apparently it's also from greek platypous, but i'm confused about continuations being used in so many ways. for example,
21:30:30 <Bike> i was going to suggest we should mention not speaking spanish in the welcome but... there it is
21:30:39 <kmc> yeah somebody added that
21:30:44 <kmc> somebody++
21:30:56 <ion> “Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja {deployment}:n kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric irc.dal.net:ssä.)” Help, what’s deployment in Finnish?
21:31:42 <b_jonas> that bienvenido message has no color
21:32:05 <ion> käyttöönotto?
21:32:08 <kmc> `run bienvenido b_jonas | rainwords
21:32:09 <HackEgo> b_jonas: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki:
21:32:46 <yubisaylozada> b_jonas: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki:
21:32:46 <Bike> hey how do i set my locale
21:32:54 <Bike> seeing question marks in irc is sad
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21:33:50 <Bike> oh nevermind i found a wiki entry
21:34:36 <b_jonas> is that message in spanish or obfuscated spanish btw? it seems like it has too many long words.
21:34:37 <kmc> typeof(*p) *elliott_________ = (typeof(*p)*__force )ACCESS_ONCE(p);
21:35:01 <kmc> b_jonas: it's the consensus between Google Translate and my half remembered high school spanish knowledge
21:35:05 <kmc> plus some edits by others
21:35:23 <b_jonas> so you don't actually have spanish speakers here?
21:35:45 <kmc> I don't think we have any regulars who are fluent spanish speakers... but I'm not sure
21:36:01 <Bike> isn't that what "la mayoria de nosotros no hablamos espanol" means
21:36:52 <shachaf> ion: what does the ":n" mean
21:37:38 <ion> `learn welcome.fi Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
21:38:11 <ion> shachaf: It’s the inflection equivalent to “of ___”.
21:38:12 <shachaf> is that message in finnish or obfuscated finnish btw? it seems like it has too many long words.
21:38:36 <shachaf> ion: well, i specifically wondered about the ':'
21:38:37 <ion> Is there a difference?
21:39:07 <ion> shachaf: It’s how you attach an inflection into something that can’t be inflected.
21:39:38 <ion> 3 – kolme – three
21:39:46 <ion> 3:n – kolmen – of three / three’s
21:41:38 <ion> IBM:n – IBM’s
21:42:03 <ion> IBM:lle – for IBM
21:42:15 <Bike> why the fuck is there a keyboard layout called 'unicode'...
21:44:10 <kmc> you literally use a colon for that in finnish? weird/cool
21:44:17 <ion> fizzie: You should improve my translation, esp. for “deployment”, kthx
21:45:06 <ion> If you ever see someone write “IBM:s” in English shklee’s probably a native Finn.
21:45:08 <b_jonas> kmc: Hungarian uses a hyphen for that (and removes the period from before it if the word before ends in a period)
21:45:25 <fizzie> The colon+suffix thing gets used wrong in many ways.
21:45:31 <kmc> @tell Sgeo you might be interested in https://air.mozilla.org/incremental-parallelization-of-dynamic-languages/
21:45:34 <kmc> i haven't watched it yet
21:45:49 <b_jonas> as for the colon, someone has suggested to use a dot
21:46:10 <fizzie> E.g. it's "IBM:n" because that's read letter by letter, but "OPECin" because that's read as a word.
21:46:37 <kmc> paamayim nekudotayim
21:46:44 <b_jonas> as for the colon, someone has suggested to use a middle dot as a new punctuation mark in Hungarian to separate the subject (and words attached to that) from the predicate (and words attached from that) in ambiguous sentences,
21:46:56 <b_jonas> but I think we should use the colon for that actually.
21:47:01 <FireFly> Swedish also uses : for ordinals (1:a, 2:a, 3:e for 1st, 2nd, 3rd)
21:47:09 <kmc> fizzie: IBM:n and OPECin are correct usage or they're the wrong usage you object to?
21:47:11 <b_jonas> (this one doesn't make sense in English, where that kind of ambiguity doesn't come up)
21:47:33 <fizzie> kmc: They're both correct. But different, obviously, since the other doesn't have a colon.
21:48:22 <fizzie> ion: I can't really figure out a better word for deployment.
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21:48:57 <b_jonas> as for abuse, the blogs http://www.apostropheabuse.com/ and http://www.apostrophecatastrophes.com/ have lots of examples where apostrophe is used in English to attach plural "s" to words
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21:50:23 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:50:27 <ion> `run sed -re 's/\.es\>/.fi/g' <bin/bienvenido
21:50:28 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.fi"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.fi"; }
21:50:37 <Bike> i can feel the american sloughing off me
21:50:46 <ion> `run sed -re 's/\.es\>/.fi/g' <bin/bienvenido >bin/tervetuloa && chmod 755 bin/tervetuloa
21:51:08 <ion> `tervetuloa Adolf
21:51:09 <HackEgo> Adolf: welcome.fi Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
21:51:41 <b_jonas> s/welcome.fi // from taht output
21:51:56 <fizzie> It's in the wisdom file.
21:51:57 <ion> `sed -i -re 's/^welcome\.fi //' wisdom/welcome.fi
21:51:58 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
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21:52:23 <ion> `run sed -i -re 's/^welcome\.fi //' wisdom/welcome.fi
21:52:31 <ion> `tervetuloa Adolf
21:52:32 <HackEgo> Adolf: Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
21:53:16 <ion> Rainbow is sateenkaari in Finnish hth
21:53:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: um... does that make sense in finnish?
21:53:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's not weird, it's just the way `learn has always worked.
21:54:26 <ion> sateentuloa
21:54:38 <HackEgo> kaivaihtuvilta syrjistisemme venemienollisemmaksen finimittumalta hulluvinänsä lyömaaliseen hakeutuvinansa rastani raan keskuumanansa naisempientaisi naisemmalla
21:55:03 <fizzie> "kaivaihtuvilta" is borderline okay.
21:55:19 <fizzie> "from the probably-changing" or some such.
21:55:26 <b_jonas> oooh! is that some sort of stochastic model random generation?
21:55:35 <fizzie> It's character... trigrams?
21:55:38 <fizzie> I think it's trigrams.
21:55:49 <b_jonas> I made one of those once, a bit more complicated,
21:56:04 <fizzie> And then some separate word length model, I think.
21:56:07 <kmc> what other languages does `words know?
21:56:12 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
21:56:17 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
21:56:24 <fizzie> It barely fits in the output.
21:56:32 <nortti> `words --canadian-english-insane
21:56:46 <ion> Isn’t that redundant?
21:56:55 <fizzie> It can interpolate between two, which is I guess fancy.
21:57:01 <fizzie> `words --finnish --swedish 5
21:57:02 <HackEgo> gruosiatriken sänsä tahandeintamilja isras firman
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21:57:18 <b_jonas> taught it the list of ~3300 Hungarian town names and made it generate a mix of random town names and real town names so you have to guess,
21:57:19 <kmc> `words --eng-1M 12
21:57:20 <HackEgo> defica ced tigl magnant spagne bellus dellslotoet remark coversigna inramound congd trailch
21:57:21 <fizzie> Quite often the interpolation sticks to one of the models, unsurprisingly.
21:57:27 <kmc> english is such a beautiful language
21:57:34 <kmc> `words --german 12
21:57:35 <fizzie> kmc: You're such a magnant guy.
21:57:35 <HackEgo> tandenentalthar erung droismenais pannell tubenbau kelligio verrichtetermelz stavent argoverspretelloh infachgeselbuch importfreism far
21:57:40 <b_jonas> often it gave obviously fake gibberish, but it also gave good fakes
21:57:51 <kmc> `words --manx 12
21:57:52 <HackEgo> corpoin aesa cad hagh cummalreas per glooagey grein cleayreyda anchoobalan aasaayn yn-least-chei
21:57:57 <FireFly> `words --canadian-english-insane --esolangs 12
21:57:58 <HackEgo> thulg stant [] snusplia pan intymphiloquiet thingy tage cal perpropoma () purphlor
21:58:06 <fizzie> The esolang dataset is my favourite.
21:58:15 <fizzie> (It's esolang names from the wiki.)
21:58:20 <FireFly> `words --swedish --esolangs 20
21:58:21 <HackEgo> suicerylan ist orkar threa surn carant tmmlpte um-32 ransion2 numstränktif thundskatterwangiva iotets inveyor pyrels ortfal drivar flykt keminius cirke pointinan
21:58:30 <b_jonas> the best fake it generated is Nemes, which is actually the Hungarian name for a town in Romania, so it wasn't in the input dataset
21:58:51 <ion> `words --english --esolangs 20
21:59:07 <ion> `words --eng-1M --esolangs 20
21:59:08 <HackEgo> frak verix paxo bita mar etruelativenu bf-pda rssble splayne subskia pumpt mer inhydr mkblnk dobin ite pil dogranscrips pau bran
21:59:13 <b_jonas> my favourite from its output is Rúgonya though
21:59:17 <kmc> dogranscrips!
21:59:41 <Bike> i read a story today that involved a doge and the meme fucked me up
21:59:53 <kmc> `run for w in $(words --english --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done
21:59:59 <kmc> `run for w in $(words --eng-1M --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done
22:00:00 <b_jonas> I also tried to teach it to generate ordinary Hungarian text, but there the output is much more gibberish
22:00:01 <HackEgo> fercoin mencoin notcoin ovecoin hallycoin worlcoin tolmbacoin paxcoin abclarecoin geomegaplcoin whencoin valuscoin standfoocoin hattancoin wielcoin .yachiewcoin 0.75coin rssomskjcoin sentowcoin expenbecoin
22:00:18 <kmc> mencoin? isn't that just bitcoin? zing
22:00:22 <fizzie> Geomegaplcoins could be such a thing.
22:00:47 <kmc> `run echo 'for w in $(words --eng-1M --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done' > bin/coins && chmod +x bin/coins
22:00:47 <fizzie> Actually, a majority of them sound like plausible cryptocurrencies.
22:00:51 <HackEgo> devlcoin 1cnigmantcoin braincoin orthcoin gorgicoin maginacoin pnruncoin crtoncoin koticurcoin verstanfpacoin full+coin lytejudecoin andypacoin starmocoin puzzellcoin hosphacoin wlucoin fityrdahlecoin anycoin chapycoin
22:01:10 <HackEgo> netweeumonodycoin 0.9602coin hanoldbcoin gasoignimalcoin monterwacoin tweensidcoin suellowfoocoin forcoin dzzzcoin gotoncoin hobbacoin kroecoin obarandcoin verationcoin probelcoin nuitabllcoin ctorcoin sessprocoin .boxcoin aaromancoin
22:01:30 <ion> `run words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/\>/coin/g'
22:01:32 <HackEgo> incincoin chocoin ovecoin iihromodercoin insoncoin wertcoin ersioneranacoin divzcoin paxicoin adjustcoin vcoin rentacoin brillecoin beincoin qwertainspathogelycoin fannacoin vercoin brashmencoin coniacoin tyvercoin
22:01:42 <kmc> ion: much better
22:01:59 <kmc> `run echo 'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re '"'"'s/\>/coin/g'"'"'' > bin/coins
22:02:05 <HackEgo> bentacoin platorylancoin homoucoin rcepticoin pithcoin timissecoin guadecoin penfernoncoin pongcoin tsedumbcoin glycoin tgcoin netwocoin cratumcoin 2dcoin-refcoin colnicoin nabcoin mcoin-codcoin parecoin modecoin
22:02:14 <ion> mcoin-codcoin
22:03:50 <fizzie> `run espletive | sed -e 's/fuck/coin/' # workaround
22:06:22 <ion> `run words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
22:06:23 <HackEgo> woudrycoin quoiacoin cardcoin uniniftysnaicoin revergingcoin con-of-unbabtcoin ><>coin heicoin quotcoin morecoin entcoin perlincoin monozcand.nexcoin msgacoin cycliptcoin cufcoin workcoin braincncoin oversecoin leszecoin
22:07:26 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' 'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re '\''s/( |$)/coin\1/g'\' | tee bin/coins
22:07:28 <HackEgo> words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
22:07:41 <HackEgo> cutanginencoin befuckencoin aldinguncoin zenocoin doniacoin gloversecoin genorcoin infiniscoin vertcoin ooooocoin parcoin poglyoncoin anocoin presonalcoin checoin leurcoin retcoin brakillicoin rainecoin whencoin
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22:08:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Got any zenocoins on you?
22:09:30 <FireFly> Doesn't seem like a safe investment to me
22:09:46 <Bike> yeah, personally i'm going for thisisascamdontuseitcoin
22:09:47 <oerjan> fizzie: i somehow never manage to finish getting any
22:10:08 <b_jonas> Bike: make that scamcoin for short
22:10:18 <Bike> scamcoin is totally distinct!
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22:24:48 <oerjan> quintopia: found a "useful" resplicate pattern
22:25:28 <oerjan> which alleviates most of my doubts that it is TC
22:27:11 <oerjan> 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 0 ? n 1 ...any n integers...
22:27:54 <oerjan> it's self-producing and allows embedding any data
22:28:44 <b_jonas> does the esolang wiki have entries for the three simple automata Smullyan has defined in his books?
22:28:57 <b_jonas> if not, maybe I should write about them
22:29:16 <oerjan> also i don't know smullyan's automata
22:29:24 <b_jonas> yes, that's why I should write about them
22:29:58 <oerjan> hm i may vaguely recall someone writing something related on the wiki
22:30:30 <oerjan> hm no hits for "smullyan"
22:31:44 <b_jonas> two of them are defined in the book ''The Lady or the Tiger'', one in ''The Riddle of Scheherazade''.
22:32:19 <b_jonas> the three are very simlar, they're functions from digit strings to other digit strings,
22:32:51 <b_jonas> partial functions actually, with very simple rules, and often applied repeatedly with the question being whether it ever reaches a digit string not in the domain
22:34:36 <b_jonas> the other questions are finding a quine (there is at least one for each automaton)
22:35:40 <b_jonas> I should write them up on the wiki later
22:36:44 <b_jonas> I'm reminded to this by this Resplicate
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23:37:22 <HackEgo> Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
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00:29:09 <shachaf> Sgeo: are you Sgeoing #haskell
00:30:07 <kmc> what does that mean
00:30:11 <kmc> fungot: do you Sgeo?
00:30:12 <fungot> kmc: but flaming people for poor spelling grammar also bad. the only other language i can speak english, you make macro writers list all the classes?
00:30:22 <HackEgo> byyocoin attscoin spachellcoin tectdiscoin cccxxicoin imperdecoin velycoin bitumcoin agacoin waibcoin antcoin auracoin regxcoin unpliamenteuroschcoin shakrusolcoin rhotocoin aniccoin mibbcoin devilcoin ificidicacicoin
00:30:41 <HackEgo> houcoin affmancoin 5-logcoin lolcoin ozonecoin nonotcoin backcoin sendsoncoin eningcoin ethcoin bracoin bijcoin beasepcoin mdpncoin fromageddendstuckcoin avrllercoin kickcoin bayfelycoin broofcoin longiorsestantcoin
00:31:04 <kmc> `run wc -l /usr/share/dict/words
00:31:05 <HackEgo> wc: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
00:31:59 <kmc> `ls /usr/share/dict
00:34:05 <shachaf> kmc: did you know you can apt-get install wamerican-insane to get a big words list
00:34:46 <kmc> preschoolercoin shittycoin illegalcoin brassierecoin stupefyingcoin profanitycoin liquorcoin aggravationcoin ragcoin slaphappiercoin metamorphiccoin execrablecoin flabbergastcoin
00:35:13 <kmc> chuckholecoin confidentialcoin kismetcoin matinéecoin numeracycoin ignorancecoin linoleumcoin
00:35:54 <kmc> shachaf: yes
00:36:12 <ion> unpliamenteuroschcoin
00:41:40 <ion> diff /usr/share/dict/foo{-insane,} | sed -nre 's/^< (.*)/\1coin/p'
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00:43:59 <ion> Does HackEgo have any dict files?
00:44:14 <quintopia> b_jonas: i have one of smullyan's books where he defines one of those languages. i should put it on the wiki
00:45:24 <quintopia> oerjan: that's a pretty cool pattern, but in order to get a tag system, we need it to arrive at the front of the queue in the right orientation. is that easy?
00:46:28 <ion> % diff /usr/share/dict/american-english{-insane,} | sed -nre 's/^< (.*)/\1coin/p' | shuf | head -n 20 | xargs -d'\n'
00:46:30 <ion> breathalyzescoin erythrenecoin illimitability'scoin intercirculationcoin Lepismatidaecoin Pleurotomaria'scoin Tachyglossidaecoin sheepfacednesscoin Kapwepwe'scoin micturatedcoin indeterminationscoin brachycephalism'scoin scarpettocoin furoscoin coadministrationscoin oxheadscoin flemitcoin sphenoturbinalcoin Bacocoin Celisse'scoin
00:47:15 <ion> The first Google result: To view the definition of sphenoturbinal[1], activate your Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary FREE TRIAL now!
00:47:16 <kmc> egrep '^[a-z]*[a-rt-z]$'
00:47:28 <kmc> micturatedcoin nice
00:47:32 <ion> Gee, i surely will do that instead of reading it directly from the second Google result.
00:48:26 <oerjan> quintopia: what do you mean by right orientation?
00:48:34 <kmc> and what does that regex do exactly?
00:48:35 <Bike> Tachyglossidaecoin.
00:48:55 <kmc> ion: oh, xargs -d'\n' is really handy! thanks
00:49:29 <shachaf> so handy that one might wonder why it's not the default
00:49:33 <ion> kmc: Also: xargs -a <(some command) -d'\n' foo when you don’t want to break foo’s stdin.
00:49:45 <kmc> sulphurcoin aristocracycoin steamiestcoin exploitcoin bloatedcoin allegorycoin vicaragecoin dullestcoin
00:50:15 <kmc> speaking of words and letters and shit, https://twitter.com/anagramatron
00:51:20 <oerjan> quintopia: i'd imagine the actual structure of the whole queue to consist of these patterns, except for a few "active" blocks.
00:51:49 <oerjan> and those blocks would be responsible for synchronizing at their ends, naturally.
00:52:20 <oerjan> unless they want to activate the data inside one of these patterns, in which case they'd delete the prefix and possibly more.
00:52:24 <quintopia> oerjan: i'll have to study it to see what it does. right now i have to watch the opening cermonies :P
00:52:54 <ion> kmc: It took me a while to get it.
00:54:50 <ion> Pro tip: don’t try to analyze the retweets in isolation.
01:04:27 <kmc> available in a different format here http://anagramatron.tumblr.com/
01:09:15 <Sgeo> I should implement Braintrust in Racket
01:09:31 <Sgeo> Since I can include the Racket compiler in the compiled program
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01:10:09 <Sgeo> Should be able to avoid needing to actually have Racket, and effectively have Braintrust compile directly to machine code
01:10:28 <Sgeo> Or... err, Racket bytecode + Racket interpreter? Not sure how it works
01:11:49 <kmc> `relcome eliudLl24
01:11:50 <HackEgo> eliudLl24: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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01:21:08 <kmc> contraceptioncoin dairycoin arrogantcoin jerkincoin
01:23:37 <ion> I’ll buy 10000
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01:29:16 <oerjan> kmc: real words seem so passé for this
01:29:40 <HackEgo> geolbecoin nppcoin ardbarcoin ihaxcoin poblidcoin 350coin piecescoin chorreloecoin redcoracoin moncoin flumpaislmcoin brecoin frefcoin tagelpmencoin comcoin nunnytcoin flivitcoin nsomcoin mjicoin 272coin
01:29:59 <Bike> numbers now huh
01:31:48 <Taneb> I'm now treasurer of my uni's CS society help
01:33:58 <kmc> Taneb: are you the Taneb in #rust?
01:34:28 <Taneb> Are you the kmc in #rust
01:34:36 <Taneb> Is FreeFull the FreeFull in #rust
01:34:51 <kmc> we have a nice #esoteric contingent there
01:35:06 <kmc> lifthrasiir sometimes
01:35:27 <Taneb> I tried to push myself to learn it after I accidentally convinced some of my friends to learn it and they started asking me questions
01:35:27 <shachaf> a nice #esoteric contingent and a grouchy #esoteric contingent
01:36:54 <kmc> Taneb: awesome
01:37:08 <kmc> Taneb: that's like how I convinced Sgeo to learn Kernel
01:37:34 <kmc> except I still don't know Kernel
01:37:43 <Taneb> Kinda like me with Rust
01:37:46 <Bike> "so, not like it, really"
01:37:57 <FreeFull> Taneb: I told my friend not to learn it until it hits 1.0
01:38:09 <Taneb> One of these friends is writing a GNU Chess Twitter bot
01:38:27 <kmc> FreeFull: well it's not like the concepts behind ownership, lifetimes, etc. will change
01:38:36 <kmc> it's not too early to learn those
01:38:40 <FreeFull> kmc: True, but stuff is still changing
01:38:47 <kmc> just don't expect the code you write to actually compile in a month :)
01:38:58 <kmc> yeah. it's too early to learn the std lib really
01:38:58 <Taneb> I'm confused about the different kinds of pointers but I really just need to sit down and learn them
01:39:16 <FreeFull> Taneb: Only three kinds I think
01:39:32 <Taneb> It's 20 to 2 in the morning, I'm not gonna try and learn them now
01:39:33 <kmc> Taneb: managed pointers are on their way out so all we have now is owning pointers, references (formerly "borrowed pointers"), and C-style raw pointers
01:39:48 <FreeFull> C-style you should already understand
01:39:51 <Taneb> Which twiddle are managed pointers?
01:40:04 <kmc> managed is (was) @T
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01:40:10 <FreeFull> kmc: They're not called borrowed pointers anymore?
01:40:15 <kmc> FreeFull: nope!
01:40:33 <kmc> Taneb: the syntax is deprecated in favor of a library type Gc<T>, which isn't actually GC'd yet (just refcounted) just like the old @ boxes
01:41:08 <Bike> imo, write code dependent on Gc<T> being refcounted, so that the actual later type class thing whatever has to be GcActually
01:41:52 <Taneb> By and large I like the language :)
01:42:21 <Bike> jesus i'm so rusty with C i don't remember how to declare a constant. it doesn't have const does it? do i still #DEFINE shit
01:43:02 <zzo38> C does have a const declaration, but that isn't the use for it
01:44:06 <Taneb> Still need to get the hang of it
01:44:13 <Taneb> Well, I need to get the hang of not-Haskell
01:44:15 <Bike> the use for it isn't declaring constants?
01:44:19 <Taneb> (you should see my Python code)
01:44:37 <kmc> C's const is just a qualifier on pointers
01:45:12 <Bike> this thing has 'const std::string hw("Hello World\n");' how do i do that in C
01:45:29 <Bike> can it just be const char* hw = "Hello World\n" because that would make sense
01:45:38 <kmc> hmm is that really true though? GCC will compile "const int x = 3;" as C but is that standard?
01:46:40 <kmc> Bike: yes, or const char hw[] = "Hello World\n";
01:46:45 <FreeFull> const is a qualifier for any type
01:46:52 <kmc> which has slightly different semantics
01:47:05 <Bike> i might as well learn the array pointer distinction some time
01:47:08 <Bike> so what's the difference
01:47:18 <kmc> arrays and pointers are totally different
01:47:24 <kmc> but arrays decay into pointers in some circumstances
01:47:38 <FreeFull> sizeof acts differently for arrays and pointers
01:47:54 <kmc> I got this link here but it's down now? http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/array-pointer.html
01:47:58 <zzo38> Also array is declared as a storage but a pointer doesn't do that
01:48:37 <FreeFull> You can use const to declare a function that takes an array that has a minimum size
01:49:38 <Bike> i was going to use a wrapper around this library but now i'm thinking i'm so bad with C i should write in C just to unfuck myself
01:50:03 <kmc> Bike: so think of a static variable as just giving a name to some location in the binary. the «char hw[]» example gives a name to a location where "Hello World\n" is stored; the «char *hw» example gives a name to a location where a pointer (i.e. 4 or 8 bytes) to some location containing "Hello World\n" is stored
01:50:15 <kmc> if it weren't const, you could reassing «char *hw» to point to another string but not «char hw[]»
01:50:20 <Bike> ok hold on just a sec here
01:50:34 <kmc> sorry, by static i don't just mean declared with the 'static' keyword
01:50:46 <Bike> i just... you're going to ahve to bear with me here
01:50:53 <shachaf> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fmauke.hopto.org%2Fstuff%2Fc%2Farray-pointer.html
01:50:58 <kmc> I mean anything declared with 'static' in a function or anything declared at the top level of a file, whether declared with 'static' or not
01:51:09 <Bike> static in this context means it's like, not erased by the compiler or anything
01:51:11 <kmc> i.e. variables which live at a single fixed location in the loaded binary
01:51:15 <Bike> probably something cleverer.
01:51:27 <kmc> as opposed to normal function local variables, which live temporarily on the stack
01:51:36 <Bike> ok. makes sense.
01:51:47 <kmc> this is sort of an operational view rather than a semantic one
01:51:54 <kmc> but you kinda have to learn C from both ends
01:52:01 <kmc> because the semantics don't make a lot of sense without the operational constraints
01:52:42 <kmc> anyway read shachaf's link
01:53:11 <kmc> they say the first milestone to learning C is realizing that pointers and arrays are the same, and the second milestone is realizing that they aren't the same at all
01:54:11 <Bike> so is sizeof on a pointer the size of "the pointer itself", like a word or whateverr
01:54:35 <kmc> on a 64-bit machine, sizeof(foo*) == 8 regardless of what type foo is
01:54:58 <Bike> so if i do char* hw = "Hello World" and sizeof it i'll get 1 or 4 or something (or uh, 8) but if i do char hw[] = "Hello World" i'll get 11?
01:55:01 <kmc> (on a typical 64-bit machine, ignoring exotic non-flat memory models and such)
01:55:13 <kmc> Bike: 12 because there's a null as well
01:55:21 <Bike> ok cool that makes sense.
01:55:58 <Bike> and in the second case, &hw is then the same as hw in the first case? (not counting allocation stuff or whatever, hopefully you know what i mean)
01:56:22 <kmc> Bike: &hw is the same as the result of hw decaying to a pointer, yeah
01:56:27 <kmc> of course sizeof(&hw) != sizeof(hw)
01:56:30 <FreeFull> Oh, that was static I was thinking of, not const
01:56:39 <FreeFull> void someFunction(char someArray[static 100])
01:56:56 <kmc> gotta run, ttyl!
01:57:00 <Bike> and then if i had the hw pointer version (call it hwp) then &hwp would be a pointer to hwp, which is totally different from &hw
01:59:59 <FreeFull> int64_t hw[] = {1,2,3,4}; will give you a sizeof of 32
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02:18:01 <Bike> is ther esome constant to return from main instead of zero if i'm being incredibly anal
02:18:29 <zzo38> I don't know of any such thing
02:18:55 <Bike> you know, something like RETURN_SUCCESS that's zero on everything except the fuckutron 9000
02:19:03 <Bike> just wondering cos EXIT_SUCCESS and EXIT_FAILURE apparently exist
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02:52:33 <kmc> Bike: the return codes from main are always the same as the arguments to exit(), I think
03:04:51 <kmc> cilantrocoin
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03:07:15 <copumpkin> kmc: does the name aaron todd ring a bell?
03:07:49 <kmc> the nick "toddaaro" does
03:08:29 <copumpkin> he's my new officemate! he said he knew (of?) you
03:09:59 <Bike> good news i have more C questions
03:10:10 <pikhq> And we know all of C.
03:10:22 <kmc> good news everybody!
03:10:22 <Bike> this API has a function for getting an array ("an array") of information, like a version string or suchlike
03:10:54 <Bike> the function is like get_version(size_t, char*, size_t*)
03:11:23 <Bike> and you basically have to call it twice - the first time the first two arguments are NULL or w/e and you just want the size_t pointer, which tells you the size the result will be
03:11:37 <Bike> and then you call it with the third argument NULL and the first argument the third from last time
03:11:41 <Bike> why not have two functions?
03:12:20 <shachaf> why two functions when you can have one
03:12:35 <pikhq> Sounds like Windows API design.
03:12:42 <shachaf> i've heard of windows apis doing that
03:12:51 <Bike> it's not, but the billion NULLs everywhere did give me bad memories of windows
03:13:12 <Bike> i mean, the goal is to avoid having to call malloc in the library, right, but like... bluh
03:13:38 <pikhq> I imagine the intent is that you can pass a buffer and the size of the buffer, and call a second time if you had to resize the buffer.
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03:16:36 <Bike> i guess that sort of makes sense...
03:17:10 <Bike> also: this thing returns a char[] technically. can i just assume that it's null terminated? (it is with my implementation but, anal)
03:17:44 <shachaf> you mean, assume it because of the type?
03:18:00 <Bike> the type and usual conventions.
03:18:16 <Bike> i imagine it's possible to return a non-null-terminated char[], i'm just wondering if anyone does so.
03:18:22 <Bike> without saying so, anyway
03:18:40 <pikhq> It's done, but it's also pretty explicitly said.
03:18:53 <pikhq> The default assumption is that a char* is NUL terminated.
03:18:55 <shachaf> "returning a char[]" is kind of strange anyway
03:18:56 <Bike> ok. was kinda paranoid since i had the size of the string on hand and all.
03:19:20 <pikhq> shachaf: Unless the function returns a char[static 4] or something then it's just goofy.
03:19:23 <shachaf> but if you're using char * strings in C they'll generally be \0-terminated, yes
03:19:54 <Bike> the api spec has "char[]". i actually have it using a char* without complaint, and i guess it's the same as a function argument anyway
03:20:27 <pikhq> Yes, in a function declaration it's just a really stupid way of writing char*.
03:20:44 <Bike> well in the decl it's a void*... you know what i'm probably not describing this well anyway http://www.khronos.org/registry/cl/sdk/1.2/docs/man/xhtml/
03:21:01 <pikhq> Oooooh, it's those idiots.
03:21:10 <pikhq> They couldn't design a good API to save their lives.
03:21:10 <Bike> are khronos known idiots
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03:21:19 <pikhq> Yes, OpenGL is horrid.
03:21:44 <Bike> it does this thing with "contexts" that i vaguely remember from opengl, in fact...
03:26:42 <pikhq> How you'd do clGetPlatformInfo in a sane way is more like: char *cl_platform_info(int id);
03:27:34 <Bike> what, no cl_int??
03:27:47 <pikhq> cl_int is evidence of brain damage.
03:28:04 <Bike> every C api i have ever used defines its own whatever_int whatever_char whatever_whatever
03:28:23 <pikhq> Yes, that is a cargo cult practice.
03:28:36 <Bike> actually, wait, i don't think memory pool system did. thanks, mps
03:28:44 <Bike> why the hell do they do that, it's so confusing.
03:28:53 <Bike> i'm pretty sure i've asked this before.
03:29:09 <pikhq> I have no idea why it's done, I just know that it has literally no value.
03:30:09 <Bike> hmmmmm mps sorta does it
03:30:09 <pikhq> But then, zlib is claimed to be a good library. Which is saddening.
03:30:12 <Bike> "A transparent type is an alias defined using typedef, and this is documented so that the client program can rely on that fact. For example, mps_addr_t is a transparent alias for void *. Transparent types express intentions in the interface: in the case of mps_addr_t it represents a pointer that is under the control of the MPS."
03:30:51 <Bike> which seems kind of weird still, but at least there's no mps_int_t.
03:30:56 <pikhq> I disagree with that choice, but that is at least someone being reasonable.
03:31:18 <pikhq> Except that library does not strictly conform to C. :P
03:31:32 <pikhq> *_t is reserved namespace.
03:31:33 <Bike> what, you can't typedef with void* or something?
03:31:46 <Bike> well, whoops, that's all over the place.
03:32:12 <pikhq> Yep. That too is cargo culted from people seeing it in libc a lot.
03:32:12 * Bike glances through other api docs, finds plenty of size_t and va_list at least
03:32:23 <pikhq> Where it's used a lot *because it's reserved for libc*.
03:33:14 <pikhq> The point is, you can't make your own types ending in _t. Because that's reserved.
03:33:40 <Bike> it seems like a weirdo hungarian thing, i guess.
03:34:14 <pikhq> More a "C has no namespacing whatsoever" thing.
03:34:15 <Bike> when i first started programming i tried a lot of C but never quite understood it because of things like this that are never explained. being a programmer in that sort of environment seems demoralizing.
03:34:44 <pikhq> This is largely a matter of no good books on the subject existing.
03:35:02 <Bike> admittedly Learn C in 24 Hours wasn't the best choice on my part
03:35:10 <pikhq> Because many C programmers learned C from cargo culting in the 80s.
03:36:31 <monotone> I started learning C by writing programs that crash a lot. I still haven't left that phase.
03:37:39 <Bike> pikhq: so with your sane way - that means the cl library handles the malloc-ing?
03:38:07 <pikhq> No. It returns a pointer to a fixed, constant buffer in the library.
03:39:26 <Bike> oh, i see. i don't think it's necessarily that fixed though.
03:39:37 <Bike> anyway, i just noticed these Get functions are allowed to return OOM codes anyway.
03:39:49 <Bike> so that's cool
03:40:02 <Bike> this is all so efficient!
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03:40:55 <pikhq> Another way to handle it, if it can't be fixed or even fixed in size, is: char *cl_platform_info(char **, size_t *);
03:41:04 <pikhq> Wherein it'll call realloc for you if necessary.
03:41:34 <shachaf> that assumes a lot about how you'll be doing memory management
03:42:24 <shachaf> well, that your string will be allocated by malloc()
03:48:44 <Bike> hm, in this case the cl_uint etc. thing might be justified, since cl defines a C-ish language for devices that aren't the host, so uint on the host may not be the device's uint, so they call the latter cl_uint
03:48:51 <Bike> except there's no way the device is calling these functions.
03:54:17 <kmc> "we can expect internal chip speeds to increase by a factor of approximately 13 overall up to 2012, when the clock rates reach about 10GHz"
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03:55:16 <kmc> C APIs have so many wacky ways to manage memory... in this sense Rust actually has *fewer* pointer types than C ;)
03:56:15 <kmc> it's just that Rust's different pointer types are checked by the compiler, rather than being something you have to hold in your head and never ever screw up or you get pwned
03:57:21 <kmc> Bike: ooh are you using MPS?
03:57:28 <kmc> MPS seems pretty shiny
03:57:39 <Bike> no, it's just what comes to mind when i think of "C API that i can remotely understand"
03:57:53 <Bike> would be nice to have to use it
04:03:00 <Bike> hm this thing says a return value can be "a combination of" a bunch of opaque constants
04:03:25 <kmc> they probably mean a bitwise OR
04:04:14 <Bike> "Currently supported values are one of or a combination of: CL_DEVICE_TYPE_CPU, CL_DEVICE_TYPE_GPU, CL_DEVICE_TYPE_ACCELERATOR, CL_DEVICE_TYPE_DEFAULT, a combination of the above types, or CL_DEVICE_TYPE_CUSTOM. " kinda redundant actually
04:07:52 <Bike> cool gcc doesn't recognize CL_DEVICE_TYPE_CUSTOM, maybe i can "file a bug"
04:09:46 <Bike> hey sweet these things have popcnt. finally good news.
04:10:08 <Bike> even the GPU. what's a GPU do with popcnt? hell if i know but i'm excited to find out.
04:11:39 <Bike> i wonder if pikhq would like the thirty lines beginning with "typedef cl_uint"
04:12:14 <Bike> "WARNING! Unlike cl_ types in cl_platform.h, cl_bool is not guaranteed to be the same size as the bool in kernels." what's the point of anything life is meaningless
04:27:48 <quintopia> I ran all resplicate sequences of the form 6 3 10 1 62 n 1 for all odd numbers up to 500 and classified them according to what they did long-term.
04:28:19 <quintopia> turns out 6 3 10 1 6 2 459 1 is a period 9808 oscillator
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04:39:17 <Sgeo> Should I be concerned that a Racket dev is pointing to node.js as an example of why I shouldn't complain about something that Racket does?
04:39:39 <Sgeo> In the sense of 'it worked for node.js, it would work for us'
04:40:21 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/Racket/comments/1w88rq/social_solution_to_a_technical_problem/cf9vy4g?context=3
04:41:21 <kmc> slightly ironic because of the multi-year fight over who gets to be "node" in Debian
04:42:36 <quintopia> and 6 3 10 1 6 2 383 1 converges to the 688-twos oscillator after 42,118 cycles.
04:45:05 <Sgeo> kmc: port syntax-parse to Rust
04:45:29 <Sgeo> Hmm, I wonder if Racket's syntax-parse, when told that something is an expression, will expand it to check
04:46:11 <Sgeo> Also, I want to write a more hygienic syntax-quasiquote
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05:02:28 <Sgeo> kmc: that thing you linked me. Haven't watched yet, but I assume it's intended to be if the language has already been implemented, and starting from scratch things could have been done differently, this wouldn't be needed?
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05:09:07 <kmc> i don't know
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05:17:18 <Sgeo> kmc: should I be twitching in discomfort at a templating system that picks up on the lexical environment of the include-template?
05:18:01 <kmc> ask your doctor if you should be twitching
05:22:44 <monotone> If it's anything like the feeling I get when I pass locals() to a Django template...
05:23:48 <kmc> monotone: obviously the template code should be rewritten to use the 'inspect' module to read its caller's locals implicitly
05:24:53 <monotone> "Anything that makes us more like PHP has to be good, right?"
05:26:15 <Bike> sinners, sinners, i'm surrounded by iniquity
05:26:44 <monotone> It's not too late to renounce the material world and become a monk!
05:27:15 <monotone> Actually, no, I think Perl ruined that one.
05:27:53 <Bike> what else is new
05:31:21 <Bike> they've been having those forever.
05:31:34 <Bike> i need something fresh!!
05:35:30 <monotone> I feel like you won't be satisfied with anything but the blood of the innocent.
05:35:46 <Bike> well obviously
05:37:17 <monotone> You'll have to ask kmc for that.
05:40:43 <Bike> kmc what's the market price of innocent blood
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05:52:43 <kmc> jeez it's so hard to get ever since silk road shut down
05:53:45 <kmc> only since 1924, that's hardly "forever"
06:00:02 <Sgeo> I should try Light Table
06:00:21 <Sgeo> If I'm willing to like Smalltalk merely because of the IDE, trying a 'good' IDE for a language I once liked shouldn't be painful
06:00:29 <Sgeo> And it's not like I have new reason to dislike Clojure
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06:24:04 <Bike> i should have known "typedef intptr_t cl_context_properties" wasn't going to end well. it ended with clCreateContext({CL_CONTEXT_PLATFORM, (cl_context_properties)(platform[0]), 0}, ...)
06:24:48 <Bike> btw cl_uint isn't a mere unsigned int, it's actually unsigned __int32
06:40:06 <kmc> indiscretioncoin grittiercoin cockamamiecoin weepcoin manslaughtercoin gloamingcoin kebabcoin yawncoin snackcoin spaghetticoin
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06:44:20 <Bike> weepcoin sounds useful and fun
06:46:39 <kmc> you mine weepcoins by weeping
06:46:50 <Bike> shit i'm way ahead of the market
06:48:54 <kmc> Matthew Green's rationale for launching Zerocoin as a new currency: "If people will put money into Dogecoin, they’ll put it into anything"
06:54:56 <Sgeo> Which is a more entertaining read, The Reasoned Schemer, or Purely Functional Data Structures?
06:55:34 <Bike> i recommend some karel čapek.
06:55:34 <kmc> i think the former is more entertaining but i care more about the results in the latter
06:56:20 <shachaf> if your goal is entertainment there are also other books you could read that would satisfy it even better
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08:16:50 <HackEgo> rflcercoin percoin 90pcoin demcoin 3trecoin rtnencoin um-32coin sheavoignacoin cystoccoin undennecoin goto++coin vernankcoin wildcoin rssbcoin fortcoin chrcoin iotcoin gagnacoin tace1.0coin spartneratemlcoin
08:17:06 <fizzie> 90pcoin, the cryptocurrency for the 90%.
08:19:49 <augur_> elliott_________: this seems like something you'd like: http://dorrismccomics.com/post/6384447758
08:32:16 <Sgeo> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bfut4WoCQAAdY3o.jpg
08:33:40 <Bike> "If the Perl 5 interpreter source were lost, I'm pretty sure we as a species could not accurately recreate it."
08:40:37 <fizzie> http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2014/02/07/finnish_police_probe_wikipedia_donation_requests that'll teach them
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10:19:26 <Sgeo> Why am I installing EiffelStudio?
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11:11:06 <ion> http://imgur.com/gallery/nfRsdYe
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13:38:44 <ion> Breaking Baryons http://youtu.be/eI91bT-p5Oc | Desperately Seeking Susy http://youtu.be/3vM5u3VT_WE
13:42:15 <oerjan> Got my Heart on a String
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14:12:14 <itsy> A Core War tournament has just been announced http://youtu.be/41GIevxobH0 (more details tomorrow)
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15:02:20 <oerjan> `unicode HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS
15:08:49 <oerjan> hello just confirming one of your conjectures
15:09:01 <oerjan> (and making your python work)
15:10:30 <Slereah_> `unicode EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH E017
15:10:36 <quintopia> (probably the wiki version isn't the same as my local version. i updated them together rather than copypasting)
15:11:00 <quintopia> oerjan: which conjecture did you confirm
15:11:03 <oerjan> hm is the remainder a conjecture at all
15:11:14 <oerjan> "The family 6 3 10 1 6 2 (2k) 1 for k at least 12 always becomes an oscillator of period k-1."
15:11:50 <oerjan> just tracing it by hand, and doing the python on a couple examples to check i didn't mess up
15:14:14 <oerjan> shikhin: HackEgo has a copy of python that cannot handle all of unicode.
15:14:16 <quintopia> yeah i don't understand your proof. the last line and 6th line look nothing the same... :P
15:14:48 <oerjan> 6th last line, quintopia
15:15:46 <oerjan> shikhin: too much work, especially while HackEgo is otherwise somewhat broken (but don't count on me doing it anyway)
15:17:20 <quintopia> oerjan: i ran 6 3 10 1 6 2 n 1 for all odds up to 500 and categorized the long-term behavior for each one. i can uncover no pattern.
15:19:07 <oerjan> fixed a miscounting in the description.
15:19:47 <oerjan> i somehow looked at the wrong vertical ellipsis when counting the first time
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16:03:55 <oerjan> ais523: you might want the little resplicate building block i made
16:04:34 <ais523> oerjan: it's OK, I already proved it TC
16:04:38 <ais523> quintopia: ResPlicate's TC
16:05:42 <oerjan> (and a little aww, too)
16:07:09 <ais523> quintopia: oerjan: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/resplicate/tag-to-resplicate.pl http://nethack4.org/esolangs/resplicate/tc-proof-notes.txt
16:07:42 <ais523> tag system to resplicate compiler, notes I wrote when creating it (so you can get some insight into how I go about proving languages TC)
16:07:57 <ais523> I'm almost inspired to make a tarpit version now (which would probably be more complex than the original)
16:08:06 <ais523> resplicate has a whole bunch of capabilities that aren't particularly useful
16:08:57 <ais523> btw, that compiler uses -1 for cells that never execute
16:09:06 <ais523> I'm not sure if that technically complies with the language definition
16:18:02 <ais523> you can just substitute any other number, though
16:21:00 <ais523> oerjan: actually the TCness proof was pretty routine
16:21:12 <ais523> there was only one difficult bit, remembering where the IP was after copying the alphabet
16:22:13 <ais523> also that interp's got a lot more complex overnight
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16:36:06 <oerjan> hm reading your .txt, i think the part about being allowed to copy misaligned alphabets is important for being able to perform a command in a single pass of the queue, which is also alas why you won't be needing anything like the nice building block i made
16:36:32 <ais523> oerjan: I feel like there may be some complex solution that doesn't require misaligned alphabets
16:36:52 <ais523> but there's not much point, because resplicate isn't really a tarpit, it has a whole range of different things you can do
16:37:20 <oerjan> my vague thoughts (which i tried not to think _too_ much about since i knew you were working on it) was that you'd need a second pass through to clean up afterwards, which is why i thought such a "stabilizer" was needed when you went through the rest of the queue
16:38:16 <oerjan> and also i was thinking cyclic tag instead, which i now realize is more complicated.
16:38:41 <oerjan> (because you have state that needs to be passed on)
16:39:35 <oerjan> s/you have/cyclic tag has/
16:40:22 <ais523> cyclic tag is basically one of the simplest models for "the program and data are separate" models
16:40:40 <ais523> if you have to mix them up, then you can use tag, which basically just needs a queue and a lookup table
16:40:53 <ais523> lookup tables are awkward in many languages, but pretty easy in ResPlicate
16:44:06 <ais523> so the only tricky issue in ResPlicate is trying to distribute copies of the lookup table where you need them, while not losing track of what you're doing in the process
16:56:30 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/newly-tenured-professor-now-inspired-to-work-harde,35169/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
17:00:13 <ais523> what's with all the key=butt in the query string?
17:01:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: You should get to the bottom of this).
17:01:30 <ion> ais523: It had some more boring tracking information but i fixed it.
17:02:15 <int-e> why didn't you delete it though...
17:02:46 -!- MoALTz has joined.
17:03:53 <ion> int-e: That would result in a lack of butts in some httpd log.
17:04:14 <ion> Hah. Try uploading a file that is not an image. http://i.srsfckn.biz/
17:06:24 <int-e> it doesn't like .xpm
17:07:24 <int-e> or windows bitmaps. is it jpg and png only?
17:08:11 <zzo38> curl: (26) failed creating formpost data
17:08:37 <zzo38> What happen if the file has extra data on the end?
17:09:18 <zzo38> Nevermind I figured out the problem
17:10:43 <int-e> it doesn't mind extra data.
17:12:05 <zzo38> How do I convert it into CP437 encoding?
17:13:26 <zzo38> O, I figured out I have iconv in MinGW
17:15:01 <int-e> http://i.srsfckn.biz/95.png
17:20:16 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:20:43 <zzo38> I tried uploading a ZIP archive by prepending a 1x1 PNG file and it works
17:21:59 <zzo38> http://i.srsfckn.biz/3B2.png
17:23:17 <int-e> -rw-a-- 2.0 fat 6294 b- defN 14-Feb-08 09:12 pic.ans
17:24:26 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it is done
17:25:09 <zzo38> Such a file can be unzipped even though it is uploading as PNG
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18:04:18 <quintopia> ais523: can you make nethack4 deliver pl files with a text/plain mime type please?
18:04:31 <quintopia> i'd rather examine code in browser
18:05:04 <ais523> quintopia: hmm, is there any way to get your browser to override the MIME type?
18:05:16 <ais523> I like the current situation because then I get syntax highlighting
18:06:32 <quintopia> i don't know of any way for dolphin
18:06:48 <ais523> you use a filesystem browser as a web browser?
18:06:56 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140208-pi2.jpg <- it's a Raspberry Pi. (Well, part of it.)
18:06:58 <ais523> or are there /three/ programs called dolphin?
18:07:02 <quintopia> the mobile browser not the file system browser
18:07:17 <ais523> ok, right, there are at least three programs called dolphin
18:07:47 <ais523> the gamecube emulator's named after the gamecube's codename
18:07:53 <ais523> so that isn't really surprising
18:08:16 <ais523> (I remember seeing someone complaining that their computer thought that their gamecube emulator was a file manager and kept trying to open directories in it…)
18:09:28 <quintopia> how long until gamecube emulator for mobile
18:09:59 <ais523> I'd say it'd be a while before mobile phone have enough power, a few years at least
18:10:55 <ais523> and even on PCs, gamecube emulators don't have accurate timings for reading from CD yet
18:11:04 <ais523> which completely changes the strategy for some games
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18:13:31 <quintopia> ais523: what mime type does it actually deliver .py as? i'll search for plugins or something
18:14:39 <ais523> Content-Type: application/x-perl
18:14:56 <ais523> sorry, had to go tell my browser to capture the HTTP headers, browsers tend not to do that by default
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18:15:36 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin.
18:18:25 <ais523> oh gah, now I'm thinking about the 1D MMO again
18:18:33 <ais523> that's one of #esoteric's sillier ideas
18:19:25 <fizzie> There's at least one 1D shooter, Lineality.
18:19:35 <fizzie> https://archive.org/details/Lineality
18:19:53 <ais523> hmm, in a 1D shooter, it seems quite hard to miss
18:20:00 <fizzie> (It's not online at all, though.)
18:20:11 <ais523> what sort of mechanics are used to make the shooting part interesting? you have to get the range accurate?
18:20:30 <fizzie> I don't remember. It's possible that no effort was spent to make it an interesting game.
18:21:36 <fizzie> You can select between "Width Mode", "Height Mode" and "Depth Mode", which I think control the direction of the line.
18:21:41 <fizzie> It can also optionally rotate.
18:22:58 <fizzie> Well, you get to choose the direction to shoot at, and enemies drop life.
18:23:09 <fizzie> I suppose there's some amount of strategy involved in deciding when to turn around.
18:26:55 <nooodl> an MMO on a tape would be cute
18:28:48 <Bike> do you ever feel disappointed that your gpu isn't four dimensional because i do
18:32:18 <ais523> Bike: modern GPUs are perfectly capable of doing four-dimensional calculations (then rendering them to 3D, then 2D for the screen)
18:32:28 <ais523> although the GPU itself is three-dimensional
18:32:34 <Bike> i can't have 4d work groups though
18:32:59 <ais523> however, most GPU programming languages don't let you mess around with the 5x5 matrices you'd need
18:33:00 <Bike> 256×256×256 max. tyrannical
18:33:30 <ais523> oh, that's pretty minor, given that if you're creating a "256x256x256" group it's basically just concatenating the bits of the three coordinates
18:33:37 <ais523> you can just modulo them out of the block number by hand
18:33:52 <ais523> some GPUs even have shift operations nowadays
18:34:25 <Bike> but it's just not the same, man!
18:35:21 <Bike> anyway i'm going to write my first gpgpu program up in here. gonna square an array. shit yeah.
18:35:42 <ais523> Bike: oh boy, have fun
18:35:48 <ais523> we use that as a GPU optimization test for our students sometimes
18:36:00 <ais523> there are mindbogglingly high numbers of ways to screw that up performance-wise
18:36:12 <zzo38> I do think you should have support just arbitrary dimensional
18:36:15 <Bike> i was thinking about what would make a good "hello world" but matrix*vector and summing a vector both seemed too complicated
18:36:19 <ais523> like, if you write a naive matrix-squaring program, there are at least 8 optimizations you can do
18:36:50 <ais523> zzo38: basically the way it works is that the GPU can handle a limited number of "blocks" at any given time, which are basically the large scheduling units of the GPU
18:36:54 <Bike> the tutorial i'm going off of uses an actual hello world. like what, this is a fucking gpu
18:37:31 <FireFly> Does it raytrace "Hello world!"?
18:37:37 <ais523> and you want blocks to have high data locality, i.e. you want to reduce the amount of memory that each individual block accesses as far as possible
18:37:39 <FireFly> Because that seems like something that'd be sensical to do on a GPU
18:37:46 <ais523> the blocks have numbers that are just integers (typically 24-bit)
18:37:53 <Bike> no, it just has each unit put a single letter into a string
18:37:57 <ais523> but it often makes sense to interpret them as coordinates
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18:38:16 <ais523> Bike: actually, GPU-accelerated memcpy is a pretty good hello world
18:38:28 <Bike> memcpy maybe, but this is a constant...
18:38:42 <ais523> yeah, I wasn't suggesting for a hello world
18:38:55 <ais523> but as a first project that isn't very difficult yet is the sort of task GPUs are actually good at
18:39:13 <Bike> i figure elementwise squaring shouldn't be hard.
18:39:27 <ais523> NetHack 4 uses GPU acceleration for copying rectangular areas around in video memory (and occasionally alpha-blending), that's about it
18:39:33 <ais523> yet it still helps a lot because GPUs are very fast
18:39:37 <ais523> Bike: oh, element-wise
18:39:39 <Bike> it's only taking time because the only tutorial i found is in C++ and kind of fucked up
18:39:44 <ais523> I thought you mean multiplying an array by itself
18:39:48 <Bike> what were you thinking? cross product?
18:39:58 <ais523> elliott_________: only in tiles or faketerm mode
18:40:01 <Bike> also yeah i'm excited to hear even term roguelikes are high-end now
18:40:18 <Bike> wait. alpha blending? what?
18:40:30 <ais523> Bike: in case it wants to draw "monster on stairs" or whatever
18:41:00 <ais523> conditionals are really hard to do on a GPU, turns out that alpha blending (multiplying by 1 or 0) is actually faster than using an if statement to do transparency any other way
18:41:31 <ais523> or well, they're not /hard/, you can write them just fine
18:41:36 <ais523> but GPUs are not fast at evaluating them
18:41:46 <Bike> do they have any branch prediction?
18:41:53 <Bike> i doubt it but
18:42:55 <ais523> they actually /can't/ have branch prediction, the way they work, because absolutely everythig is SIMD
18:43:16 <ais523> if statements tend to be very slow unless the entire warp takes the same branch, as a result
18:43:24 <ais523> otherwise it has to process the branches separately
18:44:07 <ais523> GPUs do something that's similar in nature to branch prediction, though
18:44:26 <ais523> if a block tries to access data, it'll deschedule it while it's waiting for the data to arrive from RAM
18:44:45 <ais523> a half-warp is the unit that actually runs on a GPU at once
18:45:14 <ais523> like, it has one ALU for each thread in the half-warp, they all run in perfect lock-step (sufficiently so that if you know what the GPU's warp size is, you can get away with not adding in synchronization primitives)
18:45:52 <ais523> current GPUs take one clock cycle to write the value back into block memory, so you effectively have an entire warp running concurrently
18:46:13 <ais523> GPU programming languages tend to abstract away the existence of warps, you work at the thread or block level
18:47:27 <Bike> blugh, it's going to suck figuring out how to write a kernel for the actual thing i'm writing. i'm porting it from matlab full of branches V_V
18:47:43 <Bike> and not-independent for loop iterations
18:47:50 <Bike> good time to have zero experience with concurrency
18:49:01 <zzo38> Can NetHack 4 run in text mode and not use GPU (such as if it is not available)?
18:49:36 <zzo38> ais523: There is Checkout on esolang wiki though, but no implementation (as far as I know)
18:52:04 <ais523> zzo38: it can run in text mode without the GPU
19:01:10 <ais523> some day I'd like to write a game entirely on the GPU, that sounds like it could be fun
19:03:07 <Bike> how do you do a multiline string in C again
19:03:42 <ais523> "first line\n" (put a literal newline here) "second line\n" and so on
19:04:09 <ais523> C ignores doublequote, whitespace, doublequote sequences in strings
19:04:35 <ais523> it also ignores backslash-newline sequences anywhere but that's typically a bad idea to use because that doesn't let you indent the line afterwards
19:04:46 <Bike> oh. well that's convenient
19:04:59 <zzo38> I did program a bit more of "Savant's Maze" roguelike game; now it is possible to pick up items and list them in your inventory. However, a curse affects all items of the same kind so if you have a cursed scroll of knight move and pick up an uncursed one, that one will become cursed too, or if you have an uncursed one and pick up a cursed one, both will become cursed.
19:05:48 <ais523> doing a backslash-newline in the middle of a keyword is typically frowned on
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19:21:34 <ais523> I think the backslash-newline thing was invented for the same reason as trigraphs, so that you could write a very simple mechanical translator from C-code-I-found-on-Usenet (the Web didn't exist back then) to C-code-that-fits-my-machine's-text-encoding
19:21:47 <ais523> in this case, to deal with line length issues rather than character set issues
19:22:03 <ais523> back in the days of punched cards, there were literal limits on the longest lines it was possible to store in text files
19:22:15 <ais523> I wonder if punched cards and Usenet coexisted, it seems unlikely
19:22:25 <ais523> possibly punched-card machines were still in use as Usenet were starting, but not widespread
19:27:24 <ais523> actually I think that given the design of C, the most likely explanation is that they did it like that just in case someone wanted to use it with a punched card machine at some point
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19:42:58 <ais523> FreeFull: interesting use of backslashes
19:43:05 <ais523> what happens if you put stuff other than whitespace in between them?
19:43:16 <FireFly> ais523: what about in comments?
19:43:27 <FireFly> backslash-newline in C, I mean
19:43:34 <ais523> FireFly: you can backslash-newline inside comments, including // comments
19:43:43 <ais523> this is a great way to troll people, I think gcc warns about it nowadays
19:43:49 <FireFly> Well, maybe "nice" is not the right word
19:43:51 <ais523> you can also backslash-newline between the / and * or * and /
19:43:58 <ais523> but it's quite hard to make that look like an accident
19:44:22 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'a'
19:45:08 <FireFly> I imagine you could camouflage it in line comments doing something like /// this is a comment \\\
19:45:09 <ais523> it'd be fun, although kind-of pointless, if strings allowed comments in them
19:45:25 <ais523> in C you can do that using "hello "/* this is a comment */"world"
19:45:56 <ais523> because comments are transformed to whitespace before string literals are concatenated
19:49:33 <kmc> it's even better with trigraphs
19:49:36 <kmc> // Will the next line be executed????????????????/
19:51:18 <Bike> more C questions. i have a const char[] source at toplevel. in a function when i try declaring "char[][] sources = {source}" gcc tells me the element type is incomplete.
19:52:39 <kmc> you can't define an array of things whose size is unknown
19:52:53 <kmc> and the size of char[] is unknown (unlike, say, char[10])
19:53:09 <kmc> you would probably use: char *sources[]
19:53:25 <kmc> which is an array of char*
19:54:09 <Bike> yeah, that works (once i add a const), thanks
19:56:09 <Bike> const char *foo[] is an array of const char*, right? can i make the array itself constant (not really necessary, but)
19:58:57 <kmc> const char * const foo[]
19:59:26 <kmc> it's uncommon though
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19:59:45 <Bike> yeah it's pointless here
19:59:51 <kmc> people get more particular about const in C++
19:59:54 <kmc> at least in some styles of C++
20:00:15 <kmc> `which cdecl
20:00:51 <kmc> well you can use it on the web here: http://cdecl.org/
20:00:54 <kmc> "declare foo as array of const pointer to const char"
20:01:09 <FireFly> like, int typedef foo; being legal, since typedefs are just regular declarations
20:01:24 <kmc> FireFly: yeah
20:01:46 <kmc> it has a certain degree of internal consistency ("declaration follows use!") but it's a /bad/ rule even if there is a rule
20:02:11 <kmc> const int (* volatile bar)[64] // ;___;
20:02:11 <Bike> i had this idea that i could use {...} as a constant literal nameless array because of the initializer syntax
20:02:14 <FireFly> That part is somewhat reasonable-ish I find
20:02:14 <Bike> what a fool i was!
20:02:25 <ais523> I tried to define a function that returns pointers to arrays
20:02:31 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if it's legal
20:02:32 <FireFly> I mean, at least it's not completely weird once you understand what's going on
20:02:42 <kmc> ais523: why not?
20:02:44 <ais523> but with declaration follows use, the resulting syntaxes are beautifully bizarre
20:02:50 <zzo38> Some new things are allowed in GNU C though
20:02:55 <Bike> "char * const (*(* const bar)[5])(int )" lol
20:03:37 <kmc> when you get types that complex the only reasonable approach is typedefs
20:03:50 <Bike> ok let me see if i can untangle it without this site
20:03:50 <ais523> let's see; function taking void, returning pointer to int[2], would be by declaration-follows-use int *(func(void))[2]
20:03:50 <kmc> lots of typedefs
20:04:22 <FreeFull> FireFly: What does int typedef foo; mean?
20:04:40 <FireFly> `typedef` is just a storage specifiec IIRC
20:04:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: typedef`: not found
20:05:26 <pikhq> ais523: I think you might need to write that as "int *(func(void))[static 2]" to have it not be literally the same as returning an int**. :)
20:05:31 <ais523> cdecl translates "declare f as function (void) returning pointer to array 2 of int" to "int (*f(void ))[2]"
20:05:47 <ais523> pikhq: doesn't it returns a variably modified type anyway?
20:06:18 <pikhq> Yes, but with [static 2] it's a constraint violation to return a buffer with fewer than 2 elements.
20:06:29 <Bike> sweet, i got my segfault again
20:06:35 <Bike> woooyeah livin the dream
20:06:39 <kmc> [static 2] is a wonderfully obscure corner of C99 :)
20:06:42 <kmc> along with [*]
20:06:49 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of it. :)
20:06:54 <kmc> I think I learned it from you here :)
20:06:56 <FireFly> I'm not even sure what that does
20:07:02 <kmc> int [fungot 2];
20:07:02 <fungot> kmc: i don't think you can make clumsy, kludgey workarounds. the interviewee thought it was
20:07:04 <zzo38> I do not like those features of C99
20:07:10 <pikhq> The really nice thing about [static 2] is, it even *has a point*.
20:07:20 <Bike> honestly i think i'd be happy just if [] went on the type instead of the name
20:07:27 <pikhq> zzo38: int foo[static 1] is a non-nullable pointer. :)
20:07:28 <Bike> and function pointer type syntax just... died in a hole somewhere
20:07:31 <FireFly> fungot does not approve of C99's obscure corners
20:07:39 <fungot> FireFly: though right now i'm putting the finishing touches on it.)
20:07:43 <kmc> it's stronger than just a non-nullable pointer
20:07:55 <zzo38> pikhq: Such thing is worthless as far as I can tell.
20:07:57 <kmc> [static 2] is a promise to the compiler, right? not anything the compiler will check for you (unless you get lucky with warnings)
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20:08:14 <FireFly> I found a bunch of things I thought was weird when I looked through http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/ANSI-C-grammar-y.html once
20:08:30 <pikhq> [static 1] is *essentially* a non-nullable pointer though. As it guarantees it'll point to a valid buffer with at least one element.
20:08:31 <Bike> hm i think i need to queue up a read even though it's synced to host memory
20:08:38 <ais523> #include <stdlib.h>\\int (*f(void ))[2] {\ return malloc (2 * sizeof (int));\}\\int main(void) {\ int (*x)[2] = f();\ free(x);\ return 0;\}
20:08:44 <ais523> (that's a C program with \ rather than newline)
20:08:47 <ais523> does actually compile and run
20:09:02 <kmc> pikhq: it's non-nullable but it also has to point to memory which is mapped, and is of the appropriate type
20:09:23 <Bike> btw: in this thing there's a setup to wait for something on the event queue to finish, but you can also specify that the i/o operation you're enqueuing should block
20:09:28 <pikhq> It can't be UB to dereference it. Slightly stronger, yeah.
20:09:39 <Bike> There Is More Than One Way To Do It And They're All Kind Of Weird
20:10:27 <zzo38> Do you think the way BLISS does it is better? Nice features of BLISS are not found in C or any other modern programming languages I know of.
20:11:03 <kmc> is C a modern programming language? it's more like a coelacanth to me
20:11:14 <zzo38> What does "coelacanth" mean?
20:11:26 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:11:31 <Bike> The coelacanth is a fish famous for being "evolutionarily old".
20:11:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:11:41 <kmc> it's a type of fish which has not evolved much in the past 400 million years
20:11:42 <Bike> the species has been "basically the same" for "a very long time"
20:12:05 <kmc> they're kinda ugly
20:12:35 <pikhq> It's believed to be closely related with the first tetrapods.
20:12:44 <Bike> refer to previous message
20:12:52 <Bike> anyway the point is that C isn't a modern programming language, says kmc
20:13:00 <Bike> but it's still kickin'
20:13:08 <Bike> or not, since it doesn't have legs, just fins
20:13:11 <kmc> C will outlive the human race
20:13:28 <Bike> what, did we put it on some space probe?
20:13:35 <zzo38> And my opinion is that C99 and C11 and so on are trying to improve C in the wrong way.
20:13:52 <Bike> zzo is strongly opposed to jaws and adaptive immune systems
20:14:05 <Bike> ~biology joke~
20:14:54 <Bike> oh, i suppose coelacanths have those. boring.
20:15:26 <Bike> gonna go bunch a shark
20:15:49 <Bike> btw the way bones develop is completely insane, i see why sharks don't wanna
20:15:55 <Bike> they look like tampons with a billion eyes......................
20:16:00 <ion> :-D http://ponzi.io/
20:16:22 <kmc> ion: yeah wtf
20:16:27 <kmc> the sound of a thousand economists' heads exploding
20:16:58 <Bike> are these numbers real...
20:17:36 <Bike> "STILL WAITING TO MY 0.017728BTC FROM YESTERDAY. 3-4 TIMES WORKED FOR ME THEN GRABBED ALL MY MONEY." holy shit
20:17:39 <Bike> this is beautiful
20:17:56 <Bike> STOP INVEST IF YOU WANT TO LOOOSE YOUR MONEY!
20:18:25 <zzo38> Support for zero length arrays is a good way to improve C.
20:19:19 <Bike> ok so that amount of BTC is about twelve bucks right now
20:19:27 <Bike> makes it even better.
20:19:48 <ais523> 1BTC is such a large unit that it's hard to get a mental grasp on it
20:20:08 <ais523> I'm not clicking the link, but is that site basically a ponzi scheme that's totally upfront about it?
20:20:23 <Bike> and it has two hundred something btc in it.
20:20:46 <Bike> if .01 btc is about twelve bucks, 1 btc is 1200 bucks. more than that cos of the other digits. that's not hard to grasp.
20:20:48 <ais523> wait, isn't that like a hundred thousand dollars?
20:21:05 <Bike> beautiful, isn't it?
20:21:13 <kmc> they've taken in about $160,000 yeah
20:21:16 <kmc> and paid out most of it
20:21:28 <kmc> because of how bitcoin works you can at least verify that everyone in the past has gotten paid back
20:21:34 <ais523> oh, I thought that's the amount they kept for themselves
20:22:00 <Bike> i kind of doubt anyone who'd set this up feels btc are worth it :p
20:22:06 <FreeFull> I wonder if I can shorten this to use fewer than 29 parts
20:22:37 <zzo38> Other thing to improve C would be to make "extern static" to be allowed, but I don't think any version of any C standard is allowing it.
20:23:11 <kmc> they have a point that this might be a money laundering scheme
20:23:15 <kmc> but not a sustainable one
20:23:25 <kmc> a typical laundry would pay back less that 100% of what you put in...........
20:24:01 <kmc> "butbuob: Show HN: Litecoin Ponzi Scheme written in Rust"
20:25:38 <kmc> zzo38: I think GCC does but I don't know if it has the semantics you want
20:25:44 <kmc> what do you think "extern static" should mean
20:27:13 <kmc> GCC has static inline and extern inline
20:27:26 <kmc> and the traditional GCC meaning of extern inline is the opposite of the C99 meaning :(
20:27:59 <Bike> elliott_________: are you faulting my awesome math
20:29:03 <Bike> someone who was a huge jerk would point out that if .017 BTC = $12 then 1.7 BTC = $1200, and i rounded the wrong way. luckily we don't have any of those here.
20:29:48 <Bike> ugh i can't figure out why this is segfaulting
20:30:04 <kmc> did you get a backtrace from a debugger
20:30:24 <Bike> nahhhhhh just segmentation fault (core dumped)
20:30:37 <Bike> i can see what call causes it but i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong, is all
20:31:05 <kmc> well the debugger might help you determine that
20:34:10 <zzo38> kmc: What does GCC do with it?
20:34:20 <kmc> gdb --args ./myprog whatever args
20:34:26 <kmc> then 'run'
20:34:37 <kmc> when it crashes you'll be back at the gdb prompt and you can type 'bt' for a backtrace
20:34:44 <kmc> you should also compile with -g and with no optimizations
20:35:07 <Bike> well i g uess i gotta learn gdb sometime
20:35:34 <zzo38> But what does "extern static" do in GCC if anything, and what are the GCC and C99 meanings of "extern inline"?
20:36:24 <kmc> zzo38: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2006-11/msg00006.html
20:36:42 <kmc> Bike: yeah. gdb is super fancy but knowing how to do the 5 most basic things is very useful
20:37:19 <kmc> Bike: valgrind is also very useful for debugging memory errors in C, particularly in the cases where you *don't* get a crash or the crash happens a while after the incorrect memory use
20:37:38 <Bike> well, unsurprisingly, bt shows it's two levels deep in the opaque library
20:38:16 <Bike> guess i'll stare at the api some more
20:39:49 <zzo38> kmc: OK, and what for "extern static"?
20:40:13 <kmc> maybe I misremember and it's not allowed
20:40:40 <kmc> yeah foo.c:1:1: error: multiple storage classes in declaration specifiers
20:40:47 <kmc> so what would your "extern static" mean?
20:41:52 <zzo38> I want it to export it but mangle it so that it doesn't interfere with other files having a function of the same name, but otherwise treat it as static
20:42:11 <zzo38> (And if the definition is not given, try to use an external one)
20:45:37 <kmc> so if there's no definition it links to the non-mangled name, but if it is defined it exports with a mangled name?
20:46:25 <zzo38> No, it uses the mangled name either way.
20:46:27 <Vorpal> So I'm in the market for a new GPU. For gaming mostly. Any recommendations wrt. Nvidia vs. AMD at this point? It doesn't matter when booting to windows, and I expect I will have to use the closed source drivers in either case under Linux for full functionality, so, which one is least shitty on Linux currently?
20:46:42 <Vorpal> I use AMD atm, and it works reasonably
20:46:58 <Vorpal> But it provides less performance than under windows in for example minecraft
20:47:39 <ais523> Vorpal: basically the situation is that Nvidia care about their Linux drivers, AMD don't; however, the official Nvidia Linux drivers are both closed-source and excessively corporate
20:47:45 <ais523> they feel like a Windows program
20:47:47 <kmc> zzo38: so the mangling scheme is documented and the user is expected to sometimes declare functions using their mangled name elsewhere?
20:47:55 <kmc> that seems awkward
20:48:20 <ais523> there's also open source drivers for the nvidia drivers, which are missing quite a lot of functionality but otherwise work fine
20:48:22 <Vorpal> ais523, AMD is working for better open source support though, right?
20:48:31 <ais523> and nvidia have been known to help them out from time to time
20:48:46 <ais523> Vorpal: AMD's getting more open wrt source, but the drivers themselves are awful
20:48:57 <elliott_________> given that the two biggest consoles are x86 machines with AMD APUs (which also means ports from consoles in the future are likely going to be more common in general)
20:49:01 <kmc> zzo38: I do like the idea of a declaration that means "either a static in this compilation unit, or extern if none exists"
20:49:06 <Vorpal> ais523, well they are pretty stable at least, they weren't a few years ago
20:49:23 <kmc> but maybe that's already what you get by declaring extern and defining static? is that allowed?
20:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott_________, yep.
20:49:43 <kmc> nope, it isn't
20:49:53 <kmc> anyway that could be useful to have library functions which can be overridden on a per-compilation-unit basis
20:50:03 <kmc> but I don't see the point of exporting the overrides under mangled names
20:50:05 <kmc> (or at all)
20:50:15 <Bike> i have an amd gpu and the proprietary drivers were kind of a pain to install, but now that i've done it i can play hl2 smoothly
20:50:36 -!- itsy has left.
20:50:39 <Vorpal> elliott_________, why the excessive underscores btw?
20:50:44 <Bike> "pain to install" includes "i can't use xorg 15"
20:50:45 <zzo38> kmc: No you have to declare them using "extern static" elsewhere too, and then give the definition in a file. However you would need to know which file it belongs to if you want to mangle the name, so I have elsewhere wrote about a directive to do so.
20:50:52 <ais523> Vorpal: e had two and I complained
20:51:06 <ais523> you've probably just inspired em to add more
20:51:22 <ais523> anyway, NVidia are probably the Apple of GPUs
20:51:31 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you mean
20:51:50 <Bike> i looked at nvidia gpus but i looked at their cuda site and holy shit is it annoying
20:51:57 <Bike> (good basis for purchases)
20:52:03 <ais523> the stuff mostly works an is high-quality, but doesn't have many user-servicable parts and you're relying on the company to keep doing updates
20:52:13 <zzo38> So, it is a way to make something like namespaces except that there is no interference with other namespaces having the same name.
20:52:15 <Vorpal> ais523, right, and AMD is what?
20:52:40 <ais523> Vorpal: some weird generic brand name manufacturer you've never heard of but their stuff seems to work
20:52:52 <ais523> there are loads of them in any electronics store
20:53:56 <fizzie> To set the record straight, while typedef indeed is ("for syntactic convenience only", C11 6.7.1p5) a storage-class specifier, and so is "static", "const" is not; it's a type qualifier instead.
20:54:51 <ais523> that's because you can put consts in the middle of an expression and they change meaning depending on where they are
20:55:25 <fizzie> Arguably it's also because they serve different functions.
20:55:45 <Bike> i just realized something. records are circular
20:56:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of photography, I tried to do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RevLensMac.png today, but as I'm missing an adapter ring (the one I ordered was broken) I had to do it with a less then optimal pair of lenses, and the end results... leave something to be desired: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140208-pi2.jpg
20:58:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, interesting, but who was speaking of photography? ;P
20:58:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure we were, at some point during the preceding year or so.
20:58:46 <Vorpal> Also what is the thing on the left?
20:59:11 <fizzie> I think it's the surface of one of the ICs.
20:59:58 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140208-pi3.jpg is how close I can get with the regular lenses, and I think that closeup is from the four R15 resistors and that Samsung chip there.
21:00:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the benefit of doing this reverse lens thing? I never heard of it before
21:00:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Lots of magnification without having to get a proper "macro" lens that can focus real close.
21:01:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, Also I would suggesting using a smaller shutter perhaps?
21:01:12 <Vorpal> The focus is *very* narrow
21:01:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Stopping down the aperture kept increasing the amount of vignetting, sadly.
21:02:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean the black circle thing or normal vignetting?
21:03:01 <fizzie> I believe it should work better with a large-aperture lens as the reversed one, but I couldn't use the one I have because of that missing adapter ring.
21:03:42 <fizzie> Also the whole contraption was something like at least half a metre long, and my tiny mini-tripod just couldn't hold it up. And it could focus only something like 1-3 cm away from the end of the reversed lens. So it wasn't exactly a practical thing.
21:04:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah a larger tripod might be a good idea
21:05:51 <fizzie> I do have a regular tripod, but I couldn't maneuver it close enough to the TV stand I had the RPi on, because of the legs. (And when I tried to "tilt" it by making one leg longer, it started to fall over.)
21:06:00 <kmc> this e-mount macro lens is $300 :/
21:06:17 <fizzie> Perhaps I'll experiment more when I get a non-broken ring, it should be in the mail.
21:06:42 <kmc> i should probably get an adapter and some cheaper macro lens though, but I'm such a lazy noob that I probably wouldn't use it right
21:07:05 <kmc> but mushrooms have such nice details to capture
21:07:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't you extend/retract the legs on your tripod? Or did that not help either?
21:07:22 <ais523> btw, this reddit thread is really confusing me: http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/1xa9rj/i_have_been_writing_a_pseudoroguelike_mmorpg_with/
21:07:28 <zzo38> I don't have any gamepad for use with my computer; if I did then I might design some two-player Famicom game using it, and in fact I have a idea of such a thing too: It is something like a Pokemon battle game, but there is some differences for example there is only eight element types (all balanced), and you can attack only one at a time but can switch your primary/secondary as you attack.
21:07:48 <ais523> why did anyone think it was a good idea to write an MMO where you fight monsters by editing Clojure code using regexes?
21:07:58 <ais523> it seems to have found an audience, anyway
21:08:08 <zzo38> The eight element types are: North, South, Alien, Magic, Air, Insect, Slime, Abnormal.
21:08:21 <fizzie> kmc: An "extension tube" (that basically just moves the lens and therefore lowers the minimum focus distance) is often a pretty cheap option, I believe. (It doesn't get to as large magnifications as a macro lens, and you need to get closer, but at least it's just an empty tube and therefore often reasonably priced.)
21:09:24 <zzo38> And same type attack bonus not only gives bonus to damage but gives a bonus to priority as well.
21:09:35 <fizzie> kmc: Or so I've read, anyway. My father's got some M42 mount lenses and an extension tube set from the 1960s-1970s, I've been thinking of getting a $7 M42-to-EF adapter and borrowing those.
21:10:11 <ais523> zzo38: there's some of that in the latest Pokémon game, in X/Y there's a Flying Pokémon that gets a priority boost on Flying moves
21:10:14 <ais523> it's a really powerful ability
21:10:49 <zzo38> ais523: Is it overriding speed or adding to the speed, and how much?
21:11:03 <ais523> "At level 0, you will only be able to match and substitute up to 10 characters, and you won't yet have access to []+*|)( and other regular expression "sigils." You can see that even with the most basic monster, it will take conscious effort to figure out useful spells to cast."
21:11:07 <ais523> zzo38: it adds 1 priority
21:11:21 <ais523> which is the difference between Tackle and Quick Attack, or Quick Attack and Extremespeed
21:11:52 <zzo38> My way is adding 2 speed rather than 1 priority, and applies to all types/attacks.
21:12:34 <pikhq> ais523: Wait, really? Jeeze, that is quite powerful.
21:12:37 <ais523> 2 speed as in speed points on the status screen (that's hardly anything)? or as in 2 stages (i.e. Agility)?
21:12:51 <ais523> pikhq: yeah, very powerful, I can see why it's limited to one Pokémon
21:12:56 <zzo38> As in two points on the status screen
21:13:07 <zzo38> But, this is before stages are applied.
21:14:00 <zzo38> Where the speed is 0 to 245, and up to ten can be added due to bonuses so it is 255 at maximum.
21:14:11 <pikhq> Cripes. Hidden ability Talonflame is crazy then.
21:14:26 <zzo38> pikhq: What does that one do?
21:14:47 <pikhq> Exactly what we've been talking about. Flying moves get a priority boost.
21:14:47 <Vorpal> <ais523> why did anyone think it was a good idea to write an MMO where you fight monsters by editing Clojure code using regexes? <-- that sounds amusing for 5 minutes
21:18:23 <ais523> Vorpal: apparently they want to commercially release this, and quite a few people are saying "that sounds interesting" despite it not being on a programming-based subreddit
21:18:31 <ais523> with a monthly fee for playing
21:18:51 <Vorpal> ais523, eeh, I'm not sure that would work out. As a free game jam thingy? Sure
21:19:09 <ais523> in a sense I /want/ to see it work out because it's so unusual
21:19:20 <ais523> but I don't expect it to
21:19:47 <Vorpal> ais523, Well yes, but I wouldn't want to play it myself. It sounds way too much like work to me these days. I have been coding much less in my spare time recently, doing other stuff instead
21:20:16 <zzo38> Such a thing you described with using regex to fight, seem like not so good as it is written but perhaps made as a single-player puzzle game, may be interesting.
21:20:35 <zzo38> (Where, any level is fixed based on the puzzle and not based on your level)
21:26:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, almost forgot to mention, I also did a moon comparison thing: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140206-mooncomp.jpg
21:29:13 <Bike> segfaults are so fucking frustrating
21:29:22 <kmc> Bike: and yet they're pretty much the best case outcome
21:29:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, new/old as in?
21:29:43 <Bike> compared to scribbling all over ram?
21:30:03 <kmc> yeah, a segfault is a memory handling mistake which happened to be caught by the hardware / OS
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21:30:15 <kmc> (though it could be the consequence of another mistake which was not)
21:30:35 <Vorpal> kmc, unless of course it segfaults in a different location every time. In which case you might have a threading issue or some sort of heap corruption or...
21:30:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Old and new camera. Old picture was from 2009, and it's entirely coincidental that the moon phase is such a close match, I hadn't even looked at the old picture before taking the new one.
21:31:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, why the colour difference? Camera or atmospheric conditions?
21:32:05 <Bike> god damn it what did i do wrong
21:33:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly both. The old one was not terribly good when it came to white balance. (Especially the AWB, so I may have had it set to some suboptimal preset.)
21:33:38 <fizzie> I guess it should be recorded in the Exif data.
21:34:43 <fizzie> "White Balance: Daylight". Well, it's... reflected daylight?
21:35:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, my old camera (which is my current camera that is) has a button to set the white balance from a neutral color you put in front of it
21:35:49 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x9gue/my_protest_at_mtgox_offices_5_to_7th_february/
21:35:52 <kmc> "I was told that up until a few weeks [at time of the interview] ago, there was hardly any development environment to test changes. Most changes were done straight on the production environment. Typing this made me throw up in my mouth."
21:37:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Both "old" and "new" can do custom white balance, and I used to use it quite a lot with the old one, though (somewhat disappointingly) the workflow to do so is less practical in the new one. (Old one has a menu option to take a custom-WB shot; for new one you need to take a picture, and *then* go to a menu and select that picture as source for custom WB.)
21:37:44 <fizzie> Wonder what a "Light Source: Fine Weather" Exif entry means.
21:38:00 <fizzie> I don't think there are any weather sensors in the camera.
21:38:56 <fizzie> Seems to be a redundant way to say "White Balance: Daylight".
21:39:09 <kmc> if MtGox collapses and there's panic selling maybe I should buy some Bitcoins finally
21:39:21 <kmc> they're only 20% of the bitcoin-to-real-money market now: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/
21:40:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch. Mine just has a button that greys out everything except the center of the display, and then when you release it, it takes a photo and uses the area in the middle as the reference
21:40:48 <Bike> lol they call real money "fiat"
21:41:16 <kmc> bitcoin is even more fiat than fiat, though
21:41:20 <copumpkin> elliott_________: you've grown a long tail since I last saw you
21:41:33 <copumpkin> kmc: depends who's doing the fiat-ing, I suppose
21:41:42 <kmc> yeah but by at least one of the common definitions
21:41:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's approximately how it worked in the old one, though you navigated a menu to get there. (Also you could select one out of two slots to save the custom balance as.)
21:42:03 <copumpkin> if you make that definition broad enough, you could shove gold into the fiat designation too
21:43:15 <copumpkin> kmc: if you decide to buy and want to do it OTC with someone, let me know and I can probably help you find a counterparty (might end up being cheaper with less hassle than an exchange)
21:43:15 <Vorpal> copumpkin, also cars. *hides*
21:43:18 <kmc> aside from industrial uses, it depends on whether you think the human aesthetic / cultural appreciation of gold is more "real" than the value of dollars
21:43:24 <kmc> copumpkin: haha okay
21:44:12 <kmc> well you can't charge much fee as an OTC matchmaker who doesn't assume counterparty risk ;P
21:44:33 <copumpkin> hey, I can set you up with the most trustworthy people in the community! what's not to love!
21:44:39 <Bike> all i see is fire and void
21:45:16 <copumpkin> I've also been known to escrow for people to do that sort of stuff
21:45:19 <kmc> do OTC BTC-USD transactions typically happen through escrow?
21:45:38 <copumpkin> if you like getting scammed, go for an unauthenticated stranger
21:46:11 <copumpkin> the more savvy tend to just go with reputable people and the less reputable of the pair sends first
21:46:17 <copumpkin> and even more savvy will go with escrow
21:46:56 <ais523> there should be some sort of cryptographically sound way to exchange arbitrary cryptocoins with each other even if they're on different chains
21:48:40 <ais523> credit cards are, though
21:48:45 <ais523> not a very good cryptocurrency, though
21:49:22 <Bike> i googled for an opencl irc channel and it's all bitcoin mining
21:50:03 <kmc> ais523: oh?
21:50:10 <kmc> how would it work
21:50:44 <ais523> I have no idea, but I guess I have a "this should be cryptographically possible" sense that's comparable to my "this should be TC" sense
21:50:47 <ais523> i.e. not 100% reliable
21:51:15 <kmc> NO WHAT IS THAT AND WHY IS EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT IT
21:51:40 <Bike> kmc: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/02/the-squalid-grace-of-flappy-bird/283526/
21:51:45 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD-nzHy2DdU
21:52:24 <Bike> the trick is to read this article or watch a video or whatever and think "ok then, fuck this" and go back to something practical like making your program segfault a hundred times
21:53:24 <kmc> or read an IRC message
21:53:36 <Bike> you're a prodigy
21:56:54 <kmc> http://www.metalair.org/decentralised-cryptocurrency-exchange/ is trying to do it but they won't share their design work so far
21:58:46 <ais523> kmc: re your original bitcoin link, the hilarious thing is the way that people keep on trying to confirm/deny the story via reference to hitherto unmentioned third party X, and third party X turns up to confirm that their involvement in it is genuine
21:58:55 <ais523> it's like the entire community are reading that reddit thread
21:58:59 <ais523> which is actually pretty believable
22:00:00 <copumpkin> the real useful post is gmaxwell's contribution
22:00:09 <Vorpal> ais523, which link was that?
22:00:16 <kmc> I was mostly amused by the horror story of interviewing there
22:00:24 <copumpkin> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x93tf/some_irc_chatter_about_what_is_going_on_at_mtgox/cf99yac
22:00:35 <ais523> err, not the one copumpkin linked
22:00:51 <ais523> it's about 1 and a half screenfuls ago on my screen, kmc linked it
22:00:53 <copumpkin> this one, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x9gue/my_protest_at_mtgox_offices_5_to_7th_february/
22:06:40 <kmc> ais523: so one simple approach is that the two parties take turns exchanging small quantities of money until the whole transfer is consummated
22:08:12 <kmc> this will be pretty slow with existing cryptocurrencies
22:10:35 <ais523> I know someone developed a bitcoin mixer that doesn't require any of the participants to trust any of the others
22:10:41 <ais523> but that might require protocol adpatations
22:13:13 <kmc> zerocoin was originally designed as that, yeah, and it does require protocol changes
22:13:39 <kmc> now it's going to be a separate currency because in the words of the designer, "If people will put money into Dogecoin, they’ll put it into anything"
22:13:52 <kmc> so it's a new cryptocurrency with true anonymity
22:13:54 <ais523> the designer is probably correct there
22:14:17 <kmc> I also know about a Bitcoin mixer that ran for a while using RSA blind signing
22:14:46 <kmc> so you still trust the central party not to take your money, but they can't reveal which coins were exchanged for which, even under torture / subpoena
22:15:12 <ais523> oh, btw, for everyone who was wondering why imgur didn't work on my computer no matter which browser I was using, and continued to not work even when I accessed the internet from a hotel in France
22:15:26 <ais523> I eventually discovered it was due to an entry I'd added in the hosts file that had gone out of date
22:15:32 <kmc> and here's another design http://blog.ezyang.com/2012/07/secure-multiparty-bitcoin-anonymization/
22:15:35 <ais523> that's somewhere to check next time
22:16:12 <ais523> must have been back when the DNS was being buggy
22:16:38 <zzo38> Are you able to make some more Attribute Zone levels if I have made up the program?
22:26:32 <copumpkin> that ponzi.io is doing pretty well
22:26:44 <copumpkin> back in the day we had bitcoinduit which worked the same way
23:18:45 <Bike> after much wailing and mashing of teeth i have written a gpgpu program
23:19:30 <kmc> the last time I did that was in 2007, back when you still had to pretend that your data represented red, green, blue values in a texture
23:19:46 <Bike> pretty sure this means i'm basically a bitcoin trillionaire already
23:19:53 <kmc> itym dogecoin
23:20:30 <Bike> isn't it called "digging" or something with dogecoin
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23:39:33 <FireFly> I wonder how WebCL is going..
23:40:20 <Bike> what, so you can mine from firefox?
23:40:59 <ais523> hopefully the cryptocoin craze will lead to actual useful developments in GPGPU technology
23:41:21 <FireFly> So I can play with the GPU from JS
23:41:46 <FireFly> ...for purposes other than mining *coins
23:42:15 <ais523> games that run entirely on the GPU?
23:42:23 <ais523> you could have massively parallel control of thousands of characters
23:42:30 <ais523> it'd be good for collision processing too
23:42:30 <Bike> general purpose game processing unit
23:42:39 <ais523> the hard part would be screen transitions
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00:19:56 <zzo38> I have idea about a CPU design that has one external pin to tell whether to use microcode ROM or microcode RAM, which contains VLIW instructions, and the cache is in the same microcode RAM.
00:22:24 <zzo38> How well would it work?
00:23:02 <zzo38> (It does mean you can have self-modifying microcodes!!)
00:23:54 <ais523> zzo38: instead of an internal pin, why not have a register that determines that?
00:24:09 <ais523> that way you could change it using software control
00:24:19 <zzo38> Yes it could be a register
00:25:31 <zzo38> Such register could also control supervisor/user microcode mode; however such thing could also be a output pin, so that the components can be wired for supervisor/user mode, too.
00:26:36 <zzo38> And, of course, need a external reset signal to reselect ROM mode and reset some of the other registers too.
00:27:13 <zzo38> Are any existing designs doing anything similar?
00:28:19 <ais523> possibly, but I don't know of one
00:31:30 <zzo38> If internal condition flags are also part of the microcode program counter, and the VLIW includes each instruction has part of a address of next instruction, then you don't need branch instructions, especially if self-modifying codes are possible. You could also have multicore VLIW.
00:33:19 <oerjan> ais523: i have a hunch you could merge the header and the 523 padding by making more copies of the header instead...
00:33:57 <ais523> oerjan: oh, that would work for the after-padding, there's no actual reason to use a whole number of copies of the header
00:34:10 <ais523> (that's me assuming the language was simpler than it was, because I was in tarpit mode)
00:34:33 <ais523> yeah, you could make a bunch of copies of the header, and then use a larger repeat count on the alphabet
00:34:52 <ais523> to fill the before-padding with header copies and after-padding with stray bits of alphabet
00:35:08 <oerjan> why a larger repeat count?
00:35:14 <ais523> then you could remove the after-padding altogether, actually, because its only purpose is for somewhere to put the unused bits of alphabet
00:35:28 <ais523> you can't generate fractional repeats with resplicate
00:35:31 <ais523> so the after-padding needs to stay
00:35:50 <oerjan> i am referring to the initial padding
00:36:25 <ais523> this doesn't give a clear way to remove the final padding
00:39:49 <ais523> so may not make much sense
00:41:09 <oerjan> well it's a little subtle anyway, because the number of 523's in the initial padding seems to be odd, but i _think_ removing the 3 integers that generate them will turn the necessary padding even so the header can be used
00:41:40 <ais523> what's interesting is if it's possible to prove resplicate TC even with no misaligned copies (i.e. any sequence of numbers that's copied with a copy count other than 0 must have existed in the original program, and must have all been copied into the program in one block)
00:42:12 <ais523> I think you might be able to do it using two layers of escaping
00:44:07 <oerjan> oh wait my idea has trouble, removing those will make the number of integers per rule potentially odd
00:44:18 <ais523> that's not a problem in this construction
00:44:24 <ais523> it always knows where the IP is anyway
00:45:12 <oerjan> it's a problem for my "replace 523's by header" construction, because that requires that the length of total initial padding always be even
00:45:51 <oerjan> non-alphabet padding, that is
00:58:40 <oerjan> ais523: it seems hard to handle non-misaligned copies in a single pass through the queue
00:58:58 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, I think I'd do two passes
00:59:24 <oerjan> which means every tag command becomes O(n) in the whole queue length
01:00:12 <ais523> actually, the way I was going to do it avoids that issue, but leads to problems if you have an odd number of tag commands in the queue at any major iteration
01:00:14 <kmc> ais523: I think games are a much bigger driver for GPUs and game technology than cryptocoins...
01:00:38 <ais523> kmc: games mostly don't care about GPGPU stuff, though, apart from stuff like PhysX
01:00:52 <kmc> I don't think that's true
01:01:07 <ais523> although the line between GPGPU and just regular old graphics processing is pretty blurred nowadays
01:01:54 <ais523> oerjan: you get each command to produced escaped output, then the entire queue unescapes at once into a new unescaped queue
01:02:09 <ais523> the problem being that you then have to be able to skip over commands without knowing whether they're escaped or not
01:02:28 <ais523> it might be possible to make escaped and unescaped commands the same length though
01:03:07 <Bike> kmc: iunno, i mean i don't think Valve needs to care about OpenCL to not make half life 3
01:13:51 <pikhq> Shaders are a pretty common thing in games anymore.
01:14:05 <zzo38> Is it possible to download a SQLite database of chess games?
01:14:12 <Bike> is there a typo in there pikhq?
01:14:24 <kmc> fungots are a pretty common thing in games
01:14:24 <fungot> kmc: not really. only looking at the new dilbert.com rejecting linux typing tutors out there for other languages too
01:14:49 <pikhq> Bike: I don't see a typo.
01:14:50 <kmc> speaking of dilbert http://www.dilbert.com/2014-02-07/
01:15:04 <Bike> pikhq: i just didn't expect "anymore" without a negative
01:15:20 <Bike> anyway doesn't GL handle shaders
01:15:27 <Bike> maybe i should look at glsl again. as if i have any reason to
01:15:28 <pikhq> That's perfectly mundane English.
01:15:34 <Bike> yeah, just unexpected.
01:16:00 <kmc> hey did you all see this paper on x86 shellcode which looks like valid English text? http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~sam/ccs243-mason.pdf
01:16:17 <Bike> when was it published? i read one in like, 2011 or some shit
01:16:26 <ais523> pikhq: I don't consider pixel/vertex/geometry shaders to be GPGPU because they only really make sense for specific purposes in graphics rendering
01:16:31 <Bike> what kind of thing goes into a shader anyway. i thought shade was fairly straightforward
01:16:36 <kmc> 2009. probably this one then
01:16:38 <pikhq> ais523: Fair enough.
01:16:39 <Bike> i mean, insofar as any kind of optics is
01:16:41 <ais523> as was seen when people tried to use them for non-graphics stuff
01:16:52 <Bike> "so, not straightforward, bike"
01:16:56 <ais523> Bike: "shader" has somehow become the name for "arbitrary program which a GPU runs for each pixel/vertex"
01:17:09 <Bike> so what kinds of programs are there?
01:17:17 <kmc> Bike: a shader (or one kind of shader, anyway) gets called for every pixel in a polygon and computes an arbitrary function for what the color should be at that pixel
01:17:23 <ais523> presumably because traditionally what you're doing is loading a texture and applying lighting effects to it
01:17:34 <ais523> which can quite sensibly be described as "shading"
01:17:34 <kmc> it knows the position in 3D space, the normal at that point, it can access various textures, can do matrix math, etc.
01:17:38 <Bike> i know a guy who works on turbulence, i really shouldn't be so blase about optics
01:17:39 <ais523> but really you can do pretty much anything
01:17:46 <Bike> well i mean. what do people actually do with it.
01:17:53 <kmc> so the original use is to model all kinds of different surface textures
01:18:01 <kmc> you can make something look bumpy without having a bunch of triangles for every bump
01:18:13 <ais523> vertex shaders are cheap compared to pixel shaders
01:18:15 <Bike> think i've heard of that...
01:18:21 <ais523> because there are way more pixels onscreen than vertices
01:18:26 <pikhq> In emulator-land it's coming to be pretty popular for applying effects to the rendered frame.
01:18:36 <kmc> yes, they're also great for "full-screen" video effects
01:18:45 <kmc> colorspace conversion, blur, HDR rendering, whatever
01:19:34 <kmc> Bike: a key part of doing fancy things with shaders is that you can render scenes to a texture
01:19:53 <kmc> that's one application yeah
01:20:06 <kmc> but more generally, it lets you capture the output of the gfx pipeline and use it later in another pipeline
01:20:11 <Bike> And then you'd want to add effects if it's a dirty mirror or something
01:20:13 <kmc> and that was key to the first GPGPU stuff too
01:20:34 <kmc> I wrote a GPGPU "particle simulator" where every (r,g,b) pixel in a texture is actually an (x,y,z) coordinate of a particle
01:20:39 <kmc> so the "texture" would just look like noise
01:20:48 <kmc> but you have a shader that updates these positions and writes it to another "texture"
01:21:01 <kmc> and another shader that draws the particles to the screen by reading from this "texture"
01:22:00 <kmc> in web browsers you render groups of HTML elements to textures and then composite them together
01:22:08 <kmc> this allows things like CSS transforms to happen smoothly
01:22:19 <kmc> you don't re-render the element, you just alter its position, rotation, etc. in compositing
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01:22:58 <kmc> in fact the compositor also renders into textures; it renders the page into a set of 512x512 tiles or so
01:23:05 <kmc> which enables fast scrolling
01:23:14 <ais523> how much video memory do GPUs normally have nowadays?
01:23:18 <kmc> because you can keep some of the tiles off the edge of the screen around in memory
01:23:29 <ais523> when I learned programming, you had to be careful not to waste it, but I imagine that isn't really an issue now
01:23:35 <pikhq> ais523: 1 to 8 gigs, depending on how cheap/not cheap it is.
01:23:39 <kmc> on mobile browsers when you scroll off of what's rendered you see a grey or checkerboard area, which then fills in
01:23:49 <ais523> err, yeah, that's not really an issue
01:23:57 <pikhq> Much less for integrated GPUs though.
01:24:11 <pikhq> You might end up having a carved-off 256MB chunk instead there.
01:24:33 <kmc> I thought these days integrated GPUs (integrated to CPU, not motherboard) would use all available RAM, by cooperating with the OS
01:24:45 <kmc> and this also means CPU-GPU transfers can be really fast
01:24:51 <kmc> well that's how the PS4 works anyway ;P
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01:25:04 <kmc> it has a single chunk of GDDR5 for CPU and GPU
01:27:05 <ais523> CPU-GPU transfers are normally really slow (by memory standards), but I've heard the PS4 is an exception to that
01:27:20 <pikhq> Yes, the PS4 doesn't have seperate memory.
01:27:44 <ais523> I know that in SDL2, if you're planning to update a texture frequently, you have to warn the library in advance (although I'm not entirely sure what it changes in response to the warning)
01:29:44 <Bike> uff, what's the printf directive to get a ulong out
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01:30:19 <ais523> incidentally, you can write it as "long unsigned" even outside printf
01:30:23 <ais523> which helps to remember the directive
01:30:52 <ais523> printf clearly can't use %ul because that would be ambiguous, so it went for the next-best option
01:31:08 <kmc> I just remember that 'u' is a base "conversion specifier" and all modifiers come before the specifier
01:31:11 <Bike> can you do "int unsigned"
01:31:28 <Bike> anyawy so my GPU has... 1949302784 bytes global memory
01:33:51 <Bike> and 32768 per unit. seems pretty beefy
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01:48:54 <kmc> so what does your program do Bike?
01:51:45 <Bike> the test one just elementwise squares a vector
01:51:56 <Bike> i was going to do matrix multiplication but i kept thinking of half-baked optimizations >_>
01:52:07 <kmc> there are fancy algos for that aren't there
01:52:24 <kmc> `run uname -a
01:52:25 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
01:52:41 <Bike> yeah. i have an arxiv paper on mediocre-but-useful sparse matrix formats i've yet to read v_v
02:04:37 <kmc> `cdecl declare x as pointer to array 5 of int
02:04:43 <kmc> `cdecl explain int (*x)[5]
02:04:43 <HackEgo> declare x as pointer to array 5 of int
02:05:30 <kmc> `cdecl explain int x[static 5]
02:06:03 <oerjan> hm HackEgo's repository browser is now not just out of date, but gone
02:06:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:06:36 <Bike> kmc: wait, can you declare an int[] like that, not as a parameter
02:07:08 <kmc> foo.c:1:5: error: static or type qualifiers in non-parameter array declarator
02:07:43 <kmc> pikhq: what does int x[volatile 5] mean?
02:09:06 <Bike> does cdecl do things besides explain?
02:09:11 <kmc> `cdecl help
02:09:12 <HackEgo> [] means optional; {} means 1 or more; <> means defined elsewhere \ commands are separated by ';' and newlines \ command: \ declare <name> as <english> \ cast <name> into <english> \ explain <gibberish> \ set or set options \ help, ? \ quit or exit \ english: \ function [( <decl-list> )] returning <english>
02:09:32 <kmc> the main ones are "define" and "explain"
02:09:45 <kmc> there's also "cast"
02:09:53 <Bike> `cdecl cast int into unsigned int
02:09:53 <kmc> `cdecl cast x into pointer to array 5 of char
02:09:54 <pikhq> kmc: Volatile array of 5 elements.
02:10:18 <Bike> oh, i misinterpreted
02:10:27 <kmc> pikhq: so it's the same as volatile int x[5] ?
02:10:46 <kmc> or does an array being volatile mean something different from all its elements being volatile?
02:10:57 <Bike> `cdecl cast fucker[3] into pointer to function of void returning int
02:11:01 <pikhq> I think in an argument it'd be equivalent to "int * volatile x".
02:11:04 <Bike> `cdecl cast fucker[3] into unsigned int
02:11:09 <Bike> is there no hope?
02:11:11 <kmc> Bike: I think it only takes a name for the first argument, not an expression
02:11:12 <Bike> `cdecl cast fucker into unsigned int
02:11:22 <Bike> `cdecl cast fucker into pointer to function of void returning int
02:11:31 <kmc> well they probably don't want to include an expression grammar as well
02:11:34 <Bike> i guess that's probably not a good way to talk about functions
02:11:48 <kmc> `cdecl cast fucker into pointer to function ( ) returning int
02:11:52 <pikhq> `cdecl explain int x[volatile 5]
02:11:54 <kmc> `cdecl cast fucker into pointer to function ( void ) returning int
02:12:12 <Bike> without the void it's uh, it doesn't say anything about what the function takes, right?
02:12:21 <kmc> pikhq: also, is there any use of "pointer to array" types?
02:12:35 <kmc> such as int (*x)[5]
02:14:26 <kmc> i can think of reasons you might write &x when x is an array, but are there reasons to declare such variables / parameters?
02:17:49 <oerjan> <ais523> why did anyone think it was a good idea to write an MMO where you fight monsters by editing Clojure code using regexes? <-- and how come they're not in this channel?
02:20:10 <nooodl> kmc: i guess if you want a 2d array that's dynamic in the first dimension?
02:20:56 <pikhq> I'm not really sure of the uses for those types in general.
02:21:04 <pikhq> Kinda useful when passing around VLAs though.
02:21:25 <pikhq> int (*x)[y][z] for instance?
02:22:33 <kmc> `gccrun int x[5]; int (*y)[5]; y = &x; printf("%p %p %p\n", x, &x, y);
02:22:34 <HackEgo> 0x7fbfcf6c60 0x7fbfcf6c60 0x7fbfcf6c60
02:23:17 <kmc> VLAs considered harmful
02:28:20 <kmc> `cdecl explain int (*x)[2][3]
02:28:21 <HackEgo> declare x as pointer to array 2 of array 3 of int
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02:29:41 <zzo38> How well do you know about compiler optimizations?
02:30:57 <kmc> medium well
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02:31:26 <zzo38> I want your opinions on some kind of Z-machine intermediate codes (for version 5, 7, and 8) which is partially described here: http://sprunge.us/PNXL and there is also seven "special branch targets" which are (number in parentheses indicates number of arguments): RESTART(0), RESTORED(0), RETURN(1), QUIT(0), TAILCALL(8), THROW(2), and UNDEFINED(0).
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02:33:23 <kmc> fungotspeed you! black emperor
02:33:23 <fungot> kmc: i was waiting to hear if anyone is interested
02:33:50 <zzo38> kmc: What does it mean?
02:33:59 <kmc> very little
02:36:28 <shikhin> `gccrun int x[5]; int (*y)[5]; y = &x; printf("%p %p %p %p\n", x, &x, y, &y);
02:36:29 <HackEgo> 0x7fbfd28c60 0x7fbfd28c60 0x7fbfd28c60 0x7fbfd28c58
02:41:31 <zzo38> Do you understand my stuff about this compiler optimizations stuff? How could such optimization be improve?
02:42:04 <kmc> motherfungot=redeemer
02:42:05 <fungot> kmc: but did you try it, you'll just push it on. this individual processing of the url manually if they want to
02:42:11 <kmc> zzo38: sorry, I don't have the time to look into it now
02:42:43 <zzo38> The file linked is actually just two C enumerations
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02:43:14 <zzo38> Although I can explain it is being done with basic blocks and register forwarding format
02:46:54 <zzo38> Which is a kind of single static assignment without phi nodes
02:47:47 <zzo38> Instead, each basic block takes zero or more arguments and cannot use registers from other basic blocks at all
02:49:29 <zzo38> I don't know if such a thing is ever done, but someone described as being combining single static assignment with continuation passing, and that it has some advantages and some disadvantages.
02:51:35 <zzo38> I can see how this is the case.
02:52:40 <zzo38> What can you see about this kind of idea?
02:54:33 <kmc> lift your skinny fungots like antennas to heaven
02:54:33 <fungot> kmc: are people here going to participate too? heh, do you? :)
02:55:50 <zzo38> What antenna do you mean, the TV antenna, the radio antenna, or the antennas on your body? (I only have the second one)
02:56:10 <kmc> but do you have a large barge with a radio antenna on it that you can charge up and discharge?
02:56:25 <zzo38> No, I have no such things
02:56:30 <kmc> you should get one
02:56:38 <zzo38> I have no use for such a thing
02:56:40 <kmc> you could use it for high frequency active auroral research
02:56:54 <kmc> if you are far north enough
02:59:25 <zzo38> How far is enough?
03:00:22 <kmc> 56° apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura_Ionospheric_Heating_Facility
03:02:17 <kmc> i don't really understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_radiated_power
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03:29:20 <zzo38> I recorded my coordinates in Astrolog configuration file, so that is how I refer to and now I know, I am not quite far enough.
03:29:57 <kmc> what are your coördinates?
03:30:25 <zzo38> I don't want to say, but presumably you could figure out approximately by yourself, by using my IP address
03:32:21 <Bike> last time i checked my IP address it geolocated to the wrong state.
03:33:22 <kmc> i remember a system of coördinates which used short alphanumeric strings, which could be as long as the desired precision requires
03:33:30 <kmc> but i don't remember what it's called
03:33:44 <kmc> i think http://www.mapcode.com/ is similar but the thing I remember didn't require a country prefix
03:34:28 <kmc> but i see there are "international mapcodes" too
03:34:55 * kmc is at California 9QF.7C
03:35:27 <zzo38> Does bash have command resembling the F8 command in Windows (which is, autocompletion based on command history)? If so, what is it?
03:37:28 <kmc> creepercoin shoutingcoin wrongfulcoin waivercoin constipatingcoin aciditycoin
03:38:10 <zzo38> OK, I tried it now I can see what it does.
03:40:19 <kmc> does it do what you wanted?
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03:41:50 <zzo38> Kind of, like you said.
03:41:57 * pikhq is at Missouri RC.LNJ or so.
03:42:06 * pikhq also likes that those are relatively short.
03:47:19 <kmc> `cdecl declare fungot as pointer to struct fungot
03:47:41 <kmc> fungot: why no fungot
03:48:59 <kmc> oh fungot won't respond to the same nick more than n times in a row, iirc
04:00:20 <pikhq> fungot, listen to fungotting kmc.
04:00:20 <fungot> pikhq: must convince cow-orkers that i need to rewrite the section on folding enumerators in srfi 44, on the blocking variant. roll over laugh floor.
04:00:57 <kmc> `cdecl declare fungot as pointer to struct fungot
04:00:57 <fungot> kmc: so fiz's free? oh. and is not mentally stimulating!
04:01:06 <kmc> but fungot knows not to listen to HackEgo
04:01:06 <fungot> kmc: any chance one can have a box full of tnt to throw around
04:01:16 <quintopia> i wish i had more access to academic papers
04:01:25 <kmc> i wish i had access to a box full of tnt to throw around
04:01:46 <kmc> `addquote <fungot> kmc: any chance one can have a box full of tnt to throw around
04:01:46 <fungot> kmc: please elaborate. clog's back. :_) ( eval x))
04:01:48 <HackEgo> 1168) <fungot> kmc: any chance one can have a box full of tnt to throw around
04:02:47 <quintopia> @ask ais523 do you know a place where I can find the ruleset for the current 'simplest' universal tag system for free?
04:02:54 * copumpkin just made some awesome chicken tenders
04:05:45 * quintopia specifies a copumpkin-complete penrose tiling
04:11:52 <Sgeo> I should attempt to make SRFI-72-like hygiene in Racket
04:12:44 <kmc> employees must wash hands before returning to evaluator
04:13:17 <Sgeo> Misread that as elevator
04:15:36 <kmc> also a good idea
04:17:52 <kmc> @tell tswett regarding names that have their own names, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haddocks'_Eyes#Naming
04:20:41 <kmc> why is gcc using %rip-relative addressing even in a static binary?
04:20:56 <kmc> perhaps it results in shorter instructions
04:29:59 <kmc> seems to be the case here (by a grand total of one byte)
04:36:10 <kmc> because the ModRM byte for an absolute address is followed by a SIB byte but the ModRM byte for a %rip relative address is not
04:36:18 <kmc> goooooooooooooooood times
04:38:17 <Sgeo> Return to Ravnica has a pretty island
04:38:18 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&multiverseid=289316
04:44:36 <kmc> `run echo 48c7042500004000ffffffff | xxd -r -p | udcli -64
04:44:36 <HackEgo> 0000000000000000 48c7042500004000 mov qword [0x400000], 0xffffffffffffffff \ -ffffffff
04:44:43 <kmc> `run echo 48c70500004000ffffffff | xxd -r -p | udcli -64
04:44:44 <HackEgo> 0000000000000000 48c70500004000ff mov qword [rip+0x400000], 0xffffffffffffffff \ -ffffff
04:46:25 <kmc> `run <<<48c70500004000ffffffff xxd -r -p | udcli -64
04:46:26 <HackEgo> 0000000000000000 48c70500004000ff mov qword [rip+0x400000], 0xffffffffffffffff \ -ffffff
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05:55:06 <kmc> TIL the mascot for GDB is an archerfish, known for their ability to shoot down bugs by spitting water
05:55:09 <kmc> https://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/mascot/
05:55:49 <Bike> archerfish are cool as hell. you know they exploit fluid dynamics to give the spit enough momentum
05:56:42 <Bike> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/11/archerfish-physics/
05:56:52 <Bike> pretty sure that links the paper
05:57:43 <Bike> http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2013/11/archerfish-spitting-2.gif pew pew
05:59:23 <Bike> yeah, there it is http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0047867
06:01:35 <Bike> that kind of "oh damn that's pretty clever i didn't even know that was possible" thing kinda works for gdb too, eh
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06:17:15 <Bike> kmc: does the linux kernel have garbage collection on some resources? i thought it did but i'm blanking
06:22:31 <kmc> unix sockets
06:23:34 <kmc> since you can send a socket through a socket and it might sit in a kernel buffer forever
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06:24:41 <kmc> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v3.12/net/unix/garbage.c
06:25:08 <kmc> probably there are lots of others http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=garbage+collect
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06:27:49 <Bike> man, look at all these
06:28:50 <kmc> does the "mov is Turing-complete" paper address the issue that x86 isn't actually turing complete due to finite memory?
06:29:01 <kmc> it doesn't seem to
06:29:10 <Bike> generalized 86
06:31:29 <Bike> hm, they're mostly filesystems
06:33:23 <zzo38> If the cache is disabled you could make a memory-mapped port to allow access to unbounded memory?
06:35:28 <kmc> yeah but that's not very meaningful
06:35:39 <kmc> because a finite state machine is also turing-complete if you give it a port to access unbounded memory
06:36:34 <zzo38> But do finite state machines have ports?
06:36:54 <kmc> not exactly but you see what i'm getting at?
06:36:56 <zzo38> A CPU doesn't even have external memory if none is added to it!
06:37:14 <zzo38> But yes I can see what you are saying nevertheless.
06:37:22 <kmc> fungot: do you see what i'm saying?
06:37:22 <fungot> kmc: that is as direct as c programs " program"? the real one that i reported seems to be built over the regular scheme mode with slime48, or you can
06:38:31 <kmc> zzo38: you don't talk to fungot do you?
06:39:08 <zzo38> kmc: I don't generally need to do so.
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07:29:48 <Jafet> “Fan-made patches fix a notorious bug which results in the game always resetting to the easiest difficulty level [...]. This glitch was not noticed by MicroProse and was not fixed in the official patches, resulting in the very high difficulty of the sequel due to many complaints from veteran players who believed that the original game was still too easy even on seemingly higher levels.”
07:30:11 <Jafet> (... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-COM:_Terror_from_the_Deep#Reception )
07:38:52 <zzo38> Maybe someone want a very high difficulty though.
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08:51:58 <fizzie> Nice fish drawings in that Wired article.
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09:03:11 <Sgeo> What episode of ST:TNG should I watch?
09:03:47 <Bike> ^"Darkcoin uses an algorithm called X11. Hence name because it uses 11 different hashing algorithms to solve a block. The algorithms are Blake, BMW, Groestl, JH, Keccak, Skein, Luffa, Cubehash, Shavite, SIMD, and Echo."
09:05:06 <Bike> it's the first fully anonymous cryptocurrency
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10:04:37 <Sgeo> Totally a comprehensible name
10:04:57 <Sgeo> class2.mid... now I'm confused, it doesn't sound like classical music
10:05:12 <Sgeo> Well, the instruments don't sound classical, the melody kind of does
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11:20:01 <Sgeo> I may be forced to try a Clozure CL implementation of Braintrust
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11:22:41 <Sgeo> SBCL won't cut it
11:26:37 <Sgeo> As far as I know, ccl:save-application doesn't die, whereas sb-ext:save-application-and-die does die
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12:07:59 <b_jonas> I've put on simple wiki articles about the three functions defined by Smullyan.
12:08:46 <b_jonas> Feel free to categorize them if you're good in categorizing obfu-languages. Also, prove stuff about them. Eg. I'd like to know whether it's algorithmically decidable whether a number is immortal in McCulloch's second machine.
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12:15:14 <fizzie> "Please enjoy the movement in relaxedly bus."
12:15:35 <fizzie> (Trying to Google Translate here.)
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12:20:03 <fizzie> "The women-only space-women-only vehicle, can I ride children (boy)?"
12:34:18 <int-e> A pity. I thought that Data.Sequence would be a good fit for the McCulloch thing, but it lacks a constant time reversal operation ...
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13:17:04 <Taneb> Help I've been trying to actually write programs in Agda
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14:20:27 <shikhin> elliott_________: _______HI!_______
15:02:15 <b_jonas> int-e: that should be no problem, you can define a better tree structure to implement this
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15:38:14 <b_jonas> does the esolang wiki talk about non-deterministic but turing-complete languages like sokoban or super mario?
15:40:15 <ais523> b_jonas: those aren't non-deterministic, the sense in which they're TC involves generalizing them to an infinite repeating pattern and treating it as a constraint-solving exercise
15:40:20 <ais523> as in, the interp tries to find a solution
15:40:24 <ais523> no nondeterminism there
15:41:27 <ais523> quintopia: I don't know where to find a simple universal tag system; it might be possible to find Minsky's turing machine → tag system compiler, though, and I think there's a universal (2,19) turing machine floating around somewhere
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15:42:00 <ais523> also a (2,5) with a repeating initial condition (found by Stephen Wolfram, but his proof it's TC is wrong), and a (2,3) with a really complex initial condition (I think we all know about that one)
15:42:27 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, maybe not turing-complete
15:42:50 <ais523> it does have a category for nondeterministic languages
15:43:31 <ais523> the useful distinctions for those are "can halt, even with probability 0" versus "never halts", and "halts with probability 1" versus "never halts"
15:43:36 <b_jonas> but they are non-deterministic because the player has a choice of where to move
15:43:51 <ais523> b_jonas: no, not when viewed as /languages/
15:44:09 <ais523> from the language point of view, the player is the interp, the level is the program
15:44:14 <ais523> and the interp's job is to act optimally
15:44:32 <ais523> perhaps by trying all possibilities in parallel
15:44:55 <b_jonas> ais523: in my view, the level is the program, the video game console and the rom other than the level is the interpreter, and the player is the nondeterminism.
15:44:56 <ais523> I guess it's nondeterministic in that sense
15:45:15 <ais523> b_jonas: that's just taking input
15:45:46 <b_jonas> ais523: right, these two views are why NP is defined in two ways:
15:46:02 <b_jonas> I say it's defined by a nondeterministic turing machine, you're sayuing it's defined by a turing machien that takes hints
15:46:14 <ais523> there are loads of definitions of NP
15:46:35 <b_jonas> anyway, do you think it would make sense if I created some entries with links for these?
15:46:58 <b_jonas> links and short descriptions
15:46:59 <ais523> one I like involves a trusted P-time machine, and a potentially malicious TC oracle
15:47:27 <ais523> the combination is guaranteed to say "false" if the statement is actually false (no matter what the oracle does), and "true" if the statement is true /and/ the oracle is trustworthy
15:47:45 <b_jonas> ah, that reminds me of something I want to ask on the other channel
15:48:53 <ais523> I think that if you're talking about TCness/PSPACE-completeness/whatever of computer games, the best option would just be one page listing all of them and linking to the existing results
15:48:57 <ais523> but Wikipedia already has one of those
15:54:36 <quintopia> ais523: when you compiled that collatz system to resplicate, how long was it and what was the largest value?
15:55:06 <ais523> quintopia: it's not very long at all
15:55:57 <ais523> 84 numbers per element in the initial queue, the largest number used is 678
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16:33:41 <b_jonas> oh, you proved Resplicate turing-complete? nice
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20:00:27 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
20:00:57 <fungot> shachaf: why the switch, i got it all. what i don't understand what you were explaining it, but i
20:03:21 * int-e feels the same about fungot, sometimes.
20:03:21 <fungot> int-e: i just want to know enough about it.
20:03:42 <kmc> the dead fungot blues
20:03:42 <fungot> kmc: esobot disappeared, i mean. eh.
20:08:04 <FireFly> good canadian fungot evening
20:08:04 <fungot> FireFly: yeah i guess it supports everything but the lowest level
20:08:26 <FireFly> Yeah, canadians aren't the lowest of them all.. only nearly so
20:10:00 <fungot> kmc: concrete examples? :p i like pianos. and the premise may very well be an explicitly typed program. the second argument
20:12:30 <kmc> "The back of the EP contains a diagram with instructions in Italian on how to make a molotov cocktail."
20:16:55 -!- kmc has set topic: fungots fall on fungot falls | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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20:24:23 <fizzie> fungot: What are you talking about there?
20:24:24 <fungot> fizzie: sneakers, isn't it? from lear to fnord or re-compile foo and bar
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20:37:52 <olsner> fungot: from lear to leviathan?
20:37:52 <fungot> olsner: gama chunks don't alter the rgb of each color and publish those as well.
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20:39:55 <fizzie> fungot: Well, that's good. Imagine what would happen if they did.
20:39:55 <fungot> fizzie: i think i've got this shell running irssi and it notifies me about new messages when i come to it. do it in
20:43:30 <FireFly> I didn't know fungot used irssi for IRCing
20:43:30 <fungot> FireFly: i don't really
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20:46:19 <fizzie> I guess irssi's just for message notification. Sounds like you have an overly complicated setup there, fungot.
20:46:19 <fungot> fizzie: would you let me have a look at
20:47:04 <FireFly> fungot: I think it's better to let fizzie take care of setting up your environment
20:47:04 <fungot> FireFly: in my quantifier language im going to bed. i am not a sophisticated irc user ( anymore).
21:02:46 <monotone> Oh, so that's what the F# stands for.
21:03:08 <fungot> monotone: go the hell to write generators with call/ ec is probably sufficient for writing one of those
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22:22:48 <Taneb> Is addition on floats associative?
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22:25:25 <Bike> you have some other rules, like ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u)) = u+v, which i'm sure is totally helpful
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22:32:51 <FreeFull> Addition on floats is commutative though
22:33:04 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, the 20th
22:35:08 <Taneb> btw if anyone else can get to York on the 20th for 19:30, I'm gonna try to design an esolang live and you can laugh at my failure
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22:45:55 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, are you actually coming to this
22:47:40 <Phantom__Hoover> a train from here to york is nearly 3 hours, unfortunately
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22:52:49 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: you need to get your own hoovercraft for these events
22:53:39 <oerjan> (it works the opposite of a hovercraft, naturally)
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23:10:13 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, with our current setup, livestreaming would be a tad difficult
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23:25:20 <FireFly> oerjan: what, it suctions itself to the ground?
23:26:17 <oerjan> FireFly: no, to the air
23:30:51 <Taneb> Wasn't there one of them in Mario Kart DS?
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23:48:06 <oerjan> quintopia: after a little testing, i have grave doubts about your 3 1 6 3 2 1 4 n conjecture for the numbers n=5,7,8,9 and 10. none of them seem to halt and 7,8 give me segmentation faults. (the rest all work, though.)
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23:59:04 <zzo38> Some computer games are easily on their hardest difficulty level, including "Hocus Pocus"; I know there are some cheat code, is there a cheat code to turn off all bonus items, or to impose a time limit, or ammunition limit?
23:59:46 <zzo38> (The only cheat code I know is "FEELGOOD" to set back your health to 100%, but isn't good enough. Also, I cannot change the key config to letter keys!)
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00:12:19 <quintopia> oerjan: when you say "none seem to halt" you mean they continue to have zeros in them forever?
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00:34:16 <oerjan> quintopia: well i ran them with | grep -P '((8 )*8)' | head -1 appended
00:35:37 <oerjan> (adjust 8 for actual digit)
00:36:26 <oerjan> so i didn't actually look at the output for all of them
00:38:43 <oerjan> quintopia: of course i didn't run them very long, so if you actually have run any of them to the point they confirmed the conjecture...
00:39:25 <oerjan> i'd sort of guess those that segfaulted did so because they grew enormous length
00:44:17 <quintopia> oerjan: one of these days i'll implement an automatically RLEing list...
00:47:08 <zzo38> Any emulator I have tried does not support any function of $B003 register other than the register labeled "M" here: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/VRC6#PPU_Banking_Style_.28.24B003.29
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00:53:28 <Sgeo> Gregor: I still want to buy the Sonivox soundfont
00:53:51 <Sgeo> Although not convinced it's so great compared to Titanic
00:55:46 <oerjan> quintopia: hm oh well actually 10 _technically_ fulfils the conjecture at one step, it's just that it's so short it needs to pop zeros for the next one.
00:56:47 <Sgeo> Why is this sound called newd.wav?
00:56:55 <Sgeo> It doesn't sound very newd
00:56:59 <oerjan> oh wait that means there's something wrong with my regexp...
00:57:18 <Sgeo> It sounds more... apocalyptic
00:59:31 <oerjan> oh no, the regex's fine, it's the head -1 that somehow doesn't print the first line when nothing more is coming
01:02:52 <oerjan> quintopia: hm looking at the error messages, it might be grep which is doing the segfaulting.
01:03:37 <oerjan> because python gives a broken pipe error message
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01:46:02 <Bike> find the "exec other command" command and use it to exec something that segfaults, duh
01:47:00 <oerjan> FreeFull: hm i was using -P, the segfault disappeared when i rewrote the regexp in usual grep style
01:49:19 <oerjan> sadly there still were no matching lines to see
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01:55:50 <zzo38> Do you have a cycle accurate C program to emulate a 6502 CPU?
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04:14:24 <coppro> elliott_________: you appear to be leaking underscores
04:14:39 <coppro> elliott_________: and basically my "help" is "why doesn't haskell have dependent types grrr"
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05:13:36 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/1328/
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05:26:46 <oklopol> "<ais523> b_jonas: those aren't non-deterministic, the sense in which they're TC involves generalizing them to an infinite repeating pattern and treating it as a constraint-solving exercise" <<< isn't nondeterminism exactly constraint-solving?
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05:27:41 <oklopol> i guess you meant in the thue sense
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05:44:12 * kmc has just read http://www.vanemden.com/books/neals/jipi.html
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06:44:22 <kmc> `dis86 6a3b589948bb2f62696e2f2f73685253545f5257545e0f05
06:44:23 <HackEgo> push 0x3b \ pop rax \ cdq \ mov rbx, 0x68732f2f6e69622f \ push rdx \ push rbx \ push rsp \ pop rdi \ push rdx \ push rdi \ push rsp \ pop rsi \ syscall
06:44:27 <kmc> `run dis86 31c031d2b00b52686e2f7368682f2f626989e3525389e1cd80 -32
06:44:27 <HackEgo> xor eax, eax \ xor edx, edx \ mov al, 0xb \ push edx \ push 0x68732f6e \ push 0x69622f2f \ mov ebx, esp \ push edx \ push ebx \ mov ecx, esp \ int 0x80
06:44:52 <kmc> `unhex 68732f2f6e69622f
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07:00:00 <kmc> `dis86 6a3b589948bb2f62696e2f2f73685253545f5257545e0f05
07:00:01 <HackEgo> push 0x3b; pop rax; cdq; mov rbx, 0x68732f2f6e69622f; push rdx; push rbx; push rsp; pop rdi; push rdx; push rdi; push rsp; pop rsi; syscall;
07:00:17 <kmc> `as86 push 0x3b; pop rax; cdq; mov rbx, 0x68732f2f6e69622f; push rdx; push rbx; push rsp; pop rdi; push rdx; push rdi; push rsp; pop rsi; syscall;
07:00:18 <HackEgo> 6a3b589948bb2f62696e2f2f73685253545f5257545e0f05
07:01:14 <Sgeo> Refrigerators only cost a few hundred dollars?
07:01:25 <Sgeo> I was thinking it would be more like thousands, for some reason
07:02:13 <kmc> `as86 1: xor eax, eax; mov al, 0x39; syscall; jmp 1b
07:03:18 <Bike> well a /good/ refrigerator costs thousands.
07:03:27 <Bike> the walk-in ones you use in your bomb shelters.
07:03:29 <kmc> «xor eax, eax» has the same effect as «xor rax, rax», isn't it? and one byte shorter
07:03:42 <kmc> Sgeo: you can get small ones for somewhat under $100, even
07:03:44 <Bike> does xor eax eax affect the high bits?
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07:04:21 <Sgeo> So, instead of living with no working fridge, maybe I should just buy one myself already.... although, I also have no way to transport cold-needing foods home
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07:04:45 <kmc> Bike: writing to the low 32 bits of a register clears the upper 32 bits, for reasons
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07:04:52 <Bike> right silly me
07:05:33 <Bike> Sgeo: you can keep foods unrefrigerated for a few minutes as you walk home without them exploding.
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07:06:03 <Sgeo> It's an annoyingly long walk from Stop&Shop, and CVS doesn't have all that much food
07:06:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temperature_and_pressure#Current_use good thing programmers aren't the only ones who suck at standards
07:06:56 <Sgeo> Could keep Red Bull cold, I guess
07:07:03 <Sgeo> FOr the rare occasions I want to have Red Bull at home
07:07:25 <kmc> Sgeo: do you have a landlord who should fix the fridge?
07:07:53 <Sgeo> It's a co-op, I think we're supposed to maintain it. Even if not, we don't really want our landlord walking in here
07:08:26 <kmc> you can get food delivered maybe
07:08:37 <kmc> I know this is a thing in NYC; I don't know how far out on Long Island you can do it
07:08:47 <Sgeo> I can walk to CVS to buy some foods
07:08:56 <Sgeo> Instant pasta, some noodles, etc.
07:09:04 <Sgeo> Or on good days can have pizza dinners
07:09:24 <kmc> "In my experience, boxes are usually empty, sometimes with a little cheese stuck to the top, and one time pepperoni, what a day that was!"
07:09:45 <Sgeo> As in, not too cold to walk to pizza place
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07:32:07 <Sgeo> "Why does Firefox take 30 seconds to shut down? Because it's anal about cleaning up stuff that the OS could discard in milliseconds, and because current programming languages do not distinguish between optional resource deallocations and mandatory finalization such as flushing buffers"
07:32:09 <Sgeo> Is that accurate?
07:32:38 <kmc> i seriously doubt it
07:33:02 <kmc> have you ever observed firefox to take 30 seconds to shut down?
07:33:18 <Sgeo> I haven't used Firefox in years... well, except for at work
07:33:34 <kmc> i started using it again when i took a job at mozilla
07:33:44 <Sgeo> This is from 2012
07:33:44 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9033931/memory-leak-c
07:33:44 <kmc> i can't really observe a performance difference from chromium anymore
07:34:22 <kmc> i think it would be easy enough to hack the allocator to make free() a no-op during shutdown
07:34:37 <kmc> so if this made a big difference they would already be doing it
07:34:55 <kmc> most things on stackoverflow are wrong
07:35:29 <Sgeo> That's depressing
07:35:43 <ais523> hmm, this is possibly the first time I've seen someone criticize Firefox for /not/ leaking memory
07:36:35 <kmc> although you can only make free() a no-op if the shutdown is un-cancellable
07:37:37 <Sgeo> Why is Windows Vista so pretty?
07:37:49 <Bike> because a lot of designers spent a lot of time making it so
07:38:12 <shachaf> why do you think it's called that
07:38:21 <kmc> buena vista
07:38:34 <ais523> Sgeo: basically because Microsoft decided to move to a compositing window managers for performance reasons, and it's hard for window managers to resist screwing around with all the fun things you can do with compositors
07:39:18 <kmc> http://jerkcity.com/_jerkcity1024.html -- I'm a bit disappointed that the ANSI C citation here doesn't seem to be relevant
07:39:27 <Sgeo> Not even talking about that (although sad it seems to have been removed from 8?). Just the... wallpapers and taskbar theme
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07:40:06 <ais523> I'm pretty sure 8 still does compositing, they just changed the theming
07:41:59 <kmc> really pissed that the Wikipedia deletionists got to the Jerkcity article
07:42:30 <kmc> it even had extensive citations http://www.jerkcity.com/wikipediasucks/Jerkcity.html
07:45:50 <kmc> fungot: this is all an
07:45:50 <fungot> kmc: since scheme has no builtin fnord under which defenition are characters, strings, ports)
07:46:24 <fizzie> The extensive citations all seem to be primary sources, though.
07:46:57 <fizzie> "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." (WP:PS)
07:49:05 <kmc> markov chain which combines king james bible with wikipedia policy documents
07:49:39 <fizzie> fungot: You heard the kmc; get to it.
07:49:39 <fungot> fizzie: if only people spoke " choose your own adventure". otoh, he's been using lisp since 1988. so i need something to tell gnomon. if only inequalities are supported in gauche's native encoding?)
07:52:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:52:39 <kmc> ^style speeches
07:52:39 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
07:52:44 <kmc> fortune favors the fungot
07:52:44 <fungot> kmc: " fnord fnord." on lincoln's nomination to the united states in a space of little more than three years elapsed before a change of ministry. his favourite disciple, george canning, young, military fnord, and the nation as buyer, to sell out the old whig party, i repeat, i am not safe from them.
07:53:01 <shachaf> fizzie: how does your speech recognition do on this fungot style
07:53:01 <fungot> shachaf: such disobedience on the part of the scheme. in the monastic institutions, in my childish days i remember to have heard a great deal of writing on the palm of eloquence doubtful. addington made a pitiable appearance between the court and juries should subsist any longer? on what principle is it that speaks thus? that of the augustan age: " fnord fnord fnord
07:53:44 <fizzie> It's challenging, because we generally expect a single utterance to come from a single speech, and not a jumble of several.
07:54:07 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
07:54:08 <fungot> kmc: gentlemen, i know mr. rockefeller, two weeks ago, and wrought out to a governor the general line of his arguments. but that was no place to talk about it as it is, i got off they started to raise a revenue in america. for even then, discussion was fnord but the subject is on my mind that he entertained no principle either to influence his heart, and still, therefore, decide on their respective claims to our confidence so f
07:54:38 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
07:54:43 <Sgeo> I remember there was a flash game that I was surprised had a Wikipedia article about it... found out some things about it that I couldn't find anywhere else
07:54:51 <fizzie> "on what principle is it that speaks thus? that of the augustan age: 'fnord fnord fnord'"
07:54:52 <Sgeo> Can't even remember what it was called now :(
07:54:52 <kmc> seen things you can't un-see
07:55:00 <kmc> fungots of all kinds
07:55:00 <fungot> kmc: i use slatex tex2page, and then to beslubber our garments with it, it had some obvious deficiences ( such as `,3 sub by 47, 48, 49, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169, 196, 225, 256, 512 ...too much output!
07:55:18 <Sgeo> It's the one where you hit some guy and he keeps bouncing on the ground and colliding with girls
07:55:27 <Sgeo> Which... actually sounds pretty weird
07:55:33 <kmc> is it a dating sim
07:55:43 <Sgeo> It wasn't adult, but I think the characters came from an adult story of some sort
07:55:46 <Sgeo> Not a dating sim
07:56:48 <ais523> wow, I think I know the game you mean, one of my friends back at secondary school (like 10 years ago now) was addicted to it (although I've never played it)
07:56:57 <ais523> not sure how to spell it because I've only heard it spoken
07:57:12 <fizzie> Sgeo: I just located Nanaca Crash by googling for "flash game where you hit some guy and he keeps bouncing on the ground and colliding with girls" -- the first hit was relevant.
07:57:17 <kmc> fungot: i'm surrounded by them
07:57:17 <fungot> kmc: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is
07:57:25 <kmc> fizzie: Google is pretty impressive
07:57:45 <fizzie> (I do remember that game too.)
08:00:17 <fizzie> 1260.79 m. I wonder if that's good or bad.
08:05:35 <fizzie> I guess not so good, because on second attempt I got 2800.11m. I think that's enough, though.
08:06:18 <fizzie> (I don't really understand the game mechanics. This time there was some sort of a "cosmic force field".
08:15:26 <Sgeo> fizzie: that wikipedia article has them, I think
08:18:31 <fizzie> Yes, it was very informative.
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08:20:57 <shachaf> it was not obvious to me at first that there was any audience participation beyond the first click
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08:25:11 <zzo38> This 6502 assembly code program contains a table "db 0,0,1,255,1,0,0" which is used in a few different ways, by reading it starting at different offsets; in one case it even uses the low two bits of the flag register as an index into this table.
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08:25:45 <zzo38> (This wasn't entire intentional; I just found that I could use the same table in several ways, so I did.)
08:26:39 <zzo38> Are you aware what the flag bits are in 6502 programming?
08:28:24 <ais523> yes, although I can't remember which order they're in
08:28:36 <ais523> do you push them onto the stack in order to get them into the X/Y register?
08:29:09 <zzo38> Although you cannot pop from the stack directly into the X or Y register
08:30:11 <zzo38> The low two bits of the flag register happen to be the carry flag at bit0, and the zero flag at bit1.
08:31:05 <zzo38> I don't know how common it is to perform arithmetic on the flag register
08:31:43 <zzo38> Or to perform arithmetic on instruction opcodes, which I have also done.
08:32:46 <zzo38> Do you know of any such things?
08:33:23 <zzo38> (I think in some extended 6502 instructions sets it is possible to take from the stack directly into a X register, but not in the normal 6502 anyways.)
08:35:24 <kmc> what do you do with arithmetic on instruction opcodes?
08:35:59 <kmc> in one of my programs I have a system call to read() which overwrites part of an instruction, but not an opcode
08:36:09 <zzo38> kmc: I mean adding, subtracting, exclusive ORing, etc numbers and storing the result in a RAM where it will be executed as an instruction opcode.
08:36:26 <zzo38> kmc: What program is that, and what CPU?
08:36:49 <kmc> i will show you the program when it is ready
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08:39:01 <kmc> zzo38: why is it useful to do arithmetic on opcodes, though?
08:40:11 <kmc> i have to sleep now, though
08:40:12 <kmc> good night
08:41:32 <zzo38> Here is the relevant code: AND #$04 ASL A ASL A ASL A STA <ppuadd1 EOR #$38 STA <ppuadd2 (ppuadd2 points to an instruction code, while ppuadd1 points to an operand of an ADC instruction)
08:42:06 <zzo38> (The < is the syntax in MagicKit to use zero-page addressing.)
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09:16:11 <zzo38> ais523: Do you understand any of this?
09:17:08 <fizzie> I thought I used xor to toggle between two opcodes in a self-modifying Z80 program, but it seems I just write them explicitly, since the two places that change it are separate.
09:17:43 <ais523> zzo38: yes, although my assembler didn't need a special syntax for zero page
09:19:16 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, most don't, although in my opinion the MagicKit syntax (which not only uses a special syntax for zero page, but uses square brackets for indirection) is better than the official syntax anyways.
09:20:14 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes you could do that, although of course it depend on the program, since it is also possible that they would be updated in the same way, like I have.
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09:24:18 <zzo38> ais523: What assembler did you use?
09:28:40 <ais523> zzo38: the one in the BBC Micro ROM
09:29:55 <zzo38> I didn't know it had one
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17:06:59 <Johnnie> Quick question, very minor: how are program listings done on the Wiki? Are they done through external links (IE: .txt files on another website), internal links (could you use Wiki space for program listings) or right on the page?
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17:30:14 <ais523> oh, I wasn't online enough to answer
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17:30:43 <ais523> @tell Johnnie if it's short, use <pre> blocks right on the page; long programs are normally linked externally but can be placed on subpages
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17:41:34 <zzo38> Can you see the purpose of my AND #$04 ASL A ASL A ASL A STA <ppuadd1 EOR #$38 STA <ppuadd2 code? (Hint: It is related to the Famicom PPU)
17:42:34 <zzo38> Which is described at http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/PPU_registers
17:50:04 <zzo38> I found a repository on GitHub that contains links to other projects. Is this a feature of the git system?
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17:59:38 <fizzie> Git does have a concept of "submodules" that are essentially links to other Git repositories.
18:00:27 <fizzie> (I don't know how they look like in GitHub.)
18:01:23 <olsner> (submodules are also widely considered to suck)
18:02:15 <int-e> https://github.com/ghc/ghc/tree/master/libraries has a bunch of submodules (but those are not - primarily - hosted on github)
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18:28:34 <zzo38> I found some z80 codes for multiplication/division.
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18:29:45 <zzo38> Now I should try to convert to 6502 codes, but I don't know all z80 instruction exactly what they mean.
18:32:12 <fizzie> There's (possibly not terribly good) multiplication routines for Z80 also in the SDCC C compiler.
18:32:27 <fizzie> I was thinking there might be 6502 routines too, but apparently SDCC didn't target the 6502 after all.
18:32:41 <ais523> zzo38: the manual I learned 6502 asm from had 16-bit multiply and divide in an appendix
18:33:45 <fizzie> There's a 6502 multiplication routine included in the CC65 sources, however.
18:34:40 <fizzie> https://github.com/oliverschmidt/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/runtime/mul.s and https://github.com/oliverschmidt/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/runtime/mul8.s
18:34:45 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: it might not be any good at all.)
18:35:46 <fizzie> (And division code in div.s, udiv.s.)
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18:41:12 <kmc> http://www.onlinedisassembler.com/odaweb/
18:48:03 <int-e> fizzie: the mul8x8 looks suspicious to me; how is the y register ever initialised?
18:49:19 <kmc> also http://gcc.godbolt.org/
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18:54:23 <atriq> Would it be correct to say that regular expressions from a semiring?
18:55:31 <atriq> Is it particularly useful, though
18:55:42 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleene_algebra
18:56:24 <shachaf> atriq: not really speaking of which, did you read http://conway.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/wiki/blog/posts/WordNumbers1/
18:58:41 <fizzie> int-e: I would think it's initialized by the ldy #8 on line 22.
18:58:52 <fizzie> int-e: (mul8x8 is not an exported entry point.)
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19:10:25 <atriq> shachaf: interesting read, thanks
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19:59:06 <zzo38> What is this? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Talk:Glossary It looks like it replaced accented letters with Chinese, but I don't know what would cause such thing!
19:59:39 <ais523> zzo38: it could be an encoding issue
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20:19:56 <fizzie> There are a number of character sets where a UTF-8 è (as in the word très) would be interpreted as 猫, as listed by a quick and dirty iconv -l | while read cs; do c=$(echo 'è' | iconv -f $cs); if [ "$c" == "猫" ]; then echo $cs; fi; done 2>/dev/null
20:21:42 <fizzie> (Including GB2312/EUC-CN and Windows code page 936.)
20:24:17 <fizzie> Looking at some other characters narrows it down to probably just cp936.
20:25:06 <fizzie> (The correspondence between 脿 and à, to be precise.)
20:25:45 <ais523> I'm surprised that there are encodings that would pick just 128 CJK characters to include in the high bits, if they're that complex
20:25:55 <ais523> it doesn't seem so useful to have such a small subset of the characters available
20:26:51 <fizzie> Hm? UTF-8 è and à are two-byte encodings, and translate to a single CJK character (猫, 脿) in those. Unless you're talking about some other encodings.
20:28:30 <ais523> fizzie: oh, I thought it was being translated from Latin-1
20:28:37 <ais523> because I'm used to codepages being 8-bit
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20:32:32 <fizzie> I believe CP936 is one of the Windows "DBCS" schemes, which is a multi-byte scheme with 00..7f alone as single-byte characters, and 80..ff as "lead bytes" that signal the start of a two-byte character, with the trailing half allowed to be any byte.
20:32:48 <fizzie> (So 2^15+2^7 available characters.)
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20:37:06 <fizzie> Not that I can really understand what it's trying to say, even after fixing the encoding.
20:37:24 <fizzie> It reads like some autogenerated spam filler text.
20:37:39 <ais523> maybe it /is/ autogenerated spam filler text?
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20:48:01 <kmc> fizzie: nice detective work
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22:53:56 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1xi8kd/this_week_in_rust_9_feb_2014/cfblq3e
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23:29:39 <oerjan> quintopia: i found definite proof that your 3 1 6 3 2 1 4 n was false for the remaining cases
23:31:42 <oerjan> quintopia: also i don't think lexicographic order means what you think it means.
23:32:04 <oerjan> (by which i mean, any sequence starting 11 is before 142)
23:33:31 <oerjan> (regardless of length)
23:34:09 <FireFly> Apparently there is a wiktionary entry for the word 'esolangs'
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23:51:36 <oerjan> quintopia: btw you could consider n=4 the same type as n=10, although you need to note then that the alignment will never be odd.
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01:06:04 <Sgeo> Racket has something it calls 3D syntax. Sadly, it seems to merely be "(syntax that contains unwritable values, etc)"
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01:08:23 * oerjan wins 1 point in the "guess what Sgeo is talking about just from the single first letter visible in the background window"
01:09:38 * oerjan loses points for not reading his own lines before pressing return
01:09:53 <Taneb> Can you guys give me tips for making esolangs without really trying
01:11:01 <oerjan> pick a weird layout for memory and program, possibly separately
01:12:13 <Taneb> oerjan, that was the plan
01:12:18 <oerjan> steal commands/keywords from ordinary languages, give them single character names
01:12:30 <Taneb> I need to do this in half an hour a week on thursday
01:12:50 <oerjan> alternatively give them themed names
01:13:14 <oerjan> (but i somehow expect you to have better taste)
01:13:53 <Taneb> I am worried my audience will be expecting Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download 2
01:14:41 <oerjan> in that case, steal combinator birds instead. rename them to flowers.
01:14:44 <Taneb> ...on another note, I've just got a 418 error
01:15:09 <Taneb> oerjan, I want to do as little planning but as much preparation as possible
01:16:37 <oerjan> bring a box of legos. use those for syntax.
01:17:05 <Taneb> As in, I want vague ideas about which direction I want to go in, but I don't want to actually have anything defined
01:17:16 <Sgeo> http://blog.inedo.com/2010/10/12/http-418-im-a-teapot-finally-a-%E2%80%9Clegitimate%E2%80%9D-use/
01:17:28 <Sgeo> Not really a legitimate use, but still
01:17:43 <Sgeo> I can imagine frustratingly implementing that sort of thing
01:18:19 <oerjan> Taneb: in fact construct the first 3d esolang.
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01:18:38 <Taneb> oerjan, isn't there some 3D funges?
01:18:40 <Sgeo> oerjan: come on, you've played 4d scrabble, you should suggest 4d esolang
01:18:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'm afraid lego won't be up to the challenge
01:19:01 <Taneb> In fact, nD funges are pretty boring once you get the idea
01:19:23 <Sgeo> Oh, apparently, you were judge, not player
01:19:32 <Sgeo> Based off this esolang log I fojd
01:19:46 <oerjan> ...i assume you mean frc log
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01:20:12 <oerjan> or wait, i may have discussed it here...
01:20:23 <Sgeo> http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/13.06.09
01:21:09 <oerjan> well it was an frc round, anyway.
01:21:52 <HackEgo> iotatedcoin pbocoin surfcoin delcoin doguecoin clavcoin catorcoin bullcoin sphcoin squodetroccoin brcalcoin bircoin fromorecoin feemcoin bitflipcoin bf-dercoin fragacoin extenundcoin snowfcoin markanweicoin
01:23:30 <oerjan> doguecoin, so francais, much beau
01:23:56 <Sgeo> 15:08:15 <Sgeo> I wonder when I'll start having nostalgia for Cablevision's offices
01:23:56 <Sgeo> 15:08:23 <elliott> did you quit
01:23:56 <Sgeo> 15:08:57 <Sgeo> no
01:24:17 <Sgeo> Since this conversation occurred, I have been relocated to a different office
01:24:27 <kmc> is it better or worse?
01:25:01 <Sgeo> It's diagonal. And worse.
01:25:49 <Sgeo> My cube is at the corner of two perpendicular hallways. There is a third hallway diagonal to those hallways
01:26:10 <Sgeo> It was a bit disorienting at first
01:26:34 <oerjan> it's actually a huge arrow pointing to Sgeo
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02:25:17 <quintopia> oerjan: what do you call the ordering where you sort by length and then sort by the first symbol within lengths, then sort by the second symbol within those with the same length and first symbol etc...
02:28:09 <oerjan> for a given base, if you ignore leading zeros, it's the same as "numerical order"
02:30:35 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortlex_order
02:34:02 <quintopia> so "the alignment will never be odd" is enough to prove that the zeros will never disappear?
02:35:32 <oerjan> for larger than 4, it's not necessary, but with 4 if you hit on 04400440... in that order it completely self-deletes
02:36:06 <quintopia> ah. what suffices for the other cases then?
02:36:29 <quintopia> like why do the zeros never show up in the first or second positions?
02:37:27 <oerjan> they might, but the strings are long enough that you will get a reproduction later anyhow
02:37:42 <oerjan> in fact the case where the zero is second is the worst one
02:38:01 <oerjan> and the only reason i need four copies of the n-1 n's block
02:39:52 <quintopia> hmm. were you able to simultaneously apply all this logic to all of them, and then just grep runs of them?
02:39:55 <oerjan> or n-2 n's, for the 0 0 case
02:40:55 <oerjan> all the cases where the alignment starts with n n work essentially the same, and there are just 2-3 other positions to consider.
02:41:32 <oerjan> and the logic is not significantly different for different n>=5
02:42:36 <oerjan> n … n 0 n … n 0 n … n 0 n … n
02:42:48 <oerjan> that's my summary diagram for the logic
02:43:45 <quintopia> well that's settled then. Now there's only a couple of things I really want to know about it: 1) am i right that universality is still achievable if we bound the number of symbols?
02:44:21 <oerjan> well of course, just take a universal tag system and apply ais523's perl program to it
02:44:43 <quintopia> 2) is there a nice block that includes an arbitrary length-n string and copies itself f(n) times for any linear f?
02:45:42 <oerjan> (afaict the initial state of the tag system doesn't influence the symbols used, only the lookup table/"alphabet" does)
02:46:07 <quintopia> oerjan: his program incorporates the initial condition into the generated program. I'm not perfectly certain about how it works that we can bound the max number for all possible inputs
02:46:21 <quintopia> well i can't tell. i was hoping so.
02:46:56 <oerjan> quintopia: the initial condition is afaict just concatenating the representation for each symbol as derived from the condition-independent alphabet.
02:46:58 <quintopia> in which case, my question is: what's an upper bound on that number? unfortunately, i can't find an explicit representation of a universal tag system anywhere.
02:49:36 <quintopia> i mistated question 2. in fact, i don't know how to phrase that question right now. but i would at least like to have a block pattern which can create a constant number of copies of itself including an arbitrary string.
02:49:44 <oerjan> as for (2) what do you mean by using a function? i'm pretty sure we can make a block that copies itself m times and contains a length n arbitrarily chosen substring
02:50:36 <oerjan> i guess i just rephrased it, then :P
02:50:36 <quintopia> well i would think so, but i would also like it to be short and simple :P
02:50:41 <quintopia> it's not what my real question is though. but i don't know what my real question is.
02:51:08 <oerjan> hm probably adjust the 4 2 4 2 ... thing
02:52:28 <oerjan> hm i think it needs something at the end too
02:53:48 <quintopia> yeah, except things at the end may cause it to interact with other blocks!
02:55:11 <oerjan> the problem is getting anything _between_ the copies.
02:55:37 <oerjan> i think you need two passes.
02:56:01 <quintopia> that sounds more likely. one pass for the head, one for the tail?
02:57:25 <quintopia> maybe one pass makes two copies the arbitrary string, and another inserts the header between them somehow
02:57:45 <oerjan> no. you cannot swap things efficiently.
02:57:56 <oerjan> but intermediate form, yes.
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03:10:18 <oerjan> oh, 4 2 m n 4 2 can do the prepending
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03:15:29 <oerjan> so basically prepend 4 2 (n+6) m to any sequence which is already self-preserving.
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03:19:36 <oerjan> in the next step, it will be the same, except with (n+22) m prepended, which then copies all of it m times.
03:21:02 <oerjan> hm in fact 4 2 x y 4 2 is a more basic building block of the 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 construction.
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03:22:54 <FreeFull> I have no idea what language this is
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03:57:46 <oerjan> quintopia: my rewordings while editing the page made me think of one possible subtlety of my mental model for queue-like languages like this: i'm thinking of the queue as more of a _circle_ that the ip is moving on, and the commands don't so much append to the queue as they are replacing themselves with their result...
03:59:13 <oerjan> this can apply to stack languages like underload as well (see the rewriting section in that)
03:59:35 <oerjan> and msm, which is a combination
04:01:38 <oerjan> (well for stack languages not the circle part, but the replacing part)
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04:11:46 <quintopia> 42mn42 is what i was thinking about
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04:48:46 <HackEgo> fryinglycoin circcoin acrotcoin hangcoin remonecoin tranocoin inlcoin objectcoin phawacoin kiploycoin bitiocoin kolmocoin micasmittcoin rcemanacoin poientedicasmicoin proomcoin ihatcoin tedcoin georylovecoin herstasiccoin
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04:56:09 <HackEgo> cat: coins: No such file or directory
04:56:26 <Bike> `run cat $(which coins)
04:56:26 <HackEgo> words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
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05:06:09 <lifthrasiir> I thought they are somehow generated via coingen.io
05:07:25 <Bike> do they have a bot interface
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06:19:56 <HackEgo> olist (944): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
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06:26:48 <HackEgo> homesprolcoin excocoin alcucoin mycecoin gottcoin gamcoin wilsofcoin lnutacoin rocecoin x-dcoin tarcoin faltcoin neurcoin burrcoin cobosencoin brachcoin photomycoin aheuicoin bicecoin dateflindexeucoin
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06:46:10 <kmc> fungotocracy
06:46:11 <fungot> kmc: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff
06:52:44 <shachaf> fungot: have you read your own code
06:52:44 <fungot> shachaf: i am just as confused. you, in that line, that i have gone totally wanting, and then you can choose fnord, but don't
06:53:02 <kmc> fungot: i choose not to choose fnord
06:53:02 <fungot> kmc: it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave? fnord 06:22, 29, no. 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 1(::**) ...bad insn!
06:53:22 <kmc> `dis86 4daf5f1e95
06:53:22 <HackEgo> scasq; pop rdi; invalid; xchg ebp, eax;
06:54:06 <ion> invalid; is the best instruction.
06:54:16 <kmc> `dis86 0f0b
06:54:28 <kmc> this is the instruction that's defined to be undefined
06:54:37 <kmc> i forgot what happened to ud1, maybe somebody defined it by accident
06:55:16 <kmc> `dis86 0fb9
07:03:23 <Bike> is fungot spouting underload now
07:03:23 <fungot> Bike: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going, tough one. if we solve it,...
07:04:07 <kmc> `gccrun asm("ud2");
07:04:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:04:51 <kmc> `gccrun asm("ud1");
07:05:25 <kmc> `cat bin/as86
07:05:25 <HackEgo> as="$1"; shift; echo ".intel_syntax noprefix; $as" | gcc "$@" -c -x assembler /dev/stdin -o /tmp/as86.o && objcopy -O binary /tmp/as86.{o,bin} && xxd -p /tmp/as86.bin
07:07:08 <Bike> that's some complicated shite right there.
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07:37:45 <fizzie> kmc: "Use the 0F0B opcode (UD2 instruction) or the 0FB9 opcode when deliberately trying to generate an invalid opcode exception (#UD)."
07:38:01 <fizzie> I guess it's still proerply undefined. Don't know about names.
07:38:18 <kmc> whence quote
07:38:51 <kmc> I think there's some OS out there which uses ud2 as the syscall instruction
07:39:34 <fizzie> Intel's instruction set manual, volume 2, Table A-1 "Superscripts Utilized in Opcode Tables", entry "1B".
07:39:51 <fizzie> (Which is used in both the 0F0B and 0FB9 table entries.)
07:57:36 <oklopol> i'll also ask here i guess: i have a (universal) algebra A in some variety, say it's an abelian group, so the type is (+, 2), (^{-1}, 1), (1, 0). i say a function f : A \to A is \emph{nice} if it can be built as follows: the identity map and constant maps are nice, and if $g$ is nice and $c \in A$, then $x \mapsto g(x) + c$, $x \mapsto c + g(x)$, $x \mapsto g(x)^{-1}$ and $x \mapsto 1$ are nice. is there a better name for nice?
07:58:32 <oklopol> so basically the functions you can build out of a single variable x and any algebra operations with constants from the algebra
07:58:54 <oklopol> for rings, these are the affine maps x \mapsto ax + b
07:59:01 <oklopol> so i have usually called them affine maps
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08:36:14 <Sgeo> HAXE HAS MACROS???
08:36:30 <Sgeo> Maybe I should actually take a look at it, instead of just instantly dismissing it as boring
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09:13:57 <olsner> kmc: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/12/15/313250.aspx
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14:01:38 <oerjan> <Bike> hi tech <-- was wondering for a moment who you were greeting, there
14:04:56 <fizzie> I always do that when it no works.
14:05:10 <oerjan> hint: metasepia leaves when boily does.
14:06:05 <fizzie> I did not know that. Why is it so?
14:06:23 <oerjan> you'll have to ask boily, it's his bot
14:07:05 <fizzie> @ask boily Why does metasepia leave when you do?
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14:40:17 <oerjan> darths & droids #1000 today
14:40:43 <oerjan> (don't forget the usual bonus comic)
14:50:02 <oerjan> THEY FORGOT THE BONUS COMIC
14:50:26 <oerjan> unless it's related to the fact sromg hasn't updated either.
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15:13:46 <b_jonas> do those follow some regular schedule?
15:14:57 <b_jonas> oerjan: by bonus comic, you mean the ones branching from #50, right?
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15:19:38 <oerjan> they usually appear every 50th ordinary comic
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16:01:42 <quintopia> ais523: could your tag-to-resplicate converter be easily adjusted to output only even-length sequences with even numbers in the odd positions?
16:07:16 <quintopia> wish i knew perl better, or understood the algorithm enough to reimplement in something I better understand
16:07:47 <ais523> the only tricky thing that program does is build expressions as strings, that are 'eval'ed later
16:08:04 <ais523> also, @array can either refer to the array as a whole, or the number of elements in it
16:08:14 <ais523> which can make that program a little confusing at times
16:09:45 <quintopia> and 523 is clearly just some sort of flag (based on your name) which could have been any number?
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16:14:06 <oerjan> it's not even a flag, just a dummy cell
16:15:41 <ais523> the point is that it doesn't matter
16:16:07 <quintopia> also it annoys me that it generates a program which is shortened by its first step. (it starts 2 1 78 0)
16:18:27 <ais523> you mean it could put the 78 0 at the /end/ instead? that'd annoy me even more
16:18:33 <ais523> because then it'd be out of order
16:20:36 <quintopia> i always manually move it to the end when i save it :P
16:21:47 <quintopia> so about these 1's that keep showing up in the odd positions...how to make them even numbers?
16:22:33 <quintopia> eh, in general, how to change odds to evens?
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16:26:52 <ais523> quintopia: the code that generates the 523 padding has an odd length (3), and the length of that code determines the length of the padding
16:27:35 <ais523> if you make the padding-generation code have an even length (e.g. by padding by copying a length-2 string not a length-1 string), the required length of padding will be an even length too
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16:28:38 <oerjan> ...and then my header merge suggestion will work >:)
16:30:05 <quintopia> oerjan: that's why i'm trying to do it
16:30:42 <quintopia> because as you've demonstrated, there is a simple meta-symbol construction for "ResPairate"
16:31:22 <oerjan> hm i may have thought that, but did i actually say it?
16:31:51 <oerjan> (that you can merge pairs into a single symbol if everything is even alignment)
16:32:02 <quintopia> (namely, the pair (n,m) is replaced by the sequence (2,2)(n+11,m)(2,2)(2,2)(2,2)(2,2)(2,2)(0,0)(n,1)(0,0)(n,1))
16:33:18 <quintopia> that's the metasymbol. you should recognize it. it's mostly yours. :P
16:33:33 <oerjan> well yes but what's a metasymbol
16:33:53 <quintopia> a sequence that behaves like a symbol. like metapixels in Life.
16:34:32 <oerjan> um that sequence double itself every second cycle, it doesn't behave like anything else?
16:38:57 <oerjan> but my sequence is designed to preserve _itself_, not what's following.
16:39:07 <quintopia> ais523: so does push @alphabet, 2, (@alphabet + 5), 0, 0; do what you're saying? i'm not sure what the "5 numbers" you refer to are.
16:39:45 <ais523> the 5 numbers are the number of numbers pushed on that line, plus the number of numbers pushed on the next line
16:39:49 <ais523> so you'd need to change the 5 to 6
16:39:56 <ais523> then you'd need to divide by 2
16:40:11 <ais523> because you're copying a two-element string, so you only need half as many copies
16:40:23 <ais523> so it'd be push @alphabet, 2, (@alphabet + 6) / 2, 0 , 0;
16:40:31 <ais523> then you need to change the end padding the same way
16:40:49 <quintopia> oerjan: it multiplies itself, including some string which it is prepended to. what if what is prepended to is another sequence just like itself? it should work i think.
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16:42:04 <quintopia> ais523: and the trailing padding has to be modified in terms of a string to be eval'd? so i need to put the /2 into a string and concatenate it?
16:43:15 <quintopia> so this: push @alphabet, 2, ('(@alphabet - '. @alphabet. ')/2'), 0, 0;
16:43:50 <oerjan> quintopia: it keeps the thing it's prepended to completely inert.
16:43:53 <ais523> quintopia: that looks right
16:45:16 <oerjan> my point is, something that works equivalent to the pair (m,n) needs _not_ to include itself in what it's multiplying.
16:45:21 <quintopia> oerjan: oh wait. i see the problem. it imposes a copy of itself between all those symbols its prepended to.
16:45:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: you were right. check the changes now.
16:45:39 <quintopia> so yeah it should fail to preserve itself instead
16:47:48 <oerjan> quintopia: in fact a trivial meta-symbol is (x,0) ...x arbitrary pairs... (m*(x+2),n)
16:48:47 <oerjan> and the initial part can be replaced by anything that leaves no trace
16:49:06 <quintopia> do you have m and n backwards from i am doing or am i just confused
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16:50:46 <quintopia> ah, you're right. metasymbols are really easy.
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16:52:42 <quintopia> ais523: by the way i ran collatz->tag->resplicate for n=27 and it 406542 steps to reach the period 40 oscillator, growing up to 2,170,200 on the way.
16:53:02 <ais523> quintopia: I tried doing that, but gave up waiting for it to finish :-)
16:53:20 <ais523> you can actually follow what the tag system is doing with some simple greps on the debug output of the interp
16:53:23 <quintopia> ais523: takes about one night's sleep to finish.
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16:54:12 <quintopia> ais523: you can actually follow the collatz one really easily just by watching the length of the queue from moment to moment (which is printed by the -l flag)
16:54:39 <quintopia> seeing as how it represents numbers in unary :P
16:55:04 <ais523> we need a simple useful tag program that isn't the collatz sequence one from Wikipedia, really
16:55:35 <ais523> although I guess generalized collatz (which is TC) shouldn't be too hard to compile to tag?
16:55:42 <quintopia> ais523: do you think it's possible to design a halt symbol that deletes itself when compiled to resplicate?
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16:56:38 <ais523> quintopia: not without modifying the rest of the construction, but it'd be trivial enough to slip in a "skip to this point in the next symbol" construction to the initial padding
16:56:41 <ais523> then you could just jump to that
16:56:47 <ais523> and all the symbols would delete themselves in turn until the tape was empty
16:58:20 <quintopia> ais523: the only problem i've been having with the whole "universal tag system" thing is that every thing I can find shows how particular /families/ of tag systems are universal. I have yet to find anything tag systems that let you encode other tag systems as the string to be modified and evaluates them.
16:58:50 <ais523> quintopia: write a Turing Machine that evaluates tag sytems, compile it to a tag system
16:59:05 <quintopia> ais523: yes i know, but that will be HUEG
16:59:25 <ais523> also there's the question about how you do input
16:59:34 <ais523> I'd like to give ResPlicate an output extension, at least
16:59:55 <ais523> something like "if the length is 0, the count is interpreted as a Unicode codepoint and written to stdout"
17:00:02 <ais523> that doesn't affect interps that don't understand it
17:00:22 <oerjan> you could use negative numbers for anything you want
17:01:09 <quintopia> oerjan: that MIGHT affect some interps.
17:01:17 <HackEgo> inccoin wheatchcoin cabraicoin wiercoin anocoin dellowierdongcoin palcoin cluticoin thersetcoin karmadigecoin gendelliorsquecoin htfcoin publecoin splcoin intfuccencoin clookcoin calcoin ariocoin nigmocoin juncoin
17:01:21 <quintopia> depending on the language they are in and how they are implemented
17:02:06 <b_jonas> why would it have to be numbers?
17:02:11 <b_jonas> couldn't it be a special entry?
17:02:40 <ais523> b_jonas: backwards compat
17:02:57 <ais523> is `coins like `words, but with "coin" at the end?
17:03:01 <oerjan> you can't do input with backwards compat, anyway.
17:03:07 <quintopia> ais523: ideally, input would automatically be converted into some kind of useful format, such as your "alphabets"
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17:04:49 <quintopia> ais523: if there were a way to do that, we could compile PLATTS to ResPlicate
17:10:32 <fizzie> ais523: It's `words with an english-and-esolangs interpolated model, and coin at the end.
17:12:49 -!- tertu_ has joined.
17:13:01 <fizzie> (Personally, I think it's impressively good at generating plausible cryptocurrency names, but then again that might be more of a comment on existing cryptocurrency names.)
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17:19:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: I like "palcoin". that's probably something endorsed by paypal
17:26:21 <myname> is there already a language that uses some kind of evolution?
17:28:53 <myname> as part of the concept
17:31:38 <myname> i have an idea of a metalanguage that produces keywords of the underlying language through some evolutionary rules
17:37:30 <quintopia> well, stuff like that has certainly been done. for instance the Lymia's BFJoust programs
17:42:35 <myname> well, i heard about evolutionary game theory an hour ago
17:44:14 <myname> like you have an instruction that rules for now, but because of some mutations another instruction might evolve and due to given rules might become the main population
17:47:57 <quintopia> that's not a fully-fledged idea yet :P
17:48:48 <myname> i have more details in mind, but i am on a smartphone right now, so i am too lazy to write that much details
17:49:00 <quintopia> ais523: do you think ResPairate would be TC with numcopies<=2?
17:49:22 <myname> i may just implement it after this semester is finally over
17:49:25 <ais523> quintopia: I think most likely yes, although I don't have a construction in mind
17:49:33 <b_jonas> myname: that's easy, just define a useful language and a half-useful compiler, but write its specification deliberately incomplete and remove some useful things so people want to add those as extensions,
17:49:51 <b_jonas> then variants of the language incompatible with old programs will evolve naturally as people try to fix the language
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17:51:35 <ais523> b_jonas: have you seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake
17:51:39 <ais523> it's sort of like that, except automatd
17:51:46 <ais523> the language definition fixes itself over time
17:51:53 <ais523> I don't have an interp, though
17:52:19 <b_jonas> ais523: I had glanced at it earlier, but didn't understand much of it
17:52:42 <ais523> this is a problem with my concepts that require a lot of effort to execute on
17:53:09 <ais523> (the most extreme example being Feather, which not even I understand)
17:53:14 <b_jonas> there's a "sather" language I think
17:53:27 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather
17:53:54 <ais523> wow, has Feather stopped being a #esoteric meme some time in the last year? /me rejoices
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17:54:17 <b_jonas> is it related to sather besides rhiming the name?
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17:56:39 <ais523> it's basically a simple OO language that uses time travel for inheritance, is written entirely in itself (going back infinitely many layers), and is designed to look like Smalltalk except for different reasons
17:58:04 <b_jonas> time travel.... wait, I have a writeup about that
17:58:26 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/git-extensions
17:58:44 <b_jonas> I think that's even on-topic here
17:59:04 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah, the first paragraph reminds me a lot of Scapegoat
17:59:14 <ais523> which I have done like 2 hours of work on in the past year
18:01:02 <ais523> the infinite history thing is reminiscent of Feather, though
18:01:17 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why I said time travel reminds me to it
18:01:30 <ais523> although the way it's implemented in Feather is, it goes back finitely many levels, then if you try to go past the end of it it retroactively increases the number of levels it used
18:01:35 <b_jonas> (well, besides that I explicitly mention time machine)
18:01:40 <ais523> err, or would be implemented, if anyone had a clue how to mention Feather
18:02:16 <b_jonas> right, I specifically say that: "These meta levels spring into existence lazily as you reference them, so if you reference meta^p-history for the first time, then the meta^q-history for all p < q is considered to always have contained a single default meta^p-branch."
18:02:58 <quintopia> ais523: it's not completely gone from lore tho. for instance...
18:03:06 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
18:03:06 <ais523> *how to implement Feather
18:03:23 <ais523> b_jonas: Feather isn't quite the same as laziness
18:03:39 <ais523> given that it involves reconstructing the entire gamestate from scratch
18:05:11 <ais523> gah, I'm too incoherent to write meaningful sentences
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18:14:09 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
18:14:09 <fungot> kmc: ( that is, levinson went to kish, disappeared, had on your behalf of the commission. at the moment. wheee, shiny.'). the solution is to produce the bonds i.e fnord between the karma and our fnord causeway. the scene uses hare coursing as a metaphor and may be fnord to other military genius, indeed, from country, have the fnord so fnord a series of really coy riddles about it and stop the eval loop, stable or otherwise fail
18:14:47 <kmc> fungot: have you heard the new album by Levinson and the Commission
18:14:47 <fungot> kmc: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
18:15:03 <quintopia> i'm thinking the non-digit symbol is the best way to add input to ResPlicate. it doesn't matter that it will cause non-compliant interps to break since, a) there's really only one published interp right now and b) if a program needs user input, what it does couldn't be emulated by the current implementation anyway.
18:15:29 <quintopia> in which case I think a construction like n ? {n symbols} is the way to go
18:15:35 <b_jonas> quintopia: well, you could have two versions of the language, one without input and one with input
18:16:09 <quintopia> b_jonas: or 90 VERSIONS OF THE LANGUAGE. RIGHT? RIGHT?
18:17:19 <b_jonas> however, try to make the langauge definition as simple as possible. if it's universal with input just queueing a byte and pushing a single number between 0 and 257, make it do that even if it's harder to program
18:17:40 <quintopia> at least java had the class to update their language such that programs are forward-compatible
18:17:41 <b_jonas> and make sure the input thing doesn't make programming easier
18:18:30 <b_jonas> forget python, how many incompatible version did _ruby_ have? over ten I think
18:18:44 <b_jonas> ruby guys are just not interested in compatibility
18:18:51 <quintopia> b_jonas: of course it's universal with (whatever input method you want) because it's universal!
18:19:09 <b_jonas> they rename methods removing the old name for as feeble reasons as deciding their name isn't perfect
18:19:53 <b_jonas> quintopia: by universal, I don't mean it should just be turing-complete, but also that it should be able to emulate any bf program
18:21:11 <quintopia> and yes, just enqueueing a byte from input would probably make it BF-complete
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18:21:29 <quintopia> since the n ? thing could then be done on the second pass
18:22:04 <b_jonas> I can't confirm or deny that, because I really don't understand all this tag system queue language stuff
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18:29:03 <quintopia> yeah the current interpreter would interpreter 0 -1 exactly the same as 0 0, which means I could use -1 as the input
18:30:34 <nortti> would the input just add the unicode codepoint to the end or do some encoding?
18:36:38 <b_jonas> it would be better to input bytes imo
18:37:06 <b_jonas> inputting unicode code points in this language could be dangerous.
18:37:38 <b_jonas> you could also make it input bits, but that might make programming too easy
18:37:53 <nortti> it would make sense to change the output to bytes, too
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20:19:45 <quintopia> this place is sad with no oerjan and neither alex
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20:22:37 <kmc> all fungot all the time
20:22:38 <fungot> kmc:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive), and, burning, and no clear account. in that second one is horizontally displaced by 1 pixel is sacred. just me, or i: yet, you rogue!
20:22:43 <int-e> quintopia: see, lambdabot is happy ;)
20:42:02 <FireFly> fungot: is every pixel sacred, or just that one pixel?
20:42:02 <fungot> FireFly: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff like " thisfunction2 thislineofcode")) but have to seek. hee. i wan to faster finish the game could
20:42:47 <fungot> FireFly: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
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21:23:43 <kmc> error: failed to find an implementation of trait std::iter::FromIterator<char> for [type error]
21:23:54 <kmc> I want a language where you can define instances for type errors!
21:28:12 <Bike> i thought that was usual in languages with object-oriented error shite
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21:48:19 <ion> https://twitter.com/puffnfresh/status/433348860413353984
21:49:59 <kmc> I saw somebody claim that Satoshi solved the Byzantine Generals' problem...
21:56:07 <kmc> "It’s like assembling Lego" it's funny how this exact thing has been said about every programming system since at least the dawn of OOP
21:59:26 <Bike> "$2.6 million is a pretty hefty seed round. But given this startup’s provenance, it makes perfect sense." omg and the picture
21:59:50 <Guest65497> why is there a startup for a package manager
22:00:44 <kmc> Guest65497: it's because "Investors are churning around developer tools these days as software makers gain more and more control and mindshare in an increasingly crowded universe of data and devices"
22:01:01 <kmc> this totally makes sense and is not a nonsense sentence at all
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22:21:34 <Taneb> Fun project: prove Haskell's lens library, on its own, without any functions not exported from Control.Lens or other modules in the library, is turing complete
22:22:35 <oerjan> <quintopia> ais523: do you think ResPairate would be TC with numcopies<=2? <-- i'd think it would, too. e.g. the self-preservation prefix has that property, so there's no problem keeping things stable in one part of the queue, which means you can use as many cycles as you want to handle a single tag, which means you can multiply the alphabet in several doubling steps to get as many as you want.
22:23:08 <oerjan> all the offset stuff is just deleting to where you want to start anew, which is just 0 copies.
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22:26:41 <oerjan> Taneb: well someone did fibonacci already, so it cannot be too hard...
22:26:55 <Taneb> oerjan, the fibonacci was me
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22:27:11 <oerjan> i vaguely thought so, but i couldn't find your post again
22:27:39 <oerjan> you should be eminently qualified for the project, then.
22:28:05 <Taneb> I defer to your experience in proving stupidly constrained systems turing complete
22:30:08 <Taneb> I've got some ideas, though
22:33:38 <FreeFull> I want to try http://mirrors.talideon.com/articles/qbal/
22:34:07 <oerjan> `pastelogs taneb.*fibonacci
22:34:09 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pastelogs: line 2: cd: /var/irclogs/_esoteric: No such file or directory \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16743
22:34:22 <oerjan> just for the despair, i did this.
22:34:42 <Taneb> It was... the week before last
22:36:17 <Taneb> Definitely a weekday
22:36:50 <Taneb> "sumOf ignored" should be a good search tearm
22:39:00 <oerjan> well it was not any time between 27-30 january. unless glogbot was down.
22:39:21 <Taneb> Ah, I was triple-wrong
22:39:26 <Taneb> It was the 2nd of February
22:40:13 <Taneb> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-02-02#213420Taneb
22:41:58 <FreeFull> Does Control.Lens export curried though?
22:42:09 <FreeFull> > view curried (view simple) (sumOf ignored (&)) (productOf ignored (&)) ^.. over mapped (iterated ((over mapped (view flipped (mapped %~) (sumOf both ^. curried)) (over mapped (mapped %~) (view simple ^. curried))) ^. flipped & over mapped (perform (acts&mapped%~acts)) & review curried)) _1
22:42:11 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
22:42:17 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Profunctor p) => p (a -> b -> c) (f1 (d -> e -> f)) -> p ((a, b) -> c) (f1 ((d, e) -> f))
22:42:38 <Taneb> :t curried :: Iso' ((a, b) -> c) (a -> b -> c)
22:42:39 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Profunctor p) => p (a -> b -> c) (f (a -> b -> c)) -> p ((a, b) -> c) (f ((a, b) -> c))
22:42:56 <FreeFull> You could possibly make use of & to reduce the brackets
22:43:49 <Taneb> FreeFull, you're welcome to give it a go
22:44:21 <oerjan> the obvious thing is to extract ordinary functions like (.) const etc. somehow
22:44:36 <Taneb> :t over mapped `asTypeOf` (.)
22:44:52 <Taneb> :t view simple `asTypeOf` id
22:44:53 <oerjan> is asTypeOf exported by lens
22:45:08 <oerjan> well it's certainly not defined there
22:45:21 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
22:45:32 <Taneb> > over mapped (+1) (*3) 4
22:45:46 <FreeFull> Taneb: To be honest, I don't want to
22:46:02 <oerjan> :t view (view simple) `asTypeOf` const
22:46:03 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = b0 -> a0
22:46:03 <lambdabot> When using functional dependencies to combine
22:46:19 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Settable f1) => (a -> f1 b) -> f a -> f1 (f b)
22:46:58 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting a s a -> m a
22:47:24 <oerjan> :t view id `asTypeOf` const
22:47:25 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = b0 -> a0
22:47:25 <lambdabot> When using functional dependencies to combine
22:48:17 <oerjan> oh right it's return which is const, not ask
22:48:27 <Taneb> :t over mapped over ixed
22:48:30 <Taneb> :t over mapped over ix
22:48:31 <lambdabot> (Indexable (Index t) p, Ixed Mutator t) => Index t -> p (IxValue t) (IxValue t) -> t -> t
22:48:50 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off now
22:48:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `p0 a0' with `Mutator'
22:48:50 <lambdabot> Expected type: Setting p0 s0 (Mutator b0) a0 b0
22:48:50 <lambdabot> Actual type: p0 a0 (Mutator b0) -> s0 -> p0 a0 (Mutator b0)
22:49:06 <FreeFull> It's handy how id is the identity lens
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22:52:05 <oerjan> :t view (over mapped curried _1)
22:52:06 <lambdabot> (MonadReader ((a1, b) -> c) m, Field1 (a1 -> b -> c) (a1 -> b -> c) a a) => m a
22:52:16 <oerjan> :t view (over mapped curried _1) `asTypeOf` const
22:52:17 <lambdabot> Field1 (a -> b -> c) (a -> b -> c) (b1 -> (a, b) -> c) (b1 -> (a, b) -> c) => ((a, b) -> c) -> b1 -> (a, b) -> c
22:52:49 <oerjan> :t view curried _1 `asTypeOf` const
22:52:50 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Indexable Int (,)) arising from a use of `_1'
22:52:50 <lambdabot> from the context (Functor f, Field1 s t (s -> f t) b)
22:52:59 <oerjan> :t review curried _1 `asTypeOf` const
22:53:00 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
22:53:00 <lambdabot> When using functional dependencies to combine
22:53:11 <oerjan> not thinking clearly enough.
22:53:36 <oerjan> :t view curried (view _1)
22:54:25 <FreeFull> Anyone know of any Q-Bal interpreters?
22:57:58 <oerjan> hm pesky unnecessary argument
22:58:04 <lambdabot> Each Mutator s t a b => b -> s -> t
22:58:40 <FreeFull> oerjan: Technically ('a','a') is fully syntax
22:58:41 <oerjan> > set both 1 undefined
22:59:07 <oerjan> FreeFull: i don't think Taneb wants constructors from outside lens
22:59:21 <oerjan> even if they're sugared
23:00:25 <oerjan> prisms are for data types with more than one constructor, mainly...
23:00:54 <shachaf> well, "structural" prisms are
23:01:22 <shachaf> but of course you can have a prism for anything that you can express as a sum
23:01:43 <shachaf> Prism' s a = exists r. s ~ (Either r a)
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23:03:06 <FreeFull> Is the Left value useful for anything other than the constructor itself?
23:06:42 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> (a, a) -> f (b, b)
23:06:57 -!- ion has joined.
23:08:51 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `join' (imported from Control.Monad.Writer)
23:11:57 <FreeFull> Seems a Q-BAL interpreter doesn't exist ):
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23:20:18 <oerjan> <quintopia> this place is sad with no oerjan and neither alex <-- there are two alex?
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00:14:30 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know if it's to convert all tag systems into a form where no production produces more than two symbols?
00:21:00 <oerjan> i think you accidentally a lot
00:23:18 <oerjan> i shall assume the missing word is "evil", in which case the answer is "maybe".
00:24:56 <oerjan> i don't know about the question you are trying to ask.
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00:39:51 <quintopia> oerjan: wow. i typed out every word in that sentence, i'm sure of it. lag!
00:40:14 <oerjan> lag shouldn't work that way.
00:40:30 <oerjan> they invented tcp for a reason, you know.
00:40:49 <Sgeo> The Kindle Paperwhite keyboard sucks
00:41:16 <kmc> mosh won't drop / reorder keystrokes though
00:41:20 <kmc> it has its own reliable transport on top of udp
00:41:24 <oerjan> tell the mosh people they'd better have this fixed in good time before i take over the world, or they'll be SORRY.
00:41:44 <Sgeo> Does mosh client work well in cygwin on Windows yet??
00:42:25 <oerjan> quintopia: if you are asking this as an intermediate stage for resPairate-2, i'm not sure that's a good idea.
00:42:53 <oerjan> it seems to me that tag systems are too rigid to make that convenient.
00:46:09 * oerjan wonders if quintopia is lagged by several minutes.
00:46:38 <oerjan> well, not at the /ping level
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00:50:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: Guest65497: you were just deregistered from Agora hth
00:51:28 <Sgeo> I was planning on reading the ruleset too
00:51:47 <oerjan> you can reregister, i believe.
00:54:30 <Taneb> How're things going
00:55:17 <oerjan> well there have been some major simplifications. also there's a new game with complex number scores, and piracy.
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01:20:07 <kmc> "I finally heard what happened to our building. Someone was playing ski-ball in an office and hit a sprinkler"
01:21:48 <kmc> stupid, stupid industry
01:23:27 <Taneb> I kind of want to do some sort of summer internship this summer
01:26:10 <Taneb> But I have no idea where to look :/
01:26:13 <quintopia> oerjan: well what is a good place to start then? (i'm also asking it in case it makes it possible to have smaller UTMs)
01:27:19 <Bike> i found out i need two letters of rec for any good internship so i'm p. doomed
01:27:52 <Bike> does taneb have recommendations
01:28:13 <Taneb> Bike, I... probably could get some
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01:28:40 <quintopia> Dear Bike: Internships are good for experience. I recommend you get some. Love, Quintopia
01:29:04 <oerjan> quintopia: i was thinking you can make an active tag that takes one cycle to add each prepended tag
01:31:54 <Bike> i guess i could use an irrelevant one
01:32:16 <Bike> probably can't ask my boss for one soon enough to get the one that looked really interesting, sigh
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01:33:22 <oerjan> and all passive tags have self-preservation prefixes
01:34:23 <quintopia> oerjan: and how do you stop it when it's done?
01:34:48 <Taneb> So where is a good start for looking for internships
01:35:21 <oerjan> quintopia: by deleting the remainder...
01:35:35 <oerjan> and the necessary following tags, naturally
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01:37:27 <oerjan> an active tag would have something like the format <header> n 2 ...<small number of alphabets enough for a single cycle> n 2
01:37:45 <Bike> Taneb: bulletin boards at your school
01:38:16 <oerjan> an active tag would have something like the format <header> <alphs> n 2 <alphs> n 2
01:38:38 <kmc> Bike: I think when you're still a student you don't need super relevant recs
01:38:55 <oerjan> then the header can use the first set to prepend whatever, and to produce the header for the next cycle
01:39:25 <oerjan> while the second set gets reduplicated each cycle
01:39:41 <Bike> kmc: i'd be applying for an NSF thing rather than 'just an internship' though, you get thousands in room and board and shit like that
01:39:49 <Bike> i'm just antsy about applying for things probably
01:40:00 <kmc> in that case though there are probably a lot of people around who've done it before and can help you
01:40:12 <oerjan> the prepended stuff can probably take a cycle to settle down into the right format too.
01:41:39 <oerjan> since it gets "run" before the next step of the active one.
01:42:48 <quintopia> so the active one prepends a bunch of copies?
01:43:47 <oerjan> so that you don't need to more than double stuff per cycle
01:46:23 <oerjan> and you get some extra slack from the extra cycle for the prepended tag representation.
01:47:20 <quintopia> so you would prend n copies of the 'double this symbol' tag, and then each on executes one per cycle?
01:49:45 <oerjan> i don't understand what you mean.
01:50:08 <quintopia> i don't understand what you mean, so it sounds fair
01:50:48 <oerjan> hm two alphabet copies per <alph> might be enough.
01:51:19 <oerjan> the first gets passed to the prepended ... oh hm.
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01:52:14 <oerjan> i think we need 3, this still needs to use ais523's misalignment trick.
01:53:45 <oerjan> because it's the simplest way to pass to arbitrary code _after_ you've copied the alphabet.
01:55:40 <oerjan> <header> will prepend a proto-header for the prepended tag, then delete to a spot inside the first alphabet copy; this spot then doubles a misaligned alphabet for the prepended tag to use, after which ... hm maybe 2 is enough anyway.
01:56:42 <oerjan> the part of the alphabet _after_ the cutoff will prepare the header for the next cycle of the active tag.
01:59:05 * oerjan has a slight headache, which isn't helping.
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02:01:45 <quintopia> 'will prepend a proto-header for the prepended tag' this doesn't seem very rigorously stated. i'll wait until your headache goes away :P
02:03:48 <oerjan> well the proto-header's job would be to mangle the prepended tag into its final passive form on the next cycle.
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03:39:00 <Sgeo> The dice server is still up?
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03:48:52 <kmc> i'm glad the responses are PGP encrypted
03:49:24 <kmc> er, signed
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03:58:59 <oerjan> (this has come up because the new agora speaker has made a policy to select judges randomly from the candidates)
04:03:10 <kmc> SatoshiDice uses a random number generation procedure which is retrospectively verifiable
04:05:30 <kmc> they have published a committment to a HMAC key for each of the next many days, using Bitcoin as a timestamping service
04:06:02 <kmc> every day they reveal the previous day's key and you can verify that it matches the committment
04:06:49 <kmc> and the randomness for bets is generated by HMACing some public information about the bet
04:07:29 <kmc> but this might not work for games where some rolls need to remain secret for a long time
04:10:31 <Sgeo> "Some consider it to be DDoS attack against the Bitcoin network since it is bypassing the built-in anti-DDoS features of Bitcoin (transaction fees)."
04:13:18 <kmc> how does it circument fees
04:23:36 <Bike> games? what kind of games we talkin here
04:29:39 <kmc> the most dangerous game
04:30:40 <copumpkin> transaction fees are considered an anti-DDOS mechanism?
04:31:06 <kmc> it seems that SD requires bets to have a fee, which makes them go through quickly, and could be considered an aggressive move of some kind, but doesn't seem at all like "bypassing" the mechanism
04:31:29 <kmc> it's not so much "bypassing" as "using it exactly as intended"
04:31:42 <kmc> a fine distinction
04:31:46 <copumpkin> people were annoyed when it started taking up half the volume of transactions
04:39:22 <Bike> see i'm just imaginign someone using this for D&D
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05:51:14 <kmc> `dis86 48c7042500004000efbead0b
05:51:15 <HackEgo> mov qword [0x400000], 0xbadbeef;
05:58:21 <kmc> well i published the thing http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2014/02/x86-is-turing-complete-with-no-registers.html
05:59:24 <kmc> Slereah: ^ i said i would send you a link
05:59:29 <kmc> probably said that to other people but i forgot
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06:21:19 <pikhq> Somehow I suspect the branch predictor isn't that fond of this.
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06:59:38 <kmc> Linux's perf can measure that...
06:59:42 <kmc> I don't have it working on this machine though
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07:37:02 <kmc> oh jeez https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/Security/Conceptual/cryptoservices/RandomNumberGenerationAPIs/RandomNumberGenerationAPIs.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40011172-CH12-SW1
07:37:10 <shachaf> kmc: i like how you link to esolangs.org for Turing-complete
07:37:10 <kmc> spot the bug in this security critical code example
07:37:14 <kmc> thx shachaf
07:37:25 <shachaf> probably a better discussion of the relevant issues for this sort of thing
07:37:46 <kmc> I think that's what I concluded, yeah
07:40:52 <Bike> what's the bug
07:43:25 <ais523> I couldn't spot it for ages, but I was reading the code top to bottom, and it's in the last nontrivial line
07:44:03 <ais523> wait, no, I thought the shift was wrong, but now I'm not sure it is
07:44:21 <kmc> I think (c << (8 * i)) gets promoted to int which actually makes the whole thing UB
07:44:23 <ais523> the left operand to the shift's a uint8_t
07:44:27 <ais523> and the right hand side's a plain int
07:44:28 <kmc> but at the minimum, it won't get promoted above unsigned int
07:44:38 <ais523> so you can't guarantee that any shifts larger than 24 work correctly
07:45:04 <ais523> needs a cast to uint64_t on c
07:45:24 <b_jonas> kmc: re that post you linked to, you say "Many RISC architectures also allow" indirect jump
07:45:44 <b_jonas> kmc: I don't think that's a risc thing, the 6502 also has an indirect jump instruction
07:45:48 <kmc> is shifting a signed int by more than the number of bits UB?
07:46:00 <kmc> b_jonas: right, I didn't mean it's exclusively a RISC thing, just that it's not a particular x86 CISC weirdness
07:47:01 <ais523> kmc: yes, and shifting it by 31 would produce the wrong result
07:47:09 <fizzie> kmc: Shifting any int (signed or unsigned) by more than the number of bits is UB.
07:47:16 <b_jonas> in fact I think that's a really strange instruction in 6502 because it loads has 2 bytes of address in the instruction then loads 2 bytes indirectly using that (though there's a bug when the indirect address lies on a page boundary), and that whole thing executes in just too few clock cycles to be possible on that cpu
07:47:26 <fizzie> kmc: s/more than/more than or equal/
07:47:34 <kmc> fizzie: ouch
07:48:22 <b_jonas> it supposedly runs in 5 clock cycles, which is strange
07:48:37 <fizzie> "If the value of the right operand is negative or is greater than or equal to the width of the promoted left operand, the behavior is undefined." (C11 6.5.7p3)
07:48:51 <kmc> thanks fizzie (what's a good link for C11?)
07:49:02 <kmc> don't tell me you forked over the CHF for an official copy
07:49:11 <kmc> b_jonas: weird
07:49:17 <kmc> i have heard about that bug, too
07:49:18 <fizzie> kmc: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1570.pdf is the latest draft.
07:49:26 <ais523> kmc: n1570.pdf is a draft from just before it was released
07:49:41 <ais523> it's not 100% accurate to C11, but it's pretty close
07:49:45 <fizzie> kmc: There's also an unofficial HTML conversion at http://www.iso-9899.info/n1570.html
07:50:08 <b_jonas> it makes sense afterall, the stuff that takes lots of time in other instructions is adding an index register to a 16-bit absolute address which has to fit AFTER loading the address but BEFORE the actual operation executes
07:50:13 <fizzie> (Can be useful on, say, some mobile device that doesn't cope well with a 701-page pdf.)
07:51:18 <kmc> web browser developers like to use "the web platform spec as a single page" as a stress test :)
07:52:01 <fizzie> Also, I strongly suspect bitshifting unsigned ints doesn't have the usual "result is reduced modulo 2^width" rule because that'd complicate the implementation on those many, many systems that do something like "mask shift count to K bits".
07:52:38 <ais523> fizzie: yes, IIRC that's the normally given rationale for "out of range shifts are UB"
07:52:57 <b_jonas> apparently the indexed 16-bit instructions take 1 cycle more when there's a carry in adding the index. that's clever
07:53:06 <ais523> fwiw, out of range shifts in Verity just give 0 (or possibly produce invalid output), but that's because I only allow shifts by constants
07:55:06 <fizzie> The shift operators also differ from many other binary operators in that the type of the result is determined based on only the left operand, and the type of the right operand is ignored. ("The description of shift operators in K&R suggests that shifting by a long count should force the left operand to be widened to long before being shifted. A more intuitive practice, endorsed by the C89 ...
07:55:12 <fizzie> ... Committee, is that the type of the shift count has no bearing on the type of the result." -- C99 rationale.)
07:55:36 <fizzie> The C11 rationale document seems to be still not done.
07:55:47 <kmc> there's a rationale document separate from the spec?
07:56:13 <kmc> i'm imagining this as like "C11: the unauthorized biography"
07:56:17 <fizzie> "Yes, there are plans to update the existing Rationale to include C11. Since it's an informal document, there's no planned ETA, but it's on our to-do list." (from January 31, 2012.)
07:56:17 <ais523> yep, it's unofficial, it's the committee saying "here's why we did things the way we did"
07:56:22 <kmc> tales of wild after-hours cocaine parties on the ISO 9899 committee
07:56:35 <kmc> "fuck you, that's why"
07:56:46 <Bike> "thought it was funny"
07:56:48 <kmc> ☠ UNDEFINED BEHAVIOR ☠
07:56:49 <ais523> probably for much the same reason that many websites have FAQs
07:56:56 <olsner> "after enough drugs it seemed like a good idea, that's why"
07:57:17 <kmc> i think in any good FAQ the first Q is just "Dear god why?"
07:57:22 <olsner> "the editor didn't realize it was a joke"
07:57:50 <kmc> speaking of enough drugs, http://junkyardmessiah.tumblr.com/post/76403947862/chaoscontrolled123-luke-and-i-were-looking-at
07:57:54 <fizzie> Incidentally, recently came across this, the committee response is somehow quite amusing: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_257.htm
07:57:55 <kmc> 600 year old butt-song from hell
07:58:20 <ais523> DRs cost quite a bit of money to file
08:00:13 <fizzie> They do? I've always sort of assumed anyone can go and submit them.
08:00:22 <fizzie> Based on things like http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_404.htm
08:01:13 <ais523> fizzie: anyone can, but they have to pay a bunch of money to do so
08:01:48 <olsner> is "decay" used in the standard for arrays decaying to pointers?
08:02:05 <kmc> fizzie: haha
08:03:18 <fizzie> olsner: No. it's an entirely unofficial term.
08:03:49 <fizzie> (The only instance of the word "decay" in N1570 is that joke.)
08:09:50 <ais523> anyway, I'd say the DR isn't a joke
08:10:00 <ais523> "a joke was left in the standard by mistake" is an actual bug report
08:11:43 <kmc> they have to make it expensive otherwise people will submit DRs like "pls change all the syntax to Lisp", like Rust gets >_>
08:14:05 <Bike> so you're saying that C and Something Awful use the same strategy to deter trolls
08:14:30 <fizzie> It is an actual bug report, sure, but the kind of thing I wouldn't expect a random individual to make, if they had to pay for the privilege.
08:14:48 <fizzie> (I suppose it could be just someone rich enough.)
08:15:06 <kmc> Bike: hahaha
08:15:51 <ais523> most DRs are filed by companies, I think, especially compiler manufacturers
08:16:02 <kmc> as long as you can buy redtext for another committee member
08:19:18 <olsner> maybe they paid for some number of DRs in a year and were running out of time to file them all
08:19:37 <fizzie> Defect report procedures applying to JTC1/SC22/WG14 (the C standards workgroup) seem to be hard to Google for. (Some of the other JTC1 subcommittees have them more obviously in the web.)
08:20:24 <kmc> i wonder if any OS X bitcoin apps used that example code to generate DSA signature nonces
08:20:25 <fizzie> "This [submitting a DR] is supposed to happen through your National Body (a Standard-defining Organization which is itself part of ISO, such as ANSI for the USA), which will formally submit it to JTC1/SC22 or its subsidiary WG14 ("the committee".) -- In less bureaucratic terms, yet quite a bit more efficiently, you can try contact with the convenor of WG14 (who is also allowed to formally ...
08:20:31 <fizzie> ... submit defect report.)"
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08:26:14 <ais523> olsner: remember that Debian OpenSSL issue?
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08:27:11 <fizzie> olsner: It's a terrible shame uint64_t isn't allowed to have any padding bits, otherwise the answer to that question would be "because fread might end up generating a trap representation".
08:28:18 <olsner> does Apple support any architectures that have trap representations anyway?
08:28:34 <olsner> I was thinking about "something something endianness" as another possible explanation
08:29:13 <fizzie> I don't even know of any architectures that have integers with trap representations.
08:30:23 <fizzie> (Whoops, have to go a lunch.)
08:31:22 <kmc> a fried fungot sandwich
08:31:22 <fungot> kmc: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! all about macros, a wonderful!' i am sorry, in particular candidate countries. if the transatlantic relationship, but the parliament has possessed him, yet he talkes well, it's open source
08:34:14 <olsner> fungot: what's your endian?
08:34:14 <fungot> olsner: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going, tough one. if we solve it,...)
08:36:21 * kmc falls asleep
08:37:30 <fungot> luserdroog: to " print" statement should always remember the songs on p2p apps in scheme, besides, was not beyond normal credibility
08:38:13 <Sgeo> Does defender, haste do anything interesting?
08:38:24 <Sgeo> Well, lets you tap the creature when it comes out
08:38:30 <Sgeo> If you have need to
08:38:49 <ais523> Sgeo: there's a card in Future Sight with defender, haste, and a tap ability
08:38:56 <Bike> remember the songs on p2p apps in steam, duh
08:38:57 <ais523> luserdroog: are you a bot? fungot is
08:38:57 <fungot> ais523:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
08:39:01 <Sgeo> ais523: wwas looking at that
08:39:23 <Sgeo> I should look at Future Sight more closely, it seems almost like an UN-set
08:40:14 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
08:40:41 <kmc> `relcome luserdroog
08:40:42 <HackEgo> luserdroog: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:41:23 <Bike> http://unemployedprofessors.com/Index.aspx lol
08:41:31 <ais523> Sgeo: I think the Magic playerbase is split between the people who think Future Sight was the most awesome set ever, and people who don't like it
08:42:41 <luserdroog> although yugioh was a far superior cartoon
08:42:58 <ais523> I dislike Magic nowadays
08:43:13 <ais523> or rather, I like reading about it, but don't feel much pressure to actually play it, or buy any cards
08:43:46 <Bike> fungot: where did i go wrong
08:43:46 <fungot> Bike: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking
08:43:56 <Bike> i don't know what i was thinking :(
08:45:09 <luserdroog> Hm "Legend of Zork" would be a fun title.
08:45:40 <luserdroog> In the game-within-a-game you could play zork on virtual telex
08:46:40 <luserdroog> been reading too many programming books, have to make everything recursive!
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09:10:30 <fizzie> Hm. There was a group of about 30-50 people, with banners and such, out there on the street; they were playing (loudly) the song "They're Taking the Hobbits to Isengard" out of some kind of portable stereo.
09:11:47 <oklopol> sounds like a pretty amenable group
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10:18:07 <Jafet> I thought Isengard was in Sweden
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10:29:41 <fizzie> They could well be taking the hobbits to Sweden.
10:35:48 <fizzie> "Isengard (SE) - Epic Melodic Power Metal from Vikingstad, Sweden."
10:37:09 <Jafet> Is Vikingstad anywhere near Gondor
10:40:56 <fizzie> It seems to be right next to Linköping. Wasn't olsner from there?
10:41:33 <fizzie> "We could not understand the location gondor, sweden. Suggestions: Make sure all street and city names are spelled correctly."
10:44:56 <fizzie> There's a Gondorf near Bitburg, Germany, though.
10:46:37 <fizzie> (Named after Ganondorf, I'm sure.)
10:50:42 <Jafet> https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Vikingstad,+Sweden&daddr=Mordor,+Alkmaar,+Netherlands
10:51:22 <fizzie> One does not simply drive and so on.
10:51:41 <fizzie> "This route has tolls." Oh, I'm sure it does.
10:53:48 <Jafet> “This route crosses through multiple countries.”
10:55:05 <fizzie> "This route has giant spiders guarding Cirith Ungol."
10:56:26 <fizzie> (Well, that wasn't there. But to be fair, they do say "Walking directions are in beta. Use caution – This route may be missing sidewalks, giant spiders or pedestrian paths.")
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14:42:16 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i think in any good FAQ the first Q is just "Dear god why?"
14:42:17 <HackEgo> 1169) <kmc> i think in any good FAQ the first Q is just "Dear god why?"
14:45:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
14:45:38 <oerjan> especially the FAQ about HackEgo's recent move.
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17:58:53 <quintopia> fizzie: that mordor trip would only take 220 hours walking continuously! you could do it in a month or so!
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17:59:52 <Slereah> quintopia : You have my axe!
18:00:22 <quintopia> in this tiny font with no glasses i read that as sex
18:01:12 <Slereah> You are thinking of a different book.
18:01:18 <Slereah> Lord of the Cockring, possibly
18:01:58 <quintopia> snowmageddon part2 seems to be less of a disaster than the first so far. people can learn!
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18:49:24 <olsner> fizzie: I'm not from here, I just happen to live here :)
18:49:35 <olsner> vikingstad is in the middle of nowhere
18:52:17 <fizzie> Well, you're sort of emanating from there at the moment, anyway.
18:52:51 <fizzie> Incidentally, we'll probably stop for a night in Linköping somewhere in June.
18:53:04 <fizzie> So... what's there to see/do there?
18:53:49 <olsner> dunno, I don't really see or do stuff too much
18:54:25 <fizzie> I'll just check Wikipedia, then.
18:55:14 <fizzie> "Linköping offers a wealth of leisure activities to people of all ages. Residents and visitors are able to enjoy art, theatre, history, concerts, markets, festivals and sporting events."
18:55:21 <fizzie> "This article is written like a travel guide rather than an encyclopedic description of the subject. Please help improve it by rewriting it in an encyclopedic style."
18:55:57 <olsner> there's an aviation museum somewhere outside of linköping, some people have found that interesting
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19:01:40 <fizzie> Oh, you're one of those places with a river.
19:01:46 <fizzie> (I've spoken on the topic before.)
19:02:19 <olsner> indeed. (why would you speak about my river?)
19:02:33 <fizzie> Not your river, just cities with rivers and my river-envy.
19:02:48 <fizzie> (There's no river to speak of here.)
19:03:13 <olsner> if that's your kind of thing you can go on boat rides on the river, through locks and stuff
19:03:16 <fizzie> I don't know, there's just something about rivers.
19:05:12 <kmc> does the One Cockring also give you a permanent erection
19:05:23 <kmc> a permanent evil erection?
19:07:58 <kmc> http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Link%C3%B6ping
19:09:29 <kmc> almost every great city has a river or is adjacent to a large body of water
19:11:09 <kmc> or a fungot
19:11:09 <fungot> kmc: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell over....
19:12:52 <olsner> oh, there's also a lake nearby (10km ish)
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19:21:13 <fizzie> Google Maps has, for some strange reason, Vättern marked as "vattern" (with a lowercase first letter), with "Vättern" under it in smaller type.
19:21:19 <fizzie> Vänern is just "Vänern".
19:21:27 <fizzie> Something must be up with that.
19:22:26 <fizzie> "IT-ceum. Is a computer and computing museum, located in Mjärdevi Science Park where you will find many of Linköping's IT companies. The museum covers both ancient Swedish computers and more current events, such as the demo scene with its realtime multimedia productions. The exhibitions describe both the technical and the social aspects of computing. The museum's signs are both in Swedish ...
19:22:32 <fizzie> ... and in English. Free entry."
19:28:06 <olsner> it seems to have moved since that wiki page was written
19:43:58 <fizzie> "However, instead of putting the language [to block Tesla from operating stores in Ohio] on the Senate floor as a standalone bill, the ban was inserted as an amendment to Senate Bill 137--an unrelated bill that required Ohio drivers to move to the left while passing roadside maintenance vehicles."
19:44:05 <fizzie> That's always so sneaky.
19:44:34 <fizzie> I think I remember something very similar from the European Parliament.
19:46:18 <FreeFull> What's a good queue-based language for me to try? And please don't say fueue
19:46:25 <kmc> cool, demoscene stuff in a museum?
19:46:33 <kmc> is that a big deal in sweden as well as finland?
19:48:21 <olsner> well, still quite small I'd say, but big for being demoscene I guess
19:48:28 <FreeFull> fizzie: Something less tarpitty? Although I suppose I should give Qdeql a try anyway
19:50:02 <fizzie> Just start going through Category:Queue-based in asciibetical order.
19:51:54 * kmc imagines glorious winters in a snow-covered cabin, spending the sunless days drinking akvavit, frying reindeer sausage over a wood fire, writing MBR demos, and fucking on a big bearskin rug
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19:54:29 <FreeFull> Imagine if the alphabet was named after english letters instead
19:55:16 <fizzie> kmc: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/8d/59/c4/8d59c48bb992eb030dd6e5766206d18c.jpg was included in the monthly departmental email.
19:55:56 <fizzie> kmc: (Though in all honestly winters here in Southern Finland can be pretty "meh"; like the one we're currently having.)
19:58:49 <kmc> this week in San Francisco: 16°C and partly cloudy
19:58:57 <kmc> we're having our worst-ever drought though
19:59:02 <kmc> got a little rain last week but not nearly enough
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20:01:00 <kmc> there's already a "Hack the Drought" hackathon scheduled
20:01:06 <kmc> if that doesn't solve the problem then I don't know what will
20:01:50 <`^_^v> droughts can only be remedied by harnessing the power of node.js + mongodb
20:01:52 <fizzie> This week in Espoo: days around 1-2 °C, nights around -1°C to zero. Lots of fog and slush.
20:06:02 <fizzie> I had this thought I'd take a photo of the university main building every morning, then align them and... well, do some sort of a composite. Maybe just average or use some other aggregate function, or reorder them with a 1D SOM or something and animate. Whatever.
20:06:48 <fizzie> Here's a representative single frame: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140212-tkk.jpg
20:07:23 <kmc> `^_^v understands
20:07:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/^_^v: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/^_^v: cannot execute: Permission denied
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20:39:50 <HackEgo> hroughcoin datecoin orretuatecoin regopsitzcoin stacoin neurcoin mespuncoin bfercoin anicerynxcoin mecorcoin mourcoin testfribacoin fingpensivecoin gramblincoin parcoin aniscoin cowcoin finicoin anemationcoin twormulacoin
20:40:54 <FireFly> Over here all the snow has melted over the past week; now there's not even any slush left
20:41:20 <FireFly> By this rate we'll have spring in time for the sports break when you typically go north to ski
20:42:40 <HackEgo> words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
20:44:42 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's/20/\${1-&}/' bin/coins; coins
20:44:45 <HackEgo> billecoin eemcoin mancoin fmcoin lobolcoin lockcoin toncoin eturacoin kippingcoin admirilcoin m-codycoin vetcoin bombincoin machelpcoin threkellcoin miniction2coin lewaycoin conveycoin laancoin udacidcoin
20:44:53 <HackEgo> feiffcoin fcrewcoin denteriftycoin epidcoin tgtecoin
20:45:20 <ion> `coins --finnish
20:45:51 <nortti> I'm pretty sure finnish does not use 'ß'
20:46:11 <ion> nortti: Perhaps --esolangs does.
20:46:19 <HackEgo> dadecoin nuttcoin geninicoin itetunacoin autopingcoin delacoin ddgeecoin norftendocoin amulacoin spazioncoin
20:55:08 <olsner> who the hell came up with 1 *and a half* stop bit?
20:55:37 <fizzie> 1 was too little, 2 was too much?
20:56:45 <olsner> vt100 defaults to 1.5 stop bits and can't be changed, MESS' verious serial emulation stuff doesn't seem to have code for talking to that
20:56:49 <kmc> When the CCITT… was standardizing ATM, parties from the United States wanted a 64-byte payload…; parties from Europe wanted 32-byte payloads. Most of the European parties eventually came around to the arguments made by the Americans, but France and a few others held out… 48 bytes (plus 5 header bytes = 53) was chosen as a compromise between the two sides."
20:59:09 <fizzie> I think I've wondered where the 53 octet frame size comes from.
21:00:39 <olsner> (but note that MESS emulates 1.5 stop bits well enough that the simulated null modem sending 1 stop bit *doesn't* work)
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21:35:38 <ion> http://terrycavanaghgames.com/maverickbird/
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21:57:01 <int-e> ion: owie. I reached 10, time to give up :)
21:57:13 <ion> I got fed up at 6
21:58:13 <int-e> so at 10 you get a orange circle described as a "bronze medal"
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22:13:57 <zzo38> How can you command GCC to output all preprocessor macros?
22:15:57 <quintopia> it's not a flappy bird clone is it
22:19:00 <kmc> `run gcc -dM -E - < /dev/null
22:19:01 <HackEgo> #define __DBL_MIN_EXP__ (-1021) \ #define __UINT_LEAST16_MAX__ 65535 \ #define __ATOMIC_ACQUIRE 2 \ #define __FLT_MIN__ 1.17549435082228750797e-38F \ #define __UINT_LEAST8_TYPE__ unsigned char \ #define __INTMAX_C(c) c ## L \ #define __CHAR_BIT__ 8 \ #define __UINT8_MAX__ 255 \ #define __WINT_MAX__ 4294967295U \ #define __ORDER_LITTLE_ENDIAN__ 1
22:26:31 <quintopia> oh it's better than flappy bird. but still just as ridiculously hard. best i can get is 10
22:30:59 <kmc> flappy gcc
22:31:09 <int-e> up down up up down
22:31:32 <int-e> there must be a brainfuck clone in this, somewhere.
22:31:51 <quintopia> there's a brainfuck clone in everything
22:32:00 <kmc> that's how the light gets in
22:33:06 <quintopia> challenge: invent a flappy bird level such that the only way to win is input a sequence corresponding to a particular flappy-bf program at one second intervals
22:34:19 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/YRgK ... done :)
22:37:22 <int-e> quintopia: that sounds sort of interesting.
22:40:42 <int-e> I'm not sure whether it would be fun.
22:41:31 <fizzie> Kind of funny that it needs to be "- < /dev/null" (or "-x c /dev/null") instead of just "/dev/null".
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22:47:34 <oerjan> <quintopia> fizzie: that mordor trip would only take 220 hours walking continuously! you could do it in a month or so! <-- one does not simply walk into mordor hth
22:48:25 <fizzie> I kinda-sorta alluded to that already.
22:48:42 <fizzie> (Earlier in the logs, I guess.)
22:50:38 <int-e> oerjan: http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=363
22:51:38 <ion> int-e: heh
22:58:27 <int-e> less than 2 minutes till tomorrow, good night.
23:01:45 <ion> 23 hours till tomorrow
23:05:04 <zzo38> oerjan: Perhaps you should fly into, or teleport into, so that they don't expect you.
23:06:45 <oerjan> zzo38: see int-e's link
23:08:14 <zzo38> No I don't want to load any web browser right now, but maybe later
23:29:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo No comment.
23:29:31 <oerjan> `run chmod +x bin/^_^v
23:30:02 <HackEgo> rnarycoin 224coin aaicoin snaccoin tifcoin glucoin arambcoin disoroscoin lesunneccoin oftcoin perfcoin prolamicroncoin scolacoin meroscoin thcoin tipsoncoin stalkacoin ximalcoin wikicoin boulacoin
23:30:50 <oerjan> glucoin has few users, but they tend to stick together.
23:31:39 <ion> They also tend to have hyperglycemia.
23:32:15 <oerjan> you don't need to mine stalkacoins, they will find you.
23:33:17 <oerjan> wikicoin _seems_ like a good idea, until you realize anyone can edit your balance.
23:34:07 <oerjan> oftcoin is surprisingly rare.
23:34:37 <oerjan> snaccoin is interconvertible with chocolate.
23:35:49 <ion> ximalcoin really ximizes the usefulness of cryptocoin.
00:03:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:03:38 <Phantom_Hoover> tipsoncoin exists for the sole purpose of backing that bot they have on reddit that tips people
00:05:28 <oerjan> i thought reddit had such bots for several coins.
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00:09:40 <HackEgo> telectcoin faerecoin revatiocoin cottocoin scabillwcoin braicoin mdpncoin concoin mazuringbraycoin jamachcoin univalcoin procoin udacoin chromeastavcoin imelbercoin huntcoin sublecoin cractcoin spacoin numpcoin
00:11:37 <kmc> `run words --finnish 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
00:11:39 <HackEgo> viivisintyväitettäcoin eroksiltanicoin torittämäämissäcoin lapistavanicoin lansacoin muodattammecoin merkittavisicoin elä-konejacoin yksityitäköcoin kuksesittaanistänsäcoin hierastansacoin puneittävällisicoin suoduktuurtaammecoin salailemälläcoin sumeerapiannetteliaisemmicoin kuuntiavaapuncoin kiriipimäksesimmaksencoin komaavienneco
00:12:55 <oerjan> faerecoin turn into flowers while you're not watching.
00:13:39 <FireFly> `run words --finnish --swedish 20
00:13:40 <HackEgo> tres fistenän boliittas bilda kityret makselkrökig sataltamerkan foriljd ahkeassa signatsområngar sänittavademporter vastunernaaviljonklips turematko köyheterinteill akusarjallemisk aliserades muodosel fattningarskymit jouristelitektaan havillkaduettensa
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00:15:08 <FireFly> `run words --swedish --norwegian 10
00:15:09 <HackEgo> isontorganda vangern ingsform bil innesångighet sochic trans pleif pandlådring volumener
00:15:21 -!- conehead has joined.
00:15:37 <olsner> `run words --norwegian 10
00:15:38 <HackEgo> regenesteverste apetsstyrkede dukturkinnhets formasingsveiutgav gysnittak toffshowets fisér systandslag reglengen imønstets
00:16:26 <ski> FireFly : you're south of me ?
00:16:30 <oerjan> formasingsveiutgav is the new form you have to fill out for your car
00:17:28 <oerjan> it's due to EU directive 56012345
00:17:29 <FireFly> ski: that depends on your location..
00:17:31 * ski thinks "foriljd" sounds nice
00:17:40 <FireFly> mine is slightly south of Stockholm
00:17:41 <fizzie> "elä-konejacoin" -- "live-machineandkoin".
00:17:51 <ion> foriljd my $foo (@bar) { }
00:19:43 <FireFly> I suppose that happens somewhat frequently with a nick like that?
00:20:02 <ski> now and then
00:21:25 <ion> If one has a common words as a nick nobody needs to apologize for using that word.
00:21:41 <ion> Everyone can feel free to talk about ions and i have no right to have a problem with that. :-P
00:24:09 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/8140451/The-New-Zealand-Government-cannot-confirm-that-their-Prime-Minister-isnt-a-shapeshifting-reptilian-alien-ushering-humanity-towards-enslavement-Link-goes-to-official-document
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00:25:53 <boily> good not-quite morning!
00:26:05 <lambdabot> fizzie asked 1d 10h 18m 59s ago: Why does metasepia leave when you do?
00:26:30 <boily> fizzie: it was running from my machine. a machine I ran DBAN on.
00:26:37 <Sgeo> Isn't the default loud in public channel?
00:26:42 <boily> Sgeo: I don't know why. it seems traditional.
00:26:52 <boily> fizzie: but rest assured! I made backups.
00:26:59 <ion> sgeo: nice
00:27:17 <boily> FireFly: uhm. let me start it...
00:27:29 <boily> (it should run from here, probably.)
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00:30:23 <metasepia> ESSA 130020Z 16006KT 6000 BR FEW004 M01/M01 Q1001 R01L/29//68 R08/29//64 R01R/29//59 TEMPO 4000 BKN004
00:30:40 <metasepia> CYUL 130000Z 10007KT 15SM SCT240 M11/M19 A3031 RMK CI4 SLP269
00:31:07 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia.
00:33:02 <boily> (meanwhile, codu.org is throwing me 500 Server Errors. were there any new quotes and/or wisdoms during my absence?)
00:33:49 <boily> Taneb: it's a nice place :D
00:34:30 <boily> Taneb: http://www.dental-wings.com/
00:35:42 <boily> @tell fizzie *poke poke poke*
00:36:36 <boily> Taneb: there's a nice coffee machine that makes espressi, we play mttg during lunch...
00:36:54 <boily> (there's a lack of Vietnamese restaurants around the place, but I'm coping.)
00:37:22 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist.
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00:40:42 <oerjan> boily: we are still waiting for Gregor to fix the repository browser.
00:41:24 <oerjan> until then, we must rely on memory, which is lousy. although i did add a kmc quote today.
00:41:38 <kmc> `run quote kmc | tail
00:41:39 <HackEgo> 1114) <kmc> what did fungot say? <fungot> kmc: my implementation isn't supposed to sound rude. \ 1115) <kmc> BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills' <kmc> oh, they mean for your health \ 1125) <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them \ 1129) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to
00:41:43 <kmc> `run quote kmc | tail -n 1
00:41:44 <HackEgo> 1169) <kmc> i think in any good FAQ the first Q is just "Dear god why?"
00:42:05 <boily> good quote. let's try adding it...
00:42:13 <boily> (and having make fail...)
00:43:01 <boily> because yes, there is a Makefile to compile that PDF. that's y'all your fault.
00:45:51 * boily dusts his mapole, does a few practice swings...
00:45:52 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail | tac
00:45:53 <HackEgo> 1169) <kmc> i think in any good FAQ the first Q is just "Dear god why?" \ 1168) <fungot> kmc: any chance one can have a box full of tnt to throw around \ 1167) <oerjan> `quote 1146 <HackEgo> 1146) <oerjan> OKAY \ 1166) <fungot> boily: i'm robert fnord. here take a piece of freenode furniture \ 1165) <fizzie> 15:21 .. 15:41 <fizzie> I've got to st
00:46:19 <boily> oh. so, probably from 1166 up until the most recent.
00:46:48 <oerjan> whether there have been any inner edits i don't recall.
00:46:49 <boily> meanwhile, I'm updating my \LaTeX{} install. “pdflatex: error while loading shared libraries: libpoppler.so.27: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory”
00:47:01 <boily> oerjan: too complex for me at this time of day.
00:49:52 <kmc> ♫ put a poppler in your mouth when you eat at fishy joe's / what they're made from is a mystery, where they come from no-one knows ♫
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00:55:23 <boily> IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHL FUNGOTTING STUPID *INCOHERENT FRENCH MUMBLING*!
01:00:09 <boily> maudite installation mal foutue de veut pas upgrader non mais ça se peut tu faire des affaires tout croche de même.
01:02:58 <boily> (strangely, google translate is pretty accurate on that one.)
01:04:24 <boily> aïl âme se t'il dont ne l'eau dingue.
01:14:32 <quintopia> you aren't usually online at this hour...
01:15:09 <quintopia> congratulations on those dufour-lapointe sisters and all. also, everyone else. must be quite exciting up there.
01:17:11 <boily> I think I'll be onlining with a different schedule from now on.
01:17:43 <boily> go us! we are teh bestest!
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01:26:46 <quintopia> boily: why does it seem like all the best canadian olympians are quebecois?
01:27:07 <quintopia> boily: oh i forgot: happy darwin day!
01:28:22 <pikhq> Does Quebec have a winter with unique properties that would aid them in the winter Olympics?
01:28:47 <quintopia> boily: and the whole schedule change thing: you may not talk to me much before 9:30pm
01:29:48 <boily> quintopia: I think pikhq has a point there.
01:29:59 <boily> but I go to bed at 21h30!
01:30:33 <quintopia> boily: on weekdays, i work from 15:00 to 21:00
01:31:56 <boily> I shall inject myself with sweet #esoteric fluid on the weekends too.
01:50:45 <boily> I don't have an #esöteric addiction. I can quit any time I want!
01:54:37 <boily> outdoors are nice.
01:55:14 <boily> it's been a while.
01:55:38 <Taneb> BUT WHERE THE HELL DO I FIND SUMMER INTERNSHIPS
01:56:08 <Bike> just aska professor or talk at a bulletin board
01:56:10 <Taneb> Also I never did prove lens turing complete
01:56:12 <boily> Taneb: first you have to find a summer.
01:56:19 <Taneb> boily, I've got a summer planned
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01:57:18 <Taneb> I guess I could head over to the CS building a bit earlier than I have to and scour for bulletin boards
01:57:53 <quintopia> LUGECOIN: a coin that gets built up for half a year, then takes just under a minute to flat-bottom again
01:57:57 <Taneb> I wouldn't know which professor to ask, my supervisor is in the maths department (I'm on a joint course)
01:58:33 <boily> quintopia: is that a bad pun on “sled”? (en:sled → fr:luge)
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01:59:43 <kmc> a luge is also a kind of sled in english
01:59:48 <oerjan> Taneb: we have id, (.) and const, i think if we could find fix and the s combinator, that's enough...
02:00:23 <oerjan> (fix only needed because the usual y combinator in ski won't type in haskell)
02:00:26 <Taneb> @type perform (acts.acts)
02:00:38 <Taneb> There's the W combinator
02:00:47 <oerjan> i was looking for that
02:01:01 <Taneb> I used that in my fibonacci program
02:01:30 <oerjan> except i didn't remember how the action stuff worked.
02:01:32 <boily> time for me to go inhale a chapter...
02:01:39 <oerjan> so i tried to do something with tuples.
02:01:43 <HackEgo> rincoin hargcoin repuswamcoin chlorcoin tenevcoin noracoin checoin xbloucoin adhoocoin hidatedcoin .coin spectioncoin choolfschorumble-2dcoin conticoin chocoin xbfcoin plorcoin margegatediumbrainiolangcoin sedinalcoin loncoin
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02:02:10 <oerjan> Taneb: well pretty sure W (or join) _should_ allow you to build S
02:02:20 <HackEgo> foocoin divilladcoin fortunacoin hoccucoin affe7s8coin itilchicoin recurncoin objecoin playcoin crticoin bytendstufcoin malcoin restoclamcoin inccoin sorcoin underlcoin muxcrethratcoin bnecoin bincoin stachiahcoin
02:02:27 <Taneb> BCKW is turing complete
02:02:31 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Profunctor p) => p (b -> a -> c) (f (b' -> a' -> c')) -> p (a -> b -> c) (f (a' -> b' -> c'))
02:02:34 <Taneb> @type view flipped
02:02:35 <lambdabot> MonadReader (a -> b -> c) m => m (b -> a -> c)
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02:02:58 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Choice p) => APrism s t a b -> p (e, a) (f (e, b)) -> p (e, s) (f (e, t))
02:03:10 <oerjan> hm what's the dual of that
02:03:14 <Taneb> @type (.) ((.) ((.) join) flip) ((.) (.))
02:03:15 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
02:03:44 <Taneb> Not too hard to lensify that, there's S for you
02:04:00 <oerjan> good, then you just need fix, i think
02:04:15 <Taneb> fix is the tricky one :(
02:04:35 <Taneb> May be able to fake it with iterated?
02:05:33 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Contravariant f) => (a -> a) -> (a -> f a) -> a -> f a
02:05:50 <Taneb> > 1 ^.. iterated (+1)
02:05:52 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
02:06:02 <Taneb> That's the only way I know to get any recursion
02:06:23 <oerjan> although maybe in the way curry or church managed to fake things without k...
02:07:36 <Taneb> > lastOf (iterated (const 7)) 1
02:07:49 <Taneb> > firstOf (iterated (const 7)) 1
02:09:12 <oerjan> iterated will only give you terminating stuff, i think
02:09:31 <oerjan> like primitive recursion but with higher-order functions, like coq has
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03:29:39 -!- ?unknown? has set topic: fungots fall on fungot falls | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:29:47 <pikhq> It was only designed for the sake of having a very small implementation.
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03:30:29 <pikhq> But otherwise, well, it's effectively just a slightly funny subset of most languages in common use.
03:31:17 <pikhq> Sure isn't an INTERCAL.
03:46:36 <kmc> somebody has slid a "yBITCOIN: Introducing The Future Of Money" magazine-advert-brochure-something under my bedroom door
03:46:47 <HackEgo> greecoin dujourcoin beneticoin aaviacoin patocoin golcoin beauxcoin acronycoin gasoilcoin golfuckcoin justycoin estre-calcoin scecoin prectcoin pbleasircoin britscoin smurfarmacoin llllcoin karlicoin wakcoin
03:47:24 <kmc> those are some p. good coins
03:47:38 <oerjan> smurfarmacoin, for those who farm smurfs
03:57:32 <HackEgo> words --eng-1M --esolangs ${1-20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
04:00:57 <HackEgo> cat: bit/coins: No such file or directory
04:04:05 <quintopia> oerjan: i think i'm on the verge of finding a pattern that copies itself x times despite having m<=2 for every command? but not tonight...
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04:05:29 <oerjan> quintopia: well you need more than one cycle for it.
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04:05:36 <quintopia> oerjan: or perhaps i've already done it
04:07:54 <quintopia> oerjan: it occurs to me it's impossible. if a command can copy itself twice, then there will be two of them. so after, say, four cycles (two two-cycle passes) there must be four of them. better to have a pattern that duplicates a self-preserving pattern
04:08:06 <quintopia> but i think i have that in the latest template as well
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04:24:38 <quintopia> oerjan: a program that counts up from 0 in unary using only m<=2 (except to print)
04:27:30 <quintopia> sceql manages to be TC despite a queue that never shrinks. maybe we don't even need m=0! :P
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04:43:02 <zzo38> How common do IRC clients do syntax highlighting? Due to several features it lack to just connect using a raw connection with telnet, including auto-pong, auto-response, masking the password, and syntax highlighting, that is why I made up the one that add such feature, but, how common is it anyways?
04:43:12 <zzo38> I saw other one which doesn't seem to do.
04:43:50 <zzo38> Unless you don't have a color monitor, or perhaps don't have a color printing, why do you want a IRC client with no syntax hightlightngitng.
04:44:50 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: I have used handful clients and none of them had that feature.
04:45:49 <HackEgo> obducappedcoin jewaltkcoin blaimcoin bralcoin goydecoin chacoin wethcoin selemcoin tameicoin oischecoin curbazandcoin braincoin veliumcoin betacoin nummericoin halecoin parcoin sertcoin llacoin rentrojeccoin
04:45:58 <zzo38> I didn't expect it to, but, it is one of the things that is useful to me. I don't know which, if any, features are being shared by other IRC clients.
04:47:06 <kmc> syntax highlighting for what? source code? or the IRC protocol itself?
04:47:17 <zzo38> kmc: For the IRC protocol.
04:47:37 <kmc> most clients don't show the raw IRC protocol messages at all
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04:48:42 <oerjan> irssi has color highlighting, with theme files
04:49:12 <zzo38> O, so it does have such thing, then.
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04:50:31 <oerjan> i use a mostly black-on-white (but with some things light red or blue) theme called "clean".
04:51:03 <zzo38> What things is red and blue?
04:51:20 <oerjan> oh and the window borders are brighter colors
04:52:03 <zzo38> Shouldn't it just use the operating system's window borders though?
04:52:15 <oerjan> the time of messages is in blue, and in augur's join/quit messages there are some red symbols and his nick is blue.
04:52:33 <oerjan> not the borders for the whole window, but the borders for irssi subwindows
04:53:18 <oerjan> anyway i chose this theme because _most_ text is black on white so i don't feel distracted by too much colors.
04:53:21 <zzo38> That (second part) makes sense. But, do you mean augur's messages, is only his nick blue, not the other one?
04:53:36 <zzo38> Are the other ones in black?
04:54:10 <oerjan> it's not specific to augur, it's just that his were the only quit/join messages in this window right now
04:54:46 <zzo38> O, so, it color depending on what kind of message it is?
04:54:50 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: actually, another sensible use of colors in IRC is a hash-based nick coloring.
04:54:50 <oerjan> lines that mention my nick sometimes get some brighter red color.
04:55:06 <lifthrasiir> though it is less applicable for terminals.
04:55:14 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: yeah i think my original theme had that, which drove me crazy :P
04:55:42 <zzo38> I have used hash-based coloring for making pie charts, but doesn't seem so useful for IRC.
04:55:54 <oerjan> possibly it was something else. dark background perhaps.
04:56:07 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: it is very useful to discern two nicks with shared prefixes.
04:56:07 <oerjan> zzo38: obviously some people like it.
04:56:20 <lifthrasiir> there is no point to use that otherwise though.
04:56:25 <zzo38> Well, yes if you like it then that's good if implementations exist.
04:58:46 <oerjan> for example in the line above where lifthrasiir says "oerjan:", his nick is bright red.
04:59:25 <oerjan> my own messages have a red ">" which is black for others. things like that.
05:00:06 <oerjan> i think the theme files allow you to configure much more than the colors, though.
05:00:09 <zzo38> I have a black on green ">" for my own messages; other message don't have ">"
05:00:30 <zzo38> Like do you mean, to configure the size of the window and so on?
05:00:35 <zzo38> And macros and filters?
05:00:42 <oerjan> (although i didn't edit it myself, afair)
05:01:42 <zzo38> Will it mask the password? I seem to remember, some people have said, the program they are using doesn't mask the password.
05:01:59 <oerjan> zzo38: i think macros (well, aliases) and filters go in the config file, the theme file is for style issues.
05:02:09 <lifthrasiir> some clients do mask the password when it is sent to known nicks, e.g. NickServ.
05:02:31 <lifthrasiir> but it is mostly limited since IRC clients generally don't know what is a password and what's not.
05:02:39 <oerjan> well i have put the password in the config file so i don't need to type it.
05:02:55 <zzo38> My client masks the password if the command starts with "PASS " or "/PASS " (it doesn't have a /PASS command, but it can be defined using macros if you need it)
05:03:37 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: the same principle applies, since you'll see the message automatically sent to NickServ anyway.
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05:04:37 <zzo38> (If you type "NickServ" it won't mask the password though)
05:05:17 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: i don't see that message anywhere. i've set the freenode network configuration to use a server password.
05:05:57 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: did freenode support that? I never knew.
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05:08:14 <lifthrasiir> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup ha, that's really a good tip. I'll adapt that on the next reconnect.
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05:08:44 <oerjan> zzo38: btw my window size is set by putty, but irssi has layout configuration for the subwindows (i just have two normally)
05:09:30 <zzo38> As it turn out it is the same to me I have window size set by PuTTY, but there are no subwindows.
05:12:13 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure if i've included my account name in the password, as that page recommends
05:13:11 <oerjan> although it's almost never an issue anyway
05:14:34 <oerjan> also i now have tmux between putty and irssi as well, but all the tmux windows are full size
05:16:25 <oerjan> coincidentally, both tmux and irssi have green status bars
05:19:25 <kmc> Sgeo: what about it
05:20:03 <Sgeo> it keeps happening, and more or less trapping me inside
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05:20:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: on the bright side, it prevents the ground from catching fire hth
05:21:20 <kmc> why do you become trapped
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05:21:45 <Sgeo> kmc: I guess in theory I can walk around in 6"+ inches of snow, but it's not that easy
05:22:25 <kmc> do they not shovel sidewalks where you are?
05:23:07 <zzo38> I enter the password manually each time (using the PASS command) but have a macro for the NICK and USER commands.
05:24:01 <Sgeo> kmc: they do eventually. Some of them
05:25:10 <zzo38> When reading about SQLite I see that it says Firefox uses it. I thought Firefox uses JavaScripts, not SQL, isn't it? If you use Firefox maybe you know, how to access SQL with it?
05:26:47 <Sgeo> Pretty sure it uses SQL internally, but doubt it would give external websites an interface to use SQL, unless HTML5 specifies that such an interface should exist (I'm not sure)
05:26:59 <Sgeo> Extensions can probably access Firefox's databases
05:27:31 <kmc> in ~/.mozilla/firefox/*.default I have sqlite databases for: addons chromeappsstore content-prefs cookies downloads extensions formhistory permissions places search signons urlclassifier3 webappsstore
05:28:07 <kmc> there is also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_SQL_Database yes
05:28:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't mean on websites! I mean for extensions
05:28:39 <zzo38> Extensions are written in JavaScripts and XUL (although they can be written using HTML too), not SQL.
05:29:01 <Sgeo> zzo38: things that use SQL are almost never written purely in SQL
05:29:23 <Sgeo> They create SQL using another language, generally, and then run it
05:29:34 <quintopia> i wonder how oerjan gets by without reverse video
05:30:48 <zzo38> That isn't how I do it usually; parameters like ?1 and so on may be generated using another language if necessary but usually I write other things directly in SQL
05:31:15 <zzo38> Some functions and virtual table modules may also be written in C, though, too
05:32:19 <kmc> but wouldn't you like to run JavaScript inside your SQL engine https://code.google.com/p/plv8js/wiki/PLV8
05:33:08 <Sgeo> let/ec seems nicer than the usual imperative return, but some people who hate early return for causing confusion would probably also hate abusing let/ec too
05:33:27 <kmc> what's let/ec
05:33:35 <zzo38> I don't know why I would need to run JavaScript inside of SQL engine.
05:35:13 <quintopia> for the same reason you'd want to run WEB inside TeX
05:35:32 <Sgeo> kmc: syntax sugar for call/ec, which is short for call-with-escape-continuation
05:35:42 <kmc> and what's escape continuation mean
05:36:04 <Sgeo> Which is similar to call-with-current-continuation except the continuation can only be used within the dynamic extent of the given function
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05:36:20 <kmc> which means more efficient implementation?
05:36:41 <Sgeo> Yes, and possibly clearer to read too (knowing that it can only be used in a certain way)
05:36:57 <zzo38> quintopia: You run WEB *inside* of TeX? You can certainly make similar systems that run completely inside of TeX, but WEB uses external programs too.
05:37:02 <Sgeo> http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html?q=let%2Fec#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._call-with-escape-continuation%29%29
05:37:02 <kmc> what happens if you try to save/return it?
05:37:19 <Sgeo> Using it would give an error
05:37:50 <quintopia> zzo38: I run running runs inside of insides inside.
05:38:20 <Sgeo> http://pasterack.org/pastes/6784
05:39:11 <Sgeo> Saving and then using it all while within the dynamic extent of the call-with-escape-continuation should be fine though
05:44:43 <kmc> does scheme have any Undefined Behavior?
05:44:48 <kmc> in the C sense
05:45:13 <Sgeo> I think there's behavior that's ambiguously described in the spec
05:45:25 <Sgeo> Oleg talks about it somewhere, iirc, but beyond that I don't really know
05:45:32 <Sgeo> But that's not UB
05:45:46 <kmc> isn't function argument eval order undefined, for one?
05:45:57 <kmc> or "unspecified" in C terms
05:46:28 <shachaf> i,i behavior left as an exercise for the reader
05:46:38 <Sgeo> kmc: I keep forgetting about that
05:46:42 <Bike> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-4.html#%_sec_1.3.2
05:47:02 <kmc> i opened a bug for that os x documentation and cited the C11 spec twice (thanks to fizzie)
05:47:07 <kmc> am i a real language lawyer now
05:47:10 <Sgeo> "What’s really sad is that some so-called high-level languages like Scheme intentionally include undefined behavior, too. This may make Scheme look like a real systems language after all."
05:47:12 <Bike> i know some for-effect procedures return unspecified values cos the kernel guy wouldn't shut up about it. i think there's some other stuff, like, something to do with define maybe?
05:47:28 <Bike> why does everyone dislike undefined behavior, it makes perfect sense to me...
05:47:55 <Sgeo> "I have been preaching the ‘unsafe and undefined gospel’ for a long time in PL courses. Indeed, I have been preaching it for such a long time that former students still have T shirts with my quote “Scheme is just as bad as FORTRAN” for the same issue. Indeed, some HotSpot compiler authors may still own this T shirt."
05:49:01 <Bike> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.1 some UB in the behavior of eqv? on weird crap
05:49:03 <shachaf> kmc: what happens if you language-lawyer and then ken thompson says "we never meant for it to work that way, C89 shouldn't have allowed it"
05:49:14 <Bike> could look more but whooooo caaaaares
05:49:22 <kmc> i don't know what happens (did that happen)
05:49:53 <shachaf> do you count as a language lawyer or do you lose your language lawyer license or what
05:50:04 <kmc> is that like, language common law
05:51:25 <Bike> having a language explicitly do the common law precedent thing would be kinda interesting
05:51:30 <Bike> but would require easier "lawsuits"
05:51:49 <shachaf> isn't that how some specs are written
05:52:01 <shachaf> or e.g. alternative ruby implementations
05:52:23 <Bike> yeah, but like, explicitly. and presumably faster.
05:52:31 <Bike> "the legal system: fast"
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05:52:40 <shachaf> by the way, you can get non-DRM http://www.brokenagegame.com/ now
05:54:06 <Bike> did it have DRM before?
05:54:15 <Bike> or do you just mean it's released instead of the kickstarter alpha thing
05:54:23 <shachaf> they were just selling it on steam before
05:54:44 <shachaf> i probably can't in good faith recommend to people to buy things on steam
05:56:06 <kmc> "Isn't that just the wrong way?" "Yes, but faster!"
06:02:19 * Bike owns like a dozen things on steam, oops
06:06:36 <kmc> no metasepia and no fungot
06:06:49 <kmc> we're quite short on bots now
06:07:07 <kmc> ) hi there
06:07:47 <kmc> a nice box
06:07:53 <kmc> is that what they call a "boxed value"
06:08:03 <oklopol_> is this the game whose original kickstarter thing was this guy telling you how he wants to bathe in your money
06:10:38 <oklopol_> or maybe they already had gotten some money from the kickstarter and he was like mm moneys. or something. maybe. i should pay more attention to things maybe.
06:11:01 <quintopia> i just found alex churchill's stackoverflow posting about the second version of his MtGTM...
06:45:59 <quintopia> why does wikipedia say Clean is influenced by Haskell, but created 3 years earlier?
06:46:57 <jconn> lifthrasiir: +--------+
06:46:57 <jconn> lifthrasiir: |+------+|
06:46:57 <jconn> lifthrasiir: ||+----+||
06:46:57 <jconn> lifthrasiir: |||+--+|||
06:46:57 <jconn> lifthrasiir: ||||++||||
06:50:41 <Bike> quintopia: maybe the devteams knew one another. or the haskell in question is prestandard.
06:56:32 <kmc> time travel
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07:37:08 <fizzie> There's at least some fungots.
07:37:08 <fungot> fizzie: it's... kind of when you say python primitives weren't objects?
07:37:10 <kmc> welcome back fungot
07:37:10 <fungot> kmc: i thought so too. for simple data like lists symbols vectors numbers such? do you need?' or something, i guess some fnord is involved.
07:37:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:37:25 <kmc> ^style jargon
07:37:25 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
07:37:29 <fizzie> (It doesn't persist the style.)
07:37:31 <kmc> more fungot pls
07:37:31 <fungot> kmc: hey quux, we look in our routing tables as see that unix-weenish is rife with possibilities for misinterpretation. what's your problem.
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08:29:32 <Sgeo> I only now come to realize that with a named let, the named function doesn't have to be called in tail-call position
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09:02:47 <Bike> does anything else have named let?
09:03:18 <b_jonas> Bike: dunno, I think some other schemes probably have it
09:03:44 <b_jonas> and "named let" isn't too specific as a name, maybe some other language calls something else that
09:04:11 <Bike> none do that i'm aware of, unless you count half-made pseudoschemes ofc
09:10:30 <b_jonas> ah, r6rs actually calls it "named let". I didn't know that name.
09:12:05 <Bike> well like 'let' isn't usually a noun anyway
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09:33:34 <Bike> http://www.textfiles.com/uploads/apple2gscracks.txt sweet
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11:29:01 <Taneb> Is there a way to translate algorithmically from B,C,K,W to Hindley-Milner B,C,K,W with fix?
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11:58:32 <Jafet> Cracks were so much simpler in the old days. (Also, there was a Neuromancer video game?)
12:02:17 <fizzie> An Interplay adventure game, right?
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12:03:11 <fizzie> http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/neuromancer/screenshots/gameShotId,3603/ <- look, cyberspace.
12:05:58 <Jafet> Those are... rather unimaginative names. Compared to, say, shikata_ga_nai.
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13:42:57 <ais523> OK, the weather in the UK is just trolling now
13:43:03 <ais523> we just had a hailstorm that lasted about 30 seconds
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17:55:32 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Raspberry Pi in full frame rather than a circle, courtesy of a non-broken adapter ring and a more suitable pair of lenses: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140213-pi.jpg
17:55:39 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal It's still a completely impractical setup, since even with smallest aperture (f/32) the depth of field is that small, and it's not possible to get lower magnification.
17:55:43 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal A couple of shots of the ridiculous-looking setup: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140213-shot1.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140213-shot2.jpg
17:55:47 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal (Though the crank-to-raise-or-lower neck of the actual tripod did make focusing easier.)
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18:07:01 <zzo38> What does the MONITOR command mean on this IRC?
18:08:46 <Bike> https://github.com/atheme/charybdis/blob/master/doc/monitor.txt zzo38
18:08:49 <kmc> fizzie: nice
18:09:04 <kmc> a pair of lenses?
18:09:05 <ais523> zzo38: [524] ais523 monitor Help not found
18:09:12 <ais523> apparently it doesn't know
18:09:33 <fizzie> kmc: Yes, like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RevLensMac.png
18:09:40 <fizzie> kmc: (It's very silly.)
18:10:07 <atriq> Today I got marks back on a programming formative exam I did last term
18:10:19 * kmc has AP Physics flashbacks
18:10:39 <fizzie> On the other hand, the adapter ring (#2 in the Wikipedia picture) cost approximately $3 on eBay, so at least it wasn't expensive to do either.
18:10:41 <atriq> Lost one mark because I missed a shortcut I could take because the input list was assumed to be sorted
18:11:00 <kmc> do you put some kind of transparent cover over the "body" end of the reversed lens to keep dust out?
18:13:01 <fizzie> kmc: That could be nice, but I don't think they really do anything like that; would need to DIY it. Though I'm not sure I'll be doing this habitually enough for that to really matter.
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18:16:35 <atriq> Hey, can anyone golf the Python code "def f(n):return n if n<2 else f(n-1)+f(n-2)" any further?
18:17:49 <FreeFull> Could golf it by translating it into a different language =P
18:18:40 <fizzie> kmc: The pair of lenses in this case was the EF-S 55-250mm f/4.0-5.6 zoom (in the "forward" position) and the EF 50mm f/1.8 prime (reversed), but I had to zoom the former all the way to something like 225mm in order to keep the corners from going black, so the minimum magnification was approximately 4.5, which is really rather overkill.
18:18:52 <atriq> FreeFull, that's pretty easy
18:19:10 <shachaf> atriq: f=lambda n:n if n<2 ...
18:20:59 <atriq> !python f=lambdan:n if n<2 else f(n-1)+f(n-2)\nprint f(12)
18:21:02 <EgoBot> File "<stdin>", line 1 \ f=lambdan:n if n<2 else f(n-1)+f(n-2)\nprint f(12) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
18:21:19 <atriq> !python f=lambda n:n if n<2 else f(n-1)+f(n-2)\nprint f(10)
18:21:20 <EgoBot> File "<stdin>", line 1 \ f=lambda n:n if n<2 else f(n-1)+f(n-2)\nprint f(10) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: unexpected character after line continuation character
18:21:39 <atriq> !python (lambda n:n if n<2 else f(n-1)+f(n-2))(10)
18:21:40 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> \ File "<stdin>", line 1, in <lambda> \ NameError: global name 'f' is not defined
18:22:07 <FreeFull> In a hypothetical stack language, you could do f#[d2<?r:1-d2-f;]
18:23:09 <zzo38> I think dc would be better if having a "arithmetic if" command instead of the way it does conditions now; it just result only the corresponding entry on the stack but then you would still need "x" afterward to execute it.
18:23:51 <zzo38> (I know, it isn't dc)
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18:50:10 <FireFly> atriq: does n<2 and 1 or .. work in python?
18:51:55 <FireFly> !python f=lambda n:n<2 and 1 or f(n-2)+f(n-1); print(f(5))
18:52:04 <FireFly> !python f=lambda n:n<2 and 1 or f(n-2)+f(n-1); print(f(10))
18:53:11 <kmc> !python f=lambda n:n<2and 1or f(n-2)+f(n-1); print(f(10))
18:55:21 <Bike> what a strange way to write a conditional
18:55:31 <atriq> > length "f=lambda n:n<2and 1or f(n-2)+f(n-1)"
18:55:41 <Bike> bash is strange
18:56:29 <ais523> in Perl you'd more likely use ?:
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19:19:10 <quintopia> :( where is a norwegian when you need one
19:19:54 <quintopia> ais523: odds on resPairate being universal for m /exactly/ 2?
19:20:14 <ais523> quintopia: I'd say I believe it is, but am not certain and have no construction
19:20:56 <quintopia> that would be incredible if it were
19:22:40 <FireFly> old conversation, but whatever
19:24:38 <quintopia> has anyone here been to Berlin or Praha?
19:28:22 <kmc> i've been to Berlin
19:28:47 <myname> actually, i live in berlin
19:29:38 <kmc> "actually, i AM berlin!"
19:30:27 <fizzie> I've been to both, but not very recently.
19:30:42 <fizzie> Prague in 2012, I think.
19:31:00 <kmc> i want to go to praha
19:31:52 <quintopia> myname: i might go there in april. wanna be a tourist for a day? or recommend some less common activities to do?
19:32:21 <kmc> stuff your face with currywurst
19:34:10 <nortti> FireFly: python nowadays has `if_true if conditional else if_false` expression
19:34:36 <FireFly> nortti: but atriq asked for a golfed version
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19:35:29 <nortti> hmm, yeah. the and+or thing uses 1 less char
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19:36:22 <FireFly> I think it saves another char due to kmc's whitespace hackery
19:36:33 <FireFly> the and+or variant allows two spaces to be removed, but the if-else only one
19:52:23 <quintopia> kmc: oh that was going to happen regardless. that falls under "common tourist activities"
19:56:24 <kmc> this is definitely tourist stuff but the Mauermueseum and the DDR Museum are both very interesting
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20:22:36 <fizzie> In Prague, there was a whole lot of things related to beer.
20:22:51 <fizzie> Personally, I'm not much of a beer, but for people who are beer, there's a lot of that.
20:23:30 <fizzie> (Though I was there just for a conference, didn't really do much aside from that.)
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20:24:48 <FireFly> I found it enjoyable to just walk around in the city of prague
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20:27:58 <fizzie> I did a more turisty thing there with my mother, somewhere around 2000, maybe a bit before, but I don't really remember details too well.
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22:52:49 <oerjan> <quintopia> i wonder how oerjan gets by without reverse video <-- what?
22:53:17 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, oerjan doesn't have reverse video?
22:53:24 <oerjan> are you making a joke about the fact i prefer dark text on light background?
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23:05:17 <boily> good schedulœrjan evening!
23:19:44 <oerjan> <quintopia> why does wikipedia say Clean is influenced by Haskell, but created 3 years earlier? <-- presumably later versions of clean have adopted features from haskell, i think type classes are one
23:20:11 <oerjan> (as in, i vaguely recall clean has type classes, which were definitely invented for haskell)
23:23:45 <boily> oerjan: what is a kveill? google thinks it's Icelandic for “cry”.
23:24:12 <oerjan> it's actually norwegian dialect for "evening"
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00:02:00 <oerjan> <quintopia> :( where is a norwegian when you need one <-- clearly now that boily has changed habits, you have inherited his "never be here at the same time as oerjan" curse hth
00:03:41 <boily> quintopia: I can be Norwegian for you *wink wink*
00:03:52 <oerjan> well metasepia was never here when wanted to do ~metar before
00:04:00 <oerjan> and incidentally, still isn't.
00:04:08 * boily whistles innocently
00:04:23 <oerjan> (not that i've got a particular ~metar need at the moment)
00:05:02 <boily> the needs of the metar outweighs the needs of information.
00:05:14 <oerjan> quintopia: don't listen to boily, he'll serve you fake lutefisk made out of poutine!
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00:05:40 <boily> hm... a lutefisk poutine... I'll pitch that Capital Idea at the next joint I visit.
00:05:45 <metasepia> EFHK 132350Z 16010KT 9999 FEW013 BKN018 01/M02 Q1005 BECMG BKN013
00:05:49 <metasepia> ENVA 132350Z 16018KT CAVOK 05/M04 Q0983 RMK WIND 670FT 19023KT
00:06:21 * boily lightly mapoles his bot
00:06:36 <oerjan> i keep thinking KATL should refer to some secret lair inside the volcano.
00:06:38 <metasepia> KATL 132352Z 29008KT 10SM CLR 04/M03 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP113 T00441033 10072 20039 51014
00:07:05 <boily> oerjan: eh? which volcano?
00:07:36 <metasepia> an active volcano in southern Iceland, with an elevation of 970 m, covered by the southeastern part of the M–rdalsjökull Glacier.
00:08:11 <oerjan> i strongly doubt the original had an ndash in that position
00:08:47 <boily> really, Icelandic is making me kveill.
00:09:04 <oerjan> also the name of the dragon in the brothers lionheart
00:10:04 <boily> `learn M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
00:10:30 <oerjan> `? M–rdalsjökull
00:10:30 <HackEgo> M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
00:10:43 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/'M–rdalsjökull'
00:10:44 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/M–rdalsjökull: No such file or directory
00:10:58 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/'m–rdalsjökull'
00:10:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/m–rdalsjökull
00:11:16 <boily> uhm. what is the alphabetic order of an “&”?
00:12:20 <oerjan> well it's a ligature for "et" of sorts, i think
00:13:07 <boily> I put it at the end of the “M” section.
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00:16:35 <boily> there. merged and copied and pushed and everything else.
00:16:39 <oerjan> <quintopia> ais523: odds on resPairate being universal for m /exactly/ 2? <-- you are mean. i just about thought i could get it done for <= 2.
00:17:07 <quintopia> oerjan: hi. i need travel advice if you have any!
00:17:24 <oerjan> boily: i cannot guarantee there haven't been other wisdoms added
00:17:55 <oerjan> quintopia: don't travel, it's dangerous hth
00:18:12 <boily> oerjan: I'll scour and scry and search and sift through the logs for anything Wisdomian.
00:18:14 <quintopia> I will be in Flam,Getranger(sp?),Aalesund,Bergen,and Olden. If you know of anything that would be super-awesome to see in these places i'll thank you to tell me
00:18:34 <boily> quintopia: going overseas? adventuring in Deep Scandinavia?
00:19:58 <HackEgo> Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff repository (or selected files) \ ex
00:20:31 <oerjan> oh hm it's hard to find the diff numbers without the repository browser.
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00:21:12 <boily> I need to buy a non-crappy laptop before mid-April...
00:21:41 <oerjan> quintopia: i hear most foreigners think geiranger is super-awesome all by itself. you could go to the aquarium in bergen.
00:22:03 <oerjan> also bryggen, i suppose
00:22:23 <quintopia> i read something about bryggen. what's there?
00:22:25 * oerjan hasn't been to bergen since he was about 6.
00:22:58 <quintopia> my germanic-language-speaking brain sees "bergen" and just thinks "mountains"
00:23:49 <oerjan> quintopia: it's old architecture, one of the best preserved (perhaps the only? or maybe outside germany) hanseatic buildings
00:24:21 <quintopia> yeah i think that's on the list of things to do already
00:24:42 <quintopia> i enjoyed Rostock, so I ranked it pretty high
00:25:00 <oerjan> yeah i guess it's pretty obligatory if you're on an organized tourist trip
00:25:27 <quintopia> it's not that organized. it's a cruise. we get like 8-12 hours to do whatever we want in each place
00:25:31 <oerjan> if you're in geiranger, i have a hunch you might go glacier climbing
00:25:49 <quintopia> glacier climbing...should i do that?
00:26:29 <boily> climb the glacier! show it who's boss!
00:26:42 <oerjan> quintopia: a guided tour, presumably.
00:27:25 <oerjan> western norway has glaciers close to some of the fjords, anyway.
00:28:21 * oerjan went on such a trip once during a summer school university arrangement, but not at geiranger.
00:28:45 <FireFly> oerjan: oh, that's what the dragon's named after
00:28:54 * oerjan recalls he got a black toe from that trip, it took half a year or so to grow back out properly
00:30:37 <oerjan> quintopia: gangrene is no laughing matter. also, i already regret looking it up on wikipedia.
00:30:44 * boily recalls he accidentally his toenail off one time. apparently Canadian toenails have the same growth rate as Norwegian ones.
00:31:10 <quintopia> i'm sure we've all done it at some point. mine grew back kinda crooked
00:33:47 <boily> I don't know which of my scars is the stupidest. it's either my knee with: a car being washed, a bush and a flowerbed; or my forehead with: a freezer, a furnace airduct and a sewing machine desk.
00:39:47 <Sgeo> Terran Republic = Peacekeepers?
00:40:09 <Sgeo> Certainly seem thematically similar
00:40:18 <oerjan> is this the kind of peace where it's peaceful because no one's alive
00:41:42 <Sgeo> I think the peacekeepers/TR themselves would still be alive
00:42:02 <Sgeo> I guess not quite as peaceful though
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00:50:31 * boily is stuck with http://youtu.be/j-3Fgrn7Rls in his ears ♪
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01:15:16 <oerjan> i hear putting q-tips in your ears is dangerous.
01:17:39 <oerjan> His product, which he named "Baby Gays", [...]
01:19:52 <boily> oerjan: «Mise en garde: Pour nettoyer les oreilles, passer délicatement le cure-oreille sur la surface externe, en évitant de pénétrer dans le canal auditif. Garder hors de la portée des jeunes enfants.»
01:20:13 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: what if my brains are made of qtips?
01:21:22 <oerjan> what if qtips are made of brains!
01:23:00 <Sgeo> "... I purposefully spill mercury ..."
01:23:06 <boily> ah, the good ol' feeling of insanity that this chännel exudes.
01:23:46 <zzo38> I found a program containing a comment "Let's get fired because I wrote this stupid comment"
01:24:16 <zzo38> (It is the only comment in the program)
01:24:31 <Sgeo> I wonder how many Linux-using anti-swearing people know about the swears in comments in the Linux source
01:24:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AK8yg5s2ps&list=PL786EBDC8D2B4CD1D
01:25:05 <boily> quintopia: speaking of brains, you should try smalahove when Norwaying.
01:25:20 <zzo38> boily: Is it good enough, or not good enough? Is it good enough once you put two dots over the "a" in "channel"?
01:25:39 <oerjan> i'm sure smalahove is one of the tricks we pull on foreigners.
01:25:39 <Sgeo> oerjan: same person, but he says it in a differnet video
01:25:48 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGv_YVQHu7U
01:26:03 <Sgeo> Towards the end
01:26:14 <oerjan> Sgeo: he also says he is very careful with the cleaning up
01:26:15 <boily> zzo38: it satisfies me. the ä is idiosyntactic.
01:34:09 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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01:52:39 <Taneb> I seem to recall an esolang unspecified other than a couple of examples
01:53:59 <Taneb> A more interesting looking one
01:54:11 <oerjan> oh there was also ais523's that he'd forgot how it worked
01:54:46 <Taneb> Yes, I think that was what I was thinking of
01:55:26 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burn
01:57:54 <oerjan> the talk page has a few more hints
01:58:02 <ais523> as much as I can remember, at least
01:58:43 <Taneb> I think the specifications of my first ever esolang have been finally lost
01:58:51 <Taneb> Probably a good thing
01:59:17 <Taneb> It was a brainfuck second-derivative
01:59:53 <oerjan> that means it's a P fourth-derivative
02:00:32 <ais523> we need to start using P''' for BF
02:02:03 <ais523> hmm, I just thought of a beautiful way to troll oerjan
02:02:12 <ais523> create a language whose name starts with a letter that isn't present in the name
02:02:24 <ais523> like, call it "zxcv" but define the name to start with "m"
02:03:29 <Jafet> Do you have a way to troll oerjan that doesn't involve trolling everyone in general
02:04:26 <oerjan> ais523: don't tempt me to move INTERCAL to between Commercial and Complode in the language list
02:04:53 <ais523> oerjan: if you do, I won't object
02:05:17 <zzo38> I don't object as long as you are also keeping it filed under "INTERCAL" too
02:05:33 <ais523> I'd actually forgotten that INTERCAL was an abbreviation until you mentioned that
02:05:48 <ais523> s/INTERCAL/"INTERCAL"/
02:06:12 <Taneb> Oh god, my live esolang creation is in SIX DAYS
02:07:32 <oerjan> on the sixth day, Taneb panicked.
02:07:55 <Jafet> On the seventh day, add REST
02:08:28 <ais523> Taneb: do you have any ideas that you're going to use? or is the idea going to be worked out on the spot too?
02:08:33 <ais523> also, is this spec or impl or both?
02:09:08 <Taneb> I have a few ideas but pretty vague, I'm gonna try to do some audience participation, too
02:09:15 <Taneb> Probably just a spec, impl if I have time
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02:16:23 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1xu2kv/silk_road_2_hacked_all_bitcoins_stolen/
02:16:36 <Sgeo> I have no idea what's actualyl going on
02:17:19 <kmc> Sgeo: I think Silk Road 2 got hacked and all the Bitcoins were stolen
02:17:51 <oerjan> alternatively, the people adminning Silk Road 2 are pretending so.
02:18:18 <oerjan> at least that was what everyone said the last time this kind of thing happened.
02:19:45 <kmc> oerjan: or maybe that's what they WANT you to think! wait...
02:41:24 <Jafet> It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a HMAC
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02:45:12 <oerjan> i guess you can still call it a social hack
02:46:36 <Jafet> wrapped in a joint
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02:55:52 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence.
02:57:03 <Taneb> I haven't had authentic weetoflakes in ages
02:57:22 <Taneb> Actually I haven't been awake in time for breakfast in ages
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03:54:59 <oerjan> eating in your sleeping isn't usually recommended.
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04:59:01 <HackEgo> inforkcoin bowickethaxcoin intccoin undericoin doublecoin lyapasscoin cocccoin escutampercoin lessasscoin oracoin tellcoin iagcoin erixcoin reliucoin itnumecoin suxecoin hayrcoin udgedimacoin golfecoin thessimcoin
05:00:11 <kmc> good coins
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05:07:46 <copumpkin> not as good as the btc-e crash the other day
05:08:03 <ais523> "lessasscoin" is hilarious
05:08:08 <ais523> all the other cryptocoins are ass
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05:14:20 <kmc> damn I should have bought
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05:16:57 <kmc> i like "doublecoin", it does all the arithmetic using double precision floating point, wcpgw
05:17:08 <kmc> (please tell me bitcoin doesn't do that)
05:17:40 <copumpkin> that's why they're subdivisible to 10^-8
05:17:46 <copumpkin> because that's the fixed point multiplier :P
05:18:00 <kmc> the bitcoin ecosystem has a lot of clueless people in it now, but it seems like Satoshi and the other OG's knew what they were doing
05:18:11 <copumpkin> except for the bug satoshi baked into bitcoin
05:18:12 <kmc> at least in terms of cryptography & engineering if not economics ;P
05:18:29 <copumpkin> I hear his original code was pretty shitty actually, engineering-wise
05:18:44 <copumpkin> well you know bitcoin has a mini stack language in it, right?
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05:19:18 <copumpkin> one of the commands in that language accidentally pops one extra thing off teh stack
05:19:25 <copumpkin> or something like that, haven't looked at it in a while
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05:19:33 <copumpkin> so any time you use it, you need to push some crap on
05:19:46 <copumpkin> and that's pretty much unfixable without forking the whole shebang, so we're stuck with it forever
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05:20:38 <copumpkin> kind of offends the language geek in me
05:21:38 <kmc> http://tidbit.co.in/ "Monetize without ads. Let your visitors help you mine Bitcoins."
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05:22:13 <kmc> great so now whenever Chrome is chewing bizarre amounts of CPU i can blame it on this
05:23:51 <kmc> "20K hashes/client" /second presumably?
05:24:20 <kmc> TWENTY THOUSAND HASHES, EVER
05:24:40 <copumpkin> it's kind of a miniscule amount, unfortunately
05:24:44 <kmc> so a visitor is worth on the order of 1e-8 dollars per 10 minutes
05:24:50 <copumpkin> there's a reason people don't CPU mine anymore
05:24:52 <kmc> minus pool fees
05:25:05 <kmc> come back with WebCL :)
05:25:05 <copumpkin> they said they were looking into WebGL for GPU mining
05:25:06 <kmc> and litecoin
05:25:15 <copumpkin> but even that isn't really going to make much money
05:25:20 <copumpkin> there's a reason people don't GPU mine anymore :P
05:29:45 <zzo38> Do you believe in Cartesian Duality, Physicalism, Idealism, or Neutral Monism? My opinion is Neutral Monism.
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05:37:53 <pikhq_> copumpkin: Litecoin GPU mining at least still does something.
05:38:55 <kmc> not to mention dogecoin
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05:40:24 <kmc> zzo38: would it be fair to describe these respectively as: both mind and matter exist; only matter exists; only mind exists; only one kind of thing exists and it's neither matter nor mind
05:41:03 <Bike> so webcl's purpose is getting me to mine bitcoins for strangers, huh
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06:03:36 <zzo38> kmc: Almost. Instead of "exist", put "fundamental".
06:03:59 <zzo38> Others are therefore derivative rather than fundamental.
06:05:05 <kmc> in that case I would have to go with neutral monism, as well
06:05:25 <kmc> i'm pretty sold on monism through direct personal experience
06:06:03 <kmc> and it seems very unlikely that humans already understand the universe well enough that our current concepts of "matter" or "mind" accurately describe the one true fundamental thing
06:06:12 <kmc> though if I had to pick one to be closer I would go with "matter"
06:08:55 <zzo38> While that is a valid reason, it isn't how I would do it. Still, of course I don't know either, but I can make opinions, based on what I know about physics and mathematics and stuff.
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06:13:20 <kmc> what are your reasons?
06:14:24 <kmc> (it seems significant that our concept of "matter" has changed rather drastically in the past handful of generations)
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06:16:58 <zzo38> Some of my reasons are difficult to describe, but I can describe some of them.
06:18:41 <zzo38> For one thing, I am considering "matter" as the physical universe which includes matter, energy, subatomic particles, their direction of movement, spacetime.
06:19:58 <kmc> (I think the way science goes at present, if we do discover the one true thing, it's more likely to get labeled as "matter" than "mind" but that seems like a cultural naming preference and nothing more)
06:20:49 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that would be all it is perhaps, but I disagree.
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06:23:20 <kmc> zzo38: with what do you disagree?
06:23:40 <zzo38> kmc: I disagree with that kind of naming scheme, but they can do what they want.
06:24:03 <zzo38> (Both "matter" and "mind" are the wrong name for it.)
06:24:10 <kmc> do you have a name for it?
06:24:44 <kmc> "The truth is five, but men have only one name for it."
06:24:55 <zzo38> I think the "one true thing" is *really* mathematics, and not the universe. The universe is an instanteation of such thing, and it is possible for mathematical formulas to have multiple solutions, or might have no solutions, and therefore, nondeterminism, and furthermore, things that "work out as part of God's plan" or whatever you call that (I don't know a better way to describe it, hence the quote marks)
06:25:17 <zzo38> But I can think of kind of how it would work
06:26:10 <kmc> but if the universe is an instantiation of mathematics, why this particular one? why these particular values for fundamental constants that could be different?
06:26:12 <zzo38> Mathematics is the real reality.
06:26:30 <zzo38> kmc: Because it is what is observed.
06:26:32 <kmc> perhaps the most true model of the universe has no arbitrary constants, though
06:26:59 <kmc> or perhaps other people in different universes with different values are wondering the same thing
06:27:02 <zzo38> Yes, that is possible, but, maybe it isn't the case; it leaves to see whether or not anyone can figure out whether or not it is possible.
06:28:34 <zzo38> But, it is also possible that both those things are possible!
06:36:22 <zzo38> I can also say that, for example, you can have a quantum state vector which has to be longer due to entangled with other things, it can include "mind", but not really; rather it is something else which includes a "mind", but "mind" also includes a "matter" and vice-versa too, kind of, similar to the Taijitu, almost.
06:37:40 <kmc> it seems disappointing that the Taijitu is not recursive
06:38:32 <zzo38> I think I have seen a recursive version.
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07:12:48 <oklopol_> it seems disappointing that the paths in taijitu are not C^2
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07:14:32 <oklopol_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nat%C3%BCrlich_gewachsenes_yin-yang-.jpg nature does it C^\infty like it should be; also i hope you're talking about this symbol.
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07:29:48 <zzo38> I do mean the symbol having the similar shape like that wood
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07:41:54 <fizzie> Subject: ARE YOU DEAD OR ALIVE,FROM CENTRAL BANK OF NIGERIA
07:42:05 <fizzie> "Thank God that after all your surffer, it is now well with you, looking forward to make the transfer today."
07:42:19 <fizzie> After all that surffer, it is indeed good to get some compensation.
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08:51:12 <Bike> what's a one true thing
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09:17:33 <fizzie> Bike: "One True is the fictional hegemonic software program that takes control of individual human minds and entire human societies in John Barnes' two Meme Wars novels Candle and The Sky So Big and Black; --"
09:17:58 <fizzie> I don't think they were talking about that, though.
09:18:08 <fizzie> fungot: What is the One True Thing?
09:18:08 <fungot> fizzie: unequipped to represent swearing in cartoons? or is it to work between sun systems and other such slime infested garbage.
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10:57:02 <Jafet> What is fungot's opinion about oracle
10:57:02 <fungot> Jafet: so i'm " hqm". oh, this problem.
10:57:19 <Jafet> fungot seems to think it's a problem
10:57:19 <fungot> Jafet: yes, as i can figure out how to use it too. after paying dues on this machine is,
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12:23:59 <FireFly> fungot knows how to wield the One True Problem
12:23:59 <fungot> FireFly: generate an executable.
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16:48:10 <luserdroog> I'm too lazy to download the client, so I'm trying to use the webirc
16:48:22 <luserdroog> I can't figure out how to join multiple channels
16:50:08 <zzo38> I don't know either
16:52:37 <Taneb> I am running into the problem that I don't know how to not write in Haskell any more
16:52:53 <Taneb> luserdroog, #channel1,#channel2
16:53:01 <Taneb> Separated by commas, no spaces
16:53:40 <Taneb> Writing Haskell becomes a problem when you're actually writing Python
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16:54:56 <newsham> maybe you can let djinn write the code for you
16:58:51 <zzo38> Taneb: You can write in multiple kind of programming languages though isn't it?
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16:59:22 <Taneb> zzo38, Python does not support tail recursion
17:01:31 <zzo38> In a few cases it could be possible, if implemented properly
17:01:37 <`^_^v> because guido says being able to inspect the stack is more important
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17:07:26 <zzo38> Anoter way would be to implement explicit tail recursion
17:09:26 <oerjan> Taneb: I DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM
17:09:45 <oerjan> also, doesn't /join #channel work from the web client?
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17:12:01 <oerjan> i'm just wondering why luserdroog didn't know about that
17:12:27 <oerjan> or if he did and it doesn't work
17:18:34 <HackEgo> 217) <quintopia> who is guido van rossum <olsner> you could say he's a man who grew a beard but acquired none of the associated good properties
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17:57:37 <zzo38> Are there drivers for connecting displays and keyboard and other devices using ethernet?
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18:00:30 <Bike> you have a keyboard with ethernet?
18:03:01 <zzo38> I don't have such a thing
18:03:28 <zzo38> I have a keyboard with PS/2
18:04:22 <Bike> why do you want drivers then
18:05:55 <zzo38> So that it can be use in case I do have one. Also with file system device (possibly using Plan 9 protocol and/or FTP); that would be the most useful use of devices with ethernet
18:06:24 <Bike> do they even exist?
18:07:35 <Bike> doesn't look like it
18:12:40 <quintopia> zzo38: there are tools for transmitting i/o over ethernet etc. between computers, which, if you have enough computers, may accomplish the same!
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18:47:01 <fizzie> I don't think many (any?) of those are particularly Ethernet-specific, though.
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20:45:38 <kmc> http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.7087 I like how this abstract makes "the D-Wave machine" sound like an alien artifact discovered on the far side of the moon
20:49:05 <kmc> a quantum vibrator...
20:53:06 <kmc> used to produce orgasmic superpositions
20:54:17 <int-e> kmc: did you come from blog.cr.yp.to?
20:55:01 <Slereah__> Don't watch porn, you'll collapse their wavefunctions!
20:57:26 <int-e> 'precise terminology', djb is funny. "The latest speed reports for fully homomorphic encryption are—let me use precise technical terminology here, since I'm a big fan of careful benchmarking—ludicrously slow, but without ideal lattices they would be utterly ludicrously slow."
20:57:31 * kmc mis-parses "come from" due to previous topic
20:57:35 <kmc> yes, that's where I got the link
21:01:10 <ais523> did the previous topic involve modern INTERCAL?
21:05:41 <Slereah__> Is there any quantum esolang by the way?
21:05:44 <ais523> "Quantum INTERCAL" is an awful name, it's basically just multithreading
21:05:57 <ais523> and yeah, there are quite a few, but they all seem to misunderstand quantum computation
21:06:05 <ais523> and wouldn't actually be any faster on a quantum computer
21:06:22 <Slereah__> Well esolangs aren't really made for speed
21:06:28 <int-e> quantum intercal would have to allow superpositions of DOs and DONTs.
21:06:36 <Slereah__> I do have a degree in quantum physics
21:07:08 <ais523> int-e: DO ABSTAIN FROM (5) WHILE REINSTATING IT
21:07:13 <ais523> at least, I think that's the syntax
21:07:25 <ais523> it might be "WHILE LEAVING IT REINSTATED"
21:08:33 <int-e> So I was right. I had not seen Quantum INTERCAL before, just the concurrent one.
21:08:34 <Slereah__> And have a bunch of various states
21:08:55 <Slereah__> Like electrons would be bits and photons would be tits (eheheh)
21:09:29 <int-e> hmpf. "threaded", of course.
21:09:58 <kmc> programmers misunderstanding quantum????? why i never
21:10:13 <Slereah__> and I guess a bunch of detectors too
21:10:22 <Slereah__> With some RGN to simulate le quantum
21:10:45 <kmc> QC is so alluringly close to things that programmers find familiar, but it's actually completely weird and alien
21:10:54 <kmc> which causes a lot of confusion
21:12:32 <ais523> the normal assumption is that all the threads are separate and can communicate with the outside world
21:12:46 <ais523> actual quantum computing is more like, you have all these threads, but only one of them, chosen at random, actually does anything
21:13:09 <ais523> but this isn't the same as just running one thread chosen at random because they can interfere with each other, altering the probabilities of which one is chosen
21:13:34 <Slereah__> Well technically it's more like having one thread all along
21:13:36 <kmc> the idea that your computer's state is a 2^n-dimensional complex vector is pretty alien to traditional CS
21:13:45 <Slereah__> And then you project part of it upon measurement
21:15:49 <ais523> one thing I love about quantum computing is that you can never guarantee a useful answer
21:16:00 <Slereah__> Well technically it's also true with actual computing
21:16:01 <ais523> all you can do is increase, as far as possible, the probability that the answer is useful
21:16:14 <ais523> then you check it on a classical computer to see if it was right or not, if not, try again
21:22:48 <kmc> but a lot of classical algorithms are like that too
21:23:24 <kmc> it's an open question whether classical computers can do more in polynomial time when algorithms are allowed to be probabilistic
21:23:29 <Slereah__> There are actual articles about time travelling quantum computing
21:29:17 <ais523> kmc: is that P=NP, or some other problem?
21:35:10 <kmc> the class of probabilistic algorithms I had in mind is BPP (there are some others)
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21:36:35 <kmc> those are poly-time algorithms where you can decrease the error rate by a factor of 2^n by running it n times
21:38:43 <kmc> BPP contains P, but it's not known whether NP contains BPP or the other way or neither
21:38:55 <kmc> (which is super counterintuitive to me and I tend to remember it wrong)
21:42:59 <kmc> so yeah the open question I refer to is P ?= BPP
21:43:19 <kmc> definitely
21:46:18 <kmc> a world where BPP is bigger than NP would be pretty weird
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21:53:13 <ais523> kmc: are there any problems known to be in BPP but not known to be in NP?
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23:02:47 <kmc> ais523: I'm not sure. http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/11425/problem-in-bpp-but-not-known-to-be-in-rp-or-co-rp seems relevant
23:03:19 <kmc> (NP contains RP, and co-NP contains co-RP)
23:03:53 <kmc> it's thought that BPP doesn't have any complete problems
23:12:52 <kmc> classes like NP have an obvious complete problem, e.g. { (M,X,T) | nondet. tm M accepts X within polynomial time bound T }
23:14:33 <kmc> every nondeterministic TM recognizes /some/ language in NP
23:14:45 <kmc> but it's undecidable whether a nondeterministic TM recognizes a language in BPP
23:18:34 <kmc> you can think of NP as a probabilistic class where false positives aren't allowed, but the probability of a false negative can be any number less than 1 (i.e. all but one path rejects)
23:19:53 <ais523> kmc: that's similar to the oracle machine definition
23:25:29 <FreeFull> Jeez, that was a strong gust of wind
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23:27:19 <ais523> kmc: imagine a P-time program that has a TC oracle to consult with, but the oracle might be untrustworthy; a problem's in NP if the P-time machine can solve it all the time with a trustworthy oracle, and with no false positives even with an untrustworthy oracle
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23:28:39 <kmc> interesting
23:31:50 <oerjan> "TC" is unnecessarily precise though, anything between an NP-oracle and an "everything" oracle would work just as well i think...
23:32:06 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, but you can't use an NP-oracle because that would be a recursive definition
23:32:16 <oerjan> right, but e.g. PSPACE
23:32:30 <ais523> yeah, a PSPACE oracle would work just as well
23:32:43 <ais523> btw, the oracle definition makes the difference between NP and co-NP pretty clear to me
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23:35:07 <oerjan> i would assume you've read that PSPACE itself is equivalent to another such setup, where the P-time program can use random dice throws (as long as the oracle cannot know those)
23:36:38 <oerjan> s/know/predict/, i guess
23:37:39 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, those definitions seem less pure to me than the one for NP, though
23:38:18 <kmc> black panther party with np oracle
23:39:08 <oerjan> hm i wonder if there's anything interesting if the oracle _could_ predict the dice throws
23:41:52 <quintopia> ais523: the difference between NP and co-NP used to be clear to me. all the classes in the PSPACE hierarchy were. it was all just swapping universals with existentials, or prepending an extra one of those
23:42:13 <quintopia> but now i've forgotten exactly what the proposition all those quantifiers get prepended to is
23:46:42 <oerjan> i'd think any unquantified boolean expression in variables...
23:47:01 <quintopia> yeah but then what comes before the expression?
23:47:35 <oerjan> checking whether the whole thing is true or false
23:48:05 <oerjan> yes, with x an arbritrary number of variables though
23:49:18 <oerjan> well those are complete problems for the class
23:52:35 <oerjan> no, not quite, for P itself
23:52:47 <oerjan> you need a circuit then, not just an expression.
23:52:58 <oerjan> at least if you use LOGSPACE-reductions.
23:53:34 <oerjan> if you use P-reductions, you can of course use something weaker, even trivial.
23:54:27 <quintopia> i thought there was some restriction on the expression P? like it has to be DTM-evaluatable in polynomial time or something?
23:55:20 <oerjan> well by expression i mean an _actual_ expression built up with variables and boolean connections like and, or, not
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23:55:31 <oerjan> and that can be evaluated in LOGSPACE iirc
23:55:48 <oerjan> which is weaker than P
23:57:24 <oerjan> at least i recall thinking about evaluating expressions in LOGSPACE once, it's a little tricky if the expression tree is unbalanced
23:57:24 <quintopia> yeah, it's polynomial time as long as the expression is finite then, which all unquantified expressions in a finite number of variables are...
23:58:18 <oerjan> quintopia: well the expression is part of the problem you are solving, which thus by convention has to be expressible as a finite string...
23:58:20 * quintopia hands oerjan a poly-time 3-SAT solver
23:58:40 * oerjan goes to break some RSA
23:59:23 <kmc> it's easy to build a poly-time SAT solver, it just needs to double the amount of energy / matter in use at each time step, so.... watch out
23:59:36 * oerjan reads the fine print: O(x^Ackermann(5,5))
00:01:24 <quintopia> on the bright side, norway is still in the lead at the games, and i got a stroopwaffel for valentimes
00:02:25 <oerjan> despite several of our best having some bad luck
00:04:12 <oerjan> apparently our athletes are not used to doing competitive skiing in > +10 celsius temperatures
00:05:27 <oerjan> (that's 50 fahrenheit for you weirdos)
00:10:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Not if you sort by number of gold medals hth
00:10:53 <quintopia> hmm the U.S. is second in all-time winter olympics medals. Austria is third. Canada is way behind. I would have expected better from Canada.
00:10:56 <oerjan> i haven't actually kept up with the games enough to know what actual score is
00:11:40 <fizzie> "The gold first ranking system described above is used by most of the world media, as well as the IOC. While the gold first ranking system has been used occasionally by some American media outlets, newspapers in the United States and Canada primarily publish medal tables ordered by the total number of medals won,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and Canada used the total medal count on the official website ...
00:11:46 <fizzie> ... for the Vancouver Olympics."
00:12:20 <fizzie> Of course the only true ranking system is to order the table in ascending Levenshtein distance of the country name from the string "Finland", in which we've generally been doing p. well.
00:15:06 <quintopia> order gold-first, the top two are still norway and U.S., but then third goes to Soviet Union (for now) and fourth to Germany. apparently Austria gets on the podium a lot, but not in the top spot as often as Germany.
00:15:54 <fizzie> Finland also drops quite a lot when going from total to gold (in winter game medals).
00:15:56 <quintopia> it would probably be more fair to compare on the basis of golds/games attended
00:18:07 <fizzie> "Thomas Hicks (a Briton running for the United States) was the first to cross the finish-line legally, after having received several doses of strychnine sulfate (a common rat poison, which stimulates the nervous system in small doses) mixed with brandy from his trainers. He was supported by his trainers when he crossed the finish, but is still considered the winner."
00:18:28 <fizzie> (For the 1904 games' marathon.)
00:19:31 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_Summer_Olympics#Marathon
00:19:42 <quintopia> seems like the kind of thing they'd retroactively toss out of the record books
00:19:44 <fizzie> Must've been kind of different event, back then.
00:20:20 <oerjan> well historically, you're _supposed_ to die after doing the marathon.
00:20:25 <fizzie> Also this bit: "A Cuban postman named Felix Carbajal joined the marathon, arriving at the last minute. He had to run in street clothes that he cut around the legs to make them look like shorts. He stopped off in an orchard en route to have a snack on some apples, which turned out to be rotten. The rotten apples caused him to have to lie down and take a nap. Despite falling ill from the apples ...
00:20:31 <fizzie> ... he finished in fourth place."
00:21:34 <fizzie> "The participants totalled 651 athletes – 645 men and 6 women representing 12 countries. However, only 42 events (less than half) actually included athletes who were not from the United States."
00:21:43 <fizzie> In St. Louis, Missouri.
00:22:03 <fizzie> Easy way to rack up those medals, I guess?
00:22:47 <fizzie> [[ St. Louis organizers repeated the mistakes made at the 1900 Summer Olympics in Paris. Competitions were reduced to a side-show of the World's Fair and were lost in the chaos of other, more popular cultural exhibits. David R. Francis, the President of the Louisiana Purchase Exposition, declined to invite anybody else to open the Games and, on July 1 did so himself in a scaled-down short and ...
00:22:53 <fizzie> ... humdrum "ceremony". ]]
00:22:56 <fizzie> Such humble beginnings.
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00:26:22 <oerjan> <ais523> and yeah, there are quite a few, but they all seem to misunderstand quantum computation <-- hm i vaguely thought we had at least one that used proper quantum gates
00:29:35 <quintopia> quantum computing is already so esoteric it's hard to make an esolang out of it
00:30:15 <oerjan> <ais523> actual quantum computing is more like, you have all these threads, but only one of them, chosen at random, actually does anything <-- i am not entirely sure you're sufficiently less confused than the average programmer, here
00:30:44 <ais523> oerjan: I implemented a quantum computer simulator as an A-level project
00:30:57 <oerjan> okay, i guess that counts
00:30:58 <ais523> and ran Shor's algorithm on it
00:32:04 <kmc> oerjan: well the next thing he said was about interference.
00:32:13 <kmc> without that it's a pretty incomplete description, yeah
00:32:19 <ais523> also I was trying to fix the typical analogy that people use, rather than create a new one from scratch
00:32:38 <quintopia> i think whatsisname did a pretty good job of summarizing for the lay person. "You set up an entangled system to performs some computation on all answers simultaneously, such that the right is probabilistically amplified while all the wrong answers destructively interfere"
00:33:03 <oerjan> the thing is that afair you cannot actually _distinguish_ threads that have the same outside visible result, which is the same as those that interfere with each other
00:33:59 <oerjan> so saying that any particular thread actually runs is slightly dubious in my mind. although i guess the math works out.
00:34:17 <kmc> now we're getting into interpretation of QM territory :)
00:34:29 <kmc> bring back zzo38 the neutral monist!
00:35:00 <ais523> I know that someone who allegedly know what they were talking about claimed that practical quantum computers would be proof of the many-worlds interpretation
00:35:14 <ais523> on the basis that there wasn't enough computational power in the universe, thus the computation must extend through more than one
00:36:30 <oerjan> my view seems to be heading towards the fundamentals being information and consciousness, which only partially correspond to matter and mind
00:36:45 -!- kmc has set topic: Remove the stone of shame! Attach the stone of triumph! | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:37:19 <boily> good char siu evening!
00:37:38 <oerjan> but still i'm not really monist because i don't see how information alone can be conscious, nor consciousness alone can have ordered experiences
00:37:40 <kmc> ais523: what basis did they have for making an assertion about the amout of comput. power in the universe?
00:38:18 <ais523> kmc: I think it was based on the volume of the universe and the theoretical maximum information storage density
00:38:46 <quintopia> oerjan: no that's wrong you're crazy hth
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00:40:17 <oerjan> quintopia: whatshisname = aaronson?
00:40:52 <quintopia> ais523: it seems there could be a number of ways to store more information without requiring extra whole parallel universe. not that i'm opposed to the idea...
00:44:13 <oerjan> quintopia: i must be crazy i though aaronson treated that poor crackpot who challenged him to a P vs. NP bet the other day rather unnecessarily rudely.
00:47:26 <oerjan> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1687#comment-100407
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00:49:38 <oerjan> eek it's shikhin's evil mirror twin
00:49:39 <quintopia> zzo38: are you, in fact, a neutral monist?
00:49:52 <zzo38> quintopia: I think so.
00:49:56 <ais523> if a constructive proof of P=NP were discovered (e.g. P-time algo for 3-SAT), just how badly would it destroy the world?
00:50:35 <oerjan> ais523: assuming the polynomial is also reasonably small, all public key crypto, *whoosh*
00:50:37 <ais523> like, would we recover quickly from the death of all widely used crypto? would nothing happen because people fixed issues before it could be exploited? would the new algorithm lead to an eternal age of peace and prosperity?
00:51:15 <oerjan> and it would destroy public key crypto in _general_, unlike quantum computers (afaik)
00:52:07 <zzo38> It may mix up things badly but not the destruction of the world. necessary. And maybe P=NP is untrue which means there is no valid proof (but maybe that, too, is unprovable).
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00:54:09 <oerjan> it might also put a dent in private key crypto that isn't truly unbreakable like one time pads
00:54:29 <zzo38> Possibly that too.
00:56:01 <oerjan> since it might allow you to find by guessing which key gives the most readable decrypted message
00:56:11 <oerjan> or something like that
00:57:11 <oerjan> (this doesn't work for one time pad because then _all_ readable messages are given by some key)
00:59:29 <quintopia> oerjan: i read the thread. it didn't seem that bad to me.
01:01:32 <quintopia> ais523: crypto would recover if quantum crypto became readily available. however, all my BTC becomes worthless then, so let's hope it doesn't happen.
01:02:52 <newsham> lots of things become worthless if that happens
01:03:00 <newsham> plus lots of your previous encrypted data is magically transparent
01:03:44 <quintopia> eh i don't have much in the way of encrypted data i need to keep private
01:07:00 <oerjan> quintopia: hm i'm not meaning rude in an "insult with swear words" sense, but rude in a "doesn't try to understand that the other guy sees things differently (albeit insanely) and calls him dishonest if he doesn't live up demands he's never accepted" sense.
01:09:00 <elliott> It is that you bet $200k, keeping your confidence about the matter, but you have the choice of paying as low as one (1) US dollar, AND I have the right to refuse any amount above $1. I think that is clear. Let me know if you understand otherwise.
01:09:17 <quintopia> i see it as him being a busy guy who does have time or mental energy to try to understand every crackpot he comes in contact with. he dismissed a potentially lengthy and fruitless comment thread in order to keep the SNR high for the rest of his readers.
01:10:24 <elliott> I don't get that quote at all
01:10:36 <oerjan> elliott: ok he doesn't have the best english either :P
01:11:35 <elliott> I can't even think of any interpretation of that that makes any sense at all
01:12:57 <oerjan> it makes perfect sense to me hth
01:13:10 <oerjan> (if i don't try to assume the guy is rational, that is)
01:14:03 <elliott> that's kind of dissatisfying as an answer
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01:17:47 <oerjan> elliott: thinking some more about this, i think he has strange ethical principles about betting large amounts of money, that conflict with other principles about making this a real bet, in an unresolved way.
01:18:35 <elliott> oerjan: why not just ask for a $1 bet, though?
01:18:40 <elliott> scott seemed perfectly happy with that
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01:28:22 <kmc> i have two keyboards hooked up to this computer and i'm currently typing with one hand on each of them
01:28:26 <kmc> kind of an odd sensation
01:31:05 <Jafet> So how fast can you double tap
01:32:09 <oerjan> elliott: well that wouldn't be a real bet, would it >:)
01:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> watching bitcoiners realise that unregulated money is actually kind of awful is always heartwarming
01:36:30 <metasepia> CYUL 150100Z 26013G18KT 4SM -SN FEW030 BKN060 M05/M07 A2959 RMK SC2SC4 SLP020
01:36:40 <boily> the -SN. it won't stop.
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01:46:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, I wonder if trying to define lenses in Scheme is as silly as trying to define do notation in Scheme
01:54:45 <FreeFull> I'm not sure how well it'd work without the types
01:55:01 <FreeFull> You'd need a generic map, at the very least
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01:56:54 <Sgeo> Need, or want?
01:57:05 <Sgeo> Certainly want it for mapped/traverse, but...
01:57:22 <Sgeo> I believe Racket's map is generic across sequences but not all possible functors
01:57:33 <Sgeo> Or are you talking about the zipper with delimited continuation thing?
01:58:30 <oerjan> couldn't you just pass the map function to the lens as an argument
01:59:08 <oerjan> i guess that ruins lens composition = function composition, but scheme isn't big on the latter anyway, i think
01:59:25 <Sgeo> I'm completely ignoring lens composition = function composition
01:59:28 <Sgeo> I really don't see the point
01:59:43 <Sgeo> I have a lens as a structure containing a getter and a modifier
02:00:00 <Sgeo> Should I have it have a setter too? Are there lens-like things that have setters but no modifiers?
02:00:31 <oerjan> hm lens library's Setter is a modifier, anyway
02:01:16 <elliott> Sgeo: if you really don't see the point, then you really don't see the point of lens, which is composition with the subtyping hierarchy
02:01:17 <oerjan> and it's at the end of the hierarchy, so nothing weaker
02:01:40 <elliott> if you just want to define lenses then ok. (but they're boring)
02:02:48 <Sgeo> elliott: I'm kind of allowing the definition of lenses with no getter, although not in a particularly clean way (just causing composition to error if the composed lens's getter is attempted to be used)
02:02:48 <oerjan> <fizzie> I keep *doing* it. <-- i note he managed to accidentally evade your question, too
02:02:56 <Sgeo> Not really sure what other types of things there are :/
02:04:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: have you looked at the diagram at http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens
02:04:13 <Sgeo> I... tried, once
02:04:17 <Sgeo> I can try again
02:04:21 <elliott> traversals, lenses, prisms, isos are important
02:04:37 <elliott> the weakened versions of those without setting too, to a lesser degree
02:05:16 <oerjan> hm MonadicFold is that a bit new?
02:05:16 <Sgeo> I think I have traversals covered (or, as well as can be given the lack of generic traverse), isos are stronger than lenses, aren't they? But I do want prisms, haven't given them enough thought
02:05:34 <elliott> you don't have traversals unless they compose with lenses
02:06:13 <Sgeo> What's the difference between a traversal and a setter?
02:08:05 <Sgeo> Maybe I should give some thought to attempting a van whatshisname based implementation
02:09:11 <Sgeo> Also, Racket sucks enough at nested data structures that even lenses, by themselves, are interesting...
02:09:31 <elliott> you need a proper type system with HKP and typeclasses (or else subtyping, maybe, possibly, if it's flexible enough)
02:09:43 <elliott> or else awful ugly runtime stuff I guess
02:09:47 <elliott> but I don't want to think about that
02:10:55 <Sgeo> Also, I don't really get how typeclasses can be mandatory unless there are functions that need to be polymorphic on the return type. Racket does have generic functions
02:10:58 <elliott> higher-kinded polymorphism
02:11:17 <elliott> anyway, I suggest you study the design of the lens library more. then you will be able to make your own judgements
02:12:10 <Sgeo> Probably a good idea
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02:28:34 <Sgeo> (apply (compose1 compose1 curry)
02:28:43 <Sgeo> At this point, I should probably just use a fold or something
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02:42:28 <Sgeo> Fuck YouTube and fuck the cloud
02:42:40 <Sgeo> My favorites list seems to have been truncated to 100
02:42:54 <kmc> cloudy with a chance of fuck
02:43:00 <HackEgo> bibleiocoin wadublecoin feetlecoin iastacoin chacoin oaicoin atlycoin pumcoin utquethesecoin laughcoin bibillcoin q-revacoin wtfzomecoin gritseifcoin yagecoin ementcoin biblecoin smasycoin lolangcoin optercoin
02:43:59 <oerjan> it seems to be on a scriptural streak
02:44:33 <oerjan> i think wtfzomecoin could catch on
02:47:53 <zzo38> This is the chess game of someone's dreaming: 8/3q4/6nk/4P1pp/8/2Q3K1/4B2P/8 Black to play.
02:48:55 <oerjan> is this some known notation
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02:49:48 <zzo38> There is several software to interpret it (including my own "TeX Chess"), or you can do it manually.
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03:35:36 <zzo38> Uppercase letter means white pieces, lowercase letter for black pieces, starting at the rank 8, given each row, each digit means that many vacant cells.
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03:48:38 <Sgeo> kmc: I think this discussion would interest you http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1xw70y/tls12/
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03:52:52 <HackEgo> ballfroilcoin frabcoin korbcoin zoppcoin piecescoin lazacoin veicoin x-dcoin regocoin sendiecoin squatrovincoin cyclocoin eodecoin quatrestkindcoin gyptcoin chonalcoin lyapaschcoin anocoin chroucoin tingcoin
04:02:08 <kmc> so that thing which lets you make $0.000000078 per hour from your website visitors by making their browsers mine bitcoin is about to get sued in New Jersey http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N4/abelson.html
04:07:22 <Bike> it was actually deployed?
04:07:51 <kmc> don't know
04:08:27 <Sgeo> I am starting to appreciate Haskell's curried by default more
04:08:48 <Sgeo> Also wish Racket had less... insane curry function
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04:28:34 <kmc> currywurst is a good default
04:29:10 <Sgeo> Wish I could bring rudybot in here so I could complain about curry
04:33:07 <Sgeo> ((curry f) a b c) will NOT call f (and instead return a curry) unless the max num of arguments is reached. (((curry f) a b c) d) WILL call f unless the minimum number of arguments hasn't been reached
04:37:37 <shachaf> Taneb: I keep hearing that ZRH is very expensive.
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04:51:26 <Sgeo> http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplayspokemon
04:54:19 <Sgeo> Also, what is this 'cut' everyone talks about?
04:55:52 <zzo38> Do you mean the 'cut' move in Pokemon, or something else?
04:57:38 <Sgeo> The 'cut' move in Pokemon
04:58:05 <zzo38> It is a HM move, which can be used in or outside of battle. Outside of battle, it can cut some trees, and can cut grass too.
04:58:17 <zzo38> (They will grow back if you leave the area)
04:58:54 <Sgeo> Is it fairly simple to get?
04:59:21 <zzo38> You need an HM, a Pokemon capable of learning it, and I think you need a gym badge too.
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04:59:23 <Sgeo> Probably not as easy as ... saving ... appears to be
05:04:02 <zzo38> Does that explain it?
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05:07:44 <shachaf> can you explain this behavior:
05:08:08 <shachaf> $ echo $'a O\nai P' | sort
05:08:26 <shachaf> with LANG=C sort it sorts the other way
05:08:41 <oerjan> so what is the locale?
05:08:54 <zzo38> In fact LANG=C should *always* be the default
05:09:15 <zzo38> I always set LANG=C when working on UNIX systems
05:09:25 <oerjan> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a O\nai P' | sort
05:09:45 <shachaf> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a O\nax P' | sort
05:10:18 <oerjan> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a O\nai N' | sort
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05:10:44 <oerjan> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a Q\nai P' | sort
05:10:50 <shachaf> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a A\nai B' | sort
05:11:55 <shachaf> that's much simpler than the theories i was trying to come up with
05:12:02 <oerjan> i don't see the problem, it sorts _precisely_ like [[Language_list]] hth
05:14:03 <zzo38> Perhaps a more versatile sorting system would allow two inputs so one is used as the sort key. (For example, the other input could be generated using sed)
05:14:20 <kmc> you need 'cut' to get past a certain point in the game right
05:14:27 <kmc> as well as 'surf' and maybe some others
05:14:28 <zzo38> But a UNIX pipe doesn't take two inputs.
05:14:41 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, you need 'cut' and 'surf', at least.
05:14:58 <kmc> zzo38: do you have any chess variant based on pokemon
05:15:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Pokemon game.
05:15:54 <zzo38> kmc: I once tried making some shogi variant involving pokemon somehow, but never completed it.
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05:34:28 <ais523> kmc: it depends on which Pokémon game you're talking about
05:39:12 <Sgeo> dynamic scope is... tempting, as a solution to how to fake typeclasses
05:39:32 <Sgeo> Would need to provide the scoping at each time the lens is used, but...
05:39:37 <Sgeo> erm, the parameter's value
05:42:56 <zzo38> But, I like the game of Pokemon Card, anyways; I don't have large amount of interests in the other game
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06:14:58 <HackEgo> dumpingcoin allothesscoin lestolcoin dumbscoptocoin jumecoin taxianuiardingybilitategrougheficcoin albolcoin pseudcoin infursumamcoin podanguagcriptcoin byterchacoin concallcoin chicoin barbicoin resophyrcoin schesircoin chulgcoin tamploicoin percacoin greecoin
06:16:48 <kmc> `run words --german 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
06:16:49 <HackEgo> spezimcoin chaftensionencoin irchsmaßnahmercoin sonszusaticoin bungenencoin ivissessignifischecoin utmachofsencoin wischaldwirtsortcoin sterncoin cograrbecoin aufendescoin selcoin munischenagelcoin dasstatincoin gigenbegleichtcoin faktentmarocoin safroncoin geweichencoin vorschulspasthigkeitcoin hetendorkcoin
06:18:52 <zzo38> Now you have non-ASCII letters in it!
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06:24:35 <kmc> scheißecoin
06:27:11 <zzo38> What verb means, making someone else sleeping?
06:29:25 <Bike> sleepificating
06:29:47 <zzo38> Is that a real word?
06:36:15 <zzo38> I am trying to calculate a probablility of a deck winning/losing against a "59eye1Mewtwo" deck.
06:36:39 <ais523> zzo38: it isn't a real word
06:36:51 <zzo38> ais523: Then what is the proper word?
06:37:13 <ais523> not exactly right, but pretty close
06:38:07 <zzo38> What kinds of force?
06:38:23 <ais523> password2: not necessarily, it could also involve sleeping pills or similar
06:42:08 <password2> they are not going to sleep naturaly
06:44:15 <password2> and sedate does not always imply sleep too
06:45:01 <ais523> well at least it's a real word :-(
06:45:23 <password2> you can also say you tuck someone in
06:45:40 <password2> it depends on what you want to say obviously
06:47:15 <zzo38> I want to say to make them to sleep even if they would not ordinarily to do so in such a daytime.
06:47:35 <ais523> "tire"? that means "to make tired", which also isn't quite the same
06:47:48 <zzo38> Yes, probably "sedate" is OK
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07:20:18 <zzo38> A deck consisting of fifty-nine basic energy plus BULBASAUR [Lv15] is *guaranteed* to beat a deck consisting of fifty-nine basic energy plus MEWTWO [Lv53], even though the latter is OK in many cases (but less than 50%), and the former is pretty bad in general.
07:20:52 <zzo38> I can give you the card texts if you want them.
07:20:54 <ais523> does the bulbasaur have some protection from paralysis?
07:21:07 <ais523> by the way, it's usual to say the species and set that the card comes from, rather than species and level
07:21:10 <zzo38> ais523: No, but MEWTWO [Lv53] doesn't paralyze.
07:21:12 <ais523> because species/level can be ambiguous sometimes
07:21:18 <ais523> zzo38: oh, just blocks damage
07:21:36 <zzo38> ais523: It is ambiguous only with the newer sets, not in the original game, which is the only one I am considering.
07:22:03 <zzo38> (And, species/set can be ambiguous too, but only with some sets)
07:23:09 <zzo38> BULBASAUR [Lv15] has 5 HP and the following two attacks: - { * } RECOVER: Remove one damage from this card. - { % } POISON SEED: Defending pokemon card is poisoned.
07:23:43 <zzo38> MEWTWO [Lv53] has 6 HP and the attacks: - { @* } PSYCHIC [1+]: Add 1 damage per energy card attached to opponent's active pokemon card. - { @@ } BARRIER: You must discard one energy card attached to this card in order to use this attack. All effects of attacks (including damage) that affect this card are prevented during opponent's next turn.
07:23:51 <zzo38> Do you see how it works?
07:23:53 <ais523> and the poison effect beats mewtwo
07:24:06 <ais523> before it can get Barrier in place
07:24:38 <zzo38> Actually, the poison by itself isn't quite enough.
07:24:58 <zzo38> There are three other cards that can guarantee poison on first turn, but none of them are good enough.
07:25:21 <ais523> actually, I think the Mewtwo wins
07:25:51 <zzo38> I did consider that, and that is why WEEDLE [Lv15] and ODDISH [Lv21] lose.
07:26:21 <ais523> Mewtwo does 20 (or 2 with your notation) damage per turn: 10, plus 10 for the Grass energy that Bulbasaur attaches to be able to use Poison Seed
07:26:35 <zzo38> Yes, but you can recover!
07:27:16 <ais523> oh right, poison does 20 per turn, doesn't it
07:27:23 <ais523> because it triggers on both players' turns
07:27:32 <zzo38> Yes, it triggers on both player's turn.
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07:29:09 <zzo38> Now hopefully you can understand it.
07:30:08 <ais523> so the thing about that mewtwo deck is, why not use four mewtwo rather than one?
07:30:45 <ais523> you lose the ability to attach energy on the turn you play a mewtwo, but the opponent probably can't oneshot it
07:30:48 <ais523> so you can get back to the same situation again
07:31:25 <zzo38> I suppose it may sometimes work, but not always, and anyways that isn't the original deck.
07:31:59 <zzo38> You need to actually get the second one in time. If you do, then yes it works, in this case.
07:32:43 <zzo38> However, having four Mewtwo cards makes it worse against some other decks (those with GUST OF WIND, for example).
07:33:18 <ais523> they actually reprinted Gust of Wind recently, as Pokémon Catcher
07:33:28 <ais523> and it was one of the best cards legal in only-recent-cards-are-allowed games
07:34:15 <zzo38> OK, although I am considering only the original game. Yes it is a pretty good card.
07:34:28 <Sgeo> "the care and feeding of lenses"
07:34:32 <Sgeo> This amuses me for some reason
07:34:56 <ais523> it's better nowadays because people play so many Pokémon that have low HP but good effects from the bench
07:35:01 <ais523> and try to never let them become active
07:39:55 <Sgeo> Hmm, would I need to allow arbitrary Applicatives, or can I allow merely Identity, Const, and ... others specifically needed for lenses?
07:40:20 <zzo38> I don't like the new game much, and play the old one in either "cube constructed" format (there is a list of valid cards, and you can include up to four of any of them), or "cube draft" format (a bunch of cards are mixed up and drafted; you may then take any of them plus any number of basic energy cards to make a 60-card deck, and rules for evolution are a bit less strict).
07:40:29 <zzo38> But mostly I like the Pokemon card puzzles.
07:41:23 <zzo38> If you can make up any, please show to me; I like to see it, too.
07:43:52 <zzo38> (Note: You are allowed to include cards you do not own any copies of. This is the difference from the standard format.)
07:45:24 <zzo38> I happen to find that the tactics involved in Pokemon card (at least the original game) are extremely positional.
07:46:02 <zzo38> I don't know if you (or anyone else) agree/disagree with this statement.
08:00:05 <zzo38> I like Magic: the Gathering card puzzle too. Do you know how to buy that book?
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08:06:38 <zzo38> I usually use GUST OF WIND defensively, unless I can win on the same turn.
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08:38:53 <zzo38> Did anyone ever, in a game of chess, checkmate with a en passan move?
08:43:19 <ais523> it's possible but the conditions that can do it are very contrived
08:50:27 <zzo38> Yes, I believe that
08:53:47 <zzo38> I have seen a chess puzzle involving checkmate by en passan.
08:57:07 <Jafet> This should be easy to search for
08:58:41 <Jafet> A rarer checkmate move might be O-O-O#
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09:01:26 <Jafet> However, I cannot find an online database that allows searching by move
09:01:31 <zzo38> And that is easier to search for if you have a PGN file
09:02:05 <zzo38> I would like to have a database of chess games in SQL format; it could bein PGN, and I could then write a program to convert it into SQL so that it can be queried.
09:04:26 <zzo38> (The SQL could also be used to calculate statistics.)
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09:12:34 <zzo38> This is an easy retroanalysis problem (at least to me it is; I have solved it; apparently "everybody has already seen" it, but I haven't): 6b1/7p/8/8/8/8/8/K1k5. What did White just play?
09:14:20 <Jafet> So, I downloaded this list of 37000 tournament games, and there are 300 checkmates in it
09:15:38 <Jafet> Also there are gems like 41.g6 Nxe3 42.g7# Qxg7 43.Rxg7 Kxg7
09:17:07 <zzo38> What? Is that a typing error?
09:21:35 <Jafet> Sadly, it turned out to be a typo
09:21:40 <zzo38> Jafet: What tournaments are they, and what time periods?
09:22:03 <zzo38> Yes, I thought it must be a typo, since it can't be anything else
09:22:31 <Jafet> http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/pgn/
09:24:13 <zzo38> Without downloading them I don't know what time-periods/tournaments; do you know which ones are in the files *you* downloaded? (I don't even know which file you downloaded, either)
09:24:37 <Jafet> I downloaded all of them
09:24:43 <ais523> zzo38: if it's Black's move, Ka1 (from a2); if it's White's move, Ka1 (from b1), then Black played Kc1 in response
09:24:51 <Jafet> So, I don't know which file it is in either
09:24:55 <ais523> I feel like I'm missing something
09:25:23 <ais523> oh, the Ka1 if it's Black's move captures a knight that just gave discovered check
09:25:27 <zzo38> Jafet: Well, do you know what time periods they span?
09:25:28 <ais523> that's probably the thing you're meant to work out
09:25:55 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is my solution too; the king moved from a2 to a1, capturing a knight.
09:29:46 <coppro> Someone discovered a 549-move 7-piece endgame
09:30:36 <zzo38> coppro: Really? What is that one?
09:30:56 <zzo38> Do you have the FEN or PGN?
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09:31:01 <coppro> http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/diary.htm
09:34:50 <Bike> "These extreme positions are the outposts, the Everests or Mariana Trenches of chess’ state space: they should be hailed, visited and contemplated not only because they are there but because the lines from them can perhaps be analysed and explained in terms of some chessic principles." it's official: i don't get chess
09:41:01 <Jafet> zzo38: http://codepad.org/Yl4yEnxW I cut off some of the games and put 1/2-1/2 at the end
09:41:30 <Jafet> Most of them seem to be due to very confused players thinking that their move was a mate
09:41:46 <Jafet> Sadly, no actual mates
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09:47:26 <zzo38> Line 191 contradicts line 199.
09:48:41 <Jafet> That is one of the games that were cut off
09:52:42 <zzo38> How did it get cut off?
09:54:51 <Jafet> I did not expect lengthy continuations after a mate to be that frequent
10:00:50 <Sgeo> I _think_ that explicit rewriting macros make it easier than syntax-case to deliberately have an unhygienic symbol exposed at the ultimate use site, even when a macro has emitted a macro call. I am not certain whether this is a point in favor or against either system
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10:26:58 <Bike> that scenario sounds quite.... esoteric
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12:23:16 <oklopol_> Bike: chessic principles sounds like something someone would say if they've never tinkered with a combinatorial problem other than chess, and they've tinkered with way too much chess.
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12:24:21 <oklopol_> or maybe i just don't get chess
12:26:13 <oklopol_> but i mean how can you think that a combinatorial accident that severe in a game where each piece pretty much follows its own rules is guided by a "principle"
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12:28:12 <oklopol_> zzo38: so, you like chess variations, do you think the usual rules are somehow particularly optimal? like, say i take two pieces in the starting position and exchange them, will you get a worse game for any pair, or will it usually be just chess?
12:29:07 <oklopol_> perhaps at least exchanging a soldier with something will lead to a more aggressive game (or something stupid)
12:38:17 <quintopia> i need to go on the wiki and post things that are obvious formatting and policy errors more often. if i don't give oerjan something to fix, the wiki goes whole days without anything happening at all!
12:39:55 <ais523> you could add all the italics back into the BF Joust article so we can revert it back to the current formatting
12:40:02 <ais523> (note: don't actually do that)
12:40:32 <quintopia> what was italicized? i don't remember
12:41:25 <quintopia> i like italics. i think it improves readability when used on variable names
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12:45:11 <ais523> I don't remember either, random sentences / part of sentences, I think
12:46:13 <oklopol_> sometimes when i'm writing something i feel like using italics
12:46:23 <oklopol_> and then i realize it looks silly
12:47:10 <oklopol_> i mean if it's really important you want to emphasize it
12:47:37 <oklopol_> maybe i should use colors instead
12:47:55 <quintopia> try bangs! they are great for emphasis! and if the info is surprising, try interrobangs too!
12:48:08 <oklopol_> like 50 different shades of gray that tell you how erotic the sentence is
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12:49:44 <quintopia> black on black = "so hardcore, we had to turn the lights off while it was happening to save our sanity"
12:50:29 <quintopia> super secksy; highlight at your own risk!
12:52:35 <quintopia> don't worry, it was your uncle, not your mom
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14:09:40 <Slereah__> I am wondering about making a quantum computin' esolang
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14:11:10 <Slereah__> Possibly some Befunge like structure
14:12:25 <ais523> even "regular" quantum programs are an esolang
14:12:49 <Slereah__> Maybe in the future, they won't be~
14:12:58 <Slereah__> High school kids will learn about quantum java
14:14:50 <ais523> now I'm wondering whether to hope quantum PHP is never invented
14:14:58 <ais523> or to hope that it is invented so I can see what sort of disaster it is
14:15:06 <ais523> I think I'll go for "invented, but nobody uses it"
14:15:24 <Slereah__> If you crash it it will destroy the entire universe!
14:15:49 <ais523> Slereah__: the destroy_the_universe function is implemented so as to be able to quantum bogosort, I take it?
14:15:59 <ais523> also because the name's long enough to avoid hash collisions
14:16:16 <Slereah__> Quantum bogosort sounds like a good test program for my quantum computer
14:16:30 <ais523> (PHP's original hash function was mostly based on strlen)
14:16:37 <Slereah__> I guess a quantum befunge kind of thing would go well with my recent learning of object oriented things
14:17:42 <Slereah__> No, but I can't be arsed to write it entirely in C
14:18:49 <Slereah__> I guess I'll just try some particle beams, quantum gates and detectors
14:26:11 <Slereah__> Though I wonder if I can also work in some less artificial quantum states
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14:26:23 <Slereah__> Like just defining an actual wavefunction in a box
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14:41:45 <oklopol_> every instruction gives a superposition of 2-10 types of undefined behavior
14:42:48 <oklopol_> i don't actually know if php is notorious for undefined behavior; instead, perhaps the instructions give a superposition of different behavior just because they provide so many built-in functions they run out of words
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17:22:30 <Bike> oklopol_: exactly
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18:43:30 <Sgeo> Racketers are having trouble understanding fmap not in terms of 'elements'
18:46:54 <nys> damn racketers
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18:59:23 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Racket doesn't have a fmap that works on, say, functions?
19:01:17 <Sgeo> How many non-Haskell languages do you know provide a generic map that is as generic as Haskell's fmap?
19:01:51 <kmc> scala prolly
19:01:55 <HackEgo> zeicoin arbokucoin unreacoin thisesocoin haylcoin wakecoin nahcoin @!coin regxcoin limbcoin catemprocoin impcoin bulocoin pouilcoin symespeaseacoin nancoin ver2coin mailcoin fanjcoin treadacoin
19:02:42 <Sgeo> FreeFull: person tried to derive count based on fmap. When I asked what happens when used on a function, they said that fmap should not be lazy
19:02:49 <Sgeo> Racket logs are public
19:03:00 <Sgeo> <mithos28> (fmap f c) should call f over every element in c before returning
19:03:01 <Sgeo> <mithos28> if it doesn't and calls f later, f may be called in a different dynamic environment
19:03:01 <Sgeo> <mithos28> for certain functions this would change the behavior, i.e. one that wrote to standard out
19:03:15 <Sgeo> (This is after I attempted to describe fmap)
19:04:30 <Bike> should be e.g., not i.e.. that's what's important here
19:04:33 <Sgeo> FreeFull: e tried to, by passing fmap a function to imperatively update a variable
19:07:40 <HackEgo> olist 945: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
19:11:49 <FireFly> Oops, I somehow forgot to read 944 entirely
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19:24:41 <zzo38> oklopol_: This is a late response, but I don't know if the standard starting position of chess is optimal or not. You can play with random setups if you like.
19:25:52 <Sgeo> I'm half convinced that the whole functor thing is kind of a red herring
19:28:10 <Sgeo> lol qntm now has a new comment box that basically tells you the answer for the hint
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19:41:32 <FireFly> http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplayspokemon
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19:55:13 <nortti> http://wikitravel.org/en/Hell_%28Hades%29
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20:39:59 <kmc> zzo38: the SEP article on neutral monism is quite long
20:40:05 <kmc> i don't quite understand why there are so many things to say about it
20:40:11 <kmc> i guess this is what philosophers do for a living, though
20:40:20 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think so.
20:40:46 <zzo38> That is why, I can understand that philosophy can involve a lot of things to say about something.
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20:41:02 <zzo38> So, there really is many things to say about it, but also many things to think about it, too!
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21:25:26 <HackEgo> dotercoin shakercoin libergeomcoin polispcoin cobullcoin cusiccoin parnecoin closopcoin aawacoin ballecoin deliticoin sockcoin oftcoin adgoibcoin ylolmcoin toadsknowellocoin foberwmcoin lesscoin gingcoin ycoin
21:25:49 <kmc> neutralmonismcoin
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21:56:31 <kmc> hi JWinslow23
21:56:53 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:56:55 <JWinslow23> Been a while since I've been here last.
21:59:29 <fizzie> JWinslow23: grep says you visited briefly on 2014-01-12.
21:59:43 <fizzie> (Before that, 2013-10-30.)
22:00:26 <fizzie> For a calculator programming discussion, apparently.
22:00:44 <JWinslow23> Yeah, to tell you all that I'm going off the grid.
22:01:07 <fizzie> So you've joined ##calculators, then. (Disclaimer: channel might not exist.)
22:01:12 <JWinslow23> Hey, what were the bots we had here, anyway?
22:01:21 <fungot> fizzie: and that's another matter) still have souls! cvs: there is a source file, so that we know about the
22:01:58 <JWinslow23> Fungot? Really? A close-paren without an open one?
22:02:13 <shachaf> fungot is above matching parentheses
22:02:13 <fungot> shachaf: i.. i ended up with fun round-trips to uucp-land like this on unix: celibacy. what useful protection! how nice to find a way
22:02:19 <fizzie> The Perl version balances punctuation. (For the Funge-98 version, it's still on the TODO list.)
22:02:35 <fungot> JWinslow23: now how did that once and then come here to talk very much like c.
22:02:47 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
22:03:04 <fizzie> A couple of those aren't present, though.
22:03:39 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
22:03:55 <fizzie> It's having some... issues, related to a server move.
22:04:01 <fizzie> Missing the logs, for one thing.
22:04:29 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=define:%71%75%69%6e%65%20%60%71%75%69%6e%65' \ Alert!: Unable to access do
22:04:50 <nortti> `run paste `which define`
22:04:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/define
22:04:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
22:05:03 <HackEgo> define is /hackenv/bin/define
22:05:24 <fizzie> It's the "use Google to define a word" thing, also broken due to the web proxy not being in place.
22:07:02 <fizzie> You'd probably write a script in bin/x, then. But I'm not sure replacing bin/quine would be necessary, I'm sure the logs will come back some day.
22:07:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:07:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: JWinslow23: not found
22:08:14 <JWinslow23> I think I used to be "someone who doesn't give a BF" at one point.
22:08:51 <fizzie> That's part of the learndb thing.
22:08:52 <HackEgo> JWinslow23 is a Wisconsinite who doesn't give a BF.
22:09:37 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
22:09:41 <tswett> `cat /proc/self/uid_map
22:09:42 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/self/uid_map: No such file or directory
22:09:58 <tswett> Gregor: HEY, PUT USER NAMESPACES ON HackEgo RIGHT THE FUCK IMMEDIATELY thanks
22:10:38 <FireFly> The places where 'the fuck' could be used continues to surprise me
22:12:58 <tswett> FireFly: well, I guess the fuck it is an expletive.
22:13:20 <tswett> Of course the fuck, you can't just stick it anywhere.
22:13:50 <tswett> Can you put it before the fuck *any* stressed word?
22:14:01 <tswett> Looks the fuck like no.
22:14:48 <tswett> Maybe you can put the fuck it after any verb. Nope. But you the fuck can say "Maybe you can put it the fuck after any verb".
22:15:04 <tswett> The fuck before any prepositional phrase, perhaps?
22:15:14 <JWinslow23> http://img.ourl.ca/TwitterGrammarCheck1
22:15:18 <FireFly> Wait, I've seen a blog post about this..
22:15:19 <tswett> "I have the ability to go through time, I suddenly remembered while the fuck at a bus stop the fuck near a tree."
22:15:33 <JWinslow23> http://img.ourl.ca/TwitterGrammarCheck1.png
22:16:50 <FireFly> Oh right, http://douglemoine.com/english-sentences-without-overt-grammatical-subjects/
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22:41:36 <Bike> https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/important-kickstarter-security-notice he he
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23:03:36 <Taneb> My copy of Purely Functional Data Structures arrived :D
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23:31:20 <oerjan> <-- well since an impure language cannot really distinguish between the haskell concepts "fmap" and "traverse in the IO monad", he probably can, in a sense.
23:31:34 <oerjan> * <Sgeo> FreeFull: e tried to, by passing fmap a function to imperatively update a variable
23:31:44 <Bike> gonna traverse the fuck out of this shit
23:33:03 <quintopia> helloerjan. did i miss anything good when my server hung?
23:34:00 <FreeFull> oerjan: It feels wrong though ):
23:34:14 <oerjan> FreeFull: THAT'S IMPURE LANGUAGES FOR YOU
23:34:24 <oerjan> quintopia: no idea, i just joined
23:34:28 <Bike> death to the impure
23:36:49 <newsham> /* this function traverses in the io monad */
23:36:53 <FreeFull> Imagine doing the same in Haskell with unsafePerformIO
23:37:05 <FreeFull> You'd have to sequence all the elements of the list though
23:37:33 <quintopia> obviously nothing interesting happened before you arrived
23:38:03 <FreeFull> So you'd need a generic Foldable anyway, and by that point a non-pure solution doesn't make sense anyway
23:38:25 <newsham> /* this is a join for a monoid in the category of endofunctors */
23:38:34 <oerjan> quintopia: well you're not subscribed to the `olist anyway
23:39:41 <oerjan> well that's as far as i've got yet
23:40:10 <oerjan> i sense a significant number of further log lines in the scrollbar, though
23:41:07 <oerjan> also why i am i speaking like vaarsuvius
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23:54:42 <FireFly> oerjan: you haven't comitted familicide recently, have you?
00:15:19 <Jafet> ?let safePerformIO :: IO a -> IO a; safePerformIO = id
00:19:42 <shachaf> saferPerformIO :: IO a -> IO (IO a)
00:19:49 <shachaf> safestPerformIO :: IO a -> Fix IO
00:20:18 <blotter> discussing haskell on an esoteric languages channel... seems legit ;-)
00:21:17 <HackEgo> blotter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:34:23 <oerjan> looks like the drought here will finally end tomorrow
00:34:31 <ion> jafet: safePerformIO :: IO a -> IO a; safePerformIO = unsafeCoerce
00:36:14 <ion> unsafePerformState :: State s a -> a
00:36:19 <olsner> genericSafePerformIO :: IO a -> IO b
00:40:27 <shachaf> copumpkin: is it good for something, or just good in general?
00:40:45 <shachaf> maybe Free IO is more useful
00:40:47 <copumpkin> you should write a library for dealing with it
00:41:15 <newsham> ?let kindaSafeIO :: IO (IO a) -> IO a; kindaSafeIO = join
00:41:26 <shachaf> forever' :: Fix IO -> IO b
00:42:23 <newsham> forever? i hardly know'er!
00:42:38 <shachaf> copumpkin: let's go with Cofree IO then
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00:56:34 <zzo38> Cofree IO would have one response and then the IO action which can continue, to give you another Cofree IO, so you can stop in between each step.
01:05:38 <zzo38> I think, not quite
01:06:27 <Sgeo> Sounds like a generator
01:06:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, perhaps that is what it is more like.
01:06:49 <newsham> sounds like a state machine
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02:18:51 <Sgeo> Considering the usage pattern of functors in lens, would it be so terrible to have a container that also contained the fmap function to use on it?
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02:30:33 <FreeFull> Sgeo: If you implement lenses as a setter and getter, you don't need fmap at all
02:31:15 <Sgeo> FreeFull: but then how do I implement prisms, and can I even implement traversals?
02:31:44 <zzo38> That is what I did at first, implement a lens as a setter and getter, although at the time I didn't know any other way and also didn't know it was called a "lens".
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02:45:07 <blotter> does anyone here have any more information on Feather than the wiki provides?
02:46:38 <oerjan> except for ais523 who refuses to talk about it, not much.
02:48:15 <oerjan> there may be something hidden in the logs, unfortunately our bot-based search of them has broken.
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03:04:43 <Sgeo> FreeFull: I also feel like van Laarhoven lenses can help me avoid making mistakes, like having a lens be a pair of setter+getter instead of modifier+getter
03:05:03 <Sgeo> With the former, modify would be in terms of set+get, but I don't want to force the existence of get
03:05:13 <Sgeo> So I handled that, but I don't know what else I may be missing
03:07:15 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Well, you can always implement set in terms of just modify, so you should go with that
03:07:26 <Sgeo> FreeFull: and that's what I did do
03:07:35 <Sgeo> But I'm not sure what other pitfalls I have to be careful of
03:07:52 <FreeFull> Not sure if there are any data structures for which set would make sense but modify wouldn't
03:08:27 <zzo38> Even if there are some, then modify wouldn't be used except as a "const" function anyways.
03:10:41 <FreeFull> I suppose a data structure which doesn't actually store a value would qualify
03:12:09 <Sgeo> I want prisms to exist, I think. Not sure if I need traversals
03:12:22 <Sgeo> mapped already exists in terms of my getter/modifier pair
03:15:15 <FreeFull> Modify for that would have to use bottom in Haskell, and in a strict language, I don't know what it'd do
03:15:29 <oerjan> FreeFull: um no, modify works perfectly well
03:15:52 <oerjan> it just happens never to call the function to modify with
03:16:46 <FreeFull> oerjan: Oh, I suppose that'd work
03:17:00 <oerjan> just like map with an empty list
03:17:49 <FreeFull> I can't think of a data structure for which set is valid but modify isn't
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03:34:34 <Sgeo> I should continue attempting to write my struct-lens macro
03:34:48 <Sgeo> Even if I change implementations later, the macro would still be useful
03:36:01 <Sgeo> The funny thing is, I know how to write modify but not get
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03:46:02 <zzo38> That data Phantom a = Phantom; just has fmap do nothing, join do nothing... A data of the same structure is also called "Proxy", or "Finalize" (which is what I called it, due to reasons having to do with category theory).
03:46:32 <zzo38> For any final object of any category, there is a corresponding Finalize monad on that category, isn't it? (And, for initial objects, a corresponding Initialize comonad.)
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04:09:27 <Sgeo> So, Roy's deadly to undead energy thing... what if Durkon is standing too close when the sword is used?
04:12:31 <zzo38> Then maybe he will be dead
04:16:09 <HackEgo> beforecoin impcoin lingarcoin nybernmcoin lllcoin delcoin wherpiloventecoin 0x25666thicaencyklan/mcoin 1lemationecoin rincoin .yacuablencoin etacoin mentinrcoin choncoin condicoin hannencoin quancoin worbeitcoin spoolfebowlcoin kayakcoin
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04:17:10 <kmc> lllcoin -- the proof of work is finding a short, nearly orthogonal lattice basis?
04:19:28 <Jafet> How long before the arrival of etacoin
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04:29:40 <kmc> how's that work
04:31:06 <Bike> eddacoin. proof of work is done in the form of extemporal sagas
04:31:34 <Bike> https://twitter.com/yesterbits/status/434827571008925696/photo/1/large anyway
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05:08:57 <Sgeo> I guess at least some use cases for non-lens things in Haskell might be unnecessary in Racket, with a bit of imperative magic?
05:09:24 <Sgeo> Well, hmm, even if strictly unnecessary, could still be convenient
05:10:20 <Sgeo> Would rather have a 'how many items in this collection' lens than need to "modify" the collection with a thing to collect the answer
05:10:47 <HackEgo> malcoin waitcoin sokovcoin kelxircucoin miccoin fugicoin locktrycoin boilcoin wadcoin beforecoin quoicoin friedcoin selacoin lazepterixcoin versedcoin livingcoin synccoin proriggethisesocoin protatiumbradacronymcoin realcoin
05:12:20 <Sgeo> http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/13/tech/innovation/termite-robots-aaas/index.html?hpt=hp_bn5
05:12:29 <Sgeo> What's the point of avoiding the centralized blueprint?
05:12:37 <oerjan> i'm sure i've seen beforecoin before
05:13:14 <Taneb> Kentucky Friedcoin
05:13:35 <Sgeo> me gives boily one boilcoin
05:13:47 * Sgeo forgot how to /me, apparently
05:13:56 <Taneb> Sgeo, can you tell me why I am awake.
05:14:02 <Taneb> And apparently listening to Bloc Party.
05:14:11 <Sgeo> Probably because you're not asleep
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05:27:11 <zzo38> How would a hardware programming language be designed for quantum computers?
05:39:32 <kmc> i am sure that there are already papers on this
05:40:26 <kmc> i suppose that instead of specifying a block of logical equation "assignments" that happen at once, you would specify any self-adjoint operation on whatever subset of "variables" you like
05:40:55 <oerjan> unitary, not self-adjoint hth
05:43:39 <kmc> zzo38: it's hard to think about compiling a quantum HDL because nobody quite knows what physical form a quantum computer will take or what its primitive operations will be
05:44:06 <Bike> sounds like a job for rampant speculation
05:44:27 <kmc> it's like doing boolean logic but you don't know whether it will synthesize to CMOS gates or pneumatic tubes or DNA linking up
05:44:47 <kmc> (maybe it is less uncertain now; my understanding is sketchy and may be years out of date)
05:45:24 <kmc> anyway any universal quantum computer will be able to implement a CNOT gate, and you can compile any quantum circuit to CNOT gates + rotations, but this may not be a natural or efficient way to implement your quantum HDL
05:46:19 <Bike> are there any dna computer vhdls
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05:53:52 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I would think that you would specify self-adjoint operations, but that still doesn't explain much about how timing, measurements, etc would be specified; well, CNOT gates and rotations can be built-in primitives even if you can define your own things too
05:54:27 <kmc> I mean any quantum computer for the forseeable future is going to be kind of a quantum coprocessor to a conventional computer
05:54:46 <kmc> because a conventional computer costs like $20 and works at room temperature
05:54:55 <kmc> which makes them better for a lot of things
05:55:39 <zzo38> Yes, but I am trying to think of how to do it with hardware designing, rather than software (already QCL and stuff exists), and to allow to combine quantum with classical in one file
05:56:00 <zzo38> And yes, I too think it is supposed to be unitary rather than self-adjoint, but I am not a real physicist so I don't really know
05:56:16 <kmc> so probably timing and measurement will be dictated by the classical part
05:56:23 <kmc> you'll specify a measurement basis in the quantum HDL though
05:56:34 <kmc> i should really read one of these papers instead of speculating but that sounds less fun
06:04:35 <Taneb> Something quite odd just happened
06:04:45 <Taneb> Apparently the lock on my door does not work
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06:09:15 <kmc> did you have to bust your way out
06:10:31 <Taneb> No, but someone walked in
06:11:44 <kmc> while you were in a... compromising position?
06:11:59 <Taneb> No, but she was in her underwear and seemed somewhat confused
06:13:05 <Taneb> I asked her politely to leave
06:13:40 <Bike> does your door look like a bathroom
06:14:12 <Taneb> In as much as a door with my name on it can
06:14:35 <Taneb> My name is not "Toilet", "Ladies'", "Gents'", or any variation thereof
06:15:17 <kmc> whiz palace
06:15:42 <shachaf> isn't your name dutch, though
06:15:48 <shachaf> perhaps she couldn't read dutch
06:16:00 <kmc> SW∃DíSH TJÖILETŜ
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07:23:24 <luserdroog> break out your busted too-clever postscript code! I wrote a debugger (requires and interpreter, like gs): https://github.com/luser-dr00g/debug.ps
07:32:30 <luserdroog> I somehow thought Nazi Temple of Doom would be more exciting...
07:33:54 <luserdroog> And how is it I've never heard of Battle Beyond the Stars? Robert Vaughn AND Hannibal from the A-Team??! smokemifygotem
07:38:46 <zzo38> Are the quantum operations supposed to be triggers or what else? That part I don't quite understand.
07:39:02 <zzo38> Although, I do (mostly) understand what the operations are.
07:51:06 <luserdroog> I was reading in here http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/rosetta/rose3.pdf that quantum operations are modifiers on the hilbert space.
07:51:34 <luserdroog> All I can say is that I know what each of those words means individually.
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11:08:12 <hexagon> I need to check if a character is equal to another character in BF
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11:08:40 <hexagon> I found this https://gist.github.com/wjessup/4688874 but I can't figure out how to copy cell 1 to cell 2 without zeroing cell 1
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11:11:38 <int-e> hexagon: you typically need some auxiliary cell. [->+>+<<] duplicates a value.
11:12:21 <hexagon> yeah, because that gist says to have 3 as value of all three cells
11:12:32 <int-e> (that one duplicates to the next two cells assuming they are initially zero)
11:19:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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11:41:06 <Sgeo> Is dealing with multiple values in Scheme supposed to be painful?
11:41:32 <Sgeo> I'm thinking of maybe transliterating Traversals into something like 'lens that gets and modifies multiple values', but I have no idea if that's sane
11:42:05 <Sgeo> In either the 'this is equivalent to traversals' or 'this will be nice to do in Racket' sense
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11:44:26 <Sgeo> Oh, the obvious way is call-with-values sending the values to list
11:46:35 <fizzie> There's http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-8/srfi-8.html for making multiple values rather less painful.
11:48:01 <Sgeo> I think that's just let-values in Racket
11:48:06 <Sgeo> (Which also has define-values)
11:48:26 <Sgeo> Which are all perfectly well and good except they assume you know how many values are incoming
11:48:29 <fizzie> I didn't think let-values supports the "rest" syntax thing.
11:48:38 <fizzie> Well, you don't need to know that for receive.
11:48:45 <fizzie> Since it's analogous to lambda argumets.
11:48:45 <Sgeo> Oh, you're right, oops
11:49:46 <Sgeo> Racket does ship with SRFI-8
11:50:02 <Sgeo> But I think I hate let-like forms
11:50:36 <Sgeo> #lang s-exp srfi/provider srfi/%3a8
11:50:48 <fizzie> (let ((l (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2 3)) list))) <body>) -> (receive l (values 1 2 3) <body>), pretty much.
11:51:12 <Sgeo> That does not make me more appreciative of let-like forms
11:51:31 <Sgeo> I think I'm inclined to worship internal defines
11:53:51 <Sgeo> https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/pkgs/srfi-pkgs/srfi-lite-lib/srfi/8/receive.rkt
11:54:05 <Sgeo> Doesn't use the reference implementatiion, it defers to let-values
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12:00:42 <fizzie> Huh. I don't remember syntax-rules, will (receive (var ...) [...]) match (receive (a b . c) [...])?
12:02:11 <Sgeo> It shouldn't, I ... think
12:02:32 <Sgeo> Actually, hmm, I can see why that's an interesting question
12:03:12 <Sgeo> Maybe I should avoid using body ... for bodies so much? Because ... hmm
12:03:24 <fizzie> The implementation is defective if it does, since (let-values (((a b . c) [...])) [...]) is not allowed.
12:03:58 <fizzie> Yeah, the <ellipsis> parts only match a proper list.
12:06:01 <Sgeo> So yeah, multiple value get returns to emulate traversals... in case the traversal 'gets' just one element, it doesn't need special processing, which fits more closely in a dynamically-typed language than requriing something for that case would
12:06:40 <Sgeo> Wait, I can't actually enumerate all of a real traversal's values, can I?
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12:21:46 <hexagon> why is this code not returning different values for input "a" and "ab"?
12:21:48 <hexagon> >,>,>[[-]>>[-]+<<]>[[-]>[-]+<]>>[-]+<[>-<]>.
12:21:55 <hexagon> idea taken from http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/558979/BrainFix-the-language-that-translates-to-fluent-Br equality code
12:22:05 <hexagon> I'm using http://mazonka.com/brainf/bfdebug.html, tried ideone too
12:23:32 <hexagon> maybe I need more code, I'm actually supposed to already set less and more first
12:28:31 <hexagon> I'll mess with that later, bbl
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13:43:54 <fizzie> hexagon: Assuming a zero-initialized tape, your >,>,>[[-]>>[-]+<<]>[[-]>[-]+<]>>[-]+<[>-<]>. reduces to >,>,>>>>+. no matter what the input, as all the [] blocks will be skipped.
13:44:19 <fizzie> (Perhaps that's what your "already set" comment meant.)
13:46:52 <fizzie> Anyway, something like (untested) ,>,[-<->]+<[>-<[-]]>[ code here if two characters were equal ] is the obvious destructive compare-two-characters snippet.
13:47:59 <fizzie> In words, that's "input two characters, subtract second from first; set a flag; if result of subtraction was nonzero (i.e., characters not equal) clear the flag; do something if flag still set".
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14:33:48 <boily> good yogurt morning!
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16:12:57 <oerjan> <zzo38> Are the quantum operations supposed to be triggers or what else? That part I don't quite understand. <-- you can think of them as reversible assignments on the qubits. e.g. a^= b or a+=b is a valid quantum operation if a and b are distinct qubits, as are the operations that rotate the quantum phase of a qubit.
16:16:17 <oerjan> and also an operation might change more than one qubit.
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17:01:54 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I can clearly see that an operation might change more than one qubit
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17:06:44 <zzo38> But I don't see where such assignments can go other than in triggers, and maybe you might sometimes want to put them elsewhere.
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17:08:18 <zzo38> Trigger on a (classical) clock edge.
17:08:53 <oerjan> right, that would seem a plausible way
17:09:54 <oerjan> however the physics are still up in the air. if the qubits were e.g. stored in _moving_ particles, then the assignments might happen when they arrive at some destination.
17:10:25 <zzo38> Consider the syntax for triggers on classical signals in HWPL: TRIGGER vec SET vec TO vec [WHEN bit]; and in Verilog, you use "always@(posedge clk)" instead. Similar thing could be done for quantum registers?
17:10:55 <oerjan> but if they were stored in some silicon-like material, then a system more similar to current VLSI might be more likely.
17:11:10 <zzo38> If the assignments are happening when they arrive, that can work too if you put in the relative (or absolute) delays for them
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17:13:21 <zzo38> How is a system more similar to current VLSI, exactly, in quantum computing?
17:14:08 <oerjan> well in that the quantum gates could be put as physical devices on chips
17:15:37 <oerjan> aaronson has been writing about this more or less toy system called boson sampling, which could be based on light and mirrors.
17:16:01 <oerjan> although that wouldn't seem to be full quantum computing
17:16:34 <oerjan> but it's still of some interest since it might still have some superclassical abilities
17:16:53 <oerjan> and might be simpler to construct than a full quantum computer
17:17:24 <oerjan> i understand that the intended error correction scheme for a quantum computer would make circuits thousands of times larger
17:17:34 <oerjan> *a full quantum computer
17:19:28 <zzo38> If quantum gates are put as physical devices on chips, do they need to be activated or something? Or would it be continuous as a signal passes a gate? (Even in such a case, they would still need to be activated somehow, I think). What if error correction is also explicitly programmed in using hardware programming languages? What about entanglement with external devices (which might be used in cryptography, for example)?
17:19:47 <zzo38> And then there needs to be the way to specify measurement, and several other things like that.
17:20:30 <zzo38> Consider maybe something like this: TRIGGER vec OPERATE matrix ON qureg [WHEN bit];
17:20:57 <oerjan> i'd imagine they'd _try_ to construct it as close to a "normal" chip as they can, simply for the advantage of being able to use mostly known technology.
17:21:11 <oerjan> (with mass production advantages etc.)
17:21:32 <zzo38> Yes, but I don't know how you would do that.
17:22:03 <oerjan> neither do i! they haven't even decided what's best to make the qubits of yet!
17:25:07 <zzo38> Nevertheless, quantum programming languages exist.
17:25:54 <oerjan> yes. i think they mainly make the assumption that you can combine "pure" gates for unitary matrices mathematically
17:26:53 <oerjan> and don't worry about how that would be implemented physically.
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18:06:02 <fizzie> What is a "skierized vehicle"?
18:06:45 <fizzie> Oh, apparently it just means "equipped to transport skis".
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18:57:44 <kmc> Florida Man Accidentally Shoots Himself With Stun Gun While Trying to Rob Radio Shack He Also Works At
19:01:59 <fizzie> "He said he needed money to pay for car insurance and his cell phone bill."
19:02:31 <hexagon> hi, I'm trying to make a BF program to print input in reverse, but it's only outputting an ASCII NUL: >,[>,][<.]
19:03:01 <hexagon> (yeah, I did realize that < will make it not print the last character, I'll fix that)
19:04:13 <elliott> after a ], the current cell is 0
19:04:18 <elliott> therefore the following loop is always skipped
19:04:47 <zzo38> Yes, that is true, ][ is useless
19:04:56 <zzo38> (Except possibly to make up a comment)
19:13:13 <nortti> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/feb/12/ancient-viking-code-deciphered-runologist-jotunvillur
19:14:34 <Taneb> This has got to be one of the most Viking cities anywhere
19:14:37 <Slereah__> Runologist sounds like a fake word
19:15:36 <Bike> "writing his doctorate on cryptography in runic inscriptions from the Viking Age and the Scandinavian Middle Ages" wow
19:16:15 <Slereah__> that guy is so fucked on the job market
19:17:11 <nortti> maybe he is going to stay on academia?
19:18:21 <Bike> well, he could probably get a pretty good book deal out of this
19:18:30 <Bike> tried to get a book deal?
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19:19:24 <Slereah__> I am trying to write a physics book
19:19:54 <Bike> you should have tried something more popular, like vikings, or SMS.
19:22:01 <kmc> what kind of physics
19:22:45 <Slereah__> I have plenty of physics book ideas
19:22:53 <Slereah__> One of them is called "What the fuck is spin"
19:23:03 <Slereah__> That is a book I would have liked to have
19:23:13 <Slereah__> Most books do not explain it well at all
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20:17:31 <zzo38> I figured out, not only BULBASAUR [Lv15] wins against MEWTWO [Lv53], but WEEDLE [Lv15] does too. As far as I can tell, any other card isn't guaranteed to win.
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20:33:14 <b_jonas> Slereah__: writing popular physics books? good
20:36:46 <HackEgo> cteditierdneywaterwcoin trackecoin anyplecoin latliscoin punivatumcoin bytecoin muzcoin xigxcoin geslecoin mismcoin novischesnacecoin smncoin threakcoin exeranccoin gcocoin nusaitzcoin galentincoin dzintycoin sationcoin preficoin
20:37:21 <kmc> cnidariacoin
20:39:25 <kmc> gelatocoin
20:39:53 <kmc> Slereah__: what the fuck is spin, anyway?
20:40:43 <Slereah__> kmc : Buy my book and you will knooow
20:41:01 <Slereah__> Spin is neither a relativistic concept nor a quantum one at its core
20:41:51 <Slereah__> It's one of the two conserved current associated with rotation
20:41:59 <Slereah__> The other being the angular momentum
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20:55:17 <kmc> how do i know how much spin something has
20:55:22 <kmc> elementary particles have a fixed amount right?
20:56:29 <myname> does anybody here knows any way of interpreting haskell on android?
20:57:15 <Slereah__> The spin is linked with what kind of field you have
20:57:27 <Slereah__> Like if it's a scalar field or a vector field or something else
20:58:57 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1y1g7l/i_have_a_bitcoinfession_and_a_plea_dont_gamble/cfgjhos welp
21:01:19 <nooodl> i have a dogecoinfession
21:05:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: coin: not found
21:05:36 <HackEgo> poincoin scomesocoin regiccoin direcoin evercoin anycoin hamcoin jugcoin zetanticoin eflcoin p1eqcoin incoirscrancoin singbramcoin stanchiesends.jscoin hungercoin shelpcoin gativecoin bamcoin beicoin golcoin
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21:45:09 <b_jonas> ah! everycoin and anycoin, those complement each other
21:45:30 <myname> hungercoin sounds funny
21:45:39 <b_jonas> yeah, hungercoin is probably some charity thing
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21:46:59 <HackEgo> jugarcoin limismetalcoin encecoin sudstrudecoin comcoin strcoin cpticoin fryincoin sqaalcoin finiscrispcoin codpignycoin stepmancoin sigcoin homerlicoin villcoin bffordcoin wakcoin poordcoin bowshogicoin graydorcoin
21:47:20 <myname> how does this even produce that names?
21:47:37 <kmc> `cat bin/coins
21:47:38 <HackEgo> words --eng-1M --esolangs ${1-20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
21:51:40 <kmc> increasingly annoyed at the people who show up in ##crypto to plug altcoins and associated scams
21:52:24 <kmc> Slereah__: ok I think I understand what a scalar vs. vector field is, but how does it relate to spin?
21:56:47 <kmc> Slereah__: i'm talking with douglass_ about spin and she agrees that "What The Fuck Is Spin?" would be a good book
21:57:22 <olsner> `coins --german-medical 5
21:57:24 <HackEgo> okincoin jugcoin limpeffektivemmundcoin mancoin brascoin
21:57:56 <HackEgo> longcoin ulkemastelectacoin paiseporuvcoin suvrejutetecoin excelatlacoin oovemcoin sharjcoin worbcoin kostepcoin raincoin
22:04:39 <Slereah__> <kmc> Slereah__: ok I think I understand what a scalar vs. vector field is, but how does it relate to spin? < If you use Noether's theorem
22:04:48 <Slereah__> which relates symmetries with conserved quantities
22:05:02 <Slereah__> You will find out that there's always two terms
22:05:22 <Slereah__> (Or just spin, in quantum mechanics)
22:05:54 <Slereah__> That quantity depends on the representation of the field$
22:06:50 <Slereah__> Because the rotation group acts differently depending on what kind of field you have
22:07:01 <Bike> is it open season for physics questions
22:07:33 <Slereah__> And you can find that phenomenon even in classical physics
22:07:53 <Slereah__> For instance, the total angular momentum of light will depend on its polarization
22:08:02 <Slereah__> Which is equivalent to the state of the spin in QM
22:08:46 <Bike> kmc: did you see darkcoin, which uses eleven hash algorithms for security
22:09:12 <Bike> kmc: #opencl has a shitload of mining people which is especially silly given it's not economical outside of asics, depressing :/
22:09:35 <kmc> Bike: bitcoin mining isn't, but maybe they're mining scrypt coins or others?
22:09:50 <kmc> also did you see http://www.h11e.com/
22:10:07 <kmc> Slereah__: ok
22:10:16 <Bike> i gotta get writing my science code so i can feel opencl ain't pointless
22:10:34 <Bike> "good reason for development"
22:11:16 <kmc> imo write a WebGL litecoin miner and out-do http://tidbit.co.in/ (hopefully without the "getting subpoenaed" part)
22:11:36 <Bike> Slereah__: how do dihydrogen cations involve lambert w
22:13:21 <Bike> it's quantum chemistry! schrodinger equation and shit!
22:14:44 <Bike> "The first successful quantum mechanical treatment of H2+ was published by the Danish physicist Øyvind Burrau in 1927,"
22:15:57 <Slereah__> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2272#comic
22:16:20 <Bike> only one electron though.
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22:34:00 <FreeFull> Bike: H2+? Is that just a proton?
22:34:11 <Bike> two protons and an electron.
22:35:10 <FreeFull> So would a proton be H+2 or H++?
22:36:15 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUW00Y5x1tM&feature=kp
22:36:21 <Bike> i don't think that's an ion, so it'd just be 4He
22:36:40 <FreeFull> Don't tell me you've never heard of alpha radiation =P
22:36:56 <Bike> god this looks shitty without superscripting
22:37:49 <FreeFull> That's why I was confused about H2+
22:38:03 <Bike> ^foo bar _baz ^bak means a molecule with total charge bak, made of baz bar-foo atoms
22:38:22 <FreeFull> Since it's not clear the 2 is meant to be paired with the H and not the +, although it doesn't make sense to have 2+ charge unless there is a positron or something
22:38:53 <Bike> if you're dealing with positrons you're not doing normal chemistry, which is probably for the best
22:39:33 <FreeFull> Unless you're dealing with the chemistry of beta plus decay
22:39:42 <FreeFull> Although the positron itself won't be significant
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22:53:53 <oerjan> <elliott> (spoiler: >,[>,]<[.<]) <-- OKAY
22:54:15 <elliott> I invented it independently!
22:54:20 <elliott> can it be done any shorter?
22:54:27 <elliott> you could do ,[>,]<[.<] if not for the left underflow
22:54:29 <oerjan> (i guess i believe you)
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23:14:47 <oerjan> <myname> does anybody here knows any way of interpreting haskell on android? <-- my impression from recent release notes is that ghc is gradually getting more support for ARM but android isn't yet working...
23:15:43 <oerjan> and reddit posts, probably
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00:03:56 <Sgeo> Even if I can represent most interesing things with getter+modifier, it may actually be _easier_ for end-users to define a van Laarhoven style lens
00:05:53 <nooodl> oerjan: elliott: i brute-force checked all brainfuck programs of length <= 10, and only two of them reverse input: ,[<,]>[.>] and ,[>,]<[.<]
00:06:06 <Bike> what a sensible thing to do
00:06:39 <elliott> that first one is invalid if you disallow left tape underflow
00:06:50 <elliott> oh, both of them are wrong in that case
00:08:28 <nooodl> ignoring + and - you get only about 73 million programs, which isn't really a lot! and many of those are invalid (i.e. mismatched [])
00:09:35 <nooodl> here's my completely awful thing http://sprunge.us/jSJA
00:11:21 <elliott> nooodl: + and - could be used
00:11:36 <nooodl> this is kinda fun. here's a bunch of echo programs http://sprunge.us/bjVe
00:12:18 <elliott> does it check things in parallel?
00:12:39 <nooodl> nope it's really inefficient
00:13:00 <elliott> I guess + and - would blow it up too much
00:14:57 <FireFly> nooodl: you could also filter out programs containing NOPs (><, <>, -+, +-)
00:15:10 <FireFly> since an equivalent shorter program would already have been tried
00:15:32 <elliott> the solution is obvious, just run esotope on every input program to remove duplicates
00:16:41 <elliott> actually that could even be viable
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00:27:25 <nooodl> here's all possible outputs for 5-character brainfuck programs http://sprunge.us/eXIL
00:28:20 <nooodl> wait this can't possibly handle things like ,[.,] or ,[.-]
00:34:18 <FreeFull> nooodl: Maybe that's all the possible finite outputs
00:34:47 <FreeFull> Although ,[.-] would be finite
00:39:42 <pikhq_> Except on EOF = -1 bignum implementations. :D
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00:54:56 * oerjan might point out that mangling people's nicks probably doesn't nickping them, hth hth
00:55:33 <HackEgo> flabillcoin sbtealpediumcoin andcoin cumcoin benerancecoin irculuscoin easedcoin xbtizedcoin skacoin alcacoin migolcoin unfustiglcoin zwissercoin rumcoin noobcoin philosoecoin thorecoin btfcoin inverundcoin 92.12coin
00:55:41 <oerjan> elliott: i sense a bug hth
00:56:13 <Sgeo> There are unsafeCoerces in lens apparently :/
00:56:29 <kmc> i think shachaf knows all about that
00:56:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: there are plans to change those to the new (safe) coerce eventually
00:57:02 <kmc> there is so much unsafe coercing in Servo :/
00:57:08 <kmc> oerjan: what's the safe coerce
00:57:29 <oerjan> kmc: the one that has typeclass restriction to check that the types actually can be coerced
00:57:49 <kmc> what are examples of pairs of types that "actually can be coerced"
00:58:23 <Sgeo> I want to quote what someone said to me in #haskell-lens, but it's not publically logged as far as I can tell
00:58:24 <oerjan> any newtype wrapping (with constructor visible), things that only differ in phantom types
00:58:45 <quintopia> helloerjan. i don't want to ping people. i want to test if they are paying attention.
00:58:55 <oerjan> and "parametric" type constructors applied to those
00:59:00 <quintopia> pinging people who are busy would be bothersome
00:59:19 <oerjan> (using the new role system)
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01:00:50 <quintopia> oerjan: any progress on TCness of RePairate-2? you know you want to know for sure.
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01:02:16 <oerjan> quintopia: oh, i sort of put that away after you started mumbling about _exactly_ 2
01:02:27 <oerjan> because i have no idea how to do _that_
01:03:09 <oerjan> but yes, i have a design sketch that i think should work for <= 2
01:04:32 <quintopia> oerjan: well i want to see that. obviously, the exactly 2 thing would be super-cool, but I recognize it is a very difficult problem. m in {0,2} would be good enough for now.
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01:08:00 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't think that's necessary
01:08:13 <shachaf> mostly arguing against the new coerce
01:08:27 <shachaf> but only in places like irc that spj doesn't see, so it's not relevant one way or the other
01:08:40 <shachaf> well, ok, i have nothing against this safe coerce thing, it just isn't really relevant to lens
01:08:54 <shachaf> what is relevant to lens is a 5-line patch spj implemented over a year ago
01:09:13 <shachaf> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7542
01:10:15 <shachaf> The issue is that (foo . NewtypeConstructor) turns into (foo . id) post-denewtypification, and (foo . id) is (\x -> foo x), which isn't the same as foo
01:10:44 <Bike> why isn't it again
01:10:53 <shachaf> But that patch makes it so that strict composition is enough, because foo `seq` (\x -> foo x) should be equal to foo.
01:10:59 <shachaf> Bike: seq can distinguish them.
01:11:07 <shachaf> > (undefined :: Int -> Int) `seq` ()
01:11:11 <Bike> oh foo can be bottom you mean
01:11:12 <shachaf> > ((\x -> undefined x) :: Int -> Int) `seq` ()
01:11:17 <Bike> yeah makes sense
01:12:07 <shachaf> So to show what the Core would look like if GHC did it correctly, I introduced composition operators that aren't composition at all but are actually unsafeCoerce.
01:12:20 <shachaf> And edwardk said "that's a good idea, let's put it in".
01:12:53 <shachaf> But anyway the point is that the whole thing can be fixed with the strict composition thing in GHC HEAD.
01:13:35 <shachaf> However, partly as a result of this bug I filed, SPJ wrote https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/NewtypeWrappers
01:13:41 <shachaf> "See #7542 for a real life example."
01:14:12 <shachaf> This newtype wrappers mechanism, and the various other things proposed to solve this issue, are far more complicated than the thing that actually fixes it.
01:14:50 <shachaf> whoa, there was discussion on that ticket 6 days ago
01:15:47 <shachaf> Maybe it's not quite that simple.
01:16:49 <shachaf> But I'm still wholeheartedly on the side of fixing this via a compiler optimization of strict composition rather than all this complicated coercion business.
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02:07:38 <HackEgo> [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+002E FULL STOP]
02:08:43 <oerjan> weird why does the wiki mark it as changed.
02:50:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: author: not found
02:55:41 <Sgeo> Does the name cartesian-compose make sense for a function that composes functions, but, when one function in the chain returns multiple values, it maps the rest of the composition onto it, rather, than, say, providing the results as multiple arguments?
02:56:02 <Sgeo> Still not sure if I can just use this cartesian-compose, or if I need to change what a getter can do
02:57:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: say: not found
02:59:44 <HackEgo> Initializing cgroup subsys cpuset \ Initializing cgroup subsys cpu \ Initializing cgroup subsys cpuacct \ Linux version 3.13.0-umlbox (hackbot@codu) (gcc version 4.7.2 (Debian 4.7.2-5) ) #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 \ On node 0 totalpages: 73344 \ free_area_init_node: node 0, pgdat 60318390, node_mem_map 62c3a000 \ Normal zone: 1003 pages used
03:00:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: halt: not found
03:00:28 <HackEgo> wget: missing URL \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
03:01:08 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
03:01:21 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
03:01:36 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:01:58 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ tmp \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:02:06 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
03:02:16 <HackEgo> alternatives \ java-6-openjdk
03:02:41 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
03:02:47 <blotter> oh well, when all else fails...
03:02:48 <HackEgo> du: invalid option -- ' ' \ du: invalid option -- '.' \ du: invalid option -- '/' \ du: invalid option -- ':' \ du: invalid option -- '-' \ Try `du --help' for more information.
03:02:53 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
03:03:04 <HackEgo> Usage: rm [OPTION]... FILE... \ Remove (unlink) the FILE(s). \ \ -f, --force ignore nonexistent files, never prompt \ -i prompt before every removal \ -I prompt once before removing more than three files, or \ when removing recursively. Less intrusive than -i, \
03:03:20 <HackEgo> TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ SHLVL=0 \ HOME=/tmp
03:03:35 <HackEgo> warning: bad ps syntax, perhaps a bogus '-'? \ See http://gitorious.org/procps/procps/blobs/master/Documentation/FAQ \ USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.0 0.1 1012 272 ? S 03:03 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 03:03 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0
03:03:52 <Bike> did you expect a sensible display
03:04:17 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "print 1" \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
03:04:53 <HackEgo> find: `. -type f': No such file or directory
03:06:03 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 286 ? 00:00:00 init \ 288 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 290 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 291 ? 00:00:00 cat
03:06:31 <blotter> Gregor, you should add </dev/null to your execs
03:07:05 <blotter> the reason HackEgo wasnt responding for a while is b/c tee was blocking on stdin
03:07:17 <blotter> if the exec cmd is followed by </dev/null
03:07:29 <blotter> it'll nullify the stdin, preventing anything from blocking on it
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03:08:46 <HackEgo> agetty \ badblocks \ blkid \ blockdev \ cfdisk \ ctrlaltdel \ debugfs \ depmod \ dhclient \ dhclient-script \ dmsetup \ dumpe2fs \ e2fsck \ e2image \ e2label \ e2undo \ fdisk \ findfs \ fsck \ fsck.cramfs \ fsck.ext2 \ fsck.ext3 \ fsck.ext4 \ fsck.ext4dev \ fsck.minix \ fsck.nfs \ fsfreeze \ fstab-decode \ fstrim \ getty \ halt \ hwclock \ ifconfig
03:09:05 <HackEgo> agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \
03:09:19 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/dsp: Permission denied
03:09:24 <Bike> oh shit were being hackd
03:09:49 <Bike> wait, why the hell does it have midi and dsp out
03:10:04 <Bike> Gregor have you been djing behind our backs
03:11:04 <oerjan> hm that does seem to block stuff
03:11:17 <Bike> an ejoyable dos
03:11:52 <oerjan> ` doesn't actually run the command with shell expansion and stuff, you need to use `run
03:12:18 <oerjan> also someone defined `` as an abbreviation of that
03:13:36 <oerjan> Bike: Gregor sometimes composes music
03:13:44 <blotter> `run cat /dev/null | tr '\0' '#'
03:14:18 <blotter> `run cat /dev/zero | tr '\0' '#'
03:14:19 <HackEgo> ###########################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################
03:15:27 <blotter> `run cat /dev/zero | tr '\0' a | sed 's/aa/ab/' | tr b '\n'
03:15:40 <blotter> `run cat /dev/zero | tr '\0' a | sed 's/aa/ab/g' | tr b '\n'
03:16:00 <blotter> `run cat /dev/zero | tr '\0' a | sed 's/aa/ab/g' | tr b 'c'
03:16:17 <blotter> stop misbehaving HackEgo :-(
03:16:38 <blotter> `run cat /dev/zero | tr '\0' '\n'
03:16:54 <oerjan> blotter: HackEgo strips trailing newlines
03:18:25 <oerjan> and also has some buffering problems with long lines
03:19:48 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure why you're getting no input on all of those
03:20:17 <oerjan> oh maybe it's sed which cannot handle it
03:20:34 <oerjan> it never gets to the end of the line to print out the result
03:20:42 <Bike> ``cat /dev/zero | tr '\0' a | sed 's/aa/ab/'
03:20:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
03:20:48 <Bike> `` cat /dev/zero | tr '\0' a | sed 's/aa/ab/'
03:25:15 <blotter> `ls /hackenv/src/buttsnack
03:25:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /hackenv/src/buttsnack: No such file or directory
03:25:26 <blotter> `ls /hackenv/bin/buttsnack
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03:35:19 * oerjan is guessing Tasnout met a dane
03:36:19 <copumpkin> kmc: your safe-globals package seems a bit dead on a modern GHC
03:36:59 <oerjan> hm wait that's wrong, it's spelled næb
03:37:24 <HackEgo> repocoin oxycoin .yachcoin sartcoin pooncoin sciacoin shooncoin tre-calcoin palcoin strecoin halietzellcoin hydrainecoin trideadfteloppensigcoin kimlcoin counterncoin strelcoin bolitershacoin procoin niggerecoin lnussintecoin
03:37:45 <zzo38> Can C/shellscripts polyglot be made?
03:38:27 <zzo38> Perhaps you can if the first line is #define
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03:41:42 <Sgeo> haskell-lens isn't answering my lens question :(
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03:52:08 <oerjan> Sgeo: have you managed to confuse them or is there nobody awake
03:52:27 <Sgeo> I'm hoping it's just that no-one's awake
03:52:44 <Sgeo> Either that or I didn't explain my question well, I don't think it's an inherently confusing question
03:52:55 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Suppose I have a.both.b
03:52:55 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Will either a or b have the ability to look at or manipulate both values, or only each value one at a time?
03:53:32 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> (a, a) -> f (b, b)
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03:54:46 <zzo38> OK, I managed to write a C/shellscripts polyglot.
03:55:48 <Taneb> :t (a :: Lens' Int (Bool, Bool) . both . (b :: Lens' Bool Char)
03:55:50 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended -XRankNTypes or similar flag
03:55:50 <lambdabot> to enable explicit-forall syntax: forall <tvs>. <type>
03:56:14 <Taneb> :t (a :: ALens' Int (Bool, Bool) . both . (b :: ALens' Bool Char)
03:56:15 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended -XRankNTypes or similar flag
03:56:15 <lambdabot> to enable explicit-forall syntax: forall <tvs>. <type>
03:56:24 <Sgeo> Missing parens
03:56:31 <Sgeo> :t (a :: Lens' Int (Bool, Bool)) . both . (b :: Lens' Bool Char)
03:56:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `((Bool, Bool) -> f (Bool, Bool))
03:56:33 <Bike> :t (a :: ALens' Int (Bool, Bool)) . both . (b :: ALens' Bool Char)
03:56:35 <lambdabot> -> Control.Lens.Internal.Context.Pretext
03:56:57 <Sgeo> I blame lambdabot
03:57:10 <Sgeo> :t (afucklambdabot :: Lens' Int (Bool, Bool)) . both . (bfucklambdabot :: Lens' Bool Char)
03:57:30 <Sgeo> :t (undefined :: Lens' Int (Bool, Bool)) . both . (undefined :: Lens' Bool Char)
03:57:31 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (Char -> f Char) -> Int -> f Int
03:57:52 <zzo38> quintopia: No, it isn't. It doesn't even do the same thing in C as shellscripts.
03:57:57 <Sgeo> I have no idea how to translate that into a lambda
03:58:15 <Sgeo> and by "lambda", I mean "answer to my question"
03:58:28 <Sgeo> Concepts right next to each other, or something
03:58:36 <Taneb> b can only look at one value at a time
03:58:41 <Taneb> As far as b knows, there is only one value
03:58:43 <quintopia> zzo38: make one that's a QUINE IN BOTH
03:58:50 <Taneb> a deals with two values.
03:59:02 <zzo38> quintopia: Maybe another time; this time I don't have such an intention.
03:59:03 <Sgeo> Taneb: but not because of both, I'm guessing, but because it actually sees the pair?
03:59:11 <oerjan> i bet if it's possible to make a quine in both, then someone already has.
03:59:21 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, probably.
03:59:43 <zzo38> The first line is #define echo echo1( and then #define echo1(x)
04:00:13 <oerjan> Taneb: btw the trick to get types that way is to use implicit variables
04:00:19 <zzo38> And then the actual shell scripts (terminated by exit), and thenn it undefines those two macros.
04:00:52 <oerjan> :t (?a :: Lens' Int (Bool, Bool)) . both . (?b :: Lens' Bool Char)
04:00:53 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (?a::((Bool, Bool) -> f1 (Bool, Bool))
04:00:53 <lambdabot> arising from a use of implicit parameter `?a'
04:01:01 <zzo38> What it does is echo >/dev/null and then runs gcc.
04:01:07 <oerjan> well, it should have been.
04:01:31 <Sgeo> Great, so... all I need to do to be confident in my representation being satisfactory (once I start using cartesian-compose) is ... understand prisms
04:01:43 <oerjan> hm maybe those have trouble with rank-N
04:01:45 <Taneb> oerjan, I thought I used ImplicitParams. I blame the fact that it's 4 am
04:01:59 <Sgeo> Hmm, worse comes to worst, I could have prism be a subtype of lens, I think
04:02:42 <Sgeo> Since my representation will support traversals just fine, it's just prisms may (or may not) be more than a traversal... just a traversal reversible into a getter... somehiw
04:03:07 <Sgeo> Also need to understand folds, but I think those are just getters?
04:04:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: prisms and lenses are not contained in each other either way
04:04:36 <Sgeo> What I'm calling a 'lens' is more fiexible than a lens
04:04:43 <zzo38> I don't know if anyone else has written C/shellscripts polyglots at all; do you know of any such things?
04:05:42 <elliott> please don't call it a lens thne
04:06:25 <Sgeo> :/ what should I call it
04:06:45 <Bike> a generalized lens
04:06:51 <Bike> i love general
04:07:01 <kmc> zzo38: I wrote a C / shell / python / haskell / brainfuck / DOS .COM file polyglot
04:07:28 <quintopia> zzo38: such a program won the 1986 IOCCC
04:07:30 <quintopia> http://www.spinellis.gr/blog/20100112/
04:07:39 <kmc> C/shell is pretty easy because of #if 0 and because shell doesn't do static syntax checking
04:07:56 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, #if 0 or whatever
04:08:09 <kmc> quintopia: prints "Hello, $lang!" for each lang
04:09:03 <quintopia> kmc: make the brainfuck part a quine
04:09:07 <kmc> it starts with a blank line
04:09:09 <kmc> that's kind of annoying
04:09:12 <oerjan> it seems the polymath project to reduce the size of the known minimal gap between primes has got down to 270
04:10:32 <oerjan> well it's a little confusing
04:10:55 <oerjan> it's "for all N there exist primes >= N closer than this gap"
04:12:01 <oerjan> closer or equally close
04:12:51 <zzo38> I have seen another one to check what programming language it is; but it was different, and also included both Plain TeX and LaTeX.
04:13:18 <oerjan> http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Bounded_gaps_between_primes
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04:26:46 <Sgeo> My "lenses" might not match up with Haskell lenses, but they're still a pair of getter+modifier
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04:41:24 <Sgeo> Am I a bad person for using λ in my source files?
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04:45:23 <Taneb> Doesn't seem like sleep is happening
04:48:17 <Sgeo> I strongly recommend ensuring that it happens at some point, otherwise it could happen forever
04:48:36 <Sgeo> hmm, that doesn't... quite mean what I intended it to
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05:09:26 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> (a, a) -> f (b, b)
05:09:30 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `either' (imported from Data.Either)
05:09:44 <lambdabot> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> Either a b -> c
05:10:50 <blotter> this channel is a botfest ^_^
05:11:21 <HackEgo> smuragrapcoin qualcoin optincoin chintcoin pointcoin gregxcoin cvocoin immicoin bluelcoin redcoin minisetercoin padabccoin alnecoin hq9+coin boationcoin preputecoin cobcoin zeicoin miindeltorcoin stucoin
05:12:36 <Jafet> Qualcoin, mined by chinese factory workers
05:13:21 <oerjan> i think that may be the thing that corresponds most to "neither" in the sense that matches with "both"
05:13:56 <shachaf> Sure. Or "none" in the sense that matches with "each".
05:14:47 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
05:14:47 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
05:14:47 <myndzi> >\ c.c |\ >\| | |\ c.c /'\ | >\| |\ c.c /|
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05:15:02 <oerjan> blotter: botfest you said?
05:15:09 <HackEgo> unbaccoin cogscoin yeartraccoin xnigmentacoin turdocicoin uustencoin hungcoin cronkeymacoin iluriencoin alcodaycoin zombcoin fulcoin noilogcoin theolanguinncoin opmecoin rydcoin vingintercoin matcoin ruberiggcoin cancoin
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05:17:36 <Sgeo> World of Padman seems to have generally 0 players online
05:20:34 <oerjan> :t united -- here's the other one i was trying to find
05:20:36 <lambdabot> Functor f => (() -> f ()) -> a -> f a
05:22:33 <shachaf> the following three exist: Lens' s (); Lens' Void a; Prism' s Void
05:24:07 <Sgeo> How important are the prism-specific features of prisms?
05:24:31 <shachaf> how important are the ocean-specific features of oceans?
05:25:36 <shachaf> oerjan: hm, that seems more reasonable to me now than it did back then
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06:35:08 <zzo38> SQLite now added recursive queries now. There is an example SQL program that solves sudoku puzzle, given.
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06:38:46 <zzo38> The WITH clause look like a really good feature.
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07:10:42 <kmc> zzo38: show me?
07:14:58 <kmc> how was I not already following ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG21 on twitter???
07:15:21 <zzo38> kmc: http://www.sqlite.org/lang_with.html
07:16:01 <Bike> that's uh... C++ standards?
07:16:25 <kmc> zzo38: I like the Mandelbrot set renderer as well :D
07:29:46 <kmc> zzo38: inductive data types in Inform? https://twitter.com/chrisamaphone/status/435247774712344577
07:33:52 <zzo38> He needs to specify whether he means Inform6 or Inform7, which are two different programming languages. I don't know much of either.
07:36:19 <Sgeo> I think a problem with WebGL is that everyone ends up making their own control scheme, there's no consistency
07:36:36 <Sgeo> Which may be good for some games, but generic places to explore, some consistency might be useful
07:37:10 <kmc> zzo38: she
07:37:24 <kmc> and a followup tweet says i7
07:37:35 <kmc> zzo38: oh, I thought you knew a lot about inform
07:41:49 <kmc> so do the recursive WITH clauses make SQLite into a logic programming language
07:41:53 <kmc> or some other kind of thing
07:50:58 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know, but it allows loops and recursion without triggers, so it can be used in a query by itself.
07:51:11 <zzo38> It looks to be an extremely useful feature.
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08:11:15 <zzo38> But SQL does have unusual features compared to other programming languages; many of which can be useful in the applicable circumstances. Other features I think would be useful to have are overridable views, trigger indices, and ordered triggers.
08:14:29 <zzo38> And the ability to rename views would also be useful.
08:39:56 <zzo38> I don't know much about logic programming language; if you know then hopefully you would know whether WITH clauses can make SQL into logic programming language.
08:58:20 <Sgeo> So, I won't be changing my representation to just modifiers, I think. Although I will try to provide a function to turn a modifier into a getter+modifier pair, although it's only meant to be used on non-lazy structures
08:58:35 <Sgeo> Racket does have the occasional lazy structure, so I hope this is the right decision
09:21:19 <Taneb> Sgeo, did you know that lens is turing complete
09:24:55 <Taneb> Well, the easiest way I've seen is by simulation of B,C,K,W with fix to get round Hindley-Milner
09:24:55 <Sgeo> It suddenly occurs to me that I have no idea if this is a good idea :/
09:25:20 <Sgeo> Well, when I run my test, it will probably break horribly if this is a bad idea
09:25:30 <Bike> "good" is a false concept. There is no justice in this world, Sgeo.
09:25:36 <Taneb> @type over mapped `asTypeOf` \a b c -> a (b c)
09:25:38 <lambdabot> Functor ((->) t) => (a -> b) -> (t -> a) -> t -> b
09:25:56 <Taneb> @type view flipped `asTypeOf` \a b c -> a c b
09:26:18 <Taneb> @type view curried (view _1) `asTypeOf` \a b -> a
09:26:45 <Sgeo> Oh hey, looks like it did break horribly
09:26:52 <Taneb> @type perform (over mapped acts acts) `asTypeOf` \a b -> a b b
09:26:53 <lambdabot> Monad ((->) t) => (t -> t -> b) -> t -> b
09:27:02 <Taneb> And the grand finale:
09:27:27 <Taneb> @type over mapped (view flipped (foldrOf folded (over mapped) (view simple)) ((&) ^?! ignored)) (toListOf repeated)
09:28:11 <Bike> it's so simple.
09:29:36 <Taneb> :t (.) join . (.) . flip
09:29:37 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
09:30:19 <Taneb> :t (.) join . flip . (.) (.)
09:30:19 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
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09:48:09 <zzo38> What is the algorithm to figure out how to create a "frequent words" table so that text containing any sequence of characters which are included in the table can be compressed? It is slightly complicated, because the cost of the text may occasionally differ slightly depending on which table it is in.
09:59:20 <Sgeo> I either need to rework getters to use lists instead of multiple-valued return, or rework composition of modifiers to be compatible with multiple-valued returns
10:00:59 <Sgeo> I think the former may make more sense
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11:15:16 <FreeFull> @djinn (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
11:17:30 <FreeFull> I bet there is a simpler way to do ap with lens
11:29:09 <Jafet> > over mapped (view flipped (foldrOf folded (over mapped) (view simple)) ((&) ^?! ignored)) (toListOf repeated) id
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11:49:02 <Sgeo> I am running into problems that are, fundamentally, caused by being in a dynamic language
11:49:31 <Sgeo> (lens-mod (hash 'a 5) (compose-lens (at 'a) (at 'b)) (const 6))
11:50:00 <Sgeo> What is that supposed to do, exactly? The item at 'a in the original object isn't a dict that (at 'b) would know how to modify
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12:06:05 <Sgeo> The only solution that comes readily to mind is having a separate mode for setters
12:06:15 <Sgeo> So, getter+modifier+setter tuple
12:06:20 <Sgeo> But that seems horrific
12:07:11 <Sgeo> Unless... I can have a lens that would 'fail', instead somehow ask upstream what to do
12:07:30 <Sgeo> Like, sending some kind of signal, that const would, by its very nature, ignore, but other things wouldn't
12:08:52 <Sgeo> (values) is a thing that unless you ignore it, you choke on it
12:09:03 <Sgeo> (Or otherwise specifically look for it)
12:23:05 <Sgeo> lens.rkt is now safely on GitHub.
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13:30:21 <FreeFull> Sgeo: I wonder if Typed Racket would work better
13:32:06 <Sgeo> Or I just modify all modifiers to receive a signal saying 'no value given'
13:32:52 <Sgeo> Some modifiers might choke on that (car-l, cdr-l), some might not
13:35:17 <Sgeo> Ultimately, const would not care that there's no value given, because it provides a value.
13:35:27 <Sgeo> But a different user-supplied modifier would fail with an arity error
13:37:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, just now decided to check for lenses in other dynamically-typed languages
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16:14:40 <shikhin> password2: Nah, it's a play on my primary nick (my real name), shikhin.
16:14:49 <shikhin> password2: So, shikhout and shikherr are my secondary nicks.
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17:04:10 <FreeFull> Drewno means wood in my language
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18:07:32 <HackEgo> doncoin gebsoncoin polycoin tempncoin paranhehcoin isccoin subamcoin emocoin mdjcoin @!coin versigcoin msizecoin haccoin roadlycoin nolocoin gasphalcshicoin sothesecoin calcoin bigehotorcoin retuacoin
18:09:51 <kmc> hot or coin
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18:10:23 <Slereah> Fun fact : coin means "quack" in french
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19:52:48 <Bike> which of these fuckin bots has quotes again
19:52:51 <HackEgo> 46) <apollo> Maternal instincts? <apollo> Don't you just leave the thing in a box until it starts crying, and then shake it until it stops? \ 518) <itidus20> according to physics and maths can we theoretically have a box with infinite cookies inside? \ 637) <Ngevd> BOXBOT IS TERRIBLE <Ngevd> NOBODY LIKES BOXBOT <Ngevd> He's just a box with arms
19:53:08 <HackEgo> 174) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken? \ 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets \ 497) <Patashu> But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is \ 795) <kmc> the other day I b
19:54:39 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 74) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a gira
19:55:19 <olsner> I wonder which bot has the most quotes, fungot perhaps?
19:55:19 <fungot> olsner: there is winscheme48, too.)
19:57:45 <fizzie> `run tr ' ' '\n' < quotes | grep '^<.*>$' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | paste
19:57:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14276
19:57:57 <fizzie> Oh, no pasteing allowed.
19:58:01 <fizzie> `run tr ' ' '\n' < quotes | grep '^<.*>$' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
19:58:01 <HackEgo> 142 <elliott> \ 132 <Phantom_Hoover> \ 109 <kmc> \ 100 <zzo38> \ 96 <ais523> \ 95 <oklopol> \ 88 <fizzie> \ 78 <fungot> \ 68 <Bike> \ 63 <Taneb> \ 61 <monqy> \ 55 <Sgeo> \ 52 <olsner> \ 52 <oerjan> \ 49 <Gregor> \ 42 <shachaf> \ 32 <Vorpal> \ 26 <itidus20> \
19:58:11 <fizzie> Well, it's the first bot-like thing in the list, anyway.
19:59:56 <fizzie> I guess that kind of pasteing is fine.
20:00:13 <Bike> no pasting allowed?
20:00:30 <Bike> wait what the heck, i'm in more quotes than itidus?
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20:54:34 <kmc> I don't like that SQL is so strongly identified with its concrete syntax, and that SQL is still commonly used by gluing together strings in another programming languages
20:54:58 <kmc> the interface between an application and a database should be something richer than strings
20:55:23 <zzo38> I don't like that strongly gluing of SQL either, but I don't generally use it that way anyways.
20:56:12 <zzo38> And you can use things like ?1 ?2 rather than joining strings using other programs, if you do need to pass parameters to the SQL statements.
20:56:42 <zzo38> SQL can be used fine by itself, and if the program allows the user to enter SQL statements.
20:59:06 <zzo38> SQL is actually a complete programming language, although one which is unusual, it is still good for many things.
21:00:20 <zzo38> Do you disagree with any of this?
21:03:20 <kmc> not really
21:03:47 <kmc> parameters like ?1 are an improvement, but don't really address my core complaint, which isn't about SQL but about how the world works more generally
21:04:11 <kmc> perhaps I will try to explain later
21:05:20 <zzo38> Actually I think I agree your statement about "how the world works more generally", but that doesn't make SQL bad; it just means database interfaces are lacking.
21:06:01 <zzo38> I do generally work with SQL by writing all of the SQL statements, triggers, etc in one file, so the program is mainly written in SQL and any extensions required may be written in C.
21:06:26 <zzo38> The other way around seems more common, and perhaps your complaint addresses that.
21:36:15 <kmc> basically I am annoyed that the only truly universal data format is ASCII text
21:38:16 <kmc> and so when you design a new file format / language / protocol, you have to put a lot of thought into how to represent it as ASCII text
21:39:10 <kmc> and both designers and implementers tend to screw this up in ways that make life miserable
21:39:52 <kmc> in particular it causes a lot of security problems due to improper escaping
21:40:22 <kmc> and the fact that escaping needs to be aware of multiple layers at once
21:40:48 <zzo38> Actually a lot of things can be done with binary data, if you know the endianness and all of that stuff.
21:43:09 <kmc> e.g. perfectly well-formated JSON can still cause trouble when it's pasted after a HTML <script> tag and a string literal contains "</script>"
21:43:35 <kmc> whereas if you think mostly in terms of trees, you still need to serialize them at some point, but that can be a core low-level library and you only have to get it right there
21:50:14 <zzo38> It is possible to work-around the "</script>" problem though. But there are in fact binary formats meant to be usable similar to JSON but if you want binary rather than text format.
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22:51:00 * oerjan just realized you could do let s = it in ghci
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23:00:55 <HackEgo> knhcoin sticcoin catccoin flattocoin wiecoin flecoin cariacoin d1reratcoin drocoin brzrocoin recolouxcoin subicoin subulolchicoin nicidicoin commucoin comercoin sallingpowrtyrevolucoin twomacoin genomecoin cradicoin
23:01:23 <kmc> zzo38: sure, it is usually possible to work around design flaws in any kind of system
23:01:56 <kmc> but you can't count on every developer to know all the traps and workarounds and apply them perfectly 100% of the time
23:02:02 <kmc> and even if they did it would still be a large cost
23:03:23 * boily chokes on trying to say “brzrocoin”
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23:57:55 <kmc> Knights Christian United in Faith
23:58:01 <kmc> `relcome blotter__
23:58:02 <HackEgo> blotter__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:59:10 <HackEgo> dungcoin objectcoin podoccoin muguecoin iorslccoin pyraziecoin afelycoin ilecoin rfremblebraicoin pircoin blongcoin minarycodcoin soncoin laoticacoin blacroncalcoin commencoin dravitycoin genocoin elzellornicoin mithcoin
00:04:25 <FireFly> `run printf '\r\nQUIT :a\r\n' # would do better, but won't work anyway
00:05:00 <blotter__> obviously it wont be a raw irc message
00:05:14 <blotter__> otherwise plain echos wouldnt work
00:06:58 <oerjan> * boily chokes on trying to say “brzrocoin” <-- you're just not czech enough hth
00:07:52 <boily> I am Canadian. I am also sane. those are two qualities that prevent me of pronouncing exotic consonant clusters.
00:08:29 <oerjan> still with the delusions
00:09:36 <boily> the delusions, they are delicious.
00:10:01 <boily> (or is that the meal I'm currently eating? I can't make the distinction.)
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00:24:08 <oerjan> my current meal is so cheesy
00:24:30 <oerjan> also bready and liver patéy
00:27:01 <kmc> http://yle.fi/uutiset/poroille_tarkoitetun_heijastinsprayn_tehtavana_estaa_liikenneonnettomuuksia/7093117
00:32:00 <oerjan> <Taneb> Well, the easiest way I've seen is by simulation of B,C,K,W with fix to get round Hindley-Milner <-- come to think of it, i don't actually have a citation that that is enough. i'm suddenly worried by the fact you cannot make polymorphic functions this way.
00:33:25 <oerjan> i'm not sure that it's actually a problem, though.
00:34:08 <boily> pâté de foie is a good thing.
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00:34:40 <oerjan> and i think lens probably has enough stuff that you could make arithmetic directly as well, which would surely clinch it.
00:35:46 <zzo38> If you write "echo KCUF | rev", then the respose is supposed to be "FUCK" it isn't a misbehaviour. If you don't like it, give different input please!
00:36:00 <zzo38> boily: Being Canadian and sane prevent you from pronouncing some things? Are you sure?
00:36:39 <oerjan> :t view curried (view (sumOf both))
00:36:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `((a0, b0) -> Accessor a1 (a0, b0),
00:36:40 <lambdabot> (a0, b0) -> Accessor a1 (a0, b0))'
00:37:11 <oerjan> :t view curried (sumOf both)
00:37:26 <oerjan> :t view curried (productOf both)
00:37:37 <zzo38> I think it is allowed to be both sane and insane simultaneously.
00:38:14 <kmc> There is an area of the mind that could be called unsane, beyond sanity, and yet not insane. Think of a circle with a fine split in it. At one end there's insanity. You go around the circle to sanity, and on the other end of the circle, close to insanity, but not insanity, is unsanity.
00:38:24 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> I think it is allowed to be both sane and insane simultaneously.
00:38:26 <HackEgo> 1170) <zzo38> I think it is allowed to be both sane and insane simultaneously.
00:39:20 <lambdabot> `-' (imported from Prelude), `^' (imported from Prelude),
00:39:28 <Bike> When the object enters the timestream, time begins to correct itself. Let me use this example: Imagine four balls on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the ball nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line of balls and takes the place of the first ball. The formerly first ball becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff. Time works the same way.
00:39:33 <lambdabot> `-' (imported from Prelude), `-~' (imported from Control.Lens)
00:39:39 <lambdabot> Num a => ASetter s t a a -> a -> s -> t
00:39:46 <zzo38> kmc: O, that's how it works.
00:40:16 <kmc> zzo38: that's what Terence McKenna says, anyway
00:40:28 <kmc> dude probably smoked his own weight in DMT
00:40:41 <kmc> depending on your perspective that might make him either more or less reliable on these matters
00:40:46 <zzo38> OK, now I can know who such a quotation is from.
00:41:11 <Bike> wait is DMT something you smoke
00:41:12 <kmc> naturally, I know that quote not from reading his writing directly but from hearing it in a psychedelic trance song
00:41:17 <kmc> Bike: can be
00:41:56 <kmc> "When smoked, DMT generally reaches full effects within 10-60 seconds of inhalation." it's one of these
00:41:58 <zzo38> I don't know what "DMT" stands for.
00:42:04 <Bike> dimethyltryptamine.
00:42:20 <kmc> N,N-dimethyltryptamine yeah
00:42:40 <oerjan> I,I N,N-dimethyltryptamine
00:42:43 * kmc has smoked 5-MeO-DMT but not DMT
00:43:16 <Bike> i,i 2-(1H-indol-3-yl)-N,N-dimethylethanamine ¬_¬
00:43:46 <kmc> Bike: you can also trip from eating DMT-containing plants but you need to take them with a MAOI; there are traditional preparations for this
00:43:51 <kmc> copumpkin: oh, how was it?
00:44:05 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t0 = Mutator t0
00:44:05 <lambdabot> Expected type: ASetter (Mutator t0) t0 (Mutator t0) (Mutator t0)
00:44:05 <lambdabot> Actual type: (Mutator t0 -> Mutator t0)
00:44:11 <Bike> https://24.media.tumblr.com/901826dd6f13abf694cac1fb0442643d/tumblr_n09sqfia1j1qetjcco3_250.jpg
00:44:11 <kmc> did you see the machine elves
00:44:12 <oerjan> darn what was it again
00:44:34 <copumpkin> nope, but I saw lots of weird things getting drawn in green tendrils
00:44:46 <copumpkin> it was really weird, part of a ritual in the dark
00:45:06 <copumpkin> the room was completely dark but if my eyes were open, I'd feel super lucid
00:45:21 <copumpkin> but since it was dark and I was seeing shit regardless, my eyes would creep shut without me noticing, but when they were shut I'd feel super mentally congested
00:45:27 <copumpkin> then I'd open them up and feel relieved again
00:45:36 <kmc> that's interesting
00:45:53 <copumpkin> I'd do it again, but didn't much enjoy the throwing up :)
00:46:23 <lambdabot> Getting (Endo (Endo Int)) s a -> s -> Int
00:46:27 <copumpkin> it was the sketchiest thing I've ever done, too. I was in a big city in the peruvian amazon, super poor, driven away into the slums of the poor city
00:46:44 <copumpkin> then walked into a house where the shaman lived
00:46:54 <copumpkin> probably not the wisest thing to do, but it worked out
00:47:00 <kmc> i'm glad it worked out :)
00:47:02 <kmc> eating a large qty of plant stuff is a good way to throw up, yeah
00:47:08 <kmc> though i have puked from pure synthetic psychedelics too
00:47:12 <copumpkin> this was a weird liquid concoction
00:47:13 <kmc> (well, purity unknown but probably high)
00:48:26 <oerjan> FreeFull: view simple _is_ id
00:48:55 <oerjan> FreeFull: the game here is to use no identifiers or constructors defined outside lens
00:49:47 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Choice p) => APrism s t a b -> p (e, a) (f (e, b)) -> p (e, s) (f (e, t))
00:49:55 <lambdabot> (Applicative (Data.Profunctor.Rep.Rep q), Applicative f, Data.Profunctor.Rep.Representable q) => Overloading p q f s t a b -> Overloading p q f s' t' a b -> Overloading p q f (s, s') (t, t') a b
00:50:07 <lambdabot> `aside' (imported from Control.Lens),
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00:56:27 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Contravariant f) => (Maybe b -> f (Maybe b)) -> b -> f b
00:58:24 <oerjan> :t lengthOf (review _Just) _Just
00:58:25 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Maybe (a0 -> Accessor (Endo (Endo Int)) a0)'
00:58:25 <lambdabot> with `(p0 a1 (f0 b0) -> p0 (Maybe a1) (f0 (Maybe b0)))
00:58:35 <lambdabot> Getting (Endo (Endo Int)) s a -> s -> Int
00:59:37 <oerjan> :t lengthOf folded ((review _Just) _Just)
00:59:38 <lambdabot> No instance for (Choice p0) arising from a use of `_Just'
00:59:38 <lambdabot> The type variable `p0' is ambiguous
00:59:38 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
01:00:40 <Bike> can't you just use djinn somehow
01:00:49 <oerjan> :t lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (view simple))
01:00:50 <lambdabot> No instance for (MonadReader a0 m0) arising from a use of `view'
01:00:50 <lambdabot> The type variables `m0', `a0' are ambiguous
01:00:50 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
01:01:43 <oerjan> :t lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple))
01:01:52 <oerjan> > lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple))
01:02:26 <lambdabot> MonadReader b m => AReview s t a b -> m t
01:02:36 <Bike> well i'm satisfied
01:04:07 <oerjan> Bike: just ponder http://cokmett.github.io/cokmett/ (you need to click on the picture)
01:04:53 <Bike> bimonocycleoid
01:06:03 <oerjan> hm i recall a question whether it was statistically guaranteed to halt, don't think it got a proper answer
01:07:08 <zzo38> Highlighting the picture seems to reveal something, although clicking on it doesn't work.
01:08:02 <oerjan> > view curried (productOf both) (lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple))) (lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple)))
01:08:17 <oerjan> > view curried (sumOf both) (lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple))) (lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple)))
01:08:27 <oerjan> @tell Taneb view curried (sumOf both) (lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple))) (lengthOf folded ((review _Just) (over simple)))
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01:09:58 <FreeFull> Heh, using lengthOf for getting numbers
01:10:01 <lambdabot> Getting (Endo (Endo Int)) s a -> s -> Int
01:10:13 <oerjan> Bike: oh Taneb already did
01:10:21 <Bike> yeah but isn't _1 cheating or something
01:10:31 <oerjan> no, _1 is defined in lens
01:10:41 <Bike> yeah but it has a 1 in it.
01:10:43 <Bike> clearly too easy.
01:11:02 <Bike> otherwise why did you go through all the effort of finding another way to get 1
01:11:52 <Bike> hell if i know, i'm not a nerd
01:12:07 <FreeFull> I don't think tuples are indexed
01:12:12 <oerjan> zzo38: it's using javascript
01:14:35 <oerjan> > (3,4) & view (each.index 0)
01:14:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int'
01:14:37 <lambdabot> with `p0 b' (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 b')'
01:14:37 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
01:14:37 <lambdabot> -> p0 b' (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 b')
01:14:37 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
01:14:55 <oerjan> > [3,4] & view (each.index 0)
01:14:56 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int'
01:14:56 <lambdabot> with `p0 t0 (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 t0)'
01:14:56 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
01:14:56 <lambdabot> -> p0 t0 (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 t0)
01:14:56 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
01:15:33 <oerjan> > [3,4] & view (traversed.index 0)
01:15:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int'
01:15:35 <lambdabot> with `p0 t0 (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 t0)'
01:15:35 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
01:15:35 <lambdabot> -> p0 t0 (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 t0)
01:15:35 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
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01:17:03 <oerjan> > (3,4) ^. each.index 0
01:17:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int'
01:17:05 <lambdabot> with `p0 b' (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 b')'
01:17:05 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
01:17:05 <lambdabot> -> p0 b' (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 b')
01:17:05 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor a0 a0)
01:18:29 <zzo38> What is your opinion of procedural SQL? I do not find procedural SQL extensions useful; the features provided by SQLite (now that recursive WITH clauses are supported) is good enough. Wikipedia does say, SQL is influenced by Datalog, so there is some relation to logic programming.
01:18:59 <Bike> procedural sql is the false helix
01:20:13 <zzo38> However, two missing features from SQLite which would help would be CREATE FUNCTION (not in the way PL/SQL does it, though), and ALTER ... RENAME TO ... for objects other than tables.
01:21:03 <zzo38> Better way of CREATE FUNCTION should be one similar to views, so it is like: CREATE FUNCTION name(args) AS expression;
01:22:04 <oerjan> @tell Taneb hm i briefly forgot you'd already done fibonacci.
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01:25:04 <zzo38> To do aggregate functions you should have, before AS, put ACCUMULATING and a list of variables, each one has "name = initial_value UPDATE TO new_value". Do you think that would be better way?
01:26:28 <zzo38> For example: CREATE FUNCTION TOTAL(X) ACCUMULATING (T = 0 UPDATE TO T+X) AS T;
01:28:55 <oerjan> <Bike> no pasting allowed? <-- pasting is allowed. you're just not allowed to look at the result.
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01:55:23 <oerjan> i think the last paragraph of this blog post is on topic here http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/finite-time-blowup-for-an-averaged-three-dimensional-navier-stokes-equation/#respond
01:55:42 <oerjan> oops i forgot to take off that #respond
01:55:54 <oerjan> (as did the reddit poster)
01:56:52 <Bike> it is my dream to some day understand something tao says
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01:57:32 <oerjan> basically terry tao is suggesting that it _could_ in principle be possible to disprove the navier-stokes conjecture by embedding a computer into ideal fluid mechanics
01:58:27 <oerjan> or something equivalent to a cellular automaton replicator
01:58:34 <Bike> «To visualise the dynamics of such a system, I found it useful to describe this system graphically by a “circuit diagram” that is analogous (but not identical) to the circuit diagrams arising in electrical engineering» damn
01:58:53 <Bike> not that this looks anything like a circuit diagram but
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02:00:30 <oerjan> also he refers to the lord of the rings movies
02:01:10 <oerjan> (don't worry Bike, i don't really understand any of this either)
02:01:29 <Bike> i've yet to meet anyone that can understand tao
02:02:28 <Bike> of course, i probably couldn't understand anyone who could understand tao
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04:03:00 <Taneb> What d'you call the idea that if you choose something randomly it tends to be one of the more common ones?
04:16:24 <zzo38> Taneb: It isn't precisely clear what you mean.
04:16:43 <Taneb> I don't think it really matters
04:17:08 <Taneb> Like, I'm trying to compute an estimate of the mode. Enumerating the possibilities is expensive.
04:18:12 <Taneb> I don't think it really matters what I call it
04:19:22 <oerjan> well i think the mode may be one of the hardest parameters to estimate if you don't have some other knowledge about the distribution
04:20:21 <oerjan> because you might miss it completely if it's a narrow spike
04:21:29 <Taneb> oerjan, here it's the case that any of the population is sort of good enough
04:21:32 <Taneb> Just the mode is the best
04:22:04 <zzo38> O, yes, that is what it is called; it is called the mode.
04:22:18 <zzo38> At first I didn't understand, but of course, that is what it is.
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04:40:47 <zzo38> I thought of idea to connect I/O devices to computer and to each other using ethernet, that peer-to-peer is possible, no special drivers are need to write implementations or proxies, and several other things.
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04:48:19 <newsham> just hook up keyboard to ethernet broadcast
04:48:24 <newsham> everyone gets every keystroke..p2p!
04:48:46 <kmc> in uni we made a Linux kernel driver which let you share a page of memory with every host on your LAN
04:48:58 <zzo38> Yes, that is the other thing; to allow multiple devices to be having multiple devices.
04:49:22 <kmc> it was p. cool, you could just write into memory and the other nodes would see it by magic
04:49:30 <zzo38> For example to allow one keyboard on two computers, or multiple computers to share access to a single disk.
04:49:31 <kmc> of course doing this with good performance is Very Hard
04:49:42 <kmc> but it's also a problem that multi-core systems have to solve
04:49:46 <zzo38> A file system could be supported using FTP and Plan 9 protocols.
04:50:15 <newsham> EPARSE "ftp and plan9 protocols"
04:50:37 <kmc> it would have been fun to extend that project by implementing real cache coherence protocols
04:51:05 <pikhq_> newsham: Plan9 is a network protocol. To be specific it is the network protocol used for all RPC on Plan 9. :)
04:51:23 <zzo38> Or to have two devices connected to each other without necessarily needing the host computer (other than a router or something like that).
04:52:28 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/plan9/
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04:57:43 <zzo38> I think it would be a good idea to make each process in a Linux (or similar) system to have a filesystem associated which is under its directory in /proc/ and if the program doesn't provide a filesystem, then you should get a "disk is not inserted" error when you try to access it.
04:58:35 <newsham> luserdroog: you should use it. you can get a vm imgae setup really quickly.
04:59:13 <luserdroog> Hmm. I do have some free disk space after offloading some porn....
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05:07:27 <atriq> My desktop decided to stop working
05:07:40 <atriq> First time I've used my laptop in aaaages
05:08:38 <oerjan> is it pining for the fjords
05:08:57 <atriq> It's pining for a hard drive that hasn't fallen out, I think
05:09:15 <newsham> plan9 ran on big machines in 2002. so pretty much takes up no disk space today ;-)
05:09:29 <newsham> also the core system is itself pretty small
05:09:58 <newsham> you can find some demo videos on youtubes, too
05:10:13 <atriq> You know, it's 5 am
05:10:17 <atriq> I really should sleep
05:10:42 <Sgeo> Didn't people used to complain about how much resources a Smalltalk VM took up?
05:11:12 <zzo38> How much resources to they compare to how much DOS takes up?
05:11:20 <newsham> also easy to get and use -- plan9 ports, which give syou much of the plan9 env/tools in unix. http://swtch.com/plan9port/
05:14:21 <kmc> Taneb: it sounds like you were describing the idea of statistical sampling
05:14:24 <kmc> @localtime atriq
05:14:24 <kmc> people will complain about anything
05:14:25 <newsham> sgeo: now its just a small vm for toys on olpcs. :)
05:14:54 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Tue Feb 18 06:14:51 2014
05:15:20 <lambdabot> Local time for atriq is Tue Feb 18 05:15:25
05:15:25 <Sgeo> Is it possible to obtain OLPCs these days?
05:15:43 <newsham> i imagine people are throwing them away by now
05:16:02 <kmc> Sgeo: ask Blaketh
05:16:13 <kmc> he's in #trains
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05:16:16 <newsham> google says ebay has some for sale in the $100-$150 range
05:16:26 <kmc> at one point he had like 30 of them plus the box that lets you charge 30 batteries at once :)
05:17:04 <newsham> walmart has new olpc tablets
05:17:10 <atriq> My laptop has connectivity problems
05:17:15 -!- SirCmpwn_ has changed nick to SirCmpwn.
05:17:25 <oerjan> one laptop per connection
05:18:25 <newsham> i've got an xo. the clock battery is out, so i have to manually fix the date to use it properly, but other than that in working order
05:20:25 <kmc> i installed debian on mine but it kept hard-freezing
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05:23:35 <oerjan> looks fast enough from here
05:23:41 <atriq> oerjan, it keeps dropping
05:24:00 <atriq> It's fast but unstable
05:24:09 <newsham> i should install the cray emulator on my xo
05:26:15 <zzo38> Have "process custom file systems" been implemented at all? I think I have seen some, but they require the program to terminate and retain some directory elsewhere, which doesn't seem very sensible to me.
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05:32:02 <zzo38> Do you know of any graphics libraries for SQL?
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05:32:31 <newsham> dont know what you mean by 'process custom filesystems'
05:32:56 <atriq> My live esolang creation is in 3 days
05:34:09 <zzo38> newsham: I mean that in the process directory under /proc/ there would be another directory which represents a filesystem implemented by the program, and is available while it is running. If no filesystem is implemented by the program, then you could get a "disk not inserted" error or something like that, when trying to access it.
05:35:04 <newsham> there are programs which implement synthetic filesystems from usre programs, usually using the fuse library and driver.
05:35:16 <newsham> plan9ports (plan 9 from user space) has some in its dist
05:35:32 <newsham> ie. when you run acme you get /mnt/acme/* directories for your acme windows.
05:35:42 <newsham> see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M for a demo
05:35:51 <zzo38> OK, but that isn't quite what I meant.
05:36:04 <zzo38> I meant you would get it in /proc/1928/fs/ or whatever.
05:36:19 <newsham> its a filesystem implemented by a program which is available while its running.. although its not (normally) mounted under /proc
05:36:20 <zzo38> (And if you wanted it elsewhere, you would create a link to it.)
05:36:24 <newsham> it could be, if you wanted it to
05:36:41 <newsham> you can mount it anywhere you feel like, of course
05:37:31 <zzo38> I mean the system should be designed to automatically mount it in /proc whether or not the program even provides a filesystem. If more than one instance is then running, you can access each one by their process ID.
05:38:21 <newsham> whats the advantage? seems like you'd force each proc to implement at most one fs
05:38:34 <newsham> i guess to answer your question, no, i have not heard of such a thing
05:39:19 <zzo38> If it implements more than one, they can be implemented in subdirectories, so you don't need more than one.
05:39:40 <newsham> unless you didnt want them to have a parent/child relation to each other
05:40:14 <newsham> you should implement it for the linux kernel and give it a try
05:40:41 <zzo38> They don't need to; for example you can implement one as /proc/444/fs/A/ and one as /proc/444/fs/B/ but they would generally be the same filesystem actually; if separate implementations exist the program would just proxy them through the A and B directories.
05:41:38 <zzo38> Or else the process could fork additional processes, if that would help at all.
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05:42:38 <Sgeo> I think I'll just have all (most) lenses be merely traversals.... a wrong type would get reported as being 0 targets
05:43:34 <ski> zzo38 : the Aditi project was a really interesting idea
05:44:01 <zzo38> For example if the program implements FTP access as a local file system, then you might use a command like "ftpfs example.org &" and then you get its process ID; afterward you can close the connection by sending SIGTERM to the process, or perhaps to reset the connection by sending SIGUSR1.
05:44:49 <zzo38> ski: What is that?
05:45:02 <ski> a deductive database system
05:45:06 <ski> or rather, it was
05:46:11 <ski> it had integration with Prolog, and later with Mercury
05:46:32 <zzo38> How does it work? Do you have an example?
05:46:47 <newsham> http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/4/ftpfs
05:47:22 <ski> the project page is <http://web.archive.org/web/20091002082304/http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/research/aditi/>
05:48:43 <ski> "it" being the deductive database parts ? or the integration with Prolog or Mercury ?
05:49:10 <zzo38> ski: I mean the deductive database.
05:49:36 <ski> do you know any logic programming (like Prolog) ?
05:50:24 <zzo38> No, I don't know much about it. Wikipedia says SQL is influenced by Datalog, but I don't know much about how Prolog or Datalog works.
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05:50:45 <zzo38> I know SQL though. I also know some about some kinds of synbolic logic.
05:50:58 <ski> well, then you imo should sooner or later learn some Logic Programming. it's quite interesting
05:51:12 <ski> preferably sooner :)
05:51:13 <zzo38> What relation does it have with SQL?
05:51:22 <zzo38> Maybe then I can understand.
05:51:32 <zzo38> Since, I do know how to write programs in SQL.
05:51:57 <ski> unfortunately, SQL has a very ugly syntax
05:52:23 <ski> Logic Programming languages typically borrow their syntax much more directly from first-order predicate logic
05:52:47 <zzo38> I do not think the syntax of SQL is so bad.
05:54:34 <ski> the main thing that should have to be changed in a Prolog-like syntax, to make it better applicable to databases, it adding support for records / named arguments, so that you don't have to remember the order of arguments for a thirteen-arity relation
05:54:38 <zzo38> newsham: I can see from that, its implementation has to add various things such as using unmount command, trying to access the user's home directory, etc, even though with my suggestion it is a bit more simpler since you can just use SIGTERM to get rid of the connection and that would automatically do everything for you; the directory is automatically gone since it is in /proc instead.
05:55:17 <ski> SQL is partly built as a pointful layer over relational algebra, which is more or less pointless
05:55:54 <newsham> i would say sql is totally pointless ;-)
05:56:12 <ski> hehe (i meant "pointless" in the technical sense :)
05:56:29 <Sgeo> Is prolog/datalog syntax actually compilable to something more efficient than brute-force?
05:56:30 <newsham> zzo38: mostly for comedic effect.
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05:57:00 <ski> well, not totally. but unfortunately SQL deviates on several points from the relational model
05:57:15 <zzo38> ski: What kind of points do you mean?
05:57:31 <ski> (and then in addition many DBMSs deviate from the SQL standard)
05:58:02 <Sgeo> :( Datomic is still proprietary, right?
05:58:22 <zzo38> Well, I use SQLite, and think many of the extensions that other systems add are mostly worthless.
05:59:47 <newsham> [19:59] < zzo38> ski: What kind of points do you mean?
06:00:31 <newsham> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree
06:01:13 <zzo38> SQL programming does give everything names, such as tables, fields, and even loops are given names (unlike most programming languages).
06:01:37 <Sgeo> Factor counts as almost fully pointfree, even though you do need to name parameters (just for the types, not for use in code), right?
06:02:18 <newsham> [19:57] < ski> SQL is partly built as a pointful layer over relational algebra, which is more or less pointless
06:02:22 <newsham> yah, he said it was pointful.
06:02:30 <zzo38> A view can contain a SELECT statement that doesn't define names for the result fields, although it won't be so useful if you want to try to insert data into the views (probably to cause triggers to fire).
06:03:56 <ski> zzo38 : some major points : order of attributes should never matter. nulls. duplicate tuples allowed in an extensional relation if it doesn't have a uniqueness constraintH
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06:04:40 <ski> Sgeo : what do you mean by "brute-force" ?
06:04:54 <Sgeo> ski: enumerating through every possibility, ala the List monad
06:05:14 <ski> Sgeo : deductive databases doesn't quite work like that
06:05:26 <Sgeo> ski: ok. Prolog has to though, right?
06:05:33 <ski> yes, but that's different
06:06:04 <zzo38> ski: What do you mean, "order of attributes"? And, you can tell it which fields don't have null values, in SQL.
06:06:25 <ski> Logic Programming languages, like Prolog,Mercury,Oz,lambdaProlog, will employ backward-chaining, and will reason a tuple-at-a-time. this most commonly is implemented by backtracking
06:07:30 <ski> deductive databases otoh will employ forward-reasoning, and reason set-at-a-time, typically using variants of fixed-point-iteration for recursive intensional predicates
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06:08:36 <ski> the latter is typically much more efficient, when you're dealing with huge upto gigantic amounts of data, and only a comparatively very meager amount of rules ("views") in addition to it
06:09:15 <ski> in Prolog, the computation starts from the goal, and reasons backwards, trying to find ways of justifying the goal in terms of new subgoal
06:09:28 <ski> until it comes back to the base data
06:10:12 <ski> and tuple-at-a-time means that it follows one solution at a (conceptually) time, tracing it through the logic
06:10:39 <ski> one can handle multiple solutions in parallel (OR-Prolog) or in sequence (backtracking)
06:11:35 <ski> deductive databases otoh start from the base data, combines such base sets together with each other according to the rules of the intensional database, until it has finally computed the set of tuples corresponding to the query (goal) made by the user
06:12:34 <ski> and set-at-a-time means that it reasons about the sets of tuples/solutions collectively, iterating over them by joins familiar from relational database theory
06:13:31 <ski> the extensional part of the database consists of schemata of extensional/base relations, together with the current data (tuples/facts) that are currently stored in the database for these relations
06:14:18 <ski> the facts in these relations are usually ad hoc, representing some (usually incomplete) view of how the messy world happens to look like at the moment
06:14:38 <ski> (abbreviated EDB)
06:15:32 <ski> the intensional part of the database (IDB), in the SQL case consists of views
06:17:01 <ski> in deductive databases, the IDB *looks* more or less like a program in a Logic Programming language. it consists of mainly rules, and perhaps a few facts as well (thay generally do *not* have an "ad hoc" feel, but rather "must be" what they are, and probably won't change at all in the near future, at least not any more than the rules)
06:17:55 <ski> however, the actual execution of the rules (and facts) here is different, because forward-chaining and set-at-a-time rather than backward-chaining and tuple-at-a-time, as mentioned above
06:19:33 <ski> (btw, one difference between Aditi and basic Datalog is that Aditi had support for handling non-atomic datums in tuples)
06:21:29 <ski> one of the simplest examples of IDB relations is transitive closure
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06:23:59 <zzo38> I do not quite understand what it related to databases.
06:24:38 <ski> we'd first declare something along the lines of
06:25:23 <ski> :- type airport == string.
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06:26:09 <ski> :- type distance == floating.
06:26:17 <ski> :- base flight(airport,airport,distance).
06:26:46 <ski> :- mode flight(out,out,out) is nondet.
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06:27:03 <zzo38> What does ":- mode flight(out,out,out) is nondet." mean?
06:27:05 <ski> (i'm deviating a bit from the actual Aditi syntax here)
06:27:13 <luserdroog> Not irreparable. I broke the pin in the power jack.
06:27:56 <ski> it's a mode declaration, and this mode declaration, with all `out's, and with `nondet' would probably be provided by default for base/extensional relations
06:28:39 <zzo38> I do not understand what that means.
06:28:58 <ski> it basically says that we can generate (output) values for the three attributes of this relation, and that we may get any number of solutions ("non-deterministic", zero or more solutions/tuples)
06:29:36 <ski> i think for every base relation, we will have a mode with only `out's and with determinism `nondet'
06:30:09 <zzo38> How is it different if you don't put "out" in there, then?
06:30:13 <ski> (maybe in some cases it would make sense to change the determinism from `nondet' here, i'm not sure)
06:30:23 <ski> well, that's mostly interesting for IDB predicates
06:31:36 <ski> :- pred trip(airport,airport,distance).
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06:32:05 <ski> :- mode trip(in,out) is nondet.
06:32:19 <ski> er, we should get distance as well
06:32:23 <ski> :- mode trip(in,out,out) is nondet.
06:32:35 <zzo38> And how does that mean, then?
06:32:36 <ski> :- mode trip(out,in,out) is nondet.
06:34:08 <ski> the first of these two modes mean that we may query on the trip/3 relation (which is basically a view, in SQL terminology), providing the starting airport, and get back a set of triples with that starting airport, and all possible ending airports, and the cumulative distance travelled
06:34:29 <ski> for the second mode, in the other direction, from ending to starting
06:35:31 <ski> (possibly there isn't much difference in this specific example, since i suppose flights between airports are usually(?) bidirectional, i.e. offered in both directions -- perhaps this isn't to be assumed in general)
06:36:14 <zzo38> Although SQL views don't take inputs, and may not even contain any meaningful data (when I write SQL programs at least, perhaps half of the time the views don't contain any data and are write-only).
06:36:32 <ski> well, trip/2 itself doesn't take any inputs
06:36:44 <ski> a specific *mode* of it can take inputs
06:36:52 <ski> oh, i just recalled
06:37:17 <ski> extra modes on base relations will in many cases amount to indices on the bsae relations
06:37:22 <zzo38> Ah, what? What is trip/2?
06:37:32 <ski> sorry, trip/3
06:37:58 <ski> :- mode flight(in,out,out) is nondet.
06:38:19 <ski> expresses that you can index on the starting airport in the flight/3 relation
06:38:25 <ski> :- mode flight(out,in,out) is nondet.
06:38:31 <ski> expresses that you can index on the ending airport in the flight/3 relation
06:39:08 <ski> (and yes, as i said above, it would be better to use records or named arguments, instead of relying on argument order for the roles of the arguments)
06:39:24 <ski> anyway, trip/3 can be defined by the *clauses*
06:39:40 <ski> trip(Original,Destination,Distance) :- flight(Original,Destination,Distance).
06:39:54 <zzo38> Ah, OK, so it is like indexing, then.
06:40:20 <ski> trip(Original,Destination,DistanceA + DistanceB) :-
06:40:25 <ski> flight(Original,IntermediateStop,DistanceA),
06:40:30 <ski> flight(IntermediateStop,Destination,DistanceB).
06:41:20 <ski> these two rules (rules and facts are collectively known as clauses) would in SQL probably be expressed as a `union' of two `select' queries
06:41:38 <ski> the `:-' means "if" (in the logical sense)
06:41:46 <zzo38> Yes, that would be UNION
06:42:03 <zzo38> I can see what it is meaning now
06:42:21 <zzo38> Although then you will have no more than two flights, it looks like
06:42:29 <ski> so the first clause says that one can make a trip from `Original' to `Destination' travelling `Distance', *if* one can take a (single) flight from `Original' to `Destination' travelling `Distance'.
06:42:34 <Sgeo> I am involving a lot of other people's intellectual resources on this project, I better follow through on it
06:42:40 <ski> er, sorry, mistyped
06:42:46 <ski> second clause should be
06:42:49 <ski> trip(Original,Destination,DistanceA + DistanceB) :-
06:42:56 <ski> trip(Original,IntermediateStop,DistanceA),
06:43:01 <ski> trip(IntermediateStop,Destination,DistanceB).
06:43:07 <zzo38> Yes, that is better.
06:43:33 <ski> (first i was thinking of an assymetric way of expressing it, but then i changed it to symmetric. unfortunately in the wrong way :)
06:44:00 <ski> ok, so the `,' separating the two trip/3 "calls" to the right of the `:-' ("if") here means "and", logical conjunction
06:44:13 <zzo38> Yes, that is clear
06:44:57 <ski> so the second clause says that one can make a trip from `Original' to `Destination' travelling `DistanceA + DistanceB', *if* one can make a trip from `Original' to `IntermediateStop' travelling `DistanceA' *and* make a trip from `IntermediateStop' to `Destination' travelling `DistanceB'.
06:45:20 <ski> now, for the first mode
06:45:23 <ski> :- mode flight(in,out,out) is nondet.
06:45:28 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand that much already.
06:45:46 <ski> the engine would probably internally rewrite the second clause to instead read
06:45:48 <zzo38> The mode, I don't quite understand yet
06:45:54 <ski> trip(Original,Destination,DistanceA + DistanceB) :-
06:45:56 <ski> trip(Original,IntermediateStop,DistanceA),
06:46:02 <ski> flight(IntermediateStop,Destination,DistanceB).
06:46:10 <ski> for efficiency reasons
06:46:22 <zzo38> Yes I would think too, to do like that
06:46:53 <zzo38> You can do that in SQL too by using recursive queries (something introduced this month, in fact)
06:47:04 <ski> the basic idea for computing trip/3 is to start by the empty set
06:47:12 <ski> then initialize by filling it with all the tuples/rows/facts from flight/3 -- this corresponds to the first clause above
06:47:47 <ski> zzo38 : yes, however, iiuc deductive databases still can make more general sorts of recursion than recursive `with'
06:48:11 <ski> the next step is to enter a fixed-point iteration loop
06:48:46 <ski> the (original) second clause for trip/3 says how we from tuples in trip/3 *and* from tuples in trip/3 can compute tuples in trip/3
06:48:59 <ski> this is basically a join (plus a little arithmetic and projection)
06:49:41 <ski> so, you use the recursive rule of trip/3 to add succesively more and more tuples to the (temporarily computed) intensional flight/3 relation
06:50:02 <ski> of course, if a tuple is already in the current approximation for flight/3, you don't add it again
06:50:18 <zzo38> Can you give an example of such more general sorts though?
06:50:23 <ski> the iteration stops when nothing new was added in the last step
06:52:27 <ski> the obvious first optimization to this process is to only combine *new* flight tuples with all the existing flight tuples, and also all the existing flight tuples with only the *new* ones, at each step
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06:53:34 <ski> so that in each join, for each combination of two tuples combined, one from the "left" trip/3 call, and one from the "right" one, at least one of those two tuples was newly added in the last iteration step
06:53:46 <ski> this is known as semi-naive execution
06:54:17 <ski> there are several further optimization steps, often depending on the actual structure of the recursive rule
06:54:44 <ski> well, several further possible optimization steps one could apply, i mean
06:55:46 <ski> one of these is that, in the case that the original starting airport (in terms of the example above) is known, it is better to use the alternative formulation of the recursive rule, with one call to trip/2 and one to flight/3, joining these instead
06:56:23 <ski> that way you only add one more airport to the conceptual (not stored/computed in the example) list of airports along the trip
06:56:52 <ski> the gain is that there's in general *many* ways to arrive at a string by concatenating smaller strings
06:57:26 <ski> so, the original (unoptimized) version will be inefficient in that it will recompute the same tuple very many times
06:57:34 <ski> already with
06:57:50 <ski> there are two different ways to built it up from parts
06:58:27 <ski> as the number of nodes rise, the number of possible ways to arrive at the list rises at a faster rate
06:58:40 <ski> (i don't recall whether it's exponential, or only polynomial rn)
06:58:49 <ski> (hm, probably exponential)
06:59:05 <ski> so, one could consider a query
06:59:37 <ski> ?- trip(sydney,Destination,Distance).
06:59:45 <ski> (capital letter signifies a variable)
06:59:53 <ski> this would be logically equivalent to saying
07:00:13 <ski> ?- Origin = sydney,trip(Origin,Destination,Distance).
07:00:44 <ski> however, it's inefficient to compute *all* the trips whatsoever, and only *then* join with the `Origin = sydney' condition
07:01:08 <ski> (yes, this is conceptually a join. though of a special sort which is a projection)
07:01:47 <ski> so, regardless of whether you write the former or the latter query (`?-' is the query prompt, btw), the system will actually compute this in a more efficient way
07:02:40 <ski> it will note that the `Origin' will be passed along unchanged between the call to the left of `:-', and the recursive call, all the way down to the call to the base relation flight/3
07:03:19 <ski> so, it will internally compute a specialized version of trip/3 that has propagated the information `Origin = sydney' all the way down to the fetch from the base relation
07:03:36 <ski> and this is of course where the extra mode (the index) on the base relation comes in
07:03:55 <ski> so, we only select flights taking off from `sydney' out of potentially very many flights
07:04:39 <ski> the classic general transformation that can propagate "constraints" from the query down the intensional clauses is called "magic sets"
07:04:58 <ski> there are also other transformations, sometimes better, but often only applying in special cases
07:07:56 <quintopia> return (t%32)|(t*6)&(0xFF*(~t>>11&1))|(t*4)&(0xFF*(t>>12&1))|(((~t>>10)&(~t>>11)&1)*rand(256*256))|int(t*[1.25,1.25,1.5,1.5,1.66666,1.6666,1.5,1.5,2,2,1.875,1.66666,1.5,1.25,1.125,1][(t/2048+c)%16])<<3
07:08:07 <ski> you can also add more complex constraints, like
07:08:23 <ski> ?- Origin = sydney,Distance < 1000.0,trip(Origin,Destination,Distance).
07:09:15 <ski> and that inequality constraint would be used to ignore temporary flights that already have too high a distance, not bothering to involve such tuples in further joins
07:09:41 <ski> zzo38 : i suppose this gives a starting idea of some of what deductive databases are about
07:09:50 <ski> i have to leave presently, though .. :/
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08:28:26 <myname> most of the time i look in this channel is like "dafuq am i readin"
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10:56:29 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/8146474/Ship-not-allowed-to-deliver-40000-tons-of-much-needed-road-salt-to-New-Jersey-because-A-The-ship-cant-dock-because-of-weather-B-Nobody-will-unload-it-because-of-a-dock-worker-strike-C-The-ship-isnt-carrying-an-American-flag
10:56:44 <Sgeo> I feel like an idiot, the comments are saying everyone knows what is actually meant
10:57:00 <Sgeo> I shoudl probably be seeping
11:43:15 <zzo38> Do you know, if a program licensed under GPL is linked with SQLite and uses sqlite3_enable_load_extension(db,1) then what are the license requirements? SQLite itself is public domain.
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12:19:40 <nortti> https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%93afodtramet
12:21:41 <Sgeo> Is there ANYONE alive today who natively speaks old English?
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12:23:35 <Sgeo> Wait, this isn't genuine Old English, is it?
12:23:41 <Sgeo> "As a general rule for the OE wiki, try to remember the following OE guidelines to give this wiki a consistent look and feel:"
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12:26:23 <nortti> Sgeo: as fair as I understand, it is real old english with neologisms for words not in the real old english
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13:30:04 <Sgeo> http://osrc.dfm.io/Sgeo flipped from me being a Haskell coder to being a Racket coder. With one push.
13:33:02 <int-e> http://osrc.dfm.io/int-e lists zeckendorf first, I need to push some more stuff to lambdabot ...
13:34:41 <int-e> I'm also unsure what recruiters would make of making new repositories at 3am. heh.
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13:47:53 <fizzie> Oh no: after having that one semi-punny alliterative homework problem title ("Conditional contradiction conundrum"), now I'm tempted to make another one.
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16:12:32 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_access_principle#Problems :|||
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16:13:15 <Bike> nerds using standard references from science fiction you say
16:25:45 <Vorpal> So when I got out at the gas station after driving home from work today I saw smoke from the front right wheel. At the moment I hate being a car owner. -_-
16:26:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, any new photos to cheer me up?
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16:35:42 <oklopol> i mean a temporary one, i still have one lesson this month and two next month
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16:39:26 <Vorpal> oklopol, oh? I guess it works differently over there then, never heard of temporary licenses
16:40:23 <oklopol> first you drive with a piece of paper for a few weeks, then you get a temporary license in the mail, then you get a permanent one after 1-2 years.
16:40:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, huh, okay that isn't how it works in Sweden
16:41:05 <oklopol> also it costs about 2000 euros
16:41:35 <Vorpal> You do get a piece of paper for a couple of weeks after passing the tests (both the theoretical and the practical ones), but then you get your proper license in the mail.
16:46:12 <Slereah> Does dev C++ have tools to auto add classes and such?
16:46:16 <Slereah> Or do I have to do it manually
16:53:17 <Slereah> what should I use for a quantum computer simulation
16:53:26 <Slereah> I guess I need a QUANTUM STATE thing, for a start
16:53:55 <Slereah> Then add some spin and momentum attribute
16:54:16 <Slereah> Such that they are arrays of values
16:54:55 <Slereah> Then multiparticle states as arrays of one particle states, with maybe some indicator of the superselectors/commutation rules
16:56:55 <Slereah> And since it's a finite discretized space, I can consider that the momentum is an int
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18:12:04 <Slereah> The thrill of the forbidden
18:12:14 <Slereah> I'm writing in C++ and making all my shit public
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19:12:25 <nyuszika7h> hi, I need the shortest way to set the current cell to a random value - either 0 or 1
19:13:26 <ais523> nyuszika7h: BF is deterministic
19:13:26 <oklopol> it's a deterministic language
19:13:30 <ais523> best you could do would be a pseudorandom number
19:13:39 <ais523> in which case the better the quality of the randomness you want
19:13:41 <ais523> the longer the program will be
19:14:06 <ais523> you'd have to maintain PRNG state somewhere you could easily access on the tape
19:14:23 <ais523> like, simplest would be to use 1 bit of state and just alternate, but that doesn't look very random
19:14:33 <ais523> what do you need the pseudorandomness for? there might be an easier solution
19:14:54 <HackEgo> dricoin barbacoin vercoin ozdecoin trianiconcoin aeedius'scoin ()coin dupdogma-2dcoin unlcoin sumambalzbaumiccoin neocoin brocoin xlikecoin snaitcoin puzzcoin basisheadcoin alizicoin tbittcoin skucoin d16coin
19:15:32 <ais523> this `coins thing is actually really realistic
19:15:34 <ais523> much better than `words
19:15:44 <kmc> heh d16coin
19:15:47 <Taneb> ais523, that's the terminal object of Crypcurren, the category of cryptocurrencies
19:15:52 <nyuszika7h> I just need to randomly move either left or right, but it would need to check for staying in range too, so forget it, it's probably gonna be long, not suitable for golfing :P
19:15:59 <Jafet> The mythical 16-sided coin
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19:16:06 <ais523> nyuszika7h: yeah, I don't think it'd be golf-suitable
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19:32:43 <kmc> good PRNG for BF is an interesting question, though
19:32:46 <kmc> perhaps a LFSR
19:33:33 <ais523> kmc: using one bit per cell?
19:33:50 <kmc> it was good enough for the DVD CCA right https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/css-brainfuck.txt
19:33:53 <kmc> 90s kids remember
19:33:54 <ais523> the actual shifting would be awkward, though
19:34:04 <ais523> unless you allowed the RNG state to move along the tape
19:42:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's a photo: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140215-mystery.jpg
19:43:35 <kmc> what's this?
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19:43:58 <Taneb> Looks like a speaker or a microphone
19:47:08 <fizzie> It's a closeup of the surface of one of these reflector things, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140218-ref.jpg
19:48:49 <fizzie> That's about 7-8 cm tall, for a size reference.
19:49:15 <kmc> is this one of those thing which reflects light especially in the direction from which it came?
19:49:38 <fizzie> Yes. Here's what I get if I turn the led "flash" on in the phone the latter picture was taken with: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140218-ref2.jpg
19:49:40 <kmc> so how big physically is one pixel in that image?
19:50:04 <kmc> is it basically made of a bunch of tiny corner cubes? i never understood how those work
19:50:21 <fizzie> There's a handy diagram, I saw it.
19:50:36 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_of_retroreflectors.svg
19:50:43 <fizzie> I think it's more like type 1.
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19:51:21 <fizzie> Except you need a corner of a cube in three dimensions, of course.
19:52:04 <fizzie> But it's easy to figure out since if you take the incident ray in the coordinate axis set up by the edges of the cube, then one wall will do x = -x, second one will do y = -y and third one will do z = -z.
19:55:05 <fizzie> As for pixel size, in other photos the width of the entire image (at the distance that's in focus) has generally been somewhere around 5 mm.
19:57:08 <fizzie> So given the original 5472x3648 resolution, one pixel would correspond (very approximately) to 1 µm. Though that's been scaled to 25% (so 4 µm?), I haven't really been getting pixel-sharp images out of that setup.
19:58:24 <fizzie> Like they say: when you all you have is a cobbled-together macro thing, everything looks like it's in need of magnification.
20:02:28 <fizzie> If you want to guesstimate distances, the diameter of the inner thread in https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140203-ding.jpg is (like it says) 52 mm and if you look at the dent, you get (scaled to 50% because there really isn't any detail above that) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140218-ding.jpg
20:02:50 <kmc> you should photograph some mushroom gills!!!
20:03:25 <kmc> if you're getting 4μm resolution you might be able to identify general spore shape and size
20:05:51 <fizzie> I probably should look at something natural, yes. Not that I think I have any mushrooms handy right now.
20:07:20 <fizzie> Apropos nothing, today when getting home from the city the bus in front had a license plate reading "KMC-NNN", where NNN stands for three decimal digits I no longer remember.
20:08:42 <kmc> TIL you can declare uninhabited types in Rust. also that you can crash the compiler if you use unsafe hax to create values of that type anyway
20:19:39 <olsner> you know how some degenerate code ends up being primarily layers and wrappers around other stuff with almost nothing doing anything real?
20:20:42 <kmc> in my experience basically all software is like that
20:21:06 <olsner> I wonder if you could make an esolang around that, where each method/function/unit can do extremely little by itself
20:21:15 <kmc> it's called Java *rimshot*
20:21:49 <olsner> well, no, Java allows methods to do a lot if you just write them like that :)
20:22:15 <olsner> had a Java project where one method tended to break JVMs because it was too big
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20:26:31 <olsner> (meanwhile, on another floor of the same building, a C++ project came up against VS6's limit of 65536 lines in one source file)
20:28:26 <FreeFull> 16 bits ought to be enough for everybody!
20:29:52 <kmc> that's a pretty annoying limit
20:30:49 <olsner> I think it was lines in the file itself, not counting include files etc
20:31:05 <kmc> still, 65k lines isn't that implausible, especially if it's generated
20:31:48 <newsham> if its generated you can make lines very short
20:32:03 <olsner> amalgamated sqlite is longer than 64k lines I think
20:32:12 <newsham> oh this is line count, not line length. ooops
20:36:41 <kmc> the longest source file in Linux 3.14-rc3 is 28,729 lines and has four comments (not counting "Copyright (c) 2010 Broadcom Corporation" at the top)
20:36:44 <kmc> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/net/wireless/brcm80211/brcmsmac/phy/phy_n.c
20:37:13 <kmc> it has huge tables but it's at least 50% actual code
20:38:56 <FireFly> vim's sourcefiles are all like 10k
20:39:15 <FireFly> lines each.. and that's how they are "maintained"
20:39:41 <FireFly> They also use this horrible indentation alternating between four spaces and a single tab, for who knows what reason
20:41:50 <olsner> nice how the comments in that broadcom thing are all useless
20:42:08 <ais523> FireFly: that indentation's pretty common in older sources
20:42:37 <FireFly> ais523: is there any sensical reason behind it?
20:42:40 <kmc> there's a "correct" way to mix tabs and spaces but almost nobody can do it consistently
20:42:44 <ais523> FireFly: yeah, saves bandwidth
20:42:57 <ais523> because the standard is that tabs are 8 characters
20:43:06 <ais523> at the start of a line
20:43:21 <ais523> so it's a compressed form of 4-space indentation that looks right on anything but a badly misconfigured editor
20:43:21 <FireFly> Yes, sure. But still, the indentation is somewhat negligible compared to the actual code, isn't it?
20:43:34 <fizzie> kmc: Welp, I took a picture of the screen of my (2012) Nexus 7, and one Nexus-pixel is approximately 140 image pixels wide. The screen is nominally 216 ppi, so... 140*216 = 30240 image pixels/inch -> 0.84 µm/pixel. Though it's really impossible to judge how much actual detail I could get, since all that light is just blobs.
20:43:46 <ais523> FireFly: I'm not so sure
20:43:58 <ais523> the average length of a line of code isn't that long, especially if in deeply nested indentation
20:44:01 <ais523> and the indentation precedes every line
20:44:30 <FireFly> Btw, I've seen that abused in python golfing
20:44:49 <ais523> I thought Python refused to compile code that mixes tabs and spaces?
20:44:52 <FireFly> i.e., use spaces for the first level of indentation and tabs for the next
20:45:08 <FireFly> I think it either sees tabs as a hard eight spaces, or applies the regular expansion rule
20:54:10 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140218-art.jpg
20:54:26 <olsner> vt100 lets you place the tab stops freely
20:56:16 <olsner> not sure if it has a maximum number of tabs though or if you could place one in every column if you wanted to
21:15:16 <FreeFull> At least, if displayed on a TV
21:27:28 <FireFly> tabs(1) allows you to configure tabstops too
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21:29:58 <newsham> [10:46] < ais523> I thought Python refused to compile code that mixes tabs and spaces?
21:30:09 <newsham> there's a -t option to warn and a -tt option to error on mixed tabs.
21:30:24 <newsham> but otherwise it has a rule to treat tabs like a seq of spaces
21:31:45 <newsham> (it uses tab stops of 8 spaces)
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22:46:53 <HackEgo> thrasos: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:39:45 <shachaf> elly is the hanks of `ello
23:42:41 * boily sings “Still alone in o-hell-o // See the deadly nightshade grow ♪”
23:45:35 <oerjan> is that like o-hi-o but with more sulphur
23:48:54 <boily> Ohio doesn't seem to be particularly sulphurous ← http://www2.ohiodnr.gov/Portals/oilgas/_MSDS/baker-hughes/CD-32.pdf
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23:49:42 <boily> except probably in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulphur_Springs,_Ohio
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00:12:34 * kmc rages at vim
00:13:16 <kmc> i recorded a macro with a substitution in it, and the macro was bizarrely broken
00:13:37 <kmc> and I eventually realized that it had literally recorded me typing :, up arrow, up arrow, enter to recall one of my previous commands
00:14:02 <kmc> and so it would always run the second-to-most-recent :-command, whatever that is
00:15:36 <oerjan> i don't think that was actually vim's fault, kmc
00:17:09 <boily> for a moment I thought that end-of-sentence “kmc” was a new kind of “hth”.
00:17:49 <kmc> oerjan: how do ya figure
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00:34:31 <oerjan> everything is a kind of hth, boily
00:36:20 <pikhq_> kmc: Amusing fact. Your registerless BFC borks on LostKng.b.
00:37:39 <kmc> do you know how/why?
00:37:56 <kmc> it has clamping cell overflow (which is unusual) and zero-on-EOF
00:38:19 <pikhq_> Not especially. I just know that it ends up outputting a large number of strings in response to any input.
00:38:29 <pikhq_> LostKng doesn't use overflow or EOF at all though.
00:38:58 <kmc> does it run off the end of the tape?
00:39:25 <kmc> oh it is an enormous program too
00:39:29 <kmc> maybe it's just toooooo big
00:39:40 <kmc> don't know what would cause that but
00:39:44 <pikhq_> I did get a binary that executes at least.
00:39:46 <oerjan> 640K should be enough for any program
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01:11:44 <FreeFull> oerjan: 4K is enough to simulate a universe, 640K is overkill
01:12:12 <oerjan> well some people might want to simulate more than one universe.
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01:43:50 <boily> what if Canada is a simulation? or even worse: what if only 256 KiB are needed?
01:44:12 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
01:44:43 <oerjan> i think that entry may have been changed.
01:45:08 <oerjan> like, if the repository browser were working, i might actually be able to check it.
01:45:12 <kmc> slow riot for new zero kanada
01:45:36 <oerjan> Gregor has a pretty stable connection...
01:45:39 <boily> fungot: can you translate what kmc just uttered?
01:45:40 <fungot> boily: the first big number is the and of the scheme's i'm familiar with, but that's what they're there for a second and i'll get right on implementing it. it's quite good
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02:47:54 * oerjan plays the sad trombone for quintopia
02:49:09 <oerjan> WHY THE SHORT YET FROWNING FACE
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03:33:44 <quintopia> oerjan: because boily only gets online when i'm at work nowadays
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03:47:04 <quintopia> and you are like antisocial and stuff right? :P
03:48:24 <pikhq_> Doesn't Gregor run his IRC from a VPS?
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04:49:04 <Bike> " PT621 him-5(e1490) myIs4 [PKD-2::GFP +Punc-122::GFP]V" biologists need your help to come up with sensible naming schemes
04:52:14 <Bike> oh, no, it's a nematode line
04:53:12 <kmc> philip k dick with 2 green fluorescent protein
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04:55:02 <oerjan> fungot: i think Bike and lifthrasiir have been taking lessons from you
04:55:02 <fungot> oerjan: tried to cram cash in without remembering to select payment type ( and cash is the only free var in the program
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05:11:07 <HackEgo> olist 946: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
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05:33:36 <HackEgo> tagtcoin bratcoin bombcoin pooncoin unlolbrokcoin percoin javacoin bisiringtoncoin aflipcoin greturninicoin damcoin rwritschecoin aheiiicoin bfmcoin lintecoin pcoin fithmacoin benacoin iintecoin foodcoin
05:34:10 <HackEgo> esrrcoin wuecoin ligataticoin thcoin fullyidocoin otlastillcoin betcoin doncecoin computecoin roscoin tricoin cabracoin fonnailcoin machipcoin poocoin suxcoin donaligaterwingcoin baggecoin 0.24coin willgolcoin
05:34:14 <kmc> how many bratcoin for a currywurst
05:34:31 <kmc> esrcoin ..................
05:34:57 <copumpkin> one foodcoin and one bratcoin for a currywurst
05:35:10 <kmc> that makes sense
05:35:15 <kmc> is this a whole crafting system a la minecraft
05:35:44 <kmc> oh boy, an MMO where assets and long-term character stats are stored in a distributed blockchain
06:03:19 <Sgeo> "I feel as if "Cheating At Cookie Clicker" would make a great introductory JavaScript topic"
06:05:46 <Sgeo> "If your infinite hotel is full, new guests should be turned away. Why inconvenience existing guests for no increase in revenue?"
06:06:59 <Bike> cheating at cookie clicker is one of the saddest things imaginable
06:07:10 <kmc> set theory / hotel management double major
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07:06:52 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
07:07:34 <ais523> checked the log manually
07:12:17 <shachaf> Now we'll be free of olists for over a month!
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09:18:23 <HackEgo> cyclicoin cowcoin sebcoin achcoin thersethaxnmcoin this=thacoin alphabecoin bftitcoin athcoin paitcoin thratacoin flipovcoin manciacoin yeologicoin whocoin sorcentcoin snycoin moniacoin verginexteencoin folcoin
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09:48:14 <b_jonas> maybe it's time to modify that script to sometimes use prefixes other than coin, such as "dollar", "money", "credit", "gold", "zorkmid" etc
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10:08:28 <ais523> b_jonas: you mean "suffixes"?
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10:59:13 <b_jonas> damn, I always mix those up
10:59:30 <b_jonas> dunno why, I know prefix is at the beginning and suffix is at the end but somehow don't write that
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11:27:15 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
11:31:10 <int-e> Good pre-multi-A-post-exclamation-H day.
11:40:44 <boily> OotS will only return on March 31!
11:41:43 <boily> (also, I seem to have lost the new fruit jam I bought the other day somewhere in my apartment.)
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12:59:50 <Sgeo> Are there energy drinks whose only active ingredient is caffeine?
13:00:11 <Sgeo> Starting to think that the taurine in Red Bull isn't just a marketing gimmick, like I was hoping, but actually dangerous
13:05:08 <Sgeo> Coffee is too hot and doesn't taste good
13:05:51 <oklopol> the latter is of course a problematic problem
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13:06:44 <Sgeo> Red Bull tastes soo good
13:10:39 <FireFly> I probably shouldn't have @asked that
13:11:13 <FireFly> oh, it doesn't even say why
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13:46:14 <b_jonas> Sgeo: if coffee is too hot, have you tried ice coffee?
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13:55:12 <nyuszika7h> could someone explain how PRNGs work in BF? I don't understand how randomness can work in it, without relying on user input
13:58:08 <fizzie> There's probably nothing particularly BF-specific about pseudorandom sequences.
13:59:58 <ais523> basically, you can't construct a sequence that actually /is/ random, so you try to construct one that /looks/ random
14:00:13 <ais523> via using some formula that's designed to produce random-looking output
14:00:48 <ais523> there are basically three qualities of PRNG, "good enough to fool a human", "good enough for use in statistics", "crypto-hard to figure out what's coming next without knowledge of the internal state"
14:22:55 <fizzie> ^bf +[>>>>+++++++++++++++++[-<<<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]>]<<<[-]>[-<+>]<+++++++.<]
14:23:00 <fungot> ~eax]4{2YnUsQhM$k"I^E ...out of time!
14:24:09 <fizzie> (It's just x(n) = (17*x(n-1) + 7) % 256, and I just took two small-ish primes that aren't necessarily very optimal.)
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17:01:45 <newsham> fizzie: not good enough to fool human
17:02:22 <newsham> low bit is x(n) = (17*x(n-1) + 7) % 2
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17:05:30 <fizzie> That really depends on the human.
17:05:43 <fizzie> Many would take a look at "~e¼ƒºaxÿö]4{2Yð÷nU¬sªQhïæM$k"Iàç^Eœ" and say "looks random".
17:06:06 <newsham> if you wrote it as integers it would be much more obvious
17:11:05 <newsham> [1, 24, 159, 150, 253, 212, 27, 210, 249, 144]
17:12:51 <newsham> >>> map(mod2, take(10, gen(1)))
17:12:52 <newsham> [1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0]
17:16:12 <fizzie> I started with x(0) = 0, if you want to be picky.
17:18:23 <newsham> so instead of [1,0,1,0...] you get [0,1,0,1,....] the two are isomorphic ;-)
17:19:07 <fizzie> Hey, at least it's got full period of 256 overall.
17:27:10 <lifthrasiir> fizzie, actually, mojibake acts as some kind of s-box (composed of individual pixels in glyphs)
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17:27:49 <lifthrasiir> so glyphs from not-really-random character codes can be random to some extent.
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18:20:52 <FreeFull> xorshift might seem more random
18:21:17 <FreeFull> Wait, I don't even know what language this is
18:26:51 <fizzie> The ">>>" reminds me of Python, and the rest could work, given suitable definitions.
18:27:06 <fizzie> Could be something else, of course; I'm sure it's not a unique prompt.
18:28:22 <fizzie> As for anything else than a simple LCG, sure, but it was just an ad-hoc brainfuck oneliner.
18:28:36 <FreeFull> I wish people would abandon bf already for some sort of rlefuck
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18:33:36 <FreeFull> A lot more concise, and can be translated back to brainfuck easily
18:33:37 <tromp__> that's not abandoning, that's adding sugar on top
18:34:12 <FreeFull> tromp__: Except that all fast brainfuck interpreters will use a representation closer to rlefuck inside
18:34:27 <fizzie> I could make fungot's bf command accept that too -- since it's already part of the inner workings -- but what about all the digits used as comments in existing programs, huh?
18:34:27 <fungot> fizzie: okay then... that's wrong.
18:34:28 <tromp__> no; they're alrd free to do that
18:34:59 <FreeFull> fizzie: well, I'd expect it to be a separate command
18:35:13 <FreeFull> Then all existing brainfuck programs would still use the old command
18:35:59 <tromp__> but much of the point of bf is to be a *minimal*tm language
18:36:26 <tromp__> if you keep adding sugar, you might end up with C :)
18:36:45 <quintopia> tromp__: pfft. that is hardly the point. BF has way more operations than it needs to :P
18:37:31 <tromp__> well, mostly because it chose to work with bytes instead of bits
18:38:08 <tromp__> once you use bytes, you like to have both + and -, rather than use 255+ for -
18:38:45 <tromp__> the thing is that having both + and - is not really sugar
18:39:53 <tromp__> maybe i should the point is to be practically minimal
18:40:32 <quintopia> the point is to have a tiny compiler
18:42:06 <quintopia> (though plenty of other languages have smaller interpreters by now, i think bf was the first with that explicit goal)
18:42:26 <tromp__> a bf self-interpreter with be much harder with rle sugar
18:43:42 <quintopia> not "much". indeed, the optimizing self-interpreters would only be slightly larger (to parse the numbers) since they already do RLE inside
18:53:21 <quintopia> might slightly-too-overengineered-to-be-called-bytebeat song sounds a lot cleaner now
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19:23:15 <^v> im making a irc bot in brainfuck
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20:52:42 <HackEgo> zosicoin writcoin shecoin crobcoin selycoin restepcoin viccoin arrand.nexcoin bensalcoin beltstcycoin nygroucoin vilcoin utncoin mointecoin intfuckcoin fernudencoin sablycoin etacoin sqicoin backcoin
20:54:34 <kmc> intfuckcoin
20:59:05 <HackEgo> hamcoin q-refcoin sponcoin youtcoin schecoin infullcoin shopcoin sartricoin cherivanecoin mingcoin draviacoin bf-sccoin misccoin anycoin orthwatheidotacoin thacoin ortecoin homrodoudcoin perlcoin plucoin
21:00:04 <Taneb> I just woke up and I can't remember going to sleep
21:01:04 <HackEgo> plamcoin capeimacoin soffe7ecoin unocoin hacecoin revanantcoin enitucoin arvoikeampaavascificoin quntercoin bfmcoin kifcoin rejäcoin highcoin mikshakslicecoin farmempässeicoin hulrcoin venänsyinteekcoin harmecoin hydracoin capurjaiotacoin
21:01:20 <olsner> `coins --german-medical 20
21:01:21 <HackEgo> aurientatancecoin ischecoin miaticoin jugcoin xeryticapuirequecoin vellcoin smalexord!cpucoin dageatniocoin hermatisortecoin tesplcapulcoin gaballycoin hancoin clemcoin intcadorningehrcoin cercoin reapongcoin advisioncoin rocerentingchimbcoin hichcoin tachilicoin
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21:04:34 <olsner> it always includes the esolangs and english dictionaries, so that'll be where odd stuff like that comes from
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21:17:57 <Bike> i need to know so i can make up the complaining i didn't know to do
21:20:53 <Gregor> HackEgo's repo browser.
21:21:12 <Bike> oh that. well, oerjan, ur up
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22:36:22 <HackEgo> itfincoin emblefixcoin sadecoin vellcoin semacoin vantiuellecoin foggercoin xlhcoin skincoin parnatincoin laudcoin attecoin brachefficcoin verghcoin regititocoin thratcoin msgiannautocoin hexamicoin bhuttcoin pointcoin
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22:53:08 <oerjan> <boily> OotS will only return on March 31! <-- leave your readers in hell, go on vacation.
22:56:29 <oerjan> <ais523> there are basically three qualities of PRNG, "good enough to fool a human", "good enough for use in statistics", "crypto-hard to figure out what's coming next without knowledge of the internal state" <-- i'm not sure the second is completely a subset of the third. also why are all the interesting people from the logs away.
22:58:23 <oerjan> <fizzie> (It's just x(n) = (17*x(n-1) + 7) % 256, and I just took two small-ish primes that aren't necessarily very optimal.) <-- a max possible cycle length of 256 isn't very optimal, no
22:59:47 <oerjan> > length $ iterate (\x -> 17*x + 7 :: Word8) 0
23:00:28 <oerjan> > length . takeWhile (/= 0) . tail $ iterate (\x -> 17*x + 7 :: Word8) 0
23:00:45 <oerjan> i guess that's maximal.
23:01:15 <oerjan> > length . takeWhile (/= 0) . tail $ iterate (\x -> 17*x + 3 :: Word8) 0
23:01:20 <oerjan> > length . takeWhile (/= 0) . tail $ iterate (\x -> 17*x + 5 :: Word8) 0
23:01:40 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood).
23:02:19 <oerjan> > filter (\y -> 255 /= length . takeWhile (/= 0) . tail $ iterate (\x -> 17*x + y :: Word8) 0) [1,3..]
23:02:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Word.Word8] -> GHC.Types.Bool'
23:02:33 -!- Sellyme has joined.
23:03:23 <oerjan> > filter (\y -> (255 /=) $ length . takeWhile (/= 0) . tail $ iterate (\x -> 17*x + y :: Word8) 0) [1,3..]
23:03:40 -!- boily has joined.
23:03:48 <boily> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMH!
23:04:05 <oerjan> > filter (\(y,z) -> (255 /=) $ length . takeWhile (/= 0) . tail $ iterate (\x -> z*x + y :: Word8) 0) $ join zip [1,3..]
23:04:06 <lambdabot> [(3,3),(7,7),(11,11),(15,15),(19,19),(23,23),(27,27),(31,31),(35,35),(39,39)...
23:04:36 <oerjan> <oerjan> <boily> OotS will only return on March 31! <-- leave your readers in hell, go on vacation.
23:04:55 <lambdabot> FireFly asked 9h 54m 48s ago: why is this?!
23:05:12 <boily> FireFly: FirelloFly. what is why is what?
23:05:19 <oerjan> > filter (\(y,z) -> (y /= z &&) . (255 /=) $ length . takeWhile (/= 0) . tail $ iterate (\x -> z*x + y :: Word8) 0) $ join zip [1,3..]
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23:05:35 <oerjan> hm everything maximal which could be
23:05:40 <FireFly> what is why is oots delayed until late march
23:05:55 <boily> FireFly: I think oerjan pointed that out.
23:06:05 <boily> (also, hellørjan.)
23:06:11 <FireFly> But I noticed that it was added (? or maybe I missed it the first time I read it) to the end of the latest comic
23:06:18 <oerjan> i don't actually have evidence it's a vacation
23:06:45 <boily> also also, has anything happened lately to the Wisdoms?
23:07:05 <oerjan> boily: the repository is back up! you can check yourself!
23:07:27 <FireFly> There's probably a nice oneliner for checking that, but I don't know what
23:07:57 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
23:07:58 * boily galumphes towards the repo
23:08:01 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 4 5000 5000 16384 Feb 19 03:39 wisdom \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 476823 Feb 17 03:23 wisdom.pdf
23:08:08 <oerjan> well i'd assume no that the repository's back up, he might want to check a little further back as well.
23:08:17 <FireFly> `run ls -l wisdom | grep 'Feb 19'
23:08:19 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 162 Feb 19 03:39 kanada
23:08:26 <HackEgo> Your bankers' vain plazas never nutured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all collapsing while your corrupt mayors shrug
23:08:41 <fungot> boily: how's life? i can edit function definitions, but not dns registered
23:09:01 <boily> fungot: life is good, but I can't edit function definitions. my cow orkers don't like it when I do that.
23:09:02 <fungot> boily: does scheme/ do any fnord interps exist?" " have a conversation with someone else about a terrible pun, and it's continuous, will move one derivative and has to be
23:09:27 -!- metasepia has joined.
23:09:37 <FireFly> fungot: derivatives of puns are usually pretty boring
23:09:37 <fungot> FireFly: only what i can tell the difference
23:09:44 <oerjan> `quote ais523.*reference
23:10:01 <oerjan> `quote ais523.*obscure
23:10:09 <HackEgo> 789) <kmc> but i mean i don't like jogging so i wouldn't like jogging while jerking off either
23:10:21 <oerjan> i have a hunch i tried that before and had to look through the logs.
23:10:29 <oerjan> `log ais523.*reference
23:10:30 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
23:11:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:12:27 <boily> ♪ ding ♪ first Wisdom entry under the letter “K”! ♪ dong ♪
23:12:37 <kmc> `quote dong
23:12:56 <oerjan> FireFly: the quotedb hasn't been dead. well not for very long, anyway.
23:14:02 <FireFly> You can't be too sure, you never know with bitrot
23:14:29 * oerjan whistles maniackally, then laughs innocently.
23:15:48 * boily defiantly drinks a diet pepsi in oerjan's general direction. “That'll teach ya!”
23:16:05 <oerjan> i already had a pepsi max earlier today
23:16:15 <kmc> i had 3 diet mountain dews
23:16:18 <kmc> diet mountains dew?
23:19:54 <metasepia> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
23:20:00 <oerjan> hm pepsi max means different things in europe and north america
23:20:14 <boily> our pepsi max is like coke zero.
23:20:55 <FireFly> `learn diets People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
23:21:07 <FireFly> I hope I didn't screw that up
23:21:12 <HackEgo> diets People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
23:21:22 <oerjan> "Unlike the international beverage, the US drink's ingredient label mentions ginseng, and that drink contains nearly twice as much caffeine as Diet Pepsi (46 mg vs. 24 mg per 8 fl oz)."
23:21:25 <olsner> I guess "diets people" works, but the capitalization is wrong
23:21:43 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's/^diets //' wisdom/diets
23:21:44 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/diets: No such file or directory
23:21:58 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/^diets //' wisdom/diet
23:23:24 <oerjan> consistant isn't the right spelling, is it?
23:23:39 <oerjan> or loose, for that matter
23:24:14 <Taneb> "consistent" and "lose"
23:25:37 <boily> time to watch witch craft works' latest episode...
23:32:06 <HackEgo> physcriplcoin hadzacoin waitcoin uricoin rincoin threntcoin inttacoin zoacoin fouquecoin mutarcoin graelcoin mincoin secubcoin veancoin wercoin abcderlcoin frierdcoin daichcoin plunacoin orocoin
23:33:19 -!- augur has joined.
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23:37:59 <HackEgo> 1) <Norman> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
23:38:12 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
23:38:18 <elliott> that quote 1 has been tampered
23:38:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:38:52 <HackEgo> patching file paste.1014 \ patching file paste.11282 \ patching file paste.11437 \ patching file paste.12235 \ patching file paste.12391 \ patching file paste.12738 \ patching file paste.13150 \ patching file paste.13287 \ patching file paste.1368 \ patching file paste.14273 \ patching file paste.14276 \ patching file paste.14992 \ patching file pa
23:39:04 <oerjan> elliott: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/b46cdb85e307
23:39:34 <oerjan> i just started going through the repository browser just in case..
23:40:19 <oerjan> @ask Gregor Why does the (partly vandalism) http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/b46cdb85e307 not have a listed author/command?
23:41:41 <Gregor> Because it's my vandalism.
23:41:50 <oerjan> i'd have assumed it was just Gregor cleaning up if not for the quotes changes
23:42:22 <Gregor> The quotes changes were a request to remove a name.
23:43:49 <oerjan> ah i assume the paste files were those which mentioned em, too
23:44:49 <elliott> just remove the relevant quotes
23:46:12 <oerjan> Gregor: a commit message might have helped hth :)
23:46:55 <HackEgo> 1) <Norman> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 39) <Norman> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them? \ 65) <Warrigal> Invalid! Kill! Kill! <Norman> I get that feeling too.
23:46:59 <HackEgo> sivecoin selfcoin worbcoin theccoin bruicoin heacoin xsilaxcoin tlwncoin excelandacoin hancoin tetcoin surfecoin catcoin allfcoin pointre-calcoin rflcoin revercoin waicoin hebeofthisiacoin diccoin
23:47:15 <oerjan> `run quote Norman | wc
23:47:21 <Taneb> Oh wow, my live esolangs creation is tomorrow
23:47:33 <Gregor> elliott: That changes quote numbers.
23:47:40 <elliott> so does deleting any quote
23:47:46 <Gregor> I didn't delete any quotes.
23:48:07 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/Norman/REDACTED/g' quotes
23:48:18 <oerjan> i think this is more honest, at least
23:48:53 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/Norman/[REDACTED]/g' quotes
23:49:10 <HackEgo> 1) <[REDACTED]> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 39) <[REDACTED]> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them? \ 65) <Warrigal> Invalid! Kill! Kill! <[REDACTED]> I get that feeling too.
23:49:37 <elliott> drawing attention to it is stupid
23:49:41 <elliott> none of those quotes are good anyway
23:49:48 <HackEgo> *poof* <[REDACTED]> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
23:49:52 <HackEgo> *poof* <[REDACTED]> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them?
23:49:55 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
23:50:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
23:50:14 <HackEgo> *poof* <Warrigal> Invalid! Kill! Kill! <[REDACTED]> I get that feeling too.
23:52:52 <HackEgo> larioncoin etacoin musichcoin runkcoin iiricoin boatcoin dovicoin procoin self-modicoin dumbelloncoin parcoin unrecoin lizationcoin cowconfimcoin unclujcoin addliffurenacoin bynedoodcoin lingpetercoin nandomialcoin bencoin
23:52:59 <boily> woooah... what the delquote are you doing there?
23:53:16 <kmc> maybe i'll find the perfect coin to make today not suck :/
23:53:29 <oerjan> boily: apparently aftran doesn't want to be quoted any longer.
23:53:55 <boily> oh well. time to excise the quotes...
23:54:09 <oerjan> you don't _have_ to *whistles innocently*
23:54:19 <HackEgo> bestificiendomycoin ferucoin 17s6coin archcoin intercalcoin tosighcoin jcwentcoin acecoin genomereacoin parcacoin guelcoin ersmalcoin condrcoin libercoin p'scoin thyiionccoin fronymcoin attercoin kippearion23coin alippecoin
23:54:28 <kmc> intercalcoin!!
23:54:44 <boily> oerjan: oooooh. a very machiandinavian technique.
23:55:52 <int-e> Gregor: thanks a lot for the re-browsable repo!
23:57:06 <oerjan> when was it the repository went offline, anyway.
23:57:32 <int-e> when the bot moved
23:58:04 <int-e> oh hmm. no, that's when it became out of date for a while. I don't know when it went offline
23:58:18 <oerjan> sorry, i mean, "what's the earliest repository command i haven't checked yet."
23:58:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
23:58:25 <Taneb> Hey guys, wish me luck
23:58:46 <oerjan> oh right it went out of date
23:59:00 <Taneb> boily, my french is not that great but I do not think that is luck
23:59:39 <Taneb> My live esolang creation is in 19 and a half hours
00:00:04 <boily> Taneb: it's a traditional French luck wish. it comes from theatre actors.
00:00:49 <Taneb> That is just plausible enough for me to quaver in my disbelief
00:01:05 <boily> from fr.wikipedia.org → « Je vous dis merde » -- bonne chance, surtout avant une performance. Expression typiquement employée en France pour encourager la personne qui entre en scène, ou avant un examen.
00:01:56 <Taneb> boily, hmm, you seem to be not lying.
00:02:33 <Taneb> Although in English at least, I would be somewhat surprised if someone said "shit!" when trying to wish someone luck
00:02:54 <kmc> what's the literal translation?
00:03:12 <boily> kmc: fr:merde → en:shit.
00:03:16 <kmc> i meant of the phrase
00:03:49 <kmc> oh it's just like "I tell you"?
00:03:58 <kmc> this doesn't make any sense
00:04:11 <HackEgo> curl: try 'curl --help' or 'curl --manual' for more information
00:04:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:04:17 <boily> kmc: it's an apocryphal reference to a French general. it doesn't make sense.
00:04:56 <boily> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Cambronne
00:05:50 <int-e> `` curl -I google.com
00:05:51 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
00:08:23 <kmc> HackEgo doesn't have direct network access
00:08:33 <oerjan> int-e: you need to use `fetch
00:08:49 <boily> `curl 96.127.250.15
00:08:49 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
00:10:03 <int-e> (sounds like an ok name for an esolang)
00:10:22 <boily> int-e: “break a leg”?
00:11:37 <oerjan> i cannot remember the spot where the repository stopped updating. i hope it wasn't more than 7 weeks ago.
00:12:56 <oerjan> if `pastelogs was working, i could have grepped for when i started complaining.
00:12:57 <boily> what happened 7 weeks ago? a zombie outbreak?
00:13:05 <oerjan> boily: possibly nothing
00:13:20 <boily> zombie outbreak. I stand by my theory.
00:14:31 <oerjan> i see people doing `paste commands, but i cannot tell whether they actually got to see the results
00:16:24 <oerjan> also the repository "helpfully" starts saying N weeks ago instead of N days ago once you go past 13 days.
00:17:04 <oerjan> i can click on a change to get a more accurate date.
00:18:17 <oerjan> ok that allowed me to find a spot in the logs where `pastelogs was definitely working.
00:20:19 <boily> is 30 December already 7 weeks ago?
00:21:35 * boily feels temporally sea-sick.
00:21:47 <oerjan> let's hope it's temporary
00:24:02 <oerjan> <Taneb> SO CLOSE <-- which reminds me that i learned from the newspaper today that the latest justin bieber replacement around these parts is a finn named elliot.
00:25:23 <boily> oerjan: a one-T elliott?
00:25:42 <oerjan> yes, i think so, it was definitely not the same spelling.
00:25:54 <oerjan> also it was the surname. and possibly a stage name.
00:27:24 <oerjan> isac elliot lundén, says norwegian wikipedia.
00:28:09 <oerjan> ok there's an english too, why doesn't google show it...
00:30:52 <kmc> huh rustpkg was deprecated and removed last month
00:31:39 <oerjan> how _does_ google manage not to show an english wikipedia hit in its first 7 pages of hits...
00:32:00 <boily> the Google Bubble Struggle strikes again with No Non-Norwegian Regurgitated Recumbent Results.
00:32:05 <oerjan> (the norwegian wikipedia hit is first, so presumably that has something to do with it.)
00:32:24 <boily> oerjan: on my phone, I can't get un-French wikipédia results.
00:32:56 <oerjan> no wait, third hit. but still.
00:33:31 <boily> oerjan: yup. it's infuriating.
00:34:02 -!- augur has joined.
00:34:44 <oerjan> maybe it's the OQLF's doing...
00:35:24 <boily> I wouldn't be surprised. those OQLF miscreants...
00:36:14 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
00:37:12 <oerjan> searching for "geiranger" gave no en.wikipedia hit on the first page, although "fridtjof nansen" gave no and en as the two top hits, so it's not _always_ the case that norwegian stuff gets no english hits.
00:37:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:37:45 <oerjan> (this is on my laptop.)
00:39:18 <oerjan> boily: does this hold even if the french wikipedia has no article on the subject?
00:39:37 <boily> oerjan: let me check...
00:39:45 <boily> (hm. I need something unfrench...)
00:40:15 <kmc> shachaf: https://github.com/michaelwoerister/rs-persistent-datastructures "In conclusion, even with (atomic, multithreaded) refcounting a HAMT can perform pretty well :)"
00:40:19 <kmc> I had wondered about that!
00:40:41 <boily> oerjan: it has a French version, but we'll see...
00:41:02 <kmc> though it's not clear if there are any multithreaded performance numbers
00:41:12 <boily> ah bin torieux. first hit is fr:, and second is en:.
00:42:00 <boily> it looks awfully like «sucre à la crème».
00:42:36 <oerjan> guess which language google translate thinks "ah bin torieux" is for me
00:43:50 <boily> qc:"ah bin torieux" → en:"well, I'll be damned"
00:44:15 -!- augur has joined.
00:44:32 <boily> oerjan: here it says it's French, and won't translate it.
00:44:57 <oerjan> maybe it's always in your own language
00:45:10 <oerjan> like gin and tonic in the hitchhiker's guide
00:45:31 <boily> hm. speaking of gin tonic, I'll go make one...
00:45:38 <oerjan> also i strongly doubt sucre à la crème tastes the same
00:47:37 <boily> they both have dairy products in them!
00:51:42 <oerjan> "In January 2013, the Bratli Tunnel at Tysfjord was damaged when a lorry load of caramelised brunost caught fire. The high concentration of fat and sugar in the cheese caused it to burn fiercely at sufficiently high temperatures that the fire was still burning five days later."
00:52:22 <oerjan> somehow i didn't pick that one up before
01:02:34 <HackEgo> 1126) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
01:02:39 <Taneb> Sometimes I worry about myself
01:03:42 <kmc> what do you worry
01:03:51 <boily> Taneb, I do have to say, that's my favourite quote about you.
01:04:04 <Taneb> That my life is a series of really boring misadventures
01:04:59 <Taneb> Also that I am a terrible judge of how people are socialing?
01:05:24 <boily> no, it's just that I'm addicted to surreal-slice-of-life tidbits. like, Hidamari Sketch happening IRL.
01:05:47 <Taneb> boily, I meant that in response to kmc
01:06:45 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Guardians of the Galaxy movie
01:11:02 <HackEgo> 392) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10
01:12:02 <kmc> Taneb: I would not expect sf/f and fetish people to have particularly different modes of socializing when they're not actually doing their respective hobbies
01:12:14 <Taneb> kmc, that is part of the confusion
01:12:15 <kmc> in fact i would expect it to be a lot of the same people in both groups
01:12:26 <Taneb> Also, one of them was wearing a Star Wars t-shirt
01:12:30 <kmc> "BDSM is just a kind of LARP"
01:13:01 <Taneb> `learn BDSM is just a kind of LARP
01:13:22 <Taneb> Please do not say that I invented it
01:13:24 <augur> BDSM definitely isnt a kind of LARP
01:13:51 <boily> I won't add that one until someone finds something better. nah!
01:13:59 <kmc> Taneb: can I say that you invented Star Wars?
01:14:05 <kmc> `? Star Wars
01:14:16 <boily> oh, the inception of another tanebvention?
01:14:24 <Taneb> `learn BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
01:14:36 <boily> (btw, I think I gave commit access to a bunch of y'all to the Wisdoms...)
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01:14:47 <kmc> how/where?
01:15:06 <Taneb> I definitely have access
01:15:12 <kmc> hub of the gits.
01:15:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:16:22 <kmc> i'm @kmcallister
01:16:28 <kmc> on the githubs
01:16:58 <kmc> i didn't get an email or anything
01:17:23 <boily> also, I can't remember who sheganinans is.
01:17:49 <boily> anyone here from latvia and/or lithuania?
01:23:38 <HackEgo> mandercoin rocecoin sixturecoin uñarcoin beacrippcoin whencoin ketcoin delatecoin bodningynercoin proacoin prefixedlycoin mazecoin 2docoin hearvacoin vershakecoin discoin clracoin marcoin ludecoin chromerufacoin
01:26:04 <metasepia> CYUL 200100Z 29005KT 15SM FEW045 OVC070 M01/M03 A2972 RMK SC2AC6 SLP066
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01:26:14 <boily> darn. missed the Negative Cow Club.
01:41:25 <oerjan> <boily> anyone here from latvia and/or lithuania? <-- hm i think i saw someone...
01:43:09 <oerjan> oh and e had a real name ending in -is, and was surprised i didn't guess greek, like most do.
01:44:07 <oerjan> Gregor: all this could be confirmed easily if `pastelogs were working hth
01:44:19 <oerjan> (what do you mean i never stop nagging)
01:45:42 -!- ping has joined.
01:46:02 <oerjan> hm jix does but it wasn't him
01:46:09 <oerjan> (and i think he's german anyhow)
01:46:11 -!- ping has changed nick to Guest14054.
01:48:40 <oerjan> oh i think it must be CADD_
01:49:14 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:49:22 <boily> CADD_: are you yourself?
01:49:28 -!- Guest14054 has changed nick to ^v.
01:49:59 <oerjan> 9 days idle, that's something.
01:50:09 <boily> oerjan: I now have a Greek coworker, and both his first and last names end in -os.
01:50:25 <boily> @tell CADD_ are you yourself, or are you someone else who is you?
01:50:43 <oerjan> boily: that's also an option, yes. i'm not sure about lithuanian though, i think they're more -as.
01:51:07 <boily> I always get confused between the two.
01:51:18 <oerjan> anyway, those are both indoeuropean languages that have preserved original final -s in many places.
01:52:07 <oerjan> also latvian i think, but they tend to live off the intermediate vowel.
01:53:23 <oerjan> the icelandic -r is also from that.
01:54:11 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. can you update the fizziegraphs please? I'm curious to see how my new schedulesoteric looks.
01:54:21 <oerjan> (it was supposedly -z in protogermanic.)
01:58:04 <oerjan> i think it's the diphtongs that clue me in to CADD_ not being greek, in particularly the "au" which isn't in greek at all.
01:58:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:00:54 <boily> well. /whois matches CADD_ over to sheganinans, so it is him.
02:03:42 <oerjan> i think agatha's (lack of) plan at girl genius may be going downhill.
02:11:23 <boily> I can't relate (yet).
02:11:44 <oerjan> well i'm a little antsy about it.
02:12:21 <oerjan> (i'm referring to the current intermission story btw)
02:12:56 * boily needs to find a bit of paper to make a todo list to write down a todo list to catch up on GG.
02:16:25 <boily> meanwhile, Japan lives in a different world. http://youtu.be/Xdzkwo9XA7s#t=12
02:19:01 -!- lexande has joined.
02:19:58 <Taneb> boily, I dunno, some British ads are pretty weird, I just think these are devoid of cultural context
02:21:30 <oerjan> also norwegian ones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df_EdfcFfFg
02:21:33 <boily> we have boring ads. they are internationally known for their uncreativity and deoriginalness.
02:23:37 <boily> it's written Fjordland and it's pronounced “fyoolan”.
02:23:46 <boily> (sorry, no IPA IME on that machine.)
02:23:50 -!- augur has joined.
02:24:30 <oerjan> well the d is silent and the rdl is a retroflex l
02:24:50 * boily gags on retroflexes
02:25:01 <oerjan> stay away from norway and sweden then.
02:25:44 <oerjan> i guess technically both d's are silent, they often are at the end of syllables
02:26:06 <oerjan> while r+dental = retroflex is a regular phonological process
02:27:08 <oerjan> (sometimes even across words)
02:27:30 <oerjan> well i guess a french speaker won't find that particularly weird.
02:27:32 <boily> what was that verb again, quaver?
02:27:57 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia! not for long. my mattress is trying to seduce me.
02:28:10 * boily quavers in fear at Norwegian.
02:28:34 * boily reflexively mapoles at oerjan in self-defense
02:29:03 * oerjan calmly swats boily -----###
02:29:20 * boily is put in a cozy coma
02:29:31 <boily> 'night all! be back tomorrow!
02:29:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: NOCTURNAL UNRETROFLEXIVE CHICKEN).
02:29:46 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:30:43 <oerjan> lesson 386: don't remind people they should be sleeping when you want them to stay.
02:31:46 <oerjan> hm in afterthought that was a rather lousy attempt at thinking of a random number.
02:32:18 <quintopia> no worries, he'll be back tomorrow while i'm at work
02:41:19 <Taneb> Does python 2 have anything similar to Haskell's Data.List.nub?
02:45:51 <ion> taneb: Do you need to preserve the order? You could convert to a set.
02:46:06 <Taneb> ion, that is one option
02:46:16 <Taneb> I think a better option in this case is realised I don't actually need to
02:46:41 <ion> Or perhaps an OrderedDict with dummy values.
03:00:30 <HackEgo> soncoin thogiccoin niccoin mieldinginheacoin baggramsendercoin roculicoin renamocoin anycoin dnvcoin autcoin entcoin volungcoin beltinycoin kipcoin unvuchcoin hexcoin pascoin amothecoin nouvenbanjcoin dimefticoin
03:00:37 <kmc> oh, /me forgot what nub does
03:00:58 <copumpkin> we need to get kmc sucked back into haskell
03:04:23 <HackEgo> ruicoin difyinguecoin catcoin lekitcoin blouxcoin bioulcoin bildesiscoin homcoin bam1281coin sylcoin codecoin isockcoin alighcoin sientacoin zentercoin burgcoin hsemcoin gesankcoin tinycoin poundedcoin
03:06:04 <kmc> another fun thing about the programs compiled to use no registers (besides the fact that they don't use registers) is that almost all data is stored as pointers to code
03:06:41 <kmc> and many of the pointers to code live inside code
03:11:29 <quintopia> what's the face-first sledding event called
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03:21:34 <kmc> wikipedia says 'tis
03:21:54 <kmc> luge is butt-first
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04:08:54 <HackEgo> graysixcoin avitantcoin codecoin velatefuchcoin whenemcoin eniguocoin illcoin lafferecoin 988582.1coin anoisccoin allycoin chlunkcoin torthejmcoin rsthamcoin ethcoin lioncoin mourgcoin dotcoin theocoin reactcoin
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04:27:42 <Gracenotes> help. my vim muscle memory is useless now that I got a radial head fracture and can only use my left hand
04:28:00 <kmc> what happened?
04:28:43 <Gracenotes> fell on an outstretched hand when going downhill forwards fast turned into going downhills sideways fast
04:29:20 <kmc> sorry to hear it
04:29:32 <oerjan> oh wait radial head fractures have nothing to do with the head
04:29:53 * kmc was similarly confused
04:30:03 <Gracenotes> so in 2-3 weeks my vim-fu will be more powerful than ever before
04:30:15 <Bike> note to self: stop assuming brain damage
04:30:20 <Gracenotes> yeah... it is confusing... broken elbow though
04:30:42 <Gracenotes> (or always assume brain damage, just to be safe?)
04:31:04 <oerjan> always aim for the head
04:32:12 * oerjan subtle checks Gracenotes for zombie symptoms
04:33:48 <oerjan> wait i shouldn't be speaking i have a zombie tooth from another bike accident.
04:34:42 <kmc> Gracenotes: that's just enough time to learn Left-Handed Dvorak
04:35:20 <Gracenotes> hah. then it will be impossible to switch to two-handed Dvorak
04:35:39 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1
04:35:50 <oerjan> clearly what you do is learn left-handed _and_ right-handed dvorak.
04:36:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lkjhgfdsa i wonder why this is set up
04:41:25 <Gracenotes> and it is unforgiving. "Sorry, your program is literally syntactically incomprehensible because you forgot a trailing comma on your array"
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04:56:41 <HackEgo> castyningcoin locodevillcoin lotheccoin tegroscoin ctoncoin facecoin minimacoin metricoin wlicoin xenthingcoin squiessorcoin prefecoin ovenicoin colacoin odynredgrcoin hssadcoin ijtcoin revavecoin wherecoin thratcoin
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05:06:49 <kmc> earlier today I said "there can even be multiple NP algorithms for the same problem which use the cert in different ways"
05:07:24 <kmc> (in a discussion about how having a P algorithm doesn't mean you can find a cert for each NP algorithm)
05:07:32 <kmc> but I wonder if there are any particularly interesting examples of this
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05:19:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primality_certificate describes two different kinds
05:19:49 <oerjan> um a P algorithm for _what_?
05:19:59 <kmc> for the same problem
05:20:30 <Taneb> I have been awake way too long
05:20:40 <Taneb> Actually, only 17 hours
05:20:48 <oerjan> a P algorithm for an NP-complete problem certainly gives you the ability to compute certificates for any NP problem.
05:21:00 <kmc> I didn't say NP-complete.
05:22:06 <kmc> for example compositeness is in NP, with certificate being the factorization, and compositeness is in P (AKS test), but AKS doesn't give you a factoring algorithm (which is believed to not be in P)
05:22:07 <Bike> are there sets of equivalent problems known to be in NP but not NP-compltee
05:22:10 <oerjan> Taneb: wait aren't you sleeping already
05:22:26 <Taneb> I really really should be
05:22:29 <kmc> Bike: what do you mean by "sets of equivalent problems"
05:22:52 <Bike> i dunno. you can "reduce" np-complete problems to other np-complete problems, right
05:23:23 <kmc> (you can reduce any problem in np to any np-complete problem)
05:23:37 <oerjan> Bike: i think the set equivalent to graph isomorphism gets some study for example, that's believed to be between P and NP-complete (but not proved)
05:24:43 <oerjan> not even proved conditionally on P != NP, although there are some problems that are
05:24:48 <kmc> cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_isomorphism_problem#GI-complete_and_GI-hard_problems
05:25:17 <^v> anyone made an IRC bot in brainfuck yet?
05:25:33 <^v> C2BF is cheating btw
05:25:51 <kmc> google says yes
05:27:06 <oerjan> kmc: btw iirc there's an NP-complete problem related to factorization: whether a number has a factor in an interval
05:27:45 <oerjan> although that's mostly due to the possibility of large number of factors, even if you know a complete prime factorization it's still hard
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05:29:40 <oerjan> (it's like similar to subset sum)
05:30:03 <kmc> oerjan: interesting
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05:30:52 <kmc> it's hard even if you know a factorization because you have to check it? and search it?
05:37:40 <kmc> and can you explain how it's like subset sum
05:38:09 <oerjan> it's hard because a hard part of the problem is, like with subset sum, to choose how many of which prime factors to include to get the product in the right range.
05:38:30 <oerjan> so after you've got a prime factorization, it's basically "subset product"
05:39:13 <kmc> oh, it's not whether the number has a *prime* factor in range
05:39:16 <kmc> that makes a lot more sense
05:39:29 <oerjan> subset sum requires exact equality.
05:40:10 <kmc> subset sum and subset product should be equivalent right? by the power of logarithms or something
05:40:35 <kmc> well how small is the range allowed to be for this factor-in-range problem?
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05:40:53 <kmc> oh but if it's too small then you can just do trial division.
05:40:57 <kmc> good morning zzo38
05:40:59 <kmc> how are yoU?
05:41:12 <oerjan> oh i guess it's more like knapsack.
05:41:15 <zzo38> I am OK but is not morning time in here
05:41:36 <Taneb> It is rapidly approaching morning time here and I have forgotten to sleep
05:42:25 <Taneb> Live esolang creation in 14 hours
05:42:59 <Taneb> Alas, it will not be streamed
05:43:08 <oerjan> kmc: the problem with logarithms is you cannot get them to be integers in a way that works for this problem
05:43:10 <kmc> do you know what kind you will create?
05:43:14 <kmc> oerjan: ah
05:43:20 <Taneb> I have a sort of vague idea
05:43:45 <oerjan> (if every logarithm is an integer to some base, then the original number is a prime power)
05:44:03 <oerjan> *logarithm of a prime factor
05:45:22 <zzo38> I don't care if it is streamed, but will it be written down? I would like to see what is written down for such thing, if you have any.
05:46:58 <Taneb> It will be recorded
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06:21:59 <Sgeo> If I want to pay for a game, but I don't trust them to handle my financial data securely, but they offer a way to pay via check, having my bank mail a check should be safe, right?
06:22:49 <Bike> what if they erase the number with lasers and make you pay a million dolalrs
06:23:02 <kmc> checks in the US banking system are like the least secure thing in the world
06:23:12 <kmc> every check contains all the information you need to withdraw any amount of money from that account.
06:23:34 <Bike> um kmc, i think you'll find my checks are printed on weird paper,
06:23:44 <kmc> the banking system is not really based on secrets and authentication; rather it's based on fraud detection, liability, and rollback
06:23:59 <pikhq_> Bike: Which is not even a requirement.
06:23:59 <Bike> wait, where the hell is my checkbook
06:24:10 <Bike> sgeo did you steal it
06:24:17 <pikhq_> You can stick the routing info on a fucking cow and it's a valid check.
06:24:19 <kmc> Sgeo: you can buy a prepaid debit card at a convenience store
06:24:32 <Sgeo> kmc: was thinking of doing that until I noticed the 'pay by check' option
06:25:00 <Sgeo> I don't think the company is evil. They're just incompetent. If that matters. (They store passwords as plaintext for example0
06:25:17 <Bike> i've never written a check anyway, i just enter a ten digit number and then a three digit number into a net form
06:25:28 <Sgeo> Literally 1995-era security
06:25:38 <Bike> the paychecks i got before were labeled with something saying not to accept them if they weren't in green ink
06:26:06 <kmc> hey unix had crypt() in 1995
06:27:19 <Bike> yeah sgeo said "1995-era" though.
06:28:16 <Sgeo> $24 for 12 months of being able to have a 3d avatar, yay
06:28:25 <pikhq_> Yep, crypt() was in System V.
06:28:36 <pikhq_> Apparently Enigma-based though?
06:29:07 <Bike> i hope this means you had to hook up an enigma machine
06:29:50 <kmc> traditional crypt(1) is Enigma-based. i don't think crypt(3) ever was, but could be mistaken
06:30:15 <Bike> no entry for crypt in section 1 :(
06:30:33 <Sgeo> I still have no idea what the sections are
06:30:52 <newsham> section 1 is commands, seciton 3 is lib functions
06:31:05 <Bike> Sgeo: it's in man man.
06:31:58 <newsham> HISTORY A rotor-based crypt() function appeared in Version 6 AT&T UNIX. The curâ rent style crypt() first appeared in Version 7 AT&T UNIX.
06:32:17 <kmc> newsham: oh
06:32:30 <newsham> 7th ed is aprox 1977 or so
06:32:37 <pikhq_> So it was Enigma-based.
06:32:49 <Bike> "ENOSYS The crypt() function was not implemented, probably because of U.S.A. export restrictions." that's a pretty good error code
06:34:51 <newsham> -rw-r--r-- 1 bin 1025 7579 May 4 1979 crypt.c
06:36:11 <newsham> ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub//mirrors/minnie.tuhs.org/PDP-11/Trees/V7/usr/src/libc/gen/crypt.c
06:36:45 <Bike> wait, when's the epoch again
06:36:49 <lifthrasiir> memfrob(3) is intended as a migration measure from very old crypt(3).
06:37:01 <newsham> epoch is currently jan 1, 1970.
06:37:19 <newsham> originally it was different, and they had changed it a few times before they settled on the recent one
06:37:30 <Bike> oh for a sec i thought it was 1979
06:37:38 <Taneb> Why did they decide on 1970
06:38:19 <Bike> oh nice, this code uses 'register', i've never seen that outside of knuth
06:38:49 <Bike> ...actually, it just says "register i,j,k;" with no type specifier. is it int by default? i don't know k&r
06:39:01 <pikhq_> That's true of C in general.
06:39:11 <pikhq_> "register i;" is valid, if distasteful, C11.
06:40:27 <newsham> ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub//mirrors/minnie.tuhs.org/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Dennis_v3/Readme.nsys
06:40:30 <pikhq_> Taneb: 1970 was a clean year number close to the origin of Unix.
06:40:31 <kmc> and just "i;" is still valid yes?
06:40:32 <newsham> talks about the epoch changes a little
06:40:50 <pikhq_> IIRC C99 changed that.
06:41:03 <shachaf> isn't it, as a top-level declaration?
06:41:50 <pikhq_> As a top level declaration.
06:42:09 <Bike> can i just do 'auto i;' then? this is important
06:42:19 <pikhq_> Yeah, that is very much valid.
06:42:25 <kmc> can't declare auto variables at top level though
06:42:44 <pikhq_> I was assuming "in a function".
06:42:49 <Bike> sure, i meant at not-toplevel.
06:43:10 <zzo38> Do you know how to pattern match on tree structures?
06:43:27 <kmc> zzo38: uh, sometimes, what's the context here?
06:43:56 <zzo38> kmc: In this case it is SQL, although I can write some parts in C if necessary to do so
06:44:09 <kmc> how are you storing trees in SQL?
06:44:32 <zzo38> One record for each node, and one field tells the ID of the parent node.
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06:46:39 <kmc> and what sorts of patterns do you want to match?
06:47:52 <zzo38> Things like, if one node has the value 1 and any of its children have value 5, then match all nodes that come after the one with value 5, is one example
06:48:13 <kmc> that sounds like something the new SQLite thingy could do, yeah
06:48:30 <zzo38> Or I want to match nodes of a particular type within a node having a particular value
06:48:43 <zzo38> And then there are other things too, and then I want to do replacement on them too
06:50:17 <Bike> has anyone here written a sigbovik paper
06:50:37 <newsham> when will iso or ieee standardize brainfuck?
06:50:50 <newsham> and finally put an end to all the BF splintering
06:51:21 <kmc> i'm holding out for MIL-STD brainfuck
06:51:48 <zzo38> Do you know how you would do this kinds of pattern matching? (Even if it isn't done in SQL)
06:54:28 <newsham> zzo83: in ieee-sql or milstd sql?
06:55:47 <zzo38> newsham: In SQLite.
06:58:31 <newsham> select children from parent where childrens parents are one and children have 5 or are like near something with a five;
07:00:10 <zzo38> What is "like near something with a five"?
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07:40:34 <zzo38> I figured out the command to use a WITH clause to renumber based on the other ordering: with sub1(num,res) as (select 1,min(word) from table1 union all select num+1,min(word) from sub1 join table1 where word>res limit (select count() from table1)) select * from sub1;
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07:44:02 <atriq> Well, I (Taneb) am still awake. And now I am on campus.
07:44:23 <atriq> The internet seems to be not working, at least for http and ssh
07:46:09 <atriq> Dunno, don't particularly care
07:46:33 <atriq> It seems to be able to connect to at least google, reddit, and wikipedia
07:46:45 <atriq> But the connection seems slow
07:46:51 <shachaf> i didn't know those all supported irc
07:47:22 <atriq> (all those for http)
07:47:55 <atriq> The connection to the university's website seems stable, which would make sense seeing as I am in the university
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07:52:04 <fizzie> @tell boily I updated them things.
07:52:05 <Sgeo> Whatever happened to that small Linux machine?
07:52:16 <Sgeo> That also acted like a gaming device
07:53:08 <fizzie> Arguably, that's a small Android machine, even if there's some Linux in it.
07:53:55 <Sgeo> Portable device
07:53:55 <pikhq> It's got Linux. Userspace isn't Linus's responsibility. :)
07:54:07 <fizzie> @tell oerjan That's more to do with the 256 than the "two small-ish primes", though.
07:54:09 <kmc> Android can take credit for making "GNU/Linux" an actually relevant distinction
07:54:22 <Sgeo> As in, handheld device
07:56:55 <Sgeo> Ok, it costs a lot
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07:57:08 <Sgeo> Much more than, say, a PS Vita
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07:58:59 <atriq> Interestingly, I can browse the web on my tablet via wifi just fine
07:59:26 <pikhq> I imagine you pay a lot for the lower production run.
08:00:50 <fizzie> Google should have an IRC-based search interface.
08:01:34 <atriq> I wonder if any of the breakfast buying places are open
08:01:52 <Sgeo> Does 7-Eleven count as a breakfast buying place?
08:02:04 <atriq> Sgeo, I don't think there are any of those near here
08:03:27 <fizzie> Sweden, Norway and Denmark all have some 7-11's, but Finland does not. :/
08:03:57 <fizzie> "For a time in the early 1980s Slurpees were sold in 7-Eleven stores in Sweden, but nowadays Slush Puppies are sold instead." Thank you, Wikipedia, for this fact.
08:05:19 <kmc> 7-Eleven in Japan sells 4 liter plastic bottles of liquor
08:05:46 <shachaf> i live next to a 7-Eleven® store, but i have never consumed a Slurpee® frozen beverage
08:06:04 <shachaf> not even on the 11th of july
08:06:43 <shachaf> i live in the united states
08:06:44 <fizzie> "Slurpees, however, returned to Japan at some 7-Eleven locations in 2011, although the Japanese Slurpee machines are meant to be operated differently from other Slurpee machines."
08:06:53 <fizzie> I didn't really know Slurpee® was such a thing.
08:07:46 <fizzie> Also I knew there was a thing called Big Gulp through pop-cultural osmosis, but I didn't realize it was a 7-Eleven thing.
08:08:13 <atriq> I did not even know that
08:09:40 <fizzie> "The Big Gulp, Super Big Gulp, Double Gulp and Gulp are genetically engineered to quench even the most diabolical thirst." I guess that last one is smaller than the regular one?
08:11:56 <fizzie> A Super Big Gulp is 1.3 litres?! (I suppose I shouldn't be surprised here.)
08:15:01 <shachaf> is it just the name for a cup, or also a beverage?
08:15:35 <Sgeo> Slurpee is a beverage-like thing
08:16:41 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, the Big Gulp is both the refillable cup and six different flavours of soda.
08:16:48 <fizzie> Well, maybe more than six.
08:16:55 <shachaf> kmc: wasn't that the thing you had that one time?
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08:19:21 <kmc> oh yes I did buy some variety of Big Gulp in your presence once
08:19:50 <kmc> it may have been a Super Big Gulp
08:20:12 <kmc> rip Double Gulp
08:20:13 <shachaf> i don't know which size, i just remember the cup
08:20:18 <kmc> that one was almost 2 liters
08:20:59 <fizzie> Google says Double Gulp is "only" 50 oz, which would (narrowly) round down to 1, being approximately 1.47868 litres.
08:21:08 <kmc> it used to be 64 oz though
08:21:48 <shachaf> fizzie: whoa, did you convert that to litres in your head
08:22:02 <fizzie> I converted it to litres in my Google. :/
08:22:17 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever seen a single drink bigger than 0.6 l (20 wizards of oz) from food places in Finland. (Discounting things like a 1 l pitcher that's clearly designed for more than one person, since you don't drink out of it.)
08:22:43 <fizzie> (Also I had already written a "wizard of oz" "joke" there several comments ago, I just kept being interrupted.)
08:25:08 <kmc> maybe you don't drink out of it
08:25:34 <shachaf> oh, i think i considered purchasing some Slurpee® or Big Gulp® flavored beverage this one time
08:25:41 <shachaf> but then i looked for an ingredients list and couldn't find it
08:26:34 <fizzie> They serve it in something almost exactly like this http://www.hiwtc.com/photo/products/22/15/67/156709.jpg and while I'm sure one could drink from it, it doesn't really look like it's the intended porpoise.
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17:49:55 <fizzie> According to the telephone number lookup service, I got a call from someone called "Test 3". (Possibly the third child of a mad scientist?)
18:01:16 <zzo38> This issue of 2600 mentions someone who has a problem with a rootkit that stores self-extracting copies of itself in the hard drive, memory RAM disks, and BIOS.
18:03:34 <zzo38> I don't even know if it is true, but apparently "no one has ever heard of anything like it". Apparently if you try to install any version of Windows you get a stripped-down Windows NT 2008 running nothing but BitTorrent, if you try to install any version of Linux you get a corrupted version of ISOLINUX, and if you try to install any version of DOS you get a corrupted version of FreeDOS.
18:04:42 <zzo38> It mentions the autoexec.bat file containing pages and pages of simple "for" and "case" blocks. But, DOS doesn't have "case" blocks.
18:07:08 <zzo38> Do you know anything about this?
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18:08:52 <kmc> sounds like bs
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18:50:42 <quintopia> i would be very impressed if such a rootkit existed
19:06:55 <kmc> what do you mean "if you try to install any version of Linux you get a corrupted version of ISOLINUX"
19:07:00 <kmc> ISOLINUX isn't a distribution
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20:05:00 <spiette> http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack&page=1
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20:59:30 <impomatic> Is anyone here is Austria? There's a Core War event happening this weekend...
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21:32:49 <HackEgo> dyrcoin dimecoin thenamecoin sorincoin nutivecoin alagecoin sanshacoin lazzocoin gazocoin surrocoin aaaaaaaacoin []coin pumcoin sociacoin rwjcoin blanicoin bloocoin filaxcoin tedcoin maucoin
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21:36:44 <ion> aaaaaaaacoin http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/AAAAAAAAA!
21:38:25 <kmc> HackEgo: nice lag
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22:49:57 <lambdabot> fizzie said 14h 57m 52s ago: I updated them things.
22:50:10 <boily> fizziello. thanks!
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22:55:45 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 1m 37s ago: That's more to do with the 256 than the "two small-ish primes", though.
22:56:28 <oerjan> ah good spam, i was wondering if agora was back in a lull or if my email wasn't working
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22:58:32 <^v> im comparing a constant fixed width string
22:58:52 <^v> in brainfuck
22:58:53 <ion> An excellent video, but wat @ the spreadsheet thing. Solving 256·320^(n−1) s = 10^100 years would have been a bit simpler. http://youtu.be/F1CddzgVW14
22:59:42 <^v> im looking for an efficient way to see if a range of memory is zero
22:59:43 <boily> oerjan: is “pålegg” a real Norwegian word?
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23:00:18 <oerjan> boily: yes, with at least two different meanings
23:01:03 <boily> oerjan: I am intrigued.
23:01:05 <oerjan> the most common one being anything you put on top of a slice of bread, i.e. ~ en:condiments iirc
23:01:27 <boily> oerjan: that is something I can find myself agreeing with.
23:01:43 <^v> i know i can just have a bunch of "x==0"s
23:01:44 <ais523> oerjan: en:condiments mostly refers to things like salt, sugar, pepper
23:01:44 <oerjan> except i think en:condiments is rather wider in meaning
23:01:52 <^v> but that requires inversion
23:02:26 <oerjan> anyway, it's on top of a slice of bread, which is a very norwegian thing to do.
23:02:29 <^v> and i only have 1 open value left of the string
23:03:42 <boily> ^v: the equality comparisons take up too much space?
23:04:01 <oerjan> ok en:garnish also overlaps, but isn't quite there either.
23:04:13 <boily> hm. mmmmh.... eeeeeh...
23:04:14 <^v> well not really
23:04:24 <oerjan> boily: "i recall wrong" which may confuse you on the grounds that i made it up on the spot
23:04:43 <boily> oerjan: tdphbirns.
23:05:07 <oerjan> i don't understand, but i still think a touché is called for.
23:05:21 <^v> ":brainf^vck"(-:>)>[-]<<[<]>> is what i use to get the difference and zero the end
23:05:26 <boily> ais523: traditional Montréal condiments include: chopped onions, coleslaw and prepared mustard.
23:06:53 * oerjan guesses "that did perhaps help but i'm really not sure"
23:07:29 * boily decretes oerjan to be this chännel's Official Psychic Person.
23:08:51 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
23:09:14 <ais523> ^v: what language is that?
23:09:30 <ais523> it looks suspiciously like a BF variant
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23:09:57 <^v> ais523, its BF but i use macros
23:10:10 <^v> http://puu.sh/73Kiy.png
23:10:16 <^v> ER, wrong pic
23:10:23 <^v> http://puu.sh/73HGe.png
23:11:05 <oerjan> http://no.wiktionary.org/wiki/p%C3%A5legg lists the two other meanings as well: (2) an addition, in particular a salary or price raise (3) a bureaucratic order
23:11:08 <^v> "Derp"(+:>) will load "Derp" into memory
23:11:27 <oerjan> not sure what would be proper english for (3)
23:11:42 <^v> it puts each char's byte as :
23:11:56 <boily> oerjan: so in Norway salaries are slices of bread? fascinating.
23:12:02 <^v> so +123>+364> etc
23:12:22 <^v> and +1337 translates to 1337 pluses
23:12:42 <^v> it helps me keep my sanity
23:12:50 <^v> if your wondering, im making an IRC bot
23:12:58 <oerjan> boily: hey "matpakke" is important!
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23:14:07 <boily> oerjan: after seasons and seasons of watched anime, I couldn't agree more.
23:14:27 <oerjan> the page helpfully has a german translation, "Auflage"
23:14:59 <boily> I suspect common linguistic roots.
23:16:04 <oerjan> en.wiktionary suggests "condition" for Auflage, which doesn't really fit too well.
23:16:34 <boily> condi{tion,ment}. the edit distance isn't that far!
23:16:52 * oerjan tries to read the german one
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23:17:57 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure but i don't think _any_ of the meanings in de.wiktionary fit.
23:18:13 <boily> nope. they don't fit.
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23:18:36 <oerjan> the first would be closest, but...
23:20:16 <oerjan> as in, you _could_ get a pålegg from a court, but that's not the only possible source.
23:20:37 <boily> as long as Sriracha and hoisin sauce can both be considered påleggifiable, I am happy.
23:22:30 <oerjan> well they _might_. they're not precisely the most intended referent.
23:22:49 <boily> right. something something eggs and salmon and dill something.
23:22:55 <oerjan> cheese, bologna, liver paté, that sort of thing.
23:23:08 <oerjan> (which happens to be samples from my fridge.)
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23:24:17 <oerjan> also strawberry jam, mackerel in tomato sauce, and cod caviar.
23:24:29 <boily> uhm. strawberry jam, with all of that?
23:24:41 * boily is mildly distressed at the idea.
23:24:43 <oerjan> rarely on the same slice, no
23:24:50 <boily> oh. thanks fungot.
23:24:50 <fungot> boily: ( deretardations removing the obviously ugly design of a module system is
23:25:08 <boily> fungot: deretardation, as in... progress?
23:25:09 <fungot> boily: i'll probably stop programming the day i will hit the end of the program. it turns i broke both fnord chips, or then it's the top level
23:25:30 <boily> `addquote <fungot> boily: i'll probably stop programming the day i will hit the end of the program.
23:25:31 <fungot> boily: mut ku ois pakko antaa' would be much better company. i'm constantly trying to extract what should be opened to use define-interface and define-structure in scheme48? i see a " 3"
23:25:31 <oerjan> i recall trying out jam and peanut butter, back when i ate that and wanted to try this typical american thing.
23:25:32 <HackEgo> 1168) <fungot> boily: i'll probably stop programming the day i will hit the end of the program.
23:26:00 <oerjan> fungot: please stay safely within your endless loop twh
23:26:01 <fungot> oerjan: but keep in mind i still don't see ( perhaps for performance reasons
23:26:21 <boily> balancing parentheses impacts fungot's performance.
23:26:21 <fungot> boily: 10 seconds?" s: " lemme check... 15 minutes
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23:26:52 <oerjan> fizzie: have you put ( traps i fungot's code to cause em to halt? how evil.
23:26:53 <fungot> oerjan: sorry if i can't get gauche to build under ubuntu when fnord is not a ' good macro system'; it is a simple stack based machine
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23:27:38 <oerjan> wtf am i drooling on my t-shirt
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23:50:29 <boily> AAAAAA I HAVE ONION JUICE IN MY EYES AAAAAAAAAAAH!
23:56:43 <oerjan> i suddenly wonder if the onion ever did an article about that.
23:57:36 <oerjan> also this leaves me confident in my habit of never cooking any meal more complicated than frozen pizza.
23:59:29 * oerjan helpfully fills the saucepan with water and empties it onto boily's face ===/^^^\
00:02:13 <ion> boily: Try naga jolokia next. That’s fun.
00:05:45 <oerjan> seems like the bhut of many practical jokes.
00:08:04 <oerjan> such crunchy goodness. but bad for teeth.
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00:08:48 <lexande> oerjan: is frozen pizza cheap in .no?
00:09:03 <oerjan> no food is cheap in .no.
00:09:23 <lexande> in .uk frozen pizza was approximately the cheapest food, i could get a frozen pizza that weighed a pound and cost a pound
00:09:41 <lexande> here in .us frozen pizza is annoyingly expensive, buying prepared pizza is actually cheaper!
00:10:16 <oerjan> ok norway is not _that_ bad.
00:10:22 <boily> frozen pizza is around CAD 7.
00:10:43 <lexande> i can get a decent slice of hot prepared pizza for $1
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00:11:17 <lexande> well, the place offering this near my house closes at midnights, though others elsewhere in the city are open all hours
00:12:41 <oerjan> iirc the pizzas i buy are about $10, but they're not the cheapest, the cheapest don't get me full...
00:12:53 <shachaf> i heard norwegian pizzas are v. expensive
00:13:05 <shachaf> i think the price i heard was ~$30
00:13:26 <oerjan> that would be in a restaurant.
00:14:11 <oerjan> i think the small size is cheaper than that in the restaurant i like to go to, but i rarely buy pizza there.
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00:19:35 <Sgeo> Is vim particularly likbut tather know-and-peck?
00:19:37 <Sgeo> n't really touch-type, but rather know-and-peck?
00:19:44 <Sgeo> Hmm, the gibberish that just got typed in didn't go through, according to the logs?
00:19:55 <fungot> Sgeo: then how about assigning ' fnord'. what does. :d
00:20:01 <oerjan> that looked pretty gibberish to me
00:20:25 <Sgeo> It.... seems like it took a while for anything to go from my client to channel
00:20:40 <oerjan> or to glogbot, perhaps
00:21:04 <Sgeo> fungot took 11 seconds to respond to me?
00:21:04 <fungot> Sgeo: i guess i will do when i get to go!! i'm a genius! let me know
00:21:21 <Sgeo> oh, more than that
00:21:24 <fungot> oerjan: it could potentially be awesome. gatech, caltech, berkeley and a few other pessimal algos too
00:21:32 <Sgeo> Also, what I intended to say in the first place:
00:21:47 <Sgeo> Is vim particularly likely to be bad if I don't really touch-type, but rather know-and-peck?
00:23:31 <oerjan> how does that apply to vim as opposed to any other editor?
00:24:01 <oerjan> muscle memory is important for all editors, surely
00:24:02 <Sgeo> Because vim apparently encourages keeping hands on the home row, which I don't normally do while typing?
00:24:04 <^v> so any halp with moi brainfuck problem
00:24:18 <Sgeo> I have muscle memory, it just doesn't particularly involve the home row as much as genuine touch-typing
00:24:39 <Sgeo> It's Sgeo-brand typing, not standard-brand typing
00:25:50 <oerjan> i might chastise you, but my touch typing has slipped and my fingers rarely stay stable on the home row.
00:26:19 <Sgeo> I think Bike wanted to see a video of me typing
00:26:24 <Sgeo> Still have yet to make tht
00:26:33 <oerjan> also as someone who uses vim _without_ using the hjkl commands much, i might not be one to ask.
00:26:58 <shachaf> "home row" is asdf hjkl anyway
00:27:06 <oerjan> (i use them in visual mode, but only because gvim has a bug that makes arrows not work there)
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00:44:16 <boily> *♪ sound of a not quite exactly brillant idea suddenly appearing ♪*
00:44:29 <boily> I should include that in the next Paranoïa campaign.
00:44:52 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. how's the dnding going?
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01:03:56 * boily pokes a random Norwegian, just to see if Freenode's back to normal...
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01:14:12 <zzo38> boily: Sorry, there was a connection error on my computer.
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01:19:00 <oerjan> the random norwegian was reading a web page about a proposed wikimedia TOS change
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01:23:14 <^v> the only way to make brainfuck not make your eyes bleed is to convert it to whitespace
01:24:49 <boily> then it's the paper that bleeds.
01:25:19 <Slereah> You can turn BF to ascii art
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04:19:33 <zzo38> The recursive queries in SQL kind of resemble the "for-input" loop in the Wheat esolang.
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04:24:44 <zzo38> Sort of as if it is a Wheat program that has an implicit "for-input" loop with no other "input" commands in it. It isn't actually like that, but that is something a bit similar!
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04:36:35 <zzo38> WITH `SEQUENCE`(`DATA`) AS (SELECT '0' UNION ALL SELECT `DATA` || REPLACE(REPLACE(REPLACE(`DATA`,'0','-'),'1','0'),'-','1') FROM `SEQUENCE`) SELECT * FROM `SEQUENCE`;
04:37:50 <zzo38> Can you recognize it?
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04:48:46 <Bike> https://24.media.tumblr.com/abfd0b7842bb2e9eb96ad5570a85376f/tumblr_n1bwvrkMj51qjr3c0o1_500.jpg up for secrets
05:05:39 <lexande> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ilex-press/kickstarter-succeed-first-time-a-guide-to-crowdfun only 25% of target
05:06:46 * ^v pokes everyone
05:06:55 <newsham> twitch plays microcorruption anyone?
05:07:01 <^v> who wants to see my brainfuck irc bot
05:07:22 <newsham> ^v that sentence has some unusual alternate parses
05:08:36 <^v> well here it is http://pastebin.com/kUBUb4ps
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05:17:05 <zzo38> Hopefully you can understand what this SQL program means. (If not, I can explain it.)
05:21:41 <quintopi1> oerjan: do you know how to solve a jigsaw puzzle (aka wang tile puzzle) in polynomial time?
05:26:16 <oerjan> i'd expect that to be NP-complete
05:27:07 <oerjan> given that the infinite generalization is turing complete, and i don't know any explicit reason why it wouldn't be
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05:27:24 <oerjan> and it's obviously in NP for a finite setup
05:28:24 <zzo38> How can I make a tree pattern matching program in C which compiles into SQL?
05:29:36 <zzo38> It can already be done in SQL but since such pattern matching codes can be long, I want to provide a function which can compile a tree pattern code into an SQL code
05:29:47 <zzo38> (Or else do just do it entirely in C)
05:34:05 <zzo38> Maybe it is faster/more efficient to do entirely in C, but maybe it is better to do it in SQL, or maybe in a combination of SQL and C; I don't know what way.
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05:36:19 <quintopi1> oerjan: it is NP-complete. i looked it up finally. but i was confused because some author claimed it was in P in some publisher's weekly article.
05:36:36 <quintopi1> and i knew the infinite case was undecidable
05:36:52 <quintopi1> which seemed wrong, but i assume i'm wrong first until other evidence arises
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06:04:32 <Sgeo> Did I just buy an entire collection of Worms games on Steam? I believe I just did
06:04:49 <Sgeo> I already had W:A... I think I saw Worms Blast in there and some memory of it made me want it
06:05:18 <elliott> worms blast is literally puzzle bobble...
06:06:27 <Bike> damn, if only i had some kind of influence on my purchasing habits
06:07:06 <Sgeo> Oh, that's the same as Frozen Bubble?
06:07:38 <Sgeo> elliott: well, at least there's some other games in here that aren't the normal Worms games, but are distinctly Wormy?
06:07:51 <Sgeo> Isn't there one where the main game mode is ... something to do with forts?
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06:08:34 <Sgeo> Doesn't seem to be in this package
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06:10:39 <kmc> oh USPS package tracking, you are so useless
06:10:52 <HackEgo> concacoin gibblercoin pogoncoin shogocoin gason-of-unbuicoin wiicoin sorielcoin comcoin dimecoin caucoin con-of-unbecoin fibracoin minkcoin prefcoin tlwncoin notheriacoin bitwiserticcoin talcoin smuehcoin chineilcoin
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06:11:25 <HackEgo> cosmitycoin surgasonalipticcoin randacoin gayakucoin bam12coin hayacoin wilsecoin salcoin iscabcomcoin flangcoin ptacoin lo'scoin syndcoin mureheatespacseaucoin dorphinecoin botativecoin superpcoin salagonacoin indencoin scriptcoin
06:12:28 <Sgeo> Also, the 3d games aren't in here :(
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06:13:01 <Sgeo> Oh, there is one
06:13:56 <Sgeo> Does only W:A support recording games?
06:19:49 <oerjan> only cellular automaton games hth
06:22:22 <zzo38> Do you have C codes with stuff like this? if(*rule=='#' && (rule++,!is_weaving)) return;
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06:23:50 <zzo38> How common are a negative array index access in a C program?
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07:44:32 <Sgeo> Wonder if it would be unethical to buy a Worlds VIP
07:44:42 <Sgeo> Considering that Worlds, Inc. is pretty much a patent troll
07:48:30 <Bike> you know what they say.
07:49:55 <Bike> i said, "you know what they say."
07:49:58 <HackEgo> dyncoin brcnicoin compliticoin prakircoin this=thacoin pipenacoin anousercoin intrencoin destacoin glaurcoin dubicoin bengecoin locacoin funderlcoin agelcoin madnesetlamblecoin ruitcoin concoin biiecoin nandocoin
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08:26:45 <HackEgo> sotacoin confcoin soutcoin bachycoin fttcoin simputcoin bligaracecoin fuelcoin dececoin memcoin puzafecoin remcoin ///coin tre-calcoin delmincoin sanncoin iincoin frapkcoin cheddainfursecoin minaturcoin
08:37:28 <kmc> http://vill.ee/eye/
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08:43:40 -!- kmc has set topic: ...we came in? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | Isn't this where....
08:45:43 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
08:45:44 <fungot> kmc: so that's only 1600. just didn't find anything out about it
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09:32:17 <ion> Notice the built-in cigarette lighter and the ashtray just left of the light pen. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SAGE_console.jpeg
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09:53:10 <olsner> ion: huh, I guess smoking was amazingly much more normal in the past
09:53:49 <olsner> ... and you can't have your radar people go on smoke breaks and leave the monitors unmonitored
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09:58:29 <kmc> if you have to use that thing for real, smoking is definitely the right choice
09:58:46 <kmc> because you need to be calm and alert and you're probably about to die anyway.
09:59:26 * kmc has seen that very object in person, at the Computer History Museum
10:03:02 <olsner> if you have to use that, aren't you in some bunker deep inside a secret mountain in the middle of nowhere?
10:07:48 <kmc> well SAGE predates the Cheyenne Mountain bunker by some 10 years
10:08:37 <kmc> they were located in above-ground buildings that are hardened but probably not indestructible
10:09:54 <fizzie> Aw, I was assuming some obscure game console based on the file name.
10:10:22 <fizzie> (Are there any game consoles with integrated ashtrays?)
10:12:22 <kmc> the SABRE airline booking system was conceived after the president of American Airlines happened to be sitting on a flight next to an IBM salesman who'd just worked on SAGE
10:19:14 <olsner> "The result was that the aircraft could deliver passengers faster than their existing booking systems could sell tickets for them."
10:19:17 <olsner> (about the preceding booking system, the Magnetronic Reservisor, after introducing jet planes)
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12:06:16 <FreeFull_> I wish there was a way to transfer panes from tmux server 7 to 8
12:06:33 <FreeFull_> I want to test out tmux 8 but can't while 7 is running
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12:58:29 <Sgeo> Twitch Plays Dwarf Fortress?
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13:58:33 <nyuszika7h> transfer them to screen first, then to a new tmux
13:58:40 <nyuszika7h> make sure the TERM is the same, however
13:58:51 <nyuszika7h> if the TERM in tmux is screen, the TERM in screen should be screen too
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13:59:02 <nyuszika7h> if it's screen-256color, it should be screen-256color in screen too
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14:00:34 <FreeFull> Haven't heard of reptyr before
14:00:53 <FreeFull> Thanks for telling me about it
14:00:54 <nyuszika7h> it rarely likes to break though, so don't risk it if you run important programs
14:01:06 <nyuszika7h> that can't afford being down for a few seconds or mintwesu
14:01:21 <FreeFull> I don't actually have screen installed right now
14:01:43 <FreeFull> I just want to transfer irssi =P
14:02:04 <nyuszika7h> can't you make the new tmux server use another socket
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15:26:48 <zzo38> I have a copy of a key, which fits, and it turns, but fails to lock or unlock the door. I compared it with the original, and it matches, and the original key works. Do you know what is wrong?
15:28:53 <Slereah> How do you know it matches
15:30:57 <zzo38> Because I compared it very carefully
15:31:38 <Slereah> It is possible that a different of a micron might not work
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16:27:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: the usual method is the return the key to where you've had it copied and demand a new copy, but make sure the template you're copying from is an original, not a copy
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17:20:55 <zzo38> Some people say the flippers make a pinball game skillful. That isn't true; while there is skill involved in effectively using the flippers, that isn't what makes the game skilful.
17:21:25 <Slereah> The skill is finding a job to get the money to put inside
17:22:06 <zzo38> Yes, that is what some people say too, but that has nothing to do with a pinball game.
17:23:04 <zzo38> If you own a pinball table, you may not need to put a coin (and if you do, you can get it back).
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18:26:41 <kmc> https://github.com/mame/radiation-hardened-quine
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18:42:58 <oklopol> zzo38: what makes it skillful then?
18:43:45 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of Twitch Plays Pokémon?
18:43:54 <kmc> fungot: what do you think of Twitch Plays Pokémon?
18:43:54 <fungot> kmc: i thought optimistic/ pessimistic concurrency was an implementation that doesn't have to
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19:13:24 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know "Twitch Plays Pokemon", so I don't think of it.
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20:10:40 <kmc> zzo38: do you want to learn of it?
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20:17:09 <lexande> somebody has written on the chalkboard in the maths department "3987^12 + 4365^12 = 4472^12"
20:17:45 <kmc> > 3987^12 + 4365^12 == 4472^12
20:18:00 <Bike> lambdabot: well, fuck you
20:18:01 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
20:18:13 <Bike> lambdabot: nevermind, problem's on my end
20:18:23 <lexande> i mean, clearly it's false since 12 > 2
20:18:38 <kmc> are you sure that 12 > 2
20:18:52 <zzo38> kmc: No I am not much interested at the present time
20:19:38 <kmc> :t ((^), (^^), (**))
20:19:39 <lambdabot> (Floating a2, Fractional a1, Integral b, Integral b1, Num a) => (a -> b -> a, a1 -> b1 -> a1, a2 -> a2 -> a2)
20:19:59 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Bool'
20:20:07 <kmc> `relcome chaiomanot_
20:20:08 <HackEgo> chaiomanot_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:20:25 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:20:58 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `True'
20:20:58 <lambdabot> A data constructor of that name is in scope; did you mean -XDataKinds?
20:20:58 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Tree' (imported from Data.Tree)
20:21:16 <fizzie> `run echo '3987 12^ 4365 12^+ 4472 12^-n' | dc
20:21:17 <HackEgo> 1211886809373872630985912112862690
20:21:29 <chaiomanot_> see lambdabot, you're why i don't like static typing
20:21:34 <fizzie> (I guess that's p. close?)
20:21:43 <Bike> Bool is a type, so it has a kind, not a type. True is a value, so it has a type, not a kind
20:21:57 <shachaf> unless you use DataKinds hth
20:22:00 <chaiomanot_> i know, but :t Bool should return Type, not an error!
20:22:00 <kmc> keeping straight which things are types and which ones aren't is why you don't like static typing?
20:22:08 <Bike> shachaf: look, shut up :(
20:22:10 <kmc> chaiomanot_: it would with dependent types
20:22:24 <kmc> so the problem is that Haskell isn't all the way in the deep end of statically typed :)
20:22:32 <shachaf> Bike: oh, wait, someone was actually getting things mixed up, never mind
20:22:34 <Bike> i hear making type a type makes all hell break loose
20:22:45 <Bike> something about barbers maybe
20:22:50 <kmc> yeah it's dodgy
20:22:57 <kmc> usually you have like Set : Set1 : Set2 : ...
20:23:01 <fizzie> `run echo '3987 12^ 4365 12^+ 4472 12^ f' | dc
20:23:02 <HackEgo> 63976656348486725806862358322168575784124416 \ 63976656349698612616236230953154487896987106
20:23:22 <kmc> shachaf: do you know idris? should i learn idris?
20:23:32 <Bike> fizzie: oh that does seem close
20:23:37 <shachaf> kmc: i don't know either one
20:23:52 <shachaf> kmc: were you at edwinb's talk about it a couple of years ago?
20:23:55 <kmc> you don't know whether you know idris?
20:23:59 <fizzie> Bike: It's close if you're all floating point.
20:24:21 <fizzie> octave:1> (3987^12 + 4365^12)^(1/12)
20:24:44 * kmc imagines a Flappy Bird clone named Floaty Point
20:26:09 <Bike> fucking unstable internet
20:26:22 <shachaf> kmc: you should learn it and then tell me
20:29:04 <kmc> error: aborting due to 7452 previous errors
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20:47:14 <Bike> Join to #esoteric was synced in 464 secs
20:48:14 <HackEgo> arrocoin hartransomskjcoin orthcoin elorifidcoin .yachectcoin temparcoin formylecoin proogucoin pyriacoin burecoin zowiercoin braincoin cobospeacoin triacoin puccinforcoin elfcoin rococoin prdcatcoin waduzicoin yourcomcoin
20:53:20 <fizzie> kmc: What are you using all these coins for?
21:03:44 <Bike> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/02/harvard-supercomputing-cluster-hijacked-to-produce-alt-cryptocurrency/ student steals supercomputer for doges
21:09:56 <Bike> soon we'll hear about tsmc facilities being hijacked to make miner asics
21:10:13 <shachaf> kmc: should i learn idris and/or rust
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21:16:55 <shachaf> if i define FOO=/some/path in bash, can i get tab completion for $FOO/<tab>?
21:23:34 <kmc> ATTRIBUTE_NAMES[574] = ATTR_VERYVERYTHICKMATHSPACE;
21:29:16 <zzo38> Pokemon cards GUST OF WIND is mainly useful to switch into opponent's cards having high retreat cost, especially to me. Often even if they are resisted to me, it is more helpful.
21:29:30 <zzo38> Do you think so too?
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22:10:58 <fizzie> Curiosity question: has anything used a 2x2 RGGB Bayer pattern in a display instead of a sensor?
22:12:05 <kmc> the XO-1 screen is... not a Bayer pattern, but weird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XO_screen_01_Pengo.jpg
22:12:32 <fizzie> It's pretty close to a Bayer pattern.
22:12:42 <kmc> it has the same density of all three colors. they're just in diagonal stripes
22:12:46 <kmc> it takes a second to see it
22:12:52 <fizzie> Yes, it did take a second.
22:13:13 <fizzie> Now that you mention that, I think I vaguely recall some other "odd" arrangement.
22:13:15 <kmc> they did this in order to use a single diffraction grating instead of a lot of filters
22:13:31 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PenTile ?
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22:28:20 <fizzie> Interesting asides found while Googling for this: a downsampling algorithm that goes directly from a Bayer-pattern sensor image to a RGB subpixel screen image, that's supposedly better than doing a traditional demosaicing and then downsampling that disregards the subpixel layout information.
22:34:47 <kmc> you could use that for viewing RAW images on LCD monitors
22:39:00 <fizzie> The suggested use was for camera viewfinders and screens, since they have to show a downscaled "live view" image.
22:39:31 * kmc has 5 GB of RAW files so far and has done exactly nothing with them
22:39:43 <kmc> fizzie: ah, good
22:40:03 * kmc has a MILC with an impressive OLED viewfinder
22:40:34 <fizzie> Does it have 2.36 megadots?
22:41:06 <fizzie> That seems to be the norm for modern high-end thingies.
22:41:24 <fizzie> It's also really strange that EVF and camera screen resolutions are given in terms of subpixel counts, while everywhere else displays count full pixels.
22:41:36 <fizzie> They must've gotten that from the way sensor resolutions are counted.
22:42:23 <fizzie> (Like that "2.36 million dots", that's 1024*768*3.)
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22:43:31 <fizzie> My old non-ILC zoomy-woomy camera has a 188 kilodot EVF.
22:43:36 <fizzie> That's significantly less impressive.
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22:57:57 <boily> bleeeeeeeeeerghhh...
22:58:34 <Bike> hello helloily
22:59:39 <boily> (or is it olsnello?)
22:59:43 <olsner> someone claimed to have made some progress on the voynich manuscript
23:00:03 <Bike> two separate someones!
23:00:13 <HackEgo> 960) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
23:00:17 <metasepia> CYUL 212252Z 21013KT 15SM SCT060 BKN085 02/00 A2968 RMK SC4AC3 SLP053
23:00:32 <metasepia> EGNT 212250Z 23010KT 200V270 9999 FEW018 BKN023 05/03 Q0990
23:01:00 <metasepia> EFHK 212250Z 11010KT 9999 BKN006 00/M01 Q1006 TEMPO 6000 -SN
23:01:05 <boily> Bike: as it isn't raining, we don't have proof that there are at least two different people on Earth to claim voynich-progress.
23:01:17 <olsner> (I referred to this someone http://stephenbax.net/)
23:01:38 <metasepia> ESSA 212250Z 22005KT 2500 BR OVC002 03/02 Q0998 R01L/29//95 R01R/29//95 R08/29//95 TEMPO 1400
23:02:49 <olsner> now I will read a book
23:05:58 <FireFly> What is the meaning of R01L/29//95 ?
23:08:10 <boily> FireFly: those are runway conditions. 10° leftmost runway, something something, surface conditions.
23:08:17 <HackEgo> peochallcoin scutomousedagonalietcoin linearassurbecoin dnrandreimacrocoin clotacoin poinecoin claitafncoin wormcoin isairicoin selliicoin sobufcoin moniacoin didecoin blackcoin finicoin hapylicoin hydromcoin objectioncalculacoin quecoin halfcoin
23:08:44 <boily> FireFly: I never can remember what the magic numbers mean.
23:09:05 <boily> kmc: is it me, or are the coin names getting sillier and sillier?
23:10:17 <boily> I want a bunch of Quécoins!
23:11:16 <HackEgo> hommapcoin legidcoin ronecoin smitrevelancoin årlitticoin ardigfillcoin sigacoin intercoin zelcoin @coin mazulecoin tainscoin uncitierdcoin phinecoin pericoin mumonkelxxviiiudgecoin brakapebatocoin datiblemcoin forraphcoin krylcoin
23:11:31 <boily> `coins --french 20
23:11:34 <HackEgo> xaincoin 4dlcoin mannstatcoin spironcoin bestantcoin nourvoudcoin eibercicoin haicoin distrancoin graycoin maigecoin sucorpocoin posiicoin brazdcoin embestacoin versenencoin strustitlcoin pingcoin bubbecoin madnscoin
23:12:10 <boily> `coins --japanese 20
23:12:28 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
23:12:36 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
23:12:49 <Bike> manx but not japanese?
23:12:55 <Bike> `coins --manx 20
23:12:56 <HackEgo> chocoin lo'reravacoin capcoin sanidcoin thummillanencoin shagogcoin ghkincoin luttolercoin physidcoin anumecoin sadolcoin sacriburtcoin bircoin virusthograishcoin lengersecoin shellcoin braghcoin onotacoin eddenncoin nylcoin
23:13:47 <HackEgo> והבדcoin wollencoin unshilaxcoin geolacoin hq9+coin desedjametaligeunstaquecogsbycoin בסבורסטיcoin שהתאניcoin regxcoin epingcoin וההיאהוזיטוראcoin youarecoin alldecoin albocoin שנסתcoin ומהcoin immicoin ובחושcoin exelcoin לקערובצהcoin
23:14:11 <boily> I don't think hq9+ is valid hebrew...
23:14:12 <Bike> let's just stick with that one
23:14:30 <boily> shachaf: your opinion on --hebres?
23:15:10 <FireFly> `words --hebrew --german-medical 20
23:15:12 <HackEgo> subkorpolyt psorisch הוצא בהכלכלה בנחח gast מין ומסירוס לסליקצבי dihydran סקרנב tasoleucin ארנד עוקליסטו sonsweit trikum למעמדתו sequenzele שבאיזודי שהנשמרניש
23:15:29 <FireFly> Those datasets might not blend very well together..
23:15:52 <boily> and... uhm.. --canadian-english-insane???
23:16:01 <boily> `coins --canadian-english-insane 20
23:16:03 <HackEgo> irngcoin enedcoin abetacoin cursioncoin vvlercoin kelitafncoin lockcoin uncomcoin ouviacoin myxomcoin tifcoin ferncoin wuttycoin wjyothcoin melshowcoin rposcoin fielcoin durecoin midecoin unrepushedromecoin
23:16:15 <FireFly> Well, the last part is implied by 'canadian', isn't it?
23:16:20 <Bike> i think the -insane just means the volume.
23:17:06 <boily> you wutty vvler that you are, you unrepushedrome person.
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23:22:43 <boily> Insanadian is unduckable.
23:22:49 <boily> `relcome chaiomanot_
23:22:50 <HackEgo> chaiomanot_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:23:07 <boily> (ah, it's been a long time since I've `relcomed someone new!)
23:23:15 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:23:15 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:23:19 <boily> (and ooooh, I do have nice term colours here.)
23:23:36 <boily> chaiomanot_: were you already `relcomed? I kinda disappeared from the channel lately.
23:24:25 <chaiomanot_> there are a lot of ppl here, how do you know i'm new?
23:25:11 <boily> my Instincts, Gut Feelings, and Because I Decided So as thinking is too hard at this time of the day.
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23:26:03 <chaiomanot_> im surprised you guys dont just have hackego do it automatically
23:26:37 <boily> I mean, a solution obviously exists, so solving the problem is trivial.
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23:34:56 <boily> impellomatic. Sgello.
23:35:04 <boily> Tanelle, Quinthellopia.
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23:50:05 <boily> (tonight is a very welcommy night!)
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00:00:51 <oerjan> <nyuszika7h> nyuszika7h@cadoth ~ % tmux -V <-- i take it is a bad sign that my tmux doesn't understand that option.
00:01:37 <oerjan> which means i don't know what my version is, i guess
00:02:44 <boily> quintopia: it was noisy in the lunchroom today!
00:06:11 <oerjan> <kmc> https://github.com/mame/radiation-hardened-quine <-- hmph, for realism it should work if any one character was _changed_
00:06:51 <quintopia> boily: meanwhile in USA olympic news, ashley wagner is a total bitch. she skates really well and then bitches about the judging, making her country look bad by association. hope they don't let her back on the team.
00:07:22 <kmc> oerjan: but only by one ASCII bit, right? :)
00:07:33 <oerjan> error correction memory exists, though. i wonder if anyone's managed to make a "radiation-hardened" _cpu_ which works if any internal register bit is flipped
00:07:53 <oerjan> kmc: well that would probably be enough in most cases
00:08:11 <boily> quintopia: sorry, can't hear you over the Glorious Awesomeness of our athletes :P
00:08:39 <boily> (hm. I can buy a distressingly furry gold dragon armour for 5620 gold pieces...)
00:08:42 <oerjan> i suppose if you get enough radiation that you risk _two_ bits in one byte being changed, you're in deep shit anyhow.
00:08:49 <quintopia> boily: meanwhile, our norwegian has not a thing to say about his country's ten gold medals (or more now?)
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00:09:21 <oerjan> except that it's sort of logical that a particle might effect more than one bit in a region of a chip, maybe?
00:09:22 <kmc> oerjan: that sounds like a fun challenge
00:10:54 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't want to brag you know. i read in the paper that bjørgen was close to getting the record for most medals for a woman (and i might already get it anyhow because the current holder was accused of doping)
00:11:29 <oerjan> (also i don't really follow the games fanatically, i just get what it says in the paper)
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00:13:05 <oerjan> quintopia: in the beginning us norwegians were mostly shocked about not being able to get the skis properly prepared...
00:13:18 <oerjan> but i understand that has improved as the weather cooled
00:13:54 <quintopia> oerjan: it is kind of unfair to ask people used to skiing on perfect snow to learn to water ski on the fly
00:14:04 <oerjan> quintopia: you'd think
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00:16:38 <oerjan> also *-i how did that get there
00:16:57 * oerjan isn't getting any olympic medals
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00:19:59 <oerjan> > (3987**12 + 4365**12, 4472**12)
00:20:01 <lambdabot> (6.397665634969862e43,6.397665634848672e43)
00:20:25 <oerjan> > (3987^12 + 4365^12 - 4472^12)
00:20:27 <lambdabot> 1211886809373872630985912112862690
00:21:12 <oerjan> it's that "close enough to work on a calculator display" kind, i take.
00:23:59 <quintopia> boily: so when does this job of yours let you vacation. how much?
00:27:16 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah, doesn't work with standard floating point
00:27:20 <boily> quintopia: two weeks per year, starting the first year I work there.
00:27:30 <FreeFull> Depends on you using the decimal floating point of calculators
00:27:38 <oerjan> <HackEgo> [...] rococoin [...] <-- i expect that one to by highly embellished
00:27:56 <quintopia> boily: so you have to work a year before you get it or?
00:28:16 <oerjan> > (3987^12 + 4365^12 == (4472^12::Float))
00:28:33 <oerjan> FreeFull: depends whih standard hth
00:28:39 <FreeFull> Oh, I suppose Float is imprecise enough
00:29:06 <oerjan> WHAT IS HAPPENING TO BY SMELLING
00:29:16 <boily> quintopia: I can vacate in 2014 :D
00:29:47 <quintopia> oerjan: seems like you have a cold
00:29:55 <oerjan> the good news is he can vacate in 2014. the bad news is his employer is muslim.
00:30:07 <quintopia> boily: yay! wanna vacation together? :P
00:31:10 <boily> oerjan: my employer is muslim?
00:31:22 <boily> quintopia: probably not before september.
00:31:56 <oerjan> boily: yep, it's year 2014 after mohammed's (peace be upon him!) move to medina hth
00:32:27 <boily> oerjan: aaaaah (← I understand.) AAAAAAAAAAAAH! (← I'll probably be dead by then.)
00:32:53 <oerjan> boily: it's ok you can get a vacation before if you go on hajj
00:35:03 <boily> oerjan: but quintopia'll have to hajj with me!
00:35:31 <oerjan> i don't see any added problem with that
00:43:29 * boily 's karmic-roguelike sense is tingling.
00:43:45 <boily> that run I'm doing is going too well...
00:43:59 <boily> elliott: I feel weird. things are going my way at DCSS.
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00:54:30 <quintopia> boily: sounds good. where should we go
00:55:24 <boily> quintopia: mecca first, then jakarta.
00:55:51 <quintopia> boily: my music program thing is now in stereo :D
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01:12:06 <quintopia> boily: you have a pythonic linux yes?
01:16:15 <olsner> oerjan: I have a vague idea that cpu registers are "often" ECC
01:17:12 <kmc> not sure, but I think radiation etc. is much less likely to flip SRAM than DRAM
01:18:33 <kmc> a SRAM cell is like two amplifiers feeding back into each other
01:19:31 <kmc> a DRAM cell is just a capacitor + transistor
01:21:35 <boily> quintopia: I am both a penguin and snake fanboy.
01:22:11 <quintopia> boily: then try it out! http://sprunge.us/QMMG
01:23:12 <olsner> lots of comments, good code
01:25:26 <boily> quintopia: I apparently have a marked absence of /dev/dsp.
01:26:33 <olsner> maybe you need to alsa oss something something?
01:27:17 <boily> my current machine is asymptotically converging towards zzo-status.
01:27:24 <boily> (meaning: weird stuff happens.)
01:29:06 <boily> olsner: I'm compiling oss.
01:29:26 <kmc> you could also pipe into 'play' with the appropriate parameters
01:30:39 <quintopia> boily: there was another guy who didn't have that. he was able just to install one package and it worked
01:31:15 <boily> but I miss compiling random stuff! at my new job we're using windows machines! it feels weird and dirty!
01:31:22 <kmc> quintopia: you could write chr(int(samp/256)%256)+chr(int(samp%256)) as struct.pack('<H', samp) or so
01:31:48 <olsner> boily: otoh, sound probably works
01:32:27 <kmc> well this particular case isn't "sound doesn't work in Linux" so much as "using the 10+ year old deprecated sound API doesn't work"
01:32:41 <kmc> it's true that Windows is more apt to keep 10+ year deprecated APIs around
01:33:31 <boily> compilation worked, but insmodding the modules didn't.
01:33:50 <quintopia> kmc: yeah i figured that. in fact, i looked it up at some point. but that was only a recent change i made, and was too lazy to look it up again.
01:39:54 <quintopia> kmc: no errors, but no sound either. what happen.
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01:44:59 <quintopia> yeah i just put it back like it was since the pack thing doesn't work
02:02:17 <quintopia> boily: what is the plural of menage a trois?
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02:05:16 <boily> quintopia: ménages à trois.
02:05:34 <boily> (or ménage à six, if you like it that way.)
02:07:14 <Bike> https://twitter.com/LW_txt btw
02:08:12 <boily> since when is Glenn Gould a bad guy?
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02:12:47 <HackEgo> words --eng-1M --esolangs ${1-20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
02:13:44 <Bike> what's ${1-20}
02:14:11 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/--eng-1M --esolangs [$]{1-/${1---eng-1M --esolangs /' bin/coins
02:14:14 <ion> `run foo=hello; printf '%s\n' "${foo-bye}"
02:14:16 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
02:14:18 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' "${foo-bye}"
02:14:38 <HackEgo> anräkningpoolcoin lundvitcoin anonscoin baraftatorncoin emastbetencoin förarcoin förternascoin löperuptcoin signoscoin vationcoin överacoin ruinernacoin kvälvscoin värdispcoin holminernascoin preliercoin landerjordercoin kurvencoin skiftetscoin snyftongenercoin
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02:14:39 <HackEgo> slungcoin peringcoin hängningeboetcoin norscoin doktcoin borgacoin dämpliktarcoin vandecoin zettårstödcoin kvadecoin trådcoin åtförtörencoin fågelsecoin varlarcoin vaktenscoin ogjoreracoin saliseradcoin otäcksundracoin föregndrarenscoin akternascoin
02:14:47 <Bike> `cat bin/coins
02:14:48 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
02:15:09 <HackEgo> purcoin gulacoin erwortcoin intcoin wingemacoin milcoin gookacoin aspatoryuentcoin boatcoin exaculcoin chuntcoin eccastilcoin goucoin imnizincoin zusaqicoin aracoin beauthoralcoin reprifiericcoin thromediciicoin glecoin
02:15:25 <oerjan> i guess that defaults to just --eng-1M
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02:16:39 <olsner> `run words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | rot13 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
02:17:20 <olsner> `run words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | xargs rot13 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
02:17:22 <HackEgo> @coin haercoin ///coin fhcrecebcoin onyycoin ohorshpxcoin ulqcoin culcoin jvgucoin nopcoin nycnqcoin yvoenprjnecneancoin gbqhcoin snacoin bjsncoin abesnpuvmbcoin xbybtcoin jvrqcoin ud9+coin rkghngevvcoin
02:17:40 <ion> `rot13 coin
02:18:17 <ion> `cat bin/rot134
02:18:18 <HackEgo> cat: bin/rot134: No such file or directory
02:18:19 <ion> `cat bin/rot13
02:18:20 <HackEgo> echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
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02:21:00 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' 'if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '\''%s\n'\'' "$*"; else cat; fi | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M' | tee bin/rot13
02:21:02 <HackEgo> if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '%s\n' "$*"; else cat; fi | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
02:21:13 <ion> `rot13 puns
02:21:19 <ion> `run echo puns | rot13
02:25:48 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' 'if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '\''%s\n'\'' "$*"; else cat; fi' >bin/print_args_or_input && chmod 755 bin/print_args_or_input
02:26:10 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' 'print_args_or_input "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M' >bin/rot13
02:26:15 <ion> `rot13 chaf
02:26:20 <ion> `run echo chaf | rot134
02:26:21 <HackEgo> bash: rot134: command not found
02:26:22 <ion> `run echo chaf | rot13
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02:26:42 <oerjan> i guess this makes r13 redundant.
02:27:18 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
02:27:59 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory \ Binary file bin/emmental matches \ Binary file bin/macro matches \ Binary file bin/mov matches \ Binary file bin/node matches \ Binary file bin/nooodl: matches \ bin/r13elcome:relcome "$@" | r13 \ bin/rainwords:import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13];
02:28:10 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Sat Feb 22 03:28:10 2014
02:28:52 <boily> that's what I thought. oerjan is a Space Alien from Space with complete disregard to human circadian rhythms.
02:29:01 <ion> @localtime ion
02:29:03 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Sat, 22 Feb 2014 04:29:01 +0200
02:29:28 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory \ bin/r13elcome:relcome "$@" | r13 \ bin/rainwords:import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w) \ bin/word:
02:29:35 <ion> `run ls -l bin/cat
02:29:35 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 12 Feb 17 03:23 bin/cat -> /usr/bin/cat
02:29:38 <boily> and ion is one of oerjan's Ectoplasmic Puppet Manifestations.
02:31:07 <oerjan> `run grep -I r13 bin/*
02:31:08 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory \ bin/r13elcome:relcome "$@" | r13
02:31:30 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/r13/rot13/' bin/r13elcome; rm bin/r13
02:31:42 <HackEgo> ion: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:31:49 <HackEgo> vba: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
02:32:44 <ion> `run grep -I '\$[*@]' bin/*
02:32:44 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory \ bin/^.^:cat $@ \ bin/¿:? "$@" | rev | tac \ bin/؟:? "$@" | rev \ bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ:WELCOME "$@" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /' \ bin/aaaaaaaaa:echo "$@" | tr A-Za-z0-9 [A*26][a*26][4*10] \ bin/as86:as="$1"; shift; echo ".intel_syntax noprefix; $as" | gcc "$@" -c -x assembler /d
02:33:37 <ion> `run grep -EI '(echo|printf).{,10}\$[*@]' bin/*
02:33:38 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory \ bin/aaaaaaaaa:echo "$@" | tr A-Za-z0-9 [A*26][a*26][4*10] \ bin/complain:echo "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you. \ bin/instalist:echo $@ \ bin/ord:echo "$@" | perl -C7 -pe 'chomp; $_ = join(" ", map { ord } split //, $_);' \ bin/ordu:echo "$@" | perl -C7 -pe 'chomp; $_ = join(" ", map { s
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02:33:59 <oerjan> boily: you didn't already know this?
02:35:36 <boily> I am sane, therefore I didn't.
02:35:41 <ion> `run echo 'test echo "$@" echo "$*" echo $@ test' | sed -re 's/echo ("?)\$[@*]\1 /print_args_or_input "$@" /'
02:35:41 <HackEgo> test print_args_or_input "$@" echo "$*" echo $@ test
02:35:47 <ion> `run echo 'test echo "$@" echo "$*" echo $@ test' | sed -re 's/echo ("?)\$[@*]\1 /print_args_or_input "$@" /g'
02:35:47 <HackEgo> test print_args_or_input "$@" print_args_or_input "$@" print_args_or_input "$@" test
02:37:16 <ion> `run sed -i -re 's/echo ("?)\$[@*]\1 /print_args_or_input "$@" /g' "bin/^.^" bin/aaaaaaaaa; cat "bin/^.^" bin/aaaaaaaaa
02:37:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cat $@ \ #!/bin/sh \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Za-z0-9 [A*26][a*26][4*10]
02:38:06 <ion> `run sed -i -re 's/echo ("?)\$[@*]\1 /print_args_or_input "$@" /g' bin/complain bin/ord bin/ordu
02:38:23 <ion> `cat bin/instalist
02:39:00 <ion> `run rm bin/instalist; ln -s print_args_or_input bin/instalist
02:39:06 <ion> `instalist foo bar
02:39:37 <oerjan> `run grep instalist bin/*
02:39:37 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory
02:39:44 <ion> `run grep -EI '(echo|printf) ("?)\$[*@]\1' bin/*
02:39:45 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory
02:39:56 <ion> `run grep -EI '(echo|printf) ("?)\$[*@]\2' bin/*
02:39:57 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory \ bin/shmify:echo "$@" | sed -e 's/^\([^aeiou]*\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/' \ bin/unhex:echo "$@" | xxd -r -p
02:40:28 <ion> `run sed -i -re 's/echo ("?)\$[@*]\1 /print_args_or_input "$@" /g' bin/shmify bin/unhex; cat bin/shmify bin/unhex
02:40:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | sed -e 's/^\([^aeiou]*\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/' \ print_args_or_input "$@" | xxd -r -p
02:40:43 <ion> `run grep -EI '(echo|printf) ("?)\$[*@]\2' bin/*
02:40:43 <HackEgo> grep: bin/cat: No such file or directory
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02:41:09 <ion> `run ls -l /usr/bin/cat
02:41:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin/cat: No such file or directory
02:41:27 <ion> `run rm bin/cat
02:41:37 <ion> `cat bin/shmify
02:41:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | sed -e 's/^\([^aeiou]*\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
02:42:29 <ion> `ls -lL bin/cat
02:42:30 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
02:42:35 <ion> `run ls -lL bin/cat
02:42:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/cat: No such file or directory
02:42:43 <ion> `run ls -l bin/cat
02:42:43 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 12 Feb 22 02:42 bin/cat -> /usr/bin/cat
02:42:50 <oerjan> ion: i was trying to find the file history
02:43:04 <oerjan> but apparently it's now gone.
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02:44:09 <oerjan> oh i see it was freefull doing a rather silly vandalism evasion
02:45:54 <HackEgo> cat: bin/cat: No such file or directory
02:46:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/cat: No such file or directory
02:46:27 <oerjan> Gregor: now the repository browser is missing a change again
02:47:20 <oerjan> @tell Gregor i did two consecutive `reverts and only the first shows up in the repository browser
02:47:22 <ion> Where’s the repository browser?
02:47:59 <oerjan> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:50:39 <HackEgo> cat: bin/cat: No such file or directory
02:50:46 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
02:50:52 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 12 Feb 22 02:48 bin/cat -> /usr/bin/cat
02:51:09 <oerjan> `run rm bin/cat; echo nope >bin/cat
02:51:31 <ion> `run cat complaints
02:51:41 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 9 Feb 17 03:23 complaints -> /dev/null
02:52:32 <oerjan> @tell Gregor oh hm it was involving a symbolic link again. "fixed" it by doing some other change, then turning it into a normal file, then deleting it normally.
02:53:01 <oerjan> the repository really doesn't handle symbolic links well.
02:53:11 <ion> I wonder why?
02:56:05 <oerjan> i am guessing there's some code that assumes they don't exist, so does a test the wrong way and confuses being a symbolic link with not existing.
02:56:16 <oerjan> although it only happens in some cases.
02:57:12 <oerjan> your first rm bin/cat worked, as did my revert of it, but the revert of that only changed the actual file, not the repository version.
02:57:45 <oerjan> so when i did another change it was copied back somehow.
02:58:10 <oerjan> but turning it into a "normal" file makes things work again.
02:58:36 <oerjan> it's not the first time this kind of thing happens.
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03:56:24 <zzo38> How did menus and joystick on the original Amiga and Macintosh computers work?
04:19:54 <oerjan> no, zzo38 is an old an esteemed regular of this channel, who may however be rather excentric.
04:20:08 <oerjan> i hope this clears it up.
04:20:54 <newsham> cool. then i should prob apologize for some of my rude answers.. it just always feels like i'm being trolled
04:21:09 <newsham> amiga and mac primarily worked with mouse, not joystick
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04:25:15 <zzo38> I know it worked with mouse, not joystick
04:25:24 <zzo38> But do they support a joystick at all?
04:27:16 <newsham> i dont think amiga supported a joystick for the workbench gui. you could use joysticks with games
04:28:03 <Bike> http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pcbi.1003456 finally someone figures out a practical use for Quake
04:28:05 <newsham> http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=68707 <- said you could but it wouldnt workw ell
04:28:06 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought, but how do those joysticks work?
04:29:00 <newsham> iirc amiga accepted standard atari joysticks, 9 pin d-connector, which had one pin for up,down,left,right and fire, and it would hook up those pins to vcc or gnd as you moved the joystick?
04:29:16 <newsham> i thikn the mouse worked the same way except it would click many times in the directions it was travelling
04:30:59 <zzo38> How did joystick work on Commodore 64, Macintosh, Apple II, etc?
04:31:48 <newsham> http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/1435/joyportsro8.jpg
04:32:02 <newsham> c64 and atari and amiga had the same joystick connector port
04:32:15 <newsham> i dont know about appleII or mac
04:33:01 <zzo38> I do know also how PC joysticks work, which used discharge times, I think
04:33:14 <newsham> http://www.epanorama.net/documents/joystick/atari_stick.gif
04:33:46 <newsham> some joysticks use two potentiometers, one for x axis, one for y axis. one way to measure the potentiometer is to charge it with an RC circuit and see how long it takes to discharge
04:34:24 <newsham> atari and c64 also supported reading pots on the joystick port.. i havent heard of people using it for a joystick, but people used it for the "paddle controllers" used by pong and driving games
04:34:58 <newsham> http://www.waitingforfriday.com/images/thumb/6/61/Commodore_Paddles.png/300px-Commodore_Paddles.png
04:35:51 <newsham> http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Paddle
04:36:27 <newsham> "analog joysticks" are just like two paddles used together as one joystick
04:38:46 <newsham> http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Tutorial/joy_pic_480.jpg
04:44:11 <zzo38> The Z-machine documentation includes more extension table words, such as MSETBL, MSEDIR, MSEINV, MSEVRB, MSEWRD, BUTTON, JOYSTICK, BSTAT, JSTAT. The first five are for menus, BUTTON is for button events, JOYSTICK for joystick events, and BSTAT and JSTAT store the state of the buttons and joystick.
04:44:37 <zzo38> I am trying to figure out how this was supposed to work. I believe Infocom probably had no details in mind when they wrote this down, actually.
04:46:07 <newsham> "(the following words are defined but no XZIP implements them)
04:46:34 <zzo38> Yes, and not only did they not implement them, but they didn't document them, either.
04:46:46 <zzo38> And they never used them.
04:49:21 <zzo38> Other than these things, there are two remaining unknown things: One is more details about their MIDI files (I believe command 0xFF is a delay, but cannot figure out the units and have no evidence other than the files themselves), and which computers used which variant of Font 3.
04:51:08 <zzo38> The DECSystem-20 interpreter used VT100 character graphics if used with a VT100 terminal, or custom graphics that match either the PC or Amiga (I don't know which) if you have a VT220 terminal. There was no way to check this feature within the Z-code program other than asking the user, as far as I know.
04:51:44 <zzo38> (Maybe the interpreter version identifier byte could indicate this, but even if it did, Infocom did not use this.)
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05:28:40 <oerjan> did you know kmc and happy birthday have absolutely no letters in common
05:30:31 <oerjan> kmc: i am sorry but my attempts to wish you a chimæric happy birthday have been thwarted. in two languages.
05:31:06 <Bike> what... does that mean
05:31:15 <oerjan> gratulerer kmced dagen
05:32:15 <oerjan> he does seem a little silent
05:34:16 <oerjan> "Once one goes down that road, one’s on a very slippery slope. Perhaps that’s why the kind of attitude you elucidated there, Jeremy, is one of the greatest enablers of evil in the history of our species."
05:34:30 <oerjan> someone is on a slippery slope to godwin
05:35:05 <oerjan> and this was in a quantum computing discussion.
05:35:45 <Bike> we all know hitler was emotionally damaged by the negative reception to his quantum annealing company
05:36:18 * oerjan has a hunch Bike may have read the same thread.
05:36:31 <newsham> map chr $ zipWith (ord x ^ ord y) "KMC" "day"
05:36:34 <newsham> > map chr $ zipWith (ord x ^ ord y) "KMC" "day"
05:36:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char
05:36:36 <lambdabot> -> GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Int'
05:36:36 <lambdabot> with actual type `GHC.Types.Int'Couldn't match expected type `GH...
05:36:36 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'Couldn't match e...
05:36:36 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
05:36:49 <newsham> > map chr $ zipWith (\x y -> ord x ^ ord y) "KMC" "day"
05:36:50 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Prelude.chr: bad argument: 1839101630706465969
05:36:51 <Bike> no, but it's pretty easy to guess if you're reading about quantum computing it's aaronson, and if it's aaronson it's d-wave
05:37:10 <Bike> basically sherlock holmes and Jesus in one right here
05:37:32 <oerjan> Bike: can't argue against that
05:37:55 <oerjan> > map chr $ zipWith (\x y -> ord x `xor` ord y) "KMC" "day"
05:38:15 <Bike> good cos i'd have fucked you up like a fig tree
05:40:17 <oerjan> > zipWith (xor `ala` chr) "KMC" "day" -- wonder if this was the function...
05:40:19 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int'
05:40:19 <lambdabot> -> (GHC.Types.Char -> c0) -> GHC.Types.Char -> c0'
05:40:19 <lambdabot> Expected type: ((GHC.Types.Char -> c0)
05:40:19 <lambdabot> -> (GHC.Types.Char -> c0) -> GHC.Types.Char -> c0)
05:40:25 <lambdabot> Wrapped s s a a => (s -> a) -> ((s -> a) -> e -> a) -> e -> s
05:44:06 <oerjan> maybe that's not so easy to use with a binary function.
05:45:14 <newsham> > map chr $ zipWith (xor `on` ord) "KMC" "day"
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05:45:37 <newsham> some fancy composition of chr with (xor `on` ord) ?
05:45:55 <oerjan> > zipWith (chr .: xor `on` ord) "KMC" "day"
05:45:56 <lambdabot> `.' (imported from Data.Function),
05:45:56 <lambdabot> `C..' (imported from Control.Category),
05:46:46 <oerjan> probably has the wrong precedence anyway.
05:47:21 <oerjan> well Chars are unicode
05:47:25 <Bike> well how else would you do xor if there was not bitwise representation to use
05:47:28 <zzo38> Because of its limit.
05:47:37 <oerjan> they're not closed under the operations.
05:47:40 <zzo38> Its limit is stupid, nonetheless, but it is there.
05:47:52 <zzo38> If they just used something liek 24-bits then it would work.
05:48:31 <quintopia> oerjan: what is the highest-degree poly-time algorithm ever used to solve a real problem? do you know?
05:48:43 <zzo38> (The I/O could convert characters outside of Unicode range into a Unicode replacement character, if needed; but you can use 24-bits in UTF-8)
05:48:45 <quintopia> the highest i know of is the sextic algorithm for PRIMES
05:49:14 <oerjan> that was the one that dropped into my mind too
05:49:31 <oerjan> i may not be well-educated on this issue.
05:50:43 <oerjan> also does anyone use that for "real" given that the randomized tests are faster, even if you want a certificate?
05:51:23 <newsham> ?hoogle (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> (a -> a -> a) -> (b -> b -> b)
05:52:10 <Bike> chemistry is really weird. i'm looking at an explicit wavefunction. and then there's a footnote indicating that exp x means e^x.
05:52:59 <newsham> bike: now you wont wonder what e, x and p are and why they're being multiplied!
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06:11:15 <oerjan> @let onIso f i x y = review i f (view i x) (view i y)
06:11:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Control.Lens.Internal.Review.Reviewed
06:11:47 <oerjan> @let onIso f i x y = view (re i) f (view i x) (view i y)
06:11:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Control.Lens.Internal.Review.Reviewed
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06:13:07 <oerjan> hm the syntax is correct, i probably need rank-N types
06:14:18 <newsham> ?hoogle (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> (a -> a -> c) -> (b -> b -> d)
06:15:04 <oerjan> @let onIso :: (a -> a -> a) -> (Iso' b a) -> (b -> b -> b); onIso f i x y = view (re i) f (view i x) (view i y)
06:15:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `a' with `a -> a -> a'
06:15:06 <lambdabot> `a' is a rigid type variable bound by
06:15:06 <lambdabot> onIso :: (a -> a -> a) -> Iso' b a -> b -> b -> b
06:15:20 <oerjan> @let onIso :: (a -> a -> a) -> (Iso' a b) -> (b -> b -> b); onIso f i x y = view (re i) f (view i x) (view i y)
06:15:22 <lambdabot> with `(b -> b -> b) -> (b -> b -> b) -> b -> b -> b'
06:15:22 <lambdabot> `b' is a rigid type variable bound by
06:15:35 <Bike> woooooo yeah baby
06:15:46 <Bike> take it all offfff
06:17:11 <oerjan> @let onIso :: (a -> a -> a) -> (Iso' a b) -> (b -> b -> b); onIso f i x y = view (re i) $ f (view i x) (view i y)
06:17:11 <zzo38> What does "utf8_unicode_ci" mean in MySQL?
06:17:13 <lambdabot> `a' is a rigid type variable bound by
06:17:13 <lambdabot> onIso :: (a -> a -> a) -> Iso' a b -> b -> b -> b
06:17:26 <oerjan> @let onIso :: (a -> a -> a) -> (Iso' b a) -> (b -> b -> b); onIso f i x y = view (re i) $ f (view i x) (view i y)
06:18:30 <oerjan> > zipWith (onIso (re enum) xor) "KMC" "day"
06:18:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Int'
06:18:31 <lambdabot> Expected type: (GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Int)
06:18:31 <lambdabot> -> (GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Int)
06:18:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Int' with `a0 -> a0'
06:18:53 <lambdabot> -> (a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0 -> a0
06:19:04 <lambdabot> (a -> a -> a) -> Iso' b a -> b -> b -> b
06:19:30 <oerjan> > zipWith (xor `onIso` re enum) "KMC" "day"
06:19:31 <lambdabot> from the context (Data.Profunctor.Unsafe.Profunctor p,
06:19:31 <lambdabot> bound by a type expected by the context:
06:19:31 <lambdabot> (Data.Profunctor.Unsafe.Profunctor p, GHC.Base.Functor f) =>
06:19:55 <oerjan> this seems not entirely improving
06:20:09 <oerjan> > (xor `onIso` re enum) 'K' 'd'
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06:20:11 <lambdabot> from the context (Data.Profunctor.Unsafe.Profunctor p,
06:20:11 <lambdabot> bound by a type expected by the context:
06:20:11 <lambdabot> (Data.Profunctor.Unsafe.Profunctor p, GHC.Base.Functor f) =>
06:20:31 <oerjan> > (xor `onIso` enum) 'K' 'd'
06:20:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int' with `GHC.Types.Char'
06:20:33 <lambdabot> Expected type: p a0 (f a0) -> p GHC.Types.Char (f GHC.Types.Char)
06:20:33 <lambdabot> Actual type: p a0 (f a0) -> p GHC.Types.Int (f GHC.Types.Int)
06:20:50 <lambdabot> (Enum b, Functor f, Contravariant f) => (Int -> f Int) -> b -> f b
06:21:00 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Contravariant f) => AReview s t a b -> (t -> f t) -> b -> f b
06:21:45 <oerjan> > zipWith (xor `onIso` from enum) "KMC" "day"
06:22:16 <Bike> this is the thing you did earlier with nothing but vanilla haskell, right
06:22:36 <zzo38> I figured out what it means; I do not want to implement it due to its complexity.
06:23:52 <Bike> i should probably install a kannada font
06:24:09 <Bike> i still got ¬_¬ though
06:24:19 <newsham> > let boobs = (.).(.) in zipWith (chr `boobs` (xor `on` ord)) "KMC" "day"
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06:28:47 <newsham> ?let mapBinOp f g h = ((.).(.)) h (f `on` g)
06:29:07 <newsham> > zipWith (mapBinOp xor ord chr) "KMC" "day"
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06:32:56 <oerjan> > zipWith (mapBinOp xor `withIso` enum) "KMC" "day"
06:32:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int' with `GHC.Types.Char -> c0'
06:32:57 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a1 -> GHC.Types.Char -> a1)
06:32:57 <lambdabot> -> (b0 -> t0) -> GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Char -> c0
06:32:57 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a1 -> GHC.Types.Char -> a1)
06:32:57 <lambdabot> -> GHC.Types.Int -> GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.IntCouldn't m...
06:33:06 <oerjan> > zipWith (mapBinOp xor `withIso` from enum) "KMC" "day"
06:33:08 <lambdabot> with `Control.Lens.Internal.Iso.Exchange
06:34:29 <oerjan> > zipWith (withIso enum $ mapBinOp xor) "KMC" "day"
06:34:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' with `GHC.Types.Int'
06:34:30 <lambdabot> Actual type: [GHC.Types.Char]Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' with `GH...
06:34:39 <oerjan> > zipWith (withIso (from enum) $ mapBinOp xor) "KMC" "day"
06:35:08 <oerjan> :t zipWith (withIso (from enum) $ mapBinOp xor) "KMC" "day"
06:35:25 <oerjan> > zipWith (withIso (from enum) $ mapBinOp xor) "KMC" "day"
06:35:59 <oerjan> (one day i may be able to remember which side of things is s t and which is a b)
06:36:05 <Bike> you've been doing this for an hour now
06:36:38 <oerjan> right, it's about time for some food
06:58:15 <Sgeo> https://www.google.com/search?q=marquee+html
06:58:24 <Sgeo> (Stolen from #cslounge )
06:59:58 <Sgeo> https://www.google.com/#q=blink+html
07:07:46 <zzo38> Is there a chess problem where Bxa8# or Ba8# is the only solution?
07:08:26 <zzo38> (Or one of the other three corners)
07:16:47 <zzo38> What is the computational class of the "B-tapemark" esolang?
07:18:04 <Bike> any class you want it to be, baby
07:18:53 <zzo38> Sure, but then I would have to change it...I mean, how it is, what class it is the way it is, rather than what it would be otherwise.
07:21:04 <zzo38> "any class you want it to be, baby" is not a proper excuse.
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07:25:00 <zzo38> If it is Turing complete, would it be with some symbols removed, and if so, which ones?
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07:29:33 <zzo38> The conditions always only switch the program grid with the data grid when the condition is true.
07:47:53 <quintopia> oerjan: the only pattern that uses 0 x could just as easily be written 4242424240n140n1. the 0x is inessential, afaict.
07:50:17 <oerjan> um that doesn't do the same thing at all.
07:54:01 <oerjan> quintopia: that pattern doesn't work the way you think, and your version breaks horribly.
07:54:27 <quintopia> i went to sleep and then i came back to say i got it wrong
07:54:58 <Bike> no, that honor is taken by me.
07:54:58 <oerjan> maybe but it will make code longer.
07:59:43 <oerjan> !python -c 'print xrange(-1)'
07:59:45 <EgoBot> File "<stdin>", line 1 \ -c 'print xrange(-1)' \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
07:59:59 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print xrange(-1)'
08:00:22 <oerjan> quintopia: you could make IO trigger on a negative _first_ number.
08:01:21 <quintopia> oerjan: but there's so many nice properties i get by having it be zero. some of the examples i wrote use sneaky tricks.
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08:05:07 <quintopia> why not just have the interpreter filter 0x7F. no one needs to print a del character :P
08:05:23 <oerjan> have you ever heard of binary files
08:06:20 <oerjan> also, i don't see an obvious way to fix the 424242420xn10xn1 pattern.
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08:09:35 <quintopia> fix it? no just make another that accomplishes the same :P
08:09:45 <oerjan> well that's what i mean.
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08:11:44 <oerjan> quintopia: anyway i am objecting to restricting the form of pure ResPlicate programs on the chance that they _might_ run with IO enabled.
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08:21:18 <quintopia> you have to explicitly enable IO in the current interpreter. it is definitely an extension and not a core feature of the language. programs written in core have undefined behavior when run with the extension
08:21:43 <quintopia> also doesn't something like 4242424222n122n1n1 work?
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10:49:34 <fizzie> Why does my root window have a calculator icon? http://sprunge.us/dVAU
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11:35:41 <olsner> if the root window is 0 maybe a buggy calculator accidentally set the icon for null instead of itself?
11:36:00 <olsner> I just got _NET_WM_ICON: not found.
11:43:27 <fizzie> I did try out kcalc over two-hop X forwarding over SSH, because someone on another channel asked a question about kcalc, and I only had that installed at work.
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12:10:29 <Sgeo> I can't believe I'm actually considering learning vim
12:12:08 <olsner> worst case, you don't like it and use something else
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12:24:24 <impomatic> If anyone is in Vienna, there's a Core War event at Metalab at 4pm this afternoon https://metalab.at
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12:52:50 <Sgeo> "We call this CTRL-G" what, not C-g or something just as bizarre? Blasphemy!
12:53:26 <Slereah> You are supposed to remove the g key
12:54:15 <boily> a spotty decision to remove the G.
12:55:44 <Sgeo> Does less use vim-like commands?
12:55:50 <Sgeo> That would make doing this well worth it
12:56:17 <olsner> yes, similar (not the same though)
12:57:03 <olsner> since ctrl-g normally means ctrl plus g, ctrl+g should mean ctrl minus g
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12:58:47 <boily> so G is electron-like, and is a negatively charged letter. makes sense.
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13:57:22 <boily> nothing like washing the dishes to singe off a few skin layers on your fingers...
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14:50:14 <metasepia> CYUL 221400Z 22015KT 30SM FEW080 03/M05 A2969 RMK AC2 SLP057
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15:10:30 <boily> `relcome LoRdToLsToI
15:10:30 <HackEgo> LoRdToLsToI: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:53:30 <Slereah> Why did MS Paint take so long to have anti aliasing capabilities
15:53:40 <Slereah> The Wu line algorithm is from like 92
15:53:47 <Slereah> You'd think by Windows 95 it would be there
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16:06:29 <ais523> Slereah: because for most of what people seriously use Paint for, anti-aliasing is actively harmful
16:06:43 <ais523> its main use is things like limited color depth icons
16:07:04 <Slereah> Yes, but why not the *possibility* of it
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16:16:38 <SgeoWeb> So Freenode didn't break and die, it's just me?
16:16:53 <jconn> SgeoWeb: J, am I alive?
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16:21:55 <boily> Slereah: if Paint had AA, consequences would never be the same.
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16:24:07 <Slereah> boily : http://www.elftor.com/elftor.php?number=112
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16:25:53 <boily> Slereah: also, http://unomoralez.com/ (some quite NSFW)
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19:05:11 <Vorpal> Hm, so I looked at cfunge again, and now I am thinking, "Did I really write that sort of code a couple of years ago?"
19:05:27 <Vorpal> It is rather hard to follow in places
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19:11:46 <JWinslow23> Anyone want to see my newest calculator game?
19:12:38 <zzo38> What is that game?
19:13:48 <zzo38> Describe how the game is working, and what model of calculator it is for.
19:14:13 <JWinslow23> TI-83+, TI-84+, TI-83+SE, or TI-84+SE.
19:14:33 <JWinslow23> And here is a screenie of it running on an 84+: http://img.ourl.ca/JWinslowFlappyBirdv1rev4.gif
19:20:25 <zzo38> Maybe a background isn't needed, but is OK otherwise
19:22:49 <zzo38> There is no point removing it; I just meant it isn't really necessary.
19:24:56 <zzo38> Well, too bad, you can't get color graphics on those models of calculators. (And it would help, not only for some games, but also if you are plotting multiple data sets)
19:25:47 <JWinslow23> Well, TI just released a TI-84+ Color Silver Edition a year ago. :p
19:26:20 <zzo38> Yes, grayscale looks fine, but for some things it would be useful to have colors.
19:27:16 <JWinslow23> ...they actually made a "Flappy Bird" for that color calculator already.
19:28:21 <JWinslow23> Here is a screenie (just so you know, this was not made by me): http://www.cemetech.net/img/ss/001703.gif
19:28:47 <zzo38> Even if you are plotting a single function/dataset, it would help to have the axis a different color than the data. And then of course you can have color games, and various other colored things
19:29:16 <JWinslow23> It's kinda slow for the TI-BASIC language, though.
19:29:38 <zzo38> Yes, I would think so; TI-BASIC is slow in general.
19:30:49 <zzo38> The only model I have is TI-92, although I do have an emulator for some other models.
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19:31:40 <zzo38> It doesn't looks like it.
19:32:27 <zzo38> If your side disconnected but other one doesn't, you can try NS GHOST (if you have an account)
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19:38:20 <Vorpal> <JWinslow23> Here is a screenie (just so you know, this was not made by me): http://www.cemetech.net/img/ss/001703.gif <-- terrible FPS
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19:44:52 <int-e> ah something good came out of the horrible chain-chess variant on chessbase, a reflection on what makes games hard for computers compared to humans. (http://en.chessbase.com/post/computer-resistant-chess-variants)
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19:45:56 <Slereah> There are better games resistant to computers
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19:49:06 <zzo38> They also mentioned tandem pawns chess, option chess, etc they are interesting variants, but so is Sirlin's Chess, which they didn't mention.
19:50:38 <zzo38> Even though it differs by having hidden information.
19:51:07 <zzo38> There are many other variants with hidden information too, such as Kriegspiel
19:51:15 <zzo38> Or my own "Invisible Kings Chess"
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19:57:27 <int-e> Slereah: Dixit ultimately looks like a game of manipulation. I don't think that it'll be fun if played competetively. [For example, a couple could make up their own code for describing each of the cards.]
19:58:08 <Slereah> It is mostly a game for fun, yeah
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20:10:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, Just pushed some changes to cfunge. Some bug fixes on error handling paths, found using static analysis.
20:11:04 <Vorpal> Probably doesn't affect you
20:11:32 <Vorpal> Also PERL fix if the PERL output contains embedded nul bytes
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20:16:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, Oh and I fixed a bug making it fail to compile with icc
20:19:42 * boily whistles while the cuttle reboots ♪
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20:31:02 * boily mumbles “will you connect you damn bot...”
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20:40:26 <int-e> speaking of damn bots ... lambdabot, where art thou?
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20:53:38 <int-e> (it's trying ... but apparently has no luck finding an IRC server that will work. hmm.)
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21:02:53 <metasepia> CYUL 222000Z 22030G39KT 30SM FEW060 FEW080 FEW240 04/M06 A2964 RMK SC1AC1CI1 CI TR SLP039
21:05:45 <ion> I want my coins back.
21:06:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay. Indeed doesn't sound like it'd affect fungot much.
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21:08:05 <fizzie> Freenode and its flaky servers, again.
21:08:31 <fizzie> None of {holmes,pratchett,barjavel}.freenode.net seem to be talking to me.
21:09:12 <zzo38> I couldn't connect to irc.freenode.net either but I am connected to card and that one works.
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21:09:36 <int-e> rajaniemi.freenode.net seems stable currently
21:09:53 <fizzie> int-e: It's somewhat far away, though.
21:10:03 <int-e> low bandwidth, who cares
21:10:15 <int-e> (read: I don't care)
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21:10:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah it was mostly stuff like "if malloc fails here, you will read an uninitialized value there"
21:11:18 <Vorpal> int-e, but the latency!?
21:11:42 <int-e> 22:11:38 CTCP PING reply from int-e: 3.315 seconds
21:12:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I like the RPi photo
21:12:38 <fizzie> Did you catch the bit where I was trying to measure the physical size of a single pixel in the macro setup?
21:12:43 <int-e> (also odd; lambdabot is now using the same server and replies in less than 2 seconds)
21:12:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just saw lambdabot messages
21:13:22 <Vorpal> int-e, * Ping reply from irc.znc.in: 0.01 second(s)
21:13:42 <Vorpal> Why is it using such a stupid name
21:13:50 <Vorpal> it is running on my Rpi
21:14:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: If my ballpark calculations are right, one pixel in the source image (the ones I've posted have been scaled to 25%) corresponds to something like 1 µm. (Not that I've gotten exactly accurate-to-the-pixel images out of it.)
21:14:21 <fizzie> Bip uses "bip.bip.bip" as the host part of the prefix of messages it sends, IIRC.
21:14:22 <Vorpal> int-e, would work better
21:14:27 <fizzie> (That's kind of silly too.)
21:14:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, ooh you should take a photo of the root of a hair or some such thing with that setup
21:15:28 <int-e> Vorpal: to be fair, znc.in *is* under znc's developer's control
21:15:46 <Vorpal> * Ping reply from int-e: 0.54 second(s)
21:16:08 <int-e> so why is my own client so slow in answering itself ...
21:16:28 <Vorpal> int-e, try again, maybe it had to load the relevant code from disk or some such?
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21:16:47 <int-e> I've tried several times, the fastest was 2.648 seconds.
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21:17:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140218-ding.jpg -- that's approximately 5-6 mm wide, and the original image width was 5472 pixels.
21:17:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is it of?
21:17:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: The dinged adapter ring I might've shown before, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140203-ding.jpg
21:18:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, and I also took this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140215-mystery.jpg
21:18:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, microscope photography would be cool
21:18:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, quite a mystery
21:18:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, retro-reflector?
21:19:04 <fizzie> Yes. Well, one of those things you hang in your clothes.
21:19:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, exactly, a retro-reflector
21:19:31 <fizzie> It's kind of an overly fancy title, but technically accurate, sure.
21:19:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, one of the flexible ones? Or one of the hard ones that you hang from a pocket?
21:19:47 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140218-ref.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140218-ref2.jpg -- "regular-size images" with the phone.
21:20:09 <Vorpal> Yeah the hard ones tend to have much larger "unit" size
21:20:14 <Vorpal> if you understand what I mean
21:20:19 <int-e> Vorpal: so apparently ctcp replies are processed in an "idle queue", and perhaps my own command makes irssi think I'm busy doing stuff and delays the unimportant reply. That's the best explanation I have without looking at code.
21:20:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, Also, nice morran
21:21:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the less fancy name for retro reflectors in English?
21:21:19 <Vorpal> In Swedish they are called "reflex"
21:22:03 <fizzie> I... well, I don't know if they have one. The Finnish word (heijastin) just translates to "reflector", and you have to grok it means that kind of one from the context.
21:22:28 <fizzie> Google finds me references to "pedestrian reflectors".
21:22:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, That is mårran right?
21:22:50 <fizzie> Or "safety reflectors".
21:22:59 <Phantom__Hoover> stick one on the front of your car and it'll prevent all accidents
21:23:05 <Vorpal> Not sure what the English name of that character is
21:23:19 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, :) Hi
21:23:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. ("Mörkö" in Finnish, apparently "The Groke" in English.)
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21:23:49 <Vorpal> That is a terrible English name
21:24:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: I believe it's derived from "growl", kind of like mårran from morra.
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21:24:39 <Slereah> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Be72GYUCYAAM7Vq.png:large
21:25:08 <Vorpal> Slereah, heh, that is pretty neat
21:25:45 <Vorpal> Slereah, they don't form English words though, do they?
21:25:47 <zzo38> Do you know what "`atts` bit(64) DEFAULT b'1000000000000000000000000000000000'," means in MySQL? That is less than 64 bits.
21:25:48 <fizzie> The Finnish name is the Finnish word for a bogeyman (spöke).
21:26:05 <Vorpal> Slereah, Can't see how that is possible with [CR]* (bottom left) for example
21:26:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: They don't, no.
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21:27:57 <fizzie> I can't remember if I filled out this one or some other one.
21:28:41 <Vorpal> Slereah, or RRRRRRRRRRR or RRRCCC or ...
21:29:42 <fizzie> It's rather hard to make an English word for the R*D*M* either.
21:31:31 <Vorpal> Hm it is not really regular in the mathematical sense of regular expression/regular language
21:31:49 <Vorpal> Near the middle left there is a back reference :/
21:31:56 <Slereah> I guess it's more Linux-type regular
21:32:07 <fizzie> There's a couple of backrefs elsewhere, too.
21:32:09 <Vorpal> POSIX Extended or PCRE
21:33:15 <Vorpal> I wonder if there is a single unique solution, it seems to me quite a few of them are rather general. Like .*H.*H.*
21:33:24 <Vorpal> Or even .* in two places
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21:35:35 <Vorpal> I'm fairly certain there are at least 3 valid alternatives for the upper left corner
21:36:19 <Slereah> Vorpal : I guess the rest is decided by the othe rtwo directions
21:36:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's three clues pertaining to each cell, though. I think that was originally from some MIT thing.
21:36:47 <fizzie> MIT's Mystery Hunt thing, to be more accurate.
21:37:12 <fizzie> If it's the same one, anyway. They've been quite popular after that, there's http://regexcrossword.com/ and so on.
21:37:14 <Slereah> It's not really harder looking than a sudoku really
21:37:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is, and from what I can tell there are multiple viable options for the upper left corner
21:37:30 <Slereah> You just write in the possibilities and cross 'em out
21:38:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Except if the one down-right from it is required to be I, S or H, which would lock also the corner in place.
21:38:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, but looking at it, I don't think it is,
21:39:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, to me it seems like it must be either H or I, because of the [CHMNOR]*I[CHMNOR]* clue.
21:39:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, it must be either N or E, I is not possible indeed
21:40:30 <Vorpal> You mean second on second line must be H or I
21:41:20 <Vorpal> This might be fun to solve, Except for the back referencex
21:42:48 <Vorpal> At least there aren't any zero width assertions
21:44:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually the bottom row appears rather open in many places. It is either C or HH (except for the first cell). Second cell is C, but apart from that there is a lot of .* starting/ending the other two clues
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21:45:17 <Vorpal> Of course, it has to add up to the right number of characters, but even then you have quite a bit of freedom there
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21:45:40 <Vorpal> The last 3 are completely open from what I can tell
21:45:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: ".*" doesn't automatically mean the cell is free, if the rest of the line means it expands to zero characters.
21:46:03 <fizzie> (Though the .*(IN|SE|HI) and such are of course open.)
21:47:08 <fizzie> I don't remember whether I finished or not, but I got at least the majority of it filled with (unless I made a mistake) no ambiguities.
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21:49:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: The third cell of the bottom line seems like another C to me, because of the (HHX|[^HX])* clue on the top-right side.
21:49:47 <Vorpal> Well yeah, I didn't say all of them were open
21:53:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well. For the four rightmost cells of the bottom row, the possibilities are CCCC, CCHH, CHHC, HHCC and HHHH. The ([^EMC]|EM)* clue from top-right rules out the three first, so it's really only open whether the two last are CC or HH. It could be that the choice between those two is enforced by the .*(.)(.)(.)(.)\4\3\2\1.* clue, if the only place where you can fit a 12344321 pattern is ...
21:53:32 <fizzie> ... the beginning, but that's bit too far to go right now. Besides, I wouldn't want to spoil it.
22:05:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, we're going to be doing this kind of a round-trip http://goo.gl/maps/K90Ii at summertime.
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22:06:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, neat you will pass close to me
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22:10:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. (Starting point is a Hertz car rental office.)
22:11:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, One day or several?
22:12:28 <fizzie> A couple; the points with markers are places we'll spend a night (the Kolmården marker is probably not at the hotel, since I just typed in Kolmården), and then one night in Stockholm because of ferry schedules.
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22:13:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't know if there are any tourist attractions of notice near Örebro
22:13:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess Svampen, it is a neat looking water tower with a restaurant at the top
22:13:41 <fizzie> We were going to stop at that Kinaparken place you took pictures of.
22:13:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh nice, I forgot I posted pictures of it
22:14:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, you located it?
22:14:16 <Vorpal> It is a bit off the trodden path as it were
22:14:28 <fizzie> Well, I've found their http://www.bastedalenherrgard.se/?nr=18 site, I haven't looked closer than that yet.
22:14:50 <fizzie> There's a set of GPS coordinates on the page, not sure if those are accurate.
22:15:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, well their "map" (karta) is useless, it shows a google map with no markers...
22:15:53 <Vorpal> Oh the English version has a marker
22:16:00 <Vorpal> Well that is interesting
22:16:04 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. Google Maps does find a "Bastedalens Herrgård", anyway.
22:16:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, try switching with the flag in the upper right corner
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22:16:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it work for you on the English page?
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22:17:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, when were the pictures from? That day with almost no one there?
22:17:39 <fizzie> Yes. With I guess some rain? I don't remember exactly.
22:18:10 <fizzie> Looking at the source (which has had all newlines removed), the English page has markers: [ { latitude: 58.786664143237495, longitude: 14.935569763183594, html: "<p>Bastedalens Herrgård<br />& Kinapark</p>" } ]
22:18:26 <fizzie> While the Swedish one has markers: [ ] in it.
22:19:06 <Vorpal> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=Svampen,+%C3%96rebro&safe=off&hl=en&tbm=isch&imgil=kUBdzYtUsc73FM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcShXZ4_7HMvyJUKTCJtDBQSVuVLeRhJU_Fyb30v6uNuaocsLiET%253B210%253B210%253BRA7tMg1LRX_gCM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.orebro.se%25252F1636.html&source=iu&usg=__uMggZb9-QVnOllVHfHDI19zhEXs%3D&sa=X&ei=DyEJU-C-La
22:19:07 <Vorpal> u_ywPRuoHoCA&ved=0CGUQ9QEwBA&biw=1920&bih=1063#facrc=_&imgrc=kUBdzYtUsc73FM%253A%3BRA7tMg1LRX_gCM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.orebro.se%252Fimages%252F18.3c1ef9ae11d4988e18f800010926%252F210_210_Svampen.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.orebro.se%252F1636.html%3B210%3B210
22:19:33 <Vorpal> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=Svampen,+%C3%96rebro&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=biIJU9KqA4b9ygOF8ILwDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1352&bih=759
22:20:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is in Örebro, a water tower with a restaurant in the top. I heard it was pretty good
22:20:08 <Vorpal> but never tried it myself
22:20:41 <fizzie> Oh, a water tower with gills.
22:21:19 <Vorpal> https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvarntorpsh%C3%B6gen
22:21:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is that too
22:21:41 <fizzie> There's a restaurant on top of a water tower here in Espoo, http://www.finroute.ru/upload/iblock/80a/80ad65c84a906c1b159f012dcaae8f05.jpg
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22:21:54 <fizzie> (Less mushroom, more UFO.)
22:21:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can try to make a summary if you want
22:22:26 <fizzie> I can probably read enough Swedish for Wikipedia articles.
22:23:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, basically they mined skiffer for oil during the second world war
22:23:50 <Vorpal> and that heap is the slag from that
22:24:06 <Vorpal> it is really hot inside. Smoking from parts of it.
22:24:25 <Vorpal> But there is an art exhibition on the top of it nowdays
22:24:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konst_p%C3%A5_H%C3%B6g
22:26:56 <fizzie> For some reason Google Maps (in English) seems to have a lot of names spelled with a lowercase first letter in Sweden.
22:27:03 <fizzie> At least at some zoom levels.
22:27:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, I noticed that too
22:28:05 <fizzie> Some of them seem to be labels that turn into a small-caps font when zoomed in enough.
22:28:43 <fizzie> Though Vättern stays at "vattern | Vättern" (with | denoting a newline) no matter how much I zoom.
22:29:00 <fizzie> (Vänern is just Vänern.)
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22:31:22 <fizzie> Råsunda in Stockholm is also "rasunda" at some zoom levels.
22:33:26 <fizzie> And Saltsjö-Duvnäs is first "saltsjoduvnas" and then later "SALTSJODUVNAS". It's like their small-caps labels can't do diacritics or punctuation at all.
22:33:37 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/om7LJLQ.jpg
22:33:51 <olsner> Vorpal: "Herrgård & Kinapark"?
22:35:10 <fizzie> olsner: Based on the pictures, "Herrgård" sounds a bit grandiose. Though I guess it applies to most things that have enough own land around.
22:35:15 <olsner> Chinese Garden sounds sane though, I almost expected a chinese theme park or something
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22:35:45 <Vorpal> olsner, there is a herrgård near there iirc
22:36:52 <fizzie> They do rent rooms and apartments, but we sort of thought that perhaps not.
22:38:05 <fizzie> (Why do they have a "finger" mouse pointer for the background rectangles of the navigation menu when only the text labels are actually clickable?)
22:38:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably not pro at web design?
22:39:35 <fizzie> "<meta name='ttttt' content='tttt'>
22:39:55 <fizzie> I guess their ttttt is tttt.
22:42:39 <fizzie> ion: But what about the polygon counts in the models, huh?
22:44:48 <Vorpal> ion, oh god, is that what the new Thief is like?
22:45:04 <Vorpal> Hm did it release already? I thought it was next week
22:45:48 <Vorpal> ion, I would suggest playing Dishonored instead, that has pretty good level design
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22:51:53 <fizzie> It's not really called "Thi4f", right?
22:52:12 <fizzie> I think it's just "Thief".
22:53:54 <int-e> regular expression crosswords spoiler: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/recross.png
22:54:26 <int-e> tedious, but in the end the solution was unique :)
22:55:36 <fizzie> Oh, the corner we were discussing was indeed from the 12344321 rule.
22:58:53 <int-e> (and what have they done to the text tool in gimp? it used to be usable for just adding a single character to a picture...)
22:59:10 <quintopia> eusjfryeuwigevhfye73isekdhfuiehduiboilyshaouisdhudisk
23:01:50 <int-e> And since that was incomprehensible, it used to be possible to have text centered around the position where one clicked. Now, apparently, the position one clicks becomes the upper left corner of a text box. annoying.
23:03:48 <zzo38> I like this idea of "regular expression crosswords"
23:08:24 <quintopia> (i know you won't, but could you?)
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23:08:55 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know
23:10:16 <quintopia> hmm, i bet they could be generated automagically
23:10:34 <Phantom__Hoover> ion, to be fair people were coming out with all sorts of dire predictions before human revolution came out, and it was pretty great in the end
23:13:33 <ion> vorpal: Yeah, i liked Dishonored.
23:13:43 <ion> vorpal: I did a ghost run.
23:14:17 <ion> I did one in Human Revolution, too.
23:14:38 <Phantom__Hoover> problem with dishonored (also with hr to a lesser extent) is that ghosting is kind of depicted as the 'right' choice
23:15:19 <Phantom__Hoover> in dishonored's case this is a problem because killing people is really damn fun, in hr it's a problem because if you get spotted it's really hard not to just think of it as a failure and quickload
23:17:20 <Phantom__Hoover> (i have been trying to replay hr recently without just ghosting it and it's not been that fun)
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00:12:38 <oerjan> there clearly should be more std*s to choose among
00:14:15 <oerjan> shikhin: i suppose you could branch out to c header file names
00:17:11 <oerjan> <boily> nothing like washing the dishes to singe off a few skin layers on your fingers... <-- i see two options (1) use less boily water (2) use gloves
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00:22:30 <oerjan> quite splitty today. i am reading codu and tunes logs in parallel. tunes managed to pick up some of Sgeo's lines twice.
00:23:28 <oerjan> and then tunes leaves off for hours.
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00:38:26 <oerjan> he didn't mean you but our welcoming bot
00:38:47 <fungot> : Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try ...
00:39:04 <Node_492> ohh it's esoteric programming language design...
00:39:26 <Node_492> I never really got into computer programming
00:39:28 <oerjan> oh right we tried putting a backup message on fungot but it's cutting the line too short
00:39:28 <fungot> oerjan: if so, call this command with that person's nick. :) hopefully i can get freedom by spending some extra ram i'm all for that
00:39:51 <oerjan> i guess it works for desperate times
00:40:04 <int-e> Node_492: the bot would have said: "Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)", but with way too many colors.
00:40:52 <Node_492> I thought this channel was going to be about esoteric discussion/texts
00:41:07 <int-e> oerjan: oh. I have to remember that fungot knows about this, too.
00:41:07 <fungot> int-e: there is a complete waste of time. i just used the manpage on linux), so that's 1+0, or 1 week the other way
00:41:38 <int-e> then again, redundancy hardly ever hurts. then again, redundancy hardly ever hurts.
00:41:42 <Taneb> It saddens me that it seems the only thing I care about enough to actually get into an argument about is whether redstone is TC or not
00:42:26 <oerjan> Taneb: hm you must be another one of my mirror twins.
00:42:42 <Taneb> oerjan, which side do you take
00:43:21 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't play minecraft, but doesn't redstone have bounded memory?
00:43:43 <Taneb> Yes, which nobody else seems to grasp
00:44:21 <Node_492> anybody want to teach me programming?
00:44:27 <Phantom__Hoover> except that time it was the human brain, which was just sad
00:44:28 <fungot> oerjan: i'm not talking about syntax now...) sends " fnord" this'?
00:44:35 <oerjan> 's message was eerily relevant
00:44:40 <zzo38> Node_492: What programs, and what programming languages?
00:44:50 <int-e> oerjan: the waste of time one?
00:44:53 <Node_492> no idea I mean the most basic I suppose
00:45:05 <Node_492> I am interested in audio programs though
00:45:07 <Phantom__Hoover> your primary way of learning to program is to google "<topic> tutorial"
00:45:10 <Node_492> as I'm an audio engineer for my day job
00:45:18 <Node_492> and deal with audio plugin VSTs within DAWs
00:45:25 <Node_492> and could make a good amount of money off of those
00:45:43 <Phantom__Hoover> often these tutorials will be shit and inaccurate; your second lesson in a programmer is how to furiously defend whatever arbitrary preferences and habits you've now picked up
00:45:48 <int-e> Phantom__Hoover: wow. it works for malbolge. http://www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.shtml
00:46:07 <Node_492> right but I'm on a mac, would learning to program really benefit my life?
00:46:34 <elliott> programming is unpleasant and programmers moreso
00:46:39 <Node_492> can't I just learn some fun tricks in the terminal or something
00:47:03 <oerjan> int-e: no the one about "call this command with that person's nick", which is just what i forgot to do with ^welcome
00:47:04 <Node_492> programming doesn't have to be a drag does it?
00:47:12 <Phantom__Hoover> fun tricks in the terminal are the gateway drug to programming!
00:47:29 <oerjan> (mind you that would have just cut it off even more)
00:47:57 <Node_492> so what do you guys do for programming?
00:48:16 <zzo38> I program in many programming languages.
00:48:36 <oerjan> Node_492: your programming question seems to have brought out the channel's cynics :P
00:48:36 <zzo38> I can list some if you want
00:48:43 <Node_492> could you try to get a blockchain.info account code and password
00:48:53 <Node_492> would that be possible for you?
00:49:16 <zzo38> Node_492: I don't think so.
00:49:19 <Node_492> I'm asking if your programming skills coule do it
00:49:29 <Node_492> so if I can't even get an account password and shit
00:49:43 <Node_492> then this programming thing is just pebble bits
00:49:46 <oerjan> Node_492: you seem to be confused about what programming is for
00:49:55 <Node_492> like would any of you guys be able to program for my computer to shut off
00:50:21 <zzo38> Node_492: What operating system do you use? In order to do that, I would not only need to know the operating system but your computer needs to run a program to listen for that command.
00:50:34 <nortti> most probably not, if not for some social engineering
00:50:42 <Node_492> there's no way to get into my terminal and make it install itself?
00:50:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Node_492, you will literally die if you don't turn off your computer asap
00:51:02 <zzo38> Node_492: There *might* me.
00:51:10 <zzo38> It depends how it is configured.
00:51:29 <Node_492> say I want a program that picks up sound frequencies and tells me what key the tone is in
00:51:33 <Node_492> would any of you guys be able to do it
00:51:48 <zzo38> Node_492: Does your computer have a microphone?
00:52:02 <zzo38> I think there probably are existing programs to do that anyways.
00:52:23 <Node_492> I'm just trying to see if I can do anything with programming
00:52:24 <zzo38> I probably could if I researched it enough
00:52:55 <Node_492> programming is the #1 job market next to lawyers and engineers
00:53:07 <Node_492> it's just pretty interesting to me
00:53:16 <Node_492> I thought programming was a bit more powerful
00:53:24 <Node_492> or I thought hacking was easier
00:53:41 <zzo38> I do not completely understand you. Powerful in what ways?
00:53:56 <int-e> Ooh, buzz-wordy. "Most modern spectrum analyzers are now almost exclusively Hybrid Superheterodyne-FFT based giving a significant improvement in sweep time."
00:54:00 <Node_492> like the best programmer in ze world
00:54:14 <Node_492> would they be able to shut off internet servers remotely
00:54:30 <Node_492> or is that all fake and you actually would have to have physical access to the servers
00:54:31 <int-e> Node_492: it's not cool. they might, but where's the fun?
00:54:34 <zzo38> Node_492: It depends what they have access to.
00:54:46 <Node_492> what if they have access to the whereabouts of the secret princess
00:55:04 <zzo38> It isn't something I know anything about.
00:55:54 <oerjan> Node_492: i don't care about hacking or other criminal activities, so i've never bothered to learn any more than vague theory about it. i'm sure many people here on the channel are the same.
00:56:08 <zzo38> Well, I read 2600.
00:56:16 <Node_492> what's something cool you could do with programming
00:56:26 <Node_492> I guess you could do stuff like automate the sprinkler times
00:56:27 <zzo38> I have no interest in committing any crimes, but the information can be used for other purposes too.
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00:56:36 <zzo38> Node_492: Yes, if it is connected to a sprinkler.
00:56:43 <Node_492> I'm just trying to understand it's usefulness
00:56:51 <zzo38> Otherwise you can't do it anymore than you can shut off a server remotely.
00:56:53 <elliott> have you ever used a computer?
00:56:56 -!- eupatheia has left.
00:57:11 <elliott> you're just trolling, right?
00:57:27 <Node_492> as that's what my generation got
00:58:02 <zzo38> Smartphones aren't as good as a proper computer
00:58:02 <int-e> (a computing device, if you will. but for all intents and purposes, it's a universal machine running software, that is, programs.)
00:58:14 <zzo38> But yes it is a computer.
00:58:26 <int-e> (the downside is that vendors will lock it down and make it hard to run your own software on.)
00:58:39 <Node_492> getting my phone fixed right now
00:58:58 <Node_492> so I thought maybe learning a bit of programming would help future events like that
00:59:42 <Node_492> so say I learned all the programming in the world
00:59:51 <Node_492> would I theoretically be able to make my own smartphone OS
00:59:51 <int-e> It really doesn't. Even if you have a better understanding of what's going wrong, you'll still be locked out. (And generally you'll be unable to collect the necessary information, again for lack of access to the device.)
01:00:11 <int-e> programmers write operating systems and apps.
01:00:28 <int-e> they're not found written on stone tablets
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01:01:10 <Node_492> wtf is requested ctcp version from node_492
01:01:14 <int-e> "CTCP" is "client-to-client protocol", a method for encoding queries to IRC clients on top of IRC messages.
01:01:29 <Node_492> so what's elliot trying to do...?
01:01:46 <int-e> somebody was interested in your IRC client software, and asked it about it. nothing happened, it's normal.
01:02:21 <Node_492> I work as a audio forensics person
01:02:24 <int-e> it's like reading a name plate on a door bell.
01:02:35 <Node_492> and we have technology at our base that allows us to do some wicked stuff
01:02:41 <Node_492> I thought programmers were savvy on it
01:03:09 <Node_492> like I can take out certain frequencies/sounds from an audio source and isolate it
01:03:24 <int-e> some programmers are. programmers specialize. and of course some are better at what they are doing than others.
01:04:45 <int-e> You'd implement some sort of band filter. I've never needed one, so I'd hit google with those keywords. (I know it can be done with FFT, but that's probably overkill in this case.)
01:05:44 <Node_492> no I already know how to do it
01:05:52 <Node_492> I have software specifically for audio forensics
01:05:59 <Node_492> I was just wondering how hard it is to make my own
01:06:09 <Node_492> I'd probably need 3 years of learning and a 10 man team
01:06:59 <Node_492> if you guys give me an audio file I can prove my skillz
01:08:30 <oerjan> Node_492: i'd think once you know basic programming, the hard part of audio forensics is learning the mathematical theory of sound waves.
01:08:50 <Node_492> I'm sure there's algorithms already though
01:09:01 <Node_492> as the funamentals of tone and frequency are all in textbooks
01:09:02 <oerjan> yes, those are of course based on the math.
01:09:45 <Node_492> we've been doing this new thing called circuitry emulation
01:09:52 <Node_492> where we take an old vintage analog piece of hardware
01:10:06 <Node_492> through convultion and many other means
01:10:12 <Node_492> and create a software version of the hardware
01:10:30 <int-e> (Hey, I was going to suggest that I could simulate an actual band pass filter circuit, then erased that remark.)
01:10:39 <Node_492> I think they do it by hardware that picks up the vintage gear's mathmatics
01:11:03 <Node_492> I can do that with a simple equalizer
01:11:17 <Node_492> anyway, what I was getting at is
01:11:30 <Node_492> are there hardware/gear that helps programmers out
01:11:45 <Node_492> by say, figuring out equations for them and whatnot that they might need within their programming
01:11:50 <Node_492> besides a calculator I suppose
01:13:57 <int-e> I don't know, perhaps things like the signal processing toolbox for matlab (is there some open source software like that?)
01:14:11 <oerjan> my impression is _most_ programmers (i'm not actually a professional one) do web programming, which doesn't require much equations.
01:14:32 <oerjan> (and is also probably boring.)
01:16:07 <fizzie> Octave's got some of MATLAB's filter design bits implemented.
01:16:20 <fizzie> And I'm sure there are programmers in the world that have used Mathematica.
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01:16:40 <elliott> do apple stores really use what looks like residential ADSL for their internet connections?
01:17:11 <Node_492> it's not an official mac store
01:17:17 <Node_492> it's just a repair shop in the city
01:17:26 <int-e> I imagine that starting with something high-level that offers, say, filters that can be plugged together, and then exploring the internals of a filter and writing your own, will be far less frustrating than starting from the bottom, where anything more complex than a 'hello world!' will be a challenge initially.
01:17:39 <Node_492> anyway the matlabs filter design and signal processing is EXACTLY what I was looking for
01:17:42 <elliott> there are third-partyi Phone repair shops?
01:18:04 <Phantom__Hoover> we don't have a mac store in edinburgh, we have some 3rd-party place
01:18:04 <oerjan> which don't void apple's warranty?
01:18:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, not sure if it's coincidence that I managed to reconnect after adding chat.freenode.net:6667 and making the chat.freenode.net:7000 config use SSL
01:18:37 <fizzie> oerjan: If you keep quiet about it.
01:18:37 <Sgeo> The successful connection seems to have been to 6665, which it was alraedy trying to go to
01:18:39 <Sgeo> And SASL didn't seem like it was helping before
01:19:18 <fizzie> oerjan: "I don't know why there's a rude message scratched into the internal components of the phone, it must've been like that when it left the factory."
01:19:23 <int-e> Sgeo: a coincidence is likely, since chat.freenode.net resolves to several IP addresses.
01:19:57 <Node_492> do any of you guys use DAWs with VSTs/AUs?
01:20:02 <fizzie> It is true that freenode's 7000 is SSL-only, though.
01:20:15 <int-e> (hmm, but it could be worth checking whether some of the servers listen to non-6667 ports only)
01:20:16 <Node_492> it's all programming and probably one of the most popular up and coming sectors of programming
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01:21:54 <int-e> "digital audio workstation", "virtual studio technology", "audio unit". No.
01:22:42 <zzo38> Not with VST, DAW, and AU, though.
01:22:42 <Taneb> God, I feel like crap
01:23:01 <Sgeo> fizzie: but I don't seem to be connected to 7000
01:23:35 <Node_492> so is Csound almost like a sound modulator that you can program?
01:23:39 <zzo38> I also wrote extensions to Csound, and a program CsoundMML to compile the score.
01:24:07 * oerjan guesses on "almost, except not almost"
01:24:36 <fizzie> There are quite a few "audio programming languages" around. Pure Data is another well-known one.
01:24:44 <fizzie> Well, for some values of "well known".
01:24:55 <fizzie> (In the "I've heard of it" sense.)
01:25:00 <Node_492> so say I get good at coding in one of these programs
01:25:20 <Node_492> I make programs for other people to use or something
01:27:10 <fizzie> I'd guesstimate that most users of Csound/Pd are just doing music-y things for their own amusement.
01:27:52 <fizzie> And/or sound-related research, could be handy tools there too.
01:28:36 <Node_492> so programming is difficult in my opinion without a GUI
01:29:01 <Node_492> programming things would be so much better if they had GUIs
01:29:19 <zzo38> I prefer it without a GUI, but that is due to preference
01:29:47 <Node_492> you can't undo/go back type thing
01:30:29 <int-e> it's one of those 1-2-3 things: 1. learn programming. 2. ... 3. profit!
01:30:58 <Node_492> do any of you guys earn money from programming
01:31:14 <int-e> In the meantime, programmers who know a bit of C can laught about https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhEuZKmCcAAcPAS.png
01:31:26 <fizzie> int-e: Now that I look at it, Octave-Forge's "signal" package seems to have grown to cover a lot more of MATLAB compared to what it used to.
01:31:26 <Node_492> and how do you even approach people for jobs
01:32:08 <Node_492> hey int-e, that's not a stab at me is it??
01:32:29 <int-e> companies have websites. say, https://www.apple.com/jobs/us/
01:32:35 <Phantom__Hoover> int-e, so that works out as a goto fail that will always be executed, right?
01:32:50 <int-e> Phantom__Hoover: yes!
01:33:05 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: I'm sure Python people are already using this as a proof for their superiority.
01:33:42 <int-e> fizzie: interesting.
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01:35:09 <int-e> Node_492: The point of the 1-2-3 thing is really that there are many ways in which programming may come in handy. You can work as a programmer, you can do consulting, you can do something entirely different and automate a couple of data processing tasks. You can program for others, or you can make tools for yourself. It's hard to say which is the way to go.
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01:35:52 <fizzie> Can you get indentation-does-not-match-logic warnings out of any mainstream compiler and/or lint tool?
01:36:26 <Node_492> I kinda want to get into it but it seems a bit too daunting
01:36:34 <fizzie> (I'm sure something like StyleCop would've just generally warned about the lack of braces or something.)
01:37:29 <fizzie> (Oh http://www.stylecop.com/docs/SA1503.html yes it would have.)
01:38:36 <Node_492> do any of you guys know about an esoterica IRC channel
01:38:41 <int-e> Node_492: That is certainly true. Then again, learning anything in more than superficial detail is daunting.
01:39:03 <Node_492> but the notion of programming on a black screen with no GUI
01:39:13 <Node_492> asking the hottest cheerleader out at school
01:39:17 <int-e> you don't have to do that.
01:39:25 <int-e> [my terminals are black on white ;-) ...]
01:39:44 <Node_492> and so through programming in the terminal
01:40:05 <Node_492> what if I were to start programming and create a GUI for my own programming thing
01:40:30 <Node_492> buttons so I don't have to type out long commands
01:40:32 <int-e> You can use existing guis.
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01:44:33 <Node_492> and he fucking throttled my internet connection for MONTHS
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01:54:30 <oerjan> <Node_492> do any of you guys know about an esoterica IRC channel <-- the end of our welcoming message which got cut off mentions #esoteric on the dalnet network, which is sort of where we've agreed to point people who ask (we haven't found any better channel). although last i heard it was very quiet.
01:55:08 <shachaf> you may also be interested in roald dahl
01:55:58 * oerjan remembers and swats shachaf -----###
01:56:02 <zzo38> Or just ask whatever questions you have here; maybe nobody knows, but they are recorded so you can look later
01:56:54 <Node_492> nah I just wanted to have a discussion on stuff other than programming
01:57:02 <Node_492> I came onto IIRC to just socialize
01:57:04 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm not sure that's a very good idea.
01:57:10 <Node_492> but I forgot that it's mainly programmers talking to each other
01:57:17 <zzo38> Yes it is mainly programming
01:57:22 <zzo38> But we do discuss various things here.
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01:57:30 <zzo38> Probably nobody knows the answer though
01:57:37 <FreeFull> I once made a GUI for xmms2 in kommander
01:57:37 <zzo38> So better idea would be to look elsewhere
01:57:40 <Node_492> I don't have any questions really
01:57:41 <oerjan> Node_492: you are on the freenode IRC network. it is even more mainly programmers than other irc networks.
01:57:43 <int-e> Node_492: it's IRC, "Internet Relay Chat. "IIRC" is "if I remember correctly".
01:58:14 <zzo38> Yes, Freenode is mainly programming
01:58:21 <Node_492> wtf is the different between IRC and IIRC
01:58:25 <int-e> (There was a quote missing.)
01:58:34 <int-e> one is three letters. the other one has four.
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01:59:10 <int-e> > let (irc,iirc) = (0,1) in irc == iirc
01:59:13 <oerjan> Node_492: irc is a way to chat. iirc is an abbreviation to use while chatting. hth
02:00:11 <int-e> oerjan: "hth" dnh, I suspect :)
02:00:36 <Node_492> so what's the irc everybody uses for discussion/socializing?
02:00:48 <zzo38> It depends what you want to discuss.
02:01:11 <Node_492> I'm just trying to find interesting stuff
02:01:26 <oerjan> int-e: imo you cannot be right hth
02:01:34 <zzo38> Well, there is interesting stuff in this channel, but I don't know if it interests you or not.
02:01:40 <Node_492> reddit/4chan and all those bought out travistock operations are becoming mind numbingly bad like the six o' clock news
02:02:05 <int-e> oerjan: that's sobering. I thought I had a chance of being right on occasion.
02:02:17 <oerjan> Node_492: reddit isn't so bad if you find a medium low size channel
02:02:27 <oerjan> it's the big ones that are truly crap
02:02:31 <Node_492> yeah but then it becomes so specialized
02:02:38 <Node_492> you can't talk about anything BUT that topic
02:03:07 <oerjan> yeah alas the best subreddits are the ones that are strictly on topic
02:03:19 <oerjan> Node_492: irc.dal.net supposedly
02:03:25 <Node_492> yeah but that defeats the whole purpose of general discussion/socialization
02:03:44 <Node_492> sure it's cool for strict discussions
02:03:52 <Node_492> but not a great place to just chat
02:03:59 <zzo38> General discussion/socialization isn't the best idea; better to ask a specific question.
02:04:21 <oerjan> i've never looked much to places for general chat so i don't know how to find the good ones if they exist
02:04:41 <Node_492> I've been looking for years since usernet
02:04:47 <Node_492> and they've all gotten shut down
02:05:04 <Node_492> or moved onto private invite only message boards
02:05:48 <Node_492> all the plebs are left on reddit/facebook and the content from it is ruining my brain
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02:08:32 <oerjan> to me, reddit is the closest thing i know to usenet as it was
02:09:29 <zzo38> But are there NNTP servers for Reddit?
02:10:37 <oerjan> zzo38: that's not what i mean by "closest", i mean socially, not technically.
02:11:01 <Node_492> you guys are so caught up on the technical stuff
02:11:40 <zzo38> That is impossible.
02:11:59 <Node_492> you have yet to understand the yin and yang
02:12:11 <Node_492> without balance you will be leading a life of self destruction
02:12:11 <zzo38> I know yin and yang a bit
02:12:27 <int-e> Sorry. We are really not into that sort of esoterics.
02:12:39 <oerjan> Node_492: curiously, zzo38 is probably the one on this channel who knows most about astrology, despite not believing in it.
02:12:43 <zzo38> I do know some things of yin and yang
02:13:02 <oerjan> and it's my fault too.
02:13:36 <oerjan> (i once made a web page with a horoscope for a game i played, with a link to astrolog software)
02:13:36 <zzo38> Well, I don't have any intention for you to read any natal charts at least
02:13:40 <Node_492> anybody into the works of Carl Jung?
02:13:49 <zzo38> I have heard of Carl Jung.
02:13:58 <oerjan> Node_492: i used to be a little
02:14:17 <zzo38> I can't agree or disagree, since I haven't much other than heard of it.
02:14:31 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and I wanted to learn what all of the lines and symbols meant. Now I know.
02:14:34 <metasepia> LOWI 230150Z AUTO 27003KT 9999 OVC070 M01/M02 Q1023
02:15:02 <Node_492> do you want to read my natal chart for kicks?
02:15:27 <zzo38> Node_492: If you want; I don't really care.
02:15:40 <zzo38> If you want my opinion of it then of course that is the only way
02:15:43 <Node_492> hold on, I'll get the graph right now
02:15:45 <int-e> oh, boring. "fully automated report"
02:16:00 <zzo38> Now I know that "Node" is an ascending lunar node, meaning intersection point on the ecliptic with the Moon's orbit
02:16:31 <zzo38> And now I know what astrological signs mean, what house systems mean, and why it used a different symbol for Pluto than I was used to (I prefe the "PL" symbol though)
02:17:16 <zzo38> And where the names "Tropic of Cancer" and "Tropic of Capricorn" come from.
02:17:30 <zzo38> I didn't know that before, and due to something oerjan wrote, I was curious and now I learned.
02:18:13 <Node_492> http://www.astro.com/tmpd/cbnlfile7a1elM-u1393121875/astro_w2gw_01_freenode492_3_hp.8276.28993.gif
02:18:52 <oerjan> well for one thing, it blows your claim to be 16 hth
02:19:21 <Node_492> you think a 16 year old would know anything about carl jung?
02:19:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Not if it isn't for your birth.
02:19:46 <zzo38> But yes, you do make a good point.
02:19:49 <oerjan> no, none of us really believed you were 16 but i find it funny nevertheless
02:20:35 <oerjan> (although i remember a couple of ridiculously smart 16 year olds on the channel from before, right elliott)
02:20:36 <zzo38> Well, I prefer the Astrolog format (which is formatted a bit differently), but this works too.
02:20:54 <zzo38> Anyways, Astrolog also calculates Julian day numbers.
02:21:25 <int-e> oerjan: but knowing about usenet was too much. *g*
02:21:36 <oerjan> int-e: oh right i missed that clue
02:21:45 <elliott> actually, being 16 was one of the few things I believed that Node_492 said
02:22:00 <zzo38> Julian day numbers are a form of timestamp where the day begins at noon in Greenwich. The reason for that is so that the day number doesn't change while observing the stars.
02:22:04 <Node_492> don't even try to start discerning my fabrications
02:22:24 <zzo38> But I do undertsand everything on that chart you linked to
02:23:09 <zzo38> I don't think it tells much personality wise. I am not an astrologer.
02:23:39 <Node_492> not in the context of 'your moon is here'
02:23:47 <Node_492> but I mean what information can you extract from it?
02:23:59 <zzo38> Well, I can extract the phase of moon from it.
02:24:25 <zzo38> Yes I can see that.
02:24:37 <zzo38> But the phase of moon is the difference in ecliptic longitude between the sun and moon.
02:24:59 <zzo38> It looks to be almost a full moon.
02:25:27 <oerjan> btw those are a _lot_ of planets in capricorn.
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02:26:05 <zzo38> Well, maybe it has an effect on personality, but not any I know of. It certainly has effects on lighting conditions, tides, etc.
02:26:26 <zzo38> I can see five objects in Capricorn.
02:26:50 <zzo38> I don't know how common it is. I asked similar questions actually.
02:27:09 <oerjan> Node_492: well it would be common for anyone born around that time i guess
02:27:30 <Node_492> for the general populace I suppose
02:27:42 <Node_492> anybody want me to read their charts?
02:28:08 <zzo38> Node_492: I don't make that information public, nor do I care much. When I have the horoscope on my screen, I usually use the one for the current moment/place, which is more useful to me.
02:28:35 <Node_492> could someone perhaps do ill with that information?
02:28:42 <Node_492> or you just don't want anybody to know
02:29:01 <zzo38> Node_492: I just don't want anybody to know. I don't really expect anyone can do ill with that information.
02:29:41 <Node_492> so is there any impression from the chart?
02:29:47 <Node_492> I mean you haven't really told me anything...
02:30:46 <zzo38> If you want that, you would have to ask a different channel with astrologers. I don't believe in all that stuff, so I can only tell you what it means in terms of positions, and how they affect mundane matters, such as phase of moon and so on.
02:30:54 <zzo38> And equinoxes and solstices.
02:31:04 <zzo38> And rising and so on.
02:31:41 <Node_492> well do I have any significance in those aspects?
02:32:38 <zzo38> The equinoxes are when the Sun is at 0 Aries or 0 Libra. Solstices are when the Sun is at 0 Cancer or 0 Capricorn (these correspond to the tropics of the same names). I can see it isn't an equinox or solstice at the time charted.
02:32:49 <oerjan> the one thing i notice is your moon and sun are close to in opposition (not sure if they're in technical sense), which i vaguely recall means your emotions may be in conflict with your soul and true purpose hth
02:33:08 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I noticed that too, which is why I said, it is almost a full moon.
02:33:17 <Node_492> capricorns are said to be 'contradictory'
02:33:22 <zzo38> That's what sun-moon opposition means to *me*, at least.
02:34:01 <Node_492> well I appreciate the technical aspects of it
02:34:08 <int-e> zzo38: hmm, what's the orientation of the chart, do the sun and moon move counterclockwise?
02:34:13 <zzo38> People have used these astrological interpretations to make up features of fictional characters/stories, and that is a perfectly legitimate use of it; if it is your story, do it whatever way you want.
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02:34:47 <zzo38> Other objects, since they don't orbit the Earth, sometimes go in the other direction.
02:35:06 <oerjan> perhaps with the other planets clustering close one could say that your emotions are in conflict with _several_ other aspects of your personality, which on the other hand fit together.
02:35:18 <int-e> zzo38: tsk. what did you just say about the sun? :)
02:35:40 <int-e> zzo38: but yes, that's why I asked about the sun and moon only.
02:35:51 <zzo38> int-e: I said the sun and moon move in the counterclockwise (which is positive) direction of the chart.
02:36:10 <zzo38> The "zero point" is the beginning of the "Aries" sign.
02:36:10 <int-e> zzo38: but the sun does not orbit Earth.
02:36:23 <int-e> zzo38: though it's hard to tell the difference.
02:36:26 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, but the Earth orbits Sun, and using relative positions it works out the same way.
02:37:21 <zzo38> I have used the horoscopes in my computer to calculate when is Chinese New Year, to calculate the exact times of equinoxes and solstices, to predict phases of moon and (to some degree) eclipses, and various things like that.
02:37:28 <int-e> zzo38: I know. I just can't help it, I must nitpick anyway.
02:37:29 <zzo38> They do a lot of things!
02:37:54 <Node_492> oerjan, anything else besides the contradictory thing?
02:38:01 <zzo38> int-e: Yes. I didn't actually say the Sun orbits the Earth; I only said that the other planets don't orbit the Earth.
02:38:17 <Node_492> I don't take it too seriously but symbolically I don't ignore it
02:39:25 <int-e> zzo38: you got me there. "sometimes" translates to "never" in the case of the sun.
02:39:50 <zzo38> int-e: Yes. But the Sun isn't a planet. Since the Earth orbits the Sun, it doesn't go backward.
02:42:24 <zzo38> Astrolog has many different charts it can generate. Such as, the standard horoscope chart, with the circle and the ecliptic longitude of objects on the circle (you can tell it to plot right ascension instead if you want), or the "ephemeris chart", which plots time on the vertical axis and ecliptic longitude (or right ascension) on the horizontal axis.
02:43:59 <zzo38> Some things can be seen better using the "harmonic factors", which means all ecliptic longitudes are multipled by a factor. This can be useful to see many things, on any chart type. For example if you use harmonic factor 2 in the ephemeris chart, you can see both new moons and full moons as lines crossing.
02:44:21 <oerjan> Node_492: i'm not really an astrologer so i don't remember clearly what the planets other than sun and moon represent. i notice jupiter is there with the moon opposing the others (except mars), i _think_ it has something to do with governing, being the king of the gods and all.
02:44:45 <oerjan> like the superego maybe?
02:45:04 <Node_492> JUPITER IN CANCER IN Cancer, Jupiter is in the house of his exaltation; and that sign being above all a symbol of pleasure, we may naturally expect that it will bring out the truly "jovial" qualities of the planet. This is undoubtedly the case; the native is good-humored, benevolent, and humane; the emotional nature and the imagination are strong; but the pleasantest qualities are more evident in the nativities of private persons than in
02:45:12 <zzo38> I am not an astrologer either. But I can tell you what interpretations are built into Astrolog, if you want this information.
02:45:41 <zzo38> Psychologically, you would ask, do you think that describes you or not? To what degree?
02:45:46 <oerjan> oh right i've forgot all about the astrological signs.
02:45:53 <zzo38> Certainly it can result in questions, if nothing else.
02:46:08 <zzo38> (questions to ask to yourself about your personality, that is)
02:46:13 <Node_492> I've been doing this for some time now
02:46:21 <Node_492> I just wanted to understand your guy's level of knowledge
02:46:30 <Node_492> like zzo's ability to read into different charts
02:46:53 <Node_492> and I'm wondering why in the world would you take the time to learn all that
02:47:39 <int-e> on that level, leaving all the astrology aside, it's applied geometry.
02:47:50 <int-e> I can see a certain appeal to that :)
02:48:17 <zzo38> Well, we don't know much; this isn't an astrology IRC. If you want more you have to look elsewhere. But I can tell you only *objectively* what it means. I don't know about the subjective meanings of these things and am not much interested. Like they said, I don't believe in astrology either, but I understand enough to tell you whether or not you can actually tell your sun sign by your date (not time) of birth, and so on.
02:49:00 <Node_492> I'm just wondering why you even know all that
02:49:33 <zzo38> I have in fact advised someone on this, since they were curious. On the day he was born, the sun passed from one sign to another, so without knowing the time of birth I cannot tell you what your sun sign is. This information isn't useful to me, but it is nevertheless a true or false statement.
02:49:57 <zzo38> Node_492: Because I was curious what the symbols on the chart meant, and I studied it, so I learned.
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02:52:17 <zzo38> And allows to figure out things. I learn astronomy too, but also the astrological conventions. Both kinds of conventions are useful, actually; most astronomers don't know astrological conventions (causing them to dismiss astrology for invalid reasons), and have no use for them, but a few astronomers find them useful! (Note: I am neither an astrologer nor an astronomer.)
02:52:36 <Bike> so are we done with the dos now
02:52:56 <oerjan> sorry Bike, dos is forever
02:53:11 <zzo38> A lot of people in this channel do somewhat unusual things though, especially myself.
02:53:14 <Node_492> funny zzo, I studied astronomy in college which is why I'm interested in it
02:53:30 <Node_492> but you seem to know the formula for more than what even my professors knew
02:53:38 <zzo38> However, we are mainly mathematically and scientifically minded.
02:53:55 <Node_492> don't ignore the right brain guys
02:53:59 <Bike> zzo38: do you think that anatomists dismiss haruspicy for invalid reasons
02:54:04 <zzo38> Node_492: The reason may be because, like I said, most astronomers don't know about astrological conventions.
02:54:05 <Node_492> or you'll creatively regret it for the rest of your dull life
02:54:09 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know what that means.
02:54:18 <Node_492> what do you mean astrological conventions?
02:54:40 <zzo38> Node_492: I agree with you there; I do creative stuff too, and I do music too, but I am *mainly* mathematically/scientifically minded, not entirely.
02:55:14 <zzo38> Node_492: I mean things like house systems, ayanamsha, etc, which are all perfectly objective things.
02:55:43 <zzo38> Ayanamsha is the Sanskrit word for the amount of the precession of equinoxes.
02:55:44 <Node_492> these are like astrological events right?
02:55:45 <Bike> haruspicy is telling the future using animal entrails.
02:56:09 <zzo38> Bike: Not something I knew, but still I cannot answer your question.
02:57:06 <zzo38> Node_492: I do music, but not using a DAW.
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02:57:39 <oerjan> Bike: i think haruspicy would be somehow analogous to astrology in this respect if haruspices [sp?] had somehow named the animal organs in a way similar to but subtly different than anatomists.
02:58:01 <zzo38> I don't have any microphone on my computer; I generally use Music Macro Language to write a text file and then compile it.
02:58:15 <zzo38> It is different than how many people work, but is what is best way for me.
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02:58:31 <zzo38> I study a lot of things.
02:58:41 <Node_492> you turn a text file into music?
02:59:30 <zzo38> Yes, I can play piano.
03:01:31 <Node_492> do any of you guys use bitcoin?
03:02:01 <Node_492> i'm thinking of starting to accept it for my business but it's pretty lulz
03:02:44 <zzo38> I myself don't use bitcoin (maybe my computer is not fast enough to run it anyways)
03:03:02 <Node_492> I don't think anybodys computer is fast enough for mining these days
03:03:29 <Node_492> I don't know if you guys remember but back in the day there were these folding services
03:03:37 <newsham> with all the cyberthefts, they should calling it "yoursing"
03:03:44 <Node_492> where you would have your computer run cancer cell tests
03:03:55 <Node_492> and put it in some database or something for university research
03:03:57 <zzo38> Something I have said before is that, a purpose of chiromancy (a.k.a. palmistry) is to know what all of the lines on your hand are called.
03:04:04 <Node_492> anyway, prime kinda started it
03:04:10 <newsham> seti at home, folding at home, rsa at home
03:04:21 <Node_492> but I was thinking of starting a coin that had some beneficial algorithm in it for research
03:04:41 <zzo38> Node_492: Interesting idea. I wonder how possible it is.
03:05:13 <newsham> mining = searching for coq proofs?
03:06:10 <Node_492> that's basically what I'm talking about
03:06:17 <Node_492> but it's not implemented into the program itself
03:07:01 <newsham> someone shoudl implement a system where people who are interested in making the world better can do it without worrying about food and shelter
03:07:25 <Node_492> I mean essentially I think seti at home is pretty much it
03:07:32 <Node_492> I just thought if more people did it
03:08:12 <Bike> imo rational drug discovery
03:09:11 <int-e> newsham: so how do inconsistencies affect that market? is there a rollback when one is found?
03:09:31 <zzo38> You can see a problem with the proofmarket system: https://proofmarket.org/problem/viewa/20 It allows you to prove false things.
03:10:09 <Bike> proof of work: donate $1000 in real money to the UNHCR
03:10:28 <Node_492> what about a seti at home type thing but you get paid
03:10:58 <Node_492> I mean theoretically if all those asic mining rigs were helping solve cancer cell algorithms, we would be far better off than hashing useless code
03:11:05 <Node_492> and killing our computers in the process
03:12:04 <int-e> well all the asic miners *can* do is hashing. they wouldn't help with more complex computations.
03:12:38 <zzo38> Redefining False is like cheating though
03:13:06 <int-e> (in fact I'd argue that they are a good thing because they make mining on general purpose computers unattractive.)
03:13:25 <Bike> i assume the idea is that atleastyou'redoingsomethingcoin would result in asics that can test rotamers or w/e instead of hashing.
03:14:12 <oerjan> Node_492: bah clearly you should be rooting for tromp's new coin scheme
03:14:21 <Node_492> but I mean I'm sure they could easily make better asic chips specifically for something more beneficial like setiathome algorithms no problem
03:14:39 <Node_492> I mean prime is doing a similar concept
03:14:43 <Node_492> I'm not rooting for either really
03:15:07 <Node_492> I just think that collectively mining on a beneficial cause could be very important for the future of technology/civilization
03:15:13 <Bike> how is seti@home data certified?
03:15:27 <newsham> No False proofs in [ ] days!
03:15:41 <Node_492> i think some organization or university does it, the program was huge and backed/sponsored by many organizations
03:15:45 <int-e> Bike: I suppose jobs are sent out several times, and there is no money involved, lowering the incentive for cheating.
03:15:46 <oerjan> <zzo38> Redefining False is like cheating though <-- wanted to `addquote you but HackEgo isn't here
03:16:04 <Bike> int-e: so that probably wouldn't work for pseudobitcoins.
03:16:08 <Node_492> it's like making sure your script has no bugs
03:16:48 <newsham> node; like most things dealing with money, its not very beneficial for society ;-)
03:17:03 <Node_492> right but is asic mining really beneficial for society?
03:17:06 <newsham> best way to be beneficial to society is to ignore money temporarily and work on benefiting society
03:17:41 <Bike> does asic mining exist enough to have any effect on society at all
03:18:01 <Node_492> it's literally driven radeon GPU supply through the roof
03:18:08 <Node_492> it hasn't been like this since 2006
03:18:13 <zzo38> newsham: Yes you are correct
03:18:19 <Node_492> even before geforce came out with the 670s
03:18:23 <Bike> i don't think increasing GPU sales is much of an effect.
03:18:30 <Node_492> newsham you're absolutely right
03:18:37 <Node_492> but government jobs wouldn't get paid
03:18:48 <Node_492> and those oh so meaningless jobs will finally be truly
03:18:54 <oerjan> i thought the point was asics were replacing gpus because gpus couldn't keep up either
03:19:05 <newsham> inte: sounds like that "false" guy just asked the wrong question
03:19:10 <Node_492> yeah but you can't use ASIC for gaming
03:19:11 <newsham> and someone found a "bug" in the question
03:19:17 <Node_492> and more people game than mine
03:19:29 <shachaf> someone mentioned the other day that the bitcoin network as a whole does 2^64 hashes every ~10 minutes
03:19:34 <shachaf> that's a lot of hashing imo
03:19:36 <int-e> newsham: my remark was prompted by the news item on the homepage: "Now using coq8.4pl3, which is not known to be inconsistent."
03:20:08 <oerjan> or are you saying radeon GPU supply is through the roof because no one buys them any more
03:20:08 <newsham> yah that will be an interesting question if it is encountered.
03:20:25 <newsham> maybe copumpkin will steal all of the agda bounties with his next proof of false
03:20:48 <Bike> as someone indirectly paid by a government i suppose i should be offended
03:20:55 <Bike> but i can think to myself: at least i haven't invested in bitcoin
03:21:14 <Node_492> no they bought all the radeon GPUs out
03:21:39 <newsham> i dont find govt jobs useless.
03:21:58 <Node_492> you've clearly never met someone that's in social services for the state
03:22:02 <newsham> i personally like roads and police stations and fire stations and public schools and medicare and ...
03:22:25 <Bike> you, apparently
03:22:26 <newsham> i like agencies that make sure food is not poisonous
03:22:45 <newsham> and i am all for regulating financial crime
03:23:04 <Bike> anyway who wants to read a paper on modifying game physics engines to research tertiary DNA structure
03:23:17 <Node_492> I like living in a country where getting into an ambulance can cost you $10,000 dollars and was built by the bloods of the native americans
03:23:18 <Bike> i bet it's you, reading this message right now, personally
03:23:24 <Node_492> whome were raped and given diseases
03:23:43 <newsham> node: see, i dont think it woudl cost $10k if ambulences were run by the state
03:23:52 <newsham> the only thing more efficient than socialized medicine is what we have now
03:24:03 <Node_492> I've had my co-worker faint and go to the ER room with an ambulance
03:24:13 <Node_492> she literally had to sell her house to pay the bill
03:24:19 <Node_492> and move her family to another county
03:24:19 <Bike> not true. i could charge you money for haruspicy to determine how you'll get sick.
03:24:32 <Node_492> fuck you bike your FNORDS are showing
03:24:45 <zzo38> Why are some of the Bitcoin script commands disabled?
03:24:50 <newsham> node: i dont see how you're connecting that to govt jobs
03:25:00 <oerjan> fungot: what do you think about showing fnords?
03:25:00 <fungot> oerjan: let's do a crossover. aids is god's punishment for sinning"
03:25:14 <oerjan> fungot: i think you are not helping here.
03:25:15 <fungot> oerjan: usually you write all occurances of " scheme48". is he blippo? srfi-news?)
03:25:19 <Node_492> they're employed by the very government that enslaved african americans, kept them as sex slaves,
03:25:26 <newsham> when you coworker fainted and went to the er room in the ambulence how much did you coworker pay to the govt?
03:25:32 <int-e> oerjan: it did fit perfectly into the discussion.
03:25:39 <int-e> oerjan: unfortunately
03:25:41 <Node_492> that's how we built the government that gives these people their jobs
03:25:50 <int-e> fungot: talk about math
03:25:50 <fungot> int-e: i just got that quote as a fortune. it's
03:26:04 <int-e> fungot: say it, say it, what is it?
03:26:04 <fungot> int-e: a fnord fnord one sector will be frustrating, too, except when i am
03:26:30 <fungot> int-e: eval ( remove ' a mylist)... remove is not defined in the same way as fnord ( fnord
03:26:37 <Bike> Seeing a tragic lack of interest in rotating amino acid bonds, here.
03:26:59 <int-e> fungot: your context has been poisoned. can you show us some brainfuck?
03:26:59 <fungot> int-e: your code was going to submit in the paper can be used
03:29:06 <int-e> Bike: I am curious what the point is, is this an easier road towards exploiting GPU power than starting from scratch? I'm assuming that the actual physics are quite different.
03:29:18 <Bike> If you're not interested in physics engine modification I could link a few papers on artificial "bis-"amino acid polymers. I know a guy writing his own compiler for that shit
03:31:13 <Bike> int-e: i think they need things that aren't in a lot of chemical situations, like steric hindrance (roughly, collision detection)
03:31:18 <Bike> chemical simulations
03:31:41 <Bike> int-e: the physics are pretty much the same with what they're doing, just rigid body dynamics. i don't think they're worrying about breaking bonds
03:31:51 <Bike> http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pcbi.1003456 well anyway there you go
03:36:07 <zzo38> O, now I can see why some opcodes are disabled; how would they fix that then?
03:36:52 <newsham> whats that game where you connect together pipes and in doing so you're searching for mathematical proofs (without knowing it)?
03:41:43 <newsham> http://www.cs.washington.edu/verigames/ <- there
03:42:20 <newsham> http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~mernst/pubs/verigames-ftfjp2012.pdf
03:42:32 <Node_492> don't some of you guys wish the internet went off tomorrow and didn't come back on for 3 months?
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03:53:59 <Node_492> that shit is like IRC for yahoo answers
03:54:02 <Bike> more like worstevernet, imo
04:02:43 <zzo38> I have done other way around, which is to make a sequent calculus that implements a computer game (such as sokoban).
04:05:25 <Node_492> I'll be gone tomorrow walking in the morning breeze between the trees
04:05:32 <Node_492> but you'll all need your coffee
04:05:36 <Bike> i have a book of interviews with famous programmers. one of them's a composer now. nother one works at a phone company selling dialup.
04:05:42 <oerjan> Node_492: i think you mean "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity."
04:06:14 <Node_492> just the perception of the computer screen being the only thing you focus on in your room becomes daunting
04:06:33 <oerjan> that's our wiki motto, borrowed from someone else who came to this channel looking for esoterica.
04:07:09 <Node_492> and completely meaningless in another sense
04:07:42 <Node_492> I mean don't you guys think it's fucking crazy?
04:07:54 <Node_492> to just sit in a room for hours and just stare at a screen
04:08:03 <Node_492> I mean don't get me wrong I do it too
04:08:13 <Node_492> but at some point I think to myself 'holy shit, this is fucking insane'
04:08:24 <Node_492> and then go outside or travel to another city for a week or two
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04:08:58 <Node_492> and I don't have a smartphone so I'm not in the meta-matrix of solidity
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08:18:38 <zzo38> I know this program contains several bad stuff that could be improved, but other than the obvious stuff, is there a more efficient algorithm if costtab is known? http://sprunge.us/EOKM
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08:31:21 <oerjan> quoting Greg Kuperberg from Aaronson's blog: "News flash: While D-Wave threads debate whether snow shoes count as ice skates, the Martinis group at Santa Barbara lands a quadruple axel. http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.4848"
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09:00:46 <oklopol> i mean usually trolls don't first feign interest for hours and only then start talking about matrices of solidity (or maybe days, i ran out of backlog)
09:03:16 <oerjan> oklopol: sorry but i brought up the matrices
09:03:43 <oklopol> he just didn't know the technical term
09:04:00 <oerjan> also he made it quite clear when he arrived that he was looking for the other kind of esoterica.
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09:05:29 <myname> 3 months without internet... would give me plenty of time to read all the mangas on my phone
09:05:29 <oklopol> i actually still have no idea what the other kind of esoterica actually is
09:05:59 <oerjan> myname: hey no fair saying that when `addquote isn't working
09:06:20 <zzo38> myname: What mangas do you have on your phone (and how many)?
09:06:28 <oerjan> oklopol: well astrology probably counts
09:06:45 <myname> zzo38: about 100, i don't know most of them yet :D
09:07:03 <zzo38> I like the Akagi manga
09:07:20 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, perhaps, maybe other divinations too?
09:07:23 <oerjan> as does jung, which was also mentioned
09:07:59 <zzo38> Akagi manga is difficult if you don't know Japanese mahjong though.
09:08:00 <oerjan> and alastair [sp?] crowley probably
09:08:14 <oklopol> i actually don't think a lack of internet would matter that much to me
09:08:25 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, now I can understand what you mean.
09:09:13 <myname> obligatory stuff (imho) contains liar game, tower of god, the gamer, oyasumi punpun
09:09:36 <oklopol> pretty much all of my activities except this place can be done internet-less
09:09:58 <myname> zzo38: there is that crazy manga where people play mahjong against putin, hitler and the like
09:10:14 <zzo38> myname: Yes, I have heard of it, but never read it.
09:10:19 <oklopol> without a computer, i would be pretty much crippled
09:10:29 <myname> it's pretty famous for the super aryan
09:10:44 <oklopol> i don't even do math on paper
09:10:56 <zzo38> I have a lot of books, pencil, paper, so I can work even without a computer, but far more slowly, and doing less things
09:11:42 <myname> http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Super+Aryan_5b4c58_4527514.jpg
09:11:45 * oerjan keeps a notebook in his jacket, but doesn't use it that often lately
09:11:50 <zzo38> I do math on paper, and various other things on paper
09:12:22 <zzo38> I often write unrelated stuff on the back of a paper which I have previously printed out from the computer
09:12:39 <zzo38> Sometimes even on the front
09:12:53 <myname> also, wth @ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pItHDgP3A8g/T4kMyxhP3EI/AAAAAAAAAAs/rp62Rnb2O50/s1600/swastika%2Bhair.jpg
09:12:55 <zzo38> I like to reuse paper rather than waste it
09:13:01 <oklopol> zzo38: i usually do all research in my head, and then write the article directly to .tex
09:13:21 <oklopol> well a lot happens on a whiteboard actually
09:13:27 <myname> zzo38: i am really disappointed about the current price of the sony slate
09:13:44 <myname> i'd love to have one, but 98000 yen is ridiculous
09:14:23 <zzo38> Sometimes I do write things directly onto a TeX file but sometimes the things I write on the paper are never used elsewise.
09:14:35 <zzo38> And sometimes I am not accessing the computer, because I am elsewhere.
09:14:40 <myname> math is one of the main reasons i use paper
09:14:50 <oerjan> i used to write a lot more on paper before. i remember when i was little, my dad brought used computer printouts so i could write on the other side
09:15:47 <oerjan> (these were long reams of paper with holes on the side)
09:17:41 <oklopol> if i have to do a lot of calculations with numbers, i do use paper, like if i have to give homework sessions (i still don't know what the term for this is) for a linear algebra class
09:18:26 <oklopol> but for topology, measure theory, combinatorics of words, cellular automata, logic, automata theory, etc. you don't really need any external memory
09:20:17 <oklopol> (but maybe i just do very simple things)
09:22:26 <zzo38> Well, I do use it for math, but for other purposes too.
09:23:15 <myname> so... what the hell is a verigame and why didn't i know of that earlier?
09:24:07 <zzo38> For calculations with many numbers I will often use a TI-92 calculator, although sometimes also writing things on paper
09:24:13 <oklopol> btw Node's idea of doing cancercoin was actually pretty genius; also sort of obvious but i hadn't thought of it
09:24:17 <Taneb> oerjan, I remember those paper
09:24:22 <Taneb> Probably not the same paper
09:24:27 <Taneb> But the computer reams :)
09:25:14 <oerjan> Taneb: SORRY YOU ARE TOO YOUNG IT'S NOT POSSIBLE
09:25:46 <Taneb> It scares me that my parents met after half of my friends at uni were born
09:26:34 <oklopol> i used to make friends mostly with the >30 students
09:27:10 <Taneb> I probably made friends with over 30 students
09:27:30 <oklopol> i meant people who are over 30 years old
09:27:56 <Taneb> I don't know if I know any
09:28:02 <Taneb> (yeah, I got that)
09:28:08 <oklopol> "<Taneb> It scares me that my parents met after half of my friends at uni were born"
09:28:31 <Taneb> My parents met in '92
09:28:33 <oklopol> doesn't that mean your friends are much older than you
09:28:39 <oerjan> i do not have proof that my parents didn't meet for the first time 9 months before i was born, but i recall no evidence against either.
09:29:05 <Taneb> oklopol, only by two or so years
09:30:23 <oerjan> hm i may be tired i may be slipping into tmi mode
09:30:25 <oklopol> the oldies are usually alone, so we end up talking
09:30:54 <oklopol> also they usually have a life story, whereas people my age are like um i didn't know what to do so i ended up in math because i figured it's easy
09:31:18 <Taneb> I mostly made friends in the computer science society
09:31:44 <myname> oerjan: they do not have to meet 9 months before you were born
09:31:52 <myname> maybe your father sold semen
09:32:27 <oerjan> myname: i think the evidence is quite clearly against that version
09:32:58 <oerjan> like the fact they married.
09:33:11 <myname> Taneb: there are people outside the computer science society?
09:33:26 <Taneb> myname, yes, for instance the sci fi and fantasy society
09:33:34 <Taneb> Also the CS society here is tiny
09:33:39 <oklopol> i never went to any social thingies
09:33:43 <Taneb> Like, I wound up treasurer
09:35:24 <Taneb> Also I probably ought to join the maths society
09:35:34 <Taneb> Or the sci fi and fantasy society, thinking about it
09:35:35 <myname> besides finishing assignments, talking to people is one of my main activity while studying
09:36:05 <Taneb> It's weird that I suddenly seem to have a social life
09:38:14 <Taneb> myname, are you a student?
09:38:51 <myname> computer science, what else? :p
09:39:18 <Taneb> I said where, not what
09:40:03 <Taneb> Doing Maths and Computer Science
09:40:20 <myname> i have a pretty hard time finding a minor subject
09:40:50 <myname> in fact, it's practically the only thing (besides the bachelor thesis) that is left
09:40:54 <Taneb> shachaf, already it's not the applied stuff, and I seem to be heading to only half of that
09:41:07 <Taneb> myname, I'm on a joint course, it's 50/50 Maths/CS
09:41:38 <myname> Taneb: math has way to much stuff i really don't want to learn
09:41:57 <oklopol> how many courses per year do you take
09:42:03 <Taneb> oklopol, 1 for your entire time at uni
09:42:21 <oklopol> because the word has two rather different meanings
09:42:47 <Taneb> myname, I promised myself when I was eight years old that I'd do maths at uni, and so far I'm not regretting it
09:42:59 <oklopol> i promised myself i'd become a programmer when i was 5
09:43:14 <myname> oklopol: you didn't know better
09:43:43 <oklopol> my father used to tell me i'd realize at some point that i want to do math or physics or something
09:43:44 <Taneb> When I was 5 I don't think I had much interest in programming
09:44:05 <oklopol> because his experience with programming was that it's mostly copying data from one spreadsheet to another
09:44:09 <oerjan> when i was 5 i don't think i had any idea what programming was
09:44:12 <myname> i started programming at 12 and sucked at that
09:44:26 <shachaf> when i was 5 i'm not sure i even existed
09:44:41 <Taneb> shachaf, did you want to be a philosopher
09:44:43 <oklopol> started making my own projects only at 9 or so though
09:45:06 <Taneb> I started programming when I was 12, sucked then, and I haven't actually got much better since
09:45:44 <myname> at least i don't do basic anymore
09:45:52 <Taneb> I think I'm probably gonna be a better computer scientist than programmer
09:46:31 <myname> that is what you want to do anyways
09:47:01 <myname> but i don't know how hard it is to actually work as a computer scientist without being a coding monkey first
09:48:22 <oklopol> if you want to be a computer scientist, just don't leave academia
09:48:47 <myname> i'd love to, but i am not sure if i'd be able to do that
09:49:38 <myname> they only have like a dozen or so people that may make a phd while working here
09:49:48 <oklopol> that may be, but i don't see why being a coding monkey for a while would help
09:52:01 <oklopol> i mean your time at the university is when you wow the professors and such and get funding for a phd, then rewow them with your thesis and publications
09:52:36 <oklopol> then you can become a coding monkey if you like, but i think you'll be judged by your phd time after that anyway, unless they already forgot about you in which case your situation is even worse
09:53:19 <oklopol> though i don't actually know whether it goes like that
09:54:09 <Bike> just slum out a phd in relativistic quantum chemistry and then you can do whatever you want. fact
09:54:10 <myname> future will show, but i think other people are more likely to get hired than i am
09:55:12 <zzo38> Do you know how to improve the algorithm I had? Other than the obvious stuff, I just wondered if, having the constant "costtab" table, can allow any improvements.
09:57:18 <Taneb> zzo38, what algorithm?
09:57:43 <zzo38> Taneb: http://sprunge.us/EOKM
09:58:03 <zzo38> I know there are some things that are just written badly and can be fixed, but those aren't what I mean.
09:59:11 <myname> "is that C" made me curious
09:59:55 <myname> what the hell is that supposed to do
10:00:31 <oerjan> oh is it that printing optimization for the famicom or whatever it was?
10:00:36 <zzo38> To calculate the best encoding of a text string, where the decoder can be in one of three states
10:00:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Not for the Famicom, for the Z-machine.
10:03:18 <zzo38> In each of the three possible states, there is a different cost for a character depending on what character it is as well as what state will be next.
10:03:45 <zzo38> That is why there ix a 3x3x3 table; it is for the from state, to state, and character's state.
10:04:22 <shachaf> so famicom means the same thing as NES?
10:04:31 <zzo38> shachaf: It is a similar hardware.
10:04:44 <zzo38> Similar enough that most software will work through an adapter.
10:06:33 <zzo38> (Although sometimes the music won't play, due to an incompatibility in the cartridge header)
10:08:20 <zzo38> Do you understand what I am trying to make this algorithm do, now?
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10:12:13 <oerjan> i remember our previous discussion
10:12:26 <oerjan> enough to remember the general algorithm, at least
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10:15:35 <oerjan> C microoptimization isn't precisely a skill i trust myself on. would it be more efficient to expand the table with dummy 4th rows so you can use bit twiddling instead of multiplication?
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10:15:50 <zzo38> That is a good idea, yes.
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10:16:27 <zzo38> But my question was if, due to the costtab table being the way it is, there is a way to make the algorithm more efficient due to how its constant data is laid out.
10:17:11 <oerjan> in other words, whether there's some structure in costtab you can exploit?
10:22:55 <oerjan> ok so the cost is 1 when all of *b, s1 and s2 are equal.
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10:27:56 <zzo38> I am wondering if any of these things can be used to make the algorithm more efficient in any ways.
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10:31:16 <oerjan> ok the tricky thing is that there's sometimes a cheaper way to print a character than changing to its preferred state, printing it, then changing to the desired end state
10:31:32 <oerjan> which i'm sure you explained the last time
10:32:07 <zzo38> I have already taken that into account in the table, actually.
10:32:38 <oerjan> yes, i thought so, but i only remembered it when i was thinking about why the table cannot be split up that way again
10:32:53 <zzo38> The case is if you are in state 2 and want to stay in state 2, but the character's preferred state isn't state 2, you can use the ASCII escape instead of switching out and back in.
10:42:57 <zzo38> The "Move everything to left" can probably be avoided by combining it with the next step, probably making it faster.
10:43:23 <zzo38> But your idea to avoid multiplication is a good one too, and I will do that.
10:44:13 <oerjan> i doubt the form of costtab has anything to exploit though
10:45:41 <zzo38> However I also meant even if the costtab is still there, but maybe there still isn't anything to exploit.
10:58:01 <zzo38> Do you like SQLite?
11:02:45 <oerjan> hm i don't like your copying of the best[i] elements back and forth, each of them contains an array the length of the string doesn't it
11:03:45 <zzo38> Yes like I said it could be greatly improved
11:03:47 <oerjan> i vaguely think i discussed last time how to avoid that
11:04:11 <zzo38> There are several bad things about this program, which can be improved
11:04:18 <zzo38> That is one of them
11:06:03 <zzo38> Some things though, just cannot see right from this part of the code, since you cannot see that some variables are declared unsigned.
11:07:15 <oerjan> well i assumed next[] is unsigned, since that's the only way assigning -1 to it and expecting it to be larger than what you compare with, will work
11:07:46 <zzo38> Yes, those are valid assumptions.
11:08:43 <zzo38> The program does in fact work. But I am completely rewriting it in much better way, so for one thing, all of the in_row are precalculated (which is possible here)
11:09:02 <oerjan> this is a little tricky btw, the idea i have for avoid copying those arrays clashes with how you use *b values >= 3 for special fast characters
11:10:11 <zzo38> Yes, maybe there is a better way to deal with the fast characters
11:10:59 <zzo38> Although I am not sure what it is
11:13:28 <oerjan> without those fast characters, you could change only bests[i].data[n] and not the whole of bests[i] at each step.
11:13:51 <oerjan> because the data[n] tells you which i was used in the previous step
11:15:02 <oerjan> in other words, let bests[i].data[n] store the s1 that is best at step n-1 for getting to s2==i at step n.
11:20:31 <zzo38> Possibly the fast characters could be completely disjoined from the rest of the algorithm, and added back in later (during actual encoding; it doesn't need to know anything about the rest of the algorithm). (The exception is the (ir[0] && ir[1] && ir[2]) part, but such thing isn't really ever going to happen, so it can be removed.)
11:21:27 <oerjan> oh wait hm i realized, you don't need to change that part anyway
11:22:05 <oerjan> you can keep the fast characters as they are, they're just a special code for s1 == s2
11:22:35 <zzo38> Yes, they do imply that
11:23:02 <oerjan> so they still contain enough information to tell what the previous state in the chain is, which is all you need.
11:23:52 <zzo38> And for the cost calculating algorithm, the fast characters are irrelevant and the algorithm can act as if they weren't there.
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11:30:42 <zzo38> And you are right that it ought not to copy entire arrays during every step; it only need to copy up to how much is already written, anyways. Especially since I will fix it not to use a fixed buffer length.
11:32:14 <oerjan> well my suggestion is not to copy anything other than the step currently being calculated.
11:32:56 <oerjan> this will require a final unwinding step to calculate the array to return, though.
11:33:27 <oerjan> but it should be much more efficient than copying much of the array every time
11:34:04 <zzo38> Yes, clearly it will be
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11:38:05 <zzo38> However it is copying possibly a different array, due to which cost is best being changed
11:38:14 <zzo38> Or maybe I just got confused
11:39:43 <oerjan> well i don't know what different array you mean
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11:41:10 <zzo38> One of the other bests[i].data arrays, for a different "i"
11:41:40 <oerjan> well i think you shouldn't copy those arrays as a whole anywhere
11:41:55 <oerjan> except possibly for returning the final result
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11:42:53 <zzo38> O, that is what you mean by, a final unwinding step.
11:43:08 <zzo38> Now I can understand somewhat better what you mean, than I previously did.
11:44:40 <zzo38> Right now I am a bit tired though
11:44:47 <zzo38> But maybe tomorrow I understand better.
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11:46:21 <int-e> The Node_492 experiment is gone, will it be back?
11:46:54 <zzo38> int-e: I think that only remains to be seen, whether or not it is.
11:47:06 <oerjan> i'm also tired, i'm staying awake extra long to adjust my sleeping cycle to a more convenient phase
11:47:41 <int-e> (I'd call it a troll except that I think for the most part it failed quite miserably. People didn't get riled up the way one might expect.)
11:48:03 <oerjan> int-e: we had to do some fungot therapy though
11:48:03 <fungot> oerjan: it was konqueror and ie that were broken from the beginning of each function in that same language.
11:49:10 <int-e> Yes. Thanks, fungot, beacon of sanity.
11:49:10 <fungot> int-e: your model doesn't save the internal state. this is among the most plugged in initially
11:57:05 * ski started at ~ 6.5
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12:05:25 <oerjan> "The TL;DR: Holy $#!t !! I finally can say with a straight face that universal quantum computers might be built in the next 2 decades (given adequate commitment of resources of course… but not more than the low tens of billions dollars, I dare say, which really isn’t more than 2 or 3 generations of new microprocessors these days). :)"
12:05:52 <oerjan> aaronson blog comment by bill kaminsky
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14:41:38 <yorick> dammit Slereah you did it wrong
14:41:52 <Slereah> I don't know William Shatner that well
14:42:25 <Slereah> There's a dude named Marty on freenode
14:42:37 <Slereah> I never miss my Back to the Future quotes
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16:08:20 <int-e> elliott: what's this, viral marketing for ethics?
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16:12:29 <int-e> is that so, looks plausible from here.
16:13:28 <int-e> (IP address is 66.111.3.186. Is it the same for you?)
16:15:38 <int-e> nah, you probably have 93.174.95.82.
16:17:48 <elliott> ah, DNS not propagated for you?
16:23:27 <int-e> Actually I don't seem to get anything suspicious from either IP, but perhaps I'm doing it wrong.
16:28:21 <int-e> I was doing it wrong.
16:31:07 <int-e> (I've now resorted to curl -H 'Host: www.eccouncil.org' 93.174.95.82)
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17:08:57 <Vorpal> int-e, looked hacked to me
17:15:17 <int-e> Vorpal: DNS has propagated to here now (the zone lifetime was just an hour)
17:16:12 <Vorpal> int-e, ah, so they defaced it by redirecting DNS rather than defacing the HTTP server?
17:17:15 <Vorpal> what is that about passports on the page btw?
17:19:16 <int-e> maybe they got access to the info@ mailbox (mail is handled by google)
17:20:12 <int-e> at least that's what the screenshot suggests: the shown e-mail has a passport scan as an attachment.
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17:33:43 <Sgeo> I think QUassel just gives up on reconnecting eventually :(
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18:34:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I guess you need a better connection instead?
18:34:52 <Vorpal> I should log into the ADSL modem to check uptime
18:34:58 <Sgeo> Vorpal: I blame Freenode, none of the other networks have been giving me problems
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18:35:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, iirc they got DDoSed yesterday
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19:14:17 <zzo38> When I try to use the IRC PING command targeting pratchett.freenode.net, I get "services." in place of the name of the server.
19:15:56 <zzo38> The MOTD also says it is a services daemon
19:16:36 <zzo38> Calling the server "services." does work too.
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19:22:58 <Vorpal> zzo38, presumably because it is the services?
19:24:58 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it is sensible, but I would expect something else.
19:25:21 <zzo38> The other algorithm I wanted to know, for my program, is if there is an efficient way to compile a dictionary of search strings so that you can find them a large collection of other texts?
19:26:49 <Vorpal> I believe so, but I do not remember what the algorithm is called
19:27:41 <Vorpal> zzo38, Googling "text search algorithm" (without quotes) found this as the first result: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyer%E2%80%93Moore_string_search_algorithm
19:27:50 <Vorpal> Might be worth reading about
19:28:41 <Vorpal> Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_text_search
19:30:44 <zzo38> Wikipedia is broke
19:31:01 <zzo38> Anyways, it isn't really a full text search that I want
19:31:02 <Vorpal> Guess only certain mirrors are broken
19:31:11 <Vorpal> Oh, then I misunderstood you
19:31:33 <zzo38> And since my program imports SQLite, if I do want full-text-search, I already have it.
19:32:00 <zzo38> But really I mean even substrings like "llo wor" in "Hello world", and so on, being case-sensitive and everything like that.
19:32:17 <Vorpal> Then the first link would fit better
19:33:02 <zzo38> It would be, if it worked.
19:33:10 <zzo38> But I get a 503 error.
19:33:32 <Vorpal> Try refreshing? It works for me
19:33:49 <zzo38> It doesn't work for me.
19:34:02 <Vorpal> Not much I can do about that, try later maybe?
19:34:14 <zzo38> Yes, I can try later, like it says
19:34:55 <Vorpal> It is basically an algorithm for speeding up linear text searching by skipping forward in the string when it knows there can't be a match
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19:38:16 <zzo38> I do think I read something about similar things in some book once
19:39:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, here, this might help: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gUZbBziwUoEJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyer%25E2%2580%2593Moore_string_search_algorithm+&cd=1&hl=sv&ct=clnk
19:45:28 <Vorpal> zzo38, there is a lot of links at the end of that article to other algorithms, might be worth checking those as well
19:46:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, by the way, what is your goal here?
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19:49:14 <zzo38> In order to find the instance of search strings so that they can be replaced by a code that references them, in order to achieve compression.
19:49:32 <zzo38> (I do not have control over the decoding method)
19:49:51 <Vorpal> Implementing a specific compression format?
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19:50:26 <zzo38> Yes. I could make it to figure out which strings it should compress, too, but I don't know how to do that either, and that data could be entered manually too.
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19:51:20 <Vorpal> I'm no expert on compression algorithms, but I believe they generally keep a dynamic dictionary that can change as it goes along
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19:51:49 <Vorpal> And it generally is done in one pass over the input
19:52:16 <zzo38> Well, I have to use a static dictionary
19:52:30 <Vorpal> That is a pretty strange algorithm
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19:52:49 <zzo38> Although the static dictionary doesn't have to be any specific way; I could make it to figure out the best static dictionary to use, if that could be done.
19:53:10 <Vorpal> Which compression algorithm is this?
19:54:11 <zzo38> It is the one used in Z-machine. This static dictionary is called the FWORDS table, and is limited to 96 entries.
19:54:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary_coder (you can easily google the url to find the cache link if you want that)
19:55:35 <zzo38> I have seen that article before
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19:55:49 <zzo38> But it mentions about dynamic dictionary coders
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19:59:34 <Vorpal> zzo38, this also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffix_tree
19:59:56 <Vorpal> Not sure how you would best determine a static dictionary though
20:00:04 <Vorpal> Should be doable though
20:07:16 <zzo38> Wikipedia works now.
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20:40:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, only in certain places it seems, it worked fine for me the entire time
20:43:31 <Sgeo> shachaf: you're not schaf, are you?
20:47:37 <Vorpal> * [shachaf] is logged in as shachaf
20:47:37 <Vorpal> * [schaf] is logged in as schaf
20:47:46 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I would say the answer is no
20:48:07 <myname> schaf is actually sheep in german
20:48:37 <shachaf> myname is actually my name in english
20:49:17 <myname> that's the reason why i have it
20:49:32 <myname> i was like 12 and my uncle said i have to enter a nickname
20:49:39 <myname> couldn't think of anything
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21:08:42 <boily> good hangover morning.
21:11:21 <myname> fnord is the color that only the blind can see
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21:23:25 <Bike> <img alt="A beautiful woman to suck my cock" src="sigil-1.gif">
21:26:43 <bitcoin933> we know you're a part of the nick flood
21:35:58 <bitcoin933> bike has been internally sabotaging the group
21:37:03 <Bike> I regret nothing.
21:37:54 <elliott> bitcoin933: who are you and what are you talking about?
21:38:10 <elliott> and why do I recognise the name aeshtaer
21:38:12 <Slereah> I'm trying to play the first Might and Magic
21:38:21 <Slereah> Since it's on Apple II, it's quite a hassle
21:38:35 <boily> Slereah: do you have an Apple II?
21:38:57 <boily> bitcoin933: who are you, and were you `relcomed?
21:38:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:39:10 <elliott> bitcoin933: less noise and complaining at regulars and more answers please
21:39:35 <bitcoin933> before many of your were born on usenet
21:39:48 <bitcoin933> we've been using #esoteric as a congregation place for years
21:40:01 <bitcoin933> but finally decided that it was too risky and flooded the channels with programmers
21:40:33 <bitcoin933> so that our records are lost in a sea of programming jabber
21:41:04 <bitcoin933> many of us still communicate through this channel but not by text
21:41:31 <bitcoin933> we correspond reply times to concepts and communicate that way
21:41:32 <elliott> oh, aeshtaer is just Bike's ident
21:41:43 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:41:50 <bitcoin933> we've been following him for about two months
21:41:51 <elliott> anyway cut it out or something idk
21:41:59 <bitcoin933> and we've seen him sabotage his own friends
21:42:51 <bitcoin933> none of this matters as what we started nearly 25 years ago will soon pay off this week
21:43:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:43:04 -!- elliott has kicked bitcoin933 you're really boring??.
21:43:17 <Vorpal> elliott, since when do you have op in here?
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21:44:08 <elliott> I couldn't find any log evidence they'd been here before, oddly
21:44:24 <elliott> though they didn't exactly strike me as being here for the first time
21:44:42 <Vorpal> Probably just some regular having a bit of fun by trolling?
21:44:45 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:44:58 <elliott> then why have the first two parts of their IP never occurred before in my logs?
21:45:12 <Vorpal> well okay, that is a good question
21:45:22 <Vorpal> maybe they have a cloak normally?
21:47:29 <Vorpal> Hm ~/Downloads has an interesting system. When there is to much crap in it, I do mkdir old && mv * old, so there is a nested structure of ~/Downloads/old/old/old/old by this point
21:47:35 <Vorpal> I need to clean that up
21:48:14 <boily> find ~/Downloads -type f -exec shred -vuz {} \; && rm -rf ~/Downloads
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21:49:43 <elliott> is the nick change meant to endear?
21:49:56 <birch> no I just thought the numbers were weird at the end
21:51:10 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia.
21:51:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I do that with home directories sometimes. Hence I have such directory name gems as ~/__UBUNTU__/_MUST_SORT_/momusspace-before-crash/mnt/_NSA_MOVE_/music_unsorted/random/old/unsorted/
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21:51:28 <boily> right. the gregorbots are dead, so no `relcoming.
21:51:34 <quintopia> boily: would you like to grade my essay on computational complexity
21:51:58 <fizzie> For some reason naming a directory "_MUST_SORT_" never makes it get sorted out any faster.
21:52:33 <boily> quintopia: I'd like to, but I can't focus on anything longer than five minutes. I am quite hungover from yesterday.
21:53:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: A reference to a Zyxel network-attached storage box with the model name "NSA-220".
21:53:31 <boily> quintopia: nah. been throwing up for the past 11 hours.
21:54:25 <birch> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fpub%2Fsean-mapoles%2F5%2Fa64%2F6a8&ei=AG4KU-3_MITLkAfK_ICICA&usg=AFQjCNGhaNoSWUXc1xKt0iY7xdhg6DpIkg&sig2=NQ9Rhp_ZMej4m9Wifs3UDA&bvm=bv.61725948,d.eW0
21:54:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, Well I guess we know where it reported to
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21:55:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure it's just "Network Storage Appliance" or something equally benign. Incidentally, want to buy it? I'm not using it any longer.
21:55:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh, is it any good?
21:56:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not really. They managed to not include a wake-on-lan feature on it (there's one on the NSA-220+ and the NSA-320, which are later models), for one thing.
21:57:11 <boily> can I get op for a few seconds please?
21:57:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah... not interested
21:57:21 <boily> (it'll help me feel better.)
21:59:12 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
21:59:14 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.228.43.90.
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22:00:51 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
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22:01:08 <fizzie> elliott: That was boily asking, incidentally.
22:02:16 <fizzie> boily: Now see what you did again with your easily confusable name. Have you no shame at all?
22:02:50 <boily> I'll feel shameful tomorrow. all my emotions are set aside while I vainly try to feel unnauseated.
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22:04:30 <elliott> we should -q birch to see what other dumb things they say
22:06:03 -!- birch has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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22:09:08 <metasepia> 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 --- Sum = 32
22:09:34 <boily> ion: ↑ please accept this humble coin-ersatz.
22:27:59 <metasepia> --- Throw dice, e.g.: dice 6 4 will throw four regular dice.
22:29:16 <metasepia> --- Throw dice, e.g.: dice 6 4 will throw four regular dice.
22:29:32 <boily> I feel multiple bugs.
22:30:00 * boily takes notes... “negative dice, fractional dice, complex dice, unicode dice...”
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22:30:19 <FireFly> What about surreal and infinitesimal dice?
22:30:32 <metasepia> ESSA 232220Z 21017KT 9999 BKN029 06/02 Q1011 R01L/12//95 R01R/19//95 R08/12//95 NOSIG
22:31:10 * boily amends surreality onto the list
22:31:20 <metasepia> CYUL 232200Z 23012G19KT 30SM FEW060 FEW240 01/M08 A2978 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP085
22:31:35 <Taneb> Today I wrote a program that converges on my phone number VIA THE POWER OF NATURAL SELECTION
22:33:58 <Taneb> I didn't implement crossover at all
22:35:51 <Taneb> Also it isn't very useful
22:38:00 <Taneb> Especially as what it finds is written twice in the source code
22:40:09 <boily> I wonder what would happen if I tried calling Taneb...
22:40:28 <FireFly> Taneb: reminds me of http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/17294/golfing-a-weasel-program
22:42:51 <Taneb> I do something similar, but restricted to 11 decimal digits, with a 10% chance of switching to an adjacent digit (with 0 between 9 and 1)
22:42:55 <Taneb> And it keeps more than 1
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23:29:19 <boily> @tell nooodl je nog hebt
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00:01:10 * boily sings “Aimai san senchi sorya puni tte koto kai? Cho! ♪”
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01:44:38 <oerjan> i see metasepia also agrees that boily should take drugs for his hangover
02:02:38 <ion> 2CELLOS – Thunderstruck http://youtu.be/uT3SBzmDxGk
02:10:11 <Sgeo> My YouTube favorites is broken
02:10:14 <Sgeo> I can't seem to add to it
02:10:26 <Sgeo> At least, it seems to let me try to add to it, but it never displays
02:10:36 <Sgeo> And sometimes it shows as 100 videos instead of around 1,700
02:42:30 <Sgeo> Would it be reasonable to stream games from an EC2 instance?
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03:39:06 <zzo38> Someone wrote to 2600 to apologize for stealing previous issues of the magazine.
03:49:15 <kmc> copumpkin, oerjan, Bike: thanks for birthday wishes <3
03:50:00 <shachaf> oh, you're back from guesthood
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04:05:19 <oerjan> the love of money is the root of all evil, kmc
04:06:14 <kmc> lol https://github.com/ruby-prof/ruby-prof/blob/master/ext/ruby_prof/rp_measure_cpu_time.c#L40-46
04:07:24 <zzo38> Yes, although some people say it wrong, by omitting "love of"
04:07:38 <zzo38> (and also ", kmc")
04:07:58 <oerjan> omitting ", kmc" is clearly abhorrent
04:08:06 <kmc> this is what happens when Kids These Days don't learn how operating systems work
04:09:27 <kmc> if you're on a microcontroller
04:10:00 <copumpkin> a microcontroller that runs x86 or ppc
04:10:22 <kmc> the intro EE class at my school uses an x86 microcontroller (sort of)
04:10:33 <kmc> and ppc is popular for embedded too. what's a microcontroller, etc
04:12:00 <zzo38> Are there computers connecting peripheral devices (other than the primary keyboard/video/audio) with ethernet and TCP/IP?
04:13:18 <zzo38> A good idea would be to have one dedicated port for the keyboard, and the mouse and joystick are chained with the keyboard.
04:13:31 <kmc> good old ADB
04:13:35 <kmc> but USB can also do that of course
04:14:21 <zzo38> Yes they can, but USB has its own problems. Especially with autoplay and all of those things; the primary input devices should be a dedicated port, it would be more sensible, and faster.
04:14:37 <Bike> what's bad about the code snippet
04:14:49 <zzo38> And make a smaller BIOS code to read them.
04:15:11 <kmc> Bike: the argument to nanosleep is only a lower bound; when your process actually gets scheduled again is up to the whims of the OS
04:15:14 <zzo38> Especially if it is a code only to use standard input device and standard display, and a built-in Forth interpreter, then other things can be added on afterward.
04:15:25 <kmc> it's also not even a lower bound, because it can be interrupted by a signal
04:15:51 <kmc> that's why there's a second argument from which you can determine how much of the time intervals remains
04:16:34 <kmc> struct timespec ts = {...}, rem; while ((nanosleep(&ts, &rem) == -1) && (errno == EINTR)) { memcpy(ts, rem, sizeof(struct timespec); } or some nonsense like that
04:19:39 <kmc> why not? oh can you use the same pointer for both?
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04:21:06 <shachaf> no, ts is a timespec, not a pointer
04:21:19 <shachaf> why not just ts = rem or something?
04:23:18 <shachaf> not that this is e. relevant to what you were saying or anything
04:26:36 <newsham> yah, use ts= rem so the compiler inserts the memcpy for you :)
04:27:53 <shachaf> well, you probably want &s if you're memcpying?
04:31:35 <kmc> yeah I forgot the ampersands
04:31:46 <kmc> and didn't remember if there's some catch to struct assignment in C
04:31:52 <kmc> but it's prolly ok
04:33:05 <zzo38> I think you can assign variables of struct types fine in C
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04:38:11 <kmc> Bike: also the time stamp counter read by get_cpu_time() isn't necessarily synchronized between CPUs, and its rate may or may not vary with CPU frequency scaling
04:38:18 <Sgeo> The game I want to stream from an EC2 instance is Worms: Armageddon
04:38:22 <kmc> and a system call like nanosleep() is a perfect time for the OS to move you between CPUs
04:38:24 <Sgeo> Doesn't exactly require fancy graphics
04:40:33 <shachaf> memcpy seems like a bit of a lie since the values will probably be in registers anyway
04:42:46 <shachaf> well, maybe not in this case
04:44:07 <kmc> not here, yeah, because you need to pass a pointer to the OS
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05:00:24 <zzo38> See if this game rules can be applied to a Go game; it would be really strange, compared to using with chess. http://www.chessvariants.org/multiplayer.dir/anynumber.html
05:06:16 <newsham> [18:42] < shachaf> memcpy seems like a bit of a lie since the values will probably be in registers anyway
05:06:21 <newsham> by the time you call memcpy it wont be!
05:10:14 <zzo38> Hofstadter's BlooP is equally powerful without IF, ABORT LOOP, and QUIT BLOCK. In fact, it works even if you also omit multiplication and comparison operators (although comparison operators wouldn't do anything without the IF statement anyways).
05:10:46 <zzo38> The same is not true of FlooP due to the MU-LOOP command.
05:12:01 <zzo38> Although maybe it is if you still allow ABORT LOOP only for use with MU-LOOPs; I haven't actually proven this, though. Do you know the proof of this?
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05:58:33 <oerjan> "_C’est la vie_, as Zeno of Citium might have said had French been invented before c. 262 BC."
05:59:29 <zzo38> Even if it had been invented, doesn't necessarily mean Zeno might have spoken French.
05:59:59 <oerjan> no, but it would surely have improved the chances
06:00:20 <zzo38> But I don't know how much
06:03:22 <zzo38> How slow is memcpy, usually?
06:47:46 <newsham> memcpy is usually pretty optimized.. but how to answer that question? it depends...
07:02:42 <zzo38> I mean compared to other things, and compared to the length of the data
07:04:05 <kmc> usually compilers have special knowledge of memcpy and can turn it into a fully unrolled sequence of movs, or rep movsq on amd64, etc.
07:05:10 <zzo38> But there is also non-x86 computers too, and even if it is x86 it may be 32-bit programs rather than 64-bits, and someone might want to compile for MMIX or JVM, etc
07:08:06 <Slereah> Most CPUs have movs though
07:09:06 <Slereah> Although it does have lw for memory moving, so nevermind
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07:22:26 <kmc> it's a load/store architecture like most RISC
07:26:02 <kmc> i don't know if any flavor of MIPS has a bulk memory copy
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07:28:16 <kmc> ARM allows to load/store any-ish subset of registers at once, with auto increment/decrement too http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.dui0204j/Cihcadda.html
07:42:29 <ais523> kmc: that sort of feature's often used to implement a fast memcpy, isn't it?
07:42:54 <ais523> or in particularly, a fast software blit (back in the days before GPUs were common)
07:43:52 <copumpkin> http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.faqs/ka13544.html
07:43:56 <kmc> also register save/restore for functions
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09:35:01 <fizzie> Possibly notably, the ARM bulk load/store instructions have been eliminated from the A64 instruction set.
09:35:28 <fizzie> Much like PUSHA/POPA from x86-64, come to think of it.
09:36:01 <fizzie> "The LDM, STM, PUSH and POP instructions do not exist in A64, however bulk transfers can be constructed using the LDP and STP instructions which load and store a pair of independent registers from consecutive memory locations, --"
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09:36:20 <fizzie> (That's from the "ARMv8 Instruction Set Overview".)
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18:27:07 <kmc> find -delete isn't POSIX? :(
18:27:14 <kmc> can't have nice things
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18:53:15 <kmc> just more moving parts
18:56:34 <newsham_> so you just need to put /bin/sh into /usr/bin/find !
18:56:44 <newsham_> you already have -delete, now just a few more commands
18:57:02 <newsham_> dont forget all of the other useful /bin/* tools
18:58:12 <ais523> isn't -delete needed to stop people screwing around with symlinks?
18:58:58 <newsham_> perhaps. does it keep a handle on the dir its traversing?
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20:03:51 <fizzie> I'd certainly hope "find -delete" runs on unlinkat(2).
20:06:54 <fizzie> Doesn't seem to be guaranteed in the (GNU findutils find) documentation, though.
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20:20:11 <olsner> I like -delete mostly because I still haven't figured out what the -exec syntax is
20:22:22 <kmc> it's wacky
20:24:07 <Bike> i have no idea how to use find, at all
20:25:22 <olsner> Bike: it's a bit like prolog
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20:28:19 * Bike nods, takes notes
20:28:55 <olsner> find even also has a cut operator (not sure if it's similar to prolog's cut though, since I never got the hang of what that really did)
20:31:48 <kmc> now I want to make a demonstration of logic programming using find
20:34:56 <myname> Bike: :D i always do "find . | grep filename"
20:35:39 <olsner> myname: omg, doesn't even handle newlines in file names!
20:36:10 <myname> olsner: i do not have files with newlines when i am looking for something
20:36:27 <myname> i won't use that in a public script, though
20:37:05 <newsham_> echo 'find . -type f |grep "$@"' >~/bin/ff
20:38:01 <newsham_> echo 'find . -type f -print0 |xargs -0 grep "$@"' >~/bin/fgr
20:39:38 <kmc> fgr for "fucking grep already" i presume
20:39:43 * kmc uses ack-grep or git grep
20:40:38 <olsner> git grep replaced most find/grep combinations I would've done otherwise
20:40:53 <newsham_> could be also "find-grep" or "file-grep"
20:41:13 <newsham_> i find/grep lots of src trees that dont belong to me which arent from git
20:42:29 <newsham_> also "git grep" is too long to type..
20:43:34 <Bike> ok this is boring. NEW BORING QUESTION: you all know what a palindromic integer is. what's a palindromic float
20:44:09 <newsham_> whats the last digit of a transcendental number?
20:44:34 <myname> does it have to be palindromic as a bitstream or as a decimal number?
20:44:35 <newsham_> what's the last digit of "1.0" for that matter?
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20:45:30 <Bike> i'm not quizzing you, i'm asking what you think it should be.
20:45:38 <myname> NaN should be a valid float palindrome :)
20:45:54 <newsham_> in the typogrpahic sense, i dont think the palindrome should be well defined
20:46:37 <newsham_> integers in a given base have a unique typographic notation.
20:46:49 <myname> maybe infinite, too, if you write it with the symbol
20:47:02 <myname> also, 0 is in every case (binary and decimal)
20:47:51 <newsham_> > let inf = show (1.0 / 0.0) in reverse inf == inf
20:49:23 <newsham_> ?let palinfloat x = show x == reverse (show x)
20:49:44 <newsham_> > palinfloat 1.09999999999999999999999
20:50:37 <myname> i disagree with the last one
20:51:07 <myname> also: why isn't thehre a lambdabot for xmpp mucs
20:52:12 <newsham_> ?faq can haskell code be abstracted so that bots can run across arbitrary chat networks?
20:52:13 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
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20:52:52 <myname> oh, there seem to be forks now
20:58:32 <olsner> > 1.09999999999999999999999
21:00:42 <olsner> kmc: also, could find (if you remove some boring things like -exec) be turing complete?
21:00:50 <olsner> (perhaps assuming no path length limit)
21:00:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `.'
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21:01:36 <Bike> > palinfloat 4000.0005
21:01:44 <Bike> > palinfloat 4000.0004
21:01:59 <Bike> > palinfloat 5000.0005
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21:07:07 <olsner> Bike: what's the widest possible palinfloat?
21:07:49 <Bike> > palinfloat 5000000.0000005
21:07:58 <Bike> > palinfloat 5000000000.0000000005
21:08:14 <Bike> > 5000000000.0000000005
21:08:24 <Bike> > palinfloat 500000000.000000005
21:08:30 <Bike> > 500000000.000000005
21:08:33 <Bike> > 50000000.00000005
21:08:40 <Bike> > palinfloat 50000000.00000005
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21:10:01 <olsner> > palinfloat (50000000.00000005 :: Double)
21:10:10 <myname> what to do with a .cabal file?
21:10:13 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a -> b0))
21:10:13 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1750005'
21:10:13 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Real.Fractional (b -> c),
21:10:13 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for `e_1750005':
21:11:22 <olsner> yeah, that's a pretty nice way of writing infinity
21:39:39 <Gregor> shachaf: http://qdb.us/309823 You're famous
21:40:53 <shachaf> does it even make sense without context
22:22:01 <int-e> Once upon a time, on an IRC channel far, far away. (that, or I don't get it.)
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22:39:05 <int-e> `hello help <-- won't work.
22:41:47 <int-e> fungot: maybe you can help out?
22:41:48 <fungot> int-e: used it to build distributable libraries. i already found it. it's an interesting characterisation.. you may pass.
22:41:50 <fungot> FireFly: if you put num first, you might want to try to make it
22:44:14 <olsner> fungot: will you be here for us always?
22:44:14 <fungot> olsner: sorry i'm slow, here.
22:45:58 <int-e> fungot: just take your time
22:45:59 <fungot> int-e: you wont have to bother packaging riatables for debian separately. :) at least i haven't seen any doomsday fnord in the last two black pieces and subtract the numbers on each row is being listed with the quotes
22:46:38 <int-e> fungot: tell me more about this doomsday fnord
22:46:38 <fungot> int-e: i could be wrong, but the drum and bass is at http://jungletrain.net.
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23:26:16 <int-e> fungot: have you firewalled your coffee machine?
23:26:29 <int-e> fungot: you disappoint me
23:26:29 <fungot> int-e: i was wowing the yowing. i'd like to use sxml document transforms.
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00:58:18 <fungot> boily: it suddenly occurred to me
00:58:24 <fungot> boily: interesting, but sounds hard to do
00:58:37 <boily> fungot: it's quite easy, if you practice enough.
00:58:37 <fungot> boily: why does he want to do. i.e. you can't do a length and then a srfi 7* program would be faster, but it
00:58:45 <boily> fungot: but it what?
00:58:45 <fungot> boily: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ files/ in at most two digits"... hmm, apparently there are parents in the us it is very rare. there are an estimated"
00:58:56 <boily> parents? in this chännel?
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01:26:12 <kmc> lol #dogecoin is bigger than #python
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01:44:50 <kmc> heh, I finally found a situation where if (foo() == false) is arguably preferable to if (!foo())
01:47:06 <kmc> if (astNode.getValue() == false) where astNode represents a Boolean literal in the syntax of some language we're compiling
01:48:12 <kmc> it's a quoted false in a sense. one might even call it metacircular :O
01:48:54 <kmc> of course having an imperatively-named "getValue" method on an object representing an AST node is awful, but that's not up to me
01:54:33 <boily> the False that can be Truthed is not the True False.
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02:01:38 <JWinslow23> Do any of you want to hear some acapella music I made?
02:02:29 <JWinslow23> It's the second half of the Family Guy theme.
02:03:58 <JWinslow23> https://www.mediafire.com/?a7hjyi1ifocas27
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03:08:33 <zzo38> Can you design a RPG computer game in SQL?
03:08:52 <Bike> No, because I fail at any task assigned to me.
03:09:35 <zzo38> O, OK, then don't do it by yourself.
03:09:54 <zzo38> Do you know how to program in SQL, or how to design a computer RPG game, whether or not you can actually do either?
03:10:29 <Bike> No, because my mind is a broad sieve.
03:10:52 <oerjan> can you die messily in a painful way?
03:11:02 <oerjan> (just checking the general state here)
03:11:34 <zzo38> Perhaps, with the correct tools, but, I am not dead!
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03:50:12 <kmc> bitcoin fireworks?
03:50:39 <kmc> we lost HackEgo in the Great Netsplit of 2014
03:53:52 <kmc> why's it crashing? mtgox finally kicked the bucket?
03:59:13 <kmc> "MtGox Resigns From Bitcoin Foundation, Deletes All Tweets From Twitter Feed"
04:00:50 <copumpkin> and blanked out their homepage just now
04:01:03 <copumpkin> there's also a fake-looking (but who knows) document floating around that says they lose all their coins
04:02:22 <ion> Where does one watch the fireworks?
04:02:36 <copumpkin> ##mtgox-chat or #bitcoin if you really want noise
04:06:34 <ion> I guess this is a representation of the fireworks. http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/bitstampUSD#rg2ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv
04:08:10 <zzo38> I made up some more chess variant: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MScatschess
04:08:12 <copumpkin> http://bitcoinity.org/markets/bitcoinbuilder/GOXBTC
04:08:17 <copumpkin> that's a reasonable representation of some of the fireworks
04:08:35 <ion> copumpkin: heh
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04:16:54 <zzo38> It was power failure
04:18:58 <pikhq> I bought one a couple days ago. They are nice to have.
04:24:10 <zzo38> I have a surge protector but the battery doesn't work.
04:24:42 <zzo38> I could not see the stars because the street lights were still working.
04:27:24 <kmc> "GOXBTC" lolol
04:27:28 <kmc> discount bitcoins
04:29:20 <kmc> copumpkin: so for things to get this way, I assume there are difficulties moving BTC in/out of Gox, as well as USD
04:29:35 <kmc> because the exchange is insolvent?
04:29:42 <kmc> well yeah ok ;)
04:29:44 <copumpkin> and yes, people speculate that they're insolvent
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04:36:29 <Sgeo> Do people ever get interested in non-live game streams?
04:36:36 <Sgeo> I want to try streaming some Worm Olympics
04:37:48 <pikhq> We call that "Let's Play"
04:38:56 <ion> It’s a function of how interested i’m of the game itself and how entertaining your commentary is.
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04:40:38 <zzo38> Someone wanted to video my game too, but someone else said, it should be someone who want to injure himself with a knife, since those people should play my game instead.
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05:01:54 <zzo38> Some of the functors/monads/etc used in Haskell programming are also applicable to arbitrary categories.
05:02:33 <zzo38> Such as, the constant functor, is compatible with any category.
05:03:13 <zzo38> What are some other ones which I did not know of?
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07:46:16 <ion> David Griffiths Lecture, Techfest 2012, IIT Bombay http://youtu.be/FY076-fEZ-s
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10:12:33 <zzo38> In order to encode some text the following table is in use: http://sprunge.us/gESV Is there a more efficient way to do the same thing instead of reading the table and interpreting the "instructions" in the table?
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10:47:52 <int-e> zzo38: are you asking whether the table can be compressed?
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10:52:26 <zzo38> int-e: No, but whether the program to read the table can be made more efficient.
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10:59:56 <int-e> zzo38: I'm not sure we've got enough context here. As far as I can make out, you have to read the thing, scan for occurrences of double quotes, and put the stuff between those quotes into successive entries of an array.
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11:02:33 <int-e> (In this particular table, you can also predict the offsets of those double quotes without much effort.)
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11:21:11 <zzo38> int-e: No, it automatically figures out the offsets.
11:21:33 <zzo38> And the double quotes aren't actually part of the table, nor are the spaces; they are just used to arrange it to display.
11:22:47 <int-e> I'll vote for "lack of context" then.
11:25:01 <Taneb> Wolfram Language is scary
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14:46:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: look at the page source
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14:49:48 <Phantom_Hoover> apparently they disabled withdrawals some time before this happened though (/r/bitcoin is *hilarious* right now)
14:51:31 <elliott> soon is probably a good time to buy BTC, by the way
14:57:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess the ecosystem might've moved away from mtgox enough to absorb the shock if it's been that dire for that long, though
14:58:09 <elliott> yes, mtgox had fiat problems much before it had btc problems
14:58:30 <elliott> I don't think it makes sense for it to crash permanently because of this, but maybe people are panicky enough for it to
14:59:02 <elliott> like, anyone with BTC in mtgox was already worried they might not really have that cash any more by this point?
15:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> wow even in these dark times /r/bitcoin continues to MEANWHILE: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1yutdk/we_are_witnessing_the_failure_of_a_company_the/
15:25:47 <int-e> maybe they'll reopen the magic the gathering online exchange
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15:26:20 <int-e> (that seemed like a sound business to me ... ;-) )
15:31:10 <int-e> ooh, xkcd ... "webring" ... that brings back memories.
15:39:25 <Phantom_Hoover> when it wasn't just a bunch of dry calculations to establish whether or not there are enough elephants to make an interplanetary burger chain
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16:33:02 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: this gets funnier and funnier the more i think about it
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16:43:03 <FireFly> I don't see anything particularily odd in the source of mtgox.com
16:45:12 <elliott> it used to have a comment saying like
16:45:17 <elliott> fill in mtgox acquisition announcement here
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17:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike: did you hear about the part where they supposedly lost hundreds of millions of dollars through shit security
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17:36:03 <zzo38> When I asked the people who configure my DNS to make a TXT record, he said it doesn't have a field to tell you what subdomain to associate it to.
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17:48:34 <zzo38> In case it helps, it is registered with GoDaddy.
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17:54:13 <zzo38> I do not understand.
17:54:44 <JWinslow23> Where a bot would make the rest of the body.
17:56:04 <zzo38> I don't even know if that is the correct syntax.
17:56:37 <zzo38> I have seen that some internet services at hotels and some stuff will not work except for DNS requests, until you pay. (In some the DNS might not work either) Can we serve the files through DNS records?
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17:57:22 <fizzie> It's a script, not a bot \o/
17:57:27 <fizzie> I guess it's not a work.
17:57:47 <JWinslow23> The same guy that made the MarioLANG interpreter and BF-MarioLANG converter, right?
17:57:49 <fizzie> Though it hasn't always worked at the beginning of a line, anyway.
17:58:26 <fizzie> He did the interpreter, yes.
17:58:37 <JWinslow23> (Note to self: Never press enter before ending message
17:58:42 <fizzie> But the \o/ script was myndzi's.
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18:14:07 <JWinslow23> Did you know that, every 7.79 seconds, an American Saggitarius named Amelia drinks a soda?
18:15:00 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i read that somewhere recently.
18:15:27 <oerjan> that's a pretty good guess.
18:16:14 <JWinslow23> Every 42.05 seconds, someone buys "To Kill a Mockingbird".
18:16:29 <JWinslow23> Every 1.82 seconds, a cat actually kills a mockingbird.
18:17:09 <oerjan> the thing that annoyed me about that one was that they were not ordered by frequency, so i had no idea how long to wait for some of them.
18:17:29 <int-e> clearly you should parse the gif files
18:17:58 <oerjan> as if that could decrease annoyance.
18:18:10 <JWinslow23> Here is a table: http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1331
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18:23:57 <int-e> "Whenever you edit wikipedia, God kills a human."
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18:41:46 <kmc> Gregor: whither HackEgo?
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19:15:49 <b_jonas> olsner: just look at the decoding in http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1331
19:16:26 <b_jonas> olsner: I mean, come on, for more than a year now Randall doesn't write proper transcripts of his comics, but the explainxkcd community does, so look at there for anything like this
19:17:51 <fizzie> b_jonas: Why are you (a) repeating a link that was just pasted, and (b) to a different person than the one who asked?
19:18:22 <b_jonas> I didn't see it was pasted, and yes, wrong nick
19:19:12 <fizzie> (I guess the latter is explained by oerjan sneakily sneaking out in the meanwhile.)
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19:33:26 <olsner> b_jonas: now I know :) out of curiosity, what did oerjan ask?
19:34:13 <b_jonas> olsner: < oerjan> the thing that annoyed me about that one was that they were not ordered by frequency, so i had no idea how long to wait for some of them.
19:34:17 <b_jonas> olsner: that's what he asked about that xkcd strip
19:37:16 <olsner> mmm, dogecoin explained: http://i.imgur.com/rPltYqf.gif
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19:49:14 <fungot> olsner: what version of stalin is that from? i don't understand
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19:53:48 <kmc> checking whether the C compiler works... no
19:54:13 <olsner> did it still consider your environment "sane"?
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19:54:56 <kmc> it's an android cross compile so i hope not
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19:55:44 <olsner> oh, through autotools? didn't think you could do that
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19:56:25 <kmc> hm? autotools supports cross compile yeah
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20:06:47 <kmc> fontconfig was only made thread-safe last year :/
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21:27:21 <kmc> http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/24/steve-jobs-statue-unveiled-ahead-of-installation-at-apples-cupertino-hq
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21:31:03 <kmc> fatal: You are on a branch yet to be born
21:31:13 <fizzie> http://www.nature.com/news/publishers-withdraw-more-than-120-gibberish-papers-1.14763 SCIgen hasbeen busy
21:31:26 -!- kmc has set topic: fatal: You are on a branch yet to be born.
21:31:37 -!- kmc has set topic: fatal: You are on a branch yet to be born | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:33:28 <fizzie> fungot: You should try writing a paper about something.
21:33:29 <fungot> fizzie: i entered nonlogic because it was quite cool. but i'm not on irc, and that's irrelevant.
21:34:30 <fizzie> fungot: You certainly *seem* to be on irc.
21:34:30 <fungot> fizzie: that's like sooo much better than that, though rather painful and my nose is both clogged annoyingly runny.
21:36:39 <olsner> clogged and runny, p. good combo
21:38:08 <olsner> kmc: what were you trying to do? maybe birth the branch before somethinging it
21:38:36 <kmc> just trying to fix my makefile :<
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21:44:56 <Bike> fizzie: i like how we can't even be sure we've got all the scigen. they walk among us, unseen
21:45:40 <Bike> @tell phantom_hoover shit security, bad investments in insolvent mortgages... pretty much the same, right?
21:46:32 <elliott> kmc: have you tried bonghits
21:48:34 <zzo38> Do you like this chess variant (one of the forms of Shatranj Kamil)? http://www.chessvariants.org/historic.dir/tamerlane.html
21:51:20 <kmc> elliott: not yet
21:51:26 <kmc> i'm at work you know
21:51:37 <elliott> well, if they want that makefile fixed...
21:56:07 <FireFly> fungot: a paper on nonlogic, eh?
21:56:08 <fungot> FireFly: heh then it's not defining it they're free to argue with that.
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22:03:18 <fizzie> fungot: How come you sound somehow different than the usual irc style?
22:03:18 <fungot> fizzie: this would be good to write a scheme program in terms of a compiler than manual memory management
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22:14:11 <zzo38> I asked before about strings searching, but really what I need is one that has multiple search strings, that search strings are preprocessed, and that the text to search in isn't preprocessed. I found some things about this in Wikipedia, but do you have more advice?
22:17:25 <zzo38> Would Commentz-Walter be better, or something else?
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22:41:12 <HackEgo> iotakercoin lahalixcoin karuacoin isccoin ><>coin lifecoin minifucoin slasscoin pasycoin etasismcoin eeblanzcoin wpcftioncitcoin owpcoin inscrecoin galcoin iricoin dhgcoin sincoin compcoin brackcoin
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23:07:06 <olsner> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1yvczv/stephen_wolfram_introduces_the_wolfram_language/cfo7o8c
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23:27:02 <zzo38> I looked at Wolfram Language; now they even say, the ARM version of Mathematica is now free of charge, and even the computer costs less than using the other computer.
23:28:44 <zzo38> However, it is slower than the normal version.
23:33:09 <FireFly> zzo38: how big is the set of strings to search for?
23:34:50 <zzo38> FireFly: At most 96 entries, although probably smaller.
23:35:02 <zzo38> The exact number of strings to search for is unknown.
23:35:50 <zzo38> And there are probably going to be many occurences of the search strings in the text.
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23:41:40 <zzo38> FireFly: The purpose of this is for compression.
23:43:55 <FireFly> I was thinking maybe you could put the strings to search for in a trie and step down the trie for each character you match..
23:46:15 <zzo38> Maybe it would. I would need to be sufficiently fast, as the amount of text to search in is probably going to be very large though.
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23:47:14 <ion> Welcome backego
23:47:57 <zzo38> The character codes only go up to 163, if that helps at all, although many of the codes aren't used. (There are actually some other character codes but they are ignored for purposes of compression.)
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23:53:55 <Sgeo> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/d158fc7f36a25e19791d25a55da5623399a2644f/fs/ext4/resize.c#L698
23:57:25 <kmc> I'm glad that Rust allows debug-printing of any value, even though this breaks encapsulation and parametricity and makes baby jesus cry
23:57:28 <kmc> it's fucking useful
23:57:55 <kmc> GHC kind of has this via its "debugger" feature
23:59:59 <lambdabot> EvilTerran says: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the phantom types began to take hold.
00:00:12 <elliott> kmc: that kind of thing should just exist in an unsafe module
00:00:17 <elliott> and be standard in the REPL
00:00:19 <olsner> not the desert quote I was looking for though
00:00:39 <kmc> that's a good quote tho
00:00:43 <kmc> @quote oasis
00:00:43 <lambdabot> chromatic says: My productivity increased when Autrijus told me about Haskell's trace function. He called it a refreshing desert in the oasis of referential transparency.
00:02:23 <olsner> neat, looks like chrome will actually keep allocating all available memory when you feed it infinite iframes
00:03:16 <Sgeo> kmc: _any_ value?
00:04:09 <kmc> believe so... fmt!("{:?}", x)
00:04:22 <olsner> beautiful syntax there
00:04:46 <kmc> it's not always /useful/ but it at least pulls apart structs, enums, etc
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00:05:44 <kmc> olsner: the format string syntax is close to Python's iirc (the newer syntax not the old printf-style one)
00:06:18 <kmc> I used to rant so much about how format strings are terrible but I've sort of come around because of how important they are to internationalization
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00:07:00 <kmc> and that includes things like reordering parameters, which printf-style can't do (or can it, there's some scary shit in there)
00:08:46 <olsner> I think gettext has something like that, %$1s or whatever the syntax was
00:09:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
00:09:37 <boily> good existential-Gregor evening!
00:10:14 <kmc> olsner: ah
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00:14:18 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. what were the emotions I was supposed to suffer from the other day?
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00:30:36 <Sgeo> I assume bitcoins are at a low these days?
00:30:49 <Sgeo> WOnder if they'll recover. Almost tempting to buy a bit
00:31:51 <olsner> what would /r/bitcoin do?
00:33:39 <kmc> Sgeo: me too
00:33:46 <kmc> olsner: mortgage their houses to buy more bitcoins
00:34:11 <Sgeo> Although, guess buying from Mt.Gox isn't really an option
00:34:24 <kmc> there are other exchanges though
00:34:34 <kmc> it's already recovered a lot from yesterday's crash
00:34:41 <kmc> http://bitcoinity.org/markets
00:35:03 <zzo38> I can find some information about some string searching algorithms in Wikipedia, but some of them don't give enough details.
00:35:04 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/1yvm6v/php_can_do_anything_what_about_some_ssh_mtgox/
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00:39:32 <JWinslow23> Do you wanna hear acapella music I made?
00:40:05 <boily> I'm currently on the phone with my mom, but I could listen to it later.
00:40:26 <JWinslow23> Just bookmark http://www.mediafire.com/listen/a7hjyi1ifocas27/FamilyGuyJosiahW.wav for later.
00:42:21 <Sgeo> Hmm. Maybe I shouldn't trust any exchanges with CC info
00:44:11 <JWinslow23> Whaddaya think of "Avoid the Pink"? http://js1k.com/2014-dragons/demo/1698
00:44:38 <JWinslow23> There's no laggin' with "Flappy Dragon"! http://js1k.com/2014-dragons/demo/1659
00:45:10 <Sgeo> It's difficult
00:45:36 <JWinslow23> I'm trying to rhyme the names all the time.
00:45:48 <Sgeo> Also, I could swear there were a million Flappy Bird like games before Flappy Bird, just with more connected tunnel
00:46:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: I believe you
00:48:23 <zzo38> Well, possibly, not quite one million.
00:49:48 <JWinslow23> Well, there were tunnel games beforehand.
00:52:24 <Sgeo> So why is everyone obsessed with this one particular one?
00:54:37 <JWinslow23> It existed a year before it became popular.
00:55:21 <Sgeo> kmc: why is this MTG person talkijng about you?
00:55:22 <Sgeo> "double sleeve, kmc perfect fits, kmc hyper mattes. deckbox or ultra pro sideloading binder."
00:55:34 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1ywtxp/people_with_p9_and_other_expensive_cards_how_do/cfogm7v
00:55:51 <JWinslow23> If the exterior a product the disposition and the specification is changed...
01:02:53 * boily is still on the phone, but with a friend.
01:03:07 <boily> and chatting with two other people at the same time, and being on IRC too.
01:03:12 <boily> I AM TOO SOCIAL! AAAAAAAARGH!
01:10:38 <JWinslow23> I'll try to make a Flappy Bird clone for Atari.
01:11:27 <zzo38> Can you make up the clone for Famicom?
01:14:55 <JWinslow23> I dunno a language that compiles for Famicom. :p
01:16:08 <zzo38> I use a variation of MagicKit.
01:16:26 <boily> JWinslow23: it's 6502 assembly, slightly reduced.
01:16:37 <zzo38> Decimal mode doesn't work.
01:17:09 <boily> JWinslow23: it is knowable. inhale the Knowledge. ask Someone who made actual assembly programs. (ie. not me.)
01:17:28 <zzo38> There is a BASIC interpreter for Famicom too
01:18:58 <boily> whenever someone says «OK», I read it as «O KAY», while hearing it in my head with oerjan's voice.
01:21:36 <boily> he he he. that's a subtle one :D
01:22:30 <boily> @tell oerjan you are not a Spanish ear. rest assured.
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01:55:57 <zzo38> Do you know if GCC supports declaring anonymous unions at top-level code?
01:56:57 <zzo38> It would be a useful thing to have.
01:59:48 <zzo38> Unfortunately it doesn't work properly.
02:00:48 <zzo38> It does not define an anonymous global variable. I want to do it so that it is like a union { ... } which is defined inside of a struct { ... } so it defines global variables that share memory with other ones.
02:01:01 <zzo38> Specifically, an array.
02:01:43 <zzo38> I also get a "expected specifier-qualifier-list before 'static'" error message.
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02:15:04 <Sgeo> I should try to wrap my mind around Idris
02:15:31 <Sgeo> I think I kind of get the oh/so True/choose thing
02:17:40 <Sgeo> Although it only really clicked after reading mailing list posts
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02:17:51 <Sgeo> Which isn't to say that it actually clicked fully
02:18:07 <Bike> is there not a regex for "the same character, twice"
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02:20:03 <Sgeo> Bike: wonder if that would make it able to process some not regular languages
02:20:11 <Sgeo> So, possibly an extension of the usual regex syntax?
02:20:21 <Bike> welll you can do it with backtracking obviously
02:20:27 <Bike> but i'm thinking about actual regular languages
02:21:05 <Bike> i think it's regular? i mean aa is obviously a regex, and so's bb, and so's (aa)|(bb), and you then just extend it to all characters of the alphabet.
02:21:41 <zzo38> Then it won't work if the alphabet is infinite
02:21:52 <Sgeo> the the function is interesting, in the sense that it's a function where Haskell would use syntax
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02:57:13 <zzo38> Can it be made a chess variant (or other games) like that one? http://www.chessvariants.org/404.jpg
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02:59:46 <kmc> zzo38: so you want two global variables which occupy the same space?
03:00:16 <Bike> stupid puzzle, making me wish i had a phrase dictionary to grep
03:00:28 <Sgeo> zzo38: how many 404 are in there. There's the dice + O, which I find amusing
03:02:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: The black and white stones near the top make 404 in binary numbers
03:02:56 <Sgeo> oh god i was thinking of a union-like thing and somehow was thinking cobol instead of c does this mean c is bad if a c feature made me think cobol
03:03:21 <kmc> c is bad, so yes
03:03:42 <zzo38> The stones on the bottom spell "ERROR" in Morse code.
03:04:00 <Sgeo> zzo38: neat (at both)
03:04:27 <zzo38> (I just noticed these things now, actually)
03:08:31 <kmc> zzo38: so where are anonymous unions allowed? only within other structs/unions?
03:09:12 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, inside of other structs/unions they are allowed, and can be useful, even if they are empty, which is also allowed.
03:09:26 <kmc> how useful empty?
03:09:59 <zzo38> They aren't usually useful empty, but it can sometimes be used if you just want the type but no data.
03:10:10 <zzo38> Or if you need to put data but none is needed.
03:10:31 <zzo38> Sometimes you may want a zero-length type for whatever reason.
03:11:44 <kmc> you can do something like this maybe https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/9222833
03:12:05 <kmc> i don't know if this violates GCC's aliasing rules or whatever else
03:12:34 <kmc> oh in fact it doesn't work with -O2 ;P
03:12:42 <zzo38> OK, but I need variables of different sizes, some of which are arrays, and some of which also contain structures. (Well, I *don't* need any such things, but I do have uses for such things.)
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03:23:40 <zzo38> Anonymous structures are also allowed in other structs/unions.
03:23:52 <zzo38> Sometimes I have them nested struct/union/struct/union/etc
03:24:01 <zzo38> (Although usually not that much!)
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03:36:47 <kmc> what is the point of an anonymous struct inside a struct?
03:38:40 <kmc> today I got into a discussion about C++ and I claimed that exceptions require far more runtime support than any other C++ feature, but is it true?
03:39:12 <kmc> you can compile exceptions in a way that doesn't require much runtime support but it slows down your code everywhere, which is also unlike most C++ features
03:39:19 <pikhq> What other features require nontrivial runtime support beyond what's in libc?
03:39:54 <pikhq> I mean, there *are* global initializers, but that's quite simple to support.
03:42:43 <pikhq> Well, you can still assign to/from an entire anonymous struct?
03:42:44 <zzo38> kmc: Well, generally you alternate between structs and unions inside of each other.
03:42:54 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Anonymous. Right.
03:43:07 <pikhq> Really weird alignment shenanigans?
03:44:46 * kmc thinks about whether RTTI requires anything nontrivial at runtime
03:44:55 <kmc> I think it's usually just accessing tables output by the compiler
03:45:59 <kmc> new[] / delete[] require the allocator to keep track of the number of elements somewhere
03:46:36 <pikhq> I'd call that pretty trivial though.
03:47:36 <pikhq> As in "literally just a matter of having operator new[] allocate space for an extra size_t"
03:50:57 <kmc> although the C++ FAQ claims that some compilers store the count in a separate hashtable instead http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq/num-elems-in-new-array-assocarray.html
03:51:11 <pikhq> I... but... why?!?
03:51:22 <kmc> makes it less bad to mix up delete and delete[] I guess
03:52:46 <pikhq> You could solve this by making operator new/delete do the same. :)
03:53:06 <kmc> store the count? sure, that wastes a word per allocatoun though
03:53:32 <pikhq> Of course then mixing up malloc/free and new/delete is dangerous, unless libc and libc++ cooperate.
03:54:07 <pikhq> If libc and libc++ cooperate then it probably doesn't. (it's pretty likely malloc already does just that)
03:54:14 * kmc imagines an implementation where objects allocated with new get an (address/required_alignment) which is even and objects allocated with new[] get an odd one
03:54:30 <kmc> pikhq: already stores the size?
03:54:33 <pikhq> (alternately C++ could implement its own allocator rather than using C's.)
03:55:10 <kmc> well you can also overload operator new etc., which is part of why mixing them up is bad
03:55:36 <kmc> maybe you have an object where individual allocations come from a pool and arrays don't
03:55:47 <kmc> C++ is on-topic in the esolangs channel, right?
03:55:53 <pikhq> Some mallocs do actually store the exact size.
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03:56:12 <pikhq> I think on Linux it's more common to not though...
03:56:13 <kmc> the size requested by the application?
03:56:25 <pikhq> Hrm, no, it would almost never be that.
03:56:37 <pikhq> Size actually used by the allocation, sure, but not that.
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03:56:54 <pikhq> word-per-alloc is probably not a huge cost though.
03:57:05 <kmc> I'm not sure...
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03:57:14 <kmc> definitely the C++ designers felt it was unacceptable to impose this cost
03:57:46 <pikhq> Well, obviously. Otherwise they would have had delete work on new[]'d things.
03:58:51 * kmc has written C++ for a machine with 64 bytes of RAM
03:58:55 <kmc> but I wasn't using new/delete...
03:59:22 <kmc> continuous chess-boxing
03:59:37 <pikhq> kmc: Course, at that point you're really writing a really weird dialect of C. :P
03:59:55 <pikhq> Well. I would hope.
04:00:09 <pikhq> Technically you still have a lot of C++'s goodies, like templates and such.
04:00:25 <kmc> I don't think I came up with an excuse to use templates
04:01:05 <pikhq> And you could probably manage to have an object or two.
04:01:18 <pikhq> (global, of course)
04:01:19 <kmc> yeah, I did (no virtual methods though)
04:01:32 <kmc> or on the stack, if they're small enough
04:01:34 <pikhq> (... or on the stack, *shrug*)
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04:02:21 <kmc> hm, you need special instructions to read/write data from flash; perhaps that would be a compelling use case for a smart pointer class template
04:02:41 <kmc> (and similar for arrays)
04:02:47 <zzo38> C and C++ have some bad features compared to BLISS.
04:02:54 <kmc> ^_____________^
04:04:14 <kmc> (well, reading anyway; supporting writing that way is probably a bad idea)
04:04:17 <pikhq> For any language, some feature of C or C++ is notably worse than in that language. :P
04:05:14 <kmc> it's weird how e.g. you don't get to overload operator[] separately for reads and writes; rather you have to return a reference or some kind of object with an operator= and the right kind of implicit conversion
04:05:41 <zzo38> Although C does have some good features too. Unfortunately I cannot find a BLISS compiler.
04:05:57 <kmc> one of the good features of C is that you can get compilers for it
04:06:05 <kmc> although this is also the cause of a lot of problems in the world
04:08:46 <pikhq> Yep. C runs everywhere.
04:08:54 <pikhq> For certain notions of "C".
04:08:55 <kmc> straight into walls
04:10:10 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is good that there is a lot of C compiler, so it help, to write C programs running on many computer.
04:11:37 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> C and C++ have some bad features compared to BLISS. <zzo38> Although C does have some good features too. Unfortunately I cannot find a BLISS compiler.
04:11:39 <HackEgo> 1169) <zzo38> C and C++ have some bad features compared to BLISS. <zzo38> Although C does have some good features too. Unfortunately I cannot find a BLISS compiler.
04:12:14 <zzo38> But I have a documentation of BLISS; it looks to have some very good features which nobody has ever implemented in any newer programming languages.
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04:14:27 <zzo38> Have you ever looked at it at all?
04:14:32 <zzo38> Wikipedia also has a article about it.
04:21:38 <zzo38> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLISS_(programming_language)
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04:22:52 <kmc> what are the best features?
04:24:16 <zzo38> O, I found a BLISS compiler that targets LLVM.
04:26:10 <zzo38> kmc: Macros, and the way the assignment syntax works seems to make a lot more sense, as well as its implementation of structures, literals, and I think you are allowed to put statements inside of expressions.
04:26:20 <kmc> statements in expressions is nice
04:27:30 <zzo38> However it does lack some things, such as data types.
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04:30:50 <zzo38> BLISS-M is a modern compiler, although it seems to be not quite the complete version yet.
04:30:53 <kmc> another weird thing about C++ is that operator overloading isn't just sugar for human consumption; it's also how you make your "smart" things usable in place of plain C constructs within templates
04:31:42 <kmc> the iterator "concept" is designed around operator* and operator[] and operator!= so that plain C pointers are usable as iterators
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04:33:57 <zzo38> kmc: Do you have an example of that?
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04:35:45 <kmc> well an idiomatic C++ loop (pre-C++11) is: for (foo::iterator it = obj.begin(); it != obj.end(); it++)
04:35:58 <kmc> and this will work even if foo::iterator is a typedef for a plain C pointer
04:37:17 <zzo38> And what exactly happens if it isn't a plain C pointer?
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04:38:40 <kmc> then the functions operator++ and operator!= are called on whatever type foo::iterator is
04:39:07 <kmc> oh, if you really want this to work properly then you use free functions begin(obj) and end(obj) instead of obj.begin() and obj.end()
04:39:19 <kmc> and those are overloaded to work on arrays as well as fancier container types
04:39:38 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand how it is working, now.
04:39:41 <kmc> (one of the few weird things C++ does *not* allow is adding methods to existing primitive types)
04:41:24 <kmc> I wonder if SFINAE means you can write a single template<typename T, typename I> I begin(const T &x) { return x.begin(); }
04:41:51 <zzo38> Did you try it to see if it work?
04:46:34 <zzo38> Then you should implement it as a macro if it helps.
04:53:36 <kmc> yes; it appears you can do begin(x) -> x.begin() generically http://codepad.org/x2QL4ISp
04:56:13 <kmc> i'm not sure how this is supposed to work without 'auto'
05:00:38 <zzo38> Is there a typeof command in C++?
05:00:57 <kmc> there is typeid()
05:02:41 <kmc> returns an object with some information about a type
05:03:14 <kmc> i suppose one way to do the above without auto would be: template<typename T> struct const_iterator { typedef typename T::const_iterator ty; }; template<typename T, size_t n> struct const_iterator<T [n]> { typedef const T* ty; };
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05:19:15 <HackEgo> miintecoin nandocoin taligacoin zephawcoin sendercoin infucoin anemcoin oracoin whittcoin yencoin pbfcoin crangcoin halthnolateftitcoin rnacoin uriecoin lesznycoin niccoin lo'reravecoin cirtcoin hanibcoin
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05:25:59 <oerjan> <fizzie> (I guess the latter is explained by oerjan sneakily sneaking out in the meanwhile.) <-- *MWA DE HA*
05:34:40 <fizzie> @tell boily I don't know what you meant at all SORRY
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05:40:04 <lambdabot> boily said 4h 17m 34s ago: you are not a Spanish ear. rest assured.
05:42:16 <zzo38> Now I am trying to implement Aho-Corasick. I don't need to match proper suffixes, so I can omit that part.
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05:47:07 <zzo38> It is part of a compiler to target Z-machine.
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07:13:37 <oerjan> (i mean, synchronicity)
07:13:45 <oerjan> (i just /whois'ed you)
07:14:22 <oerjan> WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE THEN
07:15:01 <oerjan> IF YOU HAVE TWO IPS, GIVE ONE TO THE POOR
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07:59:18 <ion> A crazy way to convert a 600mil DIP to 300mil. [LPC1114] http://youtu.be/n5LEEoskiaM
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08:42:39 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> whenever someone says «OK», I read it as «O KAY», while hearing it in my head with oerjan's voice. <-- wtf did you hear my voice
08:43:07 <oerjan> the voice of fridge logic
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11:31:27 <oerjan> quintopia: yo http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/resplicate/TagResPair.hs
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11:54:22 <lambdabot> fizzie said 6h 19m 41s ago: I don't know what you meant at all SORRY
11:54:22 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 3h 11m 42s ago: <boily> whenever someone says «OK», I read it as «O KAY», while hearing it in my head with oerjan's voice. <-- wtf did you hear my voice
11:55:28 <boily> oerjan: I never heard your real voice, but I know it is yours.
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14:15:28 <fizzie> "The Centre of Excellence in Intersubjectivity in Interaction --" quite a name.
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15:20:52 <Phantom_Hoover> there must be a 3-character one, and probably there are leftover 2-character ones
15:21:53 <tromp_> the shortest is a 0-character one
15:22:23 <ais523> [431] ais523 No nickname given
15:22:34 <ais523> 431 says that isn't a nick
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15:23:50 <ais523> there may be unclaimed two-character nicks where one of them is a punctuation mark
15:23:51 <[> registered ... but currently unused.
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15:32:02 <ais523> [`: I thought there'd be one
15:32:18 <ais523> are you going to register it now?
15:32:56 <[`> THE CYCLE CONTINUES
15:33:24 <ais523> will it be your default nick?
15:33:37 <int-e> it's so unbalanced.
15:33:55 <int-e> oerjan will be peeved.
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15:35:08 <`]> will this help?
15:35:12 <`]> (this nick isn't registered either)
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15:36:24 <`]> btw, oerjan just proved respairaite TC
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16:02:54 <[`> whats respairaite
16:03:37 <ais523> ResPlicate with the repeat count capped at 2
16:03:51 <ais523> and a few syntax changes
16:04:04 <ais523> also the lengths are forced to be even
16:04:12 <ais523> so that what's a repeat count and what's a length can be statically verified
16:10:26 <ais523> I did feel like there was too much power in resplicate, and that a tarpit version might be possible
16:12:49 <int-e> is there any cap on the length field?
16:15:38 <ais523> I guess that's the next step
16:15:40 <ais523> anyway, time to go home
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16:51:17 <JWinslow23> Anyone interested in Flappy Bird Atari?
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17:19:52 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Having [` and `] will only help if the people involved are careful in coordinating their comments hth
17:20:56 <[`> don't worry, it can still be balanced in the future
17:21:40 <fizzie> Perhaps there could be a `balance command that'd make HackEgo run through the logs and output the correct number of brackets.
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17:32:38 <zzo38> Does this look a correct implementation of Aho-Corasick? http://sprunge.us/VSQi
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18:24:16 <quintopia> @tell oerjan i sort of kind of get the construction. I recognize the methods at least. I'll have to study it a while to fully grok it (so as to figure out how to get rid of the m=1 pairs :P)
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18:33:00 <lambdabot> quintopia said 8m 44s ago: i sort of kind of get the construction. I recognize the methods at least. I'll have to study it a while to fully grok it (so as to figure out how to get rid of the m=1 pairs :P)
18:35:28 <quintopia> to be more specific, the only part that's not completely clear is the "anatomy of a core" part... and of course the haskell code since i don't speak haskell
18:35:53 <quintopia> but i'm sure it's just a matter of time and thought...your explanation seems solid
18:36:40 <zzo38> Do you know this Aho-Corasick? I found some slide-presentation and I want to know if you think it is correct.
18:36:58 <kmc> zzo38: write a test suite, maybe? QuickCheck?
18:38:49 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I can test it once I write the rest of the program but first I just ask if other people think it looks to be OK.
18:39:21 <oerjan> quintopia: it had to be haskell... ais523's eval hack was _screaming_ to be replaced by lazy evaluation :)
18:41:30 <quintopia> oerjan: well i am able to read it well enough to see that it should output ResPlicate directly...but the convert function is all greek.
18:41:39 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Look, a macroSD card: http://zem.fi/2014-02-26-macrosd
18:43:16 <quintopia> fizzie: i didn't know you=photography
18:43:58 <fizzie> I don't (much) do "actual" photography, I just like these silly fringe things.
18:44:30 <fizzie> Stitched panoramas, time-lapse things, and as a latest thing this macro stuff.
18:44:52 <quintopia> "Whale slaps Nova Scotia woman in the face" should i read this news y/n?
18:46:18 <kmc> fizzie: nice!
18:46:36 <kmc> have you seen bunnie's posts about microSD cards?
18:46:52 <fizzie> kmc: I had no idea the surface was like that, since it looks just textured-but-smooth to the eye.
18:47:41 <fizzie> Apparently I have. (I didn't recognize the name, but I did see at least this one run-arbitrary-code-on-the-card post.)
18:47:47 <kmc> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3554 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=918
18:48:04 <fizzie> The second one I hadn't read.
18:48:15 <kmc> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2946 is neat too
18:48:23 <kmc> also the whole rest of the blog
18:49:38 <oerjan> quintopia: i suppose my design layout section doesn't describe precisely how all the offsets are calculated, just putting ? in most spots. it _should_ be possible to grasp what's needed without reading the haskell code, but still...
18:51:26 <oerjan> of course i am accepting further questions.
18:59:14 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
19:00:04 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ paste.1014 \ paste.11282 \ paste.11437 \ paste.12235 \ paste.12391 \ paste.12738 \ paste.13150 \ paste.13287 \ paste.1368 \ paste.14273 \ paste.14276 \ paste.14992 \ paste.1
19:00:06 <fizzie> `run ls paste.* | wc -l
19:00:40 <fizzie> I don't think pastes are supposed to go *there*.
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19:00:51 <oerjan> indeed, what has happened. to the repository.
19:01:44 <oerjan> oh hm i suddenly have a hunch
19:03:09 <oerjan> fizzie: it was my `undo command, which is buggy about directories :(
19:03:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ hg diff -c "$@" | patch -R
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19:03:50 <fizzie> oerjan: hg is a hard mistress.
19:04:33 <oerjan> (well it's not my command, but my use of it had that effect.)
19:08:09 <oerjan> also, why didn't the change to quotes get reverted. sigh.
19:08:10 * kmc thinks about how to exploit the standard C memory vulnerabilites in Emscripten-compiled code
19:08:32 <kmc> e.g. if my Emscripten app has a vulnerable libpng and loads a malicious png, the attacker could get XSS-like powers in the hosting page
19:09:42 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:10:09 <oerjan> those pastes were all of the quotes database, anyhow.
19:10:30 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/cat: No such file or directory
19:10:45 <FireFly> er, there is a file called :-D in ~
19:11:16 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Feb 17 03:23 98076
19:12:28 <oerjan> fizzie: i suddenly have this vague recall that bugs in `undo have been previously discussed - if only `pastelogs worked.
19:15:28 <oerjan> elliott: hey you made bin/undo and it hasn't been changed. do you know why it might wrongly dump things into the top directory? and also miss some files.
19:16:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ hg diff -c "$@" | patch -R
19:17:13 <elliott> I suggest looking at the hg diff output when it breaks.
19:17:19 <elliott> that, and reading man patch
19:17:28 <kmc> shachaf: I think things like http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/73104/usenix05data_attack.pdf should still work, and maybe return-to-libc-style attacks, but not ROP (because there's no way to jump to the middle of a function, unless the JS engine has a bug)
19:17:49 <kmc> I'm not sure why that's a "shachaf: ", maybe because I think you sent me that paper, but maybe you didn't?
19:17:55 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 4468 | paste
19:18:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30692
19:19:12 <oerjan> `run mv paste/paste.30692 paste/paste-30692.txt
19:19:20 <olsner> I discovered nested content-encodings today, turns out at least opera and chrome support it (up to obscene nesting depths)
19:20:10 <oerjan> this seems to be crashing IE D:
19:22:18 <oerjan> `ls -l paste/paste.30692
19:22:20 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
19:22:24 <oerjan> `run ls -l paste/paste.30692
19:22:25 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 7586437 Feb 26 19:21 paste/paste.30692
19:24:56 <fizzie> Seems to be a lot of pastes and a single quotes change.
19:29:02 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 4468 | patch --dry-run -R | paste
19:29:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26081
19:29:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure why patch -R would put those in root when they're clearly in the "paste" subdir, though.
19:30:13 <oerjan> `run mv paste/paste.26081{,.txt}
19:30:48 <fizzie> That's what it seems to do, though.
19:31:30 <oerjan> `file paste/paste.26081.txt
19:31:31 <HackEgo> paste/paste.26081.txt: ASCII text
19:32:04 <oerjan> Gregor: why doesn't it get shown as text in browser :(
19:33:04 <fizzie> I think it's some weirdness in patch -R when the "new" file is /dev/null, like it is for deletions.
19:33:10 <oerjan> oh right the lines in quotes were deleted entirely later, so there's nothing to revert there.
19:34:36 <elliott> maybe hg has something that can do undo by itself
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19:35:17 <fizzie> FWIW, explicitly specifying the correct path stripping by adding a -p1 to patch -R makes at least that patch work.
19:35:31 <fizzie> (Can't guarantee if that's the case for any and all hg diff outputs.)
19:36:30 <fizzie> (Where "work" means creating the paste.X files in paste/ instead of ., nothing more.)
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19:40:58 <kmc> Emscripten C supports "inline JS" a la inline ASM
19:42:16 <olsner> hmm, not actual inline asm that accepts javascript?
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19:42:37 <fizzie> olsner: It's pretty much that.
19:42:52 <fizzie> Even the macro to include those is called EM_ASM.
19:43:11 <fizzie> I think I used that for something.
19:44:25 <kmc> what have you used emscripten for?
19:45:17 <fizzie> I compiled kissfft with it, and used it for an in-the-browser "turn an audio file to magnitude spectrogram image" and "turn a magnitude spectrogram image to an audio signal" wizard thing.
19:45:41 <fizzie> Except it's stuck being 90% done after I got sidetracked with other things.
19:46:02 <fizzie> The idea was that you could use that if you wanted to, say, draw on your sound in Gimp or something.
19:46:10 <quintopia> oerjan: i just assumed the ? would be filled in on the fly the same way the unknowns were in ais's. most of them seem to correspond to a linear function in c.
19:46:13 <kmc> olsner: well it works by processing the LLVM output of unmodified (?) clang; I don't know exactly how inline ASM is propagated through LLVM but it might upset clang
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19:47:11 <kmc> looks like EM_ASM(2+2) => emscripten_asm_const("2+2") and the LLVM-reading backend will turn that function call back into JS
19:47:22 <kmc> this all counts as esoprogramming right?
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19:47:46 * Bike reads last three lines in isolation. yes, yes it does
19:48:05 <kmc> I always thought of Emscripten as a really clever and amusing esoprogramming hack and so I was kind of terrified when I learned that Mozilla is nearly betting the company on it
19:48:29 <kmc> but (with asm.js) it works far, far better than it has any right to
19:48:35 <fizzie> I was about to say that you might be hurting the feelings of the emscripten folks by calling it esoprogramming.
19:48:43 <elliott> kmc: how is it nearly betting the company on it?
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19:49:40 <kmc> as in, you can get a million line commercial AAA game engine running with good performance in a week
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19:51:31 <kmc> elliott: well moving more kinds of content to the web platform is a major goal
19:51:52 <oerjan> quintopia: being haskell, they're filled out lazily. and yes the functions are linear, somewhat in c but also in i, the current state index.
19:51:54 <kmc> and Emscripten+asm.js is the approach for doing this for high performance graphics-intensive "native" apps, i.e. games
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19:52:18 <kmc> without expecting game publishers to do a ton of work
19:53:19 <elliott> kmc: how does shumway fit into that picture?
19:53:27 <kmc> the goal is that porting a game to run in Firefox is no harder than porting it to another console / mobile OS
19:53:34 <elliott> what if you just emscriptenned lightspark or something :3
19:53:37 <kmc> (which is especially important now that Firefox is a mobile OS)
19:54:12 <kmc> elliott: ha well that's how I got to thinking about exploits; what if we could just get Adobe to give us the source to Flash (as they have for Google and apparently Microsoft) and we compile it to JS
19:54:26 <kmc> but fuck that, Shumway is much cooler
19:54:30 <elliott> can't you just write an x86 -> asm.js compiler
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19:56:33 <kmc> can't we just use http://bellard.org/jslinux/
19:56:46 <kmc> FABRICE BELLARD HAS A POSSE
19:59:17 <elliott> I'm actually kinda serious
19:59:24 <elliott> like that could be a nacl type dealie
19:59:39 <elliott> if you can do C -> asm.js it's probably feasible to do x86 -> asm.js to some degree?
20:00:25 <elliott> but: flash is way too slow anyway, I don't see even emscripten with the source code as viable??
20:00:32 <elliott> especially for video decoding
20:00:59 <kmc> yeah I don't know how Shumway handles / will handle video
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20:01:05 <kmc> that seems like an important use case
20:01:16 <kmc> YouTube may embrace HTML5 but there is a long tail of video sites that don't give a shit
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20:01:43 <kmc> especially the ones providing the kind of... video content that has historically played a huge role in technology adoption
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20:01:59 <elliott> I'm sure some porn site has advertised HTML5 support.
20:02:16 <elliott> well, firefox can do H.264 and stuff now because of binary blobs, right?
20:02:26 <elliott> probably *faster* than flash can -_-
20:02:45 <kmc> oh I guess all the sites that support iOS will have a non-Flash version
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20:18:08 <oerjan> quintopia: mind you, it's not as on the fly as it _could_ have been, i do use explicit formulas for stuff. but before i realized anything else was overkill, at one point i considered making a label-tracking monad.
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20:23:36 <fizzie> YouTube's "embracing" of HTML5 seems p. flaky.
20:24:01 <fizzie> Anecdotally speaking, I've been getting a lot more Flash videos than HTML5 videos lately, even having opted-in.
20:24:38 <fizzie> (It's easy to notice, because Flash defullscreens when I move focus to another monitor, while the HTML5 player doesn't.)
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20:31:14 <impomatic> Does anyone live near Nottingham, UK? http://geekup.org/events/385/
20:31:29 <impomatic> "Peter Cooper presents a quick tour of the long history of robot-based programming games"
20:34:06 <Bike_> fizzie: same. they've had this beta for what, months
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20:35:08 <kmc> the hams hex and notting
20:35:20 <fizzie> Bike_: http://youtube-global.blogspot.fi/2010/01/introducing-youtube-html5-supported.html -- four years and a bit.
20:35:57 <fizzie> Better safe than sorry, y'see.
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20:36:16 <Bike> I was going to say "years" but i figured i must be exaggreating
20:37:25 <oerjan> kmc: don't forget birming
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20:41:10 <kmc> are there #esotericans in the ham of birming?
20:42:15 <olsner> how many hams are there?
20:42:42 <kmc> a lot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_forms_in_place_names_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_Ireland
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20:43:21 <kmc> it's an old english word meaning "farm" or "homestead"
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20:43:28 <kmc> i suppose that the modern word "hamlet" is related
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20:43:44 <olsner> hamlet sounds like it means small ham
20:44:44 <olsner> that or a port or harbour
20:49:34 <Bike> are you telling me you're not a sham
20:49:37 <Bike> i feel... betrayed
20:50:01 <newsham> just a n00b in the shire, i'm afraid
20:50:15 <Bike> is the sham that you're not a sham
20:54:59 <Taneb> kmc> the hams hex and notting Well, dur
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20:58:50 <newsham> try standing on your head and reading it upsdie down
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21:02:29 <oerjan> btw i was speaking to Taneb hth
21:04:50 <Taneb> You know, I don't think I know anyone actually from York
21:06:37 <oerjan> maybe there aren't any.
21:06:53 <oerjan> perhaps everyone in york is from elsewhere.
21:07:15 <kmc> fun fact: York used to be known as Amsterdam
21:08:54 <oerjan> i think ic what you did there, except on the incredibly unlikely chance that it's literally true.
21:09:14 <Taneb> (oerjan, it is not literally true)
21:09:25 <Taneb> (York was known as Eboracum, then later Jorvik)
21:10:23 <olsner> oerjan: if so, it wouldn't be a fun fact
21:11:11 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
21:11:50 <olsner> This sentence is (not?) a fun fact when preceded by fun fact.
21:12:03 <Taneb> `learn York used to be known as Amsterdam.
21:12:40 <newsham> what was portishead known as before?
21:12:57 <newsham> "even old new york was once new amsterdam"
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22:21:43 <fungot> FireFly: you are using mit scheme. :) for me,
22:21:59 <FireFly> fungot: I actually haven't tried MIT Scheme
22:21:59 <fungot> FireFly: interesting comparison :) congradulations." --olin shivers' original papers on scsh, so that *it* gets the job done
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22:25:49 <fizzie> FireFly: I think fungot's implying you should.
22:25:50 <fungot> fizzie: say hello, world!" looks like thorn. he's also my advisor... i'm fucked))
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22:47:05 <impomatic> If anyone is in Vienna, there's a Core War workshop at Metalab on Friday :-)
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23:34:25 <HackEgo> lircoin bridictagcoin merecoin smatiocoin sorycoin bryotcoin basecomcoin oracoin inecoin reverdenitumcoin ischecoin bubbllcoin lakadeliuacoin mosteputrcoin vcoin netinuscoin gotcoin pooncoin mempocoin falcoin
23:37:25 <kmc> http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/fizzbuzz.htm
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23:42:45 <Bike> nice n practical
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02:16:32 <Sgeo> Should I try F#?
02:17:15 <kmc> sure why not
02:17:29 <Sgeo> It would be a very functional language in a mainstream IDE
02:17:43 <Sgeo> (That is more of a reason why than a reason why not)
02:18:18 <Sgeo> Also, Idris type providers took the idea from F# apparently, and it seems like an interesting (and good) idea
02:18:25 <kmc> i don't know what "very functional language" means but a few years ago I would have enjoyed arguing about it at length
02:18:41 <Sgeo> Well, more 'functional' than most mainstream languages?
02:18:54 <Sgeo> (Also ripe for arguing about)
02:19:16 <Sgeo> I don't intend to actually state any opinions suggestive of what I think about F#, at least before I start to learn it
02:19:32 <Bike> picturing your opinion posing in lingerie
02:27:05 <Sgeo> Massiva - MIDI sequencer for Windows 95/98
02:28:29 <Bike> jsut gonna picture everything sgeo refers to in lingerie from nwo on
02:35:01 <coppro> what a spectacular annihilation
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04:38:59 <ion> zsh: /home/ion/.local/share/Steam/SteamApps/common/Portal 2/portal2.sh: bad interpreter: /bin/bash^M: no such file or directory
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04:43:08 <HackEgo> sumamerlancoin q-balcoin fobberwacoin suxeracoin cutcoin headeltapcoin hexcoin xsmickringcoin rocerecoin flipcoin jgovtocoin amaccicoin gillmarcoin lazzlatlniancoin fubftrcoin flvcoin condicoin louxcoin quangcoin fruhrberwancoin
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04:48:41 <HackEgo> befucoin buccoin nybocoin unbrcoin ted!coin tomiacoin patsrecoin rodyscriptcoin orocoin bencerecoin udainloncoin boobbycoin bawlecoin barburingcoin isoroupcoin snaiacoin hollengraphthisesocoin doflorumcoin cheffolksworkcoin birdetrcoin
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05:03:13 <ion> Switching from the standard Portal 2 (Beta) to the Portal 2 (Beta) [beta] helped.
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05:12:29 <kmc> ion: is it a neutrinoless double beta
05:14:13 <kmc> "he asked if I was a PGP user but I heard 'PCP user'"
05:18:14 <Bike> is there any software for breaking old ciphers? like substitution and vignere and shit, nothing you'd use nowadays? or does everyone just write their own
05:19:41 <kmc> maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrypTool
05:20:22 <Bike> dunno if that's what i want but it looks neat.
05:20:23 <kmc> somebody in ##crypto was claming that CrypTool could distinguish an AES-CTR ciphertext from randomness without knowing the key
05:20:55 <kmc> crypto attracts more than its share of crackpots
05:25:17 <Bike> basically i have a ciphertext corpus of probably-a-substitution-cipher and i'm wondering if i should just break it myself, or write a program to break it for me
05:30:43 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/pvFCifh.png astronomy is weird
05:30:47 <Bike> astrology rather
05:31:07 <kmc> zzo38ology
05:33:55 * oerjan learns from that that the southern cross isn't actually the constellation containing the south pole
05:36:21 <oerjan> also, except for the "family" part which looks suspect, i suspect most of that is astronomy.
05:40:33 <oerjan> well, bayer and la caille are astronomical, and the zodiac would be historical, but the rest i've never heard about.
05:41:27 <oerjan> as divisions of the sky, that is.
05:42:05 <kmc> somehow that chart reminds me of http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/nonmonogamy2.5.1.gif
05:42:30 <fizzie> ion: What, is Portal 2 now in LinuxSteam also?
05:43:15 <fizzie> (http://sprunge.us/CWhL also looks suspicious.)
05:44:13 <oklopol> is it cheating to temporarily fall in love on purpose in an open relation ship if you have a just-sex rule
05:44:32 <oklopol> just wondering because there is no intersection between cheating and open relationship
05:45:33 <kmc> "fall in love on purpose" is a weird concept
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05:54:34 <kmc> i don't vouch for the accuracy or usefulness of that chart, I just think it's amusing
05:55:00 <kmc> it is definitely possible to cheat in an open relationship
06:04:21 <oerjan> the astronomical chart definitely is less confusing
06:04:28 <oerjan> (and less overlapping)
06:06:57 <ion> fizzie: yeah
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07:04:46 <password2> oklopol, if you fall in love with another person , you may have never been in love with the first person
07:05:47 <oklopol> it's still cheating if you don't love your partner
07:05:57 <oklopol> at least according to my definition
07:06:56 <kmc> i would say that "cheating" just means breaking the agreed-to rules, whatever they may be
07:07:42 <oklopol> well okay if we agree on that, then i guess my original question is pretty stupid
07:07:48 <kmc> but I also think "would this upset my partner" is at least as important as "does this meet the definition of cheating"
07:08:45 <oklopol> yeah i usually check whether the feeling my partner will get meets the definition of upset before doing anything
07:09:44 <kmc> password2: may have, sure, but it is also possible to truly love more than one person
07:12:11 <fizzie> Sounds like a song title.
07:13:05 <olsner> hmm, what's that i,i thing again?
07:13:12 <kmc> it means "i have no point, I just like saying"
07:13:28 <shachaf> "The grave's affine and private place, / But none, I think, do there embrace."
07:19:58 <kmc> when a couple has two children nobody is like "well that means you didn't *really* love the first one"
07:20:02 <kmc> idk, maybe some people do think that way
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07:23:06 <shachaf> maybe you love each of them half as much as a result
07:23:54 <kmc> that seems pretty ridiculous though
07:23:58 <shachaf> and the more incoming love you have the more you have to distribute
07:27:14 * kmc goes back to thinking about what the eigenvalues of the hookup graph represent. and anonymizing multi-party protocols for computing said graph
07:27:27 <fizzie> #esoteric - applying linear algebra to feelings since [insert ridiculous year].
07:27:35 <kmc> minding the gap since 1996
07:27:56 <kmc> I think that applying linear algebra to feelings is big business now
07:28:12 <shachaf> i should learn linear algebra
07:28:19 <kmc> you should read Nielsen and Chuang
07:28:33 <fizzie> "LOST: Our B&K 4153 artificial ear is missing black circular plate, --"
07:28:42 <shachaf> normally i would put that in my file of things to maybe read
07:28:53 <kmc> fizzie: wow, that's an actual thing
07:28:59 <fizzie> https://www.dropbox.com/s/aww14dg5sis59z2/bk4153.png
07:28:59 <shachaf> but that file is on a disembodied hard drive
07:29:11 <ion> I wish i had a binaural microphone thing.
07:29:25 <kmc> fizzie: the one on the right is labeled in Comic Sans??
07:29:51 <fizzie> kmc: It's apparently a photo of the actual unit they have, the one that's missing the black circular plate.
07:29:59 <fizzie> I don't know how one loses something like that, though.
07:30:03 <olsner> it seems to be missing a foot pad too
07:30:12 <kmc> "#Huawei Rotating CEO announced FusionSphere"
07:30:26 <kmc> apparently Huawei have 3 rotating CEOs in addition to the usual, stationary CEO
07:30:42 <ion> One for each axis
07:30:46 <fizzie> olsner: I see they've fixed it with utmost professionalism.
07:31:31 <olsner> it looks expensive too, I don't think it's been treated with the appropriate respect
07:31:43 <kmc> hehe "stuff some paper under it"
07:31:47 <kmc> looks like tissue even
07:32:55 <fizzie> Couldn't find a price with a quick search, there's just a "request a quote" button at the B&K page.
07:33:01 <fizzie> That is usually code for expensive, though.
07:33:49 <kmc> if you have to ask, it's too much
07:34:02 <ion> I’m sure all the companies have done the math, but it’s unintuitive to me that they’ll maximize sales by hiding their prices.
07:34:31 <kmc> sometimes it's about selling you ``custom'' ``solutions'' that happen to cost exactly as much as they think you're willing to pay
07:34:45 <kmc> that's why all enterprise software is "customized" despite this being a massive pain for everyone
07:36:50 <fizzie> Apparently these days you can also buy ones that look... well, like this: http://www.gras.dk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/4/3/43ag_web.jpg
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08:09:52 <oerjan> if anyone here has access to a really badass PC (more than 32 simultaneous CPU threads) tromp_ may need your help https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=485170.0
08:10:47 <oerjan> also http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1ytrld/help_wanted_testing_new_proofofwork/
08:12:25 <Bike> why is every parallel thing i see about fucking bitcoin ;_;
08:12:26 <fizzie> htkallas@hippu3:~> cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep 'processor' | wc -l
08:12:35 <fizzie> Sadly, it's not for playing around with.
08:12:50 <fizzie> Also load average: 13.10, 12.88, 12.29 it's kind of busy at all times.
08:12:51 <oerjan> note, that is _strictly_ more than 32.
08:13:39 <oerjan> Bike: he is actually trying to test if his new scheme is _immune_ to easy parallelization.
08:14:09 <oerjan> it's intended to be bound by memory latency, rather than cpu speed
08:15:39 <oerjan> also, i guess this means he wants those > 32 threads on a single chip
08:15:46 <Bike> why would you intend that, out of curiosity
08:16:13 <fizzie> oerjan: "The largest machine I have access to has 32 threads (dual 8 core hyperthreaded)" -- that sounds like two chips to me.
08:16:37 <oerjan> fizzie: ok maybe single motherboard, whatever (I AM NOT GOOD AT HARDWARE)
08:16:51 <fizzie> (hippu3 is 4*8 cores, apparently without hyperthreading.)
08:17:32 <fizzie> hippu1 and hippu2 would be 8*4 cores both, and hippu4 is identical to hippu3. So they all go up to 32 only.
08:17:42 <Bike> oerjan: do you just mean they should share ram...?
08:17:43 <oerjan> Bike: he wants "normal" computer hardware to be competitive at mining
08:18:09 <Bike> a nice goal and all, but i would think the love of money destroys any hope of that.
08:19:07 <oerjan> Bike: well the idea is to have something that you _cannot_ make enormously more efficient with custom chips
08:19:19 <Bike> yeah, i get that.
08:19:25 <oerjan> (i.e. asics, which afaiu have completely taken over bitcoin mining)
08:19:44 <Bike> i just think somebody motivated by money will probably break it. vague prediction, i know.
08:19:52 <Bike> maybe they'll get custom ram to get less latency, lol
08:20:33 <oerjan> Bike: well i recall tromp saying to the effect that if someone manages to design less latency ram, everyone wins anyway
08:20:54 <Bike> yeah, and if we get better parallelization from bitcoin everyone wins anyway too, i suppose
08:23:18 <oerjan> and also, i think coin mining is not profitable enough to pay for doing fundamental hardware research...
08:24:30 <Bike> god, i hope so
08:24:48 <Bike> but it apparently is profitable enough for people to make asics??
08:28:08 <oerjan> yeah but that's not necessarily true invention, i think i read something like that they get their increased efficiency by being all cpu and no memory... which means tromp's scheme would totally crush them.
08:28:31 <oerjan> (he may have been the one who said it, or it was in one of his discussions)
08:30:46 <Bike> oerjan: it's not invention, i just mean asics are pretty damn expensive as i understand
08:47:45 <HackEgo> subsercoin fluebuacoin pistcoin vowelscoin tweeacoin twentcoin hungcoin qakacoin recucoin doncoin thuecoin unracoin orocoin dupcoin quing-bookcoin schecoin ortecoin parcecoin retacoin domcoin
08:48:24 <myname> also, domcoin for bdsm sites
08:48:29 <kmc> thue-morsecoin
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10:05:10 <ion> You can buy the full version of WinRAR with unracoin.
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10:26:12 <ion> password2: It’s important to know about all the new cryptocoins so we can invest in them.
10:27:09 <password2> so you have a bot that looks for wors containing coin ?
10:27:21 <ion> `run cat bin/coins
10:27:21 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
10:28:17 <HackEgo> deponscenc niorum guilizier gounde masastii hor hyth chrif lan oife cobdelby behoo hassaling murmed nondani giadamaby sna trim theed berton
10:29:45 <HackEgo> norma humallansa ankohteväksen käyvinansa vikseen hoiltasi lauksistänsä arkoitumasta siden fysisään
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12:06:45 <fizzie> Man, that snarxiv game -- http://snarxiv.org/vs-arxiv/ -- is quite hard.
12:07:41 <fizzie> For a non-physicist, anyway.
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12:17:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
12:17:59 <ais523> I think I've found the explanation; apparently some Ubuntu VMs have en_NZ installed but not en_US
12:18:07 <ais523> in their default config
12:28:24 <elliott> the explanation is gregor set it to that
12:35:13 <Taneb> Today I'm going to enter an arduino competition that I do not really know much about
12:39:26 <oklopol> Taneb: was your esolang creation event already
12:39:50 <Taneb> I didn't think it went well but the audience enjoyed it
12:40:28 <oklopol> can i see an example program
12:42:37 <ais523> elliott: I mean, why he choe that setting
12:44:07 <elliott> ais523: he chose it to amuse himself
12:44:12 <elliott> it was unset or something before
12:44:40 <ais523> markov chain, I think, the same way as fungot
12:44:40 <fungot> ais523: playing mmorpgs again? :p. ugh i need to look at
12:44:51 <oklopol> those are pretty good except for the horrible lack of vowel harmony
12:46:02 <elliott> `pastlog Markov assumption 0
12:46:33 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pastlog: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
12:47:35 <fizzie> If I don't misremember, it's character trigrams.
12:47:58 <fizzie> So very close to fungot indeed, except with characters instead of words, and a fixed context size.
12:47:58 <fungot> fizzie: that's how all the various variations on which link exactly is weak). i'm tempted to participate in cycling through finland every year, but at some point back in 2.4.x.
12:49:12 * ais523 imagines fungot cycling through Finland
12:49:12 <fungot> ais523: if ( ( if ( move) ( mark 1 300) doesn't seem to define any s-expression based language and turning it into a string
12:49:26 <ais523> I can't really imagine what fungot looks like in person, so my mental image just has a bike zooming along by itself
12:49:27 <fungot> ais523: this will actually be more like doctors learning 100 year old techniques to see what advice you get.
12:50:46 <fizzie> I think I used fungot's Perl babble generator to make up words at one point, by just interspersing in spaces before training, and tr -d ' ' after output.
12:50:47 <fungot> fizzie: check the ,in command does.
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13:22:35 <fizzie> <html lang="en-US-x-Hixie"> -- HTML5 spec at w3.org.
13:23:22 <ion> Hah, brilliant.
13:30:11 <ais523> what would be great would be if Hixie added the -x- suffix to languages just for that purpose
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13:38:10 <elliott> ais523: -x- is standard, afaik.
13:38:27 <ais523> elliott: yeah, I'm wondering if hixie added it to the standard specifically for that purpose
13:38:54 <elliott> the HTML standard does not control language codes
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14:31:28 <ion> UK spy agency intercepted webcam images of millions of Yahoo users http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo
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14:50:03 <fizzie> [[ The document estimates that between 3% and 11% of the Yahoo webcam imagery harvested by GCHQ contains "undesirable nudity". ]]
14:50:11 <fizzie> As opposed to all the desirable nudity.
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15:59:55 <int-e> ion: well, if you collect the whole haystack, you're bound to also collect some muck, mold and other undesirables.
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16:31:21 <kmc> on what day do we celebrate the feast of Saint Fungot?
16:31:31 <kmc> fungot: do you know?
16:31:31 <fungot> kmc: it's on the talk page discusses them,
16:44:36 <quintopia> does fungot even have a wiki article?
16:44:36 <fungot> quintopia: basil is the one with proper mark behavior and visualization of the stack could be popped and pushed etc...
16:46:17 <impomatic> I'm going to the Sinclair Weekend in Cambridge on Saturday :-)
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16:49:00 <quintopia> fizzie: does not fungot deserve a wiki page
16:49:00 <fungot> quintopia: no, i don't care enough about country borders now to want to apply the subtraction operator on strings; meaningfully ofcourse
16:51:22 <ais523> wow, that's 100% perfectly grammatical up to the semicolon (allowing for the lowercase i)
16:55:30 <fizzie> quintopia: I have to admit I've never happened to think about the idea.
16:56:33 <fizzie> fungot: Can you write your own page?
16:56:33 <fungot> fizzie: what is how? i assume, at least one snake?
16:56:45 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, that's a reasonable assumption.
16:56:46 <fungot> fizzie: and it hasn't showed up either :-p) if that's what you mean with properly?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 1080 myself
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17:11:11 <quintopia> fizzie: approximately how many commands does fungot use atm? (i know it would be pointlessly tedious to actually count, but i suspect you can get an estimate quickly)
17:11:11 <fungot> quintopia: s/ _/)/ it's the 3d models.
17:11:23 <oerjan> <ais523> `` sh -c "echo $LANG"
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17:16:07 <ais523> oerjan: I tried to do that first
17:16:18 <ais523> and came to the incorrect conclusion about why it didn't work
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17:27:15 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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17:28:02 <kmc> `addquote <fizzie> fungot: Can you write your own page? <fungot> fizzie: what is how? i assume, at least one snake?
17:28:02 <fungot> kmc: and sequences respond to .each, and they made it read as 3 characters) error i got was wet. not any closer to deciding what project to work on my irc skillz)
17:28:05 <HackEgo> 1170) <fizzie> fungot: Can you write your own page? <fungot> fizzie: what is how? i assume, at least one snake?
17:28:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:28:47 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:37:12 <kmc> fungot: at least one snake
17:37:13 <fungot> kmc: i would like to point out that, in reality, other expenditure will decrease sharply in the context of a diversified diet and in line with customs and traditions in this area as in many poor countries, the united kingdom experience would be valuable for the other members have said, that we were concerned, the two amendments, amendment nos 12 and 13.
17:37:33 <kmc> fungot: what about amendment no 14?
17:37:33 <fungot> kmc: madam president, by expressing the fnord rejection of a request made on 17 april 1996 whose purpose was to give birth to a law which has been taken up. but i would like to know whether the united states
17:40:09 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
17:40:21 <impomatic> fungot: what should I call my next corewar bot?
17:40:22 <fungot> impomatic: as my mind reeled amidst this chaos of intellectual and emotional groveling a few free souls have always stood out for the bungalow on the following day still travelled toward the hummock, though that is no reason to doubt the bulk of my fnord fnord for the titan mountains, might conceal.
17:41:19 <oerjan> <quintopia> does fungot even have a wiki article? <-- NOW IT DOES
17:41:20 <fungot> oerjan: i hardly knew whether to call them steps or mere footholds in a precipitous descent. my mind, akeleys whispered paragraphs had affected me profoundly, and he wondered, too, and had grown used to listening for sounds in the great southern desert of arabia, where irem, the city of gugs which is fnord with the keenest interest; noting from the relative quantities of various reagents on the shelves fascinated him unutterabl
17:41:33 <impomatic> fungot: thanks, but it needs to be under 25 characters.
17:41:33 <fungot> impomatic: poe's spectres thus acquired a convincing malignity possessed by none of their predecessors, and established a new standard of realism in the annals of my own presence in this terrible necropolis fnord the act of pausing with warren before a certain half- obliterated sepulcher and of throwing down some burdens which we seemed to have no ending. no trace of
17:43:16 <fizzie> There are 8654 non-whitespace characters in the main source file, discounting the large block of comments in the end, and the settings-setter/loader that are in a separate file.
17:43:32 <fizzie> Some of those characters are part of strings, and some are inline comments.
17:44:41 <oerjan> somehow i ended up lowercasing fizzie's nick but not fungot's
17:44:41 <fungot> oerjan: i recall glimpsing the archway to the room of machines, within which were fantastic ruins of metal, half buried beneath fallen vaulting. everything was shadowy fnord, as lake had been giving throughout the preceding weeks, some of which were thickly covered with mystic symbols and formulae, historical notes and philosophical
17:46:02 <fizzie> Also the code with all whitespace removed (and then reformatted to 80 columns) looks quite silly, http://sprunge.us/dZHK
17:46:13 <fizzie> Quite a lot of it seems to be actually strings.
17:47:03 <fizzie> (Also that's more like what a "proper" Befunge program "should" look like; a single dense block.)
17:48:38 <kmc> oh befunge actually has a standardized extension for sockets? cool
17:48:53 <fizzie> Funge-98, if you want to be exact about it.
17:48:59 <fizzie> Befunge-93 doesn't have any extensions at all.
17:50:27 <quintopia> oerjan: should we have a category for "programs written in esolangs". we do have a lot of pages which are dedicated to them. also, should the fungot page have a listing of fungot's commands?
17:50:27 <fungot> quintopia: the lovecraft library wishes to extend its gratitude to eulogio garca recalde for transcribing this text. he had visited in his travels and who plainly claimed to be survivals or fnord of it.
17:52:20 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm not against either of those
17:53:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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17:57:37 <fizzie> quintopia: FWIW, fungot does have a "manual" of sorts in the github README -- https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/README.md -- that a hypothetical page could link to.
17:57:38 <fungot> fizzie: arthur jermyn was the son of alfonso and rightful heir to the castle. to me, but i for one am tired of passing up the main deposits and merely seeking separate crystals out of jungle fnord. sometime i'll urge the wiping
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18:00:15 <ais523> btw, oerjan's busy making the page atm
18:01:09 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling APPRECIATED?
18:01:09 <fungot> fizzie: by h. p. lovecraft and c. m. eddy jr. the horned and hooved almost-humans, and the
18:01:34 <fizzie> I didn't know H. P. Lovecraft was a horned and hooved almost-human, but it does explain some things.
18:03:26 <FreeFull> All his writing was love comedies
18:03:39 <oerjan> um i thought i had already made it.
18:07:47 <oerjan> FreeFull: i read that before somewhere
18:08:38 <fizzie> There was at least a cracked.com list that mentioned a Lovecraft romantic comedy.
18:09:43 <FreeFull> http://chainsawsuit.com/tag/h-p-wuvcraft/
18:11:42 <oerjan> definitely not what i recall reading
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19:51:28 <oerjan> found on reddit a popular science article about the navier-stokes idea by terence tao that i linked the other day https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140224-a-fluid-new-path-in-grand-math-challenge/
19:52:19 <oerjan> (i consider this idea on topic for this channel hth)
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20:03:41 <HackEgo> [U+0171 LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DOUBLE ACUTE]
20:07:56 <fizzie> oerjan: The article comments weren't terribly impressive, though.
20:08:45 <oerjan> fwiw here's the reddit comments http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1ytc4i/terence_tao_proposes_fluid_new_path_in/
20:10:10 <fizzie> oerjan: They seem more sensible than the "Perhaps Tao’s computer can serve as a model of the brain which might explain the origin of mind."
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22:11:19 <int-e> AT_EMPTY_PATH (since Linux 2.6.39) ... uname -a --> 2.6.32 ... ok, I won't undelete the still-opened log file then.
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00:02:06 <int-e> ah but I should have touched the file at least. mumble :)
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02:01:23 <kmc> TIL you can authenticate to NickServ using a TLS client certificate
02:09:09 <ion> kmc: I tried that but then i switched to le insecure plaintext communications (greetings to everyone sniffing this) because my client’s upgrade feature that doesn’t drop connections can not TLS.
02:09:49 <ion> A flying squirrel was encountered on the sixth floor of a Finnish university. Photo: http://yle.fi/uutiset/todellinen_yllatys_yliopistolla__liito-orava_lensi_kuudenteen_kerrokseen/7111732
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03:00:05 <Sgeo> wat http://www.reddit.com/r/Racket/comments/1z4ira/racket_psa/
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03:25:21 <Sgeo> I don't even know why that was posted or what that has to do with anything
03:25:28 <Sgeo> I don't even know what's 'heh' about it, just... wat
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03:28:07 <elliott> echo "I don't even know why that was posted or what that has to do with anything" >wisdom/sgeo
03:28:47 <Sgeo> Did you just overwrite my wisdom?
03:30:05 <coppro> fun fact: this fact is not fun
03:30:10 <kmc> fun fact 0 = 1
03:42:41 * int-e is still upset about [1,1] being a singleton list.
03:43:11 <int-e> or is that an ocaml thing, I don't know.
03:43:42 <int-e> shachaf: it makes a tuple. In Haskell it'd be [(1,1)]
03:44:44 <int-e> And [1;1] would be a list of length 2.
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05:06:27 <Sgeo_> ”When you look at the ingredients, if you can’t spell it or pronounce it, you probably shouldn’t eat it,”
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05:06:55 <kmc> yeah! fuck science!
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05:07:04 <ion> sgeo: That’s an excellent measure.
05:07:04 <Sgeo_> Beyond the general silliness of that statement... I think many people can spell pretty much any word that they're looking at on a list of ingredients, at least while they're looking at it
05:07:30 <ion> I hear they’re putting DHMO into many products these days. :-(
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05:25:13 <newsham_> i'd rather eat food from a farmer prepared by a chef than from a geneticist prepared by a scientist.
05:25:30 <newsham_> science is good at lots of things.. but their optimization function on food is whack
05:26:18 <Sgeo_> How about food from a farmer given seeds by a geneticist?
05:26:30 <newsham_> sgeo: i'll take the non-gmo right now.
05:26:35 <newsham_> maybe in 200yrs i'll be fine with the gmo's
05:26:58 <newsham_> early adopter gets the early worms
05:27:40 <newsham_> fwiw, i'm not anti gmo, but i'm pretty anti all the companies pushing gmos down peoples throats while trying to conceal as much information as possible
05:27:54 <newsham_> they're optimizing profitability, not any useful utility function that i care about
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05:28:11 <newsham_> like flavor, or nutrition, for example
05:29:25 <oklopol> i think companies are just trying their best to make the world a better place for you and me
05:29:40 <Sgeo_> Quantity is a useful thing to attempt to maximize, and that gets accomplished at least partially, if not fully, when profit is being maximized for
05:30:01 <newsham_> sgeo: huh? how do you figure that profit and quality correlate.
05:30:17 <Bike> if you're going to complain aabout science food at least do something really bad, like factory farms
05:30:40 <oklopol> quantity and quality usually do correlate
05:30:42 <newsham_> [19:08] < Sgeo_> âWhen you look at the ingredients, if you canât spell it or pronounce it, you probably shouldnât eat it,â
05:30:49 <oklopol> (although perhaps inversely)
05:31:02 <newsham_> bike: that seems like a reasonable thing to complain about ^^^
05:31:12 <Bike> it's true, i avoid durians, but not high fructose corn syrupt
05:31:21 <newsham_> since most of the things you cant pronounce werent put there for anything other than preserving shelf life to increase profit
05:31:25 <Sgeo_> I never remember the difference between inverse and converse. Just that inverse+converse=contrapositive which iff the original statement
05:31:30 <newsham_> or to make food look artificially more appealing than it would otherwise
05:31:35 <Bike> mo like obverse, imo
05:31:55 <Sgeo_> Bike: what, the frog fractions fruit?
05:32:14 <Sgeo_> There's... an actual durain fruit
05:32:22 <newsham_> i like normal cane sugar.. why we gotta go with the HFCS is beyond me.. but.. i bet in the long run we'll find HFCS is not so bad for us, but that the impurities left aorund in manufacturing perhaps are...
05:32:44 <newsham_> at any rate, no need to rush into being an early adopter of not-well-tested chemical foods
05:32:51 <Bike> Sgeo_: lol did you seriously not know
05:33:18 <Sgeo_> I think I knew at one point then forgot
05:33:32 <kmc> Sgeo_: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg/471px-Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg
05:33:47 <Sgeo_> Durians are not fine. Good to know.
05:33:55 <copumpkin> I have some disgusting durian candy
05:34:21 <Bike> kmc: i assume the fine is infinite
05:34:50 <newsham_> i have no objection to time-tested disgusting fruit candies
05:34:57 <newsham_> as long as they have been well vetted :)
05:35:23 <newsham_> how do you tell a good durian from a bad one?
05:35:37 <newsham_> if durians go bad do they start smelling good?
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05:35:57 <Bike> they're all bad because i can't pronounce the name correctly
05:36:29 <newsham_> earle grey + durian == durian grey tea?
05:37:55 <Bike> i avoid jabuticaba in favor of nice simple niacinamide for the same reason
05:38:05 <Bike> chemistry nomenclature is, imo, so easy.
05:38:15 <Bike> but fruits are all this weird foreign shit. can't deal w/it.
05:39:27 <Bike> also, fruits are like, full of chemicals? i mean most of the time you can't even figure out their relative concentrations or they vary crazily between fruits, even from the same tree! it's insane. no way i'm gonna eat that shit.
05:39:34 <Sgeo_> http://foodbabe.com/2012/07/30/why-its-time-to-throw-out-your-microwave/
05:39:42 <Sgeo_> Is this the same person who did the Subway thing?
05:39:43 <newsham_> bike; avoiding fruits you cant pronounce also seems like a good policy
05:39:51 <newsham_> stick with what you know.. never venture outside the bubble!
05:40:10 <Bike> ok but seriously the pronunciation thing is a stupid-ass rule. i'm out of sarcasm
05:40:31 <Sgeo_> ". For the experiment pictured above, microwaved water produced a similar physical structure to when the words “satan” and “hitler” were repeatedly exposed to the water. This fact is probably too hokey for most people – but I wanted to include it because sometimes the things we can’t see with the naked eye or even fully comprehend could be the most powerful way to unlock spontaneous healing."
05:40:47 <Bike> thanks, science
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05:42:24 <oklopol> do they elaborate on "unlock spontaneous healing"
05:42:38 <Bike> nature has a lot of chemicals in it in general. did you know that salicylic acid was originally found in a tree?? trees are just handing this stuff out! kids could get at
05:43:08 <Bike> and you can't even sue trees for unsafe practices. trust me, i've tried.
05:43:16 <newsham_> bike: eating stuff from a source you dont know that contains ingredients you arent familiar sounds like a reasonable cause for suspicion and caution to me
05:43:42 <pikhq> Yep. We should be suspicious of such people.
05:43:48 <newsham_> then again i still tink its neat that theres a guy who lives off eating only raw lambs that he slaughters himself
05:43:51 <Bike> i've only eaten food i know the source of a few times, since my family's house as a cherry tree. thus, i know for a fact it is 80% coyote shit by mass.
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05:44:36 <Bike> maybe you should have investigated where you were getting them first.
05:44:37 <newsham_> is it possible to put coyote shit into other fruits?
05:44:41 <elliott> can someone offer to host the wiki so I can get out of this godforsaken channel
05:44:41 <kmc> they have that ultra expensive coffee that's shit through a civet first
05:44:48 <Bike> kopi kopi luwak
05:44:59 <Bike> that's when you do it twice.
05:45:10 <Sgeo_> What happens if I eat an apple. Is the ingredient just 'apple', which I'm familiar with, or all the things that went into it?
05:45:21 <Sgeo_> And what happens if I see 'apple' on another ingredient list?
05:45:25 <Sgeo_> How deep do I have to go?
05:45:30 <Bike> i demand coyote shit be put on all ingredients lists
05:45:45 <newsham_> sgeo: if you want to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe
05:47:10 <newsham_> hah, ghcq implements orwell's telescreens
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06:36:19 <fizzie> Garbage collection headquarters.
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06:38:08 <ion> While I agree that it is good practice to check input data in SQL queries, php stops those kinds of injections per default. https://github.com/BarrensZeppelin/ltglan/issues/1
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06:42:17 <fizzie> ion: Let me guess, the uploaded fix is going to call some mysql_escape instead of using a parametrized query?
06:42:35 <ion> fizzie: In fact it seems it was. :-D
06:43:56 <fizzie> I can't really understand why php.net's documentation on mysql_real_escape_string doesn't mention parameters.
06:44:42 <fizzie> Except in a late user-contributed note.
06:44:52 <fizzie> (Then again, this is the language with magic_quotes.)
06:45:53 <oerjan> <ion> A flying squirrel was encountered on the sixth floor of a Finnish university. Photo: http://yle.fi/uutiset/todellinen_yllatys_yliopistolla__liito-orava_lensi_kuudenteen_kerrokseen/7111732 <-- are you _sure_ that's not a pokemon
06:47:26 <oerjan> or something escaped from a manga somewhere
06:50:03 <oerjan> damn it had been so silent the last days i thought the building craftsmen outside had finished their work, but no. (admittedly a car was suspiciously present.)
06:51:06 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure craftsmen is the right word.
06:51:39 <oerjan> they've done a lot of digging, sawing and hammering, though.
06:52:07 <Jafet> ion: https://github.com/BarrensZeppelin/ltglan/commit/071e9
06:54:10 <olsner> oh, apparently it's norwegian too
06:54:34 <olsner> oerjan: the PHP software with the bugs
06:54:51 <olsner> hmm, or possibly danish
06:55:29 <olsner> not sure how to tell written danish from norwegian
06:55:43 <oerjan> i can if you paste some
06:56:04 <olsner> "Opret en bruger og log ind først. :)"
06:56:33 <oerjan> norwegian would be "Opprett en bruker og logg inn først. :)"
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07:01:29 <oerjan> olsner: i think the general trick of "does it have single consonants where you'd expect double, and voiced consonants where you expect unvoiced" works for comparing with swedish as well?
07:03:11 <olsner> dunno, I just read it and see if it's swedish or not
07:03:30 <oerjan> i was trying to give you a method here, olsner
07:05:10 <oerjan> that is, both have strange vowels to a swede, but danish has stranger consonants.
07:05:55 <oerjan> in a sense that is "soft"
07:06:13 <olsner> oh, you meant for norwegian vs danish? I was talking about swedish/other things
07:06:37 <oerjan> well that's much easier :P
07:07:43 <oerjan> just look for åäö and lots of a in the last syllable of words
07:08:20 <oerjan> vs. æøå and nearly exclusively e
07:08:40 <Jafet> TIL danish :) is norwegian :)
07:08:54 <shachaf> oerjan: why would i expect double consonants
07:08:59 <olsner> I think ck instead of kk is swedish too
07:09:29 <oerjan> shachaf: i am comparing to swedish/norwegian, so you do need to know one of those first
07:09:38 <olsner> shachaf: to indicate vowel length
07:09:48 <oerjan> olsner: yeah, also x instead of ks
07:10:44 <oerjan> shachaf: not very well, maybe for testing the other way
07:10:50 <shachaf> Taneb: is that what they speak in old york
07:11:17 <shachaf> how am i supposed to guess that
07:11:19 <oerjan> also nynorsk messes up the vowels again, the a test triggers on that too.
07:11:52 <olsner> can't you just make up your minds on that whole nynorsk/bokmål thing already?
07:14:43 <oerjan> shachaf: but perhaps vaguely, if you have a commonly inherited word of the kind where english doubles the final consonant when adding an ending, then you would be more likely to find the consonant single in danish and double in swedish/norwegian. very vaguely.
07:15:23 <oerjan> like english stop/stopping, danish stop, swedish/norwegian stopp
07:19:09 <Sgeo_> "Agda safety: we last proved false on April 18th 2012 ."
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07:21:29 <kmc> when was the last time someone proved false in coq
07:22:46 <Sgeo_> No idea. I'm mostly hoping that Agda has comprehendible tutorials
07:23:56 <oerjan> <newsham_> earle grey + durian == durian grey tea?
07:24:02 * oerjan swats newsham_ -----###
07:25:42 <oerjan> <oklopol> would you eat an omena <-- probably not, sounds omenous
07:28:52 <oerjan> google pictures reveals the secret of omena
07:30:00 <oerjan> then google translate confirms
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07:40:47 <kmc> http://meatfighter.com/nintendotetrisai/ is impressive
07:42:34 <kmc> also i like how this subroutine AC82 implements a jump table in-line with code
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07:48:14 <fizzie> "So does the PHP opcode execute PHP code?"
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08:06:41 <HackEgo> convercoin schinedcoin lerarrowwongcoin eversitcoin falecoin condocoin ardcoin braincoin dupdoorcoin glashtfoylcoin 4dihycoin mercroncoin dificoin phedcoin lamberrectorcoin cipectcoin clubitcoin hysiacoin opecoin objectrancoin
08:07:50 <fizzie> Braincoins are all in your head.
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10:52:14 <oerjan> hm i install hlint and try it on my recent Tag2ResPair.hs, and the only suggestion is something i already decided against just to drop an import.
10:52:34 <oerjan> i guess my haskell isn't so bad.
11:10:27 <Bike> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3611536 well that clears things up.
11:12:00 <Bike> that's paywalled isn't it, oh well http://pastebin.com/rNydqGG7
11:12:16 <oerjan> that was a pretty loud ad too
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12:54:41 <Bacta> How would you implement the loop construct for Brainfuck?
12:55:40 <myname> oh, last + is not even necessary
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12:55:54 <myname> i may not get the question, though
12:56:29 <Bacta> I'm writing a quick and dirty interpretter in Python :)
12:56:59 <Bacta> Basically when you have a [ you need to record it so you can jump back to it if the cell value is non-zero
12:57:12 <Bacta> Trying to think of a nice way of implementing that bit
12:57:50 <myname> push the adresse of [ on the stack
12:58:25 <myname> pop at ], jump at poped position if cell is not zero
12:58:39 <Bacta> That's exactly what I just read on Stackoverflow just now too
13:00:25 <Jafet> If your interpreter doesn't involve module re and eval, it isn't dirty
13:01:03 <HackEgo> trastrecoin backcoin bromereturniceredcoacherelairequecoin fracktrcoin catchcoin hanisorecoin cleacoin hydricucoin freimaccoin markgrassuscoin unweakcoin lord!cpucoin karacoin dingintercalambdocoin scoledcoin c-logycoin mdpncoin smahocoin infuchcoin haifausiocoin
13:02:44 <Jafet> cpucoin can only be mined by cpus
13:04:39 <Jafet> (Quiz: what distro do bitcoin miners use?)
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13:28:59 <fizzie> "bromereturniceredcoacherelairequecoin"
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13:39:59 <b_jonas> what? brome-return-ice-red-coacher-e-la-i-re-que-coin?
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13:42:06 <HackEgo> attacoin cunticoin ooederivitespringlencoin hargfcoin eviatefuccefcoin docurcoin rufacoin confimicoin emoontcoin coiucoin eviacoin goto++coin jumpcoin excelumcoin coolcoin fungecoin dcrabcoin hachcoin gemacoin miegnecoin
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13:45:19 <Jafet> Even though the sound of it is something quite too conjoin
13:53:26 <b_jonas> oo! eder vite springlen coin
13:54:55 <Jafet> Jumpcoin! Coolcoin; attacoin.
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13:55:48 <b_jonas> fungecoin probably has multiple dimensions
13:57:47 <int-e> attacoin sounds tidy.
13:58:20 <int-e> (but it might be an aggressive oin)
13:58:28 <b_jonas> here's some I got from a language model I trained to Hungarian: csúrdacoin ecoin vincssncoin surocoin acoin jajcoin tömdelcoin ídcoin megcoin acoin eecoin mothcoin nomagcoin rircoin szoúszobcoin kelyóezörgyecoin magosjántakcoin
13:58:33 <b_jonas> ogyitlamcoin boncoin opjácoin szetdicoin verkedcoin asláncoin szukbakjadsucoin fuzcoin mellbfcoin nepolorcoin dértentcoin enecoin kércoin erszecoin nakámcoin keddemcoin fuzjánbájtódcoin saraszcoin haldalcoin lagycoin rondcoin téleletcoin acoin dölbelelcoin taláncoin piszracoin bemcoin éstakcoin semcoin lelecoin holcoin vércoin szorötcoin iniscoin hermetincoin acoin agáryjecoin röspepfcoin mapnancoin közgemcoin zrcoin
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14:12:13 <fizzie> You can switch languages with `coins directly.
14:12:17 <HackEgo> coprinticoin escecoin colancilecoin rimentatocoin invecchicoin dipandogliacoin stavacoin uscollecoin pesecoin esplosecoin famentòcoin giunghicoin venereretecoin vertunacoin dubitersocoin sturbiterecoin seremmocoin rececoin tumultiacoin prosciatocoin
14:12:24 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
14:12:43 <fizzie> To any of those; the default is --eng-1M --esolangs.
14:13:14 <HackEgo> standbestecoin bergrößecoin dikanneratenkworatcoin exekulattgruppecoin maschafecoin schwencoin stersatzcoin heanfangriftcoin eingengengeleuchencoin angcoin
14:13:32 <fizzie> At least bergrößecoin sounds q. impressive.
14:14:36 <fizzie> Entgegengegangen is a German word that looks p. silly when written out in cursive.
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14:16:14 <Bacta> My god Brainfuck is slow
14:16:21 <Bacta> Or maybe it's my implementation
14:16:26 <Jafet> Is kw even a valid sound in german
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14:17:17 <Jafet> I can't find any examples, not even in loanwords like http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superkalifragilistischexpiallegetisch
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14:19:29 <fizzie> Jafet: It might have come from an abbreviation like Nkw.
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14:20:17 <b_jonas> maybe it's multiple words, like dikanner-atenk-worat-coin
14:20:29 <b_jonas> though atenk is suspicious
14:21:00 <Jafet> tenk seems like a syllable that a computer might imagine to be valid
14:21:29 <fizzie> If it's character trigrams, like I remember, it won't have that much context.
14:22:41 <fizzie> Just needs .. "ate" "ten" "enk" "nkw" "kwo" "wor" .. to exist at least once in the dictionary in order for that to be possible to generate.
14:24:25 <Jafet> Bacta is observing the classic tradeoff between implementation complexity and performance.
14:24:53 <fizzie> And both nkw and kwo do appear: http://sprunge.us/jRWe
14:26:11 <Jafet> I would imagine that most german words are compound, due to combinatorics
14:26:56 <myname> kw wouldn't make sense in german, you would write qu
14:28:13 <Bacta> Jafet: There are no optimizations I can make to this code either...
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14:30:21 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>.>++.<-.++++++++.<--.>---.>+++.<---.<---.>>>++++.<<++++++.>--.>.<.<++++++.>>.<.<<+.>.>++++.
14:30:45 <myname> brainfuck isn't slow at all
14:30:54 <Slereah> Brainfuck has no random access memory
14:31:01 <Slereah> Hence it is pretty fucking slow
14:31:11 <myname> problem is, it needs pretty many commands to achieve stuff
14:31:47 <Bacta> Hah! But there are optimizations you can perform if you want to do more analysis of the source before you interpret it
14:32:23 <myname> i wrote a brainfuck interpreter in assembly, it wasn't slow at all
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14:32:36 <Slereah__> [15:31:34] <Slereah> I wonder, are there any optimized bf compilers?
14:32:37 <Slereah__> [15:31:45] <Slereah> Like translating ++++++++++++++ into pointer + whatever
14:32:37 <Slereah__> [15:31:51] <Slereah> And such things
14:32:52 <fizzie> There are quite many optimizing bf compilers.
14:32:59 <Jafet> Pretty much every brainfuck compiler that isn't a golf entry
14:33:31 <Jafet> Another standard optimization is for loops that have no net tape movement
14:34:21 <fizzie> https://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ is one well-known optimizing compiler.
14:34:27 <Bacta> I'm assuming you can't do any parallelism given it's shared "memory"?
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14:35:54 <Jafet> Shared memory is not the problem for parallelism, the single instruction pointer is.
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14:37:48 <Jafet> If you are concerned about high performance in brainfuck, though
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14:39:47 <Slereah_> If you have parallel brainfuck on a single tape
14:39:47 <Slereah_> What happens when you have to branch!
14:39:47 <Slereah_> What if one tries to put in a 0 and the other encounters a ]
14:39:47 <Slereah_> How else will I code Crysis in Brainfuck otherwise
14:39:47 <Slereah_> I'm gonna need a pretty good Brainfuck video card
14:41:15 <b_jonas> Slereah_: try some extended brainfuck that lets you escape to native code, or a buggy brainfuck interpreter that doesn't check tape limits and lets you get control by smashing the stack or something
14:42:13 <Slereah_> The best idea would probably be not brainfuck
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14:42:42 <fizzie> That situation doesn't sound any different from plain old shared-memory parallelism you get on, you know, regular multicore computers.
14:43:04 <Jafet> What happens? MESI happens.
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14:52:00 <ais523> I had a sudden thought
14:52:09 <ais523> are brainfuck derivatives the same sort of concept as monad tutorials?
14:58:57 <Jafet> You mean, are they analogous to analogies?
15:01:49 <ais523> I meant more along the lines of "new person discovers «Haskell/esolangs», struggles for a while, thinks they understand «it/them» after some thought, writes a «monad tutorial/BF derivative»"
15:10:52 <Jafet> So a reverse shibboleth, if there is such a thing.
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18:56:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:13:07 <kmc> @ask zzo38 What do you think of the subroutine AC82 documented in http://meatfighter.com/nintendotetrisai/
19:13:47 <kmc> p. cool subroutine imo
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19:20:11 <kmc> i wonder if compilers for modern architectures ever do that
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19:28:08 <kmc> ARM has these table branch instructions (TBB / TBH) that you can use for a similar thing, by using the program counter (r15) as the table base
19:28:20 <kmc> and this is what gcc 4.6 does, according to http://gcc.godbolt.org/
19:29:32 <kmc> but even then it's only a 1 or 2 byte relative branch; for an arbitrary target you still need to branch to a branch instruction
19:32:21 <fizzie> Is there any particular benefit in sticking the jump table targets "inline", except maybe some cache locality matters for combined data/instruction ones?
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19:34:18 <kmc> you don't have to load the address of the jump table
19:35:32 <fizzie> I'd think that on x86-64 you could do just lea rX, [rip]; jmp [rX + K + 8*rY] followed by the table contents.
19:36:54 <fizzie> The call-pop construct gets criticized because it breaks the hardware-optimized return stack used for branch-predicting ret's targets.
19:37:10 <fizzie> (I assume that's not an issue on the 6502.)
19:37:17 <kmc> i suspect not :)
19:38:00 <kmc> though somebody has probably designed a superscalar OOE 6502 just for laffs
19:39:36 <kmc> `as86 lea rbx, [rip]; jmp [rbx+8*rax+4]
19:41:03 <fizzie> Oh, the rip-relative form always has a 32-bit displacement attached to it, I guess. :/
19:43:58 <fizzie> Well, you can move that 4-byte displacement into it, at least. But it's still one whopper of an instruction (pair).
19:50:13 <kmc> 7 bytes isn't that big by the standards of x86 instructions :)
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19:52:31 <miguel> hola alguna chica londa x aki
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19:54:03 <HackEgo> miguel: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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19:54:33 <`^_^v> he was just looking for a hot girl
19:54:43 <`^_^v> i dont think he cared about programming languages
19:54:58 <oerjan> indeed. `bienvenido is so efficient.
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19:57:06 * oerjan briefly wonders if oteric means something suspicious in es-pañol, but google doesn't know about it
19:57:21 <oerjan> including with -o/a appended
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19:59:05 <kmc> what is the "x" meant to stand for in that sentence
19:59:51 <oerjan> was wondering about that too. i was guessing "exista" or thereabouts
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20:00:27 <kmc> that's a stretch for "equis"
20:00:34 <`^_^v> x is slang for por
20:00:37 <kmc> but I'm not a spanish speaking 14 year old in search of a chica linda
20:01:20 <oerjan> well he said "aki" so obviously he doesn't care about spelling
20:01:44 <`^_^v> because x is like multiplication and 2 x 2 is pronounced dos por dos
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20:01:50 <oerjan> i don't exactly know spanish chatting slang
20:02:09 <`^_^v> i only know from video game servers
20:02:20 <oerjan> um what's equis supposed to mean
20:02:30 <`^_^v> spanish people really like ragnarok online
20:03:39 <Slereah_> How can I fuck around in x86-64
20:03:39 <kmc> oerjan: spanish name for the letter "x"
20:03:49 <kmc> Slereah_: how do you mean
20:03:56 <Slereah_> Like a virtual machine that boots on some program in x86-64 that I write
20:04:10 <kmc> Slereah_: you want to run code without an OS?
20:04:19 <kmc> it's... complicated
20:04:28 <kmc> i'm gonna dump some links at you
20:04:40 <Slereah_> Or at least a non-obtrusive OS
20:05:07 <elliott> be careful what you wish for
20:05:18 <kmc> http://wiki.osdev.org/Main_Page http://www.returninfinity.com/pure64.html http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2012/
20:05:44 <elliott> I guess http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Accts/TS/Wb2/TempleOS.html is the slightly less useful link now
20:06:02 <kmc> Slereah_: what means "obtrusive"? you can write x86-64 assembly for Linux pretty easily, and it's much less work to make something cool than doing it on "bare metal"
20:06:06 <Slereah_> I do like coding in x86, but I do want to try out some x64 too
20:06:35 <Slereah_> For a start it has more bloody registers.
20:06:44 <Slereah_> kmc : Doesn't the OS block a bunch of things?
20:07:02 <kmc> in some sense an OS is the opposite of obtrusive... it provides the illusion of a machine much simpler and more capable than the "real thing"
20:07:05 <kmc> Slereah_: like what?
20:07:20 <Slereah_> Access to ports, parts of the memory, self modifying code
20:09:08 <kmc> you can usually opt into self-modifying code
20:09:21 <kmc> (it's disabled by default for security reasons)
20:09:23 <fizzie> Direct access to hardware, yes (for some values of), but that's only a problem if you really fancy writing drivers.
20:09:59 <kmc> you will find that things are fantastically complicated and it will be an extreme amount of effort to make anything work at all
20:10:09 <kmc> I don't mean to discourage you but you should know what you're getting into
20:10:19 <Slereah_> Well I am already coding things in x86
20:10:33 <kmc> the "platform" is far more complex than the instruction set itself
20:10:47 <kmc> an OS hides that complexity and gives you a simple more friendly platform
20:10:51 <elliott> simple osdev isn't really that difficult, just very tedious and annoying
20:11:25 <Slereah_> I just kinda like trying to do things from the ground up
20:11:48 <Bike> http://davidad.github.io/blog/2014/02/18/kernel-from-scratch/ Slereah_
20:11:52 <kmc> Slereah_: get to the silicon mines then ;)
20:12:23 <Bike> silicone and silicon are not the same ._.
20:12:26 <kmc> Bike: nice
20:12:46 <Slereah_> In French, silicone is silicone
20:12:54 <Bike> is here where i mention that the Czochralski process is really cool
20:13:00 <kmc> one problem is that the BIOS (which is basically an OS/library in ROM) becomes much harder to access once you leave real mode
20:13:15 <kmc> which makes doing any kind of I/O a lot harder
20:13:21 <Slereah_> Although I wouldn't mind building my own little computer, I don't think I could build much
20:13:21 <Bike> "aren't you sposed to use UEFI now"
20:13:44 <kmc> Slereah_: you might like those MIT courses 6.828 and 6.004
20:13:53 <kmc> in the former you write large parts of a kernel
20:13:58 <Slereah_> What kind of computer can you build from off the shelf electronic components?
20:14:00 <kmc> in the latter you design a processor at the logic gate level and then optimize it
20:14:17 <Slereah_> They're way too fucking big to do much with
20:14:47 <Slereah_> Maybe I could make a tiny Brainfuck computer
20:14:53 <Bike> You can get computers from shelves.
20:14:56 <kmc> you can find many projects online of people building computers from discrete logic chips
20:15:02 <kmc> they are usually simple 8-bit things
20:15:13 <kmc> but you can make a "real CPU" with arithmetic, branching, etc.
20:15:39 <kmc> I heard somebody actually breadboarded the 6.004 processor at one point
20:15:53 <kmc> which is like a 32-bit version of the Alpha (simplified further I'm sure)
20:15:55 <Slereah_> Is that a torture method where they drown you in dough?
20:16:54 <Bike> why was my first thought on hwo to explain breadboards 'well, imagine a cribbage board, and'
20:16:57 <kmc> anyway I strongly recommend learning x86-64 assembly in friendly userspace before you try to write an OS
20:17:08 <kmc> also you might want to write most of the OS in a higher level language anyway
20:18:01 <Slereah_> Also yeah I guess I might want to just write some stuff in C and then half-compile it and look at the assembly file
20:18:17 <fizzie> If you're writing without one, whatever you write is arguably an OS.
20:18:23 <kmc> Slereah_: have you seen http://gcc.godbolt.org/
20:18:49 <Slereah_> Well I don't plan to do any threads or file management or spinning skulls
20:19:01 <kmc> if you don't have any spinning skulls then what's even the point?
20:19:16 <Bike> clearly you should write an OS designed for GPUs
20:19:22 <kmc> be sure to try the "Colourise" button
20:20:04 <Slereah_> http://www.gifmix.net/gif.php?image=skull-gifs/TOTENKOPF047.GIF
20:20:19 <Slereah_> http://www.mytinyphone.com/uploads/users/cacique/101455.gif
20:26:05 <FireFly> <Slereah_> And silicone is silicium
20:26:07 <fizzie> Yes, the web is certainly worse off now that every page doesn't have a http://www.jadefrolics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/under-construction-sign-animated1.gif in it.
20:26:33 <FireFly> The whole silicon/e thing in english took me a while to understand
20:26:53 <fizzie> "kisel (plural kisels): A dessert, an acidulated jelly, made by cooking fruit or berry juice, milk or water, and flour, common in Slavic and Baltic countries as well as Finland."
20:26:58 <Slereah_> fizzie : Also the little gif of a letter going into an enveloppe and into a mailbox
20:28:03 <fizzie> Silicon is, for whatever reason, "pii" in Finnish.
20:29:12 <Bike> Looks like the etymology of "silicone" is dumb. It's a siloxane, not a ketone...
20:29:42 <Slereah_> Well crystal doesn't have a crystaline structure!
20:30:42 <Slereah_> And neutrinos aren't small neutrons!
20:31:41 <Bike> They are small and neutral, though.
20:39:03 <fizzie> As far as I can figure out, the etymology for the Finnish "pii" for silicon comes from the fact that "pii" had a (now no longer used) meaning of 'tooth' or any sort of spike in a tool, so a type of flint useful for toolmaking got called "piikivi" ("kivi" being rock/stone), and those contain silicon compounds.
20:40:06 <Slereah_> da piikivi being of course an anagram of wikipedia
20:41:06 <fizzie> There's a "Finnish version" of Uncyclopedia called Hikipedia (lit. "Sweat-pedia").
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20:43:41 <Bike> 'Sir Humphry Davy proposed the name "silicium" for silicon, from the Latin silex, silicis for flint, flints, and adding the "-ium" ending because he believed it was a metal' argh
20:43:47 <Bike> well, whatever, it's not as bad as hydrogen.
20:44:33 <fizzie> Bike: Metals, metalloids, who cares.
20:44:59 <Slereah_> also I'm pretty sure back in the days, "metal" had a different definition
20:45:24 <Slereah_> "The meaning of "metal" differs for various communities. For example, astronomers use the blanket term "metal" for convenience to collectively describe all elements other than hydrogen and helium "
20:47:56 <Slereah_> And of course, diamond is the hardest metal
20:48:53 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SiliconCroda.jpg to be fair, that does look p. metal.
20:49:50 <Bike> really i'm more annoyed at silicone. chemist really ought to not just name something as a ketone because it's vaguely analogous to a ketone
20:50:38 <Slereah_> Systematic names in chemistry is a pretty recent thing anyway
20:51:44 <oerjan> `addquote <Slereah_> And neutrinos aren't small neutrons! <Bike> They are small and neutral, though. <Slereah_> So is Switzerland
20:51:46 <HackEgo> 1171) <Slereah_> And neutrinos aren't small neutrons! <Bike> They are small and neutral, though. <Slereah_> So is Switzerland
20:52:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Also known as "Switzerino".
20:52:39 <Bike> he named it after benzophenone. that's not IUPAC systematic but it's still proto-system.
20:52:40 <fizzie> (Actually, that sounds like a derogatory term.)
20:55:32 <oerjan> iirc metal is from the greek for mine
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21:11:53 <nortti> seems like it https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AD%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
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22:07:49 <kmc> you know what's bad? that gasoline is called "benzene" or "naptha" in some countries/languages
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22:13:23 <ais523> happy Australian mailman mailing list reminders day!
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22:16:12 <ais523> the "<ais523> happy Australian mailman mailing list reminders day!" thing?
22:16:36 <ais523> it's a joke #esoteric tradition; the mailing list server software Mailman send out reminders on the first of every month
22:16:38 <Bike> kmc: what? whyyyy
22:16:45 <ais523> and several of us are subscribed to Mailman mailing lists hosted in Australia
22:16:55 <ais523> so the reminders come out on the last of every month instead
22:17:12 <Bike> is that actually the active component there? i thought in us gasoline at least it was octane
22:18:15 <ais523> I think octane's the largest component of most gasoline/petrol
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22:48:15 <coppro> man, is it mailman day already?
22:48:39 <newsham_> mine is the TUHS mailing list (also .au)
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22:55:15 <fizzie> Bike: It's "bensiini"/"bensa" in Finnish, and yes, it's probably not a good name.
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22:58:51 <fizzie> "Etymology: From Swedish /bensin/, from German /Benzin/, from benzoe + -in." So it's not our fault!
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23:40:01 <scarf> Freenode's having fun today, I see :-)
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